From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 1 00:25:03 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:49 2005 Subject: What ever happened to Hal Hardenbergh? In-Reply-To: <988690062.3aee368e140e7@email.ou.edu> References: <007601c0d1d2$40728c00$16db3fd0@DOMAIN> <007601c0d1d2$40728c00$16db3fd0@DOMAIN> Message-ID: I've been snooping around a bit looking at various people active with the Apple II and 68000 accelerators for it, and it got me to wondering whatever happened to Hal Hardenbergh? Casual searching turns up no usenet posting later than 1997, and one Hal Hardenbergh is listed in the white pages of Alabama. It occurs to me that with as much effort we put into saving old computers, we also need to keep on top of what happens to all of the computer pioneers. From at258 at osfn.org Tue May 1 03:14:08 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:53 2005 Subject: Anyone read.... In-Reply-To: <988690062.3aee368e140e7@email.ou.edu> Message-ID: I skimmed the book but though it a bit pricey. I think I'll wait for it to be remaindered. Apparently the thrust of the book is that a large quanitity of card sorting and accounting machines were purchased from IBM's German subsidiary (Dehomag?) and directly. The equipment was used initially for census purposes, and this data was used as a basis for tracking Jewish families and interests. On Mon, 30 Apr 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > Quoting Mike : > > "IBM and the Holocaust: The Strategic Alliance between Nazi > > Germany and America's Most Powerful Corporation" by Edwin Black, > > Crown > > I saw it at the local Hastings, but also didn't have the money to > pick it up. I will read it this summer, though. I suspect it will > try to shock me by detailing how IBM had sold technology of some > kind to Germany before US involvement in World War II. While such > a practice seems shocking today, it probably wasn't such a big deal > back then. Correct me if my history is wrong, but it seems to me > that Germany would have in fact been the best potential customer, > being one country that made decent progress towards getting out of > the depression that was widespread in Europe at the time. Also, > this was before we all figured out that Naziism was a Bad Thing, > right? > > Can anyone tell us what the book says? > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@ou.edu > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From broth at heathers.stdio.com Tue May 1 04:35:35 2001 From: broth at heathers.stdio.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:53 2005 Subject: Anyone read.... In-Reply-To: <002d01c0d1f9$4d0e0440$7499b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> References: <988690062.3aee368e140e7@email.ou.edu> <002d01c0d1f9$4d0e0440$7499b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <01050105381500.00795@fatty> I found it at my local library. It wasn't under the technology section though. It was listed with other holocoust books. Haven't read it and probably will not. Brian. > There's a number of reviews at the Amazon site. > Reading them will give you a pretty good idea of what > it's about. -- Brian Roth - System Administrator www.webwirz.com - Old Computer Repository Preoccupation is my main occupation..... From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Tue May 1 07:20:57 2001 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:53 2005 Subject: Finds... (mainly Heathkit 3400) Message-ID: >I have been looking for a Heathkit 3400 Microprocessor trainer for *years* >and there was one there -- 6808 uP (6800 w/internal timer, same instruction >set), 512 bytes RAM (a pair of 2114's - amazingly, they still work), 1K >ROM, and (6) 7-segment LED's for primary program output... I have three (well, two working, one for spares), and they are nice litle units. One has the 2114 RAM, and another has the 2112. Also different processors (6800 vs. 6808). >I also got Heathkit digital trainer (3100, methinks ?) That's a nice unit as well. Basic, but provides a lot of the "standard" functionality you need when working w/ TTL. >$3.00USD each. *Whoof* MUCH less than I paid! >Anywho, I (unforch) didn't get any dox with the trainer I have a hardcopy of the 3100 manual I could photocopy for you, and I have the entire 3400 manual (except schematics) scanned in the PaperPort format (Windows viewer available, don't know about other platforms). I could send you a CD with the files, or I could print a copy and send it along... No charge either way... email me off-list, and we can work out the details (mailing address, etc.) Rich B. From RCini at congressfinancial.com Tue May 1 08:12:45 2001 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:53 2005 Subject: TrackStar E update Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E58798A2@MAIL10> Hello, all: Well, I've got the TrackStar working well now. I've also put up a simple Web page on my site (http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ to discuss the TS. I was able to get my hands on a PDF scan of the manual, which I will be posting shortly. The manual isn't the best written manual in the world, but it's better than nothing. The same guy also sent me a few working APP images that have some useful utilities on them, including CopyII. I don't think that the disk copying utility included with the TS works properly (it supposedly does a track-by-track copy). The only way I've been able to get a new image to work is to create a blank APP (image) file and initialize it from within Apple DOS. Then, I used COPYA to copy files from an Apple disk to the APP image file. No other way seems to work. Now I have to get the ProDOS volumes working, as well as the Apple+ compatibility mode. It needs an Apple II+ ROM file, which I have, but I don't know what to name it or where it goes. The TS manual only mentions it in brief. I also ran the utilities STAR.COM, STAR.SYS, and TSUTILIT.COM through Sourcer, but I haven't read the listings in any great detail. It seems that the TS listens on a few odd port numbers (6969h, 6967h, etc.). It would help if I had a schematic... Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) From foxvideo at wincom.net Tue May 1 08:57:13 2001 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:53 2005 Subject: Finds... (mainly Heathkit 3400) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20010430203558.016f5220@mail.30below.com> References: <988560205.3aec3b4dbae32@email.ou.edu> <4.3.2.7.0.20010426105658.01e00620@pc> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010501095332.00a67b80@mail.wincom.net> At 08:35 PM 30/04/2001 -0400, you wrote: >Whoodoggie! Did I finally get a find, or what? > >I have been looking for a Heathkit 3400 Microprocessor trainer for *years* >and there was one there -- 6808 uP (6800 w/internal timer, same instruction >set), 512 bytes RAM (a pair of 2114's - amazingly, they still work), 1K >ROM, and (6) 7-segment LED's for primary program output... > >*and it works!* [1] > >I also got Heathkit digital trainer (3100, methinks?) and an HP trainer >(with probe, extra display, etc.) Don't remember the # on that - I'll check >it out more when I get home... > >$3.00USD each. > >Also, a *lot* of HeathKit Continuing Education series books (Most, if not >all, still with Exam Papers) so that's some fun readin'... > >Anywho, I (unforch) didn't get any dox with the trainer (not that it's >rocket science or anything...) but there's precious little info on the 'Net >(amazingly) so I don't know where the I/O memory mapping is for the LED's & >whatnot... Anyone out there have any info? (Just a basic memory map would >be great!) > >Thanks, >Roger "Merch" Merchberger >-- >Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers >Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. > >If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead >disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. Hi, Roger: I have the manual and the course literature for the 3400. Let me know what you need and I will try to scan it and e-mail it to you. Cheers Charlie Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor ON N8Y 3J8 foxvideo@wincom.net Check out: Camcorder Kindergarten at http://chasfoxvideo.com From vaxman at qwest.net Tue May 1 10:10:28 2001 From: vaxman at qwest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:53 2005 Subject: Anyone read.... In-Reply-To: <988690062.3aee368e140e7@email.ou.edu> Message-ID: IIRC my high-school history correctly, noone outside of Germany had any idea of the magnitude of Hilter's racial purification policies. It wasn't until the allies marched into the concentration camps and discovered piles of bones instead of cheering prisoners that the truth came out. Then, anyone who had done business with Germany couldn't make their associations publically know without risk of retaliation. clint On Mon, 30 Apr 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > Quoting Mike : > > "IBM and the Holocaust: The Strategic Alliance between Nazi > > Germany and America's Most Powerful Corporation" by Edwin Black, > > Crown > > I saw it at the local Hastings, but also didn't have the money to > pick it up. I will read it this summer, though. I suspect it will > try to shock me by detailing how IBM had sold technology of some > kind to Germany before US involvement in World War II. While such > a practice seems shocking today, it probably wasn't such a big deal > back then. Correct me if my history is wrong, but it seems to me > that Germany would have in fact been the best potential customer, > being one country that made decent progress towards getting out of > the depression that was widespread in Europe at the time. Also, > this was before we all figured out that Naziism was a Bad Thing, > right? > > Can anyone tell us what the book says? > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@ou.edu > > From tony.eros at machm.org Tue May 1 11:14:02 2001 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:53 2005 Subject: Anyone read.... In-Reply-To: References: <007601c0d1d2$40728c00$16db3fd0@DOMAIN> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010501121000.00a890a8@mail.njd.concentric.com> Straying off topic... Actually, you could argue that du Pont was the most powerful corporation in the US in the 40's and 50's. They owned 25% of GM (which they later had to sell in an antitrust case) and was reputed to have held enormous influence on the GM board of directors. -- Tony At 09:32 PM 4/30/2001 -0500, you wrote: >On Mon, 30 Apr 2001, Mike wrote: > > > I rambled into: > > > > "IBM and the Holocaust: The Strategic Alliance between Nazi Germany and > > America's Most Powerful Corporation" by Edwin Black, Crown > >Wouldn't General Motors have been America's most powerful corporation at >the time? > > > at Books-a-Billion but didn't have the $24 bucks to walk away with it... > > Amazon.com has an excerpt from it. Anyone read it? > >Not yet, but I plan on reading it once I get a copy. > >-brian. From oliv555 at arrl.net Tue May 1 11:42:02 2001 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (no) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:57 2005 Subject: Storageworks SBB Cases References: <200104301824.f3UIODO03795@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <3AEEE75A.519A2C57@arrl.net> Eric Dittman wrote: > > my Tru64 system now. I also have a VS4000-60 running. The > two VS3100 systems are kept around just-in-case, and I have > a MVII which I'm mentioned is in line for a PDP-11 transplant > as soon as I find a CPU and memory. > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > I'm trying to do the opposite, turn an extra mPDP11/BA23 into a MVII. Would you be interesting in swapping your MVII faceplate assy for my MicroPDP11 faceplate assy (assuming we are both talking BA23 of course) nick oliviero From stanb at dial.pipex.com Tue May 1 03:00:23 2001 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:57 2005 Subject: Anyone read.... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 30 Apr 2001 23:07:42 CDT." <988690062.3aee368e140e7@email.ou.edu> Message-ID: <200105010800.JAA13502@citadel.metropolis.local> HI, "Jeffrey S. Sharp" said: > Quoting Mike : > > "IBM and the Holocaust: The Strategic Alliance between Nazi > > Germany and America's Most Powerful Corporation" by Edwin Black, > > Crown > > I saw it at the local Hastings, but also didn't have the money to > pick it up. I will read it this summer, though. I suspect it will > try to shock me by detailing how IBM had sold technology of some > kind to Germany before US involvement in World War II. While such > a practice seems shocking today, it probably wasn't such a big deal > back then. Correct me if my history is wrong, but it seems to me > that Germany would have in fact been the best potential customer, > being one country that made decent progress towards getting out of > the depression that was widespread in Europe at the time. Also, > this was before we all figured out that Naziism was a Bad Thing, > right? > Right...a great many American, British and French businesses dealt with Nazi Germany right up until the war started. In fact some British firms had to bring their staff home through the advancing German army! (Before the war proper started, I must add...) American firms dealt with Germany (quite legititamtely, being a neutral country) up until Pearl Harbor. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 1 12:03:47 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:57 2005 Subject: Was someone asking about DIBOL? Message-ID: I seem to recall someone asking about obtaining DIBOL for their VMS system recently. As of yesterday the Freeware V5.0 CD-ROM is online, and in looking through it I spotted the DIBOL distro. Looks like an excellent CD-ROM, and I just might have to break down and get it, it's mostly stuff that wasn't on the V4.0 CD-ROM, and I think there is a lot more stuff on there. http://www.openvms.compaq.com/freeware/ Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 1 12:09:21 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:57 2005 Subject: Interesting Book: "The Digital Dictionary" Message-ID: Yesterday I finally got a couple books I'd gotten on eBay a couple weeks ago, obviously "VAXcluster Principles" is an interesting book, but I was surprised how good of a book "The Digital Dictionary" is. I got the 2nd Edition (the first was mainly internal use). It's a dictionary of all the different terms that were in use around 1986. As such it contains info on the PDP-10, PDP-11, and VAX, as well as DECmate's, Rainbows, and Professionals. As well as the Apps, Languages, and OS's. Great book if you want to know what a specific term or acronym means. Well worth picking up if you are in to DEC stuff and can find a copy! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jbmcb at hotmail.com Tue May 1 12:15:28 2001 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:57 2005 Subject: Anyone read.... (SemiOT) References: Message-ID: Lots of U.S. companies had dealings with Germany before WWII, all trade ceased when America entered the war, of course. That and the U-Boats sinking most trade vessils destined to Europe. Haven't read the book yet, but I'm sure they left out how IBM also built machines for the U.S. war effort, used to crack encryption codes and whatnot. Krupps made the ovens that were used to dispose of the bodies in the concentration camps. Now they make coffee makers. Life goes on despite stupidity. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clint Wolff (VAX collector)" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 11:10 AM Subject: Re: Anyone read.... > > IIRC my high-school history correctly, noone outside of Germany had > any idea of the magnitude of Hilter's racial purification policies. > It wasn't until the allies marched into the concentration camps and > discovered piles of bones instead of cheering prisoners that the > truth came out. > > Then, anyone who had done business with Germany couldn't make their > associations publically know without risk of retaliation. > > clint > > > On Mon, 30 Apr 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > > Quoting Mike : > > > "IBM and the Holocaust: The Strategic Alliance between Nazi > > > Germany and America's Most Powerful Corporation" by Edwin Black, > > > Crown > > > > I saw it at the local Hastings, but also didn't have the money to > > pick it up. I will read it this summer, though. I suspect it will > > try to shock me by detailing how IBM had sold technology of some > > kind to Germany before US involvement in World War II. While such > > a practice seems shocking today, it probably wasn't such a big deal > > back then. Correct me if my history is wrong, but it seems to me > > that Germany would have in fact been the best potential customer, > > being one country that made decent progress towards getting out of > > the depression that was widespread in Europe at the time. Also, > > this was before we all figured out that Naziism was a Bad Thing, > > right? > > > > Can anyone tell us what the book says? > > > > -- > > Jeffrey S. Sharp > > jss@ou.edu > > > > > > From dittman at dittman.net Tue May 1 12:43:13 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:57 2005 Subject: Storageworks SBB Cases In-Reply-To: <3AEEE75A.519A2C57@arrl.net> from "no" at May 01, 2001 11:42:02 AM Message-ID: <200105011743.f41HhE308188@narnia.int.dittman.net> > I'm trying to do the opposite, turn an extra mPDP11/BA23 into > a MVII. Would you be interesting in swapping your MVII faceplate > assy for my MicroPDP11 faceplate assy (assuming we are both > talking BA23 of course) Do you want to swap just the faceplate, or the faceplate, CPU, memory, and CPU cab. kit? -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From dittman at dittman.net Tue May 1 12:54:50 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:57 2005 Subject: Storageworks SBB Cases In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Apr 30, 2001 12:35:52 PM Message-ID: <200105011754.f41Hsoi08229@narnia.int.dittman.net> > >> Now how on earth are you getting a FWD card to work in PWS500au's, or maybe > >> I should ask which card? That's a KZPSA isn't it? I tried the KZPSA I > >> just got in my PWS433au, and it wouldn't boot, as it complained about an > >> unrecognized card. > > > >I'm using KZPSA cards. > > OK, that's wierd, looks like I'll have to do some inquiring on comp.os.vms. I did not have to do anything special with my KZPSA cards (except switch one to ID 6 so I could SCSI cluster the systems). > >I've got an ISP1040A built-in as well > >on one of the PWS systems and an Intraserver U2W/Ethernet card > >in the other. The Intraserver is a leftover from when I was > >using a PC164LX system. I'm going to replace the board set > >in the other system with a set that includes the ISP1040A. > >At that point I'll remove the Intraserver card. That's > >another reason I want to find a couple of empty 5.25" SBB > >cases; I want to avoid trying to use the built-in ISP1040A > >controllers with external devices (which is not supported > >but may work). > > You're going to remove the Intraserver card?!?!?! If it was me I'd be > putting a couple decent sized U2W SCSI disks on that sucker, instead of > messing around with UW or worse SCSI disks! I'd really like to add an > Intraserver card with a 3rd party tower of Ultra160 disks, that's my > long-term plan. The Intraserver card has a bug with systems with a Pyxis chipset that requires a special patched driver. So my long-term plan is to buy a DS10 and use the Intraserver card there. > BTW, it sounds like your ISP1040A is on the Motherboard itself? My > controller is a PCI card, while running Narrow SCSI devices off the > connector on the board isn't supported, it works. You can plug your UW > SCSI disks to the 68-pin connector, and Narrow to the 50-pin connector. The ISP1040A is on the slot board. There were two different revisions (that I know of) of the PWS-au systems. One has the Intel I/O chipset on the mainboard, no SCSI on the slot board, and no USB ports. The other has a Cypress I/O chipset on the mainboard, ISP1040A SCSI on the slot board, and two USB ports. You can't mix-and-match the mainboards and the slot boards, either (I tried, it didn't work, confirmed on c.o.v). I will need to keep a SCSI CDROM on a different controller if I can't find an SBB case, and the DLT on one of the systems. > What are you using for Graphics Cards? I've got an Elsa Gloria in my > PWS433au, and it totally sucks. I get definite ripple on the left side > when scrolling web pages in Netscape, and some problems when doing other > things. Right now I am using a VT525 with a 19" monitor. I was using an Else Gloria, but the speed was bad enough that I just decided to do any DECwindows stuff using my Linux system as the display. I did buy an Oxygen VX1 PCI, but the current driver doesn't work right with pre- 21264 CPUs. The card will display, but the system is so slow it takes five minutes to log in to the console to kill the DECwindows server. > >From what I've read the big difference between the DLTx000 drives and > >the equivalent TZ8x drives is the TZ8x drives will read TK50/TK70 tapes, > >but I haven't tried yet. I suppose one could try to write the TZ8x > >firmware in the DLTx000 drives, but I'd rather just buy a cheap TK70 > >off eBay than risk destroying my DLT4000. > > That's the difference, however, as far as I know, it's not a firmware > issue, it's a calibration issue. I'm not worried about reading TK70's > really, but it would be nice to be able to read TK50's, still I've a TZ30 > for that. Well, I definitely will not attempt any calibration changes on my DLT drive just to be able to read tapes a used $50 drive will read. > >The AS200 4/233 was my first Alpha (my wife bought it for me > >to replace my VS3100, which I still have). I followed that > >with a couple of PC164 motherboards, then a PC164SX (which > >can't run VMS, so I used it for Digital Unix until I sold > >it), followed by a PC164LX, followed by three PWS500au systems > >(one of which has a ruined case but was bought as it had a > >2MB cache module). I have someone digging up a replacement > >case, and I'm on the lookout for two more 2MB (or 4MB if > >I get lucky) cache modules. The PWS500au systems displaced > >the PC164 and PC164LX systems for VMS, so the PC164LX is > >my Tru64 system now. I also have a VS4000-60 running. The > >two VS3100 systems are kept around just-in-case, and I have > >a MVII which I'm mentioned is in line for a PDP-11 transplant > >as soon as I find a CPU and memory. > > Sounds like as bad of a menagerie as I've got around here, though instead > of the PC164 stuff I've got a DEC3000/300LX and the AlphaStation 500/333. > I just unlobotomized and increased the PDP-11/73 I've got in a MVII BA123 > Chassis, I got a quad-hieght /73 board for it in place of the dual-hieght > /73 I'd been using and some other stuff. It's *SO* nice finally running > with a full blown board, and having the console at 38,400 instead of 9600! Are you willing to sell the old /73 board? I'd rather have a slow /73 than none at all. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From foo at siconic.com Tue May 1 12:24:57 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:57 2005 Subject: Repair techniques ... I/O pins and power supplies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Apr 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > It's a pity neither of us has it.... Anyone else got said docs? I probably do but am currently indisposed in an internet cafe in Munich :) And even if I were at home, I wouldn't know where they might be hiding in my collection, but that is changing as I have been in the process of cataloguing things for several months now and will be able to actually pull this stuff up on demand at some point. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Tue May 1 12:34:40 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:57 2005 Subject: Amiga items on eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Apr 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > >There's nothing wrong, when selling something, with wanting to be paid > >what it is worth. Since the 'worth' of something can be effectively > > I find it distastefull to sell in this fashion to your friends, and that is > how I see the people on this list. Seconded. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Tue May 1 12:45:25 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:57 2005 Subject: Adaptec PDP-8e In-Reply-To: <01042815271103.01063@fatty> Message-ID: On Sat, 28 Apr 2001, Brian Roth wrote: > Take it easy. READ the post. Its a JOKE. Tongue in cheek, etc. I > can't beleive how many people took this as a real ad. Its NOT my > machine. I was just making light of the fact of the owners lack of > knowledge on what he was selling, thats all.... My apologies. Didn't get a chance to sense the sarcasm in it as I was speeding thru CC messages at an internet cafe with only limited time. :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 1 12:55:18 2001 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:57 2005 Subject: Archaeology Article In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 25 April 2001, John Keys wrote: > Picked the issue at the news stand today that had the 2 page article > on classic computers staring our own Sellam Ismail. It was fun > reading and now I have to see this former car plant that serves as > your warehouse. I have to get me rich uncle so that I can get that > kind of space. Articles like this are great for our collecting efforts > as more and more people learn about they seek us out to donate their > old computers. Keep up the good work. The old space is no longer, as I've been moving the collection to a new warehouse up the street. The old car plant is set to be demolished in a few weeks. Sad but true. The good news is the new space is free :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From sieler at allegro.com Tue May 1 14:55:41 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:57 2005 Subject: Free: HP 9000/350 & monitor (working) Message-ID: <200105011955.MAA14822@opus.allegro.com> Hi, If anyone wants a working HP 9000/350 & color monitor, please let me know. It runs HP-UX 8.0 (IIRC), and X-Windows. It's in Cupertino, CA, and time is of the essence. (I'd prefer to keep back the HP-IB disk drive, or swap it for a somewhat similar HP disk drive, if possible.) thanks, -- Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.sieler.com From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net Tue May 1 14:58:03 2001 From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (FBA) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:57 2005 Subject: Archaeology Article Message-ID: <003e01c0d279$09d78950$8534d986@pq_computername.beckman.com> What kind of pact with the devil did you sign to get FREE space in California??? Would that work in Minnesota? Francois >The good news is the new space is free :) > >Sellam Ismail From ssmith at wizardcomp.com Tue May 1 15:29:16 2001 From: ssmith at wizardcomp.com (Stuart E. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:57 2005 Subject: Unknown IBM thingy whatsit Message-ID: We need a whole unit or parts of an IBM 3742 OR 3741. Do you know where we can find one. Stu Smith 410-290-9076 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 1 14:58:51 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:57 2005 Subject: Finds... (mainly Heathkit 3400) In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at Apr 30, 1 11:35:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 539 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010501/f154211a/attachment.ksh From ss at allegro.com Tue May 1 16:37:12 2001 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:57 2005 Subject: Finds... (mainly Heathkit 3400) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3AEECA18.11486.192C43F7@localhost> Hi, > the entire 3400 manual (except schematics) scanned in the PaperPort format > (Windows viewer available, don't know about other platforms). I could send > you a CD with the files, or I could print a copy and send it along... No I'd be interested in such a CD...I also have a 3400. Any interest in a R.B. Annis Company Demagnetizer? (About 30 pounds in weight :) thanks, Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From bromwich at bromwich.screaming.net Tue May 1 16:46:40 2001 From: bromwich at bromwich.screaming.net (Jo and Terry Bromwich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:57 2005 Subject: Info on DX11-B and other bits Message-ID: <000401c0d288$4206c8e0$bf8c403e@default> I was searching for PDP11 stuff in an idle moment and came on the DX11-B thread. We still use them in my company (probably a PR faux pas to tell you what we do!) for 370 channel to PDP transfer. I have access to complete print sets and most of the knowledge you need if anyone has a specific question, or just wants to know what the hell it does. I may be able to provide a bit of input for DZS11, DRS11 and DR11, PDP11/45, 34 and 34A as well, if you ask the right (i.e. easy) questions! Before anyone gets too excited about the 10(!) DX11-B's that we still have, we will be using them for a couple of years yet! :-) Regards, Terry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010501/c0f9f2d8/attachment.html From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 1 17:52:36 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:57 2005 Subject: Storageworks SBB Cases In-Reply-To: <200105011754.f41Hsoi08229@narnia.int.dittman.net> from "Eric Dittman" at May 01, 2001 12:54:50 PM Message-ID: <200105012252.PAA02180@shell1.aracnet.com> > I did not have to do anything special with my KZPSA cards (except > switch one to ID 6 so I could SCSI cluster the systems). Odd. Do you happen to know what version of the firmware you're running? Is it the lastest, or an old version. It looks like my problem is the version of PWS firmware I've got. > The Intraserver card has a bug with systems with a Pyxis chipset > that requires a special patched driver. So my long-term plan is to > buy a DS10 and use the Intraserver card there. Ah. :^( Well, I'm glad to find that out before going out and spending $300 for the card. > Right now I am using a VT525 with a 19" monitor. I was using an Else > Gloria, but the speed was bad enough that I just decided to do any > DECwindows stuff using my Linux system as the display. I did buy an > Oxygen VX1 PCI, but the current driver doesn't work right with pre- > 21264 CPUs. The card will display, but the system is so slow it > takes five minutes to log in to the console to kill the DECwindows > server. Sounds about like me, though I've currently still got the Elsa Gloria in the machine, but am using my Mac as the display. I've tried a ZLXp-L1 and it refuses to boot as it has an unknown device in it. That sucks about the Oxygen card, I'd been considering that one. Any idea how well the Oxygen card would work in a DS10? Be nice if DS10's would start hitting the used market :^) > Are you willing to sell the old /73 board? I'd rather have a slow /73 > than none at all. I'm afriad you missed my point. That and some other stuff were part of a deal that got me the Quad-Hieght /73 CPU. Zane From optimus at canit.se Tue May 1 16:43:17 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:57 2005 Subject: MicroVAX 3100 booting question... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1440.521T850T13634619optimus@canit.se> Brian Chase skrev: >On 30 Apr 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> Kelly Fergason skrev: >> > So, how do you get to "your disks" without going through the OS? >> >> Through the OS, but that doesn't mean that the OS in itself should >> ever touch my disks. >This thread has kind of degraded into something relatively nonsensical. >The primary lesson to be learned here is that all actions have >consequences. So as long as you're prepared to accept the consequences >(and hopefully not harm anyone in the process), it's not really a problem. Consequences? I just pretend that there aren't any. >Iggy, I'd imagine that if the stakes get a little higher at some point in >the future, and if you stick with UNIX as an operating system, you'll >change your practices a bit and live with the burdensome inconvenience of >typing in the `shutdown' command. I accept UNIX as long as I don't have to be too direct with it. It has got its good points, but really is at its best stuffed away into a cooled, UPS- equipped cabinet, or at least in a dark corner where I don't have to encounter it. >ObClassiccmp: Especially if you're running older UNIX operating systems >on classic hardware. :-) Well, I can accept some quirks in old hardware and software, but now it's year 2001, and computers should get out of their 70's "sync sync sync" rut. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Amiga 4000/040 25MHz/44MB/20GB RetinaBLTZ3/VLab/FastlaneZ3/Ariadne/Toccata From optimus at canit.se Tue May 1 16:46:35 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:57 2005 Subject: Anyone read.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <769.521T1750T13664883optimus@canit.se> VAX collector skrev: >IIRC my high-school history correctly, noone outside of Germany had >any idea of the magnitude of Hilter's racial purification policies. >It wasn't until the allies marched into the concentration camps and >discovered piles of bones instead of cheering prisoners that the >truth came out. The majority of the people didn't know, but the ones in power did. And didn't care. But that's 50 years ago, so who the hell cares? We've all been on the net long enough to know that whoever mentions the H word loses. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Die Zeit kommt aus der Zukunft, die nicht existiert, in die Gegenwart, die keine Dauer hat, und geht in die Vergangenheit, die aufgeh?rt hat, zu bestehen. --- Augustinus (R?m. Kirchenlehrer, 354-430 n. Chr.) From oliv555 at arrl.net Tue May 1 18:07:26 2001 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (no) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:57 2005 Subject: Storageworks SBB Cases References: <200105011743.f41HhE308188@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <3AEF41AE.FF4966D7@arrl.net> Eric Dittman wrote: > > > I'm trying to do the opposite, turn an extra mPDP11/BA23 into > > a MVII. Would you be interesting in swapping your MVII faceplate > > assy for my MicroPDP11 faceplate assy (assuming we are both > > talking BA23 of course) > > Do you want to swap just the faceplate, or the faceplate, > CPU, memory, and CPU cab. kit? > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net Sorry, that was meant to go off-list. Was thinking of trading just the faceplate (control panel) and cpu cab-kit. Haven't used a BA23/MVII before, besides the ID plate are the front panels the same? nick o From rdd at smart.net Tue May 1 18:39:14 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:57 2005 Subject: Something that a PERQ was used for... Message-ID: Greetings, In case anyone's interested in seeing a few scanned-in images from a book created on a classic PERQ graphics workstation, I've made them available at: www.perqlogic.com/uxbook Technical info: Computers used: PERQ T2 and PERQ-1A Software used: OS: POS (PERQ operating system) typesetting: IDOCS Mint document formatting software from Igloo software which generated an XPress format output file graphics: Paint from Advent Imaging, Ltd. and Picasso from Prolog Software printing: Capri, the PERQ interface to a Canon LBP-Cx Printer: Canon LBP-Cx, engine driven directly by the PERQ -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From kmetcalf at lighthousebiz.com Tue May 1 19:02:06 2001 From: kmetcalf at lighthousebiz.com (Kevin Metcalf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:57 2005 Subject: Free: HP 9000/350 & monitor (working) (fwd) Message-ID: Did you say free? I live in Cupertino and would be willing to take it off your hands! (I got this from my friend Cameron Kaiser, in case you were curious how I came across this. He is a big comedore nut. :) ) Thanks! Kevin Metcalf Lighthouse Business Partners. Hi, If anyone wants a working HP 9000/350 & color monitor, please let me know. It runs HP-UX 8.0 (IIRC), and X-Windows. It's in Cupertino, CA, and time is of the essence. (I'd prefer to keep back the HP-IB disk drive, or swap it for a somewhat similar HP disk drive, if possible.) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 1 18:56:36 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:57 2005 Subject: Something that a PERQ was used for... In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at May 1, 1 07:39:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2503 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010502/9e8b4f18/attachment.ksh From ss at allegro.com Tue May 1 19:42:27 2001 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:57 2005 Subject: Free: HP 9000/350 & monitor (working) (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3AEEF583.18466.19D5E4C2@localhost> Hi, > Did you say free? Sure did! > I live in Cupertino and would be willing to take it off > your hands! GREAT! Want to give me a call at (408) 252-2330? (my work #) Also available at the same low, low price (i.e., ZERO): 1) HP 9000/815, working. This is a PA-RISC computer. HP-IB interface. Network card. About 12" by 13" by 13". (I'd prefer to keep the hard drive, however ... or swap for another one.) 2) R.B.Annis Company Demagnitizer (Model possibly: 6 N Cir.) 110 volt, 3.57 amps, apparently working. 3) AT&T 6300 manuals, diag disk 4) HP 9000/715t 33 workstation & color monitor (runs X-Windows), working 33 MHz (I think), PA-RISC. With some version of HP-UX on it. (this is a desktop workstation) thanks! Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From dittman at dittman.net Tue May 1 19:56:40 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:57 2005 Subject: Storageworks SBB Cases In-Reply-To: <200105012252.PAA02180@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at May 01, 2001 03:52:36 PM Message-ID: <200105020056.f420ueW09759@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > I did not have to do anything special with my KZPSA cards (except > > switch one to ID 6 so I could SCSI cluster the systems). > > Odd. Do you happen to know what version of the firmware you're running? Is > it the lastest, or an old version. It looks like my problem is the version > of PWS firmware I've got. I loaded the latest version of the firmware available from the website. I updated the systems when I bought them. > > The Intraserver card has a bug with systems with a Pyxis chipset > > that requires a special patched driver. So my long-term plan is to > > buy a DS10 and use the Intraserver card there. > > Ah. :^( Well, I'm glad to find that out before going out and spending $300 > for the card. Well, the patched driver does work, but every time a SCSI patch is released there's a new version of PKW$DRIVER, and the fixes in the Intraserver patched version aren't in there, so you'd have to get an updated patched version each time (if available). I decided I didn't want this headache. > Sounds about like me, though I've currently still got the Elsa Gloria in the > machine, but am using my Mac as the display. I've tried a ZLXp-L1 and it > refuses to boot as it has an unknown device in it. That sounds like an out-of-date firmware issue on the PWS, or you need to move the card to a different slot. > That sucks about the Oxygen card, I'd been considering that one. Any idea > how well the Oxygen card would work in a DS10? Be nice if DS10's would > start hitting the used market :^) The VX1 is supposed to work quite well on a DS10. I'm waiting for the DS10 boxes to drop. Right now the cheapest I've found is about $3400, but that's with memory, drives, etc. loaded. Noone seems to sell a stripped DS10. > > Are you willing to sell the old /73 board? I'd rather have a slow /73 > > than none at all. > > I'm afriad you missed my point. That and some other stuff were part of a > deal that got me the Quad-Hieght /73 CPU. Yes, I did miss that point. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From kees.stravers at iae.nl Tue May 1 20:18:01 2001 From: kees.stravers at iae.nl (kees.stravers@iae.nl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:57 2005 Subject: Archaeology Article Message-ID: <20010502011801.1BB8D20F4D@mail.iae.nl> On 2001-05-01 classiccmp@classiccmp.org said: >On Wed, 25 April 2001, John Keys wrote: >> Picked the issue at the news stand today that had the 2 page >>article on classic computers staring our own Sellam Ismail. It >>was fun reading and now I have to see this former car plant that >>serves as your warehouse. I have to get me rich uncle so that I >>can get that kind of space. Articles like this are great for our >>collecting efforts as more and more people learn about they seek >>us out to donate their old computers. Keep up the good work. Is it possible to put a scan of this article online somewhere? This magazine isn't available over here... Kees -- Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - kees.stravers@iae.nl http://www.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/ My home page (old computers,music,photography) http://www.vaxarchive.org/ Info on old DEC VAX computers (Mirrors: http://vaxarchive.khubla.com/ and http://vaxarchive.sevensages.org/) Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered From jss at ou.edu Tue May 1 20:24:22 2001 From: jss at ou.edu (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:57 2005 Subject: MicroVAX 3100 booting question... In-Reply-To: <1440.521T850T13634619optimus@canit.se> References: <1440.521T850T13634619optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <988766662.3aef61c664627@email.ou.edu> Quoting Iggy Drougge : > Well, I can accept some quirks in old hardware and software, but > now it's year 2001, and computers should get out of their 70's > "sync sync sync" rut. They have -- it's just off-topic here. :-) -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@ou.edu From vance at ikickass.org Tue May 1 20:31:11 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Vance Dereksen) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:57 2005 Subject: Free: HP 9000/350 & monitor (working) (fwd) In-Reply-To: <3AEEF583.18466.19D5E4C2@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 May 2001, Stan Sieler wrote: > Hi, > > > Did you say free? > > Sure did! > > > I live in Cupertino and would be willing to take it off > > your hands! > > GREAT! > > Want to give me a call at (408) 252-2330? (my work #) > > Also available at the same low, low price (i.e., ZERO): > > 1) HP 9000/815, working. This is a PA-RISC computer. HP-IB interface. > Network card. About 12" by 13" by 13". > (I'd prefer to keep the hard drive, however ... or swap for another > one.) I would be interested in this thing or the 715t, and I would even pay for shipping. Peace... Sridhar > 2) R.B.Annis Company Demagnitizer > (Model possibly: 6 N Cir.) 110 volt, 3.57 amps, apparently working. > > 3) AT&T 6300 manuals, diag disk > > 4) HP 9000/715t 33 workstation & color monitor (runs X-Windows), > working > 33 MHz (I think), PA-RISC. With some version of HP-UX on it. > (this is a desktop workstation) > > thanks! > Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com > www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler > From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 1 20:55:17 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: Storageworks SBB Cases In-Reply-To: <200105020056.f420ueW09759@narnia.int.dittman.net> from "Eric Dittman" at May 01, 2001 07:56:40 PM Message-ID: <200105020155.SAA11802@shell1.aracnet.com> > I loaded the latest version of the firmware available from > the website. I updated the systems when I bought them. OK, next time I've got a chance to play with the system I'll look into the firmware. > > Sounds about like me, though I've currently still got the Elsa Gloria in the > > machine, but am using my Mac as the display. I've tried a ZLXp-L1 and it > > refuses to boot as it has an unknown device in it. > > That sounds like an out-of-date firmware issue on the PWS, or > you need to move the card to a different slot. Actually this is a known problem. There was a patched firmware that was apparently available from DEC at one point that would allow the card to be used. Basically the PWS firmware is designed to refuse to boot if there is a card in it that it doesn't recognize. Irritating to say the least as this would be a better card to use in the system than the Elsa Gloria otherwise. > The VX1 is supposed to work quite well on a DS10. I'm waiting for > the DS10 boxes to drop. Right now the cheapest I've found is about > $3400, but that's with memory, drives, etc. loaded. Noone seems to > sell a stripped DS10. I think that's about what I've seen also. IIRC, the DS10 is supposed to be able to use standard DIMM's, instead of fancy RAM. It would definitly be nice to be able to get a stripped one. I remember when they first came out there was someplace that was selling "almost stripped" ones for Linux. At the time the price difference was over $2000 between one of those and one with OpenVMS. Now it looks like the difference might be as low as $500-1000. Zane From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue May 1 20:57:47 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: Finds... (mainly Heathkit 3400) Message-ID: <007801c0d2ab$addf3160$1e779a8d@ajp166> From: John Lawson >>around half of the active participants have the Affliction. Hmmm... a >>Classic Computer Collector's Net on 20 or 40 Meters? We'd need to get >>Sellam licensed... ;} What about us Techs... VHF and above! > Anyway... if by Packrat you mean an AEA PK232... they are a very nice >TNC/Modem/Decoder... function set depending on the ROM Rev. And, >(ObClassiccmp) I managed to purchase PK232 serial number 76 from a big ham >store in Los Angeles the week they were introduced. After serial #100, >production was transfered to Hong Kong, where it remained until AEA went >under in 95 or 96 (IIRC). Also (ObClassiccmp) the PK232s were run by a >classic Z80 chipset. And yes, I still own it, and two others of later >vintage I picked up along the way. I watched this via remote (IE: read QST have many Handbooks) now I can being as I have 6/2/70cm capability. Allison KB1GMX... Old computers new gimmicks. From zmerch at 30below.com Tue May 1 21:05:42 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: *More* Finds... (mainly Heathkit 3400) In-Reply-To: <3AEECA18.11486.192C43F7@localhost> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20010501220542.01419db0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Stan Sieler may have mentioned these words: >Hi, >> the entire 3400 manual (except schematics) scanned in the PaperPort format >> (Windows viewer available, don't know about other platforms). I could send >> you a CD with the files, or I could print a copy and send it along... No > >I'd be interested in such a CD...I also have a 3400. I'd still be kinda interested in that CD, but Kismet walked thru the store a little while ago - one of the hams at the auction that was helping sort stuff (the auctioneers knew *nothing* about this stuff, thankfully, they were smart enough to ask for help) had found the books for the 3400, squirrelled them away for me and had a chance to stop by and gave them to me!!! This is *so* cool! I got the manual for the ET-3400A & both the Assembly & Software Reference Manuals for the Memory I/O Accessory (ETA-3400) - I'm not sure if that's actually installed in the 3400, but I'm sure I can mock one up given the books (A quick glance seems to give me all the schematics & all... :-) :-) Anywho, thanks for the offers of copies & whatnot, but "I gots the real thing!" - As heathkit is still in business, they might get upset posting *everything* to the web, but I do plan on putting up a webpage with the memory map & other esoteric stuff, to help others who get just the box & not the dox... {If someone needs a copy of one of the manuals, I'm not against doing that - but I just don't wanna stuff everything out to the public at large...) Thanks! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From sieler at allegro.com Tue May 1 21:20:16 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: HP LaserROMs for MPE V (V-delta 9) and MPE XL (3.0), free Message-ID: <200105020220.TAA19518@opus.allegro.com> Hi, I have several copies of three different HP LaserROM documentation CDs available, free: MPE V (V-Delta 9 release) (1990?) MPE V Business Systems (MPE V) (1988) MPE XL (3.0) (1992) Email me if you want one or more. -- Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.sieler.com From marvin at rain.org Tue May 1 21:57:37 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: Finds... (mainly Heathkit 3400) References: <007801c0d2ab$addf3160$1e779a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3AEF77A1.8C7862A2@rain.org> ajp166 wrote: > > From: John Lawson > > >>around half of the active participants have the Affliction. Hmmm... a > >>Classic Computer Collector's Net on 20 or 40 Meters? We'd need to get > >>Sellam licensed... ;} > > What about us Techs... VHF and above! UPGRADE!!! With the Morse code requirement having dropped to 5 WPM, the code ceases to be a problem. And the written tests are just not that hard with a bit of study. I upgraded from tech+ to extra in one sitting and it was pretty easy. From dittman at dittman.net Tue May 1 22:17:27 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: Storageworks SBB Cases In-Reply-To: <200105020155.SAA11802@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at May 01, 2001 06:55:17 PM Message-ID: <200105020317.f423HRm11068@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > > Sounds about like me, though I've currently still got the Elsa Gloria in the > > > machine, but am using my Mac as the display. I've tried a ZLXp-L1 and it > > > refuses to boot as it has an unknown device in it. > > > > That sounds like an out-of-date firmware issue on the PWS, or > > you need to move the card to a different slot. > > Actually this is a known problem. There was a patched firmware that was > apparently available from DEC at one point that would allow the card to be > used. Basically the PWS firmware is designed to refuse to boot if there is > a card in it that it doesn't recognize. Irritating to say the least as this > would be a better card to use in the system than the Elsa Gloria otherwise. I have a ZLXp-E2 and it gives this message if I have it in one of the (I think) primary PCI slots, but moving it to a secondary PCI allows the system to boot and use the card. > > The VX1 is supposed to work quite well on a DS10. I'm waiting for > > the DS10 boxes to drop. Right now the cheapest I've found is about > > $3400, but that's with memory, drives, etc. loaded. Noone seems to > > sell a stripped DS10. > > I think that's about what I've seen also. IIRC, the DS10 is supposed to be > able to use standard DIMM's, instead of fancy RAM. It would definitly be > nice to be able to get a stripped one. I remember when they first came out > there was someplace that was selling "almost stripped" ones for Linux. At > the time the price difference was over $2000 between one of those and one > with OpenVMS. Now it looks like the difference might be as low as > $500-1000. I could convince myself to buy a 0/0 configuration for $2000, but that price point probably won't bee seen for another year. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 1 22:34:52 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: SoCal auction, going going gone In-Reply-To: References: <01042815271103.01063@fatty> Message-ID: One of SoCals best auction sites turned its head and coughed for the last time today, BBC auction in Huntington Beach went up for auction to the bare walls today. Blood flowed in the aisles, and all that saved me (not like I got saved) was the grouping of lots into amounts even I considered insane for me to bid on. I bought about 3 pallets worth of Apple Service parts, a MacTV, a rack of different kinds of printer expansion memory, and lots more that I still have no clue on entire contents. So far the sort of treasure that I have snooped in the loot are brand new IIgs and Mac Plus keyboards, drive mechanisms for the CD SC, new 20 MB drives, and lots of useless printer parts. ;) Sometime before my next garage sale in July I WILL have a list on my web site. For now I am working on how the heck to get it all home. From nerdware at laidbak.com Tue May 1 22:50:16 2001 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Mod 12 -- question for list Message-ID: <200105020352.f423q0723566@grover.winsite.com> Hello. Since I've gotten absolutely no response, I'm confused. In light of the recent postings about selling items to list members, I'm wondering if I've inadvertantly stepped over some line here or if nobody actually wants this system. If the former is the case, I apologize, as I thought it would be better to offer it here first. If the latter is the case, oh well. I'll try it on ebay. I just hate to trash a perfectly good Tandy, and I don't have room to keep it. I'm not looking to make a killing here. I would just like a little something to partially recoup my original expenditures. Thanks. Paul Braun WD9GCO Cygnus Productions nerdware_nospam@laidbak.com "A computer without a Microsoft operating system is like a dog without a bunch of bricks tied to its head." From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue May 1 23:03:51 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Mod 12 -- question for list In-Reply-To: <200105020352.f423q0723566@grover.winsite.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010501210209.00aa5e40@208.226.86.10> Hi Paul, Don't be confused :-) This is exactly how a lot of folks prefer it to work, you say to the list : "I've got a widget and its available for sale, this it what I'd like for it." and you get either "I'll take it.", "how about $y instead", or dead silence. In the latter case then you can put it on Ebay in good conscience because no one can heckle you after you offered it here first. --Chuck At 10:50 PM 5/1/01 -0500, you wrote: >Hello. > >Since I've gotten absolutely no response, I'm confused. In light of >the recent postings about selling items to list members, I'm >wondering if I've inadvertantly stepped over some line here or if >nobody actually wants this system. > >If the former is the case, I apologize, as I thought it would be better >to offer it here first. > >If the latter is the case, oh well. I'll try it on ebay. I just hate to >trash a perfectly good Tandy, and I don't have room to keep it. > >I'm not looking to make a killing here. I would just like a little >something to partially recoup my original expenditures. > >Thanks. > > > > >Paul Braun WD9GCO >Cygnus Productions >nerdware_nospam@laidbak.com > >"A computer without a Microsoft operating system is like a dog without a >bunch of bricks tied to its head." From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue May 1 23:11:00 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: FT: PIII/550 SECC2 for PGA version Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010501210735.01ce0d00@208.226.86.10> Hi Everyone, I realize it isn't classic and will probably get flamed for this, however ... :-) I have a "spare" Pentium III / 550Mhz processor in the SECC2 package (w/ Fan) and I also have a motherboard that is a socket 370 mobo. I need a Socket 370 processor for this motherboard. Does anyone care to trade this wonderful processor for a PGA version of the PIII ? --Chuck From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue May 1 23:48:09 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Mod 12 -- question for list In-Reply-To: <200105020352.f423q0723566@grover.winsite.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010501214722.032a7ec0@mail.zipcon.net> Paul, me email to you keeps bouncing :( are you interested in those dimms (compaq) I have? if so shoot me an email :) what would you be looking for for the ol model 12? At 10:50 PM 5/1/01 -0500, you wrote: >Hello. > >Since I've gotten absolutely no response, I'm confused. In light of >the recent postings about selling items to list members, I'm >wondering if I've inadvertantly stepped over some line here or if >nobody actually wants this system. > >If the former is the case, I apologize, as I thought it would be better >to offer it here first. > >If the latter is the case, oh well. I'll try it on ebay. I just hate to >trash a perfectly good Tandy, and I don't have room to keep it. > >I'm not looking to make a killing here. I would just like a little >something to partially recoup my original expenditures. > >Thanks. > > > > >Paul Braun WD9GCO >Cygnus Productions >nerdware_nospam@laidbak.com > >"A computer without a Microsoft operating system is like a dog without a >bunch of bricks tied to its head." From gregorym at cadvision.com Tue May 1 23:46:34 2001 From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: Copy protection dongles Message-ID: <002f01c0d2c2$efb3cbc0$0100a8c0@hal-9000-2> Why oh why is it that software that uses dongles for copy protection never, ever, includes the dongle in thrift or used software stores? Is there a classiccmp approved solution to keeping older software running, even if the dongle is long gone? For example, through buying old systems I've now acquired three original versions of an Amiga DB package called Superbase (two Superbase Personals, one Superbase Professional). I have original disks, manuals, etc., but no dongles. Short of finding "broken" copies of the software, is there any way to defeat the hardware check that's looking for the dongle? What are the ethics of finding a way to defeat copy protection on old software? Any suggestions much appreciated. Cheers, Mark Gregory From nerdware at laidbak.com Wed May 2 00:38:11 2001 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Mod 12 -- question for list In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010501210209.00aa5e40@208.226.86.10> References: <200105020352.f423q0723566@grover.winsite.com> Message-ID: <200105020539.f425dwd24308@grover.winsite.com> Thanks. I might have an offer after all.... I've just had a really long week. It's easy to confuse me. > Hi Paul, > > Don't be confused :-) This is exactly how a lot of folks prefer it to > work, you say to the list : "I've got a widget and its available for > sale, this it what I'd like for it." and you get either "I'll take > it.", "how about $y instead", or dead silence. In the latter case then > you can put it on Ebay in good conscience because no one can heckle > you after you offered it here first. > > --Chuck > > At 10:50 PM 5/1/01 -0500, you wrote: > >Hello. > > > >Since I've gotten absolutely no response, I'm confused. In light of > >the recent postings about selling items to list members, I'm > >wondering if I've inadvertantly stepped over some line here or if > >nobody actually wants this system. > > > >If the former is the case, I apologize, as I thought it would be > >better to offer it here first. > > > >If the latter is the case, oh well. I'll try it on ebay. I just hate > >to trash a perfectly good Tandy, and I don't have room to keep it. > > > >I'm not looking to make a killing here. I would just like a little > >something to partially recoup my original expenditures. > > > >Thanks. > > > > > > > > > >Paul Braun WD9GCO > >Cygnus Productions > >nerdware_nospam@laidbak.com > > > >"A computer without a Microsoft operating system is like a dog > >without a bunch of bricks tied to its head." > > Paul Braun WD9GCO Cygnus Productions nerdware_nospam@laidbak.com "A computer without a Microsoft operating system is like a dog without a bunch of bricks tied to its head." From jarkko at mail.er-grp.com Wed May 2 01:09:23 2001 From: jarkko at mail.er-grp.com (jarkko@mail.er-grp.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: Free: HP 9000/350 & monitor (working) In-Reply-To: <200105011955.MAA14822@opus.allegro.com>; from sieler@allegro.com on Tue, May 01, 2001 at 12:55:41PM -0700 References: <200105011955.MAA14822@opus.allegro.com> Message-ID: <20010502090923.C8094@mail.er-grp.com> On Tue, May 01, 2001 at 12:55:41PM -0700, Stan Sieler wrote: > Hi, > > If anyone wants a working HP 9000/350 & color monitor, please let > me know. It runs HP-UX 8.0 (IIRC), and X-Windows. > Yes, I'd want it but.. > It's in Cupertino, CA, and time is of the essence. And it seems spoken for and the shipping costs would kill me. Again. The 350 is an interesting beast because it's one of the two 300-series models which uses an HP MMU and not the standard Motorola parts. The other model is the 320. I gots to get me one of those. -- jht, looking for all things HP From p.anderson at mds.qmw.ac.uk Wed May 2 14:50:30 2001 From: p.anderson at mds.qmw.ac.uk (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: RQDX3 under RT11 Message-ID: <3AF06505.AA4BD3A4@mds.qmw.ac.uk> Does any know if the RQDX3-AA controller is supported by RT11v5.4 b, or do I have to get an upgrade. Paul From miller at keyways.com Wed May 2 03:34:21 2001 From: miller at keyways.com (miller@keyways.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: RQDX3 under RT11 Message-ID: <010502083421.ad8f@keyways.com> >Does any know if the RQDX3-AA controller is supported by RT11v5.4 b, or >do I have to get an upgrade. > >Paul Paul, We use earlier versions of RT-11 with RQDX3 controllers so you should have no problem with support. Mitch Keyways From vijayu at mahindrabt.com Wed May 2 08:19:26 2001 From: vijayu at mahindrabt.com (Vijay Shankar Upreti) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: Problem while booting!!! Message-ID: <007701c0d30a$84d7c200$502a18ac@mahindrabt.com> Hi , I am favcing problem while booting the Sun Sol. 5.6 . After Starting rpc services: rpcbind keyserv ypbind done It gets stuck...not going ahead... Can anyone tell me a way out to this? thanks in advance vijay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010502/98589d47/attachment.html From ken at seefried.com Wed May 2 08:25:34 2001 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: Geek Radio Networks (was: Re: Finds... (mainly Heathkit 3400)) In-Reply-To: <200105020301.WAA88569@opal.tseinc.com> References: <200105020301.WAA88569@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <20010502132534.3987.qmail@mail.seefried.com> > Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 23:35:46 -0400 (EDT) > From: John Lawson > Subject: Re: Finds... (mainly Heathkit 3400) > > Hmmm... a Classic Computer Collector's Net on 20 or 40 Meters? > We'd need to get Sellam licensed... ;} > Have you seen http://www.irlp.net/? They are linking local amature radio networks together using the internet as a backbone. Not 20 or 40 meter, but interesting non-the-less. Ken Seefried, CISSP From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Wed May 2 07:28:38 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: Another DEC haul In-Reply-To: <000b01c0d104$b97375c0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <3.0.5.32.20010429160753.007de980@yellow.ucdavis.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010502082838.00ffcba8@obregon.multi.net.co> At 07:32 PM 4/29/01 -0400, you wrote: >>> Whew! 42 hours with no sleep. I'm getting too old for this. > >> 42 hours of no sleep will do ANYONE in, no matter what their age is! >> You're crazy! > >The Thing that got me is that he had time to make >the posting before going to sleep. Priorities? Nah; I know the feeling: when you're turbocharged with excitement you always push it a little further. Me, I probably would have gotten up from bed one more time to take a last look at the haul before finally deciding to stay in the bed. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From curt at atari-history.com Wed May 2 08:41:07 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: Problem while booting!!! References: <007701c0d30a$84d7c200$502a18ac@mahindrabt.com> Message-ID: <3AF00E73.DD5BAFC1@atari-history.com> Vijay, Is the box connected to a network??? Are you getting any errors like Network Link Error??? What might be happening is the server is looking for a bind server out on the net. Usually you'll get a repeated message for about 2 mins, then to times out and should continue (what type of box is it???) so it may be its just pausing during the final stages of the inetd services starting up. Curt Vijay Shankar Upreti wrote: > Hi , I am favcing problem while booting the Sun Sol. 5.6 . > AfterStarting rpc services: rpcbind keyserv ypbind done It gets > stuck...not going ahead... Can anyone tell me a way out to > this? thanks in advancevijay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010502/8ed71d70/attachment.html From p.anderson at mds.qmw.ac.uk Wed May 2 16:56:06 2001 From: p.anderson at mds.qmw.ac.uk (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: RT11 v5.4B Message-ID: <3AF08276.87CB3D1@mds.qmw.ac.uk> We have lost our RT11v5.4B RX50 installation disks (we DO have a license). Could anyone advise where or how to get new copies. Many thanks -- P. Anderson BSc PhD MInstP CPhys Senior Lecturer, Biophysics Section Oral Growth and Development Medical Sciences Building Queen Mary, University of London Mile End Road London E1 4NS UK tel: +44 (0)20 7882 7933 fax: +44 (0)20 7882 7931 web: http://www.mds.qmw.ac.uk/dbiophysics e-mail: p.anderson@mds.qmw.ac.uk From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Wed May 2 07:24:36 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: Amiga items on eBay -- advertising auctions on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010429130827.02e6f1c0@mail.njd.concentric.com> References: <3AEC40FF.2A0CE8D6@rain.org> <4.3.2.7.0.20010426105658.01e00620@pc> <00e401c0ce92$1c975240$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> <988382752.3ae9862022376@email.ou.edu> <20010427112310.A11478@alcor.concordia.ca> <988560559.3aec3cafb7936@email.ou.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010502082436.00ffcb10@obregon.multi.net.co> At 01:13 PM 4/29/01 -0400, Tony Eros wrote: >Yeah, but in much the same way that the phone knows when you're taking a >bath, my cable modem knows when I'm planning to snipe and on at least three >occasions decided to start resynching with the network about a minute >before the end of an auction I wanted. Yes, it has happened to me too. Another strategy that is beginning to become commonplace is "last-minute flooding", when a bidder will send 10 or 20 bids with the smallest value increment within the last 10 seconds or so of the auction. I wonder if this can actually block out other last-second bidders or if eBay has an adequate receipt-time-stamp/post-processing bid evaluation system. Carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From bill at cs.scranton.edu Wed May 2 09:05:17 2001 From: bill at cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Mod 12 -- question for list In-Reply-To: <200105020352.f423q0723566@grover.winsite.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 May 2001, Paul Braun wrote: > Hello. > > Since I've gotten absolutely no response, I'm confused. In light of > the recent postings about selling items to list members, I'm > wondering if I've inadvertantly stepped over some line here or if > nobody actually wants this system. I, too, asked here about the propriety of offering thigs for sale to the list. I had a big SMD disk from a GEAC Library Computer that ended out in pieces int he dumpster. I still have stuff like a big TEK 4693D printer and maybe even some old SGI Personal Irises. Based on the deafening silence, I assume either selling stuff here is a no-no or no one is interested. It will be a shame, but space is valuable and all of this stuff may soon have to find it's way into the dumpster as well. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 2 09:06:51 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Mod 12 -- question for list In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010501210209.00aa5e40@208.226.86.10> References: <200105020352.f423q0723566@grover.winsite.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010502085603.01f0d710@pc> At 09:03 PM 5/1/01 -0700, Chuck McManis wrote: >Don't be confused :-) This is exactly how a lot of folks prefer it to work, you say to the list : "I've got a widget and its available for sale, this it what I'd like for it." and you get either "I'll take it.", "how about $y instead", or dead silence. In the latter case then you can put it on Ebay in good conscience because no one can heckle you after you offered it here first. My good friend Sheldon (author of Mapping the Commodore 64 and various ancient Atari reference guides) has another rule, that if you put something on eBay and it doesn't sell, you can throw it away (or donate it) in good conscience. I'm still amazed and puzzled by eBay. Although you hear plenty of griping about high prices, I'm still stunned by the deals that people get. I recently sold an old (probably classic) ISA 8-port serial card. It went for $11, and by some coincidence, the buyer was local, so he picked it up the same day. He explained that the company that bought the company that made this card still sells these old cards for $1700 or so, and he'd budgeted up to $500 to acquire one, but he got it for $11 from me. Where he works, they use these in the printing business to feed multiple magazine addressing systems, and by cobbling them together themselves with relatively classic components, they save tens of thousands of dollars per system, compared with new equipment. None of my very classic and rare (new) Amiga wearables went for more than $12, and many went for less than half that. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 2 09:20:49 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: Copy protection dongles In-Reply-To: <002f01c0d2c2$efb3cbc0$0100a8c0@hal-9000-2> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010502090803.01dc8a30@pc> At 10:46 PM 5/1/01 -0600, Mark Gregory wrote: >Why oh why is it that software that uses dongles for copy protection never, >ever, includes the dongle in thrift or used software stores? Is there a >classiccmp approved solution to keeping older software running, even if the >dongle is long gone? For example, through buying old systems I've now >acquired three original versions of an Amiga DB package called Superbase >(two Superbase Personals, one Superbase Professional). I have original >disks, manuals, etc., but no dongles. Short of finding "broken" copies of >the software, is there any way to defeat the hardware check that's looking >for the dongle? What are the ethics of finding a way to defeat copy >protection on old software? Any suggestions much appreciated. I'm in the opposite situation. I have boxes of dongles, and if it weren't for Sharpie markers and bits of label, I wouldn't know what they're for. I've bought old software with dongles, and I've even found dongles still stuck inside or outside old machines I found at the curb. The hard line answer is without the dongles, you can't run the software. But that means you must be a believer in shrinkwrap licenses, which often include such fanciful stories such as "there might not be anything in this box at all, and it wouldn't be our fault" and "we might even ask for this back, and you'd be out the money" and "this may work, or it may not". You may not possess anything resembling an actual old licensed copy. After all, what you have is indistinguishable from what remained after someone upgraded - in theory, someone out there could own "your" copy with newer manuals and software and the old dongle. Cracks are illegal in any flavor of shrinkwrap. Without a company willing to enforce it, it's much like you're dishonoring the wishes of the dead. But Superbase the company isn't dead. See http://www.superbase.com/sbdocu/maintain/Maintai8.htm . Ask them about the Amiga version and see what happens. In an odd connection, near the end of the Amiga market, I was consulting at Software Publishing Corporation at the time they acquired Superbase from Precision. - John From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Wed May 2 09:22:06 2001 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: Amiga items on eBay -- advertising auctions on classiccmp Message-ID: Flooding can be blocked if you take advantage of proxy bidding. Just decide what your _maximum_ bid is, and enter that amount (near the end of the auction, if you want, but not at the last second). Your actual bid will only be the minimum increment above the next highest actual bid (and not necessarily what you are willing to go up to). For example, when the high bid is $20 and the increment is $1, you bid $50, and have an actual high bid of $21. If someone floods with 10 bids of $1 each, you still win with a bid of $41: you go $1 over each of the flood bids as each is made. -----Original Message----- From: Carlos Murillo [mailto:cmurillo@emtelsa.multi.net.co] Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 7:25 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Amiga items on eBay -- advertising auctions on classiccmp Another strategy that is beginning to become commonplace is "last-minute flooding", when a bidder will send 10 or 20 bids with the smallest value increment within the last 10 seconds or so of the auction. From marvin at rain.org Wed May 2 09:51:56 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: Amiga items on eBay -- advertising auctions on classiccmp References: <3AEC40FF.2A0CE8D6@rain.org> <4.3.2.7.0.20010426105658.01e00620@pc> <00e401c0ce92$1c975240$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> <988382752.3ae9862022376@email.ou.edu> <20010427112310.A11478@alcor.concordia.ca> <988560559.3aec3cafb7936@email.ou.edu> <3.0.2.32.20010502082436.00ffcb10@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <3AF01F0C.578390EC@rain.org> Carlos Murillo wrote: > > Yes, it has happened to me too. Another strategy that > is beginning to become commonplace is "last-minute flooding", > when a bidder will send 10 or 20 bids with the smallest value > increment within the last 10 seconds or so of the auction. > I wonder if this can actually block out other last-second > bidders or if eBay has an adequate receipt-time-stamp/post-processing > bid evaluation system. The short answer is yes. The DNF (Discuss Newest Features) board has a sniping contest at 22:22:22 PDT Ebay time and the highest I've seen is 39 posts in that one second. And to say again, sniping only works against bidders who either do not know or are not willing to bid what an item might be worth. I think that "stategy" you are talking about is just ignorance of the system. From claudew at videotron.ca Wed May 2 09:59:25 2001 From: claudew at videotron.ca (Claude.W) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: Dont sell it or junk it -- trade it on the list...WAS : TRS-80 Mod 12 -- question for list References: Message-ID: <001901c0d318$7a853540$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> Well, I find great pleasure in trading with members on the list. I cant stand ebay...sorry....too much of a hassle/$.... I cant see myself asking for money for the extra stuff I have but I love to trade and have done it many times with people here. Also a few giveaways....received and gave. Oh yeah, see my trade list on my site....My big spring cleaning is almost over and I would rather send some of this stuff to good homes (and receive something you dont want anymore in exchange...) then destroy it... Too much to list here.... Claude Canuk Computer Collector http://computer_collector.tripod.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Gunshannon To: Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 10:05 AM Subject: Re: TRS-80 Mod 12 -- question for list > On Tue, 1 May 2001, Paul Braun wrote: > > > Hello. > > > > Since I've gotten absolutely no response, I'm confused. In light of > > the recent postings about selling items to list members, I'm > > wondering if I've inadvertantly stepped over some line here or if > > nobody actually wants this system. > > I, too, asked here about the propriety of offering thigs for sale to > the list. I had a big SMD disk from a GEAC Library Computer that > ended out in pieces int he dumpster. I still have stuff like a big > TEK 4693D printer and maybe even some old SGI Personal Irises. Based > on the deafening silence, I assume either selling stuff here is a no-no > or no one is interested. It will be a shame, but space is valuable and > all of this stuff may soon have to find it's way into the dumpster as well. > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves > bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton | > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include > From kfergaso at swbell.net Wed May 2 09:51:15 2001 From: kfergaso at swbell.net (Kelly Fergason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: Problem while booting!!! In-Reply-To: <3AF00E73.DD5BAFC1@atari-history.com> Message-ID: This point in the boot is also where NIS is starting up. If there is no NIS server, it will hang here. Verify an NIS server or remove/rename /etc/defaultdomain. Kelly -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Curt Vendel Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 8:41 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Problem while booting!!! Vijay, Is the box connected to a network??? Are you getting any errors like Network Link Error??? What might be happening is the server is looking for a bind server out on the net. Usually you'll get a repeated message for about 2 mins, then to times out and should continue (what type of box is it???) so it may be its just pausing during the final stages of the inetd services starting up. Curt Vijay Shankar Upreti wrote: Hi , I am favcing problem while booting the Sun Sol. 5.6 . AfterStarting rpc services: rpcbind keyserv ypbind done It gets stuck...not going ahead... Can anyone tell me a way out to this? thanks in advancevijay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010502/f1fc928c/attachment.html From LFessen106 at aol.com Wed May 2 10:10:27 2001 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Fest Message-ID: <4d.b11e717.28217d63@aol.com> Does anyone on the list have any info on the Trenton ComputerFest? I think it's supoposed to be this weekend, so I am looking for info about the time, place, etc.. Also are any of you going? -Linc Fessenden In The Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... Calculating in binary code is as easy as 01,10,11. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 2 10:24:53 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: RQDX3 under RT11 In-Reply-To: <3AF06505.AA4BD3A4@mds.qmw.ac.uk> from "Paul Anderson" at May 02, 2001 12:50:30 PM Message-ID: <200105021524.IAA02821@shell1.aracnet.com> > Does any know if the RQDX3-AA controller is supported by RT11v5.4 b, or > do I have to get an upgrade. > > Paul It'll work just fine starting with at least V5.3. However, if you're using this commercially you really should look at replacing the controller with a SCSI controller, though you might want to keep the RQDX3 in the system for the RX50 floppies. I personally consider it very dangerous to trust data to MFM Hard Drives considering thier age. I'd recommend either a CMD or Viking SCSI controller. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 2 10:33:33 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: RT11 v5.4B In-Reply-To: <3AF08276.87CB3D1@mds.qmw.ac.uk> from "Paul Anderson" at May 02, 2001 02:56:06 PM Message-ID: <200105021533.IAA03265@shell1.aracnet.com> > We have lost our RT11v5.4B RX50 installation disks (we DO have a > license). Could anyone advise where or how to get new copies. > > Many thanks This is a tricky one. Probably your best bet is to contact Mentec and see what they have to say about it. The downside being they'll probably want to move you to V5.7 and that would cost you for both an upgrade license and media kit. The upside being V5.7 is Y2K compliant (though if you're still running V5.4B you probably don't care about that). Mentec can be found at http://www.mentec.com Did you loose your Hard Drive, and are trying to get the system back up and running, or is that still working? If the system is still operational your best bet is likely to be making your own set of floppies. If you don't have any blank RX50's, but have a PC with a 1.2MB floppy drive, you can use PUTR.COM and make your own RX50's. Zane From gregorym at cadvision.com Wed May 2 08:38:41 2001 From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: Copy protection dongles References: <4.3.2.7.0.20010502090803.01dc8a30@pc> Message-ID: <003601c0d30d$33dc8720$0200a8c0@marvin> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Foust" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 8:20 AM Subject: Re: Copy protection dongles > Cracks are illegal in any flavor of shrinkwrap. Without a > company willing to enforce it, it's much like you're dishonoring > the wishes of the dead. But Superbase the company isn't dead. > See http://www.superbase.com/sbdocu/maintain/Maintai8.htm . > Ask them about the Amiga version and see what happens. > > In an odd connection, near the end of the Amiga market, I was > consulting at Software Publishing Corporation at the time they > acquired Superbase from Precision. Thanks for the pointer, John. It turns out that the Amiga version of Superbase is now owned by Mr. Hardware Computers at http://www.mrhardwarecomputers.com . Happily, they still offer an upgrade path to the latest version, and they replied to my e-mail within hours. Support classic hardware, and offer great customer service - a delightful combination. Regards, Mark. From ahm at spies.com Wed May 2 10:38:46 2001 From: ahm at spies.com (Andreas Meyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Fest In-Reply-To: <4d.b11e717.28217d63@aol.com>; from LFessen106@aol.com on Wed, May 02, 2001 at 11:10:27AM -0400 References: <4d.b11e717.28217d63@aol.com> Message-ID: <20010502113846.B14215@spies.com> LFessen106@aol.com writes: > Does anyone on the list have any info on the Trenton ComputerFest? http://tcf-nj.org/ From azog at azog.org Wed May 2 10:49:06 2001 From: azog at azog.org (Billy D'Augustine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Fest In-Reply-To: <4d.b11e717.28217d63@aol.com> Message-ID: I'm going. go to www.tcf-nj.org you can find more info. I'm not sure what to expect, considering the recent trend, but *shrug* > > > Does anyone on the list have any info on the Trenton > ComputerFest? I think > it's supoposed to be this weekend, so I am looking for info about > the time, > place, etc.. Also are any of you going? > From rhblake at bigfoot.com Wed May 2 10:39:47 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: Last call before the dumpster - IBM external tape and 60+ DC-300 tapes Message-ID: Last call before the landfill - I need $5 (what I gave for it) plus shipping (about 35 / 40 lbs) for the IBM 6157 and a box full (over 60) DC-300 tapes. All are in good shape but obviously used. I'm at zip 42726 in the event someone wants to check shipping, or you can email me and include your zip and I can calculate it. Use residential or not as applicable and "one time pickup" if calc'ing UPS as I don't have a regular daily pickup. It's $1 more by the way. If no response by Monday the local trashguys will have something to fill the truck with. Email me direct at rhblake@bigfoot.com From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 2 10:46:43 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: Amiga items on eBay -- advertising auctions on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20010502082436.00ffcb10@obregon.multi.net.co> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010429130827.02e6f1c0@mail.njd.concentric.com> <3AEC40FF.2A0CE8D6@rain.org> <4.3.2.7.0.20010426105658.01e00620@pc> <00e401c0ce92$1c975240$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> <988382752.3ae9862022376@email.ou.edu> <20010427112310.A11478@alcor.concordia.ca> <988560559.3aec3cafb7936@email.ou.edu> Message-ID: >Yes, it has happened to me too. Another strategy that >is beginning to become commonplace is "last-minute flooding", >when a bidder will send 10 or 20 bids with the smallest value >increment within the last 10 seconds or so of the auction. >I wonder if this can actually block out other last-second >bidders or if eBay has an adequate receipt-time-stamp/post-processing >bid evaluation system. Having survived a 4 hour live auction yesterday, I have to say eBay is a marvel of sensibility. On eBay you look over the item, maybe send a few emails with questions, and you make your bid, either via the eBay proxy bidding system, or via some snipe engine, and your done. Go away, work or play, the results can be expected to be fairly logical. With a live auction the situation is constantly changing, often to extremes that truely suck. I was planning on maybe $50 bid for a batch of cables, but when that item comes up it gets lotted with 32 large broken monitors, which must be removed, which I can't practically do. Bid goes for $25. From LFessen106 at aol.com Wed May 2 11:04:58 2001 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: Trenton Computer Fest Message-ID: <9a.139d8f2b.28218a2a@aol.com> In a message dated 5/2/01 11:54:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, azog@azog.org writes: > I'm going. go to www.tcf-nj.org you can find more info. I'm not sure what to > expect, considering the recent trend, but *shrug* > > > Thanks for the info guys :-) -Linc Fessenden In The Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... Calculating in binary code is as easy as 01,10,11. From optimus at canit.se Wed May 2 05:12:17 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: Copy protection dongles In-Reply-To: <002f01c0d2c2$efb3cbc0$0100a8c0@hal-9000-2> Message-ID: <1381.522T850T6724383optimus@canit.se> Mark Gregory skrev: >Why oh why is it that software that uses dongles for copy protection never, >ever, includes the dongle in thrift or used software stores? Is there a >classiccmp approved solution to keeping older software running, even if the >dongle is long gone? For example, through buying old systems I've now >acquired three original versions of an Amiga DB package called Superbase >(two Superbase Personals, one Superbase Professional). I have original >disks, manuals, etc., but no dongles. Short of finding "broken" copies of >the software, is there any way to defeat the hardware check that's looking >for the dongle? What are the ethics of finding a way to defeat copy >protection on old software? Any suggestions much appreciated. Well, SBase was at least somewhat actively published only a few years ago, and I think the publisher is still in business. They should be able to help you. Otherwise, there have been undongled SBase versions on magazine coverdisks some years ago. I've got at least a Personal version somewhere in my disk boxes. Since you own the software, I think you're in your full right to do whatever you want with it as long as you retain ownership. At least according to European law. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Alle meine Noten bringen mich nicht aus den N?ten, und ich schreibe noten ?berhaupt nur aus N?ten. --- Ludwig van Beethoven From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 2 10:56:34 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Mod 12 -- question for list In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010502085603.01f0d710@pc> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010501210209.00aa5e40@208.226.86.10> <200105020352.f423q0723566@grover.winsite.com> Message-ID: Some things the list just loves, the right books, the right software, and the right hardware from teeny bits to whole systems. Price is very often a major factor, that and clarity of the deal (it what you really want for the item, with payment and shipping terms). Make offer, or trade for some odd part, has a MUCH lower chance of a response. Other items do well on eBay. Other items do well only at live events like VCF. Most of the time squeezing the last dollar of retail value out of an item isn't worth the effort, and I am often happy just to know something is being used instead of sitting in a landfill. From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed May 2 11:23:51 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: Amiga items on eBay -- advertising auctions on classiccmp In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <01May2.123400edt.119044@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> On Wednesday, May 2, 2001, at 11:46 AM, Mike Ford wrote: > Having survived a 4 hour live auction yesterday, I have to say eBay is a > marvel of sensibility. On eBay you look over the item, maybe send a few > emails with questions, and you make your bid, either via the eBay proxy > bidding system, or via some snipe engine, and your done. Go away, work > or > play, the results can be expected to be fairly logical. With a live > auction > the situation is constantly changing, often to extremes that truely > suck. I > was planning on maybe $50 bid for a batch of cables, but when that item > comes up it gets lotted with 32 large broken monitors, which must be > removed, which I can't practically do. Bid goes for $25. The lack of needing to buy everything in lots to get the one item you want and the long viewing window is one thing I like about eBay auctions. I myself have recently resorted to using one of the sniping services so I don't actually have to remember to log on in time for a last moment bid. I never got into the live auction scene because of the need a lot of times to buy stuff I didn't want in order to get the thing I did. Jeff From vance at ikickass.org Wed May 2 11:31:49 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Vance Dereksen) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: Storageworks SBB Cases In-Reply-To: <200105020056.f420ueW09759@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: I have a VX1 on one of my PCs. It's starting to get a bit long in the tooth. There are faster cheaper PCI cards out there. Peace... Sridhar On Tue, 1 May 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > > > I did not have to do anything special with my KZPSA cards (except > > > switch one to ID 6 so I could SCSI cluster the systems). > > > > Odd. Do you happen to know what version of the firmware you're running? Is > > it the lastest, or an old version. It looks like my problem is the version > > of PWS firmware I've got. > > I loaded the latest version of the firmware available from > the website. I updated the systems when I bought them. > > > > The Intraserver card has a bug with systems with a Pyxis chipset > > > that requires a special patched driver. So my long-term plan is to > > > buy a DS10 and use the Intraserver card there. > > > > Ah. :^( Well, I'm glad to find that out before going out and spending $300 > > for the card. > > Well, the patched driver does work, but every time a SCSI patch is > released there's a new version of PKW$DRIVER, and the fixes in the > Intraserver patched version aren't in there, so you'd have to get > an updated patched version each time (if available). I decided I > didn't want this headache. > > > Sounds about like me, though I've currently still got the Elsa Gloria in the > > machine, but am using my Mac as the display. I've tried a ZLXp-L1 and it > > refuses to boot as it has an unknown device in it. > > That sounds like an out-of-date firmware issue on the PWS, or > you need to move the card to a different slot. > > > That sucks about the Oxygen card, I'd been considering that one. Any idea > > how well the Oxygen card would work in a DS10? Be nice if DS10's would > > start hitting the used market :^) > > The VX1 is supposed to work quite well on a DS10. I'm waiting for > the DS10 boxes to drop. Right now the cheapest I've found is about > $3400, but that's with memory, drives, etc. loaded. Noone seems to > sell a stripped DS10. > > > > Are you willing to sell the old /73 board? I'd rather have a slow /73 > > > than none at all. > > > > I'm afriad you missed my point. That and some other stuff were part of a > > deal that got me the Quad-Hieght /73 CPU. > > Yes, I did miss that point. > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > From enrico.badella at softstar.it Wed May 2 11:43:13 2001 From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: RS/6000 Questions and items rescued from a skip References: <000201c0d0cc$3109b740$960a0a0a@marknpc> Message-ID: <3AF03921.5C953C60@softstar.it> Mark Nias wrote: > [snip] > There's a label on the front: 7013 26-0111 > and one on the back saying: "This machine upgraded to General Availability > level on 04/10/91" > > If anyone has any details on this can you please contact me! Hi, I've got two of these machines, one is unning AIX 4.3.2 while the second lacks its RAM; quite nice even if a bit slow. The CD is quite a PITA; not really standard as most IBM things. What type of info do you need? On the IBM web site there are PDF copies of the "Installation and Service Guide" and the "Operator Guide". e. ======================================================================== Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 10143 Torino, Italy Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals ========================================================================== From bdc at world.std.com Wed May 2 11:46:59 2001 From: bdc at world.std.com (Brian Chase) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: VAX 11/780 owners? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Does anyone here have a VAX 11/780 system that's in fairly decent shape--at least cosmetically speaking? -brian. From rws at enteract.com Wed May 2 12:08:52 2001 From: rws at enteract.com (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: VAX 11/780 owners? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, with Unibus cabinet. A little scratched but otherwise OK. On Wed, 2 May 2001, Brian Chase wrote: > Does anyone here have a VAX 11/780 system that's in fairly decent > shape--at least cosmetically speaking? Richard Schauer rws@enteract.com From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed May 2 12:13:15 2001 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: VAX 11/780 owners? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 2 May 2001, Brian Chase wrote: > Does anyone here have a VAX 11/780 system that's in fairly decent > shape--at least cosmetically speaking? Define "system". B^} I've got a VAX 11/780 CPU this is in real good shape, but I've not (yet) assembled it into a functional configuration. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From dittman at dittman.net Wed May 2 12:23:07 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:58 2005 Subject: Storageworks SBB Cases In-Reply-To: from "Vance Dereksen" at May 02, 2001 12:31:49 PM Message-ID: <200105021723.f42HN7613493@narnia.int.dittman.net> > I have a VX1 on one of my PCs. It's starting to get a bit long in the > tooth. There are faster cheaper PCI cards out there. There are faster and cheaper PCI cards, but not with support for VMS. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 2 12:31:25 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:59 2005 Subject: Multiconnect CableTamers In-Reply-To: <003601c0d30d$33dc8720$0200a8c0@marvin> References: <4.3.2.7.0.20010502090803.01dc8a30@pc> Message-ID: Shifting through the first layer of my new stuff I found a box of Multiconnect CableTamers, these claim at least to connect ethernet to IBM/ArcNet coax cabling systems. They are finger sized things with a BNC on each end. Any know what they really might do? I have a kit of 10 new in the box. From rdd at smart.net Wed May 2 12:43:29 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:59 2005 Subject: VAX 11/780 owners? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 2 May 2001, Brian Chase wrote: > Does anyone here have a VAX 11/780 system that's in fairly decent > shape--at least cosmetically speaking? What's appearance got to do with how well an 11/780 works? I'd be rather satisfied to find one with a few scratches and dings... Like many (most?) others here, I collect computers to use, play with and learn from, not for their looks or "collector's value." In other words, their hack value is what I value. :-) -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From bdc at world.std.com Wed May 2 12:41:51 2001 From: bdc at world.std.com (Brian Chase) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:59 2005 Subject: VAX 11/780 owners? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 2 May 2001, James Willing wrote: > On Wed, 2 May 2001, Brian Chase wrote: > > Does anyone here have a VAX 11/780 system that's in fairly decent > > shape--at least cosmetically speaking? > > Define "system". B^} > > I've got a VAX 11/780 CPU this is in real good shape, but I've not > (yet) assembled it into a functional configuration. Well, it could be as little of a systems as just the VAX 11/780 CPU cabinet. A book researcher from Jones and Bartlett Publishers asked me about using a VAX 11/780 image I had up on my website for a computer science book of theirs. The pic however is actually one I snagged from the Digital Equipment site a few years back. I was wondering if anyone had a clean system which they could photograph to provide a production quality image (probably a 35mm negative would be okay, or I'd imagine something with a resolution of at least 1280x1024 would be okay). I'd imagine you'd get a photo credit. Of course this would also require that you have or know someone with relatively decent photography skills. -brian. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed May 2 13:02:33 2001 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:59 2005 Subject: VAX 11/780 owners? In-Reply-To: from James Willing at "May 2, 2001 10:13:15 am" Message-ID: <200105021802.f42I2YW47770@bg-tc-ppp47.monmouth.com> > > On Wed, 2 May 2001, Brian Chase wrote: > > > Does anyone here have a VAX 11/780 system that's in fairly decent > > shape--at least cosmetically speaking? > > Define "system". B^} > > I've got a VAX 11/780 CPU this is in real good shape, but I've not > (yet) assembled it into a functional configuration. > > -jim > --- > jimw@agora.rdrop.com > The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw > Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 If anyone needs a hand or tip with these babies drop me a line. I used to be pretty good at 'em and have installed at least 20 or so of them (and 11/785's) in my DEC days. Bill -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.12 GIT d? s+:+ a+ C+++ UB++++ P+ L+ E--- W++ N++ o K++ w--- O++ M+ V++ PS+ PE Y+ PGP t 5 X R- tv++ b+ DI++ D- G e++ h---- r+++ y++++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ -- "Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie" - Dennis Miller || bpechter@shell.monmouth.com From hans.m at spc.net Wed May 2 14:15:01 2001 From: hans.m at spc.net (Hans Marosfalvy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:59 2005 Subject: RZ,nI: Claude Shannon Message-ID: <005901c0d33c$2fc65740$1a0a0a0a@spc.net> You did not fully follow your professor when s/he lectured on communications theory. Sampling an analogue signal at twice the highest frequency of interest, will result in zero output at exactly that frequency, as you identified. This effect is known as sampling uncertainty. However, if you sample an analogue signal of 0.9999999....*f(max) at 2*f(max), you will indeed get the desired result, no uncertainty there. The farther your signal to be sampled is away from f(max), the quicker the desired output signal will be available. If we just could figure out what will happen when the input frequency is h i g h e r than f(max)....... Trust Shannon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010502/404501b6/attachment.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 2 13:47:03 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:59 2005 Subject: Finds... (mainly Heathkit 3400) In-Reply-To: <3AEF77A1.8C7862A2@rain.org> from "Marvin" at May 1, 1 07:57:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1112 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010502/0d124c7c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 2 14:35:14 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:59 2005 Subject: Multiconnect CableTamers In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at May 2, 1 10:31:25 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 848 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010502/7fcce9df/attachment.ksh From chomko at greenbelt.com Wed May 2 14:45:29 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:59 2005 Subject: Free: HP 9000/350 & monitor (working) References: <200105011955.MAA14822@opus.allegro.com> <20010502090923.C8094@mail.er-grp.com> Message-ID: <3AF063D9.AE531C97@greenbelt.com> jarkko@mail.er-grp.com wrote: > On Tue, May 01, 2001 at 12:55:41PM -0700, Stan Sieler wrote: > > Hi, > > > > If anyone wants a working HP 9000/350 & color monitor, please let > > me know. It runs HP-UX 8.0 (IIRC), and X-Windows. > > > > Yes, I'd want it but.. > > > It's in Cupertino, CA, and time is of the essence. > > And it seems spoken for and the shipping costs would kill me. Again. > > The 350 is an interesting beast because it's one of the two 300-series > models which uses an HP MMU and not the standard Motorola parts. The > other model is the 320. I gots to get me one of those. > > -- > jht, looking for all things HP I have an HP plotter you can have. All I would want is shipping charges I'll get you the model number, if you're interested. eric From ip500 at home.com Wed May 2 15:29:04 2001 From: ip500 at home.com (ip500) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:59 2005 Subject: General Robotics Micro? GRC 11/X3 Message-ID: <3AF06E10.5F59DB28@home.com> Interesting find at the VaTech auction last weekend. I never heard of General Robotics Corp ... anyone else?? The size of a rack mount micro but it uses DEC PDP-11 cards [has a M-8186] plus a bunch of GR propriatary cards. Odd but neat. Any info always appreciated. Craig From gen at webline.plus.com Wed May 2 15:30:39 2001 From: gen at webline.plus.com (gen) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:59 2005 Subject: UK Computer Collection Message-ID: <02d001c0d348$2b1cfd00$0750fea9@dellt600> Hi there I'm based in the UK with a collection of pristine classic computers to sell and have been asked to post the full details to this list. It's a substantial collection of 'antique' computers, mostly 'first editions' of systems such as Apple, IBM, Sirius, Apricot, Macintosh, Epson, etc. These are not old and used, they are mostly in pristine condition in their original boxes with manuals, software and literature. The only reason I'm selling is that I have to move house and will not have enough room any more. If you are interested please let me know. I am open to offers for the whole collection but, realistically, I expect people will be more interested in one or several individual items. In that case I'll probably hang on to some things. Please make me an offer on any items you are interested in . You would need to collect or pay for carriage from NW London (UK). Please also pass this on to anyone else who may be interested. Thank you. It's a long list, you have been warned!.... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- APPLE MACINTOSH ================ Hardware: ------------ Apple Macintosh 128K computer including keyboard and mouse Apple Macintosh 512K computer including keyboard and mouse Macintosh external disk drive Apple Macintosh keyboard (128K style) Apple Macintosh mouse (128K style) Mac Daisywheel Connection Apple Macintosh Plus including keyboard and mouse Apple Imagewriter Printer Apple Macintosh II including keyboard and mouse Apple Macintosh II monitor Apple Macintosh LC3 including keyboard and mouse Apple LaserWriter IINT Bernoulli removable dual disk drive Software: ----------- MacPascal MacTerminal MacWrite x 2 MacPaint x 2 Microsoft File Introduction to Macintosh Cassette Test Drive a Macintosh Cassette Quartet 128K Mac Integrated Software Program CricketGraph for Mac or SE or Mac II, required external drive or hard disk CricketDraw for MacPlus, SE or Mac II Cricket presents 2.0 for MacPlus, SE, Portable, Mac II, requires 1MB RAM, 2 drives & Sys6.0 Lotus 1-2-3 for MacPlus, SE, SE/30, Classic, LC, SI, Portable or Mac II, requires hard drive and 2MB RAM for System 6.04, 3MB for System 7 Ashton Tate Full Impact Software for MacPlus, requires 2 drives, System 4.1 and 1MB RAM or 2MB with MultiFinder FullWrite Professional for MacPlus, SE, II, requires 1x800K drive + hard drive and 1MB RAM or 2MB with MultiFinder dBase Mac for MacPlus, SE, II, requires 1x 800K drive + hard drive, System 4.1, Finder 5.5 Vicom Communications Software, Viewdata and ASCII Wingz Spreadsheet for MacPlus, SE, II, requires System 4.1, Finder 5.5, 2 drives, 1MB memory or 2MB with MultiFinder. Macintosh Learning Series - Learn to Use HyperCard - Beginning HyperCard Omnis 3 Plus for 512K, MacPlus, MacXL Omnis 5 for MacPlus to IIcx, requires hard disk and 1MB memory or 2MB with MultiFinder. MacForth Trivia Arcade Manuals: ----------- Macintosh MacWrite x 4 MultiFinder User's Guide AppleLink Users Guide 5.1 AppleLink Users Guide 6.0 AppleLink Users Guide 6.0 Guide to New Features AppleLink AppleLink 5.0 Hypercard User's Guide Macintosh New Features Update (for MacPlus or Mac II) [Many more - not yet listed] Miscellaneous technical information Other: -------- Apple limited edition working model of delivery lorry, with logo on side, from Apple Cupertino, matching pair Original Mac Carry Cases for compact Macs Original Mac logo beach towels from Apple HQ Cupertino (unused!) Ribbons for Apple Imagewriter Apple Logo carrier bags Test Drive a Macintosh luggage tags Test Drive a Macintosh booking sheets Sales literature APPLE ===== Hardware: ------------ Apple //c computer x 3 Apple //c disk drive x 2 Apple //c monitor x 3 Apple //c monitor stand x 2 Apple //c colour modulators x 3 Apple //c mouse Apple //e computer Cub colour monitor for Apple, Microvitec 1446, 14 inch screen Apple //e 80 Column Cards x 3 Apple II DOS Card x 4 Apple II or //e DOS 3.3 System Master Pack with card and disk Apple II Super Serial Card for II and //e Apple Colour Card Apple Tabs Card Apple Microsoft RAM Card Apple Language Card Cirtech Z80 CP/M Card for Apple //e Symbiotic card x 2 Epson Apple II Interface Card and Cable Epson Apple II Intelligent Parallel Interface Card Software: ------------ Appleworks for the Apple //e or //c Zardax Wordprocessor Bookeeper II Superbase Collossus 4 Chess for Apple II Dunzhin Blackjack Manuals: ----------- Apple Pascal Apple Disk II Installation DOS Users Manual ProDos Users Manual DOS Programmers Manual 80 Column Text Card Manual Imagewriter User Manual Beneath Apple DOS Apple II Supplement to Owners Manual [Many more - not yet listed] Miscellaneous technical information Other: -------- Apple //c Carry Case Apple limited edition working model of delivery lorry, with logo on side, from Apple Cupertino, matching pair Apple II motherboard (untested) Apple Logo carrier bags Sales literature SIRIUS ===== Hardware: ------------ 2 x Sirius Computer with twin floppy 5.25" drives, parallel port, serial port 2 x Sirius Monitor 2 x Sirius multifunction keyboard including numeric keypad and function keys Sirius RAM cards ( x 3) Sirius Z80 card Software: ----------- Wordstar (Pulsar) Sirius Audio Toolkit Manuals: ----------- Hardware Manuals Operating Systems Configuration Guide MS-DOS The Wordstar Users Reference Manual The Wordstar Training Guide x 2 Reference Cards [Many more - not yet listed] Miscellaneous technical information Other: -------- New 5.25" floppy disks in plastic cases Sales literature APRICOT ======== Hardware: ------------ Apricot Computer with twin 3.5" floppy drives, serial port, parallel port Apricot multifunction keyboard including numeric keypad and function keys. Apricot monitor Apricot 256K memory board Software: ----------- Lotus 1-2-3 Lotus Symphony Friday! Micromodeller Manuals: ----------- Apricot Manuals Apricot SuperCalc / SuperPlanner Apricot Configurator Guide Apricot Concurrent CP/M User Guide [Many more - not yet listed] Miscellaneous technical information Other: -------- New 5.25" floppy disks in plastic cases Sales literature EPSON HX20 ========== Hardware: ------------ Epson HX20 Portable Computer Software: ------------ Intext Wordprocessing Text Editor with Comms PX8 Business Simulations Portable Cardbox Plus (x3) Manuals: ----------- Epson HX20 Technical Manual Using and programming the Epson HX20 Portable Computer HX-20 Technical Support Manual [Many more - not yet listed] Miscellaneous technical information Other: -------- Epson Roll Paper for HX-20 Sales literature BBC === Hardware: ------------ MicroDrive Software: ----------- Tapes: Killer Gorilla (Program Power) Artist 3 (Visual Learning Ltd) Acornsoft: (all in pristine unopened shrink-wrapped sealed packets) Hopper Missile Base Word Sequencing x 2 Business Games Monsters Free Fall Rocket Raid Graphs and Charts Arcade Action Disks: Disk Pack 4 Demo: Number Painter Words Words Words Number Puzzler Squeeze Podd. Castle Quest Demo (Micro Power) Magic Mushrooms Demonstration Disk (Acornsoft) Acornsoft Ltd Demonstration Disk Six Figure Serial Number Data for the BBC Microcomputer (2 disks) Manuals: ----------- Games BBC Computers Play Creative Graphics on the BBC Microcomputer (Acornsoft) Graphics and Charts on the BBC Microcomputer (Acornsoft) BBC Micro Graphics and Sound Discovering BBC Micro Machine Code - How to get more Speed and Power Computer Graphics with 29 Ready-to-run Programs Electronically Speaking: Computer Speech Generation Other: -------- Cassette cables x 2 Sales literature ELECTRON ========= Software: ------------ (Tapes all in pristine unopened shrink-wrapped sealed packets) Meteors Introductory Cassette Personal Money Management Draughts and Reversi x 2 Manuals: ----------- Electron Service Manual Acorn Electron User Guide The Electron Book BASIC, Sound and Graphics The Working Electron: A Library of Practical Programs The Electron Programmer Start Programming with the Electron x 3 Assembly Language Programming on the Electron Other: -------- Cassette cables x 2 Sales literature IBM ==== Hardware: ------------ IBM PC with floppy drives IBM PC monitor IBM keyboard IBM memory board with Asynch serial port (memory not fitted) IBM Serial card Software 5.25": ------------------- IBM System disk and manuals Lotus 1-2-3 1-2-3- Report Writer Symphony IBM Asynch Communications Support 2 x Ashton Tate MultiMate II for PC, XT, AT, requires double sided drives, 384K RAM, DOS v 2.0-3.2 WordPerfect PlanPerfect v 5 for PC, XT, AT, PS/2, requires DOS 2.0, 384K RAM, 2 drives WordPerfect Office v 2 for PC Networks, requires DOS 3.0, 512K Memory WordPerfect Library v 2 WordPerfect MathPlan Spreadsheet v 3 WordPerfect DataPerfect v 2 WordPerfect DrawPerfect for PC, XT, AT, PS/2 requires 384K RAM, DOS 2.0, 2 HD disk drives, graphics adaptor and monitor WordPerfect Shell 3.0 for PC, XT, AT, PS/2 requires 384K RAM, DOS 2.0, 2 HD disk drives, graphics adaptor and monitor dB Publisher v 1 dBXL requires DOS 2.0, 410K free RAM, i.e. 512K RAM, 2 drives WordPerfect Executive 1987 requires DOS 2.0, PS/2, 512K memory, 2x 360K drives or 1 x 720K drive Migent Ability, requires 384K RAM and 2 floppy drives Migent Account-Ability requires 256K RAM and 2 floppies 2 x SMART Software System Integrated Spreadsheet, Business Graphics, Database Manager, Wordprocessing, Time Manager and Communications for PC,XT,AT, requires DOS 2.0, 320K RAM, 2 ds drives Samna One Word Wordprocessing for PC, XT, AT requires DOS 3.0, 380K RAM, 2 disk drives, (one 1.2MB) Carbon Copy Remote Communications Software for PC, requires 256K RAM and Hayes compatible modem R:Base for PC, XT, AT, PS/2, requires DOS 2.0, 512K RAM, hard disk. Dr. Solomon's Anti Virus Toolkit v 5.18 Borland Sidekick for PC, XT, AT, requires 128K RAM, DOS 1.0, one drive Revelation for PC, requires 320K Microsoft Rbase Tutorial for PC, XT, AT requires 320K memory, DOS 2.0, 2x ds drives or 1x ds + hd Paperback Writer requires 128K RAM, 1dd, DOS 2, 80 column monitor Borland Turbo Prolog for PC, XT, AT requires DOS 2.0, 384K RAM MenuMaker requires 1 x dd 360K, 128K RAM, DOS 2.1 Word for Word Professional 4.0 Document Conversion System Pink Turbo CAD v 1.5, requires 2 x 256K disk drives, colour graphics monitor Delta 4 Dunzhin Asylum Blackjack PC-File:db Keystroke Knowledge Local Government v 4.01 Software 3.5": ----------------- Ashton Tate MultiMate II requires DOS 3.30 or OS/2 Ashton Tate Framework III v 1.1 Wordstar 5.5 for PC, XT, AT WordPerfect Presentations v 2 for DOS 3.0, requires 286+, 490K free memory, 6MB free hard disk space (14MB full), graphics adaptor Stac Stacker v 2 data compression software for DOS 3,4,5, requires 512K RAM WordPerfect PlanPerfect v 5 for PC, XT, AT, PS/2, requires DOS 2.0, 384K RAM, 2 drives WordPerfect Executive 1987 requires DOS 2.0, PS/2, 512K memory, 2x 360K drives or 1 x 720K drive Manuals: ----------- IBM Basic Manual [Many more - not yet listed] Miscellaneous technical information Other: -------- IBM TABS dongle New 5.25" floppy disks in plastic cases Sales literature PRINTERS ======== Hardware: ------------ Epson RX80 FT+ Epson cut sheet feeder Epson Tractor feed Epson LX80 printer Epson RX F/T new Printhead TEC F10-40 daisy wheel printer, wide carriage, serial interface Manuals: ----------- Epson FX80 Manual Tec F10 Printer Manual x 2 Miscellaneous technical information Other: -------- Ribbons for Epson RX80 FT+ Ribbons for Epson LX80 Ribbons for Tec Printer Daisywheels for Tec F10 Printer Sales literature OTHER ======= Hardware: ------------ Sirius plain paper desktop photocopier (Canon) Sanyo Slimline cassette player Pace modem Hayes modem Apple 'modem eliminator' Epson power supply Dragon monitor cable VIC 20 monitor cable Software: ------------ Commodore 64 tape - Dr Who Demo CBM 64 (Program Power) VIC-20 Presentation Programs tape - Typing Trainer Maths Maze Mortsave Blue Meanies Spellbound Biorhythms A cassette with handwritten label 'Dragon Training Tape' A cassette with handwritten label 'BBC Training Tape' Software for Windows 3.0/3.1: ------------------------------------- CA Cricket Image for 286/386, requires 2MB RAM CA Cricket Paint requires 2 MB RAM, mouse, recommends 386 + 2MB RAM Stac Stacker v 2 data compression software for Windows 3.0, requires 512K RAM HP Dashboard for 286, 386, 486 requires 1.5 MB free hard disk space, 1.44 disk drive, Windows 3.1 Lotus Organiser for Windows 3.0, requires 286, 1.5 MB hard disk, VGA monitor, mouse Lotus Approach database v2 for Windows 3.0, requires 286, 2MB RAM, mouse WordPerfect 5.2 for Windows 3.0, requires 386, 4MB RAM, hard drive and floppy WordPerfect 6.0 for Windows 3.1, requires 386, VGA, 32MB hard disk space, 6MB RAM, mouse WordPerfect Presentations v2 for Windows 3.1, requires 386+, DOS 3.1, 9-12 MB hard disk space, 4MB RAM, EGA/VGA graphics adapter, mouse. Borland Quattro Pro v 6.0 spreadsheet and graphics for Windows 3.1, requires 386, 4MB RAM, 10-28 MB hard disk space. Borland Office for Windows requires 386, 4MB RAM, 16MB hard disk space, EGA/VGA, mouse Quattro Pro for Windows 3.0 v 5.0 Workgroup edition WordPerfect v 6.0 for Windows 3.0 Workgroup enabled Paradox v 4.5 for Windows 3.1, Workgroup edition Software for Windows 95: ------------------------------- Borland Intrabuilder, requires 486, CD, 12MB RAM, 30MB hard drive, VGA + graphics adapter, TCP/IP internet comms Other: -------- Magazines (many - not yet listed) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From marvin at rain.org Wed May 2 16:20:10 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:59 2005 Subject: Finds... (mainly Heathkit 3400) References: Message-ID: <3AF07A0A.CADD41D4@rain.org> Tony Duell wrote: > > > ajp166 wrote: > > > > > > What about us Techs... VHF and above! > > > > UPGRADE!!! With the Morse code requirement having dropped to 5 WPM, the code > > ceases to be a problem. And the written tests are just not that hard with a > > Easy for you to say.... True enough! But you also need to know that in the US, the amateur written exams are multiple guess with all the questions and answers available in advance of the test. The written tests themselves should pose no surprises ... assuming some advance study :). And over here, the 13 wpm and 20 wpm requirements have been removed (arguably for better or worse). > We all are good at different things. Next time you have a problem with > some p[iece of classic hardware, I will remind you how easy (it is for > me...) to glance at the schematic and spot the faulty component, OK :-) Okay ... got a classic computer also known as Ms. PacMan here. One of these days I'm going to dig into it again, but the logic is so circular I am really not sure the bad component(s) can be found without a signature or logic analyzer. Well, you didn't say it had to be easy :). Seriously though, I really don't know how to even start troubleshooting that type of circuit. IIRC, it is similar to some of the microcode circular logic circuits on the PDP 11-45. Ouch! From halarewich at look.ca Wed May 2 16:24:45 2001 From: halarewich at look.ca (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:59 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage Message-ID: <3AF07B1D.5C9922F0@look.ca> Hello all: Last night, tuesday I was waching Undercurrants on CBC Newsworld (canadian brodcasting company 24 hr news station ) When I saw a story about the Compiter Garage in Beverton Oregon, USA very informative segment kudos to the proprietor (can't remember name right now) thanx Chris -- # Netscape POP3 State File # This is a generated file! Do not edit. From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Wed May 2 16:32:03 2001 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Leo Rachor Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:59 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage In-Reply-To: <3AF07B1D.5C9922F0@look.ca> Message-ID: His name is Jim Willing... Congrats Jim! Your famous again! George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Wed, 2 May 2001, Chris Halarewich wrote: > Hello all: > Last night, tuesday I was waching Undercurrants on CBC Newsworld > (canadian brodcasting company 24 hr news station ) When I saw a story > about the Compiter Garage in Beverton Oregon, USA very informative > segment kudos to the proprietor (can't remember name right now) > thanx > Chris > > -- > # Netscape POP3 State File > # This is a generated file! Do not edit. > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 2 16:34:53 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:59 2005 Subject: Finds... (mainly Heathkit 3400) In-Reply-To: <3AF07A0A.CADD41D4@rain.org> from "Marvin" at May 2, 1 02:20:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3517 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010502/ce8b4cbb/attachment.ksh From azog at azog.org Wed May 2 17:07:56 2001 From: azog at azog.org (Billy D'Augustine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:59 2005 Subject: PMC MicroMate Message-ID: <002c01c0d354$579b8f20$0a00a8c0@azog> Got an interesting mail from a fellow who has a "PMC MicroMate" CP/M computer, and was wondering about it. The specs are neat - it's a fast Z80 (4MHz), but has 128k of RAM (so I guess it's CP/M-Plus, or a heavily modified version of 2.2), an internal 400k floppy and some sort of interface for three external drives. Am asking for details on the external drive interface. The machine doesn't sound familiar to me, but it sounds like a neat little thing - it's just a boxen, you need a TTY. --- azog at azog dot org Fools! You have no possible idea of what power you toy with! Release the pig! From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed May 2 17:57:28 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:59 2005 Subject: General Robotics Micro? GRC 11/X3 In-Reply-To: ip500 "General Robotics Micro? GRC 11/X3" (May 2, 16:29) References: <3AF06E10.5F59DB28@home.com> Message-ID: <10105022357.ZM3689@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 2, 16:29, ip500 wrote: > Interesting find at the VaTech auction last weekend. I never heard of > General Robotics Corp ... anyone else?? The size of a rack mount micro > but it uses DEC PDP-11 cards [has a M-8186] plus a bunch of GR > propriatary > cards. Odd but neat. Any info always appreciated. > Craig GR made a few cards for QBus systems. I have a GR "RX02" which has a 50-pin Shugart interface and works with ordinary 8" drives. It's a dual-height card. It's also capable of handling dual-sided "RX03" format, and I think up to 4 drives. There's an on-board bootstrap option. Plessey made (badged?) a very similar (if not identical) board. I think I have the manual somewhere. These boards were quite popular. I've seen one built into a single 8" drive case with an M8186 (11/23) and an M8047 (MXV11-A). I also have a GR DHV11, 16-channel QBus multiplexer, with channel zero mapped to the console address. It's a quad-high and needs a special 3U-high distribution box, which has (IIRC) three stacked PCBs containing a Z80 and some "stuff". Unfortunately mine is faulty :-( I don't have any docs, all I know is that it appears at addresses 160020-160036 (DHV11) and 170500-170502 (DM11 multiplexer) as well as 177560-177566 (console). According to my register dump, that is. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From menadeau at mediaone.net Wed May 2 18:30:44 2001 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:59 2005 Subject: PMC MicroMate References: <002c01c0d354$579b8f20$0a00a8c0@azog> Message-ID: <072501c0d35f$ef52aaa0$0c01a8c0@michaelnadeau> PMC made a crappy TRS-80 Model I clone called, I think, the PMC-80, but this is obviously a different machine. I'll see if I can come up with anything on it. --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Billy D'Augustine" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 6:07 PM Subject: PMC MicroMate > Got an interesting mail from a fellow who has a "PMC MicroMate" CP/M > computer, and was wondering about it. The specs are neat - it's a fast Z80 > (4MHz), but has 128k of RAM (so I guess it's CP/M-Plus, or a heavily > modified version of 2.2), an internal 400k floppy and some sort of interface > for three external drives. Am asking for details on the external drive > interface. The machine doesn't sound familiar to me, but it sounds like a > neat little thing - it's just a boxen, you need a TTY. > --- > azog at azog dot org > Fools! You have no possible idea of what power you toy with! Release the > pig! > > From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed May 2 18:56:11 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:59 2005 Subject: PMC MicroMate In-Reply-To: <002c01c0d354$579b8f20$0a00a8c0@azog> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010502165224.00a079d0@mail.zipcon.net> http://www.google.com/search?q=PMC+Micromate http://www.geocities.com/~compcloset/PMCMicroMate.htm http://www.gaby.de/sysdisk.htm Don Maslin has Bootdisk of CPM 3.0 for those (or so the sysdisk page claims) it was manufactured by personal Micro Computers, of the PMC-80 and PMC-81 fame (tandy model 1 compatables if i remember correctly) At 06:07 PM 5/2/01 -0400, you wrote: >Got an interesting mail from a fellow who has a "PMC MicroMate" CP/M >computer, and was wondering about it. The specs are neat - it's a fast Z80 >(4MHz), but has 128k of RAM (so I guess it's CP/M-Plus, or a heavily >modified version of 2.2), an internal 400k floppy and some sort of interface >for three external drives. Am asking for details on the external drive >interface. The machine doesn't sound familiar to me, but it sounds like a >neat little thing - it's just a boxen, you need a TTY. >--- >azog at azog dot org >Fools! You have no possible idea of what power you toy with! Release the >pig! From broth at heathers.stdio.com Wed May 2 17:53:10 2001 From: broth at heathers.stdio.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:59 2005 Subject: DEC finds and wants Message-ID: <01050219094202.00808@fatty> OK. It looks like it will take a while to sort through this stuff from my last haul but I will post some of the more interesting items(to me anyway) as I run across them. A few of the items were from Bell Atlantic(Sorbus) and deal with maintenence and diagnostics. One box I found included a TK50, RX50, and 9-track tape diagnostic software. I know there is a manual that goes with this in the pile somewhere as well. The media is labled "Pro-Cure/OSD V1.3" Anyone familiar with this? I also have found many diagnostic dongles for serial/ethernet diags. Also lots of color sales brochures on pretty much the whole VAX line. I should have my website back up in a week or so completely redesigned. I will slowly be adding pictures ands scans from many pieces in my collection. I am inviting any of the 'DEC archivers' from the list to feel free to contact me if I can fill in any of the holes in software or docs. Recent additions are a VAX 4000/200 (this weekend) and beleive it or not I think I found a CR11. If anyone can help me, I am still looking for a front panel for my DSSI microVAX 3800. Someone on the list said they had one but I can't remember who. Also I need a front panel for a PDP8a. Unfortunately it was wiped out during the trip back. Brian. -- Brian Roth - System Administrator www.webwirz.com - Old Computer Repository Preoccupation is my main occupation..... From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed May 2 19:43:56 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:59 2005 Subject: PMC MicroMate Message-ID: <008001c0d36a$669a8290$96769a8d@ajp166> From: Michael Nadeau >PMC made a crappy TRS-80 Model I clone called, I think, the PMC-80, but this >is obviously a different machine. I'll see if I can come up with anything on >it. Crappy TRS-80???? The only thing they didn't copy were the shortfalls and bugs! I think the L-systems (aka Ldos people) did it better. Allison From rcini at optonline.net Wed May 2 19:46:50 2001 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:59 2005 Subject: FW: Computer collection Message-ID: Hello, all: I was contacted by this chap in NW London about a boat load of classic inventory. I've put my bid in for certain items already. Contact Gen directly for more specifics. Rich -----Original Message----- From: gen [mailto:gen@webline.plus.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 4:43 PM To: Cini, Richard Subject: Re: Computer collection Hi Rich Thanks for your reply. I've included a complete list here in case there is anything at all you're interested in... As I said before, I have a substantial collection of 'antique' computers, mostly 'first editions' of systems such as Apple, IBM, Sirius, Apricot, Macintosh, Epson, etc. These are not old and used, they are mostly in pristine condition in their original boxes with manuals, software and literature. The only reason I'm selling is that I have to move house and will not have enough room any more. If you are interested please let me know. I am open to offers for the whole collection but, realistically, I expect people will be more interested in one or several individual items. In that case I'll probably hang on to some things. Please make me an offer on any items you are interested in . You would need to collect or pay for carriage from NW London (UK). Please also pass this on to anyone else who may be interested. Thank you. It's a long list, you have been warned!.... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- APPLE MACINTOSH ================ Hardware: ------------ Apple Macintosh 128K computer including keyboard and mouse Apple Macintosh 512K computer including keyboard and mouse Macintosh external disk drive Apple Macintosh keyboard (128K style) Apple Macintosh mouse (128K style) Mac Daisywheel Connection Apple Macintosh Plus including keyboard and mouse Apple Imagewriter Printer Apple Macintosh II including keyboard and mouse Apple Macintosh II monitor Apple Macintosh LC3 including keyboard and mouse Apple LaserWriter IINT Bernoulli removable dual disk drive Software: ----------- MacPascal MacTerminal MacWrite x 2 MacPaint x 2 Microsoft File Introduction to Macintosh Cassette Test Drive a Macintosh Cassette Quartet 128K Mac Integrated Software Program CricketGraph for Mac or SE or Mac II, required external drive or hard disk CricketDraw for MacPlus, SE or Mac II Cricket presents 2.0 for MacPlus, SE, Portable, Mac II, requires 1MB RAM, 2 drives & Sys6.0 Lotus 1-2-3 for MacPlus, SE, SE/30, Classic, LC, SI, Portable or Mac II, requires hard drive and 2MB RAM for System 6.04, 3MB for System 7 Ashton Tate Full Impact Software for MacPlus, requires 2 drives, System 4.1 and 1MB RAM or 2MB with MultiFinder FullWrite Professional for MacPlus, SE, II, requires 1x800K drive + hard drive and 1MB RAM or 2MB with MultiFinder dBase Mac for MacPlus, SE, II, requires 1x 800K drive + hard drive, System 4.1, Finder 5.5 Vicom Communications Software, Viewdata and ASCII Wingz Spreadsheet for MacPlus, SE, II, requires System 4.1, Finder 5.5, 2 drives, 1MB memory or 2MB with MultiFinder. Macintosh Learning Series - Learn to Use HyperCard - Beginning HyperCard Omnis 3 Plus for 512K, MacPlus, MacXL Omnis 5 for MacPlus to IIcx, requires hard disk and 1MB memory or 2MB with MultiFinder. MacForth Trivia Arcade Manuals: ----------- Macintosh MacWrite x 4 MultiFinder User's Guide AppleLink Users Guide 5.1 AppleLink Users Guide 6.0 AppleLink Users Guide 6.0 Guide to New Features AppleLink AppleLink 5.0 Hypercard User's Guide Macintosh New Features Update (for MacPlus or Mac II) [Many more - not yet listed] Miscellaneous technical information Other: -------- Apple limited edition working model of delivery lorry, with logo on side, from Apple Cupertino, matching pair Original Mac Carry Cases for compact Macs Original Mac logo beach towels from Apple HQ Cupertino (unused!) Ribbons for Apple Imagewriter Apple Logo carrier bags Test Drive a Macintosh luggage tags Test Drive a Macintosh booking sheets Sales literature APPLE ===== Hardware: ------------ Apple //c computer x 3 Apple //c disk drive x 2 Apple //c monitor x 3 Apple //c monitor stand x 2 Apple //c colour modulators x 3 Apple //c mouse Apple //e computer Cub colour monitor for Apple, Microvitec 1446, 14 inch screen Apple //e 80 Column Cards x 3 Apple II DOS Card x 4 Apple II or //e DOS 3.3 System Master Pack with card and disk Apple II Super Serial Card for II and //e Apple Colour Card Apple Tabs Card Apple Microsoft RAM Card Apple Language Card Cirtech Z80 CP/M Card for Apple //e Symbiotic card x 2 Epson Apple II Interface Card and Cable Epson Apple II Intelligent Parallel Interface Card Software: ------------ Appleworks for the Apple //e or //c Zardax Wordprocessor Bookeeper II Superbase Collossus 4 Chess for Apple II Dunzhin Blackjack Manuals: ----------- Apple Pascal Apple Disk II Installation DOS Users Manual ProDos Users Manual DOS Programmers Manual 80 Column Text Card Manual Imagewriter User Manual Beneath Apple DOS Apple II Supplement to Owners Manual [Many more - not yet listed] Miscellaneous technical information Other: -------- Apple //c Carry Case Apple limited edition working model of delivery lorry, with logo on side, from Apple Cupertino, matching pair Apple II motherboard (untested) Apple Logo carrier bags Sales literature SIRIUS ===== Hardware: ------------ 2 x Sirius Computer with twin floppy 5.25" drives, parallel port, serial port 2 x Sirius Monitor 2 x Sirius multifunction keyboard including numeric keypad and function keys Sirius RAM cards ( x 3) Sirius Z80 card Software: ----------- Wordstar (Pulsar) Sirius Audio Toolkit Manuals: ----------- Hardware Manuals Operating Systems Configuration Guide MS-DOS The Wordstar Users Reference Manual The Wordstar Training Guide x 2 Reference Cards [Many more - not yet listed] Miscellaneous technical information Other: -------- New 5.25" floppy disks in plastic cases Sales literature APRICOT ======== Hardware: ------------ Apricot Computer with twin 3.5" floppy drives, serial port, parallel port Apricot multifunction keyboard including numeric keypad and function keys. Apricot monitor Apricot 256K memory board Software: ----------- Lotus 1-2-3 Lotus Symphony Friday! Micromodeller Manuals: ----------- Apricot Manuals Apricot SuperCalc / SuperPlanner Apricot Configurator Guide Apricot Concurrent CP/M User Guide [Many more - not yet listed] Miscellaneous technical information Other: -------- New 5.25" floppy disks in plastic cases Sales literature EPSON HX20 ========== Hardware: ------------ Epson HX20 Portable Computer Software: ------------ Intext Wordprocessing Text Editor with Comms PX8 Business Simulations Portable Cardbox Plus (x3) Manuals: ----------- Epson HX20 Technical Manual Using and programming the Epson HX20 Portable Computer HX-20 Technical Support Manual [Many more - not yet listed] Miscellaneous technical information Other: -------- Epson Roll Paper for HX-20 Sales literature BBC === Hardware: ------------ MicroDrive Software: ----------- Tapes: Killer Gorilla (Program Power) Artist 3 (Visual Learning Ltd) Acornsoft: (all in pristine unopened shrink-wrapped sealed packets) Hopper Missile Base Word Sequencing x 2 Business Games Monsters Free Fall Rocket Raid Graphs and Charts Arcade Action Disks: Disk Pack 4 Demo: Number Painter Words Words Words Number Puzzler Squeeze Podd. Castle Quest Demo (Micro Power) Magic Mushrooms Demonstration Disk (Acornsoft) Acornsoft Ltd Demonstration Disk Six Figure Serial Number Data for the BBC Microcomputer (2 disks) Manuals: ----------- Games BBC Computers Play Creative Graphics on the BBC Microcomputer (Acornsoft) Graphics and Charts on the BBC Microcomputer (Acornsoft) BBC Micro Graphics and Sound Discovering BBC Micro Machine Code - How to get more Speed and Power Computer Graphics with 29 Ready-to-run Programs Electronically Speaking: Computer Speech Generation Other: -------- Cassette cables x 2 Sales literature ELECTRON ========= Software: ------------ (Tapes all in pristine unopened shrink-wrapped sealed packets) Meteors Introductory Cassette Personal Money Management Draughts and Reversi x 2 Manuals: ----------- Electron Service Manual Acorn Electron User Guide The Electron Book BASIC, Sound and Graphics The Working Electron: A Library of Practical Programs The Electron Programmer Start Programming with the Electron x 3 Assembly Language Programming on the Electron Other: -------- Cassette cables x 2 Sales literature IBM ==== Hardware: ------------ IBM PC with floppy drives IBM PC monitor IBM keyboard IBM memory board with Asynch serial port (memory not fitted) IBM Serial card Software 5.25": ------------------- IBM System disk and manuals Lotus 1-2-3 1-2-3- Report Writer Symphony IBM Asynch Communications Support 2 x Ashton Tate MultiMate II for PC, XT, AT, requires double sided drives, 384K RAM, DOS v 2.0-3.2 WordPerfect PlanPerfect v 5 for PC, XT, AT, PS/2, requires DOS 2.0, 384K RAM, 2 drives WordPerfect Office v 2 for PC Networks, requires DOS 3.0, 512K Memory WordPerfect Library v 2 WordPerfect MathPlan Spreadsheet v 3 WordPerfect DataPerfect v 2 WordPerfect DrawPerfect for PC, XT, AT, PS/2 requires 384K RAM, DOS 2.0, 2 HD disk drives, graphics adaptor and monitor WordPerfect Shell 3.0 for PC, XT, AT, PS/2 requires 384K RAM, DOS 2.0, 2 HD disk drives, graphics adaptor and monitor dB Publisher v 1 dBXL requires DOS 2.0, 410K free RAM, i.e. 512K RAM, 2 drives WordPerfect Executive 1987 requires DOS 2.0, PS/2, 512K memory, 2x 360K drives or 1 x 720K drive Migent Ability, requires 384K RAM and 2 floppy drives Migent Account-Ability requires 256K RAM and 2 floppies 2 x SMART Software System Integrated Spreadsheet, Business Graphics, Database Manager, Wordprocessing, Time Manager and Communications for PC,XT,AT, requires DOS 2.0, 320K RAM, 2 ds drives Samna One Word Wordprocessing for PC, XT, AT requires DOS 3.0, 380K RAM, 2 disk drives, (one 1.2MB) Carbon Copy Remote Communications Software for PC, requires 256K RAM and Hayes compatible modem R:Base for PC, XT, AT, PS/2, requires DOS 2.0, 512K RAM, hard disk. Dr. Solomon's Anti Virus Toolkit v 5.18 Borland Sidekick for PC, XT, AT, requires 128K RAM, DOS 1.0, one drive Revelation for PC, requires 320K Microsoft Rbase Tutorial for PC, XT, AT requires 320K memory, DOS 2.0, 2x ds drives or 1x ds + hd Paperback Writer requires 128K RAM, 1dd, DOS 2, 80 column monitor Borland Turbo Prolog for PC, XT, AT requires DOS 2.0, 384K RAM MenuMaker requires 1 x dd 360K, 128K RAM, DOS 2.1 Word for Word Professional 4.0 Document Conversion System Pink Turbo CAD v 1.5, requires 2 x 256K disk drives, colour graphics monitor Delta 4 Dunzhin Asylum Blackjack PC-File:db Keystroke Knowledge Local Government v 4.01 Software 3.5": ----------------- Ashton Tate MultiMate II requires DOS 3.30 or OS/2 Ashton Tate Framework III v 1.1 Wordstar 5.5 for PC, XT, AT WordPerfect Presentations v 2 for DOS 3.0, requires 286+, 490K free memory, 6MB free hard disk space (14MB full), graphics adaptor Stac Stacker v 2 data compression software for DOS 3,4,5, requires 512K RAM WordPerfect PlanPerfect v 5 for PC, XT, AT, PS/2, requires DOS 2.0, 384K RAM, 2 drives WordPerfect Executive 1987 requires DOS 2.0, PS/2, 512K memory, 2x 360K drives or 1 x 720K drive Manuals: ----------- IBM Basic Manual [Many more - not yet listed] Miscellaneous technical information Other: -------- IBM TABS dongle New 5.25" floppy disks in plastic cases Sales literature PRINTERS ======== Hardware: ------------ Epson RX80 FT+ Epson cut sheet feeder Epson Tractor feed Epson LX80 printer Epson RX F/T new Printhead TEC F10-40 daisy wheel printer, wide carriage, serial interface Manuals: ----------- Epson FX80 Manual Tec F10 Printer Manual x 2 Miscellaneous technical information Other: -------- Ribbons for Epson RX80 FT+ Ribbons for Epson LX80 Ribbons for Tec Printer Daisywheels for Tec F10 Printer Sales literature OTHER ======= Hardware: ------------ Sirius plain paper desktop photocopier (Canon) Sanyo Slimline cassette player Pace modem Hayes modem Apple 'modem eliminator' Epson power supply Dragon monitor cable VIC 20 monitor cable Software: ------------ Commodore 64 tape - Dr Who Demo CBM 64 (Program Power) VIC-20 Presentation Programs tape - Typing Trainer Maths Maze Mortsave Blue Meanies Spellbound Biorhythms A cassette with handwritten label 'Dragon Training Tape' A cassette with handwritten label 'BBC Training Tape' Software for Windows 3.0/3.1: ------------------------------------- CA Cricket Image for 286/386, requires 2MB RAM CA Cricket Paint requires 2 MB RAM, mouse, recommends 386 + 2MB RAM Stac Stacker v 2 data compression software for Windows 3.0, requires 512K RAM HP Dashboard for 286, 386, 486 requires 1.5 MB free hard disk space, 1.44 disk drive, Windows 3.1 Lotus Organiser for Windows 3.0, requires 286, 1.5 MB hard disk, VGA monitor, mouse Lotus Approach database v2 for Windows 3.0, requires 286, 2MB RAM, mouse WordPerfect 5.2 for Windows 3.0, requires 386, 4MB RAM, hard drive and floppy WordPerfect 6.0 for Windows 3.1, requires 386, VGA, 32MB hard disk space, 6MB RAM, mouse WordPerfect Presentations v2 for Windows 3.1, requires 386+, DOS 3.1, 9-12 MB hard disk space, 4MB RAM, EGA/VGA graphics adapter, mouse. Borland Quattro Pro v 6.0 spreadsheet and graphics for Windows 3.1, requires 386, 4MB RAM, 10-28 MB hard disk space. Borland Office for Windows requires 386, 4MB RAM, 16MB hard disk space, EGA/VGA, mouse Quattro Pro for Windows 3.0 v 5.0 Workgroup edition WordPerfect v 6.0 for Windows 3.0 Workgroup enabled Paradox v 4.5 for Windows 3.1, Workgroup edition Software for Windows 95: ------------------------------- Borland Intrabuilder, requires 486, CD, 12MB RAM, 30MB hard drive, VGA + graphics adapter, TCP/IP internet comms Other: -------- Magazines (many - not yet listed) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cini, Richard" To: "'gen'" Sent: Monday, April 16, 2001 2:44 PM Subject: RE: Computer collection > Gen: > > I belong to a group of collectors with people all over the world, > and I know a few in the UK. > > If you could send be a brief inventory of what you have > (manufacturer, model and quantity) I can pass that on to the other list > members. No need to list software titles; just list computers and > accessories/add-on items. > > Thanks. > Rich > > -----Original Message----- > From: gen [mailto:gen@webline.plus.com] > Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2001 1:04 PM > To: rcini@msn.com > Subject: Computer collection > > > Hi there > > I got your email address from the internet. > > I have a substantial UK collection of 'antique' computers, mostly 'first > editions' of systems such as Apple, IBM, Sirius, Apricot, Macintosh, Epson, > etc. These are not old and used, they are in pristine condition in their > original boxes with manuals, software & literature. Would you know of > anyone > interested in buying it? I am based in the UK. > > Regards > > > > > > > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed May 2 20:25:01 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:59 2005 Subject: DEC finds and wants In-Reply-To: <01050219094202.00808@fatty> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010502182005.022a8920@208.226.86.10> At 06:53 PM 5/2/01 -0400, Brian wrote: >If anyone can help me, I am still looking for a front panel for my DSSI >microVAX >3800. Someone on the list said they had one but I can't remember who. That was me, my mail to you keeps bouncing because your ISP is paranoid about my machine sending it. (It wants me to send it through PacBell's mail server which won't work for a variety of reasons. Anyway, your mail reached me fine. So send me your US Mail address and I'll put something in the mail to you. Chad can vouch that I'm good for it :-) There are three things that I think my qualify as a "front panel" on the 3800. One is the panel that has the run/halt, reset, and three DSSI ID plug holders in it (typically I refer to that as the disk bulkhead), then there is a metal grille type panel that has a cutout for the disk bulkhead and the TK70 drive (that's what I typically refer to as the front panel), and then there is the plastic cover that covers the front of the machine and protects it from dust (which I refer to as the 'door'). I've got spare front panel. > Also I >need a front panel for a PDP8a. Unfortunately it was wiped out during the trip >back. Good luck on that one. They aren't exactly rare, but they don't turn up too often. --Chuck From fruviad at coil.com Wed May 2 21:27:57 2001 From: fruviad at coil.com (Peter Kukla) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:59 2005 Subject: Back to booting that MicroVAX... In-Reply-To: <200104260343.f3Q3h6505117@narnia.int.dittman.net> from "Eric Dittman" at Apr 25, 2001 10:43:06 PM Message-ID: <200105030227.WAA02299@bronze.coil.com> Hi all, Refresher for those who have forgotten: MicroVAX 3100/20e...I couldn't get it to boot, except into Standalone BACKUP mode. When the box boots, it reports that it's finding the tape drive, DKA300, and DKB200. I tried Eric's suggestion, but no luck. My guess is that I need to get the OS on TK50 tapes and find out whether the 2nd disk is even alive, but I have no idea where to get VMS on tape. I've been playing with intel hardware for years, but this is the first time I've ever experimented with VMS. Anyone have any suggestions as to where I could find tapes for this beast? I've been lurking for the past week or three, and obviously the folks on this list know a LOT more than I do about reviving ancient hardware! Thanks in advance... Peter Kukla Eric Dittman electronically enscribed: > > > After digesting the above output, I tried booting to DKB200. That caused > > another disk inside to spin up (definitely louder than the first, but not > > necesarily to the point of screaming "I'm dead!"), but there's obviously > > a problem: > > > > >>> BOOT DKB200 > > > > > > ?42 NOSUCHFILE > > ?06 HLT INST > > PC = 00000C66 > > This means there's no boot files on DKB200. > > You might try to see if VMS was installed > using a root directory other than SYS0. > Try B/x0000000, where x is from 0 to F. > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > -- fruviad| "You've got to be kidding! I'm wet, I'm naked, your sister is wearing @coil / my clothes, and this is all part of some evil plot to rule the world com / as a soggy chimp in my birthday suit??" - MoJo JoJo "The Powerpuff Girls" From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 2 21:46:34 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:59 2005 Subject: Back to booting that MicroVAX... In-Reply-To: <200105030227.WAA02299@bronze.coil.com> References: <200104260343.f3Q3h6505117@narnia.int.dittman.net> from "Eric Dittman" at Apr 25, 2001 10:43:06 PM Message-ID: >I tried Eric's suggestion, but no luck. My guess is that I need to get >the OS on TK50 tapes and find out whether the 2nd disk is even alive, but >I have no idea where to get VMS on tape. I've been playing with intel >hardware for years, but this is the first time I've ever experimented with >VMS. > >Anyone have any suggestions as to where I could find tapes for this beast? >I've been lurking for the past week or three, and obviously the folks on >this list know a LOT more than I do about reviving ancient hardware! Actually I recommend getting a Encompass (DECUS) Membership if you don't already have one (I think you can still get a free one). Then getting the Hobbyist CD-ROM from Montagar. You'll need the membership anyway since I really doubt you've got any license PAKs. http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/index.html Just checked, looks like Encompass membership is still free (I *really* needed to renew mine). http://www.decus.org/encompass/Membership/index.shtml They say the membership ID will be sent out via email within a week. So the sooner you get started the better probably. Once you have the ID you can get License PAK's and order the CD. You can also get CD's for versions other than V7.2 off of eBay. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dittman at dittman.net Wed May 2 22:02:23 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:59 2005 Subject: Back to booting that MicroVAX... In-Reply-To: <200105030227.WAA02299@bronze.coil.com> from "Peter Kukla" at May 02, 2001 10:27:57 PM Message-ID: <200105030302.f4332NR15599@narnia.int.dittman.net> > MicroVAX 3100/20e...I couldn't get it to boot, except into Standalone BACKUP > mode. When the box boots, it reports that it's finding the tape drive, > DKA300, and DKB200. > > I tried Eric's suggestion, but no luck. My guess is that I need to get > the OS on TK50 tapes and find out whether the 2nd disk is even alive, but > I have no idea where to get VMS on tape. I've been playing with intel > hardware for years, but this is the first time I've ever experimented with > VMS. I don't know where to get VMS on a TK50 at a reasonable price, but if you have a CDROM drive you can order the OpenVMS Hobbyist CD Media from www.montagar.com/hobbyist/. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From broth at heathers.stdio.com Wed May 2 20:56:54 2001 From: broth at heathers.stdio.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:59 2005 Subject: DEC finds and wants In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010502182005.022a8920@208.226.86.10> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010502182005.022a8920@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <01050222074203.00808@fatty> Chuck, Thanks for the response. Sorry for being so vague. What I need is the plastic front door assembly(covers the front of the box completely). and the panel with the run/halt(disk bulkhead) This machine was sadly beat up pretty good in someones hast to pry the drives out of it. I hear you on the panel. I thought I had a spare one kicking around in the chance that I would find a PDP8a. Figures I can't find it now that I have the machine. Brian Roth 7442 West Somerset Appleton, NY 14008 Thanks for your help, Brian. On Wed, 02 May 2001, you wrote: > At 06:53 PM 5/2/01 -0400, Brian wrote: > >If anyone can help me, I am still looking for a front panel for my DSSI > >microVAX > >3800. Someone on the list said they had one but I can't remember who. > > That was me, my mail to you keeps bouncing because your ISP is paranoid > about my machine sending it. (It wants me to send it through PacBell's mail > server which won't work for a variety of reasons. Anyway, your mail reached > me fine. So send me your US Mail address and I'll put something in the mail > to you. Chad can vouch that I'm good for it :-) There are three things that > I think my qualify as a "front panel" on the 3800. One is the panel that > has the run/halt, reset, and three DSSI ID plug holders in it (typically I > refer to that as the disk bulkhead), then there is a metal grille type > panel that has a cutout for the disk bulkhead and the TK70 drive (that's > what I typically refer to as the front panel), and then there is the > plastic cover that covers the front of the machine and protects it from > dust (which I refer to as the 'door'). I've got spare front panel. > > > Also I > >need a front panel for a PDP8a. Unfortunately it was wiped out during the trip > >back. > > Good luck on that one. They aren't exactly rare, but they don't turn up too > often. > --Chuck -- Brian Roth - System Administrator www.webwirz.com - Old Computer Repository Preoccupation is my main occupation..... From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed May 2 22:17:13 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:59 2005 Subject: Back to booting that MicroVAX... In-Reply-To: <200105030227.WAA02299@bronze.coil.com> References: <200104260343.f3Q3h6505117@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010502201439.02683eb0@208.226.86.10> Since you have SCSI, your best bet is to get a CD-ROM drive and a copy of VMS on CD-ROM. Then you can install VMS and any layered products for which you have PAKs (when you join DECUS they will send you, on request, PAKs for most layered products) I suggest if you have a local surplus electronics place or perhaps a PC repair center that you scrounge around for a Toshiba SCSI CD-ROM drive. They will often work in this application. --Chuck At 10:27 PM 5/2/01 -0400, you wrote: >Hi all, > >Refresher for those who have forgotten: > >MicroVAX 3100/20e...I couldn't get it to boot, except into Standalone BACKUP >mode. When the box boots, it reports that it's finding the tape drive, >DKA300, and DKB200. > >I tried Eric's suggestion, but no luck. My guess is that I need to get >the OS on TK50 tapes and find out whether the 2nd disk is even alive, but >I have no idea where to get VMS on tape. I've been playing with intel >hardware for years, but this is the first time I've ever experimented with >VMS. > >Anyone have any suggestions as to where I could find tapes for this beast? >I've been lurking for the past week or three, and obviously the folks on >this list know a LOT more than I do about reviving ancient hardware! > >Thanks in advance... > > > >Peter Kukla > > > >Eric Dittman electronically enscribed: > > > > > After digesting the above output, I tried booting to DKB200. That caused > > > another disk inside to spin up (definitely louder than the first, but not > > > necesarily to the point of screaming "I'm dead!"), but there's obviously > > > a problem: > > > > > > >>> BOOT DKB200 > > > > > > > > > ?42 NOSUCHFILE > > > ?06 HLT INST > > > PC = 00000C66 > > > > This means there's no boot files on DKB200. > > > > You might try to see if VMS was installed > > using a root directory other than SYS0. > > Try B/x0000000, where x is from 0 to F. > > -- > > Eric Dittman > > dittman@dittman.net > > > > >-- >fruviad| "You've got to be kidding! I'm wet, I'm naked, your sister is >wearing >@coil / my clothes, and this is all part of some evil plot to rule the world >com / as a soggy chimp in my birthday suit??" - MoJo JoJo "The Powerpuff >Girls" From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed May 2 22:28:46 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:59 2005 Subject: Back to booting that MicroVAX... Message-ID: <009e01c0d381$2bbf8eb0$96769a8d@ajp166> From: Eric Dittman >> MicroVAX 3100/20e...I couldn't get it to boot, except into Standalone BACKUP >> mode. When the box boots, it reports that it's finding the tape drive, >> DKA300, and DKB200. >> >> I tried Eric's suggestion, but no luck. My guess is that I need to get >> the OS on TK50 tapes and find out whether the 2nd disk is even alive, but >> I have no idea where to get VMS on tape. I've been playing with intel >> hardware for years, but this is the first time I've ever experimented with >> VMS. > >I don't know where to get VMS on a TK50 at a reasonable >price, but if you have a CDROM drive you can order the >OpenVMS Hobbyist CD Media from www.montagar.com/hobbyist/. Anyone with the cdrom can cut a tape if they have a TK50 as there is no real restriction on where the media containing VMS install comes from. However it will likely be several tapes. Am alternate method is to clone the disk (use backup/image) and send the disk (RZ25 is plenty big enough). Or the Cdrom can be copied to an inited RZ25 and the install done from there (you need two drives). The 3100 owner will have to get his own license packs, thats a matter of joining DECUS or their new name Encompass. Allison From mbg at world.std.com Wed May 2 22:33:44 2001 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:59 2005 Subject: Geek Radio Networks (was: Re: Finds... (mainly Heathkit 3400)) References: <200105020301.WAA88569@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <200105030333.XAA05541@world.std.com> >Have you seen http://www.irlp.net/? They are linking local amature radio >networks together using the internet as a backbone. Not 20 or 40 meter, >but interesting non-the-less. Heard about it for the first time today, talking with drive-time friends on the local 2m repeater. One person was quite enthused, but others were somewhat hesitant -- "It's not real ham radio, since you use the internet for the real hop" and "Why not just use your cell phone, it's no different." I checked out their web site, and am bothered by the fact that they install the software (they do) after you have installed linux on your system... I asked if the source is or would be available at some point and haven't gotten a response... I don't install any software on my linux box that I can't get the source for... and I certainly will NOT allow someone else to install binaries on it... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From claudew at videotron.ca Wed May 2 23:01:56 2001 From: claudew at videotron.ca (Claude.W) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:59 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage References: Message-ID: <001701c0d385$cbf954c0$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> Oh well... With all the exposure of computer collecting I guess this will shot the price of vintage stuff on ebay up!!! (lol!) Well it's a canadian show and they did not come and see me...I think it's even based in Montreal, but I am not sure. But then again my collection is kinda small compared to this guy...but then again, I don't really collect X86 and compatibles...unless they are something outta the ordinary.... I think it will be broadcast again this week, I will try to grab it...and tape it...heck, maybe even try to transfer it to a file or something....I think I have somekinda video grab card for a MAC called a Moonraker here somewhere...but where? I can only imagine perhaps the weird and odd machines I might have been offered for free with the exposure of going on TV...oh well...there is always my "patato chip in the shape of animals" collection that might get me on the tube...or my "survivor - in the space station" application...counting on that too.... Life goes on up north...and it's finally hot and the pool is ready... Claude Canuk Computer Collector http://computer_collector.tripod.com ----- Original Message ----- From: George Leo Rachor Jr. To: Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 5:32 PM Subject: Re: Interesting show on the Computer Garage > His name is Jim Willing... > > Congrats Jim! Your famous again! > > George > > ========================================================= > George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com > Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com > United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > > On Wed, 2 May 2001, Chris Halarewich wrote: > > > Hello all: > > Last night, tuesday I was waching Undercurrants on CBC Newsworld > > (canadian brodcasting company 24 hr news station ) When I saw a story > > about the Compiter Garage in Beverton Oregon, USA very informative > > segment kudos to the proprietor (can't remember name right now) > > thanx > > Chris > > > > -- > > # Netscape POP3 State File > > # This is a generated file! Do not edit. > > > > > > > From dittman at dittman.net Thu May 3 00:03:46 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:59 2005 Subject: Back to booting that MicroVAX... In-Reply-To: <009e01c0d381$2bbf8eb0$96769a8d@ajp166> from "ajp166" at May 02, 2001 11:28:46 PM Message-ID: <200105030503.f4353kF15960@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Anyone with the cdrom can cut a tape if they have a TK50 as there is no > real > restriction on where the media containing VMS install comes from. > However > it will likely be several tapes. The number of tapes is the reason I didn't suggest this. It would be easier to just buy a compatible CDROM drive and install from the Hobbyist CDROM. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From Mike_Mossaad at hotmail.com Thu May 3 00:16:55 2001 From: Mike_Mossaad at hotmail.com (Mike Mossaad) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:59 2005 Subject: Commodore 128D Message-ID: I am interested in purchasing your Commodore 128D computer. Please e-mail me information on it at Pete_Mossaad@hotmail.com, thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010503/6d3e4e3d/attachment.html From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu May 3 01:01:07 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:59 2005 Subject: Back to booting that MicroVAX... In-Reply-To: <200105030503.f4353kF15960@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: <009e01c0d381$2bbf8eb0$96769a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010502225758.026a0580@208.226.86.10> One of the things I did was a full install of 7.2 plus UCX (TCP/IP) and then used standalone backup to make an image copy of the system disk on to a single TK70 tape. I didn't check to see how many blocks it used however. This makes new installs really easy, boot STABACKIT from some media (in my case an RZ24 that just has that on it) and then image the tape on to the system drive. I've also got an RF30 with STABACKIT on it for DSSI only systems like my 4000/200. I've got on my list the task of creating a VAX languages CD using the LD driver. That comes later I think. --Chuck At 12:03 AM 5/3/01 -0500, you wrote: > > Anyone with the cdrom can cut a tape if they have a TK50 as there is no > > real > > restriction on where the media containing VMS install comes from. > > However > > it will likely be several tapes. > >The number of tapes is the reason I didn't suggest this. >It would be easier to just buy a compatible CDROM drive >and install from the Hobbyist CDROM. >-- >Eric Dittman >dittman@dittman.net From mranalog at home.com Thu May 3 03:36:09 2001 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:59 2005 Subject: PMC MicroMate Message-ID: <3AF11879.8A6B9640@home.com> "Billy D'Augustine" said: > Got an interesting mail from a fellow who has a "PMC MicroMate" CP/M > computer, and was wondering about it. The specs are neat - it's a fast Z80 > (4MHz), but has 128k of RAM (so I guess it's CP/M-Plus, or a heavily > modified version of 2.2), an internal 400k floppy and some sort of interface > for three external drives. Am asking for details on the external drive > interface. The machine doesn't sound familiar to me, but it sounds like a > neat little thing - it's just a boxen, you need a TTY. I just moved and things are difficult to find, but I did find my MicroMate, just couldn't find the user manual. The external disk interface is (I assume) pretty standard, consists of a PC board edge with 34 plated fingers (17 on each side) spaced .1" on center. The MicroMate system disk has a cool utility that allows you to configure any of the external drives as one of about a half dozen different CP/M disk formats. The details escape me until I find that user manual. "Michael Nadeau" said: > PMC made a crappy TRS-80 Model I clone called, I think, the PMC-80, but this > is obviously a different machine. I'll see if I can come up with anything on > it. Actually, Personal Micro Computers had just the opposite problem. They started with the PMC-80 that included a built-in cassette drive. Then they came out with the PMC-81. As I understand it, these were sold around the world with names like Color Genie, TRZ-80, etc. Then Tandy sued them. In what was the first case of firmware infringement, Tandy said that the keyboard input routine was a little too close to the original (or words to that effect). http://www.slwk.com/papers/paper3.htm That is when they came out with the PMC-101 "MicroMate". I have all three machines. Regards, --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ========================================= From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu May 3 03:42:15 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:59 2005 Subject: 1mb x 1 memory chips for printers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have around 50 or so printer memory expansion boards, ALL unpopulated. I guess they ship them blank, then the vendor installs the memory as units sell, but I don't have any chips. Where is a good place to find memory chips for printers ie 1 MB x 1 bit? (sockets are 18 pin I think, but it doesn't go into anymore detail) Given the 16 to 24 devices per board I am guessing I would buy maybe in lots of 100 or so. From mranalog at home.com Thu May 3 03:43:11 2001 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:59 2005 Subject: PMC MicroMate Message-ID: <3AF11A1F.8D3AE5CE@home.com> I said: > with names like Color Genie.... I meant to say Video Genie. --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ========================================= From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu May 3 04:26:22 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:59 2005 Subject: 1mb x 1 memory chips for printers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010503022543.01df4070@mail.zipcon.net> are these HP compatible memory boards? if so you know which manufacturer? At 01:42 AM 5/3/01 -0700, you wrote: >I have around 50 or so printer memory expansion boards, ALL unpopulated. I >guess they ship them blank, then the vendor installs the memory as units >sell, but I don't have any chips. Where is a good place to find memory >chips for printers ie 1 MB x 1 bit? (sockets are 18 pin I think, but it >doesn't go into anymore detail) Given the 16 to 24 devices per board I am >guessing I would buy maybe in lots of 100 or so. From broth at heathers.stdio.com Thu May 3 04:36:57 2001 From: broth at heathers.stdio.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:59 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage In-Reply-To: <001701c0d385$cbf954c0$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> References: <001701c0d385$cbf954c0$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> Message-ID: <01050305374604.00808@fatty> Claude, What is a Canuk? Brian. On Thu, 03 May 2001, you wrote: > Oh well... > > With all the exposure of computer collecting I guess this will shot the > price of vintage stuff on ebay up!!! (lol!) > > Well it's a canadian show and they did not come and see me...I think it's > even based in Montreal, but I am not sure. But then again my collection is > kinda small compared to this guy...but then again, I don't really collect > X86 and compatibles...unless they are something outta the ordinary.... > > I think it will be broadcast again this week, I will try to grab it...and > tape it...heck, maybe even try to transfer it to a file or something....I > think I have somekinda video grab card for a MAC called a Moonraker here > somewhere...but where? > > I can only imagine perhaps the weird and odd machines I might have been > offered for free with the exposure of going on TV...oh well...there is > always my "patato chip in the shape of animals" collection that might get me > on the tube...or my "survivor - in the space station" application...counting > on that too.... > > Life goes on up north...and it's finally hot and the pool is ready... > > Claude > Canuk Computer Collector > http://computer_collector.tripod.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: George Leo Rachor Jr. > To: > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 5:32 PM > Subject: Re: Interesting show on the Computer Garage > > > > His name is Jim Willing... > > > > Congrats Jim! Your famous again! > > > > George > > > > ========================================================= > > George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com > > Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com > > United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > > > > On Wed, 2 May 2001, Chris Halarewich wrote: > > > > > Hello all: > > > Last night, tuesday I was waching Undercurrants on CBC Newsworld > > > (canadian brodcasting company 24 hr news station ) When I saw a story > > > about the Compiter Garage in Beverton Oregon, USA very informative > > > segment kudos to the proprietor (can't remember name right now) > > > thanx > > > Chris > > > > > > -- > > > # Netscape POP3 State File > > > # This is a generated file! Do not edit. > > > > > > > > > > > -- Brian Roth - System Administrator www.webwirz.com - Old Computer Repository Preoccupation is my main occupation..... From broth at heathers.stdio.com Thu May 3 04:41:28 2001 From: broth at heathers.stdio.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:00 2005 Subject: "Adaptec" PDP8e on Ebay Message-ID: <01050305453005.00808@fatty> Its interesting to note that of the three PDP8e's that have sold on Ebay this past few months, the winning bids have dropped from close to $2000 to just under $900. Brian. -- Brian Roth - System Administrator www.webwirz.com - Old Computer Repository Preoccupation is my main occupation..... From foxvideo at wincom.net Thu May 3 05:50:29 2001 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:00 2005 Subject: Microsoft Knowledge Base Article - q276304 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010503064949.00a6bcb0@mail.wincom.net> This article pointer was forwarded to you from the Microsoft Online Support site. http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/q276/3/04.ASP Charlie Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor ON N8Y 3J8 foxvideo@wincom.net Check out: Camcorder Kindergarten at http://chasfoxvideo.com From halarewich at look.ca Thu May 3 06:21:45 2001 From: halarewich at look.ca (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:00 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage References: <001701c0d385$cbf954c0$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> <01050305374604.00808@fatty> Message-ID: <3AF13F49.F12D5AE9@look.ca> someone who is from Canada (as in crazy canuk late 70's sking team with steve podborski) chris Brian Roth wrote: > Claude, > > What is a Canuk? > > Brian. > > On Thu, 03 May 2001, you wrote: > > Oh well... > > > > With all the exposure of computer collecting I guess this will shot the > > price of vintage stuff on ebay up!!! (lol!) > > > > Well it's a canadian show and they did not come and see me...I think it's > > even based in Montreal, but I am not sure. But then again my collection is > > kinda small compared to this guy...but then again, I don't really collect > > X86 and compatibles...unless they are something outta the ordinary.... > > > > I think it will be broadcast again this week, I will try to grab it...and > > tape it...heck, maybe even try to transfer it to a file or something....I > > think I have somekinda video grab card for a MAC called a Moonraker here > > somewhere...but where? > > > > I can only imagine perhaps the weird and odd machines I might have been > > offered for free with the exposure of going on TV...oh well...there is > > always my "patato chip in the shape of animals" collection that might get me > > on the tube...or my "survivor - in the space station" application...counting > > on that too.... > > > > Life goes on up north...and it's finally hot and the pool is ready... > > > > Claude > > Canuk Computer Collector > > http://computer_collector.tripod.com > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: George Leo Rachor Jr. > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 5:32 PM > > Subject: Re: Interesting show on the Computer Garage > > > > > > > His name is Jim Willing... > > > > > > Congrats Jim! Your famous again! > > > > > > George > > > > > > ========================================================= > > > George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com > > > Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com > > > United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > > > > > > On Wed, 2 May 2001, Chris Halarewich wrote: > > > > > > > Hello all: > > > > Last night, tuesday I was waching Undercurrants on CBC Newsworld > > > > (canadian brodcasting company 24 hr news station ) When I saw a story > > > > about the Compiter Garage in Beverton Oregon, USA very informative > > > > segment kudos to the proprietor (can't remember name right now) > > > > thanx > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > -- > > > > # Netscape POP3 State File > > > > # This is a generated file! Do not edit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Brian Roth - System Administrator > www.webwirz.com - Old Computer Repository > > Preoccupation is my main occupation..... -- # Netscape POP3 State File # This is a generated file! Do not edit. From menadeau at mediaone.net Thu May 3 07:10:29 2001 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:00 2005 Subject: PMC MicroMate References: <008001c0d36a$669a8290$96769a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <001b01c0d3ca$0ee950c0$0c01a8c0@michaelnadeau> We had 3 PMC-80s at 80 Micro--got them in an ad trade. They worked fine for a few months, and then within a period of 2 weeks, they all literally went up in smoke. The floppy drives were cranky, too. I don't recall ever having any compatibility problems with them. An editor took one home, but could only use it after everyone else in his apartment complex went to bed. The RFI was so bad it ruined TV and radio reception in the building. PMC's suggestion for a fix: Wrap the computer in a chicken wire cage and then cover the cage with aluminum foil. I still have all the documentation for these machines. --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 ----- Original Message ----- From: "ajp166" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 8:43 PM Subject: Re: PMC MicroMate > From: Michael Nadeau > > > >PMC made a crappy TRS-80 Model I clone called, I think, the PMC-80, but > this > >is obviously a different machine. I'll see if I can come up with > anything on > >it. > > > Crappy TRS-80???? The only thing they didn't copy were the shortfalls > and bugs! > > I think the L-systems (aka Ldos people) did it better. > > Allison > > > From rhblake at bigfoot.com Thu May 3 07:53:09 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:00 2005 Subject: 1mb x 1 memory chips for printers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Does it happen to say what printers the boards are used in? I have a Pacific Data Products board from a Laserjet III that has 2 mb worth (16 chips) soldered on and two banks of 8 blank sockets to add another 2mb. The chips are marked HY51C4256S-C and are 20 pin DIP chips/sockets. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Mike Ford > Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 3:42 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: 1mb x 1 memory chips for printers > > > I have around 50 or so printer memory expansion boards, ALL unpopulated. I > guess they ship them blank, then the vendor installs the memory as units > sell, but I don't have any chips. Where is a good place to find memory > chips for printers ie 1 MB x 1 bit? (sockets are 18 pin I think, but it > doesn't go into anymore detail) Given the 16 to 24 devices per board I am > guessing I would buy maybe in lots of 100 or so. > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu May 3 08:40:19 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:00 2005 Subject: 1mb x 1 memory chips for printers References: Message-ID: <000e01c0d3d6$9872db20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well ... those chips are 256x4 devices. I have a Pacific Data Products board in one of my LJ-iii's but it uses 1Mx1's, which are 18-pin devices. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russ Blakeman" To: Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 6:53 AM Subject: RE: 1mb x 1 memory chips for printers > Does it happen to say what printers the boards are used in? I have a Pacific > Data Products board from a Laserjet III that has 2 mb worth (16 chips) > soldered on and two banks of 8 blank sockets to add another 2mb. The chips > are marked HY51C4256S-C and are 20 pin DIP chips/sockets. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Mike Ford > > Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 3:42 AM > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: 1mb x 1 memory chips for printers > > > > > > I have around 50 or so printer memory expansion boards, ALL unpopulated. I > > guess they ship them blank, then the vendor installs the memory as units > > sell, but I don't have any chips. Where is a good place to find memory > > chips for printers ie 1 MB x 1 bit? (sockets are 18 pin I think, but it > > doesn't go into anymore detail) Given the 16 to 24 devices per board I am > > guessing I would buy maybe in lots of 100 or so. > > > > > > From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Thu May 3 08:10:05 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:00 2005 Subject: Amiga items on eBay -- advertising auctions on classiccmp In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010503091005.00dbf99c@obregon.multi.net.co> At 08:22 AM 5/2/01 -0600, Robert Feldman wrote: >Flooding can be blocked if you take advantage of proxy bidding. Just decide >what your _maximum_ bid is, and enter that amount (near the end of the >auction, if you want, but not at the last second). Your actual bid will only >be the minimum increment above the next highest actual bid (and not >necessarily what you are willing to go up to). -snip- And at 07:51 AM 5/2/01 -0700, Marvin wrote: >The short answer is yes. The DNF (Discuss Newest Features) board has a >sniping contest at 22:22:22 PDT Ebay time and the highest I've seen is 39 >posts in that one second. And to say again, sniping only works against >bidders who either do not know or are not willing to bid what an item might >be worth. I think that "stategy" you are talking about is just ignorance of >the system. Sigh. You guys are taking the position of lots of economists when discussing real-world markets, saying that the theory supports the well-behavedness of the market and neglecting the fact that the assumptions that were necessary to prove the theory do not apply to the real problem. In the auction institution that eBay uses, which is technically a demand-side bidding, raise-only, interactive auction with sealed bid caps and fixed increments, for the clearing price to reflect the actual market price you need many assumptions, not the least important of which is something called "rational bidding behavior". That means that the buyers have done their homework, examined their costs and benefits and determined an optimal strategy (i.e., a "maximum price" in the case of single lot auctions as in most of eBay auctions) that they are willing to pay. However, it takes only _one_ irrational buyer to bias the clearing price by the minimum price increment, and it takes only _two_ irrational buyers to transform the auction into a game whose payoff (or rather, whose negative payoff) will be bounded only by how stupid the buyers are. Bidding contests are proof of irrational behavior in eBay and it happens all the time. There is a definite psychological component that fuels the escalation of the price: "I want to win even if it makes no sense financially". There is an inherent time dimension in the problem because when people lose the high bidder position they convince themselves to bid even more although they had decided on a max price earlier. Because of this time dimension, the longer the price stays high, the likelier it is to go up further. It is simple psychology, and undoubtedly irrational. But that's how it is, and there is nothing that you, as a buyer, can do to change the behavior of such bidders. However, you can mitigate to some extent the effect that such buyers have on the clearing price by bidding late in the auction, giving them less time to convince themselves to raise their bids. Thus sniping is born. Sniping is a sensible strategy in an eBay auction with irrational bidders. It has the effect of transforming the auction institution into something of a sealed bid auction, which can really mitigate the effects of irrational bidding. Furthermore, because irrational bidding tends to be specific to a particular auction (it doesn't necessarily carry over to set the price of subsequent auctions, because of the "bidder remorse" issue), repeated auctions will tend to stabilize closer to the fair market value. The fact that sniping is a standard mechanism used by lots of buyers on eBay just proves what everyone doing experimental economics has observed again and again: if there is one way to game the system, it will be found, and, once it is found, the strategy will spread and become commonplace. At our group, we have used experimental economics tools to analyze the behavior of open energy markets. We have tried almost every auction institution (first accepted offer, first rejected offer, discriminatory, Vickrey, variants of these, you name it). Even though the experiments are carefully setup to prove or disprove a given hypothesis, we are always amazed by the range of unexpected, highly creative behaviors that we had not thought of. If you care to read about our group's work, here's our web site http://www.pserc.wisc.edu/ and our web-based experimental economics market simulator http://www.pserc.cornell.edu/powerweb/ Carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From fruviad at coil.com Thu May 3 09:43:41 2001 From: fruviad at coil.com (Peter Kukla) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:00 2005 Subject: Back to booting that MicroVAX... In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010502201439.02683eb0@208.226.86.10> from "Chuck McManis" at May 02, 2001 08:17:13 PM Message-ID: <200105031443.KAA02745@bronze.coil.com> Well, since the concensus seems to be that I'll need to get a CD-drive for this thing, I guess I'll start looking. I did sign up for a DECUS membership a few days ago...never heard anything back from them, so I'll wait a few days and resubmit my signup if nothing materializes from them. Thanks... Peter Kukla Chuck McManis electronically enscribed: > > Since you have SCSI, your best bet is to get a CD-ROM drive and a copy of > VMS on CD-ROM. Then you can install VMS and any layered products for which > you have PAKs (when you join DECUS they will send you, on request, PAKs for > most layered products) > > I suggest if you have a local surplus electronics place or perhaps a PC > repair center that you scrounge around for a Toshiba SCSI CD-ROM drive. > They will often work in this application. > > --Chuck > > At 10:27 PM 5/2/01 -0400, you wrote: > >Hi all, > > > >Refresher for those who have forgotten: > > > >MicroVAX 3100/20e...I couldn't get it to boot, except into Standalone BACKUP > >mode. When the box boots, it reports that it's finding the tape drive, > >DKA300, and DKB200. > > > >I tried Eric's suggestion, but no luck. My guess is that I need to get > >the OS on TK50 tapes and find out whether the 2nd disk is even alive, but > >I have no idea where to get VMS on tape. I've been playing with intel > >hardware for years, but this is the first time I've ever experimented with > >VMS. > > > >Anyone have any suggestions as to where I could find tapes for this beast? > >I've been lurking for the past week or three, and obviously the folks on > >this list know a LOT more than I do about reviving ancient hardware! > > > >Thanks in advance... > > > > From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu May 3 10:01:45 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:00 2005 Subject: Amiga items on eBay -- advertising auctions on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20010503091005.00dbf99c@obregon.multi.net.co> from Carlos Murillo at "May 3, 1 09:10:05 am" Message-ID: <200105031501.IAA09570@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Sigh. You guys are taking the position of lots of economists when > discussing real-world markets, saying that the theory supports > the well-behavedness of the market and neglecting the fact > that the assumptions that were necessary to prove the theory > do not apply to the real problem. Cool analysis! I never thought of it that way before. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- A witty saying proves nothing. -- Voltaire --------------------------------- From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 3 10:13:23 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:00 2005 Subject: Amiga items on eBay -- advertising auctions on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20010503091005.00dbf99c@obregon.multi.net.co> References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010503100538.01ebd2a0@pc> At 09:10 AM 5/3/01 -0400, Carlos Murillo wrote: >Sigh. You guys are taking the position of lots of economists when >discussing real-world markets, saying that the theory supports >the well-behavedness of the market and neglecting the fact >that the assumptions that were necessary to prove the theory >do not apply to the real problem. As a seller, the irrational bidders are great when it comes to improving my return on investment. Blind stupidity exhibited by winners after the auction ends can be a real pain, or sometimes just laughable. To wit, near-winners, too: yesterday I got an e-mail from a guy who said he meant to bid more, so if the winner's money doesn't come through, he'd gladly pay me double the winning bid to get the item. Was he stupid, or expecting me to toss him the auction? In terms of invisible hands, I wish one would create a better auction site and then magically give it as many visitors as eBay. There's been a few minor changes to eBay in the past few years, but that's it. What, it couldn't be improved? The page layouts couldn't be more snappy-looking? Every new (for-pay) feeping creaturism they've added looks positively tacked-on. - John From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu May 3 10:27:40 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:00 2005 Subject: Back to booting that MicroVAX... In-Reply-To: <200105031443.KAA02745@bronze.coil.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010502201439.02683eb0@208.226.86.10> from "Chuck McManis" at May 02, 2001 08:17:13 PM Message-ID: >Well, since the concensus seems to be that I'll need to get a CD-drive for >this thing, I guess I'll start looking. Remember it needs to be one that supports 512-byte blocks, instead of the standard 2048-byte. If it's Sun-Bootable, it should work just fine. Since I suspect you've got a wacky SCSI connector on the back of that machine you'll probably want to pop the hood and plug the CD-ROM at least temporarily into the internal cable. >I did sign up for a DECUS membership a few days ago...never heard anything >back from them, so I'll wait a few days and resubmit my signup if nothing >materializes from them. I've heard people have been having trouble, it might actually take a phone call from what I've heard. BTW, my membership had expired over a year ago, and I was still using my ID to get hobbyist PAK's. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu May 3 10:33:38 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:00 2005 Subject: Back to booting that MicroVAX... In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010502225758.026a0580@208.226.86.10> References: <200105030503.f4353kF15960@narnia.int.dittman.net> <009e01c0d381$2bbf8eb0$96769a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: >One of the things I did was a full install of 7.2 plus UCX (TCP/IP) and >then used standalone backup to make an image copy of the system disk on to >a single TK70 tape. I didn't check to see how many blocks it used however. >This makes new installs really easy, boot STABACKIT from some media (in my >case an RZ24 that just has that on it) and then image the tape on to the >system drive. I've also got an RF30 with STABACKIT on it for DSSI only >systems like my 4000/200. I liked my trick, but it required a semi-alive HD with OpenVMS on it, and a working system with a CD-ROM. To get OpenVMS V7.2 on the MicroVAX III I've got with RA72's and RA73's I hooked a RD54 (running a fairly trashed 5.5-2 setup) up long enough that I was able to transfer a backup file of the V7.2 Hobbyist CD over to the system and restore it to one of the RA72's. I then booted that and installed the OS on the other RA72. I've suspected something simular can be done if you boot the target machine into a cluster as a diskless system, but I've never had the time to figure out what needs to be done. >I've got on my list the task of creating a VAX languages CD using the LD >driver. That comes later I think. > >--Chuck Were you the one looking for DIBOL? If you didn't see my note the other day it's on the Freeware V5.0 CD. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 3 10:42:51 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:00 2005 Subject: Microsoft Knowledge Base Article - q276304 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010503064949.00a6bcb0@mail.wincom.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 May 2001, Charles E. Fox wrote: > This article pointer was forwarded to you from the Microsoft Online Support > site. http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/q276/3/04.ASP Why? From celt at chisp.net Thu May 3 11:10:04 2001 From: celt at chisp.net (Michael Maginnis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:00 2005 Subject: Apple II IDE interface Message-ID: <3AF182DC.4040007@chisp.net> Found this on usenet. Someone has kludged up an IDE interface for the Apple II (!). Schematics and software for the interface can be found at: http://s.guillard.free.fr Apparently the thing costs about $5 in parts to put together. - Mike From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu May 3 11:27:49 2001 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:00 2005 Subject: RQDX3 under RT11 Message-ID: Paul, I too can confirm that it should work; the 11/23+ sitting next to me is running 5.2FB and it has an RQDX3. Will J _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From fruviad at coil.com Thu May 3 11:41:18 2001 From: fruviad at coil.com (Peter Kukla) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:00 2005 Subject: Back to booting that MicroVAX... In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at May 03, 2001 08:27:40 AM Message-ID: <200105031641.MAA10282@bronze.coil.com> The SCSI connector on the back tends to be flaky on the MicroVAX 3100s? Hmmm...that knowledge will save me a lot of frustration. Thanks... :-) Peter Zane H. Healy electronically enscribed: > > >Well, since the concensus seems to be that I'll need to get a CD-drive for > >this thing, I guess I'll start looking. > > Remember it needs to be one that supports 512-byte blocks, instead of the > standard 2048-byte. If it's Sun-Bootable, it should work just fine. Since > I suspect you've got a wacky SCSI connector on the back of that machine > you'll probably want to pop the hood and plug the CD-ROM at least > temporarily into the internal cable. > > >I did sign up for a DECUS membership a few days ago...never heard anything > >back from them, so I'll wait a few days and resubmit my signup if nothing > >materializes from them. > > I've heard people have been having trouble, it might actually take a phone > call from what I've heard. BTW, my membership had expired over a year ago, > and I was still using my ID to get hobbyist PAK's. > > Zane From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu May 3 11:14:23 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:00 2005 Subject: 1mb x 1 memory chips for printers In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010503022543.01df4070@mail.zipcon.net> References: Message-ID: About half look to be JetRam, and many of them are for HP, II, IIP, III etc., but also TI, Oki, etc. >are these HP compatible memory boards? if so you know which manufacturer? > >At 01:42 AM 5/3/01 -0700, you wrote: >>I have around 50 or so printer memory expansion boards, ALL unpopulated. I >>guess they ship them blank, then the vendor installs the memory as units >>sell, but I don't have any chips. Where is a good place to find memory >>chips for printers ie 1 MB x 1 bit? (sockets are 18 pin I think, but it >>doesn't go into anymore detail) Given the 16 to 24 devices per board I am >>guessing I would buy maybe in lots of 100 or so. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu May 3 11:24:02 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:00 2005 Subject: 1mb x 1 memory chips for printers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Does it happen to say what printers the boards are used in? I have a Pacific >Data Products board from a Laserjet III that has 2 mb worth (16 chips) >soldered on and two banks of 8 blank sockets to add another 2mb. The chips >are marked HY51C4256S-C and are 20 pin DIP chips/sockets. Only a handfull of them are in just static bags, and even those clearly have the models identified so far. Most of them are in the new retail package with a little booklet etc. That memory looks like 4 bit x 256k, which seems also common. When I found a board for my NEC Silentwriter 2 model 90, I started bidding in ernest, and stopped reading the other boxes. I really have no interest in the rest except to sell them, anybody wants a "ready to be filled expansion card" $5 and shipping, 3/$10, 10/$22, etc. From emu at ecubics.com Thu May 3 11:54:23 2001 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:00 2005 Subject: RQDX3 under RT11 References: Message-ID: <3AF18D3F.E5FBD310@ecubics.com> Will Jennings wrote: > > Paul, > I too can confirm that it should work; the 11/23+ sitting next to me is > running 5.2FB and it has an RQDX3. Since when do you have any running pdp11 systems ? ;-) cheers From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Thu May 3 11:56:38 2001 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:00 2005 Subject: Amiga items on eBay -- advertising auctions on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20010503091005.00dbf99c@obregon.multi.net.co>; from cmurillo@emtelsa.multi.net.co on Thu, May 03, 2001 at 09:10:05AM -0400 References: <3.0.2.32.20010503091005.00dbf99c@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <20010503125638.C7692@alcor.concordia.ca> On Thu, May 03, 2001 at 09:10:05AM -0400, Carlos Murillo (cmurillo@emtelsa.multi.net.co) wrote: > At 08:22 AM 5/2/01 -0600, Robert Feldman wrote: > >Flooding can be blocked if you take advantage of proxy bidding. Just decide > >what your _maximum_ bid is, and enter that amount (near the end of the > >auction, if you want, but not at the last second). Your actual bid will only > >be the minimum increment above the next highest actual bid (and not > >necessarily what you are willing to go up to). > -snip- > > And at 07:51 AM 5/2/01 -0700, Marvin wrote: > >The short answer is yes. The DNF (Discuss Newest Features) board has a > >sniping contest at 22:22:22 PDT Ebay time and the highest I've seen is 39 > >posts in that one second. And to say again, sniping only works against > >bidders who either do not know or are not willing to bid what an item might > >be worth. I think that "stategy" you are talking about is just ignorance of > >the system. > > Sigh. You guys are taking the position of lots of economists when > discussing real-world markets, saying that the theory supports > the well-behavedness of the market and neglecting the fact > that the assumptions that were necessary to prove the theory > do not apply to the real problem. Nothing you've quoted suggests that they're taking that position. They *do* suggest that bidding your maximum bid at the outset and letting it sit there will let you win the auction if no-one is willing to bid more than that. That's an awfully big "if", though -- and in Robert's example, I don't see where bidding late helps; it'll have an effect on what the sniper pays, but not on what you pay. (Actually, if you bid your maximum early, you can punish the sniper. I think.) No-one's saying that eBay clears; they're just saying that there are strategies that, if you know your maximum bid, will get you the item if your maximum bid is the highest. > Thus sniping is born. Sniping is a sensible strategy in an eBay > auction with irrational bidders. Well, sniping is rational if the disutility from having to snipe is small enough to not offset the savings. If the disutility of having to snipe is high enough, bidding your maximum at the outset is rational. Most popular accounts I've seen omit the disutility of having to snipe. (Of course, if the disutility of having to calculate your maximum... well, you know.) I'm inclined to say -- but certainly haven't worked it out -- that bidding below your maximum mid-auction is the only dominated pure strategy, and that it's strongly dominated. I certainly won't claim that eBay is efficient, though. -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu May 3 12:19:54 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:00 2005 Subject: Apple II IDE interface In-Reply-To: <3AF182DC.4040007@chisp.net> Message-ID: You can buy an IDE drive & controller that will drop right into a slot on the Apple ][. I don't recall who makes them right now, but they use laptop IDE drives and they're bolted right on to the end of the card. Pretty cheap too. You can order them with ProDOS or an OS for the ][gs pre-loaded. g. On Thu, 3 May 2001, Michael Maginnis wrote: > Found this on usenet. Someone has kludged up an IDE interface for the > Apple II (!). Schematics and software for the interface can be found at: > > http://s.guillard.free.fr > > Apparently the thing costs about $5 in parts to put together. > > - Mike > > From dittman at dittman.net Thu May 3 12:17:59 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:00 2005 Subject: Back to booting that MicroVAX... In-Reply-To: <200105031641.MAA10282@bronze.coil.com> from "Peter Kukla" at May 03, 2001 12:41:18 PM Message-ID: <200105031717.f43HHxb18412@narnia.int.dittman.net> > The SCSI connector on the back tends to be flaky on the MicroVAX 3100s? > Hmmm...that knowledge will save me a lot of frustration. Thanks... :-) No, the SCSI connector is just a strange DEC-only format. It looks like a 68-pin SCSI connector, but it's not. You'll need the special SCSI cable to use external devices. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From celt at chisp.net Thu May 3 12:40:17 2001 From: celt at chisp.net (Michael Maginnis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:00 2005 Subject: Apple II IDE interface References: Message-ID: <3AF19801.1080106@chisp.net> I posted this mostly for the hardware nuts and soldering-iron jockeys. Besides, I doubt the pre-built ones sell for $5. - Mike Gene Buckle wrote: > You can buy an IDE drive & controller that will drop right into a slot on > the Apple ][. I don't recall who makes them right now, but they use > laptop IDE drives and they're bolted right on to the end of the > card. Pretty cheap too. You can order them with ProDOS or an OS for the > ][gs pre-loaded. > > g. > > > On Thu, 3 May 2001, Michael Maginnis wrote: > > >>Found this on usenet. Someone has kludged up an IDE interface for the >>Apple II (!). Schematics and software for the interface can be found at: >> >>http://s.guillard.free.fr >> >>Apparently the thing costs about $5 in parts to put together. >> >>- Mike >> >> >> > From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu May 3 12:42:06 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:00 2005 Subject: Back to booting that MicroVAX... In-Reply-To: <200105031641.MAA10282@bronze.coil.com> References: from "Zane H. Healy" at May 03, 2001 08:27:40 AM Message-ID: >The SCSI connector on the back tends to be flaky on the MicroVAX 3100s? >Hmmm...that knowledge will save me a lot of frustration. Thanks... :-) No, not flaky, I'm just wondering if the model you have has a non-standard one. I've never had any problem with my Non-Standard one, but then I've got the cable. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From tarsi at binhost.com Thu May 3 12:59:09 2001 From: tarsi at binhost.com (Tarsi) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:00 2005 Subject: Apple II IDE interface In-Reply-To: References: <3AF182DC.4040007@chisp.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010503125810.05184da0@pop3.binhost.com> Well, yes, and all good on that. :) But kudos to Stephane for figuring this out. This is the kind of down-and-dirty playing that I love with this hobby! Tarsi 210 At 10:19 AM 5/3/2001 -0700, you wrote: >You can buy an IDE drive & controller that will drop right into a slot on >the Apple ][. I don't recall who makes them right now, but they use >laptop IDE drives and they're bolted right on to the end of the >card. Pretty cheap too. You can order them with ProDOS or an OS for the >][gs pre-loaded. From mtapley at swri.edu Thu May 3 12:59:29 2001 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:00 2005 Subject: HD for NeXT recommendations? In-Reply-To: <200105030318.WAA07784@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: All, Having some problems with my beloved NeXT. I'm *hoping*, perhaps unreasonably, that they are related to the internal hard drive. I want to try replacing it with a different one. Here's what I'm looking for: Very Reliable Low Power consumption/heat dissipation 3.5 inch 50-pin SCSI 550 Meg < capacity < 2 Gig Inexpensive Recommendations? Both drive model, and where to get one? I have an RZ26 which would probably be perfect, but I hate to use up a DEC drive in a non-DEC machine, having heard of the trouble folks have had trying to go the other way. (Still awaiting CD and User ID number from Mentec and Encompass, respectively.) Other (possibly pertient) info: Machine is a 68040 cube, non-turbo. Its drive bays are big enough to accomodate 5.25 inch drives, but the lower bay contains an optical and the upper bay contains a floppy *and* the internal hard drive. There is an external case with a pair more hard drives and some pretty questionable cabling, but the fault has appeared with that whole setup disconnected (though not lately). Internal hard drive (and floppy) are cantilevered between a pair of plastic plates that are screwed to the inside of the drive bay. The cantilever is formed by a set of mounting screws that go from the plastic to the drive screw holes via plastic stand-offs. I'd say it's pretty likely the drive is electrically isolated from the chassis except for the power plug ground. I'd say it's extremely likely the drive is thermally isolated from the chassis, so it's entirely air-cooled. The fan is circulating air in the volume where the drive is hanging. Fault appears during heavy disk activity only. Can happen as a consequnce of find / -name .nfs .... for example, which appears in the daily cron job (sigh). Can also happen when find / -name .nfs is entered from a terminal session. Things like cd / du can produce "segmentation fault" errors as well. /private/adm/messages log file shows unsettling things like: May 3 10:16:05 mtapley2 mach: unexpected kernel page fault failure May 3 10:16:05 mtapley2 mach: trap: type 0x410 fcode 5 rw 1 faultaddr 0xb570101a May 3 10:16:05 mtapley2 mach: trap: pc 0x4001ada sp 0x3fffb0c sr 0x2000 May 3 10:16:05 mtapley2 mach: trap: cpu 0 th 0x101b2030 proc 0x101b1af0 pid 210 pcb 0x101b2230 May 3 10:16:05 mtapley2 mach: traceback: fp 0x111d5fb0 May 3 10:16:05 mtapley2 mach: called from pc 0x040f15c6 fp 0x00000000 4-args 00000001 b570101a 00000000 00000000 May 3 10:16:05 mtapley2 mach: last fp 0x0 May 3 10:16:05 mtapley2 mach: panic: (Cpu 0) MMU invalid descriptor during table walk (Is this consistent with a soft hard-drive failure, or am I barking up the wrong tree entirely?) Sometimes during attempts to reboot after fault, monitor shows file systems clean but then I later get a panic - requiring fsck for the next reboot. Fsck often has to be run repeatedly. (Fsck represents fairly heavy disk activity. Sigh.) Fault has not appeared within 30 minutes or so of powering the machine down and leaving it to cool for 10 minutes or so, so may be at least partially due to thermal problems. Advice or recommendations for things to try are welcome. Thanks in advance for any form of help. - Mark From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu May 3 13:22:19 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:00 2005 Subject: Microsoft Knowledge Base Article - q276304 In-Reply-To: from Fred Cisin at "May 3, 1 08:42:51 am" Message-ID: <200105031822.LAA11420@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > This article pointer was forwarded to you from the Microsoft Online Support > > site. http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/q276/3/04.ASP > > Why? Dunno, but I laughed my butt off. I wonder if the text of War and Peace would be an acceptable password? -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- This message will self-destruct in five seconds. Good luck, Jim. -- M:I ---- From donm at cts.com Thu May 3 13:22:13 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:00 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage In-Reply-To: <01050305374604.00808@fatty> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 May 2001, Brian Roth wrote: > Claude, > > What is a Canuk? > > Brian. It is to Canada as Aussie is to Australia or Yank is to the USA. - don > > On Thu, 03 May 2001, you wrote: > > Oh well... > > > > With all the exposure of computer collecting I guess this will shot the > > price of vintage stuff on ebay up!!! (lol!) > > > > Well it's a canadian show and they did not come and see me...I think it's > > even based in Montreal, but I am not sure. But then again my collection is > > kinda small compared to this guy...but then again, I don't really collect > > X86 and compatibles...unless they are something outta the ordinary.... > > > > I think it will be broadcast again this week, I will try to grab it...and > > tape it...heck, maybe even try to transfer it to a file or something....I > > think I have somekinda video grab card for a MAC called a Moonraker here > > somewhere...but where? > > > > I can only imagine perhaps the weird and odd machines I might have been > > offered for free with the exposure of going on TV...oh well...there is > > always my "patato chip in the shape of animals" collection that might get me > > on the tube...or my "survivor - in the space station" application...counting > > on that too.... > > > > Life goes on up north...and it's finally hot and the pool is ready... > > > > Claude > > Canuk Computer Collector > > http://computer_collector.tripod.com > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: George Leo Rachor Jr. > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 5:32 PM > > Subject: Re: Interesting show on the Computer Garage > > > > > > > His name is Jim Willing... > > > > > > Congrats Jim! Your famous again! > > > > > > George > > > > > > ========================================================= > > > George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com > > > Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com > > > United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > > > > > > On Wed, 2 May 2001, Chris Halarewich wrote: > > > > > > > Hello all: > > > > Last night, tuesday I was waching Undercurrants on CBC Newsworld > > > > (canadian brodcasting company 24 hr news station ) When I saw a story > > > > about the Compiter Garage in Beverton Oregon, USA very informative > > > > segment kudos to the proprietor (can't remember name right now) > > > > thanx > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > -- > > > > # Netscape POP3 State File > > > > # This is a generated file! Do not edit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Brian Roth - System Administrator > www.webwirz.com - Old Computer Repository > > Preoccupation is my main occupation..... > From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu May 3 13:36:32 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:00 2005 Subject: Apple II IDE interface In-Reply-To: <3AF19801.1080106@chisp.net> Message-ID: > I posted this mostly for the hardware nuts and soldering-iron jockeys. > Besides, I doubt the pre-built ones sell for $5. > Hehehe. Nope. I think I paid $75 for the one I got for the ][gs I used to have. g. From red at bears.org Thu May 3 13:52:05 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:00 2005 Subject: HD for NeXT recommendations? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 May 2001, Mark Tapley wrote: > try replacing it with a different one. Here's what I'm looking for: > > Very Reliable > Low Power consumption/heat dissipation > 3.5 inch > 50-pin SCSI > 550 Meg < capacity < 2 Gig > Inexpensive This can only describe the Seagate ST51080N. 1 GB Medalist SL. I have one in my NeXTstation, and a few others in other machines. I'll think about the rest of your message shortly. ok r. From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu May 3 14:02:37 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:00 2005 Subject: HD for NeXT recommendations? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <01May3.153101edt.119049@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Mark, I've had good luck with Seagate SCSI drives in my NeXT systems. I believe that the original 406MB drive provided by NeXT was a Seagate as well. My NeXTstation Color currently has a 1gig Seagate installed though I'm not at home currently to be able to look up the model. Jeff On Thursday, May 3, 2001, at 01:59 PM, Mark Tapley wrote: > All, > Having some problems with my beloved NeXT. I'm *hoping*, perhaps > unreasonably, that they are related to the internal hard drive. I want > to > try replacing it with a different one. Here's what I'm looking for: > > Very Reliable > Low Power consumption/heat dissipation > 3.5 inch > 50-pin SCSI > 550 Meg < capacity < 2 Gig > Inexpensive From fruviad at coil.com Thu May 3 14:42:34 2001 From: fruviad at coil.com (Peter Kukla) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:00 2005 Subject: Back to booting that MicroVAX... In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at May 03, 2001 08:27:40 AM Message-ID: <200105031942.PAA21734@bronze.coil.com> I called them to find out the status of the membership. The woman who answered the phone said they were doing something with their database, and that it would be a few weeks before it was processed. Just an FYI for anyone else out there who was thinking of signing up... Peter Zane H. Healy electronically enscribed: > >I did sign up for a DECUS membership a few days ago...never heard anything > >back from them, so I'll wait a few days and resubmit my signup if nothing > >materializes from them. > > I've heard people have been having trouble, it might actually take a phone > call from what I've heard. BTW, my membership had expired over a year ago, > and I was still using my ID to get hobbyist PAK's. > From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu May 3 15:31:47 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:00 2005 Subject: HD for NeXT recommendations? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >This can only describe the Seagate ST51080N. 1 GB Medalist SL. I have one >in my NeXTstation, and a few others in other machines. I used to have a ST51080N in my NeXTstation but removed it when it refused to boot unless there was an external drive attached to the system. I may have had it jumpered wrong though. It's a nice drive, very slim. I was wrong about what I currently have in it...I just powered it up and it has an IBM DPES-31080 1gig installed. Also a nice drive, though it's a bit taller but still fits. It also seems fairly common in some of the PowerMac's such as the 8500. There weren't any problems installing the IBM drive in the NeXT and installing NS 3.3 and it boots right up. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu May 3 15:36:11 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:00 2005 Subject: Back to booting that MicroVAX... In-Reply-To: <200105031942.PAA21734@bronze.coil.com> References: <200105031942.PAA21734@bronze.coil.com> Message-ID: Makes me wonder if my membership is still active or not. I never did much with it after being unable to get the TK50 on my MVII to recognize anything. Jeff >I called them to find out the status of the membership. The woman >who answered the phone said they were doing something with their >database, and that it would be a few weeks before it was processed. > >Just an FYI for anyone else out there who was thinking of signing >up... > > >Peter > > >Zane H. Healy electronically enscribed: >> >I did sign up for a DECUS membership a few days ago...never heard anything >> >back from them, so I'll wait a few days and resubmit my signup if nothing >> >materializes from them. >> >> I've heard people have been having trouble, it might actually take a phone >> call from what I've heard. BTW, my membership had expired over a year ago, >> and I was still using my ID to get hobbyist PAK's. >> > > > -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From rhblake at bigfoot.com Thu May 3 16:30:58 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:00 2005 Subject: Apple II IDE interface In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Anyone know of one that works on the NuBus models, particularly the Quadra 650? I love the SCSI drives but would love to adapt a cheap large size IDE into it for (essentially) play/learning. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Gene Buckle > Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 12:20 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Apple II IDE interface > > > You can buy an IDE drive & controller that will drop right into a slot on > the Apple ][. I don't recall who makes them right now, but they use > laptop IDE drives and they're bolted right on to the end of the > card. Pretty cheap too. You can order them with ProDOS or an OS for the > ][gs pre-loaded. > > g. > > > On Thu, 3 May 2001, Michael Maginnis wrote: > > > Found this on usenet. Someone has kludged up an IDE interface for the > > Apple II (!). Schematics and software for the interface can be > found at: > > > > http://s.guillard.free.fr > > > > Apparently the thing costs about $5 in parts to put together. > > > > - Mike > > > > > From tim.mann at compaq.com Thu May 3 16:37:59 2001 From: tim.mann at compaq.com (tim.mann@compaq.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:00 2005 Subject: xtrs 4.5, a TRS-80 emulator for Unix and X Message-ID: <200105032137.f43Lbx022654@pachyderm.pa.dec.com> You can now get xtrs version 4.5, a Radio Shack TRS-80 Model I/III/4/4P emulator for Unix and the X Window System, from my TRS-80 Web pages: http://www.tim-mann.org/xtrs.html Version 4.5 adds emulation of the remaining undocumented Z-80 instructions, along with several other small improvements. See the included ChangeLog for details. This may be the final version, since I'm running out of ideas (and documentation) for TRS-80 peripherals to emulate. General xtrs blurb: xtrs is a Radio Shack TRS-80 Model I/III/4/4P emulator for Unix and the X Window System. It includes lower case, the real time clock, hi-res graphics, serial port, parallel printer, mouse, cassette, sound and music output (requires OSS), 5" and 8" floppy disk drives in single and double density, and even hard disk drives. The emulated floppy and hard disk file formats are compatible with the popular MSDOS-based emulators by Jeff Vavasour, Matthew Reed, and David Keil, and (if you choose a capable enough file format), all features of the original TRS-80 floppy disk controller are emulated. Under Linux, physical floppy disk drives are also supported. Physical cassettes can be read and written too. The user interface is a bit spartan, but it gets the job done. Tim Mann tim.mann@compaq.com http://www.tim-mann.org Compaq Computer Corporation, Systems Research Center, Palo Alto, CA From optimus at canit.se Thu May 3 17:19:00 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:00 2005 Subject: Back to booting that MicroVAX... In-Reply-To: <200105031717.f43HHxb18412@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <764.523T0T13994137optimus@canit.se> Eric Dittman skrev: >> The SCSI connector on the back tends to be flaky on the MicroVAX 3100s? >> Hmmm...that knowledge will save me a lot of frustration. Thanks... :-) >No, the SCSI connector is just a strange DEC-only format. It >looks like a 68-pin SCSI connector, but it's not. You'll need >the special SCSI cable to use external devices. Is that so? I must have been bloody lucky then in picking the right cable. Saved me a lot of frustration. =) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. S? ja. Forts?tt bara som du g?r s? kommer du i s?kerhet, och raka dig n?r du kommer hem s? ser du kanske inte ut som en apa. Du kan ju leva ett ombonat liv, t?lja tr?gubbar eller n?t s?nt. Lupin III till Jigen, Lupin den otrolige (Lupin III vs. fukusei ningen), TMS 1978 From rhblake at bigfoot.com Thu May 3 16:47:05 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:00 2005 Subject: Amiga items on eBay -- advertising auctions on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010503100538.01ebd2a0@pc> Message-ID: I fell for that once as a newbie seller. Come to find out that the high bid was another of his usernames that was obviously expendable and he jacked it up high on that username to keep anyone else from bidding more. Then when I couldn't reach the high bidder and got the email I almost went for it but remembered that ebay allowed you to get telephone and address info on bidders - I had the email from the lower bidder that made the offer and when I got the info on the welcher I found that it was the SAME person. Imagine that, one was listed as the full name, another as the first initial with the full last name. Guess who got to email customer support at ebay...they let me relist for free and it sold in between the fake bid and the one he wanted me to bite on, with a real bidder as both the other bidder's accounts were closed permanently. Seems he'd been doing this a lot when they went back and contacted previous sellers. The thing I love that they've done is to allow up to 1000 usernames to be barred from your auctions. Had a ditz in Illinois (not that people from Il are ditzes, I'm a Chicago native) that bid on a 55SX PS/2 that I had on auction and I was in a "move it out" mood that day and closed the auction early to get the thing rolling (before buy-it-now was available). He got a fully tested and nice machine with one little mar on the finish and a small amount of dust inside (after all they are "used"). He (or she - was a unisex name, Chris) writes me to say that I sent a junk unit that was all banged up and dirty. I think the buyer had a junker that they wanted to replace in the collection and keep the good one while getting me to refund them for the junker. I don't refund squat. It goes out good (or in the listed condition if not good) and it's final. If it gets damaged in shipment it has insurance. This ditz posts negative feedback on me. No problem - that username is on my "no can bid" list now and apparently it irks this person too as before I posted the username on the barred list I had to cancel another of the bids for that name. Problem solved, no more "polbit". > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of John Foust > Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 10:13 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Amiga items on eBay -- advertising auctions on classiccmp > > To wit, near-winners, too: yesterday I got an e-mail from a guy > who said he meant to bid more, so if the winner's money doesn't > come through, he'd gladly pay me double the winning bid to get the item. > Was he stupid, or expecting me to toss him the auction? From rhblake at bigfoot.com Thu May 3 16:50:41 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: 1mb x 1 memory chips for printers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: So am I to assume (since I haven't dealt with loose DRAM in years) that the HY51C4256S-C printed on the 20 pin DIP chips are 4x256, and if so anyone have a source? I need at least 16 to pop this Laserjet III up to the full 4 mb. I don't imagine they are the same as the old 256k DRAMs in the older PC,XT and some AT class machines... > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Mike Ford > Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 11:24 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: 1mb x 1 memory chips for printers > > > >Does it happen to say what printers the boards are used in? I > have a Pacific > >Data Products board from a Laserjet III that has 2 mb worth (16 chips) > >soldered on and two banks of 8 blank sockets to add another 2mb. > The chips > >are marked HY51C4256S-C and are 20 pin DIP chips/sockets. > > Only a handfull of them are in just static bags, and even those clearly > have the models identified so far. Most of them are in the new retail > package with a little booklet etc. > > That memory looks like 4 bit x 256k, which seems also common. When I found > a board for my NEC Silentwriter 2 model 90, I started bidding in ernest, > and stopped reading the other boxes. I really have no interest in the rest > except to sell them, anybody wants a "ready to be filled > expansion card" $5 > and shipping, 3/$10, 10/$22, etc. > > From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu May 3 17:02:10 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: Apple II IDE interface In-Reply-To: from Russ Blakeman at "May 3, 1 04:30:58 pm" Message-ID: <200105032202.PAA09684@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Anyone know of one that works on the NuBus models, particularly the Quadra > 650? I love the SCSI drives but would love to adapt a cheap large size IDE > into it for (essentially) play/learning. www.acard.com sells an IDE-to-SCSI bridge. Still, for low capacities, buying a direct SCSI drive is still more economical. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Wouldn't your life be simpler if you were reading this on a Commodore 64? -- From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu May 3 17:09:01 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: Apple II IDE interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Russ, Check out this URL: http://sldghamr.faithweb.com/ARS2000FW.html When I still was running a PowerCurve I looked into getting one of the Acard boards to put a 20gig drive in it. There's also someone that has used one of their cards in a PM6100 to use an IDE drive vice SCSI. It's a small circuit card that connects to the rear of the IDE drive and you plug the SCSI cable from the controller into it. Jeff >Anyone know of one that works on the NuBus models, particularly the Quadra >650? I love the SCSI drives but would love to adapt a cheap large size IDE >into it for (essentially) play/learning. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Gene Buckle >> Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 12:20 PM >> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: Apple II IDE interface >> >> >> You can buy an IDE drive & controller that will drop right into a slot on >> the Apple ][. I don't recall who makes them right now, but they use >> laptop IDE drives and they're bolted right on to the end of the >> card. Pretty cheap too. You can order them with ProDOS or an OS for the > > ][gs pre-loaded. -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From sipke at wxs.nl Thu May 3 17:12:28 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: DEC 325SL Adapter Info Needed Message-ID: <004301c0d41e$24cb8940$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Hi, Although not yet 10y old ......... And no big Iron ....... I Got a DEC 325SL Laptop (386SL 4MB Mono-LCD) from a friend to fix but .... the poweradapter got lost. I dunno if the batteries are still alive but I want to give it a try. Does any body know: 1 The adapter output voltage? 2 The max. current the adapter must supply? 3 The polarity of the output ? (It's got a female powerjack connection "(o)"style) If I can get it working, I might try to install Linux ;=) Anybody got any hints on this? Regards Sipke de Wal --------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx --------------------------------------------------- From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu May 3 18:10:27 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: Geek Radio Networks (was: Re: Finds... (mainly Heathkit 3400)) Message-ID: <008001c0d428$19684ca0$5b779a8d@ajp166> From: Megan > >>Have you seen http://www.irlp.net/? They are linking local amature radio >>networks together using the internet as a backbone. Not 20 or 40 meter, >>but interesting non-the-less. > >Heard about it for the first time today, talking with drive-time >friends on the local 2m repeater. One person was quite enthused, >but others were somewhat hesitant -- "It's not real ham radio, since >you use the internet for the real hop" and "Why not just use your >cell phone, it's no different." That and Amateur radio still has rules regarding commercial and third party traffic. Reminds me of the linkages I did 30 years ago with copper lines (phone). same old thing. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu May 3 18:15:31 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: RQDX3 under RT11 Message-ID: <008201c0d428$1a5089c0$5b779a8d@ajp166> From: emanuel stiebler >Will Jennings wrote: >> >> Paul, >> I too can confirm that it should work; the 11/23+ sitting next to me is >> running 5.2FB and it has an RQDX3. > >Since when do you have any running pdp11 systems ? >;-) >cheers Well I do have a running PDP-11 (various) and at least two have RQDX3s. If a RQDX2 works the 3 will too. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu May 3 18:14:16 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: Back to booting that MicroVAX... Message-ID: <008101c0d428$19e0ff10$5b779a8d@ajp166> From: Peter Kukla >The SCSI connector on the back tends to be flaky on the MicroVAX 3100s? >Hmmm...that knowledge will save me a lot of frustration. Thanks... :-) > >Peter Not really. Older 3100s used the 50pin cannon connector which is standard for SCSI-I and SCSI-II. The later 3100s like the M76 used the oddball 68pin HDB, and I'd add long before PCs did! I know this as I have a bunch of 3100s and. Allison > > >Zane H. Healy electronically enscribed: >> >> >Well, since the concensus seems to be that I'll need to get a CD-drive for >> >this thing, I guess I'll start looking. >> >> Remember it needs to be one that supports 512-byte blocks, instead of the >> standard 2048-byte. If it's Sun-Bootable, it should work just fine. Since >> I suspect you've got a wacky SCSI connector on the back of that machine >> you'll probably want to pop the hood and plug the CD-ROM at least >> temporarily into the internal cable. >> >> >I did sign up for a DECUS membership a few days ago...never heard anything >> >back from them, so I'll wait a few days and resubmit my signup if nothing >> >materializes from them. >> >> I've heard people have been having trouble, it might actually take a phone >> call from what I've heard. BTW, my membership had expired over a year ago, >> and I was still using my ID to get hobbyist PAK's. >> >> Zane From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu May 3 18:16:10 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: Back to booting that MicroVAX... Message-ID: <008301c0d428$1ac7b590$5b779a8d@ajp166> From: Eric Dittman >> The SCSI connector on the back tends to be flaky on the MicroVAX 3100s? >> Hmmm...that knowledge will save me a lot of frustration. Thanks... :-) > >No, the SCSI connector is just a strange DEC-only format. It >looks like a 68-pin SCSI connector, but it's not. You'll need >the special SCSI cable to use external devices. Only on the M76 and later machines. Allison From fernande at internet1.net Thu May 3 18:34:02 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: DEC finds and wants References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010502182005.022a8920@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <3AF1EAEA.82844E78@internet1.net> OH, I can tell you plenty about Chuck! He is the most difficult person to deal with!! Imagine someone freely distributing DEC parts! He actually packed a box with styrofoam peanuts, with some DEC parts in it, and sent it to ME! In my haste I got peanuts on my carpet!! I hadn't even sent him any MONEY!! I bet he even arranged for the mailman to ring the door buzzer while I was in the shower! ....and if it doesn't come though clearly enough, in the written word, of course I am kidding :-) Chuck sent me a few items for my BA23 case, that arrived quickly. Although, I did get a few peanuts on my floor, and the mailman did ring the buzzer twice while I was in the shower :-) BTW, I have an M3104. It's supposed to be an 8-line Asynchronous Multiplexor, with DMA. What does that mean/Do/etc? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Chuck McManis wrote: > Chad can vouch that I'm good for it :-) From rhblake at bigfoot.com Thu May 3 18:39:31 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: Apple II IDE interface In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Very much appreciated. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jeff Hellige > Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 5:09 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Apple II IDE interface > > > Russ, > > Check out this URL: > > http://sldghamr.faithweb.com/ARS2000FW.html > > When I still was running a PowerCurve I looked into getting > one of the Acard boards to put a 20gig drive in it. There's also > someone that has used one of their cards in a PM6100 to use an IDE > drive vice SCSI. It's a small circuit card that connects to the rear > of the IDE drive and you plug the SCSI cable from the controller into > it. > > Jeff > > >Anyone know of one that works on the NuBus models, particularly > the Quadra > >650? I love the SCSI drives but would love to adapt a cheap > large size IDE > >into it for (essentially) play/learning. > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > >> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Gene Buckle > >> Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 12:20 PM > >> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > >> Subject: Re: Apple II IDE interface > >> > >> > >> You can buy an IDE drive & controller that will drop right > into a slot on > >> the Apple ][. I don't recall who makes them right now, but they use > >> laptop IDE drives and they're bolted right on to the end of the > >> card. Pretty cheap too. You can order them with ProDOS or > an OS for the > > > ][gs pre-loaded. > -- > Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > From lgwalker at look.ca Thu May 3 18:55:01 2001 From: lgwalker at look.ca (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage In-Reply-To: <001701c0d385$cbf954c0$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> Message-ID: <3AF1B795.21845.3C45B9DF@localhost> Typical lazy surface journalism. She (Catherine Legge) contacted me having gotten my e-mail address from the now defunct Toronto Classic Computer Collectors web-page or an article written about us in a local computer paper. I imagine others there were also contacted but given what she finally produced, who knows. Pretty easy research. I responded encouragingly but never heard from her again. I guess it was easier to pull stuff off Jim's site than to do a real story about Canadian collectors. Another Puffball posing as a journalist. Larry > Oh well... > > With all the exposure of computer collecting I guess this will shot the > price of vintage stuff on ebay up!!! (lol!) > > Well it's a canadian show and they did not come and see me...I think it's > even based in Montreal, but I am not sure. But then again my collection is > kinda small compared to this guy...but then again, I don't really collect > X86 and compatibles...unless they are something outta the ordinary.... > > I think it will be broadcast again this week, I will try to grab it...and > tape it...heck, maybe even try to transfer it to a file or something....I > think I have somekinda video grab card for a MAC called a Moonraker here > somewhere...but where? > > I can only imagine perhaps the weird and odd machines I might have been > offered for free with the exposure of going on TV...oh well...there is > always my "patato chip in the shape of animals" collection that might get me on > the tube...or my "survivor - in the space station" application...counting on > that too.... > > Life goes on up north...and it's finally hot and the pool is ready... > > Claude > Canuk Computer Collector > http://computer_collector.tripod.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: George Leo Rachor Jr. > To: > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 5:32 PM > Subject: Re: Interesting show on the Computer Garage > > > > His name is Jim Willing... > > > > Congrats Jim! Your famous again! > > > > George > > > > ========================================================= > > George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com > > Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com > > United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > > > > On Wed, 2 May 2001, Chris Halarewich wrote: > > > > > Hello all: > > > Last night, tuesday I was waching Undercurrants on CBC Newsworld > > > (canadian brodcasting company 24 hr news station ) When I saw a story > > > about the Compiter Garage in Beverton Oregon, USA very informative > > > segment kudos to the proprietor (can't remember name right now) > > > thanx > > > Chris > > > > > > -- > > > # Netscape POP3 State File > > > # This is a generated file! Do not edit. Reply to: lgwalker@look.ca From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu May 3 19:13:49 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: Back to booting that MicroVAX... In-Reply-To: <008301c0d428$1ac7b590$5b779a8d@ajp166> from "ajp166" at May 03, 2001 07:16:10 PM Message-ID: <200105040013.RAA21494@shell1.aracnet.com> > >No, the SCSI connector is just a strange DEC-only format. It > >looks like a 68-pin SCSI connector, but it's not. You'll need > >the special SCSI cable to use external devices. > > > Only on the M76 and later machines. > > Allison I don't think the VAXstation 3100/10 is later than a M76, and it's got that oddball connector. I thought it was the other way around. Also either the DECstation 2100's and/or 3100's used the same cable. Zane From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu May 3 19:15:05 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: Flaky SCSI etc. ( was Re: Back to booting that MicroVAX... In-Reply-To: <008301c0d428$1ac7b590$5b779a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010503171217.02621f50@208.226.86.10> At 07:16 PM 5/3/2001 -0400, you wrote: >Only on the M76 and later machines. Tell that to the VS3100/M30 :-) I'm guessing its all VAXStation machines but its hard to be sure. On an unrelated but still VAXish note. The BA123 chassis. Normally when you open theses things on the right side (looking at it from the front) there is a brass door that covers the card cage. Now I'm looking at one that has a brass plate that covers both the card cage and much of the drive area. When was this introduced? --Chuck From bdc at world.std.com Thu May 3 19:22:28 2001 From: bdc at world.std.com (Brian Chase) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: Back to booting that MicroVAX... In-Reply-To: <008301c0d428$1ac7b590$5b779a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 May 2001, ajp166 wrote: > From: Eric Dittman > > No, the SCSI connector is just a strange DEC-only format. It > > looks like a 68-pin SCSI connector, but it's not. You'll need > > the special SCSI cable to use external devices. > Only on the M76 and later machines. Actually, it's on the VAXstation 3100/M30 (this model is just labelled as VAXstation 3100), the VAXstation 3100/M38, and the VAXstation 3100/M76--at least all the ones I've ever seen--which include the half-dozen sitting here on top of my desk. I believe the oddball 68pin connector is also on the VAXstation 3100/M40 and M48 as well. The VAXserver 3100 I have has a 50pin centronics SCSI port. I believe most if not all of the MicroVAX 3100s did have normal SCSI connectors. The VAXstation 3100 are just a bit odd. And the thing with the VAXstation 3100 68pin connectors is that they are *not* the same pinout as required by the newer 68pin SCSI. If they've actually got a MicroVAX 3100 and not a VAXstation 3100, it shouldn't be a pinout issue. As for reliability issues with my VAXen, I've never had any problems with their hardware with the excepting of a disk or two finally giving up their ghost. Nothing out of the ordinary though. -brian. From bdc at world.std.com Thu May 3 19:29:03 2001 From: bdc at world.std.com (Brian Chase) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: DEC finds and wants In-Reply-To: <3AF1EAEA.82844E78@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 May 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > BTW, I have an M3104. It's supposed to be an 8-line Asynchronous > Multiplexor, with DMA. What does that mean/Do/etc? In PC terms--it's a big-ass multiport serial card. You hang things like terminals and modems off of it. Assuming you've got the cabinet kit as well. The kit is cabled from the M3104 to the 8 DB25 serial port connectors which would normally be mounted on the back of your system. -brian. From bdc at world.std.com Thu May 3 19:33:05 2001 From: bdc at world.std.com (Brian Chase) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: Back to booting that MicroVAX... In-Reply-To: <200105040013.RAA21494@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 May 2001 healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > Only on the M76 and later machines. > > > > Allison > > I don't think the VAXstation 3100/10 is later than a M76, and it's got that > oddball connector. I thought it was the other way around. Also either the > DECstation 2100's and/or 3100's used the same cable. There is no VAXstation 3100/10! You might mean a VAXstation 3100/M30 (a.k.a. the VAXstation 3100) or the MicroVAX 3100/10. The former has the weird 68pin connecter, the later... well I don't know. I don't have one yet. -brian. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 3 19:32:34 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: DEC finds and wants In-Reply-To: Re: DEC finds and wants (Chad Fernandez) References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010502182005.022a8920@208.226.86.10> <3AF1EAEA.82844E78@internet1.net> Message-ID: <15089.63650.314790.943828@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 3, Chad Fernandez wrote: > BTW, I have an M3104. It's supposed to be an 8-line Asynchronous > Multiplexor, with DMA. What does that mean/Do/etc? It's eight serial ports that use DMA (Direct Memory Access) to transfer blocks of characters to/from buffers set up in the host processor's memory. Using DMA is a way to improve the performance of an I/O subsystem by reducing its dependency on the host processor for moving data back and forth. -Dave McGuire From claudew at videotron.ca Thu May 3 19:42:58 2001 From: claudew at videotron.ca (Claude.W) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage References: <3AF1B795.21845.3C45B9DF@localhost> Message-ID: <00fc01c0d433$2a396900$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> Gee Larry, we wont be asking you to start a fan club for this poor woman... Ill check out the report on the re-broadcast.... I emailed Undercurrents and they said: Hi Claude, Thanks for your email. It is too bad we did not interview you - the show will be rebroadcast this Saturday on Newsworld so we hope you catch it. Thanks again - feedback is always welcome. Whatever that means...Gee TV is great, I love the fact there are less and less people sitting in front of the TV these days...anything else I guess is more productive then watching TV... Claude Canuk Computer Collector http://computer_collector.tripod.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Lawrence Walker To: Cc: Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 7:55 PM Subject: Re: Interesting show on the Computer Garage > Typical lazy surface journalism. She (Catherine Legge) contacted me > having gotten my e-mail address from the now defunct Toronto Classic > Computer Collectors web-page or an article written about us in a local > computer paper. I imagine others there were also contacted but given > what she finally produced, who knows. Pretty easy research. > I responded encouragingly but never heard from her again. I guess it was > easier to pull stuff off Jim's site than to do a real story about Canadian > collectors. Another Puffball posing as a journalist. > > Larry > > > Oh well... > > > > With all the exposure of computer collecting I guess this will shot the > > price of vintage stuff on ebay up!!! (lol!) > > > > Well it's a canadian show and they did not come and see me...I think it's > > even based in Montreal, but I am not sure. But then again my collection is > > kinda small compared to this guy...but then again, I don't really collect > > X86 and compatibles...unless they are something outta the ordinary.... > > > > I think it will be broadcast again this week, I will try to grab it...and > > tape it...heck, maybe even try to transfer it to a file or something....I > > think I have somekinda video grab card for a MAC called a Moonraker here > > somewhere...but where? > > > > I can only imagine perhaps the weird and odd machines I might have been > > offered for free with the exposure of going on TV...oh well...there is > > always my "patato chip in the shape of animals" collection that might get me on > > the tube...or my "survivor - in the space station" application...counting on > > that too.... > > > > Life goes on up north...and it's finally hot and the pool is ready... > > > > Claude > > Canuk Computer Collector > > http://computer_collector.tripod.com > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: George Leo Rachor Jr. > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 5:32 PM > > Subject: Re: Interesting show on the Computer Garage > > > > > > > His name is Jim Willing... > > > > > > Congrats Jim! Your famous again! > > > > > > George > > > > > > ========================================================= > > > George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com > > > Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com > > > United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > > > > > > On Wed, 2 May 2001, Chris Halarewich wrote: > > > > > > > Hello all: > > > > Last night, tuesday I was waching Undercurrants on CBC Newsworld > > > > (canadian brodcasting company 24 hr news station ) When I saw a story > > > > about the Compiter Garage in Beverton Oregon, USA very informative > > > > segment kudos to the proprietor (can't remember name right now) > > > > thanx > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > -- > > > > # Netscape POP3 State File > > > > # This is a generated file! Do not edit. > > > > Reply to: > lgwalker@look.ca From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 3 20:23:32 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: Microsoft Knowledge Base Article - q276304 In-Reply-To: <200105031822.LAA11420@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: > > > This article pointer was forwarded to you from the Microsoft Online Support > > > site. http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/q276/3/04.ASP > > Why? > Dunno, but I laughed my butt off. I wonder if the text of War and Peace > would be an acceptable password? Not if you've used it as one of your last 3000 passwords. But if y9ou have 3000+ different such passwords, you could cylcle through them. From allain at panix.com Thu May 3 20:34:17 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: Microsoft Knowledge Base Article - q276304 References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010503064949.00a6bcb0@mail.wincom.net> Message-ID: <00c601c0d43a$55f3b300$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > ...forwarded to you from the Microsoft Online Support > http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/q276/3/04.ASP OK, I'll bite. Latest MIT hack? Could MS be serious with this? John A. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu May 3 20:42:44 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: DEC finds and wants Message-ID: <00b301c0d43d$0e247de0$5b779a8d@ajp166> From: Chad Fernandez >BTW, I have an M3104. It's supposed to be an 8-line Asynchronous >Multiplexor, with DMA. What does that mean/Do/etc? > >Chad Fernandez >Michigan, USA Eight serial ports that can run at full bore with minimal cpu drain. Great for modems and serial interfaced printers. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu May 3 20:45:33 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: Flaky SCSI etc. ( was Re: Back to booting that MicroVAX... Message-ID: <00b401c0d43d$0e9eb6f0$5b779a8d@ajp166> From: Chuck McManis >At 07:16 PM 5/3/2001 -0400, you wrote: >>Only on the M76 and later machines. > >Tell that to the VS3100/M30 :-) > >I'm guessing its all VAXStation machines but its hard to be sure. Vaxstation, Microvax3100 or Vaxserver3100 all mostly the same or similar. >is a brass door that covers the card cage. Now I'm looking at one that has >a brass plate that covers both the card cage and much of the drive area. >When was this introduced? It's not brass it's Cd plated steel. Mid 80s. The first versions was PDP-11 populated. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu May 3 20:47:22 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: Back to booting that MicroVAX... Message-ID: <00b501c0d43d$0f1bfd40$5b779a8d@ajp166> From: healyzh@aracnet.com > >I don't think the VAXstation 3100/10 is later than a M76, and it's got that >oddball connector. I thought it was the other way around. Also either the >DECstation 2100's and/or 3100's used the same cable. The VAXstation if memory serves is later. The MV and DECserver3100s were SCSI-II and before the M76 though the difference was less than a year. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu May 3 20:52:00 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: Back to booting that MicroVAX... Message-ID: <00b601c0d43d$0fa41900$5b779a8d@ajp166> From: Brian Chase >There is no VAXstation 3100/10! You might mean a VAXstation 3100/M30 >(a.k.a. the VAXstation 3100) or the MicroVAX 3100/10. The former has the >weird 68pin connecter, the later... well I don't know. I don't have one >yet. Likely he's lumping Decserver, Vaxserver, decstation and vaxstation all in one pot. Some are similar, some are not! Also the model number does not give away design date and the SCSI-II 50 pin systems were earlier than the HD68. Allison From mwp at acm.org Thu May 3 21:26:10 2001 From: mwp at acm.org (Michael Passer) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: Microsoft Knowledge Base Article - q276304 References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010503064949.00a6bcb0@mail.wincom.net> <00c601c0d43a$55f3b300$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <001e01c0d441$95b1e3c0$0200a8c0@swbell.net> I think they mean MIT's latest hack wrt Kerberos--this problem is probably related to their bastardized proprietary implementation thereof, and probably only effects clients using Kerberos in a cross-platform environment. All that's conjecture, though. --Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allain" To: Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 8:34 PM Subject: Re: Microsoft Knowledge Base Article - q276304 > > ...forwarded to you from the Microsoft Online Support > > http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/q276/3/04.ASP > > OK, I'll bite. Latest MIT hack? Could MS be serious with this? > > John A. > From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu May 3 21:52:12 2001 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: 1mb x 1 memory chips for printers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010504025212.64154.qmail@web9506.mail.yahoo.com> --- Russ Blakeman wrote: > So am I to assume (since I haven't dealt with loose DRAM in years) that the > HY51C4256S-C printed on the 20 pin DIP chips are 4x256, and if so anyone > have a source? I need at least 16 to pop this Laserjet III up to the full 4 > mb. I don't imagine they are the same as the old 256k DRAMs in the older > PC,XT and some AT class machines... Depends on the machine. Some yes, some no. If you find an XT or AT or video card with 20-pin DRAMs with 4256 in the middle of the number and they are fast enough (don't know what yours requires, but my 3rd party card has 60ns parts; probably only needs 80s) they should work. -ethan ===== Visit "The Seventh Continent" http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu May 3 22:25:42 2001 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: Latest find: Victor Comptometer, model 12E.523.157.C need power cord Message-ID: <20010504032542.27340.qmail@web9502.mail.yahoo.com> OK... from visiting various Comptometer sites (including a museum by Victor themselves), this unit appears to be c. 1961, and is powered by a 100-130V motor. The power cord is like nothing I've seen - three brass rods, the middle one (earth), fixed, the outer two slightly floating, about 1.25 cm long, 2-3 mm in diameter, spaced at about 1.25 cm on centers, nearly, but not entirely, in line. The outer two conductors are slightly farther apart than a modern Continental 220V plug. I can tap in power internally, I can maybe use insulated alligator clips, but mostly, I'd like to find a proper mains cord for this. From manually operating the innards, it needs cleaned and oiled, but that's to be expected. -ethan ===== Visit "The Seventh Continent" http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu May 3 22:31:19 2001 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: Is there a viable alternative for DEC Omnibus-era interconnector blocks? Message-ID: <20010504033119.27942.qmail@web9502.mail.yahoo.com> I have this PDP-8/e with at least 12K of core, a spare KK8E board set I could throw in a PDP-8/a box, and an RK8E on the way. The RK8E isn't coming with its own set of module interconnects and I don't have any spares. Has anyone come up with a decent substitute? I've only ever seen shallow edge connectors, but I suppose they'd do. I restored an H-11 that had been turned into a hex-wide box with home made CD interconnects on one end (for an RLV11) by my old boss. He used Heathkit backplane connectors (I have an unsoldered backplane from his spare parts bin). I suppose if I had enough of them, it'd be worth manufacturing a board to make it all more reliable (his were wire-wrapped). Any suggestions? -ethan ===== Visit "The Seventh Continent" http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From jpero at sympatico.ca Thu May 3 18:48:18 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: Finding inexpensive used SCSI drives was: Apple II IDE interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20010504034603.GPGL7009.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 18:09:01 -0400 > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > From: Jeff Hellige > Subject: RE: Apple II IDE interface > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Russ, > > Check out this URL: > > http://sldghamr.faithweb.com/ARS2000FW.html OUCH!! the price!? If you choose your sources well, you can get straight and straight used SCSI drives for handful of dirt. Even Cheaper if bought up the system that has choice of SCSI hd in it and rip it apart for parts and use that HD on other machines of your interest. But, that SCSI to IDE is very NICE idea at HD end especially when upgrading that decent machines as well as on oldie machines using SCSI and IDE drives laying around especially if your machine needs 10 GB or more while new SCSI drives cost is sky-high. Right now my ears is coming out used scsi drives I recently aquired. It was good timings and prices were RIGHT plus my budget is tiny. All of it is given over to staying fed myself and pay part of rent w/ my parents. To give you all of that samples: IBM, seagate 540MB $1ea from ASIS box. Barracuda 2.1GB $1 from same box. Runs hot as h*ll but sluggish due to very low density 210MB per platter x 10. Picked up pair of clean (very little dust) but used pull locally today, seagate ST41600N Elite 1 for 30 CDN. But that wattage rating on it YIKES! Traded some stuff to get quantum fireball ST 3.2GB and Micropolis 2.1GB. Bought up few Mac machines for dirt all has HDs of all sizes ranging from 160MB sleepy, wimpy ones, pair of prodrive 240 (excellent), one of that pair came out of a LC III for $5 from goodwill complete box has 4MB 72pin simm as well. From that source, I also found a unenhanced Mac II w/ original 1987 Q250 that old dog still working for $5. More to go on I say for now that's enough of a start for your ideas to score on cheap sources for scsi drives as well as assorted parts. Many drives I got are in canada some from USA, came through cheaper than paying for *one* SCSI to IDE adapter based on exhange rate! And really saves on shipping if you can find them locally especially on HDs honking big bricks of metal is heavy except for 1" scsi drives is inexpensive to ship while big ones are not. Few times I shipped broken ones for RMA process on 1" x 3.5" drives NY to Calif for 3 to 5 dollars USPS when I was in USA attending NTID at Rochester college. Cheers, Wizard w/ SCSI out numbered IDE drives I own. > Jeff From ip500 at home.com Thu May 3 23:01:43 2001 From: ip500 at home.com (ip500) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: eBay alert: TI 980B mini and a HUGE IBM drive Message-ID: <3AF229A7.E2F2BE1D@home.com> Trying to follow the suggested format for alerting the list to an "unusual" item on eBay. Just listed a very nice TI 980B ..Lots of lights and switches [no blikenlights however .. it does power up but no action on the panel]. The disk drive is a pull from a 3380E IBM drive cabinet and is by far and away the largest I've ever seen .. probably 130+ pounds. For the HTML impaired among us, item numbers are: TI 980B 1235346938 IBM drive 1235355979 These were not offered here first ... What is the "going" price for either?????? eBay, for all it's supposed faults still seems to be the venue of choice for odd and/or unique items. Craig From rhblake at bigfoot.com Thu May 3 23:31:20 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: 1mb x 1 memory chips for printers In-Reply-To: <20010504025212.64154.qmail@web9506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I thought they might be the same as the old 4256 (and possibly the 41256) dram that we used to use in them. The chips soldered on don't have the speed on them so I'm sure just testing some 70's and 80's will let me know if they'll work. I'm almost into my old chip stashes in storage so maybe I'll have an LJ III with 5 mb soon. Thanks > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks > Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 9:52 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: 1mb x 1 memory chips for printers > > > > --- Russ Blakeman wrote: > > So am I to assume (since I haven't dealt with loose DRAM in > years) that the > > HY51C4256S-C printed on the 20 pin DIP chips are 4x256, and if so anyone > > have a source? I need at least 16 to pop this Laserjet III up > to the full 4 > > mb. I don't imagine they are the same as the old 256k DRAMs in the older > > PC,XT and some AT class machines... > > Depends on the machine. Some yes, some no. If you find an XT or AT or > video card with 20-pin DRAMs with 4256 in the middle of the number and > they are fast enough (don't know what yours requires, but my 3rd party > card has 60ns parts; probably only needs 80s) they should work. > > -ethan > > > > ===== > Visit "The Seventh Continent" > http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu May 3 22:55:14 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: Apple II IDE interface In-Reply-To: <3AF19801.1080106@chisp.net> References: Message-ID: >I posted this mostly for the hardware nuts and soldering-iron jockeys. >Besides, I doubt the pre-built ones sell for $5. Actually he says $15 US in parts, and the board he is using is all point to point wiring, ie no circuit board available. Software is at the read and write absolute sector stage, ie no software. $69 gets a fully functioning system with a track record and preloaded with software. If you want one, most likely you don't want the other. I do agree with the board author, the II series is a LOT of fun to tinker on. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu May 3 23:35:19 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: Cray J90 at Boeing Long Beach Cal In-Reply-To: <00b501c0d43d$0f1bfd40$5b779a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: Cray J90 at Boeing Long Beach Cal May 15 auction (sealed bid) From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu May 3 23:53:17 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: 1mb x 1 memory chips for printers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >So am I to assume (since I haven't dealt with loose DRAM in years) that the >HY51C4256S-C printed on the 20 pin DIP chips are 4x256, and if so anyone >have a source? I need at least 16 to pop this Laserjet III up to the full 4 >mb. I don't imagine they are the same as the old 256k DRAMs in the older >PC,XT and some AT class machines... Dogpile search on 51c4256* yields 3 maybes, USbid.com coughs up the following and apage more after I register. 44256-SOJ(HM514256AJP-8;T... --- HIT --- 1000 US $ 1.2966 Fixed Price Buy Now 44256-SOJ(HM514256AJP8) --- HIT 89 2380 US $ 2.1611 Fixed Price Buy Now MSM514256A80ZSB --- OKI --- 68 US $ 8.2583 Fixed Price Buy Now Can't say that I am happy even at a buck each, but I have barely started to look. Anybody have a part number for the 1x 1 MB parts, or a guess if the above parts look correct? (yeah I know, look in one of your old data books....). Do I want dip or is that what soj means? From rhblake at bigfoot.com Fri May 4 01:04:47 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: 1mb x 1 memory chips for printers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ouch - that's more like the pricing for 1986 for these. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Mike Ford > Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 11:53 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: 1mb x 1 memory chips for printers > > > >So am I to assume (since I haven't dealt with loose DRAM in > years) that the > >HY51C4256S-C printed on the 20 pin DIP chips are 4x256, and if so anyone > >have a source? I need at least 16 to pop this Laserjet III up to > the full 4 > >mb. I don't imagine they are the same as the old 256k DRAMs in the older > >PC,XT and some AT class machines... > > Dogpile search on 51c4256* yields 3 maybes, USbid.com coughs up the > following and apage more after I register. > > 44256-SOJ(HM514256AJP-8;T... --- HIT --- > 1000 US > $ 1.2966 Fixed Price Buy Now > 44256-SOJ(HM514256AJP8) --- HIT 89 2380 US > $ 2.1611 Fixed Price Buy Now > MSM514256A80ZSB --- OKI --- 68 US $ 8.2583 > Fixed Price Buy Now > > Can't say that I am happy even at a buck each, but I have barely > started to > look. > > Anybody have a part number for the 1x 1 MB parts, or a guess if the above > parts look correct? (yeah I know, look in one of your old data books....). > Do I want dip or is that what soj means? > > From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Wed May 2 16:36:24 2001 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (jos.mar) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: Zuse info available on www.zuse.org Message-ID: <01050223425101.00397@jos> Thos of you interested in Zuse's old work should move to www.zuse.org This site is made by Karl Zuse's son. The site mainly exists to sell a multimedia CD that is upposed to be filled to the brink with information on Karl Zuse's machines, from the mechanical Z1 until the end of the Zuse company. An interesting note : a copy of the Z3 is being made, with modern relais that feature a LED reflecting the relais state. This machine will make the rounds in Germany soon. Jos Dreesen From jpero at sympatico.ca Thu May 3 22:07:52 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: HP mouse and DEC coiled cable and wanted items to trade or buy. In-Reply-To: References: <3AF19801.1080106@chisp.net> Message-ID: <20010504070539.HKKH25498.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Here's the two items I'm peddling off to trade for one or two ADB M-M cables. Shipping is free because these two items is rather light. If any of you want either one or both let me know. HP mouse, 46060A. Condition: light scuff marks, bit bent to one of two latches but *no* damage on that jack end, still can latch. Only two items, missing locking ring and has non-original HP mouse ball. Does roll freely when moved around viewed through plexglas. I know the spring loaded is pushing ball against two rollers. Do not have HP machine to test this with. ASIS, either try or for parts to fix other HP mouse. Digital Equipment Corporation, coiled cable w/ jacks part number: 17-02643-03, assembled in USA on that sticker. Still heat-sealed bag is well-handled but the cable itself is still new and undamaged. Also inside that still-sealed bag is piece of folded paper, appears to be diagram of a back of a keyboard w/ that cable. Hard to tell because I'm viewing that shadow from paper wrong side.. Also I have Compaq replacement motherboard for LTE 386s/20 still unopened in it's packaging like new and worn original box it came in. The bios version is -003 means it does support dual 8MB modules. This is rare few notebooks to have cache the system performance tests proves this. Yes, I looked through that anti-static package on that bios version with strong flashlight and lope and looked at quick reference. By the way, one used 8MB card for that LTE 386s/20, perfect match to go with this replacement LTE 386s/20 motherboard, it works in my former LTE 386s/20 bios -002 but according to quick ref says bios -003 is required to handle two 8MB modules. This card also work in all LTE Lite series but not LTE Lite4 series. Wanted: For this compaq parts or to buy, I'm looking for Mac logic board or stripped of down of its drives mac w/ motherboard and vram still in it. Interest of items I'm looking for: LC475, Quadra 605. In these two models, If that pair of vram sticks is missing it won't work and I do not have two vram sticks on hand. Or, HPV 1MB video card PDS for 7100 and 8100. Or, LC PDS ethernet daughterboard for LC, II, III and III+, performa 465/466. TP (jack type) but I could accept coax interface (BNC type). Looking to buy for my use: If you have crashed fireball ST scsi 3.2GB but good circuit board, I need it, I pay both shipping and small cost for it. I suggest ditch the HD pack, just that circuit board to save on shipping and for data security if that pack turned out good. Cannot be 1.6GB, 2.1GB, 4.8GB or 6.4GB due to programming on that circuit board is not same as 3.2GB. Only requirement these defectives should spin up and whack noisily it's heads silly, signifying disc pack is gone. The bad logic boards makes HD totally dead, no spin, no seeks. That is, you can save those if you find good boards for these like I'm doing to mine. Warrenty period on these fireball ST series is over or about running out. Cheers, Wizard From bdc at world.std.com Fri May 4 02:18:11 2001 From: bdc at world.std.com (Brian Chase) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? In-Reply-To: <01050223425101.00397@jos> Message-ID: Does anyone know how many transistors made up the 6502? These days with Intel's boasting of the number of transistors their latest processors use, it'd be interesting to know what we used to get by using. What, it can't have been more than a few thousand, right? And then it'd be rather fun to implement your very own 6502 using 74* series logic chips. -brian. From jpero at sympatico.ca Thu May 3 22:34:54 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: 1mb x 1 memory chips for printers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20010504073239.HARG28559.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > From: "Russ Blakeman" > To: > Subject: RE: 1mb x 1 memory chips for printers > Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 01:04:47 -0500 > Importance: Normal > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Ouch - that's more like the pricing for 1986 for these. You seems not to realize that all these old memories before FPM is no longer made, this cause that price to explode. Even EDO is cut severely in production or few productors has stopped putting out EDO stuff. Secondly, seems only that 1M x 1bit DIPs is most unpopular type and most rare to find anywhere even still socketed in old boards. Since then, I have only seen this kind 8 years ago on my rare few fingers on one hand. At that time, 64K and 256K chips of any bits is wildly popular and jumped right over 1M x 1bit and 1M x 4bits to 30 and 72 simms. Even I didn't own none of indivdual 1M chips on my hand ever used or new except for one soldered down 8MB intel 32bit card using 1M x 1bit 80ns DIPs for Intel 386 motherboard I found at junkyard for $5 2 yr ago. it's still gathering dust since I haven't seen Intel 386 motherboard for that 8MB card. Very frustrating to watch prices climb to sky-high prices on these stuff. There are too many working 486 and Pentiums even early slot 1 in use using 30pin or 72pin. As well as still-useful Mac machines still use both FPM and EDO in both 30pin, 72pin simms and DIMMs (that's right there's FPM and EDO DIMMs, saw EDO DIMM in late IBM pentium box few days ago.) as well as other types of memories especially for video. Keep digging for very old clone 286 and 386dx, 386sx motherboards these often used DIP chips either 256K or 1M in each socket. You might score one full of 1M x 1bit chips. Also some early deskpros used socketed DIPs as well. Or, just pay through the nose and lose few appendages even losing sexual ability if you have to grab those duious "golden" memory pieces. Cheers, Wizard From jpero at sympatico.ca Thu May 3 22:51:44 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? In-Reply-To: References: <01050223425101.00397@jos> Message-ID: <20010504074930.HLZP27183.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 02:18:11 -0500 > From: Brian Chase > To: > Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > And then it'd be rather fun to implement your very own 6502 using 74* > series logic chips. Possible, but length of traces to wire all those together will keep it to KHz range and needs few large boards that needs so much power that hottest athlon cpu is low power by comparsion. I have seen photos of apple IIe prototype laid out on early pre-production logic board, one of that 40 pin chipset socket is hooked to a equally same size board filled to the 4 edges with tightly packed TTLs and few large ICs, I think it was shown in Byte as well as few other publicatons. Large board full of chips vs. 40 pin IC, same thing...Amazing! Side effect to this, you get less power requirement and can speed up whole thing and more rapid signals due to very short traces and on-die itself. That is why TTL-based microcomputers and mainframes has massive PSUs even using switching technologies and mini-tunnel wind effect to cool everything. While same computing power can be on one 4pin chip microcontroller and run on 1 AA directly for hours even weeks under hottest sun. Cheers, Wizard From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Fri May 4 04:58:23 2001 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: Latest find: Victor Comptometer, model 12E.523.157.C need power cord In-Reply-To: <20010504032542.27340.qmail@web9502.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 May 2001 20:25:42 -0700 (PDT) Ethan Dicks wrote: > The power cord is like nothing I've seen - three > brass rods, the middle one (earth), fixed, the outer two slightly > floating, about 1.25 cm long, 2-3 mm in diameter, spaced at about 1.25 cm > on centers, nearly, but not entirely, in line. That sounds like the type of connector that's used in Switzerland. Can any Swiss collectors confirm this? -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From mark_k at iname.com Fri May 4 06:25:19 2001 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: Toshiba T2000SX laptop Message-ID: Hi, I bought a Toshiba T2000SX laptop PC a while ago. This was made in early 1991. 16 MHz 386SX CPU, 1MB RAM on board with another 4MB on plug-in memory card. Monochrome LCD screen, with VGA port on rear for connection to monitor. Anyway, there seem to be two problems with it. Other than these, I can boot it from floppy disk and (just about) read text on the screen. - The LCD backlight does not work. Is there a special key combination to turn it on? Assuming it is faulty, how would I open up the screen; there doesn't seem to be an easy way to do that. - The supplied hard disk was a 40MB 2.5" Conner CP2044PK, seemingly defective; it made funny noises when powered on. I replaced this with a known-good Seagate 500MB drive. Still no luck, that drive is not recognised. Perhaps the on-board IDE controller is faulty, or the machine's BIOS is hard-coded for certain specific drive types? Does anyone have any ideas? -- Mark From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri May 4 06:07:43 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: Finding inexpensive used SCSI drives was: Apple II IDE interface In-Reply-To: <20010504034603.GPGL7009.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> References: <20010504034603.GPGL7009.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: > > Check out this URL: >> >> http://sldghamr.faithweb.com/ARS2000FW.html > >OUCH!! the price!? If you choose your sources well, you can get >straight and straight used SCSI drives for handful of dirt. >Even Cheaper if bought up the system that has choice of SCSI hd in it >and rip it apart for parts and use that HD on other machines of your >interest. SCSI drives above 10gig are still pretty expensive though. You could easily buy the inline adapter and a new IDE drive and not pay as much as for just the SCSI drive. I've always used SCSI myself, but am moving away from it when possible due to it's much higher price for a comparable capacity. I've got plenty of sub-1gig SCSI drives that I pick up from various souces though since I do have a lot of machine that use it. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri May 4 06:03:54 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? Message-ID: <001201c0d48b$51bbf8f0$ba749a8d@ajp166> From: Brian Chase >Does anyone know how many transistors made up the 6502? These days with >Intel's boasting of the number of transistors their latest processors use, >it'd be interesting to know what we used to get by using. What, it can't >have been more than a few thousand, right? Memory says it was one of the lower transistor count cpus, very efficient design. >And then it'd be rather fun to implement your very own 6502 using 74* >series logic chips. I'd bet it would be fairly high chip count. IT would be interesting to see how fast you cound make it go. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri May 4 06:13:46 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? Message-ID: <001301c0d48b$521c4160$ba749a8d@ajp166> From: jpero@sympatico.ca > From: Brian Chase > > And then it'd be rather fun to implement your very own 6502 using 74* > series logic chips. >Possible, but length of traces to wire all those together will keep >it to KHz range and needs few large boards that needs so much power >that hottest athlon cpu is low power by comparsion. It would eat power but it would not be that slow. The mos logic of the time was quite slow compared to the ttl of the time. I did do a 2901C version of z80 and it was much faster than the MOS version, not due to the 2901s as they were logic savers but the acutal speed bottleneck as well. I have seen photos of apple IIe prototype laid out on early pre-production logic board, one of that 40 pin chipset socket is hooked to a equally same size board filled to the 4 edges with tightly packed TTLs and few large ICs, I think it was shown in Byte as well as few other publicatons. Large board full of chips vs. 40 pin IC, same thing...Amazing! That was replaced by a 2000 or so gate array so thats were it all went. Also the proto was built of all SSI TTL making it less dense. I did some work like that in the early 80s. Logic was faster than you think. It's true to get to the sub 100ns range for serious cpus you have to get the interconnect problem out of the way. However for a fairly fast machine (4-10mhz clocks) there are many examples that are mostly ttl. For starters the PDP-8E ca. 1971ish executes instructions in 1.4uS for the base modes and that was SSI ttl on low density boards. FYI it was limited by the core cycle time not the TTL, I ran one at nearly twice speed easily with semicon memory. Allison From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri May 4 06:12:08 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? In-Reply-To: <20010504074930.HLZP27183.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> References: <01050223425101.00397@jos> <20010504074930.HLZP27183.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: >I have seen photos of apple IIe prototype laid out on early >pre-production logic board, one of that 40 pin chipset socket is >hooked to a equally same size board filled to the 4 edges with >tightly packed TTLs and few large ICs, I think it was shown in Byte >as well as few other publicatons. Large board full of chips vs. 40 >pin IC, same thing...Amazing! Then there is the Amiga prototype that was spread across four large boards, 1 for each custom chip. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From terryc at woa.com.au Fri May 4 06:25:51 2001 From: terryc at woa.com.au (Terry Collins) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:01 2005 Subject: Toshiba T2000SX laptop References: Message-ID: <3AF291BF.CDAD63B8@woa.com.au> Mark wrote: . Perhaps the on-board IDE controller is faulty, or the machine's > BIOS is hard-coded for certain specific drive types? About that time, you had to select one of the predefined set of parameters in BIOS. No auto recognition. -- Terry Collins {:-)}}} Ph(02) 4627 2186 Fax(02) 4628 7861 email: terryc@woa.com.au www: http://www.woa.com.au WOA Computer Services "People without trees are like fish without clean water" From patrick.cardon at x-ca.com Fri May 4 08:18:17 2001 From: patrick.cardon at x-ca.com (Patrick Cardon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: Apple /// - Mac Port! Message-ID: Can't believe my luck having found an Apple /// with HDD and /// monitor for not even $30 at a local fair here in Belgium. The guy had a whole pile of them. He even "forgot" his only DOS system disk in my drive... A once in a lifetime chance... The_Applefreak -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010504/25bee0f8/attachment.html From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri May 4 08:54:51 2001 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: 1mb x 1 memory chips for printers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010504135451.17448.qmail@web9504.mail.yahoo.com> --- Russ Blakeman wrote: > Ouch - that's more like the pricing for 1986 for these. You sure about that? I think we were paying more than that per 256Kx1 chip. In 1987, IIRC, when the Commerce Dept accused Korean DRAM manufacturers of dumping, the price went from $3.50/41256 chip to $17.50. I had a 1.5Mb Spirit "Inboard" for my Amiga 1000 - it would have cost me $1000 to fill it, but I managed to scavenge an engineering prototype from the trash at work that was partially filled with RAM... 50256 chips (ceramic package, MIL-SPEC) for which the company paid $80.00 each a few years earlier. > > Dogpile search on 51c4256* yields 3 maybes, USbid.com coughs up the > > following and apage more after I register. > > > > 44256-SOJ(HM514256AJP-8;T... --- HIT --- > > 1000 US > > $ 1.2966 Fixed Price Buy Now > > 44256-SOJ(HM514256AJP8) --- HIT 89 2380 US > > $ 2.1611 Fixed Price Buy Now > > MSM514256A80ZSB --- OKI --- 68 US $ 8.2583 > > Fixed Price Buy Now > > > > Can't say that I am happy even at a buck each, but I have barely > > started to > > look. > > > > Anybody have a part number for the 1x 1 MB parts, or a guess if the above > > parts look correct? (yeah I know, look in one of your old data books....). > > Do I want dip or is that what soj means? SOJ is a surface-mount packaging. You almost certainly want DIP. Try AmericaII Electronics - http://www.americaii.com/ I've bought from them in the past. Caveat: not all my buying experiences were smooth, but I would buy from them again. -ethan ===== Visit "The Seventh Continent" http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri May 4 09:01:05 2001 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: 1mb x 1 memory chips for printers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010504140105.18302.qmail@web9504.mail.yahoo.com> --- Russ Blakeman wrote: > I thought they might be the same as the old 4256 (and possibly the 41256) > dram that we used to use in them. 414256, yes. 41256, no. One is a 1Mb chip, arranged as 4 x 256K, the other is a 256K chip, arranged as 256K x 1. Different number of pins. You will be able to spot the difference. I used to scavenge ATs for them to fill Amiga boards like the A590 and A2091. The other place I needed them was for the VAXBI COMBOARD - 2Mb of 256x4 because we recycled our old 256x1 DRAM design from the COMBOARD-II and still had several centuries-worth of 74S409 DRAM controllers lying around (still have many, many pounds of them on the shelf). Besides using old stock, the other advantage was that only one of our software products needed more than 32Kb of RAM on the serial card, so we could populate one bank (512Kb) and still run all the software that was ever ported to it. -ethan ===== Visit "The Seventh Continent" http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From sipke at wxs.nl Fri May 4 09:50:46 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? References: <001201c0d48b$51bbf8f0$ba749a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <00b501c0d4a9$9d0cd7c0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> With hindsight one can consider the 6502 to be the only 8-bit RISC CPU It had a reduced number of registers compared with the 6800 and this and other logic-reduction simplified the design so it could execute code a lot more efficiently as compared with the 6800. Also the 256-bytes Zero-page could be regarded as an (extended) RISC-like registerset of the CPU. I remember a magazine (BYTE?) describe the 6502 as a true RISC-chip but I don't thing the designers had RISC-CISC philosofies in their heads while working it out. Only 6809 bas a "better" chip but that should have been a true 16-bit design It came way to late to make a large impact. Only the COCO used it in a homecomputer. Sipke de Wal ---------------------------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: ajp166 To: Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 1:03 PM Subject: Re: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? > From: Brian Chase > > >Does anyone know how many transistors made up the 6502? These days with > >Intel's boasting of the number of transistors their latest processors > use, > >it'd be interesting to know what we used to get by using. What, it > can't > >have been more than a few thousand, right? > > > Memory says it was one of the lower transistor count cpus, very efficient > design. > > >And then it'd be rather fun to implement your very own 6502 using 74* > >series logic chips. > > > I'd bet it would be fairly high chip count. IT would be interesting to > see how fast > you cound make it go. > > Allison > > From norm.anheier at pnl.gov Fri May 4 09:51:44 2001 From: norm.anheier at pnl.gov (Norm Anheier) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: For Trade: PDP-11/23 Message-ID: <3AF2C1FE.42560AB5@pnl.gov> I have a PDP-11/23 in a BA-23 enclosure (for example see: http://www.telnet.hu/hamster/pdp-11/kepek/updp1123.jpg). I rescued this from a recycler. Anyone interested in this, I don't collect full systems -- yet! I am willing to part this out if you need something specific. Unfortunately the case is cracked and the front and back bezels and the processor and coprocessor chips are gone. Everything else is there. I have no idea what components are functional. It would be great if someone has some use for this, otherwise its going back to the recycler. Any trades for oldprocessor chips would be appreciated. Also, I frequently see old minicomputers, such as the PDP-11 at the scrapyard. I have no idea what is common and what is on everyones most wanted list. Anyone have any pointers to such a "most wanted list"? Thanks Norm From rhblake at bigfoot.com Fri May 4 09:57:51 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: 1mb x 1 memory chips for printers In-Reply-To: <20010504135451.17448.qmail@web9504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: You're probably right on this, I thought they were 3 or 4 bucks each but they were likely higher. Never heard of $17 each though, would have never upgraded at that money (average bank of 8 x $17 gets to be a huge chunk of cash) > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 8:55 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: 1mb x 1 memory chips for printers > > > > --- Russ Blakeman wrote: > > Ouch - that's more like the pricing for 1986 for these. > > You sure about that? I think we were paying more than that per 256Kx1 > chip. In 1987, IIRC, when the Commerce Dept accused Korean DRAM > manufacturers > of dumping, the price went from $3.50/41256 chip to $17.50. I had a 1.5Mb > Spirit "Inboard" for my Amiga 1000 - it would have cost me $1000 > to fill it, > but I managed to scavenge an engineering prototype from the trash at work > that was partially filled with RAM... 50256 chips (ceramic > package, MIL-SPEC) > for which the company paid $80.00 each a few years earlier. > > > > Dogpile search on 51c4256* yields 3 maybes, USbid.com coughs up the > > > following and apage more after I register. > > > > > > 44256-SOJ(HM514256AJP-8;T... --- HIT --- > > > 1000 US > > > $ 1.2966 Fixed Price Buy Now > > > 44256-SOJ(HM514256AJP8) --- HIT 89 2380 US > > > $ 2.1611 Fixed Price Buy Now > > > MSM514256A80ZSB --- OKI --- 68 US > $ 8.2583 > > > Fixed Price Buy Now > > > > > > Can't say that I am happy even at a buck each, but I have barely > > > started to > > > look. > > > > > > Anybody have a part number for the 1x 1 MB parts, or a guess > if the above > > > parts look correct? (yeah I know, look in one of your old > data books....). > > > Do I want dip or is that what soj means? > > SOJ is a surface-mount packaging. You almost certainly want DIP. Try > AmericaII Electronics - http://www.americaii.com/ I've bought from them > in the past. Caveat: not all my buying experiences were smooth, but I > would buy from them again. > > -ethan > > > > ===== > Visit "The Seventh Continent" > http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From emu at ecubics.com Fri May 4 10:21:54 2001 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: For Trade: PDP-11/23 References: <3AF2C1FE.42560AB5@pnl.gov> Message-ID: <3AF2C912.FEFD3C52@ecubics.com> Norm Anheier wrote: > > I have a PDP-11/23 in a BA-23 enclosure (for example see: > http://www.telnet.hu/hamster/pdp-11/kepek/updp1123.jpg). I rescued this > from a recycler. Anyone interested in this, I don't collect full > systems -- yet! I am willing to part this out if you need something > specific. Unfortunately the case is cracked and the front and back > bezels and the processor and coprocessor chips are gone. Everything > else is there. I have no idea what components are functional. It would > be great if someone has some use for this, otherwise its going back to > the recycler. Any trades for oldprocessor chips would be appreciated. > > Also, I frequently see old minicomputers, such as the PDP-11 at the > scrapyard. I have no idea what is common and what is on everyones most > wanted list. Anyone have any pointers to such a "most wanted list"? There is always demand for pdp's ;-) But tell us WHERE you are ... cheers From emu at ecubics.com Fri May 4 10:23:59 2001 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? References: <01050223425101.00397@jos> <20010504074930.HLZP27183.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <3AF2C98F.6846A24B@ecubics.com> jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > > > And then it'd be rather fun to implement your very own 6502 using 74* > > series logic chips. > > Possible, but length of traces to wire all those together will keep > it to KHz range and needs few large boards that needs so much power > that hottest athlon cpu is low power by comparsion. Nope. If you know what you're doing, you can wire wrap boards pretty easy up to 20-30 MHz. We had to do it many times for graphic boards. cheers From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri May 4 10:38:08 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: 1mb x 1 memory chips for printers In-Reply-To: <20010504073239.HARG28559.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> References: Message-ID: >intel 32bit card using 1M x 1bit 80ns DIPs for Intel 386 motherboard >I found at junkyard for $5 2 yr ago. it's still gathering dust since >I haven't seen Intel 386 motherboard for that 8MB card. One of my friends is a SERIOUS chip scavenger (he repairs old video games), and he has a solder pot etc. to easily pull parts. I may just gather up a bunch of old motherboards and spend a stinky afternoon in his garage. Once I know what I am looking for that is. ;) From celt at chisp.net Fri May 4 11:32:51 2001 From: celt at chisp.net (Michael Maginnis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: Apple II IDE interface References: Message-ID: <3AF2D9B3.8080307@chisp.net> Mike Ford wrote: >>I posted this mostly for the hardware nuts and soldering-iron jockeys. >>Besides, I doubt the pre-built ones sell for $5. >> > > Actually he says $15 US in parts, and the board he is using is all point to > point wiring, ie no circuit board available. Software is at the read and > write absolute sector stage, ie no software. > > $69 gets a fully functioning system with a track record and preloaded with > software. > > If you want one, most likely you don't want the other. I do agree with the > board author, the II series is a LOT of fun to tinker on. > > > I only briefly skimmed the page - his usenet post said $5. Must have been a typo. - Mike From foo at siconic.com Fri May 4 10:43:46 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: PMC MicroMate In-Reply-To: <002c01c0d354$579b8f20$0a00a8c0@azog> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 May 2001, Billy D'Augustine wrote: > Got an interesting mail from a fellow who has a "PMC MicroMate" CP/M > computer, and was wondering about it. The specs are neat - it's a fast > Z80 (4MHz), but has 128k of RAM (so I guess it's CP/M-Plus, or a > heavily modified version of 2.2), an internal 400k floppy and some > sort of interface for three external drives. Am asking for details on > the external drive interface. The machine doesn't sound familiar to > me, but it sounds like a neat little thing - it's just a boxen, you > need a TTY. It?s a nice little compact CP/M box. It should actually have a 5.25" floppy, not a 400K 3.5". I have one sans floppy drive. Grab it if you like small, compact, shoebox-sized CP/M machines. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From edick at idcomm.com Fri May 4 11:48:28 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? References: <01050223425101.00397@jos> <20010504074930.HLZP27183.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <000f01c0d4ba$0b9084c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Please see remarks embedded below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 9:51 PM Subject: Re: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? > > Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 02:18:11 -0500 > > From: Brian Chase > > To: > > Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? > > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > > > > And then it'd be rather fun to implement your very own 6502 using 74* > > series logic chips. > > Possible, but length of traces to wire all those together will keep > it to KHz range and needs few large boards that needs so much power > that hottest athlon cpu is low power by comparsion. > Back in the mid-80's I built a 6502 equivalent circuit in STTL using wire-wrap and fit it on a nominally 5x8" wirewrap board with space remaining. I didn't measure power, but that's not the issue. I didn't implement the extra adder stages in the ALU to support the BCD-mode instructions, but otherwise the thing seemed to execute the existing 6502 code adequately. This sort of thing is not easy to verify in an APPLE environment because of the timing accomodations made to support seamless integration into the NTSC video scheme. I don't remember the scale on which the NMOS 6502 was built but it must have been about 4-5 microns. In '85 they guys in the IC mfg industry were bragging up their 2 micron process. > > I have seen photos of apple IIe prototype laid out on early > pre-production logic board, one of that 40 pin chipset socket is > hooked to a equally same size board filled to the 4 edges with > tightly packed TTLs and few large ICs, I think it was shown in Byte > as well as few other publicatons. Large board full of chips vs. 40 > pin IC, same thing...Amazing! > It's not a bad idea to remember that in '79, when HP was bragging up their 450k-transistor CPU that dissipated 7 watts, IBM was routinely making IC's with 1M transistors in packages about an inch square. They just didn't brag about it. > > Side effect to this, you get less power requirement and can speed up > whole thing and more rapid signals due to very short traces and > on-die itself. > > That is why TTL-based microcomputers and mainframes has massive PSUs > even using switching technologies and mini-tunnel wind effect to cool > everything. While same computing power can be on one 4pin chip > microcontroller and run on 1 AA directly for hours even weeks under > hottest sun. > While some of the points made here are arguably correct, taken by themselves, they don't wash in a real-world/real-history context. > > Cheers, > > Wizard > > From edick at idcomm.com Fri May 4 11:52:39 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? References: <01050223425101.00397@jos> <20010504074930.HLZP27183.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> <3AF2C98F.6846A24B@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <001701c0d4ba$a0d9ae80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> My first prototype of my all-digital clock-data separator circuitry was wire-wrapped and operated nicely at 80 MHz. The speeds mentioned by Emanuel are certainly realistic, and certainly not the upper end of what was done with wire-wrapped high-speed logic. When high-speed (CMOS/STTL/FTTL) circuits failed to function reliably using wirewrap technology, it was normally due to inadequate power supply distrubution/bypassing. ECL always worked very well with wirewrap, often better than with PCB's. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "emanuel stiebler" To: Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 9:23 AM Subject: Re: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? > jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > > > > > And then it'd be rather fun to implement your very own 6502 using 74* > > > series logic chips. > > > > Possible, but length of traces to wire all those together will keep > > it to KHz range and needs few large boards that needs so much power > > that hottest athlon cpu is low power by comparsion. > > Nope. If you know what you're doing, you can wire wrap boards pretty > easy up to 20-30 MHz. > We had to do it many times for graphic boards. > > cheers > > From chomko at greenbelt.com Fri May 4 11:59:56 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? References: <001201c0d48b$51bbf8f0$ba749a8d@ajp166> <00b501c0d4a9$9d0cd7c0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <3AF2E00C.BA2CEF2F@greenbelt.com> Sipke de Wal wrote: > With hindsight one can consider the 6502 to be the only 8-bit RISC CPU > It had a reduced number of registers compared with the 6800 and this and > other logic-reduction simplified the design so it could execute code a lot > more efficiently as compared with the 6800. Also the 256-bytes Zero-page > could be regarded as an (extended) RISC-like registerset of the CPU. > Many looked at the zero-page and the 8 bit stack pointer as shortcomings. It was the X and Y index registers both 8 bit, that made the chip interesting. The X/Y pair made memory-madpped video graphics easier to implement. > > I remember a magazine (BYTE?) describe the 6502 as a true RISC-chip > but I don't thing the designers had RISC-CISC philosofies in their heads > while working it out. > RISC per se didn't come out until the 80s. > > Only 6809 bas a "better" chip but that should have been a true 16-bit design > It came way to late to make a large impact. Only the COCO used it in a > homecomputer. > The 6809 was fine as a 8 bit chip with a 16 bit internal architecture, and many home computers used the 6809 CPU not just the CoCo. SWPTC made one. The operating system OS/9 was built around that chip. Viirtually every manufacturer of the SS-50 bus had a 6809-based system, and that would be around a half dozen. The CoCo may be the most well known but not the only. Eric > > Sipke de Wal > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://xgistor.ath.cx > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ajp166 > To: > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 1:03 PM > Subject: Re: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? > > > From: Brian Chase > > > > >Does anyone know how many transistors made up the 6502? These days with > > >Intel's boasting of the number of transistors their latest processors > > use, > > >it'd be interesting to know what we used to get by using. What, it > > can't > > >have been more than a few thousand, right? > > > > > > Memory says it was one of the lower transistor count cpus, very efficient > > design. > > > > >And then it'd be rather fun to implement your very own 6502 using 74* > > >series logic chips. > > > > > > I'd bet it would be fairly high chip count. IT would be interesting to > > see how fast > > you cound make it go. > > > > Allison > > > > From vcf at siconic.com Fri May 4 11:15:43 2001 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: Archaeology Article In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 2 May 2001, you wrote: > On 2001-05-01 classiccmp@classiccmp.org said: > >On Wed, 25 April 2001, John Keys wrote: > >> Picked the issue at the news stand today that had the 2 page > >>article on classic computers staring our own Sellam Ismail. It > >>was fun reading and now I have to see this former car plant that > >>serves as your warehouse. I have to get me rich uncle so that I > >>can get that kind of space. Articles like this are great for our > >>collecting efforts as more and more people learn about they seek > >>us out to donate their old computers. Keep up the good work. > > Is it possible to put a scan of this article online somewhere? > This magazine isn't available over here... I'm not able to do a scan just yet but here is a URL where an abstract of the article can be found. Mind you, it's a very small excerpt. The full article is two pages. http://www.archaeology.org/curiss/abstracts/scene.html Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From rhblake at bigfoot.com Fri May 4 12:16:04 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: 1mb x 1 memory chips for printers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sounds like what he needs is the IR desolderer I used when I worked last Xmas for Jabil Circuits in Louisville - it looks like an oversized microscope and you aim the light source on the part you want to remove and watch the TV display (magnified view) for when the solder drops out from becoming soft. Pull the part and set the board to the side. Strange thing is that it affects the solder, not the chip. I don't think he wants to spend around $10k for a desoldering tool that would mostly just impress people. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Mike Ford > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 10:38 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: 1mb x 1 memory chips for printers > > > >intel 32bit card using 1M x 1bit 80ns DIPs for Intel 386 motherboard > >I found at junkyard for $5 2 yr ago. it's still gathering dust since > >I haven't seen Intel 386 motherboard for that 8MB card. > > One of my friends is a SERIOUS chip scavenger (he repairs old > video games), > and he has a solder pot etc. to easily pull parts. I may just gather up a > bunch of old motherboards and spend a stinky afternoon in his garage. > > Once I know what I am looking for that is. ;) > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 4 12:23:33 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? In-Reply-To: Re: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? (Richard Erlacher) References: <01050223425101.00397@jos> <20010504074930.HLZP27183.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> <3AF2C98F.6846A24B@ecubics.com> <001701c0d4ba$a0d9ae80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <15090.58773.915839.329516@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 4, Richard Erlacher wrote: > My first prototype of my all-digital clock-data separator circuitry was > wire-wrapped and operated nicely at 80 MHz. The speeds mentioned by Emanuel are > certainly realistic, and certainly not the upper end of what was done with > wire-wrapped high-speed logic. I have to agree with Richard here. Back in 1986/87, I worked on the Navier-Stokes Supercomputer project at Princeton University...the prototype processors for that machine were wire-wrapped (most of the boards by me! 8-)) and signals ran between 20-30MHz. We had no problems at all. We used twisted-pair wiring for some of the clock lines as I recall, but the vast majority of the wiring was simple point-to-point wirewrap with no special routing considerations of any kind. Don't knock wire-wrapping...it's fast, easy, works very well, and properly done and cared for, it will last for years. And if you're a weirdo like me (and I know some of you are) it can even be FUN! 8-) As an interesting side note, that supercomputer (the project is still underway from what I'm told, undergoing various refinements to keep pace with advancing technology) is built on Unibus-form-factor boards, using PDP11/24-style expansion chassis. It was a cheap and easy way to get nice, compact chassis with high-quality power supplies and very well-known (and large) board geometries. -Dave McGuire From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 4 12:43:47 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: Latest find: Victor Comptometer, model 12E.523.157.C need power cord In-Reply-To: from "John Honniball" at May 4, 1 10:58:23 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1039 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010504/a4be973b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 4 12:48:40 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? In-Reply-To: <00b501c0d4a9$9d0cd7c0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> from "Sipke de Wal" at May 4, 1 04:50:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 755 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010504/2ff4d670/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 4 12:54:05 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: DEC finds and wants In-Reply-To: <3AF1EAEA.82844E78@internet1.net> from "Chad Fernandez" at May 3, 1 07:34:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 858 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010504/981be427/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 4 12:39:46 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? In-Reply-To: <20010504074930.HLZP27183.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> from "jpero@sympatico.ca" at May 4, 1 03:51:44 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1862 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010504/60be9bc3/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Fri May 4 13:15:04 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? References: <001201c0d48b$51bbf8f0$ba749a8d@ajp166> <00b501c0d4a9$9d0cd7c0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> <3AF2E00C.BA2CEF2F@greenbelt.com> Message-ID: <002b01c0d4c6$24653700$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I believe calling the 6809 a 16-bit machine is exaggerating somewhat. It had an 8-bit ALU and an 8-bit data bus, and an 8-bit almost everything else. Even the 6801 had instructions that would concatenate the A and B registers so a single instruction would operate on the pair, and the fact that the 680x series had a 16-bit index register was more of a hindrance than a help as far as performance was concerned. The instruction set was very nice, though. Although the "internal architecture" supported 16-bit operations somewhat, it's a bit of a reach to compare it with, say, the i8088, which, though I hate the segmented effective address computation scheme, is, in fact, a 16-bit architecture, as it has a 16-bit register SET, a 16-bit ALU, and 16-bit instructions that operate on 16-bit operands. The 6502 had advantages over the MOT-style processors primarily BECAUSE of its 8-bit index registers. Because the index registers were a single byte, the state machine that controls the physical address computation doesn't have to decide to skip a cycle when the MS byte of the index is zero, nor does it have to decide what else to do with the upper byte, since there isn't one. Its 8-bit character is what makes it faster than the MOT equivalents. It does 8-bit things VERY fast, so long as they are scoped into table sizes easily handlled with the 8-bit index registers. Any 4 or 8 bit processor can process 16-bit data, given enough time and resources. Some do it more elegantly than others, and I freely admit that the 6809 does it more elegantly. It just doesn't do the 8-bit stuff as fast as the 650x family. The fact is, the 650x family was a smaller chip than the MOT, Intel, or Zilog parts of the same class. That suggests it had fewer transistors, since the number of transistors would increase the chip size. Keep in mind, when considering this contrast, that the 650x's general purpose registers could be viewed to reside in the "zero-page" since the access to that region was faster than to the rest of memory. Having larger registers and more of them, as did the 8080 and Z80 certainly would make the chip larger and the transistor count larger. It has a pipelined data bus, which, in reality, is just double-buffer for the benefit of the instruction decoder, so it can decode the opcode WHILE the opcode's first operand, or the next opcode, is being fetched. While this doesn't speed up an opcode's execution in a test setting, it does speed up a sequential execution as you encounter when running code. If you look at what appears on the 6502's pins as it executes various instructions, you'll see that. (this is documented in MOS Technology's 6500-Series Hardware Manual, so you don't have to dig out the logic analyzer.) Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Chomko" To: Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 10:59 AM Subject: Re: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? > Sipke de Wal wrote: > > > With hindsight one can consider the 6502 to be the only 8-bit RISC CPU > > It had a reduced number of registers compared with the 6800 and this and > > other logic-reduction simplified the design so it could execute code a lot > > more efficiently as compared with the 6800. Also the 256-bytes Zero-page > > could be regarded as an (extended) RISC-like registerset of the CPU. > > > > Many looked at the zero-page and the 8 bit stack pointer as shortcomings. > It was the X and Y index registers both 8 bit, that made the chip interesting. > The X/Y pair made memory-madpped video graphics easier to implement. > > > > > > I remember a magazine (BYTE?) describe the 6502 as a true RISC-chip > > but I don't thing the designers had RISC-CISC philosofies in their heads > > while working it out. > > > > RISC per se didn't come out until the 80s. > > > > > Only 6809 bas a "better" chip but that should have been a true 16-bit design > > It came way to late to make a large impact. Only the COCO used it in a > > homecomputer. > > > > The 6809 was fine as a 8 bit chip with a 16 bit internal architecture, and many > > home computers used the 6809 CPU not just the CoCo. > > SWPTC made one. The operating system OS/9 was built around that chip. > Viirtually every manufacturer of the SS-50 bus had a 6809-based system, and > that > would be around a half dozen. > > The CoCo may be the most well known but not the only. > > Eric > > > > > > Sipke de Wal > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > http://xgistor.ath.cx > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: ajp166 > > To: > > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 1:03 PM > > Subject: Re: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? > > > > > From: Brian Chase > > > > > > >Does anyone know how many transistors made up the 6502? These days with > > > >Intel's boasting of the number of transistors their latest processors > > > use, > > > >it'd be interesting to know what we used to get by using. What, it > > > can't > > > >have been more than a few thousand, right? > > > > > > > > > Memory says it was one of the lower transistor count cpus, very efficient > > > design. > > > > > > >And then it'd be rather fun to implement your very own 6502 using 74* > > > >series logic chips. > > > > > > > > > I'd bet it would be fairly high chip count. IT would be interesting to > > > see how fast > > > you cound make it go. > > > > > > Allison > > > > > > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 4 13:14:53 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: DEC finds and wants In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at May 4, 1 06:54:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 403 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010504/77c8df94/attachment.ksh From jott at hamming.ee.nd.edu Fri May 4 13:38:28 2001 From: jott at hamming.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: Allison: 2910c version of z80 In-Reply-To: <001301c0d48b$521c4160$ba749a8d@ajp166>; from ajp166@bellatlantic.net on Fri, May 04, 2001 at 07:13:46AM -0400 References: <001301c0d48b$521c4160$ba749a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <20010504133828.C6001@mastif> Hello - I don't have your email address. So, do you still have the schematics of your 2901C version of the z80? Have you done any stack based cpu's with bit slice chips? (e.g. something to run native forth code on ) john jott@hamming.ee.nd.edu On Fri, May 04, 2001 at 07:13:46AM -0400, ajp166 wrote: > From: jpero@sympatico.ca > > From: Brian Chase > > > > And then it'd be rather fun to implement your very own 6502 using 74* > > series logic chips. > > >Possible, but length of traces to wire all those together will keep > >it to KHz range and needs few large boards that needs so much power > >that hottest athlon cpu is low power by comparsion. > > > It would eat power but it would not be that slow. The mos logic of > the time was quite slow compared to the ttl of the time. > > I did do a 2901C version of z80 and it was much faster than the MOS > version, not due to the 2901s as they were logic savers but the > acutal speed bottleneck as well. > > I have seen photos of apple IIe prototype laid out on early > pre-production logic board, one of that 40 pin chipset socket is > hooked to a equally same size board filled to the 4 edges with > tightly packed TTLs and few large ICs, I think it was shown in Byte > as well as few other publicatons. Large board full of chips vs. 40 > pin IC, same thing...Amazing! > > > That was replaced by a 2000 or so gate array so thats were it > all went. Also the proto was built of all SSI TTL making it less dense. > > I did some work like that in the early 80s. Logic was faster than > you think. It's true to get to the sub 100ns range for serious > cpus you have to get the interconnect problem out of the way. > However for a fairly fast machine (4-10mhz clocks) there are > many examples that are mostly ttl. For starters the PDP-8E > ca. 1971ish executes instructions in 1.4uS for the base modes > and that was SSI ttl on low density boards. FYI it was limited > by the core cycle time not the TTL, I ran one at nearly twice > speed easily with semicon memory. > > Allison > -- ************************************************************************ * * * * John Ott * Email: jott@hamming.ee.nd.edu * * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * Fax: (219) 631-9924 * * * * ************************************************************************ From ss at allegro.com Fri May 4 13:50:29 2001 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: eBay alert: TI 980B mini and a HUGE IBM drive In-Reply-To: <3AF229A7.E2F2BE1D@home.com> Message-ID: <3AF29785.29560.87BC76E@localhost> Re: > on the panel]. The disk drive is a pull from a 3380E IBM drive cabinet > and is by far and away the largest I've ever seen .. probably 130+ > pounds. For weight-per-byte, the winner has to be the dual 8" floppy disk drive for the IBM 5110 / 5120 (possibly used in other IBM computers). It's a bit larger than a 2-drawer file cabinet, and about 100 to 150 pounds... all electronics just for the dual 8" floppy drives! A year or so later, IBM had shrunk the electronics so they and the drives fit into a 14"/14"/14" cube, roughly. Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri May 4 14:02:54 2001 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: 1mb x 1 memory chips for printers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010504190254.21984.qmail@web9505.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Ford wrote: > One of my friends is a SERIOUS chip scavenger (he repairs old video games), > and he has a solder pot etc. to easily pull parts. I may just gather up a > bunch of old motherboards and spend a stinky afternoon in his garage. Hmm... me, too; but I doubt you were talking about me here. I have a Gorf machine I built up out of boards found at a local scrapper (when I was in high school) and parts from two cabinets (proper glass, proper paint job, marquee, etc). _And_, just the other night, I fired up my solder pot to extract some parts from dead x86 motherboards. -ethan ===== Visit "The Seventh Continent" http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From knightstalkerbob at netscape.net Fri May 4 14:09:06 2001 From: knightstalkerbob at netscape.net (Bob Mason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? References: Message-ID: <12A3ABE3.39298B91.CF1A260E@netscape.net> Is anyone else having a problem with mails coming from ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk? They come out blank on my end. Bob Mason -- Bob Mason 2x Amiga 500's, GVP A530 (40mhz 68030/68882, 8meg Fast, SCSI), 1.3/3.1, 2meg Chip, full ECS chipset, EZ135, 1084S, big harddrives, 2.2xCD Gateway Performance 500 Piece 'o Crap, 'ME, 128meg, 20Gig, flatbed. __________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri May 4 14:19:25 2001 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: Latest find: Victor Comptometer, model 12E.523.157.C need power cord In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010504191925.30660.qmail@web9502.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > On Thu, 3 May 2001 20:25:42 -0700 (PDT) Ethan Dicks > > wrote: > > > The power cord is like nothing I've seen - three > > > brass rods, the middle one (earth), fixed, the outer two slightly > > > floating, about 1.25 cm long, 2-3 mm in diameter, spaced at about 1.25 cm > > > on centers, nearly, but not entirely, in line. > The pins sound rather too small in diameter (2-3mm) for the Swiss mains > plugs that I rememebr. The pins on those were perhaps 3-4mm diameter. > > The Comptometer connector does sound a bit like a round-pin mains > connector used on HP (and other) test equipment in the 1960s. Do you have any pictures of these up on the web? > I have no idea where you'd find that sort of connector now, though. So the next question becomes do I a) find a way to manufacture something with insulated clips, or b) remove the plug and add a modern one. I'm obviously shy about permanent modifications, but the brass pins _do_ have set screws to hang onto the wires inside. I could replace them later. -ethan ===== Visit "The Seventh Continent" http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From jss at ou.edu Fri May 4 14:21:31 2001 From: jss at ou.edu (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: eBay alert: TI 980B mini and a HUGE IBM drive In-Reply-To: <3AF229A7.E2F2BE1D@home.com> References: <3AF229A7.E2F2BE1D@home.com> Message-ID: <989004091.3af3013b08238@email.ou.edu> Quoting ip500 : > IBM drive 1235355979 > These were not offered here first No, but I think I remember someone talking about finding the big IBM drives on this list and even posting those same pictures. Or maybe that was another list. Or maybe I should lay off the crack... -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@ou.edu From ip500 at home.com Fri May 4 14:35:35 2001 From: ip500 at home.com (ip500) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: eBay alert: TI 980B mini and a HUGE IBM drive References: <3AF229A7.E2F2BE1D@home.com> <989004091.3af3013b08238@email.ou.edu> Message-ID: <3AF30487.5D6E674C@home.com> Lay of the crack! Powder is much easier on the memory!! And that was here, about a month ago. I've got one hanging over my desk on BIG chains secured to eyebolts into the main joists of the floor above. Good conversation piece! Craig URL for the pix is: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1235355979 "Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote: > > Quoting ip500 : > > IBM drive 1235355979 > > These were not offered here first > > No, but I think I remember someone talking about finding the big IBM > drives on this list and even posting those same pictures. Or maybe > that was another list. Or maybe I should lay off the crack... > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@ou.edu From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri May 4 15:36:58 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? In-Reply-To: <12A3ABE3.39298B91.CF1A260E@netscape.net> References: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010504133558.01a4d288@208.226.86.10> Yes. That is Tony (Hi Tony!) and for some reason they come out in Opera 5.x as just an attachment that is unopenable (strange but his are the only ones). --Chuck At 03:09 PM 5/4/2001 -0400, you wrote: >Is anyone else having a problem with mails coming from >ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk? They come out blank on my end. >Bob Mason From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Fri May 4 16:49:28 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: eBay alert: TI 980B mini and a HUGE IBM drive References: <3AF229A7.E2F2BE1D@home.com> Message-ID: <3AF323E8.97AB34AE@dragonsweb.org> ip500 wrote: > > Trying to follow the suggested format for alerting the list to an > "unusual" item on eBay. Just listed a very nice TI 980B ..Lots of lights > and switches [no blikenlights however .. it does power up but no action > on the panel]. The disk drive is a pull from a 3380E IBM drive cabinet > and is by far and away the largest I've ever seen .. probably 130+ > pounds. > For the HTML impaired among us, item numbers are: > TI 980B 1235346938 > IBM drive 1235355979 > These were not offered here first ... What is the "going" price for > either?????? eBay, for all it's supposed faults still seems to be the > venue of choice for odd and/or unique items. > Craig To ebay or not to ebay is not the question. You're obviously in this to maximize return on an investment, or you would have offered these items here, first, where you're more likely to find people who can put them to use, who may actually be looking for these items, as opposed to any generic nostalgic computer artifact to hang from a rafter. Nothing wrong with making money, whether it's to support a cocaine habit, or whatever. You're just not likely to get a lot of sympathy or support when you ask for free appraisals and such. Good luck, jbdigriz From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 4 15:56:12 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010504133558.01a4d288@208.226.86.10> from "Chuck McManis" at May 04, 2001 01:36:58 PM Message-ID: <200105042056.NAA01957@shell1.aracnet.com> > At 03:09 PM 5/4/2001 -0400, you wrote: > >Is anyone else having a problem with mails coming from > >ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk? They come out blank on my end. > >Bob Mason > > Yes. That is Tony (Hi Tony!) and for some reason they come out in Opera 5.x > as just an attachment that is unopenable (strange but his are the only ones). > --Chuck Strange, they're just fine in 'elm'. Last I checked they were also fine under Eudora 4.0.2/Mac. Zane From donm at cts.com Fri May 4 16:06:36 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: 1mb x 1 memory chips for printers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 4 May 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > Ouch - that's more like the pricing for 1986 for these. Also note that according to their purchasing agreement there is a $25 handling charge on purchases less than $250! - don > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Mike Ford > > Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 11:53 PM > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: RE: 1mb x 1 memory chips for printers > > > > > > >So am I to assume (since I haven't dealt with loose DRAM in > > years) that the > > >HY51C4256S-C printed on the 20 pin DIP chips are 4x256, and if so anyone > > >have a source? I need at least 16 to pop this Laserjet III up to > > the full 4 > > >mb. I don't imagine they are the same as the old 256k DRAMs in the older > > >PC,XT and some AT class machines... > > > > Dogpile search on 51c4256* yields 3 maybes, USbid.com coughs up the > > following and apage more after I register. > > > > 44256-SOJ(HM514256AJP-8;T... --- HIT --- > > 1000 US > > $ 1.2966 Fixed Price Buy Now > > 44256-SOJ(HM514256AJP8) --- HIT 89 2380 US > > $ 2.1611 Fixed Price Buy Now > > MSM514256A80ZSB --- OKI --- 68 US $ 8.2583 > > Fixed Price Buy Now > > > > Can't say that I am happy even at a buck each, but I have barely > > started to > > look. > > > > Anybody have a part number for the 1x 1 MB parts, or a guess if the above > > parts look correct? (yeah I know, look in one of your old data books....). > > Do I want dip or is that what soj means? > > > > > > From donm at cts.com Fri May 4 16:11:20 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: HP mouse and DEC coiled cable and wanted items to trade or buy. In-Reply-To: <20010504070539.HKKH25498.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 May 2001 jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > Here's the two items I'm peddling off to trade for one or two ADB > M-M cables. Shipping is free because these two items is rather > light. > > If any of you want either one or both let me know. > > HP mouse, 46060A. Condition: light scuff marks, bit bent to one of > two latches but *no* damage on that jack end, still can latch. Only > two items, missing locking ring and has non-original HP mouse > ball. Does roll freely when moved around viewed through plexglas. I > know the spring loaded is pushing ball against two rollers. Do not > have HP machine to test this with. ASIS, either try or for parts to > fix other HP mouse. > > Digital Equipment Corporation, coiled cable w/ jacks > part number: 17-02643-03, assembled in USA on that > sticker. Still heat-sealed bag is well-handled but the cable itself > is still new and undamaged. Also inside that still-sealed bag is > piece of folded paper, appears to be diagram of a back of a keyboard > w/ that cable. Hard to tell because I'm viewing that shadow from > paper wrong side.. > > Also I have Compaq replacement motherboard for LTE 386s/20 still > unopened in it's packaging like new and worn original box it came in. > The bios version is -003 means it does support dual 8MB > modules. This is rare few notebooks to have cache the > system performance tests proves this. Yes, I looked through that > anti-static package on that bios version with strong flashlight and > lope and looked at quick reference. > > By the way, one used 8MB card for that LTE 386s/20, perfect > match to go with this replacement LTE 386s/20 motherboard, it works > in my former LTE 386s/20 bios -002 but according to quick ref says > bios -003 is required to handle two 8MB modules. This card also work > in all LTE Lite series but not LTE Lite4 series. > > Wanted: > > For this compaq parts or to buy, I'm looking for Mac logic board or > stripped of down of its drives mac w/ motherboard and vram still in > it. Interest of items I'm looking for: LC475, Quadra 605. > In these two models, If that pair of vram sticks is missing it won't > work and I do not have two vram sticks on hand. You might want to look around www.junkyardjeff.com who has a pretty good selection of Mac pieces for sale. - don > Or, HPV 1MB video card PDS for 7100 and 8100. > > Or, LC PDS ethernet daughterboard for LC, II, III and III+, performa > 465/466. TP (jack type) but I could accept coax interface (BNC > type). > > Looking to buy for my use: > If you have crashed fireball ST scsi 3.2GB but good circuit board, I > need it, I pay both shipping and small cost for it. I suggest ditch > the HD pack, just that circuit board to save on shipping and for data > security if that pack turned out good. Cannot be 1.6GB, 2.1GB, > 4.8GB or 6.4GB due to programming on that circuit board is not same > as 3.2GB. Only requirement these defectives should spin up and whack > noisily it's heads silly, signifying disc pack is gone. The bad > logic boards makes HD totally dead, no spin, no seeks. That is, you > can save those if you find good boards for these like I'm doing to > mine. Warrenty period on these fireball ST series is over or about > running out. > > Cheers, > > Wizard > From ken at seefried.com Fri May 4 16:14:53 2001 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: KXT11 Variants? Message-ID: <20010504211453.11530.qmail@mail.seefried.com> Can anyone tell me what the differences are between a KXT11-A, -AA, -AB * -CA? I know -A? is dual wide, and -C? is quad wide, but other than that? BTW...how would one get Micropower Pascal for one of these? Ken Seefried, CISSP From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri May 4 16:25:00 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? In-Reply-To: <12A3ABE3.39298B91.CF1A260E@netscape.net> References: <12A3ABE3.39298B91.CF1A260E@netscape.net> Message-ID: >Is anyone else having a problem with mails coming from >ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk? They come out blank on my end. > >Bob Mason > They look fine under Eudora 5.0 on the Mac. I've never had a problem reading Tony's emails. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From fernande at internet1.net Fri May 4 16:42:02 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: eBay alert: TI 980B mini and a HUGE IBM drive References: <3AF229A7.E2F2BE1D@home.com> <3AF323E8.97AB34AE@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <3AF3222A.ADA9E03D@internet1.net> If I am looking for more than an oddball part, like a computer, or a peripheral.... Ebay is the FIRST place I look. If I am looking for a particular bracket, for my BA23 case, I'll look here first. If I am looking for guidance with a bid price, why not ask here?? People here know what the going rate is for stuff, stuff that I am not as familiar with. I would rather see stuff on Ebay, than hear of it being given to Goodwill, unless it's my Goodwill :-) All to often I see nice stuff trashed my customers, or parts lost by workers. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA "James B. DiGriz" wrote: > To ebay or not to ebay is not the question. You're obviously in this to > maximize return on an investment, or you would have offered these items > here, first, where you're more likely to find people who can put them to > use, who may actually be looking for these items, as opposed to any > generic nostalgic computer artifact to hang from a rafter. Nothing wrong > with making money, whether it's to support a cocaine habit, or whatever. > You're just not likely to get a lot of sympathy or support when you ask > for free appraisals and such. > > Good luck, > jbdigriz From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri May 4 17:00:23 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? In-Reply-To: <200105042056.NAA01957@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at "May 4, 1 01:56:12 pm" Message-ID: <200105042200.PAA10796@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Strange, they're just fine in 'elm'. Last I checked they were also fine > under Eudora 4.0.2/Mac. Ah, another Elm user. :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Proponents of other opinions will be merrily beaten to a bloody pulp. ------ From fmc at reanimators.org Fri May 4 16:35:26 2001 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: Tony's mail (was Re: How many transistors in the 6502 processor?) In-Reply-To: knightstalkerbob@netscape.net's message of "Fri, 04 May 2001 15:09:06 -0400" References: <12A3ABE3.39298B91.CF1A260E@netscape.net> Message-ID: <200105042135.f44LZRW46792@daemonweed.reanimators.org> knightstalkerbob@netscape.net (Bob Mason) wrote: > Is anyone else having a problem with mails coming from > ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk? They come out blank on my end. No. But Tony's mailer is inserting a header Content-Type: text ...which isn't valid according the the MIME spec, but then there isn't a MIME-Version header either so it your mailer shouldn't be trying to interpret it as a MIME content-type. -Frank McConnell From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri May 4 17:10:44 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? In-Reply-To: <3AF2E00C.BA2CEF2F@greenbelt.com> from Eric Chomko at "May 4, 1 12:59:56 pm" Message-ID: <200105042210.PAA09568@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Many looked at the zero-page and the 8 bit stack pointer as shortcomings. > It was the X and Y index registers both 8 bit, that made the chip interesting. > The X/Y pair made memory-madpped video graphics easier to implement. Zero page is not a shortcoming, but instead one of the 6502's better features. It basically works out to giving you optimized access to a segment of RAM -- almost like 256 extra registers. Other chips have used a similar scheme, including the TMS 9900 and friends (like the 9995, which even keeps this RAM onboard for really high speed access). The stack is truly a bummer, but there's software ways around that. FWIW, the later 65CE02 deals with both these issues. You can "move" zero page anywhere in memory you want on the fly (so that you can pick a memory page and optimize access to it), and the stack pointer is now 16-bit. The 65CE02's most well-known usage was in its guise as the CSG 4510 in the mythical Commodore 65 (see http://www.retrobits.com/ckb/secret/65.html ). -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- The world only beats a path to your door when you're in the bathroom. ------ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri May 4 17:45:28 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: Allison: 2910c version of z80 Message-ID: <005c01c0d4ec$2bcbf0d0$ba749a8d@ajp166> From: John Ott >I don't have your email address. So, do you still have the schematics >of your 2901C version of the z80? Have you done any stack based cpu's >with bit slice chips? (e.g. something to run native forth code on ) > >john I do still have them. No, I wont publish the notebook that contains the collected wisdom. I did this a lot of years ago. My $.02 2901 was an ok device but slow and turned out to the the speed limiter. Also the microcode for was a pain! Never did a stack cpu though the PDP-11 does that very well as is. Allison From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 4 17:48:59 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:02 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? In-Reply-To: Re: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? (healyzh@aracnet.com) References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010504133558.01a4d288@208.226.86.10> <200105042056.NAA01957@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <15091.12763.895694.497036@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 4, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > >Is anyone else having a problem with mails coming from > > >ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk? They come out blank on my end. > > >Bob Mason > > > > Yes. That is Tony (Hi Tony!) and for some reason they come out in Opera 5.x > > as just an attachment that is unopenable (strange but his are the only ones). > > --Chuck > > Strange, they're just fine in 'elm'. Last I checked they were also fine > under Eudora 4.0.2/Mac. Fine in VM under xemacs here.. -Dave McGuire From sipke at wxs.nl Fri May 4 17:53:20 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? References: <001201c0d48b$51bbf8f0$ba749a8d@ajp166> <00b501c0d4a9$9d0cd7c0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> <3AF2E00C.BA2CEF2F@greenbelt.com> <002b01c0d4c6$24653700$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <00df01c0d4ed$04a47bc0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> To state my point more clearly........ I did not say it was a 16-bit, I said it should have been a 16-bitter given the fact that all the major players at the time wore working on or, already had a 16-bit design in the cooker. Even Motorola was working on the 68000 already. The 6809 would have replaced the 6502 and the 6800 in a lot of computers if it would have been aviable sooner! Sipke de Wal ---------------------------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Erlacher To: Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 8:15 PM Subject: Re: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? > I believe calling the 6809 a 16-bit machine is exaggerating somewhat. It had an > 8-bit ALU and an 8-bit data bus, and an 8-bit almost everything else. Even the > 6801 had instructions that would concatenate the A and B registers so a single > instruction would operate on the pair, and the fact that the 680x series had a > 16-bit index register was more of a hindrance than a help as far as performance > was concerned. The instruction set was very nice, though. Although the > "internal architecture" supported 16-bit operations somewhat, it's a bit of a > reach to compare it with, say, the i8088, which, though I hate the segmented > effective address computation scheme, is, in fact, a 16-bit architecture, as it > has a 16-bit register SET, a 16-bit ALU, and 16-bit instructions that operate on > 16-bit operands. > > The 6502 had advantages over the MOT-style processors primarily BECAUSE of its > 8-bit index registers. Because the index registers were a single byte, the > state machine that controls the physical address computation doesn't have to > decide to skip a cycle when the MS byte of the index is zero, nor does it have > to decide what else to do with the upper byte, since there isn't one. Its 8-bit > character is what makes it faster than the MOT equivalents. It does 8-bit > things VERY fast, so long as they are scoped into table sizes easily handlled > with the 8-bit index registers. Any 4 or 8 bit processor can process 16-bit > data, given enough time and resources. Some do it more elegantly than others, > and I freely admit that the 6809 does it more elegantly. It just doesn't do the > 8-bit stuff as fast as the 650x family. > > The fact is, the 650x family was a smaller chip than the MOT, Intel, or Zilog > parts of the same class. That suggests it had fewer transistors, since the > number of transistors would increase the chip size. Keep in mind, when > considering this contrast, that the 650x's general purpose registers could be > viewed to reside in the "zero-page" since the access to that region was faster > than to the rest of memory. Having larger registers and more of them, as did > the 8080 and Z80 certainly would make the chip larger and the transistor count > larger. > > It has a pipelined data bus, which, in reality, is just double-buffer for the > benefit of the instruction decoder, so it can decode the opcode WHILE the > opcode's first operand, or the next opcode, is being fetched. While this > doesn't speed up an opcode's execution in a test setting, it does speed up a > sequential execution as you encounter when running code. If you look at what > appears on the 6502's pins as it executes various instructions, you'll see that. > (this is documented in MOS Technology's 6500-Series Hardware Manual, so you > don't have to dig out the logic analyzer.) > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Eric Chomko" > To: > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 10:59 AM > Subject: Re: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? > > > > Sipke de Wal wrote: > > > > > With hindsight one can consider the 6502 to be the only 8-bit RISC CPU > > > It had a reduced number of registers compared with the 6800 and this and > > > other logic-reduction simplified the design so it could execute code a lot > > > more efficiently as compared with the 6800. Also the 256-bytes Zero-page > > > could be regarded as an (extended) RISC-like registerset of the CPU. > > > > > > > Many looked at the zero-page and the 8 bit stack pointer as shortcomings. > > It was the X and Y index registers both 8 bit, that made the chip interesting. > > The X/Y pair made memory-madpped video graphics easier to implement. > > > > > > > > > > I remember a magazine (BYTE?) describe the 6502 as a true RISC-chip > > > but I don't thing the designers had RISC-CISC philosofies in their heads > > > while working it out. > > > > > > > RISC per se didn't come out until the 80s. > > > > > > > > Only 6809 bas a "better" chip but that should have been a true 16-bit design > > > It came way to late to make a large impact. Only the COCO used it in a > > > homecomputer. > > > > > > > The 6809 was fine as a 8 bit chip with a 16 bit internal architecture, and > many > > > > home computers used the 6809 CPU not just the CoCo. > > > > SWPTC made one. The operating system OS/9 was built around that chip. > > Viirtually every manufacturer of the SS-50 bus had a 6809-based system, and > > that > > would be around a half dozen. > > > > The CoCo may be the most well known but not the only. > > > > Eric > > > > > > > > > > Sipke de Wal > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > http://xgistor.ath.cx > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: ajp166 > > > To: > > > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 1:03 PM > > > Subject: Re: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? > > > > > > > From: Brian Chase > > > > > > > > >Does anyone know how many transistors made up the 6502? These days with > > > > >Intel's boasting of the number of transistors their latest processors > > > > use, > > > > >it'd be interesting to know what we used to get by using. What, it > > > > can't > > > > >have been more than a few thousand, right? > > > > > > > > > > > > Memory says it was one of the lower transistor count cpus, very efficient > > > > design. > > > > > > > > >And then it'd be rather fun to implement your very own 6502 using 74* > > > > >series logic chips. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd bet it would be fairly high chip count. IT would be interesting to > > > > see how fast > > > > you cound make it go. > > > > > > > > Allison > > > > > > > > > > > > > From vaxman at qwest.net Fri May 4 17:54:47 2001 From: vaxman at qwest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: eBay alert: TI 980B mini and a HUGE IBM drive In-Reply-To: <3AF229A7.E2F2BE1D@home.com> Message-ID: ME ME ME ME ME ME ME I want it so no one else bid okay???!??!??!?!!! Thanks, clint On Fri, 4 May 2001, ip500 wrote: > Trying to follow the suggested format for alerting the list to an > "unusual" item on eBay. Just listed a very nice TI 980B ..Lots of lights > and switches [no blikenlights however .. it does power up but no action > on the panel]. The disk drive is a pull from a 3380E IBM drive cabinet > and is by far and away the largest I've ever seen .. probably 130+ > pounds. > For the HTML impaired among us, item numbers are: > TI 980B 1235346938 > IBM drive 1235355979 > These were not offered here first ... What is the "going" price for > either?????? eBay, for all it's supposed faults still seems to be the > venue of choice for odd and/or unique items. > Craig > > From vaxman at qwest.net Fri May 4 17:55:49 2001 From: vaxman at qwest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: Cray J90 at Boeing Long Beach Cal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In terms I understand, what's a J90, and what's it worth? I know another cray sold on EBay for ~35K, but I don't recall the model number... clint On Thu, 3 May 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > Cray J90 at Boeing Long Beach Cal May 15 auction (sealed bid) > > > > From vaxman at qwest.net Fri May 4 18:11:10 2001 From: vaxman at qwest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: eBay alert: TI 980B mini and a HUGE IBM drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just kidding :) But seriously, how bout an EBay posting policy... If someone calls dibs, nobody else on the list bids against them... clint PS Being a peckerhead as usual :)- On Fri, 4 May 2001, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: > > ME ME ME ME ME ME ME > > I want it so no one else bid okay???!??!??!?!!! > > Thanks, > clint > > On Fri, 4 May 2001, ip500 wrote: > > > Trying to follow the suggested format for alerting the list to an > > "unusual" item on eBay. Just listed a very nice TI 980B ..Lots of lights > > and switches [no blikenlights however .. it does power up but no action > > on the panel]. The disk drive is a pull from a 3380E IBM drive cabinet > > and is by far and away the largest I've ever seen .. probably 130+ > > pounds. > > For the HTML impaired among us, item numbers are: > > TI 980B 1235346938 > > IBM drive 1235355979 > > These were not offered here first ... What is the "going" price for > > either?????? eBay, for all it's supposed faults still seems to be the > > venue of choice for odd and/or unique items. > > Craig > > > > > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 4 18:15:48 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: Cray J90 at Boeing Long Beach Cal In-Reply-To: Re: Cray J90 at Boeing Long Beach Cal (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) References: Message-ID: <15091.14372.425110.699584@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 4, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: > In terms I understand, what's a J90, and what's it worth? A used, operational J90 is worth anywhere from ~$8K-35K depending on configuration. Here's some quick info: Type: PVP (parallel vector processor) CPUs: 4 min, 32 max CPU architecture: YMP family binary compatible Memory: 4GB max Disk: unbelievably huge quantities possible Performance: 200MFLOPS sustained per CPU Word width: 64 bits FP capabilities: 64 bits single-precision, goes up from there Vector element depth: 64 elements Cooling: air Power: 220V split-phase, about 3-4KW depending on config OS: Unicos (SystemV variant) Languages: C, C++, Fortran77, Fortran90, others I have a relatively large J90 here. Pics of it can be seen at http://www.neurotica.com/cray/mine. I absolutely love this machine. It is, for lack of better descriptive terms, UNCOMFORTABLY fast when crunching numbers. -Dave McGuire From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri May 4 18:22:02 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? Message-ID: <006d01c0d4f2$79cdabb0$ba749a8d@ajp166> From: Cameron Kaiser >The stack is truly a bummer, but there's software ways around that. As a return address stack it was adaquate. I like to pass parameters on the stack with 8080/z80 and even PDP-11 and the 6502 stack is not up to that. >FWIW, the later 65CE02 deals with both these issues. You can "move" zero page >anywhere in memory you want on the fly (so that you can pick a memory page >and optimize access to it), and the stack pointer is now 16-bit. The 65CE02's >most well-known usage was in its guise as the CSG 4510 in the mythical >Commodore 65 (see Yes but can you push parameters onto the stack prior to the call? Allison From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri May 4 18:48:25 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? In-Reply-To: <006d01c0d4f2$79cdabb0$ba749a8d@ajp166> from ajp166 at "May 4, 1 07:22:02 pm" Message-ID: <200105042348.QAA08786@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > >FWIW, the later 65CE02 deals with both these issues. You can "move" zero > page > >anywhere in memory you want on the fly (so that you can pick a memory > page > >and optimize access to it), and the stack pointer is now 16-bit. The > 65CE02's > >most well-known usage was in its guise as the CSG 4510 in the mythical > >Commodore 65 (see > > > Yes but can you push parameters onto the stack prior to the call? Not without some trickery. You'd have to pull two bytes (the return address), pull the parameters, and then push the return address back on. Works but kludgy. No improvement here over the vanilla 6502. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Beware the Lollipop of Mediocrity: lick it once, and you suck forever! ----- From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri May 4 18:44:31 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: eBay alert: TI 980B mini and a HUGE IBM drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Actually the regular posters on COMP.SYS.PS2 already have a similar understanding. If there's something someone is truly interested in and wishes to bid for, they post a notice to the group so that nobody on the group snipes them. Jeff >Just kidding :) > >But seriously, how bout an EBay posting policy... > >If someone calls dibs, nobody else on the list bids >against them... > >clint > >PS Being a peckerhead as usual :)- -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Fri May 4 19:53:00 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: eBay alert: TI 980B mini and a HUGE IBM drive References: <3AF229A7.E2F2BE1D@home.com> <3AF323E8.97AB34AE@dragonsweb.org> <3AF3222A.ADA9E03D@internet1.net> Message-ID: <3AF34EEB.E6FC17B8@dragonsweb.org> Chad Fernandez wrote: > > If I am looking for more than an oddball part, like a computer, or a > peripheral.... Ebay is the FIRST place I look. If I am looking for a > particular bracket, for my BA23 case, I'll look here first. If I am > looking for guidance with a bid price, why not ask here?? People here > know what the going rate is for stuff, stuff that I am not as familiar > with. Ok. I give up. ip500 wants my honest opinion? Since I've never seen a 980 on ebay in several yearws of watching, it's worth exactly $9.99 at the moment, or what ever the current high bid is. An industrial or lab equipment supplier might ask several thousand for it, if they had it, but they'd only get that much from a corporate purchaser with a revenue stream being held up by a broken machine, in an extreme emergency. That is, somebody they had by the short hairs who was spending someone else's money. They sure wouldn't pay that much if you just walked in cold trying to sell it, because it's really an obsolete piece of junk that will take up valuable storage space, to them. There you have it: $9.99 Send me your address, Craig, and I'll bill you my usual $50 single-item appraisal fee. I'll give you a 20% list member discount on an assessment of the drive's value, if you want that, too. . > > I would rather see stuff on Ebay, than hear of it being given to > Goodwill, unless it's my Goodwill :-) All to often I see nice stuff > trashed my customers, or parts lost by workers. > Did I say anything to the contrary? We were talking about a list member, however. Regards, jbdigriz From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri May 4 19:00:28 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: eBay alert: TI 980B mini and a HUGE IBM drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010504165908.01aad5c8@208.226.86.10> Generally I try not to snipe people whom I know are readers of this list, however lurkers get no such help :-) Calling 'dibs' however seems akin to a modern day version of the prisoner's dilemma. --Chuck At 07:44 PM 5/4/2001 -0400, you wrote: > Actually the regular posters on COMP.SYS.PS2 already have a > similar understanding. If there's something someone is truly interested > in and wishes to bid for, they post a notice to the group so that nobody > on the group snipes them. > > Jeff > >>Just kidding :) >> >>But seriously, how bout an EBay posting policy... >> >>If someone calls dibs, nobody else on the list bids >>against them... >> >>clint >> >>PS Being a peckerhead as usual :)- >-- > Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri May 4 19:16:14 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: 1mb x 1 memory chips for printers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010504171551.038d82e0@mail.zipcon.net> I think I have a bunch of 1Mx1 drams here :) At 02:06 PM 5/4/01 -0700, you wrote: >On Fri, 4 May 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > > > Ouch - that's more like the pricing for 1986 for these. > >Also note that according to their purchasing agreement there is a $25 >handling charge on purchases less than $250! > > - don > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Mike Ford > > > Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 11:53 PM > > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > Subject: RE: 1mb x 1 memory chips for printers > > > > > > > > > >So am I to assume (since I haven't dealt with loose DRAM in > > > years) that the > > > >HY51C4256S-C printed on the 20 pin DIP chips are 4x256, and if so anyone > > > >have a source? I need at least 16 to pop this Laserjet III up to > > > the full 4 > > > >mb. I don't imagine they are the same as the old 256k DRAMs in the older > > > >PC,XT and some AT class machines... > > > > > > Dogpile search on 51c4256* yields 3 maybes, USbid.com coughs up the > > > following and apage more after I register. > > > > > > 44256-SOJ(HM514256AJP-8;T... --- HIT --- > > > 1000 US > > > $ 1.2966 Fixed Price Buy Now > > > 44256-SOJ(HM514256AJP8) --- HIT 89 2380 US > > > $ 2.1611 Fixed Price Buy Now > > > MSM514256A80ZSB --- OKI --- 68 US $ 8.2583 > > > Fixed Price Buy Now > > > > > > Can't say that I am happy even at a buck each, but I have barely > > > started to > > > look. > > > > > > Anybody have a part number for the 1x 1 MB parts, or a guess if the above > > > parts look correct? (yeah I know, look in one of your old data > books....). > > > Do I want dip or is that what soj means? > > > > > > > > > > From optimus at canit.se Fri May 4 19:22:41 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? In-Reply-To: <00b501c0d4a9$9d0cd7c0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <696.525T2050T825915optimus@canit.se> Sipke de Wal skrev: >Only 6809 bas a "better" chip but that should have been a true 16-bit design >It came way to late to make a large impact. Only the COCO used it in a >homecomputer. People always seem to forget the poor Dragon. Of course, it was essentially a CoCo, or so they tell me. When was the 6809 released? Wasn't that about the same time as the 68000? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Ecco a voi la sigla di Lupin III in francese... ma... aspettate... qualcosa non quadra...cos'e' questa roba! Holly e Benji? ahahah... povero cantante... gli hanno messo sotto la base sbagliata!!! Tacchan undrar varf?r Captain Tsubasa p? franska har samma ackompanjemang som Lupin III p? italienska From optimus at canit.se Fri May 4 20:02:43 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: 1mb x 1 memory chips for printers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <855.525T2150T1225627optimus@canit.se> Russ Blakeman skrev: >Sounds like what he needs is the IR desolderer I used when I worked last >Xmas for Jabil Circuits in Louisville - it looks like an oversized >microscope and you aim the light source on the part you want to remove and >watch the TV display (magnified view) for when the solder drops out from >becoming soft. Pull the part and set the board to the side. Strange thing is >that it affects the solder, not the chip. I don't think he wants to spend >around $10k for a desoldering tool that would mostly just impress people. A friend of mine uses a hot air gun of some kind. Not as elegant as the IR solution, I suppose, but much cheaper (though much more expensive than your bog-standard soldering iron). At least he seems content with it. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. The first rule of intelligent tinkering is to save all the parts. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri May 4 20:11:54 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: eBay alert: TI 980B mini and a HUGE IBM drive In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010504165908.01aad5c8@208.226.86.10> References: Message-ID: >Generally I try not to snipe people whom I know are readers of this list, >however lurkers get no such help :-) >Calling 'dibs' however seems akin to a modern day version of the prisoner's >dilemma. Half the time I don't even look at the other bidders, or if sniping, may have placed my bid days ago. OTOH I don't intentionally step on anybodies bid, ie several items, I bid where there are no bids. STuff I really want though, I bid on, and if my friend keeps bidding, well why the heck are they? Regardless its easier to settle later, after I win the bid. From edick at idcomm.com Fri May 4 20:30:35 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? References: <001201c0d48b$51bbf8f0$ba749a8d@ajp166> <00b501c0d4a9$9d0cd7c0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> <3AF2E00C.BA2CEF2F@greenbelt.com> <002b01c0d4c6$24653700$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <00df01c0d4ed$04a47bc0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <002301c0d502$fc172500$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I'm not sure I follow what you've said. The 650x and 6800 preceded the 6809 by quite some time. Do you mean the 6809 could have been put in place of the 68000? Stroke for stroke, the 6502 would have outperformed the 6809 in the applications where the 6502 performed very well. I doubt it would have looked like a rehashed 6800 however. The 6502 pipeline and byte ordering gave it a significant advantage over the MOT parts. However, I saw some things done with the 6809 that might have performed better than on a 6502. One thing, however, that gave the 65C02 of the mid-'80's an advantage, was that it was available in much faster versions than the 6809. Moreover, it was easy to prove that, since Rockwell made a 65C102 that used the same E and Q clock scheme that the 6809 used. A little rewiring on an adapter mezzanine, and you could run it in the 6809's environment. I had to do that once to justify the cost of the faster memory. It wasn't close, however, as the faster 65C102 (which was, aside from the clock, just a 65C02) was MUCH faster. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sipke de Wal" To: Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 4:53 PM Subject: Re: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? > To state my point more clearly........ > > I did not say it was a 16-bit, I said it should have been a 16-bitter given the > fact that all the major players at the time wore working on or, already had > a 16-bit design in the cooker. Even Motorola was working on the 68000 > already. > > The 6809 would have replaced the 6502 and the 6800 in a lot of computers > if it would have been aviable sooner! > > Sipke de Wal > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://xgistor.ath.cx > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Richard Erlacher > To: > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 8:15 PM > Subject: Re: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? > > > > I believe calling the 6809 a 16-bit machine is exaggerating somewhat. It had > an > > 8-bit ALU and an 8-bit data bus, and an 8-bit almost everything else. Even > the > > 6801 had instructions that would concatenate the A and B registers so a single > > instruction would operate on the pair, and the fact that the 680x series had a > > 16-bit index register was more of a hindrance than a help as far as > performance > > was concerned. The instruction set was very nice, though. Although the > > "internal architecture" supported 16-bit operations somewhat, it's a bit of a > > reach to compare it with, say, the i8088, which, though I hate the segmented > > effective address computation scheme, is, in fact, a 16-bit architecture, as > it > > has a 16-bit register SET, a 16-bit ALU, and 16-bit instructions that operate > on > > 16-bit operands. > > > > The 6502 had advantages over the MOT-style processors primarily BECAUSE of its > > 8-bit index registers. Because the index registers were a single byte, the > > state machine that controls the physical address computation doesn't have to > > decide to skip a cycle when the MS byte of the index is zero, nor does it have > > to decide what else to do with the upper byte, since there isn't one. Its > 8-bit > > character is what makes it faster than the MOT equivalents. It does 8-bit > > things VERY fast, so long as they are scoped into table sizes easily handlled > > with the 8-bit index registers. Any 4 or 8 bit processor can process 16-bit > > data, given enough time and resources. Some do it more elegantly than others, > > and I freely admit that the 6809 does it more elegantly. It just doesn't do > the > > 8-bit stuff as fast as the 650x family. > > > > The fact is, the 650x family was a smaller chip than the MOT, Intel, or Zilog > > parts of the same class. That suggests it had fewer transistors, since the > > number of transistors would increase the chip size. Keep in mind, when > > considering this contrast, that the 650x's general purpose registers could be > > viewed to reside in the "zero-page" since the access to that region was faster > > than to the rest of memory. Having larger registers and more of them, as did > > the 8080 and Z80 certainly would make the chip larger and the transistor count > > larger. > > > > It has a pipelined data bus, which, in reality, is just double-buffer for the > > benefit of the instruction decoder, so it can decode the opcode WHILE the > > opcode's first operand, or the next opcode, is being fetched. While this > > doesn't speed up an opcode's execution in a test setting, it does speed up a > > sequential execution as you encounter when running code. If you look at what > > appears on the 6502's pins as it executes various instructions, you'll see > that. > > (this is documented in MOS Technology's 6500-Series Hardware Manual, so you > > don't have to dig out the logic analyzer.) > > > > Dick > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Eric Chomko" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 10:59 AM > > Subject: Re: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? > > > > > > > Sipke de Wal wrote: > > > > > > > With hindsight one can consider the 6502 to be the only 8-bit RISC CPU > > > > It had a reduced number of registers compared with the 6800 and this and > > > > other logic-reduction simplified the design so it could execute code a lot > > > > more efficiently as compared with the 6800. Also the 256-bytes Zero-page > > > > could be regarded as an (extended) RISC-like registerset of the CPU. > > > > > > > > > > Many looked at the zero-page and the 8 bit stack pointer as shortcomings. > > > It was the X and Y index registers both 8 bit, that made the chip > interesting. > > > The X/Y pair made memory-madpped video graphics easier to implement. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I remember a magazine (BYTE?) describe the 6502 as a true RISC-chip > > > > but I don't thing the designers had RISC-CISC philosofies in their heads > > > > while working it out. > > > > > > > > > > RISC per se didn't come out until the 80s. > > > > > > > > > > > Only 6809 bas a "better" chip but that should have been a true 16-bit > design > > > > It came way to late to make a large impact. Only the COCO used it in a > > > > homecomputer. > > > > > > > > > > The 6809 was fine as a 8 bit chip with a 16 bit internal architecture, and > > many > > > > > > home computers used the 6809 CPU not just the CoCo. > > > > > > SWPTC made one. The operating system OS/9 was built around that chip. > > > Viirtually every manufacturer of the SS-50 bus had a 6809-based system, and > > > that > > > would be around a half dozen. > > > > > > The CoCo may be the most well known but not the only. > > > > > > Eric > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sipke de Wal > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > http://xgistor.ath.cx > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: ajp166 > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 1:03 PM > > > > Subject: Re: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? > > > > > > > > > From: Brian Chase > > > > > > > > > > >Does anyone know how many transistors made up the 6502? These days > with > > > > > >Intel's boasting of the number of transistors their latest processors > > > > > use, > > > > > >it'd be interesting to know what we used to get by using. What, it > > > > > can't > > > > > >have been more than a few thousand, right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Memory says it was one of the lower transistor count cpus, very > efficient > > > > > design. > > > > > > > > > > >And then it'd be rather fun to implement your very own 6502 using 74* > > > > > >series logic chips. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd bet it would be fairly high chip count. IT would be interesting to > > > > > see how fast > > > > > you cound make it go. > > > > > > > > > > Allison > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri May 4 20:47:03 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? Message-ID: <008001c0d505$5e20e220$ba749a8d@ajp166> From: Iggy Drougge > >People always seem to forget the poor Dragon. Of course, it was essentially a >CoCo, or so they tell me. Both were the Moto app note for the 6809 and friends. >When was the 6809 released? Wasn't that about the same time as the 68000? Before the 68k. The 68k was late and moto needed something in between. Allison From pechter at bg-tc-ppp747.monmouth.com Fri May 4 21:08:47 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp747.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: elm In-Reply-To: <200105042200.PAA10796@stockholm.ptloma.edu> from Cameron Kaiser at "May 4, 2001 03:00:23 pm" Message-ID: <200105050208.f4528m191520@bg-tc-ppp747.monmouth.com> > > Strange, they're just fine in 'elm'. Last I checked they were also fine > > under Eudora 4.0.2/Mac. > > Ah, another Elm user. :-) I'll give up elm when they pry this keyboard from my cold dead hands. I'll give up my persuit of Vaxes and PDP11's first. BTW -- elm's old enough to be covered here. I used it first in 1987-89 when I first implemented it at Concurrent Computer and it became the supported corporate mail program when they purchased Masscomp in '88 and got their first real internet connection at corporate. $elm -v elm Version and Identification Information: Elm 2.4ME+ PL66 (25), of Nov, 1999 Based on Elm 2.4 PL24 - PL25 (C) Copyright 1988-1992 USENET Community Trust Based on Elm 2.0, (C) Copyright 1986,1987 Dave Taylor To print configuration, use option: -vv Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From ip500 at home.com Fri May 4 21:47:16 2001 From: ip500 at home.com (ip500) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: eBay alert: TI 980B mini and a HUGE IBM drive References: <3AF229A7.E2F2BE1D@home.com> <3AF323E8.97AB34AE@dragonsweb.org> <3AF3222A.ADA9E03D@internet1.net> <3AF34EEB.E6FC17B8@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <3AF369B4.71DAB40B@home.com> My point exactly ...who HAS seen a TI 980 sell in the last several years? And as a consequence of its "relative" rarity ..what is one worth. As you point out, at the moment it's worth $9.99. eBay .. while an imperfect marketplace is about as perfect as it gets in the real world. That's why I NEVER set reserves on things I market through an auction format ..it's worth exactly what someone will pay for it .. not what I or anyone elses appraisal of it may be. I'd trade it in a minute for a decent condition HP 2100A. Always had a soft spot for HP stuff. Craig "James B. DiGriz" wrote: > > Chad Fernandez wrote: > > > > If I am looking for more than an oddball part, like a computer, or a > > peripheral.... Ebay is the FIRST place I look. If I am looking for a > > particular bracket, for my BA23 case, I'll look here first. If I am > > looking for guidance with a bid price, why not ask here?? People here > > know what the going rate is for stuff, stuff that I am not as familiar > > with. > > Ok. I give up. ip500 wants my honest opinion? Since I've never seen a > 980 on ebay in several yearws of watching, it's worth exactly $9.99 at > the moment, or what ever the current high bid is. An industrial or lab > equipment supplier might ask several thousand for it, if they had it, > but they'd only get that much from a corporate purchaser with a revenue > stream being held up by a broken machine, in an extreme emergency. That > is, somebody they had by the short hairs who was spending someone else's > money. They sure wouldn't pay that much if you just walked in cold > trying to sell it, because it's really an obsolete piece of junk that > will take up valuable storage space, to them. > > There you have it: $9.99 > > Send me your address, Craig, and I'll bill you my usual $50 single-item > appraisal fee. I'll give you a 20% list member discount on an assessment > of the drive's value, if you want that, too. . > > > > > I would rather see stuff on Ebay, than hear of it being given to > > Goodwill, unless it's my Goodwill :-) All to often I see nice stuff > > trashed my customers, or parts lost by workers. > > > > Did I say anything to the contrary? We were talking about a list member, > however. > > Regards, > jbdigriz From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Fri May 4 22:37:44 2001 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: eBay alert: TI 980B mini and a HUGE IBM drive Message-ID: I dunno, I suppose that it's really Craig's perogative to do what he wishes, its his crud.. Old, yes, potentially interesting, yes, but above all; his. A good example would be a lot of the crud I've pitched because I didn't have the time to screw with it, or stuff I've picked up cheap because I expressed interest in it and the surplus guy said "you want it, then get it outta here today and I'll make it cheap". Besides, in my dealings with him I've never had any reason to dislike him, nor does your average a-hole rack up 667 positive feedbacks! Will J _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Fri May 4 22:40:29 2001 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: While we're on it, what's a Convex worth? Message-ID: What would the approximate value of a Convex Exemplar SPP-1000 be? 2 nodes (16 processors), 2GB of memory, a few gig of disk, most manuals and software, big n cool lookin'.. been offered one but don't know if the asking price ($5K) is worth it... Will J _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From dittman at dittman.net Fri May 4 22:45:02 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: elm In-Reply-To: <200105050208.f4528m191520@bg-tc-ppp747.monmouth.com> from "Bill Pechter" at May 04, 2001 10:08:47 PM Message-ID: <200105050345.f453j2i24684@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > > Strange, they're just fine in 'elm'. Last I checked they were also fine > > > under Eudora 4.0.2/Mac. > > > > Ah, another Elm user. :-) > > I'll give up elm when they pry this keyboard from my cold dead hands. > > I'll give up my persuit of Vaxes and PDP11's first. Count me in as another elm user (and a VAX, PDP-11, and Alpha user). I keep hearing that I need to transition to some other mail reader, but elm does what I want the way I want it done. I also use tin rather than some GUI news reader. I really prefer ANU-News as a news reader, but it got to the point where it wasn't keeping up. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From fernande at internet1.net Sat May 5 00:39:59 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: eBay alert: TI 980B mini and a HUGE IBM drive References: <3AF229A7.E2F2BE1D@home.com> <3AF323E8.97AB34AE@dragonsweb.org> <3AF3222A.ADA9E03D@internet1.net> <3AF34EEB.E6FC17B8@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <3AF3922F.22AD76C2@internet1.net> "James B. DiGriz" wrote: > Ok. I give up. ip500 wants my honest opinion? Since I've never seen a > 980 on ebay in several yearws of watching, it's worth exactly $9.99 at > the moment, or what ever the current high bid is. An industrial or lab > equipment supplier might ask several thousand for it, if they had it, > but they'd only get that much from a corporate purchaser with a revenue > stream being held up by a broken machine, in an extreme emergency. That > is, somebody they had by the short hairs who was spending someone else's > money. They sure wouldn't pay that much if you just walked in cold > trying to sell it, because it's really an obsolete piece of junk that > will take up valuable storage space, to them. > > There you have it: $9.99 I don't agree with any theoretical "worth" rhetoric. What people want to know when they ask, is normal street price, for a given condition and configuration. If I am interested in something on Ebay, but don't really know what I would expect to pay for it, it would be wise to ask before bidding too much money. Why would I "buy it now", or be the winning bid at twice it's normal value? If I pay $100 for a $50 item does that mean I magically doubled the value of all like items? No! I paid double, and the seller made out like a bandit! What make the item a $50 item is that the said item is sold for $50 quite often, when available. I say, when available, since many of the items concerning this list, aren't produced in regular production anymore, in many cases. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From sipke at wxs.nl Sat May 5 02:15:53 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? References: <696.525T2050T825915optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <011b01c0d533$39c90e60$030101ac@boll.casema.net> It's like forgetting the Timex 1000 when talking about the ZX 81 ... ;) Sipke de Wal -------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx -------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Iggy Drougge To: Sipke de Wal Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 2:22 AM Subject: Re: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? Sipke de Wal skrev: >Only 6809 bas a "better" chip but that should have been a true 16-bit design >It came way to late to make a large impact. Only the COCO used it in a >homecomputer. People always seem to forget the poor Dragon. Of course, it was essentially a CoCo, or so they tell me. When was the 6809 released? Wasn't that about the same time as the 68000? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Ecco a voi la sigla di Lupin III in francese... ma... aspettate... qualcosa non quadra...cos'e' questa roba! Holly e Benji? ahahah... povero cantante... gli hanno messo sotto la base sbagliata!!! Tacchan undrar varf?r Captain Tsubasa p? franska har samma ackompanjemang som Lupin III p? italienska From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sat May 5 02:25:06 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: elm In-Reply-To: <200105050345.f453j2i24684@narnia.int.dittman.net> from Eric Dittman at "May 4, 1 10:45:02 pm" Message-ID: <200105050725.AAA11922@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > > > Strange, they're just fine in 'elm'. Last I checked they were also fine > > > > under Eudora 4.0.2/Mac. > > > > > > Ah, another Elm user. :-) > > > > I'll give up elm when they pry this keyboard from my cold dead hands. > > > > I'll give up my persuit of Vaxes and PDP11's first. > > Count me in as another elm user (and a VAX, PDP-11, and > Alpha user). I keep hearing that I need to transition > to some other mail reader, but elm does what I want the > way I want it done. I also use tin rather than some GUI > news reader. I really prefer ANU-News as a news reader, > but it got to the point where it wasn't keeping up. The Elm ME+ branch also has really nice features for PGP and attachments, which is what I use. I like nn best for news. Terse, but fast and hackable. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- The point of good writing is knowing when to stop. -- Lucy Montgomery ------ From frustum at pacbell.net Sat May 5 01:57:35 2001 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? In-Reply-To: References: <01050223425101.00397@jos> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010504234005.00bbbe30@postoffice.pacbell.net> At 02:18 AM 5/4/01 -0500, you wrote: >Does anyone know how many transistors made up the 6502? These days with >Intel's boasting of the number of transistors their latest processors use, >it'd be interesting to know what we used to get by using. What, it can't >have been more than a few thousand, right? Wow -- such a long thread, and no answer yet that I've seen. The following came from a few web sites, but mostly from these two: http://www.intel.com/intel/museum/25anniv/hof/tspecs.htm http://www.mznet.ne.jp/svd/multimedia.htm 4004 -- 2,300 (10 um) 8008 -- 3,500 (10 um) 8080 -- 6,000 (6 um) z80 -- 8,500 6502 -- 4,000 one source, 9000 another source (I tend to believe the 4K number more) 8086 -- 29,000 (3 um) 68000 -- 68,000 (lots of that in microcode) 80286 -- 134,000 (1.5 um) 80386 -- 275,000 (1 um) ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sat May 5 04:06:17 2001 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: elm In-Reply-To: <200105050725.AAA11922@stockholm.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at May 05, 2001 12:25:06 AM Message-ID: <200105050906.DAA28275@calico.litterbox.com> > > Count me in as another elm user (and a VAX, PDP-11, and > > Alpha user). I keep hearing that I need to transition > > to some other mail reader, but elm does what I want the > > way I want it done. I also use tin rather than some GUI > > news reader. I really prefer ANU-News as a news reader, > > but it got to the point where it wasn't keeping up. > > The Elm ME+ branch also has really nice features for PGP and attachments, > which is what I use. > > I like nn best for news. Terse, but fast and hackable. Elm here. What's Elm ME+? rrn and tin for news when I'm not using the BeOS news client. (and boy is rrn getting tough to build on linux these days. But my sweety insists. Real rrn, not this bastard trn.) I use BeOS Postmaster 1.1.1 when I have to retrieve something with a mime attachment. I just don't mark it as read in elm and slurp it down via popmail. > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- The point of good writing is knowing when to stop. -- Lucy Montgomery ------ > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat May 5 04:50:39 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: eBay alert: TI 980B mini and a HUGE IBM drive In-Reply-To: <3AF3922F.22AD76C2@internet1.net> References: <3AF229A7.E2F2BE1D@home.com> <3AF323E8.97AB34AE@dragonsweb.org> <3AF3222A.ADA9E03D@internet1.net> <3AF34EEB.E6FC17B8@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: Fair market price is typically defined as the price agreeable to a willing buyer and seller. If the seller just wants to get rid of an item, and all the buyers are intermediaries who will be selling the item to some third party, then the sales prices is kind of meaningless, or what I will call wholesale vs retail. Thinly traded items have prices that depend more on just who happens to notice them, and how the first bid is arranged. To me personally the fair price is my don't care price, ie when I offer enough that I really don't care if the sellers answer is yes or no, thats my top bid. From pechter at bg-tc-ppp446.monmouth.com Sat May 5 05:55:51 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp446.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: elm In-Reply-To: <200105050906.DAA28275@calico.litterbox.com> from Jim Strickland at "May 5, 2001 03:06:17 am" Message-ID: <200105051055.f45Atrr05956@bg-tc-ppp446.monmouth.com> > > > Count me in as another elm user (and a VAX, PDP-11, and > > > Alpha user). I keep hearing that I need to transition > > > to some other mail reader, but elm does what I want the > > > way I want it done. I also use tin rather than some GUI > > > news reader. I really prefer ANU-News as a news reader, > > > but it got to the point where it wasn't keeping up. > > > > The Elm ME+ branch also has really nice features for PGP and attachments, > > which is what I use. > > > > I like nn best for news. Terse, but fast and hackable. > > Elm here. What's Elm ME+? The ME+ line was started by Michael Elkins (IIRC) who went on to develop mutt in response to elm. It's a patched version with support for some enhancements like metamail for mime, pgp... etc. It's now maintained by (cut and paste... ) Kari E. Hurtta via anonymous ftp files elm-2.4ME+91.tar.gz Is available with via WWW. --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From at258 at osfn.org Sat May 5 07:13:45 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: While we're on it, what's a Convex worth? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We've been offered a Wang VS-85 system in Vermont. Donor is looking for an appraised value. Anyone have any thoughts? M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Sat May 5 09:16:05 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: eBay alert: TI 980B mini and a HUGE IBM drive In-Reply-To: <3AF369B4.71DAB40B@home.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 May 2001, ip500 wrote: > > My point exactly ...who HAS seen a TI 980 sell in the last several > years? And as a consequence of its "relative" rarity ..what is one > worth. As you point out, at the moment it's worth $9.99. eBay .. while > an imperfect marketplace is about as perfect as it gets in the real > world. You seem to have hit it right on the head there, which is the reason I question asking the list to provide an evalution, when members might be contemplating a bid, or have already put one in. That's a main feature of an auction, establishing a value, and it's just not in their interest to circumvent the process. > That's why I NEVER set reserves on things I market through an auction > format ..it's worth exactly what someone will pay for it .. not what I > or anyone elses appraisal of it may be. I have no problem with a reserve, in principle. Paying the fee and possibly turning away bids may be worth the protection against loss if you're basically a reseller, but that's a case where you already know at least the wholesale value of the item. When it comes to unique or hard-to-find items, though, a lot of sellers set a unrealistically high reserve. One bidder's burning passion does not equate to a general high demand. In practice, only Ebay benefits from reserves. Possibly newbie sellers, too, but I think they quickly outgrow them. > I'd trade it in a minute for a decent condition HP 2100A. Always > had a soft spot for HP stuff. If I run across one, I'll let you know. Somebody else is going to get the 980, but we can probably work something out. jbdigriz From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Sat May 5 09:17:25 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: eBay alert: TI 980B mini and a HUGE IBM drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 4 May 2001, Will Jennings wrote: > > I dunno, I suppose that it's really Craig's perogative to do what he wishes, > its his crud.. Old, yes, potentially interesting, yes, but above all; his. A > good example would be a lot of the crud I've pitched because I didn't have > the time to screw with it, or stuff I've picked up cheap because I expressed > interest in it and the surplus guy said "you want it, then get it outta here > today and I'll make it cheap". Besides, in my dealings with him I've never > had any reason to dislike him, nor does your average a-hole rack up 667 > positive feedbacks! > > Will J Has anyone said that it's NOT his prerogative? jbdigriz From jtinker at coin.org Sat May 5 08:19:40 2001 From: jtinker at coin.org (John Tinker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: Imlac PDS-1 documents References: Message-ID: <3AF3FDEB.CB121897@coin.org> Hi Sellam, I'll be ready to start digging into the Imlac soon, I hope, so could use to have the documents back. Did they do you any good? I hope so. -- John Tinker From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Sat May 5 10:13:06 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: eBay alert: TI 980B mini and a HUGE IBM drive References: <3AF229A7.E2F2BE1D@home.com> <3AF323E8.97AB34AE@dragonsweb.org> <3AF3222A.ADA9E03D@internet1.net> <3AF34EEB.E6FC17B8@dragonsweb.org> <3AF3922F.22AD76C2@internet1.net> Message-ID: <3AF41882.D08C346C@dragonsweb.org> Chad Fernandez wrote: > > I don't agree with any theoretical "worth" rhetoric. What people want > to know when they ask, is normal street price, for a given condition and > configuration. If I am interested in something on Ebay, but don't > really know what I would expect to pay for it, it would be wise to ask > before bidding too much money. Why would I "buy it now", or be the > winning bid at twice it's normal value? If I pay $100 for a $50 item > does that mean I magically doubled the value of all like items? No! I > paid double, and the seller made out like a bandit! What make the item > a $50 item is that the said item is sold for $50 quite often, when > available. I say, when available, since many of the items concerning > this list, aren't produced in regular production anymore, in many cases. > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA I think we're agreement on this. If you really wanted that $50 item though, you might well pay $100 for it and not consider yourself robbed. Especially if it was in good shape, operational, with docs and software. Speaking of availability, a TI-88 came up on Ebay a couple of years ago. This calc was never produced, only prototypes were made. It was heavily hyped by TI to the existing TI58/59 user base, though. I predicted to the seller that it would go for $600-$800. It ended up just shy of $600. It might have hit my target if I had been able to afford a bid at the time. Unfortunately, I'm not in a position to say "cost be damned." I have to rely on shrewd bidding, sniping (except against other serious collectors who are likely to trade with me.), trading, dumpster-diving, dumb luck, etc., and I'm thinking of going into the salvage business myself, just to get my hands on stuff. And I think these will be just about my last words on the subject at present. regards, jbdigriz From edick at idcomm.com Sat May 5 09:20:02 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? References: <01050223425101.00397@jos> <4.3.2.7.0.20010504234005.00bbbe30@postoffice.pacbell.net> Message-ID: <000d01c0d56e$796bca40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> While I don't know what the "real" numbers are, I'm inclined to believe this (4000) number, at least relative to the others just based on the internal resources. What I find odd, by the way, is that this ratio, seemingly quite reasonable, doesn't show up in the IP-cores available today. While it's quite reasonable to believe the 650x core with only four internal software-accessible registers (A,X,Y, SP) would have a substantially lower gate count than a Z80, which has lots of register resources, (A,B,C,D,E,H,L,IX,IY,SP, plus a second set of the same) and it does, but nowhere near the ratio that these registers suggest. Of course there are several ways of looking at the definition of "gate" but it's odd that the ratio of gates consumed by each of these cores doesn't approach the >2:1 that this estimate reflects. The production level pricing, basically a cost based on silicon by the pound, seems to reflect this same ratio as do the comparisons of the era when the 6502 was current. What would be interesting, since it's conspicuously absent from the list quoted below, is the transistor count in the 6802 (a 6800 with internal clock generator) and 6809. One thing that I found fascinating back in '81-'82 when MOT started a big push for their two relatively new brain-children, the 68K and the 6805, was that the 6805 was, in fact, a bigger chip. They glued a bare chip to each data sheet they passed out at their sales seminars back then and the 6805, with its peripherals, timers, ram, ROM, etc, was markedly bigger. It made me wonder how they fit the chip to the lead frame I was accustomed to associating with the 28 and 40-pin packages used for them. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Battle" To: Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 12:57 AM Subject: Re: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? > At 02:18 AM 5/4/01 -0500, you wrote: > >Does anyone know how many transistors made up the 6502? These days with > >Intel's boasting of the number of transistors their latest processors use, > >it'd be interesting to know what we used to get by using. What, it can't > >have been more than a few thousand, right? > > Wow -- such a long thread, and no answer yet that I've seen. The following > came from a few web sites, but mostly from these two: > http://www.intel.com/intel/museum/25anniv/hof/tspecs.htm > http://www.mznet.ne.jp/svd/multimedia.htm > > 4004 -- 2,300 (10 um) > 8008 -- 3,500 (10 um) > 8080 -- 6,000 (6 um) > z80 -- 8,500 > 6502 -- 4,000 one source, 9000 another source (I tend to believe the 4K > number more) > 8086 -- 29,000 (3 um) > 68000 -- 68,000 (lots of that in microcode) > 80286 -- 134,000 (1.5 um) > 80386 -- 275,000 (1 um) > > > ----- > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > > From sipke at wxs.nl Sat May 5 09:34:41 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? References: <01050223425101.00397@jos> <4.3.2.7.0.20010504234005.00bbbe30@postoffice.pacbell.net> <000d01c0d56e$796bca40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <001301c0d570$873dc680$030101ac@boll.casema.net> I tend to trust the 4000 number more also........ Especially since the source article that gives 9000 transistors for the 6502 has a few other flaws. most strikingly..... ...... naming the Z80 as the host of CP/M where that clearly should have been the 8080. That the Z80 is downward compatible is nice but the native CP/M assembler was an 8080 assembler not a Z80 assembler. Sipke de Wal ------------------------------------------------ http://xgistor.ath.cx ------------------------------------------------ ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Erlacher To: Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 4:20 PM Subject: Re: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? > While I don't know what the "real" numbers are, I'm inclined to believe this > (4000) number, at least relative to the others just based on the internal > resources. > From bpope at wordstock.com Sat May 5 11:13:31 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage In-Reply-To: <01050305374604.00808@fatty> from "Brian Roth" at May 3, 01 05:36:57 am Message-ID: <200105051613.MAA02417@wordstock.com> Canuk = Canadian, eh! Americans!! grrr... next thing you will be asking "How is your igloo these days?" Cheers, Bryan > > Claude, > > What is a Canuk? > > Brian. > > > > On Thu, 03 May 2001, you wrote: > > Oh well... > > > > With all the exposure of computer collecting I guess this will shot the > > price of vintage stuff on ebay up!!! (lol!) > > > > Well it's a canadian show and they did not come and see me...I think it's > > even based in Montreal, but I am not sure. But then again my collection is > > kinda small compared to this guy...but then again, I don't really collect > > X86 and compatibles...unless they are something outta the ordinary.... > > > > I think it will be broadcast again this week, I will try to grab it...and > > tape it...heck, maybe even try to transfer it to a file or something....I > > think I have somekinda video grab card for a MAC called a Moonraker here > > somewhere...but where? > > > > I can only imagine perhaps the weird and odd machines I might have been > > offered for free with the exposure of going on TV...oh well...there is > > always my "patato chip in the shape of animals" collection that might get me > > on the tube...or my "survivor - in the space station" application...counting > > on that too.... > > > > Life goes on up north...and it's finally hot and the pool is ready... > > > > Claude > > Canuk Computer Collector > > http://computer_collector.tripod.com > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: George Leo Rachor Jr. > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 5:32 PM > > Subject: Re: Interesting show on the Computer Garage > > > > > > > His name is Jim Willing... > > > > > > Congrats Jim! Your famous again! > > > > > > George > > > > > > ========================================================= > > > George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com > > > Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com > > > United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > > > > > > On Wed, 2 May 2001, Chris Halarewich wrote: > > > > > > > Hello all: > > > > Last night, tuesday I was waching Undercurrants on CBC Newsworld > > > > (canadian brodcasting company 24 hr news station ) When I saw a story > > > > about the Compiter Garage in Beverton Oregon, USA very informative > > > > segment kudos to the proprietor (can't remember name right now) > > > > thanx > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > -- > > > > # Netscape POP3 State File > > > > # This is a generated file! Do not edit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Brian Roth - System Administrator > www.webwirz.com - Old Computer Repository > > Preoccupation is my main occupation..... > From fernande at internet1.net Sat May 5 11:26:00 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: Different IBM Model M keyboard Message-ID: <3AF42998.1BC6A1D3@internet1.net> Hello, I like the IBM Model M keyboard. They are very durable, have a good feel, and I can easily find them cheap. Yesterday, I bought one that is a bit different, However. The feel, isn't quite the same, which really surprises me. It's not particularly bad, just a little different. I don't think it is any newer or older than others I have owned. The big difference is not feel, but color! This one has colored keys! I think it is set up for use with Wordperfect, but am unsure. The Shift keys are green, the alts blue, and ctrls are red. Then some of the other keys are a very light yellow, or creamy color and are labeled for different functions. Each of those keys has 4 functions depending if you press the shift, the alt, or ctrl. Unfortunately, I am missing one blue alt key cap :-( Is this factory IBM, or is it a fairly standard Model M with an aftermarket key cap kit? These aren't just stickers like I have seen before. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat May 5 11:36:34 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: Different IBM Model M keyboard In-Reply-To: <3AF42998.1BC6A1D3@internet1.net> Message-ID: Probably those aftermarket replacement caps they sold some years ago that went on in place of the originals. They had sets for DVORAK terminals too -really weird looking. I had one with them on and swapped all the covers from a fried one that had regular caps and made one good QWERTY style from a good DVORAK and one bad QWERTY. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Chad Fernandez > Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 11:26 AM > To: Classic Computers > Subject: Different IBM Model M keyboard > > > Hello, > > I like the IBM Model M keyboard. They are very durable, have a good > feel, and I can easily find them cheap. Yesterday, I bought one that is > a bit different, However. The feel, isn't quite the same, which really > surprises me. It's not particularly bad, just a little different. I > don't think it is any newer or older than others I have owned. The big > difference is not feel, but color! This one has colored keys! I think > it is set up for use with Wordperfect, but am unsure. The Shift keys > are green, the alts blue, and ctrls are red. Then some of the other > keys are a very light yellow, or creamy color and are labeled for > different functions. Each of those keys has 4 functions depending if > you press the shift, the alt, or ctrl. > > Unfortunately, I am missing one blue alt key cap :-( > > Is this factory IBM, or is it a fairly standard Model M with an > aftermarket key cap kit? These aren't just stickers like I have seen > before. > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat May 5 11:34:12 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage In-Reply-To: <200105051613.MAA02417@wordstock.com> Message-ID: Well how is it? (grin) > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Bryan Pope > Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 11:14 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Interesting show on the Computer Garage > > > Canuk = Canadian, eh! > > > Americans!! grrr... next thing you will be asking "How is your > igloo these > days?" > > > Cheers, > > Bryan > > > > > > > Claude, > > > > What is a Canuk? > > > > Brian. > > > > > > > > On Thu, 03 May 2001, you wrote: > > > Oh well... > > > > > > With all the exposure of computer collecting I guess this > will shot the > > > price of vintage stuff on ebay up!!! (lol!) > > > > > > Well it's a canadian show and they did not come and see > me...I think it's > > > even based in Montreal, but I am not sure. But then again my > collection is > > > kinda small compared to this guy...but then again, I don't > really collect > > > X86 and compatibles...unless they are something outta the ordinary.... > > > > > > I think it will be broadcast again this week, I will try to > grab it...and > > > tape it...heck, maybe even try to transfer it to a file or > something....I > > > think I have somekinda video grab card for a MAC called a > Moonraker here > > > somewhere...but where? > > > > > > I can only imagine perhaps the weird and odd machines I might > have been > > > offered for free with the exposure of going on TV...oh well...there is > > > always my "patato chip in the shape of animals" collection > that might get me > > > on the tube...or my "survivor - in the space station" > application...counting > > > on that too.... > > > > > > Life goes on up north...and it's finally hot and the pool is ready... > > > > > > Claude > > > Canuk Computer Collector > > > http://computer_collector.tripod.com > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: George Leo Rachor Jr. > > > To: > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 5:32 PM > > > Subject: Re: Interesting show on the Computer Garage > > > > > > > > > > His name is Jim Willing... > > > > > > > > Congrats Jim! Your famous again! > > > > > > > > George > > > > > > > > ========================================================= > > > > George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com > > > > Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com > > > > United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > > > > > > > > On Wed, 2 May 2001, Chris Halarewich wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hello all: > > > > > Last night, tuesday I was waching Undercurrants on > CBC Newsworld > > > > > (canadian brodcasting company 24 hr news station ) When > I saw a story > > > > > about the Compiter Garage in Beverton Oregon, USA very informative > > > > > segment kudos to the proprietor (can't remember name right now) > > > > > thanx > > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > # Netscape POP3 State File > > > > > # This is a generated file! Do not edit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Brian Roth - System Administrator > > www.webwirz.com - Old Computer Repository > > > > Preoccupation is my main occupation..... > > > From mac at Wireless.Com Sat May 5 12:19:42 2001 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? In-Reply-To: <001301c0d570$873dc680$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: >From Microprocessor Report, in chronological order: 8008: 3.5K transistors 14 mm^2 6800: 4.1K transistors 16 mm^2 8080: 4.8K transistors 20 mm^2 1802: 5K transistors 27 mm^2 6502: 4K transistors 21 mm^2 Z80: 8.5K transistors 18 mm^2 8085: 6.5K transistors 20 mm^2 8086: 29K transistors 33 mm^2 8088: 29K transistors 33 mm^2 Z8001 17.5K transistors 39 mm^2 68000 68K transistors 44 mm^2 6809: 9K transistors 21 mm^2 I really hate to interrupt this group's speculation with actual data, but I'm weird in that way. -Mike On Sat, 5 May 2001, Sipke de Wal wrote: > Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 16:34:41 +0200 > From: Sipke de Wal > Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? > > I tend to trust the 4000 number more also........ > > Especially since the source article that gives 9000 transistors > for the 6502 has a few other flaws. most strikingly..... > > ...... naming the Z80 as the host of CP/M where that clearly should > have been the 8080. That the Z80 is downward compatible is > nice but the native CP/M assembler was an 8080 assembler not > a Z80 assembler. > > Sipke de Wal > ------------------------------------------------ > http://xgistor.ath.cx > ------------------------------------------------ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Richard Erlacher > To: > Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 4:20 PM > Subject: Re: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? > > > > While I don't know what the "real" numbers are, I'm inclined to believe this > > (4000) number, at least relative to the others just based on the internal > > resources. > > > > > From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Sat May 5 08:14:34 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010504234005.00bbbe30@postoffice.pacbell.net> References: <01050223425101.00397@jos> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010505091434.00d2f818@obregon.multi.net.co> At 11:57 PM 5/4/01 -0700, you wrote: >6502 -- 4,000 one source, 9000 another source (I tend to believe the 4K >number more) Perhaps the 9000 quote is for a CMOS part? Carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Sat May 5 12:19:53 2001 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: Allison: 2910c version of z80 References: <005c01c0d4ec$2bcbf0d0$ba749a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <007901c0d587$9a1d8120$3992a8c0@sympatico.ca> AMD did have an Ap note on the 2901's that described a then fast (I think about 4mhz) version of the 8080. IDT later made much faster versions of the 2901 and 2910- in CMOS and they were I recall about twice as fast. 2901's were used in manu machines including DEC PDP10-KS-10s (albeit it was the slowest machine in the line)..these days a nice Virtex or Spartan fpga will fit a whole processor with up to 1mbit or sram on chip. ----- Original Message ----- From: "ajp166" To: Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 6:45 PM Subject: Re: Allison: 2910c version of z80 > From: John Ott > >I don't have your email address. So, do you still have the schematics > >of your 2901C version of the z80? Have you done any stack based cpu's > >with bit slice chips? (e.g. something to run native forth code on ) > > > >john > > > I do still have them. No, I wont publish the notebook that contains the > collected wisdom. I did this a lot of years ago. > > My $.02 2901 was an ok device but slow and turned out to the the > speed limiter. Also the microcode for was a pain! Never did a stack > cpu though the PDP-11 does that very well as is. > > Allison > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 5 13:38:18 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:03 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? In-Reply-To: <696.525T2050T825915optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at May 5, 1 01:22:41 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3325 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010505/ef28f7a7/attachment.ksh From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat May 5 14:01:27 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? Message-ID: <00e601c0d596$f9b9fbe0$ba749a8d@ajp166> From: Richard Erlacher No question the 6502 was fewer gates than z80/6800 as that was the guys to chase. The 8080 was hard to hit as the 8080 required so much more external support that any of the 5V only cpus. It would be more fair to compare 6502 to 8085 in the gate count and die size derby. >believe the 650x core with only four internal software-accessible registers >(A,X,Y, SP) would have a substantially lower gate count than a Z80, which has >lots of register resources, (A,B,C,D,E,H,L,IX,IY,SP, plus a second set of the >same) and it does, but nowhere near the ratio that these registers suggest. Of >course there are several ways of looking at the definition of "gate" but it's Think of registers as memory bits... Z80 those number about 208 where 6502 has far fewer. However this is relative as a register can be one transistor and cap (dynamic) or a lot more for static. I believe the 6602 was a dynamic machine like many of the time. >odd that the ratio of gates consumed by each of these cores doesn't approach the >>2:1 that this estimate reflects. The production level pricing, basically a >cost based on silicon by the pound, seems to reflect this same ratio as do the >comparisons of the era when the 6502 was current. Whats not relected is the associated gating and silicon busses. Those eat logic and realestate as they are often less regular. >What would be interesting, since it's conspicuously absent from the list quoted >below, is the transistor count in the 6802 (a 6800 with internal clock >generator) and 6809. Yes, those should be there. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat May 5 14:14:19 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? Message-ID: <00ed01c0d599$13d48020$ba749a8d@ajp166> From: Mike Cheponis Reordered your list by transistor count and added caveats... >From Microprocessor Report, in chronological order: > >8008: 3.5K transistors 14 mm^2 >1802: 5K transistors 27 mm^2 if 1802 were done in Nmos it would have been far lower transistor count. As it is CMOS there are many cases in the logic where two complmentary transistors exist where NMOS would have used one. It is also the ONLY one on the list that was fully static logic. Its registers used a lot of transistors as the raw flipflop. >6502: 4K transistors 21 mm^2 fewer transistors and also a clever design made for an easy mask that had good yeild for the die size. >6800: 4.1K transistors 16 mm^2 >8080: 4.8K transistors 20 mm^2 >8085: 6.5K transistors 20 mm^2 >Z80: 8.5K transistors 18 mm^2 >6809: 9K transistors 21 mm^2 >Z8001 17.5K transistors 39 mm^2 >8086: 29K transistors 33 mm^2 >8088: 29K transistors 33 mm^2 >68000 68K transistors 44 mm^2 >I really hate to interrupt this group's speculation with actual data, but >I'm weird in that way. Thanks, it's not as if the data was a top secret. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat May 5 14:20:07 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: Allison: 2910c version of z80 Message-ID: <00ee01c0d599$14440ad0$ba749a8d@ajp166> From: Heinz Wolter >AMD did have an Ap note on the 2901's that described >a then fast (I think about 4mhz) version of the 8080. At 4mhz that was 2x standard 8080 speed. Hitting 8mhz with (the 1981 parts) with 2901s as Z80 was hard and that was only 2x. Within a year (1982) there would be 6mhz z80s and by 1984ish 8mhz z80s. >IDT later made much faster versions of the 2901 and 2910- >in CMOS and they were I recall about twice as fast. 2901's Foo, the 2910 was only soso. Would have liked a faster 2902 or 2911. >a nice Virtex or Spartan fpga will fit a whole processor >with up to 1mbit or sram on chip. Far more interesting, out of my range of tools to do. Allison From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sat May 5 14:46:50 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "May 5, 1 07:38:18 pm" Message-ID: <200105051946.MAA08846@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > That's one main difference between the CoCo and the Dragon. The other is > rather more annoying. While the BASICs are compatible as the Ascii > source level, the tokens used for each keyword are different on the 2 > machines (!). So you can't CSAVE a program on a CoCo and CLOAD it into a > dragon and expect it to work. I have no idea why it was done this way -- > IMHO it's stupid. A CoCo-nut (hah, that's actually pretty funny ;-) I used to know said it was for legal reasons or something like that. I think Radio Shack got cold feet about having a European competitor. I was never fond of the CoCo 1/2 or the MC-10, but I really liked the CoCo 3. I used to assist an elementary school teacher who had a network of CoCo 2s that I wrote educational software for (he used my fractional division tutor for years ;-). The CoCo 3 had the only disk drive in the class, so he got one of the Radio Shack network-over-cassette-port rotary switches and we loaded the program on all the CoCo 2s by turning the switch and typing CLOAD on the appropriate machine. I thought the CoCo 3 had a lot going for it. Its graphics were much, much better than its ancestors and I liked CoCo BASIC. Perhaps I'll have to get one of my own now. :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing. -- W. von Braun From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat May 5 14:49:24 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: Allison: 2910c version of z80 In-Reply-To: <00ee01c0d599$14440ad0$ba749a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010505124457.02431370@208.226.86.10> Heinz mentioned the Spartan FPGAs and Allison added: >a nice Virtex or Spartan fpga will fit a whole processor > >with up to 1mbit or sram on chip. >Far more interesting, out of my range of tools to do. >Allison Check again Allison. I've been playing around with a Spartan-II 200K gate FPGA that is on a board built by Tony Burch (and my experiences with it are here: ). The board and some support stuff (SRAM, Serial/Kbd/mouse ports, etc) was less than $400 and the design tools are *free*. You do have to take the time to learn VHDL but so far the payoff has been worth it for me. I'm having a blast with this thing. My "final" is a PDP-8 w/ Serial terminal (think DECMate in a single chip) with full lights and switches. This chip can do that easily. I don't think it can do a KL-10 but it might ... --Chuck From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat May 5 13:44:45 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: elm In-Reply-To: <200105051055.f45Atrr05956@bg-tc-ppp446.monmouth.com> References: <200105050906.DAA28275@calico.litterbox.com> from Jim Strickland at "May 5, 2001 03:06:17 am" Message-ID: My first ISP was a cheapo outfit that offered only shell access. You know what, I don't miss elm, nn, et al a bleepin bit. From allain at panix.com Sat May 5 15:38:15 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: modern? DEC 8" at TCF References: <200105050906.DAA28275@calico.litterbox.com> from JimStrickland at "May 5, 2001 03:06:17 am" Message-ID: <001901c0d5a3$50365f20$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Anybody want to help me ID this drive? It appeared to be 8" platter, but new, approx 9"x7"x18" 20lb? or so, power-ish connector >6 pins on one end, SCSI-ish on the other, with the following >>> DEC <<< #'s: P/N 70-26850-02 S/N KP04834329 Bearing P/N 70-27265-01 S/N CX10325134 RevE09 P/N 70-27492-01 S/N CX10325134 It was very light for its size. I'm probably going to go back and but 1 tomorrow ($10) but will get more if people here want. I was surprised to see such a large drive since the seller said he got them new and most nonremoveable drives made in the last 10 years have been 5.25~3.5 form factor. Anyhoo, lemme know if'n you know/want. John A. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 5 15:47:23 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: Allison: 2910c version of z80 In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010505124457.02431370@208.226.86.10> from "Chuck McManis" at May 5, 1 12:49:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 344 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010505/73a12f5e/attachment.ksh From claudew at videotron.ca Sat May 5 15:59:51 2001 From: claudew at videotron.ca (Claude.W) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: TVs Undercurrents report on JIMs computer garage/classic computer collecting, who wants to see this? Message-ID: <010001c0d5a6$53c0b700$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> Hi all I taped the re-braodcast of this today. I am thinking of transfering this to a multimedia file and dumping it somewhere, it's about 5-10 minutes and does not go indept on the "hobby" but it's kinda fun and I think Jim has a few good "quotes" in there...about the hobby, computers and the vintage "market".... Now I only have to check to see if I have something around here to transfer this to a file... Claude http://computer_collector.tripod.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 5 15:54:25 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? In-Reply-To: <200105051946.MAA08846@stockholm.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at May 5, 1 12:46:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1497 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010505/29d6a320/attachment.ksh From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat May 5 16:16:25 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: Compaq Service Quick Reference Guides In-Reply-To: <3AF42998.1BC6A1D3@internet1.net> Message-ID: In my recent auction buy I have (5) Compaq Service Quick Reference Guides, pub 1992, starts with Contura and LTE and goes up through Systempro 486/33, total pages 240 or so. These look like working books for techs with basic info like jumpers, memory, etc. I am keeping one for myself, the other 4 are first come first served, $2 each plus $1.50 postage in USA. From optimus at canit.se Sat May 5 17:21:39 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: elm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <606.525T1950T14015455optimus@canit.se> Mike Ford skrev: >My first ISP was a cheapo outfit that offered only shell access. You know >what, I don't miss elm, nn, et al a bleepin bit. I would never even consider an ISP which weren't offering shell access. That is what I call cheapo outfits. I hear that "modern" ISPs don't even offer an NNTP server. OTOH, I'd never run elm or nn, not when there is pine and tin. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Georgie beundrade stor?gt sin pappa som med v?ldsamma slag gick l?s p? det stora tr?det. Han badade i svett, och den muskul?sa kroppen bl?nkte i solskenet. Hon ?lskade honom. Lady Georgie, TMS 1983 From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat May 5 17:22:33 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: Compaq Service Quick Reference Guides In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >In my recent auction buy I have (5) Compaq Service Quick Reference Guides, >pub 1992, starts with Contura and LTE and goes up through Systempro 486/33, >total pages 240 or so. These look like working books for techs with basic >info like jumpers, memory, etc. I am keeping one for myself, the other 4 >are first come first served, $2 each plus $1.50 postage in USA. I found an interesting reference guide today published by Ashton-Tate. It's the 'Reference Encyclopedia for the IBM Personal Computer, Second Edition' by Gary and Karen Phillips. It was published in 1983 and covers two volumes in the typical binder/slipcase configuration that documentation tended to use at that time. It covers commands, various programs of the period, manufacturers and other terms and such. Pretty interesting. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sat May 5 17:41:18 2001 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: modern? DEC 8" at TCF Message-ID: <20010505.174120.-4101401.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Sources on the net say this is (part of) an RA-92. On Sat, 5 May 2001 16:38:15 -0400 "John Allain" writes: > Anybody want to help me ID this drive? > It appeared to be 8" platter, but new, approx > 9"x7"x18" 20lb? or so, power-ish connector >6 pins > on one end, SCSI-ish on the other, > > with the following >>> DEC <<< #'s: > P/N 70-26850-02 S/N KP04834329 Bearing > P/N 70-27265-01 S/N CX10325134 RevE09 > P/N 70-27492-01 S/N CX10325134 > > It was very light for its size. > > I'm probably going to go back and but 1 tomorrow ($10) > but will get more if people here want. > > I was surprised to see such a large drive since the seller > said he got them new and most nonremoveable drives > made in the last 10 years have been 5.25~3.5 form factor. > > Anyhoo, lemme know if'n you know/want. > > John A. > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat May 5 18:50:46 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: Allison: 2910c version of z80 Message-ID: <013301c0d5be$da102e90$ba749a8d@ajp166> From: Chuck McManis >tools are *free*. You do have to take the time to learn VHDL but so far the >payoff has been worth it for me. I'm having a blast with this thing. My VHDL.... that was the cost I refer to. Most of me design experience is pre VHDL availbility. I already have the Lattice Synario and that bends my mind greatly. I havent used the small 2064 and 3030 FPGAs I have a good handful of yet. Time is costly for me these days. >"final" is a PDP-8 w/ Serial terminal (think DECMate in a single chip) with >full lights and switches. This chip can do that easily. I don't think it Major cool. My personal "I'd like to do" is a 32 bit wide '8 by grafting another 20 bits to the right side of the word and running it fast. Same instrcution set and the left 5 bits would remain the same. I'd use all 32 bits for OPR instructions to eliminate decoding (one per bit) and simplify the IOT interface some. Obviously the page (formerly 128 words) would be much bigger but direct addressing of 256MW out of a 4gb address space wouldn't be a significant shortcomming. I doubt I'd need to do the EMA. ;) Allison From harrison at timharrison.com Sat May 5 19:02:08 2001 From: harrison at timharrison.com (Tim Harrison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage References: <200105051613.MAA02417@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <3AF49480.465E5C13@timharrison.com> Bryan Pope wrote: > Canuk = Canadian, eh! Well, to be more accurate, a "canuck" is a term for a Canadian. :) > > Americans!! grrr... next thing you will be asking "How is your igloo these > days?" > You can't imagine how often I get this. Or, how often the people around me start to chuckle when I say "about", or "house", or the occasional "eh". If anyone taped the "Talking To Americans" Rick Mercer special, please let me know! I'm dying to watch it. I heard part of it over the telephone while talking to my father, but I want my wife to see it. I keep telling people that Canadians say "eh" at the end of statements, as a way of inviting comments and furthering the conversation, whereas Americans, who say "huh" are asserting their viewpoint, and expect no further discussion on the subject. (How's that for a run-on sentence, eh?) > Bryan > You and me both. Everywhere from London through to Sault Ste. Marie has been home. Now, I'm living (again) with my American wife in New York. Computing-wise, living in either country hasn't been a problem. When we moved back to Toronto, I just shipped things across the border. Now we have one less step in acquiring stuff, even though, I'm about to do a massive paring down of the collective. I need the space back, and I've gotten the "I never had any toys when I was young, and now I can have everything!" phase out of my system. Time to focus on the few machines that I really want. -- Tim Harrison Network Engineer harrison@timharrison.com http://www.networklevel.com/ From broth at heathers.stdio.com Sat May 5 18:22:16 2001 From: broth at heathers.stdio.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage In-Reply-To: <200105051613.MAA02417@wordstock.com> References: <200105051613.MAA02417@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <01050519240201.00787@fatty> Didn't really mean anything by it. I live 10 min from the border. I'm well familiar with the term, I was just wondering if it had a real meaning besides slang. OK, next question. Whats a Hab? Brian. On Sat, 05 May 2001, you wrote: > Canuk = Canadian, eh! > > > Americans!! grrr... next thing you will be asking "How is your igloo these > days?" > > > Cheers, > > Bryan > > > > > > > Claude, > > > > What is a Canuk? > > > > Brian. > > > > > > > > On Thu, 03 May 2001, you wrote: > > > Oh well... > > > > > > With all the exposure of computer collecting I guess this will shot the > > > price of vintage stuff on ebay up!!! (lol!) > > > > > > Well it's a canadian show and they did not come and see me...I think it's > > > even based in Montreal, but I am not sure. But then again my collection is > > > kinda small compared to this guy...but then again, I don't really collect > > > X86 and compatibles...unless they are something outta the ordinary.... > > > > > > I think it will be broadcast again this week, I will try to grab it...and > > > tape it...heck, maybe even try to transfer it to a file or something....I > > > think I have somekinda video grab card for a MAC called a Moonraker here > > > somewhere...but where? > > > > > > I can only imagine perhaps the weird and odd machines I might have been > > > offered for free with the exposure of going on TV...oh well...there is > > > always my "patato chip in the shape of animals" collection that might get me > > > on the tube...or my "survivor - in the space station" application...counting > > > on that too.... > > > > > > Life goes on up north...and it's finally hot and the pool is ready... > > > > > > Claude > > > Canuk Computer Collector > > > http://computer_collector.tripod.com > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: George Leo Rachor Jr. > > > To: > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 5:32 PM > > > Subject: Re: Interesting show on the Computer Garage > > > > > > > > > > His name is Jim Willing... > > > > > > > > Congrats Jim! Your famous again! > > > > > > > > George > > > > > > > > ========================================================= > > > > George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com > > > > Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com > > > > United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > > > > > > > > On Wed, 2 May 2001, Chris Halarewich wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hello all: > > > > > Last night, tuesday I was waching Undercurrants on CBC Newsworld > > > > > (canadian brodcasting company 24 hr news station ) When I saw a story > > > > > about the Compiter Garage in Beverton Oregon, USA very informative > > > > > segment kudos to the proprietor (can't remember name right now) > > > > > thanx > > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > # Netscape POP3 State File > > > > > # This is a generated file! Do not edit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Brian Roth - System Administrator > > www.webwirz.com - Old Computer Repository > > > > Preoccupation is my main occupation..... > > -- Brian Roth - System Administrator www.webwirz.com - Old Computer Repository Preoccupation is my main occupation..... From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat May 5 19:21:21 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage In-Reply-To: <3AF49480.465E5C13@timharrison.com> Message-ID: I lived a couple years in Plattsburgh NY, "aboot" 40 miles from Montreal and on top of the stereotypical ENglish Candian accent we also had the French trapper sort of accent, real mess on top of the Vermont yankee accent across the lake. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tim Harrison > Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 7:02 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Interesting show on the Computer Garage > > > Bryan Pope wrote: > > > Canuk = Canadian, eh! > > Well, to be more accurate, a "canuck" is a term for a Canadian. :) > > > > > Americans!! grrr... next thing you will be asking "How is your > igloo these > > days?" > > > > You can't imagine how often I get this. Or, how often the people around > me start to chuckle when I say "about", or "house", or the occasional > "eh". If anyone taped the "Talking To Americans" Rick Mercer special, > please let me know! I'm dying to watch it. I heard part of it over the > telephone while talking to my father, but I want my wife to see it. > > I keep telling people that Canadians say "eh" at the end of statements, > as a way of inviting comments and furthering the conversation, whereas > Americans, who say "huh" are asserting their viewpoint, and expect no > further discussion on the subject. > > (How's that for a run-on sentence, eh?) > > > Bryan > > > > You and me both. Everywhere from London through to Sault Ste. Marie has > been home. Now, I'm living (again) with my American wife in New York. > Computing-wise, living in either country hasn't been a problem. When we > moved back to Toronto, I just shipped things across the border. Now we > have one less step in acquiring stuff, even though, I'm about to do a > massive paring down of the collective. I need the space back, and I've > gotten the "I never had any toys when I was young, and now I can have > everything!" phase out of my system. Time to focus on the few machines > that I really want. > > -- > > > Tim Harrison > Network Engineer > harrison@timharrison.com > http://www.networklevel.com/ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat May 5 19:45:11 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: + and - on HP21 calculator? Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010505174300.023f2050@208.226.86.10> Hi, I've got an HP-21 that is missing the battery pack. Does anyone know which pin is plus and which minus when you look at the calculator from the back, with the AC adapter plug facing up? I can probably synthesize a battery pack with a couple of AA NiCd cells but wouldn't want to hook it up backwards. There are two contacts at the "back" of the battery box for the cells and it would be useful to know this info ... --Chuck From claudew at videotron.ca Sat May 5 19:53:49 2001 From: claudew at videotron.ca (Claude.W) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage References: <200105051613.MAA02417@wordstock.com> <3AF49480.465E5C13@timharrison.com> Message-ID: <002201c0d5c7$03861160$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> Well.... > massive paring down of the collective. I need the space back, and I've > gotten the "I never had any toys when I was young, and now I can have > everything!" phase out of my system. Time to focus on the few machines > that I really want. Thats my situation, I think I am a big kid that wants it all...but heck, it's like that sticker I got from that RC car company - -says : "HE WHO DIES WITH THE MOST TOYS - WINS!" Claude http://computer_collector.tripod.com From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat May 5 20:22:42 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: + and - on HP21 calculator? In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010505174300.023f2050@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: In reverse shouldn't hurt it, just as if you put AA cells in a radio and they were backwards. Transistorized equipment is polarized to work so my guess is that it wouldn't hurt it. Charging them backwards might though. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Chuck McManis > Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 7:45 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: + and - on HP21 calculator? > > > Hi, I've got an HP-21 that is missing the battery pack. Does anyone know > which pin is plus and which minus when you look at the calculator > from the > back, with the AC adapter plug facing up? I can probably synthesize a > battery pack with a couple of AA NiCd cells but wouldn't want to > hook it up > backwards. > > There are two contacts at the "back" of the battery box for the cells and > it would be useful to know this info ... > > --Chuck > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat May 5 20:45:09 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: + and - on HP21 calculator? In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010505174300.023f2050@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010505184211.0242bdc0@208.226.86.10> Ah but the battery box is designed to take the molded HP battery unit, which plugged into the back, rotated down and latched into the top (see for a picture. Since it would be "impossible" to connect it backwards its possible the HP engineers dismissed that possibility and said fine this will never come up. --Chuck At 08:22 PM 5/5/01 -0500, you wrote: >In reverse shouldn't hurt it, just as if you put AA cells in a radio and >they were backwards. Transistorized equipment is polarized to work so my >guess is that it wouldn't hurt it. Charging them backwards might though. From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat May 5 21:21:26 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: + and - on HP21 calculator? In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010505184211.0242bdc0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: I assumed that it needed a molded battery unit but the main gist was that if you made your battery pack and polarized it wrong that it probably wouldn't hurt it. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Chuck McManis > Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 8:45 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: + and - on HP21 calculator? > > > Ah but the battery box is designed to take the molded HP battery unit, > which plugged into the back, rotated down and latched into the top (see > for a picture. Since it would > be "impossible" to connect it backwards its possible the HP engineers > dismissed that possibility and said fine this will never come up. > > --Chuck > > At 08:22 PM 5/5/01 -0500, you wrote: > >In reverse shouldn't hurt it, just as if you put AA cells in a radio and > >they were backwards. Transistorized equipment is polarized to work so my > >guess is that it wouldn't hurt it. Charging them backwards might though. > > > > > From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Sat May 5 21:35:46 2001 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: Allison: 2910c version of z80 and FPGAs - a little O/T References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010505124457.02431370@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <029601c0d5d5$41ffb000$3992a8c0@sympatico.ca> Chuck, interesting you should mention the Burch kit...and the PDP10 in the same message! I'm using my Burch- board( a wonderful product at a great price- good work Tony!) to debug bits and pieces of my KL-10 fpga design. So far I've only got the 36bit alu, IR, MAR/MDR, CC muxes(the easy parts) and am reverse engineering the rest from the KS-10 and KL-10 microcode. You can do a lot with even a 200kgate part - the XCS200 I've got Webpack software that Tony ships with the board, as well as a student version of Foundation from a book, and WARP from another book to develop with. Major integration and verification will require a full Foundation or similar software for around 3KUS$. As a nifty mini-project - it would be nice if a PDP11/40 (the KL-10 front end ) could be made to fit on a Burch board and XC2S200 part. If you're interested in CPU soft cores for fpga - check out Jan Gray's excellent site http://www.fpgacpu.org/ . Alphdata in Scotland has a PCI card with fast SSRAM and an Xilinx XRC/812E-8 perfect for a KL-10 implementation. Neil Franklin is also working on squeezing a KA-10 into an XC2S200 (same as on the Burch- using JBits) Regards,all Heinz ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck McManis" To: Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 3:49 PM Subject: Re: Allison: 2910c version of z80 > Heinz mentioned the Spartan FPGAs and Allison added: > >a nice Virtex or Spartan fpga will fit a whole processor > > >with up to 1mbit or sram on chip. > >Far more interesting, out of my range of tools to do. > >Allison > > Check again Allison. I've been playing around with a Spartan-II 200K gate > FPGA that is on a board built by Tony Burch > (and my experiences with it are here: > ). The board and some support > stuff (SRAM, Serial/Kbd/mouse ports, etc) was less than $400 and the design > tools are *free*. You do have to take the time to learn VHDL but so far the > payoff has been worth it for me. I'm having a blast with this thing. My > "final" is a PDP-8 w/ Serial terminal (think DECMate in a single chip) with > full lights and switches. This chip can do that easily. I don't think it > can do a KL-10 but it might ... > > --Chuck > > > > From bdc at world.std.com Sat May 5 22:29:18 2001 From: bdc at world.std.com (Brian Chase) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 5 May 2001, Mike Cheponis wrote: > >From Microprocessor Report, in chronological order: > 6502: 4K transistors 21 mm^2 Nice, now if I could only get enough info to implement one in TTL. :-) Silly, yes, but it would be a fun project. > 68000 68K transistors 44 mm^2 I thought this was an interesting coincidence... the 68K transistor count I mean. -brian. From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sat May 5 23:44:38 2001 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: o-scope Message-ID: <200105060444.WAA31614@calico.litterbox.com> It's not a computer, but it's surely over 10 years old... I got a scope today, a Tektronix either a 535a or 545a according to the operator's handbook in the little hidey hole in the top of the case. (which I'll gladly scan if anyone wants a copy). So I'm a 'scope newbie, does the probe impedance (13 pf) have to match the rating on the jack on the scope (47 pf) for the waves coming out of the calibration jack to be properly square? And if so, does anyone have a source for probes that work with ancient scopes like this? Also, how do I tell a 535a from a 545a? Other than the waveform distortion (at worst the square waves wind up looking like shark teeth, and at best they're a bit sloped on the leading and top edges) the scope seems to work fine as far as I can tell. Also, can anyone recommend a good book on scope use for newbies? -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sun May 6 01:33:45 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? In-Reply-To: from Brian Chase at "May 5, 1 10:29:18 pm" Message-ID: <200105060633.XAA07986@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > 68000 68K transistors 44 mm^2 > > I thought this was an interesting coincidence... the 68K transistor > count I mean. Tradition holds that the 68,000-transistor count gave the chip its name. Someone here can confirm or deny, perhaps? -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- A service of the Department of the Redundancy Department. ------------------ From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sun May 6 01:54:32 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: elm In-Reply-To: <606.525T1950T14015455optimus@canit.se> from Iggy Drougge at "May 5, 1 11:21:39 pm" Message-ID: <200105060654.XAA08052@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > OTOH, I'd never run elm or nn, not when there is pine and tin. Ugh, and ugh. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- You cannot have a science without measurement. -- R. W. Hamming ------------ From foo at siconic.com Sun May 6 01:06:13 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: eBay alert: TI 980B mini and a HUGE IBM drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 4 May 2001, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: > Just kidding :) > > But seriously, how bout an EBay posting policy... > > If someone calls dibs, nobody else on the list bids > against them... > > clint > > PS Being a peckerhead as usual :)- How about avoiding this nonsense and making things available to the list first before posting them to eBay? It sure would be much nicer. I'd hate to see ClassicCmp become a damn ad board for eBay. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Sun May 6 01:13:30 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage In-Reply-To: <200105051613.MAA02417@wordstock.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 May 2001, Bryan Pope wrote: > Canuk = Canadian, eh! > > > Americans!! grrr... next thing you will be asking "How is your igloo these > days?" > As far as I'm concerned, Canada is the 51st US State. Don't piss us off or we'll invade. :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Sun May 6 01:15:53 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: TVs Undercurrents report on JIMs computer garage/classic computer collecting, who wants to see this? In-Reply-To: <010001c0d5a6$53c0b700$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 May 2001, Claude.W wrote: > I taped the re-braodcast of this today. > > I am thinking of transfering this to a multimedia file and dumping it > somewhere, it's about 5-10 minutes and does not go indept on the "hobby" but > it's kinda fun and I think Jim has a few good "quotes" in there...about the > hobby, computers and the vintage "market".... > > Now I only have to check to see if I have something around here to transfer > this to a file... I'm certainly interested since there's probably zero chance it will air anywhere in the US. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Sun May 6 01:18:09 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage In-Reply-To: <002201c0d5c7$03861160$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 May 2001, Claude.W wrote: > > massive paring down of the collective. I need the space back, and I've > > gotten the "I never had any toys when I was young, and now I can have > > everything!" phase out of my system. Time to focus on the few machines > > that I really want. > > Thats my situation, I think I am a big kid that wants it all...but heck, > it's like that sticker I got from that RC car company - -says : "HE WHO DIES > WITH THE MOST TOYS - WINS!" There's a billboard on the 101 freeway in Mountain View out here in SillyCon Valley for E*trade that says "He who dies with the most toys is still dead." Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From claudew at videotron.ca Sun May 6 07:00:06 2001 From: claudew at videotron.ca (Claude.W) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: TVs Undercurrents report on JIMs computer garage/classic computercollecting, who wants to see this? References: Message-ID: <004c01c0d624$173219e0$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> Well. Ill will try to do, maybe Monday. I need to find something here to make a mutimedia file outta this... Oh yeah, JIM has a VCF T-Shirt on during the segment. Says GEEK in front and VCF in back. Claude ----- Original Message ----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 2:15 AM Subject: Re: TVs Undercurrents report on JIMs computer garage/classic computercollecting, who wants to see this? > On Sat, 5 May 2001, Claude.W wrote: > > > I taped the re-braodcast of this today. > > > > I am thinking of transfering this to a multimedia file and dumping it > > somewhere, it's about 5-10 minutes and does not go indept on the "hobby" but > > it's kinda fun and I think Jim has a few good "quotes" in there...about the > > hobby, computers and the vintage "market".... > > > > Now I only have to check to see if I have something around here to transfer > > this to a file... > > I'm certainly interested since there's probably zero chance it will air > anywhere in the US. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > From foxvideo at wincom.net Sun May 6 07:24:35 2001 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage In-Reply-To: References: <200105051613.MAA02417@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010506082307.00a605f0@mail.wincom.net> At 11:13 PM 05/05/2001 -0700, you wrote: >As far as I'm concerned, Canada is the 51st US State. Don't piss us off >or we'll invade. > >:) > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org Come on up anytime, Sellam. Bring your US dollars but please leave your guns at home. Regards Charlie Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor ON N8Y 3J8 foxvideo@wincom.net Check out: Camcorder Kindergarten at http://chasfoxvideo.com From harrison at timharrison.com Sun May 6 09:30:33 2001 From: harrison at timharrison.com (Tim Harrison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage References: <200105051613.MAA02417@wordstock.com> <01050519240201.00787@fatty> Message-ID: <3AF56009.2355B2ED@timharrison.com> Brian Roth wrote: > Didn't really mean anything by it. I live 10 min from the border. I'm well > familiar with the term, I was just wondering if it had a real meaning besides > slang. http://ntas.nscc.sccd.ctc.edu/chaseplace/claslink/Canuck..htm (yes there's a double dot in there). I'm not sure which opinion I support in that, but I'm more inclined to go with the "quelle canule" as the original statement that started it all. > OK, next question. Whats a Hab? "Hab" is a reference to "habitant", a French term from the early part of the century and before. Quebec farmers were called "habitants". "Habs" was then used to refer to the French team members of the Montreal Canadiens hockey club. From what I've seen, the H in the Canadiens' logo is not for "habitant" but part of "Club de Hockey Canadien", the official name of the team from 1917 on, after it was changed from Canadian Athletic Club, the original name in 1909. -- Tim Harrison Network Engineer harrison@timharrison.com http://www.networklevel.com/ From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun May 6 10:07:33 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: Fwd: Classic Computer Collection Message-ID: Here's an email I received this morning that I thought I"d pass on. If interested, please reply to the original sender. Jeff >Status: U >From: "gen" >To: >Subject: Classic Computer Collection >Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 15:44:58 +0100 >X-Priority: 3 > >Hi there > >I got your email address from the internet. > >I have a substantial collection of 'antique' computers, mostly 'first >editions' of systems such as Apple, IBM, Sirius, Apricot, Macintosh, Epson, >etc. These are not old and used, they are in pristine condition in their >original boxes with manuals, software & literature. In particular I have an >original Mac (128), 512K, MacPlus, 1st Mac II, Apple //e, //c, software, >collectables, etc. >Would you know of anyone interested in buying any of these items? I am >based in the UK. > >Regards -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From fernande at internet1.net Sun May 6 10:22:30 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: eBay alert: TI 980B mini and a HUGE IBM drive References: Message-ID: <3AF56C36.C84C43B7@internet1.net> I think your worrying to much Sellam. Besides, if someone wants to put something on Ebay then they are going to put it on Ebay, and it won't be posted here at all. If I'm looking for a Bebop model 10, I would rather someone let me know one was on Ebay, than not know at all. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Sellam Ismail wrote: > How about avoiding this nonsense and making things available to the list > first before posting them to eBay? It sure would be much nicer. I'd hate > to see ClassicCmp become a damn ad board for eBay. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From fernande at internet1.net Sun May 6 10:45:58 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: Fwd: Classic Computer Collection References: Message-ID: <3AF571B6.DDCDA94E@internet1.net> Hasn't this been sent to other people on the list, and then was posted here? It sounds very familair to me. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Jeff Hellige wrote: > > Here's an email I received this morning that I thought I"d > pass on. If interested, please reply to the original sender. > > Jeff > > >Status: U > >From: "gen" > >To: > >Subject: Classic Computer Collection > >Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 15:44:58 +0100 > >X-Priority: 3 > > > >Hi there > > > >I got your email address from the internet. > > > >I have a substantial collection of 'antique' computers, mostly 'first > >editions' of systems such as Apple, IBM, Sirius, Apricot, Macintosh, Epson, > >etc. These are not old and used, they are in pristine condition in their > >original boxes with manuals, software & literature. In particular I have an > >original Mac (128), 512K, MacPlus, 1st Mac II, Apple //e, //c, software, > >collectables, etc. > >Would you know of anyone interested in buying any of these items? I am > >based in the UK. > > > >Regards > > -- > Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net Sun May 6 13:04:15 2001 From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (Sue & Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Collection References: Message-ID: <002201c0d657$02e78500$0264640a@mediaone.net> I received it too And to me too it sounds very familiar Francois > Here's an email I received this morning that I thought I"d > pass on. If interested, please reply to the original sender. > > Jeff > > >Status: U > >From: "gen" > >To: > >Subject: Classic Computer Collection > >Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 15:44:58 +0100 > >X-Priority: 3 > > > >Hi there > > > >I got your email address from the internet. > > > >I have a substantial collection of 'antique' computers, mostly 'first > >editions' of systems such as Apple, IBM, Sirius, Apricot, Macintosh, Epson, > >etc. These are not old and used, they are in pristine condition in their > >original boxes with manuals, software & literature. In particular I have an > >original Mac (128), 512K, MacPlus, 1st Mac II, Apple //e, //c, software, > >collectables, etc. > >Would you know of anyone interested in buying any of these items? I am > >based in the UK. > > > >Regards > > -- > Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 6 11:14:34 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? References: Message-ID: <001d01c0d647$a3b45360$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Real data is nice, but I find it odd that the 6502 shows up with so much more die size when the transistor count matches the 6800 so closely. The Z80, and 6502 were both presumably built with more or less the same design rules, and, as one might expect, the 6800 and 6502 should have approximately the same transistor count, having approximately the same internal resources. Note how the figure for the 8085 tracks the Z80 figure, scaled back for the fact it (the 8085) lacks the alternate register set, approximately. I don't trust the indicated die-size, however, since, back in '76, when the 650x series was new, it was reputed to have the smallest die size of any of the then-current 8-bit CPU's. After all, that's how they (MOS Technology) bought their market share. Everything seems to fit, with the exception of that die size figure in this case. The 8008 was a couple of generations earlier than the 8085, but the 8085, 6502, and Z80 were all built in the same geometry. The 8080 and 6800 were both about the same generation, hence also built in the same design rules and geometry. Note that the 1802 die is bigger, being a CMOS device. The die size for the 68K also seems to match what I remember of the die that was glued to my datasheet at that sales pitch I mentioned in an earlier post. Keep in mind, however, that the area was 1/4 that of the previous generation, as there had been a halving of the drawn channel widths. While I believe that the transistor count may have been more of a marketing ploy than a reliable count, if you take into consideration the relatively large register size and count contained in the 68K and combine that with the substantially smaller geometry in which it was fabricated, it seems to match up with the majority of the remaining figures. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Cheponis" To: Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 11:19 AM Subject: Re: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? > From Microprocessor Report, in chronological order: > > 8008: 3.5K transistors 14 mm^2 > 6800: 4.1K transistors 16 mm^2 > 8080: 4.8K transistors 20 mm^2 > 1802: 5K transistors 27 mm^2 > 6502: 4K transistors 21 mm^2 > Z80: 8.5K transistors 18 mm^2 > 8085: 6.5K transistors 20 mm^2 > 8086: 29K transistors 33 mm^2 > 8088: 29K transistors 33 mm^2 > Z8001 17.5K transistors 39 mm^2 > 68000 68K transistors 44 mm^2 > 6809: 9K transistors 21 mm^2 > > > I really hate to interrupt this group's speculation with actual data, but > I'm weird in that way. > > -Mike > > > On Sat, 5 May 2001, Sipke de Wal wrote: > > > Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 16:34:41 +0200 > > From: Sipke de Wal > > Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? > > > > I tend to trust the 4000 number more also........ > > > > Especially since the source article that gives 9000 transistors > > for the 6502 has a few other flaws. most strikingly..... > > > > ...... naming the Z80 as the host of CP/M where that clearly should > > have been the 8080. That the Z80 is downward compatible is > > nice but the native CP/M assembler was an 8080 assembler not > > a Z80 assembler. > > > > Sipke de Wal > > ------------------------------------------------ > > http://xgistor.ath.cx > > ------------------------------------------------ > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Richard Erlacher > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 4:20 PM > > Subject: Re: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? > > > > > > > While I don't know what the "real" numbers are, I'm inclined to believe this > > > (4000) number, at least relative to the others just based on the internal > > > resources. > > > > > > > > > > > From djg at drs-esg.com Sun May 6 11:23:23 2001 From: djg at drs-esg.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: o-scope Message-ID: <200105061623.MAA02229@drs-esg.com> From: Jim Strickland >So I'm a 'scope newbie, does the probe impedance (13 pf) have to match the >rating on the jack on the scope (47 pf) for the waves coming out of the >calibration jack to be properly square? And if so, does anyone have a source >for probes that work with ancient scopes like this? > Most probes can be adjusted to work with a range of capacitance, they normally have a little adjustment hole at the end that attaches to the scope. Adjust it for the flattest trace. >Also, how do I tell a 535a from a 545a? > Look above the CRT and see if it says TYPE 535 or TYPE 545? I assume this is a big old tube scope, if not ignore the rest. >From Oscilloscopes, Selecting and Restoring a Classic by Stan Griffiths the 535A is 15MHz bandpass 5MHz trigger. 545A 33 MHz bandpass 5 MHz trigger. Bandpass may be less depending on what plugin is installed. I have a 547 (50 MHz bandpass and trigger) which I use to maintain my PDP-8's. Mine is a nice scopes but can be a little temperamental. Depending on what you are using it for the limited bandwidth (especially trigger) may be an issue. David Gesswein http://www.pdp8.net/ -- Run an old computer with blinkenlights From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 6 11:28:10 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: Allison: 2910c version of z80 References: <013301c0d5be$da102e90$ba749a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <003b01c0d649$8a5bc2c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Sadly, the Xilinx 3000-series, my own stock of which was purchased in '90 or so, when the smaller ones cost $300 or so each, have been orphaned in favor of a later generation, which XILINX also would like to have go away, in favor of their current stuff. The current software doesn't support the plain 3000-series, though it does still support the architecture in the form of the 3000A and 3100 series. My old XACT tools unfortunately don't support it either, however, as the tools I bought only went through the 2K series. I've been unable to find the dongle for that, however, though I don't miss it. The OS under which the XILINX tools seem to run best, at least according to their tech support folks, is Win98, though they claim it runs just as well under NT4. I see essentially no difference, myself. There are new tools for LINUX, by the way, though I don't know how well they work or are supported at XILINX. They are VERY generous with support, however, once you've bought into their tools, even though I only bought the cheapest set. I'd not be afraid to give the SPARTAN series a try for building an experimental version of a '70's-'80's generation CPU. They are relatively (choke) inexpensive and available in versions with sufficient on-board RAM that you might not need the higher pin counts required to interface external memory. Unfortunately, the high-pin-count parts are hard to prototype. The solution is to go to a gun show and buy a pistol, then stop at the local liquor store to make a withdrawal. Then you'll be able to afford the prototyping sockets, normally costing $400-500 or so when built onto a wire-wrap-compatible adapter. Life is easier when one simply uses the 84-pin PLCC versions. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "ajp166" To: Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 5:50 PM Subject: Re: Allison: 2910c version of z80 > From: Chuck McManis > > > >tools are *free*. You do have to take the time to learn VHDL but so far > the > > >payoff has been worth it for me. I'm having a blast with this thing. My > > > VHDL.... that was the cost I refer to. Most of me design experience > is pre VHDL availbility. I already have the Lattice Synario and that > bends my mind greatly. I havent used the small 2064 and 3030 FPGAs > I have a good handful of yet. Time is costly for me these days. > > >"final" is a PDP-8 w/ Serial terminal (think DECMate in a single chip) > with > >full lights and switches. This chip can do that easily. I don't think it > > > Major cool. My personal "I'd like to do" is a 32 bit wide '8 by grafting > another 20 bits to the right side of the word and running it fast. Same > instrcution set and the left 5 bits would remain the same. I'd use all > 32 bits for OPR instructions to eliminate decoding (one per bit) and > simplify the IOT interface some. Obviously the page (formerly 128 > words) would be much bigger but direct addressing of 256MW > out of a 4gb address space wouldn't be a significant shortcomming. > I doubt I'd need to do the EMA. ;) > > Allison > > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun May 6 11:40:03 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: o-scope Message-ID: <016101c0d64b$430869d0$ba749a8d@ajp166> From: Jim Strickland >So I'm a 'scope newbie, does the probe impedance (13 pf) have to match the >rating on the jack on the scope (47 pf) for the waves coming out of the >calibration jack to be properly square? And if so, does anyone have a source >for probes that work with ancient scopes like this? No not required to match. That specification is the capacitance presented across the input jack along with the scopes input resistance (usually 1megohm). Most scope probes have an adjustment to compensate for this and therefor it's not a problem. >Other than the waveform distortion (at worst the square waves wind up looking >like shark teeth, and at best they're a bit sloped on the leading and top >edges) the scope seems to work fine as far as I can tell. Probe compensation is off or the amplifier (vertical) are misadjusted internally. A square wave on that series should look square. Allison From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 6 11:39:13 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: Allison: 2910c version of z80 and FPGAs - a little O/T References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010505124457.02431370@208.226.86.10> <029601c0d5d5$41ffb000$3992a8c0@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <004101c0d64b$15a378e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> There's been so much unwarranted (IMHO) skepticism about the ability to transfer a solid DEC CPU design into CPLD/FPGA that I'd really like to see someone try it. The DEC folks didn't often do the wierd things that make circuits act squirrely when the technology is changed, and a bit of forward-thinking synchronous strategy applied to the older asynchronous designs could probably fix the older designs so they'd work fine in current technology, and probably MUCH faster. I'm not interested in DEC stuff myself, but the fact that there are several manufacturers making logical equivalents of the DEC CPU's today suggests that it's not as difficult as one might think. Implementing an instruction set in programmable logic isn't terribly difficult, aside from the discipline issues. If you (1) stay in the chair, (2) stick to the original target, and (3) accept (don't fight) the necessary compromises (it's hard to accept 25 MHz operation from a device that you thought should yield 150), you'll get it done. Once the design is entered, simulated, synthesized, simulated and tested as implemented, there's room for fixes. The main problem is that since you can't stick a 'scope or LA probe into the circuit, you have to rely on the simulator. That's not always easy. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Heinz Wolter" To: Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 8:35 PM Subject: Re: Allison: 2910c version of z80 and FPGAs - a little O/T > Chuck, interesting you should mention the Burch kit...and > the PDP10 in the same message! I'm using my Burch- > board( a wonderful product at a great price- good work Tony!) > to debug bits and pieces of my KL-10 fpga design. So far I've > only got the 36bit alu, IR, MAR/MDR, CC muxes(the easy parts) > and am reverse engineering the rest from the KS-10 and KL-10 > microcode. You can do a lot with even a 200kgate part - the XCS200 > I've got Webpack software that Tony ships with the board, as well as a > student version of Foundation from a book, and WARP from > another book to develop with. Major integration and verification > will require a full Foundation or similar software for around 3KUS$. > As a nifty mini-project - it would be nice if a PDP11/40 (the KL-10 > front end ) could be made to fit on a Burch board and XC2S200 part. > If you're interested in CPU soft cores for fpga - check out Jan Gray's > excellent site http://www.fpgacpu.org/ . Alphdata in Scotland has a PCI card > with > fast SSRAM and an Xilinx XRC/812E-8 perfect for a KL-10 implementation. > Neil Franklin is also working on squeezing a KA-10 into an XC2S200 > (same as on the Burch- using JBits) > Regards,all > Heinz > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chuck McManis" > To: > Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 3:49 PM > Subject: Re: Allison: 2910c version of z80 > > > > Heinz mentioned the Spartan FPGAs and Allison added: > > >a nice Virtex or Spartan fpga will fit a whole processor > > > >with up to 1mbit or sram on chip. > > >Far more interesting, out of my range of tools to do. > > >Allison > > > > Check again Allison. I've been playing around with a Spartan-II 200K gate > > FPGA that is on a board built by Tony Burch > > (and my experiences with it are here: > > ). The board and some support > > stuff (SRAM, Serial/Kbd/mouse ports, etc) was less than $400 and the > design > > tools are *free*. You do have to take the time to learn VHDL but so far > the > > payoff has been worth it for me. I'm having a blast with this thing. My > > "final" is a PDP-8 w/ Serial terminal (think DECMate in a single chip) > with > > full lights and switches. This chip can do that easily. I don't think it > > can do a KL-10 but it might ... > > > > --Chuck > > > > > > > > > > From ip500 at home.com Sun May 6 11:43:01 2001 From: ip500 at home.com (ip500) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:04 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? References: <001d01c0d647$a3b45360$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3AF57F15.46DD6B69@home.com> Speaking of die size and # of transistors packed onto a chip .... In a batch of other interesting stuff I received an odd looking camera reduction system. Looks a good bit like a 1920's Photographers "View" camera. Used 4" X 5" Ferroxoplates. It [unlike the 20's version] is built entirely of metal [heavy --about 25 pounds]. It is supposed to have been used to reduce chip drawings down to actual production die size. No name anywhere .. almost looks to be lab or shop built. I've posted a couple of pix at: http://members.home.net/ip500/chipmain.JPG http://members.home.net/ip500/chipart.JPG http://members.home.net/ip500/chipback.JPG The second picture is of the only exposed "plate" that came with the system. Third pix showing the back and partial interior is interesting in that the plate is held to the back by vacuum. A hose runs out the back and the vacuum acts through tiny channels milled into the back of the camera. Any thoughts or comments appreciated. NO APPRAISELS are solicited! Thanks, Craig Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Real data is nice, but I find it odd that the 6502 shows up with so much more > die size when the transistor count matches the 6800 so closely. The Z80, and > 6502 were both presumably built with more or less the same design rules, and, as > one might expect, the 6800 and 6502 should have approximately the same > transistor count, having approximately the same internal resources. Note how > the figure for the 8085 tracks the Z80 figure, scaled back for the fact it (the > 8085) lacks the alternate register set, approximately. I don't trust the > indicated die-size, however, since, back in '76, when the 650x series was new, > it was reputed to have the smallest die size of any of the then-current 8-bit > CPU's. After all, that's how they (MOS Technology) bought their market share. > Everything seems to fit, with the exception of that die size figure in this > case. > > The 8008 was a couple of generations earlier than the 8085, but the 8085, 6502, > and Z80 were all built in the same geometry. The 8080 and 6800 were both about > the same generation, hence also built in the same design rules and geometry. > Note that the 1802 die is bigger, being a CMOS device. > > The die size for the 68K also seems to match what I remember of the die that was > glued to my datasheet at that sales pitch I mentioned in an earlier post. Keep > in mind, however, that the area was 1/4 that of the previous generation, as > there had been a halving of the drawn channel widths. While I believe that the > transistor count may have been more of a marketing ploy than a reliable count, > if you take into consideration the relatively large register size and count > contained in the 68K and combine that with the substantially smaller geometry in > which it was fabricated, it seems to match up with the majority of the remaining > figures. > > Dick > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun May 6 11:46:16 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? Message-ID: <017c01c0d64c$1b151940$ba749a8d@ajp166> From: Brian Chase >Nice, now if I could only get enough info to implement one in TTL. :-) >Silly, yes, but it would be a fun project. Well you know the timing, instruction set, internal organization and register set... what else do you need? Granted VHDL would be nice but the internal circuit schmatics as built are anything but TTL. The biggest difference from the mos version going ttl would likely result in is a static register cells instead of dynamic making the result fully stopable. Allison From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 6 11:48:09 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? References: Message-ID: <004f01c0d64c$56e54b20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I doubt it was really 68K transistors. If you multiply out the number of transistors needed to implement the registers and counters, then add 50% for the ALU and double the whole thing for the control logic, you'll probably have as good a count. Keep in mind that gate counts can be manipulated quite a bit by the marketing guys. When you're building a gate, you can build a transistor with two emitters. That functions as an AND gate. If you need a 3-input AND gate, however, though it can be built with just another emitter the marketing guys will tell you it's actually three AND gates. Transistor counts are probably not that important. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Chase" To: Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 9:29 PM Subject: Re: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? > On Sat, 5 May 2001, Mike Cheponis wrote: > > > >From Microprocessor Report, in chronological order: > > > 6502: 4K transistors 21 mm^2 > > Nice, now if I could only get enough info to implement one in TTL. :-) > Silly, yes, but it would be a fun project. > > > 68000 68K transistors 44 mm^2 > > I thought this was an interesting coincidence... the 68K transistor > count I mean. > > -brian. > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 6 11:51:49 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: o-scope References: <200105060444.WAA31614@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <005501c0d64c$d870bee0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> One of my friends discarded a TEK 535, cart, and about 15 plug-ins last week when he closed his 40-year-old shop. I didn't have room, and he didn't either. The local surplus dealer didn't want it either, even as a gift. That 13pf is the capacitance, and the inputs present 1 Megohm impedance, IIRC. You can tell the model number from the printing on the front of the oscilloscope, unless it's worn off. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Strickland" To: "classiccmp" Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 10:44 PM Subject: o-scope > It's not a computer, but it's surely over 10 years old... > > I got a scope today, a Tektronix either a 535a or 545a according to the > operator's handbook in the little hidey hole in the top of the case. (which > I'll gladly scan if anyone wants a copy). > > So I'm a 'scope newbie, does the probe impedance (13 pf) have to match the > rating on the jack on the scope (47 pf) for the waves coming out of the > calibration jack to be properly square? And if so, does anyone have a source > for probes that work with ancient scopes like this? > > Also, how do I tell a 535a from a 545a? > > Other than the waveform distortion (at worst the square waves wind up looking > like shark teeth, and at best they're a bit sloped on the leading and top > edges) the scope seems to work fine as far as I can tell. > > Also, can anyone recommend a good book on scope use for newbies? > -- > Jim Strickland > jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > BeOS Powered! > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 6 11:52:59 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? References: <200105060633.XAA07986@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <005b01c0d64d$01d2ec40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Though it could have been based on an estimate, the chip name/number, was conjured up long before there could have been an accurate transistor count. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 12:33 AM Subject: Re: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? > > > 68000 68K transistors 44 mm^2 > > > > I thought this was an interesting coincidence... the 68K transistor > > count I mean. > > Tradition holds that the 68,000-transistor count gave the chip its name. > Someone here can confirm or deny, perhaps? > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- A service of the Department of the Redundancy Department. ------------------ > > From cfandt at netsync.net Sun May 6 11:57:25 2001 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: o-scope In-Reply-To: <200105060444.WAA31614@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20010506120458.038a53d0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 10:44 PM 5/5/01 -0600, Jim Strickland said something like: >It's not a computer, but it's surely over 10 years old... > >I got a scope today, a Tektronix either a 535a or 545a according to the >operator's handbook in the little hidey hole in the top of the case. (which >I'll gladly scan if anyone wants a copy). > >So I'm a 'scope newbie, does the probe impedance (13 pf) have to match the >rating on the jack on the scope (47 pf) for the waves coming out of the >calibration jack to be properly square? And if so, does anyone have a source >for probes that work with ancient scopes like this? > >Also, how do I tell a 535a from a 545a? Well Jim, the markings at the top of the front panel above the CRT show the model number. This should be the case and I've never seen or heard of anything different on TEK scopes. -And I've been a TEK collector/enthusiast/user for _decades_. As for studying how to care, use and feed these wonderful pieces of engineering, please go to this URL: http://www.reprise.com/host/tektronix/home/default.asp -and rumage around. It has much of what you (or anyone, BTW) need to begin understanding TEK scopes in general. > >Other than the waveform distortion (at worst the square waves wind up looking >like shark teeth, and at best they're a bit sloped on the leading and top >edges) the scope seems to work fine as far as I can tell. > >Also, can anyone recommend a good book on scope use for newbies? Check the above site. It has a basic use section. Doesn't have pictures of the 535 or 545* scopes, but you'd know the model from the front panel ID. I don't have a scanner at this time, otherwise I'd put up scans from my 535 and 545B manuals. Look at this page for a bit of Heaven :-) (IMO) http://www.vaxxine.com/phil/scopes/stan-g.htm Have fun learning with it Jim. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From lgwalker at look.ca Sun May 6 11:04:11 2001 From: lgwalker at look.ca (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage In-Reply-To: References: <200105051613.MAA02417@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <3AF53DBB.31356.3825D4C@localhost> That seems to be what Dubya thinks too. Just remember what happened the last time the US invaded us in 1812. We also have a secret weapon. US society is riddled with Canadians in high places. As well, our cold weather kills off the weak ones early, yanks wouldn't last a week fighting a war in a blizzard. Minnisotans might be more of a problem but we could always bribe them with hockey players. And for this insult we're cutting back exports of power to California and New York. Happy brown-out. Larry > On Sat, 5 May 2001, Bryan Pope wrote: > > > Canuk = Canadian, eh! > > > > > > Americans!! grrr... next thing you will be asking "How is your igloo these > > days?" > > As far as I'm concerned, Canada is the 51st US State. Don't piss us off > or we'll invade. > > :) > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > Reply to: lgwalker@look.ca From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 6 12:06:03 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? References: <017c01c0d64c$1b151940$ba749a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <007301c0d64e$d51fd440$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> If you are determined to build a TTL 650x core, you can start with a pair of 74S219's (non-inverting 74S189's) in which to accomodate the registers, with the obvious exception of the processor status, which requires it be discretely implemented but shadowed in the register RAM. If you have PCL, PCH, X, Y, A, SP, a flag shadow and an impending operand (to catch the data bus input), that will use up half the space. If you then keep the address bus in a couple of additional locations, so you can get into and out of sequence from the PC, you will, once you've studied the MOS Technology hardware reference, easily see how the device works. Keep in mind that by using two tristate buses you can route data from the tristate RAM to the ALU inputs quite easily. Also, if you consider that the clock phases easily support using the ALU to do the address arithmetic as well as operand arithmetic, you'll see why the chip was so small. If you use tristate multiplexers to accomplish the various shifts and rotates, and use a set of XORs to make an adder-subtractor from a pair of '283's, you'll have most of the workings. The rest is a pair of one-hot sequencers to concatenate the logic paths through the ALU on each clock phase. have fun! Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "ajp166" To: Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 10:46 AM Subject: Re: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? > From: Brian Chase > > > >Nice, now if I could only get enough info to implement one in TTL. :-) > >Silly, yes, but it would be a fun project. > > > Well you know the timing, instruction set, internal organization > and register set... what else do you need? Granted VHDL would > be nice but the internal circuit schmatics as built are anything > but TTL. > > The biggest difference from the mos version going ttl would > likely result in is a static register cells instead of dynamic > making the result fully stopable. > > Allison > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun May 6 12:15:39 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: Allison: 2910c version of z80 Message-ID: <018501c0d650$4ebc1290$ba749a8d@ajp166> From: Richard Erlacher >3000A and 3100 series. My old XACT tools unfortunately don't support it either, >however, as the tools I bought only went through the 2K series. I've been >unable to find the dongle for that, however, though I don't miss it. The copy of XACT and earlier tools I can use for the 2064s runs fine on dos wothout a dongle. >The OS under which the XILINX tools seem to run best, at least according to >their tech support folks, is Win98, though they claim it runs just as well under >NT4. I see essentially no difference, myself. There are new tools for LINUX, I've run Synario under W95 and WinNT4 without problems. >by the way, though I don't know how well they work or are supported at XILINX. >They are VERY generous with support, however, once you've bought into their >tools, even though I only bought the cheapest set. Yes, they are good but not so cheap. >I'd not be afraid to give the SPARTAN series a try for building an experimental >version of a '70's-'80's generation CPU. They are relatively (choke) >inexpensive and available in versions with sufficient on-board RAM that you >might not need the higher pin counts required to interface external memory. >Unfortunately, the high-pin-count parts are hard to prototype. The real problem is making/buying a protobaord for the high pin count, that and time to actually do it. I know there are plenty of parts out ther that can and many different tools. Allison From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun May 6 11:58:02 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: eBay alert: TI 980B mini and a HUGE IBM drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >How about avoiding this nonsense and making things available to the list >first before posting them to eBay? It sure would be much nicer. I'd hate >to see ClassicCmp become a damn ad board for eBay. In case you haven't noticed this could be easily known as the classic cheapskate computer list, which I of course am proud to be a member of. ;) I don't want to see ebay ads here either, EXCEPT for anything genuinely unusual, then I would like to know about it, call dibs and have the rest of you not bid. ;) From emu at ecubics.com Sun May 6 12:19:02 2001 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: Allison: 2910c version of z80 References: <013301c0d5be$da102e90$ba749a8d@ajp166> <003b01c0d649$8a5bc2c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3AF58786.959BB9C4@ecubics.com> Sorry Richard, I have to jump in here ;-) Richard Erlacher wrote: > > I'd not be afraid to give the SPARTAN series a try for building an experimental > version of a '70's-'80's generation CPU. They are relatively (choke) > inexpensive $20 for the xcs10, plcc84 package. What did you pay for your 3k gates 3030 before ? > and available in versions with sufficient on-board RAM that you > might not need the higher pin counts required to interface external memory. > Unfortunately, the high-pin-count parts are hard to prototype. There really many prototype boards out there. And cheap ones ... > The solution is to go to a gun show and buy a pistol, then stop at the local > liquor store to make a withdrawal. Student license is $100 & the small prototype board around $150. Still much cheaper than a good gun ;-) > Then you'll be able to afford the > prototyping sockets, normally costing $400-500 or so when built onto a > wire-wrap-compatible adapter. Life is easier when one simply uses the 84-pin > PLCC versions. Cheers From claudew at videotron.ca Sun May 6 12:21:34 2001 From: claudew at videotron.ca (Claude.W) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage References: <200105051613.MAA02417@wordstock.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20010506082307.00a605f0@mail.wincom.net> Message-ID: <008501c0d651$000cae60$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> Yes, please check your guns at the border... I deal a lot with US people and when they visit Montreal they always have statements like: "What are all these people doing walking the downtown streets at 10:00 - 11:00 PM at night?...I guess its not dangerous...".... Well, no it's not dangerous....and Montreal is a big place.... Some americans say it's very much like SanFrancisco..."Live and let live".... Yes, nice place US -- except for all the guns... Claude > > >As far as I'm concerned, Canada is the 51st US State. Don't piss us off > >or we'll invade. > > > >:) > > > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > Come on up anytime, Sellam. Bring your US dollars but please leave > your guns at home. > > > Regards > > Charlie Fox > Chas E. Fox Video Productions > 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor ON N8Y 3J8 > foxvideo@wincom.net > Check out: > Camcorder Kindergarten at http://chasfoxvideo.com > From sipke at wxs.nl Sun May 6 12:30:08 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? References: <004f01c0d64c$56e54b20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <033e01c0d652$33e23920$030101ac@boll.casema.net> That's a valid assumption for TTL but not for NMOS PMOS! And CMOS actually needs roughly the double amount of transistors I've never heard of mos-multi-emitter-transistors Sipke de Wal ------------------------------------------------------ http://xgistor.ath.cx ------------------------------------------------------ ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Erlacher To: Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 6:48 PM Subject: Re: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? > I doubt it was really 68K transistors. If you multiply out the number of > transistors needed to implement the registers and counters, then add 50% for the > ALU and double the whole thing for the control logic, you'll probably have as > good a count. > > Keep in mind that gate counts can be manipulated quite a bit by the marketing > guys. When you're building a gate, you can build a transistor with two > emitters. That functions as an AND gate. If you need a 3-input AND gate, > however, though it can be built with just another emitter the marketing guys > will tell you it's actually three AND gates. Transistor counts are probably not > that important. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brian Chase" > To: > Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 9:29 PM > Subject: Re: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? > > > > On Sat, 5 May 2001, Mike Cheponis wrote: > > > > > >From Microprocessor Report, in chronological order: > > > > > 6502: 4K transistors 21 mm^2 > > > > Nice, now if I could only get enough info to implement one in TTL. :-) > > Silly, yes, but it would be a fun project. > > > > > 68000 68K transistors 44 mm^2 > > > > I thought this was an interesting coincidence... the 68K transistor > > count I mean. > > > > -brian. > > > > > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun May 6 12:36:45 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: XiLinx XC40xx-PC84 In-Reply-To: <003b01c0d649$8a5bc2c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <013301c0d5be$da102e90$ba749a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: >Sadly, the Xilinx 3000-series, my own stock of which was purchased in '90 >or so, >when the smaller ones cost $300 or so each, have been orphaned in favor of a I mentioned this to the list last Summer, but events in the family caught me up and I didn't follow up, so here it is again. ;) I found a dozen or so Xilinx protoboards, size of a punch card half of it open, 2 digit display, couple buttons, some kind of serial looking connection, runs off a 9v battery, big socket in the middle with a square chip in it of the same name. XiLinx XC40xx-PC84 the device being a XC4003A -5. Who wants one for $5 and shipping, on the condition they figure out what it is and report back? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun May 6 12:40:19 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? In-Reply-To: <005b01c0d64d$01d2ec40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <200105060633.XAA07986@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: >Though it could have been based on an estimate, the chip name/number, was >conjured up long before there could have been an accurate transistor count. My guess is that 68000 as a name had a lot to do with adding a zero to 6800. From fernande at internet1.net Sun May 6 12:51:39 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: For Trade: PDP-11/23 References: <3AF2C1FE.42560AB5@pnl.gov> Message-ID: <3AF58F2B.49F515CD@internet1.net> How does the base of the case look? Mine is cracked, and I would like to possibly replace it. Although, I am trying to locate the items to rack mount mine, I would still like to have the versatility. Also a list of the cards would be great.... and where are you located? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Norm Anheier wrote: > > I have a PDP-11/23 in a BA-23 enclosure (for example see: > http://www.telnet.hu/hamster/pdp-11/kepek/updp1123.jpg). I rescued this > from a recycler. Anyone interested in this, I don't collect full > systems -- yet! I am willing to part this out if you need something > specific. Unfortunately the case is cracked and the front and back > bezels and the processor and coprocessor chips are gone. Everything > else is there. I have no idea what components are functional. It would > be great if someone has some use for this, otherwise its going back to > the recycler. Any trades for oldprocessor chips would be appreciated. > > Also, I frequently see old minicomputers, such as the PDP-11 at the > scrapyard. I have no idea what is common and what is on everyones most > wanted list. Anyone have any pointers to such a "most wanted list"? > > Thanks Norm From foo at siconic.com Sun May 6 11:58:19 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: eBay alert: TI 980B mini and a HUGE IBM drive In-Reply-To: <3AF56C36.C84C43B7@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 May 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > I think your worrying to much Sellam. Besides, if someone wants to put > something on Ebay then they are going to put it on Ebay, and it won't be Which would be preferable. > posted here at all. If I'm looking for a Bebop model 10, I would rather > someone let me know one was on Ebay, than not know at all. It's called a "search" ;) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Sun May 6 12:01:38 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage In-Reply-To: <3AF53DBB.31356.3825D4C@localhost> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 May 2001, Lawrence Walker wrote: > That seems to be what Dubya thinks too. Just remember what happened > the last time the US invaded us in 1812. We also have a secret weapon. US > society is riddled with Canadians in high places. > As well, our cold weather kills off the weak ones early, yanks wouldn't last > a week fighting a war in a blizzard. Minnisotans might be more of a problem > but we could always bribe them with hockey players. We have Alaskans, although they're so far north those traitorous bastards might take allegiance with BC :) > And for this insult we're cutting back exports of power to California > and New York. Happy brown-out. It doesn't affect me. I'm on the same power grid as Lawrence Livermore National Labs, and they always get power despite what may be going on in the greater SF Bay Area. Ha ha ;) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Sun May 6 12:05:46 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: eBay alert: TI 980B mini and a HUGE IBM drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 6 May 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > >How about avoiding this nonsense and making things available to the list > >first before posting them to eBay? It sure would be much nicer. I'd hate > >to see ClassicCmp become a damn ad board for eBay. > > In case you haven't noticed this could be easily known as the classic > cheapskate computer list, which I of course am proud to be a member of. ;) Aren't we all? And isn't that why we collect classic computers in the first place, because we couldn't afford them when they were new? > I don't want to see ebay ads here either, EXCEPT for anything > genuinely unusual, then I would like to know about it, call dibs and > have the rest of you not bid. ;) I don't care if someone points out an odd auction here or there, but I do object to people using CC to advertise eBay ads. That's what the search function is for. If you want to advertise on CC, it should be to solicit offers directly. I want to say something here that includes the word "carpetbagger" but I'm afraid it would be too incendiary. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Sun May 6 12:07:29 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage In-Reply-To: <008501c0d651$000cae60$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 May 2001, Claude.W wrote: > Yes, please check your guns at the border... > > I deal a lot with US people and when they visit Montreal they always have > statements like: > > "What are all these people doing walking the downtown streets at 10:00 - > 11:00 PM at night?...I guess its not dangerous...".... > > Well, no it's not dangerous....and Montreal is a big place.... > > Some americans say it's very much like SanFrancisco..."Live and let > live".... > > Yes, nice place US -- except for all the guns... England doesn't allow guns, and look at the mess they're in. Guns kill plenty of people, sure. But stupid ideologies kill even more. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Sun May 6 13:14:38 2001 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0007A264@BUSH02> >I've never heard of mos-multi-emitter-transistors Just etch multiple mos structures and have a common gate. Tie drains and sources as required. Lee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The information contained in this email may contain information which is confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. ________________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses, by Star Internet, delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit: http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp From fernande at internet1.net Sun May 6 13:25:10 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: eBay alert: TI 980B mini and a HUGE IBM drive References: Message-ID: <3AF59706.9DCF9298@internet1.net> Sellam, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > On Sun, 6 May 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > > I think your worrying to much Sellam. Besides, if someone wants to put > > something on Ebay then they are going to put it on Ebay, and it won't be > > Which would be preferable. Maybe you get all the cool stuff offered to you everyday by your neighbors, but the pickens are quite thin around here. > > > posted here at all. If I'm looking for a Bebop model 10, I would rather > > someone let me know one was on Ebay, than not know at all. > > It's called a "search" ;) Yes, but searches don't pick up everything. Occasionally, when I am browsing, I find stuff that I search for, on a regular basis, but it didn't come up in my search. The seller either didn't spell something correctly, or put it in the wrong category, or added a space in between characters or something. It's nice if I am the only person to find it, but it isn't nice if I can't find it either! Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Sun May 6 13:28:42 2001 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: XiLinx XC40xx-PC84 Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0007A265@BUSH02> > I found a dozen or so Xilinx protoboards, size of a punch card half of it > open, 2 digit display, couple buttons, some kind of serial looking > connection, runs off a 9v battery, big socket in the middle > with a square chip in it of the same name. It's an XC4003A demo board and it came with tools, demo projects and a cable to hook it to your PC to program it. The idea was you could see how easy FPGA use was and then you'd buy 1000s of them for your next project. I have the chip datasheet, it's available from freetradezone.com > Who wants one for $5 and shipping, on the condition they figure out what it > is and report back? Do I qualify for the $5 card? 8^)= Lee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The information contained in this email may contain information which is confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. ________________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses, by Star Internet, delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit: http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Sun May 6 13:31:57 2001 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0007A266@BUSH02> > England doesn't allow guns, and look at the mess they're in. Huh? What mess? > Guns kill plenty of people, sure. Guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people. Lee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The information contained in this email may contain information which is confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. ________________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses, by Star Internet, delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit: http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun May 6 13:40:30 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: Allison: 2910c version of z80 and FPGAs - a little O/T Message-ID: <01b601c0d65c$ea9dcf80$ba749a8d@ajp166> From: Richard Erlacher >There's been so much unwarranted (IMHO) skepticism about the ability to transfer >a solid DEC CPU design into CPLD/FPGA that I'd really like to see someone try >it. The DEC folks didn't often do the wierd things that make circuits act There are several PDP-8s outther on FPGAs and there is nothing to say others would not be doable save for maybe enough gates (CPLDs) to do the job. >fix the older designs so they'd work fine in current technology, and probably >MUCH faster. I'm not interested in DEC stuff myself, but the fact that there Potential for speed is definately there using newer technology. >are several manufacturers making logical equivalents of the DEC CPU's today Well most of them are doing it from DEC mask sets under license. I presume you mean Alpha and PDP-11 (11/93 class). >yield 150), you'll get it done. Once the design is entered, simulated, >synthesized, simulated and tested as implemented, there's room for fixes. The If you dont simulate and test the sim you will likely fail. Allison From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 6 13:50:11 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: Allison: 2910c version of z80 References: <013301c0d5be$da102e90$ba749a8d@ajp166> <003b01c0d649$8a5bc2c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3AF58786.959BB9C4@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <001101c0d65d$61409960$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> In 1990, when the 3000-series parts were new, the 3030's cost around $300, each, in thousands, the 3042's, a bit more, and the 3090'w which were the biggest at the time, cost about $650 in the <2k units per year we were buying. There are still plenty of XILINX parts that, say, AVNET wants >$1k for in small quantities. I agree, however, that the SPARTAN series, which seems to be the most accessible series of XILINX parts, are quite reasonable, and the PLCC-84 is far and away the most reasonable package for prototyping. However, if you want to use the >300-pin packages that some devices force you to use, the adapters for applying them to a prototype board, cost >$500. True, this is for a socketed part, and the bulk of the cost is for the socket. However, I have a tough time justifying a prototyping adapter for each of several devices in the same package, particularly since they're so difficult to solder by hand. (I'm gradually going blind ... ) Moreover, the BGA prototyping sockets required for the really high-pin-count parts cost some real money. Making an adapter PCB for these is not a trivial process either, since there's no way to rework the BGA's if their contacts don't all "make" and I'm not willing to gamble with the high cost of these devices. It's just as difficult accomodating the smaller parts from other vendors, with their odd-fraction-of-a-millimeter pin pitch, etc. Eventually I'll figure out how to manage the problem. For now, however, I'm going to complain every time I get a chance. XILINX, as I said before, is VERY generous with support of all sorts, maintaining an active presence on the comp.arch.fpga newsgroup to help with all sorts of questions. Once you've bought even the cheapest support software, they'll help you all you want. Moreover, their free WEBPACK software is adequate for many tasks. The higher-end tools required to do a proper job on a BIG task cost some dough, though. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "emanuel stiebler" To: Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 11:19 AM Subject: Re: Allison: 2910c version of z80 > Sorry Richard, I have to jump in here ;-) > > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > I'd not be afraid to give the SPARTAN series a try for building an experimental > > version of a '70's-'80's generation CPU. They are relatively (choke) > > inexpensive > > $20 for the xcs10, plcc84 package. > What did you pay for your 3k gates 3030 before ? > > > and available in versions with sufficient on-board RAM that you > > might not need the higher pin counts required to interface external memory. > > Unfortunately, the high-pin-count parts are hard to prototype. > > There really many prototype boards out there. And cheap ones ... > > > The solution is to go to a gun show and buy a pistol, then stop at the local > > liquor store to make a withdrawal. > > Student license is $100 & the small prototype board around $150. > > Still much cheaper than a good gun ;-) > > > Then you'll be able to afford the > > prototyping sockets, normally costing $400-500 or so when built onto a > > wire-wrap-compatible adapter. Life is easier when one simply uses the 84-pin > > PLCC versions. > > Cheers > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 6 13:51:18 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? References: <004f01c0d64c$56e54b20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <033e01c0d652$33e23920$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <001701c0d65d$89424c60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yes, but there are similar constructs, e.g. multi-gate mosfets. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sipke de Wal" To: Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 11:30 AM Subject: Re: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? > That's a valid assumption for TTL but not for NMOS > PMOS! And CMOS actually needs roughly the double > amount of transistors > > I've never heard of mos-multi-emitter-transistors > > Sipke de Wal > ------------------------------------------------------ > http://xgistor.ath.cx > ------------------------------------------------------ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Richard Erlacher > To: > Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 6:48 PM > Subject: Re: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? > > > > I doubt it was really 68K transistors. If you multiply out the number of > > transistors needed to implement the registers and counters, then add 50% for > the > > ALU and double the whole thing for the control logic, you'll probably have as > > good a count. > > > > Keep in mind that gate counts can be manipulated quite a bit by the marketing > > guys. When you're building a gate, you can build a transistor with two > > emitters. That functions as an AND gate. If you need a 3-input AND gate, > > however, though it can be built with just another emitter the marketing guys > > will tell you it's actually three AND gates. Transistor counts are probably > not > > that important. > > > > Dick > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Brian Chase" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 9:29 PM > > Subject: Re: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? > > > > > > > On Sat, 5 May 2001, Mike Cheponis wrote: > > > > > > > >From Microprocessor Report, in chronological order: > > > > > > > 6502: 4K transistors 21 mm^2 > > > > > > Nice, now if I could only get enough info to implement one in TTL. :-) > > > Silly, yes, but it would be a fun project. > > > > > > > 68000 68K transistors 44 mm^2 > > > > > > I thought this was an interesting coincidence... the 68K transistor > > > count I mean. > > > > > > -brian. > > > > > > > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 6 13:51:48 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? References: <200105060633.XAA07986@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <001d01c0d65d$9af00e20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yes. That's what I believe as well. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Ford" To: Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 11:40 AM Subject: Re: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? > >Though it could have been based on an estimate, the chip name/number, was > >conjured up long before there could have been an accurate transistor count. > > My guess is that 68000 as a name had a lot to do with adding a zero to 6800. > > > From Demon02554 at aol.com Sun May 6 13:58:18 2001 From: Demon02554 at aol.com (Demon02554@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: ewy Message-ID: if ewy sees this email me...i lost your address thanks, Robert Cobbins From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 6 14:02:17 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 6 May 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > My guess is that 68000 as a name had a lot to do with adding a zero to 6800. I have been told several times that the 4004 was named after being the equivalent of 4004 transistors. I don't believe that. But what WAS the origin of the name? From rdd at smart.net Sun May 6 14:05:41 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage In-Reply-To: <008501c0d651$000cae60$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 May 2001, Claude.W wrote: > Yes, nice place US -- except for all the guns... No, a nice place except for all of the idiots, thugs and politicians... wait a minute, I just mentioned idiots and thugs, and politicians typically fit into those categories... so, I should hav just said idiots and thugs. How can anyone be so naieve as to think that nearly anything else besides a gun can't be used as a lethal weapon? What's next? A ban on water, computer monitors, screwdrivers, garden shears, pillows, rocks, power cords, knives, pencils, glass jars, assorted cooking utensils, potatos, various herbs and other plants, tree branches, heavy books, a box of greenbar paper, monkey wrench, darts and test-equipment probes for a start? ...and let's not forget a ban on using parts of the human body as weapons; what you you propose to do about that, require that everyone wear a straightjacket? ...while gagged as well so as not to commit the crime of saying anything politically incoredt? -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 6 14:05:51 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: Allison: 2910c version of z80 and FPGAs - a little O/T References: <01b601c0d65c$ea9dcf80$ba749a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <003901c0d65f$933c1780$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> No, it's not the Alpha or some relatively late design that interests me, but, rather, the old solid 8's or 11's. Emanuel once told me there are a couple of makers of PDP-11 look-alikes that work well enough to be of interest. Like the old 8-bitters, there are plenty of things these 16-bitters did perfectly well that still need to be done. If the software exists, it's certainly worthwhile to build hardware to execute it. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "ajp166" To: Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 12:40 PM Subject: Re: Allison: 2910c version of z80 and FPGAs - a little O/T > From: Richard Erlacher > > > >There's been so much unwarranted (IMHO) skepticism about the ability to > transfer > >a solid DEC CPU design into CPLD/FPGA that I'd really like to see > someone try > >it. The DEC folks didn't often do the wierd things that make circuits > act > > > There are several PDP-8s out there on FPGAs and there is nothing to say > others would not be doable save for maybe enough gates (CPLDs) to do the job. > > >fix the older designs so they'd work fine in current technology, and > probably > >MUCH faster. I'm not interested in DEC stuff myself, but the fact that > there > > > Potential for speed is definately there using newer technology. > > >are several manufacturers making logical equivalents of the DEC CPU's > today > > > Well most of them are doing it from DEC mask sets under license. I > presume > you mean Alpha and PDP-11 (11/93 class). > > >yield 150), you'll get it done. Once the design is entered, simulated, > >synthesized, simulated and tested as implemented, there's room for > fixes. The > > > If you dont simulate and test the sim you will likely fail. > > Allison > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 6 14:07:43 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: eBay alert: TI 980B mini and a HUGE IBM drive In-Reply-To: <3AF59706.9DCF9298@internet1.net> Message-ID: > > > posted here at all. If I'm looking for a Bebop model 10, I would rather > > > someone let me know one was on Ebay, than not know at all. > > > > It's called a "search" ;) > > Yes, but searches don't pick up everything. Occasionally, when I am > browsing, I find stuff that I search for, on a regular basis, but it > didn't come up in my search. The seller either didn't spell something > correctly, or put it in the wrong category, or added a space in between > characters or something. Perhaps because it is spelled Bee-bop model 10? From marvin at rain.org Sun May 6 14:10:15 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage References: <200105051613.MAA02417@wordstock.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20010506082307.00a605f0@mail.wincom.net> <008501c0d651$000cae60$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> Message-ID: <3AF5A197.3ACB335D@rain.org> "Claude.W" wrote: > > Yes, please check your guns at the border... The only people I've seen opposing guns are those that distrust other people to do the "right" thing, i.e. liberals for the most part. Fear is something that does strange things to some peoples ability to think. Fear - Fantisized Experiences Appearing Real. From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun May 6 14:22:56 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage In-Reply-To: <3AF5A197.3ACB335D@rain.org> References: <200105051613.MAA02417@wordstock.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20010506082307.00a605f0@mail.wincom.net> <008501c0d651$000cae60$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> <3AF5A197.3ACB335D@rain.org> Message-ID: >The only people I've seen opposing guns are those that distrust other people >to do the "right" thing, i.e. liberals for the most part. Fear is something >that does strange things to some peoples ability to think. Fear - Fantisized >Experiences Appearing Real. Fear is neccesary to stay alive though. Only an utter fool fears nothing and generally won't have a very long life because of it. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From broth at heathers.stdio.com Sun May 6 13:27:32 2001 From: broth at heathers.stdio.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage In-Reply-To: <3AF56009.2355B2ED@timharrison.com> References: <200105051613.MAA02417@wordstock.com> <01050519240201.00787@fatty> <3AF56009.2355B2ED@timharrison.com> Message-ID: <01050614323401.08768@fatty> Excellent response. I've watched Hockey most of my life but never knew what the %#$% a hab was. I'll have my daughter read this as she is a huge Canadien's fan. Now next question... Whats a Hoser? Just kidding. I live 1 1/2 hours from Toronto and love going by car or boat. Great city but there are three numbers that would keep me from living there. 4 0 1 You guys are drowning in cars. Brian. On Sun, 06 May 2001, you wrote: > Brian Roth wrote: > > > Didn't really mean anything by it. I live 10 min from the border. I'm well > > familiar with the term, I was just wondering if it had a real meaning besides > > slang. > > http://ntas.nscc.sccd.ctc.edu/chaseplace/claslink/Canuck..htm (yes > there's a double dot in there). > > I'm not sure which opinion I support in that, but I'm more inclined to > go with the "quelle canule" as the original statement that started it > all. > > > OK, next question. Whats a Hab? > > "Hab" is a reference to "habitant", a French term from the early part of > the century and before. Quebec farmers were called "habitants". > > "Habs" was then used to refer to the French team members of the Montreal > Canadiens hockey club. From what I've seen, the H in the Canadiens' > logo is not for "habitant" but part of "Club de Hockey Canadien", the > official name of the team from 1917 on, after it was changed from > Canadian Athletic Club, the original name in 1909. > > -- > > > Tim Harrison > Network Engineer > harrison@timharrison.com > http://www.networklevel.com/ -- Brian Roth - System Administrator www.webwirz.com - Old Computer Repository Preoccupation is my main occupation..... From azog at azog.org Sun May 6 14:33:24 2001 From: azog at azog.org (Billy D'Augustine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage References: Message-ID: <003001c0d663$6b102360$0a00a8c0@azog> This is inane. A gun has a single purpose for existance - and that is to take away the life of someone or something. One doesn't hammer a nail with a gun, nor does one rake leaves with a gun. What purpose of an AK-47? One doesn't go deer hunting with a 9mm. I have several examples of large calibre shells - one is a 50mm and the other is in the 20mm range. What purpose of these? One shoots ballistic projectiles at living beings with a gun, in the hopes of terminating, or seriously damaging, the target. Call me what you will. > > How can anyone be so naieve as to think that nearly anything else > besides a gun can't be used as a lethal weapon? > > What's next? A ban on water, computer monitors, screwdrivers, garden > shears, pillows, rocks, power cords, knives, pencils, glass jars, > assorted cooking utensils, potatos, various herbs and other plants, > tree branches, heavy books, a box of greenbar paper, monkey wrench, > darts and test-equipment probes for a start? > > ...and let's not forget a ban on using parts of the human body as > weapons; what you you propose to do about that, require that everyone > wear a straightjacket? ...while gagged as well so as not to commit the > crime of saying anything politically incoredt? From broth at heathers.stdio.com Sun May 6 13:39:56 2001 From: broth at heathers.stdio.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage In-Reply-To: <3AF5A197.3ACB335D@rain.org> References: <200105051613.MAA02417@wordstock.com> <008501c0d651$000cae60$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> <3AF5A197.3ACB335D@rain.org> Message-ID: <01050614451202.08768@fatty> You guys should take a look at the subject on this post. RE: Interesting show on the Computer Garage Change it to "Tonight on Crossfire- Debate on off topic issues rages on" Brian. On Sun, 06 May 2001, you wrote: > "Claude.W" wrote: > > > > Yes, please check your guns at the border... > > The only people I've seen opposing guns are those that distrust other people > to do the "right" thing, i.e. liberals for the most part. Fear is something > that does strange things to some peoples ability to think. Fear - Fantisized > Experiences Appearing Real. -- Brian Roth - System Administrator www.webwirz.com - Old Computer Repository Preoccupation is my main occupation..... From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun May 6 14:57:29 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: XiLinx XC40xx-PC84 In-Reply-To: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0007A265@BUSH02> Message-ID: > > I found a dozen or so Xilinx protoboards, size of a punch card >half of it > > open, 2 digit display, couple buttons, some kind of serial looking > > connection, runs off a 9v battery, big socket in the middle > > with a square chip in it of the same name. > >It's an XC4003A demo board and it came with tools, demo projects and a cable >to hook it to your PC to program it. >The idea was you could see how easy FPGA use was and then you'd buy 1000s of >them for your next project. > >I have the chip datasheet, it's available from freetradezone.com All I have are the cards, but I will go looking in the boxes for other stuff. I wonder if its possible to get any of the software? Sure sounds like a fun toy, these were used I think in some class at UC Irvine, and as usual what shows up in surplus are just parts. Two people have already asked for one, so I think it is best if I wait on sending more out until at least one of them reports back on the actual devices. From chris at mainecoon.com Sun May 6 15:07:21 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: Seriously OT: Firearms (was RE: Interesting show on the Computer Garage) In-Reply-To: <003001c0d663$6b102360$0a00a8c0@azog> Message-ID: Billy D'Augustine wrote: > This is inane. A gun has a single purpose for existance - and that is to > take away the life of someone or something. This will certainly come as news to the practical pistol, sporting clay and skeet crowds. A firearm is also an effective deterrent. In the US we have no individual right to be protected by the police; if they fail to respond in time to save your life the failure to perform is not actionable in court. This is generally of little consequence to someone living around the corner from the cop shop, but for those of us with 20+ minute response times it might be an issue. And in my case it was. I've been through the home invasion experience, thank you very much, and as far as we -- and the cops -- are concerned the only reason that we're alive is because when the leader of the group raised his handy-dandy baseball bat over his head with the intent to crush mine I rolled over and stuck a 1076 under his chin. > One doesn't hammer a nail with a > gun, nor does one rake leaves with a gun. I don't recall anyone asserting that either of these were the case; rather the point was being made that humans are (a) fragile (b) very, very good at killing each other and (c) that as a consequence demonizing one of literally thousands of items that can be used as effective weapons was silly. What you need to do is figure out why people consider homicide a reasonable act and do something about _that_. > What purpose of an AK-47? The designer clearly intended it to kill people. Your point? > One doesn't go deer hunting with a 9mm. I'll be sure to tell a colleague of mine. He's a formal verification nut; he's also a handgun hunter who shoots .38, 9mm, 12mm, and .455, and has at times hunted everything from deer to boar. The reason one generally uses long guns is because short-barrel accuracy over distance sucks, and _most_ handgun rounds have aerodynamic limitations (I say _most_ because he's also sporting a handgun in 7.62x39). > Call me what you will. How does "clueless, irrational nitwit who has never once found their life in danger from violence" strike you? When you've had your life placed in danger, have access to a firearm and choose not to use -- or threaten to use -- it you're welcome to describe this as "inane". Until then you're working in a vacuum. I was raised in the city and never thought once about owning a firearm. It wasn't until I moved to rural California as was advised by the sheriff's department of off-hours response times that I took an interest -- and I'm glad I did. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From pdp11 at bellsouth.net Sun May 6 15:34:17 2001 From: pdp11 at bellsouth.net (Doug Carman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage References: <003001c0d663$6b102360$0a00a8c0@azog> Message-ID: <3AF5B549.CBEB1A37@bellsouth.net> I am sure there are some firearms related mailing lists where this discussion would be more appropriate. I would rather have my inbox filled up with messages related to classic computers. -- Doug Carman pdp11@bellsouth.net From chronic at nf.sympatico.ca Sun May 6 15:34:02 2001 From: chronic at nf.sympatico.ca (Lanny Cox) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage References: Message-ID: <001d01c0d66b$e485e9c0$88f8fea9@98box> I agree to a point, but a gun is a helluva lot more efficient and lethal than any of the weapons you mentioned below. The NRA tries to pitch this sort of idea all the time, but the simple fact is, someone can walk into a public place with a 12-gauge shotgun and create a big mess in a matter of a few seconds. -Lanny ----- Original Message ----- From: R. D. Davis To: Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 4:35 PM Subject: Re: Interesting show on the Computer Garage > How can anyone be so naieve as to think that nearly anything else > besides a gun can't be used as a lethal weapon? > > What's next? A ban on water, computer monitors, screwdrivers, garden > shears, pillows, rocks, power cords, knives, pencils, glass jars, > assorted cooking utensils, potatos, various herbs and other plants, > tree branches, heavy books, a box of greenbar paper, monkey wrench, > darts and test-equipment probes for a start? From markn at mr2.net Sun May 6 15:35:05 2001 From: markn at mr2.net (Mark Nias) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: For Sale: DEC System 5000 Memory Boards Message-ID: <000101c0d66c$08d717e0$960a0a0a@marknpc> hi Folks... i have 8 memory boards salvaged from a DECSystem 5000, each board contains 78 TC511000AJ-10 chips (39 on each side). These are untested, although they came from a working system and have been kept in anti-static bags since removal. please email me with offers, i'm in the UK so i'd prefer to sell them only in the UK... although i will ship internationally if it's worth it. there's a picture of a board at: http://www.daneel.demon.co.uk/auctionimages/decmemory.jpg many thanks mark ======================= Mark Nias http://www.mr2.net http://www.marknias.com ======================= From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun May 6 15:42:35 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: Allison: 2910c version of z80 and FPGAs - a little O/T Message-ID: <01e301c0d66d$b77e9740$ba749a8d@ajp166> From: Richard Erlacher >rather, the old solid 8's or 11's. Emanuel once told me there are a couple of >makers of PDP-11 look-alikes that work well enough to be of interest. Like the Mentec, they have the license and make cpu/systems to go with the OS. Some are quite fast compared the the 1978 gold standard (PDP-11/70). >From the other standpoint I can easily fine PDP-11/23s and even 11/73 or 11/83 series machines making the effort somewhat moot. People have done PDP-8s for "lab projects" for years and at least one was packed in to two arrays (cpu, memory and IO!) on a board small enough to barely hide a 3.5" drive. The problem is PDP-8 is not a rom friendly design from the start. PDP-11 is better there but much of the stuff out there wants for RAM, excluding the unique code for the Falcon and later class SBCs. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun May 6 15:45:14 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? Message-ID: <01e401c0d66d$b7ee21f0$ba749a8d@ajp166> From: Davison, Lee > >I've never heard of mos-multi-emitter-transistors > >Just etch multiple mos structures and have a common gate. Tie drains and >sources as required. > >Lee. Very common, also devices were split and run in parallel as two smaller devices were faster or had better characteristics then one larger one. On silicon designs rarely translate to discrete beyond the early parts. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun May 6 15:47:41 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? Message-ID: <01ef01c0d66f$d1faea90$ba749a8d@ajp166> I'd heard, four bits in four packages. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Sunday, May 06, 2001 3:26 PM Subject: Re: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? >On Sun, 6 May 2001, Mike Ford wrote: >> My guess is that 68000 as a name had a lot to do with adding a zero to 6800. > >I have been told several times that the 4004 was named after being the >equivalent of 4004 transistors. I don't believe that. But what WAS the >origin of the name? > > From vcf at siconic.com Sun May 6 15:04:14 2001 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:05 2005 Subject: Florida Ballot Machines to be Auctioned Message-ID: Palm Beach to Auction Voting Machines Palm Beach County is selling the voting machines at the center of last year's chad debate to help pay for more modern voting equipment. Supervisor of Elections Theresa LePore says because the Florida Legislature has voted to ban punch card ballots, the county will soon begin selling some or all of its 5,000 Votomatic machines on eBay, the online auction house. Proceeds from the sale will help the county buy voting equipment expected to cost between US$3 million and US$14 million. The state will give the county US$1.9 million. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 6 13:29:06 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: + and - on HP21 calculator? In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010505174300.023f2050@208.226.86.10> from "Chuck McManis" at May 5, 1 05:45:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3496 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010506/9f4078a5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 6 15:58:20 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? In-Reply-To: <200105060633.XAA07986@stockholm.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at May 5, 1 11:33:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 329 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010506/cb54bf26/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 6 15:55:39 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: + and - on HP21 calculator? In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010505184211.0242bdc0@208.226.86.10> from "Chuck McManis" at May 5, 1 06:45:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1456 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010506/b3ef6f2c/attachment.ksh From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun May 6 16:03:10 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage In-Reply-To: <003001c0d663$6b102360$0a00a8c0@azog> References: Message-ID: >This is inane. A gun has a single purpose for existance - and that is to Guns are fun, and a cornerstone of personal freedom. Didn't we just do this a couple weeks ago though? Let not do it again. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 6 16:16:21 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at May 6, 1 12:02:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 636 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010506/c55b6a57/attachment.ksh From vance at ikickass.org Sun May 6 16:23:01 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Vance Dereksen) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage In-Reply-To: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0007A266@BUSH02> Message-ID: Guns don't kill people, people don't kill people, bullets kill people. Peace... Sridhar On Sun, 6 May 2001, Davison, Lee wrote: > > > England doesn't allow guns, and look at the mess they're in. > > Huh? What mess? > > > Guns kill plenty of people, sure. > > Guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people. > > Lee. > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The > information contained in this email may contain information which is > confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender > and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. > > If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please > delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International > IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. > > ________________________________________________________________________ > This message has been checked for all known viruses, by Star Internet, > delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. > For further information visit: > http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp > From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sun May 6 16:25:32 2001 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: o-scope In-Reply-To: <4.1.20010506120458.038a53d0@206.231.8.2> from "Christian Fandt" at May 06, 2001 12:57:25 PM Message-ID: <200105062125.PAA01850@calico.litterbox.com> I looked there on my scope. Some bright spark took the name plate off. > Well Jim, the markings at the top of the front panel above the CRT show the > model number. This should be the case and I've never seen or heard of > anything different on TEK scopes. -And I've been a TEK > collector/enthusiast/user for _decades_. Thanks for this info, I'll go there and check it out. > As for studying how to care, use and feed these wonderful pieces of > engineering, please go to this URL: > > http://www.reprise.com/host/tektronix/home/default.asp > > -and rumage around. > > It has much of what you (or anyone, BTW) need to begin understanding TEK > scopes in general. > > Look at this page for a bit of Heaven :-) (IMO) > http://www.vaxxine.com/phil/scopes/stan-g.htm > > Have fun learning with it Jim. Thanks again! -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From vance at ikickass.org Sun May 6 16:27:30 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Vance Dereksen) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage In-Reply-To: <003001c0d663$6b102360$0a00a8c0@azog> Message-ID: I will use a gun to shoot in the ass someone who wants to take all my stuff, before they successfully do so. If someone rapes my sister, I will go get a gun and put and end to their miserable existence. Not much use besides that, though, is there for a firearm. Peace... Sridhar On Sun, 6 May 2001, Billy D'Augustine wrote: > This is inane. A gun has a single purpose for existance - and that is to > take away the life of someone or something. One doesn't hammer a nail with a > gun, nor does one rake leaves with a gun. What purpose of an AK-47? One > doesn't go deer hunting with a 9mm. I have several examples of large calibre > shells - one is a 50mm and the other is in the 20mm range. What purpose of > these? One shoots ballistic projectiles at living beings with a gun, in the > hopes of terminating, or seriously damaging, the target. Call me what you > will. > > > > > > How can anyone be so naieve as to think that nearly anything else > > besides a gun can't be used as a lethal weapon? > > > > What's next? A ban on water, computer monitors, screwdrivers, garden > > shears, pillows, rocks, power cords, knives, pencils, glass jars, > > assorted cooking utensils, potatos, various herbs and other plants, > > tree branches, heavy books, a box of greenbar paper, monkey wrench, > > darts and test-equipment probes for a start? > > > > ...and let's not forget a ban on using parts of the human body as > > weapons; what you you propose to do about that, require that everyone > > wear a straightjacket? ...while gagged as well so as not to commit the > > crime of saying anything politically incoredt? > > From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sun May 6 16:28:07 2001 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: o-scope In-Reply-To: <016101c0d64b$430869d0$ba749a8d@ajp166> from "ajp166" at May 06, 2001 12:40:03 PM Message-ID: <200105062128.PAA01865@calico.litterbox.com> > No not required to match. That specification is the capacitance > presented > across the input jack along with the scopes input resistance (usually > 1megohm). > Most scope probes have an adjustment to compensate for this and therefor > it's not a problem. I found the adjuster on this probe, and I can make the waves *sort of* square. Not like in the picture in the manual though. > Probe compensation is off or the amplifier (vertical) are misadjusted > internally. Ookay, how do I fix this? Is there an adjustment screw inside? And if so, any recommendations on what not to touch so I live through the experience? :) > > A square wave on that series should look square. > > Allison > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun May 6 16:30:58 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: Allied Telesis ISA ARCnet cards In-Reply-To: <01ef01c0d66f$d1faea90$ba749a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: I am pretty sure in a box of misc at a auction I am going to tomorrow I saw a case of Allied Telesis ISA ARCnet cards new in the box. Any interest at about $5 each? From allain at panix.com Sun May 6 16:44:34 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: modern? DEC 8" at TCF References: <20010505.174120.-4101401.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <000b01c0d675$be35f9e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> >Sources on the net say this is (part of) an >RA-92. That's what it was, thanks. I kept looking, using the product ID you gave me and it looks like a 1.5G, proprietary DEC interface ?HDA. The Trenton Computer Festival was something of an experience, Huge but shallow. Almost no DEC stuff at all, Quite a few parts, too much PeeCee. I think I'd go again since it's only once a year. There were quite a few Macs and Sun tho. Glad there's still the MIT out here to go to. The comparative sizes of the two might be MIT: 225 spaces, TCF: 550 outside spaces, 100 oversized inside spaces. Forgot how big Foothill was, 300? MIT is great because it's located within the 128 beltway. John A. From azog at azog.org Sun May 6 17:05:52 2001 From: azog at azog.org (Billy D'Augustine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: Seriously OT: Firearms (was RE: Interesting show on the Computer Garage) References: Message-ID: <001801c0d678$b7e48400$0a00a8c0@azog> Thank you for the insult. I'm someone who believes that life is sacred, and I take it from your tone that you see life as a commodity to be wasted. One day, I will stand before the Lord, and when He asks for an accounting of my life, I can at least give Him an honest accounting in that regard. "Vengence is mine" and all that. Extend yourself. > > How does "clueless, irrational nitwit who has never once found their life in > danger from violence" strike you? When you've had your life placed in > danger, > have access to a firearm and choose not to use -- or threaten to use -- it > you're welcome to describe this as "inane". Until then you're working > in a vacuum. I was raised in the city and never thought once about owning > a firearm. It wasn't until I moved to rural California as was advised by > the sheriff's department of off-hours response times that I took an > interest -- > and I'm glad I did. From marvin at rain.org Sun May 6 17:17:29 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: Seriously OT: Firearms (was RE: Interesting show on the Computer Garage) References: <001801c0d678$b7e48400$0a00a8c0@azog> Message-ID: <3AF5CD79.66C4B5A8@rain.org> Billy D'Augustine wrote: > > Thank you for the insult. I'm someone who believes that life is sacred, and > I take it from your tone that you see life as a commodity to be wasted. One > day, I will stand before the Lord, and when He asks for an accounting of my > life, I can at least give Him an honest accounting in that regard. "Vengence > is mine" and all that. Extend yourself. I must be bored to even be responding :). *Whose* life is it that you believe is sacred? It sounds like if you got into the situation Chris described, you would be giving Him an accounting sooner than you might expect. I too consider life sacred, but I also consider *accountability* to enter into that equation as He teaches. I am perfectly willing to respect the beliefs of those people who choose not to own firearms. It is a shame that same respect is not returned for my beliefs. > > > > > How does "clueless, irrational nitwit who has never once found their life > in > > danger from violence" strike you? When you've had your life placed in > > danger, > > have access to a firearm and choose not to use -- or threaten to use -- it > > you're welcome to describe this as "inane". Until then you're working > > in a vacuum. I was raised in the city and never thought once about owning > > a firearm. It wasn't until I moved to rural California as was advised by > > the sheriff's department of off-hours response times that I took an > > interest -- > > and I'm glad I did. From pechter at bg-tc-ppp427.monmouth.com Sun May 6 17:40:37 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp427.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: Trenton State Computer Festival In-Reply-To: <000b01c0d675$be35f9e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> from John Allain at "May 6, 2001 05:44:34 pm" Message-ID: <200105062240.f46Meb800764@bg-tc-ppp427.monmouth.com> > The Trenton Computer Festival was something of an > experience, Huge but shallow. Almost no DEC stuff > at all, Quite a few parts, too much PeeCee. I > think I'd go again since it's only once a year. > There were quite a few Macs and Sun tho. > Glad there's still the MIT out here to go to. > The comparative sizes of the two might be > MIT: 225 spaces, TCF: 550 outside spaces, 100 > oversized inside spaces. Forgot how big Foothill > was, 300? MIT is great because it's located within > the 128 beltway. > > John A. John -- any idea what the Sun Sparc10's and Sparc20's were going for... I was going to go and look for some but got too busy with other stuff. Most of the DEC stuff in the area cleared through Trenton over 4 year ago. The show had tons of PDP8's and PDP11/23's and 11/34's and MicroVaxes back in the late 80's. Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 6 17:37:24 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: o-scope In-Reply-To: <200105062128.PAA01865@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at May 6, 1 03:28:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 761 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010506/b48ba6c2/attachment.ksh From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun May 6 17:56:46 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: o-scope Message-ID: <023601c0d680$9fae6ba0$ba749a8d@ajp166> From: Jim Strickland >> Probe compensation is off or the amplifier (vertical) are misadjusted >> internally. > >Ookay, how do I fix this? Is there an adjustment screw inside? And if so, >any recommendations on what not to touch so I live through the experience? :) Touch nothing. You require the manual and some aid/experience in adjusting something like the vertical amp. FYI there is serious HV inside scopes. Be careful. Allison From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sun May 6 18:13:22 2001 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: o-scope In-Reply-To: <023601c0d680$9fae6ba0$ba749a8d@ajp166> from "ajp166" at May 06, 2001 06:56:46 PM Message-ID: <200105062313.RAA02340@calico.litterbox.com> > Touch nothing. You require the manual and some aid/experience in > adjusting > something like the vertical amp. > > FYI there is serious HV inside scopes. Be careful. Okay. I wasn't too keen on sticking my hands in there anyway. Thanks. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From foo at siconic.com Sun May 6 17:29:16 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: eBay alert: TI 980B mini and a HUGE IBM drive In-Reply-To: <3AF59706.9DCF9298@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 May 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > It's called a "search" ;) > > Yes, but searches don't pick up everything. Occasionally, when I am > browsing, I find stuff that I search for, on a regular basis, but it > didn't come up in my search. The seller either didn't spell something > correctly, or put it in the wrong category, or added a space in between > characters or something. It's nice if I am the only person to find it, > but it isn't nice if I can't find it either! Good point. We should invite all sellers on the eBay Computers:Hardware:Vintage category to post their ads in CC. Better yet, let's just write some software that sends automatically a message to CC for every vintage computer item posted. That way, you won't miss anything. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Sun May 6 17:31:32 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 6 May 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Sun, 6 May 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > > My guess is that 68000 as a name had a lot to do with adding a zero to 6800. > > I have been told several times that the 4004 was named after being the > equivalent of 4004 transistors. I don't believe that. But what WAS the > origin of the name? I have notes on this somewhere. In fact, I posted about this to BACCL after my meeting with Ted Hoff in 1998. It was basically just the number the marketing folks at Intel assigned to it. I believe the part number being 4004 and the microprocessor being a 4-bitter was sheer coincidence. I could go back and find the message if it's of that much interest. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jss at ou.edu Sun May 6 18:30:37 2001 From: jss at ou.edu (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: Trenton State Computer Festival In-Reply-To: <200105062240.f46Meb800764@bg-tc-ppp427.monmouth.com> References: <200105062240.f46Meb800764@bg-tc-ppp427.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <989191837.3af5de9d8142f@email.ou.edu> Quoting Bill Pechter : > Most of the DEC stuff in the area cleared through Trenton over 4 > year ago. The show had tons of PDP8's and PDP11/23's and 11/34's > and MicroVaxes back in the late 80's. Something like that has been my luck while scouring the Oklahoma City metro area for PDP-11 stuff. I've talked to numerous people that told me "yeah, we had some of those, but we sent 'em to the scrapyard about five years go". It's a shame that I couldn't have gotten into this a little earlier. :-) -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@ou.edu From foo at siconic.com Sun May 6 17:34:30 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 6 May 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > >The only people I've seen opposing guns are those that distrust other people > >to do the "right" thing, i.e. liberals for the most part. Fear is something > >that does strange things to some peoples ability to think. Fear - Fantisized > >Experiences Appearing Real. > > Fear is neccesary to stay alive though. Only an utter fool > fears nothing and generally won't have a very long life because of it. I think the general sense of Marvin's message is in reference to irrational fear, which would tend to reduce one's quality of life. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jss at ou.edu Sun May 6 18:36:16 2001 From: jss at ou.edu (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: eBay alert: TI 980B mini and a HUGE IBM drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <989192176.3af5dff02af6a@email.ou.edu> Quoting Sellam Ismail : > Aren't we all? And isn't that why we collect classic computers > in the first place, because we couldn't afford them when they > were new? Not all of us were *alive* when the computers in our interest area were new! -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@ou.edu From foo at siconic.com Sun May 6 17:38:46 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: O F F - T O P I C Re: Interesting show on the Computer Garage In-Reply-To: <003001c0d663$6b102360$0a00a8c0@azog> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 May 2001, Billy D'Augustine wrote: > This is inane. A gun has a single purpose for existance - and that is > to take away the life of someone or something. One doesn't hammer a > nail with a gun, nor does one rake leaves with a gun. What purpose of > an AK-47? One doesn't go deer hunting with a 9mm. I have several > examples of large calibre shells - one is a 50mm and the other is in > the 20mm range. What purpose of these? One shoots ballistic > projectiles at living beings with a gun, in the hopes of terminating, > or seriously damaging, the target. Call me what you will. Oh for fuck's sake, Billy. Guns are a natural reality of our evolution as a species. When you come up with a plan for global Utopia then we'll turn all the guns into 19" equipment racks. In the meantime, enjoy the Biathlon in the Winter Olympics. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From owad at applefritter.com Sun May 6 18:38:43 2001 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: Trenton State Computer Festival In-Reply-To: <200105062240.f46Meb800764@bg-tc-ppp427.monmouth.com> References: <200105062240.f46Meb800764@bg-tc-ppp427.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <20010506233843.16180@mail.lafayette.edu> >Most of the DEC stuff in the area cleared through Trenton over 4 year ago. >The show had tons of PDP8's and PDP11/23's and 11/34's and MicroVaxes >back in the late 80's. I found the show disappointing. It wasn't nearly as good as previous years - and I can't tell you how many times the dealers told me how much they could get for the item I was interested in on eBay. (Hint: more than I was willing to pay.) The only semi-interesting items I bought that comply with the 10-year rule were an ugly Mac 512k with a SCSI upgrade for $1 and a nice SCSI floppy drive for the Mac for $5. Aside from a couple Apple IIe's, I only saw two 8-bit systems: a Commodore 64 and a TI-99/4a. I bought the Commodore for $1. I passed on what looked like a Vax (I wasn't entirely sure - it was about half missing and in horrible condition) for $600 and also passed on a $70 Apple IIgs. Tom P.S. Anybody have some cheap 70ns RAM for a DEC 3000? Applefritter www.applefritter.com From foo at siconic.com Sun May 6 17:44:02 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: Seriously OT: Firearms (was RE: Interesting show on the Computer Garage) In-Reply-To: <001801c0d678$b7e48400$0a00a8c0@azog> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 May 2001, Billy D'Augustine wrote: > Thank you for the insult. I'm someone who believes that life is sacred, and > I take it from your tone that you see life as a commodity to be wasted. One > day, I will stand before the Lord, and when He asks for an accounting of my > life, I can at least give Him an honest accounting in that regard. "Vengence > is mine" and all that. Extend yourself. Well, you may one day find yourself confronted with a situation that will take you to the Lord sooner than you may have wanted, where a gun might've helped. To each his own. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From azog at azog.org Sun May 6 18:42:16 2001 From: azog at azog.org (Billy D'Augustine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: Seriously OT: Firearms (was RE: Interesting show on the Computer Garage) References: <001801c0d678$b7e48400$0a00a8c0@azog> <3AF5CD79.66C4B5A8@rain.org> Message-ID: <000901c0d686$2f38fec0$0a00a8c0@azog> If you follow the thread, you'll notice that my original message was directed at a statement that says (not verbatum), "why shouldn't we outlaw hammers, rakes, nails, etc, because these can all be used as deadly weapons". However, the people listen to what they want to hear - my statement was "a gun is made to kill". The comparison is that those other tools are tools, and while a gun is a tool, its purpose is to kill. End of statement. > I am perfectly willing to respect > the beliefs of those people who choose not to own firearms. It is a shame > that same respect is not returned for my beliefs. From claudew at videotron.ca Sun May 6 19:16:45 2001 From: claudew at videotron.ca (Claude.W) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: PLEASE STOP --- Re: O F F - T O P I C Re: Interesting show on the Computer Garage References: Message-ID: <00c101c0d68b$000b1b60$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> Nothing to add Just please stop...let's get back to old computers... Claude ----- Original Message ----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 6:38 PM Subject: O F F - T O P I C Re: Interesting show on the Computer Garage > On Sun, 6 May 2001, Billy D'Augustine wrote: > > > This is inane. A gun has a single purpose for existance - and that is > > to take away the life of someone or something. One doesn't hammer a > > nail with a gun, nor does one rake leaves with a gun. What purpose of > > an AK-47? One doesn't go deer hunting with a 9mm. I have several > > examples of large calibre shells - one is a 50mm and the other is in > > the 20mm range. What purpose of these? One shoots ballistic > > projectiles at living beings with a gun, in the hopes of terminating, > > or seriously damaging, the target. Call me what you will. > > Oh for fuck's sake, Billy. Guns are a natural reality of our evolution as > a species. When you come up with a plan for global Utopia then we'll turn > all the guns into 19" equipment racks. > > In the meantime, enjoy the Biathlon in the Winter Olympics. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 6 19:12:44 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: Seriously OT: Firearms (was RE: Interesting show on the Computer Garage) In-Reply-To: <000901c0d686$2f38fec0$0a00a8c0@azog> Message-ID: > directed at a statement that says (not verbatum), "why shouldn't we outlaw > hammers, rakes, nails, etc, because these can all be used as deadly > weapons". I've been wondering why Windoze was left off of the list. While it is seldom deadly, it has caused more pain than all of the rest combined. From ncherry at home.com Sun May 6 19:31:30 2001 From: ncherry at home.com (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: Trenton State Computer Festival References: <200105062240.f46Meb800764@bg-tc-ppp427.monmouth.com> <20010506233843.16180@mail.lafayette.edu> Message-ID: <3AF5ECE2.95714CFD@home.com> Tom Owad wrote: > I passed on what looked like a Vax (I wasn't entirely sure - it was about > half missing and in horrible condition) for $600 and also passed on a $70 > Apple IIgs. Those guts seemed to think that everything they had was gold, they wanted $100 for a butt set. I also saw the Vax but after the butt set I knew they only wanted money. I came a way with an 1994 ARRL book for $5 and 6 28 pin headers for $6 (the fine one for taking emulators and pluggin them into a CPU socket). I tried ordering them from Digikey but always got the wrong part. I think I'll skip next years show although they want me as a speaker for the HA stuff I do. I'll think about it. BTW the Sparc-20's were going for $400 complete. I have them in the lab (at work) so I had no interest in them. -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) From rdd at smart.net Sun May 6 19:30:50 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: Seriously OT: Firearms (was RE: Interesting show on the Computer Garage) In-Reply-To: <001801c0d678$b7e48400$0a00a8c0@azog> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 May 2001, Billy D'Augustine wrote: > [...] I'm someone who believes that life is sacred, and Like you, I believe that all life is sacred; does not that sacredness also apply to our own lives? Don't you believe that people should be allowed to protect their own lives and the lives of those close to them? By the way, my belief in life being sacred applies to the life of non-human animals as well---one reason that I'm a vegetarian. This reminds me of something that's taught in martial arts classes: only use the amount of force necessary to subdue or ward off an attacker; don't use deadly force unless absolutely necessary to save a life. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From ncherry at home.com Sun May 6 19:34:39 2001 From: ncherry at home.com (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: System 36 Rescue? Message-ID: <3AF5ED9F.666DA4C9@home.com> One of my neighbors is tossing a System 36(?) (5632) out in the trash anyone interested? It's located in Central NJ (Turnpike 8A, Monroe Twp) and I can store it for a while. I doubt there is much there and I don't know the condition. -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 6 19:35:27 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: Trenton State Computer Festival In-Reply-To: <20010506233843.16180@mail.lafayette.edu> References: <200105062240.f46Meb800764@bg-tc-ppp427.monmouth.com> <200105062240.f46Meb800764@bg-tc-ppp427.monmouth.com> Message-ID: >Tom > >P.S. Anybody have some cheap 70ns RAM for a DEC 3000? BTW, when asking this question you need to specify which DEC 3000 Model you're refering to. Some will work with standard 72-pin True Parity SIMMs, others require different RAM. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun May 6 19:38:04 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: Seriously OT: Firearms (was RE: Interesting show on the Computer Garage) Message-ID: Can we get back ON TOPIC and talk old computers, such as how to coax a dead mac portable to power up? I have one and can get a cracking sound out of the speaker but nothing else. -- DB Young Team OS/2 old computers, hot rod pinto and more at: www.nothingtodo.org From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun May 6 19:39:18 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: Amiga question... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Does anyone have the 4-color colorwheel for the Digi-Droid from NewTek? I have two of the standard colorwheels but not the one meant to bolt to the front of the Digi-Droid. I could likely use a piece of cardboard to shrink the hub hole on one of them to fit the spindle on the droid but was concerned that the heavier weight of the standard wheel, as opposed to the Digi-Droid wheel which didn't have all the cardboard reinforcement, might possibly cause problems with the motor. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From rdd at smart.net Sun May 6 19:59:14 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: Seriously OT: Firearms (was RE: Interesting show on the Computer Garage) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 6 May 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > I've been wondering why Windoze was left off of the list. While it is > seldom deadly, it has caused more pain than all of the rest combined. Yes, I agree about it having caused more pain. However, could one not use a broken Windoze CD-ROM as a weapon? Could one not the software itself to frustrate and annoy someone to death? For example, a criminal trapping a UNIX hacker in a small room with only a PeeCee running Windoze for some indefinite period of time. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From rdd at smart.net Sun May 6 20:03:55 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: Seriously OT: Firearms (was RE: Interesting show on the Computer Garage) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 6 May 2001 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > Subject: Re: Seriously OT: Firearms (was RE: Interesting show on the > Computer Garage) > > Can we get back ON TOPIC and talk old computers, such as how to coax a dead > mac portable to power up? I have one and can get a cracking sound out of the > speaker but nothing else. Sure, just point a rifle full of buckshot at it... More seriously, have you cheched the power supply, disconnected and reconnected possibly oxidated connectors and reseated chips? -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 6 20:02:39 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: Seriously OT: Firearms (was RE: Interesting show on the Computer Garage) References: <001801c0d678$b7e48400$0a00a8c0@azog> Message-ID: <002f01c0d691$69c08300$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, your life may be sacred, but it isn't any more sacred than mine, though I wouldn't blame you for holding the same view. A few weeks after I moved into the house in which I currently live, I was attacked on my back patio by a stranger who shot me in the stomach. While I was not seriously injured, he was at the wrong house, apparently, looking for someone who'd had a little too much fun with his girlfriend. In order to prevent further injury, I was forced to take my hatchet to him, which was pleasant for neither of us. I doubt he'd have behaved in this way if I'd been armed as he was. Of course, it wasn't the first time I was shot, and, in fact, not the first time I was shot in the stomach, though I could have gone many years longer without repeating the experience. Since then, I've always kept a six-shooter handy around the house, not to mention a shotgun, though I have given up shooting sports. I've long held that everyone should be given one free kill, effective at the age of majority. It would be wise to keep quiet about whether it's been used yet or not, however. An armed society, my neighbor says, is a polite society. I agree with him. Since we suffer mainly from overpopulation, the worst that could happen is that the population is reduced. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Billy D'Augustine" To: Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 4:05 PM Subject: Re: Seriously OT: Firearms (was RE: Interesting show on the Computer Garage) > Thank you for the insult. I'm someone who believes that life is sacred, and > I take it from your tone that you see life as a commodity to be wasted. One > day, I will stand before the Lord, and when He asks for an accounting of my > life, I can at least give Him an honest accounting in that regard. "Vengence > is mine" and all that. Extend yourself. > > > > > How does "clueless, irrational nitwit who has never once found their life > in > > danger from violence" strike you? When you've had your life placed in > > danger, > > have access to a firearm and choose not to use -- or threaten to use -- it > > you're welcome to describe this as "inane". Until then you're working > > in a vacuum. I was raised in the city and never thought once about owning > > a firearm. It wasn't until I moved to rural California as was advised by > > the sheriff's department of off-hours response times that I took an > > interest -- > > and I'm glad I did. > > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun May 6 20:24:17 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: Mac Portable (Was Re: Seriously OT: Firearms) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Can we get back ON TOPIC and talk old computers, such as how to coax a dead >mac portable to power up? I have one and can get a cracking sound out of the >speaker but nothing else. If you aren't getting at least the startup chime you have problems. If you're getting no video and such, the first thing I'd check and likely replace on a Mac of that vintage is the PRAM battery. According to LowendMac, it is a 9V battery of some sort, not the more common 1/2 AA battery found in most other Mac's. Most of the Mac's I've had won't chime, provide video or anything else with a dead PRAM battery. After that, I'd check the normal cables and such to make sure everything is still tight. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun May 6 20:32:01 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: Mac Portable (Was Re: Seriously OT: Firearms) Message-ID: >Can we get back ON TOPIC and talk old computers, such as how to coax a dead >mac portable to power up? I have one and can get a cracking sound out of the >speaker but nothing else. Also, try this page for some additional info: http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/3959/index.html Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 6 20:39:45 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: Frustration and being on-topic (was: Seriously OT: Firearms (was RE: Interesting show on the Computer Garage) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 6 May 2001, R. D. Davis wrote: > > I've been wondering why Windoze was left off of the list. While it is > > seldom deadly, it has caused more pain than all of the rest combined. > Yes, I agree about it having caused more pain. However, could one not > use a broken Windoze CD-ROM as a weapon? Could one not the software > itself to frustrate and annoy someone to death? For example, a > criminal trapping a UNIX hacker in a small room with only a PeeCee > running Windoze for some indefinite period of time. The only fatality that I know of from computer frustration was from serial interfacing. It did involve a firearm and a computer over ten years ago, so does that bring the thread ON-topic? The first time that I ever saw Windoze on CD-ROM was V3.00 in August 1991, so it won't be on-topic for another few months. I think that V3.10 (beta) was only on floppies until 1992. From jpero at sympatico.ca Sun May 6 16:57:35 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: Mac Portable (Was Re: Seriously OT: Firearms) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20010507015510.GSRR16174.tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 21:24:17 -0400 > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > From: Jeff Hellige > Subject: Mac Portable (Was Re: Seriously OT: Firearms) > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > >Can we get back ON TOPIC and talk old computers, such as how to coax a dead > >mac portable to power up? I have one and can get a cracking sound out of the > >speaker but nothing else. > > If you aren't getting at least the startup chime you have > problems. If you're getting no video and such, the first thing I'd > check and likely replace on a Mac of that vintage is the PRAM > battery. According to LowendMac, it is a 9V battery of some sort, > not the more common 1/2 AA battery found in most other Mac's. Most > of the Mac's I've had won't chime, provide video or anything else > with a dead PRAM battery. After that, I'd check the normal cables > and such to make sure everything is still tight. This portable Mac is awarded Road Apple for being overweight at that time compared to other non-apple portables/notebooks and idiotic power design. Dead without good one and uses non-standard shape of sealed gel-acid battery especially when rebuilding that battery. These new cells can be found but not easy to find. Jeff is bang on on that PRAM battery, two days ago, I had a LC II stay dead till I swapped out that rare little can taken from spare motherboard. Yes, that 3.6V AA1/2 is rare and OVERPRICED around here. 16.xx to 20 ea CDN. Still searching for cheaper sources in canada. Must it be 3.6V? Or more common 3.0V in AA1/2 or easier to find 4.5V lithium ones. What about 6V ones? Speak up, because I haven't heard from anyone on this compatiablity issues. Cheers, Wizard From allain at panix.com Sun May 6 20:55:47 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: Trenton State Computer Festival References: <200105062240.f46Meb800764@bg-tc-ppp427.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <002601c0d698$d635d880$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > John -- any idea what the Sun Sparc10's and Sparc20's were > going for... I was going to go and look for some but got too busy with > other stuff. I noticed things in {big} piles, for $5~20 each. Might not've been 20's nor 10's. Uh, Duuuh, what comes after Sparc2? (JA's a Sun moron) Really, I knew Apollo's before Sun and SGI after, kinda missed Suns per se. Seems I learned Unix on everything But a Sun. > Most of the DEC stuff in the area cleared through Trenton over 4 year ago. > The show had tons of PDP8's and PDP11/23's and 11/34's and MicroVaxes > back in the late 80's. But, uV2+'es were New in the late 80's. That's my gripe. The MIT flea mentioned earlier is better in Workstations even though it's 1/4 the size and spread out over several months. John A. From fernande at internet1.net Sun May 6 21:08:40 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: eBay alert: TI 980B mini and a HUGE IBM drive References: Message-ID: <3AF603A8.10B6A201@internet1.net> Exactly! You end up searching for all logical variations, which takes time. Why not take advantage of other people on the list, in helping you. A lot of people here are on Ebay. Someone else may run across something you need or want in there own searches, and think it special enough to post, or maybe they are even the seller. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > Perhaps because it is spelled Bee-bop model 10? From fernande at internet1.net Sun May 6 21:10:16 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: eBay alert: TI 980B mini and a HUGE IBM drive References: Message-ID: <3AF60408.280EDE76@internet1.net> Must you always take everything to the extreme? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Sellam Ismail wrote: > > On Sun, 6 May 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > > > It's called a "search" ;) > > > > Yes, but searches don't pick up everything. Occasionally, when I am > > browsing, I find stuff that I search for, on a regular basis, but it > > didn't come up in my search. The seller either didn't spell something > > correctly, or put it in the wrong category, or added a space in between > > characters or something. It's nice if I am the only person to find it, > > but it isn't nice if I can't find it either! > > Good point. We should invite all sellers on the eBay > Computers:Hardware:Vintage category to post their ads in CC. Better yet, > let's just write some software that sends automatically a message to CC > for every vintage computer item posted. That way, you won't miss > anything. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ibmmacman at midmaine.com Sun May 6 21:27:29 2001 From: ibmmacman at midmaine.com (ibmmac) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: Can I use pc keyboard on a pc jr Message-ID: <000801c0d69d$444bc600$8df8dcd8@k62450> I have an IBM PC Jr that works but don't have the keyboard with it. is there a way to take an old IBM pc keyboard and make an adapter to make it work on the jr ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010506/24cb0e27/attachment.html From owad at applefritter.com Sun May 6 21:36:56 2001 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: Trenton State Computer Festival In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20010507023656.31671@mail.lafayette.edu> >>P.S. Anybody have some cheap 70ns RAM for a DEC 3000? > >BTW, when asking this question you need to specify which DEC 3000 Model >you're refering to. Some will work with standard 72-pin True Parity SIMMs, >others require different RAM. I think it's a DEC 3000/900 (I'm at college and the computer went home, so I haven't really had a chance to look at it yet). At any rate, the RAM is a non-standard size. I belive its 100 pin. I thought I was being clever when I bought a cheap DEC 3000/400 (I think) for the RAM, but it turns out the 400 had 60ns RAM, while my 900 required 70ns. I've probably got some of those numbers wrong as I haven't really had a chance to look at the systems yet, but the gist is the RAM I need is the non-standard variety, probably 100 pin, and needs to be 70ns. Thanks, and sorry about the off-topic post. Tom Applefritter www.applefritter.com From fernande at internet1.net Sun May 6 21:38:15 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:06 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage References: <001d01c0d66b$e485e9c0$88f8fea9@98box> Message-ID: <3AF60A97.715B78EE@internet1.net> Lanny, Someone pulled up next the Fred P. Murrah (spelling) with a Van, Deisel fuel, and fertilizer. The whole place went boom, shall we ban vans, fertilzer, and deisel fuel? It all happened pretty quick too. I say these few common items were more efficent than your shotgun. Guns don't kill people, people kill people! Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Lanny Cox wrote: > > I agree to a point, but a gun is a helluva lot more efficient and lethal > than any of the weapons you mentioned below. The NRA tries to pitch this > sort of idea all the time, but the simple fact is, someone can walk into a > public place with a 12-gauge shotgun and create a big mess in a matter of a > few seconds. > > -Lanny From bdc at world.std.com Sun May 6 21:43:36 2001 From: bdc at world.std.com (Brian Chase) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: Seriously OT: Firearms (was RE: Interesting show on the Computer Garage) In-Reply-To: <001801c0d678$b7e48400$0a00a8c0@azog> Message-ID: Well shit... We all must've taken a wrong term here on the ClassicCmp bus. With all this talk about guns and religion, I feel like I must be in Waco, Texas. -brian. On Sun, 6 May 2001, Billy D'Augustine wrote: > Thank you for the insult. I'm someone who believes that life is sacred, and > I take it from your tone that you see life as a commodity to be wasted. One > day, I will stand before the Lord, and when He asks for an accounting of my > life, I can at least give Him an honest accounting in that regard. "Vengence > is mine" and all that. Extend yourself. > > > > > How does "clueless, irrational nitwit who has never once found their life > in > > danger from violence" strike you? When you've had your life placed in > > danger, > > have access to a firearm and choose not to use -- or threaten to use -- it > > you're welcome to describe this as "inane". Until then you're working > > in a vacuum. I was raised in the city and never thought once about owning > > a firearm. It wasn't until I moved to rural California as was advised by > > the sheriff's department of off-hours response times that I took an > > interest -- > > and I'm glad I did. > > --- Brian Chase | bdc@world.std.com | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ ----- I have a WebTV Minus. It hooks up to my kazoo. -- K. From gene at ehrich.com Sun May 6 21:44:59 2001 From: gene at ehrich.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: Can I use pc keyboard on a pc jr In-Reply-To: <000801c0d69d$444bc600$8df8dcd8@k62450> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010506224355.00ae4100@popmail.voicenet.com> At 10:27 PM 5/6/01 -0400, you wrote: >I have an IBM PC Jr that works but don't have the keyboard with it. >is there a way to take an old IBM pc keyboard and make an adapter to make >it work on the jr ? > You need a special adaptor to attach it. If I remember correctly I got mine from PC Enterprises in Belmar NJ (many years ago). I understand that they are still in business. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- gene@ehrich.com gehrich@tampabay.rr.com P.O. Box 3365 Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365 http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From bdc at world.std.com Sun May 6 21:52:58 2001 From: bdc at world.std.com (Brian Chase) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: Seriously OT: Firearms (was RE: Interesting show on the Computer Garage) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 6 May 2001, R. D. Davis wrote: > On Sun, 6 May 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > I've been wondering why Windoze was left off of the list. While it is > > seldom deadly, it has caused more pain than all of the rest combined. > > Yes, I agree about it having caused more pain. However, could one not > use a broken Windoze CD-ROM as a weapon? Could one not the software > itself to frustrate and annoy someone to death? For example, a > criminal trapping a UNIX hacker in a small room with only a PeeCee > running Windoze for some indefinite period of time. Well, if the hacker is any good and the indefinite period of time is long enough, the scenerio should result in the creation of yet another UNIX-like operating system. -brian. From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sun May 6 21:53:33 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: System 36 Rescue? In-Reply-To: <3AF5ED9F.666DA4C9@home.com> Message-ID: 5632 is a System/36 alright but I don't have the room or funds to have it shipped. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Neil Cherry > Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 7:35 PM > To: classic > Subject: System 36 Rescue? > > > One of my neighbors is tossing a System 36(?) (5632) out in the > trash anyone > interested? It's located in Central NJ (Turnpike 8A, Monroe Twp) and I can > store it for a while. I doubt there is much there and I don't know the > condition. > > -- > Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net > http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) > http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics) > http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ > (SourceForge) From rdd at smart.net Sun May 6 22:02:47 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage In-Reply-To: <3AF60A97.715B78EE@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 May 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > Someone pulled up next the Fred P. Murrah (spelling) with a Van, Deisel > fuel, and fertilizer. The whole place went boom, shall we ban vans, > fertilzer, and deisel fuel? It all happened pretty quick too. I say > these few common items were more efficent than your shotgun. Don't give them ideas... next thing you know, it will be a felony to haul fertilizer with a diesel pick-up truck. > Guns don't kill people, people kill people! True, but some people are incapable of grasping such complicated concepts. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sun May 6 22:07:59 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: Can I use pc keyboard on a pc jr In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010506224355.00ae4100@popmail.voicenet.com> Message-ID: I think PC Enterprises is the only one that's ever made the adapter and they still show that they support the Jr. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Gene Ehrich > Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 9:45 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Can I use pc keyboard on a pc jr > > > At 10:27 PM 5/6/01 -0400, you wrote: > >I have an IBM PC Jr that works but don't have the keyboard with it. > >is there a way to take an old IBM pc keyboard and make an > adapter to make > >it work on the jr ? > > > > You need a special adaptor to attach it. If I remember correctly > I got mine > from PC Enterprises in Belmar NJ (many years ago). I understand that they > are still in business. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > --------------------------- > > gene@ehrich.com > gehrich@tampabay.rr.com > P.O. Box 3365 Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365 > > http://www.voicenet.com/~generic > Computer & Video Game Garage Sale > > > > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 6 22:36:25 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: Trenton State Computer Festival In-Reply-To: <3AF5ECE2.95714CFD@home.com> References: <200105062240.f46Meb800764@bg-tc-ppp427.monmouth.com> <20010506233843.16180@mail.lafayette.edu> Message-ID: >BTW the Sparc-20's were going for $400 complete. I have them in the lab >(at work) so I had no interest in them. Thanks to the Sunblade 100 the prices of the Sparc 5's, 10's and 20's, as well as the Ultra 1's finally seem to be coming down to a slightly more reasonable price. I'm even seeing nice dual processor Ultra 2's for under $2000. If the Sparc 20's were going for $400, then they'd better have either good processors or a monitor included. Of course extra pieces might cost a pretty penny, though I did just pick up some dirt cheap 32MB DIMM's that should work in my Sparc 20 on eBay. What I'd really like to find is a 8MB VSIMM for it, and that costs more than I want to spend. The 100Mbit S-Bus boards will also cost you. Then there is the price of a mounting bracket for HD's, I ended up using a piece of thick cardboard yesterday for a Sparc 5 I'm playing with! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ncherry at home.com Sun May 6 23:01:20 2001 From: ncherry at home.com (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: Trenton State Computer Festival References: <200105062240.f46Meb800764@bg-tc-ppp427.monmouth.com> <20010506233843.16180@mail.lafayette.edu> Message-ID: <3AF61E10.3D4EEC78@home.com> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > >BTW the Sparc-20's were going for $400 complete. I have them in the lab > >(at work) so I had no interest in them. > > Thanks to the Sunblade 100 the prices of the Sparc 5's, 10's and 20's, as > well as the Ultra 1's finally seem to be coming down to a slightly more > reasonable price. I'm even seeing nice dual processor Ultra 2's for under > $2000. If the Sparc 20's were going for $400, then they'd better have > either good processors or a monitor included. They were really complete, monitor, keyboard, disks, memory (all banks) keyboard and I/O. There were loads of IPC, IPC, Sparc 1's and a few Ultra's. -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) From rdd at smart.net Sun May 6 23:09:08 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: Sun Sparc systems and sheet metal (was: Re: Trenton Computer...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 6 May 2001, Zane H. Healy wrote: [someone else [who?] wrote:] > >BTW the Sparc-20's were going for $400 complete. I have them in the lab > >(at work) so I had no interest in them. Any idea you know what CPUs these had in them, such as the faster aftermarket replacements? The US$400 price seems rather high, given that I paid US$75 for a SparcServer 1000 with three CPUs, 768MB of RAM, four hard drives, a CD-ROM drive and a 4mm internal tape drive at the last hamfest... the seller wanted US$100 for it, but I managed to get the price down to a slightly more reasonable level. :-) > reasonable price. I'm even seeing nice dual processor Ultra 2's for under > $2000. If the Sparc 20's were going for $400, then they'd better have > either good processors or a monitor included. Yes... I've seen Sparc 20's with slowish processors and about 32MB of RAM and a 2GB drive selling for under US$50. > Of course extra pieces might cost a pretty penny, though I did just pick up > some dirt cheap 32MB DIMM's that should work in my Sparc 20 on eBay. What > I'd really like to find is a 8MB VSIMM for it, and that costs more than I > want to spend. The 100Mbit S-Bus boards will also cost you. Then there is > the price of a mounting bracket for HD's, I ended up using a piece of thick > cardboard yesterday for a Sparc 5 I'm playing with! Hmmm... you can get some cheap sheet-metal from places that sell heating and air-conditioning equipment. A few years ago, back around 1980, one of them even bent the metal for me to form a cover for a sound sythesizer switch panel. An added bounus: the metal was galvanized, so I never had to paint it. :-) -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From jpl15 at panix.com Sun May 6 23:29:08 2001 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: OT (guns) Delete now; don't read... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: To further the response of Chris Kennedy: I too lived for many years in a very rural area, where response time of any emergency organization was seldom under 10 minutes average. many times more like 1/2 hour. That's just the way it was. On a very US/California centric note... five years ago my friend and his wife were awakened at 2:30 am by a person in their bedroom. When my friend switched on the light, this person immediately attacked him with a 2' long machete, luckily the first swing missed and it embedded itself in the furniture. My friend pulled out his 9mm from the bedstand and fired once, striking the individual in the right thigh, dropping him. Wife had called 911 (the American universal emergency number) and in under two minutes, police were there. There very first thing the officer said to my completely traumatized and shocked friend was "You shoulda plugged this joker. If he lives, it's gonna get ugly." The 'joker' was/is a Guatemalan national, in this country illegally,with a long string of arrests and deportations for drugs, theft, and armed assaults, including one suspected murder which lacked conclusive evidence. The individual was duly tried and convicted for attempted muder, breaking and entering, and possession of narcotics in 'for sale' quantities, and is now in the California correction system doing 25 years minimum, more likey 40. He is also suing my friend for $5.5 Million dollars for shooting him and shortening his leg by two inches. This individual is represented gratis by a huge legal organization run by 'immigrant' lawyers who specialize in aid to Hispanics. My friend is on the hook for hundreds of thousands of dollars, just to *defend himself*, which he will never recover, and the legal prognosis is very poor for him. The guy who tried to kill my friend for PCP money is undoubdtedly going to win the judgement against the 'defendant', and even if he gets out of jail in California, and gets sent back to Guatemala... I guess you could say he 'won'. 5 Mil goes a long way in Central America. I hold all life sacred, and it's not up to me to judge another's life or conduct. But I have also been in life-threatening situations, and a few of those threats came directly from other humans who did not wish me well at that particular moment. Those of you who decry the ownership of handguns quite possible will feel differently, should (Ghod forbid!) you ever find yourself in that horrible position. obClassiccmp: maybe thieves will break in to steal that Apple I you've been advertising on eBay.... then what will you do? ;} Cheerz Sheriff John From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 6 23:33:32 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: System 36 Rescue? In-Reply-To: System 36 Rescue? (Neil Cherry) References: <3AF5ED9F.666DA4C9@home.com> Message-ID: <15094.9628.535934.894698@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 6, Neil Cherry wrote: > One of my neighbors is tossing a System 36(?) (5632) out in the trash anyone > interested? It's located in Central NJ (Turnpike 8A, Monroe Twp) and I can > store it for a while. I doubt there is much there and I don't know the > condition. About how large is this system? I might be able to give it a home within the next couple of weeks. -Dave McGuire From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sun May 6 23:57:23 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: OT (guns) Delete now; don't read... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That's why I've always shot for the vital areas (chest-center and head) even when on the range as an AF law enforcement cop. None of this "minimal force required to subdue" crap. If they have a 2 ft machete or a 9mm Ruger they'll likely not be around to try it again. Of course I give them the benefit of the doubt and try to cover as much as possible until it is clear of the intent of the perp. If he or she is out to do me in then it's my duty to the public and (especially) myself to end this for good. Luckily I never had occasion to get into a situation mike that in the AF while I was in as an LE but nearly had a problem when I was assigned as a missile tech assigned as sentry while we opened a nuke storage building to find an unknown source firing .223 (M16 rounds essentially) at us from the woods surrounding the area. Luckily the security police that handled the area also had both .223 and grenade launchers (where i had a 12 gauge shotgun with OO buck) were able to stop the firing by seting a few non-lethal gas grenades into the woods where the firing was coming from (this was in 1984 in upstate NY, not Vietnam) and no one was ever found or suspected. Any of us on the crew could have easily been tken out by whatever idiot was playing "scare the GI" that day. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of John Lawson > Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 11:29 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: OT (guns) Delete now; don't read... > > > > To further the response of Chris Kennedy: I too lived for many years in a > very rural area, where response time of any emergency organization was > seldom under 10 minutes average. many times more like 1/2 hour. That's > just the way it was. > > On a very US/California centric note... five years ago my friend and his > wife were awakened at 2:30 am by a person in their bedroom. When my friend > switched on the light, this person immediately attacked him with a 2' > long machete, luckily the first swing missed and it embedded itself in the > furniture. My friend pulled out his 9mm from the bedstand and fired once, > striking the individual in the right thigh, dropping him. Wife had called > 911 (the American universal emergency number) and in under two minutes, > police were there. There very first thing the officer said to my > completely traumatized and shocked friend was "You shoulda plugged this > joker. If he lives, it's gonna get ugly." > > The 'joker' was/is a Guatemalan national, in this country > illegally,with a long string of arrests and deportations for drugs, theft, > and armed assaults, including one suspected murder which lacked conclusive > evidence. The individual was duly tried and convicted for attempted > muder, breaking and entering, and possession of narcotics in 'for sale' > quantities, and is now in the California correction system doing 25 years > minimum, more likey 40. > > He is also suing my friend for $5.5 Million dollars for shooting him and > shortening his leg by two inches. This individual is represented gratis > by a huge legal organization run by 'immigrant' lawyers who specialize in > aid to Hispanics. My friend is on the hook for hundreds of thousands of > dollars, just to *defend himself*, which he will never recover, and the > legal prognosis is very poor for him. The guy who tried to kill my friend > for PCP money is undoubdtedly going to win the judgement against the > 'defendant', and even if he gets out of jail in California, and gets sent > back to Guatemala... I guess you could say he 'won'. 5 Mil goes a long > way in Central America. > > I hold all life sacred, and it's not up to me to judge another's life or > conduct. But I have also been in life-threatening situations, and a few of > those threats came directly from other humans who did not wish me well at > that particular moment. Those of you who decry the ownership of handguns > quite possible will feel differently, should (Ghod forbid!) you ever find > yourself in that horrible position. > > obClassiccmp: maybe thieves will break in to steal that Apple I you've > been advertising on eBay.... then what will you do? > > ;} > > Cheerz > > Sheriff John > > From fernande at internet1.net Mon May 7 00:54:07 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage References: Message-ID: <3AF6387F.AB8A7CC0@internet1.net> Well, if it saves lives, we probably should make diesel illegal all together, we could easily turn to grain alcohol as fuel. Although, that would certainly up the demand for fertilizer, so maybe we should all walk :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA "R. D. Davis" wrote: > Don't give them ideas... next thing you know, it will be a felony to > haul fertilizer with a diesel pick-up truck. From jss at ou.edu Mon May 7 00:55:49 2001 From: jss at ou.edu (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: eBay alert: TI 980B mini and a HUGE IBM drive In-Reply-To: <3AF603A8.10B6A201@internet1.net> References: <3AF603A8.10B6A201@internet1.net> Message-ID: <989214949.3af638e582fa5@email.ou.edu> Quoting Chad Fernandez : > Exactly! You end up searching for all logical variations, which > takes time. I agree. I don't think anyone is advocating the advertising of every C:H:V auction here; I think the idea is that if there is something unusual or exceptionally rare that someone has found, we would be better off if we knew about it. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@ou.edu From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon May 7 01:10:15 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: Memory. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010506230911.00a05830@mail.zipcon.net> Is there anyone out there that needs 4164 or 41256 (64Kx1 and 256Kx1) DIP ram? I'm going through some of my old stuff and found some sleeves of 64 and 256K drams. From jss at ou.edu Mon May 7 01:15:04 2001 From: jss at ou.edu (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage In-Reply-To: <3AF60A97.715B78EE@internet1.net> References: <001d01c0d66b$e485e9c0$88f8fea9@98box> <3AF60A97.715B78EE@internet1.net> Message-ID: <989216104.3af63d681f7ac@email.ou.edu> Many apologies for perpetuating this thread, but I had to respond to this one, even if my response is as inane as its parent. Quoting Chad Fernandez : > Someone pulled up next the Fred P. Murrah (spelling) with a Van, > Deisel fuel, and fertilizer. _Alfred_ P. Murrah I really wish everyone would just forget about that incident. I live in Oklahoma, and to this day the sentimentalizing just will not stop. It's why I stopped watching the local news media except for when the @#$! sirens are blowing. No, I don't want to donate money to build some useless memorial. No, I don't want to go see the useless memorial. No, I don't want to read this book or that book about it. No, I don't want to observe 168 seconds of silence. People die; get over it. I think the funniest thing about the whole ordeal was when, in the early news coverage, the reporters were saying that the, um, 'authorities' suspected two middle-eastern men were to blame. I don't want to know how our middle-eastern community felt about our trigger-happy idiot reporters when they discovered it was just some fellow hicks with a truck full of farm products. OK, I'll shut up now. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@ou.edu From foo at siconic.com Mon May 7 00:17:18 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: Trenton State Computer Festival In-Reply-To: <20010506233843.16180@mail.lafayette.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 May 2001, Tom Owad wrote: > >Most of the DEC stuff in the area cleared through Trenton over 4 year ago. > >The show had tons of PDP8's and PDP11/23's and 11/34's and MicroVaxes > >back in the late 80's. > > I found the show disappointing. It wasn't nearly as good as previous > years - and I can't tell you how many times the dealers told me how much > they could get for the item I was interested in on eBay. (Hint: more > than I was willing to pay.) I get this from time to time from sellers at local ham fests. I respond something to the effect that if they want to get the eBay price then they should sell it on eBay, but I don't see the point of them having gone through all the trouble of packing their stuff up and hauling it down to a parking lot to stew all day in the sun and refuse a reasonable offer. I also then remind them of how much work it is to pack, label and ship the item to the buyer and ask them to calculate how much their time is worth to them. At that point the sensible sellers will see it my way and give into my offer. The assholes will go home with the item and maybe successfully sell it on eBay. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Mon May 7 00:22:22 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: eBay alert: TI 980B mini and a HUGE IBM drive In-Reply-To: <3AF60408.280EDE76@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 May 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > Must you always take everything to the extreme? It's not the extreme, but merely the logical conclusion of your line of reasoning. > > > > It's called a "search" ;) > > > > > > Yes, but searches don't pick up everything. Occasionally, when I am > > > browsing, I find stuff that I search for, on a regular basis, but it > > > didn't come up in my search. The seller either didn't spell something > > > correctly, or put it in the wrong category, or added a space in between > > > characters or something. It's nice if I am the only person to find it, > > > but it isn't nice if I can't find it either! > > > > Good point. We should invite all sellers on the eBay > > Computers:Hardware:Vintage category to post their ads in CC. Better yet, > > let's just write some software that sends automatically a message to CC > > for every vintage computer item posted. That way, you won't miss > > anything. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Mon May 7 00:24:45 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage In-Reply-To: <3AF60A97.715B78EE@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 May 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > Someone pulled up next the Fred P. Murrah (spelling) with a Van, > Deisel fuel, and fertilizer. The whole place went boom, shall we ban > vans, fertilzer, and deisel fuel? It all happened pretty quick too. > I say these few common items were more efficent than your shotgun. Actually, I think selling sufficient quantities of fertilizer and fuel oil to create such a bomb in the United States *is* banned. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From fernande at internet1.net Mon May 7 01:52:27 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage References: Message-ID: <3AF6462B.33CDE2E1@internet1.net> I am sure that most farmers use more fertilizer and diesel fuel than what was in that truck. In other words, I don't think that the amounts they had would have been unusual. If I recall it was just a box van they used, nothing really that huge. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Sellam Ismail wrote: > Actually, I think selling sufficient quantities of fertilizer and fuel oil > to create such a bomb in the United States *is* banned. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From fernande at internet1.net Mon May 7 01:55:31 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage References: <001d01c0d66b$e485e9c0$88f8fea9@98box> <3AF60A97.715B78EE@internet1.net> <989216104.3af63d681f7ac@email.ou.edu> Message-ID: <3AF646E3.9E3B1181@internet1.net> "Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote: > _Alfred_ P. Murrah Oops, I new it didn't look right when I wrote it. > > I really wish everyone would just forget about that incident. Forget it? Should we forget everyother bad thing that has happened? Maybe the various wars we have fought? I understand about getting tired of hearing about something, but I don't think we should forget about events in history. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From terryc at woa.com.au Mon May 7 02:38:01 2001 From: terryc at woa.com.au (Terry Collins) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage References: Message-ID: <3AF650D9.ABDCD0C5@woa.com.au> Sellam Ismail wrote: > > On Sun, 6 May 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > > Someone pulled up next the Fred P. Murrah (spelling) with a Van, > > Deisel fuel, and fertilizer. The whole place went boom, shall we ban > > vans, fertilzer, and deisel fuel? It all happened pretty quick too. > > I say these few common items were more efficent than your shotgun. > > Actually, I think selling sufficient quantities of fertilizer and fuel oil > to create such a bomb in the United States *is* banned. Oh, I should be punished for perpetuating this crap, but just couldn't resist. Farm owning uncle's favourite method of removing tree stumps is blasting them with this mixture of Ammonium sulphate(?) and diesel. If done properly, it produces firewood of the right size for the cooker, heater and open fireplace. As he recounts it the first time they tried it out, they had absolutely no idea of the quantities to used and so tried a bucketful of fertilizer/diesel mix, which was poured into hole in stump, add blasting cap and light (?). After their ears stopped ringing, they agreed it was perhaps a tad excessive as not a splinter of wood remained within the paddock. Nowadays they just use the 1,2,4, handful approach. -- Terry Collins {:-)}}} Ph(02) 4627 2186 Fax(02) 4628 7861 email: terryc@woa.com.au www: http://www.woa.com.au WOA Computer Services "People without trees are like fish without clean water" From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon May 7 02:56:43 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: Seriously OT: Firearms (was RE: Interesting show on the Computer Garage) In-Reply-To: References: <003001c0d663$6b102360$0a00a8c0@azog> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010507004805.034cf790@208.226.86.10> At 01:07 PM 5/6/01 -0700, Chris wrote: >What you need to do is figure out why people consider homicide a reasonable >act and do something about _that_. This is so reasonable I didn't expect it :-). Which society would you rather live in? One where you were so afraid of everyone else that you couldn't allow anyone to own a gun, or one where everyone owned a gun and you weren't afraid they would try to kill you with it? Wake up people, if you can't bring yourself to realize your fear of "guns" is really a fear of your fellow person trying to kill you, then you will waste all your time and money and energy trying to ban a SYMBOL and ignore the PROBLEM. In Los Angeles a guy walks in to a school and kills 2 with a handgun and injures another. Front page news and continuing coverage for a week. TWO WEEKS later another guy purposefully drives his Cadillac into an Jewish retirement home and kills SEVEN because he "hates jews." Didn't even make the front page, and no one suggested "car control laws." Get rid of people who thing killing a fellow human being is a reasonable course of action and gun control is a non-issue. Getting rid of guns will only force those looney tunes to use other (often more effective) techniques to kill you. Sigh, --Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon May 7 03:06:56 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: Trenton State Computer Festival In-Reply-To: <20010506233843.16180@mail.lafayette.edu> References: <200105062240.f46Meb800764@bg-tc-ppp427.monmouth.com> <200105062240.f46Meb800764@bg-tc-ppp427.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010507010347.022364d0@208.226.86.10> At 07:38 PM 5/6/01 -0400, you wrote: >... I can't tell you how many times the dealers told me how much >they could get for the item I was interested in on eBay. (Hint: more >than I was willing to pay.) Having sold stuff on E-bay I usually respond to this: "So you want to wait three to ten days, maybe get more maybe less, wait for some payment, or maybe not, and box it up and get it mailed, and then deal with the jerks who either don't pay or claim you mislead them, and then deal with the mail system going south or Ebay goes down. What are you a masochist? I'll give you $X for this and it will walk away on its own power and you'll have coin in your pocket. So what's it going to be?" --Chuck From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon May 7 02:43:20 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: Trenton State Computer Festival In-Reply-To: <20010506233843.16180@mail.lafayette.edu> References: <200105062240.f46Meb800764@bg-tc-ppp427.monmouth.com> <200105062240.f46Meb800764@bg-tc-ppp427.monmouth.com> Message-ID: > and a nice SCSI floppy drive for the Mac for $5. A Daynafile or something else? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon May 7 02:40:30 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: eBay alert: TI 980B mini and a HUGE IBM drive In-Reply-To: References: <3AF59706.9DCF9298@internet1.net> Message-ID: >> characters or something. It's nice if I am the only person to find it, >> but it isn't nice if I can't find it either! > >Good point. We should invite all sellers on the eBay Don't be such a dick, commentary on the issue far outweighs any actual posting, go elsewhere to find a problem. See how much better being nice works? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon May 7 02:51:16 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: Seriously OT: Firearms (was RE: Interesting show on the Computer Garage) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Can we get back ON TOPIC and talk old computers, such as how to coax a dead >mac portable to power up? I have one and can get a cracking sound out of the >speaker but nothing else. My first suspect is often the pram battery or the main battery. If you mean the original mac portable the main battery and/or PS are always suspect. BTW an idea I have for the portable is to rebuild the battery using fairly large capacitors instead of cells, maybe with some sort of current limiting. The idea is that the batteries will ALWAYS ultimately be a PITA, and that if I resign myself to always using the AC adapter all I really need is a bit of smoothing and kick to get the hard drive spinning. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon May 7 02:57:36 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: Mac Portable (Was Re: Seriously OT: Firearms) In-Reply-To: <20010507015510.GSRR16174.tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> References: Message-ID: >Yes, that 3.6V AA1/2 is rare and OVERPRICED around here. 16.xx to >20 ea CDN. Still searching for cheaper sources in canada. Must it I buy them for about a buck at the swapmeet, maybe not brand brand new, but not used and typically within the expected 5 year or so shelf life. Plenty of people sell them new on Ebay for $6, so I don't bother. I will mention that I still have a few hunderd of the 4.5v alkalines for $5 or less in quantity. From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon May 7 04:31:56 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: Can I use pc keyboard on a pc jr In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010506224355.00ae4100@popmail.voicenet.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010506224355.00ae4100@popmail.voicenet.com> Message-ID: >At 10:27 PM 5/6/01 -0400, you wrote: >>I have an IBM PC Jr that works but don't have the keyboard with it. >>is there a way to take an old IBM pc keyboard and make an adapter >>to make it work on the jr ? >> > >You need a special adaptor to attach it. If I remember correctly I >got mine from PC Enterprises in Belmar NJ (many years ago). I >understand that they are still in business. They are still in business but not too quick to answer inquiries about such items. The Tandy 1000/IBM PCjr catalogs are still shown online though and supposedly they have some of that stuff still in a wharehouse. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ncherry at home.com Mon May 7 05:47:42 2001 From: ncherry at home.com (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: System 36 Rescue? References: <3AF5ED9F.666DA4C9@home.com> <15094.9628.535934.894698@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3AF67D4E.37F04CF4@home.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > > On May 6, Neil Cherry wrote: > > One of my neighbors is tossing a System 36(?) (5632) out in the trash anyone > > interested? It's located in Central NJ (Turnpike 8A, Monroe Twp) and I can > > store it for a while. I doubt there is much there and I don't know the > > condition. > > About how large is this system? I might be able to give it a home > within the next couple of weeks. > > -Dave McGuire It's just the CPU nothing else. -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) From foo at siconic.com Mon May 7 05:41:22 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: O F F _ T O P I C Re: Interesting show on the Computer Garage In-Reply-To: <989216104.3af63d681f7ac@email.ou.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 May 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > I really wish everyone would just forget about that incident. I live > in Oklahoma, and to this day the sentimentalizing just will not stop. > It's why I stopped watching the local news media except for when the > @#$! sirens are blowing. No, I don't want to donate money to build > some useless memorial. No, I don't want to go see the useless > memorial. No, I don't want to read this book or that book about it. > No, I don't want to observe 168 seconds of silence. People die; get > over it. I think this is being a bit callous, Jeff. It's hard to forget tragedy on this magnitude. That's why we still see shows on TV about World Wars I & II, the Holocaust, the Titanic, etc. > I think the funniest thing about the whole ordeal was when, in the > early news coverage, the reporters were saying that the, um, > 'authorities' suspected two middle-eastern men were to blame. I don't > want to know how our middle-eastern community felt about our > trigger-happy idiot reporters when they discovered it was just some > fellow hicks with a truck full of farm products. It was the first time I was ever compelled enough to bother sending mail to . Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Mon May 7 05:43:32 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: O F F - T O P I C Re: Interesting show on the Computer Garage In-Reply-To: <3AF6462B.33CDE2E1@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 May 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > I am sure that most farmers use more fertilizer and diesel fuel than > what was in that truck. In other words, I don't think that the amounts > they had would have been unusual. If I recall it was just a box van > they used, nothing really that huge. But I do believe some sort of controls are now in place when people are attempting to buy large quantities of the stuff, which was prompted by the Murrah Building explosion. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Mon May 7 05:49:22 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: eBay alert: TI 980B mini and a HUGE IBM drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 7 May 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > >> characters or something. It's nice if I am the only person to find it, > >> but it isn't nice if I can't find it either! > > > >Good point. We should invite all sellers on the eBay > > Don't be such a dick, commentary on the issue far outweighs any actual > posting, go elsewhere to find a problem. Might as well complain now and cut a big fart over it before a flood of eBay auction postings start showing up. There's a time to be nice, and a time to be a dick, and on this issue I choose to be a heat-seeking moisture missile. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From owad at applefritter.com Mon May 7 07:13:15 2001 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: Trenton State Computer Festival In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20010507121315.348@mail.lafayette.edu> >> and a nice SCSI floppy drive for the Mac for $5. > >A Daynafile or something else? Someting else. It was a 1.4 MB 3.5" drive with 25pin SCSI ports The dealer claimed it was to hoook a second floppy drive up to a Mac without a floppy drive port, though the picture on the box cover (no manual includeded) showed it with a compact Mac. I'll tell you the brand and what more I can make of it when I get home on Friday. Tom Applefritter www.applefritter.com From chomko at greenbelt.com Mon May 7 07:27:53 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: D-116 Digital Computer Controls - minicomputer Message-ID: <3AF694C9.4E302E07@greenbelt.com> Has anyone ever heard of such a thing. I dug out a manual and a book on the system, and remember working on one years ago. The books are dated 1972-3. The company is out of New Jersey. Anyone one know anything about the D-116 system or about the fate of the company: DCC? Eric From optimus at canit.se Sun May 6 19:45:23 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <959.527T1150T1055043optimus@canit.se> R. D. Davis skrev: >How can anyone be so naieve as to think that nearly anything else >besides a gun can't be used as a lethal weapon? >What's next? A ban on water, computer monitors, screwdrivers, garden >shears, pillows, rocks, power cords, knives, pencils, glass jars, >assorted cooking utensils, potatos, various herbs and other plants, >tree branches, heavy books, a box of greenbar paper, monkey wrench, >darts and test-equipment probes for a start? What a really stupid analogy. Screwdrivers and garden shears are not weapons, they are tools which may be used as weapons. Guns, however, are made for the express purpose of killing people, and the only other function they have is that of a really lousy/dangerous hammer. Next time, please don't be so stupid. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. /* And you'll never guess what the dog had */ /* in its mouth... */ --Larry Wall in stab.c from the perl source code From optimus at canit.se Mon May 7 08:24:53 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: Florida Ballot Machines to be Auctioned In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <596.527T2650T8646115optimus@canit.se> Vintage Computer Festival skrev: >Palm Beach to Auction Voting Machines > Palm Beach County is selling the voting machines at the center of last >year's chad debate to help pay for more modern voting equipment. I thought the whole problem stemmed from the usage of "modern" equipment. A booth and a pencil is all you really need to vote. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Kimagure Orange Road inneh?ller v?ldigt mycket ton?rsromantik, extremt mycket ton?rsromantik faktiskt. Men det ?r samtidigt en av de st?rsta klassikerna inom shojo, kanske till och med den absolut st?rsta. - Animanga.nu From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Sun May 6 20:44:20 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage In-Reply-To: <01050614323401.08768@fatty> References: <3AF56009.2355B2ED@timharrison.com> <200105051613.MAA02417@wordstock.com> <01050519240201.00787@fatty> <3AF56009.2355B2ED@timharrison.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010506214420.006a6664@obregon.multi.net.co> At 02:27 PM 5/6/01 -0400, you wrote: >I live 1 1/2 hours from Toronto and love going by car or boat. Great city but >there are three numbers that would keep me from living there. > >4 0 1 > >You guys are drowning in cars. I lived in upstate NY for quite a while and really enjoyed the many trips to Toronto. But I have to agree with this. Carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From azog at azog.org Mon May 7 07:42:40 2001 From: azog at azog.org (Billy D'Augustine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: Trenton State Computer Festival In-Reply-To: <20010507121315.348@mail.lafayette.edu> Message-ID: By the way, I've only seen a few people mention TFC, and I'm wondering who all went? I went, and met a friend of mine (who also subscribes), but I personally didn't pick anything up. The only thing I saw that would catch my eye was what looked like a well-abused VAX 4000. Whoever here got the RA92(s), I think it at the same guy. From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Mon May 7 06:57:55 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage In-Reply-To: <3AF6387F.AB8A7CC0@internet1.net> References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010507075755.00e08d00@obregon.multi.net.co> At 01:54 AM 5/7/01 -0400, you wrote: >Well, if it saves lives, we probably should make diesel illegal all >together, we could easily turn to grain alcohol as fuel. Although, that >would certainly up the demand for fertilizer, so maybe we should all >walk :-) >Chad Fernandez >Michigan, USA Considering the US share of CO2 emissions, this is actually the greatest idea coming out of this thread. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon May 7 08:44:50 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: Florida Ballot Machines to be Auctioned In-Reply-To: <596.527T2650T8646115optimus@canit.se> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010507094037.00a32210@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 02:24 PM 5/7/01 +0100, you wrote: >Vintage Computer Festival skrev: > > >Palm Beach to Auction Voting Machines > > > Palm Beach County is selling the voting machines at the center of last > >year's chad debate to help pay for more modern voting equipment. > >I thought the whole problem stemmed from the usage of "modern" equipment. A >booth and a pencil is all you really need to vote. Ha! You're assuming that they can read and write in English. MANY of them can't. A lot of them can't read or write ANY in any language. As far as I'm concerned, if they can't figure out how to use a voting machine then they have no business voting and their vote shouldn't count anyway. Frustrated Florida taxpayer that will have to help pay for all those new voting machines, Joe >-- >En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > >Kimagure Orange Road inneh?ller v?ldigt mycket ton?rsromantik, extremt mycket >ton?rsromantik faktiskt. Men det ?r samtidigt en av de st?rsta klassikerna >inom shojo, kanske till och med den absolut st?rsta. > - Animanga.nu From claudew at videotron.ca Mon May 7 09:06:01 2001 From: claudew at videotron.ca (Claude.W) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: Trenton State Computer Festival References: Message-ID: <005d01c0d6fe$d9020780$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> Well... > I get this from time to time from sellers at local ham fests. I respond > something to the effect that if they want to get the eBay price then they > should sell it on eBay, but I don't see the point of them having gone Ah! I agree 100%....If you want ebay price, go try sell it on ebay with all the hassles attached... > through all the trouble of packing their stuff up and hauling it down to a > parking lot to stew all day in the sun and refuse a reasonable offer. I > also then remind them of how much work it is to pack, label and ship the > item to the buyer and ask them to calculate how much their time is worth > to them. At that point the sensible sellers will see it my way and give > into my offer. The assholes will go home with the item and maybe > successfully sell it on eBay. Always baffeld by the kinda stuff I see at hamfests. Some ot this stuff is in so bad shape, I would be ashamed to display it in front of me... I can't understand people "holding on" to their stuff when they go to a hamfests and hauling it back in the car or van...It just damages the stuff, the car etc... I go to one hamfest per year with a bunch of people from work (all electronic techs) we go there to get RID not RICH! I often finish off the day writing "GRATUIT" (free in french) and just giving the stuf away if it's still on my table...Around 11:00 - 12:00 I often do a "TAKE IT ALL FOR $10"...this usually includes several computers, monitors and other stuff...no scratch, dented junk... Claude http://computer_collector.tripod.com From bpope at wordstock.com Mon May 7 09:08:45 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage In-Reply-To: from "Russ Blakeman" at May 5, 01 11:34:12 am Message-ID: <200105071408.KAA26855@wordstock.com> I just talked to my parents yesterday, they said all the igloos had melted. The government is working on an assistance program to bring in snow and ice from the Upper North. Take off hoser! :-P Bryan > > Well how is it? (grin) > > > > > Canuk = Canadian, eh! > > > > > > Americans!! grrr... next thing you will be asking "How is your > > igloo these > > days?" > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Bryan > > > > > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon May 7 09:24:55 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: Seriously OT: Firearms (was RE: Interesting show on the Computer Garage) In-Reply-To: <001801c0d678$b7e48400$0a00a8c0@azog> Message-ID: > day, I will stand before the Lord, and when He asks for an accounting of my > life, I can at least give Him an honest accounting in that regard. "Vengence Ok, I second the "clueless, irrational nitwit" comment. *snaps fingers* "Ok buddy, out of the Gene Pool." *sigh* > > > > How does "clueless, irrational nitwit who has never once found their life > in > > danger from violence" strike you? When you've had your life placed in g. From chris at mainecoon.com Mon May 7 09:20:46 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: D-116 Digital Computer Controls - minicomputer In-Reply-To: <3AF694C9.4E302E07@greenbelt.com> Message-ID: Eric wrote: > Has anyone ever heard of such a thing. I dug out a manual and a book on > the system, and remember > working on one years ago. The books are dated 1972-3. The company is out > of New Jersey. Anyone one know anything about the D-116 system or about > the fate of the company: DCC? The D-116 is essentially a jumbo-chassis DG Nova 830 clone; like the similar offering from Keronix it has a programmatic option to double the size of the address space (from 32KW to 64KW) by limiting indirection to one level (second and subsequent levels of indirection in the Nova were indicated by having the high bit of the intermediate word fetched set, thus effectively limiting addresses to 15 bits) I have no idea what happened to DCC; Keronix (who manufactured far nicer memory boards for the Nova than DG) exited the business when their manufacturing plant burned to the ground, an act sometimes referred to as the consequence of "DeCastro Lightening" I have a D-116 sitting in the projects pile just now. It looks like an ugly Nova, right down to the incredibly poor mechanical engineering. Keronix was much more original and did nice work in the MechE department, including the ability to access the card cage without having to pull the machine out of the rack. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Mon May 7 10:23:23 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: Ebay ads on classicmp In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 7 May 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 7 May 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > > > >> characters or something. It's nice if I am the only person to find it, > > >> but it isn't nice if I can't find it either! > > > > > >Good point. We should invite all sellers on the eBay > > > > Don't be such a dick, commentary on the issue far outweighs any actual > > posting, go elsewhere to find a problem. > > Might as well complain now and cut a big fart over it before a flood of > eBay auction postings start showing up. > > There's a time to be nice, and a time to be a dick, and on this issue I > choose to be a heat-seeking moisture missile. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > In the absence of procrustean rules and moderation, which are the last things I want to see here, I agree with Mike on this. It can at least provide some positive incentive. I do concur with your general premise. I'm sure most posters of Ebay ads to various mailing lists, Usenet, etc. are trying to be helpful, but more than the odd relvant notice or two amounts to shilling for Ebay sellers, and has nothing to do with the purpose of the list. I hate to use the "s" word, because it has come to mean just something that annoys somebody, but it has the potential to be a DOS attack, whether intended or not. I certainly don't benefit from it, and I don't think most anyone else here does, either. There are discussion boards on Ebay for this kind of thing. I would encourage people to use them. And encourage Ebay to come up with a more intelligent or useful search engine, jbdigriz From bpope at wordstock.com Mon May 7 09:23:43 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage In-Reply-To: <3AF49480.465E5C13@timharrison.com> from "Tim Harrison" at May 5, 01 08:02:08 pm Message-ID: <200105071423.KAA29495@wordstock.com> > > > Bryan > > > > You and me both. Everywhere from London through to Sault Ste. Marie has > been home. Now, I'm living (again) with my American wife in New York. > Computing-wise, living in either country hasn't been a problem. When we > moved back to Toronto, I just shipped things across the border. Now we > have one less step in acquiring stuff, even though, I'm about to do a > massive paring down of the collective. I need the space back, and I've > gotten the "I never had any toys when I was young, and now I can have > everything!" phase out of my system. Time to focus on the few machines > that I really want. > New York! ewwww.... I am from Ingersoll, a little town (Pop. 9500) I now live in the suburbs of Boston and am very happy that I do *not* commute into Boston! But New York... I went there once.. Smelly from all the garbage and then you try to drive there. HA! Cheers, Bryan From jfoust at threedee.com Mon May 7 09:23:01 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: eBay alert: TI 980B mini and a HUGE IBM drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010507091934.01f012a0@pc> At 11:06 PM 5/5/01 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: >How about avoiding this nonsense and making things available to the list >first before posting them to eBay? It sure would be much nicer. I'd hate >to see ClassicCmp become a damn ad board for eBay. Yeah, what we really need are more college-beer-drinking debates about economics and value and markets and "street" price. I don't really know what "making things available" could mean except more irrelevant discussion and accidental "whoops I meant that to be my private bid" posts. Posting "first taker gets it" messages only rewards those of us without a life who can afford to read e-mail all day. Items disappear in minutes this way. There once was a mailing list operated by someone here for auction and for-sale announcements - where did it go? - John From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon May 7 09:41:50 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:07 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage In-Reply-To: <959.527T1150T1055043optimus@canit.se> References: Message-ID: >What a really stupid analogy. Screwdrivers and garden shears are not weapons, >they are tools which may be used as weapons. Guns, however, are made for the >express purpose of killing people, and the only other function they have is >that of a really lousy/dangerous hammer. >Next time, please don't be so stupid. Please take your own advice. The only thing unique about a gun is that if you use one you are sure to get in the newspapers if not TV, and maybe that they are very good tools for what they do requiring little skill etc. From allain at panix.com Mon May 7 10:08:17 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: Trenton State Computer Festival References: <005d01c0d6fe$d9020780$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> Message-ID: <01bb01c0d707$a8cb1bc0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Supposedly at the end of the TCF, 4:00pm Sunday, (I didn't stay past 1) they have a dumpster party where there are a couple of free dumpsters for the sellers leftovers (nice touch) and those others that want to go in for a dive are permitted to do so. BTW Saturday is superior to Sunday as far as number of sellers, and sunday had no New sellers from what I could see. The RA92's were still there so I had my hands full with two & a shoulderbag. Thanks DEC, for putting the handles on them. Other stuff: A HP 9000, undescribable by owner, an HP MO jukebox, 3 IIe's, decent 40% off books, monster supply of Pakistani steel handtools (think I got 8). John A. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 7 10:24:48 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: Sun Sparc systems and sheet metal (was: Re: Trenton Computer...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Any idea you know what CPUs these had in them, such as the faster >aftermarket replacements? The US$400 price seems rather high, given >that I paid US$75 for a SparcServer 1000 with three CPUs, 768MB of RAM, >four hard drives, a CD-ROM drive and a 4mm internal tape drive at the >last hamfest... the seller wanted US$100 for it, but I managed to get >the price down to a slightly more reasonable level. :-) OK, obviously you're in a lot less of a Sparc poor area than some of us! The only Sun stuff I've seen at the local swap meet is some manuals, QIC-150's, and a couple CD's. The only hardware I've found in the last few years was some Sparc 2's at the local scrapper, and some dead 1962 monitors at a couple places. That leaves ePay. Though I did hear one of the guys one of my neighbors works with found some Sparc 10's at a Goodwill on the other side of town. I know there are companies that use them in the area, but it could be there like the one I work for and are still using them all, we're using Sparc 2's for certain jobs (even know of one computer room with a IPC). I was walking through one of our computer rooms that I'd not been in for a long time a few weeks ago, I couldn't believe the huge number of Sparc 10's that we're still using! >Yes... I've seen Sparc 20's with slowish processors and about 32MB of >RAM and a 2GB drive selling for under US$50. Wow! I'd love to see them at that price. Of course I think my Sparc 20 with dual SM71's and a CD-ROM (no RAM or S-Bus cards) only cost me $150 on eBay, but it was listed such that it looked like a bare base. >Hmmm... you can get some cheap sheet-metal from places that sell >heating and air-conditioning equipment. A few years ago, back around >1980, one of them even bent the metal for me to form a cover for a >sound sythesizer switch panel. An added bounus: the metal was >galvanized, so I never had to paint it. :-) I cheated, and just stuck a sheet of cardboard under the drive, with screws in the bottom holes of the drive, the combo is enough to get it to the height of the SCA connector, my only concern being if the drive vibrations are enough to loosen the connection over time and have it unplug itself. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From fernande at internet1.net Mon May 7 10:27:14 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: Trenton State Computer Festival References: <200105062240.f46Meb800764@bg-tc-ppp427.monmouth.com> <200105062240.f46Meb800764@bg-tc-ppp427.monmouth.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20010507010347.022364d0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <3AF6BED2.7924B06B@internet1.net> The closets I get to a swap meet is the local computer show, sometimes the used content is pretty high. It is all PC based, of course. I haven't had anybody give me the Ebay line, but I'll remember your approach Chuck.... it makes sence to me :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Chuck McManis wrote: > Having sold stuff on E-bay I usually respond to this: > "So you want to wait three to ten days, maybe get more > maybe less, wait for some payment, or maybe not, and > box it up and get it mailed, and then deal with the > jerks who either don't pay or claim you mislead them, > and then deal with the mail system going south or > Ebay goes down. What are you a masochist? I'll give > you $X for this and it will walk away on its own power > and you'll have coin in your pocket. So what's it > going to be?" > > --Chuck From chomko at greenbelt.com Mon May 7 10:41:41 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: D-116 Digital Computer Controls - minicomputer References: Message-ID: <3AF6C235.2D5DF774@greenbelt.com> Is yours a D-116 or the D-116e? And come to think of it I think I actually programmed the DG and NOT the DCC system. Didn't Rolm make a simialr machine? Eric Chris Kennedy wrote: > Eric wrote: > > > Has anyone ever heard of such a thing. I dug out a manual and a book on > > the system, and remember > > working on one years ago. The books are dated 1972-3. The company is out > > of New Jersey. Anyone one know anything about the D-116 system or about > > the fate of the company: DCC? > > The D-116 is essentially a jumbo-chassis DG Nova 830 clone; like the > similar offering from Keronix it has a programmatic option to double > the size of the address space (from 32KW to 64KW) by limiting indirection > to one level (second and subsequent levels of indirection in the Nova > were indicated by having the high bit of the intermediate word fetched > set, thus effectively limiting addresses to 15 bits) > > I have no idea what happened to DCC; Keronix (who manufactured far > nicer memory boards for the Nova than DG) exited the business when their > manufacturing plant burned to the ground, an act sometimes referred to > as the consequence of "DeCastro Lightening" > > I have a D-116 sitting in the projects pile just now. It looks like an > ugly Nova, right down to the incredibly poor mechanical engineering. > Keronix was much more original and did nice work in the MechE department, > including the ability to access the card cage without having to pull the > machine out of the rack. > -- > Chris Kennedy > chris@mainecoon.com > http://www.mainecoon.com > PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From marvin at rain.org Mon May 7 10:50:34 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage References: <959.527T1150T1055043optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3AF6C44A.3FD6B62C@rain.org> Iggy Drougge wrote: > > R. D. Davis skrev: > > >How can anyone be so naieve as to think that nearly anything else > >besides a gun can't be used as a lethal weapon? > > What a really stupid analogy. Screwdrivers and garden shears are not weapons, > they are tools which may be used as weapons. Guns, however, are made for the > express purpose of killing people, and the only other function they have is > that of a really lousy/dangerous hammer. > Next time, please don't be so stupid. It is a bit sad you are so closed minded AND ignorant about what guns are all about. Of course, your comments are the usual politically correct way to divert attention from the FACT that attitudes are what direct the usage of guns (and everything else for that matter.) Personal responsibility for what one does is not a very popular notion these days since it is SO MUCH EASIER to blame someone/something else. From RCini at congressfinancial.com Mon May 7 11:05:44 2001 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E58798D5@MAIL10> Hello, all: I have an old CGA monitor that's working now, but I can envision it someday soon not working. So, I was wondering if anyone has built a converter so that they can use a standard VGA monitor (analog) on a CGA output (TTL)? Rich From vance at ikickass.org Mon May 7 11:12:27 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Vance Dereksen) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: System 36 Rescue? In-Reply-To: <3AF5ED9F.666DA4C9@home.com> Message-ID: How big is it? Peace... Sridhar On Sun, 6 May 2001, Neil Cherry wrote: > One of my neighbors is tossing a System 36(?) (5632) out in the trash anyone > interested? It's located in Central NJ (Turnpike 8A, Monroe Twp) and I can > store it for a while. I doubt there is much there and I don't know the > condition. > > -- > Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net > http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) > http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics) > http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) > From epgroot at ucdavis.edu Mon May 7 11:17:09 2001 From: epgroot at ucdavis.edu (Edwin P. Groot) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: Different IBM Model M keyboard In-Reply-To: <3AF42998.1BC6A1D3@internet1.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010507091709.007d2bc0@yellow.ucdavis.edu> At 12:26 PM 5/5/2001 -0400, you wrote: >Hello, > >I like the IBM Model M keyboard. They are very durable, have a good >feel, and I can easily find them cheap. Yesterday, I bought one that is >a bit different, However. The feel, isn't quite the same, which really >surprises me. It's not particularly bad, just a little different. I >don't think it is any newer or older than others I have owned. The big >difference is not feel, but color! This one has colored keys! I think >it is set up for use with Wordperfect, but am unsure. The Shift keys >are green, the alts blue, and ctrls are red. That's definitely WordPerfect-style colours for shift, alt, and ctrl. Pretty cool to have the keytops themselves in colour! Then some of the other >keys are a very light yellow, or creamy color and are labeled for >different functions. Each of those keys has 4 functions depending if >you press the shift, the alt, or ctrl. >Chad Fernandez >Michigan, USA > Edwin From fernande at internet1.net Mon May 7 11:57:03 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: Different IBM Model M keyboard References: <3.0.5.32.20010507091709.007d2bc0@yellow.ucdavis.edu> Message-ID: <3AF6D3DF.304BF162@internet1.net> Someone at Goodwill thought it was pretty cool too, there original price on the keyboard was about $9.99. There standard keyboard price is usually only 2 or 3 dollars! When I went back a week later they had reduced it to there normal price, so I picked it up. I'll have to install WP on a computer again. I don't normally use a word processor, but having that keyboard might make me a little more inclined to. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA "Edwin P. Groot" wrote: > That's definitely WordPerfect-style colours for shift, alt, and ctrl. > Pretty cool to have the keytops themselves in colour! From allain at panix.com Mon May 7 12:00:07 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage References: Message-ID: <003301c0d717$2b99e720$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> I'd just say that talking about guns under the subject banner Computer Garage seems like an insult to Jim. I mean its his subject. Use the other thread if you have to. If you like heavy steel then collect... HardDrives, not Guns! Peace! John A. From allain at panix.com Mon May 7 12:04:35 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: Sony with linear motor References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E58798D5@MAIL10> Message-ID: <003e01c0d717$cb66b760$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Few years ago I took apart a 3.5FDD drive and found in it to my surprise a linear step motor running the head assy. Forever since then I've been turning FDD's over to see if the cylindrical can is missing, to look for another. Never found one. Anybody know the model number? Think it was a Sony. John A. From fwhite at pobox.com Mon May 7 12:13:22 2001 From: fwhite at pobox.com (Fredric White) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: D-116 Digital Computer Controls - minicomputer In-Reply-To: <3AF694C9.4E302E07@greenbelt.com> References: <3AF694C9.4E302E07@greenbelt.com> Message-ID: <15094.55218.330000.963639@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Eric Chomko writes: > Has anyone ever heard of such a thing. I dug out a manual and a book on > the system, and remember DCC built Nova 1200 clones (as well as PDP8 clones, the D-112). They were near-exact copies, but 20% cheaper, and came in both regular and jumbo versions, just like the Novas. DCC made a few improvements, replacing the switching power supply with a quiet linear supply, and using wide bat handle switches on the front panel instead of the finger-cutting toggle switches on Novas. But it was basically a ripoff, so DG naturally sued DCC over theft of trade secrets, and mostly won. I think DG eventually bought DCC, does anyone know for sure? I also just found mention of follow-on D-216, D-316, and D-416 machines. Has anyone seen one of them? http://www.corecomm.net/~jurdoc/trade.htm http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.computerwoche.de/archiv/1976/32/7632c004.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dd-116%2Bd-216%2Bd-316%26num%3D100%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff I'm currently sprucing up my D-116 for VCF East. I actually like its mechanical design, since with the cover off the entire surface of the topmost pcb is available for probing, without using an extender card: http://world.std.com/~fwhite/misc/D116.jpg I may be a little biased since I was an expert witness for DCC in the trial, which is how I came to have this D-116. What manuals do you have? I'm missing the D-116 user's manual which gives the assembler, debugger, etc, syntax. I'm also missing schematics for the core memory, and am trying to repair one flakey 8K board. Fredric White From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 7 12:32:40 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: Can I use pc keyboard on a pc jr In-Reply-To: <000801c0d69d$444bc600$8df8dcd8@k62450> from "ibmmac" at May 6, 1 10:27:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 549 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010507/18660f22/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 7 12:35:07 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: Trenton State Computer Festival In-Reply-To: <20010507023656.31671@mail.lafayette.edu> from "Tom Owad" at May 6, 1 10:36:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 593 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010507/85ab34bc/attachment.ksh From sipke at wxs.nl Mon May 7 12:43:53 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: Serious Request For Moderation (On Topic) Message-ID: <004501c0d71d$48ea1e20$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Ghasp............ I'll turn to all of you my other cheek while thinking that this list is in serious need of a MODERATOR He, who is without sin ........... Sipke de Wal ---------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx ---------------------------------------------- From bkr at WildHareComputers.com Mon May 7 13:56:55 2001 From: bkr at WildHareComputers.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: D-116 Digital Computer Controls - minicomputer References: <3AF694C9.4E302E07@greenbelt.com> <15094.55218.330000.963639@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <027601c0d727$7d46c420$0100a8c0@dellhare> G'day DCC/DG lovers - I have updated the SimuLogics site with some DCC, Rolm and DG/One info. (Its a start, anyway.) www.SimuLogics.com/nostalgia/dcc/dcc.htm www.SimuLogics.com/nostalgia/rolm/rolm.htm www.SimuLogics.com/nostalgia/dg/dg_one.htm DCC started out producing PDP-8 clones, then DG Nova 1200 and DEC PDP-11 clones. Its first real big marketing coup was "winning" the bid for New York's OTB (off track betting) system in 1970. And yes, DG bought DCC in 'bout 1977 and merged the DCC products into the DG product line. Yup, you could order DCC stuff from DG using DG part numbers. The biggest benefit to DCC for us DG users besides price was the superior power supply compared to the Nova 1200 line. Keronix memories were the best core memories. DCC eventually came out with their Mod 4 and Mod 5 computers which were Nova instruction set supersets, and I'll try to get that stuff on the web soon. Rolm systems were used in some very "cool" ruggedized applications, some we can even talk about now. They extended the standard Nova instruction set like most other 3rd party knockoffs did, but typically standard DG software was used for program development by us poor software types. DCC and DG manuals we have archived are listed in the sites "archive" section and are available for the asking... Frederic: we might have some of the prints also. Bruce bkr@SimuLogics.com -or- bkr@WildHareComputers.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fredric White" To: Cc: "Eric Chomko" Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 11:13 AM Subject: Re: D-116 Digital Computer Controls - minicomputer > Eric Chomko writes: > > Has anyone ever heard of such a thing. I dug out a manual and a book on > > the system, and remember > > DCC built Nova 1200 clones (as well as PDP8 clones, the D-112). They > were near-exact copies, but 20% cheaper, and came in both regular and > jumbo versions, just like the Novas. DCC made a few improvements, > replacing the switching power supply with a quiet linear supply, and > using wide bat handle switches on the front panel instead of the > finger-cutting toggle switches on Novas. > > But it was basically a ripoff, so DG naturally sued DCC over theft of > trade secrets, and mostly won. I think DG eventually bought DCC, does > anyone know for sure? I also just found mention of follow-on D-216, > D-316, and D-416 machines. Has anyone seen one of them? > > http://www.corecomm.net/~jurdoc/trade.htm > http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.computerwoche .de/archiv/1976/32/7632c004.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dd-116%2Bd-216%2Bd-316%26 num%3D100%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff > > I'm currently sprucing up my D-116 for VCF East. I actually like its > mechanical design, since with the cover off the entire surface of the > topmost pcb is available for probing, without using an extender card: > > http://world.std.com/~fwhite/misc/D116.jpg > > I may be a little biased since I was an expert witness for DCC in the > trial, which is how I came to have this D-116. > > What manuals do you have? I'm missing the D-116 user's manual which > gives the assembler, debugger, etc, syntax. I'm also missing > schematics for the core memory, and am trying to repair one flakey 8K > board. > > Fredric White From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 7 13:00:57 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E58798D5@MAIL10> from "Cini, Richard" at May 7, 1 12:05:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 889 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010507/9c19cb5b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 7 13:03:31 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: Sony with linear motor In-Reply-To: <003e01c0d717$cb66b760$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at May 7, 1 01:04:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 602 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010507/1c547b1a/attachment.ksh From dittman at dittman.net Mon May 7 13:22:58 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: Trenton State Computer Festival In-Reply-To: <3AF6BED2.7924B06B@internet1.net> from "Chad Fernandez" at May 07, 2001 11:27:14 AM Message-ID: <200105071822.f47IMwO08859@narnia.int.dittman.net> > The closets I get to a swap meet is the local computer show, sometimes > the used content is pretty high. It is all PC based, of course. I > haven't had anybody give me the Ebay line, but I'll remember your > approach Chuck.... it makes sence to me :-) Here in the Dallas area we have the First Saturday sale every month. It's mostly PC stuff, but there are some Sun and DEC stuff at times. The prices are usually above eBay. I don't make an offer on the Sun stuff since I don't collect Sun (although I have a couple of IPCs in the closet), but I've made an offer on the DEC stuff. The sellers almost always respond with, "I can get more for that on eBay" so I just let them. I know I can get the item for less on eBay, even with shipping included. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Mon May 7 14:26:45 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: Computers as weapons References: <003001c0d663$6b102360$0a00a8c0@azog> <5.0.0.25.2.20010507004805.034cf790@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <3AF6F6F5.A1DB9CC9@dragonsweb.org> Chuck McManis wrote: > > Get rid of people who thing killing a fellow human being is a reasonable > course of action and gun control is a non-issue. Getting rid of guns will > only force those looney tunes to use other (often more effective) > techniques to kill you. > > Sigh, > --Chuck I know somebody who killed someone. Not with a gun, either. He didn't and doesn't feel it was reasonable at all. Just unavoidable. I have reason to believe critical evidence was withheld or destroyed, but at any rate, the jury didn't agree, and he's serving a life sentence for murder. It could have been at lot worse. A trial would matter little to a dead man. I'm going to suggest that this is an unproductive thread that will generate a lot more heat than light. There's nothing much that can be said one way or the other on this subject that isn't going to be inflammatory to many. There are better places for this. Trying to get in something at least a little on-topic, I've heard of people being killed accidently by industrial robots and such, or the prospect of the imminent demise of hospital patients due to script kiddies screwing around with medical records databases or life support equipment, but does anyone know of an instance where a computer was used to kill someone? Including military or intelligence cases? jbdigriz From chris at mainecoon.com Mon May 7 13:33:38 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: D-116 Digital Computer Controls - minicomputer In-Reply-To: <027601c0d727$7d46c420$0100a8c0@dellhare> Message-ID: Bruce wrote: > Rolm systems were used in some very "cool" ruggedized applications, some we > can even talk about now. They extended the standard Nova instruction set > like most other 3rd party knockoffs did, but typically standard DG software > was used for program development by us poor software types. "Ruggedized"? Puh-lease ;-) Norden made "ruggedized" stuff, meaning commercial boards stuffed into a beefed-up chassis. We made _militarized_ stuff at ROLM, which with of two painful exceptions were not even based on DG implementations (so-called "punches" of DG machines; one was a 1/2 ATR S/130 clone, the other was a punch of the MV8K that was so incredibly miserable that only two were built). Life at ROLM started with the 1601, which was essentially a Nova 800, and progressed through the 1666, which added things like stacks but in a fashion utterly incompatible with the way DG wedged them into the Nova 3. Most 16XX series machines went to the Navy, although as far as I can tell the largest single buyer of them was MacDAC for use in the GLCM/SLCM (ground/sea launch cruise missile) erector/launch system. As an interesting(?) aside, the 16xx machines maintained the Nova I/O bus, including the utter lack of parity or any other form of error detection. When the NAB people got wind of this they went (understandably) nuts and Eddie Yee had to work magic with ROLM's version of RTOS in order for the system to qualify for use with "specials". As Bruce suggested, _most_ DG code would run on ROLM processors, although ROLM also vended its own operating systems (ARTS and ARTS/32) and peddled their own language (MSL -- The "MilSpec Language" which looked a great deal like something between BCPL and C, minus byte pointers, which were a pain in the ass to make work right thanks to the fact that the Nova was a word oriented machine). The culmination of hardware at ROLM was the Hawk/32, which was an original implementation of the Eagle (MV) architecture, which was supposed to be coupled with a painfully advanced B3-secure distributed OS named MARVIN (the derivation of the name is complex; basically those of us who were originally assigned to the project were considered to have bad attitudes so the project took its name from the similarly attitude-impaired android from "The Hitchhiker's Guide to The Galaxy". When pressed by marketing for the underlying meaning of the term, we offered up "Multiprocessor Advanced Virtually Interconnected Network", which the marketing drones gobbled up and immediately started regurgitating to the customer base). MARVIN hit the dustbin about the time that the MSC division was purchased from IBM by Loral. In a blast-from-the-past, the PlayStation II/CPU2 project brought three of us ROLM refugees together at Toshiba. Each of us had in tow a statue of a hawk that was handed out upon completion of the Hawk/32 project. As each of us jointed the project the staff would be abuzz about how we were stealing this statue from each other -- until they realized that there were several of these things running around the office... Back to the D-116; I have a complete set of prints hanging about if someone needs copies. They appear to have belonged to a FE; the print for the front panel has been attacked with color highlighters, and the microswitch that disables the front panel when the key is in the "lock" position has a large circle drawn around it with a like leading to handwritten text that reads: "Dear diary: Today is fucked". -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From owad at applefritter.com Mon May 7 13:40:37 2001 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: Trenton State Computer Festival In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20010507184037.24112@mail.lafayette.edu> >> I thought I was being clever when I bought a cheap DEC 3000/400 (I think) >> for the RAM, but it turns out the 400 had 60ns RAM, while my 900 required >> 70ns. > >Why would any machine object to RAM that was faster than it needed? I was thinking 70ns was faster (or maybe I switched the specs). Anyway, this weekend I'll have to try it out. Tom P.S. While doing a search for "DEC", "3000", and "FAQ", I - in all honesty - came across a link to the can.talk.guns FAQ List! This newsgroup would be the perfect place to take some of the recent discussions on this list. Applefritter www.applefritter.com From donm at cts.com Mon May 7 13:46:37 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: Serious Request For Moderation (On Topic) In-Reply-To: <004501c0d71d$48ea1e20$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 May 2001, Sipke de Wal wrote: > Ghasp............ > > I'll turn to all of you my other cheek while thinking > that this list is in serious need of a MODERATOR That topic has been chewed over a few times in the past and the conclusion has always been the we do NOT. - don > He, who is without sin ........... > > > Sipke de Wal > ---------------------------------------------- > http://xgistor.ath.cx > ---------------------------------------------- > > From chronic at nf.sympatico.ca Mon May 7 13:57:58 2001 From: chronic at nf.sympatico.ca (Lanny Cox) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: Serious Request For Moderation (On Topic) and IMSAIs........ References: <004501c0d71d$48ea1e20$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <001701c0d727$ac3ab980$88f8fea9@98box> Yup, definitely. Off topic posts, rambling, and arguments are what this list is all about. Something about computers too.......... Back to the computer part. I was on the IMSAI site (http://www.imsai.net) the other day, and noticed that they are selling the series 2 computers now. What differences do these models have compared to the originals? Does the price warrant buying them, or is it a ripoff?? Are they considered "classic computers", at least in the sense of this list? -Lanny ----- Original Message ----- From: Sipke de Wal To: Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 3:13 PM Subject: Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On Topic) > Ghasp............ > > I'll turn to all of you my other cheek while thinking > that this list is in serious need of a MODERATOR > > He, who is without sin ........... > > > Sipke de Wal > ---------------------------------------------- > http://xgistor.ath.cx > ---------------------------------------------- > > From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon May 7 14:12:09 2001 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: Can I use pc keyboard on a pc jr In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at May 07, 2001 06:32:40 PM Message-ID: <200105071912.NAA06313@calico.litterbox.com> I have a pc jr keyboard and no pc jr. I bought it for a project that never panned out. If the original poster of this thread would like it he or she may have it for postage from the 80919 zipcode (colorado) in the US. I don't recall whether the cable is present, but the infrared link should work. > > > I have an IBM PC Jr that works but don't have the keyboard with it. > > is there a way to take an old IBM pc keyboard and make an adapter to = > > make it work on the jr ? > > It's _possible_ (on the grounds that all such tasks are _possible_), but > the 'adapter' is a lot more than just a cable. It would almost certainly > involve a microcontroller of some kind -- the keyboard interface signals > on the PC and the Jr are totally different. > > I can probably find a spec of the PC-jr keyboard interface in the TechRef > if you want to have a go. > > -tony > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From ss at allegro.com Mon May 7 14:13:55 2001 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: Free: HP 9000/350 & monitor (working) In-Reply-To: <20010502090923.C8094@mail.er-grp.com> References: <200105011955.MAA14822@opus.allegro.com> Message-ID: <3AF69183.18374.4634613@localhost> Re: > On Tue, May 01, 2001 at 12:55:41PM -0700, Stan Sieler wrote: > > Hi, > > > > If anyone wants a working HP 9000/350 & color monitor, please let All machines have been claimed, thanks! Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From bob at jfcl.com Mon May 7 14:46:46 2001 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: DEC Collectors Lunch, V1.02 Message-ID: <01050712464594@jfcl.com> This is a reminder that the second DEC collectors lunch of the season will be held this Saturday, May 12th, at high noon, in the Mountain View Fresh Choice Restaurant. You can find the full details, including a map, on our web page at http://www.jfcl.com/Computers/dcl.htm . The first DCL, held last month, was a great success and we hope to see all the same old faces plus a few new ones this time. Anyone interested in old DEC computers is welcome, so please feel free to forward this invitation to anyone you know who fits that description. Bob Armstrong From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon May 7 14:51:07 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: Computers as weapons In-Reply-To: "James B. DiGriz" "Computers as weapons" (May 7, 15:26) References: <003001c0d663$6b102360$0a00a8c0@azog> <5.0.0.25.2.20010507004805.034cf790@208.226.86.10> <3AF6F6F5.A1DB9CC9@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <10105072051.ZM8069@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 7, 15:26, James B. DiGriz wrote: > Trying to get in something at least a little on-topic, I've heard of > people being killed accidently by industrial robots and such, or the > prospect of the imminent demise of hospital patients due to script > kiddies screwing around with medical records databases or life support > equipment, but does anyone know of an instance where a computer was used > to kill someone? Including military or intelligence cases? The only documented case I recall immediately is the famous Therac-25 case. This was essentially a case of misdesign, which led to half a dozen deaths. A Google search for "therac" or "leveson" will find plenty of references. Some time ago, when I was doing a course on Software Engineering for Safety Critical Systems, I came across a book with several other reports, but I can't remember the title or author :-( I don't recall any other fatal incidents, though. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon May 7 14:52:36 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: Mac Portable (Was Re: Seriously OT: Firearms) In-Reply-To: Mike Ford "Re: Mac Portable (Was Re: Seriously OT: Firearms)" (May 7, 0:57) References: Message-ID: <10105072052.ZM8076@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 7, 0:57, Mike Ford wrote: > >Yes, that 3.6V AA1/2 is rare and OVERPRICED around here. 16.xx to > >20 ea CDN. Still searching for cheaper sources in canada. Must it > > I buy them for about a buck at the swapmeet, maybe not brand brand new, but > not used and typically within the expected 5 year or so shelf life. Plenty > of people sell them new on Ebay for $6, so I don't bother. > > I will mention that I still have a few hunderd of the 4.5v alkalines for $5 > or less in quantity. Mike, are these the same batteries used in the Mac Plus? I can't seem to find any equivalent over here. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From foo at siconic.com Mon May 7 13:56:52 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: D-116 Digital Computer Controls - minicomputer In-Reply-To: <3AF694C9.4E302E07@greenbelt.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 May 2001, Eric Chomko wrote: > Has anyone ever heard of such a thing. I dug out a manual and a book > on the system, and remember working on one years ago. The books are > dated 1972-3. The company is out of New Jersey. Anyone one know > anything about the D-116 system or about the fate of the company: DCC? I was going to rescue one at the beginning of the year but I ended up handing it over to The Computer Museum. It was way too much for me to handle (about 20 racks of equipment) and was also very historic: it was used as a training simulator for the Apollo 11 mission. It's now sitting comfortably in one of the warehouses of TCMHC. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From menadeau at mediaone.net Mon May 7 14:57:10 2001 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: Serious Request For Moderation (On Topic) and IMSAIs........ References: <004501c0d71d$48ea1e20$030101ac@boll.casema.net> <001701c0d727$ac3ab980$88f8fea9@98box> Message-ID: <0b2301c0d72f$ea55cc20$0c01a8c0@michaelnadeau> The Series Two seems to be a combination of old and new design; I wouldn't call it a classic. Value is in the eye of the beholder, but I don't think you can compare the cost of the System Two to a similarly equipped PC. It is a low-volume product, which means high component costs for Fischer-Freitas. Did anyone else see the "new" Mark-8 kit sell on eBay recently? I think it went for $1,600. --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lanny Cox" To: Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 2:57 PM Subject: Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On Topic) and IMSAIs........ > Yup, definitely. Off topic posts, rambling, and arguments are what this list > is all about. Something about computers too.......... > > Back to the computer part. I was on the IMSAI site (http://www.imsai.net) > the other day, and noticed that they are selling the series 2 computers now. > What differences do these models have compared to the originals? Does the > price warrant buying them, or is it a ripoff?? Are they considered "classic > computers", at least in the sense of this list? > > -Lanny > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Sipke de Wal > To: > Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 3:13 PM > Subject: Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On Topic) > > > > Ghasp............ > > > > I'll turn to all of you my other cheek while thinking > > that this list is in serious need of a MODERATOR > > > > He, who is without sin ........... > > > > > > Sipke de Wal > > ---------------------------------------------- > > http://xgistor.ath.cx > > ---------------------------------------------- > > > > > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon May 7 15:12:44 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: Trenton State Computer Festival In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >I get this from time to time from sellers at local ham fests. I respond >something to the effect that if they want to get the eBay price then they >should sell it on eBay, but I don't see the point of them having gone >through all the trouble of packing their stuff up and hauling it down to a >parking lot to stew all day in the sun and refuse a reasonable offer. I >also then remind them of how much work it is to pack, label and ship the >item to the buyer and ask them to calculate how much their time is worth >to them. At that point the sensible sellers will see it my way and give >into my offer. The assholes will go home with the item and maybe >successfully sell it on eBay. I agree....if it's a choice between selling to a local for a little less or having to go through the trouble of packing and shipping it, and possibly deal with it being damaged, then I'll sell to the local everytime! Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Mon May 7 15:15:47 2001 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: Computers as weapons Message-ID: On May 7, 15:26, James B. DiGriz wrote: > Trying to get in something at least a little on-topic, I've heard of > people being killed accidently by industrial robots and such, or the > prospect of the imminent demise of hospital patients due to script > kiddies screwing around with medical records databases or life support > equipment, but does anyone know of an instance where a computer was used > to kill someone? Including military or intelligence cases? My favorite software disclaimer is with Windows95 (the original is in all caps). I wonder if the text is from Sun or Microsoft?: "Note on Java support. The software may contain support for programs written in Java. Java technology is not fault tolerant and is not designed, manufactured, or intended for use or resale as on-line control equipment in hazardous environments requiring fail-safe performance, such as in the operation of nuclear facilities, aircraft navigation or communication systems, air traffic control, direct life support machines, or weapons systems, in which the failure of Java technology could lead directly to death, personal injury, or severe physical or environmental damage." From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon May 7 15:29:47 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: Serious Request For Moderation (On Topic) and IMSAIs........ In-Reply-To: <0b2301c0d72f$ea55cc20$0c01a8c0@michaelnadeau> References: <004501c0d71d$48ea1e20$030101ac@boll.casema.net> <001701c0d727$ac3ab980$88f8fea9@98box> <0b2301c0d72f$ea55cc20$0c01a8c0@michaelnadeau> Message-ID: >Did anyone else see the "new" Mark-8 kit sell on eBay recently? I think it >went for $1,600. He's been selling the boards and components for a number of months now. I've read his listings a few times and he never comes right out and says that he has made the parts new using the original drawings, just that they were made from them. I wouldn't be suprised if the buyers actually believed they were getting vintage parts vice the 'repro' parts that they are, regardless of how well done. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From gregorym at cadvision.com Mon May 7 15:34:16 2001 From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: Computers as weapons References: Message-ID: <015101c0d735$15cbf320$0200a8c0@marvin> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Feldman, Robert" To: Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 2:15 PM Subject: RE: Computers as weapons > My favorite software disclaimer is with Windows95 (the original is in all > caps). I wonder if the text is from Sun or Microsoft?: > > "Note on Java support. The software may contain support for programs written > in Java. Java technology is not fault tolerant and is not designed, > manufactured, or intended for use or resale as on-line control equipment in > hazardous environments requiring fail-safe performance, such as in the > operation of nuclear facilities, aircraft navigation or communication > systems, air traffic control, direct life support machines, or weapons > systems, in which the failure of Java technology could lead directly to > death, personal injury, or severe physical or environmental damage." > I think this is standard boilerplate for software that's not tested and guaranteed to be fault-tolerant. I know I've seen something similar on Amiga OS 3.5 and 3.9 licences. I remember grinning about the "nuclear facilities" part. Cheers, Mark From chris at mainecoon.com Mon May 7 15:37:53 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: Computers as weapons In-Reply-To: <10105072051.ZM8069@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: Peter Turnbull wrote: > The only documented case I recall immediately is the famous Therac-25 case. Gah! The Therac case is positively frightening, and in a very real way could be called "death by keyboard interrupt service". The Therac could deliver E-beam or X-ray therapy; to generate X-rays it moved a metal target into the path of the beam and made appropriate changes to the beam current. The problems with the Therac were manifold, but the most fundamental one was that it was a hunk of cooperative real-time processes written by someone who didn't understand niceties like semaphores. As a consequence, there were failure modes in the code, one of which being that if keystrokes were entered while the treatment type (e-beam or x-ray) was being selected the metal target and the focusing rings would be positioned incorrectly with respect to the beam current -- generally, as I recall, the system would end up positioning the target and rings for X-ray and setting the beam current for e-beam -- which was a few orders of magnitude greater than the maximum permitted for x-ray. That created the problem -- but it wasn't the only one. When the machine misconfigured itself and the operator hit "treat", the machine would run for a fraction of a second and then shutdown when the dosimeters decided that the patient had been exposed to too much radiation. However, the dosimeter interlock was a soft one; when the machine tripped off a message was displayed to the operator indicating that the treatment plan had been interrupted. If the operator hit enter (which they almost always did) the system ignored the dosimeters and proceeded to irradiate the hell out of the patient. Who then usually died a painful and unpleasant death. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From edick at idcomm.com Mon May 7 15:39:28 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: Serious Request For Moderation (On Topic) and IMSAIs........ References: <004501c0d71d$48ea1e20$030101ac@boll.casema.net> <001701c0d727$ac3ab980$88f8fea9@98box> Message-ID: <001d01c0d735$d04e3a00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> All the information you need is on the web site. The price is a ripoff if you don't want what they're selling. It's certainly not an investment. Read the web site details regarding their "series-2" product. There is essentially no compatibility with the old "real" S-100 at all, by design, as they use a regulated power supply rather than the S-100 standard on-board regulation. I've yet to hear from anyone to whom one has been delivered. I'd look long and hard for someone who's bought one and actually had it delivered, then ask the relevant questions of them. I personally wouldn't want one. After all, it's not a classic. When I read that they're using a regulated supply and so on ... I simply decided I didn't want or need one. I still have S-100 hardware from back in the '80's that has yet to be powered up. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lanny Cox" To: Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 12:57 PM Subject: Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On Topic) and IMSAIs........ > Yup, definitely. Off topic posts, rambling, and arguments are what this list > is all about. Something about computers too.......... > > Back to the computer part. I was on the IMSAI site (http://www.imsai.net) > the other day, and noticed that they are selling the series 2 computers now. > What differences do these models have compared to the originals? Does the > price warrant buying them, or is it a ripoff?? Are they considered "classic > computers", at least in the sense of this list? > > -Lanny > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Sipke de Wal > To: > Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 3:13 PM > Subject: Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On Topic) > > > > Ghasp............ > > > > I'll turn to all of you my other cheek while thinking > > that this list is in serious need of a MODERATOR > > > > He, who is without sin ........... > > > > > > Sipke de Wal > > ---------------------------------------------- > > http://xgistor.ath.cx > > ---------------------------------------------- > > > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon May 7 15:45:39 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E58798D5@MAIL10> Message-ID: <003b01c0d736$ace57aa0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> the old CGA monitor is not much other than a TV set. If you modify a TV set it will work fine with the CGA card. If you expect good quality text, however, you might want to remove the sound pickoff, as it will reduce the bandwidth to where the already crummy looking 80 column text is useless. The one thing a VGA isn't likely to do is sync at NTSC rates, which is what the CGA is designed to do. I've often wondered what's meant by "TTL" in the context of monitors, since the EGA monitors have analog-compatible inputs. The only problem with them is the sync frequency at which they work. VGA monitors certainly aren't TTL. They're just as analog as can be. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cini, Richard" To: "'ClassCompList'" Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 10:05 AM Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog > Hello, all: > > I have an old CGA monitor that's working now, but I can envision it > someday soon not working. So, I was wondering if anyone has built a > converter so that they can use a standard VGA monitor (analog) on a CGA > output (TTL)? > > Rich > > From foo at siconic.com Mon May 7 14:49:25 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: D-116 Digital Computer Controls - minicomputer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 7 May 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 7 May 2001, Eric Chomko wrote: > > > Has anyone ever heard of such a thing. I dug out a manual and a book > > on the system, and remember working on one years ago. The books are > > dated 1972-3. The company is out of New Jersey. Anyone one know > > anything about the D-116 system or about the fate of the company: DCC? > > I was going to rescue one at the beginning of the year but I ended up > handing it over to The Computer Museum. It was way too much for me to > handle (about 20 racks of equipment) and was also very historic: it was > used as a training simulator for the Apollo 11 mission. > > It's now sitting comfortably in one of the warehouses of TCMHC. I'm completely lame. I was thinking of the DDP-24. Never mind. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 7 15:52:25 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: Trenton State Computer Festival In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at May 07, 2001 06:35:07 PM Message-ID: <200105072052.NAA14590@shell1.aracnet.com> > > I thought I was being clever when I bought a cheap DEC 3000/400 (I think) > > for the RAM, but it turns out the 400 had 60ns RAM, while my 900 required > > 70ns. > > Why would any machine object to RAM that was faster than it needed? > (assuming the same type of RAM chips, same pinouts on the modules, etc). > The access time is generally a worst-case anyway, and under some > circumstances the data will be available sooner that you'd expect. It's > just that you design the memory controller based on the quoted access > time, since then you _know_ the data will be valid when you expect it. > > -tony It's not a Computer, but I know for a fact that an HP5MP Laserjet will not work with 60ns RAM, it wants 70ns RAM (company I bought the RAM from sent 60ns by mistake). It just plain wouldn't recognize the RAM. OTOH, I've put a PC133 256MB DIMM in a motherboard expecting nothing more than 128MB PC66 DIMM's and it worked, but only saw 128MB (not surprising, what was somewhat surprising is that it worked at all). Zane From menadeau at mediaone.net Mon May 7 16:03:16 2001 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: Serious Request For Moderation (On Topic) and IMSAIs........ References: <004501c0d71d$48ea1e20$030101ac@boll.casema.net><001701c0d727$ac3ab980$88f8fea9@98box><0b2301c0d72f$ea55cc20$0c01a8c0@michaelnadeau> Message-ID: <0b5301c0d739$264a86e0$0c01a8c0@michaelnadeau> Yes, I had to read the copy twice before I realized it wasn't an original kit. --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 4:29 PM Subject: Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On Topic) and IMSAIs........ > >Did anyone else see the "new" Mark-8 kit sell on eBay recently? I think it > >went for $1,600. > > He's been selling the boards and components for a number of > months now. I've read his listings a few times and he never comes > right out and says that he has made the parts new using the original > drawings, just that they were made from them. I wouldn't be > suprised if the buyers actually believed they were getting vintage > parts vice the 'repro' parts that they are, regardless of how well > done. > > Jeff > -- > Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon May 7 16:18:02 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: Mark-8 Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On Topic) and IMSAIs........ In-Reply-To: References: <0b2301c0d72f$ea55cc20$0c01a8c0@michaelnadeau> <004501c0d71d$48ea1e20$030101ac@boll.casema.net> <001701c0d727$ac3ab980$88f8fea9@98box> <0b2301c0d72f$ea55cc20$0c01a8c0@michaelnadeau> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010507140644.0276eec0@208.226.86.10> See how these things loop around? Suddenly it is back on topic... This demonstrates that there is a market for good classic computer reproductions. Now a "collector" may turn their nose up at such a thing, however places like museums routinely have reproductions made of things they want to be on display in their collection. I've got a copy of a Claig Mor that hangs in the British Museum today from the guy who made the one that is hanging in the Museum :-) There is also the 'IMSAI Series II' which is not a reproduction of the original beyond the front panel really. Its unclear if they are actually for sale (has anyone on this list bought one?) --Chuck >>Did anyone else see the "new" Mark-8 kit sell on eBay recently? I think it >>went for $1,600. > > He's been selling the boards and components for a number of > months now. I've read his listings a few times and he never comes right > out and says that he has made the parts new using the original drawings, > just that they were made from them. I wouldn't be suprised if the > buyers actually believed they were getting vintage parts vice the 'repro' > parts that they are, regardless of how well done. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 7 16:16:11 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: <003b01c0d736$ace57aa0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at May 7, 1 02:45:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2359 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010507/a92ab5fd/attachment.ksh From jtsai at vortek.com Mon May 7 14:14:32 2001 From: jtsai at vortek.com (jimmy tsai) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated floppy disk Message-ID: <000801c0d729$f255e3c0$0f0f0a0a@vortek.com> Hi everyone: I need help to solve a problem. Could anyone lends a hand? The company I work for has a machine that runs on DOS 2.11 There are some data on that machine that we need to retrieve. The information is transfered from that old machine to a 1.44mb floppy. When we put the floppy into our pentium winNT4 computer , we can not read the information on the floppy. The NT os simply says it does not know what format the files are at. Now do I need to install a dos 2.11 or is there anyway around it ? What is the format the dos2.11 writing its files in? Are there any program that reads in that type of format? Does any one here have DOS 2.11 that I can download? Even if I do have DOS 2.11, will I be able to install it or do I need very old hardware as well? Jimmy Tsai SFU engineering 3rd year -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010507/93a50d7e/attachment.html From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1375.monmouth.com Mon May 7 16:30:05 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1375.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:08 2005 Subject: Rolm Rugged Novas In-Reply-To: <027601c0d727$7d46c420$0100a8c0@dellhare> from Bruce Ray at "May 7, 2001 12:56:55 pm" Message-ID: <200105072130.f47LU5o04908@bg-tc-ppp1375.monmouth.com> > G'day DCC/DG lovers - > > I have updated the SimuLogics site with some DCC, Rolm and DG/One info. > (Its a start, anyway.) > > www.SimuLogics.com/nostalgia/rolm/rolm.htm I know there's lots of those Rolms still in use by the military. At least they were everywhere when I field serviced Vax systems at Fort Monmouth (a hotbed of Army software development) in the mid '80's. Bill From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon May 7 16:49:29 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >The video input stage of the EGA monitor I've just turned up schematics >for has the following stages. > >Incoming video signals (6 wires, MSB and LSB for each colour) are >terminated by resistor networks and fed to the inputs of a 74LS244 >(enables always asserted). The outputs of that TTL buffer go to a 28L42 >PROM, programmed to produce the correct colour drives for each of the 64 >input 'colours' in EGA mode and the 16 input 'colours' in CGA mode. 6 >outputs of that PROM (2 per colour, R, G, B) are buffered by 74LS05 O/C >inverters, then go to a transitor network that produces the CRT drive signal. > >To me, the inputs to that circuit are most certainly TTL level _digital_ >signals. EGA, like CGA, was a digital standard, which is why many of the early multisync-style monitors have both analog and digital inputs. VGA was the first of the IBM PC standards to use an analog video signal. Unfortunately for Amiga owners, VGA syncs at twice the NTSC rate. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon May 7 16:58:35 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated floppy disk In-Reply-To: <000801c0d729$f255e3c0$0f0f0a0a@vortek.com> References: <000801c0d729$f255e3c0$0f0f0a0a@vortek.com> Message-ID: It sounds to me like it would be quite a non-standard format, as I don't believe DOS 2.11 supports the 1.44meg format. Anyone else? Jeff >Hi everyone: > > >I need help to solve a problem. Could anyone lends a hand? > >The company I work for has a machine that runs on DOS 2.11 >There are some data on that machine that we need to retrieve. The >information is transfered from that old machine to a 1.44mb floppy. > >When we put the floppy into our pentium winNT4 computer , we can not >read the information on the floppy. The NT os simply says it does >not know what format the files are at. > >Now do I need to install a dos 2.11 or is there anyway around it ? >What is the format the dos2.11 writing its files in? >Are there any program that reads in that type of format? >Does any one here have DOS 2.11 that I can download? >Even if I do have DOS 2.11, will I be able to install it or do I >need very old hardware as well? > >Jimmy Tsai >SFU engineering 3rd year > > -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010507/510709b8/attachment.html From msell at ontimesupport.com Mon May 7 17:04:06 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: Teradyne PDP-11/84's Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010507170336.02f82ec0@127.0.0.1> Hello, I'm looking at the possibility of purchasing an old DEC PDP 11/84 that was part of a Teradyne board test system. Does anyone remember seeing/working with these systems? In particular, I'd like to know: 1) Was it a common DEC PDP 11/84 with DEC markings, in a DEC rack, or was it redone by Teradyne, with their markings and special enclosure? 2) Were there any special firmware modifications that would make this difficult to use as a "regular" PDP 11/84? I'd like to obtain a 11/84 and a 11/34 for use at home for hobby purposes, running a mix of DEC and "other" operating systems, just for novelty. Sorry for the lack of experience in those questions, I've had very little experience with PDP 11's, but I do remember they were nice machines to work with when I did have the chance. Maybe soon I'll have all the time in the world to use one.... : ) - Matt "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 7 17:18:25 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Hellige" at May 7, 1 05:58:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 866 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010507/f3e88e9a/attachment.ksh From optimus at canit.se Mon May 7 16:48:19 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: Seriously OT: Firearms (was RE: Interesting show on the ComputerGarage) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <506.527T950T13685079optimus@canit.se> XenoSoft skrev: >I've been wondering why Windoze was left off of the list. While it is >seldom deadly, it has caused more pain than all of the rest combined. The difference is that Windows ranks along with whips, thumbscrews and other SM tools. It's mostly used my masochists, who at least undergo their treatment more or less willingly. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Och har du en TV utan Scart, vilket nittionio procent faktiskt har, kommer de f?rmodligen att ringa fr?n Antikrundan. Martin Timell From optimus at canit.se Mon May 7 18:07:14 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: Florida Ballot Machines to be Auctioned In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010507094037.00a32210@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <1300.528T700T73909optimus@canit.se> joe skrev: >At 02:24 PM 5/7/01 +0100, you wrote: >>Vintage Computer Festival skrev: >> >> >Palm Beach to Auction Voting Machines >> >> > Palm Beach County is selling the voting machines at the center of last >> >year's chad debate to help pay for more modern voting equipment. >> >>I thought the whole problem stemmed from the usage of "modern" equipment. A >>booth and a pencil is all you really need to vote. > Ha! You're assuming that they can read and write in English. MANY of >them can't. A lot of them can't read or write ANY in any language. As far >as I'm concerned, if they can't figure out how to use a voting machine then >they have no business voting and their vote shouldn't count anyway. I thought alfabetisation was a cornerstone of democracy... Or perhaps that was communism. I can't remember. > Frustrated Florida taxpayer that will have to help pay for all those >new voting machines, Probably new-fangled Windows PCs with mice, which will be so much easier to use. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "Auf Sparc-Maschinen ist Linux weit weniger gut. Auf Maschinen mit sun4 Architektur ist NetBSD etwa 30% schneller. Wer auf so einer Maschine Linux faehrt tut es aus ideologischen Gruenden oder kennt nichts anderes." Aus: de.comp.os.unix.misc, "Was ist schneller?" From optimus at canit.se Mon May 7 18:08:20 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage In-Reply-To: <200105071423.KAA29495@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <339.528T1000T84461optimus@canit.se> Bryan Pope skrev: >New York! ewwww.... I am from Ingersoll, a little town (Pop. 9500) Ingersoll... That name sounds familiar. Isn't that the name of some late 70s video game console? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Sagt, ist noch ein Land, au?er Deutschland, wo man die Nase eher r?mpfen lernt als putzen? --- Georg Christoph Lichtenberg From harrison at timharrison.com Mon May 7 17:58:30 2001 From: harrison at timharrison.com (Tim Harrison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage References: <200105051613.MAA02417@wordstock.com> <01050519240201.00787@fatty> <3AF56009.2355B2ED@timharrison.com> <01050614323401.08768@fatty> Message-ID: <3AF72896.860B9EBF@timharrison.com> Brian Roth wrote: > Excellent response. I've watched Hockey most of my life but never knew what the > %#$% a hab was. I'll have my daughter read this as she is a huge Canadien's fan. Yeah, I'm not much of a hocky fan, but check out http://www.gohabs.com. Lot's o' stuff there. Maybe they're serving the site from an old VAX (cheap tie-in, I know...). > Now next question... > Whats a Hoser? > Just kidding. Not on this list, I won't. :) > I live 1 1/2 hours from Toronto and love going by car or boat. Great city but > there are three numbers that would keep me from living there. > > 4 0 1 > > You guys are drowning in cars. It's not too bad (if you want to commute at 3am or so). I was working in downtown (King W.) and out in Mississauga, and you were pretty much screwed whether you took the 401 or the Gardiner. For classiccmp tie-in, the data centre we took over was the old National Trust at 55 City Centre, across from Square One mall. I found some old DEC term servers in there, and rescued two. There were also what appeared to be hubs of some form, where each port was a full sized card (looked like VME, but quite sure it wasn't). I couldn't save them, as the entire enclosure made my PDP-11 look small. -- Tim Harrison Network Engineer harrison@timharrison.com http://www.networklevel.com/ From foo at siconic.com Mon May 7 17:03:32 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: Serious Request For Moderation (On Topic) and IMSAIs........ In-Reply-To: <001d01c0d735$d04e3a00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 May 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I've yet to hear from anyone to whom one has been delivered. I'd look > long and hard for someone who's bought one and actually had it > delivered, then ask the relevant questions of them. I personally > wouldn't want one. After all, it's not a classic. When I read that > they're using a regulated supply and so on ... I simply decided I > didn't want or need one. I still have S-100 hardware from back in the > '80's that has yet to be powered up. Todd Fischer is a good guy and wouldn't screw anyone around, if that's what you're implying. The Imsai-2's are legit. He is just trying to take advantage of the sudden interest in old S-100 machines and has come up with a new design for a modern day hackable computer architecture that harkens back to days of old. It still features an S-100 bus and the cool front panel, but has modern accoutrements such as a VGA interface, PC/AT keyboard interface, serial parallel, etc. >From Imsai.Net: "Classic cabinet, Programmer's Front Panel with on-board ZiLOG 20 MHz. Z8S180 processor, 1 Meg x 9 dynamic ram, Battery-backed Real-time Clock, Dual Floppy Disk controller, two RS-232 Serial ports, one Centronics parallel printer port, system monitor firmware, 4-slot terminated S-100 bus /IEEE 696-compliant interface and motherboard with 4 sockets and guide sets (20 slot terminated motherboard optional), 300 watt switching power supply, PC/AT keyboard interface, VGA display interface, IMSAI Local Expansion Bus interface, Owner's manual, and upgrade offers that will ensure value for years to come!" At $995, it's a bit expensive for a toy, but it's got a large coolness factor, and is a complete machine ready to fire up and play with. It's also an instant classic. When I get the fundage I will certainly consider buying one to add to the collection. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon May 7 18:08:37 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Also, does MS-DOS 2.11 know about anything other than 360K disks? It >might only be using the first 40 cylinders of the disk (and %deity knows >what it's doing to the directory). Two versions of 2.11 I know of supported 720k disks, one the DSQD 5-1/4" format while the other is the DSDD 3-1/2" format. (both Tandy specific). Two other versions I have mention nothing in the manuals over 360k (Zenith and Corona, though the Corona does mention 160k as well). I was thinking that maybe it would only be formatting it as 720k and it might not error out if the drive is a true 720k drive. The high-density drive would of course complain when he tried to read it though. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From harrison at timharrison.com Mon May 7 18:14:54 2001 From: harrison at timharrison.com (Tim Harrison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: Seriously OT: Firearms (was RE: Interesting show on the Computer Garage) References: Message-ID: <3AF72C6E.4364AF3@timharrison.com> Chris Kennedy wrote: > How does "clueless, irrational nitwit who has never once found their life in > danger from violence" strike you? When you've had your life placed in > danger, > have access to a firearm and choose not to use -- or threaten to use -- it > you're welcome to describe this as "inane". Until then you're working > in a vacuum. I was raised in the city and never thought once about owning > a firearm. It wasn't until I moved to rural California as was advised by > the sheriff's department of off-hours response times that I took an > interest -- > and I'm glad I did. Now, now. None of that there name-calling. :) I know it's off topic, and I know I'm going to be beaten for it, but opinions expressed should not be subject to verbal abuse. I've been shot twice. Once in the arm, and once in the rear thigh. Hurts like hell. I've had guns shoved in my face, waved about as a menacing gesture, and generally intimated through pats on coats, and pantlegs being rearranged. I ran with a bad crowd in those days. Guns, to those that are not totally well in the head, are a way to bring about power they don't think they have without them. It's unfortunate, but it's the way things are. Most people feel more "powerful" waving a gun around. Most will never shoot at a living thing. However, having survived when some misguided young person took aim at me (twice), I feel that guns are not necessarily a Good Thing[tm]. Will I ever pick up a gun again myself? Hell no. Do I want to have anyone carrying one around me? Hell no. Do I think they're good for the police to have? Yes. Hunters? Sure, if that's your thing. I'm also a Canadian, living in the US. I don't necessarily agree the the right to keep and bear arms. That's something that's very ingrained in the American mindset. In Canada, it's not so. I'm comfortable with that. However, I did choose to live here, and I'll take the good (my wife) with the bad (Bush ;)). Yes, I'm a "liberal" (Canadians, you would have a better idea of what I mean, even though Chretien is getting silly in his advancing age). I like it that way. I don't oppose guns because I'm afraid. As I say, I've been shot before, and I know how it feels. I'll also not think twice about being shot a third time, if it saves my wife, or a friend, or anyone else who happens to be in danger. I seem to be able to talk most people out of violent situations (once talked a really angry, stoned, gun-toting ex-boyfriend of a close friend of mine into handing me the gun, and sitting down for tea), so I think I'll be fine. Yes, at the time, I was carrying a Beretta 9mm. Didn't pull it out, or refer to it once. If you wish to flame and call me names, that's your thing. However, I'd rather talk about classic computers with you, drink a mugga, and listen to some music. :) So, shall we all be friendly, accept cultural and social differences, and move along as friends and fellow collectors of nifty shit? Black tea, anyone? Just brewed. -- Tim Harrison Network Engineer harrison@timharrison.com http://www.networklevel.com/ From markn at mr2.net Mon May 7 18:09:11 2001 From: markn at mr2.net (Mark Nias) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000401c0d74a$b9cdd500$960a0a0a@marknpc> try using a real 720k 3.5" floppy and format it on the DOS 2 system, you might have better luck reading it failing that you can try covering the HD hole (the one opposite to the write-protect tab) on a high density disk and formatting it as a 720k... though HD disks dont often work well as 720k disk because the media is actually different, but it's worth a try mark ======================= Mark Nias http://www.mr2.net http://www.marknias.com ======================= > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 07 May 2001 23:18 > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated > > > > > > --============_-1222849775==_ma============ > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > > > > It sounds to me like it would be quite a non-standard format, > > as I don't believe DOS 2.11 supports the 1.44meg format. Anyone > > else? > > Yes, that bothered me as well.... > > Also, most machines that run MS-DOS 2.11 are XTs. Which may well not > support high density drives at all (yes, I know there are high density > controllers for XT machines, but they're not that common). > > I am wondering if this is a 1.44Mbyte disk at all. It might be formated > as a 720K disk. In which case a machine with a high density drive and > controller might get very confused. > > Also, does MS-DOS 2.11 know about anything other than 360K disks? It > might only be using the first 40 cylinders of the disk (and %deity knows > what it's doing to the directory). > > -tony > From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Mon May 7 19:18:40 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: Computers as weapons References: <003001c0d663$6b102360$0a00a8c0@azog> <5.0.0.25.2.20010507004805.034cf790@208.226.86.10> <3AF6F6F5.A1DB9CC9@dragonsweb.org> <10105072051.ZM8069@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3AF73B60.D28543C9@dragonsweb.org> Pete Turnbull wrote: > > The only documented case I recall immediately is the famous Therac-25 case. > This was essentially a case of misdesign, which led to half a dozen > deaths. A Google search for "therac" or "leveson" will find plenty of > references. > > Some time ago, when I was doing a course on Software Engineering for Safety > Critical Systems, I came across a book with several other reports, but I > can't remember the title or author :-( I don't recall any other fatal > incidents, though. > Thanks, Pete. I read the comp.risks digest fairly regularly during the late '80s, but I don't recall anything about this case, for some reason. Makes me glad my father got cobalt treatments in that time frame, instead. I was actually thinking more along the lines of actual malice, though. The original Operation Sundevil apparently grew out of the presumed sabotage of AT&T switches in a widespread long-distance outage, which was later shown to be due to a bug in the software. This discovery didn't stop a lot of people from getting arrested, though. Not that some could exactly be called innocent babes, but they were hardly terrorists bent on bringing down the system, either. I'm just curious how many actual, documented occurences there have been of a computer being used, as a computer, not being dropped on somebody's head or something, to cause injury or death. Subject to the 10-year rule, of course. I've been locked up over a computer before-unjustly, I hasten to add-and if I hadn't had a cool head and an inspiring namesake, somebody would have suffered injury or worse, but that doesn't count, either. jbdigriz From hans at Huebner.ORG Mon May 7 18:19:12 2001 From: hans at Huebner.ORG (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hans_H=FCbner?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: Emulex QT14 and Fujitsu M2442: Problems writing two or more files on one tape Message-ID: Hi there, I recently acquired a DEC TSV05 QBUS Pertec controller and a Fujitsu 9-Track tape drive. My TSV05 actually is a relabeled Emulex QT14 with a different prom on it - The DEC version only talks TSV05 emulation whereas the QT14 also speaks TMSCP. I've put the controller into my VAX 4000/500A which runs VMS 7.2 The Drive/Controller combo works fine for reading tapes. Writing works as well, but only the first file can be written. Upon trying to write the second file, the drive starts to spin the tape back and forth and then stops, giving the following error message: %COPY-E-WRITEERR, error writing MSA0:[]VMS072.B;1 -RMS-F-WBE, error on write behind -SYSTEM-F-DRVERR, fatal drive error %COPY-W-NOTCMPLT, DUA4:[000,000]VMS072.B;1 not completely copied To me this looks as if the drive has problems writing file marks, or I am doing something wrong. As I do not have any documentation on the drive, I'm asking here: Does anyone know the problem and has a solution for it? Do I need to configure the drive or the controller differently? Are there any VMS paramters I need to modify to get the thing to write multiple files on one tape? Thanks in advance, Hans -- finger hans@huebner.org for details From harrison at timharrison.com Mon May 7 18:26:38 2001 From: harrison at timharrison.com (Tim Harrison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage References: <200105071423.KAA29495@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <3AF72F2E.9E8A3D00@timharrison.com> Bryan Pope wrote: > New York! ewwww.... I am from Ingersoll, a little town (Pop. 9500) > I now live in the suburbs of Boston and am very happy that I do *not* commute > into Boston! But New York... I went there once.. > Smelly from all the garbage and then you try to drive there. HA! Well, I'm not in the shitty (city, close enough). I live in Peekskill. It's a bit of a rough town, but not *too* bad. I'm an hour out on the Metro North, and I work in Croton-on-Hudson, which is only a 5 minute drive away. The thing that interests me about Manhattan is the amount of old computer gear that one can find. I worked on W. 26th, and there was a "consultant" shop right down the street. I'd always find old 486s and Pentiums waiting for the garbage. I never got a chance to drop in and ask if they had any old IBM gear (RS/6000s or AS/400s). I'd have had a hell of a time bringing them back on the train. :) -- Tim Harrison Network Engineer harrison@timharrison.com http://www.networklevel.com/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 7 18:55:39 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated floppy disk In-Reply-To: <000801c0d729$f255e3c0$0f0f0a0a@vortek.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 May 2001, jimmy tsai wrote: > The company I work for has a machine that runs on DOS 2.11 What is the make and model of the computer? MS-DOS 2.11 was the most heavily customized one. It was NOT available directly from Microsoft, only as a customized version from a computer OEM. Several companies added support for 720K 3.5" disks in their versions of 2.11 NOBODY supported 1.4M in 2.11. (IBM didn't add 720K support until PC-DOS 3.20 and 1.4M in 3.30) I am therefore going to guess that you are using a 1.4M diskette, but that your computer doesn't know from 1.4M and is treating it as if it were a 720K. When you bring that 720K format that is on a 1.4M diskette to your modern PC, it fails due to the diskette having a different format on it than the PC expects based on diskette type. Try using a 720K floppy. However, to further add to the fun: Since 720K support was locally originated by individual comoputer OEMs, many of them did NOT use the same format that IBM eventually adopted. Some did, some didn't. For example, HP had several 3.5" disk formats that are incompatible with PC. Gavilan's version of 2.11 uses an incompatible 3.5" format until rev L? of their 2.11, when they switched format. What is the make and model of the computer? In a few cases, the "alien" machine will recognize PC formats and accept them, even if the native format is different. Try formatting a 720K floppy (AS A 720K!) in the PC (FORMAT A: /F:720); take it to the alien machine, try to copy files to it, and bring it back. If that doesn't work, you MIGHT need to consider other transfer methods, or special software. http://www.xenosoft.com What is the make and model of the computer? -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 > There are some data on that machine that we need to retrieve. The information is transfered from that old machine to a 1.44mb floppy. > > When we put the floppy into our pentium winNT4 computer , we can not read the information on the floppy. The NT os simply says it does not know what format the files are at. > > Now do I need to install a dos 2.11 or is there anyway around it ? > What is the format the dos2.11 writing its files in? > Are there any program that reads in that type of format? > Does any one here have DOS 2.11 that I can download? > Even if I do have DOS 2.11, will I be able to install it or do I need very old hardware as well? > > Jimmy Tsai > SFU engineering 3rd year > > > -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 From gene at ehrich.com Mon May 7 18:55:49 2001 From: gene at ehrich.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010507195510.00ad6200@popmail.voicenet.com> All the answers are at http://www.emsps.com/oldtools/msdosv.htm 2.11 did not have support for 3-1/2 drives At 11:18 PM 5/7/01 +0100, you wrote: > > > > --============_-1222849775==_ma============ > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > > > > It sounds to me like it would be quite a non-standard format, > > as I don't believe DOS 2.11 supports the 1.44meg format. Anyone > > else? > >Yes, that bothered me as well.... > >Also, most machines that run MS-DOS 2.11 are XTs. Which may well not >support high density drives at all (yes, I know there are high density >controllers for XT machines, but they're not that common). > >I am wondering if this is a 1.44Mbyte disk at all. It might be formated >as a 720K disk. In which case a machine with a high density drive and >controller might get very confused. > >Also, does MS-DOS 2.11 know about anything other than 360K disks? It >might only be using the first 40 cylinders of the disk (and %deity knows >what it's doing to the directory). > >-tony --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- gene@ehrich.com gehrich@tampabay.rr.com P.O. Box 3365 Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365 http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 7 18:59:34 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Hellige" at May 07, 2001 07:08:37 PM Message-ID: <200105072359.QAA25850@shell1.aracnet.com> > Two versions of 2.11 I know of supported 720k disks, one the > DSQD 5-1/4" format while the other is the DSDD 3-1/2" format. (both > Tandy specific). Two other versions I have mention nothing in the > manuals over 360k (Zenith and Corona, though the Corona does mention > 160k as well). I was thinking that maybe it would only be formatting > it as 720k and it might not error out if the drive is a true 720k > drive. The high-density drive would of course complain when he tried > to read it though. > > Jeff I had a Kaypro 2000 running 2.11 on a 720k drive. I've successfully read data disks from that system on my PowerMac G4/450 with a 1.44MB USB Floppy drive. Zane From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 7 19:13:28 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 7 May 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > It sounds to me like it would be quite a non-standard format, > > as I don't believe DOS 2.11 supports the 1.44meg format. Anyone > > else? > I am wondering if this is a 1.44Mbyte disk at all. It might be formated > as a 720K disk. In which case a machine with a high density drive and > controller might get very confused. > Also, does MS-DOS 2.11 know about anything other than 360K disks? It > might only be using the first 40 cylinders of the disk (and %deity knows > what it's doing to the directory). MS-DOS 2.11 was the most customized of any version of DOS. It was the one that MICROS~1 encouraged companies like Gavilan to use. In addition to 360K, many companies added other formats, such as 720K and even 8" DSDD! But I never saw anybody support the 1.4M until v3.30 Various versions of 2.11 would not always be usable on any computer other than the one that they were customized for. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon May 7 19:17:12 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated floppy disk In-Reply-To: "jimmy tsai" "Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated floppy disk" (May 7, 14:14) References: <000801c0d729$f255e3c0$0f0f0a0a@vortek.com> Message-ID: <10105080117.ZM8280@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 7, 14:14, jimmy tsai wrote: > The company I work for has a machine that runs on DOS 2.11 > There are some data on that machine that we need to retrieve. The > information is transfered from that old machine to a 1.44mb floppy. > > When we put the floppy into our pentium winNT4 computer , we can not > read the information on the floppy. The NT os simply says it does not > know what format the files are at. I'm pretty sure 1.44M/HD disks didn't appear until DOS 3. Chances are the old machine has a double-density 720K drive, and if so you really shouldn't be putting 1.44M disks in it (they're a different coercivity). What you end up with is 9 sectors per track on a disk that the newer machine recognises as high density 18 sectors per track, so it tries to read it at double the data rate, and fails to find anything useful. If I'm right, you need to find some proper double density disks, distinguishable by not having the square hole on the right. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon May 7 19:06:05 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: Trenton State Computer Festival In-Reply-To: healyzh@aracnet.com "Re: Trenton State Computer Festival" (May 7, 13:52) References: <200105072052.NAA14590@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <10105080106.ZM8267@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 7, 13:52, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > It's not a Computer, but I know for a fact that an HP5MP Laserjet will not > work with 60ns RAM, it wants 70ns RAM (company I bought the RAM from sent > 60ns by mistake). It just plain wouldn't recognize the RAM. That may be because 72-pin SIMMs have 4 sense connections that tell the host the speed and size. 60ns was rare when the 5 came out, and I expect HP didn't include recognition of that code (possibly because it could also mean something much slower -- some codes are re-used, though I can't remember if the 60ns code is). If you changed one link on the SIMM I expect it would work fine -- so long as the SIMM was FPM not EDO. Most of the 60ns SIMMs I've seen are EDO, and that certainly won't work in an HP5M. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 7 19:25:05 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010507195510.00ad6200@popmail.voicenet.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 May 2001, Gene Ehrich wrote: > All the answers are at http://www.emsps.com/oldtools/msdosv.htm Many answers, but NOT all! BTW, the minor component of the version number is a TWO digit decimal number, and is internally stored as such. For example, 2.11 is internally stored as two point eleven (02.0Bh; 3.30 is NOT three point three - it is stored as three point thirty! (03.1Eh) > 2.11 did not have support for 3-1/2 drives 2.11 supported a lot of individual mods. Gavilan MS-DOS 2.11 supported 3.5" drives HP and others intro'd 3.5" long before IBM (3.20). 2.11 was the version of DOS that was used. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From dittman at dittman.net Mon May 7 19:32:17 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: RX50 Replacement Message-ID: <200105080032.f480WIi10377@narnia.int.dittman.net> I have a Pro380 and I'm having trouble finding floppies to use with it. Does anyone know of a source for cheap 5.25" DSDD floppies (I doubt DSQD are available any more)? -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From broth at heathers.stdio.com Mon May 7 18:43:41 2001 From: broth at heathers.stdio.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage In-Reply-To: <3AF72896.860B9EBF@timharrison.com> References: <200105051613.MAA02417@wordstock.com> <01050614323401.08768@fatty> <3AF72896.860B9EBF@timharrison.com> Message-ID: <01050719495600.00795@fatty> On Mon, 07 May 2001, you wrote: You ever need help for a DEC related rescue, let me know. I'm just north of Buffalo. Big stuff would probably be tough going back to the US though. If you run across anything that you don't have room for or don't need, I'm game. I'll be headed over soon for a day on Queen St. Couple of nice electronic surplus shops there then over to "The Stem" for a hi-test greaseburger if it hasn't been shut down yet. Brian. > Yeah, I'm not much of a hocky fan, but check out http://www.gohabs.com. > Lot's o' stuff there. Maybe they're serving the site from an old VAX > (cheap tie-in, I know...). > You guys are drowning in cars. > > It's not too bad (if you want to commute at 3am or so). I was working > in downtown (King W.) and out in Mississauga, and you were pretty much > screwed whether you took the 401 or the Gardiner. > > For classiccmp tie-in, the data centre we took over was the old National > Trust at 55 City Centre, across from Square One mall. I found some old > DEC term servers in there, and rescued two. There were also what > appeared to be hubs of some form, where each port was a full sized card > (looked like VME, but quite sure it wasn't). I couldn't save them, as > the entire enclosure made my PDP-11 look small. > > -- > > > Tim Harrison > Network Engineer > harrison@timharrison.com > http://www.networklevel.com/ -- Brian Roth - System Administrator www.webwirz.com - Old Computer Repository Preoccupation is my main occupation..... From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon May 7 19:49:03 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated In-Reply-To: <200105072359.QAA25850@shell1.aracnet.com> References: <200105072359.QAA25850@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: >I had a Kaypro 2000 running 2.11 on a 720k drive. I've successfully read >data disks from that system on my PowerMac G4/450 with a 1.44MB USB Floppy >drive. Zane, Using which of the emulators? When I was using a PowerCurve I was able to manipulate DOS disks just fine using SoftPC (yes, I know it's ancient) but it doesn't like the Teac USB floppy on the B/W G3/450. As an aside, it was pretty cool the other day at work when we needed a bare DOS boot disk and the guys in the office couldn't come up with one. Took me no time at all to format a DOS 5 booter using my Mac though Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Mon May 7 20:26:59 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated In-Reply-To: from Jeff Hellige at "May 7, 1 08:49:03 pm" Message-ID: <200105080126.SAA14518@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Using which of the emulators? When I was using a PowerCurve > I was able to manipulate DOS disks just fine using SoftPC (yes, I > know it's ancient) but it doesn't like the Teac USB floppy on the B/W > G3/450. I'm betting Virtual PC. I use VPC3 myself -- an excellent emulator (but it's on my PowerMac 7300 [converted to G3/400], so I've already got a real floppy drive here ;-). -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Justice is incidental to law and order. -- J. Edgar Hoover ----------------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 7 20:37:28 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Hellige" at May 07, 2001 08:49:03 PM Message-ID: <200105080137.SAA30255@shell1.aracnet.com> > Using which of the emulators? When I was using a PowerCurve > I was able to manipulate DOS disks just fine using SoftPC (yes, I > know it's ancient) but it doesn't like the Teac USB floppy on the B/W > G3/450. As an aside, it was pretty cool the other day at work when Actually I didn't bother using any emulator. The disks all contained Word Perfect V4.2 data, and I just copied them over to the Mac's Hard Drive. When I am using an Emulator I use Virtual PC. I've had no trouble with my USB Floppy and Virtual PC, though my Mom has had some problems with it and her LS120 USB drive on her iBook (of course her biggest problem is the stupid thing can't be plugged into a USB Hub). Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 7 20:39:24 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated In-Reply-To: <200105080126.SAA14518@stockholm.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at May 07, 2001 06:26:59 PM Message-ID: <200105080139.SAA30268@shell1.aracnet.com> > I'm betting Virtual PC. I use VPC3 myself -- an excellent emulator (but > it's on my PowerMac 7300 [converted to G3/400], so I've already got a > real floppy drive here ;-). Yep, and VPC4, which I just got, and haven't really used looks to be even better. I *really* like how you can select different HD images to boot from when you start VPC4 up! Now I just need a bigger HD to hold a couple different images :^) Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 7 20:41:23 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: RX50 Replacement In-Reply-To: <200105080032.f480WIi10377@narnia.int.dittman.net> from "Eric Dittman" at May 07, 2001 07:32:17 PM Message-ID: <200105080141.SAA30375@shell1.aracnet.com> > I have a Pro380 and I'm having trouble finding > floppies to use with it. Does anyone know of > a source for cheap 5.25" DSDD floppies (I doubt > DSQD are available any more)? Best bet will probably be your local swap meets or junk shops. Zane From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon May 7 20:46:30 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated In-Reply-To: <200105080126.SAA14518@stockholm.ptloma.edu> References: <200105080126.SAA14518@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: >I'm betting Virtual PC. I use VPC3 myself -- an excellent emulator (but >it's on my PowerMac 7300 [converted to G3/400], so I've already got a >real floppy drive here ;-). I figured he was likely using VPC3, but since he has a G4 I thought he might be running VPC4 as well, or possibly even SoftWindows. As for the floppy, the USB type does most anything I want it to do. I just can't use it with SoftPC. One of the main things I used it for beofre with a standard Mac floppy drive was to create PS/2 disk images and such. I've begun using my upgraded PM 6100 for that type of thing now. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From guntis at cyberstate.infi.net Mon May 7 08:45:56 2001 From: guntis at cyberstate.infi.net (Guntis Sprenne) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated floppy disk Message-ID: <000201c0d702$a332dd60$8db5f7a5@guntis> Depends on the machine it was written in. Many machines back then had 720K floppies, which look like 1.44M floppies except for the 'density' hole. The 'old' machine would write the HD floppy in 720K format. The 'new' machine (NT) would sense the density hole and attempt to read the floppy as a 1.44M. If possible, use a 'real' 720K floppy (one without the density hole) to write the data if the drive in the machine is only 720K. That way the new machine will sense that it is a 720K floppy and read it accordingly. You could just tape over the density hole on a HD floppy - just make sure you format it on the 'old' machine before writing to it. Of course, if the old machine can really use the 1.44M floppy then the above won't help much. :-} AFAIK the floppy format has remained relatively stable. At least through NT4 and WIN9x. Guntis. From: jimmy tsai I need help to solve a problem. Could anyone lends a hand? The company I work for has a machine that runs on DOS 2.11 There are some data on that machine that we need to retrieve. The information is transfered from that old machine to a 1.44mb floppy. When we put the floppy into our pentium winNT4 computer , we can not read the information on the floppy. The NT os simply says it does not know what format the files are at. Now do I need to install a dos 2.11 or is there anyway around it ? What is the format the dos2.11 writing its files in? Are there any program that reads in that type of format? Does any one here have DOS 2.11 that I can download? Even if I do have DOS 2.11, will I be able to install it or do I need very old hardware as well? From vance at ikickass.org Mon May 7 21:44:55 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Vance Dereksen) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: IBM Series/1 Message-ID: Anyone know where I can get technical docs for this thing? I have a couple of programming manuals, but I would like stuff like service manuals and hardware configuration guides. Peace... Sridhar From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon May 7 20:55:30 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: Brand new, old stock IBM keyboards In-Reply-To: <3AF6BED2.7924B06B@internet1.net> References: <200105062240.f46Meb800764@bg-tc-ppp427.monmouth.com> <200105062240.f46Meb800764@bg-tc-ppp427.monmouth.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20010507010347.022364d0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: Getting to the bottom of this auction I started on last week, current find are some brand new in the box IBM brand AT/XT era keyboards. Anybody on the list want one for $10 and shipping before I eBay the rest? (I have one buried in my car, so I can check model number etc. later tonight) From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 7 22:12:29 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated floppy disk In-Reply-To: <000201c0d702$a332dd60$8db5f7a5@guntis> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 May 2001, Guntis Sprenne wrote: > AFAIK the floppy format has remained relatively stable. At least > through NT4 and WIN9x. AFTER it stabilized (PC-DOS 3.20 720K and 3.30 1.4M), it remained relatively stable. But 2.11 was BEFORE it stabilized, and there were several different, mutually incompatible 720K formats (there were also some CP/M 3.5" formats) http://www.xenosoft.com/fmts.html#3.5 (some CP/M and a bunch of different MS-DOS 3.5" formats) -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 From dittman at dittman.net Mon May 7 22:18:04 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: RX50 Replacement In-Reply-To: <200105080141.SAA30375@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at May 07, 2001 06:41:23 PM Message-ID: <200105080318.f483I4p01104@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > I have a Pro380 and I'm having trouble finding > > floppies to use with it. Does anyone know of > > a source for cheap 5.25" DSDD floppies (I doubt > > DSQD are available any more)? > > Best bet will probably be your local swap meets or junk shops. I've tried that and both places so far had thrown them out a couple of months ago. My neighbor had a couple of boxes, but they were stored in their attic and they aren't formatting. I've tried a DSQD drive from my AmproLB system and a DSHD drive and neither would format the drives (unless I can't use the MSDOS prompt from Win98 with 22DISK or TELEDISK). -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From donm at cts.com Mon May 7 22:23:23 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage In-Reply-To: <339.528T1000T84461optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 8 May 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Bryan Pope skrev: > > >New York! ewwww.... I am from Ingersoll, a little town (Pop. 9500) > > Ingersoll... That name sounds familiar. Isn't that the name of some late 70s > video game console? Not sure about that, but it was half the name of an outfit that built air compressors :) - don > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > Sagt, ist noch ein Land, au?er Deutschland, wo man die Nase eher r?mpfen lernt > als putzen? > --- Georg Christoph Lichtenberg > > From jpl15 at panix.com Mon May 7 22:34:39 2001 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: Serious Request For Moderation (On Topic) In-Reply-To: <004501c0d71d$48ea1e20$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: What this List needs is an infusion of persons whose emotioanl development seems to have progressed beyond their early teens (no offense meant if you *are* in your early teens, BTW)... ie people who can tolerate dissenting opinions, who can follow with more or less interest the splinter conversations that (quite organically) take place here at times, and who... [Ghod grant this wish, if nothing else!] can just hit the damned DELETE button if you don't want to read something, and just Get On With It!! harrumph John From donm at cts.com Mon May 7 22:45:03 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: RX50 Replacement In-Reply-To: <200105080318.f483I4p01104@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 May 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > > > I have a Pro380 and I'm having trouble finding > > > floppies to use with it. Does anyone know of > > > a source for cheap 5.25" DSDD floppies (I doubt > > > DSQD are available any more)? You might check with www.cadigital.com who had such in the recent past at least. - don > > Best bet will probably be your local swap meets or junk shops. > > I've tried that and both places so far had > thrown them out a couple of months ago. My > neighbor had a couple of boxes, but they > were stored in their attic and they aren't > formatting. I've tried a DSQD drive from > my AmproLB system and a DSHD drive and > neither would format the drives (unless I > can't use the MSDOS prompt from Win98 with > 22DISK or TELEDISK). > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > From rdd at smart.net Mon May 7 22:51:08 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: Seriously OT: Firearms (was RE: Interesting show on the ComputerGarage) In-Reply-To: <506.527T950T13685079optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 7 May 2001, Iggy Drougge appears to have sought help as he wrote: > The difference is that Windows ranks along with whips, thumbscrews > and other SM tools. It's mostly used my masochists, who at least > undergo their treatment more or less willingly. Are you trying to tell us something about your fantasies or sex-life? Have you always enjoyed being abused by computers running annoying software? Don't worry, I'm sure that this group can help to cure you, as fantasizing over Mickeysoft products causes you to be a danger to yourself and others. Please lay down on the couch and tell us all you that you can remember about the first time that you fantasized about being tortured by computers. Do your computers wear spiked leather dust covers? Do they make you type with your tongue while ordering you to to repeat "setag llib" over and over again as you try to type? Do you hear them talking to you and giving you commands even when you're not near them? Does it interfere with your work, and ablity to live a healthy and enjoyable life, when you flagellate yourself with the power cord and pretend that your computer is doing this do you? Tell us about your early childhood... Did something involving firearms happen to you as a child that made you fear useful computers and the words "shutdown", "sync" and "halt"? Anyway, it appears that there's a difference between Windoze users and masochists.. Masochists desire and seek pain. Windoze users get painful computing experiences not because they seek it, but because they either have no clue that there's a less painlfull way to use a computer, or because they've been brainwashed by Microsoft's propaganga. Of course, that's not to say that there aren't some masochists out there who get their jollies by being tortured by lost files, system crashes, a system that's a nuisance to use, etc. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From kd7bcy at teleport.com Mon May 7 22:45:57 2001 From: kd7bcy at teleport.com (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: IBM Series/1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Anyone know where I can get technical docs for this thing? I have a >couple of programming manuals, but I would like stuff like service manuals >and hardware configuration guides. I have several binders full of what I guess are service manuals - complete schematics and take-apart/installation guides, that sort of stuff. I don't know where they all are at the moment, but if you send me the model numbers for what you need I'll dig around and see if I have them. They are VERY large so photocopies would probably be difficult(guess I'll have to go see how much so and how expensive), but I do have a few extras for a few things(I think I have three sets for one of the hard drives). It'll take me a while to dig through everything though. Don't expect to find anything online... There is a very limited amount of what appears to be sales info and basic specs on one of IBM's web sites, but I don't have it bookmarked right now. BTW, if anyone has a spare working 120v hard drive, I need one! I'd also love to get ahold of some software(like an OS?!). I think I have a 4956-K00 CPU(haven't looked at it in a while). -- /------------------------------------\ | http://jrollins.tripod.com/ | | KD7BCY kd7bcy@teleport.com | \------------------------------------/ From rdd at smart.net Mon May 7 22:58:24 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: Brand new, old stock IBM keyboards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 7 May 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > Getting to the bottom of this auction I started on last week, current find > are some brand new in the box IBM brand AT/XT era keyboards. Anybody on the > list want one for $10 and shipping before I eBay the rest? (I have one > buried in my car, so I can check model number etc. later tonight) Thanks! Count me in! I could use a new XT keyboard... and an AT keyboard. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From mbbrutman at chartermi.net Mon May 7 22:53:12 2001 From: mbbrutman at chartermi.net (Michael Brutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: PCjr keyboards Message-ID: <3AF76DA8.F3E3950C@bresnanlink.net> Oh!! A PCjr question! Oh oh!!! A stock PC keyboard will not hook up to the Jr because the Jr is, well goofy. There is a technical description behind goofy and I can take an hour to paraphrase the technical reference manual, but not right now ... You have three options: [1] Find a real PCjr keyboard, either the original chiclet or the improved keyboard. These show up on (gasp) ebay once in a while, without the rest of the computer. [2] Find a pseudo-real PCjr keyboard - Keytronic made some really nice keyboards and numeric keypads for the PCjr. [3] Find an adapter. Several companies made these, but I think they are very rare. I've never seen one, and I'm sure that not many were sold. Good luck. PCjrs are wonderful little machines. Here is my contribution to classic computing: http://pws.chartermi.net/~mbbrutman/PCjr/ Mike PS: The gun discussion is rediculous. Please stop. Wading through the digest is hard enough. Wading through it when half the messages are about gun control and life vs. death situations is even more difficult. A newsgroup or discussion list probably is not a good place to discuss this, especially a discussion list dedicated to classic computers! From fernande at internet1.net Tue May 8 00:10:00 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: Brand new, old stock IBM keyboards References: <200105062240.f46Meb800764@bg-tc-ppp427.monmouth.com> <200105062240.f46Meb800764@bg-tc-ppp427.monmouth.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20010507010347.022364d0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <3AF77FA8.FC6A3DCE@internet1.net> Mike, I would love to get an NOS Model M, if you have one available. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Mike Ford wrote: > > Getting to the bottom of this auction I started on last week, current find > are some brand new in the box IBM brand AT/XT era keyboards. Anybody on the > list want one for $10 and shipping before I eBay the rest? (I have one > buried in my car, so I can check model number etc. later tonight) From fernande at internet1.net Tue May 8 00:18:06 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: RX50 Replacement References: <200105080032.f480WIi10377@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <3AF7818E.F353971@internet1.net> A year or so ago, Walmart was still carrying DSDD. You might check your local store, if you are in the US. If they don't have them, you can check Ebay. When I have run across them, they have been pretty cheap. Failing that, I have way more than I can use. What is DSQD? Double Sided Quad Density?? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Eric Dittman wrote: > > I have a Pro380 and I'm having trouble finding > floppies to use with it. Does anyone know of > a source for cheap 5.25" DSDD floppies (I doubt > DSQD are available any more)? > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net From liste at artware.qc.ca Tue May 8 00:33:43 2001 From: liste at artware.qc.ca (liste@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: PCjr keyboards In-Reply-To: <3AF76DA8.F3E3950C@bresnanlink.net> Message-ID: On 08-May-2001 Michael Brutman wrote: > > Oh!! A PCjr question! Oh oh!!! Yeah! PCjr! > [3] Find an adapter. Several companies made these, but I > think they are very rare. I've never seen one, and I'm > sure that not many were sold. > All PCjrs (3 of them) I've come into contact with (I "learnt" programming in cassette BASIC way back then) had the adapter and IBM "clickmatic" keyboards. I don't know if they are that rare. However, identifying one that isn't still "mated" to a computer might be hard. -Philip From dittman at dittman.net Tue May 8 00:51:07 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: RX50 Replacement In-Reply-To: <3AF7818E.F353971@internet1.net> from "Chad Fernandez" at May 08, 2001 01:18:06 AM Message-ID: <200105080551.f485p7I01637@narnia.int.dittman.net> > A year or so ago, Walmart was still carrying DSDD. You might check your > local store, if you are in the US. If they don't have them, you can > check Ebay. When I have run across them, they have been pretty cheap. > Failing that, I have way more than I can use. > > What is DSQD? Double Sided Quad Density?? DSQD is DD 96tpi. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue May 8 01:32:53 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: RX50 Replacement In-Reply-To: <200105080318.f483I4p01104@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: <200105080141.SAA30375@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010507233132.02903e90@mail.zipcon.net> Eric, email me, I may have some spares floating around :) also I will keep my eyes out for dsdd disks in this area, I have a feeling that i may know somewhere to get a bunch :) and if so I will make them available to other classic comp ppl :) At 10:18 PM 5/7/01 -0500, you wrote: > > > I have a Pro380 and I'm having trouble finding > > > floppies to use with it. Does anyone know of > > > a source for cheap 5.25" DSDD floppies (I doubt > > > DSQD are available any more)? > > > > Best bet will probably be your local swap meets or junk shops. > >I've tried that and both places so far had >thrown them out a couple of months ago. My >neighbor had a couple of boxes, but they >were stored in their attic and they aren't >formatting. I've tried a DSQD drive from >my AmproLB system and a DSHD drive and >neither would format the drives (unless I >can't use the MSDOS prompt from Win98 with >22DISK or TELEDISK). >-- >Eric Dittman >dittman@dittman.net From frustum at pacbell.net Tue May 8 01:54:12 2001 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:09 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? In-Reply-To: <004f01c0d64c$56e54b20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010507235008.00b7daf0@postoffice.pacbell.net> At 10:48 AM 5/6/01 -0600, you wrote: >I doubt it was really 68K transistors. If you multiply out the number of >transistors needed to implement the registers and counters, then add 50% >for the >ALU and double the whole thing for the control logic, you'll probably have as >good a count. Don't forget that the 68K was microcoded; lots and lots of transistors were used just for that. In fact, I recall reading that it was described as "68000 potential transistors" because otherwise the transistor count would have been dependent on the number of 1's or 0's in the microcode store. I found transistor counts for a few other processors from a book I have on my shelf: MC6800 -- 6000, 57.5% MC68000 -- 60000, 69% IAPX 432 -- 150000, 84% (two chips) MC68020 -- 192000, 70% IAPX 386 -- 275000, 70.5% (% is portion of chip dedicated to control logic [vs datapath]) From "The Architecture of Microprocessors", Fracois Anceau, p. 107 This book is in large part based on reverse engineering microprocessors using a microphotographs (or is that photomicrographs?) ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From bkr at WildHareComputers.com Tue May 8 03:29:24 2001 From: bkr at WildHareComputers.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: D-116 Digital Computer Controls - minicomputer References: Message-ID: <001c01c0d798$fe34ae00$0100a8c0@dellhare> The original Rolm 1601 ads were for "Ruggedized" Novas even though they were really MilSpec'ed as Chris K. corrected. I guess marketing thought "Ruggedized" sounded better.. uhhhh.... more rugged?... than MilSpec'ed. They have the MilSecs annotated in their sales literature and the MTBF calculations described in other manuals (I didn't think anybody interested enought for me to put them on the web site.) Norden's (United Technologies) claim to competitive fame was the ruggedized DEC 11 and VAX stuff, and was a "ruggedized" version of the corresponding commercial hardware. Oh, Chris, the MSE/30 is now pictured on the Rolm page at the www.SimuLogics.com site (www.SimuLogics.com/nostalgia/rolm/rolm.htm). I never did get to use ARTS[/32] and don't have any info on it... anything hiding in the documentation shelf? Bruce bkr@SimuLogics.com -or- bkr@WildHareComputers.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Kennedy" To: Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 12:33 PM Subject: RE: D-116 Digital Computer Controls - minicomputer > Bruce wrote: > > > Rolm systems were used in some very "cool" ruggedized applications, some > we > > can even talk about now. They extended the standard Nova instruction set > > like most other 3rd party knockoffs did, but typically standard DG > software > > was used for program development by us poor software types. > > > "Ruggedized"? Puh-lease ;-) Norden made "ruggedized" stuff, meaning > commercial > boards stuffed into a beefed-up chassis. We made _militarized_ stuff at > ROLM, > which with of two painful exceptions were not even based on DG > implementations > (so-called "punches" of DG machines; one was a 1/2 ATR S/130 clone, the > other > was a punch of the MV8K that was so incredibly miserable that only two were > built). > > Life at ROLM started with the 1601, which was essentially a Nova 800, and > progressed through the 1666, which added things like stacks but in a fashion > utterly incompatible with the way DG wedged them into the Nova 3. Most > 16XX series machines went to the Navy, although as far as I can tell the > largest single buyer of them was MacDAC for use in the GLCM/SLCM (ground/sea > launch cruise missile) erector/launch system. As an interesting(?) aside, > the 16xx machines maintained the Nova I/O bus, including the utter lack of > parity or any other form of error detection. When the NAB people got wind > of > this they went (understandably) nuts and Eddie Yee had to work magic with > ROLM's version of RTOS in order for the system to qualify for use with > "specials". > > As Bruce suggested, _most_ DG code would run on ROLM processors, although > ROLM also vended its own operating systems (ARTS and ARTS/32) and peddled > their own language (MSL -- The "MilSpec Language" which looked a great deal > like something between BCPL and C, minus byte pointers, which were a pain in > the ass to make work right thanks to the fact that the Nova was a word > oriented > machine). > > The culmination of hardware at ROLM was the Hawk/32, which was an original > implementation of the Eagle (MV) architecture, which was supposed to be > coupled > with a painfully advanced B3-secure distributed OS named MARVIN (the > derivation > of the name is complex; basically those of us who were originally assigned > to > the project were considered to have bad attitudes so the project took its > name > from the similarly attitude-impaired android from "The Hitchhiker's Guide to > The Galaxy". When pressed by marketing for the underlying meaning of the > term, > we offered up "Multiprocessor Advanced Virtually Interconnected Network", > which > the marketing drones gobbled up and immediately started regurgitating to the > customer base). MARVIN hit the dustbin about the time that the MSC division > was purchased from IBM by Loral. > > In a blast-from-the-past, the PlayStation II/CPU2 project brought three of > us > ROLM refugees together at Toshiba. Each of us had in tow a statue of a hawk > that was handed out upon completion of the Hawk/32 project. As each of us > jointed the project the staff would be abuzz about how we were stealing this > statue from each other -- until they realized that there were several of > these > things running around the office... > > Back to the D-116; I have a complete set of prints hanging about if someone > needs > copies. They appear to have belonged to a FE; the print for the front panel > has > been attacked with color highlighters, and the microswitch that disables the > front panel when the key is in the "lock" position has a large circle drawn > around it with a like leading to handwritten text that reads: > > "Dear diary: Today is fucked". > > > -- > Chris Kennedy > chris@mainecoon.com > http://www.mainecoon.com > PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 8 02:25:42 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: Mac Portable (Was Re: Seriously OT: Firearms) In-Reply-To: <10105072052.ZM8076@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: Mike Ford "Re: Mac Portable (Was Re: Seriously OT: Firearms)" (May 7, 0:57) Message-ID: >Mike, are these the same batteries used in the Mac Plus? I can't seem to >find any equivalent over here. Nope, the plus uses something different a PX-21 4.5v alkline (longer than a AA as I remember), others are 3.6v 1/2 AA lithium, and the ones I have Rayovac 844B are 4.5v alkaline. The Battery Company in the UK I am told carries them, but it appears to be used in some cameras as well, so maybe some larger camera shops would also have them. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 8 02:36:10 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: Trenton State Computer Festival In-Reply-To: <200105072052.NAA14590@shell1.aracnet.com> References: from "Tony Duell" at May 07, 2001 06:35:07 PM Message-ID: >It's not a Computer, but I know for a fact that an HP5MP Laserjet will not >work with 60ns RAM, it wants 70ns RAM (company I bought the RAM from sent >60ns by mistake). It just plain wouldn't recognize the RAM. I suspect some other incompatibility was the problem, since plenty of 70 ns will actually run at 60 ns. I never heard of a memory process test to be sure memory would not run at a slightly higher speed under at least some conditions. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 8 03:26:39 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: Brand new, old stock IBM keyboards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Mon, 7 May 2001, Mike Ford wrote: >> Getting to the bottom of this auction I started on last week, current find >> are some brand new in the box IBM brand AT/XT era keyboards. Anybody on the >> list want one for $10 and shipping before I eBay the rest? (I have one >> buried in my car, so I can check model number etc. later tonight) These are the heavy original keyboards, PN 1503206. The badge at the top left says IBM Personal Computer, below it is a double column of 10 function keys in a darker shade, the Qwerty matching the case, with a numeric section on the right, and NO LEDS that I could find. The cable is coiled black with the big 5 pin thing (AT?). I have two now, but ONE of those is MINE. I may be able to get as many as 8 more in the morning, so far about 5 people want one. From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Tue May 8 06:02:29 2001 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: eBay alert: TI 980B mini and a HUGE IBM drive Message-ID: <07E0E649A9C3D411A80A0020350804BD3612F9@exch002.softwright.co.uk> OK, that has to be the coolest-looking piece of junk I've seen :-) Does anyone have any websites dedicated to all of the huge old oddball stuff like this? Jules > ---------- > From: ip500[SMTP:ip500@home.com] > Sent: 04 May 2001 20:35 > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: eBay alert: TI 980B mini and a HUGE IBM drive > > Lay of the crack! Powder is much easier on the memory!! And that was > here, about a month ago. I've got one hanging over my desk on BIG chains > secured to eyebolts into the main joists of the floor above. Good > conversation piece! > Craig > > URL for the pix is: > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1235355979 > > "Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote: > > > > Quoting ip500 : > > > IBM drive 1235355979 > > > These were not offered here first > > > > No, but I think I remember someone talking about finding the big IBM > > drives on this list and even posting those same pictures. Or maybe > > that was another list. Or maybe I should lay off the crack... > > > > -- > > Jeffrey S. Sharp > > jss@ou.edu > From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Tue May 8 07:11:26 2001 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 4 May 2001 18:48:40 +0100 (BST) Tony Duell wrote: > Didn't some of the early > Japanese home computers have 6809-like CPUs in them? Yes, they did. According to Byte magazine, May 1982, the Canon CX-1 had a 6809, and so did the Hitachi MB-6890. The Fujitsu FM-8 had two 6809s and a 4-bit 8841, whatever that is. Wasn't there an SWTPC machine with a 6809 in it? And I seem to recall a rather odd thing called the "Positron" that had a 6809, Prestel/Teletext graphics and an MMU for multi-tasking. > And it turns up in embedded control systems -- a PLC > that I fell over in my workshop today (seriously) has a 6809 CPU on the > mainboard. My Stag EPROM programmer has one, too. But my Tektronix 833 Data Comms Tester has a 6800. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Tue May 8 07:17:56 2001 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: Computers as weapons In-Reply-To: <015101c0d735$15cbf320$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 May 2001 14:34:16 -0600 Mark Gregory wrote: > I think this is standard boilerplate for software that's not tested and > guaranteed to be fault-tolerant. I know I've seen something similar on > Amiga OS 3.5 and 3.9 licences. I remember grinning about the "nuclear > facilities" part. When I worked on presentation graphics software, back in 1986/7 (long before PowerPoint!), we made a sale to a nuclear power station. They wanted to buy the software for the usual training and management applications, but weren't allowed to. We had to re-write the software licence agreement for them, so that it would pass their buying policy -- which applied to *all* software they bought. I forget the details, but they were not allowed to buy software under a licence that could be revoked, leaving them unable to use it. All this seemed very odd to a newly-graduated geek like myself... Oh, the software was called the Enhanced Personal Presentation System, or EPPS. Anyone ever heard of it? -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue May 8 07:52:20 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <01May8.090302edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> On Tuesday, May 8, 2001, at 08:11 AM, John Honniball wrote: > Wasn't there an SWTPC machine with a 6809 in it? Eric would know more about the SWTPC machines than I, but there were at least 3 different models with the 6809: 69/A, 69/K, and the S/09. There may even possibly be more, as I have what appears to be a S/09 but the model on the chasis shows S/00. Jeff From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue May 8 07:54:12 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: Computers as weapons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <01May8.090444edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> On Tuesday, May 8, 2001, at 08:17 AM, John Honniball wrote: > When I worked on presentation graphics software, back in > 1986/7 (long before PowerPoint!), we made a sale to a The days of Harvard Graphics too. Wasn't it the first of the Powerpoint-type programs to become popular? Jeff From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Tue May 8 08:03:45 2001 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: Computers as weapons In-Reply-To: <01May8.090444edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 May 2001 08:54:12 -0400 Jeff Hellige wrote: > On Tuesday, May 8, 2001, at 08:17 AM, John Honniball wrote: > > When I worked on presentation graphics software, back in > > 1986/7 (long before PowerPoint!), we made a sale to a > > The days of Harvard Graphics too. Wasn't it the first of the > Powerpoint-type programs to become popular? Harvard Graphics was one of our biggest competitors! There were a few companies doing business graphics, at a time when many PCs were monochome text-only. We produced a CGA (320x200x4 colour) version called PPS (Personal Presentation System) and an EGA version called EPPS. Then there was the ill-fated Olivetti version for the M24 add-on graphics board. We had 1500 copies made, with fancy manuals and slip-cases, and sold 27 of them. But wasn't there a package called "The Dog And Pony Show"? We ended up selling an American program called Kinetic Graphics that could do very high-res 35mm slides, but couldn't cope with European A4 size paper. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Tue May 8 08:41:31 2001 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated flopp y disk Message-ID: Skipped content of type multipart/alternative From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Tue May 8 08:49:54 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: PCjr keyboards In-Reply-To: from "liste@artware.qc.ca" at "May 8, 1 01:33:43 am" Message-ID: <200105081349.GAA10416@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > All PCjrs (3 of them) I've come into contact with (I "learnt" programming > in cassette BASIC way back then) had the adapter and IBM "clickmatic" > keyboards. I don't know if they are that rare. However, identifying one > that isn't still "mated" to a computer might be hard. The PCjr I have is still infrared, but at least it has the "proper" keyboard and not the Chiclet one. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. -- Gen. O. N. Bradley From edick at idcomm.com Tue May 8 09:09:16 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? References: <4.3.2.7.0.20010507235008.00b7daf0@postoffice.pacbell.net> Message-ID: <000901c0d7c8$77d2ab20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> A photomicrograph is a picture of the die, in this context. Looking at a map of the device, in the form of an aerial photograph, which is what this is, gives a general notion of the relative size of the structures on the die, and, in some cases, allows for recognition of their functions. I wouldn't bet my paycheck on guessing what a given structure is, just based on its apppearance on the typical photomicrograph, however. Intel used posters consisting of photomicrographs of their products, back in the late '70's-early '80's in their marketing effort. Some of these were sufficient, if one collected them all, to allow for claims of reverse engineering some of their prominent and popular parts, e.g. the '186, and the 8751. It was certainly possible to recognize some structures, like EPROM cells, RAM cells, etc, based on their geometry. I suppose one could have learned a great deal with enough time and effort, along with a complete, layer-by-layer, set of pictures. However, I rather imagine that folks smart enough to reverse-engineer the devices from the pictures, probably could have done the job without them. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Battle" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 12:54 AM Subject: Re: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? > At 10:48 AM 5/6/01 -0600, you wrote: > >I doubt it was really 68K transistors. If you multiply out the number of > >transistors needed to implement the registers and counters, then add 50% > >for the > >ALU and double the whole thing for the control logic, you'll probably have as > >good a count. > > Don't forget that the 68K was microcoded; lots and lots of transistors were > used just for that. In fact, I recall reading that it was described as > "68000 potential transistors" because otherwise the transistor count would > have been dependent on the number of 1's or 0's in the microcode store. > > I found transistor counts for a few other processors from a book I have on > my shelf: > > MC6800 -- 6000, 57.5% > MC68000 -- 60000, 69% > IAPX 432 -- 150000, 84% (two chips) > MC68020 -- 192000, 70% > IAPX 386 -- 275000, 70.5% > > (% is portion of chip dedicated to control logic [vs datapath]) > > From "The Architecture of Microprocessors", Fracois Anceau, p. 107 > > This book is in large part based on reverse engineering microprocessors > using a microphotographs (or is that photomicrographs?) > > ----- > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue May 8 09:18:27 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? References: <001d01c0d647$a3b45360$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3AF57F15.46DD6B69@home.com> Message-ID: <002901c0d7c9$c07ba1a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> While this photo equipment is interesting in its own right, it isn't of a generation that is likely to have been used in the '70's generation photolithography. The view cameras I had while touring Europe in the '60's (in the Army) were made of precisely manufactured die-cast and machined aluminum with brass or steel gears, etc. Those were for taking pictures of beautiful old buildings and of landscapes, etc. The equippment used to produce integrated circuits wasn't made of wood. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "ip500" To: Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 10:43 AM Subject: Re: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? > Speaking of die size and # of transistors packed onto a chip .... > In a batch of other interesting stuff I received an odd looking camera > reduction system. Looks a good bit like a 1920's Photographers "View" > camera. Used 4" X 5" Ferroxoplates. It [unlike the 20's version] is > built entirely of metal [heavy --about 25 pounds]. It is supposed to > have been used to reduce chip drawings down to actual production die > size. No name anywhere .. almost looks to be lab or shop built. I've > posted a couple of pix at: > http://members.home.net/ip500/chipmain.JPG > http://members.home.net/ip500/chipart.JPG > http://members.home.net/ip500/chipback.JPG > The second picture is of the only exposed "plate" that came with the > system. Third pix showing the back and partial interior is interesting > in that the plate is held to the back by vacuum. A hose runs out the > back and the vacuum acts through tiny channels milled into the back of > the camera. Any thoughts or comments appreciated. NO APPRAISELS are > solicited! > Thanks, Craig > > > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > Real data is nice, but I find it odd that the 6502 shows up with so much more > > die size when the transistor count matches the 6800 so closely. The Z80, and > > 6502 were both presumably built with more or less the same design rules, and, as > > one might expect, the 6800 and 6502 should have approximately the same > > transistor count, having approximately the same internal resources. Note how > > the figure for the 8085 tracks the Z80 figure, scaled back for the fact it (the > > 8085) lacks the alternate register set, approximately. I don't trust the > > indicated die-size, however, since, back in '76, when the 650x series was new, > > it was reputed to have the smallest die size of any of the then-current 8-bit > > CPU's. After all, that's how they (MOS Technology) bought their market share. > > Everything seems to fit, with the exception of that die size figure in this > > case. > > > > The 8008 was a couple of generations earlier than the 8085, but the 8085, 6502, > > and Z80 were all built in the same geometry. The 8080 and 6800 were both about > > the same generation, hence also built in the same design rules and geometry. > > Note that the 1802 die is bigger, being a CMOS device. > > > > The die size for the 68K also seems to match what I remember of the die that was > > glued to my datasheet at that sales pitch I mentioned in an earlier post. Keep > > in mind, however, that the area was 1/4 that of the previous generation, as > > there had been a halving of the drawn channel widths. While I believe that the > > transistor count may have been more of a marketing ploy than a reliable count, > > if you take into consideration the relatively large register size and count > > contained in the 68K and combine that with the substantially smaller geometry in > > which it was fabricated, it seems to match up with the majority of the remaining > > figures. > > > > Dick > > > > From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Tue May 8 09:41:54 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: "Every OS Sucks" Message-ID: <200105081441.HAA13434@stockholm.ptloma.edu> The great irony is that you can't display this video on anything but the modern OSes that the video alleges "suck" (viz., you need Real-ly Bad Player and/or Windows World Media Domination Player). http://cramsession.brainbuzz.com/video/everyossucks/default.asp?OSsucks=Open -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- DON'T PANIC! --------------------------------------------------------------- From ken at seefried.com Tue May 8 09:53:18 2001 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: > Subject: Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On Topic) In-Reply-To: <200105080657.BAA89832@opal.tseinc.com> References: <200105080657.BAA89832@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <20010508145318.24403.qmail@mail.seefried.com> > From: "Sipke de Wal" > > I'll turn to all of you my other cheek while thinking > that this list is in serious need of a MODERATOR > Here, here. Two months on the list, and from what I can see one third of the postings have consisted of rude, ignorant, childish, self-righteous people flaming (pro & con) about eBay, and one third of rude, ignorant, childish, self-righteous people flaming about gun control (pro & con). Barely a quarter of any of the traffic is actaully about classic computers. I might point out for those on the list that clearly enjoy that type of signal-noise ratio, there are *other* places where you can go to vent your spleen dedicated to the topics. Of course, now we'll get two weeks of the same people going back and forth about moderation, and how vitally important and relevant to the classic computer world their opinions about eBay & gun control are, with the associated escalation of insults and derision... Nevermind... Ken From RCini at congressfinancial.com Tue May 8 10:20:47 2001 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: Serious Request For Moderation (On Topic) Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E58798DF@MAIL10> I have a simple way of dealing with off-topic items that usually don't interest me (like musings about eBay or gun control)...it's called the key. I don't let these tangents concern me as they eventually burn themselves out like an LED that one has connected directly to a 12v power supply. I've been on this list for, what, 4 years now. Everyone will have an opinion on any given topic. It's what gives the list some personality at the expense of some bandwidth. Time for a diversion. OK, let's bash Microsoft... Rich -----Original Message----- From: Ken Seefried [mailto:ken@seefried.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 10:53 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: > Subject: Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On Topic) > From: "Sipke de Wal" > > I'll turn to all of you my other cheek while thinking > that this list is in serious need of a MODERATOR > Here, here. Two months on the list, and from what I can see one third of the postings have consisted of rude, ignorant, childish, self-righteous people flaming (pro & con) about eBay, and one third of rude, ignorant, childish, self-righteous people flaming about gun control (pro & con). Barely a quarter of any of the traffic is actaully about classic computers. I might point out for those on the list that clearly enjoy that type of signal-noise ratio, there are *other* places where you can go to vent your spleen dedicated to the topics. Of course, now we'll get two weeks of the same people going back and forth about moderation, and how vitally important and relevant to the classic computer world their opinions about eBay & gun control are, with the associated escalation of insults and derision... Nevermind... Ken From kebabthesheep at yahoo.com Tue May 8 11:09:57 2001 From: kebabthesheep at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?kebabthesheep?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: Multi-Z80 system design Message-ID: <20010508160957.14146.qmail@web12304.mail.yahoo.com> Hi all, When going through my stash of older ICs, I identified about four complete Z80 chipsets, and well as many perhipheral devices. For some pervese idea I have decided it would be fun to get back into hardware and software co-design. I intend to construct a multi-z80 machine, based upon a plane backplane, identical cpu cards, and perhipheral cards. I will also design an RTOS for this or port a unix. I have most of the information I require, except for data on the Z80 DMA and CTC. The only files I can find on the web are a two page summary from Zilog, and a large and very broken datasheet from Farnell. Does anybody have any (digital) copies of the datasheets I could copy? I'll tease for now, until I have made a few more design decisions, and decided exactly how I intend to pull this stunt off. Details to follow - should be loads of fun :) Many thanks, Dave. ____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue May 8 11:29:36 2001 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: Falcon PLA Message-ID: <20010508.112936.-262299.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Does anybody know where I could find the programming image for the address decode PLA for the 11/21 FALCON SBC? I need tomake sure that the one I have is original; if not, I'll have to make a new one. ALso, anybody got a boot rom image for this? Thanks-- Jeff ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue May 8 11:21:51 2001 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: Dissed by DSSI Message-ID: <20010508.112936.-262299.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> I grabbed a couple of DSSI controllers thinking they were SCSI (silly me). Anyone have drives for these things smaller than a bar fridge? Anybody *need* one? Jeff ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From chomko at greenbelt.com Tue May 8 11:31:38 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: Serious Request For Moderation (On Topic) and IMSAIs........ References: <004501c0d71d$48ea1e20$030101ac@boll.casema.net> <001701c0d727$ac3ab980$88f8fea9@98box> <0b2301c0d72f$ea55cc20$0c01a8c0@michaelnadeau> Message-ID: <3AF81F6A.2747AA73@greenbelt.com> Jeff Hellige wrote: > >Did anyone else see the "new" Mark-8 kit sell on eBay recently? I think it > >went for $1,600. > > He's been selling the boards and components for a number of > months now. I've read his listings a few times and he never comes > right out and says that he has made the parts new using the original > drawings, just that they were made from them. I wouldn't be > suprised if the buyers actually believed they were getting vintage > parts vice the 'repro' parts that they are, regardless of how well > done. > An endless supply of "vintage" anything really doesn't make it vintage any longer. Eric > > Jeff > -- > Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From chomko at greenbelt.com Tue May 8 11:40:48 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: SS-50-based 6809 systems (was Re: How many transistors in the 6502...) References: <01May8.090302edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <3AF82190.F5765914@greenbelt.com> Jeff Hellige wrote: > On Tuesday, May 8, 2001, at 08:11 AM, John Honniball wrote: > > Wasn't there an SWTPC machine with a 6809 in it? > > Eric would know more about the SWTPC machines than I, but there > were at least 3 different models with the 6809: 69/A, 69/K, and the > S/09. There may even possibly be more, as I have what appears to be a > S/09 but the model on the chasis shows S/00. > SWTPC had several varieties as Jeff pointed out. Smoke Signal Broadcasting made a 6809 system based upon the "Chieftain" line. Helix, Gimix, not sure about Midwest Science (MSI). Speaking of MSI, does anyone know or own the 6800 version of that system? Eric > > Jeff From truthanl at oclc.org Tue May 8 11:44:49 2001 From: truthanl at oclc.org (Truthan,Larry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: D-116 Mini Message-ID: <5D2A5FE013C66B44901B5A45A5304DDA0172D324@oa2-server.oa.oclc.org> Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 08:27:53 -0400 From: Eric Chomko Subject: D-116 Digital Computer Controls - minicomputer Has anyone ever heard of such a thing. I dug out a manual and a book on the system, and remember working on one years ago. The books are dated 1972-3. The company is out of New Jersey. Anyone one know anything about the D-116 system or about the fate of the company: DCC? Eric Yes Eric, I have a D-116 in my Garage!. It has a a full flank of front panel switches, a tty port and a paper tape machine Mounted in a 5 foot vertical Bud Cabinet. I have a shoebox full of tapes including some Diagnostics. I also have an IBM PC with a 20MB filecard which was used instead of the paper tape as an excerciser/ development program loader. OCLC the online Computer Library Center, where I work, used these as front end processors, to a bank of Tandem Computers. They were the units that ran the polling protocol similar to IBM Bi - Sync, I would e interested in your literature. Could you Scan the Manual or give me some description of it? Sincerely Larry Truthan truthanl@oclc.org. I am a "digest subscriber" on classiccmp.org, Please respond to my Email for most direct correspondence. From dittman at dittman.net Tue May 8 11:59:27 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: Dissed by DSSI In-Reply-To: <20010508.112936.-262299.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> from "Jeffrey l Kaneko" at May 08, 2001 11:21:51 AM Message-ID: <200105081659.f48GxRg03600@narnia.int.dittman.net> > I grabbed a couple of DSSI controllers thinking > they were SCSI (silly me). Anyone have drives > for these things smaller than a bar fridge? > > Anybody *need* one? I could use one, if it is QBUS. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From fernande at internet1.net Tue May 8 12:02:54 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: Dissed by DSSI References: <20010508.112936.-262299.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <3AF826BE.D9531153@internet1.net> My DSSI drives are the same size as SCSI drives. I have two 3.5" and 1 5.25" DSSI drives in my Microvax 3400. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > > I grabbed a couple of DSSI controllers thinking > they were SCSI (silly me). Anyone have drives > for these things smaller than a bar fridge? > > Anybody *need* one? > > Jeff From fernande at internet1.net Tue May 8 12:07:53 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: Vintage References: <004501c0d71d$48ea1e20$030101ac@boll.casema.net> <001701c0d727$ac3ab980$88f8fea9@98box> <0b2301c0d72f$ea55cc20$0c01a8c0@michaelnadeau> <3AF81F6A.2747AA73@greenbelt.com> Message-ID: <3AF827E9.553485E4@internet1.net> Sure it does, If it's old it's old! Maybe you meant rare? There is an endless supply of "rare" items on eBay. I even saw a "rare" Apple //e one day, that looked exactly all the non-rare Apple //e's that I have ever seen :-) Chad Fernandez Mihicgan, USA Eric Chomko wrote: > An endless supply of "vintage" anything really doesn't make it vintage > any longer. > > Eric > > > > > Jeff > > -- > > Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: > > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From stanb at dial.pipex.com Tue May 8 01:51:00 2001 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 07 May 2001 23:18:25 BST." Message-ID: <200105080651.HAA07892@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) said: > > > > It sounds to me like it would be quite a non-standard format, > > as I don't believe DOS 2.11 supports the 1.44meg format. Anyone > > else? > > Yes, that bothered me as well.... > > Also, most machines that run MS-DOS 2.11 are XTs. Which may well not > support high density drives at all (yes, I know there are high density > controllers for XT machines, but they're not that common). According to an old Peter Norton book, Dos 2.1 only supported 320(!) and 360K disks. Support for 720 and 1200K came with DOS3. XTs had to use a separate device driver for the higher densities. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 8 12:24:11 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: Computers as weapons In-Reply-To: References: <01May8.090444edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010508120717.01e5c7a0@pc> At 02:03 PM 5/8/01 +0100, John Honniball wrote: >Harvard Graphics was one of our biggest competitors! There >were a few companies doing business graphics, > >But wasn't there a package called "The Dog And Pony Show"? I was consulting at SPC circa 1991 on their Harvard series, mostly on Harvard Draw and all related import/export filters, and a bit on Harvard Graphics. Around that time, their inept marketing teams made advertisements and mouse pads saying something to the effect of "Not your average dog and pony show" featuring a multicolored dog and horse. The problem is, there's also the perhaps urban-legend meaning of "dog and pony show" based on Tijuana or circus sideshows involving sex acts between humans and these animals. - John From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 8 12:36:36 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: Dissed by DSSI In-Reply-To: Dissed by DSSI (Jeffrey l Kaneko) References: <20010508.112936.-262299.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <15096.11940.465273.127919@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 8, Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > I grabbed a couple of DSSI controllers thinking > they were SCSI (silly me). Anyone have drives > for these things smaller than a bar fridge? I think you're confusing DSSI with SDI. I've never seen a DSSI drive larger than 5.25" FH. -Dave McGuire From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 8 12:37:30 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated floppy disk In-Reply-To: <000201c0d702$a332dd60$8db5f7a5@guntis> from "Guntis Sprenne" at May 7, 1 09:45:56 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 802 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010508/84cfeb04/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 8 12:57:48 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: RX50 Replacement In-Reply-To: <3AF7818E.F353971@internet1.net> from "Chad Fernandez" at May 8, 1 01:18:06 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 295 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010508/ce523d4e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 8 13:00:38 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: Brand new, old stock IBM keyboards In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at May 8, 1 01:26:39 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 562 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010508/241c0e35/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 8 13:08:41 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? In-Reply-To: from "John Honniball" at May 8, 1 01:11:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 759 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010508/9ed1e5a8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 8 13:13:14 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: Multi-Z80 system design In-Reply-To: <20010508160957.14146.qmail@web12304.mail.yahoo.com> from "=?iso-8859-1?q?kebabthesheep?=" at May 8, 1 05:09:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 545 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010508/e4a293c6/attachment.ksh From ahm at spies.com Tue May 8 13:23:09 2001 From: ahm at spies.com (Andreas Meyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: parts needed In-Reply-To: ; from Mike Ford on Tue, May 08, 2001 at 12:36:10AM -0700 References: <200105072052.NAA14590@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20010508142309.L8319@spies.com> I'm looking for the following items. Please contact me directly. one PostScript Cartridge #33439Q (for an HP IIIp) one or more ISA riser cards Thanks, Andy From edick at idcomm.com Tue May 8 13:42:34 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: parts needed References: <200105072052.NAA14590@shell1.aracnet.com> <20010508142309.L8319@spies.com> Message-ID: <002b01c0d7ef$5053d200$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> If you mean an ISA extender board, i.e. what you'd use to move a circuit under test up to where you can get at it, VECTOR still sells what's probably as good a board as you could want. They're available at DigiKey, among other places. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andreas Meyer" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 12:23 PM Subject: parts needed > I'm looking for the following items. > Please contact me directly. > > one PostScript Cartridge #33439Q (for an HP IIIp) > one or more ISA riser cards > > Thanks, > Andy > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 8 13:59:02 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated In-Reply-To: <200105080651.HAA07892@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 May 2001, Stan Barr wrote: > According to an old Peter Norton book, Dos 2.1 only supported 320(!) > and 360K disks. There are a lot of people on this list who know a lot about disk formats. Quoting Norton about disk formats is like quoting billg about Apple computers. [BTW, on the Computer Bowl, nither billg nor anyone else on his team knew where the write protect notch is on an 8" diskette!] [BTW, Peter Norton has written a bunch of stuff where he refers to DOS interrrupt vectors by their decimal numbers ("Int 33")] PC-DOS 2.10 (NOTE there are TWO digits after the period) supported 160K, 180K, 320K, and 360K. Even Peter's own fUtilities supported the SS (160K and 180K) formats. > Support for 720 and 1200K came with DOS3. Support for 720K came with MOST versions of MS-DOS 2.11, but not until 3.20 for PC-DOS. There doesn't exist a PC-DOS 2.11, only MS-DOS. Support for 1200K (aka "1.2M") came with 3.0 Support for "1.4M" came with 3.30 > XTs had to use a separate device driver for the higher densities. It takes different HARDWARE, NOT JUST DRIVER, to do higher density, such as 1.2M or 1.4M formats. Fortunately, 720K is NOT a higher density. The physical format on each track is the same as 360K; but there are 80 cylinders instead of 40, and some software parameters are different for the directory. With added software, ANY version of DOS can do 720K. But with certain OEM's MS-DOS 2.11 and with PC-DOS 3.20, XTs are quite happy with 720K. Actually, it is EASIER to use "other" formats with an XT than an AT, since an XT doesn't store CMOS info about drive types and/or CARE what kind of drives are connected. To use 720K and PC-DOS 3.20 with an XT with an IBM BIOS required using DRIVER.SYS. To use 720K and PC-DOS 3.20 with a non-IBM BIOS could be done with DRIVPARM (sets parameters without loading a device driver), which was present on both MS-DOS and PC-DOS, but undocumented in PC-DOS. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From ahm at spies.com Tue May 8 14:12:58 2001 From: ahm at spies.com (Andreas Meyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: parts needed In-Reply-To: <002b01c0d7ef$5053d200$9cc762d8@idcomm.com>; from Richard Erlacher on Tue, May 08, 2001 at 12:42:34PM -0600 References: <200105072052.NAA14590@shell1.aracnet.com> <20010508142309.L8319@spies.com> <002b01c0d7ef$5053d200$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <20010508151258.M8319@spies.com> Richard Erlacher writes: > If you mean an ISA extender board, Actually, I'm looking for the kind that will allow me to mount an ISA card parallel to the motherboard. I've seen them in desktop systems and I expect that people just throw them away. Thanks, Andy From peter at joules0.demon.co.uk Tue May 8 14:15:37 2001 From: peter at joules0.demon.co.uk (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 7 May 2001, Don Maslin wrote: > > > On 8 May 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > > > Bryan Pope skrev: > > > > >New York! ewwww.... I am from Ingersoll, a little town (Pop. 9500) > > > > Ingersoll... That name sounds familiar. Isn't that the name of some late 70s > > video game console? > > > Not sure about that, but it was half the name of an outfit that built > air compressors :) > - don > They made watches in the 60s didn't they? -- Regards Pete From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 8 14:17:56 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: Brand new, old stock IBM keyboards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 May 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > These are the heavy original keyboards, PN 1503206. The badge at the top > > left says IBM Personal Computer, below it is a double column of 10 function > That's the PC and PC/XT keybaord AFAIK. It won't work on a PC/AT. The > connector has the same pinouts (well, the same signal names), but the > data protocol is rather different. BTW, for the XT, IBM changed that badge by adding the letters XT. Therefore, these would be the "RARE" PC ones. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 8 14:22:30 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: "Extra ultra density"? (was: RX50 Replacement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 May 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > What is DSQD? Double Sided Quad Density?? > Yes. It generally means (on 5.25" disks) MFM recording at 96tpi (so 80 > cylinders). > > Question : What would you call single density recording (FM) at 96 tpi on > such a disk? Givem that 'double density' normally means MFM recording at > 48 tpi Intertec (Superbrain) called their format "QUAD density" when they went to double sided on their MFM 48 tpi. So, then when they came out with a 2 sided MFM 96 tpi format (720K), since they had used up the name QUAD, they called it "SUPER density", which they abbreviated "SD"! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 8 15:02:15 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: Brand new, old stock IBM keyboards In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at May 8, 1 12:17:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 650 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010508/9498f488/attachment.ksh From RCini at congressfinancial.com Tue May 8 15:09:04 2001 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: A good shell for ProDOS Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E58798E7@MAIL10> Hello, all: I've got my Diamond TrackStar working well now and have worked out most of the kinks. So, I'm playing around with the supported ProDOS volumes (two 10mb volumes). I'm running ProDOS 1.1.1. I still have to copy either 1.9 or 2.0.3 to the volume from various floppies that I have. Anyway, what's a good shell for ProDOS? I have Sneeze running, but there seems to be a problem with it recognizing the volume (maybe it's an issue with running 1.1.1), so I see no volumes on the screen. Rich From donm at cts.com Tue May 8 15:12:42 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 May 2001, Peter Joules wrote: > On Mon, 7 May 2001, Don Maslin wrote: > > > > > > > On 8 May 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > > > > > Bryan Pope skrev: > > > > > > >New York! ewwww.... I am from Ingersoll, a little town (Pop. 9500) > > > > > > Ingersoll... That name sounds familiar. Isn't that the name of some late 70s > > > video game console? > > > > > > Not sure about that, but it was half the name of an outfit that built > > air compressors :) > > - don > > > They made watches in the 60s didn't they? I think that was Ingersol, Pete. - don > -- > Regards > Pete > > From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue May 8 15:14:20 2001 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: parts needed In-Reply-To: <20010508151258.M8319@spies.com> Message-ID: <20010508201420.43169.qmail@web9503.mail.yahoo.com> --- Andreas Meyer wrote: > Richard Erlacher writes: > > If you mean an ISA extender board, > > Actually, I'm looking for the kind that will allow me to mount an ISA card > parallel to the motherboard. I've seen them in desktop systems and > I expect that people just throw them away. Frequently called a "riser board". Some have an ISA connector on the bottom, some are proprietary. -ethan ===== Visit "The Seventh Continent" http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 8 15:11:22 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:10 2005 Subject: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at May 8, 1 11:59:02 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 648 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010508/79939d0e/attachment.ksh From allain at panix.com Tue May 8 15:15:35 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:11 2005 Subject: parts needed References: <200105072052.NAA14590@shell1.aracnet.com> <20010508142309.L8319@spies.com> <002b01c0d7ef$5053d200$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <20010508151258.M8319@spies.com> Message-ID: <069701c0d7fc$29c54b20$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Actually, I'm looking for the kind that will allow me to mount an ISA card > parallel to the motherboard. I got one or two from short desktop systems that I scapped a year ago. problem: the extension is minimal, it really just folds the 90deg. plus: there are two or three sockets instead of one. It may be proprietary since I fear (but don't know) that one slot cannot be m-plexed in std isa. Seemed like straight through connections. J-A From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue May 8 15:37:18 2001 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:11 2005 Subject: Dissed by DSSI Message-ID: <20010508.153718.-262299.4.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Tue, 8 May 2001 13:36:36 -0400 (EDT) Dave McGuire writes: > On May 8, Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > > I grabbed a couple of DSSI controllers thinking > > they were SCSI (silly me). Anyone have drives > > for these things smaller than a bar fridge? > > I think you're confusing DSSI with SDI. I've never seen a DSSI > drive larger than 5.25" FH. Ah yes, you are correct. The thing that struck me about SDI was the *square* coaxial wiring they used. Wierd. I've seen alot of SDI's (mostly in little pieces), but never a DSSI (I just made some wild assumptions about DEC hardware :^). Jeff ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue May 8 15:31:23 2001 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:11 2005 Subject: "Extra ultra density"? (was: RX50 Replacement Message-ID: <20010508.153718.-262299.3.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Tue, 8 May 2001 12:22:30 -0700 (PDT) "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" writes: > Intertec (Superbrain) called their format "QUAD density" when they > went to double sided on their MFM 48 tpi. > So, then when they came out with a 2 sided MFM 96 tpi format (720K), > since they had used up the name QUAD, they called it "SUPER density", > which they abbreviated "SD"! Smoke Signal Broadcasting used to refer to this as 'Octo-density'. Jeff > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From lgwalker at look.ca Tue May 8 15:39:23 2001 From: lgwalker at look.ca (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:11 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E58798D5@MAIL10> Message-ID: <3AF8213B.1667.9AE08D4@localhost> You'd be better off picking up an old monitor with an analogue<>digital switch. They are fairly easy to come by in Thrifts. I have 3 or 4 of them myself that I picked up for nearly nothing. It would cost you more in parts not to mention labor. Larry > Hello, all: > > I have an old CGA monitor that's working now, but I can envision it > someday soon not working. So, I was wondering if anyone has built a > converter so that they can use a standard VGA monitor (analog) on a CGA > output (TTL)? > > Rich > Reply to: lgwalker@look.ca From chomko at greenbelt.com Tue May 8 15:40:51 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:11 2005 Subject: Vintage References: <004501c0d71d$48ea1e20$030101ac@boll.casema.net> <001701c0d727$ac3ab980$88f8fea9@98box> <0b2301c0d72f$ea55cc20$0c01a8c0@michaelnadeau> <3AF81F6A.2747AA73@greenbelt.com> <3AF827E9.553485E4@internet1.net> Message-ID: <3AF859D3.6E89E7C6@greenbelt.com> Chad Fernandez wrote: > Sure it does, If it's old it's old! Maybe you meant rare? There is an > endless supply of "rare" items on eBay. I even saw a "rare" Apple //e > one day, that looked exactly all the non-rare Apple //e's that I have > ever seen :-) > Ah, but did it fetch a rare price or a common price? Eric > > Chad Fernandez > Mihicgan, USA > > Eric Chomko wrote: > > An endless supply of "vintage" anything really doesn't make it vintage > > any longer. > > > > Eric > > > > > > > > Jeff > > > -- > > > Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: > > > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > > > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhfine at idirect.com Tue May 8 15:52:28 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:11 2005 Subject: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated References: Message-ID: <3AF85C8C.2A9050F5@idirect.com> >Tony Duell wrote: > > [BTW, on the Computer Bowl, nither billg nor anyone else on his team knew > > where the write protect notch is on an 8" diskette!] > Did they know that it's 'inverted' wrt the 5.25" notch -- that is to say > on an 8" disk you cover the notch to enable writing to the disk. That > makes a lot more sense IMHO -- if the tab falls off, the disk is left in > a 'safe' state (write-protected). Jerome Fine replies: When I used the DEC RX02 compatible drives, we sometimes had to look around for that tab so we could write on the media. A bit inconvenient, but as you say, a good fail-safe design. What was even more annoying was the different location of the sensor holes for a double sided (RX02 => RX03) floppy. Eventually, I just added a reversing (DPDT) switch on the sensors of a DSD 880/30 so I could use a SSDD 8" floppy as DSDD. > Onm the other hand, with the 5.25" disk you can have a permanently > write-protected disk (no notch at all), as was used for some software > distribution kits. You can't do that with the 8" disk -- it's always > possible to stick something over the notch. Not necessarily true. At one point, I rigged an RX50 drive to think that the "notch" was still there and was then able to write on the media. Of course, I still had to format the media since originally it was not RX50 compatible. At one point, I used an Emulex DM01 with a floppy drive that had a light sensor to detect the "notch". So for the moment, I unbolted the sensor and used a flashlight to simulate the "notch" being there. So don't assume that those "permanently write-protected" floppies can't have other information written on them - a bit inconvenient, but not that much of a problem. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue May 8 15:57:05 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:11 2005 Subject: PCjr keyboards In-Reply-To: <200105081349.GAA10416@stockholm.ptloma.edu> References: <200105081349.GAA10416@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: >The PCjr I have is still infrared, but at least it has the "proper" keyboard >and not the Chiclet one. Both of the original PCjr infrared keyboards also had connectors for the cable. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue May 8 15:25:12 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:11 2005 Subject: Mac Portable (Was Re: Seriously OT: Firearms) In-Reply-To: Mike Ford "Re: Mac Portable (Was Re: Seriously OT: Firearms)" (May 8, 0:25) References: Mike Ford "Re: Mac Portable (Was Re: Seriously OT: Firearms)" (May 7 0:57) Message-ID: <10105082125.ZM9697@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 8, 0:25, Mike Ford wrote: > >Mike, are these the same batteries used in the Mac Plus? I can't seem to > >find any equivalent over here. > > Nope, the plus uses something different a PX-21 4.5v alkline (longer than > a AA as I remember) Yes, longer and fatter. > The Battery Company in the UK I am told carries them, but it appears to be > used in some cameras as well, so maybe some larger camera shops would also > have them. Thanks! I'll give that a try. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue May 8 16:02:11 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:11 2005 Subject: Serious Request For Moderation (On Topic) and IMSAIs........ In-Reply-To: <3AF81F6A.2747AA73@greenbelt.com> References: <004501c0d71d$48ea1e20$030101ac@boll.casema.net> <001701c0d727$ac3ab980$88f8fea9@98box> <0b2301c0d72f$ea55cc20$0c01a8c0@michaelnadeau> <3AF81F6A.2747AA73@greenbelt.com> Message-ID: >An endless supply of "vintage" anything really doesn't make it vintage >any longer. My thoughts on that particular item is that he should've been up front about it's origin instead of hiding behind vagueness. Reproduction parts have their place but they should be clearly identified as such when buying/selling them. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue May 8 16:03:13 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:11 2005 Subject: WTB/T: hp-21 battery pack anyone? Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010508140130.02943eb0@208.226.86.129> Well since it appears I'll be holding on to this calculator, and I've verified that it does indeed work if I kludge up a battery pack. Does anyone have a spare HP battery pack I could buy/trade for? It doesn't particularly matter if the pack is dead, we can rebuild it :-) --Chuck From edick at idcomm.com Tue May 8 16:04:37 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:11 2005 Subject: parts needed References: <200105072052.NAA14590@shell1.aracnet.com> <20010508142309.L8319@spies.com> <002b01c0d7ef$5053d200$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <20010508151258.M8319@spies.com> Message-ID: <006b01c0d802$7db63040$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've never been inclined to throw such things away. They normally come with motherboards that live in cabinets that accomodate expansion boards that mount, as you said, parallel to the motherboard. I've never owned a motherboard that required one that didn't come in a box dedicated to such applications. Oddly enough, I do believe I've got one or two in a drawer somewhere. If it's two, perhaps you can let me know how many slots you need. It seems to me that I have one on which the boards protrude in both directions, the riser having connectors on both sides. The other has the PCB sockets on only one side. These were just odd enough that I held onto them. I'd say you might find that nearly any PS/1 that you see at the local thrift store will have one inside. That may cost less than postage on one. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andreas Meyer" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 1:12 PM Subject: Re: parts needed > Richard Erlacher writes: > > If you mean an ISA extender board, > > Actually, I'm looking for the kind that will allow me to mount an ISA card > parallel to the motherboard. I've seen them in desktop systems and > I expect that people just throw them away. > > Thanks, > Andy > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue May 8 16:22:08 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:11 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On Topic) and IMSAIs........ In-Reply-To: References: <3AF81F6A.2747AA73@greenbelt.com> <004501c0d71d$48ea1e20$030101ac@boll.casema.net> <001701c0d727$ac3ab980$88f8fea9@98box> <0b2301c0d72f$ea55cc20$0c01a8c0@michaelnadeau> <3AF81F6A.2747AA73@greenbelt.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010508141649.026db008@208.226.86.10> Reproductions should be clearly labelled as such. The guy selling the Mark-8 clone attempts to make the case that if you make the PCBs by hand (as you would have in 1974), and you buy parts that were available to buy back in 1974 (w/ 1974 date codes) and you assemble it according to the directions in the article, then building it "today" is just as legit as if it has been built in 1974. I can see the argument and its one used on the Concourse (classic car) circuit a lot. If the car has all original parts (even if they came from 6 different cars) then its an "original" as opposed to "it came out of the factory like this." The Mark-8 is a particularly unique example in that there was no 'factory.' I'm on the Concourse side in VAX land, if it was a DEC supported configuration then I consider it "classic" even if the system didn't arrive that way. Sometimes I've backed out things DEC _didn't_ support but the customer did. --Chuck At 05:02 PM 5/8/2001 -0400, Jeff wrote: >>An endless supply of "vintage" anything really doesn't make it vintage >>any longer. > > My thoughts on that particular item is that he should've been up > front about it's origin instead of hiding behind vagueness. Reproduction > parts have their place but they should be clearly identified as such when > buying/selling them. From rhblake at bigfoot.com Tue May 8 16:13:16 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:11 2005 Subject: Vintage In-Reply-To: <3AF827E9.553485E4@internet1.net> Message-ID: Much like the term "collectable" - what wide open term. Hell anything is collectable since you can collect it, even trash. The local dump has all sorts of "collectables". Rare is so overused - just like the "rare" PS/2 model 80 I saw on ebay last year - so rare that I had 8 of them on auction at one time. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Chad Fernandez > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 12:08 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Vintage > > > Sure it does, If it's old it's old! Maybe you meant rare? There is an > endless supply of "rare" items on eBay. I even saw a "rare" Apple //e > one day, that looked exactly all the non-rare Apple //e's that I have > ever seen :-) > > Chad Fernandez > Mihicgan, USA > > Eric Chomko wrote: > > An endless supply of "vintage" anything really doesn't make it vintage > > any longer. > > > > Eric > > > > > > > > Jeff > > > -- > > > Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: > > > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > > > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From edick at idcomm.com Tue May 8 16:44:05 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:11 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog References: Message-ID: <008101c0d808$026cda00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I have never had an particular interest in EGA or CGA monitors, but (1) every IBM CGA (which is the name of the adapter card) has a composite output, and every CGA monitor I've seen has been a severely lobotomized (as Tony Duell described) TV set. Back in the '70's, I modified a small portable TV set to make a small monitor I could package together with a physically small microcomputer system in a rack-width desktop box about 6" tall. That was the only time I personally did that sort of thing, but everyone I knew to be involved in home computing at the time was able to offer plenty of useful advice on how best to effect this mod, suggesting that it was widely practiced. I have attached many dozens of "EGA" monitors to VGA adapters, and have yet to need to modify the monitor in any way not associated with its sweep rates. This suggests to me that they happily accept the 1V or so analog signal amplitude that the VGA adapter requires. Of course, I normally used the commercially available hardware adapters, consisting of two connectors and cabling ranging in legth between 7' and 1.25", depending on whether it was a cable or just an adapter. I'd suggest that if you have something that works differently and it seems that your schematic does, you may have to proceed differently than I did, but the fact that such a large percentage (100%) of the EGA monitors I've dealt with had no difficulty with the VGA video signals, suggests you'll have no trouble finding EGA monitors that deal with VGA output just fine. I did find some that required a capacitor be changed in order to make the sweep circuit operate at the appropriate rate. At least one case, it required, in fact (this was a NEC Multisync-1) that the vertical hold signal be tweaked (from the knob in the top of the cabinet) when switching from text mode to 1024x768 graphics (Windows) mode. The fact that NEC provided an adapter to go between its monitor and the typical VGA card suggests that this is not an unusual application for their products. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 3:49 PM Subject: Re: Converting TTL monitor to Analog > >The video input stage of the EGA monitor I've just turned up schematics > >for has the following stages. > > > >Incoming video signals (6 wires, MSB and LSB for each colour) are > >terminated by resistor networks and fed to the inputs of a 74LS244 > >(enables always asserted). The outputs of that TTL buffer go to a 28L42 > >PROM, programmed to produce the correct colour drives for each of the 64 > >input 'colours' in EGA mode and the 16 input 'colours' in CGA mode. 6 > >outputs of that PROM (2 per colour, R, G, B) are buffered by 74LS05 O/C > >inverters, then go to a transitor network that produces the CRT drive signal. > > > >To me, the inputs to that circuit are most certainly TTL level _digital_ > >signals. > > EGA, like CGA, was a digital standard, which is why many of > the early multisync-style monitors have both analog and digital > inputs. VGA was the first of the IBM PC standards to use an analog > video signal. Unfortunately for Amiga owners, VGA syncs at twice the > NTSC rate. > > Jeff > -- > Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 8 16:43:09 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:11 2005 Subject: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated In-Reply-To: <3AF85C8C.2A9050F5@idirect.com> from "Jerome Fine" at May 8, 1 04:52:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1852 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010508/e39f4936/attachment.ksh From manney at hmcltd.net Tue May 8 19:50:45 2001 From: manney at hmcltd.net (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:11 2005 Subject: Pram battery References: Message-ID: <008901c0d822$159444a0$73e3cfd8@pii500> What in tunket is a pram battery? My pram was manually operated... fully Y2K compliant, too! > My first suspect is often the pram battery From manney at hmcltd.net Tue May 8 20:05:28 2001 From: manney at hmcltd.net (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:11 2005 Subject: Need help with retrieving data from a DOS 2.11 formated References: Message-ID: <014c01c0d824$2498f480$73e3cfd8@pii500> You could boot up on a later version of DOS on a 720K floppy... If all else fails, why not just stick in a 360K drive, write the files on it, then put the drive in the NT machine (as "B:"?). I'm sure there are plenty around. P Manney From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue May 8 17:23:34 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:11 2005 Subject: parts needed In-Reply-To: <069701c0d7fc$29c54b20$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <200105072052.NAA14590@shell1.aracnet.com> <20010508142309.L8319@spies.com> <002b01c0d7ef$5053d200$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <20010508151258.M8319@spies.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010508152224.03302370@mail.zipcon.net> Isa slots don't care how many devices are plugged into them. if you look at the ISA chain on your standard motherboard, the slots are all chained together anyways :) the riser card just does vertically what the slots on the mainboard are already doing horizontally At 04:15 PM 5/8/01 -0400, you wrote: > > Actually, I'm looking for the kind that will allow me to mount an ISA card > > parallel to the motherboard. > >I got one or two from short desktop systems that I scapped a year ago. >problem: the extension is minimal, it really just folds the 90deg. >plus: there are two or three sockets instead of one. >It may be proprietary since I fear (but don't know) that one slot cannot >be m-plexed in std isa. Seemed like straight through connections. > >J-A From fmc at reanimators.org Tue May 8 17:00:22 2001 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:11 2005 Subject: Vintage In-Reply-To: "Russ Blakeman"'s message of "Tue, 8 May 2001 16:13:16 -0500" References: Message-ID: <200105082200.f48M0MC10534@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Russ Blakeman" wrote: > Much like the term "collectable" - what wide open term. Hell anything is > collectable since you can collect it, even trash. The local dump has all _Everything In Entire World Now Collectible_ http://www.theonion.com/onion3710/everything_collectible.html "According to a report issued Monday by the North American Collector's Association, every single thing currently being manufactured is officially categorized as a collectible." -Frank McConnell From edick at idcomm.com Tue May 8 17:24:26 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:11 2005 Subject: WTB/T: hp-21 battery pack anyone? References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010508140130.02943eb0@208.226.86.129> Message-ID: <00a201c0d80d$a4152ec0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I have an HP-21 and a 25C. For over 20 years, I've used a slightly modified battery pack, modified only in that the individual NiCd's are removable and easily replaced. This was done in about 15 seconds with an Exacto knife. The batteries are easily exchanged if they go south, but I often use alkaline batteries if I really need to, with no ill effects yet. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck McManis" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 3:03 PM Subject: WTB/T: hp-21 battery pack anyone? > Well since it appears I'll be holding on to this calculator, and I've > verified that it does indeed work if I kludge up a battery pack. Does > anyone have a spare HP battery pack I could buy/trade for? It doesn't > particularly matter if the pack is dead, we can rebuild it :-) > > --Chuck > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue May 8 17:26:27 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:11 2005 Subject: Vintage References: Message-ID: <00ac01c0d80d$ee4d6d40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Sheesh! There oughtta be a law ... Haven't you heard of PS/2 pollution? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russ Blakeman" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 3:13 PM Subject: RE: Vintage > Much like the term "collectable" - what wide open term. Hell anything is > collectable since you can collect it, even trash. The local dump has all > sorts of "collectables". Rare is so overused - just like the "rare" PS/2 > model 80 I saw on ebay last year - so rare that I had 8 of them on auction > at one time. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Chad Fernandez > > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 12:08 PM > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Vintage > > > > > > Sure it does, If it's old it's old! Maybe you meant rare? There is an > > endless supply of "rare" items on eBay. I even saw a "rare" Apple //e > > one day, that looked exactly all the non-rare Apple //e's that I have > > ever seen :-) > > > > Chad Fernandez > > Mihicgan, USA > > > > Eric Chomko wrote: > > > An endless supply of "vintage" anything really doesn't make it vintage > > > any longer. > > > > > > Eric > > > > > > > > > > > Jeff > > > > -- > > > > Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: > > > > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > > > > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 8 17:29:43 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:11 2005 Subject: No-Notch disks (was: Need help with DOS 2.11 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 May 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > Not necessarily true. At one point, I rigged an RX50 drive to think that the > > "notch" was still there and was then able to write on the media. Of course, > Well, obviously there is a way to write to the disk using a modified > drive. Otherwise, those software distribution kits would be blank.... The Shugart 455 (aka Matsushita, aka ...) has a jumper that lets you reverse the write-protect protocol! You can jumper it to enable on no-notch, and protect on notch (as God intended?) Many other drives, such as Tandon TM100 can simply be jumpered to permanently enable or permanently protect. I always distributed software on 5.25" no-notch disks. I often wondered if it was worth the extra expense due to the difficulty finding good deals on them. Then, one day, ... Some guy demanded his money back and claimed that there was a virus (Stoned) on the disk! I was VERY concerned, but managed to get back the copies immediately before and immediately after that serial number from that production. They were OK. When the guy sent the disk back, I found that he had punched a notch, written to the disk, and then put a tab on! > > So don't assume that those "permanently write-protected" floppies can't > > have other information written on them - a bit inconvenient, but not > > that much of a problem. I'm glad that that customer wasn't hardware competent enough to figure out how. Why can't people who want to steal a copy do so discretely? Why must they destroy the merchandise and render it un-re-sellable? I had another customer who wanted a refund "because the program had been destroyed in shipping". But it turned out that the disk had been removed, presumably copied, and then put back in (but BACKWARDS from the way we pack the disks!) BEFORE the package was folded and smashed. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 8 17:35:27 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:11 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: <008101c0d808$026cda00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at May 8, 1 03:44:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3213 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010508/e1351770/attachment.ksh From terryc at woa.com.au Tue May 8 17:41:16 2001 From: terryc at woa.com.au (Terry Collins) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:11 2005 Subject: Multi-Z80 system design References: <20010508160957.14146.qmail@web12304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3AF8760C.948F88BF@woa.com.au> kebabthesheep wrote: > > Hi all, > When going through my stash of older ICs, I identified about four complete Z80 chipsets, and ...snip..... > or port a unix. I have most of the information I require, except for data on the Z80 DMA and > CTC. The only files I can find on the web are a two page summary from Zilog, and a large and Are Z80 CTC chips of any use these days? If so what for? I have quite a few (put my hand up at the wrong time at an auction mnay years ago) and they have somehow survived the cleanouts until now. -- Terry Collins {:-)}}} Ph(02) 4627 2186 Fax(02) 4628 7861 email: terryc@woa.com.au www: http://www.woa.com.au WOA Computer Services "People without trees are like fish without clean water" From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue May 8 17:47:41 2001 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:11 2005 Subject: Dissed by DSSI Message-ID: <20010508.174742.-262299.5.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> To everyone who responded: The DSSI adapter has been spoken for. The other adapter was some brand-x thing that I haven't identified yet (I *thought* it was DSSI, but it definitely isnt . . .) Thanks guys! Jeff On Tue, 8 May 2001 11:59:27 -0500 (CDT) Eric Dittman writes: > > I grabbed a couple of DSSI controllers thinking > > they were SCSI (silly me). Anyone have drives > > for these things smaller than a bar fridge? > > > > Anybody *need* one? > > I could use one, if it is QBUS. > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 8 17:52:32 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:11 2005 Subject: Multi-Z80 system design In-Reply-To: Re: Multi-Z80 system design (Terry Collins) References: <20010508160957.14146.qmail@web12304.mail.yahoo.com> <3AF8760C.948F88BF@woa.com.au> Message-ID: <15096.30896.691462.634004@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 9, Terry Collins wrote: > Are Z80 CTC chips of any use these days? > If so what for? Sure...Z80s and their uspport chips are frighteningly popular in the embedded systems world. "Old" doesn't necessarily mean "useless". If you don't plan to use them for anything, I'd suggest distributing them here on the list or perhaps putting them up on eBay. -Dave McGuire From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 8 17:50:36 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:11 2005 Subject: WTB/T: hp-21 battery pack anyone? In-Reply-To: <00a201c0d80d$a4152ec0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at May 8, 1 04:24:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1896 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010508/611b7d40/attachment.ksh From pechter at bg-tc-ppp74.monmouth.com Tue May 8 18:05:34 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp74.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:11 2005 Subject: WTB/T: hp-21 battery pack anyone? In-Reply-To: <00a201c0d80d$a4152ec0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from Richard Erlacher at "May 8, 2001 04:24:26 pm" Message-ID: <200105082305.f48N5Y010826@bg-tc-ppp74.monmouth.com> > I have an HP-21 and a 25C. For over 20 years, I've used a slightly modified > battery pack, modified only in that the individual NiCd's are removable and > easily replaced. This was done in about 15 seconds with an Exacto knife. The > batteries are easily exchanged if they go south, but I often use alkaline > batteries if I really need to, with no ill effects yet. > > Dick I did the same thing with my sister's HP21 (which I used, gave back and she lost 8-() Boy I wish I still had that calculator. Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 8 17:59:53 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:11 2005 Subject: No-Notch disks (was: Need help with DOS 2.11 In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at May 8, 1 03:29:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3329 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010508/b5fff699/attachment.ksh From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue May 8 18:07:51 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:11 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On Topic) and IMSAIs........ In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010508141649.026db008@208.226.86.10> References: <3AF81F6A.2747AA73@greenbelt.com> <004501c0d71d$48ea1e20$030101ac@boll.casema.net> <001701c0d727$ac3ab980$88f8fea9@98box> <0b2301c0d72f$ea55cc20$0c01a8c0@michaelnadeau> <3AF81F6A.2747AA73@greenbelt.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20010508141649.026db008@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: >I can see the argument and its one used on the Concourse (classic >car) circuit a lot. If the car has all original parts (even if they >came from 6 different cars) then its an "original" as opposed to "it >came out of the factory like this." The Mark-8 is a particularly >unique example in that there was no 'factory.' I have nothing against restorations, though obviously most people would rather find an original in perfect condition. The thing is, as these systems age, just like with classic cars, the unrestored original in nice condition is going to become harder to find. Restorations are still a touchy subject in hobbies such as dolls or comic books though and in both hobbies a restored or otherwise non-original example should be plainly represented as such. I don't have a problem with the guy going to the trouble of making the Mark-8 board set and tracking down the various parts...my problem is with his representation. The parts he used may have been of the same type as used to build original Mark-8's but since none of the major assemblies actually came from an original Mark-8 his representation isn't legitimate. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue May 8 18:11:10 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:11 2005 Subject: Pram battery In-Reply-To: <008901c0d822$159444a0$73e3cfd8@pii500> References: <008901c0d822$159444a0$73e3cfd8@pii500> Message-ID: >What in tunket is a pram battery? My pram was manually operated... fully Y2K >compliant, too! > > > My first suspect is often the pram battery The closest analogy I can make concerning what a PRAM battery is would be that it's the Mac version of the PC's BIOS settings. The Mac keeps various setting data in a small RAM area and the battery retains the info. WIthout the info, the Mac generally won't even boot until the battery is replaced. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Tue May 8 18:15:42 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: I blew up my IIgs! Message-ID: <200105082315.QAA04520@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Yes, I really did. Are Apple IIgses that easy to kill? Normally I just keep a single 5.25" drive attached to it, but I needed a 3.5" drive as well today (I'll explain as part of a larger question). So I plugged the 3.5" into the computer, the 5.25" into the 3.5", turned the machine on, it made three loud pops and died. The power light does not come on now and there is no activity from the disk drives. I fortunately do have another IIgs in stock, and was able to swap power supplies so that it boots again (this second is a defective unit I use for spare items). I will say that I wish every power supply were as easy to replace as the IIgses -- it literally just snaps in and out. Now that I have shot an apparently unrepairable PS, or is it?, what did I do wrong so I don't destroy more hardware in the future? Can you really not mix drives? Remember, I'm a C64 freak and I have all kinds of disk drives connected up to my Commodore farm. :-P Now the larger question. This IIgs netboots ProDOS 16 from an SE/30 over AppleTalk, which works quite well. Soon I'll have the IIgs using the SE/30 as a gateway to the apartment network (and shortly thereafter the C128 will join it). I tried to netboot GS/OS on it -- I don't know what version (this is a ROM 03 1MB IIgs). It gives me the nice "Welcome to the IIGS" screen, an AppleShare CDEV? appears lower-left and then disappears, it chugs along some more, and then drops out and puts me back at the AFP client. It then refuses to boot GS/OS at all until I restart the machine. Is this a symptom of something specific? If I just wanted to check if the machine were capbale and properly configured for running GS/OS, how could I do that? And where can I find GS/OS disk images? I looked in ftp://ftp.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Software_Updates/English-North_American/Apple_II/Apple_IIGS_System_6.0.1/ but there doesn't appear to be anything in there(?). Disk Copy-format would be nice, something I can break apart on my Power Mac. Thanks for any suggestions, -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Proponents of other opinions will be merrily beaten to a bloody pulp. ------ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue May 8 18:10:45 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: WTB/T: hp-21 battery pack anyone? In-Reply-To: <00a201c0d80d$a4152ec0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010508140130.02943eb0@208.226.86.129> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010508190859.00a60d00@mailhost.intellistar.net> Chuck, I missed your original message but I saw Dick's reply. I have a stash of NOS HP 21 batteries. Send me your address and I'll send you one. joe At 04:24 PM 5/8/01 -0600, you wrote: >"Chuck McManis" From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Tue May 8 18:22:50 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "May 8, 1 11:35:27 pm" Message-ID: <200105082322.QAA13518@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > I believe there was a 9 pin analogue video standard that NEC used at one > time. It wasn't EGA, though. Yes, there was. stockholm's NEC monitor on its console is such a monitor. It's a regular SVGA monitor in every sense except for the 9-pin connector -- I have driven it up to 1024x768x256 without difficulty. Definitely not EGA. :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Actually, we can overcome gravity (just not the paperwork involved). ------- From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue May 8 18:21:49 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: Available: Amiga 1988 DevCon notes + Libraries & Devices RKM Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010508161847.019a8af8@208.226.86.129> For $25 (complete, includes postage in the US) you can own a large binder with the complete notes from the 1988 Amiga Developer's Conference. Plus if you act now :-) you get the 'blue' Libraries & Devices volume of the Rom Kernel manual (the most useful volume) Contact me off list if you want this rare combination of documentation. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 8 18:18:45 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Hellige" at May 8, 1 07:07:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2034 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010509/a43085eb/attachment.ksh From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Tue May 8 18:28:28 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: PCjr keyboards In-Reply-To: from Jeff Hellige at "May 8, 1 04:57:05 pm" Message-ID: <200105082328.QAA04598@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > >The PCjr I have is still infrared, but at least it has the "proper" keyboard > >and not the Chiclet one. > > Both of the original PCjr infrared keyboards also had > connectors for the cable. You mean that "phone cord"-ish thing on the edge? -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- The whippings shall continue until morale improves. ------------------------ From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue May 8 18:27:55 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: <008101c0d808$026cda00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <008101c0d808$026cda00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: >The fact that NEC provided an adapter to go between its monitor and >the typical >VGA card suggests that this is not an unusual application for their products. Most of the early NEC Multisync series (original, II, GS, plus others) allowed various digital and analog modes to be switch selectable. They would also sync low enough to be used on various pre-VGA video adapters. I believe that the original Multsync included the additional switches to specify the color depth as described in previous posts here, while later models did not. I don't recall my GS having them. An excellent monitor btw...paperwhite grayscale. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 8 18:25:09 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: I blew up my IIgs! In-Reply-To: <200105082315.QAA04520@stockholm.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at May 8, 1 04:15:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1661 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010509/3c5530e8/attachment.ksh From terryc at woa.com.au Tue May 8 18:32:01 2001 From: terryc at woa.com.au (Terry Collins) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog References: Message-ID: <3AF881F1.4CA6C48E@woa.com.au> Tony Duell wrote: ...snip... > > The fact that NEC provided an adapter to go between its monitor and the typical > > VGA card suggests that this is not an unusual application for their products. > > I believe there was a 9 pin analogue video standard that NEC used at one > time. It wasn't EGA, though. Tell me if I have this A -about as I only browsed the rest of this, but {:-) I have recently taken apart one of those NEC 9 to 15 pin adapters to give some basic details to someone who needed to build their own. Basically just a pin patching with a ganged signal moderator (resistors). The NEC 9 pin monitors that went onto it were all multisync. The adapter wasn't used onto the NEC video cards with the 9 pin outlet. The multisync II were 640x480 16 colours max (I believe - I have two floating around but only use for basic text screens). -- Terry Collins {:-)}}} Ph(02) 4627 2186 Fax(02) 4628 7861 email: terryc@woa.com.au www: http://www.woa.com.au WOA Computer Services "People without trees are like fish without clean water" From foo at siconic.com Tue May 8 17:49:42 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: A good shell for ProDOS In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E58798E7@MAIL10> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 May 2001, Cini, Richard wrote: > I've got my Diamond TrackStar working well now and have worked out > most of the kinks. So, I'm playing around with the supported ProDOS volumes > (two 10mb volumes). I'm running ProDOS 1.1.1. I still have to copy either > 1.9 or 2.0.3 to the volume from various floppies that I have. > > Anyway, what's a good shell for ProDOS? I have Sneeze running, but > there seems to be a problem with it recognizing the volume (maybe it's an > issue with running 1.1.1), so I see no volumes on the screen. If you can find a copy, Bird's Better Bye from Beagle Bros. is pretty good. It replaces the "BYE" code in ProDOS to present you with a menu of applications that you have to program in. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From claudew at videotron.ca Tue May 8 18:56:46 2001 From: claudew at videotron.ca (Claude.W) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: I blew up my IIgs! References: <200105082315.QAA04520@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <00ba01c0d81a$8a4b16a0$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> Hi A frequent failure I was told IIRC (?) is a 100K 2W resistor around the 120V input. The 2 I fixed had exactly that same problem but the "pop" might be something totaly different... Claude ----- Original Message ----- From: Cameron Kaiser To: Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 7:15 PM Subject: I blew up my IIgs! > Yes, I really did. Are Apple IIgses that easy to kill? Normally I just keep > a single 5.25" drive attached to it, but I needed a 3.5" drive as well > today (I'll explain as part of a larger question). So I plugged the 3.5" > into the computer, the 5.25" into the 3.5", turned the machine on, it made > three loud pops and died. The power light does not come on now and there > is no activity from the disk drives. > > I fortunately do have another IIgs in stock, and was able to swap power > supplies so that it boots again (this second is a defective unit I use for > spare items). I will say that I wish every power supply were as easy > to replace as the IIgses -- it literally just snaps in and out. > > Now that I have shot an apparently unrepairable PS, or is it?, what did I > do wrong so I don't destroy more hardware in the future? Can you really > not mix drives? Remember, I'm a C64 freak and I have all kinds of disk > drives connected up to my Commodore farm. :-P > > Now the larger question. > > This IIgs netboots ProDOS 16 from an SE/30 over AppleTalk, which works > quite well. Soon I'll have the IIgs using the SE/30 as a gateway to the > apartment network (and shortly thereafter the C128 will join it). > > I tried to netboot GS/OS on it -- I don't know what version (this is a > ROM 03 1MB IIgs). It gives me the nice "Welcome to the IIGS" screen, > an AppleShare CDEV? appears lower-left and then disappears, it chugs along > some more, and then drops out and puts me back at the AFP client. It > then refuses to boot GS/OS at all until I restart the machine. > > Is this a symptom of something specific? If I just wanted to check if the > machine were capbale and properly configured for running GS/OS, how could > I do that? And where can I find GS/OS disk images? I looked in > > ftp://ftp.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Software_Upd ates/English-North_American/Apple_II/Apple_IIGS_System_6.0.1/ > > but there doesn't appear to be anything in there(?). Disk Copy-format would > be nice, something I can break apart on my Power Mac. > > Thanks for any suggestions, > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- Proponents of other opinions will be merrily beaten to a bloody pulp. ------ From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue May 8 18:53:26 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: PCjr keyboards In-Reply-To: <200105082328.QAA04598@stockholm.ptloma.edu> References: <200105082328.QAA04598@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: > > >The PCjr I have is still infrared, but at least it has the >"proper" keyboard >> >and not the Chiclet one. >> >> Both of the original PCjr infrared keyboards also had >> connectors for the cable. > >You mean that "phone cord"-ish thing on the edge? Yes. The cord plugs into the keyboard as well as the 'K' connector on the rear of the PCjr. Here's the description of the cable as taken from the PCjr Tech Reference: "The keyboard cord is a 1.8 meter (6 foot), two twisted-pair cable, with a six-position RJ11 - type connector for the keyboard and a six-position Berg-type connector for the system unit." If you're in need of any specific connector pinouts let me know as the Tech. Ref. covers most of them. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From foo at siconic.com Tue May 8 17:56:08 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On Topic) and IMSAIs........ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 May 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > I have nothing against restorations, though obviously most > people would rather find an original in perfect condition. The thing > is, as these systems age, just like with classic cars, the unrestored > original in nice condition is going to become harder to find. > Restorations are still a touchy subject in hobbies such as dolls or > comic books though and in both hobbies a restored or otherwise > non-original example should be plainly represented as such. I don't > have a problem with the guy going to the trouble of making the Mark-8 > board set and tracking down the various parts...my problem is with his > representation. The parts he used may have been of the same type as > used to build original Mark-8's but since none of the major assemblies > actually came from an original Mark-8 his representation isn't > legitimate. But what was an "original Mark-8" besides just parts cobbled together? And if the solder masks could be made from the prints in the magazine then what he's doing is not necessarily devious, though it could be considered deceptive if indeed he is not saying outright that these are kits pieced together contemporarily as opposed to the 1970s era. That is the key distinction. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 8 18:52:11 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: PCjr keyboards In-Reply-To: <200105082328.QAA04598@stockholm.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at May 8, 1 04:28:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 611 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010509/d3f76221/attachment.ksh From foo at siconic.com Tue May 8 18:03:46 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On Topic) and IMSAIs........ In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010508141649.026db008@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 May 2001, Chuck McManis wrote: > Reproductions should be clearly labelled as such. The guy selling the > Mark-8 clone attempts to make the case that if you make the PCBs by > hand (as you would have in 1974), and you buy parts that were > available to buy back in 1974 (w/ 1974 date codes) and you assemble it > according to the directions in the article, then building it "today" > is just as legit as if it has been built in 1974. I would disagree with this thinking. The era is completely different. As I said in a previous message, it is an important distinction, since you really are assembling something from scratch (new old stock) vs. just putting together existing pieces (used old stock). > I can see the argument and its one used on the Concourse (classic car) > circuit a lot. If the car has all original parts (even if they came from 6 > different cars) then its an "original" as opposed to "it came out of the > factory like this." The Mark-8 is a particularly unique example in that > there was no 'factory.' > > I'm on the Concourse side in VAX land, if it was a DEC supported > configuration then I consider it "classic" even if the system didn't arrive > that way. Sometimes I've backed out things DEC _didn't_ support but the > customer did. In the case of a car or a VAX, you are mostly swapping various parts (engines, doors, emblems or boards, power supplies, hard drives respectively). In the case of a Mark-8, you are going down to the component level using whatever parts you can scrounge up that just happen to have the appropriate date codes. Is this a valid distinction? I think so. If you were able to get, say, the original manifold dyes and smelt your own manifolds that are basically the same as the original, are they truly original? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 8 18:59:23 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: I blew up my IIgs! In-Reply-To: <00ba01c0d81a$8a4b16a0$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> from "Claude.W" at May 8, 1 07:56:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 822 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010509/fa4c9308/attachment.ksh From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue May 8 19:05:38 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: <3AF881F1.4CA6C48E@woa.com.au> References: <3AF881F1.4CA6C48E@woa.com.au> Message-ID: >The NEC 9 pin monitors that went onto it were all multisync. The adapter >wasn't used onto the NEC video cards with the 9 pin outlet. The >multisync II were 640x480 16 colours max (I believe - I have two >floating around but only use for basic text screens). The II would do unlimited colors in analog mode and up to 64 colors in TTL mode. It's vertical freq range was 50 - 80 Hz with a maximum resolution of 800 x 560. I believe the 2a was the first to be able to reach 800 x 600, though the upgrade to the GS also was able to. It's horizontal freq. range was 15.5 - 35 khz. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 8 19:06:22 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: Brand new, old stock IBM keyboards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 May 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > BTW, for the XT, IBM changed that badge by adding the letters XT. > Did they? > I have a PC/XT system here. The 3 parts (keyboard, system box, MDA > And the keyboard's badge simply reads : > IBM > Personal > Computer > Are you saying I have the 'wrong' keyboard? Oops! I took a look at half a dozen; they all just say IBM : Personal : Computer" I took a better look at the "XT" keyboard; it has definitely been "tampered with". The "XT" badge on it probably came from the case of an XT. My apologies for the wrong information. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Tue May 8 19:11:17 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: I blew up my IIgs! In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "May 9, 1 00:25:09 am" Message-ID: <200105090011.RAA13702@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > spare items). I will say that I wish every power supply were as easy > > to replace as the IIgses -- it literally just snaps in and out. > > I've never seen the point of this kind of construction. If I'm going to > be fixing something I am going to need at least a multimeter, soldering > iron, solder sucker, cutters, etc, and probably a 'scope or logic > analyser as well. Which means having to use a screwdriver on the case > screws is no big deal I was actually very impressed. Just yank the restraining clip in the front and the power supply comes right out. Swapping supplies took seconds. > I am suprised it did any damage, actually. Every SMPSU I've worked on has > current limiting, and just about anything you can do to the outputs > (short them to ground or to each other) will shut the power supply down, > but won't do any permanent damage. I'd be interested to know just what > did fail. The fuse near the AC input did blow but it appears to have blown too late. There are multiple scorch marks all over the board. At least three resistors no longer "resist" and one transistor seems dead also. Now, why did the disk drive do that? -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- If you want divine justice, die. -- Nick Seldon ---------------------------- From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue May 8 15:16:31 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: Interesting show on the Computer Garage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20010509001404.FLNS15234.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 20:15:37 +0100 (BST) > From: Peter Joules > To: Bryan Pope > Subject: Re: Interesting show on the Computer Garage > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > On Mon, 7 May 2001, Don Maslin wrote: > > > > > > > On 8 May 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > > > > > Bryan Pope skrev: > > > > > > >New York! ewwww.... I am from Ingersoll, a little town (Pop. 9500) > > > > > > Ingersoll... That name sounds familiar. Isn't that the name of some late 70s > > > video game console? > > > > > > Not sure about that, but it was half the name of an outfit that built > > air compressors :) > > - don > > > They made watches in the 60s didn't they? Hmm not just that, there was a gentleman by this Ingersoll who invented inexpensive watches by using stamped plate movement on hollow pillars riveted to one plate, tapped for screw to secure other plate. Both plates has stamped out and drilled holes for bearings and key items by the "bridge" plate over one of pillar with a screw like escapement lever and balance wheel. Also did this also with hardened steel conical bearings design. Balance rests it's snightly rounded points in a small rounded bottom of conical caps instead of expensive drilled brass and hardened end plates for steel or jewels for balance wheels. Two more innvotive items that made this watches cheaper in that old days was the main spring made weaker and thinner and the barrel mainsping sits in more large with fiction fit for time adjustment gear to drive both hour and minute hands. Finally the escapement lever and it's escapement wheel, The wheel has series of "nubbins" stamped out of brass plate to draw in the two pin lever while out of engagement with balance wheel and when tripped imparts impulse to the balance wheel. All of this makes this design bit more durable in use and rough handling. Wear problem is not a big issue on a well built Ingersoll watch types if the steel is good quality and brass work-hardened properly. Worn bits is easily repaired or replaced quickly and easily. Cannot do this to Timexes it's too low quality. At that time manufacturing process was mostly milling parts out of brass either by hand or machine and less on stamping process. At same time many of them were hand-made or hand-built out of pieces and individually adjusted. If anybody have worn out wind up timex watches snap the back off and look, failing that, find a old westcox clock and unscrew back off. That's clone of Ingersoll's design mostly, if you manage to have a true photo or diagram of Ingersoll's design, it's completely different but the idea is remains the same. Cheers, Wizard > > -- > Regards > Pete > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue May 8 19:23:14 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On Topic) and IMSAIs........ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >If you were able to get, say, the original manifold dyes and smelt your >own manifolds that are basically the same as the original, are they truly >original? No, I don't feel that they are. I would still call them reproductions. The time-frame has as much to do with it as any other aspect. Your part might be perfect in every detail, but it wasn't manufactured in the same time period as the original. Plus in the example stated above, it isn't even the same manufacturer. Is a Mark-8, assmembled from era-parts 30 years after the builder's article still an original Mark-8? Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From terryc at woa.com.au Tue May 8 19:23:57 2001 From: terryc at woa.com.au (Terry Collins) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: Multi-Z80 system design References: <20010508160957.14146.qmail@web12304.mail.yahoo.com> <3AF8760C.948F88BF@woa.com.au> <15096.30896.691462.634004@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3AF88E1D.3F4F34A8@woa.com.au> Dave McGuire wrote: > If you don't plan to use them for anything, I'd suggest distributing > them here on the list or perhaps putting them up on eBay. Since being told about this list (looking for NCR 3434 system 3000 info), I've become enthused a bit more as to some of my interests in old computers and bits. I have to admit that up until now I've been scrapping them because there is a limit to how much stuff one can keep and I could never find anyone who wanted them. OTH, my working network consists largely of 486 and Pentium computers, because they do the job(s) I need. Of most use, to people in Australia, would be my list of surplus hardware. http://www.woa.com.au/linux/lists/surplushardware.html. This list was established for the purpose of ensuring that old hardware was given another chance of life. Very rarely somthing gets used (uni students satellite tracking project, camera pan and tilt, occassionally systems to deserving poor, etc). Most of the time, it resides here for a few years, then gets de-chipped and binned/recycled/foundry metal/etc. I say "in Australia" because shipping is kind of expensive for this stuff and I'm not out to make money, nor do I want to loose money, so I don't do COD, send on spec, bill, etc. If you are fussy, third saturdays each month are usually open-house for Linux and other computer stuff. I have sold stuff off the list, some network cards, to folks in the USA. I packaged them up, then they organised shipping and sent me a cheque. So if you are overseas and want stuff, then that is the deal. They were also honest, decent folk and paid a fair and reasonable price above what they had previously purchased these cards at because they were getting harder to find. If stuff like Z80 CTC and other chips are useful, then I am very happy to start a chip list as well. Over the years, I've kept any socketted chip on any board I have thrown out. It will be a "if you know what the numbers mean, then it is yours" sort of deal. This will take some time though as there are about ten large plastic bins full of chips, motors, wires, etc to be sorted and accessable storage system worked out. I noted the recent RAM chip messages and now know why each time I just couldn't through out those memory boards populated with ram chips. As to auctions, I'm not in this as a way of making money. I do this for the same reason I help the local kids maintain their bicycles (I like bicycle and see them a serious mode of transport for cities and a legitimate recreational tool). That madness has spread to providing four computers for the kids to play games on. When they can read and are a bit better at arithmetic, I'll find those old text mode basic game listings and the PCC games book I have and get them started on coding. In time, they might end up as linux coders. -- Terry Collins {:-)}}} Ph(02) 4627 2186 Fax(02) 4628 7861 email: terryc@woa.com.au www: http://www.woa.com.au WOA Computer Services "People without trees are like fish without clean water" From chomko at greenbelt.com Tue May 8 19:42:45 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: Pram battery References: <008901c0d822$159444a0$73e3cfd8@pii500> Message-ID: <3AF89284.A30F58AE@greenbelt.com> Yes, the lithium batteries that are 3.6V and about half the length of a double-A and just as wide. The older Mac IIs used two, whereas the more modern systems use one. Radio $hack wants $10 a piece for them (when they have them), most outlet electronics stores sell them for $5. Eric P.S. I used to repair Macs and as Jeff stated the Macs wouldn't even boot without them. Needless to say, many repairs that I did were to replace said battery. Jeff Hellige wrote: > >What in tunket is a pram battery? My pram was manually operated... fully Y2K > >compliant, too! > > > > > My first suspect is often the pram battery > > The closest analogy I can make concerning what a PRAM battery > is would be that it's the Mac version of the PC's BIOS settings. The > Mac keeps various setting data in a small RAM area and the battery > retains the info. WIthout the info, the Mac generally won't even > boot until the battery is replaced. > > Jeff > -- > Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From vaxman at qwest.net Tue May 8 19:54:39 2001 From: vaxman at qwest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: On topic: VAX graphics board question Message-ID: Greetings all, I have a VAXstation 3100/M48 with a rather odd graphics card in it: SCANPROC 8 PLANE 2D Made by digital, same form factor (roughly) as the VS40X, but Ultrix 4.4 doesn't recognize it. VMS 5.? does. Since the goal is to run NetBSD when support for graphics stabilizes (and Ultrix til then), does anyone know what's up with this board? One big LSI logic chip instead of the 10 or so small DEC chips. NOTE: This message cross-posted to classiccmp and port-vax... Please edit your headers (or reply to me personally). Thanks! Clint From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 8 20:09:43 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: Codata? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A friend has a somewhat odd machine. "Codata systems" [no, NOT coRdata] It's about the size of an XT, with one floppy, one hard disk, and a card cage of boards that are slightly longer than S-100. One of the boards in it has a 68000. It has 8 DB25 ports (wired 1-8 and 20)? Is anyone here familiar with it? -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 8 20:14:02 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: parts needed In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010508152224.03302370@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: >It may be proprietary since I fear (but don't know) that one slot cannot >be m-plexed in std isa. Seemed like straight through connections. My recollection is that the XT (and presumably AT) slots are simply wired in parallel. Unlike certain other systems (Apple ][), the IBM can not tell which slot a board is in. EXCEPT!!!: On the real (non-clone) IBM XT, the slot closest to the power supply IS different from the others! When IBM released the XT, they had an awful surplus of serial cards, so they stuck a "free" serial card into that slot to prevent it from getting used for anything else that it might not be compatible with. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From antonio at ptt.yu Tue May 8 20:30:33 2001 From: antonio at ptt.yu (Antonio Defectors) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: IBM System/36 5363 Security Issue Message-ID: <3AF89DB9.1548DBC4@ptt.yu> I dont have any idea of that system at all, but have a big problem finding what is what of IC-s from 5363. If you have any information on what that codes on IC-s and discrete components mean, feel free to e-mail me direct. Best Regards, Antonio antonio@ptt.yu From antonio at ptt.yu Tue May 8 20:38:06 2001 From: antonio at ptt.yu (Antonio Defectors) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: IBM PC parts Message-ID: <3AF89F7E.33066121@ptt.yu> Since you are all proffesionals (the way you talk about things), looking at me, i should be quiet, but i have a serious question (no flames real problem). What is what in 5363? What that 3+4 digits code mean and do anyone know where to find equivalency tables for that. Like 1582582 == 7400 (wild guess). If anyone have a direct address (www) of a solution, feel free to e-mail me directly (i am rarely online, thunder eaten my modem, working partialy with a relay circuit suplement for electronic hook). I have trashed this box because it was defective already. Best Regards to ALL of you, Antonio antonio@ptt.yu From chomko at greenbelt.com Tue May 8 20:41:37 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog References: <3AF8213B.1667.9AE08D4@localhost> Message-ID: <3AF8A051.8CFA346B@greenbelt.com> Lawrence Walker wrote: > You'd be better off picking up an old monitor with an analogue<>digital > switch. They are fairly easy to come by in Thrifts. I have 3 or 4 of them > myself that I picked up for nearly nothing. It would cost you more in parts > not to mention labor. > NEC Multisyncs have the TTL/Analog switch. Eric > > Larry > > > Hello, all: > > > > I have an old CGA monitor that's working now, but I can envision it > > someday soon not working. So, I was wondering if anyone has built a > > converter so that they can use a standard VGA monitor (analog) on a CGA > > output (TTL)? > > > > Rich > > > > Reply to: > lgwalker@look.ca From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue May 8 20:50:48 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: Pram battery In-Reply-To: <3AF89284.A30F58AE@greenbelt.com> References: <008901c0d822$159444a0$73e3cfd8@pii500> <3AF89284.A30F58AE@greenbelt.com> Message-ID: >P.S. I used to repair Macs and as Jeff stated the Macs wouldn't even >boot without >them. >Needless to say, many repairs that I did were to replace said battery. One interesting thing I've found though is that the LC-575 with it's 4.5V alkaline PRAM battery will still boot, even if the battery is dead. I've got a LC-575 mainboard in my Color Classic and it has a dead (or nearly so) 4.5V PRAM battery but it works fine...it just complains about the clock everytime you turn it on. I rarely have much trouble finding the 3.6 Lithium 1/2AA types, though they are a bit expensive, but I don't have any of the 4.5V types. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue May 8 20:37:36 2001 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog Message-ID: <20010508.210132.-413011.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Tue, 8 May 2001 19:27:55 -0400 Jeff Hellige writes: > Most of the early NEC Multisync series (original, II, GS, > plus others) allowed various digital and analog modes to be switch > selectable. They would also sync low enough to be used on various > pre-VGA video adapters. I believe that the original Multsync > included the additional switches to specify the color depth as > described in previous posts here, while later models did not. I > don't recall my GS having them. An excellent monitor > btw...paperwhite grayscale. > One of *my* favorites is the Mitsubishi AUM-1371. Thompson also sold rebadged versions of this model. Not only was this sucker multi-synchronous, but it supported *composite* video as well (worked terriffic with my SEGA Master Sytem game console). Awesome monitor-- it could synch up to just about everything I could throw at it at the time (including a PerSyst BoB-16 video adaptor). Wish I had one today . . . Jeff ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue May 8 22:27:46 2001 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: I blew up my IIgs! In-Reply-To: <200105082315.QAA04520@stockholm.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at May 08, 2001 04:15:42 PM Message-ID: <200105090327.VAA12579@calico.litterbox.com> I've had 4-5 drives hung off the end of my gs's and a plethora of boards inside as well and nary a problem. I'd think long and hard (and think about checking the drive out electronically) before plugging that 3.5 inch drive in again. and yes, I've mixed 5.25 and 3.5 inch drives. My cards, I should note, were all of modern manufacture, so they may draw considerably less than what you've got in your GS. > > Yes, I really did. Are Apple IIgses that easy to kill? Normally I just keep > a single 5.25" drive attached to it, but I needed a 3.5" drive as well > today (I'll explain as part of a larger question). So I plugged the 3.5" > into the computer, the 5.25" into the 3.5", turned the machine on, it made > three loud pops and died. The power light does not come on now and there > is no activity from the disk drives. > > I fortunately do have another IIgs in stock, and was able to swap power > supplies so that it boots again (this second is a defective unit I use for > spare items). I will say that I wish every power supply were as easy > to replace as the IIgses -- it literally just snaps in and out. > > Now that I have shot an apparently unrepairable PS, or is it?, what did I > do wrong so I don't destroy more hardware in the future? Can you really > not mix drives? Remember, I'm a C64 freak and I have all kinds of disk > drives connected up to my Commodore farm. :-P > > Now the larger question. > > This IIgs netboots ProDOS 16 from an SE/30 over AppleTalk, which works > quite well. Soon I'll have the IIgs using the SE/30 as a gateway to the > apartment network (and shortly thereafter the C128 will join it). > > I tried to netboot GS/OS on it -- I don't know what version (this is a > ROM 03 1MB IIgs). It gives me the nice "Welcome to the IIGS" screen, > an AppleShare CDEV? appears lower-left and then disappears, it chugs along > some more, and then drops out and puts me back at the AFP client. It > then refuses to boot GS/OS at all until I restart the machine. > > Is this a symptom of something specific? If I just wanted to check if the > machine were capbale and properly configured for running GS/OS, how could > I do that? And where can I find GS/OS disk images? I looked in > > ftp://ftp.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Software_Updates/English-North_American/Apple_II/Apple_IIGS_System_6.0.1/ > > but there doesn't appear to be anything in there(?). Disk Copy-format would > be nice, something I can break apart on my Power Mac. > > Thanks for any suggestions, > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- Proponents of other opinions will be merrily beaten to a bloody pulp. ------ > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From donm at cts.com Tue May 8 22:44:08 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: I blew up my IIgs! In-Reply-To: <200105090011.RAA13702@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 May 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > spare items). I will say that I wish every power supply were as easy > > > to replace as the IIgses -- it literally just snaps in and out. > > > > I've never seen the point of this kind of construction. If I'm going to > > be fixing something I am going to need at least a multimeter, soldering > > iron, solder sucker, cutters, etc, and probably a 'scope or logic > > analyser as well. Which means having to use a screwdriver on the case > > screws is no big deal > > I was actually very impressed. Just yank the restraining clip in the front > and the power supply comes right out. Swapping supplies took seconds. > > > I am suprised it did any damage, actually. Every SMPSU I've worked on has > > current limiting, and just about anything you can do to the outputs > > (short them to ground or to each other) will shut the power supply down, > > but won't do any permanent damage. I'd be interested to know just what > > did fail. > > The fuse near the AC input did blow but it appears to have blown too late. > There are multiple scorch marks all over the board. At least three > resistors no longer "resist" and one transistor seems dead also. In the vein of resurrection, I just brought an SE/30 back to SCSI availability again with the assistance of www.junkyardjeff.com. He has a pretty full selection of Mac parts - Atari, Amiga, Commodore, Next, etc coming up also - reasonable prices and prompt delivery. Tough combination to beat! I was very happy with his service! - don > Now, why did the disk drive do that? > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- If you want divine justice, die. -- Nick Seldon ---------------------------- > From rdd at smart.net Tue May 8 22:50:23 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On Topic) and IMSAIs........ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 May 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > No, I don't feel that they are. I would still call them > reproductions. The time-frame has as much to do with it as any other > aspect. Your part might be perfect in every detail, but it wasn't > manufactured in the same time period as the original. Plus in the > example stated above, it isn't even the same manufacturer. Is a > Mark-8, assmembled from era-parts 30 years after the builder's > article still an original Mark-8? Hmmm... As long as they're useful, does the aforementioned matter? -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 8 23:47:42 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: SoCal auction madness, free stuff In-Reply-To: References: <000201c0d702$a332dd60$8db5f7a5@guntis> from "Guntis Sprenne" at May 7, 1 09:45:56 am Message-ID: Such a week, great but very long sweaty dirty days. FREE, yes free, after two days of plundering the auction remains, the rest and its no small amount is FREE. The catch is that the roll off dumpster arrived Tuesday night, and Wednesday morning stuff will start going into it. Not to worry, there is plenty of JUNK to go in first, likely more than the dumpster will hold. Location, BBC auction 1 block east of the 405 on Bolsa (BBC sign on building, go in the back) Huntington Beach, CA. Time, 9 to 5 Wednesday, some chance of a few hours on Thursday, but I wouldn't count on it (email me Wed night). Earlier is BETTER. No phones on site, and my cell is dying with about 15 minutes of talk per day. I plan to be there at 9am Wed. Whats left? A pallet of CD games on spindles, 10 pallets of plastic scrap, 3 pallets of scrap circuit boards, 2 or 3 pallets of iffy monitors, another of good monitor parts, Starlan phone stuff, other phone stuff, several pallets of PC keyboards, a stack of blue antistatic service dept mats, maybe 50 old compact macs (plus, classic, SE, etc. no there are color classics left or ever were), and misc PC stuff I don't have much interest in like brand new, but big and old hard drives. From foo at siconic.com Tue May 8 23:10:03 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On Topic) and IMSAIs........ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 May 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > No, I don't feel that they are. I would still call them > reproductions. The time-frame has as much to do with it as any other > aspect. Your part might be perfect in every detail, but it wasn't > manufactured in the same time period as the original. Plus in the > example stated above, it isn't even the same manufacturer. Is a > Mark-8, assmembled from era-parts 30 years after the builder's article > still an original Mark-8? Exactly. Based on the era factor, I would say no. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Tue May 8 23:11:12 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: Codata? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 May 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > A friend has a somewhat odd machine. > > "Codata systems" [no, NOT coRdata] > It's about the size of an XT, with one floppy, one hard disk, and a card > cage of boards that are slightly longer than S-100. One of the boards in > it has a 68000. It has 8 DB25 ports (wired 1-8 and 20)? > > Is anyone here familiar with it? Hey Fred. Codata 3300? It's a Unix box. Early 80s. I've got one :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 8 23:59:15 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: Brand new, old stock IBM keyboards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Tue, 8 May 2001, Tony Duell wrote: >> > These are the heavy original keyboards, PN 1503206. The badge at the top >> > left says IBM Personal Computer, below it is a double column of 10 >>function >> That's the PC and PC/XT keybaord AFAIK. It won't work on a PC/AT. The >> connector has the same pinouts (well, the same signal names), but the >> data protocol is rather different. > >BTW, for the XT, IBM changed that badge by adding the letters XT. >Therefore, these would be the "RARE" PC ones. Considerably more rare to me this morning, some &&(%% grabbed my stack of them at the auction site. I am pretty sure of who it was, nice lady, fingers coated in glue. What completely upsets me is that these are almost certainly worthless to her, and will get thrown out once looked over/tested. Maybe I can talk to her tomorrow, sigh. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 8 23:54:51 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: parts needed In-Reply-To: <20010508151258.M8319@spies.com> References: <002b01c0d7ef$5053d200$9cc762d8@idcomm.com>; from Richard Erlacher on Tue, May 08, 2001 at 12:42:34PM -0600 <200105072052.NAA14590@shell1.aracnet.com> <20010508142309.L8319@spies.com> <002b01c0d7ef$5053d200$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: >Richard Erlacher writes: >> If you mean an ISA extender board, > >Actually, I'm looking for the kind that will allow me to mount an ISA card >parallel to the motherboard. I've seen them in desktop systems and >I expect that people just throw them away. Aren't those generally proprietary to the brand/model of motherboard? From fernande at internet1.net Wed May 9 00:38:26 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: Vintage References: Message-ID: <3AF8D7D2.748FFE25@internet1.net> Maybe it had one of the Reply Powerboards in it :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Russ Blakeman wrote: > > Much like the term "collectable" - what wide open term. Hell anything is > collectable since you can collect it, even trash. The local dump has all > sorts of "collectables". Rare is so overused - just like the "rare" PS/2 > model 80 I saw on ebay last year - so rare that I had 8 of them on auction > at one time. From vcf at siconic.com Tue May 8 23:46:09 2001 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: VCF East 1.0 - July 28/29 in Marlborough, Massachusetts! Message-ID: It's finally official! VCF East 1.0 July 28-29, 2001 10am to 5pm daily Best Western Royal Plaza Hotel and Trade Center Marlborough, Massachusetts Admission $10 daily at the door Speakers Want to give a talk at VCF East 1.0? E-mail me at . Exhibitors Sign-up your exhibit at http://www.vintage.org/2001/east/exhibit.php3 Vendors Want to sell vintage computer stuff at VCF East 1.0? Contact me at . More info to come soon, including updated VCF East 1.0 web pages with speaker schedule, exhibits and more! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From edick at idcomm.com Wed May 9 01:17:30 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: WTB/T: hp-21 battery pack anyone? References: <200105082305.f48N5Y010826@bg-tc-ppp74.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <001901c0d84f$ba77c000$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've had lots of different calculators over the years, and these two are the ones I use now. It's odd, since I really never learned to like RPN types. It must be the handy size that keeps me using 'em. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Pechter" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 5:05 PM Subject: Re: WTB/T: hp-21 battery pack anyone? > > I have an HP-21 and a 25C. For over 20 years, I've used a slightly modified > > battery pack, modified only in that the individual NiCd's are removable and > > easily replaced. This was done in about 15 seconds with an Exacto knife. The > > batteries are easily exchanged if they go south, but I often use alkaline > > batteries if I really need to, with no ill effects yet. > > > > Dick > > I did the same thing with my sister's HP21 (which I used, gave back and > she lost 8-() > > Boy I wish I still had that calculator. > > Bill > > --- > Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a > villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller > bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue May 8 19:08:58 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: Cameron Kaiser "Re: Converting TTL monitor to Analog" (May 8, 16:22) References: <200105082322.QAA13518@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <10105090108.ZM9934@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 8, 16:22, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > I believe there was a 9 pin analogue video standard that NEC used at one > > time. It wasn't EGA, though. > > Yes, there was. stockholm's NEC monitor on its console is such a monitor. > It's a regular SVGA monitor in every sense except for the 9-pin connector > -- I have driven it up to 1024x768x256 without difficulty. Definitely not > EGA. :-) Taxan, Eizo and Philips used the same pinout for multisyncs, some of which certainly go up to SVGA resolution. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From azog at azog.org Wed May 9 04:45:25 2001 From: azog at azog.org (Billy D'Augustine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: Codata? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I had one of these quite some time ago. I didn't have much luck with it. I don't recall the model number, but it was black, and for an 80's machine, that was mildly radical. It was also obliquely shaped - i.e., it wasn't exactly square on the sides, but I think it bowed out a bit. Mine was rather big, tho, in four boxes - the CPU in one box, a QIC-80 in another box, and two boxes with Quantum 8" 80mb drives. It was some sort of unix machine, which is partially the reason why I didn't have much luck with it. The filesystems were corrupt and/or destroyed, and I didn't have any tapes. I think Codata even still existed at the time I owned it, but wasn't able to spend $$$ for an OS, and this was long before NetBSD. Being 68k, I'd bet NetBSD runs on it (I think it's VME based) > > A friend has a somewhat odd machine. > > "Codata systems" [no, NOT coRdata] > It's about the size of an XT, with one floppy, one hard disk, and a card > cage of boards that are slightly longer than S-100. One of the boards in > it has a 68000. It has 8 DB25 ports (wired 1-8 and 20)? > > Is anyone here familiar with it? > > -- > Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com > XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com > PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 > Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 > From rhblake at bigfoot.com Wed May 9 05:15:04 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: Vintage In-Reply-To: <3AF8D7D2.748FFE25@internet1.net> Message-ID: Not from the description. It didn't even have SCSI in it if I remember correctly, had and ESDI drive and controller. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Chad Fernandez > Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 12:38 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Vintage > > > Maybe it had one of the Reply Powerboards in it :-) > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > Russ Blakeman wrote: > > > > Much like the term "collectable" - what wide open term. Hell > anything is > > collectable since you can collect it, even trash. The local dump has all > > sorts of "collectables". Rare is so overused - just like the "rare" PS/2 > > model 80 I saw on ebay last year - so rare that I had 8 of them > on auction > > at one time. From foxvideo at wincom.net Wed May 9 06:04:34 2001 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: IBM System/36 5363 Security Issue In-Reply-To: <3AF89DB9.1548DBC4@ptt.yu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010509070213.00a79660@mail.wincom.net> At 03:30 AM 09/05/2001 +0200, you wrote: >I dont have any idea of that system at all, but have a >big problem finding what is what of IC-s from 5363. > >If you have any information on what that codes on IC-s and >discrete components mean, feel free to e-mail me direct. > >Best Regards, Antonio > >antonio@ptt.yu Check out the newsgroup "comp.sys.ibm.sys3x.misc " It is not very active but you might get some answers. Regards Charlie Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor ON N8Y 3J8 foxvideo@wincom.net Check out: Camcorder Kindergarten at http://chasfoxvideo.com From optimus at canit.se Tue May 8 21:32:50 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <703.529T2500T2126393optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >> The fact that NEC provided an adapter to go between its monitor and the >> typical VGA card suggests that this is not an unusual application for their >> products. >I believe there was a 9 pin analogue video standard that NEC used at one >time. It wasn't EGA, though. Not only NEC, in fact. Eizo used it as well, and a while ago, I found a 1996 VGA monitor which used the same 9-pin input. I wouldn't be surprised if Commodore used it in some of their 19XX series monitors as well. The pinout is available on the HWB site. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Iggy tipsar: Koppla aldrig en C128-transformator till en A500. ?ven om kontakterna ser likadana ut, ligger sp?nningarna fel. From optimus at canit.se Tue May 8 21:18:59 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:12 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: <003b01c0d736$ace57aa0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <1735.529T2950T1986875optimus@canit.se> Richard Erlacher skrev: >the old CGA monitor is not much other than a TV set. If you modify a TV set >it will work fine with the CGA card. If you expect good quality text, >however, you might want to remove the sound pickoff, as it will reduce the >bandwidth to where the already crummy looking 80 column text is useless. The >one thing a VGA isn't likely to do is sync at NTSC rates, which is what the >CGA is designed to do. Just to boast a little I got my second NEC Multisync 3D this weekend at 30 crowns. Very useful monitors, they sync down to 15 KHz and have also got TTL inputs. >I've often wondered what's meant by "TTL" in the context of monitors, since >the EGA monitors have analog-compatible inputs. The only problem with them >is the sync frequency at which they work. VGA monitors certainly aren't TTL. > They're just as analog as can be. I've often wondered what's meant by TTL, monitors or not. I understand that it's some kind of standard for digital signal levels, and WRT monitors it's a digital coding of colours through the use of one or several colour bits or additional intensity bits. But then what's meant by ECL? That's also used in some monitors, and apparently in digital circuitry as well, or at least that's the impression I've got from this list. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "LART is an acronym for Luser Attitude Readjustment Tool, and is generally a piece of heavy hard material such as a cricket or baseball bat, hunk of pipe, or 2x4 for the fine tuning of a luser's atitude. This is a noun that can be used as a verb. If I say I lart someone, I mean that I am performing delicate tuning procedures upon that persons head utilizing a LART. An ICBM would be considered an agressive LART." From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Wed May 9 07:49:32 2001 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:13 2005 Subject: Fw: percom board Message-ID: Hello all, I was bidding on a Percom S-100 cassette interface on a nameless auction site :-), and I was contacted by someone who wanted to know what my interest in the board was. I replied, and as it turns out, the "someone" was the daughter of Percom's founder! She sent me the message below, detailing some of the history of Percom. Sadly, she has nothing left from the Percom line, and has made a request at the bottom of her message. I have used her name and email with permission. Please contact her directly if you can be of assistance... Rich B. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Margo " To: Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 04:15 PM Subject: Re: percom board > > Percom was an upstart computer peripherals company, with a brilliant mind behind it. In the right place at the right time. On the cutting edge of the computer hobbiest market of the 1970's. Before the internet, before there was a computer in almost every home and every classroom in America, there were the hobbiest. Garage engineers > Making computer systems from components gathered from here and there. My Dad was one of those engineers, > His name was Harold Mauch and he founded a company known as Percom Data Corporation. > > Percom started in the backroom of our 3 bedroom house in Texas. Dad got tired of working for others and the partnership he had started with 3 buddies wasn't working out. So one day, literally, he decided to break free and market his own ideas himself. His idea was a cassette interface for the hobbiest computer. This was in about 1976. He took out a small ad in Byte magazine and went to work. I remember helping him build PC boards for 50 cents each when I was 12 years old. After awhile the third bedroom wasn't enough space for him so he got a semi large portable building and put it in our backyard. It wasn't long before he had to hire someone to help him and things were going well. In the summer of 1977 My Mother quit her job with Xerox and went to work with my Dad. They were the ideal partnership. He was the brains behind the products, and she was an organizational genius. It wasn't long before they had 3 employees and then a few more. They were growing out of the first building they had rented and needed a new place. They found the perfect shop/office just down the street and moved in. Soon they had 50 employees, engineers, assemblers, office workers etc. Everything a real company has. I remember him telling a story once about how he had walked into the production area one day and it was just humming with activity, this was his dream and he had succeeded. > > The people who worked for Percom in the 1970's were special. They were a family and parties and picnic's were the norm. When I turned 13 they all through me a surprise party. I would hang around in the summers, do some work but mostly bother the employees. Sometimes I would stuff PC boards and clip wires, whatever there was for a 13 year old to do. I really enjoyed the people and the atmosphere. I think everyone who worked there at the time really enjoyed their jobs. > > Soon there were 100 or more people there and they were quickly busting out at the seems. As with any company as it gets larger, there was dissention among the ranks. Engineers were unhappy because they didn't get all the credit for new products, Some took ideas and started their own companies. Some just wanted to break out on their own and do what Dad had done, and be their own boss. But things were changing. New products were being developed and sales were going up. The double density adapter for floppy drives were booming, we no longer sold the old cassette interface product and we were onto bigger and better things- Floppy disk drives. > > I can't tell you the ins and outs of the technical side of the business, for I was just an observer throughout this whole process, but I can tell you business was good. It was at about this time that they made the decision to get a much larger office space. This was the beginning of the end for Percom. They got a huge space and moved in 1981. Because of the new space Percom needed sales desperately. Now the sales were pretty much eaten up by the lease on the building and the salaries of the employees. > Dad needed to do something, so he and mom decided to bring in some investors. The investors came in with their money and their entourage. We began hiring big money executives, sales execs, marketing execs, engineers etc. all making huge salaries. Some even getting hiring bonuses just for coming to work for us. But all of that was okay because we had the investors money to pay them with, and they were going to bring in much more money than they would consume, in theory. > > Work began on a new product, the Hard Drive. This was something new but necessary for Percom to stay competitive. The only problem, no one could get it to work right. So we kept selling Peripherals, Disk drives, Doublers, etc. The new guys knew nothing about the industry, all they knew was how to make money. They had all been pretty successful up until that point, so they must know what they are doing, right? Everyone was working hard to make Percom Bigger and better. All the employees and management were working hard to make this thing work. But something was about to happen > No one could have predicted. > > In August of 1982 Dad found out he had Leukemia, by the end of the month he was dead. As time progressed it became clear that with my Dad's loss Percom had lost it's heart and soul. New products would continue but nothing could keep up with the fat salaries and high rent that Percom had committed itself to. > > Mom quit within a year after Dad's death and so did I. By that time I had graduated High school and had gone to work for Percom full-time in the accounting department. By the mid 80's Percom was gone, but not it's products. I've recently become aware of old Percom products (some in like-new condition) being sold at auction on E-bay. It's always nice to see those products still being used, and I usually try and contact some of the people buying them. > >I Would love to find an OLD CIS30 board or old Byte magazines from 76 or 77. Specifically one issue with a purple(or other pastel, maybe blue) cover, with a large cassette on the cover. This was the first magazine percom ran an ad in. > Well for those of you using this old stuff, Good luck on your projects, You are all made of the same stuff my Dad was made of with those Fertile minds and love of gadgets. > > Margo From knightstalkerbob at netscape.net Wed May 9 08:03:21 2001 From: knightstalkerbob at netscape.net (Bob Mason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:13 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog References: <1735.529T2950T1986875optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <7E3F11C0.250AEBE1.CF1A260E@netscape.net> "TTL" refers to Transistor/Transistor Logic. Low usually .5VDC to zero, high >~4VDC, usually 5VDC. IIRC "ECL" is Emitter Coupled Logic. Don't remember the voltage levels. Bob Mason > >I've often wondered what's meant by "TTL" in the context of monitors, since > >the EGA monitors have analog-compatible inputs. ?The only problem with them > >is the sync frequency at which they work. ?VGA monitors certainly aren't TTL. > > They're just as analog as can be. > > I've often wondered what's meant by TTL, monitors or not. I understand that > it's some kind of standard for digital signal levels, and WRT monitors it's a > digital coding of colours through the use of one or several colour bits or > additional intensity bits. > But then what's meant by ECL? That's also used in some monitors, and > apparently in digital circuitry as well, or at least that's the impression > I've got from this list. > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > "LART is an acronym for Luser Attitude Readjustment Tool, and is generally a > piece of heavy hard material such as a cricket or baseball bat, hunk of pipe, > or 2x4 for the fine tuning of a luser's atitude. This is a noun that can be > used as a verb. If I say I lart someone, I mean that I am performing delicate > tuning procedures upon that persons head utilizing a ?LART. An ICBM would be > considered an agressive LART." > > -- Bob Mason 2x Amiga 500's, GVP A530 (40mhz 68030/68882, 8meg Fast, SCSI), 1.3/3.1, 2meg Chip, full ECS chipset, EZ135, 1084S, big harddrives, 2.2xCD Gateway Performance 500 Piece 'o Crap, 'ME, 128meg, 20Gig, flatbed. __________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1580.monmouth.com Wed May 9 08:23:46 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1580.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:13 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: <7E3F11C0.250AEBE1.CF1A260E@netscape.net> from Bob Mason at "May 9, 2001 09:03:21 am" Message-ID: <200105091323.f49DNkF13847@bg-tc-ppp1580.monmouth.com> > "TTL" refers to Transistor/Transistor Logic. Low usually .5VDC to zero, high >~4VDC, usually 5VDC. > > IIRC "ECL" is Emitter Coupled Logic. Don't remember the voltage levels. > > Bob Mason I think ECL had -3 volts as one of the levels... don't remember the rest but I thought it was +10 or +12v. Anyone here ever service a DEC KL10 and know? Bill From edick at idcomm.com Wed May 9 09:23:55 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:13 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog References: <200105091323.f49DNkF13847@bg-tc-ppp1580.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <001701c0d893$ae56f360$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> If you take a look at the output structure used with ECL, which was quite common at one time for sync along with negative-going video on workstation type monitors having very high bandwidth, you'll see the levels that ECL uses range between -1.75 and -0.9, for 0 and 1, respectively. The supply voltages were Vcc=0.0 Volts, and Vee= -5.2 Volts. Other involved voltages include a Vbb at -1.29 Volts, and Vtt at -2 Volts. The typical logic element consists of a diff-amp buffered with an emitter follower. This is very fast, but doesn't swing very far. The emitter follower can't sink current, so the termination is vital. The inputs to the logic element are typically the base of an npn transistor. If you want a good text on signal integrity, I'd recommend the Motorola MECL System Design Handbook, by the way. It's considered by many to be THE definitive work on signal integrity in high speed systems, though it's been around for over 20 years, and, though we don't use ECL as much as was once the practice, the signal integrity issues remain the same. Now that logic swing is gradually approaching the range used with ECL, it seems the work presented is becoming more rather than less relevant. The signal integrity analysis software used by Mentor and by Cadence is based on the work presented in this document and it's still available. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Pechter" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 7:23 AM Subject: Re: Converting TTL monitor to Analog > > "TTL" refers to Transistor/Transistor Logic. Low usually .5VDC to zero, high >~4VDC, usually 5VDC. > > > > IIRC "ECL" is Emitter Coupled Logic. Don't remember the voltage levels. > > > > Bob Mason > > I think ECL had -3 volts as one of the levels... don't remember the rest > but I thought it was +10 or +12v. > > Anyone here ever service a DEC KL10 and know? > > Bill > > From mbbrutman at yahoo.com Wed May 9 10:01:04 2001 From: mbbrutman at yahoo.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:13 2005 Subject: PC keyboard to PCjr adapters ... In-Reply-To: <200105080657.BAA89832@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <20010509150104.18643.qmail@web4804.mail.yahoo.com> I've never seen one of these adapters, but I sure wouldn't mind getting my hands on one. If anybody knows a source for these, please drop me a line ... Mike mbbrutman@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From leec at slip.net Wed May 9 10:01:04 2001 From: leec at slip.net (Lee Courtney) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:13 2005 Subject: VCF East 1.0 - July 28/29 in Marlborough, Massachusetts! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sam, I'm assuming that The Retro-Computing Society of Rhode Island (http://www.osfn.org/rcs/) is helping with/participating? TCMHC has pointed them at some classic mini-systems that we couldn't help preserve. They've done a great job of picking up the ball and making sure they didn;t get scrapped. Lee Courtney President Monterey Software Group Inc. 1350 Pear Avenue, Suite J Mountain View, California 94043-1302 U.S.A. 650-964-7052 voice 650-964-6735 fax Advanced Authentication, Audit, and Access Control Tools and Consulting for HP3000 Business Servers http://www.editcorp.com/Businesses/MontereySoftware > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Vintage Computer > Festival > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 9:46 PM > To: Classic Computers Mailing List > Subject: VCF East 1.0 - July 28/29 in Marlborough, Massachusetts! > > > > It's finally official! > > VCF East 1.0 > July 28-29, 2001 > 10am to 5pm daily > Best Western Royal Plaza Hotel and Trade Center > Marlborough, Massachusetts > > Admission > > $10 daily at the door > > Speakers > > Want to give a talk at VCF East 1.0? E-mail me at . > > > Exhibitors > > Sign-up your exhibit at http://www.vintage.org/2001/east/exhibit.php3 > > > Vendors > > Want to sell vintage computer stuff at VCF East 1.0? Contact me at > . > > > More info to come soon, including updated VCF East 1.0 web pages with > speaker schedule, exhibits and more! > > Sellam Ismail Vintage > Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 9 10:38:06 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:13 2005 Subject: SoCal auction bits In-Reply-To: References: <3AF8D7D2.748FFE25@internet1.net> Message-ID: Just a couple more points on recent items at this SoCal auction. One pallet of MAI Basic4 stuff, maybe just terminals and a printer or two, but I haven't dug very deep, unfortunately likely won't. ArcNet cards are actually Thomas Conrad, with a passive hub. Several PC appletalk cards have shown up Two older Compaq rackmount units. From acorda at 1bigred.com Wed May 9 11:35:46 2001 From: acorda at 1bigred.com (acorda@1bigred.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:13 2005 Subject: FW: Rolm Rugged Novas Message-ID: <1147820015391635460@1bigred.com> Does anyone else on the list have a Rolm besides me? I wonder how many are actually in private hands. I have a 1602 that I picked up at the Manassas Va. hamfest a couple of years ago. The fellow that sold it to me claimed that he bought 2 of 'em at a NASA auction, which is believable because it has a couple of tags that proclaim it to be part of a "Spacecraft Simulator". I haven't yet had time to play with it, but I hope to do so sometime this summer. Attaching anything to the mil-spec connectors is going to require a lot of creativity :) -al- acorda@1bigred.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Pechter [mailto:pechter@bg-tc-ppp1375.monmouth.com] > Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 5:30 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Rolm Rugged Novas > > > > G'day DCC/DG lovers - > > > > I have updated the SimuLogics site with some DCC, Rolm and DG/One info. > > (Its a start, anyway.) > > > > www.SimuLogics.com/nostalgia/rolm/rolm.htm > > I know there's lots of those Rolms still in use by the military. > At least they were everywhere when I field serviced Vax systems at Fort > Monmouth (a hotbed of Army software development) in the mid '80's. > > Bill From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed May 9 13:20:31 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:13 2005 Subject: FW: Rolm Rugged Novas In-Reply-To: <1147820015391635460@1bigred.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010509141843.00a4fec0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Yeah, I have a couple of them. Mine are made by ROLM but were made for the US Navy so they're probably NOT standard. A lot of the navy computers are made by Rolm. Joe At 12:35 PM 5/9/01 -0400, you wrote: >Does anyone else on the list have a Rolm besides me? I wonder >how many are actually in private hands. I have a 1602 that I >picked up at the Manassas Va. hamfest a couple of years ago. >The fellow that sold it to me claimed that he bought 2 of 'em >at a NASA auction, which is believable because it has a couple >of tags that proclaim it to be part of a "Spacecraft Simulator". > >I haven't yet had time to play with it, but I hope to do so sometime >this summer. Attaching anything to the mil-spec connectors is going >to require a lot of creativity :) > >-al- >acorda@1bigred.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Bill Pechter [mailto:pechter@bg-tc-ppp1375.monmouth.com] > > Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 5:30 PM > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: Rolm Rugged Novas > > > > > > > G'day DCC/DG lovers - > > > > > > I have updated the SimuLogics site with some DCC, Rolm and DG/One info. > > > (Its a start, anyway.) > > > > > > www.SimuLogics.com/nostalgia/rolm/rolm.htm > > > > I know there's lots of those Rolms still in use by the military. > > At least they were everywhere when I field serviced Vax systems at Fort > > Monmouth (a hotbed of Army software development) in the mid '80's. > > > > Bill From optimus at canit.se Wed May 9 12:02:38 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:13 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1157.529T1900T10825561optimus@canit.se> Jeff Hellige skrev: >>The fact that NEC provided an adapter to go between its monitor and >>the typical >>VGA card suggests that this is not an unusual application for their >>products. > Most of the early NEC Multisync series (original, II, GS, >plus others) allowed various digital and analog modes to be switch >selectable. They would also sync low enough to be used on various >pre-VGA video adapters. I believe that the original Multsync >included the additional switches to specify the color depth as >described in previous posts here, while later models did not. I >don't recall my GS having them. An excellent monitor >btw...paperwhite grayscale. The 3D (which AFAIK is the last Multisync to sync down to 15KHz) has got the depth selector, so did the II, IIRC. Mind you, watch out for the 2A, it only syncs between 31 and 35 KHz or something like that. The II with roman numerals is the one to go for. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > (It's sorta like sed, but not. It's sorta like awk, but not. etc.) Guilty as charged. Perl is happily ugly, and happily derivative. --Larry Wall in <1992Aug26.184221.29627@netlabs.com> From optimus at canit.se Wed May 9 12:14:35 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:13 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2474.529T1750T10945559optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >> I have nothing against restorations, though obviously most >> people would rather find an original in perfect condition. The thing >I am not a collector in the normal sense of the world, I am an >electronics enthusiast who happens to like playing about with digital >systems (like minicomputer processors ;-)) >Therefore, I don't care too much about some of the things that collectors >normally care about, like original box, no damage to labels/legends, no >fading of the case colours and so on. >Going back to the original point, I see nothing wrong with reproduction >parts. I see nothing wrong with reproductions of complete machines >(provided the original manufacturer, or whoever now owns the copyright, >etc, is happy). But they should be described as such. To do otherwise is >plain dishonest. >I would be happy with a reproduction in most cases (I could still attack >it with a logic analyser), but since it would be worth less to a >collector than an 'original', I would expect to pay less for it. Again, I >wouldn't mind saving money by so doing. >I would be rather annoyed, though, if I paid 'top dollar' for a rare >machine and then found it was a reproduction. I think I would have been >cheated. I don't really understand why people care about originality. Isn't that mainly a metaphysical matter? Or am I being too post-modern? Really, asd long as the reproduction is identical in every sense, why would it matter when it was built? I wouldn't really mind replacing my 1992 Amiga 4000 with a freshly built replica. As long as it looked and behaved like my current A4000, but didn't consist of eight-year-old hardware, the new model would be superior. Likewise, why would it matter whether your issue of X-men was printed in 1996 instead of 1963? Is it the actual reading material or 30-year old paper you're looking for? OTOH, packaging is important to me, and so is the condition of the equipment I get. I find aesthetic pleasure in the design of the computer and its packaging. I do, however, not find aesthetic pleasure in the sight of old plastic. New plastic works just as well, and so do new circuits. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Php/fi: The syntax does a very good job on combining the drawbacks of C with the disadvantages of Perl, in general resulting in a completely unreadable sequence of seemingly random characters. Therefor it became quite popular among Unix-fossils. -- README for the HTML preprocessor "hsc" From optimus at canit.se Wed May 9 12:19:49 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:13 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: <200105082322.QAA13518@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <859.529T2450T10995943optimus@canit.se> Cameron Kaiser skrev: >> I believe there was a 9 pin analogue video standard that NEC used at one >> time. It wasn't EGA, though. >Yes, there was. stockholm's NEC monitor on its console is such a monitor. >It's a regular SVGA monitor in every sense except for the 9-pin connector >-- I have driven it up to 1024x768x256 without difficulty. Definitely not >EGA. :-) Now that we've mentioned 9-pin VGA, how about 15-pin VGA? I don't mean the D15HD type, but VGA on a plain D15. IMP monitors seem to favour that connector (they also often have a 9-pin digital input), and I once found a D15HD-D15 cable marked "D15 VGA", which works just fine with the IMPs. Does this sound familiar to anyone? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. There are two major products that come from Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. -- Jeremy S. Anderson From optimus at canit.se Wed May 9 12:22:05 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:13 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: <3AF881F1.4CA6C48E@woa.com.au> Message-ID: <786.529T250T11023451optimus@canit.se> Terry Collins skrev: >The NEC 9 pin monitors that went onto it were all multisync. The adapter >wasn't used onto the NEC video cards with the 9 pin outlet. The >multisync II were 640x480 16 colours max (I believe - I have two >floating around but only use for basic text screens). Would that be in digital mode? I can attest that we've run both bigger screen sizes and more colours on the II. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. I installed 7.6.1 on my Color Classic too. It has 6mb ram now, and no FPU yet. Things really slowed down when I installed the Appearance extention and control panel. But now the GUI is OS8ish! ;) That little creep is so cute, I'll probably leave instructions to have it made my urn. It'll hold my ashes, and still continue to function as a computer ;) iVan From optimus at canit.se Wed May 9 12:23:56 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:13 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1359.529T2800T11036245optimus@canit.se> Jeff Hellige skrev: >>The NEC 9 pin monitors that went onto it were all multisync. The adapter >>wasn't used onto the NEC video cards with the 9 pin outlet. The >>multisync II were 640x480 16 colours max (I believe - I have two >>floating around but only use for basic text screens). > The II would do unlimited colors in analog mode and up to 64 >colors in TTL mode. It's vertical freq range was 50 - 80 Hz with a >maximum resolution of 800 x 560. I believe the 2a was the first to >be able to reach 800 x 600, though the upgrade to the GS also was >able to. It's horizontal freq. range was 15.5 - 35 khz. How do you define resolution at the monitor level? I've always been able to get entirely different resolutions out of monitors, and why would they disagree? If it's an analogue signal, wouldn't the monitor just sweep along and project whatever is input? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Take a ride / Take me aside / Push me up to the life /?Down to Prag / We go far /?I guess we'll crash slowly into tar When I come home from the trench /?I telephone my friends / We take a car / We may go far / I guess we'll crash slowly into tar Strangers will come /?Hold on... And late at night / we go to clubs /?where no one else is dressed up / And when it's done / I must return /?I guess we'll crash slowly into tar Crash Slowly - Strasse, 1981 From optimus at canit.se Wed May 9 09:24:08 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:13 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: <20010508.210132.-413011.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <1372.529T400T9243897optimus@canit.se> Jeffrey l Kaneko skrev: >On Tue, 8 May 2001 19:27:55 -0400 Jeff Hellige >writes: >> Most of the early NEC Multisync series (original, II, GS, >> plus others) allowed various digital and analog modes to be switch >> selectable. They would also sync low enough to be used on various >> pre-VGA video adapters. I believe that the original Multsync >> included the additional switches to specify the color depth as >> described in previous posts here, while later models did not. I >> don't recall my GS having them. An excellent monitor >> btw...paperwhite grayscale. >One of *my* favorites is the Mitsubishi AUM-1371. Thompson also >sold rebadged versions of this model. Not only was this sucker >multi-synchronous, but it supported *composite* video as well >(worked terriffic with my SEGA Master Sytem game console). OTOH, the Master System had RGB output as well on the DIN-8 "AV OUT". Or at least it did in Europe. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. When cherry tree blooms, people go and walk there, eat dumpling, bring sake and talk each other such things as "A superb view!" and "Full of spring here", and they become very happily and cheerful. But this is a lie. People gather below cherry trees and get drunk, vomit, fight, which are happening since the old days of Edo period. From long time ago. THE FULL OF CHERRY BOOLMS, CHAPTER 1 From chomko at greenbelt.com Wed May 9 14:09:03 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:13 2005 Subject: FW: Rolm Rugged Novas References: <1147820015391635460@1bigred.com> Message-ID: <3AF995CF.9DC3593B@greenbelt.com> acorda@1bigred.com wrote: > Does anyone else on the list have a Rolm besides me? I wonder > how many are actually in private hands. I have a 1602 that I > picked up at the Manassas Va. hamfest a couple of years ago. > The fellow that sold it to me claimed that he bought 2 of 'em > at a NASA auction, which is believable because it has a couple > of tags that proclaim it to be part of a "Spacecraft Simulator". > Do you know if it came from the Goddard Spacefilght Center? I know of a spacecraft simulator (SOCC) that was flown around on board a modified Boeing jet. I know some folks that worked on THAT system. Perhaps your box is one of those? Eric > > I haven't yet had time to play with it, but I hope to do so sometime > this summer. Attaching anything to the mil-spec connectors is going > to require a lot of creativity :) > > -al- > acorda@1bigred.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Bill Pechter [mailto:pechter@bg-tc-ppp1375.monmouth.com] > > Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 5:30 PM > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: Rolm Rugged Novas > > > > > > > G'day DCC/DG lovers - > > > > > > I have updated the SimuLogics site with some DCC, Rolm and DG/One info. > > > (Its a start, anyway.) > > > > > > www.SimuLogics.com/nostalgia/rolm/rolm.htm > > > > I know there's lots of those Rolms still in use by the military. > > At least they were everywhere when I field serviced Vax systems at Fort > > Monmouth (a hotbed of Army software development) in the mid '80's. > > > > Bill From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed May 9 14:25:16 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:13 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: <1359.529T2800T11036245optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <01May9.153601edt.119046@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> On Wednesday, May 9, 2001, at 01:23 PM, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> The II would do unlimited colors in analog mode and up to 64 >> colors in TTL mode. It's vertical freq range was 50 - 80 Hz with a >> maximum resolution of 800 x 560. I believe the 2a was the first to >> be able to reach 800 x 600, though the upgrade to the GS also was >> able to. It's horizontal freq. range was 15.5 - 35 khz. > > How do you define resolution at the monitor level? I've always been > able to > get entirely different resolutions out of monitors, and why would they > disagree? If it's an analogue signal, wouldn't the monitor just sweep > along > and project whatever is input? The specs I referenced above are those put out by NEC for that monitor. It's doubtful that the II would do be able to do 800 x 600 in it's vertical freq. range, which is why NEC lists it as a max. resolution of 800 x 560. I believe at that resolution they list it at a vert. freq. of 56 Hz. Even if it could take the vertical freq. low enough to get to 800 x 600 I wouldn't want to have to look at it. 56 Hz will flicker enough as it is. Jeff From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed May 9 14:27:40 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:13 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: <1157.529T1900T10825561optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <01May9.153817edt.119042@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> On Wednesday, May 9, 2001, at 01:02 PM, Iggy Drougge wrote: > The 3D (which AFAIK is the last Multisync to sync down to 15KHz) has > got the > depth selector, so did the II, IIRC. > Mind you, watch out for the 2A, it only syncs between 31 and 35 KHz or > something like that. The II with roman numerals is the one to go for. A very important point for those of us that like Amiga's, unless you have an A3000 or a scan doubler installed on one of the other models. The 2A and newer NEC's tend to be more plain vanilla VGA/SVGA monitors. Jeff From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed May 9 14:29:06 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:13 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: <1359.529T2800T11036245optimus@canit.se> References: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010509122242.019a9d88@208.226.86.10> >How do you define resolution at the monitor level? I've always been able to >get entirely different resolutions out of monitors, and why would they >disagree? If it's an analogue signal, wouldn't the monitor just sweep along >and project whatever is input? Color monitors have a color mask, and that color mask has a 'dot pitch' which defines where you can display pixels. If you attempt to display more pixels on a line than there are holes in the mask, then you will get banding artifacts. Next there is frequency response. The amplifiers that connect to the color guns have something called a 'slew rate' which is the rate at which they can change their output color. If you put to many pixels side by side then you will start seeing color degradation due to the fact that the amplifier can't get to the new color fast enough. If you display several columns of vertical white lines on a black background you will see (in cheaper monitors) that the leading edge of the while line is not white, its gray. And as you increase the number of lines the white lines will get grayer and eventually you will have just a gray screen. You "can" drive monitors all over the map, eventually you will destroy them if you allow the horizontal output driver to over heat. However, getting an acceptable signal out of one is more constrained. --Chuck From vance at ikickass.org Wed May 9 14:32:08 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Vance Dereksen) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:13 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: <859.529T2450T10995943optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: I believe that this is Macintosh (DB15) <----> PC (HD15) Peace... Sridhar On 9 May 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Cameron Kaiser skrev: > > >> I believe there was a 9 pin analogue video standard that NEC used at one > >> time. It wasn't EGA, though. > > >Yes, there was. stockholm's NEC monitor on its console is such a monitor. > >It's a regular SVGA monitor in every sense except for the 9-pin connector > >-- I have driven it up to 1024x768x256 without difficulty. Definitely not > >EGA. :-) > > Now that we've mentioned 9-pin VGA, how about 15-pin VGA? > I don't mean the D15HD type, but VGA on a plain D15. IMP monitors seem to > favour that connector (they also often have a 9-pin digital input), and I once > found a D15HD-D15 cable marked "D15 VGA", which works just fine with the IMPs. > Does this sound familiar to anyone? > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > There are two major products that come from Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. > We don't believe this to be a coincidence. > -- Jeremy S. Anderson > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 9 14:33:22 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:13 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: <01May9.153601edt.119046@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 May 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > monitor. It's doubtful that the II would do be able to do 800 x 600 in > it's vertical freq. range, which is why NEC lists it as a max. > resolution of 800 x 560. I believe at that resolution they list it at a > vert. freq. of 56 Hz. Even if it could take the vertical freq. low > enough to get to 800 x 600 I wouldn't want to have to look at it. 56 Hz > will flicker enough as it is. Once, in the 80's I tried to use one at 800 x 600. (Brand new AST 286 with Everex VGA that had just come out, running Ventura) Keep epileptics away from THAT flicker. From M.Tekeste at Bradford.ac.uk Wed May 9 14:34:14 2001 From: M.Tekeste at Bradford.ac.uk (M.Tekeste@Bradford.ac.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:13 2005 Subject: Here is my intiat program for 82C51 (UART) but it is not working. So need help Message-ID: <989436854.3af99bb605560@helium.cen.brad.ac.uk> #include #include #include /* Type Definitions */ typedef unsigned char UBYTE; /* Old habbit... */ /* Serial Port Definitions */ #define STATUS 0x308 /* Status Base Address */ #define CONTROL 0x300 /* Control Base Address */ #define TXREG 0x30C /* Transmit Base Address */ #define RXREG 0x304 /* Receive Base Address */ #define TRUE 1 /* Function Prototypes */ void InitUSART(void); /* Initialize USART */ void TxData(UBYTE); /* Transmit Data */ UBYTE RxData(void); /* Receive Data */ /* InitUSART() - Initialize USART to 153600, 8 Data Bits, No Parity, 1 Stop Bit */ void InitUSART(void) { outp(CONTROL, 0x00); outp(CONTROL, 0x00); outp(CONTROL, 0x00); outp(CONTROL, 0x40); // Reset UART outp(CONTROL, 0x4E); // Stop, no parity, 8-bit, %16 baud outp(CONTROL, 0x05); // UART now ready } /* TxData() - Send Data to Serial Port Entry: data = Data to transmit */ void TxData(UBYTE data) { UBYTE x; /* Check for Tx Buffer Empty */ do { x = inp(STATUS); x &= 0x01; } while(x == 0); outp(TXREG, data); /* Send Data */ } /* RxData() - Receive Data from the Serial Port Exit: data = Rx Data byte */ UBYTE RxData(void) { UBYTE x; UBYTE data = 0; while(TRUE) /* Check for Rx Data */ { x = inp(STATUS); x &= 0x02; if(x == 0x02) { data = inp(RXREG); /* Get Data */ break; } /* Optional. Aborts if keypress */ if(kbhit()) /* Abort if Keypress */ { getch(); printf("\n"); break; } } return(data); } void main(void) { UBYTE DSR; InitUSART(); while(TRUE) putch(RxData()); } From chomko at greenbelt.com Wed May 9 15:01:55 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:13 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog References: <1157.529T1900T10825561optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3AF9A233.C53539AB@greenbelt.com> Iggy Drougge wrote: > Jeff Hellige skrev: > > >>The fact that NEC provided an adapter to go between its monitor and > >>the typical > >>VGA card suggests that this is not an unusual application for their > >>products. > > > Most of the early NEC Multisync series (original, II, GS, > >plus others) allowed various digital and analog modes to be switch > >selectable. They would also sync low enough to be used on various > >pre-VGA video adapters. I believe that the original Multsync > >included the additional switches to specify the color depth as > >described in previous posts here, while later models did not. I > >don't recall my GS having them. An excellent monitor > >btw...paperwhite grayscale. > > The 3D (which AFAIK is the last Multisync to sync down to 15KHz) has got the > depth selector, so did the II, IIRC. > Mind you, watch out for the 2A, it only syncs between 31 and 35 KHz or > something like that. The II with roman numerals is the one to go for. > Yes, the Multisync 2A was PC compatible but would not work on Macs. Whereas, the Multisync II (and regular Multisync) would work on both Macs and PCs. IMO, any vintage collector would go along way to have at least one of these beasts. I have at least three in various states of "working." Being somwhat smallish (13" or IBM 14"), they really don't have a market any longer. But there was a time I used to sell the heck out of them right up until a couple of years ago! Eric P.S. I made a group of Mac 15-pin to Multisync 9-pin cables for a school about 5 years ago. When the computer teacher found out (I told her), that Macs didn't need to have Apple monitors and would work fine with Multisyncs I got the job of making the cables. I'm pretty sure I still have many feet of wire with 9-pin and 15-pin connectors, hoods, etc. lying around someplace. > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > > (It's sorta like sed, but not. It's sorta like awk, but not. etc.) > Guilty as charged. Perl is happily ugly, and happily derivative. > --Larry Wall in <1992Aug26.184221.29627@netlabs.com> From foo at siconic.com Wed May 9 14:16:51 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:13 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: <2474.529T1750T10945559optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 9 May 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Really, asd long as the reproduction is identical in every sense, why > would it matter when it was built? I wouldn't really mind replacing my > 1992 Amiga 4000 with a freshly built replica. As long as it looked and > behaved like my current A4000, but didn't consist of eight-year-old > hardware, the new model would be superior. Likewise, why would it > matter whether your issue of X-men was printed in 1996 instead of > 1963? Is it the actual reading material or 30-year old paper you're > looking for? OTOH, packaging is important to me, and so is the > condition of the equipment I get. I find aesthetic pleasure in the > design of the computer and its packaging. I do, however, not find > aesthetic pleasure in the sight of old plastic. New plastic works just > as well, and so do new circuits. How would you feel about a reproduction of a famous painting, like say the "Mona Lisa"? Same thing with classic computers. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From acorda at 1bigred.com Wed May 9 15:15:37 2001 From: acorda at 1bigred.com (acorda@1bigred.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:13 2005 Subject: FW: Rolm Rugged Novas Message-ID: <269622001539201537675@1bigred.com> It might very well be possible, considering the location of the hamfest, and the fact that I've heard that NASA/Goddard has periodic auctions (although I've yet to find out when and where they are). The unit seems to have been mounted in a 19" rack, since it has a rack faceplate attached with some angle iron... the faceplate has a hole cut in it to fit the front panel of the 1602...definitely not a military configuration. -al- acorda@1bigred.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Eric Chomko [mailto:chomko@greenbelt.com] > Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 3:09 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: FW: Rolm Rugged Novas > > > acorda@1bigred.com wrote: > > > Does anyone else on the list have a Rolm besides me? I wonder > > how many are actually in private hands. I have a 1602 that I > > picked up at the Manassas Va. hamfest a couple of years ago. > > The fellow that sold it to me claimed that he bought 2 of 'em > > at a NASA auction, which is believable because it has a couple > > of tags that proclaim it to be part of a "Spacecraft Simulator". > > > > Do you know if it came from the Goddard Spacefilght Center? > I know of a spacecraft simulator (SOCC) that was flown around > on board a modified Boeing jet. I know some folks that worked > on THAT system. Perhaps your box is one of those? > > Eric > <...Text deleted for brevity...> From ip500 at home.com Wed May 9 15:47:42 2001 From: ip500 at home.com (ip500) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:13 2005 Subject: FW: Rolm Rugged Novas References: <269622001539201537675@1bigred.com> Message-ID: <3AF9ACEE.8D236959@home.com> Ask and yea shall receive. URL for NASA surplus is below. Goddard and Huntsville seem to be the most active. http://sales.gsfc.nasa.gov/ Regards, Craig acorda@1bigred.com wrote: > > It might very well be possible, considering the location of > the hamfest, and the fact that I've heard that NASA/Goddard > has periodic auctions (although I've yet to find out when > and where they are). The unit seems to have been mounted in > a 19" rack, since it has a rack faceplate attached with some > angle iron... the faceplate has a hole cut in it to fit the > front panel of the 1602...definitely not a military configuration. > > -al- > acorda@1bigred.com > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Eric Chomko [mailto:chomko@greenbelt.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 3:09 PM > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: FW: Rolm Rugged Novas > > > > > > acorda@1bigred.com wrote: > > > > > Does anyone else on the list have a Rolm besides me? I wonder > > > how many are actually in private hands. I have a 1602 that I > > > picked up at the Manassas Va. hamfest a couple of years ago. > > > The fellow that sold it to me claimed that he bought 2 of 'em > > > at a NASA auction, which is believable because it has a couple > > > of tags that proclaim it to be part of a "Spacecraft Simulator". > > > > > > > Do you know if it came from the Goddard Spacefilght Center? > > I know of a spacecraft simulator (SOCC) that was flown around > > on board a modified Boeing jet. I know some folks that worked > > on THAT system. Perhaps your box is one of those? > > > > Eric > > > > <...Text deleted for brevity...> > > > From hans at Huebner.ORG Wed May 9 15:55:45 2001 From: hans at Huebner.ORG (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hans_H=FCbner?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:13 2005 Subject: 9-track questions Message-ID: Hello again, I have two questions regarding 9-track drives: Is the position and type of the BOT mark standardized? I have a few tapes without BOT marker which are refused by my CDC transport, so I guess I'll have to add my own BOT marker. Can one Pertec controller handle multiple tape transports? How are the transports supposed to be connected? Or do I need multiple Pertec controllers if I want to have more than one transport on one machine. Thanks in advance, Hans -- finger hans@huebner.org for details From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed May 9 15:54:45 2001 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:13 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: <703.529T2500T2126393optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <20010509205445.69959.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com> --- Iggy Drougge wrote: > Tony Duell skrev: > > >> The fact that NEC provided an adapter... > > >I believe there was a 9 pin analogue video standard... > > Not only NEC, in fact. Eizo used it as well, and a while ago, I found a 1996 > VGA monitor which used the same 9-pin input. I wouldn't be surprised if > Commodore used it in some of their 19XX series monitors as well. My A3000/1950 combo came with such an adapter (and a 23-pin-to-HD-15 adapter as well). The 9-to-15 pin unit works on other vendors' stuff, too. -ethan ===== Visit "The Seventh Continent" http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 9 13:56:15 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:13 2005 Subject: I blew up my IIgs! In-Reply-To: <200105090011.RAA13702@stockholm.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at May 8, 1 05:11:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1611 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010509/a07a68cb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 9 13:47:18 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:13 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On Topic) In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at May 8, 1 04:03:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1890 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010509/4c36d63a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 9 14:29:43 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:13 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On Topic) In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at May 8, 1 11:50:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1076 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010509/6e4d4ff7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 9 14:26:02 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:13 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: <703.529T2500T2126393optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at May 9, 1 03:32:50 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 787 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010509/8c2375a2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 9 14:04:44 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:13 2005 Subject: parts needed In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at May 8, 1 06:14:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1924 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010509/134f0dc6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 9 14:17:26 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:13 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: <1735.529T2950T1986875optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at May 9, 1 03:18:59 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2993 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010509/98a52670/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 9 16:50:54 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:13 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: <2474.529T1750T10945559optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at May 9, 1 06:14:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2549 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010509/3783ff81/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 9 17:05:53 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:13 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: <1359.529T2800T11036245optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at May 9, 1 06:23:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1338 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010509/9d5157ac/attachment.ksh From vaxman at qwest.net Wed May 9 17:36:24 2001 From: vaxman at qwest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:13 2005 Subject: 9-track questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The BOT marker needs to be within a certain distance of the start of the tape, but the distance is measured in feet. Basically, you need to have enough leader to wrap around the takeup reel, load the vacuum columns (if required), then move the tape forward until it is found. It is best to have some extra at the beginning in case the leader is damaged and has to be cut off... Which edge and side of the tape is VERY important. That is what makes the BOT different from the EOT (different edges, same side IIRC), and the length is about 1 inch (3 cm) I don't think the length is real critical. I would suggest making it about the same as another tape. If you need more details, I have a junk tape I could unwind to measure for you... clint On Wed, 9 May 2001, [ISO-8859-1] Hans Hübner wrote: > Hello again, > > I have two questions regarding 9-track drives: > > Is the position and type of the BOT mark standardized? I have a few tapes > without BOT marker which are refused by my CDC transport, so I guess I'll > have to add my own BOT marker. > > Can one Pertec controller handle multiple tape transports? How are the > transports supposed to be connected? Or do I need multiple Pertec controllers > if I want to have more than one transport on one machine. > > Thanks in advance, > Hans > > -- > finger hans@huebner.org for details > > > From mranalog at home.com Wed May 9 18:11:01 2001 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:13 2005 Subject: Mechanical analog computer history Message-ID: <3AF9CE85.55F966AC@home.com> Hi all, In my continuing effort to keep the discussion from becoming too digital, I want to point out a wonderful article I just found. This article cover the history of mechanical analog computers in general and specifically the mechanical analog fire control computers developed by the Ford Instruments Company from it's founding in 1915 up to the dawn of electronic analog computing in the 1940s. Beware the PDF is 2.6 MB. "The Mechanical Analog Computers of Hannibal Ford and William Newell" by A.Ben Clymer, IEEE Annals of the History of Computing, Vol 15, No. 2, 1993 http://web.mit.edu/STS.035/www/PDFs/Newell.pdf And my Ford Instruments page is at: http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog/fordsperry.htm Regards, --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ========================================= From bkr at WildHareComputers.com Wed May 9 19:42:39 2001 From: bkr at WildHareComputers.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:13 2005 Subject: Mechanical analog computer history...Heathkit References: <3AF9CE85.55F966AC@home.com> Message-ID: <00bf01c0d8ea$1e5a5fc0$0100a8c0@dellhare> ...and who has information on that wonderfully-nostalgic ol' Heathkit analog computer that existed in the '60s?? Bruce bkr@WildHareComputers.com -or- bkr@SimuLogics.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Coward" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 5:11 PM Subject: Mechanical analog computer history > Hi all, > In my continuing effort to keep the discussion from > becoming too digital, I want to point out a wonderful > article I just found. This article cover the history > of mechanical analog computers in general and > specifically the mechanical analog fire control > computers developed by the Ford Instruments Company > from it's founding in 1915 up to the dawn of electronic > analog computing in the 1940s. > > Beware the PDF is 2.6 MB. > > "The Mechanical Analog Computers of Hannibal Ford and William Newell" > by A.Ben Clymer, IEEE Annals of the History of Computing, Vol 15, > No. 2, 1993 > http://web.mit.edu/STS.035/www/PDFs/Newell.pdf > > And my Ford Instruments page is at: > http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog/fordsperry.htm > > Regards, > --Doug > ========================================= > Doug Coward > @ home in Poulsbo, WA > > Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center > http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog > ========================================= From pechter at bg-tc-ppp10.monmouth.com Wed May 9 18:54:17 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp10.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:13 2005 Subject: 9-track questions In-Reply-To: from =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hans_H=FCbner?= at "May 9, 2001 10:55:45 pm" Message-ID: <200105092354.f49NsKd15920@bg-tc-ppp10.monmouth.com> > Hello again, > > I have two questions regarding 9-track drives: > > Is the position and type of the BOT mark standardized? I have a few tapes > without BOT marker which are refused by my CDC transport, so I guess I'll > have to add my own BOT marker. > > Can one Pertec controller handle multiple tape transports? How are the > transports supposed to be connected? Or do I need multiple Pertec controllers > if I want to have more than one transport on one machine. > > Thanks in advance, > Hans > > -- > finger hans@huebner.org for details I may be 100% wrong, however BOT (IIRC) was on the outer edge of the tape reel (the side away from the tape transport baseplate -- about 20 feet in. EOT was on the inner edge against the drive baseplate about 20 or so feet from the end. Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From ip500 at home.com Wed May 9 19:36:45 2001 From: ip500 at home.com (ip500) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:13 2005 Subject: Mechanical analog computer history...Heathkit References: <3AF9CE85.55F966AC@home.com> <00bf01c0d8ea$1e5a5fc0$0100a8c0@dellhare> Message-ID: <3AF9E29D.F3E4E135@home.com> Actually there were a couple of Heath [electronic] Analog Computers. The well known EC-1 and a MUCH larger / somewhat earlier computer [The Heath ANALOG COMPUTER model ES-400 circa 1957] It sold for $995.00!!! back then. Sadly, I don't have either system but I do have the manuals for both of them. I'm in the process of getting them copied [big deal .. the early one is a 7 volume set] and will probably be selling the originals on eBay soon. I'll try to get a small portion of the data up on a website and plan to sell the copied manual sets as well. A pix of the earlier Heath is up on my site at: http://members.home.net/ip500/analogfront.JPG Regards, Craig Bruce Ray wrote: > > ...and who has information on that wonderfully-nostalgic ol' Heathkit analog > computer that existed in the '60s?? > > Bruce > bkr@WildHareComputers.com > -or- > bkr@SimuLogics.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Doug Coward" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 5:11 PM > Subject: Mechanical analog computer history > > > Hi all, > > In my continuing effort to keep the discussion from > > becoming too digital, I want to point out a wonderful > > article I just found. This article cover the history > > of mechanical analog computers in general and > > specifically the mechanical analog fire control > > computers developed by the Ford Instruments Company > > from it's founding in 1915 up to the dawn of electronic > > analog computing in the 1940s. > > > > Beware the PDF is 2.6 MB. > > > > "The Mechanical Analog Computers of Hannibal Ford and William Newell" > > by A.Ben Clymer, IEEE Annals of the History of Computing, Vol 15, > > No. 2, 1993 > > http://web.mit.edu/STS.035/www/PDFs/Newell.pdf > > > > And my Ford Instruments page is at: > > http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog/fordsperry.htm > > > > Regards, > > --Doug > > ========================================= > > Doug Coward > > @ home in Poulsbo, WA > > > > Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center > > http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog > > ========================================= From cfandt at netsync.net Wed May 9 21:07:30 2001 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:13 2005 Subject: Fw: percom board In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.1.20010509220122.00afc410@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 08:49 AM 5/9/01 -0400, Rich Beaudry said something like: >Hello all, > >I was bidding on a Percom S-100 cassette interface on a nameless auction >site :-), and I was contacted by someone who wanted to know what my interest >in the board was. I replied, and as it turns out, the "someone" was the >daughter of Percom's founder! -- snip -- That was an interesting read Rich. Thank you for posting it. It is a bit touching given Margo's closeness to the whole history of Percom, but more importantly, gives a strong message of what it takes and what it's like to pursue and achieve one's dream. Hard work, motivation and the brains to tap the correct opportunity. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From chomko at greenbelt.com Wed May 9 22:24:14 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: Fw: percom board References: <4.1.20010509220122.00afc410@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <3AFA09DD.772884D4@greenbelt.com> Yes, it was a touching story. I do remeber Percom, as they seemed to be committed to both S-100 and SS-50 busses. I have a Percom prototype board if I not mistaken. I'll have to dig up the particulars. Eric Christian Fandt wrote: > Upon the date 08:49 AM 5/9/01 -0400, Rich Beaudry said something like: > >Hello all, > > > >I was bidding on a Percom S-100 cassette interface on a nameless auction > >site :-), and I was contacted by someone who wanted to know what my interest > >in the board was. I replied, and as it turns out, the "someone" was the > >daughter of Percom's founder! > -- snip -- > > That was an interesting read Rich. Thank you for posting it. It is a bit > touching given Margo's closeness to the whole history of Percom, but more > importantly, gives a strong message of what it takes and what it's like to > pursue and achieve one's dream. Hard work, motivation and the brains to tap > the correct opportunity. > > Regards, Chris > -- -- > Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian > Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net > Member of Antique Wireless Association > URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From jpl15 at panix.com Wed May 9 22:30:40 2001 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: Mechanical analog computer history...Heathkit In-Reply-To: <3AF9E29D.F3E4E135@home.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 May 2001, ip500 wrote: > Actually there were a couple of Heath [electronic] Analog Computers. > The well known EC-1 and a MUCH larger / somewhat earlier computer [The > Heath ANALOG COMPUTER model ES-400 circa 1957] It sold for $995.00!!! > back then. Sadly, I don't have either system but I do have the manuals > for both of them. I'm in the process of getting them copied [big deal .. > the early one is a 7 volume set] and will probably be selling the > originals on eBay soon. I'll try to get a small portion of the data up > on a website and plan to sell the copied manual sets as well. There are two examples of the larger Heath analogue machine remaning that I know of. One is in the Computer Museum at Moffet Feild, and the other, which I was priviledged to have rescued, has since been dispatched to a truly obsessive private collector in Munich, Germany, who has vowed a Holy Oath to get it working and keep it working. ;} "Ja, ja, someday, huh?" ;} Instead of squandering the original manuals on [that auction site], why not consider making your archival copies and then sending the original documentation... which is worthless and priceless at the same time, seeing as how only two machines exist.. to a person who could then complete the installation of a truly irreplaceable computing artefact? I gave the computer museum copies of the basic docs, but their machine is static and most likely will never be put into service. The one in Germany however, is meant to live and compute again. (hint hint hint) Just a Thought... BTW: These assembly and Operation Mauals are available from Heathkit currently, you just have to know the *exact* part number of the books you want, and they are about USD$40 each.... very expensive for a whole set. Plus, you get copies of most of them... not originals with the nice cardboard Heatkit cover. But, then again... what would you use them for?? > > A pix of the earlier Heath is up on my site at: > http://members.home.net/ip500/analogfront.JPG I have about 50 color shots of the machine in various moods and places, some from VCF2, where I displayed it for all to see and touch. I should scan them and archive them. Hmmm... another Project. Cheers John From chomko at greenbelt.com Wed May 9 22:43:00 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On References: Message-ID: <3AFA0E44.6755C66@greenbelt.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > I don't really understand why people care about originality. Isn't that mainly > > a metaphysical matter? Or am I being too post-modern? > > It depends on what you mean by 'originality'. > > Suppose you took the PDP8/e CPU and built an exact copy using modern TTL > chips, etc (I'll neglect for the moment that Compaq's lawyers would > probably object to this :-)). To me, that would be as useful, and as > interesting as the oriignal PDP8/e that's on my desk. I could get the > tech manuals off the shelf, clip the logicdart onto various IC pins, run > programs, and see what happened. > Interesting, but would you pay the same $$$ as you would a circa 1968 unit? A remake is a remake. Coins have done several things similar. But a die that is cut in te 1990s for a similar coin as a 1930s half dollar is NOT that same as the actual 1930s coin. Vintage implies "made then, not now", even if we could make the exact replica now its not the same as the one made then. > > Now, suppose you built a PDP8/e compatible CPU in an FPGA. That's a > perfectly reasonable thing to do, but to me it would not be as 'useful' > or 'interesting' as the real PDP8/e or a chipwise clone of it. I couldn't > do the sort of things that I wanted to do to it. Other people -- those > that are primarily software hackers, presumably could use a > PDP8/e-in-an-FPGA instead of the real PDP8/e. > > > Really, asd long as the reproduction is identical in every sense, why would it > > matter when it was built? I wouldn't really mind replacing my 1992 Amiga 4000 > > with a freshly built replica. As long as it looked and behaved like my current > > A4000, but didn't consist of eight-year-old hardware, the new model would be > > superior. > > Why? Old chips (meaning those made in the last 30 years or so) seem to be > pretty reliable most of the time... > That's not the point either. Its about what 'circa' means. This concept seems so easy for me being both as coin and a sports card collector. Topps makes many an old remake of cards. But there IS a difference, and nobody would NEVER confuse an original with a remake. Computers are no different. Does that mean that a 1999 manufactured PDP-11 wouldn't have value? Of course not! But no one should even consider that a 1970s made PDP-11 should ever be confused with a 1990s replica. Its the nature of collecting. > > > Likewise, why would it matter whether your issue of X-men was printed in 1996 > > instead of 1963? Is it the actual reading material or 30-year old paper you're > > looking for? > > True, which is why I spend far too much money on Lindsay Publications > reprints of old books on radio, electical stuff, engineering, etc. The > _information_ is what matters to me. > But issue counts (mintage) do matter. You guys are blowing smoke if you think that a replica could equal in stature (forget value, as that really is not the point) an original. > > But, I would not be happy paying a high price for a 'rare book' and then > finding out it was a Lindsay reprint that is still 'in print'. Because I > have then not got what I paid for. > Okay, looks like some progress here. > > > OTOH, packaging is important to me, and so is the condition of the equipment I > > get. I find aesthetic pleasure in the design of the computer and its > > I get my 'aesthetic pleasure' at a somewhat lower level :-). Looking at > the _beautiful_ electronic designs in some of these old machines. And to > do that doesn't depend on a perfect case. > > Again, obviously I want the machine to be complete enough to work. And it > helps if there are no big holes in the case, or cracks in the plastic, > and so on. But I wouldn't automatically ignore a machine because it looks > well-worn. > Condition IS important. And that is another inherent if not decepitive perk for a replica. Its newer therefore in better condition. Better condition implies worth more. But is that the same for replicas? A worn replica would never have any extra value. But a worn original actually might. Never should a replica be passed off as an original. Eric > > -tony From chomko at greenbelt.com Wed May 9 22:50:08 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: FW: Rolm Rugged Novas References: <269622001539201537675@1bigred.com> Message-ID: <3AFA0FF0.4776CDB0@greenbelt.com> acorda@1bigred.com wrote: > It might very well be possible, considering the location of > the hamfest, and the fact that I've heard that NASA/Goddard > has periodic auctions (although I've yet to find out when I live and breathe their auctions. Been doing them for about 8 years now. > > and where they are). The unit seems to have been mounted in > a 19" rack, since it has a rack faceplate attached with some > angle iron... the faceplate has a hole cut in it to fit the > front panel of the 1602...definitely not a military configuration. > I's be looking for the NASA or GSFC sticker. If it is an old SOCC box, I bet I could get code for it! > > -al- > acorda@1bigred.com > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Eric Chomko [mailto:chomko@greenbelt.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 3:09 PM > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: FW: Rolm Rugged Novas > > > > > > acorda@1bigred.com wrote: > > > > > Does anyone else on the list have a Rolm besides me? I wonder > > > how many are actually in private hands. I have a 1602 that I > > > picked up at the Manassas Va. hamfest a couple of years ago. > > > The fellow that sold it to me claimed that he bought 2 of 'em > > > at a NASA auction, which is believable because it has a couple > > > of tags that proclaim it to be part of a "Spacecraft Simulator". > > > > > > > Do you know if it came from the Goddard Spacefilght Center? > > I know of a spacecraft simulator (SOCC) that was flown around > > on board a modified Boeing jet. I know some folks that worked > > on THAT system. Perhaps your box is one of those? > > > > Eric > > > > <...Text deleted for brevity...> > > > From bkr at WildHareComputers.com Wed May 9 23:54:07 2001 From: bkr at WildHareComputers.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: Mechanical analog computer history...Heathkit EC1 References: <3AF9CE85.55F966AC@home.com> <00bf01c0d8ea$1e5a5fc0$0100a8c0@dellhare> <3AF9E29D.F3E4E135@home.com> Message-ID: <00ee01c0d90d$3f7b2090$0100a8c0@dellhare> It was the EC-1 that I was thinking of, and was hundreds of dollars in the '60s as I recall. Any cover-page art scanned for that to take me back a few decades..? Bruce bkr@WildHareComputers.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "ip500" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 6:36 PM Subject: Re: Mechanical analog computer history...Heathkit > Actually there were a couple of Heath [electronic] Analog Computers. > The well known EC-1 and a MUCH larger / somewhat earlier computer [The > Heath ANALOG COMPUTER model ES-400 circa 1957] It sold for $995.00!!! > back then. Sadly, I don't have either system but I do have the manuals > for both of them. I'm in the process of getting them copied [big deal .. > the early one is a 7 volume set] and will probably be selling the > originals on eBay soon. I'll try to get a small portion of the data up > on a website and plan to sell the copied manual sets as well. > > A pix of the earlier Heath is up on my site at: > http://members.home.net/ip500/analogfront.JPG > Regards, Craig > > Bruce Ray wrote: > > > > ...and who has information on that wonderfully-nostalgic ol' Heathkit analog > > computer that existed in the '60s?? > > > > Bruce > > bkr@WildHareComputers.com > > -or- > > bkr@SimuLogics.com > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Doug Coward" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 5:11 PM > > Subject: Mechanical analog computer history > > > > > Hi all, > > > In my continuing effort to keep the discussion from > > > becoming too digital, I want to point out a wonderful > > > article I just found. This article cover the history > > > of mechanical analog computers in general and > > > specifically the mechanical analog fire control > > > computers developed by the Ford Instruments Company > > > from it's founding in 1915 up to the dawn of electronic > > > analog computing in the 1940s. > > > > > > Beware the PDF is 2.6 MB. > > > > > > "The Mechanical Analog Computers of Hannibal Ford and William Newell" > > > by A.Ben Clymer, IEEE Annals of the History of Computing, Vol 15, > > > No. 2, 1993 > > > http://web.mit.edu/STS.035/www/PDFs/Newell.pdf > > > > > > And my Ford Instruments page is at: > > > http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog/fordsperry.htm > > > > > > Regards, > > > --Doug > > > ========================================= > > > Doug Coward > > > @ home in Poulsbo, WA > > > > > > Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center > > > http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog > > > ========================================= From bkr at WildHareComputers.com Thu May 10 00:47:46 2001 From: bkr at WildHareComputers.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: Mechanical analog computer history...Heathkit References: Message-ID: <011601c0d914$bdf99e40$0100a8c0@dellhare> I'll ask, John; what -is- the *exact* Heathkit part number for the EC-1 computer assembly and user manuals? Bruce ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Lawson" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 9:30 PM Subject: Re: Mechanical analog computer history...Heathkit > > > On Wed, 9 May 2001, ip500 wrote: > > > Actually there were a couple of Heath [electronic] Analog Computers. > > The well known EC-1 and a MUCH larger / somewhat earlier computer [The > > Heath ANALOG COMPUTER model ES-400 circa 1957] It sold for $995.00!!! > > back then. Sadly, I don't have either system but I do have the manuals > > for both of them. I'm in the process of getting them copied [big deal .. > > the early one is a 7 volume set] and will probably be selling the > > originals on eBay soon. I'll try to get a small portion of the data up > > on a website and plan to sell the copied manual sets as well. > > There are two examples of the larger Heath analogue machine remaning > that I know of. One is in the Computer Museum at Moffet Feild, and the > other, which I was priviledged to have rescued, has since been dispatched > to a truly obsessive private collector in Munich, Germany, who has vowed a > Holy Oath to get it working and keep it working. > > ;} "Ja, ja, someday, huh?" ;} > > Instead of squandering the original manuals on [that auction site], why > not consider making your archival copies and then sending the original > documentation... which is worthless and priceless at the same time, > seeing as how only two machines exist.. to a person who could then > complete the installation of a truly irreplaceable computing artefact? I > gave the computer museum copies of the basic docs, but their machine is > static and most likely will never be put into service. The one in Germany > however, is meant to live and compute again. (hint hint hint) > > Just a Thought... > > BTW: These assembly and Operation Mauals are available from Heathkit > currently, you just have to know the *exact* part number of the books you > want, and they are about USD$40 each.... very expensive for a whole set. > Plus, you get copies of most of them... not originals with the nice > cardboard Heatkit cover. > > But, then again... what would you use them for?? > > > > > > > A pix of the earlier Heath is up on my site at: > > http://members.home.net/ip500/analogfront.JPG > > I have about 50 color shots of the machine in various moods and places, > some from VCF2, where I displayed it for all to see and touch. I should > scan them and archive them. Hmmm... another Project. > > > > > Cheers > > John > From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Wed May 9 23:45:28 2001 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog Message-ID: <20010509.234528.-468553.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On 9 May 2001 15:24:8 +0100 "Iggy Drougge" writes: > OTOH, the Master System had RGB output as well on the DIN-8 "AV > OUT". Or at least it did in Europe. I never knew that. I always assumed the thing could only do composite. Even that though, looked *teriffic* on a Diamond Scan! Jeff ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From jpl15 at panix.com Thu May 10 00:05:34 2001 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: Mechanical analog computer history...Heathkit In-Reply-To: <011601c0d914$bdf99e40$0100a8c0@dellhare> Message-ID: From jpl15 at panix.com Thu May 10 00:05:28 2001 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: Mechanical analog computer history...Heathkit In-Reply-To: <011601c0d914$bdf99e40$0100a8c0@dellhare> Message-ID: From jpl15 at panix.com Thu May 10 00:21:09 2001 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: Mechanical analog computer history...Heathkit In-Reply-To: <011601c0d914$bdf99e40$0100a8c0@dellhare> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 May 2001, Bruce Ray wrote: > I'll ask, John; what -is- the *exact* Heathkit part number for the EC-1 > computer assembly and user manuals? > > Bruce To tell the truth, I dunno that one. The EC-1, a small table-top unit with 7 (or9?) opamps seems to be available without a lot of searching. A year or so ago I turned up three or four of them in the $200 ->$500 range. So they're out there. Several Listmembers own and operate them, so they would be better able to give you the Heath Part Numbers of the manuals. Doug...? The EC-400 docs I had accumulated went to Germany with the machine, so I have no record now of what the exact PNs of them are. Again.. I was very kindly assisted in this matter by two Members, who might also be willing to step in and provide that specific info. Since the EC-400 was also sold as a (really big!) kit, there is a book for each module model ordered aith the unit... not all EC-400 had the same module complement. Then there was the overall assebly book and one (or more) Operator's manuals. If you are going to find and use an analogue computer... there are others out there as well... EAI, ComDyna, Systron-Donner, etc... but there are also some very good basic texts, mostly from the 50's and early 60's.. on the art of Analogue Computing. An abebooks.com or bilbliofind.com search on "Analog Computing" or 'Analogue Computers" will turn up some likely titles. And, a couple of years ago, I had a bit of correspondence with a gentleman who was building an analog machine from scratch using 741 opamp ICs... I wonder what became of that? Good luck in finding a Machine... if analog computing texts turn out to be elusive.. my small library of such texts also accompanied the EC-400 to Germany, so perhpas I can persuade the New Owner to give you the titles and authors to refine your search. I'd still own the EC-400, but I'm currently living and working in India, and I didn't think it would fit in carry-on baggage. :) Cheers John From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Thu May 10 03:18:07 2001 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0007A26C@BUSH02> > How do you define resolution at the monitor level? I've always been able to > get entirely different resolutions out of monitors, and why would they > disagree? If it's an analogue signal, wouldn't the monitor just sweep along > and project whatever is input? It's defined in lines, i.e. the number of black to white transitions you can draw on a horizontal line before it all becomes a grey blur. If you know the dot pitch for your monitor then it will be about 1/2 that for delta dots or 1/3 that for stripes Multiplied by the tube width. Domestic receivers are rarely better than 450 lines which is why NetTV is so warm and fuzzy. Lee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The information contained in this email may contain information which is confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. ________________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses, by Star Internet, delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit: http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu May 10 05:37:07 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: SoCal auction madness, free stuff, more Message-ID: Very little is left, and the rolloff dumpster is 3/4 full. Surprizingly digging in the last couple of pallets this morning turned out, well. We found a cache of brand new in the box Grid stuff, looks like maybe 6 brand new tablets and some misc. Unfortunately this was also mostly a day of dumping stuff. I tried to keep ahead of the dumping crew, but lots of stuff like new old stock HP keyboards (like the workstations used) were tossed and buried. Around this weekend I will post a wrap up, with details on the Grid's, and kind of a what it was like post. FWIW I will be at the site again for a bit on Thursday morning, but no later than lunch time (thinking 10-12), and if someone really really wants to call me my cell is 714-292-7852. From philcarole at acenet.net.au Tue May 8 04:36:35 2001 From: philcarole at acenet.net.au (Phil & Carole) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: how do I get an SE/30? Message-ID: <200105101121.GAA33811@opal.tseinc.com> Can you Tell me where to get an SE/30? >From Tom Reply to tomhotdog@hotmail.com From truthanl at oclc.org Thu May 10 08:12:38 2001 From: truthanl at oclc.org (Truthan,Larry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: ECL Logic - not ten yeas old? Message-ID: <5D2A5FE013C66B44901B5A45A5304DDA0172D330@oa2-server.oa.oclc.org> http://www.semtech.com/pdf/ate/ecl_dc_specs.pdf Its rather new High speed low noise logic. Sincerely Larry Truthan truthanl@oclc.org classiccmp-digest subscriber faster to respond directly to email. From at258 at osfn.org Thu May 10 09:06:00 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: VCF East 1.0 - July 28/29 in Marlborough, Massachusetts! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I got in very early this morning with a Wang VS-85 system that was derelict way up in Wells River, VT. Next week we have to pick up an IBM System 34 in Brooklyn, NY. and a System 23 on the Island. The pace of donations has really started to pick up. We've been offered some IBM 3380's in From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu May 10 09:17:57 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp me) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: ECL Logic - not ten yeas old? Message-ID: <383633991.989504277327.JavaMail.root@web538-wrb> What? ECL is one of the oldest logic families with ECL 1000 dating back to the 60s! I know I still have some of the old moto ECL parts. The VAX9000 (over 10 years old) was built with ECL 100k. Ove the years the threshold levels have changed some but the basic logic has been the same save for the really big thing... it's still one of the fastest. Allison ------Original Message------ From: "Truthan,Larry" To: "'pechter@bg-tc-ppp1580.monmouth.com'" Sent: May 10, 2001 1:12:38 PM GMT Subject: ECL Logic - not ten yeas old? http://www.semtech.com/pdf/ate/ecl_dc_specs.pdf Its rather new High speed low noise logic. Sincerely Larry Truthan truthanl@oclc.org classiccmp-digest subscriber faster to respond directly to email. From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Thu May 10 09:32:48 2001 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: ECL Logic - not ten yeas old? Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0007A26E@BUSH02> Its rather new High speed low noise logic. Sincerely Larry Truthan truthanl@oclc.org classiccmp-digest subscriber faster to respond directly to email. ECL isn't, I have some data books from 1974. Lee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The information contained in this email may contain information which is confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. ________________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses, by Star Internet, delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit: http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp From edick at idcomm.com Thu May 10 09:39:24 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: ECL Logic - not ten yeas old? References: <5D2A5FE013C66B44901B5A45A5304DDA0172D330@oa2-server.oa.oclc.org> Message-ID: <001201c0d95f$0274bf60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> It was OLD technology back in the mid-80's. Its power requirement was a major factor in its unpopularity, and, now that CMOS logic in the form of field-programmable devices, challenges its performance, it's not terribly popular. There's a newer family called PECL, operating from a 5-volt positivie power supply, that's been promoted by MOTOROLA, among others, that still offers the top speeds for critical timing and ultra-fast communication circuits. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Truthan,Larry" To: Cc: "'classiccmp@Classiccmp.org'" Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 7:12 AM Subject: ECL Logic - not ten yeas old? > http://www.semtech.com/pdf/ate/ecl_dc_specs.pdf > > Its rather new High speed low noise logic. > > Sincerely Larry Truthan > truthanl@oclc.org classiccmp-digest subscriber faster to respond > directly to email. > From edick at idcomm.com Thu May 10 10:04:57 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog References: <01May9.153601edt.119046@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <002a01c0d962$96dc0d40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Hogwash! 56Hz won't produce any flicker a human can detect. It may beat with the local lighting, but it won't flicker noticeably. Moreover, the Multisync II that I had on my desk in '87..89 was completely capable of interlaced display at 1024x768 and, assuming moderately subdued room lighting, which I didn't have, showed no noticeable flicker in that mode either. Whatever claims the mfg made about it, it was very useful at 800x600, which was the mode in which I used it most. I'm really confused by the hubub over CGA/EGA/VGA/XGA/PGA etc performance as discussed here. The monitor has no control whatsoever over the horizontal pixel density it displays. It does, however, have a set of video amplifiers with limited bandwidth. It also has limts on its sweep circuits. These influence, and, indeed, limit, but don't control the resolutions at which it is practical to use a given monitor. The Multisync series of monitors produced by NEC and emulated by virtually everyone else as PC's became popular, had multiple bands within which they would track horizontal and vertical sync signals. In some models this was very obvious in that they had a set of adjustable circuits on their main circuit board obviously marked for this purpose. These did interact somewhat and it was possible, as I learned the hard way, to make them interact such that nothing worked correctly. However, though every monitor puts limits on (a) its video bandwidth, (b) its horizontal sweep and (c) vertical sweep rate(s), these certainly don't exercise any sort of precise control. I've never seen a video board that put out digital signals to an EGA/VGA monitor, though that doesn't mean they don't exist. However, my experience making "EGA" monitors continue to serve through the VGA era suggests that, since they all seem to exhibit full dynamic range on their video inputs at nominally 1-volt p-p signal levels, reinforces my belief that they're all analog at the inputs. The fact that the IBM EGA board had a simple DAC on it, with which it produced discretely differing analog signal levels seems to support that, as does the fact that the same analog input produces a display on the typical "EGA" monitor, though it is affected by the switches than many of them had, effecting, mainly, the termination. The ONLY problem I've ever encountered, that rendered some EGA monitors, difficult of impossible to use with VGA signal input has been the sweep circuits. Some of them just won't allow adjustment into the somewhat higher horizontal sweep rates. If you get them to sweep at the desired horizontal rate, they all seem to like a 60 Hz +/- 10% vertical rate just fine. Some "EGA" monitors won''t slow their vertical rate down enough to support interlaced 1024x768 display, however. Now, perhaps someone can produce a document that clears up what the problem is. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 1:25 PM Subject: Re: Converting TTL monitor to Analog > On Wednesday, May 9, 2001, at 01:23 PM, Iggy Drougge wrote: > >> The II would do unlimited colors in analog mode and up to 64 > >> colors in TTL mode. It's vertical freq range was 50 - 80 Hz with a > >> maximum resolution of 800 x 560. I believe the 2a was the first to > >> be able to reach 800 x 600, though the upgrade to the GS also was > >> able to. It's horizontal freq. range was 15.5 - 35 khz. > > > > How do you define resolution at the monitor level? I've always been > > able to > > get entirely different resolutions out of monitors, and why would they > > disagree? If it's an analogue signal, wouldn't the monitor just sweep > > along > > and project whatever is input? > > The specs I referenced above are those put out by NEC for that > monitor. It's doubtful that the II would do be able to do 800 x 600 in > it's vertical freq. range, which is why NEC lists it as a max. > resolution of 800 x 560. I believe at that resolution they list it at a > vert. freq. of 56 Hz. Even if it could take the vertical freq. low > enough to get to 800 x 600 I wouldn't want to have to look at it. 56 Hz > will flicker enough as it is. > > Jeff > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu May 10 10:10:11 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010509122242.019a9d88@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <003601c0d963$4f2cce20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck McManis" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 1:29 PM Subject: Re: Converting TTL monitor to Analog > > Color monitors have a color mask, and that color mask has a 'dot pitch' > which defines where you can display pixels. If you attempt to display more > pixels on a line than there are holes in the mask, then you will get > banding artifacts. > I've seen no evidence of this. If this were the case, then the fact that many display systems use inexpensive 1000 ppm oscillators would cause enough variation that it would be obvious on those monitors having this feature. Moreover, horizontal phase adjustment and vertical height/horizontal width adjustment would be impractical. > > Next there is frequency response. The amplifiers that connect to the color > guns have something called a 'slew rate' which is the rate at which they > can change their output color. If you put to many pixels side by side then > you will start seeing color degradation due to the fact that the amplifier > can't get to the new color fast enough. If you display several columns of > vertical white lines on a black background you will see (in cheaper > monitors) that the leading edge of the while line is not white, its gray. > And as you increase the number of lines the white lines will get grayer and > eventually you will have just a gray screen. > Amplifier bandwidth issues are a factor in the practical use range of a given monitor. However, that has nothing to do with whether a monitor is analog or digital in nature. > > You "can" drive monitors all over the map, eventually you will destroy them > if you allow the horizontal output driver to over heat. However, getting an > acceptable signal out of one is more constrained. > While that's true, it's hard to do. > > --Chuck > > > From zmerch at 30below.com Thu May 10 10:58:03 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: <002a01c0d962$96dc0d40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <01May9.153601edt.119046@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20010510115803.00c9d920@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Richard Erlacher may have mentioned these words: >Hogwash! Hogwash, yourself. Altho I usually agree with what you type, I must seriously disagree with you here... >56Hz won't produce any flicker a human can detect. It may beat with the local >lighting, but it won't flicker noticeably. I can *easily* see 56 & 60Hz flicker, and anything below 72Hz can give me a headache. (Interlaced VGA can give me a *monster* headache in under 30 minutes.) 75Hz for me is borderline but usable, and 85Hz & above are my "target zones". (also, the larger the tube, the easier it is to see the flicker -- at least for me - I'm running 75Hz at work on a 19" tube, and I can still see it.) Just because *you* cannot see the flicker, doesn't mean all humans cannot see or be affected by the flicker. Anywho, just thought I'd throw my $0.000002 in... Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From knightstalkerbob at netscape.net Thu May 10 11:06:32 2001 From: knightstalkerbob at netscape.net (Bob Mason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010509122242.019a9d88@208.226.86.10> <003601c0d963$4f2cce20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <259FEC62.07971BA4.CF1A260E@netscape.net> classiccmp@classiccmp.org wrote: > > see below, plz > > Dick > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chuck McManis" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 1:29 PM > Subject: Re: Converting TTL monitor to Analog > > > > > Next there is frequency response. The amplifiers that connect to the color > > guns have something called a 'slew rate' which is the rate at which they > > can change their output color. Not to be picky, BUT. Slew rate is measured as V/us (Volts per micro-second). It does not directly change the color, only the INTENSITY of the particular color. Slightly O.T., have a Sansui audio power amp rated at 160W/chan, 160V/us. Cleanest amp I've ever heard. And yes it's over ten years old (purchased in '81). Bob Mason -- Bob Mason 2x Amiga 500's, GVP A530 (40mhz 68030/68882, 8meg Fast, SCSI), 1.3/3.1, 2meg Chip, full ECS chipset, EZ135, 1084S, big harddrives, 2.2xCD Gateway Performance 500 Piece 'o Crap, 'ME, 128meg, 20Gig, flatbed. __________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu May 10 11:29:02 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: <003601c0d963$4f2cce20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010509122242.019a9d88@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010510091823.01f77ae0@208.226.86.10> At 09:10 AM 5/10/01 -0600, Dick wrote: > > > > Color monitors have a color mask, and that color mask has a 'dot pitch' > > which defines where you can display pixels. If you attempt to display more > > pixels on a line than there are holes in the mask, then you will get > > banding artifacts. > > >I've seen no evidence of this. If this were the case, then the fact that many >display systems use inexpensive 1000 ppm oscillators would cause enough >variation that it would be obvious on those monitors having this feature. >Moreover, horizontal phase adjustment and vertical height/horizontal width >adjustment would be impractical. Evidence of what? The shadow mask or the interference patterns created by displaying at something close to the dot pitch? Take a 17" monitor (13.5" across) with a .28 dot pitch. That's about 91 dots per inch (25.4mm/inch / 0.28mm/dot) which gives a top resolution of 1228.5 dots. Now run it at 1280 x 1024, see the "moire" pattern. ? Now try it at 1600 x 1200, its even weirder. >Amplifier bandwidth issues are a factor in the practical use range of a given >monitor. However, that has nothing to do with whether a monitor is analog or >digital in nature. All monitors are analog, they all have amplifiers to convert from the user's video input into a voltage that can affect the brightness of the electron beam. Now in "TTL" or "Digital" monitors there amplifiers respond in a very non-linear way to the input. Thats the difference. Once it gets to the actual video electronics they are darn near all the same. Amplifier bandwidth will determine how "cleanly" the colors shift from one to the next, colors are produced by a set of three intensities that in turn become beam intensities, which in turn excite three phosphors to become light intensity. There is also a frequency response component in the phosphor. > > > > You "can" drive monitors all over the map, eventually you will destroy them > > if you allow the horizontal output driver to over heat. However, getting an > > acceptable signal out of one is more constrained. > > >While that's true, it's hard to do. Your correct of course, with 10 year old technology it is somewhat difficult. With a modern video card for the PC its trivial. --Chuck From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu May 10 11:24:20 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: how do I get an SE/30? In-Reply-To: <200105101121.GAA33811@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: > Can you Tell me where to get an SE/30? I would just walk out to my car, one is sitting in the back right now. Check the thrift shops, order one with shipping from distant location, or even better include your general location in the request for items like a small computer that aren't cheap to ship compared to the items cost. From msell at ontimesupport.com Thu May 10 11:34:54 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20010510115803.00c9d920@mail.30below.com> References: <002a01c0d962$96dc0d40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <01May9.153601edt.119046@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010510113229.00a78490@127.0.0.1> Don't forget, tube persistence has much to do with visibility of "flicker". I have an analog storage scope at home that can save a single-shot trace for several minutes before you can see a change in the scan. - Matt > >56Hz won't produce any flicker a human can detect. It may beat with the >local > >lighting, but it won't flicker noticeably. > >I can *easily* see 56 & 60Hz flicker, and anything below 72Hz can give me a >headache. (Interlaced VGA can give me a *monster* headache in under 30 >minutes.) 75Hz for me is borderline but usable, and 85Hz & above are my >"target zones". > >(also, the larger the tube, the easier it is to see the flicker -- at least >for me - I'm running 75Hz at work on a 19" tube, and I can still see it.) > >Just because *you* cannot see the flicker, doesn't mean all humans cannot >see or be affected by the flicker. "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From epgroot at ucdavis.edu Thu May 10 12:01:31 2001 From: epgroot at ucdavis.edu (Edwin P. Groot) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: how do I get an SE/30? In-Reply-To: <200105101121.GAA33811@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010510100131.007dc9c0@yellow.ucdavis.edu> Tom, Read this: http://www.vintage.org/cgi-bin/content.pl?id=001 and read section 5 of: http://www.blinkenlights.com/classiccmp/faq.txt Regards, Edwin At 07:06 PM 5/8/2001 +0930, you wrote: > Can you Tell me where to get an SE/30? > > >>From Tom > >Reply to tomhotdog@hotmail.com > > > From ncherry at home.com Thu May 10 12:08:16 2001 From: ncherry at home.com (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: System 36 Rescue? References: <3AF61EE7.F082BA0F@home.com> <20010507121526.29951@mail.lafayette.edu> Message-ID: <3AFACB00.E352B8D4@home.com> Tom Owad wrote: > > >No manuals, remember this is an IBM mini/mainframe system. > > That's why manuals would be so helpful. :-) > > >You'll need the OS and what not. I'll drag it over in the morning. > > Ok. Thanks. Let me know when might suit you for pick-up. Sorry for all the delay but someone picked up the system before I could get to it. I'm sorry to have gotten hopes up. I did try to move it the day before it disappeared but it is very heavy. If it's anything like it cousin, the AS/400, then it probably had battery backup built in. -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Thu May 10 12:12:58 2001 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: Computer recycling Message-ID: I just saw this article about computer recycling it talks about the options, seems mainly to concern PC's. Nothing about collecting or reusing, more like grind-them-up. http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1006-201-5787986-0.html?tag=tp_pr Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 10 12:10:09 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: <002a01c0d962$96dc0d40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <01May9.153601edt.119046@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010510120920.01e404b0@pc> At 09:04 AM 5/10/01 -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: >I've never seen a video board that put out digital signals to an EGA/VGA >monitor, though that doesn't mean they don't exist. I believe there's a new all-digital interface for flat-panel monitors. - John From fwhite at pobox.com Thu May 10 13:04:59 2001 From: fwhite at pobox.com (Fredric White) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: ECL Logic - not ten yeas old? In-Reply-To: <383633991.989504277327.JavaMail.root@web538-wrb> References: <383633991.989504277327.JavaMail.root@web538-wrb> Message-ID: <15098.55371.740000.296663@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Indeed. I have a bunch of MECL 300 Series stuff, with a datasheet dated March 1967, and parts which appear to have 1964 date codes. Logic levels were "0" = -1.55V and "1" = -0.75V. The flip flop toggles at 30MHz, not bad for the Apollo era. I went ahead and scanned in parts of the datasheet: http://www.geocities.com/fwhite/mc300 Fredric ajp me writes: > ECL is one of the oldest logic families with ECL 1000 dating > back to the 60s! I know I still have some of the old moto ... From edick at idcomm.com Thu May 10 13:14:17 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog References: <01May9.153601edt.119046@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <3.0.1.32.20010510115803.00c9d920@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <001001c0d97d$0703c1c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, you may be onto something, but it was widely accepted back in the '70's that a human couldn't see the flicker in an interlaced TV picture, and they certainly wouldn't see flicker in 60 Hz refresh of a text/graphic display. In a subdued light environment, not toally dark, but somewhat subdued, particularly in the absence of flourescent lighting, I can't see the normal 30 Hz interlace in normal network TV broadcast signal at all. I can, however, ALWAYS, see the interlace in those overlays produced on AMIGA video editing tools (probably the cheap ones, but often used at educational institutions' video production studios.) I'm aware of this only because a friend of mine told me what was used to produce them, and sometimes their credits include details about how the text and graphics were integrated into the video. I'd suggest you try looking at the 60+ Hz monitor that gives you a headache in an environment free from flourescent lighting. You might even try watching it in a subdued-light, but not dark environment, with something pleasant on the screen. I can look at code or schematic diagrams for about 8 -10 hours, after which it gives me a headache. I'm just trying to rule out effects other than the "flicker" that nobody could see back in the '70's. Back then the 30 Hz interlace was what occasionally caused folks to complain. Maybe I've just been "hardened" to that effect by much exposure. The "beat" between the nearly-60 Hz at which many monitors do their vertical retrace, and the considerably-closer-to-60 Hz at which the lights flash can certainly cause ill effects. Maybe there's an advantage to being unable to see this purported flicker. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Merchberger" To: Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 9:58 AM Subject: Re: Converting TTL monitor to Analog > Rumor has it that Richard Erlacher may have mentioned these words: > >Hogwash! > > Hogwash, yourself. Altho I usually agree with what you type, I must > seriously disagree with you here... > > >56Hz won't produce any flicker a human can detect. It may beat with the > local > >lighting, but it won't flicker noticeably. > > I can *easily* see 56 & 60Hz flicker, and anything below 72Hz can give me a > headache. (Interlaced VGA can give me a *monster* headache in under 30 > minutes.) 75Hz for me is borderline but usable, and 85Hz & above are my > "target zones". > > (also, the larger the tube, the easier it is to see the flicker -- at least > for me - I'm running 75Hz at work on a 19" tube, and I can still see it.) > > Just because *you* cannot see the flicker, doesn't mean all humans cannot > see or be affected by the flicker. > > Anywho, just thought I'd throw my $0.000002 in... > > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers > Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. > > If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead > disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu May 10 13:15:29 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010509122242.019a9d88@208.226.86.10> <003601c0d963$4f2cce20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <259FEC62.07971BA4.CF1A260E@netscape.net> Message-ID: <001601c0d97d$31f73d80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I agree ... but didn't make the remarks which apparently engendered your comment. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Mason" To: Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 10:06 AM Subject: Re: Converting TTL monitor to Analog > > classiccmp@classiccmp.org wrote: > > > > see below, plz > > > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Chuck McManis" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 1:29 PM > > Subject: Re: Converting TTL monitor to Analog > > > > > > > > > > Next there is frequency response. The amplifiers that connect to the color > > > guns have something called a 'slew rate' which is the rate at which they > > > can change their output color. > > Not to be picky, BUT. Slew rate is measured as V/us (Volts per micro-second). It does not directly change the color, only the INTENSITY of the particular color. > > Slightly O.T., have a Sansui audio power amp rated at 160W/chan, 160V/us. Cleanest amp I've ever heard. And yes it's over ten years old (purchased in '81). > > Bob Mason > > -- > Bob Mason > > 2x Amiga 500's, GVP A530 (40mhz 68030/68882, 8meg Fast, SCSI), 1.3/3.1, 2meg Chip, full ECS chipset, EZ135, 1084S, big harddrives, 2.2xCD > Gateway Performance 500 Piece 'o Crap, 'ME, 128meg, 20Gig, flatbed. > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ > > From allain at panix.com Thu May 10 13:16:03 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: 'Machine that Changed the World' References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010509122242.019a9d88@208.226.86.10> <003601c0d963$4f2cce20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <003101c0d97d$46c48ec0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> While refusing to believe that the video tape of this is unavailable, I Still couldn't find one for retail. I did however just find this, which you might like: The Machine That Changed the World http://ei.cs.vt.edu/~history/TMTCTW.html John A. From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu May 10 13:35:10 2001 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: System 36 Rescue? Message-ID: Its cousin is *not* the AS/400... the AS/400 and System/38 are cousins, not the S/36... The S/36 is, to quote IBM, "an enhanced S/34 instruction processor with up to 7MB of main storage." It is a damn nifty, bulletproof box though, I own 3 of them and parts of at least 3 others.. Will J _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From edick at idcomm.com Thu May 10 13:44:49 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010509122242.019a9d88@208.226.86.10> <5.0.0.25.2.20010510091823.01f77ae0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <001c01c0d981$4b080800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Lets start with this one: > > > You "can" drive monitors all over the map, eventually you will destroy them > > > if you allow the horizontal output driver to over heat. However, getting an > > > acceptable signal out of one is more constrained. > > > > >While that's true, it's hard to do. > > Your correct of course, with 10 year old technology it is somewhat > difficult. With a modern video card for the PC its trivial. I'm completely confused by what you say here. What I meant with my remark that it's difficult to do, is that it's difficult to damage a monitor by driving it "all over the map" as you put it. There are monitors that can be damaged by the absence of an appropriate sync signal. Those are fixed-frequency types, however, and they've mostly been damaged already, or they have a home where they are fed the correct signals. The fact is, this discussion has wandered around without any reference to steer it. I agree, that IF there were such a thing as a digital-input monitor, which may exist, it might take a video signal that's digital in nature. I've said, however, that I've never seen one, and I've had, not hundreds, but, over a hundred monitors here that have all happily produced correct-looking and thoroughly useable displays from a nominally 1v p-p analog signal as is produced by a typical VGA/SVGA or whatever you want to call that adapter. I've had exactly ONE CGA (card) and compatible "color" monitor in house, and, after viewing the display on the essentially new monitor, promptly disposed of it, so I've not examined those. I've had little interest in the EGA types, except in that you can buy them for $5 and tweak them to work with a VGA card. That means that I can spend $5 and a little time and then give them to a charitable organization together with an essentially junk-able computer and subsequently write the computer off. Moreover, some of those that I donated nearly 10 years ago are still serving those organizations. I've given these things to friends for use by their kids, and to folks otherwise unable to afford a computer for use in learning to use a computer. Back in '92 or so, I bought a box of surplus 3-1/2" diskettes and found they were sets of Autocad-v12 diskettes, so I gave a set to a fellow who'd been disabled due to a construction accident, along with a computer with a tweaked EGA monitor on it, and that one's still working. I've just not encountered the problem that is apparently at the center of this TTL-monitor thing. You'd think I'd have bumped into at least one. If somebody has a schematic and manual for one of these "digital" monitors, I'd be interested in looking it over. It makes little sense to put a digital signal where an analog one will work, but this is IBM we're dealing with, right? I've seen monitors with switchable termination resistors that respond quite nonlinearly when the terminations are turned off, but those were monochrome types. Now ... see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck McManis" To: Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 10:29 AM Subject: Re: Converting TTL monitor to Analog > At 09:10 AM 5/10/01 -0600, Dick wrote: > > > > > > Color monitors have a color mask, and that color mask has a 'dot pitch' > > > which defines where you can display pixels. If you attempt to display more > > > pixels on a line than there are holes in the mask, then you will get > > > banding artifacts. > This suggests that there are precise "spots" that one has to hit. in order to generate an appropriate display. It also seems to suggest that if one move the right margin of the display, leaving the number of pixels unchanged, but increases the dot-clock, one should see evidence of this effect. Moreover, since this is a fixed characteristic of the front-face of the CRT, altering the vertical or horizontal size should make it apparent as well. > > > > > >I've seen no evidence of this. If this were the case, then the fact that many > >display systems use inexpensive 1000 ppm oscillators would cause enough > >variation that it would be obvious on those monitors having this feature. > >Moreover, horizontal phase adjustment and vertical height/horizontal width > >adjustment would be impractical. > > Evidence of what? The shadow mask or the interference patterns created by > displaying at something close to the dot pitch? Take a 17" monitor (13.5" > across) with a .28 dot pitch. That's about 91 dots per inch (25.4mm/inch / > 0.28mm/dot) which gives a top resolution of 1228.5 dots. Now run it at 1280 > x 1024, see the "moire" pattern. ? Now try it at 1600 x 1200, its even > weirder. > I've just now fiddled with the adjustments on my video card, which allows slight horizontal and moderate vertical frequency alterations to be made in software. I've also done this while fiddling with the vertical and horizontal adjustments. I see no evidence of banding or any other anomalous behavior. > > >Amplifier bandwidth issues are a factor in the practical use range of a given > >monitor. However, that has nothing to do with whether a monitor is analog or > >digital in nature. > > All monitors are analog, they all have amplifiers to convert from the > user's video input into a voltage that can affect the brightness of the > electron beam. Now in "TTL" or "Digital" monitors there amplifiers respond > in a very non-linear way to the input. Thats the difference. Once it gets > to the actual video electronics they are darn near all the same. > I don't doubt any of this, but I have reservations about the purported existence of "digital" monitors outside the monochrome world. > > Amplifier bandwidth will determine how "cleanly" the colors shift from one > to the next, colors are produced by a set of three intensities that in turn > become beam intensities, which in turn excite three phosphors to become > light intensity. There is also a frequency response component in the phosphor. > No disagreement here. > > > > > > --Chuck > > > From marvin at rain.org Thu May 10 13:47:50 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: 1989 DEC Networks and Communications Buyer's Guide References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010509122242.019a9d88@208.226.86.10> <003601c0d963$4f2cce20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <003101c0d97d$46c48ec0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <3AFAE256.3769C14F@rain.org> I am cleaning things out (still) and ran across this softbound book. The outer edges are a bit messy with some parts of the front and back covers and nearby pages deteriorated away at the edge. Looks like it got wet at some point. The pages are all readable though. Anyone want this for $3.00 (weighs about 2.5 pounds) including book rate mailing in the US? From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 10 14:03:49 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: <001001c0d97d$0703c1c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <01May9.153601edt.119046@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <3.0.1.32.20010510115803.00c9d920@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010510140048.01cb9610@pc> At 12:14 PM 5/10/01 -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: >Well, you may be onto something, but it was widely accepted back in the '70's >that a human couldn't see the flicker in an interlaced TV picture, and they >certainly wouldn't see flicker in 60 Hz refresh of a text/graphic display. Did I miss the discussion of the variability of phosphor persistence and monitor color temperature, and how it affects perception of flicker? There were classic Amiga "devices" consisting of a slightly darkened piece of plastic. Placed before a monitor displaying a heavily flickering interlaced high-res Amiga screen, they'd seemingly reduce the flicker-induced headache. - John From chomko at greenbelt.com Thu May 10 14:26:50 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: Classic Computer website Message-ID: <3AFAEB7A.DE4CF658@greenbelt.com> I was looking over the classiccmp website at: http://www.blinkenlights.com/classiccmp/faq.txt There is reference to a website at: http://haliotis.bothell.washington.edu/classiccmp This site is inactive or otherwise not reachable. Has it moved? Eric From brian.roth at firstniagarabank.com Thu May 10 15:14:31 2001 From: brian.roth at firstniagarabank.com (brian roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: 'Machine that Changed the World' Message-ID: John, This is actually where I started my search. This has now become a quest for me. I did get a response from someone on the list who said they had the whole series on one tape but I haven't heard back from him. A friend of mine who besides being a VMS guru does audio/video editing, said his father had connections at a local PBS station and he would see what he could find for me. If I do find it, I will definitely make it available to the list. Brian. John Allain wrote: While refusing to believe that the video tape of this is unavailable, I Still couldn't find one for retail. I did however just find this, which you might like: The Machine That Changed the World http://ei.cs.vt.edu/~history/TMTCTW.html John A. Brian Roth Network Services First Niagara Bank (716) 625-7500 X2186 Brian.Roth@FirstNiagaraBank.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 10 15:03:53 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: <3AFA0E44.6755C66@greenbelt.com> from "Eric Chomko" at May 9, 1 11:43:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 7359 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010510/02330c31/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 10 15:07:12 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: ECL Logic - not ten yeas old? In-Reply-To: <5D2A5FE013C66B44901B5A45A5304DDA0172D330@oa2-server.oa.oclc.org> from "Truthan,Larry" at May 10, 1 09:12:38 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 453 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010510/d47852d1/attachment.ksh From rmeenaks at olf.com Thu May 10 15:25:21 2001 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: 'Machine that Changed the World' References: Message-ID: <3AFAF931.7070306@olf.com> Brian, I havent forgotten you. The move has been really slow, so once I finish moving over to my new place, I will send you a copy. If you beat me to it, then I would love to get a fresh copy as I am missing some minutes in the later series on my tape.... Ram brian roth wrote: > John, > > This is actually where I started my search. This has now become a quest for me. I did get a response from someone on the list who said they had the whole series on one tape but I haven't heard back from him. A friend of mine who besides being a VMS guru does audio/video editing, said his father had connections at a local PBS station and he would see what he could find for me. If I do find it, I will definitely make it available to the list. > > Brian. > > > John Allain wrote: > > While refusing to believe that the video tape of this is > unavailable, I Still couldn't find one for retail. > > I did however just find this, which you might like: > The Machine That Changed the World > http://ei.cs.vt.edu/~history/TMTCTW.html > > John A. > > > Brian Roth > Network Services > First Niagara Bank > (716) 625-7500 X2186 > Brian.Roth@FirstNiagaraBank.com > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu May 10 15:29:36 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010510120920.01e404b0@pc> References: <01May9.153601edt.119046@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <4.3.2.7.0.20010510120920.01e404b0@pc> Message-ID: >At 09:04 AM 5/10/01 -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: >>I've never seen a video board that put out digital signals to an EGA/VGA >>monitor, though that doesn't mean they don't exist. > >I believe there's a new all-digital interface for flat-panel monitors. Yes, Apple and SGI, among others, sell digital interface LCD displays. Currently it's not quite standardized though. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu May 10 15:35:30 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: <001c01c0d981$4b080800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010509122242.019a9d88@208.226.86.10> <5.0.0.25.2.20010510091823.01f77ae0@208.226.86.10> <001c01c0d981$4b080800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: >What I meant with my remark that it's difficult to do, is that it's >difficult to >damage a monitor by driving it "all over the map" as you put it. There are >monitors that can be damaged by the absence of an appropriate sync signal. >Those are fixed-frequency types, however, and they've mostly been damaged >already, or they have a home where they are fed the correct signals. I've certainly seen VGA-type multisync monitors damaged due to people trying to push the resolutions up beyond what the monitor was meant to do. Today with all the PnP stuff it's not seen as often as it was with DOS and the tweaking manually though. >it. I agree, that IF there were such a thing as a digital-input >monitor, which >may exist, it might take a video signal that's digital in nature. I've said, >however, that I've never seen one, and I've had, not hundreds, but, over a Looking at to references I have here, I see two monitors right off the bat that take a TTL signal as input: both the Tandy CM-1 and VM-1 monitors, not to mention the current crop of DVI LCD's out there. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From mranalog at home.com Thu May 10 15:49:40 2001 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: Mechanical analog computer history...Heathkit Message-ID: <3AFAFEE3.57102112@home.com> On Wed, 9 May 2001, John wrote: > Doug...? Sorry, I'm on digest. On Wed, 9 May 2001, Bruce Ray wrote: > ...and who has information on that wonderfully-nostalgic ol' > Heathkit analog computer that existed in the '60s?? I could probably answer most questions. I have two EC-1s. > It was the EC-1 that I was thinking of, and was hundreds of dollars in the > '60s as I recall. Any cover-page art scanned for that to take me back a few > decades..? I have both manuals for EC-1 on CD. I could send you a scan of the cover from both manuals, but there is not a picture of the computer on the covers. The EC-1 first appeared in the 1960 catalog. Unfortunity, I can seem to find any of Heath catalogs after 1959. On Wed, 9 May 2001, ip500 wrote: > The Heath ANALOG COMPUTER model ES-400 circa 1957] The Heath Electronic Analog Computer (ES-400 is the model number of just the cabinet kit) was advertised in their catalogs from 1956 to 1959. I have about half of the kit manuals for this computer, and no computer. On Wed, 9 May 2001, Bruce Ray wrote: > I'll ask, John; what -is- the *exact* Heathkit part number for the EC-1 > computer assembly and user manuals? When contacting Heath manual replacement service, you just need the kit model number. Regards, --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ========================================= From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Thu May 10 16:15:10 2001 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:14 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog Message-ID: The Osborne 1 also used TTL-level signals for its video. -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Hellige [mailto:jhellige@earthlink.net] Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 3:36 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Converting TTL monitor to Analog Looking at to references I have here, I see two monitors right off the bat that take a TTL signal as input: both the Tandy CM-1 and VM-1 monitors, not to mention the current crop of DVI LCD's out there. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu May 10 16:19:48 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: Wanted to trade a VAX 4000/200 system for a KA694 cpu Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010510141225.02810e28@208.226.86.129> I have a VAX 4000/200 in a very unusual rack mount BA400 series cabinet. The drives point out the front and the cards mount in the back. I do not have the 'slides' for this chassis. I would be willing to trade it for KA694 (VAX 4000/705A) CPU module. The 4000/200 includes a TK70 and a RF72 disk I believe. It takes BA400 type disk/tape cards. It has 32MB of RAM and a CXY08 async mux card. I'll pay to ship it to you on a pallet if you live near one of Forward Air's terminals. Yes, I know KA694s are sold by resellers for a lot of money, and no I don't hold out a lot of hope that someone will be interested in trading one single card for a complete system, however I had to ask. The alternative is to start selling VAXen on Ebay until I've made enough to pay for a 694. :-) [The astute will wonder how many VAXen that will take, I don't know but we just might find out...] --Chuck From edick at idcomm.com Thu May 10 16:34:12 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog References: <01May9.153601edt.119046@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <4.3.2.7.0.20010510120920.01e404b0@pc> Message-ID: <002701c0d998$f4777620$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> What sort of digital interface would such devices use? They'd have to have lots of wires, e.g. 26 or so pairs, if the thing is using 24-bit color. Perish the thought someone would use more color depth than that! It's hard to imagine they'd do that. The number of wires that have to transport high-frequency signal is the reason the analog is still so difficult to surpass. After all, a 26-pair shielded cable with an appropriate connector, made in the US, would immediately become the most costly component in a computer system. I doubt a computer maker would go for that, as the 20" monitor (@~$300-$400) is presently the most costly component. That would essentially make the 20" display and cable more than 2/3 the cost of the computer. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 2:29 PM Subject: Re: Converting TTL monitor to Analog > >At 09:04 AM 5/10/01 -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >>I've never seen a video board that put out digital signals to an EGA/VGA > >>monitor, though that doesn't mean they don't exist. > > > >I believe there's a new all-digital interface for flat-panel monitors. > > Yes, Apple and SGI, among others, sell digital interface LCD > displays. Currently it's not quite standardized though. > > Jeff > -- > Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu May 10 16:40:04 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010509122242.019a9d88@208.226.86.10> <5.0.0.25.2.20010510091823.01f77ae0@208.226.86.10> <001c01c0d981$4b080800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <002d01c0d999$c695bea0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Just exactly how does this damage occur? While it's not impossible, multisync types have a PLL that either captures the sync signal and uses it or substitutes its own if it can't acquire. It's own is well within a safe range, however. Moreover, the sync rate has nothing at all to do with the question of whether a monitor's video input is "digital" or not. The current generation flat-panel displays are clearly out of scope for this thread, since we're discussing old technology and the context is the question of whether an EGA/VGA monitor is digital or analog and how one might make it work with an existing VGA-type card with analog outputs. There are flat panel displays that take the DE-15 connection ordinarily intended for CRT displays. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 2:35 PM Subject: Re: Converting TTL monitor to Analog > >What I meant with my remark that it's difficult to do, is that it's > >difficult to > >damage a monitor by driving it "all over the map" as you put it. There are > >monitors that can be damaged by the absence of an appropriate sync signal. > >Those are fixed-frequency types, however, and they've mostly been damaged > >already, or they have a home where they are fed the correct signals. > > I've certainly seen VGA-type multisync monitors damaged due > to people trying to push the resolutions up beyond what the monitor > was meant to do. Today with all the PnP stuff it's not seen as often > as it was with DOS and the tweaking manually though. > > > >it. I agree, that IF there were such a thing as a digital-input > >monitor, which > >may exist, it might take a video signal that's digital in nature. I've said, > >however, that I've never seen one, and I've had, not hundreds, but, over a > > Looking at to references I have here, I see two monitors > right off the bat that take a TTL signal as input: both the Tandy > CM-1 and VM-1 monitors, not to mention the current crop of DVI LCD's > out there. > > Jeff > -- > Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu May 10 16:42:34 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog References: Message-ID: <003901c0d99a$1fed24c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yes, that was a monochrome display, though, wasn't it? It's likely that if it did receive a TTL-compatible signal from the video circuit, it was attenuated in the monitor interface circuitry. The Osborne used a COTS monitor and probably wouldn't have had it customed in order to save a couple of resistors. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Feldman, Robert" To: Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 3:15 PM Subject: RE: Converting TTL monitor to Analog > The Osborne 1 also used TTL-level signals for its video. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff Hellige [mailto:jhellige@earthlink.net] > Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 3:36 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Converting TTL monitor to Analog > > > Looking at to references I have here, I see two monitors > right off the bat that take a TTL signal as input: both the Tandy > CM-1 and VM-1 monitors, not to mention the current crop of DVI LCD's > out there. > > Jeff > -- > Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu May 10 16:58:55 2001 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010510140048.01cb9610@pc> Message-ID: <20010510215855.6467.qmail@web9502.mail.yahoo.com> --- John Foust wrote: > There were classic Amiga "devices" consisting of a slightly > darkened piece of plastic. Placed before a monitor displaying > a heavily flickering interlaced high-res Amiga screen, they'd > seemingly reduce the flicker-induced headache. Got one. It sort-of works. It was much less than 10% the cost of a "real" flicker-fixer (which contains enough RAM to buffer an entire frame plus circuitry to squirt out contents of said RAM at a higher scan rate). I forget what I paid for it, but it was still too much. -ethan ===== Visit "The Seventh Continent" http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu May 10 17:49:55 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: <002d01c0d999$c695bea0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010509122242.019a9d88@208.226.86.10> <5.0.0.25.2.20010510091823.01f77ae0@208.226.86.10> <001c01c0d981$4b080800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <002d01c0d999$c695bea0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: >Moreover, the sync rate has nothing at all to do with the question >of whether a >monitor's video input is "digital" or not. Yes, I realize that the sync rate doesn't have anything to do with whether a monitor is digital or not. In fact, both digital CGA monitors and analog Amiga monitors have a sync rate of just over 15 Khz. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Thu May 10 17:49:26 2001 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: Wanted to trade a VAX 4000/200 system for a KA694 cpu References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010510141225.02810e28@208.226.86.129> Message-ID: <04b901c0d9a3$77855fa0$3992a8c0@sympatico.ca> Have you any 750s ?(my vax dream machine!) or worse 780's >>> I already have an MV1, 2 MV2's and a 725. Could use a 730 as well... Regards, Heinz ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck McManis" To: Cc: Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 5:19 PM Subject: Wanted to trade a VAX 4000/200 system for a KA694 cpu > I have a VAX 4000/200 in a very unusual rack mount BA400 series cabinet. > The drives point out the front and the cards mount in the back. I do not > have the 'slides' for this chassis. I would be willing to trade it for > KA694 (VAX 4000/705A) CPU module. The 4000/200 includes a TK70 and a RF72 > disk I believe. It takes BA400 type disk/tape cards. It has 32MB of RAM and > a CXY08 async mux card. I'll pay to ship it to you on a pallet if you live > near one of Forward Air's terminals. > > Yes, I know KA694s are sold by resellers for a lot of money, and no I don't > hold out a lot of hope that someone will be interested in trading one > single card for a complete system, however I had to ask. The alternative is > to start selling VAXen on Ebay until I've made enough to pay for a 694. :-) > [The astute will wonder how many VAXen that will take, I don't know but we > just might find out...] > > --Chuck > From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu May 10 18:00:46 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: <002701c0d998$f4777620$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <01May9.153601edt.119046@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <4.3.2.7.0.20010510120920.01e404b0@pc> <002701c0d998$f4777620$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: I don't know about the rest, but Apple's DVI connector has 24 pins. I'm not sure how many are on their latest connector, the ADC. It goes back to something similar to what the NeXT did: it carries power, video, and USB through the single ADC connector to/from the LCD. Belkin makes an adapter that converts between the two though, at least for connecting DVI displays to ADC graphics cards. Jeff >What sort of digital interface would such devices use? They'd have >to have lots >of wires, e.g. 26 or so pairs, if the thing is using 24-bit color. Perish the >thought someone would use more color depth than that! It's hard to imagine >they'd do that. The number of wires that have to transport high-frequency >signal is the reason the analog is still so difficult to surpass. > >After all, a 26-pair shielded cable with an appropriate connector, made in the >US, would immediately become the most costly component in a computer >system. I >doubt a computer maker would go for that, as the 20" monitor (@~$300-$400) is >presently the most costly component. That would essentially make the 20" >display and cable more than 2/3 the cost of the computer. > >Dick -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From go at ao.com Thu May 10 18:25:58 2001 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: ECL Logic - not ten yeas old? In-Reply-To: References: <5D2A5FE013C66B44901B5A45A5304DDA0172D330@oa2-server.oa.oclc.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010510162235.0400df98@tapestry.ao.com> And before 10k ECL there was 1K ECL. A bunch of this was used on a content-addressable memory on a computer I used (and it was old then) back in the early 70s. The computer (Nebula) was built by students (under an ONR contract) in the late 60s at Oregon State University. I still have some of the parts somewhere... The CAM used basic nand/nor logic elements in ceramic flat-packs and 14 pin dips. Parts were hand-selected to be sub 3ns gate delays (if memory serves) as the stated prop delays were a bit higher than that. Stuff ran HOT! And needed several weird power supplies (at least weird with respect to common 5v stuff of the time.) -Gary At 21:07 5/10/2001 +0100, you wrote: > > > > http://www.semtech.com/pdf/ate/ecl_dc_specs.pdf > > > > Its rather new High speed low noise logic. > >As is well known here, I can't read .pdf files, but if they are claiming >that ECL is a modern logic family, then I have to disagree. > >I am pretty sure 10K ECL was available in the early 1970s, and there was >an earlier series (300 series) before that. > >Heck, I was designing with ECL (10K and 100K) 10 years ago, and it wasn't >new then. > >-tony From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu May 10 18:37:01 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: MicroVMS 4.5 distro available Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010510163442.027c8b90@208.226.86.129> I have what purports to be a MicroVMS 4.5 distribution tape. (on a TK50 natch) If you want it, it will cost you $4.00 in postage to get it to you. Send me an email off list. This could be useful for a MicroVAX I I suspect. On an unrelated note I found the install notes for the Ultrix distribution I found and it's targed to a MicroVAX 3500/3600. The release is 2.2-1 with an upgrade to 2.3 --Chuck From ken at seefried.com Thu May 10 18:32:59 2001 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: National Semi 32000 ICs available Message-ID: <20010510233259.32409.qmail@mail.seefried.com> I've recently come into a cache of National Semiconductor 32000 series ICs that I would be willing to part with for someone who is repairing something vintage that uses them. Contact me with what you can use and what you will use it for. The part #s are: ns32301 ns32302 ns32303 ns32081 ns16032 ns32008 ns16082 ns32082 ns32332 ns32382 BTW: If anyone has any ns32000 stuff they want to get rid of, I'd like to hear about it. Especially 32532 CPUs and 32381 FPUs. Ken Seefried, CISSP From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu May 10 18:38:45 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: Wanted to trade a VAX 4000/200 system for a KA694 cpu In-Reply-To: <04b901c0d9a3$77855fa0$3992a8c0@sympatico.ca> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010510141225.02810e28@208.226.86.129> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010510163811.02a0ca38@208.226.86.10> No 700 series, just the Q-bus ones and a few singleboards (well a bunch-o-vlc's for the cluster project) --Chuck At 06:49 PM 5/10/2001 -0400, you wrote: >Have you any 750s ?(my vax dream machine!) or worse >780's >>> I already have an MV1, 2 MV2's and a 725. >Could use a 730 as well... >Regards, >Heinz >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Chuck McManis" >To: >Cc: >Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 5:19 PM >Subject: Wanted to trade a VAX 4000/200 system for a KA694 cpu > > > > I have a VAX 4000/200 in a very unusual rack mount BA400 series cabinet. > > The drives point out the front and the cards mount in the back. I do not > > have the 'slides' for this chassis. I would be willing to trade it for > > KA694 (VAX 4000/705A) CPU module. The 4000/200 includes a TK70 and a RF72 > > disk I believe. It takes BA400 type disk/tape cards. It has 32MB of RAM >and > > a CXY08 async mux card. I'll pay to ship it to you on a pallet if you live > > near one of Forward Air's terminals. > > > > Yes, I know KA694s are sold by resellers for a lot of money, and no I >don't > > hold out a lot of hope that someone will be interested in trading one > > single card for a complete system, however I had to ask. The alternative >is > > to start selling VAXen on Ebay until I've made enough to pay for a 694. >:-) > > [The astute will wonder how many VAXen that will take, I don't know but we > > just might find out...] > > > > --Chuck > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu May 10 18:40:45 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: Docs for DRV-11? Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010510163913.02a0ccb0@208.226.86.129> Does anyone have docs on a DRV-11? (16 bit Parallel I/O). I bought one on Ebay (perhaps it will help in my quest to kludge a cheap SCSI controller for Q-bus vaxen :-) and now I need some docs for it... I'll check the handbook when I get home too. --Chuck From bkr at WildHareComputers.com Thu May 10 19:51:39 2001 From: bkr at WildHareComputers.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: Mechanical analog computer history...Heathkit References: <3AFAFEE3.57102112@home.com> Message-ID: <005301c0d9b4$8a8422b0$0100a8c0@dellhare> I found a pretty good EC-1 description at: http://www.heathkit-museum.com/computers/ec-1.html Bruce ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Coward" To: Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 2:49 PM Subject: Re: Mechanical analog computer history...Heathkit > On Wed, 9 May 2001, John wrote: > > Doug...? > > Sorry, I'm on digest. > > On Wed, 9 May 2001, Bruce Ray wrote: > > ...and who has information on that wonderfully-nostalgic ol' > > Heathkit analog computer that existed in the '60s?? > > I could probably answer most questions. I have two EC-1s. > > > It was the EC-1 that I was thinking of, and was hundreds of dollars in the > > '60s as I recall. Any cover-page art scanned for that to take me back a few > > decades..? > > I have both manuals for EC-1 on CD. I could send you a scan > of the cover from both manuals, but there is not a picture of > the computer on the covers. The EC-1 first appeared in the 1960 > catalog. Unfortunity, I can seem to find any of Heath catalogs > after 1959. > > On Wed, 9 May 2001, ip500 wrote: > > The Heath ANALOG COMPUTER model ES-400 circa 1957] > > The Heath Electronic Analog Computer (ES-400 is the model > number of just the cabinet kit) was advertised in their catalogs > from 1956 to 1959. I have about half of the kit manuals for > this computer, and no computer. > > On Wed, 9 May 2001, Bruce Ray wrote: > > I'll ask, John; what -is- the *exact* Heathkit part number for the EC-1 > > computer assembly and user manuals? > > When contacting Heath manual replacement service, you just need > the kit model number. > > Regards, > --Doug > ========================================= > Doug Coward > @ home in Poulsbo, WA > > Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center > http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog > ========================================= From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu May 10 19:06:52 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: ECL Logic - not ten yeas old? Message-ID: <009b01c0d9ae$d22aefa0$bd749a8d@ajp166> It is indeed old. Another source of ECL (ECL10K) was RP04/5/6 disks that are definately over 10 years old and I have a bunch of 10113, 10120, 10125 and the venerable 11c90 and 95h90 divide by 10 ECL counters from the early 70s (spares for my yasu 355 350mhz frequency counter). The common voltage used was -5.2 though there were -3.2 and +2 and the other was -2 and +3.2 so the transistion voltages were near or around 0V. If memory serves the infamous Cray YMP was majorly ECL for speed. Allison From foo at siconic.com Thu May 10 19:02:44 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: Classic Computer website In-Reply-To: <3AFAEB7A.DE4CF658@greenbelt.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 May 2001, Eric Chomko wrote: > I was looking over the classiccmp website at: > http://www.blinkenlights.com/classiccmp/faq.txt > > There is reference to a website at: > http://haliotis.bothell.washington.edu/classiccmp > > This site is inactive or otherwise not reachable. Has > it moved? This was the original ClassicCmp web page, when the list was started by Bill Whitson. It's been long gone for a couple years now. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From broth at heathers.stdio.com Thu May 10 20:17:49 2001 From: broth at heathers.stdio.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: 'Machine that Changed the World' In-Reply-To: <3AFAF931.7070306@olf.com> References: <3AFAF931.7070306@olf.com> Message-ID: <01051021183900.00789@fatty> Ram, Thanks. Looking forward to it. How did the SUN work out for you? Brian. On Thu, 10 May 2001, you wrote: > Brian, > > I havent forgotten you. The move has been really slow, so once I finish > moving over to my new place, I will send you a copy. If you beat me to > it, then I would love to get a fresh copy as I am missing some minutes > in the later series on my tape.... > > Ram From blstuart at bellsouth.net Thu May 10 20:14:28 2001 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: 'Machine that Changed the World' In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 10 May 2001 16:14:31 -0400 . Message-ID: In message , "brian roth" writes: > This is actually where I started my search. This has now become a quest for > me. I did get a response from someone on the list who said they had the whole > series on one tape but I haven't heard back from him. A friend of mine who be >sides being a VMS guru does audio/video editing, said his father had connectio >ns at a local PBS station and he would see what he could find for me. If I do >find it, I will definitely make it available to the list. I don't remember if I ever responded about this, but I do have a copy taped off the air. I did it in SP mode so it takes 3 VHS tapes. On the one hand it's not bad for being taped off the air, and on the other, it's not as good as a properly made copy. If nobody can find a proper copy,* I'll be glad to make copies for people who want them. * I would not be surprised if a proper copy is nearly impossible to find. There was a request from the ACM (who was the prime backer of the program) looking for a copy since nobody there seemed to have kept one. This was a couple of years ago, but I've seen no indication that they're making copies available. Brian L. Stuart From hans at Huebner.ORG Thu May 10 21:40:19 2001 From: hans at Huebner.ORG (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hans_H=FCbner?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: MicroVMS 4.5 distro available In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010510163442.027c8b90@208.226.86.129> Message-ID: Hi Chuck, If the tapes are not gone, I'll take them. I can provide you with an address in NYC to ship to (I'm living in Berlin). Let me know. Also, if you get too many offers for KA694 CPU's, let me know. My 4000/500A would gladly receive an update. Thanks in advance, Hans On Thu, 10 May 2001, Chuck McManis wrote: > I have what purports to be a MicroVMS 4.5 distribution tape. (on a TK50 > natch) If you want it, it will cost you $4.00 in postage to get it to you. > Send me an email off list. This could be useful for a MicroVAX I I suspect. > > On an unrelated note I found the install notes for the Ultrix distribution > I found and it's targed to a MicroVAX 3500/3600. The release is 2.2-1 with > an upgrade to 2.3 > > --Chuck > > > -- finger hans@huebner.org for details From aw288 at osfn.org Thu May 10 22:09:12 2001 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: VCF East 1.0 - July 28/29 in Marlborough, Massachusetts! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I'm assuming that The Retro-Computing Society of Rhode Island > (http://www.osfn.org/rcs/) is helping with/participating? TCMHC has pointed > them at some classic mini-systems that we couldn't help preserve. They've > done a great job of picking up the ball and making sure they didn;t get > scrapped. We will bw there, in white, grey, green, black, and LOTS of white and red blinkenlights. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Thu May 10 22:17:45 2001 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: Mechanical analog computer history In-Reply-To: <3AF9CE85.55F966AC@home.com> Message-ID: > In my continuing effort to keep the discussion from > becoming too digital, I want to point out a wonderful > article I just found. This article cover the history > of mechanical analog computers in general and > specifically the mechanical analog fire control > computers developed by the Ford Instruments Company > from it's founding in 1915 up to the dawn of electronic > analog computing in the 1940s. Hello, I just found some TM 9 tech manuals for the M9 and M10 directors (the big guys that shot down many V1 buzz bombs, along with SCR-584 radars). I am going to scan them shortly. Interested in a copy of what I have? Its not a complete set, but it is a start. I have been prodded to move up the fire control and gyro manuals up in the "to scan" queue. And I know this is a long shot, but do you have any docs on the TDC (Torpedo Data Computer) Mk 3? The Pampanito folks are looking for an original, as their black and white copy does not have the color coded diagrams. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From mbg at world.std.com Thu May 10 22:19:45 2001 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: In search of 20ma to eia converter Message-ID: <200105110319.XAA03434@world.std.com> I have an old serial paper tape reader which runs with 20ma and would like to use it to archive all my pdp-11 (and some pdp-8) paper tapes. But I need a converter... Can anyone help? Any pointers to a simple schematic? Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From aw288 at osfn.org Thu May 10 22:21:52 2001 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: Mechanical analog computer history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry, people, that last message was private, not the list. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From vaxman at qwest.net Thu May 10 22:32:53 2001 From: vaxman at qwest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: Docs for DRV-11? In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010510163913.02a0ccb0@208.226.86.129> Message-ID: I've got a printset and docs around somewhere... I'll dig them out and make a scan... clint On Thu, 10 May 2001, Chuck McManis wrote: > Does anyone have docs on a DRV-11? (16 bit Parallel I/O). I bought one on > Ebay (perhaps it will help in my quest to kludge a cheap SCSI controller > for Q-bus vaxen :-) and now I need some docs for it... I'll check the > handbook when I get home too. > --Chuck > > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu May 10 23:06:03 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: Docs for DRV-11? References: Message-ID: <001801c0d9cf$b221ef80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> How will the DRV-11 help you hook into MSCP? It's a good and VERY flexible card, but not intended for use as a file device. It does, of course, support DMA. IIRC (The DRV11 is the only Qbus card with which I have any experience.) you need a pretty sophisiticated driver to work under the VAX file system. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clint Wolff (VAX collector)" To: Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 9:32 PM Subject: Re: Docs for DRV-11? > > I've got a printset and docs around somewhere... I'll dig them out > and make a scan... > > clint > > On Thu, 10 May 2001, Chuck McManis wrote: > > > Does anyone have docs on a DRV-11? (16 bit Parallel I/O). I bought one on > > Ebay (perhaps it will help in my quest to kludge a cheap SCSI controller > > for Q-bus vaxen :-) and now I need some docs for it... I'll check the > > handbook when I get home too. > > --Chuck > > > > > > > > From dburrows at netpath.net Thu May 10 23:06:31 2001 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: In search of 20ma to eia converter Message-ID: <018901c0d9cf$c707f8e0$b8241bce@L166> Take a look at ftp://zane.brouhaha.com/pub/dan/20ma.gif Dan -----Original Message----- From: Megan To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, May 10, 2001 11:35 PM Subject: In search of 20ma to eia converter I have an old serial paper tape reader which runs with 20ma and would like to use it to archive all my pdp-11 (and some pdp-8) paper tapes. But I need a converter... Can anyone help? Any pointers to a simple schematic? Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From doug at blinkenlights.com Thu May 10 23:32:29 2001 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: Digital Storage: Computer Age Gets a Valhalla In-Reply-To: <018901c0d9cf$c707f8e0$b8241bce@L166> Message-ID: Good NY Times article on Len Shustek and the gang (free registration needed): http://www.nytimes.com/2001/05/10/technology/10MUSE.html Exerpt: << TWELVE years ago, Keith Uncapher, a computer scientist at the RAND Corporation, was shocked to discover that the Johnniac, a behemoth of a computer he had helped develop in the 1950's, had been left out to rust in a parking lot behind the Museum of Science and Industry in Los Angeles. After some hasty negotiations, Mr. Uncapher managed to rescue the computer before it was trucked off to a junkyard. Now the one-of-a-kind Johnniac, named for the computer pioneer John von Neumann, is safely ensconced 350 miles north, at the Computer Museum History Center here. >> From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 10 23:52:06 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: ECL Logic - not ten yeas old? In-Reply-To: Re: ECL Logic - not ten yeas old? (ajp166) References: <009b01c0d9ae$d22aefa0$bd749a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <15099.28662.75025.534821@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 10, ajp166 wrote: > If memory serves the infamous Cray YMP was > majorly ECL for speed. Lots of Cray processors were/are ECL. The Cray-1 family were all ECL...as were all the X/MP and YMP (YMP proper, not just YMP architecture, some of which are CMOS) machines. More modern smaller Cray PVP machines (J90, etc) are CMOS, while the bigger ones are ECL. -Dave McGuire From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 11 01:37:53 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: In search of 20ma to eia converter In-Reply-To: <200105110319.XAA03434@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 May 2001, Megan wrote: > I have an old serial paper tape reader which runs with > 20ma and would like to use it to archive all my pdp-11 > (and some pdp-8) paper tapes. But I need a converter... > Can anyone help? Any pointers to a simple schematic? As a quick and dirty alternative: The original IBM asynch adapter for the PC and XT was jumperable to operate as EIA OR 20 ma! You could use a PC with one jumpered 20ma plus one "regular" serial card as your converter. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 From GOOI at oce.nl Fri May 11 01:47:12 2001 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: Docs for DRV-11? Message-ID: Hi Chuck. Some weeks ago David has set up a website with some scan of PDP Field Maintenance Print Sets. On of them is the DRV-11 FMPS MP00054. It is one of the smaller files with its 3.6 Mb ;-) [600 dpi fine quality scans] The link is: http://www.mainecoon.com/classiccmp suc6, Henk Gooijen, PDP-11 collector Sneak-peek of retro-computing: http://home.12move.nl/~sh416008 -----Original Message----- > From: Chuck McManis [mailto:cmcmanis@mcmanis.com] > Sent: vrijdag 11 mei 2001 1:41 > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Docs for DRV-11? > > Does anyone have docs on a DRV-11? (16 bit Parallel I/O). I > bought one on > Ebay (perhaps it will help in my quest to kludge a cheap SCSI > controller > for Q-bus vaxen :-) and now I need some docs for it... I'll check the > handbook when I get home too. > --Chuck From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Fri May 11 03:16:25 2001 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0007A26F@BUSH02> >> which defines where you can display pixels. If you attempt to display more >> pixels on a line than there are holes in the mask, then you will get >> banding artifacts. > > I've seen no evidence of this. If this were the case, then the fact that many > display systems use inexpensive 1000 ppm oscillators would cause enough > variation that it would be obvious on those monitors having this feature. I have, many times. It's not so visible on modern monitors but is clearly visible on domestic receivers when a frequency graticule is displayed. It's sometimes refered to as Moire effect. Lee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The information contained in this email may contain information which is confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. ________________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses, by Star Internet, delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit: http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Fri May 11 03:27:10 2001 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0007A270@BUSH02> What sort of digital interface would such devices use? They'd have to have lots of wires, e.g. 26 or so pairs, if the thing is using 24-bit color. Perish the thought someone would use more color depth than that! It's hard to imagine they'd do that. The number of wires that have to transport high-frequency signal is the reason the analog is still so difficult to surpass. Not if a serial video bitstream were used. It's actually easier to use this than an analogue feed over any significant distance. Lee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The information contained in this email may contain information which is confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. ________________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses, by Star Internet, delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit: http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp From optimus at canit.se Thu May 10 18:21:53 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010510140048.01cb9610@pc> Message-ID: <1082.531T2650T216011optimus@canit.se> John Foust skrev: >At 12:14 PM 5/10/01 -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: >>Well, you may be onto something, but it was widely accepted back in the >>'70's that a human couldn't see the flicker in an interlaced TV picture, and >>they certainly wouldn't see flicker in 60 Hz refresh of a text/graphic >>display. >Did I miss the discussion of the variability of phosphor persistence >and monitor color temperature, and how it affects perception of flicker? >There were classic Amiga "devices" consisting of a slightly >darkened piece of plastic. Placed before a monitor displaying >a heavily flickering interlaced high-res Amiga screen, they'd >seemingly reduce the flicker-induced headache. These existed for most other systems as well, their intended purpose also being that of preventing radiation. Another classic Amiga device was a Commodore monitor with slow phosphor which wouldn't go out between interlaced refreshes. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. G? med i SUGA, Swedish Usergroup of Amiga! WWW: http://swedish.usergroup.amiga.tm/ BBS: 08-6582572, telnet://sua.ath.cx:42512 From optimus at canit.se Thu May 10 18:26:34 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: <002701c0d998$f4777620$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <1227.531T1700T265641optimus@canit.se> Richard Erlacher skrev: >What sort of digital interface would such devices use? They'd have to have >lots of wires, e.g. 26 or so pairs, if the thing is using 24-bit color. >Perish the thought someone would use more color depth than that! It's hard >to imagine they'd do that. The number of wires that have to transport >high-frequency signal is the reason the analog is still so difficult to >surpass. >After all, a 26-pair shielded cable with an appropriate connector, made in >the US, would immediately become the most costly component in a computer >system. I doubt a computer maker would go for that, as the 20" monitor >(@~$300-$400) is presently the most costly component. That would essentially >make the 20" display and cable more than 2/3 the cost of the computer. But isn't the digital signal less dependent on absolute signal integrity? After all, if there can only be two levels, making out the difference can't be all that difficult. This also seems to hold true WRT my successful use of long, thin, unshielded cables for EGA and CGA monitors without any ghosting. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. I dunno, I dream in Perl sometimes... --Larry Wall in <8538@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV> From optimus at canit.se Thu May 10 18:47:03 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1333.531T150T473491optimus@canit.se> Sellam Ismail skrev: >On 9 May 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> Really, asd long as the reproduction is identical in every sense, why >> would it matter when it was built? I wouldn't really mind replacing my >> 1992 Amiga 4000 with a freshly built replica. As long as it looked and >> behaved like my current A4000, but didn't consist of eight-year-old >> hardware, the new model would be superior. Likewise, why would it >> matter whether your issue of X-men was printed in 1996 instead of >> 1963? Is it the actual reading material or 30-year old paper you're >> looking for? OTOH, packaging is important to me, and so is the >> condition of the equipment I get. I find aesthetic pleasure in the >> design of the computer and its packaging. I do, however, not find >> aesthetic pleasure in the sight of old plastic. New plastic works just >> as well, and so do new circuits. >How would you feel about a reproduction of a famous painting, like say the >"Mona Lisa"? Nothing wrong with that. Why should Mona Lisa only be the right of rich people? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Eccovi una delle sigle francesi dedicate a questo shojo... come, non e' uno shojo? Andate a spiegarlo ai francesi... questa e' una canzone da shojo, quindi per me Goldrake e' uno shojo :p Tacchan om den franska signaturmelodin till Goldorak (Grendizer) From optimus at canit.se Thu May 10 18:35:15 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010509122242.019a9d88@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <1986.531T750T354655optimus@canit.se> Chuck McManis skrev: >>How do you define resolution at the monitor level? I've always been able to >>get entirely different resolutions out of monitors, and why would they >>disagree? If it's an analogue signal, wouldn't the monitor just sweep along >>and project whatever is input? >Color monitors have a color mask, and that color mask has a 'dot pitch' >which defines where you can display pixels. If you attempt to display more >pixels on a line than there are holes in the mask, then you will get >banding artifacts. Perhaps I'm being a brute, but according to my definition, that is all right. As long as the monitor doesn't give up the ghost or loses sync, I don't mind how bad the image looks. Not in a clinical sense, anyway. >Next there is frequency response. The amplifiers that connect to the color >guns have something called a 'slew rate' which is the rate at which they >can change their output color. If you put to many pixels side by side then >you will start seeing color degradation due to the fact that the amplifier >can't get to the new color fast enough. If you display several columns of >vertical white lines on a black background you will see (in cheaper >monitors) that the leading edge of the while line is not white, its gray. >And as you increase the number of lines the white lines will get grayer and >eventually you will have just a gray screen. Also acceptable. >You "can" drive monitors all over the map, eventually you will destroy them >if you allow the horizontal output driver to over heat. However, getting an >acceptable signal out of one is more constrained. But a pixel rate is meaningless without an accompanying sync rate. When they say 800?560, they must intend at a particular frequency, right? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. If I don't document something, it's usually either for a good reason, or a bad reason. In this case it's a good reason. :-) --Larry Wall (perl) in <1992Jan17.005405.16806@netlabs.com> From optimus at canit.se Thu May 10 19:02:28 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3539.531T1400T625373optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >> I don't really understand why people care about originality. Isn't that >> mainly a metaphysical matter? Or am I being too post-modern? >It depends on what you mean by 'originality'. I'm sorry, I can't find the right word... >Suppose you took the PDP8/e CPU and built an exact copy using modern TTL >chips, etc (I'll neglect for the moment that Compaq's lawyers would >probably object to this :-)). To me, that would be as useful, and as >interesting as the oriignal PDP8/e that's on my desk. I could get the >tech manuals off the shelf, clip the logicdart onto various IC pins, run >programs, and see what happened. Sooner or later, you'd probably have to replace chips anyway. >Now, suppose you built a PDP8/e compatible CPU in an FPGA. That's a >perfectly reasonable thing to do, but to me it would not be as 'useful' >or 'interesting' as the real PDP8/e or a chipwise clone of it. I couldn't >do the sort of things that I wanted to do to it. Other people -- those >that are primarily software hackers, presumably could use a >PDP8/e-in-an-FPGA instead of the real PDP8/e. Naturally, I assumed an exact replica, or at least exact in every sense which would matter. Selling an FPGA-based Imsai to you would be silly, but apparently this Imsai is built in the very same way as they were in the 70s. OTOH, I can't help but think that the manufacturer is being a bit dishonest, since he's deliberately using (if I've been following this correctly) chips with datestamps from the 70s. That would mean that he actually thinks of age as something important, instead of just using whatever chip he most easily could get. OTOH, if you're choosing an old Imsai over a new one, you're essentially collecting dust. >> Really, asd long as the reproduction is identical in every sense, why would >> it matter when it was built? I wouldn't really mind replacing my 1992 Amiga >> 4000 with a freshly built replica. As long as it looked and behaved like my >> current A4000, but didn't consist of eight-year-old hardware, the new model >> would be superior. >Why? Old chips (meaning those made in the last 30 years or so) seem to be >pretty reliable most of the time... I agree that there has occured some kind natural selection WRT those chips, but... Eventually things become worn out, even solder points, traces and joints in electronics. >> Likewise, why would it matter whether your issue of X-men was printed in >> 1996 instead of 1963? Is it the actual reading material or 30-year old >> paper you're looking for? >True, which is why I spend far too much money on Lindsay Publications >reprints of old books on radio, electical stuff, engineering, etc. The >_information_ is what matters to me. >But, I would not be happy paying a high price for a 'rare book' and then >finding out it was a Lindsay reprint that is still 'in print'. Because I >have then not got what I paid for. OTOH, why would it be rare in the first place if it's still "in print"? >> OTOH, packaging is important to me, and so is the condition of the >> equipment I get. I find aesthetic pleasure in the design of the computer >> and its >I get my 'aesthetic pleasure' at a somewhat lower level :-). Looking at >the _beautiful_ electronic designs in some of these old machines. And to >do that doesn't depend on a perfect case. I'm sorry that I can't make out such things. I'm a software brute. =) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. I dunno, I dream in Perl sometimes... --Larry Wall in <8538@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV> From optimus at canit.se Thu May 10 18:14:49 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <985.531T2450T146447optimus@canit.se> XenoSoft skrev: >On Wed, 9 May 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: >> monitor. It's doubtful that the II would do be able to do 800 x 600 in >> it's vertical freq. range, which is why NEC lists it as a max. >> resolution of 800 x 560. I believe at that resolution they list it at a >> vert. freq. of 56 Hz. Even if it could take the vertical freq. low >> enough to get to 800 x 600 I wouldn't want to have to look at it. 56 Hz >> will flicker enough as it is. >Once, in the 80's I tried to use one at 800 x 600. (Brand new AST 286 >with Everex VGA that had just come out, running Ventura) >Keep epileptics away from THAT flicker. Bah, I spent my entire youth in front of a television watching my Amiga's 50 Hz interlaced signal, through RF! No fancy CVBS or Scart RGB here. Then, when I got a proper monitor, I started running 896?600 at 72 Hz interlaced. =) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. I use OpenBSD 'coz it has a cool blowfish logo. The other BSDs look satanic. - Anonymous Coward From optimus at canit.se Thu May 10 19:31:58 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On Topic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1816.531T2900T916125optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >> On Tue, 8 May 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: >> > No, I don't feel that they are. I would still call them >> > reproductions. The time-frame has as much to do with it as any other >> > aspect. Your part might be perfect in every detail, but it wasn't >> > manufactured in the same time period as the original. Plus in the >> > example stated above, it isn't even the same manufacturer. Is a >> > Mark-8, assmembled from era-parts 30 years after the builder's >> > article still an original Mark-8? >> >> Hmmm... As long as they're useful, does the aforementioned matter? >To me : No and yes :-) >No, in that it is still as hackable as an 'original'. I could enjoy it >just as much >Yes, in that it would be worth less if I ever had to resell it, and >presumably it could be 'more common' than an original. So I'd expect to >pay less for it, and would feel cheated if I paid for an original and got >a reproduction. But that is only because others invest a particular value in it. Granted, if I find a book which I'd like to read, I would expect to pay more if it was the first edition as opposed to a reprint. OTOH, the reaosn I expect that is because I know that some people find particular (intangible) value in the first edition, value which I myself wouldn't recognise. But then again, I don't set the prices. The reason for which I'd expect to pay more would be the price tag, not the perceived value. Given a choice between a new edition and an old, I'd choose whicever would be in better connection and/or cheaper. IOW, in a perfect world, there would be no need to state whether it's a reprint or an original edition, because they would be equal. Agreed, stating that a replica is the original is dishonest, but the question is why we even bother. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Thu May 10 19:45:51 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1184.531T2550T1056319optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: [Very nice explanations regarding the definitions of TTL and ECL snipped] >In the context of monitors, it means that the monitor has digital inputs >using those levels. In general, you get a greater video bandwidth using >ECL signals than TTL signals, so ECL input monitors were generally used >for the high-resolution monochrome monitors (just white or black pixels) >on workstations. The Xerox Daybreak monitor, for example. Or the Atari TTM194. BTW, we're having a little problem interfacing an Amiga to a Telenova monitor (a funny beast, it's got a 15 KHz digital input and a 35 KHz analogue one). The Amiga video port features both analogue and digital outputs, but the digital ones are only RGBI (One bit for each colour plus an intensity bit), yielding (according to Tony) only 16 colours, while the Amiga (in this case an A2000) may output as many as 64 colours. This makes palette settings quite adventurous, and games get an entirely different look. How would you go about generating double digital RGB signals and a full set of 64 colours? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. A bore is a man who deprives you of solitude without providing you with company. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri May 11 04:58:01 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: Micro International 5250 Gateway In-Reply-To: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0007A26F@BUSH02> Message-ID: It may be too late for me to get more, but I found a case of Micro International 5250 Gateway products, looks like an ISA card and software for a PC to talk to a twinax AS400 system. I have a couple, may be able to dig out more, any interest? From foxvideo at wincom.net Fri May 11 05:32:59 2001 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: Micro International 5250 Gateway In-Reply-To: References: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0007A26F@BUSH02> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010511063046.00a56bb0@mail.wincom.net> At 02:58 AM 11/05/2001 -0700, you wrote: >It may be too late for me to get more, but I found a case of Micro >International 5250 Gateway products, looks like an ISA card and software >for a PC to talk to a twinax AS400 system. I have a couple, may be able to >dig out more, any interest? Yes, I would be interested. I am trying to revive an old System 36. Charlie Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor ON N8Y 3J8 foxvideo@wincom.net Check out: Camcorder Kindergarten at http://chasfoxvideo.com From at258 at osfn.org Fri May 11 07:57:21 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: VCF East 1.0 - July 28/29 in Marlborough, Massachusetts! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There might be some other people there, too. ;) On Thu, 10 May 2001, William Donzelli wrote: > > I'm assuming that The Retro-Computing Society of Rhode Island > > (http://www.osfn.org/rcs/) is helping with/participating? TCMHC has pointed > > them at some classic mini-systems that we couldn't help preserve. They've > > done a great job of picking up the ball and making sure they didn;t get > > scrapped. > > We will bw there, in white, grey, green, black, and LOTS of > white and red blinkenlights. > > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From harryb at charter.net Fri May 11 08:53:43 2001 From: harryb at charter.net (Harry Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: NEC Color Graphics Board for early multi-synch References: <200105101039.FAA33557@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <004601c0da21$cb16aa10$90d2d818@harry> I've been reading the various threads with some interest for the past few weeks. I've been working in the field since the mid-80's, but no programming experience, sadly. I have always been an equipment junkie, and something of a packrat. Which leads to this: can someone make use of an early NEC Multisynch Color Graphics Board (GB-1)? It is complete with a daughter board containing a Z80, and the memory appears to be fully populated. Also have the manual and a copy of Dr Halo with manual. Three disks (51/4 naturally) appear to have all the files. It's a full size board, with Tseng processor chips. I'd like to get a few bucks for the lot, to pay for storage, or whatever. Mailing would be from MA. The board has the nine pin connector people here have mentioned, in addition to two "reserved" jacks. Manual is quite complete, with pinouts, etc. The daughterboard is the CMII, which gave the board full Hercules compatibility. Unfortunately, the unit is untested, as I have no equipment available to try it out. Any sale would be as-is. Interesting item, and I bet it was expensive. Also have an Imagraph SCGA6 board with matching cable and manual. Anyone know what this was used with? If I ever knew, have forgotten... Harry From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Fri May 11 09:00:23 2001 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: Free stuff, Round 2 Message-ID: Hello all, After the success of my first batch of goodies, I have unearthed the following, and offer it up, free, but you pay shipping. I realize on some of these items it may only be a couple of bucks, but multiply that times the number of items, and it comes out to a number I don't want to pay :-). The drill is, they go to the first taker, then I will calculate shipping, and you can pay by Money Order (International Money Order in US $ for overseas), or PayPal. I will ship to any address that the US Postal Service will ship to... Some of this stuff is not quite 10+ years old, but it is at least computer-related... Also, reply to me OFF-LIST, so as not to clog the list, and since I get the digest, I wouldn't see your replies until sometime tomorrow... Without further ado: Books - Zilog Z8 Microcontrollers User's Manual - Zilog Discrete Z8 Microcontrollers Product Specifications Databook - The C Programming Language (yes, it's K&R!) - A Postscript Cookbook (author: Barry Thomas) - Radio Shack: Understanding Solid-State Electronics - Microprocessor Programming for Computer Hobbyists (All examples written in a language based on PL/M) - Motorola MC68307 User's Manual - Motorola MC68HC705K1 Technical Data - Motorola MC68HC705J1A Technical Data - Motorola MC68HC705P9 Technical Data (2 copies) - Motorola MC68HC705C8 Technical Data - Making CP/M-80 Work for You (mostly a user's guide, no programming info) - Seagate Wren 7 ST41200N (94601-12G) Product Manual - Digital Microcomputer Processors 1978-1979 (covers LSI-11 and PDP-11) - Digital Microcomputer Interfaces handbook 1980 - Introduction to the PDP-11 and it's Assembly Language (Author: Thomas S. Frank) - Marshall McLuhan "War and Peace in the Global Village" (Wired reprint) - Marshall McLuhan "The Medium is the Massage" (Wired reprint) - Radio Shack: Building Power Supplies - Michael Abrash "Zen of Code Optimization" - Java Threads (O'Reilly -- older, covers Java 1.0.2, but applicable to 1.1) - Java Beans (O'Reilly -- older, covers 1.1) - Java Network Programming (O'Reilly -- older, covers 1.1) Hardware - Tandy Portable Computer Acoustic Coupler 2 (Cat. No. 26-3818) - Tandy (I think) cable -- 8 pin DIN to two modular phone plugs - Compaq memory board, "32-bit 6-socket memory expansion board". Proprietary slot, 4 of the 6 sockets filled. Silkscreen says "spare No. 116803-001", and "diagram no. 001377", and "assembly no 001376". Back is silk-screened "Board no. 001378-001 A/W Rev E Fab Rev E" From ncherry at home.com Fri May 11 09:12:57 2001 From: ncherry at home.com (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: System 36 Rescue? References: Message-ID: <3AFBF369.F18BE5C5@home.com> Will Jennings wrote: > > Its cousin is *not* the AS/400... the AS/400 and System/38 are cousins, not > the S/36... The S/36 is, to quote IBM, "an enhanced S/34 instruction > processor with up to 7MB of main storage." It is a damn nifty, bulletproof > box though, I own 3 of them and parts of at least 3 others.. Oh, thanks, I always thought of it as a System/36 cousin because of the 5250 terminal communications (I know it's really part of the SNA). My strenghts are not in IBM big iron. -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) From chomko at greenbelt.com Fri May 11 09:17:17 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: In search of 20ma to eia converter References: Message-ID: <3AFBF46D.E03F8CDE@greenbelt.com> "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > On Thu, 10 May 2001, Megan wrote: > > I have an old serial paper tape reader which runs with > > 20ma and would like to use it to archive all my pdp-11 > > (and some pdp-8) paper tapes. But I need a converter... > > Can anyone help? Any pointers to a simple schematic? > > As a quick and dirty alternative: > The original IBM asynch adapter for the PC and XT was jumperable to > operate as EIA OR 20 ma! You could use a PC with one jumpered 20ma plus > one "regular" serial card as your converter. > This is also the quickest way to connect a TTY (20ma) to modem (RS-232); by using a computer (PC) in the middle. Both schemes require a little software. In the case of a tape reader, you must poll the 20 ma port and when data is on it transfer it to the serial port (one way). In the case of the latter (TTY/modem), you have to poll both ports and when data is present, send it to the other port. Both schemes are byte oriented but work as line buffers due to the nature of the way devices operate. Eric > > -- > Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com > XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com > PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 > Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 From foo at siconic.com Fri May 11 08:37:31 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:15 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: <3539.531T1400T625373optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 11 May 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Naturally, I assumed an exact replica, or at least exact in every > sense which would matter. Selling an FPGA-based Imsai to you would be > silly, but apparently this Imsai is built in the very same way as they > were in the 70s. OTOH, I can't help but think that the manufacturer is I think you are referring to the Mark-8 kit being sold on eBay here, not the IMSAI-2. > being a bit dishonest, since he's deliberately using (if I've been > following this correctly) chips with datestamps from the 70s. That ALso, the kit is being sold with just the boards, and the buyer needs to find the properly date-stamped chips to build it. > would mean that he actually thinks of age as something important, > instead of just using whatever chip he most easily could get. OTOH, if > you're choosing an old Imsai over a new one, you're essentially > collecting dust. No, you're collecting something historic, which is what we as collectors have deemed computers from that era. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From chomko at greenbelt.com Fri May 11 09:32:23 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:16 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On References: <1333.531T150T473491optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3AFBF7F7.BF24C0E6@greenbelt.com> Iggy Drougge wrote: > Sellam Ismail skrev: > > >On 9 May 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > > >> Really, asd long as the reproduction is identical in every sense, why > >> would it matter when it was built? I wouldn't really mind replacing my > >> 1992 Amiga 4000 with a freshly built replica. As long as it looked and > >> behaved like my current A4000, but didn't consist of eight-year-old > >> hardware, the new model would be superior. Likewise, why would it > >> matter whether your issue of X-men was printed in 1996 instead of > >> 1963? Is it the actual reading material or 30-year old paper you're > >> looking for? OTOH, packaging is important to me, and so is the > >> condition of the equipment I get. I find aesthetic pleasure in the > >> design of the computer and its packaging. I do, however, not find > >> aesthetic pleasure in the sight of old plastic. New plastic works just > >> as well, and so do new circuits. > > >How would you feel about a reproduction of a famous painting, like say the > >"Mona Lisa"? > > Nothing wrong with that. Why should Mona Lisa only be the right of rich > people? > Right you are! Everyone should own the Mona Lisa for 15 minutes of their life :) Eric > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > Eccovi una delle sigle francesi dedicate a questo shojo... come, non e' uno > shojo? Andate a spiegarlo ai francesi... questa e' una canzone da shojo, > quindi per me Goldrake e' uno shojo :p > Tacchan om den franska signaturmelodin till Goldorak (Grendizer) From foo at siconic.com Fri May 11 08:45:06 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:16 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: <1333.531T150T473491optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 11 May 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > >> Really, asd long as the reproduction is identical in every sense, why > >> would it matter when it was built? I wouldn't really mind replacing my > >> 1992 Amiga 4000 with a freshly built replica. As long as it looked and > >> behaved like my current A4000, but didn't consist of eight-year-old > >> hardware, the new model would be superior. Likewise, why would it > >> matter whether your issue of X-men was printed in 1996 instead of > >> 1963? Is it the actual reading material or 30-year old paper you're > >> looking for? OTOH, packaging is important to me, and so is the > >> condition of the equipment I get. I find aesthetic pleasure in the > >> design of the computer and its packaging. I do, however, not find > >> aesthetic pleasure in the sight of old plastic. New plastic works just > >> as well, and so do new circuits. > > >How would you feel about a reproduction of a famous painting, like say the > >"Mona Lisa"? > > Nothing wrong with that. Why should Mona Lisa only be the right of rich > people? Would, as you said above originally, a replica of the "Mona Lisa" be superior to the original, of which there is only one, painted by Leonardo da Vinci, one of the most celebrated scientists in all of history? The difference, the BIG difference, is that the original was touched by the man himself. Which is what I think we've been missing here. In terms of the computer kit that started this thread, the originals were touched by the hands of someone long ago, in a different place and time. When those originals come into our possession, we have an immediate and tangible connection to that past, and we now feel we have a part of it. That is one reason why we collect, whether you plan to store it or use it. Deep down we feel a connection to the past. A replica cannot offer that connection. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From edick at idcomm.com Fri May 11 10:05:01 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:16 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog References: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0007A26F@BUSH02> Message-ID: <001801c0da2b$c12d6340$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I'm acquainted with the effect, but not in the context of this class of device. It must not like to show itself in the range of brightness in which the monitors I've tried this with in the last day or so opeprate. This suggests we're making a mountain out of a molehill, at least in the context of the problem at hand. How does that relate to the "digital" vs. analog debate? I can see how sweep rates figure in, but the input signal levels? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Davison, Lee" To: Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 2:16 AM Subject: RE: Converting TTL monitor to Analog > > >> which defines where you can display pixels. If you attempt to > display more > >> pixels on a line than there are holes in the mask, then you will > get > >> banding artifacts. > > > > I've seen no evidence of this. If this were the case, then the > fact that many > > display systems use inexpensive 1000 ppm oscillators would cause > enough > > variation that it would be obvious on those monitors having this > feature. > > I have, many times. It's not so visible on modern monitors but is clearly > visible > on domestic receivers when a frequency graticule is displayed. > > It's sometimes refered to as Moire effect. > > Lee. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The > information contained in this email may contain information which is > confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender > and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. > > If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please > delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International > IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. > > ________________________________________________________________________ > This message has been checked for all known viruses, by Star Internet, > delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. > For further information visit: > http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp > > From edick at idcomm.com Fri May 11 10:12:01 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:16 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog References: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0007A270@BUSH02> Message-ID: <001e01c0da2c$badf81c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> If it's serialized then it's really moving along! if you've got 1K pixels at a nominally 65 MHz pixel rate with 24 bits per pixel ... I assume the designers at least use three channels, one for each color, so as to reduce that to 8 bits per pixel, right? For most applications, the distance from the "box" to the display isn't far at all, but I can see the benefit where a large display might be desirable, as in a classroom or demonstration environment. Nevertheless, aside from relatively small signal losses, there isn't a big advantage, aside from the fact that every display manufacturer can process the signal however he prefers. That makes it possible to use essentially the same signal arrangement, which seems a mite risky to me. It makes me wonder whether the DE15's I've seen on the flat-panel displays are for a standard VGA signal arrangement or something else. What sort of connector is used for the serialized digital arrangement? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Davison, Lee" To: Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 2:27 AM Subject: RE: Converting TTL monitor to Analog > > > What sort of digital interface would such devices use? They'd have > to have lots > of wires, e.g. 26 or so pairs, if the thing is using 24-bit color. > Perish the > thought someone would use more color depth than that! It's hard to > imagine > they'd do that. The number of wires that have to transport > high-frequency > signal is the reason the analog is still so difficult to surpass. > > Not if a serial video bitstream were used. It's actually easier to use this > than > an analogue feed over any significant distance. > > Lee. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The > information contained in this email may contain information which is > confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender > and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. > > If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please > delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International > IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. > > ________________________________________________________________________ > This message has been checked for all known viruses, by Star Internet, > delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. > For further information visit: > http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp > > From rmeenaks at olf.com Fri May 11 10:16:41 2001 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:16 2005 Subject: 'Machine that Changed the World' References: <3AFAF931.7070306@olf.com> <01051021183900.00789@fatty> Message-ID: <3AFC0259.5000507@olf.com> Hi Brian, Its working great, so I boxed it up and getting ready to move it out. Thanks, Ram Brian Roth wrote: > Ram, > > Thanks. Looking forward to it. How did the SUN work out for you? > > Brian. > > From edick at idcomm.com Fri May 11 10:25:07 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:16 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog References: <1227.531T1700T265641optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <002601c0da2e$8fb61700$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, I'm not sure you're entirely wrong here, but the ghosting is probably more a result of poor signal termination than anything else, and the magnitude of the reflection from a full-swing digital signal is much more likely to show up than what you'd get form a 1-volt p-p analog signal. Moreover, since you've got much smaller transitions on the analog video signal, and since you've got an automatic gain control in the monitor to offset the losses, the line losses aren't as much a factor as they'd be without it. Digital signaling was OK back in the text-only and monochrome era, but once things went to full-spectrum color, it was necessary to present them in analog. The EGA had 16 (?) colors (maybe that was 16 shades of each of three colors), which already required some digital=>analog processing at some stage in the process, and, from what I've observed, it had to be on the adapter board, since the signal from there to the monitor was already a small-swing analog signal. Gosting is another problem that's never plagued me in this arena. Normally it can be dealt with by proper termination of the video signal. Some monitors rely on a 150-ohm resistor in the line and only provide that same amount themselves, while other have a 75-ohm to ground/return. To accompany this some adapters have a divider rather than simply a series resistor to the output. It depends on what's in the combination, how well it will work, but I've not been sufficiently bothered by any mismatch to warrant hacking either circuit. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iggy Drougge" To: "Richard Erlacher" Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 5:26 PM Subject: Re: Converting TTL monitor to Analog > Richard Erlacher skrev: > > >What sort of digital interface would such devices use? They'd have to have > >lots of wires, e.g. 26 or so pairs, if the thing is using 24-bit color. > >Perish the thought someone would use more color depth than that! It's hard > >to imagine they'd do that. The number of wires that have to transport > >high-frequency signal is the reason the analog is still so difficult to > >surpass. > > >After all, a 26-pair shielded cable with an appropriate connector, made in > >the US, would immediately become the most costly component in a computer > >system. I doubt a computer maker would go for that, as the 20" monitor > >(@~$300-$400) is presently the most costly component. That would essentially > >make the 20" display and cable more than 2/3 the cost of the computer. > > But isn't the digital signal less dependent on absolute signal integrity? > After all, if there can only be two levels, making out the difference can't be > all that difficult. This also seems to hold true WRT my successful use of > long, thin, unshielded cables for EGA and CGA monitors without any ghosting. > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > I dunno, I dream in Perl sometimes... > --Larry Wall in <8538@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV> > > From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Fri May 11 10:51:16 2001 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:16 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0007A271@BUSH02> If it's serialized then it's really moving along! if you've got 1K pixels at a nominally 65 MHz pixel rate with 24 bits per pixel ... I assume the designers at least use three channels, one for each color, so as to reduce that to 8 bits per pixel, right? Use lossless compression, then even hires displays rarely get over 20Mb/s For most applications, the distance from the "box" to the display isn't far at all, but I can see the benefit where a large display might be desirable, as in a classroom or demonstration environment. Or multi drop. Nevertheless, aside from relatively small signal losses, there isn't a big advantage, aside from the fact that every display manufacturer can process the signal however he prefers. Cheaper connectors, cheaper cable, no mismatch artifacts... What sort of connector is used for the serialized digital arrangement? BNC mostly. Lee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The information contained in this email may contain information which is confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. ________________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses, by Star Internet, delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit: http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp From celt at chisp.net Fri May 11 11:05:19 2001 From: celt at chisp.net (Michael Maginnis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:16 2005 Subject: PDP-8e question Message-ID: <3AFC0DBF.3000507@chisp.net> A local electronics surplus store that I have frequented for years is going out of business next week (sigh). During this week's visit, the proprietor offered me a pallet of 10 'complete, working and loaded' PDP 8e's. When I asked what he wanted for them, his response was the typical 'make me an offer'. I got the feeling that if I passed, they'd end up on ePay. My collection is mostly 80s-era 8-bit micros (Apple, Commodore, etc), and Heathkit test kits; the only piece of DEC-ware I currently have is VAXstation 3100, so I have no idea what the PDPs are worth. If I take these things off his hands, what would be a fair offer? Cosmetically, they seem to be in great shape, and he powered a couple of them up for me (blinkenlights and such). I opened several of them up, and they were all filled with various cards. Space considerations probably will only allow me to keep two or three; I'll offer the rest here - whatever doesn't get claimed will be put on ePay. - Mike From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Fri May 11 11:24:30 2001 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:16 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog ( Screen Flicker)(Human visu al response OT) Message-ID: Actually the human visual response in variable depending on what part of the field of vision is used. I can and many people can see flicker using your peripheral vision. Pointing your head away from the screen about 60 degrees and looking at the screen from the corner of you eye you can commonly see flicker. Rods and cones in you eye respond differently to color, flicker, and light levels. There are whole books on human visual response and lots of study of the field when looking at Radiological images. The new "hot topic" is Radiology is "soft-copy" reading of medical images, skip the film use a computer monitor. The problem is that clinical quality monitors cost $10,000-$20,000. Everybody want consumer grade monitors with the associated low cost. Brightness variability across the screen is routinely 25%. Examining images for lung cancer nodules or mammography lesions are examples. There is a huge equation that lists visual response which is tied to brightness, apparent contrast, wavelength, and size. Lots of human response is below the "threshold of awareness". If you can obviously see the lung nodule then your chances of treatment and 5 year longevity are reduced. Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri May 11 10:24:13 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:16 2005 Subject: Micro Integration 5250 Gateway Message-ID: It may be too late for me to get more, but I found a case of Micro Integration 5250 Gateway products, looks like an ISA card and software for a PC to talk to a twinax AS400 system. I have a couple, may be able to dig out more, any interest? ************ Note the correction the company is Micro Integration, and I will dig and see if I can get a few more since there seems to be some interest. The boxes contain an ISA card, software, and a short adapter to TwinAx from something like a RJ45 I think. Some mental blur exists. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri May 11 11:21:39 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:16 2005 Subject: Vintageness In-Reply-To: <3AFBF7F7.BF24C0E6@greenbelt.com> References: <1333.531T150T473491optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: I take generic cold tablets, loath generic root beer, and have a sealed original Apple item, that in used but good condition I have sold to members of this list for $12, on auction with a current bid of about $600 with 3 days left. If its something you want to use, get one that works well, or even works the best, generic is fine. In matters of taste, go for the real thing, Barq's or A&W. Collectibility has its own rules, but sealed original mint etc. mean money. The only thing better is history, which is sort of the partner to uniqueness. The problem I think we are having is the intersection of collectible items that some of us wish to use, and where the cost of the replica is close to the cost of an original. A classic example of this that we can look back on instead of speculation on the future are the Gordon Gow editions of the classic Macintosh MC275 tube amplifier. At a time when the original MC275 amps were selling in very good condition for about $1500, MacIntosh released the Gordon Gow remake at $5000, with the street price dropping to about $3200 after a year or so. The re-release killed the collectible value of the originals, as the average person was a USER not a COLLECTOR, and greatly prefered the new more reliable etc. unit. From celt at chisp.net Fri May 11 12:38:02 2001 From: celt at chisp.net (Michael Maginnis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:16 2005 Subject: PDP-8e question References: <3AFC0DBF.3000507@chisp.net> Message-ID: <3AFC237A.8030005@chisp.net> Assuming the proprietor accepts my $1500 offer, all of the PDPs have been spoken for. Thanks Mike Michael Maginnis wrote: > A local electronics surplus store that I have frequented for years is > going out of business next week (sigh). During this week's visit, the > proprietor offered me a pallet of 10 'complete, working and loaded' PDP > 8e's. When I asked what he wanted for them, his response was the > typical 'make me an offer'. I got the feeling that if I passed, they'd > end up on ePay. > > My collection is mostly 80s-era 8-bit micros (Apple, Commodore, etc), > and Heathkit test kits; the only piece of DEC-ware I currently have is > VAXstation 3100, so I have no idea what the PDPs are worth. If I take > these things off his hands, what would be a fair offer? > > Cosmetically, they seem to be in great shape, and he powered a couple of > them up for me (blinkenlights and such). I opened several of them up, > and they were all filled with various cards. Space considerations > probably will only allow me to keep two or three; I'll offer the rest > here - whatever doesn't get claimed will be put on ePay. > > - Mike > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 11 12:44:57 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:16 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: <002d01c0d999$c695bea0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at May 10, 1 03:40:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 765 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010511/e1b60643/attachment.ksh From vance at ikickass.org Fri May 11 13:08:52 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Vance Dereksen) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:16 2005 Subject: Vintageness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 11 May 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > I take generic cold tablets, loath generic root beer, and have a sealed > original Apple item, that in used but good condition I have sold to members > of this list for $12, on auction with a current bid of about $600 with 3 > days left. > > If its something you want to use, get one that works well, or even works > the best, generic is fine. > > In matters of taste, go for the real thing, Barq's or A&W. Hallelujah, brother! Go tell it on the mountain! > Collectibility has its own rules, but sealed original mint etc. mean money. > The only thing better is history, which is sort of the partner to > uniqueness. Condition all depends on the rarity of the item. The condition of an ancient Phoenician wooden trade coin doesn't really matter. It's that rare. > The problem I think we are having is the intersection of collectible items > that some of us wish to use, and where the cost of the replica is close to > the cost of an original. A classic example of this that we can look back on > instead of speculation on the future are the Gordon Gow editions of the > classic Macintosh MC275 tube amplifier. At a time when the original MC275 > amps were selling in very good condition for about $1500, MacIntosh > released the Gordon Gow remake at $5000, with the street price dropping to > about $3200 after a year or so. The re-release killed the collectible value > of the originals, as the average person was a USER not a COLLECTOR, and > greatly prefered the new more reliable etc. unit. The originals are still worth quite a bit in the collectors market. Their value just dropped on the open market. And what about new collectible stuff like the MC2000? And, BTW, its McIntosh, not MacIntosh. 8-) I'm nitpicking though. Peace... Sridhar From tony.eros at machm.org Fri May 11 13:25:14 2001 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:16 2005 Subject: FlipChips and data sheets Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010511141256.00ab3b80@mail.njd.concentric.com> I just got back from a trip and found a box of DEC FlipChips in my front hall! There's a fair number of them that appear to be new -- they're in little plastic bags, still stapled shut. Here's what I've counted so far: 1 A704 -10V power supply (double size) 3 B113 unused 3 B200 unused, 1 used 1 B401 1 B405 unused 4 A601 unused 1 A604 unused 1 R002 1 R107 unused, 1 used 4 R111 3 R113 2 R123 unused, 2 used 9 R141 5 R202 5 R203 6 R204 unused, 1 used 1 R302 1 R401 1 R405 1 R601 2 R603 unused 3 R650 1 S111 1 W650 There are also a bunch of "Flip Chip Modules Test Specs" data sheets with specs and schematics on them. I'll scan them and post a URL to the list. -- Tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 11 12:49:54 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:16 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Hellige" at May 10, 1 07:00:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 667 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010511/201dac1c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 11 12:55:48 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:16 2005 Subject: Docs for DRV-11? In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010510163913.02a0ccb0@208.226.86.129> from "Chuck McManis" at May 10, 1 04:40:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 539 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010511/f011b2c7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 11 13:01:59 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:16 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: <3539.531T1400T625373optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at May 11, 1 01:02:28 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2126 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010511/048dcbc7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 11 13:13:50 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:16 2005 Subject: In search of 20ma to eia converter In-Reply-To: <200105110319.XAA03434@world.std.com> from "Megan" at May 10, 1 11:19:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1727 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010511/5085a4c9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 11 13:16:13 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:16 2005 Subject: Docs for DRV-11? In-Reply-To: <001801c0d9cf$b221ef80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at May 10, 1 10:06:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 637 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010511/e98c09d8/attachment.ksh From jfoust at threedee.com Fri May 11 13:59:28 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:16 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: References: <3539.531T1400T625373optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010511135733.01d02180@pc> At 07:01 PM 5/11/01 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >For >example, the original on 'The Boy Mechanic' is out of print (AFAIK). But >I can easily buy a Lindsay reprint that contains exactly the same >information. >I would assume the original (which is out of print) will now be fairly >rare (I have never seen it in a second-hand bookshop, for example). The >reprint is common. One of my favorites from my teen years. They're not uncommon over here in the States. They were reprinted for years beyond the original, and there are several editions. I've seen first editions as well as old reprints at used book stores. I'll hand down a set to my boys. - John From donm at cts.com Fri May 11 15:17:39 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:16 2005 Subject: Vintageness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 11 May 2001, Vance Dereksen wrote: > On Fri, 11 May 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > > > I take generic cold tablets, loath generic root beer, and have a sealed > > original Apple item, that in used but good condition I have sold to members > > of this list for $12, on auction with a current bid of about $600 with 3 > > days left. > > > > If its something you want to use, get one that works well, or even works > > the best, generic is fine. > > > > In matters of taste, go for the real thing, Barq's or A&W. > > Hallelujah, brother! Go tell it on the mountain! > > > Collectibility has its own rules, but sealed original mint etc. mean money. > > The only thing better is history, which is sort of the partner to > > uniqueness. > > Condition all depends on the rarity of the item. The condition of an > ancient Phoenician wooden trade coin doesn't really matter. It's that > rare. > > > The problem I think we are having is the intersection of collectible items > > that some of us wish to use, and where the cost of the replica is close to > > the cost of an original. A classic example of this that we can look back on > > instead of speculation on the future are the Gordon Gow editions of the > > classic Macintosh MC275 tube amplifier. At a time when the original MC275 > > amps were selling in very good condition for about $1500, MacIntosh > > released the Gordon Gow remake at $5000, with the street price dropping to > > about $3200 after a year or so. The re-release killed the collectible value > > of the originals, as the average person was a USER not a COLLECTOR, and > > greatly prefered the new more reliable etc. unit. > > The originals are still worth quite a bit in the collectors market. Their > value just dropped on the open market. And what about new collectible > stuff like the MC2000? And, BTW, its McIntosh, not MacIntosh. 8-) I'm > nitpicking though. And nitpicking erroneously. Apple, in their infinite wisdom, seems to think that it should be spelled "Macintosh". - don > Peace... Sridhar > > From optimus at canit.se Fri May 11 05:29:42 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:16 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <859.531T2100T6895593optimus@canit.se> Jeff Hellige skrev: > I don't know about the rest, but Apple's DVI connector has 24 >pins. I'm not sure how many are on their latest connector, the ADC. >It goes back to something similar to what the NeXT did: it carries >power, video, and USB through the single ADC connector to/from the >LCD. Belkin makes an adapter that converts between the two though, >at least for connecting DVI displays to ADC graphics cards. Is it just me who's feeling very nervous about AC power to drive an entire monitor going through the same wire as the video signal? I really wouldn't dare hack my own cables for that kind of interface. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Georgie beundrade stor?gt sin pappa som med v?ldsamma slag gick l?s p? det stora tr?det. Han badade i svett, och den muskul?sa kroppen bl?nkte i solskenet. Hon ?lskade honom. Lady Georgie, TMS 1983 From msell at ontimesupport.com Fri May 11 15:50:26 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:16 2005 Subject: Looking for PDP 11 or Vax 11/7xx Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010511154818.00a9dec0@127.0.0.1> If anyone here has a PDP 11 (such as a 44/84/34) or Vax 11/750 or 11/780 for sale, or know someone who does, could you let me know? I checked on a Vax 11/780 for disposal in Ohio but it went to the landfill already. * Sigh * I really appreciate it. Thanks! - Matthew Sell "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri May 11 16:02:39 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:16 2005 Subject: Looking for PDP 11 or Vax 11/7xx References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010511154818.00a9dec0@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <3AFC536F.FBE87D44@mcmanis.com> Where are you located? You might try Mitch Miller over at Keyways in OH. --Chuck Matthew Sell wrote: > If anyone here has a PDP 11 (such as a 44/84/34) or Vax 11/750 or 11/780 > for sale, or know someone who does, could you let me know? > > I checked on a Vax 11/780 for disposal in Ohio but it went to the landfill > already. * Sigh * > > I really appreciate it. Thanks! > > - Matthew Sell > > "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad > "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler > > Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From msell at ontimesupport.com Fri May 11 16:31:49 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:16 2005 Subject: Looking for PDP 11 or Vax 11/7xx In-Reply-To: <3AFC536F.FBE87D44@mcmanis.com> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010511154818.00a9dec0@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010511162606.02afa280@127.0.0.1> Chuck, I'm in Houston, but I'm also into collecting coin-operated video games so I'm no stranger to shipping large heavy items. Thanks for the lead! - Matt At 02:02 PM 5/11/01 -0700, you wrote: >Where are you located? You might try Mitch Miller over at Keyways in OH. > >--Chuck > >Matthew Sell wrote: > > > If anyone here has a PDP 11 (such as a 44/84/34) or Vax 11/750 or 11/780 > > for sale, or know someone who does, could you let me know? > > > > I checked on a Vax 11/780 for disposal in Ohio but it went to the landfill > > already. * Sigh * > > > > I really appreciate it. Thanks! > > > > - Matthew Sell > > > > "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad > > "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler > > > > Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From vance at ikickass.org Fri May 11 16:32:14 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Vance Dereksen) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:16 2005 Subject: Vintageness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, but we're not talking about Apples. We're talking about McIntoshes. Peace... Sridhar On Fri, 11 May 2001, Don Maslin wrote: > > > On Fri, 11 May 2001, Vance Dereksen wrote: > > > On Fri, 11 May 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > > > > > I take generic cold tablets, loath generic root beer, and have a sealed > > > original Apple item, that in used but good condition I have sold to members > > > of this list for $12, on auction with a current bid of about $600 with 3 > > > days left. > > > > > > If its something you want to use, get one that works well, or even works > > > the best, generic is fine. > > > > > > In matters of taste, go for the real thing, Barq's or A&W. > > > > Hallelujah, brother! Go tell it on the mountain! > > > > > Collectibility has its own rules, but sealed original mint etc. mean money. > > > The only thing better is history, which is sort of the partner to > > > uniqueness. > > > > Condition all depends on the rarity of the item. The condition of an > > ancient Phoenician wooden trade coin doesn't really matter. It's that > > rare. > > > > > The problem I think we are having is the intersection of collectible items > > > that some of us wish to use, and where the cost of the replica is close to > > > the cost of an original. A classic example of this that we can look back on > > > instead of speculation on the future are the Gordon Gow editions of the > > > classic Macintosh MC275 tube amplifier. At a time when the original MC275 > > > amps were selling in very good condition for about $1500, MacIntosh > > > released the Gordon Gow remake at $5000, with the street price dropping to > > > about $3200 after a year or so. The re-release killed the collectible value > > > of the originals, as the average person was a USER not a COLLECTOR, and > > > greatly prefered the new more reliable etc. unit. > > > > The originals are still worth quite a bit in the collectors market. Their > > value just dropped on the open market. And what about new collectible > > stuff like the MC2000? And, BTW, its McIntosh, not MacIntosh. 8-) I'm > > nitpicking though. > > And nitpicking erroneously. Apple, in their infinite wisdom, seems to > think that it should be spelled "Macintosh". > > - don > > > Peace... Sridhar > > > > > From allain at panix.com Fri May 11 17:30:32 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:16 2005 Subject: McI*netting References: Message-ID: <001b01c0da69$fe491ec0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Since McI's were being discussed. I picked up what I thought was a 10bT adaptor for Mac this weekend. It fits the quadra and had an RJ45, but... It's marked 'Dayna EasyNet'. Could this be right? Thought it would/should be an Apple product, being such a basic need. John A. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri May 11 17:52:04 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:16 2005 Subject: In search of 20ma to eia converter Message-ID: <00c001c0da6d$016d3ac0$95749a8d@ajp166> Which PTR do you have thats 20ma? Allison -----Original Message----- From: Megan To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, May 10, 2001 11:49 PM Subject: In search of 20ma to eia converter > >I have an old serial paper tape reader which runs with >20ma and would like to use it to archive all my pdp-11 >(and some pdp-8) paper tapes. But I need a converter... > >Can anyone help? Any pointers to a simple schematic? > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | >| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | >| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | >| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | >| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | >| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri May 11 18:21:04 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:16 2005 Subject: McI*netting In-Reply-To: "John Allain" "McI*netting" (May 11, 18:30) References: <001b01c0da69$fe491ec0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <10105120021.ZM12237@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 11, 18:30, John Allain wrote: > Since McI's were being discussed. > I picked up what I thought was a 10bT adaptor > for Mac this weekend. It fits the quadra and had > an RJ45, but... It's marked 'Dayna EasyNet'. > Could this be right? Thought it would/should be > an Apple product, being such a basic need. Yes, it's a 10baseT transceiver. Lots of companies made transceivers to fit Macs, because the Apple ones were expensive. I've got ones made by Asante and Farallon. Allied Telesyn made the best (IMHO) ones, and had a whole range including fibre transceivers. There are some made by Sun that look the same -- but they only work on Sun workstations (different pinout). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From bsa3 at cornell.edu Fri May 11 18:23:47 2001 From: bsa3 at cornell.edu (Brad Ackerman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:16 2005 Subject: VAXstation 3500 available (Boston) Message-ID: <20010511232347.20764@smtp.ne.mediaone.net> Available immediately, a VAXstation 3500 with: TQK70 tape controller KDA50 SDI adapter VCD02 frame buffer (4-plane) DSV11 2-line sync SLU DESQA Ethernet adapter, thick/thin MS650 8MB memory board (x2) KA650 CPU board (MicroVAX III) plus a VR290-DA colour monitor (some ghosting), LK-401 keyboard, VSXXX-AA mouse, the keyboard/mouse breakout box, and the power cable. Storage devices installed are a TK70 (control panel indicates a fault of some sort; all three LEDs on the drive blink) and an SID hard drive (c. 270 MB[1]). Also appears to need a new clock battery. Free to a good home; currently located in Somerville, Massachusetts, USA near I-93 exit 30. [1] If I'm reading the output of SHOW DEVICE DUA0: /FULL correctly. -- Brad Ackerman N1MNB "Now some of you may bring up the Tekken OVA. bsa3@cornell.edu In response, I'd tend to simply bring up my lunch." PGP: 0x62D6B223 -- His Lordship Chaos http://skaro.pair.com/ from http://www.animeondvd.com/ From optimus at canit.se Fri May 11 18:15:07 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:16 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3091.532T350T153555optimus@canit.se> Sellam Ismail skrev: >On 11 May 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> >> Really, asd long as the reproduction is identical in every sense, why >> >> would it matter when it was built? I wouldn't really mind replacing my >> >> 1992 Amiga 4000 with a freshly built replica. As long as it looked and >> >> behaved like my current A4000, but didn't consist of eight-year-old >> >> hardware, the new model would be superior. Likewise, why would it >> >> matter whether your issue of X-men was printed in 1996 instead of >> >> 1963? Is it the actual reading material or 30-year old paper you're >> >> looking for? OTOH, packaging is important to me, and so is the >> >> condition of the equipment I get. I find aesthetic pleasure in the >> >> design of the computer and its packaging. I do, however, not find >> >> aesthetic pleasure in the sight of old plastic. New plastic works just >> >> as well, and so do new circuits. >> >> >How would you feel about a reproduction of a famous painting, like say the >> >"Mona Lisa"? >> >> Nothing wrong with that. Why should Mona Lisa only be the right of rich >> people? >Would, as you said above originally, a replica of the "Mona Lisa" be >superior to the original, of which there is only one, painted by Leonardo >da Vinci, one of the most celebrated scientists in all of history? The >difference, the BIG difference, is that the original was touched by the >man himself. Da Vinci is famous because he (along with a lot of other works) painted Mona Lisa, not the opposite. If the greatness of Mona Lisa lies in being touched by him, then wouldn't his utensils be works of art as well? Da Vinci's greatness as an artist stemmed IOW from his ability to produce great works of art. A work of art is a work of art even if mass-produced, the last century has taught us as much. >Which is what I think we've been missing here. In terms of the computer >kit that started this thread, the originals were touched by the hands of >someone long ago, in a different place and time. When those originals >come into our possession, we have an immediate and tangible connection to >that past, and we now feel we have a part of it. But then that is metaphysics, and should we really invest that much money into something which essentially would be a golden calf? >That is one reason why we collect, whether you plan to store it or use it. >Deep down we feel a connection to the past. >A replica cannot offer that connection. But of course it can! It's built from the same plans and offers the same functionality. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Scandinavian countries, especially Sweden, [have] alarmed the more doctrinaire exponents of a revolutionary (as opposed to evolutionary) modern architecture by specializing in a cosy domesticity which appears to turn its back on many of modern architecture's spectacular achievements; not by reviving period styles, but by preferring traditional building techniques and materials and putting the highest value on charm of character and a close accord between building and landscape. J.M. Richards, Modern Architecture From optimus at canit.se Fri May 11 18:21:54 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2741.532T2700T216553optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >> Tony Duell skrev: >> >> >> I don't really understand why people care about originality. Isn't that >> >> mainly a metaphysical matter? Or am I being too post-modern? >> >> >It depends on what you mean by 'originality'. >> >> I'm sorry, I can't find the right word... >No, it's not that, it's just that 'original' means different things to >different people. People collect computers for various reasons. Exactly, original is quite ambiguous. >> >Why? Old chips (meaning those made in the last 30 years or so) seem to be >> >pretty reliable most of the time... >> >> I agree that there has occured some kind natural selection WRT those chips, >> but... Eventually things become worn out, even solder points, traces and >> joints in electronics. >Considering I use equipment that's over 50 years old here, and that many >of the soldered connections have never been touched since it left the >factory, I don't think this is a major problem. Nor have I ever had any >problems with (correctly stored) wire-wrap going unreliable in a >reasonable time period (10's of years) either. That's odd, I've read quite often that Amigas are getting more unreliable by the day due to the contruction being worn out. That certainly seems to hold true WRT to the Amigas we use at the usergroup. They just start behaving irrationally as they age. >> >True, which is why I spend far too much money on Lindsay Publications >> >reprints of old books on radio, electical stuff, engineering, etc. The >> >_information_ is what matters to me. >> >> >But, I would not be happy paying a high price for a 'rare book' and then >> >finding out it was a Lindsay reprint that is still 'in print'. Because I >> >have then not got what I paid for. >> >> OTOH, why would it be rare in the first place if it's still "in print"? >Lindsay Publications reprints old books that are no longer in print. For >example, the original on 'The Boy Mechanic' is out of print (AFAIK). But >I can easily buy a Lindsay reprint that contains exactly the same >information. Exactly, and then it no longer is out of print. >I would assume the original (which is out of print) will now be fairly >rare (I have never seen it in a second-hand bookshop, for example). The >reprint is common. >I would therefore be annoyed if I'd paid for what I thought was an >original, and ended up with the reprint. It is not the same thing, for >all both are equally useful to me in the sense of providing information. But isn't that the purpose of the book? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. And don't tell me there isn't one bit of difference between null and space, because that's exactly how much difference there is. :-) --Larry Wall in <10209@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV> From jpero at sympatico.ca Fri May 11 14:55:05 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: <2741.532T2700T216553optimus@canit.se> References: Message-ID: <20010511235243.VIZJ27183.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Snip > >reasonable time period (10's of years) either. > > That's odd, I've read quite often that Amigas are getting more unreliable by > the day due to the contruction being worn out. That certainly seems to hold > true WRT to the Amigas we use at the usergroup. They just start behaving > irrationally as they age. That and most of C= computers used aucient design on chipsets by MOS company did ran very hot and they are very easy to damage and doesn't age too well with time. At that period, C= should had went on to CMOS technologies and made their circuit boards bit more hardy to rough world but they didn't innovate often enough besides great Amigas and C64's. Everybody else went on to CMOS stuff already long before 90's. The worry is that chipset patents on that Amiga it's not yet released or transferred to suitable user besides Gateway's. Cheers, Wizard From Demon02554 at aol.com Fri May 11 19:05:27 2001 From: Demon02554 at aol.com (Demon02554@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: VAXstation 3500 available (Boston) Message-ID: hmm... i have a friend who may be able to pick it up for me and ship it to Virginia if you are unable to do so yourself.... well that depends how big it is....if nothing else my grandmother is goin to Cape Cod in a little bit also so i could get her to pick it up and then lug it back you have a picture of it? also can i get your address? thanks, Robert Cobbins From jpero at sympatico.ca Fri May 11 15:11:05 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: Micropolis corporation aftermath. In-Reply-To: <2741.532T2700T216553optimus@canit.se> References: Message-ID: <20010512000843.VXWT28559.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Hi, I have tried to search but this turns up very little on whatabouts of this Micropolis death and there must be somebody who picked up all that assets including patents. A company can't be disappeared into thin air without a bang or grabbed up after the crash of doors. This info would be nice to know where that went to. At one point Micropolis *was* good maker but fell apart from QC downfall. Any stories on Micropolis stuff is great too. The website name is still held and still paid for by somebody. www.micropolis.com but nothing there so you get redirected to another hosting webpage business. Otherwise that name would be for sale. Cheers, Wizard From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri May 11 19:27:05 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: Docs for DRV-11? In-Reply-To: References: <001801c0d9cf$b221ef80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010511165854.024bceb0@208.226.86.10> It turns out this is the DRV11-WA (Module M7651) which is a dual wide, Q-bus, DMA capable, 16 bit I/O port. (Very cool as far as I am concerned). I actually found another one of these in my spares bin so I've actually got two. Megan's field guide page makes it out to be 18/22 bit compatible so that it can probably DMA into and out of pretty much any part of Q-bus memory space. The MicroVAX will let me map pages of its memory into the Q-bus space so I can presumably DMA things out of VAX memory and into some peripheral. This differs from the M7941 which is also a 16 bit interface but does not do DMA. I've got the 1980 LSI-11 peripherals handbook which talks about the DRV11-B which is quad wide (M7950) which appears to be the predecessor to this board, it can only do 18 bit DMA. I'll bet a zillion dollars that the pin out on the two connectors is identical :-) So if I can figure out when the 7651 was introduced I might be able to find a handbook that covers it. I've got a spare 1980 handbook I'd be willing to trade for a 1985 or thereabouts. And to whomever was wondering about MSCP. No, I don't expect to do MSCP! I built a "bit banger" SCSI interface for the Z80 once out of a PIO chip and a couple of flip flops. If you make simple assumptions like SCSI-1, Only one target on the bus besides you, asynch I/O only, etc. It isn't hard to do. --Chuck At 07:16 PM 5/11/01 +0100, you wrote: > > > > How will the DRV-11 help you hook into MSCP? It's a good and VERY flexible > >Who said anything about MSCP. I assumed he was going to make a >hardware-compatible SCSI interface, and then write a special driver for >whatever OS he's running to set the lines to the appropriate states in >the right sequence. No reason why that wouldn't work -- plenty of the >older DEC disk drives weren't MSCP devices. > > > card, but not intended for use as a file device. It does, of course, > support > > DMA. > >Some DR(V)-11 versions support DMA (the -W does, and certainly the DR11-B >does -- is there a Qbus version of that?). Others don't. > >-tony From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri May 11 19:33:35 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: VAXstation 3500 available (Boston) In-Reply-To: <20010511232347.20764@smtp.ne.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010511173031.02aa61b0@208.226.86.10> At 07:23 PM 5/11/01 -0400, you wrote: >Available immediately, a VAXstation 3500 with: Whoa, cool! > VCD02 frame buffer (4-plane) This is the really cool part. Does it have an S-box handle on the VCB-02 card set or is the VCB card have it built on directly? I've got a VS3500 that had the frame buffer removed (got the cable though!) and have been looking off and on for one ever since. Everything else in the box is pretty vanilla. Presumably is has RA7x's hiding inside the cabinet rather than an RA8x or RA9x sitting next to it? --Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri May 11 19:55:06 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: board id/finds Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010511173410.02aa21c0@208.226.86.10> Sigh, I've been going through my stuff, paring it down 'cuz I have to move it :-), and this has given me incentive to actually go through some of the systems I've bought but had 'staged' for later analysis. One is a MicroVAX 3600 in the H9644 cabinet. This is a pretty big VAX for the Q-bus series. I've seen custom configs done bigger with the BA23's in a tall corporate rack but as a unit, this was one of the larger Q-bus VAXen around. Now normally these things had the BA213 mounted in the lower part of the rack and a big RA81 or RA82 mounted in the top. One of the things that excited me about this machine was that the RA82 has been removed and replaced with a case filled with 4 SCSI drives and an 8MM DAT drive. SCSI drives normally imply a SCSI interface, but alas, I opened it up and there is one open slot in the backplane and no bus grant jumper. I can guess what used to be there. Oh well. However, one of the other things was an Emulex board that I'm trying to identify. It has these numbers: K12S12/500W SN: AAG6933 CM Assy #: QS0910201-02 Then four high density 36 pin honda connectors on an Sbox handle. There is also a small three position switch labeled 'norm', 'reset', and 'setup.' I'm guessing it is some sort of async port. Anyone know for sure? Does anyone know the actual Emulex model number and if cables are available? If its a 32 port serial card it would be pretty cool. --Chuck From optimus at canit.se Fri May 11 20:49:22 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1323.532T1100T1694401optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >> I don't know about the rest, but Apple's DVI connector has 24 >> pins. I'm not sure how many are on their latest connector, the ADC. >> It goes back to something similar to what the NeXT did: it carries >> power, video, and USB through the single ADC connector to/from the >And before the Next, there was the PERQ 3a, which put video, syncs, >keyboard, mouse, and (serial) tablet connections all on one DB25. The >PERQ2 almost did that -- it has a DA15 for keyboard, mouse, (some) power >and syncs and a separate BNC for the (mono) video singal -- apparently >the designers wanted to use a proper RF connector for the video data >(very sensible!). And then there were the one which went the other way around and put the entire system PSU in the monitor, such as the Amstrad CPCs, the ABC800 and I think the Compis as well. The VAXstation IIGPX had separate PSUs for the monitor and system unit, but the keyboard and mouse connectors were on a box at the monitor cable. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. [E]xcept in the works of Gunnar Asplund, architect of the Stockholm Exhibition of 1930 and the Stockholm crematorium, Sweden has never contributed much to the revolutionary developments through which modern architecture made its initial impact on the world. J.M. Richards, Modern Architecture From mbg at world.std.com Fri May 11 20:13:55 2001 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: In search of 20ma to eia converter Message-ID: <200105120113.VAA12649@world.std.com> >Which PTR do you have thats 20ma? I don't have it in front of me right now, but I think it is the PRS01, a small reader (6x12x8) which is a table-top unit. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From bsa3 at cornell.edu Fri May 11 20:17:54 2001 From: bsa3 at cornell.edu (Brad Ackerman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: VAXstation claimed Message-ID: <20010512011754.31510@smtp.ne.mediaone.net> The VAXstation 3500 has been claimed. -- Brad Ackerman N1MNB "[John Howard] hasn't emerged from the 1950s, bsa3@cornell.edu and he seems rather resentful of anyone who has." http://skaro.pair.com/ -- Bill Leek, _Australia: Beyond the Fatal Shore_ From menadeau at mediaone.net Fri May 11 20:25:57 2001 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: Micropolis corporation aftermath. References: <20010512000843.VXWT28559.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <0c1c01c0da82$82490100$0c01a8c0@michaelnadeau> I did a little research and this is the latest item I could come up with: http://www.newsbytes.com/news/98/112009.html Looks like the company was sold off piecemeal. Micropolis was bought by Singapore Technologies (still in business) in 1996, and then ST filed bankruptcy in late 1997. Micropolis was one of the casualties. --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 4:11 PM Subject: Micropolis corporation aftermath. > Hi, > > I have tried to search but this turns up very little on whatabouts of > this Micropolis death and there must be somebody who picked up all > that assets including patents. A company can't be disappeared into > thin air without a bang or grabbed up after the crash of doors. > > This info would be nice to know where that went to. > > At one point Micropolis *was* good maker but fell apart from QC > downfall. > > Any stories on Micropolis stuff is great too. > > The website name is still held and still paid for by somebody. > www.micropolis.com but nothing there so you get redirected to > another hosting webpage business. Otherwise that name would be for > sale. > > Cheers, > > Wizard > From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri May 11 20:52:01 2001 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: Mac HD using floppy interface Message-ID: <20010511.205203.-3497221.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> SOmebody said they were looking for one of these, please contact me off-list. Thanks Jeff ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From jpero at sympatico.ca Fri May 11 17:01:59 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: Micropolis corporation aftermath. In-Reply-To: <0c1c01c0da82$82490100$0c01a8c0@michaelnadeau> Message-ID: <20010512015937.SDBL15234.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > From: "Michael Nadeau" > To: > Subject: Re: Micropolis corporation aftermath. > Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 21:25:57 -0400 > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > I did a little research and this is the latest item I could come up with: > > http://www.newsbytes.com/news/98/112009.html > > Looks like the company was sold off piecemeal. Micropolis was bought by > Singapore Technologies (still in business) in 1996, and then ST filed > bankruptcy in late 1997. Micropolis was one of the casualties. This only involves the actual hardware asset auctions. This doesn't answer the question: what happened to the Micropolis's and the Thai D.D.'s IP? (intellectal property) and their patents? These are the real meat of a business, and somebody had to report upon this. Cheers, Wizard > --Mike From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri May 11 21:08:43 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: In search of 20ma to eia converter Message-ID: <006d01c0da8a$6f234ba0$45749a8d@ajp166> If your systems have a DL(V)11E/f your set with the right cable. That means a PDP-11 (Q or U) or Qbus Vaxen (maybe a U bus). Allison -----Original Message----- From: Megan To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, May 11, 2001 9:38 PM Subject: Re: In search of 20ma to eia converter > >>Which PTR do you have thats 20ma? > >I don't have it in front of me right now, but I think it is the PRS01, >a small reader (6x12x8) which is a table-top unit. > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | >| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | >| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | >| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | >| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | >| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri May 11 21:11:25 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog Message-ID: <006e01c0da8a$6f8e4270$45749a8d@ajp166> Not only that going from TTL to analog you will over dirve in the input amps and likely get ringing or saturation effects. All look bad. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, May 11, 2001 9:26 PM Subject: Re: Converting TTL monitor to Analog >Well, I'm not sure you're entirely wrong here, but the ghosting is probably more >a result of poor signal termination than anything else, and the magnitude of the >reflection from a full-swing digital signal is much more likely to show up than >what you'd get form a 1-volt p-p analog signal. Moreover, since you've got much >smaller transitions on the analog video signal, and since you've got an >automatic gain control in the monitor to offset the losses, the line losses >aren't as much a factor as they'd be without it. Digital signaling was OK back >in the text-only and monochrome era, but once things went to full-spectrum >color, it was necessary to present them in analog. The EGA had 16 (?) colors >(maybe that was 16 shades of each of three colors), which already required some >digital=>analog processing at some stage in the process, and, from what I've >observed, it had to be on the adapter board, since the signal from there to the >monitor was already a small-swing analog signal. > >Gosting is another problem that's never plagued me in this arena. Normally it >can be dealt with by proper termination of the video signal. Some monitors rely >on a 150-ohm resistor in the line and only provide that same amount themselves, >while other have a 75-ohm to ground/return. To accompany this some adapters >have a divider rather than simply a series resistor to the output. It depends >on what's in the combination, how well it will work, but I've not been >sufficiently bothered by any mismatch to warrant hacking either circuit. > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Iggy Drougge" >To: "Richard Erlacher" >Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 5:26 PM >Subject: Re: Converting TTL monitor to Analog > > >> Richard Erlacher skrev: >> >> >What sort of digital interface would such devices use? They'd have to have >> >lots of wires, e.g. 26 or so pairs, if the thing is using 24-bit color. >> >Perish the thought someone would use more color depth than that! It's hard >> >to imagine they'd do that. The number of wires that have to transport >> >high-frequency signal is the reason the analog is still so difficult to >> >surpass. >> >> >After all, a 26-pair shielded cable with an appropriate connector, made in >> >the US, would immediately become the most costly component in a computer >> >system. I doubt a computer maker would go for that, as the 20" monitor >> >(@~$300-$400) is presently the most costly component. That would essentially >> >make the 20" display and cable more than 2/3 the cost of the computer. >> >> But isn't the digital signal less dependent on absolute signal integrity? >> After all, if there can only be two levels, making out the difference can't be >> all that difficult. This also seems to hold true WRT my successful use of >> long, thin, unshielded cables for EGA and CGA monitors without any ghosting. >> >> -- >> En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. >> >> I dunno, I dream in Perl sometimes... >> --Larry Wall in <8538@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV> >> >> > From AugustineUdoh at aol.com Fri May 11 22:07:07 2001 From: AugustineUdoh at aol.com (AugustineUdoh@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: KIM envy Message-ID: <64.df9b726.282e02db@aol.com> Does anyone out there get manuals for HP5036A microprocessor trainer kit? Please let me because I am looking for this manual. Please reply to augustineudoh@aol.com. Thanks A. Udoh -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010511/9a95e9b9/attachment.html From dittman at dittman.net Fri May 11 22:19:42 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: TELEDISK Problem Message-ID: <200105120319.f4C3JgN05601@narnia.int.dittman.net> I'm trying to write some RX50 disk images using Teledisk. I can use 22DISK and PUTR to format the floppies, but Teledisk will not write to them. I get an error that the drive or controller is returning an unsupported status. Since Teledisk has been acquired by the Ministry of Disinformation I can't buy a commercial copy (I've tried 2.12, which locked up my system, and 2.15, which just give the errors an quits). Is there any other program that will write Teledisk image files? -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From cfandt at netsync.net Fri May 11 22:22:16 2001 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: Vintage In-Reply-To: <200105082200.f48M0MC10534@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: <"Russ Blakeman"'s message of "Tue, 8 May 2001 16:13:16 -0500"> Message-ID: <4.1.20010511230347.00aa9c00@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 03:00 PM 5/8/01 -0700, Frank McConnell said something like: >"Russ Blakeman" wrote: >> Much like the term "collectable" - what wide open term. Hell anything is >> collectable since you can collect it, even trash. The local dump has all > >_Everything In Entire World Now Collectible_ > >http://www.theonion.com/onion3710/everything_collectible.html > >"According to a report issued Monday by the North American Collector's >Association, every single thing currently being manufactured is officially >categorized as a collectible." > >-Frank McConnell I read that article through completely and kept expecting to see "Nya-nya! Fooled ya!!" or "April Fool!" or some such. No, I didn't see such a message. The author's style of writing it was straight-faced. Sheesh, could this crap be real?? Then I went to the main page of what's called The Onion and, to my relief, had a good laugh at what I saw. Hadn't checked out The Onion before now. Looks like a cross between National Lampoon and the National Enquirer. News articles in this issue: "North Dakota Drinks Itself To Sleep Again", "Work Avoided Through Extensive List-Making", "New Dog Sick Of Being Compared To Old One", etc. What a hoot. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From edick at idcomm.com Fri May 11 22:58:37 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog References: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0007A271@BUSH02> Message-ID: <003c01c0da97$d31a31c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> well, the boxes with intended for multidrop or high-bandwidth serialized compressed digital video are not on topic for this thread. We're trying to establish whether there really are digital interfaces to the old (get it...classic computers... over 10-years old ... using interfaces of that era) monitors associated with the PC's and MAC's of the EGA era. The use of sufficient logic or intelligence to manage lossless compression at the monitor end was not a reality back in the '80's. I suspect that there's a significant mismatch between this technology and the PC's of the '80's, with which these TTL or analog monitors under discussion go. See below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Davison, Lee" To: Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 9:51 AM Subject: RE: Converting TTL monitor to Analog > > > If it's serialized then it's really moving along! if you've got 1K > pixels at a > nominally 65 MHz pixel rate with 24 bits per pixel ... I assume the > designers at > least use three channels, one for each color, so as to reduce that > to 8 bits per > pixel, right? > > Use lossless compression, then even hires displays rarely get over 20Mb/s > > For most applications, the distance from the "box" to the display > isn't far at > all, but I can see the benefit where a large display might be > desirable, as in a > classroom or demonstration environment. > > Or multi drop. > > Nevertheless, aside from relatively small signal losses, there isn't > a big > advantage, aside from the fact that every display manufacturer can > process the > signal however he prefers. > > Cheaper connectors, cheaper cable, no mismatch artifacts... > yes, but not in the market where that price difference would show up next to the $10k per monitor for the intelligence required to manage the compression and the DAC's to handle the bandwidth, plus the support logic. > > What sort of connector is used for the serialized digital > arrangement? > > BNC mostly. > So you'be suggesting 5 bnc's? three for video and two for sync signals? > > Lee. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The > information contained in this email may contain information which is > confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender > and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. > > If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please > delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International > IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. > > ________________________________________________________________________ > This message has been checked for all known viruses, by Star Internet, > delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. > For further information visit: > http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 11 23:16:08 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: TELEDISK Problem In-Reply-To: <200105120319.f4C3JgN05601@narnia.int.dittman.net> from "Eric Dittman" at May 11, 2001 10:19:42 PM Message-ID: <200105120416.VAA10529@shell1.aracnet.com> > I'm trying to write some RX50 disk images > using Teledisk. I can use 22DISK and PUTR > to format the floppies, but Teledisk will > not write to them. I get an error that > the drive or controller is returning an > unsupported status. What happens if you format them as MS-DOS floppies, and then try to get Teledisk to write to them? I believe that is the way Teledisk expects them to be. Zane From dittman at dittman.net Fri May 11 23:41:41 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: TELEDISK Problem In-Reply-To: <200105120416.VAA10529@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at May 11, 2001 09:16:08 PM Message-ID: <200105120441.f4C4ffC05975@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > I'm trying to write some RX50 disk images > > using Teledisk. I can use 22DISK and PUTR > > to format the floppies, but Teledisk will > > not write to them. I get an error that > > the drive or controller is returning an > > unsupported status. > > What happens if you format them as MS-DOS floppies, and then try to get > Teledisk to write to them? I believe that is the way Teledisk expects them > to be. I'll try that and see. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From dittman at dittman.net Fri May 11 23:56:11 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: TELEDISK Problem In-Reply-To: <200105120416.VAA10529@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at May 11, 2001 09:16:08 PM Message-ID: <200105120456.f4C4uBa06018@narnia.int.dittman.net> > What happens if you format them as MS-DOS floppies, and then try to get > Teledisk to write to them? I believe that is the way Teledisk expects them > to be. I tried to format them as MSDOS floppies. Track 0 writes okay, but then Teledisk fails with the message that Track 1 Side 0 Sector 10 can't be found. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat May 12 00:07:52 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: DRV11-WA info Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010511213225.0238a380@208.226.86.10> Well, wandering through my handbook collection for something that might be interesting I came across the Microcomputer Products Handbook from 1985. This is a 'Q-bus products overview' book. And lo' and behold we find the tech sheet for the DRV11-WA which is the replacement for the mature DRV11-B. That being said, I'm now on the hunt for DEC document EK-DRVWA-UG the DRV11-WA Users Guide. I'll happily trade a DELQUA users guide or a DHV11 users guide for it. I even found a cab kit for it in my box of misc cab kits. What I haven't yet figured out is how it DMAs into a 22bit address space with a 16 bit Bus Address register. Perhaps there are some bits in the CSR to set bits 18 through 21. In processing a google search I discovered that the DECUS.org archives are now not where they used to be (I couldn't find them easily) Perhaps the coolest thing I've seen so far is that you can almost use this thing to create a front panel for an LSI-11 system. You can certainly deposit and examine memory and start and stop the processor :-) --Chuck From dittman at dittman.net Sat May 12 01:06:24 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: TELEDISK Problem Message-ID: <200105120606.f4C66OX06206@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > What happens if you format them as MS-DOS floppies, and then try to get > > Teledisk to write to them? I believe that is the way Teledisk expects them > > to be. > > I tried to format them as MSDOS floppies. Track 0 > writes okay, but then Teledisk fails with the message > that Track 1 Side 0 Sector 10 can't be found. I searched around and found another Teledisk 2.15 archive. This archive had two different sets of Teledisk, one of which used the BIOS and the other a direct method to access the floppies. I'm now able to write using the direct method. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Sat May 12 03:24:32 2001 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0007A272@BUSH02> well, the boxes with intended for multidrop or high-bandwidth serialized compressed digital video are not on topic for this thread. We're trying to establish whether there really are digital interfaces to the old (get it...classic computers... over 10-years old ... using interfaces of that era) Sorry but digital video wasn't new when I started in broadcasting in the early 80s. The BBC used digital for distribution and moving captions were stored digitally (remember the translucent spinning globe? Megabytes of data compressed into a 600kbyte EPROM store). So you'be suggesting 5 bnc's? three for video and two for sync signals? No, one. Lee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The information contained in this email may contain information which is confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. ________________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses, by Star Internet, delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit: http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp From optimus at canit.se Fri May 11 23:34:32 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: McI*netting In-Reply-To: <001b01c0da69$fe491ec0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <893.532T1600T3345229optimus@canit.se> John Allain skrev: >Since McI's were being discussed. >I picked up what I thought was a 10bT adaptor >for Mac this weekend. It fits the quadra and had >an RJ45, but... It's marked 'Dayna EasyNet'. >Could this be right? Thought it would/should be >an Apple product, being such a basic need. ?h? I don't understand what you're getting at. Granted, Apple made Ethernet adaptors too, but that didn't prevent several other companies from specialising in that business, just like others specialised in graphic cards. Unless... you're thinking of an AAUI transceiver. In that case, there are several explanations; 1) there was a need for such transceivers, and 2) some third-party cards used AAUI as well, and it wouldn't look good if it came with an Apple transceiver, would it? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "It is easier to port a shell than a shell script." --Larry Wall From allain at panix.com Sat May 12 07:23:47 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: McI*netting References: <893.532T1600T3345229optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <00c001c0dade$651a6f40$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> I't just that an RJ45 didn't Have to be ethernet, so I had to check. Also, it was small enough that I wasn't even thinking it was a transciever, so thanks Pete T. Most modern networking cards pin out at 10bT anyway, wonder what the native signals are here (Quadra)? Also I wasn't thinging of the cost angle. Oh, Apple! Yeah that costs. John A. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat May 12 08:10:02 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: McI*netting In-Reply-To: "John Allain" "Re: McI*netting" (May 12, 8:23) References: <893.532T1600T3345229optimus@canit.se> <00c001c0dade$651a6f40$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <10105121410.ZM12593@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 12, 8:23, John Allain wrote: > I't just that an RJ45 didn't Have to be ethernet, so I had to check. Indeed, it could be a serial connector, a phone jack, ISDN, or even (if you were looking at an Asante FriendlyNet adaptor) the AUI side of a transceiver. > Also, it was small enough that I wasn't even thinking it was a > transciever, so thanks Pete T. Most modern networking cards > pin out at 10bT anyway, wonder what the native signals are here > (Quadra)? Well, I'm assuming that what you have is a small box with an RJ45 socket, and a short cable with something that looks like a tiny Centronics printer plug, but with fewer pins? That's the AAUI (Apple Attachment Unit Interface) connector. > Also I wasn't thinging of the cost angle. > Oh, Apple! Yeah that costs. :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat May 12 09:05:53 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: DRV11-WA info In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010511213225.0238a380@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: >In processing a google search I discovered that the DECUS.org archives are >now not where they used to be (I couldn't find them easily) Which archives? I just logged into Eisner and started up NOTES. The only difference I see is it says EncompasServe instead of DECUServe >Perhaps the coolest thing I've seen so far is that you can almost use this >thing to create a front panel for an LSI-11 system. You can certainly >deposit and examine memory and start and stop the processor :-) Now that would be an interesting project! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From edick at idcomm.com Sat May 12 09:18:04 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: Converting TTL monitor to Analog References: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0007A272@BUSH02> Message-ID: <002301c0daee$5c393ae0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Davison, Lee" To: Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2001 2:24 AM Subject: RE: Converting TTL monitor to Analog > > well, the boxes with intended for multidrop or high-bandwidth > serialized > compressed digital video are not on topic for this thread. We're > trying to > establish whether there really are digital interfaces to the old > (get > it...classic computers... over 10-years old ... using interfaces of > that era) > > Sorry but digital video wasn't new when I started in broadcasting in the early 80s. > The BBC used digital for distribution and moving captions were stored digitally > (remember the translucent spinning globe? Megabytes of data compressed into > a 600kbyte EPROM store). > Nothing digital was new back in the early '80's. However, workstations in the early '80's had video DAC outputs that operated at 275 MHz (and cost about $3 per MHz) and that stuff didn't go in the monitor, which, IIRC, cost on the order of $12k for a useable (analog) 19" type. Generally speaking, those weren't multi-sync type monitors, either. Back then, all the technology was in place, but the market was so limited none of the economies of scale that later came into play to make these things affordable were available. > In the early '80's, a 600KB EPROM store would have cost as much as a medium-priced VAX. I remember paying $120 each for 2732's in the early '80's. That was 4KB with 450ns access time. > > So you'be suggesting 5 bnc's? three for video and two for sync > signals? > > No, one. > While it was common to put negative-going sync on positive-going analog video, and while monitors with the necessary video bandwidth to display 1kx768 (nominally) pixels at considerable resolution (6 bits/color, using TRW Triple-DAC's costing close to $1k in "production" quantity) This wasn't done with digital signals on the monitors I saw. Even with common ECL, the bandwidth just wasn't there to produce the necessary number of bits within the necessary amount of time to produce a 60 (or even 50) Hz vertical rate with the necessary number of horizontal sweeps and pixels per sweep. The "fast" DACs of the time were commonly of the 70ns variety. The "ultra-fast" ones would operate in a compromised mode, maybe to 4-bit resulution, at an 80 MHz conversion rate per DAC. That would have required an overall bandwidth (via a single BNC) on the order of 250 MHz, and most of the logic capable of transferring that sort of bandwidth was used in really expensive hardware, like military supercomputers. PC enthusiasts normally didn't spend that sort of dough on their video systems. > > Lee. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The > information contained in this email may contain information which is > confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender > and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. > > If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please > delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International > IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. > > ________________________________________________________________________ > This message has been checked for all known viruses, by Star Internet, > delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. > For further information visit: > http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp > > From brian at quarterbyte.com Sat May 12 10:31:53 2001 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: PDP-8's; classiccmp-digest V1 #597 References: <200105121407.JAA71312@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <001801c0daf8$abb9a9b0$6401a8c0@quarterbyte.com> Hi Michael, When I read your post about a pallet of ten PDP-8's, it reminded me of an old Far Side cartoon, which had something to do with two cats watching the scene of a truck crash between "Bob's Small Furry Rodents" and ... I don't remember what the other truck said. Anyway, I imagine your message set off salivation glands around the world. I saw a PDP-8 bring in $800 on e-bay a couple of weeks ago. Someone on this list said that a year or two ago, they were going for upwards of $2K. I don't know what they go for at swaps/ hobbyist fairs. In any case, the supply of them is very scarce, due, no doubt, to electronics shop owners who've hoarded them by the pallet load. Whatever you pay for them, I don't think you'll have any trouble getting rid of the ones you can't keep. I'm not yet a collector but have recently started looking for a PDP-8 and a PDP-11. I learned programming on these things and I'd really like to have one to restore and maintain. Whatever happens with this pallet, could you let me know if and when one becomes available? I'd really appreciate it. Thanks Brian Knittel From foo at siconic.com Sat May 12 10:06:51 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: <3091.532T350T153555optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 12 May 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Da Vinci is famous because he (along with a lot of other works) > painted Mona Lisa, not the opposite. If the greatness of Mona Lisa > lies in being touched by him, then wouldn't his utensils be works of > art as well? Silly argument, but I'll humor you by saying they would at least be highly collectable (and highly valued), as they were used to paint the Mona Lisa. Are you starting to see the connection here? > Da Vinci's greatness as an artist stemmed IOW from his ability to > produce great works of art. A work of art is a work of art even if > mass-produced, the last century has taught us as much. Abstractly, yes. The original is a tangible product of the man, hence it's value relative to copies. > But then that is metaphysics, and should we really invest that much > money into something which essentially would be a golden calf? A golden calf, as in idol worshipping? Is this becoming religious? I hope not. Things connect us to the past. Perhaps you keep a memento that reminds you of a dead relative, for example? Or maybe you're an emotionless bastard and you don't, in which case you can't understand my point? > But of course it can! It's built from the same plans and offers the > same functionality. And it has all the historical significance that everything "Made in Taiwan" has. Yes, of course! :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From dittman at dittman.net Sat May 12 11:36:33 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: Pro380 Ethernet Adapter Message-ID: <200105121636.f4CGaXj07746@narnia.int.dittman.net> Since I've now got my Pro380 reloaded from scratch and working, I'm now looking for a DECNA Ethernet interface card so I can connect the Pro380 to my network. If anyone has a spare they'd be willing to sell, please let me know. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From optimus at canit.se Sat May 12 12:45:16 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1823.532T800T11254053optimus@canit.se> Sellam Ismail skrev: >On 12 May 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> Da Vinci is famous because he (along with a lot of other works) >> painted Mona Lisa, not the opposite. If the greatness of Mona Lisa >> lies in being touched by him, then wouldn't his utensils be works of >> art as well? >Silly argument, but I'll humor you by saying they would at least be highly >collectable (and highly valued), as they were used to paint the Mona Lisa. >Are you starting to see the connection here? Of course they would be highly valued, but my point is not whether they are, but whether they should. >> Da Vinci's greatness as an artist stemmed IOW from his ability to >> produce great works of art. A work of art is a work of art even if >> mass-produced, the last century has taught us as much. >Abstractly, yes. The original is a tangible product of the man, hence >it's value relative to copies. Are copies less tangible? >> But then that is metaphysics, and should we really invest that much >> money into something which essentially would be a golden calf? >A golden calf, as in idol worshipping? Is this becoming religious? I >hope not. Things connect us to the past. Perhaps you keep a memento that >reminds you of a dead relative, for example? Or maybe you're an >emotionless bastard and you don't, in which case you can't understand my >point? I'd go for the second. Bastards don't have emotional ties to their relatives. =) >> But of course it can! It's built from the same plans and offers the >> same functionality. >And it has all the historical significance that everything "Made in >Taiwan" has. Yes, of course! It doesn't matter whether it's built in Taiwan or the Czech republic as long as it's according to the plans. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. optimus@dec:foo$ %blow bash: fg: %blow: no such job From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat May 12 11:56:37 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: DRV11-WA info Message-ID: <00a901c0db06$32e85eb0$45749a8d@ajp166> >>Perhaps the coolest thing I've seen so far is that you can almost use this >>thing to create a front panel for an LSI-11 system. You can certainly >>deposit and examine memory and start and stop the processor :-) Really? LSI-11 never stops, it idles in a microcode loop. Also LSI-11 has microcode ODT, that is the front pannel. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat May 12 12:00:39 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: TELEDISK Problem Message-ID: <00aa01c0db06$335f8a80$45749a8d@ajp166> From: Eric Dittman >> > I'm trying to write some RX50 disk images >> > using Teledisk. I can use 22DISK and PUTR >> > to format the floppies, but Teledisk will >> > not write to them. I get an error that >> > the drive or controller is returning an >> > unsupported status. >> >> What happens if you format them as MS-DOS floppies, and then try to get >> Teledisk to write to them? I believe that is the way Teledisk expects them >> to be. > >I'll try that and see. Dont bother. MSdos formats as 9 sectors of 512bytes, RX50 format is 10 sectors of 512bytes. Putr I think will do that as would some DEC diagnostics. RX50 format is: 10 sectors, 512bytes 96 TPI, 80 tracks single sided, double density (250kbs) Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat May 12 12:02:19 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: TELEDISK Problem Message-ID: <00ab01c0db06$33de5770$45749a8d@ajp166> From: Eric Dittman >I'm trying to write some RX50 disk images >using Teledisk. I can use 22DISK and PUTR >to format the floppies, but Teledisk will >not write to them. I get an error that >the drive or controller is returning an >unsupported status. The MSDOS floppies MUST be bulk erased first PRIOR to formatting. I have had poor results otherwise. Allison From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat May 12 12:25:00 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: TELEDISK Problem In-Reply-To: <200105120456.f4C4uBa06018@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: <200105120416.VAA10529@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010512131742.00a01290@mailhost.intellistar.net> Eric, I'm having a similar problem with Teledisk. I was one of the ones that bought their's in the group purchase and I have a registered copy. I've contacted Bruce who made the group purchase and he has contacted the new owner's of teledisk. They both say that they can't find a problem with it but IT WILL NOT WORK FOR ME!!!! It appears to copy disks to files fine and TDCheck says that the files are ok but most of the files are very small, typically 256 bytes. When you try to create a disk from the file it gives the same kind of errors that you're getting. I've tried Teledisk with at least 50 different disks (most KNOWN good) and at least 6 different data formats but the ONLY thing it will copy is MS_DOS disks. I've given up on it. I've already tried everything that everyone has suggested and I'm fed up with telling everyone over and over what I've already done. Chalk it up to a bad investment! Joe At 11:56 PM 5/11/01 -0500, you wrote: > > What happens if you format them as MS-DOS floppies, and then try to get > > Teledisk to write to them? I believe that is the way Teledisk expects them > > to be. > >I tried to format them as MSDOS floppies. Track 0 >writes okay, but then Teledisk fails with the message >that Track 1 Side 0 Sector 10 can't be found. >-- >Eric Dittman >dittman@dittman.net From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat May 12 12:30:50 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: now HP 5036 Change the subject line next time! >>> Re: KIM envy In-Reply-To: <64.df9b726.282e02db@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010512132737.009f8c80@mailhost.intellistar.net> Don't bother. This guy asked me several weeks ago if I had a copy of the manuals. I told him that I had copies of both the owner/training manual and the service manual and offered to make a copy for him at my cost. But he never replied. Don't waste your time. Joe At 11:07 PM 5/11/01 -0400, you wrote: >Does anyone out there get manuals for HP5036A microprocessor trainer kit? >Please let me because I am looking for this manual. Please reply to >augustineudoh@aol.com. Thanks > >A. Udoh From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sat May 12 12:41:13 2001 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: TELEDISK Problem In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010512131742.00a01290@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "joe" at May 12, 2001 01:25:00 PM Message-ID: <200105121741.LAA28763@calico.litterbox.com> Wierd. I bought it then too and it worked fine for me. Are you using it with a genuine 360k 5.25 inch floppy drive? I know there are issues with the track width doing low density disks with a high density drive. -Jim Strickland > > Eric, > > I'm having a similar problem with Teledisk. I was one of the ones that > bought their's in the group purchase and I have a registered copy. I've > contacted Bruce who made the group purchase and he has contacted the new > owner's of teledisk. They both say that they can't find a problem with it > but IT WILL NOT WORK FOR ME!!!! It appears to copy disks to files fine and > TDCheck says that the files are ok but most of the files are very small, > typically 256 bytes. When you try to create a disk from the file it gives > the same kind of errors that you're getting. I've tried Teledisk with at > least 50 different disks (most KNOWN good) and at least 6 different data > formats but the ONLY thing it will copy is MS_DOS disks. I've given up on > it. I've already tried everything that everyone has suggested and I'm fed > up with telling everyone over and over what I've already done. Chalk it up > to a bad investment! > > Joe -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat May 12 13:04:58 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: DRV11-WA info In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010511213225.0238a380@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010512110109.02a76630@208.226.86.10> At 07:05 AM 5/12/01 -0700, Zane wrote: >Which archives? I just logged into Eisner and started up NOTES. The only >difference I see is it says EncompasServe instead of DECUServe The ones at which appears down at the moment. >Now that [front panel] would be an interesting project! It would be fun, from what I've gleaned you can put the card in single cycle mode and drive the memory cycles manually. Thus allowing you to put things into memory where the BAR register is pointing. Changing the BAR from the edge connector is going to be a challenge unless you had two and the second one was set up to DMA into the BAR of the other :-) From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat May 12 13:09:12 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: DRV11-WA info In-Reply-To: <00a901c0db06$32e85eb0$45749a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010512110544.02a6deb0@208.226.86.10> The LSI-11 is "out of the loop" in this case. The DRV11-WA can take over the Q-bus and hold off the processor while it reads or writes memory locations. That gives you the ability to deposit and examine stuff in memory without the processor involved. Next the LSI-11 does honor the BHALT state which gives you a run/halt capability and of course reset as well. What we're missing is a way to load the PC on the LSI 11 externally, but we can do some of that using an interrupt vector and by manipulating one of the vector locations to have the PC where you want the system to start. Yes, its a kludge on a major scale, but its blinkenlights :-) --Chuck At 12:56 PM 5/12/01 -0400, you wrote: > >>Perhaps the coolest thing I've seen so far is that you can almost use >this > >>thing to create a front panel for an LSI-11 system. You can certainly > >>deposit and examine memory and start and stop the processor :-) > > >Really? LSI-11 never stops, it idles in a microcode loop. Also LSI-11 >has >microcode ODT, that is the front pannel. > >Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat May 12 13:14:10 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: TELEDISK Problem Message-ID: <00be01c0db10$b3be3280$45749a8d@ajp166> From: joe >the same kind of errors that you're getting. I've tried Teledisk with at >least 50 different disks (most KNOWN good) and at least 6 different data >formats but the ONLY thing it will copy is MS_DOS disks. I've given up on >it. I've already tried everything that everyone has suggested and I'm fed What your havent tried is differnt controllers and different drives. I found an old 486 or 386 machine to be less troublesome and also has fewer preconceived notions of the world. Also I ran dos not windows(any version)! I was able to make Venix disks for my Pro many years ago and also OS278 (also rx50). What I had to do however was to play with the jumpers on a TEAC FD55GFV (the verseion with many jumpers) to lock out the 1.2mb mode. I may add My experience is with the older (must be at least 6 years old) copy of the freeware version of teledisk not the full bore commercial. Allison From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat May 12 13:30:20 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: board id/finds In-Reply-To: board id/finds (Chuck McManis) References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010511173410.02aa21c0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <15101.33084.734758.356476@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 11, Chuck McManis wrote: > However, one of the other things was an Emulex board that I'm trying to > identify. It has these numbers: > K12S12/500W > SN: AAG6933 CM > Assy #: QS0910201-02 > > Then four high density 36 pin honda connectors on an Sbox handle. There is > also a small three position switch labeled 'norm', 'reset', and 'setup.' > I'm guessing it is some sort of async port. Anyone know for sure? Does > anyone know the actual Emulex model number and if cables are available? If > its a 32 port serial card it would be pretty cool. Emulex QS09: 16 port async mux. -Dave McGuire From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat May 12 13:37:46 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: TELEDISK Problem In-Reply-To: <200105121741.LAA28763@calico.litterbox.com> References: <5.1.0.14.1.20010512131742.00a01290@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010512143043.00a042a0@mailhost.intellistar.net> I swapped my 1.2mb drive for a Teac 360k drive. No difference. I tried both BIOS and Direct settings with no difference. I'm running MS_DOS and rebooted with NO drivers or TSRs but nothing helps. The one odd thing is that it's NOT making a good copy of a disk even though it reports that it has. TDCheck also reports that it's a good copy. But obviously it can't be if the file size is only 256 bytes and the original disk was full. I know it seems to be working for nearly everyone else but Teledisk simply will not work for me! My only guess at this point is that perhaps it's incompatible with my FD controller IC. But BIOS should isolate it from that, so who knows. Joe At 11:41 AM 5/12/01 -0600, you wrote: >Wierd. I bought it then too and it worked fine for me. Are you using it with >a genuine 360k 5.25 inch floppy drive? I know there are issues with the >track width doing low density disks with a high density drive. > >-Jim Strickland > > > > > Eric, > > > > I'm having a similar problem with Teledisk. I was one of the ones > that > > bought their's in the group purchase and I have a registered copy. I've > > contacted Bruce who made the group purchase and he has contacted the new > > owner's of teledisk. They both say that they can't find a problem with it > > but IT WILL NOT WORK FOR ME!!!! It appears to copy disks to files fine and > > TDCheck says that the files are ok but most of the files are very small, > > typically 256 bytes. When you try to create a disk from the file it gives > > the same kind of errors that you're getting. I've tried Teledisk with at > > least 50 different disks (most KNOWN good) and at least 6 different data > > formats but the ONLY thing it will copy is MS_DOS disks. I've given > up on > > it. I've already tried everything that everyone has suggested and I'm fed > > up with telling everyone over and over what I've already done. Chalk > it up > > to a bad investment! > > > > Joe > > >-- >Jim Strickland >jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > BeOS Powered! >----------------------------------------------------------------------- From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat May 12 13:45:07 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: TELEDISK Problem In-Reply-To: <00be01c0db10$b3be3280$45749a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010512143831.009faa00@mailhost.intellistar.net> Allison, At 02:14 PM 5/12/01 -0400, you wrote: >From: joe > >the same kind of errors that you're getting. I've tried Teledisk with >at > >least 50 different disks (most KNOWN good) and at least 6 different data > >formats but the ONLY thing it will copy is MS_DOS disks. I've given up >on > >it. I've already tried everything that everyone has suggested and I'm >fed > > >What your havent tried is differnt controllers and different drives. I have tried it with two 1.2Mb drives and one 360k drive. I haven't changed the controller since my video card, HD controller and ports are all on the same card. I would have to rebuild the system to replace that card. >I found an old 486 or 386 machine to be less troublesome and also >has fewer preconceived notions of the world. Also I ran dos not >windows(any version)! Absolutely! I run everything that I can in DOS mode. Also I'm using a 486-100. FWIW I've run lots of other weird file conversion SW should as the HP LIF utilities with no problems. I also used a lot of odd interfaces (on occasion) in it and I've had no problem with them. I have a couple more old PCs laying around for parts. I need to try Teledisk on them but I'm so discusted with it that I haven't bothered. Joe >I was able to make Venix disks for my Pro many years ago and also >OS278 (also rx50). What I had to do however was to play with the >jumpers on a TEAC FD55GFV (the verseion with many jumpers) >to lock out the 1.2mb mode. > >I may add My experience is with the older (must be at least 6 years old) >copy of the freeware version of teledisk not the full bore commercial. > >Allison From donm at cts.com Sat May 12 14:55:21 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:17 2005 Subject: TELEDISK Problem In-Reply-To: <00be01c0db10$b3be3280$45749a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 May 2001, ajp166 wrote: > From: joe > >the same kind of errors that you're getting. I've tried Teledisk with > at > >least 50 different disks (most KNOWN good) and at least 6 different data > >formats but the ONLY thing it will copy is MS_DOS disks. I've given up > on > >it. I've already tried everything that everyone has suggested and I'm > fed > > > What your havent tried is differnt controllers and different drives. > > I found an old 486 or 386 machine to be less troublesome and also > has fewer preconceived notions of the world. Also I ran dos not > windows(any version)! I regularly run TeleDisk v2.12 and 2.22 (though I started with v1.05) on a 386 all-in-one card (passive backplane) using its onboard controller with an out of the box Teac FD55-GFR 1.2mb drive. Other drives - 360k, 3" Hitachi (for Amstrad disks), and 8" Mitsubishi half-high run with a CompatiCard IV. Copying and reproduction of RX50 disks on the GFR drive have been no problem. > I was able to make Venix disks for my Pro many years ago and also > OS278 (also rx50). What I had to do however was to play with the > jumpers on a TEAC FD55GFV (the verseion with many jumpers) > to lock out the 1.2mb mode. > > I may add My experience is with the older (must be at least 6 years old) > copy of the freeware version of teledisk not the full bore commercial. For a given version that was available as shareware, there was no difference between that and the commercial item. - don > Allison > > From donm at cts.com Sat May 12 15:04:19 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: TELEDISK Problem In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010512143043.00a042a0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 May 2001, joe wrote: > I swapped my 1.2mb drive for a Teac 360k drive. No difference. I > tried both BIOS and Direct settings with no difference. I'm running MS_DOS > and rebooted with NO drivers or TSRs but nothing helps. The one odd thing > is that it's NOT making a good copy of a disk even though it reports that > it has. TDCheck also reports that it's a good copy. But obviously it can't > be if the file size is only 256 bytes and the original disk was full. I > know it seems to be working for nearly everyone else but Teledisk simply > will not work for me! My only guess at this point is that perhaps it's > incompatible with my FD controller IC. But BIOS should isolate it from > that, so who knows. Not so. Neither BIOS nor DIRECT mode can isolate you from your FD controller IC. In either case it is what 'talks' to the drive electronics. DIRECT simply talks directly to the IC and avoids BIOS calls. - don > > Joe > > > At 11:41 AM 5/12/01 -0600, you wrote: > >Wierd. I bought it then too and it worked fine for me. Are you using it with > >a genuine 360k 5.25 inch floppy drive? I know there are issues with the > >track width doing low density disks with a high density drive. > > > >-Jim Strickland > > > > > > > > Eric, > > > > > > I'm having a similar problem with Teledisk. I was one of the ones > > that > > > bought their's in the group purchase and I have a registered copy. I've > > > contacted Bruce who made the group purchase and he has contacted the new > > > owner's of teledisk. They both say that they can't find a problem with it > > > but IT WILL NOT WORK FOR ME!!!! It appears to copy disks to files fine and > > > TDCheck says that the files are ok but most of the files are very small, > > > typically 256 bytes. When you try to create a disk from the file it gives > > > the same kind of errors that you're getting. I've tried Teledisk with at > > > least 50 different disks (most KNOWN good) and at least 6 different data > > > formats but the ONLY thing it will copy is MS_DOS disks. I've given > > up on > > > it. I've already tried everything that everyone has suggested and I'm fed > > > up with telling everyone over and over what I've already done. Chalk > > it up > > > to a bad investment! > > > > > > Joe > > > > > >-- > >Jim Strickland > >jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > BeOS Powered! > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From donm at cts.com Sat May 12 15:11:05 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: TELEDISK Problem In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010512143831.009faa00@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 May 2001, joe wrote: > Allison, > > At 02:14 PM 5/12/01 -0400, you wrote: > >From: joe > > >the same kind of errors that you're getting. I've tried Teledisk with > >at > > >least 50 different disks (most KNOWN good) and at least 6 different data > > >formats but the ONLY thing it will copy is MS_DOS disks. I've given up > >on > > >it. I've already tried everything that everyone has suggested and I'm > >fed > > > > > >What your havent tried is differnt controllers and different drives. > > > I have tried it with two 1.2Mb drives and one 360k drive. I haven't > changed the controller since my video card, HD controller and ports are all > on the same card. I would have to rebuild the system to replace that card. You might be able to add an FDC with its own onboard BIOS as a second FDC and try it that way, or possibly disable the inboard FDC on your card and use a separate FDC for all of the floppies. - don > >I found an old 486 or 386 machine to be less troublesome and also > >has fewer preconceived notions of the world. Also I ran dos not > >windows(any version)! > > Absolutely! I run everything that I can in DOS mode. Also I'm using > a 486-100. FWIW I've run lots of other weird file conversion SW should > as the HP LIF utilities with no problems. I also used a lot of odd > interfaces (on occasion) in it and I've had no problem with them. > > I have a couple more old PCs laying around for parts. I need to try > Teledisk on them but I'm so discusted with it that I haven't bothered. > Joe > > > >I was able to make Venix disks for my Pro many years ago and also > >OS278 (also rx50). What I had to do however was to play with the > >jumpers on a TEAC FD55GFV (the verseion with many jumpers) > >to lock out the 1.2mb mode. > > > >I may add My experience is with the older (must be at least 6 years old) > >copy of the freeware version of teledisk not the full bore commercial. > > > >Allison > > From donm at cts.com Sat May 12 15:15:32 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: TELEDISK Problem In-Reply-To: <200105120416.VAA10529@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 May 2001 healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > I'm trying to write some RX50 disk images > > using Teledisk. I can use 22DISK and PUTR > > to format the floppies, but Teledisk will > > not write to them. I get an error that > > the drive or controller is returning an > > unsupported status. > > What happens if you format them as MS-DOS floppies, and then try to get > Teledisk to write to them? I believe that is the way Teledisk expects them > to be. > > Zane Not so, in writing to a floppy, TeleDisk looks at it as a blank disk. In attempts to read it later, however, residual 48tpi tracks might confuse a 96tpi reading on another drive. - don From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat May 12 16:46:47 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: TELEDISK Problem Message-ID: <00cf01c0db2e$1384e930$45749a8d@ajp166> From: joe >>What your havent tried is differnt controllers and different drives. > > > I have tried it with two 1.2Mb drives and one 360k drive. I haven't >changed the controller since my video card, HD controller and ports are all >on the same card. I would have to rebuild the system to replace that card. Which 1.2mb drive? First of RX50 is not 1.2 compatable, it's 96tpi (as most 1.2mb drives are) and would corrspond to a 360k formatted 5.25 (single sided). A 360k drive is NOT useable for RX50 format. The usual 360k media is fine however. > Absolutely! I run everything that I can in DOS mode. Also I'm using >a 486-100. FWIW I've run lots of other weird file conversion SW should >as the HP LIF utilities with no problems. I also used a lot of odd >interfaces (on occasion) in it and I've had no problem with them. Doesnt rule out bios/hardware though. > I have a couple more old PCs laying around for parts. I need to try >Teledisk on them but I'm so discusted with it that I haven't bothered. maybe. I found that the standard teac FD55GFR in my system had to be jumpered correctly to work right. The likely reason was the TEAC I used came from a DEC system (also called RX33) so I know TEAC are compatable at the drive level for the media (rx50). Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat May 12 16:54:12 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: TELEDISK Problem Message-ID: <00e001c0db2f$22b5f5b0$45749a8d@ajp166> From: joe > I swapped my 1.2mb drive for a Teac 360k drive. No difference. I >tried both BIOS and Direct settings with no difference. I'm running MS_DOS >and rebooted with NO drivers or TSRs but nothing helps. The one odd thing That will not work. RX50 is 96tpi and ALL 360k drivs are 48TPI, a non starter. The TEAC FD55GFV is the same drive DEC used (RX33) which is 1.2mb and RX50 (400k single sided) compatable. The trick is getting the controller and drive to interface right and the software should follow. >know it seems to be working for nearly everyone else but Teledisk simply >will not work for me! My only guess at this point is that perhaps it's >incompatible with my FD controller IC. But BIOS should isolate it from >that, so who knows. Some FDCs cannot do the 10 sector format, end game. Actually most 765 based designs are not best suited as the GAPs and IRGs are very small (below reasonable). The DEC designs Pro, Rainbow, Decmate, VT180 used WD1793 (not used on PCs) and only the PDP-11/VAX designs used a 765 biased (SMC9224) design for the MSCP controller (RQDX) which could format and read/write the RX50. Hoep that helps some. Me I'd try a different (meaning secondary) disk controller in the same 486/100 box. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat May 12 17:01:33 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: DRV11-WA info Message-ID: <00e201c0db2f$238be350$45749a8d@ajp166> From: Chuck McManis >things into memory where the BAR register is pointing. Changing the BAR >from the edge connector is going to be a challenge unless you had two and >the second one was set up to DMA into the BAR of the other :-) Since the DEC chipset used made getting at the DMA address and DMA counters impossible from the card edge (it was a bus interface) it's awkward at best. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat May 12 16:59:18 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: DRV11-WA info Message-ID: <00e101c0db2f$23227320$45749a8d@ajp166> From: Chuck McManis >The LSI-11 is "out of the loop" in this case. The DRV11-WA can take over >the Q-bus and hold off the processor while it reads or writes memory >locations. That gives you the ability to deposit and examine stuff in Hard way to go. ;) >What we're missing is a way to load the PC on the LSI 11 externally, but we >can do some of that using an interrupt vector and by manipulating one of >the vector locations to have the PC where you want the system to start. two locations 04 and 24 are candidates. If memory serves 24 is powerfail restart. >Yes, its a kludge on a major scale, but its blinkenlights :-) Yes, blinkin lights are cool but even in 1977 they were considered a PITA rather than an aid save for special cases. I busted enough fingers on 8s, 11s and altairs/imsais to keep me unhappy. I see putting blinkin lights on machines that never had them to be a guilding the Lilly pointlessness. Allison From edick at idcomm.com Sat May 12 17:31:38 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: Docs for DRV-11? References: Message-ID: <002401c0db33$4f404140$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I didn't know it was practical to use mass storage devices under VMS without using the MSCP. Gee ... I didn't think I'd ever learn anything more about DEC machines ... ... I really didn't particularly want to. The DRV-11WA is the model I used to hook an E3A diagnostic channel to an MV-II ... an ugly experience, though not DEC's fault. It's too bad the PC folks didn't think of a way to hook an external device to the PC internals without direct access to the bus the way this board does things. That allows you to aviod the "broken" I/O device from making the system "broken" as well. I still have the doc's for that I/O board around somewhere. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 12:16 PM Subject: Re: Docs for DRV-11? > > > > How will the DRV-11 help you hook into MSCP? It's a good and VERY flexible > > Who said anything about MSCP. I assumed he was going to make a > hardware-compatible SCSI interface, and then write a special driver for > whatever OS he's running to set the lines to the appropriate states in > the right sequence. No reason why that wouldn't work -- plenty of the > older DEC disk drives weren't MSCP devices. > > > card, but not intended for use as a file device. It does, of course, support > > DMA. > > Some DR(V)-11 versions support DMA (the -W does, and certainly the DR11-B > does -- is there a Qbus version of that?). Others don't. > > -tony > > From ken at seefried.com Sat May 12 17:42:45 2001 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: Power supply question In-Reply-To: <200105121407.JAA71312@opal.tseinc.com> References: <200105121407.JAA71312@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <20010512224245.5305.qmail@mail.seefried.com> Forgive me if this is a silly question; it never got covered in my digital electronics classes :-). Is a modern switching power supply a suitable replacement for an ancient (and dead) linear power supply in a classic computer (PDP-11, FWIW)? Ken From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 12 18:07:44 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: Power supply question In-Reply-To: <20010512224245.5305.qmail@mail.seefried.com> from "Ken Seefried" at May 12, 1 10:42:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1159 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010513/e85431ae/attachment.ksh From chomko at greenbelt.com Sat May 12 19:02:50 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On References: <1823.532T800T11254053optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3AFDCF29.233031D0@greenbelt.com> Pardon me for jumping in... Iggy Drougge wrote: > Sellam Ismail skrev: > > >On 12 May 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > > >> Da Vinci is famous because he (along with a lot of other works) > >> painted Mona Lisa, not the opposite. If the greatness of Mona Lisa > >> lies in being touched by him, then wouldn't his utensils be works of > >> art as well? > > >Silly argument, but I'll humor you by saying they would at least be highly > >collectable (and highly valued), as they were used to paint the Mona Lisa. > >Are you starting to see the connection here? > > Of course they would be highly valued, but my point is not whether they are, > but whether they should. > Whether something or anything "should" WRT the world is basically a "why" question. A wise man once told me that the answer to every "why" question is "because." > > >> Da Vinci's greatness as an artist stemmed IOW from his ability to > >> produce great works of art. A work of art is a work of art even if > >> mass-produced, the last century has taught us as much. > > >Abstractly, yes. The original is a tangible product of the man, hence > >it's value relative to copies. > > Are copies less tangible? No, more tangible, and that is the point! When speaking of rarity and value one deals with supply and demand. The demand for copies of originals can always met, therefore the price is low. The demand for a unique item will drive the price of the item up as long as more than one person wants it. Why is it like that? Because! > > > >> But then that is metaphysics, and should we really invest that much > >> money into something which essentially would be a golden calf? > > >A golden calf, as in idol worshipping? Is this becoming religious? I > >hope not. Things connect us to the past. Perhaps you keep a memento that > >reminds you of a dead relative, for example? Or maybe you're an > >emotionless bastard and you don't, in which case you can't understand my > >point? > > I'd go for the second. Bastards don't have emotional ties to their relatives. > =) > > >> But of course it can! It's built from the same plans and offers the > >> same functionality. > > >And it has all the historical significance that everything "Made in > >Taiwan" has. Yes, of course! > > It doesn't matter whether it's built in Taiwan or the Czech republic as long > as it's according to the plans. > That's not exactly correct when trying to determine the value of something. By your own arguement, no one here should collect an old computer based upon functionality, as I can buy a new one than can out perform the old ones. Therefore, no one should bother with older ones regardless of model or type. Eric > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > optimus@dec:foo$ %blow > bash: fg: %blow: no such job From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat May 12 19:54:55 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: FDCs -- was Re: TELEDISK Problem In-Reply-To: "ajp166" "Re: TELEDISK Problem" (May 12, 14:14) References: <00be01c0db10$b3be3280$45749a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <10105130154.ZM12921@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 12, 14:14, ajp166 wrote: > What your havent tried is differnt controllers and different drives. > > I found an old 486 or 386 machine to be less troublesome and also > has fewer preconceived notions of the world. Also I ran dos not > windows(any version)! > > I was able to make Venix disks for my Pro many years ago and also > OS278 (also rx50). What I had to do however was to play with the > jumpers on a TEAC FD55GFV (the verseion with many jumpers) > to lock out the 1.2mb mode. Which leads me to think about a tangentially-related problem -- I recall that some FDCs insist upon the index mark at the start of the track, and some don't, but I can't remember which FDCs do/don't (I think WD 37C65 etc need it but NatSemi DP8473 and WD 1770/1772 don't care). Also, I recall that some FDCs are more likely to work with 8" drives than others, and some are more likely to work at single density than others (at least, some PC ISA controllers are unlikely to work at SD because the relevant components are not there). I want to set up a PC to use with 8" drives, including single density, mostly with 22DISK. I have a choice of 386/486/Pentium motherboards, and a selection of ISA controllers, with an assortment of 765, 8272, 37C65, and 8473 FDCs (I haven't checked, but I'm pretty sure I have at least one of each). What is most likely to work? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ip500 at home.com Sat May 12 20:31:52 2001 From: ip500 at home.com (ip500) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: Power supply question References: Message-ID: <3AFDE408.FE682A95@home.com> Would a "modern" switching supply ie: a cheap, generic PC supply have enough output to run a vintage machine? I had considered doing that with some totally fried HP supplies I've got hanging around. For the HP 1000 series machines ... huge modular aluminium boxes with plenty of room inside to hide a modern supply. As I recall [from a frequently faulty memory] the HP drew about 20 amps or so on the +5 line. Shouldn't be too hard to pull a couple of the faulty cards to make room for the much smaller [physically] supply. Might be a problem with lack of decent air circulation for cooling though. Again from memory ... even the CE's really didn't want to fool with repairing the PS units on these. When I bought a bunch of HP gear there were 8 or 10 dead supplies that had been stashed away to maybe fix "someday'. Craig Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > Forgive me if this is a silly question; it never got covered in my digital > > electronics classes :-). > > > > Is a modern switching power supply a suitable replacement for an ancient > > (and dead) linear power supply in a classic computer (PDP-11, FWIW)? > > Electrically, it should work. Most modern SMPSUs do have a minimum load > current (if you don't give them enough load they may not work, and may > even be damaged), but any classic computer should be enough load for any > reasonable PSU. > > However, I personally perfer to keep my computers as original as > possible, and in particular I don't like replacing well-documented, > repairable sections (like PDP11 PSUs, for which full schematics are > available) with an undocumented modern part (and to be honest, the DEC > PSUs are a lot better made than, say, 'generic' PC PSUs). > > I've never seen a PDP11 with a linear PSU (and I've worked on many > models). Many of them did have a mains-frequency transformer, but it was > followed by _switching_ regulators, at least for the main outputs (+5V, > -15V). > > What is the machine, and what is the PSU? It's likely somebody here has > the schematics for it. > > -tony From radioantique1 at sympatico.ca Sat May 12 20:44:32 2001 From: radioantique1 at sympatico.ca (robert zamboni) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: Apple Lisa 2 conversion back to Lisa 1 Message-ID: <3AFDE700.8080902@sympatico.ca> I have several Lisa 2's and a pair of twiggy floppies plus a old Lisa CPU board with Lisa 1 ROM's on it. When boot system get 2 drive icon. Is it possible to convert the Lisa 2's back to Lisa 1 with this CPU board and the two twiggy drives?. Does anybody have doc's for the twiggy drives. I am lucking enough to have a new floppy for them. thanks From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat May 12 21:30:44 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: Power supply question Message-ID: <00f701c0db54$e7814b40$45749a8d@ajp166> From: ip500 > Would a "modern" switching supply ie: a cheap, generic PC supply >have enough output to run a vintage machine? I had considered doing that At best the answer is maybe. Reason is I have no idea of the specific vintage machines power needs. For example the average PC power supply can run from 145-350 watts and that alone covers a lot of ground. Ther other problem is most of the PC power supplies outout is +5 and some +12, some of the vintage machines may have heavier needs for +12 or maybe -12. Another example is the PDP-8/f I have, a 250W PC supply would easily satisfy the +5v needs but would fail badly as the PDP-8 wants +15 and -15 something a PC supply cannot do. >faulty memory] the HP drew about 20 amps or so on the +5 line. Shouldn't >be too hard to pull a couple of the faulty cards to make room for the >much smaller [physically] supply. Might be a problem with lack of decent >air circulation for cooling though. > Again from memory ... even the CE's really didn't want to fool with >repairing the PS units on these. When I bought a bunch of HP gear there >were 8 or 10 dead supplies that had been stashed away to maybe fix >"someday'. Many people are scared of PS units. Switch mode PSUs are harder to fix than linear. Then again I fixed a BA123 supply by replacing a failed internal fuse! So first testing and deciding how bad the failed unit is likely first order of the day. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat May 12 21:41:40 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: FDCs -- was Re: TELEDISK Problem Message-ID: <00fe01c0db57$01092c70$45749a8d@ajp166> From: Pete Turnbull >Which leads me to think about a tangentially-related problem -- I recall >that some FDCs insist upon the index mark at the start of the track, and >some don't, but I can't remember which FDCs do/don't (I think WD 37C65 etc >need it but NatSemi DP8473 and WD 1770/1772 don't care). They all do save for the WD. However without index you may have other problems. >Also, I recall that some FDCs are more likely to work with 8" drives than >others, and some are more likely to work at single density than others (at WD had a few that were speed limited but all the 765 and later based on that core cared less what siase save for many PC implmentations didn't provide the adaquately fast clocks needed to run 8". that was not a chip problem but was a board (controller) problem. >least, some PC ISA controllers are unlikely to work at SD because the >relevant components are not there). I want to set up a PC to use with 8" Some yes, other would easily do 8" single but not double or the reverse case. The older 765 PC controller designs were often PC centric, minimalist and limited. The 37C65 if it had the 9.6 and 16mhz external clocks would do all modes if programmed properly. >drives, including single density, mostly with 22DISK. I have a choice of >386/486/Pentium motherboards, and a selection of ISA controllers, with an >assortment of 765, 8272, 37C65, and 8473 FDCs (I haven't checked, but I'm >pretty sure I have at least one of each). What is most likely to work? I'd go with the 37C65 board IF it has the clock logic for both 9.6 mhz (1.2mb) and 16 mhz (all other 3.5, 5.25 and 8 inch formats). FYI the 8272 is a 765 so no difference at all. The 8743 is a 765 core with some of the external logic the older 765 didnt contain on the same silicon. SMC did some 765 core with clock and data sep like WD37c65. In the end you'll find most PC controllers do not support the full 8" singnal set, missing are TG43, ready/fault and a few other lesser ones. Allison From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat May 12 21:48:50 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: Apple Lisa 2 conversion back to Lisa 1 In-Reply-To: <3AFDE700.8080902@sympatico.ca> References: <3AFDE700.8080902@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: >I have several Lisa 2's and a pair of twiggy floppies plus a old >Lisa CPU board with >Lisa 1 ROM's on it. When boot system get 2 drive icon. Is it >possible to convert the Lisa 2's >back to Lisa 1 with this CPU board and the two twiggy drives?. Does >anybody have doc's for the twiggy drives. I am lucking enough to >have a new floppy for them. Do your Lisa 2's have the external parallel port and dual drive cables internally? I have a few Lisa 2/5 spare parts if you want to contact me off list. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat May 12 21:55:52 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: Docs for DRV-11? Message-ID: <011c01c0db59$1b8ea780$45749a8d@ajp166> From: Richard Erlacher >I didn't know it was practical to use mass storage devices under VMS without >using the MSCP. Gee ... I didn't think I'd ever learn anything more about DEC MSCP was not the only mass storage interface. IT was most commonly used on smaller Qbus VAXen. The 780, 750, 730, MV2000, 3100s and many others didn't use it or didn't even provide for it. FYI: The grey wall provides the basic information and even examples for doing device drivers. The best example was some russian chap that did a PIO interface (simple) for a PDP-11 or Microvax (qbus). Even had drivers for both if memory is working. It was not the fastest way to go but cheap. >experience, though not DEC's fault. It's too bad the PC folks didn't think of a >way to hook an external device to the PC internals without direct access to the >bus the way this board does things. That allows you to aviod the "broken" I/O >device from making the system "broken" as well. I still have the doc's for that >I/O board around somewhere. ADAC and CSC to name a few make boards very similar to DRV11 some 8255 based, others Z80 PIO or TTL.. I've used several to hang custom IO on PCs without doing a bus interface. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat May 12 21:48:39 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: Power supply question Message-ID: <011b01c0db59$1b2cd870$45749a8d@ajp166> From: Ken Seefried >Forgive me if this is a silly question; it never got covered in my digital >electronics classes :-). > >Is a modern switching power supply a suitable replacement for an ancient >(and dead) linear power supply in a classic computer (PDP-11, FWIW)? First switch mode vs linear only covers HOW the regulation is obtained in a power supply unit. Most of the DEC PDP-11s had switch mode supplies especially the Qbus PDP-11s though many of the later Unibus systems did as well. The problem using a PC supply is that DEC supplies provide DCok and BeventL (line time clock) to name a few signals plus the +12 and -12 power may exceed most PC PSUs. the later is something for a case by case study. I have used a 200W PC supply (it was handy) to run a 12 slot H9281-AC with 10 cards in it. I had to supply DCok and Bevent-L, it was otherwise ok. Allison From rdd at smart.net Sat May 12 22:06:37 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: <3AFDCF29.233031D0@greenbelt.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 May 2001, Eric Chomko wrote: > Iggy Drougge wrote: > > Of course they would be highly valued, but my point is not whether > > they are, but whether they should. I see Iggy's point; he's asking, as I'm wondering, what logical difference does it make whether or not some famous artist actually touched something. Furthermore, I've seen much more attractive paintings than the Mona Lisa sell for much less than the Mona Lisa would sell for. Giving this additional thought, ss not the Mona Lisa a rather unattractive painting of a woman who isn't particularly attractive? Now, to get back on topic, let's apply this to computers. For example, why should an Apple I or an Altair sell for more than. let's say, a Sun 4/330? That makes no sense; the Apple I is much slower and has fewer graphics capabilities, etc. > Whether something or anything "should" WRT the world is basically a "why" > question. > A wise man once told me that the answer to every "why" question is "because." Why did he say that? Was it because the poor chap had a limited vocabulary? > > Are copies less tangible? > > No, more tangible, and that is the point! When speaking of rarity and value > one deals with supply and demand. The demand for copies of originals can > always met, therefore the price is low. The demand for a unique item will > drive the price of the item up as long as more than one person wants it. ...or because there are enough saps out there willing to pay an overinflated price. :-) -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From donm at cts.com Sat May 12 23:07:20 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: FDCs -- was Re: TELEDISK Problem In-Reply-To: <10105130154.ZM12921@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 May 2001, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On May 12, 14:14, ajp166 wrote: > > > What your havent tried is differnt controllers and different drives. > > > > I found an old 486 or 386 machine to be less troublesome and also > > has fewer preconceived notions of the world. Also I ran dos not > > windows(any version)! > > > > I was able to make Venix disks for my Pro many years ago and also > > OS278 (also rx50). What I had to do however was to play with the > > jumpers on a TEAC FD55GFV (the verseion with many jumpers) > > to lock out the 1.2mb mode. > > Which leads me to think about a tangentially-related problem -- I recall > that some FDCs insist upon the index mark at the start of the track, and > some don't, but I can't remember which FDCs do/don't (I think WD 37C65 etc > need it but NatSemi DP8473 and WD 1770/1772 don't care). > > Also, I recall that some FDCs are more likely to work with 8" drives than > others, and some are more likely to work at single density than others (at > least, some PC ISA controllers are unlikely to work at SD because the > relevant components are not there). I want to set up a PC to use with 8" > drives, including single density, mostly with 22DISK. I have a choice of > 386/486/Pentium motherboards, and a selection of ISA controllers, with an > assortment of 765, 8272, 37C65, and 8473 FDCs (I haven't checked, but I'm > pretty sure I have at least one of each). What is most likely to work? The 37C65 and 8473 chips are to be preferred, Pete. - don > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > From foo at siconic.com Sat May 12 23:24:29 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: <1823.532T800T11254053optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 12 May 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > >Silly argument, but I'll humor you by saying they would at least be highly > >collectable (and highly valued), as they were used to paint the Mona Lisa. > >Are you starting to see the connection here? > > Of course they would be highly valued, but my point is not whether they are, > but whether they should. You say "of course they would be highly valued" then as whether they should. That's for you to decide. I would highly value them. > >Abstractly, yes. The original is a tangible product of the man, hence > >it's value relative to copies. > > Are copies less tangible? No, but they don't offer a direct connection to Da Vinci. I would prefer something Da Vinci himself had a hand in creating rather than some 3rd rate art school schlub, or even a 1st rate renowned painter (unless I happen to be fond of the 3rd rate schlub or the 1st rate painter). Again, the connection is with the creator. And you've been arguing this for so long now that you've forgotten that we are not judging the work in and of itself. The work stands alone for judgement whether it be an old computer or a painting. But the original was a direct part of someone's life, and in that regard it is "tangible", whereas a new reproduction or copy is not (not tangible to anyone elses life besides now your own). > >> But of course it can! It's built from the same plans and offers the > >> same functionality. > > >And it has all the historical significance that everything "Made in > >Taiwan" has. Yes, of course! > > It doesn't matter whether it's built in Taiwan or the Czech republic > as long as it's according to the plans. And if all you're after is functionality then your point is well taken. However, if you're after historical context then the original is obviously preferred. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 13 00:32:23 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: DRV11-WA info In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010512110109.02a76630@208.226.86.10> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010511213225.0238a380@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: >The ones at which appears down at the moment. I think the site is still pretty hosed after the change to Encompass. If you've got an Eisner account and are familiar with DEC NOTES, I'd recommend looking there for whatever info you're after. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From foo at siconic.com Sat May 12 23:35:02 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 12 May 2001, R. D. Davis wrote: > On Sat, 12 May 2001, Eric Chomko wrote: > > Iggy Drougge wrote: > > > > Of course they would be highly valued, but my point is not whether > > > they are, but whether they should. > > I see Iggy's point; he's asking, as I'm wondering, what logical > difference does it make whether or not some famous artist actually > touched something. Furthermore, I've seen much more attractive > paintings than the Mona Lisa sell for much less than the Mona Lisa > would sell for. Well, to some people it's important. And going with Eric Chomko's theme, "Why? Because!" :) And the reason the Mona Lisa is so highly valued is, in part, because Da Vinci, one of the most celebrated inventors/scientists/artists/etc in history, painted it. > Giving this additional thought, ss not the Mona Lisa a rather > unattractive painting of a woman who isn't particularly attractive? To each his own, of course. Art appreciation is entirely subjective. It's the same with old computers. Someone who actually used an Altair back when it came out may consider it junk. > Now, to get back on topic, let's apply this to computers. For > example, why should an Apple I or an Altair sell for more than. let's > say, a Sun 4/330? That makes no sense; the Apple I is much slower and > has fewer graphics capabilities, etc. Good question, but I think it has to do with the fact that a) there were at most 200 made, b) they were hand-made by Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs, two of the most celebrated figures in computer history. c) it was a pretty cool computer for its day. This is the historical point of view. Now for the practical point of view, of course it's nothing to be compared to the Sun 4/330. It can't do all the nifty things the Sun 4/330 can do, at least not as fast, or with as high resolution graphics, or with as much memory, or with as much hard drive space, etc. (It might possibly be made to do it, but that's niether here nor there :) So what's more important to you? Historical interest or practical interest? To each his own. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Sun May 13 00:44:39 2001 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: DRV11-WA info Message-ID: BAR register? What does the qbus have to do with a Browning Automatic Rifle??? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun May 13 02:23:13 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: DRV11-WA info In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010513002011.02254b90@208.226.86.10> :-) Bus Address Register (puts this address on the Bus) and yes there are two more bits in the CSR for XAD16 and XAD17 to tell it the upper two bits of the address (16 + 2 = 18) but no word on if there are four more bits squirrelled around somewhere to do it right for the 22 bit back planes. I can live with the 18 bit restriction on the VAX since the VAX will just create a copy buffer in a chunk of memory mapped into Q-bus space and then copy things in and out of it. Another idea I had was to hook up perhaps some M7941s to some solenoids, light bulbs, etc and have the local high school kids see what sort of effects they can create. --Chuck At 11:44 PM 5/12/01 -0600, you wrote: >BAR register? What does the qbus have to do with a Browning Automatic Rifle??? >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun May 13 09:01:10 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: DRV11-WA info Message-ID: <014801c0dbb5$66a72f10$45749a8d@ajp166> From: Chuck McManis >Bus Address Register (puts this address on the Bus) and yes there are two >more bits in the CSR for XAD16 and XAD17 to tell it the upper two bits of >the address (16 + 2 = 18) but no word on if there are four more bits >squirrelled around somewhere to do it right for the 22 bit back planes. I Nope only 18bit. Thats an old card. >Another idea I had was to hook up perhaps some M7941s to some solenoids, >light bulbs, etc and have the local high school kids see what sort of >effects they can create. Yes, good appication. or a matrix of leds and switches for a simple game. Allison From rdd at smart.net Sun May 13 09:42:36 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 12 May 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > On Sat, 12 May 2001, Eric Chomko wrote: > > Well, to some people it's important. And going with Eric Chomko's theme, > "Why? Because!" :) That makes sense. :-) > And the reason the Mona Lisa is so highly valued is, in part, because Da > Vinci, one of the most celebrated inventors/scientists/artists/etc in > history, painted it. > > > Giving this additional thought, ss not the Mona Lisa a rather > > unattractive painting of a woman who isn't particularly attractive? > > To each his own, of course. Art appreciation is entirely subjective. It's Precisely. One man's treasure is a another man's junk, etc., and different people have different ideas of beauty, worth, etc. Hence, what I said previously was, basically, non-sensical in that I really can't say that the Mona Lisa is unattractive; it may be to me, but not to others, and what I find attractive, others may not. I was playing a little bit of devil's advocate. > the same with old computers. Someone who actually used an Altair back > when it came out may consider it junk. Yes, just like someone who used one and had, for whatever reason, fond memories of using it, or who had been given one as a gift and lost it, would pay much more for one. > Good question, but I think it has to do with the fact that a) there were > at most 200 made, b) they were hand-made by Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs, > two of the most celebrated figures in computer history. c) it was a > pretty cool computer for its day. This is the historical point of view. I see your point, although historical/popularity reasons alone wouldn't maye me want something more or be willing to pay more for it. > So what's more important to you? Historical interest or practical > interest? To each his own. Practical or personal interest. However, as you said, to each his own. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From foo at siconic.com Sun May 13 10:40:00 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On Message-ID: On 12 May 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > >Silly argument, but I'll humor you by saying they would at least be highly > >collectable (and highly valued), as they were used to paint the Mona Lisa. > >Are you starting to see the connection here? > > Of course they would be highly valued, but my point is not whether they are, > but whether they should. You say "of course they would be highly valued" then as whether they should. That's for you to decide. I would highly value them. > >Abstractly, yes. The original is a tangible product of the man, hence > >it's value relative to copies. > > Are copies less tangible? No, but they don't offer a direct connection to Da Vinci. I would prefer something Da Vinci himself had a hand in creating rather than some 3rd rate art school schlub, or even a 1st rate renowned painter (unless I happen to be fond of the 3rd rate schlub or the 1st rate painter). Again, the connection is with the creator. And you've been arguing this for so long now that you've forgotten that we are not judging the work in and of itself. The work stands alone for judgement whether it be an old computer or a painting. But the original was a direct part of someone's life, and in that regard it is "tangible", whereas a new reproduction or copy is not (not tangible to anyone elses life besides now your own). > >> But of course it can! It's built from the same plans and offers the > >> same functionality. > > >And it has all the historical significance that everything "Made in > >Taiwan" has. Yes, of course! > > It doesn't matter whether it's built in Taiwan or the Czech republic > as long as it's according to the plans. And if all you're after is functionality then your point is well taken. However, if you're after historical context then the original is obviously preferred. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sun May 13 11:59:15 2001 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: The XeroX-Files (can anyone ID these machines?) Message-ID: <20010513.115942.-3432509.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> These things are purple, and kinda small: http://home.kscable.com/kh6jjn/May13$05.jpg http://home.kscable.com/kh6jjn/May13$06.jpg My first thought wa that this was a DANDELION, but I'm not so sure . . . http://home.kscable.com/kh6jjn/May13$10.jpg ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From schoedel at kw.igs.net Sun May 13 13:01:00 2001 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: The XeroX-Files (can anyone ID these machines?) In-Reply-To: <20010513.115942.-3432509.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> References: <20010513.115942.-3432509.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <200105131803.f4DI3gt13008@diamond.archelon.com> >These things are purple, and kinda small: > >http://home.kscable.com/kh6jjn/May13$05.jpg >http://home.kscable.com/kh6jjn/May13$06.jpg 6085 (running Viewpoint, son of Star) or 1185 / 1186 (Lisp) or ...? >My first thought wa that this was a DANDELION, but I'm not so sure . . . > >http://home.kscable.com/kh6jjn/May13$10.jpg Yes, numbered 8010 (running Star) or 1108 / 1109 (Lisp) or ...? Worth getting, if that's in question, though you'll probably need their keyboard, mouse & monitor to make use of them. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 13 12:25:14 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: <3AFDCF29.233031D0@greenbelt.com> from "Eric Chomko" at May 12, 1 08:02:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 616 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010513/96ce987b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 13 12:33:46 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: FDCs -- was Re: TELEDISK Problem In-Reply-To: <10105130154.ZM12921@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at May 13, 1 00:54:55 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2296 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010513/21ba0f05/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 13 12:39:16 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: Power supply question In-Reply-To: <3AFDE408.FE682A95@home.com> from "ip500" at May 12, 1 09:31:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1898 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010513/ce2b0e7c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 13 12:54:02 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: Power supply question In-Reply-To: <011b01c0db59$1b2cd870$45749a8d@ajp166> from "ajp166" at May 12, 1 10:48:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 741 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010513/dc50ce7a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 13 12:57:57 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: DRV11-WA info In-Reply-To: from "Will Jennings" at May 12, 1 11:44:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 350 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010513/daa04f35/attachment.ksh From hsappleton at sprintmail.com Sun May 13 13:40:22 2001 From: hsappleton at sprintmail.com (Headley Sappleton) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: The XeroX-Files (can anyone ID these machines?) References: <20010513.115942.-3432509.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> <200105131803.f4DI3gt13008@diamond.archelon.com> Message-ID: <004401c0dbdc$2bfd9120$b4d5f6d1@headleys> These looks like a Xerox workstations I used to own. They usually work if you can find the monitor. Bad news is the monitor is the quickest part to die and finding one is a million to one odds. I had one and waited a year for a monitor and gave up and pulled the thing apart and dumped it! - ran out of space in my apartment. There is very little resource on the web for it as I can remember quite well. Headley ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Schoedel To: Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2001 2:01 PM Subject: Re: The XeroX-Files (can anyone ID these machines?) > >These things are purple, and kinda small: > > > >http://home.kscable.com/kh6jjn/May13$05.jpg > >http://home.kscable.com/kh6jjn/May13$06.jpg > > 6085 (running Viewpoint, son of Star) or 1185 / 1186 (Lisp) or ...? > > >My first thought wa that this was a DANDELION, but I'm not so sure . . . > > > >http://home.kscable.com/kh6jjn/May13$10.jpg > > Yes, numbered 8010 (running Star) or 1108 / 1109 (Lisp) or ...? > > Worth getting, if that's in question, though you'll probably need > their keyboard, mouse & monitor to make use of them. From Innfogra at aol.com Sun May 13 14:17:40 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: The XeroX-Files (can anyone ID these machines?) Message-ID: The purple is a Xerox 6085 and the white one is a 8010. Nice machines. You need the matching monitor and keyboard. The 6085 monitor has two cables on it and a power cord. This along with the Xerox makes them easy to identify. You need the monitor and keyboard to make either the 6085s and 8010s to work. The 8010 keyboard is fat and the 6085 is thin and has a 6 or 8 pin RJ type connector. IIRC both have either 8 or 10 large function keys at the top. Both systems are worth saving. I think I have a set of Viewpoint 2 for the 6085s (5 1/4" disks) in storage. I keep hoping I will find another myself. Paxton Portland, OR -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010513/cbab4f14/attachment.html From allain at panix.com Sun May 13 14:26:08 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: The XeroX-Files (can anyone ID these machines?) References: <20010513.115942.-3432509.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> <200105131803.f4DI3gt13008@diamond.archelon.com> <004401c0dbdc$2bfd9120$b4d5f6d1@headleys> Message-ID: <002901c0dbe2$8fe1b6c0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Headley said: > Bad news is the monitor is the quickest part to > die and finding one is a million to one odds. Here's to the day when someone makes a super monitor that can synch up to anything. There may even be one out there now. comments? There are things to do scan conversion to NTSC,etc. video that come close, but alas at a loss in resolution, they just feed in to a 640x480 display. John A. From chomko at greenbelt.com Sun May 13 14:43:03 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On References: Message-ID: <3AFEE3C7.E0C808A6@greenbelt.com> "R. D. Davis" wrote: > On Sat, 12 May 2001, Eric Chomko wrote: > > Iggy Drougge wrote: > > > > Of course they would be highly valued, but my point is not whether > > > they are, but whether they should. > > I see Iggy's point; he's asking, as I'm wondering, what logical > difference does it make whether or not some famous artist actually > touched something. Furthermore, I've seen much more attractive > paintings than the Mona Lisa sell for much less than the Mona Lisa > would sell for. > But none of them have the value of the Mona Lisa. Your judging criteria lacks a certain aspect. I won't argue what is more beautiful or what isn't. What I will argue is that an original is worth way more than a replica despite what you may think of it. > > Giving this additional thought, ss not the Mona Lisa a rather > unattractive painting of a woman who isn't particularly attractive? > Perhaps? And your point? > > Now, to get back on topic, let's apply this to computers. For > example, why should an Apple I or an Altair sell for more than. let's > say, a Sun 4/330? That makes no sense; the Apple I is much slower and > has fewer graphics capabilities, etc. > 660 made of the Apple I and millions of Suns made; supply and demand. > > > Whether something or anything "should" WRT the world is basically a "why" > > question. > > A wise man once told me that the answer to every "why" question is "because." > > Why did he say that? Was it because the poor chap had a limited > vocabulary? > Not at all. To question why of something that is out of your control is useless, other than maybe from a purely philiosphical point-of-view. Why is the grass green and the sky blue, and not the other way around? Simply "because!" The point is that we are all born into a context of this world that is based upon reality as it is. Did you pick your parents, your family name, the country you were born in, who was running the country, the traditions, etc.? No, no...,no, and no. Like it or not, it IS. Why? Because! > > > > Are copies less tangible? > > > > No, more tangible, and that is the point! When speaking of rarity and value > > one deals with supply and demand. The demand for copies of originals can > > always met, therefore the price is low. The demand for a unique item will > > drive the price of the item up as long as more than one person wants it. > > ...or because there are enough saps out there willing to pay an > overinflated price. :-) > Call it what you will. Maybe those saps know something you don't or they are lunatics? Either way it does not change supply/demand and the nature of a market. Eric > > -- > Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: > All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & > rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From foo at siconic.com Sun May 13 14:09:31 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: The XeroX-Files (can anyone ID these machines?) In-Reply-To: <20010513.115942.-3432509.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 May 2001 jeff.kaneko@juno.com wrote: > These things are purple, and kinda small: > > http://home.kscable.com/kh6jjn/May13$05.jpg > > http://home.kscable.com/kh6jjn/May13$06.jpg The increasingly ubiquitous Xerox 6085 "Daybreak". Being used as a pallet stand in an exposed outdoor environment :( Would be nice to have these rescued before they are reduced to rust buckets. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Sun May 13 14:10:35 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: The XeroX-Files (can anyone ID these machines?) In-Reply-To: <200105131803.f4DI3gt13008@diamond.archelon.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 May 2001, Kevin Schoedel wrote: > >My first thought wa that this was a DANDELION, but I'm not so sure . . . > > > >http://home.kscable.com/kh6jjn/May13$10.jpg > > Yes, numbered 8010 (running Star) or 1108 / 1109 (Lisp) or ...? > > Worth getting, if that's in question, though you'll probably need > their keyboard, mouse & monitor to make use of them. True, but all the same, GET IT!!! First commercial GUI-based computer. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Sun May 13 14:13:57 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: <3AFEE3C7.E0C808A6@greenbelt.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 May 2001, Eric Chomko wrote: > 660 made of the Apple I and millions of Suns made; supply and demand. $660 + $6 ($666) was the selling price. 200 was the number made ;) > The point is that we are all born into a context of this world that is > based upon reality as it is. Did you pick your parents, your family > name, the country you were born in, who was running the country, the > traditions, etc.? No, no...,no, and no. Like it or not, it IS. Why? > Because! Hey, this makes life so much more simple. Anytime someone asks me a "why" question, I'm just going to answer "Because!" and go on with my day. Brilliant! :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 13 15:43:53 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: The XeroX-Files (can anyone ID these machines?) In-Reply-To: <004401c0dbdc$2bfd9120$b4d5f6d1@headleys> from "Headley Sappleton" at May 13, 1 02:40:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1202 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010513/7ae4440a/attachment.ksh From donm at cts.com Sun May 13 16:38:05 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: DRV11-WA info In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 13 May 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > BAR register? What does the qbus have to do with a Browning Automatic > > Rifle??? > > Bus Adress Register. On the Unibus and Q-bus, peripherals that do DMA > have their own address register (and word count register, etc). There is > no central DMA controller like on a PC. > > Is it time to mention the Failed UniBus Address Register again? :-) > > -tony I would say that it is definitely Failed Address Register Time. 8-} - don From optimus at canit.se Sun May 13 06:41:05 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:18 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: <3AFDCF29.233031D0@greenbelt.com> Message-ID: <2553.533T250T7614375optimus@canit.se> Eric Chomko skrev: >Pardon me for jumping in... By all means. >Iggy Drougge wrote: >> Sellam Ismail skrev: >> >> >On 12 May 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> >> >> Da Vinci's greatness as an artist stemmed IOW from his ability to >> >> produce great works of art. A work of art is a work of art even if >> >> mass-produced, the last century has taught us as much. >> >> >Abstractly, yes. The original is a tangible product of the man, hence >> >it's value relative to copies. >> >> Are copies less tangible? >No, more tangible, and that is the point! When speaking of rarity and value >one deals with supply and demand. The demand for copies of originals can >always met, therefore the price is low. The demand for a unique item will >drive the price of the item up as long as more than one person wants it. My point is that Mona Lisa isn't rare since there are reproductions. Anyone who'd pay millions more for the "original" is an utter fool. >Why is it like that? Because! >> >> But then that is metaphysics, and should we really invest that much >> >> money into something which essentially would be a golden calf? >> >> >A golden calf, as in idol worshipping? Is this becoming religious? I >> >hope not. Things connect us to the past. Perhaps you keep a memento that >> >reminds you of a dead relative, for example? Or maybe you're an >> >emotionless bastard and you don't, in which case you can't understand my >> >point? >> >> I'd go for the second. Bastards don't have emotional ties to their >> relatives. >> =) >> >> >> But of course it can! It's built from the same plans and offers the >> >> same functionality. >> >> >And it has all the historical significance that everything "Made in >> >Taiwan" has. Yes, of course! >> >> It doesn't matter whether it's built in Taiwan or the Czech republic as >> long as it's according to the plans. >That's not exactly correct when trying to determine the value of something. >By your own arguement, no one here should collect an old computer based upon >functionality, as I can buy a new one than can out perform the old ones. >Therefore, >no one should bother with older ones regardless of model or type. In what way can any computer outperform another? Every computer is unique in its own sense, isn't that why we collect several? We don't use computers to run benchmarks. At least not most of the time. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "Real life is full of idiots, and tons of ads. I don't see how IRC is any different, other than a lot more people want to have sex with you." -- m3000 From optimus at canit.se Sun May 13 06:50:34 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:19 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2601.533T1700T7704993optimus@canit.se> Sellam Ismail skrev: >On 12 May 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> >Silly argument, but I'll humor you by saying they would at least be highly >> >collectable (and highly valued), as they were used to paint the Mona Lisa. >> >Are you starting to see the connection here? >> >> Of course they would be highly valued, but my point is not whether they >> are, but whether they should. >You say "of course they would be highly valued" then as whether they >should. That's for you to decide. I would highly value them. But they're really just old utensils. Da Vinci's sweat and saliva most likely was no more brilliant than that of any other renaissance Italaian. >> >Abstractly, yes. The original is a tangible product of the man, hence >> >it's value relative to copies. >> >> Are copies less tangible? >No, but they don't offer a direct connection to Da Vinci. I would prefer >something Da Vinci himself had a hand in creating rather than some 3rd >rate art school schlub, or even a 1st rate renowned painter (unless I >happen to be fond of the 3rd rate schlub or the 1st rate painter). >Again, the connection is with the creator. And you've been arguing this >for so long now that you've forgotten that we are not judging the work in >and of itself. The work stands alone for judgement whether it be an old >computer or a painting. But the original was a direct part of someone's >life, and in that regard it is "tangible", whereas a new reproduction or >copy is not (not tangible to anyone elses life besides now your own). And I'll argue that the reproduction is equal in every sense. Why would the copy be less tangible to anyone else than the original? Da Vinci painted the original Mona Lisa. Since then, innumerable reproductions have been made, but they're all Mona Lisas. >> >> But of course it can! It's built from the same plans and offers the >> >> same functionality. >> >> >And it has all the historical significance that everything "Made in >> >Taiwan" has. Yes, of course! >> >> It doesn't matter whether it's built in Taiwan or the Czech republic >> as long as it's according to the plans. >And if all you're after is functionality then your point is well taken. >However, if you're after historical context then the original is obviously >preferred. Why? Does historical context lie in the dust and grease? Tacitus is no less Tacitus whether printed in the 90s AD, the 1920s or last year. It still remains his work. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "I believe OS/2 is destined to be the most important operating system, and possibly program, of all time..." Bill Gates 1988 From optimus at canit.se Sun May 13 18:27:28 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:19 2005 Subject: The XeroX-Files (can anyone ID these machines?) In-Reply-To: <002901c0dbe2$8fe1b6c0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <771.534T1400T274541optimus@canit.se> John Allain skrev: >Headley said: >> Bad news is the monitor is the quickest part to >> die and finding one is a million to one odds. >Here's to the day when someone makes a super monitor >that can synch up to anything. There may even be one out >there now. comments? There are things to do scan >conversion to NTSC,etc. video that come close, but alas at >a loss in resolution, they just feed in to a 640x480 display. It's called the NEC Multisync 3D. =) Been out for ten years. OTOH, I suppose that a Xerox might use ECL, wheras the NEC will only handle TTL and analogue. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Remember: - On the Amiga, you can make a way. - On Linux, there is a way, you just don't know it. - On Windows, there is no way and you know it. Aaron Digulla From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun May 13 17:51:12 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:19 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: <2553.533T250T7614375optimus@canit.se> References: <2553.533T250T7614375optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: >My point is that Mona Lisa isn't rare since there are reproductions. Anyone >who'd pay millions more for the "original" is an utter fool. The 'actual' Mon Lisa is rare because there is only one of them. Images of the painting are not rare and these reproductions, regardless of how well done, lack all the various things that make it a DaVinci, such as the way he did the brushstrokes. In much the same way a reproduction of a computer system will fall short of the original since there are likely miniscule things that were left out that were in the original. Sometimes though it is these minor things that mean the difference. If one wants to look at the Mona Lisa as a whole, any image or reproduction of it will suffice. If one wants to actually study how DaVinci painted and what made his style unique then you must seek out an original. In the end, it all boils down to what level one looks at and appreciates the item as to how important the vintage or original is. For most people, a copy is all well and good but there are those whose appreciation goes deepter, for reasons no less valid. One could likely replicate early designs of Steve Wozniak without too much trouble but would that same replica convey his sense of style in the board layout, unless it was just an outright copy? Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Sun May 13 18:47:33 2001 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:19 2005 Subject: DRV11-WA info Message-ID: Hey I just felt compelled to make a joke.. and keep in mind it was like 1AM my time... Is there a SNAFU register as well? Just wondering... I need to have SEX with all my Interdata's/Perkin-Elmer's... heh, thats the "System Excerciser" _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From dittman at dittman.net Sun May 13 18:56:42 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:19 2005 Subject: P/OS Reinstallation Message-ID: <200105132356.f4DNugQ19393@narnia.int.dittman.net> I downloaded the DECUS P/OS distribution. I did a FULL reinstallation but I can't remember the proper way to install the extra items from the rest of the floppies (I'm talking about the 21 floppies in the 177 set). I tried to install a couple of them by using the install option from Environmental Services but I get an error that some of the files must be installed system-wide and to contact the system administrator. I've set the default account to be SYSTEM but that didn't help. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 13 19:15:02 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:19 2005 Subject: DRV11-WA info References: Message-ID: <001b01c0dc0a$ebaad900$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yes, but have you gotten any of them running yet? Trying to exercise computers with no power connection is not too unlike necrophilia. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Will Jennings" To: Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2001 5:47 PM Subject: Re: DRV11-WA info > Hey I just felt compelled to make a joke.. and keep in mind it was like 1AM > my time... Is there a SNAFU register as well? Just wondering... I need to > have SEX with all my Interdata's/Perkin-Elmer's... heh, thats the "System > Excerciser" > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun May 13 19:23:47 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:19 2005 Subject: FDCs -- was Re: TELEDISK Problem Message-ID: <01a401c0dc0c$25d99a70$45749a8d@ajp166> From: Tony Duell >> some don't, but I can't remember which FDCs do/don't (I think WD 37C65 etc >> need it but NatSemi DP8473 and WD 1770/1772 don't care). > >I seem to remember a problem something like : 765s and related >controllers (by practical experimentm, the 37C65 is one of these) will >miss a sector header (and thus be unable to read the sector) if it comes >too soon after the index pulse. The WD177x and 179x, etc don't seem to care. Yes, that is a spec'ed item delay after index. The cheap fix, delay index about 95% of one revolution, fakes it into thinking it occured earlier. >The 765 and the 8272 are essentially the same chip. They use an external No the ARE the same chip, at one point NEC made them for Intel. >data separator circuit, and in most PC disk controllers this is >configured for DD operation only. If there's the well-known 9216 8 pin data >separator chip, you might be able to get that to run in single-density >mode (Inverting the MFM select output of the 8272 and feeding it to pin 5 >(cut the track that grounds this pin of course) of the 9216 often works >for _reading_. Writing involves modifying the write precompensation circuit. Depends on the precomp needed. for single density it's fairly lax, for DD that might require tweeking or not. >If the data separator is several smaller chips (like the original IBM FDC >card), it's a lot more work. If you have the drawings, it may be easier. Many more parameters are alterable that way. >I think the 37C65 should work in single density mode, but it's a long >time since I read the datasheet. It will do single and double 8", unless the board compromized and used a half speed clock. >And my experience of other disk controller chips (UMC, etc) is that while >they may be documented as working in SD mode, they don't. At least not >reliably. It's a setup and config issue. Allison From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Sun May 13 19:21:11 2001 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:19 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On Message-ID: Well if the existence of reproductions means the Mona Lisa isn't rare, then you miss the whole point... Along the lines of what Jeff said, I would add that any moron can make a reproduction of the Mona Lisa, but could you create it, from scratch, with actual paint/canvas/etc., use the same style as Da Vinci, and end up with the same result? I highly doubt it. Now you may be an extremely accomplished painter or something, I don't mean to assume you've never painted or anything, but I have personal experience with what it is like to try to paint in the same style as one the masters, and let me tell you, it is *very* difficult.. I tried to paint like Monet, and I really didn't come very close to his style at all. However, I did gain a new appreciation for the level of skill he must have had in order to paint in such a way. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Sun May 13 19:32:36 2001 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:19 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On Message-ID: Another good fact to add to the Apple I vs. Sun analogy is the fact that Apple is credited with pioneering the desktop/home/personal computer market (mass market that is), while Sun didn't invent the workstation (though they'd like you to think so). For what it's worth, Apollo invented the workstation, though Sun was around fairly soon afterwards.. What irks me is that I read an interview with some Sun guy about the Sun Blade and they claimed they invented the workstation, which is untrue.. ugh. The Apple I also, as was stated, had a very small production as well, and it was the very first product of a company that is still around and very famous, though I'll exclude any thoughts I might have about their hardware... Along those lines, think what a PDP-1 would be worth, with a production of 50 or so, and being A. DEC's first computer system, and B. the machine upon which Spacewar was created.. It is irrelevant if you like or dislike DEC (or Apple), you still can't deny they have made a lasting mark upon the computer industry, unless you like to make yourself look at least somewhat clueless... Just like Da Vinci's ideas, though not so much his paintings, have had a profound influence on Western civilization... _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1366.monmouth.com Sun May 13 19:44:34 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1366.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:19 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: from Will Jennings at "May 13, 2001 06:32:36 pm" Message-ID: <200105140044.f4E0iY436300@bg-tc-ppp1366.monmouth.com> > Another good fact to add to the Apple I vs. Sun analogy is the fact that > Apple is credited with pioneering the desktop/home/personal computer market > (mass market that is), while Sun didn't invent the workstation (though > they'd like you to think so). For what it's worth, Apollo invented the > workstation, though Sun was around fairly soon afterwards.. Personally, I think DEC pretty much invented the workstation... Actually GT40's were pretty much early cad stations for pc cad (Racal-Redac) had some pretty good software on them. Wasn't the PDP1 pretty much an engineering workstation with Vector (rather than raster) based CRT. Kind of a cross between an O'scope and a computer. Apollo and Sun were pretty much an alternative to the higher priced Vaxes with add-on graphics like the VSV11 unit. Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From allain at panix.com Sun May 13 19:51:29 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:19 2005 Subject: The XeroX-Files (can anyone ID these machines?) References: <771.534T1400T274541optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <002c01c0dc10$2048c000$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > It's called the NEC Multisync 3D. =) The thing in front of my face right now is a NEC Multisync 3FGe. Any good? John A. From marvin at rain.org Sun May 13 20:44:54 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:19 2005 Subject: Single Board Computer References: <771.534T1400T274541optimus@canit.se> <002c01c0dc10$2048c000$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <3AFF3896.D38655F5@rain.org> I just received email from a friend of mine that might interest some of you here. ********************** I've just added a single board computer to my website, which might interest some of you folks... It uses a MicroMint 80C52, which has a "built-in" 8K BASIC interpeter. The SBC has an RS232 port, 8K of RAM and 8K of EPROM. Ity also has an integral EPROM programmer, which can "save" the BASIC programs in EPROM. Once saved in EPROM, the computer can "coldboot" directly from the BASIC program, and run without human intervention.... ideal for situations where a computer must be quickly / easily programmed for a specific task. There is also room on the board for an 18 - pin PIC chip, with power, crystal and reset already wired up... The intention was to use a PIC for the I/O and the 80C52 for "number crunching"... The PIC can be used separately or with the 80C52... The PC board is made using ExpressPCB web service, so all the holes are plated-through, and the boards are very high quality... total cost to make one of these SBC's is about $70 - $80. ExpressPCB has a ( free) CAD program that was used to design the board, and the CAD file for the SBC is available on my website. Info can be found at : http://www.silcom.com/~pelican2/ From rcini at optonline.net Sun May 13 20:51:30 2001 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:19 2005 Subject: PS/2 Speech Adapter Message-ID: Hello, all: I picked up (for $5) a brand new PS/2 speech adapter. It's a long ISA card with an external speaker box. Oddly, there is no software included at all. Does anyone know how this thing was supposed to be used. It has a TI speech/DSP chip (not a GI or NS chip). Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun May 13 21:04:23 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:19 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On Message-ID: <01d901c0dc1a$a2acfc00$45749a8d@ajp166> From: Bill Pechter >Personally, I think DEC pretty much invented the workstation... >Actually GT40's were pretty much early cad stations for pc cad >(Racal-Redac) had some pretty good software on them. > >Wasn't the PDP1 pretty much an engineering workstation with Vector >(rather than raster) based CRT. Yep and most of the later machines also had similar display systems or better. >Apollo and Sun were pretty much an alternative to the higher >priced Vaxes with add-on graphics like the VSV11 unit. Untill DEC caught on then the workation wars were on. Allison From Demon02554 at aol.com Sun May 13 21:05:50 2001 From: Demon02554 at aol.com (Demon02554@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:19 2005 Subject: gimpy (not broken) PSU Message-ID: ok...this one is weird it is a standard PSU in a 486 Compaq that i just dug up outta my dads storage... it will start up only if i disconnect it from everything... when i connect it to the motherboard and only the motherboard then it will start for a few seconds, then die...and even if i disconnect everything from it after that it won't start back up... before i go through and test every connection does anyone have any suggestions as to what is wrong with this thing? thanks, Robert Cobbins From chomko at greenbelt.com Sun May 13 21:21:14 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:19 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On References: <200105140044.f4E0iY436300@bg-tc-ppp1366.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <3AFF411A.793D603F@greenbelt.com> Bill Pechter wrote: > > Another good fact to add to the Apple I vs. Sun analogy is the fact that > > Apple is credited with pioneering the desktop/home/personal computer market > > (mass market that is), while Sun didn't invent the workstation (though > > they'd like you to think so). For what it's worth, Apollo invented the > > workstation, though Sun was around fairly soon afterwards.. > > Personally, I think DEC pretty much invented the workstation... I don't know... Olsen, the CEO of DEC at the time, considered microcomputers as toys and not serious. The workstation came along and was serious even by his standards. If DEC did invent the workstation, then they sure as heck missed the boat on those units as well as one can conclude that the mini- computer segment of the computer marketplace went workstations. Sun very well may have picked where DEC left off. > > Actually GT40's were pretty much early cad stations for pc cad > (Racal-Redac) had some pretty good software on them. > > Wasn't the PDP1 pretty much an engineering workstation with Vector > (rather than raster) based CRT. > I would say that the term workstation postdated minicomputer, as what PDPs are. > > Kind of a cross between an O'scope and a computer. > > Apollo and Sun were pretty much an alternative to the higher > priced Vaxes with add-on graphics like the VSV11 unit. > Sun is still around. Did another company pick up Apollo? Eric > > Bill > --- > Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a > villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller > bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From vance at ikickass.org Sun May 13 21:22:24 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Vance Dereksen) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:19 2005 Subject: PS/2 Speech Adapter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You're sure this is ISA? Peace... Sridhar On Sun, 13 May 2001, Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > Hello, all: > > I picked up (for $5) a brand new PS/2 speech adapter. It's a long ISA card > with an external speaker box. Oddly, there is no software included at all. > > Does anyone know how this thing was supposed to be used. It has a TI > speech/DSP chip (not a GI or NS chip). > > Rich > > Rich Cini > Collector of classic computers > Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project > Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > /************************************************************/ > > From allain at panix.com Sun May 13 21:32:49 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:19 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On References: Message-ID: <023c01c0dc1e$2bd23560$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> To the thread that won't die: Some statistics: +ACI-On the Road+ACI-, HDD resident +ACQ- 0.0001 +ACI-On the Road+ACI-, on 1.4MB FDD 0.10 +ACI-On the Road+ACI-, 2000 edition 12.95 +ACI-On the Road+ACI-, 1957 edition 454.00 +ACI-On the Road+ACI-, Manuscript 1,500,000.00+ACoAKg- +ACoAKg- estimated sale price at Christies http://www.christies.com/events/may01/9652/overview.html This is kind of interesting because it is +ACo-not+ACo- just stapled typewritten pages. The author thought it would go faster if he taped all the pages together in a continuous roll before typing. By making that change he also created a work of art -- a roadway (when unreeled) out of paper. Special one of a kind idea. John A. Sortof looks like a printout +ADw-g+AD4- Hey, How about this roll of used Fax Paper? From chomko at greenbelt.com Sun May 13 21:36:01 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:19 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On References: Message-ID: <3AFF4491.35DD55A2@greenbelt.com> Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Sun, 13 May 2001, Eric Chomko wrote: > > > 660 made of the Apple I and millions of Suns made; supply and demand. > > $660 + $6 ($666) was the selling price. 200 was the number made ;) > I stand corrected! Thanks for the clarification. Do these things have pedigrees at this point? Some of them, anyway? > > > The point is that we are all born into a context of this world that is > > based upon reality as it is. Did you pick your parents, your family > > name, the country you were born in, who was running the country, the > > traditions, etc.? No, no...,no, and no. Like it or not, it IS. Why? > > Because! > > Hey, this makes life so much more simple. Anytime someone asks me a "why" > question, I'm just going to answer "Because!" and go on with my day. > Brilliant! :) > I'm glad you like it. I felt exactly the same way when I heard it. Certain things are not to ponder beyond a simple understanding of the context from which we came into this world. It also goes a long way in understand those things which we DO have control and acting upon them accordingly. I used to get bogged down with many things due to the why-nature of them. Not any longer. I accept things as they are and then take it from there. Also, the why/because philosophy goes a long way WRT to dealing with my six year old daughter who has more questions than I can answer. She has learned to ask ones that get a response beyond "because", and I think we both appreciate those more as well. Eric P.S. Working on getting to Boston in late July. The Red Sox ARE in town that weekend! > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From chomko at greenbelt.com Sun May 13 21:42:39 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:19 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On References: Message-ID: <3AFF461F.B4126D73@greenbelt.com> Tony Duell wrote: > [...] > > > By your own arguement, no one here should collect an old computer based upon > > functionality, as I can buy a new one than can out perform the old ones. > I believe that above quite was atrributed to me, so... > > If by 'function', you mean 'running programs', well, you find me a modern > computer that runs PERQ microcode, and that's as easy to maintain as my > old PERQ 2, and I'll get it. Because AFAIK no such machine exists > I'm really not familar with PERQ, but couldn't one emulate the microcode in a more modern machine and actually have it run faster? > > And if by 'function' you mean a box that gives ARD great pleasure in > figuring out how it works, how to repair it, and how to use it, well, I > am darn sure there's no modern machine that even comes close to being > 'functional' .. > Agreed. The point that the orginal poster stated was based upon a replica having the same functionality as the original, "so why bother with the original?" I'm more inclined with what you are saying. That despite "functionality" a replica lacks at least one desirable aspect that the original has, so if I want "IT", I want the original and not the replica. Eric > > -tony From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun May 13 21:42:23 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:19 2005 Subject: gimpy (not broken) PSU Message-ID: <000a01c0dc20$ef493370$45749a8d@ajp166> From: Demon02554@aol.com >ok...this one is weird it is a standard PSU in a 486 Compaq that i just dug up outta my dads storage... it will start up only if i disconnect it from everything... when i connect it to the motherboard and only the motherboard then it will start for a few seconds, then die...and even if i disconnect everything from it after that it won't start back up... before i go through and test every connection does anyone have any suggestions as to what is wrong with this thing? the PSU is dead or very dying. repair or replace. Allison From chomko at greenbelt.com Sun May 13 22:02:04 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:19 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On References: <2553.533T250T7614375optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3AFF4AAC.C0DC905E@greenbelt.com> Iggy Drougge wrote: > Eric Chomko skrev: > > >Pardon me for jumping in... > > By all means. > Thank you. > > >Iggy Drougge wrote: > > >> Sellam Ismail skrev: > >> > >> >On 12 May 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > >> > >> >> Da Vinci's greatness as an artist stemmed IOW from his ability to > >> >> produce great works of art. A work of art is a work of art even if > >> >> mass-produced, the last century has taught us as much. > >> > >> >Abstractly, yes. The original is a tangible product of the man, hence > >> >it's value relative to copies. > >> > >> Are copies less tangible? > > >No, more tangible, and that is the point! When speaking of rarity and value > >one deals with supply and demand. The demand for copies of originals can > >always met, therefore the price is low. The demand for a unique item will > >drive the price of the item up as long as more than one person wants it. > > My point is that Mona Lisa isn't rare since there are reproductions. Anyone > who'd pay millions more for the "original" is an utter fool. > There are many fools based upon your assessment. Did you know that Gates purchased a painting for $30million a few years ago? Is he an utter fool? This is not directly related to the arguement but is quite on-topic for the group and this particular thread. Okay, two points... Gates is worth what, $50billion? Half that? Maybe more or less? Let's use $30billion to make a point. Ratio $30million to $30billion is 1 to 1000. If someone has a net worth of $300K, then the 1 to 1000 ratio puts their expeniture at $300. Would you spend $300 for a "rare" computer (forget panitings for the moment)? Do you see the point? To Gates spending $30million is not unlike a $300 lay out for us poor slobs. Its obscene I know, but it is what it is. The worst part is that I'd be hard pressed to show I got $300K in personal wealth. :( The second point is, suppose an organization like a museum or foundation raise enough money to make a purchase like one for a rare painting, is that such a bad thing? They put it on display for the public to see. Is this a ship of fools in your book? > > >Why is it like that? Because! > > >> >> But then that is metaphysics, and should we really invest that much > >> >> money into something which essentially would be a golden calf? > >> > >> >A golden calf, as in idol worshipping? Is this becoming religious? I > >> >hope not. Things connect us to the past. Perhaps you keep a memento that > >> >reminds you of a dead relative, for example? Or maybe you're an > >> >emotionless bastard and you don't, in which case you can't understand my > >> >point? > >> > >> I'd go for the second. Bastards don't have emotional ties to their > >> relatives. > >> =) > >> > >> >> But of course it can! It's built from the same plans and offers the > >> >> same functionality. > >> > >> >And it has all the historical significance that everything "Made in > >> >Taiwan" has. Yes, of course! > >> > >> It doesn't matter whether it's built in Taiwan or the Czech republic as > >> long as it's according to the plans. > > >That's not exactly correct when trying to determine the value of something. > > >By your own arguement, no one here should collect an old computer based upon > >functionality, as I can buy a new one than can out perform the old ones. > >Therefore, > >no one should bother with older ones regardless of model or type. > > In what way can any computer outperform another? Every computer is unique in > its own sense, isn't that why we collect several? Agreed. So why would a replica of a painting be any different than the replica of a computer? > > We don't use computers to run benchmarks. At least not most of the time. > True, but I think I missed the point of that. Eric > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > "Real life is full of idiots, and tons of ads. I don't see how IRC is any > different, other than a lot more people want to have sex with you." > -- m3000 From chomko at greenbelt.com Sun May 13 22:04:27 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:19 2005 Subject: gimpy (not broken) PSU References: Message-ID: <3AFF4B3B.9072C9D5@greenbelt.com> Demon02554@aol.com wrote: > ok...this one is weird > it is a standard PSU in a 486 Compaq that i just dug up outta my dads > storage... > it will start up only if i disconnect it from everything... > when i connect it to the motherboard and only the motherboard then it will > start for a few seconds, then die...and even if i disconnect everything from > it after that it won't start back up... > before i go through and test every connection does anyone have any > suggestions as to what is wrong with this thing? > IIRC, Compaqs use proprietary power supplies, and to me that's a bad thing in the PC world. I can't help much beyond that, other than replacement will be a royal pain. Eric > > thanks, > Robert Cobbins From chomko at greenbelt.com Sun May 13 22:05:29 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:19 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On References: <01d901c0dc1a$a2acfc00$45749a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3AFF4B79.29E5A156@greenbelt.com> ajp166 wrote: > From: Bill Pechter > >Personally, I think DEC pretty much invented the workstation... > >Actually GT40's were pretty much early cad stations for pc cad > >(Racal-Redac) had some pretty good software on them. > > > >Wasn't the PDP1 pretty much an engineering workstation with Vector > >(rather than raster) based CRT. > > Yep and most of the later machines also had similar display systems > or better. > > >Apollo and Sun were pretty much an alternative to the higher > >priced Vaxes with add-on graphics like the VSV11 unit. > > Untill DEC caught on then the workation wars were on. > One must conclude that they lost, at least from a market share point-of-view? Eric > > Allison From allain at panix.com Sun May 13 22:19:22 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:19 2005 Subject: 11/750's References: <3AFF4491.35DD55A2@greenbelt.com> Message-ID: <001001c0dc24$ac95b680$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Edited message below. Believe I heard of such an interest on this list... Think he's in Washington state. ----- Edited Message ----- From: Robert Funderburg To: Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2001 11:12 PM I have 4 VAX 11/750 CPU`s if you or anyone you know might be interested. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From foo at siconic.com Sun May 13 21:23:18 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:19 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: <2601.533T1700T7704993optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 13 May 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > But they're really just old utensils. Da Vinci's sweat and saliva most > likely was no more brilliant than that of any other renaissance > Italaian. Iggy, he (Da Vinci) touched them. I'm sorry you can't understand it the way I do, and that's fine. Maybe I'm weird (ha ha :) But I think you are missing something big here. Either that or your emotion chip was removed. > And I'll argue that the reproduction is equal in every sense. Why > would the copy be less tangible to anyone else than the original? And that's where you are completely wrong. The style or technique or color or brush strokes may be off. There may be some nuance of a copy that does not have the same effect on someone observing the painting. The most important feature of the portait is the subject's faint smile. It was just so done to have people wondering just what was on Mona Lisa's mind for centuries. A copy may not capture that effect. > Da Vinci painted the original Mona Lisa. Since then, innumerable > reproductions have been made, but they're all Mona Lisas. No, they're all copies of THE Mona Lisa. BIG difference. > Why? Does historical context lie in the dust and grease? Of course. And the scratch marks, the tool indentations, etc. In other words the story of the machine. A new replica won't tell any story other than "Hi, I'm new." Here's an analogy. If we were able to clone Iggy and accelerate the growth of Iggy Serial Number 2 to where he was the same age as you are today, would he be just as good as you? Hell no. He wouldn't have YOUR story. He wouldn't have ANY story. He'd be a clean Iggy. He would look like you and sound like you, but he probably wouldn't act like you because the way you are has been shaped by the last N years of your life. Iggy Serial Number 2 will have accumulated no experiences, so he has no stories to tell. I'd hate to run into him at a party :) > Tacitus is no less Tacitus whether printed in the 90s AD, the 1920s or > last year. It still remains his work. Absolutely, but wouldn't it be very cool to hold an original Tacitus (who the hell is he?) scroll from 90AD? I once had the privelege of entering the Bodleian Library in Oxford, England, one of the most prestigious libraries in the world. I remember going through the aisles and seeing all manner of tomes, some of which were hundreds of years old! I actually got to hold in my own hands a book from the late 1400's and leaf through it. Can you imagine that? A book over 500 years old in my own hands. I don't even remember what the title or subject matter was, but that wasn't important. The most exciting thing for me was being able to hold a book that had been read by countless others before me going back to almost the time when the printing press was invented! For some people, the feeling of antiquity is quite a profound one. Have you never felt this? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Sun May 13 21:32:25 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:19 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 13 May 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > that were in the original. Sometimes though it is these minor things > that mean the difference. If one wants to look at the Mona Lisa as a > whole, any image or reproduction of it will suffice. If one wants to > actually study how DaVinci painted and what made his style unique > then you must seek out an original. In the end, it all boils down to Very good point! > what level one looks at and appreciates the item as to how important > the vintage or original is. For most people, a copy is all well and > good but there are those whose appreciation goes deepter, for reasons > no less valid. One could likely replicate early designs of Steve > Wozniak without too much trouble but would that same replica convey > his sense of style in the board layout, unless it was just an > outright copy? Not only that, but what about soldering technique, the most directly tangible evidence of an original electronics work? Would you also be able to match the PCB color, or source some of the parts? Some analogies to consider :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Sun May 13 21:41:15 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:19 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: <3AFF4491.35DD55A2@greenbelt.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 May 2001, Eric Chomko wrote: > I stand corrected! Thanks for the clarification. Do these things have > pedigrees at this point? Some of them, anyway? Some of them can be traced back to original owners (most of them are still owned by the original owners!) The Apple 1 auctioned at VCF 4.0 was owned by Ray Borrill, who bought 15 to sell in his computer store in Indianapolis, Indiana (USA). All of them sold, save for one he used one for a store display. He tucked it away at some point and forgot about it. Last year he decided it was finally time to sell it :) > P.S. Working on getting to Boston in late July. The Red Sox ARE in > town that weekend! Cool, see you there! If you don't know what Eric is talking about, it's the first VCF East Coast! July 28-29 at the Royal Plaza Trade Center in Marlborough, Massachusetts. The website should be update with complete details within the next day or so. I'll make an announcement when it does. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Sun May 13 22:43:48 2001 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:19 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On Message-ID: Yes, HP bought Apollo in 1989, solely for their RISC technology, which they added to their RISC chip and caused it to become much better than before... *Drools over thought of owning a 4 processor DN10000* Will J _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From donm at cts.com Sun May 13 23:30:52 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:19 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: <3AFF4491.35DD55A2@greenbelt.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 May 2001, Eric Chomko wrote: > > > Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > On Sun, 13 May 2001, Eric Chomko wrote: > > > > > 660 made of the Apple I and millions of Suns made; supply and demand. > > > > $660 + $6 ($666) was the selling price. 200 was the number made ;) > > > > I stand corrected! Thanks for the clarification. Do these things have pedigrees at > > this point? Some of them, anyway? > > > > > > The point is that we are all born into a context of this world that is > > > based upon reality as it is. Did you pick your parents, your family > > > name, the country you were born in, who was running the country, the > > > traditions, etc.? No, no...,no, and no. Like it or not, it IS. Why? > > > Because! > > > > Hey, this makes life so much more simple. Anytime someone asks me a "why" > > question, I'm just going to answer "Because!" and go on with my day. > > Brilliant! :) > > > > I'm glad you like it. I felt exactly the same way when I heard it. Certain things > are > not to ponder beyond a simple understanding of the context from which we came > into this world. > > It also goes a long way in understand those things which we DO have control and > acting > upon them accordingly. I used to get bogged down with many things due to the > why-nature > of them. Not any longer. I accept things as they are and then take it from there. > > Also, the why/because philosophy goes a long way WRT to dealing with my six year > old > daughter who has more questions than I can answer. She has learned to ask ones > that get > a response beyond "because", and I think we both appreciate those more as well. Surely she must have passed through the 'why because?' stage then. - don > Eric > > P.S. Working on getting to Boston in late July. The Red Sox ARE in town that > weekend! > > > > > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > > > From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sun May 13 23:38:14 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:19 2005 Subject: The XeroX-Files (can anyone ID these machines?) In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "May 13, 1 09:43:53 pm" Message-ID: <200105140438.VAA11080@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > I am asking because I want to know if I am the last person alive, who > when something fails (anything), gets out the toolkit, 'scope, > multimeter, etc and fixes it. No matter what the unit or fault actually > is. I thought at least on this list people tended to fix things. For my part, I'm all thumbs with a soldering iron. I just program the things. If my C128DCR crapped out on me and it wasn't a simple chip swap, I'd keep this one for parts and get another. I'm not knowledgeable enough (or patient enough ;-). -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- The superfluous is very necessary. -- Voltaire ----------------------------- From rdd at smart.net Mon May 14 00:17:30 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:19 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 13 May 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On 13 May 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > > > But they're really just old utensils. Da Vinci's sweat and saliva most > > likely was no more brilliant than that of any other renaissance > > Italaian. > > Iggy, he (Da Vinci) touched them. I'm sorry you can't understand it the > way I do, and that's fine. Maybe I'm weird (ha ha :) But I think you are Nah... there are no weird people on this list. Right? Some weird people may think us weird, and some of us in moments of disagreement may think one another weird, but we all know that, as Alice discovered, all is not always as it appears. Slightly eccentric perhaps, not sane by the standards set by the common loonies of the world, and perhaps a little mad. However, we're not weird. :-) > missing something big here. Either that or your emotion chip was removed. ...mightn't a computer virus have, possibly, placed subliminal messages on his screen causing that? > Here's an analogy. If we were able to clone Iggy and accelerate the > growth of Iggy Serial Number 2 to where he was the same age as you are [...] While we're on this topic, are the souls of clones new or could some of them have been reincarnated? > I once had the privelege of entering the Bodleian Library in Oxford, > England, one of the most prestigious libraries in the world. I remember [...] > others before me going back to almost the time when the printing press was > invented! That must have been a wonderful experience! > For some people, the feeling of antiquity is quite a profound one. Have > you never felt this? Yes... and somehow I think there's more to it that science can explain... as Iggy's often mentioning the metaphysical, perhaps this example will make more sense to him. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From BeaumontDawson at aol.com Mon May 14 01:47:08 2001 From: BeaumontDawson at aol.com (BeaumontDawson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:20 2005 Subject: IBM CICS manuals or other information Message-ID: <4a.15b8445d.2830d96c@aol.com> Hello out there, does anyone know where I can get hold of information on the follwing old IBM products (manuals/microfiche etc) products ----------- 5798-AXC 5796-AEF manuals ---------- SH20-1358 G320-8088 SN20-6277 From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon May 14 02:37:42 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:20 2005 Subject: FT: Rare Amiga serial cables Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010514003444.00a9d250@208.226.86.10> I just ran across my missing three serial cables that I got originally with my Commodore 8 port serial card for the A2000. These have a DB25 on one end and a 8 pin mini-DIN on the other. The A2000 w/ its card are gone, but the cables were left behind. So if you got one of these cards and are missing the cables this is a really great opportunity. Also found an AREXX book for the Amiga. Will include it if desired. They are available for trade for any DEC Q-bus or MicroVAX stuff. --Chuck From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon May 14 04:36:32 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:20 2005 Subject: gimpy (not broken) PSU In-Reply-To: <3AFF4B3B.9072C9D5@greenbelt.com> References: Message-ID: >IIRC, Compaqs use proprietary power supplies, and to me that's a bad thing in >the PC world. I can't help much beyond that, other than replacement will be a >royal pain. So who doesn't have a pile of old dead computers to scrap for working parts? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon May 14 04:30:12 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:20 2005 Subject: PS/2 Speech Adapter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Hello, all: > > I picked up (for $5) a brand new PS/2 speech adapter. It's a long >ISA card >with an external speaker box. Oddly, there is no software included at all. > > Does anyone know how this thing was supposed to be used. It has a TI >speech/DSP chip (not a GI or NS chip). These are pretty common in batches of school computers, but I don't really know the usage. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon May 14 04:39:58 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:20 2005 Subject: ldb4401 can be replaced by .....? In-Reply-To: <34424AC6.B34117A5@cyber.net.pk> Message-ID: >dear sir > >please address the issue > >regards > >nasir I have no answer. From philcarole at acenet.net.au Mon May 14 05:00:27 2001 From: philcarole at acenet.net.au (Phil & Carole) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:20 2005 Subject: se/30 Message-ID: <200105140945.EAA87883@opal.tseinc.com> can someone give me some info on se/30's or System 6.0.3? regards Tom, reply to:tomhotdog@hotmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010514/b03614ee/attachment.html From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon May 14 05:58:32 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:20 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010514035726.02371370@mail.zipcon.net> Just picked one up and it looks pretty sweet, I chose one with a HD controller in it :) and a 5 or 10 meg HD :) it came with a spare HD controller, so that's pretty sweet too, I just wish that it had also had the wood case on it... From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon May 14 05:59:38 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:20 2005 Subject: Quadram Quadboard Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010514035834.023736d0@mail.zipcon.net> Does anyone have docs for this beastie? it's an apple-II on a card that goes into an XT... or does anyone have any interest in it? it's been sitting on my shelf for ~ 12 years now... From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon May 14 06:05:48 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:20 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >For some people, the feeling of antiquity is quite a profound one. Have >you never felt this? I've had the pleasure of visiting numerous sites throughout Italy, Turkey and Greece and each time I visited a theatre, coloseum or city, I was in total awe. I was utterly amazed walking down the streets of the ruins of Perge in southern Turkey, a city whose beginnings date back over 2000 years, looking at the engineering marvels such as the water supply for the Roman baths and the beautiful architecture. Given the tools that they had at the time, those ruins are much more interesting than most things built today. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon May 14 06:24:26 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:20 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Not only that, but what about soldering technique, the most directly >tangible evidence of an original electronics work? Would you also be able >to match the PCB color, or source some of the parts? Some analogies to >consider :) The nearly intangible stuff that gives something it's character. I have a 200 year old grandfather clock and while you can certainly buy a new one whose parts are more consistent and fit together better, they certainly won't have the character of this one with all it's handmade parts. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From THETechnoid at home.com Mon May 14 07:42:40 2001 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:20 2005 Subject: In search of 20ma to eia converter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010514123643.GNTZ1760.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@Benchbox> The Atari 850 four port serial interface will handle 20ma current loop on ports three and four. You could read the tapes in, store them to disk, and upload them to your PC. I'll loan you all you'd need to do this if you promise to return the gear and pay shipping. Regards, Jeff In , on 05/14/01 at 08:42 AM, "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" said: >On Thu, 10 May 2001, Megan wrote: >> I have an old serial paper tape reader which runs with >> 20ma and would like to use it to archive all my pdp-11 >> (and some pdp-8) paper tapes. But I need a converter... >> Can anyone help? Any pointers to a simple schematic? >As a quick and dirty alternative: >The original IBM asynch adapter for the PC and XT was jumperable to >operate as EIA OR 20 ma! You could use a PC with one jumpered 20ma plus >one "regular" serial card as your converter. >-- >Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com >XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com >PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 >Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Mon May 14 07:06:20 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:20 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010514080620.00e6fba4@obregon.multi.net.co> Hmm... I never played on a DN10000. Which cpu chip did these things use? All the Apollos I used (up to DN4000) were 68K-based. I thought that HP bought Apollo because they were competing for exactly the same niche: technical workstations aimed at CAD/CAE with a lot of emphasis in the EE arena: almost all of the important EE packages ran on Apollo; EMTP, MatrixX, Matlab, even Mentor Graphics? I wasn't into chip design, but I know people used the Apollos for that. Plus, they shared the same cpu family at the time: 68K . I thought this would have made integration of Apollo into hp easier. Finally, I think that HPPA predates the buyout; It still had not made it into the 700-series machines, but there were many HPPA 800s already. Am I wrong? Carlos. At 09:43 PM 5/13/01 -0600, you wrote: >Yes, HP bought Apollo in 1989, solely for their RISC technology, which they >added to their RISC chip and caused it to become much better than before... >*Drools over thought of owning a 4 processor DN10000* > >Will J >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From optimus at canit.se Mon May 14 07:28:13 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:20 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1963.534T650T8084463optimus@canit.se> Jeff Hellige skrev: >>My point is that Mona Lisa isn't rare since there are reproductions. Anyone >>who'd pay millions more for the "original" is an utter fool. > The 'actual' Mon Lisa is rare because there is only one of them. You're wrong, there are actually millions of Mona Lisas. >Images of the painting are not rare and these reproductions, >regardless of how well done, lack all the various things that make it >a DaVinci, such as the way he did the brushstrokes. In much the same >way a reproduction of a computer system will fall short of the >original since there are likely miniscule things that were left out >that were in the original. Sometimes though it is these minor things >that mean the difference. If one wants to look at the Mona Lisa as a >whole, any image or reproduction of it will suffice. If one wants to >actually study how DaVinci painted and what made his style unique >then you must seek out an original. In the end, it all boils down to >what level one looks at and appreciates the item as to how important >the vintage or original is. For most people, a copy is all well and >good but there are those whose appreciation goes deepter, for reasons >no less valid. One could likely replicate early designs of Steve >Wozniak without too much trouble but would that same replica convey >his sense of style in the board layout, unless it was just an >outright copy? Assuming they copied the board layout, there would be no difference. Besides, I don't believe that you'd really need the actual painting in order to discern his technique. I don't even believe that his greatness lay in his brush technique, but rather in his choice of motives and composition. And as for computers, which are mass produced, there is even less of such technique to discern. Once a board is exposed, you may just as well do another hundred. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance. From optimus at canit.se Mon May 14 07:34:38 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:20 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: <3AFF4AAC.C0DC905E@greenbelt.com> Message-ID: <4245.534T1900T8145625optimus@canit.se> Eric Chomko skrev: >Iggy Drougge wrote: >> Eric Chomko skrev: >> >> >Iggy Drougge wrote: >> >> >> Sellam Ismail skrev: >> >> >> >> >On 12 May 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Da Vinci's greatness as an artist stemmed IOW from his ability to >> >> >> produce great works of art. A work of art is a work of art even if >> >> >> mass-produced, the last century has taught us as much. >> >> >> >> >Abstractly, yes. The original is a tangible product of the man, hence >> >> >it's value relative to copies. >> >> >> >> Are copies less tangible? >> >> >No, more tangible, and that is the point! When speaking of rarity and >> >value one deals with supply and demand. The demand for copies of originals >> >can always met, therefore the price is low. The demand for a unique item >> >will drive the price of the item up as long as more than one person wants >> >it. >> >> My point is that Mona Lisa isn't rare since there are reproductions. Anyone >> who'd pay millions more for the "original" is an utter fool. >There are many fools based upon your assessment. Did you know that Gates >purchased >a painting for $30million a few years ago? Is he an utter fool? This is not >directly related >to the arguement but is quite on-topic for the group and this particular >thread. Yes, he is. >Okay, two points... >Gates is worth what, $50billion? Half that? Maybe more or less? Let's use >$30billion to >make a point. Ratio $30million to $30billion is 1 to 1000. If someone has a >net worth of >$300K, then the 1 to 1000 ratio puts their expeniture at $300. Would you >spend >$300 >for a "rare" computer (forget panitings for the moment)? Do you see the >point? To Gates spending $30million is not unlike a $300 lay out for us poor >slobs. Its obscene I know, but it is what it is. The worst part is that I'd >be hard pressed to show I got $300K in personal wealth. :( I really doubt I would, but of course I understand that rare items cost more, it's some capitalist principle. OTOH, if there were a replica available at a lesser price, I would buy that one. >The second point is, suppose an organization like a museum or foundation >raise enough money to make a purchase like one for a rare painting, is that >such a bad thing? They put it on display for the public to see. Is this a >ship of fools in your book? Well, at least then it doesn't end up in Bill Gates' home, but they could just as well settle for a replica IMO. Many museums do, in fact. >> >> >> But of course it can! It's built from the same plans and offers the >> >> >> same functionality. >> >> >> >> >And it has all the historical significance that everything "Made in >> >> >Taiwan" has. Yes, of course! >> >> >> >> It doesn't matter whether it's built in Taiwan or the Czech republic as >> >> long as it's according to the plans. >> >> >That's not exactly correct when trying to determine the value of >> >something. >> >> >By your own arguement, no one here should collect an old computer based >> >upon functionality, as I can buy a new one than can out perform the old >> >ones. Therefore, no one should bother with older ones regardless of model >> >or type. >> >> In what way can any computer outperform another? Every computer is unique >> in its own sense, isn't that why we collect several? >Agreed. So why would a replica of a painting be any different than the >replica of a computer? Agreed. A computer replica is equal to the original, a replica of a painting is equal to the original. >> We don't use computers to run benchmarks. At least not most of the time. >True, but I think I missed the point of that. If that were all we used computers for, we would all just run what's cheap and fast, going by Sellam's argument. But then all computers (except for IBM PC clones) have something which is unique, something which made them sell in the first place. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. - Margo! Vad har h?nt. Du ser ju alldeles f?rst?rd ut. - Dom d?dade mig n?stan f?r att jag misslyckades. - Vilka ?r dom egentligen? - Jag vet inte vad dom heter. Men mannen som jagar dig heter Flinch, och han ?r en sadist. ... - Gud vad jag ?r avundsjuk. Varf?r f?r jag aldrig se n?t s?dant. Lupin III den otrolige (Lupin III vs. fukusei ningen), TMS 1978 From optimus at canit.se Mon May 14 07:40:30 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:20 2005 Subject: The XeroX-Files (can anyone ID these machines?) In-Reply-To: <002c01c0dc10$2048c000$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <393.534T1500T8205177optimus@canit.se> John Allain skrev: >> It's called the NEC Multisync 3D. =) >The thing in front of my face right now is >a NEC Multisync 3FGe. Any good? I really really doubt that. I think we concluded in another thread that the 3D was the last one to sync down to 15 KHz. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. echo "Your stdio isn't very std." --Larry Wall in Configure from the perl distribution From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon May 14 08:44:47 2001 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:20 2005 Subject: In search of 20ma to eia converter In-Reply-To: <20010514123643.GNTZ1760.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@Benchbox> Message-ID: <20010514134447.18761.qmail@web9502.mail.yahoo.com> --- THETechnoid@home.com wrote: > The Atari 850 four port serial interface will handle 20ma current loop on > ports three and four. You could read the tapes in, store them to disk, and > upload them to your PC. I'll loan you all you'd need to do this if you > promise to return the gear and pay shipping. As it turns out, I happen to have an Atari 800 (recently received with all the trimmings and an original receipt - $2700 in 1981) and a PRS/01 and a box of paper tapes. What software would you recommend for this task? How would you get the info off of the Atari once you got in on there? I'm sure a box of papertape would easily fit on a floppy, but is there an exchange program so that an 8-bit Atari can read MS-DOS floppies or vice- versa? Kermit? Thanks, -ethan P.S. - I also have a passive 20mA converter made by Inmac that I think was an option for a DECwriter - it has a similar mounting plate and the cable is about the right length - it would have plugged into an internal 20mA connector on the DECwriter and provided RS-232 on the other end. I can reverse-engineer the schematic without too much trouble. It might do the trick as well, but may require an external 12VDC source. ===== Visit "The Seventh Continent" http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From optimus at canit.se Mon May 14 08:01:37 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:20 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4626.534T1850T8415051optimus@canit.se> Sellam Ismail skrev: >On 13 May 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> But they're really just old utensils. Da Vinci's sweat and saliva most >> likely was no more brilliant than that of any other renaissance >> Italaian. >Iggy, he (Da Vinci) touched them. I'm sorry you can't understand it the >way I do, and that's fine. Maybe I'm weird (ha ha :) But I think you are >missing something big here. Either that or your emotion chip was removed. Don't put this up in the emotion register, this belongs in the sentimentality register. I can't see Da Vinci's fingerprints, you can't see Da Vinci's fingerprints, Da Vinci's fingerprint were not even interesting. He was a renaissance man, but though he did master many trades, making beautiful fingerprints surealy wasn't amongst those. >> And I'll argue that the reproduction is equal in every sense. Why >> would the copy be less tangible to anyone else than the original? >And that's where you are completely wrong. The style or technique or >color or brush strokes may be off. There may be some nuance of a copy >that does not have the same effect on someone observing the painting. The >most important feature of the portait is the subject's faint smile. It >was just so done to have people wondering just what was on Mona Lisa's >mind for centuries. A copy may not capture that effect. In that case, I'll say we ditch the copy, of course. >> Da Vinci painted the original Mona Lisa. Since then, innumerable >> reproductions have been made, but they're all Mona Lisas. >No, they're all copies of THE Mona Lisa. BIG difference. But since we have the copy, we have our very own Mona Lisas, and THE Mona Lisa is no more unique. >> Why? Does historical context lie in the dust and grease? >Of course. And the scratch marks, the tool indentations, etc. In other >words the story of the machine. A new replica won't tell any story other >than "Hi, I'm new." IOW MISB machines are useless. In that case, I've got machines teeming with "history" for you. I'll just keep the nice ones. =) >Here's an analogy. If we were able to clone Iggy and accelerate the >growth of Iggy Serial Number 2 to where he was the same age as you are >today, would he be just as good as you? Hell no. He wouldn't have YOUR >story. He wouldn't have ANY story. He'd be a clean Iggy. He would look >like you and sound like you, but he probably wouldn't act like you because >the way you are has been shaped by the last N years of your life. Iggy >Serial Number 2 will have accumulated no experiences, so he has no stories >to tell. I'd hate to run into him at a party :) And then I would argue that he wouldn't be Iggy at all. If you could copy my mind as well as my body, I would argue that I now had a twin. >> Tacitus is no less Tacitus whether printed in the 90s AD, the 1920s or >> last year. It still remains his work. >Absolutely, but wouldn't it be very cool to hold an original Tacitus (who >the hell is he?) scroll from 90AD? Yes, it would. Could be used as a pickup line - "Would you like to come home with me to see my collection of 90AD scrolls? I've even got a Tacitus..." >I once had the privelege of entering the Bodleian Library in Oxford, >England, one of the most prestigious libraries in the world. I remember >going through the aisles and seeing all manner of tomes, some of which >were hundreds of years old! I actually got to hold in my own hands a book >from the late 1400's and leaf through it. Can you imagine that? A book >over 500 years old in my own hands. I don't even remember what the title >or subject matter was, but that wasn't important. The most exciting thing >for me was being able to hold a book that had been read by countless >others before me going back to almost the time when the printing press was >invented! We had such books at our school library as well. It was interesting, quaint, but then I got the same sensation when we actually studied texts which had been used throughout centuries in Latin class. >For some people, the feeling of antiquity is quite a profound one. Have >you never felt this? Yes, but I think that it lies in the subject matter. IOW, a reprint of the same text or a copy of the same board has the same effect. One can still say that the board was designed in 1978. C64 were produced for 10 years, yet a 1992 model is equally classic, since they didn't touch the design. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. If you consistently take an antagonistic approach, however, people are going to start thinking you're from New York. :-) --Larry Wall to Dan Bernstein in <10187@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV> From optimus at canit.se Mon May 14 08:07:24 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: FT: Rare Amiga serial cables In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010514003444.00a9d250@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <593.534T1200T8474653optimus@canit.se> Chuck McManis skrev: >I just ran across my missing three serial cables that I got originally with >my Commodore 8 port serial card for the A2000. These have a DB25 on one end >and a 8 pin mini-DIN on the other. The A2000 w/ its card are gone, but the >cables were left behind. So if you got one of these cards and are missing >the cables this is a really great opportunity. Does anyone know if there's a common pinout on these mini-DIN connectors? BTW, I think the card's named A2232. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Amiga 4000/040 25MHz/44MB/20GB RetinaBLTZ3/VLab/FastlaneZ3/Ariadne/Toccata From oliv555 at arrl.net Mon May 14 08:52:16 2001 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (no) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: RISC6000 7007 POWERportable N40 Message-ID: <3AFFE310.143F1787@arrl.net> Saw this thread some months back but did'nt have an N40 then. Now I've picked up a couple at auction and having the same problem, namely systems come up to a login prompt and I don't have account/password. The original poster was able to work around by reloading the OS. But since I dont have the AIX3.2 distro it comes back to the original question, how to get into single user mode/root to be able to open a new user account? I've googled the net but little is out there about the N40. I'm a AIX/unix newbie so any pointers would be appreciated. Thanks - nick oliviero From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon May 14 09:28:52 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: ID this Intel Power Supply Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010514102134.00a03ec0@mailhost.intellistar.net> I went scrounging this weekend and found an Intel power supply. It's a stand alone uinit that runs on 115 or 230 volts AC and it has two output connectors. They look like Molex connectors but they're bigger than the ones used in the PCs. Each connector has nine pins and puts out 5 VDC@8A and + & - 12 VDC @ .5 A. The box is about a foot long and 6 inches wide and about 5 inches tall. The ends are white and the sides and top are made of perforated metal painted black. The Intel part number is 108399-003. Does anyone know what this is for? Joe From claudew at videotron.ca Mon May 14 10:18:03 2001 From: claudew at videotron.ca (Claude.W) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: FREE AMIGA MAGAZINES : 1989-1995 Amiga World, .info, Amigo Times, Amiga Transactor...many, or to reclycling they go Message-ID: <004901c0dc89$120f5980$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> Hi all from Montreal. Big piles of Amiga mags. Donated from frequent collection contributor (ex local DEC employee). Mostly Amiga World 1989 - 1995. A few .info, Amigo Times, Transactor, Amazing Amiga etc...All great shape. Sorry no time to list issues here. Not even time to go through them...Perhaps you are looking to complete some years or whatever. Ask for issues, Ill get back to you quick, I check email often. Free for just shipping You can ask for one (cheap to ship) or some....or all of them ($$$ to ship...) Please hurry cause these will go in recycling bin in a few days. This is not a trade - these are offered free....but you can always remember me now or in the future....I collect mostly "home" micros 197x-198x 8 and 16 bits...some machines rare here in Montreal...and common in US... Thanks Claude http://computer_collector.tripod.com From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Mon May 14 10:33:56 2001 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: Vintageness Message-ID: My opinion on the value of old items is that they were created for a task, they performed the task and then survived to the present. For example I am thrilled when I can hold and read a rare book that was read by somebody 400 years ago. I'm seeing the same information that they saw, I'm reading the same words. Some of the books aren't event that old, I have read first edition science fiction books from the 1930's. Seeing an old computer gives me the same thrill, the Smithsonian has examples of computers on display that I can remember using 20-30 years ago. Maybe it's nostalgia for my youth. I think the real reason is that there was a great promise that computers offered to solve problems never before solved. Now we are numbed by the rapid progress and "noise level". There are games, media, and information that comes at us in an avalanche and we filter out the value of most of it. The Apollo era computers and hardware now seem so simple almost antique, yet at the time they did the job and were examples of the level of sophistication that could be achieved. Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu From norm.anheier at pnl.gov Mon May 14 10:32:04 2001 From: norm.anheier at pnl.gov (Anheier, Norman C Jr) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: PDP-11/70 boards available Message-ID: <228C5EBB26701542946C14D5205AE6D5039E8C@pnlmse08.pnl.gov> I have some PDP-11/70 boards available. The board numbers are: M8123 M8164 M8136 M8135 M8142 M7984 Please contact me if you can use any of these. Thanks Norm From epgroot at ucdavis.edu Mon May 14 10:36:49 2001 From: epgroot at ucdavis.edu (Edwin P. Groot) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: se/30 In-Reply-To: <200105140945.EAA87883@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010514083649.007fa330@yellow.ucdavis.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1009 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010514/f7df2546/attachment.bin From brian.roth at firstniagarabank.com Mon May 14 10:59:02 2001 From: brian.roth at firstniagarabank.com (brian roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: Trade for PDP8a/RC25 Message-ID: I need to find a limited function front panel for a PDP8a and a working RC25. The internal drive on the RC25 does not have to be functional as most are not but the external cart drive needs to be functional. I have some older VAXstations that I would be willing to trade. Brian. Brian Roth Network Services First Niagara Bank (716) 625-7500 X2186 Brian.Roth@FirstNiagaraBank.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon May 14 11:00:20 2001 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: <4626.534T1850T8415051optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <20010514160020.1075.qmail@web9501.mail.yahoo.com> --- Iggy Drougge wrote: > Sellam Ismail skrev: > >I once had the privelege of entering the Bodleian Library in Oxford, > >England, one of the most prestigious libraries in the world. I remember > >going through the aisles and seeing all manner of tomes, some of which > >were hundreds of years old! I did a summer study program at Oxford about 15 years ago. One of the coolest things was that we got a Bodleian library card! No books can be checked out; the card entitles you to make book requests of the 19 acres of underground stacks and have it delivered to a reading room. > >I actually got to hold in my own hands a book > >from the late 1400's and leaf through it. Can you imagine that? A book > >over 500 years old in my own hands. In the card catalog room, I remember perusing almanacs on the open shelves that were published before, during and right after the American Revolution. It was amazing reading in the original what the British thought. More so for books, but somewhat so for vintage hardware (to keep this slightly on topic) - a huge benefit of holding an original is that you can be sure there hasn't been any revisionism. I have this stalled project to build an Elf design *based* on the Quest Elf, but I'm not trying to represent it as the real thing. It will more or less work like the original, but the only reason it's a reasonable substitute is becase you _can_ stick real logic probes in it, etc., and it behaves like the original under most circumstances. There are times, though, when you just want to work with the "real thing". My opinions, I should say, are colored by the fact that I have a degree in History (not Computer Science or EE), and spent months of my college career doing archaeology in Greece. In that context, only originals will do for research (not display) because we don't know enough about how things were really made/used in many cases to even _make_ a functional copy. Now, you can learn a lot by attempting to make reproductions and seeing how yours differs from the origonal, but you still need the original to compare it to. Last point - we are tactile beings - we use touch to connect us to things, to prove they are "real". I think an original is far more valuable than a copy, but copies are not always available/accessible. As long as you disclose that something is not an original, I have no problem with it. I looked in on that Mark 8 auction and it was clear to me that it was modern materials and an old design. Can't belive it went for $1600, though (http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1233211623) Makes me want to go out and build my own. Are the plans available anywhere on the web? ===== Visit "The Seventh Continent" http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From fernande at internet1.net Mon May 14 11:02:39 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: Quadram Quadboard References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010514035834.023736d0@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <3B00019F.98218BA7@internet1.net> Are you sure? The only cards I have heard of like that are the Trackstars. I always thought the Quadboard was a RAM expansion card for the PC? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Geoff Reed wrote: > > Does anyone have docs for this beastie? it's an apple-II on a card that > goes into an XT... or does anyone have any interest in it? it's been > sitting on my shelf for ~ 12 years now... From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 14 11:26:13 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: Quadram Crap In-Reply-To: <3B00019F.98218BA7@internet1.net> Message-ID: The Quadboard was a multifunction card for the PC. Serial, parallel, clock, memory. They were pretty good. The QUADLINK was an Apple][ on a card. It had one major difference from the Trackstars: the Trackstars worked. The college where I teach purchased 20 of the Quadlinks. 14 of them were DOA. On several of them, connectors had been installed backwards, making them not only non-functional, but clearly demonstrating that they had never been tested. The DOA ones were returned for replacement. At least 10 of the replacement ones were also DOA, including a few with incorrect connector mountings. It is not necessary to test EVERY product iff you have a high enough success rate statistically. Quadlink was 70% DOA. Quadram was obviously incompetent in quality control, sampling, and in calculating their statistics. It IS necessary to test EVERY replacement unit that goes out. Sampling is NOT acceptable procedure for replacements. To EVER send a defective replacement (a second attempt) is inexcusable. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com On Mon, 14 May 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > Are you sure? The only cards I have heard of like that are the > Trackstars. > > I always thought the Quadboard was a RAM expansion card for the PC? > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > Geoff Reed wrote: > > > > Does anyone have docs for this beastie? it's an apple-II on a card that > > goes into an XT... or does anyone have any interest in it? it's been > > sitting on my shelf for ~ 12 years now... > -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 From jimoaks at one.net Mon May 14 11:36:50 2001 From: jimoaks at one.net (Jim Oaks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: FREE AMIGA MAGAZINES : 1989-1995 Amiga World, .info, Amigo Times, Amiga Transactor...many, or to reclycling they go In-Reply-To: <004901c0dc89$120f5980$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> Message-ID: <000901c0dc94$15917a60$c21c8d0a@billy> Claude Id love to get them all please let me know what the shipping would be to Cincinnati, ohio Thanks Jim -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Claude.W Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 11:18 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: FREE AMIGA MAGAZINES : 1989-1995 Amiga World, .info, Amigo Times, Amiga Transactor...many, or to reclycling they go Hi all from Montreal. Big piles of Amiga mags. Donated from frequent collection contributor (ex local DEC employee). Mostly Amiga World 1989 - 1995. A few .info, Amigo Times, Transactor, Amazing Amiga etc...All great shape. Sorry no time to list issues here. Not even time to go through them...Perhaps you are looking to complete some years or whatever. Ask for issues, Ill get back to you quick, I check email often. Free for just shipping You can ask for one (cheap to ship) or some....or all of them ($$$ to ship...) Please hurry cause these will go in recycling bin in a few days. This is not a trade - these are offered free....but you can always remember me now or in the future....I collect mostly "home" micros 197x-198x 8 and 16 bits...some machines rare here in Montreal...and common in US... Thanks Claude http://computer_collector.tripod.com From curt at atari-history.com Mon May 14 14:38:52 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: Looking for a PIC expert References: Message-ID: <3B00344C.712F2A30@atari-history.com> Hi, I'm looking for anyone with a good amount of experience working with different PIC processors. I need to convert some very old 13 bit word code for an older long since discontinued and incompatible PIC to something more modern and readily accessible. I have the code currently in .hex format files from 2 2716's (since its 13 bit code and wont fit on a single eprom) Any interested in helping out??? Curt From foo at siconic.com Mon May 14 10:38:57 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon. In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010514035726.02371370@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 May 2001, Geoff Reed wrote: > Just picked one up and it looks pretty sweet, I chose one with a HD > controller in it :) and a 5 or 10 meg HD :) it came with a spare HD > controller, so that's pretty sweet too, I just wish that it had also > had the wood case on it... Not all had the wooden case. I have one that has a metal enclosure, but it's the only one I've ever seen that didn't have a wooden enclosure. It would be simple to reconstruct the cover. It was made simply out of 3/8" plywood and then varnished a dark walnut-like color. If you would like the dimensions and some notes on the grooves on the underside that it uses to fit onto the base I can get that for you. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon May 14 11:28:48 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: Quadram Quadboard In-Reply-To: <3B00019F.98218BA7@internet1.net> Message-ID: That's what all the ones I ever had were and I used to have docs for one but it's long gone into oblivion somewhere. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Chad Fernandez > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 11:03 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Quadram Quadboard > > > Are you sure? The only cards I have heard of like that are the > Trackstars. > > I always thought the Quadboard was a RAM expansion card for the PC? > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > Geoff Reed wrote: > > > > Does anyone have docs for this beastie? it's an apple-II on a card that > > goes into an XT... or does anyone have any interest in it? it's been > > sitting on my shelf for ~ 12 years now... From bpope at wordstock.com Mon May 14 11:46:19 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: FREE AMIGA MAGAZINES : 1989-1995 Amiga World, .info, Amigo Times, Amiga Transactor...many, or to reclycling they go In-Reply-To: <004901c0dc89$120f5980$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> from "Claude.W" at May 14, 01 11:18:03 am Message-ID: <200105141646.MAA14189@wordstock.com> > > Hi all from Montreal. > > Big piles of Amiga mags. Donated from frequent collection contributor (ex > local DEC employee). > > Mostly Amiga World 1989 - 1995. A few .info, Amigo Times, Transactor, > Amazing Amiga etc...All great shape. > I am interested in .info, Amigo Times and the Transactors. How much does the Amiga Worlds weigh? It would be sads to see good magazines disappear into the ether forever... > Sorry no time to list issues here. Not even time to go through > them...Perhaps you are looking to complete some years or whatever. Ask for > issues, Ill get back to you quick, I check email often. > > Free for just shipping > > You can ask for one (cheap to ship) or some....or all of them ($$$ to > ship...) > > Please hurry cause these will go in recycling bin in a few days. > > This is not a trade - these are offered free....but you can always remember > me now or in the future....I collect mostly "home" micros 197x-198x 8 and 16 > bits...some machines rare here in Montreal...and common in US... > Cheers, Bryan From foo at siconic.com Mon May 14 10:49:50 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: <4626.534T1850T8415051optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 14 May 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Don't put this up in the emotion register, this belongs in the > sentimentality register. I can't see Da Vinci's fingerprints, you Sentimentality IS an emotional response, silly! > can't see Da Vinci's fingerprints, Da Vinci's fingerprint were not > even interesting. He was a renaissance man, but though he did master > many trades, making beautiful fingerprints surealy wasn't amongst > those. All I can say is "whatever", Iggy. You obviously see things much differently on this point and there's no sense in continuing to beat it into oblivion. > >And that's where you are completely wrong. The style or technique or > >color or brush strokes may be off. There may be some nuance of a copy > >that does not have the same effect on someone observing the painting. The > >most important feature of the portait is the subject's faint smile. It > >was just so done to have people wondering just what was on Mona Lisa's > >mind for centuries. A copy may not capture that effect. > > In that case, I'll say we ditch the copy, of course. Ah, we're making progress. > >No, they're all copies of THE Mona Lisa. BIG difference. > > But since we have the copy, we have our very own Mona Lisas, and THE > Mona Lisa is no more unique. Yes it is. Just like each copy is unique. Maybe you were given a copy of the Mona Lisa by your favorite relative and on the back he or she wrote something to you. It would now be unique. And perhaps quite meaningful to you. > >Here's an analogy. If we were able to clone Iggy and accelerate the > >growth of Iggy Serial Number 2 to where he was the same age as you are > >today, would he be just as good as you? Hell no. He wouldn't have YOUR > >story. He wouldn't have ANY story. He'd be a clean Iggy. He would look > >like you and sound like you, but he probably wouldn't act like you because > >the way you are has been shaped by the last N years of your life. Iggy > >Serial Number 2 will have accumulated no experiences, so he has no stories > >to tell. I'd hate to run into him at a party :) > > And then I would argue that he wouldn't be Iggy at all. If you could EXACTLY! He would not be Iggy, just a replica! IT'S THE SAME THING WITH SOMEONE TRYING TO SELL A MODERN-DAY MARK-8 KIT AS AN ORIGINAL FROM THE 1970'S!!! > >Absolutely, but wouldn't it be very cool to hold an original Tacitus (who > >the hell is he?) scroll from 90AD? > > Yes, it would. Could be used as a pickup line - "Would you like to > come home with me to see my collection of 90AD scrolls? I've even got > a Tacitus..." Or it could result in an embarassing snub, or a painful slap. > > For some people, the feeling of antiquity is quite a profound one. > > Have you never felt this? > > Yes, but I think that it lies in the subject matter. IOW, a reprint of the > same text or a copy of the same board has the same effect. One can still say > that the board was designed in 1978. C64 were produced for 10 years, yet a > 1992 model is equally classic, since they didn't touch the design. If you are looking at it from the perspective of a tool for doing something with, yes, you are correct. If you're looking at it as an actual piece of history, an artifact, no, you are incorrect. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Mon May 14 11:52:28 2001 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On Message-ID: The DN10000 is the bit-slice implementation of the RISC chip Apollo designed.. Here's a note from a computer architecture site: PRISM (3-wide LIW), 1988 - Barry Flahive, Rick Bahr, and John Yates John Yates contributed the multi-issue idea. PRISM was a 3-wide machine -- in each successive clock tick, you could do a floating-point add, a floating-point multiply, and an integer operation (typically a LOAD, for instance of two floating point registers). Perfectly balanced for single-precision Linpack or FFT. DN10000 - the first (and last) model, 54 MIPS, 36 megaflops in 1989. Paul Mageau and Andy Milia were chiefly responsible for the memory system. Doug Voorhies, Olin Lathrop, and Dave Kirk were chiefly responsible for the graphics system. Therefore, the DN10000 is the bit-slice implementation of PRISM... A bunch of the stuff in PRISM went into PA-RISC 1.1, I believe... The date for PA-RISC 1.0 is 1987, don't know now of any machines besides one model of 3000 that use it... _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Mon May 14 11:55:41 2001 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: ID this Intel Power Supply Message-ID: <20010514.120242.-391045.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Joe: You've just described the power supply for one of our Intel ICE's (one of the *really* old ones). The sides a slightly sloped like a FLUKE PTI style case, right? Almost certainly used with one of their (Old) emulator or dev products. Jeff On Mon, 14 May 2001 10:28:52 -0400 joe writes: > I went scrounging this weekend and found an Intel power supply. > It's > a stand alone uinit that runs on 115 or 230 volts AC and it has two > output > connectors. They look like Molex connectors but they're bigger than > the > ones used in the PCs. Each connector has nine pins and puts out 5 > VDC@8A > and + & - 12 VDC @ .5 A. The box is about a foot long and 6 inches > wide and > about 5 inches tall. The ends are white and the sides and top are > made of > perforated metal painted black. The Intel part number is > 108399-003. Does anyone know what this is for? > > Joe > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon May 14 12:11:14 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: Heath H-101 revisited In-Reply-To: <3B00019F.98218BA7@internet1.net> Message-ID: <01May14.132221edt.119045@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> My father finally shipped the H-101 out to me that Jay picked up a couple of months back (thanks Jay!). It's going to need a bit of cleaning up but looks to be complete. It has the following items installed: - Winchester Disk Controller 85-2819-1 - Floppy Disk Controller 85-2807-2 - ADS Promblaster II - Rodime RO204 20MB hard disk - a single 5-1/4" floppy drive Any information anyone can provide on the Promblaster would be greatly appreciated. It has a 40pin ribbon cable connected to it exiting the rear of the machine but whatever it was connected to is missing. Also, what's the difference between this Winchester controller and the two-board controller? Jeff From RCini at congressfinancial.com Mon May 14 12:14:21 2001 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: VCF East 1.0 - July 28/29 in Marlborough, Massachusetts! Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E587990A@MAIL10> Who's going to VCF East?? I was toying around with going and wanted to see who from the list would be there. Rich -----Original Message----- From: Vintage Computer Festival [mailto:vcf@siconic.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 12:46 AM To: Classic Computers Mailing List Subject: VCF East 1.0 - July 28/29 in Marlborough, Massachusetts! It's finally official! VCF East 1.0 July 28-29, 2001 10am to 5pm daily Best Western Royal Plaza Hotel and Trade Center Marlborough, Massachusetts Admission $10 daily at the door Speakers Want to give a talk at VCF East 1.0? E-mail me at . Exhibitors Sign-up your exhibit at http://www.vintage.org/2001/east/exhibit.php3 Vendors Want to sell vintage computer stuff at VCF East 1.0? Contact me at . More info to come soon, including updated VCF East 1.0 web pages with speaker schedule, exhibits and more! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From sheldon at ameritech.net Mon May 14 12:26:48 2001 From: sheldon at ameritech.net (Sheldon Leemon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: FREE AMIGA MAGAZINES Message-ID: <3B001558.8010800@ameritech.net> Claude, I'm interested in the last couple of AmigaWorld issues to complete my collection, March 1995-onward. Thanks, --Sheldon From jss at ou.edu Mon May 14 12:26:02 2001 From: jss at ou.edu (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: <20010514160020.1075.qmail@web9501.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20010514160020.1075.qmail@web9501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <989861162.3b00152a56589@email.ou.edu> I also have had a book experience that relates to this thread. I recently toured the History of Science Collection at the Univ. of OK, and I saw some very cool books there. The highlight of the tour was, when in the vault where the older stuff was kept, I was shown an early printing of Galileo's book. To my surprise, the curator opened the book, and on the first page was the writer's signature! Though that thorougly amazed me, it got even better. The book before me was Galileo's *personal* copy, complete with notes in the margins written by Galileo's hand. If you tell me that that the awe I felt was unfounded, then you must have some screws loose. Honestly, Iggy, it seems like you like to create conflict for the sheer fun of it. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@ou.edu From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon May 14 12:28:49 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: VCF East 1.0 - July 28/29 in Marlborough, Massachusetts! In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E587990A@MAIL10> Message-ID: <3B0031F1.31544.5E60C856@localhost> > Who's going to VCF East?? I was toying around with going and wanted to see > who from the list would be there. :) I'm just looking for the right mode of transportation... Ciao Hans -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 14 12:39:46 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 14 May 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > It would be simple to reconstruct the cover. It was made simply out of > 3/8" plywood and then varnished a dark walnut-like color. I no longer have a Northstar, but wasn't it 1/2"? Besides, won't that trigger a few hundred posts arguing about "vintage" v restoration/reproduction? Have you bought plywood lately? They have reduced the thicknesses of plywood! You can't get the right thickness to make an accurate copy! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 14 12:45:52 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: VCF East 1.0 - July 28/29 in Marlborough, Massachusetts! In-Reply-To: RE: VCF East 1.0 - July 28/29 in Marlborough, Massachusetts! (Cini, Richard) References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E587990A@MAIL10> Message-ID: <15104.6608.215026.471513@phaduka.neurotica.com> I'll be there, barring any catastrophe. -Dave McGuire On May 14, Cini, Richard wrote: > Who's going to VCF East?? I was toying around with going and wanted to see > who from the list would be there. > > Rich > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Vintage Computer Festival [mailto:vcf@siconic.com] > Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 12:46 AM > To: Classic Computers Mailing List > Subject: VCF East 1.0 - July 28/29 in Marlborough, Massachusetts! > > > > It's finally official! > > VCF East 1.0 > July 28-29, 2001 > 10am to 5pm daily > Best Western Royal Plaza Hotel and Trade Center > Marlborough, Massachusetts > > Admission > > $10 daily at the door > > Speakers > > Want to give a talk at VCF East 1.0? E-mail me at . > > > Exhibitors > > Sign-up your exhibit at http://www.vintage.org/2001/east/exhibit.php3 > > > Vendors > > Want to sell vintage computer stuff at VCF East 1.0? Contact me at > . > > > More info to come soon, including updated VCF East 1.0 web pages with > speaker schedule, exhibits and more! > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org From chomko at greenbelt.com Mon May 14 12:49:47 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On References: <4245.534T1900T8145625optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3B001ABB.7CEC8FFA@greenbelt.com> Iggy Drougge wrote: > Eric Chomko skrev: > > >Iggy Drougge wrote: > > >> Eric Chomko skrev: > >> > >> >Iggy Drougge wrote: > >> > >> >> Sellam Ismail skrev: > >> >> > >> >> >On 12 May 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > >> >> > >> >> >> Da Vinci's greatness as an artist stemmed IOW from his ability to > >> >> >> produce great works of art. A work of art is a work of art even if > >> >> >> mass-produced, the last century has taught us as much. > >> >> > >> >> >Abstractly, yes. The original is a tangible product of the man, hence > >> >> >it's value relative to copies. > >> >> > >> >> Are copies less tangible? > >> > >> >No, more tangible, and that is the point! When speaking of rarity and > >> >value one deals with supply and demand. The demand for copies of originals > >> >can always met, therefore the price is low. The demand for a unique item > >> >will drive the price of the item up as long as more than one person wants > >> >it. > >> > >> My point is that Mona Lisa isn't rare since there are reproductions. Anyone > >> who'd pay millions more for the "original" is an utter fool. > > >There are many fools based upon your assessment. Did you know that Gates > >purchased > >a painting for $30million a few years ago? Is he an utter fool? This is not > >directly related > >to the arguement but is quite on-topic for the group and this particular > >thread. > > Yes, he is. > > >Okay, two points... > > >Gates is worth what, $50billion? Half that? Maybe more or less? Let's use > >$30billion to > >make a point. Ratio $30million to $30billion is 1 to 1000. If someone has a > >net worth of > >$300K, then the 1 to 1000 ratio puts their expeniture at $300. Would you > >spend > >$300 > >for a "rare" computer (forget panitings for the moment)? Do you see the > >point? To Gates spending $30million is not unlike a $300 lay out for us poor > >slobs. Its obscene I know, but it is what it is. The worst part is that I'd > >be hard pressed to show I got $300K in personal wealth. :( > > I really doubt I would, but of course I understand that rare items cost more, > it's some capitalist principle. OTOH, if there were a replica available at a > lesser price, I would buy that one. But would you not feel somewhat cheated if the replica was passed off as an original? Honest business, despite what you make think of the system overall, is at least honest. Confusing capitalism with deception is a flaw that I have noted with some folks that come from Europe. I see a clear difference. > > > >The second point is, suppose an organization like a museum or foundation > >raise enough money to make a purchase like one for a rare painting, is that > >such a bad thing? They put it on display for the public to see. Is this a > >ship of fools in your book? > > Well, at least then it doesn't end up in Bill Gates' home, but they could just > as well settle for a replica IMO. > Many museums do, in fact. > But most folks want to see the orginal in a museum. > > >> >> >> But of course it can! It's built from the same plans and offers the > >> >> >> same functionality. > >> >> > >> >> >And it has all the historical significance that everything "Made in > >> >> >Taiwan" has. Yes, of course! > >> >> > >> >> It doesn't matter whether it's built in Taiwan or the Czech republic as > >> >> long as it's according to the plans. > >> > >> >That's not exactly correct when trying to determine the value of > >> >something. > >> > >> >By your own arguement, no one here should collect an old computer based > >> >upon functionality, as I can buy a new one than can out perform the old > >> >ones. Therefore, no one should bother with older ones regardless of model > >> >or type. > >> > >> In what way can any computer outperform another? Every computer is unique > >> in its own sense, isn't that why we collect several? > > >Agreed. So why would a replica of a painting be any different than the > >replica of a computer? > > Agreed. A computer replica is equal to the original, a replica of a painting > is equal to the original. > In your world... Just don't expect others to believe it. And as I have said often before in other posting forums, it may have to be a case where we simply must have to agree to disagree. > > >> We don't use computers to run benchmarks. At least not most of the time. > > >True, but I think I missed the point of that. > > If that were all we used computers for, we would all just run what's cheap and > fast, going by Sellam's argument. But then all computers (except for IBM PC > clones) have something which is unique, something which made them sell in the > first place. > But the term vintage or collectible brings on a whole new meaning. Eric > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > - Margo! Vad har h?nt. Du ser ju alldeles f?rst?rd ut. > - Dom d?dade mig n?stan f?r att jag misslyckades. > - Vilka ?r dom egentligen? > - Jag vet inte vad dom heter. Men mannen som jagar dig heter Flinch, och han > ?r en sadist. > ... > - Gud vad jag ?r avundsjuk. Varf?r f?r jag aldrig se n?t s?dant. > Lupin III den otrolige (Lupin III vs. fukusei ningen), TMS 1978 From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Mon May 14 12:58:22 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: FREE AMIGA MAGAZINES In-Reply-To: <3B001558.8010800@ameritech.net> from Sheldon Leemon at "May 14, 1 01:26:48 pm" Message-ID: <200105141758.KAA11260@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > I'm interested in the last couple of AmigaWorld issues to > complete my collection, March 1995-onward. Thanks, > > --Sheldon Is this *the* Sheldon Leemon of "Mapping the C64" fame? If so, do you object to feckless and utter adoration from those of us who keep your tome on the same shelf as other great works such as the C64 PRG and "Inside Commodore DOS"? :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Never blame on malice what can be blamed on abject idiocy. ----------------- From bpope at wordstock.com Mon May 14 12:56:52 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: FREE AMIGA MAGAZINES In-Reply-To: <3B001558.8010800@ameritech.net> from "Sheldon Leemon" at May 14, 01 01:26:48 pm Message-ID: <200105141756.NAA29424@wordstock.com> > > --Sheldon > !!!!! Excuse me, but are you *THE* Sheldon Leemon?! Of COMPUTE! and Mapping the Commodore 64? Just wondering, Bryan From mbg at world.std.com Mon May 14 13:19:12 2001 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: VCF East 1.0 - July 28/29 in Marlborough, Massachusetts! References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E587990A@MAIL10> Message-ID: <200105141819.OAA22676@world.std.com> I'm going to be there... with at least one exhibit, maybe two... and dec handbooks and reference cards. Megan From claudew at videotron.ca Mon May 14 13:27:54 2001 From: claudew at videotron.ca (Claude.W) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: FREE AMIGA MAGAZINES in Montreal -- They are gone... Message-ID: <002f01c0dca3$977e7140$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> Never expected this response to a bunch of magazines Already have 4 - 5emails. Talking with people in order of emails received, if they look at shipping and pass, I go on to next. But already have 5 so thats pretty much it I guess someone in those 5 will be willing to pay shipping. Thanks Claude From mtapley at swri.edu Mon May 14 13:35:09 2001 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: Vintageness Message-ID: Iggy, You are in a rare and enviable position, if you really don't care whether what you get is the original or a copy. To you, if I interpret what you say correctly, - A CD and Walkman is better than a night at the symphony (cheaper, can be replayed at will). - Safeway (a chain of grocery stores in the US) generic root beer is better than A&W (cheaper, still floats ice cream) - A Saturn (car) is better than a BMW M3. (cheaper, more dealers, still gets up to the speed limit) - A print of the Mona Lisa is as good as the original (and can be rolled up and stuffed in a tube for transportation or mailing). - This year's repro Mark-8 is as good as a 1970's one (and more reliable). - Corner liquor-store champagne is as good as Dom Perignon (still bubbles, you still get tipsy when you drink enough). This is wonderful for you because you can afford all the ersatz experiences a *lot* more easily than I could afford all the originals. It's also slightly good for me, because it means you won't be competing with me if I should ever have a chance to buy the Mona Lisa (or a BMW, ...). I *know* there are differences between the originals and the copies, in all of the cases I listed above. In three out of six, I am well enough equipped to appreciate them, and I would *really* want to see/use the original at least once, even if budgetary constraints forced me to live with the copy long-term. (ie: go to the symphony and then buy the CD, hoping it would help me remember some of what the symphony was like). In the other three cases, I don't appreciate all of the differences. But because they *are* copies, I *know* they are there, and if I ever become better educated, I may regret owning a copy when I learn what they are - or I may forever miss out on some subtle beauty of the original, because I settled for a copy. Suppose I never drove a BMW - a Saturn always got me where I was going. I could easily sneer at people who "wasted their money on BMW's", out of ignorance. The fact that I really wouldn't be able to tell the difference as I was learning to drive doesn't mean I'd never be able to tell. The same applies to research on the history of the creation of the original. Maybe the PC board was laid out a certain way to facilitate test during assembly, or because the designer knew his PC etching technique wouldn't support two vias too close together. If Speedy Circuits can now put 10 vias in the same space, and the "copy" is laid out to take advantage of that, some history is lost, whether original 1970's parts are used or not - and if I am researching the copy, I'll never notice it. And I don't buy the argument that any copy will ever be the true equal of the original - it may be pretty close, *in the characteristics that the copiers care about*, but it won't be the same. Finally, and this may be the point that you and Sellam are most at odds about, there is a component of emotional state that is important to any experience. If you are able to put yourself into the same emotional state before and during viewing a copy of the Mona Lisa as you would be viewing the actual Mona Lisa - good for you. It'll save you the price of admission to the Louvre (or where-ever the Mona Lisa is). I can't. I think, based on his arguments, Sellam can't (correct me if I'm wrong here, Sellam). To us, the knowledge of what we are looking at is a critical part of experiencing it. It's worth something (though it may not be worth the cost of buying the thing, either), and it means we do not regard people who value originalty (and pay a lot for the originals) as "idiots" - we share some of their values. It doesn't mean we won't use copies either. I've never seen the real Mona Lisa, but the copies I've seen are good, and I've enjoyed them. But I want to see the real one, someday. - Mark From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon May 14 13:41:22 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <01May14.145227edt.119045@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> On Monday, May 14, 2001, at 01:39 PM, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > Besides, won't that trigger a few hundred posts arguing about > "vintage" v > restoration/reproduction? But the central part of the machine would still be the original Horizon so reproducing the outer panels to restore it's look shouldn't be a problem. Regardless of how well you care for something, it is eventually going to need some restoration work, that's just a part of aging. A great many antique cars have gone through multiple restorations at this point. Jeff From foo at siconic.com Mon May 14 12:46:15 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 14 May 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Mon, 14 May 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > It would be simple to reconstruct the cover. It was made simply out of > > 3/8" plywood and then varnished a dark walnut-like color. > > I no longer have a Northstar, but wasn't it 1/2"? Perhaps...I'd have to check. > Besides, won't that trigger a few hundred posts arguing about "vintage" v > restoration/reproduction? Better than about guns or spy planes ;) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From clint.millett at Kayden.com Mon May 14 13:55:16 2001 From: clint.millett at Kayden.com (Clint Millett) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: Tango Schematic capture, PCB layout and autorouting programs Message-ID: <669AF19B2A003B4BB20F209C40BB4C3605C1F9@EXCHANGE1.CENTRUM> Hi Joe, I've been using this program for years. I use it almost everyday and find that it is very simple to use (but I have been using it since 1988 so it is now natural to me). If you can find a flatbed plotter, you can actually put a resist pen into the pen holder and plot PCB's right at your desk. I have done lots of boards this way for prototyping purposes and have saved a bundle in PCB prototyping costs. Clinton M. Millett, CET, MCSE Senior Design Technologist Kayden Instruments Inc. 3368 - 114 Ave SE Calgary, Alberta, Canada T2Z 3V6 Phone: (403) 236-6232 FAX: (403) 253-1423 EMAIL:clint.millett@kayden.com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon May 14 13:55:08 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: ID this Intel Power Supply In-Reply-To: <20010514.120242.-391045.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010514145039.00a0d500@mailhost.intellistar.net> Thanks Jeff, that sounds like it. Yes, the sides are sloped. I've also got an old Intel ICE box that I found dumped in a field behind the same scrap place. It sounds like it was part of the same system. I also found some pods that were made by Intel and that look like logic analyer pods INSIDE the same place. I expect that they're also part of the same system. I guess if I keep looking around there I may end up with a complete system! But I don't think I need any of it. Does anyone want all or part of it? Joe Joe At 11:55 AM 5/14/01 -0500, you wrote: >Joe: > >You've just described the power supply for one of our >Intel ICE's (one of the *really* old ones). The sides >a slightly sloped like a FLUKE PTI style case, right? > >Almost certainly used with one of their (Old) emulator or >dev products. > > >Jeff > >On Mon, 14 May 2001 10:28:52 -0400 joe writes: > > I went scrounging this weekend and found an Intel power supply. > > It's > > a stand alone uinit that runs on 115 or 230 volts AC and it has two > > output > > connectors. They look like Molex connectors but they're bigger than > > the > > ones used in the PCs. Each connector has nine pins and puts out 5 > > VDC@8A > > and + & - 12 VDC @ .5 A. The box is about a foot long and 6 inches > > wide and > > about 5 inches tall. The ends are white and the sides and top are > > made of > > perforated metal painted black. The Intel part number is > > 108399-003. Does anyone know what this is for? > > > > Joe > > > >________________________________________________________________ >GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! >Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! >Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From donm at cts.com Mon May 14 14:12:39 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: se/30 In-Reply-To: <200105140945.EAA87883@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 May 2001, Phil & Carole wrote: > can someone give me some info on se/30's or System 6.0.3? > regards Tom, > reply to:tomhotdog@hotmail.com Log on to www.lowendmac.com and you should find abundant information. - don From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon May 14 14:24:30 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: Tango Schematic capture, PCB layout and autorouting programs In-Reply-To: <669AF19B2A003B4BB20F209C40BB4C3605C1F9@EXCHANGE1.CENTRUM> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010514151944.00a0c150@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi Clint, This is an old thread, where did you find this message at? Thanks for the info. I have the Tango programs and I played with them briefly but I haven't had time to use them seriously. Don Maslin sent me the program that I was missing (Thanks, Don!) Mine are DOS versions and were written for a low-end 386 and they really fly on my 486-100. I have a HP 7550 plotter. I haven't checked to see if Tango supports it but they probably support something siimilar. They all use HP-GL. Thanks, Joe At 12:55 PM 5/14/01 -0600, you wrote: >Hi Joe, > >I've been using this program for years. I use it almost everyday and >find that it is very simple to use (but I have been using it since 1988 >so it is now natural to me). > >If you can find a flatbed plotter, you can actually put a resist pen >into the pen holder and plot PCB's right at your desk. I have done lots >of boards this way for prototyping purposes and have saved a bundle in >PCB prototyping costs. > >Clinton M. Millett, CET, MCSE >Senior Design Technologist >Kayden Instruments Inc. >3368 - 114 Ave SE >Calgary, Alberta, Canada >T2Z 3V6 > >Phone: (403) 236-6232 >FAX: (403) 253-1423 >EMAIL:clint.millett@kayden.com From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon May 14 14:41:41 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: VCF East 1.0 - July 28/29 in Marlborough, Massachusetts! In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E587990A@MAIL10> Message-ID: <01May14.155248edt.119045@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> On Monday, May 14, 2001, at 01:14 PM, Cini, Richard wrote: > Who's going to VCF East?? I was toying around with going and wanted to > see > who from the list would be there. I'm hoping to be up there for it and am currently working on transportation Jeff From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon May 14 14:45:43 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: CompatiCards ? Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010514152504.00a0cc20@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi, I have a CompatiCard I and I just picked up a CompatiCard IV. Will the CC 1 do anything that the IV won't? I'm wondering if I need to keep the CC-1. Can anyone send me the details about the CC-IV? I have the driver file and it's currently in a system and connected to two 1.44Mb 3.5" floppy drives and a 1.2Mb 5 1/4" drive and it seems to be working but I'd like to know how to configure it for other drives. Joe From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon May 14 15:04:50 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: PS/2 Speech Adapter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010514130416.02287e90@mail.zipcon.net> At 02:30 AM 5/14/01 -0700, you wrote: > >Hello, all: > > > > I picked up (for $5) a brand new PS/2 speech adapter. It's a long > >ISA card > >with an external speaker box. Oddly, there is no software included at all. > > > > Does anyone know how this thing was supposed to be used. It has a TI > >speech/DSP chip (not a GI or NS chip). > >These are pretty common in batches of school computers, but I don't really >know the usage. The TI Speech ship is the same one that TI used in the speech adaptor for the TI 99 computer... From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Mon May 14 14:57:42 2001 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Leo Rachor Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: Diablo 3200 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've been told that a local computer scrap warehouse has run across something called a Diablo 3200 apparantly built into a custom Desk. I'm afraid the guts will be removed as trash so the unit is probably history but it got me to wondering what this machine was all about. I had worked for Diablo during the Daisy wheel days and had heard references to other equipment made by Diablo prior to being bought by Xerox but didn't know specifics. I'm told that the equipment consisted of a CPU and at least 1 8 inch disk drive. Anyone have an idea what OS might have used. Was it CP/M or something less universal? Best regards, George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon May 14 15:09:13 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: Quadram Quadlink was Quadram Quadboard In-Reply-To: <3B00019F.98218BA7@internet1.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010514035834.023736d0@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010514130812.02280a70@mail.zipcon.net> I stand corrected, I just looked at it again :) it's a Quadram Quadlink that'll teach me to try to read and post in the wee hours :):) At 12:02 PM 5/14/01 -0400, you wrote: >Are you sure? The only cards I have heard of like that are the >Trackstars. > >I always thought the Quadboard was a RAM expansion card for the PC? > >Chad Fernandez >Michigan, USA > >Geoff Reed wrote: > > > > Does anyone have docs for this beastie? it's an apple-II on a card that > > goes into an XT... or does anyone have any interest in it? it's been > > sitting on my shelf for ~ 12 years now... From marvin at rain.org Mon May 14 15:28:14 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: Ahl - Basic Computer Games References: <01May14.155248edt.119045@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <3B003FDE.16F3A9EA@rain.org> I am continuing to clean out stuff and found a duplicate copy of Basic Computer Games by David Ahl. $5.00 including US mailing. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon May 14 15:47:32 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: PDP 11/84 faceplate sticker available Message-ID: <3B004464.64338700@mcmanis.com> Don't know how I ended up with this but I've got a brand new, never used PDP 11/84 front panel sticker. It has the PDP 11/84 legend and the switch legend on it. If anyone is restoring an 11/84 and could use this let me know. Its free but you must have a PDP 11/84 :-) --Chuck From donm at cts.com Mon May 14 15:51:02 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon. In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010514035726.02371370@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 May 2001, Geoff Reed wrote: > Just picked one up and it looks pretty sweet, I chose one with a HD > controller in it :) and a 5 or 10 meg HD :) it came with a spare HD > controller, so that's pretty sweet too, I just wish that it had also had > the wood case on it... If you know someone with a saw, it wouldn't be all that difficult to build one. It is just three pieces of wood - a top and two sides. - don From curt at atari-history.com Mon May 14 18:53:08 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: nvram that 2716 pin compatible??? References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010514035834.023736d0@mail.zipcon.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20010514130812.02280a70@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <3B006FE4.68A0F508@atari-history.com> Anyone know of any nvram currently avail. or discontinued that would 2716 pin compatible???? Curt From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 14 13:13:13 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:21 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: <3AFF411A.793D603F@greenbelt.com> from "Eric Chomko" at May 13, 1 10:21:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 972 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010514/51aa229a/attachment.ksh From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 14 16:02:34 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:22 2005 Subject: nvram that 2716 pin compatible??? In-Reply-To: nvram that 2716 pin compatible??? (Curt Vendel) References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010514035834.023736d0@mail.zipcon.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20010514130812.02280a70@mail.zipcon.net> <3B006FE4.68A0F508@atari-history.com> Message-ID: <15104.18410.964729.571237@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 14, Curt Vendel wrote: > Anyone know of any nvram currently avail. or discontinued that would 2716 pin > compatible???? Howbout the Seeq (et al) 2816? -Dave McGuire From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 14 15:29:50 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:22 2005 Subject: gimpy (not broken) PSU In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at May 14, 1 02:36:32 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 331 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010514/4be1d5dd/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 14 15:11:16 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:22 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: <3AFF461F.B4126D73@greenbelt.com> from "Eric Chomko" at May 13, 1 10:42:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1059 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010514/9e92582d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 14 12:49:47 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:22 2005 Subject: ldb4401 can be replaced by .....? In-Reply-To: <34424AC6.B34117A5@cyber.net.pk> from "Abdul Rehman" at Oct 13, 97 09:22:30 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 617 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010514/ebf99005/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 14 13:08:18 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:22 2005 Subject: gimpy (not broken) PSU In-Reply-To: from "Demon02554@aol.com" at May 13, 1 10:05:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 940 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010514/71aa7e76/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 14 15:18:22 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:22 2005 Subject: The XeroX-Files (can anyone ID these machines?) In-Reply-To: <200105140438.VAA11080@stockholm.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at May 13, 1 09:38:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1845 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010514/a4a2ecb3/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 14 13:03:23 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:22 2005 Subject: FDCs -- was Re: TELEDISK Problem In-Reply-To: <01a401c0dc0c$25d99a70$45749a8d@ajp166> from "ajp166" at May 13, 1 08:23:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2981 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010514/9181b43e/attachment.ksh From donm at cts.com Mon May 14 16:09:15 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:22 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 14 May 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 14 May 2001, Geoff Reed wrote: > > > Just picked one up and it looks pretty sweet, I chose one with a HD > > controller in it :) and a 5 or 10 meg HD :) it came with a spare HD > > controller, so that's pretty sweet too, I just wish that it had also > > had the wood case on it... > > Not all had the wooden case. I have one that has a metal enclosure, but > it's the only one I've ever seen that didn't have a wooden enclosure. > > It would be simple to reconstruct the cover. It was made simply out of > 3/8" plywood and then varnished a dark walnut-like color. Mine is 5/8" and with veneered edges also. - don > If you would like the dimensions and some notes on the grooves on the > underside that it uses to fit onto the base I can get that for you. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 14 13:05:12 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:22 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: from "Will Jennings" at May 13, 1 06:32:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 622 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010514/4b376896/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 14 15:06:05 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:22 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at May 13, 1 07:32:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2110 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010514/6da43d40/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 14 12:52:25 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:22 2005 Subject: DRV11-WA info In-Reply-To: from "Will Jennings" at May 13, 1 05:47:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 627 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010514/bed64ead/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 14 15:33:37 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:22 2005 Subject: In search of 20ma to eia converter In-Reply-To: <20010514134447.18761.qmail@web9502.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at May 14, 1 06:44:47 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 865 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010514/d3d178dd/attachment.ksh From foo at siconic.com Mon May 14 15:48:37 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:22 2005 Subject: Diablo 3200 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 14 May 2001, George Leo Rachor Jr. wrote: > I've been told that a local computer scrap warehouse has run across > something called a Diablo 3200 apparantly built into a custom Desk. > I'm afraid the guts will be removed as trash so the unit is probably > history but it got me to wondering what this machine was all about. > I had worked for Diablo during the Daisy wheel days and had heard > references to other equipment made by Diablo prior to being bought by > Xerox but didn't know specifics. I just picked one up within the last month. I don't have a picture of it but I can get one today. It's an 8080-based machine that was marketed as an office data processing system. I company I pulled it out of used it to do payroll and stuff up until a few years ago. The machine was sold in the late 1970s. I think it first went on the market in 1977. The computer part is stuffed underneath the desk on the right-hand side. The disk drives (mine has four 8" floppies) are on the left. The terminal is built into the desktop. It also came with a separate daisy-wheel printer. It reminds me very much of the IBM 3741 Display Station that I picked up about a month prior to this. In fact, I'm speculating that the 3200 was Diablo's attempt to better the 3741 and compete against IBM in the small- to medium-sized business realm. The 3741 has a small terminal built into the desktop (very small, only like 4" across) and two 8" floppies mounted vertically on the surface of the desk. It also came with a separate dot matrix printer. The 3741 was sold as a data entry terminal, but it actually had a BASIC interpreter and most likely other languages could be gotten for it (mine came with BASIC). > Anyone have an idea what OS might have used. Was it CP/M or something > less universal? The Diablo 3200 ran CP/M. It would be a shame to let this beast go to its death. I've never seen a Diablo 3200 before or after the one I got, in fact I'd never even heard of it, and I'm a bit surprised to see mention of another. My guess is that they are extremely rare. You should do what you can to rescue it, although it is a bit sizeable and would take up a little space in your garage or what not. Diablo was a San Francisco Bay Area company that was more than likely named after Mount Diablo, a rather large mountain east of the hills separating the Oakland east bay area from the inland east bay area (locally known as the Tri-Valley area :) Up until I found the 3200, I didn't know they made anything other than disk drives and printers. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From donm at cts.com Mon May 14 17:07:34 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:22 2005 Subject: Lexitron VT1303, NBI System 3000, NBI System 4000s Message-ID: Hello UK readers, The following two messages are, in reverse order, an original posting in alt.folklore.computers and Trevor's reply to my query about disks for the Lexitron. I include the first message to show some sense of urgency and the second for equipment information. Please reply directly to Trevor, not me. - don ================================= >From trevor.barker@virgin.net Mon May 14 14:54:22 2001 Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 19:39:54 +0100 From: Trevor Barker To: Don Maslin Subject: RE: Lexitron VT1303, NBI System 3000, NBI System 4000s Hi Don, Thanks for you reply, unfortunately I don't have the disks, sorry. Do you know of anyone this side of the pond who might be interested?, only I'm moving house soon and will have to take the machines to the local tip if I can't find a home for them - which I can't bear to do. Regards Trevor ================================ Path: nntp.cts.com!galanthis.cts.com!newspeer.cts.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer0!btnet!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news6-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail From: "Trevor Barker" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: Lexitron VT1303, NBI System 3000, NBI System 4000s Lines: 15 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 15:57:12 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.252.1.13 X-Complaints-To: abuse@virgin.net X-Trace: news6-win.server.ntlworld.com 989765616 62.252.1.13 (Sun, 13 May 2001 15:53:36 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 15:53:36 BST Organization: Virgin Net Usenet Service Xref: nntp.cts.com alt.folklore.computers:59636 Hi, I have the following computers / word processors, for which I would like to find good homes (UK):- Lexitron VT1303, NBI System 3000, NBI System 4000s anyone interested? They were in working order when they were given to me 10 years ago, can't vouch for them now though. From THETechnoid at home.com Mon May 14 17:14:17 2001 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:22 2005 Subject: In search of 20ma to eia converter In-Reply-To: <20010514134447.18761.qmail@web9502.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010514221406.EOSE965.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@Benchbox> Most recent Peecees won't read single-density disks. If you have a double-density drive for your Atari then you can read them with a special utility. There are several options for the PC and for the Atari to interchange disks, but the simplest method if you lack the macdaddy Atari 8-bit disk interface (the Black Box Floppy Board), the solution is either a Null-modem, or a product that is free called SIO2PC. Another, better-than-SIO2PC product is called APE (for Atari Peripheral Exchange). Null-modem should be fine and the best terminal program for the Atari 8bit is BOBTERM. Does just about everything. Kermit is there too, but it is primitive compared to BobTerm and other term progs for the Atari. Give me a call at the number below if you want specific help. I'd love to help. Regards, Jeff In <20010514134447.18761.qmail@web9502.mail.yahoo.com>, on 05/14/01 at 06:14 PM, Ethan Dicks said: >--- THETechnoid@home.com wrote: >> The Atari 850 four port serial interface will handle 20ma current loop on >> ports three and four. You could read the tapes in, store them to disk, and >> upload them to your PC. I'll loan you all you'd need to do this if you >> promise to return the gear and pay shipping. >As it turns out, I happen to have an Atari 800 (recently received with >all the trimmings and an original receipt - $2700 in 1981) and a PRS/01 >and a box of paper tapes. What software would you recommend for this >task? How would you get the info off of the Atari once you got in on >there? I'm sure a box of papertape would easily fit on a floppy, but is >there an exchange program so that an 8-bit Atari can read MS-DOS floppies >or vice- >versa? Kermit? >Thanks, >-ethan >P.S. - I also have a passive 20mA converter made by Inmac that I think >was an option for a DECwriter - it has a similar mounting plate and the >cable is about the right length - it would have plugged into an internal >20mA connector on the DECwriter and provided RS-232 on the other end. I >can reverse-engineer the schematic without too much trouble. It might do >the trick as well, but may require an external 12VDC source. >===== >Visit "The Seventh Continent" >http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices >http://auctions.yahoo.com/ -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From optimus at canit.se Mon May 14 18:08:13 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:22 2005 Subject: Token Ring coax? Message-ID: <1022.535T650T84795optimus@canit.se> While oogling all the pretty Apollo pictures at http://www.citi.umich.edu/apollo-archive/photo-gallery/ , I found two puzzling pictures: http://www.citi.umich.edu/apollo-archive/photo-gallery/apolloXrnsXautolab.jpg http://www.citi.umich.edu/apollo-archive/photo-gallery/apolloXrnsXautolab2.jpg They're described as a "Token Ring Remote Network Switch (RNS)", but then what are all that coaxial wiring doing there? All TR which I've encountered has been either TP or those frightening IBM connectors. What is the meaning of all this? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. JavaScript has been developed to show scrolling messages on your pages. It should have been named ScrollerScript, but as it came out more or less the same time when the hype on a programming language called Java (poor man's SmallTalk raped by C++ which is expected to solve all problems of the world, including traffic, pollution and AIDS) started, it's creators decided to use the term ``Java'' in it's name, too. -- README for the HTML preprocessor "hsc" From optimus at canit.se Mon May 14 17:56:51 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:22 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4161.534T2550T14365939optimus@canit.se> Sellam Ismail skrev: >On 14 May 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> Don't put this up in the emotion register, this belongs in the >> sentimentality register. I can't see Da Vinci's fingerprints, you >Sentimentality IS an emotional response, silly! I'd call it a tainted emotion. >> can't see Da Vinci's fingerprints, Da Vinci's fingerprint were not >> even interesting. He was a renaissance man, but though he did master >> many trades, making beautiful fingerprints surealy wasn't amongst >> those. >All I can say is "whatever", Iggy. You obviously see things much >differently on this point and there's no sense in continuing to beat it >into oblivion. No. =) >> >And that's where you are completely wrong. The style or technique or >> >color or brush strokes may be off. There may be some nuance of a copy >> >that does not have the same effect on someone observing the painting. The >> >most important feature of the portait is the subject's faint smile. It >> >was just so done to have people wondering just what was on Mona Lisa's >> >mind for centuries. A copy may not capture that effect. >> >> In that case, I'll say we ditch the copy, of course. >Ah, we're making progress. A bad copy is bad. >> >No, they're all copies of THE Mona Lisa. BIG difference. >> >> But since we have the copy, we have our very own Mona Lisas, and THE >> Mona Lisa is no more unique. >Yes it is. Just like each copy is unique. Maybe you were given a copy of >the Mona Lisa by your favorite relative and on the back he or she wrote >something to you. It would now be unique. And perhaps quite meaningful >to you. Now we're making progress. Just like every copy is unique. We're all unique, but then uniqueness is not a particularly unique trait. =) >> >Here's an analogy. If we were able to clone Iggy and accelerate the >> >growth of Iggy Serial Number 2 to where he was the same age as you are >> >today, would he be just as good as you? Hell no. He wouldn't have YOUR >> >story. He wouldn't have ANY story. He'd be a clean Iggy. He would look >> >like you and sound like you, but he probably wouldn't act like you because >> >the way you are has been shaped by the last N years of your life. Iggy >> >Serial Number 2 will have accumulated no experiences, so he has no stories >> >to tell. I'd hate to run into him at a party :) >> >> And then I would argue that he wouldn't be Iggy at all. If you could >EXACTLY! He would not be Iggy, just a replica! But not even a good replica! He'd just be a lump of flesh which looked like me, just like a cardboard mockup of your favourite computer. >IT'S THE SAME THING WITH SOMEONE TRYING TO SELL A MODERN-DAY MARK-8 KIT AS >AN ORIGINAL FROM THE 1970'S!!! Not really, that is a fully-fledged clone, like the one below. Oh, you cut that one out... >> >Absolutely, but wouldn't it be very cool to hold an original Tacitus (who >> >the hell is he?) scroll from 90AD? >> >> Yes, it would. Could be used as a pickup line - "Would you like to >> come home with me to see my collection of 90AD scrolls? I've even got >> a Tacitus..." >Or it could result in an embarassing snub, or a painful slap. No need to be so tactile. >> > For some people, the feeling of antiquity is quite a profound one. >> > Have you never felt this? >> >> Yes, but I think that it lies in the subject matter. IOW, a reprint of the >> same text or a copy of the same board has the same effect. One can still >> say that the board was designed in 1978. C64 were produced for 10 years, >> yet a >> 1992 model is equally classic, since they didn't touch the design. >If you are looking at it from the perspective of a tool for doing >something with, yes, you are correct. If you're looking at it as an >actual piece of history, an artifact, no, you are incorrect. Why? A commy is a commy is a commy. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. [E]xcept in the works of Gunnar Asplund, architect of the Stockholm Exhibition of 1930 and the Stockholm crematorium, Sweden has never contributed much to the revolutionary developments through which modern architecture made its initial impact on the world. J.M. Richards, Modern Architecture From donm at cts.com Mon May 14 17:37:32 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:22 2005 Subject: CompatiCards ? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010514152504.00a0cc20@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 May 2001, joe wrote: > Hi, > > I have a CompatiCard I and I just picked up a CompatiCard IV. Will > the CC 1 do anything that the IV won't? I'm wondering if I need to keep > the CC-1. The CompatiCard IV is to be preferred, Joe. Easier to setup and handles 2.88mb drives amongst other things. > Can anyone send me the details about the CC-IV? I have the driver > file and it's currently in a system and connected to two 1.44Mb 3.5" floppy > drives and a 1.2Mb 5 1/4" drive and it seems to be working but I'd like to > know how to configure it for other drives. I'll mail you a Xerox of the manual. - don > Joe > > From sipke at wxs.nl Mon May 14 17:39:59 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:22 2005 Subject: gimpy (not broken) PSU References: Message-ID: <001401c0dcc6$ceb249c0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Hi Robert, Every PC-PSU has a currentlimiter circuit that will shut down the PSU in case of currents (or voltages) that exceed the limits of it's specs by some margin. Most PSU also have a temperature protection that shuts down the PSU in case the driver transitor(s) get too hot. In your case I suspect that one or more of these transitors went bad and that the PSU-temp limit kicks in with everything but the smallest load because they/it are/is already hot when no load is drawn. Once this protection kicks in you will have to switch off the mains power to reset the PSU. So removing the load as you've described will not bring the PSU back to a low-load working mode. IMHO ... Either this is a very "small" PSU or this PSU is defect! Normally a PSU only works with a minimum load of say 0.5 Amp @ 5V So I use an old defunkt harddrive as a minimum load to test the PSU Advise: Work out the maximum load that still lets the PSU "work" and measure the voltages on one of the drive-leads. An old (obsolete) 3.5 floppy drive might be a good test load. The voltage across the black-red connector should be ~+5V and across the yellow-black connector should be ~+12V If things are no longer in this range than consider it a dead PSU Even if these voltages are in this range it may be defect but at least it will not kill off any of your other equipment while trying ....... Consider that opening up the PSU and frolicking around in it may pose a risk to your equipment and to your health........ ;( If you don't know what you are doing get somebody who knows.... or buy a new PSU. After all, they are not that expensive nowadays Or look in a thriftshop for a good second hand. regards Sipke de Wal ------------------------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx ------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 4:05 AM Subject: gimpy (not broken) PSU > ok...this one is weird > it is a standard PSU in a 486 Compaq that i just dug up outta my dads > storage... > it will start up only if i disconnect it from everything... > when i connect it to the motherboard and only the motherboard then it will > start for a few seconds, then die...and even if i disconnect everything from > it after that it won't start back up... > before i go through and test every connection does anyone have any > suggestions as to what is wrong with this thing? > > thanks, > Robert Cobbins From jpero at sympatico.ca Mon May 14 13:54:37 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:22 2005 Subject: gimpy (not broken) PSU In-Reply-To: <001401c0dcc6$ceb249c0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <20010514225207.LUH7009.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > From: "Sipke de Wal" > To: > Subject: Re: gimpy (not broken) PSU > Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 00:39:59 +0200 > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Hi Robert, Robert, Find peecee PS/2 style AT PSU and compare to your compaq's PSU, is it exact fit, same connectors styles? Replace compaq's PSU with that $40 PSU. ATX PSU is same shape and mounting screws is same as PS/2 style PSUs for peecees except ATX doesn't have power switch cord coming out of box ending into 4 spade connectors. Many of low end like Prolina 4/33 series were like that and that compaq's power switch has spade connectors much like any PS/2 style AT PSUs have. Has to open the protective black bracket (also has spreaker mounted on it) that holds the switch to get at that spade connectors, black bracket is snap together assembly and held in place by screws to chassis. When PSU wears out it's components, refuses to work under load and nearly 90% of switching PSUs needs minimum load. Motherboard or a HD is the *minimum* load. Cheers, Wizard Snip (too techy details snipped). From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Mon May 14 17:53:53 2001 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Leo Rachor Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:22 2005 Subject: Diablo 3200 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sellam, Stay of execution on this Diablo 3200..... We have bought a bit of time as my wife has convinced them not to hack it up until I get to see this critter. Obviously we have no software for the machine and I'm assuming you don't either. The computer recycler has agreed not to remove the original components until it can be determined if the box is usuable in some rudimentry function as is. (They were going to gut the original components and replace the guts with something more modern). Now the challenge is to find software that might boot the machine up. slightly hopeful... George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Mon, 14 May 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 14 May 2001, George Leo Rachor Jr. wrote: > > > I've been told that a local computer scrap warehouse has run across > > something called a Diablo 3200 apparantly built into a custom Desk. > > I'm afraid the guts will be removed as trash so the unit is probably > > history but it got me to wondering what this machine was all about. > > I had worked for Diablo during the Daisy wheel days and had heard > > references to other equipment made by Diablo prior to being bought by > > Xerox but didn't know specifics. > > I just picked one up within the last month. I don't have a picture of it > but I can get one today. > > It's an 8080-based machine that was marketed as an office data processing > system. I company I pulled it out of used it to do payroll and stuff up > until a few years ago. The machine was sold in the late 1970s. I think > it first went on the market in 1977. > > The computer part is stuffed underneath the desk on the right-hand side. > The disk drives (mine has four 8" floppies) are on the left. The terminal > is built into the desktop. It also came with a separate daisy-wheel > printer. > > It reminds me very much of the IBM 3741 Display Station that I picked up > about a month prior to this. In fact, I'm speculating that the 3200 was > Diablo's attempt to better the 3741 and compete against IBM in the small- > to medium-sized business realm. The 3741 has a small terminal built into > the desktop (very small, only like 4" across) and two 8" floppies mounted > vertically on the surface of the desk. It also came with a separate dot > matrix printer. The 3741 was sold as a data entry terminal, but it > actually had a BASIC interpreter and most likely other languages could be > gotten for it (mine came with BASIC). > > > Anyone have an idea what OS might have used. Was it CP/M or something > > less universal? > > The Diablo 3200 ran CP/M. > > It would be a shame to let this beast go to its death. I've never seen a > Diablo 3200 before or after the one I got, in fact I'd never even heard of > it, and I'm a bit surprised to see mention of another. My guess is that > they are extremely rare. You should do what you can to rescue it, > although it is a bit sizeable and would take up a little space in your > garage or what not. > > Diablo was a San Francisco Bay Area company that was more than likely > named after Mount Diablo, a rather large mountain east of the hills > separating the Oakland east bay area from the inland east bay area > (locally known as the Tri-Valley area :) Up until I found the 3200, I > didn't know they made anything other than disk drives and printers. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 14 18:00:25 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:22 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 14 May 2001, Don Maslin wrote: > > the wood case on it... > If you know someone with a saw, it wouldn't be all that difficult to > build one. It is just three pieces of wood - a top and two sides. But it wouldn't be "original" From optimus at canit.se Mon May 14 18:52:42 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:22 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: <3B001ABB.7CEC8FFA@greenbelt.com> Message-ID: <4693.535T2100T525569optimus@canit.se> Eric Chomko skrev: >Iggy Drougge wrote: >> Eric Chomko skrev: >> >> >Iggy Drougge wrote: >> >> >> Eric Chomko skrev: >> >> >> >> >Iggy Drougge wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Sellam Ismail skrev: >> >> >> >> >> >> >On 12 May 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Da Vinci's greatness as an artist stemmed IOW from his ability to >> >> >> >> produce great works of art. A work of art is a work of art even if >> >> >> >> mass-produced, the last century has taught us as much. >> >> >> >> >> >> >Abstractly, yes. The original is a tangible product of the man, >> >> >> >hence it's value relative to copies. >> >> >> >> >> >> Are copies less tangible? >> >> >> >> >No, more tangible, and that is the point! When speaking of rarity and >> >> >value one deals with supply and demand. The demand for copies of >> >> >originals can always met, therefore the price is low. The demand for a >> >> >unique item will drive the price of the item up as long as more than >> >> >one person wants it. >> >> >> >> My point is that Mona Lisa isn't rare since there are reproductions. >> >> Anyone who'd pay millions more for the "original" is an utter fool. >> >> >There are many fools based upon your assessment. Did you know that Gates >> >purchased >> >a painting for $30million a few years ago? Is he an utter fool? This is >> >not directly related to the arguement but is quite on-topic for the group >> >and this particular thread. >> >> Yes, he is. >> >> >Okay, two points... >> >> >Gates is worth what, $50billion? Half that? Maybe more or less? Let's use >> >$30billion to >> >make a point. Ratio $30million to $30billion is 1 to 1000. If someone has >> >a net worth of >> >$300K, then the 1 to 1000 ratio puts their expeniture at $300. Would you >> >spend >> >$300 >> >for a "rare" computer (forget panitings for the moment)? Do you see the >> >point? To Gates spending $30million is not unlike a $300 lay out for us >> >poor slobs. Its obscene I know, but it is what it is. The worst part is >> >that I'd be hard pressed to show I got $300K in personal wealth. :( >> >> I really doubt I would, but of course I understand that rare items cost >> more, it's some capitalist principle. OTOH, if there were a replica >> available at a lesser price, I would buy that one. >But would you not feel somewhat cheated if the replica was passed off as an >original? Haven't I stated time and again that there is no difference? The question is why anyone would even bother to state whether it is original or not. >Honest business, despite what you make think of the system overall, is at >least honest. Confusing capitalism with deception is a flaw that I have noted >with some folks that come from Europe. I see a clear difference. I agree, one should be honest. >> >The second point is, suppose an organization like a museum or foundation >> >raise enough money to make a purchase like one for a rare painting, is >> >that such a bad thing? They put it on display for the public to see. Is >> >this a ship of fools in your book? >> >> Well, at least then it doesn't end up in Bill Gates' home, but they could >> just as well settle for a replica IMO. Many museums do, in fact. >But most folks want to see the orginal in a museum. But then again, they usually wouldn't be able to tell the difference. >> >> >By your own arguement, no one here should collect an old computer based >> >> >upon functionality, as I can buy a new one than can out perform the old >> >> >ones. Therefore, no one should bother with older ones regardless of >> >> >model or type. >> >> >> >> In what way can any computer outperform another? Every computer is >> >> unique in its own sense, isn't that why we collect several? >> >> >Agreed. So why would a replica of a painting be any different than the >> >replica of a computer? >> >> Agreed. A computer replica is equal to the original, a replica of a >> painting is equal to the original. >In your world... Granted. >Just don't expect others to believe it. And as I have said often before in >other posting forums, it may have to be a case where we simply must have to >agree to disagree. I think so, too. >> >> We don't use computers to run benchmarks. At least not most of the time. >> >> >True, but I think I missed the point of that. >> >> If that were all we used computers for, we would all just run what's cheap >> and fast, going by Sellam's argument. But then all computers (except for >> IBM PC clones) have something which is unique, something which made them >> sell in the first place. >But the term vintage or collectible brings on a whole new meaning. What meaning? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. optimus@dec:foo$ %blow bash: fg: %blow: no such job From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon May 14 18:12:29 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:22 2005 Subject: Quadram Quadboard Message-ID: <00c001c0dccc$7e6bd890$47789a8d@ajp166> I'd add if it has TWO 6502s it would be just like my trackstar128. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Chad Fernandez To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, May 14, 2001 12:57 PM Subject: Re: Quadram Quadboard >Are you sure? The only cards I have heard of like that are the >Trackstars. > >I always thought the Quadboard was a RAM expansion card for the PC? > >Chad Fernandez >Michigan, USA > >Geoff Reed wrote: >> >> Does anyone have docs for this beastie? it's an apple-II on a card that >> goes into an XT... or does anyone have any interest in it? it's been >> sitting on my shelf for ~ 12 years now... > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon May 14 18:08:46 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:22 2005 Subject: se/30 Message-ID: <00bf01c0dccc$7df32620$47789a8d@ajp166> Thank your for a message that show up as 18pt type on my screen... SHALL I YELL AT YOU TOO? Allison -----Original Message----- From: Phil & Carole To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, May 14, 2001 6:39 AM Subject: se/30 > can someone give me some info on se/30's or System 6.0.3? >regards Tom, >reply to:tomhotdog@hotmail.com > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon May 14 18:15:40 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:22 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon. Message-ID: <00c101c0dccc$7ee91ee0$47789a8d@ajp166> Actually based on mine it's 3/4" dark mahogony plywood that has aged well over the years. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, May 14, 2001 2:46 PM Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon. >On Mon, 14 May 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: >> It would be simple to reconstruct the cover. It was made simply out of >> 3/8" plywood and then varnished a dark walnut-like color. > >I no longer have a Northstar, but wasn't it 1/2"? > >Besides, won't that trigger a few hundred posts arguing about "vintage" v >restoration/reproduction? > > >Have you bought plywood lately? They have reduced the thicknesses of >plywood! You can't get the right thickness to make an accurate copy! > >-- >Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 14 18:14:48 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:22 2005 Subject: Diablo 3200 In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at May 14, 1 01:48:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1669 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010515/064ef2c9/attachment.ksh From fmc at reanimators.org Mon May 14 18:04:01 2001 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:22 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon. In-Reply-To: "Fred Cisin's message of "Mon, 14 May 2001 10:39:46 -0700 (PDT)" References: Message-ID: <200105142304.f4EN41q55105@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > On Mon, 14 May 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > It would be simple to reconstruct the cover. It was made simply out of > > 3/8" plywood and then varnished a dark walnut-like color. > > I no longer have a Northstar, but wasn't it 1/2"? The presumably vintage cover from the Horizon that sits in my office (yes, Fred, the one I got from you) is about 7/16". For all I know that could be 3/8" or 1/2" in plywood inches. And yes, NorthStar did make the Horizon with a metal cover too. I think it's a metal cover on the same underlying frame. -Frank McConnell From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon May 14 18:23:07 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:22 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon. Message-ID: <011201c0dcce$98865cd0$47789a8d@ajp166> Feh, I have two, one stock and the other I uilt in 78 both look good but the '78 one has all of my mods from years of use. FYI: the mods stay! Allison -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Hellige To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, May 14, 2001 3:21 PM Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon. >On Monday, May 14, 2001, at 01:39 PM, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: >> Besides, won't that trigger a few hundred posts arguing about >> "vintage" v >> restoration/reproduction? > > But the central part of the machine would still be the original >Horizon so reproducing the outer panels to restore it's look shouldn't >be a problem. Regardless of how well you care for something, it is >eventually going to need some restoration work, that's just a part of >aging. A great many antique cars have gone through multiple restorations >at this point. > > Jeff From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon May 14 18:27:47 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:22 2005 Subject: nvram that 2716 pin compatible??? Message-ID: <011301c0dcce$98f460e0$47789a8d@ajp166> Any of the 2816 (eeprom or flashram) parts have the same pinout. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Curt Vendel To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, May 14, 2001 6:00 PM Subject: nvram that 2716 pin compatible??? >Anyone know of any nvram currently avail. or discontinued that would 2716 pin >compatible???? > > > >Curt > > > > From allain at panix.com Mon May 14 18:50:37 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:22 2005 Subject: Token Ring coax? References: <1022.535T650T84795optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <009c01c0dcd0$ad6416e0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Apollo Token Ring was over peer to peer coax. Each machine had two ports (ring, like HPIL, not Star) with pass through. There was a neat Dead Man feature where a bad node guaranteed to pass all signals through when inactive. I think there were maximum ring limits. 256? To build a large network you needed some king of switcher thingie. Next? John A. From terryc at woa.com.au Mon May 14 19:17:34 2001 From: terryc at woa.com.au (Terry Collins) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:23 2005 Subject: Token Ring coax? References: <1022.535T650T84795optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3B00759E.599B31D1@woa.com.au> Iggy Drougge wrote: > All TR which I've encountered has > been either TP or those frightening IBM connectors. The Apollo Domain token ring network that I encountered nine years ago was neither a TP or BNC type. It was a large white round plug (~1.5") that went into a make/break socket (insert and twist). The plug had four pads(?) being two connectors for the In and two for the Out. When we relocated one floor up, the company chose the cheapest quote - Yep, and despite how many time I explained it, the electrician just could not grasp the concept. It ended up with me virtually standing over him saying "that wire goes there on that plug" before we could get the six boxen communicating again. The only IBM coax I've seen were monstrous screw in plugs used for terminals to an IBM/360 (?) about 15 years ago and that electrician also asked me how they were wired. -- Terry Collins {:-)}}} Ph(02) 4627 2186 Fax(02) 4628 7861 email: terryc@woa.com.au www: http://www.woa.com.au WOA Computer Services "People without trees are like fish without clean water" From marvin at rain.org Mon May 14 19:30:50 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: Ahl - Basic Computer Games References: <01May14.155248edt.119045@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <3B003FDE.16F3A9EA@rain.org> Message-ID: <3B0078BA.253506CD@rain.org> Just to let everyone know, the book has been spoken for. I'll keep my eyes open for more copies. Marvin wrote: > > I am continuing to clean out stuff and found a duplicate copy of Basic > Computer Games by David Ahl. $5.00 including US mailing. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 14 19:44:26 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: Old chips for new project. In-Reply-To: Old chips for new project. (rhudson@cnonline.net) References: <200105142357.TAA08065@cnonline.net> Message-ID: <15104.31722.764465.761710@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 14, rhudson@cnonline.net wrote: > Are any of the 8 bit processors still available? I would like to scratch build > a z80 or 6502 or somthing board to hook up to my Z80s have found a second life of great popularity in the embedded systems community. They're readily available. Dunno about 6502s. -Dave McGuire From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon May 14 19:38:52 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: CompatiCards ? In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.1.20010514152504.00a0cc20@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010514203823.00a15c60@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 03:37 PM 5/14/01 -0700, Don wrote: >On Mon, 14 May 2001, joe wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > I have a CompatiCard I and I just picked up a CompatiCard IV. Will > > the CC 1 do anything that the IV won't? I'm wondering if I need to keep > > the CC-1. > >The CompatiCard IV is to be preferred, Joe. Easier to setup and handles >2.88mb drives amongst other things. > > > Can anyone send me the details about the CC-IV? I have the driver > > file and it's currently in a system and connected to two 1.44Mb 3.5" floppy > > drives and a 1.2Mb 5 1/4" drive and it seems to be working but I'd like to > > know how to configure it for other drives. > >I'll mail you a Xerox of the manual. Great! Thanks. Joe > - don > > > Joe > > > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon May 14 19:54:43 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon. In-Reply-To: <011201c0dcce$98865cd0$47789a8d@ajp166> References: <011201c0dcce$98865cd0$47789a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: >I have two, one stock and the other I uilt in 78 both look good but the >'78 one has all of my mods from years of use. FYI: the mods stay! And those mods, being common for that era and being done by the machine's original owner/builder, would just add to the machine's character and history. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon May 14 20:16:57 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: Old chips for new project. Message-ID: <013e01c0dcdd$4e4d3620$47789a8d@ajp166> From: rhudson@cnonline.net >Are any of the 8 bit processors still available? I would like to scratch build >a z80 or 6502 or somthing board to hook up to my Yes, you should not have much difficulty finding Z80, 8085, 6800 and 6502 (JDR catalog). >vt220 (ob classic??) Yes. >I have **no** hardware experince (well I can solder, but beyond that...) > >Hints?? Learn. ;) Get a few books and read anything and everything. Consider a kit or maybe a PIC. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon May 14 20:12:24 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon. Message-ID: <013d01c0dcdd$4dcce290$47789a8d@ajp166> From: Frank McConnell >> I no longer have a Northstar, but wasn't it 1/2"? > >The presumably vintage cover from the Horizon that sits in my office >(yes, Fred, the one I got from you) is about 7/16". For all I know >that could be 3/8" or 1/2" in plywood inches. No idea where you got that from. Mine MEASURES .740! I've seen home made ones that were any thing but right. >And yes, NorthStar did make the Horizon with a metal cover too. I >think it's a metal cover on the same underlying frame. The were the wood and the metal but not both unless they tried to comply with FCC (NOT!). Allison From chronic at nf.sympatico.ca Mon May 14 20:25:32 2001 From: chronic at nf.sympatico.ca (Lanny Cox) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: Old chips for new project. References: <200105142357.TAA08065@cnonline.net> Message-ID: <001e01c0dcdd$f149c280$88f8fea9@98box> I'm interested in the exact same thing you are at this point. I'm workin on a 6502 board, i hope to have it finished soon, i may put some schematics on my web page. For info about the 6502 and projects, you cannot beat http://www.6502.org, Chris Ward's 6502 board in particular. For 6502-related books, the best i have found have been Programming the 6502 and 6502 Applications, by Rodnay Zaks. Keep an eye out, they may show up on EPay if you're lucky. As for the processors themselves, I recycled my 6502 out of an old 1541 disk drive that didn't work, and i recently found a Z80 in a PC/AT keyboard i cannibalized (albeit for the LEDs, how ironic). Anyone else out there have any advice/suggestions??? -Lanny ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 10:02 PM Subject: Old chips for new project. > Hi all! > > It's not exactly classic, but... > > Are any of the 8 bit processors still available? I would like to scratch build > a z80 or 6502 or somthing board to hook up to my > > vt220 (ob classic??) > > I have **no** hardware experince (well I can solder, but beyond that...) > > Hints?? > > Thanks! > > > > > > --------------------------------------------- > This message was sent for FREE using Shot-mail. > http://www.shot-mail.com/ > > > From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon May 14 21:03:44 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: CompatiCards ? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010514152504.00a0cc20@mailhost.intellistar.ne t> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010514190313.01d937c0@mail.zipcon.net> If you see any of those floating around at a good price, yell :) i've been looking for one of those for a while :) At 03:45 PM 5/14/01 -0400, you wrote: >Hi, > > I have a CompatiCard I and I just picked up a CompatiCard IV. Will > the CC 1 do anything that the IV won't? I'm wondering if I need to keep > the CC-1. > > Can anyone send me the details about the CC-IV? I have the driver > file and it's currently in a system and connected to two 1.44Mb 3.5" > floppy drives and a 1.2Mb 5 1/4" drive and it seems to be working but I'd > like to know how to configure it for other drives. > > Joe > From bobyates at steward-net.com Mon May 14 20:54:02 2001 From: bobyates at steward-net.com (Bob Yates) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: Televideo TelePC info wanted Message-ID: <3B008C3A.735C46A6@steward-net.com> Anyone have information on one of these? I found a French web site and was able to figure out a little info but would like to know more. It does boot up and ask for a boot disk. -- A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. Source: Lazarus Long in Time Enough For Love by Robert Heinlein From chomko at greenbelt.com Mon May 14 21:37:49 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: VCF East 1.0 - July 28/29 in Marlborough, Massachusetts! References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E587990A@MAIL10> Message-ID: <3B00967D.6D630249@greenbelt.com> "Cini, Richard" wrote: > Who's going to VCF East?? I was toying around with going and wanted to see > who from the list would be there. > Looks like I'll be there! Bringing the SWTPC 6800 to boot! A few extra parts as well! Eric > > Rich > > -----Original Message----- > From: Vintage Computer Festival [mailto:vcf@siconic.com] > Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 12:46 AM > To: Classic Computers Mailing List > Subject: VCF East 1.0 - July 28/29 in Marlborough, Massachusetts! > > It's finally official! > > VCF East 1.0 > July 28-29, 2001 > 10am to 5pm daily > Best Western Royal Plaza Hotel and Trade Center > Marlborough, Massachusetts > > Admission > > $10 daily at the door > > Speakers > > Want to give a talk at VCF East 1.0? E-mail me at . > > Exhibitors > > Sign-up your exhibit at http://www.vintage.org/2001/east/exhibit.php3 > > Vendors > > Want to sell vintage computer stuff at VCF East 1.0? Contact me at > . > > More info to come soon, including updated VCF East 1.0 web pages with > speaker schedule, exhibits and more! > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org From chomko at greenbelt.com Mon May 14 21:53:57 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On References: <4693.535T2100T525569optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3B009A45.8F89494C@greenbelt.com> Iggy Drougge wrote: > Eric Chomko skrev: > > >Iggy Drougge wrote: > > >> Eric Chomko skrev: > >> > >> >Iggy Drougge wrote: > >> > >> >> Eric Chomko skrev: > >> >> > >> >> >Iggy Drougge wrote: > >> >> > >> >> >> Sellam Ismail skrev: > >> >> >> > >> >> >> >On 12 May 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Da Vinci's greatness as an artist stemmed IOW from his ability to > >> >> >> >> produce great works of art. A work of art is a work of art even if > >> >> >> >> mass-produced, the last century has taught us as much. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> >Abstractly, yes. The original is a tangible product of the man, > >> >> >> >hence it's value relative to copies. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Are copies less tangible? > >> >> > >> >> >No, more tangible, and that is the point! When speaking of rarity and > >> >> >value one deals with supply and demand. The demand for copies of > >> >> >originals can always met, therefore the price is low. The demand for a > >> >> >unique item will drive the price of the item up as long as more than > >> >> >one person wants it. > >> >> > >> >> My point is that Mona Lisa isn't rare since there are reproductions. > >> >> Anyone who'd pay millions more for the "original" is an utter fool. > >> > >> >There are many fools based upon your assessment. Did you know that Gates > >> >purchased > >> >a painting for $30million a few years ago? Is he an utter fool? This is > >> >not directly related to the arguement but is quite on-topic for the group > >> >and this particular thread. > >> > >> Yes, he is. > >> > >> >Okay, two points... > >> > >> >Gates is worth what, $50billion? Half that? Maybe more or less? Let's use > >> >$30billion to > >> >make a point. Ratio $30million to $30billion is 1 to 1000. If someone has > >> >a net worth of > >> >$300K, then the 1 to 1000 ratio puts their expeniture at $300. Would you > >> >spend > >> >$300 > >> >for a "rare" computer (forget panitings for the moment)? Do you see the > >> >point? To Gates spending $30million is not unlike a $300 lay out for us > >> >poor slobs. Its obscene I know, but it is what it is. The worst part is > >> >that I'd be hard pressed to show I got $300K in personal wealth. :( > >> > >> I really doubt I would, but of course I understand that rare items cost > >> more, it's some capitalist principle. OTOH, if there were a replica > >> available at a lesser price, I would buy that one. > > >But would you not feel somewhat cheated if the replica was passed off as an > >original? > > Haven't I stated time and again that there is no difference? The question is > why anyone would even bother to state whether it is original or not. > You're flat wrong! Agree to disagree. I wont't call you a socialist if you won't call me a capitalist. But if you inisist, then I'll call you wrong. > > >Honest business, despite what you make think of the system overall, is at > >least honest. Confusing capitalism with deception is a flaw that I have noted > >with some folks that come from Europe. I see a clear difference. > > I agree, one should be honest. > Are you a socialist? Its no crime. I have been called it many times. I wear it with a badge of honor. But that comes from radical rightests within my own country. I don't get you as being a radical leftist. > > >> >The second point is, suppose an organization like a museum or foundation > >> >raise enough money to make a purchase like one for a rare painting, is > >> >that such a bad thing? They put it on display for the public to see. Is > >> >this a ship of fools in your book? > >> > >> Well, at least then it doesn't end up in Bill Gates' home, but they could > >> just as well settle for a replica IMO. Many museums do, in fact. > > >But most folks want to see the orginal in a museum. > > But then again, they usually wouldn't be able to tell the difference. > That's not the point! A replica where the original is advertised is deception. > > >> >> >By your own arguement, no one here should collect an old computer based > >> >> >upon functionality, as I can buy a new one than can out perform the old > >> >> >ones. Therefore, no one should bother with older ones regardless of > >> >> >model or type. > >> >> > >> >> In what way can any computer outperform another? Every computer is > >> >> unique in its own sense, isn't that why we collect several? > >> > >> >Agreed. So why would a replica of a painting be any different than the > >> >replica of a computer? > >> > >> Agreed. A computer replica is equal to the original, a replica of a > >> painting is equal to the original. > > >In your world... > > Granted. > Well said... > > >Just don't expect others to believe it. And as I have said often before in > >other posting forums, it may have to be a case where we simply must have to > >agree to disagree. > > I think so, too. > > >> >> We don't use computers to run benchmarks. At least not most of the time. > >> > >> >True, but I think I missed the point of that. > >> > >> If that were all we used computers for, we would all just run what's cheap > >> and fast, going by Sellam's argument. But then all computers (except for > >> IBM PC clones) have something which is unique, something which made them > >> sell in the first place. > > >But the term vintage or collectible brings on a whole new meaning. > > What meaning? > Value and worth. Both that can be measured with $$$$ (dollars). Call me a capitalistic pig, but you'll only be giving me fodder for my next newsgroup! Eric > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > optimus@dec:foo$ %blow > bash: fg: %blow: no such job From chomko at greenbelt.com Mon May 14 21:57:10 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon. References: <011201c0dcce$98865cd0$47789a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3B009B05.43CC8020@greenbelt.com> Jeff Hellige wrote: > >I have two, one stock and the other I uilt in 78 both look good but the > >'78 one has all of my mods from years of use. FYI: the mods stay! > > And those mods, being common for that era and being done by > the machine's original owner/builder, would just add to the machine's > character and history. > As long as they were original and documented. Eric > > Jeff > -- > Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon May 14 22:00:17 2001 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: Seeking a military switch - MS25089-4AR Message-ID: <20010515030017.36899.qmail@web9503.mail.yahoo.com> A friend gave me a flight control grip from, my research shows, an F-4. It is, in any case, the real deal - A "SWITCH ASSY B-8-A" It's the stick with the hat control on the back, a single trigger and three red push buttons at various locations down the left side. It's been copied in numerous variations for military-style PC joysticks One of the buttons has the top sheared off on mine. Everthing else seems to be fine. I would like to adapt this to a modern joystick for a flight sim. I need a replacement switch. There are very few web pages that reference the part number, MS25089. I have contacted a couple of vendors, but it's clear from reading their pages that they deal in commercial/ military quantities. Does anyone out there have a favorite military surplus place that would sell a single switch. I wouldn't mind a spare or two if they are under a certain amount (few bucks). Thanks, -ethan ===== Visit "The Seventh Continent" http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From jpero at sympatico.ca Mon May 14 18:04:46 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: <3B009A45.8F89494C@greenbelt.com> Message-ID: <20010515030216.YLBX16174.tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 22:53:57 -0400 > From: Eric Chomko > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > Iggy Drougge wrote: > > > Eric Chomko skrev: BIG snip! > > > > >> >> >By your own arguement, no one here should collect an old computer based > > >> >> >upon functionality, as I can buy a new one than can out perform the old > > >> >> >ones. Therefore, no one should bother with older ones regardless of > > >> >> >model or type. > > >> >> > > >> >> In what way can any computer outperform another? Every computer is > > >> >> unique in its own sense, isn't that why we collect several? > > >> > > >> >Agreed. So why would a replica of a painting be any different than the > > >> >replica of a computer? > > >> > > >> Agreed. A computer replica is equal to the original, a replica of a > > >> painting is equal to the original. > > > > >In your world... > > > > Granted. > > > > Well said... > > > Value and worth. Both that can be measured with $$$$ (dollars). Call me a > capitalistic pig, but you'll only be giving me fodder for my next newsgroup! > > Eric > > > > > > -- > > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > > > optimus@dec:foo$ %blow > > bash: fg: %blow: no such job > Breaking into hubbub for a moment... Please, have a care to trim your replies before editing this got very long to scroll and mind those who pay per minute modem users. Back to your regular emails. Cheers, Wizard From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon May 14 22:08:56 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon. Message-ID: <015301c0dcec$697aec30$47789a8d@ajp166> From: Jeff Hellige >>I have two, one stock and the other I uilt in 78 both look good but the >>'78 one has all of my mods from years of use. FYI: the mods stay! > > And those mods, being common for that era and being done by >the machine's original owner/builder, would just add to the machine's >character and history. Since the history of that one machine is entirely mine from day one I can even vouch for the reasons behind the mods. Allison From jpero at sympatico.ca Mon May 14 18:39:13 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: destinking the computers. In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010514083649.007fa330@yellow.ucdavis.edu> References: <200105140945.EAA87883@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <20010515033643.EIWI28559.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Cigerette stink is worst I know but this one I'm bit lucky doesn't stink like one EXCEPT that Mac II has collected so much regular dust in it's life then pushed to storage is bad location where there's humidty is high for long time. That's before I rescued that Mac II from goodwill for $5. Now it stank of must and dust. What is your process to destink that Mac II? Scubbing is part solution but this case is full of cravities and crannies, lot of hidden carvities under that tin sheet fastened in place by melted mushroomed plastic pins. Best way I think is soak it in some kind of chemical. including that PSU minus fan. The worst of that stink is in PSU and whole case. I'll have to take apart that PSU but the case is another matter. Hey, it's 1987 machine so classiccomp applies! :-) What's the solutions to attack this? Bleach dip, ionized chamber (for smoke damage repair) etc? Comments please and where to find some de-stink services locally? Cheers, Wizard From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon May 14 23:13:54 2001 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: destinking the computers. In-Reply-To: <20010515033643.EIWI28559.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> from "jpero@sympatico.ca" at May 14, 2001 11:39:13 PM Message-ID: <200105150413.WAA06743@calico.litterbox.com> In my experience musty smells like something is growing in something else can be dealt with with rite guard. No kidding, it's mostly alcohol. Mind you I haven't tried this with electronics, this was how I dealt with the heater in my VW smelling like mildew after the car got filled with water in a flood. But a deoderant like riteguard is, after all, an anti-bacterial with a fragrence. Mind that you don't get the antipersperant kind - aluminum salts aren't going to help anything and I suspect they'll conduct... > What's the solutions to attack this? Bleach dip, ionized chamber > (for smoke damage repair) etc? Comments please and where to > find some de-stink services locally? -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From jpero at sympatico.ca Mon May 14 19:32:08 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: destinking the computers. In-Reply-To: <200105150413.WAA06743@calico.litterbox.com> References: <20010515033643.EIWI28559.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> from "jpero@sympatico.ca" at May 14, 2001 11:39:13 PM Message-ID: <20010515042938.DVRO7009.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > From: Jim Strickland > Subject: Re: destinking the computers. > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 22:13:54 -0600 (MDT) > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > In my experience musty smells like something is growing in something else > can be dealt with with rite guard. No kidding, it's mostly alcohol. Mind you > I haven't tried this with electronics, this was how I dealt with the heater > in my VW smelling like mildew after the car got filled with water in a flood. > But a deoderant like riteguard is, after all, an anti-bacterial with a fragrence. > Mind that you don't get the antipersperant kind - aluminum salts aren't going > to help anything and I suspect they'll conduct... Alcohol do very little to dislodge junk and only kills bugs and mildew but the remains stays there and still smell. Even the windex help very little it's consumer grade. Very weak. What I'm looking for is real thing that oxidizes the stink and get all the dirt and junk floating out of hidden cravities with a flush. 10 years ago I used freon spray once on several cards out of a one computer before putting that computer into friend's home was spray it down with freon stuff. Amazing stuff, icky stuff simply slides off leaving shiny boards like new, too bad it's not good to hole and it's banned. That one would do *perfectly* like mine. Cheers, Wizard From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 14 23:36:14 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: destinking the computers. In-Reply-To: Re: destinking the computers. (jpero@sympatico.ca) References: <20010515033643.EIWI28559.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> <20010515042938.DVRO7009.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <15104.45630.944575.517250@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 15, jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > Alcohol do very little to dislodge junk and only kills bugs and > mildew but the remains stays there and still smell. > Even the windex help very little it's consumer grade. Very weak. > > What I'm looking for is real thing that oxidizes the stink and get > all the dirt and junk floating out of hidden cravities with a flush. Perhaps something like Alconox? I've seen that stuff do amazing things. -Dave McGuire From donm at cts.com Mon May 14 23:39:38 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 14 May 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Mon, 14 May 2001, Don Maslin wrote: > > > the wood case on it... > > If you know someone with a saw, it wouldn't be all that difficult to > > build one. It is just three pieces of wood - a top and two sides. > > But it wouldn't be "original" Could be, Fred. But with the wood thickness being reported from 3/8" to 3/4", how are you going to prove it? It might not even be a replica! - don From foo at siconic.com Mon May 14 22:46:18 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: Vintageness ( was Re: Serious Request For Moderation (On In-Reply-To: <4693.535T2100T525569optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 15 May 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > >But would you not feel somewhat cheated if the replica was passed off as an > >original? > > Haven't I stated time and again that there is no difference? The > question is why anyone would even bother to state whether it is > original or not. Ignacious, sorry, but you're completely out of touch with reality. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From donm at cts.com Mon May 14 23:45:49 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: Old chips for new project. In-Reply-To: <200105142357.TAA08065@cnonline.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 May 101 rhudson@cnonline.net wrote: > Hi all! > > It's not exactly classic, but... > > Are any of the 8 bit processors still available? I would like to scratch build > a z80 or 6502 or somthing board to hook up to my > > vt220 (ob classic??) > > I have **no** hardware experince (well I can solder, but beyond that...) > > Hints?? > > Thanks! > Check www.bgmicro.com, www.jdr.com, etc. They should be amongst your best sources. - don > > --------------------------------------------- > This message was sent for FREE using Shot-mail. > http://www.shot-mail.com/ > > > From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Tue May 15 00:01:30 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: Old chips for new project. In-Reply-To: <15104.31722.764465.761710@phaduka.neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "May 14, 1 08:44:26 pm" Message-ID: <200105150501.WAA12866@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Z80s have found a second life of great popularity in the embedded > systems community. They're readily available. Dunno about 6502s. Of course they're still available! :-) http://www.wdesignc.com/ Nowadays they're all CMOS cores (sigh, for the good old days of NMOS and HMOS :-). You can get them as PLCC or DIP. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- TRUE HEADLINE: Include Your Children When Baking Cookies ------------------- From foo at siconic.com Mon May 14 23:18:48 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: VCF East 1.0 - July 28/29 in Marlborough, Massachusetts! In-Reply-To: <3B00967D.6D630249@greenbelt.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 May 2001, Eric Chomko wrote: > Bringing the SWTPC 6800 to boot! A few extra parts as well! Great! Please fill out the exhibit form if you plan to exhibit: http://www.vintage.org/2001/east/exhibit.php3 Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Mon May 14 23:22:00 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: Diablo 3200 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 15 May 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > I don't suppose anyone knows anything about a machine called the Diablo > 3000? It may be related to this one. > > Physically, it's a large desktop case with a 12" mono CRT on the left > side of the front panel and 2 vertically mounted 8" drives on the right. > The separate keyboard is wired into the unit with a cable that can't be > unplugged at either end without dismantling the machine somewhat. On the > back of the main unit is a DB25 connector that I assumed was an RS232 > port for a daisywheel printer (probably a Diablo 630 or similar). > > >From what I remmeber of the insides, the drives and monitor are what > you'd expect. There's a little cardcage behind the monitor that contains > 4 (IIRC) boards. One of them has an 8085 CPU on it, another was RAM, and > another was a disk controller (I think there was an 8039 microcontroller > on this one -- I don't remember a standard FDC chip). The power supply > was in the base of the machine under all that lot. I don't really > remember any more details. It would seem to be later than the 3200 since it uses an 8085. But no, never heard of it. Interesting though! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 14 23:25:25 2001 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: Diablo 3200 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 14 May 2001, George Leo Rachor Jr. wrote: > Stay of execution on this Diablo 3200..... > > We have bought a bit of time as my wife has convinced them not to hack it > up until I get to see this critter. Cool! > Obviously we have no software for the machine and I'm assuming you don't > either. Actually, I do. I got the original OS disks as well as a bunch of floppies with various bits of accounting type software and useless data. > The computer recycler has agreed not to remove the original components > until it can be determined if the box is usuable in some rudimentry > function as is. (They were going to gut the original components and > replace the guts with something more modern). Silly. Were they planning to use the same CRT and keyboard? I don't know how. If all they wanted was a nice desk for a computer then maybe they should go to Office Depot? > Now the challenge is to find software that might boot the machine up. I can make copies for you. Mine supposedly boots. Here is a picture of mine. http://www.siconic.com/computers/Diablo%203200.jpg Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue May 15 00:56:37 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: microprocessors. In-Reply-To: References: <200105142357.TAA08065@cnonline.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010514225501.0204f540@mail.zipcon.net> if anyone has need, I have come across a handful of 8088's, up through 12 Mhz and also a couple NEC V-20's. I also have a 8087-3 if anyone has need for it. i'm just looking for shipping on these. if you have a use for them, email me, I don't right now... From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 15 00:38:02 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: gimpy (not broken) PSU In-Reply-To: References: from "Mike Ford" at May 14, 1 02:36:32 am Message-ID: >> So who doesn't have a pile of old dead computers to scrap for working parts? > >Me.... > >I have a pile of old dead computers to _repair_ :-) > >-tony If you don't have enough to scrap a few, you just don't have enough old computers. I have enough. ;) From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 15 03:23:50 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: destinking the computers. In-Reply-To: <20010515033643.EIWI28559.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> References: <3.0.5.32.20010514083649.007fa330@yellow.ucdavis.edu> <200105140945.EAA87883@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: >What's the solutions to attack this? Bleach dip, ionized chamber >(for smoke damage repair) etc? Comments please and where to >find some de-stink services locally? Compressed air for the bulk of the unit, soap and water on most of the case, and the stinker is typically the power supply which needs to be torn down and chemically cleaned. From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Tue May 15 06:37:53 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: destinking the computers. References: <200105140945.EAA87883@opal.tseinc.com> <20010515033643.EIWI28559.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <000f01c0dd33$7bb4f020$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 7:39 PM Subject: destinking the computers. > > Cigerette stink is worst I know but this one I'm bit lucky doesn't > stink like one EXCEPT that Mac II has collected so much regular dust > in it's life then pushed to storage is bad location where there's > humidty is high for long time. That's before I rescued that Mac II > from goodwill for $5. I picked up a machine from a restaurant that instead of having the dust bunnies inside had greasy blobs. It stunk so bad I had to move it to the garage until I had the time to strip it down and give it a washing in soap and water. I've also had a machine that had clumping cat litter spilled into it. The shop vac took care of that problem. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue May 15 06:45:06 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: 74xx orgin Message-ID: <3B0132E2.27102.624C7476@localhost> When where the first 74xx ICs released / designed ? Especialy when where complex chips like 744x, 748x or 74181 first mentioned/available ? This may be a stuipd question, but I couldn't find any information ... so all I have is my personal guess (~1970) and the oldesd TTL book Philip Belben could find (1972). Anyone more informed ? Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From liste at artware.qc.ca Tue May 15 06:43:53 2001 From: liste at artware.qc.ca (liste@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: VAX bar Message-ID: http://toyvax.tucson.az.us/~vance/vaxbar.html -Philip From pdp11 at bellsouth.net Tue May 15 07:31:34 2001 From: pdp11 at bellsouth.net (Doug Carman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: 74xx orgin References: <3B0132E2.27102.624C7476@localhost> Message-ID: <3B0121A6.B482F81A@bellsouth.net> Hans Franke wrote: > > When where the first 74xx ICs released / designed ? > Especialy when where complex chips like 744x, 748x or > 74181 first mentioned/available ? > > This may be a stuipd question, but I couldn't find any > information ... so all I have is my personal guess (~1970) > and the oldesd TTL book Philip Belben could find (1972). > > Anyone more informed ? > > Gruss > H. > > -- > VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen > http://www.vcfe.org/ Hello Hans! DEC introduced their M-series modules that used TTL IC's in 1967. So, I would say they must have been around prior to that in order for DEC to have designed the modules around them. -- Doug Carman pdp11@bellsouth.net From allain at panix.com Tue May 15 07:41:04 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: destinking the computers. References: <200105140945.EAA87883@opal.tseinc.com> <20010515033643.EIWI28559.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> <000f01c0dd33$7bb4f020$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <003201c0dd3c$4eee7300$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> I use partial disassembly, vacuuming, and spot wash. The partial disassembly is 99% just take the cover off and wash it. The worst smelling stuff is usually just the dust (in extreme cases mouse nesting) which is easily removed with the vacuum. (If it really is nesting then don't breathe it and Wash your hands frequently. P.S.This has never been in computer equipment) I might do spot dusting with a Q-tip wetted with Window cleaner, mostly just to lift the dust. Don't be too afraid to take it apart, you get to learn how its constructed, that's a fun part. Also don't give up on the spray dusters. Here in the U.S. they've just mutated to a less Freonic form. http://www.falconsafety.com/dustoff/wherebuy/consume.html John A. From curt at atari-history.com Tue May 15 07:45:22 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: VAX bar References: Message-ID: <3B0124E2.D919C492@atari-history.com> A truly beautiful work of insanity.... two thumbs up! Curt liste@artware.qc.ca wrote: > http://toyvax.tucson.az.us/~vance/vaxbar.html > > -Philip From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue May 15 07:47:51 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: Televideo TelePC info wanted In-Reply-To: <3B008C3A.735C46A6@steward-net.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010515084417.009f40e0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Do you have a model number? Does it use MS-DOS, CPM or what? I have a Televideo PC that looks very similar to a Televideo 970 terminal The monitor on it is hung in a yoke the same way that the monitor is on a 970. It runs MS_DOS. I have the disks and (I think) some of the manuals for it. I also have some manuals for a Televideo CPM system somewhere. Joe At 08:54 PM 5/14/01 -0500, you wrote: >Anyone have information on one of these? I found a French web site and >was able to figure out a little info but would like to know more. > >It does boot up and ask for a boot disk. > >-- >A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, >butcher a hog, conn a >ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, >set a bone, >comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve >equations, >analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty >meal, fight >efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. > >Source: Lazarus Long in Time Enough For Love >by Robert Heinlein From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue May 15 07:56:23 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp me) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon. Message-ID: <381590176.989931383649.JavaMail.root@web625-wrb.mail.com> First rule of engineering if it isn't written down it never happend. That machine has two spiral bound notbooks and several inches of printouts... just in case I had to replace it. Allison ------Original Message------ From: Eric Chomko To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Sent: May 15, 2001 2:57:10 AM GMT Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon. Jeff Hellige wrote: > >I have two, one stock and the other I uilt in 78 both look good but the > >'78 one has all of my mods from years of use. FYI: the mods stay! > > And those mods, being common for that era and being done by > the machine's original owner/builder, would just add to the machine's > character and history. > As long as they were original and documented. Eric > > Jeff > -- > Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue May 15 07:53:02 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: destinking the computers. In-Reply-To: <20010515033643.EIWI28559.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> References: <3.0.5.32.20010514083649.007fa330@yellow.ucdavis.edu> <200105140945.EAA87883@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010515084935.00a13560@mailhost.intellistar.net> I've had good luck using Pursue to kill odors. Pursue is sold by Amway and it comes in a spray can. In general, it works better than anything else that I've tried. I haven't tried it on a computer so be carefull. It may attack plastic. You may want to put some on a rag or something and then close it and the puter up in a large box for a day or two to give it time to penetrate. A small fan in the box would probably help. Let us know how it works. Joe At 11:39 PM 5/14/01 +0000, you wrote: >Cigerette stink is worst I know but this one I'm bit lucky doesn't >stink like one EXCEPT that Mac II has collected so much regular dust >in it's life then pushed to storage is bad location where there's >humidty is high for long time. That's before I rescued that Mac II >from goodwill for $5. > >Now it stank of must and dust. What is your process to destink that >Mac II? Scubbing is part solution but this case is full of >cravities and crannies, lot of hidden carvities under that tin sheet >fastened in place by melted mushroomed plastic pins. Best way I >think is soak it in some kind of chemical. including that PSU minus >fan. > >The worst of that stink is in PSU and whole case. I'll have to take >apart that PSU but the case is another matter. > >Hey, it's 1987 machine so classiccomp applies! :-) > >What's the solutions to attack this? Bleach dip, ionized chamber >(for smoke damage repair) etc? Comments please and where to >find some de-stink services locally? > >Cheers, > >Wizard From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue May 15 07:59:18 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: destinking the computers. In-Reply-To: <20010515042938.DVRO7009.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> References: <200105150413.WAA06743@calico.litterbox.com> <20010515033643.EIWI28559.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010515085438.00a16b20@mailhost.intellistar.net> I wonder if you could use ozone to oxidize the crud in it? Perhaps you can set the open case on top of a laser printer or something else that generates ozone. Ozone oxidizes the same way that chlorine does but it doesn't bleach things out or smell the way that chlorine does. As for cleaning the debris out, I would take the case to one of the high powered spray car washes. It may take a while to dry all the water out of all the cracks and crevices afterwards! A vaccuum oven is great for drying things like that. Joe At 12:32 AM 5/15/01 +0000, you wrote: > > From: Jim Strickland > > Subject: Re: destinking the computers. > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 22:13:54 -0600 (MDT) > > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > In my experience musty smells like something is growing in something else > > can be dealt with with rite guard. No kidding, it's mostly > alcohol. Mind you > > I haven't tried this with electronics, this was how I dealt with the heater > > in my VW smelling like mildew after the car got filled with water in a > flood. > > But a deoderant like riteguard is, after all, an anti-bacterial with a > fragrence. > > Mind that you don't get the antipersperant kind - aluminum salts aren't > going > > to help anything and I suspect they'll conduct... > >Alcohol do very little to dislodge junk and only kills bugs and >mildew but the remains stays there and still smell. >Even the windex help very little it's consumer grade. Very weak. > >What I'm looking for is real thing that oxidizes the stink and get >all the dirt and junk floating out of hidden cravities with a flush. > >10 years ago I used freon spray once on several cards out of a one >computer before putting that computer into friend's home was spray it >down with freon stuff. Amazing stuff, icky stuff simply slides off >leaving shiny boards like new, too bad it's not good to hole and it's >banned. > >That one would do *perfectly* like mine. > >Cheers, > >Wizard From rhblake at bigfoot.com Tue May 15 08:09:20 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: destinking the computers. In-Reply-To: <20010515033643.EIWI28559.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: Plain rubbing alcohol is excellent for removal of the gung of both mildewed or tar/nicotined equipment and it's cheap. Walmart and other chains carry quart bottles, I buy them at a local pharmacy by the case at a 5% markoff). Use it liberally but with the unit powered down, since you still have to be concerned with shock/short since there's 30% water in it. Don't buy the useless alcohol that's less than 70%, it doesn't work well at all. It also freshens the smell of machines once the tar/nicotine or mildew/mold is gone. If you have vents, circuit boards, etc you can get a good horsehair or parts cleaning brush soaked with it and scrub them (try first on an area to insure it won't hurt anything) and that removes stuck gunk off the components. If you're cleaning a cdrom that was used in a smoking area, use lens tissue (photo grade) to final polish the laser so that it has all of the stuff off and the alcohol doesn't leave a streak/haze on the lens. I continually clean cd players for people's stereos as a side job and they are an easy fix. This is a heavy tobacco use area (Ky, why of course) and also very moist/prone to mold/mildew. I get both mildewed/musty items and tar/nicotined items all of the time - and the contaminent is usually the cause for the item's failure. Denatured alcohol can be used many times too but be careful of how it reacts as it's not water based and can remove stickers, decals, etc. I also use green Scotch scrub pads many times with isopropyl to scrub the units or use a vegetable/nail brush with iso to scrub the outer cabinets that have the mottled finish. They generally come out looking near new, if not like new. 409 also works well on outer cabinets but isn't much on certain stains such as tar/nic or toner stains. Citrus cleaners are good too but act like a solvent on many articles, dependant on the cleaner and the item. Some citrus cleaners are made from the oils in citrus peels rather than from the citrus juice and the oils are in the same category as toluene or lacquer thinner on many plastics (isn't lacquer thinner made from a fruit product?) > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of jpero@sympatico.ca > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 6:39 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: destinking the computers. > > > > Cigerette stink is worst I know but this one I'm bit lucky doesn't > stink like one EXCEPT that Mac II has collected so much regular dust > in it's life then pushed to storage is bad location where there's > humidty is high for long time. That's before I rescued that Mac II > from goodwill for $5. > > Now it stank of must and dust. What is your process to destink that > Mac II? Scubbing is part solution but this case is full of > cravities and crannies, lot of hidden carvities under that tin sheet > fastened in place by melted mushroomed plastic pins. Best way I > think is soak it in some kind of chemical. including that PSU minus > fan. > > The worst of that stink is in PSU and whole case. I'll have to take > apart that PSU but the case is another matter. > > Hey, it's 1987 machine so classiccomp applies! :-) > > What's the solutions to attack this? Bleach dip, ionized chamber > (for smoke damage repair) etc? Comments please and where to > find some de-stink services locally? > > Cheers, > > Wizard From rhblake at bigfoot.com Tue May 15 08:09:22 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: destinking the computers. In-Reply-To: <000f01c0dd33$7bb4f020$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: In addition you pretty much have to experiment in areas not visible with different things. If I had a fire in my shop the whole block would likely go up with the varying array of chemicals and solvents I have. When I have a unit that will be stored and needs to stay dry, bug free and mold free I take 6 or 8 moth balls (paradichlorobenzine) in a cotton cloth and set that inside the unit. Mice don't like it, bugs don't like it, it keeps it dry like camphor does with tool storage, and it makes the unit smell a great deal better. Of course it's not a quick or permanent cure to smells from previous mold/tobacco contamination but it works to prevent things from extended storage. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Mike Kenzie > Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 6:38 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: destinking the computers. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 7:39 PM > Subject: destinking the computers. > > > > > > Cigerette stink is worst I know but this one I'm bit lucky > doesn't > > stink like one EXCEPT that Mac II has collected so much > regular dust > > in it's life then pushed to storage is bad location where > there's > > humidty is high for long time. That's before I rescued > that Mac II > > from goodwill for $5. > > I picked up a machine from a restaurant that instead of > having the dust bunnies inside had greasy blobs. It stunk > so bad I had to move it to the garage until I had the time > to strip it down and give it a washing in soap and water. > > I've also had a machine that had clumping cat litter spilled > into it. The shop vac took care of that problem. > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue May 15 08:11:39 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: CompatiCards ? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010514190313.01d937c0@mail.zipcon.net> References: <5.1.0.14.1.20010514152504.00a0cc20@mailhost.intellistar.ne t> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010515090524.009f4370@mailhost.intellistar.net> Geoff, I got lucky on these two. I hang around several scrap places (scrap,not surplus!) and I look at the back of ALL of the old computers for anything with odd connectors. That's how I spotted these two. FWIW I spent half the day Saturday opening up and examining 106 old PCs. Besides the one CompatiCard IV, I found seven TV tuner cards, seven video capture cards and one HP-IB contoller. I also got a S^%* load of 4 Mb 30 pin SIMMs. Joe At 07:03 PM 5/14/01 -0700, you wrote: >If you see any of those floating around at a good price, yell :) i've >been looking for one of those for a while :) > >At 03:45 PM 5/14/01 -0400, you wrote: >>Hi, >> >> I have a CompatiCard I and I just picked up a CompatiCard IV. Will >> the CC 1 do anything that the IV won't? I'm wondering if I need to keep >> the CC-1. >> >> Can anyone send me the details about the CC-IV? I have the driver >> file and it's currently in a system and connected to two 1.44Mb 3.5" >> floppy drives and a 1.2Mb 5 1/4" drive and it seems to be working but >> I'd like to know how to configure it for other drives. >> >> Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue May 15 08:13:47 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:30 2005 Subject: Old chips for new project. In-Reply-To: <001e01c0dcdd$f149c280$88f8fea9@98box> References: <200105142357.TAA08065@cnonline.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010515091213.00a19460@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 10:55 PM 5/14/01 -02-30, Lanny wrote: >I'm interested in the exact same thing you are at this point. I'm workin on >a 6502 board, i hope to have it finished soon, i may put some schematics on >my web page. For info about the 6502 and projects, you cannot beat >http://www.6502.org, Chris Ward's 6502 board in particular. For 6502-related >books, the best i have found have been Programming the 6502 and 6502 >Applications, by Rodnay Zaks. Keep an eye out, they may show up on EPay if >you're lucky. As for the processors themselves, I recycled my 6502 out of an >old 1541 disk drive that didn't work, and i recently found a Z80 in a PC/AT >keyboard i cannibalized (albeit for the LEDs, how ironic). Anyone else out >there have any advice/suggestions??? Yeah, check with www.abebooks.com or www.book-finders.com and see if you can find the book there. They often have books when you wnat them and for a cheaper price than E-OverPay. Joe >-Lanny > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 10:02 PM >Subject: Old chips for new project. > > > > Hi all! > > > > It's not exactly classic, but... > > > > Are any of the 8 bit processors still available? I would like to scratch >build > > a z80 or 6502 or somthing board to hook up to my > > > > vt220 (ob classic??) > > > > I have **no** hardware experince (well I can solder, but beyond that...) > > > > Hints?? > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------- > > This message was sent for FREE using Shot-mail. > > http://www.shot-mail.com/ > > > > > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue May 15 08:16:48 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: 64180 Re: Old chips for new project. In-Reply-To: <013e01c0dcdd$4e4d3620$47789a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010515091410.00a1c210@mailhost.intellistar.net> You could build one of Steve Ciarcia's (sp?) SB-180s. They're great machines. I have big pile of Hitachi 64180 CPUs if anyone needs any. Just pay the postage. Joe At 09:16 PM 5/14/01 -0400, you wrote: >From: rhudson@cnonline.net > >Are any of the 8 bit processors still available? I would like to scratch >build > >a z80 or 6502 or somthing board to hook up to my > > >Yes, you should not have much difficulty finding Z80, 8085, 6800 and >6502 (JDR catalog). > > >vt220 (ob classic??) > > >Yes. > > >I have **no** hardware experince (well I can solder, but beyond that...) > > > > >Hints?? > > >Learn. ;) Get a few books and read anything and everything. > >Consider a kit or maybe a PIC. > >Allison From rhblake at bigfoot.com Tue May 15 08:39:00 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: destinking the computers. In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010515084935.00a13560@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: The bad thing with Amway is once you're on their customer list you're destined for life to be bugged by them. The few Amway products I've purchased were added to someone else's purchase and I repaid them when delivered, keeping my name totally off the list. Many of their products work well but you pay a premium for them. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of joe > Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 7:53 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: destinking the computers. > > > I've had good luck using Pursue to kill odors. Pursue is sold by > Amway and it comes in a spray can. In general, it works better than > anything else that I've tried. I haven't tried it on a computer so be > carefull. It may attack plastic. You may want to put some on a rag or > something and then close it and the puter up in a large box for a day or > two to give it time to penetrate. A small fan in the box would probably > help. Let us know how it works. > > Joe > At 11:39 PM 5/14/01 +0000, you wrote: > > >Cigerette stink is worst I know but this one I'm bit lucky doesn't > >stink like one EXCEPT that Mac II has collected so much regular dust > >in it's life then pushed to storage is bad location where there's > >humidty is high for long time. That's before I rescued that Mac II > >from goodwill for $5. > > > >Now it stank of must and dust. What is your process to destink that > >Mac II? Scubbing is part solution but this case is full of > >cravities and crannies, lot of hidden carvities under that tin sheet > >fastened in place by melted mushroomed plastic pins. Best way I > >think is soak it in some kind of chemical. including that PSU minus > >fan. > > > >The worst of that stink is in PSU and whole case. I'll have to take > >apart that PSU but the case is another matter. > > > >Hey, it's 1987 machine so classiccomp applies! :-) > > > >What's the solutions to attack this? Bleach dip, ionized chamber > >(for smoke damage repair) etc? Comments please and where to > >find some de-stink services locally? > > > >Cheers, > > > >Wizard > From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Tue May 15 08:42:37 2001 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: 74xx orgin In-Reply-To: <3B0132E2.27102.624C7476@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 May 2001 13:45:06 +0200 Hans Franke wrote: > When where the first 74xx ICs released / designed ? Late 1960s/Early 1970s, I think. > Especialy when where complex chips like 744x, 748x or > 74181 first mentioned/available ? Probably early 1970s. The story I've heard is that Texas Instruments wanted to build a computer for oilfield instrumentation (hence the name of the company). They built it by first designing a range of SSI (Small-Scale Integration) gates as TTL chips, then building the system with them. The chips were sold as the 7400, 7401, and so on, and the rest is history! I have a 74 TTL design guide at home, so I'll check it too. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue May 15 08:53:22 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon. In-Reply-To: <381590176.989931383649.JavaMail.root@web625-wrb.mail.com> Message-ID: <01May15.100433edt.119044@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> On Tuesday, May 15, 2001, at 08:56 AM, ajp me wrote: > First rule of engineering if it isn't written down it never happend. > That machine has two spiral bound notbooks and several > inches of printouts... just in case I had to replace it. Allison, Coming from someone who has been in this business as long as you have, I bet just your notes and other documentation that you've put together would be pretty interesting, much less all the docs you got with various items. Jeff From at258 at osfn.org Tue May 15 08:58:04 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: VCF East 1.0 - July 28/29 in Marlborough, Massachusetts! In-Reply-To: <3B0031F1.31544.5E60C856@localhost> Message-ID: A pity the Bremen isn't running, eh? On Mon, 14 May 2001, Hans Franke wrote: > > Who's going to VCF East?? I was toying around with going and wanted to see > > who from the list would be there. > > :) I'm just looking for the right mode of transportation... > > Ciao > Hans > > -- > VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen > http://www.vcfe.org/ > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue May 15 09:07:43 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: 74xx orgin In-Reply-To: References: <3B0132E2.27102.624C7476@localhost> Message-ID: <3B01544F.18706.62CF06BB@localhost> > On Tue, 15 May 2001 13:45:06 +0200 Hans Franke > wrote: > > When where the first 74xx ICs released / designed ? > Late 1960s/Early 1970s, I think. > > Especialy when where complex chips like 744x, 748x or > > 74181 first mentioned/available ? > Probably early 1970s. Maybe I should specify my question ... I need to know at what date these chips where at first available - not just the era. A good single IC to use could be the 74181 ALU. > The story I've heard is that Texas Instruments wanted to > build a computer for oilfield instrumentation (hence the > name of the company). They built it by first designing a > range of SSI (Small-Scale Integration) gates as TTL chips, > then building the system with them. The chips were sold as > the 7400, 7401, and so on, and the rest is history! :)) > I have a 74 TTL design guide at home, so I'll check it too. The oldest datasheet I could find says Dec 1972 for the 74S181 Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue May 15 09:15:13 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: VCF East 1.0 - July 28/29 in Marlborough, Massachusetts! In-Reply-To: References: <3B0031F1.31544.5E60C856@localhost> Message-ID: <3B015611.21767.62D5E72B@localhost> > > > Who's going to VCF East?? I was toying around with going and wanted to see > > > who from the list would be there. > > :) I'm just looking for the right mode of transportation... > A pity the Bremen isn't running, eh? The Bremen ? Well, in fact I was more thinking along to take a fright liner to the US, just I don't have enough vacation time left for 6 Weeks in the US plus a ship jurney (7 days one way). So I'll just take a plane and let my bike take the boat. Ciao H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From vance at ikickass.org Tue May 15 09:34:03 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Vance Dereksen) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: destinking the computers. In-Reply-To: <15104.45630.944575.517250@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: MMMmmmMMMmmmMMM... Alconox. Peace... Sridhar On Tue, 15 May 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 15, jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > > Alcohol do very little to dislodge junk and only kills bugs and > > mildew but the remains stays there and still smell. > > Even the windex help very little it's consumer grade. Very weak. > > > > What I'm looking for is real thing that oxidizes the stink and get > > all the dirt and junk floating out of hidden cravities with a flush. > > Perhaps something like Alconox? I've seen that stuff do amazing > things. > > -Dave McGuire > From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Tue May 15 10:13:33 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: NeXTs? Message-ID: <200105151513.IAA08464@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Whatever happened with all those NeXTs that were bought at the auction? I haven't heard anything since :-/ Still interested! -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- FORTUNE: You will be hit with a lot of money. Avoid armoured trucks. ------- From edick at idcomm.com Tue May 15 10:34:37 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: nvram that 2716 pin compatible??? References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010514035834.023736d0@mail.zipcon.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20010514130812.02280a70@mail.zipcon.net> <3B006FE4.68A0F508@atari-history.com> Message-ID: <002301c0dd54$8cf60a60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Check Dallas Semiconductor's offering. It seems to me that they still had a 24-pin part available in their line of battery-backed SRAMs. One of their battery-equipped "smart sockets" might be the ticket. Check it out! www.dalsemi.com Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Curt Vendel" To: Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 5:53 PM Subject: nvram that 2716 pin compatible??? > Anyone know of any nvram currently avail. or discontinued that would 2716 pin > compatible???? > > > > Curt > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue May 15 10:37:43 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: DRV11-WA info References: Message-ID: <003701c0dd54$fbd7f740$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well ... FUBAR was a common term in the military before there was an 11/780, or, for that matter, a Digital Equipment Corp. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 11:52 AM Subject: Re: DRV11-WA info > > > > Hey I just felt compelled to make a joke.. and keep in mind it was like 1AM > > my time... Is there a SNAFU register as well? Just wondering... I need to > > Not as far as I know. > > FUBAR _is_ the official name for the failed unibus address register, as > used in the 11/780 user manual and printset, though. > > > > have SEX with all my Interdata's/Perkin-Elmer's... heh, thats the "System > > Excerciser" > > What about on the 6809 (Sign eXtend) and the 1802 (SEt X). > > Is it time to metion the ORL (Or Logical) and ANL (And Logical) > instructions on the 8048 series (and yes, they're generally pronounced as > you'd expect). > > -tony > > From foo at siconic.com Tue May 15 09:46:43 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: 74xx orgin In-Reply-To: <3B0132E2.27102.624C7476@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 May 2001, Hans Franke wrote: > When where the first 74xx ICs released / designed ? > Especialy when where complex chips like 744x, 748x or > 74181 first mentioned/available ? > > This may be a stuipd question, but I couldn't find any > information ... so all I have is my personal guess (~1970) > and the oldesd TTL book Philip Belben could find (1972). > > Anyone more informed ? I think you guys are going to have to use DTL. If TTL was even around in 1970, it was probably pretty expensive at first. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Tue May 15 09:47:23 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: VAX bar In-Reply-To: <3B0124E2.D919C492@atari-history.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 May 2001, Curt Vendel wrote: > A truly beautiful work of insanity.... two thumbs up! A waste of a VAX :( Two big thumbs down. > liste@artware.qc.ca wrote: > > > http://toyvax.tucson.az.us/~vance/vaxbar.html > > > > -Philip > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 15 11:04:01 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: destinking the computers. In-Reply-To: Re: destinking the computers. (Vance Dereksen) References: <15104.45630.944575.517250@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <15105.21361.564575.494858@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 15, Vance Dereksen wrote: > MMMmmmMMMmmmMMM... Alconox. Tastes great with milk! -Dave McGuire From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue May 15 11:14:17 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: 74xx orgin In-Reply-To: References: <3B0132E2.27102.624C7476@localhost> Message-ID: <3B0171F9.19524.6342E862@localhost> > > When where the first 74xx ICs released / designed ? > > Especialy when where complex chips like 744x, 748x or > > 74181 first mentioned/available ? > > This may be a stuipd question, but I couldn't find any > > information ... so all I have is my personal guess (~1970) > > and the oldesd TTL book Philip Belben could find (1972). > > Anyone more informed ? > I think you guys are going to have to use DTL. If TTL was even around in > 1970, it was probably pretty expensive at first. You know why we need this info ...(big secret until some day)... and in this context to expensive wasn't a real issue. Ciao Hans -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue May 15 11:20:09 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: VAX bar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <01May15.123121edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> On Tuesday, May 15, 2001, at 10:47 AM, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Tue, 15 May 2001, Curt Vendel wrote: > >> A truly beautiful work of insanity.... two thumbs up! > > A waste of a VAX :( Two big thumbs down. The interior had already been stripped of usable parts prior to him rescuing the cabinet so at least it was rescued vice going to the dump or scrapped. Jeff From LFessen106 at aol.com Tue May 15 11:30:28 2001 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: I *need* a Rack Message-ID: Does anyone in the list here on the east coast have a 19" rack they are looking to get rid of? I really could put on of those to goo use. -Linc Fessenden In The Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... Calculating in binary code is as easy as 01,10,11. From dittman at dittman.net Tue May 15 11:44:55 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: 64180 Re: Old chips for new project. In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010515091410.00a1c210@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "joe" at May 15, 2001 09:16:48 AM Message-ID: <200105151644.f4FGitL26785@narnia.int.dittman.net> > You could build one of Steve Ciarcia's (sp?) SB-180s. They're great > machines. I have big pile of Hitachi 64180 CPUs if anyone needs any. Just > pay the postage. Joe, I'd like a couple of the 64180 CPUs. I'd have sent this to you direct, but the email bounced. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From dittman at dittman.net Tue May 15 12:05:06 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: 74xx orgin In-Reply-To: from "John Honniball" at May 15, 2001 02:42:37 PM Message-ID: <200105151705.f4FH56w26857@narnia.int.dittman.net> > The story I've heard is that Texas Instruments wanted to > build a computer for oilfield instrumentation (hence the > name of the company). They built it by first designing a > range of SSI (Small-Scale Integration) gates as TTL chips, > then building the system with them. The chips were sold as > the 7400, 7401, and so on, and the rest is history! As a former employee of TI, I'm familiar with the history. TI actually started as Geophysical Services (GSI). Later the company changed the name to Coronado, with GSI as a subsidiary. Later some employees bought GSI from Coronado and established themselves as a separate company. In the early fifties ('50 or '51, I think) they changed the name to Texas Instruments and GSI again became a subsidiary. So the oilfield instrumentation was part of the business at the time, but not the driving force (GSI and Semi were separate). TI was living high on the silicon transistor at the time and the research group was always busy looking at ways to make transistors smaller. Oilfield instrumentation didn't have to be small; it usually was carried around in trucks. The military and space business was the real driving force in making things smaller. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue May 15 12:09:56 2001 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: 74xx orgin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010515170956.25687.qmail@web9505.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Tue, 15 May 2001, Hans Franke wrote: > > > When where the first 74xx ICs released / designed ? First? Don't know. As has been mentioned, the M series of FLIP-CHIPs from DEC used TTL (7400, 7404, 7474, etc.) Mine have date codes in the range of 1968-1969. I don't recall if there are any in my machines with codes prior to 1968. I would have to look. > > Especialy when where complex chips like 744x, 748x or > > 74181 first mentioned/available ? No idea. If I had to guess, I'd say 1970. > > ... so all I have is my personal guess (~1970) Ah! Good guess. > > Anyone more informed ? > > I think you guys are going to have to use DTL. If TTL was even around in > 1970, it was probably pretty expensive at first. >From http://www.faqs.org/faqs/dec-faq/pdp8-models/ Subject: What is a PDP-8/L? Date of introduction: 1968 (Announced before August '68) Date of withdrawal: 1971. Total production run: 3902. Price: $8,500 ... and... Subject: What is a PDP-8/I? Date of introduction: 1968 (Announced before December '67) Date of withdrawal: 1971. Total production run: 3698. Technology: DEC M-series logic modules, called M-series flip-chips as the term flip-chip was applied to the module format instead of to DEC's hybrid integrated circuits. M-series modules used TTL chips, with a +5 volt supply, packaged on the same board format used with the original flip-chips, but with double-sided card-edge connectors (36 contacts instead of 18). Modules were limited to typically 4 SSI ICs each. The M113, a typical M-series module, had 10 2-input nand gates and cost $23 in 1967 (the price fell to $18 in 1970). Wire-wrapped backplanes used 30-gauge wire. So here is evidence that in 1967, DEC was shipping modules with TTL parts on them, and that the cost was probably a small number of dollars per part, certainly less than $10/chip for some of the simpler ones. The M113 has three 7400 chips on it, does it not? Based on the price of $23, I'd expect that the IC were a few dollars each and the rest of the price was for the PCB and assembly, testing, storage, shipping, profit, etc. Does $2-$3 each count as expensive? -ethan ===== Visit "The Seventh Continent" http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Tue May 15 12:37:00 2001 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: destinking the computers. Message-ID: The problem trying to remove the odor of cigarette smoke is that nicotine is not water soluble. I once cleaned our families smoke eater with kerosene to remove the nicotine from the electrostatic plates. I don't remember the name but there is a cleaner used on electronics that's made from orange peels. pointer to degreaser made from citrus peels http://www.dep.state.fl.us/dwm/programs/p2/factsheets/6terpene.pdf More information about commercial product. http://www.ecki.com/vst/prdt487.htm Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu Electronic mail from Mike McFadden at The Children's Mercy Hospital, mmcfadden@cmh.edu. This communication is intended only for the use of the addressee. It may contain information which is privileged or confidential under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or the agent of the recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copy or disclosure of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify The Children's Mercy Hospital at 816-234-3454 or via return Internet electronic mail at mmcfadden@cmh.edu and expunge this communication without making any copies. Thank you for your cooperation. From gene at ehrich.com Tue May 15 12:38:42 2001 From: gene at ehrich.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: TI orgin In-Reply-To: <200105151705.f4FH56w26857@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010515133737.00acc8a0@popmail.voicenet.com> At 12:05 PM 5/15/01 -0500, you wrote: >As a former employee of TI, I'm familiar with the history. Didn't the beginnings of TI have something to do with funding from IBM as a result of government anti-trust action against IBM? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- gene@ehrich.com gehrich@tampabay.rr.com P.O. Box 3365 Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365 http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From uban at ubanproductions.com Tue May 15 13:13:32 2001 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: I *need* a Rack In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010515131316.0212aad8@ubanproductions.com> Where are you located? --tom -- At 12:30 PM 5/15/2001 -0400, you wrote: >Does anyone in the list here on the east coast have a 19" rack they are >looking to get rid of? I really could put on of those to goo use. > >-Linc Fessenden > >In The Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... > >Calculating in binary code is as easy as 01,10,11. From bakcc at bigoakhill.com Tue May 15 13:22:36 2001 From: bakcc at bigoakhill.com (bakcc@bigoakhill.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: My IBM 1130 In-Reply-To: <200105151644.f4FGitL26785@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <200105151827.f4FIRf101138@mnmai05.mn.mediaone.net> Is there still interest out there for a complete IBM 1130 system (that's 1131 processor, 1132 line printer, and 1442 card reader/punch)? I have it, and need to part with it... just can't justify it taking up all the space anymore. Check it out... photos at www.bigoakhill.com, go there, click on "for sale", scoll down and click on the 1130. -Bruce Keller From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Tue May 15 13:43:25 2001 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: destinking the computers. Message-ID: OK, well so far none of those solutions seem likely to help me... The computer in question has a unique odor, not mouse/mold/cigarette/anything else mentioned before generated, nor is it one I recognize, and I've driven it down the road in the back of a pickup mostly disassembled at speeds in excess of 45MPH... And it still FREAKING REEKS! I'm not making a joke, but my Wang really smells... And its a funky smell, sometimes not present, and other times you can smell it even with the front door shut... I'd really like to eradicate the odor, though much joke potential will be lost... Suggestions? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From sipke at wxs.nl Tue May 15 13:54:31 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: 74xx orgin References: <3B0132E2.27102.624C7476@localhost> Message-ID: <000d01c0dd70$7a8e5dc0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> If guess Fairchild was the company that first made the 54/74xx series The 54xx had mil. specs the 74xx had consumer specs. The first generation was SSI (Small Scale Intergration) like gates and flipflops, Later came MSI, like decoders, adders, counters, and even Alu's (74181) Over time the series also came in a variety of technologies: 74xx (Regular TTL) 74Hxx (High Power ... faster but consumed a lot of amps) 74Lxx (Low power but slow... and not very low-power by todays norm) 74LSxx (Low power Scotty ... propably the best! ) Subsequently followed up by the "modern" CMOS types like 74HCTxx or 74ALSxx etc They were "second sourced" by companies like National Semiconductor, Motorola, Texas Instruments, Siemens, Signetics et al. Before that DTL was in vogue, like the 90xx and 93xx series And even before that RTL was the buzzword. Sipke de Wal --------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx --------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Hans Franke To: Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 1:45 PM Subject: 74xx orgin > When where the first 74xx ICs released / designed ? > Especialy when where complex chips like 744x, 748x or > 74181 first mentioned/available ? > > This may be a stuipd question, but I couldn't find any > information ... so all I have is my personal guess (~1970) > and the oldesd TTL book Philip Belben could find (1972). > > Anyone more informed ? > > Gruss > H. > > > -- > VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen > http://www.vcfe.org/ From foo at siconic.com Tue May 15 13:12:08 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: 74xx orgin In-Reply-To: <3B0171F9.19524.6342E862@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 May 2001, Hans Franke wrote: > You know why we need this info ...(big secret until some day)... and Of course :) > in this context to expensive wasn't a real issue. I thought affordability was an issue? Anyway, maybe by the time you get here in September I will have my data books sufficiently organized so you can look through them. I do have data books back into the 60s, though not sure if they are TTL or even DTL. Also, some of the electronics surplus stores around here have data book libraries that may go back that far. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Tue May 15 13:13:00 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: VAX bar In-Reply-To: <01May15.123121edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 May 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > On Tuesday, May 15, 2001, at 10:47 AM, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > On Tue, 15 May 2001, Curt Vendel wrote: > > > >> A truly beautiful work of insanity.... two thumbs up! > > > > A waste of a VAX :( Two big thumbs down. > > The interior had already been stripped of usable parts prior to him > rescuing the cabinet so at least it was rescued vice going to the dump > or scrapped. I just don't want to encourage the destruction of other innocent VAXen :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From menadeau at mediaone.net Tue May 15 14:16:45 2001 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: destinking the computers. References: Message-ID: <0e0201c0dd73$98729ec0$0c01a8c0@michaelnadeau> Used car dealers have something that they use to get rid of nasty odors--cigarette smoke, etc. I don't know what it is, but any service department should be able to tell you what it is and how to get it. It generally works at eliminating the offending odor, but it leaves its own sweetish smell behind. --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Will Jennings" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 2:43 PM Subject: RE: destinking the computers. > OK, well so far none of those solutions seem likely to help me... The > computer in question has a unique odor, not mouse/mold/cigarette/anything > else mentioned before generated, nor is it one I recognize, and I've driven > it down the road in the back of a pickup mostly disassembled at speeds in > excess of 45MPH... And it still FREAKING REEKS! I'm not making a joke, but > my Wang really smells... And its a funky smell, sometimes not present, and > other times you can smell it even with the front door shut... I'd really > like to eradicate the odor, though much joke potential will be lost... > Suggestions? > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Tue May 15 15:31:38 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: TI orgin In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010515133737.00acc8a0@popmail.voicenet.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 May 2001, Gene Ehrich wrote: > At 12:05 PM 5/15/01 -0500, you wrote: > >As a former employee of TI, I'm familiar with the history. > > Didn't the beginnings of TI have something to do with funding from IBM as a > result of government anti-trust action against IBM? > >From http://www.ti.com/corp/docs/company/history/1930s.shtml: "May 16.[1930] Founded as "Geophysical Service," first independent contractor specializing in reflection seismograph method of exploration. Founders J. Clarence "Doc" Karcher and Eugene McDermott. Cecil Green and Erik Jonsson among first employess. Estimated revenues $300,000." The name was changed to Texas Instruments Incorporated in 1951, by which time the company was heavily into electronics. Geophysical Services became a wholly-owned subsidiary. IBM willingly funding competitors? (TI did build one big computer, the ASC) Not likely. They did have to give up IP claims to Control Data. Don't recall offhand if any money changed hands there. That case has been discussed here before though. It should be in the archives. jbdigriz From dogas at bellsouth.net Tue May 15 14:34:44 2001 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: Big ass AS400 References: Message-ID: <00a201c0dd76$18f717e0$65db3fd0@DOMAIN> Don't know if it's 10yrs old yet but there is a 6 unit (chassis type 9406) 400 available whole or for parts locally (Brunswick, GA 31520) It's too big for me but it's impressive. Contact me off list for details and contact info... ;) - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net From rhblake at bigfoot.com Tue May 15 14:49:38 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: destinking the computers. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There is soap and water for that funky wang. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Will Jennings > Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 1:43 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: destinking the computers. > my Wang really smells... And its a funky smell, From curt at atari-history.com Tue May 15 18:02:24 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: VAX bar References: Message-ID: <3B01B57F.78F05BB8@atari-history.com> Before you know it there will be 3400's used as nightstands, 8000's as wardrobes or refrigerators, 4000's used as kitchen cabinets. Heaven forbid this becomes "fashionable" suddenly the innocent slaughtering of vaxen's could become rampant, only 2nd to animal furs.... protestors will have to picket outside of Peir 1's and Ikea's and instead of throwing red paint, they'll throw MMJ connectors and cabinet assembly bolts at people buying these attrocities.... Sorry Sellam, I couldn't resist :-) Curt Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Tue, 15 May 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > > > On Tuesday, May 15, 2001, at 10:47 AM, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > On Tue, 15 May 2001, Curt Vendel wrote: > > > > > >> A truly beautiful work of insanity.... two thumbs up! > > > > > > A waste of a VAX :( Two big thumbs down. > > > > The interior had already been stripped of usable parts prior to him > > rescuing the cabinet so at least it was rescued vice going to the dump > > or scrapped. > > I just don't want to encourage the destruction of other innocent VAXen :) > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From dittman at dittman.net Tue May 15 15:11:07 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: TI orgin In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010515133737.00acc8a0@popmail.voicenet.com> from "Gene Ehrich" at May 15, 2001 01:38:42 PM Message-ID: <200105152011.f4FKB7T27482@narnia.int.dittman.net> > >As a former employee of TI, I'm familiar with the history. > > Didn't the beginnings of TI have something to do with funding from IBM as a > result of government anti-trust action against IBM? Not that they ever told us in the presentations and orientation, and I never heard this from any of the old-timers. GSI started back in the thirties. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 15 12:59:22 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: Old chips for new project. In-Reply-To: <013e01c0dcdd$4e4d3620$47789a8d@ajp166> from "ajp166" at May 14, 1 09:16:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1408 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010515/c652f47d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 15 13:05:16 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: Old chips for new project. In-Reply-To: <001e01c0dcdd$f149c280$88f8fea9@98box> from "Lanny Cox" at May 14, 1 10:55:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1300 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010515/98203523/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 15 13:10:47 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: 74xx orgin In-Reply-To: <3B01544F.18706.62CF06BB@localhost> from "Hans Franke" at May 15, 1 04:07:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 206 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010515/3658b8cd/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 15 13:16:16 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: DRV11-WA info In-Reply-To: <003701c0dd54$fbd7f740$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at May 15, 1 09:37:43 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 876 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010515/bc118dfd/attachment.ksh From allain at panix.com Tue May 15 15:22:28 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: destinking the computers. References: Message-ID: <000d01c0dd7c$c38aa360$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> What about the prior threads on using the Dishwasher? John A. From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue May 15 15:35:14 2001 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: destinking the computers. Message-ID: <20010515.153703.-16399053.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Oh yea-- that's the same stuff they use in Hospitals, right? I always wondered why they all smelled *exactly* the same :^). Isn't that stuff usually allowed to 'wick out' a cotton pad stuck in the bottle? Jeff On Tue, 15 May 2001 15:16:45 -0400 "Michael Nadeau" writes: > Used car dealers have something that they use to get rid of nasty > odors--cigarette smoke, etc. I don't know what it is, but any > service > department should be able to tell you what it is and how to get it. > > It generally works at eliminating the offending odor, but it leaves > its own > sweetish smell behind. > > --Mike ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue May 15 15:42:36 2001 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: VAX bar In-Reply-To: <3B01B57F.78F05BB8@atari-history.com> from "Curt Vendel" at May 15, 2001 04:02:24 PM Message-ID: <200105152042.OAA10050@calico.litterbox.com> That isn't too far from the truth. Tell a classic mac zealot you made a fishtank out of an original mac and you'll get a similar reaction, I imagine. I wouldn't do it to the SE30 we have - it does useful work as a network terminal (telnet, fetch, etc) and my wife would shoot me. It's her first personal computer. In general I agree that a system should be restored if possible, but there are two mitigating factors: 1. The vax had already been gutted, and 2. 11/780s aren't especially uncommon. It WOULD be a tragedy if one of the wierd vaxen got made into a bar - a 9000, for example. But the 11/780 sold zillions - it launched the 32 bit minicomputer universe. Speaking of which, does anyone out there HAVE a Vax 9000? > Before you know it there will be 3400's used as nightstands, 8000's as wardrobes > or refrigerators, 4000's used as kitchen cabinets. Heaven forbid this becomes > "fashionable" suddenly the innocent slaughtering of vaxen's could become rampant, > only 2nd to animal furs.... protestors will have to picket outside of Peir 1's > and Ikea's and instead of throwing red paint, they'll throw MMJ connectors and > cabinet assembly bolts at people buying these attrocities.... > > > Sorry Sellam, I couldn't resist :-) Bait Sellam at your own risk, he seems to have an itchy "flame" finger. :) -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue May 15 15:53:43 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: Old chips for new project. References: Message-ID: <3B019757.18E31ED3@mcmanis.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Look at the 'Student Manual' for 'The Art of Electronics'. This is > essentially an electronics lab course, and it goes from resistors to > making a small microprocessor system. This is a really great book (get the text book too!) and you can usually get it used at significant savings at any college bookstore that teaches EE (its used a lot). Since the bookstore pays students 1/2 cover (and then sells them used @75%) if you catch it at the end of the semester find a kid who thought it would pay a lot to be an engineer and buy his at 60% :-) Generally they won't have even creased the binding :-) :-) Further the authors (Horowitz and Hill) are on line and actually answer their email. My guess is that the third edition will start with resistors and end with you designing a microprocessor system using an FPGA. Its the next step in evolution. --Chuck From ip500 at home.com Tue May 15 16:13:22 2001 From: ip500 at home.com (ip500) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: I *need* a Rack References: Message-ID: <3B019BF2.7B119449@home.com> I've got several tall ~6' or so HP racks ..all with internal power and maybe fans as well. Nice shape too. $50 picked up in Roanoke, VA Craig LFessen106@aol.com wrote: > > Does anyone in the list here on the east coast have a 19" rack they are > looking to get rid of? I really could put on of those to goo use. > > -Linc Fessenden > > In The Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... > > Calculating in binary code is as easy as 01,10,11. From pechter at bg-tc-ppp733.monmouth.com Tue May 15 16:10:49 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp733.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: PDP11 SEX and Fubar In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "May 15, 2001 07:16:16 pm" Message-ID: <200105152110.f4FLAnR30837@bg-tc-ppp733.monmouth.com> > Yes, I am well aware of that. Point is, the acronym (the usual expansion > of which you'd not use in polite company ;-)) was used for said register > in all the official manuals, etc. > > I am quite sure the engineers at DEC knew what they were doing. I suspect > that the 'suits' didn't spot it until the manuals had already been shipped. I think this one slipped through the corporate cracks. > > One story I heard is that DEC engineers wanted to call the Sign Extension > instruction on the PDP11 'SEX'. They were stopped, and the mnemonic was > changed to SXT. Some other DEC engineers (probably), hearing this story, > decided to get their own back on the managment by calling this register > in the VAX FUBAR. This time it wasn't spotted before it was too late. So I was told at DEC Training. The PDP11/34 has the SEX Multiplexer doing the sign extend. Seems hardware engineering had a little more leeway than the software guys working on Macro11 and the assembler mnemonics. > > -tony > Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue May 15 16:11:29 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: Old chips for new project. References: Message-ID: <3B019B80.D774A23A@mcmanis.com> > > there have any advice/suggestions??? I missed the start of this thread, however if the trick is to build a microcomputer from scratch then I can suggest two possibilities: 1) Build it around a '5 chip' computer. Z80, Z80-CTC, 2816 EEPROM, 6116 2K RAM, Z80-DART You will need to add a 2Mhz TTL "can" oscillator a MAX233 TTL->RS232 signal level converter a 5volt regulator I can supply you with a nice 2K monitor that I wrote for the Z80 that lets you dump memory, enter hex into ram, and basically have a good time with it. (I've got both a 2K version and a moderately more sophisticated 4K version) 2) Build it around the Motorola 68HC11 single chip processor The MC68HC11-E2 has 2K of flash on board and 256 bytes of RAM. Just add an RS-232 level shifter and 5 volts and you are done. Search for 'BOTBoard' to find a _really_ easy to build system. > When I started out in electronics, I got one of those big bags of > 'untested' TTL chips from Bi-Pak (IIRC). Many of those devices failed in > very odd ways -- 7483 adders where one internal carry connection didn't. > That sort of thing. I spent a long time trying to figure out why my > circuits didn't work properly. PolyPaks was famous for this. It wasn't until much later that I figured out _why_ they were so cheap. I ended up buying one of those "assortment in bins" thing for $100 (huge budget on my part!) and had a great time with a DigiDesigner building and using circuits. > When you get more experienced in electronics, and have some more test > gear, then you can start using such chips. If things don't work, you'll > know how to trace the fault. Gear acquistion plan: #1 Soldering iron (from this you can make a continuity tester with a lightbulb and two clips) #2 Digital Multi-meter (Volts/Ohms/Amps at least AC and DC scales) (these are now dirt cheap thanks to single chip solutions) #3 Now build a logic probe, have it capture high/low and clock signals. Next build a simple TTL level input frequency counter. #4 on my must have list is a decent power supply, you can build one from a kit or buy one, don't skimp, get at least 5v, preferably three supplys (two adjustable) to be able to do split supply things #5 on my "must have" then is an oscilloscope. 20Mhz bandwidth is fine for early TTL stuff, but you'll probably want to end up with a 100Mhz or better scope. #6 build an Eprom programmer (for micro processor development) it is easy to build one for a single family of Eprom. Even easier if you target EEPROMs (no UV eraser needed) #7 is a function generator. If you are going to diagnose things you have to know you are starting with a valid signal. This is also invaluable when doing analysis of AC circuits. #8 is a logic analyzer or state analyzer.Once you go to far down the sequential logic path you will need one of these (Tony: Did you know Agilent has discontinued the LogicDart!?!?) #9 Get a x86 architecture machine for your bench. You'll probably run DOS on it (maybe Windows) so that you can run the free tools that manufacturers give away. #10 Schematic Capture/PCB Layout package (run it on your PC from step #9) there are some reasonable ones that are cheap (EZTrax is free for example) At this point you are equipped to build what ever you need next... --Chuck From optimus at canit.se Mon May 14 21:30:07 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: gimpy (not broken) PSU In-Reply-To: <20010514225207.LUH7009.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <509.535T350T2104491optimus@canit.se> jpero skrev: >Find peecee PS/2 style AT PSU and compare to your compaq's PSU, is it >exact fit, same connectors styles? Replace compaq's PSU with that >$40 PSU. ATX PSU is same shape and mounting screws is same as PS/2 >style PSUs for peecees except ATX doesn't have power switch cord >coming out of box ending into 4 spade connectors. None of my PS/2s uses an AT style CPU. They're all very unique and feed directly into the planar (motherboard), much like certain Mac PSUs. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 15 16:46:10 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: Old chips for new project. In-Reply-To: <3B019757.18E31ED3@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at May 15, 1 01:53:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1951 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010515/98c96b1b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 15 16:50:29 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: PDP11 SEX and Fubar In-Reply-To: <200105152110.f4FLAnR30837@bg-tc-ppp733.monmouth.com> from "Bill Pechter" at May 15, 1 05:10:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 337 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010515/1acfbee1/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue May 15 16:59:10 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:31 2005 Subject: PDP11 SEX and Fubar References: <200105152110.f4FLAnR30837@bg-tc-ppp733.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <3B01A6AE.D07D94E4@mcmanis.com> Bill Pechter wrote: > I think this one slipped through the corporate cracks. That and the RSX-11M error -69 "Path lost to partner." --Chuck From dittman at dittman.net Tue May 15 17:09:32 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: Infoserver 1000 Message-ID: <200105152209.f4FM9WD28087@narnia.int.dittman.net> I just got an external Infoserver 1000. Can anyone provide the pinouts for the power connector, or even better, does anyone have a spare power supply? -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From markn at mr2.net Tue May 15 17:15:15 2001 From: markn at mr2.net (Mark Nias) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: VAX bar In-Reply-To: <3B01B57F.78F05BB8@atari-history.com> Message-ID: <003301c0dd8c$845e33e0$960a0a0a@marknpc> this is not quite the same vintage as a vax, but an interersting project: http://www.fh-wedel.de/~kl/text/sgifridge/ hmmm... i wonder what i could turn my ibm powerstation 530 into... mark ======================= Mark Nias http://www.mr2.net http://www.marknias.com ======================= > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Curt Vendel > Sent: 16 May 2001 00:02 > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: VAX bar > > > Before you know it there will be 3400's used as nightstands, > 8000's as wardrobes > or refrigerators, 4000's used as kitchen cabinets. Heaven > forbid this becomes > "fashionable" suddenly the innocent slaughtering of vaxen's could > become rampant, > only 2nd to animal furs.... protestors will have to picket > outside of Peir 1's > and Ikea's and instead of throwing red paint, they'll throw MMJ > connectors and > cabinet assembly bolts at people buying these attrocities.... > > > Sorry Sellam, I couldn't resist :-) > > > Curt > > > Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > On Tue, 15 May 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > > > > > On Tuesday, May 15, 2001, at 10:47 AM, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > > On Tue, 15 May 2001, Curt Vendel wrote: > > > > > > > >> A truly beautiful work of insanity.... two thumbs up! > > > > > > > > A waste of a VAX :( Two big thumbs down. > > > > > > The interior had already been stripped of usable parts > prior to him > > > rescuing the cabinet so at least it was rescued vice going to the dump > > > or scrapped. > > > > I just don't want to encourage the destruction of other > innocent VAXen :) > > > > Sellam Ismail Vintage > Computer Festival > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------ > > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue May 15 17:38:46 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: 74xx orgin In-Reply-To: "Hans Franke" "74xx orgin" (May 15, 13:45) References: <3B0132E2.27102.624C7476@localhost> Message-ID: <10105152338.ZM15744@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 15, 13:45, Hans Franke wrote: > When where the first 74xx ICs released / designed ? > Especialy when where complex chips like 744x, 748x or > 74181 first mentioned/available ? > > This may be a stuipd question, but I couldn't find any > information ... so all I have is my personal guess (~1970) > and the oldesd TTL book Philip Belben could find (1972). According to Webopaedia and at least one history website, Texas released the first SSI TTL chips in 1965 and LSTTL in 1970. It certainly must have been before 1970 becasue DEC were using 7440's, 7481's ($9 each according to the spares list), and 74Hxx in quantity for the PDP-11/20 by 1970. The PDP-8/I used TTL in 1968. And the Smithsonian site quotes "NMAH catalog number 1987.0487.128, 314, 315 1964 - TI-G00206,294, 343 documentation News release: TI Announces new Series Of Semiconductor Integrated Circuits Combining High Speed And Low Power Advantages -- Solid Circuit Series 54" Nat Semi's website history pages quote 1970 as the year they made money from TTL 74xx series. But the earliest I can find in my Texas data books for MSI is 1972 for the 72181, same as Philip. The data sheets for the SSI are obviously older than that. Curiously, although there's lots of information on TI's own company information pages in the "Innovations" section, they don't mention TTL. The only relevant items are a press release on June 23, 1964 about granting of patents including "Features of integrated 'AND gates' and related devices" and mentioning that "Current Texas Instruments SOLID CIRCUIT? semiconductor networks contain up to 69 component equivalents formed within a single bar of ultra pure silicon material". That's not 54/74 series TTL, though, it's 51-series. The other is a reference to "1972: first ABACUS-II wire bonder, enabling high-volume IC production." There's some information on that at http://www.ti.com/corp/docs/company/history/abacus.shtml which I found very interesting as I used a manual wire bonder on a visit to Ferranti around 1972. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From menadeau at mediaone.net Tue May 15 17:42:51 2001 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: destinking the computers. References: <20010515.153703.-16399053.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <0e5801c0dd90$62fc39a0$0c01a8c0@michaelnadeau> I think it is some kind of fumigation process. I've heard dealers refer to it as "bombing" the car. --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey l Kaneko" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 4:35 PM Subject: Re: destinking the computers. > Oh yea-- that's the same stuff they use in Hospitals, right? > I always wondered why they all smelled *exactly* the same :^). > > Isn't that stuff usually allowed to 'wick out' a cotton > pad stuck in the bottle? > > > Jeff > > On Tue, 15 May 2001 15:16:45 -0400 "Michael Nadeau" > writes: > > Used car dealers have something that they use to get rid of nasty > > odors--cigarette smoke, etc. I don't know what it is, but any > > service > > department should be able to tell you what it is and how to get it. > > > > It generally works at eliminating the offending odor, but it leaves > > its own > > sweetish smell behind. > > > > --Mike > > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 15 17:10:59 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: Old chips for new project. In-Reply-To: <3B019B80.D774A23A@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at May 15, 1 02:11:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5845 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010515/7b585c90/attachment.ksh From mac at Wireless.Com Tue May 15 18:14:08 2001 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: destinking the computers. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Try Lysol or similar. I sprayed the bejeezus out of some old dec stuff that reeked, and, sure enough, it worked! No more stench. -Mike On Tue, 15 May 2001, Will Jennings wrote: > Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 12:43:25 -0600 > From: Will Jennings > Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: destinking the computers. > > OK, well so far none of those solutions seem likely to help me... The > computer in question has a unique odor, not mouse/mold/cigarette/anything > else mentioned before generated, nor is it one I recognize, and I've driven > it down the road in the back of a pickup mostly disassembled at speeds in > excess of 45MPH... And it still FREAKING REEKS! I'm not making a joke, but > my Wang really smells... And its a funky smell, sometimes not present, and > other times you can smell it even with the front door shut... I'd really > like to eradicate the odor, though much joke potential will be lost... > Suggestions? From zmerch at 30below.com Tue May 15 18:58:07 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: PDP11 SEX and Fubar In-Reply-To: <200105152110.f4FLAnR30837@bg-tc-ppp733.monmouth.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20010515195807.01897bb0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Bill Pechter may have mentioned these words: >So I was told at DEC Training. The PDP11/34 has the SEX Multiplexer >doing the sign extend. > >Seems hardware engineering had a little more leeway than the software >guys working on Macro11 and the assembler mnemonics. Maybe at DEC, but not at Motorola -- in 6809 Assembly, there *is* a SEX - which is Sign EXtend B register into A. (for working with the "D" register, which is A&B put together. Altho that's not the only (or even main) reason that's my favo[u]rite CPU... :-) >Bill Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From david_j_findlay at yahoo.com.au Tue May 15 19:11:17 2001 From: david_j_findlay at yahoo.com.au (David Findlay) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: Using audio cassette Message-ID: <01051610111700.02061@workshop> Hello I am a new member of the list in digest mode. I have read quite a bit about the early homebrew computer club days and processor techniques. I am currently designing my own computer and want to come up with a easy cheap method of mass storage. I have been thinking about hacking a tape recorder's read/write/erase heads and support equipment into my computer. I would just make a small modem thing to turn my data to sound and record it on the tape. Using a 90 minute tape, with a 10 second sector size, I would put a File allocation table at the start of the tape and that would tell the machine where to go to get a piece of data. Has anyone experimented with this sort of set up? I figured on audio tape because they are small, robust, and cheap. The computer will only be 16-bit so I don't think the speed of the storage would be a problem as my files won't be that big. It's got to be better than paper tape anyway. BTW, would anyone happen to know where I could find circuit diagrams/logic diagrams for either the PDP6 or PDP10? Thanks, David P.S. Could you please CC' your response to me? Otherwise I won't see your replies for a week... :-) -- David Findlay ---------- Email: david_j_findlay@yahoo.com.au Homepage: http://users.bigpond.com/nedz/ Segmentation Fault. (Core dumped) From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1580.monmouth.com Tue May 15 19:15:57 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1580.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: PDP11 SEX and Fubar In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "May 15, 2001 10:50:29 pm" Message-ID: <200105160015.f4G0Fvu33797@bg-tc-ppp1580.monmouth.com> > > So I was told at DEC Training. The PDP11/34 has the SEX Multiplexer > > doing the sign extend. > > I can't find the SEX Multiplexer on a quick glance through the printset, > but there is a signal called K8 SEX H from one of the microcode decode > PROMs to a multiplexer control input in the data path. Yes, it does sign > extension. > > -tony I don't have the 11/34a prints here anymore... but that sounds likely. Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From optimus at canit.se Tue May 15 18:50:25 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: destinking the computers. In-Reply-To: <20010515033643.EIWI28559.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <1710.536T1250T505075optimus@canit.se> jpero skrev: >Cigerette stink is worst I know but this one I'm bit lucky doesn't >stink like one EXCEPT that Mac II has collected so much regular dust >in it's life then pushed to storage is bad location where there's >humidty is high for long time. That's before I rescued that Mac II >from goodwill for $5. >Now it stank of must and dust. What is your process to destink that >Mac II? Scubbing is part solution but this case is full of >cravities and crannies, lot of hidden carvities under that tin sheet >fastened in place by melted mushroomed plastic pins. Best way I >think is soak it in some kind of chemical. including that PSU minus >fan. My A4000 came out of the household of an aging smoker, who was losing his tests of grey hair. Not only did the machine smell (a lot!), it was also coated with tar and other airbourne substances, into which his hair had stuck. Then there was the coffee and dead flies in the keyboard. In any case, I and a mate stripped the machine down as thoroughly as possible, then proceeded to use a brush to wipe the dust off the PCBs and remove the sticky film with some kind of clinical alcohol and tops (the kind you put in your ear). The case was put in the shower, can't remember whether we used anything to rub it, but I suppose that steel wool would be fine in the case of metal parts. Ah yes, we washed and scrubbed the case like you would with any dirty plate in the kitchen sink. If it stinks after this treatment, I'd have no idea what to do next. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Does the same as the system call of that name. If you don't know what it does, don't worry about it. --Larry Wall in the perl man page regarding chroot(2) From optimus at canit.se Tue May 15 18:26:04 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: Token Ring coax? In-Reply-To: <009c01c0dcd0$ad6416e0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <572.536T200T263569optimus@canit.se> John Allain skrev: >Apollo Token Ring was over peer to peer coax. >Each machine had two ports (ring, like HPIL, not Star) with >pass through. There was a neat Dead Man feature where a >bad node guaranteed to pass all signals through when inactive. >I think there were maximum ring limits. 256? >To build a large network you needed some king of switcher >thingie. Next? All right, is it compatible with IBM TR? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. G? med i SUGA, Swedish Usergroup of Amiga! WWW: http://swedish.usergroup.amiga.tm/ BBS: 08-6582572, telnet://sua.ath.cx:42512 From thompson at apdmxux01.athenet.net Tue May 15 19:34:08 2001 From: thompson at apdmxux01.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: VAX bar In-Reply-To: <3B01B57F.78F05BB8@atari-history.com> Message-ID: A 3400 could function as a nightstand with no loss of functionality (in fact, it could be an especially functional white noise generator...) My 5400 / BA215 functioned well as an aquarium stand for some gerbils and Ultrix runs to this day. I think I have a photo of it in this role somewhere... On Tue, 15 May 2001, Curt Vendel wrote: > Before you know it there will be 3400's used as nightstands, 8000's as > wardrobes or refrigerators, 4000's used as kitchen cabinets. Heaven > forbid this becomes "fashionable" suddenly the innocent slaughtering > of vaxen's could become rampant, only 2nd to animal furs.... > protestors will have to picket outside of Peir 1's and Ikea's and > instead of throwing red paint, they'll throw MMJ connectors and > cabinet assembly bolts at people buying these attrocities.... > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue May 15 19:41:46 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: 74xx orgin References: Message-ID: <005901c0dda0$fcceefe0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> That device is in my old (dated 1972) TI TTL databook, so I'd guess it was around before then. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 12:10 PM Subject: Re: 74xx orgin > > > > The oldest datasheet I could find says Dec 1972 for the 74S181 > > I would put it a little earlier than that, since the PDP11/45 uses that > ALU chip, and IIRC it came out in the middle of 1972. > > -tony > > From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue May 15 16:06:02 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: destinking the computers. In-Reply-To: <1710.536T1250T505075optimus@canit.se> References: <20010515033643.EIWI28559.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <20010516010329.OUUK28559.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > Date: 16 May 2001 0:50:25 +0100 > From: "Iggy Drougge" > Subject: Re: destinking the computers. > To: jpero > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > jpero skrev: > > My A4000 came out of the household of an aging smoker, who was losing his > tests of grey hair. Not only did the machine smell (a lot!), it was also > coated with tar and other airbourne substances, into which his hair had stuck. > Then there was the coffee and dead flies in the keyboard. > In any case, I and a mate stripped the machine down as thoroughly as possible, > then proceeded to use a brush to wipe the dust off the PCBs and remove the > sticky film with some kind of clinical alcohol and tops (the kind you put in > your ear). Qtips or ear swabs is what they are called. > Ah yes, we washed and scrubbed the case like you would with any dirty plate in > the kitchen sink. In that case with A4000 case it's simple smooth case with few crevices. Take apart Mac II, you will understand what I'm facing with this task. I once cleaned plastic grills for a household fan (that type that used round rotating vanes to direct air around via small motor.) Very tedious and hard, imagine that brushing hard with old toothbrush on small square of hole getting all grime and dust out. Mac II case is like that most of cavities are hidden. To few who have stinky cigarette-coated and others that is spoiled with grease films (as from kitchen enviroments) machines, mechanical cleaning and harsh chemicals and active chemicals is only way to break down those dried tough rancid oils (hardened like linseed oil on wood). Once I tried the major cleaning on a minitower peecee case (just that it, threw out working PSU. (!!) ) of cigarette smoke stain. Plastic sucks up stain+stink while painted surfaces does to small degree. Even well scrubbed and very C-A-R-E-FULLY few times with many cleaners and alcohol, lots of paper towels. I can't get smell totally out. Actually still emits stink strongly even surfaces is spotlessly clean and towels came up clean after last few days of off and on attempts. Gave up and traded it away for small "cash" towards other stuff. The multi-year of kitchen grease coating is TOUGH! Nothing we can find will touch it, boiling it in water and some soap got it softened enough to scrape'n scrub off with some work. That yuck was on kitchen plastic fan to get noise and viberation down in a college apt kitchen fan once, clean fan ran much better and quieter on oiled motor. :-) Mildew and fungus growth matter are stuck to the all surfaces and has to be removed by oxidizing action, scrubbing merely remove some of them. Cheers, Wizard > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From foo at siconic.com Tue May 15 19:09:03 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: VAX bar In-Reply-To: <200105152042.OAA10050@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 May 2001, Jim Strickland wrote: > Bait Sellam at your own risk, he seems to have an itchy "flame" > finger. :) Only for you, Jimbo ;) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 15 20:10:12 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: Using audio cassette In-Reply-To: <01051610111700.02061@workshop> from "David Findlay" at May 16, 1 10:11:17 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3444 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010516/b104eb1a/attachment.ksh From dancohoe at oxford.net Tue May 15 20:13:14 2001 From: dancohoe at oxford.net (Dan Cohoe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: IBM CICS manuals or other information References: <4a.15b8445d.2830d96c@aol.com> Message-ID: <3B01D42A.72B951C2@oxford.net> I have a large number of IBM CICS manuals as well as 9375 and VM / VS manuals. I also have the 9375 in operating condition. It would take a while to look through all of the huge volume of paper that came with this machine. One CICS manual I have in my hand right now is SC33-0070-6 Program Number 5746-XX3 (CICS/DOS/VS) If you think there's any chance that some of this might be useful, e-mail me directly with more information and I'll go digging. Dan Cohoe BeaumontDawson@aol.com wrote: > Hello out there, > does anyone know where I can get hold of information on the follwing old IBM > products > (manuals/microfiche etc) > > products > ----------- > 5798-AXC > 5796-AEF > > manuals > ---------- > SH20-1358 > G320-8088 > SN20-6277 From foo at siconic.com Tue May 15 19:26:12 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: Using audio cassette In-Reply-To: <01051610111700.02061@workshop> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 May 2001, David Findlay wrote: > Using a 90 minute tape, with a 10 second sector size, I would put a > File allocation table at the start of the tape and that would tell the > machine where to go to get a piece of data. Has anyone experimented > with this sort of set up? I figured on audio tape because they are > small, robust, and cheap. The computer will only be 16-bit so I don't > think the speed of the storage would be a problem as my files won't be > that big. It's got to be better than paper tape anyway. Haave you considered using magnetic tape to build your own drum memory? Would this even work? I don't know, I've only considered it. I find many old multi-track audio tape recorders/players in thrift/charity stores these days. Perhaps you can hack one of those? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue May 15 19:33:34 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: 74xx orgin Message-ID: <003201c0dd9f$f2ff4c90$ab789a8d@ajp166> From: Sellam Ismail >I think you guys are going to have to use DTL. If TTL was even around in >1970, it was probably pretty expensive at first. It existed in 1970. By 1973 it was widely used. My Yasu Freq counter (good to 350mhz) was purchased in 73 and contains: 7490 decade counter (usually good to 35mhz then) 7475 quad latch 7441 Decimal decoder and Nixi driver. 7400 7404 74Sxx parts were a year or two later. Allison From allain at panix.com Tue May 15 20:33:48 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: destinking the computers. References: <1710.536T1250T505075optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <001f01c0dda8$41db28e0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > The case was put in the shower... OK, I did this once too. I once had the extreme pleasure of finding a uVax3100+VS3100 left out on the curb with the trash. Turned out they were both filled with fine silt. I figured that it could've been 1 of two possibilities: We had a bad hurricane 2 years ago that probably flooded the guy's basement (or, his frustruated wife could've frisbee'd the things into a lake ). Anyway Dr. John was too late. Some fragile parts had corroded through and there was residual water in the HDD's. But I tried anyway. . John A. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue May 15 19:40:44 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: 74xx orgin Message-ID: <003b01c0dda2$0ca42ba0$ab789a8d@ajp166> From: Hans Franke > >Maybe I should specify my question ... I need to know >at what date these chips where at first available - >not just the era. A good single IC to use could be the >74181 ALU. Around 71. Then the H, S, LS, ALS and F parts. >> I have a 74 TTL design guide at home, so I'll check it too. > >The oldest datasheet I could find says Dec 1972 for the 74S181 Sounds close to right. The S however was later the basic 74181 was first. Infact the July 1972 issue of Ham Radio Has a supplier selling the 74181 for $4.50!! Allison From thompson at apdmxux01.athenet.net Tue May 15 20:36:44 2001 From: thompson at apdmxux01.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: Console bulkhead battery source In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have a BA215 DECsystem 5400 whose NiCad battery pack for the TOY clock and console settings has finally given up the ghost. It consists of three AAA 1.2V 180mAh NiCads shrinkwrapped together leading to a Molex 2695 two lead connector. 1) Does anyone know a source for these other than Compaq? I cringe to think what they would charge for one. I admit that I am something of an ignoramous regarding electronics and read with envy when others post about finding easy fixes for blown power supplies and the like. With this in mind: 2) does anyone know easily offhand if other 1.2V battery packs could be used in its place? There seem to be two or four cell AAA battery packs available on the web but would these work in this scenario without damage to anything? I did not find any three cell packs. What are the rules of thumb for what would or wouldn't work? Somewhat related question just because I am curious: 3) is the console bulkhead on my 5400 the same as is used on other QBUS DSSI Mayfair MicroVAX 3x00? Mine has a part number 70-25775-02. I guess I would be surprised if it was different. -- From claudew at videotron.ca Tue May 15 20:57:24 2001 From: claudew at videotron.ca (Claude.W) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: destinking the computers References: <20010515033643.EIWI28559.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> <20010516010329.OUUK28559.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <003d01c0ddab$8d631180$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> What about this idea: Taking all the parts that can be "dipped" and making them sit in very hot water in a large plastic garbage can with some kinda "citrous based" cleaning product mixed in? Will the hot water not "open up" the plastic "pores" a bit and let in leech a bit of the smelly stuff out. I used to be able to dye plastic parts (teflon and similar) easy with boiling water and Tintex clothing crystal dies. I think the hot water really "opens up" the plastic and can really get into the top layers... And this idea : how bout trying to bring back a yellowed (UV light) computer case by dying it with white TINTEX crystals in hot boiling water...??? Ill have to try that one... Up here, nooks and crannies get the treatement from a brush with long brissles..."flings the crap out"... Claude ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 5:06 PM Subject: Re: destinking the computers. > > Date: 16 May 2001 0:50:25 +0100 > > From: "Iggy Drougge" > > Subject: Re: destinking the computers. > > To: jpero > > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > jpero skrev: > > > > My A4000 came out of the household of an aging smoker, who was losing his > > tests of grey hair. Not only did the machine smell (a lot!), it was also > > coated with tar and other airbourne substances, into which his hair had stuck. > > Then there was the coffee and dead flies in the keyboard. > > In any case, I and a mate stripped the machine down as thoroughly as possible, > > then proceeded to use a brush to wipe the dust off the PCBs and remove the > > sticky film with some kind of clinical alcohol and tops (the kind you put in > > your ear). > > Qtips or ear swabs is what they are called. > > > Ah yes, we washed and scrubbed the case like you would with any dirty plate in > > the kitchen sink. > > In that case with A4000 case it's simple smooth case with few > crevices. Take apart Mac II, you will understand what I'm facing > with this task. I once cleaned plastic grills for a household fan > (that type that used round rotating vanes to direct air around via > small motor.) Very tedious and hard, imagine that brushing hard with > old toothbrush on small square of hole getting all grime and dust > out. Mac II case is like that most of cavities are hidden. > > To few who have stinky cigarette-coated and others that is > spoiled with grease films (as from kitchen enviroments) machines, > mechanical cleaning and harsh chemicals and active chemicals is only > way to break down those dried tough rancid oils (hardened like > linseed oil on wood). > > Once I tried the major cleaning on a minitower peecee case (just > that it, threw out working PSU. (!!) ) of cigarette smoke stain. > Plastic sucks up stain+stink while painted surfaces does to > small degree. Even well scrubbed and very C-A-R-E-FULLY few times > with many cleaners and alcohol, lots of paper towels. I can't get > smell totally out. Actually still emits stink strongly even surfaces > is spotlessly clean and towels came up clean after last few > days of off and on attempts. Gave up and traded it away for small > "cash" towards other stuff. > > The multi-year of kitchen grease coating is TOUGH! Nothing we can > find will touch it, boiling it in water and some soap got it softened > enough to scrape'n scrub off with some work. That yuck was on > kitchen plastic fan to get noise and viberation down in a college apt > kitchen fan once, clean fan ran much better and quieter on oiled > motor. :-) > > Mildew and fungus growth matter are stuck to the all surfaces and has > to be removed by oxidizing action, scrubbing merely remove some of > them. > > Cheers, > > Wizard > > > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > From chomko at greenbelt.com Tue May 15 21:08:00 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: looking for SS-50 people, especially non-SWTPC Message-ID: <3B01E0FF.8403DB17@greenbelt.com> I'm wondering who collects SS-50 bus stuff. I'm interested in who has systems like Smoke Signal Broadcasting (Chieftain), Helix, Gimix, Midwest Science Instruments (MSI). Thanks, Eric From red at bears.org Tue May 15 21:11:47 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: Token Ring coax? In-Reply-To: <572.536T200T263569optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 16 May 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > All right, is it compatible with IBM TR? Apollo Token Ring (Domain Ring) is NOT the same as IBM Token Ring. They can be hammered to use some of the same cabling (type 1 and those awful gender-neutral box connectors), but they are not signal compatible. ok r. From jss at ou.edu Tue May 15 21:14:58 2001 From: jss at ou.edu (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: Using audio cassette In-Reply-To: <01051610111700.02061@workshop> References: <01051610111700.02061@workshop> Message-ID: <989979298.3b01e2a2067b5@email.ou.edu> Quoting David Findlay : > I am a new member of the list in digest mode. I have read quite a > bit about the early homebrew computer club days and processor > techniques. I am currently designing my own computer Cool. I want to do that someday. A friend and I have been toying with the idea of building a computer out of relays. > and want to come up with a easy cheap method of mass storage. I > have been thinking about hacking a tape recorder's read/write/ > erase heads and support equipment into my computer. I would just > make a small modem thing to turn my data to sound and record it > on the tape. Sounds good to me; lots of micros used cassette tapes for storage. I've never done it myself, so I'm not of much help I guess :-). But it *has* been done, so you should be able to do it. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@ou.edu From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue May 15 21:26:20 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: looking for SS-50 people, especially non-SWTPC In-Reply-To: <3B01E0FF.8403DB17@greenbelt.com> References: <3B01E0FF.8403DB17@greenbelt.com> Message-ID: >I'm wondering who collects SS-50 bus stuff. I'm interested in who has >systems >like Smoke Signal Broadcasting (Chieftain), Helix, Gimix, Midwest >Science >Instruments (MSI). Obviously you know about mine already! BTW, did you see my note concerning the floppy controller? Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue May 15 21:37:56 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: disk archivers In-Reply-To: <3ACE80E2.14533.B5C4203@localhost> References: <3ACE80E2.14533.B5C4203@localhost> Message-ID: I finally had to dig through my disks for some utilities tonight because someone asked me to send them an image of a 720k disk. I found both Teledisk and DIM and was able to make the image using the PC emulation on my Powerbook. Teledisk seemed to be attempting to work but it reported errors reading track 0 but kept on going anyway. The version is 2.12...is this a relatively recent version of the shareware Teledisk? DIM made the disk image and then recreated the disk without a single problem...not too bad considering the alien hardware it was running on. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 15 21:44:33 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: destinking the computers. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >The problem trying to remove the odor of cigarette smoke is that nicotine is >not water soluble. I once cleaned our families smoke eater with kerosene to >remove the nicotine from the electrostatic plates. >I don't remember the name but there is a cleaner used on electronics that's >made from orange peels. > >pointer to degreaser made from citrus peels >http://www.dep.state.fl.us/dwm/programs/p2/factsheets/6terpene.pdf > >More information about commercial product. >http://www.ecki.com/vst/prdt487.htm Good links, the immediate problem I see for most people is that the pure stuff is clearly the best, leaves no residue etc., but is typically not available to consumers. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 15 21:45:51 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: destinking the computers. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >it down the road in the back of a pickup mostly disassembled at speeds in >excess of 45MPH... And it still FREAKING REEKS! I'm not making a joke, but >my Wang really smells... And its a funky smell, sometimes not present, and While I am sure the pickup ride must have been fun, if you don't wash your wang its going to stay stinky. BTW most janitorial supply places will have an assortment of odor removal and neutralizing agents. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 15 21:35:43 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: My IBM 1130 In-Reply-To: <200105151827.f4FIRf101138@mnmai05.mn.mediaone.net> References: <200105151644.f4FGitL26785@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: >Is there still interest out there for a complete IBM 1130 system (that's >1131 processor, 1132 line printer, and 1442 card reader/punch)? I have it, Wow, I spent quite a few hours in front on one of those. So slow that speed doesn't have much meaning, but still very usefull and powerfull. I sure hope it goes to a nice home, and can be put into operational condition. From at258 at osfn.org Tue May 15 21:46:36 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: 544 In-Reply-To: <003d01c0ddab$8d631180$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> Message-ID: The last 3 weeks have been a bit busy. We recieved a very nice B series IBM AS/400, plus docs. A System 36 PC is also promised later. We picked up an abandoned Wang VS-85 system in Wells River, Vt. BNo power in building so everything had to be broken down with a trouble light on a long extension cord. 3 CDC 9766 drives, one for parts I think, plus the cpu, an 8 inch archiver and some unknown bits. A nice find was an Apollo MSD cabinet cabled into the system. We also found a new type of Wang terminal, the 2866, which we had not seen before. We visited Syosset, NY to pick up a Datamaster that Rich Cini gave us, and this morning receieved a frantic e-mail about some DEC equipment in Danvers. The owning company was transferring some of its operations to Texas, and we were given what amounted to a small DEC computer room - platters, tapes, platter cabinets, a CDC 9762 drive, a micro-Vax, a PDP-11/53, and a 3-cabinet PDP11/83, plus a large number of orange and grey manuals. From jss at ou.edu Tue May 15 21:47:52 2001 From: jss at ou.edu (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: Storage medium for longevity of data? Message-ID: <989981272.3b01ea581d445@email.ou.edu> This topic came up on slashdot a week or two back, and I have been thinking about it ever since. And it's even on-topic, when asked a certain way. How resilient are today's storage media? In particular, is our classic computing data (tape/disk images, scanned documents, etc.) archived adequately enough that it's going to survive the next few centuries? One slashdot poster postulated that some EMR event (possibly the next magnetic pole reversal, or some sort of solar phenomenon) could wipe out nearly all of our magnetically stored data. Another user pointed out that even CD-ROMs expire eventually. One thing that came to my mind was our venerable friend the paper tape (an example of why it pays to remember the history of computing). I think it makes a darn good solution for archiving data and locking it away in a vault for a few millenia, provided some research was put into developing a tape paper (or other material) that would last longer and store data more densely than our traditional paper tape mechanisms. Any thoughts? -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@ou.edu From per_son at fuse.net Tue May 15 22:03:59 2001 From: per_son at fuse.net (per_son) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: Intel 4004 Message-ID: <004a01c0ddb4$da4cec60$b228920a@tbird> Dear Dwight, I have just obtained a C4004 and its supporting chips and am very interested in learning how to write some code for it. I read from http://www.classiccmp.org/mail-archive/classiccmp/1999-02/0689.html that you have made some tools to do this. I am an EET student so I don't have a whole lot of experience in programming. I have written machine code for the Motorola 6800 series but that's about it. I am VERY interested in learning more about it though. If I can pull it off I would like to do this as a final project for school. My main problems are actually writing and compiling code and coming up with the two phase clock that this chip requires. If you can help me at all it would be GREATLY appreciated! I am willing to pay for your software as I am sure it took a lot of hard work to create it. Thanks, Josh -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010515/2b23982e/attachment.html From chomko at greenbelt.com Tue May 15 22:13:31 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: My IBM 1130 References: <200105151827.f4FIRf101138@mnmai05.mn.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <3B01F05B.8DA9D408@greenbelt.com> I'm trying to find your system on the IBM timeline: http://hammer.prohosting.com/~penz/computer/ibmtime.htm I actually worked on a Data General NOVA that ran an IBM 1130 emulator. All these years I thought an 1130 actually looked like a IBM System/3 mini. Speaking of which the above timeline does mention the System/3 but I'll be darned if I can find any info on the web about it. Anyway I'm glad to actually have that straightened out. Eric bakcc@bigoakhill.com wrote: > Is there still interest out there for a complete IBM 1130 system (that's > 1131 processor, 1132 line printer, and 1442 card reader/punch)? I have it, > and need to part with it... just can't justify it taking up all the space > anymore. Check it out... photos at www.bigoakhill.com, go there, click on > "for sale", scoll down and click on the 1130. > > -Bruce Keller From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 15 22:20:05 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: disk archivers In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Hellige" at May 15, 2001 10:37:56 PM Message-ID: <200105160320.UAA14109@shell1.aracnet.com> > I finally had to dig through my disks for some utilities > tonight because someone asked me to send them an image of a 720k > disk. I found both Teledisk and DIM and was able to make the image > using the PC emulation on my Powerbook. Teledisk seemed to be > attempting to work but it reported errors reading track 0 but kept on > going anyway. The version is 2.12...is this a relatively recent > version of the shareware Teledisk? DIM made the disk image and then > recreated the disk without a single problem...not too bad considering > the alien hardware it was running on. > > Jeff Cool, now if only I had a way to hook a 5.25" flopppy drive up to my G4/450 PowerMac :^) Anyone ever try anything like this on DOSemu under Linux on a x86 box? I've been meaning to try it out, but haven't gotten a chance to get DOSemu up and running on my Linux box. Zane From ndiablo at diablonet.net Tue May 15 17:51:49 2001 From: ndiablo at diablonet.net (Netdiablo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: Apollo Token Ring Message-ID: <3B01B305.4275E1A2@diablonet.net> As stated before, this is a just a daisy-chain ring type network (that is, the ring is both physical and logical) that operated using a token-passing scheme. It was proprietary to Apollo as far as I know. I've got a few of these cards laying around, unfortunately without machines to go with them. They're full-length ISA-bus cards with something like a 6W2 (six pins and two BNC-type connectors ala a 13W3 monitor connector) that one would connect a small dongle to. The dongle has two BNC ports on it ("in" and "out"). Interesting stuff... --Sean Caron (root@diablonet.net) | http://www.diablonet.net From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 15 22:31:57 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: Using audio cassette In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 15 May 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Haave you considered using magnetic tape to build your own drum memory? > Would this even work? I don't know, I've only considered it. kinda doubtful BTW, we have a [damaged] drum and head unit from a mag drum in our collection of junk at the college. We're not about to part with it, but it is beautiful to behold. > I find many old multi-track audio tape recorders/players in thrift/charity > stores these days. Perhaps you can hack one of those? How about reworking the heads and using an 8-track? Then you could have 8 bit wide tape storage :-) If you look through the magazines from 25 years ago, there is plenty of info on building audio storage interfaces (Tarbell, Kansas City, ...) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From chomko at greenbelt.com Tue May 15 22:46:45 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: looking for SS-50 people, especially non-SWTPC References: <3B01E0FF.8403DB17@greenbelt.com> Message-ID: <3B01F824.729FDA3B@greenbelt.com> Jeff Hellige wrote: > >I'm wondering who collects SS-50 bus stuff. I'm interested in who has > >systems > >like Smoke Signal Broadcasting (Chieftain), Helix, Gimix, Midwest > >Science > >Instruments (MSI). > > Obviously you know about mine already! BTW, did you see my > note concerning the floppy controller? > No, I must have misssed it. Please resend, off list if need be. Eric > > Jeff > -- > Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue May 15 23:15:38 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: My IBM 1130 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Urinal cookie? On Tue, 15 May 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > >Is there still interest out there for a complete IBM 1130 system (that's > >1131 processor, 1132 line printer, and 1442 card reader/punch)? I have it, > > Wow, I spent quite a few hours in front on one of those. So slow that speed > doesn't have much meaning, but still very usefull and powerfull. I sure > hope it goes to a nice home, and can be put into operational condition. > > > From foo at siconic.com Tue May 15 23:05:40 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: Using audio cassette In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 16 May 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > Are you planning to have some kind of automatic high-speed seeking (I > assume so, since waiting 45 minutes (one side of a C90) to read a > block is rediculous). In which case you've not only got to modify your > transport to allow for electronic selection of a fast forward/rewind > mode that keeps the heads in contact with the tape, but also you've > got to have some kind of block marker (maybe just a gap in the data on > the tape) that can be detected when the tape is moving at high speed. > It's possible (and has been done many times), but it's not a trivial > problem. You're assuming he won't do something clever such as add an electronic counter so he can fast forward to just before the desired block? > In general the seeking speed is about 5 times the normal play/record > speed on this sort of drive. That's still 9 minutes to seek from one > end of the tape to the other. This will get boring fast. As I suggested, he can use the magnetic tape to wrap around some drum to create a cool drum memory device :) There can even be multiple tracks, with either one moveable head or multiple heads for faster access. > You do realise that any 8 bit micro will easily go faster than an > audio-cassette based storage system. I think the intent here is to create a more classic-type design rather than a modernish design. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From donm at cts.com Wed May 16 00:19:35 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: Console bulkhead battery source In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 15 May 2001, Paul Thompson wrote: > > I have a BA215 DECsystem 5400 whose NiCad battery pack for the TOY clock > and console settings has finally given up the ghost. It consists of three > AAA 1.2V 180mAh NiCads shrinkwrapped together leading to a Molex 2695 two > lead connector. > > 1) Does anyone know a source for these other than Compaq? I cringe to > think what they would charge for one. > > I admit that I am something of an ignoramous regarding electronics and > read with envy when others post about finding easy fixes for blown power > supplies and the like. With this in mind: > > 2) does anyone know easily offhand if other 1.2V battery packs could be > used in its place? There seem to be two or four cell AAA battery packs > available on the web but would these work in this scenario without damage > to anything? I did not find any three cell packs. What are the rules of > thumb for what would or wouldn't work? Get the four cell package, use your razor knife to remove the fourth battery, resolder the lead from the fourth to the third cell and install. - don > Somewhat related question just because I am curious: > > 3) is the console bulkhead on my 5400 the same as is used on other QBUS > DSSI Mayfair MicroVAX 3x00? Mine has a part number 70-25775-02. I guess > I would be surprised if it was different. > > > -- > > From sipke at wxs.nl Wed May 16 01:42:49 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: Intel 4004 References: <004a01c0ddb4$da4cec60$b228920a@tbird> Message-ID: <001801c0ddd3$6ce8adc0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> There are a few scanned datasheets (4004 + 4040) on my website..... Go to the filesection.... Sipke de Wal ----------------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx ----------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: per_son To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 5:03 AM Subject: Re: Intel 4004 Dear Dwight, I have just obtained a C4004 and its supporting chips and am very interested in learning how to write some code for it. I read from http://www.classiccmp.org/mail-archive/classiccmp/1999-02/0689.html that you have made some tools to do this. I am an EET student so I don't have a whole lot of experience in programming. I have written machine code for the Motorola 6800 series but that's about it. I am VERY interested in learning more about it though. If I can pull it off I would like to do this as a final project for school. My main problems are actually writing and compiling code and coming up with the two phase clock that this chip requires. If you can help me at all it would be GREATLY appreciated! I am willing to pay for your software as I am sure it took a lot of hard work to create it. Thanks, Josh -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010516/073bfc0b/attachment.html From dogas at bellsouth.net Wed May 16 01:43:37 2001 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: looking for SS-50 people, especially non-SWTPC References: <3B01E0FF.8403DB17@greenbelt.com> <3B01F824.729FDA3B@greenbelt.com> Message-ID: <009101c0ddd3$89fc1190$6762d6d1@DOMAIN> no, not off list! > > Jeff Hellige wrote: > > > Obviously you know about mine already! BTW, did you see my > > note concerning the floppy controller? > > > > No, I must have misssed it. Please resend, off list if need be. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue May 15 18:04:07 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: FDCs -- was Re: TELEDISK Problem In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: FDCs -- was Re: TELEDISK Problem" (May 14, 19:03) References: Message-ID: <10105160004.ZM15874@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> I've not had the time I hoped to sort through my FDCs* and pick likely candidates for 8" operation (and SD for 5.25" as well), but I do want to thank Tony, Allison, Don, and everyone else who provided useful information. * Partly because I spent most of the weekend repairing two 8" drives -- one of which was only bust because of my own carelessness :-( -- and sorting out surplus equipment which I'll offer to the list in due course. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue May 15 17:51:52 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: 74xx orgin In-Reply-To: "Sipke de Wal" "Re: 74xx orgin" (May 15, 20:54) References: <3B0132E2.27102.624C7476@localhost> <000d01c0dd70$7a8e5dc0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <10105152351.ZM15863@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 15, 20:54, Sipke de Wal wrote: > If guess Fairchild was the company that first made the 54/74xx series > The 54xx had mil. specs the 74xx had consumer specs. Nope, TI made the first 54/74. Fairchild made other things, some of them before TI, but not 54/74 TTL (a least, not before Texas). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed May 16 04:48:53 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:32 2005 Subject: processors. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010516024819.01d732c0@mail.zipcon.net> looks like they are all spoken for, I will be getting back to those that have already emailed me to make arrangements to got them to y'all. :) From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed May 16 04:50:48 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: Fwd: Completed Floppy Disk Controller Design Message-ID: For those interested in the SWTPc and SS-50 bus machines: >Status: RO >Sender: fufu-l@telia.com >Reply-To: fufu-l@telia.com >Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 08:47:25 -0700 >From: "Michael Holley" >To: Multiple recipients of fufu-l >Subject: Completed Floppy Disk Controller Design > >I have finished the design of a new floppy disk controller for the S30 I/O >bus. The card emulates the SWTPC DC-4 with a few additions. The design uses >a Western Digital WD2797 FDC that supports double density format. The WD2797 >is a superset of the WD1797 and WD1691 and is software compatible. > >The card will fit in an old 6800-style case or the newer 6809-style case >with the connectors coming out the back. The clock frequency is programmable >so the card should work with 3.5-inch drives. > >The design is complete but needs to be reviewed.(There are errors and >omissions.) After a few weeks of review I will have 2 (or 4) boards made. I >am looking for someone who has a system with SS30 I/O bus to help debug the >board. After the design is tested I will order 10 or so boards with >silk-screen and solder mask. > >The design documents can be found at: >http://members.aol.com/swtpc6800/FDC2/FDC_Index.htm >I still have some design documents in process and will add them when they >are done. > >The difficulty I was having with a discrete logic design was board layout. I >was going to use some 20-pin programmable logic devices such as the 16V8 but >programming them is difficult. (I have an old Data I/O Model 29 programmer >but I haven't turned it on in 10 years.) I was looking for an in-circuit >programmable device. > >I decided to use the Xilinx XC9500 CPLD family. They are low cost ($6), the >development software is free, and the programming hardware is simple. >Another reason is that I have worked with these devices since they were >developed by Plus Logic in the late 1980s. Somewhere I have a Plus Logic >2020 engineering sample. The development software is based on the ABEL and >Synario software that I developed at Data I/O. > >I chose the XC9572, which has 72 Macrocells and comes in an 84-pin PLCC >package. This device holds all of the discrete logic devices needed in the >design. The timer IC and one-shot IC are external along with the buffers. I >could have connected the disk drive directly to the CPLD but I felt the low >cost buffers would be easier to replace in the future. The device is >re-programmable so design changes are easy. I am only using about half of >the device now. > >For the PCB layout I went with ExpressPCB because they have free software >and they do low cost double-sided boards. A friend of mine has had good luck >with them. I have access to very high-end PCB layout software at work but I >want the design to be public domain. (If I published the design files in >PADS format you would have to buy a $10,000 PADS PowerPCB software package >to modify them.) > >After the layout is done I will publish the PBC file. If someone wants to >review the current design I can email you the file. > >The only rare part in the design is the WD2797; I bought 10 of them from BG >Micro before I started the design. The rest of the parts are available from >Digi-Key with exception of a few ICs that I found at Jameco. The complete >kit of parts cost $50 plus about $40 for the circuit board. I am going to >acquire enough parts to build 10 boards. > >I still need to write the calibration procedure and add the required test >point to the board. I just noticed a trace clearance problem near pin one of >the 34-pin connectors. > >The DDEN line is controlled by the CPLD so we can add the logic for MS-DOS >floppies. This logic in not in the CPLD yet. >----------------------------------------------- >Michael Holley holley@hyperlynx.com >Innoveda >Phone: (425) 869-2320 Fax: (425) 881-1008 >Direct Line (425) 497-5075 >----------------------------------------------- >-- >FLEX & UniFLEX Users' mailing List >http://www.flexusergroup.com/ >http://w1.503.telia.com/~u50302970/ > > -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed May 16 04:53:53 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: disk archivers In-Reply-To: <200105160320.UAA14109@shell1.aracnet.com> References: <200105160320.UAA14109@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: >Cool, now if only I had a way to hook a 5.25" flopppy drive up to my G4/450 >PowerMac :^) Once I get the H-100 back running I"m going to run some tests with both programs to see if I can make images using it. It and the TRS-80 Model 2000 are the only IBM-clone type machines I have that have 5-1/4" drives and a hard disk. Now if there were a PC equivelent to DMS and I could get DMS to read PC disks in the Amiga 1020 disk drive on my A500 Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 16 04:52:22 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: My IBM 1130 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Do you mean the big mints? I don't follow what you mean. >Urinal cookie? > >On Tue, 15 May 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > >> >Is there still interest out there for a complete IBM 1130 system (that's >> >1131 processor, 1132 line printer, and 1442 card reader/punch)? I have it, >> >> Wow, I spent quite a few hours in front on one of those. So slow that speed >> doesn't have much meaning, but still very usefull and powerfull. I sure >> hope it goes to a nice home, and can be put into operational condition. From thompson at mail.athenet.net Wed May 16 08:20:42 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: Console bulkhead battery source In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Good idea. With other battery packs I tried to use off the shelf batteries to make a new pack but had very poor luck in getting the solder to stick to the battery. It seemed like a spot weld was used to attach the wire rather than normal solder. I assume that your idea uses the existing leads in the battery pack to get around this problem. On Tue, 15 May 2001, Don Maslin wrote: > Get the four cell package, use your razor knife to remove the fourth > battery, resolder the lead from the fourth to the third cell and > install. -- From chomko at greenbelt.com Wed May 16 08:29:01 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: looking for SS-50 people, especially non-SWTPC References: <3B01E0FF.8403DB17@greenbelt.com> <3B01F824.729FDA3B@greenbelt.com> <009101c0ddd3$89fc1190$6762d6d1@DOMAIN> Message-ID: <3B02809D.10F9BDC4@greenbelt.com> Oops, sorry, didn't mean to exclude anyone. I believe Jeff did resend it. Thanks! Eric Mike wrote: > no, not off list! > > > > > Jeff Hellige wrote: > > > > > Obviously you know about mine already! BTW, did you see my > > > note concerning the floppy controller? > > > > > > > No, I must have misssed it. Please resend, off list if need be. From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 16 09:56:13 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: Rescue in Madison/Monona, WI, USA Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010516095126.00ae2ef0@pc> A friend is moving from the Midwest to the West coast, so he's liberating himself of all his antique computers except for his IMSAI. This means the rest goes... this includes two Kaypros, a TRS-80 Model I w/Expansion Interface, an Apple ///, and maybe a TRS-80 Color Computer, plus various other stuff. No charge if you say "John Foust told me about it." :-) They're having a rummage sale starting tomorrow. Anything left goes on the curb. Questions to Mike and Becky Winter . (Battlebot freaks may recognize his name.) Location is http://www.switchboard.com/bin/cginbr.dll?ID=101809742&MEM=1&FUNC=MORE&TYPE=1007&T=madison&S=WI - John From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Wed May 16 10:18:20 2001 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: My IBM 1130 Message-ID: The correct term is "urinal CAKE" not cookie... it's that round thing in urinals that is an air-freshener, etc. At least I believe thats what it does... I sure as hell have no intention to sniff it to determine the accuracy of this.. Will J _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From vance at ikickass.org Wed May 16 10:27:48 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Vance Dereksen) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: I *need* a Rack In-Reply-To: <3B019BF2.7B119449@home.com> Message-ID: I could use one of those. I will be down in your area the weekend of June, 9. Could I buy one off you? Peace... Sridhar On Tue, 15 May 2001, ip500 wrote: > I've got several tall ~6' or so HP racks ..all with internal power and > maybe fans as well. Nice shape too. $50 picked up in Roanoke, VA > Craig > > LFessen106@aol.com wrote: > > > > Does anyone in the list here on the east coast have a 19" rack they are > > looking to get rid of? I really could put on of those to goo use. > > > > -Linc Fessenden > > > > In The Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... > > > > Calculating in binary code is as easy as 01,10,11. > From vance at ikickass.org Wed May 16 10:38:53 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Vance Dereksen) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: disk archivers In-Reply-To: <200105160320.UAA14109@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: I think I remember seeing somewhere a USB <-----> Floppy case. Like the floppy drive sits in an external case, and has a USB floppy controller sitting inside the case with it, and runs just fine on a Mac. Peace... Sridhar On Tue, 15 May 2001 healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > Cool, now if only I had a way to hook a 5.25" flopppy drive up to my G4/450 > PowerMac :^) > > Anyone ever try anything like this on DOSemu under Linux on a x86 box? I've > been meaning to try it out, but haven't gotten a chance to get DOSemu up and > running on my Linux box. > > Zane > From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Wed May 16 10:27:34 2001 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: destinking the computers. Message-ID: Well, for what it's worth, my mom and her friend are janitors for banks, and as such, I could probably get about anything... Don't leave out good old Orange Clean, which is even made right here in my state... I'd imagine a lot of those cleaning things are available at Grainger, too... Will J _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From norm.anheier at pnl.gov Wed May 16 10:50:48 2001 From: norm.anheier at pnl.gov (Norm Anheier) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: Need help identifying a MOSTEK chip Message-ID: <3B02A1D7.C8A57A40@pnl.gov> I need help identifying the function (ie what is it!) of a MOSTEK chip, part number MK2488P with date code (?) 7429. If it's 1974, its a little early for my data books. Thanks Norm From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed May 16 11:25:35 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: disk archivers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <01May16.123652edt.119044@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> On Wednesday, May 16, 2001, at 11:38 AM, Vance Dereksen wrote: > I think I remember seeing somewhere a USB <-----> Floppy case. Like the > floppy drive sits in an external case, and has a USB floppy controller > sitting inside the case with it, and runs just fine on a Mac. I've got a USB floppy, made by Teac, on my B/W G3 but have never seen such a thing for 5-1/4" drives. All of the USB cases I've ever seen did little more than convert the signals for an IDE drive to USB with an included converter card in the case. Given that Macs have never used the 5-1/4" format as a whole I would be real suprised if there was such a thing. One interesting sidenote is that the ProDos format has continued to be supported on the Mac all this time, even to the ability to format disks with it. Jeff From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 16 11:26:34 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: Inside Altair BASIC - interesting! Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010516111720.00e76220@pc> http://www.rjh.org.uk/altair/4k/ I especially like the way he points out that the error numbers from the pre-Microsoft 4K BASIC are still used in Visual BASIC today. Related articles: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/18915.html http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/18909.html - John From dogas at bellsouth.net Wed May 16 11:27:31 2001 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: Apple lisa for sale pretty cheap.... References: Message-ID: <00f501c0de25$1be5b8d0$6762d6d1@DOMAIN> Ran accross this page yesterday: http://www.alphacomputers.com/store/page32.html looks like one parts-grade Lisa computer available delivered for $58... runners... on your mark, get set, go! ;) - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 16 11:34:50 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: Using audio cassette In-Reply-To: References: <01051610111700.02061@workshop> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010516113338.00b50aa0@pc> At 05:26 PM 5/15/01 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: >Haave you considered using magnetic tape to build your own drum memory? >Would this even work? I don't know, I've only considered it. >I find many old multi-track audio tape recorders/players in thrift/charity >stores these days. Perhaps you can hack one of those? I thought it would be a lot easier to convert data to tones, build those into WAV files, and then record the WAVs to a CD-R as files. To restore the data, just reverse the process. - John From vance at ikickass.org Wed May 16 11:40:42 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Vance Dereksen) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: My IBM 1130 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Urinal cakes are made of paradichlorobenzene (at least most of them are) which is the same material from which mothballs are made. It soaks up odor, but it doesn't "freshen" or scent the air, usually. Peace... Sridhar On Wed, 16 May 2001, Will Jennings wrote: > The correct term is "urinal CAKE" not cookie... it's that round thing in > urinals that is an air-freshener, etc. At least I believe thats what it > does... I sure as hell have no intention to sniff it to determine the > accuracy of this.. > > Will J > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed May 16 11:51:32 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp me) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: Console bulkhead battery source Message-ID: <382055447.990031892709.JavaMail.root@web622-wrb.mail.com> simpler... buy a threecell pack intented for cordless phones. Ratshack sells them and there are various form factors but they work. FYI don't worry the capacity, anything will do even three AA nicads (500mah) in a battery box(holder). Allison ------Original Message------ From: Paul Thompson To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Sent: May 16, 2001 1:20:42 PM GMT Subject: Re: Console bulkhead battery source Good idea. With other battery packs I tried to use off the shelf batteries to make a new pack but had very poor luck in getting the solder to stick to the battery. It seemed like a spot weld was used to attach the wire rather than normal solder. I assume that your idea uses the existing leads in the battery pack to get around this problem. On Tue, 15 May 2001, Don Maslin wrote: > Get the four cell package, use your razor knife to remove the fourth > battery, resolder the lead from the fourth to the third cell and > install. -- From jcook793 at yahoo.com Wed May 16 12:02:30 2001 From: jcook793 at yahoo.com (John Cook) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: Apple lisa for sale pretty cheap.... In-Reply-To: <00f501c0de25$1be5b8d0$6762d6d1@DOMAIN> Message-ID: <20010516170230.40529.qmail@web12508.mail.yahoo.com> Well, I (like others on this list I suppose) ordered the thing. I went back to the computer list and noticed it's still there... I wonder what will happen when it turns out that I was the 15th person to order this machine? Thanks for the link though! It was fun playing the Lisa Lottery! :) -John --- Mike wrote: > Ran accross this page yesterday: > > http://www.alphacomputers.com/store/page32.html > > looks like one parts-grade Lisa computer available delivered for > $58... > > runners... on your mark, get set, go! > > ;) > - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed May 16 12:08:57 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: Apple lisa for sale pretty cheap.... In-Reply-To: <20010516170230.40529.qmail@web12508.mail.yahoo.com> References: <00f501c0de25$1be5b8d0$6762d6d1@DOMAIN> Message-ID: <3B02D049.21297.F7C6C9@localhost> Date sent: Wed, 16 May 2001 10:02:30 -0700 (PDT) From: John Cook Subject: Re: Apple lisa for sale pretty cheap.... To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Send reply to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Well, I (like others on this list I suppose) ordered the thing. I went > back to the computer list and noticed it's still there... I wonder > what will happen when it turns out that I was the 15th person to order > this machine? > > Thanks for the link though! It was fun playing the Lisa Lottery! :) Now, check this: I ordered it twice ... two order entries of one lisa each ... (I hit the back button once to often). So let's see what happenes. :)) H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed May 16 12:10:57 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: Console bulkhead battery source In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010516100407.00aa5440@208.226.86.10> At 08:36 PM 5/15/01 -0500, Paul Thompson wrote: >I have a BA215 DECsystem 5400 whose NiCad battery pack for the TOY clock >and console settings has finally given up the ghost. It consists of three >AAA 1.2V 180mAh NiCads shrinkwrapped together leading to a Molex 2695 two >lead connector. Ah yes, the dead battery syndrome... >1) Does anyone know a source for these other than Compaq? I cringe to >think what they would charge for one. They are quite expensive as the last time I checked (about a year ago) Compaq wanted you to buy the whole bulkhead for $175.00 >I admit that I am something of an ignoramous regarding electronics and >read with envy when others post about finding easy fixes for blown power >supplies and the like. With this in mind: Not to worry, we're here to help. >2) does anyone know easily offhand if other 1.2V battery packs could be >used in its place? There seem to be two or four cell AAA battery packs >available on the web but would these work in this scenario without damage >to anything? I did not find any three cell packs. What are the rules of >thumb for what would or wouldn't work? Any similarly sized NiCd cells will work. I've heard rumors that there is a Panasonic wireless phone pack that is the same but I've not found it. I ordered some NiCd cells from www.digikey.com and replaced them. I should probably sit down and do a couple dozen of these (it would be faster) and offer them on the House of VAX site :-) >Somewhat related question just because I am curious: > >3) is the console bulkhead on my 5400 the same as is used on other QBUS >DSSI Mayfair MicroVAX 3x00? Mine has a part number 70-25775-02. I guess >I would be surprised if it was different. Actually it turns out they are different. Weird I know. The KN220 console has a wider connector for the CPU side than the Mayfair connector. (I've got a DECSystem 5500) I have a spare bulkhead but I don't know the state of its battery pack. --Chuck From fernande at internet1.net Wed May 16 12:33:10 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: My IBM 1130 References: Message-ID: <3B02B9D6.6709126B@internet1.net> I haven't been following this thread, but WOW.... I don't even want to know how an IBM 1130 got here to urinals!! Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Will Jennings wrote: > > The correct term is "urinal CAKE" not cookie... it's that round thing in > urinals that is an air-freshener, etc. At least I believe thats what it > does... I sure as hell have no intention to sniff it to determine the > accuracy of this.. > > Will J > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From sipke at wxs.nl Wed May 16 12:36:35 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: 74xx orgin References: <3B0132E2.27102.624C7476@localhost> <000d01c0dd70$7a8e5dc0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> <10105152351.ZM15863@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <002901c0de2e$c2108ba0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> You are right I screwed up there ....... And I was also wrong about the 9xxx series being DTL But IIRC Fairchild did make the first TTL 9xxx series as a successor to the 9xx DTL. They did have some quality problems with their TTL an so TI made the day cause TI did a better job on quality control. If you build a small design with say 3 or 5 TTL chips a dropout of say half a percent will not be a big problem, but if you have a design with 100+ chips, on average only half of your products will work after production the other half going DOA and in need of repair. Maybe TI let the military pay for their quality control cause of the rigorous mil. specs and sold the acceptable parts as commercial, since they would then also be in the position to cast out the really bad ones. The military would pay a premium for the rigorously tested material. and propably paid for the development of the qualitycontrol system in the first place. Anyhow TI started using a leading 5-series to signify mil. specs and a leading 7 for commerical. Sipke de Wal ----------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx ----------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Pete Turnbull To: Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 12:51 AM Subject: Re: 74xx orgin > On May 15, 20:54, Sipke de Wal wrote: > > If guess Fairchild was the company that first made the 54/74xx series > > The 54xx had mil. specs the 74xx had consumer specs. > > Nope, TI made the first 54/74. Fairchild made other things, some of them > before TI, but not 54/74 TTL (a least, not before Texas). > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 16 12:39:56 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: My IBM 1130 In-Reply-To: Re: My IBM 1130 (Will Jennings) References: Message-ID: <15106.47980.574630.784115@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 16, Will Jennings wrote: > The correct term is "urinal CAKE" not cookie... Oh, that's an entirely different product. The urinal *cookies* are only intended as a light snack, or perhaps for...dipping. "Stays crispy in milk!" [dave ducks under his desk to avoid being pelted with flying fruit] -Dave McGuire From bakcc at bigoakhill.com Wed May 16 12:40:32 2001 From: bakcc at bigoakhill.com (bakcc@bigoakhill.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: IBM 1130 Update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200105161743.f4GHgx101848@mnmai05.mn.mediaone.net> Since I've receive *many* requests, comments, and questions about the IBM 1130 system, I've updated the page about the 1130 on the web site with a bunch more information. Same place: www.bigoakhill.com, click on ForSale. thx, -Bruce Keller From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 16 13:08:51 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: Using audio cassette In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at May 15, 1 05:26:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 698 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010516/e768ce99/attachment.ksh From foo at siconic.com Wed May 16 12:17:18 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: Apple lisa for sale pretty cheap.... In-Reply-To: <20010516170230.40529.qmail@web12508.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 May 2001, John Cook wrote: > Well, I (like others on this list I suppose) ordered the thing. I went > back to the computer list and noticed it's still there... I wonder > what will happen when it turns out that I was the 15th person to order > this machine? A sudden drastic increase in the sale price quite possibly :( Or perhaps a sudden appearance of a certain keyboard-less, mouse-less Lisa on eBay. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From dogas at bellsouth.net Wed May 16 13:18:35 2001 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: Apple lisa for sale pretty cheap.... References: <20010516170230.40529.qmail@web12508.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <018901c0de34$9fe7ad00$6762d6d1@DOMAIN> > > Thanks for the link though! It was fun playing the Lisa Lottery! :) > > -John No problem, just please don't tell me if it turns out to be a Lisa 1 system... ;) Good luck! - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net From donm at cts.com Wed May 16 13:30:40 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: Console bulkhead battery source In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 16 May 2001, Paul Thompson wrote: > > > Good idea. > > With other battery packs I tried to use off the shelf batteries to make a > new pack but had very poor luck in getting the solder to stick to the > battery. It seemed like a spot weld was used to attach the wire rather > than normal solder. Certainly a spot weld is the preferable means, but I have had pretty good success with scratching up the surface, fluxing well, and using a large enough iron to heat that area quickly. - don > I assume that your idea uses the existing leads in the battery pack to get > around this problem. > > On Tue, 15 May 2001, Don Maslin wrote: > > > Get the four cell package, use your razor knife to remove the fourth > > battery, resolder the lead from the fourth to the third cell and > > install. > > > -- > > From donm at cts.com Wed May 16 13:39:52 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: My IBM 1130 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 16 May 2001, Vance Dereksen wrote: > > Urinal cakes are made of paradichlorobenzene (at least most of them > are) which is the same material from which mothballs are made. It soaks > up odor, but it doesn't "freshen" or scent the air, usually. Perhaps not 'freshen' per se, but you sure as hell can smell mothballs and, to a lesser extent because they are wet I suppose, urinal cakes. - don > Peace... Sridhar > > On Wed, 16 May 2001, Will Jennings wrote: > > > The correct term is "urinal CAKE" not cookie... it's that round thing in > > urinals that is an air-freshener, etc. At least I believe thats what it > > does... I sure as hell have no intention to sniff it to determine the > > accuracy of this.. > > > > Will J > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > From bakcc at bigoakhill.com Wed May 16 13:40:54 2001 From: bakcc at bigoakhill.com (bakcc@bigoakhill.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: My IBM 1130 In-Reply-To: <3B02B9D6.6709126B@internet1.net> Message-ID: <200105161842.f4GIgh123182@mnmai05.mn.mediaone.net> On 05/16/2001 at 01:33 PM, Chad Fernandez said: >I haven't been following this thread, but WOW.... I don't even want to >know how an IBM 1130 got here to urinals!! In fact, I wouldn't mind seeing this part of the thread DIE... it seems to be a bit off topic. ;-) -Bruce From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Wed May 16 14:00:11 2001 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: My IBM 1130 Message-ID: Good God, some of us read e-mail while we are *eating*... ugh! _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed May 16 14:15:57 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: Using audio cassette In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3B02EE0D.16349.16C0D63@localhost> > > Haave you considered using magnetic tape to build your own drum memory? > > Would this even work? I don't know, I've only considered it. > kinda doubtful Well, as long as you think along a 'real' drum with flying heads etc. you're right, but there is a simple solution - take a card board tube and warp regular cassete tape around, and let a head read/write this tape ... if you take an old style washing powder drum (ca. 30 cm diameter / 1 ft) you get a lenght of about 1m (3 ft 4") - what was the usual speed of cassetes ? 4 cm/s ? I'm not shure (Tony ?), as a rough estimation you get a track size of some 3 kByte and an average access time of 12s not to bad ... almost like a floppy (well, except the access time) and of course we can add more tracks ... and with seperate heads for each track the over all performance would be comperable to early floppy drives. The only real problem might be the head(s) - or better the acuracy of the tape, since the head is fixed. You may need a real good way to adjust the tape. Otherwise you need some head mechanics so the head may follow your tape ... Now if you invest this much effort, you may also glue the tape in a spiral along the drum - like a good old vinyl disk (you know, the courious black stuff they had before CDs) or well, on a CD. All you need is to add a mechanic to lift the head, and you get one big tape with direct access and fast loading, since you don't need to switch tracks within a read operation. For the head movement a simple thread rod and a stepping motor could work fine. With our washing powder drum we could get around the same storage than on a 8" disk (~500K) with still acceptable access time (no idea hof fast the head positioning will be, but at least it must be able to move the head within one rotation as fas as the tape is wide (plus a bit for the 'track gap') - I just assume it would be possible to move the head 10 times faster when lifted. putting this together (140 Rounds, 25s per round, 2,5s per track lifted movement) we get a maximum, seek time of <400s, and an average seek of <200s or 3 minutes ... not so bad for a old card board drum :)) A real killer would be a TOC at the start of your drum. But with a little inteligent programming the average timing may be quite good (for example do seek operations already when you are still computing the last data chunk, etc.) Also you may turn the head at the end ... like car cassete systems, and have a second 'side' backwards - now we have a whooping Megabyte. And we need a programm controled direction change for the drum (plus brake and spin up wait). Maybe place it in the middle - or just forget about it at all. Oh ja, for your tape thing - putting a directory at the begining of the tape is quite a pain - maybe you should take a look at old IBM manuals for tapes. They had fast tapes, with automatic loading, and _realy_ fast for/backwinding, Reading in both directions, etc. pp. but still their tape data structure (VOL1/2/3, HDR1/2/3, etc.) didn't include any central directory structures. Last but not least, there is still the endless tape! This device is way more like what you think about ... 5 min endless cassettes should be still available for some answering machines - you get a storage of some 35 kByte which should be fair enough. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 16 12:52:36 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: Off Topic, free load of pentiums in VA. In-Reply-To: References: <3B019BF2.7B119449@home.com> Message-ID: Sorry to make an off topic post, but these still need a person to get them I think. Contact the person directly please, PICK UP ONLY. I am passing this one on to somebody local, anybody out there still? (please let me know if you are following up). Reply-To: From: "Kim Gibbons" To: Subject: Scrapping PC's Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 14:50:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Dear Mr. Ford, Good afternoon to you. I obtained your name from a May 2000 article in Computerworld. Our company, MPR Associates, through upgrade attrition has acquired a collection of used computers, printers, and monitors. We would like to avoid wasting this equipment, so we are looking to donate it to anyone that will take it. The list includes 7 computers - Pentium (PI or PII), 3 laptops - 486 (or better), 11 monitors, and some misc. printer parts and monitor stands, however, we DO NOT guarantee either the condition or completeness of any of the equipment. There is, of course, a condition: Take one, take all. Please give me a call, or reply to this Email, if you would be interested in taking all of this equipment. Additionally, I'm happy to follow any referral leads you have to offer in lieu of accepting this donation. Thank you and best regards, Kim Gibbons MPR Associates 703-519-0544 From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed May 16 14:15:59 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: Apple lisa for sale pretty cheap.... In-Reply-To: <00f501c0de25$1be5b8d0$6762d6d1@DOMAIN> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010516151510.00a24bc0@mailhost.intellistar.net> And you didn't tell me ahead of time? I'll remember that! joe At 12:27 PM 5/16/01 -0400, you wrote: >Ran accross this page yesterday: > > http://www.alphacomputers.com/store/page32.html > >looks like one parts-grade Lisa computer available delivered for $58... > >runners... on your mark, get set, go! > >;) >- Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed May 16 14:27:43 2001 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: Old chips for new project. In-Reply-To: <3B019757.18E31ED3@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <20010516192743.83276.qmail@web9504.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck McManis wrote: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > Look at the 'Student Manual' for 'The Art of Electronics'. This is > > essentially an electronics lab course, and it goes from resistors to > > making a small microprocessor system. > > This is a really great book (get the text book too!) and you can usually get > it used at significant savings at any college bookstore that teaches EE (its > used at lot... I checked at the used book exchange for OSU (Ohio State, for those in Oregon or Oklahoma ;-) They do _not_ carry it. If anyone learns of a school where this is available, I'd like to know about it. Thanks, -ethan ===== Visit "The Seventh Continent" http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Wed May 16 14:50:00 2001 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: My IBM 1130 Message-ID: Hey, I'm personally totally perplexed as to where it came from in the first place... I just wish I could afford the 1130 but I know someone will come out with some large amount of money and as always I'll miss out on another opportunity... I guess I could sell my PDP-8/i and some other stuff or something, except then I'd never have another PDP-8/i.. ugh.. I tried to look up weights, but IBM actually doesn't have info on the 1130 in the sales manual anymore, unfortunately. Will J _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From truthanl at oclc.org Wed May 16 15:05:52 2001 From: truthanl at oclc.org (Truthan,Larry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: Destinking Computers Message-ID: <5D2A5FE013C66B44901B5A45A5304DDA0172D344@oa2-server.oa.oclc.org> Date: 16 May 2001 0:50:25 +0100 From: "Iggy Drougge" Subject: Re: destinking the computers. jpero skrev: ....If it stinks after this treatment, I'd have no idea what to do next. My Sugesstion: Pack it with a dryer sheet. Dryer sheets also repell mice. I have a friend who does this to the interior of his 69 SS Chevelle. He covers the car on a cement floor in his pole barn. Dryer sheets under the seats got rid musty smell, and he also realized lack of mouse dropings. Prior years he'd find seat stuffing packed in a nest on the intake manifold, or some other unlikely place. Larry Truthan Digest subscriber truthanl@oclc.org From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed May 16 15:06:21 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: Old chips for new project. In-Reply-To: <20010516192743.83276.qmail@web9504.mail.yahoo.com> References: <3B019757.18E31ED3@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010516160414.00a3cc60@mailhost.intellistar.net> Ethan, If you are near any good size college or university, there are usually stores around that buy and sell used text books.You might check with them. Also check with abebooks.com and bookfinders.com. joe At 12:27 PM 5/16/01 -0700, you wrote: >--- Chuck McManis wrote: > > > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > Look at the 'Student Manual' for 'The Art of Electronics'. This is > > > essentially an electronics lab course, and it goes from resistors to > > > making a small microprocessor system. > > > > This is a really great book (get the text book too!) and you can > usually get > > it used at significant savings at any college bookstore that teaches EE > (its > > used at lot... > >I checked at the used book exchange for OSU (Ohio State, for those in Oregon >or Oklahoma ;-) They do _not_ carry it. If anyone learns of a school where >this is available, I'd like to know about it. > >Thanks, > >-ethan > > >===== >Visit "The Seventh Continent" >http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices >http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed May 16 16:26:40 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: Apple lisa for sale pretty cheap.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Wed, 16 May 2001, John Cook wrote: > >> Well, I (like others on this list I suppose) ordered the thing. I went >> back to the computer list and noticed it's still there... I wonder >> what will happen when it turns out that I was the 15th person to order >> this machine? > >A sudden drastic increase in the sale price quite possibly :( Or perhaps a >sudden appearance of a certain keyboard-less, mouse-less Lisa on eBay. If anyone on the list gets it and bought it for parts, I'd be interested in purchasing the rear case panel off of you! That, or does anyone know of anything else that uses that exact screw latch? The main problem with my back panel is that the latch closest to the PSU (and nearest the dead-man switch) is missing, with part of it's mounting area borke as well. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed May 16 16:34:28 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: My IBM 1130 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Urinal cakes are made of paradichlorobenzene (at least most of them >are) which is the same material from which mothballs are made. It soaks >up odor, but it doesn't "freshen" or scent the air, usually. My experience with mothballs, and this could be rather dated, is that they leave their own unpleasant odor. I've had the displeasure of unpacking stuff that had been packed with mothballs for long periods of time, as in quite a number of years. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed May 16 16:36:18 2001 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: Old chips for new project. In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010516160414.00a3cc60@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <20010516213618.34853.qmail@web9501.mail.yahoo.com> --- joe wrote: > Ethan, > > If you are near any good size college or university, there are usually > stores around that buy and sell used text books.You might check with them. Please read below... I did. I think OSU counts as "good size" (50K+ students) > Also check with abebooks.com and bookfinders.com. I will try that. -ethan > At 12:27 PM 5/16/01 -0700, you wrote: > > >I checked at the used book exchange for OSU (Ohio State, for those in Oregon > >or Oklahoma ;-) They do _not_ carry it. If anyone learns of a school where > >this is available, I'd like to know about it. ===== Visit "The Seventh Continent" http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed May 16 16:53:20 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: The NeXT's have been saved!!! References: <3ACF595E.51298D52@atari-history.com> <00ef01c0bf92$77866240$7a711fd1@default> <002901c0bf9e$886c97d0$c2609040@atarihistory.com> Message-ID: <00d501c0de52$a08aa820$b5721fd1@default> What's the current status ? Thanks John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Curt Vendel" To: Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 3:08 PM Subject: Re: The NeXT's have been saved!!! > John, > > You got it, will set one aside for you, just give me a fews days to get > back to you. > > Curt > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John R. Keys Jr." > To: > Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 2:42 PM > Subject: Re: The NeXT's have been saved!!! > > > > Put me down for 1 and zip is 55110. Thanks John > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Curt Vendel" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 1:15 PM > > Subject: The NeXT's have been saved!!! > > > > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > > > Just got back from Philly about 10 mins ago, the SUV is loaded to > > the > > > gills with Next Turbo slabs, some laser printers, monitors, keyboard, > > > mice, etc.... I have to sort through everything, and get everything > > > matched up and organized. > > > > > > I'll post a full inventory sometime later tonight. I've noticed > > some > > > slabs don't have internal HD's, others do. The OS CD's are NeXT Step > > > 3.2, there are loads of other disks, CD's, developers CD's and so > > forth, I > > > will try to make sure every system comes with all the necessary CD's, > > > disks and so forth. > > > > > > There are 3 laserprinters, one looks a little dinged up and I would > > say > > > it is more for parts then anything else, so whomever is intereste, > > speak > > > now for them. > > > > > > I've bought the whole lot for $1,000 so each slab is $35 each plus > > > shipping, looks like there are a ton of extra keyboards, but the mice > > look > > > like there is enough for each slab. The systems/monitors are all > > mono > > > turbo stations. > > > > > > Those who wanted them and those who are interested, speak now, lets > > get > > > owners for all of these units, sorry the Cube and whats left of the > > other > > > cube are mine, kinda fair since I just drove 1 1/2 hours each way to > > go > > > lug all this stuff back for everyone :-) > > > > > > > > > Curt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 16 16:51:09 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: Console bulkhead battery source In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Try the Nicad Lady http://www.nicdlady.com/index.htm She uses very fresh batteries and has an ultrasonic welder to make the packs. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 16 16:56:10 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: Rebuilding Mac Portable batteries with caps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've been thinking about rebuilding some Mac Portable batteries, and instead of putting in the Cyclon or whatever leadacid cells I am planning on just using a good sized capacitor with maybe some kind of current limiting resistor. The goal isn't for portable use, but just to keep the DC smooth and provide the "kick" to get the hard drive spun up. Opinions? Marvin you still have those caps? From david_j_findlay at yahoo.com.au Wed May 16 17:09:10 2001 From: david_j_findlay at yahoo.com.au (David Findlay) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: Using audio cassette In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01051612433100.12418@workshop> On Wednesday 16 May 2001 11:10, Tony Duell hit his keyboard with a hammer and this was the result: > Is there a good reason not to use a floppy drive? You can either design > your own controller from scratch (not that hard), or use one of the > single-chip FDCs used in PCs. Well, the reason I wasn't going to use a floppy drive was the fact that I would have to build an IDE controller. How hard are they to build? David -- David Findlay ---------- Email: david_j_findlay@yahoo.com.au Homepage: http://users.bigpond.com/nedz/ Segmentation Fault. (Core dumped) From david_j_findlay at yahoo.com.au Wed May 16 17:09:17 2001 From: david_j_findlay at yahoo.com.au (David Findlay) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: Using audio cassette In-Reply-To: <989979298.3b01e2a2067b5@email.ou.edu> References: <01051610111700.02061@workshop> <989979298.3b01e2a2067b5@email.ou.edu> Message-ID: <01051612493501.12418@workshop> On Wednesday 16 May 2001 12:14, Jeffrey S. Sharp hit his keyboard with a hammer and this was the result: > Quoting David Findlay : > > I am a new member of the list in digest mode. I have read quite a > > bit about the early homebrew computer club days and processor > > techniques. I am currently designing my own computer > > Cool. I want to do that someday. A friend and I have been toying > with the idea of building a computer out of relays. Well I am not going so far as to build mine with relays, but I am planning on using only discreet components whereever possible. You won't find a microprocessor in my machine. > Sounds good to me; lots of micros used cassette tapes for storage. > I've never done it myself, so I'm not of much help I guess :-). > But it *has* been done, so you should be able to do it. As some people have mentioned it is going to be damn slow and not much storage. I think I will have to think about how to hook a floppy drive in some how. David -- David Findlay ---------- Email: david_j_findlay@yahoo.com.au Homepage: http://users.bigpond.com/nedz/ Segmentation Fault. (Core dumped) From david_j_findlay at yahoo.com.au Wed May 16 17:09:30 2001 From: david_j_findlay at yahoo.com.au (David Findlay) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: Using audio cassette In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01051616442100.00433@workshop> On Wednesday 16 May 2001 14:05, Sellam Ismail hit his keyboard with a hammer and this was the result: > You're assuming he won't do something clever such as add an electronic > counter so he can fast forward to just before the desired block? I was planing on this. I will have a block of sound at the start of the tape, that will indicate what is 1 second for this recorder. This will calibrate it to be able to seek the second of the tape it wants. It will then read in the FAT and seek the file directly. > As I suggested, he can use the magnetic tape to wrap around some drum to > create a cool drum memory device :) There can even be multiple tracks, > with either one moveable head or multiple heads for faster access. I was thinking of reading/writing the tape's both tracks at once. > I think the intent here is to create a more classic-type design rather > than a modernish design. I think I would probably run it more as a showpiece than a functional device and still have a floppy drive for other stuff. David -- David Findlay ---------- Email: david_j_findlay@yahoo.com.au Homepage: http://users.bigpond.com/nedz/ Segmentation Fault. (Core dumped) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 16 13:20:15 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: Console bulkhead battery source In-Reply-To: from "Paul Thompson" at May 15, 1 08:36:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2606 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010516/a6b0d03f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 16 13:40:29 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: Storage medium for longevity of data? In-Reply-To: <989981272.3b01ea581d445@email.ou.edu> from "Jeffrey S. Sharp" at May 15, 1 09:47:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1957 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010516/746fd905/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 16 13:51:47 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:33 2005 Subject: Using audio cassette In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at May 15, 1 09:05:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3418 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010516/626257e3/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 16 16:47:48 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Using audio cassette In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010516113338.00b50aa0@pc> from "John Foust" at May 16, 1 11:34:50 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 467 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010516/72e36dd4/attachment.ksh From jpero at sympatico.ca Wed May 16 13:15:20 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Console bulkhead battery source In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20010516221243.VEPU15234.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 14:51:09 -0700 > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > From: Mike Ford > Subject: Re: Console bulkhead battery source > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Try the Nicad Lady http://www.nicdlady.com/index.htm > > She uses very fresh batteries and has an ultrasonic welder to make the packs. Excellent but a comment: Many battery rebuilders recycles the old straps besides special items. no no! Cheers, Wizard From sialenec at yahoo.com Wed May 16 17:45:34 2001 From: sialenec at yahoo.com (M) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Toshiba T3100/20 Message-ID: <000201c0de5b$0cfd7020$40df05d4@win98> Hi there, I am having trouble getting my old Toshiba T3100 up and running. THe problem is that once it boots up it says "Incorrect Dos Version" and then "Bad or missing Command Interpreter" How can I get this thing running again? Mitch. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010517/264ffd33/attachment.html From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 16 18:10:45 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Console bulkhead battery source In-Reply-To: <20010516221243.VEPU15234.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> References: Message-ID: >> Try the Nicad Lady http://www.nicdlady.com/index.htm >> >> She uses very fresh batteries and has an ultrasonic welder to make the >>packs. > >Excellent but a comment: > >Many battery rebuilders recycles the old straps besides special >items. no no! In many cases the weird little hardware bits are simply unavailable, so what do you do, recycle metal parts or buy new battery packs? From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed May 16 18:04:37 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Rebuilding Mac Portable batteries with caps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010516184232.00a36210@mailhost.intellistar.net> Whether or not you need the caps depends on what kind of power supply you plan on running the Mac from. Generally, the lower the frequency of the power supply, the more capacitance you'll need. In other words, a linear supply that operates at 60 Hz will need a lot more capacitance than a switcher suppy that operates at 24kHz. I realize that you'll use a "DC" power supply but very few power supplies put out a pure DC and you need a pretty pure source of DC to prevent glitches in the logic of the Mac. That's one of the biggest reasons that switching power supplies were developed originally. The high frequencies that they run at means that you can filter out the hum and still have a power supply that's not the size of a refrigerator! This is assuming that the load is steady. However a computer isn't steady due to drives starting and stopping and the like. Because of that, you'll need even MORE capitance! In any event, you certainly won't be able to cram enough caps inside the Mac to adaquetely filter it. If I were you and I wasn't concerned with portability, I would run the Mac off of some kind of large battery, perhaps even a car battery or a battery out of an old UPS. Of course, you'll have to find something that is the right voltage. However most most computers that use lead acid batteries run off of either 6 or 12 VDC so that makes it easy. FWIW I have a couple of old Mac portables and they seem to be real power hogs. (That's probably why they use lead acid batteries instead of NiCads.) My small HP power supply won't run them. Even with the drives off, it will only run them with a partially charged battery to take up some of the peak load. It won't run at all when the batteries are dead. And forget it when the drive kicks in! My 2 cents worth, Joe At 02:56 PM 5/16/01 -0700, you wrote: >I've been thinking about rebuilding some Mac Portable batteries, and >instead of putting in the Cyclon or whatever leadacid cells I am planning >on just using a good sized capacitor with maybe some kind of current >limiting resistor. The goal isn't for portable use, but just to keep the DC >smooth and provide the "kick" to get the hard drive spun up. Opinions? > >Marvin you still have those caps? From thompson at mail.athenet.net Wed May 16 18:16:02 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Console bulkhead battery source In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 16 May 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > Perhaps this is not the place to mention that I was connecting cells in > series before I ever went to school.... As good a place as any. I have hooked batteries in series on the fly before, but usually on circuits not sensitive to gross mistakes or ones where I was not concerned if my meddling hosed things up. I wanted to take a little more care in this case and go by the book. > You want to keep the capacity (180mAh in this case) similar as well. The > charging current for the cells is normally around one tenth of the > capacity, so you'd expect a 18mA charging current in this case. You'd not > want to use cells of a very different capacity unless you also want to > modify the charging circuit (this might be trivial given the schematic, > it might not, but in any case it's easier to get the right cells). I did some searching and could not find any 180mAh batteries, even among vendors carrying panasonic batteries (which these were incidentally). It seems the line has been discontinued since 1990. The available cells were all in the 220-250mAh range. I hope this is not a wide enough variation to make a difference, or would I just need to leave the machine on longer to charge the cells? Thanks everyone for all the helpful responses...Paul From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed May 16 18:09:46 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Old chips for new project. In-Reply-To: <20010516213618.34853.qmail@web9501.mail.yahoo.com> References: <5.1.0.14.1.20010516160414.00a3cc60@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010516190523.00a27a80@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 02:36 PM 5/16/01 -0700, you wrote: >--- joe wrote: > > Ethan, > > > > If you are near any good size college or university, there are usually > > stores around that buy and sell used text books.You might check with them. > >Please read below... I did. I think OSU counts as "good size" (50K+ students) OK, but did you check with any outside book stores? A lot of them carry books that aren't necessarily used at that school. CRIPES! If you're near OSU, then you can go to Powell's book store in Portland. They're THE best technical book store that I've ever seen. They should have it. > > Also check with abebooks.com and bookfinders.com. > >I will try that. I haven't tried book finders but I've used abebooks and I've had great luck finding stuff there. Joe >-ethan > > > At 12:27 PM 5/16/01 -0700, you wrote: > > > > >I checked at the used book exchange for OSU (Ohio State, for those in > Oregon > > >or Oklahoma ;-) They do _not_ carry it. If anyone learns of a school > where > > >this is available, I'd like to know about it. > > > > >===== >Visit "The Seventh Continent" >http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices >http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed May 16 18:12:34 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Apple lisa for sale pretty cheap.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010516191029.00a33270@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 05:26 PM 5/16/01 -0400, you wrote: >>On Wed, 16 May 2001, John Cook wrote: >> >>> Well, I (like others on this list I suppose) ordered the thing. I went >>> back to the computer list and noticed it's still there... I wonder >>> what will happen when it turns out that I was the 15th person to order >>> this machine? >> >>A sudden drastic increase in the sale price quite possibly :( Or perhaps a >>sudden appearance of a certain keyboard-less, mouse-less Lisa on eBay. > > If anyone on the list gets it and bought it for parts, I'd be > interested in purchasing the rear case panel off of you! That, or does > anyone know of anything else that uses that exact screw latch? The main > problem with my back panel is that the latch closest to the PSU (and > nearest the dead-man switch) is missing, with part of it's mounting area > borke as well. Just curious but have you checked to see if the latch is a standard industrial part? I wonder if Small Parts or someone like that might have it. I'd be willing to bet that Apple bought it from someone that specializes in that kind of part. Joe > Jeff >-- > Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 16 18:14:38 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Using audio cassette In-Reply-To: <01051616442100.00433@workshop> from "David Findlay" at May 17, 1 08:09:30 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2523 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010517/593adaf2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 16 18:03:40 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Using audio cassette In-Reply-To: <01051612433100.12418@workshop> from "David Findlay" at May 17, 1 08:09:10 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1034 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010517/56d5b78d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 16 18:16:52 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Rebuilding Mac Portable batteries with caps In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at May 16, 1 02:56:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 747 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010517/53184bf1/attachment.ksh From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 16 18:44:02 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Old chips for new project. In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010516190523.00a27a80@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: > >Please read below... I did. I think OSU counts as "good size" (50K+ students) I think that 50K+ students is a "bad size". > CRIPES! If you're near OSU, then you can go to Powell's book store in > Portland. They're THE best technical book store that I've ever seen. They > should have it. Where is Portland Ohio? From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 16 18:57:38 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Toshiba T3100/20 In-Reply-To: <000201c0de5b$0cfd7020$40df05d4@win98> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 May 2001, M wrote: > Hi there, I am having trouble getting my old Toshiba T3100 up and > running. THe problem is that once it boots up it says "Incorrect Dos > Version" and then "Bad or missing Command Interpreter" How can I get > this thing running again? The first message is VERY specific. It means that COMMAND.COM is from a different version of DOS than IO.SYS and MSDOS.SYS (somehow, COMMAND.COM from a different version has gotten copied to the drive.) The second message is a vague general message that merely means that COMMAND.COM is not present, or not running properly. What you will need to do is to boot from a floppy. If it persists in trying to boot from the hard drive instead of from the floppy, then you will need to go into the CMOS setup and adjust that. Once it has booted, check the date and time of the two invisible files, IO.SYS and MSDOS.SYS. Then find a copy of the correct version of COMMAND.COM and copy it to the root directory of the hard drive. Also, check CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT for any references to COMSPEC or to COMMAND.COM, as those could reference copies that are in locations other than the root. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 16 19:12:59 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Console bulkhead battery source In-Reply-To: from "Paul Thompson" at May 16, 1 06:16:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1332 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010517/847d76a1/attachment.ksh From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 16 19:22:59 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Rebuilding Mac Portable batteries with caps In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010516184232.00a36210@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: Message-ID: >have a couple of old Mac portables and they seem to be real power hogs. >(That's probably why they use lead acid batteries instead of NiCads.) My >small HP power supply won't run them. Even with the drives off, it will >only run them with a partially charged battery to take up some of the peak >load. It won't run at all when the batteries are dead. And forget it when >the drive kicks in! I have a bunch of Apple powerbook adapters, and generally if you use the larger of the 1xx series adapters that will run the portable including spinning up the HD, but just barely. Any battery "problems" and it won't spin up without resetting the computer. I have 3 batteries to play with, and at least one will hold a partial charge, but I really don't want to fiddle with the battery every couple years. Something to play with anyway. From edick at idcomm.com Wed May 16 19:32:51 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Old chips for new project. References: Message-ID: <001101c0de68$e86b8720$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Ohio??? I thought he meant Oklahoma ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 5:44 PM Subject: Re: Old chips for new project. > > >Please read below... I did. I think OSU counts as "good size" (50K+ students) > > I think that 50K+ students is a "bad size". > > > CRIPES! If you're near OSU, then you can go to Powell's book store in > > Portland. They're THE best technical book store that I've ever seen. They > > should have it. > > Where is Portland Ohio? > > > From heatond30 at hotmail.com Wed May 16 18:43:58 2001 From: heatond30 at hotmail.com (Dorothy Heaton) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Where to buy Gorilla Banana printers? Message-ID: Hi Doug, We have a Gorilla Banana Printer! It seems to be in good shape with the dust cover, manual, and old ribbon. We also have a ton of systems and componets ,and software (the good stuff)from that era, Commador 64, 128, 5.25 drives, Atari systems, and lots of other equipment. Printers like the big blue, Commador vic and others. We have the IBM PC jr system complete with monitor, printer, side parallel car, and extensive manuals. We have a lot of stuff from the 70's and 80's MAC performa 450 complete with software manuals modem, monitor, printer-Image Writer II, also a Apple IIgs with lots of attachments 5.25 & 3.5 drives, printer all complete! Windows 3.1 tower system complete has CD-rom, 5.25 1.2 mg, 3.5 1.44mg drives 2 hard drives 2.19.mg and 83.mg. Has Sound blaster card, modem, serial and parallel cards installed. Has the Calmira Final addition GUI (windows 95 desktop) installed. Mouse, Keyboard, Monitor, lots of software installed like Word, Powerpoint, Excel, and more! We have 5 - HP smartdesk Writers Color and black inkjet printers TOO! 386 boards, ISA cards lots more. We would like to sell it all if possible! Contact us at samcgee65@hotmail.com Thank you, Mark McGee From heatond30 at hotmail.com Wed May 16 18:46:29 2001 From: heatond30 at hotmail.com (Dorothy Heaton) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Where to buy Gorilla Banana printers? Message-ID: Hi Doug, We have a Gorilla Banana Printer! It seems to be in good shape with the dust cover, manual, and old ribbon. We also have a ton of systems and componets ,and software (the good stuff)from that era, Commador 64, 128, 5.25 drives, Atari systems, and lots of other equipment. Printers like the big blue, Commador vic and others. We have the IBM PC jr system complete with monitor, printer, side parallel car, and extensive manuals. We have a lot of stuff from the 70's and 80's MAC performa 450 complete with software manuals modem, monitor, printer-Image Writer II, also a Apple IIgs with lots of attachments 5.25 & 3.5 drives, printer all complete! Windows 3.1 tower system complete has CD-rom, 5.25 1.2 mg, 3.5 1.44mg drives 2 hard drives 2.19.mg and 83.mg. Has Sound blaster card, modem, serial and parallel cards installed. Has the Calmira Final addition GUI (windows 95 desktop) installed. Mouse, Keyboard, Monitor, lots of software installed like Word, Powerpoint, Excel, and more! We have 5 - HP smartdesk Writers Color and black inkjet printers TOO! 386 boards, ISA cards lots more. We would like to sell it all if possible! Contact us at samcgee65@hotmail.com Thank you, Mark McGee From heatond30 at hotmail.com Wed May 16 18:47:41 2001 From: heatond30 at hotmail.com (Dorothy Heaton) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Where to buy Gorilla Banana printers? Message-ID: Hi Doug, We have a Gorilla Banana Printer! It seems to be in good shape with the dust cover, manual, and old ribbon. We also have a ton of systems and componets ,and software (the good stuff)from that era, Commador 64, 128, 5.25 drives, Atari systems, and lots of other equipment. Printers like the big blue, Commador vic and others. We have the IBM PC jr system complete with monitor, printer, side parallel car, and extensive manuals. We have a lot of stuff from the 70's and 80's MAC performa 450 complete with software manuals modem, monitor, printer-Image Writer II, also a Apple IIgs with lots of attachments 5.25 & 3.5 drives, printer all complete! Windows 3.1 tower system complete has CD-rom, 5.25 1.2 mg, 3.5 1.44mg drives 2 hard drives 2.19.mg and 83.mg. Has Sound blaster card, modem, serial and parallel cards installed. Has the Calmira Final addition GUI (windows 95 desktop) installed. Mouse, Keyboard, Monitor, lots of software installed like Word, Powerpoint, Excel, and more! We have 5 - HP smartdesk Writers Color and black inkjet printers TOO! 386 boards, ISA cards lots more. We would like to sell it all if possible! Contact us at samcgee65@hotmail.com Thank you, Mark McGee From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 16 19:59:31 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Old chips for new project. In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010516190523.00a27a80@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "joe" at May 16, 2001 07:09:46 PM Message-ID: <200105170059.RAA16574@shell1.aracnet.com> > CRIPES! If you're near OSU, then you can go to Powell's book store in > Portland. They're THE best technical book store that I've ever seen. They > should have it. Wrong OSU Joe :^) You're right though Powells does have it, however they don't have the student book (at least not right now, they have in the past). They're who I bought my copy from (still need the student book). One of these years I really need to find the time to absorb the material in there. Zane From louiss at gate.net Wed May 16 20:59:19 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: <200105170059.RAA16574@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <200105170200.WAA27741@barry.mail.mindspring.net> Hi all, Well, I just got a fabled but seldom seen Exidy Sorcerer. It has a power supply problem (including the need to be converted back from 220 to 110V) but I am working on that. The Sorcerer was a contemporary of the Apple II, Commodore Pet and TRS-80 Model 1. It was unique in a number of features, including its use of an S-100 expansion box. In many respects, it appears to have been inspired by the SOL 20. Info on the web in very sparse. I have nothing but the bare CPU, and photocopies of some manuals. I would like any info anyone has available, software, manuals, hardware, etc. Will pay good bucks, or trade from my vast collection of interesting stuff. So, what do you all know? Louis From vaxman at qwest.net Wed May 16 22:18:00 2001 From: vaxman at qwest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: PDP 11/34 on EBay.... NOT!!!! Message-ID: Fair warning... The 11/34 that just showed up on EBay with a buy it now price of $899 and a reserve > 12.50 isn't an 11/34... I doesn't have a CPU... I does however have a paper tape control board, an operator panel, and a bunch of bus grant cards :) clint From s.lowenstein at patriot.net Wed May 16 19:29:52 2001 From: s.lowenstein at patriot.net (Sam Lowenstein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Heathkit Fall 1978 catalog now on-line; H-8, H-11, H-9 and ET-3400. Message-ID: <4.2.2.20010516232716.00a3d340@mail.patriot.net> I have been looking all over for the model number of a fancy digital fm tuner that heathkit made about 1978. It was unusual because it had a keypad on it to punch in the station you wanted. Is it possible for you to look in your 1978 heathkit catalog and see if such a thing is in there. If you could put it on your site it would be great! Thanks, Sam Lowenstein From jss at ou.edu Wed May 16 22:44:38 2001 From: jss at ou.edu (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Storage medium for longevity of data? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <990071078.3b034926129aa@email.ou.edu> Quoting Tony Duell : > In general, the higher the data density, the more likely it is to > get damaged (it takes less wear/damage of the medium to erase a > bit). So you'd not want to have too high a data density if you want > the result to be 'archival'. And the problems/solutions for > preserving paper (be it documents, or presumably punched tape) are > reasonably well-known, I think. The *other* thought that came to my mind was that they could find something to work in place of paper -- some plastic, metal, or other material that would better handle more densely packed data. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@ou.edu From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 16 23:27:39 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Storage medium for longevity of data? In-Reply-To: <990071078.3b034926129aa@email.ou.edu> from "Jeffrey S. Sharp" at May 16, 2001 10:44:38 PM Message-ID: <200105170427.VAA24322@shell1.aracnet.com> > The *other* thought that came to my mind was that they could find > something to work in place of paper -- some plastic, metal, or other > material that would better handle more densely packed data. > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@ou.edu When this topic came up on the list several years ago ISTR that the general consensus was that Mylar "papertape" would be the best format. Zane From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu May 17 00:23:51 2001 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Books (was Re: Old chips for new project.) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010516190523.00a27a80@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <20010517052351.37568.qmail@web9504.mail.yahoo.com> --- joe wrote: > At 02:36 PM 5/16/01 -0700, you wrote: > >--- joe wrote: > > > Ethan, > > > > > > If you are near any good size college or university, there are > usually stores around that buy and sell used text books. > > > >Please read below... I did. I think OSU counts as "good size" (50K+ > students) > > OK, but did you check with any outside book stores? A lot of them > carry books that aren't necessarily used at that school. Perhaps this is cultural, but Ohio State doesn't handle used books itself - that is a function of the external sellers. I specifically called up The Student Book eXchange (SBX) at 14th and High St., Columbus, OH, across the street from The Ohio State University, and asked them if they carried it. The answer was negative. > CRIPES! If you're near OSU, then you can go to Powell's book store in > Portland. Again, please read below... when I said "OSU" I specifically mentioned Ohio State *not* Oregon State. Now... there is a Powell, OH, near Columbus... perhaps they have a "Portland Book Store"? :-) > > > >I checked at the used book exchange for OSU (Ohio State, for those in > > Oregon or Oklahoma ;-) They do _not_ carry it. -ethan ===== Visit "The Seventh Continent" http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu May 17 00:26:24 2001 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Old chips for new project. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010517052624.98810.qmail@web9501.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > >Please read below... I did. I think OSU counts as "good size" (50K+ > students) > > I think that 50K+ students is a "bad size". It is if you are in Physics 131 with 900+ other students! > > CRIPES! If you're near OSU, then you can go to Powell's book store in > > Portland... > > Where is Portland Ohio? I have absolutely no idea. -ethan ===== Visit "The Seventh Continent" http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From frustum at pacbell.net Thu May 17 00:31:02 2001 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: <200105170200.WAA27741@barry.mail.mindspring.net> References: <200105170059.RAA16574@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010516222833.00bbb4d0@postoffice.pacbell.net> At 09:59 PM 5/16/01 -0400, Louis Schulman wrote: >Hi all, > >Well, I just got a fabled but seldom seen Exidy Sorcerer. ... >Info on the web in very sparse. > >So, what do you all know? Here are a few links: http://www.trailingedge.com/exidy/ http://www.lisp.com.au/~michael/exidy/ http://www.liaquay.demon.co.uk/Sorcerer/ ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed May 16 12:53:41 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Need help identifying a MOSTEK chip In-Reply-To: Norm Anheier "Need help identifying a MOSTEK chip" (May 16, 8:50) References: <3B02A1D7.C8A57A40@pnl.gov> Message-ID: <10105161853.ZM16461@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 16, 8:50, Norm Anheier wrote: > I need help identifying the function (ie what is it!) of a MOSTEK chip, > part number MK2488P with date code (?) 7429. If it's 1974, its a little > early for my data books. I can't find MK2488P. Nearest I can see is MK2400P (a 256-word x 10-bit mask ROM) or MK2408P (2400 programmed as a character generator ROM). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From GOOI at oce.nl Thu May 17 02:18:09 2001 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: LA210 problem with the control lines Message-ID: Hi all. Yesterday I connected my LA210 Letterprinter to the printerport of a VT102. Both are set at 9600 Bd, 8 databits, no parity and 1 stopbit. However when I send some 5 characters from the VT102 to the printer, it prints many mirrored question marks and other 'strange' characters. Okay, I thought, the baudrate setting, etc. is not correct. But it is. These are the checks I have done so far. 1) The used cable is an original DEC BC22D-25. This cable is mentioned in the LA210 Letterprinter User Guide. 2) From the VT102 User Guide, I build the EIA loopback connector. It is a 25 pin D connector and has pin #2 wired to #3 and #15, pin #4 wired to #5 and #8, pin #20 wired to #6 and #22, and pin #19 is wired to #12 and #17. The VT102 passes the Printer Loopback Self-Test, ESC [ 2 ; 16 y 3) The LA210 passes the Internal Self-Test. Among others, it prints that the speed is 9600 Bd, so I know those DIP switches are set ok. It also print lines with all characters in it. 4) The LA210 I/O Loopback Tests only mentions to plug in a loopback connector. I assume I can use the same one as the one used on the VT102. The Loopback Test gives an error. The output text is: Control lines failed. (20 mA ?, jumpers ?) Data path OK Printing loopback I do not understand the message "Control lines failed". I am using EIA, so it can not be a current loop problem. When I connect the BC22D to the VT102 and the LA210, the "Data Set Ready" LED on the LA210 goes on. Am I using the correct loopback connector on the LA210? Has anybody seen this problem before? I have no field maintenance print set of the LA210 .... kind regards, Henk Gooijen, PDP-11 collector http://home.12move.nl/~sh416008 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu May 17 02:25:03 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Heathkit Fall 1978 catalog now on-line; H-8, H-11, H-9 and ET-3400. In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20010516232716.00a3d340@mail.patriot.net> Message-ID: >I have been looking all over for the model number of a fancy digital fm >tuner that heathkit made about 1978. It was unusual because it had a keypad It was 1610 or something like that, maybe 3 or 4 years earlier, and it wasn't very good. What I wanted was the Mckay Dymek FM back then, then the Sequerra. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu May 17 02:43:46 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Heathkit Fall 1978 catalog now on-line; H-8, H-11, H-9 and ET-3400. Message-ID: >I have been looking all over for the model number of a fancy digital fm >tuner that heathkit made about 1978. It was unusual because it had a keypad Heathkit AJ1510, it was in the first half of the 70's, and it wasn't very good. One sold on eBay last month. From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu May 17 04:32:05 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: <200105170200.WAA27741@barry.mail.mindspring.net> References: <200105170200.WAA27741@barry.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: Hi Louis, I have a review of the Sorcerer on my website that was taken from the January 1979 issue of 'Creative Computing'. Jeff >Hi all, > >Well, I just got a fabled but seldom seen Exidy Sorcerer. It has a >power supply problem (including the need to be converted back from 220 >to 110V) but I am working on that. > >The Sorcerer was a contemporary of the Apple II, Commodore Pet and >TRS-80 Model 1. It was unique in a number of features, including its >use of an S-100 expansion box. In many respects, it appears to have >been inspired by the SOL 20. > >Info on the web in very sparse. I have nothing but the bare CPU, and >photocopies of some manuals. I would like any info anyone has >available, software, manuals, hardware, etc. Will pay good bucks, or >trade from my vast collection of interesting stuff. > >So, what do you all know? > >Louis -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu May 17 04:39:37 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Using audio cassette In-Reply-To: References: <01051612433100.12418@workshop> from "David Findlay" at May 17, 1 08:09:10 am Message-ID: <3B03B879.16281.482C20A@localhost> > > Well, the reason I wasn't going to use a floppy drive was the fact that I > > would have to build an IDE controller. How hard are they to build? > > You'd not want an IDE controller for a floppy drive (although on most > PCs, the IDE interface -- basically a buffered version of the system bus, > and the floppy controller are on the same board, and maybe in the same ASIC). Well, if we are talking about modern day I/O interface for a home brew system, I'd strongly recomend USB. Single chip USB controlers offer a great deal of flexibility with a simple interface, ready for 8 or 16 bit systems. And you may get almost any peripherals for USB, including _any_ kind of mass storage. Gruss H. P.S.: some years ago I would have used SCSI -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu May 17 04:39:37 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: <200105170200.WAA27741@barry.mail.mindspring.net> References: <200105170059.RAA16574@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <3B03B879.23787.482C21A@localhost> > Well, I just got a fabled but seldom seen Exidy Sorcerer. It has a > power supply problem (including the need to be converted back from 220 > to 110V) but I am working on that. I'd rather suggest not to convert it - a transformer is a way more convineant. And maybe someone from a 220V country may find a 110V unit some day for a trade :) Servus Hans -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu May 17 04:51:18 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Using audio cassette In-Reply-To: References: <01051616442100.00433@workshop> from "David Findlay" at May 17, 1 08:09:30 am Message-ID: <3B03BB36.302.48D74FE@localhost> > > On Wednesday 16 May 2001 14:05, Sellam Ismail hit his keyboard with a hammer > > and this was the result: > > > You're assuming he won't do something clever such as add an electronic > > > counter so he can fast forward to just before the desired block? > > I was planing on this. I will have a block of sound at the start of the tape, > > that will indicate what is 1 second for this recorder. This will calibrate it > > to be able to seek the second of the tape it wants. It will then read in the > > FAT and seek the file directly. > Remember that the tape speed is not constant (assuming constant speed > motors) in fast forward or rewind mode. Because the diameter of the > spools changes as tape winds on/off them. > Some people have tried clever tricks where they put some kind of > tachometer (slotted disk + optoswitch, or tachogenerator) on each spool. > By measuring the speed of both of them, they can work out roughly where > they are on the tape, and also, by counting _both_ sets of tacho pulses > it's possible to do a reasonably accurate seek. It's still generally > necessary to format the tape (as in writing down block headers and dummy > data) when you first use a new blank tape, and then seeking by going to > approximately the right place and then reading a few blocks to get to the > right one. Also this would almost need a seperate CPU for tape control. Otherwise the Computer would be more like a ZX81 - with all the fine tuning needed for timing your programm code with the tape hardware. Although it sounds like a fun project, I would skip this and go for a simple solution. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From alex at linuxhacker.org Thu May 17 06:03:27 2001 From: alex at linuxhacker.org (Alex Holden) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Using audio cassette In-Reply-To: <3B03B879.16281.482C20A@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 May 2001, Hans Franke wrote: > Well, if we are talking about modern day I/O interface for a > home brew system, I'd strongly recomend USB. Single chip USB > controlers offer a great deal of flexibility with a simple > interface, ready for 8 or 16 bit systems. And you may get > almost any peripherals for USB, including _any_ kind of mass > storage. The simple single chip non-PCI USB devices are pretty much all client controllers, not master controllers. That means that they can act as a peripheral themselves, but not interface to other peripherals. -- ------- Alex Holden ------- http://www.linuxhacker.org/ http://www.robogeeks.org/ From tim at arti.vub.ac.be Thu May 17 08:10:03 2001 From: tim at arti.vub.ac.be (Tim) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Kaypro manuals available Message-ID: <000a01c0ded2$afa18330$461ab886@vub.ac.be> Thank god for this site About two years ago i got a kaypro II in excellent condition, with a lot of original disks What I am interested in is an sbasic manual, -> ave some left? If anyone has some experience with connecting a HD to it, please let me know tim@arti.vub.ac.be -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010517/fa1fcc42/attachment.html From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 17 08:24:16 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Old chips for new project. In-Reply-To: <20010517052624.98810.qmail@web9501.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010517092222.00a28940@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 10:26 PM 5/16/01 -0700, you wrote: >--- "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > > >Please read below... I did. I think OSU counts as "good size" (50K+ > > students) > > > > I think that 50K+ students is a "bad size". > >It is if you are in Physics 131 with 900+ other students! > > > > CRIPES! If you're near OSU, then you can go to Powell's book > store in > > > Portland... > > > > Where is Portland Ohio? I thought you said "OSU" as in Oregon State University. That's in Oregon in case you can't figure it out. Portland is about an hour north of OSU. Joe >Visit "The Seventh Continent" >http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices >http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From jcook793 at yahoo.com Thu May 17 09:08:30 2001 From: jcook793 at yahoo.com (John Cook) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Fwd: Alpha Computers Order Message-ID: <20010517140830.35623.qmail@web12506.mail.yahoo.com> OK, so which one of you guys got it? :) -John --- cara wrote: > Reply-to: > From: "cara" > Subject: Alpha Computers Order #1269 > Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 15:09:31 -0700 > > Hello John, I am sorry to inform you that the item that you ordered, > Apple > Lisa with floppy disk, is out of stock. Please remember us for all > your > computer needs. Thank you for shopping at Alpha Computers. > > Cara Bergeson > ibuyNW.com, a division of Alpha Computers, Inc. > Phone: 503-684-1111 ext. 251 > Fax: 503-639-4386 > Email: cara@ibuyNW.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From claudew at videotron.ca Thu May 17 09:55:47 2001 From: claudew at videotron.ca (Claude.W) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Slicing open the top of a 48T02 Sun Sparc chip to replace battery is that thing hollow or filled with epoxy? Message-ID: <001501c0dee1$74e8de00$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> Hi I am considering slicing open the part epoxyed to the top of a 48T02 chip to replace or hook up a new 3VDC source. I dont wanna buy a new chip.... My plan is to use a Dremel type cutting wheel and do a "lobotomy" on the module fitted on top of the chip. Then, either connect a new 3VDC source to this (2 alkalines in a battery holder) or simply replace the cells inside. If the thing (the top module with the batt and osc) is not filled with epoxy I imagine this can be done...does anybody know if that module is "hollow" and removing the top will reveal the components inside...??? Or will I just be cutting through solid plastic/epoxy??? Other method would be to slowly grind top of module until components inside are revealed... Alternative method is revealing the wires coming from top part to chip by digging into epoxy on one side and hooking up there (from sun NVRAM faq)... Thanks Claude From allain at panix.com Thu May 17 10:30:39 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Using audio cassette References: Message-ID: <011601c0dee6$54801b60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > ...the speed is kept constant by working out how much > of the (known-length) tape is on each spool (As above) > and controlling the motor speed appropriately. Not > totally trivial to do. Tony you hit on the one and only practical application of Calculus I've had since leaving College 20 years ago, and an amateur application at that. Of course I still respect Calc immensely, in SW it just isn't used. (HW I imagine is a different story). John A. From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Thu May 17 10:33:37 2001 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Slicing open the top of a 48T02 Sun Sparc chip to replace battery is that thing hollow or filled with epoxy? In-Reply-To: <001501c0dee1$74e8de00$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 May 2001 10:55:47 -0400 "Claude.W" wrote: > I am considering slicing open the part epoxyed to the top of a 48T02 chip to > replace or hook up a new 3VDC source. I dont wanna buy a new chip.... I've done this myself... > If the thing (the top module with the batt and osc) is not filled with epoxy > I imagine this can be done...does anybody know if that module is "hollow" > and removing the top will reveal the components inside...??? Or will I just > be cutting through solid plastic/epoxy??? It's solid epoxy. I don't think it would be practical to completely expose the components. > Alternative method is revealing the wires coming from top part to chip by > digging into epoxy on one side and hooking up there (from sun NVRAM faq)... That's the method I used, just exposing part of the wiring from battery to chip. It's not deeply buried, and the FAQ gives the location at the end opposite to Pin 1. I didn't even disconnect the old battery, but simply paralleled my own AA battery holder and fitted two AA batteries. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Thu May 17 10:43:32 2001 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: 74xx orgin In-Reply-To: <10105152338.ZM15744@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 May 2001 22:38:46 GMT Pete Turnbull wrote: > According to Webopaedia and at least one history website, Texas released > the first SSI TTL chips in 1965 and LSTTL in 1970. I've checked my "System 74 Designer's Manual", and it's dated 1973. It includes some reliability figures based on chips manufactured in 1969, though. But an oddity did show up: the chip pinouts sometimes differ between ordinary 74 TTL and the 74H version. A 7401 has a completely different pinout from a 74H01, for instance. And a 7454 has one less input than a 74H54 (it's an AND-OR-INVERT chip). I hadn't spotted that before. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 17 11:05:41 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Using audio cassette In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.0.20010516113338.00b50aa0@pc> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010517110504.01ca0c10@pc> At 10:47 PM 5/16/01 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >Let me see if I understand this... >Why not just record the original digital data on the CD? Note to self and Sellam: ultra-dry sarcasm doesn't always work. - John From foo at siconic.com Thu May 17 10:17:51 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Using audio cassette In-Reply-To: <3B03BB36.302.48D74FE@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 May 2001, Hans Franke wrote: > Also this would almost need a seperate CPU for tape control. Otherwise > the Computer would be more like a ZX81 - with all the fine tuning > needed for timing your programm code with the tape hardware. No, it's more like when you would do a CLOAD command to load from tape...the CPU then spends it's time moving servos, activating relays, and reading/writing data. Once it's done, it goes back to the command shell. > Although it sounds like a fun project, I would skip this and go for a > simple solution. I only suggested on track (at first anyway :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 17 12:07:57 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: OT: OSU Re: Old chips for new project. In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010517092222.00a28940@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 May 2001, joe wrote: > > > Where is Portland Ohio? > I thought you said "OSU" as in Oregon State University. That's > in Oregon in case you can't figure it out. Portland is about an hour north > of OSU. He did say "OSU". As in Ohio State University (which seems to have the most web presence), or Oklahoma State University, or even Osh State University (OSU) in Osh, Kyrgyzstan. Sometimes abbreviations or acronyms don't quite impart enough information. Portland is only a few days drive from Ohio, if he can't find the book online. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu May 17 12:24:39 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Using audio cassette In-Reply-To: References: <3B03B879.16281.482C20A@localhost> Message-ID: <3B042577.30086.62C83E0@localhost> > On Thu, 17 May 2001, Hans Franke wrote: > > Well, if we are talking about modern day I/O interface for a > > home brew system, I'd strongly recomend USB. Single chip USB > > controlers offer a great deal of flexibility with a simple > > interface, ready for 8 or 16 bit systems. And you may get > > almost any peripherals for USB, including _any_ kind of mass > > storage. > The simple single chip non-PCI USB devices are pretty much all client > controllers, not master controllers. That means that they can act as a > peripheral themselves, but not interface to other peripherals. Well, high sophisticated stuff like an Atmel 43USB320 will work fine as host controllers ... and you even can put 'dynamic' hardware in your design (as little programms for the integrated 8 Bit CPU. Or take the Infineon SAB C161U, a nice 16 Bit CPU (or SAB-C541U if you prefer 8051 CPU style - there are similar x51 CPUs from Texas and Intel of course). For all of these some serious twiddeling is required of course. Then there is at least one PowerPC Chip capable of USB Host functions from Motorola: MPC 850 Anf if I remember correctly Cypress offers also a nice uP with USB on board, capable of acting as host ... at least I remember some application note. Of course, there ae simple USB host controllers without a (visible) CPU, like one from Scanlogic with several version, capable to act as root hub or controller and a very fine and universal 8 or 16 Bit interface - my personal favorite - and there is the Transdimension UHC124 - very similar, but additional features. Next there are FPGAs (like the Kawasaki USBx, with or without on chip uP) And last but not least, some companies offer USB Controllers as IP for standard FPGAs (LSI Lucent or Sand) Or, after all take just a serial interface and a USB Transciever :) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From edick at idcomm.com Thu May 17 13:17:36 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:34 2005 Subject: Slicing open the top of a 48T02 Sun Sparc chip to replace battery is that thing hollow or filled with epoxy? References: <001501c0dee1$74e8de00$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> Message-ID: <001d01c0defd$a6a69100$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> You might, in fact, find that it's easiest if you chill the part in your freezer and subsequently use a mallet and chisel to pop off the lid. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Claude.W" To: Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 8:55 AM Subject: Slicing open the top of a 48T02 Sun Sparc chip to replace battery is that thing hollow or filled with epoxy? > Hi > > I am considering slicing open the part epoxyed to the top of a 48T02 chip to > replace or hook up a new 3VDC source. I dont wanna buy a new chip.... > > My plan is to use a Dremel type cutting wheel and do a "lobotomy" on the > module fitted on top of the chip. > > Then, either connect a new 3VDC source to this (2 alkalines in a battery > holder) or simply replace the cells inside. > > If the thing (the top module with the batt and osc) is not filled with epoxy > I imagine this can be done...does anybody know if that module is "hollow" > and removing the top will reveal the components inside...??? Or will I just > be cutting through solid plastic/epoxy??? > > Other method would be to slowly grind top of module until components inside > are revealed... > > Alternative method is revealing the wires coming from top part to chip by > digging into epoxy on one side and hooking up there (from sun NVRAM faq)... > > Thanks > Claude > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu May 17 13:25:32 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: Slicing open the top of a 48T02 Sun Sparc chip to replace battery is that thing hollow or filled with epoxy? References: Message-ID: <002701c0defe$c2848ca0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Once you have the epoxy portion removed, you can go to work on it with solvents like Methyl Ethyl Ketone to soften/dissolve the EPOXY. If it's sufficiently cold, it should pop right off the package to which it's glued if you attack it with a sharp chisel at the boundary between the package and the epoxy-potted appendage. Be sure you consider very carefully and well in advance how you're going to hang onto the thing once you're ready to do the job. This might require you build a holding fixture so you won't damage the device. It might not be a bad idea to consider how you're going to restore the potted portion once you've swapped the battery. In fact, it might not be a bad idea to make a 2-part sandwich so you can replace the battery next time as well but without the need for surgery. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Honniball" To: Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 9:33 AM Subject: Re: Slicing open the top of a 48T02 Sun Sparc chip to replace battery is that thing hollow or filled with epoxy? > > On Thu, 17 May 2001 10:55:47 -0400 "Claude.W" > wrote: > > I am considering slicing open the part epoxyed to the top of a 48T02 chip to > > replace or hook up a new 3VDC source. I dont wanna buy a new chip.... > > I've done this myself... > > > If the thing (the top module with the batt and osc) is not filled with epoxy > > I imagine this can be done...does anybody know if that module is "hollow" > > and removing the top will reveal the components inside...??? Or will I just > > be cutting through solid plastic/epoxy??? > > It's solid epoxy. I don't think it would be practical to > completely expose the components. > > > Alternative method is revealing the wires coming from top part to chip by > > digging into epoxy on one side and hooking up there (from sun NVRAM faq)... > > That's the method I used, just exposing part of the wiring > from battery to chip. It's not deeply buried, and the FAQ > gives the location at the end opposite to Pin 1. I didn't > even disconnect the old battery, but simply paralleled my > own AA battery holder and fitted two AA batteries. > > -- > John Honniball > Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk > University of the West of England > > From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Thu May 17 13:38:35 2001 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: destinking the computers. Message-ID: Slightly OT. Yesterday I listened to a National Public Radio, NPR, segment on people who clean up crime/medical scenes. An example was a person who died in their bathroom and wasn't found for 1 month. They talked about odor removal, they use active enzymes to remove any organic remains. They wore tyvec suits, respirators, double gloves, boots and goggles. Basically they tore out the sheetrock, tile and carpet because the blood and body fluids seep everywhere. Lots of problems with maggots. Company's name was Bioclean. Two ladies with strong stomachs. I'd bet they could destink a computer. Morbid humor on, no offense intended, may not be humorous Probably could clean up after suicidal Microsoft windows programmer. Back to normal Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu May 17 13:41:57 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: "Louis Schulman" "Exidy Sorcerer" (May 16, 21:59) References: <200105170200.WAA27741@barry.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <10105171941.ZM23397@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 16, 21:59, Louis Schulman wrote: > Well, I just got a fabled but seldom seen Exidy Sorcerer. It has a > power supply problem (including the need to be converted back from 220 > to 110V) but I am working on that. That should be fairly easy; you just change the transformer connections inside the case. The 110V setting has two primary windings connected in parallel to the mains; for 240V the black/red and black/yellow wire would have been cut at the mains filter and joined together, putting the two windings in series. There weren't different units for the two voltages; Exidy literally cut the wires as I describe above, and joined them together for the European sales. If it's been set for the "wrong" voltage, it probably has been set for the wrong vertical sync frequency as well. How you change this depends on whether it's a Mark I or Mark 2. If it has three rows of DRAM, or sockets for three rows, it's a Mark 2. For a Mark I, there are 3 jumper sets on the underside of the PCB, beside the ICs in positions 3B and 4B. The first set is a pair of square pads between the rows of pins of 4B; connect them for 60Hz, or disconnect them for 50Hz. The second set is a group of 3 pads between 4B and 3B. Two are nearer 4B, one is nearer 3B, and they're arranged in an L shape. Connect the middle of the L to the other one near 4B for 60Hz; connect the middle of the L to the one nearer 3B for 50Hz. The last set is the other side of 3B; connect the two pads nearest 3B for 60Hz, connect the one nearest row A to the one furthest from 3B for 50Hz. For a Mark 2, it's easier. There's a 4-pole DIP switch at positin 11A on the top side of the PCB. Switch section 1 off for 60Hz, on for 50Hz. > The Sorcerer was a contemporary of the Apple II, Commodore Pet and > TRS-80 Model 1. It was unique in a number of features, including its > use of an S-100 expansion box. In many respects, it appears to have > been inspired by the SOL 20. > > Info on the web in very sparse. I have nothing but the bare CPU, and > photocopies of some manuals. I would like any info anyone has > available, software, manuals, hardware, etc. Will pay good bucks, or > trade from my vast collection of interesting stuff. I have the BASIC ROMs, the original monitor ROMs, patched (bugfixed) monitor ROMs, images of the WP PAC ROMs (anyone got images of the Dev Pac ROMS? Or a WP PAc manual? I used to have all these...). I have both Technical Manuals and the Software Manual, the smaller of the two BASIC manuals, the S100 Expansion Unit Technical Manual, notes on the hardware bugs (eg the RS232 misdesign on the Mark I, for which I have a fix), and some expansion options (eg upgrading 32K Mk1 to 48K). I'm not willing to part with manuals, but I'm happy to lok anything up for you, and the ROM images and my source code is at http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/ExidyROMs/ I've also got some games and other software (not much, I'm afraid, things like Breakout, Galaxians, BASIC Toolkit) which aren't on line, but might be available if you can't find anything elsewhere. I assume you've found: http://www.trailingedge.com/exidy/ http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/manufacturer-exidy/sorcerer.html http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~alexios/MACHINE-ROOM/Exidy_Sorcerer.html http://www.lisp.com.au/~michael/exidy/ http://utopia.knoware.nl/users/stuurmn/exidys.htm http://www.digidome.nl/exidy.htm There are some errors in the last two or three pages (for example, it never used a Z80A, and there was never any version but the 2.1MHz), but still useful information. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Thu May 17 14:00:28 2001 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: Storage medium for longevity of data Message-ID: I seem to remember this thread awhile back. If you search the National Bureau of Standards site there is a reference to etching data onto iridium blanks. The Mormon Church is also interesting in retaining records for > 1000 years. Also look up references to optical tape. Other references include: http://www.slis.ualberta.ca/cap99/jvarney/preserve.htm Preservation of Digital Data http://www.nla.gov.au/niac/meetings/npo95rh.html The digital storage media examined are magnetic tapes and optical disks (including magneto-optical disks). For each medium the claims of manufacturers about their longevity, results of accelerated aging tests, and observations from field sites are presented. Recent research, including that presented by Jeff Rothenberg and by the National Media Laboratory, St. Paul, Minnesota, is noted. The paper concludes that there are at present too many unknowns to commit digital data to currently-available artifacts for anything other than short-term storage. The preferred option is to direct preservation efforts towards solutions which preserve the information content - the digital 'object' - rather than the digital 'artifact'. http://www.uky.edu/~kiernan/DL/hedstrom.html Digital preservation: a time bomb for Digital Libraries Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu May 17 14:03:24 2001 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: Fwd: Alpha Computers Order In-Reply-To: <20010517140830.35623.qmail@web12506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010517190324.78387.qmail@web9503.mail.yahoo.com> Not me. -ethan --- John Cook wrote: > OK, so which one of you guys got it? :) > > -John > > --- cara wrote: > > Reply-to: > > From: "cara" > > Subject: Alpha Computers Order #1269 > > Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 15:09:31 -0700 > > > > Hello John, I am sorry to inform you that the item that you ordered, > > Apple Lisa with floppy disk, is out of stock... ===== Visit "The Seventh Continent" http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From broth at heathers.stdio.com Thu May 17 13:04:17 2001 From: broth at heathers.stdio.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: destinking the computers. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0105171406380E.00795@fatty> THATS SICK..... I wonder if they could do anything with my laundry.... BR On Thu, 17 May 2001, you wrote: > Slightly OT. > Yesterday I listened to a National Public Radio, NPR, segment on people who > clean up crime/medical scenes. An example was a person who died in their > bathroom and wasn't found for 1 month. They talked about odor removal, they > use active enzymes to remove any organic remains. They wore tyvec suits, > respirators, double gloves, boots and goggles. Basically they tore out the > sheetrock, tile and carpet because the blood and body fluids seep > everywhere. Lots of problems with maggots. Company's name was Bioclean. > Two ladies with strong stomachs. I'd bet they could destink a computer. > > Morbid humor on, no offense intended, may not be humorous > Probably could clean up after suicidal Microsoft windows programmer. > Back to normal > > Mike > mmcfadden@cmh.edu -- Brian Roth - System Administrator www.webwirz.com - Old Computer Repository Preoccupation is my main occupation..... From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu May 17 14:05:57 2001 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: Old chips for new project. In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010517092222.00a28940@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <20010517190557.28512.qmail@web9501.mail.yahoo.com> --- joe wrote: > At 10:26 PM 5/16/01 -0700, you wrote: > >--- "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > > > >Please read below... I did. I think OSU counts... > > > > CRIPES! If you're near OSU...Portland... > > I thought you said "OSU" as in Oregon State University. I did say OSU. I also said right after it, "Ohio State (as opposed to Oregon or Oklahoma)" for this very reason. In any case. The aforementioned book is not used at The Ohio State University and is not available at the used book store across the street. -ethan ===== Visit "The Seventh Continent" http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu May 17 13:53:50 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: Slicing open the top of a 48T02 Sun Sparc chip to replace battery is that thing hollow or filled with epoxy? In-Reply-To: "Claude.W" "Slicing open the top of a 48T02 Sun Sparc chip to replace battery is that thing hollow or filled with epoxy?" (May 17, 10:55) References: <001501c0dee1$74e8de00$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> Message-ID: <10105171953.ZM23407@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 17, 10:55, Claude.W wrote: > I am considering slicing open the part epoxyed to the top of a 48T02 chip to > replace or hook up a new 3VDC source. I dont wanna buy a new chip.... > > My plan is to use a Dremel type cutting wheel and do a "lobotomy" on the > module fitted on top of the chip. > > Then, either connect a new 3VDC source to this (2 alkalines in a battery > holder) or simply replace the cells inside. It's a single lithium cell inside > If the thing (the top module with the batt and osc) is not filled with epoxy > I imagine this can be done...does anybody know if that module is "hollow" > and removing the top will reveal the components inside...??? Or will I just > be cutting through solid plastic/epoxy??? It's solid. My colleague James Carter did this for one of his Suns, and he has a picture somewhere, showing a (replacable) battery fitted to the top. I can't find the picture on his web pages, but he mentioned it recently in response to a similar post on this list, so look through the archive... -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu May 17 14:00:20 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: 74xx orgin In-Reply-To: John Honniball "Re: 74xx orgin" (May 17, 16:43) References: Message-ID: <10105172000.ZM23415@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 17, 16:43, John Honniball wrote: > I've checked my "System 74 Designer's Manual", and it's I no longer have my really old Texas TTL data books -- the oldest I have is 1982 -- but didn't one of th eold ones have a short chapter describing the evolution of TTL, S and H series, and LS? I thought it might have dates. > But an oddity did show up: the chip pinouts sometimes > differ between ordinary 74 TTL and the 74H version. A 7401 > has a completely different pinout from a 74H01, for > instance. And a 7454 has one less input than a 74H54 (it's > an AND-OR-INVERT chip). I hadn't spotted that before. Yes, a common pitfall. I got bitten by that :-) And the 74150 has the same number and arrangement of pins as the 74ALS150, but one is 0.6" wide and the other is 0.3" wide! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From kd7bcy at teleport.com Thu May 17 14:56:22 2001 From: kd7bcy at teleport.com (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: OT: OSU Re: Old chips for new project. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Portland is only a few days drive from Ohio, if he can't find the book >online. Don't forget that Powell's is also online... http://www.powells.com. They're even in the phone book in Victoria, B.C.! -- /------------------------------------\ | http://jrollins.tripod.com/ | | KD7BCY kd7bcy@teleport.com | \------------------------------------/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 17 14:09:08 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: LA210 problem with the control lines In-Reply-To: from "Gooijen H" at May 17, 1 09:18:09 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1942 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010517/daf2572e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 17 15:01:01 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: <3B03B879.23787.482C21A@localhost> from "Hans Franke" at May 17, 1 11:39:37 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 880 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010517/f5b1bba4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 17 15:50:36 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: <10105171941.ZM23397@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at May 17, 1 06:41:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5264 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010517/11fc1d96/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 17 15:27:52 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: Using audio cassette In-Reply-To: <011601c0dee6$54801b60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at May 17, 1 11:30:39 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1158 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010517/07c17441/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 17 15:30:55 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: 74xx orgin In-Reply-To: from "John Honniball" at May 17, 1 04:43:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 563 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010517/c2c4bc73/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 17 16:11:36 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: 74xx orgin In-Reply-To: <10105172000.ZM23415@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at May 17, 1 07:00:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 606 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010517/ed8442a1/attachment.ksh From claudew at videotron.ca Thu May 17 16:22:26 2001 From: claudew at videotron.ca (Claude.W) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: See the procedure with photos : Tack on a new battery to a 48T02 Sun Sparc chip... References: <001501c0dee1$74e8de00$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> <10105171953.ZM23407@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <009501c0df17$78a699c0$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> Hi all Tacking on a new 3VDC source to a dead battery on a NVRAM Sun chip... I could not find pics of this anywhere, so while I was doing it, I took a few pics. http://computer_collector.tripod.com/repairs/NVRAMHAK/sunnvramhak.html Most with a steady hand a some soldering experience should be ok. Claude http://computer_collector.tripod.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Pete Turnbull To: Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 2:53 PM Subject: Re: Slicing open the top of a 48T02 Sun Sparc chip to replace battery is that thing hollow or filled with epoxy? > On May 17, 10:55, Claude.W wrote: > > > I am considering slicing open the part epoxyed to the top of a 48T02 chip > to > > replace or hook up a new 3VDC source. I dont wanna buy a new chip.... > > > > My plan is to use a Dremel type cutting wheel and do a "lobotomy" on the > > module fitted on top of the chip. > > > > Then, either connect a new 3VDC source to this (2 alkalines in a battery > > holder) or simply replace the cells inside. > > It's a single lithium cell inside > > > If the thing (the top module with the batt and osc) is not filled with > epoxy > > I imagine this can be done...does anybody know if that module is "hollow" > > and removing the top will reveal the components inside...??? Or will I > just > > be cutting through solid plastic/epoxy??? > > It's solid. My colleague James Carter did this for one of his Suns, and he > has a picture somewhere, showing a (replacable) battery fitted to the top. > I can't find the picture on his web pages, but he mentioned it recently in > response to a similar post on this list, so look through the archive... > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York From rhblake at bigfoot.com Thu May 17 16:42:22 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: destinking the computers. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I stripped a mobile home that was a homicide/suicide in late May and we were asked if we wanted the job in late August. We refrained from taking it until late october when the temps were cool in IL and with simple paint respirators and rubber chemical gloves we stripped the entire interior amd then used a herbicide/pesticide sprayer to spray Clorox on the studs, joists and all the other interior framework that was left to the living room, and burned the stripped materials outside. Waited 3 days with the doors closed and we came back to the odor of the bleach and then sprayed that with water mixed with lysol (concentrate) and waited 4 or 5 more days. Opened the windows and the next day it was spring fresh. Of course our "victims" were only DOA in the house for a few hours but the leftovers stayed all that summer with the windows closed. I've been to DOA scenes prior to that while I was a military cop but you never get used to that particular odor. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of McFadden, Mike > Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 1:39 PM > To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' > Subject: RE: destinking the computers. > > > Slightly OT. > Yesterday I listened to a National Public Radio, NPR, segment on > people who > clean up crime/medical scenes. An example was a person who died in their > bathroom and wasn't found for 1 month. They talked about odor > removal, they > use active enzymes to remove any organic remains. They wore tyvec suits, > respirators, double gloves, boots and goggles. Basically they > tore out the > sheetrock, tile and carpet because the blood and body fluids seep > everywhere. Lots of problems with maggots. Company's name was Bioclean. > Two ladies with strong stomachs. I'd bet they could destink a computer. > > Morbid humor on, no offense intended, may not be humorous > Probably could clean up after suicidal Microsoft windows programmer. > Back to normal > > Mike > mmcfadden@cmh.edu > From optimus at canit.se Wed May 16 18:49:25 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: HP 300 Message-ID: <1733.537T1250T495167optimus@canit.se> This week had a fine start. I walked into a little computer shop which has trays of old ISA cards and sometimes odd equipment which I can buy cheaply. This monday, they had a slightly familiar-looking box on top of a large shipment of PCs. A HP 9000/300! When I asked them what it would cost, they were surprised that they could even charge money for it, and let me have it for 50 crowns. My pleasure. Once I had bought it, though, I though that 9000/300 was a suspiciously low number. Wasn't that some kind of 68010 based machine? And why would such a machine have two Ethernet NICs? It really semed like a waste, but on the underground ride how, I pulled out the big board with all the ports, which seemed notably shinier and newer than the NIC above, and found that it had a 68040. I thus deducted that it must be a 9000/380. Has this machine been upgraded, or did HP simply not bother to identify their machines any closer than the series (in this case 9000/300)? In any case, it came without keyboard, and I read that in order to switch it over to serial terminal mode, one would have to perform a certain manoeuvre via the keyboard. Bloody well thought out, HP! Is there no way to use a serial terminal without any HIL keyboard involved? The machine starts up and beeps a little. It's got not drives installed, but there's a 50-pin "Centronics" connector marked SCSI/FS-HPIB. What is FS-HPIB? Doesn't sound like anything I'd like to feed into my SCSI devices. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. A Spanish MSX Group "Matra" visited to this Fair. I lent Spanish stand to them. They showed and did Promotion play of SEX BOMB BUNNY. And this Game has tema song of Majingar-Z! Why they know Japanese TV animation? K. Ikeda, MSX-Print From optimus at canit.se Wed May 16 19:44:27 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: Using audio cassette In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1192.537T1350T1045151optimus@canit.se> Sellam Ismail skrev: >On Wed, 16 May 2001, David Findlay wrote: >> Using a 90 minute tape, with a 10 second sector size, I would put a >> File allocation table at the start of the tape and that would tell the >> machine where to go to get a piece of data. Has anyone experimented >> with this sort of set up? I figured on audio tape because they are >> small, robust, and cheap. The computer will only be 16-bit so I don't >> think the speed of the storage would be a problem as my files won't be >> that big. It's got to be better than paper tape anyway. >Haave you considered using magnetic tape to build your own drum memory? >Would this even work? I don't know, I've only considered it. How about an approach similar to the Sinclair Microdrive, using an endless loop (curled up in a zigzag fashion inside the cassette)? That way, seeking on the tape should be easier, since you'd only need to be able to roll the tape in one direction without any rewinds. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. If you consistently take an antagonistic approach, however, people are going to start thinking you're from New York. :-) --Larry Wall to Dan Bernstein in <10187@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV> From pdp11 at bellsouth.net Thu May 17 17:52:41 2001 From: pdp11 at bellsouth.net (Doug Carman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: Slicing open the top of a 48T02 Sun Sparc chip to replace battery is that thing hollow or filled with epoxy? References: Message-ID: <3B045639.752CD103@bellsouth.net> John Honniball wrote: > > That's the method I used, just exposing part of the wiring > from battery to chip. It's not deeply buried, and the FAQ > gives the location at the end opposite to Pin 1. I didn't > even disconnect the old battery, but simply paralleled my > own AA battery holder and fitted two AA batteries. > I have used the same method, but used a button style battery and a holder that I bought at Radio Shack. -- Doug Carman pdp11@bellsouth.net From jim at calico.litterbox.com Thu May 17 17:54:21 2001 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: tape drives Message-ID: <200105172254.QAA20364@calico.litterbox.com> The commodore tape drive system apparently put a header at the start of each file. You could fast forward through the tape manually until you got to about where the file you wanted was. Of course, most of us just bought 10 minute computer grade tapes and put one program or whatever on each side... -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From mranalog at home.com Thu May 17 18:15:50 2001 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: Magnetic Drum Storage WAS Re: Using audio cassette Message-ID: <3B045BA6.B66BA83D@home.com> "Hans Franke" said: > Well, as long as you think along a 'real' drum with flying heads > etc. you're right, but there is a simple solution - take a card > board tube and warp regular cassete tape around, and let a head > read/write this tape ... if you take an old style washing powder > drum (ca. 30 cm diameter / 1 ft) you get a lenght of about 1m > (3 ft 4") - what was the usual speed of cassetes ? 4 cm/s ? I'm > not shure (Tony ?), as a rough estimation you get a track size > of some 3 kByte and an average access time of 12s not to bad ... I have this really sick and perverted habit of picking up unusual items just in case they might be useful for future projects. All of this talk about building a drum storage reminded me of something that I added to my eclectic resource pile a few years ago, an old drum type fax machine. But, when it comes to adding mass storage to a digital computer system, IMHO I can't think of anything faster, easier, or more reliable than the old Commodore 1541. * The DOS is built-in. * Only the system side communication routines need to be written and there is commented source code to use as examples. * The drive side communication routines can also be rewritten. * Since the communication with the drive is normally handled with very robust handshaking, the speed of the computer system is totally unimportant. This also means that disk I/O can be easily interrupted. * And additional drives can be daisy-chained on the same bus. Regards, --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ========================================= From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu May 17 18:22:56 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: 74xx orgin In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: 74xx orgin" (May 17, 22:11) References: Message-ID: <10105180022.ZM23585@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 17, 22:11, Tony Duell wrote: > > Yes, a common pitfall. I got bitten by that :-) And the 74150 has the > > same number and arrangement of pins as the 74ALS150, but one is 0.6" wide > > and the other is 0.3" wide! > > Most of the 24 pin chips in the 'modern' familes (things like the 74F181 > and 74HC154) are 0.3" wide. The 'traditional' ones (74181, 74S181, > 74LS154, etc) are 0.6" wide. Don't ask how I found that out. > > Suffice it to say I have commerical instruments where the PCB was set out > for a 0.6" wide chip. In said space is a header plug, soldered to which > is the 0.3" 'modern' version with the pins bent out sideways. :-) A solution I've seen is more "three-dimensional". Take one 24-pin 0.3"-wide wirewrap socket. Bend the pins so they fit into a 0.6"-wide socket. Fit new IC to "upper" socket and fit this to the "lower" one. If liked, mould "power bulge" into the hood. Or cut ventilation hole. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From louiss at gate.net Thu May 17 18:48:31 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: <3B03B879.23787.482C21A@localhost> Message-ID: <200105172348.TAA25250@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> On Thu, 17 May 2001 11:39:37 +0200, Hans Franke wrote: #> Well, I just got a fabled but seldom seen Exidy Sorcerer. It has a #> power supply problem (including the need to be converted back from 220 #> to 110V) but I am working on that. # #I'd rather suggest not to convert it - a transformer is a way #more convineant. And maybe someone from a 220V country may find #a 110V unit some day for a trade :) # #Servus #Hans # The conversion is very simple. The two coils of the transformer are wired in serial for 220V, parallel for 110V. It was set at the factory. Someone can put it back to 220V in the future if they want to. Louis From louiss at gate.net Thu May 17 18:55:30 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: <10105171941.ZM23397@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <200105172355.TAA05686@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> On Thu, 17 May 2001 18:41:57 GMT, Pete Turnbull wrote: #On May 16, 21:59, Louis Schulman wrote: # #> Well, I just got a fabled but seldom seen Exidy Sorcerer. It has a #> power supply problem (including the need to be converted back from 220 #> to 110V) but I am working on that. # #That should be fairly easy; you just change the transformer connections #inside the case. The 110V setting has two primary windings connected in #parallel to the mains; for 240V the black/red and black/yellow wire would #have been cut at the mains filter and joined together, putting the two #windings in series. # #There weren't different units for the two voltages; Exidy literally cut the #wires as I describe above, and joined them together for the European sales. # #If it's been set for the "wrong" voltage, it probably has been set for the #wrong vertical sync frequency as well. How you change this depends on #whether it's a Mark I or Mark 2. If it has three rows of DRAM, or sockets #for three rows, it's a Mark 2. # #For a Mark I, there are 3 jumper sets on the underside of the PCB, beside #the ICs in positions 3B and 4B. The first set is a pair of square pads #between the rows of pins of 4B; connect them for 60Hz, or disconnect them #for 50Hz. The second set is a group of 3 pads between 4B and 3B. Two are #nearer 4B, one is nearer 3B, and they're arranged in an L shape. Connect #the middle of the L to the other one near 4B for 60Hz; connect the middle #of the L to the one nearer 3B for 50Hz. The last set is the other side of #3B; connect the two pads nearest 3B for 60Hz, connect the one nearest row A #to the one furthest from 3B for 50Hz. # #For a Mark 2, it's easier. There's a 4-pole DIP switch at positin 11A on #the top side of the PCB. Switch section 1 off for 60Hz, on for 50Hz. # #> The Sorcerer was a contemporary of the Apple II, Commodore Pet and #> TRS-80 Model 1. It was unique in a number of features, including its #> use of an S-100 expansion box. In many respects, it appears to have #> been inspired by the SOL 20. #> #> Info on the web in very sparse. I have nothing but the bare CPU, and #> photocopies of some manuals. I would like any info anyone has #> available, software, manuals, hardware, etc. Will pay good bucks, or #> trade from my vast collection of interesting stuff. # #I have the BASIC ROMs, the original monitor ROMs, patched (bugfixed) #monitor ROMs, images of the WP PAC ROMs (anyone got images of the Dev Pac #ROMS? Or a WP PAc manual? I used to have all these...). I have both #Technical Manuals and the Software Manual, the smaller of the two BASIC #manuals, the S100 Expansion Unit Technical Manual, notes on the hardware #bugs (eg the RS232 misdesign on the Mark I, for which I have a fix), and #some expansion options (eg upgrading 32K Mk1 to 48K). # #I'm not willing to part with manuals, but I'm happy to lok anything up for #you, and the ROM images and my source code is at #http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/ExidyROMs/ # #I've also got some games and other software (not much, I'm afraid, things #like Breakout, Galaxians, BASIC Toolkit) which aren't on line, but might be #available if you can't find anything elsewhere. # #I assume you've found: #http://www.trailingedge.com/exidy/ #http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/manufacturer-exidy/sorcerer.html #http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~alexios/MACHINE-ROOM/Exidy_Sorcerer.html #http://www.lisp.com.au/~michael/exidy/ #http://utopia.knoware.nl/users/stuurmn/exidys.htm #http://www.digidome.nl/exidy.htm # #There are some errors in the last two or three pages (for example, it never #used a Z80A, and there was never any version but the 2.1MHz), but still #useful information. # Thanks, Peter. This is very helpful. I had figured out reversing the serial to parallel wiring, but didn't know about the dip switch settings. Mind is obviously the Mark 2. Is there some way I could get copies of the manuals? Also, is there some way to create a ROM Pack? I really could use the Standard Basic ROM pack. Assuming I burn the chip, what else is there to the circuit? Louis From louiss at gate.net Thu May 17 19:02:54 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200105180003.UAA23468@tisch.mail.mindspring.net> On Thu, 17 May 2001 21:50:36 +0100 (BST), Tony Duell wrote: #> #> On May 16, 21:59, Louis Schulman wrote: #> #> > Well, I just got a fabled but seldom seen Exidy Sorcerer. It has a #> > power supply problem (including the need to be converted back from 220 #> > to 110V) but I am working on that. #> #> That should be fairly easy; you just change the transformer connections #> inside the case. The 110V setting has two primary windings connected in #> parallel to the mains; for 240V the black/red and black/yellow wire would #> have been cut at the mains filter and joined together, putting the two #> windings in series. # # #Pete will know this, but a word of warning for anyone else trying that. #It's _essential_ that you have the 2 windings the right way round ('in #phase'), otherwise you are effectively shorting out the output of a #110V-220V autotransformer when you make the second connection. Which will #result in a blown fuse at best and a ruined transformer at worst. # #The safest way to do it (even if you have a manual showing the right #connections) is to do the following: # #1) Disconnect the secondary winding leads from the computer (you want no #load on the transformer) # #2) Cut the joint between the 2 primary windings (the bk/r and bk/y wires #that Pete mentioned), leaving the other primary winding wires in place. #These will be connected to the mains switch/filter in general. # #3) Check for continuity between the 2 cut ends and the other 2 primary #(black/something) wires, which will be connected to the switch/filter/etc. # #4) Connect one of the 'cut' wires to the transformer primary wire at the #switch/filter/etc that it _doesn't_ show any continuity to. By doing that #you've connected one of the 110V primary windings across the mains. # #5) Insulate the other cut end for the moment (it is connected to the live #mains side of the PSU after all). Connect an AC voltmeter to a secondary #winding. Switch on and check that you get something on the meter. Switch #off and unplug # #6) Connect an AC voltmeter, good to 220V at least, between the remaining #'cut end' and the other primary wire at the output of the #switch/filter/etc. Switch on again. You should get essentially 0V on the #meter. If you get 220V, then you've got a winding connected backwards #(how you could do this following the above steps is a mystery, but it's #better to be safe). # #7) Assuming it's OK, unplug it again, remove the meter, and connect the #remaining uncut end to the tag (i.e. effectively short out the meter). #Test the output voltage again o nthe secondary windings, and if it all #looks OK, reconnect the secondary to the PCB, etc. # # #Some schematics to help understand the above : # #220V wiring : 2 primary windings in series : # # # L-----------------------)|| # )|| # )|| # )||(--------------- # )||( # +------)||( # | ||( Secondary winding output # | ||( # +------)||( # )||( # )||(---------------- # )|| # )|| # N----------------------)|| # # #First test : One primary across 120V mains, other not used : # # L-------------+---------)|| # | )|| # | )|| # | )||(--------------- # | )||( # | +----)||( # | ||( Secondary winding output # | ||( # +---------)||( # )||( # )||(---------------- # )|| # )|| # N----------------------)|| # # # #Check secondary output voltage on no-load just to make sure it's doing #something. # # #Second test : Check primary phase is correct using voltmeter : # # # L-------------+---------)|| # | )|| # | )|| # | )||(--------------- # | )||( # | +----)||( # | | ||( Secondary winding output # | | ||( # +----)----)||( # | )||( # | )||(---------------- # (V) )|| # | )|| # N-----------------+----)|| # # #Voltmeter should read close to 0V in that circuit. If not, reverse #connections to _one_ primary winding. # # #FInal wiring for 110V mains : both primaries in parallel : # # # L-------------+---------)|| # | )|| # | )|| # | )||(--------------- # | )||( # | +----)||( # | | ||( Secondary winding output # | | ||( # +----)----)||( # | )||( # | )||(---------------- # | )|| # | )|| # N-----------------+----)|| # # # #-tony # Thanks Tony, Very helpful. I had already figured this out (and had used a voltmeter for continuity testing before hooking everything back up. In any event, on my Sorecerer, the wires are different colors! And the colors don't go where you would guess they go. Lesson: Don't depend on the colors! Louis From edick at idcomm.com Thu May 17 20:34:19 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: Slicing open the top of a 48T02 Sun Sparc chip to replace battery is that thing hollow or filled with epoxy? References: <3B045639.752CD103@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <001701c0df3a$a9013620$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> That's a different device than what I thought it was. There are some interesting little MCU's that have a ceramic package and a plastic potted cap over the top, containing, among other things, a battery. That's what I believed you guys were fiddling with. Has anybody tried one of the DALLAS "smart socket" products with this thingie? It would seem to me that the smart socket (if that's the one with the battery in the bottom, would be just the thing to "fix" this sort of battery aging problem without surgery. Similarly, if one were to pot a couple of batteries into the bottom of a socket and put a schottky diode between the battery output and the Vcc pin, it should work fine when Vcc isn't there to keep the IC powered up. It seems to me that the DALLAS device manages the nWR signal as well, so funny things don't happen during power-transients. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Carman" To: Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 4:52 PM Subject: Re: Slicing open the top of a 48T02 Sun Sparc chip to replace battery is that thing hollow or filled with epoxy? > John Honniball wrote: > > > > That's the method I used, just exposing part of the wiring > > from battery to chip. It's not deeply buried, and the FAQ > > gives the location at the end opposite to Pin 1. I didn't > > even disconnect the old battery, but simply paralleled my > > own AA battery holder and fitted two AA batteries. > > > I have used the same method, but used a button style battery and a > holder that I bought at Radio Shack. > > -- > Doug Carman > pdp11@bellsouth.net > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu May 17 20:39:01 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: tape drives References: <200105172254.QAA20364@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <001d01c0df3b$50eabf00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Some guys who wrote their own audio tape handling software put separate records with gaps between them on their tapes, then put a marker of some sort, i.e, a burst of a frequency only recognizable as the tape move in "fast" mode, which could then be recognized the way the APS function on audio tapes works. This was, of course, only useful on drives with solenoid controls or with some other speed control, but it did work. The Coleco ADAM (?) or some other similar setup used a computer-controllable drive. That could have been exploited in such a way as to allow multiple programs to be recorded on the tape. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Strickland" To: "classiccmp" Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 4:54 PM Subject: tape drives > The commodore tape drive system apparently put a header at the start of each > file. You could fast forward through the tape manually until you got to about > where the file you wanted was. Of course, most of us just bought 10 minute > computer grade tapes and put one program or whatever on each side... > -- > Jim Strickland > jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > BeOS Powered! > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From jhfine at idirect.com Thu May 17 20:37:46 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: 544 References: Message-ID: <3B047CEA.849E1EEF@idirect.com> >Merle K. Peirce wrote: > We visited Syosset, NY to pick up a Datamaster that Rich Cini gave us, > and this morning receieved a frantic e-mail about some DEC equipment in > Danvers. The owning company was transferring some of its operations to > Texas, and we were given what amounted to a small DEC computer room - > platters, tapes, platter cabinets, a CDC 9762 drive, a micro-Vax, a > PDP-11/53, and a 3-cabinet PDP11/83, plus a large number of orange and > grey manuals. Jerome Fine replies: I have access to a PDP-11/83 in a BA123 cabinet. Although the ESDI hard drives run outside the box due to cooling problems, unless I added a cabinet for some RL02 drives just for compatibility, what could an 11/83 consist of that would need 3 cabinets? Also, which OS were the PDP-11 systems running? And anything available to be shared or sold? I guess that if the 11/83 was very old, a few tape drives and RA81s could occupy even more than 3 cabinets. I guess I am thinking in terms of hardware which is just 10 years old. Those ESDI hard drives are 600 MBytes each and are only the 5 1/4" full height drives on a Sigma RQD11-EC controller. Even Seagate put out the ST8760E more than 10 years ago. Of course, the actual real hardware 11/83 rarely gets any use now that the a Pentium III can run all that code at ten times the speed of the 11/83. What will happen when we switch to a Pentium IV running at 1.7 GHz.? Note that I am not saying the Pentium IV is better - only that it ends up running the programs written for the real PDP-11 hardware so much faster that it is no longer efficient to develop and test code on the 11/83 except for a final checkout just to say it has been tested on the actual real PDP-11 system. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From edick at idcomm.com Thu May 17 20:45:50 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: 74xx orgin References: <10105180022.ZM23585@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <002701c0df3c$46a627e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> If height gets to be a problem, you can take a 0.30" wide header and solder it onto the bottom of a 0.6" wide part by spreading the contacts on the header. That lowers the profile considerably and solves the pin-spacing problem too, as once they're spread by bending themout at 90 degrees, they'll just barely reach the pins that are folded underneath the IC. Also, if you solder an SMT part onto a 0.6" header, that combination is often not only lower but cheaper too. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Turnbull" To: Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 5:22 PM Subject: Re: 74xx orgin > On May 17, 22:11, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Yes, a common pitfall. I got bitten by that :-) And the 74150 has > the > > > same number and arrangement of pins as the 74ALS150, but one is 0.6" > wide > > > and the other is 0.3" wide! > > > > Most of the 24 pin chips in the 'modern' familes (things like the 74F181 > > and 74HC154) are 0.3" wide. The 'traditional' ones (74181, 74S181, > > 74LS154, etc) are 0.6" wide. Don't ask how I found that out. > > > > Suffice it to say I have commerical instruments where the PCB was set out > > for a 0.6" wide chip. In said space is a header plug, soldered to which > > is the 0.3" 'modern' version with the pins bent out sideways. > > :-) A solution I've seen is more "three-dimensional". Take one 24-pin > 0.3"-wide wirewrap socket. Bend the pins so they fit into a 0.6"-wide > socket. Fit new IC to "upper" socket and fit this to the "lower" one. If > liked, mould "power bulge" into the hood. Or cut ventilation hole. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > > From louiss at gate.net Thu May 17 21:10:42 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: Exidy Sorcerer: Next problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200105180210.WAA21781@hall.mail.mindspring.net> OK, the power supply works! I have power on the motherboard. Now on to the next problem. When attached to a composite monitor, I get video, but it is a rolling/pulsing screen. Yes, I have the sync set to 60 Hz. So, can you supply a troubleshooting procedure to find where the problem lies? Again, keep in mind that this is a Sorcerer II (with apparently 32K in Rows 2 and 3, is this the proper configuration)? Thanks, Louis From gregorym at cadvision.com Thu May 17 21:29:02 2001 From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: Books available Message-ID: <001b01c0df42$62206660$0100a8c0@hal-9000-2> I have some vintage books that are surplus to requirements, and are free* to any list member who wants to pay shipping. They are: 6809 Assembly Language Programming, by Lance Leventhal (Osborne/McGraw Hill, 1981) Motorola MC6809-MC6809E Microprocessor Programming Manual (May 1983 printing) PL/1 Structured Programming 2nd Ed., by Joan K. Hughes (John Wiley & Sons, 1979) Structured PL/1 (PL/C) Programming, by Jean Paul Tremblay et al. (McGraw Hill, 1980) Structured Programming Using PL/1 and SP/k, by J.N.P. Hume and R.C. Holt (Reston Publishing Co., 1975) Computer Programming RPG II, by Gary Shelly and Thomas Cashman (Anaheim Publishing, 1981) Comprehensive Structured COBOL, by Gary Popkin (Kent Publishing Co, 1984) COBOL Programming A Structured Approach 2nd Ed., by Peter Abel (Reston Publishing, 1984) VAX Basic, by David Weinman and Barbara Kurshan, (Reston Publishing, 1983) 370/360 Assembler Language Programming, by Nancy Stern et al. (John Wiley & Sons, 1979) All are in good, but used, condition. Most were somebody's university textbooks at one time, so there are some marginal notations. Shipping is from T2J 5H9 (Calgary, Alberta, Canada). E-mail me off-list if interested. Take one, take 'em all. Cheers, Mark Gregory * Donations of unneeded Amiga books, magazines, hardware, or software always gratefully accepted. From gregorym at cadvision.com Thu May 17 21:46:16 2001 From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: Books available Message-ID: <002801c0df44$b67ba2e0$0100a8c0@hal-9000-2> >I have some vintage books that are surplus to requirements, and are free* >to any list member who wants to pay shipping. They are: > > E-mail me off-list if >interested. Take one, take 'em all. > Sorry for replying to my own message, but that last line is misleading. I meant to say: "Take one OR take them all". You don't have to take all of them. First come, first served. Mark. From foo at siconic.com Thu May 17 20:53:30 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: tape drives In-Reply-To: <001d01c0df3b$50eabf00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 May 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > speed control, but it did work. The Coleco ADAM (?) or some other > similar setup used a computer-controllable drive. That could have > been exploited in such a way as to allow multiple programs to be > recorded on the tape. The ADAM used a digital tape format. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jpero at sympatico.ca Thu May 17 19:09:49 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: destinking the computers. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20010518040709.ORDX15234.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 19:44:33 -0700 > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > From: Mike Ford > Subject: RE: destinking the computers. > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > >I don't remember the name but there is a cleaner used on electronics that's > >made from orange peels. > > > >pointer to degreaser made from citrus peels > >http://www.dep.state.fl.us/dwm/programs/p2/factsheets/6terpene.pdf > > > >More information about commercial product. > >http://www.ecki.com/vst/prdt487.htm > > Good links, the immediate problem I see for most people is that the pure > stuff is clearly the best, leaves no residue etc., but is typically not > available to consumers. Exactly what I need for that stuff clean up. :-) UPDATE: got around to destink that Mac II. Started on PSU as a experiment. Went very well tore it apart to bits, scrubbed all the PSU parts except PSU boards at first with windex. Later on suggested isopropanol alcohol 99% which I have besides me nearly full and potent. Far better stuff than windex less residues and more pleasent smell than windex and cheap! Took the PSU board to the kitchen sink and drenched it with nearly whole bottle of it slowly. That got most of the stink out but the unwanted bits still there doesn't go away. Wow, PSU looks new again and far less stink, very faint at that now. But I still have deal with this Mac II case... keep your comments coming! That case is worst, it has tin sheet covering 90% of cavities so my only option is drenching it with something more effective than this isopropanol and leave no residues if I have to follow it up with isopropanol rinse. (important!) I might have to eat all the plastic mushrooms off then pull the tin sheets and do old fashioned soap scrub, water rinse then isopropanol scrub 'n rinse to dry up water faster. Then reinstall the tin sheets and find a way to fasten it down. Hey, I love the stinky gory stories that was very informative. Cheers, Wizard From bkr at WildHareComputers.com Thu May 17 23:40:31 2001 From: bkr at WildHareComputers.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: 'cross computer movers referrals References: <20010518040709.ORDX15234.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <009701c0df54$ac445460$0100a8c0@dellhare> Okay, I'm embarrassed. I thought I preserved the thread (+ names) that existed of people's experience with different moving companies moving RETMA-racked equipment. So now I'm asking for senior-moment forgiveness and requesting the names of companies who have moved 5-foot racks of computer equipment -successfully- (!) Will anybody help an ol' man? Bruce bkr@WildHareComputers.com From edick at idcomm.com Fri May 18 00:06:24 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: tape drives References: Message-ID: <000f01c0df58$49380ca0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> That doesn't really matter, since folks figured out soon enough that whatever you could shove through the head was digital enough. The guys clever enough to design passive filters and write code to match easily figured out what the fastest frequency they could reliably shove onto the tape was and then toggled an F/2F code into the input where F was half that rate. It worked GREAT! The issue I was addressing was that the computer could control the tape movement. Perhaps it was an earlier machine that had the electronically controlled audio cassette drive (Commodore?). Nevertheless, if you run the tape by the heads even if the tape isn't being pressed against it, with any tension at all you should be able to pick up a signal burst on the order of 2 khz at the accelerated speed. That can be a record mark. The fellow who designed the original set of 6502 computer boards I used managed to build a nominally 5600 bps audio cassette interface channel in a PCB area about the size of a dime, using only one port bit in and out. If one wrote to tape while it was in the fast transport speed (which not all transports can do) then you could easily detect that there was signal, while the program, written at slow speed (1-7/8 ips ?) didn't pass the filter. That can be done with the right transport. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 7:53 PM Subject: Re: tape drives > On Thu, 17 May 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > speed control, but it did work. The Coleco ADAM (?) or some other > > similar setup used a computer-controllable drive. That could have > > been exploited in such a way as to allow multiple programs to be > > recorded on the tape. > > The ADAM used a digital tape format. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From epgroot at ucdavis.edu Fri May 18 00:28:03 2001 From: epgroot at ucdavis.edu (Edwin P. Groot) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: HP 300 In-Reply-To: <1733.537T1250T495167optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010517222803.007be100@yellow.ucdavis.edu> Hi Iggy, I don't think it was upgraded. I have the 310, the lowest in the series - the one with the 68010 CPU. My box also says "HP 9000 300", not "310". There is hardware information at: http://www.blobulent.com/hp300/FAQ/rossspon/hp300faq.htm Just today I completed this system by finding an HP-IB cable in the trash. I started with the box, which has video, serial and HP-IB. Then I found an HP-IB drive unit. Then came a monitor that had the requisite BNC connectors, and then some BNC cabling. The ROM on bootup reports its version, the CPU, and the addresses of interfaces. Have not tried the drive yet. Good luck, Edwin At 12:49 AM 5/17/2001 +0100, you wrote: >found that it had a 68040. I thus deducted that it must be a 9000/380. Has >this machine been upgraded, or did HP simply not bother to identify their >machines any closer than the series (in this case 9000/300)? > >The machine starts up and beeps a little. It's got not drives installed, but >there's a 50-pin "Centronics" connector marked SCSI/FS-HPIB. What is FS-HPIB? Fast Speed - HP-IB??? >Doesn't sound like anything I'd like to feed into my SCSI devices. > >-- >En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From foo at siconic.com Thu May 17 23:57:29 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: 'cross computer movers referrals In-Reply-To: <009701c0df54$ac445460$0100a8c0@dellhare> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 May 2001, Bruce Ray wrote: > I thought I preserved the thread (+ names) that existed of people's > experience with different moving companies moving RETMA-racked > equipment. So now I'm asking for senior-moment forgiveness and > requesting the names of companies who have moved 5-foot racks of > computer equipment -successfully- (!) Old man, Try Forward Air: http://www.forwardair.com Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jarkko.teppo at er-grp.com Fri May 18 01:59:18 2001 From: jarkko.teppo at er-grp.com (jarkko.teppo@er-grp.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: HP 300 In-Reply-To: <1733.537T1250T495167optimus@canit.se>; from optimus@canit.se on Thu, May 17, 2001 at 12:49:25AM +0100 References: <1733.537T1250T495167optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <20010518095918.A4967@mail.er-grp.com> On Thu, May 17, 2001 at 12:49:25AM +0100, Iggy Drougge wrote: > found that it had a 68040. I thus deducted that it must be a 9000/380. Has > this machine been upgraded, or did HP simply not bother to identify their > machines any closer than the series (in this case 9000/300)? If you look how easily you can pull out the board then it actually makes sense. Just provide a box with DIO-II/I slots and basically you can build anything from 310 to 380 inside. If the main board looks like this: http://www.tec.puv.fi/~s99137/kuvat/380takaa2.jpg http://www.tec.puv.fi/~s99137/kuvat/380takaa.jpg Then you have a 380. The machine in those crummy pictures has a DIO-I expansion cab. > > In any case, it came without keyboard, and I read that in order to switch it > over to serial terminal mode, one would have to perform a certain manoeuvre > via the keyboard. Bloody well thought out, HP! Is there no way to use a serial > terminal without any HIL keyboard involved? There might be a way. Start out by removing the framebuffer and then try some serial magic. > The machine starts up and beeps a little. It's got not drives installed, but > there's a 50-pin "Centronics" connector marked SCSI/FS-HPIB. What is FS-HPIB? > Doesn't sound like anything I'd like to feed into my SCSI devices. > The machine can do Fast HP-IB or SCSI from the mainboard. The SCSI connector goes directly to the main board via a flat cable but the FS-HPIB has some electronics just behind the connector. I'd guess you have the SCSI-version. It's a lovely machine btw. -- jht From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri May 18 02:25:09 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: "Louis Schulman" "Re: Exidy Sorcerer" (May 17, 19:55) References: <200105172355.TAA05686@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <10105180825.ZM23874@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 17, 19:55, Louis Schulman wrote: > Thanks, Peter. This is very helpful. I had figured out reversing the > serial to parallel wiring, but didn't know about the dip switch > settings. Mind is obviously the Mark 2. My original one was, too. However, I sold it in 1982 and the one I have now is a Mark 1. Does yours have 48K? It's easy to add extra memory to bring it up to full spec, but there is a timing problem that affects some boards when you fit the third bank. I was unlucky and spent days trying to figure out what was wrong when I bought the extra 8 chips, so eventually I sent it to a Sorcerer dealer/repeairer and he not only modified it but gave me a diagram showing the fix. > Is there some way I could get copies of the manuals? Not very easily. I don't have access to a scanner at the moment. However, David Williams has quite a lot on his Trailing Edge website. > Also, is there > some way to create a ROM Pack? I really could use the Standard Basic > ROM pack. Assuming I burn the chip, what else is there to the circuit? That's not too hard. The Pac consists of a PCB with 4 x 2316 ROMs and a 2-chip decoder circuit, all mounted inside an 8-track tape cartridge shell. It's perfectly possible to build a replacement using a single 2764 and a 74LS10. With a little care, the bare PCB can be inserted into the cartridge slot, so you don't even need to cannibalise a "rare" 8-track cartridge. I have a drawing for such a PCB which I'll put on my website for you. Look for it at http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/ExidyROMs/ROMPacPCB.ps Minor caveat: although the date on the file tells me I drew this years ago, the need to use it went away and I never built a prototype. It should work, though. There are 17 places to put track pins to connect one side to the other, two places to put capacitors (a 6V 10mfd tantalum and a 100nF ceramic), at the end of the 74LS10 location, and both IC locations indicate pin 1 by a square (instead of oval) pad. The ROM images are already there, just concatenate them (in order) to make a 2764. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri May 18 02:43:55 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: Slicing open the top of a 48T02 Sun Sparc chip to replace battery is that thing hollow or filled with epoxy? In-Reply-To: "Richard Erlacher" "Re: Slicing open the top of a 48T02 Sun Sparc chip to replace battery is that thing hollow or filled with epoxy?" (May 17, 19:34) References: <3B045639.752CD103@bellsouth.net> <001701c0df3a$a9013620$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <10105180843.ZM23882@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 17, 19:34, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Has anybody tried one of the DALLAS "smart socket" products with this thingie? Unfortunately the 48T02 is a TOD clock and calendar as well as NVRAM, so there's no suitable SmartSocket to replace it. The registers have to be at particular places and use a particular protocol too. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri May 18 04:17:50 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: Using audio cassette In-Reply-To: <1192.537T1350T1045151optimus@canit.se> References: Message-ID: <3B0504DE.27335.9952CC1@localhost> > >> Using a 90 minute tape, with a 10 second sector size, I would put a > >> File allocation table at the start of the tape and that would tell the > >> machine where to go to get a piece of data. Has anyone experimented > >> with this sort of set up? I figured on audio tape because they are > >> small, robust, and cheap. The computer will only be 16-bit so I don't > >> think the speed of the storage would be a problem as my files won't be > >> that big. It's got to be better than paper tape anyway. > >Haave you considered using magnetic tape to build your own drum memory? > >Would this even work? I don't know, I've only considered it. > How about an approach similar to the Sinclair Microdrive, using an endless > loop (curled up in a zigzag fashion inside the cassette)? That way, seeking on > the tape should be easier, since you'd only need to be able to roll the tape > in one direction without any rewinds. Well, there are special cassetes available for answering machines and/or voice services. During the last years most of said apps have been replaced by digital recording, but replacement tapes are still available... usualy they have only a very short length. the maximum I know is good for 5 minutes - most are only good for 30 seconds. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri May 18 04:30:44 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: References: <10105171941.ZM23397@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at May 17, 1 06:41:57 pm Message-ID: <3B0507E4.19719.9A0FC60@localhost> > > On May 16, 21:59, Louis Schulman wrote: > > > Well, I just got a fabled but seldom seen Exidy Sorcerer. It has a > > > power supply problem (including the need to be converted back from 220 > > > to 110V) but I am working on that. > > That should be fairly easy; you just change the transformer connections > > inside the case. The 110V setting has two primary windings connected in > > parallel to the mains; for 240V the black/red and black/yellow wire would > > have been cut at the mains filter and joined together, putting the two > > windings in series. > Pete will know this, but a word of warning for anyone else trying that. > It's _essential_ that you have the 2 windings the right way round ('in > phase'), otherwise you are effectively shorting out the output of a > 110V-220V autotransformer when you make the second connection. Which will > result in a blown fuse at best and a ruined transformer at worst. > The safest way to do it [...long and good description deleted...] That's exactly why I find a transformer a convenient solution. Just plug it in and that's it. Gruss H. P.S.: yes, I know how to handle this type of task, but avoiding unnecersary work is better idea :) -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri May 18 04:30:44 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:35 2005 Subject: Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: References: <3B03B879.23787.482C21A@localhost> from "Hans Franke" at May 17, 1 11:39:37 am Message-ID: <3B0507E4.32143.9A0FC50@localhost> > > > Well, I just got a fabled but seldom seen Exidy Sorcerer. It has a > > > power supply problem (including the need to be converted back from 220 > > > to 110V) but I am working on that. > > I'd rather suggest not to convert it - a transformer is a way > > more convineant. And maybe someone from a 220V country may find > This is obviously a new definition of 'convenient'. I can't see anything > more convenient about using an external transformer comapared to > resoldering a couple of leads in the PSU. > Yes, I do have a 110V step-down transformer here, for testing US stuff, > and for running units that can't easily be converted. But most machines > get converted to 240V in the end -- ther worst I've ever had to do was > replace the internal mains transformer. Most of the time it's just moving > links, or resoldering the wires on the primary side of the transformer. AFAIR you also have to use either 'adaptor plugs - or fit a new pwower cable, since the Sorcerer had a fixed one. And there is nothing more stupid in the world of power transmission than these plugs ... Unless the PS is already switchable and there is a Kaltgeraetestecker (no idea how these inlet connectors are called in english, where the power cord is detatchable) I always keep the original condition - for the short time I play around with a specific unit (seldom more than a few weeks) a stepdown transformer is a fine solution. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri May 18 04:34:55 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: tape drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >The ADAM used a digital tape format. Was there ever a program released that allowed you to format your own tapes on the ADAM? I've never seen mention of one. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jss at ou.edu Fri May 18 07:11:46 2001 From: jss at ou.edu (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: PDP-11/34 on eBay... NOT... NOT Message-ID: <990187906.3b051182d5689@email.ou.edu> It seems that someone told the seller his PDP-11/34 didn't have CPU cards. The seller ended the auction and relisted, this time with a bullet point saying "Sorry there are no CPU cards". -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@ou.edu From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri May 18 07:16:08 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: HP 300 In-Reply-To: <1733.537T1250T495167optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010518080439.00a01220@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 12:49 AM 5/17/01 +0100, Iggy wrote: >This week had a fine start. I walked into a little computer shop which has >trays of old ISA cards and sometimes odd equipment which I can buy cheaply. >This monday, they had a slightly familiar-looking box on top of a large >shipment of PCs. A HP 9000/300! When I asked them what it would cost, they >were surprised that they could even charge money for it, and let me have it >for 50 crowns. My pleasure. Once I had bought it, though, I though that >9000/300 was a suspiciously low number. Wasn't that some kind of 68010 based >machine? The low end ones are 68010 based but the more powerfull models of 300 series use the other more powerfull 680x0 CPUs and lots more memory. >And why would such a machine have two Ethernet NICs? It really semed >like a waste, but on the underground ride how, I pulled out the big board with >all the ports, which seemed notably shinier and newer than the NIC above, and >found that it had a 68040. I thus deducted that it must be a 9000/380. Has >this machine been upgraded, or did HP simply not bother to identify their >machines any closer than the series (in this case 9000/300)? No, they usually just mark them as 300s on the case. However if you look inside the grill on the back that covers the power supply you'll see the actual model number. >In any case, it came without keyboard, and I read that in order to switch it >over to serial terminal mode, one would have to perform a certain manoeuvre >via the keyboard. Bloody well thought out, HP! Is there no way to use a serial >terminal without any HIL keyboard involved? I'm not sure I understand your question but usually you can use a serial terminal connected to serial port one or you can use the HP_HIL keyboard and a monitor. You usually have to change a switch inside to tell it which to use. I think one of the Net-BSD websites tells you how to do it. Other than that, you'll need the HP_HIL keyboard. At least the HIL keyboards are standard. It could be worse, they could have made a different keyboard for every model! >The machine starts up and beeps a little. It's got not drives installed, but >there's a 50-pin "Centronics" connector marked SCSI/FS-HPIB. What is FS-HPIB? I don't know. The 380 is a bit beyond me. I try to stick to the 200 series and the lesser machines and they don't use that. There are some sites on the net that talk about the 300s and identify the various cards in them and tell how to convert them to Net-BSD so you can probably find some usefull into there. Joe Joe From optimus at canit.se Thu May 17 19:30:01 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: Using audio cassette In-Reply-To: <01051612433100.12418@workshop> Message-ID: <672.538T50T903819optimus@canit.se> David Findlay skrev: >On Wednesday 16 May 2001 11:10, Tony Duell hit his keyboard with a hammer and > this was the result: >> Is there a good reason not to use a floppy drive? You can either design >> your own controller from scratch (not that hard), or use one of the >> single-chip FDCs used in PCs. >Well, the reason I wasn't going to use a floppy drive was the fact that I >would have to build an IDE controller. How hard are they to build? IDE as in ATA-IDE? Since when did floppies run off IDE controllers? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. G? med i SUGA, Swedish Usergroup of Amiga! WWW: http://swedish.usergroup.amiga.tm/ BBS: 08-6582572, telnet://sua.ath.cx:42512 From optimus at canit.se Thu May 17 19:38:46 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: Where to buy Gorilla Banana printers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <339.538T2300T985761optimus@canit.se> Dorothy Heaton skrev tre j?vla g?nger: >Hi Doug, Hi, Dorothy. My name is not Doug. Please shut up. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > (It's sorta like sed, but not. It's sorta like awk, but not. etc.) Guilty as charged. Perl is happily ugly, and happily derivative. --Larry Wall in <1992Aug26.184221.29627@netlabs.com> From at258 at osfn.org Fri May 18 09:30:12 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: 544 In-Reply-To: <3B047CEA.849E1EEF@idirect.com> Message-ID: I'll try to remember. There was one RX02 drive. There was a TK50 tape drive. There may have been a DSP800 drive. Most of the rest of the space was RL02's. There were at least 3. We probably have some spare RL02 platters and some TK50 tape cassettes. System ran RSX-11M. On Thu, 17 May 2001, Jerome Fine wrote: > >Merle K. Peirce wrote: > > > We visited Syosset, NY to pick up a Datamaster that Rich Cini gave us, > > and this morning receieved a frantic e-mail about some DEC equipment in > > Danvers. The owning company was transferring some of its operations to > > Texas, and we were given what amounted to a small DEC computer room - > > platters, tapes, platter cabinets, a CDC 9762 drive, a micro-Vax, a > > PDP-11/53, and a 3-cabinet PDP11/83, plus a large number of orange and > > grey manuals. > > Jerome Fine replies: > > I have access to a PDP-11/83 in a BA123 cabinet. Although the ESDI hard > drives run outside the box due to cooling problems, unless I added a cabinet > for some RL02 drives just for compatibility, what could an 11/83 consist of > that would need 3 cabinets? Also, which OS were the PDP-11 systems > running? And anything available to be shared or sold? > > I guess that if the 11/83 was very old, a few tape drives and RA81s could > occupy even more than 3 cabinets. I guess I am thinking in terms of hardware > which is just 10 years old. Those ESDI hard drives are 600 MBytes each > and are only the 5 1/4" full height drives on a Sigma RQD11-EC controller. > Even Seagate put out the ST8760E more than 10 years ago. > > Of course, the actual real hardware 11/83 rarely gets any use now that > the a Pentium III can run all that code at ten times the speed of the 11/83. > What will happen when we switch to a Pentium IV running at 1.7 GHz.? > Note that I am not saying the Pentium IV is better - only that it ends up > running the programs written for the real PDP-11 hardware so much > faster that it is no longer efficient to develop and test code on the 11/83 > except for a final checkout just to say it has been tested on the actual > real PDP-11 system. > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From at258 at osfn.org Fri May 18 09:32:42 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: destinking the computers. In-Reply-To: <20010518040709.ORDX15234.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: Has anyone tried Skyrite? It's an aircraft cleaner and is pretty good. On Fri, 18 May 2001 jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > > Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 19:44:33 -0700 > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > From: Mike Ford > > Subject: RE: destinking the computers. > > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > >I don't remember the name but there is a cleaner used on electronics that's > > >made from orange peels. > > > > > >pointer to degreaser made from citrus peels > > >http://www.dep.state.fl.us/dwm/programs/p2/factsheets/6terpene.pdf > > > > > >More information about commercial product. > > >http://www.ecki.com/vst/prdt487.htm > > > > Good links, the immediate problem I see for most people is that the pure > > stuff is clearly the best, leaves no residue etc., but is typically not > > available to consumers. > > Exactly what I need for that stuff clean up. > > :-) > > UPDATE: got around to destink that Mac II. Started on PSU as a > experiment. Went very well tore it apart to bits, scrubbed all the > PSU parts except PSU boards at first with windex. Later on > suggested isopropanol alcohol 99% which I have besides me nearly full > and potent. Far better stuff than windex less residues and more > pleasent smell than windex and cheap! > > Took the PSU board to the kitchen sink and drenched it with nearly > whole bottle of it slowly. That got most of the stink out but the > unwanted bits still there doesn't go away. Wow, PSU looks new > again and far less stink, very faint at that now. > > But I still have deal with this Mac II case... keep your comments > coming! That case is worst, it has tin sheet covering 90% of > cavities so my only option is drenching it with something more > effective than this isopropanol and leave no residues if I have to > follow it up with isopropanol rinse. (important!) > > I might have to eat all the plastic mushrooms off then pull the tin > sheets and do old fashioned soap scrub, water rinse then isopropanol > scrub 'n rinse to dry up water faster. Then reinstall the tin sheets > and find a way to fasten it down. > > Hey, I love the stinky gory stories that was very informative. > > Cheers, > > Wizard > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From mbg at world.std.com Fri May 18 10:20:49 2001 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: PDP-11/34 on eBay... NOT... NOT Message-ID: <200105181520.LAA19980@world.std.com> gee, without CPU cards, it can hardly be *called* an 11/34... just a BA11 box which just so happens to have an 11/34 programmers console attached... (maybe it even has the correct backplane, but who knows) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From THETechnoid at home.com Fri May 18 11:01:53 2001 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: I *need* a Rack In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010518160438.QXFV21661.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@Benchbox> Computer Parts Barn of Asheville Nc has tons of racks for sale and is willing to ship. Call 828-274-2963 and order one. The proprietor would be glad to be rid of one as a rack versus as scrap. Give him a holler. CPB is on the East Coast and within driving distance for you. BTW, if you should be in the area then we should get together. My contact information is below. Regards, Jeff -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From cmurillo at manizales.autonoma.edu.co Fri May 18 11:09:51 2001 From: cmurillo at manizales.autonoma.edu.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: HP 300 References: <3.0.2.32.20010518080836.00f29738@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <3B05494F.9FF0CC09@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> "Iggy Drougge" wrote: -snip- > they let me have it > for 50 crowns. My pleasure. You were lucky; I'm envious. I'd like to have more of these. > Once I had bought it, though, I though that > 9000/300 was a suspiciously low number. Wasn't that some kind of 68010 based > machine? And why would such a machine have two Ethernet NICs? It probably found a second life as a router. Good for the guy who realized that the machine was still useful. > It really semed > like a waste, but on the underground ride how, I pulled out the big board with > all the ports, which seemed notably shinier and newer than the NIC above, and > found that it had a 68040. I thus deducted that it must be a 9000/380. Has > this machine been upgraded, or did HP simply not bother to identify their > machines any closer than the series (in this case 9000/300)? That's indeed the case. All hp300 systems were pretty modular, although there were some, such as the 340, that were more closed. > In any case, it came without keyboard, and I read that in order to switch it > over to serial terminal mode, one would have to perform a certain manoeuvre > via the keyboard. Bloody well thought out, HP! Is there no way to use a serial > terminal without any HIL keyboard involved? I was forced to leave my 380's monitor behind (darn hp98754a weighed about 100 pounds!) when I moved. I haven't yet gotten down to setting up the 380 in its new home, and I will have to reconfigure it to use a serial console. But I do have some HP-HIL keyboards. > The machine starts up and beeps a little. It's got not drives installed, but > there's a 50-pin "Centronics" connector marked SCSI/FS-HPIB. What is FS-HPIB? > Doesn't sound like anything I'd like to feed into my SCSI devices. The connectors in mine are marked (left to right, top to bottom) 1) BNC for LAN 2) AUI 3) parallel port (pc style) 4) HP-HIL 5) 9 pin PC style RS-232 6) SCSI/HS HP-IB (50 conductor Centronics) 7) 1/8" spkr 8) HP-IB The board is a 98574-66510 Rev C and the ROM is labeled 1818-5062 2/22/91. The cpu is a 25MHz RC 68040. Close to the SCSI header connector in the board there is an unconnected 34 pin header. Maybe that's the HS-HPIB. Indeed, HS-HPIB stands for a faster version of HPIB that was intended for mass storage only; later 300 systems such as the 370 had "human interface boards" (i.e., I/O boards) with HS-HPIB in an attached cable, plus the other usual ports and interconnects. I use the SCSI and the standard HPIB connectors in mine without problems and I am able to boot netBSD off an ST410800N on the SCSI chain or HPUX 9.1 off three 330MB HPIB drives contained in a 7963B behemoth of an enclosure; these I plug in the standard HPIB connector. I have 64MB in it. For a while, I used it as a pretty decent web server. When I get it back up that's what I am going to use it for. I've put pictures of some of the stuff above at http://jimulco.autonoma.edu.co/~carlos/hp/ No hp380 pics yet, though. Later. carlos. -- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez email: carlos_murillo@ieee.org Universidad Autonoma de Manizales, Manizales, Colombia and 428 Phillips Hall, Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853, USA From LFessen106 at aol.com Fri May 18 11:35:25 2001 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: HP 300 Message-ID: <38.16597ac5.2836a94d@aol.com> In a message dated 5/18/01 12:18:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cmurillo@manizales.autonoma.edu.co writes: > "Iggy Drougge" wrote: > -snip- > > they let me have it > > for 50 crowns. My pleasure. > > You were lucky; I'm envious. I'd like to have more of these. > Heck, I'd like to have ONE! -Linc Fessenden In The Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... Calculating in binary code is as easy as 01,10,11. From gregorym at cadvision.com Fri May 18 11:41:47 2001 From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: Books available References: <38.16597ac5.2836a94d@aol.com> Message-ID: <009701c0dfb9$6e53bfa0$0200a8c0@marvin> Hi! All of the books have been spoken for, from various corners of the globe. Thanks for all the interest. I'll have to keep a closer watch in the used bookstores. Interestingly, the most requested books were the 6809-related ones. Cheers, Mark Gregory >Mark Gregory wrote: > > I have some vintage books that are surplus to requirements, and are free* > to any list member who wants to pay shipping. They are: From bakcc at bigoakhill.com Fri May 18 12:23:14 2001 From: bakcc at bigoakhill.com (bakcc@bigoakhill.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: My IBM 1130 Message-ID: <200105181730.f4IHUi111645@mnmai05.mn.mediaone.net> I've put some new info about the 1130 on the website, like sizes (big) and weights (heavy). Also, I'm accepting offers on it until June 15th. We'll see what happens... (www.bigoakhill.com, click on ForSale). -Bruce Keller P.S. I'll be off-web most of next week, so I won't be able to respond to emails until Friday. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri May 18 12:34:57 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: "Hans Franke" "Re: Exidy Sorcerer" (May 18, 11:30) References: <3B03B879.23787.482C21A@localhost> from "Hans Franke" at May 17 1 11:39:37 am <3B0507E4.32143.9A0FC50@localhost> Message-ID: <10105181834.ZM27710@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 18, 11:30, Hans Franke wrote: > AFAIR you also have to use either 'adaptor plugs - or fit a new pwower > cable, since the Sorcerer had a fixed one. And there is nothing more > stupid in the world of power transmission than these plugs ... The power cable is fixed, but the plug on the end (that goes into the wal socket) was not a mouilded plug; it was a rewirable one, so it's very easy to remove and fit an appropriate type without mangling the cable. Not usaully a problem for me anyway, as it happens I have some Schuko sockets on my bench as well as lots of British 13A sockets. > Unless the PS is already switchable and there is a Kaltgeraetestecker > (no idea how these inlet connectors are called in english, where the > power cord is detatchable) The three-pin type I think you mean we just call an IEC inlet or IEC socket. The ones that have the notch we call "hot-condition" IEC plugs/sockets (like the ones you get on a kettle). > I always keep the original condition - for > the short time I play around with a specific unit (seldom more than a > few weeks) a stepdown transformer is a fine solution. Sensible enough, but in this case there is provision inside the Sorcerer to rewire the transformer primaries, and it's documented in the manuals. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri May 18 13:01:40 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: 74xx orgin - Update In-Reply-To: <003b01c0dda2$0ca42ba0$ab789a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3B057FA4.11776.112B85E@localhost> > >Maybe I should specify my question ... I need to know > >at what date these chips where at first available - > >not just the era. A good single IC to use could be the > >74181 ALU. > Around 71. Then the H, S, LS, ALS and F parts. > >> I have a 74 TTL design guide at home, so I'll check it too. > >The oldest datasheet I could find says Dec 1972 for the 74S181 > Sounds close to right. The S however was later the basic 74181 > was first. Infact the July 1972 issue of Ham Radio Has a supplier > selling the 74181 for $4.50!! Well, that's _pretty_ cheap ... even considering the higher monetary value back than. Now, new serches found a 1968 Siemens data book with cross reference from Siemens numbers to TI numbers (FLH 101 -> 7400 The system was quite logical and described the basic function) for low scale ICs (no '181 in this book), and another data book from 1970 with a reference to the '181 - so if Siemens offers already a cross reference, the chip must be around at least some time... Ciao Hans -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri May 18 13:15:12 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: Where to buy Gorilla Banana printers? In-Reply-To: <339.538T2300T985761optimus@canit.se> from Iggy Drougge at "May 18, 1 01:38:46 am" Message-ID: <200105181815.LAA10320@stockholm.ptloma.edu> [Iggy] > >Hi Doug, > > Hi, Dorothy. My name is not Doug. Please shut up. Got up on the wrong side of the power switch again this morning? -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Born free. Taxed to death. ------------------------------------------------- From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri May 18 13:17:49 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: tape drives In-Reply-To: from Jeff Hellige at "May 18, 1 05:34:55 am" Message-ID: <200105181817.LAA10338@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > >The ADAM used a digital tape format. > > Was there ever a program released that allowed you to format > your own tapes on the ADAM? I've never seen mention of one. I've never seen one either. I guess Coleco took that secret with them to the great liquidation auction in the sky. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Arguments with furniture are rarely productive. -- Kehlog Albran ----------- From optimus at canit.se Fri May 18 14:05:35 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: HP 300 In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010517222803.007be100@yellow.ucdavis.edu> Message-ID: <1601.538T1750T12055139optimus@canit.se> Edwin P. Groot skrev: > Hi Iggy, > I don't think it was upgraded. I have the 310, the lowest in the >series - the one with the 68010 CPU. My box also says "HP 9000 300", not >"310". There is hardware information at: >http://www.blobulent.com/hp300/FAQ/rossspon/hp300faq.htm I've wgetted (wgot?) that FAQ already, very useful. =) > Just today I completed this system by finding an HP-IB cable in the >trash. I started with the box, which has video, serial and HP-IB. Then I >found an HP-IB drive unit. Then came a monitor that had the requisite BNC >connectors, and then some BNC cabling. The ROM on bootup reports its >version, the CPU, and the addresses of interfaces. Have not tried the >drive yet. Hmm, perhaps I should have picked up some of those free HP-IB cables now that I think of it. I have a friend who's got a double HP brand 3,5" drive (those drives are really vintage!) with what seems like a HPIB interface. Or is that GPIB? I'm blissfully ignorant regarding those systems. As for BNC monitors, I haven't got any, but I came up with a solution which might work: I've got several VGA->BNC cables, and with a gender changer, it should plug into the male end of a VGA monitor. =) At least as long as it supports SOG (sync on green)... So tell me, how does a 310 feel? I was quite relieved to find that I had a 380, but I suppose a 310 could be a quaint experience as well. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Remember: - On the Amiga, you can make a way. - On Linux, there is a way, you just don't know it. - On Windows, there is no way and you know it. Aaron Digulla From optimus at canit.se Fri May 18 14:19:24 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: HP 300 In-Reply-To: <20010518095918.A4967@mail.er-grp.com> Message-ID: <1895.538T1200T12194741optimus@canit.se> jarkko.teppo skrev: >On Thu, May 17, 2001 at 12:49:25AM +0100, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> found that it had a 68040. I thus deducted that it must be a 9000/380. Has >> this machine been upgraded, or did HP simply not bother to identify their >> machines any closer than the series (in this case 9000/300)? >If you look how easily you can pull out the board then it actually makes >sense. Just provide a box with DIO-II/I slots and basically you can build >anything from 310 to 380 inside. If the main board looks like this: >http://www.tec.puv.fi/~s99137/kuvat/380takaa2.jpg >http://www.tec.puv.fi/~s99137/kuvat/380takaa.jpg >Then you have a 380. The machine in those crummy pictures has a DIO-I >expansion cab. So does mine, if that's the card with the ugly card-edge connector into which the additional LANCE board is plugged. >> In any case, it came without keyboard, and I read that in order to switch >> it over to serial terminal mode, one would have to perform a certain >> manoeuvre via the keyboard. Bloody well thought out, HP! Is there no way to >> use a serial terminal without any HIL keyboard involved? >There might be a way. Start out by removing the framebuffer and then >try some serial magic. Ah, so it's the same route as with the DECstation. Great. >> The machine starts up and beeps a little. It's got not drives installed, >> but there's a 50-pin "Centronics" connector marked SCSI/FS-HPIB. What is >> FS-HPIB? Doesn't sound like anything I'd like to feed into my SCSI devices. >The machine can do Fast HP-IB or SCSI from the mainboard. The SCSI connector >goes directly to the main board via a flat cable but the FS-HPIB has some >electronics just behind the connector. I'd guess you have the SCSI-version. It's plugged straight in. Good for me. Now, should I just run NetBSD or is HPUX any more sufferable on the 380 than on the 832? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Fri May 18 08:43:02 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: Magnetic Drum Storage WAS Re: Using audio cassette In-Reply-To: <3B045BA6.B66BA83D@home.com> Message-ID: <510.538T100T8834245optimus@canit.se> Doug Coward skrev: > But, when it comes to adding mass storage to a digital >computer system, IMHO I can't think of anything faster, >easier, or more reliable than the old Commodore 1541. I can think of several systems faster than the 1541. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. A Spanish MSX Group "Matra" visited to this Fair. I lent Spanish stand to them. They showed and did Promotion play of SEX BOMB BUNNY. And this Game has tema song of Majingar-Z! Why they know Japanese TV animation? K. Ikeda, MSX-Print From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri May 18 13:59:06 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: Magnetic Drum Storage WAS Re: Using audio cassette In-Reply-To: <510.538T100T8834245optimus@canit.se> from Iggy Drougge at "May 18, 1 02:43:02 pm" Message-ID: <200105181859.LAA10274@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > But, when it comes to adding mass storage to a digital > >computer system, IMHO I can't think of anything faster, > >easier, or more reliable than the old Commodore 1541. > > I can think of several systems faster than the 1541. Yes, the 1541 is definitely slower than January molasses. However, they *are* nice and reliable, and they hook right up. And any decent fastload cartridge will take care of the speed issues. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Born free. Taxed to death. ------------------------------------------------- From dittman at dittman.net Fri May 18 14:06:07 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: PDP-11/53 Message-ID: <200105181906.f4IJ67s08331@narnia.int.dittman.net> I've been gifted with a PDP-11/53 (or 53+) CPU module. The CPU is from a DECserver 550, and I have the box as well, so I'll be able to build up my PDP-11 there rather than use my BA23 from my MVII. From what I've been able to determine the CPU modules in the DECserver 550 has different ROMs, so I'll need to replace them to make a bootable system. I'll be able to use the Ethernet card in the DECserver 550 (DELQA), and I'll move over my RQDX3 and RD54 drives from the MVII. Since the CPU has 1.5M of RAM I won't need any extra memory (and from reading the PDP-11 history, adding memory off-board adds a real performance hit. So, does any here have a source for bootable ROMs for this CPU? -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Fri May 18 14:23:59 2001 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: destinking the computers Message-ID: Another pointer to a web page about chemicals to remove grease and nicotine for many surfaces. http://www.energy2green.com/uses4.html Seems to me that these products will clean computer stuff as well as car parts. http://www.idealchemicalproducts.com/AutoDetail-1.html I especially like the part that lets you pick the fragrance you prefer. I think Pina Colada or Bubble gum would be perfect for a Mac. :) That's the next wave in computing, different fragrances to match the color of you computer. I'm really partial to ozone when I'm around big iron. Deodorants Spray deodorants for use in auto detail shops Available in Bag-N-Box Long lasting fragrances Super concentrated Water soluble Contains no colorants USES: our deodorants are super concentrated and water soluble. Each product should be diluted with water prior to use and can be used to reduce malodors in a variety of applications including automobiles, campers, tractor cabs and sleeper areas, automobile trunks, bathrooms and shower areas, hotels and motels, nursing homes, day care centers, restaurant garbage areas and any musty damp areas. Each of our deodorants dilutes easily with water and will not harm any surface not harmed by water. Our deodorants are non staining, long lasting and economical to use. USE DIRECTIONS: mix 4 to 8 ounces of our concentrate with 1 gallon of water. Fill either a trigger spray bottle or pump up sprayer with dilute solution and spray area to be treated. Repeat if necessary. Concentrates can also be used in the evaporative air flow type room deodorizers. Simply pour concentrate into the holding container or tank and close door. All the different fragrances that we offer are listed below with product number for ordering * PEACHIE (Fruit) 4-248 * HALT (Cherry) 4-239 * LEMON 4-372 * STRAWBERRY 4-444 * ORANGE 4-241 * BABY FACE (Baby Powder) 4-312 * LIME 4-445 * VANILLA 4-242 * WATERMELON 4-255 * PINEY 4-373 * PARADISE (Floral) 4-912 * PINA COLADA (Coconut) 4-246 * RASPBERRY 4-446 * BUBBLE GUM 4-243 Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu From fdebros at bellatlantic.net Fri May 18 15:24:55 2001 From: fdebros at bellatlantic.net (Fred deBros) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: mini connectors that look like centronics but are much smaller....where? References: <510.538T100T8834245optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <000801c0dfd8$9a1aee00$0100a8c0@jack> I need the source for small "centronics like" 32(?) pin connectors used in laptop hdd caddies that accept a EIDE mini hdd on one side (this one for a t4800 laptop). Fred From optimus at canit.se Fri May 18 15:45:27 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: Where to buy Gorilla Banana printers? In-Reply-To: <200105181815.LAA10320@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <480.538T1350T13055375optimus@canit.se> Cameron Kaiser skrev: >[Iggy] >> >Hi Doug, >> >> Hi, Dorothy. My name is not Doug. Please shut up. >Got up on the wrong side of the power switch again this morning? I'm allergic to repitition. If I ever encounter something more than once, it must go. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. If you consistently take an antagonistic approach, however, people are going to start thinking you're from New York. :-) --Larry Wall to Dan Bernstein in <10187@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV> From mac at Wireless.Com Fri May 18 15:50:20 2001 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: PDP-11/34 on eBay... NOT... NOT In-Reply-To: <990187906.3b051182d5689@email.ou.edu> Message-ID: Yes, I told him. This looks like a case where his expectations seem to be outrunning reality; I'd be amazed if he achieves even his (as-yet unknown) reserve. Incidentally, the guy never did reply to my email; he just changed the bullet point as you mention. -Mike On Fri, 18 May 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 07:11:46 -0500 (CDT) > From: Jeffrey S. Sharp > Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > To: ClassicCmp Mailing List > Subject: PDP-11/34 on eBay... NOT... NOT > > It seems that someone told the seller his PDP-11/34 didn't have CPU > cards. The seller ended the auction and relisted, this time with a > bullet point saying "Sorry there are no CPU cards". > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@ou.edu > From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 18 15:41:05 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: PDP-11/53 In-Reply-To: <200105181906.f4IJ67s08331@narnia.int.dittman.net> from "Eric Dittman" at May 18, 2001 02:06:07 PM Message-ID: <200105182041.NAA21136@shell1.aracnet.com> > I've been gifted with a PDP-11/53 (or 53+) CPU module. > The CPU is from a DECserver 550, and I have the box as > So, does any here have a source for bootable ROMs > for this CPU? I just heard from someone a few minutes ago, that if you've got a 3rd party disk controller that you can boot the system off you should be able to simply remove the ROM's. Zane From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri May 18 15:44:21 2001 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: Dayton Hamvention report In-Reply-To: <200105181906.f4IJ67s08331@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <20010518204421.59652.qmail@web9503.mail.yahoo.com> For all of you who have been able to enjoy it, the word is... Wet. I managed to pick up a Thinkpad 360C with a cracked hinge for $20 and a docking station for it for $5 (locked with no key, but it took 5 minutes to disassemble the lock via the ISA slot). Other notables include a free Silent 700 (from the same guy who gave me that pile of Atari 800 stuff a few weeks ago) and a copy of "The Lost Treasures of Infocom" on floppy (with maps and books) for $5. Dayton is more fun when it's dry, but it's even fun on a day like today. It's just indoor fun. -ethan ===== Visit "The Seventh Continent" http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From donm at cts.com Fri May 18 16:05:59 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: tape drives In-Reply-To: <200105181817.LAA10338@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 May 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > >The ADAM used a digital tape format. > > > > Was there ever a program released that allowed you to format > > your own tapes on the ADAM? I've never seen mention of one. > > I've never seen one either. I guess Coleco took that secret with them to the > great liquidation auction in the sky. > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- Arguments with furniture are rarely productive. -- Kehlog Albran ----------- There does exist a program to create Adam diskettes on a PC, however. - don From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri May 18 16:12:34 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: PDP-11/53 In-Reply-To: Eric Dittman "PDP-11/53" (May 18, 14:06) References: <200105181906.f4IJ67s08331@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <10105182212.ZM27838@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 18, 14:06, Eric Dittman wrote: > So, does any here have a source for bootable ROMs > for this CPU? The standard (as far as I know -- the ones I have came from a microPDP-11/53 in a BA23 case) boot ROMs are 23-261E5 and 23-263E5. I seem to have accidentally left binary images in my DECROMs directory at www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/ :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri May 18 16:21:01 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: PDP-11/53 In-Reply-To: healyzh@aracnet.com "Re: PDP-11/53" (May 18, 13:41) References: <200105182041.NAA21136@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <10105182221.ZM27854@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 18, 13:41, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > On May 18, 14:06, Eric Dittman wrote: > > I've been gifted with a PDP-11/53 (or 53+) CPU module. > I just heard from someone a few minutes ago, that if you've got a 3rd party > disk controller that you can boot the system off you should be able to > simply remove the ROM's. Well, only if they fit, physically and electrically. Most 3rd-party boot ROMs I've seen (eg Dilog, Emulex, Plessey, GR, etc) wouldn't be the right type for the board. The code might work; I suspect the ROMs from an 11/73 or 11/83 might work. I never used an 11/53 much, but from what I remember it's pretty much like other 11/73+ or 11/83 boards, just with memory on it as well as SLUs and bootstrap etc. I've no doubt someone else (Megan? Allison? others?) can expand on the differences. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 18 16:20:28 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: PDP-11/53 In-Reply-To: Re: PDP-11/53 (Pete Turnbull) References: <200105181906.f4IJ67s08331@narnia.int.dittman.net> <10105182212.ZM27838@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <15109.37404.555476.955500@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 18, Pete Turnbull wrote: > The standard (as far as I know -- the ones I have came from a > microPDP-11/53 in a BA23 case) boot ROMs are 23-261E5 and 23-263E5. I seem > to have accidentally left binary images in my DECROMs directory at > www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/ :-) Eric, do you have the facilities to burn these EPROMs? If not, I can help you. Feel free to contact me. -Dave McGuire From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri May 18 16:32:34 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: PDP-11/34 on eBay... NOT... NOT In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Incidentally, the guy never did reply to my email; he just changed >the bullet point >as you mention. There was another seller that had a listing for what he thought was a Twiggy diskette for the Lisa 1. The photograph showed a Verbatim Twiggy sleeve but a standard 5-1/4" diskette. I sent him an email pointing out his error and he was quite thankful for the info. He removed the auction and sent me the sleeve! Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 18 16:32:48 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: PDP-11/53 In-Reply-To: Re: PDP-11/53 (Pete Turnbull) References: <200105182041.NAA21136@shell1.aracnet.com> <10105182221.ZM27854@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <15109.38144.804688.487821@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 18, Pete Turnbull wrote: > or 11/83 might work. I never used an 11/53 much, but from what I remember > it's pretty much like other 11/73+ or 11/83 boards, just with memory on it > as well as SLUs and bootstrap etc. I've no doubt someone else (Megan? > Allison? others?) can expand on the differences. I believe the memory on the 11/53 board can be accessed much faster than memory on the qbus, as well. -Dave McGuire From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri May 18 16:35:08 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: tape drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >There does exist a program to create Adam diskettes on a PC, however. That'd be cool. One of these days maybe I'll actually find one of the ADAM 160k floppy drives. I'm amazed that nobody has ever written a format utility for the tape drive though, considering some of the other projects people have undertaken for the machine. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From dittman at dittman.net Fri May 18 17:14:19 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: PDP-11/53 In-Reply-To: <15109.37404.555476.955500@phaduka.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at May 18, 2001 05:20:28 PM Message-ID: <200105182214.f4IMEJ709088@narnia.int.dittman.net> > On May 18, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > The standard (as far as I know -- the ones I have came from a > > microPDP-11/53 in a BA23 case) boot ROMs are 23-261E5 and 23-263E5. I seem > > to have accidentally left binary images in my DECROMs directory at > > www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/ :-) > > Eric, do you have the facilities to burn these EPROMs? If not, > I can help you. Feel free to contact me. Yes, I can burn most types of EPROMs, including the ones on this board. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From dittman at dittman.net Fri May 18 17:15:36 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: PDP-11/53 In-Reply-To: <10105182212.ZM27838@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at May 18, 2001 09:12:34 PM Message-ID: <200105182215.f4IMFaK09106@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > So, does any here have a source for bootable ROMs > > for this CPU? > > The standard (as far as I know -- the ones I have came from a > microPDP-11/53 in a BA23 case) boot ROMs are 23-261E5 and 23-263E5. I seem > to have accidentally left binary images in my DECROMs directory at > www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/ :-) Thanks. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri May 18 17:19:44 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: Exidy Sorcerer: Next problem In-Reply-To: "Louis Schulman" "Exidy Sorcerer: Next problem" (May 17, 22:10) References: <200105180210.WAA21781@hall.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <10105182319.ZM27888@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 17, 22:10, Louis Schulman wrote: > OK, the power supply works! I have power on the motherboard. Now on > to the next problem. > > When attached to a composite monitor, I get video, but it is a > rolling/pulsing screen. Yes, I have the sync set to 60 Hz. I've seen that happen on Mark 1's where the sync isn't well matched to the monitor's needs and it couldn't lock. That seemd to happen with 50Hz versions and certain monitors, due to the timing of the sync pulse relative to the start of frame. Since this is a Mark 2 and I assume you're using it at 60Hz, I doubt that's the problem. Does switching between the 50Hz and 60Hz settings make a difference? If so, there's probably something wrong with the timing. Looking at the schematic, VSYNC is generated by the counters and multiplexers at 13A, 19B, 20B and 21B, and the 74LS74 flipflops at 18A and 18B. The 50Hz/60Hz switch controls the multiplexers at 13A and 19B, and they choose the reload values for the counters at 20B and 21B. You should see a high multiple (I'm too lazy to work out the frequency :-)) of 60Hz at 21B pin 15 and a lower multiple at 20B-15. That in turn feeds the LS74 at 18B, via the gate at 16A, and the VSYNC signal comes out of 18B-5. If you have a scope, that will tell you if the signal looks about right, if not, but you have a logic probe, at least you can look for 60Hz pulses. If it's extreme, perhaps the vsync isn't getting to the video socket. It's mixed by ORing it [1] with the HSYNC in the LS32 at 9B (pin 9 is VSYNC, 10 is HSYNC, 11 is composite). The composite sync is buffered by by an LS04 at 10H (in pin 10, out pin 11) and then via R59 is mixed with the video data (via R58) to the base of the video transistor. [1] which is what causes the problem for some 50HZ monitors; the HSYNC is effectively lost during the VSYNC pulse, which is very close to the first used scan line, so the top few lines of the screen tend to tear. > So, can you supply a troubleshooting procedure to find where the > problem lies? Again, keep in mind that this is a Sorcerer II (with > apparently 32K in Rows 2 and 3, is this the proper configuration)? Two rows is quite normal -- if the ICs are 4116 or equivalent you have 32K; if they're 4104 or equivalent you have 8K. I think you mean rows B and C (look for the numbers at the edge of the board). Physical row C is actually "row 1" or bank 1 as far as the RAM decode is concerned, and row B is bank 2. Row A is bank 3. The banks have to be filled in order 1,2,3 (rows C,B,A). So, yes, your setup is normal. If you can read the screen display, BASIC will tell you how much RAM is free after it initialises. If you don't have BASIC, the monitor ROM will tell you the address of the top of RAM after it initialises. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri May 18 17:25:17 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: PDP-11/53 In-Reply-To: Dave McGuire "Re: PDP-11/53" (May 18, 17:32) References: <200105182041.NAA21136@shell1.aracnet.com> <10105182221.ZM27854@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <15109.38144.804688.487821@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <10105182325.ZM27912@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 18, 17:32, Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 18, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > or 11/83 might work. I never used an 11/53 much, but from what I remember > > it's pretty much like other 11/73+ or 11/83 boards, just with memory on it > > as well as SLUs and bootstrap etc. I've no doubt someone else (Megan? > > Allison? others?) can expand on the differences. > > I believe the memory on the 11/53 board can be accessed much faster > than memory on the qbus, as well. Yes, I believe so. Anyone know *how much* faster? I don't think it was all that much faster than PMI memory. And I think the /53 *doesn't* work with PMI, which the /73 and /83 do (only the /83 was supported to use it, though). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Fri May 18 17:29:06 2001 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: Slicing open the top of a 48T02 Sun Sparc chip to replace bat tery is that thing hollow or filled with epoxy? Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0007A280@BUSH02> > Has anybody tried one of the DALLAS "smart socket" products with this thingie? Unfortunately the 48T02 is a TOD clock and calendar as well as NVRAM, so there's no suitable SmartSocket to replace it. The registers have to be at particular places and use a particular protocol too. Just got the data sheet and the Dallas DS1642 is a direct form, fit and function replacement for the MK48T02(B). It says so right at the start of the sheet. Cheers, Lee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The information contained in this email may contain information which is confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri May 18 17:41:37 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: PDP-11/53 In-Reply-To: Eric Dittman "Re: PDP-11/53" (May 18, 17:14) References: <200105182214.f4IMEJ709088@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <10105182341.ZM27939@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 18, 17:14, Eric Dittman wrote: > > On May 18, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > The standard (as far as I know -- the ones I have came from a > > > microPDP-11/53 in a BA23 case) boot ROMs are 23-261E5 and 23-263E5. I seem > > > to have accidentally left binary images in my DECROMs directory at > > > www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/ :-) > > > > Eric, do you have the facilities to burn these EPROMs? If not, > > I can help you. Feel free to contact me. > > Yes, I can burn most types of EPROMs, including > the ones on this board. Are they ordinary 27128s or something different? I've seen a lot of DEC EPROMs which had fewer pins than "standard" -- though AFAIR only 8KB ones. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 18 12:48:42 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: <3B0507E4.32143.9A0FC50@localhost> from "Hans Franke" at May 18, 1 11:30:44 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1328 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010518/0ba260a1/attachment.ksh From ken at seefried.com Fri May 18 17:42:26 2001 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: VME532, GNX Unix and want for a Maxtor XT-4175E In-Reply-To: <200105181833.NAA73002@opal.tseinc.com> References: <200105181833.NAA73002@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <20010518224226.25807.qmail@mail.seefried.com> I need to find a working Maxtor XT-4175E disk drive. I've had the wonderful fortune to have picked up a Heurikon VME532 (NS32532 based) development system. This is probably the fastest single-processor 32532 system produced (Encore MultiMax was of course faster, with more processors). The bonus is that this system is running GNX 3.1 with the National Semiconductor cc compiler, along with a bunch of other development tools (and source code for odd ns32k bits). Unfortunately, I don't have the distribution media, so a disk crash would be fatal, wiping out an almost unique machine. GNX is running on a Maxtor XT-4175E 175MB ESDI drive, and if I could find another one, I should be able to 'dd' a bootable backup. Does anyone on the list have one of these drives that they'd be willing to part with, or knows where I can buy one, in order for me to have a working backup of this system? P.S. - Of course, if someone has GNX distribution media, I'd love to hear from you! P.P.S. - If anyone has any Heurikon VME532 bits, or GNX knowledge, I'd love to hear from you as well. P.P.P.S. - How long has it been since I ran a Unix (a 32-bit Unix, no less) that could fit, with development system, et. al., on a 175MB drive with room to spare (113MB used). Ken Seefried, CISSP From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 18 18:06:17 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: PDP-11/53 In-Reply-To: <10105182221.ZM27854@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at May 18, 2001 09:21:01 PM Message-ID: <200105182306.QAA28405@shell1.aracnet.com> > > I just heard from someone a few minutes ago, that if you've got a 3rd > party > > disk controller that you can boot the system off you should be able to > > simply remove the ROM's. > > Well, only if they fit, physically and electrically. Most 3rd-party boot > ROMs I've seen (eg Dilog, Emulex, Plessey, GR, etc) wouldn't be the right > type for the board. The code might work; I suspect the ROMs from an 11/73 > or 11/83 might work. I never used an 11/53 much, but from what I remember > it's pretty much like other 11/73+ or 11/83 boards, just with memory on it > as well as SLUs and bootstrap etc. I've no doubt someone else (Megan? > Allison? others?) can expand on the differences. Actually I was talking about using the 3rd party controller to boot the system after you remove the ROMs from the /53. I'm not talking about putting the ROMs from the 3rd party disk controller into the sockets on the /53, which obviously wouldn't work so well. Zane From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 18 18:14:57 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: PDP-11/53 In-Reply-To: Re: PDP-11/53 (Eric Dittman) References: <15109.37404.555476.955500@phaduka.neurotica.com> <200105182214.f4IMEJ709088@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <15109.44273.614547.454104@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 18, Eric Dittman wrote: > > Eric, do you have the facilities to burn these EPROMs? If not, > > I can help you. Feel free to contact me. > > Yes, I can burn most types of EPROMs, including > the ones on this board. Good deal. -Dave From mranalog at home.com Fri May 18 18:20:37 2001 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: 'cross computer movers referrals Message-ID: <3B05AE45.A0EE7C28@home.com> "Bruce Ray" said > moving companies moving RETMA-racked equipment. Are these really pre-1957 racks or is that a phrase of habit? Regards, --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ========================================= From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 18 18:23:38 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: PDP-11/53 Switch settings In-Reply-To: <10105182341.ZM27939@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at May 18, 2001 10:41:37 PM Message-ID: <200105182323.QAA29228@shell1.aracnet.com> Since the PDP-11/53 seems to be the topic of the day, does anyone have the switch settings for the CPU board, specifically for a board that came out of a DECserver 550? Zane From allain at panix.com Fri May 18 18:26:20 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: Jeopardy References: <200105181833.NAA73002@opal.tseinc.com> <20010518224226.25807.qmail@mail.seefried.com> Message-ID: <09bc01c0dff1$f23d7440$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Jeopardy just had a switch on its standard category of "Potent Potables" where it changed to "Potent Portables". They had a clue where they named the Osborne 1 and described it in in great detail (Weight & Size). The response was "What is a briefcase?" John A. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri May 18 18:28:01 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: PDP-11/53 In-Reply-To: healyzh@aracnet.com "Re: PDP-11/53" (May 18, 16:06) References: <200105182306.QAA28405@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <10105190028.ZM27988@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 18, 16:06, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > Actually I was talking about using the 3rd party controller to boot the > system after you remove the ROMs from the /53. I'm not talking about > putting the ROMs from the 3rd party disk controller into the sockets on the > /53, which obviously wouldn't work so well. I wondered about that -- but it won't necessarily initialise everything correctly. Emulex boot ROMs won't always set up all the registers in a J11, or initialise large amounts of parity or ECC RAM, for example. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri May 18 18:49:04 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:36 2005 Subject: CMD drops Commodore 8-bit support Message-ID: <200105182349.QAA10054@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Creative Micro Designs, the last "big name" in Commodore hardware development, is dropping Commodore 8-bit support as of 1 June. :-/ http://www.cmdweb.com/ -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- The superfluous is very necessary. -- Voltaire ----------------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 18 12:32:59 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: tape drives In-Reply-To: <200105172254.QAA20364@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at May 17, 1 04:54:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 981 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010518/b8c9e2c8/attachment.ksh From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri May 18 19:27:17 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: tape drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >But if you don't have automatic fast forward (and some way to judge the >approximate postiion of the tape automatically), then finding a >particular file is consists of rewinding the tape to the start and then >reading the tape (at normal speed) until you find the file you want. >Which, using one side of a C90 cassette, could take 45 minutes. This is >going to get boring fast. Especially with systems such as the ZX-81. I used the audio cassette on my stereo for storage and it was usually a hit or miss proposition when dealing with it. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From dittman at dittman.net Fri May 18 20:04:30 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: P/OS Installation Problem Message-ID: <200105190104.f4J14UL09832@narnia.int.dittman.net> When I try to install PRODCL from the DECUS distribution I get the error: An RMS error occurred at point 0. The sts,stv values are -384. , 0. Does anyone know what this error is, and what the problem is with the installation? -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri May 18 20:50:43 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: ProMotion and ProTuner cards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010518213556.00a00040@mailhost.intellistar.net> Is anyone familar with these cards? Does anyone have docs for them? I picked up some old 486 computers that have these cards in them. Both of the cards are made by IEV International. I've searched the net and found them mentioned but no real information. I've gotten the ProTuner card to work somewhat. It's TV tuner card and it has a VHF RF input and outputs audio and composite video through two RCA sockets. So far I haven't had any luck with the ProMotion card. I can bring up a screen that looks like it should display video on but I can't get anything to display on it. The ProMotion card is a full length card that is jumperd to the feature connector on the VGA display card. On the back, the ProMotion card has a RCA socket marked video, a S-video connector and a DB-9F socket and what looks like a VGA port. I connected a video source to the RCA video port and tried it but nothing appears in the displayed window. I can plug a VGA monitor into the VGA(?) port and it looks like it has video but the monitor can't sync on it. Does anyone know what exactly this port and the DB-9 port are for? Joe From nellielide at starpower.net Fri May 18 21:26:27 2001 From: nellielide at starpower.net (nellielide) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: HP 1631D logic analyzer help Message-ID: <000701c0e00b$223f26c0$10152c42@nqezxeod> Anyone know where I can get a manual and logic probes for an HP1631D logic analyzer ? thanks, dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010518/6256a49f/attachment.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 18 21:41:09 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: VIRUS: Re: HP 1631D logic analyzer help In-Reply-To: <000701c0e00b$223f26c0$10152c42@nqezxeod> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 May 2001, nellielide wrote: > Anyone know where I can get a manual and logic probes That message was infected with KAK. From support at star.co.uk Fri May 18 21:38:31 2001 From: support at star.co.uk (support@star.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: WARNING. You sent a potential virus or unauthorised code Message-ID: <20010519023831.14891.qmail@server-3.tower-17.messagelabs.com> The MessageLabs Virus Control Centre discovered a possible virus or unauthorised code (such as a joke program or trojan) in an email sent by you. Please read this whole email carefully. It explains what has happened to your email, which suspected virus has been caught, and what to do if you need help. ------------------------------------------------------------ Some details about the infected message ------------------------------------------------------------ To help identify the email: The message sender was owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org nellielide@starpower.net classiccmp@classiccmp.org (if this is not your email address, the message sender possibly belongs to a mailing list to which you both subscribe.) The message was titled 'Re: HP 1631D logic analyzer help' The message date was Fri, 18 May 2001 22:26:27 -0400 The message identifier was <000701c0e00b$223f26c0$10152c42@nqezxeod> The message recipients were Lee.Davison@merlincommunications.com To help identify the virus: Scanner 1 (F-Secure) reported the following: F-Secure Anti-Virus for i386-linux Release 4.08 build 2260 sign.def version 2001-05-17 fsmacro.def version 2001-05-16 sign2.def version 2001-05-17 669139_2MH_message.htm infection: JS/Kak.A@m 1 files scanned 1 infections found The message was diverted into the virus holding pen on mail server server-3.tower-17.messagelabs.com (id 669139_990239910) and will be held for 30 days before being destroyed. ------------------------------------------------------------ What should you do now? ------------------------------------------------------------ If you sent the email from a corporate network, you should first contact your local Helpdesk or System Administrator for advice. They will be able to help you disinfect your workstation. If you sent the email from a personal or home account, you will need to disinfect your computer yourself. To do this you will need an anti-virus program. We suggest using one of the leading industry anti-virus packages such as McAfee, F-Secure or Cybersoft, which cost £15-£30 per copy. ------------------------------------------------------------ Getting more help ------------------------------------------------------------ If you believe this message to be a false alarm or you require further assistance, you can email Star Internet Support at:- support@star.net.uk or contact Star Helpdesk by telephone on:- +44 (0) 1285 884433 Please quote the following Virus Pen ID when contacting Support. <<< mail server server-3.tower-17.messagelabs.com (id 669139_990239910) >>> If replying by email, please forward this entire email. _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp From claudew at videotron.ca Fri May 18 21:59:56 2001 From: claudew at videotron.ca (Claude.W) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow & LA50 and other finds... Message-ID: <00b301c0e00f$c8d66940$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> Well a good week for me. I found a "not to active anymore" collector who lived around here and traded a few duplicate extra systems and periphs I had... And I got: Full kit DEC Rainbow with DEC LA50 printer and all original binders, reference cards, stickers etc...I guess everything there except the original boxes... TRS80 model I with monitor in very good shape. TRS80 model 200 that looks like it was almost never used at all. I might not be keeping the DEC LA50 so trade offers welcome I guess...I have no idea of how interesting this LA50 printer is...or is not... I just have no space for printers... Claude http://computer_collector.tripod.com From claudew at videotron.ca Fri May 18 22:05:25 2001 From: claudew at videotron.ca (Claude.W) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: Looking for : SUN S-BUS ethernet card (s) -- would like to trade Message-ID: <00bb01c0e010$8cefd3c0$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> Hi I would need one or even better, two of these. See my for trade page. I have quite a bit of stuff... http://computer_collector.tripod.com/vintagecomputers/fortradeindex.html I have more. Ask. Thanks Claude http://computer_collector.tripod.com From mbg at world.std.com Fri May 18 23:12:27 2001 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: PDP-11/53 Message-ID: <200105190412.AAA00551@world.std.com> >Actually I was talking about using the 3rd party controller to boot the >system after you remove the ROMs from the /53. I'm not talking about >putting the ROMs from the 3rd party disk controller into the sockets on >the /53, which obviously wouldn't work so well. A perfect example would be the DSD-880 unit. The interface for it can be configured not to provide the boot code if the system has integral code for booting RL02 or RX02, but the interface can also be configured to provide boot code appropriate for either at the standard address. The only question is whether the KDJ11-D can get out of the way of such memory references. It obviously has to be configured such that the on-board ROM doesn't respond to any of the normal addresses for boot code (beginning at 17765000 and 17773000, if I remember correctly). I would have to check the manual to find out how to configure it to do so, if it is possible. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From edick at idcomm.com Fri May 18 23:38:52 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: Slicing open the top of a 48T02 Sun Sparc chip to replace battery is that thing hollow or filled with epoxy? References: <3B045639.752CD103@bellsouth.net> <001701c0df3a$a9013620$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <10105180843.ZM23882@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <002c01c0e01d$9b6c18c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Maybe the SmartSocket isn't what I wanted. Somewhere in the "pit" I've got a Dallas socket that has a 3-volt battery in the bottom. It's potted in place but provides 3 volts on pin 24, (maybe pin 28, but the upper left corner, anyway) in this case and does nothing but provide power to keep the content of the resident IC intact, and, maybe, gate the write signal off until the power is stabile. I do believe there's no continuity between the write pin on the resident IC and the corresponding socket pin, so something's going on. That sort of device might work, don't you think? Next time I'm at the Dallas web site I'll try to find the socket and let you know what the appropriate nomeclature is. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Turnbull" To: Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 1:43 AM Subject: Re: Slicing open the top of a 48T02 Sun Sparc chip to replace battery is that thing hollow or filled with epoxy? > On May 17, 19:34, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Has anybody tried one of the DALLAS "smart socket" products with this > thingie? > > Unfortunately the 48T02 is a TOD clock and calendar as well as NVRAM, so > there's no suitable SmartSocket to replace it. The registers have to be at > particular places and use a particular protocol too. > > > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri May 18 23:18:31 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: ProMotion and ProTuner cards In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010518213556.00a00040@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: Message-ID: > Is anyone familar with these cards? Does anyone have docs for >them? I picked up some old 486 computers that have these cards in them. >Both of the cards are made by IEV International. I've searched the net and Sounds a bit like some cards I have, PCmotion Pro by Optibase. I have no docs either, but the company Optibase is still around. From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat May 19 00:23:41 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow & LA50 and other finds... In-Reply-To: <00b301c0e00f$c8d66940$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010518222319.00a11220@mail.zipcon.net> need any rainbow software? I think i still have some stuff floating around :) At 10:59 PM 5/18/01 -0400, you wrote: >Well a good week for me. I found a "not to active anymore" collector who >lived around here and traded a few duplicate extra systems and periphs I >had... > >And I got: > >Full kit DEC Rainbow with DEC LA50 printer and all original binders, >reference cards, stickers etc...I guess everything there except the original >boxes... > >TRS80 model I with monitor in very good shape. > >TRS80 model 200 that looks like it was almost never used at all. > >I might not be keeping the DEC LA50 so trade offers welcome I guess...I have >no idea of how interesting this LA50 printer is...or is not... > >I just have no space for printers... > >Claude >http://computer_collector.tripod.com From jarkko.teppo at er-grp.com Sat May 19 06:15:28 2001 From: jarkko.teppo at er-grp.com (Jarkko Teppo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: HP 300 In-Reply-To: <1895.538T1200T12194741optimus@canit.se> References: <1895.538T1200T12194741optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <990270928.3b0655d088b8e@mail.er-grp.com> Quoting Iggy Drougge : > jarkko.teppo skrev: > >http://www.tec.puv.fi/~s99137/kuvat/380takaa2.jpg > >http://www.tec.puv.fi/~s99137/kuvat/380takaa.jpg > > >Then you have a 380. The machine in those crummy pictures has a DIO-I > >expansion cab. > > So does mine, if that's the card with the ugly card-edge connector into > which > the additional LANCE board is plugged. The expansion cab is the second cabinet with DIO-I slots in it. The processor card is DIO-II and the extra lance card is DIO-I. At the moment I have 3 * DIO-II and 5 * DIO-I. I'm also thinking about expanding the expander, although it might slow things down due to shared interrupts. We'll see. There also exist DIO-II to DIO-I converters, you might have one of those. > > It's plugged straight in. Good for me. Depends on if you have a lot of HP-IB disks. I have, I want more :) > > Now, should I just run NetBSD or is HPUX any more sufferable on the 380 > than > on the 832? Depends if you want to use it for anything useful or not. IMHO a 380 is one the best 300-series machine there is (well, 385..) It's fast, can take a lot of memory and if you've got some kit it's a joy to expand. I've had at one point 13 hard drives + a big bunch of tape drives from 9-tracks to 9144/9145 + DATs. Dual framebuffers are cool if you've got 'em and so on. I'd suggest you give HP-UX a go and then install NetBSD. You could try one of the 4.3-reno=> (?) versions too. -- jht From jfoust at threedee.com Sat May 19 06:36:18 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: tape drives In-Reply-To: References: <200105172254.QAA20364@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010519063226.01dbacf0@pc> At 06:32 PM 5/18/01 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >But if you don't have automatic fast forward (and some way to judge the >approximate postiion of the tape automatically), then finding a >particular file is consists of rewinding the tape to the start and then >reading the tape (at normal speed) until you find the file you want. >Which, using one side of a C90 cassette, could take 45 minutes. This is >going to get boring fast. You've got to get out of basement more often, Tony. :-) Why, just yesterday afternoon I made several hundred dollars babysitting someone's WinNT box, coaxing its 5-gig Travan cart tape backup unit to retrieve one 13K file, and that took about three hours total to find the two tapes, read the catalog from the tapes, then get the file. Fortunately, there were other things to fix around that office. The 1200 baud speed of the 1541 drive did cross my mind as I waited. - John From lists at aussie.nu Sat May 19 08:07:45 2001 From: lists at aussie.nu (Lists) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: RSTS/E >7.0? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010519063226.01dbacf0@pc> Message-ID: Anyone have any advice on where I can obtain a copy of RSTS/E that's more recent then 7.0? I've got a 7.0 system running, but am really missing DCL :-( I've heard there's a hobbyist license for old DEC stuff, but haven't been able to find too much useful information on it. I'm almost desperate to re-live my college 11/70 experience :-) From bill at cs.scranton.edu Sat May 19 09:45:18 2001 From: bill at cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: Looking for : SUN S-BUS ethernet card (s) -- would like to trade In-Reply-To: <00bb01c0e010$8cefd3c0$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 May 2001, Claude.W wrote: > Hi > > I would need one or even better, two of these. > > See my for trade page. I have quite a bit of stuff... > > http://computer_collector.tripod.com/vintagecomputers/fortradeindex.html > > I have more. Ask. > > Thanks > Claude > http://computer_collector.tripod.com What are you willing to trade for them?? How about for 4 of them (so you have spares.) I was interested in the Color Computer 3 (I used to run OS9, but mine died.) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include From bill at cs.scranton.edu Sat May 19 09:48:40 2001 From: bill at cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: RSTS/E >7.0? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 19 May 2001, Lists wrote: > > Anyone have any advice on where I can obtain a copy of RSTS/E that's more > recent then 7.0? I've got a 7.0 system running, but am really missing DCL > :-( Yeah, you have to buy it from Mentec for a lot more than most hobbyists are willing (or able) to pay. > > I've heard there's a hobbyist license for old DEC stuff, but haven't been > able to find too much useful information on it. There are no hobbyist licenses for any PDP OS. You can get a license from SCO for some of the older Unixes, but it is not really a formal hobbyist program. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat May 19 10:37:57 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: PDP-11/53 In-Reply-To: <200105181906.f4IJ67s08331@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <200105191537.f4JFbvV00693@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 18 May, Eric Dittman wrote: > PDP-11/53 [....] RQDX3 and RD54 > So, does any here have a source for bootable ROMs > for this CPU? An interrim solution is to use an other computer with a scriptable terminal emulator like kermit or minicoma as console. With this setup you can run a script that feeds an bootstrap code via ODT into RAM. I own a PDP11/73 with MSCP ESDI adapter + 150MB disk, TK50, DELQA, DHV11 and 4MB RAM but no boot ROM card. I use a minicom script to boot 2.11BSD. This works fine. Bootstraps can be found on various sites on the net, convertig it to a script is just a bit of sed/awk. Or ask me for my minicon script. :-) -- tschuess, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz From jim at jkearney.com Sat May 19 10:52:59 2001 From: jim at jkearney.com (Jim Kearney) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: 8008 book identification Message-ID: <13e601c0e07b$c7900e80$0c01090a@xpace.net> Forgive me if this is common knowledge, but I haven't been able to dig up any information with a search engine, probably due to my very vague search terms... Around 1974-6 I had a book that covered 8008 system design, in a kind of cookbook fashion. I'm thinking it might have been published by Ohio Scientific, but that's far from reliable. As I recall, the cover was black and it was relatively thick. I built a 8008 system using it (wire wrapped, with 256 bytes of RAM), but book and computer have both vanished since then. I'd like to find another copy for nostalgia's sake. Does anyone have any clues? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010519/6fb1bbba/attachment.html From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Sat May 19 11:31:12 2001 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: 8008 book identification References: <13e601c0e07b$c7900e80$0c01090a@xpace.net> Message-ID: <015f01c0e081$1ee37500$3992a8c0@sympatico.ca> I remember having such a book! It's gone now..I think the publisher was Scelbi Publications? I have an old Intel data book with 8008 info (mostly clock drive etcs) that might be useful. Though there are sites that have pdf scans of both the 4004 and 8008 datasheets. I also have some Sclebi publications spiral books: one on an assember and another on a text editor listing full source (asm listings on asr33) and programming explanations. Contact me if you'd like copies. I'd like to get my 4004s doing something - please post if you come across something to do with those in your search - I think Osborne had a 4004 cookbook as well as alot of 8008 material. Regards, Heinz. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Kearney To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 11:52 AM Subject: 8008 book identification Forgive me if this is common knowledge, but I haven't been able to dig up any information with a search engine, probably due to my very vague search terms... Around 1974-6 I had a book that covered 8008 system design, in a kind of cookbook fashion. I'm thinking it might have been published by Ohio Scientific, but that's far from reliable. As I recall, the cover was black and it was relatively thick. I built a 8008 system using it (wire wrapped, with 256 bytes of RAM), but book and computer have both vanished since then. I'd like to find another copy for nostalgia's sake. Does anyone have any clues? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010519/7074e486/attachment.html From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sat May 19 12:07:09 2001 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: 8008 book identification In-Reply-To: <015f01c0e081$1ee37500$3992a8c0@sympatico.ca> "from Heinz Wolter at May 19, 2001 12:31:12 pm" Message-ID: <200105191707.MAA06318@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Scelbi "8080" Software Gourmet Guide and Cookbook. Assuming this is the book you're looking for, do a search on amazon.com and you'll find 2 used copies available in their Zshops. Other used bookstores will also have copies. -Larry LeMay > I remember having such a book! It's gone now..I think the publisher was > Scelbi Publications? I have an old Intel data book with 8008 > info (mostly clock drive etcs) that might be useful. Though there are > sites that have pdf scans of both the 4004 and 8008 datasheets. I also have some > Sclebi publications spiral books: one on an assember and another > on a text editor listing full source (asm listings on asr33) and programming > explanations. Contact me if you'd like copies. > > I'd like to get my 4004s doing something - please post if you > come across something to do with those in your search - I think Osborne > had a 4004 cookbook as well as alot of 8008 material. > > Regards, > Heinz. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jim Kearney > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 11:52 AM > Subject: 8008 book identification > > > Forgive me if this is common knowledge, but I haven't been able to dig up any information with a search engine, probably due to my very vague search terms... > > Around 1974-6 I had a book that covered 8008 system design, in a kind of cookbook fashion. I'm thinking it might have been published by Ohio Scientific, but that's far from reliable. As I recall, the cover was black and it was relatively thick. I built a 8008 system using it (wire wrapped, with 256 bytes of RAM), but book and computer have both vanished since then. I'd like to find another copy for nostalgia's sake. > > Does anyone have any clues? > From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat May 19 12:41:04 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: RSTS/E >7.0? In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.0.20010519063226.01dbacf0@pc> Message-ID: >Anyone have any advice on where I can obtain a copy of RSTS/E that's more >recent then 7.0? I've got a 7.0 system running, but am really missing DCL >:-( > >I've heard there's a hobbyist license for old DEC stuff, but haven't been >able to find too much useful information on it. > >I'm almost desperate to re-live my college 11/70 experience :-) The existing hobbyist license only covers using the OS's under Bob Supnik's emulators. The following is the segment of the license that shows what versions of the OS and layered products are covered under the license. The trick if finding copys. "Whereas, MENTEC owns the rights to the following PDP-11 Operating Systems and associated layered products (RT-11 V5.3 or prior, RSTS/E V9.6 or prior, RSX-11M V4.3 or prior, RSX-11M PLUS V3.0 or prior) (SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY) and is prepared to grant a non-exclusive license to use such SOFTWARE TECHNOLOGY for personal, non-commercial purposes;" Remember, copies of the software can ONLY LEGALLY be run under Bob Supnik's PDP-11 emulator. You can't run them on any other emulator, OR on real hardware! Having said that I'm afraid I don't know where you can get a version of RSTS/E newer than V7, I really wish I did. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jim at jkearney.com Sat May 19 12:52:40 2001 From: jim at jkearney.com (Jim Kearney) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: 8008 book identification References: <200105191707.MAA06318@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <174001c0e08c$7fbbc7f0$0c01090a@xpace.net> Possibly... it doesn't quite match my recollection, but I'll order one and find out. I think the book was a bit earlier, possibly an 8008 predecessor to this book? Thanks. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lawrence LeMay" To: Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 1:07 PM Subject: Re: 8008 book identification > Scelbi "8080" Software Gourmet Guide and Cookbook. > > Assuming this is the book you're looking for, do a search on amazon.com > and you'll find 2 used copies available in their Zshops. Other used > bookstores will also have copies. > > -Larry LeMay > > > I remember having such a book! It's gone now..I think the publisher was > > Scelbi Publications? I have an old Intel data book with 8008 > > info (mostly clock drive etcs) that might be useful. Though there are > > sites that have pdf scans of both the 4004 and 8008 datasheets. I also have some > > Sclebi publications spiral books: one on an assember and another > > on a text editor listing full source (asm listings on asr33) and programming > > explanations. Contact me if you'd like copies. > > > > I'd like to get my 4004s doing something - please post if you > > come across something to do with those in your search - I think Osborne > > had a 4004 cookbook as well as alot of 8008 material. > > > > Regards, > > Heinz. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Jim Kearney > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 11:52 AM > > Subject: 8008 book identification > > > > > > Forgive me if this is common knowledge, but I haven't been able to dig up any information with a search engine, probably due to my very vague search terms... > > > > Around 1974-6 I had a book that covered 8008 system design, in a kind of cookbook fashion. I'm thinking it might have been published by Ohio Scientific, but that's far from reliable. As I recall, the cover was black and it was relatively thick. I built a 8008 system using it (wire wrapped, with 256 bytes of RAM), but book and computer have both vanished since then. I'd like to find another copy for nostalgia's sake. > > > > Does anyone have any clues? > > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 19 13:24:01 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: tape drives In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010519063226.01dbacf0@pc> from "John Foust" at May 19, 1 06:36:18 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1080 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010519/3be015d2/attachment.ksh From vcf at siconic.com Sat May 19 12:38:37 2001 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: VCF East 1.0 Web Pages Are Up -- VOLUNTEERS NEEDED! Message-ID: The VCF East 1.0 web pages are now up: http://www.vintage.org/2001/east/ Please spread the news far and wide! *** VOLUNTEERS NEEDED *** I am seeking about 8-10 volunteers to perform various pre-event chores as well as to staff certain necessary positions at VCF East 1.0. Volunteers will be rewarded with free admission to VCF East 1.0, a free VCF t-shirt and free food and drink. Volunteers are needed to post event notices in and around the Boston/Marlborough area, spread flyers around at various functions that would attract attendees, send out messages to newsgroups, and also to perform certain duties at the VCF East. If you are interested, please e-mail me at . Thanks! SPREAD THE WORD!!! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat May 19 11:21:57 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: HP 300 In-Reply-To: <990270928.3b0655d088b8e@mail.er-grp.com> Message-ID: <200105191621.f4JGLvI00773@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 19 May, Jarkko Teppo wrote: > I'd suggest you give HP-UX a go and then install NetBSD. You could try > one of the 4.3-reno=> (?) versions too. With the help of an other *ix machine for diskless booting, it is easy to get NetBSD running on a hp300. Once NetBSD is running it is easy to get 4.4BSD on a disk. I used a diskless NetBSD setup to get 4.4BSD-Lite on my hp300 433t. I simply disklabeled / newfsed / mounted the disk with the NetBSD tools, copied 4.4BSD from MKM's CSRG CDs to it, instaled the bootblocks and it did boot. My next project in this area is getting 4.3BSD-Reno on my hp300 345 and my MicroVAX 3800. -- tschuess, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Sat May 19 14:20:37 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: VAX bar References: <200105152042.OAA10050@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <3B06C785.3243274E@aurora.regenstrief.org> Jim Strickland wrote: > 2. 11/780s aren't > especially uncommon. It WOULD be a tragedy if one of the wierd vaxen got made > into a bar - a 9000, for example. But the 11/780 sold zillions - it launched > the 32 bit minicomputer universe. Yes, but nevertheless they're hard to find these days. I bet there's about no IT department that still runs one. Most of them are probably already scrapped and some of them may reside in warehouses with those trade-used- parts-for-twice-the-price dealerships. Since there's no demand of the kind who would pay those high prices anymore, the last guard will probably see the scrapyard in masses (with far less oportunity for someone to rescue them.) In short, *because* the 11/780 was both so popular and beautiful, it is a tragedy for each one that goes. sniff, -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistent Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From jackknive at bmi-computers.com Sat May 19 14:28:23 2001 From: jackknive at bmi-computers.com (Adam Dietrick) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: qx-10 powersupply needed Message-ID: <3B06C957.10018239@bmi-computers.com> i am looking for a working powersupply (or even case portion) for a epson qx-10 if anyone has one or knows where i can get one, please mail me i'm trying to make a old man happy -adam From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 19 14:52:31 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: qx-10 powersupply needed In-Reply-To: <3B06C957.10018239@bmi-computers.com> from "Adam Dietrick" at May 19, 1 02:28:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 504 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010519/0b9ca148/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat May 19 16:13:08 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: tape drives In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: tape drives" (May 19, 19:24) References: Message-ID: <10105192213.ZM3376@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 19, 19:24, Tony Duell wrote: > Unfortunately, I don't have a basement. Wish I did, I'd have more space > for classic computers :-)... > > > yesterday afternoon I made several hundred dollars babysitting someone's > > WinNT box, coaxing its 5-gig Travan cart tape backup unit to > > retrieve one 13K file, and that took about three hours total > > But if what I find when I leave my machine room and get into the 'real > world' is machines running Lusedoze that take 3 hours to recover one 13K > file (heck, my calculator is faster than that), then I am not sure I want > to 'get out more' :-) It could be worse. Our campus filestore has gotten so big so fast that the backup technology installed couldn't keep up. At one point, it was taking 25 hours to do one day's backup, so *recovering* anything was not an option to be undertaken lightly :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From donm at cts.com Sat May 19 16:48:49 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: Slicing open the top of a 48T02 Sun Sparc chip to replace battery is that thing hollow or filled with epoxy? In-Reply-To: <002c01c0e01d$9b6c18c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 May 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Maybe the SmartSocket isn't what I wanted. Somewhere in the "pit" I've got a > Dallas socket that has a 3-volt battery in the bottom. It's potted in place but > provides 3 volts on pin 24, (maybe pin 28, but the upper left corner, anyway) in > this case and does nothing but provide power to keep the content of the resident > IC intact, and, maybe, gate the write signal off until the power is stabile. I > do believe there's no continuity between the write pin on the resident IC and > the corresponding socket pin, so something's going on. That sort of device > might work, don't you think? Next time I'm at the Dallas web site I'll try to > find the socket and let you know what the appropriate nomeclature is. > > Dick There is/was a Dallas SmartClock(?) that contained a battery for the internal clock/calendar and also carried a 28-pin socket atop the package. I don't believe that battery voltage was provided to the socket though. Ampro used them in their LittleBoard/PC. - don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pete Turnbull" > To: > Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 1:43 AM > Subject: Re: Slicing open the top of a 48T02 Sun Sparc chip to replace battery > is that thing hollow or filled with epoxy? > > > > On May 17, 19:34, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > Has anybody tried one of the DALLAS "smart socket" products with this > > thingie? > > > > Unfortunately the 48T02 is a TOD clock and calendar as well as NVRAM, so > > there's no suitable SmartSocket to replace it. The registers have to be at > > particular places and use a particular protocol too. > > > > > > > > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > > Network Manager > > University of York > > > > > > From chris at mainecoon.com Sat May 19 17:29:58 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: Someone missing a TI99/4? Message-ID: This is a little odd, but I seem to be in possession of a TI99/4 that was intended for someone else. Sometime the week-before-last a box turned up from Canada, addressed to me, with an import tag reading "PDP DEC Books & Parts", but which in fact contained a 99/4. I recognized the return address as being the guy that I purchased some stuff from some time back on eBay, so I sent a message asking where this thing was _really_ supposed to go and offering to help it on its way. The message didn't bounce, nor has there been a reply. I'm better that the odds are at least even that someone on the list did a deal to get this box. To that end, if someone can tell me what was included (there's more than a 99/4 in the box) and who the deal was done with I'll accept that they're the counterparty to the deal and send it on its way. Man, the things we do to preserve Good Collecting Karma :-) Cheers, Chris. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat May 19 17:47:29 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: Apple store In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I know it's not quite on topic, but I went to the grandopening of the new Apple store out at Tyson's Corner, VA today and it was just too cool. There was a guy there who had gotten in at 4am and was waiting for the opening but the mall guards kicked him out when they did their rounds! The supervisor of it's construction had seen him sitting there though so when the guy came back in later, after the line had gotten fairly well along, he went ahead and put the guy back in his original spot at the front. #2 guy drove all the way down from New Jersey. Even if you're not a Mac person, if you get the chance drop into one of the Apple retail stores. It's quite a difference from CompUSA. A bit more on-topic, it would seem that the stories about Steve Jobs perfectionism haven't been exagerated. The same supervisor, who I talked to prior to the opening as I was waiting, said that Jobs had visited the site a few times during construction and if something wasn't to his liking it was redone. It was said that he even made them tear out a wall and redo it. He also said that after they had trouble getting the 10 foot video screen working with a push of a single button the way he wanted that Jobs told them to put a picture of John Lennon and Yoko Ono over it. This picture is seen in the various pre-opening photographs. It was still there this morning but just before they opened they took it down and had the presentations working ok. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sat May 19 18:08:43 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: Apple store In-Reply-To: from Jeff Hellige at "May 19, 1 06:47:29 pm" Message-ID: <200105192308.QAA09234@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Even if you're not a Mac person, if you > get the chance drop into one of the Apple retail stores. It's quite > a difference from CompUSA. Anyone know of one in Southern California? Do they still support the older Power Macs at these stores, or is it New World Macs only? -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- If a seagull flies over the sea, what flies over the bay? ------------------ From edick at idcomm.com Sat May 19 18:25:39 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: tape drives References: Message-ID: <000f01c0e0bb$03fd1e00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The problem he's addressing isn't one with windows, Tony, it's with the backup software. I once had a VERY effective backup regimen based on DOS and a software tool set obtained from the manufacturer of my Exabyte tape drives, together with Novell, who made the networking software I then used. Unfortunately, with the appearance of Win95 and its associated long file names, this utility doesn't work well, i.e. it will backup, but can't restore long-named files, so it isn't terribly effective with Win9x. The drive backs up at nominally 30+ MB/minute, and will read/write at that rate under Windows just fine, yet won't work at much better than 10 MB/min with any of the backup utilities I've tried out. Since this is a problem common to all the backup utilities, I'd say it's a problem with the way software developers view SCSI, rather than with the OS, since the OS will read/write at rated speed using "Direct Tape Access," but not with the backup tools. I wish I could explain it. I find it odd that the backup tools all insist on SCSI-II tape drives, when every SCSI-II function can be produced with a combination of SCSI-I commands. I think what is being pointed out here is not the consumption of 3 hours in favor of recovering a 13 kB file, but the nominally $100 an hour one gets for the job on behalf of the VERY grateful client. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 12:24 PM Subject: Re: tape drives > > > > At 06:32 PM 5/18/01 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > >But if you don't have automatic fast forward (and some way to judge the > > >approximate postiion of the tape automatically), then finding a > > >particular file is consists of rewinding the tape to the start and then > > >reading the tape (at normal speed) until you find the file you want. > > >Which, using one side of a C90 cassette, could take 45 minutes. This is > > >going to get boring fast. > > > > You've got to get out of basement more often, Tony. :-) Why, just > > Unfortunately, I don't have a basement. Wish I did, I'd have more space > for classic computers :-)... > > > yesterday afternoon I made several hundred dollars babysitting someone's > > WinNT box, coaxing its 5-gig Travan cart tape backup unit to > > retrieve one 13K file, and that took about three hours total > > > But if what I find when I leave my machine room and get into the 'real > world' is machines running Lusedoze that take 3 hours to recover one 13K > file (heck, my calculator is faster than that), then I am not sure I want > to 'get out more' :-) > > -tony > > From optimus at canit.se Sat May 19 19:35:59 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: HP 300 In-Reply-To: <990270928.3b0655d088b8e@mail.er-grp.com> Message-ID: <2326.540T2950T956167optimus@canit.se> Jarkko Teppo skrev: >Quoting Iggy Drougge : >> jarkko.teppo skrev: >> >http://www.tec.puv.fi/~s99137/kuvat/380takaa2.jpg >> >http://www.tec.puv.fi/~s99137/kuvat/380takaa.jpg >> >> >Then you have a 380. The machine in those crummy pictures has a DIO-I >> >expansion cab. >> >> So does mine, if that's the card with the ugly card-edge connector into >> which >> the additional LANCE board is plugged. >The expansion cab is the second cabinet with DIO-I slots in it. >The processor card is DIO-II and the extra lance card is DIO-I. >At the moment I have 3 * DIO-II and 5 * DIO-I. I'm also thinking >about expanding the expander, although it might slow things down >due to shared interrupts. We'll see. There also exist DIO-II to >DIO-I converters, you might have one of those. PCI runs on shared interrupts and seems fast enough to me. >> It's plugged straight in. Good for me. >Depends on if you have a lot of HP-IB disks. I have, I want more :) HPIB disks? Can't say that I've seen a single one in my entire life. >> Now, should I just run NetBSD or is HPUX any more sufferable on the 380 >> than >> on the 832? >Depends if you want to use it for anything useful or not. I really can't imagine either system doing anything useful, since I'm essentially a UNIX hater, so that is of secondary importance. I just can't deal with HP-UX 10.something on the 822, it's so dreadfully slow, and then it's got binaries cluttered all over /etc for some very odd reason. >IMHO a 380 is one the best 300-series machine there is (well, 385..) But then all that would require is a new crystal, right? >It's fast, can take a lot of memory and if you've got some kit it's >a joy to expand. I've had at one point 13 hard drives + a big bunch >of tape drives from 9-tracks to 9144/9145 + DATs. Dual framebuffers >are cool if you've got 'em and so on. >I'd suggest you give HP-UX a go and then install NetBSD. You could try >one of the 4.3-reno=> (?) versions too. I don't suppose HP have got any hobbyist programme? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Se pensate che alcune sigle dei cartoni in Italia siano bruttine, ascoltatevi quella di Kenshiro in francese ("Ken le survivant")... Non saprei se sia pi? trash questa o quella di Mazinga Z in Francese... Nicola Solati om den franska signaturen till Hokut? no Ken From optimus at canit.se Sat May 19 19:28:14 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: VIRUS: Re: HP 1631D logic analyzer help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <292.540T700T883973optimus@canit.se> XenoSoft skrev: >On Fri, 18 May 2001, nellielide wrote: >> Anyone know where I can get a manual and logic probes >That message was infected with KAK. Not to mention HTML. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "Wer nichts zu sagen hat, sagt es auf Englisch." (-Walter Kr?mer, bez?gl. Anglizismen.) From optimus at canit.se Sat May 19 19:22:06 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: CMD drops Commodore 8-bit support In-Reply-To: <200105182349.QAA10054@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <419.540T300T824081optimus@canit.se> Cameron Kaiser skrev: >Creative Micro Designs, the last "big name" in Commodore hardware >development, is dropping Commodore 8-bit support as of 1 June. :-/ Isn't dropping C= 8-bit support paramount to dropping CMD altogether? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. SCSI is *NOT* magic. There are *fundamental technical reasons* why it is necessary to sacrifice a young goat to your SCSI chain now and then. -- John Woods From optimus at canit.se Sat May 19 19:21:02 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: 'cross computer movers referrals In-Reply-To: <3B05AE45.A0EE7C28@home.com> Message-ID: <420.540T100T813885optimus@canit.se> Doug Coward skrev: >"Bruce Ray" said >> moving companies moving RETMA-racked equipment. > Are these really pre-1957 racks or is that a >phrase of habit? Could you enlighten us rack nitwits as to what this business is about? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Och har du en TV utan Scart, vilket nittionio procent faktiskt har, kommer de f?rmodligen att ringa fr?n Antikrundan. Martin Timell From optimus at canit.se Sat May 19 19:37:14 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: HP 300 In-Reply-To: <200105191621.f4JGLvI00773@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <1028.540T700T973845optimus@canit.se> jkunz skrev: >On 19 May, Jarkko Teppo wrote: >> I'd suggest you give HP-UX a go and then install NetBSD. You could try >> one of the 4.3-reno=> (?) versions too. >With the help of an other *ix machine for diskless booting, it is easy >to get NetBSD running on a hp300. Once NetBSD is running it is easy to >get 4.4BSD on a disk. I used a diskless NetBSD setup to get 4.4BSD-Lite >on my hp300 433t. I simply disklabeled / newfsed / mounted the disk with >the NetBSD tools, copied 4.4BSD from MKM's CSRG CDs to it, instaled the >bootblocks and it did boot. My next project in this area is getting >4.3BSD-Reno on my hp300 345 and my MicroVAX 3800. Why 4.4BSD? Does it offer any advantage over NetBSD? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. - Hur tar du bilder fr?n TVn? - Jag anv?nder mig av en digitalkamera och fixar s? det blir m?rkt i rummet och kn?pper sedan bilden. - Hur g?r du dina mp3or? - Jag kopplar ett par h?rlurar till TVn, s?tter en mic framf?r h?rlurarna och spelar in med valfritt inspelningsprogram. Jenny Hannula From billj at ieee.org Sat May 19 18:40:22 2001 From: billj at ieee.org (Bill Janssen) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: ? DEC FAQ References: Message-ID: <3B070466.DF566AD@ieee.org> I have been looking without success for a listing of boards for the DEC PDP8. I have a couple of boards that I can't identify for DEC but am not sure what they are or what computer they are for. The boards are M5903 and M5904. There are a couple more that I left in the pile. Also is there a cheap or free terminal program that runs under MS DOS that will run at 110 baud. The ones I have start at 300. I gave away my TTY many years ago and now I can't run my PDP8E as it only goes 110. Thanks Bill K7NOM From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sat May 19 19:00:57 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: CMD drops Commodore 8-bit support In-Reply-To: <419.540T300T824081optimus@canit.se> from Iggy Drougge at "May 20, 1 01:22:06 am" Message-ID: <200105200000.RAA10426@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > >Creative Micro Designs, the last "big name" in Commodore hardware > >development, is dropping Commodore 8-bit support as of 1 June. :-/ > > Isn't dropping C= 8-bit support paramount to dropping CMD altogether? Well, they do have areas for Windows and Mac support. Never sure what they exactly did with those systems, but supposedly they have branched out. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- If your troubles are deep seated and of long-standing, try kneeling. ------- From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat May 19 19:03:46 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: Apple store In-Reply-To: <200105192308.QAA09234@stockholm.ptloma.edu> References: <200105192308.QAA09234@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: > > Even if you're not a Mac person, if you >> get the chance drop into one of the Apple retail stores. It's quite >> a difference from CompUSA. > >Anyone know of one in Southern California? Do they still support the >older Power Macs at these stores, or is it New World Macs only? They opened the 2nd one today in Glendale at the Glendale Galleria. They do sell peripherals and printers and a good selection of software, but it's geared more towards the more recent machines. The also sell digital video cameras and such. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhfine at idirect.com Sat May 19 19:07:15 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: VME532, GNX Unix and want for a Maxtor XT-4175E References: <200105181833.NAA73002@opal.tseinc.com> <20010518224226.25807.qmail@mail.seefried.com> Message-ID: <3B070AB3.D9CABFA0@idirect.com> >Ken Seefried wrote: > I need to find a working Maxtor XT-4175E disk drive. > > I've had the wonderful fortune to have picked up a Heurikon VME532 (NS32532 > based) development system. This is probably the fastest single-processor > 32532 system produced (Encore MultiMax was of course faster, with more > processors). > > The bonus is that this system is running GNX 3.1 with the National > Semiconductor cc compiler, along with a bunch of other development tools > (and source code for odd ns32k bits). Unfortunately, I don't have the > distribution media, so a disk crash would be fatal, wiping out an almost > unique machine. GNX is running on a Maxtor XT-4175E 175MB ESDI drive, and > if I could find another one, I should be able to 'dd' a bootable backup. > > Does anyone on the list have one of these drives that they'd be willing to > part with, or knows where I can buy one, in order for me to have a working > backup of this system? Jerome Fine replies: In all of my experience of working with ESDI drives and the controllers, I have never had a problem with using a larger capacity drive so long as the number of sectors per track (or blocks per track) was not greatly different from a drive which the controller could handle. So a Maxtor XT-4xxxE drive of any size greater than 175 MBytes should also be OK even if you end up wasting the part over 175 MBytes. In all my experience with ESDI drives, the controller accepted the geometry from the actual drive, although the LLF (Low Level Format) did need to be done by the controller since there is no uniform standard like there is for SCSI drives. If you are able to use an ESDI that is larger, I will ask a friend who may have one. Let me know. You may also be able to find a local source and at least try it out - I recommend removing the primary drive while you do the LLF of the secondary drive. If that works, I presume that you can transfer or make a backup of the primary. Be VERY (extremely) careful with setting drive numbers (DS1,2,etc.) On two occasions when I was not careful enough, I trashed the format on BOTH drives when they were set to the same DS1. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From rcini at optonline.net Sat May 19 19:26:56 2001 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:37 2005 Subject: OT: Altair32: C arrays and pointers Message-ID: Hello, all: Futher errors have been found in the Altair32 8080 processor emulator code by some eagle-eyed users. So, I'm trying to fix them, but my lack of depth in C programming has become evident. So, I'd like to enlist some help again. Here's the code (cut and paste; written by Claus Giloi): uchar regs[8] ; // A, F, B, C, D, E, H, L - actual storage order! // 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 // pointer array for sss, ddd addressing uchar * b_regs[8]= {®s[2],®s[3],®s[4],®s[5],®s[6],®s[7],&dummy,®s[0]} ; // B C D E H L trap! ACC // pointer array for rp addressing ushort * w_regs[4] = { (ushort *)®s[2], (ushort *)®s[4], (ushort *)®s[6], &SP } ; // B D H SP As you 8080 users know, several instructions operate on register pairs instead of individual registers. The instruction that began this odyssey was INX H. The INX B/D/H instructions increment the BC, DE, HL pairs. INX SP works. B/D/H don't. While the individual register halves reflect the proper values, the word registers are reversed. I guess it's because when accessing a word value in an array, the CRT code swaps the high-order and low-order bytes. So, I used the following code, which produces the desired result but is what I can only assume to be the sledgehammer way of doing what I want (lots of snipping): // u is the opcode and switch ((u&RP_MASK)>>4){ // RP_MASK isolates register pairs case 2: //HL tmpH = *pH ; // pointer to H storage tmpL = tmpL2 = *pL ; tmpL++; if (((tmpL & 0xff) == 0) && (tmpL2 == 0xff)) tmpH++ ; *pH = tmpH ; // save regs *pL = tmpL ; break ; // other cases omitted. } What I do is manually manipulate the byte registers (watching for rollover) to get the desired result, totally skipping the w_regs array. Bogus I admit, but it works. I can only imagine that there is a better way to do this. So, I'm asking for help finding the better way. Thanks again. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat May 19 19:24:46 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: ? DEC FAQ In-Reply-To: ? DEC FAQ (Bill Janssen) References: <3B070466.DF566AD@ieee.org> Message-ID: <15111.3790.54265.152035@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 19, Bill Janssen wrote: > I have been looking without success for a listing of boards > for the DEC PDP8. I have a couple of boards that I can't identify > for DEC but am not sure what they are or what computer they are for. A good reference can be found at: http://world.std.com/~mbg/pdp11-field-guide.txt [Thanks Megan!] > The boards are M5903 and M5904. There are a couple more that I left in > the pile. M5903 and M5904 aren't PDP8 boards...they're part of an RH11, a Massbus controller for Unibus-based PDP11 systems. If you plug them into an Omnibus system like a pdp8/e, you'll likely "let the magic smoke out". -Dave McGuire From dburrows at netpath.net Sat May 19 19:34:34 2001 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: ? DEC FAQ Message-ID: <0b6101c0e0c6$e68f6ec0$ad241bce@L166> >From the PDP11-field-guide that was last updated my Megan: M5903 RH11 U MASSBUS terminal transceiver M5904 RH11 U MASSBUS control transceiver Which explains why you could not find anything looking at PDP8 Lists.:) Dan -----Original Message----- From: Bill Janssen To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, May 19, 2001 7:48 PM Subject: ? DEC FAQ >I have been looking without success for a listing of boards >for the DEC PDP8. I have a couple of boards that I can't identify >for DEC but am not sure what they are or what computer they are for. > >The boards are M5903 and M5904. There are a couple more that I left in >the pile. > >Also is there a cheap or free terminal program that runs under MS DOS >that will run at 110 baud. The ones I have start at 300. I gave away >my TTY many years ago and now I can't run my PDP8E as it only goes 110. > >Thanks >Bill K7NOM From lists at aussie.nu Sat May 19 20:08:06 2001 From: lists at aussie.nu (Lists) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: RSTS/E >7.0? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Remember, copies of the software can ONLY LEGALLY be run under Bob > Supnik's PDP-11 emulator. That's what I'm wanting to do. > You can't run them on any other emulator, OR on real hardware! There isn't any way known I could run real hardware here - the power feed into the shed just isn't fat enough to power one (on any size) up. > Having said that I'm afraid I don't know where you can get a version > of RSTS/E newer than V7, I really wish I did. Likewise :-) From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat May 19 20:12:07 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: ? DEC FAQ In-Reply-To: Bill Janssen "? DEC FAQ" (May 19, 16:40) References: <3B070466.DF566AD@ieee.org> Message-ID: <10105200212.ZM3753@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 19, 16:40, Bill Janssen wrote: > I have been looking without success for a listing of boards > for the DEC PDP8. I have a couple of boards that I can't identify > for DEC but am not sure what they are or what computer they are for. > > The boards are M5903 and M5904. There are a couple more that I left in > the pile. M5903 and M5904 are MASSBUS terminal and control transceivers, respectivley, probably out of a PDP-11. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat May 19 20:27:03 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: Slicing open the top of a 48T02 Sun Sparc chip to replace battery is that thing hollow or filled with epoxy? In-Reply-To: References: <002c01c0e01d$9b6c18c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010519182502.01dc29e0@mail.zipcon.net> I downloaded the datasheet for the 48t02's, i think i may have a handful of 32.768 xtals here so I'm looking ar chopping the tops off the bad chips I have and taking protoboard and refitting them with a new xtal and batteryholder package that can take a replacable lithium cell. :) I sacrificed one yesterday to the great dremel in the sky to see how the top was put together... At 02:48 PM 5/19/01 -0700, you wrote: >On Fri, 18 May 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Maybe the SmartSocket isn't what I wanted. Somewhere in the "pit" I've > got a > > Dallas socket that has a 3-volt battery in the bottom. It's potted in > place but > > provides 3 volts on pin 24, (maybe pin 28, but the upper left corner, > anyway) in > > this case and does nothing but provide power to keep the content of the > resident > > IC intact, and, maybe, gate the write signal off until the power is > stabile. I > > do believe there's no continuity between the write pin on the resident > IC and > > the corresponding socket pin, so something's going on. That sort of device > > might work, don't you think? Next time I'm at the Dallas web site I'll > try to > > find the socket and let you know what the appropriate nomeclature is. > > > > Dick > >There is/was a Dallas SmartClock(?) that contained a battery for the >internal clock/calendar and also carried a 28-pin socket atop the >package. I don't believe that battery voltage was provided to the >socket though. Ampro used them in their LittleBoard/PC. > > - don > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Pete Turnbull" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 1:43 AM > > Subject: Re: Slicing open the top of a 48T02 Sun Sparc chip to replace > battery > > is that thing hollow or filled with epoxy? > > > > > > > On May 17, 19:34, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > > > Has anybody tried one of the DALLAS "smart socket" products with this > > > thingie? > > > > > > Unfortunately the 48T02 is a TOD clock and calendar as well as NVRAM, so > > > there's no suitable SmartSocket to replace it. The registers have to > be at > > > particular places and use a particular protocol too. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Pete Peter Turnbull > > > Network Manager > > > University of York > > > > > > > > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat May 19 20:08:40 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: ? DEC FAQ Message-ID: <007e01c0e0cb$65db7d00$4c759a8d@ajp166> From: Bill Janssen > >The boards are M5903 and M5904. There are a couple more that I left in >the pile. Dont recognize them as PDP-8. >Also is there a cheap or free terminal program that runs under MS DOS >that will run at 110 baud. The ones I have start at 300. I gave away >my TTY many years ago and now I can't run my PDP8E as it only goes 110. Try an old version of procomm. Allison From jpero at sympatico.ca Sat May 19 16:37:44 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: Slicing open the top of a 48T02 Sun Sparc chip to replace b In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010519182502.01dc29e0@mail.zipcon.net> References: Message-ID: <20010520013459.SFBD27183.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 18:27:03 -0700 > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > From: Geoff Reed > Subject: Re: Slicing open the top of a 48T02 Sun Sparc chip to replace > battery is that thing hollow or filled with epoxy? > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > I downloaded the datasheet for the 48t02's, i think i may have a handful of > 32.768 xtals here so I'm looking ar chopping the tops off the bad chips I > have and taking protoboard and refitting them with a new xtal and > batteryholder package that can take a replacable lithium cell. :) I > sacrificed one yesterday to the great dremel in the sky to see how the top > was put together... X-ray will work too and far better. I haven't. If anybody did, post those scans online pretty please? Especially DS12887 series. Your method on total desruction on both crystal and battery is far easier than nibbling away carefully bit by bit without eating important lead or two. :-) The stuff to fill with is nasty and eats up cutting bits and blunt saws fast. I discovered that when I punched a hole on corner of a delegged 486SX SMD (black package style w/ bumpers on all 4 corners) with a titanium drill bit making into keychain tag. I think it's made of special epoxy and glass powder. Grab $1 quartz watch, these uses this 32.768KHz crystals. Far accurate than those on junky peecee motherboards. Cheers, Wizard > > At 02:48 PM 5/19/01 -0700, you wrote: > > > >On Fri, 18 May 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat May 19 20:43:49 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: Apple store In-Reply-To: <200105192308.QAA09234@stockholm.ptloma.edu> References: from Jeff Hellige at "May 19, 1 06:47:29 pm" Message-ID: >> Even if you're not a Mac person, if you >> get the chance drop into one of the Apple retail stores. It's quite >> a difference from CompUSA. > >Anyone know of one in Southern California? Do they still support the >older Power Macs at these stores, or is it New World Macs only? http://www.apple.com/retail/ Glendale Galleria 2148 Glendale Galleria Space 2126 Glendale, CA 91210 My guess is that the stores are pure showcases, ie no fuss of any kind, and no support or service at least in thepublic view. See the new mac, isn't it wonderfull, pay full list price. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat May 19 20:45:18 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: ? DEC FAQ In-Reply-To: <15111.3790.54265.152035@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: ? DEC FAQ (Bill Janssen) <3B070466.DF566AD@ieee.org> Message-ID: >On May 19, Bill Janssen wrote: >> I have been looking without success for a listing of boards >> for the DEC PDP8. I have a couple of boards that I can't identify >> for DEC but am not sure what they are or what computer they are for. > > A good reference can be found at: > > http://world.std.com/~mbg/pdp11-field-guide.txt > > [Thanks Megan!] The best reference for non-Unibus non-Q-Bus boards would be the following: ftp://zane.brouhaha.com/pub/ModuleList.txt It combines the various PDP-8 lists and adds other boards. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Sat May 19 22:05:20 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: My IBM 1130 References: <200105181730.f4IHUi111645@mnmai05.mn.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <002b01c0e0d9$b62113c0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 1:23 PM Subject: Re: My IBM 1130 > I've put some new info about the 1130 on the website, like > sizes (big) and weights (heavy). Also, I'm accepting offers > on it until June 15th. We'll see what happens... > (www.bigoakhill.com, click on ForSale). My wife said NO! My first program was written for an IBM 1130. I seem to recall there being a much larger blue box in the other corner of the room (twice the size of the printer). I did manage to pick up a beigeTI 99 today with the expansion box, 32K ram, RS232, floppy drive and a TI cassette recorder, and I put a palm personal in a box to wait a few more years. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat May 19 21:58:44 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: Slicing open the top of a 48T02 Sun Sparc chip to replace b Message-ID: <009501c0e0da$e15d62e0$4c759a8d@ajp166> > From: Geoff Reed > I downloaded the datasheet for the 48t02's, i think i may have a handful of > 32.768 xtals here so I'm looking ar chopping the tops off the bad chips I > have and taking protoboard and refitting them with a new xtal and > batteryholder package that can take a replacable lithium cell. :) I > sacrificed one yesterday to the great dremel in the sky to see how the top > was put together... Your sound like serious ly damaging the top. First you can locate the battery with a small magnet as it's steel/nickel cased. Then grind down the the approximate center and do not grind metal away if you can. then grind to the edges and pry old battery out. I've done a few of these and it's that simple. Making it rocket science is unneeded. FYI the top carries, diode, battery, crystal and two capacitors. Allison From epgroot at ucdavis.edu Sat May 19 22:21:38 2001 From: epgroot at ucdavis.edu (Edwin P. Groot) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: Jeopardy In-Reply-To: <09bc01c0dff1$f23d7440$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <200105181833.NAA73002@opal.tseinc.com> <20010518224226.25807.qmail@mail.seefried.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20010519202138.006ba8a0@yellow.ucdavis.edu> At 19:26 5/18/01 -0400, you wrote: >Jeopardy just had a switch on its standard category of >"Potent Potables" where it changed to "Potent Portables". How are those two categories different?! >They had a clue where they named the Osborne 1 and described >it in in great detail (Weight & Size). >The response was "What is a briefcase?" Whoah! That machine was neither briefcase-sized or -weighted. It was the size of a portable sewing machine and weighed a fair amount. Even though it was designed to be carry-on sized for air travel, I sure wouldn't want to walk around airport terminals with this heavy thing! We've got a bone to pick with Alex Trebeck. Edwin > >John A. > > From claudew at videotron.ca Sat May 19 22:19:06 2001 From: claudew at videotron.ca (Claude.W) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: Weekend finds : carload of Commodore for $10 Message-ID: <004f01c0e0db$a0afa860$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> I grew up using Commodore equipement at home. Finding Commodore stuff is always fun for me. Friend of mine called and said to go over at this guy's place to empty out all his Commodore stuff for $10. Nothing exotic or really rare here, but I filled my car with: 1 Amiga 2000HD (not looked inside yet for possible goodies like accel boards...) 1 Amiga 500 1 Amiga 1084S monitor 1 Amiga Ext Floppy 1 Mackintosh (Apple clone maker IIRC) branded composite monitor 3 C64s computers 2 1541 drives 1 1541 II drives Approx 1000+ floppies of Commodore software Some original C64 software inbox like Sub Logic Flight Sim for C64...SSIs Computer Baseball... 2 Fast Load + some other assorted C64 carts 1 Mps801 printer 2 Amiga mice 1 Super Graphix Printer Interface for C64 1 C64 Koala Pad (?) Several books like : Mapping the Commodore 64, The Best of TorPet (good reading!) and other books for 6502 programming and similar. 1 Ton of cables and power supplies for all of this 2 Ribbons for the Mps801 1 Sun Mouse (what was that doing in there?) 1 386 clone (he was cleaning out...) Claude http://computer_collector.tripod.com From jcook793 at yahoo.com Sat May 19 22:20:42 2001 From: jcook793 at yahoo.com (John Cook) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: Dayton Hamvention report In-Reply-To: <20010518204421.59652.qmail@web9503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I was able to hit the Hamvention myself today. The item of the day was definitely the 486 laptop. I saw tons of these, as well as its close cousin, the 386 laptop. Not a lot of great classic hardware around, but I did see many older Sparcstation boxes. Also of interest was an SGI Indigo Iris (passed on it at $75) and an Apple II made especially for Bell & Howell with drive (also passed, $350!). I did pick up a nice Commodore drive -- the MSD SD-2, $20. All in all it was a good time, though. I just like looking at all that old stuff and wondering what the heck it does! :) -John > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks > Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 4:44 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Dayton Hamvention report > > > > For all of you who have been able to enjoy it, the word is... > > Wet. > > I managed to pick up a Thinkpad 360C with a cracked hinge for $20 and a > docking station for it for $5 (locked with no key, but it took 5 minutes > to disassemble the lock via the ISA slot). Other notables include a free > Silent 700 (from the same guy who gave me that pile of Atari 800 stuff > a few weeks ago) and a copy of "The Lost Treasures of Infocom" on floppy > (with maps and books) for $5. > > Dayton is more fun when it's dry, but it's even fun on a day like today. > It's just indoor fun. > > -ethan > > > ===== > Visit "The Seventh Continent" > http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat May 19 22:21:37 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: Apple store In-Reply-To: References: from Jeff Hellige at "May 19, 1 06:47:29 pm" Message-ID: >My guess is that the stores are pure showcases, ie no fuss of any kind, and >no support or service at least in thepublic view. See the new mac, isn't it >wonderfull, pay full list price. I'm sure there's some kind of service area on site. There are people in-store who's whole job is tech support and it certainly can't be any worse than asking the clueless clerks a question, even PC related, in such stores as CompUSA. As for paying full list, if you check out the specs of say the new iBook, you'll see that the list of $1300 is actually pretty reasonable. At that price they were selling quite well while I was there. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From spc at conman.org Sat May 19 22:34:10 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: OT: Altair32: C arrays and pointers In-Reply-To: from "Richard A. Cini, Jr." at May 19, 2001 08:26:56 PM Message-ID: <200105200334.XAA05491@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Richard A. Cini, Jr. once stated: > > Hello, all: > > Futher errors have been found in the Altair32 8080 processor emulator code > by some eagle-eyed users. So, I'm trying to fix them, but my lack of depth > in C programming has become evident. So, I'd like to enlist some help again. > > Here's the code (cut and paste; written by Claus Giloi): Okay, as one of the few token C programmers here, I'll take a shot at this. I'll give several solutions of varying amount of portability and speed, so pick wisely 8-) The code is ANSI C, which was passed in 1989, making it on topic for this group 8-P > uchar regs[8] ; // A, F, B, C, D, E, H, L - actual storage order! > // 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 > > // pointer array for sss, ddd addressing > uchar * b_regs[8]= > {®s[2],®s[3],®s[4],®s[5],®s[6],®s[7],&dummy,®s[0]} ; > // B C D E H L trap! ACC > > // pointer array for rp addressing > ushort * w_regs[4] = > { (ushort *)®s[2], (ushort *)®s[4], (ushort *)®s[6], &SP } ; > // B D H SP > The following assumes an 8-bit character, 2 character in a short (most modern machines), either big endian or little endian (you need to define LITTLE_END): #include /*--------------------------------------------- ; if Intel based, set to 1, otherwise (say, for ; Motorola systems) set to 0 ;---------------------------------------------*/ #define LITTLE_END 1 #if CHAR_BIT != 8 # error No 8bit bytes supported on this system #else typedef unsigned char byte; #endif #if (USHRT_MAX != 65535UL) # error No 16bit type supported on this system #else typedef unsigned short word; #endif union defregs { byte b[2]; word w; } regs[4]; /* AF , BC, DE, HL */ #if LITTLE_END # define A regs[0].1[1] # define F regs[0].l[0] # define B regs[1].l[1] # define C regs[1].l[0] # define D regs[2].l[1] # define E regs[2].l[0] # define H regs[3].l[1] # define L regs[3].l[0] #else # define A regs[0].l[0] # define F regs[0].l[1] # define B regs[1].l[0] # define C regs[1].l[1] # define D regs[2].l[0] # define E regs[2].l[1] # define H regs[3].l[0] # define L regs[3].l[1] #endif #define BC regs[1].w #define DE regs[2].w #define HL regs[3].w You now have an easier way to reference the registers, the following code: > switch ((u&RP_MASK)>>4){ // RP_MASK isolates register pairs > case 2: //HL > tmpH = *pH ; // pointer to H storage > tmpL = tmpL2 = *pL ; > tmpL++; > if (((tmpL & 0xff) == 0) && (tmpL2 == 0xff)) tmpH++ ; > *pH = tmpH ; // save regs > *pL = tmpL ; > break ; > // other cases omitted. > } Can be replaced with: switch((u & RP_MASK) >> 4) { case 2: /* HL */ HL++; break; /* other cases */ } To increment a register pair and check for carry (say, BC): unsigned long tmp; tmp = BC; tmp++; if (tmp > USHRT_MAX) { /* set carry flag */ } BC = tmp & 0xFFFFul; The more portable, but slower method (and not dependant upon endianness) is: #include typedef unsigned char byte; byte regs[8]; #define A regs[0] #define F regs[1] #define B regs[2] #define C regs[3] #define D regs[4] #define E regs[5] #define H regs[6] #define L regs[7] #define rBC ( ((B) << 8) | (C) ) #define rDE ( ((D) << 8) | (E) ) #define rHL ( ((H) << 8) | (L) ) /*------------------------------------------------------------ ; The following macros evaluate the parameter more than once. ; be careful on how you use these. Beware of side effects! ;------------------------------------------------------------*/ #define wBC(w) (B) = ((w) >> 8) & 0xFF) ; (C) = ((w) & 0xFF) #define wDE(w) (D) = ((w) >> 8) & 0xFF) ; (E) = ((w) & 0xFF) #define wHL(w) (H) = ((w) >> 8) & 0xFF) ; (L) = ((w) & 0xFF) switch((u & RP_MASK) >> 4) { unsigned int tmp; case 2: /* HL */ tmp = rHL + 1; wHL(tmp); break; /* other cases */ } /*------------------------------------- ; That carry thang ... ;--------------------------------------*/ unsigned long tmp; tmp = BC; tmp++; if (tmp > USHRT_MAX) { /* set carry flag */ } wBC(tmp); Sigh. I've been programming in C for waaaaay too long 8-) -spc (Sorry about the C code ... ) From jarkko.teppo at er-grp.com Sun May 20 03:39:07 2001 From: jarkko.teppo at er-grp.com (Jarkko Teppo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: HP 300 Message-ID: <990347947.3b0782abecd1d@mail.er-grp.com> (..must...try...resending...) Quoting Iggy Drougge : > > PCI runs on shared interrupts and seems fast enough to me. Well, DIO-II maxes out at about 5MB/s :) > > HPIB disks? Can't say that I've seen a single one in my entire life. They're lovely. I'm just saving them for those /500-machines as they can only use HP-IB disks. > > >Depends if you want to use it for anything useful or not. > > I really can't imagine either system doing anything useful, since I'm > essentially a UNIX hater, so that is of secondary importance. I just > can't > deal with HP-UX 10.something on the 822, it's so dreadfully slow, and > then > it's got binaries cluttered all over /etc for some very odd reason. Well, gimme the 822 if it bothers you that much :-). Anyway, it's probably possible to run HP-BASIC on it too but if I had to choose between HP-UX and NetBSD I'd take NetBSD. I do have HP-UX on some machines tough. > But then all that would require is a new crystal, right? There are some conflicting rumors on the 385. Basically HP-UX and NetBSD recognise the machine (380/385) via MMU_ID. This changes if you move one of the wait-state jumpers near the processor (marked 33/25 or something). I have a 25MHz 385.. Anyway, some reports say that a real 385 would be 33MHz and some say 40MHz. > I don't suppose HP have got any hobbyist programme? Not that I know of. You can shell out couple of thousand bucks on 9.1 or contact someone with a lot of different HP-UX versions on CD or 9144 tape. -- jht ----- End forwarded message ----- -- jht From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun May 20 04:04:26 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: HP 300 In-Reply-To: <1028.540T700T973845optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <200105200904.f4K94Ra00453@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 20 May, Iggy Drougge wrote: [installing NetBSD or 4.4BSD or 4.3BSD-Reno on a hp300] > Why 4.4BSD? Does it offer any advantage over NetBSD? It is older. ;-) It allways depends on your needs. - If you want a modern *ix OS, NetBSD is what you want. NetBSD is a nice, pure and small but complete Unix. It is my faforit OS. - If you want the OS this machine was build with, HP-UX is wat you want. HP-UX is a bit, hmm? I don't like it that much. - If you are interrested in the history of software, und / or you are a BSD Unix geek like me, some old 4.x BSD is what you want. I have several (ca. 30) *ix machines around here, most of them running NetBSD. So it is very interresting to work with some historic BSD releases on machines of the same vintage to see how things evolved. An other reason could be that NetBSD (1.5) got a bit "bloated" and it does not run that fast on a slower machine like a MicroVAX II or hp320. But that does'nt bother you if you own a hp380. -- tschuess, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz From bwit at pobox.com Sun May 20 05:46:02 2001 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: OT: Altair32: C arrays and pointers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010520054330.00b13798@mail.ruffboy.com> At 08:26 PM 5/19/2001 -0400, you wrote: >Hello, all: > > Futher errors have been found in the Altair32 8080 processor > emulator code >by some eagle-eyed users. So, I'm trying to fix them, but my lack of depth >in C programming has become evident. So, I'd like to enlist some help again. > > Here's the code (cut and paste; written by Claus Giloi): > >uchar regs[8] ; // A, F, B, C, D, E, H, L - actual storage order! > // 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 > >// pointer array for sss, ddd addressing >uchar * b_regs[8]= >{®s[2],®s[3],®s[4],®s[5],®s[6],®s[7],&dummy,®s[0]} ; >// B C D E H L trap! ACC > >// pointer array for rp addressing >ushort * w_regs[4] = >{ (ushort *)®s[2], (ushort *)®s[4], (ushort *)®s[6], &SP } ; >// B D H SP > This arrangement looks like it would work on a big endian machine but fail on a little endian. Is that the symptom you are seeing? Bob -------------------------------------------------------- "If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." -- Mark Twain From gareth.knight at btinternet.com Sun May 20 06:50:12 2001 From: gareth.knight at btinternet.com (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: Arcadia Amiga References: <20010410202127.7753.qmail@web9503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000f01c0e12d$74db9760$0101010a@pentium2> Is anyone familiar with the 'Arcadia Amiga' arcade machine? -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide http://amiga.emugaming.com Home of the Amiga magazine guide, Complete Amiga prototype/official/clone list, and more! From jfoust at threedee.com Sun May 20 08:26:04 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: Weekend finds : carload of Commodore for $10 In-Reply-To: <004f01c0e0db$a0afa860$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010520082446.00c86c80@pc> At 11:19 PM 5/19/01 -0400, Claude.W wrote: >I grew up using Commodore equipement at home. >1 Sun Mouse (what was that doing in there?) I seem to remember that a Sun mouse was quite similar to an Amiga mouse. In particular, the ones that required a reflective mouse pad were quite fashionable. - John From pechter at bg-tc-ppp384.monmouth.com Sun May 20 09:01:13 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp384.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: ? DEC FAQ In-Reply-To: <3B070466.DF566AD@ieee.org> from Bill Janssen at "May 19, 2001 04:40:22 pm" Message-ID: <200105201401.f4KE1D813870@bg-tc-ppp384.monmouth.com> > I have been looking without success for a listing of boards > for the DEC PDP8. I have a couple of boards that I can't identify > for DEC but am not sure what they are or what computer they are for. > > The boards are M5903 and M5904. There are a couple more that I left in > the pile. > > Also is there a cheap or free terminal program that runs under MS DOS > that will run at 110 baud. The ones I have start at 300. I gave away > my TTY many years ago and now I can't run my PDP8E as it only goes 110. > > Thanks > Bill K7NOM MS-KERMIT does great vt100 and I think it will do 110. Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From pechter at bg-tc-ppp384.monmouth.com Sun May 20 09:06:33 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp384.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: VAX bar In-Reply-To: <3B06C785.3243274E@aurora.regenstrief.org> from Gunther Schadow at "May 19, 2001 07:20:37 pm" Message-ID: <200105201406.f4KE6X813916@bg-tc-ppp384.monmouth.com> > Jim Strickland wrote: > > 2. 11/780s aren't > > especially uncommon. It WOULD be a tragedy if one of the wierd vaxen got made > > into a bar - a 9000, for example. But the 11/780 sold zillions - it launched > > the 32 bit minicomputer universe. Agreed... > > Yes, but nevertheless they're hard to find these days. I bet there's about > no IT department that still runs one. Most of them are probably already > scrapped and some of them may reside in warehouses with those trade-used- > parts-for-twice-the-price dealerships. Since there's no demand of the kind > who would pay those high prices anymore, the last guard will probably see > the scrapyard in masses (with far less oportunity for someone to rescue > them.) Considering they've got less processing power than a '386' they're not going to be found in any IS department. Almost all of the ones I knew in IS -- (and I worked at DEC and installed a ton of them) were upgraded to 11/785's in the mid to late 80's and in the 90's they were long since scrapped out. > In short, *because* the 11/780 was both so popular and beautiful, it is a > tragedy for each one that goes. > sniff, > -Gunther I love 11/780's but I can't see them being run at home. The cost/benefit ratio isn't right. You can run a full cluster of Microvax systems for a lot less than 1 11/780 and you can blow the doors off the older machine with them.jj > -- > Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org > Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care > Adjunct Assistent Professor Indiana University School of Medicine > tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org > > Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From jcook793 at yahoo.com Sun May 20 09:50:04 2001 From: jcook793 at yahoo.com (John Cook) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: Arcadia Amiga In-Reply-To: <000f01c0e12d$74db9760$0101010a@pentium2> Message-ID: I remember "back in the day" when I had an Amiga I had heard of the machine. I'd brag to my friends that the Amiga was so powerful that it ran some arcade games. I think it was just an Amiga 500 with a custom ROM on board. I searched around and found a little info on it: http://www.arcadecollecting.com/mametargets/arcadia.html -John > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Gareth Knight > Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 7:50 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Arcadia Amiga > > > Is anyone familiar with the 'Arcadia Amiga' arcade machine? > -- > Gareth Knight > Amiga Interactive Guide http://amiga.emugaming.com > Home of the Amiga magazine guide, Complete Amiga prototype/official/clone > list, and more! > > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From jfoust at threedee.com Sun May 20 12:08:14 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: tape drives In-Reply-To: <000f01c0e0bb$03fd1e00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010520120137.01d369d0@pc> At 05:25 PM 5/19/01 -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: >I think what is being pointed out here is not the consumption of 3 hours in >favor of recovering a 13 kB file, but the nominally $100 an hour one gets for >the job on behalf of the VERY grateful client. Yes, this client was an attorney's office, and this 13K license file for a research app was preventing two attorneys from completing a case. They are probably billed-out at twice my rate. This backup unit (IDE for what reason; the server was SCSI-based) and WinNT's Backup program (not the sharpest crayon in the box) had not much more than 5 gig to search. What strikes me the hardest in the classic computing sense is the loss of the distinction between /bin and /usr : with Windows, it's all a big lump, so offices are spending inordinate amounts of money on oversized tape backup units. - John From jarkko.teppo at er-grp.com Sun May 20 12:17:45 2001 From: jarkko.teppo at er-grp.com (Jarkko Teppo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: HP 9000 DOS sw ? Message-ID: <990379065.3b07fc39dbbb4@mail.er-grp.com> Hello all! I was going through my old and embarassing posts on groups.google.com and found out/remembered that I have an HP 98286 DIO-I card for HP 9000 series 300. It has a 286 processor but unfortunately I don't have the software necessary to use it.. if anyone has the software I'd really like to know as I want to try some older games like Leisuresuit Larry on HP-UX :) (a nice game btw, I know of at least PC, Amiga and Mac versions. Might be more) -- jht From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 20 12:52:23 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: Slicing open the top of a 48T02 Sun Sparc chip to replace b In-Reply-To: <20010520013459.SFBD27183.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> from "jpero@sympatico.ca" at May 19, 1 09:37:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 774 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010520/e99adf71/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 20 13:18:30 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: VAX bar In-Reply-To: <200105201406.f4KE6X813916@bg-tc-ppp384.monmouth.com> from "Bill Pechter" at May 20, 1 10:06:33 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1366 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010520/4c7ef73b/attachment.ksh From jpero at sympatico.ca Sun May 20 10:19:42 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: Slicing open the top of a 48T02 Sun Sparc chip to replace b In-Reply-To: References: <20010520013459.SFBD27183.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> from "jpero@sympatico.ca" at May 19, 1 09:37:44 pm Message-ID: <20010520191655.PRID15234.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: Slicing open the top of a 48T02 Sun Sparc chip to replace b > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 18:52:23 +0100 (BST) > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Actually, most PC motherboards use wristwatch crystals (at least those > where the crystal isn't hidden inside one of these Dalas (etc) chips). Those that appeared on the motherboard after '96 or so, common now. Chances of finding a crystal: early Pentium 30% late 80%. 486 90%. Slot 1/socket 370 95%. > Wristwatches keep better time than PC motherboards for 2 main reasons. > Firstly, there is a trimmer capacitor in the oscillator circuit of the > wristwatch which will 'pull' the frequency a little. When was the last > time you saw a trimmer on a PC motherboard? Sure, Open any 1 to 50 dollar quartz clocks and watches let it be digital or analog. No trimmer. started around late '90's. What happened most machines has weak batteries, accuracy go astray. Keep your eye on that voltage. Double that watchfulness for that machines that uses NiCd or 4 x AA, when voltage drops too much, replace or remove them either in use or not in use, they leak and corrodes the PCB traces. Doesn't take long to happen, few months is enough. > And secondly, wristwatches, at least while being worn, are kept at a > fairly constant temperature. This improves the stability of the > oscillator. Remmber that the frequency doesn't have to drift by very much > for the error to be noticeable Not all people wear it all the time, yet it keeps accurate time especially on quartz ones. Cheers, Wizard - automatic watch user. Saved $35 worth of batteries, watches I had battery has to be replaecd yearly. :-) > -tony From philpem at btinternet.com Sun May 20 16:14:04 2001 From: philpem at btinternet.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: Sharp CE-515P plotter/printer - info? Message-ID: <003701c0e171$cde40240$87387ad5@tsunami> Hi, I've just acquired a nice little Sharp plotter/printer (model CE-515P). It seems to be in reasonably good condition and it works (to some extent). Only problem is, I don't have a manual. Does anyone here know what the control codes for this little thing are? I also need the pinouts for the RS232C port on the back. Also, does anyone know where to get pens and plotter rolls for this thing? -- Phil. http://www.philpem.f9.co.uk/ philpem@bigfoot.com From witchy at vorbis.demon.co.uk Sun May 20 16:27:19 2001 From: witchy at vorbis.demon.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: EACA Color Genie Message-ID: Hi folks, I thought there was only 1 version of this machine going by what I'd seen in magazines and the like, and I thought I had it already, but today I picked up another one in slightly better condition that has a VU meter similar to that found on the Video Genie I for tape loading purposes. I'm going to do a search now and a like-for-like comparison on tuesday (got to work my arse off tomorrow getting the cloakroom ready for the plasterers) but if anyone's got any insight that'd be smart. cheers! adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the Online Computer Museum 0:OK, 0:1 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 20 16:40:50 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: Sharp CE-515P plotter/printer - info? In-Reply-To: <003701c0e171$cde40240$87387ad5@tsunami> from "Philip Pemberton" at May 20, 1 10:14:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3666 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010520/5de6b39c/attachment.ksh From hardwire at ptd.net Sun May 20 17:26:27 2001 From: hardwire at ptd.net (Christopher Caldwell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: Sharp CE-515P plotter/printer - info? References: <003701c0e171$cde40240$87387ad5@tsunami> Message-ID: <3B084493.AAF8A0DD@ptd.net> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Also, does anyone know where to get pens and plotter rolls for this > thing? If we're talking about a similar type of gizmo here, there is a US company called Alltronics (www.alltronics.com) that currently offers the following: ALPS PRINTER/PLOTTER PENS As used by Radio Shack, Atari, Commodore, Workslate and other printers and plotters. Set of four black pens. 92C084 One Set - $1.99 ...and to make things even stranger, they also have an Atari 8-bit plotter for sale too: ATARI 1020 COLOR PRINTER For all Atari 8-bit computers. Package includes: printer, power supply, software, pens, paper and interface cable. These are new units in factory sealed boxes. 94C037 $14.95 each -Chris From optimus at canit.se Sun May 20 19:11:20 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: HP 300 In-Reply-To: <200105200904.f4K94Ra00453@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <1747.541T1000T714973optimus@canit.se> jkunz skrev: >On 20 May, Iggy Drougge wrote: >[installing NetBSD or 4.4BSD or 4.3BSD-Reno on a hp300] >> Why 4.4BSD? Does it offer any advantage over NetBSD? >It is older. ;-) >It allways depends on your needs. > - If you want a modern *ix OS, NetBSD is what you want. NetBSD is a > nice, pure and small but complete Unix. It is my faforit OS. Not mine, but I've installed it on lots of machines. It's really an odd habit of mine, I collect the most disparate computers, then make them as similar as possible running the same OS. > - If you want the OS this machine was build with, HP-UX is wat you > want. HP-UX is a bit, hmm? I don't like it that much. I don't like what I've seen of it either, but I suppose that its hardware support is better than NetBSD. > - If you are interrested in the history of software, und / or you are > a BSD Unix geek like me, some old 4.x BSD is what you want. I have > several (ca. 30) *ix machines around here, most of them running > NetBSD. So it is very interresting to work with some historic BSD > releases on machines of the same vintage to see how things evolved. > An other reason could be that NetBSD (1.5) got a bit "bloated" and it > does not run that fast on a slower machine like a MicroVAX II or > hp320. But that does'nt bother you if you own a hp380. I supposed that NetBSD would be almost identical with (to?) 4.4BSD. I'm aware of the 1.5 bloat problem, and I think it's a serious matter for a multiplatform OS like NetBSD. The pmax port has been contaminated as well. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > well, maybe if it contained ChibiChibi-JarJar pairing.. Okay, so now I'm thinking about a threesome between ChibiChibi, Jar-Jar and Pikachu. You bastard. A. Jones From mranalog at home.com Sun May 20 18:47:34 2001 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: 'cross computer movers referrals Message-ID: <3B085796.D8C169F2@home.com> "Iggy Drougge" said: > Doug Coward skrev: > >"Bruce Ray" said > >> moving companies moving RETMA-racked equipment. > > > Are these really pre-1957 racks or is that a > >phrase of habit? > > Could you enlighten us rack nitwits as to what this business is about? Sorry, I have a really bad habit of boiling things down to as few words as possible. I really admirer people that can write emails that go on and on, for page after page. Anyway, before I get off the track, in 1924 a standards organization was formed called the Radio Manufacturers Association (RMA). In 1950, it became the Radio Television Manufacturers Association (RTMA). In 1953 it was renamed Radio Electronics Television Manufacturers Association (RETMA). And in 1957, it was renamed the Electronic Industries Association (EIA). Now, Bruce may have said RETMA out of habit when he meant EIA or these maybe racks from the mid-1950s. Why do I care? The mid-1950s were a time of rapid developments in the field of electronic analog computers. One company, Philbrick Researches developed an extensive line of power supplies, amplifiers, manifolds, and other analog computing components that made to be rack mounted. Cables interconnected the components in the rack. These cables used RETMA connectors. These connector are the diameter of and have pins the size of the base of a octal pin vacuum tube. Of course the pin spacing is different. I have a number of these components, but the connector are difficult to find. That's why my ears always perk up when I read "RETMA". I'm just nosing around to see if there is a bin in back of some surplus store were I might find connectors like these. And if anyone comes across any racks that have a tag saying "GAP/R", I would be VERY interested. Regards, --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ========================================= From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun May 20 19:35:22 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: Weekend finds : carload of Commodore for $10 In-Reply-To: John Foust "Re: Weekend finds : carload of Commodore for $10" (May 20, 8:26) References: <4.3.2.7.0.20010520082446.00c86c80@pc> Message-ID: <10105210135.ZM16073@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 20, 8:26, John Foust wrote: > At 11:19 PM 5/19/01 -0400, Claude.W wrote: > >I grew up using Commodore equipement at home. > >1 Sun Mouse (what was that doing in there?) > > I seem to remember that a Sun mouse was quite similar > to an Amiga mouse. In particular, the ones that required > a reflective mouse pad were quite fashionable. Are you sure? AFAIK, all Amiga mice are dumb quadrature mice with two buttons, and their interface consists of 5V power, ground, four quadrature signals (2 for X and 2 for Y) and two button signals. A Sun mouse has a proprietary encoded interface that uses three (or four?) wires. I suppose you could rig one up to a serial port, if you wrote a suitable driver (might also need a level translator). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From optimus at canit.se Sun May 20 21:27:38 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: EtherNEA Message-ID: <371.541T1900T2075489optimus@canit.se> Here's an interesting link for the Atari buffs out there: http://home.nexgo.de/thomas.redelberger/prj/atari/ethernea -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. We have support for the PMAGC-B's on pmax right? That is a PixelVision based card right? I see Bt 463, that chip looks bigger than the 21164! Just looking at it makes me want to write an Xserver! Chris Tribo, NetBSD/pmax From optimus at canit.se Sun May 20 21:26:51 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: Weekend finds : carload of Commodore for $10 In-Reply-To: <10105210135.ZM16073@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <1220.541T2550T2066463optimus@canit.se> Pete Turnbull skrev: >On May 20, 8:26, John Foust wrote: >> At 11:19 PM 5/19/01 -0400, Claude.W wrote: >> >I grew up using Commodore equipement at home. >> >1 Sun Mouse (what was that doing in there?) >> >> I seem to remember that a Sun mouse was quite similar >> to an Amiga mouse. In particular, the ones that required >> a reflective mouse pad were quite fashionable. >Are you sure? AFAIK, all Amiga mice are dumb quadrature mice with two >buttons, If you'd ever dare take away my third button, I'd make the rest of your life very short and painful, Peter. =) > and their interface consists of 5V power, ground, four quadrature >signals (2 for X and 2 for Y) and two button signals. Pin 5 takes a third button if you have one. Many mice do. >A Sun mouse has a >proprietary encoded interface that uses three (or four?) wires. I suppose >you could rig one up to a serial port, if you wrote a suitable driver >(might also need a level translator). Now, there's a funny project: removing all the encoding circuitry and rewiring the Sun mouse in order to make it an Amiga compatible quadrature mouse! -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Die Malerei ist stumme Poesie, die Poesie blinde Malerei. --- Leonardo da Vinci From optimus at canit.se Sun May 20 20:40:18 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: Weekend finds : carload of Commodore for $10 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010520082446.00c86c80@pc> Message-ID: <824.541T900T1604253optimus@canit.se> John Foust skrev: >At 11:19 PM 5/19/01 -0400, Claude.W wrote: >>I grew up using Commodore equipement at home. >>1 Sun Mouse (what was that doing in there?) >I seem to remember that a Sun mouse was quite similar >to an Amiga mouse. In particular, the ones that required >a reflective mouse pad were quite fashionable. I can't find anything in common between a Sun and an Amiga mouse, at least not the types 3 and 4. They're very different superficially, and the Suns use a serial protocol whereas the Amigas use quadrature. The only connection I can find would be that optical mice were en vogue on the Amiga and standard on the SUNs, long before M$ and the PC world "discovered" it. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Vi m?ste vara r?dda om varandra - det ?r det enda reciproka pronomen vi har. From jpero at sympatico.ca Sun May 20 17:17:30 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: Sell or trade 90 XP parts to flog with. In-Reply-To: References: <20010518040709.ORDX15234.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <20010521021443.XJLF27183.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Parting out basic -xKx IBM PS/2 90 XP. Too heavy to ship intact. Condition is VERY CLEAN and like new on all parts. Was pulled down working NT 4.0 workstation. Pair of memory risers (no ram) and black clip also used to hold ferrite bead for scsi. It is later version so no problems there, met the ECA recall. Processor complex card -xKx w/ DX2 66 and heatsink attached not DX33 and 256K cache daugtherboard. Blue shround included for direct air through complex and cache, that is required because both parts runs hot typical for these. ROM is later version for HD up to 4GB instead of 1GB, still have old ROM for it. Planar (motherboard) w/ 512K vram installed, all socketed. PSU, a brace w/ thumbscrew and 3 screws for it. Heaviest part of all. Keep that in mind on shipping. Pair of brown strips w/ 4 screws. It will break if someone forces open that top cover. The hooks is inside that brown strips to engage the top cover. Also I have top cover as well w/ bezels installed, it is for a floppy and one blank bezels. One RF screen tin sheet partially covers the upper, right opening. Brown structure to hold scsi cable, cards, partially insolates motherboard (slots area) from bottom pan, has 2 screws for bottom and two screws w/ washers for 90mm fan (not included). That's where blue deflector is held. Spreaker and power switch, LED in a structure w/ cable attached w/ one screw. 1.44MB floppy with rail (FRU: 64F0162), cable for it. Busmastering SCSI 32bit MCA w/ 512K and interal scsi cable w/ ferrite bead. Card is 85F0063 and ROM is F2244/F2245 for handling large capacity drives. Terminator pack installed. 3 rubber feets. Fourth one was missing when I got that computer. Pile of black screws for that PS/2 machine. Offer small cash, you claim what you want and you pay shipping for any of these parts, you got it. First one to claim is first served. Or trades, I pay shipping out to you on parts you pay shipping parts I wanted: wants: Mac parts like Nubus or LC ethernet and doodads for Mac. Cheers, Wizard From jpero at sympatico.ca Sun May 20 17:17:30 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: The computer has been destrunked successfully. In-Reply-To: References: <20010518040709.ORDX15234.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <20010521021448.XJLJ27183.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Thanks all, All that stuff you suggested was wonderful and l'll keep in mind for next time I need them will seek out specialized cleaning supplies shop. Mac II PSU was done, remember to blow excess dust off and remove a relay on that thing before dousing with isopropanol. All other PSU parts was brushed and scubbed with paper towels, windex and alcohol. Put together that heavy thing don't forget to solder relay back in. The case bottom, simply placed in bathtub and sprayed down with windex, blasting into all vents openings both sides. Till it is soaking wet everywhere and dirty stuff running into drain hole. Rinse off with hot water carefully let it run through vents and do it 2 or 3 times. Final rinse with 99% alcohol into everything to dry it out and put that reeking case outside till alcohol exvaporates, run the bath vent to get bath aired. Top cover I used lots of cotton swabs, paper towels, windex and alcohol. When done, I took bottom case back in and gave it final scrub with alcohol to remove stubborn film inside and out. Motherboard reeks of stink too so I gave it good swabbing down with alcohol. Came up black (that's some mildew) and brown is mild smoker or outside dust. Ditto to all parts for mounting drives. Ok now, only faint vaguely electronic w/ traces of mildew smell from PSU. Very tedious I tell u, please try don't store stuff in uncontrolled climate storage, next to water tank or boiler that could leak or basement. That's how stink and rust get started and run away from heavy chain-smoker's computers. No way to get it off except put it on fire or serious chemicals. Freon stuff can do that easily but like I said before it was banned. Cheers, Wizard From claudew at videotron.ca Sun May 20 21:40:33 2001 From: claudew at videotron.ca (Claude.W) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: Saved from garbage truck : TRS80 Model II & disk system! Now keyboard and boot disk/software anyone? Message-ID: <00c101c0e19f$68a88c60$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> This is a lucky week for me. After the carload/motherload of Commodore stuff for $10 now this Model II working with Disk System! Spotted by a friend on the side of the street. Advised owner I would pass by and pick it up. I did. It works and quite restorable : no cracks, major missing parts or evidence someone played in it! I am in need of boot disks and software to try it out. It had one 8" disk in the computer drive and I get a BOOT ERROR TK message after the computer tries to boot (?) a solenoid seems to bring the head in close proxymity of the floppy twice after drive goes to outoor most track...and then I get the message. I suspect the disks in the drive is not a boot disk, disk bad or a floppy problem... Head was not moving so I moved the head stepper motor with power off. Step motor moved back to outside track at boot attempt. So that motor works... Disk says ACCOUNTS PAYABLE LABELS. Who knows if this should boot...... I am in need of a boot disk and a few software would be nice... I have also no keyboard. Does anyone know if a keyboard for a Model TRS80 model 2000 will work on this? I have one of those... I plenty to offer in trade or thank you gift. See trade list on my crappy web site...ask, I have more... Thanks for the help Claude http://computer_collector.tripod.com From allain at panix.com Sun May 20 21:36:35 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: news from the MIT Swap. References: <3B085796.D8C169F2@home.com> Message-ID: <00f001c0e19e$f595ee20$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> I didn't buy (most of) these things, but here's an FYI for people who haven't gone to MIT yet. Tektronix 4051 desktop graphics system (2K?x2K storage tube, tape), VGC: $100. I took this guys info down: akreider@atstake.com Nice! RS6K with 64/128MB of memory, AIX, 1G drive with Sony monitor: $70. HPIL Printer: $10. 19" racks $50. Plenty of Sparc including, yes, Sparc10. 28" disk platter on spindle. (I finally picked that one up) $40 "list" 30+ year old copies of 'Computer Design'; yesss. John A. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon May 21 02:11:27 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: Weekend finds : carload of Commodore for $10 In-Reply-To: "Iggy Drougge" "Re: Weekend finds : carload of Commodore for $10" (May 21, 3:26) References: <1220.541T2550T2066463optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <10105210811.ZM16243@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 21, 3:26, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Pete Turnbull skrev: > If you'd ever dare take away my third button, I'd make the rest of your life > very short and painful, Peter. =) Sorry, I'd never seen a 3-button mouse on an Amiga. Sounds reasonable enough. > >A Sun mouse has a > >proprietary encoded interface that uses three (or four?) wires. I suppose > >you could rig one up to a serial port, if you wrote a suitable driver > >(might also need a level translator). > > Now, there's a funny project: removing all the encoding circuitry and rewiring > the Sun mouse in order to make it an Amiga compatible quadrature mouse! There's a web page somewhere describing exactly how to do that for a Microsoft mouse. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From GOOI at oce.nl Mon May 21 04:28:10 2001 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: LA210 problem with the control lines Message-ID: Hi all. During the weekend I found some time to check the VT102 -> LA210 connection. The suggestion Tony made, was very good. Stupid that I didn't think of it. I connected a VT220 to the VT102 printer port using the BC22D cable. Then I sent characters to the VT220. The letter E showed up as a zero and some other characters. After that nothing appeared on the VT220 screen. It was locked up. Next I connected my Tek 465 to the transmit pin (#2) of the printer port on the VT102. When I do the printer port test (screen full of E's) and send that to the printer port it became obvious why the LA210 prints garbage. Pin #2 is rougly -19 Volts. When characters are sent there are only spikes visible with an amplitude of about 20 V. superimposed on the -19 V. I hope I did not damage the LA210 as the transmit signal with the spikes go to almost -40 V. Or am I making a measurement error? The pin #2 (transmit) on the VT102 printer port is only connected to the (high impedance) input of the oscilloscope. The ground of the Tek is connected to pin #7. Do I need a resistor between pin #2 and ground (#7)? Henk. > -----Original Message----- > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk [mailto:ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk] > Sent: donderdag 17 mei 2001 21:09 > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: LA210 problem with the control lines > > > > > Hi all. > > > > Yesterday I connected my LA210 Letterprinter to the > > printerport of a VT102. > > Both are set at 9600 Bd, 8 databits, no parity and 1 stopbit. > > However when I send some 5 characters from the VT102 to the > > printer, it prints many mirrored question marks and > > other 'strange' characters. > > Do you _know_ that the printer port on the VT102 is working correctly > (and at the right baud rate)? Try connecting another terminal > (or a PC running a terminal emulator program) in place of the LA210 > and see what happens. > > In many systems, the transmit and receive baudrates are > derived from the same crystal. and in some cases, particularly > printer ports, DEC used the same baud rate generator for the transmit > and receive clocks. > That means, of course, that you can;t select different transmit and > receive speeds, but that's rarely needed for a printer port. > > Now a loopback test checks the port against itself. So, particularly > in the latter case, it could be running at totally the wrong > baud rate and still pass the loopback test. You want to check against > something else, like a PC. > > > Okay, I thought, the baudrate setting, etc. is not correct. > But it is. > > These are the checks I have done so far. > > 1) The used cable is an original DEC BC22D-25. This cable > is mentioned in the LA210 Letterprinter User Guide. > > It's printing something, so the data leads must be the right way round. > And the handshake (control) lines are not important until you > can get the printer to print some characters correctly. > > > I do not understand the message "Control lines failed". > > It's a problem with what are normally called the handshake > lines (RTS, CTS, etc). Either you've not got the right loopback plug > wiring, or you've got a problem on the LA210 logic board. > > > I have no field maintenance print set of the LA210 .... > > Nor do I. I do have the LA100 printset somewhere which is > electrically very similar, though. > > -tony From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon May 21 04:57:31 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:38 2005 Subject: Where to buy Gorilla Banana printers? In-Reply-To: <480.538T1350T13055375optimus@canit.se> References: <200105181815.LAA10320@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <3B0902AB.31236.ECA8B58@localhost> > Cameron Kaiser skrev: > >[Iggy] > >> >Hi Doug, > >> > >> Hi, Dorothy. My name is not Doug. Please shut up. > >Got up on the wrong side of the power switch again this morning? > I'm allergic to repitition. If I ever encounter something more than once, it > must go. So you don't like todays music either ? :) SCNR H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon May 21 07:04:35 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: Saved from garbage truck : TRS80 Model II & disk system! Now keyboard and boot disk/software anyone? In-Reply-To: <00c101c0e19f$68a88c60$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> Message-ID: <3B092073.14003.F3EDFDD@localhost> > This is a lucky week for me. After the carload/motherload of Commodore stuff > for $10 now this Model II working with Disk System! >[...] > I have also no keyboard. Does anyone know if a keyboard for a Model TRS80 > model 2000 will work on this? I have one of those... Well I had the storry going the other way ... A Mod 2 keyboard, but no computer ... > I plenty to offer in trade or thank you gift. See trade list on my crappy > web site...ask, I have more... > http://computer_collector.tripod.com Maybe a nice page, but hard to get there ... The Domain name is invalid, so I can't resolve it and get your page... I don't know what's up but it seams like it's already time to dump even the most simple RFCs, so the suit boys can buld their privat ($$$ coin operated $$$) networks. I have to stop here before I get _REALY_ upset. Please see RFC 1034 Section 3.5 (DNS Name Syntax - also in RFC 1035, whre the fin paragraph "While the implementor is free to violate these conventions WITHIN HIS OWN SYSTEM, he must observe these conventions in ALL behavior observed from other hosts" was added) and several Oter RFCs (852 ??? I'm not shure by now). And for the simple minds (Read tell this the jerks at Tripod) NO OTHER CHARACTERS THAN A TO Z AND 0 TO 9 AND HYPHEN (-). Geeee ... for the sake of a working network, kick 'em into a lunar orbit. Gruss H. P.S.: No cable with the keyboard. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Mon May 21 07:21:37 2001 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: Odd connectors (was: 'cross computer movers referrals) In-Reply-To: <3B085796.D8C169F2@home.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 May 2001 16:47:34 -0700 Doug Coward wrote: > Cables interconnected the components in the rack. These > cables used RETMA connectors. These connector are the > diameter of and have pins the size of the base of a > octal pin vacuum tube. Of course the pin spacing is > different. I have a number of these components, but > the connector are difficult to find. My quest for an odd connector is a little different... I have a Tektronix RF signal generator with a GR-874 connector. It's hermaphrodite, in other words, it's both male and female -- I only have one of them, so I can't really explain how they connect up! Now, I've discovered by a chat with my uncle (who's an amateur radio enthusiast in Dayton, Ohio) that the "GR" stands for General Radio. But I'm not really any closer to finding a connector to get the RF from sig-gen to circuit! Photo of sig-gen: http://www.gifford.co.uk/~coredump/tek2.jpg -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 21 07:29:46 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: Odd connectors (was: 'cross computer movers referrals) In-Reply-To: Odd connectors (was: 'cross computer movers referrals) (John Honniball) References: <3B085796.D8C169F2@home.com> Message-ID: <15113.2618.492515.575337@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 21, John Honniball wrote: > My quest for an odd connector is a little different... I > have a Tektronix RF signal generator with a GR-874 > connector. It's hermaphrodite, in other words, it's both > male and female -- I only have one of them, so I can't > really explain how they connect up! The "GR" (General Radio) sexless connector is pretty common in really high-frequency stuff, but not quite as common as other (better-built, more expensive) sexless constant-impedance connectors such as the APC-7 and APC-3.5. What sort of connector are you trying to get to? -Dave McGuire From jpl15 at panix.com Mon May 21 07:58:04 2001 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: Odd connectors (was: 'cross computer movers referrals) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is a very well-used connector from 40 years back... you can still find them languishing in the bigger surplus shops. But they are expensive to buy new (if you can find one new). The good news is, that the center element in the connector is the standard 'banana' plug size, and in fact the 'banana' connector, especially the dual version, is also known as a GR connector.. and yes it gets confused with the older, full shielded, constant-impedance one that is on your generator. So, just prepare a cable from 50 Ohm coax of good make, use RG 58 or similar (NOT 75 Ohm TV cable!!) attach a single banana plug to the center conductor of the cable, and attach a (short as possible) lead with an alligator clip to the shield of said cable. Insert the plug into the center of the GR connector, and clip the shield wire to the outer shell of the GR connector. Terminate the other end of the cable in the connector of your choice, or do like I always did and just use the center for a probe... ;} no, really... terminate the other end in a BNC for maximum flexibility... you could buy a good-quality 50 Ohm BNC-to-BNC cable and cut off one end to attach the banana plug and spring clip. This will get you up and running very well, and also allow you time to scrounge for a 'proper' cable. Hope this helps... Cheers John From jfoust at threedee.com Mon May 21 09:02:50 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: Weekend finds : carload of Commodore for $10 In-Reply-To: <10105210135.ZM16073@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <4.3.2.7.0.20010520082446.00c86c80@pc> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010521085403.01d4b700@pc> At 12:35 AM 5/21/01 +0000, you wrote: >Are you sure? AFAIK, all Amiga mice are dumb quadrature mice with two >buttons, and their interface consists of 5V power, ground, four quadrature >signals (2 for X and 2 for Y) and two button signals. A Sun mouse has a >proprietary encoded interface that uses three (or four?) wires. I suppose >you could rig one up to a serial port, if you wrote a suitable driver >(might also need a level translator). I remember that Dale Luck, one of the original Amiga engineers, sold a mirror-pad mouse, and I thought I remember him telling me it was actually a Sun-compatible mouse. Of course, this would mean compatible with Suns as of 1986 or earlier, and not today's. I'll readily accept that my memory of this could be faulty. Perhaps a better question would be "Circa 1986, which off-the-shelf mouse technologies were compatible with the Amiga mouse?" I have an original GfxBase optical mouse on my A2000. The bottom says "Mouse Systems - Manufactured by MSC Technologies, Fremont, CA, etc. Model M4. MSC 40215-001/B S/N MSC CZ097242". - John From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon May 21 09:57:55 2001 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: Dayton Hamvention report In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010521145755.81608.qmail@web9506.mail.yahoo.com> --- John Cook wrote: > I was able to hit the Hamvention myself today. The item of the day was > definitely the 486 laptop. I saw tons of these, as well as its close > cousin, the 386 laptop. Most were waaaay overpriced. > Not a lot of great classic hardware around, but I did see many older > Sparcstation boxes. I didn't get around enough in the rain to see any, which is a shame, because my SPARC-LX died in a recent thunderstorm (SCSI controller flaked out) and I had to replace it with a SPARC-Classic I fortunately picked up at the local University surplus recently for $5 (16Mb RAM, no disk). I did see one guy who got a pair of SPARC-5s for $175. I'd've bought them if I'd gotten there first. I'm casually looking for something in a sun4m or sun4u for <$500. > Also of interest... an Apple II made especially for Bell & Howell with drive > (also passed, $350!). Saw that. Gawked, laughed and passed on... > I did pick up a nice Commodore drive -- the MSD SD-2, $20. Saw that, too. Decided I didn't need it as much as I needed the money. > All in all it was a good time, though. I just like looking at all that old > stuff and wondering what the heck it does! :) That's my favorite part. I just wish I had been able to spend more time this weekend there. I had to cut my time short for a pressing engagement elsewhere. :-( -ethan ===== Visit "The Seventh Continent" http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon May 21 11:15:18 2001 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: Weekend finds : carload of Commodore for $10 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010520082446.00c86c80@pc> Message-ID: <20010521161518.99208.qmail@web9501.mail.yahoo.com> --- John Foust wrote: > At 11:19 PM 5/19/01 -0400, Claude.W wrote: > >I grew up using Commodore equipement at home. > >1 Sun Mouse (what was that doing in there?) > > I seem to remember that a Sun mouse was quite similar > to an Amiga mouse. In particular, the ones that required > a reflective mouse pad were quite fashionable. You could get Mouse Systems optical mice for more than just Sun equipment, but they were ubiquitous for years with the Type 4 keyboard (Type 5 mice are rounder, have purple accessorizing and, IIRC, use a different mouse pad). If your optical mouse has a DIN-8, it's probably for a Sun. If it has an Amiga connector, it's probably for an Amiga. I think I saw a Mouse Systems optical mouse this weekend at Dayton with a DB-25 on it, for PeeCee. -ethan ===== Visit "The Seventh Continent" http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon May 21 11:24:02 2001 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: Weekend finds : carload of Commodore for $10 In-Reply-To: <10105210811.ZM16243@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20010521162402.42120.qmail@web9503.mail.yahoo.com> --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > > Now, there's a funny project: removing all the encoding circuitry and > > rewiring the Sun mouse in order to make it an Amiga compatible quadrature > mouse! > > There's a web page somewhere describing exactly how to do that for a > Microsoft mouse. I've seen that with a MicroSoft Bus Mouse - you wack off the funny 8-pin MS connector and stick on a nine-pin Amiga connector and you are done. I haven't seen anyone attempt to convert a serial mouse to raw quadrature. I suppose it could be done. -ethan ===== Visit "The Seventh Continent" http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From EsterquestDF at Npt.NUWC.Navy.Mil Mon May 21 11:47:01 2001 From: EsterquestDF at Npt.NUWC.Navy.Mil (Esterquest David F NPRI) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: H89 Computer needs good home Message-ID: <1DB6479930CBD1119BD60001FA7E8657C5EE8C@NPRI54EXC06.NPT.NUWC.NAVY.MIL> I have the computer, dual 8-inch drives, and loads of software. I also have an H8 system. I also have the HUG magazines. Is there any interest??? I can be reached at EsterquestDF@Npt.NUWC.Navy.mil Regards, From dittman at dittman.net Mon May 21 12:27:18 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: H89 Computer needs good home In-Reply-To: <1DB6479930CBD1119BD60001FA7E8657C5EE8C@NPRI54EXC06.NPT.NUWC.NAVY.MIL> from "Esterquest David F NPRI" at May 21, 2001 12:47:01 PM Message-ID: <200105211727.f4LHRIQ27133@narnia.int.dittman.net> > I have the computer, dual 8-inch drives, and loads of software. I also have an H8 system. I also have the HUG magazines. > > Is there any interest??? I'd like both the H89 and the H8. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From cgoggans at counterpane.com Mon May 21 12:54:44 2001 From: cgoggans at counterpane.com (Chris Goggans) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: Intergraph? Message-ID: <200105211753.MAA05333@opal.tseinc.com> Hello... I've somehow managed to acquire a few Intergraph workstations in my lab. I've got a 2000, a 2400, and a 6100. I'm looking for install media for the Clipper UNIX that ran on these machines. Intergraph doesn't seem to know/care/remember anything about CLiX. Does anyone have any ideas where I might track media down?? Thanks, ->Chris From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon May 21 13:17:02 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: Weekend finds : carload of Commodore for $10 In-Reply-To: Ethan Dicks "Re: Weekend finds : carload of Commodore for $10" (May 21, 9:24) References: <20010521162402.42120.qmail@web9503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10105211917.ZM16579@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 21, 9:24, Ethan Dicks wrote: > --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > I've seen that with a MicroSoft Bus Mouse - you wack off the funny 8-pin > MS connector and stick on a nine-pin Amiga connector and you are done. I > haven't seen anyone attempt to convert a serial mouse to raw quadrature. > I suppose it could be done. Too easy :-) The page I saw described removing the serial controller from a mouse, and wiring straight to the quadrature connections. http://members.tripod.com/~ilkerf/chard/pc64mice.txt -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon May 21 13:08:48 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: Saved from garbage truck : TRS80 Model II & disk system! Now keyboard and boot disk/software anyone? In-Reply-To: "Hans Franke" "Re: Saved from garbage truck : TRS80 Model II & disk system! Now keyboard and boot disk/software anyone?" (May 21, 14:04) References: <3B092073.14003.F3EDFDD@localhost> Message-ID: <10105211908.ZM16563@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 21, 14:04, Hans Franke wrote: > > http://computer_collector.tripod.com > > Maybe a nice page, but hard to get there ... The Domain name is > invalid, so I can't resolve it and get your page. I've had this problem with Claude's pages before (and some others). I even mailed him about it a while ago. However, I worked out that the alternative is http://members.tripod.com/computer_collector/ (the underscore is legal in the directory name, just not in the domain name or hostname). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon May 21 13:36:29 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: Saved from garbage truck : TRS80 Model II & disk system! Now keyboard and boot disk/software anyone? In-Reply-To: <10105211908.ZM16563@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: "Hans Franke" "Re: Saved from garbage truck : TRS80 Model II & disk system! Now keyboard and boot disk/software anyone?" (May 21, 14:04) Message-ID: <3B097C4D.10176.10A5AD13@localhost> > On May 21, 14:04, Hans Franke wrote: > > > http://computer_collector.tripod.com > > Maybe a nice page, but hard to get there ... The Domain name is > > invalid, so I can't resolve it and get your page. > I've had this problem with Claude's pages before (and some others). I even > mailed him about it a while ago. However, I worked out that the > alternative is > http://members.tripod.com/computer_collector/ > (the underscore is legal in the directory name, just not in the domain name > or hostname). Thank you very much Pete. I was already so into bitch mode that I completely forgot to look for a work around. I's just that I have a problem to belive that someone invests a lot of work into webpages (or whatever) and then uses tools (and/or names) which again cut of most of the audience. I had a similar discusion with someone who did a collectors list using MS rubbish ... a simple 1 page table extended to several hundreds K of HTMLish junk - A list which could have been easy maintained in Notepad. I tried to show some ways to reduce it by a factor of 3 to 10 without loosing the fancy formating - only to her 'and where's the difference ? It looks like before'. (This is not ment as a reference to Claude his pages are sleak - slim build and even with Lynx accessable) I guess I should take it less personal ... Ciao Hans P.S.: The example about the page size is true ... there is a generation of collectors ahead who don't know anything about the ideas behind the prety plasic boxes. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon May 21 13:53:06 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: Picture (was : Saved from garbage truck : TRS80 Model II & disk system! Now keyboard and boot disk/software anyone?) In-Reply-To: <10105211908.ZM16563@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: "Hans Franke" "Re: Saved from garbage truck : TRS80 Model II & disk system! Now keyboard and boot disk/software anyone?" (May 21, 14:04) Message-ID: <3B098032.4168.10B4E38B@localhost> BTW: on Claudes page there is a nice picture titled: "Hard Disk rack and several disks in there...no idea on the model..." http://members.tripod.com/computer_collector/pics/1960s/hdiskplt.jpg To me it looks a bit like an IBM 1301 Disk drive ... remember ? The first ever commercial disk unit ... whooping 280.000.000 characters and up to 3 access arms, the size of an industrial robot :)) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 21 13:19:55 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: Weekend finds : carload of Commodore for $10 In-Reply-To: <1220.541T2550T2066463optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at May 21, 1 03:26:51 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 805 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010521/4ae7d963/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 21 13:24:22 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: Weekend finds : carload of Commodore for $10 In-Reply-To: <10105210811.ZM16243@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at May 21, 1 07:11:27 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 593 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010521/6c0ee435/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 21 13:34:09 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: LA210 problem with the control lines In-Reply-To: from "Gooijen H" at May 21, 1 11:28:10 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2028 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010521/257516bb/attachment.ksh From mac at Wireless.Com Mon May 21 14:22:23 2001 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: Picture (was : Saved from garbage truck : TRS80 Model II & disk system! Now keyboard and boot disk/software anyone?) In-Reply-To: <3B098032.4168.10B4E38B@localhost> Message-ID: That looks like a RAMAC to me. Was its number "1301" ? -Mike On Mon, 21 May 2001, Hans Franke wrote: > Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 20:53:06 +0200 > From: Hans Franke > Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Picture (was : Saved from garbage truck : TRS80 Model II & disk > system! Now keyboard and boot disk/software anyone?) > > > BTW: on Claudes page there is a nice picture titled: > "Hard Disk rack and several disks in there...no idea on the model..." > http://members.tripod.com/computer_collector/pics/1960s/hdiskplt.jpg > > To me it looks a bit like an IBM 1301 Disk drive ... remember ? > The first ever commercial disk unit ... whooping 280.000.000 characters > and up to 3 access arms, the size of an industrial robot :)) > > Gruss > H. > > -- > VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen > http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon May 21 14:14:20 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: References: <3B0507E4.32143.9A0FC50@localhost> from "Hans Franke" at May 18, 1 11:30:44 am Message-ID: <3B09852C.12517.10C85266@localhost> > > AFAIR you also have to use either 'adaptor plugs - or fit a new pwower > > cable, since the Sorcerer had a fixed one. And there is nothing more > > stupid in the world of power transmission than these plugs ... > Or cut off the existing plug and fit a nice, UK mains plug. Which I would > do anyway, since like you I regard mains adapter plugs to be the > invention of the devil. Could we agree on a fine DIN plug ? :)) I know, you are more toward the practical usage. I'm a bit less hands on. > > Unless the PS is already switchable and there is a Kaltgeraetestecker > > (no idea how these inlet connectors are called in english, where the > > power cord is detatchable) I always keep the original condition - for > > the short time I play around with a specific unit (seldom more than a > > few weeks) a stepdown transformer is a fine solution. > Thing is, while I have a step-down transformer, I keep it for testing US > devices before converting them, and for running things that can't be > converted (either they have 110V motors in them, or they have a > transformer with special characteristics, like some battery charger > modules). I don't want to 'tie up' the transformer running a computer > that can be trivially converted by resoldering a couple of connections > inside. I use my machines, so ease of plugging them in, and a safe way to > do so (no 'adapter plugs' :-)) is a lot more important to me than having > the original mains cable. I can understand your intention quite good ... still until today I never needed a second transformer ... just sometimes an extendsion cord with multiple outlets was needed. After all, there's still my power supply project waiting to be finished ... a 'cable channel' with outlets for all mayor countries for 220V and 110V - inclusive a _right_ dimensioned transformer :) And eventualy also including 60 Hz ... some motors require 60 Hz, and maybe faster to build than to get the replacement parts to switch them to 50 Hz operation. Anyway. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon May 21 14:24:40 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: Picture (was : Saved from garbage truck : TRS80 Model II & disk system! Now keyboard and boot disk/software anyone?) In-Reply-To: References: <3B098032.4168.10B4E38B@localhost> Message-ID: <3B098798.10655.10D1C9CC@localhost> > That looks like a RAMAC to me. Was its number "1301" ? A disk drive with up to 3 heads on seperate 'robots' accessing the disks. It was manufactured from 1961 until 1970, for the IBM 1410, 7070, 7074 and some other large IBM systems at this time. Up to 5 units could be controled by one system and each unit could be shared between two systems - the desity was dependant on the host system ... basicly it was the follow up to the RAMAC system, as a general solution. IIRC the RAMAC cas was smaler and had complete transparent doors. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From foo at siconic.com Mon May 21 13:38:57 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: Intergraph? In-Reply-To: <200105211753.MAA05333@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 May 2001, Chris Goggans wrote: > I've somehow managed to acquire a few Intergraph workstations in my lab. > I've got a 2000, a 2400, and a 6100. > > I'm looking for install media for the Clipper UNIX that ran on these machines. > > Intergraph doesn't seem to know/care/remember anything about CLiX. > > Does anyone have any ideas where I might track media down?? Wow, an LODer on ClassicCmp. How quaint :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From mark_k at iname.com Mon May 21 15:45:47 2001 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: (OT) Acorn RiscPC 600 Message-ID: Hi, I picked up an Acorn RiscPC 600 base unit the other day, my first Archimedes- type Acorn machine. Anyway, I have a few questions. Perhaps someone can point me to a decent web site about the Acorn machines? - I'm assuming the RiscPC 600 uses an Archimedes-type mouse. This should not be a major problem, as a simple pin-to-pin adapter should allow a three- button Amiga mouse to be connected. - Can I use a PS/2 type PC keyboard, or is a custom Acorn keyboard needed? - Before powering it up, I want to remove the hard disk and create an image file of its contents. The CD-ROM drive needs to be removed in order to get to the hard disk. I can't see how to do that. Any ideas? -- Mark From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon May 21 14:51:06 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: HP 300 In-Reply-To: <1747.541T1000T714973optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <200105211951.VAA20091@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 21 May, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> - If you want a modern *ix OS, NetBSD is what you want. NetBSD is a >> nice, pure and small but complete Unix. It is my faforit OS. > Not mine, Different people, different preferences. (Said the ape and bit into the soap. ;-) ) > but I've installed it on lots of machines. It's really an odd habit > of mine, I collect the most disparate computers, then make them as similar as > possible running the same OS. The same for me. It is amusing to se the same OS on a VAX, or Sun 3 and on an Alpha or the latest XX GHz hyper wintel crap PC. (And to see how reliable a 15 years old *ix machine is and how many PeeCees fail in the first 15 days or even 15 hours of there life.) [HP-UX <=> NetBSD] > I suppose that its hardware support is better than NetBSD. Of course. > I supposed that NetBSD would be almost identical with (to?) 4.4BSD. More or less. From the users point of view the systems are very similar. But especially inside the Kernel there are a lot of changes. > I'm aware of the 1.5 bloat problem, and I think it's a serious matter for a > multiplatform OS like NetBSD. The pmax port has been contaminated as well. This is the way life goes. NetBSD is a living system. It grows, new features like IPv6 (that will become mandatory), wscons (that is reasonible), RAIDframe, Softdeps ... are "bloating" the system. This is the price, that we have to pay for the improved functionality. I accept that this may be too much for the oldest machines im my collection. I don't expect from 2.11BSD on my PDP11 to support NFS, so do I accept that NetBSD 1.5 is a bit "slow" on a MicroVAX II with 5MB RAM. But the "bloat" problem is known to the NetBSD folks and a result is the tech-perform mailing list... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 21 15:17:02 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: <3B09852C.12517.10C85266@localhost> from "Hans Franke" at May 21, 1 09:14:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1501 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010521/882468ac/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 21 15:09:26 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: (OT) Acorn RiscPC 600 In-Reply-To: from "Mark" at May 21, 1 08:45:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 860 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010521/68b26bf3/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon May 21 16:29:42 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: Saved from garbage truck : TRS80 Model II & disk system! Now keyboard and boot disk/software anyone? In-Reply-To: "Hans Franke" "Re: Saved from garbage truck : TRS80 Model II & disk system! Now keyboard and boot disk/software anyone?" (May 21, 20:36) References: "Hans Franke" "Re: Saved from garbage truck : TRS80 Model II & disk system! Now keyboard and boot disk/software anyone?" (May 21 14:04) <3B097C4D.10176.10A5AD13@localhost> Message-ID: <10105212229.ZM17406@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 21, 20:36, Hans Franke wrote: > Thank you very much Pete. > > I was already so into bitch mode that I completely forgot > to look for a work around. I know the feeling only too well. I get extremely irritated at stupid things like this, myself. In fairness to Claude, I don't think he knew about the domain name rules. It seemed to be a complete surprise to him when I explained. I understand he originally asked for "computercollector" but the stupid ISP claimed it was too similar to something else but it was OK with the underscore (yeah, like the underscore makes all the difference). That ISP does what mine does: the "nice" personalised URL that looks like you have your own server is actually an alias to the canonical name, and the webserver is running virtual servers, translating xyzzy.tripod.com to members.tripod.com/xyzzy/. So the caonical URL is legal, but some droid at the ISP forgot (or didn't know) that the alias wasn't. > P.S.: The example about the page size is true ... there is a > generation of collectors ahead who don't know anything > about the ideas behind the prety plasic boxes. My pet hate is typified by pages that use screeds of Javascript to achieve what could have been does more easily and in 1/4th the space using plain sensible HTML -- and which fail to load properly on my machine because I normally have Javascript turned off for safety (it's a Unix box, so the risk is reduced, but you never know -- and I practically *never* turn Java on). For an example of the worst kind of page that needlessly complains when Javascript is disabled, see http://www.enterasys.com/ . It only fails because the error display gets in the way of the links! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon May 21 16:47:21 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: (OT) Acorn RiscPC 600 In-Reply-To: Mark "(OT) Acorn RiscPC 600" (May 21, 20:45) References: Message-ID: <10105212247.ZM17422@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 21, 20:45, Mark wrote: > I picked up an Acorn RiscPC 600 base unit the other day, my first Archimedes- > type Acorn machine. Nice find :-) I'm still looking for a Risc PC. I left Acorn about the time of the A540/R260 and those are the latest Acorn machines I have. > Anyway, I have a few questions. Perhaps someone can point me to a decent web > site about the Acorn machines? The FAQ is still updated and is at http://www.faqs.org/faqs/acorn/faq/part1/ > - I'm assuming the RiscPC 600 uses an Archimedes-type mouse. This should not > be a major problem, as a simple pin-to-pin adapter should allow a three- > button Amiga mouse to be connected. > > - Can I use a PS/2 type PC keyboard, or is a custom Acorn keyboard needed? I can't remember for sure when the changes were introduced, but I'm fairly sure the Risc PC uses a PS/2 keyboard but an Acorn mouse. If so, the keyboard connector will be 6-pin miniDIN (the older Acorn proprietary keyboards are also 6-pin miniDIN, though) and the mouse connector will be 9-pin miniDIN. > - Before powering it up, I want to remove the hard disk and create an image > file of its contents. The CD-ROM drive needs to be removed in order to get > to the hard disk. I can't see how to do that. Any ideas? Sorry, I don't know. I assume you mean how to remove the CD-ROM, not how to get the case open? I vaguely recall someone asking a similar question ages ago on comp.sys.acorn (or possibly comp.sys.acorn.hardware) so searching DejaNews (er, groups.google.com these days) might help. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon May 21 16:37:48 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Exidy Sorcerer" (May 21, 21:17) References: Message-ID: <10105212237.ZM17415@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 21, 21:17, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Or cut off the existing plug and fit a nice, UK mains plug. Which I would > > > do anyway, since like you I regard mains adapter plugs to be the > > > invention of the devil. > > > > Could we agree on a fine DIN plug ? :)) > > Anybody who uses an (audio-type) DIN plug for a mains connection is > likely to be a candidate for a Darwin award :-) I think Hans may be referring to a Schuko plug -- it's a DIN standard :-) > Often it's simpler (if the motor itself will run at 50Hz) just to make a > different drive pulley. Which is why all us computer collectors have a lathe in the workshop :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From philpem at btinternet.com Mon May 21 17:01:26 2001 From: philpem at btinternet.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: (OT) Acorn RiscPC 600 References: <200105212132.QAA09286@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <003201c0e241$961b5860$c8a87ad5@tsunami> > I picked up an Acorn RiscPC 600 base unit the other day, my first Archimedes- > type Acorn machine. Good for you. I've got one too - 16MBs of RAM, ARM610 CPU - and it runs rings round my Windoze box. > Anyway, I have a few questions. Perhaps someone can point me to a decent web > site about the Acorn machines? > > - I'm assuming the RiscPC 600 uses an Archimedes-type mouse. This should not > be a major problem, as a simple pin-to-pin adapter should allow a three- > button Amiga mouse to be connected. Yup. It uses an Acorn quadrature mouse. Available from www.castle.org.uk. > - Can I use a PS/2 type PC keyboard, or is a custom Acorn keyboard needed? Yes, the Acorn k/b is a standard PS/2 keyboard. > - Before powering it up, I want to remove the hard disk and create an image > file of its contents. The CD-ROM drive needs to be removed in order to get > to the hard disk. I can't see how to do that. Any ideas? There are two long L-shaped locking pins that hold the case together at the back and two near the front of the slice. Pull the back L-clips out and look for two circular clips with small (3mm or so) tags on. Rotate them and pull them out. Lift off the slice and you can get at the HD. It will probably be a standard IDE interface. If you really want to get help with this machine, try joining up to the newsgroups comp.sys.acorn, comp.sys.acorn.announce, comp.sys.acorn.apps and comp.sys.acorn.hardware. Chances are, someone there will be able to help. I'm also a regular in CSA, CSA.misc, CSA.hardware and CSA.programmer. If you want, I'll scan in the relevant part of my Risc PC Welcome Guide and upload it to my i-drive. -- Phil. http://www.philpem.f9.co.uk/ philpem@bigfoot.com From r.stek at snet.net Mon May 21 17:02:23 2001 From: r.stek at snet.net (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: RMA, RTMA, EIA and one more Message-ID: <000a01c0e241$b724fca0$0301a8c0@bob> After the RMA, RTMA and EIA published standards, aother industry association tried to make some sense of the various computer connectors. The retiring president James McDonald of the Electronics Industry Engineers' (EIE) tried unsuccessfully to promulgate yet another set of standards for computer inter-connects. This was known as old McDonald's EIE I/O. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010521/e3731519/attachment.html From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 21 17:10:40 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: RMA, RTMA, EIA and one more In-Reply-To: RMA, RTMA, EIA and one more (Bob Stek) References: <000a01c0e241$b724fca0$0301a8c0@bob> Message-ID: <15113.37472.554356.339977@phaduka.neurotica.com> While I did laugh my ass off when I read this, it took me a while to get to the actual text. 3826 bytes of embedded html/xml garbage to transfer 350 bytes of text. God I love Microsoft. -Dave McGuire On May 21, Bob Stek wrote [useless html/xml garbage removed]: > After the RMA, RTMA and EIA published standards, aother industry > association tried to make some sense of the various computer connectors. > The retiring president James McDonald of the Electronics Industry > Engineers' (EIE) tried unsuccessfully to promulgate yet another set of > standards for computer inter-connects. This was known as old McDonald's > EIE I/O. From philpem at btinternet.com Mon May 21 17:16:25 2001 From: philpem at btinternet.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #606 References: <200105212132.QAA09286@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <003701c0e243$af89be20$c8a87ad5@tsunami> Hi, > Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 22:40:50 +0100 (BST) > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: Sharp CE-515P plotter/printer - info? > > > > > Hi, > > I've just acquired a nice little Sharp plotter/printer (model CE-515P). > > I assume this is one of the little 4 colour units with the tiny ballpoint > pens on the carriage and paper about 4" wide. Yup. > The same mechanism was used by other companies (Oric printer, Tandy > CGP115, Commodore 1520, and so on). Many of them (but not the Commodore) > used the same microcontroller chip to operate the mechanism, and they all > respond to the same commands. Not my Sharp - it works with some of the graphics commands (not AXIS or Text Rotation, though), but not others, and it needs an ESC b to put it into graphics mode. > Somewhere I have the service manual for the mechanism (how to take it > apart and replace mechanical bits). No idea where you'd get spares from, > though. Anyone got a metal milling machine? > > It seems to be in reasonably good condition and it works (to some extent). > > The most common problem with these units is that the little pinion gears > on the stepper motor shafts break. They're force-fitted onto the shafts > and the crack. This causes them (a) to slip and (b) not to mesh properly > with the next gear in the train. Urk... > At one time you could get spares from Tandy National Parts (as a spare > for the CGP115 plotter), but not any more (and not for many years, > actually). I've heard various solutions involving binding them up with a > twist of wire (wound round the part of the pinion that doesn't mesh with > the next gear) so as to close the crack, but I am not sure how good these > solutions are. How about putting a bit of copper wire over the crack, squeezing the gear together, heating the wire up with a soldering iron, pushing the wire into the plastic and cutting off the excess? Or it might be possible to use a metal staple or two. Should be quite strong. > It might almost be worth trying to make some replacements from scratch. > You'd need a milling machine (or lathe with vertical slide) and a > dividing head. And you'd need to make a special cutter (probably a fly > cutter), since IIRC, these gears are a non-standard pitch. But it should > be possible. Oh. I wouldn't mind a set of metal gears for it if they're all plastic. Two of each should be enough. :-) > > Only problem is, I don't have a manual. Does anyone here know what the > > control codes for this little thing are? I also need the pinouts for the > > RS232C port on the back. > > How many pins on the RS232 port. And is it known to be RS232? Many of these > plotters have a parallel interface on a strange connector (such as a 0.1" > header plug). The standard microcontroller implements a parallel > interface and 3 wire RS232 (input data, ready, ground) at 600 baud. It's a four pin DIN socket and it's labelled "RS-232C". > Here are the standard commands for these printers (assuming it does use > the normal microcontroller). > > It starts off in text mode. In this mode, characters are printed in the > way you'd expect, carriage return and/or line feed do what you'd expect > (there's a dip switch to select whether it automatically does linefeed on > carriage return). There are 2 other control codes to know about : > > 18 (decimal) : go into graphics mode Doesn't work, see above. > 29 (decimal) : Select the next pen Doesn't work - ESC 0 to ESC 3 work on mine. > In graphics mode, you send it printable commands to make it do things. > The main ones are : > > A go back to text mode Works, > Cn Select pen (0-3) Doesn't work - ESC 0-3 works, though. > D x,y... Draw from current point to x,y (absolute). You can specify > several points as D x1,y1,x2,y2,x3,y3.... > I Set origin to current pen position > H Move pen back to origin > J x,y Draw relative by x,y > M x,y Move pen (without drawing) to x,y (absolute) Work fine. > Ln Set line type to (0-15). Different forms of dashed line Haven't tried that yet. > Pstring Print character string (until CR received IIRC). Works. > Qn Set print direction to (0-3 = normal, down, reversed, up) Dowsn't work. > R x,y Move relative by x,y Works fine > Sn Set text size to n (0-63, larger numbers = larger text. 0 = 80 > cpl, 1 = 40 cpl) > Xa,n,d Draw axis. a=0 for Y, 1 for X. n = number of divisions, d = size > of division. None of those work. > That should get you started, assuming it's the standard controller chip. > > > > Also, does anyone know where to get pens and plotter rolls for this > > thing? > > No, but I wish I did. I have several of them, and even an electronic > 'typewriter' using a wider version of the same mechanism. I've just found a source for paper and pens. In Germany... And now onto the next mail... > Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 18:26:27 -0400 > From: Christopher Caldwell > Subject: Re: Sharp CE-515P plotter/printer - info? > > Philip Pemberton wrote: > > > Also, does anyone know where to get pens and plotter rolls for this > > thing? > > If we're talking about a similar type of gizmo here, there is a US > company called Alltronics (www.alltronics.com) that currently offers > the following: > > ALPS PRINTER/PLOTTER PENS > > As used by Radio Shack, Atari, Commodore, Workslate and other printers > and plotters. Set of four black pens. 92C084 One Set - $1.99 When I can get them for about 1 UK? exc. P&P, why bother? > ...and to make things even stranger, they also have an Atari 8-bit > plotter for sale too: > > ATARI 1020 COLOR PRINTER > > For all Atari 8-bit computers. Package includes: printer, power supply, > software, pens, paper and interface cable. These are new units in > factory sealed boxes. 94C037 $14.95 each Nice. -- Phil. http://www.philpem.f9.co.uk/ philpem@bigfoot.com From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon May 21 17:29:06 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: RMA, RTMA, EIA and one more In-Reply-To: <000a01c0e241$b724fca0$0301a8c0@bob> Message-ID: > After the RMA, RTMA and EIA published standards, aother industry > association tried to make some sense of the various computer connectors. > The retiring president James McDonald of the Electronics Industry > Engineers' (EIE) tried unsuccessfully to promulgate yet another set of > standards for computer inter-connects. This was known as old McDonald's > EIE I/O. Boo! Hiss! :) g. From jweder at telusplanet.com Mon May 21 17:25:04 2001 From: jweder at telusplanet.com (Joel Weder) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: H89 Computer needs good home In-Reply-To: <200105212132.QAA09286@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: Hi... I do have some interest. Having lost my old Heath catalogs I can't quite recall what the H89 is all about, but I wouldn't mind taking the H8. Please let me know what kind of $'s you're looking for, and what all is included. Thanks! p.s. I did try emailing you directly but I had it returned with an error message. I'll try again shortly. Joel A. Weder jweder@telusplanet.net 403-556-4020 From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon May 21 17:34:12 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: RMA, RTMA, EIA and one more In-Reply-To: <15113.37472.554356.339977@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <000a01c0e241$b724fca0$0301a8c0@bob> <15113.37472.554356.339977@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: > While I did laugh my ass off when I read this, it took me a while to >get to the actual text. 3826 bytes of embedded html/xml garbage to >transfer 350 bytes of text. God I love Microsoft. It didn't show up as HTML on Eudora and I generally keep HTML display turned on. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 21 17:40:34 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: RMA, RTMA, EIA and one more In-Reply-To: Re: RMA, RTMA, EIA and one more (Jeff Hellige) References: <000a01c0e241$b724fca0$0301a8c0@bob> <15113.37472.554356.339977@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <15113.39266.304391.434182@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 21, Jeff Hellige wrote: > > While I did laugh my ass off when I read this, it took me a while to > >get to the actual text. 3826 bytes of embedded html/xml garbage to > >transfer 350 bytes of text. God I love Microsoft. > > It didn't show up as HTML on Eudora and I generally keep HTML > display turned on. Well my mailer certainly didn't synthsize it, man... ;) -Dave McGuire From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 21 17:42:59 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: <10105212237.ZM17415@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at May 21, 1 09:37:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 742 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010521/addbfde9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 21 17:52:33 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #606 In-Reply-To: <003701c0e243$af89be20$c8a87ad5@tsunami> from "Philip Pemberton" at May 21, 1 11:16:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3493 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010521/d4cf1411/attachment.ksh From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon May 21 18:10:01 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: RMA, RTMA, EIA and one more In-Reply-To: <15113.39266.304391.434182@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <000a01c0e241$b724fca0$0301a8c0@bob> <15113.37472.554356.339977@phaduka.neurotica.com> <15113.39266.304391.434182@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: >On May 21, Jeff Hellige wrote: >> > While I did laugh my ass off when I read this, it took me a while to >> >get to the actual text. 3826 bytes of embedded html/xml garbage to >> >transfer 350 bytes of text. God I love Microsoft. >> >> It didn't show up as HTML on Eudora and I generally keep HTML >> display turned on. > > Well my mailer certainly didn't synthsize it, man... ;) LOL...wasn't suggesting it had Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From optimus at canit.se Mon May 21 18:26:01 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: Weekend finds : carload of Commodore for $10 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010521085403.01d4b700@pc> Message-ID: <1615.542T50T263495optimus@canit.se> John Foust skrev: >At 12:35 AM 5/21/01 +0000, you wrote: >>Are you sure? AFAIK, all Amiga mice are dumb quadrature mice with two >>buttons, and their interface consists of 5V power, ground, four quadrature >>signals (2 for X and 2 for Y) and two button signals. A Sun mouse has a >>proprietary encoded interface that uses three (or four?) wires. I suppose >>you could rig one up to a serial port, if you wrote a suitable driver >>(might also need a level translator). >I remember that Dale Luck, one of the original Amiga engineers, >sold a mirror-pad mouse, and I thought I remember him telling >me it was actually a Sun-compatible mouse. Of course, this >would mean compatible with Suns as of 1986 or earlier, and >not today's. Could anyone familiar with older (pre-3?) Suns confirm this? >I'll readily accept that my memory of this could be faulty. >Perhaps a better question would be "Circa 1986, which off-the-shelf >mouse technologies were compatible with the Amiga mouse?" None without rewiring. With rewiring, one could use most any mouse available back then. PC bus mice, Atari mice, pre-ADB Apple mice, C= 1351 mice, etc. >I have an original GfxBase optical mouse on my A2000. The bottom >says "Mouse Systems - Manufactured by MSC Technologies, Fremont, >CA, etc. Model M4. MSC 40215-001/B S/N MSC CZ097242". Mouse systems... Where have I heard that name? Didn't they make Sun mice? Yes, it seems so, I've got one here in a box of odd mice. It's a shame I've got no Sun to match. =) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Die Malerei ist stumme Poesie, die Poesie blinde Malerei. --- Leonardo da Vinci From optimus at canit.se Mon May 21 18:35:30 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: Weekend finds : carload of Commodore for $10 In-Reply-To: <20010521162402.42120.qmail@web9503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <840.542T1500T354917optimus@canit.se> Ethan Dicks skrev: >--- Pete Turnbull wrote: >> > Now, there's a funny project: removing all the encoding circuitry and >> > rewiring the Sun mouse in order to make it an Amiga compatible quadrature >> mouse! >> >> There's a web page somewhere describing exactly how to do that for a >> Microsoft mouse. >I've seen that with a MicroSoft Bus Mouse - you wack off the funny 8-pin >MS connector and stick on a nine-pin Amiga connector and you are done. I >haven't seen anyone attempt to convert a serial mouse to raw quadrature. >I suppose it could be done. There's a description at the NetBSD/atari page. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Does the same as the system call of that name. If you don't know what it does, don't worry about it. --Larry Wall in the perl man page regarding chroot(2) From optimus at canit.se Mon May 21 18:39:47 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: Weekend finds : carload of Commodore for $10 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1227.542T2350T396291optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >> Sorry, I'd never seen a 3-button mouse on an Amiga. Sounds reasonable >> enough. >A number of years ago, Maplin sold replacement mice for the ST and Amiga. >Both were quadrature-output devices (plain, TTL signals), with different >wiring to the DE9 socket. And IIRC, the Amiga one was 3 button and the ST >one 2 button. The ST can use 3-button mice as well, but the software support really isn't as extensive. >I used those mice (with a connector change) as replacement mice for my >Mac+ (2 button, buttons wired in parallel), Archimedes (3 button), >Amstrad PC2086 (2 button IIRC), and so on. I was mildly annoyed when >Maplin discontinued them and only sold PC-mice.... My 3-button mouse, manufacturer unknown (I think it's some kind of OEM construction, though) is really running on its last leg. The only thing which keeps it working is a big blob of tape in order to twist the cable in the right direction. It's rather obvious that I'm the absolute opposite of Tony when it comes to electronics, isn't it? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. /* And you'll never guess what the dog had */ /* in its mouth... */ --Larry Wall in stab.c from the perl source code From optimus at canit.se Mon May 21 18:56:56 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: Weekend finds : carload of Commodore for $10 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1487.542T2800T566757optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >One of the many projects on my 'to be hacked sometime' list is a >converter from a serial mouse to a quadrature mouse port. Basically a >microcontroller that accepts messages from a serial mouse on one side, >and toggles some port lines to give quadrature output waveforms on the other. >Last time I mentioned this on this list, I was told you could get such >interfaces commercially (I think it was mentioned that they were for the >Amiga, but I am not certain about that). Of course my reply, as ever, was >that I am not going to buy something that I can design myself :-). >I have no idea if such interfaces are still available, though. They still are. Typically, they have names like Mr. Mausiszja or Mr. Mysza. Power Computing, amongst others, sell them. Then there a bloke in New Zeeland, called Mario Becroft, who makes one for both the Atari and Amiga. There are similar devices for PS/2 keyboards, too. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Scandinavian countries, especially Sweden, [have] alarmed the more doctrinaire exponents of a revolutionary (as opposed to evolutionary) modern architecture by specializing in a cosy domesticity which appears to turn its back on many of modern architecture's spectacular achievements; not by reviving period styles, but by preferring traditional building techniques and materials and putting the highest value on charm of character and a close accord between building and landscape. J.M. Richards, Modern Architecture From optimus at canit.se Mon May 21 19:01:39 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1562.542T1950T615183optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >> > Or cut off the existing plug and fit a nice, UK mains plug. Which I would >> > do anyway, since like you I regard mains adapter plugs to be the >> > invention of the devil. >> >> Could we agree on a fine DIN plug ? :)) >Anybody who uses an (audio-type) DIN plug for a mains connection is >likely to be a candidate for a Darwin award :-) How about the Dragon PSU, which uses a D-9? I can imagine the horrified shreaks of hordes of PC users who unwittingly plug it into their "serial" ports (real serial ports don't use D-9 plugs, and if they do, the Dragon treatment is a fitting punishment). >> I can understand your intention quite good ... still until today I >> never needed a second transformer ... just sometimes an extendsion >> cord with multiple outlets was needed. After all, there's still my >> power supply project waiting to be finished ... a 'cable channel' >> with outlets for all mayor countries for 220V and 110V - inclusive >I've been thinking about making something like that, mostly to test >devices before I convert them, and for running things that can't easily >be converted, like wall-wart PSUs with odd output characteristics. I've got a US DECstation 5000/200 which refused to work off the wall outlets in my old flat, despite markings on the back saying that it ran on both 110V and 220V, so I just used a cheap transformer from the "international fleamarket". In my new flat, however, it works just fine without any adaptors. Could it be the lack of earth in the new outlets? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Mon May 21 19:08:03 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:39 2005 Subject: HP 300 In-Reply-To: <200105211951.VAA20091@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <1996.542T150T684095optimus@canit.se> jkunz skrev: >On 21 May, Iggy Drougge wrote: >>> - If you want a modern *ix OS, NetBSD is what you want. NetBSD is a >>> nice, pure and small but complete Unix. It is my faforit OS. >> Not mine, >Different people, different preferences. (Said the ape and bit into the >soap. ;-) ) >> but I've installed it on lots of machines. It's really an odd habit >> of mine, I collect the most disparate computers, then make them as similar >> as possible running the same OS. >The same for me. It is amusing to se the same OS on a VAX, or Sun 3 and >on an Alpha or the latest XX GHz hyper wintel crap PC. (And to see how >reliable a 15 years old *ix machine is and how many PeeCees fail in the >first 15 days or even 15 hours of there life.) Of course, 15 year-old PCs won't fail either. The machines which did fail in their first fifteen days are long gone, and that goes for all platforms. >> I'm aware of the 1.5 bloat problem, and I think it's a serious matter for a >> multiplatform OS like NetBSD. The pmax port has been contaminated as well. >This is the way life goes. NetBSD is a living system. It grows, new >features like IPv6 (that will become mandatory), wscons (that is >reasonible), RAIDframe, Softdeps ... are "bloating" the system. This is >the price, that we have to pay for the improved functionality. I accept >that this may be too much for the oldest machines im my collection. I >don't expect from 2.11BSD on my PDP11 to support NFS, so do I accept >that NetBSD 1.5 is a bit "slow" on a MicroVAX II with 5MB RAM. But the >"bloat" problem is known to the NetBSD folks and a result is the >tech-perform mailing list... Why should IPv6 be mandatory? Isn't that supposed to be backwards-compatible as far as end clients are concerned, and isn't it my business what I run on my network? And why shouldn't one expect NFS support from 2.2BSD? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Schont die Sockel, wenn ihr die Denkm?ler st?rzt. Sie k?nnten noch gebraucht werden. --- Stanislaw Jerzy Lec From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon May 21 18:14:55 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Exidy Sorcerer" (May 21, 23:42) References: Message-ID: <10105220014.ZM17571@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 21, 23:42, Tony Duell wrote: > Oh, that horrible thing.... Not fused Because each circuit is supposed to have its own breaker in the main box, and there would normally be very few outlets on one circuit, and many more circuits than we tend to have in the UK. My Schuko sockets are two to a breaker. > > Which is why all us computer collectors have a lathe in the workshop :-) > > Exactly... Well, not in the same workshop that I do electronic repairs > in, and certainly not where I run large hard disks (swarf and demountable > hard disks don't mix...). But certainly in _a_ workshop.... Mine is in the smae workshop. Not ideal, but I'm careful where I let the swarf go (metal swarf is quite heavy so it's not too hard) and where I lay disk packs. Now the arc welder is a different story. The spatter from that can go everywhere, so it's in the garage not the workshop/computer room. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon May 21 18:08:11 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: RMA, RTMA, EIA and one more In-Reply-To: Jeff Hellige "Re: RMA, RTMA, EIA and one more" (May 21, 18:34) References: <000a01c0e241$b724fca0$0301a8c0@bob> <15113.37472.554356.339977@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <10105220008.ZM17567@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 21, 18:34, Jeff Hellige wrote: > > While I did laugh my ass off when I read this, it took me a while to > >get to the actual text. 3826 bytes of embedded html/xml garbage to > >transfer 350 bytes of text. God I love Microsoft. > > It didn't show up as HTML on Eudora and I generally keep HTML > display turned on. Oh, it was definitley HTML. Encoded as "[ Attachment (multipart/alternative): 3829 bytes ]", so if you had HTML display turned off in Eudora, it probably just showed you the flat-ASCII version, which was there as well as the cruft. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From vance at ikickass.org Mon May 21 18:33:22 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Vance Dereksen) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: DEC Memory Message-ID: Anyone know where I can get MS02-CA RAMs for DECstations cheap? I need about 120 of them and I don't want to spend $7000+. Thanks. Peace... Sridhar From louiss at gate.net Mon May 21 18:37:51 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200105212337.TAA20135@smtp6.mindspring.com> On Mon, 21 May 2001 23:42:59 +0100 (BST), Tony Duell wrote: #> > Anybody who uses an (audio-type) DIN plug for a mains connection is #> > likely to be a candidate for a Darwin award :-) #> #> I think Hans may be referring to a Schuko plug -- it's a DIN standard :-) # #Oh, that horrible thing.... Not fused, and the earth is not certain to #mate first. Sorry, I'll stick to the good old BS1363 13A plug :-) # Just to get back to the topic and add an American point of view: The Exidy came with a detachable plug with two round pins, and with slots on the body where the ground attached. Obviously, this could not fit in a flat socket, but must require some sort of deep socket (I have no idea what you would call it). Here, I just attached a standard "3-prong" plug, the two flat prongs are 110 VAC, the round is ground. The power supply now works fine (thanks to Pete diagnosing a bad voltage regulator). We are still working on other problems. Louis From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 21 18:38:59 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: <1562.542T1950T615183optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at May 22, 1 01:01:39 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1892 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010522/40a870d7/attachment.ksh From norm.anheier at pnl.gov Mon May 21 18:51:31 2001 From: norm.anheier at pnl.gov (Anheier, Norman C Jr) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: Wanted: iAPX-432 Message-ID: <228C5EBB26701542946C14D5205AE6D5011B27A9@pnlmse08.pnl.gov> Anyone have an Intel iAPX-432 processor chip that they are willing to part with? If so, I would be grateful if you would reply. Thanks Norm Anheier norm.anheier@pnl.gov From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 21 18:48:27 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: <200105212337.TAA20135@smtp6.mindspring.com> from "Louis Schulman" at May 21, 1 07:37:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2318 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010522/7e216bab/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 21 18:53:01 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: <10105220014.ZM17571@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at May 21, 1 11:14:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1147 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010522/bf49de2a/attachment.ksh From optimus at canit.se Mon May 21 19:52:55 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: RMA, RTMA, EIA and one more In-Reply-To: <15113.37472.554356.339977@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <571.542T2750T1126115optimus@canit.se> Dave McGuire skrev: > While I did laugh my ass off when I read this, it took me a while to >get to the actual text. 3826 bytes of embedded html/xml garbage to >transfer 350 bytes of text. God I love Microsoft. And I love people who use M$ software. There has always been abnormally bad software, but never have there been so many using it. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. If you consistently take an antagonistic approach, however, people are going to start thinking you're from New York. :-) --Larry Wall to Dan Bernstein in <10187@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV> From optimus at canit.se Mon May 21 19:56:59 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: H89 Computer needs good home In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <675.542T2950T1166731optimus@canit.se> Joel Weder skrev: >Hi... Hello. >I do have some interest. Having lost my old Heath catalogs I can't quite >recall what the H89 is all about, but I wouldn't mind taking the H8. Please >let me know what kind of $'s you're looking for, and what all is included. >Thanks! I'm sorry, but I've never had any H8. Haven't even got the faintest what it is. >p.s. I did try emailing you directly but I had it returned with an error >message. I'll try again shortly. That's odd, but you must have emailed the wrong person. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't suck is probably the day they start making vacuum cleaners" - Ernst Jan Plugge From donm at cts.com Mon May 21 19:20:08 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: RMA, RTMA, EIA and one more In-Reply-To: <000a01c0e241$b724fca0$0301a8c0@bob> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 May 2001, Bob Stek wrote: > After the RMA, RTMA and EIA published standards, aother industry > association tried to make some sense of the various computer connectors. > The retiring president James McDonald of the Electronics Industry > Engineers' (EIE) tried unsuccessfully to promulgate yet another set of > standards for computer inter-connects. This was known as old McDonald's > EIE I/O. > LOVE it! Just watch out for `foot in mouth disease'. - don From optimus at canit.se Mon May 21 20:18:05 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2569.542T250T1383415optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >> >> Could we agree on a fine DIN plug ? :)) >> >> >Anybody who uses an (audio-type) DIN plug for a mains connection is >> >likely to be a candidate for a Darwin award :-) >> >> How about the Dragon PSU, which uses a D-9? I can imagine the horrified >Yes, but the dragon PSU output is relatively low voltage, not mains. It's >not going to be good for a PC serial port, but it's unlikely to do much >damage other than possibly killing the RS232 buffer ICs. Connecting mains >to a serial port is likely to do a lot of damage to the entire machine. What a pity. ^_- >Getting back to DIN plugs, I don't _like_ them being used for any form of >power connection, but many manufacturers did use them for low voltage >(<20V) power inputs. It is reasonably safe to do that, even if it can >prove unreliable in the end. Why not? I know that it doesn't latch very well, if that's your gripe. BTW, is there any "official" designation for the PSU plug used on the C128 and small Amigas? It's a kind of square DIN plug, but sourcing them isn't that easy. >> I've got a US DECstation 5000/200 which refused to work off the wall >> outlets in my old flat, despite markings on the back saying that it ran on >> both 110V and 220V, so I just used a cheap transformer from the >> "international fleamarket". In my new flat, however, it works just fine >> without any adaptors. Could it be the lack of earth in the new outlets? >Odd... No computer should ever assume that either side of the mains is >grounded, and thus the safety ground shouldn't make any different to the >working of the PSU (I assume the machine refused to power up at all). Are >you sure the mains voltage was the same in both cases (did you check it >with a voltmeter?) It did refuse to power up at all. Very queer. And why would the voltages change? It's not as if we're running 110V in this part of the town. >That said, if you really don't have earths on the outlets in your new >flat, sort the wiring out NOW, before an earth leak kills somebody. >Safety grounds are there for a good reason. My "sorting it out" would sooner kill me or someone else. No way that I am going to peek inside live wires, and besides, earthing the flat would require rebuilding the electric infrastructure of the entire complex. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Ed ecco un altro esempio in cui le sigle italiane e francesi sono uguali ... non avrei mai creduto di poter un giorno dire una cosa del genere, ma secondo me Crostina D'Avena canta meglio. Tacchan s?gar den franska signaturen till Creamy Mami From optimus at canit.se Mon May 21 20:32:01 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1289.542T50T1523215optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >> #> I think Hans may be referring to a Schuko plug -- it's a DIN >> standard :-) >> # >> #Oh, that horrible thing.... Not fused, and the earth is not certain to >> >> #mate first. Sorry, I'll stick to the good old BS1363 13A plug :-) >> # >> Just to get back to the topic and add an American point of view: The >> Exidy came with a detachable plug with two round pins, and with slots >> on the body where the ground attached. Obviously, this could not fit >That's the Schuko plug. It's the standard in Germany, and probably other >continental European countries. It's used in Scandinavia, too. Switzerland uses some other plug, whereas Italy uses much the same plug as the "Schuko", only with a third ground pin instead of the ground "clamps" in Germany. On many plugs, you can see a metal coated hole for such a pin. That way, the unearthed "Euro" connector works all over the place. I've no idea as to what French or Spanish plugs look like, though. BTW, Japanese plugs seem to look like US plugs, only without the earth pin. Is that really the case, and if so, is earth an unknown factor in the Orient? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. G? med i SUGA, Swedish Usergroup of Amiga! WWW: http://swedish.usergroup.amiga.tm/ BBS: 08-6582572, telnet://sua.ath.cx:42512 From optimus at canit.se Mon May 21 20:36:57 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: LANCE Message-ID: <422.542T2850T1566643optimus@canit.se> Where does one get an AMD LANCE ethernet controller nowadays? Preferably in a DIL (?) package. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. [E]xcept in the works of Gunnar Asplund, architect of the Stockholm Exhibition of 1930 and the Stockholm crematorium, Sweden has never contributed much to the revolutionary developments through which modern architecture made its initial impact on the world. J.M. Richards, Modern Architecture From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon May 21 20:07:48 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: FA: old computer sales and service video training tapes. Compaq Deskpro, Compaq Portable II, DEC Rainbow, AT&T 6300. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010521205641.00a05ec0@mailhost.intellistar.net> I'm still cleaning house and I've just finished listing a bunch of video tapes on E-bay. These tapes were for sales and/or service training for several of the old PCs, including the AT&T 6300, Compaq Portable II, Compaq Portable 286, Compaq Deskpro, Compaq Deskpro 286 and the DEC Rainbow 100 and 100+. There are also a bunch of various tapes from the old ComputerLand stores. All of these tapes were propriatary and were only supposed to be viewed by authorized dealers. Consequently they are very hard to find. These are top quality tapes and are very informative. Take a look; http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewListedItems&userid=rigdonj@intellistar.net. Joe From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Mon May 21 21:21:16 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: tape drives References: Message-ID: <3B09CD1C.712623BF@aurora.regenstrief.org> Tony Duell wrote: > > The commodore tape drive system apparently put a header at the start of each > > file. You could fast forward through the tape manually until you got to about > > Yes, most systems did that. The home computers using normal audio tapes > (that you had to position manually) generally had a header per file. The > But if you don't have automatic fast forward (and some way to judge the > approximate postiion of the tape automatically), then finding a > particular file is consists of rewinding the tape to the start and then > reading the tape (at normal speed) until you find the file you want. > Which, using one side of a C90 cassette, could take 45 minutes. This is > going to get boring fast. Oops, interesting conversation you have here. I used C90 cassettes or whatever in my datasette and I could position the thing quite easily using the mechanic position counter. Didn't you have that on your device? May be the PET 2001 didn't have a counter, but the datasette I got with my C=64 did have that counter. The counter wouldn't work accross two different devices, the one in school counted at different speed than the one I had at home ... but I suppose I could have found a conversion factor if need had been. Now, for the more modern times, a 2GB DAT tape doesn't have a counter and doesn't have a directory. But it has a start-of-file marker that you can fast forward to (at amazing speeds!). You can do the same backwards and on a per-block basis. On UNIX with "mt fsf $n" you can forward by $n number of files. I found it impossible to update a directory at the start of the tape, since each write would leave an end-of-tape-mark at the end so that the rest of the tape was lost. So, again I use the simple manually kept directory with a pencil and the tape cover/label. -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistent Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From jarkko.teppo at er-grp.com Tue May 22 00:46:58 2001 From: jarkko.teppo at er-grp.com (jarkko.teppo@er-grp.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: HP 300 In-Reply-To: <1996.542T150T684095optimus@canit.se>; from optimus@canit.se on Tue, May 22, 2001 at 01:08:03AM +0100 References: <200105211951.VAA20091@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1996.542T150T684095optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <20010522084658.A5261@mail.er-grp.com> On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 01:08:03AM +0100, Iggy Drougge wrote: > jkunz skrev: > > Of course, 15 year-old PCs won't fail either. The machines which did fail in > their first fifteen days are long gone, and that goes for all platforms. That's quite true. Though in the case of HP I don't think that they've ever failed:) The *best* computers I've seen/had/used so far. Not like Sparcs with those pesky idprom problems (I've got a 330 in need of surgery). > >This is the way life goes. NetBSD is a living system. It grows, new > >features like IPv6 (that will become mandatory), wscons (that is > >reasonible), RAIDframe, Softdeps ... are "bloating" the system. This is > > Why should IPv6 be mandatory? Isn't that supposed to be backwards-compatible > as far as end clients are concerned, and isn't it my business what I run on my > network? Way OT but as a fellow NAT-suffering european you ought to be cheering and jumping for IPv6. As always, your network is your network and I don't think that anybody cares if you ran the whole thing on top of serial muxes with multidrop slip encapsulating chaosnet and XNS but I want IPv6 on everything that I have:) Actually I just played my first ever IPv6 Quake-game last week with end-to-end native v6 only. I sucked.. and I was the only player. > And why shouldn't one expect NFS support from 2.2BSD? > hmm, the gains aren't worth it ? -- jht From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue May 22 04:16:56 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: RMA, RTMA, EIA and one more In-Reply-To: <15113.37472.554356.339977@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: RMA, RTMA, EIA and one more (Bob Stek) Message-ID: <3B0A4AA8.7022.13CBBF52@localhost> > While I did laugh my ass off when I read this, it took me a while to > get to the actual text. 3826 bytes of embedded html/xml garbage to > transfer 350 bytes of text. God I love Microsoft. Plain text over here ... or did you turn on some wired preferences ? Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue May 22 05:58:38 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: Sharp CE-515P plotter/printer - info? In-Reply-To: References: <003701c0e243$af89be20$c8a87ad5@tsunami> from "Philip Pemberton" at May 21, 1 11:16:25 pm Message-ID: <3B0A627E.27254.1428DCD8@localhost> > > > The same mechanism was used by other companies (Oric printer, Tandy > > > CGP115, Commodore 1520, and so on). Many of them (but not the Commodore) > > > used the same microcontroller chip to operate the mechanism, and they all > > > respond to the same commands. > > Not my Sharp - it works with some of the graphics commands (not AXIS or Text > > Rotation, though), but not others, and it needs an ESC b to put it into > > graphics mode. > In which case it's not the standard microcontroller. Darn! Well, this is standard for the Sharp plotters. And the 515/516 use this. For the Commands: (The one I remember) ESC b -> Graphics A -> Text Mode Mx,y -> Move pen to x/y I -> Set Orgin (Index) H -> Back to Orgin (Home) ESC 0 -> Black ESC 1 -> Blue ESC 2 -> Green (or Red, I don't remember) ESC 3 -> Red (or Green) Pxxx -> Print string xxx (until CR) Lx -> Linetype (0..7 or so diferent styles, decimal number) Dx,y -> Draw To x/y All numbers are decimal integers and can have up to 5 digits including leading zeros. Spaces may be inserted around under some circumstances. IIRC commands can be chanined by ';' - not shure about that. Move and Draw should also be able to have several points to move to as a comma seperated list (x1,y1,x2,y2). I can't tell about the other commands, because the above is all I needed (or at least what I remember. There should be some way for relative movement and relative drawing. Again, no Idea about that. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From alex at linuxhacker.org Tue May 22 06:32:18 2001 From: alex at linuxhacker.org (Alex Holden) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: (OT) Acorn RiscPC 600 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 21 May 2001, Mark wrote: > I picked up an Acorn RiscPC 600 base unit the other day, my first Archimedes- > type Acorn machine. Nice. I have an Archimedes A410 myself. > - I'm assuming the RiscPC 600 uses an Archimedes-type mouse. This should not > be a major problem, as a simple pin-to-pin adapter should allow a three- > button Amiga mouse to be connected. I bought my mouse from this guy: http://www.ajl.freeuk.com/forsale.htm Reasonable price, good response, etc. Only problem with it was that it had a dry joint which prevented one of the buttons from working (a five minutes with a screwdriver and a soldering iron fix). -- ------- Alex Holden ------- http://www.linuxhacker.org/ http://www.robogeeks.org/ From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue May 22 07:19:46 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: Needed: ISO 128 or 230MB MO cartridge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <01May22.083141edt.119043@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Does anyone have any ISO standard 128 or 230MB 3-1/2" MO catridges they would be willing to part with? Thanks Jeff From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 22 07:39:06 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: Needed: ISO 128 or 230MB MO cartridge In-Reply-To: <01May22.083141edt.119043@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> References: Message-ID: > Does anyone have any ISO standard 128 or 230MB 3-1/2" MO catridges >they would be willing to part with? > > Thanks > Jeff Last I bought were pretty cheap at either buy.com or egghead.com I forget, but around $6 each I think. From optimus at canit.se Tue May 22 08:34:35 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: HP 300 In-Reply-To: <20010522084658.A5261@mail.er-grp.com> Message-ID: <1887.542T1750T8745259optimus@canit.se> jarkko.teppo skrev: >On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 01:08:03AM +0100, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> jkunz skrev: >> >> Of course, 15 year-old PCs won't fail either. The machines which did fail >> in their first fifteen days are long gone, and that goes for all platforms. >That's quite true. Though in the case of HP I don't think that they've ever >failed:) The *best* computers I've seen/had/used so far. Not like Sparcs with >those pesky idprom problems (I've got a 330 in need of surgery). Tell that to the braindamaged ROM in my 380. Shame on you, HP! >> >This is the way life goes. NetBSD is a living system. It grows, new >> >features like IPv6 (that will become mandatory), wscons (that is >> >reasonible), RAIDframe, Softdeps ... are "bloating" the system. This is >> >> Why should IPv6 be mandatory? Isn't that supposed to be >> backwards-compatible as far as end clients are concerned, and isn't it my >> business what I run on my network? >Way OT but as a fellow NAT-suffering european you ought to be cheering and >jumping for IPv6. As always, your network is your network and I don't think >that anybody cares if you ran the whole thing on top of serial muxes with >multidrop slip encapsulating chaosnet and XNS but I want IPv6 on everything >that I have:) Actually I just played my first ever IPv6 Quake-game last week >with end-to-end native v6 only. I sucked.. and I was the only player. I've never suffered NAT, I just suffer a modem and high telephony costs. What I worry about is whether IPv6 will work on all my machines. Then I worry that IP numbers will be too long for me to remember. >> And why shouldn't one expect NFS support from 2.2BSD? >hmm, the gains aren't worth it ? Aren't the advantages of NFS apparent? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Sagt, ist noch ein Land, au?er Deutschland, wo man die Nase eher r?mpfen lernt als putzen? --- Georg Christoph Lichtenberg From brian.roth at firstniagarabank.com Tue May 22 09:43:55 2001 From: brian.roth at firstniagarabank.com (brian roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: DEC site Message-ID: Well, I haven't decided on a site to host this yet but it sits here http://www.wzrd.com/homeb/jroth/wirzhome/webwirz.htm temporarily. I may just decide to leave it on Yahoo. Let me know what you think. I'm not going to reinvent the wheel with these pages so I am basically just going to concentrate on my personal collection. I welcome any ideas on how to improve the site or something you might like to see. Its a little unpolished and very incomplete but that will hopefully change with weekly improvements. I should have the domain in someones DNS in a couple of weeks so you'll be able to access it as webwirz.com. I want to add a phpbb message board in the future but that will depend on the host having Php and Mysql available. Please note that nothing in my equipment listing is for sale but I do trade occaisionally for things I'm looking for. Thanks, Brian. Brian Roth Network Services First Niagara Bank (716) 625-7500 X2186 Brian.Roth@FirstNiagaraBank.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue May 22 10:33:54 2001 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: Looking for laptop docking station resources on the Web Message-ID: <20010522153354.4716.qmail@web9503.mail.yahoo.com> It may be off topic, so let me ask that people send replies directly, but I just picked up this Thinkpad and docking station at Dayton and am looking for information on the docking station. It's the one with the speakers that stick out like Mickey Mouse ears on both sides. It appears to have an internal SCSI adapter, some odd, high-density ribbon connectors (26 pin, 50 pin and 60 pin), and a slot for a CD-ROM. I'd love to enhance this thing just a little bit, at least enough to use it for Linux (16Mb RAM, 800Mb disk). Any pointers to docking station resources are appreciated. I am also looking for docks for a couple other laptops I have (Toshiba T2100 and Compaq Aero 4/25) Thanks, -ethan ===== Visit "The Seventh Continent" http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From emu at ecubics.com Tue May 22 10:45:43 2001 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: apollo 425t References: <200105211951.VAA20091@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1996.542T150T684095optimus@canit.se> <20010522084658.A5261@mail.er-grp.com> Message-ID: <3B0A89A7.E3C2BB43@ecubics.com> Hi, Anybody knows a source for the memory for this machines ? I got one, but without any :-( cheers & thanks, emanuel From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue May 22 10:55:48 2001 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: apollo 425t In-Reply-To: <3B0A89A7.E3C2BB43@ecubics.com> "from emanuel stiebler at May 22, 2001 09:45:43 am" Message-ID: <200105221555.KAA17487@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Hmm. I dont suppose they use the same memory cards as some of the later systems, such as the 3000's and 3500's? -Lawrence LeMay > Hi, > Anybody knows a source for the memory for this machines ? > I got one, but without any :-( > > cheers & thanks, > emanuel > From emu at ecubics.com Tue May 22 11:12:19 2001 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: apollo 425t References: <200105221555.KAA17487@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <3B0A8FE3.19A2B52D@ecubics.com> Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > Hmm. I dont suppose they use the same memory cards as some of the later > systems, such as the 3000's and 3500's? They look like ps/2, but I'm not sure :-( cheers From jarkko.teppo at er-grp.com Tue May 22 11:39:10 2001 From: jarkko.teppo at er-grp.com (Jarkko Teppo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: HP 300 In-Reply-To: <1887.542T1750T8745259optimus@canit.se> References: <1887.542T1750T8745259optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <990549550.3b0a962e35b6d@mail.er-grp.com> Quoting Iggy Drougge : > jarkko.teppo skrev: > > Tell that to the braindamaged ROM in my 380. Shame on you, HP! In what way it's braindamaged ? > > I've never suffered NAT, I just suffer a modem and high telephony > costs. > What I worry about is whether IPv6 will work on all my machines. Then > I > worry that IP numbers will be too long for me to remember. Without getting into details it's an interesting experience trying to get a netblock these days. Most likely you can lease a /32 for kazillion bucks a month. RIPE isn't softening up with IPv6 however, if you want a block of your own you need to be peering with three other providers. Life's hard. > > >> And why shouldn't one expect NFS support from 2.2BSD? > > >hmm, the gains aren't worth it ? > > Aren't the advantages of NFS apparent? > I love NFS as much as the next guy but if you start adding stuff like NFS, why not have vnodes (well, you better have!) and once you have vnodes why not start supporting different file systems... A bit much for a PDP :) So choice is good. My current testing gateway to the internet is a 486-75MHz, 8/500MB with NetBSD-1.5 and Lucent WLAN card. The basestation is somewhere within 1 km. I'm rambling, better stop. To get back to classiccmp, I'm going to check out a pile of Altos machines tomorrow, Altos 686 and other models. All had their hard drives ripped out. -- jht From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Tue May 22 11:41:19 2001 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: Exidy Sorcerer Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0007A286@BUSH02> That said, actually the better makes of D-connector are rated for quite high voltages (500V and above). They were used on valved equipment, for example. So I you could use a D connector for mains, not that I would, of course. 9 pin D connectors were quite common for mains on BBC equipment but only on backplanes for slot mounted units, never as flying leads. Lee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The information contained in this email may contain information which is confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 22 11:47:47 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: apollo 425t In-Reply-To: <3B0A8FE3.19A2B52D@ecubics.com> References: <200105221555.KAA17487@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: These get scrapped fairly regularly at a couple places near me, so thats one way memory could be found, but the scrapper isn't cheap. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue May 22 12:33:49 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: apollo 425t In-Reply-To: <3B0A8FE3.19A2B52D@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <200105221733.TAA23402@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 22 May, emanuel stiebler wrote: [mem modules] > They look like ps/2, but I'm not sure :-( PS/2 like in a 4xxt??? The 4xxt uses the same "T" shaped RAM modules like the later hp300 machines. Ask Marc if he has some spares. He is usualy well equiped with hp300 stuff. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu Tue May 22 12:40:59 2001 From: Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu (Marion Bates) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: NeXTstation questions Message-ID: <45541339@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 993 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010522/21c49e02/attachment.bin From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue May 22 13:27:27 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: HP 300 In-Reply-To: <1996.542T150T684095optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <200105221827.UAA23514@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 22 May, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Of course, 15 year-old PCs won't fail either. The machines which did fail in > their first fifteen days are long gone, and that goes for all platforms. I ment: The percentage of systems that fails in the first 15 days of life is in the PC area much higher than in the area of "real" hardware. Most PC hardware ever made is low quality. Except e.g. IBM MCA machines. (Buhu. My PS/2 70P is broken. :-( ) > Why should IPv6 be mandatory? Is is not yet, but it will be in future. > Isn't that supposed to be backwards-compatible > as far as end clients are concerned, > and isn't it my business what I run on my network? Yes. But if you want to connect your network to the world, you will make the experience that IPv4 addresses are a rare resource. You can do things like NAT, but the time will come when the IPv4 addres space is exhausted. > And why shouldn't one expect NFS support from 2.2BSD? Because he is newbie and expects from every *ix to speak NFS? > Schont die Sockel, wenn ihr die Denkm?ler st?rzt. > Sie k?nnten noch gebraucht werden. :-) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From celigne at tinyworld.co.uk Tue May 22 13:32:36 2001 From: celigne at tinyworld.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: DEC site References: Message-ID: <3B0AB0C4.674B556C@tinyworld.co.uk> brian roth wrote: > > Well, I haven't decided on a site to host this yet but it sits here > http://www.wzrd.com/homeb/jroth/wirzhome/webwirz.htm temporarily. > I welcome any ideas on how to improve the site or something you > might like to see. I'd like to see anything at all. It just appears to be a bunch of Flash files at the moment, which make it completely impenetrable. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 22 13:41:18 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: DEC site In-Reply-To: Re: DEC site (Paul Williams) References: <3B0AB0C4.674B556C@tinyworld.co.uk> Message-ID: <15114.45774.75044.641402@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 22, Paul Williams wrote: > > Well, I haven't decided on a site to host this yet but it sits here > http://www.wzrd.com/homeb/jroth/wirzhome/webwirz.htm temporarily. > > > I welcome any ideas on how to improve the site or something you > > might like to see. > > I'd like to see anything at all. It just appears to be a bunch of Flash > files at the moment, which make it completely impenetrable. I was about to say the same thing. -Dave McGuire From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue May 22 13:58:43 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: NeXTstation questions In-Reply-To: <45541339@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Message-ID: <01May22.151031edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> On Tuesday, May 22, 2001, at 01:40 PM, Marion Bates wrote: > Can I use a standard old Mac monitor connector between the two? If not, > can I use a monitor besides the Megapixel and use a regular Mac monitor > connector with that instead? Monitors other than the Megapixel display can be used but they require an adapter that generally sells for nearly as much as used NeXT monitors. The connecting cable that went from the monitor to the CPU also carried the signals for the keyboard, mouse, and sound as well as video. > I don't see an ADB port on the unit itself, but the megapixel has one. > Does that mean that the computer _requires_ the megapixel display in > order to be useable at all? Or, in the absence of that monitor, can it > use one of the other ports (which one?) for a keyboard/mouse? Unless this is a Turbo model, even though the connector looks like it, it isn't an ADB port. > What is the purpose of the "DSP" port? (Two triangles beside it, one > pointing up and one down, and the connector is 15-pin) I'm sure there must have been something that was made to plug into that port, but I don't know what. It leads to a Digital Signal Processor. > Which port(s), if any, are LocalTalk-able? I see two mini-din serial > ports (labeled A and B) and one old-fasioned 9-pin connector with a > picture of a laserprinter. Some have had luck using normal Mac cables for modems but otherwise the NeXT had a modem cable all it's own. I believe it connected to Port A. The 9pin connector is used specifically and only for the NeXT laster printer. Jeff From ecloud at bigfoot.com Tue May 22 14:06:29 2001 From: ecloud at bigfoot.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: NeXTstation questions In-Reply-To: <01May22.151031edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil>; from jhellige@earthlink.net on Tue, May 22, 2001 at 02:58:43PM -0400 References: <45541339@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> <01May22.151031edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <20010522120628.K1578@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 02:58:43PM -0400, Jeff Hellige wrote: > > What is the purpose of the "DSP" port? (Two triangles beside it, one > > pointing up and one down, and the connector is 15-pin) > > I'm sure there must have been something that was made to plug into > that port, but I don't know what. It leads to a Digital Signal > Processor. Yeah I think there's a sound box with a speaker, and some audio connectors. -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 22 14:15:27 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: NeXTstation questions In-Reply-To: NeXTstation questions (Marion Bates) References: <45541339@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Message-ID: <15114.47823.324670.414071@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 22, Marion Bates wrote: > I don't see an ADB port on the unit itself, but the megapixel has > one. Does that mean that the computer _requires_ the megapixel display > in order to be useable at all? Or, in the absence of that monitor, can > it use one of the other ports (which one?) for a keyboard/mouse? Be careful here...Some NeXTs use ADB and some don't. And yes, you need the monitor. > What is the purpose of the "DSP" port? (Two triangles beside it, one > pointing up and one down, and the connector is 15-pin) The DSP port didn't have any set purpose. It's a high-speed synchronous port with a directt path to the machine's DSP chip. It's been used for many things including high-quality video and audio I/O and stuff like that. I've seen many home-brew lab experiments using that port also, both in personal applications as well as in laboratories. One popular application involved building an interface to connecting a glove-like input device (PowerGlove or something like that) to the DSP port and use it for virtual-reality-like experimentation. > Which port(s), if any, are LocalTalk-able? I see two mini-din serial > ports (labeled A and B) and one old-fasioned 9-pin connector with a > picture of a laserprinter. An "old-fashioned" 9-pin connector...I got a good chuckle out of that. ;) > Last thing -- what are the specs on these, or where can I find that > out? Those serial ports use the same pinouts as Macs and Sun IPC/IPX machines. -Dave McGuire From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 22 14:16:55 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: NeXTstation questions In-Reply-To: Re: NeXTstation questions (Jeff Hellige) References: <45541339@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> <01May22.151031edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <15114.47911.376977.307712@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 22, Jeff Hellige wrote: > > I don't see an ADB port on the unit itself, but the megapixel has one. > > Does that mean that the computer _requires_ the megapixel display in > > order to be useable at all? Or, in the absence of that monitor, can it > > use one of the other ports (which one?) for a keyboard/mouse? > > Unless this is a Turbo model, even though the connector looks like > it, it isn't an ADB port. Being a Turbo NeXT (either color or mono) does NOT mean it's an ADB NeXT. Indeed, I've a stack of color turbos here that are most certainly not ADB. -Dave McGuire From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 22 14:18:18 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: NeXTstation questions In-Reply-To: Re: NeXTstation questions (Shawn T. Rutledge) References: <45541339@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> <01May22.151031edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <20010522120628.K1578@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> Message-ID: <15114.47994.704768.65899@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 22, Shawn T. Rutledge wrote: > On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 02:58:43PM -0400, Jeff Hellige wrote: > > > What is the purpose of the "DSP" port? (Two triangles beside it, one > > > pointing up and one down, and the connector is 15-pin) > > > > I'm sure there must have been something that was made to plug into > > that port, but I don't know what. It leads to a Digital Signal > > Processor. > > Yeah I think there's a sound box with a speaker, and some audio connectors. ...which doesn't connect to the DSP port. It connects to the video/kbd/audio connector on color NeXT machines. The NeXT soundbox isn't used on mono machines because the speakers and audio connectors (and sometimes the mic, depending on version) are built into the monitor. -Dave McGuire From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 22 14:22:25 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: Looking for laptop docking station resources on the Web In-Reply-To: <20010522153354.4716.qmail@web9503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >It may be off topic, so let me ask that people send replies directly, but I >just picked up this Thinkpad and docking station at Dayton and am looking >for information on the docking station. It's the one with the speakers that >stick out like Mickey Mouse ears on both sides. It appears to have an >internal SCSI adapter, some odd, high-density ribbon connectors (26 pin, >50 pin and 60 pin), and a slot for a CD-ROM. I'd love to enhance this thing >just a little bit, at least enough to use it for Linux (16Mb RAM, 800Mb disk). In the case of IBM, I think you should be able to find the info on thier web site. I know I was able to find a bunch of info and drivers for the laptop I've got, but I've not tried to find anything on the docking station which sounds a lot like yours. I'm pretty sure your docking station does in fact have SCSI. You'll need to do some research on the display of the laptop though. Finding display drivers for X-Windows is where you'll run into trouble. You're best bet for OS's will be either Windows or OS/2, with Linux coming in a definite 3rd. That's my problem, I'm really not sure what OS to put on mine. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue May 22 15:08:28 2001 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: Looking for laptop docking station resources on the Web In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010522200828.68242.qmail@web9504.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > >I...am looking for information on the docking station. > You'll need to do some research on the display of the laptop though. > Finding display drivers for X-Windows is where you'll run into trouble. > You're best bet for OS's will be either Windows or OS/2, with Linux coming > in a definite 3rd. That's my problem, I'm really not sure what OS to put > on mine. I'm not worried about X. Unix != X in my book. I spend >90% of my time at a telnet prompt. My more modern Dell laptop does have a full-blown install on it, but I have 40Mb of RAM, and that machine won't be on topic for about five years. Never got into OS/2, would rather not start now (I do have several copies, including Warp, but never even booted one). Thanks, -ethan ===== Visit "The Seventh Continent" http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu Tue May 22 15:27:09 2001 From: Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu (Marion Bates) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: NeXTstation questions Message-ID: <45554676@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 301 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010522/17ceae89/attachment.bin From CARL.P.HIRSCH at sargentlundy.com Tue May 22 16:17:45 2001 From: CARL.P.HIRSCH at sargentlundy.com (CARL.P.HIRSCH@sargentlundy.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: NeXTstation questions Message-ID: Here's the NeXT FAQ - http://www.channelu.com/NeXT/NeXTFAQ-new/NeXTFAQ.toc.html That's for telling me about Black Hole computing. Definitely more deserving of one's business than your average eBay profiteer. -carl Marion.Bates@dartmout h.edu (Marion Bates) To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Sent by: cc: owner-classiccmp@clas Subject: Re: NeXTstation questions siccmp.org 05/22/01 03:27 PM Please respond to classiccmp Hey all, It's definitely not an ADB port...I didn't look carefully enough. :) I ended up ordering a monitor cable and keyboard/mouse from Black Hole Inc. which has some nice historical info and quite a selection of NeXT hardware and software for sale. Thanks for all the info, folks! -- MB From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue May 22 17:46:47 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: NeXTstation questions In-Reply-To: <20010522120628.K1578@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> References: <45541339@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> <01May22.151031edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <20010522120628.K1578@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> Message-ID: >On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 02:58:43PM -0400, Jeff Hellige wrote: >> > What is the purpose of the "DSP" port? (Two triangles beside it, one >> > pointing up and one down, and the connector is 15-pin) >> >> I'm sure there must have been something that was made to plug into >> that port, but I don't know what. It leads to a Digital Signal >> Processor. > >Yeah I think there's a sound box with a speaker, and some audio connectors. The soundbox plugged into the same cable as the monitor, both of which plugged into the monitor output. I've yet to see anything that plugged into the DSP port, though I'm sure there must have been stuff. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue May 22 17:48:54 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: NeXTstation questions In-Reply-To: <15114.47911.376977.307712@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <45541339@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> <01May22.151031edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <15114.47911.376977.307712@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Being a Turbo NeXT (either color or mono) does NOT mean it's an ADB >NeXT. Indeed, I've a stack of color turbos here that are most >certainly not ADB. The Turbo's could be had either way but they were the only one's to have ADB. None of the non-Turbo models had ADB. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue May 22 17:50:09 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: NeXTstation questions In-Reply-To: <45554676@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> References: <45554676@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Message-ID: >I ended up ordering a monitor cable and keyboard/mouse from Black >Hole Inc. which has some nice historical info and quite a selection >of NeXT hardware and software for sale. Black Hole's a good company too deal with and he'll answer a lot of your questions too. He's also about the only place around that still has a sizable stock of NeXT stuff. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 22 17:25:47 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:40 2005 Subject: Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: <1289.542T50T1523215optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at May 22, 1 02:32:01 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1577 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010522/d7aa0f92/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 22 17:31:35 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: tape drives In-Reply-To: <3B09CD1C.712623BF@aurora.regenstrief.org> from "Gunther Schadow" at May 22, 1 02:21:16 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1947 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010522/1734e967/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 22 17:41:11 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: Sharp CE-515P plotter/printer - info? In-Reply-To: <3B0A627E.27254.1428DCD8@localhost> from "Hans Franke" at May 22, 1 12:58:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1698 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010522/81587e6e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 22 17:20:34 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: <2569.542T250T1383415optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at May 22, 1 02:18:05 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2354 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010522/dcf6818c/attachment.ksh From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Tue May 22 18:05:47 2001 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: apollo 425t Message-ID: The DN3000 and DN3500 are *earlier* machines, *not* later... the 425t is an HP machine, it's technically an HP Apollo 9000/425t.. Will J _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 22 18:22:42 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: NeXTstation questions In-Reply-To: Re: NeXTstation questions (Jeff Hellige) References: <45541339@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> <01May22.151031edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <20010522120628.K1578@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> Message-ID: <15114.62658.374626.37476@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 22, Jeff Hellige wrote: > >On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 02:58:43PM -0400, Jeff Hellige wrote: > >> > What is the purpose of the "DSP" port? (Two triangles beside it, one > >> > pointing up and one down, and the connector is 15-pin) > >> > >> I'm sure there must have been something that was made to plug into > >> that port, but I don't know what. It leads to a Digital Signal > >> Processor. > > > >Yeah I think there's a sound box with a speaker, and some audio connectors. > > The soundbox plugged into the same cable as the monitor, both > of which plugged into the monitor output. I've yet to see anything > that plugged into the DSP port, though I'm sure there must have been > stuff. Two products called "Digital Eyes" and "Digital Ears", that allowed for video and audio digitization. Also the DayDream box, a small box that basically turned your NeXT into a Mac Quadra if you booted the right kernel. Those were the only commercial products that I've seen, though there have been rumors of others. -Dave McGuire From halarewich at look.ca Tue May 22 18:26:44 2001 From: halarewich at look.ca (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: ID computer Message-ID: <3B0AF5B4.D54806B4@look.ca> at the local salvation army today came across a computer/wordprosser unit made by Cannon called the Cannon Cat any info on this would be most grateful Chris -- # Netscape POP3 State File # This is a generated file! Do not edit. From jss at ou.edu Tue May 22 18:36:38 2001 From: jss at ou.edu (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: DEC site In-Reply-To: <15114.45774.75044.641402@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <3B0AB0C4.674B556C@tinyworld.co.uk> <15114.45774.75044.641402@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <990574598.3b0af80605829@email.ou.edu> Quoting Dave McGuire : > On May 22, Paul Williams wrote: > > I'd like to see anything at all. It just appears to be a bunch > > of Flash files at the moment, which make it completely > > impenetrable. > > I was about to say the same thing. I agree. The Flash is a Very Bad Idea -- especially when the things you are using it for are so easily done with straight HTML and images. I was annoyed when my Unix web browser wouldn't show the page, and then even more annoyed when I found out what the Flash files are actually used for. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@ou.edu From louiss at gate.net Tue May 22 18:43:05 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: ID computer In-Reply-To: <3B0AF5B4.D54806B4@look.ca> Message-ID: <200105222343.TAA30936@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> On Tue, 22 May 2001 16:26:44 -0700, Chris Halarewich wrote: #at the local salvation army today came across a computer/wordprosser #unit made by Cannon called the Cannon Cat any info on this would be most #grateful #Chris # Buy it and send it to me immediately! I will reimburse you your cost, shipping and a $10 finder's fee. Louis From spc at conman.org Tue May 22 18:51:53 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: ID computer In-Reply-To: <3B0AF5B4.D54806B4@look.ca> from "Chris Halarewich" at May 22, 2001 04:26:44 PM Message-ID: <200105222351.TAA07577@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Chris Halarewich once stated: > > at the local salvation army today came across a computer/wordprosser > unit made by Cannon called the Cannon Cat any info on this would be most > grateful Jef Raskin was at Apple Computers in the late 70s, early 80s and was working on an information appliance called the Macintosh [1] when Steve Jobs came in and took the project over [2]. Jef left shortly thereafter when it became apparent his original design was being discarded. He tried making an information appliance on his own (based on the Apple ][, with some special hardware) but that didn't go anywhere (Swyft machine). He then ended up in Cannon where he finally made the machine he wanted to---the Cannon Cat. There's not much out there, but the machine itself seems pretty neat. Here are a (the?) few sites that have anything at all about the machine: http://www.spies.com/~aek/orphanage.html http://www.regnirps.com/SEF/oddities.htm http://www.landsnail.com/apple/local/cat.html http://www.regnirps.com/resume.htm http://www.jefraskin.com/curriculum_vitae.html http://www.argyle-design.com/html/portfolio_html/products/swift.html http://www.asktog.com/TOI/toi22KeyboardVMouse2.html Jef Raskin's own site is at http://www.jefraskin.com/ . He has some very interesting ideas about UIs and I find his work facinating, although the average geek seem to miss his point (in the last year there have been two articles on Slashdot (http://slashdot.org/) about Jef Raskin and the general population there hasn't been kind to Jef). -spc (Would love to play around with a Cannon Cat ... ) [1] The original Macintosh was a text and keyboard computer based originally around the 6809. Jef Raskin was never a fan of GUIs (and he particularly hates mice). [2] I believe that upper management at Apple were tired of Steve Jobs and wanted him to go away really. They either gave him the Macintosh project to keep him away from the day to day operations, or they kept him away from the day to day operations and he glommed into the Macintosh project as something to do. From halarewich at look.ca Tue May 22 19:31:29 2001 From: halarewich at look.ca (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: ID computer References: <3B0AF5B4.D54806B4@look.ca> Message-ID: <3B0B04E1.F276986E@look.ca> hi If there is a enough interest in this Computer I will do a mini auction on this list no ebay if you guys are interested it comes with the compter/monitor the originalcannon printer and a video tape on how to run it and takers I live in Castlegar bc Canada all offers will be accepted in us dollars+ shipping Chris Chris Halarewich wrote: > at the local salvation army today came across a computer/wordprosser > unit made by Cannon called the Cannon Cat any info on this would be most > grateful > Chris > > -- > # Netscape POP3 State File > # This is a generated file! Do not edit. -- # Netscape POP3 State File # This is a generated file! Do not edit. From optimus at canit.se Tue May 22 20:12:24 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: HP 300 In-Reply-To: <990549550.3b0a962e35b6d@mail.er-grp.com> Message-ID: <2244.543T1200T1325113optimus@canit.se> Jarkko Teppo skrev: >Quoting Iggy Drougge : >> jarkko.teppo skrev: >> >> Tell that to the braindamaged ROM in my 380. Shame on you, HP! >In what way it's braindamaged ? It won't use a serial console, unless told so via a HIL keyboard. If I had a HIL keyboard, I would not need a serial console. >> I've never suffered NAT, I just suffer a modem and high telephony >> costs. >> What I worry about is whether IPv6 will work on all my machines. Then >> I >> worry that IP numbers will be too long for me to remember. >Without getting into details it's an interesting experience trying >to get a netblock these days. Most likely you can lease a /32 for >kazillion bucks a month. RIPE isn't softening up with IPv6 however, >if you want a block of your own you need to be peering with three >other providers. Life's hard. I really object to how everything costs and arm and a leg on today's net. Unless it's financed via ads and popup windows, which is no better. >> >> And why shouldn't one expect NFS support from 2.2BSD? >> >> >hmm, the gains aren't worth it ? >> >> Aren't the advantages of NFS apparent? >I love NFS as much as the next guy but if you start adding stuff >like NFS, why not have vnodes (well, you better have!) and once >you have vnodes why not start supporting different file systems... >A bit much for a PDP :) Why not support different file systems? And what is a vnode? >So choice is good. My current testing gateway to the internet is a >486-75MHz, 8/500MB with NetBSD-1.5 and Lucent WLAN card. >The basestation is somewhere within 1 km. I'm rambling, better stop. I've got some metres of "broadband" above my door. One day, it will go into my flat. OTOH, I don't see any reason to use all that fancy firewalling or NAT stuff. >To get back to classiccmp, I'm going to check out a pile of Altos >machines tomorrow, Altos 686 and other models. All had their hard >drives ripped out. What is an Altos? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "Auf Sparc-Maschinen ist Linux weit weniger gut. Auf Maschinen mit sun4 Architektur ist NetBSD etwa 30% schneller. Wer auf so einer Maschine Linux faehrt tut es aus ideologischen Gruenden oder kennt nichts anderes." Aus: de.comp.os.unix.misc, "Was ist schneller?" From optimus at canit.se Tue May 22 20:19:52 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: NeXTstation questions In-Reply-To: <15114.47823.324670.414071@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <542.543T2600T1395849optimus@canit.se> Dave McGuire skrev: >On May 22, Marion Bates wrote: >> I don't see an ADB port on the unit itself, but the megapixel has >> one. Does that mean that the computer _requires_ the megapixel display >> in order to be useable at all? Or, in the absence of that monitor, can >> it use one of the other ports (which one?) for a keyboard/mouse? > Be careful here...Some NeXTs use ADB and some don't. And yes, you >need the monitor. Can't one just construct a breakout cable? Or does it involve advanced electronics? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Tue May 22 20:41:46 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3125.543T2300T1615641optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >> >Getting back to DIN plugs, I don't _like_ them being used for any form o= >> f >> >power connection, but many manufacturers did use them for low voltage >> >(<20V) power inputs. It is reasonably safe to do that, even if it can >> >prove unreliable in the end. >> >> Why not? I know that it doesn't latch very well, if that's your gripe. >Because the contact area between pin and socket contact (the latter being >a U-shaped thing) is rather too small for a power connector IMHO. Also, >they're normally just tinned contacts, not gold or silver plated (I've >seen gold and silver plated plugs in the catalogues, but not the sockets). >It's probably OK as a low power connector, but why use it when there are >better choices? Because it's a DIN standard? >> >Odd... No computer should ever assume that either side of the mains is >> >grounded, and thus the safety ground shouldn't make any different to the >> >working of the PSU (I assume the machine refused to power up at all). Ar= >> e >> >you sure the mains voltage was the same in both cases (did you check it >> >with a voltmeter?) >> >> It did refuse to power up at all. Very queer. >> And why would the voltages change? It's not as if we're running 110V in t= >> his >> part of the town. >No, but PSUs can do odd things if given voltages which are marginally too >high or too low. Yes, the mains could still be described as 230V (or >whatever), but what was it really? Can't tell now, nor would I ever dare poke a voltmeter into a wall outlet. It was an old house, though, much older than electricity, but due to that, the wiring seemed to be newer than here. >> >That said, if you really don't have earths on the outlets in your new >> >flat, sort the wiring out NOW, before an earth leak kills somebody. >> >Safety grounds are there for a good reason. >> >> My "sorting it out" would sooner kill me or someone else. No way that I a= >> m >> going to peek inside live wires, and besides, earthing the flat would req= >> uire >> rebuilding the electric infrastructure of the entire complex. >You mean it's still OK to wire power circuits without ground wires in >your country? Ouch!!!. Remind me not to visit :-) I don't know about the legalities, but earthed outlets are common practice nowadays, though sometimes the earth wire, while present in the entire net, isn't actually connected in the outlets of dry areas, apparently to accomodate old plugs, but that's just what I've read. Anyway, this building was built in the 60s, and back then, there was no such legislature. Besides, the UK doesn't seem all that well off according to what I've read. UK ground is not the same as continental earth. I think it's got to do with the lines being earthed at the station, whereas the continental earth lead goes to a big piece of metal in the ground somewhere in the vicinity of the bulding. Due to that, many kits can't be legally imported into the UK, since they aren't safe when plugged into the UK electric system. Or so they say. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Amiga 4000/040 25MHz/44MB/20GB RetinaBLTZ3/VLab/FastlaneZ3/Ariadne/Toccata From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 22 19:51:41 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: NeXTstation questions In-Reply-To: Re: NeXTstation questions (Iggy Drougge) References: <15114.47823.324670.414071@phaduka.neurotica.com> <542.543T2600T1395849optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <15115.2461.954803.495370@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 23, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Dave McGuire skrev: > > >On May 22, Marion Bates wrote: > >> I don't see an ADB port on the unit itself, but the megapixel has > >> one. Does that mean that the computer _requires_ the megapixel display > >> in order to be useable at all? Or, in the absence of that monitor, can > >> it use one of the other ports (which one?) for a keyboard/mouse? > > > Be careful here...Some NeXTs use ADB and some don't. And yes, you > >need the monitor. > > Can't one just construct a breakout cable? Or does it involve advanced > electronics? One can construct a breakout cable, but then you'd have to come up with a monitor that'd sync to the framebuffer's output. NeXT monitors are neither expensive nor difficult to find. It's really not worth messing with. -Dave McGuire From optimus at canit.se Tue May 22 20:49:06 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: ID computer In-Reply-To: <200105222343.TAA30936@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <607.543T300T1693809optimus@canit.se> Louis Schulman skrev: >On Tue, 22 May 2001 16:26:44 -0700, Chris Halarewich wrote: >#at the local salvation army today came across a computer/wordprosser >#unit made by Cannon called the Cannon Cat any info on this would be >most grateful >Buy it and send it to me immediately! I will reimburse you your cost, >shipping and a $10 finder's fee. Louis, is your interest purely academical, or do dedicated wordpro's appeal to some of your base instincts? Please, enlighten us. ;-9 -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Fernsehen ist das einzige Schlafmittel, das mit den Augen genommen wird. --- Vittorio de Sica From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue May 22 20:08:19 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: NeXTstation questions In-Reply-To: <15115.2461.954803.495370@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <15114.47823.324670.414071@phaduka.neurotica.com> <542.543T2600T1395849optimus@canit.se> <15115.2461.954803.495370@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: > NeXT monitors are neither expensive nor difficult to find. It's >really not worth messing with. They certainly are heavy beasts though! I bet my color N4001 weighs 70 pounds. One thing you have to watch out for is dimness though. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From edick at idcomm.com Tue May 22 20:09:46 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: LANCE References: <422.542T2850T1566643optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <002c01c0e325$0eb34a60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I do believe that Will Jennings has one on a PCB I recently saw. You might be able to twist his arm. You will also need the 7992 and possibly some sort of modulator (7996?) for the medium you use if you're scratch-building an application. You might check chipcenter.com and freetradezone.com, as I don't think AMD will be able to help you. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iggy Drougge" To: "Classic computing" Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 7:36 PM Subject: LANCE > Where does one get an AMD LANCE ethernet controller nowadays? Preferably in a > DIL (?) package. > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > [E]xcept in the works of Gunnar Asplund, architect of the Stockholm Exhibition > of 1930 and the Stockholm crematorium, Sweden has never contributed much to > the revolutionary developments through which modern architecture made its > initial impact on the world. > J.M. Richards, Modern Architecture > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 22 20:12:52 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: NeXTstation questions In-Reply-To: Re: NeXTstation questions (Jeff Hellige) References: <15114.47823.324670.414071@phaduka.neurotica.com> <542.543T2600T1395849optimus@canit.se> <15115.2461.954803.495370@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <15115.3732.985692.694996@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 22, Jeff Hellige wrote: > > NeXT monitors are neither expensive nor difficult to find. It's > >really not worth messing with. > > They certainly are heavy beasts though! I bet my color N4001 > weighs 70 pounds. One thing you have to watch out for is dimness > though. Very true on both points. Those big color tubes are painful to move. The mono tubes aren't too bad, though. -Dave McGuire From louiss at gate.net Tue May 22 20:15:27 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: ID computer In-Reply-To: <607.543T300T1693809optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <200105230115.VAA06121@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> On 23 May 2001 2:49:6 +0100, Iggy Drougge wrote: #Louis Schulman skrev: [note: I didn't skrev anything, I can't even speak Swedish!] # #>On Tue, 22 May 2001 16:26:44 -0700, Chris Halarewich wrote: # #>#at the local salvation army today came across a computer/wordprosser #>#unit made by Cannon called the Cannon Cat any info on this would be #>most grateful # #>Buy it and send it to me immediately! I will reimburse you your cost, #>shipping and a $10 finder's fee. # #Louis, is your interest purely academical, or do dedicated wordpro's appeal to #some of your base instincts? #Please, enlighten us. ;-9 # As noted in another post, the Cannon Cat was much more than a dedicated word processor, it was in fact a quite different technology that never caught on. It is highly collectable, at least in THIS country. And anyway, how can I take a question seriously from someone who has never stuck a voltage probe into an electric socket? I do it all the time, just for fun, and to set my hair. Louis From reyes at orion.ae.utexas.edu Tue May 22 20:17:25 2001 From: reyes at orion.ae.utexas.edu (Reuben Reyes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: Austin Texas UT Auction Message-ID: Sorry for the late notice but i just found out and can not go. If any of you in the central texas area are free tomorrow here is the information. University of Texas at Austin will have an auction tomorrow May 23, 2001 at JJ Pickle Research Campus building 45. Here are some of the items PDP 11/45 RA81 x 3 Stardent M/2000 RISC computer MIPS HP Apollo x 3 RA81 x 8 Vax 8600 ( vax bar? ) Tape drive Kennedy model 9300 x 2 Vax station 3 Vax station 3200 Sparc Server 490 MicroVax Digital RL02 Old tape drive Sanborn Division HP Houston Inst. 50 inch plotters x 2 2 SEM (one looks stripped the other has an 8inch floppy and monitor) several printers several copiers bunch of junk and strange lab equip. 1 boat without motor many cars and trucks If any one goes and needs help i may get off work early to help you load. Any other days thursday and friday i can help load if any one needs help. Reuben From halarewich at look.ca Tue May 22 20:29:32 2001 From: halarewich at look.ca (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: Canon Cat References: Message-ID: <3B0B127C.DCFFC11B@look.ca> hi I have a bid of $70 us + shipping any others I will keep the bidding open until Sunday at 7pm pacific time thanx chris keep the bids comming Chris hi If there is a enough interest in this Computer I will do a mini auction on this list no ebay if you guys are interested it comes with the compter/monitor the originalcannon printer and a video tape on how to run it and takers I live in Castlegar bc Canada all offers will be accepted in us dollars+ shipping Chris Chandra Bajpai wrote: > Sounds good...let me know. > -Chandra > > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Halarewich [mailto:halarewich@look.ca] > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 8:58 PM > To: Chandra Bajpai > Subject: Re: Canon Cat > > As far as I know yes when I was at the salvation army all I could do was > turn the main computer on type on the screen that still worked but the > printer was becide it and not hooked up so that part I am not sure of > chris > > Chandra Bajpai wrote: > > > Chris - I'll offer you $70...is it still working? > > > > -Chandra > > -- > # Netscape POP3 State File > # This is a generated file! Do not edit. -- # Netscape POP3 State File # This is a generated file! Do not edit. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 22 20:31:43 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: ID computer In-Reply-To: <200105222351.TAA07577@conman.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 May 2001, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > > unit made by Cannon called the Cannon Cat any info on this would be most > Jef Raskin's own site is at http://www.jefraskin.com/ . He has some very > interesting ideas about UIs and I find his work facinating, although the > average geek seem to miss his point (in the last year there have been two > articles on Slashdot (http://slashdot.org/) about Jef Raskin and the general > population there hasn't been kind to Jef). Raskin is brilliant, but what he likes is not going to be well received here. By analogy, I think that an automatic transmission, automatic choke, etc. are neat ideas, but I do NOT want them on MY car. I don't think that I "miss the point", just that I prefer manual control of most systems, no matter how "neat" or "clever" an automatic system is. If you put a disk into a drive and the computer can't read it, do you WANT the computer to go aghead and format it without asking? The Cat DID have a mouse input. ("as do ALL cats") And Raskin claims credit for the Mac having only one button on its mouse. (because 2 or three buttons would be too "confusing") I have heard that the particular "confusion" was: 1) the user would have to look away from the screen to see which button they were pushing 2) it is hard to explain to the user to push a specific button, but easy to say "push THE button" Anyone know WHICH "confusion" it was? [BTW, if you velcro a PCJr keyboard to the top of a mouse, then you have the RIGHT number of buttons, and no longer need to take your hand off of the keyboard to mouse! (most other computers have keyboards that are too massive to do that] Raskin says that the Cat had graphics. That it was CANON's decision to never mention the existence of the graphics in any of the user literature. The reason: the machine came with a daisy wheel printer that couldn't print graphics. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Tue May 22 20:32:34 2001 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: Austin Texas UT Auction Message-ID: If ANYONE at all can go to that, I will worship you forever if you get that Stardent and the 8600 for me... I'll gladly reimburse you, possibly even a finders fee for your time.. gawd... Will J _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From foo at siconic.com Tue May 22 19:40:20 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: Austin Texas UT Auction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 22 May 2001, Reuben Reyes wrote: > > Sorry for the late notice but i just found out and > can not go. If any of you in the central texas area > are free tomorrow here is the information. > > University of Texas at Austin will have an auction > tomorrow May 23, 2001 at JJ Pickle Research Campus > building 45. > > Here are some of the items > PDP 11/45 It would be a dire shame to see this go to a scrapper. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From rich at lafferty.ca Tue May 22 20:45:19 2001 From: rich at lafferty.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: Free: SCO Open Desktop 1.0.0 on 5.25" disks Message-ID: <20010522214519.B3220@lafferty.ca> Hi -- I'm cleaning out closets here, and I've come across a copy of SCO Open Desktop 1.0.0 (!) on 5.25" disks. I've no idea where it came from, but that's the case with a *lot* of the stuff in this closet. :-) Anyhow, if someone would find this interesting/useful, it's yours. I'd prefer you pay shipping, just so I'm not actually *losing* money on it. :-) It's a 9 x 9 x 6 1/2" box, weighs five lbs or so (75% manuals, 25% floppies, in three still-sealed floppy-boxes!). "System requirements: For 386 or 486 computers based on Industry Standard Architechture or Extended Industry Standard Architecture. Minimum requirements include: 6.0 MB of memory; 100 MB of disk space; EGA, VGA, Extended VGA, Herculese Monochrome, or selected high-performance adapter; Bus or serial mouse (recommended); and, 3C501, 3C503, 3C523 or WD8003E Network Card (optional)." It's never been used, so you get the license and activation keys as well. It's marked "FOR SHIPMENT WITHIN THE U.S. AND CANADA ONLY", so I can't guarantee you'll have a legal license if youre not there. Quickly reading over the blurb, it's got LAN Manager and MS-DOS support, X11, and an unknown DBMS includeed, and "unleashes the full power of 386 and 486 machines". Zowie! Anyhow, drop me a line if you want it. It'll go to the first person to offer to pay shipping, or, if no-one does, to the first person that's not too expensive to send to. :-) SKILL-TESTING QUESTION: I'm not on the list anymore -- please reply directly to me. (On the off chance the address above fails (brand new!), try .) Cheers, -Rich From halarewich at look.ca Tue May 22 21:39:59 2001 From: halarewich at look.ca (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: Canon Cat References: <3B0B127C.DCFFC11B@look.ca> Message-ID: <3B0B22FF.9369DAE1@look.ca> up to $100 now chris Hi Chris, I'll bid $100+ shipping Curt Chris Halarewich wrote: > hi > I have a bid of $70 us + shipping any others I will keep the bidding open > until Sunday at 7pm pacific time > thanx > chris > keep the bids comming > Chris > > hi > If there is a enough interest in this Computer I will do a mini > auction on this list no ebay if you guys are interested it comes with the > compter/monitor the originalcannon printer and a video tape on how to run it > > and takers I live in Castlegar bc Canada all offers will be accepted in us > dollars+ shipping > Chris > > Chandra Bajpai wrote: > > > Sounds good...let me know. > > -Chandra > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Chris Halarewich [mailto:halarewich@look.ca] > > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 8:58 PM > > To: Chandra Bajpai > > Subject: Re: Canon Cat > > > > As far as I know yes when I was at the salvation army all I could do was > > turn the main computer on type on the screen that still worked but the > > printer was becide it and not hooked up so that part I am not sure of > > chris > > > > Chandra Bajpai wrote: > > > > > Chris - I'll offer you $70...is it still working? > > > > > > -Chandra > > > > -- > > # Netscape POP3 State File > > # This is a generated file! Do not edit. > > -- > # Netscape POP3 State File > # This is a generated file! Do not edit. -- # Netscape POP3 State File # This is a generated file! Do not edit. From THETechnoid at home.com Fri May 18 11:12:16 2001 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: Slicing open the top of a 48T02 Sun Sparc chip to replace battery is that thing hollow or filled with epoxy? In-Reply-To: <10105180843.ZM23882@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20010523025706.DYCT20675.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@Benchbox> In place of the Thomson chip I used this Dallas replacement on my Sparc. Works well. If you want to replace the batt then you have your work cut out for you. Cut carefully at the extremities and you will see leads for the batt on either side. Can't do any harm by trying. The Tompson has a 'cap' on it for a batt. I did manage to 'replace' the batt on my Thompson chip, but it was ugly. I cut the four posts securing the batt of the Thompson to the 'business end' then soldered a battery carrier's leads to the power inputs of the chip. Later my Dallas replacement arrived and I mothballed my hacked version. I can take a picture of the hacked version if you like. This is a fairly frequent question these days and my wife and I received this weekend a Cannon Elph Powershot 100 as a late wedding present so now I can offer this. The Dallas is poured epoxy....read 'don't even try. Call Dallas Semiconductor directly for a replacement. Others will rape you. Good luck and happy hunting. In <10105180843.ZM23882@indy.dunnington.u-net.com>, on 05/18/01 at 12:12 PM, pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) said: >On May 17, 19:34, Richard Erlacher wrote: >> Has anybody tried one of the DALLAS "smart socket" products with this >thingie? >Unfortunately the 48T02 is a TOD clock and calendar as well as NVRAM, so >there's no suitable SmartSocket to replace it. The registers have to be >at particular places and use a particular protocol too. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From spc at conman.org Tue May 22 22:10:19 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: ID computer In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" at May 22, 2001 06:31:43 PM Message-ID: <200105230310.XAA07715@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" once stated: > > On Tue, 22 May 2001, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > > > unit made by Cannon called the Cannon Cat any info on this would be most > > Jef Raskin's own site is at http://www.jefraskin.com/ . He has some very > > interesting ideas about UIs and I find his work facinating, although the > > average geek seem to miss his point (in the last year there have been two > > articles on Slashdot (http://slashdot.org/) about Jef Raskin and the general > > population there hasn't been kind to Jef). > > Raskin is brilliant, but what he likes is not going to be well received > here. By analogy, I think that an automatic transmission, automatic choke, > etc. are neat ideas, but I do NOT want them on MY car. I don't think that > I "miss the point", just that I prefer manual control of most systems, no > matter how "neat" or "clever" an automatic system is. Fair enough. Me, while I like knowing how the computer works, most of the time *I* don't care enough to manually tweak something, or babysit some annoyingly written piece of software. I want my computer to run without thought. And that probably explains why I drive an automatic car (it even turns the headlights on automatically). Sure, I know how a car works (generally, with some gaps in knowledge here and there) but I view it more as something to use. Same with most computers I work with (and that's one of my biggest gripes with poorly run Unix networks---babysitting the damn things [1]). > If you put a disk into a drive and the computer can't read it, do you WANT > the computer to go aghead and format it without asking? Similar to Unix and the ``rm'' command---make one slight mistake and well ... Have backup? Nothing worse than finding the ``rm'' command aliased to ``rm -i''. Yes! Yes! Delete the files! Aaaaaaah! /bin/rm blah blah. It depends on what you're used to. And when I read about that (in Microsoft's ``Programmers At Work''---great book by the way) I thought it was the coolest thing. I felt it made a lot of sense, but yes, I can see it being problematic in a heterogeneous setup, which I think is your concern. > The Cat DID have a mouse input. ("as do ALL cats") And Raskin claims > credit for the Mac having only one button on its mouse. (because 2 or > three buttons would be too "confusing") In his interview in ``Programmers at Work,'' he stated he didn't care for mice at all, as it forces you to relocate your hands from the keyboard to the mouse, and that most navigation could be done faster via the keyboard than with a mouse [3]. And his current work he mentions his dislike of the mouse. > I have heard that the particular > "confusion" was: > 1) the user would have to look away from the screen to see which button > they were pushing > 2) it is hard to explain to the user to push a specific button, but easy > to say "push THE button" If it was him (and not Jobs) those are valid reasons, but it's not too difficult to color the buttons differently (or put a pip on one of them like my keyboard here has pips on the `f' and `j' keys [4]) and label one the primary button the other the secondary button. But left handed people present another problem in which the buttons need to be reversed (easily enough via software). Ah well. > [BTW, if you velcro a PCJr keyboard to the top of a mouse, then you have > the RIGHT number of buttons, and no longer need to take your hand off of > the keyboard to mouse! (most other computers have keyboards that are too > massive to do that] That's still a pretty big keyboard (I'm looking at it right now). The idea of using the keyboard *as* the mouse (as in, the keyboard can slide around) is intriguing, but I'm not sure if I would want my keyboad to slide around like that. -spc (I really enjoy Raskin's work though ... ) [1] I work in the NOC (Network Operations Center) at a large company, so all I'm really concerned with is monitoring the network and servers (if something goes down, I call SA). No administration, no development. Some of the SAs are complaining about zombies [2] and it bugs *ME* (because I'm that way 8-) that the SAs have to manually go in and kill them (even if it's to run a shell script which does it). I know how to fix the programs causing the zombies and it's only a few lines of code (in C even!) that need to be added. But it's a large company. Sigh. [2] Zombies are zombie processes under Unix that are caused when a child process exits but the parent process doesn't check the status. They don't really consume any resources other than a process slot, but the fact they're there is annoying. [3] In my experience, that's true once you learn how to navigate a document via the keyboard. But there are some things I like using a mouse for though. [4] The Apple keyboards have the pips on the `d' and `k' keys, which annoys me, but I understand the reasoning behind Apple doing that (middle finger is longer than the rest and will hit the keyboard first, hence the pips on `d' and `k'). From tony.eros at machm.org Tue May 22 22:21:07 2001 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: OT - Nigerian Pigeon Drop Scam In-Reply-To: <3B0B22FF.9369DAE1@look.ca> References: <3B0B127C.DCFFC11B@look.ca> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010522231547.00aa1e30@mail.njd.concentric.com> Gee, I feel like I've finally arrived. This evening, I received the infamous Nigerian megabucks scam email (see below) Hey, this is a pretty infamous scam -- maybe I can sell this "Rare, collectable confidence scheme email" on eBay! :-) -- Tony --------------------------- From: Dr. Waziri Dongoyaro [mailto:kaza5005@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 10:28 PM To: Eros, Anthony Subject: Urgent Proposal REQUEST FOR ASSISTANCE - STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL I am Alhaji Waziri Dongoyaro, an Accountant in the Nigerian National Petroleum Corporation (NNPC) and I head a seven man tenders board in charge of Contract Awards and Payment Approvals. I came to know of you in my search for a reliable and reputable person to handle a very confidential transaction which involves the transfer of a huge sum of money to a foreign account. There were series of contracts executed by a Consortium of Multinationals in the oil industry in favour of NNPC among which were: (1) The expansion of the pipeline network within Nigeria for crude oil and downstream products distribution and subsequent evacuation - US$5 Billion (2) Contract for the Turn Around Maintenance (TAM) of the various Refineries in the country. (3) The construction of storage tanks for Petroleum Products (Depots) - US$90 Million The original value of these contracts were deliberately over-invoiced in the sum of USD Thirty Six Million, Five Hundred and Sixty One Thousand ($36,561,000.00) which has now been approved and is now ready to be transferred being that the companies that actually executed these contracts have fully been paid and the projects officially commissioned. Consequently, my colleagues and I are willing to transfer the total amount to your account for subsequent disbursement, since we as civil servants are prohibited by the Code of Conduct Bureau (Civil Service Laws) from opening and/or operating foreign accounts in our names. Needless to say, the trust reposed on you at this juncture is enormous. In return, we have agreed to offer you 25% of the transferred sum, while 10% shall be set aside for incidental expenses (internal and external) between the parties in the course of the transaction. You will be mandated to remit the balance to other accounts in due course. You must however NOTE that this transaction is subject to the following terms and conditions: a) Our conviction of your transparent honesty and diligence b) That you would treat this transaction with utmost secrecy and confidentiality c) That the funds would be transferred to an interest bearing account where the incidence of taxation would not exert a heavy toll. Modalities have been worked out at the highest levels of the Ministry of Finance and the Central Bank of Nigeria for the immediate transfer of funds within 14 working days subject to your satisfaction of the above stated terms. Our assurance is that your role is risk-free. To accord this transaction the legality it deserves and for mutual security of the fund, the whole approval procedures will be officially and legally processed with your name or the name of any company you may nominate as the bonafide beneficiary. Once more, I want you to understand that having put in over 19 years in the civil service of my country, I am averse to having my image and career dented. This matter should therefore be treated with utmost secrecy and urgency. Kindly expedite action as we are behind schedule to enable us include this transfer in the last batch within this quarter payment for the 2001 financial year. Contact me on Tel/Fax no. 234-1-7597613. e-mail: kaza5005@hotmail.com Reply is preferable by Fax number as the e-mail server is not reliable here. Yours sincerely, ALHAJI WAZIRI DONGOYARO 234-1-7597613. From foo at siconic.com Tue May 22 21:24:58 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: Canon Cat In-Reply-To: <3B0B127C.DCFFC11B@look.ca> Message-ID: This is new. Auctioning off items that haven't even been bought from the Goodwill yet. I hope they don't catch wind of this or they might demand a cut ;) Anyone interested in used luggage, golf clubs, and floral prints in cheaply made picture frames? Now taking bids! On Tue, 22 May 2001, Chris Halarewich wrote: > > hi > I have a bid of $70 us + shipping any others I will keep the bidding open > until Sunday at 7pm pacific time > thanx > chris > keep the bids comming > Chris > > > hi > If there is a enough interest in this Computer I will do a mini > auction on this list no ebay if you guys are interested it comes with the > compter/monitor the originalcannon printer and a video tape on how to run it > > and takers I live in Castlegar bc Canada all offers will be accepted in us > dollars+ shipping > Chris > > > Chandra Bajpai wrote: > > > Sounds good...let me know. > > -Chandra > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Chris Halarewich [mailto:halarewich@look.ca] > > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 8:58 PM > > To: Chandra Bajpai > > Subject: Re: Canon Cat > > > > As far as I know yes when I was at the salvation army all I could do was > > turn the main computer on type on the screen that still worked but the > > printer was becide it and not hooked up so that part I am not sure of > > chris > > > > Chandra Bajpai wrote: > > > > > Chris - I'll offer you $70...is it still working? > > > > > > -Chandra > > > > -- > > # Netscape POP3 State File > > # This is a generated file! Do not edit. > > -- > # Netscape POP3 State File > # This is a generated file! Do not edit. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue May 22 22:34:51 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: More items for the collection Message-ID: <015901c0e339$54d59b60$9f731fd1@default> Over the last few weeks it's been slow but I got few goodies that I an tell you about and some that I can't (not 10 years old yet). 1>Sharp PC-4600 laptop not able to test yet, need charger or new batteries for it. 2>Clear see-thru Milton Bradley SIMON 3>Sun Sparcstation 1+ 4>Epson Geneva PX-8 5>Telex 1174 Prodtype 1174-90R computer with a 079 Telex display terminal, and Telex KB. Not tested yet. 6>SEGA Genesis power base converter model 1620 7>Vintage IBM wiring programmer tool with collator programming manual That's it for now. Keep Computing From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue May 22 22:29:15 2001 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: OT - Nigerian Pigeon Drop Scam In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010522231547.00aa1e30@mail.njd.concentric.com> Message-ID: <20010523032915.15949.qmail@web9504.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Eros wrote: > Gee, I feel like I've finally arrived. This evening, I received the > infamous Nigerian megabucks scam email (see below) > > Hey, this is a pretty infamous scam -- maybe I can sell this "Rare, > collectable confidence scheme email" on eBay! :-) I've gotten multiple copies via snail mail. :-P Maybe _those_ are "L@@K RARE!" -ethan ===== Visit "The Seventh Continent" http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From foo at siconic.com Tue May 22 21:32:26 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: ID computer In-Reply-To: <200105230310.XAA07715@conman.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 May 2001, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > > If you put a disk into a drive and the computer can't read it, do you WANT > > the computer to go aghead and format it without asking? > > Similar to Unix and the ``rm'' command---make one slight mistake and well > ... Have backup? Nothing worse than finding the ``rm'' command aliased to > ``rm -i''. Yes! Yes! Delete the files! Aaaaaaah! /bin/rm blah blah. Well, not similar. In the case of the rm command, YOU tell the computer to do that. The other case is the computer assuming you want to do what might end up being a catastrophic action and then going ahead and doing it without your intervention (or at least asking you a simple Y or N question). > In his interview in ``Programmers at Work,'' he stated he didn't > care for mice at all, as it forces you to relocate your hands from the > keyboard to the mouse, and that most navigation could be done faster > via the keyboard than with a mouse [3]. And his current work he > mentions his dislike of the mouse. I'd have to agree there. Command line rules. The worst offenders of mouse overuse are those that will select a file in a window, go to the "File" pull-down menu, select "Delete", and then click on "Yes" to confirm. Why not just hit the DEL key DAMN IT!!!?? > [3] In my experience, that's true once you learn how to navigate a > document via the keyboard. But there are some things I like using > a mouse for though. Like selecting multiple items, then dragging and dropping them. Well, it's easier at least. Otherwise, I can do everything faster in a command line. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 22 22:34:27 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: ID computer In-Reply-To: <200105230310.XAA07715@conman.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 May 2001, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > > If you put a disk into a drive and the computer can't read it, do you WANT > > the computer to go aghead and format it without asking? > It depends on what you're used to. And when I read about that (in > Microsoft's ``Programmers At Work''---great book by the way) I thought it > was the coolest thing. I felt it made a lot of sense, but yes, I can see it > being problematic in a heterogeneous setup, which I think is your concern. In addition to a heterogeneous environment http://www.xenosoft.com/fmts.html there is also the issue that I would like a chance to try to manually recover data before the system wipes the disk. But for many people his system would be ideal. > > credit for the Mac having only one button on its mouse. (because 2 or > If it was him (and not Jobs) those are valid reasons, but it's not too Recently (YESTERDAY) he claimed credit for the decision (in a semi-private forum). I have no reason to doubt his word. > -spc (I really enjoy Raskin's work though ... ) He is well worth reading/listening to, regardless of whether one agrees with him! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From ip500 at home.com Tue May 22 22:44:13 2001 From: ip500 at home.com (ip500) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: Canon Cat References: Message-ID: <3B0B320D.CB37A2AB@home.com> And this is BETTER than eBay ??? How is it that this just sort of slides by and yet if you DARE to stick an eBay pointer up you get seriously flamed? It does keep it "in the family" [so to speak] but auctioning off something you don't even own [and will probably pay $10 for at Goodwill] ..... just seems even more "money grubbing and mercernary" than the eBay guys have been accused of. At least they have bought [and taken the risk] what they're selling. Craig {who often uses eBay, both buying & selling} Sellam Ismail wrote: > > This is new. Auctioning off items that haven't even been bought from the > Goodwill yet. I hope they don't catch wind of this or they might demand a > cut ;) > > Anyone interested in used luggage, golf clubs, and floral prints in > cheaply made picture frames? > > Now taking bids! > > On Tue, 22 May 2001, Chris Halarewich wrote: > > > > > hi > > I have a bid of $70 us + shipping any others I will keep the bidding open > > until Sunday at 7pm pacific time > > thanx > > chris > > keep the bids comming > > Chris > > > > > > hi > > If there is a enough interest in this Computer I will do a mini > > auction on this list no ebay if you guys are interested it comes with the > > compter/monitor the originalcannon printer and a video tape on how to run it > > > > and takers I live in Castlegar bc Canada all offers will be accepted in us > > dollars+ shipping > > Chris > > > > > > Chandra Bajpai wrote: > > > > > Sounds good...let me know. > > > -Chandra > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Chris Halarewich [mailto:halarewich@look.ca] > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 8:58 PM > > > To: Chandra Bajpai > > > Subject: Re: Canon Cat > > > > > > As far as I know yes when I was at the salvation army all I could do was > > > turn the main computer on type on the screen that still worked but the > > > printer was becide it and not hooked up so that part I am not sure of > > > chris > > > > > > Chandra Bajpai wrote: > > > > > > > Chris - I'll offer you $70...is it still working? > > > > > > > > -Chandra > > > > > > -- > > > # Netscape POP3 State File > > > # This is a generated file! Do not edit. > > > > -- > > # Netscape POP3 State File > > # This is a generated file! Do not edit. > > > > > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Tue May 22 23:00:52 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: How many transistors in the 6502 processor? References: <200105042348.QAA08786@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <3B0B35F4.D70943D5@aurora.regenstrief.org> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > >FWIW, the later 65CE02 deals with both these issues. You can "move" zero > > page > > >anywhere in memory you want on the fly (so that you can pick a memory > > page > > >and optimize access to it), and the stack pointer is now 16-bit. The > > 65CE02's > > >most well-known usage was in its guise as the CSG 4510 in the mythical > > >Commodore 65 (see > > > > > > Yes but can you push parameters onto the stack prior to the call? > > Not without some trickery. You'd have to pull two bytes (the return address), > pull the parameters, and then push the return address back on. Works but > kludgy. No improvement here over the vanilla 6502. I see, the 6502 draws a LOT of attention, mine too ... may be too late? Anyhow, having just revived my memories with a C=64 from ebay and looking into LUnix for it :-) I've been thinking about how to make stack frames on the 6502. Clearly with a stack between $0100 and $01ff it is a bit tight. But, if the 65CE02 should have a 16 bit SP, what should be the problem with putting arguments on the stack? Why do you need to move the return address? You don't pull the arguments, you LDA them! That's what the TSX opcode must be for after all, the X register acting as some sort of base pointer! caller: LDA argN PHA ... LDA arg1 PHA JSR callee TSX INX N TXS callee: TSX LDA $0101+1,X ; for arg1 ... LDA $0101+N,X ; for argN ... RTS See, no PLA involved at all. In fact as I remember the PHA and PLA opcodes where among the most cycle expensive you could have. So, one could even speed up the argument placement: caller: TSX DEX N TXS LDA arg1 STA $00FF+1,X ... LDA argN STA $00FF+N,X JSR callee TSX INX N TXS Just to challenge the 8-bit SP a little, let's put local variables onto the stack :-) callee: TSX DEX M ; reserve space for M local variables TXS LDA $00FF+1,X ; for loc1 ... LDA $00FF+M,X ; for locM ... LDA $0101+M+1,X; for arg1 ... LDA $0101+M+N,X; for argN ... TSX INX M TXS RTS Now we just need some frame-pointer mechainsm on the zero page and we can do everything the ix86 can do :-) It took me so many years to find out why the TSX makes sense :-) regards -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistent Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From foo at siconic.com Tue May 22 23:09:55 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (foo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: OT - Nigerian Pigeon Drop Scam Message-ID: <200105230409.VAA03325@siconic.com> I actually know of a guy that FELL for this scam! (not personally, but through my tax accountant ;) --- Tony Eros wrote: > Gee, I feel like I've finally arrived. This evening, I received the > infamous Nigerian megabucks scam email (see below) > > Hey, this is a pretty infamous scam -- maybe I can sell this "Rare, > collectable confidence scheme email" on eBay! :-) I've gotten multiple copies via snail mail. :-P Maybe _those_ are "L@@K RARE!" From ernestls at home.com Wed May 23 00:08:50 2001 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: Multitech Micro Professor III (missing keyboard) In-Reply-To: <200105230310.XAA07715@conman.org> Message-ID: I'm looking for a keyboard for this little computer, and I will gladly buy or trade for it if anyone has an extra. I'm not sure but I think an MPF II external keyboard will work with it to, if anyone has one of those. Thanks. Ernest From foo at siconic.com Tue May 22 23:20:05 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: Canon Cat In-Reply-To: <3B0B320D.CB37A2AB@home.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 May 2001, ip500 wrote: > And this is BETTER than eBay ??? How is it that this just sort > of slides by and yet if you DARE to stick an eBay pointer up you get > seriously flamed? It does keep it "in the family" [so to speak] but > auctioning off something you don't even own [and will probably pay $10 > for at Goodwill] ..... just seems even more "money grubbing and > mercernary" than the eBay guys have been accused of. At least they > have bought [and taken the risk] what they're selling. If you didn't catch the irony of my message, I find this "auction" to be so absurd that I am just laughing at it. No point in flaming it. It's a spontaneous-combustible. As long as the signal (on-topic good stuff) to noise (OT posts and ebay ads) stays barely respectable (i.e. 75% or better) then I won't bother complaining anymore. If it ever goes below that, I'll just unsubscribe. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jarkko.teppo at er-grp.com Wed May 23 00:34:03 2001 From: jarkko.teppo at er-grp.com (jarkko.teppo@er-grp.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: HP 300 In-Reply-To: <2244.543T1200T1325113optimus@canit.se>; from optimus@canit.se on Wed, May 23, 2001 at 02:12:24AM +0100 References: <990549550.3b0a962e35b6d@mail.er-grp.com> <2244.543T1200T1325113optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <20010523083403.B21700@mail.er-grp.com> On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 02:12:24AM +0100, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Jarkko Teppo skrev: > > It won't use a serial console, unless told so via a HIL keyboard. If I had a > HIL keyboard, I would not need a serial console. Weird. I've *always* though that it would go to serial if you remove the keyboard and/or the framebuffer. If I don't connect a HIL keyboard on mine it prints out Blaablaa blaa press R for local console. RS-232 is "remote console". > > >I love NFS as much as the next guy but if you start adding stuff > >like NFS, why not have vnodes (well, you better have!) and once > >you have vnodes why not start supporting different file systems... > >A bit much for a PDP :) > > Why not support different file systems? And what is a vnode? You'd better ask some resident PDP/2.11BSD guru but I can think of the (relatively) small address space, segmentation and the like. And at least I prefer running programs rather than just operating systems on my machines:) vnodes were originally an idea/implementation(?) by Sun: http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/355180.html Basically the vnode layer sits between the lower filesystem layers and system calls. Gives you coherent access to different filesystems. > > What is an Altos? > I'm going to find out:) -- jht From spc at conman.org Wed May 23 00:39:19 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: ID computer In-Reply-To: <200105230115.VAA06121@maynard.mail.mindspring.net> from "Louis Schulman" at May 22, 2001 09:15:27 PM Message-ID: <200105230539.BAA07868@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Louis Schulman once stated: > > On 23 May 2001 2:49:6 +0100, Iggy Drougge wrote: > > #Louis, is your interest purely academical, or do dedicated wordpro's > appeal to > #some of your base instincts? > #Please, enlighten us. ;-9 > # > As noted in another post, the Cannon Cat was much more than a dedicated > word processor, it was in fact a quite different technology that never > caught on. It is highly collectable, at least in THIS country. Are you talking about the US? Given the lack of information about it on the web, you'd think it was a little known computer that never really saw the light of day. My interest in it is from a software UI perspective. I would love to play around with one for a week or two to get a feel for how it works (from a user perspective). I have enough computers at home to worry about to add one that probably won't talk to the others. But I found the description Jef Raskin gave of the Swyft Card (from _Programers at Work_) fascinating and dead on at times. Enough to want to implement the system on modern machines some day. His work I think is being used, though not on general computers but the hand held market like the Palms and Newtons. Those pretty much *are* information appliances although far from what he (and Jobs) envisioned. -spc (Programmer at heart ... ) From jss at ou.edu Wed May 23 00:44:13 2001 From: jss at ou.edu (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: Austin Texas UT Auction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <990596653.3b0b4e2dad147@email.ou.edu> Holy cow! Please, *someone* get there and grab the 11/45, and the RA81s if you can. I live in the OKC metro area and can be down there in a jiffy with a truck to pick it all up. Please e-mail me if you can do this. I will reimburse you well! Quoting Reuben Reyes : > University of Texas at Austin will have an auction > tomorrow May 23, 2001 at JJ Pickle Research Campus > building 45. > > Here are some of the items > PDP 11/45 > RA81 x 3 > RA81 x 8 > Digital RL02 -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@ou.edu From marvin at rain.org Wed May 23 00:46:24 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: Listserver Auction, was Re: Canon Cat References: Message-ID: <3B0B4EB0.33EDA4DC@rain.org> Sellam Ismail wrote: > > On Tue, 22 May 2001, ip500 wrote: > > > And this is BETTER than eBay ??? How is it that this just sort > > of slides by and yet if you DARE to stick an eBay pointer up you get > > If you didn't catch the irony of my message, I find this "auction" to be > so absurd that I am just laughing at it. I, for one, think it is a great idea and have no problems at all with it! Among other things, it does away with the luck of being the first person to read a post and get the item. Also, it keeps the item in this community which is most likely a good thing. Another approach is to use the pre-approved bidder list on Ebay, and only approve people on this list to bid. From my standpoint, that might penalize the lurkers since *I* would only recognize the people that have posted in the past. OTOH, it might encourage people to post once in a while :). From marvin at rain.org Wed May 23 00:48:27 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: OT - Nigerian Pigeon Drop Scam References: <200105230409.VAA03325@siconic.com> Message-ID: <3B0B4F2B.D68281EA@rain.org> What exactly are the details of the scam? foo wrote: > > I actually know of a guy that FELL for this scam! > > (not personally, but through my tax accountant ;) > > --- Tony Eros wrote: > > Gee, I feel like I've finally arrived. This evening, I received the > > infamous Nigerian megabucks scam email (see below) > > > > Hey, this is a pretty infamous scam -- maybe I can sell this "Rare, > > collectable confidence scheme email" on eBay! :-) > > I've gotten multiple copies via snail mail. :-P Maybe _those_ are > "L@@K RARE!" From halarewich at look.ca Wed May 23 01:40:03 2001 From: halarewich at look.ca (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: Canon Cat References: <3B0B127C.DCFFC11B@look.ca> <3B0B22FF.9369DAE1@look.ca> Message-ID: <3B0B5B43.7193F8A9@look.ca> Hello Just to let everyone know I have the computer on hold at the store until tomorrow(wed) and I WILL be picking it up tomorrow thank you Chris Chris Halarewich wrote: > up to $100 now > chris > Hi Chris, > > I'll bid $100+ shipping > > Curt > > Chris Halarewich wrote: > > > hi > > I have a bid of $70 us + shipping any others I will keep the bidding open > > until Sunday at 7pm pacific time > > thanx > > chris > > keep the bids comming > > Chris > > > > hi > > If there is a enough interest in this Computer I will do a mini > > auction on this list no ebay if you guys are interested it comes with the > > compter/monitor the originalcannon printer and a video tape on how to run it > > > > and takers I live in Castlegar bc Canada all offers will be accepted in us > > dollars+ shipping > > Chris > > > > Chandra Bajpai wrote: > > > > > Sounds good...let me know. > > > -Chandra > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Chris Halarewich [mailto:halarewich@look.ca] > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 8:58 PM > > > To: Chandra Bajpai > > > Subject: Re: Canon Cat > > > > > > As far as I know yes when I was at the salvation army all I could do was > > > turn the main computer on type on the screen that still worked but the > > > printer was becide it and not hooked up so that part I am not sure of > > > chris > > > > > > Chandra Bajpai wrote: > > > > > > > Chris - I'll offer you $70...is it still working? > > > > > > > > -Chandra > > > > > > -- > > > # Netscape POP3 State File > > > # This is a generated file! Do not edit. > > > > -- > > # Netscape POP3 State File > > # This is a generated file! Do not edit. > > -- > # Netscape POP3 State File > # This is a generated file! Do not edit. -- # Netscape POP3 State File # This is a generated file! Do not edit. From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Wed May 23 01:44:45 2001 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:41 2005 Subject: OT - Nigerian Pigeon Drop Scam In-Reply-To: <3B0B4F2B.D68281EA@rain.org> from Marvin at "May 22, 2001 10:48:27 pm" Message-ID: <20010523064454Z433768-20034+54@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > What exactly are the details of the scam? There are several variations, but the basic scheme starts with a story about how this person has obtained a large sum of money they need to move out of the country. There is some reason why they can't do it themselves (they are being watched, the money was obtained illegally, they are on the run, etc). After you get drawn into the scam, they tell you: 1) They need some money to cover expenses (bribe a bank official, pay bank charges etc) 2) They need an account to transfer the money to. So they ask for the details of your bank account and permission to deposit and withdraw. They explain this as a money laundering scheme. After this your bank account is emptied. After you have done one of the two above, you don't hear from them again (unless you end up on a sucker list and get hit with the same scam again). -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca McCalla Professor (780) 492-4584 Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From wstan at localhostnl.demon.nl Wed May 23 04:08:23 2001 From: wstan at localhostnl.demon.nl (William Staniewicz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: OT - Nigerian Pigeon Drop Scam In-Reply-To: <20010523064454Z433768-20034+54@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca>; from mark@cs.ualberta.ca on Wed, May 23, 2001 at 12:44:45AM -0600 References: <3B0B4F2B.D68281EA@rain.org> <20010523064454Z433768-20034+54@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <20010523090823.A1336@localhostnl.demon.nl> Another variation on this: Maybe 5 years ago I got a letter in the mail proposing the same thing. Out of curiosity, I sent a reply to them via fax. There were a few fax exchanges that followed the scenerio as mentioned below. I did not get involved any further. On a sadder note, some people I heard got pulled into the scam to the point where they went to Nigeria in person. I understand from newspaper reports they were held hostage and a ransom was demanded. In these cases the hostages were killed even after payment was made. Beware... -Bill Amsterdam On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 12:44:45AM -0600, Mark Green wrote: > > What exactly are the details of the scam? > > There are several variations, but the basic scheme starts > with a story about how this person has obtained a large > sum of money they need to move out of the country. There From engdahl at cle.ab.com Wed May 23 07:23:36 2001 From: engdahl at cle.ab.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: Wanted: iAPX-432 References: <228C5EBB26701542946C14D5205AE6D5011B27A9@pnlmse08.pnl.gov> Message-ID: <004d01c0e383$30e7ea60$654199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> I didn't realize that they had ever shipped the chip. I have a set of manuals, probably early. There seemed to be a lot of holes in the architecture -- things that weren't explained, or perhaps had not yet been figured out. I wanted to get my hands on one a long time ago, but they dropped it before I ever saw the possibility of geting a chip. I never did figure out how they implemented their garbage collection. -- Jonathan Engdahl Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer 24800 Tungsten Road Advanced Technology Euclid, OH 44117 USA Euclid Labs engdahl@cle.ab.com 216-266-6409 From jhfine at idirect.com Wed May 23 07:52:00 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: Needed: ISO 128 or 230MB MO cartridge References: <01May22.083141edt.119043@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <3B0BB270.4C4555FB@idirect.com> >Jeff Hellige wrote: > Does anyone have any ISO standard 128 or 230MB 3-1/2" MO catridges > they would be willing to part with? Jerome Fine replies: While I find that eBay is rarely a reasonable place to buy such items, on rare occasions (probably less than 10% of the auctions), you can find hardware that has a reasonable price. Recently, I did a follow up on some 5 1/4" magneto optical cartridges (they are usually under the heading of "optical disks" on eBay) that were for sale and the fellow had 400 more at a price that was less than the cost of shipping. I also purchased two drives. If anyone needs 5 1/4" cartridges, he may still have some - 295 Mbytes per side - 512 bytes per sector - total capacity 590 MBytes. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From jss at ou.edu Wed May 23 08:20:15 2001 From: jss at ou.edu (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: Austin Texas UT Auction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <990624015.3b0bb90f62376@email.ou.edu> Quoting Reuben Reyes : > University of Texas at Austin will have an auction > > Here are some of the items > PDP 11/45 FYI, I called and talked to the auctioneer. I don't think they have a PDP11/45 there. They have a /44 that is part of the VAX 8600 lot, but no /45. I *did* coach him quite well on what to look for. At any rate, I got my bid in on the 15-cabinet (!) VAX 8600 lot over the phone. Now all of you stay AWAY! -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@ou.edu From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1687.monmouth.com Wed May 23 08:37:52 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1687.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: vax8600 In-Reply-To: <990624015.3b0bb90f62376@email.ou.edu> from "Jeffrey S. Sharp" at "May 23, 2001 08:20:15 am" Message-ID: <200105231337.f4NDbqn14556@bg-tc-ppp1687.monmouth.com> > Quoting Reuben Reyes : > > University of Texas at Austin will have an auction > > > > Here are some of the items > > PDP 11/45 > > FYI, I called and talked to the auctioneer. I don't think they > have a PDP11/45 there. They have a /44 that is part of the VAX > 8600 lot, but no /45. I *did* coach him quite well on what to look > for. > > At any rate, I got my bid in on the 15-cabinet (!) VAX 8600 lot > over the phone. Now all of you stay AWAY! > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@ou.edu > > Cool... Wait until you try to power the 8600 beast up... got your own nuke plant? Great box... and you can run RT11 v5 on the front end as an adventure games box!! If you're lucky it's an 8650 by now. That was a field upgrade. Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From optimus at canit.se Wed May 23 09:26:24 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: Listserver Auction, was Re: Canon Cat In-Reply-To: <3B0B4EB0.33EDA4DC@rain.org> Message-ID: <856.543T1200T9264681optimus@canit.se> Marvin skrev: >Sellam Ismail wrote: >> >> On Tue, 22 May 2001, ip500 wrote: >> >> > And this is BETTER than eBay ??? How is it that this just sort >> > of slides by and yet if you DARE to stick an eBay pointer up you get >> >> If you didn't catch the irony of my message, I find this "auction" to be >> so absurd that I am just laughing at it. >I, for one, think it is a great idea and have no problems at all with it! >Among other things, it does away with the luck of being the first person to >read a post and get the item. Also, it keeps the item in this community >which is most likely a good thing. I'm very annoyed indeed by spome idiot posting an ever-growing message consisting of one "Now it's up at a hundra bucks" line and 300 line sof quoted material (below the addition, mind you!). Several times a day. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Wed May 23 09:39:49 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: HP 300 In-Reply-To: <20010523083403.B21700@mail.er-grp.com> Message-ID: <1869.543T2450T9395887optimus@canit.se> jarkko.teppo skrev: >On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 02:12:24AM +0100, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> Jarkko Teppo skrev: >> >> It won't use a serial console, unless told so via a HIL keyboard. If I had >> a HIL keyboard, I would not need a serial console. >Weird. I've *always* though that it would go to serial if you remove >the keyboard and/or the framebuffer. If I don't connect a HIL >keyboard on mine it prints out Blaablaa blaa press R for local console. >RS-232 is "remote console". At least the NetBSD FAQ says that one has to go via the keyboard for the 380. Removing the framebuffer yielded nothing. I suppose I should have a go with a real terminal the next time. >> >I love NFS as much as the next guy but if you start adding stuff >> >like NFS, why not have vnodes (well, you better have!) and once >> >you have vnodes why not start supporting different file systems... >> >A bit much for a PDP :) >> >> Why not support different file systems? And what is a vnode? >You'd better ask some resident PDP/2.11BSD guru but I can think >of the (relatively) small address space, segmentation and the like. >And at least I prefer running programs rather than just operating >systems on my machines:) LOL, there's a difference between us. Most of my computers perform no useful tasks at all. >vnodes were originally an idea/implementation(?) by Sun: >http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/355180.html >Basically the vnode layer sits between the lower filesystem layers and >system calls. Gives you coherent access to different filesystems. My, isn't that an *hrm* novel, interesting and new-fangled idea. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Among the best Swedish achievements are those that closely combine social and architectural developments, such as the carefully planned new towns built in recent years outside Stockholm: V?llingby and Farsta. J.M. Richards, Modern Architecture From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed May 23 08:58:31 2001 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: OT - Nigerian Pigeon Drop Scam In-Reply-To: <200105230409.VAA03325@siconic.com> Message-ID: <20010523135831.47024.qmail@web9506.mail.yahoo.com> --- foo wrote: > > I actually know of a guy that FELL for this scam! > > (not personally, but through my tax accountant ;) I got my first one in hard copy around 1986 when I was in college. Since I had no assets and no earthly reason someone should contact me about this kind of financial activity, it was clearly a scam... I mean who would want to clean out a bank account with $0.15 in it? What I wonder is why Nigeria? They all seem to come from Nigeria. > --- Tony Eros wrote: > > ...I received the infamous Nigerian megabucks scam email (see below) > > I wrote: > I've gotten multiple copies via snail mail. ===== Visit "The Seventh Continent" http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed May 23 09:06:49 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: HP 300 In-Reply-To: <2244.543T1200T1325113optimus@canit.se> References: <990549550.3b0a962e35b6d@mail.er-grp.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010523100607.00a504b0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Iggy, I have some HP-HIL keyboards. Contact me off-line if you still need one. Joe At 02:12 AM 5/23/01 +0100, you wrote: >Jarkko Teppo skrev: > > >Quoting Iggy Drougge : > > >> jarkko.teppo skrev: > >> > >> Tell that to the braindamaged ROM in my 380. Shame on you, HP! > > >In what way it's braindamaged ? > >It won't use a serial console, unless told so via a HIL keyboard. If I had a >HIL keyboard, I would not need a serial console. > > >> I've never suffered NAT, I just suffer a modem and high telephony > >> costs. > >> What I worry about is whether IPv6 will work on all my machines. Then > >> I > >> worry that IP numbers will be too long for me to remember. > > >Without getting into details it's an interesting experience trying > >to get a netblock these days. Most likely you can lease a /32 for > >kazillion bucks a month. RIPE isn't softening up with IPv6 however, > >if you want a block of your own you need to be peering with three > >other providers. Life's hard. > >I really object to how everything costs and arm and a leg on today's net. >Unless it's financed via ads and popup windows, which is no better. > > >> >> And why shouldn't one expect NFS support from 2.2BSD? > >> > >> >hmm, the gains aren't worth it ? > >> > >> Aren't the advantages of NFS apparent? > > >I love NFS as much as the next guy but if you start adding stuff > >like NFS, why not have vnodes (well, you better have!) and once > >you have vnodes why not start supporting different file systems... > >A bit much for a PDP :) > >Why not support different file systems? And what is a vnode? > > >So choice is good. My current testing gateway to the internet is a > >486-75MHz, 8/500MB with NetBSD-1.5 and Lucent WLAN card. > >The basestation is somewhere within 1 km. I'm rambling, better stop. > >I've got some metres of "broadband" above my door. One day, it will go into my >flat. OTOH, I don't see any reason to use all that fancy firewalling or NAT >stuff. > > >To get back to classiccmp, I'm going to check out a pile of Altos > >machines tomorrow, Altos 686 and other models. All had their hard > >drives ripped out. > >What is an Altos? > >-- >En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > >"Auf Sparc-Maschinen ist Linux weit weniger gut. Auf Maschinen mit sun4 >Architektur ist NetBSD etwa 30% schneller. Wer auf so einer Maschine >Linux faehrt tut es aus ideologischen Gruenden oder kennt nichts anderes." >Aus: de.comp.os.unix.misc, "Was ist schneller?" From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Wed May 23 09:13:08 2001 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: Wanted: iAPX-432 Message-ID: <20010523.091638.-16707607.2.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Wed, 23 May 2001 08:23:36 -0400 "Jonathan Engdahl" writes: > I didn't realize that they had ever shipped the chip. I have a set of > manuals, probably early. There seemed to be a lot of holes in the > architecture -- things that weren't explained, or perhaps had not > yet been figured out. I wanted to get my hands on one a long time ago, > but they dropped it before I ever saw the possibility of geting a chip. > I never did figure out how they implemented their garbage collection. ^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^ Well that certainly explains why the chip never saw the light of day; Bill G. must have stomped all over this one. Porting Windows to it would have proved impossible, since pretty much the entire Windows system is 'garbage'. :^> Sorry guys, couldn't resist . . . Jeff ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed May 23 09:50:03 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: Wanted: iAPX-432 In-Reply-To: <20010523.091638.-16707607.2.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010523104922.00a01ec0@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 09:13 AM 5/23/01 -0500, Jeff wrote: >On Wed, 23 May 2001 08:23:36 -0400 "Jonathan Engdahl" > writes: > > I didn't realize that they had ever shipped the chip. I have a set of > > manuals, probably early. There seemed to be a lot of holes in the > > architecture -- things that weren't explained, or perhaps had not > > yet been figured out. I wanted to get my hands on one a long time ago, > > but they dropped it before I ever saw the possibility of geting a chip. > > > I never did figure out how they implemented their garbage collection. > ^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^ > >Well that certainly explains why the chip never saw the light of day; >Bill G. must have stomped all over this one. Porting Windows to it >would have proved impossible, since pretty much the entire Windows >system is 'garbage'. :^> > >Sorry guys, couldn't resist . . . Hey, the truth hurts! Joe >Jeff > > > >________________________________________________________________ >GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! >Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! >Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From dittman at dittman.net Wed May 23 10:13:29 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: Wanted: iAPX-432 In-Reply-To: <004d01c0e383$30e7ea60$654199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> from "Jonathan Engdahl" at May 23, 2001 08:23:36 AM Message-ID: <200105231513.f4NFDTo02968@narnia.int.dittman.net> > I didn't realize that they had ever shipped the chip. I have a set of > manuals, probably early. There seemed to be a lot of holes in the > architecture -- things that weren't explained, or perhaps had not yet been > figured out. I wanted to get my hands on one a long time ago, but they > dropped it before I ever saw the possibility of geting a chip. I never did > figure out how they implemented their garbage collection. I remember attending a presentation by one of the engineers working on the processor. The presentation was interesting and I wanted to get some samples, but I lost interest after all the delays. I could be completely off, but didn't some of the processor features get implemented in the i860? -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From emu at ecubics.com Wed May 23 10:25:55 2001 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: Wanted: iAPX-432 References: <200105231513.f4NFDTo02968@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <3B0BD683.EAA00AD2@ecubics.com> Eric Dittman wrote: > all the delays. I could be completely off, but didn't some > of the processor features get implemented in the i860? Yes. Was slow too ;-) From foo at siconic.com Wed May 23 09:38:08 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: Listserver Auction, was Re: Canon Cat In-Reply-To: <3B0B4EB0.33EDA4DC@rain.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 May 2001, Marvin wrote: > I, for one, think it is a great idea and have no problems at all with it! > Among other things, it does away with the luck of being the first person to > read a post and get the item. Also, it keeps the item in this community > which is most likely a good thing. Well, here's my take on it, at least with this particular instance in mind. Personally, if I saw something in a Goodwill that I wasn't familiar with, and I posted about it to the list, and everyone responded with "GRAB IT! R@RE!!!", then I would probably go grab it so that I could give it to someone on the list. If there were multiple people interested in it and it mattered, I'd do some sort of lottery (pick a number from 0 to 65535) and then give it to whomever came closest (they pay shipping). I certainly wouldn't decide to capitalize on this find and hold an auction (greed). There's just something inconsistent with good taste and community spirit about that. Is this Canon Cat still at Goodwill? What happens if the guy holding this "auction" goes back to get it and it's gone? Then everyone soiled their pants over nothing, especially he, since his dreams of being able to make enough money from this to afford that new microwave oven to cook his fish sticks in are dashed! On many occasions I have found things that I figured other people would want and have paid my own money to acquire and then send to them, many times without asking for reimbursement. I would hope for the same in return from other members of this community (and in fact it has just recently happened, thanks Rich B.!!!, and also many times in the past, thanks Jeff H.!!!) In fact, coincidentally, I once found a Canon Cat at a local ham fest. Knowing that a friend had been wanting one, and being that I already had one, I bought it for him and gave it to him (though I can't remember if I made him reimburse me or not :) Does he owe me $100 or whatever the current bid is on the one in question now? Well, if he feels guilty about it (and he knows who he is ;) then I'll let him buy me a sandwich or something the next time he sees me (or he can help schlep stuff around). > Another approach is to use the pre-approved bidder list on Ebay, and > only approve people on this list to bid. From my standpoint, that > might penalize the lurkers since *I* would only recognize the people > that have posted in the past. OTOH, it might encourage people to post > once in a while :). At least it would take it off CC where it doesn't belong and onto eBay where it does :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Wed May 23 09:39:36 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: Canon Cat In-Reply-To: <3B0B5B43.7193F8A9@look.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 May 2001, Chris Halarewich wrote: > Just to let everyone know I have the computer on hold at the store until > tomorrow(wed) and I WILL be picking it up tomorrow Afraid you'll be out $7 if all the bidders suddenly back out? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From marvin at rain.org Wed May 23 10:39:09 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: Listserver Auction, was Re: Canon Cat References: <856.543T1200T9264681optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3B0BD99D.BA7F083A@rain.org> Iggy Drougge wrote: > > Marvin skrev: > > >I, for one, think it is a great idea and have no problems at all with it! > >Among other things, it does away with the luck of being the first person to > >read a post and get the item. Also, it keeps the item in this community > >which is most likely a good thing. > > I'm very annoyed indeed by spome idiot posting an ever-growing message > consisting of one "Now it's up at a hundra bucks" line and 300 line sof quoted > material (below the addition, mind you!). Several times a day. Instead of just complaining, offer a reasonable alternative!!!!! I have no problems with it since it keeps everyone informed about where the current bid is. From foo at siconic.com Wed May 23 09:42:12 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: OT - Nigerian Pigeon Drop Scam In-Reply-To: <20010523090823.A1336@localhostnl.demon.nl> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 May 2001, William Staniewicz wrote: > Another variation on this: > > Maybe 5 years ago I got a letter in the mail proposing > the same thing. Out of curiosity, I sent a reply > to them via fax. There were a few fax exchanges > that followed the scenerio as mentioned below. > I did not get involved any further. > > On a sadder note, some people I heard got pulled into the scam > to the point where they went to Nigeria in person. I understand > from newspaper reports they were held hostage and a ransom > was demanded. In these cases the hostages were killed > even after payment was made. > > Beware... Beware? Excuse me for being so callously blunt but anyone falling for this and then getting killed as a result should be a candidate for the Darwin Awards. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Wed May 23 09:45:00 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: OT - Nigerian Pigeon Drop Scam In-Reply-To: <20010523135831.47024.qmail@web9506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 May 2001, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I got my first one in hard copy around 1986 when I was in college. > Since I had no assets and no earthly reason someone should contact me > about this kind of financial activity, it was clearly a scam... I mean > who would want to clean out a bank account with $0.15 in it? > > What I wonder is why Nigeria? They all seem to come from Nigeria. Nigeria is like the scam capital of the world. I have no idea why. Lax laws? Government complicity? A weakened sense of morals? :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From dittman at dittman.net Wed May 23 10:53:58 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: Wanted: iAPX-432 In-Reply-To: <3B0BD683.EAA00AD2@ecubics.com> from "emanuel stiebler" at May 23, 2001 09:25:55 AM Message-ID: <200105231553.f4NFrwW03122@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > all the delays. I could be completely off, but didn't some > > of the processor features get implemented in the i860? > > Yes. Was slow too ;-) The i860 did find success as an embedded controller, though. I never did look at the i960 features; was it an improved i860 or was it a completely new processor? -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 23 10:45:39 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: ID computer In-Reply-To: <200105230310.XAA07715@conman.org> References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010523101022.01d66e50@pc> At 11:10 PM 5/22/01 -0400, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: >In his interview in ``Programmers at Work,'' he stated he didn't care for >mice at all, as it forces you to relocate your hands from the keyboard to >the mouse, and that most navigation could be done faster via the keyboard >than with a mouse [3]. And his current work he mentions his dislike of the >mouse. >[3] In my experience, that's true once you learn how to navigate a > document via the keyboard. But there are some things I like using > a mouse for though. It's interesting to note that another Apple-raised interface theorist, Bruce Tognazzini, http://www.asktog.com/ believes (and claims to have tested and proved) that keyboard-based, chording shortcut users engage in a momentary lapse of consciousness in which they recall and then position their hands for the keystroke, and that although they *think* they're faster than a mouse, they're not. See his 1991 book "Tog on Interface", where he claims in the 80s Apple performed $50M in tests that showed that people consistently reported believing that keyboarding (using shortcuts, etc.) was faster than mousing, yet the stopwatch consistently showed that mousing was faster than keyboarding. His explanation for this is that deciding among abstract symbols is a high-level cognitive function, and that this decision is not only boring, but that the user experiences near-amnesia in the approximately two seconds needed to remember the chord keystroke. On the other hand, Tog also argues that two-handed chords (think the handy cut-and-paste CTRL/C /V) result in solid productivity gains. Around page 180, where in fact he discusses Raskin's Cat interface and the decision to use a single dedicated key for operations such as "Find", Tog admits was actually fifty times faster than the Mac's mouse-move. This reminds me of the old joke about voice interface word processors: "Up, up, up, left, left, left, left, no right, stop, yes, right there ... delete that word." Or the other half of the joke, where people poke their head over a cubicle wall and shout a command like "format c: yes i am sure". - John From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 23 10:52:28 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: ID computer In-Reply-To: References: <200105230310.XAA07715@conman.org> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010523104711.01d6a100@pc> At 07:32 PM 5/22/01 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: >Like selecting multiple items, then dragging and dropping them. Well, >it's easier at least. Otherwise, I can do everything faster in a command >line. OK, let's race. I think it's easy to think of counter-examples, even though I'm a fan of command-line power in the right situation. Given a folder full of 100 documents with long, human-friendly filenames with no relevant pattern involving strings of characters or dates, delete a given random set of 50 of those files. I'll use any windowing system, you'll use 'del' or 'rm'. I think an extended select (via CTRL) and a drag to the trash would win on either Mac or Windows, don't you? While 'rm' might have an interactive "yes/no" option, which other command-line tools have it? Sure, you can write anything in a script... - John From dbetz at vmlabs.com Wed May 23 11:49:32 2001 From: dbetz at vmlabs.com (David Betz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: VAX Equipment Message-ID: <17cc01c0e3a8$586419e0$b423010a@dbnh> I would like to find a good home for the following equipment. I'm not interested in making money off of this equipment but I don't want to have to pack it for shipping either. I would like someone to come by and pick it up or arrange for a place to meet somewhere near where I live. I'm in southern New Hampshire near Manchester. 1. VAXStation II/GPX (VS21W-K2) 2. VAXStation 2000 (VS410-AA) 3. External Hard Drive (RZ55-AA) 4. External Tape Drive (TK50Z-GA) Anyone interested in this stuff? From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Wed May 23 11:47:46 2001 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: Exidy Sorcerer Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0007A287@BUSH02> Besides, the UK doesn't seem all that well off according to what I've read. UK ground is not the same as continental earth. I think it's got to do with the lines being earthed at the station, whereas the continental earth lead goes to UK mains earth is bonded to the neutral and to the earth spike at the local transformer. It should also be bonded to earth at the property and, if the run from the tramsformer to the property is a long one, it will have more earth points along the way (PME - protective multiple earth). A bit safer than a rod in the ground here and one way over there. Lee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). 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For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp From liste at artware.qc.ca Wed May 23 11:55:09 2001 From: liste at artware.qc.ca (liste@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: ID computer In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010523104711.01d6a100@pc> Message-ID: On 23-May-2001 John Foust wrote: > At 07:32 PM 5/22/01 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: >>Like selecting multiple items, then dragging and dropping them. Well, >>it's easier at least. Otherwise, I can do everything faster in a >>command line. > > OK, let's race. I think it's easy to think of counter-examples, > even though I'm a fan of command-line power in the right situation. Assuming unix: ls >something vi something # now you go through and remove the files you want to keep rm `echo something` # echo something | xargs rm The longest step by far is the "vi something" to weed out the files you want, which is pretty much the same as ctrl-clicking, and less error prone (see below). Note, also, that something will contain "something" (at least it does on gnu/linux and bash) so it cleans itself up. > Given a folder full of 100 documents with long, human-friendly > filenames with no relevant pattern involving strings of characters > or dates, delete a given random set of 50 of those files. I'll use > any windowing system, you'll use 'del' or 'rm'. I think an extended > select (via CTRL) and a drag to the trash would win on either Mac or > Windows, don't you? Only if you don't mess up and release the ctrl key at some inoportune moment, there-by requiring you reselect everything. Also, average users (as opposed to advanced) don't know that ctrl-click allows them to select multiple items. > While 'rm' might have an interactive "yes/no" option, which > other command-line tools have it? Sure, you can write anything > in a script... Creative use of `xargs -n 1 -p` will add this capability to any other command. [1] Now, before you think I'm a command-line bigot, I should point out that this level of prowess and speed is pretty much reserved for the hard core geeks and that GUIs are probably much simpler for the average user. -Philip [1] "The xargs utility shall conform to the Base Definitions volume of IEEE Std 1003.1-200x, Section 2." [2] But i don't know if -n or -p are GNU extentions [2] POSIX [3] [3] Since when does classiccmp have ASR-style footnotes? From spc at conman.org Wed May 23 11:59:30 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: ID computer In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010523104711.01d6a100@pc> from "John Foust" at May 23, 2001 10:52:28 AM Message-ID: <200105231659.MAA08373@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great John Foust once stated: > > At 07:32 PM 5/22/01 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: > >Like selecting multiple items, then dragging and dropping them. Well, > >it's easier at least. Otherwise, I can do everything faster in a command > >line. > > OK, let's race. I think it's easy to think of counter-examples, > even though I'm a fan of command-line power in the right situation. > > Given a folder full of 100 documents with long, human-friendly > filenames with no relevant pattern involving strings of characters > or dates, delete a given random set of 50 of those files. I'll use > any windowing system, you'll use 'del' or 'rm'. I think an extended > select (via CTRL) and a drag to the trash would win on either Mac or > Windows, don't you? > > While 'rm' might have an interactive "yes/no" option, which > other command-line tools have it? Sure, you can write anything > in a script... Again, it depends. A modern CLI (under Unix) with filename completion may be just as fast: rm "Report"Picture ofSte"Picture of myon... And so on. Okay, so I'm a fast touch typist so it might be an even race (even if the list is alphabetical on the GUI side). But if the list is in a file, it would be just as easy to do: rm `cat list-o-files` And be done with it, no convoluted shell scripts 8-) Or, you did say delete a random set of 50 of those files, so: rm `ls -f -1 | head -50` Delete the first 50 files in the order that they appear on the disk, and not alphabetically (which, depending on the order they were created, is just as random). -spc (I guess it depends upon how much you know of the environment) From rdd at smart.net Wed May 23 12:05:33 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: Listserver Auction, was Re: Canon Cat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 23 May 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Personally, if I saw something in a Goodwill that I wasn't familiar with, > and I posted about it to the list, and everyone responded with "GRAB IT! > R@RE!!!", then I would probably go grab it so that I could give it to > someone on the list. If there were multiple people interested in it and > it mattered, I'd do some sort of lottery (pick a number from 0 to 65535) > and then give it to whomever came closest (they pay shipping). I Whatever happened to the first person to respond to a posting of something for sale or for free to be the one to get it? That's how it used to be on Usenet for many years, and it always worked out quite well; that seems to be the fairest way to sell or give away something. ...of course, things have certainly changed since the masses invaded the 'net. That's also basically it works when one responds to a newspaper ad, or sees some equipment at a hamfest, etc. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From LFessen106 at aol.com Wed May 23 12:03:32 2001 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: VAX Equipment Message-ID: <104.3c65740.283d4764@aol.com> In a message dated 5/23/01 12:47:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dbetz@vmlabs.com writes: > I would like to find a good home for the following equipment. I'm not > interested in making money off of this equipment but I don't want to have to > pack it for shipping either. I would like someone to come by and pick it up > or arrange for a place to meet somewhere near where I live. I'm in southern > New Hampshire near Manchester. > > 1. VAXStation II/GPX (VS21W-K2) > > 2. VAXStation 2000 (VS410-AA) > > 3. External Hard Drive (RZ55-AA) > > 4. External Tape Drive (TK50Z-GA) > > Anyone interested in this stuff? > Me Absolutely! Just let me know! I have been looking for a bigger VAX for months and couldn't seem to find any in the US on the east coast that I could get to. I'll give 'em a nice home right next to my VS3100m38 :-) BTW, just out of curiosity, what OS are they currently running? -Linc Fessenden In The Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... Calculating in binary code is as easy as 01,10,11. From spc at conman.org Wed May 23 12:06:19 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: ID computer In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010523101022.01d66e50@pc> from "John Foust" at May 23, 2001 10:45:39 AM Message-ID: <200105231706.NAA08388@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great John Foust once stated: > > See his 1991 book "Tog on Interface", where he claims in the 80s > Apple performed $50M in tests that showed that people consistently > reported believing that keyboarding (using shortcuts, etc.) was faster > than mousing, yet the stopwatch consistently showed that mousing was > faster than keyboarding. > > His explanation for this is that deciding among abstract symbols is > a high-level cognitive function, and that this decision is not only > boring, but that the user experiences near-amnesia in the approximately > two seconds needed to remember the chord keystroke. On the other hand, > Tog also argues that two-handed chords (think the handy cut-and-paste > CTRL/C /V) result in solid productivity gains. > > Around page 180, where in fact he discusses Raskin's Cat interface and > the decision to use a single dedicated key for operations such as "Find", > Tog admits was actually fifty times faster than the Mac's mouse-move. Hold on a second ... according to Tog, which is faster? He seems to be arguing out both sides of his mouth here. First he says the mouse is faster, then the keyboard. It can't be both. And was Apple testing people who *could* type, or *couldn't*? And if this was in the 80s, then that was with Apple keyboards that didn't have a numeric keypad/editing pad, or (on the later keyboards) the separate editing keys *and* the numeric keypad. -spc (But there's a reason why Raskin's ``Find'' function was 50 times faster ... ) From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed May 23 12:23:30 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp me) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: VAX Equipment Message-ID: <381767478.990638610475.JavaMail.root@web621-wrb.mail.com> David, If nobody steps up to the plate I'd pick them up. I work in Hudson NH so I'm maybe 20 minutes down the road. We could meet. Allison ------Original Message------ From: "David Betz" To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Sent: May 23, 2001 4:49:32 PM GMT Subject: VAX Equipment I would like to find a good home for the following equipment. I'm not interested in making money off of this equipment but I don't want to have to pack it for shipping either. I would like someone to come by and pick it up or arrange for a place to meet somewhere near where I live. I'm in southern New Hampshire near Manchester. 1. VAXStation II/GPX (VS21W-K2) 2. VAXStation 2000 (VS410-AA) 3. External Hard Drive (RZ55-AA) 4. External Tape Drive (TK50Z-GA) Anyone interested in this stuff? From liste at artware.qc.ca Wed May 23 12:28:17 2001 From: liste at artware.qc.ca (liste@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: ID computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 23-May-2001 liste@artware.qc.ca wrote: > rm `echo something` # echo something | xargs rm Eeek! Change this to rm `cat something` -Philip From foo at siconic.com Wed May 23 11:32:16 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: ID computer In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010523104711.01d6a100@pc> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 May 2001, John Foust wrote: > At 07:32 PM 5/22/01 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: > >Like selecting multiple items, then dragging and dropping them. Well, > >it's easier at least. Otherwise, I can do everything faster in a command > >line. > > OK, let's race. I think it's easy to think of counter-examples, > even though I'm a fan of command-line power in the right situation. > > Given a folder full of 100 documents with long, human-friendly > filenames with no relevant pattern involving strings of characters > or dates, delete a given random set of 50 of those files. I'll use > any windowing system, you'll use 'del' or 'rm'. I think an extended > select (via CTRL) and a drag to the trash would win on either Mac or > Windows, don't you? Uh, yeah, John. Why don't you read my quote above again and make the call yourself? ;) BUT, consider that with a mouse, or even by using the arrow keys (wouldn't that be cheating though?) you still have to seek the filaname visually. With a properly powerful command line, you don't (see below). > While 'rm' might have an interactive "yes/no" option, which other > command-line tools have it? Sure, you can write anything in a > script... With automatic filename expansion with the TAB key like in the BASH shell in Linux, the process is much quicker. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed May 23 12:32:19 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: Tog and the interface (was: ID computer) In-Reply-To: <200105231706.NAA08388@conman.org> References: <4.3.2.7.0.20010523101022.01d66e50@pc> from "John Foust" at May 23, 2001 10:45:39 AM Message-ID: <3B0C1043.19882.1AB7A603@localhost> > It was thus said that the Great John Foust once stated: > > See his 1991 book "Tog on Interface", where he claims in the 80s > > Apple performed $50M in tests that showed that people consistently > > reported believing that keyboarding (using shortcuts, etc.) was faster > > than mousing, yet the stopwatch consistently showed that mousing was > > faster than keyboarding. > > His explanation for this is that deciding among abstract symbols is > > a high-level cognitive function, and that this decision is not only > > boring, but that the user experiences near-amnesia in the approximately > > two seconds needed to remember the chord keystroke. On the other hand, > > Tog also argues that two-handed chords (think the handy cut-and-paste > > CTRL/C /V) result in solid productivity gains. > > Around page 180, where in fact he discusses Raskin's Cat interface and > > the decision to use a single dedicated key for operations such as "Find", > > Tog admits was actually fifty times faster than the Mac's mouse-move. > Hold on a second ... according to Tog, which is faster? He seems to be > arguing out both sides of his mouth here. First he says the mouse is > faster, then the keyboard. It can't be both. And was Apple testing people > who *could* type, or *couldn't*? Well, you have to read carefuly, since the above description is shortened. The mouse is faster if you have _only_ shortcuts and a system of endless combination. Just think about all these shells for Emacs. On the other hand, if you only have a few functions, especialy when they offered to the usa via special keys (not keycombinations or spread out shortcuts) the keyboard interface is again faster. And you're unbeatable when you combine both. > And if this was in the 80s, then that was with Apple keyboards that didn't > have a numeric keypad/editing pad, or (on the later keyboards) the separate > editing keys *and* the numeric keypad. > -spc (But there's a reason why Raskin's ``Find'' function was 50 times > faster ... ) If you ever worked on a Xerox, where you had the copy/move/prop/... special keys on the left hand side of your keyboard you'd know how easy handling can be ... unlike todays interface, where you use the mouse for several thing, here the little critter was only a pointing device, while you selected most functions via keys (and your left hand). In fact, I still belive we schould go back there and add some keys - the old PC Keyboard could be used in a similar way, and one of my first tasks I did with GEM on the PC was a Desktop which used the function keys in a way similar to the Xerox system. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From foo at siconic.com Wed May 23 11:36:44 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: Listserver Auction, was Re: Canon Cat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 23 May 2001, R. D. Davis wrote: > On Wed, 23 May 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Personally, if I saw something in a Goodwill that I wasn't familiar with, > > and I posted about it to the list, and everyone responded with "GRAB IT! > > R@RE!!!", then I would probably go grab it so that I could give it to > > someone on the list. If there were multiple people interested in it and > > it mattered, I'd do some sort of lottery (pick a number from 0 to 65535) > > and then give it to whomever came closest (they pay shipping). I > > Whatever happened to the first person to respond to a posting of > something for sale or for free to be the one to get it? That's how it > used to be on Usenet for many years, and it always worked out quite > well; that seems to be the fairest way to sell or give away something. > ...of course, things have certainly changed since the masses invaded > the 'net. Understood. But I was responding to Marvin's comment about giving folks who don't have a permanent SMTP connection to their brain a chance to get in on the action. In general, I always go with the first respondent. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From mac at Wireless.Com Wed May 23 13:03:58 2001 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: ID computer In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010523104711.01d6a100@pc> Message-ID: The "classic" way to do this is emacs "dired". I'll beat your WIMP interface with my kbd every time. -Mike "Emacs isn't an editor; it's a religion." - rms at an SVLUG meeting, before rendering St. Ignucious (get it? I-GNU-cious...) with a 14" disk platter on his head for a "halo" effect. On Wed, 23 May 2001, John Foust wrote: > At 07:32 PM 5/22/01 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: > >Like selecting multiple items, then dragging and dropping them. Well, > >it's easier at least. Otherwise, I can do everything faster in a command > >line. > > OK, let's race. I think it's easy to think of counter-examples, > even though I'm a fan of command-line power in the right situation. > > Given a folder full of 100 documents with long, human-friendly > filenames with no relevant pattern involving strings of characters > or dates, delete a given random set of 50 of those files. I'll use > any windowing system, you'll use 'del' or 'rm'. I think an extended > select (via CTRL) and a drag to the trash would win on either Mac or > Windows, don't you? > > While 'rm' might have an interactive "yes/no" option, which > other command-line tools have it? Sure, you can write anything > in a script... > > - John From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 23 12:49:54 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: ID computer In-Reply-To: <200105231706.NAA08388@conman.org> References: <4.3.2.7.0.20010523101022.01d66e50@pc> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010523124734.01dac950@pc> At 01:06 PM 5/23/01 -0400, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > Hold on a second ... according to Tog, which is faster? He seems to be >arguing out both sides of his mouth here. First he says the mouse is >faster, then the keyboard. It can't be both. And was Apple testing people >who *could* type, or *couldn't*? Got me. As they say, read the book. Perhaps he's still trying to justify spending $50M on these tests. :-) At 07:32 PM 5/23/01 +0200, Hans Franke wrote: >If you ever worked on a Xerox, where you had the copy/move/prop/... special >keys on the left hand side of your keyboard you'd know how easy handling can >be ... Sometimes I still miss the old PC keyboards that had the function keys on the left. Along with my Brief bindings, text editing was a snap. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 23 12:46:18 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: ID computer In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.0.20010523104711.01d6a100@pc> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010523124415.01d31930@pc> At 12:55 PM 5/23/01 -0400, liste@artware.qc.ca wrote: >The longest step by far is the "vi something" to weed out the files you >want, which is pretty much the same as ctrl-clicking, and less error prone >(see below). So you switched from a command line to a text-based UI of sorts in 'vi'. >Only if you don't mess up and release the ctrl key at some inoportune >moment, there-by requiring you reselect everything. Also, average users >(as opposed to advanced) don't know that ctrl-click allows them to select >multiple items. So clicking the mouse at the right time is considered an expert skill in Windows, but using 'vi' and writing scripts is a novice skill in Unix. :-) - John From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 23 12:51:11 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: VAX Equipment In-Reply-To: <17cc01c0e3a8$586419e0$b423010a@dbnh> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010523123918.01d3e8b0@pc> At 12:49 PM 5/23/01 -0400, David Betz wrote: >I would like to find a good home for the following equipment. This is the author of the classic XLISP, I presume? Everybody buy the man his favorite drink and appetizer! - John From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 23 13:02:18 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: ID computer In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.0.20010523104711.01d6a100@pc> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010523130133.01ddeca0@pc> At 09:32 AM 5/23/01 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: >Uh, yeah, John. Why don't you read my quote above again and make the call >yourself? Sorry about that, I posted too quickly. - John From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed May 23 13:14:03 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: Kbd UIs (was Re: ID computer In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010523124415.01d31930@pc> References: <4.3.2.7.0.20010523104711.01d6a100@pc> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010523110612.025e37a0@208.226.86.10> An interesting thread, I particularly like the ctrl-click vs vi comparison, I have to go with John on that one, if you know enough about your computer to use vi a similar level of skill on a windoze computer would know about ctrl-click. This property makes an interesting point about the discussion: "Who is the user?" I've mentioned here and elsewhere that I 'think' in vi/make style but my college age friends who grew up with Visual BASIC or VC++ "think" in that style. They achieve similar efficiencies. Both Tog and Jef presume either "completely new user" or "one familiar with the machine" for all their tests I believe. (They both answer email so they would be the ultimate source of information ...) The second interesting point is a piece of Microsoft hardware that I think has to end up as Classic eventually is this thing under my left hand called a 'Strategic Commander.' M$ built it as a game controller for real time strategy games, but what they build was a chord keyboard with three an additional three analog inputs. It works by inject USB keystrokes into the 'path' as it were. This has the potential (its fully programmable) to fully implement Englebart's vision of a mouse/chord combo for maximum navigation speeds. --Chuck From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Wed May 23 13:08:13 2001 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: OT - Nigerian Pigeon Drop Scam Message-ID: <20010523.131126.-16555327.2.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Wed, 23 May 2001 07:45:00 -0700 (PDT) Sellam Ismail writes: > Nigeria is like the scam capital of the world. I have no idea why. > Lax laws? Government complicity? A weakened sense of morals? :) Try All of the Above. ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Wed May 23 13:07:09 2001 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: Listserver Auction, was Re: Canon Cat Message-ID: <20010523.131126.-16555327.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Wed, 23 May 2001 08:39:09 -0700 Marvin writes: > > >I, for one, think it is a great idea and have no problems at all > > >with it! Among other things, it does away with the luck of being > > >the first person to read a post and get the item. Also, it keeps > > >the item in this community which is most likely a good thing. > > > > I'm very annoyed indeed by spome idiot posting an ever-growing > > message consisting of one "Now it's up at a hundra bucks" line and 300 > > line sof quoted material (below the addition, mind you!). Several > > times a day. > > Instead of just complaining, offer a reasonable alternative!!!!! I > have no problems with it since it keeps everyone informed about > where the current bid is. That's fer sure! At least here, we're bidding amongst friends; auctions are kinda silly for (relatively) common or inexpensive items, but I think it's a good way for truly unique items to be sold: The seller gets a good price and because we as a community have a better feel for its true value (than your average weenie), the high bid *shouldn't* go out of sight. Besides, it's a *real* auction; not the sniper-ridden travesties that regularly occour on E-PAy. I'm still smarting from the first time I got sniped (and that was over two years ago). Just my $0.02 ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From jss at ou.edu Wed May 23 13:34:31 2001 From: jss at ou.edu (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: ID computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <990642871.3b0c02b70e7d0@email.ou.edu> On Wed, 23 May 2001, John Foust wrote: > OK, let's race. > > Given a folder full of 100 documents with long, human-friendly > filenames with no relevant pattern involving strings of characters > or dates, delete a given random set of 50 of those files. I'll use > any windowing system, you'll use 'del' or 'rm'. jeff@vulcan> exec bash jeff@vulcan$ echo Let's race, buddy! jeff@vulcan$ rm -f Pag[TAB] We[TAB] Entr[TAB] My\ In[TAB] ... -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@ou.edu From foo at siconic.com Wed May 23 12:37:22 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: Listserver Auction, was Re: Canon Cat In-Reply-To: <20010523.131126.-16555327.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 May 2001, Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > That's fer sure! At least here, we're bidding amongst friends; > auctions are kinda silly for (relatively) common or inexpensive items, > but I think it's a good way for truly unique items to be sold: The > seller gets a good price and because we as a community have a better > feel for its true value (than your average weenie), the high bid > *shouldn't* go out of sight. The seller is a Goodwill picker; a middle-man; at best an opportunist; at worst a scoundrel. He's selling direct from a Goodwill shelf in a store somewhere, to you. I think this aspect is important to consider in this case. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Wed May 23 13:49:08 2001 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: VAX Equipment References: <4.3.2.7.0.20010523123918.01d3e8b0@pc> Message-ID: <18fd01c0e3b9$0cc73290$b423010a@dbnh> Yes, I'm afraid I am guilty of subjecting the world to XLISP. In fact, it was originally developed on a DEC PDT-11 that I bought through the employee purchase program while I worked for DEC. The PDT-11 is a PDP-11 box with a couple of 8" floppies running RT-11. Unfortunately, I don't still have the machine I developed it on. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Foust" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 1:51 PM Subject: Re: VAX Equipment > At 12:49 PM 5/23/01 -0400, David Betz wrote: > >I would like to find a good home for the following equipment. > > This is the author of the classic XLISP, I presume? > > Everybody buy the man his favorite drink and appetizer! > > - John > > From ss at allegro.com Wed May 23 14:08:58 2001 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: Any interest in a HP 3000/960? Message-ID: <3B0BA85A.7344.3D30B89@localhost> Seen in comp.sys.hp.mpe: An HP 3000/960 is a *BIG* computer. probably 4' tall, 6' long and 3' deep (possibly larger) ... *not counting* the disk drives! Probably introduced around 1988 (roughly). It runs MPE/iX, and will not run any kind of Linux. (Nor is it worth trying to modify the Puffingroup PA-RISC version.) No...I don't know where it's located! ----------- forwarded message From: Robert.Schlosser@OCHSNER-HMO.COM Does anyone have any interest in a HP960 [HP 3000/960] and its disks? Some are HPIB and some are SCSI. It was taken out of service in September of 2000 and all was working. Will consider letting it go for the shipping. Please reply to me directly off the list. Thanks Bob Schlosser Ochsner Health Plan (504) 219-8134 ------- End of forwarded message ------- Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From halarewich at look.ca Wed May 23 14:26:21 2001 From: halarewich at look.ca (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: Canon Cat References: <3B0B127C.DCFFC11B@look.ca> <3B0B22FF.9369DAE1@look.ca> <3B0B5B43.7193F8A9@look.ca> Message-ID: <3B0C0EDD.AE4680F3@look.ca> hi the computer is in my posetion now so don't worry sellam :) thank you chris Chris Halarewich wrote: > Hello > Just to let everyone know I have the computer on hold at the store until > tomorrow(wed) and I WILL be picking it up tomorrow > thank you > Chris > > Chris Halarewich wrote: > > > up to $100 now > > chris > > Hi Chris, > > > > I'll bid $100+ shipping > > > > Curt > > > > Chris Halarewich wrote: > > > > > hi > > > I have a bid of $70 us + shipping any others I will keep the bidding open > > > until Sunday at 7pm pacific time > > > thanx > > > chris > > > keep the bids comming > > > Chris > > > > > > hi > > > If there is a enough interest in this Computer I will do a mini > > > auction on this list no ebay if you guys are interested it comes with the > > > compter/monitor the originalcannon printer and a video tape on how to run it > > > > > > and takers I live in Castlegar bc Canada all offers will be accepted in us > > > dollars+ shipping > > > Chris > > > > > > Chandra Bajpai wrote: > > > > > > > Sounds good...let me know. > > > > -Chandra > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Chris Halarewich [mailto:halarewich@look.ca] > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 8:58 PM > > > > To: Chandra Bajpai > > > > Subject: Re: Canon Cat > > > > > > > > As far as I know yes when I was at the salvation army all I could do was > > > > turn the main computer on type on the screen that still worked but the > > > > printer was becide it and not hooked up so that part I am not sure of > > > > chris > > > > > > > > Chandra Bajpai wrote: > > > > > > > > > Chris - I'll offer you $70...is it still working? > > > > > > > > > > -Chandra > > > > > > > > -- > > > > # Netscape POP3 State File > > > > # This is a generated file! Do not edit. > > > > > > -- > > > # Netscape POP3 State File > > > # This is a generated file! Do not edit. > > > > -- > > # Netscape POP3 State File > > # This is a generated file! Do not edit. > > -- > # Netscape POP3 State File > # This is a generated file! Do not edit. -- # Netscape POP3 State File # This is a generated file! Do not edit. From liste at artware.qc.ca Wed May 23 14:26:30 2001 From: liste at artware.qc.ca (liste@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: ID computer In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010523124415.01d31930@pc> Message-ID: On 23-May-2001 John Foust wrote: > At 12:55 PM 5/23/01 -0400, liste@artware.qc.ca wrote: >>The longest step by far is the "vi something" to weed out the files you >>want, which is pretty much the same as ctrl-clicking, and less error >>prone >>(see below). > > So you switched from a command line to a text-based UI of > sorts in 'vi'. Heh. Hadn't thought of this. >>Only if you don't mess up and release the ctrl key at some inoportune >>moment, there-by requiring you reselect everything. Also, average users >>(as opposed to advanced) don't know that ctrl-click allows them to >>select >>multiple items. > > So clicking the mouse at the right time is considered an > expert skill in Windows, but using 'vi' and writing scripts is > a novice skill in Unix. :-) Herm. That's not what I meant. Scripts and ctrl-click are mid-level skills, imho. Ctrl-click is easier to learn, but scripts are more powerful in the long run. Of course, scripts are programs, and J. Random User has trouble grasping the mindset need to write programs, so they require easier tools. Now say the challenge is selecting 100 files out 10000 that are in multiple sub-directories, with regular file names (ie, pattern matchable). This is when find + xargs will win over point and click. -Philip From jcook793 at yahoo.com Wed May 23 14:27:48 2001 From: jcook793 at yahoo.com (John Cook) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:42 2005 Subject: Any interest in a HP 3000/960? In-Reply-To: <3B0BA85A.7344.3D30B89@localhost> Message-ID: <20010523192748.39595.qmail@web12501.mail.yahoo.com> I looked up the 504 area code. Eastern Louisiana. -John --- Stan Sieler wrote: > Seen in comp.sys.hp.mpe: > > An HP 3000/960 is a *BIG* computer. probably 4' tall, 6' long > and 3' deep (possibly larger) ... *not counting* the disk drives! > Probably introduced around 1988 (roughly). > > It runs MPE/iX, and will not run any kind of Linux. > (Nor is it worth trying to modify the Puffingroup PA-RISC version.) > > No...I don't know where it's located! > > ----------- forwarded message > > From: Robert.Schlosser@OCHSNER-HMO.COM > > Does anyone have any interest in a HP960 [HP 3000/960] and its disks? > Some are HPIB and some are SCSI. It was taken out of service > in September of 2000 and all was working. > > Will consider letting it go for the shipping. > > Please reply to me directly off the list. > > Thanks > > Bob Schlosser > Ochsner Health Plan > (504) 219-8134 > > ------- End of forwarded message ------- > Stan Sieler > sieler@allegro.com > www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From dittman at dittman.net Wed May 23 14:34:20 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: Listserver Auction, was Re: Canon Cat In-Reply-To: <20010523.131126.-16555327.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> from "Jeffrey l Kaneko" at May 23, 2001 01:07:09 PM Message-ID: <200105231934.f4NJYKg03969@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Besides, it's a *real* auction; not the sniper-ridden travesties > that regularly occour on E-PAy. I'm still smarting from the first > time I got sniped (and that was over two years ago). I've been sniped a couple of times, but if the sniper doesn't put in their maximum bid I notice they usually run out of time to place a higher bid. If they want to snipe with a maximum bid that is higher than than my maximum bid, then I don't care, since I'm not going to pay more than what I placed anyway. I did play with a sniper once. This guy sniped me about three times before, so this time I didn't place my maximum bid. I instead placed a bid about $20 less than my maximum. Sure enough, the guy tried to snipe me. He failed this time as I had a window opened with a new bid of my maximum. I had one window that I refreshed, waiting until the five second mark. At that time I switched to the other window and confirmed my maximum bid. This left the sniper with no time to snipe again. So two lessons on eBay: 1) Bid your maximum, and don't worry if you get sniped by someone willing to pay more. You weren't going to pay more if you weren't sniped, so why pay more anyway? If you are just feeling the waters, bid less until the last day, then bid your maximum. 2) If you don't want to bid your maximum, but want to protect yourself from snipers, snipe the sniper. You're not a sniper since you've been bidding on the auction the whole time. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From halarewich at look.ca Wed May 23 14:35:36 2001 From: halarewich at look.ca (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: Cat auction Message-ID: <3B0C1108.E5C11DD4@look.ca> Hi Sorry about this I will take it of of the classic list right now and onl email who is interested in it Chris -- # Netscape POP3 State File # This is a generated file! Do not edit. From marvin at rain.org Wed May 23 14:37:38 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: Listserver Auction, was Re: Canon Cat References: Message-ID: <3B0C1182.1BB522E3@rain.org> Sellam Ismail wrote: > > On Wed, 23 May 2001, Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > > > That's fer sure! At least here, we're bidding amongst friends; > > auctions are kinda silly for (relatively) common or inexpensive items, > > The seller is a Goodwill picker; a middle-man; at best an opportunist; at > worst a scoundrel. He's selling direct from a Goodwill shelf in a store > somewhere, to you. > > I think this aspect is important to consider in this case. Why? I always thought that saving the equipment was the important thing, and where it came from is irrelevant. Who loses if it hadn't been brought to the attention of the list? FWIW, I don't know how many people here browse Ebay and other sites regularly, and putting up for auction here sounds like a really good idea!!! Credit should be given instead of criticism!!!!!!! From optimus at canit.se Wed May 23 15:05:48 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: Listserver Auction, was Re: Canon Cat In-Reply-To: <3B0BD99D.BA7F083A@rain.org> Message-ID: <983.543T2400T12656389optimus@canit.se> Marvin skrev: >Iggy Drougge wrote: >> >> Marvin skrev: >> >> >I, for one, think it is a great idea and have no problems at all with it! >> >Among other things, it does away with the luck of being the first person >> >to read a post and get the item. Also, it keeps the item in this community >> >which is most likely a good thing. >> >> I'm very annoyed indeed by spome idiot posting an ever-growing message >> consisting of one "Now it's up at a hundra bucks" line and 300 line sof >> quoted material (below the addition, mind you!). Several times a day. >Instead of just complaining, offer a reasonable alternative!!!!! I have no >problems with it since it keeps everyone informed about where the current >bid is. It's called extensive snipping. Either that, or eBay, or Yahoo auctions, or just mail the interested parties. Just not me, and just not ill-formatted messages. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. The most useful program will be continually improved until it is useless. From ip500 at home.com Wed May 23 14:50:02 2001 From: ip500 at home.com (ip500) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: Listserver Auction, was Re: Canon Cat References: <20010523.131126.-16555327.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <3B0C146A.50E8F75F@home.com> At the risk of being tedious: You didn't get "sniped" ... someone just bid more than you thought it was worth! With the proxy bid system.. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to get sniped unless they will pay more than your MAXIMUM allowable bid price .. ie: They just wanted it more than you did. > > > > > > I'm very annoyed indeed by spome idiot posting an ever-growing > > > message consisting of one "Now it's up at a hundra bucks" line and > 300 > > > line sof quoted material (below the addition, mind you!). Several > > > times a day. > > > > Instead of just complaining, offer a reasonable alternative!!!!! I > > have no problems with it since it keeps everyone informed about > > where the current bid is. > > That's fer sure! At least here, we're bidding amongst friends; > auctions are kinda silly for (relatively) common or inexpensive > items, but I think it's a good way for truly unique items to be > sold: The seller gets a good price and because we as a community > have a better feel for its true value (than your average weenie), > the high bid *shouldn't* go out of sight. > > Besides, it's a *real* auction; not the sniper-ridden travesties > that regularly occour on E-PAy. I'm still smarting from the first > time I got sniped (and that was over two years ago). > > Just my $0.02 > > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 23 14:12:08 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: <3125.543T2300T1615641optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at May 23, 1 02:41:46 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4564 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010523/4b685694/attachment.ksh From allain at panix.com Wed May 23 13:46:53 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: Kbd UIs (was Re: ID computer References: <200105230310.XAA07715@conman.org> <4.3.2.7.0.20010523104711.01d6a100@pc> Message-ID: <008201c0e3b8$e0bc5360$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> I am all for genius first, an indescribable quality where simplicity allows for all the functionality that came before it with none of the confusion. Since genius insight can't be scheduled for (EG 'in 2003 we will have voice interfacing finally productized') and is currently thwarted by the MS monopoly, here's my take on a few other things. Mouse: shouldn't be necessary, except for draw programs. My walk around computer is an old laptop running w3.11 with the mouse detached. Can do everything I want with it using tab sequences. w95+ disallows lots of this simplicity by moving some commands from menus to toolbars, Yuk. Using a mouse while word processing will make more sense when I grow a third hand. Right now its Lift over, lift back, etc. Unix: the power of the commandline and sumpeme interoperability. Could someone show me how to automate Excel and Word together in one bat file? Oh that's right, I have to buy VB. And keep upgrading it. I should add a paragraph here about all the good Unix experiences. Robustness: How many situations in w95 where ape doesn't. How many times is it Close versus Quit? Where and accelerators are forgotten? Where is that 'Word' subcommand anyway, was it organized by committee? (Never mind all the hangs). John A. From steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com Wed May 23 16:03:23 2001 From: steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: Any interest in a HP 3000/960? Message-ID: >An HP 3000/960 is a *BIG* computer. probably 4' tall, 6' long >and 3' deep (possibly larger) ... *not counting* the disk drives! >Probably introduced around 1988 (roughly). Maybe, I'll get it. It'll make a fine wet bar! Just kidding. I wouldn't mind having it but, Louisania is too far. Steve _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 23 16:14:35 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: Wanted: iAPX-432 In-Reply-To: Re: Wanted: iAPX-432 (Eric Dittman) References: <3B0BD683.EAA00AD2@ecubics.com> <200105231553.f4NFrwW03122@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <15116.10299.834599.609405@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 23, Eric Dittman wrote: > > > all the delays. I could be completely off, but didn't some > > > of the processor features get implemented in the i860? > > > > Yes. Was slow too ;-) > > The i860 did find success as an embedded controller, though. Still does, too. > I never did look at the i960 features; was it an improved > i860 or was it a completely new processor? Completely new processor.. -Dave McGuire From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 23 15:28:25 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: Listserver Auction, was Re: Canon Cat In-Reply-To: <3B0BD99D.BA7F083A@rain.org> References: <856.543T1200T9264681optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: >Instead of just complaining, offer a reasonable alternative!!!!! I have no >problems with it since it keeps everyone informed about where the current >bid is. This is a one of a kind item, make your bid and live with it. I see no need for a play by play update on the bidding. From pcw at mesanet.com Wed May 23 16:25:29 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: Xerox daybreak disk formatting question -- looong shot Message-ID: I have a couple of daybreak machines with failing hard drives. I have the 6085 offline diagnostic disk (2.0) which will format drives, but to do formatting you need the system admin or tech support password. Does anyone here happen to know one of these passwords? help! Thanks! Peter Wallace From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Wed May 23 17:24:12 2001 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: Listserver Auction, was Re: Canon Cat Message-ID: <20010523.172412.-16634527.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Wed, 23 May 2001 15:50:02 -0400 ip500 writes: > At the risk of being tedious: You didn't get "sniped" ... > someone just bid more than you thought it was worth! With the > proxy bid system.. > IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to get sniped unless they will pay more than > your MAXIMUM allowable bid price .. ie: They just wanted it > more than you did. Hah, what a bunch of bologna. At the time, I'd a bid more; this particular asswipe waited until the final 10 seconds to place his first (and only) bid-- leaving me with no time to post another bid. Had I know he was out there, I'd a done things a little differently. SInce then, I've learned to be an asswipe on e-bay. It's only way you're going to get anything there. I don't post *any* bids until the last 5 seconds or so. There is no such thing as civility or fair play there-- Only winners and losers: You have to be an asswipe if you wanna win. An auction conducted on this list (or at least started here) would be more in keeping with the ideas of civility *and* fair play. More than $0.02 but what the heck . . . ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From jss at ou.edu Wed May 23 17:25:53 2001 From: jss at ou.edu (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: Austin Texas UT Auction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <990656753.3b0c38f180fc3@email.ou.edu> Quoting Reuben Reyes : > University of Texas at Austin will have an auction > ... May 23, 2001 > > Vax 8600 ( vax bar? ) I have *WON* the VAX lot! I'll be taking a Ryder to Austin ASAP to load it all up. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@ou.edu From zmerch at 30below.com Wed May 23 17:34:11 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: Osborne Executive Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20010523183411.0158a4d0@mail.30below.com> This is forwarded (by request) from my Tandy Model 100 mailing list [m100@list.30below.com]. Please respond to the original poster, not me [he's not yet a member of this list]... Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger >I just bought an Osborne Executive in great shape. I always wanted one! It >came with these manuals: > >- Volume 0 - Beginners Guide >- Volume 1 - Mastering the Osborne Executive >- Volume 2 - Working with text and Spreadsheets >- Volume 3 - Managing information with Personal Pearl >- Volume 4 - Operating System >- Reference Guide Binder with tabs for WordStar, SuperCalc, CP/M Plus, CBASIC >and MS BASIC. > >Does anyone here on the Model 100 listserv know if these ALL the manuals that >came with a new Osborne Executive? > >Also, unfortunately, it came with 4 non-original, non-labeled disks. It is not >clear to me what is on the 4 disks or the logic of them since I'm new to CP/M. >I know that WordStar and some CP/M Plus are on those disks. But I don't believe >I have SuperCalc, CBASIC, MS BASIC or Personal Pearl. I'm not even sure I have >the full WordStar and CP/M Plus. > >So I'm looking to get an exact copy of the original disk set that came with the >Osborne Executive. Also, I though it would be cool to get a picture of the >disks' labels so I can re-create them. > >Can you help? Is there a file list by disk somewhere? > >I'm assuming the bundled software included: > >- CP/M Plus >- WordStar >- SuperCalc >- Personal Pearl >- CBASIC >- MS BASIC > >Thanks a bunch. > >Chris >Chris_Feeney@hillenbrand.com -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Wed May 23 17:41:49 2001 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: Listserver Auction, was Re: Canon Cat Message-ID: <20010523.174419.-16634527.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Wed, 23 May 2001 10:37:22 -0700 (PDT) Sellam Ismail writes: > The seller is a Goodwill picker; a middle-man; at best an > opportunist; at worst a scoundrel. He's selling direct from a > Goodwill shelf in a store somewhere, to you. > > I think this aspect is important to consider in this case. You're looking at the glass as half empty. There are at least three major aspects which you have *not* considered: 1. He came to us, first. 2. Once he found out it was valuable, he didn't take it to E-Bay. 3. Everyone on this list had a fair shot at it. Opportunist? Maybe-- he got lucky and wanted to ca$h in. Good for him. Is that such a crime? If you had a way to sell 'lucky breaks', you'd have folks beating a path to your door. Scoundrel? Only if he misrepresents himself or the merchandise; on this forum, it is best to give him the benefit of the doubt. Alot more than $0.02 but I think it needed saying . . . ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Wed May 23 17:47:22 2001 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: Austin Texas UT Auction Message-ID: <20010523.174722.-16634527.2.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Whoa! Dude! Now all you need is a 440v 3-phase power and you'll be all set to go! Holy mackerel. . . . On Wed, 23 May 2001 17:25:53 -0500 (CDT) "Jeffrey S. Sharp" writes: > Quoting Reuben Reyes : > > University of Texas at Austin will have an auction > > ... May 23, 2001 > > > > Vax 8600 ( vax bar? ) > > I have *WON* the VAX lot! I'll be taking a Ryder to Austin ASAP to > load it all up. > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@ou.edu ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From liste at artware.qc.ca Wed May 23 18:16:27 2001 From: liste at artware.qc.ca (liste@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: Kbd UIs (was Re: ID computer In-Reply-To: <008201c0e3b8$e0bc5360$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On 23-May-2001 John Allain wrote: > Unix: the power of the commandline and sumpeme interoperability. > Could someone show me how to automate Excel and Word together > in one bat file? Oh that's right, I have to buy VB. And keep > upgrading it. Perl + Win32::OLE http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Downloads/ActivePerl/ or just plain VBA (which comes with Word or Excel, I belive) Batch files were barely able to do complex tasks in DOS, so forget about Windows. -Philip From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed May 23 18:36:51 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: Kbd UIs (was Re: ID computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Batch files were barely able to do complex tasks in DOS, so forget about >Windows. They were actually pretty capable though if you really got to know how to pass variables between the batch file and programs you were calling. I seem to recall there being quite a few classes on batch file programming, as well as numerous books. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 23 18:46:19 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: Listserver Auction, was Re: Canon Cat In-Reply-To: <3B0C146A.50E8F75F@home.com> References: <20010523.131126.-16555327.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: > At the risk of being tedious: You didn't get "sniped" ... someone >just bid more than you thought it was worth! With the proxy bid system.. >IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to get sniped unless they will pay more than your >MAXIMUM >allowable bid price .. ie: They just wanted it more than you did. Yes of course, but frequently I find I want something more than I thought I did after somebody else starts wanting it. The pain of the snipe isn't from being "cheated" its from being stupid and not bidding the full amount you are willing to pay. From THETechnoid at home.com Wed May 23 18:44:51 2001 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: Memorex/Telex terminals desperately needed for $$CASH$$ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010523234905.PVLO20675.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@Benchbox> Desperately needed: Memorex/Telex terminals Specifically and only models: R4078 (900607) and 080A These are used by some of our major Airline customers and Decision One (Thier and my contractor) wants to buy a few for stock. They can sell for between one and three hundred dollars US. The latter sells for no more than $150.00US. The machines need to be in working order and in reasonably decent cosmetic condition. Please contact me at the addresses/numbers below or by cell phone at 828-280-7775. Your help is greatly appreciated. Regards and thanks again, Jeff -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From liste at artware.qc.ca Wed May 23 18:54:15 2001 From: liste at artware.qc.ca (liste@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: Kbd UIs (was Re: ID computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 23-May-2001 Jeff Hellige wrote: >>Batch files were barely able to do complex tasks in DOS, so forget about >>Windows. > > They were actually pretty capable though if you really got to > know how to pass variables between the batch file and programs you > were calling. I seem to recall there being quite a few classes on > batch file programming, as well as numerous books. Oh yeah, you could get batch files to jump through amazing hoops and do really funky tricks but it wasn't much fun, however. Witness how everybody and their brother created batch file extensions (PC-Mag's string.com, 4dos with .btm and so on) -Philip From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed May 23 21:00:53 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: Fw: Listserver Auction, was Re: Canon Cat Message-ID: <013601c0e3f6$0f30a4c0$9a789a8d@ajp166> Hey!!! Cut the damm RTF formatting, I'm tiring of OE jumpin to the stinking 16pt font. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Marvin .org> Date: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 2:09 AM Subject: Listserver Auction, was Re: Canon Cat > > >Sellam Ismail wrote: >> >> On Tue, 22 May 2001, ip500 wrote: >> >> > And this is BETTER than eBay ??? How is it that this just sort >> > of slides by and yet if you DARE to stick an eBay pointer up you get >> >> If you didn't catch the irony of my message, I find this "auction" to be >> so absurd that I am just laughing at it. > >I, for one, think it is a great idea and have no problems at all with it! >Among other things, it does away with the luck of being the first person to >read a post and get the item. Also, it keeps the item in this community >which is most likely a good thing. > >Another approach is to use the pre-approved bidder list on Ebay, and only >approve people on this list to bid. From my standpoint, that might penalize >the lurkers since *I* would only recognize the people that have posted in >the past. OTOH, it might encourage people to post once in a while :). From chomko at greenbelt.com Wed May 23 21:27:09 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: OT - Nigerian Pigeon Drop Scam References: Message-ID: <3B0C717D.AD3ADF11@greenbelt.com> Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 23 May 2001, William Staniewicz wrote: > > > Another variation on this: > > > > Maybe 5 years ago I got a letter in the mail proposing > > the same thing. Out of curiosity, I sent a reply > > to them via fax. There were a few fax exchanges > > that followed the scenerio as mentioned below. > > I did not get involved any further. > > > > On a sadder note, some people I heard got pulled into the scam > > to the point where they went to Nigeria in person. I understand > > from newspaper reports they were held hostage and a ransom > > was demanded. In these cases the hostages were killed > > even after payment was made. > > > > Beware... > > Beware? > > Excuse me for being so callously blunt but anyone falling for this and > then getting killed as a result should be a candidate for the Darwin > Awards. > Couldn't agree more! Caveat Emptor with life! Eric > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From mbbrutman at bresnanlink.net Wed May 23 21:30:00 2001 From: mbbrutman at bresnanlink.net (Michael Brutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: Goodwill, Auctions via Listserv, etc... References: <200105232318.SAA49509@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3B0C7228.49646BBF@bresnanlink.net> I've been lurking, but I pipe up once in a while about the smaller iron (like PCjrs). I generally withhold my opinion to avoid wasting bandwidth, but I feel strongly enough about this to want to say something. Spotting something in a secondhand store, asking for help here because you don't know if it is a toaster or a computer, and then using a this listserv to auction it off is in poor taste. This wasn't a "Hey, I found a PCjr to PC keyboard adapter, does anybody need one" kind of question. Somebody made the argument that given the rarity of the item, it is appropriate to auction it. Fine. Auction it on E-Pay, and use their bandwidth and resources. Oh, by the way, it's usually good form to OWN the item you are auctioning. Post a notice here that the item is going up on Ebay if it truly is that interesting. This isn't a "keep it in the family/community" deal, it was more along the lines of "Can I make a buck, and how hard can I squeeze?" My vote for the person who should own it is Louis - he was passionate about it. That's a sign of a good home. ;-) To those of you who entered the bidding; I hope the seller's ethics raised some flags in your heads before you made your bids. I would not buy under these circumstances. Mike From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Wed May 23 20:45:43 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: ID computer In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010523124415.01d31930@pc> References: <4.3.2.7.0.20010523104711.01d6a100@pc> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010523214543.01079bc4@obregon.multi.net.co> At 12:46 PM 5/23/01 -0500, you wrote: >>Only if you don't mess up and release the ctrl key at some inoportune >>moment, there-by requiring you reselect everything. Also, average users >>(as opposed to advanced) don't know that ctrl-click allows them to select >>multiple items. > >So clicking the mouse at the right time is considered an >expert skill in Windows, but using 'vi' and writing scripts is >a novice skill in Unix. :-) > >- John Yes! That's how different Windows and Unix users are :-) . carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Wed May 23 20:48:27 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: OT - Nigerian Pigeon Drop Scam In-Reply-To: <20010523.131126.-16555327.2.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010523214827.01079ad0@obregon.multi.net.co> At 01:08 PM 5/23/01 -0500, you wrote: >On Wed, 23 May 2001 07:45:00 -0700 (PDT) Sellam Ismail >writes: >> Nigeria is like the scam capital of the world. I have no idea why. >> Lax laws? Government complicity? A weakened sense of morals? :) > >Try All of the Above. Better be careful. Scamming is actually pretty common in the US. It is mostly the elderly that are preyed upon. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From hahaha at sexyfun.net Wed May 23 21:56:22 2001 From: hahaha at sexyfun.net (Hahaha) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story! Message-ID: <200105240256.WAA18096@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Today, Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a *huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the Seven Dwarfs enter... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: dwarf4you.exe Type: application/octet-stream Size: 23040 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010523/54c1b7e4/dwarf4you.exe From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed May 23 22:06:54 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: Need help Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010523200217.03126be0@208.226.86.10> Deer Sir; I have just been given three ENIAC machines to display in a museum but they are currently in Nigeria where they were used for nuclear weapons testing. I can get them and preserve them for the National Museum of Science but I need your help. They won't believe I am a serious collector unless I can show them that I own a working PDP-1. I need you to box up and ship me a working PDP-1 so that I can set it up and show it to them. Then they will send me the three ENIACs by first class air mail. I will keep one, send one to the museum and you can keep one. You will agree that an ENIAC, the first digital computer, is much more valuable than a PDP-1 so you will understand that I must keep the PDP-1 just in case they do a "surprise" inspection. Thank you for your help, it is a good cause. Sincerely, Prof. Peabody. ----------------------------------------------------------- :-) From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Wed May 23 21:00:36 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: Wanted: iAPX-432 In-Reply-To: <15116.10299.834599.609405@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <3B0BD683.EAA00AD2@ecubics.com> <200105231553.f4NFrwW03122@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010523220036.010954d8@obregon.multi.net.co> At 05:14 PM 5/23/01 -0400, you wrote: >On May 23, Eric Dittman wrote: >> > > all the delays. I could be completely off, but didn't some >> > > of the processor features get implemented in the i860? >> > Yes. Was slow too ;-) >> The i860 did find success as an embedded controller, though. > Still does, too. >> I never did look at the i960 features; was it an improved >> i860 or was it a completely new processor? > > Completely new processor.. > -Dave McGuire I remember that there were ISA boards with multiple i860's offered back then; the idea was to have lots of number-crunching power in a PC back then. However, I never saw similar products based on i960. I believe that the i860 was geared more towards float processing/embedded control/multi user OS/ parallel processing architectures and the i960 was strictly for embedded control, with emphasis on integer performance. You'll find i960's in many HP laser printers. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From jpero at sympatico.ca Wed May 23 18:08:13 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: Warning!!! DON"T OPEN THAT!! Re: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs In-Reply-To: <200105240256.WAA18096@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <20010524030628.KBJE28559.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> That has a worm or vinus in it. delete it on sight don't open it. Cheers, Wizard: prior knowledge and my pegasus exposed it. From chomko at greenbelt.com Wed May 23 22:10:13 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: Goodwill, Auctions via Listserv, etc... References: <200105232318.SAA49509@opal.tseinc.com> <3B0C7228.49646BBF@bresnanlink.net> Message-ID: <3B0C7B95.6862D5CF@greenbelt.com> Michael Brutman wrote: > I've been lurking, but I pipe up once in a while about the smaller > iron (like PCjrs). I generally withhold my opinion to avoid wasting > bandwidth, but I feel strongly enough about this to want to say > something. > > Spotting something in a secondhand store, asking for help here > because you don't know if it is a toaster or a computer, and then > using a this listserv to auction it off is in poor taste. > > This wasn't a "Hey, I found a PCjr to PC keyboard adapter, does > anybody need one" kind of question. Somebody made the argument > that given the rarity of the item, it is appropriate to auction > it. Fine. Auction it on E-Pay, and use their bandwidth and > resources. Oh, by the way, it's usually good form to OWN the > item you are auctioning. Post a notice here that the item is > going up on Ebay if it truly is that interesting. This isn't > a "keep it in the family/community" deal, it was more along the > lines of "Can I make a buck, and how hard can I squeeze?" > > My vote for the person who should own it is Louis - he was > passionate about it. That's a sign of a good home. ;-) > > To those of you who entered the bidding; I hope the seller's > ethics raised some flags in your heads before you made your bids. > I would not buy under these circumstances. > Powerful words! If you want to auction then take it to Ebay. This list is NOT for auctions per se. On the same token mention of listings is not prohibited nor are they discouraged. On that note, I do have a IBM 3720 AT keyboard listed on eBay at the moment. Vintage hardware. Eric > > Mike From support at star.co.uk Wed May 23 22:07:57 2001 From: support at star.co.uk (support@star.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: WARNING. You sent a potential virus or unauthorised code Message-ID: <20010524030757.4552.qmail@server-4.tower-17.messagelabs.com> The MessageLabs Virus Control Centre discovered a possible virus or unauthorised code (such as a joke program or trojan) in an email sent by you. Please read this whole email carefully. It explains what has happened to your email, which suspected virus has been caught, and what to do if you need help. ------------------------------------------------------------ Some details about the infected message ------------------------------------------------------------ To help identify the email: The message sender was owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org hahaha@sexyfun.net classiccmp@classiccmp.org (if this is not your email address, the message sender possibly belongs to a mailing list to which you both subscribe.) The message was titled 'Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!' The message date was Wed, 23 May 2001 22:56:22 -0400 (EDT) The message identifier was <200105240256.WAA18096@granger.mail.mindspring.net> The message recipients were Lee.Davison@merlincommunications.com To help identify the virus: Scanner 1 (NAI Virus Scan) reported the following: /var/qmail/queue/split/0/669143_2MA-OCTET-STREAM_dwarf4you.exe Found the W32/Hybris.gen@MM virus !!! The message was diverted into the virus holding pen on mail server server-4.tower-17.messagelabs.com (id 669143_990673677) and will be held for 30 days before being destroyed. ------------------------------------------------------------ What should you do now? ------------------------------------------------------------ If you sent the email from a corporate network, you should first contact your local Helpdesk or System Administrator for advice. They will be able to help you disinfect your workstation. If you sent the email from a personal or home account, you will need to disinfect your computer yourself. To do this you will need an anti-virus program. We suggest using one of the leading industry anti-virus packages such as McAfee, F-Secure or Cybersoft, which cost £15-£30 per copy. ------------------------------------------------------------ Getting more help ------------------------------------------------------------ If you believe this message to be a false alarm or you require further assistance, you can email Star Internet Support at:- support@star.net.uk or contact Star Helpdesk by telephone on:- +44 (0) 1285 884433 Please quote the following Virus Pen ID when contacting Support. <<< mail server server-4.tower-17.messagelabs.com (id 669143_990673677) >>> If replying by email, please forward this entire email. _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp From foo at siconic.com Wed May 23 21:17:43 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: Listserver Auction, was Re: Canon Cat In-Reply-To: <3B0C1182.1BB522E3@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 May 2001, Marvin wrote: > Why? I always thought that saving the equipment was the important > thing, and where it came from is irrelevant. Who loses if it hadn't > been brought to the attention of the list? FWIW, I don't know how many > people here browse Ebay and other sites regularly, and putting up for > auction here sounds like a really good idea!!! Credit should be given > instead of criticism!!!!!!! I was going to try to let this die but... :) I have no problem with having an auction here instead of on eBay, with some exceptions. First of all, it seems to me Chris has not real interest in preserving a computer. His only interest seems to be how much money he could make off of a computer that a bunch of people told him that, in their opinion, it was rare. Then, he starts an "auction" without even having said machine in his own possession. That's nigh akin to fraud. Personally, I'd prefer to keep this list free of people who only have an economic interest in this here hobby. I don't appreciate spending my time dispensing knowledge or what not so that others can shamelessly make a dime on it. If they do it in some other forum at least, then I won't have to see it and won't care. But to be as obnoxious as Chris was is just not cool. Second, if there is to be an auction for CC list folks only, it shouldn't actually take place on the list. It's just noise and an annoyance to those who don't care about it. Chris proceeded to litter the list with updates that included every previous posting of that particular thread...a waste of time & money to those who pay bu the minute (I'm on a cable modem with a flat fee per month, so I don't care, but I do have consideration for those that don't have this luxury, like the poor sods in Europe ;) Auctions run on the list in the past have been less intrusive. Someone posts a message indicating he or she is auctioning off Item, and bids will be taken until Date, at which point the high bidder will be announced. Then you didn't hear about it anymore...only those involved in the auction got notification. If Chris had been sensible and done this from the get go, it would've been tolerable (save for the other aspects of this auction that I object to). I sense Chris is just some newbie. A rude newbie. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed May 23 22:20:40 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: Dead GRiD 1109 clam shell available In-Reply-To: <3B0C7B95.6862D5CF@greenbelt.com> References: <200105232318.SAA49509@opal.tseinc.com> <3B0C7228.49646BBF@bresnanlink.net> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010523201707.030d7da0@208.226.86.10> I've got a GRiD 1109 portable (first GRiD laptop) that doesn't work (not sure why it doesn't power up) but it is in good cosmetic condition. If you need a chunk of magnesium this is a good deal. Best offer by 7PM PDT Monday 5/28 (that's arrival time in my mail box, no screwing around with email headers :-) gets it. Minimum offer is "postage costs." If I don't get any offers it goes up on E-pay Tuesday. --Chuck From foo at siconic.com Wed May 23 21:19:42 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: Austin Texas UT Auction In-Reply-To: <990656753.3b0c38f180fc3@email.ou.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 May 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > Quoting Reuben Reyes : > > University of Texas at Austin will have an auction > > ... May 23, 2001 > > > > Vax 8600 ( vax bar? ) > > I have *WON* the VAX lot! I'll be taking a Ryder to Austin ASAP to > load it all up. Good lord and good luck. I just spent a day moving, among other things, a VAX 8600. It's not fun, but it sure does look cool :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From Glenatacme at aol.com Wed May 23 22:21:42 2001 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: IBM 5161 Message-ID: One of these was in the middle of a big bunch of junk at the shop. Looks like it's got two 5 MB hard drives inside. A large-diameter cable is attached; evidently this connects to the "receiver" card in a PC. This may be distasteful, but I'm thinking of putting it on Ebay. Has anyone ever seen one of these sell before? If so, for how much??? Thanks. Glen 0/0 From foo at siconic.com Wed May 23 21:23:10 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: Listserver Auction, was Re: Canon Cat In-Reply-To: <20010523.174419.-16634527.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 May 2001, Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > You're looking at the glass as half empty. There are at least three > major aspects which you have *not* considered: > > 1. He came to us, first. Only to see how much it was worth. > 2. Once he found out it was valuable, he didn't take it to E-Bay. It doesn't cost anything to sell it on CC. > 3. Everyone on this list had a fair shot at it. Only Chris knows where the Goodwill is that houses this machine. Yes, the glass is half empty, but someone drank the other half. I'm a pessimistic optimist anyway. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From elecdata at kcinter.net Thu May 24 00:24:33 2001 From: elecdata at kcinter.net (bill claussen) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: Ha Ha Virus is back Message-ID: <3B0C9B11.1F2968DE@kcinter.net> Evening folks, I just received this evening and it was sent at 7:56pm the Ha Ha Virus is back! I received it from the list this is the heading: Subject: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story! Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 22:56:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Hahaha Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org To: undisclosed-recipients: Bill Claussen elecdata1 From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed May 23 22:33:52 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: IBM 5161 Message-ID: <4a.164598cb.283ddb20@aol.com> In a message dated 5/23/01 11:26:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Glenatacme@aol.com writes: << One of these was in the middle of a big bunch of junk at the shop. Looks like it's got two 5 MB hard drives inside. A large-diameter cable is attached; evidently this connects to the "receiver" card in a PC. This may be distasteful, but I'm thinking of putting it on Ebay. Has anyone ever seen one of these sell before? If so, for how much??? >> that must be one of those famous expansion cabinets. Ive been looking for one myself; I have some parts and cable, but do not have the entire thing. -- DB Young Team OS/2 old computers, hot rod pinto and more at: www.nothingtodo.org From donm at cts.com Wed May 23 22:43:12 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: OT - Nigerian Pigeon Drop Scam In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20010523214827.01079ad0@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 May 2001, Carlos Murillo wrote: > At 01:08 PM 5/23/01 -0500, you wrote: > >On Wed, 23 May 2001 07:45:00 -0700 (PDT) Sellam Ismail > >writes: > >> Nigeria is like the scam capital of the world. I have no idea why. > >> Lax laws? Government complicity? A weakened sense of morals? :) > > > >Try All of the Above. > > Better be careful. Scamming is actually pretty common in the US. > It is mostly the elderly that are preyed upon. > ^^^^^^^ > carlos. > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org > No, it is the most greedy! Those who think they can get something for nothing. - don From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 23 22:43:02 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: Wanted: iAPX-432 In-Reply-To: Re: Wanted: iAPX-432 (Carlos Murillo) References: <3B0BD683.EAA00AD2@ecubics.com> <200105231553.f4NFrwW03122@narnia.int.dittman.net> <3.0.2.32.20010523220036.010954d8@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <15116.33606.234651.544617@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 23, Carlos Murillo wrote: > I remember that there were ISA boards with multiple i860's > offered back then; the idea was to have lots of number-crunching > power in a PC back then. However, I never saw similar The MicroWay NumberSmasher/860 comes to mind. Impressive specs, even by today's standards. I'd love to get my paws on one or more of those. > products based on i960. I believe that the i860 was geared > more towards float processing/embedded control/multi user OS/ > parallel processing architectures and the i960 was strictly for > embedded control, with emphasis on integer performance. > You'll find i960's in many HP laser printers. And many non-HP printers as well. The '960 is also well-suited for non-embedded applications. -Dave McGuire From frustum at pacbell.net Wed May 23 23:00:32 2001 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: Wanted: iAPX-432 In-Reply-To: <3B0BD683.EAA00AD2@ecubics.com> References: <200105231513.f4NFDTo02968@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010523203843.00bf9650@postoffice.pacbell.net> At 09:25 AM 5/23/01 -0600, emanuel stiebler wrote: >Eric Dittman wrote: > > > all the delays. I could be completely off, but didn't some > > of the processor features get implemented in the i860? No. Maybe you are thinking about the i960? I dunno about that one, but it was a lot more CISC than the i860. BTW, intel is coming out with a net chipset that is called 860, but it is completely unrelated to the i860 processor. >Yes. Was slow too ;-) Hey, now. I've actually used an i860. A 3D graphics terminal I worked on in 91-93 used two: one for the control processor, one for the geometry unit (actually, we had the option of using two for the geometry unit, for a total of 3). For its time, it was the best deal around for doing floating point. Getting the maximum rated performance out of it required a lot of very careful hand scheduling of instructions, but that's true of most processors. I also believe it was the first microprocessor that had more than 1M transistors, though a lot of that was contained in the two caches. It could dispatch two floating point ops per cycle, and that was back in 1991. The 860 had a few problems. The big one was that intel didn't know how to position it. The second problem, which was slightly improved in a second version of the chip (that ran at 50 MHz), was that recovering from exceptions could be a bear. This hadn't really been thought through. I didn't work on it, but I recall hearing that the reference routine provided by intel ran a number of pages, and had to do things like check to see what the next instruction was and recover differently depending on what it was about to step into. In the worst case, it could take thousands of cycles to get back to a running state. I agree, intel has one butt-ugly architecture with the x86, but nobody in their right minds can fault them for succeeding despite that. Given the fact that they must live with the ugliness, their implementations are first rate. ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 23 23:11:09 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: Wanted: iAPX-432 In-Reply-To: Re: Wanted: iAPX-432 (Jim Battle) References: <200105231513.f4NFDTo02968@narnia.int.dittman.net> <4.3.2.7.0.20010523203843.00bf9650@postoffice.pacbell.net> Message-ID: <15116.35293.964658.805289@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 23, Jim Battle wrote: > >Yes. Was slow too ;-) > > Hey, now. I've actually used an i860. A 3D graphics terminal I worked on > in 91-93 used two: one for the control processor, one for the geometry unit Yeahh...the '860 is one hell of a number cruncher. Another place to find '860 chips is in SGI hardware. The RealityEngine video system uses eight i860s, and the RealityEngine^2 uses twelve of them. In each case they're used for geometric transforms. > I agree, intel has one butt-ugly architecture with the x86, but nobody in > their right minds can fault them for succeeding despite that. Given the > fact that they must live with the ugliness, their implementations are first > rate. ...and what blows my mind is the fact that, of all of their architectures, the one most unbelievably disgusting one is the one they keep selling buttloads of. -Dave McGuire From n8uhn at yahoo.com Wed May 23 23:14:41 2001 From: n8uhn at yahoo.com (BILL ALLEN) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: four-phase systems Message-ID: <20010524041441.12401.qmail@web9103.mail.yahoo.com> hi, i noticed a message concering four-phase systems equipment. i have been looking for four phase cpu's to complete a system that i am trying to restore. could the person please e-mail me back my address is n8uhn@yahoo.com. the photo links do not work as they moved the page but i would still like to see them. thankx,Bill (n8uhn@yahoo.com) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From claudew at videotron.ca Thu May 24 00:02:15 2001 From: claudew at videotron.ca (Claude.W) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: Some history : DEC VT-180 (Robin), IBM PC (Worm), Apple... Message-ID: <00bc01c0e40e$b3ab58c0$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> Hi all. Anybody ever heard about this? I found it amusing... I was told by a longtime local DEC employee that DEC came out with the ROBIN (VT-180) to compete with IBM PC and Apple II. He (and other DEC employees) were told this by DEC top management: "The system we wanna target is the Apple II and IBM is coming out with a new computer (IBM PC) code named WORM because it will eat up the Apple. Well, we are coming out with the computer named ROBIN (VT-180) beacause its gonna eat the WORM that ate the Apple...IBM is a 16 bit machine with almost no software running MSDOS, we will be running Z80 CP/M with thousands of available programs" Hmmm....Now I know where the name Robin came from... BTW if anyone need this, I have the full schematics for the robin somewhere around here... Claude http://computer_collector.tripod.com From spc at conman.org Thu May 24 00:06:39 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: Listserver Auction, was Re: Canon Cat In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at May 23, 2001 07:23:10 PM Message-ID: <200105240506.BAA09425@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Sellam Ismail once stated: > > On Wed, 23 May 2001, Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > > > You're looking at the glass as half empty. There are at least three > > major aspects which you have *not* considered: > > > > 1. He came to us, first. > > Only to see how much it was worth. We don't know that for sure. He saw the system and was curious as to what it was. I think several people emailed him wanting to buy it (Louis was the only one that did it via this list, from the recipients listed on the updates I think the others sent him email privately. I indicated an interested to the list, but I'm not that interested in buying it). I think he saw an opportunity and took advantage of it. I don't think it's that bad in what he did. Price is a bit high for my tastes but I guess there are people out there that really want a Cannon Cat. What if he had gone: ``I have several people who offered to buy it from me. Should I auction it off here, or what?'' -spc (But yeah, he does have to learn to quote properly 8-) From fernande at internet1.net Thu May 24 00:07:45 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: Need help References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010523200217.03126be0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <3B0C9721.83E140BF@internet1.net> Thats good Chuck :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Chuck McManis wrote: > > Deer Sir; > > I have just been given three ENIAC machines to display in a museum but they > are currently in Nigeria where they were used for nuclear weapons testing. > I can get them and preserve them for the National Museum of Science but I > need your help. They won't believe I am a serious collector unless I can > show them that I own a working PDP-1. I need you to box up and ship me a > working PDP-1 so that I can set it up and show it to them. Then they will > send me the three ENIACs by first class air mail. I will keep one, send one > to the museum and you can keep one. You will agree that an ENIAC, the first > digital computer, is much more valuable than a PDP-1 so you will understand > that I must keep the PDP-1 just in case they do a "surprise" inspection. > Thank you for your help, it is a good cause. > > Sincerely, > Prof. Peabody. > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > :-) From epgroot at ucdavis.edu Thu May 24 00:38:08 2001 From: epgroot at ucdavis.edu (Edwin P. Groot) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: What's in a No Name Computer? Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20010523223808.0069eba8@yellow.ucdavis.edu> Anyone know about the No Name Computers (NNC) company? I picked up a 20-slot S-100 mainframe model NNC 100 the other day and I'm not too sure what to make of it since my only S-100 experience is a Heath/Zenith Z-100. Did NNC market computer systems, or just the box of slots? The box has some boards, which were not seated in the slots. From lowest to highest slot number they are: CompuPro INTERFACER 4 CompuPro CPU 8085/88 CompuPro SYSTEM SUPPORT 1 CompuPro RAM20 CompuPro RAM20 CompuPro DISK 1 with 'BOOT CD/M.B' ROM I assume this machine has enough intelligence to boot a floppy, so a bootstrap doesn't have to be keyed in. Do you think it has enough intelligence to differentiate SS/DS and SD/DD drives? I also picked up some 8" floppies, but none of them say No Name Computers! The various labels are: Big Board CP/M, WordStar, SuperCalc, Typing Tutor, Easy Flow, SpellGuard, Vedit, SpellStar, ARC, dBaseII, DataStar, Rainbow BASIC, Rainbow Pascal, Cromemco CDOS, X-8, Turbo Pascal, SIG-M BigBoard, and Mix C. Do any of these seem likely candidates to boot this computer? Any help would be much appreciated! Edwin From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu May 24 00:46:25 2001 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:43 2005 Subject: VAX Equipment In-Reply-To: <18fd01c0e3b9$0cc73290$b423010a@dbnh> Message-ID: <20010524054625.34640.qmail@web9505.mail.yahoo.com> --- David Betz wrote: > Yes, I'm afraid I am guilty of subjecting the world to XLISP. ADVSYS, too, right? (and, thereby, the graphical "Leather Goddesses of Phobos 2" engine). I played with the ADVSYS stuff on the Amiga (from the Fish disks; I didn't read about it in Byte until much later). I think we've corresponded in a previous life about such things. -ethan ===== Visit "The Seventh Continent" http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From broekh at interchange.ubc.ca Thu May 24 01:39:23 2001 From: broekh at interchange.ubc.ca (Henry Broekhuyse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: What's in a No Name Computer? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20010523223808.0069eba8@yellow.ucdavis.edu> Message-ID: <000001c0e41c$4536a440$6401a8c0@thinkpad> Edwin P. Groot wrote: > Anyone know about the No Name Computers (NNC) company? > I picked up a 20-slot S-100 mainframe model NNC 100 the other day and > I'm not too sure what to make of it since my only S-100 experience is a > Heath/Zenith Z-100. Did NNC market computer systems, or just the box of > slots? > The box has some boards, which were not seated in the slots. From > lowest to highest slot number they are: > CompuPro INTERFACER 4 > CompuPro CPU 8085/88 > CompuPro SYSTEM SUPPORT 1 > CompuPro RAM20 > CompuPro RAM20 > CompuPro DISK 1 with 'BOOT CD/M.B' ROM > > I assume this machine has enough intelligence to boot a floppy, so a > bootstrap doesn't have to be keyed in. Do you think it has enough > intelligence to differentiate SS/DS and SD/DD drives? I also picked up > some 8" floppies, but none of them say No Name Computers! The various > labels are: Big Board CP/M, WordStar, SuperCalc, Typing Tutor, Easy Flow, > SpellGuard, Vedit, SpellStar, ARC, dBaseII, DataStar, Rainbow BASIC, > Rainbow Pascal, Cromemco CDOS, X-8, Turbo Pascal, SIG-M BigBoard, and Mix > C. Do any of these seem likely candidates to boot this computer? > Any help would be much appreciated! What you have is a basic set of boards required to boot and run either CompuPro CP/M-80 or CP/M-8/16. None of the disks you have is appropriately labelled, so almost certainly you do not have a "System Master" disk. It remains to be seen whether any of your disks will boot this system, despite the labelling. The disks "Big Board CP/M" and "Cromemco CDOS" are for other systems and are not potential candidates. The CompuPro DISK 1 floppy controller (in its default configuration) was designed for use with a DSDD 8" drive. CompuPro's version of CP/M would read standard SD CP/M floppy disks, and had several of its own DD formats. For a reasonable chance at getting this system up and running, you need at minimum a copy of the DISK1 manual and a CompuPro CP/M boot floppy. The DISK1 manual tells you how the other boards need to be configured, and also tells you which 8" drives it "preferred" and how the multitude of jumpers on these drives need to be set to make them work properly with this controller. Henry Broekhuyse From foo at siconic.com Thu May 24 00:52:50 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: IBM 5161 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 23 May 2001 Glenatacme@aol.com wrote: > One of these was in the middle of a big bunch of junk at the shop. Looks > like it's got two 5 MB hard drives inside. A large-diameter cable is > attached; evidently this connects to the "receiver" card in a PC. > > This may be distasteful, but I'm thinking of putting it on Ebay. Has > anyone ever seen one of these sell before? If so, for how much??? I know what it is and what it does, and about how common it is. And I have one. If you want any more specifics from me then I want 10% of whatever it goes for on eBay. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From Alan.Pearson at cramersystems.com Thu May 24 04:36:51 2001 From: Alan.Pearson at cramersystems.com (Alan Pearson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: UK Message-ID: > Besides, the UK doesn't seem all that well off according > to what I've read. Can't comment on the electrical aspects of this, but you're bang-on if you mean we're not very well off when it comes to finding classic computers :-) You folk in the US seem to be finding cool stuff every day, I'm lucky if I have more than a couple of worthwhile finds a year :-) Al From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu May 24 04:43:01 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: Need help In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010523200217.03126be0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <200105240943.LAA29594@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 23 May, Chuck McManis wrote: > an ENIAC, the first digital computer Ahhhm. May I remind you that ENIAC was finished in 1945/46. At that time Konrad Zuses Z3 (finished in 1941) was already working. See http://irb.cs.tu-berlin.de/~zuse/Konrad_Zuse/en/index.html for more details. Also Konrad Zuses invented Plankalk?l, the first complete high-level programming language. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ p.s. I think it is hard to say "XYZ was the first computer". In that time many "first computers" where build by independent people. From Alan.Pearson at cramersystems.com Thu May 24 04:51:48 2001 From: Alan.Pearson at cramersystems.com (Alan Pearson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: Tog and the interface (was: ID computer) Message-ID: > If you ever worked on a Xerox, where you had the copy/move/prop/... special > keys on the left hand side of your keyboard you'd know how easy handling can > be ... unlike todays interface, where you use the mouse for several thing, > here the little critter was only a pointing device, while you selected most > functions via keys (and your left hand). Heck yes, it's *way* better that what we've ended up with! I reckon things started going downhill when somebody dreamt up the menu bar - the original Star interface had a button bar across the top of the window where you could get at the few functions you couldn't provide by the left-hand keypad. None of this "hunt the menu option" rubbish you have to do now. IMHO the Star interface was, and still is, about as good as you're likely to get with the windows-icons-mouse paradigm. Look at the fuss Microsoft made about making the desktop more "document-centric" - that's what the Star desktop was all about in the first place! Something was lost when Apple implemented their own version of it, which Microsoft then copied. Al From rhblake at bigfoot.com Thu May 24 04:47:59 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: Need help In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010523200217.03126be0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: Okay Chuck, whatever you say... Sherman > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Chuck McManis > Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 10:07 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Need help > > > Deer Sir; > > I have just been given three ENIAC machines to display in a > museum but they > are currently in Nigeria where they were used for nuclear weapons > testing. > I can get them and preserve them for the National Museum of Science but I > need your help. They won't believe I am a serious collector unless I can > show them that I own a working PDP-1. I need you to box up and ship me a > working PDP-1 so that I can set it up and show it to them. Then they will > send me the three ENIACs by first class air mail. I will keep > one, send one > to the museum and you can keep one. You will agree that an ENIAC, > the first > digital computer, is much more valuable than a PDP-1 so you will > understand > that I must keep the PDP-1 just in case they do a "surprise" inspection. > Thank you for your help, it is a good cause. > > Sincerely, > Prof. Peabody. > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > :-) > From Alan.Pearson at cramersystems.com Thu May 24 05:03:01 2001 From: Alan.Pearson at cramersystems.com (Alan Pearson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: Xerox daybreak disk formatting question -- looong shot Message-ID: Whoa, 3 posts in one day, what's happenig to me :-) > I have a couple of daybreak machines with failing hard drives. I have the > 6085 offline diagnostic disk (2.0) which will format drives, but to do > formatting you need the system admin or tech support password. Does anyone > here happen to know one of these passwords? help! Yup - type "911" at the first menu prompt - after that you should get a lengthy message about how you shouldn't mess with commands if you don't know what you're doing (ie "call Xerox and we'll bill the s**t out of you for a 5 minute job")... Type "IAcceptTheRisk" at the second prompt (case doesn't actually matter, just did it for readability) and you should be in to the command prompt. A "?" shows you the options... Good luck! Al PS mesanet.com? Anything to do with the Mesa language? From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Thu May 24 05:17:38 2001 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: IBM 5161 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 23 May 2001 23:21:42 EDT Glenatacme@aol.com wrote: > One of these was in the middle of a big bunch of junk at the shop. Looks > like it's got two 5 MB hard drives inside. A large-diameter cable is > attached; evidently this connects to the "receiver" card in a PC. Is this the IBM PC "Expansion Chassis"? If it is, I have one here, attached to a PC. The PC has two floppy disks, EGA card, and memory expnaion, while the expansion chassis has two hard disks and the controler. > This may be distasteful, but I'm thinking of putting it on Ebay. Has anyone > ever seen one of these sell before? If so, for how much??? I bought the whole PC, with expansion chassis, keyboard and EGA screen for ten pounds, about eight years ago. Ten quid would be worth about $15 now? Of course, that was before Ebay... -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 24 06:03:12 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: Listserver Auction, was Re: Canon Cat In-Reply-To: References: <20010523.174419.-16634527.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010524055811.01dc4f00@pc> At 07:23 PM 5/23/01 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: >On Wed, 23 May 2001, Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > >> You're looking at the glass as half empty. There are at least three >> major aspects which you have *not* considered: >Yes, the glass is half empty, but someone drank the other half. I think George Carlin said, "some say the glass is half full, others say it is half empty. I say I see a glass that's twice as big as it needs to be." As for the Cat, the guy was smart enough to notice it and know it might be useful to this list - this puts him a notch above the person who dumpsters classics, and above the person who wants to sell their C-64 system for $300. So he learned it was worth 10x or 20x of what he might pay for it at Goodwill... what do you expect him to do, if he's not interested in keeping it for his collection? (If he has a collection. :) Selling it is human nature. Profit brought this machine to the list. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 24 05:54:55 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: OT electron microscope rescue Fwd: TEM-used Philips 301 Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010524055434.01e45bc0@pc> >Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 14:24:10 -0400 >From: Debbie Lietz >Subject: TEM-used Philips 301 >X-Sender: dlietz@mail.trentu.ca >To: Microscopy@sparc5.microscopy.com >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >The Microscopy ListServer -- Sponsor: The Microscopy Society of America To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- Send Email to ListServer@MSA.Microscopy.Com >On-Line Help http://www.msa.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html >-----------------------------------------------------------------------. > > >I have a Philips 301 microscope that needs a new home. It is in good running condition. There are a lot of spare parts and consumables to go along with the microscope. The mercury pump has been removed. The microscope is presently up and running but will soon need to be dismantled to free up the room for another microscope. If interested please email me directly. >Dismantling and shipping will be at the new owner's expense. > >Debbie Lietz >Electron Microscopy Technologist >Biology Department, Trent University >1600 Westbank Drive >Peterborough, Ontario >K9J 7B8 > >Tel: (705)748-1011 ext.1486 *** Fax: (705) 748-1205 ***Email: dlietz@trentu.ca From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 24 05:57:05 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: Need help In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010523200217.03126be0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010524055634.01cdd5f0@pc> At 08:06 PM 5/23/01 -0700, Chuck McManis wrote: >I have just been given three ENIAC machines to display in a museum but they are currently in Nigeria where they were used for nuclear weapons testing. As they say, you can't cheat an honest man. - John From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Thu May 24 06:48:41 2001 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: VAX Equipment References: <20010524054625.34640.qmail@web9505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1ad101c0e447$7ab90290$b423010a@dbnh> > ADVSYS, too, right? (and, thereby, the graphical "Leather Goddesses > of Phobos 2" engine). Yes, I did AdvSys too, and XScheme and Bob and a bunch of other things. It's nice to know that not *everyone* has forgotten them. Now I just have to port them to some classic computers so they'll be on topic for this newsgroup! :-) From pdp11 at bellsouth.net Thu May 24 06:59:44 2001 From: pdp11 at bellsouth.net (Doug Carman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: VAX bar References: <200105152042.OAA10050@calico.litterbox.com> <3B06C785.3243274E@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <3B0CF7B0.A0FE9901@bellsouth.net> Gunther Schadow wrote: > > Jim Strickland wrote: > > 2. 11/780s aren't > > especially uncommon. It WOULD be a tragedy if one of the wierd vaxen got made > > into a bar - a 9000, for example. But the 11/780 sold zillions - it launched > > the 32 bit minicomputer universe. > > Yes, but nevertheless they're hard to find these days. I bet there's about > no IT department that still runs one. Most of them are probably already > scrapped and some of them may reside in warehouses with those trade-used- > parts-for-twice-the-price dealerships. Since there's no demand of the kind > who would pay those high prices anymore, the last guard will probably see > the scrapyard in masses (with far less oportunity for someone to rescue > them.) The 11/780's that once sat in our computer center are long gone. However, we still have an 8650 (11/795). It's twin went to the scrap yard last year. There was no attempt to resell it, or the myriad of other DEC items that were removed from service at that time. They were all left standing in the rain before the local scrap dealer hauled them away. I was able to salvage some parts from the 8650 before we got rid of it, but it would have been impossible to have ever run the system outside a data center environment. The size, weight, massive cooling requirements and the 3 phase, 60 amp power circuit would prevent such a system from being a practical hobbyist computer. It's a shame to see them go, but there is not much else that can be done with them (except for making more VAX bars). -- Doug Carman pdp11@bellsouth.net From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1470.monmouth.com Thu May 24 07:22:14 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1470.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: Some history : DEC VT-180 (Robin) In-Reply-To: <00bc01c0e40e$b3ab58c0$6f00a8c0@GamerClaude> from "Claude.W" at "May 24, 2001 01:02:15 am" Message-ID: <200105241222.f4OCMEY19364@bg-tc-ppp1470.monmouth.com> > Hi all. > > Anybody ever heard about this? I found it amusing... > > I was told by a longtime local DEC employee that DEC came out with the ROBIN > (VT-180) to compete with IBM PC and Apple II. He (and other DEC employees) > were told this by DEC top management: > > "The system we wanna target is the Apple II and IBM is coming out with a new > computer (IBM PC) code named WORM because it will eat up the Apple. Well, we > are coming out with the computer named ROBIN (VT-180) beacause its gonna eat > the WORM that ate the Apple...IBM is a 16 bit machine with almost no > software running MSDOS, we will be running Z80 CP/M with thousands of > available programs" > Hmmm....Now I know where the name Robin came from... Actually the WORM was supposedly the codename for the Xerox 820 CP/M box. At least that's what the Robin Owners Group and DEC told me. > > > BTW if anyone need this, I have the full schematics for the robin somewhere > around here... > I've got one in the garage I promised to David Betz... If I ever get done with enough stuff to get it checked and packed... > Claude > http://computer_collector.tripod.com > > Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From at258 at osfn.org Thu May 24 08:41:25 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: Tog and the interface (was: ID computer) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I am just going to note that while I do prefer a command line to a GUI, not all GUI's are created equal. In Windows, IU find myself fiddling most of the time with the OS rather than actually accomplishing anything. This sort of activity is largely masturbatory rather than productive. I don't enjoy playing with Bill's little bits. I find switching from my Amiga to a Windows loss gives me a 30+% loss in productivity. On Thu, 24 May 2001, Alan Pearson wrote: > > If you ever worked on a Xerox, where you had the copy/move/prop/... > special > > keys on the left hand side of your keyboard you'd know how easy handling > can > > be ... unlike todays interface, where you use the mouse for several thing, > > here the little critter was only a pointing device, while you selected > most > > functions via keys (and your left hand). > > Heck yes, it's *way* better that what we've ended up with! I reckon things > started going downhill when somebody dreamt up the menu bar - the original > Star interface had a button bar across the top of the window where you could > get at the few functions you couldn't provide by the left-hand keypad. None > of this "hunt the menu option" rubbish you have to do now. > > IMHO the Star interface was, and still is, about as good as you're likely > to get with the windows-icons-mouse paradigm. Look at the fuss Microsoft > made about making the desktop more "document-centric" - that's what the Star > > desktop was all about in the first place! Something was lost when Apple > implemented their own version of it, which Microsoft then copied. > > Al > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Thu May 24 09:27:22 2001 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: tape drives Message-ID: Tape trivia/comments It seems that the way to make a really accurate tape drive, such as those used for telemetry is to have two independently controlled capstans with sensors attached to each. The "old" vacuum column tape drives were really interesting to watch as the level of the tape oscillated up and down in the column. There are some technologies used with the Omnimax movie format that might be applicable to magnetic data storage. They place timing marks along the edge of the film to allow the system to detect and correct the speed of the film. The also can digitally encode the sound along the edge of the film, there are however separate attempts to coordinate sound on a CD with the film. I read an article about how CD's are cut out from a optical tape media which has lowered the cost of manufacture. It might be neat to make a storage media that was optical tape 3 inches wide. On a slightly different topic, there were early attempts to make video tape recorders that were not helical but used 256 parallel tracks each with a separate head. You could fastforward 1 minute by switching heads. Tape handling was much simpler that with helical. There was lots of tape wear because of the number of tape passes. The heads were also expensive. I have also heard that the 4mm DAT tapes are good for about 100 tape passes, this would seem to mean that weekly backups and verifies might destroy a tape. I know that the tolerance levels are not very good, it seems to be difficult to restore on a drive different than the one that was used to create the tape. Tape standards seems to be much more vague. I remember 800 bpi 9-Track tapes very fondly. I still have several. Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu May 24 09:36:38 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: Warning!!! DON"T OPEN THAT!! Re: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs In-Reply-To: <20010524030628.KBJE28559.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: Unless of course you're using Pine, in which case you can fiddle with it however you like. *Evil Grin* g. On Wed, 23 May 2001 jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > That has a worm or vinus in it. delete it on sight don't open it. > > Cheers, > > Wizard: prior knowledge and my pegasus exposed it. > > From at258 at osfn.org Thu May 24 08:26:12 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: OT - Nigerian Pigeon Drop Scam In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20010523214827.01079ad0@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: It's also quite surprising how many Nigerians come here to run insurance scams, staging accidents, etc. On Wed, 23 May 2001, Carlos Murillo wrote: > At 01:08 PM 5/23/01 -0500, you wrote: > >On Wed, 23 May 2001 07:45:00 -0700 (PDT) Sellam Ismail > >writes: > >> Nigeria is like the scam capital of the world. I have no idea why. > >> Lax laws? Government complicity? A weakened sense of morals? :) > > > >Try All of the Above. > > Better be careful. Scamming is actually pretty common in the US. > It is mostly the elderly that are preyed upon. > > carlos. > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From vcf at siconic.com Thu May 24 09:01:58 2001 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: ADM = ? Message-ID: What does the ADM as in ADM-3A terminal stand for? Anyone? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Thu May 24 09:11:13 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: Listserver Auction, was Re: Canon Cat In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010524055811.01dc4f00@pc> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 May 2001, John Foust wrote: > Profit brought this machine to the list. Or maybe greed. (Couldn't resist...you made it too easy :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Thu May 24 09:07:31 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: Tog and the interface (was: ID computer) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 24 May 2001, Alan Pearson wrote: > IMHO the Star interface was, and still is, about as good as you're > likely to get with the windows-icons-mouse paradigm. Look at the fuss > Microsoft made about making the desktop more "document-centric" - > that's what the Star desktop was all about in the first place! > Something was lost when Apple implemented their own version of it, > which Microsoft then copied. I was convinced after seeing the "Last Star Demo" a few years back (1998?) that the Star interface was still years ahead of both Apple and MS. I wish I can remember fine details (I can only remember one in particular, where a person was able to create a mathematical formula the way it would be written on paper, with a real square root symbol, a division with the dividend over the divisor separated by a horizontal line, etc. and all this in the middle of a text document) but it's been a while. Just trust me when I say that Apple and MS still have plenty of catching up to do to even equal the Star. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu May 24 10:14:27 2001 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: ADM = ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 24 May 2001, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > What does the ADM as in ADM-3A terminal stand for? Anyone? Believe it or not: A_merican D_ream M_achine -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From brian.roth at firstniagarabank.com Thu May 24 10:21:48 2001 From: brian.roth at firstniagarabank.com (brian roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: OT - Nigerian Pigeon Drop Scam Message-ID: Next time you take a cruise, ask the captain what country the ship is registered in. Most likely it will be Nigeria. Its how these cruise lines get around the enviromental laws. Most if not all discharge their gray water(showers, laundry, kitchen waste) and black water(you guessed it!) untreated right into the sea. I wonder how many people would book a cruise knowing that their human waste would be blasted into the ocean by the ships macerator's. Brian. "Merle K. Peirce" wrote: It's also quite surprising how many Nigerians come here to run insurance scams, staging accidents, etc. Brian Roth Network Services First Niagara Bank (716) 625-7500 X2186 Brian.Roth@FirstNiagaraBank.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu May 24 10:38:33 2001 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: OT - Nigerian Pigeon Drop Scam In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010524153833.44177.qmail@web9503.mail.yahoo.com> --- brian roth wrote: > Next time you take a cruise, ask the captain what country the ship is > registered in. Most likely it will be Nigeria. I thought the favored nation for cruise lines was Liberia (for its liberal inspection requirements, among other things). They do mention in the fine print on TV ads the registry of the ship. -ethan ===== Visit "The Seventh Continent" http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From ip500 at home.com Thu May 24 11:09:43 2001 From: ip500 at home.com (ip500) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: i860 pictures Message-ID: <3B0D3247.CB530684@home.com> Cruising eBay I came across this auction for a bunch of i860 boards and rack ...pulled from an Intel Paragon ..seems a shame to pull it to pieces rather than keep in intact [but it shre ships easier that way!] I HAVE NO CONNECTION with this auction ... just been following the thread and thought I'd mention it. Craig From Glenatacme at aol.com Thu May 24 11:09:21 2001 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: IBM 5161 Message-ID: <111.2132a.283e8c31@aol.com> Mr. Ismail: Thank you for your prompt and kind reply. Please see my embedded comments below. In a message dated 5/24/01 2:58:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, foo@siconic.com writes: << I know what it is and what it does, So do I. A usenet search and a look at "Upgrading and Repairing PCs," first edition, produced this information. << and about how common it is. This I'm unsure of. << And I have one. Glad to hear it. << If you want any more specifics from me then I want 10% of whatever it << goes for on eBay. This is certainly a reasonable offer, *if* these specifics will add 10% to the sale price, and, since you seem so confident, you should have no problem forwarding this information to me so that I may determine the value of said information before agreeing to your terms. Please understand that I'm not a shameless money-grubber; I have never sold any computer equipment on Ebay before. I have been scratching my head for six months, trying to figure out what to do with this item other than just tossing it into the dumpster. Now I am in a position where I would like to sell it in order to obtain other classic computer items. Your recent comments suggest that you are not in favor of auctions being conducted on this list, so Ebay seemed to be my best venue for *converting* this unit into items I want, need, and will use. If you found my inquiry offensive, perhaps you can tell me what other group would be more informed about the current $$ value of classic computer items than the members of this list. Regards, Glen Goodwin 0/0 From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu May 24 11:25:09 2001 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: ADM = ? Message-ID: I still prefer what my dad calls it: A Dumb Machine. I don't see why people pay so much for those things, they're not even very good terminals. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From mtapley at swri.edu Thu May 24 11:26:36 2001 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: Kbd UIs (was Re: ID computer Message-ID: All, wanted to add my ($/50) to this debate. In any discussion of what's the best UI, you have to be pretty careful to completely define your metric. It may include not only what you are doing, but also the time it takes you to learn (or teach someone else) how to do it, or other factors. Examples: 1) I've watched a vi wizard at work. He's *blindingly* fast accomplishing tasks (rewriting code, re-compiling, etc). I have extreme doubts that I could ever approach his speed with a CLI/vi interface. *But* I can already get close with a mouse text editor. With enough practice, maybe I could get close with vi or emacs. But I don't want to practice that much. 2) I do a fair amount of work on remote boxes. Some are far enough across the internet that xterm isn't practical, or I have to work over a modem line. Telnet and a CLI are absolutely indispensable to me in those situations (and MICROS~1 Windows would be absolutely impossible to use). 3) I use some graphics/drawing programs. I can imagine trying to use them with no mouse - but I recoil in horror at the thought. My bottom line: both interfaces is the way to go. I can learn easily to do things pretty fast with a mouse, and for tasks I don't do that often, that's usually what I want. I can do things on a remote machine better with a CLI, and sometimes that's what I want. Both have their place. - Mark From fernande at internet1.net Thu May 24 11:50:07 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: IBM 5161 References: Message-ID: <3B0D3BBF.635AE4A8@internet1.net> 8 years ago it wasn't a classic PC, it was just old. Quite a few more were in existance at that time too. I have never seen the expansion chassis. If I was still actively collecting IBM PC equipment, I would be bidding myself. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA John Honniball wrote: > I bought the whole PC, with expansion chassis, keyboard and > EGA screen for ten pounds, about eight years ago. Ten quid > would be worth about $15 now? Of course, that was before > Ebay... > > -- > John Honniball > Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk > University of the West of England From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Thu May 24 12:03:33 2001 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: Some history : DEC VT-180 (Robin) References: <200105241222.f4OCMEY19364@bg-tc-ppp1470.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <1d2001c0e473$7743d500$b423010a@dbnh> > I've got one in the garage I promised to David Betz... > If I ever get done with enough stuff to get it checked and packed... Really? I had completely forgotten about that. Can I do something for you in exchange? From allain at panix.com Thu May 24 12:29:23 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: ID this board: M7165 References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010523200217.03126be0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <000b01c0e477$13a07d60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Hi, This guy is auctioning a: Vax QBUS KDA50 Disk Ctl (M7165) http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1240600239 What sort of interface is this? It almost looks SMD. Guess it isn't, also rule out SCSI and MFM, by appearances. Standard disflamer: This is Not my auction. John A. From pcw at mesanet.com Thu May 24 12:36:20 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: Xerox daybreak disk formatting question -- looong shot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 24 May 2001, Alan Pearson wrote: > Whoa, 3 posts in one day, what's happenig to me :-) > > > I have a couple of daybreak machines with failing hard drives. I have the > > 6085 offline diagnostic disk (2.0) which will format drives, but to do > > formatting you need the system admin or tech support password. Does anyone > > here happen to know one of these passwords? help! > > Yup - type "911" at the first menu prompt - after that you should get a > lengthy > message about how you shouldn't mess with commands if you don't know what > you're > doing (ie "call Xerox and we'll bill the s**t out of you for a 5 minute > job")... > Type "IAcceptTheRisk" at the second prompt (case doesn't actually matter, > just > did it for readability) and you should be in to the command prompt. A "?" > shows > you the options... Great - and Thanks! I will try it this evening! > > Good luck! > Al > > PS mesanet.com? Anything to do with the Mesa language? > No just our company name... though who knows, maybe I was influenced by the Mesa Users Guide on my bookshelf when I made up the name (15 years ago) Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From brian.roth at firstniagarabank.com Thu May 24 12:41:32 2001 From: brian.roth at firstniagarabank.com (brian roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: I stand corrected as I was working from faded memory. I knew I was in the right eria ;> Message-ID: I stand corrected as I was working from faded memory. I knew I was in the right eria ;> Travesty all the same. Brian. ______________________________________________ -- brian roth wrote: > Next time you take a cruise, ask the captain what country the ship is > registered in. Most likely it will be Nigeria. I thought the favored nation for cruise lines was Liberia (for its liberal inspection requirements, among other things). They do mention in the fine print on TV ads the registry of the ship. -ethan Brian Roth Network Services First Niagara Bank (716) 625-7500 X2186 Brian.Roth@FirstNiagaraBank.com From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Thu May 24 11:37:18 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: OT - Nigerian Pigeon Drop Scam In-Reply-To: <20010524153833.44177.qmail@web9503.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010524123718.00dfb760@obregon.multi.net.co> At 08:38 AM 5/24/01 -0700, you wrote: >--- brian roth wrote: >> Next time you take a cruise, ask the captain what country the ship is >> registered in. Most likely it will be Nigeria. > >I thought the favored nation for cruise lines was Liberia (for its liberal >inspection requirements, among other things). They do mention in the fine >print on TV ads the registry of the ship. > >-ethan Liberia is correct. There are also tax and registry cost issues. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu May 24 12:56:40 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: ID this board: M7165 In-Reply-To: <000b01c0e477$13a07d60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: It's for controlling drives like the RA81 and RA92. g. On Thu, 24 May 2001, John Allain wrote: > Hi, > > This guy is auctioning a: > Vax QBUS KDA50 Disk Ctl (M7165) > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1240600239 > > What sort of interface is this? It almost looks SMD. > Guess it isn't, also rule out SCSI and MFM, by appearances. > > Standard disflamer: This is Not my auction. > John A. > > From fernande at internet1.net Thu May 24 12:57:49 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: ID this board: M7165 References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010523200217.03126be0@208.226.86.10> <000b01c0e477$13a07d60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <3B0D4B9D.F38CE5D6@internet1.net> It's SDI, whatever that is. I have the same board sitting here on my lap. Unfortunetly is is only 1 board of a 2 board set :-( I wouldn'y bid on it. If you really want one you can have mine.... it's not doing me any good. I bought it in a group of boards. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA John Allain wrote: > > Hi, > > This guy is auctioning a: > Vax QBUS KDA50 Disk Ctl (M7165) > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1240600239 > > What sort of interface is this? It almost looks SMD. > Guess it isn't, also rule out SCSI and MFM, by appearances. > > Standard disflamer: This is Not my auction. > John A. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 24 12:51:59 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: IBM 5161 In-Reply-To: from "Glenatacme@aol.com" at May 23, 1 11:21:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2206 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010524/54c3f2c3/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 24 12:54:47 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: Wanted: iAPX-432 In-Reply-To: <15116.35293.964658.805289@phaduka.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at May 24, 1 00:11:09 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 518 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010524/7841ce7e/attachment.ksh From pcw at mesanet.com Thu May 24 13:04:18 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: ID this board: M7165 In-Reply-To: <000b01c0e477$13a07d60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 May 2001, John Allain wrote: > Hi, > > This guy is auctioning a: > Vax QBUS KDA50 Disk Ctl (M7165) > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1240600239 > > What sort of interface is this? It almost looks SMD. > Guess it isn't, also rule out SCSI and MFM, by appearances. SDI? > > Standard disflamer: This is Not my auction. > John A. > > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From engdahl at cle.ab.com Thu May 24 13:12:46 2001 From: engdahl at cle.ab.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: ID this board: M7165 References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010523200217.03126be0@208.226.86.10> <000b01c0e477$13a07d60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <000901c0e47d$22765840$174099a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> >From Megan Gentry's Field Guide to the PDP-11: ------------------------------------------------------------------------- M7164 KDA50-Q Q Qbus SDI disk adapter, Q22 (1 of 2) (QDA SDI) M7164 Refs: EK-KDA5Q-UG, uNOTE N#041 M7165 KDA50-Q Q Qbus SDI disk adapter, Q22 (2 of 2) (QDA SDI) M7165 Refs: EK-KDA5Q-UG, uNOTE N#041 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- It looks like what you have here is 1/2 of an SDI adapter. Now the next question: what is SDI? I'll assume for now that is was an early approximation to SCSI, something proprietary to DEC. Nice card ejectors though -- I need a set for a recently purchased S-box KDJ11-SD. -- Jonathan Engdahl Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer 24800 Tungsten Road Advanced Technology Euclid, OH 44117 USA Euclid Labs engdahl@cle.ab.com 216-266-6409 ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allain" To: Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 1:29 PM Subject: ID this board: M7165 > Hi, > > This guy is auctioning a: > Vax QBUS KDA50 Disk Ctl (M7165) > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1240600239 > > What sort of interface is this? It almost looks SMD. > Guess it isn't, also rule out SCSI and MFM, by appearances. > > Standard disflamer: This is Not my auction. > John A. > From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Thu May 24 13:10:01 2001 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: ID this board: M7165 Message-ID: <20010524.131239.-16680693.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Thu, 24 May 2001 10:56:40 -0700 (PDT) Gene Buckle writes: > It's for controlling drives like the RA81 and RA92. > > g. Yeah, it's SDI, according to the field guide. Dammit. > > On Thu, 24 May 2001, John Allain wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > This guy is auctioning a: > > Vax QBUS KDA50 Disk Ctl (M7165) > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1240600239 > > > > What sort of interface is this? It almost looks SMD. > > Guess it isn't, also rule out SCSI and MFM, by appearances. > > > > Standard disflamer: This is Not my auction. > > John A. > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Thu May 24 13:12:38 2001 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: Xerox daybreak disk formatting question -- looong shot Message-ID: <20010524.131239.-16680693.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Thu, 24 May 2001 10:36:20 -0700 (PDT) "Peter C. Wallace" writes: > >Great - and Thanks! I will try it this evening! > > > > Good luck! > > Al > > > > PS mesanet.com? Anything to do with the Mesa language? > > > > > No just our company name... though who knows, maybe I was influenced > by the Mesa Users Guide on my bookshelf when I made up the name (15 > years ago) Wasn't it also the name of the processor chip used in the Daybreak? ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu May 24 13:37:20 2001 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: ADM = ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010524133720.00866c80@ubanproductions.com> At the time, they were fairly cheap in comparison to other "more intelligent" terminals, and they were one of the few which could keep up at a full serial line rate without handshaking. I worked at Purdue University's Engineering Computer Network back in the early 80's and we used then for that reason. Most ran at either 9600 or 19200, but we modified a few to run at 38400 and they could keep up with that speed as well... --tom At 10:25 AM 5/24/01 -0600, you wrote: >I still prefer what my dad calls it: A Dumb Machine. I don't see why people >pay so much for those things, they're not even very good terminals. >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > From pcw at mesanet.com Thu May 24 13:48:49 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: Xerox daybreak disk formatting question -- looong shot In-Reply-To: <20010524.131239.-16680693.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 May 2001, Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > > > On Thu, 24 May 2001 10:36:20 -0700 (PDT) "Peter C. Wallace" > writes: > > >Great - and Thanks! I will try it this evening! > > > > > > Good luck! > > > Al > > > > > > PS mesanet.com? Anything to do with the Mesa language? > > > > > > > > > No just our company name... though who knows, maybe I was influenced > > by the Mesa Users Guide on my bookshelf when I made up the name (15 > > years ago) > > Wasn't it also the name of the processor chip used in the Daybreak? Yes, all of the Xerox Workstations from the Alto on use a Mesa processor, A little like a Nova but with Writable Control Store (WCS). Probably made with MSI/SSI TTL in the Alto, 2900 bit slices in the Dandelion. Not sure whether Daybreak uses 2900 bit slices or ASICs - got to look at one of my cards... > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 24 13:51:27 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: Anybody need any M/A-COM ALANTHUS DATA, Inc. distribution disk? Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010524144146.00a6a4e0@mailhost.intellistar.net> I went scrounging again this morning and found a box of 9 - 8" floppy disks. The disks are original distribution disks for M/A-COM Standard Software 9.1, IWS Initialization, Software Developement and CTOS build. Does anyone need them? If so you can have them for shipping cost AND 1) $10 (my cost) or 2) just return them when yuou're finished with them or 3) replace them with new disks. All of the disks are in like new condition. I don't know what M/A-COM ALANTHUS DATA, Inc. is but 8 of the disks are in sleeves that are marked "Savin IS 2000" if that means anything. joe From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu May 24 13:52:22 2001 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: ID this board: M7165 In-Reply-To: "from Peter C. Wallace at May 24, 2001 11:04:18 am" Message-ID: <200105241852.NAA28971@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > > > This guy is auctioning a: > > Vax QBUS KDA50 Disk Ctl (M7165) > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1240600239 > > > > What sort of interface is this? It almost looks SMD. > > Guess it isn't, also rule out SCSI and MFM, by appearances. > > SDI? > Strategic Defense Initiative. Due to its age, it is no doubt a key component for President Reagan's Star-Wars missile defense program ;) -Lawrence LeMay From ecloud at bigfoot.com Thu May 24 14:20:27 2001 From: ecloud at bigfoot.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: Tog and the interface (was: ID computer) In-Reply-To: ; from foo@siconic.com on Thu, May 24, 2001 at 07:07:31AM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20010524122027.B1578@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 07:07:31AM -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: > wish I can remember fine details (I can only remember one in particular, > where a person was able to create a mathematical formula the way it would > be written on paper, with a real square root symbol, a division with the > dividend over the divisor separated by a horizontal line, etc. and all > this in the middle of a text document) but it's been a while. MathCAD does that but it only runs on Windows. Some day I'd like to write something similar as an open-source project, but only the front end... I'm not enough of a mathematician to write all the algorithms to actually do stuff with the equations. (I started using MathCAD back in the late 80's on DOS, so it's even sortof on-topic... amazing what they accomplished without a lot of processing power, or even using graphics mode.) LyX has a passable equation editor too. -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 24 14:19:09 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: ID this board: M7165 In-Reply-To: Re: ID this board: M7165 (Jonathan Engdahl) References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010523200217.03126be0@208.226.86.10> <000b01c0e477$13a07d60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <000901c0e47d$22765840$174099a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> Message-ID: <15117.24237.804995.946658@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 24, Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > It looks like what you have here is 1/2 of an SDI adapter. Yup. > Now the next question: what is SDI? I'll assume for now that is was an early > approximation to SCSI, something proprietary to DEC. It has *nothing* to do with SCSI. SDI is a relatively high-performance (amazing for its day) high-level command-based interface that is used to connect to DEC RA-seris drives. It uses small cables that contain four pieces of 1/8" coaxial cable that terminate in an 8-pin Berg-like connector. It's useless without the other board, and they're both useless if you don't want to run RA-series disks. Contrary to popular belief, not all RA-series disks are huge (14" platters) and power hungry. I have a stack of 1GB 5.25" RA73 disks that are rather nice. -Dave McGuire From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu May 24 14:23:53 2001 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: ADM = ? Message-ID: No, I was meaning why do they go for so much now.. They're certainly not rare or for that matter, reliable. Not to mention that I find them ugly, ugly, ugly! But that last part was opinion.. Still, if you need a terminal today, get like a wyse-55 or something. Will J _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From rdd at smart.net Thu May 24 14:30:24 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:44 2005 Subject: Warning!!! DON"T OPEN THAT!! Re: Snowhite and the Seven Dwarfs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 24 May 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > Unless of course you're using Pine, in which case you can fiddle with it > however you like. *Evil Grin* Since this is a group of people whom are supposed to be knowledgeable about computers, one would think that just about everyone here would be using something other than that Microsoft virus which is prone to attacks by other viri, and hence not affected by such thigns. :-) -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From ecloud at bigfoot.com Thu May 24 14:27:23 2001 From: ecloud at bigfoot.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: Tog and the interface (was: ID computer) In-Reply-To: <3B0C1043.19882.1AB7A603@localhost>; from Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de on Wed, May 23, 2001 at 07:32:19PM +0200 References: <4.3.2.7.0.20010523101022.01d66e50@pc> <200105231706.NAA08388@conman.org> <3B0C1043.19882.1AB7A603@localhost> Message-ID: <20010524122723.C1578@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 07:32:19PM +0200, Hans Franke wrote: > If you ever worked on a Xerox, where you had the copy/move/prop/... special > keys on the left hand side of your keyboard you'd know how easy handling can > be ... unlike todays interface, where you use the mouse for several thing, > here the little critter was only a pointing device, while you selected most > functions via keys (and your left hand). In fact, I still belive we schould > go back there and add some keys - the old PC Keyboard could be used in a > similar way, and one of my first tasks I did with GEM on the PC was a Desktop > which used the function keys in a way similar to the Xerox system. I think function keys should have little LCD displays in them. (And there are POS keyboards which really do have these.) OTOH, usability folks would probably say that the functions of the function keys should always be the same anyway. For most apps that's probably true. Sun keyboards still have a column of function keys along the left, and I haven't seen any software use them. Well I wouldn't be surprised if some of the CDE apps do... anybody know what apps use them the best? It does seem like a good idea. -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 24 14:33:08 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: Wanted: iAPX-432 In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20010523220036.010954d8@obregon.multi.net.co> References: <15116.10299.834599.609405@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3B0BD683.EAA00AD2@ecubics.com> <200105231553.f4NFrwW03122@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010524153204.00a67030@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 10:00 PM 5/23/01 -0400, you wrote: >At 05:14 PM 5/23/01 -0400, you wrote: > >On May 23, Eric Dittman wrote: > >> > > all the delays. I could be completely off, but didn't some > >> > > of the processor features get implemented in the i860? > >> > Yes. Was slow too ;-) > >> The i860 did find success as an embedded controller, though. > > Still does, too. > >> I never did look at the i960 features; was it an improved > >> i860 or was it a completely new processor? > > > > Completely new processor.. > > -Dave McGuire > >I remember that there were ISA boards with multiple i860's >offered back then; the idea was to have lots of number-crunching >power in a PC back then. However, I never saw similar >products based on i960. I believe that the i860 was geared >more towards float processing/embedded control/multi user OS/ >parallel processing architectures and the i960 was strictly for >embedded control, with emphasis on integer performance. >You'll find i960's in many HP laser printers. You also find them in a most X-terminals. In fact, I think every X-terminal that I have checked used them. Joe >carlos. > >-------------------------------------------------------------- >Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 24 14:34:30 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: ADM = ? In-Reply-To: Re: ADM = ? (Will Jennings) References: Message-ID: <15117.25158.467100.894248@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 24, Will Jennings wrote: > I still prefer what my dad calls it: A Dumb Machine. I don't see why people > pay so much for those things, they're not even very good terminals. Primarily because of their historical significance, I would imagine. -Dave McGuire From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 24 14:36:03 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: ADM = ? In-Reply-To: Re: ADM = ? (Will Jennings) References: Message-ID: <15117.25251.335069.492791@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 24, Will Jennings wrote: > No, I was meaning why do they go for so much now.. They're certainly not > rare or for that matter, reliable. Not to mention that I find them ugly, > ugly, ugly! But that last part was opinion.. Still, if you need a terminal > today, get like a wyse-55 or something. Not rare? They're pretty rare from where I'm sitting. Not to be argumentative, but I've seen ONE (an ADM-5, now in my basement) in all my travels in about the past ten years. -Dave McGuire From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 24 14:44:38 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: Listserver Auction, was Re: Canon Cat In-Reply-To: References: <3B0C1182.1BB522E3@rain.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010524153359.00a65700@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 07:17 PM 5/23/01 -0700, Sellam wrote: >I was going to try to let this die but... :) > >I have no problem with having an auction here instead of on eBay, with >some exceptions. > >First of all, it seems to me Chris has not real interest in preserving a >computer. His only interest seems to be how much money he could make off >of a computer that a bunch of people told him that, in their opinion, it >was rare. Then, he starts an "auction" without even having said machine >in his own possession. That's nigh akin to fraud. I don't think it's fraud but it's certainly risky. I've found odd things that I didn't buy. Then I checked on the net and foudn out what they were and decided to get them. However when I returned they were usually gone. Rule 1. Don't offer it for sale until it's in your posession. >Personally, I'd prefer to keep this list free of people who only have an >economic interest in this here hobby. I don't appreciate spending my time >dispensing knowledge or what not so that others can shamelessly make a >dime on it. If they do it in some other forum at least, then I won't have >to see it and won't care. I disagree. This list is specificly about collecting and preserving old computers. I think Chris has done this group a favor by only offering it here instead of immediately taking it to E-OverPay. If you don't want see the offer or participate that's your choice but I think it's very appropriate to offer it here. HOWEVER once he starts the bidding I think he should only announce the current bid to the bidders and not to the entire list. (Chris I'm not picking on you, this applies to anyone doing the same thing.) Joe From rdd at smart.net Thu May 24 14:59:06 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: Tog and the interface (was: ID computer) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 24 May 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > I was convinced after seeing the "Last Star Demo" a few years back (1998?) > that the Star interface was still years ahead of both Apple and MS. I Back in the mid 1990s, I worked with a Xerox workstation (I forget the model number; it may have been a Star) which was running some sort of graphical user interface that was used for documentation of PL/M programs for defense department work at Westinghouse. The only good thing about using that machine was a Chinese puzzle game that I discovered, which I spent many hours playing when I'd get bored with the work, which I often did, to help quitting time arrive a little faster. It was the most boring and hacker unfriendly machine that I ever played with; trying to wander through, and find, files, amongst a very large number of files, using that GUI, was a pain, to say the least. Somerhere, I've got the model number written down, along with the OS... I think the OS was [something]-Point (Viewpoint?) or some odd sounding OS name. Fortunately, I was spared from that boring work by defense dept. budget cuts. :-) There was no hackworthy technical documentation about those machines to be found anywhere, and no one there knew much of anything about them, other than how to use them to edit documents. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 24 14:49:49 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: Xerox daybreak disk formatting question -- looong shot In-Reply-To: <20010524.131239.-16680693.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> from "Jeffrey l Kaneko" at May 24, 1 01:12:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 316 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010524/42fc1648/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 24 14:51:21 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: Xerox daybreak disk formatting question -- looong shot In-Reply-To: from "Peter C. Wallace" at May 24, 1 11:48:49 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 477 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010524/704b387e/attachment.ksh From rdd at smart.net Thu May 24 15:10:14 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: VAX bar In-Reply-To: <3B0CF7B0.A0FE9901@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 May 2001, Doug Carman wrote: > all left standing in the rain before the local scrap dealer hauled them > away. I was able to salvage some parts from the 8650 before we got rid > of it, but it would have been impossible to have ever run the system > outside a data center environment. The size, weight, massive cooling > requirements and the 3 phase, 60 amp power circuit would prevent such a > system from being a practical hobbyist computer. It's a shame to see Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall there being people on this list who do use such systems at home. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu May 24 15:07:41 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: ID this board: M7165 In-Reply-To: <000901c0e47d$22765840$174099a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> Message-ID: <200105242007.WAA00827@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 24 May, Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > Now the next question: what is SDI? I'll assume for now that is was an early > approximation to SCSI, something proprietary to DEC. http://www.netbsd.org/Documentation/Hardware/Machines/DEC/vax/busses.html#busses:sdi Is all I know and I am interrested to know more about SDI. (The same for DSSI.) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Thu May 24 15:11:19 2001 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: Wanted: iAPX-432 Message-ID: <20010524.152123.-16574517.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Thu, 24 May 2001 15:33:08 -0400 joe writes: > >I remember that there were ISA boards with multiple i860's > >offered back then; the idea was to have lots of number-crunching > >power in a PC back then. However, I never saw similar > >products based on i960. I believe that the i860 was geared > >more towards float processing/embedded control/multi user OS/ > >parallel processing architectures and the i960 was strictly for > >embedded control, with emphasis on integer performance. > >You'll find i960's in many HP laser printers. > > > You also find them in a most X-terminals. In fact, I think > every X-terminal that I have checked used them. Interesting-- so far, all of the Xterms I've seen use either MIPS or Motorola chips. I have seen them in alot of telecom and cellular equipment, though . . . ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Thu May 24 15:05:02 2001 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: ADM = ? Message-ID: <20010524.152123.-16574517.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> I used them myself for the two years I went to college (the school had a PDP-11/70 I think). As for speed, have you ever looked inside one of these things? Late one nite, I had nothing better to do than poke around stuff in the computer lab; indide I found one *big* board, covered with what I think was TTL. No uP, all random logic, *no* processing overhead. Talk about 'real time' . . . .. On Thu, 24 May 2001 13:37:20 -0500 Tom Uban writes: > At the time, they were fairly cheap in comparison to other "more > intelligent" > terminals, and they were one of the few which could keep up at a > full serial > line rate without handshaking. I worked at Purdue University's > Engineering > Computer Network back in the early 80's and we used then for that > reason. Most > ran at either 9600 or 19200, but we modified a few to run at 38400 > and they > could keep up with that speed as well... > > --tom ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From celigne at tinyworld.co.uk Thu May 24 15:23:51 2001 From: celigne at tinyworld.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: ADM = ? References: Message-ID: <3B0D6DD7.F4121B6E@tinyworld.co.uk> James Willing wrote: > > On Thu, 24 May 2001, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > What does the ADM as in ADM-3A terminal stand for? Anyone? > > Believe it or not: > > A_merican > D_ream > M_achine When this topic came up on comp.terminals and a.f.c a few months ago, someone claimed that this phrase was used in the adverts for the machine. What makes you think this is correct? (I'm not doubting you, but it would be nice to see any evidence for this.) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 24 15:26:31 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: Wanted: iAPX-432 In-Reply-To: <20010524.152123.-16574517.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> from "Jeffrey l Kaneko" at May 24, 1 03:11:19 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 601 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010524/4c35d80e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 24 15:29:39 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: ADM = ? In-Reply-To: <20010524.152123.-16574517.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> from "Jeffrey l Kaneko" at May 24, 1 03:05:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 952 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010524/4ee99e6d/attachment.ksh From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1383.monmouth.com Thu May 24 15:47:07 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1383.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: Some history : DEC VT-180 (Robin) In-Reply-To: <1d2001c0e473$7743d500$b423010a@dbnh> from David Betz at "May 24, 2001 01:03:33 pm" Message-ID: <200105242047.f4OKl7J21094@bg-tc-ppp1383.monmouth.com> > > I've got one in the garage I promised to David Betz... > > If I ever get done with enough stuff to get it checked and packed... > > Really? I had completely forgotten about that. Can I do something for you in > exchange? just be patient until I clean up the messes here... I've got a Rainbow, Pro350 and VT180 to unload in a cleanup effort. (Not to mention some Sun Hardware -- and I'm trying to find something that'll run VAX/VMS or Solaris8.) Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu May 24 15:54:00 2001 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: ADM = ? Message-ID: Well the manual certainly never says what ADM stands for, I can tell you that... As for rarity, I know where there is an ADM-3 or 3A or perhaps another model right now. It's sitting around at a customer, collecting dust. Now give me a Hazeltine 1500, and I'm interested : ) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From celigne at tinyworld.co.uk Thu May 24 16:00:36 2001 From: celigne at tinyworld.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: ADM style (and Lynwood and MICROSCRIBE) [was: ADM = ?] References: Message-ID: <3B0D7674.3D6311EF@tinyworld.co.uk> Will Jennings wrote: > > Not to mention that I find them ugly, ugly, ugly! Burn the witch! Those all-in-one designs are style classics, like my TeleVideo 910+ and 912. On the subject of terminals, I've just acquired two more. The first is a Lynwood j500, dating from 1990, a colour VT220-compatible graphical terminal with the largest number of custom keys I have ever seen on a keyboard. It also takes a mouse, though I've not got one, or the specification for it. This black beast used to be in service with police forces in the UK, but they're now being replaced by PCs (boo, hiss). Lynwood also specialised in TEMPEST equipment for MoD sites, but it's years since I've used any of their other terminals. It is powered by a Z8000. The second one is a cute little MICROSCRIBE T.E. (Text Editor), a 1984-vintage terminal by a company from Wales that used to be called Terminal Technology. They appear to still be around and called Microscribe, though the website at http://www.microscribe.co.uk/ claims they started in 1985. Perhaps they mean that their current name dates from then -- I haven't asked yet. This has a 40-character, 2-line LCD display and either acts as a document editor with its whopping 10KB memory, or a straightforward mini terminal. We used to use them to monitor our embedded systems. This contains an HD6303 processor, which I was delighted to find is documented all over the place on the Web, as it was also used in the Psion II. This came with a manual, which I tried to scan and convert to a PDF last night, but the 20 pages produced a shocking 5MB file. I think I'll revert to my usual technique of putting an HTML version online. From dittman at dittman.net Thu May 24 16:27:51 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: ADM = ? In-Reply-To: from "Will Jennings" at May 24, 2001 01:23:53 PM Message-ID: <200105242127.f4OLRpH08881@narnia.int.dittman.net> > No, I was meaning why do they go for so much now.. They're certainly not > rare or for that matter, reliable. Not to mention that I find them ugly, > ugly, ugly! But that last part was opinion.. Still, if you need a terminal > today, get like a wyse-55 or something. I see ADM3A terminals all the time, in computer stores. They are funny colored now, and have a detached keyboard, and don't work the same. For some reason they are called iMacs now. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 24 16:24:18 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: ADM = ? In-Reply-To: Re: ADM = ? (Will Jennings) References: Message-ID: <15117.31746.365254.937445@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 24, Will Jennings wrote: > Now give me a Hazeltine 1500, and I'm interested : ) I've been looking for one of those for a while. I used one on my imsai box years ago; I'd like to have one around for posterity. -Dave McGuire From emu at ecubics.com Thu May 24 16:56:40 2001 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: Wanted: iAPX-432 References: <200105231513.f4NFDTo02968@narnia.int.dittman.net> <4.3.2.7.0.20010523203843.00bf9650@postoffice.pacbell.net> Message-ID: <3B0D8398.E9583BC9@ecubics.com> Jim Battle wrote: > > >Yes. Was slow too ;-) > > Hey, now. I've actually used an i860. I still use them. Sitting in myu DecStattion Pmax & doing graphics ;-) > For its time, it was the best deal around for doing floating > point. Getting the maximum rated performance out of it required a lot of > very careful hand scheduling of instructions, but that's true of most > processors. The problem at the beginning with this CPU was, that intel liked to announce it as a "cray on the desktop". And I never saw a bigger discrepancy between a data sheet and the actual performance. > I also believe it was the first microprocessor that had more > than 1M transistors, though a lot of that was contained in the two > caches. Looking at the die photos, looks like a SRAM ;-) > It could dispatch two floating point ops per cycle, and that was > back in 1991. And intel "invented" MMX & SIMD ten years later again ;-) > The 860 had a few problems. ... And, the execution times of many instructions (arithm) were dependend on the operands. But, to say something nice, it was easy to design with. 8-bit boot eprom 64-easy data bits, same MMU as the 80386, ... Hauppage made a nice board, havin a 486 & a 860 with shared memory. cheers From norm.anheier at pnl.gov Thu May 24 16:52:53 2001 From: norm.anheier at pnl.gov (Anheier, Norman C Jr) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: Wanted: iAPX-432 Message-ID: <228C5EBB26701542946C14D5205AE6D5011B27C1@pnlmse08.pnl.gov> I wanted to thank all that replied to my inquiry regarding Intel's iAPX-432 processor. It seems the main consensus is that Intel never released this product. If anyone has information to the contrary please speak up, otherwise I'll drop this from my collection list. Thanks again Norm From emu at ecubics.com Thu May 24 17:00:03 2001 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: Wanted: iAPX-432 References: Message-ID: <3B0D8463.2FD61C3D@ecubics.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > An Xtermianl I have here uses a TI 34010 as the main processor. Yes, a > graphics processor chip. The Xserver (a very old version, may even be > X10...) is in a row of EPROMs on a daughterboard that plugs into video board. You're talking about the VXT1200 ? From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 24 17:02:28 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: ADM = ? In-Reply-To: Re: ADM = ? (Eric Dittman) References: <200105242127.f4OLRpH08881@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <15117.34036.255163.155095@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 24, Eric Dittman wrote: > I see ADM3A terminals all the time, in computer stores. > They are funny colored now, and have a detached keyboard, > and don't work the same. For some reason they are called > iMacs now. *snicker* I almost bought an iMac when they came out just so I could put it on a desk next to my ADM-5. :) -Dave McGuire From aek at spies.com Thu May 24 17:06:53 2001 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: The MESA processor architecture Message-ID: <200105242206.PAA09987@spies.com> "Yes, all of the Xerox Workstations from the Alto on use a Mesa processor, A little like a Nova but with Writable Control Store (WCS)." Completely false. One of the Alto instruction sets was an extended Nova. The MESA machine is more like an HP3000 than a Nova. It is defined in the MESA "Princeops" manual. Alan Freier had this on line at one point, not sure if anyone saved a copy. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 24 17:05:09 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: Wanted: iAPX-432 In-Reply-To: <3B0D8463.2FD61C3D@ecubics.com> from "emanuel stiebler" at May 24, 1 04:00:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1572 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010524/d1376dd6/attachment.ksh From optimus at canit.se Thu May 24 06:46:10 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: Kbd UIs (was Re: ID computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <709.544T500T7664417optimus@canit.se> liste skrev: >On 23-May-2001 John Allain wrote: >> Unix: the power of the commandline and sumpeme interoperability. >> Could someone show me how to automate Excel and Word together >> in one bat file? Oh that's right, I have to buy VB. And keep >> upgrading it. >Perl + Win32::OLE >http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Downloads/ActivePerl/ >or just plain VBA (which comes with Word or Excel, I belive) >Batch files were barely able to do complex tasks in DOS, so forget about >Windows. And I must say that batch files are laughably impotent compared to inter- process scripting, such as with ARexx. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Amiga 4000/040 25MHz/44MB/20GB RetinaBLTZ3/VLab/FastlaneZ3/Ariadne/Toccata From optimus at canit.se Thu May 24 07:04:13 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: Need help In-Reply-To: <200105240943.LAA29594@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <489.544T650T7844711optimus@canit.se> jkunz skrev: >p.s. I think it is hard to say "XYZ was the first computer". In that >time many "first computers" where build by independent people. I agree, but what about the Baby machine at Manhcester? ISTR from reading "Computer" that something was missing from either ENIAC or EDSAC in order to make it a "real" digital computer. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Alle meine Noten bringen mich nicht aus den N?ten, und ich schreibe noten ?berhaupt nur aus N?ten. --- Ludwig van Beethoven From optimus at canit.se Thu May 24 07:06:22 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: Ha Ha Virus is back In-Reply-To: <3B0C9B11.1F2968DE@kcinter.net> Message-ID: <437.544T1100T7864953optimus@canit.se> bill claussen skrev: >I just received this evening and it was sent at 7:56pm the Ha Ha Virus >is back! I received it from the list this is the heading: I receive it every bloody day, and I don't even have a Windows PC to run it on. Glad to see that I've got brothers of misery. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. G? med i SUGA, Swedish Usergroup of Amiga! WWW: http://swedish.usergroup.amiga.tm/ BBS: 08-6582572, telnet://sua.ath.cx:42512 From optimus at canit.se Thu May 24 18:16:34 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: UK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1006.545T1700T165781optimus@canit.se> Alan Pearson skrev: >> Besides, the UK doesn't seem all that well off according >> to what I've read. >Can't comment on the electrical aspects of this, but >you're bang-on if you mean we're not very well off >when it comes to finding classic computers :-) Oh, go to hell, you don't fool me. I've read all about your schools laying off their Acorns. Anything must be better than this as far as computers are concerned. Well, anything but Slovenia. =) >You folk in the US seem to be finding cool stuff every >day, I'm lucky if I have more than a couple of worthwhile >finds a year :-) At least the yanks have got a well-stocked eBay. BTW, might I recommend this URL: http://website.lineone.net/~dustbin2000/ -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "Auf Sparc-Maschinen ist Linux weit weniger gut. Auf Maschinen mit sun4 Architektur ist NetBSD etwa 30% schneller. Wer auf so einer Maschine Linux faehrt tut es aus ideologischen Gruenden oder kennt nichts anderes." Aus: de.comp.os.unix.misc, "Was ist schneller?" From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu May 24 17:23:08 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: Tog and the interface (was: ID computer) In-Reply-To: <20010524122027.B1578@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010524182141.00a72ec0@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 12:20 PM 5/24/01 -0700, you wrote: >On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 07:07:31AM -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > wish I can remember fine details (I can only remember one in particular, > > where a person was able to create a mathematical formula the way it would > > be written on paper, with a real square root symbol, a division with the > > dividend over the divisor separated by a horizontal line, etc. and all > > this in the middle of a text document) but it's been a while. > >MathCAD does that but it only runs on Windows. Wrong. There is (was) a DOS version. I have both versions. Let me know if you want copy of the DOS version. Joe From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1649.monmouth.com Thu May 24 17:56:52 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1649.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: Wanted: iAPX-432 In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "May 24, 2001 09:26:31 pm" Message-ID: <200105242256.f4OMuqk21544@bg-tc-ppp1649.monmouth.com> > [i860] > > > You also find them in a most X-terminals. In fact, I think > > > every X-terminal that I have checked used them. > > > > Interesting-- so far, all of the Xterms I've seen use either MIPS > > or Motorola chips. I have seen them in alot of telecom and > > cellular equipment, though . . . > > An Xtermianl I have here uses a TI 34010 as the main processor. Yes, a > graphics processor chip. The Xserver (a very old version, may even be > X10...) is in a row of EPROMs on a daughterboard that plugs into video board. > > There's also an 80188, but that's just used for I/O as far as I can see. > > -tony IBM used something similar in their low end Xterminals. I think they upgraded to faster CPU's in the higher end 150 models. The 110 (iirc) and 130(iirc) were pretty slow. I've got a Dec VT1200 here and it seems pretty good for a mono Xterminal. Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From ecloud at bigfoot.com Thu May 24 18:13:45 2001 From: ecloud at bigfoot.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: Tog and the interface (was: ID computer) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010524182141.00a72ec0@mailhost.intellistar.net>; from rigdonj@intellistar.net on Thu, May 24, 2001 at 06:23:08PM -0400 References: <20010524122027.B1578@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> <5.1.0.14.1.20010524182141.00a72ec0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <20010524161345.F1578@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 06:23:08PM -0400, joe wrote: > At 12:20 PM 5/24/01 -0700, you wrote: > >MathCAD does that but it only runs on Windows. > > Wrong. There is (was) a DOS version. Which I mentioned in the same email... I meant that current versions run only on Windows. They should have Mac and Linux versions by now but they don't. -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ From ssietz at iname.com Thu May 24 18:24:44 2001 From: ssietz at iname.com (Steven Sietz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow Saved Message-ID: <3B0D983C.BB5154C9@iname.com> If anyone is looking for an old DEC Rainbow 100 (CPU, monitor, keyboard, modem) with software and documentation, please contact me at: ssietz@iname.com From peter at joules.org Thu May 24 18:42:11 2001 From: peter at joules.org (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: UK In-Reply-To: <1006.545T1700T165781optimus@canit.se> References: <1006.545T1700T165781optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <01052500495503.24482@pluto.joules.org> On Fri, 25 May 2001, you wrote: > Alan Pearson skrev: > > >> Besides, the UK doesn't seem all that well off according > >> to what I've read. > > >Can't comment on the electrical aspects of this, but > >you're bang-on if you mean we're not very well off > >when it comes to finding classic computers :-) > > Oh, go to hell, you don't fool me. I've read all about your schools laying off > their Acorns. The prblem with school equipment is the disposals policy. As they are bought with public money the requirements for disposal are very strict. In my area the policy is: 1) Offer to other departments 2) Offer to other schools 3) Offer to other local authority departments 4) Offer to charitable institutions 5) Offer to staff Trying to raise money at, and documenting, each stage. as a result they susally go straight to: 6) chuck them in the skip. This avoids all of the administrative costs involved in the procedure. It is generally considered more than anyone's job is worth to by pass the procedure and let someone else have them :( -- Regards Pete From rdd at smart.net Thu May 24 18:48:56 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: Need help In-Reply-To: <489.544T650T7844711optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 24 May 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > >p.s. I think it is hard to say "XYZ was the first computer". In that > >time many "first computers" where build by independent people. Ah, but you're missing the obvious: take a good look at your fingers on your keyboard, and you just may be looking at something very similar to the first computing device... now, if you've got your shoes and socks off, take a look at the end of your feet opposite your heels, and you may be looking at something very similar to the first expansion chasis, which doubled the computer's word size. :-) -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu May 24 18:53:03 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: Wanted: iAPX-432 Message-ID: <002201c0e4ac$afcefe20$a9779a8d@ajp166> Now whats going on with the list... I'm getting everything twice! Allison -----Original Message----- From: Bill Pechter To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, May 24, 2001 7:38 PM Subject: Re: Wanted: iAPX-432 >> [i860] >> > > You also find them in a most X-terminals. In fact, I think >> > > every X-terminal that I have checked used them. >> > >> > Interesting-- so far, all of the Xterms I've seen use either MIPS >> > or Motorola chips. I have seen them in alot of telecom and >> > cellular equipment, though . . . >> >> An Xtermianl I have here uses a TI 34010 as the main processor. Yes, a >> graphics processor chip. The Xserver (a very old version, may even be >> X10...) is in a row of EPROMs on a daughterboard that plugs into video board. >> >> There's also an 80188, but that's just used for I/O as far as I can see. >> >> -tony > >IBM used something similar in their low end Xterminals. >I think they upgraded to faster CPU's in the higher end 150 models. >The 110 (iirc) and 130(iirc) were pretty slow. > >I've got a Dec VT1200 here and it seems pretty good for a mono >Xterminal. > >Bill >--- > Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a > villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller > bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Thu May 24 18:29:44 2001 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: VAX bar References: Message-ID: <003a01c0e4a9$a826e0a0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. D. Davis" To: Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 5:40 AM Subject: Re: VAX bar > Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall there being people on > this list who do use such systems at home. 8600 series Vaxen used ECL and were good substitutes for a central heating system, requiring some serious environmental control. I'm not sure of the power requirements, but they were quite high, even for the era, a Vax 6000 is a PC in comparison. Cheers Geoff in Oz From vaxman at qwest.net Thu May 24 18:52:42 2001 From: vaxman at qwest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: Need help In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010523200217.03126be0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: ROLF!!! Can I borrow a PDP-1???? I wanna get in on this deal!!! On Wed, 23 May 2001, Chuck McManis wrote: > Deer Sir; > > I have just been given three ENIAC machines to display in a museum but they > are currently in Nigeria where they were used for nuclear weapons testing. > I can get them and preserve them for the National Museum of Science but I > need your help. They won't believe I am a serious collector unless I can > show them that I own a working PDP-1. I need you to box up and ship me a > working PDP-1 so that I can set it up and show it to them. Then they will > send me the three ENIACs by first class air mail. I will keep one, send one > to the museum and you can keep one. You will agree that an ENIAC, the first > digital computer, is much more valuable than a PDP-1 so you will understand > that I must keep the PDP-1 just in case they do a "surprise" inspection. > Thank you for your help, it is a good cause. > > Sincerely, > Prof. Peabody. > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > :-) > > > From at258 at osfn.org Thu May 24 19:01:17 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: ADM = ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You don't like their classic, rounded lines, Will? Remember, the ADM3 was one of the standard terminals of the period. That's probably why they're so popular. Our 1976 MAI 1200 uses an ADM3 in MAI blue paint. On Thu, 24 May 2001, Will Jennings wrote: > No, I was meaning why do they go for so much now.. They're certainly not > rare or for that matter, reliable. Not to mention that I find them ugly, > ugly, ugly! But that last part was opinion.. Still, if you need a terminal > today, get like a wyse-55 or something. > > Will J > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From rcini at optonline.net Thu May 24 20:22:06 2001 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: 88RTC Docs Message-ID: Hello, all: I am looking for docs on the MITS 88RTC real-time clock board so that I can add support for it in the Altair32 emulator. If anyone has a copy they can scan for me, I'd appreciate it. Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From foo at siconic.com Thu May 24 20:16:33 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: Tog and the interface (was: ID computer) In-Reply-To: <20010524122027.B1578@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 May 2001, Shawn T. Rutledge wrote: > On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 07:07:31AM -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > wish I can remember fine details (I can only remember one in particular, > > where a person was able to create a mathematical formula the way it would > > be written on paper, with a real square root symbol, a division with the > > dividend over the divisor separated by a horizontal line, etc. and all > > this in the middle of a text document) but it's been a while. > > MathCAD does that but it only runs on Windows. Some day I'd like to This was built into the OS on the Star ;) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Thu May 24 20:18:29 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: ADM = ? In-Reply-To: <15117.25251.335069.492791@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 May 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 24, Will Jennings wrote: > > No, I was meaning why do they go for so much now.. They're certainly not > > rare or for that matter, reliable. Not to mention that I find them ugly, > > ugly, ugly! But that last part was opinion.. Still, if you need a terminal > > today, get like a wyse-55 or something. > > Not rare? They're pretty rare from where I'm sitting. Not to be > argumentative, but I've seen ONE (an ADM-5, now in my basement) in all > my travels in about the past ten years. I would call them not too common (around these parts at least). I've only come across maybe 4 or 5 in my travels. One was given away at VCF 2.0 (as part of an IMSAI system), one sits in my collection (I may have two...don't know for sure). Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Thu May 24 20:24:05 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: ADM = ? In-Reply-To: <15117.31746.365254.937445@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 May 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 24, Will Jennings wrote: > > Now give me a Hazeltine 1500, and I'm interested : ) > > I've been looking for one of those for a while. I used one on my > imsai box years ago; I'd like to have one around for posterity. It's certainly a very hard to find terminal. I've only ever come across one, which is sitting in my collection :) I actually may know where another is, but I might be mistaking it for a different model number. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From bkr at WildHareComputers.com Thu May 24 21:43:13 2001 From: bkr at WildHareComputers.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: 'cross computer movers referrals References: <3B05AE45.A0EE7C28@home.com> Message-ID: <029a01c0e4c4$71ee27d0$0100a8c0@dellhare> --Doug I'm referring to the standard 19" DG or DEC 6' tall racks; we called them RETMA cabinets in the 60s... wrong nomenclature? Bruce ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Coward" To: Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 5:20 PM Subject: Re: 'cross computer movers referrals > "Bruce Ray" said > > moving companies moving RETMA-racked equipment. > > Are these really pre-1957 racks or is that a > phrase of habit? > > Regards, > --Doug > ========================================= > Doug Coward > @ home in Poulsbo, WA > > Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center > http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog > ========================================= From bkr at WildHareComputers.com Thu May 24 21:46:29 2001 From: bkr at WildHareComputers.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: ADM = ? References: Message-ID: <02a001c0e4c4$e71415b0$0100a8c0@dellhare> Does anybody else remember the ADM-3 kits that were sold by LSI? You received the main PCB unpopulated and a baggie of parts plus instruction manual - solder your system together and saved about $200 off of the regular price. Bruce bkr@SimuLogics.com Novas are forever... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 7:18 PM Subject: Re: ADM = ? > On Thu, 24 May 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > On May 24, Will Jennings wrote: > > > No, I was meaning why do they go for so much now.. They're certainly not > > > rare or for that matter, reliable. Not to mention that I find them ugly, > > > ugly, ugly! But that last part was opinion.. Still, if you need a terminal > > > today, get like a wyse-55 or something. > > > > Not rare? They're pretty rare from where I'm sitting. Not to be > > argumentative, but I've seen ONE (an ADM-5, now in my basement) in all > > my travels in about the past ten years. > > I would call them not too common (around these parts at least). I've only > come across maybe 4 or 5 in my travels. One was given away at VCF 2.0 (as > part of an IMSAI system), one sits in my collection (I may have > two...don't know for sure). > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Thu May 24 21:02:19 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: ADM = ? In-Reply-To: <15117.34036.255163.155095@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 May 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 24, Eric Dittman wrote: > > I see ADM3A terminals all the time, in computer stores. > > They are funny colored now, and have a detached keyboard, > > and don't work the same. For some reason they are called > > iMacs now. > > *snicker* > > I almost bought an iMac when they came out just so I could put it on a > desk next to my ADM-5. :) You guys know the rumor behind the design of the iMac, right? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Thu May 24 21:03:05 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: Need help In-Reply-To: <489.544T650T7844711optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 24 May 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > I agree, but what about the Baby machine at Manhcester? ISTR from > reading "Computer" that something was missing from either ENIAC or > EDSAC in order to make it a "real" digital computer. I believe it was the sharing of code space with data. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 24 22:14:18 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:45 2005 Subject: ADM = ? In-Reply-To: Re: ADM = ? (Sellam Ismail) References: <15117.34036.255163.155095@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <15117.52746.194669.244023@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 24, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > I almost bought an iMac when they came out just so I could put it on a > > desk next to my ADM-5. :) > > You guys know the rumor behind the design of the iMac, right? Eh? -Dave McGuire From ken at seefried.com Thu May 24 22:29:21 2001 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: i432, i860, i960 (was: Re: Wanted: iAPX-432) In-Reply-To: <200105242346.SAA70776@opal.tseinc.com> References: <200105242346.SAA70776@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <20010525032921.11410.qmail@mail.seefried.com> So much silliness... 1) The iAPX-432 was released, and I've seen them in the wild. Why they don't own the computing world has been hashed to death but more articulate folks than I. They even show up from time to time on (horror, much gnashing of teeth, devil incarnate) eBay. You, of course, blaspheme against the Classiccmp gods if you ever look for one there, so we shouldn't even mention it... 2) The i860 was a fascinating little chip, but in a train wreck sort of way. In other words "it is horrible, and yet I cannot look away". The compiler was miserable, the doco insufficient, but if you had a wonk that really understood the beast, and had a single algorithm that you wanted to implement, you could achieve magic. Many graphics processors worked this magic. 3) The i960 was originally worked up for a next generation Intel mainstream processor. It's definition included MMUs, etc., and it ended up in one of Intels' supercomputers. Never quite worked out that way they hoped, though, so the MMUs got deleted and the i960 found new life as an embedded processor. There are a vast number of i960s out there in printers, network card, RAID controllers, etc. 4) XTerminals. Nice toys. Contrary to one posters opinion, there was an Xterm built around *everyones* processor, not just i960. I know of XTerminals based on VAX, 34010/34020, 680[0234]0, MIPS, 88000, i960, i860 & i80[2345]86. They aren't exactly rocket science. Ken From billj at ieee.org Thu May 24 22:45:20 2001 From: billj at ieee.org (Bill Janssen) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: ADM = ? References: <20010524.152123.-16574517.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <3B0DD550.E0F354DB@ieee.org> Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > > I used them myself for the two years I went to college (the > school had a PDP-11/70 I think). As for speed, have you > ever looked inside one of these things? > > Late one nite, I had nothing better to do than poke around > stuff in the computer lab; indide I found one *big* board, > covered with what I think was TTL. No uP, all random logic, > *no* processing overhead. > Yes and I bought mine(ADM 3A) (new) as a kit. I got that big boards and a box of chips that had to be hand soldered on to the board. The CRT and it's board were pre assembled. It finaly gave me trouble and I junked it. Bill K7NOM > Talk about 'real time' . . . .. > > On Thu, 24 May 2001 13:37:20 -0500 Tom Uban > writes: > > At the time, they were fairly cheap in comparison to other "more > > intelligent" > > terminals, and they were one of the few which could keep up at a > > full serial > > line rate without handshaking. I worked at Purdue University's > > Engineering > > Computer Network back in the early 80's and we used then for that > > reason. Most > > ran at either 9600 or 19200, but we modified a few to run at 38400 > > and they > > could keep up with that speed as well... > > > > --tom > > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From pdp11 at bellsouth.net Thu May 24 23:49:08 2001 From: pdp11 at bellsouth.net (Doug Carman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: VAX bar References: Message-ID: <3B0DE444.58856DAA@bellsouth.net> "R. D. Davis" wrote: > > On Thu, 24 May 2001, Doug Carman wrote: > > all left standing in the rain before the local scrap dealer hauled them > > away. I was able to salvage some parts from the 8650 before we got rid > > of it, but it would have been impossible to have ever run the system > > outside a data center environment. The size, weight, massive cooling > > requirements and the 3 phase, 60 amp power circuit would prevent such a > > system from being a practical hobbyist computer. It's a shame to see > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall there being people on > this list who do use such systems at home. > That would be doubtful, but not totally impossible. It would be interesting to hear from anyone who has one of the large VAX-11 computers for a hobby system. Other VAX systems might be more suitable for home use, but the 11/780 through 8650 were massive power hogs. I still have the power plug and receptacle from one of our 8650's. People are always amazed that it was used to power a single computer. A 60 amp 3 phase circuit is out of the range of any type of residential electric service. However, I do run a PDP-11/70 at home. The PDP-11 systems are more easily adapted to residential power because most of the system components use 120V single phase power. Even though it can be done, it still draws quite a bit of power and generates a great deal of heat. -- Doug Carman pdp11@bellsouth.net From elf at ucsd.edu Thu May 24 23:56:47 2001 From: elf at ucsd.edu (Eric) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: ADM = ? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010524215647.00798880@popmail.ucsd.edu> A search of terms (from archived material of comp.terminals & alt.folklore.computers, et al.) reveals nothing definitive: Archer Daniels Midland American Dream Machine Advanced Display Module A Display Monitor Advanced Data Manager Awful Dumb Monitor Absurdly Dense Minicomputer A Devil in Masquerade ...any former LSI employees out there to help solve this mystery? I've always felt this statement, printed in the ADM-3a manual, has only added to the "classic" factor of these baby-blue CRTs: Note: Lear Siegler does not service ADM-3A kits. If service or technical assistance is needed, your local Dumb Terminal Dealer should be contacted. :) Eric Will Jennings had previously stated: > I still prefer what my dad calls it: A Dumb Machine. I don't see why people > pay so much for those things, they're not even very good terminals. From foo at siconic.com Thu May 24 23:30:57 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: ADM = ? In-Reply-To: <15117.52746.194669.244023@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 May 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 24, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > I almost bought an iMac when they came out just so I could put it on a > > > desk next to my ADM-5. :) > > > > You guys know the rumor behind the design of the iMac, right? > > Eh? The iMac enclosure styling was modeled after the ADM-3A, which is why it looks so much like it. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu May 24 23:52:49 2001 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: ADM = ? In-Reply-To: <02a001c0e4c4$e71415b0$0100a8c0@dellhare> References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010524215143.02582b80@agora.rdrop.com> At 08:46 PM 5/24/01 -0600, Bruce wrote: >Does anybody else remember the ADM-3 kits that were sold by LSI? You >received the main PCB unpopulated and a baggie of parts plus instruction >manual - solder your system together and saved about $200 off of the regular >price. Remember??? I lost track of how many of those kits I built back in the 'Byte Shop' days for people who did not want to wait for assembled units. -jim jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 The 'computergarage.org' domain is currently offline. Current web site and email shown above From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 25 00:53:08 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: VAX bar In-Reply-To: <3B0DE444.58856DAA@bellsouth.net> References: Message-ID: >That would be doubtful, but not totally impossible. It would be >interesting to hear from anyone who has one of the large VAX-11 >computers for a hobby system. Other VAX systems might be more suitable >for home use, but the 11/780 through 8650 were massive power hogs. I >still have the power plug and receptacle from one of our 8650's. People >are always amazed that it was used to power a single computer. A 60 amp >3 phase circuit is out of the range of any type of residential electric >service. Well, considering that I know someone a few miles away with an 11/780 at home..... Given the chance and the room I'd get an 11/780 without a second thought. Granted I wouldn't run it much, but I'd love to have one that I could run, and if needed I'd put in the necessary circuit. Unfortuantly I don't have the room right now. When my wife and I start looking for a house, one of the main things we're going to be looking for is one where I can have a large computer room. What really bummed me 2-3 years ago was having to pass on a VAX-11/750 system that a guy locally had running in his garage because I didn't have a place to put it. Oh, and I've a decent sized PDP-11/44 spread out between my Parents garage, and one of my storage units. Though I did have to give the TU-81+ for it away a few months ago do to lack of room. BTW, one of my neighbors is trying to get a VAX 6000 running in his second floor apartment! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From oliv555 at arrl.net Fri May 25 00:58:50 2001 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (no) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: ID this board: M7165 References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010523200217.03126be0@208.226.86.10> <000b01c0e477$13a07d60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <000901c0e47d$22765840$174099a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> Message-ID: <3B0DF49A.F7C5550D@arrl.net> Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > > > Nice card ejectors though -- I need a set for a recently purchased S-box > KDJ11-SD. > > -- > Jonathan Engdahl Rockwell Automation > Principal Research Engineer 24800 Tungsten Road > Advanced Technology Euclid, OH 44117 USA > Euclid Labs engdahl@cle.ab.com 216-266-6409 > If you can't come up with a set I can pull a pair off of a stack of DOA boards at work that are about to be trashed. ...... nick oliviero From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri May 25 01:41:43 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: Need help In-Reply-To: <489.544T650T7844711optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <200105250641.IAA03342@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 24 May, Iggy Drougge wrote: > I agree, but what about the Baby machine at Manhcester? Baby machine? Do you mean the machines of Charles Babbage? As I know these machines were not programmable. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From wmsmith at earthlink.net Fri May 25 02:33:33 2001 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: Osborne Executive References: <3.0.1.32.20010523183411.0158a4d0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <01b301c0e4ed$01a13ca0$5a26b3d1@Smith.earthlink.net> Chris: You have all the manuals. The other "original" binder that came with the unit is entitled "Approved Software" and contains 14 disks for: CP/M Plus (3 disks), Wordstar/Mailmerge (2 disks), Supercalc (1 disk), MBASIC/CBASIC (1 disk), Personal Pearl (6 disks) and UCSD p-System (1 disk). Hope this helps. Wayne Smith > > > >I just bought an Osborne Executive in great shape. I always wanted one! It > >came with these manuals: > > > >- Volume 0 - Beginners Guide > >- Volume 1 - Mastering the Osborne Executive > >- Volume 2 - Working with text and Spreadsheets > >- Volume 3 - Managing information with Personal Pearl > >- Volume 4 - Operating System > >- Reference Guide Binder with tabs for WordStar, SuperCalc, CP/M Plus, CBASIC > >and MS BASIC. > > > >Does anyone here on the Model 100 listserv know if these ALL the manuals that > >came with a new Osborne Executive? > > > >Also, unfortunately, it came with 4 non-original, non-labeled disks. It > is not > >clear to me what is on the 4 disks or the logic of them since I'm new to > CP/M. > >I know that WordStar and some CP/M Plus are on those disks. But I don't > believe > >I have SuperCalc, CBASIC, MS BASIC or Personal Pearl. I'm not even sure I > have > >the full WordStar and CP/M Plus. > > > >So I'm looking to get an exact copy of the original disk set that came > with the > >Osborne Executive. Also, I though it would be cool to get a picture of the > >disks' labels so I can re-create them. > > > >Can you help? Is there a file list by disk somewhere? > > > >I'm assuming the bundled software included: > > > >- CP/M Plus > >- WordStar > >- SuperCalc > >- Personal Pearl > >- CBASIC > >- MS BASIC > > > >Thanks a bunch. > > > >Chris > >Chris_Feeney@hillenbrand.com > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers > Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. > > If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead > disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From Alan.Pearson at cramersystems.com Fri May 25 04:10:26 2001 From: Alan.Pearson at cramersystems.com (Alan Pearson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: Xerox Star Message-ID: > I was convinced after seeing the "Last Star Demo" a few years back (1998?) > that the Star interface was still years ahead of both Apple and MS. Wish I'd seen that. Yeah, ViewPoint/Star/GlobalView (whatever you want to call it) is still a long way ahead of what we've ended up with. I usually use GVWin on the laptop for docs etc, they only get converted to Word format if they have to be sent outside :-) Admittedly it's only become usable since the hardware has been fast enough to support it - a 15 minute boot time for VP on a 6085 is next to useless, but it boots in 20 seconds or so on a 400MHz laptop. I wish I could get hold of XDE (Tajo), that would sit very nicely in another volume of my GVWin virtual disk... Al. From Alan.Pearson at cramersystems.com Fri May 25 04:20:50 2001 From: Alan.Pearson at cramersystems.com (Alan Pearson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: No subject Message-ID: > OTOH, usability folks would probably say that the functions of the > function keys should always be the same anyway. For most apps > that's probably true. Yeah, just ask the RAF's fighter controllers... From Alan.Pearson at cramersystems.com Fri May 25 04:29:22 2001 From: Alan.Pearson at cramersystems.com (Alan Pearson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: The MESA processor architecture Message-ID: > One of the Alto instruction sets was an extended Nova. The MESA machine > is more like an HP3000 than a Nova. It is defined in the MESA "Princeops" > manual. Alan Freier had this on line at one point, not sure if anyone > saved a copy. I've been after a copy of this manual for *ages*, does anyone have a copy? Does anyone know what happened to the Wildflower site? I've tried mailing Alan Freier a couple of times but not had a reply. al From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Fri May 25 05:56:26 2001 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: Need help In-Reply-To: <200105250641.IAA03342@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Fri, 25 May 2001 08:41:43 +0200 (CEST) jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > On 24 May, Iggy Drougge wrote: > > I agree, but what about the Baby machine at Manhcester? > Baby machine? Do you mean the machines of Charles Babbage? No, the "Baby" was built in 1948 at Manchester University to test their Williams memory. It was a 32-bit serial machine with about six instructions. It was the first fully electronic, stored-program machine. As far as I'm concerned, if it ran the first stored program, then it's the first computer! Machines like Eniac weren't stored-program and we'd call them "calculators" nowadays. If anyone's interested, there's a couple of good books on this era by Simon Lavington. One's about early British computers, while the other covers just the Manchester machines. I also have a simulator for the "Baby", written in C, somewhere. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri May 25 07:19:50 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: UK In-Reply-To: <01052500495503.24482@pluto.joules.org> References: <1006.545T1700T165781optimus@canit.se> <1006.545T1700T165781optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010525081807.00a66cf0@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 12:42 AM 5/25/01 +0100, Pete wrote: >On Fri, 25 May 2001, you wrote: > > Alan Pearson skrev: > > > > >> Besides, the UK doesn't seem all that well off according > > >> to what I've read. > > > > >Can't comment on the electrical aspects of this, but > > >you're bang-on if you mean we're not very well off > > >when it comes to finding classic computers :-) > > > > Oh, go to hell, you don't fool me. I've read all about your schools > laying off > > their Acorns. > >The prblem with school equipment is the disposals policy. As they are bought >with public money the requirements for disposal are very strict. In my area >the policy is: > >1) Offer to other departments >2) Offer to other schools >3) Offer to other local authority departments >4) Offer to charitable institutions >5) Offer to staff The policy in the US is the same except there's no **requirement** to offer the stuff to the staff. Although mandy places do. >Trying to raise money at, and documenting, each stage. as a result they >susally >go straight to: > >6) chuck them in the skip. > >This avoids all of the administrative costs involved in the procedure. It is >generally considered more than anyone's job is worth to by pass the procedure >and let someone else have them :( Same here unfortunately. Joe >-- >Regards >Pete From mtapley at swri.edu Thu May 24 21:44:14 2001 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist still lives Message-ID: All, Got my OpenVMS hobbyist media kit (= one CD) today in the mail. Still don't have any good idea what my id number (sic?) is or whether I have one - have never gotten any email at all related to OpenVMS from Montagar or Compaq. Guess I'll call next week to try to find out. Anyway, a positive data point for anyone still waiting for one. - Mark From optimus at canit.se Fri May 25 07:52:42 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: Need help In-Reply-To: <200105250641.IAA03342@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <521.545T2100T8325265optimus@canit.se> jkunz skrev: >On 24 May, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> I agree, but what about the Baby machine at Manhcester? >Baby machine? Do you mean the machines of Charles Babbage? As I know >these machines were not programmable. No, it was a very small (compared to its contemporaries) machine, built at (I think) the university of Manchester in the forties or early fifties. ISTR that it used mercury memory. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Fernsehen ist das einzige Schlafmittel, das mit den Augen genommen wird. --- Vittorio de Sica From bill at cs.scranton.edu Fri May 25 08:46:34 2001 From: bill at cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: ID this board: M7165 In-Reply-To: <15117.24237.804995.946658@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 May 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > It's useless without the other board, and they're both useless if > you don't want to run RA-series disks. Contrary to popular belief, > not all RA-series disks are huge (14" platters) and power hungry. I > have a stack of 1GB 5.25" RA73 disks that are rather nice. > True, but another thing to remember is that the KDA-50 itself is a power hog. It will not work just stuffed into an existing BA23 (or even a BA123, I think). The only one I have running is in a sepparate box with it's own power supply. And yes, I tried putting one in a MVAX-II in a BA23 before I knew this and while it did no permanent damage, it definitely didn't work and kept the box from even starting. Boy could I use some of those disks, though. I have RA80's, RA81's and Fuji Eagles. I run them on both of my Ultrix machines, a VAX and a PDP-11. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Fri May 25 08:56:23 2001 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: Need help In-Reply-To: <521.545T2100T8325265optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 25 May 2001 13:52:42 +0100 Iggy Drougge wrote: > jkunz skrev: > >On 24 May, Iggy Drougge wrote: > >> I agree, but what about the Baby machine at Manhcester? > >Baby machine? Do you mean the machines of Charles Babbage? As I know > >these machines were not programmable. > > No, it was a very small (compared to its contemporaries) machine, built at (I > think) the university of Manchester in the forties or early fifties. ISTR that > it used mercury memory. No, the National Physical Laboratory's machine, the Pilot ACE, used mercury delay lines, as did Cambridge Uni's EDSAC. But the Manchester machines used CRT (Cathode-Ray Tube) memory, also generically known as electrostatic memory. The CRTs were standard World War II surplus units, and I think you can see one in the Science Museum's display nowadays. The memory was also the only output device in the "Baby", since the CRTs had normal phosphor coating and the bits glowed. Programs would halt, and the results would be read from the CRT face. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri May 25 09:02:39 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: UK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3B0E821F.18590.244466F2@localhost> > > Besides, the UK doesn't seem all that well off according > > to what I've read. > Can't comment on the electrical aspects of this, but > you're bang-on if you mean we're not very well off > when it comes to finding classic computers :-) > You folk in the US seem to be finding cool stuff every > day, I'm lucky if I have more than a couple of worthwhile > finds a year :-) And what's about all that cool brit stuff ? Come on, I wand an Amstrad PDA, and a Sinclair MK 14, and of course all the other sinclairs, and the BBCs and yea, I'm still missing any NASCOM 1 or 2 ... ther is so much great GB computers to get ... isn't it ? Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri May 25 09:15:09 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: Need help In-Reply-To: References: <489.544T650T7844711optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3B0E850D.1943.244FD9F9@localhost> > > I agree, but what about the Baby machine at Manhcester? ISTR from > > reading "Computer" that something was missing from either ENIAC or > > EDSAC in order to make it a "real" digital computer. > I believe it was the sharing of code space with data. So any 802/4/5x based thing is not a computer ??? Come on. You are just talking Harward vs. von Neumann. H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From dittman at dittman.net Fri May 25 09:17:52 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist still lives In-Reply-To: from "Mark Tapley" at May 24, 2001 09:44:14 PM Message-ID: <200105251417.f4PEHq611839@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Got my OpenVMS hobbyist media kit (= one CD) today in the mail. > Still don't have any good idea what my id number (sic?) is or whether I > have one - have never gotten any email at all related to OpenVMS from > Montagar or Compaq. Guess I'll call next week to try to find out. Anyway, a > positive data point for anyone still waiting for one. The ID number comes from Encompass (was DECUS). -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From jim at calico.litterbox.com Fri May 25 09:16:13 2001 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist still lives In-Reply-To: from "Mark Tapley" at May 24, 2001 09:44:14 PM Message-ID: <200105251416.IAA23461@calico.litterbox.com> Your ID number would be on your DECUS or whatever they're calling it now card. You have to be a member of Decus (free) to get the licences. > > All, > Got my OpenVMS hobbyist media kit (= one CD) today in the mail. > Still don't have any good idea what my id number (sic?) is or whether I > have one - have never gotten any email at all related to OpenVMS from > Montagar or Compaq. Guess I'll call next week to try to find out. Anyway, a > positive data point for anyone still waiting for one. > - Mark > > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From at258 at osfn.org Fri May 25 09:51:20 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: ADM = ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 24 May 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 24 May 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > On May 24, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > > I almost bought an iMac when they came out just so I could put it on a > > > > desk next to my ADM-5. :) > > > > > > You guys know the rumor behind the design of the iMac, right? > > > > Eh? > > The iMac enclosure styling was modeled after the ADM-3A, which is why it > looks so much like it. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > It has always reminded me more of a severed head. M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri May 25 10:12:19 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist still lives Message-ID: <01May25.112430edt.119059@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >Your ID number would be on your DECUS or whatever they're calling it >now card. You have to be a member of Decus (free) to get the licences. I filled out the online form to renew my membership but haven't heard anything back. It's been said that they are going through a few changes so I figured I'd give them a little while. Jeff From aek at spies.com Fri May 25 10:12:08 2001 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: Mesa PrincOps Manual Message-ID: <200105251512.IAA05267@spies.com> > I've been after a copy of this manual for *ages*, does anyone have a copy? since wildflower is down right now, I've put a copy here http://www.spies.com/~aek/MesaPrincOps/00xPrincOps.html > Does anyone know what happened to the Wildflower site? I don't think the hardware survived one or more of Alan's office moves. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 25 10:16:20 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: ID this board: M7165 In-Reply-To: Re: ID this board: M7165 (Bill Gunshannon) References: <15117.24237.804995.946658@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <15118.30532.185912.834531@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 25, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > > It's useless without the other board, and they're both useless if > > you don't want to run RA-series disks. Contrary to popular belief, > > not all RA-series disks are huge (14" platters) and power hungry. I > > have a stack of 1GB 5.25" RA73 disks that are rather nice. > > > > True, but another thing to remember is that the KDA-50 itself is a > power hog. It will not work just stuffed into an existing BA23 (or > even a BA123, I think). The only one I have running is in a sepparate > box with it's own power supply. And yes, I tried putting one in a > MVAX-II in a BA23 before I knew this and while it did no permanent > damage, it definitely didn't work and kept the box from even starting. Hmm...weird. I've run two or three of them in BA23s with the rest of their systems. Guess I was lucky. > Boy could I use some of those disks, though. I have RA80's, RA81's > and Fuji Eagles. I run them on both of my Ultrix machines, a VAX and > a PDP-11. Deals can be made... :) -Dave McGuire From truthanl at oclc.org Fri May 25 10:27:34 2001 From: truthanl at oclc.org (Truthan,Larry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: ADM= ? Message-ID: <5D2A5FE013C66B44901B5A45A5304DDA0172D35A@oa2-server.oa.oclc.org> Async Display Monitor? Just a Guess The ADM-2 Service Manual I have decribes "ADM ready" lines #6 & #8 on the serial printer interface option. Sept 25 1974. 1920 8-bit words stored ADM - 2 Interactive Display Terminal. Lear Siegler Inc. 714 N. Brookhurst St Anahiem, CA 92803 Larry Truthan truthanl@oclc.org Digest Subscriber. From rcini at optonline.net Fri May 25 10:37:41 2001 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: ANN: SYM Manuals posted Message-ID: Hello, all: Someone from Italy has been scanning the manual set for the SYM-1 board. I've posted the PDFs to my Web site. Enjoy. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 25 11:05:06 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist still lives In-Reply-To: <01May25.112430edt.119059@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: >>Your ID number would be on your DECUS or whatever they're calling it >>now card. You have to be a member of Decus (free) to get the licences. > > I filled out the online form to renew my membership but haven't heard >anything back. It's been said that they are going through a few changes so >I figured I'd give them a little while. Same here, plus I've been using my ID which expired well over a year ago to get licenses (just tried renewing a couple months ago). Now if they'd update the Hobbyist Media kits! I just got done buying OpenVMS V7.2-1H1 and getting a March 2001 ConDist off of eBay so that I could move to the current software. In fact as I type I'm loading my PWS433au with V7.2-1H1 in preparation to have it become my primary VMS machine. BTW, any OpenVMS Hobbyists that haven't seen it yet, I'd really recommend looking at the stuff on the V5 Freeware CD. As far as I know the CD's aren't available yet. When I ordered the V7.2-1H1 update I also ordered the Freeware CD and got V4 (which is what I wanted). However, V5 is online at the OpenVMS website. From what I hear there is so much stuff on V5 that it only has new versions of stuff from V4 and it now takes 2 CD's. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rdd at smart.net Fri May 25 11:22:09 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: PERQs and software preservation (was: Xerox Star) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 25 May 2001, Alan Pearson wrote: > > I was convinced after seeing the "Last Star Demo" a few years back (1998?) > > that the Star interface was still years ahead of both Apple and MS. > > Wish I'd seen that. Yeah, ViewPoint/Star/GlobalView (whatever you want to > call it) is still a long way ahead of what we've ended up with. I usually In what way is it ahead of X11 combined with xterms? Graphical-only user interfaces are useful for those who don't do much wiht their computers, such as those with a few data dozen files here and there, who just access the 'net, use a word processor or spreadsheet now and then, etc. - such as the typical biz-'droid. However, anyone who has lots of data files, programs, scripts, etc. needs something more useful that allows more reasonable, e.g.quicker, access to their data. > use GVWin on the laptop for docs etc, they only get converted to Word format > if they have to be sent outside :-) Admittedly it's only become usable since Why Word format? Aren't you able to convert it to LaTeX format which you can then use something useful like Emacs with? Speaking of Emacs, did those Xerox systems ever support a useful text editor like Emacs, or a reasonably useful clone of Emacs? I remember that there was an Emacs like clone called Hemlock for the PERQs running Accent... of course, the PERQs themselves were great improvements over what I've seen of the Xerox systems - truly hackers systems were, and are, the PERQs. Alas, the PERQs, from what I can tell, were never much good at communicating with other systems that don't use their proprietary protocols. PERQ Kermit was/is a little slow and buggy - and it can't copy entire directory structures, and TCP/IP seems to never have been fully implemented... or it it was, no remaining copies appear to be available anywhere; add to that a lack of working utilities like a completed version of tar, and this makes preserving software for the PERQs extremely difficult, as getting the files archived and copied to live filesystems for safe-keeping is a daunting task that could take far more hours than most have available to expend on it. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From enrico.badella at softstar.it Fri May 25 11:26:33 2001 From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: Wanted: iAPX-432 References: <228C5EBB26701542946C14D5205AE6D5011B27C1@pnlmse08.pnl.gov> Message-ID: <3B0E87B9.EF5F08FC@softstar.it> "Anheier, Norman C Jr" wrote: > > I wanted to thank all that replied to my inquiry regarding Intel's > iAPX-432 processor. It seems the main consensus is that Intel never released > this product. If anyone has information to the contrary please speak up, > otherwise I'll drop this from my collection list. I don't agree because I've got some old tapes with the VMS ADA development environment. Also some time ago I made a copy of these tapes to a person in USA (Erik ????) that had, I think, an SDK missing only the processor. e. ======================================================================== Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 10143 Torino, Italy Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals ========================================================================== From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri May 25 12:08:41 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: Need help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200105251708.TAA04259@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 25 May, John Honniball wrote: > No, the National Physical Laboratory's machine, the Pilot > ACE, used mercury delay lines, as did Cambridge Uni's EDSAC. And the CSIRAC used mercury delay line memory too. http://www.cs.mu.oz.au/csirac/ -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri May 25 12:15:32 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: Microwave oven collectors? In-Reply-To: <200105250641.IAA03342@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <489.544T650T7844711optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: My 17 year old "microprocessor controlled" microwave oven stopped making food hot the other night. Everything still appears and sounds about the same, just food stays cold, and when it first happened there was a bit of the smell of the gates of capacitor heaven being open. Should I take a swing at fixing it, or yield to the cheap new inverter technology? Victim is a Panasonic Dimension 3 microwave/convection oven (top of the line those many moons ago). Location is SoCal. From jfoust at threedee.com Fri May 25 12:09:51 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: UK In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010525081807.00a66cf0@mailhost.intellistar.ne t> References: <01052500495503.24482@pluto.joules.org> <1006.545T1700T165781optimus@canit.se> <1006.545T1700T165781optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010525120900.01e3d340@pc> At 08:19 AM 5/25/01 -0400, joe wrote: >>The prblem with school equipment is the disposals policy. As they are bought >>with public money the requirements for disposal are very strict. In my area >>the policy is: >> >>1) Offer to other departments >>2) Offer to other schools >>3) Offer to other local authority departments >>4) Offer to charitable institutions >>5) Offer to staff > > The policy in the US is the same except there's no **requirement** to offer the stuff to the staff. Although mandy places do. And here, they're required to erase all software, and apparently any docs or disks also get chucked before the item is put up for surplus sale. - John From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri May 25 12:20:05 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: Need help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200105251720.TAA04285@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 25 May, John Honniball wrote: >> Baby machine? Do you mean the machines of Charles Babbage? > > No, the "Baby" was built in 1948 at Manchester University [...] Ahh. Good to know. > As far as I'm concerned, if it ran the first stored > program, then it's the first computer! Machines like Eniac > weren't stored-program and we'd call them "calculators" > nowadays. Yes and no. It just depends on your definition of "computer". The Z3 is often not called computer due to the lack of a branch instruction. But as I wrote before: There are so many remarkable inventors and projects in this area and that time, that I don't like to make a definite decision about the "winner". Everyone deserves (the same amount of) honor. > If anyone's interested, there's a couple of good books on > this era by Simon Lavington. I am afraid that these books are hard to get in Germany. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Fri May 25 12:29:21 2001 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: ADM style (and Lynwood and MICROSCRIBE) [was: ADM = ?] Message-ID: Hey, I *like* the TeleVideo 910 much more.. Better color choice, I think. Not to mention its a damn sight more reliable : ) But my favorite all-in-one terminal has to be the cute little TeleVideo that also has a phone built into it (at least that seems right). I'm still kicking myself for the clean-up we did when was 17 and not interested in old computers yet.. pitched 4 of em, and 2 of those Televideo PCs, and all kinds of god-knows-what else.. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Fri May 25 12:34:32 2001 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: Hazeltine Message-ID: Oops, I meant to say Hazeltine 2000, not 1500... Sorry! I have all the manuals for one, and that's what made it such a neat terminal to me, especially the cardcage of 20 or so boards... Gawd, I'd love to have one.. Will J _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Fri May 25 12:23:48 2001 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: What was the last ADM? Message-ID: Just out of curiosity, what was their last model? The latest that I know of was the ADM-11+, I had a dead one of those once. Will J _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From rhblake at bigfoot.com Fri May 25 12:43:37 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: Microwave oven collectors? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Generally the reason that it functions correctly but does not heat is that the poitn that 110v is sent to the 2K+ transformer to power the magnetron (RF transmitter) has blown. Two types are generally used, either a relay or a triac (semiconductor form of a relay). Trace the primary wires back to where they meet the next component and you'll run into either a relay or a triac. Either is cheap to change (if they are the fault) at an appliance parts supplier. I generally make sure it's a gate/relay problem by first hooking to the primary wired with a voltmeter (in ACV range of course) and see if when it kicks in that there is 110 there or not. If not it's likely the relay/triac, or may even be the board that supplies either triac gate power or relay pulldown power. If 110 is present on the primary then you likely have a dead magnetron. They are replaceable too but dependant on the model they might make the unit obsolete by cost. If the relay or triac have no trigger power then check for burnt resistors first in the board's traces back from the relay or triac trigger point. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Mike Ford > Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 12:16 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Microwave oven collectors? > > > My 17 year old "microprocessor controlled" microwave oven stopped making > food hot the other night. Everything still appears and sounds about the > same, just food stays cold, and when it first happened there was a bit of > the smell of the gates of capacitor heaven being open. Should I take a > swing at fixing it, or yield to the cheap new inverter technology? > > Victim is a Panasonic Dimension 3 microwave/convection oven (top of the > line those many moons ago). Location is SoCal. > > From rhblake at bigfoot.com Fri May 25 12:46:52 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: Microwave oven collectors? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: BTW Panasonic parts are easy to find both at online/catalog parts sellers as well as local appliance parts resellers. Many try to tell you this crap that they don't sell to the public so I generally (used to before I started into business) doing a Rockford and making a fake business card and letting them charge me the tax, or if they didn't I posted it with my use tax at the end of the year (or did I forget). Either way it's all BS and they will sell to you as there isn't any license requirements for fixing appliances like there is for air conditioning. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Mike Ford > Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 12:16 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Microwave oven collectors? > > > My 17 year old "microprocessor controlled" microwave oven stopped making > food hot the other night. Everything still appears and sounds about the > same, just food stays cold, and when it first happened there was a bit of > the smell of the gates of capacitor heaven being open. Should I take a > swing at fixing it, or yield to the cheap new inverter technology? > > Victim is a Panasonic Dimension 3 microwave/convection oven (top of the > line those many moons ago). Location is SoCal. > > From chris at mainecoon.com Fri May 25 12:46:54 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: Hazeltine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Will Wrote: > Oops, I meant to say Hazeltine 2000, not 1500... Sorry! Okay, that's _much_ better. The 2000 was interesting, while the 1500 was a soulless hunk of plastic. > I have all the manuals for one, and that's what made it such a neat > terminal to me, especially the cardcage of 20 or so boards... What about the detached keyboard with the 1" think cable that connected it to the terminal proper? Or its incredible appetite for 2N3055 transistors if you turned it on again too soon after turning it off? > Gawd, I'd love to have one.. Ditto :-) -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From thompson at mail.athenet.net Fri May 25 12:54:31 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist still lives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Our 7.3 Alpha subscription just arrived and it did indeed contain two V5 freeware CD's (in a nifty CD wallet along with the OS and layered product CD's) Look at what is on them will be a good Friday project. On Fri, 25 May 2001, Zane H. Healy wrote: > BTW, any OpenVMS Hobbyists that haven't seen it yet, I'd really recommend > looking at the stuff on the V5 Freeware CD. As far as I know the CD's > aren't available yet. When I ordered the V7.2-1H1 update I also ordered > the Freeware CD and got V4 (which is what I wanted). However, V5 is online > at the OpenVMS website. From what I hear there is so much stuff on V5 that > it only has new versions of stuff from V4 and it now takes 2 CD's. From engdahl at cle.ab.com Fri May 25 12:59:16 2001 From: engdahl at cle.ab.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: what is a CXY08-M good for? References: <200105251708.TAA04259@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <004901c0e544$6a1e95a0$174099a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> I acquired a DECserver 550 for the KDJ11-SD in it, and now I have a pile of these CXY08-M boards. It is an 8-line multiplexed serial I/O board, with modem control. Are these good for anything besides building a DECserver? Will I be able to find an RT-11 or UNIX driver for it? Or maybe, from the CPU side, it might look enough like another DEC serial board that it will work with an existing driver. -- Jonathan Engdahl Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer 24800 Tungsten Road Advanced Technology Euclid, OH 44117 USA Euclid Labs http://users.safeaccess.com/engdahl From engdahl at cle.ab.com Fri May 25 13:03:11 2001 From: engdahl at cle.ab.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: Microwave oven collectors? References: <489.544T650T7844711optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <004f01c0e544$f64619e0$174099a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> Same thing happened to me a couple months ago. Buy your wife a nice new one, she will be happy. Spend your time putting an old PDP-11 together instead. -- Jonathan Engdahl Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer 24800 Tungsten Road Advanced Technology Euclid, OH 44117 USA Euclid Labs http://users.safeaccess.com/engdahl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Ford" To: Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 1:15 PM Subject: Microwave oven collectors? > My 17 year old "microprocessor controlled" microwave oven stopped making > food hot the other night. Everything still appears and sounds about the > same, just food stays cold, and when it first happened there was a bit of > the smell of the gates of capacitor heaven being open. Should I take a > swing at fixing it, or yield to the cheap new inverter technology? > > Victim is a Panasonic Dimension 3 microwave/convection oven (top of the > line those many moons ago). Location is SoCal. > > From foo at siconic.com Fri May 25 12:37:18 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: Hazeltine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 25 May 2001, Will Jennings wrote: > Oops, I meant to say Hazeltine 2000, not 1500... Sorry! I have all the > manuals for one, and that's what made it such a neat terminal to me, > especially the cardcage of 20 or so boards... Gawd, I'd love to have > one.. Sounds familiar. I'll check to see if I've got one of those. A card cage with 20 boards implies this would be a relatively big sucker? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From thompson at mail.athenet.net Fri May 25 13:50:10 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: what is a CXY08-M good for? In-Reply-To: <004901c0e544$6a1e95a0$174099a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> Message-ID: It is supported under Ultrix and VMS, and I believe it is supported or at least partially supported under netBSD. It uses either the DHV or DHQ driver ( I can't recall which and my Ultrix machine isn't on) On Fri, 25 May 2001, Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > I acquired a DECserver 550 for the KDJ11-SD in it, and now I have a pile of > these CXY08-M boards. It is an 8-line multiplexed serial I/O board, with > modem control. Are these good for anything besides building a DECserver? > Will I be able to find an RT-11 or UNIX driver for it? Or maybe, from the > CPU side, it might look enough like another DEC serial board that it will > work with an existing driver. > > -- > Jonathan Engdahl Rockwell Automation > Principal Research Engineer 24800 Tungsten Road > Advanced Technology Euclid, OH 44117 USA > Euclid Labs http://users.safeaccess.com/engdahl > -- From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri May 25 14:00:50 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: what is a CXY08-M good for? In-Reply-To: <004901c0e544$6a1e95a0$174099a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> Message-ID: <200105251900.VAA04830@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 25 May, Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > I acquired a DECserver 550 for the KDJ11-SD in it, and now I have a pile of > these CXY08-M boards. It is an 8-line multiplexed serial I/O board, with > modem control. Are these good for anything besides building a DECserver? > Will I be able to find an RT-11 or UNIX driver for it? My "VAX 4000 Model 300 Technical Infornation", Chapter 2 "Option Specifications" says the CXY08 emulates a DHV11 in DMA mode. So this should work well with VMS, but perhaps not with UNIX, as UNIX does not support DMA on the DHV11. Just give it a try. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE-SMTP at cmh.edu Fri May 25 13:53:38 2001 From: ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE-SMTP at cmh.edu (ANTIGEN_EXCHANGE-SMTP) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: Antigen found W32/Hybris-B virus Message-ID: <6AE7FB95CB8ED411994000D0B782DD8543CC85@exchange1.cmh.edu> Antigen for Exchange found dwarf4you.exe infected with W32/Hybris-B virus. The file is currently Deleted. The message, "classiccmp-digest V1 #609", was sent from owner-classiccmp-digest@classiccmp.org (classiccmp-digest) and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound located at CMHMAIL/CMHMAIL/EXCHANGE-SMTP. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 25 13:12:36 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: Need help In-Reply-To: from "John Honniball" at May 25, 1 02:56:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 988 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010525/2c97aa95/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 25 13:15:08 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:46 2005 Subject: UK In-Reply-To: <3B0E821F.18590.244466F2@localhost> from "Hans Franke" at May 25, 1 04:02:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 515 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010525/a845824d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 25 13:59:10 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:47 2005 Subject: Microwave oven collectors? In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at May 25, 1 10:15:32 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2496 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010525/772ffabd/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 25 13:32:46 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:47 2005 Subject: PERQs and software preservation (was: Xerox Star) In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at May 25, 1 12:22:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3169 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010525/a4bd1d47/attachment.ksh From hans at Huebner.ORG Fri May 25 14:18:15 2001 From: hans at Huebner.ORG (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hans_H=FCbner?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:47 2005 Subject: Apollo DNxx00 mouse? Message-ID: Hi there, I've recently been given an Apollo DN 5500 (*) system which is lacking a mouse. The keyboard does have a DB9F connector, but I suspect that I need some special mouse. Can anyone tell me if and where I could get such a beast? Thanks, Hans (*) The type label of the machine says "Domain Series 4000", but the machine has a 68040, so I suspect that it is a DN5500. Please correct me if I'm wrong. -- finger hans@huebner.org for details From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Fri May 25 14:26:37 2001 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:47 2005 Subject: OT - Nigerian Pigeon Drop Scam( ship trivia ) Message-ID: Actuall Nigeria is not a big country for ship registration A "Flag Of Convenience" (FOC) ship is a ship where the nationality of the owner is different from the country in which the ship is registered. Countries that offer registration of ships owned by foreign interests are considered to have what is called an "open register". Foreign owned ships dominate the flags of "open register" countries. The modern origin of open registries can be traced back to the 1920s, when the United Fruit Company created the Honduran open registry to ensure the cheap and reliable transport of its bananas. The Panamanian open registry came about soon after that because U.S. flagged passenger ships wanted to serve liquor during Prohibition. The Liberian open register came about during the "Cold War" because the U.S. wanted a fleet of "neutral" ships to haul its cargo, mostly oil. Some times it is even hard to trace down the real owners a FOC ship. Often in the register country the address for the ship owners will only be a Post Office Box. From there you must follow a series of front companies, often in different countries, before you end up finding the real owners of a FOC ship. Many large American shipping lines like the American President Lines are leaving U.S. flags and are becoming FOC ships. In 1998 there were 28 open register countries of FOC ships and 19,270 vessels over 100 gt, which comes to 22.5% of the world's fleet and in that year there was a 8.5% increases in FOC ships. Of the top 35 maritime countries based on real ownership of vessels not one of them is an open register country. For example, the true nationality of ownership of ships from Greece that are part of open register fleets (percentage of open register fleets) are as follows: Liberia 12.4%, Panama 11.1%, Cyprus 72.6%, Bahamas 19.0% and Malta 56.3%. Of the top six fleets of gross tonnage in 1998, five of the are open registers for FOC ships; Panama (6,188 vessels), Liberia (1,697 vessels), Bahamas (1,221 vessels), Cyprus (1,650) and Malta (1,378). The U.S. fleet ranks 11th in gross tonnage. . Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu From emu at ecubics.com Fri May 25 14:37:03 2001 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:47 2005 Subject: UK References: <3B0E821F.18590.244466F2@localhost> Message-ID: <3B0EB45F.5243CC8A@ecubics.com> Hans Franke wrote: > > Come on, I wand an Amstrad PDA, and a Sinclair MK 14, > and of course all the other sinclairs, and the BBCs > and yea, I'm still missing any NASCOM 1 or 2 ... ther > is so much great GB computers to get ... isn't it ? Yup. A NASCOM 1 or 2 would be fun ;-) cheers From rhblake at bigfoot.com Fri May 25 14:39:49 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:47 2005 Subject: Microwave oven collectors? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Have to agree with the warning but I've come in contact with both the RF (ouch I hate RF burns) and the HV side of the transformer. Most are 2kv in the older ovens until you get to the 1000watt ovens. The capacitor is genrally safe if he stays away from it as they have ultra-insulated covers, like the anode of a CRT. There was a site on the net that went into all of this but for the life of me I can't locate it anymore. You think the webmaster cooked his ass working on his own 'wave? > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 1:59 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Microwave oven collectors? > > > > > > My 17 year old "microprocessor controlled" microwave oven stopped making > > food hot the other night. Everything still appears and sounds about the > > same, just food stays cold, and when it first happened there > was a bit of > > the smell of the gates of capacitor heaven being open. Should I take a > > swing at fixing it, or yield to the cheap new inverter technology? > > > FIrstly a word of warning. A microwave oven is by far the most dangerous > thing you're ever likely to work on. The power supply can provide about > 4kV at a significant fraction of an amp. This will kill you if you touch > it. Not 'might kill you', but 'will kill you'. > > It is a _lot_ more dangerous than the EHT supply in a monitor or TV, for > example. > > And of course there's always the danger of microwave leakage. > > If I wa going to fix it, I'd start by connecting a mains voltmeter (or > test lamp, or something like that) across the primary (mains side) of the > high voltage transformer. Try to 'cook' (have a cup of water or similar > in the oven as a load). If you get mains at that point, then the > controller, interlocks, etc are all working correctly. If not, then the > problem is on the mains side, which is somewhat safer to work on. > > Assuming that you are getting mains to the HV transformer, then there are > basically only 4 parts in the microwave generator circuit. Discharge the > HV capacitor with a suitable bleeder resistor before touching anything : > > The HV transformer (check the winding resistance when the unit is turned > off and unplugged) > > The rectifier diode. This has a very high forward voltage drop (10s of > volts) and can't be checked with a normal ohmmeter or diode tester > > The HV capacitor, for which you need a high voltage insulation tester to > make any reasonable tests on it. > > The magnetron. You can check the filament continuity (disconnect it from > the transformer), should be very low, and for shorts between the filament > and the anode block. The latter is earthed, the filament runs at a high > -ve voltage wrt the chassis. > > There is some more information in the sci.electronics.repair FAQ. > > I must say, though, that I don't like working on microwave ovens, due to > the high voltage, high current PSU. Monitors and TVs don't bother me that > much, but the thought of working near a transformer that will supply 4kV > at 0.25A or so worries me. > > If you do decide to open it up, take great care. > > And as ever I am not responsible for any injury caused if you do attempt > to repair it. > > -tony From rod.young at wd.gc.ca Fri May 25 15:07:52 2001 From: rod.young at wd.gc.ca (Rod Young) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:47 2005 Subject: DEC TK50Z-FA to -GA Message-ID: Does anyone have the necessary ?ROMs? to upgrade a DEC TK50Z-FA tape drive to the TK50Z-GA? Or perhaps a dead TK50Z-GA that you might consider parting with the ROMs?? The -FA model apparently *only* works on the MicroVAX 2000, and I'd like to connect and use this drive on my Vaxstation 3100/76 SPX. On a similar note, I'm also looking for the 68pin - 50pin external SCSI cable to connect the MicroVAX to an external SCSI device. thanks rod rod.young@wd.gc.ca -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010525/f7f404d5/attachment.html From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 25 15:38:51 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:47 2005 Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist still lives In-Reply-To: from "Paul Thompson" at May 25, 2001 12:54:31 PM Message-ID: <200105252038.NAA08334@shell1.aracnet.com> > Our 7.3 Alpha subscription just arrived and it did indeed contain two V5 > freeware CD's (in a nifty CD wallet along with the OS and layered product > CD's) > > Look at what is on them will be a good Friday project. Is there a part number on the V5 Freeware CD's? I can't afford V7.3 just to get the V5 Freeware CD's. Besides I'm moving to V7.2-1H1 right now and plan on moving to V7.2-2 when it's released. I'll consider V7.3-1 when it's available, but not V7.3. BTW, you should have TCPIP V5.1 with V7.3, simply put, it's sweet! Getting XDM running was a bit trickier than I'd have liked. You've got to copy some templet files to the proper files, but once you do that, XDM works like a dream! This weekends project is getting SMTP configured on the new system and figuring out the Anti-SPAM capabilities. I hope to get Appletalk working and all the latest compiliers installed tonite. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 25 15:43:48 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:47 2005 Subject: DEC TK50Z-FA to -GA In-Reply-To: from "Rod Young" at May 25, 2001 04:07:52 PM Message-ID: <200105252043.NAA08780@shell1.aracnet.com> > Does anyone have the necessary ?ROMs? to upgrade a DEC TK50Z-FA tape drive > to the TK50Z-GA? Or perhaps a dead TK50Z-GA that you might consider parting > with the ROMs?? > > The -FA model apparently *only* works on the MicroVAX 2000, and I'd like to > connect and use this drive on my Vaxstation 3100/76 SPX. On a similar note, > I'm also looking for the 68pin - 50pin external SCSI cable to connect the > MicroVAX to an external SCSI device. I think I've got a copy of the ROM's on my one computer. If you don't hear from me in a couple of days drop me a note privately to remind me. However, if you also need that funky 68pin - 50pin external SCSI cable (I could have sworn the Vaxstation 3100/76 SPX didn't need it), you might want to consider getting a TZ30 drive and installing it internally. I believe you're correct about the -FA only working on the MicroVAX/VAXstation 2000, it's something to do with the braindamaged SCSI controller in the 2000, IIRC. Zane From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri May 25 16:03:40 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:47 2005 Subject: DEC TK50Z-FA to -GA In-Reply-To: Rod Young "DEC TK50Z-FA to -GA" (May 25, 16:07) References: Message-ID: <10105252203.ZM2216@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 25, 16:07, Rod Young wrote: > > [ Attachment (multipart/alternative): 1805 bytes ] > Does anyone have the necessary ?ROMs? to upgrade a DEC TK50Z-FA tape > drive to the TK50Z-GA? Or perhaps a dead TK50Z-GA that you might > consider parting with the ROMs?? It's one EPROM, number 23-261E6. It's a 27C256. Still on the subject of DEC ROMs, as some list members know, I keep images of the ones from boards I have, "just in case", and I have a puzzle. What are 23-398E4 and 23-399E4 from? And another: what ROM goes with 23-116E5 to make the pair? And for the sake of completeness (of a sort) here's a list of ROMs (images) I'm looking for: 23-031E2 VT100 terminal ROM 23-051L1 TQK50 Rev.D1 E3 ROM 23-094E2 VT100 extra chargen 23-095E2 VT100 extra chargen 23-096E2 VT100 extra chargen 23-097E2 VT132 extra chargen 23-098E2 VT132 extra chargen 23-116E5 KDJ-11B (PDP11/73+) boot Version 7 23-116E5 KDJ-11B (PDP11/73+) boot Version 7 [one of the last two lines is obviously a misprint, see above] 23-139E2 VT100 terminal board ROM 23-140E2 VT100 terminal board ROM 23-158E4 early KDF11-BE boot ROMs 23-159E4 early KDF11-BE boot ROMs 23-170E5 TQK50 ROMs, rev.1 23-171E5 TQK50 ROMs, rev.1 23-178E5 RQDX2 T-11 code, issue 1 (V10.0D) 23-179E5 RQDX2 T-11 code, issue 1 (V10.0D) 23-180E2 VT132 terminal board ROM 23-180E5 TQK50 ROMs, rev.2 (C1) 23-181E2 VT132 terminal board 23-181E5 TQK50 ROMs, rev.2 (C1) 23-183E2 VT132 terminal board 23-216E5 RQDX3 T-11 code issue 1 23-217E5 RQDX3 T-11 code issue 1 23-238E4 KDF11-BE (?PDP11) Boot 23-239E4 KDF11-BE (?PDP11) Boot 23-380E4 KDF11-BG (uPDP11/23) boot 23-381E4 KDF11-BG (uPDP11/23) boot 23-451E4 DELUA ROMs 23-452E4 DELUA ROMs -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jpero at sympatico.ca Fri May 25 12:27:23 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:47 2005 Subject: Female MMJ to 25pin male adapter. In-Reply-To: References: <20010518040709.ORDX15234.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <20010525212529.ZZTU15234.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Hi, Found this in my modest closet junkyard. DEC p/n: H8571-F Swap it for similar value of mac part or it's yours for postage cost. Cheers, Wizard From foxvideo at wincom.net Fri May 25 16:49:06 2001 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:47 2005 Subject: OT-Re: Microwave oven collectors? In-Reply-To: References: <200105250641.IAA03342@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <489.544T650T7844711optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010525174516.00a5a680@mail.wincom.net> At 10:15 AM 25/05/2001 -0700, you wrote: >My 17 year old "microprocessor controlled" microwave oven stopped making >food hot the other night. Everything still appears and sounds about the >same, just food stays cold, and when it first happened there was a bit of >the smell of the gates of capacitor heaven being open. Should I take a >swing at fixing it, or yield to the cheap new inverter technology? > >Victim is a Panasonic Dimension 3 microwave/convection oven (top of the >line those many moons ago). Location is SoCal. Suggest you scare it. The turntable in my Dimension 3 quit, motor not running, and as soon as I brought home another used oven the "3" started up again and is still going. Cheers Charlie Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor ON N8Y 3J8 foxvideo@wincom.net Check out: Camcorder Kindergarten at http://chasfoxvideo.com From donm at cts.com Fri May 25 17:24:38 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:47 2005 Subject: DEC TK50Z-FA to -GA In-Reply-To: <10105252203.ZM2216@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 25 May 2001, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On May 25, 16:07, Rod Young wrote: > > > > [ Attachment (multipart/alternative): 1805 bytes ] > > > Does anyone have the necessary ?ROMs? to upgrade a DEC TK50Z-FA tape > > drive to the TK50Z-GA? Or perhaps a dead TK50Z-GA that you might > > consider parting with the ROMs?? > > It's one EPROM, number 23-261E6. It's a 27C256. > > Still on the subject of DEC ROMs, as some list members know, I keep images > of the ones from boards I have, "just in case", and I have a puzzle. What > are 23-398E4 and 23-399E4 from? And another: what ROM goes with 23-116E5 > to make the pair? > > And for the sake of completeness (of a sort) here's a list of ROMs (images) > I'm looking for: > > 23-031E2 VT100 terminal ROM > 23-051L1 TQK50 Rev.D1 E3 ROM > 23-094E2 VT100 extra chargen > 23-095E2 VT100 extra chargen > 23-096E2 VT100 extra chargen > 23-097E2 VT132 extra chargen > 23-098E2 VT132 extra chargen > 23-116E5 KDJ-11B (PDP11/73+) boot Version 7 > 23-116E5 KDJ-11B (PDP11/73+) boot Version 7 > [one of the last two lines is obviously a misprint, see above] Based on the numbering sequence of other pairs (and beyond), it should be either 23-115E5 or 23-117E5. But that is not too much help, is it? - don > 23-139E2 VT100 terminal board ROM > 23-140E2 VT100 terminal board ROM > 23-158E4 early KDF11-BE boot ROMs > 23-159E4 early KDF11-BE boot ROMs > 23-170E5 TQK50 ROMs, rev.1 > 23-171E5 TQK50 ROMs, rev.1 > 23-178E5 RQDX2 T-11 code, issue 1 (V10.0D) > 23-179E5 RQDX2 T-11 code, issue 1 (V10.0D) > 23-180E2 VT132 terminal board ROM > 23-180E5 TQK50 ROMs, rev.2 (C1) > 23-181E2 VT132 terminal board > 23-181E5 TQK50 ROMs, rev.2 (C1) > 23-183E2 VT132 terminal board > 23-216E5 RQDX3 T-11 code issue 1 > 23-217E5 RQDX3 T-11 code issue 1 > 23-238E4 KDF11-BE (?PDP11) Boot > 23-239E4 KDF11-BE (?PDP11) Boot > 23-380E4 KDF11-BG (uPDP11/23) boot > 23-381E4 KDF11-BG (uPDP11/23) boot > 23-451E4 DELUA ROMs > 23-452E4 DELUA ROMs > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri May 25 17:32:42 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:47 2005 Subject: Microwave oven collectors? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010525182812.00a68230@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 07:59 PM 5/25/01 +0100, you wrote: > > > > My 17 year old "microprocessor controlled" microwave oven stopped making > > food hot the other night. Everything still appears and sounds about the > > same, just food stays cold, and when it first happened there was a bit of > > the smell of the gates of capacitor heaven being open. Should I take a > > swing at fixing it, or yield to the cheap new inverter technology? The biggest cause of failures in microwave ovens is the magnets. They're made of a cheap material that loses it's magnetic strength. When that happens, the electrons no longer spiral in the magnatron. Instead thy try to go directly from the cathode to the anode and that causes the magnatron to draw to much current and that causes it to shut down. To repair it, you have to replace the magnitron which usually isn't cost effective even if you can get the replacement part. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri May 25 17:46:20 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:47 2005 Subject: Fwd: Just relisted DATA GENERAL DG Mdl 10 Computer System. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010525184053.00a00d90@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi, Here is a Data General modle 10 that I just for sale on E-bay. The owner says that it has a dead CPU but it looks VERY complete and includes the original software disks and manuals. It also has four terminals with it. It looks like a nice item for a DEC collector (I'm not.) If someone buys it and wants to try and get it running again I also have a model 10 that I'll sell that you can use for parts. I don't know if mine works but it looks complete except for the hard drive is missing. Joe >Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 12:56:07 -0400 >From: "Signet Creative, Inc." >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) >X-Accept-Language: en >To: joe >Subject: Just relisted DATA GENERAL DG Mdl 10 Computer System. > >Joe, > >We just relisted our Data General Desktop Model 10 computer >system. Here's the link to it: > > eBay > item 1240936666 (Ends Jun-04-01 09:49:46 PDT) - DATA GENERAL DG Mdl 10 > System x 4 REDUCED! NR > >It's eBay item number 1240936666. I really appreciate your offer of >passing it along to others on your mailing list. As I mentioned, the >prices have been reduced. > >Thanks again, > >Doug Rossire >Signet Creative, Inc. (dadmr) >sctalent@mediaone.net > > >joe wrote: >>Doug, >> >>At 11:53 AM 5/22/01 -0400, you wrote: >> >Joe, >> > >> >It sounds like a good plan for someone, but I'm just not technically >> >oriented that way. The fix on ours might actually be a very minor thing, >> >we've just never investigated it at all. Thanks for the offer, though. >> > >> >I'm going to be relisting the computer starting this Thursday or Friday >> >with an opening bid of $150, a "Buy It Now" of $250, and again, no >> >reserve. I'm trying to get it down to where we clear something after the >> >shipping charges, depending on where it ends up going. Hopefully, someone >> >in a situation like yours will see it as an opportunity to end up with a >> >system that's more valuable. >> >> Let me know when you re-list it. I'm on a mailing list of people that >>collect old computers. I'll send out a notice about your system. Someone >>should be interested. For me personally, I'm tempted but I allready have >>too many old computers. >> >> > We heard from a museum in Germany that was very interested, but the >> > shipping charges would be about $800! >> >> Ouch! That sounds awefully high. Is that with USPS surface >>shipping? I guess the terminals really add to the weight. >> >> Good Luck, I hope you find it a good home. It's rare to find one as >>complete as yours. >> >> Joe >> >> >Thanks for writing. >> > >> >Doug Rossire >> >Signet Creative, Inc. (dadmr) >> >sctalent@mediaone.net >> > >> > >> >rigdonj@intellistar.net wrote: >> > >> > > To member: dadmr >> > > >From member: rigdonj@intellistar.net >> > > >> > > -------------------- >> > > >> > > Hi, >> > > >> > > I saw your auction for the model 10. That's a nice setup that you >> > have, too bad it doesn't work. However I also have a model 10 but not >> > software or docs for it and I don't plan on trying to restore it so it >> > occured to me that you might be interewsted in it for parts to fix your's >> > with. If you're interested you can contact me at rigdonj@intellistar.net. >> > > >> > > Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri May 25 17:54:41 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:47 2005 Subject: Manuals :Surplus Re: UK In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010525120900.01e3d340@pc> References: <5.1.0.14.1.20010525081807.00a66cf0@mailhost.intellistar.ne t> <01052500495503.24482@pluto.joules.org> <1006.545T1700T165781optimus@canit.se> <1006.545T1700T165781optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010525185125.00a727d0@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 12:09 PM 5/25/01 -0500, you wrote: >At 08:19 AM 5/25/01 -0400, joe wrote: > >>The prblem with school equipment is the disposals policy. As they are > bought > >>with public money the requirements for disposal are very strict. In my > area > >>the policy is: > >> > >>1) Offer to other departments > >>2) Offer to other schools > >>3) Offer to other local authority departments > >>4) Offer to charitable institutions > >>5) Offer to staff > > > > The policy in the US is the same except there's no **requirement** to > offer the stuff to the staff. Although mandy places do. > >And here, they're required to erase all software, and apparently >any docs or disks also get chucked before the item is put up >for surplus sale. Shoot! Usually they just pull and trash the hard drive :-( I don't know what happens to the books but it's rare to get manuals with ANYTHING that gets surplused. I've heard rumors that because of copyright laws (or some othe lame reason) they can't "re-sell" the manuals and have to destroy them. Does anyone know what the exact reason is? Joe >- John From donm at cts.com Fri May 25 18:35:05 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:47 2005 Subject: Manuals :Surplus Re: UK In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010525185125.00a727d0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 25 May 2001, joe wrote: > At 12:09 PM 5/25/01 -0500, you wrote: > >At 08:19 AM 5/25/01 -0400, joe wrote: > > >>The prblem with school equipment is the disposals policy. As they are > > bought > > >>with public money the requirements for disposal are very strict. In my > > area > > >>the policy is: > > >> > > >>1) Offer to other departments > > >>2) Offer to other schools > > >>3) Offer to other local authority departments > > >>4) Offer to charitable institutions > > >>5) Offer to staff > > > > > > The policy in the US is the same except there's no **requirement** to > > offer the stuff to the staff. Although mandy places do. > > > >And here, they're required to erase all software, and apparently > >any docs or disks also get chucked before the item is put up > >for surplus sale. > > >- John > > > > > Shoot! Usually they just pull and trash the hard drive :-( I don't > know what happens to the books but it's rare to get manuals with ANYTHING > that gets surplused. I've heard rumors that because of copyright laws (or > some othe lame reason) they can't "re-sell" the manuals and have to destroy > them. Does anyone know what the exact reason is? > > Joe I cannot say that I 'know', but my guess would be a combination of laziness and ignorance. First, the people who used the equipment are much more interested in getting the replacement equipment installed and to learn more about it. If they do bother to box up manuals, it is unlikely that they are segregated by machine or even generically. Second, the people who actually do the surplussing from the organization don't know (and don't care) about what goes with which. Far easier to palm them all off on some paper recycler, or worse. - don From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 25 18:35:43 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:47 2005 Subject: Anybody need manual for Ampex 219 terminal? Message-ID: <15118.60495.504537.465821@phaduka.neurotica.com> I have an operations manual for an Ampex model 219 terminal. Does anyone need this? Free for the cost of shipping... -Dave McGuire From chomko at greenbelt.com Fri May 25 18:44:18 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:47 2005 Subject: ADM = ? References: Message-ID: <3B0EEE52.1DD0F479@greenbelt.com> Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 24 May 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > On May 24, Eric Dittman wrote: > > > I see ADM3A terminals all the time, in computer stores. > > > They are funny colored now, and have a detached keyboard, > > > and don't work the same. For some reason they are called > > > iMacs now. > > > > *snicker* > > > > I almost bought an iMac when they came out just so I could put it on a > > desk next to my ADM-5. :) > > You guys know the rumor behind the design of the iMac, right? > I gues one of us has to do it... No Sellam, please do tell! Eric > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From rhblake at bigfoot.com Fri May 25 18:51:48 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:47 2005 Subject: Manuals :Surplus Re: UK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The federal government is the worst at disposal - first other interdepartmental agencies, then other federal agencies, then state agencies, then county, then eventually public auction. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Don Maslin > Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 6:35 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Manuals :Surplus Re: UK > > > > > On Fri, 25 May 2001, joe wrote: > > > At 12:09 PM 5/25/01 -0500, you wrote: > > >At 08:19 AM 5/25/01 -0400, joe wrote: > > > >>The prblem with school equipment is the disposals policy. > As they are > > > bought > > > >>with public money the requirements for disposal are very > strict. In my > > > area > > > >>the policy is: > > > >> > > > >>1) Offer to other departments > > > >>2) Offer to other schools > > > >>3) Offer to other local authority departments > > > >>4) Offer to charitable institutions > > > >>5) Offer to staff > > > > > > > > The policy in the US is the same except there's no > **requirement** to > > > offer the stuff to the staff. Although mandy places do. > > > > > >And here, they're required to erase all software, and apparently > > >any docs or disks also get chucked before the item is put up > > >for surplus sale. > > > > >- John > > > > > > > > > > Shoot! Usually they just pull and trash the hard drive :-( > I don't > > know what happens to the books but it's rare to get manuals > with ANYTHING > > that gets surplused. I've heard rumors that because of > copyright laws (or > > some othe lame reason) they can't "re-sell" the manuals and > have to destroy > > them. Does anyone know what the exact reason is? > > > > Joe > > I cannot say that I 'know', but my guess would be a combination of > laziness and ignorance. First, the people who used the equipment are > much more interested in getting the replacement equipment installed and > to learn more about it. If they do bother to box up manuals, it is > unlikely that they are segregated by machine or even generically. > Second, the people who actually do the surplussing from the organization > don't know (and don't care) about what goes with which. Far easier to > palm them all off on some paper recycler, or worse. > > - don > > > From chomko at greenbelt.com Fri May 25 19:27:02 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:47 2005 Subject: ADM style (and Lynwood and MICROSCRIBE) [was: ADM = ?] References: Message-ID: <3B0EF856.75B07C4C@greenbelt.com> Will Jennings wrote: > Hey, I *like* the TeleVideo 910 much more.. Better color choice, I think. Yeah, I like my Televideo 910 better than my ADM-3A, too. Eric > > Not to mention its a damn sight more reliable : ) But my favorite all-in-one > terminal has to be the cute little TeleVideo that also has a phone built > into it (at least that seems right). I'm still kicking myself for the > clean-up we did when was 17 and not interested in old computers yet.. > pitched 4 of em, and 2 of those Televideo PCs, and all kinds of > god-knows-what else.. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From mbg at world.std.com Fri May 25 20:20:49 2001 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:47 2005 Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist still lives Message-ID: <200105260120.VAA03962@world.std.com> I also filled in the on-line form (quite some time ago) and have yet to hear from them... Megan From mbg at world.std.com Fri May 25 20:32:21 2001 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:47 2005 Subject: what is a CXY08-M good for? References: <200105251708.TAA04259@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <200105260132.VAA10413@world.std.com> >I acquired a DECserver 550 for the KDJ11-SD in it, and now I have a pile >of these CXY08-M boards. It is an 8-line multiplexed serial I/O board, >with modem control. Are these good for anything besides building a >DECserver? Will I be able to find an RT-11 or UNIX driver for it? Or >maybe, from the CPU side, it might look enough like another DEC serial >board that it will work with an existing driver. I don't know about third-party drivers, but RT-11 V5.6 and later have latent support for the CXY08 boards... they are programmed just like DHV/DHQ. They look nothing like a DL[V]... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From rdd at smart.net Sat May 26 01:10:52 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:47 2005 Subject: OT-Re: Microwave oven collectors? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010525174516.00a5a680@mail.wincom.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 25 May 2001, Charles E. Fox wrote: > At 10:15 AM 25/05/2001 -0700, you wrote: > >My 17 year old "microprocessor controlled" microwave oven stopped making [...] > >the smell of the gates of capacitor heaven being open. Should I take a > >swing at fixing it, or yield to the cheap new inverter technology? > Suggest you scare it. The turntable in my Dimension 3 quit, motor > not running, and as soon as I brought home another used oven the "3" > started up again and is still going. Or... sell it on E-bilk as a vintage computer controlled microwave oven used in the famed scientific discovery involving the CD Nuclear Glow Test. Some sucker^H^H^H^H^H person with a high ratio of cash to working brain cells seeking an investment just may purchase it iff you ask enough for it, like some amount over US$50,000. Don't forget to mention that this is also controlled by a classic piece of computing technology... mention the microprocessor number in the ad and give a few "impressive technical details." -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From dittman at dittman.net Sat May 26 01:58:15 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:47 2005 Subject: OT-Re: Microwave oven collectors? In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at May 26, 2001 02:10:52 AM Message-ID: <200105260658.f4Q6wFw15330@narnia.int.dittman.net> > On Fri, 25 May 2001, Charles E. Fox wrote: > > At 10:15 AM 25/05/2001 -0700, you wrote: > > >My 17 year old "microprocessor controlled" microwave oven stopped making > [...] > > >the smell of the gates of capacitor heaven being open. Should I take a > > >swing at fixing it, or yield to the cheap new inverter technology? > > > Suggest you scare it. The turntable in my Dimension 3 quit, motor > > not running, and as soon as I brought home another used oven the "3" > > started up again and is still going. > > Or... sell it on E-bilk as a vintage computer controlled microwave > oven used in the famed scientific discovery involving the CD Nuclear > Glow Test. Some sucker^H^H^H^H^H person with a high ratio of cash to > working brain cells seeking an investment just may purchase it iff you > ask enough for it, like some amount over US$50,000. Don't forget to > mention that this is also controlled by a classic piece of computing > technology... mention the microprocessor number in the ad and give a > few "impressive technical details." And make sure you say it is "RARE!" in the title and in the description. I always wonder if the people that have something like "This is a RARE! TRS-80 Model 4 in perfect condition. You won't find another of these in this fine condition ANYWHERE! Don't let this one pass you by! It will sell high!" in their auctions are either stupid, deceitful, or clueless. Esp. when their auction is in the middle of about fifteen other items that are exactly the same. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat May 26 03:25:52 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:47 2005 Subject: Manuals :Surplus Re: UK In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.1.20010525185125.00a727d0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: >> Shoot! Usually they just pull and trash the hard drive :-( I don't >> know what happens to the books but it's rare to get manuals with ANYTHING >> that gets surplused. I've heard rumors that because of copyright laws (or >> some othe lame reason) they can't "re-sell" the manuals and have to destroy >> them. Does anyone know what the exact reason is? Routinely at the university surplus places I go to, all the "paper" stuff goes in the trash. My first stop in such places is of course the trash, but the practice goes too far up the chain so that most "paper" goes in the local trash can, and isn't passed along with the equipment unless its a bunch of clean the closet boxes of junk. Recent finds include a set of boxed Sun manuals, DeskSparq apparently for the IPX (which I have a few of in my collection). Recent non finds, a big two shelf vertical filing cabinet "thing" came in, but instead of folders each shelf was fitted with a row of floppy storage boxes, freshly dumped of course. From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Sat May 26 04:09:13 2001 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:47 2005 Subject: Microwave oven collectors? Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0007A28C@BUSH02> FIrstly a word of warning. A microwave oven is by far the most dangerous thing you're ever likely to work on. The power supply can provide about 4kV at a significant fraction of an amp. This will kill you if you touch it. Not 'might kill you', but 'will kill you'. It is a _lot_ more dangerous than the EHT supply in a monitor or TV, for example. It doesn't hurt as much as a 27KV CRT EHT, or the 5KV (20A) sub mod supply. Lee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The information contained in this email may contain information which is confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat May 26 04:08:24 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:47 2005 Subject: DEC TK50Z-FA to -GA In-Reply-To: Don Maslin "Re: DEC TK50Z-FA to -GA" (May 25, 15:24) References: Message-ID: <10105261008.ZM2716@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 25, 15:24, Don Maslin wrote: > On Fri, 25 May 2001, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > I have a puzzle. [...] what ROM goes with 23-116E5 to make the pair? > Based on the numbering sequence of other pairs (and beyond), it > should be either 23-115E5 or 23-117E5. But that is not too much help, > is it? No, that's the problem :-) DEC sometimes used odd/even numbers and someties even/odd, so I can't tell. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat May 26 04:15:56 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:47 2005 Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist still lives In-Reply-To: Megan "Re: OpenVMS Hobbyist still lives" (May 25, 21:20) References: <200105260120.VAA03962@world.std.com> Message-ID: <10105261015.ZM2720@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 25, 21:20, Megan wrote: > I also filled in the on-line form (quite some time ago) and have > yet to hear from them... I filled it in about 2 weeks ago, when I saw it allowed overseas members, and got a reply a few days ago to say I wasn't eligible (not for basic membership, anyway). So someone does read them, they just take a while to do anything (just over a week in my case). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat May 26 06:33:56 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:47 2005 Subject: Microwave oven collectors? In-Reply-To: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0007A28C@BUSH02> Message-ID: > It is a _lot_ more dangerous than the EHT supply in a monitor or TV, >for > example. > >It doesn't hurt as much as a 27KV CRT EHT, or the 5KV (20A) sub mod supply. I don't like pain, but being dead seems a lot worse. I think I am convinced, out it goes, maybe to Goodwill since the convection and clock still work. From jfoust at threedee.com Sat May 26 07:20:22 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:47 2005 Subject: Manuals :Surplus Re: UK In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010525185125.00a727d0@mailhost.intellistar.ne t> References: <4.3.2.7.0.20010525120900.01e3d340@pc> <5.1.0.14.1.20010525081807.00a66cf0@mailhost.intellistar.ne t> <01052500495503.24482@pluto.joules.org> <1006.545T1700T165781optimus@canit.se> <1006.545T1700T165781optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010526071356.01e04c20@pc> At 06:54 PM 5/25/01 -0400, joe wrote: > Shoot! Usually they just pull and trash the hard drive :-( I don't know what happens to the books but it's rare to get manuals with ANYTHING that gets surplused. I've heard rumors that because of copyright laws (or some othe lame reason) they can't "re-sell" the manuals and have to destroy them. Does anyone know what the exact reason is? Yes, it's the software licenses. As a blanket policy to protect themselves from lawsuits, no doubt, all the docs and software is trashed. (I haven't found that Dumpster yet.) They sell PCs but without operating systems. This is a rotten situation all around. Instead of encouraging people to recognize that software is intellectual property that can be bought and sold, it encourages them to find the pirate brother-in-law who can fix up this computer for them in an evening. - John From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat May 26 04:27:32 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:47 2005 Subject: Apollo DNxx00 mouse? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200105260927.f4Q9RWb00576@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 25 May, Hans H?bner wrote: [Apollo DN 5500 mouse] > Can anyone tell me if and where I could get such a beast? It is very likely that I have still one ore two in my "mouse collection". I'll have a look at it tomorow and if there is still one, I'll give it to you at the next VAX geek meeting. (Or via Post, if it is urgent.) -- tschuess, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Sat May 26 08:32:53 2001 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:47 2005 Subject: Bliss-32 Reference Manual? Message-ID: <226901c0e5e8$5de3fdd0$b423010a@dbnh> Does anyone have an extra Bliss-32 manual they'd like to sell? I used to program in Bliss while I was at DEC and would like to have a Bliss reference manual for my collection of programming language manuals. Thanks, David Betz dbetz@xlisper.mv.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 26 12:22:29 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:47 2005 Subject: Microwave oven collectors? In-Reply-To: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0007A28C@BUSH02> from "Davison, Lee" at May 26, 1 10:09:13 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1698 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010526/f4cda801/attachment.ksh From allain at panix.com Sat May 26 15:02:44 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:47 2005 Subject: Microwave oven emittters? References: Message-ID: <001b01c0e61e$d483f900$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Maybe someone should also put a word in as to jump range, IE 12V has some trouble shocking through the skin (but will do it Most of the time), 110V will do it ALL of the time and 1000V will come out and Get You, IE make mini lightning bolts from the energized item To the unwary. Anyway, Bad! John A. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat May 26 15:40:25 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:47 2005 Subject: identify this cable? Message-ID: <10105262140.ZM3070@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> I've spent part of this afternoon sorting through my collection of cable, discarding (to my wife's amazement, and very likely to my future regret) things I have too much of (5m lengths of CW1308 phone cable) or will never need (very short lengths of ribbon cable, twinflex, 3-core -- why did I keep *them*?) I've found a DEC cable I can't identify. It's labelled BC99J, and consists of a 40-pin Berg connected to about 2m of black multicore, which goes into a rectangular potted box, about 6" x 3" and about 0.5" thick. Out of the other side of the box is about 4m of the same black multicore, with the end cut off. The label is date-stamped 12/6/78. Anyone know what this is/was? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From engdahl at cle.ab.com Sat May 26 15:53:42 2001 From: engdahl at cle.ab.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: 2.11BSD on PDP-11/53 Message-ID: <009801c0e625$f3923e40$35809782@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> Last night I used Warren Toomey's VTserver to download the 2.11BSD boot partition to a cold PDP-11/53 that I put together from the following parts: -KDJ11-PB CPU board from a DECserver 500 (bought for $10 on eBay) -Andromeda UDC11 MFM disk controller (like RQDX3?) from my 11/23 -Maxtor XT-2190 hard drive from a MicroVAX (head 13 bad, so only 130 meg) -DSD StackPac chassis and front panel I am not a UNIX expert. I need a place to ask ignorant* questions, and get meaningful and prompt answers. Is this the right place? Here are the first couple questions: At boot-up, right after it tells me about how much memory I have, it starts spitting gibberish. If I tell Kermit (my console) to switch to 7 bits even parity, I can read stuff again. It appears that the OS is changing the line parameters. Does this make sense? If so, where do I find the file with this config in it? I grepped for "stty" in / and /etc but didn't find anything useful looking. I still can boot RT-11 from the floppy, but when I try to boot UNIX from the hard drive it halts. I did "dd if=/mdec/rauboot of=/dev/ra0a count=1" per Steve Schultz's instructions, but it still won't boot. I can download Warren's boot.dd via VTserver, and type "ra(0,0,0)unix", and UNIX starts right up, so the only problem is the boot sector. It used to boot RT-11 from hard drive fine, before I clobbered it with UNIX. The only catch is that I have to toggle HALT and say "171000G" (there's a boot ROM on the disk controller) because the CPU boot ROMs at 173000 are some goofy DECserver stuff. Any ideas? I partitioned the hard drive with 4.5 meg at ra0a, 4 meg at ra0b, and the rest at ra0d. Was I supposed to disklabel ra0d as "2.11BSD" or leave it "unused" -- the instructions didn't say. When I try to newfs to /dev/ra0d, it gives me "not a character device". Here's ra0d: ls -l /dev/ra0d brw-r----- 1 root 5, 3 Sep 7 1987 /dev/ra0d I need a way to download the rest of the UNIX tar files over the console line. VTserver's documentation sort of stops after booting up the root image. Where do I go from here? Is there some built-in way of using a serial line driver like a tape, such as "tar xvf /dev/tty"? * "Ignorance can be fixed; stupid is forever." -- Jonathan Engdahl Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer 24800 Tungsten Road Advanced Technology Euclid, OH 44117 USA Euclid Labs http://users.safeaccess.com/engdahl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010526/49a77856/attachment.html From rdd at smart.net Sat May 26 16:51:59 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: PSU consolidation In-Reply-To: <001b01c0e61e$d483f900$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Sat, 26 May 2001, John Allain wrote: > Maybe someone should also put a word in as > to jump range, IE 12V has some trouble > shocking through the skin (but will do it > Most of the time), 110V will do it ALL of A 12V, 1000A capacity, automotive battery most likely won't have trouble shocking someone through the skin... Speaking of 12V, I just had an idea... some preservation purists may not like it, but I'm wondering it it might be worth considering: Since most microcomputers and workstations typically use the same voltage supplies, for those that do, how about using one very large power supply to power everything, disabline the internal PSUs. Might this not be more efficient for those that leave at least several computers on at a time? The same for minis, only using bigger PSUs and perhaps some overhead bus bars. :-) ...then just switch any fans over to 120VAC. Has anyone in this group tried this approach to PSU consolidation? -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat May 26 19:06:21 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: Bliss-32 Reference Manual? In-Reply-To: <226901c0e5e8$5de3fdd0$b423010a@dbnh> Message-ID: >Does anyone have an extra Bliss-32 manual they'd like to sell? I used to >program in Bliss while I was at DEC and would like to have a Bliss reference >manual for my collection of programming language manuals. > >Thanks, >David Betz >dbetz@xlisper.mv.com Doesn't the Bliss kit on the Freeware CD-ROM include doc's? I thought it did, but it's been a while since I looked at it. A large amount of doc's, including a bunch of archived doc's are online now, but I've not seen Bliss. I just checked and the V5 CD does, here you go: http://www.openvms.compaq.com/freeware/FREEWARE50/BLISS/ As long as you don't mind non-paper copies, you're good to go. It's got the User Manual and Language Reference. What I don't see is the 3 Volume Bliss Primer I've got, unless that's the Language Reference. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat May 26 19:08:35 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: 2.11BSD on PDP-11/53 In-Reply-To: <009801c0e625$f3923e40$35809782@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> Message-ID: I won't even claim to be able to help you, however, I'd really recommend asking about this in alt.sys.pdp11 or vmsnet.pdp-11, as you'll probably have a lot better luck getting answers. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jpero at sympatico.ca Sat May 26 15:12:42 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: Black drive tray for digital rainbow series. In-Reply-To: References: <20010518040709.ORDX15234.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <20010527001050.CMOC16174.tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Just this one 5.25" drive black plastic tray w/ springy stainless steel for grounding. Trade for Mac parts or yours for postage. Cheers, Wizard From dittman at dittman.net Sat May 26 19:57:35 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: Core Memory ID Message-ID: <200105270057.f4R0vZJ17913@narnia.int.dittman.net> I was looking around my box of old boards and found a core memory set I've had since about '84. It was a leftover from an old system that had been surplussed. I think the system was a PDP-8 of some sort, but I don't know for sure. The memory set consists of a SENSE board and an INHIBIT board connected to the sandwich layer of five board containing th core. There is a label with the following: EM electronic memories a division of electronic memories & magnetics corporation 4KX12 CORE MEMORY STACK 270321 47071MW P/N 906819-A04 S/N xxxxx C/N TS906819A D/C 5272 There is an actual serial number, but the first digit is torn. The plastic strain relief strips and the card edge handles both have "DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION" and "MAYNARD, MASSACHUSETTS" on them. The handles also has "W025" on them. Is this a PDP-8 board, and was it an OEM part supplied to DEC or from DEC? -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat May 26 20:42:11 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: Core Memory ID Message-ID: <00cb01c0e64e$c65a5420$86759a8d@ajp166> It's a standard DEC PDP-8 core plane that was many be one of many subcontractors. However if it's 5 boards it's an older non Omnibus PDP-8. The standard 8/e/f/m omnibus memory is three cards with an over the top connector set. One of the boards would be G111. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Eric Dittman >I was looking around my box of old boards and >found a core memory set I've had since about >'84. It was a leftover from an old system >that had been surplussed. I think the system >was a PDP-8 of some sort, but I don't know for >sure. The memory set consists of a SENSE board >and an INHIBIT board connected to the sandwich >layer of five board containing th core. There >is a label with the following: > >EM electronic memories >a division of electronic memories & magnetics corporation > > 4KX12 CORE MEMORY STACK > 270321 47071MW > >P/N 906819-A04 S/N xxxxx >C/N TS906819A D/C 5272 > >There is an actual serial number, but the first >digit is torn. > >The plastic strain relief strips and the card edge >handles both have "DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION" >and "MAYNARD, MASSACHUSETTS" on them. The handles >also has "W025" on them. > >Is this a PDP-8 board, and was it an OEM part >supplied to DEC or from DEC? >-- >Eric Dittman >dittman@dittman.net From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat May 26 20:46:27 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: 2.11BSD on PDP-11/53 Message-ID: <00d201c0e650$127d0810$86759a8d@ajp166> -----Original Message----- From: Jonathan Engdahl >At boot-up, right after it tells me about how much memory I have, it starts spitting gibberish. If I tell Kermit (my console) to switch to 7 bits even parity, I can read stuff again. It appears that the OS is changing the line parameters. Does this make sense? If so, where do I find the file with this config in it? I grepped for "stty" in / and /etc but didn't find anything useful looking. Yes, unix likes to do that. Very annoying as that is not the standard for most DEC configs. My V7 system also does that. >I still can boot RT-11 from the floppy, but when I try to boot UNIX from the hard drive it halts. I did "dd if=/mdec/rauboot of=/dev/ra0a count=1" per Steve Schultz's instructions, but it still won't boot. I can download Warren's boot.dd via VTserver, and type "ra(0,0,0)unix", and UNIX starts right up, so the only problem is the boot sector. It used to boot RT-11 from hard drive fine, before I clobbered it with UNIX. The only catch is that I have to toggle HALT and say "171000G" (there's a boot ROM on the disk controller) because the CPU boot ROMs at 173000 are some goofy DECserver stuff. Any ideas? Same problem, I have to boot foreign from RT11. I'd say their boot doesnt fit the expected pattern for PDP-11 (microPDP-11) boot block. >I need a way to download the rest of the UNIX tar files over the console line. VTserver's documentation sort of stops after booting up the root image. Where do I go from here? Is there some built-in way of using a serial line driver like a tape, such as "tar xvf /dev/tty"? Same problem. You need to send a binary file over a 7bit serial line. Allison From chomko at greenbelt.com Sat May 26 21:03:03 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: Tektronix 4105 terminal Message-ID: <3B106057.4BC3EECB@greenbelt.com> Is anyone interested in such a thing? I have the screen (no keyboard) portion of the terminal. My undesrtanding is that the terminals were hi-res graphics terminals (for the time) and quite expensive. The unit is quite heavy, and it is taking up space. I figured I'd try and eBay it if I had the keyboard, but since I don't I figured I ask here. Eric From dittman at dittman.net Sat May 26 21:27:10 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: Core Memory ID In-Reply-To: <00cb01c0e64e$c65a5420$86759a8d@ajp166> from "ajp166" at May 26, 2001 09:42:11 PM Message-ID: <200105270227.f4R2RAh18349@narnia.int.dittman.net> > It's a standard DEC PDP-8 core plane that was many > be one of many subcontractors. However if it's 5 boards > it's an older non Omnibus PDP-8. The standard 8/e/f/m > omnibus memory is three cards with an over the top > connector set. One of the boards would be G111. The core board with a readable designation has: B - DIODE BOARD G611 B > >I was looking around my box of old boards and > >found a core memory set I've had since about > >'84. It was a leftover from an old system > >that had been surplussed. I think the system > >was a PDP-8 of some sort, but I don't know for > >sure. The memory set consists of a SENSE board > >and an INHIBIT board connected to the sandwich > >layer of five board containing th core. There > >is a label with the following: > > > >EM electronic memories > >a division of electronic memories & magnetics corporation > > > > 4KX12 CORE MEMORY STACK > > 270321 47071MW > > > >P/N 906819-A04 S/N xxxxx > >C/N TS906819A D/C 5272 > > > >There is an actual serial number, but the first > >digit is torn. > > > >The plastic strain relief strips and the card edge > >handles both have "DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION" > >and "MAYNARD, MASSACHUSETTS" on them. The handles > >also has "W025" on them. > > > >Is this a PDP-8 board, and was it an OEM part > >supplied to DEC or from DEC? > >-- > >Eric Dittman > >dittman@dittman.net > -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Sat May 26 21:56:59 2001 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: Core Memory ID Message-ID: That would be a 4K x 12 bit core stack, fits 8/I, various other negi/posibus 12 bitters as well, I believe. Definetly works with 8/I's. Will J _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From djg at drs-esg.com Sat May 26 22:38:21 2001 From: djg at drs-esg.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: Core Memory ID Message-ID: <200105270338.XAA23540@drs-esg.com> > From: Eric Dittman > I was looking around my box of old boards and > found a core memory set I've had since about > '84. > > The handles also has "W025" on them. > > Is this a PDP-8 board, and was it an OEM part > supplied to DEC or from DEC? > Sound like a PDP-8/I Core stack. I think it was an OEM part supplied by digital. They seemed to use several different manufactures. The one I have in front of me is Core Memories LTD Dublin Ireland. 8/I picture with core modules visible (core is blocks with wire bundles leading to white handles on top left). http://www.pdp8.net/pdp8i/pdp8i.shtml David Gesswein http://www.pdp8.net/ -- Run an old computer with blinkenlights From pdp11 at bellsouth.net Sun May 27 01:28:12 2001 From: pdp11 at bellsouth.net (Doug Carman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: 2.11BSD on PDP-11/53 References: <009801c0e625$f3923e40$35809782@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> Message-ID: <3B109E7C.B2F58F62@bellsouth.net> > Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > Here are the first couple questions: > > At boot-up, right after it tells me about how much memory I have, it > starts spitting gibberish. If I tell Kermit (my console) to switch to > 7 bits even parity, I can read stuff again. It appears that the OS is > changing the line parameters. Does this make sense? If so, where do I > find the file with this config in it? I grepped for "stty" in / and > /etc but didn't find anything useful looking. Yes this is to be expected. The console should be 7 bits. You can set parity to "ignore". > I still can boot RT-11 from the floppy, but when I try to boot UNIX > from the hard drive it halts. I did "dd if=/mdec/rauboot of=/dev/ra0a > count=1" per Steve Schultz's instructions, but it still won't boot. I > can download Warren's boot.dd via VTserver, and type "ra(0,0,0)unix", > and UNIX starts right up, so the only problem is the boot sector. It > used to boot RT-11 from hard drive fine, before I clobbered it with > UNIX. The only catch is that I have to toggle HALT and say "171000G" > (there's a boot ROM on the disk controller) because the CPU boot ROMs > at 173000 are some goofy DECserver stuff. Any ideas? You must use the raw disk device as the output file in the dd command: dd if=/mdec/rauboot of=/dev/rra0a count=1 Note two r's in the disk device name. > I partitioned the hard drive with 4.5 meg at ra0a, 4 meg at ra0b, and > the rest at ra0d. Was I supposed to disklabel ra0d as "2.11BSD" or > leave it "unused" -- the instructions didn't say. When I try to newfs > to /dev/ra0d, it gives me "not a character device". Here's ra0d: You must run mkfs against the raw disk device, which is a character device as opposed to the normal block device. You always run mkfs, or fsck against the raw disk device, but you mount the block device. For your system, /dev/ra0d is the block device, where /dev/rra0d is the raw device. > > ls -l /dev/ra0d > brw-r----- 1 root 5, 3 Sep 7 1987 /dev/ra0d Note the "b" at the front of the permissions, which indicates that this is a block device. Try "ls -l /dev/rra0d". > > > I need a way to download the rest of the UNIX tar files over the > console line. VTserver's documentation sort of stops after > booting up the root image. Where do I go from here? Is there > some built-in way of using a serial line driver like a tape, such as > "tar xvf /dev/tty"? The tar command can take its input from any device that looks like a file or from the standard input. I have not tried to use VTserver in that way. Kermit would be another choice, but comes installed in /usr/new on 2.11 BSD and you don't yet have /usr restored. -- Doug Carman pdp11@bellsouth.net From elf at ucsd.edu Sun May 27 02:41:13 2001 From: elf at ucsd.edu (Eric) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: Synertek KTM-3/80 -- 2 questions Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010527004113.00947650@popmail.ucsd.edu> Hi, I recently made a trade in which I received a KTM-3/80 terminal (thanks Claude W. !) Questions: (1) Does anyone know what the power requirement is? Claude mentioned he tried a 9V AC, 1.5A or 2A power supply - and the terminal produced "garbled" characters on the screen. It was not determined if this was due to an improper power level being supplied - or due to some problem with the terminal itself. (My circuit analyzing skills leave much to be desired.) 2) Upon opening the terminal, at one point someone had added a daughter card. It is of the homespun type, not a commercially sold option. The daughter card has a total of 8 chips on it, which are: N7400A SN74LS393N 74LS04PC SN74LS133N SN74LS02N 74LS04PC It has been so long since I used this terminal - I don't recall if there was some particular feature missing that would have been nice to add. Thanks for any/all info ... Eric F. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun May 27 05:39:56 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: 2.11BSD on PDP-11/53 In-Reply-To: <009801c0e625$f3923e40$35809782@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> Message-ID: <200105271039.f4RAduQ00344@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 26 May, Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > Last night I used Warren Toomey's VTserver to download the 2.11BSD boot partition to a cold PDP-11/53 that I put together from the following parts: > > -KDJ11-PB CPU board from a DECserver 500 (bought for $10 on eBay) > -Andromeda UDC11 MFM disk controller (like RQDX3?) from my 11/23 > -Maxtor XT-2190 hard drive from a MicroVAX (head 13 bad, so only 130 meg) > -DSD StackPac chassis and front panel No DELQA? > I am not a UNIX expert. I need a place to ask ignorant* questions, > and get meaningful and prompt answers. Is this the right place? You may also try the PUPS mailing list. See http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS/ > If I tell Kermit (my console) to switch to 7 bits even parity, I can > read stuff again. [...] I grepped for "stty" in / and /etc but didn't > find anything useful looking. Uhh. I can remember that there was a mail on the PUPS mailing list with a patch to change the console to 8n1. Have a look at the archive... > I still can boot RT-11 from the floppy, but when I try to boot UNIX > from the hard drive it halts. I did "dd if=/mdec/rauboot of=/dev/ra0a > count=1" Use /dev/rra0a ... See page 6 of 2.11BSD/setup.ps. > I partitioned the hard drive with 4.5 meg at ra0a, 4 meg at ra0b, and > the rest at ra0d. I recommend a biger a partition. (8 to 12 MB) > I need a way to download the rest of the UNIX tar files over the > console line. Use the floppy? Split the tar files, dd them to floppies, dd them back on the PDP11 and do somthing like "cat x* | tar xpf -" on the PDP11. -- tschuess, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz From bdc at world.std.com Sun May 27 12:15:34 2001 From: bdc at world.std.com (Brian Chase) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: Wanted: iAPX-432 In-Reply-To: <15116.35293.964658.805289@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 May 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > Another place to find '860 chips is in SGI hardware. The > RealityEngine video system uses eight i860s, and the RealityEngine^2 > uses twelve of them. In each case they're used for geometric > transforms. Another place they can be found is in NeXT's NeXTdimension board. The accelerated color graphics option for the NeXT Cubes. -brian. From bdc at world.std.com Sun May 27 12:24:39 2001 From: bdc at world.std.com (Brian Chase) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: VAX Equipment In-Reply-To: <1ad101c0e447$7ab90290$b423010a@dbnh> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 May 2001, David Betz wrote: > > ADVSYS, too, right? (and, thereby, the graphical "Leather Goddesses > > of Phobos 2" engine). > Yes, I did AdvSys too, and XScheme and Bob and a bunch of other things. It's > nice to know that not *everyone* has forgotten them. Now I just have to port > them to some classic computers so they'll be on topic for this newsgroup! > :-) Well, if you port them to NetBSD I'll be able to run them on my VAXen. -brian. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 27 12:32:54 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: 0.156" edge connectors Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 683 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010527/70fdbc37/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 27 12:42:33 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: Mildly OT : HP9x (Topcat) chargers Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1416 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010527/5d595ad6/attachment.ksh From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun May 27 12:58:58 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: Wanted: iAPX-432 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200105271758.TAA11155@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 27 May, Brian Chase wrote: >> Another place to find '860 chips is in SGI hardware. The >> RealityEngine video system uses eight i860s, and the RealityEngine^2 >> uses twelve of them. In each case they're used for geometric >> transforms. > > Another place they can be found is in NeXT's NeXTdimension board. The > accelerated color graphics option for the NeXT Cubes. And the PXG TurboChannel graphic boards made by DEC. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 27 13:02:37 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: Wanted: iAPX-432 In-Reply-To: Re: Wanted: iAPX-432 (Brian Chase) References: <15116.35293.964658.805289@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <15121.16701.684938.903662@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 27, Brian Chase wrote: > Another place they can be found is in NeXT's NeXTdimension board. The > accelerated color graphics option for the NeXT Cubes. Those sure are nice boards. They're quite powerful for video hacking, as well as very good at paying a good percentage of my rent for the past few months. 8-) -Dave McGuire From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 27 13:05:47 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: 0.156" edge connectors References: Message-ID: <001501c0e6d7$a8292600$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Do you need a PC-mount version or a wire-wrap? I've got a few of the PC-mount types and generally notice when I see them, which I do, from time to time, having built a product on them back in the early '80's. However, I've not seen them used for quite a while. Have you checked the likely suspects, e.g. DigiKey, Jameco, JDR, etc? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 11:32 AM Subject: 0.156" edge connectors > In order to connect one of my homebrew projects to a piece of classic > computer hardware (an HP3421 data logger), I need a 22 pin (each side) > double sided edge connector (so 44 contacts total) with a 0.156" pitch > between the contacts. > > I believe this is a fairly common connector in the States, but it's not > used much in the UK and I haven't found a company here who can supply > them. RS components, etc, list them, but are out of stock and don't know > when they'll be getting some more of them. > > So, does anyone know a company (either in the UK, or willing to ship to > the UK) who can supply these in small quantities (I'd be looking to buy > around 10 of them I think). > > -tony > > From jpero at sympatico.ca Sun May 27 09:27:39 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: Claim status on Female MMJ to 25pin male adapter. In-Reply-To: <3B1123B0.9FA29FED@internet1.net> Message-ID: <20010527182544.TVLF15234.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Hi Everyone, A person have laid their hand on that adapter and I'm waiting for deal to go through so please wait for updates. Seems everybody is lazy over the weekend or busy with holidays. Anyway, enjoy your break! Cheers, Wizard From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun May 27 13:37:56 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: DEC RXV21 with 5.25 floppy Message-ID: <200105271837.UAA11269@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Hi. I decided to write a NetBSD driver for the DEC QBus RXV21 8" floppy controller. Unfortunately I have only two controllers, no 8" drive nor medium. I thought that this would'nt be a problem, as it is possible to connect a 5.25" drive to a 8" floppy controller. But the medium needs to be reformated. Now that I have the controller doc, I had to read that the RXV21 can not format a floppy. It needs preformated media. Would it be possible to use some other machine* with 5.25" floppy drive to format the 5.25 media an way that the RXV21 can read it? * Other machines are QBus MicroVAXen, VAXstation 2000 and PDP11 with RQDX or PeeCees. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 27 13:32:41 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: 0.156" edge connectors In-Reply-To: <001501c0e6d7$a8292600$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at May 27, 1 12:05:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1183 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010527/5b6d55b2/attachment.ksh From witchy at vorbis.demon.co.uk Sun May 27 13:57:01 2001 From: witchy at vorbis.demon.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: ebaying microwaves In-Reply-To: <200105270059.TAA99319@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: > Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 01:58:15 -0500 (CDT) > From: Eric Dittman > Subject: Re: OT-Re: Microwave oven collectors? > > I always wonder if the people that have something like "This is > a RARE! TRS-80 Model 4 in perfect condition. You won't find > another of these in this fine condition ANYWHERE! Don't let > this one pass you by! It will sell high!" in their auctions > are either stupid, deceitful, or clueless. Esp. when their > auction is in the middle of about fifteen other items that are > exactly the same. I've a page dedicated to people like that on my museum site, which now should be compatible with all graphic browsers according to the W3C. Lynx I'm not sure about yet since I stopped working on a text-friendly version when I lost my job! It's at http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk under the 'WOW*RARE*L@@K' section :) cheers, From witchy at vorbis.demon.co.uk Sun May 27 14:15:23 2001 From: witchy at vorbis.demon.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: Cool brit stuff In-Reply-To: <200105252354.SAA88810@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: > Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 16:02:39 +0200 > From: "Hans Franke" > Subject: Re: UK > > And what's about all that cool brit stuff ? > > Come on, I wand an Amstrad PDA, and a Sinclair MK 14, > and of course all the other sinclairs, and the BBCs > and yea, I'm still missing any NASCOM 1 or 2 ... ther > is so much great GB computers to get ... isn't it ? How many BBCs and 'other' Sinclairs would you like, Hans? :o) I've got one or 2 spare.... cheers adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the Online Computer Museum 0:OK, 0:1 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun May 27 14:28:03 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: DEC RXV21 with 5.25 floppy Message-ID: <013901c0e6e5$0309ff60$86759a8d@ajp166> From: jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de >I decided to write a NetBSD driver for the DEC QBus RXV21 8" floppy controller. Unfortunately I have only two controllers, no 8" drive nor medium. I thought that this would'nt be a problem, as it is possible to If you have the controller (the qbus card) you have less than 15% of an RX02 system. IT's only an interface. >Would it be possible to use some other machine* with 5.25" floppy drive to format the 5.25 media an way that the RXV21 can read it? No. RXV21 is dual denisty and the double density is a DEC oddball format using M2FM rather than MFM. Also the board that goes in the Qbus slot (RXV21) is an interface not a floppy controller. That "controller" is in the RX02 drive box and is a 2901 based affair. Allison From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun May 27 15:25:50 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: DEC RXV21 with 5.25 floppy In-Reply-To: <013901c0e6e5$0309ff60$86759a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <200105272025.WAA11569@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 27 May, ajp166 wrote: > If you have the controller (the qbus card) you have less than 15% of > an RX02 system. IT's only an interface. It is no original DEC RXV21. It is a third paty product, "MXV21" made by "MDA". There is all the stuff on it to make it a complete controller. Read/write circuit, 2 x AM2901 with all the AM29xx stuff around it, TMS4044 SRAM, ... It has the usual 50 pin connector for 8" floppy drives. If I plug it into one of my QBus VAXen it is shown as RXV21 by the "show qbus" command. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 27 15:28:52 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: DEC RXV21 with 5.25 floppy In-Reply-To: <013901c0e6e5$0309ff60$86759a8d@ajp166> from "ajp166" at May 27, 1 03:28:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2182 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010527/c72720dc/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun May 27 15:42:33 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: Cool brit stuff In-Reply-To: "Adrian Graham" "Cool brit stuff" (May 27, 20:15) References: Message-ID: <10105272142.ZM4212@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 27, 20:15, Adrian Graham wrote: > > From: "Hans Franke" > > And what's about all that cool brit stuff ? > > > > Come on, I wand an Amstrad PDA, and a Sinclair MK 14, > > and of course all the other sinclairs, and the BBCs > > and yea, I'm still missing any NASCOM 1 or 2 ... ther > > is so much great GB computers to get ... isn't it ? > How many BBCs and 'other' Sinclairs would you like, Hans? :o) I've got one > or 2 spare.... I might have a Nascom 1 to dispose of shortly. I'll want some money for it though, as I paid Real Money for it myself. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun May 27 15:40:44 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: DEC RXV21 with 5.25 floppy In-Reply-To: jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de "DEC RXV21 with 5.25 floppy" (May 27, 20:37) References: <200105271837.UAA11269@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <10105272140.ZM4208@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 27, 20:37, jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > I decided to write a NetBSD driver for the DEC QBus RXV21 8" floppy > controller. Unfortunately I have only two controllers, no 8" drive nor > medium. I thought that this would'nt be a problem, as it is possible to > connect a 5.25" drive to a 8" floppy controller. Yes, but you've not got a controller. You've only got the QBus interface that taslks to the controller, which is in the RX02 chassis. Unless what you have is a Plessey or General Robotics RXV21 (GXV21?) which connects to 8" that have an SA800/SA850 interface. That, however, is a very different animal. > But the medium needs to > be reformated. Now that I have the controller doc, I had to read that > the RXV21 can not format a floppy. It needs preformated media. Well, if you have a real RX02, it can "reformat" RX01 disks. I doesn't actually reformat them in the sense that is usually meant, though. It takes a disk already formatted with 128-byte single-density sectors (IBM standard) and rewrites the data portion of each sector (NOT the headers, which remain FM) as 256-byte blocks in MFM. > Would it be possible to use some other machine* with 5.25" floppy drive > to format the 5.25 media an way that the RXV21 can read it? You could use a PC to format a disk so it looked like a single-density 8" disk laid out the same way as an RX01 disk. To do that, you'd need a suitable drive, and controller that can handle 250kHz data in FM (single-density). Your RQDX controllers certainly can't do it. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From bdc at world.std.com Sun May 27 16:05:17 2001 From: bdc at world.std.com (Brian Chase) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: Wanted: iAPX-432 In-Reply-To: <15121.16701.684938.903662@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 27 May 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 27, Brian Chase wrote: > > Another place they can be found is in NeXT's NeXTdimension board. The > > accelerated color graphics option for the NeXT Cubes. > > Those sure are nice boards. They're quite powerful for video hacking, > as well as very good at paying a good percentage of my rent for the > past few months. 8-) Really? Well, I must ask what it is you're doing with them :-) I finally got my hands on a NeXT 040/25 Cube, saved from the dumpster. Someone had written "TRASH" in permanent black marker over every one of its six surfaces. As it turns out though, the only thing wrong with it was that the internal SCSI cable was unplugged from the drive. Cosmetically it leaves a bit to be desired, but it's a nice performer since I've upgraded it to 64MB of RAM. -brian. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 27 16:13:06 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: Wanted: iAPX-432 In-Reply-To: Re: Wanted: iAPX-432 (Brian Chase) References: <15121.16701.684938.903662@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <15121.28130.880563.500745@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 27, Brian Chase wrote: > > Those sure are nice boards. They're quite powerful for video hacking, > > as well as very good at paying a good percentage of my rent for the > > past few months. 8-) > > Really? Well, I must ask what it is you're doing with them :-) I finally Selling the little buggers on eBay. They go for anywhere between $250 and $500, and I picked up about twenty of them for less than $20/ea. > got my hands on a NeXT 040/25 Cube, saved from the dumpster. Someone had > written "TRASH" in permanent black marker over every one of its six Oh, nice. This person must be found and killed. Slowly. > surfaces. As it turns out though, the only thing wrong with it was that > the internal SCSI cable was unplugged from the drive. Cosmetically it > leaves a bit to be desired, but it's a nice performer since I've upgraded > it to 64MB of RAM. Cool! -Dave McGuire From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun May 27 16:15:55 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: DEC RXV21 with 5.25 floppy In-Reply-To: jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de "Re: DEC RXV21 with 5.25 floppy" (May 27, 22:25) References: <200105272025.WAA11569@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <10105272215.ZM4236@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 27, 22:25, jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > It is no original DEC RXV21. It is a third paty product, "MXV21" made by > "MDA". There is all the stuff on it to make it a complete controller. > Read/write circuit, 2 x AM2901 with all the AM29xx stuff around it, > TMS4044 SRAM, ... It has the usual 50 pin connector for 8" floppy > drives. If I plug it into one of my QBus VAXen it is shown as RXV21 by > the "show qbus" command. Then it might actually have a formatter built in to its firmware, like the Plessey and GR ones I mentioned in my earlier reply. Several companies seem to have copied the GR system, and your description matches (though that's probably not surprising). On an RXV21, there are three bits in the CSR which determine the operation to be performed when the CSR is written to. The commands in binary are: 000 fill buffer (ie transfer data from host to controler) 001 empty buffer (ie transfer data from controller to host) 010 write sector (using the contents of the controller buffer) 011 read sector (from floppy into controler buffer) 100 set media density -- see below 101 read status (updates the controller registers with drive etc status) 110 write deleted data (like 010 except with a special address mark) 111 read error code (used to access extended status registers) On a DEC RXV21, the 100 code to set media density is only used to alter SD to DD or vice-versa (according to whether bit 8, the DENSITY bit, is set in the CSR or not). To do this, you set/clear the appropriate bits in the CSR according to which drive you want, which density, etc, and at the same time set bits 1-3 (the command bits) to 100. Then you poll the CSR until the TR (Transfer Request, bit 8) is set. When it is, you write the value (octal)111. The drive then rewrites the headers to indicate the appropriate density, and writes zeros in the data fields. The disk has to already have a valid format on it. However, if you use a GR or Plessey RXV21, and reply with the value (octal)222 instead of (octal)111, it formats the disk, which needn't have previously had any recognisable format on it at all. If yours is a copy of the GR RXV21 then it should not only be able to format disks, but will work with double-sided disks or up to 4 single-sided disks, not just two single-sided. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From foxvideo at wincom.net Sun May 27 16:30:07 2001 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: 0.156" edge connectors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010527164036.00a5f0c0@mail.wincom.net> At 06:32 PM 27/05/2001 +0100, you wrote: >In order to connect one of my homebrew projects to a piece of classic >computer hardware (an HP3421 data logger), I need a 22 pin (each side) >double sided edge connector (so 44 contacts total) with a 0.156" pitch >between the contacts. > >I believe this is a fairly common connector in the States, but it's not >used much in the UK and I haven't found a company here who can supply >them. RS components, etc, list them, but are out of stock and don't know >when they'll be getting some more of them. > >So, does anyone know a company (either in the UK, or willing to ship to >the UK) who can supply these in small quantities (I'd be looking to buy >around 10 of them I think). > >-tony Hi, Tony: I am looking at an Amphenol connector, # 225-22221-101, gold contacts, and a Radio Shack connector, # 276-1551, tinned contacts. Both these products should be available on NA. I sometimes deal with Electrosonic, 110 Gordon Baker Rd. Willowdale Ont. M2H 3B3 1-416-494-1555. http://www.e-sonic.com. They are Amphenol dealers, but don't show that part in the catalogue that I have. Regards Charlie Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor ON N8Y 3J8 foxvideo@wincom.net Check out: Camcorder Kindergarten at http://chasfoxvideo.com From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun May 27 17:01:27 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: DEC RXV21 with 5.25 floppy In-Reply-To: <10105272140.ZM4208@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <200105272201.AAA11788@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 27 May, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Unless what you have is a Plessey or General Robotics RXV21 (GXV21?) > which connects to 8" that have an SA800/SA850 interface. "MXV21" from "MDA" (Micro Developement Associates) is one card, the other is "MXV22" from "MTI" (Micro Technology Inc.) There is a lot of AM29xx stuff on them... > That, however, is a very different animal. Sorry that I didn't wrote this in my first mail. I did not knew that the DEC RXV21 / RX02 is that different. > Well, if you have a real RX02, it can "reformat" RX01 disks. [...] This is weird. Typical DEC. ;-) > You could use a PC to format a disk so it looked like a single-density 8" > disk laid out the same way as an RX01 disk. To do that, you'd need a > suitable drive, and controller that can handle 250kHz data in FM > (single-density). This means that all I need is to format a 5,25" SD floppy with 77 tracks, 128 bytes per sector, and 26 sectors and it will work at least as RX01? > Your RQDX controllers certainly can't do it. Even with xxdp? Just dding the xxdp image with the VAX and using it on the 11/73 would be easy. I have only one PC that is in working order (my server), but the floppy interface on this machine is broken... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From vcf at siconic.com Sun May 27 16:09:26 2001 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: (2) Eagle II's in Dallas, TX, need new home Message-ID: If you are interested in acquiring an Eagle II or two, Jim in Forney, Texas (just outside Dallas) has a couple up for grabs. Please contact him at . These aren't free so make an offer. I feel $20 for a complete setup (computer, software, manuals) would be reasonable. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From glinder at ews.uiuc.edu Sun May 27 17:54:07 2001 From: glinder at ews.uiuc.edu (Greg Linder) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: Digital AXP 150 questions- Message-ID: I picked up two Digital DECpc AXP150's from a buddy. He pulled the ram, but they still have everything else. I pulled some old simms from some other dumpseter trips, but can't seem to get anything to come up. When I power them on, the LED indicators either tell me there is problem in RAM bank one, or else all LED's on when I power it on with no RAM in it. Does anyone have any of these things in an operating state? Can anyone offer any advise on gettin these up? I have always wanted an Alpha to run VMS on, and I think these will do it. Any advise? Thank you very much! Greg Linder glinder@uiuc.edu glinder@ews.uiuc.edu From glinder at ews.uiuc.edu Sun May 27 17:54:50 2001 From: glinder at ews.uiuc.edu (Greg Linder) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: IBM 3290 2 questions Message-ID: I was recently climbing around in a dumpster, and pulled out two IBM 3290 plasma display terminals. Accordingt to what I can find online, they are a beefy sort of 3270 terminal that supports split screen and other stuff. Because I don't have any IBM equipment to hook it up to, and I really want to see something pretty on the display, is there any other way to get these to speak to anything except over the BNC which is on the bottom of the screen? I have not actually powered either one of them up yet- They rode back to my house in the back of an open-back pickup truck, so I took them apart and am letting them dry out before I even try. They are built typical IBM-tough, and I kind of like the looks of them. They appear toe be about 19" diagonal, and they each weigh close to 40 pounds. The back comes off with these simple little springy clamp things, and the electronics iniside are pretty cool looking. Can anybody point me to any technical info on these bad boys? They look really cool. Thank you, Greg Linder glinder@ews.uiuc.edu glinder@uiuc.edu From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun May 27 18:19:18 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: DEC RXV21 with 5.25 floppy In-Reply-To: jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de "Re: DEC RXV21 with 5.25 floppy" (May 28, 0:01) References: <200105272201.AAA11788@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <10105280019.ZM4338@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 28, 0:01, jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > > Well, if you have a real RX02, it can "reformat" RX01 disks. > [...] > This is weird. Typical DEC. ;-) I couldn't possibly comment :-) > This means that all I need is to format a 5,25" SD floppy with 77 > tracks, 128 bytes per sector, and 26 sectors and it will work at least > as RX01? Yes, but get the data rate correct. An 8" disk uses twice the data rate of a 5.25" disk for the same density. And an 8" disk spins at 360 rpm, whereas (at least for SD and DD) a normal 5.25" spins at 300 rpm. That's why Mitsubishi used to make special (expensive) 5.25" drives to emulate 8" drives. However, HD drives normally spin at 360 rpm. > > Your RQDX controllers certainly can't do it. > Even with xxdp? Just dding the xxdp image with the VAX and using it on > the 11/73 would be easy. I have only one PC that is in working order > (my server), but the floppy interface on this machine is broken... No, I never heard of any XXDP utility to format floppies other than RX33, and I doubt if it's possible. The work is all done by the RQDX controller. RQDX1 and RQDX2 can't format floppies at all. RQDX3 can format RX33. You need a Rainbow (or a PC, or an Archimedes) to format RX50. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From edick at idcomm.com Sun May 27 18:50:34 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: 0.156" edge connectors References: Message-ID: <001101c0e707$d2d16720$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> These are American companies, so their behavior is completely unpredictable, except in that they'll take every opportunity to take your money. If they can FedEx it to you and make an extra few dollars, they'll do that, methinks. As for the 1" tapped spacers, one of our local surplus houses has them, though I don't remember whether they have the 2x22x 0.156" edge connectors with the solder tags right now. Nonetheless, I think they'd make the attempt to ship to you, though I think it might work better for you if I did it, since I can claim that it's a gift and of no economic value. What's the policy in Britain regarding gifts of old hi-tech gear? I have the spacers and may even have a 2x22x0.156 with solder tags down in the "pit" somewhere. Perhaps I can find it. IIRC, I do have one that I used in order to attach to a Digital Group video/cassette interface board some 20+ years ago. Maybe that's the one I'm thinking of. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 12:32 PM Subject: Re: 0.156" edge connectors > > > > Do you need a PC-mount version or a wire-wrap? > > Ideally solder-tag. The I/O connectors on the HP?421 are the card edges > of the option boards (Analogue mux, digital I/O) in the instrument. I > need to connect a cable to one of these boards. I can use anything, though. > > I've made up a strain-relief bracket [1] so the cable is not likely to fall > off, not matter what sort of tags the edge connector has. > > [1] I needed a couple of 1" long tapped spacers to fix the bracket to the > connector. I had a choice, either spend an hour in the garage with a > length of brass rod, parting off sections, facing the ends, drilling down > the centre and tapping, or spend a couple of hours going to the nearest > shop that might have had such items (but which probably didn't). Guess > which I did :-) > > > > > > I've got a few of the PC-mount types and generally notice when I see them, which > > I do, from time to time, having built a product on them back in the early '80's. > > However, I've not seen them used for quite a while. Have you checked the likely > > suspects, e.g. DigiKey, Jameco, JDR, etc? > > Not yet... Do those companies ship worldwide? We don't normally consider > them in the UK. > > -tony > > From vaxman at qwest.net Sun May 27 19:14:29 2001 From: vaxman at qwest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: Bliss-32 Reference Manual? In-Reply-To: <226901c0e5e8$5de3fdd0$b423010a@dbnh> Message-ID: Does anyone have another extra Bliss-32 manual they'd like to sell? Or perhaps a scan? I'm wading through the DECWindows listings to extract the programmer interface to the SPX graphics board, and I'm more than slightly confused (even more than usual...) Clint On Sat, 26 May 2001, David Betz wrote: > Does anyone have an extra Bliss-32 manual they'd like to sell? I used to > program in Bliss while I was at DEC and would like to have a Bliss reference > manual for my collection of programming language manuals. > > Thanks, > David Betz > dbetz@xlisper.mv.com > > > From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1327.monmouth.com Sun May 27 20:08:09 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1327.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: Digital AXP 150 questions- In-Reply-To: from Greg Linder at "May 27, 2001 05:54:07 pm" Message-ID: <200105280108.f4S189D07954@bg-tc-ppp1327.monmouth.com> > I picked up two Digital DECpc AXP150's from a buddy. He pulled the > ram, but they still have everything else. I pulled some old simms from > some other dumpseter trips, but can't seem to get anything to come > up. When I power them on, the LED indicators either tell me there is > problem in RAM bank one, or else all LED's on when I power it on with no > RAM in it. Does anyone have any of these things in an operating state? Can > anyone offer any advise on gettin these up? I have always wanted an Alpha > to run VMS on, and I think these will do it. Any advise? Thank you very > much! > > Greg Linder > glinder@uiuc.edu > glinder@ews.uiuc.edu I think they're just 60ns True-Parity Fast Page Mode simms. I don't think you've got parity simms in. Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From fernande at internet1.net Sun May 27 20:45:25 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: FREE Stuff!! Pick up only! Message-ID: <3B11ADB5.8F534C19@internet1.net> Hello, I really want to get rid of these two items! Cipher Tape drive (open real) Model C880340-96-15250 Part Number 961210-001 Option B I have the Q-bus card that will drive this beast, but no cables. The card is an Emulex TC02 Texas Instruments Professional Computer. It is the size of an IBM PC and uses the 8088 processor, but requires a TI version of MSDOS. It won't boot using standard MSDOS. It also requires a TI keyboard, and I am not sure what it uses for a monitor. I don't have either monitor, or keyboard. It is in great shape. Please make sure you email directly, as this is being posted to two lists. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA (Battle Creek) From ndiablo at diablonet.net Sun May 27 17:31:57 2001 From: ndiablo at diablonet.net (Netdiablo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: Digital AXP 150 Questions Message-ID: <3B11805D.A5423E53@diablonet.net> As someone else stated earlier, make sure that you're using true parity SIMMS - the machine will not run with any other type of memory. Another thing you might want to take into account (which stumped me for quite a while until I found the hardware reference for the system) is that a bank is NOT four consecutive SIMM sockets - the system is set up so that a bank is EVERY OTHER SIMM socket (that is, rather than the banks laid out as 00001111, they are laid out as 01010101). Hope this helps! --Sean Caron (root@diablonet.net) | http://www.diablonet.net From red at bears.org Sun May 27 21:27:31 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: Wanted: iAPX-432 In-Reply-To: <15121.28130.880563.500745@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 27 May 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > Selling the little buggers on eBay. They go for anywhere between > $250 and $500, and I picked up about twenty of them for less than $20/ea. Hey! I want one of them... got any left? ok r. From allain at panix.com Sun May 27 07:12:44 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: IBM 3290 2 questions References: Message-ID: <000001c0e6c0$661f23c0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> I saw one (display only) hooked up to a PC once, but it was probably through a special adaptor card. Someone you probably want to talk to is William Donzelli. John A. From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Sun May 27 22:26:46 2001 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: Cool brit stuff Message-ID: Cool Brit stuff? OK, I'll take some ICL 29xx series, some CTL minis, some GEC's, and any other British mainframes/minis/supers that I have failed to mention : ) I do have an ICL 29xx reference card, however, since the guy who gave me my IBM 5362 is English and had dug it up rummaging through his stuff to find all the items he could for me. He no longer had any CTL stuff, unfortunately. Will J _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From jss at ou.edu Sun May 27 22:46:58 2001 From: jss at ou.edu (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:48 2005 Subject: Locking RA81 heads Message-ID: <991021618.3b11ca3218028@email.ou.edu> Well, I'll be leaving tomorrow afternoon to pick up the VAX 8600 lot at Austin. I have a question regarding the locking of heads on the RA81s. When I've hauled one before, the owner already had it locked and ready to go. The status of the RA81s at Austin is unknown. I seem to recall that the heads should be locked only while the disk is spinning or scrapage of the platter will occur. My question is this: assuming the disks are not locked and there is no way to spin them up, should I haul them unlocked or go ahead and try locking them? -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@ou.edu From rws at enteract.com Sun May 27 23:13:22 2001 From: rws at enteract.com (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: Locking RA81 heads In-Reply-To: <991021618.3b11ca3218028@email.ou.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 27 May 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > seem to recall that the heads should be locked only while the disk > is spinning or scrapage of the platter will occur. I'd never heard of this on an RA81. The two I got yesterday were locked up while stopped, under direction of two sysadmins who have been working with this stuff for a long time. The disks certainly don't say anything about it. Richard Schauer rws@enteract.com From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sun May 27 23:29:16 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: Cool brit stuff In-Reply-To: from Adrian Graham at "May 27, 1 08:15:23 pm" Message-ID: <200105280429.VAA03392@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > How many BBCs and 'other' Sinclairs would you like, Hans? :o) I've got one > or 2 spare.... Really? Contact me off list, I've been looking for a BBC Micro. :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Dihydrogen monoxide -- the leading environmental pollutant! www.dhmo.org --- From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1249.monmouth.com Sun May 27 23:33:19 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1249.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: Locking RA81 heads In-Reply-To: from "Richard W. Schauer" at "May 27, 2001 11:13:22 pm" Message-ID: <200105280434.f4S4Yn600755@bg-tc-ppp1249.monmouth.com> > On Sun, 27 May 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > seem to recall that the heads should be locked only while the disk > > is spinning or scrapage of the platter will occur. > > I'd never heard of this on an RA81. The two I got yesterday were locked > up while stopped, under direction of two sysadmins who have been working > with this stuff for a long time. The disks certainly don't say anything > about it. > > Richard Schauer > rws@enteract.com I've heard this mentioned... I think that I've locked them both ways while at DEC with no problem. However, they were spun down and fully parked (I think they had a landing/parking zone) before I locked them. I was warned about the locking them while spinning only after I'd worked on at least 20 or so with the fatal glue stiction problem. Now, Eagles always got locked down the right way. Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From hans at Huebner.ORG Sun May 27 23:55:24 2001 From: hans at Huebner.ORG (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hans_H=FCbner?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: Bliss-32 Reference Manual? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 27 May 2001, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: > Does anyone have another extra Bliss-32 manual they'd like to sell? > Or perhaps a scan? http://www.openvms.compaq.com/freeware/FREEWARE50/BLISS/ The Manual is included in PDF and Postscript formats. Hope this helps, Hans -- finger hans@huebner.org for details From zera at nonstop.net.il Mon May 28 04:32:15 2001 From: zera at nonstop.net.il (zera@nonstop.net.il) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: %20F/A:%20%20T3200,%20T1000XE%20and%20SLT%20286 Message-ID: <20010528083146.VCNF365.ender@zera> Is the Toshiba T1000XE still available? If yes, what is price. I can pay by bank transfer or bank check. I am willing to pay shipping. My old unit died -- both lcd and hd -- and just want a replacement. Have batteries. George Zborowski Ashdod Israel zera@barak-online.net From red at bears.org Mon May 28 04:13:48 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: Offered: classic magazines Message-ID: Kind of a random and eclectic lot, these are from my stock of library duplicates: Byte - Vol. 7, Nr. 4 Apr 1982 Human Factors Engineering - Vol. 7, Nr. 7 Jul 1982 Computers in Arts & Sciences - Vol. 8, Nr. 1 Jan 1983 Looking Ahead - Vol. 8, Nr. 2 Feb 1983 Standards (Apple Lisa reviewed) - Vol. 8, Nr. 3 Mar 1983 Mass Storage - Vol. 8, Nr. 5 May 1983 the Electronic Office - Vol. 9, Nr. 3 Mar 1984 Simulation - Vol. 9, Nr. 6 Jun 1984 Computers & Education (2x) - Vol. 9, Nr. 7 Jul 1984 Computers & Video - Vol. 9, Nr. 8 Aug 1984 Modula-2 - Vol. 9, Nr. 10 Sep 1984 Computer Graphics - Vol. 9, Nr. 11 Oct 1984 Databases - Vol. 9, Nr. 12 Nov 1984 New Chips - Vol. 9, Nr. 13 Dec 1984 Communications/Guide to Apple PCs Compute! - Vol. 8, Nr. 10 Oct 1986 Great New Computer Games Digital Research News (marketing flyer) - Vol. 4, Nr. 3 Jul 1984 Concurrent PC-DOS Home and Educational Computing! (VIC-20) - Introductory issue Summer 1981 Exploring the Rainbow Machine Custom Characters (2x) Olympia VIC-20 User Group Newsletter - Vol. 1, Nr. 5 Aug 1983 - Vol. 1, Nr. 9 Nov 1983 - Vol. 1, Nr. 10 Dec 1983 - Vol. 1, Nr. 11 Dec 1983 - Vol. 2, Nr. 12 Jan 1984 2x - Vol. 2, Nr. 13 Feb 1984 - Vol. 3, Nr. 28 Apr 1985 2x PC World - Vol. 7, Nr. 5 May 1989 Windows: the New PC Standard S-80 Bulletin and Classififed (TRS-80) - Vol. 2, Nr. 1 Jan 1980 Sync ("The Magazine for Sinclair ZX80 Users") - Vol. 1, Nr. 1 Jan/Feb 1981 (photocopy) - Vol. 1, Nr. 2 Mar/Apr 1981 (photocopy) Syntax ZX80 - Vol. 2, Nr. 9 Sep 1981 - Vol. 2, Nr. 10 Oct 1981 TRS-80 Microcomputer News - Vol. 4, Nr. 8 Sep 1982 Education, Color Planetarium Drop me email expressing interest. I have to move soon, so any of these which aren't spoken for will go in the trash. ok r. From lists at aussie.nu Mon May 28 08:02:48 2001 From: lists at aussie.nu (Lists) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: RSTS/E In-Reply-To: <009801c0e625$f3923e40$35809782@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> Message-ID: Running RSTS/E 7.0-7 on an emulator and can't get the serial terminal to accept logins. Keep getting 'No logins' over and over. I've run $UTILTY and 'SET LOGINS', but it still happens. Not being a RSTS/E admin in the past, I'm curious to know what else I need to do? Any ideas? From owad at applefritter.com Mon May 28 10:07:56 2001 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: Xerox Star In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20010528150756.32470@mail.earthlink.net> >Wish I'd seen that. Yeah, ViewPoint/Star/GlobalView (whatever you want to >call it) is still a long way ahead of what we've ended up with. I usually >use GVWin on the laptop for docs etc, they only get converted to Word format >if they have to be sent outside :-) Admittedly it's only become usable since >the hardware has been fast enough to support it - a 15 minute boot time for >VP on a 6085 is next to useless, but it boots in 20 seconds or so on a >400MHz laptop. I wish I could get hold of XDE (Tajo), that would sit very >nicely in another volume of my GVWin virtual disk... Is GVWin or GlobalView still available anywhere or does anybody have a copy for sale? I'd really like to take a look at it. Thanks, Tom Applefritter www.applefritter.com From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 28 09:49:31 2001 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival East 1.0 Message-ID: Vintage Computer Festival East 1.0 July 28th and 29th, 2001 Royal Plaza Hotel and Trade Center Marlborough, Massachusetts http://www.vintage.org/2001/east/ Mark you calendar! The first Vintage Computer Festival for the east coast of the United States is scheduled for the weekend of July 28th and 29th at the Best Western Royal Plaza Hotel and Trade Center in Marlborough, Massachusetts. The Vintage Computer Festival is a celebration of computers and their history. The event features speakers, a vintage computer exhibition, and a vintage computer marketplace. We showcase all different types of computers for all differents kinds of platforms in all different shapes and sizes. EXHIBIT YOUR VINTAGE COMPUTER Vintage Computer Collectors: we want you! Exhibit your favorite computer in the Vintage Computer Exhibition. First, Second and Third place prizes will be awarded to the Best of Show exhibits! For complete details on the VCF East 1.0 Exhibition, visit: http://www.vintage.org/2001/east/exhibit.php3 BUY/SELL/TRADE AT THE VINTAGE COMPUTER MARKETPLACE Do you have some vintage computer items you'd like to sell? Whether you rent a booth or sell on consignment, the Vintage Computer Marketplace is the premier venue for selling old computers and related items. If you would like to rent a booth or inquire about consignment rates, please send e-mail to for more information or visit: http://www.vintage.org/2001/east/vendor.php3 HOTEL INFORMATION The Vintage Computer Festival has reserved a room block with the Best Western Royal Plaza Hotel and Trade Center. The rate is $119.00/night for single or double occupancy. Please make your reservations by Friday, July 6, by calling +1 888 543 9500 (or +1 508 460 0700). Ask for the "Vintage Computer Festival" room rate. VOLUNTEERS NEEDED The VCF is currently recruiting volunteers for various odd jobs the VCF needs help with before and during VCF East. Volunteers get free admission and other goodies. If you would like to volunteer to help out with VCF East, please send a message to Sellam Ismail . TELL A FRIEND! TELL A FRIEND! TELL A FRIEND! We really hope to see you at the first VCF for the east coast! And remember, tell your friends!! Vintage Computer Festival East 1.0 July 28th and 29th, 2001 Royal Plaza Hotel and Trade Center Marlborough, Massachusetts http://www.vintage.org/2001/east/ Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon May 28 10:57:37 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: UK In-Reply-To: References: <3B0E821F.18590.244466F2@localhost> from "Hans Franke" at May 25, 1 04:02:39 pm Message-ID: <3B129191.5757.3420BD99@localhost> > > And what's about all that cool brit stuff ? > > Come on, I want an Amstrad PDA, and a Sinclair MK 14, > > and of course all the other sinclairs, and the BBCs > > and yea, I'm still missing any NASCOM 1 or 2 ... ther > > is so much great GB computers to get ... isn't it ? > Aren't those the _common_ British computers? What about the Tiger, the > Torch machines (both the BBC add-ons and the stand-alone workstations), > the ACW, the Gemini, the DAP, and so on? Those are a little harder to > find, gneerally :-) Well, if these are the commons, you are realy welcome to find some for me - Maybe to start with an MK14 and both of the Nascoms (Now, a Nasccom would be realy great, since 23 years ago I was quite close to buy one :)... Servus Hans -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From philpem at btinternet.com Mon May 28 11:28:31 2001 From: philpem at btinternet.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: Sharp CE-515P plotter pens Message-ID: <00a001c0e793$3c8f31c0$676b7ad5@tsunami> Hi, I've just been sent most of the manual for the CE-516P plotter (another Sharp with the same microcontroller/ESC codes) and in typical sod's law fashion, two of the pens have dried up. Anyone know of a (UK) source for these? What about the paper rolls? Thanks. -- Phil. http://www.philpem.f9.co.uk/ philpem@bigfoot.com From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon May 28 11:41:25 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: Cool brit stuff In-Reply-To: References: <200105252354.SAA88810@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3B129BD5.11706.3448D7D6@localhost> > > And what's about all that cool brit stuff ? > > Come on, I want an Amstrad PDA, and a Sinclair MK 14, > > and of course all the other sinclairs, and the BBCs > > and yea, I'm still missing any NASCOM 1 or 2 ... ther > > is so much great GB computers to get ... isn't it ? > > How many BBCs and 'other' Sinclairs would you like, Hans? :o) I've got one > or 2 spare.... Well, the 'other' Sinclairs would be the Amsclair models, like Specy 2, +2, +2A, +2B, +3,... These machines never made it in big numbers to Bavaria. The same is true for Amstrad machines like the P200 (?P20?). ANd for the BBCs, I may have to see what models are out there - AFAI can disdinguish them I don't have a Master System, and Master compact (which is the smaller version, isn't it). An Electron especialy with some peripherals (plus-xx etc.) would be nice. Also no RISC machines in my heap (alas a friend got several) Of course an Atom is also on the whish list, but here I know they are not common as flies. The same is true I guess for machines like Oric 1 / Athmos or the Jupiter ACE (BTW, I own about 5 or 6 tapes for the Jupiter ACE ... so if you got a machine and need some soft, I may copy them). Well, there's a lot of common British Machines I still miss - not to speak of the uncommon ones. I'd be happy if we can work out some trade. Servus Hans P.S.: A nice (at least with manuals) GB QL would be wellcome ... I have already a German, an Italian and a Spanish Unit. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon May 28 11:41:25 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: L@@K R@RE (Was: Microwave) In-Reply-To: References: <200105270059.TAA99319@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3B129BD5.32360.3448D7E5@localhost> > > I always wonder if the people that have something like "This is > > a RARE! TRS-80 Model 4 in perfect condition. You won't find > > another of these in this fine condition ANYWHERE! Don't let > > this one pass you by! It will sell high!" in their auctions > > are either stupid, deceitful, or clueless. Esp. when their > > auction is in the middle of about fifteen other items that are > > exactly the same. > I've a page dedicated to people like that on my museum site, which now > should be compatible with all graphic browsers according to the W3C. Lynx > I'm not sure about yet since I stopped working on a text-friendly version > when I lost my job! > It's at http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk under the 'WOW*RARE*L@@K' section > :) :)) Nice page ... although some of the picture descriptions are hard to understand ... is 'Bit like Dodo' nw uncomon in your eyes ? And what's about 'Rocking Horse shit' ? (Well, I own a SORD M5, and it's one of only 4 units ever 'officialy' imported to Germany, so I thought of it as somewhat uncommon). Gruss H. P.S.: I Like the 'Selling Sand to the Arabs' phrase :) -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Chris_Feeney at hillenbrand.com Mon May 28 11:37:44 2001 From: Chris_Feeney at hillenbrand.com (Chris_Feeney@hillenbrand.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #612 Message-ID: <05256A5A.005B595A.00@hillenbrand.com> remove From owad at applefritter.com Mon May 28 11:48:16 2001 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: Stuff to get rid of Message-ID: <20010528164816.18183@mail.earthlink.net> The modems are $5 shipped each, both for $8 shipped. The manual is $3 shipped. Take everything for $8 shipped, but with preference given to anybody who just wants the manual. The modems are untested/unknown condition. Cardinal 2400MNP modem, no power supply Microcom MacModem V.32, MNP Class 4, no power supply Manual for AdSCSI ST Series, SCSI Host Adapters Tom Applefritter www.applefritter.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 28 12:30:17 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: 0.156" edge connectors In-Reply-To: <001101c0e707$d2d16720$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at May 27, 1 05:50:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2400 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010528/1f9ca710/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 28 12:36:14 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: Locking RA81 heads In-Reply-To: <991021618.3b11ca3218028@email.ou.edu> from "Jeffrey S. Sharp" at May 27, 1 10:46:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1114 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010528/6523b16a/attachment.ksh From engdahl at cle.ab.com Mon May 28 13:00:16 2001 From: engdahl at cle.ab.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: Ehman 19" B&W Mac monitor, free Message-ID: <000f01c0e7a0$0dc3e720$39809782@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> Free to a good home. You pick it up or pay shipping. Located in Chardon, OH, about 20 miles E of Cleveland. Model number HMM-1900. I think this is the correct description of this monitor: http://www.griffintechnology.com/monitors/Ehman01.html It has a crisp paper-white screen. Input connector is a 9-pin D-shell with 6 pins populated. Although I was able to use this with a PC VGA card at 1024 X 768, it is *not* a multi-sync monitor. You can get it to lock by fiddling the adjustments in the back. When the machine boots or blue-screens at 640X480 you cannot see the picture. You can have the VGA adapter cable I built for this purpose if you want it. I don't know that much about MacIntoshes, so I can't tell you what machines it might work with. I needed a huge monitor for a computer I was building for a partially sighted neighbor, but then I scrounged a 21" color monitor, so I don't need this any more. -- Jonathan Engdahl Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer 24800 Tungsten Road Advanced Technology Euclid, OH 44117 USA Euclid Labs http://users.safeaccess.com/engdahl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010528/76e05d7d/attachment.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 28 12:50:29 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: UK In-Reply-To: <3B129191.5757.3420BD99@localhost> from "Hans Franke" at May 28, 1 05:57:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2093 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010528/5ad339fb/attachment.ksh From fernande at internet1.net Mon May 28 13:18:49 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: L@@K R@RE (Was: Microwave) References: <200105270059.TAA99319@opal.tseinc.com> <3B129BD5.32360.3448D7E5@localhost> Message-ID: <3B129689.E64D3BF3@internet1.net> I liked it too :-) I think the difficult to understand captions are English (as in England) slang. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Hans Franke wrote: > :)) > > Nice page ... although some of the picture descriptions are hard > to understand ... is 'Bit like Dodo' nw uncomon in your eyes ? > And what's about 'Rocking Horse shit' ? (Well, I own a SORD M5, > and it's one of only 4 units ever 'officialy' imported to Germany, > so I thought of it as somewhat uncommon). > > Gruss > H. > > P.S.: I Like the 'Selling Sand to the Arabs' phrase :) From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon May 28 13:31:01 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: UK In-Reply-To: References: <3B129191.5757.3420BD99@localhost> from "Hans Franke" at May 28, 1 05:57:37 pm Message-ID: <3B12B585.12284.34AD2F36@localhost> > > > > And what's about all that cool brit stuff ? > > > > Come on, I want an Amstrad PDA, and a Sinclair MK 14, > > > > and of course all the other sinclairs, and the BBCs > > > > and yea, I'm still missing any NASCOM 1 or 2 ... ther > > > > is so much great GB computers to get ... isn't it ? > > > Aren't those the _common_ British computers? What about the Tiger, the > > > Torch machines (both the BBC add-ons and the stand-alone workstations), > > > the ACW, the Gemini, the DAP, and so on? Those are a little harder to > > > find, gneerally :-) > > Well, if these are the commons, you are realy welcome to > > find some for me - Maybe to start with an MK14 and both > > of the Nascoms (Now, a Nasccom would be realy great, since > > 23 years ago I was quite close to buy one :)... > I meant 'common' relatively... There are a lot more MK14s out there than > DAPs, for example :-) :) > I have never thought of the MK14 as particularly rare, and I certainly > don't think it is particulalry desirable. I got one way back when it was > in production. It taught me a lot of things about how not to design > microcomputer systems (hint : a 74175 is a latch, a 74157 is a mux. Guess > what the MK14 uses to latch the data for the display....). I have the > remains of mine, which died expensively when the 7805 went s/c (Dear old > Sinclair didn't bother with things like heatsinks....) One day I must get > it working again..... At least most parts are still easy to get ... I personaly think of the MK14 as a nice example for a minimalistic kit like a lot similar machines. And unlike most other it had some aperance - at least on the island. > Many of the machines I mentioned are very hard to find in my experience (I > am still looking for an ACW, for example, and don't expect to find one > soon...). Things like the Oric (both 1 and Atmos) and the Jupiter Ace are > a lot more common, although still hard to find. Incidentally, there is a > 3" disk drive for the Oric, which is presumably non-trivial to get... Well, I have tapes for the Jupiter ... but no computer to try them :( > The Gemini, BTW, is essentailly a super-grade Nascom. It uses the same > bus, but with extra address lines (there's a little bit of TTL RAM on the > CPU card to implement a simple pager/MMU). In general they ran CP/M, and > some models have a SASI-interfaced hard disk, and even a (custom) network > interface. Which is an easy way to do it - at some point around 1980 I did a similar thing for my KIM system - A 64 Byte RAM to fill in the first 16K of mem (except the 1 K) wit a page out of 64K (well, I never installed more than 16 K into the memory extension :)... Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon May 28 13:39:31 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: AC adapters Message-ID: I have some AC adapters I bought in a lot, I gave $1 each for them and pulled what I need from them. Input is 120VAC 60hz 800ma and output on a standard round/tubular "coax" connector is 16VAC, 4A. Fused with a 5A/250V fuse built in and changeable if blown. They're bricks with about 3 ft of wire to the 2 prong AC plug and about 3 ft to the coax adapter. Brick measures about 3" wide, 3.5" deep and 2.5" high. Made by Eltron with the part number 808061-001. I have 4 I need to get rid of at $1.00 each plus applicable postage. They weigh 3 lbs each. Someone can have them all or just 1, 2, etc. I'm in central KY in zip 42726 in the event someone wishes to calc shipping. Drop me a note direct at rhblake@bigfoot.com From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon May 28 14:20:46 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: DEC RXV21 with 5.25 floppy In-Reply-To: <10105272215.ZM4236@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <200105281920.VAA14909@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 27 May, Pete Turnbull wrote: > If yours is a copy of the GR RXV21 then it should not only be able to > format disks, BINGO! tic, tic, tic, tic, ... Can you hear this? It is the MXV21 formating a disk. :-) simply do a d/p/w 20001E78 109 d/p/w 20001E7A 92 at the VAX console and the drive starts to format. OK. The next step is to write data to the medium and read them back. [a bit later] Ahhh, reading / writing and DMA from / to memory does work also. :-))) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon May 28 14:37:25 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: WARNING! OT: Humor -- How it all began..... Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010528153634.00a050d0@mailhost.intellistar.net> >Subject: How it all began!! > > > > An old, bearded shepherd with a crooked staff walked up to a stone > > pulpit and said, "And lo, it came to pass that the trader by the > > name of > > > > Abraham Com did take unto himself a young wife by the name of Dot. > > > > And Dot Com was a comely woman, broad of shoulder and long of leg. > > Indeed, she had been called Amazon Dot Com.. And she said unto > > Abraham, her husband, "Why doth thou travel far, from town to town, > > with > > thy goods when thou can trade without ever leaving thy tent?" > > > > And Abraham did look at her as though she were several saddle bags > > short > > of a camel load, but simply said, "How, Dear?" And Dot replied, "I > > will place drums in all the towns and drums in between to send > > messages > > saying what you have for sale and they will reply telling you which > > hath > > > > the best price. And the sale can be made on the drums and delivery > > made > > by Uriah's Pony Stable (UPS)." > > > > Abraham thought long and decided he would let Dot have her way with > > the > > drums. And the drums rang out and were an immediate success. > > Abraham sold all the goods he had, at the top price, without ever > > moving > > from his tent. But this success did arouse envy. > > > > A man named Maccabia did secret himself inside Abraham's drum and > > was > > accused of insider trading. And the young man did take to Dot > > Com's trading as doth the greedy horsefly take to camel dung. They > > were > > called Nomadic Ecclesiastical Rich Dominican Siderites, or NERDS > > for short. > > > > And lo, the land was so feverish with joy at the new riches and the > > deafening sound of drums, that no one noticed that the real riches > > were > > going > > to the drum maker, one Brother William of Gates, who bought up every > > > > drum company in the land. And indeed did insist on making drums that > > > > would work only if you bought Brother Gates' drumsticks. > > > > And Dot did say, "Oh, Abraham, what we have started is being taken > > over > > by others." And as Abraham looked out over the Bay of Ezekiel, or as > > > > it came to be known "eBay," he said, "we need a name that reflects > > what > > we are," and Dot replied, "Young Ambitious Hebrew Owner > > Operators." "Whoopee!", said Abraham. "No, YAHOO!" said Dot Com. and > > > > that is how it all began. > > > > It wasn't Al Gore after all. > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 28 14:48:18 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: UK In-Reply-To: <3B12B585.12284.34AD2F36@localhost> from "Hans Franke" at May 28, 1 08:31:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2193 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010528/2c6f9035/attachment.ksh From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon May 28 15:00:25 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: AC adapters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The first line should read that I bought a lot of 12 and pulled what I needed from the lot and it leaves 4 remaining that I need to get rid of. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Russ Blakeman > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 1:40 PM > To: Classic Computer List > Subject: AC adapters > > > I have some AC adapters I bought in a lot, I gave $1 each for them and > pulled what I need from them. Input is 120VAC 60hz 800ma and output on a > standard round/tubular "coax" connector is 16VAC, 4A. Fused with a 5A/250V > fuse built in and changeable if blown. They're bricks with about 3 ft of > wire to the 2 prong AC plug and about 3 ft to the coax adapter. Brick > measures about 3" wide, 3.5" deep and 2.5" high. Made by Eltron with the > part number 808061-001. > > I have 4 I need to get rid of at $1.00 each plus applicable postage. They > weigh 3 lbs each. Someone can have them all or just 1, 2, etc. I'm in > central KY in zip 42726 in the event someone wishes to calc shipping. > > Drop me a note direct at rhblake@bigfoot.com > From optimus at canit.se Mon May 28 07:38:31 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: Digital AXP 150 questions- In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1032.548T1550T8184711optimus@canit.se> Greg Linder skrev: > I picked up two Digital DECpc AXP150's from a buddy. He pulled the >ram, but they still have everything else. I pulled some old simms from >some other dumpseter trips, but can't seem to get anything to come >up. When I power them on, the LED indicators either tell me there is >problem in RAM bank one, or else all LED's on when I power it on with no >RAM in it. Does anyone have any of these things in an operating state? Can >anyone offer any advise on gettin these up? I have always wanted an Alpha >to run VMS on, and I think these will do it. Any advise? Thank you very >much! Are these classic now? I thought it would be at some five years before they were on topic. Anyway, what you need are ECC SIMMs, the kind with advanced error-checking and correcting abilities. You should still get some output on the serial port if it's anything like my 166PCI. Anyone know a cheap source for ECC SIMMs? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Amiga 4000/040 25MHz/44MB/20GB RetinaBLTZ3/VLab/FastlaneZ3/Ariadne/Toccata From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon May 28 15:57:40 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: Cool brit stuff In-Reply-To: "Hans Franke" "Re: Cool brit stuff" (May 28, 18:41) References: <200105252354.SAA88810@opal.tseinc.com> <3B129BD5.11706.3448D7D6@localhost> Message-ID: <10105282157.ZM5670@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 28, 18:41, Hans Franke wrote: > Also no RISC machines in my heap (alas a > friend got several) I have an Archimedes A540 (badged R260, but it has a third-party SCSI card so won't boot RISC iX, only RISC OS) which I might be persuaded to part with. Maybe. > Of course an Atom is also on the whish > list, but here I know they are not common as flies. I'm still looking for the lower half of the case for mine. > P.S.: A nice (at least with manuals) GB QL would be > wellcome ... I have already a German, an Italian > and a Spanish Unit. I have a faulty GB one -- looks fine, just doesn't boot (also needs work on the keyboard membrane). All the socketed chips (ULAs, ROMs, processor etc) are fine. You can have it for cost of shipping/postage. I don't think I have a spare manual, though. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon May 28 16:06:35 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: DEC RXV21 with 5.25 floppy In-Reply-To: jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de "Re: DEC RXV21 with 5.25 floppy" (May 28, 21:20) References: <200105281920.VAA14909@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <10105282206.ZM5729@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On 27 May, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > If yours is a copy of the GR RXV21 then it should not only be able to > > format disks, > BINGO! > tic, tic, tic, tic, ... > Can you hear this? > It is the MXV21 formating a disk. :-) :-) > simply do a > d/p/w 20001E78 109 > d/p/w 20001E7A 92 > at the VAX console and the drive starts to format. OK. The next step is > to write data to the medium and read them back. > [a bit later] > Ahhh, reading / writing and DMA from / to memory does work also. :-))) Excellent! If you need any more info from the GR manual, just ask. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon May 28 17:43:04 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: 3.5" MFM hard disk In-Reply-To: <10105282206.ZM5729@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <200105281920.VAA14909@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <10105282206.ZM5729@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: Would anyone have a Kalok KL 320, or comparible, 3.5" hard disk they would be willing to part with? I don't have a lot of trouble coming up with the 5-1/4" MFM drives but have never had much luck coming up with the 3.5" drives. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From sipke at wxs.nl Mon May 28 18:18:13 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: 3.5" MFM hard disk References: <200105281920.VAA14909@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de><10105282206.ZM5729@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <006101c0e7cc$7881efe0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Is that the 40MB type? I've got 2 of them and they propably OK but sending it by mail ???? Would they survive? If so, they would be one of the most rugged specimen of KALOK ..... Living even after all these years and then surviving an emigration to another continent. Wow! Kalok drives were not known to be very reliable. In Holland we always joked that; "A Kalok-drive is the only drive that is named after the sound it makes..... .......................................KALOK! KALOK KALOK! What amount if money would be required for a parcel delivery of say 1 Kilo (2 Drives ~ a pound each?) Holland=> US? Regards, Sipke de Wal --------------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx --------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Hellige To: Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 12:43 AM Subject: 3.5" MFM hard disk > Would anyone have a Kalok KL 320, or comparible, 3.5" hard > disk they would be willing to part with? I don't have a lot of > trouble coming up with the 5-1/4" MFM drives but have never had much > luck coming up with the 3.5" drives. > > Jeff > -- > Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > From witchy at vorbis.demon.co.uk Mon May 28 18:18:14 2001 From: witchy at vorbis.demon.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: DEC AXP150 In-Reply-To: <200105280150.UAA06953@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: > Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 17:54:07 -0500 (CDT) > From: Greg Linder > Subject: Digital AXP 150 questions- > > I picked up two Digital DECpc AXP150's from a buddy. He pulled the > ram, but they still have everything else. I pulled some old simms from > some other dumpseter trips, but can't seem to get anything to come > up. When I power them on, the LED indicators either tell me there is > problem in RAM bank one, or else all LED's on when I power it on with no > RAM in it. Does anyone have any of these things in an operating state? Can > anyone offer any advise on gettin these up? I have always wanted an Alpha > to run VMS on, and I think these will do it. Any advise? Thank you very > much! Hi Greg, I've got one complete with books etc, and I also have the Systems and Options catalogues that they were featured in. If you don't get any joy elsewhere contact me off-list and I'll get the info for you cheers adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the Online Computer Museum 0:OK, 0:1 From edick at idcomm.com Mon May 28 18:44:48 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: 3.5" MFM hard disk References: <200105281920.VAA14909@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <10105282206.ZM5729@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <001b01c0e7d0$2ec12e80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've had a couple or 3 3-1/2" RODIME drives for quite some time. The configuration 320 cyl, 4 Heads comes to mind for two of them, but I don't remember the configuration of the other one. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 4:43 PM Subject: 3.5" MFM hard disk > Would anyone have a Kalok KL 320, or comparible, 3.5" hard > disk they would be willing to part with? I don't have a lot of > trouble coming up with the 5-1/4" MFM drives but have never had much > luck coming up with the 3.5" drives. > > Jeff > -- > Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Mon May 28 18:54:41 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: VAX 4000/300 Message-ID: <009901c0e7d1$910ddd80$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> I've just been offered one of these. I was thinking it was a size similar to the 3100 I have sitting on the VAXstation II, how far off am I? This past weekend I added a beige TI 99 with expansion box and printer, an Atari 800, a zenith easy PC, and I broke down and paid $4 for a Northern Telecom display phone. And got a lead on a TRS80 model 1. Still looking for a S-100. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 28 19:09:37 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: VAX 4000/300 In-Reply-To: VAX 4000/300 (Mike Kenzie) References: <009901c0e7d1$910ddd80$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <15122.59585.345104.785686@phaduka.neurotica.com> On May 28, Mike Kenzie wrote: > I've just been offered one of these. I was thinking it was > a size similar to the 3100 I have sitting on the VAXstation > II, how far off am I? Pretty far off. The 4000/300 is in a chassis about the size of a small end table. Definitely a nice machine, though; I'd recommend grabbing it. Contrary to popular belief, they don't pull that much power, and are relatively quiet. -Dave McGuire From red at bears.org Mon May 28 19:37:55 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: Offered: classic manuals Message-ID: Part two in the on-going saga: Apple Computer - Apple II "The DOS Manual". 1981. 200pp. Commodore Business Machines - Commodore 64 Programmer's Reference Guide. 1st ed, 5th printing. 1983. 490pp. - Commodore 64 User's Guide. 1st ed, 5th printing. 1983. 170pp. - Commodore 64 User's Manual. 1984. 210pp. - Commodore C128-40, B128-80, B256-80 User's Guide. 1st ed, 1st printing. 1983. 120pp. - Compute!'s First Book of VIC. 1982. 215pp. - Disk System User Reference Guide (2031, 404, 8050, CBM hard disk). 1982. 100pp. - Personal Computing on the VIC-20: a friendly computer guide. 5th ed, 2nd printing. 1982. 165pp. (3x) - User's Manual for CBM 5.25" Dual Floppy Disk Drives (2040, 3040, 4040, 8050). 4th printing. 1983. 100pp. - VIC-20 Cartridge Development; Paul Higginbottom, Commodore Canada. pp. 121-123, photocopied. "Power-Up Activity"; "BASIC Programs in a Cartridge"; "Cartridge Standards". - VIC-20 Programmer's Reference Guide. 1st ed, 2nd or 4th printing. 1983. 290pp. (3x) - VIC-1515 Graphic Printer User's Manual. 1st. ed. 1981. 40pp. - VIC-1541 User's Manual. 2nd Ed. 1982. 60pp. Data General Corporation - Nova Minicomputers Instruction Reference Card. 1972. Photocopied. (2x) Silicon Graphics, Inc. - Indigo Magic Desktop: Understanding the Basics. 1994. 13pp. - Indy Workstation Owner's Guide. Mar 1995. 250pp. Tandy Corporation - TRS-80 Level II BASIC Reference Manual. 2nd ed. 1979. ca. 100pp. (2x) ok r. From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon May 28 20:39:17 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: 3.5" MFM hard disk In-Reply-To: <006101c0e7cc$7881efe0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> References: <200105281920.VAA14909@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <10105282206.ZM5729@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010528183856.00a16770@mail.zipcon.net> the 320 is a 20 MB, ST225 workalike... At 01:18 AM 5/29/01 +0200, you wrote: >Is that the 40MB type? > >I've got 2 of them and they propably OK but sending it >by mail ???? Would they survive? > >If so, they would be one of the most rugged specimen of KALOK >..... Living even after all these years and then surviving an emigration to >another continent. Wow! > >Kalok drives were not known to be very reliable. In Holland >we always joked that; "A Kalok-drive is the only drive >that is named after the sound it makes..... >.......................................KALOK! KALOK KALOK! > >What amount if money would be required for a parcel delivery >of say 1 Kilo (2 Drives ~ a pound each?) Holland=> US? > >Regards, > >Sipke de Wal >--------------------------------------------------------- >http://xgistor.ath.cx >--------------------------------------------------------- > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Jeff Hellige >To: >Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 12:43 AM >Subject: 3.5" MFM hard disk > > > > Would anyone have a Kalok KL 320, or comparible, 3.5" hard > > disk they would be willing to part with? I don't have a lot of > > trouble coming up with the 5-1/4" MFM drives but have never had much > > luck coming up with the 3.5" drives. > > > > Jeff > > -- > > Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: > > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From tcmail at ix.netcom.com Mon May 28 20:59:42 2001 From: tcmail at ix.netcom.com (Campbell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: you vs. museums Message-ID: <3B130289.C9B5B858@ix.netcom.com> Just a note from a museum person who stumbled upon your discussion from March '01...too bad you have this antagonistic attitude - you could probably share resources with a local museum and do a lot of good. They would love the information you could provide (and maybe do some public good with?), and they might have resources (including potential access to grant money, etc.) that you would also enjoy. It doesn't seem like them offering someone a tax incentive should be such a problem in that case... Best wishes, Tim From vcf at siconic.com Mon May 28 20:09:25 2001 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: Apple Turnover? Message-ID: I have here an ISA card labelled "APPLE TURNOVER" on the lower inner part of the board (on the inside of the edge connector" and "(C) 1984 VERTEX". It has what looks to be a standard floppy edge connector/pin connector (either can be used). I'm thinking (and hoping) this is a card that allows one to read Apple ][ floppies with a standard PC drive on the PC. Anyone ever heard of this? Am I right? Does it require software? If so, anyone got it? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon May 28 21:12:05 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: 3.5" MFM hard disk In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010528183856.00a16770@mail.zipcon.net> References: <200105281920.VAA14909@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <10105282206.ZM5729@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20010528183856.00a16770@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: >the 320 is a 20 MB, ST225 workalike... According to the various sources I've been able to find, it has 615 cylinders and 4 heads and is indeed a 20meg drive. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon May 28 21:14:45 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: 3.5" MFM hard disk In-Reply-To: <001b01c0e7d0$2ec12e80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <200105281920.VAA14909@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <10105282206.ZM5729@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <001b01c0e7d0$2ec12e80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: >I've had a couple or 3 3-1/2" RODIME drives for quite some time. The >configuration 320 cyl, 4 Heads comes to mind for two of them, but I don't >remember the configuration of the other one. The Kalok is 615 cylinders and 4 heads. It's currently connected to a converter board, similar to the ones that Adaptec used to make for connecting MFM drives up to various other interfaces. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 28 21:30:54 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: Apple Turnover? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 May 2001, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I have here an ISA card labelled "APPLE TURNOVER" on the lower inner part > of the board (on the inside of the edge connector" and "(C) 1984 VERTEX". > It has what looks to be a standard floppy edge connector/pin connector > (either can be used). > I'm thinking (and hoping) this is a card that allows one to read Apple ][ > floppies with a standard PC drive on the PC. > Anyone ever heard of this? Am I right? Does it require software? If so, > anyone got it? Heard of it?? When I closed my office, I got rid of several hundred boxes, manuals, and defective boards. It connects between an XT floppy controller and drive. You need to use both the edge connector and the dual row header, just like with a CP Option board. Some drives work better than others. Tandons worked OK, Teacs were harder to make work. There were also some boards that were defective. Vertex commissioned one fellow to design and build the hardware. He felt cheated. They commisioned another fellow to write the low level sector routines. He felt cheated. They commissioned me to write the high level routines. I felt cheated. At the time that they went under, they owed me enough money (for that and when they distributed Xeno-Copy) that I could have bought a house outright in silicon valley. The software that I wrote handled reading and writing Apple-DOS, Apple CP/M, PRO-DOS, and Apple P-system. I'll try to locate a copy and put a disk in one of your boxes. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From louiss at gate.net Mon May 28 21:32:30 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: Apple Turnover? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200105290232.WAA00954@mclean.mail.mindspring.net> On Mon, 28 May 2001 18:09:25 -0700 (PDT), Vintage Computer Festival wrote: # #I have here an ISA card labelled "APPLE TURNOVER" on the lower inner part #of the board (on the inside of the edge connector" and "(C) 1984 VERTEX". # #It has what looks to be a standard floppy edge connector/pin connector #(either can be used). # #I'm thinking (and hoping) this is a card that allows one to read Apple ][ #floppies with a standard PC drive on the PC. # #Anyone ever heard of this? Am I right? Does it require software? If so, #anyone got it? # No, you are wrong. This card is the interface to the Vertex Vortex Convection Oven. Special data base software accesses a particular recipe, and then sends the cooking instructions to the Vertex Vortex. Apple turnovers were a specialty of the oven, which was never commercially successful. The oven had a robotic arm to accomplish the flipping of the turnover, but the arm had a tendency to get stuck in a programming loop, which would eventually flip the entire oven off the counter. Sorry, Sellam Louis From fernande at internet1.net Mon May 28 22:34:32 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: VAX 4000/300 References: <009901c0e7d1$910ddd80$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3B1318C8.7C908AFC@internet1.net> Oooo.... I've tried getting one. I saw a pair on Ebay, not too far away from me. They had a high starting bid, and nobody placed a bid. I emailed them to try and buy them at a lower price, but they relisted them and didn't reply. Oh well. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Mike Kenzie wrote: > > I've just been offered one of these. I was thinking it was > a size similar to the 3100 I have sitting on the VAXstation > II, how far off am I? > > This past weekend I added a beige TI 99 with expansion box > and printer, an Atari 800, a zenith easy PC, and I broke > down and paid $4 for a Northern Telecom display phone. > And got a lead on a TRS80 model 1. Still looking for a > S-100. From dittman at dittman.net Mon May 28 23:02:42 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: VAX 4000/300 In-Reply-To: <3B1318C8.7C908AFC@internet1.net> from "Chad Fernandez" at May 28, 2001 11:34:32 PM Message-ID: <200105290402.f4T42ga00515@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Oooo.... I've tried getting one. I saw a pair on Ebay, not too far away > from me. They had a high starting bid, and nobody placed a bid. I > emailed them to try and buy them at a lower price, but they relisted > them and didn't reply. Oh well. I saw those, but I only wanted one, so I didn't bid. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 28 23:40:55 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: Apple Turnover? In-Reply-To: <200105290232.WAA00954@mclean.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 May 2001, Louis Schulman wrote: > No, you are wrong. This card is the interface to the Vertex Vortex > Convection Oven. Special data base software accesses a particular > recipe, and then sends the cooking instructions to the Vertex Vortex. > Apple turnovers were a specialty of the oven, which was never > commercially successful. The oven had a robotic arm to accomplish the > flipping of the turnover, but the arm had a tendency to get stuck in a > programming loop, which would eventually flip the entire oven off the > counter. > Sorry, Sellam Thank you. That explains a lot. I never saw the source code for the low-level (sector) routines, and the docs that Vertex supplied me with were wrong about register usage and, of course, which registers were or were not preserved. Now it turns out that we were being asked to do disk format conversion with an oven controller! The docs had some doodles on them of slices of pie (labeled "sector"), but the 300 RPM rotational speed of the turntable, and the lack of a head-load solenoid could account for the production of cobbler out of what should have been pies. BTW, the later ones were simply called "Turnover" after Apple's trademark people came down on Vertex over "Apple Turnover". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From foo at siconic.com Mon May 28 23:47:47 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: Apple Turnover? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 May 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > Heard of it?? When I closed my office, I got rid of several hundred > boxes, manuals, and defective boards. Oh yeah. That explains where I got it from. Somehow I knew you'd know what it was ;) > I'll try to locate a copy and put a disk in one of your boxes. Cool, thanks. Sometime this week for sure as I have some stuff to pick up in the Berkeley and Richmond areas. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue May 29 01:46:03 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:49 2005 Subject: DEC RXV21 with 5.25 floppy In-Reply-To: <10105282206.ZM5729@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <200105290646.IAA17490@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 28 May, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Excellent! If you need any more info from the GR manual, just ask. I have the doc for the DEC RX211. Are there any further differences between the DEC and the GR Controller? -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From Alan.Pearson at cramersystems.com Tue May 29 03:20:35 2001 From: Alan.Pearson at cramersystems.com (Alan Pearson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: PERQs and software preservation (was: Xerox Star) Message-ID: On Fri, 25 May 2001, R. D. Davis wrote: > In what way is it ahead of X11 combined with xterms? Graphical-only > user interfaces are useful for those who don't do much wiht their > computers, such as those with a few data dozen files here and there, > who just access the 'net, use a word processor or spreadsheet now and > then, etc. - such as the typical biz-'droid. Yup, that's exactly what VP was for, and IMHO it did it way better than the current set of tools for the masses (Office etc). It kept you well away from the guts of the machine, there wasn't a command line option at all - everything that was locally installed was somewhere in the "Directory" icon, which you opened up and used the click-COPY-click mouse action to put it on your desktop to use. Piece of cake. > However, anyone who has lots of data files, programs, scripts, etc. > needs something more useful that allows more reasonable, e.g.quicker, > access to their data. Absolutely, if you were a developer you'd almost never use VP unless you had to put together a fancy-looking presentation or report for the boss :-) All my development work was done in the Tajo (XDE) environment where I had access to a command line (well, as many as I wanted), file tool, editor, and the usual slew of compiler/binder/debugger tools. On top of that there was a hefty fileserver somewhere on the West Coast where we could get hold of the "Hacks" tools. Lovely :) > the PERQs themselves were great improvements over what I've seen of > the Xerox systems - truly hackers systems were, and are, the PERQs. There isn't much difference between my T2 running POS and a Dbox running XDE, they have the same basic set of tools and utils. Obviously the PERQ tools are for Pascal and the Dbox's are for Mesa, and the PERQ UI looks like an XDE Executive full-screened :-) Heck, even the directory names follow the "{volume}sub>file.ext" format :-) > Why Word format? Aren't you able to convert it to LaTeX format which you > can then use something useful like Emacs with? Ha ha, Word goes to the sad people who occasionally ask me to put stuff together for them. They can only handle Word, and the customer is always right ;-) Emacs? Nah, I used to use it at AT&T a long time back but got fed up of never having it installed as standard on each of the various development machines I had to use. In the end I was forced to get to grips with vi simply because it was on every development box, and after that I've never really seen the point in trying to re-learn all the emacs stuff. As for LaTeX, that was another thing I never got to grips with. I looked at it once about 10ish years ago and took a sharp step back when it seemed to be yet another bunch of *roff-style formatting macros. Again at AT&T we had to do all our docs on a VT220 using "memorandum macros" which I found hard to get used to after my spell at Xerox using the Star. Never really liked seeing all that clutter in my documents, and couldn't be bothered to run it all through a formatter to see what an approximation of the end result would look like on a VT220. I know I'm just asking to be flamed here, but I never saw the point of the whole TeX thing :-) Al. From at258 at osfn.org Tue May 29 06:56:51 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: Apple Turnover? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I preferred the later Cheese Puff variant. On Mon, 28 May 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Mon, 28 May 2001, Louis Schulman wrote: > > No, you are wrong. This card is the interface to the Vertex Vortex > > Convection Oven. Special data base software accesses a particular > > recipe, and then sends the cooking instructions to the Vertex Vortex. > > Apple turnovers were a specialty of the oven, which was never > > commercially successful. The oven had a robotic arm to accomplish the > > flipping of the turnover, but the arm had a tendency to get stuck in a > > programming loop, which would eventually flip the entire oven off the > > counter. > > Sorry, Sellam > > Thank you. > That explains a lot. > I never saw the source code for the low-level (sector) routines, and the > docs that Vertex supplied me with were wrong about register usage and, > of course, which registers were or were not preserved. > Now it turns out that we were being asked to do disk format conversion > with an oven controller! > > The docs had some doodles on them of slices of pie (labeled "sector"), but > the 300 RPM rotational speed of the turntable, and the lack of a head-load > solenoid could account for the production of cobbler out of what should > have been pies. > > > BTW, the later ones were simply called "Turnover" after Apple's trademark > people came down on Vertex over "Apple Turnover". > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue May 29 08:10:53 2001 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: 3.5" MFM hard disk Message-ID: <20010529.083636.-402829.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Mon, 28 May 2001 22:14:45 -0400 Jeff Hellige writes: > >I've had a couple or 3 3-1/2" RODIME drives for quite some time. > The configuration 320 cyl, 4 Heads comes to mind for two of them, but I > don't remember the configuration of the other one. > > The Kalok is 615 cylinders and 4 heads. It's currently > connected to a converter board, similar to the ones that Adaptec > used to make for connecting MFM drives up to various other interfaces. Yeah? Which make/model? If it *were* Adaptec, I'd bet it's an ACB-4000, in which case it's MFM<->SCSI (sortof). What sort of machine is it going into? Jeff ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Tue May 29 08:48:04 2001 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: Need help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 25 May 2001 19:12:36 +0100 (BST) Tony Duell wrote: > [Williams tube memory] > > > The memory was also the only output device in the "Baby", > > since the CRTs had normal phosphor coating and the bits > > glowed. Programs would halt, and the results would be read > > from the CRT face. > > Are you sure? I thought there was a metal electrode over the front of the > CRT, and the signal picked up from that was fed back to refresh the > charge image on the CRT face (yes, this is a simplification). That's how I understand it, yes. > So if you moved the electrode to see the screen, you'd lose the memory > contents. Absolutely. There's a photo of a dual Williams tube module in one of the books, hinged open in just this way. > I can well believe having a second CRT coupled up, which had the same > deflection signals, and in which the beam intensity was controlled by the > amplified singal from the pickup electrode. That would display the memory > contents as an array of dots. I think that must be how it worked. However, I've never seen this clearly and completely explained! There's a CRT lying in one of the racks in the middle of the photos of the "Baby", above the input switch bank. The actual store is in another rack, though. > And VCR97s [1] were not exactly uncommon, > adding a second one would not have been a problem It would have been quite easy to wire up, yes. > [1] Valve Cathode Ray 97 IIRC. A very common radar CRT from WW2. Common > enough that _I_ have one in the junk box. Since you have one, could you tell me if it's electrostatically deflected? I presume it is, making it resemble an oscilloscope tube more than, say, a TV picture tube? -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue May 29 08:56:17 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: 3.5" MFM hard disk Message-ID: <01May29.100851edt.119063@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >> The Kalok is 615 cylinders and 4 heads. It's currently >> connected to a converter board, similar to the ones that Adaptec >> used to make for connecting MFM drives up to various other interfaces. > >Yeah? Which make/model? If it *were* Adaptec, I'd bet it's an ACB-4000, >in which case it's MFM<->SCSI (sortof). What sort of machine is it >going into? The board is from Sun Remarketing and is labled as being manufactured by them. It is in an Apple Lisa and converts the signals from the external parallel port to those of the MFM drive. The converter and hard disk are mounted directly above the floppy drive internally with a ribbon cable going out the back of the case to the external port. I'll look at it again when I get home and post specifics on it. Unfortunately, I don't have any documentation on the hard disk setup. I've had a few of the Adaptec boards, including one mounted in an Atari SH-204 hard disk, converting from the ST's interface to the MFM drive mounted in the enclosure. Jeff From edick at idcomm.com Tue May 29 09:38:58 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: 3.5" MFM hard disk References: <20010529.083636.-402829.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <002501c0e84d$18b7d300$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> That's not necessarily the case! I recently got a SCSI box, originally designed as an attachment for a MAC, that had a 3-1/2" drive (the one the configuration of which I don't recall) on the order of 40 MB, but which had a board that I remember as NOT being an ACB-4000, though it was of the 40xx series. It was, IIRC, an ADAPTEC board, but an RLL board and, oddly enough, of a 3-1/2" form factor. I'll look at it and let you know what it is. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey l Kaneko" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 7:10 AM Subject: Re: 3.5" MFM hard disk > > > > > used to make for connecting MFM drives up to various other interfaces. > > Yeah? Which make/model? If it *were* Adaptec, I'd bet it's an ACB-4000, > in which case it's MFM<->SCSI (sortof). What sort of machine is it > going into? > > > Jeff > > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue May 29 09:41:56 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: OT: Widnows Checkbox Message-ID: <01May29.105423edt.119061@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Got prompted with a nice Windows checkbox today while upgrading an NT workstation to Service Pack 6a...it said: "Always trust content from Microsoft Corporation?" Yeah right....that little choice remained unchecked... Jeff From amichael at nortelnetworks.com Tue May 29 09:48:38 2001 From: amichael at nortelnetworks.com (Arlen Michaels) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: 8008 book identification Message-ID: Could you be referring to "Microcomputer Design" by Donald P Martin and published by his company, Martin Research in Northbrook, Illinois? It has a black cover with a photograph on the front of integrated circuits lit from below. A large format squarish paperback about an inch thick. I don't see an ISBN listed, but the Library of Congress Catalog number is given as 76-1530. It is full of practical application advice about the 8008, and includes stuff about the "new" 8080 too. The last chapter describes various "minimal microcomputer" circuits and Martin's own product line of Modular Micros such as the MIKE models 3 and 4. I have the 2nd edition published in 1976, and it is a treasure. Arlen Michaels > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Kearney [SMTP:jim@jkearney.com] > Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 11:53 AM > To: classiccmp > Subject: 8008 book identification > > Forgive me if this is common knowledge, but I haven't been able to dig up > any information with a search engine, probably due to my very vague search > terms... > > Around 1974-6 I had a book that covered 8008 system design, in a kind of > cookbook fashion. I'm thinking it might have been published by Ohio > Scientific, but that's far from reliable. As I recall, the cover was > black and it was relatively thick. I built a 8008 system using it (wire > wrapped, with 256 bytes of RAM), but book and computer have both vanished > since then. I'd like to find another copy for nostalgia's sake. > > Does anyone have any clues? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010529/d055f745/attachment.html From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue May 29 10:13:20 2001 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: Core Memory ID In-Reply-To: <200105270338.XAA23540@drs-esg.com> Message-ID: <20010529151320.51466.qmail@web9505.mail.yahoo.com> --- David Gesswein wrote: > > From: Eric Dittman > > I was looking around my box of old boards and > > found a core memory set I've had since about > > '84. > > > > The handles also has "W025" on them. Does it look like this... http://www.penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/pdp8/pix/coreassy.jpg If so, it's for a PDP-8/L or PDP-8/i -ethan ===== Visit "The Seventh Continent" http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue May 29 11:40:08 2001 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: 3.5" MFM hard disk Message-ID: <20010529.114008.-426737.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Tue, 29 May 2001 09:56:17 -0400 "Jeff Hellige" writes: > The board is from Sun Remarketing and is labled as being > manufactured by them. It is in an Apple Lisa and converts the > signals from the external parallel port to those of the MFM drive. > The converter and hard disk are mounted directly above the floppy > drive internally with a ribbon cable going out the back of the > case to the external port. I'll look at it again when I > get home and post specifics on it. Unfortunately, I don't have any > documentation on the hard disk setup. Ah, I see. It's some whacko custom thingie. Didn't the Lisa originally use some kind of ProFile-ish thing (custom interface, custom drive electronix, etc.). > I've had a few of the Adaptec boards, including one mounted in > an Atari SH-204 hard disk, converting from the ST's interface to the MFM > drive mounted in the enclosure. Hm, very interesting! I wonder what model they used? Like I said before, most of the early SCSI boards from Adaptec (and most of the other mfr's as well at that time) were only partial SCSI implementations. Ah, well, mebbe I stuck my foot in my mouth-- the ST did have a SCSI interface, didn't it? Or was it yet another whacko custom thingie . . Jeff ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue May 29 11:31:33 2001 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: 3.5" MFM hard disk Message-ID: <20010529.114008.-426737.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> That's possibly the RLL version of the same card; ACB-4070. These were used alot on fileservers in the mid-80's (although, I must admit I've never seen one with a 3.5" formfactor). Oh yeah, there's also an ACB-55xx series, this family was more diverse: They made a model that could do SMD<->SCSI, f'rinstance. I have one of these, but it doesn't work. These were all *partial* SCSI implementations. The *real* scsi boards were the ACB-4520/25's. These were for ESDI drives, though. On Tue, 29 May 2001 08:38:58 -0600 "Richard Erlacher" writes: > That's not necessarily the case! > > I recently got a SCSI box, originally designed as an attachment for > a MAC, that > had a 3-1/2" drive (the one the configuration of which I don't > recall) on the > order of 40 MB, but which had a board that I remember as NOT being > an ACB-4000, > though it was of the 40xx series. It was, IIRC, an ADAPTEC board, > but an RLL > board and, oddly enough, of a 3-1/2" form factor. > > I'll look at it and let you know what it is. > > Dick > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From dittman at dittman.net Tue May 29 12:19:58 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: Core Memory ID In-Reply-To: <20010529151320.51466.qmail@web9505.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at May 29, 2001 08:13:20 AM Message-ID: <200105291719.f4THJwq02718@narnia.int.dittman.net> > --- David Gesswein wrote: > > > From: Eric Dittman > > > I was looking around my box of old boards and > > > found a core memory set I've had since about > > > '84. > > > > > > The handles also has "W025" on them. > > Does it look like this... > > http://www.penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/pdp8/pix/coreassy.jpg > > If so, it's for a PDP-8/L or PDP-8/i That's it exactly, except for the label. I've seen PDP-8 systems, but I never got inside them (or used them) so I didn't have any reference. I only collect VAX, Alpha, and PDP-11 stuff in the DEC line. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue May 29 12:26:58 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: 3.5" MFM hard disk Message-ID: <01May29.132607edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> > > >On Tue, 29 May 2001 09:56:17 -0400 "Jeff Hellige" > writes: >> The board is from Sun Remarketing and is labled as being >Ah, I see. It's some whacko custom thingie. Didn't the Lisa originally >use some kind of ProFile-ish thing (custom interface, custom drive >electronix, etc.). The Lisa's external Profile hard disks (5 and 10MB) and internal 'Widget' hard disks both ran off of a parallel interface. I've not taken my Profile apart enough to determine exactly what's inside of it but the Lisa 2/10 internal drive certainly appears to have been a custom setup. There are like 3 circuit boards mounted above the drive assembly itself. I really should put the effort into getting the Profile working but thought I'd try to figure out this other setup first. >Hm, very interesting! I wonder what model they used? Like I said >before, >most of the early SCSI boards from Adaptec (and most of the other mfr's >as well at that time) were only partial SCSI implementations. I'll take the cover off of the SH-204 and report the board ID once I get home. >Ah, well, mebbe I stuck my foot in my mouth-- the ST did have a SCSI >interface, didn't it? Or was it yet another whacko custom thingie . . If I remember correctly, the ST's interface was close to SCSI, close enough that ICD created some relatively small interface adapters for it. Jeff From donm at cts.com Tue May 29 13:07:03 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: 3.5" MFM hard disk In-Reply-To: <002501c0e84d$18b7d300$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 May 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > That's not necessarily the case! > > I recently got a SCSI box, originally designed as an attachment for a MAC, that > had a 3-1/2" drive (the one the configuration of which I don't recall) on the > order of 40 MB, but which had a board that I remember as NOT being an ACB-4000, > though it was of the 40xx series. It was, IIRC, an ADAPTEC board, but an RLL > board and, oddly enough, of a 3-1/2" form factor. Well, the 5.25" form factor RLL board was the ACB-4070. - don > I'll look at it and let you know what it is. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jeffrey l Kaneko" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 7:10 AM > Subject: Re: 3.5" MFM hard disk > > > > > > > > > > > > > used to make for connecting MFM drives up to various other interfaces. > > > > Yeah? Which make/model? If it *were* Adaptec, I'd bet it's an ACB-4000, > > in which case it's MFM<->SCSI (sortof). What sort of machine is it > > going into? > > > > > > Jeff > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > > > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 29 12:52:13 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: you vs. museums In-Reply-To: <3B130289.C9B5B858@ix.netcom.com> from "Campbell" at May 28, 1 06:59:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2469 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010529/4c69374c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 29 13:28:29 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: Need help In-Reply-To: from "John Honniball" at May 29, 1 02:48:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1275 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010529/287c671d/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue May 29 13:49:01 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: Heathkit Fall 1978 catalog now on-line; H-8, H-11, H-9 and ET-3400. In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20010516232716.00a3d340@mail.patriot.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010529144203.00a74a30@mailhost.intellistar.net> Sam, Page 30 of the Fall ' 78 catalog lists a "Synthesized Digital FM Stereo Tuner" that sounds that the one that you describe. The model number for the kit is AJS-1510A. There's only a fraction of a page that shows it but I'll try to scan it and post it on my website later. I'll put it up as "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/stereo.jpg". FWIW I couldn't find it in the ' 81 catalog. Joe At 11:29 PM 5/16/01 -0100, you wrote: >I have been looking all over for the model number of a fancy digital fm >tuner that heathkit made about 1978. It was unusual because it had a >keypad on it to punch in the station you wanted. Is it possible for you to >look in your 1978 heathkit catalog and see if such a thing is in there. If >you could put it on your site it would be great! > >Thanks, > >Sam Lowenstein From LFessen106 at aol.com Tue May 29 13:50:01 2001 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: you vs. museums Message-ID: <84.169cb5e9.28454959@aol.com> In a message dated 5/29/01 2:44:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: > > In the end, I figured it was more trouble that it's worth. I've got my > own machines to keep running. I'll still help people -- anyone -- who is > trying to restore an old machine, no matter if they're associated with a > museum or not. I'd volunteer again if the above points (and a couple > more) were officially sorted out. > > -tony > I will agree here as well. You will find that most "museums" may show the computer, but probably not running, and you can't get a hands on feel for it. Also many older machines can still be providing usefull services for people but won't do that sitting in any museum. You can come and see my :museum" pieces anytime , and I'll even let ya "touch" them :-) -Linc Fessenden In The Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... Calculating in binary code is as easy as 01,10,11. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 29 14:38:43 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: you vs. museums In-Reply-To: References: <3B130289.C9B5B858@ix.netcom.com> from "Campbell" at May 28, 1 06:59:42 pm Message-ID: The no budget for even the most minor or common parts like fuses and batteries seems like a common illness. It does tend to drive the free support people nuts. From witchy at vorbis.demon.co.uk Tue May 29 15:06:07 2001 From: witchy at vorbis.demon.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: WOW!R@RE!L@@K In-Reply-To: <200105290217.VAA16227@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: > Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 18:41:25 +0200 > From: "Hans Franke" > Subject: L@@K R@RE (Was: Microwave) > > :)) > > Nice page ... although some of the picture descriptions are hard > to understand ... is 'Bit like Dodo' nw uncomon in your eyes ? > And what's about 'Rocking Horse shit' ? (Well, I own a SORD M5, > and it's one of only 4 units ever 'officialy' imported to Germany, > so I thought of it as somewhat uncommon). Ta! Well, Dodos have been extinct for a long time, but I couldn't think of something that was *nearly* extinct. Having said that nigh on 80,000 Lisa 1's were sold, though most were apparently upgraded to Lisa 2s since the upgrade was free. As for rocking horse shit, have you ever seen any? :o) The other analogy is 'Hen's teeth'. The Sord M5 is more uncommon over here than the CGL M5 which was the European version. I suppose I should change the picture to be my stretched Memotech MTX512 which never officially made it out of the factory. > P.S.: I Like the 'Selling Sand to the Arabs' phrase :) *grin* -------------------------------- > Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 14:18:49 -0400 > From: Chad Fernandez > Subject: Re: L@@K R@RE (Was: Microwave) > > I liked it too :-) *bow* > I think the difficult to understand captions are English (as in England) > slang. TBH I thought Paving slabs might have caused more confusion than, say, dodos :) cheers adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the Online Computer Museum 0:OK, 0:1 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue May 29 14:45:28 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: Heathkit Fall 1978 catalog now on-line; H-8, H-11, H-9 and ET-3400. In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010529144203.00a74a30@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <4.2.2.20010516232716.00a3d340@mail.patriot.net> Message-ID: >Sam, > > Page 30 of the Fall ' 78 catalog lists a "Synthesized Digital FM Stereo >Tuner" that sounds that the one that you describe. The model number for >the kit is AJS-1510A. There's only a fraction of a page that shows it but >I'll try to scan it and post it on my website later. I'll put it up as >"http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/stereo.jpg". FWIW I couldn't find >it in the ' 81 catalog. > > Joe > >At 11:29 PM 5/16/01 -0100, you wrote: >>I have been looking all over for the model number of a fancy digital fm >>tuner that heathkit made about 1978. It was unusual because it had a This from an eBay ad for the catalog This item is an excellent 1970 HEATHKIT Factory Mail Order Catalog, catalog number 800/40. The catalog is in an 8 1/2 inch by 11 inch format and is 64 pages long; the covers and a few of the internal pages are in full color. The covers are paper, and printed in full color. The front cover has a photograph of a Heathkit car stereo [8 TRACK no less!] being built; the back cover has a feature of five NEW kits. The inside front cover has a large article titled "WHY HEATHKIT COLOR TV..."; it continues on to the first page with several color photographs. The inside back cover features the AJ-1510 DIGTAL FM Stereo Tuner From allain at panix.com Tue May 29 04:32:25 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: you vs. museums References: <3B130289.C9B5B858@ix.netcom.com> from "Campbell" at May 28, 106:59:42 pm <005701c0e821$b1d401c0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <007001c0e822$45a44720$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> I'm not really defending museums here, having lost the local history center to the west coast, but has anyone at one of these museums ever attempted to defend their postion by saying "Authentic peroid components only"? That would rule out new purchases. John A. still going to buy a Plane ticket From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 29 16:35:55 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: you vs. museums In-Reply-To: <007001c0e822$45a44720$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at May 29, 1 05:32:25 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1106 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010529/b46184bc/attachment.ksh From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue May 29 16:51:01 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: 3.5" MFM hard disk In-Reply-To: <20010529.083636.-402829.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> References: <20010529.083636.-402829.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: > > The Kalok is 615 cylinders and 4 heads. It's currently >> connected to a converter board, similar to the ones that Adaptec >> used to make for connecting MFM drives up to various other interfaces. > >Yeah? Which make/model? If it *were* Adaptec, I'd bet it's an ACB-4000, >in which case it's MFM<->SCSI (sortof). What sort of machine is it >going into? As stated before, the board was made by Sun Remarketing and it's their part# 00-002 and has the following major chips on it: - SCN8031HCCN40 - UM6116-3 - SMS OMTI 20513B - SMS OMTI 20507 - Sun Remarketing ROM 341-8005 There are also various resistors and surface mount chips (74LS374B1, 74LS373N, 74LS280B1, 74LS08N, 74LS14N, MC3487P, MC3486P). There's a 26pin header input from the parallel output of the Lisa as well as a power input. There are then the standard MFM dual cable outputs to the hard disk as well as a power connector going to the hard disk. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From bshannon at tiac.net Tue May 29 17:31:12 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: test Message-ID: <3B142330.2BCA920B@tiac.net> Testing... From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue May 29 17:23:06 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: 3.5" MFM hard disk In-Reply-To: <20010529.114008.-426737.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> References: <20010529.114008.-426737.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: > > I've had a few of the Adaptec boards, including one mounted in >> an Atari SH-204 hard disk, converting from the ST's interface to the >MFM >> drive mounted in the enclosure. > >Hm, very interesting! I wonder what model they used? Like I said >before, >most of the early SCSI boards from Adaptec (and most of the other mfr's >as well at that time) were only partial SCSI implementations. > >Ah, well, mebbe I stuck my foot in my mouth-- the ST did have a SCSI >interface, didn't it? Or was it yet another whacko custom thingie . . The plot thickens...I've just opened up the SH-204 and found the following: - Atari ST 19pin input to circuit card #1 (Atari Host Adapter, part# C026266) - 50pin output from above board to card #2 (Atari part# C070733) which contains the following 3 Adaptec chips: AIC-010, AIC-250, and AIC-300. - standard dual MFM cable output , plus power, to a Tandon TM-262 hard disk. All of this, plus PSU, in the SH-204 shoebox case. No Adaptec part# on the 2nd board though. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From edick at idcomm.com Tue May 29 17:52:24 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: 3.5" MFM hard disk References: Message-ID: <002901c0e892$06f89ec0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yes, I'm familiar with those. That's why I know this particular one isn't one of them. However, I've not yet looked to see what it really is, but I do remember it isn't a 5-1/4" form-factor board. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Maslin" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 12:07 PM Subject: Re: 3.5" MFM hard disk > > > On Tue, 29 May 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > That's not necessarily the case! > > > > I recently got a SCSI box, originally designed as an attachment for a MAC, that > > had a 3-1/2" drive (the one the configuration of which I don't recall) on the > > order of 40 MB, but which had a board that I remember as NOT being an ACB-4000, > > though it was of the 40xx series. It was, IIRC, an ADAPTEC board, but an RLL > > board and, oddly enough, of a 3-1/2" form factor. > > Well, the 5.25" form factor RLL board was the ACB-4070. > > - don > > > I'll look at it and let you know what it is. > > > > Dick > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Jeffrey l Kaneko" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 7:10 AM > > Subject: Re: 3.5" MFM hard disk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > used to make for connecting MFM drives up to various other interfaces. > > > > > > Yeah? Which make/model? If it *were* Adaptec, I'd bet it's an ACB-4000, > > > in which case it's MFM<->SCSI (sortof). What sort of machine is it > > > going into? > > > > > > > > > Jeff > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > > > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > > > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > > > > > > > > > > > From epgroot at ucdavis.edu Tue May 29 18:22:58 2001 From: epgroot at ucdavis.edu (Edwin P. Groot) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: test In-Reply-To: <3B142330.2BCA920B@tiac.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010529162258.007cb7c0@yellow.ucdavis.edu> PING! At 06:31 PM 5/29/2001 -0400, you wrote: >Testing... > > From optimus at canit.se Tue May 29 18:29:21 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: 3.5" MFM hard disk In-Reply-To: <01May29.132607edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <527.550T1050T294239optimus@canit.se> Jeff Hellige skrev: >>Ah, well, mebbe I stuck my foot in my mouth-- the ST did have a SCSI >>interface, didn't it? Or was it yet another whacko custom thingie . . > If I remember correctly, the ST's interface was close to SCSI, close >enough that ICD created some relatively small interface adapters for it. The ST used ACSI, which was, well, DMA on an external D19 connector. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Goto: A programming tool that exists to allow structured programmers to complain about unstructured programmers. From allain at panix.com Tue May 29 07:15:41 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: Micom Micro600 Port Selector manual set References: <20010529.114008.-426737.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <009401c0e839$14c04a20$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Micom Micro600 Port Selector manual set free for postage to a worthy home. John A. From owad at applefritter.com Tue May 29 21:35:40 2001 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: PLI TurboFloppy for Mac Message-ID: <20010530023540.16396@mail.earthlink.net> I finally had a chance to look at that SCSI floppy drive I mentioned on the list a few weeks ago and a few people wanted to hear more about. It's interesting. The drive is built by PLI and named the TurboFloppy 1.4. It can only read and write 1.4MB disks, no 400k or 800k (and I complained about USB disk drives not being able to!). The manual keeps stating that the drive does not have an auto-eject and the picture on the box shows the drive with an eject button, but the drive that I got simply has a paper clip hole like any other Mac drive, so presumably it supports auto-eject. I've been trying to get the drive to work with an LC 580 without much luck (the other older SCSI Mac I have handy is my Color Classic and I'm not about to hook a strange drive up to it). I've tried various SCSI ID's without any luck. With termination turned off, the computer boots as if the drive was not even attached. With termination on the drives attempts to read the disk at startup and then the Mac begins to boot, hanging at the 'MacOS Starting up...' screen before any extensions are visibly loaded. It strikes me as a SCSI problem, so I think I'm next going to try it with a hd-less Mac Plus or SE (something from around the time period it was made) and see how it reacts to that. The manual mentions a disk containing the files 'TurboCache' and 'TurboBack'. If anybody should have them I'd love a copy. Reading the manual, it appears the TurboFloppy was intended for Mac users who didn't have floppy ports but needed a second 1.4MB-only floppy drive. I'm not sure who that would be. My plan is to use the drive as a quick- and-dirty way of loading software (particularly network software) onto Macs with bad floppy drives. Tom Applefritter www.applefritter.com From bshannon at tiac.net Tue May 29 22:03:10 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: Hello classic computer fans... References: <527.550T1050T294239optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3B1462EE.587A482@tiac.net> Hi, My name is Bob Shannon, and I've been collecting and restoring old computers for quite a while now, and I have a rather varied accumulation of interesting machines. Some of my favorites are HP minicomputers from the 1960's, I've got the full set, a 2114A, 2115A, and a 2116C. I've also accumulated spare parts and many peripherals. Ever seen a 7.5 inch hard-sectored dual floppy disk drive for HP minis? In addition to the HP collection I've got some PDP's (11/35, 11/34A, VT-11 display, etc). Of course there is an assortement of peripherals for the DEC systems, including an original unibus Link-tape drive, RL-01's, a Megatek vector graphics system, etc. Any DEC vector graphics fans out there itching to get their hands on a VT-11, display and light pen? Maybe I should install that into the 11/35, and make a space war machine? For the more exotic stuff, I have an original MIT CADR lisp machine complete with the Trident T-300 drive. Saddly my disk pack is no longer bootable...not likley I'll ever get a bootable disk for that baby. If anyone ever wants to restore a MIT CADR, I've got the only remaining supply of tested spare parts (LMI CADR spare parts technically). There are a few micro's in my accumulation as well, an old IMSAI, an ELF-II, etc. I tend to get a parts machine or two for most of my collection, and I'm willing to trade and swap parts, etc. (I once had a nice collection of Nova's, but traded them all away...) Lastly I have a collection of old software for some of the machines (HP's mainly). I have also designed a photo-tape reader emulator that loads paper tape binary images from ROM, so the old machines can be seen in action. By the way, if anyone has a DOS or Windows cross assembler for the HP machines, I'd love to get a copy! I still use a custom control system based on a HP2117E, binary compatible with the classic systems. I have seen the C source code for a cross assembler on the HP2100 archive site, but not being a C programmer I've not gotten it to compile so far. I've just read about VCF East, I'm not sure I can get things ready to exhibit this year, but I will attend for sure. Perhaps I can at least show up with some of the micros...maybe the HP2114, as that can fit in my jeep. From dittman at dittman.net Tue May 29 22:24:37 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Clones Message-ID: <200105300324.f4U3Ob904611@narnia.int.dittman.net> Along with VAX, Alpha, and PDP-11, I collect TRS-80s. I've got three different clone TRS-80s. One is the Cyzern 7000, which I built myself from a kit. I've had this one for a long time. The other is Dennis Bathory-Kitsz's LNW-80, which I bought from him. The other one I have is one I've never heard of before. I got the unit in a bunch of other TRS-80 equipment. The case is a hacked TRS-80 Model I keyboard, with a standard TRS-80 Model I keyboard with built-in keypad (very late Model I keyboard). The power, video, and cassette connectors are a match for the Model I. The CPU board has a built-in floppy disk controller, and is a Model III clone. The manufacturer appears to have been Norcom. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Tue May 29 22:52:42 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: New HD disks not working in 1541? Message-ID: <3B146E8A.93D18E4F@aurora.regenstrief.org> Hi, now that I have my old C64 setup back I found that I could not format newer 5.25" HD disks on the 1541 or 1571. It just bumps and blinks and stops. Does the 1541 require hard sectored disk? I don't think so, because I can still remember today that my first disk ever said "BASF Flexi Disk, 5.25", Singled Side, Double Density, Soft Sector." So what's the trick to get media working? Bulk eraser? (BTW: It's been over 15 years and I still have that disk and could actually read one side of it, that's fun!) thanks -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From allain at panix.com Tue May 29 10:54:54 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: Hello classic computer fans... References: <527.550T1050T294239optimus@canit.se> <3B1462EE.587A482@tiac.net> Message-ID: <001901c0e857$b46cc580$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Everything (that I can understand) sounds very nice. The VT-11/vector setup sounds most interesting. I almost signed up for Tufts because they were running such a thing. In any event bring pictures of the stuff you can't haul to the VCF. It's concievable that I could help with the xasm (being that I am a c'er). John A. From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue May 29 23:02:43 2001 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: New HD disks not working in 1541? In-Reply-To: <3B146E8A.93D18E4F@aurora.regenstrief.org> from "Gunther Schadow" at May 30, 2001 03:52:42 AM Message-ID: <200105300402.WAA00778@calico.litterbox.com> I never tried HD disks in a 1541, but I know the magnetic properties of HD disks are different and require a different head to read and write effectively. I'd say scratch about and find some DD disks if you can. > > Hi, > > now that I have my old C64 setup back I found that I could not > format newer 5.25" HD disks on the 1541 or 1571. It just bumps > and blinks and stops. Does the 1541 require hard sectored disk? > I don't think so, because I can still remember today that my first > disk ever said "BASF Flexi Disk, 5.25", Singled Side, Double > Density, Soft Sector." So what's the trick to get media working? > Bulk eraser? (BTW: It's been over 15 years and I still have that > disk and could actually read one side of it, that's fun!) > > thanks > -Gunther > > > -- > Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org > Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care > Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine > tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Tue May 29 23:45:02 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: New HD disks not working in 1541? In-Reply-To: <3B146E8A.93D18E4F@aurora.regenstrief.org> from Gunther Schadow at "May 30, 1 03:52:42 am" Message-ID: <200105300445.VAA11032@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > now that I have my old C64 setup back I found that I could not > format newer 5.25" HD disks on the 1541 or 1571. It just bumps > and blinks and stops. Does the 1541 require hard sectored disk? No, but it requires DD. HD will not work. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- TODAY'S DUMB TRUE HEADLINE: Cold Wave Linked To Temperatures --------------- From rhblake at bigfoot.com Wed May 30 00:21:26 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: New HD disks not working in 1541? In-Reply-To: <3B146E8A.93D18E4F@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: Might be that they come preformatted now and magnetic erasing is the best option. Your dirve may be getting dirty too and the newer tighter oxides aren't as easily read. I would guess the bulk erasing would be your next troubleshooting step though. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Gunther Schadow > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 10:53 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: New HD disks not working in 1541? > > > Hi, > > now that I have my old C64 setup back I found that I could not > format newer 5.25" HD disks on the 1541 or 1571. It just bumps > and blinks and stops. Does the 1541 require hard sectored disk? > I don't think so, because I can still remember today that my first > disk ever said "BASF Flexi Disk, 5.25", Singled Side, Double > Density, Soft Sector." So what's the trick to get media working? > Bulk eraser? (BTW: It's been over 15 years and I still have that > disk and could actually read one side of it, that's fun!) > > thanks > -Gunther > > > -- > Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org > Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care > Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine > tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From rhblake at bigfoot.com Wed May 30 00:41:18 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: AC adapters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Two are spoken for, have 2 left to sell one at a time or both together (shipping is cheaper [er unit if shipped together). > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Russ Blakeman > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 1:40 PM > To: Classic Computer List > Subject: AC adapters > > > I have some AC adapters I bought in a lot, I gave $1 each for them and > pulled what I need from them. Input is 120VAC 60hz 800ma and output on a > standard round/tubular "coax" connector is 16VAC, 4A. Fused with a 5A/250V > fuse built in and changeable if blown. They're bricks with about 3 ft of > wire to the 2 prong AC plug and about 3 ft to the coax adapter. Brick > measures about 3" wide, 3.5" deep and 2.5" high. Made by Eltron with the > part number 808061-001. > > I have 4 I need to get rid of at $1.00 each plus applicable postage. They > weigh 3 lbs each. Someone can have them all or just 1, 2, etc. I'm in > central KY in zip 42726 in the event someone wishes to calc shipping. > > Drop me a note direct at rhblake@bigfoot.com > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 30 01:12:18 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: New HD disks not working in 1541? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: New HD disks not working in 1541? That's right. HD disks don't work in 1541. If you want disks that will work right in 1541, you need "DOUBLE DENSITY" (300 Oerstedt) disks, NOT "HIGH DENSITY" (600 Oerstedt) Magnetic coercivity is analogous to photographic film sensitivity. Using the wrong sensitivity won't work right, even if somebody tells you that one is "better" than another one. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From foo at siconic.com Wed May 30 01:31:52 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: WOW!R@RE!L@@K In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 29 May 2001, Adrian Graham wrote: > Ta! Well, Dodos have been extinct for a long time, but I couldn't think of > something that was *nearly* extinct. Having said that nigh on 80,000 Lisa > 1's were sold, though most were apparently upgraded to Lisa 2s since the > upgrade was free. As for rocking horse shit, have you ever seen any? :o) The Are you sure there were 80K Lisa 1's sold? Wouldn't that be the number for the entire run of Lisa's sold in total? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed May 30 05:40:43 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: WOW!R@RE!L@@K In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Are you sure there were 80K Lisa 1's sold? Wouldn't that be the number >for the entire run of Lisa's sold in total? The most often quoted numbers I've seen have been in the area of 10k Lisa 1's and 70k Lisa 2's/Mac XL's. Of course, as he mentioned, the fact that Apple offered the upgrade from 1 to 2 certainly didn't help the remaining number of Lisa 1's. Jeff (who's still trying to cross-ref what the various Lisa model #'s actually go to) -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From menadeau at mediaone.net Wed May 30 06:09:56 2001 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Clones References: <200105300324.f4U3Ob904611@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <002e01c0e8f9$12b18b20$0c01a8c0@michaelnadeau> Eric; I don't recall either the Cyzern or Norcom clones, but I'm in the process of researching Tandy/Radio Shack systems and will let you know if I come up with something. I might be misreading your message, but while Dennis might have built your LNW himself, LNW wasn't his company. It's possible he was a dealer for LNW through Green Mountain Micro--his company. The LNW was considered the Cadillac of TRS-80 clones. I still have a set of photos and text for a how-to article on building one. Several companies such as BT Enterprises sold souped-up TRS-80s--mostly Mod IIIs and 4s--under their own brand. This might be the case with your Norcom system. --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Dittman" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 11:24 PM Subject: TRS-80 Clones > Along with VAX, Alpha, and PDP-11, I collect TRS-80s. I've > got three different clone TRS-80s. One is the Cyzern 7000, which > I built myself from a kit. I've had this one for a long time. > The other is Dennis Bathory-Kitsz's LNW-80, which I bought from > him. > > The other one I have is one I've never heard of before. I got > the unit in a bunch of other TRS-80 equipment. The case is a > hacked TRS-80 Model I keyboard, with a standard TRS-80 Model I > keyboard with built-in keypad (very late Model I keyboard). > The power, video, and cassette connectors are a match for the > Model I. The CPU board has a built-in floppy disk controller, > and is a Model III clone. The manufacturer appears to have > been Norcom. > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Wed May 30 06:28:13 2001 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Clones In-Reply-To: <200105300324.f4U3Ob904611@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 May 2001 22:24:37 -0500 (CDT) Eric Dittman wrote: > Along with VAX, Alpha, and PDP-11, I collect TRS-80s. I've > got three different clone TRS-80s. One is the Cyzern 7000, which > I built myself from a kit. I've had this one for a long time. > The other is Dennis Bathory-Kitsz's LNW-80, which I bought from > him. I have a machine which I believe is a TRS-80 clone, although I don't know if it's fully compatible or some sort of upgrade. It's a Video Genie, and I seem to recall some connection with Dick Smith Electronics of Australia... Anybody know any more about this? -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From lists at aussie.nu Wed May 30 07:12:38 2001 From: lists at aussie.nu (Lists) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Clones In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > of upgrade. It's a Video Genie, and I seem to recall some connection > with Dick Smith Electronics of Australia... Anybody know any more > about this? I'm not sure that Dick Smith were tied up with the Video Genie, but they did sell what I believe was a TRS-80 compatible machine known as the 'System-80'. If I remember correctly, it was sold both in pre-built and kit form. It may have been known in other countries under other names of course. Casting my memory back, I think the System-80 was featured in the magazine "Electronics Australia". I *think* they had schematics, theory of operation, etc, etc. I may be wrong. From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 30 08:25:53 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: Hello classic computer fans... In-Reply-To: <3B1462EE.587A482@tiac.net> References: <527.550T1050T294239optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010530082526.01d25ee0@pc> At 11:03 PM 5/29/01 -0400, Bob Shannon wrote: >Lastly I have a collection of old software for some of the machines (HP's >mainly). I have also >designed a photo-tape reader emulator that loads paper tape binary images >from ROM, so the old machines can be seen in action. I'd like to hear more about that... - John From steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com Wed May 30 09:14:52 2001 From: steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: Hello classic computer fans... Message-ID: Welcome to the list Bob. There are a number of HP minicomputer collectors on this list including myself. While I don't have anything from the 60's, I do have several MPE systems and 5 or 6 early HPUX boxes. I'm always looking to add interesting hardware or software to the collection. Once again, welcome. SteveRob >From: Bob Shannon >Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >Subject: Hello classic computer fans... >Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 23:03:10 -0400 > >Hi, > >My name is Bob Shannon, and I've been collecting and restoring old >computers for quite a while now, and I have a rather varied accumulation of >interesting machines. > >Some of my favorites are HP minicomputers from the 1960's, I've got the >full set, a 2114A, 2115A, and a 2116C. I've also accumulated spare parts >and many peripherals. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Wed May 30 11:06:42 2001 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:50 2005 Subject: Apple Turnover?(OT long, boring, maybe humor) Message-ID: Little know facts about apple turnovers. 1. The hard part is convincing the apple to turn over when it's done on one side. A human analogy is how do you convince a sleeping sunbather to turn over when they are burnt on one side. 2. There have been government funded trials of robot arm based image analysis programs that will automate the process for only $10,000 per apple to be turned over. The only successful installation is in the International Space Station where gravity is not a factor so the apple will turn over due to convection currents in the air flow. That's where the term convection oven comes from. 3. There are also CIA funded research to examine whether there is a "apple turnover gap" due to Russian experiments with apples and psychic phenomena. 4. Apple turnover is a code word that Echelon uses to identify Russian defectors. apples are red and Russians are red, defectors are turncoats or turnovers. Russian defector=red apple turnover 5. Board game http://www.gamesdomain.com/GDLive/1201.html 6. Q: When does an apple turnover? A: Who Cares I'm digressing! Mike McFadden mmcfadden@cmh.edu From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Wed May 30 11:05:40 2001 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: Altair 8800 front panel lamps Message-ID: I've just been reading "Computer: A History of the Information Machine", by Martin Campbell-Kelly and WIlliam Aspray. It mentions the Altair 8800 (on page 240) and describes the front panel: When loaded, the program would run; but the only evidence of its execution was the change in the shifting pattern of the neon bulbs on the front. Neon bulbs? Did the Altair really have neon bulbs on the front panel? I would have expected LEDs -- can anyone clarify this, please? -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From dittman at dittman.net Wed May 30 11:41:55 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Clones In-Reply-To: <002e01c0e8f9$12b18b20$0c01a8c0@michaelnadeau> from "Michael Nadeau" at May 30, 2001 07:09:56 AM Message-ID: <200105301641.f4UGftG06882@narnia.int.dittman.net> > I don't recall either the Cyzern or Norcom clones, but I'm in the process of > researching Tandy/Radio Shack systems and will let you know if I come up > with something. The Cyzern was advertised in 80-Micro. > I might be misreading your message, but while Dennis might have built your > LNW himself, LNW wasn't his company. It's possible he was a dealer for LNW > through Green Mountain Micro--his company. The LNW was considered the > Cadillac of TRS-80 clones. I still have a set of photos and text for a > how-to article on building one. What I meant was Dennis's personal LNW-80. As a fan of his articles and book, being able to buy his personal LNW-80 was neat. > Several companies such as BT Enterprises sold souped-up TRS-80s--mostly Mod > IIIs and 4s--under their own brand. This might be the case with your Norcom > system. The Norcom looks like it was a complete CPU board swapout for the Model I. In fact, a hole in the top rear vents was hacked out to make room for the floppy disk edge connector. Since it also is a Model III rather than a Model I clone, I'm guessing this was an after-market upgrade. I don't remember seeing any ads for the board or the company. I've got pictures somewhere. Once I find them and scan them in I'll post pointers to the files. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From kapteynr at cboe.com Wed May 30 11:46:23 2001 From: kapteynr at cboe.com (Rob Kapteyn) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: Altair 8800 front panel lamps Message-ID: <6D5A04499826D311811100902760DDCF07F9DD60@msx1.cboe.com> They have LEDs. I soldered them in myself when I put together my Altair kit :-) BTW -- a lot of the popular history of the Altair is wrong. I have seen several "official" source list the original price at $375. It was MUCH more expensive. I have my original invoices somewhere ... -Rob -----Original Message----- From: John Honniball [SMTP:John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk] Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 11:06 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Altair 8800 front panel lamps I've just been reading "Computer: A History of the Information Machine", by Martin Campbell-Kelly and WIlliam Aspray. It mentions the Altair 8800 (on page 240) and describes the front panel: When loaded, the program would run; but the only evidence of its execution was the change in the shifting pattern of the neon bulbs on the front. Neon bulbs? Did the Altair really have neon bulbs on the front panel? I would have expected LEDs -- can anyone clarify this, please? -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From foo at siconic.com Wed May 30 11:02:55 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: Altair 8800 front panel lamps In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 30 May 2001, John Honniball wrote: > I've just been reading "Computer: A History of the > Information Machine", by Martin Campbell-Kelly and WIlliam > Aspray. It mentions the Altair 8800 (on page 240) and > describes the front panel: > > When loaded, the program would run; but the only evidence > of its execution was the change in the shifting pattern of > the neon bulbs on the front. > > Neon bulbs? Did the Altair really have neon bulbs on the > front panel? I would have expected LEDs -- can anyone > clarify this, please? No. "Computer" was one of the most (if not THE most) poorly researched books on computer history I've ever read. It contained numerous factual errors, such as the one above. The authors obviously didn't take the time to do any fact checking or proof-reading. Because of this, their book could be considered unreliable drivel. I certainly wouldn't use it as the basis for any research. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed May 30 02:09:51 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: New HD disks not working in 1541? In-Reply-To: Gunther Schadow "New HD disks not working in 1541?" (May 30, 3:52) References: <3B146E8A.93D18E4F@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <10105300809.ZM7120@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 30, 3:52, Gunther Schadow wrote: > now that I have my old C64 setup back I found that I could not > format newer 5.25" HD disks on the 1541 or 1571. It just bumps > and blinks and stops. Does the 1541 require hard sectored disk? > I don't think so, because I can still remember today that my first > disk ever said "BASF Flexi Disk, 5.25", Singled Side, Double > Density, Soft Sector." So what's the trick to get media working? > Bulk eraser? (BTW: It's been over 15 years and I still have that > disk and could actually read one side of it, that's fun!) As others have said, you need disks intended for single-density or double density, not HD. I've also met one 1541 owner who swears that disks without hub rings won't work in his drive (and never did) because the mechanism doesn't grip them tightly enough (though I'm fairly sure that's just due to a soft spring or a missing screw on the frame somewhere). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed May 30 12:18:13 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: Cromemco S100 and AMIGA docs/book avail for trade Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010530101037.02a5caa0@208.226.86.10> Hello All, I've got a copy of Volume 2 of the ROM Kernel Manual (Libraries and Devices) and the complete notes (a big 4" binder full) from the '88 developers conference. (It even has the presentation on the fabled A2000 Transputer version!) Anyway, they weigh 12lbs and are available for trade. I've also got the three volume set Cromemco ZPU, 64KZ, and 16FDC manuals available. (those go as a set _only_ please) I'd like to get some DEC documentation if I can. Things on my wish list are: Any Q-bus VAX processor Technical Manual (KA6xx) (except KA660) PDP-8 or PDP-11 handbooks Prints for an 11/34 RLO2 manuals Prints/Manuals on the TU60 DECCassette DRV11 Users Guide or Technical Manual!!!! CXA16 Users Guide or Technical Manual --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 30 12:25:45 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: Hello classic computer fans... In-Reply-To: <3B1462EE.587A482@tiac.net> from "Bob Shannon" at May 29, 1 11:03:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2837 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010530/d10c3705/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 30 12:34:34 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: New HD disks not working in 1541? In-Reply-To: <3B146E8A.93D18E4F@aurora.regenstrief.org> from "Gunther Schadow" at May 30, 1 03:52:42 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 749 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010530/2e4d8de2/attachment.ksh From liste at artware.qc.ca Wed May 30 12:43:16 2001 From: liste at artware.qc.ca (liste@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: Heathkit oscilloscope Message-ID: I finally got my hands on an osiclloscope! 10 CAD at a garage sale this week-end. The beast is OLD, but works! I can't find a model number, but it says "Push pull" and "Extended range" on the front. I bought it with an course text book from Institut Teccart Montreal dated 1944 (in French). Last couple of chapters are about tubes, which is nice because my knowledge of tubes is limited. OK, so it's not a computer, but, uh, I'm going to use it to debug computers! Yeah, that's the ticket. But it doesn't go to very high frequencies... SO I'm going to use it to debug 9600 baud serial connections! Yeah, that's the ticket. -Philip From bakcc at bigoakhill.com Wed May 30 12:40:47 2001 From: bakcc at bigoakhill.com (bakcc@bigoakhill.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: Apple Turnover?(OT long, boring, maybe humor) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200105301747.f4UHln126697@mnmai05.mn.mediaone.net> Do not try and turn-over the apple. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth. There is no apple. Then you will see it is not the apple that turns-over... it is only yourself. -Bruce Keller bakcc@bigoakhill.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 30 12:39:46 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Clones In-Reply-To: from "John Honniball" at May 30, 1 12:28:13 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 580 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010530/38ad7b08/attachment.ksh From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed May 30 13:02:37 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: New HD disks not working in 1541? In-Reply-To: <10105300809.ZM7120@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: > As others have said, you need disks intended for single-density or double > density, not HD. I've also met one 1541 owner who swears that disks > without hub rings won't work in his drive (and never did) because the > mechanism doesn't grip them tightly enough (though I'm fairly sure that's > just due to a soft spring or a missing screw on the frame somewhere). > I don't ever recall seeing a HD disk with a hub ring. The only ones that have them in my experience is the SD or DD disks. g. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 30 12:45:58 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: Altair 8800 front panel lamps In-Reply-To: from "John Honniball" at May 30, 1 05:05:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1324 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010530/f6053450/attachment.ksh From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed May 30 12:57:30 2001 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: Washington D.C. Trip References: <527.550T1050T294239optimus@canit.se> <4.3.2.7.0.20010530082526.01d25ee0@pc> Message-ID: Didn't get anything from anywhere on my extended Memorial Day vacation to Washington D.C. (Mostly running through museums) But I highly reccomend it to anyone interested in historical computing devices. The main Smithsonian museums I went to were the American History Museum and the Air and Space museum. Both had special exhibits on information processing, and among the highlights are: American History Museum "The History of Information Processing" - An old mechanical logarithm calculator the size of a prone refrigerator - Two original German Enigma machines, the three-rotor and four-rotor models. These were AWESOME, and all the true hax0rs stood around them in awe. - The accumulators, main control pannel, power supplies and I/O tube grid from the Eniac. - A UNIVAC control unit. - The MANIAC main processor unit (HUGE box) - A Bendix mainframe, tape drive, and typewriter terminal - An old tube-based IBM mainframe with drum hard drive - An IBM/360 control unit. - A DEC PDP/8 with transparent card cage - A DEC PDP/15, the first computer used for fingerprint analysis by the FBI - A Xerox Altos, the machine Jobs & Woz "Borrowed" From, with a strange image screen-burned into the monitor. - Bugs taken from the DNC offices in the Watergate Building (Removed for "Further Study" :) -Various TI and HP calculators, 60's to 70's vintage, and a Pulsar watch (The first digital watch) - An Altair 8800, the original Apple I prototype model, and a Sol computer - A TRS-80 I, an IBM PC, Commodore 64 (Late vintage it looks) a Sun-I Workstation, and a Mac, all propped up on stacks of old Byte, Computerworld, and Misc. other magazines - Various other nick-nacks, like an original Mac system disk and brochure (If you can point, you can use a Mac) A HomeBrew Computer Club sweatshirt on a mannequin that a French couple mistook for Steve Jobs (I'm pretty sure he isn't, and has never been, of Asian descent. :) The camera used to broadcast the first televised Presidential debate, bunches of other stuff I've forgotten.. Air and Space Museum "Computers and Flight" -A Cray 1, S/N 0014. Installed at the Goddard space center, I belive. -Processor modules from an old model space shuttle (Can you say - over-engineering?) -Processor modules from the Iridium (defunct) system -A MicroVAX II (I have one! Horray!) -The slide rule Goddard used (Really classic computing :) -An ANCIENT IBM mini that I couldn't recognize. It's panels were off. - The last remaining piece of Sputnik; the pin used to keep the battery contacts of the transmitter open, pulled just before launch to activate the transmitter. Also, if you drive out to Rockville, a suburb of D.C., you can drive through this technology park and see Celera and the Human Genome Project, both within a mile of each other.. From bills at adrenaline.com Wed May 30 13:31:37 2001 From: bills at adrenaline.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: FS: HP-150A Message-ID: I need to clear a little of my collection (that or hire a divorce lawyer) so I want to move a few things I have multiples of or just don't have the time/skill/interest to fool with. So, first on the list: HP-150A Fully functional, with keyboard, _NO_ HP-IB peripherals or cable. There were leaking batteries in it, but the corrosion has been cleaned up/neutralized, new batteries installed and it works fine. Will provide MS-DOS 3.20 boot disk (single sided works with 9121 disk) with PAM and utilities if desired. Best offer by 4PM June 1. Thanks! From zmerch at 30below.com Wed May 30 13:23:56 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: New HD disks not working in 1541? In-Reply-To: <3B146E8A.93D18E4F@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20010530142356.01f8b700@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Gunther Schadow may have mentioned these words: >Hi, > >now that I have my old C64 setup back I found that I could not >format newer 5.25" HD disks on the 1541 or 1571. It just bumps >and blinks and stops. Does the 1541 require hard sectored disk? >I don't think so, because I can still remember today that my first >disk ever said "BASF Flexi Disk, 5.25", Singled Side, Double >Density, Soft Sector." So what's the trick to get media working? >Bulk eraser? (BTW: It's been over 15 years and I still have that >disk and could actually read one side of it, that's fun!) Gunther, HD disks AFAIK won't work at all in any DD drive - the TPI (Tracks Per Inch) are different. DD disks are 48TPI, HD disks are 96TPI. You need to find DSDD (or at least SSDD if the drive is SS) to be used on your 1541 or 1571. (Some SS disks might work for DS - I used to punch SS disks and turn them into "flippy" disks for the Apple & Tandy computers - many company's disks would "work" DS, they weren't verified or guaranteed for DS, however...) HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From bills at adrenaline.com Wed May 30 13:34:59 2001 From: bills at adrenaline.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: Washington D.C. Trip In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Also, if you drive out to Rockville, a suburb of D.C., you can > drive through this technology park and see Celera and the Human > Genome Project, both within a mile of each other.. And, if you give me a little notice before you come, you can visit my collection less than 8 miles from there. Bill Sudbrink From chronic at nf.sympatico.ca Wed May 30 13:23:25 2001 From: chronic at nf.sympatico.ca (Lanny Cox) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: Apple Turnover?(OT long, boring, maybe humor) References: <200105301747.f4UHln126697@mnmai05.mn.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <000a01c0e935$a1e8c920$88f8fea9@98box> Yes.... now i see it, the wold revolves around the apple... Kind of a paradox these days eh?? -Lanny ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 3:10 PM Subject: Re: Apple Turnover?(OT long, boring, maybe humor) > Do not try and turn-over the apple. That's impossible. Instead... only try > to realize the truth. There is no apple. Then you will see it is not > the apple that turns-over... it is only yourself. > > -Bruce Keller > bakcc@bigoakhill.com > > > From msell at ontimesupport.com Wed May 30 13:29:28 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: Heathkit oscilloscope In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010530132343.02ce2090@127.0.0.1> Old electronic test equipment in my opinion is very neat to restore and operate as well. I have an old HP "event counter" that has 10 rows of neon lamps representing digits 0 thru 9, that count "upwards" as pulses are presented on the input to the instrument. The last calibration was performed in 1963. It is completely made of vacuum tubes and point-to-point wiring. I used to work at a military and commercial surplus dealer and all kinds of neat old test equipment used to pass through. Spectrum analyzers, counters, and military devices comprised of tube technology were very neat to work with. Fascinating. - Matt At 01:43 PM 5/30/01 -0400, you wrote: >I finally got my hands on an osiclloscope! 10 CAD at a garage sale this >week-end. The beast is OLD, but works! I can't find a model number, but >it says "Push pull" and "Extended range" on the front. I bought it with an >course text book from Institut Teccart Montreal dated 1944 (in French). >Last couple of chapters are about tubes, which is nice because my >knowledge of tubes is limited. > >OK, so it's not a computer, but, uh, I'm going to use it to debug >computers! Yeah, that's the ticket. But it doesn't go to very high >frequencies... SO I'm going to use it to debug 9600 baud serial >connections! Yeah, that's the ticket. > >-Philip "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed May 30 13:37:57 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: HP 150 FA Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20010530143708.00a88220@mailhost.intellistar.net> I just found a HP 150 for sale on E-bay. Here's the URL for anyone that's interested. "http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1239995325". Joe From SPEDRAJA at mail.ono.es Wed May 30 22:35:25 2001 From: SPEDRAJA at mail.ono.es (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: Amazing Computing Projects from yesterday vol.1 (or What needing do...) References: <200105300237.VAA03492@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <00dc01c0e982$c0af2d20$0100a8c0@zeus> Hello. I'd like some of yours take a time to read this document that can be located in the URL http://www.cagindia.org/reports/commercial/1991_book11/annexureI.htm It's dated in 1991. It contains some amazing projects. Oh, by the way, finally we know where goes all these old irons lost: to India. And I appoint the convenience to try contact this guy to know if some of these projects was completed (mainly the diskette unit for the IBM 1401, or the COBOL compiler for this same computer). Regards Sergio Pedraja ---------- ANNEXURE-I (Referred to in Para 9.1.5) Projects undertaken under Research & Development Activities. 1. System Integration Project. To integrate an optimum medium large computer system with the processor and peripherals from various sources. 2. Add-on memory for EC-1030 system. To design and provide indigenously additional memory to EC-1030 computer system. 3. Enhancement to computer system with Line Printer and Card Reader add-on. 4. Enhancement to computers with disk and console sub-system add-on. 5. IBM 1401 enhancement project- to provide a faster processor with a larger memory and additional instruction set, keeping the same peripheral. 6. Add-on memory for EC-1040 computer system. To design and provide indigenously additional memory to EC-1040 computer system. 7. Input/output controllers for low speed peripherals such as card reader and line printer. 8. Computer enhancements with indigenous communication terminus. 9. Development of IBM 1401 simulator programme on R-1040 computer system. 10. Development of application software for gross industry application packages. 11. Enhancement of IBM 1620 computer system. To design and develop enhancement logic and interface hardware to attach a line printer. 12. Evaluation of Robotron Card Punch and verifier Model I. 13. Evaluation of Hindustan Teleprinter High Speed paper tape reader. 14. Evaluation of Robotron Card punch and verifier Model II. 15. Enhancement of Card Reader speed of IBM 447 Electronic Accounting Machine. 16. Enhancement of IBM 024 card punch to enable it to become 64 character machine from 48 character machine. 17. Design and development to replace obsolete assemblies in IBM unit red cord machines with indigenously available components. 18. Development of parts used in computer system. 19. Development of logic card test equipment. 20. Application software development on LSI-II Computer System. 21. 1620 Memory Enhancement. 22. 024/056 Logic in TTL/CMOS. 23. IBM Unit Record Machine replacement study. 24. Info Scriber 25. Special keyboards for Indian languages. 26. LSI-11 based online enquiry system directory enquiry etc. 27. Medical equipment based on micro-processors. 28. New Products like fibre optics special printers, bubbles etc. 29. Evaluation of l/D's. 30. pcb Card Repair Project. 31. Development of maintenance technique, diagnostic test equipment for effective maintenance. 32. Mini based system for RJE and Data Entry. 33. Graphic sub system. 34. Data based application packages. 35. Interactive Data Communication application packages. 36. Special application packages. 37. Image sub system. 38. Development of interactive work station. 39. Development of Computer System using mini computer network. 40. Hybrid system integration. 41. Floppy disc interface to IBM 1401 system. To design and develop a floppy disc interface to IBM 1401 system. 42. Development of COBOL compiler for enhancement of IBM 1401 processor. 43. Teleprinter interface job unit for mini computer. 44. Message switching system with micro processors. 45. Process control application with micro processors. 46. Communication application with micro processors and mini systems. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed May 30 13:36:02 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: Call for Resources for CDC 6000/Cyber 70 Series Emulator Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3715105D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Howdy! I'm gathering the resources necessary to build an emulator for the CDC 6000 Series, Cyber 70 Series, and Cyber 170 Series mainframes. I'll be pulling together existing works-in-progress and using Bob Supnik's SIMH as a framework. The fruits of this labor will be freely available to any and all, as with the DEC emulators. As to the CDC-owned software, efforts are underway which are hoped will lead to a hobbyist license, a la DEC's. I have a good start on the manuals I need (kept some from years ago, will acquire others). Additionally, I've sent two of my four old CDC 9-track tapes to be read and placed on CD-ROM as images. If any of you (whom I have not already been in contact with) have any printed source listings, coredumps, or best of all, 9- or 7-track tapes containing operating systems (the CDCs used a deadstart tape and a system library tape), would you be willing to have the tapes imaged-to-disk, and make the images available to this project? Thanks in advance, -doug quebbeman From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed May 30 14:39:19 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: New HD disks not working in 1541? In-Reply-To: Roger Merchberger "Re: New HD disks not working in 1541?" (May 30, 14:23) References: <3.0.1.32.20010530142356.01f8b700@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <10105302039.ZM7523@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 30, 14:23, Roger Merchberger wrote: > HD disks AFAIK won't work at all in any DD drive - the TPI (Tracks Per > Inch) are different. DD disks are 48TPI, HD disks are 96TPI. I have to say that this is not true. Plenty of DD disks are rated for 96 or 100 tpi. Furthermore, at the microscopic level, there is no difference between a DD disk sold for 96 tpi and one sold as 48 tpi. There might be more gross defects in older sold-as-48 tpi disk than in 96 tpi ones, I admit, and that could produce an error when narrow tracks are written. Nevertheless, the magnetic coercivity of the disk is the same in both cases. The difference between HD and DD is NOTHING to do with tracks per inch, it's ENTIRELY to do with the coercivity (which is a measure of the field strength required to produce the magentic polarisation used to write the data). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed May 30 14:26:42 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: New HD disks not working in 1541? In-Reply-To: Gene Buckle "Re: New HD disks not working in 1541?" (May 30, 11:02) References: Message-ID: <10105302026.ZM7517@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 30, 11:02, Gene Buckle wrote: > I don't ever recall seeing a HD disk with a hub ring. The only ones that > have them in my experience is the SD or DD disks. Oh, I've seen quite a few HD disks with hub rings. But most of the disks I've seen with hub rings have been relatively recent DD/SD. However, the reason I menmtioned it was that the 1541 owner insisted that she needed DD disks *because they had hub rings*, not because they are the correct coercivity; in fact she said she'd used a few HD disks but the lack of hub rings on some of them caused them not to work. So told her she was using the right disks (DD) but for the wrong reason. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From claudew at videotron.ca Wed May 30 14:55:28 2001 From: claudew at videotron.ca (Claude.W) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: Heathkit H89 - no vertical Message-ID: <00c901c0e942$79c46000$8e01cb18@videotron.ca> Hi I got a H89 with was seems like intermittent vertical problem. The usual jiggling, tapping and connector checking does not seem to get the vertical going or not. It was there at a few power ons. Yoke ok, 330uf on board just before yoke connector was replaced because suspect. Id like the schematics (scanned/emailed would be fine) for the board in the bottom of the H89 (video circuit). Thanks Claude http://computer_collector.tripod.com From Demon02554 at aol.com Wed May 30 14:56:00 2001 From: Demon02554 at aol.com (Demon02554@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: Washington D.C. Trip Message-ID: DC always has some nice stuff and the best part is that the Smithsonian is free I'm out there most weekends, and have seen the "Computers and Flight" exhibit several times... although i haven't been into the American History Museum in a long time...I'm gonna need to check that out...as soon as i can...maybe this weekend later, Robert Cobbins From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 30 15:37:21 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: Heathkit H89 - no vertical In-Reply-To: <00c901c0e942$79c46000$8e01cb18@videotron.ca> from "Claude.W" at May 30, 1 03:55:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1117 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010530/bdeda8c6/attachment.ksh From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Wed May 30 15:59:40 2001 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: What is this Apple printer? Message-ID: Hi all, I need to know what the name of an Apple A90303 printer is, hard to test the sucker when you don't know the name (e.g., ImageWriter II, etc.) Thanks, Will J _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 30 15:53:41 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: New HD disks not working in 1541? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20010530142356.01f8b700@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at May 30, 1 02:23:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1695 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010530/dd87c86e/attachment.ksh From vance at ikickass.org Wed May 30 17:13:50 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Vance Dereksen) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: Altair 8800 front panel lamps In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You could certainly use it to line your birdcage (if you have one, of course). Peace... Sridhar On Wed, 30 May 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > No. > > "Computer" was one of the most (if not THE most) poorly researched books > on computer history I've ever read. It contained numerous factual errors, > such as the one above. > > The authors obviously didn't take the time to do any fact checking or > proof-reading. Because of this, their book could be considered unreliable > drivel. I certainly wouldn't use it as the basis for any research. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > From vance at ikickass.org Wed May 30 17:22:17 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Vance Dereksen) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: Apple Turnover?(OT long, boring, maybe humor) In-Reply-To: <200105301747.f4UHln126697@mnmai05.mn.mediaone.net> Message-ID: If you assume you yourself don't exist, then what? (How existential of me.) Peace... Sridhar On Wed, 30 May 2001 bakcc@bigoakhill.com wrote: > Do not try and turn-over the apple. That's impossible. Instead... only try > to realize the truth. There is no apple. Then you will see it is not > the apple that turns-over... it is only yourself. > > -Bruce Keller > bakcc@bigoakhill.com > > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 30 19:10:05 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: What is this Apple printer? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Hi all, >I need to know what the name of an Apple A90303 printer is, hard to test the >sucker when you don't know the name (e.g., ImageWriter II, etc.) > >Thanks, > >Will J What really helps is the CORRECT model number, ;) A9M0303 ImageWriter I Printer Pretty much a generic bare bones impact printer, except real heavy. Not uncommon, and from my experience totally unwanted. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed May 30 19:12:53 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: Apple Turnover?(OT long, boring, maybe humor) In-Reply-To: References: <200105301747.f4UHln126697@mnmai05.mn.mediaone.net> Message-ID: >If you assume you yourself don't exist, then what? I collect, therefore I am. From terryc at woa.com.au Wed May 30 19:57:40 2001 From: terryc at woa.com.au (Terry Collins) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: OT & obscure humour; Re: Altair 8800 front panel lamps References: Message-ID: <3B159704.C8048AEC@woa.com.au> Vance Dereksen wrote: > > You could certainly use it to line your birdcage (if you have one, of > course). The budgie would object. It is used to more factual and accurate reading material.* (*I'm referring to an add for New Scientist magazine where the canary down the mine in it's bird cage is sitting with a gas mask on. The cage floor is lined with new scientist magazine - well I did warn you that it was obscure {:-). P.S. I'm thoroughly enjoying the "older" humour on this list. -- Terry Collins {:-)}}} Ph(02) 4627 2186 Fax(02) 4628 7861 email: terryc@woa.com.au www: http://www.woa.com.au WOA Computer Services "People without trees are like fish without clean water" From jss at ou.edu Wed May 30 20:26:30 2001 From: jss at ou.edu (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: Offered: classic manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <991272390.3b159dc6189cc@email.ou.edu> Quoting "r. 'bear' stricklin" : > - TRS-80 Level II BASIC Reference Manual. 2nd ed. 1979. ca. Wow, can I buy that one from you? That book introduced me as a kid to programming, and (with the help of Tron and Wargames) made me who I am! -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@ou.edu From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Wed May 30 20:08:38 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: Washington D.C. Trip In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010530210838.00e164f8@obregon.multi.net.co> The museums in DC are great, alright... but summer is the worst season to visit. Just too many people. carlos. At 03:56 PM 5/30/01 EDT, you wrote: >DC always has some nice stuff >and the best part is that the Smithsonian is free >I'm out there most weekends, and have seen the "Computers and Flight" exhibit several times... >although i haven't been into the American History Museum in a long time...I'm gonna need to check that out...as soon as i can...maybe this weekend > >later, >Robert Cobbins > -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From terryf at intersurf.com Wed May 30 21:49:05 2001 From: terryf at intersurf.com (terryf@intersurf.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <4.1.20010530214826.00989400@mail.intersurf.com> I've got a 9404-400 running v4r5. The system has a Qic tape drive and CD. I have a 8mm drive that I want to add to the system. The expansion chassis has room and open connectors. I hooked up the new drive, but I cannot seem to make the system 'see' it. What do I need to do to make the system see the drive so I can use it?? Any suggestions are appreciated, Thanks in advance Terry From terryf at intersurf.com Wed May 30 21:51:15 2001 From: terryf at intersurf.com (terryf@intersurf.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: As400 question Message-ID: <4.1.20010530215027.0098d670@mail.intersurf.com> Sorry, posted to wrong group Terry From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 30 22:01:08 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: Washington D.C. Trip In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20010530210838.00e164f8@obregon.multi.net.co> from "Carlos Murillo" at May 30, 2001 09:08:38 PM Message-ID: <200105310301.UAA10899@shell1.aracnet.com> When I was living there I found February to be the best time to visit, of course it was about the worst time to be outside :^) Summer and Holiday weekends were something of a nightmare. What gets me is it sounds like the computer exhibit at the Museum of American History hasn't changed any in the last 10+ years. Though it sounds like the Aerospace museum has updated their exhibit some. I'm pretty sure it didn't have a MicroVAX II the last time I was there, of course that was in '93, so it could simply be faulty memory on my part. Zane > The museums in DC are great, alright... but summer is > the worst season to visit. Just too many people. From chomko at greenbelt.com Wed May 30 22:04:01 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: Altair 8800 front panel lamps References: Message-ID: <3B15B4A1.70987036@greenbelt.com> Wait, now if this book is so bad, then I HAVE to see it! I mean there is value in something that is the example of what to avoid; and if not then at least for some entertainment value. Kind of reminds me of reading books that "support" the lone-nut theory WRT the JFK assassination. Eric Vance Dereksen wrote: > You could certainly use it to line your birdcage (if you have one, of > course). > > Peace... Sridhar > > On Wed, 30 May 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > No. > > > > "Computer" was one of the most (if not THE most) poorly researched books > > on computer history I've ever read. It contained numerous factual errors, > > such as the one above. > > > > The authors obviously didn't take the time to do any fact checking or > > proof-reading. Because of this, their book could be considered unreliable > > drivel. I certainly wouldn't use it as the basis for any research. > > > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From chomko at greenbelt.com Wed May 30 22:22:34 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: Washington D.C. Trip References: <527.550T1050T294239optimus@canit.se> <4.3.2.7.0.20010530082526.01d25ee0@pc> Message-ID: <3B15B8FA.548EA24E@greenbelt.com> My comments below. Jason McBrien wrote: > Didn't get anything from anywhere on my extended Memorial Day vacation to > Washington D.C. (Mostly running through museums) But I highly reccomend it > to anyone interested in historical computing devices. The main Smithsonian > museums I went to were the American History Museum and the Air and Space > museum. Both had special exhibits on information processing, and among the > highlights are: > > American History Museum "The History of Information Processing" > - An old mechanical logarithm calculator the size of a prone refrigerator > - Two original German Enigma machines, the three-rotor and four-rotor > models. These were > AWESOME, and all the true hax0rs stood around them in awe. > - The accumulators, main control pannel, power supplies and I/O tube grid > from the Eniac. > - A UNIVAC control unit. > - The MANIAC main processor unit (HUGE box) > - A Bendix mainframe, tape drive, and typewriter terminal > - An old tube-based IBM mainframe with drum hard drive > - An IBM/360 control unit. > - A DEC PDP/8 with transparent card cage > - A DEC PDP/15, the first computer used for fingerprint analysis by the FBI > - A Xerox Altos, the machine Jobs & Woz "Borrowed" From, with a strange > image > screen-burned into the monitor. > - Bugs taken from the DNC offices in the Watergate Building (Removed for > "Further Study" :) > -Various TI and HP calculators, 60's to 70's vintage, and a Pulsar watch > (The first digital watch) > - An Altair 8800, the original Apple I prototype model, and a Sol computer > - A TRS-80 I, an IBM PC, Commodore 64 (Late vintage it looks) a Sun-I > Workstation, and a Mac, > all propped up on stacks of old Byte, Computerworld, and Misc. other > magazines > - Various other nick-nacks, like an original Mac system disk and brochure > (If you can point, you can use a Mac) A HomeBrew Computer Club sweatshirt on > a mannequin that a French couple mistook for Steve Jobs (I'm pretty sure he > isn't, and has never been, of Asian descent. :) The camera used to broadcast > the first televised Presidential debate, bunches of other stuff I've > forgotten.. > Short Wozniack video describing mircos, etc. Also, a display of early microprocessors, including the 4004, 8008, 8080, 6800. At least these were there 2 years ago when I went. > > Air and Space Museum "Computers and Flight" > -A Cray 1, S/N 0014. Installed at the Goddard space center, I belive. > Which building at Goddard? Cripes I work there and am unaware of a Cray in my workplace backyard! Speaking of Goddard (GSFC), they have auctions and so called fixed-price sales on a regular basis. I have a basement full of their stuff. Over half of my collection has been purchased from GSFC auctions. I'm sure I could break some hearts here describing some of the stuff that went under the hammer and what prices they fetched. Seen many a mainframe go to the scarp yard. The worst case was an old SEL/Gould/Encore 32/77 that I recognized as a system that I worked on for years. > -Processor modules from an old model space shuttle (Can you say - > over-engineering?) > -Processor modules from the Iridium (defunct) system > -A MicroVAX II (I have one! Horray!) > -The slide rule Goddard used (Really classic computing :) > -An ANCIENT IBM mini that I couldn't recognize. It's panels were off. > - The last remaining piece of Sputnik; the pin used to keep the battery > contacts of the transmitter open, pulled just before launch to activate the > transmitter. > > Also, if you drive out to Rockville, a suburb of D.C., you can drive through > this technology park and see Celera and the Human Genome Project, both > within a mile of each other.. Please could you specify where in Rockville is the technology park? These would be excellent half day trips for me and my family. Eric P.S. I bought my SWTPC 6800 in Rockville, MD in 1976. From bdc at world.std.com Wed May 30 22:26:36 2001 From: bdc at world.std.com (Brian Chase) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: Washington D.C. Trip In-Reply-To: <200105310301.UAA10899@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 May 2001 healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > What gets me is it sounds like the computer exhibit at the Museum of > American History hasn't changed any in the last 10+ years. Though it sounds > like the Aerospace museum has updated their exhibit some. I'm pretty sure > it didn't have a MicroVAX II the last time I was there, of course that was > in '93, so it could simply be faulty memory on my part. And a MicroVAX II ??? Why? Not anything against the MicroVAX II as it's a machine which I really quite like, but I guess I don't understand it's significant place in history. -brian. From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed May 30 22:47:55 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: What is this Apple printer? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010530204718.0222d0f0@mail.zipcon.net> Imagewriter I is a C.Itoh mechanism IIRC. they generally never wear out :) serial based printer. At 05:10 PM 5/30/01 -0700, you wrote: > >Hi all, > >I need to know what the name of an Apple A90303 printer is, hard to test the > >sucker when you don't know the name (e.g., ImageWriter II, etc.) > > > >Thanks, > > > >Will J > >What really helps is the CORRECT model number, ;) >A9M0303 ImageWriter I Printer > >Pretty much a generic bare bones impact printer, except real heavy. Not >uncommon, and from my experience totally unwanted. From foxnhare at jps.net Wed May 30 22:47:04 2001 From: foxnhare at jps.net (Larry Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: no HD Disks in 1541/71 and hub rings References: <200105310302.WAA05650@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3B15BEAE.F94EF40C@jps.net> > Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 07:09:51 GMT > From: pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) > Subject: Re: New HD disks not working in 1541? > > On May 30, 3:52, Gunther Schadow wrote: > > > now that I have my old C64 setup back I found that I could not > > format newer 5.25" HD disks on the 1541 or 1571. Yep DD even reccomended for the 8050,8250 or SFD1001 (which are quad density drives), HDs 3.5" kinda work in 1581s but also aren't reccommended. Over the past few years I've cleaned out our local 'dollar'ish stores of 5.25" disk 10-packs when they get em. As for hub rings I heard they were required (for gripping purposes) for the older Apple drives (the metal boxy ones), maybe even for the 4040s, but I know without them on those old lever drives, you could sure mangle a non-protected center hole clamping down on one. Anyone have a hub-ring kit still? (reminds me of today's CD stompers) > As others have said, you need disks intended for single-density or double > density, not HD. I've also met one 1541 owner who swears that disks > without hub rings won't work in his drive (and never did) because the > mechanism doesn't grip them tightly enough (though I'm fairly sure that's > just due to a soft spring or a missing screw on the frame somewhere). -- 01000011 01001111 01001101 01001101 01001111 01000100 01001111 01010010 01000101 Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (209) 754-1363 300-14.4k bps Classic Commodore pages at: http://www.jps.net/foxnhare/commodore.html 01000011 01001111 01001101 01010000 01010101 01010100 01000101 01010010 01010011 From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 30 22:58:38 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: What is this Apple printer? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010530204718.0222d0f0@mail.zipcon.net> from "Geoff Reed" at May 30, 2001 08:47:55 PM Message-ID: <200105310358.UAA13185@shell1.aracnet.com> > At 05:10 PM 5/30/01 -0700, you wrote: > > >Hi all, > > >I need to know what the name of an Apple A90303 printer is, hard to test the > > >sucker when you don't know the name (e.g., ImageWriter II, etc.) > > > > > >Thanks, > > > > > >Will J > > > >What really helps is the CORRECT model number, ;) > >A9M0303 ImageWriter I Printer > > > >Pretty much a generic bare bones impact printer, except real heavy. Not > >uncommon, and from my experience totally unwanted. > > > Imagewriter I is a C.Itoh mechanism IIRC. they generally never wear out > :) serial based printer. The best part is the ribbons are still available. At least it's a nice fact if you're using a DEC LA75 printer with compatible ribbons :^) Zane From chomko at greenbelt.com Wed May 30 23:01:11 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: Washington D.C. Trip References: <200105310301.UAA10899@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <3B15C207.FFB2D692@greenbelt.com> healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > When I was living there I found February to be the best time to visit, of > course it was about the worst time to be outside :^) Summer and Holiday > weekends were something of a nightmare. > Hands down, the best time to see the museums in DC is Christmas eve. The town is deserted. My family and I have turned that day into sort of the "let's go to the Smithsonian day." Last two years have been great. We were actually able to park our vehicle on the street next to the mall. That's basically unheard of any other time. > > What gets me is it sounds like the computer exhibit at the Museum of > American History hasn't changed any in the last 10+ years. Though it sounds > like the Aerospace museum has updated their exhibit some. I'm pretty sure > it didn't have a MicroVAX II the last time I was there, of course that was > in '93, so it could simply be faulty memory on my part. > > Zane > > > The museums in DC are great, alright... but summer is > > the worst season to visit. Just too many people. From jlewczyk at speakeasy.net Wed May 30 23:48:21 2001 From: jlewczyk at speakeasy.net (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: Washington D.C. Trip Message-ID: <01a101c0e98c$ec0b4a30$6401a8c0@John> Jason, I agree that those museums are a MUST SEE for any vintage computer enthusiast! You forgot to mention (did you miss it?) that they have the origional "Mark-8 Microcomputer" that Jon Titus built as found on the cover of Radio Electronics in 1974! It was right next to the micros and micro magazines exhibit. Jon was a guest at VCF in 1999. I reckon that the burn-in on the Xerox Alto was an early "desktop theme" or "screen saver" (did the Alto have that feature?). If I recall correctly it reminded me of cartoon-like butterflies, flowers, or a bee or something like that. There were a number of Altos placed into service at the White House for use by secretaries there, and perhaps one of those is what ended up at the nearby Smithsonian. I understand that the secretaries that got to use them, loved 'em. Its a pity that none of the computers on display at the the museum actually are working. I think that is a major flaw in their presentation. I found the videos running as part of the Enigma exhibit and the Eniac exhibits to be particularly interesting. John Lewczyk jlewczyk@speakeasy.net classiccmp digest subscriber > Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 13:57:30 -0400 > From: "Jason McBrien" > Subject: Washington D.C. Trip > > Didn't get anything from anywhere on my extended Memorial Day vacation to > Washington D.C. (Mostly running through museums) But I highly reccomend it > to anyone interested in historical computing devices. The main Smithsonian > museums I went to were the American History Museum and the Air and Space > museum. Both had special exhibits on information processing, and among the > highlights are: > *snip* From claudew at videotron.ca Thu May 31 00:00:40 2001 From: claudew at videotron.ca (Claude.W) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: Heathkit H89 - no vertical (fixed - open L201) References: <00c901c0e942$79c46000$8e01cb18@videotron.ca> Message-ID: <005f01c0e98e$a3b12fa0$8e01cb18@videotron.ca> Hi I had intermittent (1-2 out of approx 50 power ons) vertical on a newly acquired H89. L201 in vertical section had opened up - 680uh... I replaced with the closest I could find : a 1000uh....works fine. I think a previous owner had noticed same problem because the vertical yoke connector pins had been bent/twisted and tighted several times and one of them just came apart when I did the same thing...check the vertical yoke connector...Problem was most probably intermittent and he taught it was the connector and tightened connections when vertical would go out. I must admit these things arent really a pleasure to take apart... Thanks those who offered help Claude ----- Original Message ----- From: Claude.W To: Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 3:55 PM Subject: Heathkit H89 - no vertical > Hi > > I got a H89 with was seems like intermittent vertical problem. > > The usual jiggling, tapping and connector checking does not seem to get the > vertical going or not. > > It was there at a few power ons. > > Yoke ok, 330uf on board just before yoke connector was replaced because > suspect. > > Id like the schematics (scanned/emailed would be fine) for the board in the > bottom of the H89 (video circuit). > > Thanks > Claude > http://computer_collector.tripod.com > > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu May 31 02:10:31 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:51 2005 Subject: no HD Disks in 1541/71 and hub rings In-Reply-To: Larry Anderson "no HD Disks in 1541/71 and hub rings" (May 30, 20:47) References: <200105310302.WAA05650@opal.tseinc.com> <3B15BEAE.F94EF40C@jps.net> Message-ID: <10105310810.ZM10068@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 30, 20:47, Larry Anderson wrote: > As for hub rings I heard they were required (for gripping purposes) for > the older Apple drives (the metal boxy ones), maybe even for the 4040s, > but I know without them on those old lever drives, you could sure mangle > a non-protected center hole clamping down on one. Yes, the main reason for hub rings was to minimise the damage when you did that :-) Our Apple Disk ][s and Commodore 4040/8050 drives never needed disks with hub rings when they were new, and the ones I have now still don't. > Anyone have a hub-ring kit still? (reminds me of today's CD stompers) Alas, no. I remember them, though. > > As others have said, you need disks intended for single-density or double > > density, not HD. I've also met one 1541 owner who swears that disks > > without hub rings won't work in his drive (and never did) because the > > mechanism doesn't grip them tightly enough (though I'm fairly sure that's > > just due to a soft spring or a missing screw on the frame somewhere). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From fantom4 at fantom5.freeserve.co.uk Thu May 31 03:58:27 2001 From: fantom4 at fantom5.freeserve.co.uk (PAtrick) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:52 2005 Subject: Compaq 286 SLT Power PInout Message-ID: <000b01c0e9af$e5c7d080$95c1893e@freeserve.co.uk> Hi Does anyone have any idea of the volts needed for the six pins of the SLT's power point on the laptop As I would like to get this laptop up and running, It works but i need better way of powering it. Thanks email fantom4@fantom5.freeserve.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010531/994ffe4a/attachment.html From padf at ihug.co.nz Thu May 31 03:56:40 2001 From: padf at ihug.co.nz (Patrick Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:52 2005 Subject: Altair 8800 front panel lamps In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Gidday Tony On 31-May-01, you wrote: >> >> >> I've just been reading "Computer: A History of the >> Information Machine", by Martin Campbell-Kelly and WIlliam >> Aspray. It mentions the Altair 8800 (on page 240) and >> describes the front panel: >> >> When loaded, the program would run; but the only evidence >> of its execution was the change in the shifting pattern of >> the neon bulbs on the front. >> >> Neon bulbs? Did the Altair really have neon bulbs on the >> front panel? I would have expected LEDs -- can anyone >> clarify this, please? > The schematic I've just looked at shows LEDs. FWIW the schematics of a > couple of other S100 front panels also show LEDs for the monitoring > lights. > Neons were not at all common on transistorised (or IC-based) computers. Not surprising, since neon needs 90V to light it. Regards -- *Patrick Ford Auckland, New Zealand* */#icq#/ 51642681* EXPERIENCE: What you get when you don't get what you want. Support *Open Directory Project* NO banners, NO junk--just information. *ODP *is built by volunteers and owned by the community . -------> http://dmoz.org <-----------Check it out From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu May 31 06:10:06 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:52 2005 Subject: Offered: classic manuals Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37151065@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Quoting "r. 'bear' stricklin" : > > - TRS-80 Level II BASIC Reference Manual. 2nd ed. 1979. ca. > > Wow, can I buy that one from you? That book introduced me as a kid > to programming, and (with the help of Tron and Wargames) made me > who I am! If he doesn't let go of it, get back to me, I think that's the trash-80 book I pulled off a garbage pile a few years back. It won't be in pristine condition, of course. Just lemme know... Regards, -doug quebbeman From engdahl at cle.ab.com Thu May 31 07:41:10 2001 From: engdahl at cle.ab.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:52 2005 Subject: booting from RQDX3 Message-ID: <00a401c0e9ce$f8f1b9e0$1e4099a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> How does a PDP-11 boot from an RQDX3 controller? I have several 11/23's based on the KDF11-AA CPU, which has no on-board boot ROM. The Andromeda UDC11 disk controller that most of these use contains the boot ROM. These machines are in a 4-slot dual-wide card cage which is full. There is the CPU, a memory card, the disk controller, and a serial card. A couple of these machines are missing the disk controller. RQDX3's seem to be readily available, and there is adequate documentation of the card on the web (jumpers, cable pinouts, etc). Will the KDF11-AA be able to boot from an RQDX3? If not, can anyone suggest an good alternative? -- Jonathan Engdahl Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer 24800 Tungsten Road Advanced Technology Euclid, OH 44117 USA Euclid Labs http://users.safeaccess.com/engdahl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010531/0e475fbc/attachment.html From at258 at osfn.org Thu May 31 07:57:24 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:52 2005 Subject: er In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37151065@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: I just returned from a flying trip to Newark, Ny and returned with a working IBM Series 1, dated 1979. Also with it were a number of spare cpu's a complete 4997 and asorted parts. The only thing really missing were side skins. I also was given a genuine IBM timeclock, possibly as old as the late '30's, as it eschews the IBM name for "International" There may be some spare ADM31's if anyone is interested. M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From guerney at bigpond.com Thu May 31 07:57:28 2001 From: guerney at bigpond.com (Phil Guerney) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:52 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Clones References: Message-ID: <004801c0e9d1$3fece3e0$7937fea9@Guerney> ----- Original Message ----- From: John Honniball > I have a machine which I believe is a TRS-80 clone, > although I don't know if it's fully compatible or some sort > of upgrade. It's a Video Genie, and I seem to recall some > connection with Dick Smith Electronics of Australia... > Anybody know any more about this? It seems it is going to take someone from down here to answer this. The Dick Smith System 80 is the same as that sold by EACA, Hong Kong, into Britain as the Video Genie and into the North American market as PMC-80. For all the information you could want, refer to: http://www.webweavers.co.nz/system-80/ Phil G (owner of several working versions of home and business System-80 models with expansion boxes and drives...) (Brisbane, Australia) From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Thu May 31 07:15:04 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:03:55 2005 Subject: Washington D.C. Trip In-Reply-To: References: <200105310301.UAA10899@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010531081504.00e18dc4@obregon.multi.net.co> At 10:26 PM 5/30/01 -0500, you wrote: >And a MicroVAX II ??? Why? Not anything against the MicroVAX II as it's >a machine which I really quite like, but I guess I don't understand >it's significant place in history. > >-brian. In university settings, the introduction of the uVax II marked the point when each research group or individual professors could afford to have their own number cruncher, customized with the software that was relevant for a particular group. Before then, you needed to resort to university or department-wide facilities. This is in the US. In less rich countries, the uVax II meant that the engineering school could finally afford their number cruncher. Quite a landmark by my standards. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu May 31 08:24:10 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:01 2005 Subject: Call for Resources for CDC 6000/Cyber 70 Series Emulator In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3715105D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3B16621A.23623.430753D7@localhost> > I'm gathering the resources necessary to build an emulator > for the CDC 6000 Series, Cyber 70 Series, and Cyber 170 > Series mainframes. I'll be pulling together existing > works-in-progress and using Bob Supnik's SIMH as a framework. > The fruits of this labor will be freely available to any > and all, as with the DEC emulators. As to the CDC-owned > software, efforts are underway which are hoped will lead > to a hobbyist license, a la DEC's. > I have a good start on the manuals I need (kept some from > years ago, will acquire others). Additionally, I've sent > two of my four old CDC 9-track tapes to be read and placed > on CD-ROM as images. > If any of you (whom I have not already been in contact with) > have any printed source listings, coredumps, or best of all, > 9- or 7-track tapes containing operating systems (the CDCs > used a deadstart tape and a system library tape), would you > be willing to have the tapes imaged-to-disk, and make the > images available to this project? You should eventualy talk to John Zabolitzky (He is off list at the moment) at Jgzabol@aol.com - If there is something to know about Cyber mainframes, he does. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From tony.eros at machm.org Thu May 31 08:42:02 2001 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:01 2005 Subject: Call for Resources for CDC 6000/Cyber 70 Series Emulator In-Reply-To: <3B16621A.23623.430753D7@localhost> References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3715105D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010531093836.0375fa38@mail.njd.concentric.com> Does this mean I might eventually run PLATO on a simh-emulated CYBER system? Now, if I could just remember how to play 'Airfight'... :-) -- Tony At 03:24 PM 5/31/2001 +0200, you wrote: > > I'm gathering the resources necessary to build an emulator > > for the CDC 6000 Series, Cyber 70 Series, and Cyber 170 > > Series mainframes. I'll be pulling together existing > > works-in-progress and using Bob Supnik's SIMH as a framework. > > > The fruits of this labor will be freely available to any > > and all, as with the DEC emulators. As to the CDC-owned > > software, efforts are underway which are hoped will lead > > to a hobbyist license, a la DEC's. > > > I have a good start on the manuals I need (kept some from > > years ago, will acquire others). Additionally, I've sent > > two of my four old CDC 9-track tapes to be read and placed > > on CD-ROM as images. > > > If any of you (whom I have not already been in contact with) > > have any printed source listings, coredumps, or best of all, > > 9- or 7-track tapes containing operating systems (the CDCs > > used a deadstart tape and a system library tape), would you > > be willing to have the tapes imaged-to-disk, and make the > > images available to this project? > >You should eventualy talk to John Zabolitzky (He is off list >at the moment) at Jgzabol@aol.com - If there is something >to know about Cyber mainframes, he does. > >Gruss >H. > >-- >VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen >http://www.vcfe.org/ From mtapley at swri.edu Thu May 31 08:48:22 2001 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:01 2005 Subject: OT Iridium (Was: Re: classiccmp-digest V1 #615) In-Reply-To: <200105310302.WAA05650@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: Jason McBrien said: >...went to were the American History Museum and the Air and Space >museum. Both had special exhibits on information processing, and among the >highlights are: > ... >- -Processor modules from the Iridium (defunct) system ... Not yet, at any rate. My dad just got a phone from Motorola. Size of an old (70's) handy-talky, more or less. After some trouble figuring out the registration, dialing sequence, etc., he managed to phone home with it (Yes, his initials are BT - no Steven Spielberg puns, please) and there was a ~ 0.5 second delay between his lips moving and the sound coming out of the home phone (he was standing on the balcony at the time). Apparently DOD paid for the system and, to offset part of their cost, is marketing the hand units (through Worldcom) to the few customers who need communications where cell phones don't yet go. (Dad's going sailing in the North Sea, then to a launch site in the Ukraine.) I'm rambling - anyway, Iridium was still up, as of Sunday night. - Mark From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu May 31 09:01:20 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:01 2005 Subject: OT Iridium (Was: Re: classiccmp-digest V1 #615) In-Reply-To: References: <200105310302.WAA05650@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010531065925.0215b8f0@208.226.86.10> Iridium is not dead, it is simply a military network now. Boeing "bought it" out of bankruptcy court for about $25 million (not a bad deal) and the Pentagon has a long term contract to use it. The current plan is to not send up any spares and decommission the system when enough birds run out of gas that they can't keep the constellation up. --Chuck (former IRID investor) From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu May 31 09:49:38 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:01 2005 Subject: Call for Resources for CDC 6000/Cyber 70 Series Emulator Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37151076@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Does this mean I might eventually run PLATO on a > simh-emulated CYBER system? Not an impossibility, but we gotta have an OS before we can even think about running PLATO... > Now, if I could just remember how to play 'Airfight'... :-) Hmmm.. Don't remember that, but I do remember Empire, and some other Star Trek game... as well as the coolest LISP and Pascal interpreter environments I ever used. -dq From fernande at internet1.net Thu May 31 09:52:36 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: What is this Apple printer? References: <200105310358.UAA13185@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <3B165AB4.FCF7C88F@internet1.net> Yup, I bought ribbons at Staples about a year ago for mine. Unfortunetly I haven't used it yet. I haven't taken the time to set uo my Apple //e for printer use! Also, to the original poster..... what do you want to know? I might have some of the docs for it, and can look up info if you need it..... providing I can find the docs :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > The best part is the ribbons are still available. At least it's a nice fact > if you're using a DEC LA75 printer with compatible ribbons :^) > > Zane From jss at ou.edu Thu May 31 09:53:23 2001 From: jss at ou.edu (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: you vs. museums In-Reply-To: <007001c0e822$45a44720$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <3B130289.C9B5B858@ix.netcom.com> from <"Campbell"@May> "106:59:42 pm" <005701c0e821$b1d401c0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <007001c0e822$45a44720$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <991320803.3b165ae35bd85@email.ou.edu> Quoting John Allain : > but has anyone at one of these museums ever attempted to defend > their postion by saying "Authentic peroid components only"? I'm sure some would say that. The problem there is that, someday, "authentic period components" are going to be nonexistent, unless someone provides a way to manufacture more (replicators, maybe?). If they want a working system, they must be prepared to sacrifice the "componental periodic authenticity" (?) of the machine. Sorry, but stuff breaks. Replicators... hmm... "Solder. Tin Lead. Hot." -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@ou.edu From fernande at internet1.net Thu May 31 10:08:28 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: OT Iridium (Was: Re: classiccmp-digest V1 #615) References: Message-ID: <3B165E6C.69859855@internet1.net> What is Iridium? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Mark Tapley wrote: > > Jason McBrien said: > > >...went to were the American History Museum and the Air and Space > >museum. Both had special exhibits on information processing, and among the > >highlights are: > > > ... > >- -Processor modules from the Iridium (defunct) system > ... > > Not yet, at any rate. My dad just got a phone from Motorola. Size of an old > (70's) handy-talky, more or less. After some trouble figuring out the > registration, dialing sequence, etc., he managed to phone home with it > (Yes, his initials are BT - no Steven Spielberg puns, please) and there was > a ~ 0.5 second delay between his lips moving and the sound coming out of > the home phone (he was standing on the balcony at the time). Apparently DOD > paid for the system and, to offset part of their cost, is marketing the > hand units (through Worldcom) to the few customers who need communications > where cell phones don't yet go. (Dad's going sailing in the North Sea, then > to a launch site in the Ukraine.) I'm rambling - anyway, Iridium was still > up, as of Sunday night. > - Mark From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu May 31 10:20:44 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: Washington D.C. Trip In-Reply-To: <01a101c0e98c$ec0b4a30$6401a8c0@John> Message-ID: >I reckon that the burn-in on the Xerox Alto was an early "desktop theme" or >"screen saver" (did the Alto have that feature?). If I recall correctly it >reminded me of cartoon-like butterflies, flowers, or a bee or something >>like that. I always wondered if that was actually screen burn in. As crazy as it might sound I got the feeling that was actually a clear 'decal' of some sort applied to the monitor. Don't ask me why on earth I should get such a strange impression though. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From chomko at greenbelt.com Thu May 31 10:19:52 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: Washington D.C. Trip References: <01a101c0e98c$ec0b4a30$6401a8c0@John> Message-ID: <3B166118.7C590878@greenbelt.com> John Lewczyk wrote: > Jason, > > I agree that those museums are a MUST SEE for any vintage computer > enthusiast! > > You forgot to mention (did you miss it?) that they have the origional > "Mark-8 Microcomputer" that Jon Titus built as found on the cover of Radio > Electronics in 1974! It was right next to the micros and micro magazines > exhibit. Jon was a guest at VCF in 1999. > > I reckon that the burn-in on the Xerox Alto was an early "desktop theme" or > "screen saver" (did the Alto have that feature?). If I recall correctly it > reminded me of cartoon-like butterflies, flowers, or a bee or something like > that. There were a number of Altos placed into service at the White House > for use by secretaries there, and perhaps one of those is what ended up at > the nearby Smithsonian. I understand that the secretaries that got to use > them, loved 'em. > > Its a pity that none of the computers on display at the the museum actually > are working. I think that is a major flaw in their presentation. The problem with working machines with millions of people tocuhing them over the years is that the machines tend to break. Even the modern display terminals used for presentation are in constant need of repair due to fingers smashing and otherwise folks that don't respect the equipment out of common courtesy. Computers don't hold up well to abuse. Its a shame but the way that it is. Eric > > > I found the videos running as part of the Enigma exhibit and the Eniac > exhibits to be particularly interesting. > > John Lewczyk > > jlewczyk@speakeasy.net > classiccmp digest subscriber > > > Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 13:57:30 -0400 > > From: "Jason McBrien" > > Subject: Washington D.C. Trip > > > > Didn't get anything from anywhere on my extended Memorial Day vacation to > > Washington D.C. (Mostly running through museums) But I highly reccomend it > > to anyone interested in historical computing devices. The main Smithsonian > > museums I went to were the American History Museum and the Air and Space > > museum. Both had special exhibits on information processing, and among the > > highlights are: > > *snip* From jlewczyk at speakeasy.net Thu May 31 11:07:38 2001 From: jlewczyk at speakeasy.net (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: Can anyone here burn a MMI6309 PROM for a Lisa? Message-ID: <004101c0e9eb$d12b34f0$6401a8c0@John> I'm looking for help making a 256*8 Tri-state PROM for the CPU card of a Lisa. Its a MMI 6409-1N part. I don't have a data sheet and I don't have the means to burn one. If I supply the part and the data, can anyone here burn a few of them for me? Alleged parts equivilent to the MMI 6409-1N are: Signetics 82S135 National 74S471 TI 28L22 Reply to me off list via jlewczyk@speakeasy.net if you'd prefer. Thanks John ---------------------------- classiccmp digest subscriber From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu May 31 11:04:39 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: Museum Computers (was Re: Washington D.C. Trip In-Reply-To: <3B166118.7C590878@greenbelt.com> References: <01a101c0e98c$ec0b4a30$6401a8c0@John> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010531085400.021b48d0@208.226.86.10> >The problem with working machines with millions of people tocuhing them over >the years >is that the machines tend to break. Even the modern display terminals >used for >presentation are >in constant need of repair due to fingers smashing and otherwise folks that >don't respect the equipment out of common courtesy. Computers don't hold up >well to abuse. Its a shame but the way that it is. >Eric This is one of the problems I think would be fun to attack if I had a suitable patron. Building I/O devices that could stand up to the kind of abuse that museums get. From foo at siconic.com Thu May 31 10:14:50 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: er In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 31 May 2001, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > I just returned from a flying trip to Newark, Ny and returned with a > working IBM Series 1, dated 1979. Also with it were a number of spare > cpu's a complete 4997 and asorted parts. The only thing really missing > were side skins. I also was given a genuine IBM timeclock, possibly as > old as the late '30's, as it eschews the IBM name for "International" Speaking of IBM timeclocks, look at this baby in the IBM museum in Singelfinded, Germany: http://www.siconic.com/crap/IBM%20Time%20Clock%20(IBM%20Museum,%20Singelfinden,%20Germany).jpg If you ever get out to the southern region of Germany (Singelfinden is two hours northwest of Munich) I highly recommend you take the time to visit the IBM Museum there. Hundreds of IBM machines going back to the Hollerith census tabulating machine (well, a replica at least), ALL WORKING!! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu May 31 11:22:29 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: er In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3B168BE5.32320.43AA94BF@localhost> > > I just returned from a flying trip to Newark, Ny and returned with a > > working IBM Series 1, dated 1979. Also with it were a number of spare > > cpu's a complete 4997 and asorted parts. The only thing really missing > > were side skins. I also was given a genuine IBM timeclock, possibly as > > old as the late '30's, as it eschews the IBM name for "International" > Speaking of IBM timeclocks, look at this baby in the IBM museum in > Singelfinded, Germany: > http://www.siconic.com/crap/IBM%20Time%20Clock%20(IBM%20Museum,%20Singelfinden,%20Germany).jpg > If you ever get out to the southern region of Germany (Singelfinden is two > hours northwest of Munich) I highly recommend you take the time to visit > the IBM Museum there. Hundreds of IBM machines going back to the > Hollerith census tabulating machine (well, a replica at least), ALL > WORKING!! Errr... (*G*) Sallam, it's Sindelfingen, and a suburb of Stuttgart (Please never tell this to one of the locals, they still belive to live in a city of their own :) - this may help to locate it a bit better for some members. Still, the Museum is woth more than one visit ... but it's only open every thursday afternoon from 14:00 to 17:00 - and only on an apointment base. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From dogas at bellsouth.net Thu May 31 11:39:03 2001 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Clones References: <200105301641.f4UGftG06882@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <002501c0e9f0$3451e8e0$0f19d7d1@DOMAIN> From: Eric Dittman > What I meant was Dennis's personal LNW-80. As a fan of his articles > and book, being able to buy his personal LNW-80 was neat. I agree... I also bought a Model 1 monitor off him long time ago. ;) And speaking of LNW... Anyone have docs (service or any) for the LNW (bare board) EI for the Model 1? Cheers - Mike From mac at Wireless.Com Thu May 31 12:04:43 2001 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: Museum Computers (was Re: Washington D.C. Trip In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010531085400.021b48d0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: Perhaps these so-called "museums" need to visit SF's Exploratorium? There, everything is meant to be "hands-on". This doesn't mean that things don't break from time to time, but the percentage of operational exhibits there is greater than any other public museum I've seen. Mind you, I'm not saying people should put an Eniac cabinet out where people can slobber over it, but I think it would be cool to be able to remote-control these older machines (I dunno, like a 360/50 or something) via modern interfaces - safely away from the original equipment, but yet behind glass - so you can see the original machine running. So yeah, Chuck, I agree! -Mike On Thu, 31 May 2001, Chuck McManis wrote: > Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 09:04:39 -0700 > From: Chuck McManis > Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Museum Computers (was Re: Washington D.C. Trip > > > >The problem with working machines with millions of people tocuhing them over > >the years > >is that the machines tend to break. Even the modern display terminals > >used for > >presentation are > >in constant need of repair due to fingers smashing and otherwise folks that > >don't respect the equipment out of common courtesy. Computers don't hold up > >well to abuse. Its a shame but the way that it is. > >Eric > > > This is one of the problems I think would be fun to attack if I had a > suitable patron. Building I/O devices that could stand up to the kind of > abuse that museums get. > > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu May 31 11:52:22 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: Xerox-Flies (was: Washington D.C. Trip) In-Reply-To: References: <01a101c0e98c$ec0b4a30$6401a8c0@John> Message-ID: <3B1692E6.18143.43C5F2EA@localhost> > >I reckon that the burn-in on the Xerox Alto was an early "desktop theme" or > >"screen saver" (did the Alto have that feature?). If I recall correctly it > >reminded me of cartoon-like butterflies, flowers, or a bee or something > >>like that. > I always wondered if that was actually screen burn in. As crazy as it > might sound I got the feeling that was actually a clear 'decal' of some > sort applied to the monitor. Don't ask me why on earth I should get such a > strange impression though. Well, maybe they did run the 'fly-swat' Game for a long time ... I don't recall the real name. You hat to 'catch' flies that apeared around your window with a mouse klick ... they seamed to be random, but they wheren't ... so if you just let this game run for a long time, these flies will result in a visible burn in on your nice big B&W screen. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From bshannon at tiac.net Thu May 31 12:15:30 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: Hello classic computer fans... References: <527.550T1050T294239optimus@canit.se> <4.3.2.7.0.20010530082526.01d25ee0@pc> Message-ID: <3B167C32.D74A8E40@tiac.net> John Foust wrote: > At 11:03 PM 5/29/01 -0400, Bob Shannon wrote: > >Lastly I have a collection of old software for some of the machines (HP's > >mainly). I have also > >designed a photo-tape reader emulator that loads paper tape binary images > >from ROM, so the old machines can be seen in action. > > I'd like to hear more about that... > > - John The first implementation uses a small Z-8 based controller board wired to a bank of 74LS169 counters. These counters address several EPROMs that hold binary images of the original paper tapes. A single EPROM is selected by a tape selection switch. The Z8 also talks to some handshaking signals from an original HP Microcircuit interface board jumpered to act exactly like the HP high-speed photo tape reader interface (but at TTL levels). On request (control set) from the HP mini, the Z8 (programmed in tiny-basic) handshakes with the micro circuit I/F board to transfer the data from the EPROMs, and increments the 74LS169 counters. The Z8 had been 'hacked' to have non volitle RAM memory, but this has stopped working and the tiny-basic source (about 10 lines) needs to be reloaded each time the power is removed from the Z8. I'm soon to replace the Z8 with a PIC16F877 that will also replace the TTL address counters. This enhanced version may also support reading physical paper tapes into flash ROM, so I can make ROM images from original media using a generic parallel interface tape reader I have laying around. The tape images I have now were produced by connecting the Z8 to the reader, and sending the data to a PC where it was burnt into EPROM. For some reason, the image of BASIC I have does not load correctly, but I do have good images of OCTAPUS-C for the HP211x machines. Somehwhere I had the source code for OCTAPUS, but I'm unable to locate it. From jbmcb at hotmail.com Thu May 31 12:12:35 2001 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: Museum Computers (was Re: Washington D.C. Trip) References: Message-ID: I agree, a large percentage of the hands-on exhibits at the history museum were out of order. I suppose you can't hope for too much with the Government running things, and not charging admission, which I respect. A connection to a 360 or 370 would be interesting, tn3270's are a dime a dozen these days. I think the Boston Computer Museum had a Vax available as a BBS for a while.. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Cheponis" To: Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 1:04 PM Subject: Re: Museum Computers (was Re: Washington D.C. Trip > Perhaps these so-called "museums" need to visit SF's Exploratorium? There, > everything is meant to be "hands-on". This doesn't mean that things don't > break from time to time, but the percentage of operational exhibits there > is greater than any other public museum I've seen. > > Mind you, I'm not saying people should put an Eniac cabinet out where > people can slobber over it, but I think it would be cool to be able to > remote-control these older machines (I dunno, like a 360/50 or something) > via modern interfaces - safely away from the original equipment, but > yet behind glass - so you can see the original machine running. > > So yeah, Chuck, I agree! > > -Mike > > On Thu, 31 May 2001, Chuck McManis wrote: > > > Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 09:04:39 -0700 > > From: Chuck McManis > > Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Museum Computers (was Re: Washington D.C. Trip > > > > > > >The problem with working machines with millions of people tocuhing them over > > >the years > > >is that the machines tend to break. Even the modern display terminals > > >used for > > >presentation are > > >in constant need of repair due to fingers smashing and otherwise folks that > > >don't respect the equipment out of common courtesy. Computers don't hold up > > >well to abuse. Its a shame but the way that it is. > > >Eric > > > > > > This is one of the problems I think would be fun to attack if I had a > > suitable patron. Building I/O devices that could stand up to the kind of > > abuse that museums get. > > > > > > From engdahl at cle.ab.com Thu May 31 12:26:42 2001 From: engdahl at cle.ab.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: Can anyone here burn a MMI6309 PROM for a Lisa? References: <004101c0e9eb$d12b34f0$6401a8c0@John> Message-ID: <032f01c0e9f6$dc095680$1e4099a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> I have a very old Data I/O 29B here with a UniPak 2B. The cheat sheet says I can burn a TI 29L22, a NAT 74LS471, and a PHL 82S135. It might be worth a try if nothing better turns up. There are companies that will do this for $$$. -- Jonathan Engdahl Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer 24800 Tungsten Road Advanced Technology Euclid, OH 44117 USA Euclid Labs http://users.safeaccess.com/engdahl ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Lewczyk" To: Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 12:07 PM Subject: Can anyone here burn a MMI6309 PROM for a Lisa? > I'm looking for help making a 256*8 Tri-state PROM for the CPU card of a > Lisa. > Its a MMI 6409-1N part. I don't have a data sheet and I don't have the means > to burn one. > > If I supply the part and the data, can anyone here burn a few of them for > me? > > Alleged parts equivilent to the MMI 6409-1N are: > Signetics 82S135 > National 74S471 > TI 28L22 > > Reply to me off list via jlewczyk@speakeasy.net if you'd prefer. > > Thanks > > John > ---------------------------- > classiccmp digest subscriber > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu May 31 12:28:45 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Clones Message-ID: <01May31.132811edt.119046@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >From: Eric Dittman >> What I meant was Dennis's personal LNW-80. As a fan of his articles >> and book, being able to buy his personal LNW-80 was neat. >I agree... I also bought a Model 1 monitor off him long time ago. ;) And >speaking of LNW... Anyone have docs (service or any) for the LNW (bare >board) EI for the Model 1? That's like a couple of years ago I had the opportunity to buy Roy Soltoff's TRS-80 Model 2000 he had bought for development purposes. He even had the original receipt with it. It's nice knowing the history of a given machine. Jeff From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu May 31 12:37:06 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: booting from RQDX3 In-Reply-To: "Jonathan Engdahl" "booting from RQDX3" (May 31, 8:41) References: <00a401c0e9ce$f8f1b9e0$1e4099a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> Message-ID: <10105311837.ZM10403@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 31, 8:41, Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > > [ Attachment (multipart/alternative): 2810 bytes ] > A couple of these machines are missing the disk controller. RQDX3's seem > to be readily available, and there is adequate documentation of the card > on the web (jumpers, cable pinouts, etc). Will the KDF11-AA be able to > boot from an RQDX3? Not in the sense of running boot code from an RQDX3 as it has no boot ROM. It's possible to use a KDF11-A or KDJ11-A with an MXV11-B -- those were common combinations -- with the MXV providing RAM, SLUs, and boot ROM in a single slot. An alternative is an MRV11-D which supports the same boot ROMs. Or you could use microPDP-11 boot ROMs in a modified BDV11, but that would take up two slots. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu May 31 12:36:14 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: er In-Reply-To: Sellam Ismail "RE: er" (May 31, 8:14) References: Message-ID: <10105311836.ZM10399@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 31, 8:14, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Speaking of IBM timeclocks, look at this baby in the IBM museum in > Singelfinded, Germany: > http://www.siconic.com/crap/IBM%20Time%20Clock%20(IBM%20Museum,%20Singelfinden,%20Germany).jpg Er, don't you mean Sindelfingen, Sellam? :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 31 12:36:43 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: OT & obscure humour; Re: Altair 8800 front panel lamps In-Reply-To: <3B159704.C8048AEC@woa.com.au> from "Terry Collins" at May 31, 1 10:57:40 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 430 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010531/f5bf27c1/attachment.ksh From bshannon at tiac.net Thu May 31 12:53:18 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: MS-DOS cross assembler for HP211x machines. References: <527.550T1050T294239optimus@canit.se> <3B1462EE.587A482@tiac.net> <001901c0e857$b46cc580$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <3B16850D.6D7ACAE3@tiac.net> For those interested in a cross assemlber for theHP mini's... I found C source code for a HP 2100 cross assemlber on the HP2100 archive site (which seems to be down today). Not being a C person (that is, not able to read C, much less code in it), I handed a copy over to a friend who tinkers with C a little. He managed to convert the original source into something that would compile on what he described as an obsolete C compiler (Borland?). The resulting DOS code bascially seems to work, with one known bug so far. In the hpasm.lst output file, and instruction that have bit 15 set are listed incorrectly. For example, 102315 will appear as 3777770215. A simple search and replace operation on the listing file corrects this problem. I have not fully verified the binary output, but it appears to be a block-loader compatible tape image. If anyone is interested, I can email them the original C source from the 2100 archive, the modified .ccp file that compiled, and the resulting .exe file. I have scuessfully assembled small programs (blinking lights code of course) with this xasm that matches the ancient hand-written code taped to the inside of the front panel, so its a start anyway. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 31 13:01:18 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: Heathkit H89 - no vertical (fixed - open L201) In-Reply-To: <005f01c0e98e$a3b12fa0$8e01cb18@videotron.ca> from "Claude.W" at May 31, 1 01:00:40 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1006 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010531/92fbfb71/attachment.ksh From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Thu May 31 13:15:40 2001 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: Museum Computers (was Re: Washington D.C. Trip Message-ID: The Exploratorium devotes a fairly large amount of resources to exhibit maintenance, so they have more operational exhibits than most museums of their type. As to making stronger I/O devices, the first thing you need to do is observe a bunch of grade school/middle school kids when they come to a computer in a museum exhibit: they don't look at what they are supposed to do, they just start _pounding_ on the keyboard/input. What we did at the Field Museum of Natural History in Chicago (where I designed and programmed 10+ computer "interactives" for exhibits in the early 90's) was to use arcade-game trackballs and switches made by Happ Controls. At the time we started, these trackballs were not PC compatible. They did use standard slotted wheel sensors, though, so I just desoldered the sensors from the circuit board of an inexpensive Microsoft compatible mouse and ran wires to the sensors on the trackball instead. The mouse switches were also removed and wired to separate game-unit buttons. I made the first interface about 10 years ago, and I am still using it (at this very moment, in fact, hooked to an IBM laptop.) It's in a big foam-core box (10x9x4 inches), so it is not the sharpest looking thing, but it has never given me any trouble in 10 years of use. (Try that with a mouse!) Some museums use touch screens, but at that time, we could not find any that were reliable enough and precise enough. I later did a game fro the Brookfield Zoo that used a touch screen, but needed to use large on-screen "buttons" with good separation to get reliable picking. Using a trackball for input means that any character/numeric input must be done through on-screen selection, which is a bit klunky, but better than having a non-working exhibit. The one program that used (and still uses) keyboard input is the "Voyaging Game" located in the back of the Pacific exhibit (a dark and quiet area). It has benches in front of the screens for the users to sit at. Here, in a more tranquil setting, the visitors do not pound on the keyboards, so they have survived fairly well. (They even survived having holes drilled through them, when some exhibit installers mounted a label on the case surface above the keyboard, and drilled too far!) The biggest problem is someone will occassionally pop off a keycap, even though they are recessed in the case. -----Original Message----- From: Mike Cheponis [mailto:mac@Wireless.Com] Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 12:05 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Museum Computers (was Re: Washington D.C. Trip Perhaps these so-called "museums" need to visit SF's Exploratorium? There, everything is meant to be "hands-on". This doesn't mean that things don't break from time to time, but the percentage of operational exhibits there is greater than any other public museum I've seen. Mind you, I'm not saying people should put an Eniac cabinet out where people can slobber over it, but I think it would be cool to be able to remote-control these older machines (I dunno, like a 360/50 or something) via modern interfaces - safely away from the original equipment, but yet behind glass - so you can see the original machine running. So yeah, Chuck, I agree! -Mike On Thu, 31 May 2001, Chuck McManis wrote: > Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 09:04:39 -0700 > From: Chuck McManis > Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Museum Computers (was Re: Washington D.C. Trip > > > >The problem with working machines with millions of people tocuhing them over > >the years > >is that the machines tend to break. Even the modern display terminals > >used for > >presentation are > >in constant need of repair due to fingers smashing and otherwise folks that > >don't respect the equipment out of common courtesy. Computers don't hold up > >well to abuse. Its a shame but the way that it is. > >Eric > > > This is one of the problems I think would be fun to attack if I had a > suitable patron. Building I/O devices that could stand up to the kind of > abuse that museums get. > > From allain at panix.com Thu May 31 01:22:53 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: Dvorak's Guide to PC Telecommunications References: <20010529.114008.-426737.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> <009401c0e839$14c04a20$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <000701c0e99a$20a82620$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> {John} Dvorak's Guide to PC Telecommunications 1990 McGraw-Hill free for postage to a worthy home. John A. From claudew at videotron.ca Thu May 31 13:37:15 2001 From: claudew at videotron.ca (Claude.W) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: Call for Resources for CDC 6000/Cyber 70 Series Emulator (PLATO?) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3715105D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20010531093836.0375fa38@mail.njd.concentric.com> Message-ID: <003301c0ea00$b75d0480$8e01cb18@videotron.ca> Hey PLATO that would be nice.... I would rather play dogfight or see someone find the game I had written in PLATOs tutor language called SPACE ATTACK....anybody remember the cccp sattelites coming down on the cities? Airfight was way to slow (where I was playing anyways) to be really any fun....dogfight was really playable and quite fun... Claude ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Eros To: Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 9:42 AM Subject: Re: Call for Resources for CDC 6000/Cyber 70 Series Emulator > Does this mean I might eventually run PLATO on a simh-emulated CYBER system? > > Now, if I could just remember how to play 'Airfight'... :-) > > -- Tony > > At 03:24 PM 5/31/2001 +0200, you wrote: > > > > I'm gathering the resources necessary to build an emulator > > > for the CDC 6000 Series, Cyber 70 Series, and Cyber 170 > > > Series mainframes. I'll be pulling together existing > > > works-in-progress and using Bob Supnik's SIMH as a framework. > > > > > The fruits of this labor will be freely available to any > > > and all, as with the DEC emulators. As to the CDC-owned > > > software, efforts are underway which are hoped will lead > > > to a hobbyist license, a la DEC's. > > > > > I have a good start on the manuals I need (kept some from > > > years ago, will acquire others). Additionally, I've sent > > > two of my four old CDC 9-track tapes to be read and placed > > > on CD-ROM as images. > > > > > If any of you (whom I have not already been in contact with) > > > have any printed source listings, coredumps, or best of all, > > > 9- or 7-track tapes containing operating systems (the CDCs > > > used a deadstart tape and a system library tape), would you > > > be willing to have the tapes imaged-to-disk, and make the > > > images available to this project? > > > >You should eventualy talk to John Zabolitzky (He is off list > >at the moment) at Jgzabol@aol.com - If there is something > >to know about Cyber mainframes, he does. > > > >Gruss > >H. > > > >-- > >VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen > >http://www.vcfe.org/ > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 31 13:29:59 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: Museum Computers (was Re: Washington D.C. Trip In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010531085400.021b48d0@208.226.86.10> from "Chuck McManis" at May 31, 1 09:04:39 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 989 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010531/9f5e575a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 31 13:33:29 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: Hello classic computer fans... In-Reply-To: <3B167C32.D74A8E40@tiac.net> from "Bob Shannon" at May 31, 1 01:15:30 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1134 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010531/1667a29c/attachment.ksh From bdc at world.std.com Thu May 31 13:45:38 2001 From: bdc at world.std.com (Brian Chase) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: OT Iridium (Was: Re: classiccmp-digest V1 #615) In-Reply-To: <3B165E6C.69859855@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 May 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > What is Iridium? Wait a couple of years and I'm sure the answer will come falling out of the sky to you. Or you can check their homepage: http://www.iridium.com/ -brian. From bdc at world.std.com Thu May 31 13:49:39 2001 From: bdc at world.std.com (Brian Chase) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: Xerox-Flies (was: Washington D.C. Trip) In-Reply-To: <3B1692E6.18143.43C5F2EA@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 May 2001, Hans Franke wrote: > > >I reckon that the burn-in on the Xerox Alto was an early "desktop theme" or > > >"screen saver" (did the Alto have that feature?). If I recall correctly it > > >reminded me of cartoon-like butterflies, flowers, or a bee or something > > >>like that. > > > I always wondered if that was actually screen burn in. As crazy as it > > might sound I got the feeling that was actually a clear 'decal' of some > > sort applied to the monitor. Don't ask me why on earth I should get such a > > strange impression though. > > Well, maybe they did run the 'fly-swat' Game for a long time ... > I don't recall the real name. You hat to 'catch' flies that apeared > around your window with a mouse klick ... they seamed to be random, > but they wheren't ... so if you just let this game run for a long > time, these flies will result in a visible burn in on your nice big > B&W screen. Bah, pseudo-random number generators. -brian. From jhfine at idirect.com Thu May 31 13:55:57 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: booting from RQDX3 References: <00a401c0e9ce$f8f1b9e0$1e4099a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> Message-ID: <3B1693BD.34DAE14@idirect.com> >Jonathan Engdahl wrote: >How does a PDP-11 boot from an RQDX3 controller? Jerome Fine replies: Why are you bothering with an old PDP-11/23? There are much faster systems that are readily available and since you have ONLY four serial channels (I presume that you are using an M8043/DLV11-J module), why would you not switch to a faster, more capable system? Unless you just like the actual hardware in which case you should not mind the following answer: Usually from a program stored somewhere in memory. The storage is almost always on an EPROM, but on occasion it can be on a sheet of paper. I suppose that for someone who has a photographic memory, the storage media would be in their brain. In any case, after the system receives this PRIMARY BOOT program in a form that it can use, the next step is to read the secondary boot program from block zero of the media - in your case, the hard disk drive. If you are willing to spend about 5 minutes typing in a PRIMARY BOOT program each time you power on the system, them, the RQDX3 can be used. If the answer is yes, I will be happy to locate a suitable BOOT program and type it in for you. I seem to remember it was about 75 words of code and data, but that could be wrong. Not that this program would also boot a floppy with XXDP so that you would be able to format the hard drive. Please reply if you want me to find it. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have several 11/23's based on the KDF11-AA CPU, which has no on-board boot ROM. The Andromeda UDC11 disk controller that most of these use contains the boot ROM. These machines are in a 4-slot dual-wide card cage which is full. There is the CPU, a memory card, the disk controller, and a serial card. A couple of these machines are missing the disk controller. RQDX3's seem to be readily available, and there is adequate documentation of the card on the web (jumpers, cable pinouts, etc). Will the KDF11-AA be able to boot from an RQDX3? If not, can anyone suggest an good alternative? -- Jonathan Engdahl Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer 24800 Tungsten Road Advanced Technology Euclid, OH 44117 USA Euclid Labs http://users.safeaccess.com/engdahl From engdahl at cle.ab.com Thu May 31 15:09:07 2001 From: engdahl at cle.ab.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: booting from RQDX3 References: <00a401c0e9ce$f8f1b9e0$1e4099a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> <3B1693BD.34DAE14@idirect.com> Message-ID: <035501c0ea0d$8ce583a0$1e4099a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> > >Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > > >How does a PDP-11 boot from an RQDX3 controller? > > Jerome Fine replies: > > Why are you bothering with an old PDP-11/23? There are much faster > systems that are readily available and since you have ONLY four serial > channels (I presume that you are using an M8043/DLV11-J module), > why would you not switch to a faster, more capable system? It might have something to do with the fact that I have 10 of them in the basement, and parts to build another 1 or 2. Most of them have only a 10 meg hard drive. I am graduating to the 11/53 so I can run 2.11BSD. I have a couple M7554's and I'm working mostly on them. I'd like to get rid of most of the 11/23's once I have them in a state where they'd be worth having. I'd be willing to trade an 11/23 system for a Qbus SCSI card that will work with 2.11BSD on the 11/53. But I'm getting ahead of myself -- I'm not ready to worry about the SCSI conversion yet. I need to get the parts on hand working first. -- Jonathan Engdahl Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer 24800 Tungsten Road Advanced Technology Euclid, OH 44117 USA Euclid Labs http://users.safeaccess.com/engdahl From celt at chisp.net Thu May 31 15:18:17 2001 From: celt at chisp.net (Michael Maginnis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: Altair 8800b Turnkey & Front Panel Message-ID: <3B16A709.8030700@chisp.net> This was donated to me about a week ago; my collection interests are 80s-era 8-bit micros and heathkit items. I have no knowledge of S-100 computers, and would prefer this go to someone who has the knowledge and interest to maintain it. Contact me off-list if you want it. - Mike http://tarnover.dyndns.org/ Tarnover - The Apple II Repository From rhblake at bigfoot.com Thu May 31 15:13:40 2001 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: Another way to kill the classics Message-ID: HP's on the bandwagon to scrap the old iron and make room for them to sell LOTS more....see this http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/feature_stories/takeback.htm From engdahl at cle.ab.com Thu May 31 15:30:38 2001 From: engdahl at cle.ab.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: OT Iridium (Was: Re: classiccmp-digest V1 #615) References: Message-ID: <036501c0ea10$8e477d40$1e4099a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> Facts about Iridium: 1: a satellite based global communications system, like having cell phone towers in the sky. 2: the investors lost their shirts. 3: but the best part about Iridium, the part to really get excited about, is "Iridium flares". Do a web search on that term. A couple times a day the mirror-like solar panels will reflect the light of the sun to a location with driving distance of where you are. Viewing is best just after sunset. You can see a magnitude -8 (half the brightness of the moon) flash lasting a second or two. It looks like an aircraft landing light pointed straight at you. There is software available that will tell you the latitude/longitude, time, and magnitude for the flares occurring in the next day or two in your area. Picture driving pell-mell 5~10 miles through the countryside with a kid or two, computer and GPS on the dash, stopping at ground zero (in a parking lot or in front of someone's house maybe), staring at the sky for 5 minutes, then suddenly everyone's yelling "There it is", "I saw it". Lots of fun. Great teaching opportunity. I guess you could call Iridium a classic computer of sorts. Kind of hard to get your hands on one, though. Are they 10 years old yet? -- Jonathan Engdahl Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer 24800 Tungsten Road Advanced Technology Euclid, OH 44117 USA Euclid Labs http://users.safeaccess.com/engdahl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Chase" To: Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 2:45 PM Subject: Re: OT Iridium (Was: Re: classiccmp-digest V1 #615) > On Thu, 31 May 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > > What is Iridium? > > Wait a couple of years and I'm sure the answer will come falling out of > the sky to you. Or you can check their homepage: http://www.iridium.com/ > > -brian. > From allain at panix.com Thu May 31 03:45:46 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: booting from RQDX3 References: <00a401c0e9ce$f8f1b9e0$1e4099a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> <3B1693BD.34DAE14@idirect.com> Message-ID: <002e01c0e9ae$1643d760$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> JHF, et al: Would 30+ lines of assembly always be required? I've been playing stupid (no guesswork there) with some of my older systems for some time now; getting in to it slowly, just leaving them configured in as found condition. I thought DEC 11's all did higher level booting with a memory mapped address in the pre-Vax and with named console devices in the Vaxes. Are you then saying that adding a disk controller card always requires adding a matching boot (E(P(ROM))? ('Duuh' -JEA) John A. From chronic at nf.sympatico.ca Thu May 31 15:54:42 2001 From: chronic at nf.sympatico.ca (Lanny Cox) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: Altair 8800b Turnkey & Front Panel References: <3B16A709.8030700@chisp.net> Message-ID: <000901c0ea13$eb9d32c0$88f8fea9@98box> I want it, really badly, i'm a new collector and need a nice "prized piece". Lemme know how much you are sellling it over, i'd also be willing to pay shipping on the thing. -Lanny ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Maginnis To: Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 5:48 PM Subject: Altair 8800b Turnkey & Front Panel > This was donated to me about a week ago; my collection interests are > 80s-era 8-bit micros and heathkit items. I have no knowledge of S-100 > computers, and would prefer this go to someone who has the knowledge and > interest to maintain it. Contact me off-list if you want it. > > - Mike > http://tarnover.dyndns.org/ > Tarnover - The Apple II Repository > From louiss at gate.net Thu May 31 16:07:51 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: Can anyone here burn a MMI6309 PROM for a Lisa? In-Reply-To: <004101c0e9eb$d12b34f0$6401a8c0@John> Message-ID: <200105312107.RAA03623@smtp6.mindspring.com> On Thu, 31 May 2001 12:07:38 -0400, John Lewczyk wrote: #I'm looking for help making a 256*8 Tri-state PROM for the CPU card of a #Lisa. #Its a MMI 6409-1N part. I don't have a data sheet and I don't have the means #to burn one. # #If I supply the part and the data, can anyone here burn a few of them for #me? # #Alleged parts equivilent to the MMI 6409-1N are: #Signetics 82S135 #National 74S471 #TI 28L22 # I also have a Data I/O 29B with Unipak 2A. I used it just last week to burn a 3-rail 2708 and a couple of 2716s. I had it read the MMI 6309 from my Lisa (using the Signetics part number). It showed 16 lines of code, the rest blank. If this is what you think one should look like, then I can probably program it. This chip, btw came from the cpu board of my Lisa 2/5. Louis From ss at allegro.com Thu May 31 16:07:18 2001 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: Another way to kill the classics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3B165016.3321.B25F282@localhost> Date sent: Thu, 31 May 2001 15:13:40 -0500 Subject: Another way to kill the classics From: "Russ Blakeman" To: "Classic Computer List" Send reply to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > HP's on the bandwagon to scrap the old iron and make room for them to sell > LOTS more....see this > > http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/feature_stories/takeback.htm I was worried, too...so I wrote to them, and got back the following reply: ------------ Thank you for you inquiry regarding the potential relics we might receive from this program. It is my hope that we do receive older products that remind us all of the humble beginnings of this industry and this company. We have been operating this facility for over 10 years and have seen a wide variety of older products. So much so, that processes are in place to prevent these types of items from entering our shredders. Items that have historic significance are made available to the Archive museums in Palo Alto for both HP and Agilent Technologies. In fact, we have retrieved several products that now reside there including a Sanborn Electrocardiograph machine (HP purchased Sanborn in 1961) that was built in 1939. Rest assured these antiques will not be recycled. -------------- Of course, who knows what else they consider "antiques"? Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu May 31 16:16:33 2001 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: Another way to kill the classics In-Reply-To: "from Russ Blakeman at May 31, 2001 03:13:40 pm" Message-ID: <200105312116.QAA26554@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > HP's on the bandwagon to scrap the old iron and make room for them to sell > LOTS more....see this > > http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/feature_stories/takeback.htm > I hope that free box of Herbal Tea they sent me the other day wasnt recycled Tea ;) But, this doesnt surprise me much comming from HP. They always liked to run a lot of trade-in rebate programs, where they would accept not only their own outdated products, but other competitors as well, so they needed some method to get rid of the stuff. There toner recycling program is a joke though, why pay money to ship empty toners to be destroyed, when you can have em remanufactured and thus reused for a lot less money? Because that if you remanufacture them, HP would make less money, thats why.. -Larry LeMay From bshannon at tiac.net Thu May 31 17:00:03 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: Hello classic computer fans... References: Message-ID: <3B16BEE3.D7353C17@tiac.net> Tony Duell wrote: > > > I'm suprised it took a microprocessor to do this. I don't know the > details of the HP tape reader interface, but the HP optical tape reader I > have (rescued with the 2100A) looks pretty simple inside, so I have to > conclude the interface is going to be much the same as on other optical > tape readers. > > And for those, I could design the interface between the computer's paper > tape port and a counter/EPROM array using a few TTL chips, probably as a > state machine in most cases. > > -tony 2 one-shots could do the job, but the Z8 also drove a Decitek tape reader to capture original paper tape images for transfer to the ROM burner. Not having good documentation on the Decitek, programmability was a big help. I think that an improved version of the reader-emulator would make better use of the micro by switching into the console serial line and prompting to select a tape image, and then returning the console to the system during the boot cycle. From univac2 at earthlink.net Thu May 31 17:02:21 2001 From: univac2 at earthlink.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: Atari 400 & 800XL Power Supply Question Message-ID: Quick Question - Do the Atari 400 and 800XL use the same power supply? From red at bears.org Thu May 31 17:08:58 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: Atari 400 & 800XL Power Supply Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 31 May 2001, Owen Robertson wrote: > Quick Question - Do the Atari 400 and 800XL use the same power supply? No. ok r. From gessler at ucla.edu Thu May 31 17:17:36 2001 From: gessler at ucla.edu (Nick Gessler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: Another way to kill the classics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010531151515.021950b0@pop.bol.ucla.edu> At 03:13 PM 5/31/01 -0500, Russ Blakeman wrote: >HP's on the bandwagon to scrap the old iron and make room for them to sell >LOTS more....see this > >http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/feature_stories/takeback.htm And I see they charge for this? Wow! What a deal! They make money and we pay them extra. And I think we can all get 4 - 10 cents per pound from our local scrap dealers. What's the going rate for "breakage" in your town? Best, Nick Los Angeles (my first post on this list, so hello everyone) Nicholas Gessler gessler@ucla.edu Box 706, 22148 Monte Vista Drive Topanga, CA 90290-0706 310.455.1630 (home office) 310.825.4728 (UCLA office) 310.825.7428 (UCLA fax) Special Projects, UCLA Center for Digital Humanities Founding Co-Director, UCLA Center for Computational Social Science Instructor, Geography, Computational Cartography In preparation - "Artificial Culture - Experiments in Synthetic Anthropology." Web Portal: http://www.bol.ucla.edu/~gessler From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu May 31 17:39:38 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: Atari 400 & 800XL Power Supply Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Quick Question - Do the Atari 400 and 800XL use the same power supply? There's a full list of Atari 8bit PSU requirements in the 8bit FAQ at: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/atari-8-bit/faq/ It shows the 800XL uses the same PSU as the 600XL,65XE,130XE, and XE Game System while the 400 uses the same PSU as the 800,822,850,1010,1200XL,810,1020,1050, and XF551. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From curt at atari-history.com Thu May 31 18:06:07 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: Atari 400 & 800XL Power Supply Question References: Message-ID: <003701c0ea26$463e78d0$c2609040@atarihistory.com> Hi Owen, No, the Atari 400 uses a female power plug which provides 9VAC to the system. The Atari 800XL uses a 5 pin male DIN plug to provide 12v/5v/gnd DC voltage. If you need replacement power supplies you can get them from B&C Atari Sales & Service: www.myatari.com -or- Best Electronics: www.best-electronics-ca.com Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Owen Robertson" To: "Classic Computer Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 6:02 PM Subject: Atari 400 & 800XL Power Supply Question > Quick Question - Do the Atari 400 and 800XL use the same power supply? > From witchy at vorbis.demon.co.uk Thu May 31 18:05:18 2001 From: witchy at vorbis.demon.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: Lisas In-Reply-To: <200105310302.WAA05650@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: > Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 23:31:52 -0700 (PDT) > From: Sellam Ismail > Subject: RE: WOW!R@RE!L@@K > > On Tue, 29 May 2001, Adrian Graham wrote: > > Are you sure there were 80K Lisa 1's sold? Wouldn't that be the number > for the entire run of Lisa's sold in total? Ta Sellam - according to my own notes only 10K Lisa 1's were sold, 80K was roughly the number of Lisa 2/Mac XLs sold...... Losing your job has a fun effect on your brainpower :) Still, I got a Sinclair ZX80 power supply for one english pound last weekend so I'm not complaining! cheers adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the Online Computer Museum 0:OK, 0:1 From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Thu May 31 18:12:06 2001 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: Apple Turnover?(OT long, boring, maybe humor) Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0007A293@BUSH02> Ho humm.... -----Original Message----- From: McFadden, Mike [SMTP:mmcfadden@cmh.edu] Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 5:07 PM To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' Subject: Re: Apple Turnover?(OT long, boring, maybe humor) Little know facts about apple turnovers. [cut] to be turned over. The only successful installation is in the International Space Station where gravity is not a factor so the apple will turn over due to convection currents in the air flow. That's where the term convection Err .. no gravity = no convection. This brought to mind some show I was watching about Space Shuttle. The narator said .. "The astronaughts don't sleep lying down because in orbit there is no gravity. They sleep standing up." Huh? Lee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The information contained in this email may contain information which is confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call 01285 884400. From optimus at canit.se Thu May 31 19:49:21 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: Altair 8800 front panel lamps In-Reply-To: <3B15B4A1.70987036@greenbelt.com> Message-ID: <654.552T1050T1094747optimus@canit.se> Eric Chomko skrev: >Wait, now if this book is so bad, then I HAVE to see it! I mean there is >value in something that is the example of what to avoid; and if not then at >least for some entertainment value. Kind of reminds me of reading books that >"support" the lone-nut theory WRT the JFK assassination. Actually, I'd wholeheartedly recommend that book. It's really interesting and written in a compelling way. It doesn't really shy away from computer terms as popular books often might. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Haben Sie schon mal einen Wegweiser gesehen, der selbst den Weg geht, den er weist? --- Ludwig XV (K?nig von Frankreich, 1710-1774) From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu May 31 19:24:22 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:02 2005 Subject: booting from RQDX3 In-Reply-To: "John Allain" "Re: booting from RQDX3" (May 31, 4:45) References: <00a401c0e9ce$f8f1b9e0$1e4099a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> <3B1693BD.34DAE14@idirect.com> <002e01c0e9ae$1643d760$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <10106010124.ZM10875@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On May 31, 4:45, John Allain wrote: > Would 30+ lines of assembly always be required? I've lost the context that prompted that particualr question, but if you're asking if a bootstrap always needs 30+ lines of instructions, no, some are much shorter than that. This is the bootstrap for a TU10 magtape: 100000 012700 MOV #0172526, R0 ; TM11 (TU10) MTCMA magtape current memory addr 100002 172526 100004 010040 MOV R0, -(R0) ; byte count, 2's compl, -2730 allows up to 2730 100010 012740 MOV #060003, -(R0) ; MTC command reg: 800bpi 9-trk, odd parity, 100012 060003 ; unit 0, no IRQ, extended bits zeroed, read+go 100014 000777 BR 0100014 This is the code for an RXV21 (RX02 floppy controller) which is one of the longer ones (the comments are mine): 1 000000 ; RXV21_boot From Microcomputer Interfaces Handbook 1983-84, page 484 2 000000 ; Use ODT to enter, then set RS=340, R6=1000, R7=1000, then P 3 000000 ; 4 000000 ORG O1000 5 001000 ; 6 001000 012700 MOV #O100240,R0 6 001002 100240 7 001004 012701 MOV #O177170,R1 ; RXCSR 7 001006 177170 8 001010 005002 CLR R2 9 001012 012705 MOV #O200,R5 9 001014 000200 10 001016 012704 MOV #O401,R4 ; track 1, sector 1 10 001020 000401 11 001022 012703 MOV #O177172,R3 ; RXDBR 11 001024 177172 12 001026 030011 BIT R0,(R1) 13 001030 001776 BEQ $-4 ; wait for TransferReq or Done 14 001032 100437 BMI O1132 ; branch if ERR set 15 001034 012711 MOV #O407,(R1) ; set DDens, Read, Go 15 001036 000407 16 001040 030011 BIT R0,(R1) ; wait for TR 17 001042 001776 BEQ $-4 18 001044 100432 BMI O1132 ; branch if ERR set 19 001046 110413 MOVB R4,(R3) ; give sector number 20 001050 000304 SWAB R4 ; swap track and sector 21 001052 030011 BIT R0,(R1) ; wait for TR 22 001054 001776 BEQ $-4 23 001056 110413 MOVB R4,(R3) ; give track number 24 001060 000304 SWAB R4 ; swap sector and track 25 001062 030011 BIT R0,(R1) ; wait for TR 26 001064 001776 BEQ $-4 27 001066 100421 BMI O1132 28 001070 012711 MOV #O403,(R1) ; EmptyBuffer (DDens) command 28 001072 000403 29 001074 030011 BIT R0,(R1) ; wait for TR 30 001076 001776 BEQ $-4 31 001100 010414 MOV R4,(R4) ; save sector number 32 001102 010513 MOV R5,(R3) ; set word count=256 33 001104 030011 BIT R0,(R1) 34 001106 001776 BEQ $-4 ; wait for done 35 001110 100410 BMI O1132 36 001112 010213 MOV R2,(R3) ; set address=0 37 001114 060502 ADD R5,R2 ; increment... 38 001116 060502 ADD R5,R2 ; ...address 39 001120 122424 CMPB (R4)+,(R4)+ ; bump R4 by 2 and clear all flags 40 001122 120427 CMPB R4,#3 ; sectors 1 and 3 get done 40 001124 000003 41 001126 003735 BLE O1022 ; loop if not finished 42 001130 012700 MOV #0,R0 42 001132 000000 43 001134 005007 CLR PC ; go to address zero 44 001136 120427 CMPB R4,#0 ; dummy operation, pipelined but not executed 44 001140 000000 > I thought DEC 11's all did higher level booting with a memory > mapped address in the pre-Vax and with named console > devices in the Vaxes. > > Are you then saying that adding a disk controller card always > requires adding a matching boot (E(P(ROM))? ('Duuh' -JEA) There has to be *some* code *somewhere*, and different controllers need different boot code (if only because they have the registers at different addresses). There isn't any ROM on a KDF11-A or KDJ11-A, so you need there to be some bootstrap code on one of the other cards. Third-party controllers often have unique boot code on the card. Most DEC controllers rely on a boot ROM being on a special bootstrap board (like a BDV11, which also has a line time clock and bus terminators), a ROM board (like an MRV11-D) or a multifunction card (MXV11, which also has DRAM memory, clock, and serial lines for the console and one other serial device). Most of the DEC bootstraps for Qbus systems offer a choice of boot options (different disks, network, etc) and in addition will do a simple memory test (or at least write to it to ensure the parity or ECC is correct); many of the later ones are interactive. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dogas at bellsouth.net Thu May 31 19:39:25 2001 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:03 2005 Subject: Altair 8800b Turnkey & Front Panel References: <3B16A709.8030700@chisp.net> Message-ID: <002d01c0ea33$501307b0$0ddb3fd0@DOMAIN> Hi Michael, I know this response is comming in a sea of others, but I also drastically collect 80s era 8bitters as well and could probably work out *any* kind of trade you might be interested in.... No biggie if its too late... (ps... those are quite valuable machines.) Cheers - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net > This was donated to me about a week ago; my collection interests are > 80s-era 8-bit micros and heathkit items. I have no knowledge of S-100 > computers, and would prefer this go to someone who has the knowledge and > interest to maintain it. Contact me off-list if you want it. > > - Mike > http://tarnover.dyndns.org/ > Tarnover - The Apple II Repository > > > From padf at ihug.co.nz Thu May 31 19:31:27 2001 From: padf at ihug.co.nz (Patrick Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:03 2005 Subject: OT Iridium (Was: Re: classiccmp-digest V1 #615) In-Reply-To: <036501c0ea10$8e477d40$1e4099a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> Message-ID: Gidday Jonathan On 01-Jun-01, you wrote: > Facts about Iridium: > after sunset. You can see a magnitude -8 (half the brightness of the moon) > flash lasting a second or two. It looks like an aircraft landing light > pointed straight at you. Oh dear, then what I told my daughter were Iridium were not. They fasleh at about 1Hz right across the sky. I had the idea that they flashed because they were rotating and flat sides were flashing light as they moved across the sky. Regards -- *Patrick Ford Auckland, New Zealand* */#icq#/ 51642681* Buttermilk, it makes a body bitter. Support *Open Directory Project* NO banners, NO junk--just information. *ODP *is built by volunteers and owned by the community . -------> http://dmoz.org <-----------Check it out From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu May 31 16:44:16 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:04:05 2005 Subject: MS-DOS cross assembler for HP211x machines. Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3715107D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > For those interested in a cross assemlber for theHP mini's... > > I found C source code for a HP 2100 cross assemlber on the HP2100 > archive site (which seems to be down today). I think Jeff's site is hosted on his workstation... it probably kills the performance of the station when it's getting hit a lot. I've also downloaded the complete contents of this site, so I can forward items if you can't get them otherwise. > Not being a C person (that is, not able to read C, much less code in > it), I handed a copy over to a friend who tinkers with C a little. > He managed to convert the original source into something that would > compile on what he described as an obsolete C compiler (Borland?). For those of you who would prefer to use a more modern compiler, and who can run a 32-bit version of Windows, there is a version of the Gnu Compiler Collection (GCC) that runs in a Win32 Console Session (not really a DOS box, but close enough), I recommend you search for this particular package: gcc-2.95.2-crtdll.exe Unpacked, it's 23MB, and all you need after unpacking it (it's self-extracting) is to set your PATH to the bin folder of the directory into which you install it. At any rate, hpasm.c compiled with no changes, as did chkabs.c. OTOH, I have not yet tried to assemble the sources for the MSU 4-user BASIC and compare the binary output to the existing binary he has on the site. So, the proof remains in the pudding... Regards, -dq