From foo at siconic.com  Sun Oct  1 00:59:13 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:42 2005
Subject: Convergent Technologies Workslate
In-Reply-To: <OE8twNeKjUbEtKVCvvM0000101f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009302256360.14286-100000@siconic.com>

On Sat, 30 Sep 2000, Kevin Stewart wrote:

> I have one of these -- the guy I got it from claimed that is was a
> prototype Palm Pilot (NO idea where he got that from) but it was a
> cool looking machine so I picked it up anyway. Only $8, what the
> hell...

That's a load of crap.  He was probably thinking something along the lines
that it was a Palm Pilot 15 years before the Palm Pilot.
 
> But I haven't really been able to do anything useful with it -- there's a
> little spreadsheet program, text editor, tape recorder, 300 baud modem +
> comms software, but my TI-86 graphing calculator can do all of this
> (including the modem, up to 9600 bps ;) )

Sure, but 15 years ago?

Sellam                                International Man of Intrigue and Danger
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...

                       VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
               San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
                    See http://www.vintage.org for details!



From agraham at ccat.co.uk  Mon Oct  2 04:24:12 2000
From: agraham at ccat.co.uk (Adrian Graham)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:42 2005
Subject: Recent finds
Message-ID: <00Oct2.102413bst.46093@gatekeeper.ccat.co.uk>

After last weekend's soaraway success this weekend was a little flat! I
could only get 2 boxed early 80s electronic games - MB Genius and Cue
Ball....red LED snooker anyone? :)

http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk if you fancy a look, now fully (I hope)
netscape compatible!

a

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Ford [mailto:mikeford@socal.rr.com]
> Sent: 29 September 2000 19:02
> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org
> Subject: Recent finds
> 
> 
> Sometimes its the little things, sometimes the big ones.
> 
> Items bringing me joy this week (something has to since I 
> can't go to VCF ;(
> 
> I found two Tandy labeled and two Grid labeled AC adapters, 
> all with the
> same output plug and 16.5 v something amp ratings.
> 
> Later in the week I found a Barco 2846 multidata 28" color monitor
> (supports NTSC/PAL RGB, svga, and mac with switches).
> 
> 

From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Mon Oct  2 07:42:40 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:42 2005
Subject: Trash or Treasure?
In-Reply-To: <14795.55877.595038.417294@phaduka.neurotica.com>
References: <Trash or Treasure? (Joe)>
 <3.0.1.16.20000922161213.3487e03e@mailhost.intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001002074240.3cafd0fa@mailhost.intellistar.net>

  I hooked up the box this weekend and it seems to work fine except that I
don't know any of the account names or passwords so I couldn't log on to
it. Can anyone tell me how to break into RSX-11M?  I don't know anything
about RSX-11, are there any on-line references to it? I was able to set the
time and date and to tell it to verify the hard drive and it did that with
no problems. I also used the Help files extensively. Besides RSX-11M, it
also has a lot of Gen-Rad utilities installed. They also have a lot of help
files. Everything appears to work perfectly except for not being able to
log in.

    Joe

>
>On September 22, Joe wrote:
>>   A couple of weeks ago I found a box in a scrap yard with a half height 8"
>> floppy drive it in. The box was marked "Gen-Rad" and looked like part of a
>> old piece of test equipment. I picked up the box just for the floppy drive
>> and brought it home. Today I started to take it apart and found that it was
>> made by Scientific Micro Systems and has a number of DEC cards in it as
>> well as a Maxtor XT-1085 hard drive. My question is what is it and weather
>> it's worth keeping or is it just good for parts?
>> 
>>   Here's the details; It's marked "Gen Rad 2295 Central Station" on the
>> front. The back is marked "Scientific Micro Systems" "model MDX01170".
>> It's about 9" w x 11" h x 17" deep. On the back it has eight DB-25m ports
>> on the back. They're marked "TZ0" through "TZ3", "LP0" and "TT0" through
>> "TT2". Inside it has a DEC M7957 quad board, a half size board made by
>> Sigma Information Systems Inc (connected to the TT* and LP0 ports), a half
>> size "Q RAM 11" board made by Clear Point (memory?), a DEC M 8186 half size
>> card, and a half size SMS card (1002001-0001/0004220-0001) that is also
>> connected via a jumper to the last card, a full quad size SMS card
>> (1001939-0001/0003770-0001).  The last card has ribbon cables that connect
>> to the floppy and hard drive.
>> 
>>   Does anyone know what it is? Is it worth anything?  FWIW I haven't tried
>> to connect a terminal to it yet but it appears to power up and boot.
>> 
>>    Joe
>


From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us  Mon Oct  2 08:22:02 2000
From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:42 2005
Subject: Need SCSI interface for Microvax 3400
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009302256360.14286-100000@siconic.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009302256360.14286-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <v04210101b5fe3c1c834f@[157.178.130.128]>

I recently acquired a microvax 3400, and I will shortly have a dec
CDROM drive (RRD42-AA).  I am looking for a scsi interface for the
microvax so that, when I finally get my decus membership ID, I can
get the latest VMS cd's and reinstall (I currently have VMS 5.1 installed).


Any ideas on where I might find a scsi interface for this system?

thanks!

-Bob
Bob Brown
Saved by grace
Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown

From jhfine at idirect.com  Mon Oct  2 11:20:39 2000
From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:42 2005
Subject: Need SCSI interface for Microvax 3400
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009302256360.14286-100000@siconic.com> <v04210101b5fe3c1c834f@[157.178.130.128]>
Message-ID: <39D8B5D7.3114614@idirect.com>

>Bob Brown wrote:

> I recently acquired a microvax 3400, and I will shortly have a dec
> CDROM drive (RRD42-AA).  I am looking for a scsi interface for the
> microvax so that, when I finally get my decus membership ID, I can
> get the latest VMS cd's and reinstall (I currently have VMS 5.1 installed).
>
> Any ideas on where I might find a scsi interface for this system?

Jerome Fine replies:

It depends on how much your are willing to pay!  Unfortunately,
most SCSI interfaces for the Qbus are still hundreds of dollars.
And for a 3400, the only model that I know of is the CQD 223/M
made by CMD.  There may be others that will also fit the Qbus,
but the 3400 backplane required a filler board and the extra
bulkheads.  It would be helpful if anyone else on the list can
suggest another less expensive alternative.  Note that if you also
want SCSI tape interfaces, the model is CQD 223/TM.

Sincerely yours,

Jerome Fine


From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com  Mon Oct  2 11:28:00 2000
From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:42 2005
Subject: Need SCSI interface for Microvax 3400
In-Reply-To: <v04210101b5fe3c1c834f@[157.178.130.128]>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009302256360.14286-100000@siconic.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009302256360.14286-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20001002092331.029d0940@208.226.86.10>

At 08:22 AM 10/2/00 -0500, you wrote:
>Any ideas on where I might find a scsi interface for this system?

Well the obvious folks are DEC resellers. If you look on the web and/or in 
Processor Magazine (its an advertising thing for resellers) you can find 
several. I know the CMD CQD-223 and/or 443/TM work under both VMS and 
NetBSD. Be prepared to pay somewhere between $500 and $1500 if you go this 
route (the advantage though is that you get one right away.) You can 
continue to watch Ebay, I have seen SCSI interfaces appear there now and 
again and they usually go for less than $500.

--Chuck
(ebay: chuckmcm :-)




From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us  Mon Oct  2 11:43:54 2000
From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:42 2005
Subject: Need SCSI interface for Microvax 3400
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20001002092331.029d0940@208.226.86.10>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009302256360.14286-100000@siconic.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009302256360.14286-100000@siconic.com>
 <4.3.1.2.20001002092331.029d0940@208.226.86.10>
Message-ID: <v0421010fb5fe6ba1aeb4@[157.178.130.128]>

If it's gonna cost that much (way more than I can afford to spend on it)..
can anyone point me to a recent vms distribution on TK70 tape so I can
use the tape drive?

thanks.

-Bob



>At 08:22 AM 10/2/00 -0500, you wrote:
>>Any ideas on where I might find a scsi interface for this system?
>
>Well the obvious folks are DEC resellers. If you look on the web 
>and/or in Processor Magazine (its an advertising thing for 
>resellers) you can find several. I know the CMD CQD-223 and/or 
>443/TM work under both VMS and NetBSD. Be prepared to pay somewhere 
>between $500 and $1500 if you go this route (the advantage though is 
>that you get one right away.) You can continue to watch Ebay, I have 
>seen SCSI interfaces appear there now and again and they usually go 
>for less than $500.
>
>--Chuck
>(ebay: chuckmcm :-)

Bob Brown
Saved by grace
Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown

From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com  Mon Oct  2 12:08:02 2000
From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:42 2005
Subject: Need SCSI interface for Microvax 3400
In-Reply-To: <v0421010fb5fe6ba1aeb4@[157.178.130.128]>
References: <4.3.1.2.20001002092331.029d0940@208.226.86.10>
 <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009302256360.14286-100000@siconic.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009302256360.14286-100000@siconic.com>
 <4.3.1.2.20001002092331.029d0940@208.226.86.10>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20001002100248.00d12650@208.226.86.10>

At 11:43 AM 10/2/00 -0500, Bob wrote:
>If it's gonna cost that much (way more than I can afford to spend on it)..
>can anyone point me to a recent vms distribution on TK70 tape so I can
>use the tape drive?

I didn't say it _had_ to cost that much, just that it could :-). I got my 
CQD-443/TM for free as it came inside a 3400 I rescued from certain death. 
But there is certainly a time/cost function at work. If you wait patiently 
and let everyone know what you need then things pop up from time to time. 
Unpredictable though.

The interesting question this raises of course is how one might go about 
creating a "release" disk on TK70 (I've got TK70's in all my VAXen and 
TK85's in a couple). Just this past week I was experimenting with creating 
a standalone backup tape to "mass install" but discovered that while this 
may work for the OS it definitely does not work for the layered products. 
In particular things like BASIC and ADA tend to build system definition 
tables based on the system they are installed on and when you move that 
data to a new system they are inevitably "wrong" and the compiler asks to 
be re-installed from the save sets. I know I can put together a TK70 with 
standalone backup and VMS 7.2 on it.  That part works fine.

--Chuck



From healyzh at aracnet.com  Mon Oct  2 12:39:10 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:42 2005
Subject: Need SCSI interface for Microvax 3400
In-Reply-To: <v04210101b5fe3c1c834f@[157.178.130.128]>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009302256360.14286-100000@siconic.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009302256360.14286-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <v04020a12b5fe77d26c03@[192.168.1.5]>

Bob Brown wrote:
>I recently acquired a microvax 3400, and I will shortly have a dec
>CDROM drive (RRD42-AA).  I am looking for a scsi interface for the
>microvax so that, when I finally get my decus membership ID, I can
>get the latest VMS cd's and reinstall (I currently have VMS 5.1 installed).
>
>
>Any ideas on where I might find a scsi interface for this system?

OK, this is going to sound a bit odd....  The cheapest SCSI interface
you're going to find is something like a VAXstation 3100/10.  You put the
SCSI disks (and tapes) on it, and cluster the two systems together.  Early
3100's are dirt cheap these days.

If you have two drives and they're big enough on the MV3400, you can do
like I did for my MicroVAX 3.  I simply backed up the Hobbyist CD, copied
it over the network to a RA73 and restored it to a RA72, then I booted off
the RA72.  Since you already have VMS installed on the MV3400 this should
work for you also (I had 5.5-2 on a RD54 when I did it).

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|                 http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/              |

From vaxman at uswest.net  Mon Oct  2 13:53:33 2000
From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:42 2005
Subject: RL02 question
In-Reply-To: <v04210102b5f8e0a57f55@[157.178.130.128]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1001002125053.3240A-100000@oldy.crwolff.com>


Hi,

I recently purchased a number of RL02 cartridges. Some are labeled:
RL02K-DC and some RL02K-EF.

What's the difference between them?

One had one side of the shock indicator set, a second had both set.

Would it be a really bad idea to use either of these, or just a bad
idea?

Thanks,
clint



From jrasite at eoni.com  Mon Oct  2 14:10:11 2000
From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:42 2005
Subject: Trash or Treasure?
References: <Trash or Treasure? (Joe)>
	 <3.0.1.16.20000922161213.3487e03e@mailhost.intellistar.net> <3.0.1.16.20001002074240.3cafd0fa@mailhost.intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <39D8DD85.A6E30BC0@eoni.com>

Well there's a chance that the previous owner was lazy...  Try 'system'
'system' for user/password.

BTW, a short intro...

I'm Jim Arnott.  A former system admin for a LAN using: 11/24s, 11/23s and an
11/44.  O/S rt11sj, rt11sj and rsx11m+ respectively. All Decnetted together.
(Coordinate measuring machines talking to the data gatherer.)  It's been a
number of years, but I do remember a bit... Also was hooked to the ibm370
through RJE-HASP.

Since then, Macs exclusively.

I'll not be much help from the hardware end (aerospace contractor, full-boat
Dec service contract!) but I might be able to help out with o/s issues from
time to time.

Jim

Joe wrote:
> 
>   I hooked up the box this weekend and it seems to work fine except that I
> don't know any of the account names or passwords so I couldn't log on to
> it. Can anyone tell me how to break into RSX-11M?  I

From foxvideo at wincom.net  Mon Oct  2 12:13:41 2000
From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:42 2005
Subject: Mouse Systems mouse driver
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20001002131132.009db610@mail.wincom.net>




         Would anyone happen to have a Windows driver for the Mouse Systems 
optical mouse that they could spare?

                                         Thanks
                                         Charlie Fox

                                 Charles E. Fox
                         Chas E. Fox Video Productions
                 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ontario Canada
                 (519)254-4991, Fax (519)256-3388 foxvideo@wincom.net
                 Check out: The Old Walkerville Virtual Museum at
                 http://skyboom.com/foxvideo  and  Camcorder Kindergarten at
                         http://chasfoxvideo.com


From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us  Mon Oct  2 12:55:49 2000
From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:42 2005
Subject: Need SCSI interface for Microvax 3400
In-Reply-To: <v04020a12b5fe77d26c03@[192.168.1.5]>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009302256360.14286-100000@siconic.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009302256360.14286-100000@siconic.com>
 <v04020a12b5fe77d26c03@[192.168.1.5]>
Message-ID: <v04210111b5fe7c95aa50@[157.178.130.128]>

How much do early 3100's cost these days?

-Bob


>Bob Brown wrote:
> >I recently acquired a microvax 3400, and I will shortly have a dec
> >CDROM drive (RRD42-AA).  I am looking for a scsi interface for the
> >microvax so that, when I finally get my decus membership ID, I can
> >get the latest VMS cd's and reinstall (I currently have VMS 5.1 installed).
> >
> >
> >Any ideas on where I might find a scsi interface for this system?
>
>OK, this is going to sound a bit odd....  The cheapest SCSI interface
>you're going to find is something like a VAXstation 3100/10.  You put the
>SCSI disks (and tapes) on it, and cluster the two systems together.  Early
>3100's are dirt cheap these days.
>
>If you have two drives and they're big enough on the MV3400, you can do
>like I did for my MicroVAX 3.  I simply backed up the Hobbyist CD, copied
>it over the network to a RA73 and restored it to a RA72, then I booted off
>the RA72.  Since you already have VMS installed on the MV3400 this should
>work for you also (I had 5.5-2 on a RD54 when I did it).
>
>			Zane
>| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
>| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
>| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
>+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
>|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
>|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
>|                 http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/              |

Bob Brown
Saved by grace
Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown

From quapla at xs4all.nl  Mon Oct  2 16:30:03 2000
From: quapla at xs4all.nl (wanderer)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:42 2005
Subject: RL02 question
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1001002125053.3240A-100000@oldy.crwolff.com>
Message-ID: <39D8FE5B.582E@xs4all.nl>

Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I recently purchased a number of RL02 cartridges. Some are labeled:
> RL02K-DC and some RL02K-EF.
> 
> What's the difference between them?

The -DC are the regular ones, the -EF stands for Error Free, i.e. no
errors of any kind when they were tested in the manufacturing process.

Ed

-- 
The Wanderer                          | Politici zijn gore oplichters.
quapla@xs4all.nl                      | Europarlementariers:
zakkenvullers
http://www.xs4all.nl/~quapla          | en neuspeuteraars.
Unix Lives!  windows95/98 is rommel!  | 
'97 TL1000S                           | WEG MET DE TOLPOORTEN!!

From healyzh at aracnet.com  Mon Oct  2 14:35:36 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:42 2005
Subject: Need SCSI interface for Microvax 3400
In-Reply-To: <v04210111b5fe7c95aa50@[157.178.130.128]>
References: <v04020a12b5fe77d26c03@[192.168.1.5]>
 <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009302256360.14286-100000@siconic.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009302256360.14286-100000@siconic.com>
 <v04020a12b5fe77d26c03@[192.168.1.5]>
Message-ID: <v04020a14b5fe9342de6b@[192.168.1.5]>

>How much do early 3100's cost these days?
>
>-Bob

Anywhere from nothing to about $100 depending on configuration and where
you get it from.  The model will also effect the price some.  However, with
VAXstation 4000/VLC's and model 60's being in the $50-300 range the early
3100's have little to no value.  If you don't mind spending $50-100 I'd
really recommend going for the 4000/VLC!  My VLC is currently my favorite
VAX.  It has the added advantage of a normal external SCSI connector and
using basically normal RAM.  Something the early 3100's don't have in
either case.

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|                 http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/              |

From vcf at siconic.com  Mon Oct  2 12:27:39 2000
From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: IBM XT 286 (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010021027031.16880-100000@siconic.com>


If there are any takers, please reply directly to the sender.

Reply-To: DGBJ@aol.com


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 23:34:00 EDT
From: DGBJ@aol.com
Subject: IBM XT 286

I have an IBM XT 286 with color monitor, keyboard, two pin printers, manuals 
and software to donate to anyone who will make good use of it, preferably a 
museum.  Email or call me at 371-7745.  I live in San Jose, California.


Sellam                                 International Man of Intrigue and Danger
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...

                       VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
               San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
                    See http://www.vintage.org for details!



From vcf at siconic.com  Mon Oct  2 12:24:37 2000
From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: Link Contest Winner
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010021019530.16880-100000@siconic.com>


Here are the results of the VCF Link Contest:

Hits    Website
------- ----------------------------------------
    529 Wireless
        http://wireless.com
      0 Camcorder Kindergarten
        http://www.chasfoxvideo.com
     91 Eric Smith's Retrocomputing Page
        http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/
     25 Stan Sieler
        http://www.allegro.com/people/sieler/index.html
     83 Geek and Guru
        http://www.geekandguru.com
      2 Robots Wanted
        http://www.robotswanted.com
      1 UK Classic Computing
        http://www.classiccomputing.co.uk
      4 the antique computer virtual museum
        http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm
     44 Computer Museum
        http://fee.co.uk
      2 Tom's Classic Computers
        http://home.interpath.net/tcopper/index.html
   4486 Obsolete Computer Museum
        http://www.obsoletecomputermuseum.org/
     98 Jim's Computer Garage
        http://www.computergarage.org
      0 pcbiography.com
        http://www.pcbiography.com
     21 The Leonard Home Page
        http://www.outnumbered.org
     13 Computer Collection
        http://www.mycomputers.org.uk
     24 Retrospective of Xerox Alto, Star 8010 and Elixir Desktop
        http://www.damer.com/pictures/elixir/products/star.html
     20 The Degrader
        http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Sector/4582/degrader.html
      0 League Of Kentucky Sportsmen
        http://www.loks.org
      2 arthurton.com
        http://www.arthurton.com
      4 KitStop.Com
        http://www.kitstop.com
      0 JDS Computers Home
        http://members.tripod.com/Colts_44/jdsc1.htm
    100 A2Central.com
        http://www.a2central.com
      0 Obsolete Mania!!!
        http://obsoletemania.8m.com
      0 ICWhen.com
        http://www.icwhen.com
     24 DOS_forever
        http://members.theglobe.com/frn/dos_forever/links.html
      0
        http://www2.ucsc.edu/people/maryha/
      0 Computer History Links
        http://members.aol.com/Historycd/ComputerHistory1.htm
      1 Curtiss' Home Page
        http://www.pointecom.net/~islander
      1 The Amsterdam Post
        http://www.adampost.com
     10 The Near Future SurvPC Home
        http://survpc.virtualave.net/
     13 JD's Drury University Page
        http://198.209.54.227
      1 All I Need to Know About Computers I Learend from my TRS-80
        http://www.explainamation.com/words/trash80.htm

There is a clear winner :)  Congratulations to Tom Carlson.  You will soon
be $50 richer!

Sellam                                 International Man of Intrigue and Danger
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...

                       VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
               San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
                    See http://www.vintage.org for details!



From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com  Mon Oct  2 14:46:26 2000
From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: RL02 question
Message-ID: <F117hs6hdn1KVHYS8YV00009bea@hotmail.com>

DC = normal data cartridge, whereas I believe the EF = error free. What do 
you mean by set? If you mean that its turned red, then I would be less than 
enthusiastic about using them, and if I bought them on Ebay or something, 
I'd want my money back.

Will J
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.


From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com  Mon Oct  2 15:02:31 2000
From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: Mouse Systems mouse driver
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001002131132.009db610@mail.wincom.net>; from foxvideo@wincom.net on Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 01:13:41PM -0400
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20001002131132.009db610@mail.wincom.net>
Message-ID: <20001002130230.M22461@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com>

On Mon, Oct 02, 2000 at 01:13:41PM -0400, Charles E. Fox wrote:
>          Would anyone happen to have a Windows driver for the Mouse Systems 
> optical mouse that they could spare?

Which version of Windows?

I don't think I got the old serial kind working in newer versions of
Windows.  3.1 came with a driver.  Win95 might have worked, I forget;
seems like maybe I got the drivers off the Mouse Systems web page.

A couple years ago I got a PS/2 style Mouse Systems mouse, which doesn't 
require any special driver.  As I recall I did this so that I could use 
it in NT4, because I couldn't get the serial one working.  But nowadays
I use Linux exclusively.

XFree does support the serial mice too, though.

-- 
  _______                   Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD  ecloud@bigfoot.com
 (_  | |_)          http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud  kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org
 __) | | \________________________________________________________________
Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903

From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com  Mon Oct  2 15:13:43 2000
From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: PDP-11 history (was Re: Trash or Treasure?)
Message-ID: <20001002201343.36489.qmail@web9506.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Jim Arnott <jrasite@eoni.com> wrote:
> BTW, a short intro...
> 
> I'm Jim Arnott.  A former system admin for a LAN using: 11/24s, 11/23s and an
> 11/44.  O/S rt11sj, rt11sj and rsx11m+ respectively. All Decnetted together.
> (Coordinate measuring machines talking to the data gatherer.)  It's been a
> number of years, but I do remember a bit... Also was hooked to the ibm370
> through RJE-HASP.

Out of curiosity, how did you do the HASP connection?  I didn't know
anyone had an RT-11 HASP product.  There were several RSX-11 and RSTS
solutions, both from DEC and third parties.

-ethan


=====
Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to
vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com

The original webpage address is still going away.  The 
permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/

See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free!
http://photos.yahoo.com/

From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com  Mon Oct  2 15:42:34 2000
From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: VCF 4.0 is in the books ...
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001002133826.022e4310@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>

Well, the dust has settled and I'm trying to re-store all the stuff I 
dragged out for VCF 4.0...

I had a great time, placed a couple of VAXes into very nice homes (and Zane 
will be happy they both had VMS installed on them) and generally enjoyed 
meeting everyone again and talking old hardware.

This year the exhibit/market space was shared by the California Extreme 
pinball show/thing and it was, unfortunately, a bit loud. However it was 
most likely the largest number of 8 and 16 bit micros operating in a single 
space in all of California!

There was a great set of talks this year, I'm hoping to get tapes of the 
ones I missed. Overall, it was fun but exhausting.

Public thanks go to Sellam for "producing" this event, it is really great.

--Chuck


From dburrows at netpath.net  Mon Oct  2 15:33:16 2000
From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: RL02 question
Message-ID: <0e5e01c02cb1$d6503c70$a652e780@L166>

>I recently purchased a number of RL02 cartridges. Some are labeled:
>RL02K-DC and some RL02K-EF.
>
>What's the difference between them?

The -EF were error free.

>
>One had one side of the shock indicator set, a second had both set.
>
>Would it be a really bad idea to use either of these, or just a bad
>idea?

Depends of how brave you are.:)
Clean the heads first anyway.
Inspect them closely for any dings.  Especially on the edges of the
platters.  Then be ready to spin the drive down if you hear anything when it
first loads.
Then inspect the heads again for oxide whether you heard anything or not.

Dan



From healyzh at aracnet.com  Mon Oct  2 16:23:50 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: VCF 4.0 is in the books ...
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001002133826.022e4310@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Oct 02, 2000 01:42:34 PM
Message-ID: <200010022123.OAA04964@shell1.aracnet.com>

Chuck McManis wrote:
> I had a great time, placed a couple of VAXes into very nice homes (and Zane 
> will be happy they both had VMS installed on them) and generally enjoyed 
> meeting everyone again and talking old hardware.

That's a relief, I'm glad to hear that you weren't selling 'tainted' goods
at VCF :^)

			Zane


From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com  Mon Oct  2 16:38:51 2000
From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: British digital computers in 1944
Message-ID: <20001002143851.N22461@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com>

Interesting bit of discussion...I know better than to repeat the headline
claiming it was the first though.  :-)

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/10/01/0042253&mode=thread

-- 
  _______                   Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD  ecloud@bigfoot.com
 (_  | |_)          http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud  kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org
 __) | | \________________________________________________________________
Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903

From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com  Mon Oct  2 16:51:10 2000
From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: Switching RS-423 connections?
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001002144725.02304380@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>

Hello everyone, I would like to build a "4:1" box that can switch between 
one of four DEC MMJ consoles. This is so my mini-cluster can have one 
terminal be the console for four machines. However, I've noticed that 
sometimes I get a 'break' sent if I simply unplug and plug, so to prevent 
that I want to make a "hold" circuit such that the VAX will continue to 
thing a terminal is attached. Any suggestions?

--Chuck


From jrasite at eoni.com  Mon Oct  2 16:53:19 2000
From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: PDP-11 history (was Re: Trash or Treasure?)
References: <20001002201343.36489.qmail@web9506.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <39D903CD.4A930A5A@eoni.com>

It was decnet between the rt11 systems and the rsx system.  The rsx system
(11/44) was hasped to the ibm using a leased line. (General Dynamics Convair
in San Diego.  The pdps were at Lindberg Field and the IBM lived about 12
miles away on Kearny Meas.)  The RJE-HASP software was supplied by Dec, but
was (as I remember) unsupported software.

Jim

From jlewczyk at his.com  Mon Oct  2 16:55:46 2000
From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: VCF 4.0 - how was it?
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001002133826.022e4310@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>
Message-ID: <000601c02cbb$84981600$013da8c0@Corellian>

Anyone who attended care to share their impressions of it?  I didn't get to
attend this year.


From epgroot at ucdavis.edu  Mon Oct  2 16:57:14 2000
From: epgroot at ucdavis.edu (Edwin P. Groot)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: VCF 4.0 is in the books ...
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001002133826.022e4310@mailhost.hq.freegate.com
 >
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001002145714.007c8260@yellow.ucdavis.edu>

     Hear, hear, the talks in my opinion were the best part of the
festival. I found it fascinating to hear anecdotes 20-40 years back from
Jim Warren, Lee Felsenstein, Bill Godbout, Larry Tesler, Bob Brubaker and
others. I had a nice chat with Lee Felsenstein (who was part of the
development of the Osborne 1) while tooling around on Robert's (he had a
NeXT exhibit) Osborne. Too bad I had not registered for an exhibit ;_-  
     Well, Chuck, hopefully the snap-crackle-pop of Jim Willing's
Polymorphic 8813 will be on the tape! Good pyrotechnic show! Oh, and also
educational.
     Thanks Sellam. But why is he "producer" in ""'s?

At 01:42 PM 10/2/2000 -0700, you wrote:
>There was a great set of talks this year, I'm hoping to get tapes of the 
>ones I missed. Overall, it was fun but exhausting.
>
>Public thanks go to Sellam for "producing" this event, it is really great.
>
>--Chuck
>

     Edwin Groot
     Rost Lab PostDoc
     2137 LSA, U.C. Davis
     (530)752-9505

From jrasite at eoni.com  Mon Oct  2 17:01:11 2000
From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: Need SCSI interface for Microvax 3400
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009302256360.14286-100000@siconic.com>
	 <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009302256360.14286-100000@siconic.com>
	 <v04020a12b5fe77d26c03@[192.168.1.5]> <v04210111b5fe7c95aa50@[157.178.130.128]>
Message-ID: <39D905A4.DA5F77F8@eoni.com>

There's a 'Working' Vax 3400 on ebay right now at a dollar...

Jim

Bob Brown wrote:
> 
> How much do early 3100's cost these days?
> 
> -Bob

From richard at idcomm.com  Mon Oct  2 17:24:24 2000
From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: Mouse Systems mouse driver
References: <5.0.0.25.0.20001002131132.009db610@mail.wincom.net>
Message-ID: <000901c02cbf$866c6400$0500fea9@winbook>

The one I've used is the MSMOUSE.DRV that comes on the Windows distribution
disk set.

Dick

----- Original Message -----
From: Charles E. Fox <foxvideo@wincom.net>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2000 11:13 AM
Subject: Mouse Systems mouse driver


>
>
>
>          Would anyone happen to have a Windows driver for the Mouse
Systems
> optical mouse that they could spare?
>
>                                          Thanks
>                                          Charlie Fox
>
>                                  Charles E. Fox
>                          Chas E. Fox Video Productions
>                  793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ontario Canada
>                  (519)254-4991, Fax (519)256-3388 foxvideo@wincom.net
>                  Check out: The Old Walkerville Virtual Museum at
>                  http://skyboom.com/foxvideo  and  Camcorder Kindergarten
at
>                          http://chasfoxvideo.com
>
>


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Mon Oct  2 17:27:17 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: Need SCSI interface for Microvax 3400
In-Reply-To: <39D905A4.DA5F77F8@eoni.com> from "Jim Arnott" at Oct 02, 2000 03:01:11 PM
Message-ID: <200010022227.PAA14052@shell1.aracnet.com>

> Bob Brown wrote:
> > 
> > How much do early 3100's cost these days?
> > 
> > -Bob
> 
> 
> There's a 'Working' Vax 3400 on ebay right now at a dollar...
> 
> Jim
> 

MicroVAX 3400 .ne. MicroVAX/VAXstation 3100

Bob is looking to add affordable SCSI to a MV3400, that's where the early
3100 comes into play :^)

Oddly enough there aren't any 3100's on eBay at the moment.

			Zane

From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com  Mon Oct  2 18:56:36 2000
From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: Changing logicals on VMS? 
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001002165422.00c3c860@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>

I know, I should ask info-vax. But I'm not subscribed there :-(

I changed the nodename on my DSSI drive (looks like an HSC50 to the VAX) 
and it still boots VMS but SYS$SYSDEVICE is set to $24$DIA264 not the 
newer, more friendly SYSTEM$DIA0: I tried doing an autogen but that didn't 
seem to change anything :-).  Clues?

--Chuck


From jrasite at eoni.com  Mon Oct  2 19:08:10 2000
From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: Need SCSI interface for Microvax 3400
References: <200010022227.PAA14052@shell1.aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <39D92369.A65A04F7@eoni.com>

I beg to differ...  try: <http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=452022321>

Currently $10.

Jim

From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org  Mon Oct  2 19:28:12 2000
From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: Mouse Systems mouse driver
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001002131132.009db610@mail.wincom.net> from "Charles
 E. Fox" at "Oct 2, 2000 01:13:41 pm"
Message-ID: <200010030028.e930SC203826@bg-tc-ppp1036.monmouth.com>

> 
> 
> 
>          Would anyone happen to have a Windows driver for the Mouse Systems 
> optical mouse that they could spare?
> 
>                                          Thanks
>                                          Charlie Fox
> 

I've got some for clone Mouse Systems mice under Windows 3.x...
There was a driver for mouse systems mice with Microsoft  Win3.x.

I've even got a couple of the 25 pin connector Mouse Systems mice
here -- but no real Mouse Systems driver.

Microsoft's web shows a known problem with the Mscmouse.com driver
with the following resolution
   
RESOLUTION

   Remove the Mscmouse.com line in the Autoexec.bat file and then install
   the Mouse Systems driver update available from the Mouse Systems BBS.
   Use any text editor (such as Notepad) to open the Win.ini file in the
   Windows folder and remove the Gui.exe entry from the "load=" line.
   Save the Win.ini file, close it, and then restart your computer.
   
So -- they must be in business with a BBS.

The folks at Network Solutions show them as follows -- with Verio
doing their internet stuff...

Registrant:
Mouse Systems Corporation (MOUSESYSTEMS-DOM)
   41660 Boscell Rd.
   Fremont, CA 94538
   US

   Domain Name: MOUSESYSTEMS.COM

   Administrative Contact:
      Webmaster  (WE1118-ORG)  webmaster@MOUSESYSTEMS.COM
      Mouse Systems Corp.
      41660 Boscell Rd.
      Fremont,, CA 94538
      US
      510-656-1117
      Fax- 510-656-4409


Bill
-- 
bpechter@monmouth.com      |     Microsoft: Where do you want to go today?
                           |     Linux:     Where do you want to go tomorrow?
                           |     BSD:       Are you guys coming, or what?

From eric at brouhaha.com  Mon Oct  2 19:24:32 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: [OT] Re: Speed Limits
In-Reply-To: <yam8306.2332.123036848@ccp.com> (message from Gary Hildebrand on
	Thu, 28 Sep 2000 21:57:46 -0600)
References: <yam8306.2332.123036848@ccp.com>
Message-ID: <20001003002432.8339.qmail@brouhaha.com>

John wrote:
> I believe I saw 75MPH in rural Kansas just two years ago.

Gary wrote:
> That was on the Turnpike.  It is essentially a private highway, so it has
> always been exempt from Federal speed limits.

Not so.  While the Federal government has never had the authority to
set state or local speed limits, they blackmailed the states by
threatening to withhold federal highway funds if the states set speed
limits higher than those approved by Congress, originally 55 MPH imposed
in 1973, later lifted to 65 MPH (with some restrictions) around 1986.

At least part of the Kansas Turnpike is a Federal Interstate highway
(I-70), but it would have been covered under this blackmail even if
it hadn't been.

When Congress raised the limit to 65 MPH, that ONLY applied to Federal
Interstate highways.  The state of Florida decided to raise the limit on
the Florida Turnpike, which is not an Interstate, and was notified by
the DOT that if they didn't drop it back to 55 within 24 hours, they
would lose their highway funding.  Unsurprisingly, they chose to
change it back.

It was only a few years ago that Congress passed a new law doing away
with the blackmail.  Now states can set their own speed limits without
fear of losing federal funding.

From eric at brouhaha.com  Mon Oct  2 19:28:06 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: Slowly blowing a CRT?
In-Reply-To: <39D400F6.9AA2C02D@home.net> (message from Neil Cherry on Thu, 28
	Sep 2000 22:39:50 -0400)
References: <012201c029bc$294d5be0$c6a17ed8@xyz.wmsnet.com> <39D400F6.9AA2C02D@home.net>
Message-ID: <20001003002806.8398.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Neil asks:
> Would a 3 ft long insulated screw driver and ground wire going to a
> cold water pipe qualify (yes that's how we did it at a repair center)?
> I hated those loud bangs!

The CRT acts as a big capacitor, and stores a substantial charge.  Even
if discharged, it will accumulate a charge over time.

If you just ground the second anode to a cold water pipe, that will not
discharge it, unless the frame of the CRT is also grounded to the pipe.

From eric at brouhaha.com  Mon Oct  2 19:29:27 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: Got my PDP-11/34! Now what?
In-Reply-To: <000e01c02a22$abea7d60$5c713ed8@compaq> (message from Owen
	Robertson on Fri, 29 Sep 2000 09:36:35 -0500)
References: <200009290955.e8T9tks00502@bg-tc-ppp899.monmouth.com> <000e01c02a22$abea7d60$5c713ed8@compaq>
Message-ID: <20001003002927.8432.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Owen writes:
> Yes. Mine has an M9312. I can halt the system now, but nothing appears on
> the terminal screen. Also -- should the RUN light be coming on when I first
> turn on the CPU?

The M9312 has a diagnostic PROM, and up to four boot PROMs, but no
virtual console.

From eric at brouhaha.com  Mon Oct  2 19:36:19 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: Got my PDP-11/34! Now what?
In-Reply-To: <m13f4sk-000IyRC@p850ug1> (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk)
References: <m13f4sk-000IyRC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <20001003003619.8529.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Tony wrote:
> Don't you have an M9312 instead? That's a later version of the M9301 
> (with a number of electical differences which needn't bother you for the 
> moment), and it almost always contains the console emulator program.

I thought it was the other way around.  I've got an M9301 manual but
no M9312 manual.  Almost all M9301 variants have the virtual console,
but unfortunately the M9301-YC (the only variant I have) does not.

AFAIK the M9312 normally has the 23-616F1 diagnostic PROM, which does
not have the virtual console.

From healyzh at aracnet.com  Mon Oct  2 19:45:29 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: Changing logicals on VMS?
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001002165422.00c3c860@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Oct 02, 2000 04:56:36 PM
Message-ID: <200010030045.RAA02963@shell1.aracnet.com>

> 
> I know, I should ask info-vax. But I'm not subscribed there :-(
> 
> I changed the nodename on my DSSI drive (looks like an HSC50 to the VAX) 
> and it still boots VMS but SYS$SYSDEVICE is set to $24$DIA264 not the 
> newer, more friendly SYSTEM$DIA0: I tried doing an autogen but that didn't 
> seem to change anything :-).  Clues?
> 
> --Chuck
> 

Off the top of my head I'd say look at SYLOGICALS.COM 

If it's not in there it might be defined in SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM

BTW:
$ define/sys/exec SYS$SYSDEVICE SYSTEM$DIA0:

		Zane

From healyzh at aracnet.com  Mon Oct  2 19:50:00 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: Need SCSI interface for Microvax 3400
In-Reply-To: <39D92369.A65A04F7@eoni.com> from "Jim Arnott" at Oct 02, 2000 05:08:10 PM
Message-ID: <200010030050.RAA03547@shell1.aracnet.com>

> 
> I beg to differ...  try: <http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=452022321>
> 
> Currently $10.
> 
> Jim
> 

OK, I missed that 3100 somehow :^)  Looks like that's exactly what the
original poster needs.

			Zane

From rmeenaks at olf.com  Mon Oct  2 19:38:09 2000
From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: Need help identifying the following IC/CHIP
Message-ID: <001801c02cd2$34f54f20$d4ea0191@olf.com>

Hi,

As my transputer collection increases, I just received a broken BBK-S4 (Sparc-based SBUS transputer link adapter).  As far as I can tell, the only broken piece is the firmware IC.  The IC actually was broken in half exposing the actual IC.  I think someone was trying to extract it incorrectly and it opened up.  The delicate wires are snapped as well.  I hope that the firmware is downloaded to the chip each time it is fired up, but I am not sure.  The chip is labelled as:

TOSHIBA
TC57H256D-70
JAPAN 8906YAA
VPP 12.5V

Does anyone know what type of IC this is and where I can obtain one?  I would love to install this on my IPX and connect my T805-30MHz Xplorer to it.  Thanks


Ram
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From jpero at sympatico.ca  Mon Oct  2 16:16:56 2000
From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: Need help identifying the following IC/CHIP
In-Reply-To: <001801c02cd2$34f54f20$d4ea0191@olf.com>
Message-ID: <20001003011745.CWWC3919.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@pii350>

> From:          "Ram Meenakshisundaram" <rmeenaks@olf.com>
> To:            <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
> Subject:       Need help identifying the following IC/CHIP
> Date:          Mon, 2 Oct 2000 20:38:09 -0400
> Reply-to:      classiccmp@classiccmp.org

> Hi,
> 
> As my transputer collection increases, I just received a broken BBK-S4 (Sparc-based SBUS transputer link adapter).  As far as I can tell, the only broken piece is the firmware IC.  The IC actually wa> 
> TOSHIBA
> TC57H256D-70
> JAPAN 8906YAA
> VPP 12.5V
> 
> Does anyone know what type of IC this is and where I can obtain one?  I would love to install this on my IPX and connect my T805-30MHz Xplorer to it.  Thanks
> 
> 
> Ram

Hi,

That chip is eprom 32K x 8bit 70ns,  you need to get data from 
another who have extracted actual data from their intact eprom for 
that board and have someone else burn a replacement eprom.  Doesn't 
have to be toshiba chip.  Cost is not that expensive, appox 5 dollars 
for suitable used or new blanks  and labour cost.

That type of package, I find this hard to believe that can be broken 
unless someone snaps this in two intentionally.   Prying won't do 
that.  This takes real effort to break one even plastic ones is still 
hard to break without some kind of impact or gripped between two 
pliers.  WHY?

Years ago, I used to split open old lidless ceramic "sandwich" style 
ICs with a hammer and a chisel on it's seam.  It takes hard blow to 
do it.  Even 14pin ceramic sandwich is hard to split open.

Cheers!

Wizard 

From vaxman at uswest.net  Mon Oct  2 20:17:05 2000
From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: RL02 question
In-Reply-To: <0e5e01c02cb1$d6503c70$a652e780@L166>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1001002191608.11625A-100000@oldy.crwolff.com>


I haven't looked at these very close yet, but aren't the heads in the
drive, not the disk pack?

The only damage I can imagine is the bearings and/or races got munged
up...

clint


On Mon, 2 Oct 2000, Daniel T. Burrows wrote:

> >I recently purchased a number of RL02 cartridges. Some are labeled:
> >RL02K-DC and some RL02K-EF.
> >
> >What's the difference between them?
> 
> The -EF were error free.
> 
> >
> >One had one side of the shock indicator set, a second had both set.
> >
> >Would it be a really bad idea to use either of these, or just a bad
> >idea?
> 
> Depends of how brave you are.:)
> Clean the heads first anyway.
> Inspect them closely for any dings.  Especially on the edges of the
> platters.  Then be ready to spin the drive down if you hear anything when it
> first loads.
> Then inspect the heads again for oxide whether you heard anything or not.
> 
> Dan
> 
> 
> 
> 


From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au  Mon Oct  2 20:34:52 2000
From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: British digital computers in 1944
References: <20001002143851.N22461@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com>
Message-ID: <004501c02cda$20f391a0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Shawn T. Rutledge" <rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2000 7:08 AM
Subject: British digital computers in 1944


> Interesting bit of discussion...I know better than to repeat the
headline
> claiming it was the first though.  :-)
>
> http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/10/01/0042253&mode=thread

My understanding is that this statement is essentially correct.  The
existence of Colussus I and II has been a matter of public record for
some years now, although the engineering details were not.   The
GeheimSchreiber (Secret Writer) known to the BP crew as the "Fish"
machine was I think a predecessor to the Lorenz "Tunny" described in the
article, or it may even be the same machine.  The ENIAC was not built
until well after the end of WWII so Colussus I and II predate it by at
least 2 years.   I recall readin about it in at least 2 books, "Most
Secret War" by Dr.R.V. Jones (Head of British Scientific Intelligence
during WWII) and "The Ultra Secret" author?Possibly Fred Winterbotham -
(who was also involved in the early stages of establishing effective
British photo reconaissance - see a book called "Evidence in Camera" by
Constance Babbington-Smith, former RAF Photographic interpreter) both
mention it, and there are a couple of pictures of the original Colussus
in one or the other.   Much of the detail was still classified as late
as 1980, and some specific details are STILL classified.  A working
replica of the original Colossus has been built at Bletchley Park and
there is also a plan to build a replica of one of the "Bombes" used to
crack the Enigma code, following the discovery of the plans (long
thought to have been lost) in the records of the former British
Tabulating Machine Company, who were the builders. There was a brief
mention of it in the the BBC TV series "The Secret War" though it
focused more on the Enigma effort, and some details that could have gone
into the program (Made in the 80's after the bulk of material was
declassified) were still secret.  ISTR that the episode of the "The
Secret War" that dealt with it was in fact called "Still Secret".   Both
Constance Babbington-Smith and (now) Professor R.V. Jones appear in
several episodes of this series.

Cheers

Geoff Roberts
Computer Systems Manager
Saint Mark's College
Port Pirie,
South Australia
geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au
netcafe@tell.net.au
ICQ: 1970476


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Mon Oct  2 20:35:42 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: Need help identifying the following IC/CHIP
Message-ID: <00a901c02cda$e2f036a0$5f0a9a8d@ajp166>

From: Ram Meenakshisundaram <rmeenaks@olf.com>

TOSHIBA
TC57H256D-70
JAPAN 8906YAA
VPP 12.5V

Does anyone know what type of IC this is and where I can obtain one?  I
would love to install this on my IPX and connect my T805-30MHz Xplorer to
it.  Thanks


it's an Eprom or 256kbits size (27C256 class part).  Likely 28 pins?  The
giveaway is the Vpp
(programming voltage).  Also it sounds like a special version with a 70ns
access time.

Allison


From thompson at mail.athenet.net  Mon Oct  2 20:35:22 2000
From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: Changing logicals on VMS? 
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001002165422.00c3c860@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010021951010.27641-100000@perelandra.athenet.net>


The system$dia0 isn't especially newer or better.  It is the name of the
disk with the allocation class set to 0.  Check your drive firmware to
make sure that the alloclass on that disk didn't get changed to 24 wen you
changed the node name.

There is also a MSCP_ALLOCLASS parameter in SYSGEN but that is less likely
to be the culprit.

The allocation class is a mechanism to prevent like-named devices (i.e.
machines on a CI or DSSI each with a DxAxxx device) from confusing one
another.

 On Mon, 2 Oct 2000, Chuck McManis wrote:

> I know, I should ask info-vax. But I'm not subscribed there :-(
> 
> I changed the nodename on my DSSI drive (looks like an HSC50 to the VAX) 
> and it still boots VMS but SYS$SYSDEVICE is set to $24$DIA264 not the 
> newer, more friendly SYSTEM$DIA0: I tried doing an autogen but that didn't 
> seem to change anything :-).  Clues?
> 
> --Chuck
> 



From claudew at funcow.com  Mon Oct  2 20:59:41 2000
From: claudew at funcow.com (Claude)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: Need help identifying the following IC/CHIP
References: <001801c02cd2$34f54f20$d4ea0191@olf.com>
Message-ID: <39D93D8D.AD1CBEDA@funcow.com>

Well...

Looks like an EPROM. I imagine there was a glass window on top of the
chip...More or less the equivalent of floppy disk on a chip. Copied with
an EPROM programmer. Good luck in finding someone that can copy an
identical one for you...

Claude

> Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> As my transputer collection increases, I just received a broken BBK-S4
> (Sparc-based SBUS transputer link adapter).  As far as I can tell, the
> only broken piece is the firmware IC.  The IC actually was broken in
> half exposing the actual IC.  I think someone was trying to extract it
> incorrectly and it opened up.  The delicate wires are snapped as
> well.  I hope that the firmware is downloaded to the chip each time it
> is fired up, but I am not sure.  The chip is labelled as:
> 
> TOSHIBA
> TC57H256D-70
> JAPAN 8906YAA
> VPP 12.5V
> 
> Does anyone know what type of IC this is and where I can obtain one?
> I would love to install this on my IPX and connect my T805-30MHz
> Xplorer to it.  Thanks
> 
> 
> Ram

From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com  Mon Oct  2 20:48:46 2000
From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: HP 1600A State analyzer available
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20001002184637.020c6c90@208.226.86.10>

Sorry but it has no probes, these will have to be scavenged for. Its in 
pretty good shape and easily meets the 10 year rule. Probes aren't too hard 
to find if you look carefully. Anyway, its free for the cost of shipping it 
somewhere, or if you are near Sunnyvale California (94087) then you can 
just pick it up.

--Chuck


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Mon Oct  2 21:09:06 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: RL02 question
Message-ID: <00b801c02cdf$2818ffb0$5f0a9a8d@ajp166>

From: Clint Wolff (VAX collector) <vaxman@uswest.net>
>I haven't looked at these very close yet, but aren't the heads in the
>drive, not the disk pack?
>
>The only damage I can imagine is the bearings and/or races got munged
>up...
>
>clint


The packs consist of a hub assembly (no bearings) that matches up
with the magnetic clutch on the spindle of the drive.  The platter being
nearly 14" is susceptable to warping from high shocks.

I'd consider popping it out of the plastic pack and mounting it on a try
spindle and giving it a spin in free air to see if the the platter is
warped.

If the heads make contact it could be catastrophic and a PITA to
mount and align a new set.

Allison

>
>
>On Mon, 2 Oct 2000, Daniel T. Burrows wrote:
>
>> >I recently purchased a number of RL02 cartridges. Some are labeled:
>> >RL02K-DC and some RL02K-EF.
>> >
>> >What's the difference between them?
>>
>> The -EF were error free.
>>
>> >
>> >One had one side of the shock indicator set, a second had both set.
>> >
>> >Would it be a really bad idea to use either of these, or just a bad
>> >idea?
>>
>> Depends of how brave you are.:)
>> Clean the heads first anyway.
>> Inspect them closely for any dings.  Especially on the edges of the
>> platters.  Then be ready to spin the drive down if you hear anything
when it
>> first loads.
>> Then inspect the heads again for oxide whether you heard anything or
not.
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>


From dburrows at netpath.net  Mon Oct  2 20:59:48 2000
From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: RL02 question
Message-ID: <0efa01c02cde$05761340$a652e780@L166>

>I haven't looked at these very close yet, but aren't the heads in the
>drive, not the disk pack?

Correct.
>
>The only damage I can imagine is the bearings and/or races got munged
>up...

I was meaning after you spun the disk up the first time.  Even if you did
not hear or smell anything.  All to often you will not hear a head crash but
you can smell the burning.  Usually however with RL02's you will hear a ting
stype of sound when they are crashing.

Dan
>
>clint
>
>
>On Mon, 2 Oct 2000, Daniel T. Burrows wrote:
>
>> >I recently purchased a number of RL02 cartridges. Some are labeled:
>> >RL02K-DC and some RL02K-EF.
>> >
>> >What's the difference between them?
>>
>> The -EF were error free.
>>
>> >
>> >One had one side of the shock indicator set, a second had both set.
>> >
>> >Would it be a really bad idea to use either of these, or just a bad
>> >idea?
>>
>> Depends of how brave you are.:)
>> Clean the heads first anyway.
>> Inspect them closely for any dings.  Especially on the edges of the
>> platters.  Then be ready to spin the drive down if you hear anything when
it
>> first loads.
>> Then inspect the heads again for oxide whether you heard anything or not.
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>
>>
>>


From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Mon Oct  2 22:18:37 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: British digital computers in 1944
In-Reply-To: <004501c02cda$20f391a0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au>
References: <20001002143851.N22461@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001002221837.3c87e694@mailhost.intellistar.net>

>Subject: British digital computers in 1944
>
>
>> Interesting bit of discussion...I know better than to repeat the
>headline
>> claiming it was the first though.  :-)
>>
>> http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/10/01/0042253&mode=thread

    I just spent several hours looking at this site and it's associated
links. I HIGHLY recommend reading it.

   Joe



From cfandt at netsync.net  Mon Oct  2 21:57:45 2000
From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: Looking for VMEbus module manuals
Message-ID: <4.1.20001002224840.00cc27e0@206.231.8.2>

I periodically poll the list to see if anyone has the following manuals
that I'm looking for. Been a long time, so here goes again :-)  :

I have a couple of Mizar VMEbus Video boards, model 7710. Has anybody an
operator's/technical manual? Either an original or decent xerographic copy
will do. Has anybody written an OS-9/68K ver. 2.3 or 2.4 driver for this
thing? These are 1989 vintage.

I'm also looking for the following Motorola VMEbus Module manuals:

**  MVME 236-1,2,3  (Publication number  MVME 236-1 Dx ), DRAM memory module
(x = version or edition number. I'll take any version.)

**  MVME 133-1        (Publication number  MVME 133-1 Dx ), Processor module

**  Support Docs manual for this processor:    SIMVME133-1

**  MVME134bug     (Publication number  MVME134bug Dx ), debugger manual
for '134 processor module 

**  Support Documentation (schematics, etc.) for an MVME147S  which is
publication number SIMVME147S. Already have the manual.

**  Xycom XVME 682 -which is a VMEbus PC/AT (Intel 286) processor module 

**  I'm also looking for Xycom catalogs and any tech documentation from
back in the mid-80's. 

Thanks for your help! 

Regards,  Chris
-- --
Christian Fandt,         Electronic/Electrical Historian
Jamestown, NY  USA      cfandt@netsync.net
        Member of Antique Wireless Association                         
        URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/

From chris at routerguy.com  Mon Oct  2 22:01:09 2000
From: chris at routerguy.com (Chris Johnston)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: Looking for ASR33 in SoCal
Message-ID: <39D94BF5.CCEDB5BA@routerguy.com>

Hello.

I need spare parts for my ASR 33 and/or looking for enough to refurb
another unit.  Preferably one now with the "internal" acoustic coupler
modem.

If you are in SoCal and have one, let me know.

Chris Johnston
chris@routerguy.com


From thompson at mail.athenet.net  Mon Oct  2 22:09:02 2000
From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: Changing logicals on VMS? 
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010021951010.27641-100000@perelandra.athenet.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010022157130.27942-100000@perelandra.athenet.net>


Some firmwares also have a parameter containing a number to add to the
UNITNUM to make the final device name seen on the host. This might account
for your DIA0 -> DIA264 

Here are the exact names of the firmware parameters which might be
relevant.  I don't have a drive on line with the "add to unitnum"
parameters.

ALLCLASS                 0                 0      Byte    Dec   B
UNITNUM                  0                 0      Word    Dec   U
FORCEUNI                 0                 1   Boolean    0/1   U

On Mon, 2 Oct 2000, Paul Thompson wrote:

> 
> The system$dia0 isn't especially newer or better.  It is the name of the
> disk with the allocation class set to 0.  Check your drive firmware to
> make sure that the alloclass on that disk didn't get changed to 24 wen you
> changed the node name.
> 
> There is also a MSCP_ALLOCLASS parameter in SYSGEN but that is less likely
> to be the culprit.
> 
> The allocation class is a mechanism to prevent like-named devices (i.e.
> machines on a CI or DSSI each with a DxAxxx device) from confusing one
> another.
> 
>  On Mon, 2 Oct 2000, Chuck McManis wrote:
> 
> > I know, I should ask info-vax. But I'm not subscribed there :-(
> > 
> > I changed the nodename on my DSSI drive (looks like an HSC50 to the VAX) 
> > and it still boots VMS but SYS$SYSDEVICE is set to $24$DIA264 not the 
> > newer, more friendly SYSTEM$DIA0: I tried doing an autogen but that didn't 
> > seem to change anything :-).  Clues?
> > 
> > --Chuck
> > 
> 
> 



From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com  Mon Oct  2 22:21:27 2000
From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: Changing logicals on VMS? 
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010021951010.27641-100000@perelandra.athen
 et.net>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001002165422.00c3c860@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20001002201320.00e5abe0@208.226.86.10>

Hi Paul,

This isn't an allocation class issue. Its something I brought on myself, 
and for that am paying the price :-). My true question is whether or not 
I'm going to be stuck re-installing VMS, however given the way VMS works 
I'm sure there is some voodoo to fix it.

I got in this mess as follows:

I installed an RF72 drive into my 4000/200 and proceeded to do a 'sho dev' 
on it. It showed up on the DSSI bus as $24$DIA264:

I then installed VMS 7.2 on to this drive, followed by a bunch of layered 
products.

Then I read in the KA660 technical manual how to "talk" to the DSSI drives, 
(which is very arcane using the KFQSA but a snap on the KA640 and KA660) 
and proceeded to tell the drive to call itself node SYSTEM and unit 0.

This worked fine, and I noted that I could now boot the system by 
specifying DIA0: rather than DIA264: (which I never could remember anyway).

Then I went to install another layered product. That installation failed 
because it couldn't find a file is was expecting in 
SYS$SYSDEVICE:[SY0.SYSTEMP] (or something very similar). So I did a dir 
SYS$SYSDEVICE: and sure enough there was nothing there, then I did a SHOW 
LOGICALS and from there discovered that SYS$SYSDEVICE: was defined to be 
$24$DIA264: (the original name of the DSSI drive)

Now I could name it back again. But I'd rather tell VMS where the SYSDEVICE 
now sits (for all the system, like on a permanent basis). If I 'define' it, 
it changes for the current process but doesn't change universally and more 
importantly other things are stuck that way to.

Nothing is SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM defines these so they must be in a parameter 
database somewhere else. That is where I'm looking now ...

On a somewhat related note, I went out and forked over $100 for a true 5 
port switch so that I can put my VLC cluster on a switch! Now all I need is 
a console multiplexor.

--Chuck

At 08:35 PM 10/2/00 -0500, you wrote:

>The system$dia0 isn't especially newer or better.  It is the name of the
>disk with the allocation class set to 0.  Check your drive firmware to
>make sure that the alloclass on that disk didn't get changed to 24 wen you
>changed the node name.
>
>There is also a MSCP_ALLOCLASS parameter in SYSGEN but that is less likely
>to be the culprit.
>
>The allocation class is a mechanism to prevent like-named devices (i.e.
>machines on a CI or DSSI each with a DxAxxx device) from confusing one
>another.
>
>  On Mon, 2 Oct 2000, Chuck McManis wrote:
>
> > I know, I should ask info-vax. But I'm not subscribed there :-(
> >
> > I changed the nodename on my DSSI drive (looks like an HSC50 to the VAX)
> > and it still boots VMS but SYS$SYSDEVICE is set to $24$DIA264 not the
> > newer, more friendly SYSTEM$DIA0: I tried doing an autogen but that didn't
> > seem to change anything :-).  Clues?
> >
> > --Chuck
> >
>



From ncherry at home.net  Mon Oct  2 22:47:11 2000
From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: Need SCSI interface for Microvax 3400
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009302256360.14286-100000@siconic.com>
	 <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009302256360.14286-100000@siconic.com>
	 <v04020a12b5fe77d26c03@[192.168.1.5]> <v04210111b5fe7c95aa50@[157.178.130.128]>
Message-ID: <39D956BF.C264B23E@home.net>

Bob Brown wrote:
> 
> How much do early 3100's cost these days?

I got mine on ebay for $40.99 but I haven't seen it yet (yes I know I'm taking
a chance on a junker).

> 
> -Bob
> 
> >Bob Brown wrote:
> > >I recently acquired a microvax 3400, and I will shortly have a dec
> > >CDROM drive (RRD42-AA).  I am looking for a scsi interface for the
> > >microvax so that, when I finally get my decus membership ID, I can
> > >get the latest VMS cd's and reinstall (I currently have VMS 5.1 installed).
> > >
> > >
> > >Any ideas on where I might find a scsi interface for this system?
> >
> >OK, this is going to sound a bit odd....  The cheapest SCSI interface
> >you're going to find is something like a VAXstation 3100/10.  You put the
> >SCSI disks (and tapes) on it, and cluster the two systems together.  Early
> >3100's are dirt cheap these days.
> >
> >If you have two drives and they're big enough on the MV3400, you can do
> >like I did for my MicroVAX 3.  I simply backed up the Hobbyist CD, copied
> >it over the network to a RA73 and restored it to a RA72, then I booted off
> >the RA72.  Since you already have VMS installed on the MV3400 this should
> >work for you also (I had 5.5-2 on a RD54 when I did it).

Cool idea, I've got to remember that one. Of course that is the power of these
beasts isn't it? :-)

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

From healyzh at aracnet.com  Mon Oct  2 22:48:55 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: Changing logicals on VMS?
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20001002201320.00e5abe0@208.226.86.10> from "Chuck McManis" at Oct 02, 2000 08:21:27 PM
Message-ID: <200010030348.UAA21885@shell1.aracnet.com>

> On a somewhat related note, I went out and forked over $100 for a true 5 
> port switch so that I can put my VLC cluster on a switch! 

Cool!  But, do you see any real benefit from this?

> Now all I need is a console multiplexor.

Any idea's?  This is something I *REALLY* need.

			Zane

From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com  Mon Oct  2 23:07:17 2000
From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: Need SCSI interface for Microvax 3400
In-Reply-To: <39D956BF.C264B23E@home.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009302256360.14286-100000@siconic.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.10.10009302256360.14286-100000@siconic.com>
 <v04020a12b5fe77d26c03@[192.168.1.5]>
 <v04210111b5fe7c95aa50@[157.178.130.128]>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20001002210438.00d0b330@208.226.86.10>

I've got one that doesn't boot. It powers up (the power supply is good :-)

The history was that it was given to me, I tried powering it up, it didn't 
do anything, I took it apart, saw that it had no memory so I put some 
memory in (backwards!) and powered it up? Still nothing, noted the memory 
was in backward, threw out that memory and put in another memory board 
correctly, powered it up and still nada. The diag leds go through a few 
steps and then stop with all of them on.

Anyway, if anyone wants it I'd be happy to box it up and send it to them 
for the cost of shipping.
--Chuck

At 11:47 PM 10/2/00 -0400, you wrote:
>Bob Brown wrote:
> >
> > How much do early 3100's cost these days?
>
>I got mine on ebay for $40.99 but I haven't seen it yet (yes I know I'm taking
>a chance on a junker).
>
> >
> > -Bob
> >
> > >Bob Brown wrote:
> > > >I recently acquired a microvax 3400, and I will shortly have a dec
> > > >CDROM drive (RRD42-AA).  I am looking for a scsi interface for the
> > > >microvax so that, when I finally get my decus membership ID, I can
> > > >get the latest VMS cd's and reinstall (I currently have VMS 5.1 
> installed).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Any ideas on where I might find a scsi interface for this system?
> > >
> > >OK, this is going to sound a bit odd....  The cheapest SCSI interface
> > >you're going to find is something like a VAXstation 3100/10.  You put the
> > >SCSI disks (and tapes) on it, and cluster the two systems together.  Early
> > >3100's are dirt cheap these days.
> > >
> > >If you have two drives and they're big enough on the MV3400, you can do
> > >like I did for my MicroVAX 3.  I simply backed up the Hobbyist CD, copied
> > >it over the network to a RA73 and restored it to a RA72, then I booted off
> > >the RA72.  Since you already have VMS installed on the MV3400 this should
> > >work for you also (I had 5.5-2 on a RD54 when I did it).
>
>Cool idea, I've got to remember that one. Of course that is the power of these
>beasts isn't it? :-)
>
>--
>Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
>http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
>http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
>http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/                         (SourceForge)



From healyzh at aracnet.com  Mon Oct  2 23:18:10 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: Need SCSI interface for Microvax 3400
In-Reply-To: <39D956BF.C264B23E@home.net> from "Neil Cherry" at Oct 02, 2000 11:47:11 PM
Message-ID: <200010030418.VAA24927@shell1.aracnet.com>

> > >If you have two drives and they're big enough on the MV3400, you can do
> > >like I did for my MicroVAX 3.  I simply backed up the Hobbyist CD, copied
> > >it over the network to a RA73 and restored it to a RA72, then I booted off
> > >the RA72.  Since you already have VMS installed on the MV3400 this should
> > >work for you also (I had 5.5-2 on a RD54 when I did it).
> 
> Cool idea, I've got to remember that one. Of course that is the power of these
> beasts isn't it? :-)

One of these days in my "massive" amounts of free time I want to figure out
how to do this without having a boot disk on the target system.  All that
should need to be done is set up the one machine as a boot server and boot
the other off of the cluster boot disk.  It may be possible to do the whole
install over the network.  I've just not had the time to play.

I love VMS Clusters!  I'm fighting a problem with configuration of a VAX I'm
trying to bring into my cluster and I told it to reboot.  It didn't come up
to the point where I can log in (don't actually have physical access to it
right now so am not sure where it stopped).  However, I was still able to
mount it's system disk on another machine in the cluster to work on trying
to figure out what I did wrong and reverse the changes I made (I also love a
having a versioning filesystem).

Actually the one project I'm trying to find time to do is rebuild my entire
cluster.  I've got enough spare systems I'll do most of the work on them,
and when the time comes move the system disks into place on the real
systems.  Like I said, I love VMS Clusters!  

			   Zane

From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com  Mon Oct  2 23:56:50 2000
From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: Changing logicals on VMS?
In-Reply-To: <200010030348.UAA21885@shell1.aracnet.com>
References: <4.3.1.2.20001002201320.00e5abe0@208.226.86.10>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20001002210807.00d0aa40@208.226.86.10>

At 08:48 PM 10/2/00 -0700, Zane wrote:
> > On a somewhat related note, I went out and forked over $100 for a true 5
> > port switch so that I can put my VLC cluster on a switch!
>
>Cool!  But, do you see any real benefit from this?

You bet, this "traffic" on the NI backbone doesn't interfere with each 
other. So if one system is swapping on a cluster disk and another is just 
doing telnet type access then they both "see" a full 10MBits of bandwidth. 
The only time you get collisions is when two systems try to access the same 
third party and the switch can often interleave those packets such that 
there are way fewer collisions.

> > Now all I need is a console multiplexor.
>Any idea's?  This is something I *REALLY* need.

Well its "easy" to do in a powered box. A few of the CMOS switches, a few 
connectors, and you're done. I even figured I could switch it remotely by 
using the DTR line coming up to "toggle" the next system. Thus running 
something like HyperTerm and doing disconnect/reconnect type operations 
would cycle through each console. My issue is that I'm trying to do it all 
passively and that leads to some questions about tying lines together 
before you break contact. (and mechanical switches are so much harder to 
control). My "worst" idea is to use a "wall wart" type supply to bring 
power to the switch box, second worst is to run a couple of lines off the 
supply in the top VLC. I suspect its too much current to uses the "phantom 
power" trick on the RS232 port.

--Chuck

(Of course if I want to be anal I can run all the consoles into the 
harmonica box off a CXYA16 in the 4000/200 and use that machine as a 
console server)




From thompson at mail.athenet.net  Mon Oct  2 23:53:17 2000
From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: Changing logicals on VMS? 
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20001002201320.00e5abe0@208.226.86.10>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010022352050.28144-100000@perelandra.athenet.net>



Sorry, read your message backwards apparently....

I would look into sys$system:writeboot.exe.  It hardcodes the device name 
and location on disk of the minimal boot files.  Your location on disk is 
the same so theboot worked but I wonder if the incorrect device name is
lousing your logicals.

You can use writeboot to reset things correctly.  

On Mon, 2 Oct 2000, Chuck McManis wrote:

> Hi Paul,
> 
> This isn't an allocation class issue. Its something I brought on myself, 
> and for that am paying the price :-). My true question is whether or not 
> I'm going to be stuck re-installing VMS, however given the way VMS works 
> I'm sure there is some voodoo to fix it.
> 
> I got in this mess as follows:
> 
> I installed an RF72 drive into my 4000/200 and proceeded to do a 'sho dev' 
> on it. It showed up on the DSSI bus as $24$DIA264:
> 
> I then installed VMS 7.2 on to this drive, followed by a bunch of layered 
> products.
> 
> Then I read in the KA660 technical manual how to "talk" to the DSSI drives, 
> (which is very arcane using the KFQSA but a snap on the KA640 and KA660) 
> and proceeded to tell the drive to call itself node SYSTEM and unit 0.
> 
> This worked fine, and I noted that I could now boot the system by 
> specifying DIA0: rather than DIA264: (which I never could remember anyway).
> 
> Then I went to install another layered product. That installation failed 
> because it couldn't find a file is was expecting in 
> SYS$SYSDEVICE:[SY0.SYSTEMP] (or something very similar). So I did a dir 
> SYS$SYSDEVICE: and sure enough there was nothing there, then I did a SHOW 
> LOGICALS and from there discovered that SYS$SYSDEVICE: was defined to be 
> $24$DIA264: (the original name of the DSSI drive)
> 
> Now I could name it back again. But I'd rather tell VMS where the SYSDEVICE 
> now sits (for all the system, like on a permanent basis). If I 'define' it, 
> it changes for the current process but doesn't change universally and more 
> importantly other things are stuck that way to.
> 
> Nothing is SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM defines these so they must be in a parameter 
> database somewhere else. That is where I'm looking now ...
> 
> On a somewhat related note, I went out and forked over $100 for a true 5 
> port switch so that I can put my VLC cluster on a switch! Now all I need is 
> a console multiplexor.
> 
> --Chuck
> 
> At 08:35 PM 10/2/00 -0500, you wrote:
> 
> >The system$dia0 isn't especially newer or better.  It is the name of the
> >disk with the allocation class set to 0.  Check your drive firmware to
> >make sure that the alloclass on that disk didn't get changed to 24 wen you
> >changed the node name.
> >
> >There is also a MSCP_ALLOCLASS parameter in SYSGEN but that is less likely
> >to be the culprit.
> >
> >The allocation class is a mechanism to prevent like-named devices (i.e.
> >machines on a CI or DSSI each with a DxAxxx device) from confusing one
> >another.
> >
> >  On Mon, 2 Oct 2000, Chuck McManis wrote:
> >
> > > I know, I should ask info-vax. But I'm not subscribed there :-(
> > >
> > > I changed the nodename on my DSSI drive (looks like an HSC50 to the VAX)
> > > and it still boots VMS but SYS$SYSDEVICE is set to $24$DIA264 not the
> > > newer, more friendly SYSTEM$DIA0: I tried doing an autogen but that didn't
> > > seem to change anything :-).  Clues?
> > >
> > > --Chuck
> > >
> >
> 
> 



From THETechnoid at home.com  Tue Oct  3 00:29:14 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: 80's mico. Coco for Atari trade
In-Reply-To: <4.1.20001002224840.00cc27e0@206.231.8.2>
Message-ID: <20001003053252.EVOO18167.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

For a full-blown COCO system, I'll trade a 320k atari 130xe with a CSS
Black Box interface.  The black box has a SCSI interface(up to 6GB
useable), Printerface, serialface (fifo).  I will include a scsi drive
packed with software (appx 100mb), and a switching power supply to run the
lot.  Depending on the offer, I might include a 1050 disk drive and some
other hardware.  Pretty much I'd like to trade 'function for function'.

In exchange, I'd like a COCO 3, floppy interface, hard disk interface,
power pack, video cable, and software. Each pays shipping for his end.


Regards,


Jeff
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com  Tue Oct  3 01:14:22 2000
From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:43 2005
Subject: RL02 question
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1001002125053.3240A-100000@oldy.crwolff.com>
References: <v04210102b5f8e0a57f55@[157.178.130.128]>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001002231422.009c2bc0@pop.sttl.uswest.net>

At 12:53 02-10-2000 -0600, Clint wrote:

>I recently purchased a number of RL02 cartridges. Some are labeled:
>RL02K-DC and some RL02K-EF.
>
>What's the difference between them?

	Quality of media. The DC's were generics, and the EF's were certified to
be error-free (hence the 'EF' designation).


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies
http://www.bluefeathertech.com  // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com
Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 (Extra class as of June-2K)
"I'll get a life when someone demonstrates to me that it would be
superior to what I have now..." (Gym Z. Quirk, aka Taki Kogoma).

From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Tue Oct  3 03:11:20 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: Getting Grid to Go
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20001002210807.00d0aa40@208.226.86.10>
References: <200010030348.UAA21885@shell1.aracnet.com>
 <4.3.1.2.20001002201320.00e5abe0@208.226.86.10>
Message-ID: <l03102800b5ff441e95b2@[192.168.1.4]>

I've played with a couple of my 1755 Grid laptops this week, not much fun.
Noises from the hard drive, then a hard drive failure message followed by
Password: which won't go away. The other one I "think" is setup to use a
video port as NOTHING happens at all on the screen (no char, no change in
contrast).

I downloaded the 1755setup file, but I don't know how to get the system to
boot from a floppy (plus I need more on the floppy than just the 1755setup
right?).



From pete at dunnington.u-net.com  Tue Oct  3 02:39:49 2000
From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: Need help identifying the following IC/CHIP
In-Reply-To: "Ram Meenakshisundaram" <rmeenaks@olf.com>
        "Need help identifying the following IC/CHIP" (Oct  2, 20:38)
References: <001801c02cd2$34f54f20$d4ea0191@olf.com>
Message-ID: <10010030839.ZM19504@indy.dunnington.u-net.com>

On Oct 2, 20:38, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote:
>
> [ Attachment (multipart/alternative): 2760 bytes ]

[please don't post multipart :-)]

> I hope that the firmware is downloaded to the chip each time it is fired
=
> up, but I am not sure.  The chip is labelled as:
>
> TOSHIBA
> TC57H256D-70
> JAPAN 8906YAA
> VPP 12.5V
>
> Does anyone know what type of IC this is and where I can obtain one?

It's a standard 32768 x 8 CMOS EPROM, 70ns access time.  I have the data
sheet if you really need it.  Pinout is:

Vpp 1    28 Vdd
A12 2    27 A14
 A7 3    26 A13
 A6 4    25 A8
 A5 5    24 A9
 A4 6    23 A11
 A3 7    22 ~OE
 A2 8    21 A10
 A1 9    20 ~CE
 A0 10   19 D7
 D0 11   18 D6
 D1 12   17 D5
 D2 13   16 D4
GND 14   15 D3

Like many devices of its time, it has an electronic signature, though it's
unlikely your circuit checks that.  Anyway, the signature is obtained by
applying normal read voltage to all pins, except you apply 12V to A9.  Then
with A0 at logic 1, you get the manufacturer code 0x98 and with A0=0 you
get device code 0x45.

-- 

Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Dept. of Computer Science
						University of York

From pgj at ghrs.co.uk  Tue Oct  3 06:10:42 2000
From: pgj at ghrs.co.uk (Peter Joules)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: Zilog S8000 available in the UK
Message-ID: <0160284F4D93D411BD3900A0C9DB78ED9572@GREENHOUS_NT_01>

I had this machine offered to me, but it is too far for me to collect it if
anyone else in the UK wants it.  Please contact Mike directly.

BTW what, precisely, is it - does anyone on the list know of them.  In his
original message to me he said that it was big and that it had been used at
a local college to teach Unix to students.

-- 
Regards
Pete

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike W [mailto:mike@corn2.freeserve.co.uk] 
> Sent: 03 October 2000 10:57
> To: Peter Joules
> Subject: Re: You want old computer stuff?
> 
> 
> no probs abt the delay in replying Pete, feel free to pass on the 
> details to whoever you wish.
> 
> I now have it here, its a Zilog S8000/32 Model 130, Ser no. 
> 01871336, sold by Allied Business Systems of Portslade, Sussex.
> 
> It appears to be functional but as yet I hav'nt connected a terminal 
> to it so I can't be certain of this.
> 
> If you or any of your fellow devotees would like to have it 
> then I'd be 
> only too happy to store it until it can be collected.
> Catch you later.. Mike W, Redruth, Cornwall
> 
> 

From agraham at ccat.co.uk  Tue Oct  3 06:46:05 2000
From: agraham at ccat.co.uk (Adrian Graham)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: Zilog S8000 available in the UK
Message-ID: <00Oct3.124608bst.46093@gatekeeper.ccat.co.uk>

Dammit - that's too far for me too :o(

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Joules [mailto:pgj@ghrs.co.uk]
> Sent: 03 October 2000 12:43
> To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org'
> Subject: Zilog S8000 available in the UK
> 
> 
> I had this machine offered to me, but it is too far for me to 
> collect it if
> anyone else in the UK wants it.  Please contact Mike directly.
> 
> BTW what, precisely, is it - does anyone on the list know of 
> them.  In his
> original message to me he said that it was big and that it 
> had been used at
> a local college to teach Unix to students.
> 
> -- 
> Regards
> Pete
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mike W [mailto:mike@corn2.freeserve.co.uk] 
> > Sent: 03 October 2000 10:57
> > To: Peter Joules
> > Subject: Re: You want old computer stuff?
> > 
> > 
> > no probs abt the delay in replying Pete, feel free to pass on the 
> > details to whoever you wish.
> > 
> > I now have it here, its a Zilog S8000/32 Model 130, Ser no. 
> > 01871336, sold by Allied Business Systems of Portslade, Sussex.
> > 
> > It appears to be functional but as yet I hav'nt connected a 
> terminal 
> > to it so I can't be certain of this.
> > 
> > If you or any of your fellow devotees would like to have it 
> > then I'd be 
> > only too happy to store it until it can be collected.
> > Catch you later.. Mike W, Redruth, Cornwall
> > 
> > 
> 

From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us  Tue Oct  3 07:38:19 2000
From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: Need SCSI interface for Microvax 3400
In-Reply-To: <200010030050.RAA03547@shell1.aracnet.com>
References: <200010030050.RAA03547@shell1.aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <v04210104b5ff82e11780@[157.178.130.128]>

> >
> > I beg to differ...  try: 
><http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=452022321>
> >
> > Currently $10.
> >
> > Jim
> >
>
>OK, I missed that 3100 somehow :^)  Looks like that's exactly what the
>original poster needs.
>
>			Zane

Except it doesn't have a hard drive and questionable as to memory.

-Bob

Bob Brown
Saved by grace
Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown

From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Tue Oct  3 09:30:54 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: Zilog S8000 available in the UK
In-Reply-To: <0160284F4D93D411BD3900A0C9DB78ED9572@GREENHOUS_NT_01>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001003093054.3d97b526@mailhost.intellistar.net>

At 12:10 PM 10/3/00 +0100, Pete wrote:
>
>> I now have it here, its a Zilog S8000/32 Model 130, Ser no. 
>> 01871336, sold by Allied Business Systems of Portslade, Sussex.
>> 
>BTW what, precisely, is it - does anyone on the list know of them.  In his
>original message to me he said that it was big and that it had been used at
>a local college to teach Unix to students.
>
     You're in luck. I just happen to have a copy of the '82/'83 Zilog
catalog handy. It lists the S8000/31. I expect the 32 is similar. Here are
some of the specs for the 31; 6 MHz Z8001A CPU and Z8010A MMUs as well as 6
MHz Z80B CPUs. The Z8000 is a 16 bit CPU with 16 general purpose registers
and an 8 M byte address space and can perform 8, 16 and 32 bit operations.
The operating system is Zeus, a Zilog enhanced UNIX. It includes a screen
oriented editor, a symbolic debugger and more than 180 other utilities.
Other features include a HFS, compatible file, device, and interprocess
I/O, Separate code and data address space, multiple processes per user,
user program address space of up to 8 Mb (C, Fortran 77, assembler. Zilog
offered BASIC, Cobal, C, Fortran 77, Pascal and PLZ/Sys for it. The machine
has up to 4 Mb of ECC memory (1 Mb minimum) and can support up to 24 users.
Optional 9 track 1/2" magnetic tape drive. I *think* it does include a tape
cassette drive as standard. It should have a 3600 RPM 32 Mb hard drive with
45 ms access time. The standard unit is 33" high and measures 19" wide  by
24" deep and weighs ~ 250 pounds. Based on the picture, it appears to be
made up of four modules stacked on top of each other and has castors
underneath. The unit is white with a vertical black strip about 6" wide on
the left side of the front. There are expansion units that can be stacked
on top of the main unit. Th unit can run off of single phase 100, 117, 220
or 240 VAC. Maximum current at 220/240 volts is 4 Amps.

    Joe









>


From transit at lerctr.org  Tue Oct  3 10:36:22 2000
From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: Did somebody on here mention the "Colossus"?
In-Reply-To: <00Oct2.102413bst.46093@gatekeeper.ccat.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.SV4.3.96.001003103557.22363A-100000@lerami.lerctr.org>


http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,39198,00.html


From foo at siconic.com  Tue Oct  3 10:01:48 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: Zilog S8000 available in the UK
In-Reply-To: <0160284F4D93D411BD3900A0C9DB78ED9572@GREENHOUS_NT_01>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010030758410.20550-100000@siconic.com>

On Tue, 3 Oct 2000, Peter Joules wrote:

> BTW what, precisely, is it - does anyone on the list know of them.  
> In his original message to me he said that it was big and that it had
> been used at a local college to teach Unix to students.

I have one in my collection.  It's about 3.5 feet tall.  It's based on the
Z8000 microprocessor, and is intended to be a multi-user mini.

Nice system, worth rescuing.  Not too common.

Sellam                                International Man of Intrigue and Danger
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...

                       VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
               San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
                    See http://www.vintage.org for details!



From foo at siconic.com  Tue Oct  3 10:06:24 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: Zilog S8000 available in the UK
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001003093054.3d97b526@mailhost.intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010030805350.20550-100000@siconic.com>

On Tue, 3 Oct 2000, Joe wrote:

> 45 ms access time. The standard unit is 33" high and measures 19" wide  by
> 24" deep and weighs ~ 250 pounds. Based on the picture, it appears to be
> made up of four modules stacked on top of each other and has castors
> underneath. The unit is white with a vertical black strip about 6" wide on

Check this out:

http://www.siconic.com/crap/Zilog_System_8000_Brochure.jpg

It's the front page of the brochure showing the complete unit.

Sellam                                International Man of Intrigue and Danger
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...

                       VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
               San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
                    See http://www.vintage.org for details!



From elvey at hal.com  Tue Oct  3 12:20:12 2000
From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: Zilog S8000 available in the UK
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010030805350.20550-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <200010031720.KAA11754@civic.hal.com>

Sellam Ismail <foo@siconic.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 3 Oct 2000, Joe wrote:
> 
> > 45 ms access time. The standard unit is 33" high and measures 19" wide  by
> > 24" deep and weighs ~ 250 pounds. Based on the picture, it appears to be
> > made up of four modules stacked on top of each other and has castors
> > underneath. The unit is white with a vertical black strip about 6" wide on
> 
> Check this out:
> 
> http://www.siconic.com/crap/Zilog_System_8000_Brochure.jpg


Hi
 I like those futuristic looking terminals in the background.
Dwight


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Tue Oct  3 12:55:53 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: Need SCSI interface for Microvax 3400
In-Reply-To: <v04210104b5ff82e11780@[157.178.130.128]>
References: <200010030050.RAA03547@shell1.aracnet.com>
 <200010030050.RAA03547@shell1.aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <v04020a15b5ffcc724c50@[192.168.1.5]>

>>OK, I missed that 3100 somehow :^)  Looks like that's exactly what the
>>original poster needs.
>>
>>			Zane
>
>Except it doesn't have a hard drive and questionable as to memory.
>
>-Bob


FYI, I've had good luck with Apple SCSI HD's in DEC gear.  However, having
said that I'm now totally on DEC Hard Drives on all my VMS machines except
one.  The big thing is the boot drive will probably need to be under just
over 1GB (don't remember the exact number, as I'm only using a RZ25 in my
3100).

Memory on the other hand is a big issue.  Do careful research on any VMS
system you buy concerning the memory.  Some VAXen or Alpha's you can
'affordably' add more RAM to.  Others you're better off buying a second
system for the RAM!  I've got an AlphaStation 500/333 that I can't run
DECwindows on with decent performance because the RAM costs to much.  For a
couple hundred more than it would have cost to go to 192MB (the next
logical step from 96MB) I was able to get a PWS433au with 320MB.

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|                 http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/              |

From eric at brouhaha.com  Tue Oct  3 13:02:30 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: Need help identifying the following IC/CHIP
In-Reply-To: <39D93D8D.AD1CBEDA@funcow.com> (claudew@funcow.com)
References: <001801c02cd2$34f54f20$d4ea0191@olf.com> <39D93D8D.AD1CBEDA@funcow.com>
Message-ID: <20001003180230.19572.qmail@brouhaha.com>

"Claude" <claudew@funcow.com> wrote:
> Looks like an EPROM. I imagine there was a glass window on top of the
> chip...

Hopefully a *quartz* window.  Otherwise it will be difficult to erase.

From healyzh at aracnet.com  Tue Oct  3 13:13:13 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: Changing logicals on VMS?
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20001002210807.00d0aa40@208.226.86.10>
References: <200010030348.UAA21885@shell1.aracnet.com>
 <4.3.1.2.20001002201320.00e5abe0@208.226.86.10>
Message-ID: <v04020a18b5ffd0f35b19@[192.168.1.5]>

>You bet, this "traffic" on the NI backbone doesn't interfere with each
>other. So if one system is swapping on a cluster disk and another is just
>doing telnet type access then they both "see" a full 10MBits of bandwidth.
>The only time you get collisions is when two systems try to access the same
>third party and the switch can often interleave those packets such that
>there are way fewer collisions.

Hmmm, you've got me thinking I need to redo what's going into the 10/100
8-Port Switch, and what goes into the 10/100 8-Port Hub.

>> > Now all I need is a console multiplexor.
>>
>>Any idea's?  This is something I *REALLY* need.
>
>Well its "easy" to do in a powered box. A few of the CMOS switches, a few
>connectors, and you're done. I even figured I could switch it remotely by
>using the DTR line coming up to "toggle" the next system. Thus running
>something like HyperTerm and doing disconnect/reconnect type operations
>would cycle through each console. My issue is that I'm trying to do it all
>passively and that leads to some questions about tying lines together
>before you break contact. (and mechanical switches are so much harder to
>control). My "worst" idea is to use a "wall wart" type supply to bring
>power to the switch box, second worst is to run a couple of lines off the
>supply in the top VLC. I suspect its too much current to uses the "phantom
>power" trick on the RS232 port.

OK, I was thinking an easy off the shelf solution :^)

>(Of course if I want to be anal I can run all the consoles into the
>harmonica box off a CXYA16 in the 4000/200 and use that machine as a
>console server)

Actually this is more or less the solution I was thinking of if I couldn't
find an off the shelf solution.  Is there any console server software for
VMS?  We'd been using Sparc 2's with ton's of serial ports at work, but now
are switching to PC's running Linux with ton's of ports.  The downside of
this is the best system I can come up with for this at the moment would be
my MicroVAX 3, and I don't want to put that in my apartment running full
time!  Guess I need a MV3100 with a bunch of ports.

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|                 http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/              |

From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com  Tue Oct  3 13:19:52 2000
From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: Need help identifying the following IC/CHIP
In-Reply-To: <20001003180230.19572.qmail@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <000001c02d66$87059ce0$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>


>> Looks like an EPROM. I imagine there was a glass...

>Hopefully a *quartz* window.  Otherwise it will be
> difficult to erase.


Hey I'm just an initiate on these things.  Most modern
EPROMs seem to have poured (once liquid) windows, older
ones have the sliced crystalline slab windows.  You mean
to say thet the solidified windows are quartz also?
I thought the M.P. of Quartz was astronomically high.

John A.

From elvey at hal.com  Tue Oct  3 13:29:15 2000
From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: Need help identifying the following IC/CHIP
In-Reply-To: <000001c02d66$87059ce0$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>
Message-ID: <200010031829.LAA11807@civic.hal.com>

"John Allain" <John.Allain@donnelley.infousa.com> wrote:
> 
> >> Looks like an EPROM. I imagine there was a glass...
> 
> >Hopefully a *quartz* window.  Otherwise it will be
> > difficult to erase.
> 
> 
> Hey I'm just an initiate on these things.  Most modern
> EPROMs seem to have poured (once liquid) windows, older
> ones have the sliced crystalline slab windows.  You mean
> to say thet the solidified windows are quartz also?

yes

> I thought the M.P. of Quartz was astronomically high.

also yes

Dwight


From harrison at timharrison.com  Tue Oct  3 13:32:11 2000
From: harrison at timharrison.com (Tim Harrison)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: Need help identifying the following IC/CHIP
References: <001801c02cd2$34f54f20$d4ea0191@olf.com> <39D93D8D.AD1CBEDA@funcow.com> <20001003180230.19572.qmail@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <39DA262B.AA1568A7@timharrison.com>

Eric Smith wrote:

> Hopefully a *quartz* window.  Otherwise it will be difficult to erase.

Well, you could leave it on Mir for a few hours, and let the fungi get
to it.  That should take care of erasing problems. :)

http://www.globe.com/dailyglobe2/275/nation/Astronauts_vs_fungus+.shtml

And I thought getting dust in my Indigo was a pain in the...

-- 


Tim Harrison
Network Engineer
harrison@timharrison.com
http://www.networklevel.com/

From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Oct  3 13:33:46 2000
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: Zilog S8000 available in the UK
In-Reply-To: Re: Zilog S8000 available in the UK (Joe)
References: <0160284F4D93D411BD3900A0C9DB78ED9572@GREENHOUS_NT_01>
	<3.0.1.16.20001003093054.3d97b526@mailhost.intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <14810.9866.284806.883690@phaduka.neurotica.com>


  I used to have the rackmount version of this system (I don't recall
the /xx number, 41 maybe?)...it was quite a machine.  Next to my other
main machines of the day (MicroVAX-II and a few 386 systems, this was
like 1989) it was a VERY fast box.  Lack of networking was what killed
it for me.  But aside from that, it was a pleasure to use.

          -Dave McGuire

On October 3, Joe wrote:
> At 12:10 PM 10/3/00 +0100, Pete wrote:
> >
> >> I now have it here, its a Zilog S8000/32 Model 130, Ser no. 
> >> 01871336, sold by Allied Business Systems of Portslade, Sussex.
> >> 
> >BTW what, precisely, is it - does anyone on the list know of them.  In his
> >original message to me he said that it was big and that it had been used at
> >a local college to teach Unix to students.
> >
>      You're in luck. I just happen to have a copy of the '82/'83 Zilog
> catalog handy. It lists the S8000/31. I expect the 32 is similar. Here are
> some of the specs for the 31; 6 MHz Z8001A CPU and Z8010A MMUs as well as 6
> MHz Z80B CPUs. The Z8000 is a 16 bit CPU with 16 general purpose registers
> and an 8 M byte address space and can perform 8, 16 and 32 bit operations.
> The operating system is Zeus, a Zilog enhanced UNIX. It includes a screen
> oriented editor, a symbolic debugger and more than 180 other utilities.
> Other features include a HFS, compatible file, device, and interprocess
> I/O, Separate code and data address space, multiple processes per user,
> user program address space of up to 8 Mb (C, Fortran 77, assembler. Zilog
> offered BASIC, Cobal, C, Fortran 77, Pascal and PLZ/Sys for it. The machine
> has up to 4 Mb of ECC memory (1 Mb minimum) and can support up to 24 users.
> Optional 9 track 1/2" magnetic tape drive. I *think* it does include a tape
> cassette drive as standard. It should have a 3600 RPM 32 Mb hard drive with
> 45 ms access time. The standard unit is 33" high and measures 19" wide  by
> 24" deep and weighs ~ 250 pounds. Based on the picture, it appears to be
> made up of four modules stacked on top of each other and has castors
> underneath. The unit is white with a vertical black strip about 6" wide on
> the left side of the front. There are expansion units that can be stacked
> on top of the main unit. Th unit can run off of single phase 100, 117, 220
> or 240 VAC. Maximum current at 220/240 volts is 4 Amps.
> 
>     Joe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Oct  3 12:24:20 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: Got my PDP-11/34! Now what?
In-Reply-To: <20001003003619.8529.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Oct 3, 0 00:36:19 am
Message-ID: <m13gVnj-000IyHC@p850ug1>

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Oct  3 12:27:40 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: Need help identifying the following IC/CHIP
In-Reply-To: <001801c02cd2$34f54f20$d4ea0191@olf.com> from "Ram Meenakshisundaram" at Oct 2, 0 08:38:09 pm
Message-ID: <m13gVqx-000IyJC@p850ug1>

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Oct  3 12:32:11 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: RL02 question
In-Reply-To: <00b801c02cdf$2818ffb0$5f0a9a8d@ajp166> from "ajp166" at Oct 2, 0 10:09:06 pm
Message-ID: <m13gVvK-000IyNC@p850ug1>

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Oct  3 13:13:01 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: Zilog S8000 available in the UK
In-Reply-To: <0160284F4D93D411BD3900A0C9DB78ED9572@GREENHOUS_NT_01> from "Peter Joules" at Oct 3, 0 12:10:42 pm
Message-ID: <m13gWYs-000IyVC@p850ug1>

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From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org  Tue Oct  3 14:08:24 2000
From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: Zilog S8000 available in the UK
In-Reply-To: <14810.9866.284806.883690@phaduka.neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire
 at "Oct 3, 2000 02:33:46 pm"
Message-ID: <200010031908.e93J8OW06642@bg-tc-ppp702.monmouth.com>

> 
>   I used to have the rackmount version of this system (I don't recall
> the /xx number, 41 maybe?)...it was quite a machine.  Next to my other
> main machines of the day (MicroVAX-II and a few 386 systems, this was
> like 1989) it was a VERY fast box.  Lack of networking was what killed
> it for me.  But aside from that, it was a pleasure to use.
> 
>           -Dave McGuire
> 
I did DEC Field Service in NJ at the Exxon Office Systems (nee Zilog}
development site in Princeton.  The Zeus boxes were kind of Slick.
The Internal Revenue Service used them and a large UUCP network
for their office automation stuff.

They (IRS) started going to Pyramis MIServers in around 92... and used some
Pyramids before that...

Exxon Office Systems was created from (Zilog+Qux? or QUIP or something 
like that) l did their development for some of the stuff
on Vax 11/780's in NJ and California.  I installed one of the earliest
RM80's on an 11/780 (my first Vax install)... (about March or April 1981).

The company had a line of Unix boxes, word processors, fax stuff etc.

The Zeus stuff was modified SysIII with some BSD stuff added.
I believe they eventually got ethernet support.

Zilog was split between the California BSD lovers and the folks that
believed "System V consider it standard." 

They phased out their Ultrix and BSD stuff for SVR2 shortly before
they got their plug pulled.

--Bill
-- 
bpechter@monmouth.com      |     Microsoft: Where do you want to go today?
                           |     Linux:     Where do you want to go tomorrow?
                           |     BSD:       Are you guys coming, or what?

From rmeenaks at olf.com  Tue Oct  3 13:30:09 2000
From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: Need help identifying the following IC/CHIP
References: <001801c02cd2$34f54f20$d4ea0191@olf.com>
Message-ID: <39DA25B1.5090904@olf.com>

Hi,

Thanks for all the responses.  I figured it was some type of 
EPROM/EEPROM.  There is a clear window on the chip itself.  I dont know 
why someone would want to pry open the IC itself.  Maybe it was faulty 
to begin with and they wanted to try to fix it?? As for getting a 
replacement, this is probably going to be impossible.  I specifically 
dont know anyone else who would have one for me to dump and reload into 
a new IC.  This bites with a capital B!  Its such a nice board too....


Ram


From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Tue Oct  3 15:16:48 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: OT:  Life found in Space!  was Re: Need help identifying the
  following IC/CHIP
In-Reply-To: <39DA262B.AA1568A7@timharrison.com>
References: <001801c02cd2$34f54f20$d4ea0191@olf.com>
 <39D93D8D.AD1CBEDA@funcow.com>
 <20001003180230.19572.qmail@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001003151648.36cf16a6@mailhost.intellistar.net>

At 02:32 PM 10/3/00 -0400, you wrote:
>Eric Smith wrote:
>
>> Hopefully a *quartz* window.  Otherwise it will be difficult to erase.
>
>Well, you could leave it on Mir for a few hours, and let the fungi get
>to it.  That should take care of erasing problems. :)
>
>http://www.globe.com/dailyglobe2/275/nation/Astronauts_vs_fungus+.shtml

    This is a hoot!  You have to read it!

    Joe


From eric at brouhaha.com  Tue Oct  3 14:15:51 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: Need help identifying the following IC/CHIP
In-Reply-To: <000001c02d66$87059ce0$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>
	(John.Allain@donnelley.infousa.com)
References: <000001c02d66$87059ce0$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>
Message-ID: <20001003191551.20566.qmail@brouhaha.com>

I wrote:
> Hopefully a *quartz* window.  Otherwise it will be
> difficult to erase.

John A. wrote:
> Hey I'm just an initiate on these things.  Most modern
> EPROMs seem to have poured (once liquid) windows, older
> ones have the sliced crystalline slab windows.  You mean
> to say thet the solidified windows are quartz also?
> I thought the M.P. of Quartz was astronomically high.

I'm not sure.  But glass is fairly opaque to shortwave UV,
so a glass window won't work too well.

I have some OKI plastic-packaged EPROMs that have a
plastic window.  The window is translucent to visible
light, but apparently reasonably opaque to shortwave UV.
OKI didn't make them for very long; I guess they weren't
a big hit.  I've heard that the window becomes less
transparent to UV as exposure increases.

From healyzh at aracnet.com  Tue Oct  3 15:14:04 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
Message-ID: <200010032014.NAA28349@shell1.aracnet.com>

I was trying to find the order number for the OpenVMS V7.2-1/Alpha update,
and came across the following little tidbit.  With all the VMS traffic here
the last few days I thought a few people might enjoy this.  I'm sure a lot
of you have seen this before.

BTW, does anyone have the order number for the OpenVMS V7.2-1/Alpha update? 
I still can't find it.


			Zane


You know you're a VMS bigot when:

You think case sensitivity is some ones idea of an April Fools joke

You keep trying to use the EDT keypad in Word.

You know why the SHOW SYSTEM display had to have the "system uptime"
field increased beyond 999 days.

You have the complete VMS docset on display in your living room.

Your mail file doesn't grow to the size of the national debt.

You expect upper AND lower case to work the same way

You wish your car was as reliable as your computer

You keep wanting Digital to produce "Visual DCL"

You don't think about the Milky Way when you hear the word "Galaxy"

You travel to Nashua twice a year, to get the newest fashion in
T-shirts and jackets

You know where NT stores its data if they really need it to be saved

You know what Wes Melling was talking about, saying: "When you
absolutely can't tolerate down-time"

If you think that the word "legacy" refers to the next generation of
Lego toys that your kids want.

You remember the VAXworks group

PATCH is your favorite text editor

You can cite chapter and verse in the docset

You know what the bars on the wall in front of ZKO spell

The first thing you think of when you see a dollar sign isn't money

You refer to Unix as the only commercially available computer virus

When you know that the console sequence to force quorum recalculation
without crashing the cluster.

When your Exchange mail is set to auto-forward to STAR

When you know the boot file sequences to make an efficient TU58
console  boot tape.

You insist on typing SET DEF [-] at your PC's DOS prompt

Your LOGIN.COM exceeds 200 block and is on its thousand-something
version

Your LOGIN.COM file contains its own debugging language

Your LOGIN.COM is written in Macro

When you need to discipline the kids at home, you refer to it as
CMKRNL time

You think that "grep, awk, yacc" sounds like a death rattle

When you hear ICBM's you don't think of nuclear warfare

You know what happened November 17, 1858

You wonder why folks spend extra for a BACKUP tool

You feel like you're using a crayon when you're working on a PC

You still have a VAX architecture manual

You can retrieve a file from another system with a one-line command
instead  of running a program, logging into the remote systems, and
getting the file.

None of your hardware uses PCI

You tend to type a dollar sign in front of most verbs

You think EXCHANGE is an OpenVMS utility for manipulating mass storage
volumes

You don't understand why e-mail needs to be in a format that uses half
a megabyte of disk space for a one-page document.

You maintain OpenVMS accounts on your workstation for coworkers who
have migrated to PCs

You think a form with one page of information should fit on your
screen without scrolling

You know what INSQTI means

You know that fork queue is not an insult

When you type $show dev d at the c:\> prompt and expect it to work

You need a mouse with three buttons and the middle button is useful

You turn 40 and tell friends that your are 28 hex

A normal date is written as dd-mmm-yyyy

You never saw the euphemism in "VAX Headroom"

You expect all machine instruction to work left to right

You can solve any problem with a TECO macro
Your favorite "portable" language is TECO

You see the movie Spawn and keep thinking about sub-processes

You think Carl Sagen was wrong about "Galaxies"

The only question about restoring a backup is finding it

You believe a computer might handle more than one user at a time

You feel Robert Frost was talking about quotas when he said: "Good
fences make good neighbors"

You presume that calling between languages "just works"

You do not expect the previous version of your file to be destroyed by
the new one

You still measure performance in VUPS

You understand that 'open' is a silent prefix

You know there is more to bliss than ignorance

You know RMS does not mean 'root mean square'

The concept of a blue screen of death is foreign to you

You think that a command line interface is better than a GUI

You're surprised to find out that "cluster" is a new concept

You have forgotten how to reboot because your system's been up so long


You reboot your desktop station once every 15 months (and only because
a  tornado caused a city-wide power blackout)

You don't have to reboot your workstation daily

You know you can find out how to use a command by typing help and get
it

You use your VMS system to backup important files from your PC

You don't need the UNIX for Dummies and Windows for Dummies to perform
simple functions

You want nothing to do with eunuchs

You choke on your coffee when someone tells you Microsoft does
clusters

You Laugh when someone tells you they are certified for PC systems
programming.

You use SDA as your CLI

Your debuger is Delta or xdelta

You have no difficulties with using Debug in six windows on a VT100

You know for sure that you will never meet a TPU macro virus

You really can't think of anything Bill Gates actually invented

The most useful app on your PC is Telnet.
the second most useful app on you PC is the CD player

You never thought I was that bright to begin with.

You know why the VMS development machine is named STAR

You are still seeking "Compose Character" key on your PC keyword

You answer 52.444 when someone asks your address

You can talk about clusters with over 10 nodes

You have to drive your car to ready the other Cluster nodes

You have used patch/abs to patch an Alpha image and it worked

The Pacific Northwest is still best known for its trees.

You know what PMDF stands for

You don't exit your editor when you leave for a two week vacation

You actually expect your mail to work

You don't follow up an email with a phone call and a fax

You think that Microsoft is a new type of softserve ice cream

You see no reason at all for a _minimum_ password lifetime.

You know that the kernel is part of the operating system not Mr.
Sanders first name

You can use threads for more than sewing

You can convert your phone number to hex

You can use SDML

You know what SDML stands for






From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com  Tue Oct  3 16:26:11 2000
From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
In-Reply-To: <200010032014.NAA28349@shell1.aracnet.com>; from healyzh@aracnet.com on Tue, Oct 03, 2000 at 01:14:04PM -0700
References: <200010032014.NAA28349@shell1.aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <20001003142611.Z22461@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com>

On Tue, Oct 03, 2000 at 01:14:04PM -0700, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote:
> You know why the SHOW SYSTEM display had to have the "system uptime"
> field increased beyond 999 days.

And did the system had to be rebooted in order to apply this fix?  :-)

> You know where NT stores its data if they really need it to be saved

What does this one mean?

> You do not expect the previous version of your file to be destroyed by
> the new one

Yeah when I first heard of journaling filesystem development for Linux,
I thought that was the whole point... but I guess not.
> 
> You know RMS does not mean 'root mean square'

No, it's Stallman's initials, silly.  (but I got an EE degree too,
so actually it could mean either one)

> The concept of a blue screen of death is foreign to you

Hmmm, that's one of the screen hacks in xscreensaver isn't it?

> You don't exit your editor when you leave for a two week vacation

I thought that was the sign of an emacs bigot?

-- 
  _______                   Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD  ecloud@bigfoot.com
 (_  | |_)          http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud  kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org
 __) | | \________________________________________________________________
Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903

From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com  Tue Oct  3 16:55:53 2000
From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
Message-ID: <F62kidcDjoYAPNXRPmc0000b496@hotmail.com>

Hmm..

"You have the complete VMS docset on display in your living room."
Only one docs set? I have 2 complete ones and several incomplete ones...

"You keep wanting Digital to produce "Visual DCL""
Eh? I'd imagine that would look really weird on my LA120...

"You still have a VAX architecture manual"
Which one would you like? 80-81, 82, 86, or the big expanded 8.5" x 11" one? 
And which rev of the instruction set reference do you prefer?

"You need a mouse with three buttons and the middle button is useful"
Mouse? Whazzat?

"You believe a computer might handle more than one user at a time"
Maybe, but they have to bring their own chair and their own terminal

"The concept of a blue screen of death is foreign to you"
Well, in theory, I suppose I could make a text page entirely composed of the 
word "death" and somehow get a blue ribbon made for the LA120.. but where 
does the screen part come in?

"You think that a command line interface is better than a GUI"
A GUI? Was someone drinking pop around the computer again?

"You reboot your desktop station once every 15 months (and only because
a  tornado caused a city-wide power blackout)"
Hah, my station is being used *AS* a desktop

"You know you can find out how to use a command by typing help and get
it" I think I'll just look it up in the doc set, that'd be a lot of printing

_________________________________________________________________________
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From dankolb at ox.compsoc.net  Tue Oct  3 17:26:38 2000
From: dankolb at ox.compsoc.net (Dan Kolb)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
In-Reply-To: <20001003142611.Z22461@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com>
References: <200010032014.NAA28349@shell1.aracnet.com> <20001003142611.Z22461@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com>
Message-ID: <00100323263800.13194@kronos>

On Tue, 03 Oct 2000, Shawn T. Rutledge wrote:
> > The concept of a blue screen of death is foreign to you
>
> Hmmm, that's one of the screen hacks in xscreensaver isn't it?

That's the *Black* screen of Death :) You can even play 'work out the OS to 
which the crash belongs' if you're bored :-)

Off-topic for this thread, but, for those of you in the UK, PCW magazine has 
a look at the Sharp MZ-80K on the back page.

Dan
-- 
dankolb@ox.compsoc.net  Oxford University Computer Society Secretary
 
--I reserve the right to be completely wrong about any comments or
  opinions expressed; don't trust everything you read above--  

From dankolb at ox.compsoc.net  Tue Oct  3 17:50:22 2000
From: dankolb at ox.compsoc.net (Dan Kolb)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
In-Reply-To: <200010032014.NAA28349@shell1.aracnet.com>
References: <200010032014.NAA28349@shell1.aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <00100323502201.13194@kronos>

On Tue, 03 Oct 2000, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote:

> You know you're a VMS bigot when:
>
> You think case sensitivity is some ones idea of an April Fools joke

Ah, but case sensitivity makes it more difficult for newbies to get the hang 
of the OS. Which may or may not be a good thing.

> You keep trying to use the EDT keypad in Word.

Oh, please. Word? Surely it should be vi, emacs or Wordstar. :)

> You don't understand why e-mail needs to be in a format that uses half
> a megabyte of disk space for a one-page document.

Hmm...one page...that would be, say, 80x25 for a screen, or about 80x65 for 
an A4 page. So that's max. 5k. Why *does* it need half a meg. anyway? Word 
attachment?

> You maintain OpenVMS accounts on your workstation for coworkers who
> have migrated to PCs

I'll have to admit to that one where I was working over the summer. No-one 
else used it, though :-(

> You think that a command line interface is better than a GUI

It is, though, isn't it? The only advantage I can (OTTOMH) think of is that a 
web browser in a GUI displays pictures :-)

> You know you can find out how to use a command by typing help and get
> it

"apropos <keyword>"?

> You really can't think of anything Bill Gates actually invented

Did he invent anything?

Back to lurking now :-)

Dan
-- 
dankolb@ox.compsoc.net  Oxford University Computer Society Secretary
 
--I reserve the right to be completely wrong about any comments or
  opinions expressed; don't trust everything you read above--  

From mac at Wireless.Com  Tue Oct  3 18:00:03 2000
From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
In-Reply-To: <F62kidcDjoYAPNXRPmc0000b496@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.4.21.0010031557100.10887-100000@NameServer.Culver.Net>

Ahhh, what's this "VMS" thing y'all are wasting bandwidth on?  I've heard
of a little-used and quite obsolete program that ran on some dec hardware
called "V-Mess" - is this the same thing?

Thanks, -Mike

;-)

On Tue, 3 Oct 2000, Will Jennings wrote:

> Hmm..

> "You have the complete VMS docset on display in your living room."
> Only one docs set? I have 2 complete ones and several incomplete ones...



From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Tue Oct  3 18:05:52 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: Changing logicals on VMS? 
Message-ID: <002c01c02d8e$cd3e9310$360a9a8d@ajp166>

From: Chuck McManis <cmcmanis@mcmanis.com>
To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Date: Monday, October 02, 2000 11:39 PM
Subject: Re: Changing logicals on VMS?


>I got in this mess as follows:
>
>I installed an RF72 drive into my 4000/200 and proceeded to do a 'sho
dev'
>on it. It showed up on the DSSI bus as $24$DIA264:
>
>I then installed VMS 7.2 on to this drive, followed by a bunch of
layered
>products.
>
>Then I read in the KA660 technical manual how to "talk" to the DSSI
drives,
>(which is very arcane using the KFQSA but a snap on the KA640 and KA660)
>and proceeded to tell the drive to call itself node SYSTEM and unit 0.
>
>This worked fine, and I noted that I could now boot the system by
>specifying DIA0: rather than DIA264: (which I never could remember
anyway).
>
>Then I went to install another layered product. That installation failed
>because it couldn't find a file is was expecting in
>SYS$SYSDEVICE:[SY0.SYSTEMP] (or something very similar). So I did a dir
>SYS$SYSDEVICE: and sure enough there was nothing there, then I did a
SHOW
>LOGICALS and from there discovered that SYS$SYSDEVICE: was defined to be
>$24$DIA264: (the original name of the DSSI drive)


Ok, try set(or is it define) sys$sysdevice:[sys0.systemp] == $24$dia264

I may have this off some but it's only a simple necessity in systartup_*
to define the
system logicals for the devices you wish to be default.

>Now I could name it back again. But I'd rather tell VMS where the
SYSDEVICE
>now sits (for all the system, like on a permanent basis). If I 'define'
it,
>it changes for the current process but doesn't change universally and
more
>importantly other things are stuck that way to.
>
>Nothing is SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM defines these so they must be in a
parameter
>database somewhere else. That is where I'm looking now ...
>
check help define logicals.

Allison


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Oct  3 17:59:02 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
In-Reply-To: <F62kidcDjoYAPNXRPmc0000b496@hotmail.com> from "Will Jennings" at Oct 3, 0 03:55:53 pm
Message-ID: <m13gb1e-000IyHC@p850ug1>

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Oct  3 18:02:41 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
In-Reply-To: <00100323502201.13194@kronos> from "Dan Kolb" at Oct 3, 0 11:50:22 pm
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From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Tue Oct  3 18:26:11 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
Message-ID: <007501c02d91$9ab95940$360a9a8d@ajp166>

Ah, part of the joke is the people that would be most mystified by
VMS is the Winders crowd.  Most of them have forgotten what
C:> means or never have seen it.

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Kolb <dankolb@ox.compsoc.net>


>> You keep trying to use the EDT keypad in Word.
>
>Oh, please. Word? Surely it should be vi, emacs or Wordstar. :)


See win9x... They meant Word as anyone ued to other real word processors
would be clued and maybe even like LSE or TPU.


>Hmm...one page...that would be, say, 80x25 for a screen, or about 80x65
for
>an A4 page. So that's max. 5k. Why *does* it need half a meg. anyway?
Word
>attachment?


HTML, RTF MIME,  anything but plain ascii.

>> You think that a command line interface is better than a GUI
>
>It is, though, isn't it? The only advantage I can (OTTOMH) think of is
that a
>web browser in a GUI displays pictures :-)


So can ghostscript from a command line.

>"apropos <keyword>"?


VMS  Help {type, dir, del, set, show, ... or maybe even ?}

>> You really can't think of anything Bill Gates actually invented
>
>Did he invent anything?


Still cant, never did, likely cant.

Allison


From rdd at smart.net  Tue Oct  3 18:39:09 2000
From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.4.21.0010031557100.10887-100000@NameServer.Culver.Net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010031928340.30949-100000@smarty.smart.net>

On Tue, 3 Oct 2000, Mike Cheponis wrote:
> Ahhh, what's this "VMS" thing y'all are wasting bandwidth on?  I've heard
> of a little-used and quite obsolete program that ran on some dec hardware
> called "V-Mess" - is this the same thing?

Appears so.  Methinks they're discussing that fun thing to play with,
that runs on VAXen, which has more neat features than UNIX yet never
managed to become as useful as UNIX, but is much better than anything
that Microsoft ever even thought of. ;-)

Is not what the world needs a good VMS/UNIX hybrid OS?  All the
benefits of UNIX and VMS would surely drive Microsoft into the
ground... that is, it it weren't for those pesky average consumers
with lots of purchasing power who know mostly nothing about computers
and operating systems who get conned into wanting to purchase Peecees
running Windoze.

--
Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of
All Rights Reserved            Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to
rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd   a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD 





From rdd at smart.net  Tue Oct  3 19:05:27 2000
From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
In-Reply-To: <m13gb5B-000IyHC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010032001240.30949-100000@smarty.smart.net>

On Wed, 4 Oct 2000, Tony Duell wrote:
> phonecall...). It was produced by some Mickeysoft thing. Since I received 
> it on a unix box there was no way I could see it as the sended intended 
> (I assume) so I attacked it with the standard tools (strings, od, etc). 

When I receive a mickeysoft-word document attached to e-mail, if I
happen to feel like reading it instead of just deleting it, I save it
to a text file and then do a search for words like "the" in order to 
find out where the text is hidden.

> It turned out to contain _1 line_ of useful text and a reasonably short 
> .sig . The rest of it was (I assume) font definitions, formatting, etc.

Such a waste.

> That was the worst ratio of 'signal' to 'noise' that I've ever seen...

Yes, worse than Usenet after the invasion of the AOLers years ago.

--
Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of
All Rights Reserved            Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to
rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd   a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD 





From vaxman at uswest.net  Tue Oct  3 19:00:57 2000
From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: RL02 question
In-Reply-To: <00b801c02cdf$2818ffb0$5f0a9a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1001003175929.11978A-100000@oldy.crwolff.com>


Ahhh, I see... If the cartridge is subjected to excessive shock, the 
disk pops loose from the magnetic holder in the bottom, and rattles
around. I wish I remember which ones made 'clunking' sounds as I 
unboxed them.

Thanks for all the answers!

clint


On Mon, 2 Oct 2000, ajp166 wrote:

> From: Clint Wolff (VAX collector) <vaxman@uswest.net>
> >I haven't looked at these very close yet, but aren't the heads in the
> >drive, not the disk pack?
> >
> >The only damage I can imagine is the bearings and/or races got munged
> >up...
> >
> >clint
> 
> 
> The packs consist of a hub assembly (no bearings) that matches up
> with the magnetic clutch on the spindle of the drive.  The platter being
> nearly 14" is susceptable to warping from high shocks.
> 
> I'd consider popping it out of the plastic pack and mounting it on a try
> spindle and giving it a spin in free air to see if the the platter is
> warped.
> 
> If the heads make contact it could be catastrophic and a PITA to
> mount and align a new set.
> 
> Allison
> 
> >
> >
> >On Mon, 2 Oct 2000, Daniel T. Burrows wrote:
> >
> >> >I recently purchased a number of RL02 cartridges. Some are labeled:
> >> >RL02K-DC and some RL02K-EF.
> >> >
> >> >What's the difference between them?
> >>
> >> The -EF were error free.
> >>
> >> >
> >> >One had one side of the shock indicator set, a second had both set.
> >> >
> >> >Would it be a really bad idea to use either of these, or just a bad
> >> >idea?
> >>
> >> Depends of how brave you are.:)
> >> Clean the heads first anyway.
> >> Inspect them closely for any dings.  Especially on the edges of the
> >> platters.  Then be ready to spin the drive down if you hear anything
> when it
> >> first loads.
> >> Then inspect the heads again for oxide whether you heard anything or
> not.
> >>
> >> Dan
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> 
> 
> 


From rdd at smart.net  Tue Oct  3 19:14:02 2000
From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
In-Reply-To: <007501c02d91$9ab95940$360a9a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010032007130.30949-100000@smarty.smart.net>

On Tue, 3 Oct 2000, ajp166 wrote:
> Ah, part of the joke is the people that would be most mystified by
> VMS is the Winders crowd.  Most of them have forgotten what
> C:> means or never have seen it.

Such people need to be given the choice between a front panel with
lights and patch-wires or no computer, then they should be allowed to
work their way up to VMS and eventually be given access to the 'net
after demonstrating an ability to send e-mail using macro-32.

--
Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of
All Rights Reserved            Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to
rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd   a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD 





From healyzh at aracnet.com  Tue Oct  3 19:17:58 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010031928340.30949-100000@smarty.smart.net> from "R. D. Davis" at Oct 03, 2000 07:39:09 PM
Message-ID: <200010040017.RAA32174@shell1.aracnet.com>

R. D. Davis wrote: 
> On Tue, 3 Oct 2000, Mike Cheponis wrote:
> > Ahhh, what's this "VMS" thing y'all are wasting bandwidth on?  I've heard
> > of a little-used and quite obsolete program that ran on some dec hardware
> > called "V-Mess" - is this the same thing?
> 
> Appears so.  Methinks they're discussing that fun thing to play with,
> that runs on VAXen, which has more neat features than UNIX yet never
> managed to become as useful as UNIX, but is much better than anything
> that Microsoft ever even thought of. ;-)

We're discussing that wonderous OS that runs on VAXen *AND* Alpha's.  That
OS which is more useful that UNIX if you know what you're doing :^)

> Is not what the world needs a good VMS/UNIX hybrid OS?  All the

Actually I'm pretty happy with a VMS/MacOS Hybrid system.  Put a MacOS
front-end running X-Windows and stick a VMS Cluster on the backend.  Totally
rocks!

> benefits of UNIX and VMS would surely drive Microsoft into the

In other words add true clustering, killer stability, awsome utilities, and 
good documentation, to a UNIX system?  Shoot UNIX is already so far ahead of
Windows it isn't funny :^)  Besides remember how much VMS tech Microsoft has
purchased to put in Windows 2000.

> ground... that is, it it weren't for those pesky average consumers
> with lots of purchasing power who know mostly nothing about computers
> and operating systems who get conned into wanting to purchase Peecees
> running Windoze.

Ugh, scary way of putting it.  I firmly believe that a person should not be
allowed to touch let alone BUY a computer until they get a "Computer Drivers
License"!  

			Zane

From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com  Tue Oct  3 20:44:14 2000
From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
Message-ID: <F191o8Xu1njpuP2GbwZ0000a819@hotmail.com>

Don't forget the main thing that UNIX needs...
Useful error messages!
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Tue Oct  3 20:53:33 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: RL02 question
Message-ID: <008c01c02da6$a86ef940$360a9a8d@ajp166>

From: Clint Wolff (VAX collector) <vaxman@uswest.net>


>Ahhh, I see... If the cartridge is subjected to excessive shock, the 
>disk pops loose from the magnetic holder in the bottom, and rattles
>around. I wish I remember which ones made 'clunking' sounds as I 
>unboxed them.
>
>Thanks for all the answers!


Almost but not quite.  the hub is a very sturdy bolted up
structure as it has to hod on to a 14" disk spiining at high 
speed.

However,  The disk is 14" and only 1/8" thick aluminum so a
shock in the wrong direction can warp it just like an only vinyl
record in the sun.

Allison



From jrkeys at concentric.net  Tue Oct  3 21:02:43 2000
From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: Apple I Auction
Message-ID: <015501c02da7$2feca480$d8701fd1@default>

Does anyone know what the selling price was for the Apple I  at VCF4
this past weekend ?
John Keys


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Tue Oct  3 20:59:24 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
Message-ID: <009f01c02da8$169dcd50$360a9a8d@ajp166>

From: R. D. Davis <rdd@smart.net>


>work their way up to VMS and eventually be given access to the 'net
>after demonstrating an ability to send e-mail using macro-32.


Back in the dark ages when people could barely say print servers
one of the local characteres took an apple laser writer and put it on 
a serial port of the local vax and wrote a DCL script so that you could 
either mail or print to the printer.  Worked pretty good for VMS-3.6!

from Macro-32 you have reall power available!

Allison



From ncherry at home.net  Tue Oct  3 21:25:05 2000
From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
References: <F191o8Xu1njpuP2GbwZ0000a819@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <39DA9501.44F4B197@home.net>

Will Jennings wrote:
> 
> Don't forget the main thing that UNIX needs...
> Useful error messages!

Like that of Windows, Ooops EMyBad. ;-)

Windows will now restart.

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

From eric at brouhaha.com  Tue Oct  3 21:25:07 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
In-Reply-To: <F191o8Xu1njpuP2GbwZ0000a819@hotmail.com>
	(xds_sigma7@hotmail.com)
References: <F191o8Xu1njpuP2GbwZ0000a819@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20001004022507.25702.qmail@brouhaha.com>

> Don't forget the main thing that UNIX needs...
> Useful error messages!

What, don't you like "values of B will give rise to dom!"?  :-)

For the full story, see
	http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/odd.html

From eric at brouhaha.com  Tue Oct  3 21:25:42 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:44 2005
Subject: Apple I Auction
In-Reply-To: <015501c02da7$2feca480$d8701fd1@default> (jrkeys@concentric.net)
References: <015501c02da7$2feca480$d8701fd1@default>
Message-ID: <20001004022542.25725.qmail@brouhaha.com>

John Keys asks:
> Does anyone know what the selling price was for the Apple I  at VCF4
> this past weekend ?

The $25,000 reserve was not met.

From rdd at smart.net  Tue Oct  3 21:31:19 2000
From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
In-Reply-To: <F191o8Xu1njpuP2GbwZ0000a819@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010032211340.20847-100000@smarty.smart.net>

On Tue, 3 Oct 2000, Will Jennings wrote:
> Don't forget the main thing that UNIX needs...
> Useful error messages!

Yes, I strongly agree, %AGSTAT-I-STRONGLY. :-)  Actually, I like the VMS
style errors so much that I use them in CGI scripts.  Anyone interested
in creating a VMS/UNIX hybrid? xVMUNIS?  UNIX, while extremely flexible,
and a great time-saver, can be boring.  VMS, while full of great features,
lacks the speed and hackability (=ease of use) of UNIX.  Just think, we
could be writing CGI scripts in DCshL, and editing them in TECOMACS.  But
wait, that's not all!  We could run all this on 11/730s as well as 3090s,
Peecees and old Sun workstations!  For the PDP-11s, we could have 
xRSUNI-11.  Just think, batch queuesm decent print spooling and useful
job control combined with short command names, lower case (or upper case
if one logs in using upper case and uses '\' characters while typing),
piping, easy to use redirection, etc.  Wow!!!

--
Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of
All Rights Reserved            Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to
rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd   a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD 





From harrison at timharrison.com  Tue Oct  3 21:42:37 2000
From: harrison at timharrison.com (Tim Harrison)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
References: <F191o8Xu1njpuP2GbwZ0000a819@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <39DA991D.65F12D9B@timharrison.com>

Will Jennings wrote:
 
> Don't forget the main thing that UNIX needs...
> Useful error messages!

I always thought that "segmentation fault: core dumped" was pretty
useful. ;)

I have to admit, though, that the OS/2 traps were the most ridiculous
error messages.  Worse than the BSoD.  Once you learned to read traps,
though, you could conquer the world.

-- 


Tim Harrison
Network Engineer
harrison@timharrison.com
http://www.networklevel.com/

From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu  Tue Oct  3 21:56:00 2000
From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
In-Reply-To: <39DA9501.44F4B197@home.net> from Neil Cherry at "Oct 3, 0 10:25:05 pm"
Message-ID: <200010040256.TAA17132@stockholm.ptloma.edu>

> Will Jennings wrote:
> > 
> > Don't forget the main thing that UNIX needs...
> > Useful error messages!
> 
> Like that of Windows, Ooops EMyBad. ;-)
> 
> Windows will now restart.

To restart Windows, Windows must be restarted.
Would you like to restart now?

-- 
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
 Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- It's not enough to be Hungarian. You must have talent too. -- Alex Korda ---

From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Tue Oct  3 22:00:38 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
Message-ID: <00c401c02daf$7db7ad10$360a9a8d@ajp166>

From: Will Jennings <xds_sigma7@hotmail.com>


>Don't forget the main thing that UNIX needs...
>Useful error messages!


Ow come on compared to winders they are positively inspired
even useful!

Allison


From wmsmith at earthlink.net  Wed Oct  4 00:39:23 2000
From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: Apple I Auction
References: <015501c02da7$2feca480$d8701fd1@default> <20001004022542.25725.qmail@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <00bb01c02dc5$74472240$e099b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net>

> John Keys asks:
> > Does anyone know what the selling price was for the
Apple I  at VCF4
> > this past weekend ?
>
> The $25,000 reserve was not met.
>
After returning from the Computer Museum History Center
tour, I overheard the son of the owner say that the
high bid was $18K, and that the owner had turned it
down.


From foo at siconic.com  Tue Oct  3 23:59:02 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: Apple I Auction
In-Reply-To: <015501c02da7$2feca480$d8701fd1@default>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010032156530.21767-100000@siconic.com>

On Tue, 3 Oct 2000, John R. Keys Jr. wrote:

> Does anyone know what the selling price was for the Apple I  at VCF4
> this past weekend ?

The high bid was $18,000, which did not meet the $25,000 reserve.
However, a private sale has almost been completed, and I'll announce the
details once the deal is done.

Sellam                                International Man of Intrigue and Danger
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...

                       VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
               San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
                    See http://www.vintage.org for details!



From frustum at pacbell.net  Wed Oct  4 01:02:35 2000
From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: Sad auction story [exidy sorcerer]
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20000814213130.00aec100@pacbell.net>
References: <4.1.20000725133739.009151d0@mail.pressstart.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001003225742.00b903d0@pacbell.net>

You may recall that back in September, I relayed a particularly
painful yahoo auction deal.

In that auction, I won an "Exidy Sorcerer Computer" for $205,
plus shipping.  After prompt payment and prompt delivery,
I opened the box to find nothing but the case of the computer
with the guts removed, and a sheet of plywood screwed inside
the bottom of the case to weigh it down.

I was just reminded that I hadn't sent on the resolution of this
situation, as some people here asked to be kept abreast of it.

After a number of emails back & forth, dispassionate but insistent,
the seller agreed to refund $100 of my $205.  So, I limited my
losses, but I also ended up spending over $100 for a case and
keyboard.

Needless to say, I'll be more careful in the future.  This is my
only really bad deal in about 80 auction transactions (70%
buying, 30% selling).
-----
Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net


From flo at rdel.co.uk  Wed Oct  4 02:53:56 2000
From: flo at rdel.co.uk (Paul Williams)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: Sad auction story [exidy sorcerer]
References: <4.1.20000725133739.009151d0@mail.pressstart.com> <4.3.2.7.0.20001003225742.00b903d0@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <39DAE214.13ADD212@rdel.co.uk>

Jim Battle wrote:
> 
> So, I limited my losses, but I also ended up spending over $100 for
> a case and keyboard.
> Needless to say, I'll be more careful in the future.

Sorry to hear that, Jim. Although these computers are generally sold "as
is", I always make sure that the computer has recently powered up okay
before bidding.

An RML 380Z recently came up on eBay, described as not working, but the
seller said that it _had_ been working, but a recent move had stopped it
powering up. Although he said that "it is probably something simple,
like a loose lead on the power supply", it left me wondering why, if it
was so simple, he hadn't put it right and sold it as a working machine!
I'd love to acquire a working 380Z, but everyone steered clear of this
one -- no bids at all.

I don't always buy working machines, though. I've just spent the
princely sum of ?1 on a VT125 with no controller board, just power
supply and tube. The case is in good condition, though, so I can
photograph it in various states of undress for my Web site, and I can
stroke its lovely curves during the long winter evenings. Ahem.

From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Wed Oct  4 04:52:01 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: console multiplexor
In-Reply-To: <200010030348.UAA21885@shell1.aracnet.com>
References: <4.3.1.2.20001002201320.00e5abe0@208.226.86.10> from "Chuck
 McManis" at Oct 02, 2000 08:21:27 PM
Message-ID: <l03102809b600ade6ca8f@[192.168.1.4]>

>> Now all I need is a console multiplexor.
>
>Any idea's?  This is something I *REALLY* need.

Want to explain a bit more what it really is, what might be printed on its
box etc.?

I know I have boxes called multiplexors, but no clue on the console bit.



From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Wed Oct  4 04:46:57 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: Looking for ASR33 in SoCal
In-Reply-To: <39D94BF5.CCEDB5BA@routerguy.com>
Message-ID: <l03102808b600ace08cd4@[192.168.1.4]>

>Hello.
>
>I need spare parts for my ASR 33 and/or looking for enough to refurb
>another unit.  Preferably one now with the "internal" acoustic coupler
>modem.
>
>If you are in SoCal and have one, let me know.
>
>Chris Johnston
>chris@routerguy.com

You might give this place a try, I sold them a manual a while back.

davescharffenberg     rcc@empirenet.com



From agraham at ccat.co.uk  Wed Oct  4 04:12:52 2000
From: agraham at ccat.co.uk (Adrian Graham)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
Message-ID: <00Oct4.101257bst.46096@gatekeeper.ccat.co.uk>

Hehe - I've got another version of this on my wall behind me ATM and it has
these extra lines:

When you hear the word 'runoff' you don't think of water

Your first reaction to a supposed problem is not to reboot the system

You can complete a 10-hour EDT session without looking at the keypad but
stare at the telephone to dial a number

You don't think 'fubar' is obscene

To you, the phrase 'NT CLUSTER' is humorous

You kow that there's something fishy in the Pacific North-West AND IT SURE
AIN'T SALMON.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: healyzh@aracnet.com [mailto:healyzh@aracnet.com]
> Sent: 03 October 2000 21:36
> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org
> Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
> 
> 
> I was trying to find the order number for the OpenVMS 
> V7.2-1/Alpha update,
> and came across the following little tidbit.  With all the 
> VMS traffic here
> the last few days I thought a few people might enjoy this.  
> I'm sure a lot
> of you have seen this before.
 

From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com  Wed Oct  4 08:37:44 2000
From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: console multiplexor
In-Reply-To: <l03102809b600ade6ca8f@[192.168.1.4]>
References: <200010030348.UAA21885@shell1.aracnet.com>
 <4.3.1.2.20001002201320.00e5abe0@208.226.86.10>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001004063744.0099e100@pop.sttl.uswest.net>

At 01:52 04-10-2000 -0800, Mike Ford wrote:

>>> Now all I need is a console multiplexor.
>>
>>Any idea's?  This is something I *REALLY* need.
>
>Want to explain a bit more what it really is, what might be printed on its
>box etc.?
>
>I know I have boxes called multiplexors, but no clue on the console bit.

	Ummm... I use an eight-port stat-MUX in the garage, and a matching one in
my workspace, to bring the console ports for the router and various Unix
boxen into a dumb terminal and multi-port switchbox.

	Could this be what's being referred to?


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies
http://www.bluefeathertech.com  // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com
Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 (Extra class as of June-2K)
"I'll get a life when someone demonstrates to me that it would be
superior to what I have now..." (Gym Z. Quirk, aka Taki Kogoma).

From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org  Wed Oct  4 11:19:24 2000
From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
In-Reply-To: <00Oct4.101257bst.46096@gatekeeper.ccat.co.uk> from Adrian Graham
 at "Oct 4, 2000 10:12:52 am"
Message-ID: <200010041619.e94GJOo08942@bg-tc-ppp965.monmouth.com>

Damn...

I was with you right through the fubar line.
Spent too many hours troubleshooting flaky Unibus problems on 
11/780's with semi-fried Unibus or UBA's.

Hearing anyone decode the FUBAR makes me twitch.


Bill


> Hehe - I've got another version of this on my wall behind me ATM and it has
> these extra lines:
> 
> When you hear the word 'runoff' you don't think of water
> 
> Your first reaction to a supposed problem is not to reboot the system
> 
> You can complete a 10-hour EDT session without looking at the keypad but
> stare at the telephone to dial a number
> 
> You don't think 'fubar' is obscene
> 
> To you, the phrase 'NT CLUSTER' is humorous
> 
> You kow that there's something fishy in the Pacific North-West AND IT SURE
> AIN'T SALMON.
> 



From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com  Wed Oct  4 11:46:32 2000
From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: Need help identifying the following IC/CHIP
In-Reply-To: <200010031829.LAA11807@civic.hal.com>
Message-ID: <000301c02e22$a72d6630$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>

>> Hey I'm just an initiate on these things.  Most modern
>> EPROMs seem to have poured (once liquid) windows, older
>> ones have the sliced crystalline slab windows.  You mean
>> to say thet the solidified windows are quartz also?

>yes

>> I thought the M.P. of Quartz was astronomically high.

>also yes


Actually I hoping that someone had neat stories on
 >How<  Quartz could be molded like glass so cheaply.
I get the impression that there is nothing special about
EPROM windows...  until you hear that they're Quartz.

John A.


From rmeenaks at olf.com  Wed Oct  4 11:46:38 2000
From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: Need a copy of TI TMS320C40 C Compiler
Message-ID: <39DB5EEE.4030002@olf.com>

Hi,

I just received a TI TMS320C40 DSP + Inmos T805 transputer TRAM module.  
Quite a neat board.  Does anyone have a C compiler for it?  I havent 
tried out GCC yet, but according to the manufacturer, it was 
specifically designed for TI C compiler...

Ram


From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com  Wed Oct  4 11:53:59 2000
From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: console multiplexor
In-Reply-To: <l03102809b600ade6ca8f@[192.168.1.4]>
References: <200010030348.UAA21885@shell1.aracnet.com>
 <4.3.1.2.20001002201320.00e5abe0@208.226.86.10>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20001004094213.028dc2e0@208.226.86.10>

At 01:52 AM 10/4/00 -0800, Mike Ford wrote:
> >> Now all I need is a console multiplexor.
> >
> >Any idea's?  This is something I *REALLY* need.
>
>Want to explain a bit more what it really is, what might be printed on its
>box etc.?

Well in this case I was talking about a multiplexor for DEC RS-423 
consoles. I suppose this would have some number of MMJ ports (no doubt an 
odd number :-) and one would go to one's "console" and the others to the 
other machines you are controlling.

Clearly the simplest solution is a 6PnT rotary switch, some cables wired up 
with MMJ plugs crimped on their ends. I'm planning to build one of these as 
I have all the parts and that will get the console going on the micro-cluster.

Somewhat more clever is to use a CMOS switch and some push buttons with 
LEDs and get the whole thing to be 'lectronic. You could have an LED 
indicate which console was selected and another to show traffic on that 
console. If I get ambitious this is the first one I'll actually build 
(skipping #1 above).

However, if you're willing to be really clever then you can do much better 
than this. I've got a nice color terminal (the Link MC70 although its color 
is a bit unstable these days :-() or I could use a DEC VT340 (probably the 
actual version for display) and you could, with a bit of smarts and some 
buffering take output from the RS-423 lines, and prior to forwarding them 
on to the terminal you could inject ANSI color codes on/off. This would 
make the output from each console a different color. (keeping them straight 
is of course the challenge) If you are really clever you don't allow one 
console to interrupt another mid-line either. I've got an old single board 
Z80 system that could probably do this, or I could wimp out and use a CPLD 
feeding a Scenix chip.

Anyway, all that aside. If you come across a box that has a selector switch 
on the front and a row of MMJ's on the back, that is probably what I'm 
looking for :-)

--Chuck


From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com  Wed Oct  4 12:10:41 2000
From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: cluster stuff [was Re: Changing logicals on VMS?]
In-Reply-To: <v04020a18b5ffd0f35b19@[192.168.1.5]>
References: <4.3.1.2.20001002210807.00d0aa40@208.226.86.10>
 <200010030348.UAA21885@shell1.aracnet.com>
 <4.3.1.2.20001002201320.00e5abe0@208.226.86.10>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20001004100508.00d22600@208.226.86.10>

At 11:13 AM 10/3/00 -0700, you wrote:
>Actually this is more or less the solution I was thinking of (using a
>vax) if I couldn't find an off the shelf solution.  Is there any console
>server software for VMS?

There isn't a VMS solution but that other OS (NetBSD) ...
--Chuck



From elvey at hal.com  Wed Oct  4 12:16:14 2000
From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: Need help identifying the following IC/CHIP
In-Reply-To: <000301c02e22$a72d6630$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>
Message-ID: <200010041716.KAA17797@civic.hal.com>

"John Allain" <John.Allain@donnelley.infousa.com> wrote:
> >
> Actually I hoping that someone had neat stories on
>  >How<  Quartz could be molded like glass so cheaply.
> I get the impression that there is nothing special about
> EPROM windows...  until you hear that they're Quartz.
> 
> John A.

Hi John
 The lids you are talking about are quartz windows in
ceramic lids. From what I remember, the quartz is melted
into the ceramic and then allowed to cool. The ceramic
doesn't melt and has a slightly higher coefficient of
expansion. This forms a air tight seal. It is done
in an induction oven under a soft vacuum so heating isn't
a big issue.
Dwight


From mmcfadden at cmh.edu  Wed Oct  4 12:41:29 2000
From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
Message-ID: <E7AC96207335D411B1E7009027FC284906BD1C@EXCHANGE2>

Real programmers use DCL and FORTRAN.

I used to work for a large engineering firm which used VAXes and VT220's for
everything.  Mostly we used 11/750's and 11/780's for CAD/CAM.  We tried PRO
350's and 380's for engineering applications.  I originally programmed
structural design of pipe hangers on a PRO 350.  For word processing they
purchased AT&T 6300's with 10MB HardCards to replace all of the typewriters.
All of a sudden everybody could create a document and send it out.  File
copies were never created or lost.  Some people used WordPerfect, MultiMate,
WordStar, and IBM DisplayWrite 3.  Fonts, margins, and layout all went
crazy.  How would you like to pay 4 million dollars for a set of Coal fired
power plant manuals and end up with a mess?

We standardized on IBM DisplayWrite 3 and I was given the task of  capturing
all of the printing and filing it.  We used a MicroVAX II to drive Xerox
2700 laser printers on each floor.  Every time you printed we captured and
archived a copy.  I then created a FORTRAN77 program on the VAX to translate
EBCDIC IBM DisplayWrite3 documents to ASCII and then print them.  We also
included the ability to take HPGL plot files and scale them to fit into an
area in a document.  We also added special symbols, foreign characters and
logos.  

Engineering companies only believe in FORTRAN.  We had a bad experience with
a programmer who wrote lots of code in "C" and then left.  

Most of my support time was spend proving that my software was not at fault
when the PC's were not working, the network was hosed or the printer was out
of paper.  Computer viruses were not a problem, only game players, and wierd
spell checkers.  

I still have my copies of the FORTRAN version of a word processor print
spooling application. 

Mike
mmcfadden@cmh.edu


From elvey at hal.com  Wed Oct  4 13:14:31 2000
From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: VCF 4.0 - how was it?
In-Reply-To: <000601c02cbb$84981600$013da8c0@Corellian>
Message-ID: <200010041814.LAA17879@civic.hal.com>

"John Lewczyk" <jlewczyk@his.com> wrote:
> Anyone who attended care to share their impressions of it?  I didn't get to
> attend this year.

Hi John
 It was a lot of fun. Here are some pictures another fellow
took:

http://www.atari-history.com/vcf4/vcf4_intro.html

 I had the NIC-80 that is in the bottom row of pictures.
I didn't get to spend as much time as I'd have liked
talking to others about their machines but it was still
a lot of fun. I also had three pinball machines as
CA Extreme so I was real tired after the weekend.
Everything had to be moved in Saturday morning and taken
out Sunday night. I only had my Cherokee to make round trips
with pins and computer. I gave a talk but I only had a
few people show for my talk. I guess I don't have the name
recognition. Those that did come were vary interested
and had a lot of questions. One of the other talks
by Jim Willing was showing the opening of a box containing
a NOS Poly 8813. Jim brought it up in stages and it was
great fun. I had to miss the best part because my talk
started. It seems a tantalum or two popped and flamed.
I heard it and smelled it but I sure would have loved
to have seen it. What fun!
 My Nicolet received three ribbons. I was hoping for at
least one but didn't expect three.
Dwight


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Oct  4 13:17:03 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: Sad auction story [exidy sorcerer]
In-Reply-To: <39DAE214.13ADD212@rdel.co.uk> from "Paul Williams" at Oct 4, 0 08:53:56 am
Message-ID: <m13gt6I-000IyNC@p850ug1>

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Oct  4 13:10:03 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010032001240.30949-100000@smarty.smart.net> from "R. D. Davis" at Oct 3, 0 08:05:27 pm
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From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
In-Reply-To: <00Oct4.101257bst.46096@gatekeeper.ccat.co.uk> from "Adrian Graham" at Oct 4, 0 10:12:52 am
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From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Wed Oct  4 15:07:04 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: OT collecting old Pinballs
In-Reply-To: <200010041814.LAA17879@civic.hal.com>
References: <000601c02cbb$84981600$013da8c0@Corellian>
Message-ID: <l03102807b6013d4d7caf@[192.168.1.4]>

Anybody else have pinball machines of the more than 10 years old category?

I have just one, a Williams Blackout, mostly in perfect shape, but needing
some work (never forget to press the reset button when you let the memory
battery go dead). I need to replace some resistors on the display board
(think of them as fuses, a common problem I hear), a new thunker from not
pressing the reset until the old one fried, and who knows what else (I
haven't looked inside in close to 10 years).



From ncherry at home.net  Wed Oct  4 14:29:30 2000
From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
References: <200010041619.e94GJOo08942@bg-tc-ppp965.monmouth.com>
Message-ID: <39DB851A.2EF93FAB@home.net>

Bill Pechter wrote:
> 
> Damn...
> 
> I was with you right through the fubar line.
> Spent too many hours troubleshooting flaky Unibus problems on
> 11/780's with semi-fried Unibus or UBA's.
> 
> Hearing anyone decode the FUBAR makes me twitch.

Uhmm isn't the computer version Foo bar as in Foo bar blatz zam zow
(I'm not sure about the last ones anymore). I once named a 3B2 310
Foobar and thought nothing of it. Management came to me and requested an
explaination until they saw the spelling (I was on a support hotline, 
fubar is a fact of life there).

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

From ncherry at home.net  Wed Oct  4 14:33:34 2000
From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: Changing logicals on VMS?
References: <200010030348.UAA21885@shell1.aracnet.com>
	 <4.3.1.2.20001002201320.00e5abe0@208.226.86.10> <v04020a18b5ffd0f35b19@[192.168.1.5]>
Message-ID: <39DB860E.36F1D6FB@home.net>

"Zane H. Healy" wrote:

> Actually this is more or less the solution I was thinking of if I couldn't
> find an off the shelf solution.  Is there any console server software for
> VMS?  We'd been using Sparc 2's with ton's of serial ports at work, but now
> are switching to PC's running Linux with ton's of ports.  The downside of
> this is the best system I can come up with for this at the moment would be
> my MicroVAX 3, and I don't want to put that in my apartment running full
> time!  Guess I need a MV3100 with a bunch of ports.

You might consider getting a used terminal port server. One that supports
MOP of course. :-) You could put 1 terminal on the terminal server and
then 'telnet' to each port, or other machine or internet of whatever. :-)

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

From elvey at hal.com  Wed Oct  4 14:34:01 2000
From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: OT collecting old Pinballs
In-Reply-To: <l03102807b6013d4d7caf@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <200010041934.MAA18111@civic.hal.com>

Mike Ford <mikeford@socal.rr.com> wrote:
> Anybody else have pinball machines of the more than 10 years old category?
> 
> I have just one, a Williams Blackout, mostly in perfect shape, but needing
> some work (never forget to press the reset button when you let the memory
> battery go dead). I need to replace some resistors on the display board
> (think of them as fuses, a common problem I hear), a new thunker from not
> pressing the reset until the old one fried, and who knows what else (I
> haven't looked inside in close to 10 years).
> 


Hi
 These are computers as well. As I mentioned about VCF, I
had three at CA Extreme. Most all of mine are about 20 years
old. I like collecting the early computerized ones. Most
of these used 6800's but I also have one with 6502 based.
My machines:

Gottlieb  Genie
Gottlieb  The Games
Bally     Super Sonic
Bally     Night Rider
Bally     Baby PacMan ( combo vid/pin )
Stern     Stars
Atari     Middle Earth

 Most of the skills one learns working on other classic
computers relate vary well to these machines. There is also
the mechanical parts to deal with and hundreds of light bulbs.
I'll have to admit that I enjoy fixing them more than playing
but playing is fun as well.
Dwight


From elvey at hal.com  Wed Oct  4 14:37:49 2000
From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
In-Reply-To: <39DB851A.2EF93FAB@home.net>
Message-ID: <200010041937.MAA18124@civic.hal.com>

Neil Cherry <ncherry@home.net> wrote:
> Bill Pechter wrote:
> > 
> > Damn...
> > 
> > I was with you right through the fubar line.
> > Spent too many hours troubleshooting flaky Unibus problems on
> > 11/780's with semi-fried Unibus or UBA's.
> > 
> > Hearing anyone decode the FUBAR makes me twitch.
> 
> Uhmm isn't the computer version Foo bar as in Foo bar blatz zam zow
> (I'm not sure about the last ones anymore). I once named a 3B2 310
> Foobar and thought nothing of it. Management came to me and requested an
> explaination until they saw the spelling (I was on a support hotline, 
> fubar is a fact of life there).

Hi
 Besides, what is wrong with "fouled up beyond all recognition"??
Dwight


From rivie at teraglobal.com  Wed Oct  4 14:59:01 2000
From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
In-Reply-To: <39DB851A.2EF93FAB@home.net>
References: <200010041619.e94GJOo08942@bg-tc-ppp965.monmouth.com>
 <39DB851A.2EF93FAB@home.net>
Message-ID: <v04210100b6013c5883ee@[10.2.0.84]>

> > Hearing anyone decode the FUBAR makes me twitch.
>
>Uhmm isn't the computer version Foo bar as in Foo bar blatz zam zow
>(I'm not sure about the last ones anymore).

FUBAR = Failed UniBus Address Register

--
Roger Ivie
rivie@teraglobal.com
Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation

From rivie at teraglobal.com  Wed Oct  4 15:16:49 2000
From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
In-Reply-To: <200010041937.MAA18124@civic.hal.com>
References: <200010041937.MAA18124@civic.hal.com>
Message-ID: <v04210101b6013f7c40d2@[10.2.0.84]>

Dwight Elvey wrote:
>Neil Cherry <ncherry@home.net> wrote:
> > Bill Pechter wrote:
> > > Hearing anyone decode the FUBAR makes me twitch.
> >
> > Uhmm isn't the computer version Foo bar as in Foo bar blatz zam zow
> > (I'm not sure about the last ones anymore).
>Hi
> Besides, what is wrong with "fouled up beyond all recognition"??

Given that my last experience with FUBAR was only a
couple of years ago on a VAX 6520, it certainly fits.

Getting a UNIBUS on a 6520 goes something like this:

   - CPUs and memory live on NMI
   - An NMI->XMI adapter gets you to
   - an XMI->VAXBI adapter which gets you to
   - a VAXBI->UNIBUS adapter on which you can find
   - your UNIBUS device

Occasionally the UNIBUS device would nose over. It
looked to me like the VAXBI->UNIBUS adapter was getting
in trouble occasionally (not necessarily surprising,
given how deep things are getting piled here (did I
forget to mention 6520s use write-back cache?)). About
the time I was starting to get a handle on the problem
my employment situation changed and I wasn't working on
it anymore. I'll be surprised if I ever hear what was
going on and how (or if) it got resolved.

--
Roger Ivie
rivie@teraglobal.com
Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation

From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Wed Oct  4 16:19:07 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: Need SCSI interface for Microvax 3400
In-Reply-To: <39D92369.A65A04F7@eoni.com>
References: <200010022227.PAA14052@shell1.aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <l03102808b6014f0ba950@[192.168.1.4]>

>I beg to differ...  try:
><http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=452022321>
>
>Currently $10.

Gives me a chuckle everytime somebody thinks the bid value prior to closing
means something. Currently $25 with 6 hrs to go.



From healyzh at aracnet.com  Wed Oct  4 15:59:59 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: Console Servers (was: cluster stuff [was Re: Changing lo)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20001004100508.00d22600@208.226.86.10> from "Chuck McManis" at Oct 04, 2000 10:10:41 AM
Message-ID: <200010042059.NAA23129@shell1.aracnet.com>

> 
> At 11:13 AM 10/3/00 -0700, you wrote:
> >Actually this is more or less the solution I was thinking of (using a
> >vax) if I couldn't find an off the shelf solution.  Is there any console
> >server software for VMS?
> 
> There isn't a VMS solution but that other OS (NetBSD) ...
> --Chuck
> 
> 

Have you looked into doing Reverse LAT with a DECserver?  I've heard it's
possible, but haven't tried.  Don't think it's quite what you want anyway.

I'm aware of the UNIX solutions, I just don't have any multiport serial
cards for any of my UNIX boxes.

			Zane

From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Wed Oct  4 17:13:04 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
In-Reply-To: <200010041937.MAA18124@civic.hal.com>
References: <39DB851A.2EF93FAB@home.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001004171304.330f712c@mailhost.intellistar.net>

At 12:37 PM 10/4/00 -0700, Dwight wrote:
>
>Hi
> Besides, what is wrong with "fouled up beyond all recognition"??

   Umm. You never were in the service were you? :-)

    Joe



From korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu  Wed Oct  4 16:16:13 2000
From: korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
In-Reply-To: <39DB851A.2EF93FAB@home.net> from Neil Cherry at "Oct 4, 2000 03:29:30
 pm"
Message-ID: <200010042116.OAA01786@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu>

> Uhmm isn't the computer version Foo bar as in Foo bar blatz zam zow
> (I'm not sure about the last ones anymore). I once named a 3B2 310
> Foobar and thought nothing of it. Management came to me and requested an
> explaination until they saw the spelling (I was on a support hotline, 
> fubar is a fact of life there).

Were they worried about the language, or the meaning of the acronym?

I once named a Sparcstation "mofo" and it carries that tag to this day.
(128.32.98.214)  Then again this is a university and there is no management.
:)

I've alway wondered if Morrison and Foerster thought about it before they
picked the name of their website (mofo.com).  I guess it's approprate for
the subject matter.

Eric

From elvey at hal.com  Wed Oct  4 16:28:43 2000
From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001004171304.330f712c@mailhost.intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <200010042128.OAA18461@civic.hal.com>

Joe <rigdonj@intellistar.net> wrote:
> At 12:37 PM 10/4/00 -0700, Dwight wrote:
> >
> >Hi
> > Besides, what is wrong with "fouled up beyond all recognition"??
> 
>    Umm. You never were in the service were you? :-)
> 
>     Joe
> 

Hi Joe
 Yes, we used it differently when I was in the service.
Everything was different then.
Dwight


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Oct  4 16:22:05 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
In-Reply-To: <39DB851A.2EF93FAB@home.net> from "Neil Cherry" at Oct 4, 0 03:29:30 pm
Message-ID: <m13gvzN-000IyHC@p850ug1>

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From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org  Wed Oct  4 16:56:23 2000
From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: Console Servers (was: cluster stuff [was Re: Changing lo)
In-Reply-To: <200010042059.NAA23129@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com"
 at "Oct 4, 2000 01:59:59 pm"
Message-ID: <200010042156.e94LuO409700@bg-tc-ppp295.monmouth.com>

> I'm aware of the UNIX solutions, I just don't have any multiport serial
> cards for any of my UNIX boxes.
> 
> 			Zane

They're around... as a matter of fact if anyone on the list wants a 
AST 4 port serial card contact me off list.

Bill
-- 
bpechter@monmouth.com      |     Microsoft: Where do you want to go today?
                           |     Linux:     Where do you want to go tomorrow?
                           |     BSD:       Are you guys coming, or what?

From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Wed Oct  4 17:30:53 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
In-Reply-To: <200010041937.MAA18124@civic.hal.com>
References: <39DB851A.2EF93FAB@home.net>
Message-ID: <l03102801b6015ebf617f@[192.168.1.4]>

> Besides, what is wrong with "fouled up beyond all recognition"??

That, like reading the "fine" manual, doesn't fool many.

BTW YMBAVMSB if The funniest story you know is about some user and you
heard it at Decus (wow do I miss the old DECUS, and I was just going for
the food).

My two favorites are;

The user who complains about the computer running slow today.

The "test" meltdown routine some guy left in DEC control system at a nuke
plant, and it ran during some demo.



From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com  Wed Oct  4 16:51:51 2000
From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
Message-ID: <F210eQLa5DLkd4H02Wh00004275@hotmail.com>

Amusingly, that website of those lawyers currently says "MoFo among Working 
Mother Top 100" or something like that.. heh

Will J
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.


From eric at brouhaha.com  Wed Oct  4 17:08:36 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: VCF 4.0 - how was it?
In-Reply-To: <200010041814.LAA17879@civic.hal.com> (message from Dwight Elvey
	on Wed, 4 Oct 2000 11:14:31 -0700 (PDT))
References: <200010041814.LAA17879@civic.hal.com>
Message-ID: <20001004220836.6154.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Dwight Elvey <elvey@hal.com> wrote:
>  My Nicolet received three ribbons. I was hoping for at
> least one but didn't expect three.

I've proposed a new award category for next year, the
Award for the Most Awards.  :-)

From eric at brouhaha.com  Wed Oct  4 17:11:33 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: Console Servers (was: cluster stuff [was Re: Changing lo)
In-Reply-To: <200010042059.NAA23129@shell1.aracnet.com> (healyzh@aracnet.com)
References: <200010042059.NAA23129@shell1.aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <20001004221133.6176.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Zane writes:
> Have you looked into doing Reverse LAT with a DECserver?  I've heard it's
> possible, but haven't tried.  Don't think it's quite what you want anyway.

I've got several DECserver 200/MC boxes available for sale or trade.  No
idea if they do reverse LAT (or, for that matter, normal forward LAT).

From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org  Wed Oct  4 17:25:44 2000
From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: FUBAR and DW780
In-Reply-To: <m13gvzN-000IyHC@p850ug1> from Tony Duell at "Oct 4, 2000 10:22:05
 pm"
Message-ID: <200010042225.e94MPiI09763@bg-tc-ppp295.monmouth.com>

> > > Hearing anyone decode the FUBAR makes me twitch.
> > 
> > Uhmm isn't the computer version Foo bar as in Foo bar blatz zam zow
> 
> On some models of VAX there's a hardware register that stores (part of) 
> the address of a Unibus cycle where the selected device failed to 
> respond. This register is called, not suprisingly, the
> 
> Failed UniBus Address Register
> 
> or FUBAR in the technical manual, printset, etc. And yes, I am aware of 
> the other expansions of FUBAR, and I am sure the designers were as well...
> 
> -tony

And since the Unibus adapter logic on the DW780 is spread out badly 
over 4 1/2 boards (the @#$%^ paddle card has some along with the
terminator) it's a bear to troubleshoot by swapping without a full kit.

And it goes intermittant a lot...

Bill

-- 
bpechter@monmouth.com      |     Microsoft: Where do you want to go today?
                           |     Linux:     Where do you want to go tomorrow?
                           |     BSD:       Are you guys coming, or what?

From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org  Wed Oct  4 17:33:16 2000
From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: FUBAR and bar
In-Reply-To: <m13gt9c-000IyQC@p850ug1> from Tony Duell at "Oct 4, 2000 07:20:29
 pm"
Message-ID: <200010042233.e94MXG509843@bg-tc-ppp295.monmouth.com>

> > 
> > Hehe - I've got another version of this on my wall behind me ATM and it has
> > these extra lines:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > You don't think 'fubar' is obscene
> 
> ... although some of the things you'll say while diagnosing a fault that 
> sets the FUBAR most certainly are :-)
> 
> -tony

Very rarely is the Failed Unibus Address Register pointing to the 
failed device... often the DW780 is the problem.

This problem drove me to drink -- literally.  It only happened once in
my career.

I know this from 24 hours of troubleshooting one in the mid 80's
(of course the Go-Go bar next door wasn't the best place to go for 
lunch if quality diagnostic techniques were to be used.)

It took 4 hours between failure and the customer wouldn't give the
machine up too long.  Took two swaps of DW780 boards two at a time
to fix it.  Had to wait in the go-go bar next door.

The boards that were bad (intermittant) were the two that the
diagnostics didn't call out for the fault type we were getting.

This was probably where DEC Field Circus got it's name and reputation.
I WALKED back to the site next door instead of driving because
I figured I couldn't drive legally due to the content of lunch.

Bill
-- 
bpechter@monmouth.com      |     Microsoft: Where do you want to go today?
                           |     Linux:     Where do you want to go tomorrow?
                           |     BSD:       Are you guys coming, or what?

From healyzh at aracnet.com  Wed Oct  4 17:29:47 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: Console Servers (was: cluster stuff [was Re: Changing lo)
In-Reply-To: <20001004221133.6176.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Oct 04, 2000 10:11:33 PM
Message-ID: <200010042229.PAA01046@shell1.aracnet.com>

> 
> Zane writes:
> > Have you looked into doing Reverse LAT with a DECserver?  I've heard it's
> > possible, but haven't tried.  Don't think it's quite what you want anyway.
> 
> I've got several DECserver 200/MC boxes available for sale or trade.  No
> idea if they do reverse LAT (or, for that matter, normal forward LAT).
> 

They should do at least normal LAT.  I've not played with the one I've got,
but IIRC you've got to setup a VMS system to download the software to the
terminal server before you can actually do anything with it.

Been wanting to try this with that box specifically, but haven't had time to
even dig the box out of storage.

			Zane

From dankolb at ox.compsoc.net  Wed Oct  4 17:42:26 2000
From: dankolb at ox.compsoc.net (Dan Kolb)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
In-Reply-To: <l03102801b6015ebf617f@[192.168.1.4]>
References: <39DB851A.2EF93FAB@home.net> <l03102801b6015ebf617f@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <00100423422602.13570@kronos>

On Wed, 04 Oct 2000, Mike Ford wrote:
>
> My two favorites are;
>
> The user who complains about the computer running slow today.
> 
> The "test" meltdown routine some guy left in DEC control system at a nuke
> plant, and it ran during some demo.

Please tell the stories, or am I the only one who doesn't know them?

Dan
-- 
dankolb@ox.compsoc.net  Oxford University Computer Society Secretary
 
--I reserve the right to be completely wrong about any comments or
  opinions expressed; don't trust everything you read above--  

From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Wed Oct  4 17:38:54 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: console multiplexor
Message-ID: <002e01c02e54$de4f3f80$29109a8d@ajp166>

From: Chuck McManis <cmcmanis@mcmanis.com>


>Clearly the simplest solution is a 6PnT rotary switch, some cables wired
up
>with MMJ plugs crimped on their ends. I'm planning to build one of these
as
>I have all the parts and that will get the console going on the
micro-cluster.


That would work if you assert RxD to spacing on disconnect.

Me, I cheat.  I don't bother connecting a tube (unless required like
during initial install)
and when needed I use the VT1200 to connect via the net once that is up.

>However, if you're willing to be really clever then you can do much
better
>than this. I've got a nice color terminal (the Link MC70 although its
color
>is a bit unstable these days :-() or I could use a DEC VT340 (probably
the
>actual version for display) and you could, with a bit of smarts and some
>buffering take output from the RS-423 lines, and prior to forwarding
them
>on to the terminal you could inject ANSI color codes on/off. This would
>make the output from each console a different color. (keeping them
straight
>is of course the challenge) If you are really clever you don't allow one
>console to interrupt another mid-line either. I've got an old single
board
>Z80 system that could probably do this, or I could wimp out and use a
CPLD
>feeding a Scenix chip.


Could be done with Vt125 or better yet....

Like I used to do with a Vt320, the system write a status line (25th) in
response to a simple request "@who" which runs a DCL script.  the
request was stored as the "respones line" on the terminal or as a
simple "w" [set W*ho="@who.com".   Also other defined commands
terminate with a call to who.   The status line also has current
directory
and account. the switch box was a LQPX2-SW and MMJ to DB/P25
cabling.

Allison




From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Wed Oct  4 17:40:54 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: cluster stuff [was Re: Changing logicals on VMS?]
Message-ID: <002f01c02e54$df316220$29109a8d@ajp166>

From: Chuck McManis <cmcmanis@mcmanis.com>
To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Date: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 1:48 PM
Subject: cluster stuff [was Re: Changing logicals on VMS?]


>At 11:13 AM 10/3/00 -0700, you wrote:
>>Actually this is more or less the solution I was thinking of (using a
>>vax) if I couldn't find an off the shelf solution.  Is there any
console
>>server software for VMS?
>
>There isn't a VMS solution but that other OS (NetBSD) ...

Wasnt Unicenter (polycenter?))a vax console product?  I know
there was a common console product to allow single point
management.

Allison


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Wed Oct  4 17:43:50 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: Console Servers (was: cluster stuff [was Re: Changing lo)
Message-ID: <003001c02e54$e03febf0$29109a8d@ajp166>

From: Eric Smith <eric@brouhaha.com>

>Zane writes:
>> Have you looked into doing Reverse LAT with a DECserver?  I've heard
it's
>> possible, but haven't tried.  Don't think it's quite what you want
anyway.
>
>I've got several DECserver 200/MC boxes available for sale or trade.  No
>idea if they do reverse LAT (or, for that matter, normal forward LAT).


the do both with the right host software.  They were _the_ LAT box
for serial lines via Eithernet.

Allison


From gwynp at artware.qc.ca  Wed Oct  4 17:46:48 2000
From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:45 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
In-Reply-To: <m13gszX-000IyJC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <XFMail.20001004184648.gwynp@artware.qc.ca>


On 04-Oct-2000 Tony Duell wrote:
>> 
>> When I receive a mickeysoft-word document attached to e-mail, if I
>> happen to feel like reading it instead of just deleting it, I save it
>> to a text file and then do a search for words like "the" in order to 
>> find out where the text is hidden.
> 
> The strings(1) command on unix boxen is useful for this. What it does is
> look for strings of printable characters in the file (the minimum length
> of the string is set by a command line option) and display them. OK, so
> it loses formatting and even newlines, etc, but it will find most of
> the text in a word processor file.
strings(1) also fails if the document is in French or any language that
uses accents.

I use mswordview to get the "content" of .doc files my clients insist on
e-mailing me.

-Philip

From yoda at isr.ist.utl.pt  Wed Oct  4 17:49:22 2000
From: yoda at isr.ist.utl.pt (Rodrigo Ventura)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: WANTED: (Xerox) ViewPoint Scavenger software
Message-ID: <874s2sdxxp.fsf@yodacity.local>


        I'd like to bring a Xerox DayBreak (6085) workstation back to
life, but I'm unable to do it because it requires a so called VP
Scavenging software. Can anyone send me an electronic version of the
disk/tape image containing such software?

        If anyone has at least Xerox 6085 software, in any form,
PLEASE contact me: maybe we could arrange a way to convert it to an
electronic format.

        Furthermore, if anyone has any bootable software for such a
beast, please contact me.

        Cheers,

-- 

*** Rodrigo Martins de Matos Ventura <yoda@isr.ist.utl.pt>
***  Web page: http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/~yoda
***   Teaching Assistant and PhD Student at ISR:
***    Instituto de Sistemas e Robotica, Polo de Lisboa
***     Instituto Superior Tecnico, Lisboa, PORTUGAL
*** PGP fingerprint = 0119 AD13 9EEE 264A 3F10  31D3 89B3 C6C4 60C6 4585

From jrasite at eoni.com  Wed Oct  4 18:17:33 2000
From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: Need SCSI interface for Microvax 3400
References: <200010022227.PAA14052@shell1.aracnet.com> <l03102808b6014f0ba950@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <39DBBA87.2BC3A606@eoni.com>

Which means that it will sell at 'fair market value'  just like most
everything else on ebay.  If you want it add about 20% to what it's
worth and bid away!

Jim

Mike Ford wrote:
> 
> >I beg to differ...  try:
> ><http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=452022321>
> >
> >Currently $10.
> 
> Gives me a chuckle everytime somebody thinks the bid value prior to closing
> means something. Currently $25 with 6 hrs to go.

From fmc at reanimators.org  Wed Oct  4 18:09:11 2000
From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: Console Servers (was: cluster stuff [was Re: Changing lo)
In-Reply-To: Eric Smith's message of "4 Oct 2000 22:11:33 -0000"
References: <200010042059.NAA23129@shell1.aracnet.com> <20001004221133.6176.qmail@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <200010042309.QAA11675@daemonweed.reanimators.org>

Eric Smith <eric@brouhaha.com> wrote:
> I've got several DECserver 200/MC boxes available for sale or trade.  No
> idea if they do reverse LAT (or, for that matter, normal forward LAT).

Yes, both.  Don't ask me how to set it up, though; it was over 10
years ago and on the other side of the continent, but I had one
providing print service using reverse LAT and I convinced another one
to provide access to an HP3000/70 via a serial connection to an ATP
port on the 3000.

You do need a MOP server from which the DECserver can download its 
software.

-Frank McConnell

From eric at brouhaha.com  Wed Oct  4 18:34:11 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: Console Servers (was: cluster stuff [was Re: Changing lo)
In-Reply-To: <200010042309.QAA11675@daemonweed.reanimators.org> (message from
	Frank McConnell on 04 Oct 2000 16:09:11 -0700)
References: <200010042059.NAA23129@shell1.aracnet.com> <20001004221133.6176.qmail@brouhaha.com> <200010042309.QAA11675@daemonweed.reanimators.org>
Message-ID: <20001004233411.7256.qmail@brouhaha.com>

I wrote:
> I've got several DECserver 200/MC boxes available for sale or trade.  No
> idea if they do reverse LAT (or, for that matter, normal forward LAT).

Frank McConnell <fmc@reanimators.org> wrote:
> Yes, both.
[...]
> You do need a MOP server from which the DECserver can download its 
> software.

Got a MOP server.  Where do I get the DECserver software?  Is it
available for download from Compaq, or am I expected to purcha$e it?

From healyzh at aracnet.com  Wed Oct  4 19:12:16 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: Console Servers (was: cluster stuff [was Re: Changing lo)
In-Reply-To: <20001004233411.7256.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Oct 04, 2000 11:34:11 PM
Message-ID: <200010050012.RAA11529@shell1.aracnet.com>

> I wrote:
> > I've got several DECserver 200/MC boxes available for sale or trade.  No
> > idea if they do reverse LAT (or, for that matter, normal forward LAT).
> 
> Frank McConnell <fmc@reanimators.org> wrote:
> > Yes, both.
> [...]
> > You do need a MOP server from which the DECserver can download its 
> > software.
> 
> Got a MOP server.  Where do I get the DECserver software?  Is it
> available for download from Compaq, or am I expected to purcha$e it?
> 

If you've got a VAX or Alpha OpenVMS ConDist you'll find it in there.  I do
not know if any licenses are required in order to get it to work.

			Zane

From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com  Wed Oct  4 19:34:59 2000
From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: Console Servers (was: cluster stuff [was Re: Changing lo)
In-Reply-To: <20001004233411.7256.qmail@brouhaha.com>
References: <200010042309.QAA11675@daemonweed.reanimators.org>
 <200010042059.NAA23129@shell1.aracnet.com>
 <20001004221133.6176.qmail@brouhaha.com>
 <200010042309.QAA11675@daemonweed.reanimators.org>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001004173432.00d32a00@208.226.86.10>

Its on the ConDist disks for VMS. Talk to me off line and we'll see what 
else is needed.
--Chuck

At 11:34 PM 10/4/00 +0000, you wrote:
>I wrote:
> > I've got several DECserver 200/MC boxes available for sale or trade.  No
> > idea if they do reverse LAT (or, for that matter, normal forward LAT).
>
>Frank McConnell <fmc@reanimators.org> wrote:
> > Yes, both.
>[...]
> > You do need a MOP server from which the DECserver can download its
> > software.
>
>Got a MOP server.  Where do I get the DECserver software?  Is it
>available for download from Compaq, or am I expected to purcha$e it?


From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com  Wed Oct  4 19:53:49 2000
From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: WTB/T: VLC drive mounting bracket?
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20001004175228.00af44c0@208.226.86.10>

I'm looking for two VAX 4000/VLC drive mounting brackets. I can trade a 
TZ50 tape drive or the bridge board from a TF86. (Or async multiplexor 
boards, either s-box or regular)
--Chuck



From dburrows at netpath.net  Wed Oct  4 19:52:13 2000
From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: Counterworks workstations
Message-ID: <01da01c02e66$cfbfa880$a652e780@L166>

Has anyone heard of them.  I have been sent a bid sheet that has 2 pallets
worth of them and hard drives.  Are they rebadged something's?
Is anyone interested in them?  I think they meet the 10 year rule by all the
PDP etc. related stuff that is also on the sheet.

Dan


From richard at idcomm.com  Wed Oct  4 20:33:01 2000
From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: CP/M BIOS setup
References: <002e01c02e54$de4f3f80$29109a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <003401c02e6c$33ff7820$0500fea9@winbook>

Hi Allison!

For some time, I've pondered what it might take to divine the various format
features from a CP/M boot disk.  It seems to me that if one has a bootable
disk, it has to have sufficient information on the boot tracks to allow one
to find a copy of the BDOS, which, so long as it's the right version of
CP/M, should disclose the details of what formatting has been used for those
tracks.  What's more, given that one can find the BDOS, byte for byte, one
should also be able to find enough of a BIOS to make it possible to extract
the necessary disk parameters used to boot the system.  If a second-tier
system is loade, one should be able to find that by examining the autcmd.
That should then yield the data necessary to read the diskette in its
entirety.

Have you ever run into a utility that handles this?  I'd think someone would
have done this by now.

Another item I've wanted for some time to automate is the setup of a hard
disk BIOS.  Since it's dependent not so much on CP/M quirks but often more
on decisions made on the basis of folklore, I thought it might be
interesting to examine the process as a candidate for automation.

What do you think?

regards,

Dick

----- Original Message -----
From: ajp166 <ajp166@bellatlantic.net>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: console multiplexor


> From: Chuck McManis <cmcmanis@mcmanis.com>
>
>
> >Clearly the simplest solution is a 6PnT rotary switch, some cables wired
> up
> >with MMJ plugs crimped on their ends. I'm planning to build one of these
> as
> >I have all the parts and that will get the console going on the
> micro-cluster.
>
>
> That would work if you assert RxD to spacing on disconnect.
>
> Me, I cheat.  I don't bother connecting a tube (unless required like
> during initial install)
> and when needed I use the VT1200 to connect via the net once that is up.
>
> >However, if you're willing to be really clever then you can do much
> better
> >than this. I've got a nice color terminal (the Link MC70 although its
> color
> >is a bit unstable these days :-() or I could use a DEC VT340 (probably
> the
> >actual version for display) and you could, with a bit of smarts and some
> >buffering take output from the RS-423 lines, and prior to forwarding
> them
> >on to the terminal you could inject ANSI color codes on/off. This would
> >make the output from each console a different color. (keeping them
> straight
> >is of course the challenge) If you are really clever you don't allow one
> >console to interrupt another mid-line either. I've got an old single
> board
> >Z80 system that could probably do this, or I could wimp out and use a
> CPLD
> >feeding a Scenix chip.
>
>
> Could be done with Vt125 or better yet....
>
> Like I used to do with a Vt320, the system write a status line (25th) in
> response to a simple request "@who" which runs a DCL script.  the
> request was stored as the "respones line" on the terminal or as a
> simple "w" [set W*ho="@who.com".   Also other defined commands
> terminate with a call to who.   The status line also has current
> directory
> and account. the switch box was a LQPX2-SW and MMJ to DB/P25
> cabling.
>
> Allison
>
>
>
>


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Wed Oct  4 21:54:49 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: CP/M BIOS setup
Message-ID: <00b501c02e77$a38e6ce0$29109a8d@ajp166>

From: Richard Erlacher <richard@idcomm.com>


>For some time, I've pondered what it might take to divine the various
format
>features from a CP/M boot disk.  It seems to me that if one has a
bootable
>disk, it has to have sufficient information on the boot tracks to allow
one
>to find a copy of the BDOS, which, so long as it's the right version of
>CP/M, should disclose the details of what formatting has been used for
those


The bdos can't tell you much other than it's version.

>tracks.  What's more, given that one can find the BDOS, byte for byte,
one
>should also be able to find enough of a BIOS to make it possible to
extract
>the necessary disk parameters used to boot the system.  If a second-tier
>system is loade, one should be able to find that by examining the
autcmd.
>That should then yield the data necessary to read the diskette in its
>entirety.

the key parameters are the DPH, DPB and SKEW... also you need to know
how big the sector is and if there is embedded skew within the sector.
Then you need to know the disk layout, things like what side/sector
numbering was used.  For example I've seen two sided media where
sector one occured on both sides and where identically formatted, also
I've seen side one as 1 thru 9 and side two as 10 through 17...

It is possible to devine all that from a bootable disk (I have a few that
would never give you that as the core bios is not on the disk at all)
but it's a lot of processing and at last count there were some 80 formats
for 5.25media alone.

>Have you ever run into a utility that handles this?  I'd think someone
would
>have done this by now.


Yes, Media Master, Uniform, Multidisk, Eset are a few I use and they all
work from tables and have expectations of a bios having a standard
configureation so they can "drive" the bios.

I also use a modular bios that runs on a slave cpu for the S100 crate
and dropping in different drive parameters is straightforward.  I tend to
treat
devices as interchangeable peices by using a abstraction layer.  To me
the
BDOS calls the BIOS and the BIOS if it needs to calls a device driver.
One
common misconception is the BDOS calls a FDC (simplification).  It doesnt
and that why the BDOS called the jump table at the start of the BIOS.

>Another item I've wanted for some time to automate is the setup of a
hard
>disk BIOS.  Since it's dependent not so much on CP/M quirks but often
more
>on decisions made on the basis of folklore, I thought it might be
>interesting to examine the process as a candidate for automation.


The answer is yes it;s doable and it's not worth it from where I sit.
One
reason, I have the tools needed and there are plenty of freeware
out there if I dont.

Me, I use my kaypro and my s100 crate (3.5, 5.25 and 8") for this and a
copy of multidisk (table driven) and a version of Eset, used to hand
feed parameters to the parameters for oddballs.  In the general scale
of things these do the job well and are more than enough. Some things
deserve a simple solution.

Allison


From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net  Thu Oct  5 00:32:22 2000
From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (Sue & Francois)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: VCF 4.0 - how was it?
References: <000601c02cbb$84981600$013da8c0@Corellian>
Message-ID: <001d01c02e8d$a35cac80$0264a8c0@mediaone.net>

Well lemme see...
It was my first attendance and I just loved the talks and meeting some of
the people I've been talking for over 4 years on this list. I missed some of
you but I had a limited time budget and had to get out at 5pm.Cold not make
it on sunday.
I wished we had a "hello my name is" meeting for the classiccmp people just
so that we can put a face on the names.
I was a little bit disappointed with the prices on some of the stuff in the
flea market and one seller's unwillingness to bargain for price. I am also
kinda mad at the guy who got the HP-71 from under my nose (I'm the one who
asked for it after all) I guess I'm too used to Midwestern prices and
Hamfest bargaining.
I still bagged a few interesting pieces though: most notably a ti 99/4A
thermal solid state printer that attaches to the side of the computer like
the speech synth or the memory expansion. An Apricot F10 fairly complete. A
very complete Atari Portfolio (I'm going to load VTLISP and use it for my AI
class). A Timex Sinclair 1500 in OK shape. A few miscs.
All in all it was a positive experience. I just wised I could have spent
more time getting to know some of you. Maybe next time.

Francois


> Anyone who attended care to share their impressions of it?  I didn't get
to
> attend this year.
>


From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Thu Oct  5 02:10:32 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
In-Reply-To: <00100423422602.13570@kronos>
References: <l03102801b6015ebf617f@[192.168.1.4]>
 <39DB851A.2EF93FAB@home.net> <l03102801b6015ebf617f@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <l03102802b601d91087ad@[192.168.1.4]>

>> My two favorites are;
>>
>> The user who complains about the computer running slow today.
>>
>> The "test" meltdown routine some guy left in DEC control system at a nuke
>> plant, and it ran during some demo.
>
>Please tell the stories, or am I the only one who doesn't know them?

Not a chance I could remember them, and a lot of the humor was being in
that huge room of fellow DEC people. The session track was I think called
war stories or some such, but it happened at all the DECUS events I
attended back in the 80's. This one consultant was a natural at telling
this type of story too.



From mrbill at mrbill.net  Thu Oct  5 03:24:07 2000
From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: Rewiring VAX 6000 for single-phase AC?
Message-ID: <20001005032407.W14347@mrbill.net>

Anybody have instructions/details on how to re-wire a VAX 6000's 
three-phase 115V AC power supply for 220V single phase?  The only
thing I've got so far with any information is this:

http://www.decvax.org/vax6000/power.txt

However, I cant find any way to get ahold of the author of the
text, who mentions:

"I you get a 6000 (or similar) machine let me know. I have worked out 
 a very elegant way to do the above mod which entails no soldering , 
 no disconnecting of joints etc , and can be put back to factory 
 standard in about 30 secs."

What I need, is that information - but the email is at least 4
years old and the addresses no longer current.  I've got a 
VAX 6000-410 here that I'd love to at least fire up and run
some diags on, and I cant do that till it will run on 220V
power....

Bill

-- 
Bill Bradford * KD5LQR
  mrbill@mrbill.net
    Austin, TX

From mrbill at mrbill.net  Thu Oct  5 03:39:35 2000
From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
In-Reply-To: <v04210101b6013f7c40d2@[10.2.0.84]>; from rivie@teraglobal.com on Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 02:16:49PM -0600
References: <200010041937.MAA18124@civic.hal.com> <v04210101b6013f7c40d2@[10.2.0.84]>
Message-ID: <20001005033935.X14347@mrbill.net>

On Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 02:16:49PM -0600, Roger Ivie wrote:
> Given that my last experience with FUBAR was only a
> couple of years ago on a VAX 6520, it certainly fits.

Speaking of which, I'm looking for any documentation I can
get for a VAX 6000-410.  I've got one of the user manuals,
but its in French. 8-)  So, promotional literature, user
manuals, a DEC handbook showing this model, etc, would
be nice to have along with it once I get it restored to
fully working condition.

Bill

-- 
Bill Bradford * KD5LQR
  mrbill@mrbill.net
    Austin, TX

From agraham at ccat.co.uk  Thu Oct  5 03:46:25 2000
From: agraham at ccat.co.uk (Adrian Graham)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
Message-ID: <00Oct5.094627bst.46096@gatekeeper.ccat.co.uk>

It was certainly featured a lot in the orange/grey walls as foo.bar for
filenames.....didn't they also use brer.bar as well?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Neil Cherry [mailto:ncherry@home.net]
> Sent: 04 October 2000 20:55
> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
> 
> 
> Bill Pechter wrote:
> > 
> > Damn...
> > 
> > I was with you right through the fubar line.
> > Spent too many hours troubleshooting flaky Unibus problems on
> > 11/780's with semi-fried Unibus or UBA's.
> > 
> > Hearing anyone decode the FUBAR makes me twitch.
> 
> Uhmm isn't the computer version Foo bar as in Foo bar blatz zam zow
> (I'm not sure about the last ones anymore). I once named a 3B2 310
> Foobar and thought nothing of it. Management came to me and 
> requested an
> explaination until they saw the spelling (I was on a support hotline, 
> fubar is a fact of life there).
> 
> -- 
> Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             
> ncherry@home.net
> http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
> http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
> http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				
> (SourceForge)
> 

From Henk.J.Stegeman at is.shell.com  Thu Oct  5 06:14:13 2000
From: Henk.J.Stegeman at is.shell.com (Stegeman, Henk HJ SSI-GREN)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: IBM System/360 model 30 doc.
Message-ID: <91F077611570D211B0B40008C7244B3304023551@LDMS6001>

Hi, 

I was lucky to buy a very nice operator panel of an old IBM S/360 model 30. 

I am now trying to rebuild this IBM S/360 model 30 (using this panel as a
base)
with modern TTL, EEPROM's IC's etc. 
With the current information I have, I was able to reconstruct about 50-60%
of 
it's logic diagrams. 

I am still searching for ANY customer engineering documentation of this old
IBM system, 
specially the small CE reference booklet for the model 30 and 
the Functional Maintenance Manual.
Anyone who can help me ???

I already have a copy of the 'Theory of Operations' and micro-code
flowcharts
manual. 


Regards,

Henk Stegeman, 
IBM collector
Phone: ++31-70-303 4513



From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Thu Oct  5 06:59:49 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: FUBAR and DW780
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB1B5@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>


> > > > Hearing anyone decode the FUBAR makes me twitch.
> > > 
> > > Uhmm isn't the computer version Foo bar as in Foo bar 
> blatz zam zow
> > 
> > On some models of VAX there's a hardware register that 
> stores (part of) 
> > the address of a Unibus cycle where the selected device failed to 
> > respond. This register is called, not suprisingly, the
> > 
> > Failed UniBus Address Register

This is certainly serendipitous, but not the origin of the epithet.

FUBAR dates at least to WWII; I read that in an article about tech
terms that we tend to think are recent inventions but which have
been around for a rather long time.

For example, while Grace Murray Hopper is credited with finding
an actual moth wedged in a relay in the Eniac 1 (thus "bug" in 
the system), the term "bug" has been found in the writings of
Thomas Edison, referring to a defect in a design.

"HAM", referring to amateur radio operators, is a 19th-century
invention; it was previously used to describe self-taught telegraph
operators. 

And "to hack" is supposedly an old Yiddish phrase that refers to
the making of furniture with an axe (and although a different usage,
"hack" has referred to taxis since they were horse-drawn in the
early 1800s).

And on and on...

regards,
-dq

From ainsinga at infomation.com  Thu Oct  5 07:43:13 2000
From: ainsinga at infomation.com (Aron Insinga)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: Old Agfa Scanners
References: <200010041337.IAA67173@opal.tseinc.com>
Message-ID: <39DC7761.DAA0DB83@infomation.com>

I have 2 old (maybe they fit your definition of classic, maybe not) b&w
or grayscale scanners -- Agfa Focus ('Focus S 800 GS') and Agfa Focus II
-- which I'd like to get rid of very soon and are available for the
first, best offer.  (0 is a perfectly good offer from a non-profit
group.)  They could be picked up in Andover, MA or Nashua, NH.  I don't
really want to pack and ship them; they're heavy and I'm not sure I
still have the carriage locking instructions (but I'll look).  They
worked when I last used them but I haven't powered them up in a
half-dozen or so years, since some release of OmniPage Pro dropped
support for them.  They have Centronics 50-pin SCSI connectors.  I used
to have a 68k MacOS driver for them, which Agfa would give away, but
their DOS/Windows? drivers were integrated into some software that they
sold (and I never got).  Reply directly via e-mail to
ainsinga@infomation.com.

From THETechnoid at home.com  Thu Oct  5 08:19:23 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
In-Reply-To: <200010042128.OAA18461@civic.hal.com>
Message-ID: <20001005131516.BXSQ6495.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

I recall from my service that Foobahr is the spelling and stands for
"F**ked up beyond all hope of Repair". Maybe thats just a SeaBee variant.

Another is :  Tarfu - Things are really F**ked up.

I didn't realize what foul mouths we had while I was in the Nav, but it
became apparent immediatly when I separated.....  Took a while to correct
my bad habit.  Seems like every third word was F**k.

Technoid


In <200010042128.OAA18461@civic.hal.com>, on 10/05/00 
   at 09:19 AM, Dwight Elvey <elvey@hal.com> said:

>Joe <rigdonj@intellistar.net> wrote:
>> At 12:37 PM 10/4/00 -0700, Dwight wrote:
>> >
>> >Hi
>> > Besides, what is wrong with "fouled up beyond all recognition"??
>> 
>>    Umm. You never were in the service were you? :-)
>> 
>>     Joe
>> 

>Hi Joe
> Yes, we used it differently when I was in the service.
>Everything was different then.
>Dwight


-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com  Thu Oct  5 09:23:53 2000
From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: FUBAR and DW780
Message-ID: <F157a2eiETjt64tUt4X0000c9b5@hotmail.com>

Uh, where in the Eniac might the relays be? I think you meant Mark I...

Will J
(now where are my car keys again?)
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.


From jwest at mppw.com  Thu Oct  5 09:30:15 2000
From: jwest at mppw.com (Jay West)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: classiccmp mailing list service  notice
Message-ID: <FKEMKLIGFCGFBBHAICOOKEPICHAA.jwest@mppw.com>

Greetings and salutations;

We're in the process of upgrading our mailservers, including the one that
hosts the classiccmp mailing list. We're building a new machine with a newer
version of the OS (FreeBSD 4.1), and a newer version of majordomo (1.94.5),
and then moving the services off the old one and onto the new one. Once
done, the hostname, ip address, and all identity of the old machine will be
taken over by the new machine (ie. no differences [we hope]).

We will do our best to ensure there are no service interruptions, but the
following issues are possible:

1) There may be some delays in list traffic during the upgrade
2) Once moved to the new system there may be some "features" that need to be
worked out
3) There may be delays in updating the mailing list archives at
www.classiccmp.org during the transition

Please email me with any problems you may notice to both jlwest@tseinc.com
and west@tseinc.com

Thanks!

Jay West



From richard at idcomm.com  Thu Oct  5 09:54:55 2000
From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: CP/M BIOS setup
References: <00b501c02e77$a38e6ce0$29109a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <001e01c02edc$3a411340$0500fea9@winbook>

I must have screwed up an put this out on the list.  I thought I had
modified the destination address . . . <sigh> another "senior moment."  It
might not be bad to kick this around among those who know.

Please see embedded remarks below.

Dick

----- Original Message -----
From: ajp166 <ajp166@bellatlantic.net>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 8:54 PM
Subject: Re: CP/M BIOS setup


> From: Richard Erlacher <richard@idcomm.com>
>
>
> >For some time, I've pondered what it might take to divine the various
> format
> >features from a CP/M boot disk.  It seems to me that if one has a
> bootable
> >disk, it has to have sufficient information on the boot tracks to allow
> one
> >to find a copy of the BDOS, which, so long as it's the right version of
> >CP/M, should disclose the details of what formatting has been used for
> those
>
>
> The bdos can't tell you much other than it's version.
>
I wasn't thinking so much about ASKING the BDOS as much as I was looking to
examine the thing in order to get the sector interleaving and skew data.
(skew being the relative position of the sector sequence from one track to
the adjacent ones.  The BDOS doesn't change, generally, though there may be
changes in the BIOS.  By finding each sector of the BDOS, one learns about
the format of the boot tracks.  My CCS system, for example, requires, at
least for the distributed boot EPROM, that the boot tracks be SSSD.  That
said, the write-up accompanying the controller suggests that one could make
a DD boot disk by formatting the boot tracks SD.  The rest of the diskette
could be formatted DD, whether single-  or double-sided.  Consequently, it's
necessary to reexamine the disk to see what the interleave (which DRI and
some people call skew), skew, sector size, modulation, and other parameters
for the remainder of the diskette are.  For that reason, it's necessary to
find a known file e.g. PIP.COM, or some other standard facility, which can
also be subjected to byte-by-byte comparison in order verify that the
parameters extracted from the diskette are valid.
>
> >tracks.  What's more, given that one can find the BDOS, byte for byte,
one
> >should also be able to find enough of a BIOS to make it possible to
extract
> >the necessary disk parameters used to boot the system.  If a second-tier
> >system is loade, one should be able to find that by examining the
autocmd.
> >That should then yield the data necessary to read the diskette in its
entirety.
>
> the key parameters are the DPH, DPB and SKEW... also you need to know
> how big the sector is and if there is embedded skew within the sector.
> Then you need to know the disk layout, things like what side/sector
> numbering was used.  For example I've seen two sided media where
> sector one occured on both sides and where identically formatted, also
> I've seen side one as 1 thru 9 and side two as 10 through 17...
>
These parameters are all there on a boot diskette.  It's just necessary to
find them.
>
> It is possible to devine all that from a bootable disk (I have a few that
> would never give you that as the core bios is not on the disk at all)
> but it's a lot of processing and at last count there were some 80 formats
> for 5.25media alone.
>
> >Have you ever run into a utility that handles this?  I'd think someone
> would
> >have done this by now.
>
>
> Yes, Media Master, Uniform, Multidisk, Eset are a few I use and they all
> work from tables and have expectations of a bios having a standard
> configureation so they can "drive" the bios.
>
The Multidisk and Eset that I have are not for this purpose.  They want to
be passed the information that I'm suggesting could be extracted.
>
> I also use a modular bios that runs on a slave cpu for the S100 crate
> and dropping in different drive parameters is straightforward.  I tend to
> treat devices as interchangeable peices by using a abstraction layer.
> To me the BDOS calls the BIOS and the BIOS if it needs to calls a
> device driver.  One common misconception is the BDOS calls a FDC
> (simplification).  It doesnt and that why the BDOS called the jump table
> at the start of the BIOS.
>
That's exactly the problem I'm trying to circumvent.  The interleave, skew,
sector size, etc, are all accurately represented on the boot diskette.  The
BDOS is the BDOS, i.e. shouldn't be different on different boot diskettes,
so long as the CP/M version is the same.  Consequently, it should be
possible, having once determined the sector size, to extract, automatically,
the relative locations of sequential sectors of this known file.  Since we
KNOW and RECOGNIZE the BDOS, shouldn't it be possible to find its beginning,
end, and intervening parts on the diskette?  It may not be an instantaneous
operation, but one should be able to conjure up a program to determine the
sector size, map physical to logica sector layout, and determine the
difference in sector numbering from one track to the next.  It is certainly
possible to compare what lies where the BDOS should lie with a valid copy of
the BDOS.  Likewise, having found the BDOS, extracting the various disk
paramters from the system BIOS and verifying them against another known file
e.g. PIP.COM, should provide the necessary information about the directory
and data areas of the diskette.  Isn't that so?
>
> >Another item I've wanted for some time to automate is the setup of a hard
> >disk BIOS.  Since it's dependent not so much on CP/M quirks but often
more
> >on decisions made on the basis of folklore, I thought it might be
> >interesting to examine the process as a candidate for automation.
>
> The answer is yes it;s doable and it's not worth it from where I sit.
> One reason, I have the tools needed and there are plenty of freeware
> out there if I dont.
>
> Me, I use my kaypro and my s100 crate (3.5, 5.25 and 8") for this and a
> copy of multidisk (table driven) and a version of Eset, used to hand
> feed parameters to the parameters for oddballs.  In the general scale
> of things these do the job well and are more than enough. Some things
> deserve a simple solution.
>
Well, I don't see hand-feeding a set of parameters that one has to determine
by guessing on the basis of lots of conflicting folklore as particularly
easy.  Authors who wrote about the process e.g. Laird and Cortesi seemed to
equivocate considerably about this, and, while it's straightforward to come
up with a set of parameters that work, it's not easy to come up with the
optimal ones, at least where the HD is concerned.  Both of the authors I
mention published utilities that extract parameters from the existing BIOS
once it's running, but neither discusses the whys and wherefores
sufficiently to imply a rigorous method of establishing a single, optimal,
layout for a HD.  Likewise, they don't provide a rigorous method for finding
the parameters in use on a system disk from a foreign system.  Once the data
is in hand, it's easy, certainly, but what should one do, given a known
bootable but otherwise undefined boot diskette?  The reality of the data
present on a boot diskette defines all the parameters necessary to recreate
it, doesn't it?

I get emails from people all the time, asking about how to build a boot
diskette for a system they can't boot because they don't have a BIOS on the
diskette for the I/O ports they use.  Likewise, I get frequent questions
about how to formulate an optimal configuration for a hard disk.  While it
may not be a terrible thing, it is something many people, including myself,
though I've done it several times, find daunting.  In the absence of a
rigorous method it's hard to find peace at the end of the task because so
many less-than optimal solutions will work quite well.  How's a person to
determine what's best?
>
> Allison
>
>


From at258 at osfn.org  Thu Oct  5 08:58:27 2000
From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: FUBAR and DW780
In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB1B5@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.1001005095707.16404A-100000@osfn.org>

On Thu, 5 Oct 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote:

> "HAM", referring to amateur radio operators, is a 19th-century
> invention; it was previously used to describe self-taught telegraph
> operators. 

I've seen references to old "ham-fisted" Morse operators.  I had never 
made the connexion.  thanks.

M. K. Peirce
Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc.
215 Shady Lea Road,
North Kingstown, RI 02852

"Casta est qui nemo rogavit."
              
              - Ovid


From lgwalker at look.ca  Thu Oct  5 13:10:13 2000
From: lgwalker at look.ca (Lawrence Walker)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: OT : What is this Monitor
Message-ID: <39DC6195.31740.BC1191@localhost>

 Don't quite know where else to ask this, my apologies for the OT.

I recently acquired an EZC m. sm483c monitor with a DB-9 socket 
( sorry I've forgotten Tony D.'s correct designation) Since it was 
manufactured in Jun 98 it's unlikely to be an EGA. The company
seems to be no longer in business and I could find little on it. 
 EZC appears to be a company that made items for the vision-
impaired so I expect this is some kind of high-definition monitor.
It powers up OK but I don't want to try it on one of my EGA cards  
or similar 9-pin boxes lest the magic smoke escapes. Anyone with 
any info/suggestions ?

ciao		larry

Reply to:
lgwalker@look.ca

From lgwalker at look.ca  Thu Oct  5 13:10:13 2000
From: lgwalker at look.ca (Lawrence Walker)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: Screeching 5 1/4 FDD
Message-ID: <39DC6195.5290.BC116E@localhost>

 I have a hard to replace dsdd floppy disk that produced a 
screeching noise while attempting to read it on a win98 box under 
Dos using  a Dos program. I quickly removed it and tried to read it 
on another Dos box also with a HDFDD. No screech but only the 
directory was readable, not the contents. I checked the original 
FDD again using a scrap dsdd floppy and had no trouble with it.
 Anyone have any thoughts as to what would have caused this ?
And whether the disk is salvageable ? I'm reluctant to run the disk 
again on any box till I explore the options, lest I damage it further.
 It was an old DRI PC-install master disk for GEM.

ciao		larry

Reply to:
lgwalker@look.ca

From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Thu Oct  5 12:14:03 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: FUBAR and DW780
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB1B8@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>

> Uh, where in the Eniac might the relays be? I think you meant 
> Mark I...

You are correct... she worked with both systems, the bug was indeed
found in relay #70 on the Mark I.

-dq

From foo at siconic.com  Thu Oct  5 11:16:13 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
In-Reply-To: <20001005131516.BXSQ6495.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010050914050.24275-100000@siconic.com>

On Thu, 5 Oct 2000 THETechnoid@home.com wrote:

> I recall from my service that Foobahr is the spelling and stands for
> "F**ked up beyond all hope of Repair". Maybe thats just a SeaBee variant.

Let's see here:

F = F**ked

...so far so good...

o = ... ?

Hmmm...

> I didn't realize what foul mouths we had while I was in the Nav, but it
> became apparent immediatly when I separated.....  Took a while to correct
> my bad habit.  Seems like every third word was F**k.

What's wrong with the "F" word?  Fuck is one of the most useful words in
the English language.

Sellam                                International Man of Intrigue and Danger
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...

                       VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
               San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
                    See http://www.vintage.org for details!



From Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu  Thu Oct  5 12:20:16 2000
From: Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu (Marion Bates)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: mac serial pinouts
Message-ID: <35457871@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU>

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From foo at siconic.com  Thu Oct  5 11:17:12 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: classiccmp mailing list service  notice
In-Reply-To: <FKEMKLIGFCGFBBHAICOOKEPICHAA.jwest@mppw.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010050916520.24275-100000@siconic.com>

On Thu, 5 Oct 2000, Jay West wrote:

> Please email me with any problems you may notice to both jlwest@tseinc.com
> and west@tseinc.com
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Jay West

Jay, just a word of thanks for continuing to host ClassicCmp.

YOU ARE THE MAN!!!

Sellam                                International Man of Intrigue and Danger
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...

                       VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
               San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
                    See http://www.vintage.org for details!



From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Thu Oct  5 12:30:02 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: FUBAR and DW780
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB1B9@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Will Jennings [mailto:xds_sigma7@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 10:24 AM
> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org
> Subject: RE: FUBAR and DW780
> 
> 
> Uh, where in the Eniac might the relays be? I think you meant 
> Mark I...
> 
> Will J
> (now where are my car keys again?)
> ______________________________________________________________
> ___________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at 
http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.

From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Thu Oct  5 12:31:37 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: FUBAR and DW780
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB1BA@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>

> Uh, where in the Eniac might the relays be? I think you meant 
> Mark I...

BTW, I would be surprised to find out that the Eniac didn't 
use relays for power distribution... Hell, even the IBM 716
Line Printer I used to have had them for that (it used 220v
3-phase to drive a dynamotor which in turn generated the
50vdc power that was then distributed to the 711 card reader
and perhaps other peripherals).

regards,
-dq

From mmcfadden at cmh.edu  Thu Oct  5 12:38:43 2000
From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
Message-ID: <E7AC96207335D411B1E7009027FC284906BD1D@EXCHANGE2>

mofo-isms
My brother-in-laws C-scow sailboat is sail number MO-4 otherwise known as
mofo.  mofo go slow or mofo no go

Mike
mmcfadden@cmh.edu


From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com  Thu Oct  5 12:51:47 2000
From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: FOOBAR vs FUBAR
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010050914050.24275-100000@siconic.com>
References: <20001005131516.BXSQ6495.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001005104313.02441b80@208.226.86.10>

I believe Stuart Levy weighs in on this discussion attributing the 
introduction of FOO and BAR into the computer lexicon as the standard name 
place holders used in MIT's computer classes. It was certainly in CS 
lectures where I was first introduced to the term. My father acknowledged 
the military version FUBAR as being a "mess" whereas "Tango Uniform" aka TU 
aka "Tits Up" indicated something was dead (as in "Roger flight, that bogey 
is Tango Uniform.")

For anyone who has taught computer science the utility is clear, you need a 
non-specific name to indicate a specific instance of a something and FOO is 
as good as any, the three names used at USC were FOO, BAR, and BLETCH. Some 
added BLATHER if they needed a fourth. This is similar to the 
cryptographer's calling the two parties in a secure conversation Alice and 
Bob. It is so much nicer than A and B.

Another feature of FOO was that it was difficult, even for foreign 
students, to get confused with other english words.

Finally, in discussing operating systems and such you need to change 
suffixes for the same program so you could say "Let's say you had a program 
FOO, its source code might be in FOO-dot-C and its object code would be 
compiled to FOO-dot-O, once linked it would be just FOO." pretty easy to 
talk about something when it has a name/handle.

--Chuck


From jimw at agora.rdrop.com  Thu Oct  5 13:17:29 2000
From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: VCF 4.0
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010050916520.24275-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.95.1001005111527.23670A-100000@agora.rdrop.com>


Thanks again to Sellam for throwing one heck of a party!

and yes...  to all of those that asked, I'll try to improve on the
'Special Effects' in the presentations for next year.   ;^}

-jim
---
jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174



From ncherry at home.net  Thu Oct  5 13:42:46 2000
From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: FOOBAR vs FUBAR
References: <20001005131516.BXSQ6495.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> <4.3.2.7.2.20001005104313.02441b80@208.226.86.10>
Message-ID: <39DCCBA6.CC5032EB@home.net>

Chuck McManis wrote:

> For anyone who has taught computer science the utility is clear, you need a
> non-specific name to indicate a specific instance of a something and FOO is
> as good as any, the three names used at USC were FOO, BAR, and BLETCH. Some
> added BLATHER if they needed a fourth. This is similar to the

Ah, that's what I was taught! I had previously learned the military version
from hanging around too many ex-military.

I use foo and bar on a daily basis, they are the names of files that I
can blow away on a whim and not worry about the contents. Knowing this I
never put anything that needs to be kept past the one reading/writing.

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Thu Oct  5 14:39:53 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: mac serial pinouts
In-Reply-To: <35457871@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU>
Message-ID: <l03102802b6028963c28c@[192.168.1.4]>

>Can anyone tell me which pins (and I don't know the numbering scheme, so
>please include that) are transmit, receive, and gnd on a Mac 8-pin
>mini-din port?

This apparently from the Zterm 0.9 manual

      Mac                   Modem
     DIN-8                  DB-25
  ============         =================
  1 (HSKout)    --->   4 (RTS) & 20 (DTR)
  2 (HSKin)     <---   5 (CTS)
  3 (TxD-)      --->   2 (TxD)
  4 (GND)       <-->   7 (Signal Ground)
  5 (RxD-)      <---   3 (RxD)
  6 (TxD+)      ----   NONE
  7 (GPi)       <---   8 (DCD)
  8 (RxD+)      <---   7 (Gnd)

Pin numbering (looking at the end of the plugs) is:

      Mac                   Modem
     DIN-8                  DB-25
  ============         =================
   6  7  8              1 ---------> 13
  3  4    5              14 ------> 25
    1   2

Note that Pins 4 =and= 20 on the DB-25 side are to be connected to Pin 1 on
the DIN-8 side.



From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Thu Oct  5 14:42:01 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010050914050.24275-100000@siconic.com>
References: <20001005131516.BXSQ6495.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>
Message-ID: <l03102803b60289abd38d@[192.168.1.4]>

>What's wrong with the "F" word?  Fuck is one of the most useful words in
>the English language.

Lets just say it wouldn't get any gravy passed to you at my mom's dinner table.

If your saying it isn't "dirty" I hope you know how much fun you are taking
out of using it.



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Oct  5 13:37:37 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: mac serial pinouts
In-Reply-To: <35457871@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> from "Marion Bates" at Oct 5, 0 01:20:16 pm
Message-ID: <m13hFtk-000IyHC@p850ug1>

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From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com  Thu Oct  5 14:36:54 2000
From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: Fix for Telnet bug in VMS TCPIP V5.0
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001005123319.00d63770@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>

Hello everyone, I realize that VMS 7.2 doesn't meet the 10 year rule but 
the hardware it is running on does :-)

To "close the loop" on this one, Zane pointed me to a recent fix posted by 
Compaq on their support site for TCPIP V5.0A. This update fixes a bunch of 
different bugs. My bug was the Telnet server went berserk when I tried to 
connect to it.

The problem is in the WILL/WANT negotiation that goes on gets screwed and 
ends up looping infinitely.

You can fix this by installing the TCPIP$TNDRIVER.EXE and TCPIP$TELNET.EXE 
images from the fix on top of an existing TCPIP 5.0 installation.

--Chuck


From foo at siconic.com  Thu Oct  5 13:46:33 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: VCF 4.0
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.95.1001005111527.23670A-100000@agora.rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010051141190.24515-100000@siconic.com>

On Thu, 5 Oct 2000, James Willing wrote:

> Thanks again to Sellam for throwing one heck of a party!

Thanks again to Jim for continuing in his role as "Official VCF Celebrity"
:)  How many interviews did you notch up this time?

Oh yeah, I owe you some batteries.  And thanks again for hauling down that
HP 9000 workstation.  Ever since Frank exhibited his at VCF 1.0, I have
suffered from HP 9000/520 envy.  Thanks to you, I have been cured of this
ailment :)

Sellam                                International Man of Intrigue and Danger
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...

                       VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
               San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
                    See http://www.vintage.org for details!




From foo at siconic.com  Thu Oct  5 13:48:24 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
In-Reply-To: <l03102803b60289abd38d@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010051147350.24523-100000@siconic.com>

On Thu, 5 Oct 2000, Mike Ford wrote:

> >What's wrong with the "F" word?  Fuck is one of the most useful words in
> >the English language.
> 
> Lets just say it wouldn't get any gravy passed to you at my mom's dinner table.
> 
> If your saying it isn't "dirty" I hope you know how much fun you are taking
> out of using it.

The way I see it, it's supposedly an "adult" word.  So if you're an adult
and don't use it on at least a regular basis, you have some growing up to
do.

Sellam                                International Man of Intrigue and Danger
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...

                       VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
               San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
                    See http://www.vintage.org for details!



From jim at calico.litterbox.com  Thu Oct  5 15:04:14 2000
From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010051147350.24523-100000@siconic.com> from "Sellam Ismail" at Oct 05, 2000 11:48:24 AM
Message-ID: <200010052004.OAA11068@calico.litterbox.com>

> The way I see it, it's supposedly an "adult" word.  So if you're an adult
> and don't use it on at least a regular basis, you have some growing up to
> do.
> 
> Sellam                                International Man of Intrigue and Danger

The danger lies in overuse.  Already the word has lost much of its impact 
because for some people, it's a verb, an adjective, and a noun, and they seem
to know and use few others.  Example:  I was watching BubbleGum Crisis 2040
- been following the series as it's released on video tape - and when, for the
first time in the dub, Cyllia, the leader says "Oh FUCK" you knew everyone
was in serious serious trouble.  And it was 17 episodes into the series.  

See?

-Jim



-- 
Jim Strickland
jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
                              BeOS Powered!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

From THETechnoid at home.com  Thu Oct  5 15:21:57 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: Screeching 5 1/4 FDD
In-Reply-To: <39DC6195.5290.BC116E@localhost>
Message-ID: <20001005201655.VPBJ6495.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

I'd bet the oxide is coming free of the substrate and causing the
screeching sound. That is just surmise.

I spent about a week rejuvinating a 9track tape that was doing something
similar.  I kept cleaning the heads and running the tape through the drive
while holding alcohol soaked chemwipes to the tape surface.  I'm unsure if
you can clean a floppy this way or not.

Jeff





In <39DC6195.5290.BC116E@localhost>, on 10/05/00 
   at 04:21 PM, "Lawrence Walker" <lgwalker@look.ca> said:

> I have a hard to replace dsdd floppy disk that produced a 
>screeching noise while attempting to read it on a win98 box under  Dos
>using  a Dos program. I quickly removed it and tried to read it  on
>another Dos box also with a HDFDD. No screech but only the  directory was
>readable, not the contents. I checked the original  FDD again using a
>scrap dsdd floppy and had no trouble with it.
> Anyone have any thoughts as to what would have caused this ? And whether
>the disk is salvageable ? I'm reluctant to run the disk  again on any box
>till I explore the options, lest I damage it further.
> It was an old DRI PC-install master disk for GEM.

>ciao		larry

>Reply to:
>lgwalker@look.ca

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu  Thu Oct  5 15:18:11 2000
From: Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu (Marion Bates)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: mac serial pinouts
Message-ID: <35467738@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU>

Thanks for the replies! Got it working.

-- MB

From THETechnoid at home.com  Thu Oct  5 15:26:25 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: FUBAR and DW780
In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB1B5@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>
Message-ID: <20001005202126.VVJX6495.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

Hey, that is pretty interesting!  The mention of making something with an
axe reminded me of the unofficial Seabee motto:


"Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with a grease pencil, cut it with
an axe".

Another is:

"We have done so much with so little for so long that soon we will be able
to do everything with nothing forever".


v/r

Jeff

In <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB1B5@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>, on
10/05/00 
   at 04:26 PM, Douglas Quebbeman <dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com>
said:

>And "to hack" is supposedly an old Yiddish phrase that refers to the
>making of furniture with an axe (and although a different usage, "hack"
>has referred to taxis since they were horse-drawn in the early 1800s).

>And on and on...

>regards,
>-dq

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From THETechnoid at home.com  Thu Oct  5 15:30:17 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: OT : What is this Monitor
In-Reply-To: <39DC6195.31740.BC1191@localhost>
Message-ID: <20001005202302.VXLH6495.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

I'd bet it is an SVGA monitor that uses an DB9 to DB15hd cable.





In <39DC6195.31740.BC1191@localhost>, on 10/05/00 
   at 04:30 PM, "Lawrence Walker" <lgwalker@look.ca> said:

> Don't quite know where else to ask this, my apologies for the OT.

>I recently acquired an EZC m. sm483c monitor with a DB-9 socket  ( sorry
>I've forgotten Tony D.'s correct designation) Since it was  manufactured
>in Jun 98 it's unlikely to be an EGA. The company seems to be no longer
>in business and I could find little on it. 
> EZC appears to be a company that made items for the vision-
>impaired so I expect this is some kind of high-definition monitor. It
>powers up OK but I don't want to try it on one of my EGA cards   or
>similar 9-pin boxes lest the magic smoke escapes. Anyone with  any
>info/suggestions ?

>ciao		larry

>Reply to:
>lgwalker@look.ca

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From THETechnoid at home.com  Thu Oct  5 15:33:39 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:46 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010050914050.24275-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <20001005203018.WFQM6495.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

After my stress-induced tirade on the list last week, I guess I'm being
careful not to offend....

I meant Fubahr....

You can get some real beuts from Dick Marcinko's 'Rogue Warrior' series of
books.  

v/r

Jeff



In <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010050914050.24275-100000@siconic.com>, on 10/05/00 
   at 04:33 PM, Sellam Ismail <foo@siconic.com> said:

>On Thu, 5 Oct 2000 THETechnoid@home.com wrote:

>> I recall from my service that Foobahr is the spelling and stands for
>> "F**ked up beyond all hope of Repair". Maybe thats just a SeaBee variant.

>Let's see here:

>F = F**ked

>...so far so good...

>o = ... ?

>Hmmm...

>> I didn't realize what foul mouths we had while I was in the Nav, but it
>> became apparent immediatly when I separated.....  Took a while to correct
>> my bad habit.  Seems like every third word was F**k.

>What's wrong with the "F" word?  Fuck is one of the most useful words in
>the English language.

>Sellam                                International Man of Intrigue and
>Danger
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Looking for a six in a pile of nines...

>                       VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
>               San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
>                    See http://www.vintage.org for details!



-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From donm at cts.com  Thu Oct  5 15:31:28 2000
From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: CP/M BIOS setup
In-Reply-To: <001e01c02edc$3a411340$0500fea9@winbook>
Message-ID: <Pine.SCO.4.20.0010051328220.6246-100000@crash.cts.com>



On Thu, 5 Oct 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote:

> I must have screwed up an put this out on the list.  I thought I had
> modified the destination address . . . <sigh> another "senior moment."  It
> might not be bad to kick this around among those who know.
> 
> Please see embedded remarks below.
> 
> Dick

I am reminded that the Kaypro program MFDISK - a sort of mini-UniForm -
had a feature that took a 'guess' at what format the foreign disk in the
drive was.  It wasn't always right, and its choices were somewhat
limited, but it would be interesting to see how they approached it.  

						 - don 

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: ajp166 <ajp166@bellatlantic.net>
> To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 8:54 PM
> Subject: Re: CP/M BIOS setup
> 
> 
> > From: Richard Erlacher <richard@idcomm.com>
> >
> >
> > >For some time, I've pondered what it might take to divine the various
> > format
> > >features from a CP/M boot disk.  It seems to me that if one has a
> > bootable
> > >disk, it has to have sufficient information on the boot tracks to allow
> > one
> > >to find a copy of the BDOS, which, so long as it's the right version of
> > >CP/M, should disclose the details of what formatting has been used for
> > those
> >
> >
> > The bdos can't tell you much other than it's version.
> >
> I wasn't thinking so much about ASKING the BDOS as much as I was looking to
> examine the thing in order to get the sector interleaving and skew data.
> (skew being the relative position of the sector sequence from one track to
> the adjacent ones.  The BDOS doesn't change, generally, though there may be
> changes in the BIOS.  By finding each sector of the BDOS, one learns about
> the format of the boot tracks.  My CCS system, for example, requires, at
> least for the distributed boot EPROM, that the boot tracks be SSSD.  That
> said, the write-up accompanying the controller suggests that one could make
> a DD boot disk by formatting the boot tracks SD.  The rest of the diskette
> could be formatted DD, whether single-  or double-sided.  Consequently, it's
> necessary to reexamine the disk to see what the interleave (which DRI and
> some people call skew), skew, sector size, modulation, and other parameters
> for the remainder of the diskette are.  For that reason, it's necessary to
> find a known file e.g. PIP.COM, or some other standard facility, which can
> also be subjected to byte-by-byte comparison in order verify that the
> parameters extracted from the diskette are valid.
> >
> > >tracks.  What's more, given that one can find the BDOS, byte for byte,
> one
> > >should also be able to find enough of a BIOS to make it possible to
> extract
> > >the necessary disk parameters used to boot the system.  If a second-tier
> > >system is loade, one should be able to find that by examining the
> autocmd.
> > >That should then yield the data necessary to read the diskette in its
> entirety.
> >
> > the key parameters are the DPH, DPB and SKEW... also you need to know
> > how big the sector is and if there is embedded skew within the sector.
> > Then you need to know the disk layout, things like what side/sector
> > numbering was used.  For example I've seen two sided media where
> > sector one occured on both sides and where identically formatted, also
> > I've seen side one as 1 thru 9 and side two as 10 through 17...
> >
> These parameters are all there on a boot diskette.  It's just necessary to
> find them.
> >
> > It is possible to devine all that from a bootable disk (I have a few that
> > would never give you that as the core bios is not on the disk at all)
> > but it's a lot of processing and at last count there were some 80 formats
> > for 5.25media alone.
> >
> > >Have you ever run into a utility that handles this?  I'd think someone
> > would
> > >have done this by now.
> >
> >
> > Yes, Media Master, Uniform, Multidisk, Eset are a few I use and they all
> > work from tables and have expectations of a bios having a standard
> > configureation so they can "drive" the bios.
> >
> The Multidisk and Eset that I have are not for this purpose.  They want to
> be passed the information that I'm suggesting could be extracted.
> >
> > I also use a modular bios that runs on a slave cpu for the S100 crate
> > and dropping in different drive parameters is straightforward.  I tend to
> > treat devices as interchangeable peices by using a abstraction layer.
> > To me the BDOS calls the BIOS and the BIOS if it needs to calls a
> > device driver.  One common misconception is the BDOS calls a FDC
> > (simplification).  It doesnt and that why the BDOS called the jump table
> > at the start of the BIOS.
> >
> That's exactly the problem I'm trying to circumvent.  The interleave, skew,
> sector size, etc, are all accurately represented on the boot diskette.  The
> BDOS is the BDOS, i.e. shouldn't be different on different boot diskettes,
> so long as the CP/M version is the same.  Consequently, it should be
> possible, having once determined the sector size, to extract, automatically,
> the relative locations of sequential sectors of this known file.  Since we
> KNOW and RECOGNIZE the BDOS, shouldn't it be possible to find its beginning,
> end, and intervening parts on the diskette?  It may not be an instantaneous
> operation, but one should be able to conjure up a program to determine the
> sector size, map physical to logica sector layout, and determine the
> difference in sector numbering from one track to the next.  It is certainly
> possible to compare what lies where the BDOS should lie with a valid copy of
> the BDOS.  Likewise, having found the BDOS, extracting the various disk
> paramters from the system BIOS and verifying them against another known file
> e.g. PIP.COM, should provide the necessary information about the directory
> and data areas of the diskette.  Isn't that so?
> >
> > >Another item I've wanted for some time to automate is the setup of a hard
> > >disk BIOS.  Since it's dependent not so much on CP/M quirks but often
> more
> > >on decisions made on the basis of folklore, I thought it might be
> > >interesting to examine the process as a candidate for automation.
> >
> > The answer is yes it;s doable and it's not worth it from where I sit.
> > One reason, I have the tools needed and there are plenty of freeware
> > out there if I dont.
> >
> > Me, I use my kaypro and my s100 crate (3.5, 5.25 and 8") for this and a
> > copy of multidisk (table driven) and a version of Eset, used to hand
> > feed parameters to the parameters for oddballs.  In the general scale
> > of things these do the job well and are more than enough. Some things
> > deserve a simple solution.
> >
> Well, I don't see hand-feeding a set of parameters that one has to determine
> by guessing on the basis of lots of conflicting folklore as particularly
> easy.  Authors who wrote about the process e.g. Laird and Cortesi seemed to
> equivocate considerably about this, and, while it's straightforward to come
> up with a set of parameters that work, it's not easy to come up with the
> optimal ones, at least where the HD is concerned.  Both of the authors I
> mention published utilities that extract parameters from the existing BIOS
> once it's running, but neither discusses the whys and wherefores
> sufficiently to imply a rigorous method of establishing a single, optimal,
> layout for a HD.  Likewise, they don't provide a rigorous method for finding
> the parameters in use on a system disk from a foreign system.  Once the data
> is in hand, it's easy, certainly, but what should one do, given a known
> bootable but otherwise undefined boot diskette?  The reality of the data
> present on a boot diskette defines all the parameters necessary to recreate
> it, doesn't it?
> 
> I get emails from people all the time, asking about how to build a boot
> diskette for a system they can't boot because they don't have a BIOS on the
> diskette for the I/O ports they use.  Likewise, I get frequent questions
> about how to formulate an optimal configuration for a hard disk.  While it
> may not be a terrible thing, it is something many people, including myself,
> though I've done it several times, find daunting.  In the absence of a
> rigorous method it's hard to find peace at the end of the task because so
> many less-than optimal solutions will work quite well.  How's a person to
> determine what's best?
> >
> > Allison
> >
> >
> 
> 


From THETechnoid at home.com  Thu Oct  5 15:39:59 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: VCF 4.0
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010051141190.24515-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <20001005203431.WKPX6495.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

How can I get the VCF to hold it's event a bit closer to the East Coast
than California?  I wanted to go, but a 3500mile trek was out of the
question.  How about Montana or the Dakotas?

jeff


-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From donm at cts.com  Thu Oct  5 15:40:29 2000
From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: Screeching 5 1/4 FDD
In-Reply-To: <39DC6195.5290.BC116E@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.SCO.4.20.0010051335070.6246-100000@crash.cts.com>



On Thu, 5 Oct 2000, Lawrence Walker wrote:

>  I have a hard to replace dsdd floppy disk that produced a 
> screeching noise while attempting to read it on a win98 box under 
> Dos using  a Dos program. I quickly removed it and tried to read it 
> on another Dos box also with a HDFDD. No screech but only the 
> directory was readable, not the contents. I checked the original 
> FDD again using a scrap dsdd floppy and had no trouble with it.
>  Anyone have any thoughts as to what would have caused this ?

Whenever I have heard that horrid squeal, it has been followed with the
disappearance of the magnetic media on a track or cylinder. :{  

> And whether the disk is salvageable ? I'm reluctant to run the disk 
> again on any box till I explore the options, lest I damage it further.
>  It was an old DRI PC-install master disk for GEM.

The first thing that you want to do as make several image copies of the
disk on a drive with known clean heads and using a utility such as 
AnaDisk that will make a track-by-track copy of it.  Then work on a
copy!
						 - don
 
> ciao		larry
> 
> Reply to:
> lgwalker@look.ca
> 


From donm at cts.com  Thu Oct  5 15:42:53 2000
From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: OT : What is this Monitor
In-Reply-To: <39DC6195.31740.BC1191@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.SCO.4.20.0010051341500.6246-100000@crash.cts.com>



On Thu, 5 Oct 2000, Lawrence Walker wrote:

>  Don't quite know where else to ask this, my apologies for the OT.
> 
> I recently acquired an EZC m. sm483c monitor with a DB-9 socket 
> ( sorry I've forgotten Tony D.'s correct designation) Since it was 
> manufactured in Jun 98 it's unlikely to be an EGA. The company
> seems to be no longer in business and I could find little on it. 
>  EZC appears to be a company that made items for the vision-
> impaired so I expect this is some kind of high-definition monitor.
> It powers up OK but I don't want to try it on one of my EGA cards  
> or similar 9-pin boxes lest the magic smoke escapes. Anyone with 
> any info/suggestions ?

If it lacks obvious color adjustments - knob or screwdriver - it is
probably mono.  
						 - don

> 
> ciao		larry
> 
> Reply to:
> lgwalker@look.ca
> 


From THETechnoid at home.com  Thu Oct  5 16:22:46 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: CP/M BIOS setup
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SCO.4.20.0010051328220.6246-100000@crash.cts.com>
Message-ID: <20001005211634.YMUX6495.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

On the SWP ATR8000/ATR8500 there is a program called "Diskdef II" that has
80 or more disk formats you can select from.  The only limitation is it
will not format these, only read/write.  It will read a peice of paper. 
Lists everything from Amp?? to Zorba.

v/r
jeff

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From doug at blinkenlights.com  Thu Oct  5 16:26:11 2000
From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: FOOBAR vs FUBAR
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001005104313.02441b80@208.226.86.10>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010051724350.32734-100000@planetdoug.com>

On Thu, 5 Oct 2000, Chuck McManis wrote:

> For anyone who has taught computer science the utility is clear, you need a 
> non-specific name to indicate a specific instance of a something and FOO is 
> as good as any, the three names used at USC were FOO, BAR, and BLETCH.

That's USC for you; everybody knows the three canonical names are foo,
bar, and baz.

-- Doug


From foxvideo at wincom.net  Thu Oct  5 16:34:42 2000
From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: OT : What is this Monitor
In-Reply-To: <39DC6195.31740.BC1191@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20001005172830.009daeb0@mail.wincom.net>

At 11:10 AM 10/5/2000 -0700, you wrote:
>  Don't quite know where else to ask this, my apologies for the OT.
>
>I recently acquired an EZC m. sm483c monitor with a DB-9 socket
>( sorry I've forgotten Tony D.'s correct designation) Since it was
>manufactured in Jun 98 it's unlikely to be an EGA. The company
>seems to be no longer in business and I could find little on it.
>  EZC appears to be a company that made items for the vision-
>impaired so I expect this is some kind of high-definition monitor.
>It powers up OK but I don't want to try it on one of my EGA cards
>or similar 9-pin boxes lest the magic smoke escapes. Anyone with
>any info/suggestions ?
>
>ciao            larry
>
>Reply to:
>lgwalker@look.ca

Hi, Larry:
         If it is colour it could be VGA. I have three or four 
multisync  monitors that use a 9 pin male to 15 pin male cable. Also I have 
a 9 pin to 15 pin adapter.  If things get desperate I will try to check the 
pin outs.

                                         Regards
                                         Charlie Fox


                                 Charles E. Fox
                         Chas E. Fox Video Productions
                 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ontario Canada
                 (519)254-4991, Fax (519)256-3388 foxvideo@wincom.net
                 Check out: The Old Walkerville Virtual Museum at
                 http://skyboom.com/foxvideo  and  Camcorder Kindergarten at
                         http://chasfoxvideo.com


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Oct  5 19:03:55 2000
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: CP/M BIOS setup
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SCO.4.20.0010051328220.6246-100000@crash.cts.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010051646400.9330-100000@lanshark.lanminds.com>

> I am reminded that the Kaypro program MFDISK - a sort of mini-UniForm -
> had a feature that took a 'guess' at what format the foreign disk in the
> drive was.  It wasn't always right, and its choices were somewhat
> limited, but it would be interesting to see how they approached it.  

Format selection assistance is not new.
Howard Fulmer of Morrow was attempting to add that in to the multiple
format capability of the Morrow machines.


XenoCopy-PC has/had an undocumented capability: in the format selection
menu, it could be asked to look at the alien disk.  It would then
"gray-out" physically different formats.  Specifically, it would look at
number of sides, bytes per sector, and sectors per track. It remained
undocumented because it was OFTEN unacceptably wrong.  There were a
surprisingly large number of diskettes that were FORMATTED both sides but
only used one side, or had more formatted sectors than were used! (8
sectors per track, but 9 sectors per track formatted!) 

There are a number of other parameters that are not feasable (although not
necessarily impossible) to automatically sense, including side-PATTERN,
skew/interleave, number of reserved tracks, records per block, etc.


There were also a few problems with unreasonable expectations - there were
a few customers who expected the format selection assistance to render
possible formats that were otherwise physically impossible for the PC
hardware to do.  There were even some folk who were ADAMENT that Apple ][
diskettes could be read by the PC, since they were the same diameter and
turned at 300RPM, and that therefore we were part of some sort of
CONSPIRACY to prevent the conversion.

--
Fred Cisin                      cisin@xenosoft.com
XenoSoft                        http://www.xenosoft.com
PO Box 1236                     (510) 558-9366
Berkeley, CA 94701-1236


From foo at siconic.com  Thu Oct  5 18:00:06 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: VCF 4.0
In-Reply-To: <20001005203431.WKPX6495.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010051557260.24937-100000@siconic.com>

On Thu, 5 Oct 2000 THETechnoid@home.com wrote:

> How can I get the VCF to hold it's event a bit closer to the East Coast
> than California?  I wanted to go, but a 3500mile trek was out of the
> question.  How about Montana or the Dakotas?

Keep making noise.  We started looking in to doing a VCF East this year
and it's been on my mind for the past couple years, but it's a lot of work
as you may imagine, and now that VCF Europe is in the Spring we have to
plan it either right after or right before (when the weather isn't too
terrible).

Once I'm fully recovered from VCF 4.0 and have my day job project well
under way, then I'll start giving serious consideration to a VCF East.  I
think 2001 will almost certainly see some sort of east coast VCF event.

So stay tuned.

Sellam                                International Man of Intrigue and Danger
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...

                       VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
               San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
                    See http://www.vintage.org for details!



From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Thu Oct  5 19:13:30 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: CP/M BIOS setup
Message-ID: <007f01c02f2b$45aa6cf0$6d0f9a8d@ajp166>

>the adjacent ones.  The BDOS doesn't change, generally, though there may
be
>changes in the BIOS.  By finding each sector of the BDOS, one learns
about
>the format of the boot tracks.  My CCS system, for example, requires, at
>least for the distributed boot EPROM, that the boot tracks be SSSD.
That


I have a fully documented CCS and it clasifies as the early basic CP/M
bios
of low to average functionality.  It's robust but closer to a minimal
example.

>> the key parameters are the DPH, DPB and SKEW... also you need to know
>> how big the sector is and if there is embedded skew within the sector.
>> Then you need to know the disk layout, things like what side/sector
>> numbering was used.  For example I've seen two sided media where
>> sector one occured on both sides and where identically formatted, also
>> I've seen side one as 1 thru 9 and side two as 10 through 17...
>>
>These parameters are all there on a boot diskette.  It's just necessary
to
>find them.


Not all and they may be very hard to find.  DPH, DPB  ahve pointers to
them as a result of the BIOS call to Seldisk.  The SKEW however may
not be used in the SECTRAN call at all!  Often the skew translate is
a table but it can be calculated and for DD the SECTRAN call is applied
at the logical sector level and doesn't apply well for double density who
have sector sizes larger than one logical sector.  So skew in that case
will likely be burried in the raw read/write routine.  Or possibly even
at the logical sector level inside the the physical sector.

So wome things are not guarenteed and also not easily found.

>The Multidisk and Eset that I have are not for this purpose.  They want
to
>be passed the information that I'm suggesting could be extracted.


Oh like I said I can be... but if you know it's easier as even with 33mhz
z180 your going to flog a while getting to the same answer.

>That's exactly the problem I'm trying to circumvent.  The interleave,
skew,
>sector size, etc, are all accurately represented on the boot diskette.
The


Ah, no.  Most boot sectors are not skewed and like you observed may
not be the same density or sector size.

>BDOS is the BDOS, i.e. shouldn't be different on different boot
diskettes,


Likely but not always true.

>so long as the CP/M version is the same.  Consequently, it should be

There were patches and the CP/M version can be misleading.  Many of the
clones use base 2.2 ID so apps will run normally, most all are written
using
z80 unique instructions where DRI used only 8080.

>possible, having once determined the sector size, to extract,
automatically,
>the relative locations of sequential sectors of this known file.  Since
we
>KNOW and RECOGNIZE the BDOS, shouldn't it be possible to find its
beginning,


BDOS is not part of the CP/M file system!  It's in the boot tracks.

>paramters from the system BIOS and verifying them against another known
file
>e.g. PIP.COM, should provide the necessary information about the
directory
>and data areas of the diskette.  Isn't that so?


You would be forced to do that and huristically that will be a PITA!  PIP
is
in the file system whereas BDOS is out on the boot tracks.  the boot
tracks
in the CCS case is SSSD and the system tracks can be DSDD!  The bios
entries for DPH, DPB do not say if the disk is DSDD or even if it's
floppy.
It will tell you how many logical sectors per track, If skew is used. If
directory
is checked, allocation size and the size of the area used ofr data
storage.
You will have to figure out from that a lot of things that are variable
and can
still end up as the same answer.

>> >Another item I've wanted for some time to automate is the setup of a
hard
>> >disk BIOS.  Since it's dependent not so much on CP/M quirks but often
>more
>> >on decisions made on the basis of folklore, I thought it might be
>> >interesting to examine the process as a candidate for automation.


it's been done but the usual is to hook the disk IO routine and lod a
mini
hard disk bios in high memory.  Teltek, Konan and a few others did that.
A better way is to provide slots that can be filled with an address of
the
driver(s).    The reason for the difficulty is the wide assortment of
controllers and the varied protocals to talk to them.  If it was always
IDE
or SCSI it would be simpler.

>Well, I don't see hand-feeding a set of parameters that one has to
determine
>by guessing on the basis of lots of conflicting folklore as particularly
>easy.  Authors who wrote about the process e.g. Laird and Cortesi seemed
to


No folklore.  There are detailed tables out there for every drive and
disk going
if one care to look.  What do you think Multidisk does/is?

>equivocate considerably about this, and, while it's straightforward to
come
>up with a set of parameters that work, it's not easy to come up with the
>optimal ones, at least where the HD is concerned.  Both of the authors I

Optimal ones for hard disk in the timeframe they wrote in was simple.
hard disks are FAST and Z80s (pre 1990) are NOT.  No amount of
optimization is possible.  Actually if you have banked memory caching
is the solution as it steps neatly around the problems.  FYI: the
problem is that CP/M does a lot of realatively small transfer with
lots of references to the directory. the true limiter to performance is
not data rate but latency (mostly from shuffling the head).  When Laird
wrote a fast drive was a Quantum D540(31mb MFM 5.25 FH) with a
average latency of around 30mS.

>is in hand, it's easy, certainly, but what should one do, given a known
>bootable but otherwise undefined boot diskette?  The reality of the data
>present on a boot diskette defines all the parameters necessary to
recreate
>it, doesn't it?


No.  the boot tracks are always written by a specialized utility like
SYSGEN
(which is not generic code) that is always system specific.

>I get emails from people all the time, asking about how to build a boot
>diskette for a system they can't boot because they don't have a BIOS on
the
>diskette for the I/O ports they use.

Most of those I converse with with that set of questions have no sources
to
work from and find 8080 or Z80 asm code scary to terrifying.  Often they
dont
know the ports in use nor what they mean.  Rare is the one with Docs for
their
system at the time the question is launched.  They often think it's just
like a
PC where dos boots on all if the disk fits.

>Likewise, I get frequent questions
>about how to formulate an optimal configuration for a hard disk.  While
it


Like Laird said and I'll say _optimal_ for what?  I"d never use the word
optimal.
Again, expereince most want a drop in replacement like a PC.  Most do not
code at that level or dont wish to try.  Many dont have docs needed.  So
what
they want is not optimal, just something that works.

>may not be a terrible thing, it is something many people, including
myself,
>though I've done it several times, find daunting.  In the absence of a
>rigorous method it's hard to find peace at the end of the task because
so
>many less-than optimal solutions will work quite well.  How's a person
to
>determine what's best?


Lesse,  I have five systems with hard disks all were added later two with
code supplied.  I find peace with the fact that they work and are
reliable.
Only one have I applied rigorous and experimental methods to the extreme
to see what was possible and effective... Occams razor won most often.

Here it is: hard disks and performance.  Assume nothing about the hard
disk used rare is the old drive/controller that can really help you.  DMA
or a seperate  processor will help if the CPU is loaded or memory is
short.
Caching at the track or cylinder level with a LRU method really helps if
you have space (64-128k is good).  You will cache(call it host buffer if
you like) anyway as most hard disk have sector sizes larger than 128
bytes requireing deblocking. Caching the directory seperate from
the data area cache really pays as it saves head thrashing.  Achieve the

above or subset with direct and efficient code.

I've tried this using a IDE drive (still working the code out) and most
decent over 100mb drive have caching (quantum PRO AT series does).
use it as it isolates you from things like skew and all.

If you using a an old SA4000, forget all this as making it work is
three quarters the battle.

Allison



From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Thu Oct  5 21:29:03 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: ASCI u68 System X computer
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001005212903.441f0dc2@mailhost.intellistar.net>

   Does anyone know anything about the computer above? They appear to be
educational single board computers. A strip along the frond edge, lists a
number of commands to set breakpoints, jump in memory, examine memory, etc.
I found a pile of them at an auction preview. They're single board
computers that are mounted in a wooden boxs that measures roughly 10" x 12"
x 2". The box has a smoke colored plastic lid that's hinged in the back.
When it's closed, everything is covered except for a 3 x 4 keypad. The CPU
board appears to use the Motorola EXOR-bus and has a Motorola 6800 CPU.
There is a smaller card on the RH side that has the keypad and six digit
seven segment LED display. The ICs are dated 1979 and 1980. 

   These appear to be part of a system. I found several other boxs that
were also made by ASCI. One of them has a micro-cassette drive. Another is
a switch box that switchs between a printer, punch, etc. Another larger box
has relays and a bunch of terminal strips on it. It appears that it's meant
to be controlled from the CPU box and can operate a good number of external
devices.

   I need to know what they are before Saturday.

   Joe


From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Thu Oct  5 21:37:05 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: CP/M BIOS setup
In-Reply-To: <001e01c02edc$3a411340$0500fea9@winbook>
References: <00b501c02e77$a38e6ce0$29109a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001005213705.441f4bc0@mailhost.intellistar.net>

At 08:54 AM 10/5/00 -0600, Dick wrote:
>I must have screwed up an put this out on the list.  I thought I had
>modified the destination address . . . <sigh> another "senior moment."  It

   Keep it on the list. It's interesting to the ones of  us that aren't as
smart.

   Joe


From richard at idcomm.com  Thu Oct  5 21:09:46 2000
From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: CP/M BIOS setup
References: <007f01c02f2b$45aa6cf0$6d0f9a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <001b01c02f3a$e1e0f940$0500fea9@winbook>

Well, it seems everybody keyed on the same, unfortunately wrong, end of the
problem I'm trying to address.  Yes, it's true that there are countless
utilities to allow using foreign formats by phantoming or whatever, but
those basically wanted the user to assign a format and then try to use it.

What I'm after is a utility that examines a boot diskette, which, by
definition contains the OS' 3 constituents, the CCP, the BDOS, and the BIOS,
among other things, and, by comparing the portion that would ostensibly
contain the BDOS with an internal copy of the BDOS, find and map out in
sequence those sectors containing the BDOS, and deducing from that the
sector skew between tracks, the sector interleave within a track, and then
loading the OS into the TPA to examine the BIOS to get whatever information
it has to offer.

Allison suggests that the disk parameters are obscure and hard to locate,
but CORTESI's book on CP/M, among others, provides a bit of software that
quickly and reliably extracts any disk-related parameters one would need
from the running BIOS.  Given that it can be done automatically on a running
BIOS, it's unlikely one would be unable to do that just as automatically
from a BIOS that's resident in the TPA.   This stuff is not relocating
itself.  It's quite well-defined where everything is to be found.

In those cases, among which one finds the CCS example, wherein a simple,
"dumb" BIOS is loaded into a 20-K CP/M requiring a 32K memory in which to
run, and subseqeuently used to run a "smarter" and more fully developed
version of the BIOS together with the OS loaded into whatever memory it
finds available thereby making a 64K(actually 61K) CP/M quite attainable,
one would have to examine the autocommand that's loaded in the "dumb" system
in order to find the image that's going to contain the "real McCoy" with the
full-featured BIOS from which the parameters relating to the directory and
data areas of the diskette can be extracted.

This strategy is particularly important in those rare cases where one has
actually done what the CCS folks recommend and format the first two tracks
of an 8" diskette single-density and the remainder at double density.
Likewise, the remainder of the diskette can be two-sided.  The reason THEIR
loader doesn't handle the DD formats in their "dumb" BIOS is that it is
written in 8080 code rather than Z80, but their double-density handler uses
Z80 code to move the data.  It even does something wierd with that, i.e.
loading an opcode as data in a buffer so it can later be modified to
accomplish a complementary operation to what it normally does.  The "other"
approach they recommend is rewriting the BOOT code in the EPROM and the
loader in Z80 code.

>From what I can tell, the information is all there on a bootable diskette,
but one must also be able to extract what's needed from a non-bootable
diskette, since one might just want to read data from a diskette used in a
system that can only boot DD.  I know of several such systems so it's not
unheard-of.  If a known file of more than 8K length is used as a target, one
can use that file to extract the same information from the diskette, at
least as far as sector skew between tracks, sector interleave within a
track, and the BIOS-related disk parameters are concerned.

What puzzles me is that, if this information is so readily available, why
hasn't the entire process been automated already?  I know there are lots of
folks who hack away at these problems, but most of the time, they quit when
their immediate problem is solved.  What I'm trying to find out is whether
there might be an easy, or at least rigorous, way to characterize and
ultimately program this task.  As I wrote earlier, even the authors who've
written about this tend to equivocate somewhat about exactly how some things
should be done.  There is always a bit of a guess as to whether 4K or 8K
allocation blocks should be used when hooking up a hard disk.  That's not an
issue with floppies, however.

Generally, when one's trying to read what's on a diskette, it's necessary to
know little more than how big the floppy is, allowing the computer to figure
out what the modulation, data rate, and associated formats and track layout
are.  The computer can tell whether it's two-sided, simply by looking to see
whether it can read data from both heads.  It can tell whether the diskette
is written in FM or MFM by attempting to read it.  It can tell how long a
sector is by reading one and looking at it, and it can deduce the track to
track sector skew by doing a track-read and looking at the order of the
sector numbers on each successive track until the pattern repeats itself.
It can also tell how large an allocation bock is by examining directory
entries.

I've embedded a couple of context-sensitive remarks in the quoted post
below, if you'd like to read them.

Dick


----- Original Message -----
From: ajp166 <ajp166@bellatlantic.net>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 6:13 PM
Subject: Re: CP/M BIOS setup


> >the adjacent ones.  The BDOS doesn't change, generally, though there may
be
> >changes in the BIOS.  By finding each sector of the BDOS, one learns
about
> >the format of the boot tracks.  My CCS system, for example, requires, at
> >least for the distributed boot EPROM, that the boot tracks be SSSD.
> That
>
> I have a fully documented CCS and it clasifies as the early basic CP/M
> bios of low to average functionality.  It's robust but closer to a minimal
> example.
>
True enough, but it's compatible with a front-panel and the software's
written for an 8080 so you can use their FDC with an 8080 or 8085 as well as
a Z80.  Moreover, it's rock-solid.  The fact that it uses a nearly
vanilla-flavored CP/M doesn't detract either.  I've run into absolutely no
CP/M programs that won't run on it, while there are numerous utilities that
won't work properly on the more modern MPM-targeted boards I got from
Systems Group.
>
> >> the key parameters are the DPH, DPB and SKEW... also you need to know
> >> how big the sector is and if there is embedded skew within the sector.
> >> Then you need to know the disk layout, things like what side/sector
> >> numbering was used.  For example I've seen two sided media where
> >> sector one occured on both sides and where identically formatted, also
> >> I've seen side one as 1 thru 9 and side two as 10 through 17...
> >>
What you refer to as skew is what I call the interleave, while a sector skew
is a difference in sector numbering from idex, used by some systems (mostly
early DEC actually, but some truly random-access systems as well) to
minimize delays imposed by rotational latency during track-to adjacent-track
seeks.  I'm aware that sector numbering varies from one system to another.
That's exactly why I think an automatic tool to construct the system
parameters and install them in a dummy drive parameter block
> > >
> >These parameters are all there on a boot diskette.  It's just necessary
> to
> >find them.
>
>
> Not all and they may be very hard to find.  DPH, DPB  ahve pointers to
> them as a result of the BIOS call to Seldisk.  The SKEW however may
> not be used in the SECTRAN call at all!  Often the skew translate is
> a table but it can be calculated and for DD the SECTRAN call is applied
> at the logical sector level and doesn't apply well for double density who
> have sector sizes larger than one logical sector.  So skew in that case
> will likely be burried in the raw read/write routine.  Or possibly even
> at the logical sector level inside the the physical sector.
>
> So wome things are not guarenteed and also not easily found.
>
> >The Multidisk and Eset that I have are not for this purpose.  They want
to
> >be passed the information that I'm suggesting could be extracted.
>
>
> Oh like I said I can be... but if you know it's easier as even with 33mhz
> z180 your going to flog a while getting to the same answer.
>
It's difficult to pass it parameters you don't already know.  If you don't
know them, you've got to do some work and that's what I'm trying to
automate.
>
> >That's exactly the problem I'm trying to circumvent.  The interleave,
skew,
> >sector size, etc, are all accurately represented on the boot diskette.
> The
>
>
> Ah, no.  Most boot sectors are not skewed and like you observed may
> not be the same density or sector size.
>
> >BDOS is the BDOS, i.e. shouldn't be different on different boot
> diskettes,
>
>
> Likely but not always true.
>
> >so long as the CP/M version is the same.  Consequently, it should be
>
> There were patches and the CP/M version can be misleading.  Many of the
> clones use base 2.2 ID so apps will run normally, most all are written
> using
> z80 unique instructions where DRI used only 8080.
>
If it's not the stuff from DRI, it's not relevant, since it's not CP/M.
I'll admit that's a weakness, but for now, I'm happy to deal with CP/M only.
AFAIK, DRI didn't issue any patches to v2.2.  There were several enhanced
systems patterned after and purported to be compatible with CP/M 2.2, but
for now, I'm wanting to deal with the plain-vanilla CP/M.
>
> >possible, having once determined the sector size, to extract,
> automatically,
> >the relative locations of sequential sectors of this known file.  Since
> we
> >KNOW and RECOGNIZE the BDOS, shouldn't it be possible to find its
> beginning,
>
>
> BDOS is not part of the CP/M file system!  It's in the boot tracks.
>
That's true, BUT, when you have a two-stage boot, you can examine the second
layer boot system, and, in fact, have to in order to avoid getting tangled
up in discrepancies between the boot tracks and the directory and data area.
>
> >parameters from the system BIOS and verifying them against another known
> >file e.g. PIP.COM, should provide the necessary information about the
> >directory and data areas of the diskette.  Isn't that so?
>
> You would be forced to do that and heuristically that will be a PITA!  PIP
> is in the file system whereas BDOS is out on the boot tracks.  the boot
> tracks in the CCS case is SSSD and the system tracks can be DSDD!  The
bios
> entries for DPH, DPB do not say if the disk is DSDD or even if it's
> floppy.
> It will tell you how many logical sectors per track, If skew is used. If
> directory is checked, allocation size and the size of the area used ofr
data
> storage.  You will have to figure out from that a lot of things that are
variable
> and can still end up as the same answer.
>
In fact, I don't believe they have to be "figured out" at all.  After all
the diskette is in the drive.  You just have to look at it.
>
> >> >Another item I've wanted for some time to automate is the setup of a
hard
> >> >disk BIOS.  Since it's dependent not so much on CP/M quirks but often
more
> >> >on decisions made on the basis of folklore, I thought it might be
> >> >interesting to examine the process as a candidate for automation.
>
>
> it's been done but the usual is to hook the disk IO routine and load a
> mini hard disk bios in high memory.  Teltek, Konan and a few others did
that.
> A better way is to provide slots that can be filled with an address of the
> driver(s).    The reason for the difficulty is the wide assortment of
> controllers and the varied protocals to talk to them.  If it was always
IDE
> or SCSI it would be simpler.
>
> >Well, I don't see hand-feeding a set of parameters that one has to
> determine
> >by guessing on the basis of lots of conflicting folklore as particularly
> >easy.  Authors who wrote about the process e.g. Laird and Cortesi seemed
> to
>
> No folklore.  There are detailed tables out there for every drive and
> disk going if one care to look.  What do you think Multidisk does/is?
>
All I've seen of Multidisk is about half a dozen different formats, used by
a dozen or more different system vendors.  Maybe there were later versions,
but since it required I know what its variables are, and I want to determine
what they are by an autmatic process, I figure it's solving a different
problem.
>
> >equivocate considerably about this, and, while it's straightforward to
> come
> >up with a set of parameters that work, it's not easy to come up with the
> >optimal ones, at least where the HD is concerned.  Both of the authors I
>
> Optimal ones for hard disk in the timeframe they wrote in was simple.
> hard disks are FAST and Z80s (pre 1990) are NOT.  No amount of
> optimization is possible.  Actually if you have banked memory caching
> is the solution as it steps neatly around the problems.  FYI: the
> problem is that CP/M does a lot of realatively small transfer with
> lots of references to the directory. the true limiter to performance is
> not data rate but latency (mostly from shuffling the head).  When Laird
> wrote a fast drive was a Quantum D540(31mb MFM 5.25 FH) with a
> average latency of around 30mS.
>
> >is in hand, it's easy, certainly, but what should one do, given a known
> >bootable but otherwise undefined boot diskette?  The reality of the data
> >present on a boot diskette defines all the parameters necessary to
> >recreate it, doesn't it?
>
> No.  the boot tracks are always written by a specialized utility like
> SYSGEN (which is not generic code) that is always system specific.
>
True enough, but however the data gets there, we always know where it is,
and, by virtue of where, what it is as well.
>
> >I get emails from people all the time, asking about how to build a boot
> >diskette for a system they can't boot because they don't have a BIOS on
> >the diskette for the I/O ports they use.
>
> Most of those I converse with with that set of questions have no sources
> to work from and find 8080 or Z80 asm code scary to terrifying.  Often
they
> dont know the ports in use nor what they mean.  Rare is the one with Docs
for
> their system at the time the question is launched.  They often think it's
just
> like a PC where dos boots on all if the disk fits.
>
> >Likewise, I get frequent questions about how to formulate an optimal
> >configuration for a hard disk.  While it
>
> Like Laird said and I'll say _optimal_ for what?  I'd never use the word
optimal.
> Again, expereince most want a drop in replacement like a PC.  Most do not
> code at that level or dont wish to try.  Many dont have docs needed.  So
what
> they want is not optimal, just something that works.
>
> >may not be a terrible thing, it is something many people, including
> myself,
> >though I've done it several times, find daunting.  In the absence of a
> >rigorous method it's hard to find peace at the end of the task because
> >so many less-than optimal solutions will work quite well.  How's a person
> >to determine what's best?
>
>
> Lesse,  I have five systems with hard disks all were added later two with
> code supplied.  I find peace with the fact that they work and are
reliable.
> Only one have I applied rigorous and experimental methods to the extreme
> to see what was possible and effective... Occams razor won most often.
>
> Here it is: hard disks and performance.  Assume nothing about the hard
> disk used rare is the old drive/controller that can really help you.  DMA
> or a seperate  processor will help if the CPU is loaded or memory is
> short.

> Caching at the track or cylinder level with a LRU method really helps if
> you have space (64-128k is good).  You will cache(call it host buffer if
> you like) anyway as most hard disk have sector sizes larger than 128
> bytes requireing deblocking. Caching the directory seperate from
> the data area cache really pays as it saves head thrashing.  Achieve the
>
> above or subset with direct and efficient code.
>
> I've tried this using a IDE drive (still working the code out) and most
> decent over 100mb drive have caching (quantum PRO AT series does).
> use it as it isolates you from things like skew and all.
>
> If you using a an old SA4000, forget all this as making it work is
> three quarters the battle.
>

It does get much more messy when you try to squeeze speed out of the system
in ways the ultra-slow CPU doesn't let you appreciate, but when I said
optimal, I meant for the technology of the time, which meant, at least to
me, getting the most hard disk space to fit into the parameters the system
would allow, without overly restricting either effective space utilization
or directory space.  That seems to have been the key tradeoff of the time
... allocation block size versus number of directory entries.  One other
factor was swtiching heads rather than moving the head stack.  The heads
take at least 3 ms to move from track to track, plus 8 ms on the average, to
rotate half a rev, while switching heads took about 40-50 microseconds on
the early Seagate ST506's.  The trick, to me, was always finding a way to
computer head, cylinder and sector from the CP/M sector number you were
given by the BDOS without having to swallow up half a KByte in lookup
tables.

> Allison
>
>
>


From lgwalker at look.ca  Fri Oct  6 03:01:55 2000
From: lgwalker at look.ca (Lawrence Walker)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: mac serial pinouts
In-Reply-To: <m13hFtk-000IyHC@p850ug1>
References: <35457871@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> from "Marion Bates" at Oct 5, 0 01:20:16 pm
Message-ID: <39DD2483.8240.AA2F3F@localhost>

 
> > Hey, 
> > Can anyone tell me which pins (and I don't know the numbering
> > scheme, so please include that) are transmit, receive, and gnd on a
> > Mac 8-pin mini-din port? 
> 
> The pinout I have numbers the pins like this : 
> 
>     o   o   o
>     8   7   6
>   o      o    o
>   5      4    3
>       o   o
>       2   1
> 
> Looking into the socket.
> 
> The pinout is : 
> 1 Handshake output
> 2 Handshake (or external clock) input
> 3 Tx Data -
> 4 Ground
> 5 Rx Data -
> 6 Tx Data +
> 7 No Connection
> 8 Rx Data +
> 
> For RS232 connections : take transmit data (output from Mac) from
> TxD-. Ignore TxD+. Feed receive data (input to mac) into RxD-. Ground
> RxD+ (link 4 to 8) and link the external device ground to that
> connection as well. Handshake In is like CTS or DSR, handshake out is
> like RTS or DTR
> 
> Hope that helps
> 
> -tony
> 
 A problem exists with Mac cables. Unless you're using the newer 
hispeed cable you can't connect to your ISP even tho it seems to 
test ok with a terminal program. I ran across this problem in trying 
to hook my Mac up. I fussed and fumed over it for about a month 
before stumbling across the solution.
 There is nothing to physically indicate any differences between the 
2 cables. A little.Practical Peripherals file explains it as follows:

 The Macintosh has too few pins for a full RS-232 implementation. 
The RS-23 standard has 25 pins, however, most Mac ports have 
only 8 pins. The following pins are needed when talking to a high-
speed modem:

 Input                        RX
 Output                     TX
 Clear to Send           CTS
 Ready to Send         RTS
 Data Terminal Ready DTR
 Carrier Detect           DCD
 Ring Detect              RI (can be done in software)
 Ground

So if ring detect is covered in the software, you should only need 7 
pins to handle communications. Unfortunately, the Mac ports 
double as RS-422 ports, and some of the pins are used to support 
this. Therefore the Mac only guarantees five or maybe six pins that 
can be used. While this wasn't a problem for 2400 bps modems, 
since they didn't require RTS/CTS, and even CD was rarely 
connected. You could just turn off your modem if it didn't hang up. 
This of course didn't work for BBS operators or ARA servers, so a 
cable was developed that used the RTS (usually called HSKo on
the Mac) pin for DTR, and the CTS (usually called HSKi) pin for CD.

As you can imagine, this cable configuration is a problem for high-
speed modem users, since the RTS/CTS lines are used for CD and 
DTR. You couldn't take advantage of the full potential of your high-
speed modem. That is why a new "standard" hardware handshake 
cable layout was developed.

 Here's the pin outs for that cable:

 Function (Mac)  Function (RS-232)   Pin (Mac)   Pin (RS-232)
 Receive data     Receive data             5                   3
 Send data         Send data                3                    2
 Ground             Ground                   4 & 8               7
 HSKi                CTS                         2                   5
 HSKo               RTS & DTR              1                  4 & 20
 GPi                  CD                          7                    8

Unfortunately, not all Macs support Pin 7 (GPi) thus leaving us with 
keeping CD on at all times. Also, since DTR is tied to RTS a high-
speed modem must be set to ignore any change in DTR. 
Otherwise an RTS flow control change would cause the modem to 
hang up the telephone line. If both your Macintosh and your 
hardware handshake cable support Pin 7, then you could properly 
track changes in DCD, but setting the modem to track DTR will still 
cause the modem to hang up when RTS is toggled.  END

Perhaps this is the problem Marion is wrestling with.

ciao		larry 


Reply to:
lgwalker@look.ca

From lgwalker at look.ca  Fri Oct  6 03:01:55 2000
From: lgwalker at look.ca (Lawrence Walker)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: Screeching 5 1/4 FDD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SCO.4.20.0010051335070.6246-100000@crash.cts.com>
References: <39DC6195.5290.BC116E@localhost>
Message-ID: <39DD2483.31123.AA2F6C@localhost>



> 
> 
> On Thu, 5 Oct 2000, Lawrence Walker wrote:
> 
> >  I have a hard to replace dsdd floppy disk that produced a 
> > screeching noise while attempting to read it on a win98 box under
> > Dos using  a Dos program. I quickly removed it and tried to read it
> > on another Dos box also with a HDFDD. No screech but only the
> > directory was readable, not the contents. I checked the original FDD
> > again using a scrap dsdd floppy and had no trouble with it.
> >  Anyone have any thoughts as to what would have caused this ?
> 
> Whenever I have heard that horrid squeal, it has been followed with
> the disappearance of the magnetic media on a track or cylinder. :{  
> 
> > And whether the disk is salvageable ? I'm reluctant to run the disk
> > again on any box till I explore the options, lest I damage it
> > further.
> >  It was an old DRI PC-install master disk for GEM.
> 
> The first thing that you want to do as make several image copies of
> the disk on a drive with known clean heads and using a utility such as
> AnaDisk that will make a track-by-track copy of it.  Then work on a
> copy!
>        - don

 AAARRGH !! 
 There go my hopes for a tasty profit. An identical set just sold for 
$205 on E-Pay. I know the actual install and later versions are
available on the Unoficial CPM site, I have several installed on one 
of my boxes so it isn't lost, but DAMN ! 
 I guess it would be unethical to steam the DRI lable off. :^(
 Oh well, maybe a copy of the master disk along with the original
nonfunctioning one will suffice.

thanks guys

larry
 


Reply to:
lgwalker@look.ca

From lgwalker at look.ca  Fri Oct  6 03:01:55 2000
From: lgwalker at look.ca (Lawrence Walker)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: OT : What is this Monitor
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001005172830.009daeb0@mail.wincom.net>
References: <39DC6195.31740.BC1191@localhost>
Message-ID: <39DD2483.32158.AA2F8F@localhost>



> At 11:10 AM 10/5/2000 -0700, you wrote:
> >  Don't quite know where else to ask this, my apologies for the OT.
> >
> >I recently acquired an EZC m. sm483c monitor with a DB-9 socket
> >( sorry I've forgotten Tony D.'s correct designation) Since it was
> >manufactured in Jun 98 it's unlikely to be an EGA. The company seems
> >to be no longer in business and I could find little on it.
> >  EZC appears to be a company that made items for the vision-
> >impaired so I expect this is some kind of high-definition monitor. It
> >powers up OK but I don't want to try it on one of my EGA cards or
> >similar 9-pin boxes lest the magic smoke escapes. Anyone with any
> >info/suggestions ?
> >
> >ciao            larry
> >
> >Reply to:
> >lgwalker@look.ca
> 
> Hi, Larry:
>          If it is colour it could be VGA. I have three or four 
> multisync  monitors that use a 9 pin male to 15 pin male cable. Also I
> have a 9 pin to 15 pin adapter.  If things get desperate I will try to
> check the pin outs.
> 
>                                    Regards
>                                    Charlie Fox

 Hi Charley

 I also have several multisyncs like that, but they usually have 
additional setting switches on the back, and the date of 
manufacture -98 for a 9pin seems odd. Possibly it had it's own
special card. I'll just chance it on one of my combination 9-15
VGA cards.

thanks		larry

BTW hows the museum venture going ?

Reply to:
lgwalker@look.ca

From lgwalker at look.ca  Fri Oct  6 03:01:55 2000
From: lgwalker at look.ca (Lawrence Walker)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: Screeching 5 1/4 FDD
In-Reply-To: <20001005201655.VPBJ6495.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>
References: <39DC6195.5290.BC116E@localhost>
Message-ID: <39DD2483.21033.AA2FB7@localhost>


> I'd bet the oxide is coming free of the substrate and causing the
> screeching sound. That is just surmise.
> 
> I spent about a week rejuvinating a 9track tape that was doing
> something similar.  I kept cleaning the heads and running the tape
> through the drive while holding alcohol soaked chemwipes to the tape
> surface.  I'm unsure if you can clean a floppy this way or not.
> 
> Jeff
> 
 Were you able to save the data on the tape ?
If the oxide wasn't coming free in crucial areas and it was just a bit
affecting the heads perhaps cleaning it could work. If the disk is 
toast anyway it might be worth a try as a last resort.

thanks		larry



Reply to:
lgwalker@look.ca

From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Fri Oct  6 02:06:23 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010051147350.24523-100000@siconic.com>
References: <l03102803b60289abd38d@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <l03102800b6032a1b5107@[192.168.1.4]>

>The way I see it, it's supposedly an "adult" word.  So if you're an adult
>and don't use it on at least a regular basis, you have some growing up to
>do.

I don't want to shock you with an alien concept, but use of vulgar language
isn't polite.



From vcf at siconic.com  Fri Oct  6 01:52:42 2000
From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: VCF 4.0 Dr. Dobb's Vintage Computer Exhibition Awards
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010052248281.25516-100000@siconic.com>


Here are the results of the 4th Annual Vintage Computer Festival
Exhibition (sponsored by Dr. Dobb's Journal, http://www.ddj.com).

Home-brew, Kit or Educational Computer

1st: Jim Willing, HERO Robot
2nd: Cameron Kaiser, Tomy Tutor
3rd: Larry Pezzolo, Lawrence Livermore Labs Microprocessor Trainer


Manufactured Personal Computer - Pre-1981

1st: Wayne Smith, "Pre-PC IBM Desktop"
2nd: Jordan Ruderman, SOL-20
3rd: David Kavanaugh, IMSAI 8080


Manufactured Personal Computer - 1981 or After

1st: Simon Favre, IBM 3270 AT/GX
2nd: Rick Lehrbaum, Ampro Z-80
3rd: Pete Johnson, HP Integral PC


Mini-computer or Larger System

1st: Dwight Elvey, Nicolet 1080
2nd: Chuck McManis, "Qbus VAXen"
3rd: Not Awarded :(


Open Class

1st: Derek Peschel, Marchant ACR8M Electromechanical Calculator
2nd: David Weil, "Before There Were Computers"
3rd: Cole Erskine, Friden EC-130 Electronic Calculator


Special Awards

Best Presentation - Research

Dwight Elvey, Nicolet 1080


Best Presentation - Completeness

Simon Favre, IBM 3270 AT/GX


Best Presentation - Display

Curt Vendel, "Atari Historical Society"


Best Presentation - Creative Integration with Contemporary Technology

Jordan Ruderman, SOL-20 (used a CD player to store Cassette-based
  programs)


Best Preservation - Original Condition

Rick Lehrbaum, Ampro Z-80


Best Preservation - Restoration

Dwight Elvey, Nicolet 1080


Best Preservation - Recreation

Not Awarded :(


Best Preservation - Simulation

Cameron Kaiser, Commodore 64 Tomy Tutor Emulator


Best Preservation - Obscurity

Hans Franke, Juku (Estonian computer)


Best Technology - Analog

David Weil, "Before There Were Computers


Best Technology - Non-Electronic

Derek Peschel, Marchant ACR8M Electromechanical Calculator


People's Choice Award

Dale Luck, "Lorraine - The First Amiga and Her Sisters Daphne, Agnus, and
  Portia" (Original Amiga Prototype)


Best of Show

Simon Favre, IBM 3270 AT/GX


Congratulations to Simon Favre and Dwight Elvey who both came away in a
tie of the ribbon count with 3 ribbons each!!

Start thinking about what YOU could exhibit at VCF 5.0!

The rules for the exhibition can be found at:

    http://www.vintage.org/2000/exhibit.html

Sellam                                 International Man of Intrigue and Danger
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...

                       VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
               San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
                    See http://www.vintage.org for details!


From agraham at ccat.co.uk  Fri Oct  6 03:50:32 2000
From: agraham at ccat.co.uk (Adrian Graham)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
Message-ID: <00Oct6.095036bst.46094@gatekeeper.ccat.co.uk>

Not round the dinner table with your parents it might not be (apart from my
gf's :) but round here in the office we'd have to use a 5-cab PDP 11/35 as a
swear box.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Ford [mailto:mikeford@socal.rr.com]
> Sent: 06 October 2000 08:37
> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Re[4]: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
> 
> 
> >The way I see it, it's supposedly an "adult" word.  So if 
> you're an adult
> >and don't use it on at least a regular basis, you have some 
> growing up to
> >do.
> 
> I don't want to shock you with an alien concept, but use of 
> vulgar language
> isn't polite.
> 
> 

From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us  Fri Oct  6 07:02:20 2000
From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: VCF 4.0
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010051557260.24937-100000@siconic.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010051557260.24937-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <v04210103b6036fab088a@[157.178.130.128]>

How bout putting it in the midwest (maybe chicago area) so it can be
easily accessed from either coast?

-Bob


>On Thu, 5 Oct 2000 THETechnoid@home.com wrote:
>
> > How can I get the VCF to hold it's event a bit closer to the East Coast
> > than California?  I wanted to go, but a 3500mile trek was out of the
> > question.  How about Montana or the Dakotas?
>
>Keep making noise.  We started looking in to doing a VCF East this year
>and it's been on my mind for the past couple years, but it's a lot of work
>as you may imagine, and now that VCF Europe is in the Spring we have to
>plan it either right after or right before (when the weather isn't too
>terrible).
>
>Once I'm fully recovered from VCF 4.0 and have my day job project well
>under way, then I'll start giving serious consideration to a VCF East.  I
>think 2001 will almost certainly see some sort of east coast VCF event.
>
>So stay tuned.
>
>Sellam                                International Man of Intrigue and Danger
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Looking for a six in a pile of nines...
>
>                       VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
>               San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
>                    See http://www.vintage.org for details!

Bob Brown
Saved by grace
Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown

From vaxman at uswest.net  Fri Oct  6 07:21:56 2000
From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: VCF 4.0
In-Reply-To: <v04210103b6036fab088a@[157.178.130.128]>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1001006062037.600A-100000@oldy.crwolff.com>


Or Denver! It could be held at Will J.'s museum!

clint

PS Hey Will, when you gonna get that museum finished?

On Fri, 6 Oct 2000, Bob Brown wrote:

> How bout putting it in the midwest (maybe chicago area) so it can be
> easily accessed from either coast?
> 
> -Bob
> 
> 
> >On Thu, 5 Oct 2000 THETechnoid@home.com wrote:
> >
> > > How can I get the VCF to hold it's event a bit closer to the East Coast
> > > than California?  I wanted to go, but a 3500mile trek was out of the
> > > question.  How about Montana or the Dakotas?
> >
> >Keep making noise.  We started looking in to doing a VCF East this year
> >and it's been on my mind for the past couple years, but it's a lot of work
> >as you may imagine, and now that VCF Europe is in the Spring we have to
> >plan it either right after or right before (when the weather isn't too
> >terrible).
> >
> >Once I'm fully recovered from VCF 4.0 and have my day job project well
> >under way, then I'll start giving serious consideration to a VCF East.  I
> >think 2001 will almost certainly see some sort of east coast VCF event.
> >
> >So stay tuned.
> >
> >Sellam                                International Man of Intrigue and Danger
> >------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >Looking for a six in a pile of nines...
> >
> >                       VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
> >               San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
> >                    See http://www.vintage.org for details!
> 
> Bob Brown
> Saved by grace
> Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown
> 
> 


From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org  Fri Oct  6 08:15:03 2000
From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: Screeching 5 1/4 FDD
In-Reply-To: <39DD2483.31123.AA2F6C@localhost> from Lawrence Walker at "Oct 6,
 2000 01:01:55 am"
Message-ID: <200010061315.e96DF3503219@bg-tc-ppp542.monmouth.com>

> > >  It was an old DRI PC-install master disk for GEM.
> > 
> > The first thing that you want to do as make several image copies of
> > the disk on a drive with known clean heads and using a utility such as
> > AnaDisk that will make a track-by-track copy of it.  Then work on a
> > copy!
> >        - don
> 
>  AAARRGH !! 
>  There go my hopes for a tasty profit. An identical set just sold for 
> $205 on E-Pay. I know the actual install and later versions are
> available on the Unoficial CPM site, I have several installed on one 
> of my boxes so it isn't lost, but DAMN ! 
>  I guess it would be unethical to steam the DRI lable off. :^(
>  Oh well, maybe a copy of the master disk along with the original
> nonfunctioning one will suffice.
> 
> thanks guys
> 
> larry

$205 -- damn... I guess I ought to pull all my stuff out and EBAY it.
Boy... I've got a lot of stuff like this.

Bill

-- 
bpechter@monmouth.com      |     Microsoft: Where do you want to go today?
                           |     Linux:     Where do you want to go tomorrow?
                           |     BSD:       Are you guys coming, or what?

From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Fri Oct  6 08:31:06 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: VCF 4.0
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB1C0@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>

> On Thu, 5 Oct 2000 THETechnoid@home.com wrote:
> 
> > How can I get the VCF to hold it's event a bit closer to the East Coast
> > than California?  I wanted to go, but a 3500mile trek was out of the
> > question.  How about Montana or the Dakotas?
> 
> Keep making noise.  We started looking in to doing a VCF East this year
> and it's been on my mind for the past couple years, but it's a lot of work
> as you may imagine, and now that VCF Europe is in the Spring we have to
> plan it either right after or right before (when the weather isn't too
> terrible).
> 
> Once I'm fully recovered from VCF 4.0 and have my day job project well
> under way, then I'll start giving serious consideration to a VCF East.  I
> think 2001 will almost certainly see some sort of east coast VCF event.

Cool! Hopefully further East Coast than St. Louis, tho...  

:-)

-dq


From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu  Fri Oct  6 08:57:47 2000
From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: VCF 4.0
In-Reply-To: <v04210103b6036fab088a@[157.178.130.128]> from Bob Brown at "Oct 6, 0 07:02:20 am"
Message-ID: <200010061357.GAA16278@stockholm.ptloma.edu>

> How bout putting it in the midwest (maybe chicago area) so it can be
> easily accessed from either coast?

You call that easy? :-P

-- 
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
 Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- Dread each day as it comes. -- Donald Kaul ---------------------------------

From Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu  Fri Oct  6 09:13:03 2000
From: Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu (Marion Bates)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: mac serial pinouts
Message-ID: <35495415@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU>

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From jwest at mppw.com  Fri Oct  6 09:42:46 2000
From: jwest at mppw.com (Jay West)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: test message - please ignore
Message-ID: <FKEMKLIGFCGFBBHAICOOEEAKCIAA.jwest@mppw.com>

Test on new mail server. Please ignore (classiccmp)

Jay West

From marvin at rain.org  Fri Oct  6 10:18:41 2000
From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: Ziatech
References: <200010052004.OAA11068@calico.litterbox.com>
Message-ID: <39DDED51.443CA00B@rain.org>


Anyone familiar with Ziatech? I was just checking some back email and found
a liquidation sale going on last May. They were located in San Luis Obispo,
CA and IIRC made single board computers.

From rivie at teraglobal.com  Fri Oct  6 10:43:20 2000
From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: Ziatech
In-Reply-To: <39DDED51.443CA00B@rain.org>
References: <200010052004.OAA11068@calico.litterbox.com>
 <39DDED51.443CA00B@rain.org>
Message-ID: <v04210106b603a3610405@[10.2.0.84]>

>Anyone familiar with Ziatech? I was just checking some back email and found
>a liquidation sale going on last May. They were located in San Luis Obispo,
>CA and IIRC made single board computers.

I never dealt with them, but I do have a catalog or two
of theirs around. Their claim to fame AFAIK was STD-32,
basically EISA in an STD bus chassis.

--
Roger Ivie
rivie@teraglobal.com
Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation

From agraham at ccat.co.uk  Fri Oct  6 10:51:47 2000
From: agraham at ccat.co.uk (Adrian Graham)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: Ziatech
Message-ID: <00Oct6.165150bst.46094@gatekeeper.ccat.co.uk>

Did these single board computers run some flavour of u**x? I was putting in
a big Alpha Cluster at a very large aluminium manufacturer from Canada's
local plant around 3 years ago and I'm sure they were using Ziatech kit to
run the monitoring probes on all the potlines....they'll be pleased to hear
they've gone bust!

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marvin [mailto:marvin@rain.org]
> Sent: 06 October 2000 16:45
> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org
> Subject: Ziatech
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone familiar with Ziatech? I was just checking some back 
> email and found
> a liquidation sale going on last May. They were located in 
> San Luis Obispo,
> CA and IIRC made single board computers.
> 

From rdd at smart.net  Fri Oct  6 10:50:00 2000
From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
In-Reply-To: <l03102800b6032a1b5107@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010061144020.27189-100000@smarty.smart.net>

On Thu, 5 Oct 2000, Mike Ford wrote:
> >The way I see it, it's supposedly an "adult" word.  So if you're an adult
> >and don't use it on at least a regular basis, you have some growing up to
> >do.
> 
> I don't want to shock you with an alien concept, but use of vulgar language
> isn't polite.

Well said; the use of vulgar language is also childish and indicative of
one's upbringing and social status (regardless of income).

--
Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of
All Rights Reserved            Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to
rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd   a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD 





From harrison at timharrison.com  Fri Oct  6 10:49:17 2000
From: harrison at timharrison.com (Tim Harrison)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: VCF 4.0
References: <200010061357.GAA16278@stockholm.ptloma.edu>
Message-ID: <39DDF47D.8CC7BCB1@timharrison.com>

Cameron Kaiser wrote:
 
> > How bout putting it in the midwest (maybe chicago area) so it can be
> > easily accessed from either coast?
> 
> You call that easy? :-P

How about a VCF.ca? :)  It could be VCF v4.9a.

-- 


Tim Harrison
Network Engineer
harrison@timharrison.com
http://www.networklevel.com/

From foo at siconic.com  Fri Oct  6 10:20:21 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: VCF 4.0
In-Reply-To: <v04210103b6036fab088a@[157.178.130.128]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010060820080.26223-100000@siconic.com>

On Fri, 6 Oct 2000, Bob Brown wrote:

> How bout putting it in the midwest (maybe chicago area) so it can be
> easily accessed from either coast?

John Keyes, where are you?

Sellam                                International Man of Intrigue and Danger
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...

                       VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
               San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
                    See http://www.vintage.org for details!



From foo at siconic.com  Fri Oct  6 10:25:29 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: OFF-TOPIC Re: Re[4]: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010061144020.27189-100000@smarty.smart.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010060822090.26223-100000@siconic.com>

On Fri, 6 Oct 2000, R. D. Davis wrote:

> On Thu, 5 Oct 2000, Mike Ford wrote:
> > >The way I see it, it's supposedly an "adult" word.  So if you're an adult
> > >and don't use it on at least a regular basis, you have some growing up to
> > >do.
> > 
> > I don't want to shock you with an alien concept, but use of vulgar language
> > isn't polite.
> 
> Well said; the use of vulgar language is also childish and indicative of
> one's upbringing and social status (regardless of income).

HAHAHHA.

What a bunch of bullshit.

The lack of so-called "vulgar" language in one's vocabulary demonstrates a
fundamental lack of maturity.

That you would equate using cuss words with "social status" demonstrates
this pretty clearly.

Sellam                                International Man of Intrigue and Danger
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...

                       VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
               San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
                    See http://www.vintage.org for details!



From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com  Fri Oct  6 12:00:11 2000
From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: OFF-TOPIC Re: Re[4]: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010060822090.26223-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <000701c02fb6$e4a3fe80$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>


> The lack of so-called "vulgar" language in one's vocabulary 
> demonstrates a fundamental lack of maturity.

Yeah, Yeah.  Big Time.   Big Time.

John A.

From THETechnoid at home.com  Wed Oct  4 07:42:10 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
In-Reply-To: <39DA991D.65F12D9B@timharrison.com>
Message-ID: <20001006170858.OUHQ6495.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

>I always thought that "segmentation fault: core dumped" was pretty
>useful. ;)

<GRIN>

>I have to admit, though, that the OS/2 traps were the most ridiculous
>error messages.  Worse than the BSoD.  Once you learned to read traps,
>though, you could conquer the world.

Not nearly as bad as a BSOD.  That kills your box.  OS/2 will just display
the error and allow you to proceed.  A minor trap like 3175 described
below does not cause your system to turn to jello. Though if OS/2 gives
you a BLACK Screen of Death (Trap 000D,000E...), it is really really dead
-- "Please manually transcribe this 4k screen of Hex and text and call
IBM". 

Like your gonna. ;-0

OS/2 has allways had a neato replacement (diagnostic) kernel which allows
terminals to access the system even if it is crashed. I have never used
it.

OS/2's Help facility documents the System, not just the Operating System.

The documentation that ships on the OS/2 install cd is beyond compare in
the industry.  IMHO, no other operating system is as well documented. 
Notice I didn't say 'complete' because Linux has the most complete but
it's docs are dense and scattered.

The OS/2 documentation is so good, so full, and so beautifully presented
I'd have to show it to you for you to believe it. Graphics, screen dumps,
all fully indexed and searchable. If you print a 'book' such as the
'Reference and Commands' text, it prints as a rather large (600+ page)
book - complete to the cover, copywrite info, page numbers, headers and
footers, index, everything. Like PDF but better and in color, these
documents are perfect on the screen.  Printing them is just a waste of
paper but if you do, the printed document comes out ready for binding.
Warp 4 ships with more than twenty such books on the install cd.

The docs are so complete, if you were the Man From Mars or just an
intelligent computer illiterate, you could go from learning how to use a
mouse to a WAN-Guru-who-programs in Java, Rex, Visual C++, and Visual
Basic without ever leaving the help facility. I owe my career to OS/2.

After a four year U.S. Navy imposed 'computer hiatus' from 87' to 91', I
worked as a silkcreen printer then got a tech job with a Brazillian-owned
company in Miami.  I discovered OS/2 2.0 and thought it was too big and
slow on my 4mb 386sx.  Later I got a 486 with 24mb ram and OS/2 2.11.  The
rest is history. I went from Atari 8-bit and CP/M character-oriented boxes
to the OS/2 GUI and CLI.  Just like that. I might have gone Amiga but IBM
got thier gui technology from Commodore.....

OS/2 2.xx and Warp never has made me much money directly, but the
experience and knowlege I gained from it make it a simple trick to network
other operating systems. From X.25, TCP/IP, Netbios, Banyan, to you name
it, Warp will interoperate with a rock or a rocketship and will clearly
explain the hows and whys of doing it.

Since my experience with OS/2 began in 92'/93', I've discovered IBM to be
astonishgly anal retentive. Everything about OS/2 is thorough to the n'th
degree. Even things that really don't matter.

I really wish the operating system market hadn't turned so sour.  We can
blame MS and rightly do so, but I.B.M. didn't do thier part by staying in
the game long enough for the courts to put things right.



*******************************************************************************************



OS/2 Command Interpreter version 4.5


[C:\]help sys3175

SYS3175: A program in this session encountered a problem and
cannot continue.

EXPLANATION: An access violation exception occurred and was generated when
an attempt was made either to load or store data in an inaccessible
location or to execute an inaccessible instruction.  This exception
corresponds to both the Intel 80386 processor general protection fault
(#13), caused by an invalid access attempt, and the page fault (#14),
caused by an attempt to access an uncommitted page or a page with
incorrect attributes for the desired operation.

ACTION: If you purchased this program, contact the supplier of the
program.  If you are the developer of this program, refer to the
information in the register.


[C:\]
*******************************************************************************************



-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From ncherry at home.net  Fri Oct  6 12:29:46 2000
From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: OFF-TOPIC Re: Re[4]: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010060822090.26223-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <39DE0C0A.ECEE2D75@home.net>

Sellam Ismail wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 6 Oct 2000, R. D. Davis wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, 5 Oct 2000, Mike Ford wrote:
> > > >The way I see it, it's supposedly an "adult" word.  So if you're an adult
> > > >and don't use it on at least a regular basis, you have some growing up to
> > > >do.
> > >
> > > I don't want to shock you with an alien concept, but use of vulgar language
> > > isn't polite.
> >
> > Well said; the use of vulgar language is also childish and indicative of
> > one's upbringing and social status (regardless of income).
> 
> HAHAHHA.
> 
> What a bunch of bullshit.
> 
> The lack of so-called "vulgar" language in one's vocabulary demonstrates a
> fundamental lack of maturity.
> 
> That you would equate using cuss words with "social status" demonstrates
> this pretty clearly.

And the over use of such words demonstrates the same lack of maturity
(Though your use doesn't fall into that category).

There is one place where "such language" at even small levels is intolerable,
that is in business. To those who do it, you have no idea the embarrassment
you cause. To those who have to take it, it just lowers the opinion of the
individual/company.

There is a time and place for everything. And moderation when appropriate.

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net  Fri Oct  6 12:23:13 2000
From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (FBA)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: VCF 4.0
Message-ID: <005801c02fba$2299a110$c834d986@wkchafauradon.beckman.com>

>
>John Keyes, where are you?

I was wondering that myself.

Francois



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Oct  6 13:14:45 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: mac serial pinouts
In-Reply-To: <39DD2483.8240.AA2F3F@localhost> from "Lawrence Walker" at Oct 6, 0 01:01:55 am
Message-ID: <m13hc1A-000IyNC@p850ug1>

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From foo at siconic.com  Fri Oct  6 12:54:20 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: VCF 4.0
In-Reply-To: <005801c02fba$2299a110$c834d986@wkchafauradon.beckman.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010061053350.26451-100000@siconic.com>

On Fri, 6 Oct 2000, FBA wrote:

> >John Keyes, where are you?
> 
> I was wondering that myself.

He must be busy.  He expressed an interest in hosting a VCF Midwest so I
sent him off the FAQ.  I'm still waiting to hear back from him on it.

So John, if/when you read this, let me know.

Sellam                                International Man of Intrigue and Danger
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...

                       VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
               San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
                    See http://www.vintage.org for details!



From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Fri Oct  6 14:59:37 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: Ziatech
In-Reply-To: <39DDED51.443CA00B@rain.org>
References: <200010052004.OAA11068@calico.litterbox.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001006145937.3e1ffe02@mailhost.intellistar.net>

  Yes,, I'm familar with them. They also make HP-IB cards for the PCs. I
called them once looking for info on an old card and they mailed me a
manual for it. It was pleased with their tech support.  I'm sorry to see
them go under.

    Joe

At 08:18 AM 10/6/00 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Anyone familiar with Ziatech? I was just checking some back email and found
>a liquidation sale going on last May. They were located in San Luis Obispo,
>CA and IIRC made single board computers.
>


From mtapley at swri.edu  Fri Oct  6 13:58:42 2000
From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: OFF-TOPIC Re: Re[4]: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
Message-ID: <l03102802b603cffdb298@[129.162.151.33]>

> The lack of so-called "vulgar" language in one's vocabulary demonstrates a
> fundamental lack of maturity.

I would say that depends very heavily upon one's definition of the word
"mature". I can report, without regret, that I'm unlikely ever to be
"mature" by that definition - and I was born in 1962.

(I will admit the caveat that a fear of using "vulgar" language, in the
*very rare* situations where it really is appropriate, is also not
necessarily healthy.)

							- Mark



From ncherry at home.net  Fri Oct  6 14:29:15 2000
From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:47 2005
Subject: VCF 4.0
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010061053350.26451-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <39DE280B.2F70150@home.net>

Sellam Ismail wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 6 Oct 2000, FBA wrote:
> 
> > >John Keyes, where are you?
> >
> > I was wondering that myself.
> 
> He must be busy.  He expressed an interest in hosting a VCF Midwest so I
> sent him off the FAQ.  I'm still waiting to hear back from him on it.
> 
> So John, if/when you read this, let me know.
> 
> Sellam                                International Man of Intrigue and Danger
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Looking for a six in a pile of nines...
> 
>                        VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
>                San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
>                     See http://www.vintage.org for details!

If I may so presumptious (ouwie, ouwie, big words make head hurt :-), for
the VCF East you might consider working with ACGNJ (http://www.acgnj.org)
they already hold a computer festival each year for computers in general.
Adding the VCF to it wouldn't overload them too much. And they attempted
it last year but didn't get very much.

I would love to attend (but I'm in the middle of organizing the Open
Source LHA project) and show some of my stuff. It should be able to handle
Southern NY, all of NJ, Eastern PA, Southern Conneticut and Northern
Maryland (~2 hr up the NJ Turnpike). Not the entire East Coast.

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

From ncherry at home.net  Fri Oct  6 14:30:04 2000
From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:48 2005
Subject: VCF 4.0
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010061053350.26451-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <39DE283C.50CD8DCD@home.net>

Sellam Ismail wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 6 Oct 2000, FBA wrote:
> 
> > >John Keyes, where are you?
> >
> > I was wondering that myself.
> 
> He must be busy.  He expressed an interest in hosting a VCF Midwest so I
> sent him off the FAQ.  I'm still waiting to hear back from him on it.
> 
> So John, if/when you read this, let me know.
> 
> Sellam                                International Man of Intrigue and Danger
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Looking for a six in a pile of nines...
> 
>                        VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
>                San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
>                     See http://www.vintage.org for details!

If I may so presumptuous (ouwie, ouwie, big words make head hurt :-), for
the VCF East you might consider working with ACGNJ (http://www.acgnj.org)
they already hold a computer festival each year for computers in general.
Adding the VCF to it wouldn't overload them too much. And they attempted
it last year but didn't get very much.

I would love to attend (but I'm in the middle of organizing the Open
Source LHA project) and show some of my stuff. It should be able to handle
Southern NY, all of NJ, Eastern PA, Southern Connecticut and Northern
Maryland (~2 hr up the NJ Turnpike). Not the entire East Coast.

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Fri Oct  6 14:41:00 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:48 2005
Subject: OFF-TOPIC Re: Re[4]: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB1C6@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>

> > The lack of so-called "vulgar" language in one's vocabulary demonstrates
a
> > fundamental lack of maturity.
> 
> I would say that depends very heavily upon one's definition of the word
> "mature". I can report, without regret, that I'm unlikely ever to be
> "mature" by that definition - and I was born in 1962.
> 
> (I will admit the caveat that a fear of using "vulgar" language, in the
> *very rare* situations where it really is appropriate, is also not
> necessarily healthy.)

In both speech and writing, we're taught that we can use transitional
phrases to help the flow. "Alternatively,", "On the other hand,",
"As you might expect,", and so on....

Kind funny, Dad seemed to pick up that G-D this and M-F that were
transitional phrases, rather than adjectives. This would have been
understandable had he been a sailor, but he was an M.P. in the Army.

As a small consolation, I always preferred to think that he was 
reaching for words when he was p-o'd instead of reaching for a 
club or a gun.

Such language is referred to as "intemperate." But at what point
does a lack of temper leave off, and righteous indignation begin?
Now, without a doubt, when he was p-o'd at my brother and I, this
was intemperate, as we could *never* have been guilty of anything
that would lead him to "righteous indignation"...

;-)

-dq

From at258 at osfn.org  Fri Oct  6 14:50:55 2000
From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:48 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010050914050.24275-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.1001006154954.6140C-100000@osfn.org>

On Thu, 5 Oct 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote:

> What's wrong with the "F" word?  Fuck is one of the most useful words in
> the English language.

Beats the hell out of c\/\/m or syzygy.

M. K. Peirce
Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc.
215 Shady Lea Road,
North Kingstown, RI 02852

"Casta est qui nemo rogavit."
              
              - Ovid


From donm at cts.com  Fri Oct  6 15:05:33 2000
From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:48 2005
Subject: Ziatech
In-Reply-To: <39DDED51.443CA00B@rain.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.SCO.4.20.0010061302430.16261-100000@crash.cts.com>



On Fri, 6 Oct 2000, Marvin wrote:

> 
> Anyone familiar with Ziatech? I was just checking some back email and found
> a liquidation sale going on last May. They were located in San Luis Obispo,
> CA and IIRC made single board computers.
> 

They also made cards and support equipment for GPIB, amongst other
items.  
						 - don



From jrkeys at concentric.net  Fri Oct  6 16:24:34 2000
From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:48 2005
Subject: VCF 4.0
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010061053350.26451-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <000d01c02fdb$d3f891c0$4e721fd1@default>

I'm still wanting to put on a show next spring and been busy looking for
a site and getting helpers.  I have also come up some speakers.  I will
get with offline later with more details.
John Keys
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sellam Ismail" <foo@siconic.com>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2000 12:54 PM
Subject: Re: VCF 4.0


> On Fri, 6 Oct 2000, FBA wrote:
>
> > >John Keyes, where are you?
> >
> > I was wondering that myself.
>
> He must be busy.  He expressed an interest in hosting a VCF Midwest so
I
> sent him off the FAQ.  I'm still waiting to hear back from him on it.
>
> So John, if/when you read this, let me know.
>
> Sellam                                International Man of Intrigue
and Danger
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
> Looking for a six in a pile of nines...
>
>                        VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
>                San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
>                     See http://www.vintage.org for details!
>
>
>


From jrkeys at concentric.net  Fri Oct  6 16:42:29 2000
From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:48 2005
Subject: VCF 1 Midwest
Message-ID: <011401c02fde$54a02340$4e721fd1@default>

Hope to have the event here in the Twicities after the snow leaves ext
spring (2001).  Still looking for more volunteers to help with the work.
Also talking with some companies about being cash sponsors for the event
along with prizes to give away. That's about all I want to give out
right now until I have things locked down, but more to come.
John Keys


From richard at idcomm.com  Fri Oct  6 16:58:09 2000
From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:48 2005
Subject: scanned manuals
Message-ID: <003d01c02fe0$846d28a0$0500fea9@winbook>

Opportunity knocks!  I broke my left (prosthetic) foot last weekend and the replacement didn't make it here today as scheduled, so I'm going to be on my gluteus maximus for much of the weekend.  If I've offered to scan a document for you, please remind me, and promptly, because I'm going to be busy catching up on chores, etc, after my broken foot is replaced.

I'm looking for a widely accessible site on which to store these documents, but I think the 1 MB/page TIFF's are a mite big for that.  Perhaps someone would like to recommend a site?  Let's NOT fight about the format, though, all right?

Dick

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From jpero at sympatico.ca  Fri Oct  6 13:08:43 2000
From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:48 2005
Subject: scanned manuals
In-Reply-To: <003d01c02fe0$846d28a0$0500fea9@winbook>
Message-ID: <20001006220931.FGXM18376.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@pii350>

> From:          "Richard Erlacher" <richard@idcomm.com> To:         
>   "classic computer mailing_list" <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
> Subject:       scanned manuals Date:          Fri, 6 Oct 2000
> 15:58:09 -0600 Reply-to:      classiccmp@classiccmp.org

> Opportunity knocks!  I broke my left (prosthetic) foot last weekend and the
>  replacement didn't make it here today as scheduled, so I'm going to 
> be on my gluteus maximus for much of the weekend. 

Hi Dick,

What did you lose your lower leg?  This is amazing that you're doing 
normal things as well as normal person.

Cheers,

Wizard

From harrison at timharrison.com  Fri Oct  6 18:06:13 2000
From: harrison at timharrison.com (Tim Harrison)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:48 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
References: <20001006170858.OUHQ6495.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>
Message-ID: <39DE5AE5.B6A03202@timharrison.com>

THETechnoid@home.com wrote:

> Not nearly as bad as a BSOD.  That kills your box.  OS/2 will just display
> the error and allow you to proceed.  A minor trap like 3175 described
> below does not cause your system to turn to jello. Though if OS/2 gives
> you a BLACK Screen of Death (Trap 000D,000E...), it is really really dead
> -- "Please manually transcribe this 4k screen of Hex and text and call
> IBM".
> 
> Like your gonna. ;-0

I was more referring to the system stopping traps.  Those used to make
my heart stop, as they were very rare in my 5 years of OS/2 experience
(maybe I was a lucky one... I've heard others constantly having problems
-- although I usually found they were hardware problems).

I thought about calling an IBM tech support line one day, and just
reading random information to them, to see if they even knew what I was
talking about. :)
 
> OS/2 has allways had a neato replacement (diagnostic) kernel which allows
> terminals to access the system even if it is crashed. I have never used
> it.

I feel remarkably stupid.  I don't think I've ever seen that...

-- 


Tim Harrison
Network Engineer
harrison@timharrison.com
http://www.networklevel.com/

From dburrows at netpath.net  Fri Oct  6 18:02:01 2000
From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:48 2005
Subject: VCF 1 Midwest
Message-ID: <089d01c02fe9$ee943670$a652e780@L166>



>Hope to have the event here in the Twicities after the snow leaves ext
>spring (2001).  Still looking for more volunteers to help with the work.
>Also talking with some companies about being cash sponsors for the event
>along with prizes to give away. That's about all I want to give out
>right now until I have things locked down, but more to come.
>John Keys

Another words you are planning it for June?  I remember when I moved to
Duluth MN,  I figured I was safe with Memorial weekend.  Wrong it snowed
while we were unloading the truck.

Dan


From richard at idcomm.com  Fri Oct  6 18:25:04 2000
From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:48 2005
Subject: scanned manuals
References: <20001006220931.FGXM18376.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@pii350>
Message-ID: <001701c02fec$a9247520$0500fea9@winbook>

I don't know about that "normal" bit, but I was hit by a car while commuting
to work on my motorcycle over twenty years ago.

The foot is made of space-age polymers and Delrin, but still breaks from
time to time.

Dick

----- Original Message -----
From: <jpero@sympatico.ca>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2000 12:08 PM
Subject: Re: scanned manuals


> > From:          "Richard Erlacher" <richard@idcomm.com> To:
> >   "classic computer mailing_list" <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
> > Subject:       scanned manuals Date:          Fri, 6 Oct 2000
> > 15:58:09 -0600 Reply-to:      classiccmp@classiccmp.org
>
> > Opportunity knocks!  I broke my left (prosthetic) foot last weekend and
the
> >  replacement didn't make it here today as scheduled, so I'm going to
> > be on my gluteus maximus for much of the weekend.
>
> Hi Dick,
>
> What did you lose your lower leg?  This is amazing that you're doing
> normal things as well as normal person.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Wizard
>
>


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Fri Oct  6 18:41:30 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:48 2005
Subject: CP/M BIOS setup
Message-ID: <006801c02fef$b5679e90$b90e9a8d@ajp166>

From: Richard Erlacher <richard@idcomm.com>


>Allison suggests that the disk parameters are obscure and hard to
locate,
>but CORTESI's book on CP/M, among others, provides a bit of software
that


In short simple sentences. If you have not done this you will be
surprized.
Cortesi write with the assumption that all bioses have the structure and
form
he uses as example.  It is a defective assumption.

>In those cases, among which one finds the CCS example, wherein a simple,
>"dumb" BIOS is loaded into a 20-K CP/M requiring a 32K memory in which
to
>run, and subseqeuently used to run a "smarter" and more fully developed


Not really.

>version of the BIOS together with the OS loaded into whatever memory it
>finds available thereby making a 64K(actually 61K) CP/M quite
attainable,


This is not news, nor significant.

>one would have to examine the autocommand that's loaded in the "dumb"
system
>in order to find the image that's going to contain the "real McCoy" with
the
>full-featured BIOS from which the parameters relating to the directory
and
>data areas of the diskette can be extracted.


Presuming there was an autocommand.

>This strategy is particularly important in those rare cases where one
has
>actually done what the CCS folks recommend and format the first two
tracks
>of an 8" diskette single-density and the remainder at double density.
>Likewise, the remainder of the diskette can be two-sided.  The reason
THEIR


CCS while a decent box is far from being the be all, say all of the bios
world.

>What puzzles me is that, if this information is so readily available,
why
>hasn't the entire process been automated already?  I know there are lots
of


Becasue it's is not so readially available.  You assume it is and proceed
that
way but once you get off that CCS box the world changes greatly.  Look at
the 5.25 formats, look close at the similar but not the same formats.
For
example I have 5 different 5.25 781kb formats that are not even similar.
One uses 1024byte sectors, another has sector 1 on side one and side two
ends with sector 18 (512byte!).  There is one that numbers the cylinders
sero thourgh 79 on one side and 80 throgh 159 on the second.  The fifth
is like the first save for the skew is appied at format and not in the
bios.
Funny thing the DPH and DPB is exactly the same for all of them

>should be done.  There is always a bit of a guess as to whether 4K or 8K
>allocation blocks should be used when hooking up a hard disk.  That's
not an
>issue with floppies, however.


Yes it is.  I have floppies that use 1k (most SD though some are DD!),
many
that use 2k and even some nut case using 4k(not me honest!).

>> I have a fully documented CCS and it clasifies as the early basic CP/M
>> bios of low to average functionality.  It's robust but closer to a
minimal
>> example.
>>
>True enough, but it's compatible with a front-panel and the software's
>written for an 8080 so you can use their FDC with an 8080 or 8085 as
well as
>a Z80.  Moreover, it's rock-solid.  The fact that it uses a nearly
>vanilla-flavored CP/M doesn't detract either.  I've run into absolutely
no
>CP/M programs that won't run on it, while there are numerous utilities
that
>won't work properly on the more modern MPM-targeted boards I got from
>Systems Group.


Sorta.  It doesn't support type ahead, circular iterrupt driven buffers
for
fast serial devices and relies on CPU PIO.  It's low end.  The only thing
it does do is double density and SSSD 8" interchange (sometimes).

>What you refer to as skew is what I call the interleave, while a sector
skew


No I'm using the DRI term out of their books.  I know its interleave.

>is a difference in sector numbering from idex, used by some systems
(mostly
>early DEC actually, but some truly random-access systems as well) to

Actually DEC has a two level one for VT180, interleaved 512byte physical
sectors
and interleave inside the sectors.  It's one of three formats that were
used for that
though that was least common.

>If it's not the stuff from DRI, it's not relevant, since it's not CP/M.


Your really looking to ignore progress, and even DRI supplied mods?

>I'll admit that's a weakness, but for now, I'm happy to deal with CP/M
only.
>AFAIK, DRI didn't issue any patches to v2.2.  There were several
enhanced


If you insist.

>That's true, BUT, when you have a two-stage boot, you can examine the
second
>layer boot system, and, in fact, have to in order to avoid getting
tangled
>up in discrepancies between the boot tracks and the directory and data
area.


Ok but what systems usually use a two stage boot?  Few and nearly none.

>> storage.  You will have to figure out from that a lot of things that
are
>variable  and can still end up as the same answer.
>>
>In fact, I don't believe they have to be "figured out" at all.  After
all
>the diskette is in the drive.  You just have to look at it.

See my example of the 781k disks. Two of them would defy simple
inspection.

>It does get much more messy when you try to squeeze speed out of the
system
>in ways the ultra-slow CPU doesn't let you appreciate, but when I said
>optimal, I meant for the technology of the time, which meant, at least
to
>me, getting the most hard disk space to fit into the parameters the
system
>would allow, without overly restricting either effective space
utilization
>or directory space.  That seems to have been the key tradeoff of the
time

>... allocation block size versus number of directory entries.  One other


Not really a big deal was made of it as few had real world expereince and
were trying to scare up a few more bytes of the drive they paid so dearly
for and then never filled more than 50%.  The other half was hard disks
were new things to have to deal directly with so there was an aura of
mystery to setting values.  The only thing that ever and still concerns
me
is the ALLOC vector as for a 8mb logical drive with 4k granularity there
will
be 256 bytes of ram for just for that, add 512 for a host buffer, 128 for
the
directory buffer local variables and you eaten 896 bytes for the first
drive
and about 256+ per drive and that is non recoverable space.  That is the
only real problem.  Add that to a featureless base driver and it's an
easy
2-3k of space for the bios more if it's a real bios.

>factor was swtiching heads rather than moving the head stack.  The heads
>take at least 3 ms to move from track to track, plus 8 ms on the
average, to
>rotate half a rev, while switching heads took about 40-50 microseconds
on


More than that as the ST506 didn't do (nor did the controllers of the
time)
fast seeks.  You had to wait for the ST225 for that.  Stated average
access
time is 178mS for st506, St225 was a more resonable 73 and the Quantum
D540 took that to a mere 57.  The D540 could look faster though with it's
8 heads as you didn't shuffle far and the voicecoil actuator was fairly
fast.

>the early Seagate ST506's.  The trick, to me, was always finding a way
to
>computer head, cylinder and sector from the CP/M sector number you were
>given by the BDOS without having to swallow up half a KByte in lookup
>tables.


Floggin. One the drive was filled to about 30% and had been in use for a
while you were moving around a lot and there was little trickery that
helped
at the drive level.

I didn't kill space in lookup tables.  It was simple to me.  The 4 heads
and the 16 512 byte sectors per track were handled as SPT of 256 in
the DPB so the BDOS would hand back a logical sector on a track
with head number in there too.  I treated the four sides as one logical
track.  A few right and left shifts would give me a head (upper two bits)
physical sector (middle 4bits) and logical sector index into the physical
sector (lower two bits).  The CYLINDER was passed as track by the BDOS.
Obviously it was quite compact.

If you build like DRI, Cortesi or Laird said you hit the wall every
16k as where ever you are your going back to the directory where
ever it happened to be and that took a long time.

The first drive I had(still have turns 20 next summer) was a 506. It was
slow, the controllers were slow and the only up side is some would
buffer a full sector for you saving CPU timing.  I stopped using it
when I got my second hard disk a D540, in real life it was much
faster and introduced me to the problem of partitions.  I moved up
as the drive was available and offered speed, even with 6mhz z80s
the ST506 was ponderously slow.  It was only exceeded by an 8"
Memorex 102 I gave away working, CTRL-C was a real wait and
a kick to watch the head creap back.


Allison



From jrkeys at concentric.net  Fri Oct  6 19:19:48 2000
From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:48 2005
Subject: VCF 1 Midwest
References: <089d01c02fe9$ee943670$a652e780@L166>
Message-ID: <000f01c02ff4$4f5d1580$cd721fd1@default>

I'm hoping for May.
John Keys
----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel T. Burrows" <dburrows@netpath.net>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2000 6:02 PM
Subject: Re: VCF 1 Midwest


>
>
> >Hope to have the event here in the Twicities after the snow leaves
ext
> >spring (2001).  Still looking for more volunteers to help with the
work.
> >Also talking with some companies about being cash sponsors for the
event
> >along with prizes to give away. That's about all I want to give out
> >right now until I have things locked down, but more to come.
> >John Keys
>
> Another words you are planning it for June?  I remember when I moved
to
> Duluth MN,  I figured I was safe with Memorial weekend.  Wrong it
snowed
> while we were unloading the truck.
>
> Dan
>
>


From whdawson at mlynk.com  Fri Oct  6 21:51:18 2000
From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:48 2005
Subject: Screeching 5 1/4 FDD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SCO.4.20.0010051335070.6246-100000@crash.cts.com>
Message-ID: <000d01c03009$77c7de00$5a9e72d1@cobweb.net>


-> On Thu, 5 Oct 2000, Lawrence Walker wrote:
->
-> >  I have a hard to replace dsdd floppy disk that produced a
-> > screeching noise while attempting to read it on a win98 box under
-> > Dos using  a Dos program.

The screeching is caused by lack of lubricant on the disk surfaces.  The
drag caused by this will sometimes slow the disk rotation enough to
cause errors, even though enough of the original disk surface remains to
allow reading.

-> >I quickly removed it and tried to read it
-> > on another Dos box also with a HDFDD. No screech but only the
-> > directory was readable, not the contents. I checked the original
-> > FDD again using a scrap dsdd floppy and had no trouble with it.
-> >  Anyone have any thoughts as to what would have caused this ?
->
-> Whenever I have heard that horrid squeal, it has been followed with
the
-> disappearance of the magnetic media on a track or cylinder.



Whenever I've had this problem occur it has been caused by improper
storage of the subject disk, usually in an area of high humidity and
warm temperature.  When the disk surface shows a white
splotching/spotting, lighter brown splotching or other discernible
discoloration, it is caused by a mold or fungus that eats away the
lubrication from the disk surface.  This splotching can cover large
areas and be very noticeable or it may be hard to discern.  It may cover
the entire surface of the disk, or it might only be seen in the head
slots.  If the rotational position of the disk has not been disturbed
since its removal from storage, rotate it 1/2 the width of the head slot
and look for a difference in coloration on the magnetic surfaces.

I've come up with a solution (no pun intended) that will usually allow
the data to be recovered if the disk isn't too badly damaged, like Don
mentions (above).  This procedure also applies to 3.5" disks.  Examine
the surface of the floppy before you put it in a drive for the first
time, especially if it has been stored in a humid, warm area or if you
don't know where it has been stored.  Look for the splotching.  If it is
present, then be ready to immediately make a copy the first time you
insert the floppy into a drive. You may only have this one chance.

Apply some 91% (non-scented) or preferably 99% Isopropyl Alcohol to both
sides of the disk in the head slot area.  You want the alcohol to be
absorbed onto the anti-friction liner of the floppy jacket, and you want
enough of it so that it lasts through the reading/copying process. It
may help to pucker the jacket to aid in the absorption of the fluid.
Rotate the disk inside of the jacket enough that you are sure it is
thoroughly wetted.  Don't wet it so much that fluid is dripping off,
though. If it is, shake off the excess, head slots away from you. The
dripping and slinging of alcohol inside the disk drive mechanism is not
good for the lubricated parts inside nor for the powered up electronics.
INSURE EVERYTHING IS READY TO READ/COPY.  Now, insert floppy and quickly
perform the read/copy.  I highly recommended that you have two floppy
drives for doing this, unless you can read or copy the diskette in one
pass.  If not, you may have to wet the floppy more than once.

If you get errors while reading, (S)kip or (I)gnore them if (R)etry
doesn't work on the first couple of retries. The alcohol evaporates
quickly, and you risk destroying areas of the disk that may have been
readable had the alcohol remained.

The alcohol accomplishes several things.  It acts as a replacement for
the missing lubrication, it helps scrub the fungus residue from the disk
surface (which ends up on the jacket liner), it protects the heads from
the abrasion of the molded areas and it keeps the heads flushed during
the data recovery process.  Due to the lubrication, the diskette will
also rotate at the proper speed and timing/sync caused errors are
eliminated.

Alcohol is fairly inert in respect to the plastics used in many floppy
drives.  Also, if the drive used in this process is single sided,
alcohol will not weaken the adhesive commonly used to attach the
pressure pad.

I've found that the best type of floppy storage for preventing this
lubricant eating fungus, other than a proper storage environment, is an
airtight container.  Ziplock type bags work well.

Bill

whdawson


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri Oct  6 23:15:23 2000
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:48 2005
Subject: CP/M BIOS setup
In-Reply-To: <006801c02fef$b5679e90$b90e9a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010062107400.19579-100000@lanshark.lanminds.com>

Richard thinks that the process of analyzing disk formats can be
automated.

Allison and I say that it isn't quite that simple, and that possession of
a program is not enough to EASILY analyze what data structures the program
uses.

I am NOT saying that it is impossible - it is definitely possible.  But I
am saying that the task of automating it would be significant.  I have
manually analyzed quite a few more formats than most people have:
http://www.xenosoft.com/fmts.html

I would LOVE to be proven wrong, and have somebody create an automatic
format analysis that works.  Therefore, Dick, since you have some time
while you reboot [sorry, couldn't resist], may I suggest that you go ahead
and write the code to do it, and prove us wrong.  It would be an
impressive accomplishment, worthy of admiration.

--
Fred Cisin                      cisin@xenosoft.com
XenoSoft                        http://www.xenosoft.com
PO Box 1236                     (510) 558-9366
Berkeley, CA 94701-1236


From richard at idcomm.com  Sat Oct  7 02:21:17 2000
From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:48 2005
Subject: CP/M BIOS setup
References: <006801c02fef$b5679e90$b90e9a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <003301c0302f$2fc96da0$0500fea9@winbook>


----- Original Message -----
From: ajp166 <ajp166@bellatlantic.net>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2000 5:41 PM
Subject: Re: CP/M BIOS setup


> From: Richard Erlacher <richard@idcomm.com>
>
>
> >Allison suggests that the disk parameters are obscure and hard to
> locate,
> >but CORTESI's book on CP/M, among others, provides a bit of software
> that
>
>
> In short simple sentences. If you have not done this you will be
> surprized.  Cortesi write with the assumption that all bioses
> have the structure and form
>
> he uses as example.  It is a defective assumption.
>
I'm not convinced that the structure of the BIOS matters at all if one uses
the BDOS to fetch or point to whatever he's after.  I do believe it's fair
to adhere to the basic format and layout provided by DRI, however.  No one
says it's the only way to skin the cat.  His utilities return the correct
parameters, however, even on my Systems Group machine that is patterned
after the one used in MP/M.  At some level that seems to have been kept
compatible.
>
> >In those cases, among which one finds the CCS example, wherein a simple,
> >"dumb" BIOS is loaded into a 20-K CP/M requiring a 32K memory in which
> >to run, and subseqeuently used to run a "smarter" and more fully
developed
>
> Not really.
>
What do you mean, Allison?  I can assure you that it works fine as a larger
and smarter BIOS was certainly loaded in my setup, so it could handle the
printers, two of which required ETX/ACK and the others requiring X-on/X-off,
and which used an 8" hard disk interfaced via an XCOMP controller and a
couple of 5-1/4" drives via a WD bridge, with PUN and RDR assigned to a mag
cartridge tape.
>
> >version of the BIOS together with the OS loaded into whatever memory it
> >finds available thereby making a 64K(actually 61K) CP/M quite
> attainable,
>
> This is not news, nor significant.
>
> >one would have to examine the autocommand that's loaded in the "dumb"
> system
> >in order to find the image that's going to contain the "real McCoy" with
> the
> >full-featured BIOS from which the parameters relating to the directory
> and
> >data areas of the diskette can be extracted.
>
> Presuming there was an autocommand.
>
> >This strategy is particularly important in those rare cases where one
> has
> >actually done what the CCS folks recommend and format the first two
> tracks
> >of an 8" diskette single-density and the remainder at double density.
> >Likewise, the remainder of the diskette can be two-sided.  The reason
> THEIR
>
>
> CCS while a decent box is far from being the be all, say all of the bios
> world.
>
> >What puzzles me is that, if this information is so readily available,
> why
> >hasn't the entire process been automated already?  I know there are lots
> of
>
>
> Becasue it's is not so readially available.  You assume it is and proceed
> that
> way but once you get off that CCS box the world changes greatly.  Look at
> the 5.25 formats, look close at the similar but not the same formats.
> For
> example I have 5 different 5.25 781kb formats that are not even similar.
> One uses 1024byte sectors, another has sector 1 on side one and side two
> ends with sector 18 (512byte!).  There is one that numbers the cylinders
> sero thourgh 79 on one side and 80 throgh 159 on the second.  The fifth
> is like the first save for the skew is appied at format and not in the
> bios.
> Funny thing the DPH and DPB is exactly the same for all of them
>
> >should be done.  There is always a bit of a guess as to whether 4K or 8K
> >allocation blocks should be used when hooking up a hard disk.  That's
> not an
> >issue with floppies, however.
>
>
> Yes it is.  I have floppies that use 1k (most SD though some are DD!),
> many that use 2k and even some nut case using 4k(not me honest!).
>
Yes but that's easily recognizable if you check the directory entries and
disk parameters.   Remember, I propose extracting this information from the
physical medium, not from some speculation.
>
> >> I have a fully documented CCS and it clasifies as the early basic CP/M
> >> bios of low to average functionality.  It's robust but closer to a
minimal
> >> example.
> >>
> >True enough, but it's compatible with a front-panel and the software's
> >written for an 8080 so you can use their FDC with an 8080 or 8085 as
> >well as a Z80.  Moreover, it's rock-solid.  The fact that it uses a
nearly
> >vanilla-flavored CP/M doesn't detract either.  I've run into absolutely
no
> >CP/M programs that won't run on it, while there are numerous utilities
> >that won't work properly on the more modern MPM-targeted boards I
> >got from Systems Group.
>
> Sorta.  It doesn't support type ahead, circular iterrupt driven buffers
> for
> fast serial devices and relies on CPU PIO.  It's low end.  The only thing
> it does do is double density and SSSD 8" interchange (sometimes).
>
> >What you refer to as skew is what I call the interleave, while a sector
> skew
>
>
> No I'm using the DRI term out of their books.  I know its interleave.
>
> >is a difference in sector numbering from idex, used by some systems
> (mostly
> >early DEC actually, but some truly random-access systems as well) to
>
> Actually DEC has a two level one for VT180, interleaved 512byte physical
> sectors
> and interleave inside the sectors.  It's one of three formats that were
> used for that
> though that was least common.
>
> >If it's not the stuff from DRI, it's not relevant, since it's not CP/M.
>
>
> Your really looking to ignore progress, and even DRI supplied mods?
>
> >I'll admit that's a weakness, but for now, I'm happy to deal with CP/M
> only.
> >AFAIK, DRI didn't issue any patches to v2.2.  There were several
> enhanced
>
>
> If you insist.
>
> >That's true, BUT, when you have a two-stage boot, you can examine the
> second
> >layer boot system, and, in fact, have to in order to avoid getting
> tangled
> >up in discrepancies between the boot tracks and the directory and data
> area.
>
>
> Ok but what systems usually use a two stage boot?  Few and nearly none.
>
> >> storage.  You will have to figure out from that a lot of things that
> are
> >variable  and can still end up as the same answer.
> >>
> >In fact, I don't believe they have to be "figured out" at all.  After
> all
> >the diskette is in the drive.  You just have to look at it.
>
> See my example of the 781k disks. Two of them would defy simple
> inspection.
>
> >It does get much more messy when you try to squeeze speed out of the
> system
> >in ways the ultra-slow CPU doesn't let you appreciate, but when I said
> >optimal, I meant for the technology of the time, which meant, at least
> to
> >me, getting the most hard disk space to fit into the parameters the
> system
> >would allow, without overly restricting either effective space
> utilization
> >or directory space.  That seems to have been the key tradeoff of the
> time
>
> >... allocation block size versus number of directory entries.  One other
>
>
> Not really a big deal was made of it as few had real world expereince and
> were trying to scare up a few more bytes of the drive they paid so dearly
> for and then never filled more than 50%.  The other half was hard disks
> were new things to have to deal directly with so there was an aura of
> mystery to setting values.  The only thing that ever and still concerns
> me
> is the ALLOC vector as for a 8mb logical drive with 4k granularity there
> will
> be 256 bytes of ram for just for that, add 512 for a host buffer, 128 for
> the
> directory buffer local variables and you eaten 896 bytes for the first
> drive
> and about 256+ per drive and that is non recoverable space.  That is the
> only real problem.  Add that to a featureless base driver and it's an
> easy
> 2-3k of space for the bios more if it's a real bios.
>
> >factor was swtiching heads rather than moving the head stack.  The heads
> >take at least 3 ms to move from track to track, plus 8 ms on the
> average, to
> >rotate half a rev, while switching heads took about 40-50 microseconds
> on
>
>
> More than that as the ST506 didn't do (nor did the controllers of the
> time)
> fast seeks.  You had to wait for the ST225 for that.  Stated average
> access
> time is 178mS for st506, St225 was a more resonable 73 and the Quantum
> D540 took that to a mere 57.  The D540 could look faster though with it's
> 8 heads as you didn't shuffle far and the voicecoil actuator was fairly
> fast.
>
The stepper-driven Rodime 204E (1982) was about as fast as that Quantum and
had 640 cylinders instead of the Q540's 512.  I used one for years and am
still amazed at the performance considering it had a stepper.  The Quantum
drive was one of the last to be built on the full-height model, while the
ST506 ( I have serial number 12-hundred something down in the basement) came
out in '79 when nobody was using voice coils on that product type.  The
specified track-to-track step rate for the ST506 (The complete tech ref will
be posted sometime soon, I hope) was 3 ms.  It would do the job for sure, in
3 ms.  I checked many of them.  The Tandon equivalent and the Shugart
equivalent both did the same.  Others came later.
>
> >the early Seagate ST506's.  The trick, to me, was always finding a way
> to
> >compute head, cylinder and sector from the CP/M sector number you were
> >given by the BDOS without having to swallow up half a KByte in lookup
> >tables.
>
>
> Floggin. Once the drive was filled to about 30% and had been in use for a
> while you were moving around a lot and there was little trickery that
> helped at the drive level.
>
> I didn't kill space in lookup tables.  It was simple to me.  The 4 heads
> and the 16 512 byte sectors per track were handled as SPT of 256 in
> the DPB so the BDOS would hand back a logical sector on a track
> with head number in there too.  I treated the four sides as one logical
> track.  A few right and left shifts would give me a head (upper two bits)
> physical sector (middle 4bits) and logical sector index into the physical
> sector (lower two bits).  The CYLINDER was passed as track by the BDOS.
> Obviously it was quite compact.
>
So, what did you do when you wanted to use 17 512-byte sectors (commonly
used) and a 5-head drive, like the ones form Miniscribe that plagued us now
and again?  Or, for that matter, the 6-head ST225, which was somewhat later.
How about 1K sectors?  You could get 9 of them per track.  People were after
capacity, even though they hadn't yet figured out how to waste it.
>
> If you build like DRI, Cortesi or Laird said you hit the wall every
> 16k as where ever you are your going back to the directory where
> ever it happened to be and that took a long time.
>
I'm not sure it helped much, but since the early ('506-class) HDD's stepped
at 3 ms regardless, and since the controllers didn't take advantage of
momentum, I put the logical zero track of every partition in the physical
middle of the corresponding region of the drive.   That made the worst-case
directory-seek half as long.  Once drives capable of buffering step commands
became available that stunt wasn't necessary.  Avoiding the use of physical
track zero was an important trick, however, since almost every drive homed
to that track on power-on, and if anything went wrong, it took a "rest"
there.  I had a lot less trouble with drives once I learned not to use
physical track zero for anything that mattered at all.
>
> The first drive I had(still have turns 20 next summer) was a 506. It was
> slow, the controllers were slow and the only up side is some would
> buffer a full sector for you saving CPU timing.  I stopped using it
> when I got my second hard disk a D540, in real life it was much
> faster and introduced me to the problem of partitions.  I moved up
> as the drive was available and offered speed, even with 6mhz z80s
> the ST506 was ponderously slow.  It was only exceeded by an 8"
> Memorex 102 I gave away working, CTRL-C was a real wait and
> a kick to watch the head creap back.
>
If it truly "crept" back, it was probably because it was being stepped too
fast and got lost, finally having to do a recal, which it did slowly.
>
> Allison
>
>
>


From richard at idcomm.com  Sat Oct  7 03:09:48 2000
From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:48 2005
Subject: CP/M BIOS setup
References: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010062107400.19579-100000@lanshark.lanminds.com>
Message-ID: <003901c03035$f67c11e0$0500fea9@winbook>

It's true, I do believe that it's possible to create a procedure which will
rigorously extract the data necessary in order to define uniquely whatever
format is used on a pure CP/M 2.2 bootable soft-sectored diskette including
sector interleave and track-to-track skew.  I do not assert that such a task
will be "easy" to implement in software, but, once done, like any other task
you don't have to do yourself, it will, indeed, be easy, as the computer
will ostensibly do all the work.

It will be necessary that the standard DRI-original BDOS distributed with
the original OS be used and that certain standard-distribution utilities,
e.g. PIP or maybe ASM or even MOVCPM be located on the diskette as a file
named in the standard way with a standard directory entry describing it.  My
assertion that all the information with which to accomplish that is
contained on the diskette, and, since the computer has to be able to find it
there, another computer should be just as able to find that same
information.  It's true, some FDC's can read but not reproduce the writing
of another.  For that reason, I'll not claim that ANY FDC is capable of
this.

I didn't say it would be easy to create the software with which this would
be accomplished, but I do believe it possible, and, since the computer would
be doing the actual extraction of that information over a period of seconds,
minutes, hours, or years, it would, ultimately, be as easy as any other task
done by someone else.  I'm not dead certain that I can do this, but I am
quite certain that if it can be done on most diskettes, there probably
exists at least one sort of CP/M boot diskette with which the process will
fail.

However, I do believe that it's possible to devise a methodology by which
the information used by CP/M to describe the layout of data on its diskettes
can be extracted from a CP/M boot disk automatically and recorded in a way
that will allow another system to use that data to reproduce compatible
media, and to read and correctly interpret the data on that diskette,
provided that all the information and code used to accomplish that task are
contained on the boot diskette as opposed to elsewhere in the system, e.g.
in ROM or other storage medium for which no conventional provision is made
by the DRI CP/M 2.2 OS.

I don't believe that this will be difficult, though I do belive it will be
dreary and tedious.  I don't consider "staying in the chair" at a task hard
work, either, though that, too, is often dreary and tedious.  My interest is
mainly in 8" FD's since they're the medium of choice for CP/M distribution,
though the later-popular 5-1/4" diskettes are not totally uninteresting in
this regard.  I'd easily accept that, once one has a reasonably dependable
method for 8" diskettes, it's not a long reach to make it work for the
mini-floppies.  The latter, however, known for their quirks and foibles.  At
least a few system vendors allowed their designers to put parts of the CP/M
BIOS in EPROM, hence making an approach such as I propose impractical since
all the "pieces" would then not be available on the boot diskette.

This is not a high-priority item for me, but I am frequently asked about
matters relating to this, and believe that after 20 years of doing the job
by hand and wits, it might be possible if not beneficial, to do this.

Dick

----- Original Message -----
From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) <cisin@xenosoft.com>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2000 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: CP/M BIOS setup


> Richard thinks that the process of analyzing disk formats can be
> automated.
>
> Allison and I say that it isn't quite that simple, and that possession of
> a program is not enough to EASILY analyze what data structures the program
> uses.
>
> I am NOT saying that it is impossible - it is definitely possible.  But I
> am saying that the task of automating it would be significant.  I have
> manually analyzed quite a few more formats than most people have:
> http://www.xenosoft.com/fmts.html
>
> I would LOVE to be proven wrong, and have somebody create an automatic
> format analysis that works.  Therefore, Dick, since you have some time
> while you reboot [sorry, couldn't resist], may I suggest that you go ahead
> and write the code to do it, and prove us wrong.  It would be an
> impressive accomplishment, worthy of admiration.
>
> --
> Fred Cisin                      cisin@xenosoft.com
> XenoSoft                        http://www.xenosoft.com
> PO Box 1236                     (510) 558-9366
> Berkeley, CA 94701-1236
>
>


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Sat Oct  7 10:10:21 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:48 2005
Subject: CP/M BIOS setup
Message-ID: <008501c03071$7bd3f520$b90e9a8d@ajp166>

From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) <cisin@xenosoft.com>


>I am NOT saying that it is impossible - it is definitely possible.  But
I
>am saying that the task of automating it would be significant.  I have


I have said the same thing repeatedly.  it's a worthy project but, I've
explained there are many formats that are similar that the only way
to tell them apart is to know or trial and error.  I even gave one set
that is common in my room here.

Myself, prove me wrong.  I have no investment in that and would
love to use it if it's a practical and useful tool.

Also myself I'm investing time in a project that I consider more
valuable.  Adding a true heirarchal directories without breaking
most reasonable apps.

Allison


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Sat Oct  7 10:30:06 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:48 2005
Subject: CP/M BIOS setup
Message-ID: <008c01c03074$48837c10$b90e9a8d@ajp166>


-----Original Message-----
>> he uses as example.  It is a defective assumption.
>>
>I'm not convinced that the structure of the BIOS matters at all if one
uses
>the BDOS to fetch or point to whatever he's after.  I do believe it's
fair


His utilities break on three of my systems as I do some things like
bank part of the bios and in one case part of the BIOS is resident
and executed by a seperate cpu.

>> >In those cases, among which one finds the CCS example, wherein a
simple,
>> >"dumb" BIOS is loaded into a 20-K CP/M requiring a 32K memory in
which
>> >to run, and subseqeuently used to run a "smarter" and more fully
>developed
>>
>> Not really.
>>
>What do you mean, Allison?  I can assure you that it works fine as a
larger


I didn't mean you cant load a smarter bios.  Only that in the case of the
CCS
if you want a nice system loading a smarter bios is a good thing to do.

>> Yes it is.  I have floppies that use 1k (most SD though some are DD!),
>> many that use 2k and even some nut case using 4k(not me honest!).
>>
>Yes but that's easily recognizable if you check the directory entries
and
>disk parameters.   Remember, I propose extracting this information from
the
>physical medium, not from some speculation.


Suit yourself.  There are a few programs outthere that "image" the
disk and they didn't have it easy either.

>The stepper-driven Rodime 204E (1982) was about as fast as that Quantum
and
>had 640 cylinders instead of the Q540's 512.  I used one for years and
am


I presume the rodime was larger than 31mb as well so more cylinders are
not
amazing.  Was it an 8headed disk?

>be posted sometime soon, I hope) was 3 ms.  It would do the job for
sure, in
>3 ms.  I checked many of them.  The Tandon equivalent and the Shugart
>equivalent both did the same.  Others came later.


There is no dispute about that and I still have the spec sheat and all
for mine.
But to go from track 71 to track 0 still takes 213Ms, you can go faster
if
you ramp the step rate to 2.2mS and look for track 000.

>So, what did you do when you wanted to use 17 512-byte sectors (commonly
>used) and a 5-head drive, like the ones form Miniscribe that plagued us
now
>and again?  Or, for that matter, the 6-head ST225, which was somewhat
later.
>How about 1K sectors?  You could get 9 of them per track.  People were
after
>capacity, even though they hadn't yet figured out how to waste it.


did that too sector(s) is a 16bit value though most bios will truncate it
on
assumption that it will be 256 or less.  The only effect doing to the
miniscribe
( have two) was I had to divide out using non binary integer math rather
than
shifts, no biggie.  it was much faster drive too.

>I'm not sure it helped much, but since the early ('506-class) HDD's
stepped
>at 3 ms regardless, and since the controllers didn't take advantage of
>momentum, I put the logical zero track of every partition in the
physical
>middle of the corresponding region of the drive.   That made the
worst-case
>directory-seek half as long.  Once drives capable of buffering step
commands
>became available that stunt wasn't necessary.  Avoiding the use of
physical
>track zero was an important trick, however, since almost every drive
homed
>to that track on power-on, and if anything went wrong, it took a "rest"
>there.  I had a lot less trouble with drives once I learned not to use
>physical track zero for anything that mattered at all.


Yep you can do that.  You can take multi platter drive and designate
each platter or head as a drive.  In some cases thats faster.

For a 5mb st506 partitions were sorta pointless as I was going for
something
bigger than the 1mb floppies I already had.  A 2.5mb partition was not
considered or desired.

For the larger 31mb drives I went to 8mb partitions and let them fall on
cylinder
boundaries and left it at that.  By then caching was in use and directory
caching
as well so where things were was not much of an issue.

>> Memorex 102 I gave away working, CTRL-C was a real wait and
>> a kick to watch the head creap back.
>>
>If it truly "crept" back, it was probably because it was being stepped
too
>fast and got lost, finally having to do a recal, which it did slowly.


No 512 tracks or so and a really slow step rate it crept.  the controller
was doing step out, are we at 000, repeat.  Morrow disk jocky and
controller with their code... very slow.

Allison


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sat Oct  7 11:45:49 2000
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:48 2005
Subject: CP/M BIOS setup
In-Reply-To: <008c01c03074$48837c10$b90e9a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010070911210.4592-100000@lanshark.lanminds.com>

Earlier in this thread, Richard proposed gathering ALL the information
form a bootable diskette by examining the BDOS.  Unfortunately, that is
not quite feasable, since too much is done in the BIOS.  To his credit, he
NOW says that the disk must have a substantial file or two, such as PIP,
ASM, or MOVCPM.  That is correct.

Let's look at what is needed/desirable/useful for analyzing a disk format.
Please bear with me for not always using DRIs terminology - there are a
lot of alternate names for the same things.

If there is access to a functioning machine, then the output of
STAT DSK:
provides a lot of what is needed.

PHYSICAL FORMAT:
Bytes per sector: physical read of diskette.  Watch out for differences in
format between reserved tracks v data area
Sectors per track: physical read.  Watch out for disk formats that include
unused sectors (9 formatted sectors per track with 8 used!)
Sides:  physical read.  Watch out for diskettes that have both sides
formatted, but are only using one.

Watch out for diskettes with 40 or 80 formatted tracks that use 35 or 77!

Watch out for a few WEIRD systems that reformat sectors as they use them!

Watch out for aftermarket mods, such as alternate BIOSes - the diskette
that you receive for a given machine might not always be representative of
that machine.

Watch out for SPELLING!  I once added in a format that I thought was
spelled GROUPIL.  By the time that I found out that I had misread sloppy
handwriting, 4 competing programs had copied the "GROUPIL" format!  There
exists an INW format.  But some LNW formats are misidentified in some
programs as INW.

Number of reserved tracks:  Look at sectors until you find something that
LOOKS like a directory.  That could be automated.

Side pattern:  (up side 0, down side 1/up 0 up 1/alternating/ etc)
if not alternating, requires a disk that is over half full!  In THEORY, it
might be determinable through exhaustive study of the BIOS and BDOS.  In
reality, find a disk over half full.

Records per block:  although theoretically determinable from exhaustive
study of BIOS and BDOS, the way to determine it is to look at the
directory entry for a file larger than one block.

Bytes/bits used for block number:  look at directory entry for file
larger than one block.

Number of blocks represented in each directory entry:  in the case of 8
records per block, look at directory entry for a file larger than 8
blocks.

Interleave:  need a file larger than a full track that is EITHER a known
file (PIP, ASM, MOVCPM are good), OR one that is understandable (text
file, or machine language of a processor/mnemonics of which you are
familiar.  If there is even a little text scattered in a file, you can
"look for 1/2 a worm" by finding the beginning of a word at the end of a
sector and the beginning at the beginning of another sector.


With Richard's latest change to require a known file on the diskette, it
is becoming more feasable.  But you don't always get that!  I always
explain in detail what I need, and the critical importance of identifyi8ng
the disk ("By the time that it arrives, I will have talked to a lot of
other people, and forgotten the details, so please be SURE to label the
disk with what format it is!")  Then, when the disk arrives, it is
unlabelled, with a note that says nothing but: "Here's the disk we talked
about".  It usually has no files on it, or one file of less than 100
bytes.  Sometimes it will have 4 copies of that file.  Maybe there will
be a printout of STAT (not STAT DSK:) from a different diskette.


--
Fred Cisin                      cisin@xenosoft.com
XenoSoft                        http://www.xenosoft.com
PO Box 1236                     (510) 558-9366
Berkeley, CA 94701-1236



From vcf at siconic.com  Sat Oct  7 12:54:29 2000
From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:48 2005
Subject: An article on the ZX-81 kits still being sold in the US
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010071052230.27134-100000@siconic.com>


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/2/13785.html

These guys are a bunch of clowns.  They used to be selling these for
$29.95 until the eBay phenomenon hit.  Then they jacked up the price to
$99.95.  I guess they must be selling these at that price because they
haven't backed it down.

Is an unassembled ZX-81 kit worth $99.95 to me?  Hell no.

Sellam                                 International Man of Intrigue and Danger
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...

                       VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
               San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
                    See http://www.vintage.org for details!


From ncherry at home.net  Sat Oct  7 14:22:32 2000
From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:48 2005
Subject: An article on the ZX-81 kits still being sold in the US
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010071052230.27134-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <39DF77F8.99CF98A5@home.net>

Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
> 
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/2/13785.html
> 
> These guys are a bunch of clowns.  They used to be selling these for
> $29.95 until the eBay phenomenon hit.  Then they jacked up the price to
> $99.95.  I guess they must be selling these at that price because they
> haven't backed it down.
> 
> Is an unassembled ZX-81 kit worth $99.95 to me?  Hell no.

I purchased a kit from them @$30 and I also purchased 2 books (<$5 each)
it goes along with a fully assembled (a friend gave me) and a keyboard
added one (my friend call it a frisbee and threw it/gave it to me :-).

I remember wanting one when it was sold in K-Mart in ~1980.

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

From Innfogra at aol.com  Sat Oct  7 15:25:22 2000
From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:48 2005
Subject: S100 stuff 
Message-ID: <94.a70005a.2710e0b2@aol.com>

I hope I don't get flamed too much. I just posted most of my remaining S100 
cards on eBay. Seller name is Innfosale. 

Sorry for this but I need to maximize my income. Boards from Northstar, 
Compupro, Vector Graphic, Alpha Micro and some oddities. Also some Quantum 8" 
disk drives.

Paxton

From eric at brouhaha.com  Sat Oct  7 15:30:14 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:48 2005
Subject: CP/M BIOS setup
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010070911210.4592-100000@lanshark.lanminds.com>
	(cisin@xenosoft.com)
References: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010070911210.4592-100000@lanshark.lanminds.com>
Message-ID: <20001007203014.16546.qmail@brouhaha.com>

"Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <cisin@xenosoft.com> wrote:
> Earlier in this thread, Richard proposed gathering ALL the information
> form a bootable diskette by examining the BDOS.  Unfortunately, that is
> not quite feasable, since too much is done in the BIOS.

I think you're still not quite getting what Richard is really suggesting.

He's not proposing to figure out the parameters by looking at tables in
the BDOS.  As you correctly point out, that stuff is in the BIOS.

Richard's point is that on a bootable disk, some set of sectors contain
the BDOS code, which has known contents (for any specific DRI CP/M release).
The point is that some of the disk parameters can be worked out by matching
what sectors on the media contain what pieces of the BDOS code.

It may not tell you everything about the disk format, and it obviously
only works on bootable diskettes, but I think it is a good start.

Eric

From vcf at siconic.com  Sat Oct  7 14:33:20 2000
From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:48 2005
Subject: PC/XT and Kaypro 4
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010071232470.27754-100000@siconic.com>


Please reply to original sender.

Reply-To: badger@netwalk.com


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 14:46:41 -0400
From: Butch Clodfelter <badger@netwalk.com>
To: donate@vintage.org
Subject: Re:Find Home

	I am looking for a new home for my old IBM PC XT. It was manufactured in 
the early 80's with the 8088 processor. IT has two HD's  (10MB & 20MB) and 
two 360 Floppy Drives. I have the original manuals for it. The monitor has 
a 12' VGA color. DOS 3.1 was the operating system, with WP4.2, MP80. My 
copies of the licenses were damaged and so only have copies, not originals!
	If I find a museum where they will be used I also have a Kaypro 4 with 2.2 
CPM OS I will sell for $100.00. The Kaypro 4 has all the original manuals 
and Disks. Original cost = $3645.00 in 1984.
	If you know of who I can contact, or of a home for the IBM please let me know!

Thanks
Butch


Sellam                                 International Man of Intrigue and Danger
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...

                       VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
               San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
                    See http://www.vintage.org for details!



From richard at idcomm.com  Sat Oct  7 16:36:15 2000
From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:48 2005
Subject: CP/M BIOS setup
References: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010070911210.4592-100000@lanshark.lanminds.com>
Message-ID: <001901c030a6$9f9c5120$0500fea9@winbook>

Please see my remarks embedded in the quoted post below:

Dick

----- Original Message -----
From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) <cisin@xenosoft.com>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2000 10:45 AM
Subject: Re: CP/M BIOS setup


> Earlier in this thread, Richard proposed gathering ALL the information
> form a bootable diskette by examining the BDOS.  Unfortunately, that is

That's not what I meant at all.  I said it has to be bootable using the
standard DRI BDOS not because I'd USE the BDOS to locate features, but
rather because the DRI BDOS for plain-vanilla CP/M 2.2 is a fixed block of
code that's long enough that I can compare it with a reference copy of that
code in order to determine which sector contains the next bit of code.  That
will give me the sector interleave, skew, and track layout used on THAT
diskette's boot tracks.  I then would want a reasonably long file, also
standard and also long enough to use for finding out the same information
about the directory/data regions of the diskette.   At the point at which
I've located every successive 128-byte segment of, say, PIP or ASM, on the
data area, I should have enough information about THAT diskette to interpret
its directory, which, ostensibly, will lie in the area beyond the boot
tracks.

I leave the door open to examine the contents of the BIOS, simply because
the BDOS finds information there in order to return it via utilities such as
those written by several authors to demonstrate how monolithic the standard
CP/M interface to the hardware is.  I said plain-vanilla versions of CP/M
because it's not reasonable to be able to skin all the cats with the first
knife that becomes available.

Naturally, it's necessary to rule out systems that carry significant
portions of their hardware-software interface in EPROM.  What I'm after is a
way to read THIS (motioning to the one in the drive) diskette, making no
assumptions about any others.  Subsequently, it might be interesting to try
to read other diskettes native to a given system just to see whether they
are similar to the boot diskette.  Many systems have two different types,
arising simply from usage, i.e. one suitable for booting, and one suitable
for use as data diskettes.  The latter type is completely unsupported by the
method I propose to explore.

However, the same avenue I propose to use on a bootable diskette can be
applied, though at a later stage, to a data diskette.  Once one has a copy
of the boot diskette that has, by virtue of the limitations I've stated, the
complete BIOS on it as well as the portions necessary to to ascertain the
track and sector layout, the BIOS can be examined for whatever information
it contains that will help it to communicate with both the system hardware
and the BDOS.  Since that data MUST be present on a bootable diskette, I'm
operating under the assumption (possibly a weak one, but the only available
assumption, AFAIK) that if it's there for the BDOS to use, it is there.  It
doesn't have to be used on a system running the code.  It merely needs to be
in locations known by virtue of the standard implementation.

I doubt that it will be likely one can derive the disk parameters from a
diskette without the presence of known files, just to allow confirmation
that the files are arranged as one expects.  There have to be standard known
files present because one otherwise can't reach any conclusions about the
data region of the diskette.

> not quite feasible, since too much is done in the BIOS.  To his credit, he
> NOW says that the disk must have a substantial file or two, such as PIP,
> ASM, or MOVCPM.  That is correct.
>
I believe I pointed out the need for substantial (in length) files such as
PIP, that are easily recognizable by comparison, in my initial mention of
this proposal.
>
> Let's look at what is needed/desirable/useful for analyzing a disk format.
> Please bear with me for not always using DRIs terminology - there are a
> lot of alternate names for the same things.
>
> If there is access to a functioning machine, then the output of
> STAT DSK:
> provides a lot of what is needed.
>
> PHYSICAL FORMAT:
> Bytes per sector: physical read of diskette.  Watch out for differences in
> format between reserved tracks v data area
> Sectors per track: physical read.  Watch out for disk formats that include
> unused sectors (9 formatted sectors per track with 8 used!)
> Sides:  physical read.  Watch out for diskettes that have both sides
> formatted, but are only using one.
>
> Watch out for diskettes with 40 or 80 formatted tracks that use 35 or 77!
>
I'm not certain this one needs any attention.  If there's nothing there, it
doesn't need to be read.
>
> Watch out for a few WEIRD systems that reformat sectors as they use them!
>
That's a new one on me! . . . I wonder why anyone would do that unless it's
part of a copy-protections scheme or maybe an error scrubbing scheme.  After
all, reformatting isn't easy unless it's done a track at a time.  I
personally have never managed it.
>
> Watch out for aftermarket mods, such as alternate BIOSes - the diskette
> that you receive for a given machine might not always be representative of
> that machine.
>
Since we're out only to read THIS (pointing to the one in the drive)
diskette, what the system does with other diskettes isn't of much interest
for now.
>
> Watch out for SPELLING!  I once added in a format that I thought was
> spelled GROUPIL.  By the time that I found out that I had misread sloppy
> handwriting, 4 competing programs had copied the "GROUPIL" format!  There
> exists an INW format.  But some LNW formats are misidentified in some
> programs as INW.
>
I'm not chasing the same rabbit as you, here, so I don't know where a format
name comes in.
>
> Number of reserved tracks:  Look at sectors until you find something that
> LOOKS like a directory.  That could be automated.
>
> Side pattern:  (up side 0, down side 1/up 0 up 1/alternating/ etc)
> if not alternating, requires a disk that is over half full!  In THEORY, it

> might be determinable through exhaustive study of the BIOS and BDOS.  In
> reality, find a disk over half full.
>
> Records per block:  although theoretically determinable from exhaustive
> study of BIOS and BDOS, the way to determine it is to look at the
> directory entry for a file larger than one block.
>
> Bytes/bits used for block number:  look at directory entry for file
> larger than one block.
>
> Number of blocks represented in each directory entry:  in the case of 8
> records per block, look at directory entry for a file larger than 8
> blocks.
>
> Interleave:  need a file larger than a full track that is EITHER a known
> file (PIP, ASM, MOVCPM are good), OR one that is understandable (text

I don't go this far, since my propsed method requires only files the content
of which is known EXACTLY.  OTOH, this method can be made to work with human
intervention.  I'm looking for a way to exclude human intervention.  I
believe that if the computer for which a diskette is intended can deduce how
to read a diskette based solely on information contained on the diskette,
then another computer can figure it out as well, given the proper decision
tree on which to base its choices.  If the diskette doesn't contain all the
information, i.e. if some is in EPROM, or in some other way excluded from
the diskette itself, then it's likely all bets are off.  There are things
one can resonably deduce from one's knowledge about the OS, but other than
that, the human operator should not come into play.

> file, or machine language of a processor/mnemonics of which you are
> familiar.  If there is even a little text scattered in a file, you can
> "look for 1/2 a worm" by finding the beginning of a word at the end of a
> sector and the beginning at the beginning of another sector.
>
half-a-worm is not a pleasant thing to work with.
>
> With Richard's latest change to require a known file on the diskette, it
> is becoming more feasible.  But you don't always get that!  I always
> explain in detail what I need, and the critical importance of identifying
> the disk ("By the time that it arrives, I will have talked to a lot of
> other people, and forgotten the details, so please be SURE to label the
> disk with what format it is!")  Then, when the disk arrives, it is
> unlabelled, with a note that says nothing but: "Here's the disk we talked
> about".  It usually has no files on it, or one file of less than 100
> bytes.  Sometimes it will have 4 copies of that file.  Maybe there will
> be a printout of STAT (not STAT DSK:) from a different diskette.
>
I went back and looked at my first posts regarding this subject.  I'm not
sure what you mean by change.  The mention of a file, e.g. PIP, chosen
because it was pretty common to copy PIP to a diskette before copying
anything else to it, and because it is so commonly found on CP/M diskettes
in general, was certainly there.  It's necessary to have a known file
because otherwise you have no information to help you discern what the
layout of the data area of the diskette is.

Now, I'm not for splitting hairs about the statements made, since my
objective is to find a rigorous method for reading foreign diskettes in a
CP/M system, based on informaton of which we all have SOME, but which I
believe is "in-there" someplace if one simply takes time to contemplate the
problem.

My fundamental assertion is that if one computer can find all the
information necessary to read a diskette on that diskette, then another one
can do so too.  I don't see a shortage of information on the diskette, but
rather, I see something more on the order of a set of ten equations in eight
variables.  The equations are not necessarily in conflict, but which ones
one chooses greatly will effect the ease with which a solution can be
reached.
>
> --
> Fred Cisin                      cisin@xenosoft.com
> XenoSoft                        http://www.xenosoft.com
> PO Box 1236                     (510) 558-9366
> Berkeley, CA 94701-1236
>
>
>


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Sat Oct  7 16:42:57 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:48 2005
Subject: CP/M BIOS setup
Message-ID: <00a301c030a7$b27f1b00$b90e9a8d@ajp166>

From: Eric Smith <eric@brouhaha.com>

>He's not proposing to figure out the parameters by looking at tables in
>the BDOS.  As you correctly point out, that stuff is in the BIOS.


True the BIOS is the repository of the disk information but it's not all
as I've repeatedly said in the "tables".  It can be deeply embedded
in the code.

>Richard's point is that on a bootable disk, some set of sectors contain
>the BDOS code, which has known contents (for any specific DRI CP/M
release).
>The point is that some of the disk parameters can be worked out by
matching
>what sectors on the media contain what pieces of the BDOS code.


Sorry but the BDOS is usually in reserved tracks where things like skew
(aka intereave) is not always there or even the same density.

The BDOS other than being a known block of code contains none
of the disk specific code or layout.  Putting that in the bios is what
made cpm portable to different platforms.

>It may not tell you everything about the disk format, and it obviously
>only works on bootable diskettes, but I think it is a good start.


It's only a start.  to me as an bystander to this it's a interesting
exercize but one fraught with exceptions and limiations for it to
work reliabily.

Allison


From richard at idcomm.com  Sat Oct  7 18:01:33 2000
From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:48 2005
Subject: CP/M BIOS setup
References: <00a301c030a7$b27f1b00$b90e9a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <005001c030b2$89fc5020$0500fea9@winbook>

Thanks, Eric, for pointing out what I feared everybody had missed.

Allison, what I have tried to put as clearly as I know how, is that the
objective is to read THIS diskette.  I'm not trying to replicate the BIOS or
its functions, beyond the simple task of getting the data from THIS
diskette.  While it's true, one might want to write diskettes of a format
compatible with a foreign system, that's not what I want to do.

Let me explain:

I have, in the past few years, discarded literally THOUSANDS of diskettes
from the "old days" because, (A) needed the space they occupied, (B) they
were not in the best of shape, (C) I had MANY more diskettes than I figured
I'd ever need, (D) I figured I already had several other copies of what was
on them, or the content was not of interest (e.g. someone else's mailing
list, accounts history backups, etc) and (E) I no longer had the controller
needed to read those specific diskettes, and didn't want to attempt to get
another.

I still (ask WIll Jennings . . . he's seen "the pit") have LOTS of
diskettes, of which most are written on controllers I no longer have, nor
want.  Many of the diskettes I retained were copies of materials downloaded
from various RCPM sites in the early '80's, from the BDS CUG, and other
organizations whose work product was worthy of note, and a bunch of other
such materials.  It's possible I might want some of that data at some time
in the future, since I have LOTS of blank 8" media, and probably won't be
using that material just for the media.  It might be nice to be able to move
the data from the gradually deteriorating media where it now lives to a
somewhat more secure location on a hard disk.  THAT's why I am stirring this
bed of coals.

My hope was that enough information would bubble to the surface in kicking
this subject around, that I could find or <cringe> write my own code to
process some of these diskettes, not clearly marked as to their
controller-of-origin.  While some are clearly marked as to their content,
the format remains a mystery.  My Systems Group machine won't read them.

Does that make my objective clear enough?

I'm not trying to automate out of existence the "black-art" of creating a
floppy disk BIOS for CP/M, since there are already enough of them out there,
all different because nobody seems to have gone beyond just "getting it to
work, sorta ..."

OTOH, I WOULD like to see an automatic procedure for generating the
parameters for a hard disk of a given configuration, striking a resonable
balance between efficient use of capacity and directory space.  I've only
done this a time or two, otherwise having used information provided by
others, but have concluded that it's possible to do that automatically given
the geometry of the drive.  The only issue is integrating the deblocking
code seamlesly so it can handle both floppy and fixed disks sharing the same
memory buffer.  That introduces plent of opportunity for errors.

Dick



----- Original Message -----
From: ajp166 <ajp166@bellatlantic.net>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2000 3:42 PM
Subject: Re: CP/M BIOS setup


> From: Eric Smith <eric@brouhaha.com>
>
> >He's not proposing to figure out the parameters by looking at tables in
> >the BDOS.  As you correctly point out, that stuff is in the BIOS.
>
>
> True the BIOS is the repository of the disk information but it's not all
> as I've repeatedly said in the "tables".  It can be deeply embedded
> in the code.
>
> >Richard's point is that on a bootable disk, some set of sectors contain
> >the BDOS code, which has known contents (for any specific DRI CP/M
> release).
> >The point is that some of the disk parameters can be worked out by
> matching
> >what sectors on the media contain what pieces of the BDOS code.
>
>
> Sorry but the BDOS is usually in reserved tracks where things like skew
> (aka intereave) is not always there or even the same density.
>
> The BDOS other than being a known block of code contains none
> of the disk specific code or layout.  Putting that in the bios is what
> made cpm portable to different platforms.
>
> >It may not tell you everything about the disk format, and it obviously
> >only works on bootable diskettes, but I think it is a good start.
>
>
> It's only a start.  to me as an bystander to this it's a interesting
> exercize but one fraught with exceptions and limiations for it to
> work reliabily.
>
> Allison
>
>


From r.stek at snet.net  Sat Oct  7 18:27:01 2000
From: r.stek at snet.net (Robert Stek)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:48 2005
Subject: New find - OSI Challenger 4P
Message-ID: <NEEEJCNDEHGPLCKLAOKBKEJDCFAA.r.stek@snet.net>

Wheeee!  I got an OSI Challenger 4P today (does this complete my collection
of early micros with walnut sides?  I now have my Sol and NorthStar Horizon
and Challenger.)  Of course it would be even better if it worked or at least
I had some documentation.  A shielded cable terminating in an RCA phono plug
exits the cabinet.  The fan turns and apparently something is being output.
I tried a mono composite monitor with no luck, but channel 11 (?) seems to
give what could be a screen image with several inverse video blocks
scattered down the left side (we have a STRONG channel 3 here, and 4 is
garbage).  Pressing "return" shows no change in the screen, nor does
pressing a momentary-contact switch (home-brewed?) above the keyboard
labeled "Break Enable."

Since I never even saw one of these in the 70's, I could use some help.
Does anyone have docs they would be willing to copy for a reasonable fee?
Any other advice cheerfully accepted.

Bob Stek
Saver of Lost Sols


From jimw at agora.rdrop.com  Sat Oct  7 19:21:48 2000
From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:48 2005
Subject: NPR Morning Edition segment on VCF IV
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010071052230.27134-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001007171900.04e80850@agora.rdrop.com>

For anyone interested;

Just spoke with the reporter from NPR, and the segment with the interviews 
that were done at VCF IV will be running on tomorrow (Sunday) mornings 
edition of Morning Edition.

-jim
---
jimw@computergarage.org
The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Sat Oct  7 20:16:28 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:48 2005
Subject: CP/M BIOS setup
Message-ID: <00b601c030c6$8f6babf0$b90e9a8d@ajp166>

From: Richard Erlacher <richard@idcomm.com>


>Allison, what I have tried to put as clearly as I know how, is that the
>objective is to read THIS diskette.  I'm not trying to replicate the
BIOS or
>its functions, beyond the simple task of getting the data from THIS
>diskette.  While it's true, one might want to write diskettes of a
format
>compatible with a foreign system, that's not what I want to do.
>
>Let me explain:


Dont bother.  I understand.  I will even repeat it if you dont think so.

WHAT I'M SAYING is "THAT DISK" if you do successfully do this
will likely be the only one (or only ones like it) to work.  THere are
formats that resist and defy your assumptions.

>diskettes, of which most are written on controllers I no longer have,
nor
>want.  Many of the diskettes I retained were copies of materials
downloaded
>from various RCPM sites in the early '80's, from the BDS CUG, and other
>organizations whose work product was worthy of note, and a bunch of
other


been there done that and then some.  I only retain masters, clearly
marked
copies and others.

Much of the non commercial stuff is on the WC CP/M CDrom and there
is my personal archive.  AS I read disks I also convert them to a
standard
set of formats and over the years that has kept the accumulation of
massive
piles to a dull roar.

>controller-of-origin.  While some are clearly marked as to their
content,
>the format remains a mystery.  My Systems Group machine won't read them.


Likely because they are ISIS, DD CP/M written on Intel (using M^2FM).
Some of the soft sector controllers used USART in sync mode and have
really odd formats that the 177x can munge.

>Does that make my objective clear enough?


It was all the time.  You haven't heard the why nots.

>I'm not trying to automate out of existence the "black-art" of creating
a
>floppy disk BIOS for CP/M, since there are already enough of them out
there,
>all different because nobody seems to have gone beyond just "getting it
to
>work, sorta ..."


If you dont understand the odd things of BIOS design you can't possibly
understand how some of the truly strange formats result.

>OTOH, I WOULD like to see an automatic procedure for generating the
>parameters for a hard disk of a given configuration, striking a
resonable
>balance between efficient use of capacity and directory space.  I've
only


I've done it a lot and it's not innate that I apply a lot of experience
to
doing what must be a black art to some.  it's not.  most of what you
do will be highly biased by the controller, drive and CPU.

>others, but have concluded that it's possible to do that automatically
given
>the geometry of the drive.  The only issue is integrating the deblocking

>code seamlesly so it can handle both floppy and fixed disks sharing the
same
>memory buffer.  That introduces plent of opportunity for errors.


Ah now we are getting to something far more practical.  deblocking can
easily be automated but your dealing with a BIOS and the automation
has to be incorperated at build time.  IE: the BIOS has to be built to
permit adding MODULES that do functions with standardized interfaces
so adding a floppy or hard disk is easier.  Of course somethings can be
handled easier if you have memory to burn.  For example if you have
4k of ram you can copy as many sectors as will fit regardless of their
physical size and the code will figure out how to accomodate the
geometry by calculation.  In the end you will be reproducing a PC bios
without plug and play and limited to SCSI and IDE drives (not so bad)
as they are the only ones that can be queried directly for geometry
or better yet addressed as blocks.  Older non IDE controllers are
harder as their register or parameter passing schemes are a PITA.

Examples of controllers that are awkard and different from each
other in some or many ways.

  Teltek S100, basically two addresses with a packet messaging
   interface.  requires a drive specific setup based on geometry and
   other low level drive specific functions.  It will also deblock for
you
   if you pass logical sector info.

  Compupro Disk 3A  S100, DMA interface to ram, local z80 for
   processing and has involved setup.  requires a Buffer space
    in ram of sector size minimum, system has to deblock.

  WD1002-HDO  (host interface) like the others requires drive
    specific setup and does not deblock. Interface differs.
    local sector buffer only

 WD1002-wxa ISA-8  Not like WD1002-HDO but does have
    setup requiremnts and also deblocking is not done.
    has local sector buffer only.

 SCSI --> host board is like the WD1002hdo save you now
  have to deal with the SCSI layer.

SCSI --> SCSI drive (over 40-50mb) block addressed at
    512byte sector level, supplies geometry on query, larger
    drive have cache.

IDE (larger than 40-50mb class) caching or at least sector buffers,
    respond to geometry query on most.  Interface on later designs
    have variable geometry and block mode addressing to simplify
    matters.  Likely the easiest and most consistant to interface.

Thats a can of worms and worrying the right deblock, alloc or
directory size are the most trivial of problems to work out.

Now if you want ot make interfacing them easy and faster build
the bios so that it KNOWS NOTHING about the disk save for
a generic idea of a 8mb hard disk.

dpblk1:        DEFW        256       ; SPT  pass a ALLOC size chunk
                   DEFB          5       ; BSH  Values for 4k alloc
                   DEFB        31       ; BLM  blkmask
                   DEFB          3       ; EXM extent msk
                   DEFW     2047      ; DSM disk size in blocks (4k) -1
(8mb)
                   DEFB       512      ;  DRM allocated directory entries
(512 8k files =4mb)
                   DEFB     11110000b    ; directory alloc
                   DEFB     00000000b    ; byte 2
                   DEFW       00             ; check size (fixed disk)
                   DEFW         0             ; track offset  (do
partitoning elsewhere)
    chk1:       DEFS          0
    alv1:        DEFS       256             ; 2048 bits are needed to
store alloc map for 8mb.
    dirbuf1:    DEFS 128

this will pass as Setsector a binary value of 0-256 and in set track a
binary value
that is also in the range of 0-255.  If these two are concatenated the
result wil
be a 16bit value that is the relative sector for a 8mb disk.  If it is
right shifted twice
the result will be a block address (512byte) and a index to the correct
128 byte
sector within the block.  For a drive that can accept block (physical
sector)
addresses this will be all you need other than commands around it.  To
partition
that likely large drive do some 24 or 32 bit math and add 65536(8mb
partition)
to it to find the start of the next partition.  If the disk is only CHS
addressing take
that resulting 14bit block address and divide by # phys-sectors to get
the sector
wanted.  Then divide the residue for the cylinder and head.  For
partitioning just
add to the track number the required tracks to clear the 8mb space prior.

For deblocking anything works and the floppy deblocker is used.  There is
no
reason to deblock the hard disk seperatly from the floppy save for one
thing,
by keeping it seperate you will not slow the apparent floppy access due
to
thrashing.  This is a consideration of available space (ram) and if
banked
ram is avalable it's a good place for it.

DEBLOCKING IS caching at the physical sector level.  so if you deblock
groups of sectors of a total size that equals the ALLOC size you will
get performance.  the BDOS does directory access minimally at the alloc
level, a single read captures an alloc address so your committed access
is alloc/128 sectors.  If the sectors happen to be sequential on the
media
so much the better(there is a hint there about interleave).   All you
need
is space.  If your doing that make SPT equal to ALLOC (32 for 4k) and
just read the block starting at the address passed as track and use
sector as the index as the index into the deblock buffer.  Works
better for floppies if you buffer and deblock whole tracks.

Allison








From Glenatacme at aol.com  Sat Oct  7 21:37:32 2000
From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:48 2005
Subject: An article on the ZX-81 kits still being sold in the US
Message-ID: <32.b14e312.271137ec@aol.com>

In a message dated 10/07/2000 3:06:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
vcf@siconic.com writes:

> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/2/13785.html

Talk about shoddy journalism!  The Z80A included in these kits is certainly 
*not* a "1 MHz" processor, and the kits -- like all ZX81s -- have only 1 KB 
RAM onboard, not 2 KB as stated in the article.

Also, this piece claims that the kits were obtained from Timex when in fact 
they were not.  They were sold to Zebra by Sinclair Research USA when 
Sinclair discontinued sales in the USA.

>  These guys are a bunch of clowns.  They used to be selling these for
>  $29.95 until the eBay phenomenon hit.  Then they jacked up the price to
>  $99.95.  I guess they must be selling these at that price because they
>  haven't backed it down.

Zebra raised the price incrementally, from $29.95 to $39.95 to $49.95, then a 
big jump to $99.95.  The *big* increase occurred when Zebra sold a 
substantial portion of their inventory to Chris Cowley, head of Grok 
Developments (mentioned in the above article).  Cowley has to sell the kits 
for over $100 US in order to cover the cost of the kits plus freight and 
import duties, plus his profit.  So, Zebra just jacked up the US price to 
match.

Price fixing, anyone?

BTW, back in March I was on the phone with Stewart Newfeld, head of Zebra, 
and he mentioned some unusual high-res graphics boards that he had.  We 
settled on quantity and price, and I sent my payment.   Everything arrived 
except the HRG boards, but a note in the box stated that they would forward 
them "as soon as possible."  To date they haven't delivered, won't return my 
e-mails or phone calls, and still owe me $60 worth of merchandise.
  
>  Is an unassembled ZX-81 kit worth $99.95 to me?  Hell no.

Especially since the kits sold by Zebra do not include the original Sinclair 
BASIC manual or original assembly instructions (instructions are included -- 
they're just not the original issue).  Additionally, Zebra themselves sell 
these kits on Ebay for $50 - $70 all the time.

Clowns, indeed.

Glen
0/0

From apple at cmc.net  Sat Oct  7 22:39:44 2000
From: apple at cmc.net (Jack Noble)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:48 2005
Subject: New find - OSI Challenger 4P
Message-ID: <005401c030d9$7b385620$461c66ce@apple>

Your message reminded me of a common mod that was done on OSI machines to
avoid inadvertant resets caused by accidently hitting the "break" key.  Many
people installed a capacitor across this keyswitch so that it had to be held
down for a couple of seconds to reset the machine.  The screen would contain
random gibberish at power up and pushing the break key should give you the
"C/W/M" or "H/D/M" depending on the ROM pages selected for start up.
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Stek <r.stek@snet.net>
To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Date: Saturday, October 07, 2000 4:34 PM
Subject: New find - OSI Challenger 4P


>Wheeee!  I got an OSI Challenger 4P today (does this complete my collection
>of early micros with walnut sides?  I now have my Sol and NorthStar Horizon
>and Challenger.)  Of course it would be even better if it worked or at
least
>I had some documentation.  A shielded cable terminating in an RCA phono
plug
>exits the cabinet.  The fan turns and apparently something is being output.
>I tried a mono composite monitor with no luck, but channel 11 (?) seems to
>give what could be a screen image with several inverse video blocks
>scattered down the left side (we have a STRONG channel 3 here, and 4 is
>garbage).  Pressing "return" shows no change in the screen, nor does
>pressing a momentary-contact switch (home-brewed?) above the keyboard
>labeled "Break Enable."
>
>Since I never even saw one of these in the 70's, I could use some help.
>Does anyone have docs they would be willing to copy for a reasonable fee?
>Any other advice cheerfully accepted.
>
>Bob Stek
>Saver of Lost Sols
>


From foo at siconic.com  Sat Oct  7 21:49:09 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:48 2005
Subject: An article on the ZX-81 kits still being sold in the US
In-Reply-To: <32.b14e312.271137ec@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010071948120.28162-100000@siconic.com>

On Sat, 7 Oct 2000 Glenatacme@aol.com wrote:

> BTW, back in March I was on the phone with Stewart Newfeld, head of Zebra, 
> and he mentioned some unusual high-res graphics boards that he had.  We 
> settled on quantity and price, and I sent my payment.   Everything arrived 
> except the HRG boards, but a note in the box stated that they would forward 
> them "as soon as possible."  To date they haven't delivered, won't return my 
> e-mails or phone calls, and still owe me $60 worth of merchandise.

Use some of the tactics we outlined for Bob when he got screwed with that
faux Sorcerer.  These guys are apparently making too much money for you to
just let it slide.

Sellam                                International Man of Intrigue and Danger
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...

                       VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
               San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
                    See http://www.vintage.org for details!



From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com  Sun Oct  8 08:24:53 2000
From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:48 2005
Subject: Free in DC area: Unibus BA11's, Tape rack
Message-ID: <001008092453.2020265f@trailing-edge.com>

Cleaning out the basement, so the following are available:

1.  Two 10.5" high BA11 Unibus expansion boxes, with power supplies and
some sorts of backplanes.  Very clean condition.  Weight is 70 pounds or
so each.

2.  A large floor-standing tape storage rack.  Base is about 60 inches by
24 inches, stands about 36 inches high, has hangers for a few hundred
magtapes.  Does *not* disassemble.

You can pickup either or both in the Bethesda/Rockville MD area (on the
edge of the I-495 beltway), first-come, first-served.  Email for details/
scheduling.  If you get here and I'm in a good mood, you'll probably be offered
lots of other stuff :-).

Tim. (shoppa@trailing-edge.com)

From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com  Sun Oct  8 08:29:30 2000
From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:48 2005
Subject: PDP-11 Energizer bunny :-)
Message-ID: <001008092930.2020265f@trailing-edge.com>

Found while sorting through a box of old papers:

  http://www.trailing-edge.com/www/pdp11rabbit72.gif

Can anyone identify which magazine/issue it was originally
published in?  Since it references the introduction of the
Alpha, I'm guessing early-mid Lasnerian 1990's, and I seem to
recall that the "upgrade" mentioned is the PDP-11/93.

Tim.

From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com  Sun Oct  8 08:40:53 2000
From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:48 2005
Subject: NPR Morning Edition segment on VCF IV
Message-ID: <001008094053.2020265f@trailing-edge.com>

Jim wrote:

>Just spoke with the reporter from NPR, and the segment with the interviews 
>that were done at VCF IV will be running on tomorrow (Sunday) mornings 
>edition of Morning Edition.

Just heard it this morning (it happened about an hour and 28 minutes
into the program).  It seemed pretty well done, and a reasonably wide
variety of "classics" were mentioned by some of the regulars to this list.

My only complaint is that I didn't hear any references to this mailing list
or any relevant "classic computing" web sites.

If anyone has any loud complaints, I work about two blocks over (and a 
few hundred feet down) from NPR's Washington DC offices and I may be able
to volunteer to go there and protest over my lunch hour :-).

Tim.

From kevin at xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk  Sun Oct  8 10:39:10 2000
From: kevin at xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk (Kevin Murrell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:48 2005
Subject: TS05 Tape Drive Information
Message-ID: <AAEHLCCPPMCPNGLJGHIJGEPBCBAA.kevin@xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk>

Can anyone point me at a web source of information for a
Dec TS05 tape drive.

A scanned copy of the manuals would be wonderful :)

Kevin


From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com  Sun Oct  8 10:45:45 2000
From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:48 2005
Subject: TS05 Tape Drive Information
Message-ID: <001008114545.202022ae@trailing-edge.com>

* Can anyone point me at a web source of information for a
* Dec TS05 tape drive.

It's a rebadged Cipher F880.  I don't know of any web sources of
information, but you might look in any minicomputer rag like
_Processor_ to search the dozens of places that repair Cipher
1/2" tape drives and see if one of them is geographically near to
you.

Tim.

From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu  Sun Oct  8 12:29:40 2000
From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:48 2005
Subject: NPR Morning Edition segment on VCF IV
In-Reply-To: <001008094053.2020265f@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at "Oct 8, 0 09:40:53 am"
Message-ID: <200010081729.KAA29996@stockholm.ptloma.edu>

> Just heard it this morning (it happened about an hour and 28 minutes
> into the program).  It seemed pretty well done, and a reasonably wide
> variety of "classics" were mentioned by some of the regulars to this list.

Who eventually made the cut to broadcast?

-- 
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
 Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. -- Salvor Hardin -----------

From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com  Sun Oct  8 12:32:54 2000
From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:48 2005
Subject: FS/FT: DEC Server
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001008103254.0099c210@pop.sttl.uswest.net>

	More specifically, an 'ApplicationDEC 433MP.' This is a two-CPU 1990/91
vintage 486 system, EISA bus for expansion, and a somewhat weird
proprietary bus for the two CPU boards made by Corollary (bought out by
Intel some time ago).

	The system's in clean shape, both electrically and cosmetically, and is
known to be runnable on at least NetBSD/i386 (if in single-CPU mode). Has
twin SCSI buses inside. Includes 16MB RAM (maxed out), a CD-ROM drive, and
a QIC cartridge tape drive that, if I recall, is a 525-MB capable. Accepts
standard SCSI hard drives, but you'll need to either find the goofy little
feet that DEC used for those keyholed trays, or invent something yourself.

	First person to hand me $20.00 cash gets it. I'd prefer not to ship: This
one's big, bulky, and fairly hefty. Would also be willing to trade for
MicroVAX III (KA650) or higher CPU and memory board(s).

	Thanks much.


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies
http://www.bluefeathertech.com  // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com
Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 (Extra class as of June-2K)
"I'll get a life when someone demonstrates to me that it would be
superior to what I have now..." (Gym Z. Quirk, aka Taki Kogoma).

From vcf at siconic.com  Sun Oct  8 11:35:38 2000
From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: Archive of Weekend Edition VCF segment online
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010080930530.28899-100000@siconic.com>


You can hear the segment about the VCF on the Weekend Edition show by
going here:

http://search.npr.org/cf/cmn/cmnpd01fm.cfm?PrgDate=10%2F8%2F2000&PrgID=10

Scroll down to "Vintage Computers".

Requires Real Player, unless there's a way to get the lame Windows player
to work with .RMM files.  Now I have to go download another crappy
application just to listen to this.

Sellam                                 International Man of Intrigue and Danger
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...

                       VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
               San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
                    See http://www.vintage.org for details!


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Oct  8 12:38:38 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: TS05 Tape Drive Information
In-Reply-To: <AAEHLCCPPMCPNGLJGHIJGEPBCBAA.kevin@xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk> from "Kevin Murrell" at Oct 8, 0 04:39:10 pm
Message-ID: <m13iKPK-000IyJC@p850ug1>

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From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Sun Oct  8 13:03:23 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: TS05 Tape Drive Information
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB1CC@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>

> * Can anyone point me at a web source of information for a
> * Dec TS05 tape drive.
> 
> It's a rebadged Cipher F880.  I don't know of any web sources of
> information, but you might look in any minicomputer rag like
> _Processor_ to search the dozens of places that repair Cipher
> 1/2" tape drives and see if one of them is geographically near to
> you.

You can find the document:

	Cipher F880 Magnetic Tape Transport
	Volume 1
	Operation and Maintenance

at this link:

	http://www.retrobytes.org/docs/cipher/F880/

hth,
-doug q

From rdd at smart.net  Sun Oct  8 15:17:16 2000
From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: TS05 Tape Drive Information
In-Reply-To: <001008114545.202022ae@trailing-edge.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010081615060.32394-100000@smarty.smart.net>

On Sun, 8 Oct 2000 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote:
> * Can anyone point me at a web source of information for a
> * Dec TS05 tape drive.
> 
> It's a rebadged Cipher F880.  I don't know of any web sources of

...and a crippled Cipher F880 as well. :-(  Does anyone here know why
DEC changed it to not work at 3200BPI?

--
Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of
All Rights Reserved            Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to
rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd   a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD 





From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com  Sun Oct  8 15:47:07 2000
From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: Jumpers Needed: TQK70
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001008134707.009bf620@pop.sttl.uswest.net>

CC to Port-VAX and classiccmp...

	If someone's got the jumper setting chart for the TQK70 tape drive
controller (M7559 if I'm not mistaken), would you be so kind as to post it
in ASCII form, FAX it to me, or perhaps scan it and turn it into a .PDF?

	Thanks much!


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies
http://www.bluefeathertech.com  // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com
Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 (Extra class as of June-2K)
"I'll get a life when someone demonstrates to me that it would be
superior to what I have now..." (Gym Z. Quirk, aka Taki Kogoma).

From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com  Sun Oct  8 17:13:23 2000
From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: TS05 Tape Drive Information
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010081615060.32394-100000@smarty.smart.net
 >
References: <001008114545.202022ae@trailing-edge.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001008151323.009be5d0@pop.sttl.uswest.net>

At 16:17 08-10-2000 -0400, R.D. Davis wrote:

>...and a crippled Cipher F880 as well. :-(  Does anyone here know why
>DEC changed it to not work at 3200BPI?

	Probably so they could sell higher-density drives for more dinero. ;-)

	However, I'll bet a TS05 would become a standard F880 if you stuck EPROMs
from a standard F880 into it.


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies
http://www.bluefeathertech.com  // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com
Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 (Extra class as of June-2K)
"I'll get a life when someone demonstrates to me that it would be
superior to what I have now..." (Gym Z. Quirk, aka Taki Kogoma).

From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Sun Oct  8 18:44:35 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: ID this Data General
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001008184435.34b78d6c@mailhost.intellistar.net>

  I picked up a small Data General computer this weekend. Can anyone id it?
 It's about 8" high x 8" deep x 2 foot long. It has a tape drive, one
floppy drive, one dummy floppy drive and a (removed) 5 1/4" hard drive. One
the back it says "Desktop Series". There are also labels that say "CPU
W/FIS" and "CPU 256K" on the back. Four of the sections are labled "E
8712-N", "E 6336", "E 6301" and "e 6270-2" on the back. One of the odd
things about it is that it's wired for 220 volt AC power and doesn't appear
to be configurable for 110 VAC. (It only requires 5 and 3.15 Amps.) It has
two power inputs on the back. I posted pictures at
"www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/nova-dt/dg-back.jpg",
"www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/nova-dt/dg-frnt.jpg",
"www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/nova-dt/dg-c.jpg".

   Joe


From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com  Sun Oct  8 18:40:05 2000
From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: TS05 Tape Drive Information
Message-ID: <001008194005.2020268f@trailing-edge.com>

*> * Can anyone point me at a web source of information for a
*> * Dec TS05 tape drive.
*> 
*> It's a rebadged Cipher F880.  I don't know of any web sources of

*...and a crippled Cipher F880 as well. :-(  Does anyone here know why
*DEC changed it to not work at 3200BPI?

Not *all* F880's work at 3200 BPI; a good chunk of them have the "HI
DENS" button on the front panel, but it doesn't do anything.  (Well, in
diagnostic mode it has some functionality, but otherwise it doesn't.)

3200 BPI was never particularly common anyway.  And the TS05/F880, while
cheap, was *never* a performance star.  Many of the minicomputers they were
hooked to were hard-pressed to keep them streaming at 1600BPI, much less
3200BPI.  And once you drop out of streaming, there's a huge performance
loss.

Tim.

From foo at siconic.com  Sun Oct  8 22:39:43 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: ID this Data General
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001008184435.34b78d6c@mailhost.intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010082039030.29507-100000@siconic.com>

On Sun, 8 Oct 2000, Joe wrote:

>   I picked up a small Data General computer this weekend. Can anyone id it?

I have one of these.  It's a mid-80s business-type system.  Don't have
more info for you.

Sellam                                International Man of Intrigue and Danger
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...

                       VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
               San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
                    See http://www.vintage.org for details!



From wmsmith at earthlink.net  Mon Oct  9 00:19:41 2000
From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: Archive of Weekend Edition VCF segment online
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010080930530.28899-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <013d01c031b0$89f34300$71a0b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net>

> You can hear the segment about the VCF on the Weekend
Edition show by
> going here:
>
>
http://search.npr.org/cf/cmn/cmnpd01fm.cfm?PrgDate=10%2
F8%2F2000&PrgID=10
>
> Scroll down to "Vintage Computers".
>
> Requires Real Player, unless there's a way to get the
lame Windows player
> to work with .RMM files.  Now I have to go download
another crappy
> application just to listen to this.
>
> Sellam                                 International
Man of Intrigue and Danger

I recorded the 16-bit stream as a .wav file and
converted it to a 32-bit mono mp3.  You download from:

http://home.earthlink.net/~wmsmith/VCF4/

File is about 1.4M.  Sound is somewhat tinny.


From foo at siconic.com  Mon Oct  9 02:13:32 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: NPR Morning Edition segment on VCF IV
In-Reply-To: <200010081729.KAA29996@stockholm.ptloma.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010082030270.29507-100000@siconic.com>

On Sun, 8 Oct 2000, Cameron Kaiser wrote:

> Who eventually made the cut to broadcast?

Wayne Smith, Curt Vendel, Hans Franke, Christine Finn, Jim Willing.

Where did Jeff (the narrator) get the idea that only thirty IBM 5100s are
floating around?  There are way more than that in circulation.  Of course,
there were other erroneous facts that he slipped into the narrative but
that's to be expected of clueless news people.

Sellam                                International Man of Intrigue and Danger
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...

                       VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
               San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
                    See http://www.vintage.org for details!







From enrico.badella at softstar.it  Mon Oct  9 03:51:05 2000
From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: TS05 Tape Drive Information
References: <001008194005.2020268f@trailing-edge.com>
Message-ID: <39E186F9.D72C1172@softstar.it>



CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote:
> 
> 3200 BPI was never particularly common anyway.  And the TS05/F880, while
> cheap, was *never* a performance star.  Many of the minicomputers they were

You are correct; they are also great destroyers of tapes, at least mine that
came from an Olivetti machine. Thanks to it I lost one of my original 
iAPX 432 tapes. 8-[] GRRRRR

e.

========================================================================
Enrico Badella                       email:   enrico.badella@softstar.it
Soft*Star srl                                 eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it
InterNetworking Specialists          tel:     +39-011-746092            
Via Camburzano 9                     fax:     +39-011-746487
10143 Torino, Italy

  Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software,
  manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals
==========================================================================

From agraham at ccat.co.uk  Mon Oct  9 04:36:19 2000
From: agraham at ccat.co.uk (Adrian Graham)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: An article on the ZX-81 kits still being sold in the US
Message-ID: <00Oct9.103625bst.46096@gatekeeper.ccat.co.uk>

Profiteering at its worst IMO. I got mine for $45 so to see the price double
in less than a year is just plain greed.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vintage Computer Festival [mailto:vcf@siconic.com]
> Sent: 07 October 2000 20:21
> To: Classic Computers Mailing List
> Subject: An article on the ZX-81 kits still being sold in the US
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/2/13785.html
> 
> These guys are a bunch of clowns.  They used to be selling these for
> $29.95 until the eBay phenomenon hit.  Then they jacked up 
> the price to
> $99.95.  I guess they must be selling these at that price because they
> haven't backed it down.
> 
> Is an unassembled ZX-81 kit worth $99.95 to me?  Hell no.
> 
> Sellam                                 International Man of 
> Intrigue and Danger
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------
> Looking for a six in a pile of nines...
> 
>                        VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
>                San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
>                     See http://www.vintage.org for details!
> 

From at258 at osfn.org  Mon Oct  9 08:39:56 2000
From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: ID this Data General
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010082039030.29507-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.1001009093834.7691A-100000@osfn.org>

UUeren't they called Desktops?  I think the number of modules could be 
varied, too because I've seen some that uuere longer, others shorter.

On Sun, 8 Oct 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote:

> On Sun, 8 Oct 2000, Joe wrote:
> 
> >   I picked up a small Data General computer this weekend. Can anyone id it?
> 
> I have one of these.  It's a mid-80s business-type system.  Don't have
> more info for you.
> 
> Sellam                                International Man of Intrigue and Danger
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Looking for a six in a pile of nines...
> 
>                        VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
>                San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
>                     See http://www.vintage.org for details!
> 
> 
> 

M. K. Peirce
Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc.
215 Shady Lea Road,
North Kingstown, RI 02852

"Casta est qui nemo rogavit."
              
              - Ovid


From jfoust at threedee.com  Mon Oct  9 08:51:54 2000
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: An article on the ZX-81 kits still being sold in the US
In-Reply-To: <00Oct9.103625bst.46096@gatekeeper.ccat.co.uk>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001009085105.026b45a0@pc>

At 10:36 AM 10/9/00 +0100, Adrian Graham wrote:
>Profiteering at its worst IMO. I got mine for $45 so to see the price double
>in less than a year is just plain greed.

Greed is good.  It's what prevented that supposed warehouse
full of computers from entering the nearest landfill.

- John


From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk  Mon Oct  9 09:00:59 2000
From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: ID this Data General
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001008184435.34b78d6c@mailhost.intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <SIMEON.10010091559.L@boukouki.uwe.ac.uk>


On Sun, 08 Oct 2000 18:44:35 -0500 Joe 
<rigdonj@intellistar.net> wrote:
>   I picked up a small Data General computer this weekend. Can anyone id it?

No, but I can tell you that it looks just like the machine 
that ran the Bristol central library issue desk in the 
early 1990s.

--
John Honniball
Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk
University of the West of England


From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com  Mon Oct  9 09:18:42 2000
From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: ID this Data General
Message-ID: <F99GtS79AX7Ur5qWn3G00000917@hotmail.com>

It's a Desktop Generation, I can find out which model fairly easily. 
Basically, it's from the early to mid 80's, and it contains both a 
microEclipse processor and an i8086, it can run both AOS and CP/M-86 
simultaneously. I may be able to get manuals and software for it too.

Will J
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.


From THETechnoid at home.com  Mon Oct  9 08:13:19 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: ID this Data General
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001008184435.34b78d6c@mailhost.intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <20001009142232.JNYY4031.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

You have a micro-nova (nova 3 ish?) machine of the "Desktop Generation"
series.  It will run RDOS and maybe AOS and AOS/VS. It is a 16bit
mini-micro computer that, if outfitted for it, can support a number of
dumb terminals.  It also has the capability to run MSDOS as a task under
RDOS if you have the PC-compatible card installed.  I think the machine is
maxed at 512kb (not including ram on PC card).

This series is modular - each module looks a lot like a DG 6311 series
cart tape unit.  The modules are bolted together which gives it it's
distinct look. The tape drive is a DC300 type and stores appx 20mb on a
tape (more like 15mb really).  New carts are hard to find.  If you really
really need a some, let me know as I have a few spares.  Since I got my
9track drive, I've left off the 6311 cart unit (9track is much faster in
most cases).  

If you need documentation, operating system carts, or replacement/upgrade
hardware, Ed Kirby at Computer Parts Barn has at least one complete unit
available which has the msdos pc card installed.

There are allmost no DG machines (excepting the very largest ones) which
require 220.  Generally, it is a simple matter of a set of jumper wires on
the PS that dictate the input voltage.  Check with Ed on that.

IIRC, the hard disk is an ST506/412 compatible type.  My experience with
my Eclipse MV4000dc is that the systems are very picky about what drive(s)
they will accept.  Ed should be able to help you with that as well.

Rdos is a robust, multi-user, multitasking, Real-time operating system. 
AOS and AOS/VS are robust Unix-like operating systems which came later. 
I've little sticktime with RDOS but lots with AOS, AOS/VS, and AOS/VS II -
the 32 bit version of AOS/VS.  IIRC, DG started selling the Nova sans
operating system.  DG quickly realized that customers wanted an operating
system and so wrote and continually upgraded RDOS.

RDOS was the subject of suits.  Other companies making Nova clones wanted
to bundle them with the DG operating system.  DG balked and was sued for
'tying' thier operating system with thier hardware.  DG won the suit as
did they with a similar, later suit regarding thier nova/eclipse Advanced
Diagnostic EXerciser operating system. Under questionable circumstances,
the clone maker's building burned? and the company was later aquired by
DG.  Interestingly, this ADEX suit was cited by Microsoft in it's recent
antitrust defense as regards 'tying' MSIE to Windows.

Probably the best resource for tech support on nova hardware is Chris
Kennedy - right here on the list or Chris@Maincoon.com.


Ed Kirby (edcpb@email.com)
16 London Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803

In <3.0.1.16.20001008184435.34b78d6c@mailhost.intellistar.net>, on
10/09/00 
   at 09:13 AM, Joe <rigdonj@intellistar.net> said:

>"www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/nova-dt/dg-back.jpg",

Regards and good luck,

Jeff
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From wrm at ccii.co.za  Mon Oct  9 14:49:16 2000
From: wrm at ccii.co.za (Wouter de Waal)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: OT collecting old pinballs
Message-ID: <200010091949.RAA31784@ccii.co.za>

10 years old? Foo, that's new :-)

I have a 1975 Gottlieb Top Score I'm restoring. Looking to buy
a new (1984) Gottlieb Haunted House. And I have half a share
in a 1968 Bally Alligator.

All of those are considered fairly new pinballs :-)

Wouter
www.retro.co.za <-- some pictures, not much...


From foo at siconic.com  Mon Oct  9 10:26:04 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: ID this Data General
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.1001009093834.7691A-100000@osfn.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010090824400.30159-100000@siconic.com>

On Mon, 9 Oct 2000, Merle K. Peirce wrote:

> UUeren't they called Desktops?  I think the number of modules could be 
> varied, too because I've seen some that uuere longer, others shorter.

Did you forget to pay the rent on your "w" key again, Merle?

Yes, modules could be added or removed as desired.  There were hard drive,
tape drive, memory, etc. modules.

Sellam                                International Man of Intrigue and Danger
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...

                       VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
               San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
                    See http://www.vintage.org for details!



From rdd at smart.net  Mon Oct  9 12:04:53 2000
From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: OT collecting old pinballs
In-Reply-To: <200010091949.RAA31784@ccii.co.za>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010091247220.18738-100000@smarty.smart.net>


Now, this is a most curious topic.  I'll bet that when you pinball
collectors tell people that you collect pinballs you get some very
strange looks; perhaps stranger looks than I got nearly a decade ago
whenver I mentioned that I collected computers.  How do you tell the
pinballs apart?  When you collect one, how do you know what type of
machine it really came from, or that it really wasn't recently
manufactured?  What if someone accidentally lets all the pinballs
loose on the floor - would you ever be able to tell which was which?
Wouldn't something such as shirt-button collecting be easier?
Inquiring minds want to know! :-)

On Mon, 9 Oct 2000, Wouter de Waal wrote:
> 10 years old? Foo, that's new :-)
> 
> I have a 1975 Gottlieb Top Score I'm restoring. Looking to buy
> a new (1984) Gottlieb Haunted House. And I have half a share
> in a 1968 Bally Alligator.
> 
> All of those are considered fairly new pinballs :-)

Well, they are older than my car, but they don't seem very old.  After
all, it seems to me that pinballs should not wear out for a very,
very, long time, and, when do they do wear out, antique or not, is
there any reasonable way of restoring them?  Doesn't it just make more
sense to just put new pinballs in the pinball machines? ;-)

-RDD (who doesn't understand why a car that's only 28 year old can
be called an antique)

--
Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of
All Rights Reserved            Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to
rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd   a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD 





From rdd at smart.net  Mon Oct  9 12:16:05 2000
From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: ID this Data General
In-Reply-To: <F99GtS79AX7Ur5qWn3G00000917@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010091307210.18738-100000@smarty.smart.net>

On Mon, 9 Oct 2000, Will Jennings wrote:
> It's a Desktop Generation, I can find out which model fairly easily. 
> Basically, it's from the early to mid 80's, and it contains both a 
> microEclipse processor and an i8086, it can run both AOS and CP/M-86 
> simultaneously. I may be able to get manuals and software for it too.

Speaking of the Eclipse processors, does anyone know where I can
obtain a machine running AOS/VS?  Years ago, I worked with a Data
General Eclipse MV/10,000 machine running AOS/VS, and it was so much
fun that I photocopied all of the AOS/VS manuals in case I ever
obtained one of those machines.... heck, I had to do something useful
to keep myself occupied while waiting to change backup tapes, right?
(yes, my employer did give me permission to use the copy machine, and
I used my own paper)

Note: I'm looking for a machine running the 16-bit version of the OS
which prints "Nothing happens." in response to XYZZY as opposed to the
less interesting "twice as much happens" message that the 32-bit
AOS/VS produces.  Unfortunately, I don't have room for a full
MV/10,000 sized machine with racks for the tape drive and disk drives.

--
Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of
All Rights Reserved            Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to
rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd   a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD 





From lgwalker at look.ca  Mon Oct  9 15:31:42 2000
From: lgwalker at look.ca (Lawrence Walker)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: Screeching 5 1/4 FDD
In-Reply-To: <000d01c03009$77c7de00$5a9e72d1@cobweb.net>
References: <Pine.SCO.4.20.0010051335070.6246-100000@crash.cts.com>
Message-ID: <39E1C8BE.18682.8993523@localhost>

> 
> -> On Thu, 5 Oct 2000, Lawrence Walker wrote:
> ->
> -> >  I have a hard to replace dsdd floppy disk that produced a
> -> > screeching noise while attempting to read it on a win98 box under
> -> > Dos using  a Dos program.
> 
> The screeching is caused by lack of lubricant on the disk surfaces. 
> The drag caused by this will sometimes slow the disk rotation enough
> to cause errors, even though enough of the original disk surface
> remains to allow reading.
> 
> -> >I quickly removed it and tried to read it
> -> > on another Dos box also with a HDFDD. No screech but only the ->
> > directory was readable, not the contents. I checked the original ->
> > FDD again using a scrap dsdd floppy and had no trouble with it. -> >
>  Anyone have any thoughts as to what would have caused this ? -> ->
> Whenever I have heard that horrid squeal, it has been followed with
> the -> disappearance of the magnetic media on a track or cylinder.
> 
> 
> 
> Whenever I've had this problem occur it has been caused by improper
> storage of the subject disk, usually in an area of high humidity and
> warm temperature.  When the disk surface shows a white
> splotching/spotting, lighter brown splotching or other discernible
> discoloration, it is caused by a mold or fungus that eats away the
> lubrication from the disk surface.  This splotching can cover large
> areas and be very noticeable or it may be hard to discern.  It may
> cover the entire surface of the disk, or it might only be seen in the
> head slots.  If the rotational position of the disk has not been
> disturbed since its removal from storage, rotate it 1/2 the width of
> the head slot and look for a difference in coloration on the magnetic
> surfaces.
> 
 There does seem to be a slight discoloration in spots. What was 
the original lubrication comprised of. Was it just something 
naturally occuring in the oxide ?

> I've come up with a solution (no pun intended) that will usually allow
> the data to be recovered if the disk isn't too badly damaged, like Don
> mentions (above).  This procedure also applies to 3.5" disks.  Examine
> the surface of the floppy before you put it in a drive for the first
> time, especially if it has been stored in a humid, warm area or if you
> don't know where it has been stored.  Look for the splotching.  If it
> is present, then be ready to immediately make a copy the first time
> you insert the floppy into a drive. You may only have this one chance.
> 
> Apply some 91% (non-scented) or preferably 99% Isopropyl Alcohol to
> both sides of the disk in the head slot area.  You want the alcohol to
> be absorbed onto the anti-friction liner of the floppy jacket, and you
> want enough of it so that it lasts through the reading/copying
> process. It may help to pucker the jacket to aid in the absorption of
> the fluid. Rotate the disk inside of the jacket enough that you are
> sure it is thoroughly wetted.  Don't wet it so much that fluid is
> dripping off, though. If it is, shake off the excess, head slots away
> from you. The dripping and slinging of alcohol inside the disk drive
> mechanism is not good for the lubricated parts inside nor for the
> powered up electronics. INSURE EVERYTHING IS READY TO READ/COPY.  Now,
> insert floppy and quickly perform the read/copy.  I highly recommended
> that you have two floppy drives for doing this, unless you can read or
> copy the diskette in one pass.  If not, you may have to wet the floppy
> more than once.
> 
> If you get errors while reading, (S)kip or (I)gnore them if (R)etry
> doesn't work on the first couple of retries. The alcohol evaporates
> quickly, and you risk destroying areas of the disk that may have been
> readable had the alcohol remained.
> 
> The alcohol accomplishes several things.  It acts as a replacement for
> the missing lubrication, it helps scrub the fungus residue from the
> disk surface (which ends up on the jacket liner), it protects the
> heads from the abrasion of the molded areas and it keeps the heads
> flushed during the data recovery process.  Due to the lubrication, the
> diskette will also rotate at the proper speed and timing/sync caused
> errors are eliminated.
> 
> Alcohol is fairly inert in respect to the plastics used in many floppy
> drives.  Also, if the drive used in this process is single sided,
> alcohol will not weaken the adhesive commonly used to attach the
> pressure pad.
> 
> I've found that the best type of floppy storage for preventing this
> lubricant eating fungus, other than a proper storage environment, is
> an airtight container.  Ziplock type bags work well.
> 
> Bill
> 
> whdawson
> 
> 
 Thanks Bill. This is just what I was looking for.
 I have an old Xerox 51/4 cleaning kit with spare cleaning disk
issues which uses isopropyl. Perhaps using that first on the fdd will
clean the heads and also leave a little on the heads for better 
lubrication. I'll also use a little on the disk itself as you suggest.
 This set was one that I acquired recently, so I don't know under 
what conditions it was stored. Seems like I'll have to check some 
of my older disks as well even tho my place is not especially hot or 
humid. I have seen splotches occasionally on disks but just 
considered it water or alcohol residue like you often have on old 
audio records.

 Great info, the cc m-l comes through again.

ciao		larry




Reply to:
lgwalker@look.ca

From lgwalker at look.ca  Mon Oct  9 15:31:42 2000
From: lgwalker at look.ca (Lawrence Walker)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: mac serial pinouts
In-Reply-To: <m13hc1A-000IyNC@p850ug1>
References: <39DD2483.8240.AA2F3F@localhost> from "Lawrence Walker" at Oct 6, 0 01:01:55 am
Message-ID: <39E1C8BE.3704.89934CE@localhost>


> > > > Can anyone tell me which pins (and I don't know the numbering
> > > > scheme, so please include that) are transmit, receive, and gnd
> > > > on a Mac 8-pin mini-din port? 
> > > 
> > > The pinout I have numbers the pins like this : 
> > > 
> > >     o   o   o
> > >     8   7   6
> > >   o      o    o
> > >   5      4    3
> > >       o   o
> > >       2   1
> > > 
> > > Looking into the socket.
> > > 
> > > The pinout is : 
> > > 1 Handshake output
> > > 2 Handshake (or external clock) input
> > > 3 Tx Data -
> > > 4 Ground
> > > 5 Rx Data -
> > > 6 Tx Data +
> > > 7 No Connection
> > > 8 Rx Data +
> 
> [...]
> 
> >  A problem exists with Mac cables. Unless you're using the newer 
> > hispeed cable you can't connect to your ISP even tho it seems to
> > test ok with a terminal program. I ran across this problem in trying
> > 
> 
> It appaers that a hispeed cable is one that links pin 7 on the Mac to
> CD (pin 8 o na DB25 RS232 connector), right?
> 
> > to hook my Mac up. I fussed and fumed over it for about a month
> > before stumbling across the solution.
> >  There is nothing to physically indicate any differences between the
> > 2 cables. A little.Practical Peripherals file explains it as follows:
> > 
> >  The Macintosh has too few pins for a full RS-232 implementation. 
> > The RS-23 standard has 25 pins, however, most Mac ports have 
> > only 8 pins. The following pins are needed when talking to a high-
> 
> However, very few systems use more than 8 or 9 of those pins (the PC 9
> pin serial port works simply because 9 signals is enough for
> asynchronous links). 
> 
> On the other hand, the Mac cuts down the number of signals available
> because it uses RS422 differential signals for TxD and RxD (so 2 pins
> for each of these).
> 
> [...]
> 
> >  Here's the pin outs for that cable:
> > 
> >  Function (Mac)  Function (RS-232)   Pin (Mac)   Pin (RS-232)
> >  Receive data     Receive data             5                   3
> >  Send data         Send data                3                    2
> >  Ground             Ground                   4 & 8               7
> >  HSKi                CTS                         2                   5 
> >  HSKo               RTS & DTR              1                  4 &20
> >  GPi                  CD                          7                    8
> > 
> > Unfortunately, not all Macs support Pin 7 (GPi) thus leaving us with
> > keeping CD on at all times. Also, since DTR is tied to RTS a high-
> 
> Yes, and that is a problem. The Mac+ (which is the machine I have
> documentation on) has no connection to pin 7 on either of its serial
> ports. I've pulled a machine apart to check and that pin goes nowhere.
> 
> So if you use a hispeed cable on a Mac+ and possibly other older Macs
> (this is classiccmp, after all, where people use older machines) then
> you'll have the same problem as if you didn't wire up CD at all. The
> CD signal will go nowhere.
> 
> If you can manage without CD (or any other signal going in on pin 7 of
> the Mac serial port) then it's a good idea to do so IMHO.
> 
> -tony
> 
 The whole port thing on the Mac is a real can of worms. On 
reading your post I went scurrying to my puter specs and tips 
directory and computer books and my head is still spinning.
 Aside from the variance of connectors; the m.128-512 with 
DB(DE?)9, the Mac+ - Mac ll(?) with 8pin mini-DINs and the later
models with 9pin mini-DINs not to mention the ethernet AUUI 15
or the abortive HDI-45 monitor port and the cabling problem, you 
have to contend with Apples nominclature. I have various Macs
including a 512,+, SE, IIci,and LCIII, as well as various Apple
printers. Labeling the cables would seem to be my best solution. 

The 9pin miniDIN adds a +5 v source on pin9 but the sockets are 
backward compatible. The hi-speed cable I use is an 8pin miniDIN.

  My PowerMac gives these specs:
 
     Pin    Name                  Function
     ---    ----                  --------
    1     SCLK(out)             Reset pod or get pod attention
     2     Sync(in)/SCLK(in)     Serial clock from pod
     3     TxD-                  Transmit -
     4     Gnd/shield            Ground
     5     RxD-                  Receive -
     6     TxD+                  Transmit +
     7     Wakeup/TxHS     Wake up CPU or do DMA handshake
     8     RxD+                  Receive +
     9     +5 V                  Power to pod (350 mA maximum)

So it uses the previously not-used pin 7 with no reference to Carrier 
Detect, unless that's what they mean with "wake up CPU".
 And (of course !) Apple uses new names for it's ports since HSK 
didn't catch on. I guess a "pod" is a serial device not something 
that grows on vines or a space capsule.  :^)

 I've got about a dozen or so Mac books except the reputedly "best"
Larry Pina one, and none of them mention this problem.
 I've also got a NEXT which IIRC uses RS423 prot. but has a 
similiar miniDIN. These guys really keep the cable manufacturers 
busy.  Again the specs are hard to find. Is there such a thing as a
repositry of cable connection specs ?

ciao		larry





Reply to:
lgwalker@look.ca

From lgwalker at look.ca  Mon Oct  9 15:31:42 2000
From: lgwalker at look.ca (Lawrence Walker)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: VCF 4.0
In-Reply-To: <200010061357.GAA16278@stockholm.ptloma.edu>
References: <v04210103b6036fab088a@[157.178.130.128]> from Bob Brown at "Oct 6, 0 07:02:20 am"
Message-ID: <39E1C8BE.538.8993500@localhost>



> > How bout putting it in the midwest (maybe chicago area) so it can be
> > easily accessed from either coast?
> 
> You call that easy? :-P
> 
> -- 
.Well compared to 3000+ miles from Toronto -- yeah !
 When I relocate next year to Manitoba, Minneapolis 
will be even better. GO John Keyes, GO !

ciao		larry



Reply to:
lgwalker@look.ca

From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Mon Oct  9 15:43:45 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: Grid 1755 password
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010091247220.18738-100000@smarty.smart.net>
References: <200010091949.RAA31784@ccii.co.za>
Message-ID: <l03102804b607dde313a7@[192.168.1.4]>

I am going slightly nuts, anybody know how to get around the settings
password or to get a 1755 Grid to boot from the floppy? I tried F at the
beep, but nothing happened. The hard drive makes plenty of seeking noises,
but I think it is wiped.



From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Mon Oct  9 15:30:40 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: OT collecting old pinballs
In-Reply-To: <200010091949.RAA31784@ccii.co.za>
Message-ID: <l03102802b607daa14f8d@[192.168.1.4]>

>10 years old? Foo, that's new :-)
>
>I have a 1975 Gottlieb Top Score I'm restoring. Looking to buy
>a new (1984) Gottlieb Haunted House. And I have half a share
>in a 1968 Bally Alligator.
>
>All of those are considered fairly new pinballs :-)

I am a pretty serious pinball player, and IMHO pinballs of the 80's are the
best. The golden era where money, technology, and talent hit there
highpoints, before money and talent moved on to video games. A good game,
and I think Blackout is great, never seems to grow old.



From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Mon Oct  9 15:41:02 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: OT collecting old pinballs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010091247220.18738-100000@smarty.smart.net>
References: <200010091949.RAA31784@ccii.co.za>
Message-ID: <l03102803b607dbed9d97@[192.168.1.4]>

>whenver I mentioned that I collected computers.  How do you tell the
>pinballs apart?  When you collect one, how do you know what type of

Sigh, took me a minute to follow your twisted mind. Pinball applies both to
the ball and the whole machine.



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Oct  9 15:02:47 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: mac serial pinouts
In-Reply-To: <39E1C8BE.3704.89934CE@localhost> from "Lawrence Walker" at Oct 9, 0 01:31:42 pm
Message-ID: <m13ij8M-000IyHC@p850ug1>

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From zmerch at 30below.com  Mon Oct  9 15:34:54 2000
From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: mac serial pinouts
In-Reply-To: <39E1C8BE.3704.89934CE@localhost>
References: <m13hc1A-000IyNC@p850ug1>
 <39DD2483.8240.AA2F3F@localhost>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20001009163454.01a80748@mail.30below.com>

Rumor has it that Lawrence Walker may have mentioned these words:

>Again the specs are hard to find. Is there such a thing as a
>repositry of cable connection specs ?

http://csgrad.cs.vt.edu/~tjohnson/pinouts/

Try this site... it's not totally complete or anything, but it has a *lot*
of connector specs for many machines, IBNLT Apple, PeeCee, Sun, NeXT, &
others... ( I found it on a NetBSD link page not long ago)

I thought I had another link or two for others, but I can't seem to find
them right now... (I haven't organized my bookmarks for ummm... 16 months
or so, so they're quite a mess!)

HTH,
"Merch"
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger   ---   sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
Recycling is good, right???  Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig.

If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead
disarmament should *not* be your first career choice.

From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu  Mon Oct  9 16:46:25 2000
From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: GRiD 1530 for grabs
Message-ID: <200010092146.OAA29136@stockholm.ptloma.edu>

I have a somewhat flaky GRiD 1530 with battery in unknown shape, AC
adaptor, charger and docking station. It seems to have some trouble on
power up but once it gets going it's fine. 8MB memory and 40MB HD
running MS-DOS (I think 4.01?) with a 386 processor. Someone care to
make an offer? Contact me off-list. Warning: it's insanely heavy so
prioirty will go to someone who can pick it up. I'm in San Bernardino, CA.

-- 
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
 Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- Dihydrogen monoxide -- it may be in your drink right now! www.dhmo.org -----

From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu  Mon Oct  9 17:10:17 2000
From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: Mac IIsi memory
Message-ID: <200010092210.PAA21062@stockholm.ptloma.edu>

I found some memory specifically for my poor little Mac IIsi. Does memory
need to go into the system in matched pairs or can it go singly?

Sorry for the slight OT.

-- 
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
 Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- To err is human -- to forgive is not company policy. -----------------------

From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Mon Oct  9 18:05:21 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: mac serial pinouts
In-Reply-To: <m13ij8M-000IyHC@p850ug1>
References: <39E1C8BE.3704.89934CE@localhost> from "Lawrence Walker" at
 Oct 9, 0 01:31:42 pm
Message-ID: <l03102805b607ff55f41d@[192.168.1.4]>

>For some odd reason serial ports are always a can of worms. My standard
>'algorithm' for hooking up an RS232 device is something like :
>
>1) Read every fine manual associated with the device.

Anybody using one of those little (size of a RS232 gender bender) boxes
with leds for all the status pins? What about a RS232 breakout thingie?



From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Mon Oct  9 18:17:28 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: Mac IIsi memory
In-Reply-To: <200010092210.PAA21062@stockholm.ptloma.edu>
Message-ID: <l03102807b608024ca6b0@[192.168.1.4]>

>I found some memory specifically for my poor little Mac IIsi. Does memory
>need to go into the system in matched pairs or can it go singly?
>
>Sorry for the slight OT.

4 at a time I think, otherwise nothing special. 1 MG on the MB, partially
used for video.



From mtapley at swri.edu  Mon Oct  9 17:22:43 2000
From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: mac serial pinouts
In-Reply-To: <200010092139.QAA40610@opal.tseinc.com>
Message-ID: <l03102808b607f44a09b2@[129.162.151.33]>

Larry Walker wrote:

> I've also got a NEXT which IIRC uses RS423 prot. but has a
>similiar miniDIN. These guys really keep the cable manufacturers
>busy.  Again the specs are hard to find. Is there such a thing as a
>repositry of cable connection specs ?

Ooooh ooooh! I can help! A quick cut, paste, ftp, and addition of a little
ascii art later, here, almost straight from the on-line copy of the System
Admin's manual on my NeXT running NeXTStep 3.3 are:

NeXT Computer Serial Ports

Serial ports A and B use 8-pin miniature DIN (MiniDIN-8) connectors. Both
ports on a 68040-based NeXT computer are RS-423 compatible; the ports on a
68030-based NeXT computer are RS-422 compatible (though different). The
following diagram and table describe the pin configuration of each port:

         8  7  6
        5    4  3
          2   1        (ed. drawing makes each location look like a
                        socket, not a pin, as would be found on the
                        back side of the computer. That matches my '040 Cube.)

Pin	Signal			Pin	Signal
	1	DTR			5	RXD
	2	DCD			6	RTS
	3	TXD			7	RTXC
	4	GND			8	CTS


NeXT-to-Modem Cable (MiniDIN-8 to DB-25)

The following table describes the configuration of a cable used to connect
a 68040-based NeXT computer to an asynchronous modem. This configuration
supports RTS/CTS hardware flow control.

MiniDIN-8	DB-25
Pin	Signal	Pin	Signal
1	DTR	20	DTR
2	DCD	8	DCD
3	TXD	2	TXD
4	GND	7	GND
5	RXD	3	RXD
6	RTS	4	RTS
7		(Not connected)
8	CTS	5	CTS


NeXT Null-Modem Cable (MiniDIN-8 to DB-25)

The following table describes the configuration of a null-modem style cable
used to connect a terminal, printer, or other computer to a NeXT computer.
This configuration supports RTS/CTS hardware flow control.

MiniDIN-8	RS-232
Pin	Signal	Pin	Signal
1	DTR	8	DCD
2	DCD	20	DTR
3	TXD	3	RXD
4	GND	7	GND
5	RXD	2	TXD
6	RTS	5	CTS
7		(Not connected)
8	CTS	4	RTS


NeXT Null-Modem Cable (MiniDIN-8 to MiniDIN-8)

The following table describes the configuration of a null-modem style cable
used to connect two 68040-based NeXT computers. This configuration supports
RTS/CTS hardware flow control.

MiniDIN-8	MiniDIN-8
Pin	Signal	Pin	Signal
1	DTR	2	DCD
2	DCD	1	DTR
3	TXD	5	RXD
4	GND	4	GND
5	RXD	3	TXD
6	RTS	8	CTS
7		(Not connected)
8	CTS	6	RTS

NeXT Null-Modem Cable (DTR Flow Control)

The following table describes the configuration of a null-modem cable used
to connect a NeXT computer to a printer that only supports DTR hardware
flow control, rather than RTS/CTS hardware flow control.

MiniDIN-8		RS-232
Pin	Signal	Pin	Signal
1	DTR	8	DCD
2	DCD	5 	CTS
3	TXD	3	RXD
4	GND	7	GND
5	RXD	2	TXD
6	RTS	20	 DTR
7		(Not connected)
8	CTS	4	RTS


Heck of a time to ask, but NeXTs are on-topic now right? Right? I hope? The
copyright on the back of my box says (c)1989.
								- Mark



From mrbill at mrbill.net  Mon Oct  9 17:25:43 2000
From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: Another PDP-11 available: Wisconsin
Message-ID: <20001009172543.A27212@mrbill.net>

(another mail sent to me @ pdp11.org that I'm not personally able to
 save/salvage - perhaps someone else here can? --bill )

If interested in this system, please email Tom at 
the e-mail address given below.  He'd like to see his
PDP-11 system go to a good home.

He's asking $100 plus shipping for the lot.

 - - -
My first home computer was a LSI-11: A Netcom box (card cage) with Diablo
emulations of RK05 drives. I ran RT-11 3, then version 4, and I may have
actually genned a v5 system for it. Still have it in storage, need to get
rid of it.

I don't know if the processor is an LSI 11 or 11/02. It's QBUS. I think I
have assorted serial and parallel cards installed. I made a 8" floppy
subsystem based on a heathkit card, built into the most incredibly ugly
plywood box. I have 3 working diablo drives and a 4th that has serious
electrical problems, but the heads are good.

The original bootstrap/terminator card used a charge pump/inverter chip to
provide negative 12v for the boot prom, but it never came up fast enough
and you always got dumped to the @ prompt at power-up. Type 173000g and off
you go - but that wasn't good enough for me. I hid a little transformer,
bridge, and capacitor behind the backplane, and maybe a 7912 regulator (can't
remember) and thereafter, it takes off from power-up without help.  

It has a Digital Pathways TCU-50 clock card, but the batteries are
probably long dead, and you have to hard-code the year into the fortran 
/ macro program that reads the hardware clock and sets the RT-11 time/date, 
which meant a small edit and recompile every January. I have a compiler and
assembler.  I've got an armload of RK05 packs for it.

This pup is a real dinosaur. Please help!

Thomas M. Peters
<Peters.Tom.M@MBCO.COM>
(414) 931-3887

-- 
Bill Bradford * KD5LQR
  mrbill@mrbill.net
    Austin, TX

From lemay at cs.umn.edu  Mon Oct  9 17:41:35 2000
From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: Mac IIsi memory
In-Reply-To: <l03102807b608024ca6b0@[192.168.1.4]> from Mike Ford at "Oct 9,
 2000 03:17:28 pm"
Message-ID: <200010092241.RAA15252@caesar.cs.umn.edu>

> >I found some memory specifically for my poor little Mac IIsi. Does memory
> >need to go into the system in matched pairs or can it go singly?
> >
> >Sorry for the slight OT.
> 
> 4 at a time I think, otherwise nothing special. 1 MG on the MB, partially
> used for video.
> 

4 at a time, either 256K, 512K, 1M, 2M, 4M, or 16M simms. 30 pin, 100ns
or faster.

-Lawrence LeMay

From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu  Mon Oct  9 17:53:34 2000
From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: Mac IIsi memory
In-Reply-To: <l03102807b608024ca6b0@[192.168.1.4]> from Mike Ford at "Oct 9, 0 03:17:28 pm"
Message-ID: <200010092253.PAA28928@stockholm.ptloma.edu>

> >I found some memory specifically for my poor little Mac IIsi. Does memory
> >need to go into the system in matched pairs or can it go singly?
> >
> >Sorry for the slight OT.
> 
> 4 at a time I think, otherwise nothing special. 1 MG on the MB, partially
> used for video.

Ugh. See, the memory I found was a 16MB SIMM and I would hate to have to put
64MB in it (it really doesn't need it, my 7300 needs it! :-P). What would
happen if I pulled one and replaced it with 16MB? It has 1MB SIMMs in it now.

-- 
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
 Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- Once, adv.: Enough. -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary" ------------

From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Mon Oct  9 18:54:45 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: Mac IIsi memory
In-Reply-To: <200010092253.PAA28928@stockholm.ptloma.edu>
References: <l03102807b608024ca6b0@[192.168.1.4]> from Mike Ford at "Oct
 9, 0 03:17:28 pm"
Message-ID: <l0310280bb6080af8b1c5@[192.168.1.4]>

>> >I found some memory specifically for my poor little Mac IIsi. Does memory
>> >need to go into the system in matched pairs or can it go singly?
>> >
>> >Sorry for the slight OT.
>>
>> 4 at a time I think, otherwise nothing special. 1 MG on the MB, partially
>> used for video.
>
>Ugh. See, the memory I found was a 16MB SIMM and I would hate to have to put
>64MB in it (it really doesn't need it, my 7300 needs it! :-P). What would
>happen if I pulled one and replaced it with 16MB? It has 1MB SIMMs in it now.

Nothing desirable. BTW if you can swap memory between a IIsi and a 7300 I
want to watch, one is 30 pin SIMM the other 168 pin DIMM.



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Oct  9 17:38:02 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: mac serial pinouts
In-Reply-To: <l03102805b607ff55f41d@[192.168.1.4]> from "Mike Ford" at Oct 9, 0 03:05:21 pm
Message-ID: <m13ilYc-000IyHC@p850ug1>

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From zmerch at 30below.com  Mon Oct  9 18:14:44 2000
From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: Mac IIsi memory
In-Reply-To: <l0310280bb6080af8b1c5@[192.168.1.4]>
References: <200010092253.PAA28928@stockholm.ptloma.edu>
 <l03102807b608024ca6b0@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20001009191444.01a80748@mail.30below.com>

Rumor has it that Mike Ford may have mentioned these words:
>>> >I found some memory specifically for my poor little Mac IIsi. Does memory
>>> >need to go into the system in matched pairs or can it go singly?
>>> >
>>> >Sorry for the slight OT.
>>>
>>> 4 at a time I think, otherwise nothing special. 1 MG on the MB, partially
>>> used for video.
>>
>>Ugh. See, the memory I found was a 16MB SIMM and I would hate to have to put
>>64MB in it (it really doesn't need it, my 7300 needs it! :-P). What would
>>happen if I pulled one and replaced it with 16MB? It has 1MB SIMMs in it
now.
>
>Nothing desirable. BTW if you can swap memory between a IIsi and a 7300 I
>want to watch, one is 30 pin SIMM the other 168 pin DIMM.

It sounds like the original poster only found (1) SIMM - and wouldn't want
to fund for 3 more as those 16Meg 30pin'ers are still quite costly (prolly
a lot more than that aforementioned DIMM) and given the choice, he wouldn't
want to fund that much purchasing 3 more SIMMs, for a machine that prolly
wouldn't use 1/3 that in normal use.

However, if he does think he can shoehorn a 30-pin SIMM into his 7300, I'd
sell tickets! ;^>

(I just stumbled across (4) 16Meg 30-pin SIMMs and I thought "what am I
going to use these for... until this thread reminded me of my MacIIci that
I want to set up as a network print server...;-)

Anywho, have fun!
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger   ---   sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
Recycling is good, right???  Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig.

If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead
disarmament should *not* be your first career choice.

From jrasite at eoni.com  Mon Oct  9 18:22:59 2000
From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: Mac IIsi memory
References: <l03102807b608024ca6b0@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <39E25321.A0663E9A@eoni.com>

four at a time, fer sure.  I just FINALLY found a new home for mine.
Bought new for $3800, memory upgraded from the original 5mb to 17mb
for a paltry $500.  Gave it away...

(BTW, the (at least one of the) definitive resource for old Mac info
is LowEndMacs. <http://www.lowendmacs.net>)

Jim Arnott

From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu  Mon Oct  9 18:31:30 2000
From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: Mac IIsi memory
In-Reply-To: <l0310280bb6080af8b1c5@[192.168.1.4]> from Mike Ford at "Oct 9, 0 03:54:45 pm"
Message-ID: <200010092331.QAA30160@stockholm.ptloma.edu>

> >> >I found some memory specifically for my poor little Mac IIsi. Does memory
> >> >need to go into the system in matched pairs or can it go singly?
> >> >
> >> >Sorry for the slight OT.
> >>
> >> 4 at a time I think, otherwise nothing special. 1 MG on the MB, partially
> >> used for video.
> >
> >Ugh. See, the memory I found was a 16MB SIMM and I would hate to have to put
> >64MB in it (it really doesn't need it, my 7300 needs it! :-P). What would
> >happen if I pulled one and replaced it with 16MB? It has 1MB SIMMs in it now.
> 
> Nothing desirable. BTW if you can swap memory between a IIsi and a 7300 I
> want to watch, one is 30 pin SIMM the other 168 pin DIMM.

I meant money-wise :-) At $65 a SIMM, I'd rather spend the money on DIMMs
for the Power Mac and my Apple Network Server.

Oh well.

-- 
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
 Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- Good-bye. I am leaving because I am bored. -- George Saunders' dying words -

From jhfine at idirect.com  Mon Oct  9 20:52:13 2000
From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: Another PDP-11 available: Wisconsin
References: <20001009172543.A27212@mrbill.net>
Message-ID: <39E2764D.7D0537EC@idirect.com>

>Bill Bradford wrote:

> (another mail sent to me @ pdp11.org that I'm not personally able to
>  save/salvage - perhaps someone else here can? --bill )
> If interested in this system, please email Tom at
> the e-mail address given below.  He'd like to see his
> PDP-11 system go to a good home.
> He's asking $100 plus shipping for the lot.
>  - - -
> My first home computer was a LSI-11: A Netcom box (card cage) with Diablo
> emulations of RK05 drives. I ran RT-11 3, then version 4, and I may have
> actually genned a v5 system for it. Still have it in storage, need to get
> rid of it.
> I don't know if the processor is an LSI 11 or 11/02. It's QBUS. I think I
> have assorted serial and parallel cards installed. I made a 8" floppy
> subsystem based on a heathkit card, built into the most incredibly ugly
> plywood box. I have 3 working diablo drives and a 4th that has serious
> electrical problems, but the heads are good.
> The original bootstrap/terminator card used a charge pump/inverter chip to
> provide negative 12v for the boot prom, but it never came up fast enough
> and you always got dumped to the @ prompt at power-up. Type 173000g and off
> you go - but that wasn't good enough for me. I hid a little transformer,
> bridge, and capacitor behind the backplane, and maybe a 7912 regulator (can't
> remember) and thereafter, it takes off from power-up without help.
> It has a Digital Pathways TCU-50 clock card, but the batteries are
> probably long dead, and you have to hard-code the year into the fortran
> / macro program that reads the hardware clock and sets the RT-11 time/date,
> which meant a small edit and recompile every January. I have a compiler and
> assembler.  I've got an armload of RK05 packs for it.
> This pup is a real dinosaur. Please help!
> Thomas M. Peters
> <Peters.Tom.M@MBCO.COM>
> (414) 931-3887
> --
> Bill Bradford * KD5LQR
>   mrbill@mrbill.net
>     Austin, TX

Jerome Fine replies:

First I must admit I am biased since I do not regard PDP-11 hardware
as being very important as opposed to the software.  On the other
hand, I have attempted to keep available a reasonable REAL  PDP-11
system at considerable expense compared to that $ US 100 mentioned
above.

BUT, unless there is some specific reason as to why some of the specific
hardware mentioned is extremely important, I would suggest that the
requested price is in excess of the value by a factor of 100.  Old
LSI-11 or 11/02 systems are so inhibited as compared with even an
11/23 CPU, let alone a 11/73 system, that I can't see why anyone
would want one - except maybe to fill out a full line of PDP-11
systems.  When an emulator on a PC can duplicate most, if not
all of the functions, only a die-hard hardware fan (addict - yes I am
a PDP-11 software addict) would want an 11/02 system.  And at
$ US 100, that is so overpriced compared to an 11/73 in a BA123
box no less about 2 years ago at $ US 10, I can't begin to see why
Tom thinks or feels that such a price is reasonable.  If Tom really
wants to see it go to a good home, he should be offering to help
with the shipping as well.

Anyone willing to suffer through the hardware problems of an old 11/02
system needs to be encouraged.  I actually have a couple of such old
systems which I haven't used in 10 years, but have kept just in case
someone might want then, but if and when they are ever available
(which could be within a year or two since I must start cleaning up
the basement), they will be for free.  Anyone who has that in mind,
contact me and I will keep you on a list.  Note that they are in Toronto
and local; pickup only.  The last time I gave away an 11/34 backplane
and power supply, it took over a year to get someone to pick it up
and almost ended up in the dumptser.

Sincerely yours,

Jerome Fine


From jhfine at idirect.com  Mon Oct  9 21:00:59 2000
From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: Jumpers Needed: TQK70
References: <3.0.5.32.20001008134707.009bf620@pop.sttl.uswest.net>
Message-ID: <39E2785B.FF2CF51F@idirect.com>

>Bruce Lane wrote:

>         If someone's got the jumper setting chart for the TQK70 tape drive
> controller (M7559 if I'm not mistaken), would you be so kind as to post it
> in ASCII form, FAX it to me, or perhaps scan it and turn it into a .PDF?

Jerome Fine replies:

I have a working M7559/TK70 in a real PDP-11/73 system that might
be able to give you the basic jumper setting chart for the standard
configuration.  Does that help?  I would need to remove it from the
backplane, so if it will not help, I am not eager to do so.

Sincerely yours,

Jerome Fine


From ncherry at home.net  Mon Oct  9 22:31:38 2000
From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: Moving a Microvax II
Message-ID: <39E28D99.BF32AF69@home.net>

I need to transport a Microvax II (BA-123) and need to know what I should
do before it takes this trip. Any suggestions?


PS: What is a vax console pc380? Just curious.

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

From healyzh at aracnet.com  Mon Oct  9 22:56:09 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:49 2005
Subject: Moving a Microvax II
In-Reply-To: <39E28D99.BF32AF69@home.net> from "Neil Cherry" at Oct 09, 2000 11:31:38 PM
Message-ID: <200010100356.UAA26153@shell1.aracnet.com>

> I need to transport a Microvax II (BA-123) and need to know what I should
> do before it takes this trip. Any suggestions?

Well, if you pull all side panels off, pull the drives, and pull the boards
you'll find it pretty easy to move.  OTOH, if you simply stuff it in the
passenger seat of a sufficiently large pickup it'll be a royal pain.

If you don't strip it down first, I'd really recommend getting someone to
help get it in and out of the vehicle (really should even if you strip it).

Find out about any documentation, spare parts, magnetic media, and other
paperwork.

> PS: What is a vax console pc380? Just curious.

DEC Professional 380.  It's got a card in it that allows it to act as the
system console for a large VAX (8500 series if I remember correctly) and it
was used to boot the VAX and run diagnostics.  If used as a Pro380 it can
run P/OS, RT-11, or Venix.

			Zane

From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com  Mon Oct  9 23:05:08 2000
From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: Moving a Microvax II
In-Reply-To: <39E28D99.BF32AF69@home.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20001009210340.00bfb660@208.226.86.10>

At 11:31 PM 10/9/00 -0400, you wrote:
>I need to transport a Microvax II (BA-123) and need to know what I should
>do before it takes this trip. Any suggestions?

Get a friend :-) If you want you can remove the front door and then slide 
out the hard drives and hand carry them, but these things are pretty 
robust. Watch out for damage to the "fins" between the top and the case.

>PS: What is a vax console pc380? Just curious.

Its the console for a VAX 8xxx series. Basically it is used to boot the VAX.
--Chuck



From lgwalker at look.ca  Tue Oct 10 01:24:10 2000
From: lgwalker at look.ca (Lawrence Walker)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: mac serial pinouts
In-Reply-To: <l03102808b607f44a09b2@[129.162.151.33]>
References: <200010092139.QAA40610@opal.tseinc.com>
Message-ID: <39E2539A.30197.93BE1E@localhost>


> NeXT Computer Serial Ports
> 
> Serial ports A and B use 8-pin miniature DIN (MiniDIN-8) connectors.
> Both ports on a 68040-based NeXT computer are RS-423 compatible; the
> ports on a 68030-based NeXT computer are RS-422 compatible (though
> different). The following diagram and table describe the pin
> configuration of each port:
> 
>          8  7  6
>         5    4  3
>           2   1        (ed. drawing makes each location look like a
>                         socket, not a pin, as would be found on the
>                         back side of the computer. That matches my
>                         '040 Cube.)
> 
> Pin	Signal			Pin	Signal
>  1	DTR			5	RXD
>  2	DCD			6	RTS
>  3	TXD			7	RTXC
>  4	GND			8	CTS
> 
> 
> NeXT-to-Modem Cable (MiniDIN-8 to DB-25)
> 
> The following table describes the configuration of a cable used to
> connect a 68040-based NeXT computer to an asynchronous modem. This
> configuration supports RTS/CTS hardware flow control.
> 
> MiniDIN-8	DB-25
> Pin	Signal	Pin	Signal
> 1	DTR	20	DTR
> 2	DCD	8	DCD
> 3	TXD	2	TXD
> 4	GND	7	GND
> 5	RXD	3	RXD
> 6	RTS	4	RTS
> 7		(Not connected)
> 8	CTS	5	CTS
> 
> 
> NeXT Null-Modem Cable (MiniDIN-8 to DB-25)
> 
> The following table describes the configuration of a null-modem style
> cable used to connect a terminal, printer, or other computer to a NeXT
> computer. This configuration supports RTS/CTS hardware flow control.
> 
> MiniDIN-8	RS-232
> Pin	Signal	Pin	Signal
> 1	DTR	8	DCD
> 2	DCD	20	DTR
> 3	TXD	3	RXD
> 4	GND	7	GND
> 5	RXD	2	TXD
> 6	RTS	5	CTS
> 7		(Not connected)
> 8	CTS	4	RTS
> 
> 
> NeXT Null-Modem Cable (MiniDIN-8 to MiniDIN-8)
> 
> The following table describes the configuration of a null-modem style
> cable used to connect two 68040-based NeXT computers. This
> configuration supports RTS/CTS hardware flow control.
> 
> MiniDIN-8	MiniDIN-8
> Pin	Signal	Pin	Signal
> 1	DTR	2	DCD
> 2	DCD	1	DTR
> 3	TXD	5	RXD
> 4	GND	4	GND
> 5	RXD	3	TXD
> 6	RTS	8	CTS
> 7		(Not connected)
> 8	CTS	6	RTS
> 
> NeXT Null-Modem Cable (DTR Flow Control)
> 
> The following table describes the configuration of a null-modem cable
> used to connect a NeXT computer to a printer that only supports DTR
> hardware flow control, rather than RTS/CTS hardware flow control.
> 
> MiniDIN-8		RS-232
> Pin	Signal	Pin	Signal
> 1	DTR	8	DCD
> 2	DCD	5 	CTS
> 3	TXD	3	RXD
> 4	GND	7	GND
> 5	RXD	2	TXD
> 6	RTS	20	 DTR
> 7		(Not connected)
> 8	CTS	4	RTS
> 
> 
 Good stuff

> Heck of a time to ask, but NeXTs are on-topic now right? Right? I
> hope? The copyright on the back of my box says (c)1989.
>         - Mark
> 
 Most have agreed that the Next IS a classic

ciao		larry.



Reply to:
lgwalker@look.ca

From lgwalker at look.ca  Tue Oct 10 01:24:10 2000
From: lgwalker at look.ca (Lawrence Walker)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: mac serial pinouts
In-Reply-To: <m13ij8M-000IyHC@p850ug1>
References: <39E1C8BE.3704.89934CE@localhost> from "Lawrence Walker" at Oct 9, 0 01:31:42 pm
Message-ID: <39E2539A.7827.93BDF1@localhost>



> >  The whole port thing on the Mac is a real can of worms. On 
> 
> For some odd reason serial ports are always a can of worms. My
> standard 'algorithm' for hooking up an RS232 device is something like
> :
> 
> 1) Read every fine manual associated with the device. 
> 
> 2) Notice that these manuals are written in a confusing way (as an
> example at least one manual uses 'transmitter protocol' to mean an
> ETX/ACK handshake and 'receiver protocol' to mean XON/XOFF handshake,
> no matter if they're applied to the send or receive functions of the
> device (!)).
> 
> 3) Configure the device to be at least moderately sane
> 
> 4) Hook it up to a terminal that uses data leads only and a breakout
> box. Fiddle with the hardware handshake lines to find out if they
> behave anything like how the manual describes them. Find out how to
> make it stop setting and how it tells the other device to stop
> sending. Some printers use pin 11 (of a DB25) for busy/ready, for
> example...
> 
> 5) Wire up a custom adapter to put the signals on sane pins.
> 
> 6) Try it out
> 
> 7) Go back to 5 and repeat until it works
> 
> 8) Label the adapter and hope it stays with the strange device....
> 
 ROTFL. I'll have to keep this beside my bench to inject a bit of 
humor and perspective the next time I'm ready to do serious 
damage to either the equipment or myself.

> There are DEC serial ports that have no hardware handshaking at all.
> There are HP machines were the hardware handshake is sufficiently
> strange that I'd love to know what the designer was thinking about.
> There are printers with the ready signal on a strange pin. And so on.
> No 2 manufacturers do it the same way.
> 
> FWIW it _is_ a DE9.
> 
> >   My PowerMac gives these specs:
> 
> This sounds like it's designed to connect to some special Apple device
> (most async devices don't use external clocking, for example) rather
> than a normal device like a printer or a modem.
> >  
> >      Pin    Name                  Function
> >      ---    ----                  --------
> >     1     SCLK(out)             Reset pod or get pod attention
> >      2     Sync(in)/SCLK(in)     Serial clock from pod
> >      3     TxD-                  Transmit -
> >      4     Gnd/shield            Ground
> >      5     RxD-                  Receive -
> >      6     TxD+                  Transmit +
> >      7     Wakeup/TxHS     Wake up CPU or do DMA handshake
> >      8     RxD+                  Receive +
> >      9     +5 V                  Power to pod (350 mA maximum)
> 
 These were right from the Apple PPC manual specs for the serial 
modem port. "Keep 'em confused and they'll keep coming back".

> -tony
> 
 ciao		larry 



Reply to:
lgwalker@look.ca

From wmsmith at earthlink.net  Mon Oct  9 23:21:21 2000
From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: NPR Morning Edition segment on VCF IV
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010082030270.29507-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <002001c03271$8c41f540$5899b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net>

Sellam probably thinks that I, as the 5100 exhibitor,
must be the source of this misinformation, and
basically he's right.

In the course of the interview, I told the reporter
about my efforts to collect serial numbers for existing
5100s.  I told the reporter that based on my research,
I estimated that there were approximately 5,000 5100s
made.  Of these, I estimated that 500 still existed and
about 50 were in the hands of collectors, which I think
is about right.  I assume the reporter heard "30"
instead of "50" and equated "in the hands of
collectors' with "in circulation".

Simply put, too much information, and too many numbers,
for a reporter to sift through.

My apologes for talking too much.

-W

> Where did Jeff (the narrator) get the idea that only
thirty IBM 5100s are
> floating around?  There are way more than that in
circulation.  Of course,
> there were other erroneous facts that he slipped into
the narrative but
> that's to be expected of clueless news people.
>
> Sellam                                International
Man of Intrigue and Danger
> -----------------------------------------------------
-------------------------
> Looking for a six in a pile of nines...
>
>                        VCF 4.0 is September
30-October 1
>                San Jose Convention Center, San Jose,
California
>                     See http://www.vintage.org for
details!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


From vcf at siconic.com  Mon Oct  9 22:24:29 2000
From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: Computer That Ate Hitler's Brain
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010092019030.31033-100000@siconic.com>


RE: http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,39198,00.html

Michelle,

The silly thing about the Colossus II vs. ENIAC debate on which one was
first is that they were both beat a few years earlier by Konrad Zuse, a
German inventor working alone during WWII.

Please check here for references:

http://irb.cs.tu-berlin.de/~zuse/Konrad_Zuse/
http://hjs.geol.uib.no/zuse/zusez1z3.htm
http://www.epemag.com/zuse/

All three are excellent resources on Zuse's amazing work.

I hope you will print a follow-up to your October 3rd article that truly
sets the records straight, because this is something that needs to be
known for such an important topic.

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Mon Oct  9 23:36:56 2000
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: Another PDP-11 available: Wisconsin
In-Reply-To: Re: Another PDP-11 available: Wisconsin (Jerome Fine)
References: <20001009172543.A27212@mrbill.net>
	<39E2764D.7D0537EC@idirect.com>
Message-ID: <14818.40168.216827.37869@phaduka.neurotica.com>


  There's nothing anyone here can say that would convince me that this
message is anything but a very enthusiastic and rather caustic TROLL.

         -Dave McGuire

On October 9, Jerome Fine wrote:
> Jerome Fine replies:
> 
> First I must admit I am biased since I do not regard PDP-11 hardware
> as being very important as opposed to the software.  On the other
> hand, I have attempted to keep available a reasonable REAL  PDP-11
> system at considerable expense compared to that $ US 100 mentioned
> above.
> 
> BUT, unless there is some specific reason as to why some of the specific
> hardware mentioned is extremely important, I would suggest that the
> requested price is in excess of the value by a factor of 100.  Old
> LSI-11 or 11/02 systems are so inhibited as compared with even an
> 11/23 CPU, let alone a 11/73 system, that I can't see why anyone
> would want one - except maybe to fill out a full line of PDP-11
> systems.  When an emulator on a PC can duplicate most, if not
> all of the functions, only a die-hard hardware fan (addict - yes I am
> a PDP-11 software addict) would want an 11/02 system.  And at
> $ US 100, that is so overpriced compared to an 11/73 in a BA123
> box no less about 2 years ago at $ US 10, I can't begin to see why
> Tom thinks or feels that such a price is reasonable.  If Tom really
> wants to see it go to a good home, he should be offering to help
> with the shipping as well.
> 
> Anyone willing to suffer through the hardware problems of an old 11/02
> system needs to be encouraged.  I actually have a couple of such old
> systems which I haven't used in 10 years, but have kept just in case
> someone might want then, but if and when they are ever available
> (which could be within a year or two since I must start cleaning up
> the basement), they will be for free.  Anyone who has that in mind,
> contact me and I will keep you on a list.  Note that they are in Toronto
> and local; pickup only.  The last time I gave away an 11/34 backplane
> and power supply, it took over a year to get someone to pick it up
> and almost ended up in the dumptser.
> 
> Sincerely yours,
> 
> Jerome Fine

From wmsmith at earthlink.net  Mon Oct  9 23:37:38 2000
From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: mac serial pinouts
References: <200010092139.QAA40610@opal.tseinc.com> <39E2539A.30197.93BE1E@localhost>
Message-ID: <004f01c03273$d245ee00$5899b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net>

>  Most have agreed that the Next IS a classic
> 
> ciao larry.

They must be, Sellam allowed one at VCF 4.0.


From harrison at timharrison.com  Mon Oct  9 23:49:56 2000
From: harrison at timharrison.com (Tim Harrison)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: NeXT hardware issue (was: mac serial pinouts)
References: <200010092139.QAA40610@opal.tseinc.com> <39E2539A.30197.93BE1E@localhost>
Message-ID: <39E29FF4.A12C400B@timharrison.com>

Lawrence Walker wrote:

>  Most have agreed that the Next IS a classic

Definitely classic.  However, I have an issue with mine.  When I power
it off, either via the OS, or by hitting the nifty green power button on
the keyboard, it does it's shutdown routine, and then, instead of
actually powering off, it powers off, and then back on.  

Anyone else experience this?

-- 


Tim Harrison
Network Engineer
harrison@timharrison.com
http://www.networklevel.com/

From jpl15 at panix.com  Tue Oct 10 03:26:02 2000
From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: Geekdom vs the Fourth Estate
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0010100415410.12685-100000@panix2.panix.com>


  Here in India, because of my previous association with MGM Studios, I
find myself cast (rather unwillingly on my part) as a bit of a celebrity,
and so I have been interviewed by several different reporters from various
media.

  During an interview with a fellow from The Hindu, the largest paper in
India, we got into a discussion of my own personal recording studio and
collection of vintage electronic instruments.  I had been asked to provide
photos, which I brought.

  In the pack pf pictures, two or three of my computer collection were
intermingled, and the discussion turned for a few minutes to the
preservation of technology in general, and why anyone would want a house
full of PDP11s, etc.  They took several of the photos to run with the
article; I gave them a brief description of the studio and it's equipment,
and... they ran the picture of am DEC stuff, over the caption for the
music gear, after we all agreed *not* to.

  I'm *still* getting calls from tech-heads who can't figure out just what
model Moog Synth takes up 11 linear feet of 6' racks with a Kennedy 9100
stuck in the middle of it.

    sigh.

  This, more or less, has happened each and every time I have given a
press interview on a technical subject in the last 15 years.

  This one just happens to be classiccmp-related...  


 Cheers

John



From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Tue Oct 10 04:11:10 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: Mac IIsi memory
In-Reply-To: <200010092331.QAA30160@stockholm.ptloma.edu>
References: <l0310280bb6080af8b1c5@[192.168.1.4]> from Mike Ford at "Oct
 9, 0 03:54:45 pm"
Message-ID: <l03102800b6088c19e618@[192.168.1.4]>

>> Nothing desirable. BTW if you can swap memory between a IIsi and a 7300 I
>> want to watch, one is 30 pin SIMM the other 168 pin DIMM.
>
>I meant money-wise :-) At $65 a SIMM, I'd rather spend the money on DIMMs
>for the Power Mac and my Apple Network Server.

Its a bit odd, but $$$ per MB the most expensive are 4 MB 30 pin simms,
which go for $5 to $7 each, while the 16 MB are mostly less than $20.

Less surprizing, 16 MB DIMMs are even cheaper, but not as cheap as current
technology memory. About the most expensive are the silly chips my Tanzania
MB Starmax takes at about $1.50 per MB (only compatible with Mac 4400 and
some Dell Optiplex).

When I get around to testing and sorting I will have a fair amount of all
sizes of older memory up for sale.



From frederik at freddym.org  Tue Oct 10 07:25:45 2000
From: frederik at freddym.org (Frederik Meerwaldt)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: Moving a Microvax II
In-Reply-To: <39E28D99.BF32AF69@home.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0010101423340.1114-100000@server.wes.mee.com>

Hi!

> I need to transport a Microvax II (BA-123) and need to know what I should
> do before it takes this trip. Any suggestions?

Take out the Hard Disks in the front of the computer.
I moved my MicroVAX with no changes, and then one HDD was dead after the
move. But that's the only thing what comes to my mind.

> PS: What is a vax console pc380? Just curious.

It's a Professional 380. DEC's try to build a PC with a PDP-11
processor. If you have it, could you please look if there's a DECNA in it?
If you have the machine, just give me a mail, and I'll send you the module
number of the controller (I really want to have such a thing).

TIA
-- 
Best Regards,
	Freddy

=====================================================================
Frederik Meerwaldt  ICQ: 83045387  Homepage: http://www.freddym.org
 Bavaria/Germany              OpenVMS and Unix Howtos and much more
   FREEBSD, NETBSD, OPENBSD, TRU64, OPENVMS, ULTRIX, BEOS, LINUX



From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu  Tue Oct 10 08:15:41 2000
From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: NPR Morning Edition segment on VCF IV
In-Reply-To: <002001c03271$8c41f540$5899b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> from "Wayne M. Smith" at "Oct 9, 0 09:21:21 pm"
Message-ID: <200010101315.GAA29440@stockholm.ptloma.edu>

> Sellam probably thinks that I, as the 5100 exhibitor,
> must be the source of this misinformation, and
> basically he's right.

Yeah, you yakker. Shame on you for being proud of your baby. ;-)

-- 
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
 Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- This message will self-destruct in five seconds. Good luck, Jim. -- M:I ----

From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com  Tue Oct 10 08:32:56 2000
From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: 4004?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010092019030.31033-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <000301c032be$9a24ec60$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>


In case your local news services are too dumbed 
down to give you the news accurately (I had to 
switch from NewsRadio88 to NPR)...

Jack St. Clair Kilby got the Nobel Prize for 
Physics!  Shared it with two others Solid state
CPU for him and Solid state lasers for the other
two.

John A.

From at258 at osfn.org  Tue Oct 10 08:49:47 2000
From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: ID this Data General
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010090824400.30159-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.1001010094758.5756A-100000@osfn.org>


Also 5-1/4 floppy and communications modules, I believe.  Yes, I daren't 
translate ubi, o ubi, est meum sub ubi until m keyborad is cleaned. 

On Mon, 9 Oct 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote:

> On Mon, 9 Oct 2000, Merle K. Peirce wrote:
> 
> > UUeren't they called Desktops?  I think the number of modules could be 
> > varied, too because I've seen some that uuere longer, others shorter.
> 
> Did you forget to pay the rent on your "w" key again, Merle?
> 
> Yes, modules could be added or removed as desired.  There were hard drive,
> tape drive, memory, etc. modules.
> 
> Sellam                                International Man of Intrigue and Danger
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Looking for a six in a pile of nines...
> 
>                        VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
>                San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
>                     See http://www.vintage.org for details!
> 
> 
> 

M. K. Peirce
Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc.
215 Shady Lea Road,
North Kingstown, RI 02852

"Casta est qui nemo rogavit."
              
              - Ovid


From ncherry at home.net  Tue Oct 10 08:57:49 2000
From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: Moving a Microvax II
References: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0010101423340.1114-100000@server.wes.mee.com>
Message-ID: <39E3205C.94CE6946@home.net>

Frederik Meerwaldt wrote:
> 
> Hi!
> 
> > I need to transport a Microvax II (BA-123) and need to know what I should
> > do before it takes this trip. Any suggestions?
> 
> Take out the Hard Disks in the front of the computer.
> I moved my MicroVAX with no changes, and then one HDD was dead after the
> move. But that's the only thing what comes to my mind.
> 
> > PS: What is a vax console pc380? Just curious.
> 
> It's a Professional 380. DEC's try to build a PC with a PDP-11
> processor. If you have it, could you please look if there's a DECNA in it?
> If you have the machine, just give me a mail, and I'll send you the module
> number of the controller (I really want to have such a thing).

I don't have one, it's up on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=457685543

So far $31(US), reserve not met. No DECNA (I guess).

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

From ip500 at home.com  Tue Oct 10 08:58:53 2000
From: ip500 at home.com (ip500)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: Intel iPSC/1
Message-ID: <39E3209D.426CEF0C@home.com>

	This sould just make the 10 year rule.... Ran across one over the
weekend at a local University auction. Anyone have pointers to Doc's on
these cool Hypercubes? Did a fair bit of surfing over the weekend and
didn't turn up much. Lots of parallel processor info but all too new.
	Obvious questions---- what did it use for a console & storage? I know
it ran their version of UNIX [ZENIX?] As I'm not wired for 220 yet it
will probably sit but I would like to complete a static display at the
very least. [couldn't talk my wife into using it for a lamp table in the
living room...although it is pretty cool & "modern" looking]
	Any info appreciated.
	Thanks, Craig

From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com  Tue Oct 10 09:35:54 2000
From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: Moving a Microvax II
Message-ID: <F209qJmdTcjJxWY5pCx000116ed@hotmail.com>

Haha, ah yes... gotta love Virgil Rice.. I bought something from him once 
and even though I picked it up from his house, he still wanted me to pay 
like 30 bucks shipping.. He has lots of cool stuff that I'd love to buy, but 
not at the kind of prices he wants for it.. It would be far less irritating 
were he not only about 40 minutes from me... He has an HP 21MX that I've 
drooled over but he wanted like 700 dollars for it... Hell, he wanted 200 
bucks apiece just for empty HP racks... Sorry for the rant, but people who 
would rather throw stuff out because they can't get what they think its 
"worth" truly irritate me... I'm not asking people to give everything away, 
just to be reasonable about negotiating...

Will J
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.


From ncherry at home.net  Tue Oct 10 09:48:48 2000
From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: Moving a Microvax II
References: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0010101423340.1114-100000@server.wes.mee.com> <39E3205C.94CE6946@home.net>
Message-ID: <39E32C50.E2F893DC@home.net>

Neil Cherry wrote:
> 
> Frederik Meerwaldt wrote:
> >
> > Hi!
> >
> > > I need to transport a Microvax II (BA-123) and need to know what I should
> > > do before it takes this trip. Any suggestions?
> >
> > Take out the Hard Disks in the front of the computer.
> > I moved my MicroVAX with no changes, and then one HDD was dead after the
> > move. But that's the only thing what comes to my mind.

Thanks (to everyone).

> > > PS: What is a vax console pc380? Just curious.
> >
> > It's a Professional 380. DEC's try to build a PC with a PDP-11
> > processor. If you have it, could you please look if there's a DECNA in it?
> > If you have the machine, just give me a mail, and I'll send you the module
> > number of the controller (I really want to have such a thing).
> 
> I don't have one, it's up on ebay:
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=457685543
> 
> So far $31(US), reserve not met. No DECNA (I guess).

BTW, I have no interest on biding on it, I just wanted to know what it was.
I've suddenly become very interested in DEC equipment and VMS so I figure
I'd better get to know this stuff.

Thanks.

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

From ncherry at home.net  Tue Oct 10 09:59:39 2000
From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: Moving a Microvax II
References: <F209qJmdTcjJxWY5pCx000116ed@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <39E32EDB.B26994BB@home.net>

Will Jennings wrote:
> 
> Haha, ah yes... gotta love Virgil Rice.. I bought something from him once
> and even though I picked it up from his house, he still wanted me to pay
> like 30 bucks shipping.. He has lots of cool stuff that I'd love to buy, but
> not at the kind of prices he wants for it.. It would be far less irritating
> were he not only about 40 minutes from me... He has an HP 21MX that I've
> drooled over but he wanted like 700 dollars for it... Hell, he wanted 200
> bucks apiece just for empty HP racks... Sorry for the rant, but people who
> would rather throw stuff out because they can't get what they think its
> "worth" truly irritate me... I'm not asking people to give everything away,
> just to be reasonable about negotiating...

I'm not getting it from Virgil, I'm getting it from someone else (I let them
chime in if they so choose :-). I'm getting it at what I consider a fair
price and I'm not paying shipping (but I will be paying tolls, I think).

As far as the rant, that's OK, I've noticed a few people on ebay failing
to understand the true value of various computer equipment. Note to those
who wish put stuff on ebay:

1) If it's heavy you're in trouble unless it's really rare (not like
   a steak :-).
2) Reserves are a pain, I've seen lots of stuff get ignored because
   of reserves. Heck I've even bid on equipment only to discover I
   couldn't go above the reserve.
3) Try to get a picture and if you do get a clear one.
4) If I can buy the same device used for around the same price, I'll
   ignore the item.

I have more rants but I can't remember them all.

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net  Tue Oct 10 10:25:12 2000
From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (FBA)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: Moving a Microvax II
Message-ID: <001a01c032ce$4cafb810$c834d986@wkchafauradon.beckman.com>

Speaking of ebay: here is a $700 commodore 64 with the reserve not met
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=454431985
Francois

-----Original Message-----
From: Neil Cherry <ncherry@home.net>
To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Date: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 10:12 AM
Subject: Re: Moving a Microvax II


>Will Jennings wrote:
>>
>> Haha, ah yes... gotta love Virgil Rice.. I bought something from him once
>> and even though I picked it up from his house, he still wanted me to pay
>> like 30 bucks shipping.. He has lots of cool stuff that I'd love to buy,
but
>> not at the kind of prices he wants for it.. It would be far less
irritating
>> were he not only about 40 minutes from me... He has an HP 21MX that I've
>> drooled over but he wanted like 700 dollars for it... Hell, he wanted 200
>> bucks apiece just for empty HP racks... Sorry for the rant, but people
who
>> would rather throw stuff out because they can't get what they think its
>> "worth" truly irritate me... I'm not asking people to give everything
away,
>> just to be reasonable about negotiating...
>
>I'm not getting it from Virgil, I'm getting it from someone else (I let
them
>chime in if they so choose :-). I'm getting it at what I consider a fair
>price and I'm not paying shipping (but I will be paying tolls, I think).
>
>As far as the rant, that's OK, I've noticed a few people on ebay failing
>to understand the true value of various computer equipment. Note to those
>who wish put stuff on ebay:
>
>1) If it's heavy you're in trouble unless it's really rare (not like
>   a steak :-).
>2) Reserves are a pain, I've seen lots of stuff get ignored because
>   of reserves. Heck I've even bid on equipment only to discover I
>   couldn't go above the reserve.
>3) Try to get a picture and if you do get a clear one.
>4) If I can buy the same device used for around the same price, I'll
>   ignore the item.
>
>I have more rants but I can't remember them all.
>
>--
>Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
>http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
>http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
>http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge)


From transit at lerctr.org  Tue Oct 10 10:50:03 2000
From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: Moving a Microvax II
In-Reply-To: <001a01c032ce$4cafb810$c834d986@wkchafauradon.beckman.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SV4.3.96.001010104906.16782A-100000@lerami.lerctr.org>



On Tue, 10 Oct 2000, FBA wrote:

> Speaking of ebay: here is a $700 commodore 64 with the reserve not met
> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=454431985

Yeah, that'll sell real quick. Why they won't even notice all the C64's
on there going for $10 and $12...with software even!

Oh well, everyone's gotta learn sometime...


From ncherry at home.net  Tue Oct 10 10:52:34 2000
From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: Moving a Microvax II
References: <001a01c032ce$4cafb810$c834d986@wkchafauradon.beckman.com>
Message-ID: <39E33B42.2984EF6F@home.net>

FBA wrote:
> 
> Speaking of ebay: here is a $700 commodore 64 with the reserve not met
> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=454431985
> Francois

Oh, nice point! :-)

And in the words of Nelson Munsen (SP?) of the Simpon's (a bully on a
cartoon show): Haha!

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

From foo at siconic.com  Tue Oct 10 10:07:40 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: mac serial pinouts
In-Reply-To: <004f01c03273$d245ee00$5899b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010100806520.31815-100000@siconic.com>

On Mon, 9 Oct 2000, Wayne M. Smith wrote:

> >  Most have agreed that the Next IS a classic
> > 
> > ciao larry.
> 
> They must be, Sellam allowed one at VCF 4.0.

C'mon, the NeXT was a classic the moment it came off the assembly line.

Sellam                                International Man of Intrigue and Danger
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...

                       VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
               San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
                    See http://www.vintage.org for details!



From foo at siconic.com  Tue Oct 10 10:12:30 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: Geekdom vs the Fourth Estate
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0010100415410.12685-100000@panix2.panix.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010100809290.31815-100000@siconic.com>

On Tue, 10 Oct 2000, John Lawson wrote:

>   This, more or less, has happened each and every time I have given a
> press interview on a technical subject in the last 15 years.

Actually, I gave an interview to a journalism student at some local
university through e-mail, and it came out very well done (I don't have
the URL off hand).

But I think this can be attributed to two things: 1) she's still young and
still believes in what she's doing (i.e. not jaded, not just trying to get
the story to press) and 2) all my replies were carefully crafted, having
the luxury of being able to edit and re-edit what I was saying.

In fact, I recycled answers from a previous e-mail I'd sent to another
reporter.  I used these same answers for three e-mail interviews.  It made
things much easier for me, and if there were any mistakes in the article,
they would be my fault since my responses would in all likelihood be
copied verbatim.

Sellam                                International Man of Intrigue and Danger
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...

                       VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
               San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
                    See http://www.vintage.org for details!



From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Tue Oct 10 12:06:09 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: High priced vendors, was Moving a Microvax II
In-Reply-To: <F209qJmdTcjJxWY5pCx000116ed@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <l03102802b608fa21d260@[192.168.1.4]>

>Haha, ah yes... gotta love Virgil Rice.. I bought something from him once
>and even though I picked it up from his house, he still wanted me to pay
>like 30 bucks shipping.. He has lots of cool stuff that I'd love to buy, but

>"worth" truly irritate me... I'm not asking people to give everything away,
>just to be reasonable about negotiating...

I try and sell them on the idea of retail and wholesale customers. People
who find a copy of Processor and figure they in their junk shop will be
able to get prices remotely like a half page advertiser in the business for
20 years are living in a fantasy world. I tell them, call a few of those
places and find out what they pay for this item, with you paying the
shipping.

About half the time I make it through the second door where no retail
customer can go, the other half I just walk away. Places that sit on goods
demanding retail prices don't even exist after awhile in my thinking. If
they have a lot of neat toys my rejection takes quite a while to set in
though.



From elvey at hal.com  Tue Oct 10 12:32:30 2000
From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: 4004?
In-Reply-To: <000301c032be$9a24ec60$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>
Message-ID: <200010101732.KAA23621@civic.hal.com>

"John Allain" <John.Allain@donnelley.infousa.com> wrote:
> 
> In case your local news services are too dumbed 
> down to give you the news accurately (I had to 
> switch from NewsRadio88 to NPR)...
> 
> Jack St. Clair Kilby got the Nobel Prize for 
> Physics!  Shared it with two others Solid state
> CPU for him and Solid state lasers for the other
> two.


Hi
 I think Kilby's was for the IC, not CPU.
Dwight


From gwynp at artware.qc.ca  Tue Oct 10 12:39:53 2000
From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: Moving a Microvax II
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SV4.3.96.001010104906.16782A-100000@lerami.lerctr.org>
Message-ID: <XFMail.20001010133953.gwynp@artware.qc.ca>


On 10-Oct-2000 Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote:
> 
> 
> On Tue, 10 Oct 2000, FBA wrote:
> 
>> Speaking of ebay: here is a $700 commodore 64 with the reserve not met
>> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=454431985
> 
> Yeah, that'll sell real quick. Why they won't even notice all the C64's
> on there going for $10 and $12...with software even!

I bought one of those for 10 CAD at the Sally Ann.  Does this mean I got
the deal of the century?
 
> Oh well, everyone's gotta learn sometime...
I KNOW!  If anyone bids on that, I'll e-mail the bidder offering my
computer for HALF their bid amount.  I should clear at least 350 USD on
the deal.  Heck, I'll even pay shipping. 

-Philip

From doug at blinkenlights.com  Tue Oct 10 12:59:05 2000
From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: Intel iPSC/1
In-Reply-To: <39E3209D.426CEF0C@home.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010101333400.7250-100000@planetdoug.com>

On Tue, 10 Oct 2000, ip500 wrote:

> 	This sould just make the 10 year rule.... Ran across one over the
> weekend at a local University auction. Anyone have pointers to Doc's on
> these cool Hypercubes?

Damn, I've been looking for one of those :-)

Whatever docs I have are archived on tape and burried someplace.  I played
around with an iPSC/1 around 1987, so you're OK as far as the 10-year rule
goes. AFAIK, it was Intel's first attempt at a supercomputer.  It was
based on the Cosmic Cube project at Cal Tech.

It's basically a bunch of 286's in a hypercube topology.  Each node had
something like 512K RAM, and the internode communication wasn't very fast
-- it might have been ethernet.

I don't recall there being any console as such.  You talked to the thing
through a 286 box running Xenix connected via ethernet, which uploaded
your parallel app to each of the nodes, started the app, and collected the
output.

It ran an OS called CrOS, which was basically just a communication
manager.  There was no shell or filesystem or anything like that -- the
box was intended to be used as an execution engine.  Intel provided a
Unix-hosted simulator (which I think was developed at Cal Tech), so you
could debug the apps using more or less standard tools before uploading
your code.

Cheers,
Doug


From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Tue Oct 10 13:34:56 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: Moving a Microvax II
In-Reply-To: <001a01c032ce$4cafb810$c834d986@wkchafauradon.beckman.com>
Message-ID: <l03102803b609119b5837@[192.168.1.4]>

>Speaking of ebay: here is a $700 commodore 64 with the reserve not met
>http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=454431985

Have some fun, bid the $700, which won't meet the reserve, and won't
obligate you to buy the unit at any price.



From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com  Tue Oct 10 13:27:17 2000
From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: 4004?
In-Reply-To: <200010101732.KAA23621@civic.hal.com>
Message-ID: <000001c032e7$b95455c0$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>


Dwight> I think Kilby's was for the IC, not CPU.


Right.  Thanks for responding.  The dates of
course told the story.  JK's invention was
supposedly in 1958 or so.  The CPU, wasn't
That the i4004 over near 1970+?

Anybody know the line of products from TI, the ID's,
of the stuff coming from JK's first chip?

John A.

From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com  Tue Oct 10 13:43:46 2000
From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: Moving a Microvax II
In-Reply-To: <l03102803b609119b5837@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <000201c032ea$064d28f0$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>

 
>Have some fun, bid the $700, which won't meet the 
>reserve, and won't obligate you to buy the unit at
>any price.


<react opt=Shudder>
If you know the reserve then this is shill bidding.
If you don't know it then He's risking obligation.
</react>


John A.

From harrison at timharrison.com  Tue Oct 10 13:50:17 2000
From: harrison at timharrison.com (Tim Harrison)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: Moving a Microvax II
References: <l03102803b609119b5837@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <39E364E9.EEC2581F@timharrison.com>

Mike Ford wrote:

> Have some fun, bid the $700, which won't meet the reserve, and won't
> obligate you to buy the unit at any price.

As ignorant as it was, I thought about bidding on the Cray a month or so
ago.  Just to see my name there. :)  However, then I started thinking...
what if I was the highest bidder?  I'd have to sell everything I owned,
everything my wife owned, sell myself on the street for a year or two to
make up the extra USD$10, and then I'd have a Cray I couldn't power, or
store.

But, hell, my name would have shown up. ;)

-- 


Tim Harrison
Network Engineer
harrison@timharrison.com
http://www.networklevel.com/

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Oct 10 13:00:03 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: Moving a Microvax II
In-Reply-To: <39E28D99.BF32AF69@home.net> from "Neil Cherry" at Oct 9, 0 11:31:38 pm
Message-ID: <m13j3h8-000IyNC@p850ug1>

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Oct 10 12:49:21 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: Another PDP-11 available: Wisconsin
In-Reply-To: <39E2764D.7D0537EC@idirect.com> from "Jerome Fine" at Oct 9, 0 09:52:13 pm
Message-ID: <m13j3Wn-000IyHC@p850ug1>

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From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Tue Oct 10 15:24:53 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: Moving a Microvax II
In-Reply-To: <000201c032ea$064d28f0$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>
References: <l03102803b609119b5837@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <l03102808b6092a9f3ac3@[192.168.1.4]>

>>Have some fun, bid the $700, which won't meet the
>>reserve, and won't obligate you to buy the unit at

>If you know the reserve then this is shill bidding.
>If you don't know it then He's risking obligation.

OK, so I "could" be wrong, but the first bid is $700 (nobody has bid yet),
and it is showing $700 with reserve not met, so a bid of $700 and no more I
don't "think" can reach the reserve. Maybe I will go setup a dopey auction
and test it myself.



From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu  Tue Oct 10 15:02:08 2000
From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: Moving a Microvax II
In-Reply-To: <l03102803b609119b5837@[192.168.1.4]> from Mike Ford at "Oct 10, 0 10:34:56 am"
Message-ID: <200010102002.NAA14284@stockholm.ptloma.edu>

> >Speaking of ebay: here is a $700 commodore 64 with the reserve not met
> >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=454431985
> 
> Have some fun, bid the $700, which won't meet the reserve, and won't
> obligate you to buy the unit at any price.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! I might just DO that! :-P

-- 
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
 Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- Imagination is the one weapon in the war against reality. -- de Gaultier ---

From whdawson at mlynk.com  Tue Oct 10 14:55:14 2000
From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: Moving a Microvax II
In-Reply-To: <l03102808b6092a9f3ac3@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <000301c032f4$0163ca60$6b9e72d1@cobweb.net>

-> >>Have some fun, bid the $700, which won't meet the
-> >>reserve, and won't obligate you to buy the unit at
->
-> >If you know the reserve then this is shill bidding.
-> >If you don't know it then He's risking obligation.
->
-> OK, so I "could" be wrong, but the first bid is $700 (nobody
-> has bid yet),
-> and it is showing $700 with reserve not met, so a bid of
-> $700 and no more I
-> don't "think" can reach the reserve. Maybe I will go setup a
-> dopey auction
-> and test it myself.
->

What he is mentioning doing is not shill bidding.  He is correct.  When
and auction has "reserve not met" and no bids, a bid of the amount
listed as a the opening bid will not meet the reserve.

Shill bidding is using another name to bid on your own items, or having
someone else, who you know, bid on them.

Bill

whdawson


From foo at siconic.com  Tue Oct 10 14:41:33 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: 4004?
In-Reply-To: <000001c032e7$b95455c0$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010101239400.32211-100000@siconic.com>

On Tue, 10 Oct 2000, John Allain wrote:

> Right.  Thanks for responding.  The dates of
> course told the story.  JK's invention was
> supposedly in 1958 or so.  The CPU, wasn't
> That the i4004 over near 1970+?

Some would argue that it was the F14 CADC designed by Ray Holt:

http://www.microcomputerhistory.com

Sellam                                International Man of Intrigue and Danger
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...

                       VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
               San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
                    See http://www.vintage.org for details!



From eric at brouhaha.com  Tue Oct 10 15:59:06 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: Intel iPSC/1
In-Reply-To: <39E3209D.426CEF0C@home.com> (message from ip500 on Tue, 10 Oct
	2000 09:58:53 -0400)
References: <39E3209D.426CEF0C@home.com>
Message-ID: <20001010205906.25252.qmail@brouhaha.com>

ip500 <ip500@home.com> wrote:
> 	Obvious questions---- what did it use for a console & storage?

It connected to a host system via Ethernet.

> I know
> it ran their version of UNIX [ZENIX?]

The host might have run Xenix, but the iPSC itself does not.

From ncherry at home.net  Tue Oct 10 16:27:35 2000
From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: High priced vendors, was Moving a Microvax II
References: <l03102802b608fa21d260@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <39E389C7.67BC8CB3@home.net>

Mike Ford wrote:
> 
> >Haha, ah yes... gotta love Virgil Rice.. I bought something from him once
> >and even though I picked it up from his house, he still wanted me to pay
> >like 30 bucks shipping.. He has lots of cool stuff that I'd love to buy, but
> 
> >"worth" truly irritate me... I'm not asking people to give everything away,
> >just to be reasonable about negotiating...
> 
> I try and sell them on the idea of retail and wholesale customers. People
> who find a copy of Processor and figure they in their junk shop will be
> able to get prices remotely like a half page advertiser in the business for
> 20 years are living in a fantasy world. I tell them, call a few of those
> places and find out what they pay for this item, with you paying the
> shipping.
> 
> About half the time I make it through the second door where no retail
> customer can go, the other half I just walk away. Places that sit on goods
> demanding retail prices don't even exist after awhile in my thinking. If
> they have a lot of neat toys my rejection takes quite a while to set in
> though.

Kind of like a particular Ford dealer here in Central Jersey, Attempted to
sell me a Mutsang ;-) at 30% above teh going price. I'd already been to 3
other dealers and I gave them their price. The Sales droid got mad at me!
So I told him where to stick it in front of other customers. He followed
me out the door yelling that I would be back. I never went back, they
went out of business. And of course I'm now purchasing a Microvax (getting
back on topic ;-).

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

From jrkeys at concentric.net  Tue Oct 10 16:51:58 2000
From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: NeXT hardware issue (was: mac serial pinouts)
References: <200010092139.QAA40610@opal.tseinc.com> <39E2539A.30197.93BE1E@localhost> <39E29FF4.A12C400B@timharrison.com>
Message-ID: <00ce01c03304$52094980$24731fd1@default>

I have the same problem on a NeXT slab, I just pull the plug on it to
cut power.  If you get a fix let me know.  Thanks
John Keys
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Harrison" <harrison@timharrison.com>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 11:49 PM
Subject: NeXT hardware issue (was: mac serial pinouts)


> Lawrence Walker wrote:
>
> >  Most have agreed that the Next IS a classic
>
> Definitely classic.  However, I have an issue with mine.  When I power
> it off, either via the OS, or by hitting the nifty green power button
on
> the keyboard, it does it's shutdown routine, and then, instead of
> actually powering off, it powers off, and then back on.
>
> Anyone else experience this?
>
> --
>
>
> Tim Harrison
> Network Engineer
> harrison@timharrison.com
> http://www.networklevel.com/
>


From ncherry at home.net  Tue Oct 10 16:51:33 2000
From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: Moving a Microvax II
References: <F209qJmdTcjJxWY5pCx000116ed@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <39E38F65.95DDC886@home.net>

Will Jennings wrote:
> 
> Haha, ah yes... gotta love Virgil Rice.. I bought something from him once
> and even though I picked it up from his house, he still wanted me to pay
> like 30 bucks shipping.

Oh, now I understand the reference! Sorry about that.

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Tue Oct 10 17:34:17 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: 4004?
Message-ID: <007401c0330b$267ae920$f70d9a8d@ajp166>

From: John Allain <John.Allain@donnelley.infousa.com>


>
>Dwight> I think Kilby's was for the IC, not CPU.


It was the basic idea of an IC.

>Anybody know the line of products from TI, the ID's,
>of the stuff coming from JK's first chip?


The most infamous is the 709 opamp.

Allison



From KenzieM at sympatico.ca  Tue Oct 10 18:00:51 2000
From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: Mac IIsi memory
References: <l0310280bb6080af8b1c5@[192.168.1.4]> from Mike Ford at "Oct9, 0 03:54:45 pm" <l03102800b6088c19e618@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <014401c03311$78831110$7d723dcf@sympatico.ca>


----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Ford <mikeford@socal.rr.com>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 5:11 AM
Subject: Re: Mac IIsi memory


> >> Nothing desirable. BTW if you can swap memory between a
IIsi and a 7300 I
> >> want to watch, one is 30 pin SIMM the other 168 pin
DIMM.
> >
> >I meant money-wise :-) At $65 a SIMM, I'd rather spend
the money on DIMMs
> >for the Power Mac and my Apple Network Server.
>
> Its a bit odd, but $$$ per MB the most expensive are 4 MB
30 pin simms,
> which go for $5 to $7 each, while the 16 MB are mostly
less than $20.

You have to shop around I just picked up 48 pieces of 4 meg
30pin and 12 1 meg for $20 cdn.
Only 1 in the bag was damaged.  I also picked up 2 SCSI
terminators and a ISA Future Domain SCSI card for $2 from
the same guy a  week earlier.

My old 486 now has 32 meg in it, my MAC iisi has 17, my
testbed has another 16 in it, I'm looking at the 386's now.

Does the the IIgs doesn't use 30 pin, does the MAC SE?
 before I open the case)



From jrasite at eoni.com  Tue Oct 10 18:40:18 2000
From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: NeXT hardware issue (was: mac serial pinouts)
References: <200010092139.QAA40610@opal.tseinc.com> <39E2539A.30197.93BE1E@localhost> <39E29FF4.A12C400B@timharrison.com> <00ce01c03304$52094980$24731fd1@default>
Message-ID: <39E3A8B5.23B98260@eoni.com>

Just a guess, but are the main power switches on NeXT systems similiar
to the Centris/Quadra Macs in that the back panel switch can be turned
to enable a continuous power on setting. So that it can be unattended?

Jim Arnott

"John R. Keys Jr." wrote:
> 
> I have the same problem on a NeXT slab, I just pull the plug on it to
> cut power.  If you get a fix let me know.  Thanks
> John Keys
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tim Harrison" <harrison@timharrison.com>
> To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 11:49 PM
> Subject: NeXT hardware issue (was: mac serial pinouts)
> 
> > Lawrence Walker wrote:
> >
> > >  Most have agreed that the Next IS a classic
> >
> > Definitely classic.  However, I have an issue with mine.  When I power
> > it off, either via the OS, or by hitting the nifty green power button
> on
> > the keyboard, it does it's shutdown routine, and then, instead of
> > actually powering off, it powers off, and then back on.
> >
> > Anyone else experience this?
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> > Tim Harrison
> > Network Engineer
> > harrison@timharrison.com
> > http://www.networklevel.com/
> >

From SUPRDAVE at aol.com  Tue Oct 10 18:44:44 2000
From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: Mac IIsi memory
Message-ID: <f6.3765474.271503ec@aol.com>

In a message dated 10/10/00 7:36:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
KenzieM@sympatico.ca writes:

> 
>  Does the the IIgs doesn't use 30 pin, does the MAC SE?
>   before I open the case)
>  

that model of the apple // does not use SIMMs although I did find a gs with a 
memory expansion card that could take 4meg of 30pin simms...

DB Young         ICQ:  29427634

hurry, hurry, step right up!  see the computers you used as a kid! 

http://www.nothingtodo.org
                           

From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com  Tue Oct 10 19:09:51 2000
From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:50 2005
Subject: 48v dc power
In-Reply-To: <l03102803b5e92480ede8@[192.168.1.4]>; from mikeford@socal.rr.com on Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 05:25:23AM -0800
References: <000f01c01f7a$06718cf0$2b0e9a8d@ajp166> <l03102803b5e92480ede8@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <20001010170951.F17446@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com>

On Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 05:25:23AM -0800, Mike Ford wrote:
> I have some 48-57 vdc input, otherwise PC normal output power supplies for
> about $5 each. Ask now if anybody wants some, basically I "think" new units

What I could really use is a couple of 12V input supplies.  I want to
put a PC in the car and also run a couple of servers from a battery/
solar panel system.  I know they are available new for $120ish if memory
serves but they shouldn't have to cost so much.

-- 
  _______                   Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD  ecloud@bigfoot.com
 (_  | |_)          http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud  kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org
 __) | | \________________________________________________________________
 Free long distance at http://www.bigredwire.com/me/RefTrack?id=USA063420

From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com  Tue Oct 10 19:54:49 2000
From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: 48v dc power
References: <000f01c01f7a$06718cf0$2b0e9a8d@ajp166> <l03102803b5e92480ede8@[192.168.1.4]> <20001010170951.F17446@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com>
Message-ID: <39E3BA59.3D0FE289@mcmanis.com>

Why not buy a "dead" UPS that can over the wattage of your system and
install a 12V in plug on the back. Most of these use a 12V DC input and
provide acceptable power on the output. Its cheaper than simply buying a
12V -> 120V inverter @600Watts or so. 

--Chuck


"Shawn T. Rutledge" wrote:
> 
> On Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 05:25:23AM -0800, Mike Ford wrote:
> > I have some 48-57 vdc input, otherwise PC normal output power supplies for
> > about $5 each. Ask now if anybody wants some, basically I "think" new units
> 
> What I could really use is a couple of 12V input supplies.  I want to
> put a PC in the car and also run a couple of servers from a battery/
> solar panel system.  I know they are available new for $120ish if memory
> serves but they shouldn't have to cost so much.
> 
> --
>   _______                   Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD  ecloud@bigfoot.com
>  (_  | |_)          http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud  kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org
>  __) | | \________________________________________________________________
>  Free long distance at http://www.bigredwire.com/me/RefTrack?id=USA063420

From jrasite at eoni.com  Tue Oct 10 19:40:14 2000
From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: Mac IIsi memory
References: <l0310280bb6080af8b1c5@[192.168.1.4]> from Mike Ford at "Oct9, 0 03:54:45 pm" <l03102800b6088c19e618@[192.168.1.4]> <014401c03311$78831110$7d723dcf@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <39E3B6BC.AC5FD329@eoni.com>

The SE uses 30 pin, but not much... 4mb max.  That's a pair of twos.

A good SE resource is at <http://www.edprint.demon.co.uk/se/index.html>

Jim Arnott

From ip500 at home.com  Tue Oct 10 20:05:56 2000
From: ip500 at home.com (ip500)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: Intel iPSC/1
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010101333400.7250-100000@planetdoug.com>
Message-ID: <39E3BCF4.1370F07E@home.com>



Doug Salot wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 10 Oct 2000, ip500 wrote:
> 
> >       This sould just make the 10 year rule.... Ran across one over the
> > weekend at a local University auction. Anyone have pointers to Doc's on
> > these cool Hypercubes?
> 
> Damn, I've been looking for one of those :-)
	This one had a 4 digit serial number--must have made more than a few!
> 
> Whatever docs I have are archived on tape and burried someplace.  I played
> around with an iPSC/1 around 1987, so you're OK as far as the 10-year rule
> goes. AFAIK, it was Intel's first attempt at a supercomputer.  It was
> based on the Cosmic Cube project at Cal Tech.
> 
> It's basically a bunch of 286's in a hypercube topology.  Each node had
> something like 512K RAM, and the internode communication wasn't very fast
> -- it might have been ethernet.
	Ethernet it is....
> 
> I don't recall there being any console as such.  You talked to the thing
> through a 286 box running Xenix connected via ethernet, which uploaded
> your parallel app to each of the nodes, started the app, and collected the
> output.
	Excellent...Thank You. That explains the Intel 310 that came along with
some other junk.... it has ports on the back marked "cube" and ethernet.
Huge 286 box that I think ran XENIX.
> 
> It ran an OS called CrOS, which was basically just a communication
> manager.  There was no shell or filesystem or anything like that -- the
> box was intended to be used as an execution engine.  Intel provided a
> Unix-hosted simulator (which I think was developed at Cal Tech), so you
> could debug the apps using more or less standard tools before uploading
> your code.
	Take a look at Paul Pierce's page:
http://www.piercefuller.com
	He said he wrote the O/S for it.
Thanks agin for the info,
Craig
> 
> Cheers,
> Doug

From SUPRDAVE at aol.com  Tue Oct 10 20:30:43 2000
From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: Toshiba T1000se
Message-ID: <70.3c41229.27151cc3@aol.com>

Picked this machine up today and it works fine even though i didnt get the ac 
adaptor. thankfully it uses a 7.2v battery so I used my rc car battery to run 
it. The only info i can find is that it's a 10mhz 8088 with a 1.44 floppy and 
1 meg. it also has a ram drive or DOS in ROM <?>. does this thing have a hard 
drive or graphic LCD? what about memory expansion?

DB Young         ICQ:  29427634

hurry, hurry, step right up!  see the computers you used as a kid! 

http://www.nothingtodo.org
                           

From jhfine at idirect.com  Tue Oct 10 20:52:50 2000
From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: Another PDP-11 available: Wisconsin
References: <20001009172543.A27212@mrbill.net>
			<39E2764D.7D0537EC@idirect.com> <14818.40168.216827.37869@phaduka.neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <39E3C7F2.A1FF021F@idirect.com>

>Dave McGuire wrote:

> There's nothing anyone here can say that would convince me that this
> message is anything but a very enthusiastic and rather caustic TROLL.

Jerome Fine replies:

Thank you for the compliment - was it?  What does TROLL stand for.
If you are going to pay me a compliment, at least have the courtesy
of explaining it.  Thank you.

Sincerely yours,

Jerome Fine


From jhfine at idirect.com  Tue Oct 10 20:53:15 2000
From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: Moving a Microvax II
References: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0010101423340.1114-100000@server.wes.mee.com>
Message-ID: <39E3C80B.47B298FD@idirect.com>

>Frederik Meerwaldt wrote:

> > I need to transport a Microvax II (BA-123) and need to know what I should
> > do before it takes this trip. Any suggestions?
> Take out the Hard Disks in the front of the computer.
> I moved my MicroVAX with no changes, and then one HDD was dead after the
> move. But that's the only thing what comes to my mind.

Jerome Fine replies:

About the only reason to take EVERYTHING out is that the BA123 box is
VERY heavy even with everything out - especially for one person - or at
least it is for me at my stage at 62.  But, if you find that two people are easily
able to handle the full BA123 box, then you are not likely to gain any additional
comfort for the HDDs if you can handle the BA123 box carefully even when
fully loaded.  And place it on a couple of blankets inside the vehicle to cushion
shock while driving.

The drive most likely to fail all by itself over time is an RD53.  If you have those,
look for replacements right away.

If you do want to take the HDD from the BA123, there is a certain order to
removing the panels!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(a)  The long side panels FIRST since they hold the front panel in place.  The
trick is to slide the side panel up an inch or even less and then angle it out and
free it from the front panel.  Also, look for hold down bolts FIRST and remove
them from those side panels.  One is at the bottom of the side panel at the
front on the left side (port) and one at the back bottom on the right side (starboard).
(b) Then the front plastic panel - be careful - it is not delicate, but don't force.
(c) The rest does not really matter.

Sincerely yours,

Jerome Fine


From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com  Tue Oct 10 21:30:12 2000
From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: 48v dc power
In-Reply-To: <39E3BA59.3D0FE289@mcmanis.com>; from cmcmanis@mcmanis.com on Tue, Oct 10, 2000 at 05:54:49PM -0700
References: <000f01c01f7a$06718cf0$2b0e9a8d@ajp166> <l03102803b5e92480ede8@[192.168.1.4]> <20001010170951.F17446@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> <39E3BA59.3D0FE289@mcmanis.com>
Message-ID: <20001010193011.G17446@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com>

On Tue, Oct 10, 2000 at 05:54:49PM -0700, Chuck McManis wrote:
> Why not buy a "dead" UPS that can over the wattage of your system and
> install a 12V in plug on the back. Most of these use a 12V DC input and
> provide acceptable power on the output. Its cheaper than simply buying a
> 12V -> 120V inverter @600Watts or so. 

Because it's grossly inefficient.  Why convert from 12V to 120V AC and
then back to 12V, 5V, etc... they design some really efficient DC-DC
converters for laptops (to convert battery voltage to 5V) so it should
be possible (cheaply) for desktops also.

-- 
  _______                   Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD  ecloud@bigfoot.com
 (_  | |_)          http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud  kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org
 __) | | \________________________________________________________________
 Free long distance at http://www.bigredwire.com/me/RefTrack?id=USA063420

From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Tue Oct 10 21:56:24 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: Another PDP-11 available: Wisconsin
Message-ID: <00c301c0332f$d41d3fa0$f70d9a8d@ajp166>

From: Jerome Fine <jhfine@idirect.com>

>>Dave McGuire wrote:
>
>> There's nothing anyone here can say that would convince me that this
>> message is anything but a very enthusiastic and rather caustic TROLL.
>
>Jerome Fine replies:
>
>Thank you for the compliment - was it?  What does TROLL stand for.
>If you are going to pay me a compliment, at least have the courtesy
>of explaining it.  Thank you.
>
>Sincerely yours,
>
>Jerome Fine


Troll, funny little doll with a stupid grin and as a character in
strories
known for propensity to start or fan trouble into a really big fire.
Not a compliment.  Usually reserved for those that hit a group
causing a flash fire and running.

On the other hand the posting was rather strong.  There is nothing
wrong with an 11/2.  True an 11/23 has more oomph and all but an
11/2 is configurable as a very nice small machine.  Paying 100$
for one is questionable in my mind on because they were so
common (over 100,000 cpu boards made).  I have a few.

Allison





From foo at siconic.com  Tue Oct 10 21:16:24 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: Another PDP-11 available: Wisconsin
In-Reply-To: <39E3C7F2.A1FF021F@idirect.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010101907460.1404-100000@siconic.com>

On Tue, 10 Oct 2000, Jerome Fine wrote:

> > There's nothing anyone here can say that would convince me that this
> > message is anything but a very enthusiastic and rather caustic TROLL.
> 
> Jerome Fine replies:
> 
> Thank you for the compliment - was it?  What does TROLL stand for.
> If you are going to pay me a compliment, at least have the courtesy
> of explaining it.  Thank you.

A "troll" is something someone says in order to elicit flammable vitriole
from unwitting passersby (i.e. much in the same way one "trolls" for
fish...you cast out a line and drag it behind your boat hoping some
hapless creature snags onto it).

So, in fact, you were being slightly insulted.  However, I did not see
your comments as a "troll", but merely an opinion.  Furthermore, I think
the acceptance of "trolling" as a concept in the sense that it was used
here is stupid.  Sure, some people go out of their way to inflame an
issue, but the "troll" accusation is often overused, as people sometimes
can't tell the difference between an enthusiastic opinion and deliberate
blatherskite.

Sellam                                International Man of Intrigue and Danger
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...

                       VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
               San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
                    See http://www.vintage.org for details!



From dburrows at netpath.net  Tue Oct 10 22:41:46 2000
From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: 48v dc power
Message-ID: <032801c03339$ee1bb6c0$a652e780@L166>

Only a few UPS's use 12 volts.  Many use 36  or 48 volts.  Then you get into
the 3KVA units that have 96 volt bank of batteries.  The real nice 10+KVA
boxes have 180 to 300V battery banks.  Some day I will get a new battery
bank for my 10 KVA box for the office.  In the meantime I make do with a few
1 to 3 KVA boxes.

Also some of the 12v UPS's will not start from just battery.  They have to
"fail over to battery"  I do have a 1KVA Triplite that is 12V and does start
from just battery.  So keep your eyes open for those.

Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck McManis <cmcmanis@mcmanis.com>
To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Date: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 8:52 PM
Subject: Re: 48v dc power


>Why not buy a "dead" UPS that can over the wattage of your system and
>install a 12V in plug on the back. Most of these use a 12V DC input and
>provide acceptable power on the output. Its cheaper than simply buying a
>12V -> 120V inverter @600Watts or so.
>
>--Chuck
>
>
>"Shawn T. Rutledge" wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 05:25:23AM -0800, Mike Ford wrote:
>> > I have some 48-57 vdc input, otherwise PC normal output power supplies
for
>> > about $5 each. Ask now if anybody wants some, basically I "think" new
units
>>
>> What I could really use is a couple of 12V input supplies.  I want to
>> put a PC in the car and also run a couple of servers from a battery/
>> solar panel system.  I know they are available new for $120ish if memory
>> serves but they shouldn't have to cost so much.
>>
>> --
>>   _______                   Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD
ecloud@bigfoot.com
>>  (_  | |_)          http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud
kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org
>>  __) | |
\________________________________________________________________
>>  Free long distance at http://www.bigredwire.com/me/RefTrack?id=USA063420


From THETechnoid at home.com  Wed Oct 11 01:17:03 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: Geekdom vs the Fourth Estate
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0010100415410.12685-100000@panix2.panix.com>
Message-ID: <20001011060920.WALK4090.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

Bob Moog is an aquaintance and customer of mine.  My good friend Siox is
his secretary.  Is there any thing I might be able to help with? Big Briar
is only eight miles from my house.

Jeff





In <Pine.NEB.4.21.0010100415410.12685-100000@panix2.panix.com>, on
10/11/00 
   at 02:17 AM, John Lawson <jpl15@panix.com> said:


>  Here in India, because of my previous association with MGM Studios, I
>find myself cast (rather unwillingly on my part) as a bit of a celebrity,
>and so I have been interviewed by several different reporters from
>various media.

>  During an interview with a fellow from The Hindu, the largest paper in
>India, we got into a discussion of my own personal recording studio and
>collection of vintage electronic instruments.  I had been asked to
>provide photos, which I brought.

>  In the pack pf pictures, two or three of my computer collection were
>intermingled, and the discussion turned for a few minutes to the
>preservation of technology in general, and why anyone would want a house
>full of PDP11s, etc.  They took several of the photos to run with the
>article; I gave them a brief description of the studio and it's
>equipment, and... they ran the picture of am DEC stuff, over the caption
>for the music gear, after we all agreed *not* to.

>  I'm *still* getting calls from tech-heads who can't figure out just
>what model Moog Synth takes up 11 linear feet of 6' racks with a Kennedy
>9100 stuck in the middle of it.

>    sigh.

>  This, more or less, has happened each and every time I have given a
>press interview on a technical subject in the last 15 years.

>  This one just happens to be classiccmp-related...  


> Cheers

>John



-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From THETechnoid at home.com  Wed Oct 11 01:21:11 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
In-Reply-To: <39DE5AE5.B6A03202@timharrison.com>
Message-ID: <20001011062628.WPPX4090.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

In <39DE5AE5.B6A03202@timharrison.com>, on 10/11/00 
   at 02:21 AM, Tim Harrison <harrison@timharrison.com> said:

>I was more referring to the system stopping traps.  Those used to make my
>heart stop, as they were very rare in my 5 years of OS/2 experience
>(maybe I was a lucky one... I've heard others constantly having problems
>-- although I usually found they were hardware problems).

Usually hardware. I remember ten or twelve in the last five years and most
were hardware or something stupid I did. That is a total for ten machines. 
I think two or three of those traps were unexplainable. 

>I thought about calling an IBM tech support line one day, and just
>reading random information to them, to see if they even knew what I was
>talking about. :)

I once did report via the web submission form.  In one day, they called me
and said that the DualStore backup product driver I was running would not
work on a Networked Warp4 machine With a Floppytapedrive.  Now that is
pretty cool.  I wanted the program to run but had just upgraded from
Connect. They gave me the right answer even if it wasn't the one I wanted
to hear. It is the only time I have ever been forced to change software or
hardware on OS/2 in seven years. I've upgraded but that has been by
choice. :-)

> 
>> OS/2 has allways had a neato replacement (diagnostic) kernel which allows
>> terminals to access the system even if it is crashed. I have never used
>> it.

>I feel remarkably stupid.  I don't think I've ever seen that...

It is the OS2KRNLD file.  Don't recall if it ships with the system or is a
download, but it is freely available. The symbol file ships with the os
for the diagnostic kernel for sure. It is OS2KRNLD.SYM in the
\os2\pdpsi\pmdf\warp4 directory.

I doubt you are stupid or even remarkably so.

Regards,

Jeff



-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Wed Oct 11 01:28:52 2000
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: Another PDP-11 available: Wisconsin
In-Reply-To: Re: Another PDP-11 available: Wisconsin (Jerome Fine)
References: <20001009172543.A27212@mrbill.net>
	<39E2764D.7D0537EC@idirect.com>
	<14818.40168.216827.37869@phaduka.neurotica.com>
	<39E3C7F2.A1FF021F@idirect.com>
Message-ID: <14820.2212.216529.442031@phaduka.neurotica.com>

On October 10, Jerome Fine wrote:
> > There's nothing anyone here can say that would convince me that this
> > message is anything but a very enthusiastic and rather caustic TROLL.
> 
> Jerome Fine replies:
> 
> Thank you for the compliment - was it?  What does TROLL stand for.
> If you are going to pay me a compliment, at least have the courtesy
> of explaining it.  Thank you.

  Oh, it was intended neither as a compliment or as a derogatory remark.
A "troll" is an opinionated statement on a volatile subject intended
to start a flame war.

       -Dave McGuire

From THETechnoid at home.com  Wed Oct 11 01:36:25 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: NeXT hardware issue (was: mac serial pinouts)
In-Reply-To: <00ce01c03304$52094980$24731fd1@default>
Message-ID: <20001011062744.WQUL4090.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

Yea.  Windows 98 box on my last service call......

<Grin>

Jeff

>> Lawrence Walker wrote:
>>
>> >  Most have agreed that the Next IS a classic
>>
>> Definitely classic.  However, I have an issue with mine.  When I power
>> it off, either via the OS, or by hitting the nifty green power button
>on
>> the keyboard, it does it's shutdown routine, and then, instead of
>> actually powering off, it powers off, and then back on.
>>
>> Anyone else experience this?
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>> Tim Harrison
>> Network Engineer
>> harrison@timharrison.com
>> http://www.networklevel.com/
>>


-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From THETechnoid at home.com  Wed Oct 11 01:37:50 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: Intel iPSC/1
In-Reply-To: <39E3209D.426CEF0C@home.com>
Message-ID: <20001011063034.WTJF4090.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

Yup.  I've tried to convince mine that a 'cool' computer would look good
as furniture.  She hasn't bought it yet.....

I do have a Sparcstation 4/330 in my dining room next to the desk, but all
other gear is in the basement and HUMMING!

Jeff

>I couldn't talk my wife into using it for a lamp table in the
>living room...although it is pretty cool & "modern" looking]
>	Any info appreciated.
>	Thanks, Craig

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com  Wed Oct 11 02:21:03 2000
From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: ZDNet article
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001011002103.00929eb0@pop.sttl.uswest.net>

	ZDNet has actually published something interesting for a change. An
article on "Why the world needs reverse engineers." Here's the link.

http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2636304,00.html

	I read it through, and thought it was pretty decent. There's space for
talkbacks as well. Enjoy!


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies
http://www.bluefeathertech.com  // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com
Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 (Extra class as of June-2K)
"I'll get a life when someone demonstrates to me that it would be
superior to what I have now..." (Gym Z. Quirk, aka Taki Kogoma).

From wrm at ccii.co.za  Wed Oct 11 07:02:58 2000
From: wrm at ccii.co.za (Wouter de Waal)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: OT collecting old pinballs
Message-ID: <200010111202.KAA08902@ccii.co.za>

>How do you tell the pinballs apart?

You look at the scratches *very* carefully -- it's like fingerprints :-)

Hey, we normally talk about "pins", think about all the things you
could have said about that :-)

>Well, they are older than my car

Ja, but you live in the states (I assume). Our newest Land-Rover is a
1965, my one is a '59, my wife drives a '55. My Puma is a 1974 (and,
I had to pull up my web page to get that information -- now *THAT'S*
crazy :-)

Restoring? Both Land-Rovers and pinball machines (OK?) can be rebuilt
from the ground up. Fascinating hobby, these analog computers (And I'm
not talking about the LR, OK?)

Some people, sheesh! :-)

W 


From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Wed Oct 11 04:00:24 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: Hp 7545 plotter
In-Reply-To: <00ce01c03304$52094980$24731fd1@default>
References: <200010092139.QAA40610@opal.tseinc.com>
 <39E2539A.30197.93BE1E@localhost> <39E29FF4.A12C400B@timharrison.com>
Message-ID: <l03102804b609dc40708b@[192.168.1.4]>

Hp 7545 plotter showed up with a bunch of ex lab stuff today, looks to be
in working condition. Its in socal, and I will be back to that place later
this week, so email asap if interested.



From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Wed Oct 11 03:57:51 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: High priced vendors, was Moving a Microvax II
In-Reply-To: <39E389C7.67BC8CB3@home.net>
References: <l03102802b608fa21d260@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <l03102803b609c5e12cff@[192.168.1.4]>

>Kind of like a particular Ford dealer here in Central Jersey, Attempted to
>sell me a Mutsang ;-) at 30% above teh going price. I'd already been to 3
>other dealers and I gave them their price. The Sales droid got mad at me!

The problem with stinking car salesdroids is that they get "points" for
things other than selling you a car. First up Salesmanagers want to see
lists of customer names and phone numbers for follow up calls. The most
annoying though is the "waste your time until the other deal goes sour".
The idea is that many people can only take so much time off work, so if
they keep you tied up with promises and paperwork until its too late to
drive to another dealer... maybe they have you over a barrel.

I haven't found anybody in the surplus or old computer biz that is "mean",
usually just flakey. ;)



From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Wed Oct 11 04:15:58 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: 48v dc power
In-Reply-To: <20001010170951.F17446@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com>
References: <l03102803b5e92480ede8@[192.168.1.4]>; from
 mikeford@socal.rr.com on Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 05:25:23AM -0800
 <000f01c01f7a$06718cf0$2b0e9a8d@ajp166>
 <l03102803b5e92480ede8@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <l03102807b609df893671@[192.168.1.4]>

>On Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 05:25:23AM -0800, Mike Ford wrote:
>> I have some 48-57 vdc input, otherwise PC normal output power supplies for
>> about $5 each. Ask now if anybody wants some, basically I "think" new units
>
>What I could really use is a couple of 12V input supplies.  I want to
>put a PC in the car and also run a couple of servers from a battery/
>solar panel system.  I know they are available new for $120ish if memory
>serves but they shouldn't have to cost so much.

Buy a HUGE old UPS, toss the batteries and use your own 12v source. Very
cheap at most junk emporii.

BTW I will have responses etc. to all on my power supplies mentioned above,
but between my son's homework and working with a PC for the first time, its
slow going. Images are on the PC, but over a MB each. I "know" what to do,
its just slow going.



From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Wed Oct 11 04:09:45 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: Mac IIsi memory
In-Reply-To: <014401c03311$78831110$7d723dcf@sympatico.ca>
References: <l0310280bb6080af8b1c5@[192.168.1.4]> from Mike Ford at "Oct9,
 0 03:54:45 pm" <l03102800b6088c19e618@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <l03102805b609dda8c504@[192.168.1.4]>

>You have to shop around I just picked up 48 pieces of 4 meg
>30pin and 12 1 meg for $20 cdn.

I know someone that was paid $5000 to hual away twenty pallets of computers
and monitors, and in theory it could be repeated, but I don't look at one
of a kind deals as representitive of pricing in general.

Having tested the memory you shouldn't have any trouble selling 4 x 4MB
sets for about $20 to $25.

IIgs uses ram expansion cards, complete different.

I don't think 4 mb simms go in a SE either, max 8 MB I think.



From dpeschel at eskimo.com  Wed Oct 11 03:57:05 2000
From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: 4004?
In-Reply-To: <000001c032e7$b95455c0$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com> from "John Allain" at Oct 10, 2000 02:27:17 PM
Message-ID: <200010110857.BAA15496@eskimo.com>

> Anybody know the line of products from TI, the ID's,
> of the stuff coming from JK's first chip?

Have a look at _State of the Art_ by Stan Augarten
(foreword by Ray Bradbury!).  It's not meant to be
authoritiative, but It has a surprisingly interesting
selection of information, as well as lots of neat full-
page pictures.

I suspect it's out of print.

-- Derek

From agraham at ccat.co.uk  Wed Oct 11 04:01:23 2000
From: agraham at ccat.co.uk (Adrian Graham)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: $700 C64 on ebay, P500's
Message-ID: <00Oct11.100125bst.46093@gatekeeper.ccat.co.uk>

>Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 10:25:12 -0500
>From: "FBA" <fauradon@mn.mediaone.net>
>Subject: Re: Moving a Microvax II

>Speaking of ebay: here is a $700 commodore 64 with the reserve not met
>http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=454431985
>Francois

Pfffffft! <wipes monitor> Clearly someone who hasn't done any research.

As a CBM-related aside, having found one of the rare/ultra rare/not rare at
all/discuss P500s a while back I get a phone call from an ex-collector who's
found the stable-mate to mine in his loft, in identical condition, serial
numbers only 32 apart, another one appears on eBay and sells for ukp300 then
someone ELSE offers me ANOTHER P500 with a couple of chips missing, Highest
serial number seen so far: 1296.

I don't know whether to be pleased with mine or not! 

BTW, big site update at www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk (or
www.fop.i12.com/museum-frame.htm if that doesn't work). Many new pictures,
all pong carts catalogued and some info added on some of the more uncommon
machines, eg Enterprise 64, P500, BBC Domesday etc. Come along and don't
forget to stand on the antistatic mat on the way in. :)

--
Adrian Graham MCSE/ASE/MCP
C CAT Limited
Gubbins: http://www.ccat.co.uk (work)
<http://www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk> (home)
<http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk> (80's computer collection)
"Missing you already" - Mark Radcliffe


From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com  Wed Oct 11 08:27:58 2000
From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: 48v dc power
In-Reply-To: <032801c03339$ee1bb6c0$a652e780@L166>
Message-ID: <000801c03387$12eae780$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>

I have an unused/untested UPS available free
to a lister.  It is a tossed inverter/power 
manager that needed IIRC an external 24V 
battery set.  About 1.5'x1.5'x1' and 40-60lbs.
In NY.  Contact if interested.

John A.

From rdd at smart.net  Wed Oct 11 08:55:16 2000
From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: High priced vendors, was Moving a Microvax II
In-Reply-To: <l03102803b609c5e12cff@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010110943570.832-100000@smarty.smart.net>

On Wed, 11 Oct 2000, Mike Ford wrote:
> The problem with stinking car salesdroids is that they get "points" for

If you _really_ want to annoy car salesdroids, here's what to do.
Drive to a auto dealer's lot, while being very well dressed, in a
largish, 25+ year old car, that doesn't look too good on the outside,
but is very comfortable to drive and has a nice-looking, spacious,
interior.  Go into the showroom, sit in the various models, then start
asking the salespests why everything in the new cars is so cheaply
made - plastic doorhandles, no chrome, no knobs on the radios, seats
that are paper thin, cheap looking interiors, gripe about the lack of
footroom, ask why the cars, including the "full-size" models, are all
so small.  Tell them that your 18-foot long car parked outside was
only a mid-size car when new, and it has much more room inside.  Offer
to let them sit in your car to see how comfortable it is, how smooth
it rides and how much foot-room is in it.  After you've taken up about
an hour or three of their time, looking at every car in sight, taking
a few test drives, politely tell them, in front of other customers,
that they couldn't _pay_ you enough to own one of their cars instead
of what you already have.

> I haven't found anybody in the surplus or old computer biz that is "mean",
> usually just flakey. ;)

Nah, not flakey, just a tad eccentric. ;-)

--
Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of
All Rights Reserved            Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to
rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd   a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD 





From jhfine at idirect.com  Wed Oct 11 09:54:33 2000
From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: Another PDP-11 available: Wisconsin
References: <00c301c0332f$d41d3fa0$f70d9a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <39E47F29.D7671C52@idirect.com>

>ajp166 wrote:

> On the other hand the posting was rather strong.  There is nothing
> wrong with an 11/2.  True an 11/23 has more oomph and all but an
> 11/2 is configurable as a very nice small machine.  Paying 100$
> for one is questionable in my mind on because they were so
> common (over 100,000 cpu boards made).  I have a few.

Jerome Fine replies:

I have a few as well - and if I can ever find someone to actually use
them, they will go for free.  I can't ever remember actually using
one although I might have attempted to test one just to see if
it would work - in hindsight, I don't know why since I never
had any intention of getting by with just RT11FB in RT-11.
Actually, I have both versions - dual and quad.

This is not a slight on those who like hardware far more than
I do, just my own opinion - which I believe I stated at the beginning.
The key point is that when testing software, the emulator is so
much faster that it runs rings around the real hardware.  PLUS -
and this is a VERY  BIG  PLUS - I had occasion to attempt
to debug (or at least understand) the boot code for a stand alone
program.  Try stepping through the boot block of an RX02 on
a real PDP-11.  With the emulator and even rudimentary
[Thank goodness for the spell checker!!] debugging facilities
(only one break point address - but at least single step was
enabled), it was trivial - after all, there was only a single block
of code to debug.

In fact, I very much admire someone who can rescue an 11/44
from the scrap heap.  But I do not know how and I am too busy
in any case.  And my back is no longer strong enough.

Sincerely yours,

Jerome Fine


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Wed Oct 11 12:24:23 2000
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: VCF 4.0
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010051557260.24937-100000@siconic.com>
References: <20001005203431.WKPX6495.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>
Message-ID: <39E4BE67.17413.21B737C@localhost>

> > How can I get the VCF to hold it's event a bit closer to the East Coast
> > than California?  I wanted to go, but a 3500mile trek was out of the
> > question.  How about Montana or the Dakotas?

> Keep making noise.  We started looking in to doing a VCF East this year
> and it's been on my mind for the past couple years, but it's a lot of work
> as you may imagine, and now that VCF Europe is in the Spring we have to
> plan it either right after or right before (when the weather isn't too
> terrible).

PLEASE, give me some break - right around eVCF is a bad idea. The time
before I may be ocupied by some kind of organisation, while right
after I'm occupied by Sallam :)) Serious, I'd realy love to visit
VCF East, or Midwest or Whatever. In my opinion mid June may be a
reasonable time frame.

Gruss
H.

BTW, VCF.CA has been great as always ... 

--
VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen
http://www.vintage.org/vcfe
http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

From epgroot at ucdavis.edu  Wed Oct 11 14:27:06 2000
From: epgroot at ucdavis.edu (Edwin P. Groot)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: VCF 4.0
In-Reply-To: <39E4BE67.17413.21B737C@localhost>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010051557260.24937-100000@siconic.com>
 <20001005203431.WKPX6495.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001011122706.007d3bc0@yellow.ucdavis.edu>

     I don't recall there being a VCF.CAnada! Perhaps you are confusing .CA
with some other country, like CAlifornia, which is officially a state in
the U.S., but might as well be a separate country!

     Edwin

At 07:24 PM 10/11/2000 +0200, you wrote:
>PLEASE, give me some break - right around eVCF is a bad idea. The time
>before I may be ocupied by some kind of organisation, while right
>after I'm occupied by Sallam :)) Serious, I'd realy love to visit
>VCF East, or Midwest or Whatever. In my opinion mid June may be a
>reasonable time frame.
>
>Gruss
>H.
>
>BTW, VCF.CA has been great as always ... 
>


From Innfogra at aol.com  Wed Oct 11 14:38:30 2000
From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: Need Keyboard for TRS 80 model 100
Message-ID: <cc.b217048.27161bb6@aol.com>

Hi;

I just got a TRS-80  Model 100 Portable computer. It rattled when I picked it 
up. After opening it up I see that it has a busted keyboard. 

Does anyone have a spare keyboard from a parts 100? I would like to get it up 
and running again.

Thanks,
Paxton
Portland, OR

From geoff at pkworks.com  Wed Oct 11 15:27:49 2000
From: geoff at pkworks.com (Geoffrey G. Rochat)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: Another PDP-11 available: Wisconsin
Message-ID: <002001c033c1$ba1029a0$a3a37ed8@xyz.wmsnet.com>

If you want to lose one of those 11/2s, please get in touch!

-----Original Message-----
From: Jerome Fine <jhfine@idirect.com>
To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Date: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 11:11 AM
Subject: Re: Another PDP-11 available: Wisconsin


>>ajp166 wrote:
>
>> On the other hand the posting was rather strong.  There is nothing
>> wrong with an 11/2.  True an 11/23 has more oomph and all but an
>> 11/2 is configurable as a very nice small machine.  Paying 100$
>> for one is questionable in my mind on because they were so
>> common (over 100,000 cpu boards made).  I have a few.
>
>Jerome Fine replies:
>
>I have a few as well - and if I can ever find someone to actually use
>them, they will go for free.  I can't ever remember actually using
>one although I might have attempted to test one just to see if
>it would work - in hindsight, I don't know why since I never
>had any intention of getting by with just RT11FB in RT-11.
>Actually, I have both versions - dual and quad.
>
>This is not a slight on those who like hardware far more than
>I do, just my own opinion - which I believe I stated at the beginning.
>The key point is that when testing software, the emulator is so
>much faster that it runs rings around the real hardware.  PLUS -
>and this is a VERY  BIG  PLUS - I had occasion to attempt
>to debug (or at least understand) the boot code for a stand alone
>program.  Try stepping through the boot block of an RX02 on
>a real PDP-11.  With the emulator and even rudimentary
>[Thank goodness for the spell checker!!] debugging facilities
>(only one break point address - but at least single step was
>enabled), it was trivial - after all, there was only a single block
>of code to debug.
>
>In fact, I very much admire someone who can rescue an 11/44
>from the scrap heap.  But I do not know how and I am too busy
>in any case.  And my back is no longer strong enough.
>
>Sincerely yours,
>
>Jerome Fine


From tarsi at binhost.com  Wed Oct 11 15:24:39 2000
From: tarsi at binhost.com (Tarsi)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: Compaq Deskpro 286
In-Reply-To: <cc.b217048.27161bb6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001011152342.024734f0@binhost.com>

Looking for information about a Compaq Deskpro 286.  I have two of 
them.  Would like to know some specs, how to get into the BIOS, etc.

Thank you!

Tarsi
210


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Wed Oct 11 15:33:31 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: Need Keyboard for TRS 80 model 100
In-Reply-To: <cc.b217048.27161bb6@aol.com> from "Innfogra@aol.com" at Oct 11, 2000 03:38:30 PM
Message-ID: <200010112033.NAA31675@shell1.aracnet.com>

> 
> Hi;
> 
> I just got a TRS-80  Model 100 Portable computer. It rattled when I picked it 
> up. After opening it up I see that it has a busted keyboard. 
> 
> Does anyone have a spare keyboard from a parts 100? I would like to get it up 
> and running again.
> 
> Thanks,
> Paxton
> Portland, OR
> 

You going to be at the swap meet[1] this weekend?  I might have one.

		Zane

[1] The CP/M Users Group Swap Meet is this weekend on Saturday from 8am till
about 2pm at the Tigard Senior Center in Tigard, Oregon (near Portland)

From rmeenaks at olf.com  Wed Oct 11 16:00:31 2000
From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: The Zoran ZR34325 Vector/Signal Processing CPU
Message-ID: <00ed01c033c6$4bcc3830$f1ea0191@olf.com>

Hi,

Does anyone have ANYTHING on this processor?  Development tools,
documentations, datasheets, etc?  It is the coprocessor on the Inmos IMSB420
Vector Processing TRAM.

Thanks,

Ram




From tarsi at binhost.com  Wed Oct 11 16:02:37 2000
From: tarsi at binhost.com (Tarsi)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: Another PDP-11 available: Wisconsin
In-Reply-To: <002001c033c1$ba1029a0$a3a37ed8@xyz.wmsnet.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001011160218.02472d80@binhost.com>

At 04:27 PM 10/11/00 -0400, you wrote:
>If you want to lose one of those 11/2s, please get in touch!

I'm sure I could find room for one as well. :)

Tarsi
210


From jpero at sympatico.ca  Wed Oct 11 12:06:30 2000
From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: Compaq Deskpro 286
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001011152342.024734f0@binhost.com>
References: <cc.b217048.27161bb6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20001011210715.EMRC10530.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@pii350>

> Date:          Wed, 11 Oct 2000 15:24:39 -0500
> To:            classiccmp@classiccmp.org
> From:          Tarsi <tarsi@binhost.com>
> Subject:       Compaq Deskpro 286
> Reply-to:      classiccmp@classiccmp.org

> Looking for information about a Compaq Deskpro 286.  I have two of 
> them.  Would like to know some specs, how to get into the BIOS, etc.

Problem is, compaq just nuked the older than 286 series from their 
older section tech-ref.  This machine is just run of mill 286 and the 
jumper and switch settings are on sticker stuck to top of drive cage 
or under the case cover.   To set it up, you need special bootable 
setup disk.  I can send you a file to help this by email attachment.

I had 286 w/ 2MB all in 256K x 1 DIPs on motherboard itself.  (!!)
Whole machine is heavy and power supply fan is NOISY.

Wizard

> 
> Thank you!
> 
> Tarsi
> 210
> 
> 

From rdd at smart.net  Wed Oct 11 16:11:30 2000
From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
In-Reply-To: <39E4BE67.17413.21B737C@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010111703530.14739-100000@smarty.smart.net>

On Wed, 11 Oct 2000, Hans Franke wrote:
> PLEASE, give me some break - right around eVCF is a bad idea. The time
> before I may be ocupied by some kind of organisation, while right
> after I'm occupied by Sallam :)) Serious, I'd realy love to visit
> VCF East, or Midwest or Whatever. In my opinion mid June may be a
> reasonable time frame.

Great, just what we need on the right coast, something else to cause
more damage to hamfests and deplete them of the few remaining
"vintage" computers. ...as if e-bilk wasn't bad enough.  Does anyone
(Tony (DRARD)?)  have an appropritately suitable LART for that idiot
who wrote the book on computer collecting a few years ago who got all
these problems started?  

--
Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of
All Rights Reserved            Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to
rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd   a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD 





From mac at Wireless.Com  Wed Oct 11 16:13:17 2000
From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: [PayPal] PayPal to start charging for what used to be free!
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.4.21.0010111407300.20614-100000@NameServer.Culver.Net>

Well, the Beginning of the End for PayPal, as I see it.  I predicted it.
It's happening.   Oh well!

Now can you see why I detest this low-life pond scum operation?  -Mike

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
               PayPal Raises Fees, Looks For New CEO and Profits

By STACY FORSTER 
October 10, 2000  


PayPal.com delivered a popular solution to a vexing problem -- how to
send and receive money over the Internet. But the bigger challenge for
the two-year-old start-up will be to make money in the process.

With its sights set on profitability and an initial public offering,
PayPal's parent company, closely held X.com, is looking for a new chief
executive officer. On Sunday, Elon Musk, the founder and chief executive
of X.com (www.x.com), said he is stepping down to allow the company to
bring in a leader with more experience.

"Elon has had great start-up experience, but he's never run a major
public company," says Peter Thiel, chairman of X.com. Mr. Thiel says he
expects the company to be profitable by the end of 2001.

And in move that may be controversial, PayPal will begin charging some
consumers fees on Oct. 16 for a service that used to be free. The
company, which had depended largely on interest income on cash in its
customers' accounts, plans to charge a fee of 1.9% plus 25 cents per
transaction for anyone who receives more than $500 in credit-card
payments in a six-month period. Before, only businesses were charged the
fee.

"They're struggling to come up with the business model," says James
VanDyke, an analyst with New York e-commerce research firm Jupiter
Communications.

PayPal, which launched its service in October 1999, merged with X.com in
March. Analysts say the combined company dominates the online
person-to-person payment business, boasting nearly four million customers
and 300,000 business accounts.

Each day, PayPal completes about 130,000 transactions and moves about $6
million. PayPal says it is accepted by more than half the auctions on
eBay, compared with only 10% for its closest competitor, Billpoint
(www.billpoint.com), a joint venture between eBay Inc. and Wells Fargo &
Co.

PayPal's registered users can send payments to anyone with an e-mail
address by writing a dollar amount on a form at the company Web
site. When the e-mail is sent, the payment is charged to the sender's
bank or credit-card account. If the receivers aren't registered, they can
fill out a form attached to the e-payment to receive the money, which is
waiting in a PayPal account in the receiver's name.

PayPal has grown rapidly by encouraging users to recommend the service to
friends and families, offering a $5 reward for opening an account or
referring a new customer.

But all that has been costly. "They now need to create a strategy that
walks the tightrope between maintaining the critical mass of customers
and figuring out a way to make money," says Paul Jamieson, a financial
services analyst for e-commerce research firm Gomez Advisors in Lincoln,
Mass.

And some customers already are angry. Peter Resnik, a financial
consultant from Nokomis, Fla., who conducts about 100 auctions a month
for antique paper items on eBay, says he feels duped by advertisements
promoting PayPal as a free service. He contends those advertisements were
aimed at the auction sellers who helped PayPal develop its large customer
base.

"They led you down the path with the impression that this was a free
service and there were no strings attached," Mr. Resnik says.

PayPal first began charging fees when it introduced business accounts in
June, says X.com spokesman Vincent Sollitto. Mr. Sollitto says they
PayPal is implementing the new policy because some people were using the
personal accounts for business purposes to avoid fees.

Mr. Thiel says the new policy will affect only about 250,000 customers,
or 6%, of its customer base of four million. Users were notified about
the policy change last week in an e-mail.

X.com's competitors vary on their policies for credit-card
transactions. Ecount.com (www.ecount.com), PayMe.com (www.payme.com) and
PayPlace.com (www.payplace.com) do not charge for credit-card
transactions.

For transactions of more than $15, Billpoint charges 1.75% plus 35 cents
a transaction for business accounts and 2.5% plus 35 cents a transaction
for personal accounts. EMoneyMail (www.emoneymail.com), a payment service
offered by BankOne Corp., charges customers $1 to send money, but there
is no cost to receive funds.

 


From ncherry at home.net  Wed Oct 11 16:26:40 2000
From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010111703530.14739-100000@smarty.smart.net>
Message-ID: <39E4DB10.CA687949@home.net>

"R. D. Davis" wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 11 Oct 2000, Hans Franke wrote:
> > PLEASE, give me some break - right around eVCF is a bad idea. The time
> > before I may be ocupied by some kind of organisation, while right
> > after I'm occupied by Sallam :)) Serious, I'd realy love to visit
> > VCF East, or Midwest or Whatever. In my opinion mid June may be a
> > reasonable time frame.
> 
> Great, just what we need on the right coast, something else to cause
> more damage to hamfests and deplete them of the few remaining
> "vintage" computers. ...as if e-bilk wasn't bad enough.  Does anyone
> (Tony (DRARD)?)  have an appropritately suitable LART for that idiot
> who wrote the book on computer collecting a few years ago who got all
> these problems started?

Where can I find out more about the Hamfests in my area (NJ, USA)? I
was going to attempt to see if any serious effort was being made to
have a Vintage computer section in the 2001 Trenton Computer Fair. They
attempted it last year but no one except the a few Ham's with Ham
equipment showed up (no computers).

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

From eric at brouhaha.com  Wed Oct 11 16:34:53 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: The Zoran ZR34325 Vector/Signal Processing CPU
In-Reply-To: <00ed01c033c6$4bcc3830$f1ea0191@olf.com> (rmeenaks@olf.com)
References: <00ed01c033c6$4bcc3830$f1ea0191@olf.com>
Message-ID: <20001011213453.8085.qmail@brouhaha.com>

"Ram Meenakshisundaram" <rmeenaks@olf.com> wrote:
> Subject: The Zoran ZR34325 Vector/Signal Processing CPU
> Does anyone have ANYTHING on this processor?  Development tools,
> documentations, datasheets, etc?  It is the coprocessor on the Inmos IMSB420
> Vector Processing TRAM.

Zoran is still around.  Have you asked them?

From rmeenaks at olf.com  Wed Oct 11 16:44:01 2000
From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: The Zoran ZR34325 Vector/Signal Processing CPU
References: <00ed01c033c6$4bcc3830$f1ea0191@olf.com> <20001011213453.8085.qmail@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <39E4DF21.3020109@olf.com>

Yes I asked them.  The are sending me the data book, but they do not 
have any development tools, software, or the processor in their 
archives.  They said it was a very old processor and became obsolete :-( 
   In fact, they only had one data book in the whole firm and it has 
some marginal comments on it...

Thanks for the response,

Ram

Eric Smith wrote:
> 
> "Ram Meenakshisundaram" <rmeenaks@olf.com> wrote:
> > Subject: The Zoran ZR34325 Vector/Signal Processing CPU
> > Does anyone have ANYTHING on this processor?  Development tools,
> > documentations, datasheets, etc?  It is the coprocessor on the Inmos IMSB420
> > Vector Processing TRAM.
> 
> Zoran is still around.  Have you asked them?
> 
> 
> 


From tarsi at binhost.com  Wed Oct 11 16:46:36 2000
From: tarsi at binhost.com (Tarsi)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: Compaq Deskpro 286
In-Reply-To: <20001011210715.EMRC10530.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@pii350>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001011152342.024734f0@binhost.com>
 <cc.b217048.27161bb6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001011164443.0245b720@binhost.com>


> > Looking for information about a Compaq Deskpro 286.  I have two of
> > them.  Would like to know some specs, how to get into the BIOS, etc.
>
>Problem is, compaq just nuked the older than 286 series from their
>older section tech-ref.  This machine is just run of mill 286 and the
>jumper and switch settings are on sticker stuck to top of drive cage
>or under the case cover.   To set it up, you need special bootable
>setup disk.  I can send you a file to help this by email attachment.
>
>I had 286 w/ 2MB all in 256K x 1 DIPs on motherboard itself.  (!!)
>Whole machine is heavy and power supply fan is NOISY.

VERY heavy machine.  Run of the mill, perhaps, but vintage nonetheless and 
a nice addition to my informal collection/museum.  My hardest part right 
now is getting the setup program on a 5.25 disk.  I have some drives around 
but they have issues getting it onto that small of a disk.  <shrug>  Guess 
I'll figure it out at some point.

This one has a lot of cards inside it, looks like a lot of memory cards, 
etc.  Dunno yet.  4MB?  I think.

Thanks,

Tarsi
210


From foo at siconic.com  Wed Oct 11 15:49:44 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010111703530.14739-100000@smarty.smart.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010111339470.2585-100000@siconic.com>

On Wed, 11 Oct 2000, R. D. Davis wrote:

> Great, just what we need on the right coast, something else to cause
> more damage to hamfests and deplete them of the few remaining
> "vintage" computers. ...as if e-bilk wasn't bad enough.  Does anyone
> (Tony (DRARD)?)  have an appropritately suitable LART for that idiot
> who wrote the book on computer collecting a few years ago who got all
> these problems started?  

Is this an act, or are you really such a jack-ass?

What about the VCF makes you think it will "cause damage to hamfests and
deplete them of the few remaining 'vintage' computers"?  The VCF *is* a
place to go find old computers.  Do you actually think people would go to
hamfests and scour them for all the old computer crap they can find just
to bring it to the VCF and hawk it for eBay prices?  You fool!

Are you therefore meaning to imply that the VCF is in fact detrimental to
the hobby of collecting and perserving computers and their history?  You
idiot!

Is there a LART big enough to shut you up once and for all?  I'm looking
for it.

YOU COMPLETE MORON!

Sellam                                International Man of Intrigue and Danger
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...

                       VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
               San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
                    See http://www.vintage.org for details!



From foo at siconic.com  Wed Oct 11 15:54:58 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: [PayPal] PayPal to start charging for what used to be free!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.4.21.0010111407300.20614-100000@NameServer.Culver.Net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010111351100.2585-100000@siconic.com>

On Wed, 11 Oct 2000, Mike Cheponis wrote:

> Well, the Beginning of the End for PayPal, as I see it.  I predicted it.
> It's happening.   Oh well!
> 
> Now can you see why I detest this low-life pond scum operation?  -Mike

Well, it's either don't make any money and fold under, getting rid of the
service altogether, or find some way to make money.  If this means
renegging on a promise and charging people to use their service, business
always wins over integrity.  If this ends up losing them the majority of
their customers and they can't survive, they'll fold anyway.  I guess they
figured they'd better try something rather than just roll over.

Sellam                                International Man of Intrigue and Danger
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...

                       VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
               San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
                    See http://www.vintage.org for details!



From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Wed Oct 11 17:11:53 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: Compaq Deskpro 286
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB1E9@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>

> Looking for information about a Compaq Deskpro 286.  I have two of 
> them.  Would like to know some specs, how to get into the BIOS, etc.

When painted gray (any shade you choose), they make an excellent
anchor for the bass boat, although the bass (and EPA) may disagree...

;-)

-dq

From jpero at sympatico.ca  Wed Oct 11 13:17:12 2000
From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: Compaq Deskpro 286
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001011164443.0245b720@binhost.com>
References: <20001011210715.EMRC10530.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@pii350>
Message-ID: <20001011221757.LUYC18376.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@pii350>

> Date:          Wed, 11 Oct 2000 16:46:36 -0500
> To:            classiccmp@classiccmp.org
> From:          Tarsi <tarsi@binhost.com>
> Subject:       Re: Compaq Deskpro 286
> Reply-to:      classiccmp@classiccmp.org

Hi,

> VERY heavy machine.  Run of the mill, perhaps, but vintage nonetheless and 
> a nice addition to my informal collection/museum.  My hardest part right 
> now is getting the setup program on a 5.25 disk.  I have some drives around 
> but they have issues getting it onto that small of a disk.  <shrug>  Guess 
> I'll figure it out at some point.
> 
> This one has a lot of cards inside it, looks like a lot of memory cards, 
> etc.  Dunno yet.  4MB?  I think.

Count chips in one row (9 or 3), thats one row, then count number of 
rows.  286 uses two rows as one bank due to 16bit data path, compaq 
use 9th chip for parity.   16MB max.  See where 386sx limitations 
come from except the brain-dead part which 286 got?

Each bank can either have 64K (128K per bank) or 256K (512K per 
bank) , rarely can have 1MB chips (2MB per bank) but I don't think 
compaq 286 deskpro supports 1MB chips.

That one I had has 72 x 256K x 1bit DIPs,  taking up nearly 2/3 of 
the whole motherboard to bring up 2MB.  Use 1.44MB generic FD on it.  
No problems and easier this way to get setup program to boot.

Yeah, Very aucient and good idea of what things were like back then 
before all the mostly cheap clones few decent clones stuffed into 
either crappy flimsy finger cutting cases, some decent cases flooded 
the market.

That little round 3 pin socket on back  is 12V power for mono TTL 
monitor.

> 
> Thanks,

Welcome!

Cheers,

Wizard
 

From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Wed Oct 11 17:49:04 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: Another PDP-11 available: Wisconsin
Message-ID: <005c01c033d5$93eb35d0$dd0b9a8d@ajp166>


>it would work - in hindsight, I don't know why since I never
>had any intention of getting by with just RT11FB in RT-11.
>Actually, I have both versions - dual and quad.


Same here with matching memory and IO.  I can do everything 
11/03 to first 11/73 and most version inbetween and a fair number 
of backkplanes for them including the heath H11.

I happen to like RT11FB alot.

>I do, just my own opinion - which I believe I stated at the beginning.
>The key point is that when testing software, the emulator is so
>much faster that it runs rings around the real hardware.  PLUS -


It can but...  Try doing a hardware hack using a DRV11 card with
a static ram hooked to it as a ram disk.  You can emulate up to 
a point and then it stops.

>and this is a VERY  BIG  PLUS - I had occasion to attempt
>to debug (or at least understand) the boot code for a stand alone
>program.  Try stepping through the boot block of an RX02 on
>a real PDP-11.  With the emulator and even rudimentary

I've done it,  ODT.  Emulators help some here, then again if the 
boot block is on a real RX02 (in DD mode) or an RL02.  Your 
cooked again and must have real hardware.

>In fact, I very much admire someone who can rescue an 11/44
>from the scrap heap.  But I do not know how and I am too busy
>in any case.  And my back is no longer strong enough.


Me too.  I stick to the Qbus as they are quiet, small and low 
power. 

However to make a point... there is nothing like seeing and hearing
Unix V7 booting on a real RL02.  It's satisfying as I've preserved 
hardware and demonstrated software that was "of the time" and still
useful.

Allison



From stewart_kevin at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 11 18:00:05 2000
From: stewart_kevin at hotmail.com (Kevin Stewart)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: OFF-TOPIC Re: Re[4]: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....
References: <l03102802b603cffdb298@[129.162.151.33]>
Message-ID: <OE29BED0kpB9pbKWZfE00000226@hotmail.com>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Tapley" <mtapley@swri.edu>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2000 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC Re: Re[4]: You might be a VMS Bigot if.....


> (I will admit the caveat that a fear of using "vulgar" language, in the
> *very rare* situations where it really is appropriate, is also not
> necessarily healthy.)

The most "appropriate" situation I can think of was when I was building sets
for my high school's drama department with a friend of mine. We were
building an extention of the stage to go from the corner to a doorway
(built-in to the wall) about 4 feet off the ground... the supports for it
weren't there yet - we had to attach the platform to the stage first. My
friend and I were laying on the floor, using our feet to keep the platform
above us. When the person helping us hold up the platform shoved it over to
the appropriate place, I was to take all the weight of the platform while my
friend nailed it to death with the nailgun. The person helping to hold it
would then (very quickly) crawl under it and hold it up while I screwed the
other side in place. Well, when we counted to three, the person let go, I
took all the weight and my friend started nailing (keep in mind that this is
about a 300 lb platform -- it was quite large and we shouldn't have been
doing it the way we were ;) ) and the person meant to come help me didn't...
he jumped up on the stage and ran across it, obviously on some other
importand business. My friend realized what was happening, dropped the
nailgun and helped me with the weight while we screamed for the third person
to come back and do what he was supposed to... he came back, *walking*, and
*walked on top of the platform we were supporting*... he was a largeish
person, about 225-250lbs. My back hasn't been the same since.


> - Mark
>
>
>
Kevin

From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Wed Oct 11 17:53:31 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:51 2005
Subject: Another PDP-11 available: Wisconsin
Message-ID: <007b01c033d6$fe6fc690$dd0b9a8d@ajp166>


From: Geoffrey G. Rochat <geoff@pkworks.com>


>If you want to lose one of those 11/2s, please get in touch!


Is that for me or Jerome?

If I have a spare I can arrage to give one away.  I'd have to check
as Qbus stuff I like to keep spares of.

Allison


From ip500 at home.com  Wed Oct 11 18:03:55 2000
From: ip500 at home.com (ip500)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010111703530.14739-100000@smarty.smart.net> <39E4DB10.CA687949@home.net>
Message-ID: <39E4F1DB.9123516C@home.com>

	Hamfest & Convention Database of the ARRL: everything! you ever wanted
to know about hamfests.
	http://www.arrl.org/hamfests.html

Neil Cherry wrote:
> 
> "R. D. Davis" wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 11 Oct 2000, Hans Franke wrote:
> > > PLEASE, give me some break - right around eVCF is a bad idea. The time
> > > before I may be ocupied by some kind of organisation, while right
> > > after I'm occupied by Sallam :)) Serious, I'd realy love to visit
> > > VCF East, or Midwest or Whatever. In my opinion mid June may be a
> > > reasonable time frame.
> >
> > Great, just what we need on the right coast, something else to cause
> > more damage to hamfests and deplete them of the few remaining
> > "vintage" computers. ...as if e-bilk wasn't bad enough.  Does anyone
> > (Tony (DRARD)?)  have an appropritately suitable LART for that idiot
> > who wrote the book on computer collecting a few years ago who got all
> > these problems started?
> 
> Where can I find out more about the Hamfests in my area (NJ, USA)? I
> was going to attempt to see if any serious effort was being made to
> have a Vintage computer section in the 2001 Trenton Computer Fair. They
> attempted it last year but no one except the a few Ham's with Ham
> equipment showed up (no computers).
> 
> --
> Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
> http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
> http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
> http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/                         (SourceForge)

From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Wed Oct 11 18:11:57 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: 48v dc power
Message-ID: <00a601c033d9$d2120510$dd0b9a8d@ajp166>

From: Daniel T. Burrows <dburrows@netpath.net>


>Also some of the 12v UPS's will not start from just battery.  They have
to
>"fail over to battery"  I do have a 1KVA Triplite that is 12V and does
start
>from just battery.  So keep your eyes open for those.



>>"Shawn T. Rutledge" wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 05:25:23AM -0800, Mike Ford wrote:
>>> > I have some 48-57 vdc input, otherwise PC normal output power
supplies
>for
>>> > about $5 each. Ask now if anybody wants some, basically I "think"
new
>units


This is something I'd like to get a few of.  I have one CP/M system I've
built that runs from battery/solar but I'd like to find some power
supplies
for 12v to +5/+12/-12 for more hacking.

Allison


From stewart_kevin at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 11 18:36:23 2000
From: stewart_kevin at hotmail.com (Kevin Stewart)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: Moving a Microvax II
References: <Pine.SV4.3.96.001010104906.16782A-100000@lerami.lerctr.org>
Message-ID: <OE42jcMzfoV1qdiixjn000007e7@hotmail.com>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)" <transit@lerctr.org>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 11:50 AM
Subject: Re: Moving a Microvax II


>
>
> On Tue, 10 Oct 2000, FBA wrote:
>
> > Speaking of ebay: here is a $700 commodore 64 with the reserve not met
> > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=454431985
>
> Yeah, that'll sell real quick. Why they won't even notice all the C64's
> on there going for $10 and $12...with software even!
>
> Oh well, everyone's gotta learn sometime...
>
>
A friend of mine was checking out the local thrift/used item (not
non-profit) shops one afternoon... there was a poster in the window that
said "64 Computer - $2000." He went to the back where it was... A C64, no
monitor, no disk, no tape, no PSU. They were serious. He and his girlfriend
laughed at the people and left.

Just like the guy I saw at a hamfest that wanted $200 for a Packard Bell
386. (Next to the guy that was selling the Toshiba 386 laptop with docking
station for $25 - I talked him down to $20)

Kevin

From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org  Wed Oct 11 19:22:37 2000
From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
In-Reply-To: <39E4DB10.CA687949@home.net> from Neil Cherry at "Oct 11, 2000 05:26:40
 pm"
Message-ID: <200010120022.e9C0Mce01251@bg-tc-ppp793.monmouth.com>

> Where can I find out more about the Hamfests in my area (NJ, USA)? I
> was going to attempt to see if any serious effort was being made to
> have a Vintage computer section in the 2001 Trenton Computer Fair. They
> attempted it last year but no one except the a few Ham's with Ham
> equipment showed up (no computers).
> 
> -- 
> Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
> http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
> http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
> http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)
> 
> 

Trenton's pretty much gone the way of the Ken Gordon show.
(FYI -- Ken Gordon's the promoter that saw the Trenton show in the late
'70's or early 80's and decided there was money to be made in commercial
computer shows...)

I avoid Ken Gordon shows like the plague.  They're packed wall to wall
with bodies and tables with absolutely nowhere to move and they don't 
really have vendors with any tech info or historic interest on
the surplus stuff.


Bill

-- 
bpechter@monmouth.com      |     Microsoft: Where do you want to go today?
                           |     Linux:     Where do you want to go tomorrow?
                           |     BSD:       Are you guys coming, or what?

From jhfine at idirect.com  Wed Oct 11 19:29:19 2000
From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: Another PDP-11 available: Wisconsin
References: <005c01c033d5$93eb35d0$dd0b9a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <39E505DF.382B441@idirect.com>

>ajp166 wrote:

> It can but...  Try doing a hardware hack using a DRV11 card with
> a static ram hooked to it as a ram disk.  You can emulate up to
> a point and then it stops.

Jerome Fine replies:

I agree that if the emulator does not handle all hardware interfaces -
and none do all - then what you refer to can't be done.  But since
the emulator allows a RAM: disk of any size (I have used up to
64 MBytes on a 96 MByte system), I don't need the limited
"ram disk" you use on the real PDP-11 hardware.  Again, I am not
knocking the real PDP-11 hardware for those who feel that way,
I just don't find it very exiting running real PDP-11 hardware as
opposed to using the emulator when it is appropriate.

Now when I can't run the emulator on a newer PC any more and the real
PDP-11 hardware is still working and the old PC is broken, then back
to the tried and true.  It will be a race between 3 things:

(a) The real PDP-11 hardware broken

(b) The emulator not able to run on a new PC OS and the old PC broken

(c) Me broken (dead!)

I figure the race to last between 10 and 40 years.  Right now I am 62 years
old and have been using the PDP-11 for over 25 years.  My minimum goal
is at least 50 years!!  I would like to last until January 1st, 2036 when the
DATE value in RT-11 first becomes negative.  Talk about long range goals
when this list is supposed to look back only 10 years.

> >and this is a VERY  BIG  PLUS - I had occasion to attempt
> >to debug (or at least understand) the boot code for a stand alone
> >program.  Try stepping through the boot block of an RX02 on
> >a real PDP-11.  With the emulator and even rudimentary
> I've done it,  ODT.  Emulators help some here, then again if the
> boot block is on a real RX02 (in DD mode) or an RL02.  Your
> cooked again and must have real hardware.

Yes, I could have gone to the trouble of putting ODT into memory along
with the boot ROM code for that DD RX02 on the real PDP-11, but
it was much easier to copy the RX02 image to an RX50, then copy
the RX50 image from the HD floppy drive to a container file on the
Pentium which was then MOUNTed as an RX02 image.  The emulator
allowed me to stop after the code at boot block zero was loaded and
then step through the code.  Interestingly enough, the stand alone program
contained a copy of software ODT which I then used to continue the
debugging (after it was loaded by the boot program in block zero).
Since the emulator was able to emulate a real RX02 drive in double
density mode (pretend the container file of 988 blocks was an RX02
image on an 8" RX02 DD compatible floppy), there was no problem
at all with the emulator.  And it was all quite legal since no operating
system was involved (although the RX02 image had been prepared
under RSX-11 for which I don't have a license).

The real trouble is that I think you are correct for being very inclined
to be real PDP-11 hardware oriented.  But do you feel it is OK for
me to be very inclined toward software?  If your answer is YES!,
then we both agree completely.  BUT, I will still continue to agree
that real PDP-11 hardware is great for those who are inclined that
way!!

Sincerely yours,

Jerome Fine


From rdd at smart.net  Wed Oct 11 19:32:51 2000
From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: Vintage computers and hypnotic induction, etc. (was: OFF-TOPIC...)
In-Reply-To: <OE29BED0kpB9pbKWZfE00000226@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010112003520.11261-100000@smarty.smart.net>

On Wed, 11 Oct 2000, Kevin Stewart made the following excuse for 
foul language:
> The most "appropriate" situation I can think of was when I was building sets
> for my high school's drama department with a friend of mine. We were
[...]
> other side in place. Well, when we counted to three, the person let go, I
> took all the weight and my friend started nailing (keep in mind that this is
> about a 300 lb platform -- it was quite large and we shouldn't have been
[...]
> to come back and do what he was supposed to... he came back, *walking*, and
> *walked on top of the platform we were supporting*... he was a largeish
> person, about 225-250lbs. My back hasn't been the same since.

Ouch!  Sorry to hear that happened to you, it must not have been much
fun.  :-( Still doesn't seem like an excuse for foul language,
however.  For some reason, it seems that some people apparently just
can't handle a little pain without uttering a string of profanity.
Let's see, aside from the fun of some things in a hospital a few years
back, which included a chest tube and having all sorts of holes poked
in me, not to mention, in the past year or so being bitten, kicked and
having my feet steped on my a horse, and being tossed into a fence, I
didn't curse, swear, get angry, have a temper-tantrum or go berzerk.

On the other hand, I do agree partially with something that someone
said about it being healthier to let out a holler (doesn't have to be
gutteral language, however).  Let out a blood curdling howl if you
must, it really is healthy, and there is evidence to support the fact
that it does help to decrease pain, and hence stress... but then, so
does hypnotism (including self-hypnois) and going into a meditative
trance.   Ok, who's going to volunteer to try a blood-curdling howl
when they visit their dentist?  

...and what piece of vintage computer equipment can you take along
running some sort of software that can help a beginner go into a
trance state?  I recall seeing some software a while back that used a
monochrome text-only display to help induce a hypnotic state.  Is
anyone else here familiar with this?

Hmmm... I guess that PERQ T2s carted around in the specially-designed
"Anvil" style travel cases qualify as portable PCs, and would be good
for such, even if they do have high-res. graphics. :-)

--
Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of
All Rights Reserved            Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to
rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd   a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD 





From jhfine at idirect.com  Wed Oct 11 19:33:25 2000
From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: Free 11/02 (Was: Another PDP-11 available: Wisconsin)
References: <002001c033c1$ba1029a0$a3a37ed8@xyz.wmsnet.com>
Message-ID: <39E506D5.FF9E5D45@idirect.com>

>Geoffrey G. Rochat wrote:

> If you want to lose one of those 11/2s, please get in touch!

>Tarsi wrote:

> I'm sure I could find room for one as well. :)

Jerome Fine replies:

Well, my wife is recovering from a knee replacement right now, so
I am the current house spouse.  That means no shipping, just local
pick-up in Toronto.  I you want my phone number, just ask and
we can arrange for a time for you to come and get one.

But you also have to take an empty RL02 cabinet. :)

If anyone responds, I will be surprised - last time I tried to
unload an 11/34 backplane and power supply, it took over
a year.  It was the only Unibus stuff I had and there was no way
I could use it.  But it would have been sad to see it be just tossed.

Sincerely yours,

Jerome Fine


From stewart_kevin at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 11 20:17:39 2000
From: stewart_kevin at hotmail.com (Kevin Stewart)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: Vintage computers and hypnotic induction, etc. (was: OFF-TOPIC...)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010112003520.11261-100000@smarty.smart.net>
Message-ID: <OE13N87onq6aeX9Q0zn000008b7@hotmail.com>


----- Original Message -----
From: "R. D. Davis" <rdd@smart.net>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 8:32 PM
Subject: Vintage computers and hypnotic induction, etc. (was: OFF-TOPIC...)


> Ouch!  Sorry to hear that happened to you, it must not have been much
> fun.  :-( Still doesn't seem like an excuse for foul language,
> however.

The foul language wasn't for the pain (well, partly it was). It was mostly
to get the attention of the brain-dead kid that walked over the platform in
his own little world.

> On the other hand, I do agree partially with something that someone
> said about it being healthier to let out a holler (doesn't have to be
> gutteral language, however).  Let out a blood curdling howl if you
> must, it really is healthy, and there is evidence to support the fact
> that it does help to decrease pain, and hence stress...

Oh, I agree... I scream all the time ;) Not at people, just general
stress-reducing screams...

>but then, so
> does hypnotism (including self-hypnois) and going into a meditative
> trance.

I do that too... see www.sahajayoga.org <- the method that I use.

> ...and what piece of vintage computer equipment can you take along
> running some sort of software that can help a beginner go into a
> trance state?

Check out that website that I mentioned. There's an audio file with
instructions. .RA, but oh well.

Kevin

From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au  Wed Oct 11 20:20:51 2000
From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: OT collecting old pinballs
References: <200010111202.KAA08902@ccii.co.za>
Message-ID: <001a01c033ea$a972a2c0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Wouter de Waal" <wrm@ccii.co.za>
To: <rdd@smart.net>; <classiccmp-digest@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 9:32 PM
Subject: Re: OT collecting old pinballs

<snip>

> Our newest Land-Rover is a
> 1965, my one is a '59, my wife drives a '55

Just acquired a couple of rovers for our RAAF cadet unit to restore.  59
Series 2 and a 63? Series 2a.
The Series 2 turned out to be ex-army.  Possibly one that came home from
Vietnam.  (They had 2's & 2a's there in the 60's)

> Restoring? Both Land-Rovers and pinball machines (OK?) can be rebuilt
> from the ground up.

Can't speak for pinballs, but you're probably right.  Rovers, sure, just
a box on wheels with
stuff bolted to it.  Meccano set.

Cheers

Geoff Roberts
Computer Systems Manager
Saint Mark's College
Port Pirie,
South Australia
geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au
netcafe@tell.net.au
ICQ: 1970476


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Wed Oct 11 21:02:08 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: Another PDP-11 available: Wisconsin
Message-ID: <00eb01c033f1$06342730$dd0b9a8d@ajp166>

From: Jerome Fine <jhfine@idirect.com>

>The real trouble is that I think you are correct for being very inclined
>to be real PDP-11 hardware oriented.  But do you feel it is OK for
>me to be very inclined toward software?  If your answer is YES!,
>then we both agree completely.  BUT, I will still continue to agree
>that real PDP-11 hardware is great for those who are inclined that
>way!!



Short and to the point I don't consider PDP-11 to be "very hardware".
S100 and autoconstructed are "hardware" to me.  On the otherhand
Nothing wrong with being software oriented.  I happen to do that
with only one difference, I use native hardware.

Allison


From geoff at pkworks.com  Wed Oct 11 22:17:56 2000
From: geoff at pkworks.com (Geoffrey G. Rochat)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
Message-ID: <003b01c033fb$04f2c200$4aa07ed8@xyz.wmsnet.com>

One place to look for hamfest and fleamarket information is in Nuts &
Volts magazine.  Another is to contact Steve Finberg, the MIT Fleamarket
Mavin.  Does anyone have his e-mail address?

-----Original Message-----
From: Neil Cherry <ncherry@home.net>
To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Date: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)


>"R. D. Davis" wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 11 Oct 2000, Hans Franke wrote:
>> > PLEASE, give me some break - right around eVCF is a bad idea. The
time
>> > before I may be ocupied by some kind of organisation, while right
>> > after I'm occupied by Sallam :)) Serious, I'd realy love to visit
>> > VCF East, or Midwest or Whatever. In my opinion mid June may be a
>> > reasonable time frame.
>>
>> Great, just what we need on the right coast, something else to cause
>> more damage to hamfests and deplete them of the few remaining
>> "vintage" computers. ...as if e-bilk wasn't bad enough.  Does anyone
>> (Tony (DRARD)?)  have an appropritately suitable LART for that idiot
>> who wrote the book on computer collecting a few years ago who got all
>> these problems started?
>
>Where can I find out more about the Hamfests in my area (NJ, USA)? I
>was going to attempt to see if any serious effort was being made to
>have a Vintage computer section in the 2001 Trenton Computer Fair. They
>attempted it last year but no one except the a few Ham's with Ham
>equipment showed up (no computers).
>
>--
>Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry
ncherry@home.net
>http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
>http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
>http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge)


From geoff at pkworks.com  Wed Oct 11 22:26:53 2000
From: geoff at pkworks.com (Geoffrey G. Rochat)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: Free 11/02 (Was: Another PDP-11 available: Wisconsin)
Message-ID: <009b01c033fc$4521ebc0$4aa07ed8@xyz.wmsnet.com>

Well, surprise, surprise, I'm responding.  The problem with a "free"
offer is that there's always a catch.  Which is, no way I can take time
off to get to Toronto for a pickup.  Sigh.  But it is a realizable
fantasy...  Do keep me  in mind should you absolutely have to trash the
box someday.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jerome Fine <jhfine@idirect.com>
To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>; Geoffrey G.
Rochat <geoff@pkworks.com>; Tarsi <tarsi@binhost.com>
Date: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 9:13 PM
Subject: Re: Free 11/02 (Was: Another PDP-11 available: Wisconsin)


>>Geoffrey G. Rochat wrote:
>
>> If you want to lose one of those 11/2s, please get in touch!
>
>>Tarsi wrote:
>
>> I'm sure I could find room for one as well. :)
>
>Jerome Fine replies:
>
>Well, my wife is recovering from a knee replacement right now, so
>I am the current house spouse.  That means no shipping, just local
>pick-up in Toronto.  I you want my phone number, just ask and
>we can arrange for a time for you to come and get one.
>
>But you also have to take an empty RL02 cabinet. :)
>
>If anyone responds, I will be surprised - last time I tried to
>unload an 11/34 backplane and power supply, it took over
>a year.  It was the only Unibus stuff I had and there was no way
>I could use it.  But it would have been sad to see it be just tossed.
>
>Sincerely yours,
>
>Jerome Fine


From mac at Wireless.Com  Wed Oct 11 23:05:36 2000
From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: Fleamarkets (was Re: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0))
In-Reply-To: <003b01c033fb$04f2c200$4aa07ed8@xyz.wmsnet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.4.21.0010112104460.20614-100000@NameServer.Culver.Net>

On Wed, 11 Oct 2000, Geoffrey G. Rochat wrote:

> One place to look for hamfest and fleamarket information is in Nuts &
> Volts magazine.  Another is to contact Steve Finberg, the MIT Fleamarket
> Mavin.  Does anyone have his e-mail address?

w1gsl@mit.edu


-Mike


From rdd at smart.net  Wed Oct 11 23:23:47 2000
From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010111339470.2585-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010112332260.5872-100000@smarty.smart.net>


On Wed, 11 Oct 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote:
> Is this an act, or are you really such a jack-ass?

Having once met a donkey, I can say that I found it to be a much more
affable, and well mannered, creature than you appear to be; hence, I
don't take that as an insult as you apparently intended it to be.  To
answer your question, however, I don't have four feet, have no long
ears, and no tail, so, it's not at all difficult to deduce that the
answer to your question is no.  

> What about the VCF makes you think it will "cause damage to hamfests and
> deplete them of the few remaining 'vintage' computers"?  The VCF *is* a
> place to go find old computers.  Do you actually think people would go to
> hamfests and scour them for all the old computer crap they can find just
> to bring it to the VCF and hawk it for eBay prices?  You fool!

The VCF is also a place to draw the attention of non-hackers to
computer collecting; while the prices of older equipment at VCF may
not be terribly high, in terms of e-bay pricing or affordability for
most of us here, I recon that they're still far higher than they were
at hamfests several years ago.

> Are you therefore meaning to imply that the VCF is in fact detrimental to
> the hobby of collecting and perserving computers and their history?  You
> idiot!

No, I neither said nor implied that.  Now, who is the idiot?  Perhaps
you'll learn to wait for answers before jumping to conclusions.  Yes
Sellam, evolution is possible for all creatures, even you. :-) What I
was implying is that it's harmful for those of us who like to collect
and hack interesting finds that we pick up for a few dollars -
treasures that were someone else's trash, you might say.  In years
past, before computer, and other vintage electronics, collecting
became fashionable, some of us were able to spend less than US$100 and
fill up a large station wagon with all sorts of computers, plus a few
bits of Heathkit equipment, various electronic components, some audio
stuff with tubes (valves), and then come home to find lots more
interesing old computer finds lurking for-sale on Usenet, often for
the cost of shipping.

We didn't collect just for the sake of collecting or squirreling away
equipment, for future profit, to complete a "collection," etc.  We
collected to have more fun toys to take apart, examine, repair,
restore and hack.  

I sense that this group is composed of two different groups of people,
who still have something in common - a desire to obtain and preserve
older equipment.  We just have differnt ideas as to how we go about
it, the "serious collectors" and shelf-liners who are more interested
in history and unmodified equipment verses the hackers who preserve
equipment through curiosity, tinkering and reverse engineering and are
responsible for the actual preservation of working systems.  The
former go around thinking "what's it worth" the later "neat, a new toy
to hack!"  I could expand upon this further, but I haven't the time
tonight, alas.

Perhaps we can have a discussion here about this without it turning
into a flamefest.

> Is there a LART big enough to shut you up once and for all?  I'm looking
> for it.

Good luck!  By the way Sellam, something tells me that you're having a
truly interesting month, one that will grow all the more "interesting"
experiences as it progresses, that you may even learn something from
by a strange twist of karma.  Having fun yet?

> YOU COMPLETE MORON!

Oh stop looking into the mirror and muttering your thoughts to this
group as you do so, before you risk further embarassment. ;-)  

All that said, I think that there's still probably much more that we
agree about regarding older computers than we disagree about, and,
while I don't like some things about VCF, I think that in some ways
it's been quite beneficial to computer preservation, particularly from
a historical perspective, as it helps to draw people together with a
common interest who can share their knowledge of various machines, so,
you see that I have mixed feelings about VCF, not all good, not all bad.

I see and understand your perspective; can you see and understand
mine?

Have a good night, and, I do wish you good luck with collecting and
preserving, and with having fun with these activities.   

--
Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of
All Rights Reserved            Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to
rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd   a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD 





From jhfine at idirect.com  Wed Oct 11 23:27:31 2000
From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: Free 11/02 (Was: Another PDP-11 available: Wisconsin)
References: <009b01c033fc$4521ebc0$4aa07ed8@xyz.wmsnet.com>
Message-ID: <39E53DB3.B08AE474@idirect.com>

>Geoffrey G. Rochat wrote:

> Well, surprise, surprise, I'm responding.  The problem with a "free"
> offer is that there's always a catch.  Which is, no way I can take time
> off to get to Toronto for a pickup.  Sigh.  But it is a realizable
> fantasy...  Do keep me  in mind should you absolutely have to trash the
> box someday.

Jerome Fine replies:

Actually, it is not a box, right now just a board.  But if I look and dig
long enough, I may be able to put together a full system.  But that would
be so heavy and cost so much in handling costs, let alone shipping,
that I doubt anyone would be interested - except for local pick-up.

Which city are you in (near)?  Someone in Ottawa is only 3 hours away
(well 5 hours if they stop for gas and obey the speed limits) is also
interested.

However, since you replied so politely, please e-mail me every 6 months
or so and I will keep you in mind.  Maybe we will be able to arrange
something.

Sincerely yours,

Jerome Fine


From foo at siconic.com  Wed Oct 11 23:05:11 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010112332260.5872-100000@smarty.smart.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010112041080.3140-100000@siconic.com>

On Thu, 12 Oct 2000, R. D. Davis wrote:

> Having once met a donkey, I can say that I found it to be a much more
> affable, and well mannered, creature than you appear to be; hence, I
> don't take that as an insult as you apparently intended it to be.  To
> answer your question, however, I don't have four feet, have no long
> ears, and no tail, so, it's not at all difficult to deduce that the
> answer to your question is no.  

Then you must certainly be an asshole, because I've met plenty of them,
and you fit the mold quite aptly.

> The VCF is also a place to draw the attention of non-hackers to
> computer collecting;

And this is a bad thing because.......?

> while the prices of older equipment at VCF may
> not be terribly high, in terms of e-bay pricing or affordability for
> most of us here, I recon that they're still far higher than they were
> at hamfests several years ago.

And you're obviously drawing this assumption on good information?  Oh,
you're pulling it out of your ass?  Sorry, the basis by which you are
drawing your assertions is generally consider to be without any merit
whatsoever.

> treasures that were someone else's trash, you might say.  In years
> past, before computer, and other vintage electronics, collecting
> became fashionable, some of us were able to spend less than US$100 and
> fill up a large station wagon with all sorts of computers, plus a few
> bits of Heathkit equipment, various electronic components, some audio
> stuff with tubes (valves), and then come home to find lots more
> interesing old computer finds lurking for-sale on Usenet, often for
> the cost of shipping.

And this is no longer possible because of the VCF?  And of course you've
attended all five Vintage Computer Festival events, and you obviously know
from personal observation that the VCF is responsible for your perceived
decline in the ability to obtain vintage computer hardware at what you
would consider to be reasonable prices?

Excuse me, but if ever there was a moment when "foul" language was
acceptable, it has to be at this moment when I tell you that you are a
fucking moron.

> We didn't collect just for the sake of collecting or squirreling away
> equipment, for future profit, to complete a "collection," etc.  We
> collected to have more fun toys to take apart, examine, repair,
> restore and hack.  

What in the VCF charter leads you to believe that it promotes the
"squirreling away" of computers for "future profit"?  Where on the VCF
website did you read this?

> I sense that this group is composed of two different groups of people,
> who still have something in common - a desire to obtain and preserve
> older equipment.  We just have differnt ideas as to how we go about
> it, the "serious collectors" and shelf-liners who are more interested
> in history and unmodified equipment verses the hackers who preserve
> equipment through curiosity, tinkering and reverse engineering and are
> responsible for the actual preservation of working systems.  The
> former go around thinking "what's it worth" the later "neat, a new toy
> to hack!"  I could expand upon this further, but I haven't the time
> tonight, alas.

No, you obviously have plenty of time, since you manage to contribute your
obnoxious blather at a rather depressing rate.  What you don't have is: a)
an argument, b) a clue, and c) any perceivable social graces.

> Perhaps we can have a discussion here about this without it turning
> into a flamefest.

That would only be possible if you would refrain from contributing to such
a discussion.

> All that said, I think that there's still probably much more that we
> agree about regarding older computers than we disagree about, and,

No, I think I pretty much disagree with everything you utter.  I would not
ever want to be associated with you in any way whatsoever.

> while I don't like some things about VCF, I think that in some ways
> it's been quite beneficial to computer preservation, particularly from

Oh, do you think?

> a historical perspective, as it helps to draw people together with a
> common interest who can share their knowledge of various machines, so,
> you see that I have mixed feelings about VCF, not all good, not all bad.

What you are interpreting as "mixed feelings" are in fact the multitude of
voices in your head that compel you to spew such annoying blather in such
a compellingly depressing manner.

> I see and understand your perspective; can you see and understand
> mine?

I don't think that's possible.

Mr. Davis, I mean it with the utmost of compassion when I say to you, shut
the fuck up.  You are an ass.

Sellam                                International Man of Intrigue and Danger
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...

                       VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
               San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
                    See http://www.vintage.org for details!



From jpl15 at panix.com  Thu Oct 12 00:46:01 2000
From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: Entertainment Value
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0010120129170.29528-100000@panix2.panix.com>



      Yet-to-be-plundered Jerry Springer Topics:

  Upright Vintage Computer Collector is secretly an E-Bay Slut and once
sold a Royal McBee to the highest bidder: a scrapper from Taiwan.
  

  London-based Enthusiast and Under-Employed Physicist admits to
converting all his Classics to 110 VAC 60Htz and using a hidden rotary
inverter in his basement. Discovered after neighbors complained to police
about the incessant humming, and late night cries of "It Lives!!! It
Lives!!!"


  Ex VCF Promoter and Producer gives up profitable consulting business,
salty wit and caustic repartee, to take up new carreer as a Sunday School
Teacher and Spiritual Counsellor in the Great Midwest.


  You *GO*, girlfr'en!



--------------------------------------------------------------------

  Cheers

John



From doug at blinkenlights.com  Thu Oct 12 03:46:41 2000
From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: early non-US personal computers
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0010120129170.29528-100000@panix2.panix.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010120424330.10401-100000@planetdoug.com>

Hey unamericans, any candidates for personal computers made outside of the
US before 1976 (other than Micral)?

Define "personal computer" any way you like to as long as you define it
this way: digital, (semi)automatic, programmable, accessible/available,
small, inexpensive, and simpler than an F-14 fighter jet :-)  Turing
completeness helps, but I'm flexible.

I'm looking for foreign brothers of machines like the Altair
(microprocessor), Kenbak-1 (discrete logic), Minivac (clocked relays),
GENIAC (rotary switches), etc.  I'm also looking for pointers to old (say,
1940-1970) electronic hobbyist mags outside of the US.

Thanks,
Doug


From hansp at digiweb.com  Thu Oct 12 05:14:59 2000
From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: early non-US personal computers
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010120424330.10401-100000@planetdoug.com>
Message-ID: <39E58F23.F0510938@digiweb.com>

Doug Salot wrote:
 
> I'm looking for foreign brothers of machines like the Altair
> (microprocessor), Kenbak-1 (discrete logic), Minivac (clocked relays),
> GENIAC (rotary switches), etc.  I'm also looking for pointers to old (say,
> 1940-1970) electronic hobbyist mags outside of the US.

On the last point (and related to the first) Wireless World is a British
magazine published since 1910. I have bound volume 73 January 1967 to
February 1968 which states "Fifty-seventh year of publication". It still
survives as "Electronics World" which seems to be available in the US.

This particular volume is of interest to me because of the series of
articles starting in the August 1967 issue describing the "Wireless
World Digital Computer".

Implemented in transistors the "computer" was and 8-bit word serial
machine with 3 
"memory" locations. No programming as such, you set up an instruction on
a set of switches.

A team of students two years older than I built this at the school I
attended and I had the pleasure of looking after for a year or two.

We did some work on setting up a sequencing system to run programs via
strwoger switches but never really got anytthing to work reliably.

Two other magazines published in the UK were Practical Wireless and
Practical Electronics.

Happy memories....

  -- Hans B Pufal
 
> 
> Thanks,
> Doug

From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Thu Oct 12 07:16:11 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: [PayPal] PayPal to start charging for what used to be free!
In-Reply-To: 
 <Pine.BSI.4.21.0010111407300.20614-100000@NameServer.Culver.Net>
Message-ID: <l03102804b60b5b65e194@[192.168.1.4]>

I don't have a really big problem with it, but that doesn't mean I might
not shift my auctions away from PayPal once I get close to the $500
ceiling. I like using PayPal for all the small transactions where a money
order and a stamp are way more than 1.9%.



From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk  Thu Oct 12 06:57:45 2000
From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: early non-US personal computers
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010120424330.10401-100000@planetdoug.com>
Message-ID: <SIMEON.10010121245.D@notmac.uwe.ac.uk>


On Thu, 12 Oct 2000 04:46:41 -0400 (EDT) Doug Salot 
<doug@blinkenlights.com> wrote:
> I'm looking for foreign brothers of machines like the Altair
> (microprocessor), Kenbak-1 (discrete logic), Minivac (clocked relays),
> GENIAC (rotary switches), etc.  I'm also looking for pointers to old (say,
> 1940-1970) electronic hobbyist mags outside of the US.

Early UK machines:

Science of Cambridge MK14 (SC/MP CPU)
Acorn System One (6502 CPU)
Tangerine MicroTan (6502 CPU)
Nascom-1 (Z80 or 8080 I think)

UK Magazines (and published constructional projects):

Practical Wireless
Practical Electronics (UK101 with 6502 CPU in 1979)
Everyday Electronics
Electronics Today International (6800 machine in 1977)
Hobby Electronics
Wireless World
Elektor (Junior Computer, SC/MP I think)
Personal Computer World (Early issues included electronics)

--
John Honniball
Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk
University of the West of England


From ip500 at home.com  Thu Oct 12 07:48:51 2000
From: ip500 at home.com (ip500)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: Intel 310   286 box
Message-ID: <39E5B333.8020981C@home.com>

	Is any one privy to the workings of an the Intel 310? The one I have is
missing a monitor and keyboard and hookup is not immediatly obvious to
me. Also has labeled ports on the back for ethernet, console,
cube. I'm assuming it was the control box for my newly acquired iPSC/1
system. This one is a model "PSYP310", 286/12 8 mhz, 1 meg mem, 140 mb,
45 mb streaming tape & a floppy drive.
	Any info appreciated...manual or copy greatly! appreciated....
Craig

From tarsi at binhost.com  Thu Oct 12 08:46:05 2000
From: tarsi at binhost.com (Tarsi)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: Compaq Deskpro 286
In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB1E9@tegntserver.tegjeff
 .com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001012084456.0246eeb0@binhost.com>

At 06:11 PM 10/11/00 -0400, you wrote:
> > Looking for information about a Compaq Deskpro 286.  I have two of
> > them.  Would like to know some specs, how to get into the BIOS, etc.
>
>When painted gray (any shade you choose), they make an excellent
>anchor for the bass boat, although the bass (and EPA) may disagree...

I'm surprised I didn't get a hernia carrying that thing home from Goodwill. 
Although you just HAVE to love the rubber-mounted harddrive chassis to 
reduce vibrations.  That's classic.

:)
Tarsi
210


From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Thu Oct 12 08:25:28 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: Compaq Deskpro 286
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001011152342.024734f0@binhost.com>
References: <cc.b217048.27161bb6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001012082528.40576e56@mailhost.intellistar.net>

   You need the Compaq Diagnostics and Setup Disk to get into the Bios on a
Compaq. I think one or two of the utilities will also work but not as well.
I think I have a complete set of the Compaq files. I'll pack them with
Teledisk and send them to you.  I have the machine description but I'll
have to go dig it out.

    Joe

At 03:24 PM 10/11/00 -0500, you wrote:
>Looking for information about a Compaq Deskpro 286.  I have two of 
>them.  Would like to know some specs, how to get into the BIOS, etc.
>
>Thank you!
>
>Tarsi
>210
>
>


From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Thu Oct 12 10:38:07 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: Compaq Deskpro 286
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001012084456.0246eeb0@binhost.com>
References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB1E9@tegntserver.tegjeff .com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001012103807.4057dce4@mailhost.intellistar.net>

Tarsi,

   I found one set of Compaq Dos 3.3 disk that have the setup program. I
tried to copy them with Teledisk but encountered a read error and Teledisk
decided to chug endlessly so I had to stop. SOMEWHERE I have the install
file from Comapq to create 360k disks. If you can't find the Bi setup
utiliy, let me know and I'll dig around till I find it.  What do you need
to know about the 286? I have the 286 Product Service Training manual.

   Joe

At 08:46 AM 10/12/00 -0500, you wrote:
>At 06:11 PM 10/11/00 -0400, you wrote:
>> > Looking for information about a Compaq Deskpro 286.  I have two of
>> > them.  Would like to know some specs, how to get into the BIOS, etc.
>>
>>When painted gray (any shade you choose), they make an excellent
>>anchor for the bass boat, although the bass (and EPA) may disagree...
>
>I'm surprised I didn't get a hernia carrying that thing home from Goodwill. 
>Although you just HAVE to love the rubber-mounted harddrive chassis to 
>reduce vibrations.  That's classic.
>
>:)
>Tarsi
>210
>
>


From pat at transarc.ibm.com  Thu Oct 12 09:45:37 2000
From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: Intel 310   286 box
In-Reply-To: <39E5B333.8020981C@home.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1001012103858.693B-100000@smithfield.transarc.ibm.com>

The 310 has no "monitor and keyboard" - you just hook a dumb terminal (or
equivalent) up to the console port.

You'll need an OS for it if you don't have one already.  When I was using
these things, the choices were Xenix and iRMX.  (iRMX is a proprietary OS
that was mostly aimed at real-time, embedded applications)

I *might* have a copy of Xenix for the 310 around, but I'll need to get to
my ancestral home (about 300 miles from where I am right now....) in order
to dig around for that.  Remind me - I might not be able to get to it for
a month or so.  This would be about 15 years old, and I do not guarantee
that the disks are still readable. 

Sorry I don't have more info for you at hand - I think I've flushed most
of what I knew about these machines out of my head ...

--Pat.


From jfoust at threedee.com  Thu Oct 12 09:40:04 2000
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: NEC APC available
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001012093924.028a0a30@pc>


Contact the person below, not me. 

- John

:
:::
:
:::
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 00:14:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: pppmjs <pppmjs@yahoo.com>
Subject: An Old Computer
To: jfoust@threedee.com
:
:

Hi there- 

I found your link thru a site on Computer museums.

 I have a functional NEC Advanced Personal Computer
(APC) (1983) It runs with 2 - 8" floppies. Believe to
have been built to run/assist by BridgePort CNC
machines. Operating system is Dos 2.1 Have operating
manuals & guides. (Got it to boot, but didn't get no
further, as I'm not sure what some of the disks are.)

I need to possibly get something out of this
system...say $125-$150,or more if it's possibly a rare
find(?), if in fact it's worth anything, I really
don't know, but believe it would be.

If your interested or know of someone  that may be,
please reply back.

Thanks for your time

Michael Salomaki
pppmjs@yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/


From jfoust at threedee.com  Thu Oct 12 09:57:28 2000
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: 48v dc power
In-Reply-To: <39E3BA59.3D0FE289@mcmanis.com>
References: <000f01c01f7a$06718cf0$2b0e9a8d@ajp166>
 <l03102803b5e92480ede8@[192.168.1.4]>
 <20001010170951.F17446@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001012095342.027c5d80@pc>

At 05:54 PM 10/10/00 -0700, Chuck McManis wrote:
>Why not buy a "dead" UPS that can over the wattage of your system and
>install a 12V in plug on the back. Most of these use a 12V DC input and
>provide acceptable power on the output. Its cheaper than simply buying a
>12V -> 120V inverter @600Watts or so. 
At 07:30 PM 10/10/00 -0700, Shawn T. Rutledge wrote:
>Because it's grossly inefficient.  Why convert from 12V to 120V AC and
>then back to 12V, 5V, etc... they design some really efficient DC-DC
>converters for laptops (to convert battery voltage to 5V) so it should
>be possible (cheaply) for desktops also.

Not only have I wondered about the most efficient way to
power a PC inside a car, but other devices...  a few months
back I was looking for a 12 volt to 6 volt converter to 
power a Sony GV-9 video deck in the car, to no avail.

All the units I found were too low in amps-out.  I avoided
the 12v -> 120v -> wall wart solution as too gross and inefficient,
but I guess it would work.

- John


From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Thu Oct 12 11:16:45 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: Compaq Deskpro 286
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001012111645.39efad98@mailhost.intellistar.net>

FYI.

	Q: Need setup disk.

	A:    Eureka! Try
"http://www.compaq.com/support/files/obsolete_diagnostics.html". I think
the file that you want is the one named "SP0316.zip". Unzip it and it will
create the install file for a 360K disk. The same webpage has the install
file for creating 3.5" disks also.

     Joe


From tarsi at binhost.com  Thu Oct 12 10:14:37 2000
From: tarsi at binhost.com (Tarsi)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: Compaq Deskpro 286
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001012103807.4057dce4@mailhost.intellistar.net>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001012084456.0246eeb0@binhost.com>
 <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB1E9@tegntserver.tegjeff .com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001012100814.02462050@binhost.com>


>I found one set of Compaq Dos 3.3 disk that have the setup program. I
>tried to copy them with Teledisk but encountered a read error and Teledisk
>decided to chug endlessly so I had to stop.

I can't find anywhere to download Teledisk...any ideas?

>SOMEWHERE I have the install
>file from Comapq to create 360k disks. If you can't find the Bi setup
>utiliy, let me know and I'll dig around till I find it.  What do you need
>to know about the 286? I have the 286 Product Service Training manual.

I have the setup utility install from the Compaq website, I'm just having 
issues getting it onto a 5.25" floppy.  I think my drives are toasted (the 
ones I'm using to transfer...not sure, though).  The hard drive is working, 
but I can't get in to set it up.   I just want to know everything. :)

That, or when I plug in the keyboard (on the one machine), I get gibberish 
on the screen...IE: none of the keys type the right thing.  I hit Enter, 
and I get an "S", etc.  I have two of these Compaqs.  Same model, 
AFAIK.  So....

I just want to be able to get into the BIOS, get the drives set up right (I 
think the CMOS battery is dead so the settings were lost), and get it up 
and working.  Not sure what I'll do with it yet, but will probably try a 
terminal emulator to get it as a term on my linux box.  (null-modem cable, 
etc.)  It doesn't HAVE to have a use, because I'm a collector...I take any 
old computer and work with them.  It's fun as heck.  I don't have this one 
yet, so I'm trying to get it going (heck, I don't have a 286 yet, so this 
would be my first.)

So, I'll take any manuals, disks, etc...anything associated with this 
product.  It makes it more complete if I have more of the things that comes 
with it.  I'll give some green to get copies of manuals, disks, 
etc...whatever you feel like.

Thanks for the help!

Tarsi
210


From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com  Thu Oct 12 10:17:00 2000
From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: Fleamarkets (was Re: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0))
In-Reply-To: <000f01c03457$9cb1f000$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>
Message-ID: <001301c0345f$785a86b0$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>


It aint no VCF, but the last MIT Flea of the year 
is this Sunday!  (IBM 5100 last seen: 1992, $200.00)

   http://web.mit.edu/w1mx/www/swapfest.html

John A.
(Didn't buy it.  Fool!)



From at258 at osfn.org  Thu Oct 12 10:30:42 2000
From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: ADM31
In-Reply-To: <l03102804b60b5b65e194@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.1001012112840.11471A-100000@osfn.org>


I have a Xerox copy of the Lear-Seigler DP-211 manual "ADM31 Intermediate 
Terminal Video Display Unit Users Reference" -  May, 1980 if anyone is 
interested.

From tarsi at binhost.com  Thu Oct 12 10:43:35 2000
From: tarsi at binhost.com (Tarsi)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: 48v dc power
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20001012095342.027c5d80@pc>
References: <39E3BA59.3D0FE289@mcmanis.com>
 <000f01c01f7a$06718cf0$2b0e9a8d@ajp166>
 <l03102803b5e92480ede8@[192.168.1.4]>
 <20001010170951.F17446@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001012104050.024619e0@binhost.com>


>At 07:30 PM 10/10/00 -0700, Shawn T. Rutledge wrote:
> >Because it's grossly inefficient.  Why convert from 12V to 120V AC and
> >then back to 12V, 5V, etc... they design some really efficient DC-DC
> >converters for laptops (to convert battery voltage to 5V) so it should
> >be possible (cheaply) for desktops also.

The worst problem about running power directly from the car's supply is 
that it's not a clean, steady stream of juice.  Computers run best on clean 
power, and a car's power is anything but.  Hence, the deal of being grossly 
inefficient in changing 12V-->120V-->12/5V is true, but if you're using an 
inverter + UPS or some such, you get the benefit of the cleaning up of that 
power supply.

Now, granted, with all my electronics around my apartment (25-30 computers 
+ audio + phone), no doubt my power is less than clean, not to say anything 
about transmission rates for my ethernet or the cancer I'm getting from the 
EMF radiation. :)

Tarsi
210


From bills at adrenaline.com  Thu Oct 12 10:44:14 2000
From: bills at adrenaline.com (Bill Sudbrink)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: New find - OSI Challenger 4P
In-Reply-To: <NEEEJCNDEHGPLCKLAOKBKEJDCFAA.r.stek@snet.net>
Message-ID: <NEBBKAPCFMFEHMEIOCIKAEIBCCAA.bills@adrenaline.com>

> Wheeee!  I got an OSI Challenger 4P today

Congrats!

> (does this complete my collection of early micros with
> walnut sides?  I now have my Sol and  NorthStar Horizon
> and Challenger.)

That's one of the reasons I was so happy to get my Sol.

> Since I never even saw one of these in the 70's, I could
> use some help.  Does anyone have docs they would be willing
> to copy for a reasonable fee? Any other advice cheerfully
> accepted.

I made a complete copy of the SAMs Photofacts for the C4P and
C4P-MF (they are very different!) for Doug Coward as well as
boot disks.  Haven't heard a progress report from him in a
while.  The only reason I'm passing the buck is that I've
changed employers since then and my new employer is a lot
stingier with the copier (also, the copier sucks) and it would
be a lot quicker to make copies from the copies as opposed to
folding out and manually positioning the original.  If I had
been thinking, I would have made myself a copy of the copy
before I gave it to Doug.

I have a working C4P and C4P-MF and will give you any help
I can.

BTW: Sorry to reply so late, life got busy and I'm just now
catching up.

From rdd at smart.net  Thu Oct 12 11:03:09 2000
From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: Entertainment Value
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0010120129170.29528-100000@panix2.panix.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010121140310.18844-100000@smarty.smart.net>

On Thu, 12 Oct 2000, John Lawson wrote:
>       Yet-to-be-plundered Jerry Springer Topics:

ROFL! :-)

>   Upright Vintage Computer Collector is secretly an E-Bay Slut and once
> sold a Royal McBee to the highest bidder: a scrapper from Taiwan.

Whew! ...some #$%*!@!! only found out a about my selling that system
to the scrapper and not the little-known, unused, ENIAC clone that was
found in the basement of a warehouse sold as gov't surplus.  However,
would you believe that these were just honest $^%^!*%$@! mistakes and
that I was conned by the *#$&*#! b*&^%rds? ;-)

>   London-based Enthusiast and Under-Employed Physicist admits to
> converting all his Classics to 110 VAC 60Htz and using a hidden rotary
> inverter in his basement. Discovered after neighbors complained to police
> about the incessant humming, and late night cries of "It Lives!!! It
> Lives!!!"

Hmmm...

>   Ex VCF Promoter and Producer gives up profitable consulting business,
> salty wit and caustic repartee, to take up new carreer as a Sunday School
> Teacher and Spiritual Counsellor in the Great Midwest.

Who has given up his favorite words to his students who surprise their
parents with their new vocabulary; he is then never heard uttering
another bad word in the presence of adults.  A few months later, he
finds this lifestyle to not be profitable enough and starts the cult
of the Sellamites who tell of his most blessed holiness, and his
spiritual teachings and revelations, in airports and strip shopping
centers around the world, while selling flowers and cheap PC-clones
running MS-Windows for him out of the back of decrepit minivans also
used to recruit new followers.

--
Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of
All Rights Reserved            Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to
rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd   a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD 





From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Thu Oct 12 11:09:33 2000
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010112332260.5872-100000@smarty.smart.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010111339470.2585-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <39E5FE5D.10554.6FD49EC@localhost>

May I jump in (your rant started as a reply to
my mailing) ?

> > What about the VCF makes you think it will "cause damage to hamfests and
> > deplete them of the few remaining 'vintage' computers"?  The VCF *is* a
> > place to go find old computers.  Do you actually think people would go to
> > hamfests and scour them for all the old computer crap they can find just
> > to bring it to the VCF and hawk it for eBay prices?  You fool!

> The VCF is also a place to draw the attention of non-hackers to
> computer collecting; while the prices of older equipment at VCF may
> not be terribly high, in terms of e-bay pricing or affordability for
> most of us here, I recon that they're still far higher than they were
> at hamfests several years ago.

Let's see, how would you name a meeting where several buyers went
home with new toys at acceptable prices (a TRS 80 M1 with expansion
box, printer and all dust covers (!) at USD 30 isn't realy overpriced)
and some pricepushing dealer went home with their entire stock ?

> > Are you therefore meaning to imply that the VCF is in fact detrimental to
> > the hobby of collecting and perserving computers and their history?  You
> > idiot!

> No, I neither said nor implied that.  What I
> was implying is that it's harmful for those of us who like to collect
> and hack interesting finds that we pick up for a few dollars -
> treasures that were someone else's trash, you might say.  In years
> past, before computer, and other vintage electronics, collecting
> became fashionable, some of us were able to spend less than US$100 and
> fill up a large station wagon with all sorts of computers, plus a few
> bits of Heathkit equipment, various electronic components, some audio
> stuff with tubes (valves), and then come home to find lots more
> interesing old computer finds lurking for-sale on Usenet, often for
> the cost of shipping.

Take into account that time is progressing, and the number
of available systems is shrinking - If 10 years ago 90% of
all obsolete H-8s became scraped and 10% ended at ham fests,
it resulted in plenty systems, since the absolute number was
quite large. Just nowadays the absolute number is close to
zero, and every aproach to save even single systems from the
dumpster is needed. And promoting the collectibility is one
way. Of course, some may try to get the green paper by the
pound, but in general it just opens a path for people to
learn that there are other people who take the old box /
board / terminal, so it must not end in a dumpster.

Remember, todays 10 year old computer isn't a H8, Altair
or TRS-80, but rather a 386 Box !!!

> We didn't collect just for the sake of collecting or squirreling away
> equipment, for future profit, to complete a "collection," etc.  We
> collected to have more fun toys to take apart, examine, repair,
> restore and hack.  

Maybe attend to the next VCF, and your view may change - the crowd
is way more like what you describe - this greedy fine suit wearing
non hacker collector is virtualy unseen. You're eventualy implying
something that just isn't true.

> I sense that this group is composed of two different groups of people,
> who still have something in common - a desire to obtain and preserve
> older equipment.  We just have differnt ideas as to how we go about
> it, the "serious collectors" and shelf-liners who are more interested
> in history and unmodified equipment verses the hackers who preserve
> equipment through curiosity, tinkering and reverse engineering and are
> responsible for the actual preservation of working systems.  The
> former go around thinking "what's it worth" the later "neat, a new toy
> to hack!"  I could expand upon this further, but I haven't the time
> tonight, alas.

There's more than black and white - otherwise I'd look look lick
a chess board. It is possible to bring 'original conditions' and
'play around' under one roof.

In fact, again Classic Computing is siilar to Vintage Cars, there
are different aproaches. Of course, there are show room collector
guys where the cars are never moved (but even huge collections of
true unique cars, like the one of the Deutsches Museum send pices
to meetings on their own wheels), and on the other hand there are
the Hot Rod comunity - don't kill me, I'm serious, these Hot Rods
are by any means classic cars, and so their owners are preserving
history ... just a bit modified to fit the individual taste! Alas
it's hard to find someone who includes them.

And between this extrems there's the vast majority of collectors
who own just one, or maybe a few cars, who donate all their time
to restore the original condition and run them on every possible
occasion. Even some who restore an old car as vehicle for daily
use (And some who just buy a restored car to impress friends).



Belive me, VCF is (at least until now, and until the futur as far
as I participate) by no means a great thing to bring real people
together and help the technoids, and not a sell out of our hobby.

Gruss
H.

--
VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen
http://www.vintage.org/vcfe
http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Thu Oct 12 11:22:39 2000
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: Entertainment Value
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010121140310.18844-100000@smarty.smart.net>
References: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0010120129170.29528-100000@panix2.panix.com>
Message-ID: <39E6016F.11416.7094713@localhost>


> >   Ex VCF Promoter and Producer gives up profitable consulting business,
> > salty wit and caustic repartee, to take up new carreer as a Sunday School
> > Teacher and Spiritual Counsellor in the Great Midwest.

> Who has given up his favorite words to his students who surprise their
> parents with their new vocabulary; he is then never heard uttering
> another bad word in the presence of adults.  A few months later, he
> finds this lifestyle to not be profitable enough and starts the cult
> of the Sellamites who tell of his most blessed holiness, and his
> spiritual teachings and revelations, in airports and strip shopping
> centers around the world, while selling flowers and cheap PC-clones
> running MS-Windows for him out of the back of decrepit minivans also
> used to recruit new followers.

Of course they wear all the same black T-Shirts with the holy 
letters N E R D on the front... And he himself will monitor
his children in front of one of his 365 Perqs...

:))

Gruss
H.

--
VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen
http://www.vintage.org/vcfe
http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

From cem14 at cornell.edu  Thu Oct 12 11:54:18 2000
From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: 48v dc power
References: <39E3BA59.3D0FE289@mcmanis.com>
	 <000f01c01f7a$06718cf0$2b0e9a8d@ajp166>
	 <l03102803b5e92480ede8@[192.168.1.4]>
	 <20001010170951.F17446@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001012104050.024619e0@binhost.com>
Message-ID: <39E5ECBA.631D42E1@cornell.edu>

Tarsi wrote:
> The worst problem about running power directly from the car's supply is
> that it's not a clean, steady stream of juice.  Computers run best on clean
> power, and a car's power is anything but.  Hence, the deal of being grossly
> inefficient in changing 12V-->120V-->12/5V is true, but if you're using an
> inverter + UPS or some such, you get the benefit of the cleaning up of that
> power supply.

That's an understatement; voltage can fluctuate
between 8 and 15V as different subsystems in the car
are turned on; then there are spikes in excess of 100V
induced by different systems; and then, if your battery
contacts are less than perfect you can have 30VAC, rectified
(or not, if the rectifiers fail in a particularly nasty
mode!) from the alternator.

I have some experience using electronics in cars, having
worked in control systems for engines, as well as active suspension
systems and active four-wheel steering, not to mention my HEV
experience.  Working with a 20KW, 380VAC alternator in a vehicle
is interesting.  And it is weird when you see
that the throttle that you're adjusting by hand is linearly
related to the ~400VAC readings from the alternator :-) .

-- 
Carlos Murillo-Sanchez    email:  cem14@cornell.edu  
428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department
Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853

From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net  Thu Oct 12 11:57:34 2000
From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (FBA)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
Message-ID: <003b01c0346d$90b981d0$c834d986@wkchafauradon.beckman.com>

>Let's see, how would you name a meeting where several buyers went
>home with new toys at acceptable prices (a TRS 80 M1 with expansion
>box, printer and all dust covers (!) at USD 30 isn't realy overpriced)
>and some pricepushing dealer went home with their entire stock ?
>
I just Wish I could have seen his face when he was packing his stuff back.
I hope he swore to never make it back.
Francois



From tarsi at binhost.com  Thu Oct 12 11:58:56 2000
From: tarsi at binhost.com (Tarsi)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: VCF and Collecting
In-Reply-To: <39E5FE5D.10554.6FD49EC@localhost>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010112332260.5872-100000@smarty.smart.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010111339470.2585-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001012115306.027a28a0@binhost.com>


>way. Of course, some may try to get the green paper by the
>pound, but in general it just opens a path for people to
>learn that there are other people who take the old box /
>board / terminal, so it must not end in a dumpster.

Although I've never attended a VCF but would love to (Midwest USA, 
anyone?), I can agree with the above.  Just starting serious collecting a 
little over a year and a half ago, many many people around here are amazed 
and bewildered that I have any interest in their old "piece of junk" 
systems.  As I get the news out, more and more computers are coming 
in....people call me up, saying, "I heard from so-and-so that you take old 
computers."  It's great.

I guess I would say that although the idea of alerting more people to the 
world of collecting sometimes makes the prices for such items go up, I'm 
not as all-fire-concerned about prices as I am about the philosophy.  We, 
as collectors, are taking pieces of history into our own (sometimes 
capable, sometimes plain lucky) hands to repair, restore, and work on these 
old, beautiful machines.  If I can persuade someone else into thinking that 
old computers are pretty neat, then I feel really good about it.  I want 
more people than just myself to feel the power and beauty and wonderment at 
playing with an old, big-chipped machine.

It makes the collectors into a community.  And therefore our resources as a 
whole (knowledge, parts, service) increase, making us each a better 
collector in the long run.

Tarsi
210


From red at bears.org  Thu Oct 12 11:58:23 2000
From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: NeXT hardware issue (was: mac serial pinouts)
In-Reply-To: <00ce01c03304$52094980$24731fd1@default>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0010121255290.18140-100000@instinct.bears.org>

On Tue, 10 Oct 2000, John R. Keys Jr. wrote:

> I have the same problem on a NeXT slab, I just pull the plug on it to
> cut power.  If you get a fix let me know.  Thanks

There's a PROM setting for "auto on after power fail".

Disable this. I think it's a FAQ. If not, it should be.

ok
r.


From mlnealey at earthlink.net  Thu Oct 12 12:08:52 2000
From: mlnealey at earthlink.net (Mike Nealey)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: Alphastation 255 question..
Message-ID: <39E5F024.34521389@earthlink.net>

Hi All!

Quick question. Does the Digital Alphastation 255 take a regular ( as in
PC type ) floppy disk drive? Is there a special DEC FD drive I need to
get? I have a part number for the FD from DEC but the part description
doesn't tell me anything and the purchase price for the item is about
what you would expect for a PC type floppy drive buying direct from a
manufacturer.

Any help is appreciated...

Thanks...
Mike N.


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Oct 12 12:22:47 2000
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
In-Reply-To: <003b01c0346d$90b981d0$c834d986@wkchafauradon.beckman.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010121013090.21403-100000@lanshark.lanminds.com>

> >Let's see, how would you name a meeting where several buyers went
> >home with new toys at acceptable prices (a TRS 80 M1 with expansion
> >box, printer and all dust covers (!) at USD 30 isn't realy overpriced)
> >and some pricepushing dealer went home with their entire stock ?
> >
> I just Wish I could have seen his face when he was packing his stuff back.
> I hope he swore to never make it back.

I don't think that my prices were THAT bad!  We made a lot of people
happy, got rid of a few boxes of old class handout reprints from Dr.
Dobbs, and found homes for a few items (PCJrs, Portfolio, etc.).  At the
end of the day, I sold my entire remaining stock that I had brought down
to a colleague who is starting a collection (OSI, N*'s, Compupro, etc) for
a preset price.  He still owes me one more pizza.


Sellam puts on a fantastic event (calling it a "great fucking show" could
be miscontrued).  I shall return.
 
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred        cisin@xenosoft.com


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Oct 12 12:27:42 2000
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:52 2005
Subject: 48v dc power
In-Reply-To: <39E5ECBA.631D42E1@cornell.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010121023420.21403-100000@lanshark.lanminds.com>

> > The worst problem about running power directly from the car's supply is
> > that it's not a clean, steady stream of juice.  Computers run best on clean
> > power, and a car's power is anything but.  Hence, the deal of being grossly
> That's an understatement; voltage can fluctuate
> between 8 and 15V as different subsystems in the car
> are turned on; then there are spikes in excess of 100V
> induced by different systems; and then, if your battery
> contacts are less than perfect you can have 30VAC, rectified
> (or not, if the rectifiers fail in a particularly nasty
> mode!) from the alternator.

Yes, but that AC (sometimes quite a bit higher than 30V (220v?)) is THREE
PHASE!  What kind of computer were you planning to run?

Adding major mass of batteries can sink much of the variation.  

Power CAN be cleaned up.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred        cisin@xenosoft.com


From bills at adrenaline.com  Thu Oct 12 12:41:28 2000
From: bills at adrenaline.com (Bill Sudbrink)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010121013090.21403-100000@lanshark.lanminds.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBKAPCFMFEHMEIOCIKOEICCCAA.bills@adrenaline.com>

> At the end of the day, I sold my entire remaining
> stock that I had brought down to a colleague who
> is starting a collection (OSI, N*'s, Compupro, etc)

What variety of OSI (if I may ask)?


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Oct 12 12:29:02 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: early non-US personal computers
In-Reply-To: <SIMEON.10010121245.D@notmac.uwe.ac.uk> from "John Honniball" at Oct 12, 0 12:57:45 pm
Message-ID: <m13jmAH-000IyHC@p850ug1>

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From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Thu Oct 12 13:58:10 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: Compaq Deskpro 286
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001012100814.02462050@binhost.com>
References: <3.0.1.16.20001012103807.4057dce4@mailhost.intellistar.net>
 <5.0.0.25.2.20001012084456.0246eeb0@binhost.com>
 <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB1E9@tegntserver.tegjeff .com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001012135810.096708f6@mailhost.intellistar.net>

At 10:14 AM 10/12/00 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>I found one set of Compaq Dos 3.3 disk that have the setup program. I
>>tried to copy them with Teledisk but encountered a read error and Teledisk
>>decided to chug endlessly so I had to stop.
>
>I can't find anywhere to download Teledisk...any ideas?

   That's because it is a commercail product. A lot of us on CC-list went
together last year and made a group purchase of it.  But I found the
program on Comapq's website so you can get it directly from there and you
won't need Teledisk.

>
>>SOMEWHERE I have the install
>>file from Comapq to create 360k disks. If you can't find the Bi setup
>>utiliy, let me know and I'll dig around till I find it.  What do you need
>>to know about the 286? I have the 286 Product Service Training manual.
>
>I have the setup utility install from the Compaq website, I'm just having 
>issues getting it onto a 5.25" floppy.  I think my drives are toasted (the 
>ones I'm using to transfer...not sure, though).  The hard drive is working, 
>but I can't get in to set it up.   I just want to know everything. :)
>
>That, or when I plug in the keyboard (on the one machine), I get gibberish 
>on the screen...IE: none of the keys type the right thing.  I hit Enter, 
>and I get an "S", etc. 
 
  That's strange. Yu might try a regular AT style keyboard on it.


 I have two of these Compaqs.  Same model, 
>AFAIK.  So....
>
>I just want to be able to get into the BIOS, get the drives set up right (I 
>think the CMOS battery is dead so the settings were lost), and get it up 
>and working.  Not sure what I'll do with it yet, but will probably try a 
>terminal emulator to get it as a term on my linux box.  (null-modem cable, 
>etc.)  It doesn't HAVE to have a use, because I'm a collector...I take any 
>old computer and work with them.  It's fun as heck. 


  I know what you mean.  I have a pile of stuff that I've picked up just
because it's interesting. FWIW I have a pile of Compaqs but they're all
Portable IIIs and 386 Portables except for one old original Portable. The
PIIIs and 386 Portables are lunch box size machines that have keyboards
that store on the side and gas plasma screens built in. I like that style
of machine because they can use standard ISA cards (with the optional pod
that clips on the back) and are still portable. I use them a lot for things
like HP-IB controllers, EPROM burners (the ones that require a controller
card). I even stuck a CompiCard in one and use it for running 8" floppy
drives.


 I don't have this one 
>yet, so I'm trying to get it going (heck, I don't have a 286 yet, so this 
>would be my first.)
>
>So, I'll take any manuals, disks, etc...anything associated with this 
>product.  It makes it more complete if I have more of the things that comes 
>with it.  I'll give some green to get copies of manuals, disks, 
>etc...whatever you feel like.

    OK I'll see what I have.,

    Joe
>
>Thanks for the help!
>
>Tarsi
>210
>
>

From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net  Thu Oct 12 13:01:12 2000
From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (FBA)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
Message-ID: <005001c03476$7f930260$c834d986@wkchafauradon.beckman.com>

I gues that was not you I had in mind, after all I bought your portfolio
which in my opinion was rightly priced for the content. (did you ever find
that parallel port?)
The seller I was refering to had the biggest booth of all and the most
inflated prices I have ever seen. For reference the name started with
"Computer" and ended in "Jones", That's the guy who didn't want to sell at
the VCF. I don't know where he comes from but I have never ever ever seen a
dealer in used "crap" refusing to bargain. And that really pissed me off
(here you go Sellam another example of where cussing IS appropriate). That's
the dude I hope had to take his load back home. He's a buisness and should
know better. If he wants "ebay prices" (TM) for his stuff, he should sell on
ebay or out of his store or whaterver hole in the wall he normally operates
from. A hobby meeting is for hobbyists where you unload stuff you don't want
anymore and sell at a reasonable price so you're not out of pocket. If a
business wants to participate, they should undrstand the spirit of the event
and be willing to play by the rules.

I could go on but I have a meeting to attend

My rant
Francois



>> >Let's see, how would you name a meeting where several buyers went
>> >home with new toys at acceptable prices (a TRS 80 M1 with expansion
>> >box, printer and all dust covers (!) at USD 30 isn't realy overpriced)
>> >and some pricepushing dealer went home with their entire stock ?
>> >
>> I just Wish I could have seen his face when he was packing his stuff
back.
>> I hope he swore to never make it back.
>
>I don't think that my prices were THAT bad!  We made a lot of people
>happy, got rid of a few boxes of old class handout reprints from Dr.
>Dobbs, and found homes for a few items (PCJrs, Portfolio, etc.).  At the
>end of the day, I sold my entire remaining stock that I had brought down
>to a colleague who is starting a collection (OSI, N*'s, Compupro, etc) for
>a preset price.  He still owes me one more pizza.
>
>
>Sellam puts on a fantastic event (calling it a "great fucking show" could
>be miscontrued).  I shall return.
>
>--
>Grumpy Ol' Fred        cisin@xenosoft.com
>


From eric at brouhaha.com  Thu Oct 12 13:05:01 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: Intel 310   286 box
In-Reply-To: <39E5B333.8020981C@home.com> (message from ip500 on Thu, 12 Oct
	2000 08:48:51 -0400)
References: <39E5B333.8020981C@home.com>
Message-ID: <20001012180501.20878.qmail@brouhaha.com>

> 	Is any one privy to the workings of an the Intel 310? The one I have is
> missing a monitor and keyboard and hookup is not immediatly obvious to
> me.

That's because it doesn't need a monitor and keyboard.  It needs a dumb
terminal.  Presumably to be plugged into the port mark "console".

From zmerch at 30below.com  Thu Oct 12 13:07:50 2000
From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: VMS/VAX/Alpha questions...
In-Reply-To: <39E5F024.34521389@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20001012140750.015fdd18@mail.30below.com>

This question isn't entirely ontopic (as my DEC 3000 model 300 isn't quite
10 years old) but it also pertains to my VAXstation 3100 & others, so it
should all blend pretty nicely...

How wacko did DEC go with their VAX machines and their newer (as in 150Mhz
Alpha) boxen WRT original DEC hardware? I have OpenVMS 7.1 for Vax, and
OpenVMS 7.21 for Alpha, and I have a chance to order some RZ25's from a
used vendor for $21 each (is that a good price?) which should be enough to
get a couple VAXen running, but I would like something bigger in (at least)
the DEC3000, as I can get some 2Gig drives for $59, and their 1Gig drives
are $29.00.

I do know about the VAXstation boot drive limitations of 1Gig... For the
price, I like the 1Giggers better, but they won't do me crap if the VAX
won't recognize 'em... ;-)

(I've got a few DEC drives laying around, so I've not tried any non-DEC
drives in my VAXen yet...)

Anyway, TIA for any help..
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger   ---   sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
Recycling is good, right???  Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig.

If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead
disarmament should *not* be your first career choice.

From eric at brouhaha.com  Thu Oct 12 13:07:54 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
In-Reply-To: <39E5FE5D.10554.6FD49EC@localhost> (Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010111339470.2585-100000@siconic.com> <39E5FE5D.10554.6FD49EC@localhost>
Message-ID: <20001012180754.20914.qmail@brouhaha.com>

> and some pricepushing dealer went home with their entire stock ?

Yup.  Every time I walked by said dealer, I muttered loudly, "priced
to stay."

Rumor has it that said deal dumpstered a bunch of stuff after VCF 3
rather than hauling it back.  I wonder if this happened again?

From healyzh at aracnet.com  Thu Oct 12 13:17:04 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: Alphastation 255 question..
In-Reply-To: <39E5F024.34521389@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <v04020a35b60baff54bf5@[192.168.1.5]>

>Hi All!
>
>Quick question. Does the Digital Alphastation 255 take a regular ( as in
>PC type ) floppy disk drive? Is there a special DEC FD drive I need to
>get? I have a part number for the FD from DEC but the part description
>doesn't tell me anything and the purchase price for the item is about
>what you would expect for a PC type floppy drive buying direct from a
>manufacturer.
>
>Any help is appreciated...
>
>Thanks...
>Mike N.

Does it have a SCSI connector or a floppy connector?  Do you have the old
floppy?  For that matter why do you actually need the floppy, there might
be ways of getting around using it.

The AlphaStation 200 and 255 are supposed to be a lot alike, I just popped
the hood on one of my 200's and it's got a RX23L, which looks a lot like a
normal PC floppy drive to me.  I'd say if you've got one laying around give
it a try.

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|                 http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/              |

From cem14 at cornell.edu  Thu Oct 12 13:16:22 2000
From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: 48v dc power
References: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010121023420.21403-100000@lanshark.lanminds.com>
Message-ID: <39E5FFF6.9CD655D@cornell.edu>

"Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote:
> > That's an understatement; voltage can fluctuate
> > between 8 and 15V as different subsystems in the car
> > are turned on; then there are spikes in excess of 100V
> > induced by different systems; and then, if your battery
> > contacts are less than perfect you can have 30VAC, rectified
> > (or not, if the rectifiers fail in a particularly nasty
> > mode!) from the alternator.
> 
> Yes, but that AC (sometimes quite a bit higher than 30V (220v?)) is THREE
> PHASE!  What kind of computer were you planning to run?

No, my point is that the 12V system in a car is already nasty
stuff and that there are failure modes in parts of the car's
electrical system, such as the battery terminals or alternator
rectifiers, that can lead to _much_ nastier behavior.

> Adding major mass of batteries can sink much of the variation.

Again, until the terminals corrode.

> Power CAN be cleaned up.
> Grumpy Ol' Fred        cisin@xenosoft.com

Exactly.  In a car, it _HAS_ to be cleaned up if you want
to power electronic devices.


-- 
Carlos Murillo-Sanchez    email:  cem14@cornell.edu  
428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department
Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853

From jos.mar at bluewin.ch  Thu Oct 12 15:14:15 2000
From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (jos.mar)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: early non-US personal computers
In-Reply-To: <m13jmAH-000IyHC@p850ug1>
References: <m13jmAH-000IyHC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <00101222231401.00354@jos>

 
> IIRC the Junior Computer was 6502 based. They did publish an SC/MP 
> machines as well, and the 'video game comuter' which was 2650-based. More 
> recently (like this year :-)) they've published various microcontroller 
> boards.
> 

I build the junior and it is definitly 6502 based. 

In 1974 the dutch version of elector "Elektuur" published  a complete machine
based on TTL . It had a choice of "cheap" memory consisting of CCD
shiftregisters (-> no random access...) , and expensive memory consisting of
2102's. I very much regret that I do not have these articles anymore., altough
they were not up to the normal Elektor standard.

			Jos Dreesen

From rdd at smart.net  Thu Oct 12 13:21:25 2000
From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: 48v dc power
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010121023420.21403-100000@lanshark.lanminds.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010121406390.7122-100000@smarty.smart.net>

On Thu, 12 Oct 2000, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
[running comptuers from an automobile]

> Adding major mass of batteries can sink much of the variation.  
> 
> Power CAN be cleaned up.

It seems that the obvious solution is being overlooked.  Modify the
radiator so that it has about a 2" to 3" hole in the middle (which
will require some welding so that the core doesn't leak.  Add an
additional transmision-oil cooler, and a few other cooling accessories
to compensate for the slightly diminished cooling capacity of the
radiator.  Now, if necessary, remove a similar sized area from the
grill, etc.  Having done that, you can add an extension to the
crankshaft (you'll probably need a new, custom, harmonic balancer as
well) that can be attached to a heavy-duty generator... just duct-tape
it to the roof when not in use.  There, now you can power anything
from a C64 to a large minicomputer from your car... of course, if you
want to use it while driving, you'll need to weld the generator to the
front end of the car (so you'd better have a heavy, solid, frame) and
duct-tape the computer to the roof.  I recon one could easily run a 6'
rack of PDP-11 equipment this way during long highway drives.  You
might want to put reflectors on the generator if you do this and plan
to drive at night.

--
Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of
All Rights Reserved            Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to
rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd   a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD 





From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Oct 12 12:57:28 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: 48v dc power
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001012104050.024619e0@binhost.com> from "Tarsi" at Oct 12, 0 10:43:35 am
Message-ID: <m13jmbj-000IyNC@p850ug1>

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Oct 12 12:43:09 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: Another PDP-11 available: Wisconsin
In-Reply-To: <39E505DF.382B441@idirect.com> from "Jerome Fine" at Oct 11, 0 08:29:19 pm
Message-ID: <m13jmNt-000IyHC@p850ug1>

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Oct 12 13:10:51 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: early non-US personal computers
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010120424330.10401-100000@planetdoug.com> from "Doug Salot" at Oct 12, 0 04:46:41 am
Message-ID: <m13jmog-000IyQC@p850ug1>

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Oct 12 12:48:36 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: Entertainment Value
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0010120129170.29528-100000@panix2.panix.com> from "John Lawson" at Oct 12, 0 01:46:01 am
Message-ID: <m13jmTA-000IyJC@p850ug1>

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From tarsi at binhost.com  Thu Oct 12 13:44:58 2000
From: tarsi at binhost.com (Tarsi)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: Compaq Deskpro 286
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001012135810.096708f6@mailhost.intellistar.net>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001012100814.02462050@binhost.com>
 <3.0.1.16.20001012103807.4057dce4@mailhost.intellistar.net>
 <5.0.0.25.2.20001012084456.0246eeb0@binhost.com>
 <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB1E9@tegntserver.tegjeff .com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001012134257.027a7d80@binhost.com>


> >That, or when I plug in the keyboard (on the one machine), I get gibberish
> >on the screen...IE: none of the keys type the right thing.  I hit Enter,
> >and I get an "S", etc.
>
>   That's strange. Yu might try a regular AT style keyboard on it.

I tried both an AT keyboard which I had in the house already (M$ or some 
other stuff) and the AT keyboard that came with it. (also from my good 
friends at Goodwill)  Same result both places.  Odd as heck.  Almost the 
exact same thing happened on a Tandy 1000 the other day, I figured I blew a 
keyboard chip or something and parted the sucker out.  Now I wonder if that 
was actually the case or not.

Tarsi
210



From mlnealey at earthlink.net  Thu Oct 12 13:58:47 2000
From: mlnealey at earthlink.net (Mike Nealey)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: Alphastation 255 question..
References: <v04020a35b60baff54bf5@[192.168.1.5]>
Message-ID: <39E609E6.71AF888F@earthlink.net>

Hi Zane,

This machine has "What looks like" a normal floppy cable. It is not SCSI. I
don't really _need_ a floppy but the machine has a big hole in the front where
a floppy went and someone removed it. They left the cable though. I would like
to mount a floppy here just in case it's needed and to close the hole. :^)

I tried the only old floppy I had laying around. The light stayed on on the
front. I don't know if that means it worked or it didn't. I didn't have time to
do much else with it and I didn't have any OS media to try out. I only have VMS
for my VAXen and I don't have True64Unix. Don't mention WinNT for Alpha.

I guess I'll experiment some more...

Thanks for the reply!

Mike N.


"Zane H. Healy" wrote:

> >Hi All!
> >
> >Quick question. Does the Digital Alphastation 255 take a regular ( as in
> >PC type ) floppy disk drive? Is there a special DEC FD drive I need to
> >get? I have a part number for the FD from DEC but the part description
> >doesn't tell me anything and the purchase price for the item is about
> >what you would expect for a PC type floppy drive buying direct from a
> >manufacturer.
> >
> >Any help is appreciated...
> >
> >Thanks...
> >Mike N.
>
> Does it have a SCSI connector or a floppy connector?  Do you have the old
> floppy?  For that matter why do you actually need the floppy, there might
> be ways of getting around using it.
>
> The AlphaStation 200 and 255 are supposed to be a lot alike, I just popped
> the hood on one of my 200's and it's got a RX23L, which looks a lot like a
> normal PC floppy drive to me.  I'd say if you've got one laying around give
> it a try.
>
>                         Zane
> | Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
> | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
> | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
> +----------------------------------+----------------------------+
> |     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
> |                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
> |                 http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/              |


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Thu Oct 12 14:09:33 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: VMS/VAX/Alpha questions...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20001012140750.015fdd18@mail.30below.com>
References: <39E5F024.34521389@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <v04020a36b60bbb970798@[192.168.1.5]>

>This question isn't entirely ontopic (as my DEC 3000 model 300 isn't quite
>10 years old) but it also pertains to my VAXstation 3100 & others, so it
>should all blend pretty nicely...
>
>How wacko did DEC go with their VAX machines and their newer (as in 150Mhz
>Alpha) boxen WRT original DEC hardware? I have OpenVMS 7.1 for Vax, and
>OpenVMS 7.21 for Alpha, and I have a chance to order some RZ25's from a
>used vendor for $21 each (is that a good price?) which should be enough to
>get a couple VAXen running, but I would like something bigger in (at least)
>the DEC3000, as I can get some 2Gig drives for $59, and their 1Gig drives
>are $29.00.
>
>I do know about the VAXstation boot drive limitations of 1Gig... For the
>price, I like the 1Giggers better, but they won't do me crap if the VAX
>won't recognize 'em... ;-)
>
>(I've got a few DEC drives laying around, so I've not tried any non-DEC
>drives in my VAXen yet...)

I've run my DEC 3000/300LX on a pair of RZ25's, I've also run it on a
StorageWorks shelf of RZ28's.  Taking a look at my main server that's using
a RZ28 as the system disk I'd say 2GB for a system disk and 2GB for a user
disk would be good for your 3000.  I'm now using mostly RZ29's on my server
in a pair of storageworks shelves.  The nice thing about staying with
RZ29's and smaller is the tapes to fit an entire disk on are fairly cheap,
I'm using a Exabyte 8500 in a small Jukebox.

On the 3100, even though you've got the 1GB boot limitation, data disks can
be larger.

Now what was the question?

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|                 http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/              |

From tarsi at binhost.com  Thu Oct 12 14:23:08 2000
From: tarsi at binhost.com (Tarsi)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: Another PDP-11 available: Wisconsin
In-Reply-To: <m13jmNt-000IyHC@p850ug1>
References: <39E505DF.382B441@idirect.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001012142220.027a8210@binhost.com>


>Strange. Running a PDP11, particularly one with a real front panel, and
>with the KM11 card plugged into it, and a logic analyser hung off one of
>the cards seems to be an interesting experience for me. Running a PC isn't...

Heh.  I once _touched_ a PDP11 and got chills.  It wasn't even running.  I 
need to find me one of _those_. :)

Tarsi
210


From tarsi at binhost.com  Thu Oct 12 14:39:48 2000
From: tarsi at binhost.com (Tarsi)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: Alphastation 255 question..
In-Reply-To: <39E609E6.71AF888F@earthlink.net>
References: <v04020a35b60baff54bf5@[192.168.1.5]>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001012143834.027b2160@binhost.com>


>I tried the only old floppy I had laying around. The light stayed on on the
>front. I don't know if that means it worked or it didn't.

When the light on the floppy drive stays on like that, it usually means the 
cable is turned around.  Try putting the cable on the other way (flip it 
over).  Red line on cable goes to Pin #1 on drive.

Tarsi
210


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Oct 12 13:22:14 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: 48v dc power
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010121406390.7122-100000@smarty.smart.net> from "R. D. Davis" at Oct 12, 0 02:21:25 pm
Message-ID: <m13jmzh-000IyHC@p850ug1>

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From healyzh at aracnet.com  Thu Oct 12 15:33:30 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: Alphastation 255 question..
In-Reply-To: <39E609E6.71AF888F@earthlink.net> from "Mike Nealey" at Oct 12, 2000 11:58:47 AM
Message-ID: <200010122033.NAA29516@shell1.aracnet.com>

> This machine has "What looks like" a normal floppy cable. It is not SCSI. I
> don't really _need_ a floppy but the machine has a big hole in the front where
> a floppy went and someone removed it. They left the cable though. I would like
> to mount a floppy here just in case it's needed and to close the hole. :^)

OK, that's a good reason :^)

> I tried the only old floppy I had laying around. The light stayed on on the
> front. I don't know if that means it worked or it didn't. I didn't have time to
> do much else with it and I didn't have any OS media to try out. I only have VMS
> for my VAXen and I don't have True64Unix. Don't mention WinNT for Alpha.

I've *NEVER* used the floppy on any of my Alpha's running VMS, only on the
two running OpenBSD, and I've since learned the trick of having a external
SCSI Hard Drive that I just use in place of the floppy.  I've got one system
that has run Tru64 and NT also, but I've never had a need for the floppy
(the only reason it's run NT is NT actually handles a GUI on a 96MB system 
(always check what memory costs before buying a Alpha) better than OpenVMS, 
and way better than Tru64, that system is now running VMS without DECwindows 
installed and is my server).

> I guess I'll experiment some more...

Since it sounds like you're most concerned about cosmetics I'd just leave
the floppy disconnected and keep your eye out for a cheap RX23L.

			Zane

From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Thu Oct 12 16:47:28 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: Compaq Deskpro 286
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001012134257.027a7d80@binhost.com>
References: <3.0.1.16.20001012135810.096708f6@mailhost.intellistar.net>
 <5.0.0.25.2.20001012100814.02462050@binhost.com>
 <3.0.1.16.20001012103807.4057dce4@mailhost.intellistar.net>
 <5.0.0.25.2.20001012084456.0246eeb0@binhost.com>
 <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB1E9@tegntserver.tegjeff .com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001012164728.3c4f674c@mailhost.intellistar.net>

Tarsi,

   It beats me. Have you tried the Compaq keyboard on another machine? That
might tell you if it's working. I've never used any of the Compaq 286
desktop machines so I don't know enough about them to know if they have any
pecularities.  I have used Compaq AT-style keyboards (probably later models
though) on other machines with no problems so I'm know they were
compatible. I would think that all of the Compaq keyboards would be.  It's
beginning to sound like you have a bad keyboard interface or character look
up ROM in the Compaq.

   Joe

At 01:44 PM 10/12/00 -0500, you wrote:
>
>> >That, or when I plug in the keyboard (on the one machine), I get gibberish
>> >on the screen...IE: none of the keys type the right thing.  I hit Enter,
>> >and I get an "S", etc.
>>
>>   That's strange. Yu might try a regular AT style keyboard on it.
>
>I tried both an AT keyboard which I had in the house already (M$ or some 
>other stuff) and the AT keyboard that came with it. (also from my good 
>friends at Goodwill)  Same result both places.  Odd as heck.  Almost the 
>exact same thing happened on a Tandy 1000 the other day, I figured I blew a 
>keyboard chip or something and parted the sucker out.  Now I wonder if that 
>was actually the case or not.
>
>Tarsi
>210
>
>
>


From zmerch at 30below.com  Thu Oct 12 15:50:11 2000
From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: VMS/VAX/Alpha questions...
In-Reply-To: <v04020a36b60bbb970798@[192.168.1.5]>
References: <3.0.1.32.20001012140750.015fdd18@mail.30below.com>
 <39E5F024.34521389@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20001012165011.015fdd18@mail.30below.com>

Rumor has it that Zane H. Healy may have mentioned these words:

>Now what was the question?

Lemme simplify: Does a VAX or older Alpha box *have* to have DEC drives
installed in them for OpenVMS to work or for the boxes to actually
recognize the drive (a la Compaq, Apple & the like) or can I slap in an IBM
2 gigger and have it work?

[ The largest drive I can find for sale (reasonably) from DEC is a 426Meg,
and I was hoping for bigger, but if a 2Gig IBM (read: non-DEC) drive won't
be recognized, it's not going to do me a hill of beans worth of good... ]

Does DEC say: "You'll run that RZ25 & *Be Happy About It*", or can I run
non-DEC rommed hard drives just fine?

RZ or not RZ, *that* is the question. ;-)

Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger   ---   sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
Recycling is good, right???  Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig.

If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead
disarmament should *not* be your first career choice.

From zmerch at 30below.com  Thu Oct 12 15:55:46 2000
From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: Alphastation 255 question..
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001012143834.027b2160@binhost.com>
References: <39E609E6.71AF888F@earthlink.net>
 <v04020a35b60baff54bf5@[192.168.1.5]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20001012165546.015fdd18@mail.30below.com>

Rumor has it that Tarsi may have mentioned these words:
>
>>I tried the only old floppy I had laying around. The light stayed on on the
>>front. I don't know if that means it worked or it didn't.
>
>When the light on the floppy drive stays on like that, it usually means the 
>cable is turned around.  Try putting the cable on the other way (flip it 
>over).  Red line on cable goes to Pin #1 on drive.

Very good advice, but I would like to add: the drive shroud notches between
cable & floppy are not always compatible or correct - just because the
connector is keyed doesn't mean that that is the correct way to plug it
into the slot -- double check pin one on the cable and on the floppy drive
[read: look at the silk-screening on the interface PCB for a triangle, dot
or "Pin 1"] and *make sure* the red stripe is actually on Pin 1 of the drive.

Nice sharp Leatherman knife blades are just the right size & thickness for
hacking off that stupid little key when it's backwards - I do it 2 or 3
times a month, so it's not a rare occurance around here. ;-)

HTH,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger   ---   sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
Recycling is good, right???  Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig.

If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead
disarmament should *not* be your first career choice.

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Oct 12 15:56:52 2000
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: 48v dc power
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010121406390.7122-100000@smarty.smart.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010121333320.1005-100000@lanshark.lanminds.com>

CLOSE. But, ...  Remove the diodes completely from an alternator.  Select
pulleys for correct ratio, and simply maintain a steady engine speed to
provide 3600 RPM at the alternator shaft.  Now you have 60Hz 3 phase
power.  Adjust the voltage, and run minis and mainframes.
You'll need to drive where there is little traffic to maintain that
constant engine speed.

English hobbyists may need to adjust for machines that don't like 60Hz.  
And running a mini in a mini might be a bit cramped, and not allow enough
room for a proper raised floor.


BTW, use of "Dual terminal" batteries helps a little; when the terminals
that connect the "engine" to the battery corrode, your "accessory" device
is then connected to the battery only, as opposed to being connected to
the "engine" only.
It is also possible (and has been done!) to isolate the auxiliary
batter(ies), and switch between multiple batteries, so that your
"accessory" device is never connected to any part of the vehicle other
than an isolated battery, while another battery is being
charged.  Although I would expect that the switch over,
when the current battery is low, would certainly be noisy.


On Thu, 12 Oct 2000, R. D. Davis wrote:
> It seems that the obvious solution is being overlooked.  Modify the
> radiator so that it has about a 2" to 3" hole in the middle (which
> will require some welding so that the core doesn't leak.  Add an
> additional transmision-oil cooler, and a few other cooling accessories
> to compensate for the slightly diminished cooling capacity of the
> radiator.  Now, if necessary, remove a similar sized area from the
> grill, etc.  Having done that, you can add an extension to the
> crankshaft (you'll probably need a new, custom, harmonic balancer as
> well) that can be attached to a heavy-duty generator... just duct-tape
> it to the roof when not in use.  

Well, a REAL classic already HAS that access for use with the starting
crank.

Or, if you have a classic 4x4, consider just running it all o

There, now you can power anything
> from a C64 to a large minicomputer from your car... of course, if you
> want to use it while driving, you'll need to weld the generator to the
> front end of the car (so you'd better have a heavy, solid, frame) and
> duct-tape the computer to the roof.  I recon one could easily run a 6'
> rack of PDP-11 equipment this way during long highway drives.  You
> might want to put reflectors on the generator if you do this and plan
> to drive at night.

For the sake of visibility, you might want to place all rack mount
equipment BEHIND, not in front of, the driver.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred        cisin@xenosoft.com


From mlnealey at earthlink.net  Thu Oct 12 16:05:22 2000
From: mlnealey at earthlink.net (Mike Nealey)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: Alphastation 255 question..
References: <v04020a35b60baff54bf5@[192.168.1.5]> <5.0.0.25.2.20001012143834.027b2160@binhost.com>
Message-ID: <39E62792.FDEB1A8@earthlink.net>

Hi!

Yes, I'm aware of that. This cable, however, can only go into the drive one way.
It has a ridge which keeps it from going in wrong. It fits into the slot at the
bottom of the floppy. Also, I did verify that the pin 1 on the cable was the pin
1 on the FD.

Thanks...
Mike N.


Tarsi wrote:

> >I tried the only old floppy I had laying around. The light stayed on on the
> >front. I don't know if that means it worked or it didn't.
>
> When the light on the floppy drive stays on like that, it usually means the
> cable is turned around.  Try putting the cable on the other way (flip it
> over).  Red line on cable goes to Pin #1 on drive.
>
> Tarsi
> 210


From donm at cts.com  Thu Oct 12 16:27:10 2000
From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010112332260.5872-100000@smarty.smart.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SCO.4.20.0010121422390.334-100000@crash.cts.com>



On Thu, 12 Oct 2000, R. D. Davis wrote:

> 
> On Wed, 11 Oct 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote:
> > Is this an act, or are you really such a jack-ass?
> 
> Having once met a donkey, I can say that I found it to be a much more
> affable, and well mannered, creature than you appear to be; hence, I
> don't take that as an insult as you apparently intended it to be.  To
> answer your question, however, I don't have four feet, have no long
> ears, and no tail, so, it's not at all difficult to deduce that the
> answer to your question is no.  
> 
> > What about the VCF makes you think it will "cause damage to hamfests and
> > deplete them of the few remaining 'vintage' computers"?  The VCF *is* a
> > place to go find old computers.  Do you actually think people would go to
> > hamfests and scour them for all the old computer crap they can find just
> > to bring it to the VCF and hawk it for eBay prices?  You fool!
> 
> The VCF is also a place to draw the attention of non-hackers to
> computer collecting; while the prices of older equipment at VCF may
> not be terribly high, in terms of e-bay pricing or affordability for
> most of us here, I recon that they're still far higher than they were
> at hamfests several years ago.
> 
> > Are you therefore meaning to imply that the VCF is in fact detrimental to
> > the hobby of collecting and perserving computers and their history?  You
> > idiot!
> 
> No, I neither said nor implied that.  Now, who is the idiot?  Perhaps
> you'll learn to wait for answers before jumping to conclusions.  Yes
> Sellam, evolution is possible for all creatures, even you. :-) What I
> was implying is that it's harmful for those of us who like to collect
> and hack interesting finds that we pick up for a few dollars -
> treasures that were someone else's trash, you might say.  In years
> past, before computer, and other vintage electronics, collecting
> became fashionable, some of us were able to spend less than US$100 and
> fill up a large station wagon with all sorts of computers, plus a few
> bits of Heathkit equipment, various electronic components, some audio
> stuff with tubes (valves), and then come home to find lots more
> interesing old computer finds lurking for-sale on Usenet, often for
> the cost of shipping.

There are still 'bargains' to be had, but they are certainly getting
fewer, although I did pick up a Canon Cat last Saturday for only $5.  
But certainly the vast supplies of S-100 pieces and most 8-bit stuff 
has almost completely disappeared.  Off to the Elephant's Graveyard, I 
guess.  
						 - don
 
> We didn't collect just for the sake of collecting or squirreling away
> equipment, for future profit, to complete a "collection," etc.  We
> collected to have more fun toys to take apart, examine, repair,
> restore and hack.  
> 
> I sense that this group is composed of two different groups of people,
> who still have something in common - a desire to obtain and preserve
> older equipment.  We just have differnt ideas as to how we go about
> it, the "serious collectors" and shelf-liners who are more interested
> in history and unmodified equipment verses the hackers who preserve
> equipment through curiosity, tinkering and reverse engineering and are
> responsible for the actual preservation of working systems.  The
> former go around thinking "what's it worth" the later "neat, a new toy
> to hack!"  I could expand upon this further, but I haven't the time
> tonight, alas.
> 
> Perhaps we can have a discussion here about this without it turning
> into a flamefest.
> 
> > Is there a LART big enough to shut you up once and for all?  I'm looking
> > for it.
> 
> Good luck!  By the way Sellam, something tells me that you're having a
> truly interesting month, one that will grow all the more "interesting"
> experiences as it progresses, that you may even learn something from
> by a strange twist of karma.  Having fun yet?
> 
> > YOU COMPLETE MORON!
> 
> Oh stop looking into the mirror and muttering your thoughts to this
> group as you do so, before you risk further embarassment. ;-)  
> 
> All that said, I think that there's still probably much more that we
> agree about regarding older computers than we disagree about, and,
> while I don't like some things about VCF, I think that in some ways
> it's been quite beneficial to computer preservation, particularly from
> a historical perspective, as it helps to draw people together with a
> common interest who can share their knowledge of various machines, so,
> you see that I have mixed feelings about VCF, not all good, not all bad.
> 
> I see and understand your perspective; can you see and understand
> mine?
> 
> Have a good night, and, I do wish you good luck with collecting and
> preserving, and with having fun with these activities.   
> 
> --
> Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of
> All Rights Reserved            Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to
> rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like
> http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd   a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


From whdawson at mlynk.com  Thu Oct 12 16:32:58 2000
From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: 48v dc power
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010121023420.21403-100000@lanshark.lanminds.com>
Message-ID: <001d01c03493$fded5440$999e72d1@cobweb.net>

-> > > The worst problem about running power directly from the
-> car's supply is
-> > > that it's not a clean, steady stream of juice.
-> Computers run best on clean
-> > > power, and a car's power is anything but.  Hence, the
-> deal of being grossly
-> > That's an understatement; voltage can fluctuate
-> > between 8 and 15V as different subsystems in the car
-> > are turned on; then there are spikes in excess of 100V
-> > induced by different systems; and then, if your battery
-> > contacts are less than perfect you can have 30VAC, rectified
-> > (or not, if the rectifiers fail in a particularly nasty
-> > mode!) from the alternator.


Reminds me of the time I took a 50 mile trip to my brothers in the Rover
88.  When I arrived, it was dark, but all the lights on the Rover seemed
brighter than usual.  Opening the hood, I noticed that the battery was
somewhat swollen.  For some now forgotten stupid reason, I decided to
lift the positive terminal while the Rover was still running.  Every
bulb on the Rover immediately exploded, although no other electrical
damage was done.  Seems the alternator rectifiers went bad, which
damaged the regulator contacts. It was putting out well over 100 volts.
The battery was merely acting as a load, and when I removed the positive
terminal, POW!

Bill


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Thu Oct 12 16:40:37 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: VMS/VAX/Alpha questions...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20001012165011.015fdd18@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Oct 12, 2000 04:50:11 PM
Message-ID: <200010122140.OAA02530@shell1.aracnet.com>

> Lemme simplify: Does a VAX or older Alpha box *have* to have DEC drives
> installed in them for OpenVMS to work or for the boxes to actually
> recognize the drive (a la Compaq, Apple & the like) or can I slap in an IBM
> 2 gigger and have it work?

Ah, now there is a question we can work with :^)  Let's see....  In the past
I've used non-DEC drives on my one AlphaStation 200 4/233 running OpenVMS,
the other is still using a non-DEC drive.

Currently the *only* non-DEC drive in my cluster (except those that came in
storageworks cannisters) is in a VAXstation 4000/VLC, and I've got major
problems with it at the moment as a bunch of the files have bad blocks :^(

> [ The largest drive I can find for sale (reasonably) from DEC is a 426Meg,
> and I was hoping for bigger, but if a 2Gig IBM (read: non-DEC) drive won't
> be recognized, it's not going to do me a hill of beans worth of good... ]
> 
> Does DEC say: "You'll run that RZ25 & *Be Happy About It*", or can I run
> non-DEC rommed hard drives just fine?
> 
> RZ or not RZ, *that* is the question. ;-)

The answer, is hopelessly vague.  It depends.  It might work, it might not
work.  OpenVMS and the hardware are only tested with specific drives, as a
result the drives may or may not work.  The good news is that OpenVMS V7.2
is a lot less touchy about this than say VAX/VMS V5.5.

So, you see the correct answer is, try it and find out.  Which unfortunatly
isn't the one you want trust me I understand as I've looked into upgrading
my server to a U2W SCSI controller and Ultra160 drives.  As a hobbyist I'm
not sure I want to risk buying drives that might not work.

			Zane

From mlnealey at earthlink.net  Thu Oct 12 16:37:13 2000
From: mlnealey at earthlink.net (Mike Nealey)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: Alphastation 255 question..
References: <200010122033.NAA29516@shell1.aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <39E62F09.3EEC999D@earthlink.net>

Hi Zane,

> (always check what memory costs before buying a Alpha) better than OpenVMS,
> and way better than Tru64, that system is now running VMS without DECwindows
> installed and is my server).
>

I think I might spend the money and get the True64Unix software for this box. It's a
little steep in price but I've wanted a True64Unix box for awhile. I will however get
the Alpha VMS CD from the Hobbyist program just in case I get a wild hair. By the
way, is the Compaq True64Unix offer the same as others, you pay for the media and
shipping and the license is free? If so...anyone interested in making a copy of their
T64U for the cost of media and shipping? It can't be as much as Compaq wants.


> > I guess I'll experiment some more...
>
> Since it sounds like you're most concerned about cosmetics I'd just leave
> the floppy disconnected and keep your eye out for a cheap RX23L.
>
>                         Zane

That's probably the best approach. :^)

Thanks!
Mike N.


From jrasite at eoni.com  Thu Oct 12 16:59:30 2000
From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: Obsolete tapes available
References: <39E5F024.34521389@earthlink.net> <v04020a36b60bbb970798@[192.168.1.5]>
Message-ID: <39E63433.82AEC59E@eoni.com>

A few months back I purchased a few tapes for an old SCSI tape drive I
picked up.  Unfortunately, when they arrived, they had no resemblence
to what I needed.  They might be of some use to one of you...

They are: 

3M DC 600A 60 mbyte cartridges
Factory sealed.

If anyone is interested, I've got ten of them.

Please contact me off-list at: <mailto:jrasite@eoni.com>

Now back to our regularly scheduled debates!

Thx

Jim Arnott

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Oct 12 16:45:02 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: 48v dc power
In-Reply-To: <001d01c03493$fded5440$999e72d1@cobweb.net> from "Bill Dawson" at Oct 12, 0 05:32:58 pm
Message-ID: <m13jqA0-000IyHC@p850ug1>

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Oct 12 16:56:22 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: Commodore 1571 drive (and C128 CP/M)
Message-ID: <m13jqKx-000IyHC@p850ug1>

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Oct 12 16:58:47 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: Floppy drive spindle screws
Message-ID: <m13jqNG-000IyHC@p850ug1>

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From foo at siconic.com  Thu Oct 12 16:13:08 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: NEC APC available
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20001012093924.028a0a30@pc>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010121411360.4291-100000@siconic.com>

On Thu, 12 Oct 2000, John Foust wrote:

> Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 00:14:51 -0700 (PDT)
> From: pppmjs <pppmjs@yahoo.com>
> Subject: An Old Computer
> To: jfoust@threedee.com
> 
>  I have a functional NEC Advanced Personal Computer
> (APC) (1983) It runs with 2 - 8" floppies. Believe to
> have been built to run/assist by BridgePort CNC
> machines. Operating system is Dos 2.1 Have operating
> manuals & guides. (Got it to boot, but didn't get no
> further, as I'm not sure what some of the disks are.)

This is the same computer that I thought would read those disks from
Guatemala.  I have CP/M for it that I can make a copy of if anyone
actually ends up with this.

> I need to possibly get something out of this
> system...say $125-$150,or more if it's possibly a rare
> find(?), if in fact it's worth anything, I really
> don't know, but believe it would be.

Wishful thinking.  Offer to pay for shipping.  There really is not
anything particularly special about this machine.

Sellam                                International Man of Intrigue and Danger
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...

                       VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
               San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
                    See http://www.vintage.org for details!



From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu  Thu Oct 12 17:45:21 2000
From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: Commodore 1571 drive (and C128 CP/M)
In-Reply-To: <m13jqKx-000IyHC@p850ug1> from Tony Duell at "Oct 12, 0 10:56:22 pm"
Message-ID: <200010122245.PAA19596@stockholm.ptloma.edu>

> I've just obtained a Commodore 1571 disk drive (double sided 5.25"). I've 
> pulled the case and tested the PSU -- it's on a separate PCB with a 
> plug-in output lead and the voltages are marked on the board. And being a 
> simple linear PSU with 3 terminal regulators it doesn't even need a dummy 
> load.
> 
> Anyway, the PSU is fine. I reconnected it to the rest of the drive and 
> turned it on again. Both frontpanel LEDs came on and the spindle motor 
> started. A little later the 'Drive' LED turned off and a little after 
> that the spindle stopped. This is what I believe should happen (according 
> to the user manual), but should the head restore to track 0? It doesn't. 
> Do I have a fault to find?

I don't *think* so, but the proof of the pudding is, can you get a directory
out of it? Commodore drives are pretty resilient.

-- 
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
 Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- I used to miss my dad, but then my aim improved. ---------------------------

From foo at siconic.com  Thu Oct 12 16:34:44 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
In-Reply-To: <005001c03476$7f930260$c834d986@wkchafauradon.beckman.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010121423360.4291-100000@siconic.com>

On Thu, 12 Oct 2000, FBA wrote:

> The seller I was refering to had the biggest booth of all and the most
> inflated prices I have ever seen. For reference the name started with
> "Computer" and ended in "Jones", That's the guy who didn't want to sell at
> the VCF. I don't know where he comes from but I have never ever ever seen a
> dealer in used "crap" refusing to bargain. And that really pissed me off
> (here you go Sellam another example of where cussing IS appropriate). That's
> the dude I hope had to take his load back home. He's a buisness and should
> know better. If he wants "ebay prices" (TM) for his stuff, he should sell on
> ebay or out of his store or whaterver hole in the wall he normally operates
> from. A hobby meeting is for hobbyists where you unload stuff you don't want
> anymore and sell at a reasonable price so you're not out of pocket. If a
> business wants to participate, they should undrstand the spirit of the event
> and be willing to play by the rules.

I hear you loud and clear.  My problem is in choosing between filling the
vendor area with stuff and generating more income for the enterprise vs.
turning away vendors who may potentially cause problems.  Let's see, money
vs. empty space, money vs. empty space, hmmmm... :)

The only thing I pre-screen about a vendor is what they're selling, to
make sure they are sticking to the rule (10 years or older, computer stuff
only).  I have considered making suggestions to them about pricing but I
didn't feel it was my place to dictate how they should run their business.

However, I think next year I will make suggestions to the vendors that may
result in increased sales for them.

Overall the pricing of stuff at the VCF is reasonable, with the occasional
exception from particularly hard-headed sellers, as well as the occasional
bargain.  But like with anything, haggling skills are useful.

Some of the best deals were at the consignment table, which unfortunately
wasn't as organized as last year's.  I plan to improve this considerably
next year and get even more stuff there.  The consignment section actually
is a haggle zone.  The prices you see on the items are not absolutely set,
and are usually low to begin with.

Sellam                                International Man of Intrigue and Danger
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...

                       VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
               San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
                    See http://www.vintage.org for details!



From foo at siconic.com  Thu Oct 12 16:37:43 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
In-Reply-To: <20001012180754.20914.qmail@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010121435010.4291-100000@siconic.com>

On 12 Oct 2000, Eric Smith wrote:

> > and some pricepushing dealer went home with their entire stock ?
> 
> Yup.  Every time I walked by said dealer, I muttered loudly, "priced
> to stay."
> 
> Rumor has it that said deal dumpstered a bunch of stuff after VCF 3
> rather than hauling it back.  I wonder if this happened again?

Rumor has it that this happened again at VCF 4.0.  Rumor also has it that
a certain Bavarian recovered much of this.  Rumor has it that a lot of
this crap is sitting in my garage and had better be finding its way to its
new home at some point in the near future or rumor will have it that it
will find its way back to the nearest dumpster :)

Just so nobody feels like they missed out on a goldmine, rumor has it that
there wasn't anything particularly spectacular thrown out. 

Sellam                                International Man of Intrigue and Danger
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...

                       VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
               San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
                    See http://www.vintage.org for details!



From healyzh at aracnet.com  Thu Oct 12 17:42:54 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: Alphastation 255 question..
In-Reply-To: <39E62F09.3EEC999D@earthlink.net> from "Mike Nealey" at Oct 12, 2000 02:37:13 PM
Message-ID: <200010122242.PAA07577@shell1.aracnet.com>

> I think I might spend the money and get the True64Unix software for this box. It's a
> little steep in price but I've wanted a True64Unix box for awhile. I will however get
> the Alpha VMS CD from the Hobbyist program just in case I get a wild hair. By the
> way, is the Compaq True64Unix offer the same as others, you pay for the media and
> shipping and the license is free? If so...anyone interested in making a copy of their
> T64U for the cost of media and shipping? It can't be as much as Compaq wants.

IIRC (it's been almost a year), the Tru64 Hobbyist program is such that you
order the *kit* from Compaq.  I believe the kit includes the firmware CD,
Tru64 V5.0, one or two CD's of other software and permanent Hobbyist license 
PAK's.

Beware, I found that it was painful to run Netscape on a Tru64 system with
96MB.  Tru64 seems to be even more of a memory pig than OpenVMS.

			Zane

From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Thu Oct 12 17:50:48 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: 48v dc power
Message-ID: <003601c0349f$28435680$220f9a8d@ajp166>

From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) <cisin@xenosoft.com>


>CLOSE. But, ...  Remove the diodes completely from an alternator.
Select
>pulleys for correct ratio, and simply maintain a steady engine speed to
>provide 3600 RPM at the alternator shaft.  Now you have 60Hz 3 phase
>power.  Adjust the voltage, and run minis and mainframes.
>You'll need to drive where there is little traffic to maintain that
>constant engine speed.


leave the diodes in and don't use them, bring out the power on leads
from the other side of the diodes for AC.  the rectified power can then
be used for reedback regulation of the AC.  did this years ago for
a ~1kw tube TX worked very well.  it was cheaper than buying a
HV alternator (120/230v).

the auto system if well maintained can do just fine power wise.
resonable power is around 3-500W at the high side.

Allison




From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Thu Oct 12 17:58:27 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: VMS/VAX/Alpha questions...
Message-ID: <006f01c034a0$9c77ea10$220f9a8d@ajp166>

From: healyzh@aracnet.com <healyzh@aracnet.com>
To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Date: Thursday, October 12, 2000 6:20 PM
Subject: Re: VMS/VAX/Alpha questions...


>Currently the *only* non-DEC drive in my cluster (except those that came
in
>storageworks cannisters) is in a VAXstation 4000/VLC, and I've got major
>problems with it at the moment as a bunch of the files have bad blocks
:^(


I've run a great mix of nonDEC SCSI drives on the 3100s I have and the
CMD interfaced MVII.  For MFM I've tried everything I have most are
smaller
than RD53s though but they worked.

>> Does DEC say: "You'll run that RZ25 & *Be Happy About It*", or can I
run
>> non-DEC rommed hard drives just fine?
>>
>> RZ or not RZ, *that* is the question. ;-)
>
>The answer, is hopelessly vague.  It depends.  It might work, it might
not
>work.  OpenVMS and the hardware are only tested with specific drives, as
a
>result the drives may or may not work.  The good news is that OpenVMS
V7.2
>is a lot less touchy about this than say VAX/VMS V5.5.


Depends what you have and what interfaces, usually it works fine.

>So, you see the correct answer is, try it and find out.  Which
unfortunatly


best answer.

>isn't the one you want trust me I understand as I've looked into
upgrading
>my server to a U2W SCSI controller and Ultra160 drives.  As a hobbyist
I'm
>not sure I want to risk buying drives that might not work.


Finding a U2Wscsi for a nonPCI VAX or ALPHA would be real tough.
Though  Qantum fireball (scsi-II) at 5.1gb worked fine when I tried it
as a non boot disk on the M76 running VMS7.2.  I tried it for laughs
as I was pulled from the server (p133!).


Allison


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Thu Oct 12 18:09:02 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:53 2005
Subject: VMS/VAX/Alpha questions...
Message-ID: <00ea01c034a2$0533c8c0$220f9a8d@ajp166>

From: Roger Merchberger <zmerch@30below.com>


>I do know about the VAXstation boot drive limitations of 1Gig... For the
>price, I like the 1Giggers better, but they won't do me crap if the VAX
>won't recognize 'em... ;-)


First research that as it only affects certain boxen and only for VMS
crash dumps.

>(I've got a few DEC drives laying around, so I've not tried any non-DEC
>drives in my VAXen yet...)


Try them anyway.  They will work most likely.

Besides a 1gb drive is lots of space as VMS isn't a pig like NT or Win2k.

Allison



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Oct 12 18:33:33 2000
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: 48v dc power
In-Reply-To: <m13jmzh-000IyHC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010121623050.21989-100000@lanshark.lanminds.com>

On Thu, 12 Oct 2000, Tony Duell wrote:
> > On Thu, 12 Oct 2000, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:
> > [running comptuers from an automobile]
> > > Adding major mass of batteries can sink much of the variation.  
> > > Power CAN be cleaned up.

THAT part was mine.  But the discussion of modifying the front end to
bring out a drive shaft was from Mr. Davis:
> > It seems that the obvious solution is being overlooked.  Modify the
> > radiator so that it has about a 2" to 3" hole in the middle (which

Then, both Tony and I pointed out the obvious solution of using the PTO:
> Real vehicles [1] have assorted ways to drive mechanical accesories, like 
> a power take off option that fits into the transfer gearbox. Now, add 
> that, add a sensibly-sized generator, and have a proper in-car computer.
> [1] do I have to say 'Land Rover' :-)

REAL vehicle/Land Rover is redundant.  Surely there can't be anyone who
doesn't already know that.  But most of us drive the automotive equivalent
of a Windoze box.  I wrote the book on Honda car repair [literally], but
I'm currently driving a 4WD Toyota van.  I sometimes miss my old Jeep
FC170 (Forward Control, front is like a van), that had a real PTO, a real
transfer case, a real overdrive; but not the right shift linkage, so
there were 4 levers to move when shifting (16 forward speeds, 4 reverse).

> More seriously (but only slightly more seriously), why not add a second 
> alternator next to the standard one (there's probably enoug room to 
> kludge something in and run an extra drive belt to a pulley piggy-backed 
> onto the existing one). Use that to charge a second battery (which 
> needn't be that large). Yes, you've still got the spikes from the 
> alternator to worry about, but at least you don't have the electical 
> spikes put there by the ignition system, assorted motors, etc.

Allison makes a good point:
if you tap the power both before AND after the diodes, then you have three
phase AC, AND DC.


Also, change out the decades old spark plugs and plug wires - those can
create a lot of RF? noise.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred        cisin@xenosoft.com


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Thu Oct 12 18:36:06 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: Alphastation 255 question..
Message-ID: <010501c034a6$39aa9530$220f9a8d@ajp166>

From: healyzh@aracnet.com <healyzh@aracnet.com>


>
>Beware, I found that it was painful to run Netscape on a Tru64 system
with
>96MB.  Tru64 seems to be even more of a memory pig than OpenVMS.


VMS isn't a memory pig.  Alpha however was aimed at big apps and isn't
as byte efficient as VAX so it tends to consume 2x-4x the ram.   The
design
goal of Alpha  was big address space for even bigger apps like gigabyte
or even terabyte sized databases.

A VAX with 64-128 mb is a big (memory wise) machine.  Besides 7.2 runs
just fine in the MVII with 9mb!

Allison


From jfoust at threedee.com  Thu Oct 12 18:39:06 2000
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: NEC APC available
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010121411360.4291-100000@siconic.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.0.20001012093924.028a0a30@pc>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001012182946.02872900@pc>

At 02:13 PM 10/12/00 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote:
>> I need to possibly get something out of this
>> system...say $125-$150,or more if it's possibly a rare
>> find(?), if in fact it's worth anything, I really
>> don't know, but believe it would be.
>
>Wishful thinking.  Offer to pay for shipping.  There really is not
>anything particularly special about this machine.

Yes, I already have one, too.  It turns out the guy was 
local (!) and he claims to have found someone else to 
pick it up.  I don't know if he actually sold it.  

Personally, I'm in a throw-away mood as opposed to a
collection mood.  I tossed 3" x 3" x 25" of old clone
8088 through 486 PCs and cases away last Tuesday.

My mind kept running the mantra "They will never be uncommon 
or rare or all that interesting."  I saved some IBM brand 
PCs of each generation, a hardcard, and a few others.  
I haven't even made my way to the pile of monitors yet.

I coalesced a box of Pentium 50-166 Mhz era motherboards,
some brand-new, and for heaven's sake, they would barely 
fetch a few bucks on eBay.  My other mantra was a friend's
rule that if you can't sell it on eBay, throw it out.
http://www.freeboxen.com/ looks interesting, but this
stuff is hardly worth the cost of shipping.

I wish I would've gotten the Milwaukee PDP-11/45 the other
day, though.  I think my e-mail was first to reach the guy, 
but someone else went the extra mile to pick up the phone to
arrange pick-up, so they got it.

- John


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Thu Oct 12 18:49:43 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: VMS/VAX/Alpha questions...
In-Reply-To: <006f01c034a0$9c77ea10$220f9a8d@ajp166> from "ajp166" at Oct 12, 2000 06:58:27 PM
Message-ID: <200010122349.QAA13071@shell1.aracnet.com>

Allison wrote: 
> Finding a U2Wscsi for a nonPCI VAX or ALPHA would be real tough.
> Though  Qantum fireball (scsi-II) at 5.1gb worked fine when I tried it
> as a non boot disk on the M76 running VMS7.2.  I tried it for laughs
> as I was pulled from the server (p133!).

Finding a U2W-SCSI interface for a Non-PCI VAX or Alpha would be impossible
as far as I know, and since there aren't any PCI VAXen....  Sort of like
trying to find a 100Mbit interface for a non-PCI VMS box, namely it might be
possible, but you won't like the price.

			Zane

From at258 at osfn.org  Thu Oct 12 18:56:23 2000
From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: 48v dc power
In-Reply-To: <m13jmzh-000IyHC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.1001012195418.6325E-100000@osfn.org>

On Thu, 12 Oct 2000, Tony Duell wrote:

> Real vehicles [1] have assorted ways to drive mechanical accesories, like 
> a power take off option that fits into the transfer gearbox. Now, add 
> that, add a sensibly-sized generator, and have a proper in-car computer.
> 
> [1] do I have to say 'Land Rover' :-)
> 
> More seriously (but only slightly more seriously), why not add a second 
> alternator next to the standard one (there's probably enoug room to 
> kludge something in and run an extra drive belt to a pulley piggy-backed 
> onto the existing one). Use that to charge a second battery (which 
> needn't be that large). Yes, you've still got the spikes from the 
> alternator to worry about, but at least you don't have the electical 
> spikes put there by the ignition system, assorted motors, etc.

I think I'd prefer a nice little diesel.  FC's have more room in the back 
for rack mounting, though.  did they come uuith 2.5's or V-8's?

And, are PDP-11's positively earthed?

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Oct 12 19:00:02 2000
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: OT: alternators (was: 48v dc power
In-Reply-To: <m13jqA0-000IyHC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010121653400.21989-100000@lanshark.lanminds.com>

On Thu, 12 Oct 2000, Tony Duell wrote:
> Getting back to alternators, am I the only person who fault-finds them to 
> component level rather than getting an exchange unit. Last time the 
> alternator failed, I pulled it to bits, replaced the regulator/brushbox 
> assembly (the real fault was worn-out brushes but nobody would sell me 
> just the brush) and stuck it back together....
> 
> New alternator (no exchange on this model) = \pounds 196 + tax
> New regulator/brushes = \pounds 15.00 (and I know the alternator is 
> assembled properly...)

I used to be able to get (from the local Honda dealer) brushes, bearings,
and diodes!
But he also had a big pile of vrtually new alternators that he sold me for
$5 each that had been changed out in favor of a different one for dealer
installed Civic air-conditioning.

Those worked fine as replacements, as well as being plentiful enough to be
able to play around and experiment.  I burned one up trying to power a
circular saw.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred        cisin@xenosoft.com


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Oct 12 19:10:31 2000
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: 48v dc power
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.1001012195418.6325E-100000@osfn.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010121705070.21989-100000@lanshark.lanminds.com>

On Thu, 12 Oct 2000, Merle K. Peirce wrote:
> I think I'd prefer a nice little diesel.  FC's have more room in the back 
> for rack mounting, though.  did they come uuith 2.5's or V-8's?

My '59 Jeep FC170 had a small flathead 6.  A lot of people swapped other
engines into them.  It had a 9ft box, but was overall shorter than
shortbed pickups.  The Dana 44? rear axle was very sturdy, but the
suspension and brakes weren't real happy with more than a ton of load.  
And a ton to the rear of the rear axle would take the weight off of the
front.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred        cisin@xenosoft.com


From at258 at osfn.org  Thu Oct 12 19:15:56 2000
From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: 48v dc power
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010121705070.21989-100000@lanshark.lanminds.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.1001012201511.6325I-100000@osfn.org>

On Thu, 12 Oct 2000, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:

I as actually thinking of an LR FC...

> On Thu, 12 Oct 2000, Merle K. Peirce wrote:
> > I think I'd prefer a nice little diesel.  FC's have more room in the back 
> > for rack mounting, though.  did they come uuith 2.5's or V-8's?
> 
> My '59 Jeep FC170 had a small flathead 6.  A lot of people swapped other
> engines into them.  It had a 9ft box, but was overall shorter than
> shortbed pickups.  The Dana 44? rear axle was very sturdy, but the
> suspension and brakes weren't real happy with more than a ton of load.  
> And a ton to the rear of the rear axle would take the weight off of the
> front.
> 
> --
> Grumpy Ol' Fred        cisin@xenosoft.com
> 
> 

M. K. Peirce
Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc.
215 Shady Lea Road,
North Kingstown, RI 02852

"Casta est qui nemo rogavit."
              
              - Ovid


From oliv555 at arrl.net  Thu Oct 12 19:37:09 2000
From: oliv555 at arrl.net (no)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: VMS/VAX/Alpha questions...
References: <3.0.1.32.20001012140750.015fdd18@mail.30below.com>
	 <39E5F024.34521389@earthlink.net> <3.0.1.32.20001012165011.015fdd18@mail.30below.com>
Message-ID: <39E65935.DFFC92A9@arrl.net>



Roger Merchberger wrote:
> 
> Rumor has it that Zane H. Healy may have mentioned these words:
> 
> >Now what was the question?
> 
> Lemme simplify: Does a VAX or older Alpha box *have* to have DEC drives
> installed in them for OpenVMS to work or for the boxes to actually
> recognize the drive (a la Compaq, Apple & the like) or can I slap in an IBM
> 2 gigger and have it work?
> 
> [ The largest drive I can find for sale (reasonably) from DEC is a 426Meg,
> and I was hoping for bigger, but if a 2Gig IBM (read: non-DEC) drive won't
> be recognized, it's not going to do me a hill of beans worth of good... ]
> 
> Does DEC say: "You'll run that RZ25 & *Be Happy About It*", or can I run
> non-DEC rommed hard drives just fine?
> 
> RZ or not RZ, *that* is the question. ;-)
> 
> 

Unless you require huge capacity, I've found the Quantum Pro/Lightnings
730mb work great in my VLC and M60. And they can be had for fairly
attractive
prices on eBay.

A plus with the PRO series is they are among coolest running drives.
Big improvement over the scalding hot Barracuda I had been running in
the VLC.

Nick Oliviero

From oliv555 at arrl.net  Thu Oct 12 19:52:21 2000
From: oliv555 at arrl.net (no)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: Intel 310   286 box
References: <39E5B333.8020981C@home.com>
Message-ID: <39E65CC5.C3261492@arrl.net>



ip500 wrote:
> 
>         Is any one privy to the workings of an the Intel 310? The one I have is
> missing a monitor and keyboard and hookup is not immediatly obvious to
> me. Also has labeled ports on the back for ethernet, console,
> cube. I'm assuming it was the control box for my newly acquired iPSC/1
> system. This one is a model "PSYP310", 286/12 8 mhz, 1 meg mem, 140 mb,
> 45 mb streaming tape & a floppy drive.
>         Any info appreciated...manual or copy greatly! appreciated....
> Craig


We still have about 4 of these 310's in operation here which we are in
the
process of retiring. But, unlike Pats, ours run the iRMX OS. There was
an active
user group for these (iRUG ?) but don't know if its still a functioning
group.

Intel put out a fairly bulky manual for each of the boards in these
systems, would
be interesting to know which are included in yours.

Just getting ready for a trip but will try to get back to you on Monday
if I can
come up with some extra manuals. Post the board complement when you get
a chance.

Nick Oliviero

From jhfine at idirect.com  Thu Oct 12 19:56:20 2000
From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: Obsolete tapes available
References: <39E5F024.34521389@earthlink.net> <v04020a36b60bbb970798@[192.168.1.5]> <39E63433.82AEC59E@eoni.com>
Message-ID: <39E65DB4.14FC60BA@idirect.com>

>Jim Arnott wrote:

> A few months back I purchased a few tapes for an old SCSI tape drive I
> picked up.  Unfortunately, when they arrived, they had no resemblence
> to what I needed.  They might be of some use to one of you...
> 3M DC 600A 60 mbyte cartridges Factory sealed.
> If anyone is interested, I've got ten of them.

Jerome Fine replies:

In case anyone is interested, the DEC TK25 tape drive used these tapes.
DEC also sold them without the DC600A label as a TK25 tape, but probably
3M made most of them.  I have many more, but will still be using them for
a while (maybe).  If someone can use them, e-mail me in 6 months.


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Thu Oct 12 20:03:29 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: Alphastation 255 question..
In-Reply-To: <010501c034a6$39aa9530$220f9a8d@ajp166> from "ajp166" at Oct 12, 2000 07:36:06 PM
Message-ID: <200010130103.SAA18238@shell1.aracnet.com>

Allison wrote:
> From: healyzh@aracnet.com <healyzh@aracnet.com>
> 
> >Beware, I found that it was painful to run Netscape on a Tru64 system
> with
> >96MB.  Tru64 seems to be even more of a memory pig than OpenVMS.
> 
> 
> VMS isn't a memory pig.  Alpha however was aimed at big apps and isn't
> as byte efficient as VAX so it tends to consume 2x-4x the ram.   The
> design
> goal of Alpha  was big address space for even bigger apps like gigabyte
> or even terabyte sized databases.
> 
> A VAX with 64-128 mb is a big (memory wise) machine.  Besides 7.2 runs
> just fine in the MVII with 9mb!

I think you know what I mean :^)  The system in question is an Alpha, and on 
Alpha's OpenVMS is a memory pig!  A quick (SHO CLUS) shows that my 24MB
VAXstation 4000/VLC is sitting at 60% memory usage, the AlphaStation 500/333 
with 96MB that doesn't have DECwindows loaded on the system is sitting at   
69%, unfortunatly I don't have either of the workstations with 112MB up at  
the moment as but running DECwindows I believe they'll be at about 80%,
IIRC.  Of course my main system is only at 20% :^)                  

I understand why OpenVMS on an Alpha uses so much memory as opposed to on a 
VAX, however, the fact remains, it's a memory hog, and like I said based on
my very limited Tru64 experience it seems even worse on the exact same
hardware.

			Zane


From whdawson at mlynk.com  Thu Oct 12 20:40:28 2000
From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: 48v dc power
In-Reply-To: <m13jqA0-000IyHC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <000001c034b6$9135faa0$5e9e72d1@cobweb.net>

-> > Reminds me of the time I took a 50 mile trip to my brothers in the
Rover
-> > 88.  When I arrived, it was dark, but all the lights on the Rover
seemed
-> > brighter than usual.  Opening the hood, I noticed that the battery
was
-> > somewhat swollen.  For some now forgotten stupid reason, I decided
to
-> > lift the positive terminal while the Rover was still running.
Every
-> > bulb on the Rover immediately exploded, although no other
electrical
-> > damage was done.  Seems the alternator rectifiers went bad, which
->
-> Since when has a _real_ Rover 80 (i.e. a P4) had an alternator? The
shop
-> manual (yes, I have it...) shows a DC generator and electromagnetic
-> regulator...

1972 IIRC US Land Rover.  It had an alternator.  BTW, on several
occasions I did use the hand crank to start it.

Decided to part with it when it put a rod through the block without
warning.  Stuffed a rag in the hole to retain the oil and drive it home,
8 miles.  Rich man's toy over here.  Very expensive to maintain.  Also
got tired of replacing those soft axle shafts.

Bill



From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net  Thu Oct 12 22:46:07 2000
From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (Sue & Francois)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: Speaking of cubes
Message-ID: <001701c034c8$1f683340$0264a8c0@mediaone.net>

Hi,
This may be off topic but I just have to brag
I just received my cobalt cube today whoo hoo.
Its is not 10 years old yet but has just been made obsolete by SUN who
bought Cobalt a couple of weeks ago.
It's brand new never openned in the original box.
I just can't wait to setup my server. But I have to for now though.
That's it
Thank you for reading, you may return to your normal occupation now.

Francois



From tarsi at binhost.com  Thu Oct 12 20:52:15 2000
From: tarsi at binhost.com (Tarsi)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: NEC APC available
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20001012182946.02872900@pc>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010121411360.4291-100000@siconic.com>
 <4.3.2.7.0.20001012093924.028a0a30@pc>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001012205109.00b3bf00@binhost.com>


>
>8088 through 486 PCs and cases away last Tuesday.
>I coalesced a box of Pentium 50-166 Mhz era motherboards,
>some brand-new, and for heaven's sake, they would barely
>fetch a few bucks on eBay.

Goodness.  I love 486's.  I make them into very handy Linux boxen.  They 
and those motherboards are worth shipping to ME at least.

Tarsi
210



210-------------210-------------------210
VISIT OrangeCAM! http://orangenet.dhs.org/~cam/
	  tarsi@binhost.com
       http://orangenet.dhs.org
     http://tarsi.binhost.com
          http://www.foreverbeyond.org
210-------------210-------------------210


From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net  Thu Oct 12 22:54:07 2000
From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (Sue & Francois)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010121423360.4291-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <003501c034c9$3d349160$0264a8c0@mediaone.net>

>
> I hear you loud and clear.  My problem is in choosing between filling the
> vendor area with stuff and generating more income for the enterprise vs.
> turning away vendors who may potentially cause problems.  Let's see, money
> vs. empty space, money vs. empty space, hmmmm... :)

I trust your judjement and believe that you probably had very little choice,
I know whose side you're in.

>
> However, I think next year I will make suggestions to the vendors that may
> result in increased sales for them.

I would second and encourage suggestions to vendors about both merchandise
and pricing.

>
> Overall the pricing of stuff at the VCF is reasonable, with the occasional
> exception from particularly hard-headed sellers, as well as the occasional
> bargain.  But like with anything, haggling skills are useful.

Not with that guy :(

>
> Some of the best deals were at the consignment table, which unfortunately
> wasn't as organized as last year's.  I plan to improve this considerably
> next year and get even more stuff there.  The consignment section actually
> is a haggle zone.  The prices you see on the items are not absolutely set,
> and are usually low to begin with.

I lokked very hard at the 1501 nice machine and very attractively priced but
I already have 2 1500 and didn't want to deprive someone else from the joys
of ownership.

I loved the VCF and hope to be able to make it to many more.

Last but not least and I guess you probably don't hear it often enough

THANK YOU for starting a series of events that I hope will gain momentum.
Vive les VCFs

Francois


>
> Sellam                                International Man of Intrigue and
Danger
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> Looking for a six in a pile of nines...
>
>                        VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
>                San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
>                     See http://www.vintage.org for details!
>
>


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Thu Oct 12 20:59:49 2000
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: Speaking of cubes
In-Reply-To: Speaking of cubes (Sue & Francois)
References: <001701c034c8$1f683340$0264a8c0@mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <14822.27797.609494.969610@phaduka.neurotica.com>

On October 12, Sue & Francois wrote:
> This may be off topic but I just have to brag
> I just received my cobalt cube today whoo hoo.
> Its is not 10 years old yet but has just been made obsolete by SUN who
> bought Cobalt a couple of weeks ago.
> It's brand new never openned in the original box.
> I just can't wait to setup my server. But I have to for now though.
> That's it
> Thank you for reading, you may return to your normal occupation now.

  Wait a sec.  Something you said made me stop and think for a minute.
YOU, an individual, own a thing.  An action by a completely separate
group of individuals far far away have magically made the thing you
own *obsolete*?

  How is it that we, as a society, can have this happen?

         -Dave McGuire

From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Thu Oct 12 21:01:51 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: Alphastation 255 question..
Message-ID: <013b01c034ba$860ffcd0$220f9a8d@ajp166>

>> VMS isn't a memory pig.  Alpha however was aimed at big apps and isn't
>> as byte efficient as VAX so it tends to consume 2x-4x the ram.   The


>I think you know what I mean :^)  The system in question is an Alpha,
and on


See the comment I left in? Yes, I do know what you mean.

>Alpha's OpenVMS is a memory pig!  A quick (SHO CLUS) shows that my 24MB
>VAXstation 4000/VLC is sitting at 60% memory usage, the AlphaStation
500/333
>with 96MB that doesn't have DECwindows loaded on the system is sitting
at
>69%, unfortunatly I don't have either of the workstations with 112MB up
at
>the moment as but running DECwindows I believe they'll be at about 80%,
>IIRC.  Of course my main system is only at 20% :^)


An Alpha with 96mb is running faster than the VAX however with 24mb
so you get what you pay for.  However in the time frame when they were
both current that Alpha would likely have had 128mb minimum and likely
more and the vax would have been big at 32mb.

It's the difference between the byte oriented VAX and the Word orieneted
Alpha.

>I understand why OpenVMS on an Alpha uses so much memory as opposed to
on a
>VAX, however, the fact remains, it's a memory hog, and like I said based
on
>my very limited Tru64 experience it seems even worse on the exact same
>hardware.


Actually any os on Alpha will be bigger by 4x, it's the instruction
granularity
mostly and also the Alpha is actally less CISC than VAX. The payback is
the 64bit addressing and math.

Allison



From jrkeys at concentric.net  Thu Oct 12 21:13:53 2000
From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: Speaking of cubes
References: <001701c034c8$1f683340$0264a8c0@mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <01b301c034bb$3d1ccc00$c3711fd1@default>

Let me know when it's up and I will come out for a look see.
John Keys
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sue & Francois" <fauradon@mn.mediaone.net>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 10:46 PM
Subject: Speaking of cubes


> Hi,
> This may be off topic but I just have to brag
> I just received my cobalt cube today whoo hoo.
> Its is not 10 years old yet but has just been made obsolete by SUN who
> bought Cobalt a couple of weeks ago.
> It's brand new never openned in the original box.
> I just can't wait to setup my server. But I have to for now though.
> That's it
> Thank you for reading, you may return to your normal occupation now.
>
> Francois
>
>
>


From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net  Thu Oct 12 23:19:39 2000
From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (Sue & Francois)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: Obsolete? (Was: Re: Speaking of cubes)
References: <001701c034c8$1f683340$0264a8c0@mediaone.net> <14822.27797.609494.969610@phaduka.neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <004d01c034cc$ce3dc020$0264a8c0@mediaone.net>

Well... It's has been superceeded. And is (I believe) no longer available
for purchase.
>From a Market (note the capital M) point of view this piece of equipment is
obsolete. From an end user's point of view it's a treasure.
Plus I guess I wanted to be kinda on topic with bragging about obsolete
stuff that doesn't quite fit the charter.
With your train of though even a C64 or an IMSAI is not obsolete if they are
still being used by individuals, it doesn't matter that the company that
used to manufacture them is long gone. And obsolescence only comes after the
last user stop being one.
Hummm now it's my turn to "stop and think" (TM)...
So here's the real question what is the essence of obsolescence?
Francois

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave McGuire" <mcguire@neurotica.com>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 6:59 PM
Subject: Re: Speaking of cubes


> On October 12, Sue & Francois wrote:
> > This may be off topic but I just have to brag
> > I just received my cobalt cube today whoo hoo.
> > Its is not 10 years old yet but has just been made obsolete by SUN who
> > bought Cobalt a couple of weeks ago.
> > It's brand new never openned in the original box.
> > I just can't wait to setup my server. But I have to for now though.
> > That's it
> > Thank you for reading, you may return to your normal occupation now.
>
>   Wait a sec.  Something you said made me stop and think for a minute.
> YOU, an individual, own a thing.  An action by a completely separate
> group of individuals far far away have magically made the thing you
> own *obsolete*?
>
>   How is it that we, as a society, can have this happen?
>
>          -Dave McGuire


From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net  Thu Oct 12 23:20:26 2000
From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (Sue & Francois)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: Speaking of cubes
References: <001701c034c8$1f683340$0264a8c0@mediaone.net> <01b301c034bb$3d1ccc00$c3711fd1@default>
Message-ID: <005301c034cc$e9f823a0$0264a8c0@mediaone.net>

Ya betcha you'll know about it... and we'll do pizza too.
Francois

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John R. Keys Jr." <jrkeys@concentric.net>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 7:13 PM
Subject: Re: Speaking of cubes


> Let me know when it's up and I will come out for a look see.
> John Keys
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sue & Francois" <fauradon@mn.mediaone.net>
> To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 10:46 PM
> Subject: Speaking of cubes
> 
> 
> > Hi,
> > This may be off topic but I just have to brag
> > I just received my cobalt cube today whoo hoo.
> > Its is not 10 years old yet but has just been made obsolete by SUN who
> > bought Cobalt a couple of weeks ago.
> > It's brand new never openned in the original box.
> > I just can't wait to setup my server. But I have to for now though.
> > That's it
> > Thank you for reading, you may return to your normal occupation now.
> >
> > Francois
> >
> >
> >
> 


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Thu Oct 12 21:24:35 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: NEC APC available
Message-ID: <015001c034bd$41bf8e30$220f9a8d@ajp166>



>>8088 through 486 PCs and cases away last Tuesday.
>>I coalesced a box of Pentium 50-166 Mhz era motherboards,
>>some brand-new, and for heaven's sake, they would barely
>>fetch a few bucks on eBay.
>
>Goodness.  I love 486's.  I make them into very handy Linux boxen.  They
>and those motherboards are worth shipping to ME at least.


Same here.  Of  7 PCs I have 2 are 386/16s and only one a P166 the rest
are
various 486DX/33-->133s.  The 486s run NT4/sp4 workstation better than
W95!  However for fast, Minix is hard to beat(it's very small).  Linux as
in RH5.2
is good on them but Caldara Openlinux2.3 is a bit too fat for them.

Allison


From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com  Thu Oct 12 23:10:33 2000
From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: NEC APC available
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20001012182946.02872900@pc>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010121411360.4291-100000@siconic.com>
 <4.3.2.7.0.20001012093924.028a0a30@pc>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20001012210151.00ac9550@208.226.86.10>

At 06:39 PM 10/12/00 -0500, John wrote:
>Personally, I'm in a throw-away mood as opposed to a
>collection mood.  I tossed 3" x 3" x 25" of old clone
>8088 through 486 PCs and cases away last Tuesday.

Besides the obvious typo (unless you actually put the cases in the trash 
compactor first :-) I would say that you are metamorphosing.

I recently gave away all my Amiga stuff. And it wasn't because it wasn't 
good stuff. In fact it was the best stuff of everything, but it just wasn't 
germane to my collection.

I think its very similar to butterflies. You start as a collecting 
caterpillar and you take everything anyone offers you or you find. You can 
spend years doing this and you wrap yourself up in a collection much like a 
chrysalis. Finally, after being stuck in there for a while you "break out" 
and toss out a whole bunch of stuff and go deep on a particular thing (or 
things). And that becomes a very beautiful and "light" collection. Then 
depending on your mentality you either drink only nectar or you fall from 
grace and become a caterpillar again :-)

>My mind kept running the mantra "They will never be uncommon
>or rare or all that interesting."  I saved some IBM brand
>PCs of each generation, a hardcard, and a few others.
>I haven't even made my way to the pile of monitors yet.

They will of course be rare at some point. But its probably not worth 
paying the freight to store them. My Dad started collecting Cap guns (you 
know, made a bazillion and sold for a nickel in the 30's and 40's  but now 
they are "rare and collectible.") My kids may in fact feel about a Compag 
DeskPro 286 like I do about a PDP-8. We'll see. Recently my computer 
collection has been appreciating more rapidly than my stock portfolio!

>I coalesced a box of Pentium 50-166 Mhz era motherboards,
>some brand-new, and for heaven's sake, they would barely
>fetch a few bucks on eBay.  My other mantra was a friend's
>rule that if you can't sell it on eBay, throw it out.
>http://www.freeboxen.com/ looks interesting, but this
>stuff is hardly worth the cost of shipping.

Actually they are also fun to use to learn about things like the PCI bus 
where you aren't afraid to try something that might zorch the motherboard.

--Chuck



From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com  Thu Oct 12 23:21:08 2000
From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: Speaking of cubes
In-Reply-To: <14822.27797.609494.969610@phaduka.neurotica.com>; from mcguire@neurotica.com on Thu, Oct 12, 2000 at 09:59:49PM -0400
References: <001701c034c8$1f683340$0264a8c0@mediaone.net> <14822.27797.609494.969610@phaduka.neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <20001012212108.N17446@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com>

On Thu, Oct 12, 2000 at 09:59:49PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote:
>   Wait a sec.  Something you said made me stop and think for a minute.
> YOU, an individual, own a thing.  An action by a completely separate
> group of individuals far far away have magically made the thing you
> own *obsolete*?
> 
>   How is it that we, as a society, can have this happen?

I thought all old-tech afficionadoes knew the answer to that one...
if it still does everything you want it to do, then it's not obsolete.
And in any case obsolete doesn't mean the same thing as useless.

-- 
  _______                   Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD  ecloud@bigfoot.com
 (_  | |_)          http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud  kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org
 __) | | \________________________________________________________________
 Free long distance at http://www.bigredwire.com/me/RefTrack?id=USA063420

From eric at brouhaha.com  Fri Oct 13 00:18:42 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: Speaking of cubes
In-Reply-To: <14822.27797.609494.969610@phaduka.neurotica.com> (message from
	Dave McGuire on Thu, 12 Oct 2000 21:59:49 -0400 (EDT))
References: <001701c034c8$1f683340$0264a8c0@mediaone.net> <14822.27797.609494.969610@phaduka.neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <20001013051842.28707.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Francois wrote:
> I just received my cobalt cube today whoo hoo.
> Its is not 10 years old yet but has just been made obsolete by SUN who
> bought Cobalt a couple of weeks ago.
> 
Dave McGuire <mcguire@neurotica.com> wrote:
>   Wait a sec.  Something you said made me stop and think for a minute.
> YOU, an individual, own a thing.  An action by a completely separate
> group of individuals far far away have magically made the thing you
> own *obsolete*?
> 
>   How is it that we, as a society, can have this happen?

How is it that anyone can *prevent* this from happening?

From donm at cts.com  Fri Oct 13 00:47:59 2000
From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: Obsolete? (Was: Re: Speaking of cubes)
In-Reply-To: <004d01c034cc$ce3dc020$0264a8c0@mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SCO.4.20.0010122243490.26720-100000@crash.cts.com>



On Thu, 12 Oct 2000, Sue & Francois wrote:

> Well... It's has been superceeded. And is (I believe) no longer available
> for purchase.
> From a Market (note the capital M) point of view this piece of equipment is
> obsolete. From an end user's point of view it's a treasure.
> Plus I guess I wanted to be kinda on topic with bragging about obsolete
> stuff that doesn't quite fit the charter.
> With your train of though even a C64 or an IMSAI is not obsolete if they are
> still being used by individuals, it doesn't matter that the company that
> used to manufacture them is long gone. And obsolescence only comes after the
> last user stop being one.
> Hummm now it's my turn to "stop and think" (TM)...
> So here's the real question what is the essence of obsolescence?

It has always been my impression that obsolescence was the situation
when more advanced equipment that would do the job (and perhaps more) 
was available but the old equipment was still in productive use.  

Obsolete, however, was when the old equipment was in little or no use 
and had been superseded by the new.  
						 - don
 
> Francois
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave McGuire" <mcguire@neurotica.com>
> To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 6:59 PM
> Subject: Re: Speaking of cubes
> 
> 
> > On October 12, Sue & Francois wrote:
> > > This may be off topic but I just have to brag
> > > I just received my cobalt cube today whoo hoo.
> > > Its is not 10 years old yet but has just been made obsolete by SUN who
> > > bought Cobalt a couple of weeks ago.
> > > It's brand new never openned in the original box.
> > > I just can't wait to setup my server. But I have to for now though.
> > > That's it
> > > Thank you for reading, you may return to your normal occupation now.
> >
> >   Wait a sec.  Something you said made me stop and think for a minute.
> > YOU, an individual, own a thing.  An action by a completely separate
> > group of individuals far far away have magically made the thing you
> > own *obsolete*?
> >
> >   How is it that we, as a society, can have this happen?
> >
> >          -Dave McGuire
> 
> 


From jim at calico.litterbox.com  Fri Oct 13 00:58:06 2000
From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: Obsolete? (Was: Re: Speaking of cubes)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SCO.4.20.0010122243490.26720-100000@crash.cts.com> from "Don Maslin" at Oct 12, 2000 10:47:59 PM
Message-ID: <200010130558.XAA18598@calico.litterbox.com>

Seems to me Obselete is a marketing term, and therefore means very little in 
the field of machines.  In documentation it's valuable - this version obseletes
the older version because it has these revisions and is more accurate.  A 
technology can be obselete - tubes (valves) have been almost uniformly 
obseleted by semiconductors of various types.  Is an amplifier based on this
technology obselete?  Hard to say, does it still make a good sound?  Can you
still get parts for it?  I wouldn't call it obselete then.

> Obsolete, however, was when the old equipment was in little or no use 
> and had been superseded by the new.  
> 						 - don
>  


-- 
Jim Strickland
jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
                              BeOS Powered!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

From foo at siconic.com  Fri Oct 13 00:07:27 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: NEC APC available
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20001012182946.02872900@pc>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010122204310.4935-100000@siconic.com>

On Thu, 12 Oct 2000, John Foust wrote:

> Personally, I'm in a throw-away mood as opposed to a
> collection mood.  I tossed 3" x 3" x 25" of old clone
> 8088 through 486 PCs and cases away last Tuesday.
> 
> I coalesced a box of Pentium 50-166 Mhz era motherboards,
> some brand-new, and for heaven's sake, they would barely 
> fetch a few bucks on eBay.  My other mantra was a friend's
> rule that if you can't sell it on eBay, throw it out.

ACK!

As much as I hate having seemingly useless crap like this, I still refuse
to throw it out.  It's useful to SOMEONE.

What I'm recommending to people who have older PCs these days is to donate
them to your local community college electronics or engineering
departments.  I'm sure the students can use them for either spare parts or
as controllers for whatever projects they're working on.

Pentiums are still useful to schools and other organizations that take PCs
and refurbish them to donate to schools.  Try to find places like this
where you live.

If you still don't want to do even these simple things, in the very least
donate your crap to Goodwill.  Maybe someone will come across it and find
it useful.  In the very least you can take a tax writeoff.

Sellam                                International Man of Intrigue and Danger
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...

                       VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
               San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
                    See http://www.vintage.org for details!



From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com  Fri Oct 13 01:17:19 2000
From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: True colors
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001012231719.00958a30@pop.sttl.uswest.net>

	This one is truly in the "For what it's worth" department.

	Following the recent flamewar between Mr. Ismail and R.D. Davis, I
forwarded a (supposedly private) note with my concerns about it to the DNS
provider for the domain siconic.com (psyber.com). I did this because many
ISP's have explicit prohibitions in their terms of service against exactly
the kind of crap that was going down.

	Apparently, the tech person for psyber and Mr. Ismail are on pretty good
terms. I got the attached blurb this evening.

	If anyone on the list had any doubts as to what appears to be Mr. Ismail's
true nature, I suspect they will now be removed.

	Yes, I've filter-filed the entire 'siconic.com' domain out of my system.
I'm completely fed up with the temper tantrums of its owner.

	Attachment follows. In the interests of keeping the list on-topic, there
will be no further posts from me on this subject.

-=-=- <snip> -=-=-

>Delivered-To: kyrrin@mail-sttl.uswest.net
>Delivered-To: alias-bluefeathertech.com-kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com
>Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 22:49:04 -0700
>From: "Sellam Ismail" <dastar@siconic.com>
>To: "Bruce Lane" <kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com>
>Subject: Re: Terms of Service query
>Reply-to: dastar@siconic.com
>Priority: normal
>X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c)
>
>Bruce,
>
>You, too, are an ass.
>
>Mind your own business and leave my ex-ISP folks alone.  They have 
>better things to worry about other than your inane and childish whining.
>
>On 11 Oct 2000, at 22:53, Bruce Lane wrote:
>
>> Hi, Ted,
>> 
>> 	The owner of a domain you host (siconic.com/Sellam Ismail) has, in the
>> past 24 or so hours, been getting very abusive in both language and tone to
>> one of the users of a mailing list I'm a member of. The only thing the
>> other user did was to venture an opinion which Mr. Ismail apparently (and
>> violently) disagreed with.
>> 
>> 	The other listmember, one R.D. Davis, has been utterly polite, and calm of
>> tone, despite suggestions by Mr. Ismail to, among other things "shut the
>> fuck up." I saw absolutely no reason why Mr. Davis's opinion should warrant
>> such a violent temper tantrum on Mr. Ismail's part.
>> 
>> 	Now, being an experienced SysAdmin and domain owner myself, I would
>> ordninarily ignore this little bit of childish ranting and move on.
>> However, Mr. Ismail has not been particularly polite to me on other
>> occasions, so I'm beginning to wonder if this is a pattern with him:
>> Specifically, insulting the crap out of anyone that disagrees with him.
>> 
>> 	My question: Many ISPs have, in their Terms of Service, prohibitions
>> against violent flaming. Is psyber.com one of them? If so, would you like
>> me to send you copies of the mailing list postings in question? Perhaps so
>> you can have some basis to remind Mr. Ismail that he's not the only one on
>> the Internet? ;-)
>> 
>> 	If not, just say so and I'll let it go. Thanks in advance.
>> 
>> 
>> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>> Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies
>> http://www.bluefeathertech.com  // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com
>> Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 (Extra class as of June-2K)
>> "I'll get a life when someone demonstrates to me that it would be
>> superior to what I have now..." (Gym Z. Quirk, aka Taki Kogoma).
>
>
>
>Sellam                                 International Man of Intrigue and
Danger
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>Looking for a six in a pile of nines...
>
>                             Coming soon: VCF 4.0!
>                         VCF East: Planning in Progress
>                    See http://www.vintage.org for details!
>
>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies
http://www.bluefeathertech.com  // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com
Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 (Extra class as of June-2K)
"I'll get a life when someone demonstrates to me that it would be
superior to what I have now..." (Gym Z. Quirk, aka Taki Kogoma).

From foo at siconic.com  Fri Oct 13 00:34:56 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: Obsolete? (Was: Re: Speaking of cubes)
In-Reply-To: <004d01c034cc$ce3dc020$0264a8c0@mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010122217030.4935-100000@siconic.com>

On Thu, 12 Oct 2000, Sue & Francois wrote:

> With your train of though even a C64 or an IMSAI is not obsolete if
> they are still being used by individuals, it doesn't matter that the
> company that used to manufacture them is long gone. And obsolescence
> only comes after the last user stop being one.

Well, sort of a stretch, but Bill Millard, who founded IMSAI, also founded
ComputerLand, which by court accounts was started up in part using assets
that were technically owned by IMSAI; ComputerLand went into bankruptcy
and re-emerged as Vanstar, which was acquired by Inacom in 1998:

http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-334076.html?st.ne.fd.mdh

So, if you're real imaginative, IMSAI is still around, but I doubt they'd
give you any support on an IMSAI 8080.

> So here's the real question what is the essence of obsolescence?

In the case of computers in general?  I guess if electricity ceases to
exist, then they would truly be obsolete :)

Sellam                                International Man of Intrigue and Danger
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...

                       VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
               San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
                    See http://www.vintage.org for details!



From foo at siconic.com  Fri Oct 13 00:59:07 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: True colors
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001012231719.00958a30@pop.sttl.uswest.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010122249570.4935-100000@siconic.com>

On Thu, 12 Oct 2000, Bruce Lane wrote:

> 	This one is truly in the "For what it's worth" department.

Um, perhaps "further proof of your being an obnoxious twit"?

I especially like his sig...

> "I'll get a life when someone demonstrates to me that it would be
> superior to what I have now..." (Gym Z. Quirk, aka Taki Kogoma).

What a sad little man :(

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From SUPRDAVE at aol.com  Fri Oct 13 07:08:05 2000
From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: NEC APC available
Message-ID: <c1.7afa77f.27185525@aol.com>

In a message dated 10/13/00 2:25:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, foo@siconic.com 
writes:

> On Thu, 12 Oct 2000, John Foust wrote:
>  
>  > Personally, I'm in a throw-away mood as opposed to a
>  > collection mood.  I tossed 3" x 3" x 25" of old clone
>  > 8088 through 486 PCs and cases away last Tuesday.
>  > 
>  > I coalesced a box of Pentium 50-166 Mhz era motherboards,
>  > some brand-new, and for heaven's sake, they would barely 
>  > fetch a few bucks on eBay.  My other mantra was a friend's
>  > rule that if you can't sell it on eBay, throw it out.
>  
>  ACK!
>  
>  As much as I hate having seemingly useless crap like this, I still refuse
>  to throw it out.  It's useful to SOMEONE.
>  
>  What I'm recommending to people who have older PCs these days is to donate
>  them to your local community college electronics or engineering
>  departments.  I'm sure the students can use them for either spare parts or
>  as controllers for whatever projects they're working on.
>  
>  Pentiums are still useful to schools and other organizations that take PCs
>  and refurbish them to donate to schools.  Try to find places like this
>  where you live.
>  
>  If you still don't want to do even these simple things, in the very least
>  donate your crap to Goodwill.  Maybe someone will come across it and find
>  it useful.  In the very least you can take a tax writeoff.
>  
>  Sellam     

everyone might want to check out this site:

www.freeboxen.com

I just claimed a 286 card for one of my old macs and looks to be a good place 
to get rid of some of my extra PS/2 stuff. 

DB Young         ICQ:  29427634

hurry, hurry, step right up!  see the computers you used as a kid! 

http://www.nothingtodo.org
                           

From jeff.kaneko at juno.com  Fri Oct 13 08:28:19 2000
From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: RL02 Sanity Check
Message-ID: <20001013.082819.-459889.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com>


I realize this falls into the category of stupid 
questions, but: 

The RL02 has to be plugged into a *live* RLV12
before it will spin-up, right?


Jeff
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

From jhfine at idirect.com  Fri Oct 13 09:04:26 2000
From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: RL02 Sanity Check
References: <20001013.082819.-459889.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com>
Message-ID: <39E7166A.D2E06071@idirect.com>

>Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote:

> I realize this falls into the category of stupid
> questions, but:
> The RL02 has to be plugged into a *live* RLV12
> before it will spin-up, right?

Jerome Fine replies:

NO!  But the RED  FAULT light will be ON if the RL02 is
not plugged into the RLV12 (or RLV11) and the CPU is
not powered on.

Sincerely yours,

Jerome Fine


From jeff.kaneko at juno.com  Fri Oct 13 09:39:16 2000
From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: RL02 Sanity Check
Message-ID: <20001013.093916.-351513.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com>


Hmm, okay.  That means mine's broke then.
I powered it up, pack in place, heads retracted.

The fan comes on, the "READY" lite comes on, 
but it doesn't sound like it's spinning up.
No "FAULT" lite.

I pull the pack (heads still retracted), and
turn it on whilst fooling the pack inserted/door closed
switch.  The spindle turns *very* slowly, and then
stops.  

With the rear cover off, it looks like it does the same 
thing with the pack inserted, and cover closed.

I haven't plugged this thing into a live host interface
yet; I'm just trying to see if everything's okay first.

I read somewhere that it gets it's spindle motor clock 
from the RLV12/11).

Jeff


On Fri, 13 Oct 2000 10:04:26 -0400 Jerome Fine <jhfine@idirect.com>
writes:
> >Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote:
> 
> > I realize this falls into the category of stupid
> > questions, but:
> > The RL02 has to be plugged into a *live* RLV12
> > before it will spin-up, right?
> 
> Jerome Fine replies:
> 
> NO!  But the RED  FAULT light will be ON if the RL02 is
> not plugged into the RLV12 (or RLV11) and the CPU is
> not powered on.
> 
> Sincerely yours,
> 
> Jerome Fine
> 

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Fri Oct 13 09:51:54 2000
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
In-Reply-To: <20001012180754.20914.qmail@brouhaha.com>
References: <39E5FE5D.10554.6FD49EC@localhost> (Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de)
Message-ID: <39E73DAA.17145.B20F5F@localhost>

> > and some pricepushing dealer went home with their entire stock ?

> Yup.  Every time I walked by said dealer, I muttered loudly, "priced
> to stay."

> Rumor has it that said deal dumpstered a bunch of stuff after VCF 3
> rather than hauling it back.  I wonder if this happened again?

No, I wasn't talking about computer Jones (in fact, the 30 Buck M1
deal was from him), but rather the couple who waked away (and some
other). But yes, he did it again, but this time we did some dumpster
diveing to rescue most of the stuff - at least an ecological correct
way of disposal awaits them.

And, as already aggreed with Salam, the VCF will have a different
policy about that for next year.

Gruss
H.

--
VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen
http://www.vintage.org/vcfe
http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Fri Oct 13 09:51:54 2000
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010121013090.21403-100000@lanshark.lanminds.com>
References: <003b01c0346d$90b981d0$c834d986@wkchafauradon.beckman.com>
Message-ID: <39E73DAA.15648.B20F50@localhost>

> > >Let's see, how would you name a meeting where several buyers went
> > >home with new toys at acceptable prices (a TRS 80 M1 with expansion
> > >box, printer and all dust covers (!) at USD 30 isn't realy overpriced)
> > >and some pricepushing dealer went home with their entire stock ?

> > I just Wish I could have seen his face when he was packing his stuff back.
> > I hope he swore to never make it back.

> I don't think that my prices were THAT bad!  We made a lot of people
> happy, got rid of a few boxes of old class handout reprints from Dr.
> Dobbs, and found homes for a few items (PCJrs, Portfolio, etc.).  At the
> end of the day, I sold my entire remaining stock that I had brought down
> to a colleague who is starting a collection (OSI, N*'s, Compupro, etc) for
> a preset price.  He still owes me one more pizza.

No, I didn't talk about yours. In fact, this is a real example how
VCF may perform a good trade of for all - while in the exhibition
are had a display of the Little Board (and it's designer for futher
information) I found one, NOS, including all documentation among
your goodies -and at a real reasonable price.

Isn't that a success story ?

Gruss
H.

--
VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen
http://www.vintage.org/vcfe
http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Fri Oct 13 09:51:54 2000
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
In-Reply-To: <005001c03476$7f930260$c834d986@wkchafauradon.beckman.com>
Message-ID: <39E73DAA.11757.B20F6F@localhost>

> >> >Let's see, how would you name a meeting where several buyers went
> >> >home with new toys at acceptable prices (a TRS 80 M1 with expansion
> >> >box, printer and all dust covers (!) at USD 30 isn't realy overpriced)
> >> >and some pricepushing dealer went home with their entire stock ?
> >> I just Wish I could have seen his face when he was packing his stuff back.
> >> I hope he swore to never make it back.
> >I don't think that my prices were THAT bad!  We made a lot of people
> >happy, got rid of a few boxes of old class handout reprints from Dr.
> >Dobbs, and found homes for a few items (PCJrs, Portfolio, etc.).  At the
> >end of the day, I sold my entire remaining stock that I had brought down
> >to a colleague who is starting a collection (OSI, N*'s, Compupro, etc) for
> >a preset price.  He still owes me one more pizza.

> The seller I was refering to had the biggest booth of all and the most
> inflated prices I have ever seen. For reference the name started with
> "Computer" and ended in "Jones", That's the guy who didn't want to sell at
> the VCF. I don't know where he comes from but I have never ever ever seen a
> dealer in used "crap" refusing to bargain. And that really pissed me off
> (here you go Sellam another example of where cussing IS appropriate). That's
> the dude I hope had to take his load back home. He's a buisness and should
> know better. If he wants "ebay prices" (TM) for his stuff, he should sell on
> ebay or out of his store or whaterver hole in the wall he normally operates
> from. A hobby meeting is for hobbyists where you unload stuff you don't want
> anymore and sell at a reasonable price so you're not out of pocket. If a
> business wants to participate, they should undrstand the spirit of the event
> and be willing to play by the rules.

Computer Jones is somewhat odd, but it's still possible to get a
decent deal. He just puts up a completely different scale of
values. And he did sell a lot during the weekend.

Beside that, it's also people like him, who're just in the game
for the cash, who save unusual stuff (temporarly) from the
dumpster. His motivation may be alien and 'evil' to us, but in
the end it turns out to do good - and the result is all to be
counted.

Gruss
H.


--
VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen
http://www.vintage.org/vcfe
http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

From vcf at siconic.com  Fri Oct 13 09:26:04 2000
From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: IBM System 34
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010130725290.5551-100000@siconic.com>


Please reply to the original sender.

Reply-To: CDyson@jones-blythe.com


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 10:23:02 -0500
From: Carol Dyson <CDyson@jones-blythe.com>
Subject: IBM System 34

We are going to dispose of several terminals as well as System 34 - we also
have books from the initial installation, the system itself, plus CMAS
software.  Would someone in the Illinois area be interested?  I am merely
investigating this possibility as a way of not adding to our landfill and
not destroying something that a collector might be interested in.  The
System 34 is still installed and not quit ready for disposal, but terminals
are.  Is this old enough to be of interest?


Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org



From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com  Fri Oct 13 10:38:30 2000
From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: RL02 Sanity Check
In-Reply-To: <20001013.093916.-351513.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001013083830.00986280@pop.sttl.uswest.net>

At 09:39 13-10-2000 -0500, Jeff Kaneko wrote:

	<snip>

>I pull the pack (heads still retracted), and
>turn it on whilst fooling the pack inserted/door closed
>switch.  The spindle turns *very* slowly, and then
>stops.  

	READ BELOW FIRST. Failing that, you may want to check on the solid-state
relay controlling the spindle motor. Most AC SSR's are nothing more than a
pair of triacs or SCR's in opposite/parallel with each other, and sealed in
with an optical source to activate them. If one of the internal devices
fails in an 'open' condition, I could see it creating the kind of symptom
you're describing.

>I haven't plugged this thing into a live host interface
>yet; I'm just trying to see if everything's okay first.

	Ahhhh... and if I'd read this far, I would not have suggested that the
relay might be bad. I seem to recall that the RL02's will not even spin up
if they're not connected to a host controller and powered CPU (someone
double-check me on that, please?)

>I read somewhere that it gets it's spindle motor clock 
>from the RLV12/11).

	This much I remember. The spindle motor is a basic AC synchronous at 3600
RPM. I  could be mistaken, but I've never heard of it needing spindle clock
from the host.


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies
http://www.bluefeathertech.com  // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com
Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 (Extra class as of June-2K)
"I'll get a life when someone demonstrates to me that it would be
superior to what I have now..." (Gym Z. Quirk, aka Taki Kogoma).

From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org  Fri Oct 13 11:22:52 2000
From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: RL02 Sanity Check
In-Reply-To: <20001013.093916.-351513.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> from Jeffrey l
 Kaneko at "Oct 13, 2000 09:39:16 am"
Message-ID: <200010131622.e9DGMrh03435@bg-tc-ppp1073.monmouth.com>

> 
> Hmm, okay.  That means mine's broke then.
> I powered it up, pack in place, heads retracted.
> 
> The fan comes on, the "READY" lite comes on, 
> but it doesn't sound like it's spinning up.
> No "FAULT" lite.
> 
> I pull the pack (heads still retracted), and
> turn it on whilst fooling the pack inserted/door closed
> switch.  The spindle turns *very* slowly, and then
> stops.  
> 
> With the rear cover off, it looks like it does the same 
> thing with the pack inserted, and cover closed.
> 
> I haven't plugged this thing into a live host interface
> yet; I'm just trying to see if everything's okay first.
> 
> I read somewhere that it gets it's spindle motor clock 
> from the RLV12/11).
> 
> Jeff
> 
> 

Sounds normal yet.
Try it with the RLV in a system and cabled to the drive.

Bill

From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Fri Oct 13 11:29:17 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: NEC APC available
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010122204310.4935-100000@siconic.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.0.20001012182946.02872900@pc>
Message-ID: <l03102800b60ce780512e@[192.168.1.4]>

>> Personally, I'm in a throw-away mood as opposed to a
>> collection mood.  I tossed 3" x 3" x 25" of old clone
>> 8088 through 486 PCs and cases away last Tuesday.

>ACK!
>
>As much as I hate having seemingly useless crap like this, I still refuse
>to throw it out.  It's useful to SOMEONE.
>
>What I'm recommending to people who have older PCs these days is to donate
>them to your local community college electronics or engineering

>If you still don't want to do even these simple things, in the very least
>donate your crap to Goodwill.  Maybe someone will come across it and find

I have a four step plan; offer it at a "fair" price on eBay or lists like
this one, then offer it again for a token amount to cover packing, offer it
free with a local pickup, take it to the scrapyard 6 cents/lb for breakage,
more for aluminum, copper, circuit boards etc.

Goodwill and most schools around SoCal have no interest in older systems
(non pentium 166 mmx and above). Exceptions exist, but Goodwill I know
dumps all older systems in bins that go directly to a scrapper at breakage
prices.



From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Fri Oct 13 11:30:52 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: Obsolete? (Was: Re: Speaking of cubes)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010122217030.4935-100000@siconic.com>
References: <004d01c034cc$ce3dc020$0264a8c0@mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <l03102801b60ce900ab6b@[192.168.1.4]>

>and re-emerged as Vanstar, which was acquired by Inacom in 1998:
>
>http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-334076.html?st.ne.fd.mdh
>
>So, if you're real imaginative, IMSAI is still around, but I doubt they'd

I went to the Inacom bankruptcy sale a couple weeks ago.



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri Oct 13 12:06:43 2000
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
In-Reply-To: <39E73DAA.15648.B20F50@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010130949570.4654-100000@lanshark.lanminds.com>

> No, I didn't talk about yours. In fact, this is a real example how
> VCF may perform a good trade of for all - while in the exhibition
> are had a display of the Little Board (and it's designer for futher
> information) I found one, NOS, including all documentation among
> your goodies -and at a real reasonable price.
> Isn't that a success story ?

Something that you would find at FEW events:
Wanted to ID the exact version of something; the original designer of it
was present; while he was ID'ing it, got paid the full asking price.

Very unusual:
Several times during the two days, people paid MORE than the asking price
for stuff!

Left over from one of our advertising campaigns, we had a bunch of
lenticular printing "Save Your Data From Extinction" dinosaur rulers.  My
associate was giving them out to any children that came by.  Parents kept
wanting to PAY something for them!


Suggestion:
a table/bin/dumpster for people/organizations that will accept
"obsolete" stuff, where people can bring and dump^H^H^H^H donate stuff
that they don't want that they can't or don't want to sell.  Accept
"absolutely anything that is computer related".  How much would it cost
for the hauling/dump fees for the residual items that truly nobody wants?


I shall return.

--
Fred Cisin                      cisin@xenosoft.com
XenoSoft                        http://www.xenosoft.com
PO Box 1236                     (510) 558-9366
Berkeley, CA 94701-1236


From tarsi at binhost.com  Fri Oct 13 12:45:52 2000
From: tarsi at binhost.com (Tarsi)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: NEC APC available
In-Reply-To: <l03102800b60ce780512e@[192.168.1.4]>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010122204310.4935-100000@siconic.com>
 <4.3.2.7.0.20001012182946.02872900@pc>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001013124451.00b3b8e0@binhost.com>


>Goodwill and most schools around SoCal have no interest in older systems
>(non pentium 166 mmx and above). Exceptions exist, but Goodwill I know
>dumps all older systems in bins that go directly to a scrapper at breakage
>prices.

Gee, Goodwill is where I've gotten all of my old systems.  PS/2's and 
PS/1's, Compaq 286's, old MacSE's, etc....they seem to put it all out.

Schools really have no interest in old hardware, that's true.

Tarsi
210




210-------------210-------------------210
VISIT OrangeCAM! http://orangenet.dhs.org/~cam/
	  tarsi@binhost.com
       http://orangenet.dhs.org
     http://tarsi.binhost.com
          http://www.foreverbeyond.org
210-------------210-------------------210


From foo at siconic.com  Fri Oct 13 11:49:27 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: Obsolete? (Was: Re: Speaking of cubes)
In-Reply-To: <l03102801b60ce900ab6b@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010130948380.5812-100000@siconic.com>

On Fri, 13 Oct 2000, Mike Ford wrote:

> >and re-emerged as Vanstar, which was acquired by Inacom in 1998:
> >
> >http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-334076.html?st.ne.fd.mdh
> >
> >So, if you're real imaginative, IMSAI is still around, but I doubt they'd
> 
> I went to the Inacom bankruptcy sale a couple weeks ago.

Well, that ends it all then, doesn't it?

I guess you can still get support and stuff from Todd Fischer at the 
new and improved IMSAI:

http://www.imsai.net

;)

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From ncherry at home.net  Fri Oct 13 12:57:29 2000
From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:54 2005
Subject: Microvax II
Message-ID: <39E74D09.CB7C3E16@home.net>

I am the proud owner of a Microvax II (in addition to the 2 at work),
thanks Carlos. I have it safely home, unfortunately it will be idle for
a while as the garage needs to be cleaned, a bunch of construction needs
to be completed before I have time to play (probably January!). Anyway
I now need to find out as much info as I can about the beast. Does anyone
have the link to the part number translation? Where can I get the pin outs
for the card ports? Are there any docs for writing device drivers?

The reason for these questions is that Carlos gave me a rather interesting
board. It contains 1 68 pin DIP with TRW on it (I'm betting it's a Moto
68K chip). It also contains a bunch of TTL, DAC's and what look like op
amps (I have to check the numbers). It also has an unusual RF connector
but has no ROM or RAM. Any idea's? Am I going to need a scratch monkey?

BTW is it easy to design boards for the Microvax. This Analog board seems
really simple. Designing an intelligent SCSI board wouldn't be a lot more
difficult (I didn't say anything about the Vax driver).

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

From mmcfadden at cmh.edu  Fri Oct 13 13:16:08 2000
From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: : Re: 48v dc power and then 110v in car
Message-ID: <E7AC96207335D411B1E7009027FC284906BD1F@EXCHANGE2>

110VAC in Automobile
About 6 years I found that Radio Shack has a plug in the cigarette lighter
converter to 110v.  We were able to power a small color TV and Toshiba VCR
for a 4000 mile in 3 weeks vacation with 3 small kids.  The converter is
fused and sells for about $60. The van was also dragging a small 2 wheel
trailer.  You could feel the engine labor sometimes in the mountains.  I
took ear plugs, disney movie music rots your brain.  My wife still uses the
converter to recharge her cell phone in the car.  

Now parent of 3 partially grown kids, two in high school.
Mike
mmcfadden@cmh.edu

From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu  Fri Oct 13 13:40:46 2000
From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: NEC APC available
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001013124451.00b3b8e0@binhost.com> from Tarsi at "Oct 13, 0 12:45:52 pm"
Message-ID: <200010131840.LAA30794@stockholm.ptloma.edu>

> Gee, Goodwill is where I've gotten all of my old systems.  PS/2's and 
> PS/1's, Compaq 286's, old MacSE's, etc....they seem to put it all out.

Speaking of old systems, that GRiD 1530 of mine is trash bound if I don't
hear from anyone. I have no space for it, I'm afraid.

-- 
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
 Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous. ----------------------------------

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Oct 13 12:32:11 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: 48v dc power
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010121623050.21989-100000@lanshark.lanminds.com> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 12, 0 04:33:33 pm
Message-ID: <m13k8gn-000IyHC@p850ug1>

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Oct 13 12:35:16 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: 48v dc power
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.1001012195418.6325E-100000@osfn.org> from "Merle K. Peirce" at Oct 12, 0 07:56:23 pm
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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Oct 13 12:40:21 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: Speaking of cubes
In-Reply-To: <14822.27797.609494.969610@phaduka.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Oct 12, 0 09:59:49 pm
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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Oct 13 12:46:31 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: RL02 Sanity Check
In-Reply-To: <20001013.082819.-459889.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> from "Jeffrey l Kaneko" at Oct 13, 0 08:28:19 am
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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Oct 13 12:48:27 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: RL02 Sanity Check
In-Reply-To: <39E7166A.D2E06071@idirect.com> from "Jerome Fine" at Oct 13, 0 10:04:26 am
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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Oct 13 12:54:14 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: RL02 Sanity Check
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001013083830.00986280@pop.sttl.uswest.net> from "Bruce Lane" at Oct 13, 0 08:38:30 am
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From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net  Fri Oct 13 13:40:29 2000
From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (FBA)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: 48v dc power and then 110v in car
Message-ID: <000801c03545$16800c80$c834d986@wkchafauradon.beckman.com>

>Now parent of 3 partially grown kids, two in high school.
>Mike


Cool: Bonzai kids...

>mmcfadden@cmh.edu


From jhfine at idirect.com  Fri Oct 13 14:04:25 2000
From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: RL02 Sanity Check
References: <20001013.093916.-351513.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com>
Message-ID: <39E75CB9.B9E957D7@idirect.com>

>Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote:

> Hmm, okay.  That means mine's broke then.
> I powered it up, pack in place, heads retracted.

Jerome Fine replies:

I thought some more about my answer.  I can't
ever remember trying to power-up a disk pack
when the FAULT  LIGHT  WAS  ON since
that would not seem to be very useful, so I might
be wrong when I said that the drive should spin up
even if the fault light is on.

On the other hand, maybe the fault light is burned out.
Then even if the cable is not connected or the CPU
is not powered on, and the fault light should be on
when the RL02 drive is turned on, obviously the fault
light will not be on if it is indeed burned out.

Also, if the cable is connected backward (one side
only - obviously), then the fault light still comes on -
a good test to see if the cable is connected properly.

Sorry I can't help more.  The last time I used an RL02
was over a year ago - and then only to help a friend.
I have not used one for myself for about 8 years.

Sincerely yours,

Jerome Fine

> The fan comes on, the "READY" lite comes on,
> but it doesn't sound like it's spinning up.
> No "FAULT" lite.
>
> I pull the pack (heads still retracted), and
> turn it on whilst fooling the pack inserted/door closed
> switch.  The spindle turns *very* slowly, and then
> stops.
>
> With the rear cover off, it looks like it does the same
> thing with the pack inserted, and cover closed.
>
> I haven't plugged this thing into a live host interface
> yet; I'm just trying to see if everything's okay first.
>
> I read somewhere that it gets it's spindle motor clock
> from the RLV12/11).
>
> Jeff
>
> On Fri, 13 Oct 2000 10:04:26 -0400 Jerome Fine <jhfine@idirect.com>
> writes:
> > >Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote:
> >
> > > I realize this falls into the category of stupid
> > > questions, but:
> > > The RL02 has to be plugged into a *live* RLV12
> > > before it will spin-up, right?
> >
> > Jerome Fine replies:
> >
> > NO!  But the RED  FAULT light will be ON if the RL02 is
> > not plugged into the RLV12 (or RLV11) and the CPU is
> > not powered on.
> >
> > Sincerely yours,
> >
> > Jerome Fine
> >
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
> Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
> Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.




From b.layer at vikingelectronics.com  Fri Oct 13 14:10:05 2000
From: b.layer at vikingelectronics.com (Bill Layer)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: Intel MDS 225 (1st post)
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001013141000.00cfe100@192.168.210.18>

Greetings,

I subbed this list because I was given a rather large & heavy old machine 
which the owner refers to as an "Intel MDS225" and I am totally devoid of 
any official information about it. It consists of a large, white, main 
unit, which houses a CRT display, power supply and a bank of slots, several 
of which are occupied by plug-in cards.

The unit also includes a separate keyboard, and a dual 8" floppy drive 
housed in a cabinet (which is blue in color), and fits underneath the main 
unit. Also supplied is a set of hardware that I believe is for in-circuit 
emulation of an i8048 microprocessor. As I understand it, this machine was 
used to develop firmware for several products which were controlled by 8048 
/ 8749 micros. The owner also said that it runs (or ran, I have not put 
power to it) the ISIS operating system.

So what have I got here, and to what potentially interesting use might I 
put it? Was it worth the agony of dragging it home and up the steps? :)

Thanks,
Bill Layer
Sales Technician
<b.layer@vikingelectronics.com>

+----------------------------------+
      Viking Electronics, Inc.
        1531 Industrial St.
     Hudson, WI. 54016 - U.S.A
       715.386.8861 ext. 210
  <http://www.vikingelectronics.com>
+----------------------------------+

"Telecom Solutions for the 21st Century"

  


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Oct 13 14:52:07 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: Microvax II
In-Reply-To: <39E74D09.CB7C3E16@home.net> from "Neil Cherry" at Oct 13, 0 01:57:29 pm
Message-ID: <m13kAsF-000IyHC@p850ug1>

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Oct 13 15:09:43 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: Intel MDS 225 (1st post)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001013141000.00cfe100@192.168.210.18> from "Bill Layer" at Oct 13, 0 02:10:05 pm
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From elvey at hal.com  Fri Oct 13 15:31:57 2000
From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: Intel MDS 225 (1st post)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001013141000.00cfe100@192.168.210.18>
Message-ID: <200010132031.NAA11889@civic.hal.com>

"Bill Layer" <b.layer@vikingelectronics.com> wrote:
> Greetings,
> 
> I subbed this list because I was given a rather large & heavy old machine 
> which the owner refers to as an "Intel MDS225" and I am totally devoid of 
> any official information about it. It consists of a large, white, main 
> unit, which houses a CRT display, power supply and a bank of slots, several 
> of which are occupied by plug-in cards.
> 
> The unit also includes a separate keyboard, and a dual 8" floppy drive 
> housed in a cabinet (which is blue in color), and fits underneath the main 
> unit. Also supplied is a set of hardware that I believe is for in-circuit 
> emulation of an i8048 microprocessor. As I understand it, this machine was 
> used to develop firmware for several products which were controlled by 8048 
> / 8749 micros. The owner also said that it runs (or ran, I have not put 
> power to it) the ISIS operating system.
> 
> So what have I got here, and to what potentially interesting use might I 
> put it? Was it worth the agony of dragging it home and up the steps? :)

Hi
 This is one of the developement systems that Intel sold.
ISIS was the O/S that Intel uses for their machines. It
most likely has a 8080 or 8085 as the main processor ( I forget
when they changed things ). It sounds like you have what
was generically known as a series II type machine, although
there was usually one drive in the main cabinet next to the
CRT. The machine can be made into a CPM machine if you like
but the disk may not be compatable with other machines. These
most likely used M2FM soft sectored formats.
 I liked ISIS. It was a good OS. Scripting sequences of things
to do was relatively easy. It shows a lot of similarity
to CPM. These machines are not getting top dollar but they
are still a lot of fun to play with. They run multi-bus cards.
You can even get a 8086 card for them if you look around.
 I'm still looking to see if anyone has a copy of a program
called X1.11 or X1.12 for ISIS?
Dwight


From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Fri Oct 13 15:54:59 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: Intel 310   286 box
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB1F6@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>


> We still have about 4 of these 310's in operation here which we are in the
> process of retiring. But, unlike Pats, ours run the iRMX OS. There wasan
active
> user group for these (iRUG ?) but don't know if its still a  functioning
> group.

Always wanted an iRMX-based system...

Do these 310s have their retirement mapped out already?

regards,
-dq

From jfoust at threedee.com  Fri Oct 13 16:17:13 2000
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: NEC APC available
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010122204310.4935-100000@siconic.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.0.20001012182946.02872900@pc>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001013155949.02f5b5b0@pc>

At 10:07 PM 10/12/00 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote:
>As much as I hate having seemingly useless crap like this, I still refuse
>to throw it out.  It's useful to SOMEONE.

Probably not.  I'd collected most of these older PCs from the 
trash from a local computer dealer.  That doesn't mean they were 
broken, it means he didn't want them and the customer didn't 
want them.

Some were just fine.  Others...  sheesh, it just comes down to 
time.  I'd packratted them for years.  To bring any one of them 
up to speed (with memory, CD, sound, etc.) involves so much wasted 
time mucking around, and then you end up with a slow Win95 box or
yet another box with the world's largest virus, Linux.  

If I really need a new firewall or new utility PC, why shouldn't I 
spend $400 and get a new whiz-bang disposable eMachine from Best Buy?
What is my frigging time worth?  Whoops, I got all excited there, 
remembering I was responding to Sellam, and that I had to speak 
crudely in order to be understood.  I'm self-employed.  I put a
price tag on everything, especially time.

I'm not truly reformed, though.  I saved a couple known-working 
486/66s to revive for my three kids.  They're sharing an eMachine
now, but it would be fun to have one in each kid's room.  But I'm
sure that ten minutes after installation, I'll be asked by a 
five-year-old why he can't get to ToonDisney.com, which requires
a browser with Flash and who knows what else.

>What I'm recommending to people who have older PCs these days is to donate
>them to your local community college electronics or engineering
>departments.  I'm sure the students can use them for either spare parts or
>as controllers for whatever projects they're working on.
>Pentiums are still useful to schools and other organizations that take PCs
>and refurbish them to donate to schools.

Two weeks ago, the school superintendent asked me where *he* could
dump old PCs.  They've got too many, and their technology director
would never allow such mutts in the classroom.  Have you been to a 
school or a library lately?  The machines are bolted down in hardware
and software to keep you from doing naughty things.  Teachers here
aren't even allowed to install any software on their PCs, the techs
must do it for them, all for reasons of support, piracy and viruses.

Similarly, other clients ask me what they can do with their old 
(486/xx, P-133, etc.) computers.  They have barely enough RAM for 
Win95, hard disks that seem puny by today's standards, no software 
transferred legally, etc.

Sure, think it's generous to give it away, or send it to Goodwill...  
but what is someone getting?  They're getting something that they 
can't use to run Office so they can better themselves at their job, 
and it's not big enough or fast enough to get on the net, and it's 
going to require someone with arcane knowledge to fix it or upgrade
it.  What you've given them is clearly inferior.  If they don't 
recognize that right away, they'll learn it soon enough.  You're 
giving them a headache and an obligation to waste time trying to 
squeeze oomph out of a computer that doesn't have it to begin with.

- John


From jfoust at threedee.com  Fri Oct 13 16:21:17 2000
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: NEC APC available
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20001012210151.00ac9550@208.226.86.10>
References: <4.3.2.7.0.20001012182946.02872900@pc>
 <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010121411360.4291-100000@siconic.com>
 <4.3.2.7.0.20001012093924.028a0a30@pc>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001013155618.026ab470@pc>

At 09:10 PM 10/12/00 -0700, Chuck McManis wrote:
>Besides the obvious typo (unless you actually put the cases in the trash compactor first :-) I would say that you are metamorphosing.

Yes, that was supposed to be "feet".  You mean metamorphasizing?
Or metamorphing or just plain morphing?

>I recently gave away all my Amiga stuff. And it wasn't because it wasn't good stuff. In fact it was the best stuff of everything, but it just wasn't germane to my collection.

Argh!  I trust it found a good home.  I haven't morphed far enough to 
toss my Amiga schtuff, which includes the truly rare and obscure.  
I've thought about putting some of it on the eBay block, though.  

I'd rather learn about some Amiga documentation project that would 
scan it all to CD, though, and donate it to them...  but I get the
impression that today's Amigoids aren't interested in the historical
details, but more the latest-greatest that keeps their machines 
functional and alive.

Darn, which reminds me...  once upon a time I got a stack of
Robocity posters from Dale Luck.  I managed to keep them in 
great shape all these years.  I should've sent them to Sellam
to sell as a fund-raiser for the last VCF.

- John


From b.layer at vikingelectronics.com  Fri Oct 13 16:20:37 2000
From: b.layer at vikingelectronics.com (Bill Layer)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: Intel MDS 225 (1st post)
In-Reply-To: <m13kB9G-000IyHC@p850ug1>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001013141000.00cfe100@192.168.210.18>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001013160952.00cca300@192.168.210.18>

Hi Tony, Dwight,

>There'll be a CPU (probably an 8080 or 8085, knowing Intel :-)) on one of
>those plug-in cards, and memory on at least one other. One or two more
>will be the disk controller for the 8" drives (I have the MDS800, and the
>disk controller for that is not exactly simple...).

Yes, that pretty much sums it up - I knew that one board was the disk 
controller (I think it is marked as such) and I'm pretty sure that one 
other board has the 8085 CPU on it as you describe.

>ISIS = Intel Systems Integrated Supervisor (or something like that) and
>is the OS that virtually all the MDS's ran...

Interesting, that is the first explanation of the ISIS acronym I have heard 
so far.

>An in-circuit emulator is a fun toy if you're interested in building
>microcontroller boards yourself.

Not too much explanation required on that topic - I do a bit of firmware 
development here at work, with the Microchip PIC series of 
microcontrollers. Fortunately, the PIC ICE is nothing nearly as large, slow 
or heavy as the MDS system in question. The MDS was used to develop many of 
our products up until we went to PICs a number of years ago (and well 
before I joined the company). The MDS was given me by an engineer here, and 
came with a pile of disks and no documentation.

I was hoping that I could get some useful OS running, CPM would be great; I 
have several CPM machines already, so it's not totally foreign to me. Would 
I need a different CPU card, or other hardware to run CP/M? For that 
matter, who ported the CPM to this architecture? I assume that the MDS 
architecture is totally weird & proprietary...

Dwight, I will look through my set of disks for the program that you 
request, I have no idea what is in there, other than the softs to run the 
ICE function. Thanks to both of you for your help, much appreciated.


Bill Layer
Sales Technician
<b.layer@vikingelectronics.com>

+----------------------------------+
      Viking Electronics, Inc.
        1531 Industrial St.
     Hudson, WI. 54016 - U.S.A
       715.386.8861 ext. 210
  <http://www.vikingelectronics.com>
+----------------------------------+

"Telecom Solutions for the 21st Century"

  


From b.layer at vikingelectronics.com  Fri Oct 13 16:29:28 2000
From: b.layer at vikingelectronics.com (Bill Layer)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: AT&T SysV UNIX v2.1 r4
In-Reply-To: <200010132031.NAA11889@civic.hal.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001013141000.00cfe100@192.168.210.18>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001013162109.00cfe700@192.168.210.18>

Hope this is not to OT (it's about OS, not hardware...)

I've come to posses an install floppy set for AT&T SysV UNIX v2.1 r4, but 
absolutely no documentation. After trying to install it on about 10 
different machines, I found that it settled in happily on (of all things) a 
Compaq ProlineaMT 4/33 (now u/g to P83 Overdrive and 32MB of RAM). That 
part is fine.

Unfortunately, without documentation or even an HCL, I am pretty much in 
the dark. I managed to install all of the packages, but there is no 
networking support to be found.. ditto for C compilers, none to be found 
anywhere in the system. Now since we all know that C and networking are two 
fundamental tenets of UNIX, how might I proceed to get this box networked 
and on line? Sine none of the networking commands are installed (no ping, 
ftp, telnet etc.) I assume that the entire TCP/IP networking package was an 
option.. same for the C development package?

Could someone provide docs, guidance, or just the wise advice to drop this 
project all together? :)

Bill


From lgwalker at look.ca  Fri Oct 13 12:29:44 2000
From: lgwalker at look.ca (Lawrence Walker)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: True colors
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010122249570.4935-100000@siconic.com>
References: <3.0.5.32.20001012231719.00958a30@pop.sttl.uswest.net>
Message-ID: <39E70E49.17012.384DAAC@localhost>



> On Thu, 12 Oct 2000, Bruce Lane wrote:
> 
> > 	This one is truly in the "For what it's worth" department.
> 
> Um, perhaps "further proof of your being an obnoxious twit"?
> 
> I especially like his sig...
> 
> > "I'll get a life when someone demonstrates to me that it would be
> > superior to what I have now..." (Gym Z. Quirk, aka Taki Kogoma).
> 
> What a sad little man :(
> 
> Sellam Ismail                                   Vintage Computer
> Festival
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------- International Man of Intrigue and Danger               
> http://www.vintage.org
> 
 And I wouldn't exactly characterize the original post as
polite, which referred to the "idiot who wrote the book on collecting
computers". I can only assume this referred to Kevin Stumpf  who is
a sometime contributer to the list and has gone to great lengths to 
preserve old computers, and started many years before it became 
trendy.
 I would also question the disparaging remarks vis-a -vis VCF. Many
of us on the list view the success of VCF and now VCE with  a 
pride in Sellams accomplishment, having taken part in it's inception 
and development thru discussions on the cc m-l.
 Many of us have been flayed by Sellams volitile personality. He
only gave voice to my own indignation. While not giving him carte
blanche, ( I would flame just him as heavily should the situation 
arise), it should be remembered that PROFANEity is simply a
religio-cultural view. Remember Lenny Bruce ? From my point of 
view "bomb them back to the stone age" is profanity of the highest
order and there are many others accepted in everyday exchanges.
 To each his own.

ciao		larry





Reply to:
lgwalker@look.ca

From lgwalker at look.ca  Fri Oct 13 12:29:45 2000
From: lgwalker at look.ca (Lawrence Walker)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: 48v dc power
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20001012095342.027c5d80@pc>
References: <39E3BA59.3D0FE289@mcmanis.com>
Message-ID: <39E70E49.23745.384DAD3@localhost>



> At 05:54 PM 10/10/00 -0700, Chuck McManis wrote:
> >Why not buy a "dead" UPS that can over the wattage of your system and
> >install a 12V in plug on the back. Most of these use a 12V DC input
> >and provide acceptable power on the output. Its cheaper than simply
> >buying a 12V -> 120V inverter @600Watts or so. 
> At 07:30 PM 10/10/00 -0700, Shawn T. Rutledge wrote:
> >Because it's grossly inefficient.  Why convert from 12V to 120V AC
> >and then back to 12V, 5V, etc... they design some really efficient
> >DC-DC converters for laptops (to convert battery voltage to 5V) so it
> >should be possible (cheaply) for desktops also.
> 
> Not only have I wondered about the most efficient way to
> power a PC inside a car, but other devices...  a few months
> back I was looking for a 12 volt to 6 volt converter to 
> power a Sony GV-9 video deck in the car, to no avail.
> 
> All the units I found were too low in amps-out.  I avoided
> the 12v -> 120v -> wall wart solution as too gross and inefficient,
> but I guess it would work.
> 
> - John
> 
 You'd think there'd be lots of 12v > 6v car convertors around from 
the time of the change from 6v to 12v automobile systems. Might try
a large wrecker or old car-parts supplier.

 I have a couple of Tripp-lite 675W UPS. 4 sockets supply up to 6 
amps, one of which I use with my main boxen. They use what 
appears to me a car 12v lead-acid battery. One even has the old-
style lead terminal clamps, while the other has the screw into the
posts leads. I had always envisioned using the spare as a 120v.
supply in my (not-yet-acquired-but-soon) retirement camper or van 
and simply bypassing the 120v charging cicuit on the UPS. Just 
hooking the UPS battery into the vehicle charging system, thus
being able to use it for a computer, lites, TV, etc.
 It can power up even when it is disconnected from the main or
during a power failure. And since I have one, it's inexpensive.

 From this discussion I'm now concerned, and unable to discern 
whether:

  A.  It isn't feasable for some strange reason.
  B.  There is a problem with auto power fluctuation or generation.
or
  C.  It isn't the optimum in-vehicle supply for nit-pickers. (just 
ignore)

 And of course many people power up their phones and laptops
using a cigarette-lighter socket. Am I missing something here ? 
And no I'm not likely to travel with a mini rack.

ciao		larry

Reply to:
lgwalker@look.ca

From zmerch at 30below.com  Fri Oct 13 16:46:14 2000
From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: Amiga Schtuff (was: NEC APC available
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20001013155618.026ab470@pc>
References: <4.3.1.2.20001012210151.00ac9550@208.226.86.10>
 <4.3.2.7.0.20001012182946.02872900@pc>
 <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010121411360.4291-100000@siconic.com>
 <4.3.2.7.0.20001012093924.028a0a30@pc>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20001013174614.01090ec8@mail.30below.com>

Rumor has it that John Foust may have mentioned these words:
>At 09:10 PM 10/12/00 -0700, Chuck McManis wrote:
>>Besides the obvious typo (unless you actually put the cases in the trash
compactor first :-) I would say that you are metamorphosing.
>
>Yes, that was supposed to be "feet".  You mean metamorphasizing?
>Or metamorphing or just plain morphing?
>
>>I recently gave away all my Amiga stuff. And it wasn't because it wasn't
good stuff. In fact it was the best stuff of everything, but it just wasn't
germane to my collection.
>
>Argh!  I trust it found a good home.  I haven't morphed far enough to 
>toss my Amiga schtuff, which includes the truly rare and obscure.  
>I've thought about putting some of it on the eBay block, though.  
>
>I'd rather learn about some Amiga documentation project that would 
>scan it all to CD, though, and donate it to them...  but I get the
>impression that today's Amigoids aren't interested in the historical
>details, but more the latest-greatest that keeps their machines 
>functional and alive.
>
>Darn, which reminds me...  once upon a time I got a stack of
>Robocity posters from Dale Luck.  I managed to keep them in 
>great shape all these years.  I should've sent them to Sellam
>to sell as a fund-raiser for the last VCF.
>
>- John
>
>
>
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger   ---   sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
Recycling is good, right???  Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig.

If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead
disarmament should *not* be your first career choice.

From zmerch at 30below.com  Fri Oct 13 16:51:03 2000
From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: Amiga Schtuff (was: NEC APC available)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20001013155618.026ab470@pc>
References: <4.3.1.2.20001012210151.00ac9550@208.226.86.10>
 <4.3.2.7.0.20001012182946.02872900@pc>
 <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010121411360.4291-100000@siconic.com>
 <4.3.2.7.0.20001012093924.028a0a30@pc>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20001013175103.01090ec8@mail.30below.com>

Egads... Methinks this might hit the list twice... if so, sorry!
[ I *hate* the fact that <CTRL><E> in SpEudora is *send immediately* :-(  ]

Rumor has it that John Foust may have mentioned these words:

>>I recently gave away all my Amiga stuff. And it wasn't because it wasn't
good stuff. In fact it was the best stuff of everything, but it just wasn't
germane to my collection.

I have been looking... no... *begging* for some amiga stuff... Not much at
all here in the rarefied atmosphere of the "Way North Midwest..."

>I haven't morphed far enough to 
>toss my Amiga schtuff, which includes the truly rare and obscure.  

I call Dibs!

>I've thought about putting some of it on the eBay block, though.  

<sniff> I'll never get it... :-(

Ah well... I guess I'll just have to go back to learning VMS with no
documentation... :-/

Tho I'm not normally superstitious, I guess Friday the 13th strikes after
all... ;-)
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger   ---   sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
Recycling is good, right???  Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig.

If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead
disarmament should *not* be your first career choice.

From mgregory at vantageresearch.com  Fri Oct 13 16:54:27 2000
From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: Some HP 150 questions
Message-ID: <01db01c03560$28a1d180$0200a8c0@marvin>

Can anyone point me to a source for the non-PC compatible version of MS-DOS
used on the HP Series 100 machines? I recently found a complete HP 150
system (the touchscreen monitor/processor unit, a dual 3.5" floppy unit,
HPIB interface Thinkjet, and keyboard), but couldn't unearth any software
or docs.

I'm interested in the OS, as well as apps that will run on a 150. I'll pay
cash, or am open to trades if I have surplus items of interest. Please
reply off-list to gregorym@cadvision.com

Also, is the 150's keyboard cable just a 6 pin straight through cable with
the large phone type connectors (whose name escapes me at the moment)?

Thanks in advance.

Mark Gregory


From zmerch at 30below.com  Fri Oct 13 17:06:38 2000
From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: "Old Crap" (was: NEC APC available)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20001013155949.02f5b5b0@pc>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010122204310.4935-100000@siconic.com>
 <4.3.2.7.0.20001012182946.02872900@pc>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20001013180638.01090ec8@mail.30below.com>

Rumor has it that John Foust may have mentioned these words:
>At 10:07 PM 10/12/00 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote:
>>As much as I hate having seemingly useless crap like this, I still refuse
>>to throw it out.  It's useful to SOMEONE.
>
>Probably not.  I'd collected most of these older PCs from the 
>trash from a local computer dealer.  That doesn't mean they were 
>broken, it means he didn't want them and the customer didn't 
>want them.

Unforch, you seem to forget not everyone lives in sillycon valley...
Our local *high* school is still 75% 486 based... they'd *kill* for some
tossed Pentiums, no matter what RAM/HD/CDROM/etc...

>If I really need a new firewall or new utility PC, why shouldn't I 
>spend $400 and get a new whiz-bang disposable eMachine from Best Buy?

Ummmm... because they're crap? Of the eMachines I've seen/worked on, half
(yes, I said *half*) of them needed to be returned to the company because
they didn't last a week (under the lightest of loads).

>I'm not truly reformed, though.  I saved a couple known-working 
>486/66s to revive for my three kids.  They're sharing an eMachine
>now, but it would be fun to have one in each kid's room.  But I'm
>sure that ten minutes after installation, I'll be asked by a 
>five-year-old why he can't get to ToonDisney.com, which requires
>a browser with Flash and who knows what else.

And my answer to my 10 year old son is "because you don't need it." Just
like my father's answer to the snowmobile use was "if you can't start it or
help fix it, you can't ride it."

>Two weeks ago, the school superintendent asked me where *he* could
>dump old PCs.  They've got too many, and their technology director
>would never allow such mutts in the classroom.  Have you been to a 
>school or a library lately?

This morning. It was *ahem* pitiful, what the kids around here are forced
to "learn" on. Oh, and our (Michigan's) Govenor just *cut* technology
funding for hardware for schools. :-(

[[ And if you don't think this is your problem (in the U.S.) - he was in
high consideration for running for President a few years back... ]]

Anywho, just my other side of the coin...
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger   ---   sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
Recycling is good, right???  Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig.

If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead
disarmament should *not* be your first career choice.

From elvey at hal.com  Fri Oct 13 17:12:15 2000
From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: Intel MDS 225 (1st post)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001013160952.00cca300@192.168.210.18>
Message-ID: <200010132212.PAA11985@civic.hal.com>

"Bill Layer" <b.layer@vikingelectronics.com> wrote:
---snip---
> before I joined the company). The MDS was given me by an engineer here, and 
> came with a pile of disks and no documentation.

 I have documentation on ISIS but it would be a bit much for
me to copy ( hundreds of pages ). The documentation I have
is for a MDS-800 so it doesn't have the up to date hardware
information on your machine. They did make the machines vary
software compatable, though. There is some low level
code used to get things started but the documents have enough
information on how to do things like writing directly to disk
and such. I once did a early FIG Forth that started from
ISIS and then did block disk I/O. It wasn't that difficult.
It ran on both the MDS-800's and series II that we had when
I was at Intel ( '78-'83 ).

> 
> I was hoping that I could get some useful OS running, CPM would be great; I 
> have several CPM machines already, so it's not totally foreign to me. Would 
> I need a different CPU card, or other hardware to run CP/M? For that 
> matter, who ported the CPM to this architecture? I assume that the MDS 
> architecture is totally weird & proprietary...

 If you look at the typical documentation that show how to do
a BIOS for CPM ( or is that BDOS, I get the two confused ), you'll
see that they have code for connecting to an Intel system. The
code should work on your machine, as I recall. The main issue
is that you'll most likely have to transfer things through a
serial port to the MDS. It's a pain but it can be done.
Dwight


From jimw at agora.rdrop.com  Fri Oct 13 17:15:06 2000
From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: True colors
In-Reply-To: <39E70E49.17012.384DAAC@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.95.1001013150325.18413A-100000@agora.rdrop.com>

Not that I want to get wedged into the moddle of this one, but...

On Fri, 13 Oct 2000, Lawrence Walker wrote:
> > 
>  And I wouldn't exactly characterize the original post as
> polite, which referred to the "idiot who wrote the book on collecting
> computers". I can only assume this referred to Kevin Stumpf  who is
> a sometime contributer to the list and has gone to great lengths to 
> preserve old computers, and started many years before it became 
> trendy.

Well, while not being a mind reader one could also "assume" that the
reference could have been to Dr. Haddock who published a book on the topic
some time prior to Kevin's book...  FWIW

>  I would also question the disparaging remarks vis-a -vis VCF. Many
> of us on the list view the success of VCF and now VCE with  a 
> pride in Sellams accomplishment, having taken part in it's inception 
> and development thru discussions on the cc m-l.

For my part, I'm greatful that someone had the 'brass monkeys' to take on
creating and producing something like VCF.  It was likely inevitable that
somewhere there would be a renaissance in computing and peoples interest
would spike along with the (real or preceived) value of the relative gear.

To try to assign (credit|blame) to any given event is perhaps an academic
exercise similar to defining with any certanty what machine(s) actually
'started' the (personal|home) computer revolution.  (this being
significantly different from the 'PC' 'revolution')

>  Many of us have been flayed by Sellams volitile personality. He
> only gave voice to my own indignation. While not giving him carte
> blanche, ( I would flame just him as heavily should the situation 
> arise), it should be remembered that PROFANEity is simply a
> religio-cultural view. Remember Lenny Bruce ? From my point of 
> view "bomb them back to the stone age" is profanity of the highest
> order and there are many others accepted in everyday exchanges.

You mean a flameproof suit is not in *everyones* wardrobe?

>  To each his own.

To borrow an almost appropriate thought:

Don't take life too seriously.  It is after all just a game...
...and no body makes it out alive.

--never can remember who said that originally.  Although I have used it on
radio shows from time to time.   B^}

-jim
---
jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174


From jfoust at threedee.com  Fri Oct 13 17:29:26 2000
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: "Old Crap" (was: NEC APC available)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20001013180638.01090ec8@mail.30below.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.0.20001013155949.02f5b5b0@pc>
 <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010122204310.4935-100000@siconic.com>
 <4.3.2.7.0.20001012182946.02872900@pc>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001013172752.027931b0@pc>

At 06:06 PM 10/13/00 -0400, Roger Merchberger wrote:
>Unforch, you seem to forget not everyone lives in sillycon valley...
>Our local *high* school is still 75% 486 based... they'd *kill* for some
>tossed Pentiums, no matter what RAM/HD/CDROM/etc...

Uhm Roger, you seem to forget that I'm in Wisconsin, own a
tractor or two, have chicken and sheep poop on my dress shoes,
live on a farm, etc.  I'm 45 minutes between Madison and Milwaukee.

- John


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Fri Oct 13 18:05:17 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: Microvax II
Message-ID: <007d01c0356a$d9f82e20$9d789a8d@ajp166>

From: Neil Cherry <ncherry@home.net>
>BTW is it easy to design boards for the Microvax. This Analog board
seems
>really simple. Designing an intelligent SCSI board wouldn't be a lot
more
>difficult (I didn't say anything about the Vax driver).


MVII is a Q-bus machine and like it's compatable Q-bus PDP-11s that
went before and during its a reasonably easy bus to interface to and
DEC did a fair job of makeing the documentation for it easy to get.
Designing a PIO SCSI card would be easy, DMA a bit harder but
there is no secrets there either.  Programming is another thing though
as the Q-bus is an annex of the processor address space and DMA
between memory (on private(PMI) bus) and QBUS devices is more
complex programming.  However RQDX (disks), DEQNA/DELQA (NIC)
do the dma trick so that is already known.

Allison




From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Oct 13 17:22:52 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: Some HP 150 questions
In-Reply-To: <01db01c03560$28a1d180$0200a8c0@marvin> from "Mark Gregory" at Oct 13, 0 03:54:27 pm
Message-ID: <m13kDE7-000IyJC@p850ug1>

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Oct 13 17:20:23 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: Intel MDS 225 (1st post)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001013160952.00cca300@192.168.210.18> from "Bill Layer" at Oct 13, 0 04:20:37 pm
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From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org  Fri Oct 13 19:09:00 2000
From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: "Old Crap" (was: NEC APC available)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20001013180638.01090ec8@mail.30below.com> from Roger Merchberger
 at "Oct 13, 2000 06:06:38 pm"
Message-ID: <200010140009.e9E090L04395@bg-tc-ppp1181.monmouth.com>

> Rumor has it that John Foust may have mentioned these words:
> >At 10:07 PM 10/12/00 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote:
> >>As much as I hate having seemingly useless crap like this, I still refuse
> >>to throw it out.  It's useful to SOMEONE.
> >
> >Probably not.  I'd collected most of these older PCs from the 
> >trash from a local computer dealer.  That doesn't mean they were 
> >broken, it means he didn't want them and the customer didn't 
> >want them.
> 
> Unforch, you seem to forget not everyone lives in sillycon valley...
> Our local *high* school is still 75% 486 based... they'd *kill* for some
> tossed Pentiums, no matter what RAM/HD/CDROM/etc...


Around here it's pretty hard to get 'em to take anything less than a
high end box for the schools.  A friend said Intel donated a pile of
PII's to their local Catholic school as part of some project.

> 
> >If I really need a new firewall or new utility PC, why shouldn't I 
> >spend $400 and get a new whiz-bang disposable eMachine from Best Buy?
> 

Because $400 is a waste for a firewall...

A reasonable 486 with FreeBSD will handle a 10BaseT connection 
firewall with ease (and I don't know any folk with 100BaseT home DSL
or Cable modem connections)...

> >I'm not truly reformed, though.  I saved a couple known-working 
> >486/66s to revive for my three kids.  They're sharing an eMachine
> >now, but it would be fun to have one in each kid's room.  But I'm
> >sure that ten minutes after installation, I'll be asked by a 
> >five-year-old why he can't get to ToonDisney.com, which requires
> >a browser with Flash and who knows what else.
> 

Actually my daughter (6 1/2) did pretty good with Win95/IE4, a
DX2/66 and  ethernet with 32mb of memory.

She's been upgraded to a Cyrix 233 now... but it worked fine
with the DX2/66.


> And my answer to my 10 year old son is "because you don't need it." Just
> like my father's answer to the snowmobile use was "if you can't start it or
> help fix it, you can't ride it."
> 
> >Two weeks ago, the school superintendent asked me where *he* could
> >dump old PCs.  They've got too many, and their technology director
> >would never allow such mutts in the classroom.  Have you been to a 
> >school or a library lately?
> 
> This morning. It was *ahem* pitiful, what the kids around here are forced
> to "learn" on. Oh, and our (Michigan's) Govenor just *cut* technology
> funding for hardware for schools. :-(

If you've got people willing to prowl the net and hit companies with 
requests, there's a ton of places with low end pentiums (and even some
PII's to donate).  The problem is getting them to trust you to get the
internal data off.

I can't donate anything at work -- because they're afraid someone's
hi-tech prototype will end up either a science fair project for a kid or
MS will find someone with some software that got left behind on a disk
and sue.

> 
> [[ And if you don't think this is your problem (in the U.S.) - he was in
> high consideration for running for President a few years back... ]]

Please.... the politics in NJ is just as bad.

> 
> Anywho, just my other side of the coin...
> Roger "Merch" Merchberger
> --
> Roger "Merch" Merchberger   ---   sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
> Recycling is good, right???  Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig.
> 
> If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead
> disarmament should *not* be your first career choice.
> 

Bill

-- 
bpechter@monmouth.com    | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10  
                         | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2
                         | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour 

From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org  Fri Oct 13 19:11:36 2000
From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: VMS with no documentation
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20001013175103.01090ec8@mail.30below.com> from Roger Merchberger
 at "Oct 13, 2000 05:51:03 pm"
Message-ID: <200010140011.e9E0Bbl04416@bg-tc-ppp1181.monmouth.com>

Roger "Merch" Merchberger   ---   sysadmin, Iceberg Computers said:

> Ah well... I guess I'll just have to go back to learning VMS with no
> documentation... :-/

Repeat after me...  The help command is your friend.

Help Backup
Help Copy

If you speak reasonably fluent English you can admin VMS on a Vax....
Took me years to get good at Unix and vi.

The real fun on VMS is how slick EDT is with a good VT100/220.

> Roger "Merch" Merchberger   ---   sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
> Recycling is good, right???  Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig.
> 
> If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead
> disarmament should *not* be your first career choice.
> 
> 

Bill

-- 
bpechter@monmouth.com    | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10  
                         | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2
                         | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour 

From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org  Fri Oct 13 19:12:59 2000
From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: AT&T SysV UNIX v2.1 r4
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001013162109.00cfe700@192.168.210.18> from Bill Layer
 at "Oct 13, 2000 04:29:28 pm"
Message-ID: <200010140012.e9E0CxL04428@bg-tc-ppp1181.monmouth.com>

> Hope this is not to OT (it's about OS, not hardware...)
> 
> I've come to posses an install floppy set for AT&T SysV UNIX v2.1 r4, but 
> absolutely no documentation. After trying to install it on about 10 
> different machines, I found that it settled in happily on (of all things) a 
> Compaq ProlineaMT 4/33 (now u/g to P83 Overdrive and 32MB of RAM). That 
> part is fine.
> 
> Unfortunately, without documentation or even an HCL, I am pretty much in 
> the dark. I managed to install all of the packages, but there is no 
> networking support to be found.. ditto for C compilers, none to be found 
> anywhere in the system. Now since we all know that C and networking are two 
> fundamental tenets of UNIX, how might I proceed to get this box networked 
> and on line? Sine none of the networking commands are installed (no ping, 
> ftp, telnet etc.) I assume that the entire TCP/IP networking package was an 
> option.. same for the C development package?
> 
> Could someone provide docs, guidance, or just the wise advice to drop this 
> project all together? :)
> 
> Bill

TCP/IP, hah.  TCP/IP didn't show up in SysV until the 3.x range and
didn't end up as standard until the SVR4 stuff.

Bill

-- 
bpechter@monmouth.com    | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10  
                         | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2
                         | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour 

From harrison at timharrison.com  Fri Oct 13 19:37:47 2000
From: harrison at timharrison.com (Tim Harrison)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: AT&T SysV UNIX v2.1 r4
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001013141000.00cfe100@192.168.210.18> <4.3.2.7.2.20001013162109.00cfe700@192.168.210.18>
Message-ID: <39E7AADB.24012708@timharrison.com>

Bill Layer wrote:

> Unfortunately, without documentation or even an HCL, I am pretty much in
> the dark. I managed to install all of the packages, but there is no
> networking support to be found.. ditto for C compilers, none to be found

> Could someone provide docs, guidance, or just the wise advice to drop this
> project all together? :)

Hi Bill. 

I've got the same distribution.  It was given to me by a friend who
found it in his office, left by the previous tenant.  Unfortunately,
some of the disks were cracked, as someone had rested something rather
heavy on it. :(  Most upsetting.

It seems that the distribution that I have has no TCP/IP networking
either.  The box that they were in actually had written on it in marker
"No network stuff".  Now, I don't know what's actually on the disks, as
they're screwed (wanna make some dd images of them for me? :) ), and the
only information I have about them is that they are for "i386" machines.

I wish I could be more helpful, but you've gotten further than I, as I
can't even install it. :(

-- 


Tim Harrison
Network Engineer
harrison@timharrison.com
http://www.networklevel.com/

From leec at slip.net  Fri Oct 13 19:43:17 2000
From: leec at slip.net (Lee Courtney)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: IBM System 34
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010130725290.5551-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIDGFALDDAMKPHCMCAEFADCAA.leec@slip.net>

Sam,

I think the Computer History Center might be interested in this system
(right Dag?). We might even be able to ship along with another East coast
donation I'm working on. Let me know details if this is a good thing.
Thanks!

Lee Courtney
President

Monterey Software Group Inc.
1350 Pear Avenue, Suite J
Mountain View, California 94043-1302 U.S.A.
650-964-7052 voice
650-964-6735 fax

Advanced Authentication, Audit, and Access Control Tools and Consulting for
HP3000 Business Servers
http://www.editcorp.com/Businesses/MontereySoftware

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org
> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Vintage Computer
> Festival
> Sent: Friday, October 13, 2000 7:26 AM
> To: Classic Computers Mailing List
> Subject: IBM System 34
>
>
>
> Please reply to the original sender.
>
> Reply-To: CDyson@jones-blythe.com
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 10:23:02 -0500
> From: Carol Dyson <CDyson@jones-blythe.com>
> Subject: IBM System 34
>
> We are going to dispose of several terminals as well as System 34
> - we also
> have books from the initial installation, the system itself, plus CMAS
> software.  Would someone in the Illinois area be interested?  I am merely
> investigating this possibility as a way of not adding to our landfill and
> not destroying something that a collector might be interested in.  The
> System 34 is still installed and not quit ready for disposal, but
> terminals
> are.  Is this old enough to be of interest?
>
>
> Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage
> Computer Festival
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------
> International Man of Intrigue and Danger
> http://www.vintage.org
>
>
>


From rmeenaks at olf.com  Fri Oct 13 20:20:34 2000
From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: AT&T SysV UNIX v2.1 r4
References: <200010140012.e9E0CxL04428@bg-tc-ppp1181.monmouth.com>
Message-ID: <004501c0357c$f456f410$d4ea0191@olf.com>

I think you are mistaken.  This *is* SVR4 of AT&T Unix, but version 2.1  I
have this, but I do not have the TCP/IP or the C Compiler (well actually  I
have the Metaware C Compiler somewhere).  If I was you, I would just abandon
it and go for SCO Unix or Solaris x86 which only costs $10-$20.  I abandoned
SVR4 eons ago and moved over to Solaris x86...

Ram

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Pechter" <pechter@pechter.dyndns.org>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2000 8:12 PM
Subject: Re: AT&T SysV UNIX v2.1 r4



> TCP/IP, hah.  TCP/IP didn't show up in SysV until the 3.x range and
> didn't end up as standard until the SVR4 stuff.
>



From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Fri Oct 13 22:16:04 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: Speaking of cubes
In-Reply-To: <001701c034c8$1f683340$0264a8c0@mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001013221604.0caf0d00@mailhost.intellistar.net>

Francois,

   What the H___ is a Cobalt Cube? I've never heard of one.

    Joe

At 08:46 PM 10/12/00 -0700, you wrote:
>Hi,
>This may be off topic but I just have to brag
>I just received my cobalt cube today whoo hoo.
>Its is not 10 years old yet but has just been made obsolete by SUN who
>bought Cobalt a couple of weeks ago.
>It's brand new never openned in the original box.
>I just can't wait to setup my server. But I have to for now though.
>That's it
>Thank you for reading, you may return to your normal occupation now.
>
>Francois
>
>
>


From jhfine at idirect.com  Fri Oct 13 21:29:23 2000
From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: Microvax II
References: <39E74D09.CB7C3E16@home.net>
Message-ID: <39E7C503.B2B3AAFF@idirect.com>

>Neil Cherry wrote:

> BTW is it easy to design boards for the Microvax. This Analog board seems
> really simple. Designing an intelligent SCSI board wouldn't be a lot more
> difficult (I didn't say anything about the Vax driver).

Jerome Fine replies:

I doubt very much that the answer is YES!  Otherwise, it would have been
easy to produce the 3rd party SCSI host adapters and there would have
been a lot more competition - even with the $ US 100 license fee.

Now I have heard of someone attempting to produce a Qbus controller
for an IDE drive that would not even be MSCP - and probably put the
IDE drive right on the controller - not that MSCP would be all that
difficult in any case, but the primary objective was to keep the price
as low as possible and avoid the $ US 100 license fee from DEC.
The device would have looked like a very simple register driven
hard disk drive that already has a device driver for one of the OSs
in the PDP-11, not that a device driver for VMS could not also be
produced in that case.  I am not sure why it was never completed,
but if it was that simple, I am sure it would have been done.

There have been a large number of 3rd party Qbus boards from a few
companies in the past.  Did DEC discourage them - probably.  Was
it easy to design the boards.  More than likely, but maybe the cost
of fabrication was high or the volume too low.  Hard to know why
most - I think I know of just one left - are no longer in business
producing Qbus boards.  Of course, DEC was no longer producing
many Qbus boards even before it became Qed.  But there is
still a thriving trade in old Qbus boards.  I imagine that if it was
so easy to produce them new, that some small company would
come along and do so.  After all, cars have knock off parts.  But
maybe, again, the volume is just too low.

Sincerely yours,

Jerome Fine


From lemay at cs.umn.edu  Fri Oct 13 21:58:49 2000
From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: True colors
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.95.1001013150325.18413A-100000@agora.rdrop.com> from
 James Willing at "Oct 13, 2000 03:15:06 pm"
Message-ID: <200010140258.VAA25605@caesar.cs.umn.edu>

> >  Many of us have been flayed by Sellams volitile personality. He
> > only gave voice to my own indignation. While not giving him carte
> > blanche, ( I would flame just him as heavily should the situation 
> > arise), it should be remembered that PROFANEity is simply a
> > religio-cultural view. Remember Lenny Bruce ? From my point of 
> > view "bomb them back to the stone age" is profanity of the highest
> > order and there are many others accepted in everyday exchanges.

"Bomb them back to the stone age"? Hmm, that quote usually refers to
General Curtis LeMay. I suppose, being a LeMay, I should take offense
at that crack.

Or I could try to act like a civilised being, and let it be. I suggest
the rest of you do the same.

-Lawrence LeMay

From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Fri Oct 13 22:39:38 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: Microvax II
Message-ID: <00e601c03590$66551a70$9d789a8d@ajp166>

From: Jerome Fine <jhfine@idirect.com>


>I doubt very much that the answer is YES!  Otherwise, it would have been
>easy to produce the 3rd party SCSI host adapters and there would have
>been a lot more competition - even with the $ US 100 license fee.


the key is not to design a VMS driver so MSCP makes you immune to that.
If your willing then a bare SCSI interface is very doable, but the driver
will
be harder and slower even with DMA.  In VAX products there was
competition
around storage perfomance even back then.

>Now I have heard of someone attempting to produce a Qbus controller
>for an IDE drive that would not even be MSCP - and probably put the
>IDE drive right on the controller - not that MSCP would be all that


There is a design out there, crude and PIO only.  It would certainly work
as IDE can PIO pretty fast.  the only thing that makes Q-bus the least
bit
hard is that it has a read before write, that can mess up some register o
riented devices with an out of sequence read.

Allison


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Fri Oct 13 22:41:53 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: PDP-8 question...
Message-ID: <00e801c03590$b34489b0$9d789a8d@ajp166>

I just got a DATARAM DR118A core (16kx12) for Omnibus 
PDP-8s and one thing I really need to know.  How or where 
is the jumpers for the addressing?

Allison


From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Sat Oct 14 00:04:06 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: Intel MDS 225 (1st post)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001013141000.00cfe100@192.168.210.18>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001014000406.0937da1a@mailhost.intellistar.net>

Hi Bill,

At 02:10 PM 10/13/00 -0500, you wrote:
>Greetings,
>
>I subbed this list because I was given a rather large & heavy old machine 
>which the owner refers to as an "Intel MDS225" and I am totally devoid of 
>any official information about it. It consists of a large, white, main 
>unit, which houses a CRT display, power supply and a bank of slots, several 
>of which are occupied by plug-in cards.

   Cool!  I have one of these too. Mine started out as a 225 but has been
upgraded and modified. I have SOME of the docs for the system and they can
only be called MASSIVE! I have seven 8 1/2 x 11" binders and each one is
about 5" thick. I have several ICE units for it but I don't remember if I
have the docs for them.  The standard CPU in these was a 8080 or an 8085
but they could be upgraded to 8088 and I think to an 80186 or 80286. Mine
has the 8088 in it.  All the cards in it are a standard type card called
MultiBus. All Multibus are readilty identifable because they all have two
connectors on the bottom edge. One connector has 80 contacts spaced .156"
on center and the other has 60 contacts spaced .100 on center. The standard
card size is 12 x 6.75 inches.

   The operating system for these is ISIS (Intel Systtem Implementation
Supervisor).  This was later upgraded to ISIS-II. I think that's what I
have on mine but it's been so long since I used it that I'm not sure. They
also have a monitor ROM built into them. PL/M (aka PL/M-80), a Macro
Assembler, BASIC-80, iCIS-Cobol and Fortran-80 were all available for them.

   I don't have the specs for the 225 handy but it was a 220 with one
upgrade that I don't recall. I do have the 220 specs; 4 K ROM, 32K RAM
expandable to 64K, Eight level maskable priority interrupts, built in
interfaces for paper tape reader, PT reader/punch, printer and Universal
EPROM programmer. Compaible with standard iSBC expansion modules, integral
CRT with detachable full ASCII keyboard. 250K floppy drive. Standard
Multibus with multi-processor and DMA capabiltiy. 2000 character upper and
lower case display.   OH! and a 8080A was the standard CPU. 2.6 MHz CPU
clock speed.

>
>The unit also includes a separate keyboard, and a dual 8" floppy drive 
>housed in a cabinet (which is blue in color), and fits underneath the main 
>unit.

   You should have an 8" floppy drive standing vertically on the right side
of the CRT. The two drives in the separate box were an option. The earliest
ones were mounted vertically in a narrow (relatively!) box. The later ones
were mounted horizontally in a shorter but wider box. The later box is the
same width as the main chassis.   The orignal drives were single sided and
I think single density. Mine has been upgraded to Double sided Double
density. The main chassis should have a row of interrupt switchs on the
front of it. There is also a similar box that does not have the interrupt
switchs. That is an optional expansion chassis. I have the separate Intel
EPROM burner and Intel paper tape reader with mine. The EPROM burners are
common in this area but this is the first PT reader that I've seen. I also
found an Intel printer that's made to go with the unit but it was
incomplete so I passed it up.

  The best book that I've seen for getting started with these is "A Guide
to Intellec MicroComputer Developement Systems" by Daniel D. McCraken.
McCraken is better known for his PL/M book.



 Also supplied is a set of hardware that I believe is for in-circuit 
>emulation of an i8048 microprocessor. As I understand it, this machine was 
>used to develop firmware for several products which were controlled by 8048 
>/ 8749 micros. The owner also said that it runs (or ran, I have not put 
>power to it) the ISIS operating system.
>
>So what have I got here, and to what potentially interesting use might I 
>put it? Was it worth the agony of dragging it home and up the steps? :)

   It's an interesting system but very antiquated!  But FWIW I drug mine
home about 12 years ago and it's still here. That's saying a lot
considering how big it is!

     Joe
    
>
>Thanks,
>Bill Layer
>Sales Technician
><b.layer@vikingelectronics.com>
>
>+----------------------------------+
>      Viking Electronics, Inc.
>        1531 Industrial St.
>     Hudson, WI. 54016 - U.S.A
>       715.386.8861 ext. 210
>  <http://www.vikingelectronics.com>
>+----------------------------------+
>
>"Telecom Solutions for the 21st Century"
>
>  
>
>


From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Fri Oct 13 23:07:27 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:55 2005
Subject: Intel MDS 225 (1st post)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001013160952.00cca300@192.168.210.18>
References: <m13kB9G-000IyHC@p850ug1>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20001013141000.00cfe100@192.168.210.18>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001013230727.09377246@mailhost.intellistar.net>

HI Bill,

  I just got home and I'm catching up on my E-mail. I'm working on the
lastest ones so the answers will be somewhat mixed up but I'll try to
answer your questions.

At 04:20 PM 10/13/00 -0500, you wrote:

>
>I was hoping that I could get some useful OS running, CPM would be great; I 
>have several CPM machines already, so it's not totally foreign to me. Would 
>I need a different CPU card, or other hardware to run CP/M? For that 
>matter, who ported the CPM to this architecture? I assume that the MDS 
>architecture is totally weird & proprietary...


    Go to "http://www.gaby.de/efcpm.htm" and click on the interview with
Gary Kidall. Briefly, he said that he borrowed one of these machines from
Intel and wrote both PLM and CP/M on that machine. He said that Intel
bought PLM but not CPM. If you look at the examples in the code examples in
the CP/M manuals you'll see that the headers state that they were
configured for the Intel MDS machine. Furthermore I've been told that the
BDOS and BIOS on the **GEBERIC** CPM OS disks were already configured for
the Intel MDS. If that's true then you should be able to put a **GENERIC**
CPM boot disk in the MDS and boot it with little or no changes. If (when?)
I ever get a generic CPM disk I'd like to try it. Also by using the code
examples in the CPM manuals you should be able to reconfigure just about
any machine-varity of CPM to work on the MDS.

   Joe

From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Sat Oct 14 00:25:48 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: Intel MDS 225 (1st post)
In-Reply-To: <m13kB9G-000IyHC@p850ug1>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001013141000.00cfe100@192.168.210.18>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001014002548.093feb52@mailhost.intellistar.net>

Bill,

   I found a lis of the docs that I have in an old message. Here it is:

"
Intellec Series II CRT and Keyboard Interface Manual
Intellec Series II Microcomputer Development System Boot/Monitor Listing
Intellec Series II Model 22X/23X Installation Manual  Change 1
Installation Instructions Double Density Upgrade Kit Model 503  Rev B
Intellec Double Density Diskette Operating System Hardware Reference Manual

Book 2.
   (It's here somewhere! Just gotta find it!)

Book 3.
PL/M-86 Programming Manual for 8080/8085-Based Development Systems
#9800466-003 Rev C
MCS-86 Assembly Language Converter Operating Instructions for ISIS-II Users
#9800642-02
ASM86 Macro Assembler Operating Instructions for 8086-Bases Systems
#121628-003
iAPX 86,88 Family Utilities User’s Guide # 121616-003
iAPX 86,88 Family Utilities User’s Guide # 121616-002
ASM86 Language Reference Manual #121703-002

Book 4.
Intellec Series III Microcomputer Development System Product Overview
Intellec Series III Microcomputer Development System Programmer’s Reference
Manual
ISIS Credit CRT-based Text Editor User’s Guide
Alter Text Editor User’s Guide
iUP-200/201 Universal Programmer User’s Guide Order Number 162613-002
iUP-200/201 Universal Programmer User’s Guide Order Number 162613-001
ICE-86 In-Circuit Emulator Operating Instructions for ISIS-II Users
ICE-86A/ICE-88A MicroSystem In-Circuit Emulator Operating Instructions for
ISIS-II Users

Book  5.
ASM86 Language Reference Manual #121703-002
8086/8087/8088 Macro Assembly Language Reference Manual for 8086-Based
Development Systems #121627-001 Rev A
MCS-86 Assembly Language Converter Operating Instructions for ISIS-II Users
ICE-86 In-Circuit Emulator Operating Instructions for ISIS-II Users
iAPX 86,88 Family Utilities  User’s Guide for 8086-Based Development
Systems #121616-001 Rev A
ISIS-II User’s Guide

Book 6.
Intellec Series II Microcomputer Developement System Schematic Drawings
Order Number 9800554-04 Rev D

Book 7.
Intellec Series II Microcomputer Developement System Double-Density
Diskette Subsystem Order Number 9800425-02 Rev B

Book 8.
Product Service Support Plan, product MDS-5055 (internal Intel Document)

Book 9.
A guide to Intellec Microcomputer Developement Systems Order Number 9800558B


   I also have a bunch of software for it but I haven't made a list."

   This is only a fraction of the stuff that was available from Intel!
There's a long list of the stuff that was available in 1979 in McCraken's
book. I'm sure Intel released more later.

    Joe


From rdd at smart.net  Fri Oct 13 23:38:19 2000
From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: True colors
In-Reply-To: <200010140258.VAA25605@caesar.cs.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010140032170.24521-100000@smarty.smart.net>

On Fri, 13 Oct 2000, Lawrence LeMay wrote:
> "Bomb them back to the stone age"? Hmm, that quote usually refers to
> General Curtis LeMay. I suppose, being a LeMay, I should take offense
> at that crack.

While I don't know what context that quote was used in, ir who it was
about, it sounds like a rather neat quote!  Is it for some reason now
considered "politically incorrect"?  If so, I like it all the more!
:-)

[quickly donning asbestos suit!]

> Or I could try to act like a civilised being, and let it be. I suggest
> the rest of you do the same.

That sounds like good advice.  I shall try to avoid any flames or
flamebait for a while.  There are old systems to be collected and
restored, and I feel bad about wasting time and bandwidth with
off-topic nonsense, when that time could have been used by us all
for more productive purposes (e.g. - restoring older systems and
otherwise hacking them)

--
Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of
All Rights Reserved            Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to
rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd   a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD 





From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Sat Oct 14 00:42:00 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: True colors
In-Reply-To: <200010140258.VAA25605@caesar.cs.umn.edu>
References: <Pine.BSF.3.95.1001013150325.18413A-100000@agora.rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001014004200.400fae82@mailhost.intellistar.net>

At 09:58 PM 10/13/00 -0500, Lawrence LeMay wrote:
>> >  Many of us have been flayed by Sellams volitile personality. He
>> > only gave voice to my own indignation. While not giving him carte
>> > blanche, ( I would flame just him as heavily should the situation 
>> > arise), it should be remembered that PROFANEity is simply a
>> > religio-cultural view. Remember Lenny Bruce ? From my point of 
>> > view "bomb them back to the stone age" is profanity of the highest
>> > order and there are many others accepted in everyday exchanges.
>
>"Bomb them back to the stone age"? Hmm, that quote usually refers to
>General Curtis LeMay. 

   Actually it's a quote from General LeMay and refers to the North
Vietnamese.

    Joe


>I suppose, being a LeMay, I should take offense
>at that crack.
>
>Or I could try to act like a civilised being, and let it be. I suggest
>the rest of you do the same.
>
>-Lawrence LeMay
>


From Innfogra at aol.com  Sat Oct 14 00:55:11 2000
From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: Intel MDS 225 and Intel 310 info
Message-ID: <b7.7931241.27194f3f@aol.com>

I, too, have one of these kicking around. Mine has a bad Ball Monitor inside. 
I believe the MDS 225 is the Development System III mentioned in Joe's 
documents in an earlier post. I used to play with these about 9 years ago 
when we bought truckloads from Intel. 

If you have questions contact me off list. Most info has been covered on the 
other posts.

I think it is worth collecting. There are not many in the hands of hobbyists 
and collectors. I used to have CPM for this system but I am not sure I still 
do. If I find it I will let the list know.

I bet InBus Engineering still has cards and parts for these systems, if not 
docs and SW. I know I sold them thousands of dollars worth of parts, 
especially for the 310 systems many years ago. I still have some 310 multibus 
systems & parts.

Their contact info is :
compumart@inbus.com
925-454-2561 voice
925-454-2501 fax
InBus Engineering,
6233 Industrial Way
Livermore, CA 94550

Unfortunately they realize they have almost the sole supply for these old 
systems and their prices used to reflect that. I haven't talked with them in 
years but they still advertise in Compu-Mart and the Processor.

Paxton
Portland, OR

From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Sat Oct 14 02:12:22 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: Obsolete, was Speaking of cubes
In-Reply-To: <20001012212108.N17446@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com>
References: <14822.27797.609494.969610@phaduka.neurotica.com>; from
 mcguire@neurotica.com on Thu, Oct 12, 2000 at 09:59:49PM -0400
 <001701c034c8$1f683340$0264a8c0@mediaone.net>
 <14822.27797.609494.969610@phaduka.neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <l03102801b60db27c4ed1@[192.168.1.4]>

I just peeked in the dictionary, Obsolete means "no longer in use". By that
definition many things are clearly not obsolete, they are just not in the
front lines anymore. What completely bends our perception is that most
tracking is done based on cash flow, purchase of new hardware and software.
Older machines shift very little cash, and often zero additonal money is
spent on software, so no tracking, it drops off the radar.

Ranking machines based on the cost of ownership, and thinking more is
better is kind of nuts isn't it?

I brought home 5 Compaq Prolinea 575 desktops this week. Nobody at the
scrapyard wanted them as complete computers. Parasites had already looted
the ram out of three of them, and were eyeballing the 420 MB hard drives,
when I decided it was ridiculous to allow that to happen (W95 that works
for the 575 was about all that was on them, but sheesh, why effectively
throw that away?). With modest effort (considering I know nothing about a
PC) I got them running on my LAN and surfing the web via ethernet and my
cable modem. Slow, but not THAT slow, mostly they appeared to be suffering
from just 16 MB of ram (with 6 72 pin slots that won't be too painfull to
fix). A closer look at the motherboard revealed a couple PCI slots between
the ISA, so I figure with decent NICs these old crates will wail running
Linux doing cheesy network duties (ftp, email, dns, and web for local use
only).



From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Sat Oct 14 02:29:00 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: NEC APC available
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001013124451.00b3b8e0@binhost.com>
References: <l03102800b60ce780512e@[192.168.1.4]>
 <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010122204310.4935-100000@siconic.com>
 <4.3.2.7.0.20001012182946.02872900@pc>
Message-ID: <l03102803b60dbb28598d@[192.168.1.4]>

>>Goodwill and most schools around SoCal have no interest in older systems
>>(non pentium 166 mmx and above). Exceptions exist, but Goodwill I know
>>dumps all older systems in bins that go directly to a scrapper at breakage
>>prices.
>
>Gee, Goodwill is where I've gotten all of my old systems.  PS/2's and
>PS/1's, Compaq 286's, old MacSE's, etc....they seem to put it all out.

I mean here in SoCal. Our Goodwill is spoiled, they have a deal with Target
for returns, and recently started "selling" stuff for Wyle that is new old
stock. I rarely even bother to look anymore, better sources, less wasted
time.



From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com  Sat Oct 14 01:35:54 2000
From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: RL02 Sanity Check
In-Reply-To: <m13k929-000IyRC@p850ug1>
References: <3.0.5.32.20001013083830.00986280@pop.sttl.uswest.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001013233554.00961100@pop.sttl.uswest.net>

At 18:54 13-10-2000 +0100, Tony wrote:

>The spindle motor circuit on an RL is a little more complicated than just 
>an SSR. From what I remember, a signal from the sector transducer is 
>compared to a divided-down version of the clock from the controller. The 
>result is used to control the speed of the spindle motor.

	<snip>

	Thanks, Tony. Lots of good info I'd either forgotten about or neglected.
What I'm trying to remember now is why I thought the RL02 spindle drive was
a simple on/off... Must have been thinking about a different unit...


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies
http://www.bluefeathertech.com  // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com
Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 (Extra class as of June-2K)
"I'll get a life when someone demonstrates to me that it would be
superior to what I have now..." (Gym Z. Quirk, aka Taki Kogoma).

From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu  Sat Oct 14 02:13:27 2000
From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: Mac Plus or Mac Classic?
Message-ID: <200010140713.AAA10128@stockholm.ptloma.edu>

Still looking for a real 68000 Mac to play ZeroGravity on (68010 would
probably work too but let's stick to what I know :-) Anyone getting rid
of a Mac Plus or original Mac Classic, or maybe even a 128K Mac? ;-)
Seriously, please reply off-list if you have one you're willing to sell.

-- 
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
 Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- A good pun is its own reword. ----------------------------------------------

From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com  Sat Oct 14 02:23:48 2000
From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: For the record... (was: True Colors)
In-Reply-To: <39E70E49.17012.384DAAC@localhost>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010122249570.4935-100000@siconic.com>
 <3.0.5.32.20001012231719.00958a30@pop.sttl.uswest.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001014002348.0095fb20@pop.sttl.uswest.net>

At 13:29 13-10-2000 -0400, L. Walker wrote:

> And I wouldn't exactly characterize the original post as
>polite, which referred to the "idiot who wrote the book on collecting
>computers". I can only assume this referred to Kevin Stumpf  who is
>a sometime contributer to the list and has gone to great lengths to 
>preserve old computers, and started many years before it became 
>trendy.

	<snip>

	I should actually have clarified my own position. I do NOT agree with R.D.
Davis that the VCF, or similar events, are responsible for the decline of
Interesting Stuff at the ham swap meets, nor the inflated prices one
sometimes sees for such gear when it does show up. That whole idea seems
silly to me.

	As for Kevin Stumpf's book on collecting, I'm not prepared to either
condemn it or praise it at this point because I've not read it.

	I see the VCF events themselves as a solid and worthwhile contribution to
the history of computing technology. I thought it was a good idea when
Sellam first mentioned it to me all those years ago at Quinntronics, and I
said as much back then: I still think they're a good idea in and of
themselves. 

	The fact that I disagree with the mannerisms and online conduct of VCF's
creator is irrelevant (at least to me). ;-)

	The "decline" mentioned earlier is, I believe, only one symptom of a much
deeper set of issues that I would choose not to go into on the list because
(a), I can get pretty wordy with a topic like that; And (b), I'm not
certain how on-topic it would be for the list overall.

> Many of us have been flayed by Sellams volitile personality. He
>only gave voice to my own indignation. While not giving him cart...

	<snip>

	I know I said I wouldn't get back into this, but I feel compelled to say
this much. 

	I will agree with your first statement (that many of us have been 'flayed'
as it were). What I cannot understand is why Sellam feels such a need to
enroll the entire list in his (often violent) disagreements with others.

	There's absolutely NOTHING wrong with disagreeing with someone... Lord
knows I've done it plenty of times, others have disagreed with me, and I'd
actually be pretty darn worried if people started agreeing with each other
ALL the time!

	However, splattering one's spleen all over a (relatively) public mailing
list that is designed to benefit ALL participants is not something that I
can ever agree with. It's just plain unprofessional. THAT's what prompted
me to ask his ISP if they wanted to get involved.

	Is there anyone on the list who DOESN'T think that such arguments are best
settled via private E-mail? Even if the eventual "settlement" takes the
form of one party blocking the other's messages? (as I already have).

	I will admit... I'm still chuckling over the fact that he took the quote I
have in my signature block so very seriously. Thanks, Sellam, for a good
laugh.

	Ok... that's it from me on this topic. Definitely! I have lots of other
things to worry about. Like getting ready for my Cancun trip at the end of
next week. Hardly computing-related, but bound to be fun in any case.

	Keep the peace(es).


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies
http://www.bluefeathertech.com  // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com
Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 (Extra class as of June-2K)
"I'll get a life when someone demonstrates to me that it would be
superior to what I have now..." (Gym Z. Quirk, aka Taki Kogoma).

From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com  Sat Oct 14 02:26:57 2000
From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: DSSI: What was it like?
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001014002657.009633a0@pop.sttl.uswest.net>

	DEC's proprietary DSSI interface: Can anyone give me some idea of why DEC
came up with it, what benefits it offered over, say, SCSI, and whether it
was entirely proprietary or related to something like IPI?

	For that matter, what the heck did DSSI abbreviate? My guess: Distributed
Storage Subsystem Interface.

	Web sites, FAQs, or commentary are all welcome as this is pure curiousity
on my part. Thanks much.



-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies
http://www.bluefeathertech.com  // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com
Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 (Extra class as of June-2K)
"I'll get a life when someone demonstrates to me that it would be
superior to what I have now..." (Gym Z. Quirk, aka Taki Kogoma).

From transit at lerctr.org  Sat Oct 14 03:17:31 2000
From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: NEC APC available
In-Reply-To: <l03102803b60dbb28598d@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SV4.3.96.001014030959.22136A-100000@lerami.lerctr.org>



On Fri, 13 Oct 2000, Mike Ford wrote:

> 
> I mean here in SoCal. Our Goodwill is spoiled, they have a deal with Target
> for returns, and recently started "selling" stuff for Wyle that is new old
> stock. 

Ouch...

>I rarely even bother to look anymore, better sources, less wasted
> time.

How about Salvation Army thrift stores?

Occasionally, I go "junk sailing" (sic). There are a cluster of
thrift stores around Canoga Park, quite a few along Main Street
in Ventura, and still more in Santa Barbara. (Rich people's junk!
Whoo-hoo).

Another "junk store trail" is via the Inland Empire, hitting
stores in Covina, Azusa, Pomona, La Verne, Fontana and Riverside.

Sometimes the most "classic" thing in these stores is an old 
8-track compact stereo that doesn't work. But what you can
find may surprise you. I found an old Commodore Pet (with the
tiny keyboard) in one of these places (but they wanted way too
much--like $60...)


From foo at siconic.com  Sat Oct 14 03:41:48 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: Obsolete, was Speaking of cubes
In-Reply-To: <l03102801b60db27c4ed1@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010140140311.6829-100000@siconic.com>

On Fri, 13 Oct 2000, Mike Ford wrote:

> I just peeked in the dictionary, Obsolete means "no longer in use". By that
> definition many things are clearly not obsolete, they are just not in the
> front lines anymore. What completely bends our perception is that most

Perhaps "outmoded" is a more apt adjective to use.

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From foo at siconic.com  Sat Oct 14 03:52:40 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: For the record... (was: True Colors)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001014002348.0095fb20@pop.sttl.uswest.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010140144560.6829-100000@siconic.com>

On Sat, 14 Oct 2000, Bruce Lane wrote:

> 	I will agree with your first statement (that many of us have
> been 'flayed' as it were). What I cannot understand is why Sellam
> feels such a need to enroll the entire list in his (often violent)
> disagreements with others.

It's really bizarre that you would make this complaint, since in all the
times I've sent you off-list replies to prevent turning the list into a
war zone, you've gone ahead and posted my private messages back to the
list--breaking all sorts of rules on netiquette, which you claim to hold
so highly.  How do you explain this?

I think a big part of the problem is that when I point out how some person
has their head up their ass, other people take it upon themselves to get
upset.  Bruce, you have your head up your ass.  Who's turn is it now to be
upset?

> 	Is there anyone on the list who DOESN'T think that such
> arguments are best settled via private E-mail? Even if the eventual

Apparently you, as I've explained above.

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From foo at siconic.com  Sat Oct 14 03:53:39 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: NEC APC available
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SV4.3.96.001014030959.22136A-100000@lerami.lerctr.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010140153110.6829-100000@siconic.com>

On Sat, 14 Oct 2000, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote:

> Sometimes the most "classic" thing in these stores is an old 8-track
> compact stereo that doesn't work. But what you can find may surprise
> you. I found an old Commodore Pet (with the tiny keyboard) in one of
> these places (but they wanted way too much--like $60...)

You could've probably talked them down a little but even at $60 that's a
steal for an original PET.

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From transit at lerctr.org  Sat Oct 14 05:44:14 2000
From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: NEC APC available
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010140153110.6829-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SV4.3.96.001014054246.26988N-100000@lerami.lerctr.org>



On Sat, 14 Oct 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote:

> On Sat, 14 Oct 2000, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote:
> 
> > Sometimes the most "classic" thing in these stores is an old 8-track
> > compact stereo that doesn't work. But what you can find may surprise
> > you. I found an old Commodore Pet (with the tiny keyboard) in one of
> > these places (but they wanted way too much--like $60...)
> 
> You could've probably talked them down a little but even at $60 that's a
> steal for an original PET.

Perhaps on E-bay or VCF or places where people know what it is. I sort of
expect thrift store prices to be a bit lower, cause I don't expect thrift
store management to really know what they have. Of course, they might
have gotten more savvy over the years....


From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org  Sat Oct 14 06:51:21 2000
From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: AT&T SysV UNIX v2.1 r4
In-Reply-To: <004501c0357c$f456f410$d4ea0191@olf.com> from Ram Meenakshisundaram
 at "Oct 13, 2000 09:20:34 pm"
Message-ID: <200010141151.e9EBpMB00604@bg-tc-ppp926.monmouth.com>

> I think you are mistaken.  This *is* SVR4 of AT&T Unix, but version 2.1  I
> have this, but I do not have the TCP/IP or the C Compiler (well actually  I
> have the Metaware C Compiler somewhere).  If I was you, I would just abandon
> it and go for SCO Unix or Solaris x86 which only costs $10-$20.  I abandoned
> SVR4 eons ago and moved over to Solaris x86...
> 
> Ram

OK... The original post called it System V2.1 which was the original
pre SVR4 stuff. 

There is such stuff and I've worked with it.

Bill

From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Sat Oct 14 08:18:52 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: Obsolete, was Speaking of cubes
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010140140311.6829-100000@siconic.com>
References: <l03102801b60db27c4ed1@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001014081852.36c7b7ce@mailhost.intellistar.net>

At 01:41 AM 10/14/00 -0700, Sellam wrote:
>On Fri, 13 Oct 2000, Mike Ford wrote:
>
>> I just peeked in the dictionary, Obsolete means "no longer in use". By that
>> definition many things are clearly not obsolete, they are just not in the
>> front lines anymore. What completely bends our perception is that most
>
>Perhaps "outmoded" is a more apt adjective to use.

   Th term "obselete" is fine but we have to remember that it's just a
marketing term. The computer that I'm typing this on is considered
"obselete" but it gets the work done.

  My $0.02 worth,

    Joe


From jhfine at idirect.com  Sat Oct 14 09:25:36 2000
From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: Obsolete, was Speaking of cubes
References: <l03102801b60db27c4ed1@[192.168.1.4]> <3.0.1.16.20001014081852.36c7b7ce@mailhost.intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <39E86CE0.2F77335F@idirect.com>

>Joe wrote:

> >> I just peeked in the dictionary, Obsolete means "no longer in use". By that
> >> definition many things are clearly not obsolete, they are just not in the
> >> front lines anymore. What completely bends our perception is that most
> >Perhaps "outmoded" is a more apt adjective to use.
>    Th term "obselete" is fine but we have to remember that it's just a
> marketing term. The computer that I'm typing this on is considered
> "obselete" but it gets the work done.
>   My $0.02 worth

Jerome Fine replies:

I could not agree more - that "obsolete" has become a marketing term.
Joe's post is being answered on a Pentium 166 MMX system using
Netscape V4.03 and W95.  And in addition, I am still using an
UltraStor 12F24 ESDI controller with 1.2 GByte Hitachi DK516-15
hard disk drives.  Mind you, I have 96 MBytes of memory, so the
system is reasonable fast.  But the phone modem is still only 34K.

Does it work, of course.  But if I went into a computer store to
buy one, I would be told it was "obsolete" - actually meaning that
there is too little profit margin to sell this old system new or otherwise.

Marketing has taken over many words in the language, the most
glaring of which is the question:
"WHAT  DO  YOU  NEED?"
Whenever I am asked that question, I immediately set the salesperson
straight:
"I  NEED  NOTHING!  And if you persist in that hallucination, then
you will find that I will definitely not purchase anything you have for
sale for which I may even have a preference."  ("After all, if you insist
that everything that you have here for sale is what I need and I do not
need any of those items, you are not going to be able to sell any of them
to me.  So for your own benefit, you would best be advised to change
your marketing strategy." - Implied thought process which I am attempting
to communicate to the sales person)  While some sales people
take that answer as an insult and go look for greener pastures (suckers),
I find that it tends to set the record straight and I can discuss the product
on a more reasonable basis.  And I rarely get the "Why are you wasting
my time attitude?" when I do not make a purchase.

Just a $ CAN 0.02 addition (about $ US 0.012 at the moment).

Sincerely yours,

Jerome Fine


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Sat Oct 14 09:57:57 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: DSSI: What was it like?
Message-ID: <010701c035ef$d5047970$9d789a8d@ajp166>

From: Bruce Lane <kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com>

> DEC's proprietary DSSI interface: Can anyone give me some idea of why
DEC
>came up with it, what benefits it offered over, say, SCSI, and whether
it
>was entirely proprietary or related to something like IPI?


At the time it was developed SCSI was maybe SCSI-1 or II and way short on
perfomance, limited in number of possible connected devices and short on
cable length.  DSSI like many of the DEC storage interconnect was trying
to
address problems like cable length (wanted longer), rate of
transmission(faster)
and cluster interconnect.  It's also a protocal and within that it
addresses
best ways to move data faster and route it.

> For that matter, what the heck did DSSI abbreviate? My guess:
Distributed
>Storage Subsystem Interface.


Yes.

Allison


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Sat Oct 14 10:01:39 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: Intel MDS 225 (1st post)
Message-ID: <010801c035ef$d5dd7450$9d789a8d@ajp166>


-----Original Message-----

>> I was hoping that I could get some useful OS running, CPM would be
great; I
>> have several CPM machines already, so it's not totally foreign to me.
Would
>> I need a different CPU card, or other hardware to run CP/M? For that


The bios would have to know how to handle the disk as it does single
denisty
and a M^2FM double density that is unique to Intel boxen.  The single
density
mode will however run standard CPM (BIOS is in the alteration guide) and
usually on standard distrubtion 8" SSSD.

>code should work on your machine, as I recall. The main issue
>is that you'll most likely have to transfer things through a
>serial port to the MDS. It's a pain but it can be done.


You can use ISIS to help or hand push it some of it.

Allison



From jhfine at idirect.com  Sat Oct 14 10:20:31 2000
From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: Microvax II
References: <00e601c03590$66551a70$9d789a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <39E879BF.9D464598@idirect.com>

>ajp166 wrote:

> >I doubt very much that the answer is YES!  Otherwise, it would have been
> >easy to produce the 3rd party SCSI host adapters and there would have
> >been a lot more competition - even with the $ US 100 license fee.
> There is a design out there, crude and PIO only.  It would certainly work
> as IDE can PIO pretty fast.  the only thing that makes Q-bus the least bit
> hard is that it has a read before write, that can mess up some register o
> riented devices with an out of sequence read.

Jerome Fine replies:

Actually, since I am not a VAX/VMS person, I was thinking more along
the lines of a PDP-11 and RT-11.  But since I know that a Qbus host
adapter such as a CMD 220/M (CMD) and a SQ706A (Dialog) both
function for either PDP-11 CPUs or uVAX II CPUs on any OS which
uses the MSCP interface, I guess that I am too out of touch with the
problems of what an IDE Qbus controller might have difficulty with.

And in particular, I was sort of referring to using an IDE Qbus controller
with John Wilson's adaptation of the Russian HD(X).SYS that he has
so conveniently made available in E11.  There has been some discussion
about producing an IDE/SCSI version of a Qbus controller which would
be able to be a REAL Qbus PDP-11 controller with an RT-11 software
device driver identical in code to the HD(X).SYS used with the E11
emulator.  At some point, I even wrote the trivial modifications needed
to allow a 256 MByte (8 * 32 MByte partitions) for a 256 MByte
container file on a hard disk drive.  In order to keep everything simple
just for testing purposes, I limited the UNIT number of the container
file to ZERO (MOUNT   HD0:  BIGFILE.DSK).  Within RT-11, I
was still able to use all 8 * 32 MByte partitions as HD0: => HD7:
and I could have easily added extended device support as well and
allowed a container file of 2 GBytes and 64 partitions.  In point of
fact, I have volunteered to produce such a full device driver for
RT-11 should anyone ever produce such as IDE Qbus controller
for a PDP-11.  And for TSX-PLUS as well.  Eventually, I would
also attempt to add the ability to have a mapping table (similar to
what is present in an MSCP device driver) which for both RT-11
and especially TSX-PLUS would allow different jobs to have
different mapping tables for at least some - probably half - of
the "logical" devices.

If anyone who is still using TSX-PLUS (on either real or emulated
hardware) could also use that for the current MSCP device driver,
I would be interested in helping make DU.TSX capable of allowing
"SET  DU4:  PORT=0,UNIT=1,PART=64.,JOB=16."
along with
"SET  DU  SHOW=16."
as an example of what I suggest would be useful and needed.
The addition of JOB in either RT-11 or TSX-PLUS as a mapping
table parameter would allow a huge increase in the number of
physical partitions that could used at the same time.  It would also
be possible to extend the maximum partition number from 255.
to 65535. even without adding the JOB parameter, not that I
am recommending that option since taking care of 64 partitions
is already difficult enough.  Using all 256 partitions on an 8 GByte
drive seems far too difficult and managing to keep track of more
than 1024 partitions on a 32 GBytes drive seems almost impossible
unless there was some over-riding need for a particular application
that required that much hard disk storage.  The key point is that
both MSCP and the HD(X).SYS device drivers in RT-11 and
TSX-PLUS seem to allow a 32 bit block number from the
software point of view.  Thus I see no technical reason from a
software point of view why that 32 bit block number could not
be passed to the hardware.  But, managing 65536 (decimal)
partitions in an RT-11 environment using 4 TeraBytes of on-line
hard disk drive storage is not a situation I would recommend.
On the other hand, it could be done - from a software technical
point of view - if the hardware can manage 32 bit block numbers
which I understand is possible.

Anyone out there who wants to try?  I would be very pleased to
swap some of my time for a couple of SCSI 32 GByte hard drives
to test out the software.  The only problem is that the only SCSI
host adapters I have are the 50 pin type (CQD 220/M), so there
might be a problem if there are no drives larger than 8 Gbytes which
have the old SCSI-2 50 pin interface. On the other hand, if
an 8 GByte drive (there are many ST410800N drives available
for under $ US 100 each) is sufficient, I would be just as happy
to swap my time for 4 of those drives and enhance either the
DUX.SYS or the DU.TSX device drivers to allow a JOB
parameter.  I don't expect anyone to actually ask!!!!!!!!!!!

Sincerely yours,

Jerome Fine


From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com  Sat Oct 14 11:14:39 2000
From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: Thrifts (was Re: NEC APC available)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SV4.3.96.001014054246.26988N-100000@lerami.lerctr.org
 >
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010140153110.6829-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001014091132.02669bb0@208.226.86.10>


>Perhaps on E-bay or VCF or places where people know what it is. I sort of
>expect thrift store prices to be a bit lower, cause I don't expect thrift
>store management to really know what they have. Of course, they might
>have gotten more savvy over the years....

And this is exactly true. Thrift stores are run by people, many of those 
people have access to "the web" and many of them know what Ebay is. One of 
the thrift stores that is a couple of blocks from here had a C64 in box 
with a $50 price tag on it, on the tag it said "Sells on Ebay for over 
$100" (once maybe :-) They still are willing to haggle but at least a few 
in the sillycon valley have heard about their increasing value. By the same 
token there is a goodwill in Sunnyvale that advertises "New lower prices!" 
:-).

--Chuck





From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Sat Oct 14 12:21:53 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: Intel MDS 225 (1st post)
In-Reply-To: <010801c035ef$d5dd7450$9d789a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001014122153.45d77038@mailhost.intellistar.net>

At 11:01 AM 10/14/00 -0400, you wrote:
>
>-----Original Message-----
>
>>> I was hoping that I could get some useful OS running, CPM would be
>great; I
>>> have several CPM machines already, so it's not totally foreign to me.
>Would
>>> I need a different CPU card, or other hardware to run CP/M? For that
>
>
>The bios would have to know how to handle the disk as it does single
>denisty
>and a M^2FM double density that is unique to Intel boxen.  The single
>density
>mode will however run standard CPM (BIOS is in the alteration guide) and
>usually on standard distrubtion 8" SSSD.
>
>>code should work on your machine, as I recall. The main issue
>>is that you'll most likely have to transfer things through a
>>serial port to the MDS. It's a pain but it can be done.
>
>
>You can use ISIS to help or hand push it some of it.


   That should be EASY to do by using the ROM monitor. You shouldn't even
need OS software to do it. The monitor command R0 reads from the paper tape
port. I imagine that you could use another device to input data there
instead of the PT reader. You could then use the monitor commands to write
to a disk and you could concievably create your own OS disk that way. If
nothing else you can use the monitor to store anything as a block of data
on a disk and then retrieve and run it later using the monitor.

     Joe
>
>Allison
>
>
>


From lemay at cs.umn.edu  Sat Oct 14 11:21:54 2000
From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: PDP-8 question...
In-Reply-To: <00e801c03590$b34489b0$9d789a8d@ajp166> from ajp166 at "Oct 13,
 2000 11:41:53 pm"
Message-ID: <200010141621.LAA26280@caesar.cs.umn.edu>

Well, mine is set for fields 4-7, but I dont have any docs. And since
its working i'm hesitant to tear it apart.

-Lawrence LeMay

> I just got a DATARAM DR118A core (16kx12) for Omnibus 
> PDP-8s and one thing I really need to know.  How or where 
> is the jumpers for the addressing?
> 
> Allison
> 


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Sat Oct 14 11:27:47 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: Microvax II
Message-ID: <001101c035fc$88f45ac0$9d789a8d@ajp166>

From: Jerome Fine <jhfine@idirect.com>


>Actually, since I am not a VAX/VMS person, I was thinking more along
>the lines of a PDP-11 and RT-11.  But since I know that a Qbus host
>adapter such as a CMD 220/M (CMD) and a SQ706A (Dialog) both
>function for either PDP-11 CPUs or uVAX II CPUs on any OS which
>uses the MSCP interface, I guess that I am too out of touch with the
>problems of what an IDE Qbus controller might have difficulty with.


The key is MSCP is not a trivial protocal and the underlying hardware
to do that requires muscle in the form of a fast cpu.

IDE is fairly stupid and easy to interface as PIO, DMA would not be that
bad for vax or PDP11 but you would pay for it by needing drivers as
there are none.

>And in particular, I was sort of referring to using an IDE Qbus
controller
>with John Wilson's adaptation of the Russian HD(X).SYS that he has
>so conveniently made available in E11.  There has been some discussion
>about producing an IDE/SCSI version of a Qbus controller which would
>be able to be a REAL Qbus PDP-11 controller with an RT-11 software
>device driver identical in code to the HD(X).SYS used with the E11


I think I was part of that discussion too.

RT-11 and the overlay TSX-11 are easy compared to something like VMS.
Unix sources permitting would be doable.


>Anyone out there who wants to try?  I would be very pleased to
>swap some of my time for a couple of SCSI 32 GByte hard drives
>to test out the software.  The only problem is that the only SCSI
>host adapters I have are the 50 pin type (CQD 220/M), so there


I've run my PDP11 with SCSI CQD already as it's MSCP, Same
for VAX/VMS (it's in my MVII).

It's limited to 4 or 8gb and SCSI-II so forget the reall monster drives.

>might be a problem if there are no drives larger than 8 Gbytes which
>have the old SCSI-2 50 pin interface. On the other hand, if


Its pretty easy to fine drives inthe 2-9gb range still and they are
cheap.

The idea of such huge drive with RT11 and friends is that is wasted.
I use D540s (31mb) and swap them like carts as I have a bunch of em
and they are plenty big enough.  Drives in the 120-400MB range are
plentyful for me, one 200mb drive would take all the binaries and
sources I have with room to spare that aren't already on Tims CD.
Whats the point?

The value of IDE on Qbus is cheap easy to find drives in the sub
(at the time) 1gb class.

Allison




From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com  Sat Oct 14 11:35:19 2000
From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: DSSI: What was it like?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001014002657.009633a0@pop.sttl.uswest.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001014092416.025a7e20@208.226.86.10>


>         DEC's proprietary DSSI interface: Can anyone give me some idea of 
> why DEC
>came up with it, what benefits it offered over, say, SCSI, and whether it
>was entirely proprietary or related to something like IPI?
>
>         For that matter, what the heck did DSSI abbreviate? My guess: 
> Distributed
>Storage Subsystem Interface.

I'm working on a web site and I'm working on a driver for NetBSD :-) But 
from what I've found DSSI was DEC's proposal for either SCSI-1 or SCSI-2. 
Like SCSI it is an 8 bit parallel interface, unlike SCSI it is only a 
"transport", which is to say it has primitives for passing chunks of data 
(packets) from one device on the bus to another, but it does _not_ have any 
"disk" operations. This is what allows it to be used as both an interface 
to DSSI disks and as a cluster interconnect to other systems. On the DSSI 
bus one can simply send a bunch of data to some target and it is up to the 
target to understand what you are talking about.

This was one of the reasons I initially couldn't write a device driver for 
it since the disk operations are MSCP and that wasn't defined in the 
KA640-TM. I've since acquired a copy of the "secret" MSCP manual and the 
source code to the Ultrix driver. The latter however is not as useful as I 
would have hoped.

One of the more interesting aspects of this bus is that every "target" is 
an independent entity (its more like an 8 bit parallel network than an I/O 
bus). Thus disks have their own controller running their own OS etc and you 
can actually "connect" to the disk and run software on it (notably the 
formatter and parameter setup stuff). This also means that sharing a disk 
amongst multiple systems on the same DSSI bus is not technically very 
difficult, you just put another system on the bus and send the disk 
commands and get in line :-)

The challenges of course are keeping track of who has files open and what 
they are doing to them. This requires some cooperation on the part of the 
disk drive, but it is provided for in the MSCP protocol ( you can "lock" 
segments of the drive to your system.)

All in all I think it is superior to SCSI in many ways but because DEC held 
on to it so tightly it was never adopted beyond DEC machines.

As for the abbreviation DSSI I've heard two different expansions used:
         "Digital Standard Storage Interconnect"
         "Digital Standard System Interconnect"
I've yet to find something that pins it down definitively.

--Chuck




From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com  Sat Oct 14 11:40:51 2000
From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: ebay bid lists
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001014093841.025a8ea0@208.226.86.10>

Has anyone else noticed that last night Ebay changed the way they display 
bids to include _all_ bids, even repeats by the same person. Interesting 
bit of information that is. And to bring it on topic, there is a VAX 
4000/VLC* (nothing special) that is up to $170! That's pretty amazing, and 
to think I sold one at the VCF for $40 :-)

--Chuck

* Ebay item #461408005


From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com  Sat Oct 14 11:57:13 2000
From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: DSSI: What was it like?
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001014092416.025a7e20@208.226.86.10>
References: <3.0.5.32.20001014002657.009633a0@pop.sttl.uswest.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001014095610.00a30580@208.226.86.10>


>As for the abbreviation DSSI I've heard two different expansions used:
>         "Digital Standard Storage Interconnect"
>         "Digital Standard System Interconnect"
>I've yet to find something that pins it down definitively.

<http://support.activeanswers.compaq.com/forum/aca-1/dispatch.exe/AASupport/docProfile/100211/7172884>


Ok, I pinned it down on the Compaq site. It is
         Digital Storage Systems Interconnect





From univac2 at earthlink.net  Sat Oct 14 13:39:41 2000
From: univac2 at earthlink.net (Owen Robertson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: IBM Series/1 Minicomputer
Message-ID: <39E8A86D.7A295E17@earthlink.net>

Someone is offering me an IBM Series/1 minicomputer with all manuals, an
8" diskette drive, and a CDC Hard disk, for $100 plus shipping. Shipping
for the processor will be about $25, and between $50 and $75 for the
diskette drive. Shipping for the hard disk will be hundreds, so I won't
be getting it. I have three questions:

1. What can y'all tell me about everything? I know almost nothing about
it.

2. Is it worth getting the processor, manuals, and diskette drive,? It
comes with some disks, but I don't know what's on them.

3. Does anyone have an operating system for it?

Thanks,
Owen


From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Sat Oct 14 14:48:13 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: ebay bid lists
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001014093841.025a8ea0@208.226.86.10>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001014144813.09cfd1f0@mailhost.intellistar.net>

At 09:40 AM 10/14/00 -0700, Chuck wrote:
>Has anyone else noticed that last night Ebay changed the way they display 
>bids to include _all_ bids, even repeats by the same person. Interesting 
>bit of information that is. And to bring it on topic, there is a VAX 
>4000/VLC* (nothing special) that is up to $170! That's pretty amazing, and 
>to think I sold one at the VCF for $40 :-)

   That's why so many people are selling their stuff on E-bay. Almost
without exception, everyone that I know of that has sold stuff on E-bay is
amazed at how much the items sold for. I don't won't to restart the recent
flame-war but it's things like E-bay that are driving up vintage computer
prices and driving down the local availability. 

     Joe


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Sat Oct 14 13:44:20 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: DSSI: What was it like?
Message-ID: <002701c03610$20aae060$9d789a8d@ajp166>

>One of the more interesting aspects of this bus is that every "target"
is
>an independent entity (its more like an 8 bit parallel network than an
I/O
>bus). Thus disks have their own controller running their own OS etc and
you


IE smaller version of the HSC and friends with potential for faster bus
as well.

>All in all I think it is superior to SCSI in many ways but because DEC
held
>on to it so tightly it was never adopted beyond DEC machines.
>
>As for the abbreviation DSSI I've heard two different expansions used:
>         "Digital Standard Storage Interconnect"
>         "Digital Standard System Interconnect"
>I've yet to find something that pins it down definitively.


DIGITAL Storage System Interconnect,  The only use of "standard"
within the DEC lexicon is limited to "DEC Standards" refering to
the 200+ documented engineering standard for things like how to
pack and label a box, what a terminal is and must do to what a
VAX  is and how it should work.


Allison


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Sat Oct 14 13:48:29 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: Intel MDS 225 (1st post)
Message-ID: <002801c03610$2132fc20$9d789a8d@ajp166>

From: Joe <rigdonj@intellistar.net>
>   That should be EASY to do by using the ROM monitor. You shouldn't
even
>need OS software to do it. The monitor command R0 reads from the paper
tape
>port. I imagine that you could use another device to input data there
>instead of the PT reader. You could then use the monitor commands to
write


I did it that way for my first V2.2 port, used punch out to push it into
my box.
The "catch" code was 30 or so bytes.  The source system was MDS-230.

The box I'd used for target was a Multibus design using a set of cards
I still have and a BLC80/10 with the memory map modded.

Allison


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Sat Oct 14 13:55:30 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: PDP-8 question...
Message-ID: <003001c03611$88e7cb10$9d789a8d@ajp166>



>Well, mine is set for fields 4-7, but I dont have any docs. And since
>its working i'm hesitant to tear it apart.
>
>-Lawrence LeMay


Tear it apart?  This one is only two boards at the top one is the only 
one with significant logic and drivers.  the other is the diode matrix 
and core mat.  There is a DIP socket in the middle (mine has 
nothing in it) and a set of three posts one dip above it.  If you 
could tell me what you have there it would help.

I'd like to get mine into fields 0-3.  then I can put the 4k at field 4
making a nice tidy 20k system.

Then I have to get some mass storage going.  I do have two serial 
cards (m8650 and 8652)so at least I can fake a serial reader
with a glass console.

Allison
>> I just got a DATARAM DR118A core (16kx12) for Omnibus 



From ncherry at home.net  Sat Oct 14 13:59:03 2000
From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: Speaking of cubes
References: <001701c034c8$1f683340$0264a8c0@mediaone.net> <14822.27797.609494.969610@phaduka.neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <39E8ACF7.E58BE24E@home.net>

Dave McGuire wrote:
> 
> On October 12, Sue & Francois wrote:
> > This may be off topic but I just have to brag
> > I just received my cobalt cube today whoo hoo.
> > Its is not 10 years old yet but has just been made obsolete by SUN who
> > bought Cobalt a couple of weeks ago.
> > It's brand new never openned in the original box.
> > I just can't wait to setup my server. But I have to for now though.
> > That's it
> > Thank you for reading, you may return to your normal occupation now.
> 
>   Wait a sec.  Something you said made me stop and think for a minute.
> YOU, an individual, own a thing.  An action by a completely separate
> group of individuals far far away have magically made the thing you
> own *obsolete*?
> 
>   How is it that we, as a society, can have this happen?

<MS Bashing>

I blame Microsoft. :-)

Actually in a way I do, as the hardware got faster and more memory was
available the apps got sloppier and became everything to everyone. Not
to single MS out I'll use Netscape as an example: Do we need to have our
mail program part of the Browser? The recent Mozilla release (18) looks
wonderful but cause Linux to swap like mad on a 64M box. I like Linux
(and Unix in general and it sounds like VMS too :-) because I could
make that which was obsolete under NT work just fine for Linux (you
would not believe how idle a 386SX/16MHz is running all my HA software
and a few other things).

We've thrown away being efficient for time to market and now we're starting
to see the environmental effect. Can anyone really see the need for a 233MHz
sprinkler controller?

</MS Bashing>
-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

From donm at cts.com  Sat Oct 14 14:32:57 2000
From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: True colors
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010140032170.24521-100000@smarty.smart.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SCO.4.20.0010141232090.4662-100000@crash.cts.com>



On Sat, 14 Oct 2000, R. D. Davis wrote:

> On Fri, 13 Oct 2000, Lawrence LeMay wrote:
> > "Bomb them back to the stone age"? Hmm, that quote usually refers to
> > General Curtis LeMay. I suppose, being a LeMay, I should take offense
> > at that crack.
> 
> While I don't know what context that quote was used in, ir who it was
> about, it sounds like a rather neat quote!  Is it for some reason now
> considered "politically incorrect"?  If so, I like it all the more!
> :-)

It was with reference to the North Vietnamese.  

						 - don
 
> [quickly donning asbestos suit!]
> 
> > Or I could try to act like a civilised being, and let it be. I suggest
> > the rest of you do the same.
> 
> That sounds like good advice.  I shall try to avoid any flames or
> flamebait for a while.  There are old systems to be collected and
> restored, and I feel bad about wasting time and bandwidth with
> off-topic nonsense, when that time could have been used by us all
> for more productive purposes (e.g. - restoring older systems and
> otherwise hacking them)
> 
> --
> Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of
> All Rights Reserved            Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to
> rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like
> http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd   a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Sat Oct 14 14:40:55 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: Speaking of cubes
Message-ID: <000601c03616$ada2c540$9d789a8d@ajp166>

From: Neil Cherry <ncherry@home.net>


>I blame Microsoft. :-)


Only partly.  the public that buys this as the "best" is part fo the
problem.

For example, I do run a P166 w/64mb and NT4workstation and love it
but the only MS apps are IE4.01/sp2 and outlook express.  Everything else
is NON MS, makes the system fast and solid.  When I find a good
replacement for OutlookExpress that will with IE go to the trashbin.

In the end I had to do a very careful install to leave out junk.  I'm
finding
Linux is going that way to.  Why??  People want it!

>mail program part of the Browser? The recent Mozilla release (18) looks
>wonderful but cause Linux to swap like mad on a 64M box. I like Linux


That is disgusting.

>would not believe how idle a 386SX/16MHz is running all my HA software
>and a few other things).


I have two 286 boxen at work controlling ovens and testing parts.

My 386/16s I use one is a digital logic analyser (has a board in it)
and te other is a GP use box that is about the size of a small brick
with VGA or MDA(RS170 output).  The latter runs fairly nice off the
kluge LVSMPS I created so it can use a 12V battery.

Try NewDeal Software on DOS with a 386/16, windows GUI and
all plus fast to boot and fits in some 10mb.  They even have a
decent browser and email.

>We've thrown away being efficient for time to market and now we're
starting

Yep, it's the visual++ languages and all.  I ran into someone that wanted
Visual C++ for 8051... get real!

>to see the environmental effect. Can anyone really see the need for a
233MHz
>sprinkler controller?


Also The PC based controls market still sells 486 based PC104, it's
plenty
enough.

Allison


From foo at siconic.com  Sat Oct 14 13:41:46 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: NEC APC available
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SV4.3.96.001014054246.26988N-100000@lerami.lerctr.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010141140510.7453-100000@siconic.com>

On Sat, 14 Oct 2000, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote:

> Perhaps on E-bay or VCF or places where people know what it is. I sort of
> expect thrift store prices to be a bit lower, cause I don't expect thrift
> store management to really know what they have. Of course, they might
> have gotten more savvy over the years....

Or more likely they must've thought, "Computer...expensive...$60".  I see
this all the time.  Old 286 or less PCs selling for stupid amounts of
money.

I doubt they knew the value of the machine.  You should've grabbed it.

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From foo at siconic.com  Sat Oct 14 13:43:18 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: Obsolete, was Speaking of cubes
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001014081852.36c7b7ce@mailhost.intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010141142340.7453-100000@siconic.com>

On Sat, 14 Oct 2000, Joe wrote:

> >Perhaps "outmoded" is a more apt adjective to use.
> 
>    Th term "obselete" is fine but we have to remember that it's just a
> marketing term. The computer that I'm typing this on is considered
> "obselete" but it gets the work done.

I think if you look at the definition of "outmoded" it is a better way to
describe old computers than "obsolete".  Old computers are never really
"obsolete".  However, they are "outmoded".

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From foo at siconic.com  Sat Oct 14 13:51:46 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: IBM Series/1 Minicomputer
In-Reply-To: <39E8A86D.7A295E17@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010141149250.7453-100000@siconic.com>

On Sat, 14 Oct 2000, Owen Robertson wrote:

> Someone is offering me an IBM Series/1 minicomputer with all manuals, an
> 8" diskette drive, and a CDC Hard disk, for $100 plus shipping. Shipping
> for the processor will be about $25, and between $50 and $75 for the
> diskette drive. Shipping for the hard disk will be hundreds, so I won't
> be getting it. I have three questions:

You should try to get the system in its completeness.  To leave the hard
drive behind would be unfortunate.

Have you explored alternate modes of shipping, such as Forward Air?

http://www.forwardair.com/

Have you considered driving to go pick it up?  Have you considered having
another list member retrieve the hard drive?

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From lemay at cs.umn.edu  Sat Oct 14 17:34:54 2000
From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: PDP-8 question...
In-Reply-To: <003001c03611$88e7cb10$9d789a8d@ajp166> from ajp166 at "Oct 14,
 2000 02:55:30 pm"
Message-ID: <200010142234.RAA26734@caesar.cs.umn.edu>

> 
> >Well, mine is set for fields 4-7, but I dont have any docs. And since
> >its working i'm hesitant to tear it apart.
> >
> >-Lawrence LeMay
> 
> 
> Tear it apart?  This one is only two boards at the top one is the only 
> one with significant logic and drivers.  the other is the diode matrix 
> and core mat.  There is a DIP socket in the middle (mine has 
> nothing in it) and a set of three posts one dip above it.  If you 
> could tell me what you have there it would help.

Will do. The 8/e is on my desk at work, so I'll email the info on monday,
if I forget, then remind me.

> 
> I'd like to get mine into fields 0-3.  then I can put the 4k at field 4
> making a nice tidy 20k system.
> 
> Then I have to get some mass storage going.  I do have two serial 
> cards (m8650 and 8652)so at least I can fake a serial reader
> with a glass console.

*sigh* yes, mass storage. I was hoping to get a RX02 working as mass 
storage, but my RX02 appears to be having problems. I picked up 
another RX02 that needs work, at the very least it needs a new cable,
so i'm still hopeful...

-Lawrence LeMay

> 
> Allison
> >> I just got a DATARAM DR118A core (16kx12) for Omnibus 
> 
> 


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Sat Oct 14 19:12:04 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: PDP-8 question...
Message-ID: <000401c0363c$8f5cb890$9d789a8d@ajp166>

>> nothing in it) and a set of three posts one dip above it.  If you
>> could tell me what you have there it would help.
>
>Will do. The 8/e is on my desk at work, so I'll email the info on
monday,
>if I forget, then remind me.


Thanks.  I plan to power it up as is along to see where it sits. I was
told it was likely good but untested.  Certainly looks good though
it has been repaired at one time.

Allison


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sat Oct 14 19:43:41 2000
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
In-Reply-To: <005001c03476$7f930260$c834d986@wkchafauradon.beckman.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010141742420.18744-100000@lanshark.lanminds.com>

> I gues that was not you I had in mind, after all I bought your portfolio
> which in my opinion was rightly priced for the content. (did you ever find
> that parallel port?)

YES!
I found it last night.  Should I snail-mail it to you?


--
Fred Cisin                      cisin@xenosoft.com
XenoSoft                        http://www.xenosoft.com
PO Box 1236                     (510) 558-9366
Berkeley, CA 94701-1236


From eric at brouhaha.com  Sat Oct 14 20:43:27 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
In-Reply-To: <39E73DAA.17145.B20F5F@localhost> (Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de)
References: <39E5FE5D.10554.6FD49EC@localhost> (Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de) <39E73DAA.17145.B20F5F@localhost>
Message-ID: <20001015014327.28486.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Hans wrote:
> And, as already aggreed with Salam, the VCF will have a different
> policy about that for next year.

A different policy about what?

From eric at brouhaha.com  Sat Oct 14 20:47:08 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: Microvax II
In-Reply-To: <39E74D09.CB7C3E16@home.net> (message from Neil Cherry on Fri, 13
	Oct 2000 13:57:29 -0400)
References: <39E74D09.CB7C3E16@home.net>
Message-ID: <20001015014708.28549.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Neil wrote:
> It contains 1 68 pin DIP with TRW on it (I'm betting it's a Moto
> 68K chip). It also contains a bunch of TTL, DAC's and what look like op

Nope.  It's almost certainly a multiplier chip.

From eric at brouhaha.com  Sat Oct 14 20:47:08 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: Microvax II
In-Reply-To: <39E74D09.CB7C3E16@home.net> (message from Neil Cherry on Fri, 13
	Oct 2000 13:57:29 -0400)
References: <39E74D09.CB7C3E16@home.net>
Message-ID: <20001015014708.28549.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Neil wrote:
> It contains 1 68 pin DIP with TRW on it (I'm betting it's a Moto
> 68K chip). It also contains a bunch of TTL, DAC's and what look like op

Nope.  It's almost certainly a multiplier chip.

From eric at brouhaha.com  Sat Oct 14 20:50:13 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: Speaking of cubes
In-Reply-To: <m13k8oj-000IyNC@p850ug1> (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk)
References: <m13k8oj-000IyNC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <20001015015013.28575.qmail@brouhaha.com>

>>   Wait a sec.  Something you said made me stop and think for a minute.
>> YOU, an individual, own a thing.  An action by a completely separate
>> group of individuals far far away have magically made the thing you
>> own *obsolete*?

Tony replied:
> This depends on how you define 'obsolete'. Presumably said group of 
> individuals can :
> Stop selling the thing
> Stop supporting the thing
> Sell a product that does all your 'thing' will do and more. 
> 
> What they can't do is prevent the 'thing' being useful to you.

Unfortunately for some things that last statement is false.  I had a
VideoGuide that I really liked, but they were bought by a competitor and
shut down.  Prior to that, the device would do some functions even if
you weren't subscribed.  But when they shut down the service, they sent
poison packets to all the units, and now they won't do anything.

There was some talk about a class-action lawsuit against them for
intentionally damaging a product they had already sold.  But nothing
came of it.

Now in the states that have passed the UCITA, this sort of behavior
is actually legal!  :-(

Eric

From eric at brouhaha.com  Sat Oct 14 20:55:32 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: Intel MDS 225 (1st post)
In-Reply-To: <200010132031.NAA11889@civic.hal.com> (message from Dwight Elvey
	on Fri, 13 Oct 2000 13:31:57 -0700 (PDT))
References: <200010132031.NAA11889@civic.hal.com>
Message-ID: <20001015015532.28627.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Dwight Elvey <elvey@hal.com> wrote:
> It sounds like you have what
> was generically known as a series II type machine, although
> there was usually one drive in the main cabinet next to the
> CRT. The machine can be made into a CPM machine if you like
> but the disk may not be compatable with other machines. These
> most likely used M2FM soft sectored formats.

I thought they *always* had a drive next to the CRT, but recently
I got one that didn't.

AFAIK, the internal drive only supports single density FM, since
it is wired to the 8271 FDC on the IOC board.  External drives
can either be FM or double density M2FM (which is unfortunately
not compatible with anything else).

> You can even get a 8086 card for them if you look around.

With the 8086 card (an RPB or RPC), it's called a Series III.
Many units were field upgraded, so even a 225 might really be
a Series III.

Earlier Series II have the 8080 IPB (Integrated Processor Board);
later ones and all Series IIIs have the 8085 IPC (Integrated Processor
Card).

Eric

From eric at brouhaha.com  Sat Oct 14 21:11:00 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: Obsolete, was Speaking of cubes
In-Reply-To: <l03102801b60db27c4ed1@[192.168.1.4]> (message from Mike Ford on
	Fri, 13 Oct 2000 23:12:22 -0800)
References: <14822.27797.609494.969610@phaduka.neurotica.com>; from
 mcguire@neurotica.com on Thu, Oct 12, 2000 at 09:59:49PM -0400
 <001701c034c8$1f683340$0264a8c0@mediaone.net>
 <14822.27797.609494.969610@phaduka.neurotica.com> <l03102801b60db27c4ed1@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <20001015021100.28801.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Mike Ford writes:
> I just peeked in the dictionary, Obsolete means "no longer in use". By that
> definition many things are clearly not obsolete, they are just not in the
> front lines anymore.

However, that begs the question of "in use by whom?"

If you define it as "in use by me", or "in use by someone, somewhere",
then it's not a particularly useful term.  There are electromechanical
adding machines still in use by some people somewhere, but any sensible
person considers them obsolete.

The conventional meaning is "no longer in *common* use".

Last time I said on this list that something was obsolete it started
a huge flame war because people took offense at my claim that something
they own is obsolete.  These people seem to associate a lot of emotional
baggage with the word obsolete, and think it's a personal insult.

For my own part, I recognize that almost every computer I own is
obsolete, and it doesn't bother me in the least.  In fact, part of
my enjoyment from activities like restoring PDP-11/70s is *because*
they are obsolete.

Eric

From claudew at sprint.ca  Sat Oct 14 21:25:07 2000
From: claudew at sprint.ca (Claude)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: Need help or service manual for RS COCO mini disk 26-3022...
Message-ID: <39E91583.558D9631@sprint.ca>

Hi

These are the 1st floppy disks for the COCO made by RS. The units are
TEC FB-201.

Large full size mounted on their side in silver case with power supply.

When dskinit (format) command issued, they go about 35 tracks then an
error is reported on the COCO screen.

They can't read a disk formatted on a good drive.

I checked speed and tried to ajust alignement by moving head stepper
motor, could not read to good disk...no improvement

These drives use a plastic disc with a "spiral" grove stuck to the
stepper motor shaft to step the head along. I have seen this in Apple II
drives, it seemed reliable...but I have been told these RS drives were
not really realiable...

I have two. I would really like to get them going again...I hate keeping
stuff in my vintage computer collection that does not work...

Thanks for reading
Claude

From claudew at sprint.ca  Sat Oct 14 21:46:25 2000
From: claudew at sprint.ca (Claude)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:56 2005
Subject: Who collects (reads the mailing list...?) vintage computers in Quebec, 
 Canada?
Message-ID: <39E91A81.6D7825C1@sprint.ca>

Hi

Sometimes I think I may be the only vintage computer collector in
Quebec, Canada.

I would like to hear if anybody else does any collecting around here
(Montreal area)

I have yet to find anybody to trade or talk collecting face-to-face
anywhere around here even if I have posted on several montreal
newsgroups that I am looking to buy/trade this kinda stuff...

When I mention I collect vintage computers, people look at me like I am
due for a trip in the "wacko wagon"...

Computers are tough to find here (not like california...) I have managed
to accumulate/fix/restore approx 50 micros (all working) from the
197x-198x early 1990's...lotta books, software and peripherals...

Those who feel sad for me can send me their Lisa's, TRS model IIIs and
Next boxes ;-> 

...things I will probably never find around here and I refuse to
purchase them on ebay for a zillion bucks...

Thanks for reading
Claude

From at258 at osfn.org  Sat Oct 14 22:12:39 2000
From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: 48v dc power
In-Reply-To: <m13k8gn-000IyHC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.1001014231154.26779B-100000@osfn.org>


Perhaps a nice FX-4D?

On Fri, 13 Oct 2000, Tony Duell wrote:

> > Also, change out the decades old spark plugs and plug wires - those can
> > create a lot of RF? noise.
> 
> Or get a compression-ignition (Diesel) engine. Those things (particularly 
> the older ones with a mechanical injection pump) are electrically very 
> 'quiet' .
> 
> -tony
> 

M. K. Peirce
Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc.
215 Shady Lea Road,
North Kingstown, RI 02852

"Casta est qui nemo rogavit."
              
              - Ovid


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Sat Oct 14 22:28:34 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: Need help or service manual for RS COCO mini disk 26-3022...
Message-ID: <002201c03658$4e474750$9d789a8d@ajp166>

From: Claude <claudew@sprint.ca>


>These are the 1st floppy disks for the COCO made by RS. The units are
>TEC FB-201.
>
>Large full size mounted on their side in silver case with power supply.

>
>When dskinit (format) command issued, they go about 35 tracks then an
>error is reported on the COCO screen.


You sure it isn't the first drives for the TRS-80?  The symptom would be
the older SA400 drives designed for 35 track operation used within.
The later drives were SA400Ls that  were designed for 40 track operation.
Both used the spiral groove cam but one was a bit different.

Open up the box and see which you have.

The other possibility is old (really old) media ment for the 35 track
drives and this media has a smaller "window" in the jacket that will
limit head travel.

>They can't read a disk formatted on a good drive.


That suggests teh head follower is out of the groove or
the stepper has been rotated or other wear probems.

>These drives use a plastic disc with a "spiral" grove stuck to the
>stepper motor shaft to step the head along. I have seen this in Apple II
>drives, it seemed reliable...but I have been told these RS drives were
>not really realiable...


SA400 drives were very poor over time for reliability.  You would
need an alignment disk to set it up or lot of trial and error assuming
the head moves freely on it guide rails.

Allison


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Sat Oct 14 22:33:04 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: Who collects (reads the mailing list...?) vintage computers in Quebec, Canada?
Message-ID: <002301c03659$b5604b70$9d789a8d@ajp166>

From: Claude <claudew@sprint.ca>


>I have yet to find anybody to trade or talk collecting face-to-face
>anywhere around here even if I have posted on several montreal
>newsgroups that I am looking to buy/trade this kinda stuff...


I find that rather unusual.  In the 80s I used to call on companies 
in Montreal and there were a lot of them in the small computer 
market.    More than likely there are other collectors and your 
entering late on the scene.

Computers are tough to find here (not like california...) I have managed
>to accumulate/fix/restore approx 50 micros (all working) from the
>197x-198x early 1990's...lotta books, software and peripherals...


1980x oh you mean recent stuff.  ;)  I have a handful of machines 
I really like to use from the 70's.  Just got some core for my PDP-8/F
that should be old enough.

>Those who feel sad for me can send me their Lisa's, TRS model IIIs and
>Next boxes ;-> 


No intrest in those.

Allison


From jhfine at idirect.com  Sat Oct 14 22:38:44 2000
From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: Who collects (reads the mailing list...?) vintage computers in Quebec, 
	 Canada?
References: <39E91A81.6D7825C1@sprint.ca>
Message-ID: <39E926C4.46605C35@idirect.com>

>Claude wrote:

> Sometimes I think I may be the only vintage computer collector in
> Quebec, Canada.
> I would like to hear if anybody else does any collecting around here
> (Montreal area)

Jerome Fine replies:

You might want to contact:
http://www.aei.ca/
as far as used junk is concerned.  While the prices are probably not
great, they may be better than ebay.

In addition, there are a few of us in Toronto which is far, but
at least not over a border that must be crossed with customs
standing there with their hands out (not referring to the US
fellows, but the Canadian guys who attempt to collect GST)
and generally attempt to give us collectors a hard time.

Let me know if this helps or not - I may have other contacts.

Sincerely yours,

Jerome Fine


From oliv555 at arrl.net  Sat Oct 14 22:41:37 2000
From: oliv555 at arrl.net (no)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: Intel 310   286 box
References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB1F6@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>
Message-ID: <39E92771.20F3A732@arrl.net>



Douglas Quebbeman wrote:
> 
> > We still have about 4 of these 310's in operation here which we are in the
> > process of retiring. But, unlike Pats, ours run the iRMX OS. There wasan
> active
> > user group for these (iRUG ?) but don't know if its still a  functioning
> > group.
> 
> Always wanted an iRMX-based system...
> 
> Do these 310s have their retirement mapped out already?
> 
> regards,
> -dq


There is a contractor in-house presently re-hosting this particular
system to AIX/RS6000's.

We will be retaining one 310-powered board-testing station and probably
keep the remaining 310's for spare parts. These boxes have not been
particularly reliable the last couple of years.

no

From Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au  Sat Oct 14 22:55:39 2000
From: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: Changing logicals on VMS?
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20001002210807.00d0aa40@208.226.86.10>
References: <200010030348.UAA21885@shell1.aracnet.com>
 <4.3.1.2.20001002201320.00e5abe0@208.226.86.10>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001015135424.02242170@kerberos.davies.net.au>

At 21:56 2/10/00 -0700, Chuck McManis wrote:

>(Of course if I want to be anal I can run all the consoles into the 
>harmonica box off a CXYA16 in the 4000/200 and use that machine as a 
>console server)

I would have thought a DECserver 200 would be the ideal box for this task. 
In fact, I've just realized that it would solve a similar problem here at 
home - I'll just have to go pick one up (and I know where I can probably 
get one too...)

Huw Davies           | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au
                      | "If God had wanted soccer played in the
                      | air, the sky would be painted green" 


From jhfine at idirect.com  Sat Oct 14 23:10:51 2000
From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: Microvax II
References: <001101c035fc$88f45ac0$9d789a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <39E92E4B.121D908C@idirect.com>

>ajp166 wrote:

> >Anyone out there who wants to try?  I would be very pleased to
> >swap some of my time for a couple of SCSI 32 GByte hard drives
> >to test out the software.  The only problem is that the only SCSI
> >host adapters I have are the 50 pin type (CQD 220/M), so there
> I've run my PDP11 with SCSI CQD already as it's MSCP, Same
> for VAX/VMS (it's in my MVII).

Jerome Fine replies:

It seem like we agree.  The question I was asking was whether or not
SCSI-2 drives with the 50 pin interface are made that have a capacity
of more than 9.2 Gbytes such as the ST410800N - preferably at
least 16 GBytes are maybe even 32 Gbytes.  Since I already know
about this Seagate drive and I agree that is is reasonable in cost, it
is the larger drives that I am asking about - sorry if I was not clear
as to the question.

> It's limited to 4 or 8gb and SCSI-II so forget the reall monster drives.

Are you sure?  Is anyone aware of larger drives that still use the 50 pin
SCSI-2 interface?

> The idea of such huge drive with RT11 and friends is that is wasted.
> I use D540s (31mb) and swap them like carts as I have a bunch of em
> and they are plenty big enough.  Drives in the 120-400MB range are
> plentyful for me, one 200mb drive would take all the binaries and
> sources I have with room to spare that aren't already on Tims CD.
> Whats the point?

The point is that maybe you are not the only person who runs with
drives that are so small.  And while I agree with you that probably
most RT-11 or TSX-PLUS users do not use drives even as large
as 2 GBytes (I use a 600 MByte drive myself and find that is normally
more than enough capacity), there may be a few who could benefit
from even larger drives.  The problem with the standard MSCP
DU(X).SYS device driver in RT-11 is that the software limits the user
to easily using drives that are smaller than 8 GBytes.  While I know
that you are aware of the limitation, the actual question I asked is
if MSCP allows the hardware use of drives up to a 32 bit block
number?  Again, I obviously did not make my question clear
enough since you did not answer it.  Namely, if the DU(X).SYS
device driver in RT-11 could handle sending more than a 24 bit
block number to the hard disk drive via the use of SET commands
(which would allow a partition number with more than 8 bits), could
the hardware handle that?

I did not say that everyone would want to make use of that feature
if it were possible - I know that you will not and I will not.  I was
just asking if it were possible and maybe someone might want
to do so?

I guess that the point I am trying to make is that I enjoy a software
challenge whereas you enjoy a hardware challenge.  I look a
some hardware and see what is.  You look at the same hardware
and see what could be.  I guess that I do the same with software.
Then I also go ahead and try make it work.  Many times, I actually
can enhance or fix software just as you make changes to the hardware.
Can we agree on that?

Sincerely yours,

Jerome Fine


From claudew at sprint.ca  Sat Oct 14 23:35:57 2000
From: claudew at sprint.ca (Claude.W)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: Need help or service manual for RS COCO mini disk 26-3022...
Message-ID: <001601c03661$76ac39e0$2b00a8c0@Gamer_Claude.HOME>

>>These are the 1st floppy disks for the COCO made by RS. The units are
>>TEC FB-201.
>>
>>Large full size mounted on their side in silver case with power supply.
>
>>
>>When dskinit (format) command issued, they go about 35 tracks then an
>>error is reported on the COCO screen.
>
>
>You sure it isn't the first drives for the TRS-80?  The symptom would be
>the older SA400 drives designed for 35 track operation used within.
>The later drives were SA400Ls that  were designed for 40 track operation.
>Both used the spiral groove cam but one was a bit different.
>
>Open up the box and see which you have.
>
>The other possibility is old (really old) media ment for the 35 track
>drives and this media has a smaller "window" in the jacket that will
>limit head travel.
>
>>They can't read a disk formatted on a good drive.
>
>
>That suggests teh head follower is out of the groove or
>the stepper has been rotated or other wear probems.
>
>>These drives use a plastic disc with a "spiral" grove stuck to the
>>stepper motor shaft to step the head along. I have seen this in Apple II
>>drives, it seemed reliable...but I have been told these RS drives were
>>not really realiable...
>
>
>SA400 drives were very poor over time for reliability.  You would
>need an alignment disk to set it up or lot of trial and error assuming
>the head moves freely on it guide rails.
>
>Allison

Cant see SA400 anywhere...TEC FB-201 only thing I see...

They have "TRS80 Color Computer MIni Disk" in front of case.

They are listed by catalog no. on COCO web sites as being the 1st drives put
out for the COCO. Problematic but no hints given to fix them...

They don't "look" like they have been used a lot.

Looks like everything is working as far as the "groove cam" is concerned....

If it was wear and "slack" in the groove or other parts , I think I should
be able to have it "track" and do small reads when playing around with the
step motor alignement...no? It look almost like nothing is being written or
read at all...perhaps a failure in the electronics...

Test points are "identified" on the board with abbreviations...I will probe
these out "blindly" trying to figure out what's happening if I get no other
hints...

I am sure there was a service manual for these, RS had a service manual for
almost everything they sold back then including stuff like calculators!...I
actually bought a lot of about 300 at one point and threw them all out after
a few years not using them....

Thanks for the reply
Claude








From healyzh at aracnet.com  Sun Oct 15 00:01:05 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: Dauphin DTR-1 running Ersatz-11
Message-ID: <v04020a00b60ed01a375b@[192.168.1.5]>

Thanks to the CP/M User Group swap meet today I'm closer to my dream of a
PocketPDP-11, as I picked up a box of Dauphin DTR-1 stuff, with three
complete systems which are already earmarked (unfortunatly my wife wants
one for some simple games).  Still that leaves one for the PocketPDP-11 (if
you've big enough pockets), and a console for the VAXlaptop project!

Anyway the Dauphin is basically a pin-based handheld (that will accept
either thier mini keyboard or a standard PS/2 keyboard) 486/25 with a 64
shades of grey 640x480 LCD display running MS-DOS 6.0, and Windows 3.1.
I've got the external floppies, and an internal 40MB HD.  I've loaded
Ersatz-11 onto it and I've got a RT-11 RL02 image that I've used with the
Supnik emulator.

I'm doing the following with Ersatz-11:

set cpu 23
mount dl0: c:\e11\rt11.dsk
boot dl0:

However, it just sort of sits there, and does nothing :^(  Anyone have any
ideas?  It's not showing any indication of RT-11 booting.

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|                 http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/              |

From Mzthompson at aol.com  Sun Oct 15 00:26:04 2000
From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: DSSI: What was it like?
Message-ID: <c9.957f486.271a99ec@aol.com>

Bruce Lane <kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com> wrote:

> For that matter, what the heck did DSSI abbreviate? My guess:
> Distributed Storage Subsystem Interface.

To which Chuck McManis <cmcmanis@mcmanis.com> replied:

> As for the abbreviation DSSI I've heard two different expansions used:
>         "Digital Standard Storage Interconnect"
>         "Digital Standard System Interconnect"
> I've yet to find something that pins it down definitively.

DEC lists in the manuals for both the DECsystem 5400 and the DECsystem 5500
as:

"Digital Storage System Interconnect"

and states:

The DSSI bus has the following characteristics:

 A 4-Mbytes-per-second bandwidth
 Up to eight nodes
 Eight data lines
 One Parity line
 Eight control lines

And gleened from somewhere a long time ago:

One person wrote:

:DSSI was developed from early SCSI definitions in an attempt to make
:it robust, reliable and versatile (e.g. dual host option was defined
:from the very beginning, while many of today's SCSI controllers still
:can cope with only a single host adapter per bus).

:The additional features made it more expensive then SCSI, and the
:industry decided to go with the cheaper solution.

Another person wrote:

:> Are the two inter-changeable???  (SCSI vs DSSI)

:No.  It's interesting, though, that there were vendors whose storage
:controllers had host ports that were software configurable as either
:DSSI or SCSI.  I never got close enough to one of these to find out
:if they used the same signal wiring, though [most likely not - it is
:conceivable that logic levels were compatible enough that one could
:use the same line drivers and receivers, but they would still have had
:to have a way to choose connectors that matched the interface type].

FWIW

Mike


From Mzthompson at aol.com  Sun Oct 15 00:26:05 2000
From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: IBM Series/1 Minicomputer
Message-ID: <b0.b969609.271a99ed@aol.com>

Owen Robertson <univac2@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Shipping for the hard disk will be hundreds, so I won't be getting it.

To which Sellam Ismail <foo@siconic.com> replied:

> Have you considered driving to go pick it up?  Have you considered having
> another list member retrieve the hard drive?

Sellam, that needs to be list members.  I walked away from several of
them a while back.  Stuck on the front of the drive assembly is a sticker
that says to the effect "Caution: Unit weighs 156 pounds".  Heavy metal, ey?

Mike

From Mzthompson at aol.com  Sun Oct 15 00:26:07 2000
From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: Who collects (reads the mailing list...?) vintage computers in Quebec
Message-ID: <e3.b006507.271a99ef@aol.com>

Claude <claudew@sprint.ca> wrote:

> Sometimes I think I may be the only vintage computer collector in
> Quebec, Canada.

Look on the bright side, at least the competition is slim.  Some guy
here locally had overheard me talking to someone else about a stash
I knew of and had already contacted the organization.  He went there
pretending to be me and made arrangements to haul some stuff off.
By coincidence I called the place later the same day as his initial
visit.  My contact was all confused until she realized that she was
being duped by this person.  I ended up telling her to let him have
the first stash (old intel boxes) to which she replied she would and
save the other (and better) stash for me.  She let him load the junk
and then gave him a piece of her mind and sent him packing.  In a sense
he did me a favor, saved me from having to haul the junk along with
the good stuff.

> When I mention I collect vintage computers, people look at me like I am
> due for a trip in the "wacko wagon"...

Hey, they thought the same thing of the dude who collected bottlecaps,
now they wished they had picked them up off the ground themselves.


> Those who feel sad for me can send me their Lisa's, TRS model IIIs and
> Next boxes ;-> 

NeXT: You want Cube or Slab, Plain or Turbo?

Mike

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Sun Oct 15 00:55:22 2000
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: Greetings!
In-Reply-To: <e3.b006507.271a99ef@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010142249040.4426-100000@war.deltasoft.com>

Hello all, my name is Gene Buckle and I run the Commercial CP/M Software
Archive at http://deltasoft.fife.wa.us/cpm.  

This list was pointed out to me by a nice gent on comp.os.cpm.  I've got a
MicroVAX II that I need drives for.  Both of my RD54 drives have pretty
much given up the ghost.  I'd like to obtain a SCSI board for it since my
chances of getting a pair of RD54 drives are fairly slim. :)  If anyone
knows where I can get one, please let me know.

The system is currently configured with a TS05 tape drive a tk50, an
rx55[?] two 8 port serial boards (DHV-11's I think) and a DEQUNA ethernet
board.  I've also got a KDA-50 controller installed.

I'm also in need of NetBSD on a TK50 if anyone in Washington State has
one. *grin*

Thanks for your time!  If you've got any commercial CP/M software laying
about, I'd be happy to put it online for you.

For those that don't follow comp.os.cpm, I added a bunch of OS stuff last
night.  Everything from Concurrent CP/M-86 to TurboDOS.  Check it out.

g.




From lgwalker at look.ca  Sun Oct 15 02:38:47 2000
From: lgwalker at look.ca (Lawrence Walker)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: Who collects (reads the mailing list...?) vintage computers in Quebec,  Canada?
In-Reply-To: <39E91A81.6D7825C1@sprint.ca>
Message-ID: <39E926C7.22248.7801188@localhost>



> Hi
> 
> Sometimes I think I may be the only vintage computer collector in
> Quebec, Canada.
> 
> I would like to hear if anybody else does any collecting around here
> (Montreal area)
> 
> I have yet to find anybody to trade or talk collecting face-to-face
> anywhere around here even if I have posted on several montreal
> newsgroups that I am looking to buy/trade this kinda stuff...
> 
> When I mention I collect vintage computers, people look at me like I
> am due for a trip in the "wacko wagon"...
> 
> Computers are tough to find here (not like california...) I have
> managed to accumulate/fix/restore approx 50 micros (all working) from
> the 197x-198x early 1990's...lotta books, software and peripherals...
> 
> Those who feel sad for me can send me their Lisa's, TRS model IIIs and
> Next boxes ;-> 
> 
> ...things I will probably never find around here and I refuse to
> purchase them on ebay for a zillion bucks...
> 
> Thanks for reading
> Claude
> 
 There's a fair number of Canucks on the list but the only one in 
Montreal I can recall is Doug Spence <hrothgar@total.net>
 Haven't seen any posts from him for a while but he should still 
have his old collection and possible treasure bin sources. There 
was a very good place in St. Laurent that had lots of good stuff but
last I heard they had some hassle with the city licensors. Doug
would know if they are still in business. I'm in Toronto but have kids
and grandchildren there so I occasionally visit.

 Yeah, you gotta envy those California guys,  if it doesn't all slide
into the Pacific. :^))

ciao		larry




Reply to:
lgwalker@look.ca

From kdavis at ndx.net  Sun Oct 15 02:55:03 2000
From: kdavis at ndx.net (Kirk B. Davis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: Dauphin DTR-1 running Ersatz-11
In-Reply-To: <v04020a00b60ed01a375b@[192.168.1.5]> from "Zane H. Healy" at Oct 14, 2000 10:01:05 PM
Message-ID: <200010150755.e9F7t3n01796@bender.ndx.net>


Try a different CPU like a 73 or 70. I know this helped
for booting some of the UNIX images. It's too bad that
you are using Windows 3.1 because I have a version
of the Supnik emulator that runs under WIN32. I know that
someone on this list must have compiled it as a DOS
app. Let me know if you don't have any luck and I'll
do a quick dos compile for you.

Kirk


> 
> Thanks to the CP/M User Group swap meet today I'm closer to my dream of a
> PocketPDP-11, as I picked up a box of Dauphin DTR-1 stuff, with three
> complete systems which are already earmarked (unfortunatly my wife wants
> one for some simple games).  Still that leaves one for the PocketPDP-11 (if
> you've big enough pockets), and a console for the VAXlaptop project!
> 
> Anyway the Dauphin is basically a pin-based handheld (that will accept
> either thier mini keyboard or a standard PS/2 keyboard) 486/25 with a 64
> shades of grey 640x480 LCD display running MS-DOS 6.0, and Windows 3.1.
> I've got the external floppies, and an internal 40MB HD.  I've loaded
> Ersatz-11 onto it and I've got a RT-11 RL02 image that I've used with the
> Supnik emulator.
> 
> I'm doing the following with Ersatz-11:
> 
> set cpu 23
> mount dl0: c:\e11\rt11.dsk
> boot dl0:
> 
> However, it just sort of sits there, and does nothing :^(  Anyone have any
> ideas?  It's not showing any indication of RT-11 booting.
> 
> 			Zane
> | Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
> | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
> | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
> +----------------------------------+----------------------------+
> |     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
> |                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
> |                 http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/              |
> 


From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com  Sun Oct 15 03:35:31 2000
From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: Greetings!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010142249040.4426-100000@war.deltasoft.com
 >
References: <e3.b006507.271a99ef@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001015013531.0096dba0@pop.sttl.uswest.net>

At 22:55 14-10-2000 -0700, you wrote:

>Hello all, my name is Gene Buckle and I run the Commercial CP/M Software
>Archive at http://deltasoft.fife.wa.us/cpm.  

	Well, look who finally made it. Hi, Gene!

>I'm also in need of NetBSD on a TK50 if anyone in Washington State has
>one. *grin*

	I can write you a boot/install tape for 1.4.2. The boot.fs for the 1.5
Alpha releases isn't out yet. I just need a mailing address.


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies
http://www.bluefeathertech.com  // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com
Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 (Extra class as of June-2K)
"I'll get a life when someone demonstrates to me that it would be
superior to what I have now..." (Gym Z. Quirk, aka Taki Kogoma).

From Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au  Sun Oct 15 05:38:00 2000
From: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: early non-US personal computers
In-Reply-To: <SIMEON.10010121245.D@notmac.uwe.ac.uk>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010120424330.10401-100000@planetdoug.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001015203537.0224d9f0@kerberos.davies.net.au>

At 12:57 12/10/00 +0100, John Honniball wrote:

>On Thu, 12 Oct 2000 04:46:41 -0400 (EDT) Doug Salot
><doug@blinkenlights.com> wrote:
> > I'm looking for foreign brothers of machines like the Altair
> > (microprocessor), Kenbak-1 (discrete logic), Minivac (clocked relays),
> > GENIAC (rotary switches), etc.  I'm also looking for pointers to old (say,
> > 1940-1970) electronic hobbyist mags outside of the US.
>
>UK Magazines (and published constructional projects):
>
>Practical Wireless
>Practical Electronics (UK101 with 6502 CPU in 1979)
>Everyday Electronics
>Electronics Today International (6800 machine in 1977)
>Hobby Electronics
>Wireless World
>Elektor (Junior Computer, SC/MP I think)
>Personal Computer World (Early issues included electronics)

About the same time as the original Altair articles appeared in the US, 
Electronics Australia published construction details for a personal 
computer that was a cut-down PDP-8. Yes, I know there's not much to an -8 
but the EA system had fewer instructions. It's been a while since I read 
the articles but suspect the system was made from 7400 series ICs. I do 
recall it had 256 words of memory and a LED based front panel.

Huw Davies           | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au
                      | "If God had wanted soccer played in the
                      | air, the sky would be painted green" 


From Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au  Sun Oct 15 05:57:16 2000
From: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: Alphastation 255 question..
In-Reply-To: <200010130103.SAA18238@shell1.aracnet.com>
References: <010501c034a6$39aa9530$220f9a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001015205006.0224e9f0@kerberos.davies.net.au>

At 18:03 12/10/00 -0700, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote:

>I think you know what I mean :^)  The system in question is an Alpha, and on
>Alpha's OpenVMS is a memory pig!  A quick (SHO CLUS) shows that my 24MB
>VAXstation 4000/VLC is sitting at 60% memory usage, the AlphaStation 500/333
>with 96MB that doesn't have DECwindows loaded on the system is sitting at
>69%, unfortunatly I don't have either of the workstations with 112MB up at
>the moment as but running DECwindows I believe they'll be at about 80%,
>IIRC.  Of course my main system is only at 20% :^)
>
>I understand why OpenVMS on an Alpha uses so much memory as opposed to on a
>VAX, however, the fact remains, it's a memory hog, and like I said based on
>my very limited Tru64 experience it seems even worse on the exact same
>hardware.

Have you done any tuning on the system? The default values of some of the 
SYSGEN parameters are set in such a way to protect less knowledgeable 
customers from themselves. At the very least use AUTOGEN with feedback to 
see if the report generated indicates a few parameters that could be 
downsized. I'm not near a running VMS system right now (restructuring my 
home office/computer room and the VMS systems are in pieces down the 
corridor) so all of this is coming from memory but something like

     $ @SYS$UPDATE:AUTOGEN GETDATA GENPARAMS FEEDBACK

will generate a report file (SYS$SYSTEM:AGEN$PARAMS.REPORT) and not do 
anything to the system.

Huw Davies           | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au
                      | "If God had wanted soccer played in the
                      | air, the sky would be painted green" 


From rdd at smart.net  Sun Oct 15 09:24:58 2000
From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: Greetings!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010142249040.4426-100000@war.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010151019410.9792-100000@smarty.smart.net>

On Sat, 14 Oct 2000, Gene Buckle wrote:

> Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 22:55:22 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Gene Buckle <geneb@deltasoft.com>
> Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org
> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org
> Subject: Greetings!
> 

Greetings!

> This list was pointed out to me by a nice gent on comp.os.cpm.  I've got a
> MicroVAX II that I need drives for.  Both of my RD54 drives have pretty
> much given up the ghost.  I'd like to obtain a SCSI board for it since my
> chances of getting a pair of RD54 drives are fairly slim. :)  If anyone
> knows where I can get one, please let me know.

The chances of finding inexpensive SCSI boards seem to be even slimmer
than finding RD54s... however, there was a discussion here a short 
while back about looking for a VAXstation or larger MicroVAX that
already has one in it, which is easier to find.  

Good luck!

> For those that don't follow comp.os.cpm, I added a bunch of OS stuff last
> night.  Everything from Concurrent CP/M-86 to TurboDOS.  Check it out.

Thanks!  It sounds like a nice archive.


--
Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of
All Rights Reserved            Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to
rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd   a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD 





From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Sun Oct 15 10:33:21 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: Intel MDS 225 (1st post)
In-Reply-To: <20001015015532.28627.qmail@brouhaha.com>
References: <200010132031.NAA11889@civic.hal.com>
 <200010132031.NAA11889@civic.hal.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001015103321.3c8fd7b8@mailhost.intellistar.net>

At 01:55 AM 10/15/00 -0000, you wrote:
>Dwight Elvey <elvey@hal.com> wrote:
>> It sounds like you have what
>> was generically known as a series II type machine, although
>> there was usually one drive in the main cabinet next to the
>> CRT. The machine can be made into a CPM machine if you like
>> but the disk may not be compatable with other machines. These
>> most likely used M2FM soft sectored formats.
>
>I thought they *always* had a drive next to the CRT, but recently
>I got one that didn't.
>
>AFAIK, the internal drive only supports single density FM, since
>it is wired to the 8271 FDC on the IOC board.  External drives
>can either be FM or double density M2FM 

   Correct. There are a couple of ways you can go with this. (1) Option 730
just adds a pair of external drives  but they're connected to the existing
controller and it determine what density you get so you'll end up with all
of the drives being single desity. (2) OR you install the 503 mod along
with option 720. The 503 mod replaces the original controller to a double
density one so now all the drives are DD. (3) OR you can add option 720
which gives you the external drives along with a second drive controller
uses a 8272. In this case your internal drive will be single density and
the external ones will be double density. (4) Again you can add the 503 mod
aand all the drives will then be DD but you'll have two controllers
installed instead of only one. The addition of a pair of external drives
changes a 22x model to a 23x model.

  FWIW There is also a 740 option, it adds a 7.3 Mb hard drive to the system.

    The 220 model and the 225 model come with a single density drive
controller. The Intel book implies that all (most?) other models come with
double density controllers but I don't think they do. For example,
according to Intel, the 221 model is nothing but a 220 that was converted
at the factory to operate from 230 VAC instead of 115 VAC so it should also
have the SD controller.

>Unless someone ha put in the 503 mod which replaces the tow drive
controller cards. The 503 cards use a 
>(which is unfortunately
>not compatible with anything else).
>
>> You can even get a 8086 card for them if you look around.
>
>With the 8086 card (an RPB or RPC), it's called a Series III.
>Many units were field upgraded, so even a 225 might really be
>a Series III.


   Righto. Paxton and I were trying to sort this out. I finally had to go
dig out my Intel books and figure it out. The difference between a Series
II and a Series III is the ADDITION of the iMDX 557 Resident Processor
Card. The card is a RPB-86 and it has a 8086 CPU. Note that the original
processor is left in the machine and is still used for some tasks.   I have
an extra set of these cards that I'll swap for other Intel stuff is anyone
is interested.


>
>Earlier Series II have the 8080 IPB (Integrated Processor Board);
>later ones and all Series IIIs have the 8085 IPC (Integrated Processor
>Card).
>
  
   The models that I know of are the 220, 221, 222, 225, 226, 227, 230,
231, 232 and 240. Whew!

    The 225, 226 and 227 models came with an IPC (Integrated Processor
Card). It has a 4 MHz 8085A-2 CPU and 4 K of ROM and 64K of RAM. All other
(22x) models came with the IPB (Integrated Processor Board). It has a 2.6
MHz 8080A-2 and 4K of ROM and 32K of RAM.  The 23x models were nothing more
than a 22x with the addition of the external dual disk drive.  However,
they also added a second 32K RAM card to 23x models that only had 32K
originally (the ones with the IPB). There was also a 240 model, It was a
220 but came with a hard drive, I don't know if there were any other
changes to it.  I THINK a 225 was a 221 but with a IPC instead of an IPB. I
think a 227 was a 222 with an IPC installed. But I don't know what a 222 was.

    Confused yet?  OK here's how it works in a nut-shell. You start with a
220. If the factory changes it to 230 VAC you have a 221. If you make
another (unknown) change you get a 222.  You take those models and pull out
the IPB card and replace it with a IPC and you get the 225, 226 and 227.
If you take any of those six and add the external drive box and you get the
230, 231 and 232.  (Notice that a 230 may have a IPB or a IPC card in it.
Same with the 231 and 232.)   Add a hard drive to a 220 and you get a 240.

   Add a Resident Processor Card and it becomes a Series III instead of a
Series II. AFIK a Series III can be any configuration of RAM, drives and
IPB or IPC processor.

   You can see that there are a LOT of combinations that don't have a
specific model number. That's makes it confusing enough but then you have
to remember that Intel offered lots of other cards and accessories for
these and many of them were upgraded/modified by their owners so the
variations are endless. FWIW Intel wasn't the only one that made parts for
these. I have a A/D card from Burr-Brown and I have a list from Intel that
lists at least twenty manufactures of MultiBus cards that would work in the
MDS.


   I went through part of my spare Intel stuff and found an extra ICE-85
setup including the emulator and tradc pods and the cards for them. I'll
swap them for other Intel stuff that I don't have. I also have various
extra cards that I'll trade. 

    Joe


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Oct 15 11:44:58 2000
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: Need help or service manual for RS COCO mini disk 26-3022...
In-Reply-To: <001601c03661$76ac39e0$2b00a8c0@Gamer_Claude.HOME>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010150937040.10127-100000@lanshark.lanminds.com>

On Sun, 15 Oct 2000, Claude.W wrote:
> >>These are the 1st floppy disks for the COCO made by RS. The units are
> >>TEC FB-201.

At least around here, the very FIRST drives that RS made available for the
Coco were Shugart SA400s.  That is a 35 track drive with the spiral groove
disk.  Allison pointed out that there was a later model (SA400L) that
could handle 40 track.  BTW, if you have decent machine shop capabilities,
the SA400 could easily be modified for more tracks, but it is NOT a
handheld Dremel task.

Later drives around here included Tandon (TM100-1)? and TEC.  Tandon uses
a split band positioner.  Didn't the production TEC's also use a split
band???


Was the "TEC" label on the drive itself, or on the case (possibly a drive
had been changed?)

Does your drive have what looks like a slide switch on the front
panel? (present on TECs).  What kind of door mechanism?

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred        cisin@xenosoft.com


From mark at cs.ualberta.ca  Sun Oct 15 11:46:27 2000
From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: Who collects (reads the mailing list...?) vintage computers in Quebec,
  Canada?
In-Reply-To: <39E91A81.6D7825C1@sprint.ca> from Claude at "Oct 14, 2000 10:46:25
 pm"
Message-ID: <20001015164628Z433171-10748+159@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca>

> Hi
> 
> Sometimes I think I may be the only vintage computer collector in
> Quebec, Canada.
> 
> I would like to hear if anybody else does any collecting around here
> (Montreal area)

I know the feeling, there are only a few other collectors here
in Edmonton, and not many common interests.  Gets kind of
lonely at times, but then again you get the pick of what's
around.

> 
> When I mention I collect vintage computers, people look at me like I am
> due for a trip in the "wacko wagon"...

I'm moving to Hong Kong at the end of the year, they view anything
over 18 months as vintage :-).  I'm not planning on adding too
much to my collection while there.

> 
> Computers are tough to find here (not like california...) I have managed
> to accumulate/fix/restore approx 50 micros (all working) from the
> 197x-198x early 1990's...lotta books, software and peripherals...
> 

Here's a trick, or technique, that I've used for locating old
workstations.  Make friends with the local computer sales
people (this works particularly well if you are a potential
customer), they know where a lot of the old workstations are.
When they sell a replacement for an old workstation, they will
sometimes give credit for the old workstation, if it is traded
in.  The trade ins are quite often trashed, particularly if they
can't be used as spare parts for another workstation that's
still under maintenance.  Its often cheaper for them to put the
workstation someplace where you can retrieve it, then to actually
pay the costs of trashing it.  I've managed to acquire a number
of SGI workstations in this way.

-- 
Dr. Mark Green                                 mark@cs.ualberta.ca
McCalla Professor                              (780) 492-4584
Department of Computing Science                (780) 492-1071 (FAX)
University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Oct 15 11:48:54 2000
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: APOLOGY:Re: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010141742420.18744-100000@lanshark.lanminds.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010150947440.10127-100000@lanshark.lanminds.com>

Sorry
That should have been private.
Just trying to complete a set that I sold.

--
Fred Cisin                      cisin@xenosoft.com
XenoSoft                        http://www.xenosoft.com
PO Box 1236                     (510) 558-9366
Berkeley, CA 94701-1236


On Sat, 14 Oct 2000, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:

> > I gues that was not you I had in mind, after all I bought your portfolio
> > which in my opinion was rightly priced for the content. (did you ever find
> > that parallel port?)
> 
> YES!
> I found it last night.  Should I snail-mail it to you?
> 
> 
> --
> Fred Cisin                      cisin@xenosoft.com
> XenoSoft                        http://www.xenosoft.com
> PO Box 1236                     (510) 558-9366
> Berkeley, CA 94701-1236


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Sun Oct 15 12:20:29 2000
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: Greetings!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001015013531.0096dba0@pop.sttl.uswest.net>
Message-ID: <PGEOIPOKPPLEFPGCLAFAIEENCDAA.geneb@deltasoft.com>

> At 22:55 14-10-2000 -0700, you wrote:
>
> >Hello all, my name is Gene Buckle and I run the Commercial CP/M Software
> >Archive at http://deltasoft.fife.wa.us/cpm.
>
> 	Well, look who finally made it. Hi, Gene!
>
If you guys didn't hide so well, I would've made it sooner! :)

> >I'm also in need of NetBSD on a TK50 if anyone in Washington State has
> >one. *grin*
>
> 	I can write you a boot/install tape for 1.4.2. The boot.fs
> for the 1.5
> Alpha releases isn't out yet. I just need a mailing address.

Thanks Bruce!
My address is:
Gene Buckle
PO Box 1432
Milton, WA 98354.

BTW, If there is anyone here that has Sun4 equipment, let me know.  I've got
a pile of boards that need a home.  One of them is an SMD drive controller.

g.


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Sun Oct 15 12:29:43 2000
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: Greetings!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010151019410.9792-100000@smarty.smart.net>
Message-ID: <PGEOIPOKPPLEFPGCLAFACEEOCDAA.geneb@deltasoft.com>

> The chances of finding inexpensive SCSI boards seem to be even slimmer
> than finding RD54s... however, there was a discussion here a short
> while back about looking for a VAXstation or larger MicroVAX that
> already has one in it, which is easier to find.

Unfortunately, I don't have the room for any more machines.  Besides, most
of my cash reserves are going to the restoration of this:
http://deltasoft.fife.wa.us/f15images.html. :)

A BA23 box wouldn't be too bad of a find though. :)

g.


From KenzieM at sympatico.ca  Sun Oct 15 13:05:08 2000
From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: Who collects (reads the mailing list...?) vintage computers in Quebec, Canada?
References: <39E91A81.6D7825C1@sprint.ca>
Message-ID: <02fd01c036d4$0451f2e0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca>

I get the same feeling here in Ottawa.

We have a classic computer SIG on the local freenet now so
things are looking a little better.

I'm still trying to find a source for a monitor for my
VAXstation II/GPX

And I'm arranging a local project to restore not so old
machines and get them back into use.



----- Original Message -----
From: Claude <claudew@sprint.ca>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2000 10:46 PM
Subject: Who collects (reads the mailing list...?) vintage
computers in Quebec, Canada?


> Hi
>
> Sometimes I think I may be the only vintage computer
collector in
> Quebec, Canada.
>
> I would like to hear if anybody else does any collecting
around here
> (Montreal area)
>
> I have yet to find anybody to trade or talk collecting
face-to-face
> anywhere around here even if I have posted on several
montreal
> newsgroups that I am looking to buy/trade this kinda
stuff...
>
> When I mention I collect vintage computers, people look at
me like I am
> due for a trip in the "wacko wagon"...
>
> Computers are tough to find here (not like california...)
I have managed
> to accumulate/fix/restore approx 50 micros (all working)
from the
> 197x-198x early 1990's...lotta books, software and
peripherals...
>
> Those who feel sad for me can send me their Lisa's, TRS
model IIIs and
> Next boxes ;->
>
> ...things I will probably never find around here and I
refuse to
> purchase them on ebay for a zillion bucks...
>
> Thanks for reading
> Claude


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Sun Oct 15 13:52:11 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: VMS with no documentation
Message-ID: <005001c036da$48868600$9d789a8d@ajp166>

From: Bill Pechter <pechter@pechter.dyndns.org>
>The real fun on VMS is how slick EDT is with a good VT100/220.
>


If you think EDT is slick... try TPU or LSE after that Word will be
intolerable.

Allison



From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Sun Oct 15 13:55:19 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: Greetings!
Message-ID: <005101c036da$491aafb0$9d789a8d@ajp166>

>At 22:55 14-10-2000 -0700, you wrote:
>
>>Hello all, my name is Gene Buckle and I run the Commercial CP/M
Software
>>Archive at http://deltasoft.fife.wa.us/cpm.


Gene, welcome to classiccmp.  Say Hi to Tim O. too.

Allison


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Sun Oct 15 13:58:09 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: Need help or service manual for RS COCO mini disk 26-3022...
Message-ID: <005201c036da$49abf330$9d789a8d@ajp166>

>I am sure there was a service manual for these, RS had a service manual
for
>almost everything they sold back then including stuff like
calculators!...I
>actually bought a lot of about 300 at one point and threw them all out
after
>a few years not using them....
>
>Thanks for the reply
>Claude


Contact RS, they may still have manuals.

The TEC201 is unfamiliar to me but the mechanism sounds like the Shugart
by a different name.

The alternate solution is a newer 48tpi drive jumperd as needed.

Allison


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Oct 15 13:11:52 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: RL02 Sanity Check
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001013233554.00961100@pop.sttl.uswest.net> from "Bruce Lane" at Oct 13, 0 11:35:54 pm
Message-ID: <m13ksGJ-000IyJC@p850ug1>

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Oct 15 13:27:03 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: Need help or service manual for RS COCO mini disk 26-3022...
In-Reply-To: <39E91583.558D9631@sprint.ca> from "Claude" at Oct 14, 0 10:25:07 pm
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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Oct 15 13:31:32 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: Need help or service manual for RS COCO mini disk 26-3022...
In-Reply-To: <001601c03661$76ac39e0$2b00a8c0@Gamer_Claude.HOME> from "Claude.W" at Oct 15, 0 00:35:57 am
Message-ID: <m13ksZL-000IyPC@p850ug1>

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From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Sun Oct 15 14:03:11 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: Need help or service manual for RS COCO mini disk 26-3022...
Message-ID: <005b01c036db$b05d0dc0$9d789a8d@ajp166>

>At least around here, the very FIRST drives that RS made available for
the
>Coco were Shugart SA400s.  That is a 35 track drive with the spiral
groove
>disk.  Allison pointed out that there was a later model (SA400L) that
>could handle 40 track.  BTW, if you have decent machine shop
capabilities,
>the SA400 could easily be modified for more tracks, but it is NOT a
>handheld Dremel task.


Actually if you have SA400s better to replace them with most anything
else unless it's strict preservation.  I still have a few for that
reason.
Those things were horrid.

>Later drives around here included Tandon (TM100-1)? and TEC.  Tandon
uses


The TM100 was far better.

>Was the "TEC" label on the drive itself, or on the case (possibly a
drive
>had been changed?)


Likely TEC on the outer case, thats why I said open it and see if they
are SA400s.

Allison


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Sun Oct 15 14:12:04 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: Greetings!
Message-ID: <007501c036dd$16f8cb90$9d789a8d@ajp166>

>Hello all, my name is Gene Buckle and I run the Commercial CP/M Software
>Archive at http://deltasoft.fife.wa.us/cpm.
>
>This list was pointed out to me by a nice gent on comp.os.cpm.  I've got
a
>MicroVAX II that I need drives for.  Both of my RD54 drives have pretty
>much given up the ghost.  I'd like to obtain a SCSI board for it since
my
>chances of getting a pair of RD54 drives are fairly slim. :)  If anyone
>knows where I can get one, please let me know.


RD54s are Maxtor2190s 159mb 1224 cyl, 15 heads.  You can substitute
other MFM dives if you can find the formatter (or a MV2000 to use as
formatter).  VMS is fairly tolerent of different drives, NetBSD does too.

>rx55[?] two 8 port serial boards (DHV-11's I think) and a DEQUNA
ethernet


RX55?  do you mean RX50 (dual 5.25 SSDD 96tpi) or RX33 (5.25 teac
fd55GFV that does both RC50 and 1.2mb RX33)?

Allison


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Sun Oct 15 14:19:48 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: Microvax II
Message-ID: <007601c036dd$17964410$9d789a8d@ajp166>

Ok, lets try this way.

You want to use a disgustingly large drive (Larger than 8GB)
on a Qbus controller.

First problem, do you have a SCSI-(anything) that knows and
can handle drives larger 4 or 8GB regardless of the connector?

Assuming you have that covered, can you back it up in an
average lifetime?

Allison

From: Jerome Fine <jhfine@idirect.com>
>
>> >Anyone out there who wants to try?  I would be very pleased to
>> >swap some of my time for a couple of SCSI 32 GByte hard drives
>> >to test out the software.  The only problem is that the only SCSI
>> >host adapters I have are the 50 pin type (CQD 220/M), so there
>> I've run my PDP11 with SCSI CQD already as it's MSCP, Same
>> for VAX/VMS (it's in my MVII).
>
>Jerome Fine replies:
>
>It seem like we agree.  The question I was asking was whether or not
>SCSI-2 drives with the 50 pin interface are made that have a capacity
>of more than 9.2 Gbytes such as the ST410800N - preferably at
>least 16 GBytes are maybe even 32 Gbytes.  Since I already know
>about this Seagate drive and I agree that is is reasonable in cost, it
>is the larger drives that I am asking about - sorry if I was not clear
>as to the question.
>
>> It's limited to 4 or 8gb and SCSI-II so forget the reall monster
drives.
>
>Are you sure?  Is anyone aware of larger drives that still use the 50
pin
>SCSI-2 interface?
>
>> The idea of such huge drive with RT11 and friends is that is wasted.
>> I use D540s (31mb) and swap them like carts as I have a bunch of em
>> and they are plenty big enough.  Drives in the 120-400MB range are
>> plentyful for me, one 200mb drive would take all the binaries and
>> sources I have with room to spare that aren't already on Tims CD.
>> Whats the point?
>
>The point is that maybe you are not the only person who runs with
>drives that are so small.  And while I agree with you that probably
>most RT-11 or TSX-PLUS users do not use drives even as large
>as 2 GBytes (I use a 600 MByte drive myself and find that is normally
>more than enough capacity), there may be a few who could benefit
>from even larger drives.  The problem with the standard MSCP
>DU(X).SYS device driver in RT-11 is that the software limits the user
>to easily using drives that are smaller than 8 GBytes.  While I know
>that you are aware of the limitation, the actual question I asked is
>if MSCP allows the hardware use of drives up to a 32 bit block
>number?  Again, I obviously did not make my question clear
>enough since you did not answer it.  Namely, if the DU(X).SYS
>device driver in RT-11 could handle sending more than a 24 bit
>block number to the hard disk drive via the use of SET commands
>(which would allow a partition number with more than 8 bits), could
>the hardware handle that?
>
>I did not say that everyone would want to make use of that feature
>if it were possible - I know that you will not and I will not.  I was
>just asking if it were possible and maybe someone might want
>to do so?
>
>I guess that the point I am trying to make is that I enjoy a software
>challenge whereas you enjoy a hardware challenge.  I look a
>some hardware and see what is.  You look at the same hardware
>and see what could be.  I guess that I do the same with software.
>Then I also go ahead and try make it work.  Many times, I actually
>can enhance or fix software just as you make changes to the hardware.
>Can we agree on that?
>
>Sincerely yours,
>
>Jerome Fine
>


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Sun Oct 15 14:32:58 2000
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: Greetings!
In-Reply-To: <005101c036da$491aafb0$9d789a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <PGEOIPOKPPLEFPGCLAFAMEFCCDAA.geneb@deltasoft.com>

> >At 22:55 14-10-2000 -0700, you wrote:
> >
> >>Hello all, my name is Gene Buckle and I run the Commercial CP/M
> Software
> >>Archive at http://deltasoft.fife.wa.us/cpm.
> 
> 
> Gene, welcome to classiccmp.  Say Hi to Tim O. too.

Thanks Allison!  I haven't heard from Tim in _months_.

g.


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Oct 15 14:34:24 2000
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: Need help or service manual for RS COCO mini disk 26-3022...
In-Reply-To: <005201c036da$49abf330$9d789a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010151225220.16049-100000@lanshark.lanminds.com>

On Sun, 15 Oct 2000, ajp166 wrote:
> Contact RS, they may still have manuals.
> The TEC201 is unfamiliar to me but the mechanism sounds like the Shugart
> by a different name.

I don't think so.  I recall the TEC as being the drive with the "slide
switch" on the front (mechanical latch for the door?)  I DON'T think that
it used a Shugart style positioner.  That's part of why I expressed the
possibility that the label was NOT correct for the drive.

BTW, the mod to SA400s for 40 track was >20 years ago.  Almost everybody
went to MPI, Tandon, etc. drives instead as soon as those were available.
It was even hard to sell an SA400 at VCF! ($4.00)

> The alternate solution is a newer 48tpi drive jumperd as needed.

The TEC (or Tandon or Shugart) drive can also be tested in a PC.  But
Radio Shack jumpered ALL of the drive selects "ON", whereas IBM jumpered
every drive as if it were the second drive.  So, to use a RS drive in a
PC, you would need to interrupt the signals on pins 10 and 14.  On Tandons
and the like, that was a jumper block.  On the TEC, it might require
cutting traces (readily accessible in a group).
When formatting in a PC, specify "/1", since you can only format single
sided.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred        cisin@xenosoft.com


From forslund at tbaytel3.tbaytel.net  Sun Oct 15 10:41:11 2000
From: forslund at tbaytel3.tbaytel.net (The Forslunds)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: Who collects (reads the mailing list...?) vintage computers 
In-Reply-To: <39E91A81.6D7825C1@sprint.ca>
Message-ID: <200010151942.PAA24042@tbaytel.net>

Hello Claude and others,

This is my first "posting?", so I'm a bit nervous about doing this.

Isolation sounds like a trend up here in Canada by the replies to 
Claude's posting so far. I live in Thunder Bay, Ontario. It's a 
smaller city of about 120,000 people, and 500 miles from any larger 
cities (Winnipeg or Minneapolis). I have not found anyone here who 
collects the older technology, and many people are glad to have a way 
of disposing of their older machines that have been gathering dust. 
:-) However, i don't have room for most of the items, and have 
declined to take a few systems. :-(   I have just recently joined 
this list, and have enjoyed "listening?" to the discussions. 
Hopefully i will be able to assist some of you in the future.

My focus is on older "microcomputers" at this time from about 
1975 to the early 1980's.  In 1977, i built a digital group Z-80 kit,
and have just recently renewed my interest in older computers. 
Eventually, I would like to build a system from scratch as a learning 
experience, but have a lot to learn yet, since my focus in the past 
was mostly on the software, not the hardware.

Thank you for your time and many interesting discussions,
Good luck Claude on locating others in the Montreal area.

Bob

> Hi
> 
> Sometimes I think I may be the only vintage computer collector in
> Quebec, Canada.
> 
> I would like to hear if anybody else does any collecting around here
> (Montreal area)
> 
> I have yet to find anybody to trade or talk collecting face-to-face
> anywhere around here even if I have posted on several montreal
> newsgroups that I am looking to buy/trade this kinda stuff...
> 
> When I mention I collect vintage computers, people look at me like I am
> due for a trip in the "wacko wagon"...
> 
> Computers are tough to find here (not like california...) I have managed
> to accumulate/fix/restore approx 50 micros (all working) from the
> 197x-198x early 1990's...lotta books, software and peripherals...
> 
> Those who feel sad for me can send me their Lisa's, TRS model IIIs and
> Next boxes ;-> 
> 
> ...things I will probably never find around here and I refuse to
> purchase them on ebay for a zillion bucks...
> 
> Thanks for reading
> Claude
 
 

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Sun Oct 15 14:50:21 2000
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: Greetings!
In-Reply-To: <007501c036dd$16f8cb90$9d789a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <PGEOIPOKPPLEFPGCLAFAGEFDCDAA.geneb@deltasoft.com>

> RD54s are Maxtor2190s 159mb 1224 cyl, 15 heads.  You can substitute
> other MFM dives if you can find the formatter (or a MV2000 to use as
> formatter).  VMS is fairly tolerent of different drives, NetBSD does too.
>
Ok.  I seem to recall having a diagnostic on TK50 that's got a formatter on
it..

> RX55?  do you mean RX50 (dual 5.25 SSDD 96tpi) or RX33 (5.25 teac
> fd55GFV that does both RC50 and 1.2mb RX33)?

It's an RX50.  It's been a LONG time since I've used this system. :)

g.


From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Sun Oct 15 16:20:37 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: Who collects (reads the mailing list...?) vintage
  computers 
In-Reply-To: <200010151942.PAA24042@tbaytel.net>
References: <39E91A81.6D7825C1@sprint.ca>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001015162037.3c8f9d12@mailhost.intellistar.net>

At 03:41 PM 10/15/00 +0000, you wrote:
>Hello Claude and others,
>
>This is my first "posting?", so I'm a bit nervous about doing this.
>
>Isolation sounds like a trend up here in Canada by the replies to 
>Claude's posting so far. I live in Thunder Bay, Ontario. It's a 
>smaller city of about 120,000 people, and 500 miles from any larger 
>cities (Winnipeg or Minneapolis). I have not found anyone here who 
>collects the older technology, and many people are glad to have a way 
>of disposing of their older machines that have been gathering dust. 
>:-) However, i don't have room for most of the items, and have 
>declined to take a few systems. :-(   I have just recently joined 
>this list, and have enjoyed "listening?" to the discussions. 
>Hopefully i will be able to assist some of you in the future.
>
>My focus is on older "microcomputers" at this time from about 
>1975 to the early 1980's.  In 1977, i built a digital group Z-80 kit,

  Hi Bob,

  Do you still have any docs or software for the Digital Group computer?
I'm working on picking one up. 

   Relocated Newfy now in Florida. I used to think this place had poor
pickings as far as old computers go but lately I've been turning up all
kinds of stuff.

    Joe


>and have just recently renewed my interest in older computers. 
>Eventually, I would like to build a system from scratch as a learning 
>experience, but have a lot to learn yet, since my focus in the past 
>was mostly on the software, not the hardware.
>
>Thank you for your time and many interesting discussions,
>Good luck Claude on locating others in the Montreal area.
>
>Bob
>
>> Hi
>> 
>> Sometimes I think I may be the only vintage computer collector in
>> Quebec, Canada.
>> 
>> I would like to hear if anybody else does any collecting around here
>> (Montreal area)
>> 
>> I have yet to find anybody to trade or talk collecting face-to-face
>> anywhere around here even if I have posted on several montreal
>> newsgroups that I am looking to buy/trade this kinda stuff...
>> 
>> When I mention I collect vintage computers, people look at me like I am
>> due for a trip in the "wacko wagon"...
>> 
>> Computers are tough to find here (not like california...) I have managed
>> to accumulate/fix/restore approx 50 micros (all working) from the
>> 197x-198x early 1990's...lotta books, software and peripherals...
>> 
>> Those who feel sad for me can send me their Lisa's, TRS model IIIs and
>> Next boxes ;-> 
>> 
>> ...things I will probably never find around here and I refuse to
>> purchase them on ebay for a zillion bucks...
>> 
>> Thanks for reading
>> Claude
> 
> 
>


From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Sun Oct 15 16:23:02 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: Need help or service manual for RS COCO mini disk
  26-3022...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010150937040.10127-100000@lanshark.lanminds
 .com>
References: <001601c03661$76ac39e0$2b00a8c0@Gamer_Claude.HOME>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001015162302.3717e108@mailhost.intellistar.net>

At 09:44 AM 10/15/00 -0700, "The Forslunds" <forslund@tbaytel3.tbaytel.net>
wrote:
>On Sun, 15 Oct 2000, Claude.W wrote:
>> >>These are the 1st floppy disks for the COCO made by RS. The units are
>> >>TEC FB-201.
>
>At least around here, the very FIRST drives that RS made available for the
>Coco were Shugart SA400s.  That is a 35 track drive with the spiral groove
>disk.  Allison pointed out that there was a later model (SA400L) that
>could handle 40 track.  BTW, if you have decent machine shop capabilities,
>the SA400 could easily be modified for more tracks, but it is NOT a
>handheld Dremel task.


   How many tracks can they be made to handle? Any details about how you go
about changing them?

    Joe


From jhellige at earthlink.net  Sun Oct 15 15:40:15 2000
From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: my return
Message-ID: <a05001904b60fc644b7af@[63.26.234.131]>

Hello All,

	After a roughly 3 year absence from this list, I've finally 
settled down in one place long enough to be able to handle it's 
traffic once again.  I look forward to all the good discussions once 
again!

	Jeff
-- 
            Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4
        Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems:
                 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757

From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Sun Oct 15 16:05:35 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: Need help or service manual for RS COCO mini disk 26-3022...
Message-ID: <011501c036ec$311e3960$9d789a8d@ajp166>

From: Joe <rigdonj@intellistar.net>


>>Coco were Shugart SA400s.  That is a 35 track drive with the spiral
groove
>>disk.  Allison pointed out that there was a later model (SA400L) that
>>could handle 40 track.  BTW, if you have decent machine shop
capabilities,
>>the SA400 could easily be modified for more tracks, but it is NOT a
>>handheld Dremel task.
>
>
>   How many tracks can they be made to handle? Any details about how you
go
>about changing them?


The number is 40 and it's at 48tpi.  Te trick before the SA400L (40 tr)
version
was around was to mill the groove further and mill the end stop.  Both
were
done at high precision.  Or sub in the disk from the sa400L.

It was done back in the days when 35 tr was passe` and 40 tracks were
emerging as the standard for 5.25 floppies.  It was a big deal then as
with
single density that meant another 12.5k on an 90k disk.  If you had DD
controller so much the better.

Other common mods were to go to SA450s (40 cylinders two sides) or
other far better drives.

Allison


From THETechnoid at home.com  Sat Oct 14 15:08:57 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: NeXt Cube Offer for shipping
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010141142340.7453-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <20001015211501.IOWM11792.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

My brother Mike has quite a few collectable machines in Salt Lake City,
UT. He guestimates 400lbs in hardware stored in Salt Lake City, UT.  

Mike offers a Next Cube, monitor (greyscale), keyboard, mouse etc, with
40mb ram to the person who will ship his other machines to him in Kinchelo
Michigan.

You can respond to me or to Thanatos@30below.com

Thanks,

Jeff

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From THETechnoid at home.com  Sun Oct 15 16:25:23 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: Dauphin DTR-1 running Ersatz-11
In-Reply-To: <v04020a00b60ed01a375b@[192.168.1.5]>
Message-ID: <20001015212739.IYGA11792.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

In <v04020a00b60ed01a375b@[192.168.1.5]>, on 10/15/00 
   at 05:25 PM, "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com> said:
>set cpu 23
>mount dl0: c:\e11\rt11.dsk
>boot dl0:
>However, it just sort of sits there, and does nothing :^(  Anyone have
>any ideas?  It's not showing any indication of RT-11 booting.

I have troubles with my lunchbox case's proprietary ISA video card.  The
card drives the LCD and so is the only one I can use if I want to use the
onboard display.  Win95,98,NT, and Linux (Xwindows) will not run on the
machine at all. The only thing that will even install is OS/2 Warp4.  This
is fine for me because Warp is what I wanted in the first place. I wanted
another OS just for kicks. I use the machine as an MP3 player for my car.

We created playlists and used the machine at our wedding last September.
Thank God for friends because my 2kw UPS is a HEAVY bitch.....

Maybe you are having similar trouble with your emulator. Perhaps trying
the emulator in a DOSBox in Windows might help work around it.

It also might have something to do with Smartdrive being enabled or (base)
memory issues.  In Config.sys:

Device=C:\dos\himem.sys /testmem:off
Device=c:\dos\emm386.exe noems
Files=60
Buffers=40
Dos=high,UMB


Remove any superfluous lines in config and Autoexec and see what happens.

Sorry if you know all this allready.  Just trying to help.

Why in hell a 32bit microprocessor needs to bitbang ram is just beyond me.
Microsoft couldn't write themselves out of a paper bag.

Regards,

Jeff


-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From donm at cts.com  Sun Oct 15 16:55:00 2000
From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:57 2005
Subject: Who collects (reads the mailing list...?) vintage computers in
 Quebec,  Canada?
In-Reply-To: <39E926C7.22248.7801188@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.SCO.4.20.0010151453450.4449-100000@crash.cts.com>



On Sun, 15 Oct 2000, Lawrence Walker wrote:

> 
> 
> > Hi
> > 
> > Sometimes I think I may be the only vintage computer collector in
> > Quebec, Canada.
> > 
> > I would like to hear if anybody else does any collecting around here
> > (Montreal area)
> > 
> > I have yet to find anybody to trade or talk collecting face-to-face
> > anywhere around here even if I have posted on several montreal
> > newsgroups that I am looking to buy/trade this kinda stuff...
> > 
> > When I mention I collect vintage computers, people look at me like I
> > am due for a trip in the "wacko wagon"...
> > 
> > Computers are tough to find here (not like california...) I have
> > managed to accumulate/fix/restore approx 50 micros (all working) from
> > the 197x-198x early 1990's...lotta books, software and peripherals...
> > 
> > Those who feel sad for me can send me their Lisa's, TRS model IIIs and
> > Next boxes ;-> 
> > 
> > ...things I will probably never find around here and I refuse to
> > purchase them on ebay for a zillion bucks...
> > 
> > Thanks for reading
> > Claude
> > 
>  There's a fair number of Canucks on the list but the only one in 
> Montreal I can recall is Doug Spence <hrothgar@total.net>
>  Haven't seen any posts from him for a while but he should still 
> have his old collection and possible treasure bin sources. There 
> was a very good place in St. Laurent that had lots of good stuff but
> last I heard they had some hassle with the city licensors. Doug
> would know if they are still in business. I'm in Toronto but have kids
> and grandchildren there so I occasionally visit.
> 
>  Yeah, you gotta envy those California guys,  if it doesn't all slide
> into the Pacific. :^))

What we are planning on is that it will just slide further west and then
be beachfront on both sides :)
						 - don
 
> ciao		larry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reply to:
> lgwalker@look.ca
> 


From harrison at timharrison.com  Sun Oct 15 16:55:24 2000
From: harrison at timharrison.com (Tim Harrison)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: Dauphin DTR-1 running Ersatz-11
References: <20001015212739.IYGA11792.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>
Message-ID: <39EA27CC.2FB901B@timharrison.com>

THETechnoid@home.com wrote:

> We created playlists and used the machine at our wedding last September.

That's how my wife and I did our wedding party as well.  I took my main
Linux workstation along, had about 5 hours of MP3s (had to copy them
from the fileserver... that took FOREVER), and my home stereo (which has
a little bit of kick to it).

We had people from the Inn (Bear Mountain Inn in New York State) coming
in to check out what was going on.  I suppose they'd seen me bringing in
this computer, and when they walked by, they saw it was the DJ. :)

And it was supposed to be a technology-free wedding and party. 
Infinitely cheaper than hiring someone.  And much less annoying.  NO
CHICKEN DANCE!

Now, if only my NeXT could have handled the MP3s.  That would have been
much cooler.

-- 


Tim Harrison
Network Engineer
harrison@timharrison.com
http://www.networklevel.com/

From donm at cts.com  Sun Oct 15 17:21:13 2000
From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: Need help or service manual for RS COCO mini disk 26-3022...
In-Reply-To: <011501c036ec$311e3960$9d789a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <Pine.SCO.4.20.0010151520330.4449-100000@crash.cts.com>



On Sun, 15 Oct 2000, ajp166 wrote:

> From: Joe <rigdonj@intellistar.net>
> 
> 
> >>Coco were Shugart SA400s.  That is a 35 track drive with the spiral
> groove
> >>disk.  Allison pointed out that there was a later model (SA400L) that
> >>could handle 40 track.  BTW, if you have decent machine shop
> capabilities,
> >>the SA400 could easily be modified for more tracks, but it is NOT a
> >>handheld Dremel task.
> >
> >
> >   How many tracks can they be made to handle? Any details about how you
> go
> >about changing them?
> 
> 
> The number is 40 and it's at 48tpi.  Te trick before the SA400L (40 tr)
> version
> was around was to mill the groove further and mill the end stop.  Both
> were
> done at high precision.  Or sub in the disk from the sa400L.
> 
> It was done back in the days when 35 tr was passe` and 40 tracks were
> emerging as the standard for 5.25 floppies.  It was a big deal then as
> with
> single density that meant another 12.5k on an 90k disk.  If you had DD
> controller so much the better.
> 
> Other common mods were to go to SA450s (40 cylinders two sides) or
> other far better drives.

455's?  
						 - don 
> Allison
> 
> 


From richard at idcomm.com  Sun Oct 15 17:36:19 2000
From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: Who collects (reads the mailing list...?) vintage computers 
References: <39E91A81.6D7825C1@sprint.ca> <3.0.1.16.20001015162037.3c8f9d12@mailhost.intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <002601c036f8$5741e720$0500fea9@winbook>

Though I never got "into" the Digital Group hardware to any extent, it was
made here, in the Denver area, and since I once worked for one Robert
Suding, who was one of the DB principals and the mind behind many of the
decisions (except the ones made by Dick Bemis, the "business-head") and who
still lives in this area, albeit in retirement, I do have a couple of DG
boards, and have had a small exposure to the stuff.  They made several CPU
boards to go with their various CPU's and, depending on which CPU you have,
I may be able to help you with some software.  My interest, however, was in
the 6502 CPU, which means I will be of little help if you have the 6800 or
Z80.

Dick

----- Original Message -----
From: Joe <rigdonj@intellistar.net>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2000 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: Who collects (reads the mailing list...?) vintage computers


> At 03:41 PM 10/15/00 +0000, you wrote:
> >Hello Claude and others,
> >
> >This is my first "posting?", so I'm a bit nervous about doing this.
> >
> >Isolation sounds like a trend up here in Canada by the replies to
> >Claude's posting so far. I live in Thunder Bay, Ontario. It's a
> >smaller city of about 120,000 people, and 500 miles from any larger
> >cities (Winnipeg or Minneapolis). I have not found anyone here who
> >collects the older technology, and many people are glad to have a way
> >of disposing of their older machines that have been gathering dust.
> >:-) However, i don't have room for most of the items, and have
> >declined to take a few systems. :-(   I have just recently joined
> >this list, and have enjoyed "listening?" to the discussions.
> >Hopefully i will be able to assist some of you in the future.
> >
> >My focus is on older "microcomputers" at this time from about
> >1975 to the early 1980's.  In 1977, i built a digital group Z-80 kit,
>
>   Hi Bob,
>
>   Do you still have any docs or software for the Digital Group computer?
> I'm working on picking one up.
>
>    Relocated Newfy now in Florida. I used to think this place had poor
> pickings as far as old computers go but lately I've been turning up all
> kinds of stuff.
>
>     Joe
>
>
> >and have just recently renewed my interest in older computers.
> >Eventually, I would like to build a system from scratch as a learning
> >experience, but have a lot to learn yet, since my focus in the past
> >was mostly on the software, not the hardware.
> >
> >Thank you for your time and many interesting discussions,
> >Good luck Claude on locating others in the Montreal area.
> >
> >Bob
> >
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> Sometimes I think I may be the only vintage computer collector in
> >> Quebec, Canada.
> >>
> >> I would like to hear if anybody else does any collecting around here
> >> (Montreal area)
> >>
> >> I have yet to find anybody to trade or talk collecting face-to-face
> >> anywhere around here even if I have posted on several montreal
> >> newsgroups that I am looking to buy/trade this kinda stuff...
> >>
> >> When I mention I collect vintage computers, people look at me like I am
> >> due for a trip in the "wacko wagon"...
> >>
> >> Computers are tough to find here (not like california...) I have
managed
> >> to accumulate/fix/restore approx 50 micros (all working) from the
> >> 197x-198x early 1990's...lotta books, software and peripherals...
> >>
> >> Those who feel sad for me can send me their Lisa's, TRS model IIIs and
> >> Next boxes ;->
> >>
> >> ...things I will probably never find around here and I refuse to
> >> purchase them on ebay for a zillion bucks...
> >>
> >> Thanks for reading
> >> Claude
> >
> >
> >
>
>


From forslund at tbaytel3.tbaytel.net  Sun Oct 15 14:44:06 2000
From: forslund at tbaytel3.tbaytel.net (The Forslunds)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: Who collects (reads the mailing list...?) vintage computers 
In-Reply-To: <002601c036f8$5741e720$0500fea9@winbook>
Message-ID: <200010152344.TAA90636@tbaytel.net>

Hi Dick,

You wrote:
> Though I never got "into" the Digital Group hardware to any extent, it was
> made here, in the Denver area, and since I once worked for one Robert
> Suding, who was one of the DB principals and the mind behind many of the
> decisions (except the ones made by Dick Bemis, the "business-head") and who
> still lives in this area, albeit in retirement, I do have a couple of DG
> boards, and have had a small exposure to the stuff.  They made several CPU
> boards to go with their various CPU's and, depending on which CPU you have,
> I may be able to help you with some software.  My interest, however, was in
> the 6502 CPU, which means I will be of little help if you have the 6800 or
> Z80.

Thanks for the information on the digital group. I'm very interested 
in the history of these older computers, and especially the digital 
group. 
It's the Z-80 kit that i built. The system had 4 boards - no fancy 
cases ;-). However, my nephew has the system at this time, but I'm 
hoping to get it back sometime. Good to hear that there are others 
out there interested in digital group systems. I was _very_ impressed 
with the system back in the 70's and it performed very well for me 
for years, and i was disappointed when they folded. I only regret 
that I didn't purchase the other 3 processor boards - 6800, 8080 and 
6502. I would like to play with these now.

Bob
> 
> Dick
 

From forslund at tbaytel3.tbaytel.net  Sun Oct 15 14:44:06 2000
From: forslund at tbaytel3.tbaytel.net (The Forslunds)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: Who collects (reads the mailing list...?) vintage  computers
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001015162037.3c8f9d12@mailhost.intellistar.net>
References: <200010151942.PAA24042@tbaytel.net>
Message-ID: <200010152344.TAA24844@tbaytel.net>

Hi Joe,

> >My focus is on older "microcomputers" at this time from about 
> >1975 to the early 1980's.  In 1977, i built a digital group Z-80 kit,
> 
>   Hi Bob,
> 
>   Do you still have any docs or software for the Digital Group computer?
> I'm working on picking one up. 

I don't have much of original documentation - not sure where it 
ended up - may have thrown it out :-(, and my nephew has the dg Z-80 
hardware at this time, which I'm hoping to get it back. However, i 
don't have the original cassettes either, and the TV that i modified 
also got pitched years ago. I purchased a Z-80 assembler and TINY 
BASIC back then, and have a bit of documentation on that, but no 
cassettes. Also, if you have the older Byte magazines, the Sept. 1976 
issue p.62-71 has an article that has the schematic for the Z-80 
board (by Robert Suding who i believe started the digital group). If 
you don't have this issue, email me, and I can send you a photocopy.

>    Relocated Newfy now in Florida. I used to think this place had poor
> pickings as far as old computers go but lately I've been turning up all
> kinds of stuff.

My grandparents were from Newfoundland - beautiful place, and very 
friendly people.
> 
>     Joe
 

From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net  Sun Oct 15 21:05:06 2000
From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (Sue & Francois)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: my return
References: <a05001904b60fc644b7af@[63.26.234.131]>
Message-ID: <00b701c03715$81237780$0264a8c0@mediaone.net>

Oh boy are you in for a surprise

Everybody has gone mad. some of them even collect computers...

Good to have you back 
Francois



> Hello All,
> 
> After a roughly 3 year absence from this list, I've finally 
> settled down in one place long enough to be able to handle it's 
> traffic once again.  I look forward to all the good discussions once 
> again!
> 
> Jeff
> -- 
>             Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4
>         Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems:
>                  http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757


From jhellige at earthlink.net  Sun Oct 15 19:25:43 2000
From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: my return
In-Reply-To: <00b701c03715$81237780$0264a8c0@mediaone.net>
References: <a05001904b60fc644b7af@[63.26.234.131]>
 <00b701c03715$81237780$0264a8c0@mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <a05001901b60ffb10236a@[63.23.227.116]>

HI Francois,

	thanks for the welcome back!  My own collection has grown 
considerably since I last posted on this list.  By the look of the 
archive, there appears to be a lot more disussion on the VAX machines 
than there used to be.  In about a month, I get the pleasure of 
moving all of my equipment to a new apartment about 3-1/2 hours from 
here...should be interesting!

	Jeff

>Oh boy are you in for a surprise
>
>Everybody has gone mad. some of them even collect computers...
>
>Good to have you back
>Francois
-- 
            Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4
        Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems:
                 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757

From THETechnoid at home.com  Sun Oct 15 19:39:12 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: 48v dc power
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001012104050.024619e0@binhost.com>
Message-ID: <20001016003327.OCDO11792.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

In <5.0.0.25.2.20001012104050.024619e0@binhost.com>, on 10/15/00 
   at 08:39 PM, Tarsi <tarsi@binhost.com> said:

>Now, granted, with all my electronics around my apartment (25-30
>computers  + audio + phone), no doubt my power is less than clean, not to
>say anything  about transmission rates for my ethernet or the cancer I'm
>getting from the  EMF radiation. :)

I heard that!  I wonder what my machines are doing to the airwaves.  I've
walked around the house with my shortwave receiver looking for freqs from
the khz range up to 30mhz.  Not really a problem.  Radio Moscow comes in
clear even if I have the whole house 'lit up'.  

Does this mean I have clean systems or should I test some more?

Regards,

Jeff

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From THETechnoid at home.com  Sun Oct 15 19:50:27 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: Who collects (reads the mailing list...?) vintage computers
In-Reply-To: <200010151942.PAA24042@tbaytel.net>
Message-ID: <20001016011404.PHWN11792.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

In <200010151942.PAA24042@tbaytel.net>, on 10/15/00 
   at 08:50 PM, "The Forslunds" <forslund@tbaytel3.tbaytel.net> said:

>Hello Claude and others,

>This is my first "posting?", so I'm a bit nervous about doing this.

Don't be.  Most people around here are kind except for your's truely when
he has been drinking........

>Isolation sounds like a trend up here in Canada by the replies to 
>Claude's posting so far. I live in Thunder Bay, Ontario. It's a  smaller
>city of about 120,000 people, and 500 miles from any larger  cities
>(Winnipeg or Minneapolis). I have not found anyone here who  collects the
>older technology, and many people are glad to have a way  of disposing of
>their older machines that have been gathering dust.  :-) However, i don't
>have room for most of the items, and have  declined to take a few
>systems. :-(   I have just recently joined  this list, and have enjoyed
>"listening?" to the discussions.  Hopefully i will be able to assist some
>of you in the future.

Welcome. Too bad you have more offers than you can deal with <grin>.  I
only wish I were in the same boat....

>My focus is on older "microcomputers" at this time from about  1975 to
>the early 1980's.  In 1977, i built a digital group Z-80 kit, and have
>just recently renewed my interest in older computers.  Eventually, I
>would like to build a system from scratch as a learning  experience, but
>have a lot to learn yet, since my focus in the past  was mostly on the
>software, not the hardware.

I enjoy early micros as well and am looking for a full-blown coco system
at the moment.

>> Sometimes I think I may be the only vintage computer collector in
>> Quebec, Canada.

Sometimes I feel I'm the only one in North Carolina.  Not the same, but
still frustrating.

>> When I mention I collect vintage computers, people look at me like I am
>> due for a trip in the "wacko wagon"...

I get a similar response from my wife at times....  Really though, she is
very understanding and generally supportive.
 
>> Computers are tough to find here (not like california...) I have managed
>> to accumulate/fix/restore approx 50 micros (all working) from the
>> 197x-198x early 1990's...lotta books, software and peripherals...

No kidding.  I'd live in France before California, but the lure of the
machine makes Cali look tempting nonetheless. My freedom is more important
than my habit.  I may occasionaly visit California, but I would never live
there. Bread for freedom. Don't bother, Cali is a facist deathtrap. 

>> Those who feel sad for me can send me their Lisa's, TRS model IIIs and
>> Next boxes ;-> 

Sounds like you aren't hurting too badly for new gear but I'll keep it in
mind.

>> 
>> ...things I will probably never find around here and I refuse to
>> purchase them on ebay for a zillion bucks...

That is an interesting issue I see come up often.  Even though I don't
spend GOBS of money on my hobby I realize that sellers expect a profit. 
How do we reconcile our habit of aquiring machines for nothing with
sometimes having to pay?

Even suppliers of religious materials such as chalices and platters of
gold for ceremonies make money on thier products.  Sometimes I get the
impression that folks hate someone for making a buck on a sale of a
'sacred' article of equipment.  More often I hear the person complain that
the seller is making unreasonable demands.

Greed is a two-way street.  The seller displays greed sometimes by
inflating a price, and the buyer displays avarice and hate.  Avarice by
wanting the gear so badly and hate because the seller places the item out
of his reach.  This is called commerce.

Ed Kirby of CPB for instance is sitting on 16 VaxStation 4000/60's because
he thinks he can sell them as systems for $300.00 each.  This, I have
learned is unrealistic and that something like $120 to $150 each is more
like it.

For example, a DG MV9500 might be worth $900.00 (arbitrary figure) but the
TAPES that make the machine operate are nearly priceless.  What do you
then do?  Hate the fellow for failing to run a free copy, or pay him the
couple of hundred dollars extra for the original tapes? DG wants $1300.00
for those same tapes.  $300.00 for the scrapper's tapes is a bargain given
that. Especially if he throws in the drive and controller as part of the
bargain.  There are ways and then there are ways.

>> Thanks for reading
>> Claude

Thanks for writing.  Hope to hear from you again soon.

Regards,

Jeff

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Sun Oct 15 20:14:24 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: 48v dc power
Message-ID: <001a01c0370f$a6613740$9d789a8d@ajp166>

From: THETechnoid@home.com <THETechnoid@home.com>


>I heard that!  I wonder what my machines are doing to the airwaves.
I've
>walked around the house with my shortwave receiver looking for freqs
from
>the khz range up to 30mhz.  Not really a problem.  Radio Moscow comes in
>clear even if I have the whole house 'lit up'.
>
>Does this mean I have clean systems or should I test some more?


If you can't hear it on a resonable reciever your doing good.

Here I have birds on a lot of freqs and I've traced the source, the
monitor
is the worst culprit.  If I turn off the monitor it gets much quieter.

My favorite pastime is listening to the AM window at 3885KHz
on a custom monobander I made.  Keeping the systems in the cases
does help or I start hearing carriers up and down the bands.

Allison


From rdd at smart.net  Sun Oct 15 20:30:41 2000
From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: 48v dc power
In-Reply-To: <20001016003327.OCDO11792.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010152118450.3579-100000@smarty.smart.net>

On Sun, 15 Oct 2000 THETechnoid@home.com wrote:
> walked around the house with my shortwave receiver looking for freqs from
> the khz range up to 30mhz.  Not really a problem.  Radio Moscow comes in
> clear even if I have the whole house 'lit up'.  

It appears that you may have all of the covers on your systems... is
this correct?  A while back, I left the cover off of a disk drive
enclosure, and it affected AM radio reception all over the house (the
system was in the basement).  Some other systems, with open chasis, have
caused no apparent problems.

Out of curiosity, what's the furtherest distance anyone here has
noticed RFI from their systems (open or closed)?

--
Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of
All Rights Reserved            Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to
rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd   a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD 





From KenzieM at sympatico.ca  Sun Oct 15 21:32:10 2000
From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: testing
References: <35457871@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> from "Marion Bates" at Oct 5, 0 01:20:16 pm <39DD2483.8240.AA2F3F@localhost>
Message-ID: <004001c03719$4a421a10$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca>

Sorry to do this but I haven't seen any of my posts yet.



From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Sun Oct 15 21:49:30 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: 48v dc power
Message-ID: <002901c0371c$46a7ade0$9d789a8d@ajp166>

From: R. D. Davis <rdd@smart.net>


>Out of curiosity, what's the furtherest distance anyone here has
>noticed RFI from their systems (open or closed)?


400ft, 10mhz clock for a S100 z80 system that was also distributed to
other boards on the bus.  A modification to the termination of that line
virtually made it disappear, the standard terminators didn't actually
match the impedence of the line making it antenna.  Other hot one
was the Altair you could hear the 2mhz anywhere in the house
with the case on.  Usually if you can isolate the freq you can tame
it.  one that get me every time is the 15700 hz horizontal retrace
from TVs with most monitors running second, all plastic cased.

Most stuff in a metal box with screws in tend to be quiet and
commercial systems like DEC, SUN and HPs in full dress
tend to be quiet if made to the specs in effect after 1980ish.
PCs however are all over the map, some excellent and
some very poor.

Allison



From lgwalker at look.ca  Sun Oct 15 22:19:33 2000
From: lgwalker at look.ca (Lawrence Walker)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: Amiga-Commodore card images
Message-ID: <39EA3B85.13288.E771AC@localhost>

 Anyone into Amigas or Commodore should check out

http://www.amigazone.com/images/merlancia/ryan2/index1.html

A raft of scanned images of rare Commodore boards and cards.

ciao		larry

Reply to:
lgwalker@look.ca

From THETechnoid at home.com  Thu Oct 12 22:02:58 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: 48v dc power
In-Reply-To: <m13jqA0-000IyHC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <20001013025911.MCQX26920.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

My 1971 BMWR60/5 motorcycle has a similar system.  If the Alternator
warning bulb dies, it disables the charging system AND can't warn you
because the bulb is fried.


>Firstly, if the lamp burns out, it's likely that the alternator won't 
>start (the residual magnetism is not normally enough to get it going). So 
>the battery isn't being charged. But as the lamp has burnt out, it 
>doesn't light to show this.

>More seriously, if the field winding or brushes fail, then there won't be 
>enough current flowing to turn the bulb on (the first couple of regulator 
>stages take almost no current). Even though the battery isn't charged.

>I'm not sure what this lamp is supposed to show, but the most common 
>alternator problem -- worn brushes -- doesn't turn it on. Don't ask how I 
>found this out...

Not to mention my alternator is very weak by design.  Just enough to power
externals, ignition, and charging only to the point of maintainence.  A
hard start never really is paid back by the alternator unless the ride is
more than 20 to 100 miles.


Jeff
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From richard at idcomm.com  Sun Oct 15 22:25:34 2000
From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: Who collects (reads the mailing list...?) vintage computers 
References: <200010152344.TAA90636@tbaytel.net>
Message-ID: <002901c03720$bf662f00$0500fea9@winbook>

Robert Suding's favorite of the processors they supported was certainly the
Z80, but since they only had an 8K memory board up into '79, at which time
they finally got their long-overdue 32K memory cards out, and since I don't
think they ever came out with a current (for the time) FDC, I don't think
they ever got an OS running on it.

Of those of us who used it, the DG model was adequate, and, even
comparatively clean.  The 6502 CPU board had 2K of RAM on board and a 1702,
providing 256 bytes of Original Robert Suding monitor code.  It talked to
the audio cassette interface located on the same board with the video
interface.  Many of us, including myself, limited the amount of DG hardware
we used by running homebrew hardware, which is what I did, but I followed a
model designed by Tommy Billings, on a 44-pin bus.  That has outlasted the
DG stuff.

Dick

----- Original Message -----
From: The Forslunds <forslund@tbaytel3.tbaytel.net>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2000 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: Who collects (reads the mailing list...?) vintage computers


> Hi Dick,
>
> You wrote:
> > Though I never got "into" the Digital Group hardware to any extent, it
was
> > made here, in the Denver area, and since I once worked for one Robert
> > Suding, who was one of the DB principals and the mind behind many of the
> > decisions (except the ones made by Dick Bemis, the "business-head") and
who
> > still lives in this area, albeit in retirement, I do have a couple of DG
> > boards, and have had a small exposure to the stuff.  They made several
CPU
> > boards to go with their various CPU's and, depending on which CPU you
have,
> > I may be able to help you with some software.  My interest, however, was
in
> > the 6502 CPU, which means I will be of little help if you have the 6800
or
> > Z80.
>
> Thanks for the information on the digital group. I'm very interested
> in the history of these older computers, and especially the digital
> group.
> It's the Z-80 kit that i built. The system had 4 boards - no fancy
> cases ;-). However, my nephew has the system at this time, but I'm
> hoping to get it back sometime. Good to hear that there are others
> out there interested in digital group systems. I was _very_ impressed
> with the system back in the 70's and it performed very well for me
> for years, and i was disappointed when they folded. I only regret
> that I didn't purchase the other 3 processor boards - 6800, 8080 and
> 6502. I would like to play with these now.
>
> Bob
> >
> > Dick
>
>
>


From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com  Sun Oct 15 23:27:41 2000
From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: Fixing a TK86
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001015210234.00a38eb0@208.226.86.10>

Hello Everyone,

I seem to be in possesion of a "broke" TF86 drive. As far as I can tell the 
only thing "wrong" with it is that it seems to have unhooked its "tongue" 
(the take up leader) and I've fixed that. Now I was wondering if there were 
any tests I could run on it before I tried putting it into a chassis to see 
what it does :-). It has a separate "bridge board" that converts its HD50 
connector to DSSI.

Some things I'm trying to ascertain:
	1) Can I convert it to a TZ86 using the bridgeboard from a TK85? (they at 
least share connector similarity.
	2) Is there any way to test it without hooking it to a  DSSI bus?
	3) Does anyone know the MOLEX part number for the 5 space DSSI
	   power plug?

--Chuck


From ahm at spies.com  Sun Oct 15 23:40:21 2000
From: ahm at spies.com (Andreas Meyer)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: 48v dc power
In-Reply-To: <20001013025911.MCQX26920.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>; from THETechnoid@home.com on Thu, Oct 12, 2000 at 11:02:58PM -0400
References: <m13jqA0-000IyHC@p850ug1> <20001013025911.MCQX26920.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>
Message-ID: <20001016004021.A30980@spies.com>

FYI,

I think the clock on your OS/2 machine is running slow
by a few days.  You might want to check it.

Andy

From dburrows at netpath.net  Sun Oct 15 23:08:48 2000
From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: 48v dc power
Message-ID: <0fe001c0372d$29789c00$a652e780@L166>

>
>Most stuff in a metal box with screws in tend to be quiet and
>commercial systems like DEC, SUN and HPs in full dress
>tend to be quiet if made to the specs in effect after 1980ish.
>PCs however are all over the map, some excellent and
>some very poor.


But I know in the case of DEC that if they are open like my test beds are
then you can forget everything except REAL strong FM broadcast in the same
room.  The 2M rig with an outside antenna even gets hit.  This is in a metal
sided and roofed office trailer.

Dan


From jpl15 at panix.com  Mon Oct 16 01:45:32 2000
From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: R.F. Interference (Was 48V)
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0010160226200.25947-100000@panix6.panix.com>


  On Topic:  I am reminded by the "RFI" from open machines thread, of the
tried-and-true early computer music method of simply placing an AM
Broadcast reciever next to one's Box and then diddling the various
registers, front panel displays, etc., until the tones generated by the
RFI made the 'music' patterns in the radio's speaker.

  This was also echoed in the many compositions for various line and
dot-matrix printers, and the obscure but maybe better known theme music to
NPR's financial program (Wall Street Week?) [Louis Rukeyser] which used a
tape punched to make an ASR33 do a repeating pattern and the resulting
sounds recorded and used as the rhythmic basis for it, the which music was
called TWIX in Twelve Bars. (composer name escapes me completely)
 

  Off Topic:  Shortwave radios. I have gotten hold of an ICOM PCR-1000,
which is the actual 'radio' parts of a modern full-coverage receiver,
minus the front panel. One uses various programs on a PC.laptop, or Mac to
'run' the unit. Since the operation is computer-based, many possiblities
open up that were before only the province of agencies and *really*
dedicated radio-heads.  It covers 100KHtz -> 1.3GHtz continuous but for
the Cellular bands, which are blocked. It is the size of a small book and
wieghs a pound, runs on 12VDC. Just add antennae....

   www.icomamerica.com and look in 'recievers' for more info.

 Cheers

John



From THETechnoid at home.com  Thu Oct 12 20:32:03 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: Red Erasors, contacts, and gold revisited
In-Reply-To: <39E65DB4.14FC60BA@idirect.com>
Message-ID: <20001013012745.HJXM26920.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

Sorry to bring this one back up, but I was cruising the Classiccmp
archives and read the thread.

I liked the idea of dipping the erasor in alcohol.  Nice bearing fluid and
would help reduce abrasion as well as acting as a solvent and carrier for
gunk.

Not all contacts are gilt which is one application for abrasives.  The
hard disk MIO for my Atari 8-bit is an example. It's traces are unfinished
tin-colored things and they oxidize rapidly.

Some of you folks had solutions to check the oxidation such as silicone
grease.  Could you amplify on this and especially what type of grease and
where to find it.

Thanks all.

Jeff

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au  Mon Oct 16 04:25:59 2000
From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: Commodore 720
Message-ID: <005701c03753$215e1100$dadf8490@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au>

I don't seem to be finding much these days, so please excuse me showing this
off.
No keyboard unfortunately.

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=1166661&a=9401608


Hans


From jpero at sympatico.ca  Sun Oct 15 23:49:12 2000
From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: Commodore 720
In-Reply-To: <005701c03753$215e1100$dadf8490@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au>
Message-ID: <20001016084954.NYNZ625.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@pii350>

> From:          "Olminkhof" <jolminkh@nsw.bigpond.net.au>
> To:            <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
> Subject:       Commodore 720
> Date:          Mon, 16 Oct 2000 19:25:59 +1000
> Reply-to:      classiccmp@classiccmp.org

> I don't seem to be finding much these days, so please excuse me showing this
> off.
> No keyboard unfortunately.
> 
> http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=1166661&a=9401608
> 

Finally!  That kind of housing style that looks just right at home 
with 1990's stuff.  I don't get it that C= didn't apply that styling 
and "compactness" to their other machines and use color monitor and 
more modern guts.  C= in late times before got bagged by chapter 11 
was building very unstylish blocky machines and large as well, theirs 
looked alike to any clones machines at that time.

Looks like they took a C64 or doubled up C128 version stuffed 
into that thing?  When I was in high school, I see plus/4, c64's by 
brunch all in all kinds of problems and dud psu bricks in junk piles 
in electronics class room.  That's years ago.

Good catch on your "rare" find, *honestly* I haven't seen this kind 
ever.  Too bad, that machine didn't have keyboard to go with it.  I 
wonder that rarity can be that easy to find one.   sigh.

No offense on your "gloat" factor.  This one earned this.  :-)

Cheers,

Wizard

> 
> Hans
 

From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Mon Oct 16 04:52:04 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: NEC APC available
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SV4.3.96.001014030959.22136A-100000@lerami.lerctr.org>
References: <l03102803b60dbb28598d@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <l03102801b6107d05ef3b@[192.168.1.4]>

>>I rarely even bother to look anymore, better sources, less wasted
>> time.
>
>How about Salvation Army thrift stores?
>
>Occasionally, I go "junk sailing" (sic). There are a cluster of
>thrift stores around Canoga Park, quite a few along Main Street
>in Ventura, and still more in Santa Barbara. (Rich people's junk!
>Whoo-hoo).
>
>Another "junk store trail" is via the Inland Empire, hitting
>stores in Covina, Azusa, Pomona, La Verne, Fontana and Riverside.
>
>Sometimes the most "classic" thing in these stores is an old
>8-track compact stereo that doesn't work. But what you can
>find may surprise you. I found an old Commodore Pet (with the
>tiny keyboard) in one of these places (but they wanted way too
>much--like $60...)

I'm disgusted with the garden variety of thrift store these days. Prices
often stink compared to sources with pallets of computers, but worse 90% of
the time you walk into a Salvation Army type store and they really have
NOTHING of any use, or just bits. Too many yard sale/swap meet sellers shop
the thrifts for bargains to last.

People I know have taken the time (I haven't) to jump through all the hoops
and get "vendor" status at the big thrifts. They go in once or twice a week
to areas off limits to the public and buy all the computer etc. stuff in
bulk. The dirty secret of most charities is that "most" of the donated
items are sold in bulk to vendors. In Santa Ana a store buyer bids right
along side swapmeet people to get certain types of things to sell in the
Goodwill stores.



From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Mon Oct 16 04:58:44 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: NEC APC available
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SV4.3.96.001014054246.26988N-100000@lerami.lerctr.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010140153110.6829-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <l03102802b61080f4dc53@[192.168.1.4]>

>> > you. I found an old Commodore Pet (with the tiny keyboard) in one of
>> > these places (but they wanted way too much--like $60...)
>>
>> You could've probably talked them down a little but even at $60 that's a
>> steal for an original PET.
>
>Perhaps on E-bay or VCF or places where people know what it is. I sort of
>expect thrift store prices to be a bit lower, cause I don't expect thrift
>store management to really know what they have. Of course, they might
>have gotten more savvy over the years....

Even the most flea bitten off the track junk store has somebody that drops
by from time to time informing them of the huge price X or Y just brought
on eBay. More and more places are running a few items on eBay, or have a
person that does it for them. Most of the stuff though is just priced by
and for the ignorant.



From LFessen106 at aol.com  Mon Oct 16 06:49:00 2000
From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: Who collects (reads the mailing list...?) vintage computers in Quebec,  C...
Message-ID: <ae.bd59164.271c452c@aol.com>

In a message dated 10/14/00 10:56:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
claudew@sprint.ca writes:

> Hi
>  Sometimes I think I may be the only vintage computer collector in
>  Quebec, Canada.
>  I would like to hear if anybody else does any collecting around here
>  (Montreal area)
>  I have yet to find anybody to trade or talk collecting face-to-face
>  anywhere around here even if I have posted on several montreal
>  newsgroups that I am looking to buy/trade this kinda stuff...
>  When I mention I collect vintage computers, people look at me like I am
>  due for a trip in the "wacko wagon"...
>  Computers are tough to find here (not like california...) I have managed
>  to accumulate/fix/restore approx 50 micros (all working) from the
>  197x-198x early 1990's...lotta books, software and peripherals...
>  Those who feel sad for me can send me their Lisa's, TRS model IIIs and
>  Next boxes ;-> 
>  ...things I will probably never find around here and I refuse to
>  purchase them on ebay for a zillion bucks...
>  Thanks for reading
>  Claude

Hi Claude!
I may not be a Canadian Computer Collector, but I do collect computers, and I 
have even been to Montreal :-)  Seriously though, I know how you feel.  I 
live in PA, USA, and I know for a fact there are at least 2 other major 
collectors in the state, but have never been able to get either of them to 
respond to my emails.  The other problem I am having here is that I would 
like to collect "business type" UNIX stations, servers, etc, like Sun Sparc's 
and Decstations, etc, and the only thing I am able to find anywhere are 
PeeCees.  Ugh.  I also used to collect Commodore and Apple II computers - and 
still have a fairly decent selection.  You all can view my web page at 
http://members.aol.com/lfessen106
There is a description of my machines, some tips on collecting in general, 
and some other misc information.  Let me know what ya think.

-Linc Fessenden.

From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Mon Oct 16 09:14:44 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: 48v dc power
In-Reply-To: <002901c0371c$46a7ade0$9d789a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001016091444.3c2747d4@mailhost.intellistar.net>

  Allison,

At 10:49 PM 10/15/00 -0400, you wrote:

>
>
>>Out of curiosity, what's the furtherest distance anyone here has
>>noticed RFI from their systems (open or closed)?
>
>
>400ft, 10mhz clock for a S100 z80 system that was also distributed to
>other boards on the bus.  A modification to the termination of that line
>virtually made it disappear, the standard terminators didn't actually
>match the impedence of the line making it antenna.  Other hot one
>was the Altair you could hear the 2mhz anywhere in the house
>with the case on. 

  Was that being ratiated via the AC power lines or the keyboard cable or
what?

    Joe


 Usually if you can isolate the freq you can tame
>it.  one that get me every time is the 15700 hz horizontal retrace
>from TVs with most monitors running second, all plastic cased.
>
>Most stuff in a metal box with screws in tend to be quiet and
>commercial systems like DEC, SUN and HPs in full dress
>tend to be quiet if made to the specs in effect after 1980ish.
>PCs however are all over the map, some excellent and
>some very poor.
>
>Allison
>
>
>


From jeff.kaneko at juno.com  Mon Oct 16 08:19:28 2000
From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: Paging: Jason McBrien
Message-ID: <20001016.083227.-296113.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com>


Guys:

Sorry for the intrusion, but I haven't received
responses to my e-mails; so Jason, if you're 
reading please e-mail me ASAP at:

jeff.kaneko@juno.com

Thanks!

We now return you to our regularly scheduled programme . . .
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Mon Oct 16 08:47:58 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: Red Erasors, contacts, and gold revisited
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB1FF@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>


> Sorry to bring this one back up, but I was cruising the Classiccmp
> archives and read the thread.
> 
> I liked the idea of dipping the erasor in alcohol.  Nice bearing fluid and
> would help reduce abrasion as well as acting as a solvent and carrier for
> gunk.
> 
> Not all contacts are gilt which is one application for abrasives.  The
> hard disk MIO for my Atari 8-bit is an example. It's traces are unfinished
> tin-colored things and they oxidize rapidly.
> 
> Some of you folks had solutions to check the oxidation such as silicone
> grease.  Could you amplify on this and especially what type of grease and
> where to find it.

Another possibility (one I haven't tried with computer gear) would be a
substance called Stabilant 22... it's made in Canada, can't recall the
name of the firm. It's a liquid described as a contact enhancing fluid,
and operates as both an insulator, and as a conductor through what they
call "quantum tunnelling".

I use it on automotive connectors, and no treated connector has yet
shown signs of oxidation.

Anyone tried this snake oil^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hamazing substance?

regards,
-doug q

From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu  Mon Oct 16 09:07:33 2000
From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: Commodore 720
In-Reply-To: <20001016084954.NYNZ625.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@pii350> from "jpero@sympatico.ca" at "Oct 16, 0 04:49:12 am"
Message-ID: <200010161407.HAA21040@stockholm.ptloma.edu>

> Finally!  That kind of housing style that looks just right at home 
> with 1990's stuff.  I don't get it that C= didn't apply that styling 
> and "compactness" to their other machines and use color monitor and 
> more modern guts.  C= in late times before got bagged by chapter 11 
> was building very unstylish blocky machines and large as well, theirs 
> looked alike to any clones machines at that time.
> 
> Looks like they took a C64 or doubled up C128 version stuffed 
> into that thing?  When I was in high school, I see plus/4, c64's by 
> brunch all in all kinds of problems and dud psu bricks in junk piles 
> in electronics class room.  That's years ago.

Not even close :-) This was one of the CBM-IIs and they are quite uncommon
in the US.

http://www.retrobits.com/ckb/secret/b128.html

-- 
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
 Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- Famous, adj.: Conspicuously miserable.  -- Ambrose Bierce ------------------

From frederik at freddym.org  Mon Oct 16 08:35:04 2000
From: frederik at freddym.org (Frederik Meerwaldt)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: Alphastation 255 question..
In-Reply-To: <39E5F024.34521389@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0010161534110.3498-100000@server.wes.mee.com>

> Hi All!

Hi!

> Quick question. Does the Digital Alphastation 255 take a regular ( as in
> PC type ) floppy disk drive? Is there a special DEC FD drive I need to
> get? I have a part number for the FD from DEC but the part description
> doesn't tell me anything and the purchase price for the item is about
> what you would expect for a PC type floppy drive buying direct from a
> manufacturer.

Every PC-Floppy drive should work. It's a normal FD Controller. Normally
there are DEC Floppy drives in it, but others should work as well.

-- 
Best Regards,
	Freddy

=====================================================================
Frederik Meerwaldt  ICQ: 83045387  Homepage: http://www.freddym.org
 Bavaria/Germany              OpenVMS and Unix Howtos and much more
   FREEBSD, NETBSD, OPENBSD, TRU64, OPENVMS, ULTRIX, BEOS, LINUX



From b.layer at vikingelectronics.com  Mon Oct 16 09:26:34 2000
From: b.layer at vikingelectronics.com (Bill Layer)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: Red Erasors, contacts, and gold revisited
In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB1FF@tegntserver.tegjeff
 .com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001016091832.00cce5e0@192.168.210.18>


>Anyone tried this snake oil^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hamazing substance?

Quantum tunnelling eh? No comment :)

FWIW, I am still a big fan of LPS-1, I've used it for years to clean & 
restore some of the most inconsolable antique potentiometers & switches. I 
would think that a greaseless lubricant of that type would be very happy on 
computer connectors..

As for erasers, I'm assuming that red pencil erasers are out due to their 
slight abrasive characteristics? what about the 'kneaded' erasers that 
chalk / conti artists use? (I'm not talking about Artgum )

Please let me know if this is bad thinking...

Bill

PS Thanks to everyone for posting the wealth of MDS background - I now feel 
like it was worth my time to drag this behemoth home. Hey, anything with a 
bank of switches & lights has got to be OK, right?



From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com  Mon Oct 16 10:50:35 2000
From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: Paging Anthony Eros
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001016084934.01e78a70@208.226.86.10>

Has anyone heard from Tony recently? I'm beginning to get concerned that 
perhaps something has happened to him.

--Chuck


From harrison at timharrison.com  Mon Oct 16 10:56:28 2000
From: harrison at timharrison.com (Tim Harrison)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: Red Erasors, contacts, and gold revisited
References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB1FF@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>
Message-ID: <39EB252C.D925EE04@timharrison.com>

Douglas Quebbeman wrote:

> Another possibility (one I haven't tried with computer gear) would be a
> substance called Stabilant 22... it's made in Canada, can't recall the
> name of the firm. It's a liquid described as a contact enhancing fluid,
> and operates as both an insulator, and as a conductor through what they
> call "quantum tunnelling".

A friend of mine uses it in his garage, and says it works quite well. 
However, I'm afraid one of these days he's going to use too much and end
up in the delta quadrant. :)

-- 


Tim Harrison
Network Engineer
harrison@timharrison.com
http://www.networklevel.com/

From ahm at spies.com  Mon Oct 16 11:13:08 2000
From: ahm at spies.com (Andreas Meyer)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: NEC APC available
In-Reply-To: <l03102802b61080f4dc53@[192.168.1.4]>; from Mike Ford on Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:58:44AM -0800
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010140153110.6829-100000@siconic.com> <Pine.SV4.3.96.001014054246.26988N-100000@lerami.lerctr.org> <l03102802b61080f4dc53@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <20001016121308.D31412@spies.com>

Mike Ford writes:
> Even the most flea bitten off the track junk store has somebody that drops
> by from time to time informing them of the huge price X or Y just brought
> on eBay. More and more places are running a few items on eBay, or have a
> person that does it for them.

Of course, GoodWill Industries has gone the extra step and created their
own version of ebay.   http://shopgoodwill.com/
No bargains there either.

Andy

From mranalog at home.com  Mon Oct 16 11:34:09 2000
From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: early non-US personal computers
Message-ID: <39EB2E01.D4A49A18@home.com>


Doug Salot <doug@blinkenlights.com> said:
> Hey unamericans, any candidates for personal computers made outside of the
> US before 1976 (other than Micral)?
> 
> Define "personal computer" any way you like to as long as you define it
> this way: digital, (semi)automatic, programmable, accessible/available,
> small, inexpensive, and simpler than an F-14 fighter jet :-)  Turing
> completeness helps, but I'm flexible.

 We this WOULD have have been a good opourtunity to talk about the 1971
English computer I received in the mail last Wednesday from the NE coast
of England.
 I WOULD have said that it is a "Educational Analogue Computer Type
C180"
made by Physical & Electronic Laboratories Ltd. It has 18 amplifiers, 16
of which can be used as integrators. It my first general purpose analog 
to use intergrated circuit amplifiers. The DIP 741 amplifiers are are in
beautiful all gold packages with date codes of 7105. And I have a
picture
at: http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog/c180.jpg

 But, I'll save this for later.

 The person I bought this computer from does have some newer digital
computers for sale. He has 18 Memotech MTX512s and other Memotech
stuff that he is hoping to sell as one lot. He also has Atari STs,
Amstrads, Amigas, Atari Lynxs, games for the Lynxs and VIC20.
See the whole list at: 
http://www.theoldecomputerosityshop.freeserve.co.uk/Computers/Computers.htm
The Olde Computerosity Shoppe, Harlepool
contact: "john.masterman" <john.masterman@ntlworld.com>
 --Doug
=========================================
Doug Coward                
Press Start Inc.          
Sunnyvale,CA    
=========================================

From mranalog at home.com  Mon Oct 16 11:45:59 2000
From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: early non-US personal computers
References: <39EB2E01.D4A49A18@home.com>
Message-ID: <39EB30C7.5534A23E@home.com>



Doug Coward wrote:
>  We this WOULD have have been a good opourtunity ......

 We this = This
 opourtunity = opportunity

> to use intergrated ....

 intergrated = integrated

(The trouble I go through to confuse bulk-emailers)
 --Doug
=========================================
Doug Coward                
Press Start Inc.          
Sunnyvale,CA    
=========================================

From lemay at cs.umn.edu  Mon Oct 16 12:04:54 2000
From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: PDP-8 question...
In-Reply-To: <200010142234.RAA26734@caesar.cs.umn.edu> from Lawrence LeMay at
 "Oct 14, 2000 05:34:54 pm"
Message-ID: <200010161704.MAA29688@caesar.cs.umn.edu>

> > 
> > >Well, mine is set for fields 4-7, but I dont have any docs. And since
> > >its working i'm hesitant to tear it apart.
> > 
> > Tear it apart?  This one is only two boards at the top one is the only 
> > one with significant logic and drivers.  the other is the diode matrix 
> > and core mat.  There is a DIP socket in the middle (mine has 
> > nothing in it) and a set of three posts one dip above it.  If you 
> > could tell me what you have there it would help.
> 

The 16 pin DIP socket has a "black box" plugged into it. Hmm, popping
that box open reveals the expected jumpers.

Looking down at the jumpers, the upper left corner is pin 1, upper right
is pin 16, I have 4 wires installed:

 pin 5 - pin 14
 pin 6 - pin 13
 pin 7 - pin 12
 pin 8 - pin 11

My board is set to cover fields 4 - 7. 

My guess would be that the 3 EMA bits are decoded into 8 lines, and are
present on pins 1 - 8, corresponding to DEC field terminology 0 - 7, 
which makes obvious sense since pins 1 - 8 are on one side of the 
DIP jumper, and that pins 11 - 14 are the individual 4Kx12 field
select jumpers. 

-Lawrence LeMay

From mtapley at swri.edu  Mon Oct 16 12:01:24 2000
From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: NeXT MP3 player (was: Re: Dauphin DTR-1 running Ersatz-11)
Message-ID: <l0310280ab610e23e0b96@[129.162.151.33]>

Tim wrote:

>Now, if only my NeXT could have handled the MP3s.  That would have been
>much cooler.

http://www.this.net/~frank/download.html

and look at NXMP3Play. Frank Siegert, the author, claims only to be able to
do 22 kHz on 25 MHz machines. I haven't used it, but it looks pretty cool.
							- Mark



From mac at Wireless.Com  Mon Oct 16 12:44:28 2000
From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: VMS
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.4.21.0010161043510.12777-100000@NameServer.Culver.Net>

http://www.nwfusion.com/news/2000/1010newvms.html

-Mike C


From elvey at hal.com  Mon Oct 16 13:11:08 2000
From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: Red Erasors, contacts, and gold revisited
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001016091832.00cce5e0@192.168.210.18>
Message-ID: <200010161811.LAA27871@civic.hal.com>

"Bill Layer" <b.layer@vikingelectronics.com> wrote:
> 
> >Anyone tried this snake oil^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hamazing substance?
> 
> Quantum tunnelling eh? No comment :)

 What a bunch of sales hype!

> 
> FWIW, I am still a big fan of LPS-1, I've used it for years to clean & 
> restore some of the most inconsolable antique potentiometers & switches. I 
> would think that a greaseless lubricant of that type would be very happy on 
> computer connectors..

 This is mainly a cleaner and doesn't do much for long term
contact.

> 
> As for erasers, I'm assuming that red pencil erasers are out due to their 
> slight abrasive characteristics? what about the 'kneaded' erasers that 
> chalk / conti artists use? (I'm not talking about Artgum )
> 
> Please let me know if this is bad thinking...

 I really don't recommend any use of erasers. They remove
the plating and often leave corrosive material behind.
 As for the grease. The best stuff is made by Dow Corning.
It is called DC#4. Most electrical shops have it ( lights,
wire and conduit types ). McMaster Carr carries is as well.
When I ran out of my original tube, years ago, I started
using some stuff that I bought at an automotive shop. It
is called Sil-Glyde. It has a amber color instead of clear
like Dow Corning's but seems to work as well.
 As for normal contact cleaners, I have an old TV that
the silver had warn off the contacts in the turrets ( I said
it was old ). When I used the clear, it would work for about
a month and then got flakey again. I put some of the grease
on the contacts ( mostly bare brass ) and the set is still
working today ( done years ago ).
 Before putting it onto connectors, it is a good idea to
remove any soluble materials with alcohol. As far as I
know, the reason it works is because, unlike petrolium
greases, it has a vary low film strength ( poor as lubricant ).
This in combination with removing air from the surface
improves the overall contact.
 I'm sure the Canadian product uses some kind of silicone
oil. I have friend with a can of silicone oil ( like is
used in car waxes ). I'll have to try it to see if it
has similar contact improvements as the grease does.
Dwight


From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com  Mon Oct 16 11:15:26 2000
From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: VMS
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.4.21.0010161043510.12777-100000@NameServer.Culver
 .Net>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001016111500.01950bd0@208.226.86.10>

Yeah, but they don't mention a VAX version :-(
--Chuck

At 10:44 AM 10/16/2000 -0700, you wrote:
>http://www.nwfusion.com/news/2000/1010newvms.html
>
>-Mike C


From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Mon Oct 16 13:40:15 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: Red Erasors, contacts, and gold revisited
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB204@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>


>  I'm sure the Canadian product uses some kind of silicone
> oil. I have friend with a can of silicone oil ( like is
> used in car waxes ). I'll have to try it to see if it
> has similar contact improvements as the grease does.

You can buy Stabilant 22 in dilute, ready-to-use form,
or in large quantities as a concentrate. They describe
it as a polymer, specifically:

Polyoxypropylene-Polyoxyethylene Block Polymer of the Polyglycol family

Any of you chemists know if this happens to be the same as/
related to silicone?

Link to manufacturer:

	http://www.stabilant.com/techt01h.htm

regards,
-dq

From donm at cts.com  Mon Oct 16 13:44:11 2000
From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: Red Erasors, contacts, and gold revisited
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001016091832.00cce5e0@192.168.210.18>
Message-ID: <Pine.SCO.4.20.0010161143110.29992-100000@crash.cts.com>



On Mon, 16 Oct 2000, Bill Layer wrote:

> 
> >Anyone tried this snake oil^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hamazing substance?
> 
> Quantum tunnelling eh? No comment :)
> 
> FWIW, I am still a big fan of LPS-1, I've used it for years to clean & 
> restore some of the most inconsolable antique potentiometers & switches. I 
> would think that a greaseless lubricant of that type would be very happy on 
> computer connectors..
> 
> As for erasers, I'm assuming that red pencil erasers are out due to their 
> slight abrasive characteristics? what about the 'kneaded' erasers that 
> chalk / conti artists use? (I'm not talking about Artgum )

I think that "Pink Pearl" erasers are the standard for card-edge contact
cleaning.
						 - don
 
> Please let me know if this is bad thinking...
> 
> Bill
> 
> PS Thanks to everyone for posting the wealth of MDS background - I now feel 
> like it was worth my time to drag this behemoth home. Hey, anything with a 
> bank of switches & lights has got to be OK, right?
> 
> 
> 


From elvey at hal.com  Mon Oct 16 13:48:51 2000
From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: Red Erasors, contacts, and gold revisited
In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB204@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>
Message-ID: <200010161848.LAA27890@civic.hal.com>

Douglas Quebbeman <dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com> wrote:
> 
> >  I'm sure the Canadian product uses some kind of silicone
> > oil. I have friend with a can of silicone oil ( like is
> > used in car waxes ). I'll have to try it to see if it
> > has similar contact improvements as the grease does.
> 
> You can buy Stabilant 22 in dilute, ready-to-use form,
> or in large quantities as a concentrate. They describe
> it as a polymer, specifically:
> 
> Polyoxypropylene-Polyoxyethylene Block Polymer of the Polyglycol family
> 
> Any of you chemists know if this happens to be the same as/
> related to silicone?
> 

Hi Doug
 It sure doesn't sound like it. It may work in similar ways.
Dwight


From elvey at hal.com  Mon Oct 16 14:09:19 2000
From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: Red Erasors, contacts, and gold revisited
In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB204@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>
Message-ID: <200010161909.MAA27909@civic.hal.com>

Douglas Quebbeman <dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com> wrote:
> 
> >  I'm sure the Canadian product uses some kind of silicone
> > oil. I have friend with a can of silicone oil ( like is
> > used in car waxes ). I'll have to try it to see if it
> > has similar contact improvements as the grease does.
> 
> You can buy Stabilant 22 in dilute, ready-to-use form,
> or in large quantities as a concentrate. They describe
> it as a polymer, specifically:
> 
> Polyoxypropylene-Polyoxyethylene Block Polymer of the Polyglycol family
> 
> Any of you chemists know if this happens to be the same as/
> related to silicone?
> 
> Link to manufacturer:
> 
> 	http://www.stabilant.com/techt01h.htm
> 
> regards,
> -dq

Hi
 I also find it interesting to see the following app note:

 http://www.stabilant.com/appnt32h.htm

 I have never seen the problem they are talking about and
I have a sea going sail boat. According to their note,
this should be the worst condition. Makes me wonder
what I might be doing that is different than what
they are doing?
Dwight


From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 16 14:49:24 2000
From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: IDE on Qbus (was Re: Microvax II)
Message-ID: <20001016194924.88214.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com>


--- ajp166 <ajp166@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
> IDE is fairly stupid and easy to interface as PIO, DMA would not be that
> bad for vax or PDP11 but you would pay for it by needing drivers as
> there are none.
.
.
.
> RT-11 and the overlay TSX-11 are easy compared to something like VMS.

I've written VMS drivers from scratch (for the VAXBI COMBOARD) and I've
dug deep into someone else's code for an AmigaDOS IDE driver (PIO via
ISA interface and GG2 Bus+ ISA bus adapter).  If it were possible to
make an inexpensive IDE adapter for Qbus, I'd be more than happy to
tackle a driver.  I've got a couple of uVAX-IIs, KDF11 CPUs, etc., so
the rest of the system is no problem.

Has anyone designed a quick-n-dirty Qbus IDE adapter?  If one is willing
to let the VAX processor do the work, it could be as simple as mapping
the I/O registers of the IDE drive into some I/O addresses.  Not much
more than a few Qbus drivers and an address comparator, a la older ISA
IDE cards.  It would probably heavily tax most CPUs, though.


-ethan


=====
Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to
vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com

The original webpage address is still going away.  The 
permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/

See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf!  It's FREE.
http://im.yahoo.com/

From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 16 15:05:21 2000
From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: Amiga stuff (was Re: NEC APC available)
Message-ID: <20001016200521.20539.qmail@web9505.mail.yahoo.com>


--- John Foust <jfoust@threedee.com> wrote:
> At 09:10 PM 10/12/00 -0700, Chuck McManis wrote:
> >I recently gave away all my Amiga stuff. And it wasn't because it wasn't
> good stuff.
> 
> Argh!  I trust it found a good home.  I haven't morphed far enough to 
> toss my Amiga schtuff, which includes the truly rare and obscure.  
> 
> I get the impression that today's Amigoids aren't interested in the
> historical details, but more the latest-greatest that keeps their machines 
> functional and alive.

Speaking of keeping Amigas alive, if anyone is looking to use semi-modern
hardware with an Amiga, (*begin blatant commercial plug*) I still stock the
GG2 Bus+ ISA adapter card, new, with factory warranty.  They aren't exactly
flying off the shelves these days.

Contact me off list if you want details.

-ethan


=====
Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to
vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com

The original webpage address is still going away.  The 
permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/

See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf!  It's FREE.
http://im.yahoo.com/

From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Mon Oct 16 15:30:42 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:58 2005
Subject: Red Erasors, contacts, and gold revisited
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB208@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>

> Hi
>  I also find it interesting to see the following app note:
> 
>  http://www.stabilant.com/appnt32h.htm
> 
>  I have never seen the problem they are talking about and
> I have a sea going sail boat. According to their note,
> this should be the worst condition. Makes me wonder
> what I might be doing that is different than what
> they are doing?

Are you cleaning periodically with the silicone? Perhaps
you're cleaning it often enough to prevent the silicate
from forming...

-dq

From healyzh at aracnet.com  Mon Oct 16 15:42:39 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: VMS with no documentation
In-Reply-To: <005001c036da$48868600$9d789a8d@ajp166> from "ajp166" at Oct 15, 2000 02:52:11 PM
Message-ID: <200010162042.NAA20857@shell1.aracnet.com>

> If you think EDT is slick... try TPU or LSE after that Word will be
> intolerable.
> 
> Allison

Shouldn't that be TPU combined with TeX? :^)  With that combo not only will
Word be intolerable, but it will look like cr**!

			Zane


From phil at ultimate.com  Mon Oct 16 15:48:35 2000
From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: IDE on Qbus (was Re: Microvax II)
Message-ID: <200010162048.QAA25520@ultimate.com>

> Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 12:49:24 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Ethan Dicks <ethan_dicks@yahoo.com>
> ....
> Has anyone designed a quick-n-dirty Qbus IDE adapter?

see ftp://digital.dp.ua/DEC/ata/

    Files there;
    README.txt
    waq.zip   - ATA/Q-bus adapter hardware description
    wau.zip   - ATA/UNIBUS adapter hardware description
    wart.zip  - Software for ATA HDD OS support (RT-11)
    warsx.zip - Software for ATA HDD OS support (RSX-11M and RSX-11M-PLUS)
    wavms.zip - Software for ATA HDD OS support (VAX/VMS)

'twould be great if someone could spin some blank boards, (and a bulk
order for parts)!!

My Qbus wish list;

    ATA disk interface
    BOOT EPROM or Flash
    Crystal CS8900 Ethernet
    512KW SRAM
    SuperIO (ie; WinBond)
    or
    NS16550A (or eqiv high-speed, deep FIFO) UART for networking/kermit
    Floppy ctrlr (capable of driving Shugart 8", 5.25" 3")

    ISA Bridge

From healyzh at aracnet.com  Mon Oct 16 16:01:48 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: Fixing a TK86
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001015210234.00a38eb0@208.226.86.10> from "Chuck McManis" at Oct 15, 2000 09:27:41 PM
Message-ID: <200010162101.OAA22310@shell1.aracnet.com>

Chuck McManis wrote:
> I seem to be in possesion of a "broke" TF86 drive. As far as I can tell the 
> only thing "wrong" with it is that it seems to have unhooked its "tongue" 
> (the take up leader) and I've fixed that. Now I was wondering if there were 

I'm guessing that the only thing wrong with the drive was the sucked in
leader.  This is a *common* problem with DLT drives (well, it is for us
around here, but considering how many we have).  

> any tests I could run on it before I tried putting it into a chassis to see 
> what it does :-). It has a separate "bridge board" that converts its HD50 
> connector to DSSI.

What happens when you apply power?  There really aren't any tests you can
run outside a machine that I'm aware of, plus I'm only familiar with DLT4000
and DLT7000 drive (since you can't really count TK50, TZ30, and TK70
drives).

> Some things I'm trying to ascertain:
> 	1) Can I convert it to a TZ86 using the bridgeboard from a TK85? (they at 
> least share connector similarity.

Maybe.  The TK85 bridgeboard should convert a TF85 into a TZ85 (are the SCSI
drives actually called TZ, or TK?).  On the DLT4000/7000 drives I believe
it's just the board on the back that defines if they're SCSI-Diff or
SCSI-SE.

> 	2) Is there any way to test it without hooking it to a  DSSI bus?

Just go ahead and hook it up.

			Zane

From stewart_kevin at hotmail.com  Mon Oct 16 16:20:48 2000
From: stewart_kevin at hotmail.com (Kevin Stewart)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: NEC APC available
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010122204310.4935-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <OE43rXWWKCSxQaWutzE00001cc3@hotmail.com>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Sellam Ismail" <foo@siconic.com>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2000 1:07 AM
Subject: Re: NEC APC available


> ACK!
>
> As much as I hate having seemingly useless crap like this, I still refuse
> to throw it out.  It's useful to SOMEONE.

Ack is right. I work at a non-profit organization called the Full Circle
Group (we have a web site somewhere, I just forget the URL). If anybody ever
needs a place to dump Pentium class (or higher, although we sometimes take
486s) or PowerPC+ machines or parts, I can get an address. If it's near the
greater-Cincinnati area, I or someone else can pick it up. We reformat the
machines, install an operating system (Windows with MS Works or Linux with
StarOffice), give it a monitor, clean it up, give it a printer if necessary
and send it on its way. In a 3-hour time period we can perform installations
on 180 machines with a crew of 5-10 people (using Norton Ghost Multicast
Server -- great little (well, not so little) program.

> Sellam

Kevin

From elvey at hal.com  Mon Oct 16 16:39:30 2000
From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: Red Erasors, contacts, and gold revisited
In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB208@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>
Message-ID: <200010162139.OAA28013@civic.hal.com>

Douglas Quebbeman <dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com> wrote:
> > Hi
> >  I also find it interesting to see the following app note:
> > 
> >  http://www.stabilant.com/appnt32h.htm
> > 
> >  I have never seen the problem they are talking about and
> > I have a sea going sail boat. According to their note,
> > this should be the worst condition. Makes me wonder
> > what I might be doing that is different than what
> > they are doing?
> 
> Are you cleaning periodically with the silicone? Perhaps
> you're cleaning it often enough to prevent the silicate
> from forming...
> 
> -dq

Hi Doug
 I don't clean. I get the feeling they may be talking
about silicone glue and not the grease. The oil is about
as non-corrosive as anything that I've seen.
 On my boat, I use it on light sockets and any connections
I make. The only failures I've had are the original connections
made by the manufacture and previous owner. You do want to
apply it to a clean surface. Any salt covered over will still
be salt. Anyway, it make me wonder.
Dwight


From classics at teleport.com  Mon Oct 16 16:28:23 2000
From: classics at teleport.com (John Sauer)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: Fixing a TK86
In-Reply-To: <200010162101.OAA22310@shell1.aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <001901c037b8$0365fea0$0da00c18@bvrtn1.or.home.com>

sorry wrong mail box, try again!

John Sauer
AAPD.NET
john@aapd.net
http://www.aapd.net
503.356.1693 Toll Free 877.955.6900

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org
[mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of healyzh@aracnet.com
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2000 2:02 PM
To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Fixing a TK86


Chuck McManis wrote:
> I seem to be in possesion of a "broke" TF86 drive. As far as I can tell
the
> only thing "wrong" with it is that it seems to have unhooked its "tongue"
> (the take up leader) and I've fixed that. Now I was wondering if there
were

I'm guessing that the only thing wrong with the drive was the sucked in
leader.  This is a *common* problem with DLT drives (well, it is for us
around here, but considering how many we have).

> any tests I could run on it before I tried putting it into a chassis to
see
> what it does :-). It has a separate "bridge board" that converts its HD50
> connector to DSSI.

What happens when you apply power?  There really aren't any tests you can
run outside a machine that I'm aware of, plus I'm only familiar with DLT4000
and DLT7000 drive (since you can't really count TK50, TZ30, and TK70
drives).

> Some things I'm trying to ascertain:
> 	1) Can I convert it to a TZ86 using the bridgeboard from a TK85? (they at
> least share connector similarity.

Maybe.  The TK85 bridgeboard should convert a TF85 into a TZ85 (are the SCSI
drives actually called TZ, or TK?).  On the DLT4000/7000 drives I believe
it's just the board on the back that defines if they're SCSI-Diff or
SCSI-SE.

> 	2) Is there any way to test it without hooking it to a  DSSI bus?

Just go ahead and hook it up.

			Zane


From jfoust at threedee.com  Mon Oct 16 16:47:57 2000
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: Fwd: IBM PC Needs New Home
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001016164741.02ecaee0@pc>


>X-POP3-Rcpt: jfoust@threedee
>From: "Bob and Jennifer Usher" <jlazyb@fone.net>
>To: <jfoust@threedee.com>
>Subject: IBM PC Needs New Home
>Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 14:54:48 -0600
>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1
>
>Dear John,
>    I was pleased to find you on the Web under "computer rescue."  We have an IBM original PC that needs a new home.  Below is a letter that my husband (retired IBM) sent to a local museum which declined to accept the donation.  Would you be interested or know of anyone else who might be?
>
>Dear Mr. Westley:
>
>Thank you very much for taking the time to speak with me by phone recently regarding the IBM personal computer that I would like to donate to your museum. Before you meet with your Acquisitions Committee, I thought it might be helpful for you to have a thorough list of the items I propose to include in the donation.
>
>As I told you over the phone, the system unit (processor), the monitor, the keyboard, and the dot matrix printer are all in their original packing cartons and will be delivered to you this way. In addition, we have all of the original documentation that was provided with the machine still in original packaging as well and floppy disks containing software. In going through our paperwork, we discovered that we also have, and would be happy to provide to you for historical purposes, the original invoice for the purchase, IBM product announcement brochures, a complete list of IBM personal computer products and retail outlets (as of 1981), details of the purchase plan, and some print-outs of BASIC programs that ran on the computer.
>
>To recap the history of the computer: When IBM first announced the release of personal computers early in 1981, it was clear that IBM employees would want to be among the first to purchase them. The company had a long history of employee purchase plans for its office equipment, so a program was developed for employee purchase of the new personal computers, too. Because it was anticipated that a large number of employees would want to buy PCs immediately, a lottery system was developed. All IBM employees throughout the country who wanted to be in the first group of purchasers turned in their orders in October of 1981. All orders received were then scheduled for delivery based on the outcome of the lottery. My shipment was scheduled for October of 1982, about in the middle of all of the employee deliveries for that first round of purchases. I was living in Chicago at the time I placed the order, but was transferred to Tampa effective in October of 1982, so we stopped at Compute!
r La
nd to pick up the computer on moving day as we were driving out of town. The next year I was transferred to Boulder and eventually retired to my present home in Mancos where the computer is now.
>
>I hope this information is helpful to your committee. If you or they have any further questions, please feel free to call me at 970-533-9060.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Bob Usher
>
>    By the way, John, who are you?  Do you "collect" computers for yourself or an employer?  How would you put this one to "use"?
>
>    Hope to hear from you soon. 
>
>Sincerely,  Jennifer Usher


From jfoust at threedee.com  Mon Oct 16 17:01:51 2000
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: NEC APC available
In-Reply-To: <OE43rXWWKCSxQaWutzE00001cc3@hotmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010122204310.4935-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001016170120.029bec70@pc>

At 05:20 PM 10/16/00 -0400, Kevin Stewart wrote:
>We reformat the
>machines, install an operating system (Windows with MS Works or Linux with
>StarOffice), give it a monitor, clean it up, give it a printer if necessary
>and send it on its way. In a 3-hour time period we can perform installations
>on 180 machines with a crew of 5-10 people (using Norton Ghost Multicast
>Server -- great little (well, not so little) program.

And who pays for all those Windows licenses?

- John


From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com  Mon Oct 16 17:23:51 2000
From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: Fleamarkets (was Re: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0))
In-Reply-To: <001301c0345f$785a86b0$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>
Message-ID: <000601c037bf$c3afbf50$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>


FWIW there was what must've been a 30" disk platter
     at the MIT Flea this weekend, mounted on its 
     center hub.  Never saw a disk larger than 14"
     before.  Didn't get the manufacturer but the
     price was $40.00 and the seller was Frank Fink.

John A.


From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com  Mon Oct 16 15:34:29 2000
From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: Fleamarkets (was Re: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0))
In-Reply-To: <000601c037bf$c3afbf50$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>
References: <001301c0345f$785a86b0$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001016153308.02839bd8@208.226.86.10>

Fascinating, if it came from MIT is was probably part of the MIT 
"Whirlwind" making it an extremely valuable artifact. Too bad you didn't 
pick it up, I'm guessing it would fetch over $10K at auction.
--Chuck

At 06:23 PM 10/16/2000 -0400, you wrote:

>FWIW there was what must've been a 30" disk platter
>      at the MIT Flea this weekend, mounted on its
>      center hub.  Never saw a disk larger than 14"
>      before.  Didn't get the manufacturer but the
>      price was $40.00 and the seller was Frank Fink.
>
>John A.


From gwynp at artware.qc.ca  Mon Oct 16 17:44:18 2000
From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: mac serial pinouts
In-Reply-To: <l03102802b6028963c28c@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <XFMail.20001016184418.gwynp@artware.qc.ca>


On 05-Oct-2000 Mike Ford wrote:
>>Can anyone tell me which pins (and I don't know the numbering scheme, so
>>please include that) are transmit, receive, and gnd on a Mac 8-pin
>>mini-din port?
> 
> This apparently from the Zterm 0.9 manual

*snip*

I'm looking for the reverse of this.  I have a Worldport with a mini-din
plug that I want to connect to a friend's wintel portable.  I managed to
get a 3 wire protocol (RX, TX, GND) going, so I can "AT" the modem and get
"OK" back.  But if I dial an ISP, I'll get "CONNECT 12345" (don't recall
the speed) and then nothing.  I suspect it's waiting for some handshaking
from the computer but I haven't had the time/skill to investigate further.

I don't have (and haven't found) proper documenation for the modem.  Maybe
there exists an ATSx=y code or extended command would deactivate the
handshaking while connected.

Anyone have a clue?

-Philip

From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com  Mon Oct 16 17:55:02 2000
From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: Fleamarkets (was Re: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0))
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001016153308.02839bd8@208.226.86.10>
Message-ID: <000701c037c4$1e699ed0$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>


> Fascinating, ..."Whirlwind" ... $10K at auction.

Ease up.  It's a Fleamarket of independants.
They can get whatever MIT surplusses if they're
in the area to start with.  Many are the gypsy type.

(But where Do 30" platters come from...???)

John A.

From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com  Mon Oct 16 16:56:11 2000
From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: Interesting tidbits Re: Fixing a TK86
In-Reply-To: <200010162101.OAA22310@shell1.aracnet.com>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001015210234.00a38eb0@208.226.86.10>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001016164526.01950fc0@208.226.86.10>

At 02:01 PM 10/16/2000 -0700, Zane wrote:
>Just go ahead and hook it up.

Which I did and it seems to work fine. After init'ing a tape in it the "use 
cleaning tape" light came on but that is easily dealt with. I did a 
standalone backup to the tape and booted from it so it seems to work both 
for reading and writing.

So here are a couple of interesting tidbits:
         1) The TK85 and TK86 tape drive mechanisms share the same
            connection (a 50 pin high density honda connector)
         2) The "bridge board" (DEC Part #5419089-21) is the same
            for both drives. (this board has a DSSI interface on it)
         3) I'm guessing that the bridge board for the TZ85 is the
            same as the TZ86 so I'm pretty much in high density heavan.

Now to find an inexpensive source of a dozen or so CompacTape III's.

--Chuck


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Mon Oct 16 19:09:49 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: Interesting tidbits Re: Fixing a TK86
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001016164526.01950fc0@208.226.86.10> from "Chuck McManis" at Oct 16, 2000 04:56:11 PM
Message-ID: <200010170009.RAA05761@shell1.aracnet.com>

> Which I did and it seems to work fine. After init'ing a tape in it the "use 
> cleaning tape" light came on but that is easily dealt with. I did a 
> standalone backup to the tape and booted from it so it seems to work both 
> for reading and writing.

Cool!

> So here are a couple of interesting tidbits:
>          1) The TK85 and TK86 tape drive mechanisms share the same
>             connection (a 50 pin high density honda connector)
>          2) The "bridge board" (DEC Part #5419089-21) is the same
>             for both drives. (this board has a DSSI interface on it)
>          3) I'm guessing that the bridge board for the TZ85 is the
>             same as the TZ86 so I'm pretty much in high density heavan.

I'd say try it, but this makes me really paranoid.  I don't think I'd try it
without confirmation it will work.  I think I'll recommend something I've
recommended to you before.  Ask about this on comp.os.vms and comp.sys.dec!

> Now to find an inexpensive source of a dozen or so CompacTape III's.
> 
> --Chuck

Well, two of the top places I'd check would be Fry's and
http://www.pcmall.com I'd probably also check http://www.necx.com

			Zane


From whdawson at mlynk.com  Mon Oct 16 19:16:07 2000
From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: Fleamarkets (was Re: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0))
In-Reply-To: <000701c037c4$1e699ed0$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>
Message-ID: <000001c037cf$71bf6320$ab9e72d1@cobweb.net>

-> > Fascinating, ..."Whirlwind" ... $10K at auction.
->
-> Ease up.  It's a Fleamarket of independants.
-> They can get whatever MIT surplusses if they're
-> in the area to start with.  Many are the gypsy type.
->
-> (But where Do 30" platters come from...???)

I remember working on a large drive that used 30" platters around 1975,
and it was vintage then. IIRC, it had an external air compressor and was
about 6 feet long by 4 feet wide and 6 feet high.  It had clear doors
with windows on both of the long sides where you could see the platters
spinning and the heads moving. Don't remember much else.

Bill


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Mon Oct 16 19:20:42 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: IDE on Qbus (was Re: Microvax II)
Message-ID: <004c01c037d0$959f3c60$8d769a8d@ajp166>

From: Ethan Dicks <ethan_dicks@yahoo.com>
>Has anyone designed a quick-n-dirty Qbus IDE adapter?  If one is willing
>to let the VAX processor do the work, it could be as simple as mapping
>the I/O registers of the IDE drive into some I/O addresses.  Not much
>more than a few Qbus drivers and an address comparator, a la older ISA
>IDE cards.  It would probably heavily tax most CPUs, though.


Some Russin person did.  it's out on the net somewhere.

As to taxing the older CPUs... How?  IDE can do real slow,  that's
not much of an issue.  Most of the VAX cpus do not handle
interrupts very fast due to the huge overhead of context switch.
But they can PIO in a loop fairly fast, that is to the limits
of Qbus.

Allison

Allison





From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Mon Oct 16 19:23:04 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: 48v dc power
Message-ID: <004d01c037d0$964f0460$8d769a8d@ajp166>

From: Joe <rigdonj@intellistar.net>
>>400ft, 10mhz clock for a S100 z80 system that was also distributed to
>>other boards on the bus.  A modification to the termination of that
line
>>virtually made it disappear, the standard terminators didn't actually
>>match the impedence of the line making it antenna.  Other hot one
>>was the Altair you could hear the 2mhz anywhere in the house
>>with the case on.
>
>  Was that being ratiated via the AC power lines or the keyboard cable
or
>what?
>
>    Joe


The altair just radiates....  All the jungle wire fromthe FP to bus.
There was no attempt to provide ground planes or decent grounding.

None of the systems I mentioned would have a "keyboard cable".

Allison


From foo at siconic.com  Mon Oct 16 18:37:48 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: NEC APC available
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20001016170120.029bec70@pc>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010161637170.10991-100000@siconic.com>

On Mon, 16 Oct 2000, John Foust wrote:

> At 05:20 PM 10/16/00 -0400, Kevin Stewart wrote:
> >We reformat the
> >machines, install an operating system (Windows with MS Works or Linux with
> >StarOffice), give it a monitor, clean it up, give it a printer if necessary
> >and send it on its way. In a 3-hour time period we can perform installations
> >on 180 machines with a crew of 5-10 people (using Norton Ghost Multicast
> >Server -- great little (well, not so little) program.
> 
> And who pays for all those Windows licenses?

I assume Bill Gates.  He's a charitable guy.  I'm sure he's willing to
look the other way for charity.

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From foo at siconic.com  Mon Oct 16 18:40:23 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: Fleamarkets (was Re: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0))
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001016153308.02839bd8@208.226.86.10>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010161638180.10991-100000@siconic.com>

On Mon, 16 Oct 2000, Chuck McManis wrote:

> Fascinating, if it came from MIT is was probably part of the MIT 
> "Whirlwind" making it an extremely valuable artifact. Too bad you didn't 
> pick it up, I'm guessing it would fetch over $10K at auction.

Are you trying to create an artificial frenzy, Chuck?  While I definitely
agree it is a historically valuable artifact, and this is assuming it did
come out of Whilrwind, saying it would fetch $10K at auction is kind of
irresponsible.

My guess is that you found a pallet of these at a local auction and are
just whipping up interest for an imminent eBay sale :)

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From tarsi at binhost.com  Mon Oct 16 19:56:49 2000
From: tarsi at binhost.com (Tarsi)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: AT&T 6300 PC
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20001016164741.02ecaee0@pc>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001016195438.00b69f00@binhost.com>

Hello, all!

A new addition to my collection, an AT&T 6300 PC.  Some stats that I have 
so far:

	i8086 CPU
	640 K RAM
	Weird keyboard
	green monochrome display
	Boots MSDOS 3.3 happily

I'll do some searching on the web later tonight for info on it, as well as 
cleaning it up, but if anyone has information on this little artifact, its 
abilities, software, manuals, or hardware specs, all is appreciated.

Thanks!  I'm just so happy I found him! (oh, and for $3 at Goodwill)

Tarsi
210

210-------------210-------------------210
VISIT OrangeCAM! http://orangenet.dhs.org/~cam/
	  tarsi@binhost.com
       http://orangenet.dhs.org
     http://tarsi.binhost.com
          http://www.foreverbeyond.org
210-------------210-------------------210


From eric at brouhaha.com  Mon Oct 16 20:06:17 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: Who collects (reads the mailing list...?) vintage computers
In-Reply-To: <002901c03720$bf662f00$0500fea9@winbook> (richard@idcomm.com)
References: <200010152344.TAA90636@tbaytel.net> <002901c03720$bf662f00$0500fea9@winbook>
Message-ID: <20001017010617.10849.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Richard Erlacher wrote about Z-80 systems from The Digital Group:
> and since I don't think they ever came out with a current (for the
> time) FDC, I don't think they ever got an OS running on it.

The originally shipped a single-density FDC for 8-inch drives.  It used
some NEC single-density only FDC chip that was *NOT* related in any way
to the uPD765 or the Intel 8271 or 8272.  I don't recall the part number,
but it was almost certainly uPD and three digits.

They offered a "Diskmon" OS, and Oasis.  I'm not sure that they offered
CP/M, but certainly people ran it.

Later they did a double-density FDC using a more common chip.

Eric

From wpfulmor at dimensional.com  Mon Oct 16 20:17:34 2000
From: wpfulmor at dimensional.com (William Fulmor)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: AT&T 6300 PC
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001016195438.00b69f00@binhost.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.4.10.10010161908080.8716-100000@flatland.dimensional.com>


I don't know anything about the 6300, but I've got 1 - 1/2 bios 1.43
upgrade kits, complete with ATT destruction pamphlet and 90 day LIMITED
WARRANTY for it if anyone wants to claim same.  Five bucks for S + H.

Bill

On Mon, 16 Oct 2000, Tarsi wrote:

> Hello, all!
> 
> A new addition to my collection, an AT&T 6300 PC.  Some stats that I have 
> so far:
> 
> 	i8086 CPU
> 	640 K RAM
> 	Weird keyboard
> 	green monochrome display
> 	Boots MSDOS 3.3 happily
> 
> I'll do some searching on the web later tonight for info on it, as well as 
> cleaning it up, but if anyone has information on this little artifact, its 
> abilities, software, manuals, or hardware specs, all is appreciated.
> 
> Thanks!  I'm just so happy I found him! (oh, and for $3 at Goodwill)
> 
> Tarsi
> 210
> 
> 210-------------210-------------------210
> VISIT OrangeCAM! http://orangenet.dhs.org/~cam/
> 	  tarsi@binhost.com
>        http://orangenet.dhs.org
>      http://tarsi.binhost.com
>           http://www.foreverbeyond.org
> 210-------------210-------------------210
> 


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Mon Oct 16 20:39:30 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: R.F. Interference (Was 48V)
Message-ID: <008801c037db$dabe3d40$8d769a8d@ajp166>

From: John Lawson <jpl15@panix.com>
>  Off Topic:  Shortwave radios. I have gotten hold of an ICOM PCR-1000,
>which is the actual 'radio' parts of a modern full-coverage receiver,
>
>   www.icomamerica.com and look in 'recievers' for more info.
>


I checked on it and by my standards, mostly useless.  It would 
have to be very quiet to make a ~2uV senstivity useful and it has
no SSB/ISB capability.

Allison


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Mon Oct 16 20:40:28 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: Who collects (reads the mailing list...?) vintage computers
Message-ID: <008901c037db$e15b5ac0$8d769a8d@ajp166>

From: Eric Smith <eric@brouhaha.com>
>The originally shipped a single-density FDC for 8-inch drives.  It used
>some NEC single-density only FDC chip that was *NOT* related in any way
>to the uPD765 or the Intel 8271 or 8272.  I don't recall the part
number,
>but it was almost certainly uPD and three digits.


The uPD372... I have two of them.

Allison


From richard at idcomm.com  Mon Oct 16 20:54:48 2000
From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: Who collects (reads the mailing list...?) vintage computers
References: <008901c037db$e15b5ac0$8d769a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <002701c037dd$3bd3a4c0$0500fea9@winbook>

Was that uPD 372 the version that handled hard-sectored diskettes as well?
I remember they had a uPD 371 as well, but I'm not remembering whether it
was a tape controller or a hard-sectored disk interface controller.  I seem
to remember something of that sort being available in the mid-late '70's.

About that OASYS, I thing they ended up ground-ruling that out for the older
systems and dedicating their own implementation strictly to a later system
they brought out, in keeping with the trend toward integrated packaging,
called the BYTEMASTER, (and soon nicknamed the master-byter) probably
because of the long delay between prepaid order and delivery.  I'm not even
certain they actually ever shipped any working units.  It was an attractive
package, though.

I remember Robert Suding once telling me that the reason they couldn't do
any better with their FDC's was because the 74S124 (VCO) was too expensive.
Now, I used it from time to time and don't rmember ever paying more than $2
for one.  Of course, you never know how long before then the DG people were
trying to buy the things.

Dick

----- Original Message -----
From: ajp166 <ajp166@bellatlantic.net>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2000 7:40 PM
Subject: Re: Who collects (reads the mailing list...?) vintage computers


> From: Eric Smith <eric@brouhaha.com>
> >The originally shipped a single-density FDC for 8-inch drives.  It used
> >some NEC single-density only FDC chip that was *NOT* related in any way
> >to the uPD765 or the Intel 8271 or 8272.  I don't recall the part
> number,
> >but it was almost certainly uPD and three digits.
>
>
> The uPD372... I have two of them.
>
> Allison
>
>


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Mon Oct 16 21:01:35 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: IDE on Qbus (was Re: Microvax II)
Message-ID: <00d801c037de$cabdd600$8d769a8d@ajp166>

From: Phil Budne <phil@ultimate.com>
>> Has anyone designed a quick-n-dirty Qbus IDE adapter?
>
>see ftp://digital.dp.ua/DEC/ata/


Knew someone would look. ;)

>    ATA disk interface


See above.

>    BOOT EPROM or Flash

MRV11 with what you need in eprom or MXV11
M8189 11/23 takes eproms on the cpu.

>    Crystal CS8900 Ethernet

DELQA

>    512KW SRAM


MS11 memoriesare out there.

>    SuperIO (ie; WinBond)
>    or
>    NS16550A (or eqiv high-speed, deep FIFO) UART for networking/kermit
>    Floppy ctrlr (capable of driving Shugart 8", 5.25" 3")

Well the 16550 is basically a DZV-11, DHV11, that will get you a 
bunch of lines good to 38kb

FDC for the mix if 3.5 or 5.25 is RQDX3, late rom.
5.25 is rx50(400k) and rx33(1.2m)
3.5 is rx23(1.44m) and rx24(720k)

8" is RX02/RX12.  256k/512k with 256k standard sssd 8"
media and formatting.


>    ISA Bridge

Why bother.

Now if you wanted that all on a 8x9" board then I'd perk up my years.


Allison







From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Mon Oct 16 22:03:56 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: AT&T 6300 PC
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001016195438.00b69f00@binhost.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.0.20001016164741.02ecaee0@pc>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001016220356.3cdfcfcc@mailhost.intellistar.net>

Tarsi,

   Three of my close friends bought 6300s when they were new so I'm fairly
familar with them. What do you want to know? Here's few facts: They were
made by Olivette. They use the same video card for monochrome or color
monitors. The monitors do not have a power cord, they get their power
through the video connector. The resolution on the color monitor is higher
than that on a PC and is non-standard. They seem to be very IBM compatible,
the AT&T DOS seems to work fine on a PC. I'm not sure if vice versa is
true. The hard drives in them seem to be very unreliable. Owners of most of
the ones that I know of ended up putting hard cards in theirs. The
keyboard, mouse and monitor are all special and won't interchange with any
other machine that I know of.  I know where there are several here in
Florida that you can have cheap ($0) if you'll come get them. I think
there's still a set of docs there too. There should be one color monitor
there with them. If I remember right, the new price on them was about $2700
for the monochrome model and $3200 for the color model and I THINK that was
with just two floppy drives. They had an AT&T version of MS-DOS. I THINK
they came with version 2.11. I should still have a copy here somewhere if
you want a copy. I think it had a few enhancements of the same version of
IBM DOS but I don't remember exactly what they were. 

    Joe

At 07:56 PM 10/16/00 -0500, you wrote:
>Hello, all!
>
>A new addition to my collection, an AT&T 6300 PC.  Some stats that I have 
>so far:
>
>	i8086 CPU
>	640 K RAM
>	Weird keyboard
>	green monochrome display
>	Boots MSDOS 3.3 happily
>
>I'll do some searching on the web later tonight for info on it, as well as 
>cleaning it up, but if anyone has information on this little artifact, its 
>abilities, software, manuals, or hardware specs, all is appreciated.
>
>Thanks!  I'm just so happy I found him! (oh, and for $3 at Goodwill)
>
>Tarsi
>210
>
>210-------------210-------------------210
>VISIT OrangeCAM! http://orangenet.dhs.org/~cam/
>	  tarsi@binhost.com
>       http://orangenet.dhs.org
>     http://tarsi.binhost.com
>          http://www.foreverbeyond.org
>210-------------210-------------------210
>
>


From at258 at osfn.org  Mon Oct 16 21:12:19 2000
From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: AT&T 6300 PC
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001016195438.00b69f00@binhost.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.1001016221142.8211B-100000@osfn.org>

It's a nice little machine, but ou need to be careful of the keys - 
the're a bit delicate.

On Mon, 16 Oct 2000, Tarsi wrote:

> Hello, all!
> 
> A new addition to my collection, an AT&T 6300 PC.  Some stats that I have 
> so far:
> 
> 	i8086 CPU
> 	640 K RAM
> 	Weird keyboard
> 	green monochrome display
> 	Boots MSDOS 3.3 happily
> 
> I'll do some searching on the web later tonight for info on it, as well as 
> cleaning it up, but if anyone has information on this little artifact, its 
> abilities, software, manuals, or hardware specs, all is appreciated.
> 
> Thanks!  I'm just so happy I found him! (oh, and for $3 at Goodwill)
> 
> Tarsi
> 210
> 
> 210-------------210-------------------210
> VISIT OrangeCAM! http://orangenet.dhs.org/~cam/
> 	  tarsi@binhost.com
>        http://orangenet.dhs.org
>      http://tarsi.binhost.com
>           http://www.foreverbeyond.org
> 210-------------210-------------------210
> 
> 

M. K. Peirce
Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc.
215 Shady Lea Road,
North Kingstown, RI 02852

"Casta est qui nemo rogavit."
              
              - Ovid


From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com  Mon Oct 16 21:27:52 2000
From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: Fleamarkets (was Re: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0))
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010161638180.10991-100000@siconic.com>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001016153308.02839bd8@208.226.86.10>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001016192435.02fb62d0@208.226.86.10>

Yeah, I just found this old house, apparently owned by one of Babbage's 
decendents, I couldn't believe it, wall to wall ENIACS! With boxes and 
boxes of replacement tubes. There is also a working difference engine but I 
may sell that to a scrapper because it has a lot (and I mean a LOT) of 
brass and copper in it. Besides it didn't come with a manual. Only a couple 
of Enigma machines that were new in the box, one still marked with the 
Luftwaffe transport seals. I'll probably break my back single handedly 
loading these into a forty five foot 18 wheeler that I rented for the day. 
Sheesh. I'll set a few aside for people on the list maybe.

--Chuck

At 04:40 PM 10/16/00 -0700, you wrote:
>On Mon, 16 Oct 2000, Chuck McManis wrote:
>
> > Fascinating, if it came from MIT is was probably part of the MIT
> > "Whirlwind" making it an extremely valuable artifact. Too bad you didn't
> > pick it up, I'm guessing it would fetch over $10K at auction.
>
>Are you trying to create an artificial frenzy, Chuck?  While I definitely
>agree it is a historically valuable artifact, and this is assuming it did
>come out of Whilrwind, saying it would fetch $10K at auction is kind of
>irresponsible.
>
>My guess is that you found a pallet of these at a local auction and are
>just whipping up interest for an imminent eBay sale :)
>
>Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org



From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Mon Oct 16 21:27:04 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: Who collects (reads the mailing list...?) vintage computers
Message-ID: <012001c037e3$0defff30$8d769a8d@ajp166>

From: Richard Erlacher <richard@idcomm.com>


>Was that uPD 372 the version that handled hard-sectored diskettes as
well?


It could.

>I remember they had a uPD 371 as well, but I'm not remembering whether
it
>was a tape controller or a hard-sectored disk interface controller.  I
seem
>to remember something of that sort being available in the mid-late
'70's.


All the way up to 1980.  I have some 371s too.  makes a fair tape
controller.
Though I found using a 765 or 1793 far easier to use as the old 37x parts
were three voltage nmos and two phase clocks.  They were ok with
systems that had 8080s.

>I remember Robert Suding once telling me that the reason they couldn't
do
>any better with their FDC's was because the 74S124 (VCO) was too
expensive.
>Now, I used it from time to time and don't rmember ever paying more than
$2
>for one.  Of course, you never know how long before then the DG people
were
>trying to buy the things.


the 74124 was fast enough and pretty cheap.  PLLs using it were a pita.
If you used it there was a lot of other TTL around it so it was not the
cheapest
way to go and often the flakeyest.  A good design with oneshots worked
well enough.  Later one when people figured out how to do a digital
oneshot
or digital PLL then it got real cheap.

Allison


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Mon Oct 16 21:34:09 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: PDP-8 question...
Message-ID: <012101c037e3$1519a540$8d769a8d@ajp166>


-----Original Message-----


Mega thanks, that makes some sense looking at the board.
I'd suspected something like that.  Te ability to start on any
4k boundary is nice.  The 74138 on one side and the '20 on
the other should have screamed at me.

Allison

>The 16 pin DIP socket has a "black box" plugged into it. Hmm, popping
>that box open reveals the expected jumpers.
>
>Looking down at the jumpers, the upper left corner is pin 1, upper right
>is pin 16, I have 4 wires installed:
>
> pin 5 - pin 14
> pin 6 - pin 13
> pin 7 - pin 12
> pin 8 - pin 11
>
>My board is set to cover fields 4 - 7.
>
>My guess would be that the 3 EMA bits are decoded into 8 lines, and are
>present on pins 1 - 8, corresponding to DEC field terminology 0 - 7,
>which makes obvious sense since pins 1 - 8 are on one side of the
>DIP jumper, and that pins 11 - 14 are the individual 4Kx12 field
>select jumpers.
>
>-Lawrence LeMay



From tarsi at binhost.com  Mon Oct 16 22:02:53 2000
From: tarsi at binhost.com (Tarsi)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: AT&T 6300 PC
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.1001016221142.8211B-100000@osfn.org>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001016195438.00b69f00@binhost.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001016220201.00c09360@binhost.com>

A bit delicate and a bit in the wrong places. :)  but it's fun.

Tarsi
210

At 09:12 PM 10/16/00, Merle K. Peirce wrote:
>It's a nice little machine, but ou need to be careful of the keys -
>the're a bit delicate.
>
>On Mon, 16 Oct 2000, Tarsi wrote:
>
> > Hello, all!
> >
> > A new addition to my collection, an AT&T 6300 PC.  Some stats that I have
> > so far:
> >
> >       i8086 CPU
> >       640 K RAM
> >       Weird keyboard
> >       green monochrome display
> >       Boots MSDOS 3.3 happily
> >
> > I'll do some searching on the web later tonight for info on it, as well as
> > cleaning it up, but if anyone has information on this little artifact, its
> > abilities, software, manuals, or hardware specs, all is appreciated.
> >
> > Thanks!  I'm just so happy I found him! (oh, and for $3 at Goodwill)
> >
> > Tarsi
> > 210
> >
> > 210-------------210-------------------210
> > VISIT OrangeCAM! http://orangenet.dhs.org/~cam/
> >         tarsi@binhost.com
> >        http://orangenet.dhs.org
> >      http://tarsi.binhost.com
> >           http://www.foreverbeyond.org
> > 210-------------210-------------------210
> >
> >
>
>M. K. Peirce
>Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc.
>215 Shady Lea Road,
>North Kingstown, RI 02852
>
>"Casta est qui nemo rogavit."
>
>               - Ovid


210-------------210-------------------210
VISIT OrangeCAM! http://orangenet.dhs.org/~cam/
	  tarsi@binhost.com
       http://orangenet.dhs.org
     http://tarsi.binhost.com
          http://www.foreverbeyond.org
210-------------210-------------------210


From tarsi at binhost.com  Mon Oct 16 22:08:34 2000
From: tarsi at binhost.com (Tarsi)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: AT&T 6300 PC
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001016220356.3cdfcfcc@mailhost.intellistar.net>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001016195438.00b69f00@binhost.com>
 <4.3.2.7.0.20001016164741.02ecaee0@pc>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001016220412.00c01790@binhost.com>


>What do you want to know?

Well, here's some:
         - Obviously not worth much, eh?  Just to us collectors. :)
         - What hardware is avail for them?
         - Docs, docs, docs
         - And fun stories, like yours.  I love that stuff.

 >I think
>there's still a set of docs there too.

I'm nowhere near Florida (I live in Iowa), but if I could somehow get those 
docs, I'd be more than happy to fly some green your way.

>There should be one color monitor
>there with them.

Dang, that'd be nice.

>They had an AT&T version of MS-DOS. I THINK
>they came with version 2.11. I should still have a copy here somewhere if
>you want a copy.

Sure...that'd be fun.  Right now it boots MSDOS 3.3 off a floppy, rather 
well, too.

Ah, I love this hobby....<goes back to dig around in the machine>

Tarsi
210

210-------------210-------------------210
VISIT OrangeCAM! http://orangenet.dhs.org/~cam/
	  tarsi@binhost.com
       http://orangenet.dhs.org
     http://tarsi.binhost.com
          http://www.foreverbeyond.org
210-------------210-------------------210


From rdd at smart.net  Tue Oct 17 00:17:04 2000
From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: Red Erasors, contacts, and gold revisited
In-Reply-To: <200010161811.LAA27871@civic.hal.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010170107190.5594-100000@smarty.smart.net>

On Mon, 16 Oct 2000, Dwight Elvey wrote:
>  As for the grease. The best stuff is made by Dow Corning.
> It is called DC#4. Most electrical shops have it ( lights,
> wire and conduit types ). McMaster Carr carries is as well.

There's also another product, the name of which I can't recall at the
moment, but it was the recommended thing in the comp.sys.3b1 newsgroup
for the power-supply connector. I wonder if its something similar to
this DC#4 stuff.

--
Copyright(C) 2000 R. D. Davis  Know the truth: Samhain, a.k.a. Halloween, isn't
All Rights Reserved            a time to fear, but a sacred time between times,
rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 a time to remember & be nearer to, our ancestors
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd   and a time to celebrate rebirth and a new year.


From jpl15 at panix.com  Tue Oct 17 00:19:20 2000
From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: R.F. Interference (Was 48V)
In-Reply-To: <008801c037db$dabe3d40$8d769a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0010170101420.29648-100000@panix3.panix.com>



On Mon, 16 Oct 2000, ajp166 wrote:

> From: John Lawson <jpl15@panix.com>
> >  Off Topic:  Shortwave radios. I have gotten hold of an ICOM PCR-1000,
> >which is the actual 'radio' parts of a modern full-coverage receiver,
> >
> >   www.icomamerica.com and look in 'recievers' for more info.
> >
> 
> 
> I checked on it and by my standards, mostly useless.  It would 
> have to be very quiet to make a ~2uV senstivity useful and it has
> no SSB/ISB capability.
> 
> Allison


  It appears you have left off a '0' in the model number and looked up the
"lite" (read: mostly useless), albeit cheaper, version of the radio.
[PCR-100] The PCR-1000 has all common modes, filters from 500htz ->
500KHtz, and SSB sens [10dB S/N @ 2.8Khtz] from .56uV in the lowest
octaves to .25uV in the UHF ranges; FM [12dB SINAD @ 15KHtz] .5uV down to
.32uV.

   Sorry for the off topic (sorta) stuff, folks...  but I didn't want
anyone to be put off if they were considering the Icom PCR-1000 as an
addition to their Toys. After a month of using it with a random
long-wire, it is one of the better radios I've owned, and certainly the
finest in the performance-to-size ratio department.

  Cheers

John



From richard at idcomm.com  Tue Oct 17 00:28:26 2000
From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: Who collects (reads the mailing list...?) vintage computers
References: <012001c037e3$0defff30$8d769a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <001e01c037fb$145975a0$0500fea9@winbook>


----- Original Message -----
From: ajp166 <ajp166@bellatlantic.net>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2000 8:27 PM
Subject: Re: Who collects (reads the mailing list...?) vintage computers


> From: Richard Erlacher <edick@idcomm.com>
>
<snip>
> If you used it there was a lot of other TTL around it so it was not the
> cheapest way to go and often the flakeyest.  A good design with oneshots
worked
> well enough.  Later one when people figured out how to do a digital
> oneshot or digital PLL then it got real cheap.
>
> Allison
>
>
The only thing about those days that I remember really clearly is that while
buggering both the boss' wife and his three daughters probably wouldn't get
you fired, using a one-shot certainly would.  Not only that, but it would
ensure you never work again.  IMHO, saying "a good design with one-shots" is
like saying "a light, bright shade of black."  One shots are used to cover
up what you don't know how to do correctly.

Dick


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Tue Oct 17 01:24:20 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: Dauphin DTR-1 running Ersatz-11
In-Reply-To: <200010150755.e9F7t3n01796@bender.ndx.net>
References: <v04020a00b60ed01a375b@[192.168.1.5]> from "Zane H. Healy" at
 Oct 14, 2000 10:01:05 PM
Message-ID: <v04020a07b611a08f5662@[192.168.1.5]>

Kirk B. Davis wrote:
>Try a different CPU like a 73 or 70. I know this helped
>for booting some of the UNIX images. It's too bad that
>you are using Windows 3.1 because I have a version
>of the Supnik emulator that runs under WIN32. I know that
>someone on this list must have compiled it as a DOS
>app. Let me know if you don't have any luck and I'll
>do a quick dos compile for you.

Unfortuantly no joy on setting the CPU to something different.  A DOS
version of the Supnik emulator would probably be a big help at this point!
If this doesn't work I just might have to try turning the machine into a
Apple ][ or Commodore 64 ;^)

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|                 http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/              |

From healyzh at aracnet.com  Tue Oct 17 01:26:43 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: Dauphin DTR-1 running Ersatz-11
In-Reply-To: 
 <20001015212739.IYGA11792.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>
References: <v04020a00b60ed01a375b@[192.168.1.5]>
Message-ID: <v04020a08b611a121788e@[192.168.1.5]>

Jeffrey S. Worley wrote:
>Maybe you are having similar trouble with your emulator. Perhaps trying
>the emulator in a DOSBox in Windows might help work around it.
>
>It also might have something to do with Smartdrive being enabled or (base)
>memory issues.  In Config.sys:
>
>Device=C:\dos\himem.sys /testmem:off
>Device=c:\dos\emm386.exe noems
>Files=60
>Buffers=40
>Dos=high,UMB
>
>
>Remove any superfluous lines in config and Autoexec and see what happens.
>
>Sorry if you know all this allready.  Just trying to help.

No joy I'm afraid.  Trust me these suggestions helped.  I've not really
touched DOS since before these systems were new!

				Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|                 http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/              |

From agraham at ccat.co.uk  Tue Oct 17 04:49:05 2000
From: agraham at ccat.co.uk (Adrian Graham)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: New stuff
Message-ID: <00Oct17.104914bst.46093@gatekeeper.ccat.co.uk>

Hi folks,

Some recent additions to the BD collection, courtesy of a customer who was
about to skip (dumpster) the whole lot of 'em! Well, the skipping happens
tomorrow so I saved 1 of each:

VT100 (yay), serial #AB00914 so I don't know if that makes it early or not?
Worked fine once I put the fuse in properly and reseated the space bar on
the keyboard :) Aaah, that keyclick of yore....
VT320 with keyboard
VT420 in box
VT510 w/keyboard
VT520 w/keyboard (yes I know you can still buy 'em but I hate seeing
anything chucked!)
Rainbow 100+ with screen & keyboard....works fine running CPM/86.......

Also got a couple more Pongs at the weekend including the Tandy TV
Scoreboard in tasteful orangey-brown.....

And as a P500-related aside I am the current custodian of my own P500's
stablemate which I have to say is in far better condition (packaging wise)
than mine but sadly the keyboard doesn't work. What are the chances of this
- a guy working for Commodore brings a couple of P500s in for a shop called
Vulcan Electronics in London in what, 82/83?. Both are packaged identically,
both have german power cords etc and are taped up the same way. One ends up
in a collector's loft courtesy of said Commodore bloke and the other ends up
being picked up by me at a local boot sale. The machines are 30 miles apart
and I already know the bloke that has it in his loft!

Spooky, that's what it is.

--
Adrian Graham MCSE/ASE/MCP
C CAT Limited
Gubbins: http://www.ccat.co.uk (work)
<http://www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk> (home)
<http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk> (80's computer collection)
"Missing you already" - Mark Radcliffe


From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Tue Oct 17 06:16:15 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: Fleamarkets (was Re: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0))
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB20A@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>

> FWIW there was what must've been a 30" disk platter
>      at the MIT Flea this weekend, mounted on its 
>      center hub.  Never saw a disk larger than 14"
>      before.  Didn't get the manufacturer but the
>      price was $40.00 and the seller was Frank Fink.

Frank's alive? He owes my company money for returned
product for which he never issued a refund. I'd assumed
he'd died.

<sigh>

-dq

From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Tue Oct 17 06:18:54 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: Red Erasors, contacts, and gold revisited
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB20B@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>

> Hi Doug
>  I don't clean. I get the feeling they may be talking
> about silicone glue and not the grease. The oil is about
> as non-corrosive as anything that I've seen.
>  On my boat, I use it on light sockets and any connections
> I make. The only failures I've had are the original connections
> made by the manufacture and previous owner. You do want to
> apply it to a clean surface. Any salt covered over will still
> be salt. Anyway, it make me wonder.

Well, they did say "under the right conditions", what they didn't
say is that those conditions are (maybe) only found in a lab...

;-)

-dq

From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Tue Oct 17 06:21:33 2000
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
In-Reply-To: <20001015014327.28486.qmail@brouhaha.com>
References: <39E73DAA.17145.B20F5F@localhost> (Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de)
Message-ID: <39EC525D.13415.148AEBC0@localhost>

> Hans wrote:
> > And, as already aggreed with Salam, the VCF will have a different
> > policy about that for next year.

> A different policy about what?

Vendors dumping Schtuff after VCF.
Details still have to be developed.

Gruss
H.

--
VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen
http://www.vintage.org/vcfe
http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Tue Oct 17 08:47:57 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: AT&T 6300 PC
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001016220412.00c01790@binhost.com>
References: <3.0.1.16.20001016220356.3cdfcfcc@mailhost.intellistar.net>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20001016195438.00b69f00@binhost.com>
 <4.3.2.7.0.20001016164741.02ecaee0@pc>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001017084757.343f757e@mailhost.intellistar.net>

At 10:08 PM 10/16/00 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>What do you want to know?
>
>Well, here's some:
>         - Obviously not worth much, eh?  Just to us collectors. :)

    Correct.


>         - What hardware is avail for them?

   Same as any PC.


>         - Docs, docs, docs

   They came with a good size set of docs and they were in dark red binders
in slip cases, just like those for the AT&T Unix PC (3B1) and the 3B2
computers. I don't remember what all they covered but I think there was
about six books to a set. One of my friends probably still has his.


>         - And fun stories, like yours.  I love that stuff.
>
> >I think
>>there's still a set of docs there too.
>
>I'm nowhere near Florida (I live in Iowa), but if I could somehow get those 
>docs, I'd be more than happy to fly some green your way.

   I'll see if he wants to turn loose of the stuff. I kind of hate to split
it up though.
>
>>There should be one color monitor
>>there with them.
>
>Dang, that'd be nice.
>
>>They had an AT&T version of MS-DOS. I THINK
>>they came with version 2.11. I should still have a copy here somewhere if
>>you want a copy.
>
>Sure...that'd be fun. 

   I'll look for it.

    Joe


 Right now it boots MSDOS 3.3 off a floppy, rather 
>well, too.

  As I said, they seem to be very IBM compatible. I don't remember seeing
anything that wouldn't run on them. I think my friends bought their's in
late 1984 or early 1985 and at that time a lot of the brand X machines were
not IBM compatible. I know, I had a Sanyo 555. What a PITA!

     Joe


>
>Ah, I love this hobby....<goes back to dig around in the machine>
>
>Tarsi
>210
>
>210-------------210-------------------210
>VISIT OrangeCAM! http://orangenet.dhs.org/~cam/
>	  tarsi@binhost.com
>       http://orangenet.dhs.org
>     http://tarsi.binhost.com
>          http://www.foreverbeyond.org
>210-------------210-------------------210
>
>


From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Tue Oct 17 09:10:58 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: OT but you have to read this: New Information on the Kursk
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001017091058.3b67bdf6@mailhost.intellistar.net>

>Subject: New Information on the Kursk
>
>Some new information has come to light over the Kursk disaster. For those
>with short attention spans, the Kursk was the submarine that blew up and
>sank in the Artic Ocean killing all 118 on board. The Russians tried to
>blame the incident on a collision with an unidentified object. However,
>sonar tapes which recorded the blasts (a small one at first, then a much
>larger one two minutes later) cast doubt on these claims. A whistle blower
>within the Russian military has leaked that the crew of the Kursk was
>testing a new type of torpedo when the accident occurred. It seemed very
>likely that the test didn't go quite as planned.
>
>While rescue efforts to save the survivors of the Kursk failed, salvage
>crews were able to recover a 'Black Box' from the submarine which contained
>detailed accounts of the events leading up to the explosion. As luck would
>have it, we got a copy of those tapes.
>
>It turns out that the submarine crew was trying to load Microsoft Windows on
>their fire control computer. Their intent was to replace the aging CP/M
>operating system with the flashier Windows OS. Apparently, the Russians
>didn't know about the legendary stability problems exhibited by Windows. The
>log tapes make this painfully obvious:
>
>Captain: Is new fire control Windows OS installed yet, Comrade?
>
>Seaman: Almost Sir. Just need to finish filling out registration card.
>
>Captain: Excellent. Soon is being able to point and click our enemies into
>oblivion.
>[evil laughter in background]
>
>Seaman: Comrade Captain! Is booting! Look, it says "Preparing to run Windows
>for first time".
>[long pause]
>
>Seaman: Arrgh! Sir, is wanting me to reboot again. That makes 27th time.
>
>Captain: Hmmm. Is not encouraging. Go ahead and reboot again.
>
>Seaman: Aye, aye Sir.
>[another long pause]
>
>Seaman: Captain, is up again. Is saying it found new hardware ... A CD-ROM
>drive and that is needing drivers.
>
>Captain: Where are drivers?
>
>Seaman: On CD-ROM.
>
>Captain: You are joking, right?
>
>Seaman: No Sir.
>
>Captain: Reboot damn thing again. I am starting not to liking this Windows.
>[another long pause]
>
>Seaman: Sir! Is back! Is saying it found the Gorby2000 Torpedo and is
>looking for device drivers. Do we have driver disk?
>
>Captain: I do not think so.
>
>Seaman: I will tell it to use default drivers.
>[another long pause]
>
>Seaman: Crap. Is wanting to reboot again.
>
>Captain: How many times are we going to reboot today? Is taking forever. Our
>hull is rusting out before this works.
>[another long pause]
>
>Seaman: Sir! Is up and this time is not asking for anything!
>
>Captain: Really? No device drivers? No registration cards? No user profiles?
>
>Seaman: No Sir. I think is ready.
>
>Captain: Good work comrade. Now is clicking on the fire control icon and
>letting us see how this works.
>
>Seaman: Is clicking now, Sir.
>[another long pause]
>
>Captain: Why does fire control screen have dancing paper clip on it?
>
>Seaman: I have no idea, Sir.
>
>Captain: Hmmm, is trying clicking on menu.
>
>Seaman: Aye Sir. Is saying: Open E-mail, Spam a friend, Mail a Virus, Fire a
>Torpedo.
>
>Captain: Is spamming friend later. Is firing torpedo now.
>
>Seaman: Aye Sir.
>[another long pause]
>
>Seaman: Is asking us to load torpedo and to click when ready.
>
>Captain: Torpedo room, load torpedo in tube number 1!
>
>[intercom:] This is Torpedo room. Torpedo is loaded, Sir.
>
>Captain: Click on continue button.
>
>Seaman: Aye Sir.
>[another long pause]
>
>Seaman: Is asking for target, Sir.
>
>Captain: Hmmm, is targeting Rainbow Warrior.
>
>Seaman: Aye Sir. Damn! Is saying torpedo is low on ink.
>
>Captain: Click ignore. We will get some ink when we return to base.
>
>Seaman: Aye Sir. We are ready to fire.
>
>Captain: Very good. You may fire when ready comrade.
>
>Seaman: Is firing torpedo, Sir.
>[another really long pause]
>
>Captain: Well?
>
>Seaman: Am trying Sir. Nothing is happening. Wait minute....
>[a loud explosion is heard in the background followed by screaming on
>intercom]
>
>Captain: WTF was that?!?!?
>
>Seaman: Captain! New screen has appeared! "Outlook Express Fire Control has
>performed an illegal operation and will be shut down. "Click 'OK' to
>continue."
>
>Seaman: Oh my God! Paper clip has died! What should I do?
>
>Captain: Is shutting it down! Is shutting it down!
>
>Seaman: Is not responding Sir!
>
>Captain: Try 'CTRL-ALT-DELETE'!
>
>Seaman: Aye Sir. We are in luck! Task manager is still operating. I am
>instructing task manager to shut down Outlook Fire Control.
>[another long pause]
>
>Seaman: Task manager is saying that Outlook Fire Control is not responding.
>
>Captain: Well, no shit. Tell it to 'end task.'
>
>Seaman: Is happening nothing, Sir.
>
>Captain: Is trying 'CTRL-ALT-DELETE' again.
>
>Seaman: Aye Sir.
>[sounds of frantic pecking on keyboard.]
>
>Seaman: Oooh! Is pretty blue screen!
>
>Captain: Holy Shit! Not Blue Screen of Dea....
>[KABLAM! A really big explosion. More screaming and the sound of rushing
>water.]
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
>
>The tape ends at this point.
>
>During the week long rescue effort, divers reported hearing tapping in the
>form of Morse code coming from survivors inside the damaged sub. The
>rescuers couldn't understand why a group of men would spend the last of
>their strength tapping out "Windows sucks" in Morse code. The tapes of the
>last moments of the Kursk may offer some insight into this.
>
>


From amichael at nortelnetworks.com  Tue Oct 17 08:15:49 2000
From: amichael at nortelnetworks.com (Arlen Michaels)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:57:59 2005
Subject: Who collects (reads the mailing list...?) vintage computers i n 
         Quebec, Canada?
Message-ID: <13E2EF604DE5D111B2E50000F80824E805CFAE52@zwdld001.ca.nortel.com>

I've occasionally come across some other collectors here in Ottawa but old
stuff is very scarce for any of us in Canada.  Feel free to email your want
list just in case.  Perhaps it will inspire the rest of us to do the same.
Swapping stuff locally sure beats fighting Canadian Customs and the lousy
US$ exchange rate.

Arlen Michaels
--
Arlen Michaels     amichael@nortelnetworks.com
Nortel Networks, Ottawa, Canada

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Claude [SMTP:claudew@sprint.ca]
> Sent:	Saturday, October 14, 2000 10:46 PM
> To:	classiccmp@classiccmp.org
> Subject:	Who collects (reads the mailing list...?) vintage computers
> in Quebec,  Canada?
> 
> Hi
> 
> Sometimes I think I may be the only vintage computer collector in
> Quebec, Canada.
> 
> I would like to hear if anybody else does any collecting around here
> (Montreal area)
> 
> I have yet to find anybody to trade or talk collecting face-to-face
> anywhere around here even if I have posted on several montreal
> newsgroups that I am looking to buy/trade this kinda stuff...
> 
> When I mention I collect vintage computers, people look at me like I am
> due for a trip in the "wacko wagon"...
> 
> Computers are tough to find here (not like california...) I have managed
> to accumulate/fix/restore approx 50 micros (all working) from the
> 197x-198x early 1990's...lotta books, software and peripherals...
> 
> Those who feel sad for me can send me their Lisa's, TRS model IIIs and
> Next boxes ;-> 
> 
> ...things I will probably never find around here and I refuse to
> purchase them on ebay for a zillion bucks...
> 
> Thanks for reading
> Claude

From tarsi at binhost.com  Tue Oct 17 08:41:02 2000
From: tarsi at binhost.com (Tarsi)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: AT&T 6300 PC
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001017084757.343f757e@mailhost.intellistar.net>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001016220412.00c01790@binhost.com>
 <3.0.1.16.20001016220356.3cdfcfcc@mailhost.intellistar.net>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20001016195438.00b69f00@binhost.com>
 <4.3.2.7.0.20001016164741.02ecaee0@pc>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001017083905.02475d80@binhost.com>


> >         - What hardware is avail for them?
>    Same as any PC.

Although it appears to be a proprietary bus technology, only for special 
cards.  Hrm...

> >I'm nowhere near Florida (I live in Iowa), but if I could somehow get those
> >docs, I'd be more than happy to fly some green your way.
>    I'll see if he wants to turn loose of the stuff. I kind of hate to split
>it up though.

Understood.  Copies of docs I'd pay for as well.

>  Right now it boots MSDOS 3.3 off a floppy, rather
> >well, too.
>
>   As I said, they seem to be very IBM compatible. I don't remember seeing
>anything that wouldn't run on them. I think my friends bought their's in
>late 1984 or early 1985 and at that time a lot of the brand X machines were
>not IBM compatible. I know, I had a Sanyo 555. What a PITA!

The one thing I haven't figured out yet is how to get into the BIOS 
settings...is it a keystroke or will I need to run a setup program from a disk?

Tarsi
210


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Tue Oct 17 09:11:51 2000
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: Commodore 720
In-Reply-To: <20001016084954.NYNZ625.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@pii350>
References: <005701c03753$215e1100$dadf8490@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au>
Message-ID: <39EC7A47.4872.1526D6BB@localhost>


> > I don't seem to be finding much these days, so please excuse me showing this
> > off.
> > No keyboard unfortunately.

> > http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=1166661&a=9401608

Any CBM II Keyboard should do the trick. I may have one
left from a 8296LP (the computer has been stolen two years ago).

> Finally!  That kind of housing style that looks just right at home 
> with 1990's stuff.  I don't get it that C= didn't apply that styling 
> and "compactness" to their other machines and use color monitor and 
> more modern guts.  C= in late times before got bagged by chapter 11 
> was building very unstylish blocky machines and large as well, theirs 
> looked alike to any clones machines at that time.

They did, the 8032 and 8296 LP have been sold well during the
mid 80s, althou it looked like Commo did it only because die
hard CBM users forced them, while the company focused onto
the home/game market - like Apple and the A2s.

> Looks like they took a C64 or doubled up C128 version stuffed 
> into that thing?  When I was in high school, I see plus/4, c64's by 
> brunch all in all kinds of problems and dud psu bricks in junk piles 
> in electronics class room.  That's years ago.

Nop, the 720 is the All in one brother of the 610, which is
nothing else than the German numbering scheme for the B128.

> Good catch on your "rare" find, *honestly* I haven't seen this kind 
> ever.

In fact, most 'PET' (read CBM) to be found nowadays are
of this kind (8031, 8296), just the 720 is realy uncomon.

Gruss
H.

--
VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen
http://www.vintage.org/vcfe
http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Tue Oct 17 10:27:39 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: AT&T 6300 PC
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001017083905.02475d80@binhost.com>
References: <3.0.1.16.20001017084757.343f757e@mailhost.intellistar.net>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20001016220412.00c01790@binhost.com>
 <3.0.1.16.20001016220356.3cdfcfcc@mailhost.intellistar.net>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20001016195438.00b69f00@binhost.com>
 <4.3.2.7.0.20001016164741.02ecaee0@pc>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001017102739.0b3f88ea@mailhost.intellistar.net>

At 08:41 AM 10/17/00 -0500, you wrote:
>
>> >         - What hardware is avail for them?
>>    Same as any PC.
>
>Although it appears to be a proprietary bus technology, only for special 
>cards.  Hrm...

   I think there was one proprietary slot but I never saw anything made for
it. But I think they had regular ISA slots too. I don't remember if they
were 8 or 16 bit though. I KNOW they had some standard slots since several
of my friends put hard cards in them.


>
>> >I'm nowhere near Florida (I live in Iowa), but if I could somehow get
those
>> >docs, I'd be more than happy to fly some green your way.
>>    I'll see if he wants to turn loose of the stuff. I kind of hate to split
>>it up though.
>
>Understood.  Copies of docs I'd pay for as well.
>
>>  Right now it boots MSDOS 3.3 off a floppy, rather
>> >well, too.
>>
>>   As I said, they seem to be very IBM compatible. I don't remember seeing
>>anything that wouldn't run on them. I think my friends bought their's in
>>late 1984 or early 1985 and at that time a lot of the brand X machines were
>>not IBM compatible. I know, I had a Sanyo 555. What a PITA!
>
>The one thing I haven't figured out yet is how to get into the BIOS 
>settings...is it a keystroke or will I need to run a setup program from a
disk?

   NO I think these had a set up program. I'll check on that too.

    Joe
>
>Tarsi
>210
>
>


From jhfine at idirect.com  Tue Oct 17 09:34:13 2000
From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: Who collects (reads the mailing list...?) vintage computers i n 
	         Quebec, Canada?
References: <13E2EF604DE5D111B2E50000F80824E805CFAE52@zwdld001.ca.nortel.com>
Message-ID: <39EC6365.680CDDC3@idirect.com>

>Arlen Michaels wrote:

> I've occasionally come across some other collectors here in Ottawa but old
> stuff is very scarce for any of us in Canada.  Feel free to email your want
> list just in case.  Perhaps it will inspire the rest of us to do the same.
> Swapping stuff locally sure beats fighting Canadian Customs and the lousy
> US$ exchange rate.

Jerome Fine replies:

Since I am in Toronto, I find the situation similar.  On the other hand, since
I focus on DEC PDP-11 Qbus systems, I have found sufficient sources
over the years to put together enough of a system to meet most of my
requirements.  So I don't know about the non-DEC stuff, but I would
guess that California has more available.

If you ever have anything to swap, perhaps we could meet halfway.  I have
driven to Ottawa and back in one day and it is not a trip that I would want
to do again - but could if there was sufficient incentive.  But meeting halfway
if we had anything to trade would be quite acceptable.  Have you ever gone
through Tweed on your way to or from Toronto?

Sincerely yours,

Jerome Fine


From ahm at spies.com  Tue Oct 17 09:43:16 2000
From: ahm at spies.com (Andreas Meyer)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: AT&T 6300 PC
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001017083905.02475d80@binhost.com>; from Tarsi on Tue, Oct 17, 2000 at 08:41:02AM -0500
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001016220412.00c01790@binhost.com> <3.0.1.16.20001016220356.3cdfcfcc@mailhost.intellistar.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20001016195438.00b69f00@binhost.com> <4.3.2.7.0.20001016164741.02ecaee0@pc> <3.0.1.16.20001017084757.343f757e@mailhost.intellistar.net> <5.0.0.25.2.20001017083905.02475d80@binhost.com>
Message-ID: <20001017104316.D11430@spies.com>

Tarsi writes:
> The one thing I haven't figured out yet is how to get into the BIOS 
> settings...is it a keystroke or will I need to run a setup program 
> from a disk?

If I remember right, the 6300 is an XT-class machine 
and uses DIP switches on the motherboard for its settings.

Andy

From THETechnoid at home.com  Tue Oct 17 10:02:36 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: AT&T 6300 PC
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001017102739.0b3f88ea@mailhost.intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <20001017150320.ZZSM11792.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

The ATT 6300 was a nice box for the time.  The color monitor was really
something (if you had color).  It had graphics capability somewhere
between CGA and EGA for color and something close to a Hercules card for
mono.

There is no setup disk or rom bios settings for this machine.  Mostly that
came about with 286-class pc's. I've not yet seen an XT/PC class box with
chip-stored settings.  

You can probably format the hard disk by loading DEBUG from floppy and
entering the command:

"G=C800:5" - omit the quotes.

This command calls and executes a program on the hard disk controller
which will low-level the drive.  Make sure you know the geometry of the
drive before executing a low-level format as it will prompt you for them.
The controller will store your geometry on the first track of the hard
disk and pull from there just prior to booting from it.

The rom on that hard disk controller also handles the boot process.

I think the machine's isa buss is 8 bit.  You can graft an 8-bit ide
controller onto it if you like. I don't know a thing about any other
(proprietary) slots but it sounds like ATT to do something like that.

Regards,

Jeff

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From THETechnoid at home.com  Tue Oct 17 10:12:25 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: AT&T 6300 PC
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001017084757.343f757e@mailhost.intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <20001017150434.BOO11792.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

I think there is a complete machine and docs at Uptime Computer Services
in Asheville, NC.

828-252-4777

Ask for Bob.

Jeff

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From jfoust at threedee.com  Tue Oct 17 10:27:29 2000
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: Fate of Dejanews Usenet archive...
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001017102713.028fda00@pc>


http://www.zdnet.com/intweek/stories/news/0,4164,2640446,00.html

- John


From enrico.badella at softstar.it  Tue Oct 17 10:32:26 2000
From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: AT&T 6300 PC
References: <20001017150434.BOO11792.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>
Message-ID: <39EC710A.53FD05D3@softstar.it>



THETechnoid@home.com wrote:
> 
> I think there is a complete machine and docs at Uptime Computer Services
> in Asheville, NC.

The AT&T 6300 PC was a relabeled Olivetti M24 8086 based PC. Played digger
a lot on it many years ago. I have both the HW manual with schematics and 
BIOS listing. Saw quite a few at a dumpster near old Olivetti headquarters but
didn?t pick up any because I'm more a DEC person...

e.

========================================================================
Enrico Badella                       email:   enrico.badella@softstar.it
Soft*Star srl                                 eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it
InterNetworking Specialists          tel:     +39-011-746092            
Via Camburzano 9                     fax:     +39-011-746487
10143 Torino, Italy

  Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software,
  manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals
==========================================================================

From ncherry at home.net  Tue Oct 17 11:04:14 2000
From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: IDE on Qbus (was Re: Microvax II)
References: <200010162048.QAA25520@ultimate.com>
Message-ID: <39EC787E.9C038CEA@home.net>

Phil Budne wrote:
> 
> > Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 12:49:24 -0700 (PDT)
> > From: Ethan Dicks <ethan_dicks@yahoo.com>
> > ....
> > Has anyone designed a quick-n-dirty Qbus IDE adapter?
> 
> see ftp://digital.dp.ua/DEC/ata/
> 
>     Files there;
>     README.txt
>     waq.zip   - ATA/Q-bus adapter hardware description
>     wau.zip   - ATA/UNIBUS adapter hardware description
>     wart.zip  - Software for ATA HDD OS support (RT-11)
>     warsx.zip - Software for ATA HDD OS support (RSX-11M and RSX-11M-PLUS)
>     wavms.zip - Software for ATA HDD OS support (VAX/VMS)
> 
> 'twould be great if someone could spin some blank boards, (and a bulk
> order for parts)!!
> 
> My Qbus wish list;
> 
>     ATA disk interface
>     BOOT EPROM or Flash
>     Crystal CS8900 Ethernet
>     512KW SRAM
>     SuperIO (ie; WinBond)
>     or
>     NS16550A (or eqiv high-speed, deep FIFO) UART for networking/kermit
>     Floppy ctrlr (capable of driving Shugart 8", 5.25" 3")
> 
>     ISA Bridge

Very cool, I've got to check this out. I'm interested, lets see how much
time I have. I may even be able to convince work to purchase a few. :-)

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

From mmcfadden at cmh.edu  Tue Oct 17 11:59:06 2000
From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: Very large disk platters
Message-ID: <E7AC96207335D411B1E7009027FC284906BD25@EXCHANGE2>

In 1976 the University of Missouri picked up a early graphics display
system.  The heart of the system was a display controller which had a
vertically mounted hard disk in a cabinet the size of four 72" racks.  The
graphics controller was in another cabinet that was also four 72" racks in
size.  The cover over the disk slid apart and the platter was exposed.  The
platter was about 4-5 feet in diameter.  There was a vacuum pump to remove
the air when the system was closed up.  There was one head for each graphic
display, you could change images by switching tracks.  

Someday I'll see if I can find any pictures.

Mike
mmcfadden@cmh.edu

>From: Chuck McManis <cmcmanis@mcmanis.com>
>Subject: RE: Fleamarkets (was Re: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0))

>Fascinating, if it came from MIT is was probably part of the MIT 
>"Whirlwind" making it an extremely valuable artifact. Too bad you didn't 
>pick it up, I'm guessing it would fetch over $10K at auction.
>- --Chuck

>At 06:23 PM 10/16/2000 -0400, you wrote:

>FWIW there was what must've been a 30" disk platter
>      at the MIT Flea this weekend, mounted on its
>      center hub.  Never saw a disk larger than 14"
>      before.  Didn't get the manufacturer but the
>      price was $40.00 and the seller was Frank Fink.
>
>John A.


From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com  Tue Oct 17 12:03:06 2000
From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: Paging Anthony Eros
Message-ID: <F1539WXFOUz5cc8zk9Y00005e0d@hotmail.com>

I haven't heard from him either, I had e-mailed him asking for his address 
so I could loan him my "Computer Lab Workbook" for his DEC Computer Lab.. 
odd..

Will J
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.


From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Tue Oct 17 11:50:28 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
In-Reply-To: <39EC525D.13415.148AEBC0@localhost>
References: <20001015014327.28486.qmail@brouhaha.com>
 <39E73DAA.17145.B20F5F@localhost> (Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de)
Message-ID: <l03102800b612338a68d8@[192.168.1.4]>

>Vendors dumping Schtuff after VCF.
>Details still have to be developed.

Just don't make it so vendors dumpster stuff anyway, only some other
dumpster than a nice convient one.



From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Tue Oct 17 12:54:07 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: PCR 1000
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0010170101420.29648-100000@panix3.panix.com>
References: <008801c037db$dabe3d40$8d769a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <l03102806b6124221d81c@[192.168.1.4]>

>   Sorry for the off topic (sorta) stuff, folks...  but I didn't want
>anyone to be put off if they were considering the Icom PCR-1000 as an
>addition to their Toys. After a month of using it with a random
>long-wire, it is one of the better radios I've owned, and certainly the
>finest in the performance-to-size ratio department.

I looked at one at the WCES a couple years ago, extremely neat toy, nice to
know it also works. ;) Did you have any problem getting the software for
it, or was that included?



From harrison at timharrison.com  Tue Oct 17 12:26:08 2000
From: harrison at timharrison.com (Tim Harrison)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: NeXT MP3 player (was: Re: Dauphin DTR-1 running Ersatz-11)
References: <l0310280ab610e23e0b96@[129.162.151.33]>
Message-ID: <39EC8BB0.873CF3F3@timharrison.com>

Mark Tapley wrote:
 
> Tim wrote:
> 
> >Now, if only my NeXT could have handled the MP3s.  That would have been
> >much cooler.
> 
> http://www.this.net/~frank/download.html
> 
> and look at NXMP3Play. Frank Siegert, the author, claims only to be able to
> do 22 kHz on 25 MHz machines. I haven't used it, but it looks pretty cool.
>                                                         - Mark

Thanks, Mark.  I'll download this and give it a go.  I'll let you know
how it works on my Color Turbo 33Mhz.

-- 


Tim Harrison
Network Engineer
harrison@timharrison.com
http://www.networklevel.com/

From Anthony.Eros at compaq.com  Tue Oct 17 12:28:11 2000
From: Anthony.Eros at compaq.com (Eros, Anthony)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: Paging Anthony Eros
Message-ID: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F08BF0131@alfexc5.alf.dec.com>

I was out of town for a couple of weeks (limited e-mail access) but I'm back
now...

-- Tony

> ----------
> From: 	Will Jennings[SMTP:xds_sigma7@hotmail.com]
> Reply To: 	classiccmp@classiccmp.org
> Sent: 	Tuesday, October 17, 2000 1:03 PM
> To: 	classiccmp@classiccmp.org
> Subject: 	Re: Paging Anthony Eros
> 
> I haven't heard from him either, I had e-mailed him asking for his address
> 
> so I could loan him my "Computer Lab Workbook" for his DEC Computer Lab.. 
> odd..
> 
> Will J
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
> 
> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
> http://profiles.msn.com.
> 

From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org  Tue Oct 17 12:50:25 2000
From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: AT&T 6300 PC
In-Reply-To: <20001017150320.ZZSM11792.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>
 from "THETechnoid@home.com" at "Oct 17, 2000 11:02:36 am"
Message-ID: <200010171750.e9HHoQG03454@bg-tc-ppp145.monmouth.com>

> The ATT 6300 was a nice box for the time.  The color monitor was really
> something (if you had color).  It had graphics capability somewhere
> between CGA and EGA for color and something close to a Hercules card for
> mono.
> 
> There is no setup disk or rom bios settings for this machine.  Mostly that
> came about with 286-class pc's. I've not yet seen an XT/PC class box with
> chip-stored settings.  
> 
> You can probably format the hard disk by loading DEBUG from floppy and
> entering the command:
> 
> "G=C800:5" - omit the quotes.


It depends -- the DTC cards may have been G=c800:ccc
The AT&T had the hard disk parameters and disk controller stuff in the
main bios rom.  The 1.43 could support the AT&T standard DTC controller
and the WD1002 and the later RLL varient.

> 
> This command calls and executes a program on the hard disk controller
> which will low-level the drive.  Make sure you know the geometry of the
> drive before executing a low-level format as it will prompt you for them.
> The controller will store your geometry on the first track of the hard
> disk and pull from there just prior to booting from it.

The AT&T only supported certain geometries in their bios (they disabled 
the hard disk controller's bios rom in most machines).

Some of us who retrofitted the hard disks had to upgrade the ROM's to
the 1.43.

> 
> I think the machine's isa buss is 8 bit.  You can graft an 8-bit ide
> controller onto it if you like. I don't know a thing about any other
> (proprietary) slots but it sounds like ATT to do something like that.
> 

The Olivetti/AT&T/Xerox machine had 16 bit and 8 bit slots.  The 16 bit
are Pre-AT.  They also handled the byte order differently so there were
other issues.

With a V30 CPU replacing the 8086 they smoked all the XT clones for
performance.  They also could be retrofit for EGA or VGA graphics
if you had the right modifications.

They also had an on-board clock that was fed by a NICAD and AT&T's OS
had support for reading the clock at boot time like an AT.  They did the
code for this in Juniper Plaza in  Freehold, NJ five blocks from 
my old house.

However, they did a write back to it at boot time which cost the 
content of the seconds register.

In a day of serious debugging I lost 30 minutes due to reboots.

They also forgot much of what they did -- support told me the
motherboard needed to be swapped and that AT&T didn't do the bios code.

This caused AT&T to replace the motherboard.  I went through the code with
debug and found where the code was done and changed the write to a
second read (to not change the number of bytes)... This eliminated the
problem.  I told this to AT&T hw support -- which was swamped with
motherboard requests after they rolled out the v3.2 dos (which supported
disks with partitions over 20 mb -- in a non-standard pre-dos-3.3 way.)

They were very happy to hear about the clock.

I don't know if there was any official fix.

--Bill

-- 
bpechter@monmouth.com    | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10  
                         | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2
                         | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour 

From bills at adrenaline.com  Tue Oct 17 12:46:24 2000
From: bills at adrenaline.com (Bill Sudbrink)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: Paging Anthony Eros
In-Reply-To: <F1539WXFOUz5cc8zk9Y00005e0d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBKAPCFMFEHMEIOCIKAELGCCAA.bills@adrenaline.com>

> I haven't heard from him either, I had e-mailed him asking for 
> his address so I could loan him my "Computer Lab Workbook" for
> his DEC Computer Lab.. 
> odd..

I made him an offer on one out of the group that he located...
He never replied to me either.  His last classiccmp posting
was 9/14/00, apologizing for posting the binary image attached
to his message.


From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com  Tue Oct 17 12:57:37 2000
From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: MS Laugh-In
In-Reply-To: <200010171750.e9HHoQG03454@bg-tc-ppp145.monmouth.com>
Message-ID: <000801c03863$bd46b7a0$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>


Excuse me for an off-topic but I'm an NT/Win
developer by day just finishine a reboot and
this rant just came to me:

            "Windows Me"

  is that the year 2000 version of saying

         "Its SockItToMe Time"


Let Me have it!
John A.

From tarsi at binhost.com  Tue Oct 17 13:19:50 2000
From: tarsi at binhost.com (Tarsi)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: AT&T 6300 PC
In-Reply-To: <200010171750.e9HHoQG03454@bg-tc-ppp145.monmouth.com>
References: <20001017150320.ZZSM11792.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001017131728.0248ba00@binhost.com>


>The AT&T only supported certain geometries in their bios (they disabled
>the hard disk controller's bios rom in most machines).
>
>Some of us who retrofitted the hard disks had to upgrade the ROM's to
>the 1.43.

Ok, all this talk of hard disks on the ATT, I have a question, perhaps 
someone has some insight:

When I boot my AT&T 6300, most of the time it finds the hard disk but then 
returns a "ROM BASIC not found:  Press Reset to restart."  or something 
similar.  About one time in 10 does it actually find the hard drive.  When 
it does, it boots merrily from it.

What's up?  Bad HD?  How would I find the geometry of the disk (if I wanted 
to reformat it) if it doesn't say it somewhere?  It is, if I remember right 
(I'm at work, have to look when I get home) an STS-232 drive.

Tarsi
210


From transit at lerctr.org  Tue Oct 17 13:26:25 2000
From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: Low-level format (was: Re: AT&T 6300 PC
In-Reply-To: <20001017150320.ZZSM11792.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>
Message-ID: <Pine.SV4.3.96.001017131459.14396A-100000@lerami.lerctr.org>



On Tue, 17 Oct 2000 THETechnoid@home.com wrote:

> You can probably format the hard disk by loading DEBUG from floppy and
> entering the command:
> 
> "G=C800:5" - omit the quotes.

Can you damage a hard drive, if you put in the wrong numbers (# of
cylinders, interleave, etc)

I had an old 8088 that hadn't seen action in several years. I turned
it on, and it seemed to boot up and run ok, but the hard drive was full
of errors.

I thought, "Maybe a low level format will clean it up", as I had done one
a few years back on an old Leading Edge XT, and it seemed to help. So off
to Debug, and I did the G=C800:5 thing.

Of course, it asked for the number of cylinders, interleave, and a couple
of other things. Not knowing....I guessed!

After that I rebooted the computer---and---nothing! Not a peep out
of the hard drive, and the computer wouldn't start up. It would boot
off a floppy, but even then, the hard drive was unreadable...




From foo at siconic.com  Tue Oct 17 12:28:49 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: AT&T 6300 PC
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001016220356.3cdfcfcc@mailhost.intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010171027460.12206-100000@siconic.com>


I have several Voice Power cards for this computer.  They are one port
voice processing cards that enabled you to turn your PC into either an
answering machine or an auto-attendant/voicemail.  I haven't played with
these at all but I plan to at some point.

I guess I'm looking for drivers or software that run with them.

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Tue Oct 17 13:44:35 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: Fate of Dejanews Usenet archive...
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB20E@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>

> 
> http://www.zdnet.com/intweek/stories/news/0,4164,2640446,00.html
> 

DejaNews has been basically useless to me since they re-hosted
everything, leaving out the USENET traffic pre-May 1999.

What really sucks about that, once upon a time, many sites
would keep archives of old USENET news traffic, usually
the ones that had a lot of following at that site, or,
groups which may have originated there.

But when DejaNews started up, many of my favorite newsgroups
lost their previous archival home, stopped archiving the feed,
and just let DejaNews handle it. At first, that seemed pretty
cool, but now...

Now, an unimagineable amount of message traffic, much of it
having serious potential research use, is gone.

Meanwhile, people like Larry Ellison are trying to convince
us that we don't need mass storage in our personal computers,
Hell, that we don't even need personal computers at all.

All we need is their web applicance.

Yeah, right...

-dq

From foo at siconic.com  Tue Oct 17 12:52:16 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: Who collects (reads the mailing list...?) vintage computers i
 n           Quebec, Canada?
In-Reply-To: <39EC6365.680CDDC3@idirect.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010171050230.12206-100000@siconic.com>

On Tue, 17 Oct 2000, Jerome Fine wrote:

> Since I am in Toronto, I find the situation similar.  On the other hand, since
> I focus on DEC PDP-11 Qbus systems, I have found sufficient sources
> over the years to put together enough of a system to meet most of my
> requirements.  So I don't know about the non-DEC stuff, but I would
> guess that California has more available.

I don't know why everyone keeps referencing California as the land of
bountiful classic computers where Altairs are picked off trees.

In fact, nothing could be further from the truth.  We've already collected
everything over here.  There's nothing left.

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From liste at artware.qc.ca  Tue Oct 17 14:01:41 2000
From: liste at artware.qc.ca (liste@artware.qc.ca)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: Speaking of cubes
In-Reply-To: <39E8ACF7.E58BE24E@home.net>
Message-ID: <XFMail.20001017150141.liste@artware.qc.ca>


On 14-Oct-2000 Neil Cherry wrote:

> MS out I'll use Netscape as an example: Do we need to have our
> mail program part of the Browser? The recent Mozilla release (18) looks
> wonderful but cause Linux to swap like mad on a 64M box. 

If you downloaded a binary distribution, it contains copious debuging
information.  Recompile it without debugging info to get a more accurate
idea of the bloat.

-Philip


From foo at siconic.com  Tue Oct 17 13:09:47 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: MS Laugh-In
In-Reply-To: <000801c03863$bd46b7a0$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010171109130.12206-100000@siconic.com>

On Tue, 17 Oct 2000, John Allain wrote:

> Excuse me for an off-topic but I'm an NT/Win
> developer by day just finishine a reboot and
> this rant just came to me:
> 
>             "Windows Me"
> 
>   is that the year 2000 version of saying
> 
>          "Its SockItToMe Time"
> 
> 
> Let Me have it!

This message is further evidence that using Microsoft products can be
harmful to your brain.

:)

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From jfoust at threedee.com  Tue Oct 17 14:17:47 2000
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: Fate of Dejanews Usenet archive...
In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB20E@tegntserver.tegjeff
 .com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001017141024.00e12950@pc>

At 02:44 PM 10/17/00 -0400, Douglas Quebbeman wrote:
>Now, an unimagineable amount of message traffic, much of it
>having serious potential research use, is gone.

This site says the approximately 16 million postings from
October 1996 to late 1998 consumes 592 gigabytes:

http://www.archive.org/collections/index.html#Usenet

but of course earlier posts are much less space.

http://communication.ucsd.edu/A-News/index.html has May 1981-1982.

With 30 gig drives at less than $200...

- John

 From Feb 11 2000 on this list:

Several times in the past I've ranted to this list about my hope 
for a more ancient version of DejaNews, a web archive of old
Usenet posts.  Below is an e-mail I received from someone who
has the start of an archive.  He's searching for more volunteers
for the project.  I think this would be a tremendous resource
for classic computer collectors and historians.

- John

To: John Foust <jfoust@threedee.com>
Subject: Re: Old usenet news? 
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
X-Mailer: MH-E (emacs20)
X-Url: http://dsl.org/
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 13:16:57 -0500
Sender: m@dsl.org

Been thinking about a potential Usenet archive restoration project
lately, how such a project might work.

I don't think it's a one-man job -- too many people are probably going
to have different ideas on how to store it, availability, interface,
etc.

This is what I think needs to happen:

- there needs to be some kind of public discussion area for the
project (like a newsgroup or mailing list)

- a repository needs to be put in place, where people can send their
archives. any size would probably be good enough to begin with, even a
few gigs. hard drives are cheap now and it shouldn't be too difficult
for someone to be able to get at least 10gb, which i think should be
enough to at least begin assembling some of the old years, and
whatever misc. stuff from pre-95 that people have?

While I'm very interested in this, I don't have time to oversee or
coordinate it. (I assume that you don't, either?)

However, I've been assembling what notes I can -- URLs of known
archives, addresses of interested people, related threads. I've begun
putting all this together in html and plan on putting it on the web,
just to make a convergence point for likeminded individuals -- maybe
it might provide the impetus for someone else to begin such a project?

Or at least get the attention of someone who has a 20gb hard drive on
some ftp box at some university or organization somewhere, where some
of the old archives could begin to be reassembled? (I'd think such a
restoration project would make a great research project for someone,
maybe?) 

As I think I mentioned before, I've got some archives from specific
groups, and a lot of old threads and even single articles saved. If there
was a coordinator and a system in place (even 1gb to start? or a box
with access to a cd-burner or some other removeable media?), I bet a
post to slashdot would draw in hundreds of people like me, or more,
with their old archives.


m

P.S. On a related note, I'd like to see an open-source replacement for
imdb.com happen, but again it's not a project I can take on right now. 



From lgwalker at look.ca  Tue Oct 17 14:32:56 2000
From: lgwalker at look.ca (Lawrence Walker)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: mac serial pinouts
In-Reply-To: <XFMail.20001016184418.gwynp@artware.qc.ca>
References: <l03102802b6028963c28c@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <39EC7128.10041.481A667@localhost>



> 
> On 05-Oct-2000 Mike Ford wrote:
> >>Can anyone tell me which pins (and I don't know the numbering
> >>scheme, so please include that) are transmit, receive, and gnd on a
> >>Mac 8-pin mini-din port?
> > 
> > This apparently from the Zterm 0.9 manual
> 
> *snip*
> 
> I'm looking for the reverse of this.  I have a Worldport with a
> mini-din plug that I want to connect to a friend's wintel portable.  I
> managed to get a 3 wire protocol (RX, TX, GND) going, so I can "AT"
> the modem and get "OK" back.  But if I dial an ISP, I'll get "CONNECT
> 12345" (don't recall the speed) and then nothing.  I suspect it's
> waiting for some handshaking from the computer but I haven't had the
> time/skill to investigate further.
> 
> I don't have (and haven't found) proper documenation for the modem. 
> Maybe there exists an ATSx=y code or extended command would deactivate
> the handshaking while connected.
> 
> Anyone have a clue?
> 
> -Philip
> 
 This sounds similiar to the problems I had using a non-hi-speed 
cable with my modem on a Mac. Look at the earlier msgs. in this 
thread and Tony D.'s comments.

ciao		larry


Reply to:
lgwalker@look.ca

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Tue Oct 17 14:45:46 2000
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: Who collects (reads the mailing list...?) vintage computers i
 n           Quebec, Canada?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010171050230.12206-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010171245230.5818-100000@war.deltasoft.com>

> bountiful classic computers where Altairs are picked off trees.
> 
Hey - you suppose I could have some seeds for that tree? *ducks*

g.



From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 17 14:58:58 2000
From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: VAX Ethernet (was Re: IDE on Qbus (was Re: Microvax II))
Message-ID: <20001017195858.81544.qmail@web9502.mail.yahoo.com>


--- ajp166 <ajp166@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
> >    Crystal CS8900 Ethernet
> 
> DELQA

What are DELQAs going for these days?  All I have is a DEQNA.  :-(

Also, are there any VAXBI experts out there?  I have a DEBNT that did
not come in my machine and I need some help with installing it (where
the cab kit plugs into the I/O section of the VAXBI bus, especially)

-ethan


=====
Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to
vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com

The original webpage address is still going away.  The 
permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/

See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf!  It's FREE.
http://im.yahoo.com/

From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Tue Oct 17 15:32:47 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: NEC APC available
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010161637170.10991-100000@siconic.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.0.20001016170120.029bec70@pc>
Message-ID: <l03102808b61266706409@[192.168.1.4]>

>> And who pays for all those Windows licenses?
>
>I assume Bill Gates.  He's a charitable guy.  I'm sure he's willing to
>look the other way for charity.

Since MS had a death grip on every branded PC sold in the last decade, its
fair to assume the original purchaser paid for the license, and even
requires that it goes with the bundled hardware.

Hah! the local GoodWill computer store got nailed last year and now must
buy a copy of windows for EVERY PC they sell.

Speaking of Windows etc., how do I extract the serial number from a PC with
W95 running on it? I want to have it in case something screws up and I need
to reinstall, plus I would like to change the registered owner from Biology
Dept to me or some such.



From transit at lerctr.org  Tue Oct 17 15:41:28 2000
From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: NEC APC available
In-Reply-To: <l03102808b61266706409@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SV4.3.96.001017154104.23096A-100000@lerami.lerctr.org>



On Tue, 17 Oct 2000, Mike Ford wrote:

> Hah! the local GoodWill computer store got nailed last year and now must
> buy a copy of windows for EVERY PC they sell.

Gee, even a Mac?


From donm at cts.com  Tue Oct 17 15:45:43 2000
From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: AT&T 6300 PC
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001017131728.0248ba00@binhost.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SCO.4.20.0010171343551.9510-100000@crash.cts.com>



On Tue, 17 Oct 2000, Tarsi wrote:

> 
> >The AT&T only supported certain geometries in their bios (they disabled
> >the hard disk controller's bios rom in most machines).
> >
> >Some of us who retrofitted the hard disks had to upgrade the ROM's to
> >the 1.43.
> 
> Ok, all this talk of hard disks on the ATT, I have a question, perhaps 
> someone has some insight:
> 
> When I boot my AT&T 6300, most of the time it finds the hard disk but then 
> returns a "ROM BASIC not found:  Press Reset to restart."  or something 
> similar.  About one time in 10 does it actually find the hard drive.  When 
> it does, it boots merrily from it.
> 
> What's up?  Bad HD?  How would I find the geometry of the disk (if I wanted 
> to reformat it) if it doesn't say it somewhere?  It is, if I remember right 
> (I'm at work, have to look when I get home) an STS-232 drive.

There is a good possibility that you can find it at: 

		    http://theref.aquascape.com

						 - don

 
> Tarsi
> 210
> 
> 


From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Tue Oct 17 15:49:09 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: Fate of Dejanews Usenet archive...
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB210@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>

> At 02:44 PM 10/17/00 -0400, Douglas Quebbeman wrote:
> >Now, an unimagineable amount of message traffic, much of it
> >having serious potential research use, is gone.
> 
> This site says the approximately 16 million postings from
> October 1996 to late 1998 consumes 592 gigabytes:
> 
> http://www.archive.org/collections/index.html#Usenet

Well, that's hopeful...

> but of course earlier posts are much less space.
> 
> http://communication.ucsd.edu/A-News/index.html has May 1981-1982.

Of course, in those days, a lot of message traffic was on 
The Source and CompuServe (didn't The Source grow from what
used to be called MicroNet?). Then later ('85-???), there was
also BIX (Byte Information eXchange).

I Miss BIX!

> With 30 gig drives at less than $200...

Our firm is looking at optical NAS/SAN in ranges from about
300GB to 1.24TB, but I doubt we'll be able to help host these
archives...'   

:-)

-dq

From donm at cts.com  Tue Oct 17 15:50:25 2000
From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: Low-level format (was: Re: AT&T 6300 PC
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SV4.3.96.001017131459.14396A-100000@lerami.lerctr.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.SCO.4.20.0010171346330.9510-100000@crash.cts.com>



On Tue, 17 Oct 2000, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote:

> 
> 
> On Tue, 17 Oct 2000 THETechnoid@home.com wrote:
> 
> > You can probably format the hard disk by loading DEBUG from floppy and
> > entering the command:
> > 
> > "G=C800:5" - omit the quotes.
> 
> Can you damage a hard drive, if you put in the wrong numbers (# of
> cylinders, interleave, etc)

I think your chances of physically damaging an old HD as used on XT
class machines that way is rather slim.  That said, the wrong figures
for CHT stuff will certainly render it unreadable.  

You did, of course, do FDISK and FORMAT after the Low-Level, I presume. 

						 - don
 
> I had an old 8088 that hadn't seen action in several years. I turned
> it on, and it seemed to boot up and run ok, but the hard drive was full
> of errors.
> 
> I thought, "Maybe a low level format will clean it up", as I had done one
> a few years back on an old Leading Edge XT, and it seemed to help. So off
> to Debug, and I did the G=C800:5 thing.
> 
> Of course, it asked for the number of cylinders, interleave, and a couple
> of other things. Not knowing....I guessed!
> 
> After that I rebooted the computer---and---nothing! Not a peep out
> of the hard drive, and the computer wouldn't start up. It would boot
> off a floppy, but even then, the hard drive was unreadable...
> 
> 
> 
> 


From tarsi at binhost.com  Tue Oct 17 15:53:59 2000
From: tarsi at binhost.com (Tarsi)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: NEC APC available
In-Reply-To: <l03102808b61266706409@[192.168.1.4]>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010161637170.10991-100000@siconic.com>
 <4.3.2.7.0.20001016170120.029bec70@pc>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001017155158.0248d2c0@binhost.com>


>
>Speaking of Windows etc., how do I extract the serial number from a PC with
>W95 running on it? I want to have it in case something screws up and I need
>to reinstall, plus I would like to change the registered owner from Biology
>Dept to me or some such.

Usually listed in the System control panel on the first General tab.  If 
not, listed in the registry under:

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\ProductID

Same location, is RegisteredOwner which you can change. :)

Tarsi
210



From healyzh at aracnet.com  Tue Oct 17 15:52:31 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: Fate of Dejanews Usenet archive...
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20001017102713.028fda00@pc> from "John Foust" at Oct 17, 2000 10:27:29 AM
Message-ID: <200010172052.NAA03879@shell1.aracnet.com>

> http://www.zdnet.com/intweek/stories/news/0,4164,2640446,00.html
> 
> - John
> 

That's more than a little disturbing.  As far as I'm concerned DejaNews is
the single most valuable source of information on the Internet.  Although
since the Lobotomy it's less valuable.  It looks like they learned their
lesson a little to late.  I like how the article seems to indicate that it's
only the USENET portion of their site that has value.

One of the feedback comments mention that the Library of Congress should buy
it.  Somehow that would be one of the best uses of tax dollars I've heard in
a long time!

			Zane

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Oct 17 16:05:44 2000
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: MS Laugh-In
In-Reply-To: <000801c03863$bd46b7a0$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010171404130.24594-100000@lanshark.lanminds.com>

Has WINDOWS become a verb?
If so, then it may be time to Windows certain MICROS~1 programmers with a
large LART.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred        cisin@xenosoft.com


On Tue, 17 Oct 2000, John Allain wrote:
> Excuse me for an off-topic but I'm an NT/Win
> developer by day just finishine a reboot and
> this rant just came to me:
> 
>             "Windows Me"
> 
>   is that the year 2000 version of saying
> 
>          "Its SockItToMe Time"
> 
> 
> Let Me have it!
> John A.


From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org  Tue Oct 17 16:29:36 2000
From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: Remember old Compuserve
In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB210@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>
 from Douglas Quebbeman at "Oct 17, 2000 04:49:09 pm"
Message-ID: <200010172129.e9HLTa204059@bg-tc-ppp380.monmouth.com>

> Of course, in those days, a lot of message traffic was on 
> The Source and CompuServe (didn't The Source grow from what
> used to be called MicroNet?). Then later ('85-???), there was
> also BIX (Byte Information eXchange).
> 
> I Miss BIX!
> 
> :-)
> 
> -dq
> 
MicroNet-->CompuServe--> CompuServe2000 (a Part of AOL) 8-(

I miss CompuServe's PDP11 and Vax Sig.

I had a pretty good hoax/rumor going there about 1984/5
about Free DEC Employee MicroVaxII's with Stu Fuller of the Vaxsig.

You see... DEC glued dead uVaxII chip silicon to the annual report.
(Which employees got slightly ahead of some other stockholders...)

Boy did people offer me a lot for my uVaxII (which was pretty much back
ordered everywhere).

Bill
-- 
bpechter@monmouth.com    | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10  
                         | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2
                         | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour 

From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Tue Oct 17 17:18:12 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: Intel SDK-85 and SDK-86
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001017171812.33efc3ae@mailhost.intellistar.net>

   I have a pair of these that I picked up a while back. Does anyone have
the docs for them?  Can someone tell me what kind of ICs are supposed to be
in sockets A17 and A24 on the SDK-86 board. The ones on mine are missing.

   Joe

From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Tue Oct 17 17:20:57 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: INtel MCS-86
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001017172057.33efc92a@mailhost.intellistar.net>

   Does anyone have docs for one of these? I have the kit but no docs.

     Joe


From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Tue Oct 17 22:20:57 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: INtel MCS-86
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001017222057.331f6d5e@mailhost.intellistar.net>

   Does anyone have docs for one of these? I have the kit but no docs.

     Joe


From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org  Tue Oct 17 16:34:40 2000
From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: AT&T 6300 PC
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SCO.4.20.0010171343551.9510-100000@crash.cts.com> from Don
 Maslin at "Oct 17, 2000 01:45:43 pm"
Message-ID: <200010172134.e9HLYeq04129@bg-tc-ppp380.monmouth.com>

> 
> 
> > (I'm at work, have to look when I get home) an STS-232 drive.
> 
> There is a good possibility that you can find it at: 
> 
> 		    http://theref.aquascape.com
> 
> 						 - don
> 
>  

Probably a Seagate ST-232...a 612 heads (sometimes documented as 615 or
616) 4 heads sectors (depends on controller and if you're doing wierd
stuff).

Sectors are usually 15/trk.

I've got a couple of Perstor Controllers that get 31 sectors and almost
double the 20 meg to 40.

Bill

-- 
bpechter@monmouth.com    | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10  
                         | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2
                         | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour 

From jfoust at threedee.com  Tue Oct 17 16:28:40 2000
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: Remember old Compuserve
In-Reply-To: <200010172129.e9HLTa204059@bg-tc-ppp380.monmouth.com>
References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB210@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001017162447.029def00@pc>

At 05:29 PM 10/17/00 -0400, Bill Pechter wrote:
>I miss CompuServe's PDP11 and Vax Sig.

After years of fighting anyone who attempted to redistribute
the messages from their forums and libraries, I would guess
that Compuserve or the new owners never kept or maintained
backups of all that valuable or at least historically 
interesting data.  If you want another windmill to tilt at,
try to find those nine-tracks...

I have gobs of old floppies where I meticulously archived
each of my vanilla-interface Compuserve sessions from 1985 
until 1995 or so, but to conserve space I even edited them 
as I read them, and they're mixed with my private e-mail 
messages.

- John


From donm at cts.com  Tue Oct 17 16:47:00 2000
From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: AT&T 6300 PC
In-Reply-To: <200010172134.e9HLYeq04129@bg-tc-ppp380.monmouth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SCO.4.20.0010171445120.2336-100000@crash.cts.com>



On Tue, 17 Oct 2000, Bill Pechter wrote:

> > 
> > 
> > > (I'm at work, have to look when I get home) an STS-232 drive.
> > 
> > There is a good possibility that you can find it at: 
> > 
> > 		    http://theref.aquascape.com
> > 
> > 						 - don
> > 
> >  
> 
> Probably a Seagate ST-232...a 612 heads (sometimes documented as 615 or
> 616) 4 heads sectors (depends on controller and if you're doing wierd
> stuff).
> 
> Sectors are usually 15/trk.

Bill, where did you come up with that model?  I can find no record of
it, anywhere!  And isn't it usually 17 spt? 

						 - don
 
> I've got a couple of Perstor Controllers that get 31 sectors and almost
> double the 20 meg to 40.
> 
> Bill
> 
> -- 
> bpechter@monmouth.com    | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10  
>                          | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2
>                          | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour 
> 


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Oct 17 13:24:08 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: AT&T 6300 PC
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001017083905.02475d80@binhost.com> from "Tarsi" at Oct 17, 0 08:41:02 am
Message-ID: <m13lbPH-000IyQC@p850ug1>

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From KFergason at aol.com  Tue Oct 17 16:56:52 2000
From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: Who collects (reads the mailing list...?) vintage computers i n           Quebec, Canada?
Message-ID: <af.1ec5a06.271e2525@aol.com>


You could always look for Johnny Altairseed...

<ducks and runs....>


In a message dated Tue, 17 Oct 2000  4:02:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Gene 
Buckle <geneb@deltasoft.com> writes:

<< > bountiful classic computers where Altairs are picked off trees.
> 
Hey - you suppose I could have some seeds for that tree? *ducks*

g.


 >>



From geneb at deltasoft.com  Tue Oct 17 17:19:07 2000
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: Who collects (reads the mailing list...?) vintage computers i
 n           Quebec, Canada?
In-Reply-To: <af.1ec5a06.271e2525@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010171518170.5913-100000@war.deltasoft.com>


Ouch.  You're not supposed to reap between the lines....*dives for cover*
> 
> You could always look for Johnny Altairseed...
> 
> <ducks and runs....>
> 
> 
> In a message dated Tue, 17 Oct 2000  4:02:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Gene 
> Buckle <geneb@deltasoft.com> writes:
> 
> << > bountiful classic computers where Altairs are picked off trees.
> > 
> Hey - you suppose I could have some seeds for that tree? *ducks*
> 
> g.
> 
> 
>  >>
> 
> 
> 


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Oct 17 16:57:13 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: Intel SDK-85 and SDK-86
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001017171812.33efc3ae@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Oct 17, 0 05:18:12 pm
Message-ID: <m13lejV-000IyHC@p850ug1>

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From THETechnoid at home.com  Tue Oct 17 17:56:32 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:00 2005
Subject: AT&T 6300 PC
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001017131728.0248ba00@binhost.com>
Message-ID: <20001017225158.YBSK11792.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

I think you probably have a Seagate ST-225 20mb hard disk.  Geometry is
620cyl, 4 heads, 17 sectors per track.

It sounds like you have trouble with the drive or controller.  The 'Rom
Basic not found' message is in place in most PC roms because clones don't
ship with basic in rom any more.  The original PC would, if a way to boot
was not found, drop into rom basic just like many other early home
computers like the Atari and Commodore.

Even though the Basic roms are not there, I think the Bios manufacturer
had to keep the vector alive for compatability reasons.

You might try low-leveling that older hard disk.  Older Seagates are
nearly bulletproof.  A  low-level format might help rejuvinate it.


In <5.0.0.25.2.20001017131728.0248ba00@binhost.com>, on 10/17/00 
   at 06:56 PM, Tarsi <tarsi@binhost.com> said:


>>The AT&T only supported certain geometries in their bios (they disabled
>>the hard disk controller's bios rom in most machines).
>>
>>Some of us who retrofitted the hard disks had to upgrade the ROM's to
>>the 1.43.

>Ok, all this talk of hard disks on the ATT, I have a question, perhaps 
>someone has some insight:

>When I boot my AT&T 6300, most of the time it finds the hard disk but
>then  returns a "ROM BASIC not found:  Press Reset to restart."  or
>something  similar.  About one time in 10 does it actually find the hard
>drive.  When  it does, it boots merrily from it.

>What's up?  Bad HD?  How would I find the geometry of the disk (if I
>wanted  to reformat it) if it doesn't say it somewhere?  It is, if I
>remember right  (I'm at work, have to look when I get home) an STS-232
>drive.

>Tarsi
>210


-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From nabil at SpiritOne.com  Tue Oct 17 18:14:09 2000
From: nabil at SpiritOne.com (Aaron Nabil)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
In-Reply-To: <l03102800b612338a68d8@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.21.0010171613190.18021-100000@ridge.spiritone.com>

On Tue, 17 Oct 2000, Mike Ford wrote:
> >Vendors dumping Schtuff after VCF.
> >Details still have to be developed.
> 
> Just don't make it so vendors dumpster stuff anyway, only some other
> dumpster than a nice convient one.

I wasn't there, but I take it that some vendors dumped stuff they couldn't
sell?  What is the problem with that?


--
Aaron Nabil


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Tue Oct 17 18:34:12 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: MS Laugh-In
Message-ID: <006d01c03893$101ba8d0$d1759a8d@ajp166>

>this rant just came to me:
>
>            "Windows Me"
>


Rant #n+1   Win98 was supposed to be the end of the line with W2000
being the replacer... then it was Win98se  now win98me (yes it's w98!).
I take it the market doesn't yet trust W2000 and SP3 will be a while yet.

Allison


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Tue Oct 17 18:27:05 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: VAX Ethernet (was Re: IDE on Qbus (was Re: Microvax II))
Message-ID: <006c01c03893$0f136090$d1759a8d@ajp166>

From: Ethan Dicks <ethan_dicks@yahoo.com>
>>
>> DELQA
>
>What are DELQAs going for these days?  All I have is a DEQNA.  :-(


Cheap as far as I know.  The key thing is despite claims if the DEQNA
you have is working, whats the rush to dump it.  If it's the only one you
have then find a spare and prefered is DELQA, but take any DEQNAs
you can get from free or nearly so.

Allison



From richard at idcomm.com  Tue Oct 17 18:37:36 2000
From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: Who collects (reads the mailing list...?) vintage computers in           Quebec, Canada?
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010171518170.5913-100000@war.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <002c01c03893$3bdf1ec0$0500fea9@winbook>

You're pretty nimble, there, Gene!  All that ducking and all that running .
. . you must be in good shape!

Dick

----- Original Message -----
From: Gene Buckle <geneb@deltasoft.com>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2000 4:19 PM
Subject: Re: Who collects (reads the mailing list...?) vintage computers in
Quebec, Canada?


>
> Ouch.  You're not supposed to reap between the lines....*dives for cover*
> >
> > You could always look for Johnny Altairseed...
> >
> > <ducks and runs....>
> >
> >
> > In a message dated Tue, 17 Oct 2000  4:02:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Gene
> > Buckle <geneb@deltasoft.com> writes:
> >
> > << > bountiful classic computers where Altairs are picked off trees.
> > >
> > Hey - you suppose I could have some seeds for that tree? *ducks*
> >
> > g.
> >
> >
> >  >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>


From foo at siconic.com  Tue Oct 17 17:36:17 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.21.0010171613190.18021-100000@ridge.spiritone.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010171531030.12678-100000@siconic.com>

On Tue, 17 Oct 2000, Aaron Nabil wrote:

> On Tue, 17 Oct 2000, Mike Ford wrote:
> > >Vendors dumping Schtuff after VCF.
> > >Details still have to be developed.
> > 
> > Just don't make it so vendors dumpster stuff anyway, only some other
> > dumpster than a nice convient one.
> 
> I wasn't there, but I take it that some vendors dumped stuff they couldn't
> sell?  What is the problem with that?

Well, personally, I think it demonstrates poor character (the mentality is
"if no one will give me money for this then I'm not going to give it away
either"...basically like the type of people who would rather scrap
something than sell it for less than they think it's worth) but that's
just my opinion.

However, since in this case I get to call the shots, I won't allow this to
happen at the VCF.  It happened this year and last because I didn't have a
policy about it and I didn't know it was happening until this year.

>From now on, I'd like the vendors to leave with what they bring, or if
they choose to leave it behind, it will have to be made free, first-come,
first-served.  However, finding a way to enforce this that won't tick off
a vendor will require some thought.

I brought a bunch of Apple //e systems to sell and only managed to hawk
one.  I didn't want to go home with the rest of them, and I certainly
didn't want to trash them, so I yelled "FREE APPLE //E SYSTEMS!!!" and a
few people came running.  Problem solved :)

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Tue Oct 17 18:37:22 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: R.F. Interference (Was 48V)
Message-ID: <009801c03894$79c2d1e0$d1759a8d@ajp166>

From: John Lawson <jpl15@panix.com>


>  It appears you have left off a '0' in the model number and looked up
the
>"lite" (read: mostly useless), albeit cheaper, version of the radio.
>[PCR-100] The PCR-1000 has all common modes, filters from 500htz ->
>500KHtz, and SSB sens [10dB S/N @ 2.8Khtz] from .56uV in the lowest
>octaves to .25uV in the UHF ranges; FM [12dB SINAD @ 15KHtz] .5uV down
to
>.32uV.


That is a bit more useful perfomance to my kind of thinking... Of course,
 how may kilobucks?  Surprize me. ;)

Allison





From ncherry at home.net  Tue Oct 17 18:41:47 2000
From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: Vax Station 3100
Message-ID: <39ECE3BB.FE5290A3@home.net>

I just got my VS3100 and it has no drive (I expected that). It has a part
number of PM20A-AB. It has ~16M of RAM, a Video ram sim and nothing else.
What do I have? What RAM can this beast take? How large a drive can it take?

The only other marking are BA42A and CPU KN01.

Thanks

PS
This beast will be the drives for my Microvax ii until I get an IDE
card in it.

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

From zmerch at 30below.com  Tue Oct 17 18:58:12 2000
From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: OT: Re: MS Laugh-In
In-Reply-To: <006d01c03893$101ba8d0$d1759a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20001017195812.00fde2a8@mail.30below.com>

Rumor has it that ajp166 may have mentioned these words:
>>this rant just came to me:
>>
>>            "Windows Me"

>Rant #n+1   Win98 was supposed to be the end of the line with W2000
>being the replacer... then it was Win98se  now win98me (yes it's w98!).
>I take it the market doesn't yet trust W2000 and SP3 will be a while yet.
>
>Allison

No... Win2k doesn't play all the games yet...

Just my personal observation...

"Merch"
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger   ---   sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
Recycling is good, right???  Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig.

If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead
disarmament should *not* be your first career choice.

From THETechnoid at home.com  Tue Oct 17 18:00:48 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: Bulletproof hard disks
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001017172057.33efc92a@mailhost.intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <20001018002341.BSCS23659.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

In an earlier message I stated that older Seagate (5.25") drives are
nearly bulletproof.  I said NEARLY because they do not stop bullets. I
know.

My brother Mike and I used to take dead hard disks out to the 'informal'
fireing range in South Miami.  An St4096 will not stop a 30 caliber rifle
bullet but does stop 9mm pistol ammo. Range was something like 25meters
from the target drive. An ST225 will not stop any bullet larger than .22
long rifle it seems.  Fewer platters makes for less armor.

We generally placed the drive on it's faceplate with the board facing
toward or away from the shooter - I mean tester.  Those old five-platter
drives look and feel sturdy, but they were never intended to turn a
bullet....

Obviously, our preliminary results needed confirmation so we made it
something of a habit to take these mechs out for 'field testing' on a
regular basis. Both of us being professional computer techs, we had no
shortage of targets.

Some results:

Even though a .22cal will not generally penetrate, it really shakes the
drive badly.  Enough to ruin it if it wasn't allready ruined beforehand.
They leave a 'splash' of vaporized lead on the drive's cover. 

This surprised us, but the next least destructive rifle ammo is full-metal
jacket 'spitzer'-type rounds such as 7.62x39 Warsaw Pact, 5.56 Nato, and
7.65x54 'San Francisco' (Model 1891 Argentine Mauser).  These FMJ rounds
travel at 2000 to 3200 feet per second and just fly right through without
expanding.  5.56 (.223 Remington) is the most interesting of these because
at least it will tumble a bit due to the very light weight of the round
(55 grains versus 90 to 220 grains for the others).

The most interesting is hollowpoint pistol ammo.  The low muzzle velocity,
large throw weight, and expansion all contribute.  The rounds expand on
impact causing massive damage to the hard drive.  These rounds kinda
trundle along and do not exit the larger drives which results in heavy
internal damage.

My Winchester model 94' in cal. 30-30 is a pretty interesting hard drive
tester. It is very high velocity, but just one of it's flat-nosed, 'wad
cutter' rounds will tear the heart out of even a largish Micropolis. This
is due mainly to expansion.

My brother had one of the more interesting shots.  With a .357 magnum
revolver fireing .38 ammo, he very cleanly drove the spindle out of a
Connor IDE drive at about 25meters.  There was little damage to the drive
other than the spindle which, of course, we never found....

Conclusions:

Expanding rounds are best.  Pistols get the best results due to lower
muzzle velocity and a heavy slug. You will have to stand the target back
up after each shot.

Not having a muzzel-loader, we were unable to test, but from the other
data, it is almost certain that a .50cal miniball would be spectacular on
impact.

Military-style, high-velocity ammunition allows multiple shots at the
target - frequently without having to re-set the target after each shot.
This is because they pass cleanly through the drive without losing much
speed, and the rounds do not expand.

The strongest part of a hard disk drive is at the spindle.  Even a
Miniscribe 3650 will stop a 9mm if hit in the spindle area.

Very small calibers provide greater target longevity but increase the
possibility of ricochets and knock the drive over every time.

A .22long rifle cartridge will launch a bottle of red Christmas soda appx
80' vertically if you hit the bottle right at it's base. Larger calibers
perform more poorly because of the massive damage done to the base of the
bottle.

Our data with hard disk drives translates very well to whole computers and
monitors.

A .22 will not penetrate a monitor's business-end and it is unsafe to try. 
Use large calibers for monitors.

The materials used in hard disk covers are generally brittle and porous. 
Especially older Seagates.

Never go to the 'informal' range during hunting season. Deer don't shoot
back and the law will wonder what the hell is going on with all that
noise.....

It is a very satisfying thing to do to the hard disk what it did to you or
your customer. Poetic justice you might say.

Pick up after yourself when you are done shooting.  This includes brass as
well as the peices of your peices of equipment. This is polite to others,
environmentally concious, and gets rid of evidence.

Regards,

jeff



-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From jim at calico.litterbox.com  Tue Oct 17 19:34:52 2000
From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: Vax Station 3100
In-Reply-To: <39ECE3BB.FE5290A3@home.net> from "Neil Cherry" at Oct 17, 2000 07:41:47 PM
Message-ID: <200010180034.SAA07962@calico.litterbox.com>

What I was told when I did this was that drives bigger than 1gb won't work
properly due to firmware limitations.  I chose a 1gb IBM drive (if memory 
serves) and loaded the latest version of VMS from the hobbiest CD, which is
much less picky about drive firmware than previous versions.  It works fine.


> 
> I just got my VS3100 and it has no drive (I expected that). It has a part
> number of PM20A-AB. It has ~16M of RAM, a Video ram sim and nothing else.
> What do I have? What RAM can this beast take? How large a drive can it take?
> 
> The only other marking are BA42A and CPU KN01.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> PS
> This beast will be the drives for my Microvax ii until I get an IDE
> card in it.
> 
> -- 
> Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
> http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
> http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
> http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)
> 


-- 
Jim Strickland
jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
                              BeOS Powered!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

From ncherry at home.net  Tue Oct 17 19:26:35 2000
From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: Speaking of cubes
References: <XFMail.20001017150141.liste@artware.qc.ca>
Message-ID: <39ECEE3B.4B615127@home.net>

liste@artware.qc.ca wrote:
> 
> On 14-Oct-2000 Neil Cherry wrote:
> 
> > MS out I'll use Netscape as an example: Do we need to have our
> > mail program part of the Browser? The recent Mozilla release (18) looks
> > wonderful but cause Linux to swap like mad on a 64M box.
> 
> If you downloaded a binary distribution, it contains copious debuging
> information.  Recompile it without debugging info to get a more accurate
> idea of the bloat.

Then we get the other kind of bloat, developers bloat (I now need this
library AND development package, etc). I may give it a try after I get
a new drive. Right now I'm more worried about my VS3100 and Microvax.
They look so alone, ignored and not on the network. :-)

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

From claudew at sprint.ca  Tue Oct 17 19:47:58 2000
From: claudew at sprint.ca (Claude)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: Who collects (reads the mailing list...?) vintage computers in 
 Quebec, Canada?
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010171050230.12206-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <39ECF33E.7D9CB8E0@sprint.ca>

Sellam Ismail wrote:
> I don't know why everyone keeps referencing California as the land of
> bountiful classic computers where Altairs are picked off trees.
> 
> In fact, nothing could be further from the truth.  We've already collected
> everything over here.  There's nothing left.

Yeah, but where I am, we never even had the opportunity or hope of
finding one...

Plenty of hockey pucks, snow and maple syrup here in Quebec...trade for
a NeXT cube?

I guess the grass always does look greener in the neighboor's
yard...then again, ours is covered 5 months a year by snow...

Claude

From ncherry at home.net  Tue Oct 17 19:30:11 2000
From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: AT&T 6300 PC
References: <200010171750.e9HHoQG03454@bg-tc-ppp145.monmouth.com>
Message-ID: <39ECEF13.33A4C44F@home.net>

Bill Pechter wrote:

> The Olivetti/AT&T/Xerox machine had 16 bit and 8 bit slots.  The 16 bit
> are Pre-AT.  They also handled the byte order differently so there were
> other issues.

This sounded like the 6300+, a pre AT 286. It ran Unix (SYSV 3.0 I think).
I used to provide network support for these machines (and the 7300's, 3B1's,
3B2's, 3B5's, 3B15's, but not the 3B20S or 2B20D). One thing to watch out
for: a floppy will fit nicely under the floppy drive (I've had calls and
actually did it myself once when not paying attention).

BTW: the hotline is not longer there so don't call in to register the
warranty card (someone offered it her on the list). ;-)

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Tue Oct 17 21:08:05 2000
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: AT&T 6300 PC
In-Reply-To: <20001017225158.YBSK11792.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>
Message-ID: <PGEOIPOKPPLEFPGCLAFAMEHGCDAA.geneb@deltasoft.com>

> 620cyl, 4 heads, 17 sectors per track.
>
You sure?  I recall 615 as the cylinder count...

> You might try low-leveling that older hard disk.  Older Seagates are
> nearly bulletproof.  A  low-level format might help rejuvinate it.

Actually, if you've got a copy of SpinRite, this might do the trick as well.

g.


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Tue Oct 17 21:10:20 2000
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: Who collects (reads the mailing list...?) vintage computers in           Quebec, Canada?
In-Reply-To: <002c01c03893$3bdf1ec0$0500fea9@winbook>
Message-ID: <PGEOIPOKPPLEFPGCLAFAEEHHCDAA.geneb@deltasoft.com>

Naw, I'm a fat old geek, but I've had more than my fair share of beer
glasses thrown at me. :)

g.

> You're pretty nimble, there, Gene!  All that ducking and all that
> running .
> . . you must be in good shape!
>
> Dick
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gene Buckle <geneb@deltasoft.com>
> To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2000 4:19 PM
> Subject: Re: Who collects (reads the mailing list...?) vintage
> computers in
> Quebec, Canada?
>
>
> >
> > Ouch.  You're not supposed to reap between the lines....*dives
> for cover*
> > >
> > > You could always look for Johnny Altairseed...
> > >
> > > <ducks and runs....>
> > >
> > >
> > > In a message dated Tue, 17 Oct 2000  4:02:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> Gene
> > > Buckle <geneb@deltasoft.com> writes:
> > >
> > > << > bountiful classic computers where Altairs are picked off trees.
> > > >
> > > Hey - you suppose I could have some seeds for that tree? *ducks*
> > >
> > > g.
> > >
> > >
> > >  >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Tue Oct 17 21:12:24 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: Vax Station 3100
Message-ID: <016301c038a9$37934240$d1759a8d@ajp166>

From: Jim Strickland <jim@calico.litterbox.com>
Subject: Re: Vax Station 3100


>What I was told when I did this was that drives bigger than 1gb won't
work
>properly due to firmware limitations.  I chose a 1gb IBM drive (if
memory
>serves) and loaded the latest version of VMS from the hobbiest CD, which
is
>much less picky about drive firmware than previous versions.  It works
fine.


Most of the older 3100s will work with up to 4 or 8gb drives with a
"but".
the limitation is the bootable patition must staart in the first 1gb with
for VMS
naturally occurs and the biggie you accept the fact that if the system
crash
dumps the address wraparound in the first gb will kill the bootable
media.

A reasonable approach is a 500-1gb SYS and any size under 4 or it it 8gb
for user and other "stuff".


>> This beast will be the drives for my Microvax ii until I get an IDE
>> card in it.


until you make one that is.

Allison



From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Tue Oct 17 21:14:32 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: MS Laugh-In
Message-ID: <016401c038a9$3a22c6c0$d1759a8d@ajp166>

From: Roger Merchberger <zmerch@30below.com>
>>I take it the market doesn't yet trust W2000 and SP3 will be a while
yet.
>>
>>Allison
>
>No... Win2k doesn't play all the games yet...


What do you think SP3 will do... move the video and io to ring 0
oh yes thats been done before. ;)

Allison


From THETechnoid at home.com  Tue Oct 17 21:19:30 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: AT&T 6300 PC
In-Reply-To: <PGEOIPOKPPLEFPGCLAFAMEHGCDAA.geneb@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <20001018021330.GWTB23659.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

You are right.  It is 615 as per Seagate's website.

In <PGEOIPOKPPLEFPGCLAFAMEHGCDAA.geneb@deltasoft.com>, on 10/17/00 
   at 10:19 PM, "Gene Buckle" <geneb@deltasoft.com> said:

>> 620cyl, 4 heads, 17 sectors per track.
>>
>You sure?  I recall 615 as the cylinder count...

>> You might try low-leveling that older hard disk.  Older Seagates are
>> nearly bulletproof.  A  low-level format might help rejuvinate it.

>Actually, if you've got a copy of SpinRite, this might do the trick as
>well.

>g.


-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Tue Oct 17 21:28:15 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: Bulletproof hard disks
Message-ID: <017701c038ac$1aecc9b0$d1759a8d@ajp166>


From: THETechnoid@home.com <THETechnoid@home.com>
Subject: Bulletproof hard disks


Loved it!


>Military-style, high-velocity ammunition allows multiple shots at the
>target - frequently without having to re-set the target after each shot.
>This is because they pass cleanly through the drive without losing much
>speed, and the rounds do not expand.


A .308 is pretty hard on a st412 at 50yds.

For spectacular effect, 30yds with 12ga 7/8th ounce remington slug.
That 1100fpm truck not only goes through it, the remains end up
an innch or two into a hardwood log.

>Very small calibers provide greater target longevity but increase the
>possibility of ricochets and knock the drive over every time.


>A .22 will not penetrate a monitor's business-end and it is unsafe to
try.
>Use large calibers for monitors.


Try a .22 remington magnum.

>Pick up after yourself when you are done shooting.  This includes brass
as


It's a good thing.

Allison




From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 17 21:37:28 2000
From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: VAX Ethernet (was Re: IDE on Qbus (was Re: Microvax II))
Message-ID: <20001018023728.56780.qmail@web9506.mail.yahoo.com>


--- ajp166 <ajp166@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
> Cheap as far as I know.  The key thing is despite claims if the DEQNA
> you have is working, whats the rush to dump it. 

Isn't there an issue with VMS obsoleting the DEQNA?

> ...take any DEQNAs you can get from free or nearly so.

This one was free, as was the uVAXII it was in (RA81, KDA50, 9Mb, etc)


-ethan


=====
Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to
vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com

The original webpage address is still going away.  The 
permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/

See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf!  It's FREE.
http://im.yahoo.com/

From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com  Tue Oct 17 22:05:12 2000
From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: VAX Ethernet (was Re: IDE on Qbus (was Re: Microvax II))
In-Reply-To: <20001018023728.56780.qmail@web9506.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001017200351.00a3ec40@208.226.86.10>

 > Isn't there an issue with VMS obsoleting the DEQNA?

Somewhere I read a service note that said it was not supported on 
processors later than the KA640/KA650.

--Chuck



From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Tue Oct 17 22:31:08 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: VAX Ethernet (was Re: IDE on Qbus (was Re: Microvax II))
Message-ID: <019601c038b3$f66aa6e0$d1759a8d@ajp166>

From: Ethan Dicks <ethan_dicks@yahoo.com>
>> Cheap as far as I know.  The key thing is despite claims if the DEQNA
>> you have is working, whats the rush to dump it. 
>
>Isn't there an issue with VMS obsoleting the DEQNA?


Remember the discussion of a few days ago.  Well the rule for VMS
is DEQNA is not obsolete, just unsupported.  FYI, unsupported 
does not mean there is no driver only that the supplied on has not 
been updated or rigerously tested in those version so dont call and 
complain if it dont work.  It went unsupported with V5.0.

>This one was free, as was the uVAXII it was in (RA81, KDA50, 9Mb, etc)


Use it.  The DELQA and DEQNA have nearly identical modes with the delqa
adding a higher performance one(plus reliability).  For VMS prior to
7.x it does work and for 7.2 mine seems ok.

Allison


From jim at calico.litterbox.com  Tue Oct 17 22:45:04 2000
From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: VAX Ethernet (was Re: IDE on Qbus (was Re: Microvax II))
In-Reply-To: <019601c038b3$f66aa6e0$d1759a8d@ajp166> from "ajp166" at Oct 17, 2000 11:31:08 PM
Message-ID: <200010180345.VAA08564@calico.litterbox.com>

> Remember the discussion of a few days ago.  Well the rule for VMS
> is DEQNA is not obsolete, just unsupported.  FYI, unsupported 
> does not mean there is no driver only that the supplied on has not 
> been updated or rigerously tested in those version so dont call and 
> complain if it dont work.  It went unsupported with V5.0.
> 
> >This one was free, as was the uVAXII it was in (RA81, KDA50, 9Mb, etc)
> 
> Use it.  The DELQA and DEQNA have nearly identical modes with the delqa
> adding a higher performance one(plus reliability).  For VMS prior to
> 7.x it does work and for 7.2 mine seems ok.
> 
> Allison

Seriously?  I have this vague memory of VMS 5.5 turning off the deqna interface
and not paying attention to it because it was unsupported.  This may have been
when we were trying to boot the uvax II from the cluster server though.  And
it's been almost 10 years now, so I may be misremembering the whole thing.

-- 
Jim Strickland
jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
                              BeOS Powered!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com  Tue Oct 17 22:05:12 2000
From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: VAX Ethernet (was Re: IDE on Qbus (was Re: Microvax II))
In-Reply-To: <20001018023728.56780.qmail@web9506.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001017200351.00a3ec40@208.226.86.10>

 > Isn't there an issue with VMS obsoleting the DEQNA?

Somewhere I read a service note that said it was not supported on 
processors later than the KA640/KA650.

--Chuck



From jpl15 at panix.com  Tue Oct 17 23:09:42 2000
From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: PCR 1000 [for Mike Ford and Allison]
In-Reply-To: <l03102806b6124221d81c@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0010172354130.14291-100000@panix6.panix.com>



  The PCR-1000 comes with reasonably useful softwarwe from Icom; and can
be used from Win3.1 up (not NT). Several other packages are readily
available, from shareware to expensive commercial products, depends on
what you want the radio for (SWL; scanning; commercial apps).  NOte that
like any wide-band reciever, it wants a well-thought-out antenna system
and a good ground.

ObClassiccmp:
  
  Since the radio is operated via RS-232, and the commands are published,
there is no reason why any Vintage Computer could not be taught to run
it. The only caveat is that, for the bandscope (Panadaptor) function, the
baud rate needs to be in the 300K range.


  Pricing: The PCR-1000 has a street price of around $500, and the add-in
DSP module is another $150. YMMV. As I said, eminently useable software is
bundled (on floppies).  I most highly recommend the DSP option for those
interested in SWL and DX work; it has pulled hard-to-find stations out
from under impenetrable heterodynes, made noisy RTTY sigs completely
readable, etc.

  URLs:  www.icomamerica.com/recievers
   and to test-drive one: www.javaradio.com  (requires java enabled)

  Ok, enough of this before Sellam's LART finds me, even here in Madras.


  Cheers

John

PS: Hey, wouldn't that make a cool SF title? 'Sellam's Lart'....


From jhfine at idirect.com  Tue Oct 17 23:15:48 2000
From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010171531030.12678-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <39ED23F4.91A025D5@idirect.com>

>Sellam Ismail wrote:

> > I wasn't there, but I take it that some vendors dumped stuff they couldn't
> > sell?  What is the problem with that?
> Well, personally, I think it demonstrates poor character (the mentality is
> "if no one will give me money for this then I'm not going to give it away
> either"...basically like the type of people who would rather scrap
> something than sell it for less than they think it's worth) but that's
> just my opinion.

Jerome Fine replies:

There might be another reason.  I don't agree with the reason, but if you
attempt to step into their shoes (as I just did since I wanted to answer),
they may feel that giving it away would prevent a sale in the future.  Plus,
if no one is willing to pay for the item, no one should have it.  Probably
the first reason (which is self-interest) is more correct.

> However, since in this case I get to call the shots, I won't allow this to
> happen at the VCF.  It happened this year and last because I didn't have a
> policy about it and I didn't know it was happening until this year.

I really think it would have been very easy to anticipate the problem - maybe
not the extent - and if small it probably would not matter.  But even if it was
or is small, I personally find the whole idea unreasonable.

However, you will also find that if you actually have a standard policy that
stops dumping, at least a few people will just take the junk with them
after all and dump it somewhere else - which you should also consider.
If that policy is also unreasonable, but you feel it is out of your hands if
that happens, then you really need to re-think what should and needs
to be done.

> From now on, I'd like the vendors to leave with what they bring, or if
> they choose to leave it behind, it will have to be made free, first-come,
> first-served.  However, finding a way to enforce this that won't tick off
> a vendor will require some thought.

Maybe have the vendors decide by a vote.  I suspect that most people
will not want their names associated with deliberate dumping.  The
question of taking stuff home could also be on the agenda - along with
reserve prices, etc.  However, since I have never been to a VCF and
don't know how the vendors and customers feel about such things,
I am just bring up some questions.  Why not poll this list for some answers
and give particular weight to previous vendors and customers.

> I brought a bunch of Apple //e systems to sell and only managed to hawk
> one.  I didn't want to go home with the rest of them, and I certainly
> didn't want to trash them, so I yelled "FREE APPLE //E SYSTEMS!!!" and a
> few people came running.  Problem solved :)

I would agree that is one of the most reasonable methods.  Another might be
tagging an article if it does not sell - maybe with a minimum donation to the VCF
and having a window during which the item can be claimed.  I don't know what
the VCF budget is, but those donations could be used to provide a vendor
with a credit for the next event - that way everyone seems to win.  Maybe
at least 10% of the items left unsold must be made available in that manner -
vendors choice of course.

Sincerely yours,

Jerome Fine


From vaxman at uswest.net  Tue Oct 17 23:18:22 2000
From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: Vax Station 3100
In-Reply-To: <39ECE3BB.FE5290A3@home.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1001017221533.22245A-100000@oldy.crwolff.com>


Hmmm.. KN01 is a DECstation (MIPs processor), not a VAXstation 
(VAX processor)... Is there a NetBSD port that will run on this 
box I wonder... The video SIMM is another clue (for those of you
keeping score)...

clint


On Tue, 17 Oct 2000, Neil Cherry wrote:

> I just got my VS3100 and it has no drive (I expected that). It has a part
> number of PM20A-AB. It has ~16M of RAM, a Video ram sim and nothing else.
> What do I have? What RAM can this beast take? How large a drive can it take?
> 
> The only other marking are BA42A and CPU KN01.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> PS
> This beast will be the drives for my Microvax ii until I get an IDE
> card in it.
> 
> -- 
> Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
> http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
> http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
> http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)
> 
> 


From vaxman at uswest.net  Tue Oct 17 23:19:59 2000
From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: VAX Ethernet (was Re: IDE on Qbus (was Re: Microvax II))
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001017200351.00a3ec40@208.226.86.10>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1001017221920.22245B-100000@oldy.crwolff.com>


IIRC, the KA640/KA650 include an on-board ethernet, so a DEQNA
would only be needed in a gateway...

clint


On Tue, 17 Oct 2000, Chuck McManis wrote:

>  > Isn't there an issue with VMS obsoleting the DEQNA?
> 
> Somewhere I read a service note that said it was not supported on 
> processors later than the KA640/KA650.
> 
> --Chuck
> 
> 
> 
> 


From ncherry at home.net  Tue Oct 17 23:58:59 2000
From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: Vax Station 3100
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1001017221533.22245A-100000@oldy.crwolff.com>
Message-ID: <39ED2E13.641EEB80@home.net>

"Clint Wolff (VAX collector)" wrote:
> 
> Hmmm.. KN01 is a DECstation (MIPs processor), not a VAXstation
> (VAX processor)... Is there a NetBSD port that will run on this
> box I wonder... The video SIMM is another clue (for those of you
> keeping score)...
> 
> clint

Oh oh, is there going to be a problem with this? You are right it's a
DECStation (I wanted a Vax Station)!

So now I'm really confused as to what I have.

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

From foo at siconic.com  Tue Oct 17 23:07:08 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: PCR 1000 [for Mike Ford and Allison]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0010172354130.14291-100000@panix6.panix.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010172105210.13149-100000@siconic.com>

On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, John Lawson wrote:

> PS: Hey, wouldn't that make a cool SF title? 'Sellam's Lart'....

Sounds like some sort of odd physiological disorder :)

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From foo at siconic.com  Tue Oct 17 23:18:17 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
In-Reply-To: <39ED23F4.91A025D5@idirect.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010172107320.13149-100000@siconic.com>

On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Jerome Fine wrote:

> There might be another reason.  I don't agree with the reason, but if you
> attempt to step into their shoes (as I just did since I wanted to answer),
> they may feel that giving it away would prevent a sale in the future.  Plus,
> if no one is willing to pay for the item, no one should have it.  Probably
> the first reason (which is self-interest) is more correct.

It might more likely be that no one is willing to pay for it at the price
that they are selling.  Either that, or it's junk to begin with and they
should not have brought it in the first place.

"If no one is willing to pay for the item, no one should have it."  Sorry
to be blunt, but doesn't this describe the exact thing that I was saying
demonstrates poor character?  The sensible thing to do is to continue to
lower the price throughout the weekend until it either sells or it's at
zero dollars.  If it can't even be given away, then it should be thrown
out, but in my experience this rarely happens with free stuff unless it's
absolute crap.

> I really think it would have been very easy to anticipate the problem
> - maybe not the extent - and if small it probably would not matter.  
> But even if it was or is small, I personally find the whole idea
> unreasonable.

It would not have occurred to me that someone would be discarding all
their stuff at the VCF.  It may as well be given a chance to go home with
someone else before it is thrown out.

> However, you will also find that if you actually have a standard
> policy that stops dumping, at least a few people will just take the
> junk with them after all and dump it somewhere else - which you should
> also consider. If that policy is also unreasonable, but you feel it is
> out of your hands if that happens, then you really need to re-think
> what should and needs to be done.

It should be given away at the end rather than dumped.  The world already
has enough crap in the landfills.

> I would agree that is one of the most reasonable methods.  Another
> might be tagging an article if it does not sell - maybe with a minimum
> donation to the VCF and having a window during which the item can be
> claimed.  I don't know what the VCF budget is, but those donations
> could be used to provide a vendor with a credit for the next event -
> that way everyone seems to win.  Maybe at least 10% of the items left
> unsold must be made available in that manner - vendors choice of
> course.

Or they just lower their prices until someone decides it's reasonable
enough to exchange money for.

Anyway, this should be off-line private VCF banter, so if you'd like to
discuss it with me further, please e-mail me at <sellam@vintage.org>.

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 18 00:24:41 2000
From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: VAX Ethernet (was Re: IDE on Qbus (was Re: Microvax II))
Message-ID: <20001018052441.79518.qmail@web9504.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Jim Strickland <jim@calico.litterbox.com> wrote:
> > Remember the discussion of a few days ago.  Well the rule for VMS
> > is DEQNA is not obsolete, just unsupported.
> 
> Seriously?  I have this vague memory of VMS 5.5 turning off the deqna
> interface and not paying attention to it because it was unsupported. 
> This may have been when we were trying to boot the uvax II from the 
> cluster server though.  And it's been almost 10 years now, so I may be
> misremembering the whole thing.

Well my recent (last night) experience suggests that what you remember is
true.  I was refitting my BA123 with a CPU, 8Mb of PMI memory, my one-and-
only DEQNA and an RQDX3 and stuffed into it a bootable RD54 from a VS2000
that happens to have VMS 5.5 and some stuff to fire up a LAT server and
clustering.  The startup bitched mightily about the presence of the DEQNA
and casual reading of the error messages seemed to tell me that VMS 5.5
cluster manager did *not* like it one bit.

Because the machine is standalone at the moment, I didn't pay much attention
to it all.  Eventually, I do need to get something working with Qbus and
Ethernet (so I can begin to make physical backups of some 9 track tapes I
have sitting here).  I'll have to either stuff a KDA50 in this beast and
use my MDA SDI<->ESDI box (dual 1.2Mb disks) or hang a couple of RD53s
off the RQDX3 and limit myself to one or two tapes at a time before shooting
them down the pipe.

Ah the good old days...

-ethan


=====
Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to
vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com

The original webpage address is still going away.  The 
permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/

See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf!  It's FREE.
http://im.yahoo.com/

From jim at calico.litterbox.com  Wed Oct 18 00:27:23 2000
From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: Vax Station 3100
In-Reply-To: <39ED2E13.641EEB80@home.net> from "Neil Cherry" at Oct 18, 2000 12:58:59 AM
Message-ID: <200010180527.XAA08936@calico.litterbox.com>

Decstations were Ultrix-only machines based around the MIPS archetecture.  They
were considerably faster than comparably priced vaxen (if memory serves) and
made fine workstations and light fileservers.  But no, it won't run VMS.


> 
> "Clint Wolff (VAX collector)" wrote:
> > 
> > Hmmm.. KN01 is a DECstation (MIPs processor), not a VAXstation
> > (VAX processor)... Is there a NetBSD port that will run on this
> > box I wonder... The video SIMM is another clue (for those of you
> > keeping score)...
> > 
> > clint
> 
> Oh oh, is there going to be a problem with this? You are right it's a
> DECStation (I wanted a Vax Station)!
> 
> So now I'm really confused as to what I have.
> 
> -- 
> Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
> http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
> http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
> http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)
> 


-- 
Jim Strickland
jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
                              BeOS Powered!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

From jate at uwasa.fi  Wed Oct 18 00:57:30 2000
From: jate at uwasa.fi (Jarkko Hermanni Teppo)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: VAX Ethernet (was Re: IDE on Qbus (was Re: Microvax II))
In-Reply-To: <20001017195858.81544.qmail@web9502.mail.yahoo.com>; from ethan_dicks@yahoo.com on Tue, Oct 17, 2000 at 12:58:58PM -0700
References: <20001017195858.81544.qmail@web9502.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20001018085730.D20179@loisto.uwasa.fi>

On Tue, Oct 17, 2000 at 12:58:58PM -0700, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> 
> --- ajp166 <ajp166@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
> > >    Crystal CS8900 Ethernet
> > 
> > DELQA
> 
> What are DELQAs going for these days?  All I have is a DEQNA.  :-(
> 
> Also, are there any VAXBI experts out there?  I have a DEBNT that did
> not come in my machine and I need some help with installing it (where
> the cab kit plugs into the I/O section of the VAXBI bus, especially)
> 

[In the case of 8350] Pull the BA-box out, open top-cover, choose slot,
insert card, flip BA-cabinet, remove bottom plate, check that the slot has
the ID-jumpers, insert cables and tighten to [some specific value]. Put
everything back together. Blame Jarkko for not remembering the important stuff.

Seriously, that's the way it probably should be done. The machine I have is
suffering from some weird stuff, it seems KDB is faulty. If anyone wants to
take a look I have some EBUCA logs at

http://www.tec.puv.fi/~s99137/kuvat/vax_logs/

I've been too busy trying to restore an old HP 7974 9-track, with 
Thorn-Emi Datatech innards.

-- 
Jarkko Teppo
jate@uwasa.fi


From univac2 at earthlink.net  Wed Oct 18 01:00:27 2000
From: univac2 at earthlink.net (Owen Robertson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: I need PDP-11/34A Help Again (Suprise Suprise)
Message-ID: <39ED3C7B.67EAC436@earthlink.net>

First off, I'd like to thank you for all the help you have given me. I
had to take a break from the PDP-11/34 for a while, but I'm back now. I
think the computer is working OK now, but I still can't get the printout
on the console. I double checked the settings on the DL11-W. When I turn
on the computer, the RUN light flashes for a split second, and the
readout reads 000002. How do I examine and deposit? I'm using a LINK
terminal emulating a VT-100. I set all the communication settings to
match the DL11-W, but what do I do with these settings:

Main Rcv Hndsk
Main Xmt Hndsk
Main Rcv Level
Ignore 8th Bit
Communications Mode
Disconnect

I've tried this with a Null Modem Adapter, and without. Any ideas?

Thanks,
Owen


From ncherry at home.net  Wed Oct 18 01:08:10 2000
From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: Vax Station 3100
References: <200010180527.XAA08936@calico.litterbox.com>
Message-ID: <39ED3E4A.A5F7AD28@home.net>

Jim Strickland wrote:
> 
> Decstations were Ultrix-only machines based around the MIPS archetecture.  They
> were considerably faster than comparably priced vaxen (if memory serves) and
> made fine workstations and light fileservers.  But no, it won't run VMS.
> 

According to message I found during a web search, I may have purchased a
lemon. It states that the machine won't boot without a keyboard and mouse.
Well I don't have any. I'll have to hunt them down and then load *BSD.

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

From nabil at SpiritOne.com  Wed Oct 18 01:32:05 2000
From: nabil at SpiritOne.com (Aaron Nabil)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010171531030.12678-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.21.0010172302290.8125-100000@ridge.spiritone.com>


On Tue, 17 Oct 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Oct 2000, Aaron Nabil wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, 17 Oct 2000, Mike Ford wrote:
> > > >Vendors dumping Schtuff after VCF.
> > > >Details still have to be developed.
> > > 
> > > Just don't make it so vendors dumpster stuff anyway, only some other
> > > dumpster than a nice convient one.
> > 
> > I wasn't there, but I take it that some vendors dumped stuff they couldn't
> > sell?  What is the problem with that?
> 
> Well, personally, I think it demonstrates poor character (the mentality is
> "if no one will give me money for this then I'm not going to give it away
> either"...basically like the type of people who would rather scrap
> something than sell it for less than they think it's worth) but that's
> just my opinion.

I scrap (well, actually throw away) a HUGE amount of stuff rather than
"sell it for less than I think it's worth".  No, I'm not in the
business, I'm just a hobbiest, but if I can have valid reasons for
throwing things away instead of selling them at a lower price (or giving
them away), I can certainly imagine that they do too.  It's uncalled for
ascribing "poor character" to people unless you also happen to be a mind
reader, they might have perfectly valid reasons for doing what they do.

> . . .
> From now on, I'd like the vendors to leave with what they bring, or if
> they choose to leave it behind, it will have to be made free, first-come,
> first-served.  However, finding a way to enforce this that won't tick off
> a vendor will require some thought.

And that would be one of the reasons I throw things away, people who try
impose their rules onto "free" things.  It's really a huge hassle, I've
endured a hundred times more grief from "free" things then all of the
stuff I've ever sold put together.  I'd drop the "first come, first
served" thing and offer a "free disposal" service to the vendors.  On the
last day, you'll haul away ALL of their crap if they would be willing to
set the stuff they don't want carefully in some designated area.  From
that point either people will take it or you will dumpster it, but it
won't be the vendor's problem anymore.  

--
Aaron Nabil


From wmsmith at earthlink.net  Wed Oct 18 02:01:53 2000
From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: Need I.D. on IMSAI parts
References: <Pine.OSF.4.21.0010172302290.8125-100000@ridge.spiritone.com>
Message-ID: <015f01c038d1$4c209d20$339eb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net>

I just obtained, in various pieces, a VDP-40 and a
VDP-44 from which I am hoping to assemble one working
unit (perhaps to display at next year's VCF).  Among
the stuff was a bag of parts (resistors, capacitors,
ICs, LEDs, etc.) with a parts list.  I've scanned the
list and posted it at:

http://home.earthlink.net/~wmsmith/Imsai/Bag_of_parts.j
pg

Can anyone i.d. this for me?


From liste at artware.qc.ca  Wed Oct 18 03:15:31 2000
From: liste at artware.qc.ca (liste@artware.qc.ca)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: Who collects (reads the mailing list...?) vintage computers 
In-Reply-To: <39E91A81.6D7825C1@sprint.ca>
Message-ID: <XFMail.20001018041531.liste@artware.qc.ca>


On 15-Oct-2000 Claude wrote:
> Hi
> 
> Sometimes I think I may be the only vintage computer collector in
> Quebec, Canada.
> 
> I would like to hear if anybody else does any collecting around here
> (Montreal area)
I'm in Sherbrooke (moving to Cookshire soon).

> Those who feel sad for me can send me their Lisa's, TRS model IIIs and
> Next boxes ;-> 

A friend of mine picked up a NeXT slab at A1 for dirty cheap (considering
A1's general price scale).  I got my VT220 from PC Recycl? which is way
north.  Also, the ?co-Quartier on the corner of Mason and de Lorimier had
huge piles of used computer gear.  Mostly PC stuff but also a few LARGE
GDM monitors.  The PCR right near the bus terminus had a TRS80 the last
time I was there.  They were also the only people I found that had an
RJ-14 connector.

However, this previous list are places that make a living refurbishing PCs
and Macs and reselling them, so their prices for the stuff I'm interested
in are a tad exagerated.  In Sherbrooke, I go to all the thrift stores
about once a month.  I've picked up a few interesting bits for next to
nothing.  There's also Au Vieux PC, a store run by a gruff chain-smoking
old lady.  Shoping there is an adventure.  Prices are high (80 CAD for a
C64 monitor??), but she checks and guarantees most if not everything she
sells.  I find it's a great place to pick up old games (like Return to
Ringworld and Tommy Then & Now).

-Philip



From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Wed Oct 18 04:20:23 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: MS Laugh-In
In-Reply-To: <006d01c03893$101ba8d0$d1759a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <l03102802b6131a9cab46@[192.168.1.4]>

>I take it the market doesn't yet trust W2000 and SP3 will be a while yet.

Most people have no desire to update their OS from W95 or W98, not broken
don't fix it attitude. Standing in line, and paying full price for beta
software has lost its chic. Stability is currently more popular than
features.



From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Wed Oct 18 03:39:58 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: NEC APC available
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001017155158.0248d2c0@binhost.com>
References: <l03102808b61266706409@[192.168.1.4]>
 <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010161637170.10991-100000@siconic.com>
 <4.3.2.7.0.20001016170120.029bec70@pc>
Message-ID: <l03102800b613112a71f5@[192.168.1.4]>

>>Speaking of Windows etc., how do I extract the serial number from a PC with
>>W95 running on it? I want to have it in case something screws up and I need
>>to reinstall, plus I would like to change the registered owner from Biology
>>Dept to me or some such.
>
>Usually listed in the System control panel on the first General tab.  If
>not, listed in the registry under:
>
>HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\ProductID
>
>Same location, is RegisteredOwner which you can change. :)

Thanks, I looked at the control Panel/system/general and wasn't sure it
"looked" like a serial number. These old 575 are real keepers. Not that bad
even at P75 speeds I checked the motherboard and it has switch settings for
up to a P120. Now if I can just make them work with some version of *nix....



From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net  Wed Oct 18 08:31:51 2000
From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (Sue & Francois)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: MS Laugh-In
References: <3.0.1.32.20001017195812.00fde2a8@mail.30below.com>
Message-ID: <004101c03907$c68c1f40$0264a8c0@mediaone.net>

Well actually I found WindMill to be a lot more robust than the predecessors
and have had no problem with it yet ( I've been running it since mid july).
I don't relly care if MS integrates the NT stuff with the consumer product,
they will probably lose their credibility in some IT shops and some user
might find the NT deal somewhat intimidating.... Time will tell...
Francois

> Rumor has it that ajp166 may have mentioned these words:
> >>this rant just came to me:
> >>
> >>            "Windows Me"
>
> >Rant #n+1   Win98 was supposed to be the end of the line with W2000
> >being the replacer... then it was Win98se  now win98me (yes it's w98!).
> >I take it the market doesn't yet trust W2000 and SP3 will be a while yet.
> >
> >Allison
>
> No... Win2k doesn't play all the games yet...
>
> Just my personal observation...
>
> "Merch"
> --
> Roger "Merch" Merchberger   ---   sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
> Recycling is good, right???  Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig.
>
> If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead
> disarmament should *not* be your first career choice.


From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au  Tue Oct 17 04:53:45 2000
From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: AT&T 6300 PC
Message-ID: <009301c03820$24f02240$dadf8490@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au>

This machine is very common in Australia but is badged as an Olivetti M24.
Magazines of the time had many ads for them and it's contemporary the NEC
APC III

Hans

>
>A new addition to my collection, an AT&T 6300 PC.  Some stats that I have
>so far:
>
> i8086 CPU
> 640 K RAM
> Weird keyboard
> green monochrome display
> Boots MSDOS 3.3 happily
>
>I'll do some searching on the web later tonight for info on it, as well as
>cleaning it up, but if anyone has information on this little artifact, its



From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Wed Oct 18 06:57:18 2000
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.21.0010172302290.8125-100000@ridge.spiritone.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010171531030.12678-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <39EDAC3E.6717.19D200B4@localhost>

> Aaron Nabil <nabil@SpiritOne.com>
> On Tue, 17 Oct 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote:
> > On Tue, 17 Oct 2000, Aaron Nabil wrote:
> > > On Tue, 17 Oct 2000, Mike Ford wrote:
> > > > >Vendors dumping Schtuff after VCF.
> > > > >Details still have to be developed.
> > > > Just don't make it so vendors dumpster stuff anyway, only some other
> > > > dumpster than a nice convient one.
> > > I wasn't there, but I take it that some vendors dumped stuff they couldn't
> > > sell?  What is the problem with that?

Unapropriate Dumpster ?
Also, things got damaged, so dumpster diving wasn't a solution.
And in at least one case the Vendor didn't realized that people
might take his 'junk' after all. He was basicly willing to let
it go, just tried to clean his place.

> > Well, personally, I think it demonstrates poor character (the mentality is
> > "if no one will give me money for this then I'm not going to give it away
> > either"...basically like the type of people who would rather scrap
> > something than sell it for less than they think it's worth) but that's
> > just my opinion.

> I scrap (well, actually throw away) a HUGE amount of stuff rather than
> "sell it for less than I think it's worth".  No, I'm not in the
> business, I'm just a hobbiest, but if I can have valid reasons for
> throwing things away instead of selling them at a lower price (or giving
> them away), I can certainly imagine that they do too.  It's uncalled for
> ascribing "poor character" to people unless you also happen to be a mind
> reader, they might have perfectly valid reasons for doing what they do.

A perfectly healthy state of mind of one person may be total
insanity to another, and your expression may need some additional
backup to be considered by most people. Throwing away goods
istead of selling is more damaging to the vendor than selling
at a lower price (even when lower than the cost to produce) .
This is valid for most economic situations, eventualy except
communist systems and EU buerocracy.

> > . . .
> > From now on, I'd like the vendors to leave with what they bring, or if
> > they choose to leave it behind, it will have to be made free, first-come,
> > first-served.  However, finding a way to enforce this that won't tick off
> > a vendor will require some thought.

> And that would be one of the reasons I throw things away, people who try
> impose their rules onto "free" things.  It's really a huge hassle, I've
> endured a hundred times more grief from "free" things then all of the
> stuff I've ever sold put together.  I'd drop the "first come, first
> served" thing and offer a "free disposal" service to the vendors.  On the
> last day, you'll haul away ALL of their crap if they would be willing to
> set the stuff they don't want carefully in some designated area.  From
> that point either people will take it or you will dumpster it, but it
> won't be the vendor's problem anymore.  

Take Sallams B&W view with a grain of salt - He's american, he's in favour
of a simple solutions ;) The policy can only offer a possible way to handle
the problem rather than imposing strict rules (Just think, if we offer free
disposal, some vendor may just leave after VCF and we have to clean their
junk). It'S the marketing kind of name game :) Rather than forcing some
not managable rule a convinient service is offered.

Gruss
H.

--
VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen
http://www.vintage.org/vcfe
http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org  Wed Oct 18 08:36:08 2000
From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: AT&T 6300 PC
In-Reply-To: <39ECEF13.33A4C44F@home.net> from Neil Cherry at "Oct 17, 2000 08:30:11
 pm"
Message-ID: <200010181336.e9IDa8x05873@bg-tc-ppp1206.monmouth.com>

> Bill Pechter wrote:
> 
> > The Olivetti/AT&T/Xerox machine had 16 bit and 8 bit slots.  The 16 bit
> > are Pre-AT.  They also handled the byte order differently so there were
> > other issues.
> 
> This sounded like the 6300+, a pre AT 286. It ran Unix (SYSV 3.0 I think).
> I used to provide network support for these machines (and the 7300's, 3B1's,
> 3B2's, 3B5's, 3B15's, but not the 3B20S or 2B20D). One thing to watch out
> for: a floppy will fit nicely under the floppy drive (I've had calls and
> actually did it myself once when not paying attention).
> 
> BTW: the hotline is not longer there so don't call in to register the
> warranty card (someone offered it her on the list). ;-)
> 
> -- 
> Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net

Actually, the 6300+ was pretty similar with just a different motherboard
and more memory capacity.

The 6300+ ran SysV Rel2... and I think 3.

The fix for the floppy insertion is electrical tape placed between 
the drives... 8-)

Too bad about the hotline, Right Choice bbs and the old AT&T PC
community -- which was pretty large in NJ.

Bill
  

-- 
bpechter@monmouth.com    | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10  
                         | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2
                         | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour 

From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org  Wed Oct 18 08:46:34 2000
From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: AT&T 6300 PC
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SCO.4.20.0010171445120.2336-100000@crash.cts.com> from Don
 Maslin at "Oct 17, 2000 02:47:00 pm"
Message-ID: <200010181346.e9IDkY406068@bg-tc-ppp1083.monmouth.com>

> 
> 
> On Tue, 17 Oct 2000, Bill Pechter wrote:
> 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > (I'm at work, have to look when I get home) an STS-232 drive.
> > > 
> > > There is a good possibility that you can find it at: 
> > > 
> > > 		    http://theref.aquascape.com
> > > 
> > > 						 - don
> > > 
> > >  
> > 
> > Probably a Seagate ST-232...a 612 heads (sometimes documented as 615 or
> > 616) 4 heads sectors (depends on controller and if you're doing wierd
> > stuff).
> > 
> > Sectors are usually 15/trk.
> 
> Bill, where did you come up with that model?  I can find no record of
> it, anywhere!  And isn't it usually 17 spt? 
> 
> 						 - don

Parity error on /dev/brain  Core dumped. The damned Unix Perkin-Elmer
box limited them to 15 sectors/track. (WD 1001 controller)

'Course the RLL took em to 25 (IIRC).

Yup ST225 or later the RLL ST232...  
-- 
bpechter@monmouth.com    | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10  
                         | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2
                         | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour 

From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 18 08:42:50 2000
From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: VAX Ethernet (was Re: IDE on Qbus (was Re: Microvax II))
Message-ID: <20001018134250.36592.qmail@web9501.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Jarkko Hermanni Teppo <jate@uwasa.fi> wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 17, 2000 at 12:58:58PM -0700, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> > Also, are there any VAXBI experts out there?  I have a DEBNT that did
> > not come in my machine and I need some help with installing it (where
> > the cab kit plugs into the I/O section of the VAXBI bus, especially)
> > 
> 
> [In the case of 8350] Pull the BA-box out, open top-cover, choose slot,
> insert card, flip BA-cabinet, remove bottom plate, check that the slot has
> the ID-jumpers...

Yep... standard stuff...

> insert cables

Ah!  Here's the crux of my question... *which* connector of the appropriate
slot gets the cable?  It's easy for a KDB50 - it's all of them.
 
> Seriously, that's the way it probably should be done. The machine I have is
> suffering from some weird stuff, it seems KDB is faulty. If anyone wants to
> take a look I have some EBUCA logs at
> 
> http://www.tec.puv.fi/~s99137/kuvat/vax_logs/

I had a glance at them.  Your KDB50 isn't showing up at all.  How do the
lights on the edge of the card go during power on/reset?  You should, IIRC,
see one amber light per card after a somewhat lengthy delay (perhaps it's 
only on the primary card)  Also, the red edge LEDs should strobe when all is
well.  I know my KDB50 has always been flaky, even when we bought the 8200,
used in 1989, for $13,000.  What always seems to work is reseating the cards
in the VAXBI blackplane.  When it's acting up, it's obvious - the lights don't
look right.

Good luck with yours,

-ethan


=====
Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to
vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com

The original webpage address is still going away.  The 
permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/

See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf!  It's FREE.
http://im.yahoo.com/

From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 18 08:54:34 2000
From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:01 2005
Subject: Perkin-Elmer (was Re: AT&T 6300 PC)
Message-ID: <20001018135434.28635.qmail@web9504.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Bill Pechter <pechter@pechter.dyndns.org> wrote:
> Parity error on /dev/brain  Core dumped. The damned Unix Perkin-Elmer
> box limited them to 15 sectors/track. (WD 1001 controller)
> 
> 'Course the RLL took em to 25 (IIRC).

Is that a SystemIII box with dual 68000 processors, input buttons below
the monitor?  If so, I happen to have one of them.  We used to use it as
a code safe and C compiler for 68000-based projects.  Model 7350?  (Not
sure at the moment and it's in storage somewhere).

Fun box for its day.

-ethan


=====
Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to
vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com

The original webpage address is still going away.  The 
permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/

See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf!  It's FREE.
http://im.yahoo.com/

From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org  Wed Oct 18 09:07:57 2000
From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: Perkin-Elmer (was Re: AT&T 6300 PC)
In-Reply-To: <20001018135434.28635.qmail@web9504.mail.yahoo.com> from Ethan Dicks
 at "Oct 18, 2000 06:54:34 am"
Message-ID: <200010181407.e9IE7vr06167@bg-tc-ppp1083.monmouth.com>

> 
> --- Bill Pechter <pechter@pechter.dyndns.org> wrote:
> > Parity error on /dev/brain  Core dumped. The damned Unix Perkin-Elmer
> > box limited them to 15 sectors/track. (WD 1001 controller)
> > 
> > 'Course the RLL took em to 25 (IIRC).
> 
> Is that a SystemIII box with dual 68000 processors, input buttons below
> the monitor?  If so, I happen to have one of them.  We used to use it as
> a code safe and C compiler for 68000-based projects.  Model 7350?  (Not
> sure at the moment and it's in storage somewhere).
> 
> Fun box for its day.
> 
> -ethan


Actually, it only had a single cpu. (10 mhz).  Ran SysIII (UniPlus)
SysV (microXelos -- which had it's root in UniPlus SysV), and Idris.

The dual cpu stuff at the time was done by Sun (I think) and Masscomp
(their 500 series stuff).

Bill
-- 
bpechter@monmouth.com    | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10  
                         | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2
                         | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour 

From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org  Wed Oct 18 09:12:43 2000
From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: AT&T 6300 PC
In-Reply-To: <m13lbPH-000IyQC@p850ug1> from Tony Duell at "Oct 17, 2000 07:24:08
 pm"
Message-ID: <200010181412.e9IEChi06219@bg-tc-ppp1083.monmouth.com>

> >From what I remmeber this is an XT machine with an 8086 CPU (not the 8088 
> used in the IBM PC/XT) and thus the CPU has a 16 bit databus.
> 
> The expansion slots are standard 8 bit ISA and a second connector that is 
> _not_ the same as the 16 bit ISA extension (it's mounted much further 
> forward so there's no chance of you fitting the wrong sort of board). You 
> can use 8 bit ISA cards and there were a few special Olivetti cards that 
> used the 16 bit extension.
> 

Mostly the memory expansion stuff... I was surprised they didn't have a
16 bit disk controller that would've blown away the competition at the
time.

> Isn't it DIP switches on the CPU board (the one mounted chips-down under 
> the bottom cover)?

Yup.
> 
> -tony
> 
-- 

--Bill
bpechter@monmouth.com    | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10  
                         | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2
                         | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour 

From jhfine at idirect.com  Wed Oct 18 09:13:20 2000
From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010172107320.13149-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <39EDB000.FB8D1367@idirect.com>

>Sellam Ismail wrote:

> [Snip]
> Anyway, this should be off-line private VCF banter, so if you'd like to
> discuss it with me further, please e-mail me at <sellam@vintage.org>.

Jerome Fine replies:

Just thought that I might point out that the next two replies were an
indication that open discussions can serve to provide other points
of view.  I myself don't have anything else to add and I am not likely
to ever be close enough to a VCF in any case.  But I do agree that
some procedure needs to be found to "discourage" dumping and
"encourage" allowing free access to unsold items which the vendor
has no further use for, i.e. will lug the item home just to put it in the
dump at that end.

Sincerely yours,

Jerome Fine


From dankolb at ox.compsoc.net  Wed Oct 18 09:30:32 2000
From: dankolb at ox.compsoc.net (Dan Kolb)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: Perkin-Elmer (was Re: AT&T 6300 PC)
In-Reply-To: <20001018135434.28635.qmail@web9504.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20001018135434.28635.qmail@web9504.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00101815303205.06289@kronos>

So, seeing as this topic has moved on to Perkin Elmer, has anyone else 
got/used a Model 3600 Data Station?

Dan
-- 
dankolb@ox.compsoc.net  Oxford University Computer Society Secretary
 
--I reserve the right to be completely wrong about any comments or
  opinions expressed; don't trust everything you read above--  

From rmeenaks at olf.com  Wed Oct 18 09:47:18 2000
From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: SCSI-based floppy drives (3.5 or 5.25)
Message-ID: <39EDB7F6.8040607@olf.com>

Hi,

Is there any SCSI-based *floppy* drives either in 3.5 or 5.25 (3.5 
preferred) format?  I might need one for a project I am working on...

Ram


From KFergason at aol.com  Wed Oct 18 10:14:33 2000
From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: SCSI-based floppy drives (3.5 or 5.25)
Message-ID: <df.b282d9d.271f1859@aol.com>


One on EBAY at the moment.

Item #468816857

Know nothing about it, just happened to see it.

Kelly


In a message dated Wed, 18 Oct 2000 10:52:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, "Ram 
Meenakshisundaram" <rmeenaks@olf.com> writes:

<< Hi,

Is there any SCSI-based *floppy* drives either in 3.5 or 5.25 (3.5 
preferred) format?  I might need one for a project I am working on...

Ram

 >>



From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Wed Oct 18 10:15:50 2000
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: SCSI-based floppy drives (3.5 or 5.25)
In-Reply-To: <39EDB7F6.8040607@olf.com>
Message-ID: <39EDDAC6.21941.5D748F@localhost>


> Is there any SCSI-based *floppy* drives either in 3.5 or 5.25 (3.5 
> preferred) format?  I might need one for a project I am working on...

I think I have one or two OMPTI 51?? controllers left. They should
do the trick with one or two drives - 40/80 Tracks, SD/DD, SS/DS,
whatever you need - just no HD.

Gruss
H.

--
VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen
http://www.vintage.org/vcfe
http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

From rmeenaks at olf.com  Wed Oct 18 10:41:22 2000
From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: SCSI-based floppy drives (3.5 or 5.25)
References: <df.b282d9d.271f1859@aol.com>
Message-ID: <39EDC4A2.4040508@olf.com>

Hi,

Thanks for the tip, I saw that one and unfortunately it wont work for me 
as it is SCSI-2 :-(

Ram

KFergason@aol.com wrote:
> 
> One on EBAY at the moment.
> 
> Item #468816857
> 
> Know nothing about it, just happened to see it.
> 
> Kelly
> 
> 
> In a message dated Wed, 18 Oct 2000 10:52:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, "Ram 
> Meenakshisundaram" <rmeenaks@olf.com> writes:
> 
> << Hi,
> 
> Is there any SCSI-based *floppy* drives either in 3.5 or 5.25 (3.5 
> preferred) format?  I might need one for a project I am working on...
> 
> Ram
> 
>  >>
> 
> 
> 


From Mzthompson at aol.com  Wed Oct 18 10:41:58 2000
From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: Vax Station 3100
Message-ID: <d.b41de6e.271f1ec6@aol.com>

On Oct 17, 2000; Neil Cherry <ncherry@home.net> wrote:

> I just got my VS3100 and it has no drive (I expected that). It has a part
> number of PM20A-AB. It has ~16M of RAM, a Video ram sim and nothing else.
> What do I have? What RAM can this beast take? How large a drive can it take?

> The only other marking are BA42A and CPU KN01.

And then after some list discussion, he wrote:

> So now I'm really confused as to what I have.

You mention the number PM20A-AB.  That is the model number for a 
DECstation 3100.  Given the assumption that is what you actually
have, here is some info.

The DS3100 will take up to 24mb of RAM using 2mb SIMMS,
model no MS01-AA, part number 50-19464-02.  AKAIK, that is the only
memory module you can put in it.

Just behind the memory is the video frame buffer.  It is either
a VFB02 mono, or a VFB02 color (p/n 54-19469-01).

There is a mounting plate over top of the motherboard where you
can mount RZ2x drives and an RX23 floppy depending on which mounting
plate you have.

For some other info on the DS3100 see:

http://www.netbsd.org/Ports/pmax/models.html

An excerpt from that site:

Maximum of 24 MB RAM in 2 MB pairs (memory part number MS01-AA) 
1024x864 framebuffer option module, either mono (with memory part number 
VFB01) 
  or 8-bit color (with memory part number VFB02). Both provides 16x16 
hardware 
  sprite cursor 
SII SCSI-I controller with obscure external connector (HONDA68 male; wide 
  SCSI-3-like, but other gender) 
AMD LANCE 10 Mbit Ethernet interface with switchable AUI and BNC connectors 
DC7085 four-port serial chip (DZ-11 clone) 
Two MMJ-6 serial ports, with maximum speed of 9600 baud. One port has partial 
  modem control, the other has none. 
DIN-7 connector for mouse and MMJ-5 connector for keyboard. 
  (An adaption-connector can make these ports usable as RS-232 serial ports 
   with no modem control.)

> The only other marking are BA42A...

This is a SCSI expansion box for mounting RZ5x drives and various
tape drives (TZ30, etc.).  This box is generic enough that is usable
on other DEC machines, as well as other brands.

Are there any drives in the BA42, which by the way is aka SZ12

I have never heard of any other OS other than Ultrix, and according
to the above URL NetBSD has been ported to it.

Mike

From Mzthompson at aol.com  Wed Oct 18 10:41:54 2000
From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: NEC APC available
Message-ID: <7f.b06e1c3.271f1ec2@aol.com>

On Tue, 17 Oct 2000, Charles P. Hobbs <transit@lerctr.org> wrote:

On Tue, 17 Oct 2000, Mike Ford wrote:
> 
> > Hah! the local GoodWill computer store got nailed last year and now must
> > buy a copy of windows for EVERY PC they sell.
> 
> Gee, even a Mac?

Only if Bill Gates gets his way.

From rmeenaks at olf.com  Wed Oct 18 10:44:40 2000
From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: SCSI-based floppy drives (3.5 or 5.25)
References: <39EDDAC6.21941.5D748F@localhost>
Message-ID: <39EDC568.1060700@olf.com>

Hi Hans,

Basically I am in the process of creating a Transputer Standalone 
workstation and I might need a 3.5 *floppy* drive to round out the 
system.  Currently, I only have a SCSI Tram which is going to hold the 
hard drive for the system.  Adding a floppy drive to the chain will make 
it complete.  Will these drives work?  Tony, can you comment on this?

Ram

Hans Franke wrote:
> 
> > Is there any SCSI-based *floppy* drives either in 3.5 or 5.25 (3.5 
> > preferred) format?  I might need one for a project I am working on...
> 
> I think I have one or two OMPTI 51?? controllers left. They should
> do the trick with one or two drives - 40/80 Tracks, SD/DD, SS/DS,
> whatever you need - just no HD.
> 
> Gruss
> H.
> 
> --
> VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen
> http://www.vintage.org/vcfe
> http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe
> 
> 
> 


From ncherry at home.net  Wed Oct 18 10:53:33 2000
From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: Vax 11 -7/80 (plus equipment)
Message-ID: <39EDC77D.C3A18856@home.net>

On EBAY there is an 11 7/80 (currently 6 cents). The guy has no where to
put it and hopes someone can pick it up. It's located in Greencastle IN

Anyone?

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=470466736

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Wed Oct 18 11:00:19 2000
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: SCSI-based floppy drives (3.5 or 5.25)
In-Reply-To: <39EDB7F6.8040607@olf.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010180857510.17182-100000@lanshark.lanminds.com>

On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote:
> Hi,
> Is there any SCSI-based *floppy* drives either in 3.5 or 5.25 (3.5 
> preferred) format?  I might need one for a project I am working on...

Sorta.
The "Floptical" from Insite, etc. were available in SCSI.  Those support
both a 1.4M diskette as well as a 20M "special" diskette.

Is the LS-120 available in SCSI?  That supports a 1.4M as well as a "120"M
special diskette. 

There are others.
--
Fred Cisin                      cisin@xenosoft.com
XenoSoft                        http://www.xenosoft.com
PO Box 1236                     (510) 558-9366
Berkeley, CA 94701-1236


From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com  Wed Oct 18 11:13:29 2000
From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: Vax 11 -7/80 (plus equipment)
In-Reply-To: <39EDC77D.C3A18856@home.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001018091228.00a939c0@208.226.86.10>

Will J would probably like it, (its in his price range too! :-) The problem 
is getting it out of Indiana by the end of October. That's tough to do if 
you live out here on the West coast.

--Chuck

At 11:53 AM 10/18/00 -0400, you wrote:
>On EBAY there is an 11 7/80 (currently 6 cents). The guy has no where to
>put it and hopes someone can pick it up. It's located in Greencastle IN
>
>Anyone?



From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Wed Oct 18 12:17:42 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: SCSI-based floppy drives (3.5 or 5.25)
In-Reply-To: <39EDB7F6.8040607@olf.com>
Message-ID: <l03102800b6138b19763c@[192.168.1.4]>

>Is there any SCSI-based *floppy* drives either in 3.5 or 5.25 (3.5
>preferred) format?  I might need one for a project I am working on...

I can think of two; Dayna made the Daynafile which supported 5.25 and/or
3.5 floppies, and Floptical drives (sorry I don't remember much else).

SCSI II shouldn't be a problem, since SCSI is downward compatible as long
as you use the right adapters etc.



From rdd at smart.net  Wed Oct 18 11:18:18 2000
From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: Vax 11 -7/80 (plus equipment)
In-Reply-To: <39EDC77D.C3A18856@home.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010181213490.6530-100000@smarty.smart.net>

On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Neil Cherry wrote:

> On EBAY there is an 11 7/80 (currently 6 cents). The guy has no where to
> put it and hopes someone can pick it up. It's located in Greencastle IN

Wow!  Someone's going to get a nice system to play with!  Hopefully
somone with enough room, and an adequate electrical system, can rescue
this fun toy.  It would probably make a nice addition to someone's
living room... with heating oil prices rumored to be high this winter,
it may be a cost effective way to heat one's home. :-)

> Anyone?

Alas, not me.

--
Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of
All Rights Reserved            Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to
rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd   a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD 





From cisin at xenosoft.com  Wed Oct 18 11:23:21 2000
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: MS Laugh-In
In-Reply-To: <l03102802b6131a9cab46@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010180917050.18500-100000@lanshark.lanminds.com>

> >I take it the market doesn't yet trust W2000 and SP3 will be a while yet.
> Most people have no desire to update their OS from W95 or W98, not broken
> don't fix it attitude. 

"not broken"!??????!?????!????!????!????!?????!??
w95 or w98 is "not broken"???????????????????????
Consider, instead, the idea that some folk would not like to replace
broken with even more broken.


> Standing in line, and paying full price for beta
> software has lost its chic. 

W2000 is no longer Beta.
WinBlow Me is no longer Beta?


> Stability is currently more popular than
> features.

Wouldst that 'twere so.
MICROS~1 sales have not fallen off enough to support the premise that the
public has learned to desire stability.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred        cisin@xenosoft.com


From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Wed Oct 18 11:33:05 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: Vax 11 -7/80 (plus equipment)
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB215@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>

> On EBAY there is an 11 7/80 (currently 6 cents). The guy has no where to
> put it and hopes someone can pick it up. It's located in Greencastle IN
> 
> Anyone?

This is a very large system, right? 72-inch cabinets, 220v 3-phase juice,
etc? I ask because it's relatively close. 

-dq

From transit at lerctr.org  Wed Oct 18 11:39:08 2000
From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: Does anyone collect old software?
In-Reply-To: <39EDC568.1060700@olf.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SV4.3.96.001018112118.7348D-100000@lerami.lerctr.org>



I'm throwing out the following:

Arcada Backup Exec for Netware
Maynstream tape streaming software/manual (no hardware)
Delrina Comm Suite 2.1
Direct Access menu software (2 copies)
Crosstalk XVI
Procomm Plus
Norton Antivirus for Netware
Netware 4 + upgrade

If you're the least bit interested, let me know by the end of the day.
Since I'm just throwing this stuff away, I can let it go for the cost
of shipping. Beware, some of this stuff (particularly the netware ) is
heavy!



From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com  Wed Oct 18 11:52:41 2000
From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: Vax 11 -7/80 (plus equipment)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010181213490.6530-100000@smarty.smart.net>
Message-ID: <000a01c03923$d4b78750$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>

> Anyone?

I'm deliberately not bidding so as to save 
the winner his $$ for shipping.  Bonne Chance!

John A.

From lemay at cs.umn.edu  Wed Oct 18 11:57:32 2000
From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: Vax 11 -7/80 (plus equipment)
In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB215@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>
 from Douglas Quebbeman at "Oct 18, 2000 12:33:05 pm"
Message-ID: <200010181657.LAA04629@caesar.cs.umn.edu>

> > On EBAY there is an 11 7/80 (currently 6 cents). The guy has no where to
> > put it and hopes someone can pick it up. It's located in Greencastle IN
> > 
> > Anyone?
> 
> This is a very large system, right? 72-inch cabinets, 220v 3-phase juice,
> etc? I ask because it's relatively close. 
> 
> -dq
> 

Yes. I'm no expert on 11/780's, I've only worked on one example. But the
main cabinet was a huge dual width cabinet, and we had another dual
width abinet next to it for the hard drives. one piece dual width 
cabinets if I recall correctly.

-Lawrence LeMay

From sipke at wxs.nl  Wed Oct 18 12:12:13 2000
From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: Microvax II
References: <39E74D09.CB7C3E16@home.net> <20001015014708.28549.qmail@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <007f01c03926$8f887880$030101ac@boll.casema.net>

Like a TRW TDC 1010 ?

That is indeed a multipierchip and a fast one
that does the multiplying in hardware on the fly

Sipke de Wal


----- Original Message ----- 
From: Eric Smith <eric@brouhaha.com>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Cc: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2000 3:47 AM
Subject: Re: Microvax II


> Neil wrote:
> > It contains 1 68 pin DIP with TRW on it (I'm betting it's a Moto
> > 68K chip). It also contains a bunch of TTL, DAC's and what look like op
> 
> Nope.  It's almost certainly a multiplier chip.
> 


From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Wed Oct 18 12:53:09 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: Vax Station 3100
In-Reply-To: <39ED3E4A.A5F7AD28@home.net>
References: <200010180527.XAA08936@calico.litterbox.com>
Message-ID: <l03102804b61393bf7eca@[192.168.1.4]>

>According to message I found during a web search, I may have purchased a
>lemon. It states that the machine won't boot without a keyboard and mouse.
>Well I don't have any. I'll have to hunt them down and then load *BSD.

No idea on mice, but I still have some LK201 and LK401 DEC keyboards.



From r.stek at snet.net  Wed Oct 18 12:28:25 2000
From: r.stek at snet.net (Robert Stek)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: New finds .... 2 HP-85's!
Message-ID: <NEEEJCNDEHGPLCKLAOKBOELACFAA.r.stek@snet.net>

Sometimes the gods do smile upon us...   Last week ebay had someone from the
Hartford area put up a pallet of old computer / office "stuff."  Just wanted
to clear it out of an old warehouse that was about to be rented again.
Since it was local I was able to preview it - 3 old PS-2 towers, 3 older VGA
monitors, a Mac II, some answering machines, lots of power cords and cables,
etc.  Not much I wanted, so someone from Washington (state) won the lot for
about $15 (and good luck with shipping!).  I had a brief conversation with
the guy who was selling off this stuff and told him about my interests in
really old computers.  He said that he had taken home an HP-85 laser jet
printer which worked.  I told him that I didn't think that it was the right
model number.  But he said it was definitely a laser jet printer.  He called
me yesterday and told me it was really a LJ-III, that his son wanted a color
printer, and would I be interested in it for $50 since he had just put a new
toner cartridge in.  I called a friend who wanted it, and went to pick it up
today.

When I arrived, he said he figured out why he called it an HP-85.  He then
took me back into the warehouse and showed me TWO HP-85's, covered in dust
and grime, plus 3 unopened boxes of thermal printer paper, 2 rolls to a box,
plus two 3-ring binders marked HP 80 series.  He asked me if I wanted them.
How could I say no?

Turns out that the docs are two copies of the manuals for an HP-86B, but I
am not complaining!  Those beasties are heavier by five pounds just due to
the accumulated dirt and grime.  It will be several weekends from now before
they are clean enough to even think about a power-on smoke test.  In the
meantime, is there anyone out there who could trade some HP-85 docs (or
copies) for my HP-86B docs?  What kind of tape cartridges do I need? (as if
I think there's a chance in hell that the drives will still work!)  Never
having used one of these before, any advice or comments are welcome.

Bob Stek
Saver of Lost Sols


From richard at idcomm.com  Wed Oct 18 12:31:50 2000
From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: SCSI-based floppy drives (3.5 or 5.25)
References: <39EDDAC6.21941.5D748F@localhost> <39EDC568.1060700@olf.com>
Message-ID: <006501c03929$4d7f3ac0$0500fea9@winbook>

I seem to remember these as being bridge controllers from a SCSI host-port
to the FDD's.  The company I associate with this phonetic spelling has no
'P' in the name, i.e. it's OMTI, at that time a subsidiary of SMS.

Because of the vintage, it would be wise to get some documentation to ensure
that the firmware on your host board will communicate over the channel this
board requires.  I've got numerous SCSI<=>hard-disk boards from various
vendors of the time, all claiming to be SCSI-compatible, and not a one of
them will work on a SCSI adapter to a PC, be it from NCR, ADAPTEC, IOMEGA,
DTC, WD, or TRANTOR.  All of my boards were made before the original SCSI
standard was adopted in 1986.   The hardware appears to be compatible,
however, so if you have any flexibility at your host-adapter firmware end,
you may be able to use the OMTI boards.  That time-frame seems to align more
or less with the INMOS doc's I've had around from time to time regarding
their Transputers, so I'd say there's cause for hope, if not optimism.

Dick

----- Original Message -----
From: Ram Meenakshisundaram <rmeenaks@olf.com>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: SCSI-based floppy drives (3.5 or 5.25)


> Hi Hans,
>
> Basically I am in the process of creating a Transputer Standalone
> workstation and I might need a 3.5 *floppy* drive to round out the
> system.  Currently, I only have a SCSI Tram which is going to hold the
> hard drive for the system.  Adding a floppy drive to the chain will make
> it complete.  Will these drives work?  Tony, can you comment on this?
>
> Ram
>
> Hans Franke wrote:
> >
> > > Is there any SCSI-based *floppy* drives either in 3.5 or 5.25 (3.5
> > > preferred) format?  I might need one for a project I am working on...
> >
> > I think I have one or two OMPTI 51?? controllers left. They should
> > do the trick with one or two drives - 40/80 Tracks, SD/DD, SS/DS,
> > whatever you need - just no HD.
> >
> > Gruss
> > H.
> >
> > --
> > VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen
> > http://www.vintage.org/vcfe
> > http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe
> >
> >
> >
>
>


From mmcfadden at cmh.edu  Wed Oct 18 12:36:33 2000
From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: Dumping vs. selling vs. recycling (Long)
Message-ID: <E7AC96207335D411B1E7009027FC284906BD27@EXCHANGE2>

Dumping vs. selling vs. recycling

One of our local high schools has a "clothesline sale" every year.
Everybody donates all year long.  The students get the first purchase
chance, alumni second, general public third, and then all you can carry for
$5.  I sort, price, sell the computer/electronic stuff.  

If you really want the stuff then you will pay the asking price or take the
risk that someone else will.  When the price drops you have the chance
again.  Finally its $5 and it's yours.  Lastly its off to Goodwill, or the
computer surplus exchange.  I guarantee there is nothing but trash in the
dumpsters.  

Most of the obvious stuff sells fast, the older stuff or something that
needs repair may take awhile.  Since they have to pay to have the dumpsters
dumped by the trash service most of the stuff we can recycle we do.  The
biggest problem is that items may not be obviously valuable unless you know
what you have.  We had a Grid in a magnesium portable case that was priced
$10 because of no power supply.  It went for $5 eventually.

I was a little late the other day at the surplus and a HP MO disk jukebox
went to China for 7 cents/pound.  All of the stuff to China must be salvage
so they had sledgehammered it.  I did pick up two 3B2's for 10 cents/pound.

I need to check the surplus every week, no vacations allowed.

I'm of the belief that once you dump it, I'm saving you money by taking it
out of the trash.  I know that most trash haulers charge the customer by the
pickup and then they pay by the cubic yard at the dump/landfill.  I think we
can all agree that what we have here is a redistribution problem.  The cost
is shipping to redistribute  you trash/my treasure.  


Mike
mmcfadden@cmh.edu



From richard at idcomm.com  Wed Oct 18 12:39:39 2000
From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: Does anyone collect old software?
References: <Pine.SV4.3.96.001018112118.7348D-100000@lerami.lerctr.org>
Message-ID: <006f01c0392a$64da1f40$0500fea9@winbook>

Hi Charles!

I'm not exactly in themode of "collecting" but still, I'd be interested in
the Backup Exec for Netware, and the Maynstream software, since I have a
client with one of the Maynard drives (really an Exabyte 8200) and because I
have continued to use the Backup Exec. for Windows.

What's "direct access?"  I have a beta copy of Seagate's Direct Access that
allows sort-of drag-n-drop moves and copies to tape from disk.  Is that what
it is?  I was part of their beta test progam for several tape utilities.
They've spun off their tape software now, so I don't know how that bodes for
it.

When you say heavy, (re:Netware) I assume you mean around 20# or so, as
that's what the NW3.11 package I now use weighs.  Is that about right?

regards,

Dick

----- Original Message -----
From: Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) <transit@lerctr.org>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 10:39 AM
Subject: Does anyone collect old software?


>
>
> I'm throwing out the following:
>
> Arcada Backup Exec for Netware
> Maynstream tape streaming software/manual (no hardware)
> Delrina Comm Suite 2.1
> Direct Access menu software (2 copies)
> Crosstalk XVI
> Procomm Plus
> Norton Antivirus for Netware
> Netware 4 + upgrade
>
> If you're the least bit interested, let me know by the end of the day.
> Since I'm just throwing this stuff away, I can let it go for the cost
> of shipping. Beware, some of this stuff (particularly the netware ) is
> heavy!
>
>
>


From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Wed Oct 18 13:39:47 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: MS Laugh-In
In-Reply-To: 
 <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010180917050.18500-100000@lanshark.lanminds.com>
References: <l03102802b6131a9cab46@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <l03102807b6139b46440e@[192.168.1.4]>

>> >I take it the market doesn't yet trust W2000 and SP3 will be a while yet.
>> Most people have no desire to update their OS from W95 or W98, not broken
>> don't fix it attitude.
>
>"not broken"!??????!?????!????!????!????!?????!??
>w95 or w98 is "not broken"???????????????????????
>Consider, instead, the idea that some folk would not like to replace
>broken with even more broken.
>
>
>> Standing in line, and paying full price for beta
>> software has lost its chic.
>
>W2000 is no longer Beta.
>WinBlow Me is no longer Beta?
>
>
>> Stability is currently more popular than
>> features.
>
>Wouldst that 'twere so.
>MICROS~1 sales have not fallen off enough to support the premise that the
>public has learned to desire stability.

W95 and W98 are both working fine for me. I have been paranoid enough to
apply all the patches etc. (flash bios, etc.), and avoid any new MS
products until the bug fixes come out. Working to me means, the programs I
want to use will run, and right now they do.

Anything prior to about the second service pack release I call Beta.

MS can migrate ALL the new system vendors, so those OS sales are in the
can, what I don't think is happening are the upgrades of W9x to these
latest versions.



From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com  Wed Oct 18 12:48:21 2000
From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: New finds .... 2 HP-85's!
In-Reply-To: <NEEEJCNDEHGPLCKLAOKBOELACFAA.r.stek@snet.net>
Message-ID: <000c01c0392b$9c4a0ed0$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>


Anybody out there Ever refab HP rollers
   ( 41C+, 65, 67, 85, 86, etc. ) ??

Wish I could remember where I got some 
strong rubber contact cement a while back.
Seems to me that you could get by just by 
scraping off the old stuff and drying a 
few coats of that.

Alternate method: 
  short sections of the appropriate size
  lab tubing with epoxy backing.

John A.

From ysgdhio at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 18 12:46:16 2000
From: ysgdhio at yahoo.com (Andreas Meyer)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: Vax 11 -7/80 (plus equipment)
In-Reply-To: <39EDC77D.C3A18856@home.net>; from Neil Cherry on Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 11:53:33AM -0400
References: <39EDC77D.C3A18856@home.net>
Message-ID: <20001018134616.A19837@spies.com>

Neil Cherry writes:
> On EBAY there is an 11 7/80 (currently 6 cents).

Uh, oh. I see another project coming up...  :)
http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/~vance/www/vaxbar.html

Andy
-- 
Please trim your quotes. Please trim your quotes. Please trim your quotes. Ple  ase trim your quotes. Please trim your quotes. Please trim your quotes. Please  trim your quotes. Please trim your quotes. Please trim your quotes. Please tri  m your quotes. Please trim your quotes. Please trim your quotes. Please trim y  

From tarsi at binhost.com  Wed Oct 18 12:55:59 2000
From: tarsi at binhost.com (Tarsi)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: Vax 11 -7/80 (plus equipment)
In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB215@tegntserver.tegjeff
 .com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001018125536.024902e0@binhost.com>

At 12:33 PM 10/18/00 -0400, you wrote:
> > On EBAY there is an 11 7/80 (currently 6 cents). The guy has no where to
> > put it and hopes someone can pick it up. It's located in Greencastle IN
> >
> > Anyone?
>
>This is a very large system, right? 72-inch cabinets, 220v 3-phase juice,
>etc? I ask because it's relatively close.

*drool*

Wish I was close. :)

Tarsi
210


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Wed Oct 18 12:56:19 2000
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: SCSI-based floppy drives (3.5 or 5.25)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010180857510.17182-100000@lanshark.lanminds.com>
References: <39EDB7F6.8040607@olf.com>
Message-ID: <39EE0063.3048.F062A2@localhost>

> > Is there any SCSI-based *floppy* drives either in 3.5 or 5.25 (3.5 
> > preferred) format?  I might need one for a project I am working on...

> Sorta.
> The "Floptical" from Insite, etc. were available in SCSI.  Those support
> both a 1.4M diskette as well as a 20M "special" diskette.

> Is the LS-120 available in SCSI?  That supports a 1.4M as well as a "120"M
> special diskette. 

At first sight I did say no, but a check at winstation.com (a
SCSI dedicated company) did not only come up with SCSI FD drives
but also a LS120 SCSI ... quite great. Looks like this is the
right solution for you, Ram.

Gruss
H.
(I converted qour whole office to LS 120 - a great little thing)

--
VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen
http://www.vintage.org/vcfe
http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Wed Oct 18 13:03:05 2000
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: SCSI-based floppy drives (3.5 or 5.25)
In-Reply-To: <006501c03929$4d7f3ac0$0500fea9@winbook>
Message-ID: <39EE01F9.1513.F69398@localhost>

> > > > Is there any SCSI-based *floppy* drives either in 3.5 or 5.25 (3.5
> > > > preferred) format?  I might need one for a project I am working on...

> > > I think I have one or two OMPTI 51?? controllers left. They should
> > > do the trick with one or two drives - 40/80 Tracks, SD/DD, SS/DS,
> > > whatever you need - just no HD.

> > Basically I am in the process of creating a Transputer Standalone
> > workstation and I might need a 3.5 *floppy* drive to round out the
> > system.  Currently, I only have a SCSI Tram which is going to hold the
> > hard drive for the system.  Adding a floppy drive to the chain will make
> > it complete.  Will these drives work?  Tony, can you comment on this?

> I seem to remember these as being bridge controllers from a SCSI host-port
> to the FDD's.  The company I associate with this phonetic spelling has no
> 'P' in the name, i.e. it's OMTI, at that time a subsidiary of SMS.

> Because of the vintage, it would be wise to get some documentation to ensure
> that the firmware on your host board will communicate over the channel this
> board requires.  I've got numerous SCSI<=>hard-disk boards from various
> vendors of the time, all claiming to be SCSI-compatible, and not a one of
> them will work on a SCSI adapter to a PC, be it from NCR, ADAPTEC, IOMEGA,
> DTC, WD, or TRANTOR.  All of my boards were made before the original SCSI
> standard was adopted in 1986.   The hardware appears to be compatible,
> however, so if you have any flexibility at your host-adapter firmware end,
> you may be able to use the OMTI boards.  That time-frame seems to align more
> or less with the INMOS doc's I've had around from time to time regarding
> their Transputers, so I'd say there's cause for hope, if not optimism.

Of course you're right. I should sometimes reread my stuff ... its OMTI.
An I think we are talking about the same boards. These babies have been
quite reliable, and I still use at least two on a daily base, but regarding
his need to share the cable with modern style hard disk drives it isn't
a real good idea to use 'em for a new design. Maybe one of the Winstation
drives.

Gruss
H.


--
VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen
http://www.vintage.org/vcfe
http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

From swperk at earthlink.net  Wed Oct 18 13:04:24 2000
From: swperk at earthlink.net (Stan Perkins)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: HP card reader and tape drive repair (was: New finds .... 2 HP-85's!)
References: <000c01c0392b$9c4a0ed0$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>
Message-ID: <39EDE628.E927663B@earthlink.net>

John Allain wrote:
> 
> Anybody out there Ever refab HP rollers
>    ( 41C+, 65, 67, 85, 86, etc. ) ??
> 
> Wish I could remember where I got some
> strong rubber contact cement a while back.
> Seems to me that you could get by just by
> scraping off the old stuff and drying a
> few coats of that.
> 
> Alternate method:
>   short sections of the appropriate size
>   lab tubing with epoxy backing.
> 
> John A.

Actually, I've repaired my share of HP-41, -65, and -67 card readers
using short lengths of the silicone tubing that is used as fuel lines by
model airplane builders. Most hobhy shops have a good selection of this
tubing in various sizes and thicknesses, and one foot of it will repair
dozens of rollers!

I've used a different technique on the HP-85 tape drive (same as in the
HP 9815, 9825, etc.). I remove all of the goo from the drive wheel, and
cover the bare aluminum wheel with three layers of thin wall heat shrink
tubing. It seems to work fine, but be aware that the drive wheel is now
a bit harder than the original, so be sure not to leave your data tapes
idle in the drive for long periods or it *may* dent the wheel in the
cartridge (although I've never had this happen to me).
 
Regards,
Stan

From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 18 13:04:12 2000
From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: Vax 11 -7/80 (plus equipment)
Message-ID: <F59X9kOS6yDC0AHmKqy00007476@hotmail.com>

Heh, yes, it definetly is in my price range, but what would I do with 2 
11/780's? I only really need to have one...

Will J
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From tarsi at binhost.com  Wed Oct 18 13:12:09 2000
From: tarsi at binhost.com (Tarsi)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: Beginner into Micros, etc.
In-Reply-To: <200010181657.LAA04629@caesar.cs.umn.edu>
References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB215@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001018125945.02496c70@binhost.com>

<newbie>

Ok, bear with me here.  All this talk about VAXes and PDPs has me wanting 
to delve into this area of minicomputer collecting, mainframes, etc.  But 
so far my experience is with micro computers only, so this is a whole new 
ballgame, I'm sure.

But, I'm unsure where to start.  I mean, getting hardware in the micro 
realm is a matter of chance stops at the Goodwill store or something...plug 
it in, see if it works, etc.  No doubt in areas which have businesses which 
throw away minis the same is the case.  However, it looks as though places 
like Ebay et al will be my source for such things.

I don't know how the hardware follows conventions.  I mean, in the micro 
world, there are a lot of standards:  ISA, PCI, VGA, etc...so it makes some 
parts interchangeable and such.  I would imagine when you get into micros 
and such the parts aren't all that interchangeable, and some are downright 
nasty to obtain.

For example, I was looking at this auction today:

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=469865813

It's a VAXstation 3100.  I know nothing about it, but that doesn't mean I 
can't learn.  But it looks like it doesn't come with a monitor, keyboard, 
etc, so I'd have to get those.  And, of course, for the life of me I don't 
know what they take.  So, if I were to bid on it, I'd be getting something 
I didn't know about, get it home, and then watch it collect dust.

I guess I'm looking for advice from the list members to whom this stuff is 
"old hat".  How you shop around for systems of this nature, how easy it is 
to interchange hardware, where you manage to find your systems, what to 
look for, what to avoid.  Things like that.

Just trying to expand my collective horizons and see how far my knowledge 
of the subject can go.  Thanks for the help!

Tarsi
210

</newbie>


From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Wed Oct 18 14:29:39 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: New finds .... 2 HP-85's!
In-Reply-To: <NEEEJCNDEHGPLCKLAOKBOELACFAA.r.stek@snet.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001018142939.441f4b10@mailhost.intellistar.net>

Hi Bob,

  Nice find!  You can use DC-100 tapes in the HP-85s. You can alao use
DECtapes and reformat them. The HP-85 can format it's own tapes, the
command is INITIALIZE. You should check the drive wheel in the tape drive
first and see if it's sticky (almost a certainty). If it is then don't try
to use the tapes in it, the goo can get on the tape itself and get wound up
in the tape spool, It that happens then the tape will break when you try to
unwind that section again.  Check the archives for this mailing list, there
was a LONG discussion about interfaces and such for the HP_85 a couple of
months ago. There was also some discussion about fixing tape drives about 6
months ago. Keep looking around that warehouse, the fact that you got HP-86
books indicates that there is probably a couple of 86s lurking around there
somewhere. The HP-86 commands are a superset of those for the HP-85 so you
can use the 86 books for the 85. There's a chart posted at
"www.ebbsoft.com" that compares the HP85/86/87 features. With it you should
be able to figure which commands will work on the 85 without too much
difficulty.  HP-85 manuals are hard to come by.

   Joe

At 01:28 PM 10/18/00 -0400, you wrote:
>Sometimes the gods do smile upon us...   Last week ebay had someone from the
>Hartford area put up a pallet of old computer / office "stuff."  Just wanted
>to clear it out of an old warehouse that was about to be rented again.
>Since it was local I was able to preview it - 3 old PS-2 towers, 3 older VGA
>monitors, a Mac II, some answering machines, lots of power cords and cables,
>etc.  Not much I wanted, so someone from Washington (state) won the lot for
>about $15 (and good luck with shipping!).  I had a brief conversation with
>the guy who was selling off this stuff and told him about my interests in
>really old computers.  He said that he had taken home an HP-85 laser jet
>printer which worked.  I told him that I didn't think that it was the right
>model number.  But he said it was definitely a laser jet printer.  He called
>me yesterday and told me it was really a LJ-III, that his son wanted a color
>printer, and would I be interested in it for $50 since he had just put a new
>toner cartridge in.  I called a friend who wanted it, and went to pick it up
>today.
>
>When I arrived, he said he figured out why he called it an HP-85.  He then
>took me back into the warehouse and showed me TWO HP-85's, covered in dust
>and grime, plus 3 unopened boxes of thermal printer paper, 2 rolls to a box,
>plus two 3-ring binders marked HP 80 series.  He asked me if I wanted them.
>How could I say no?
>
>Turns out that the docs are two copies of the manuals for an HP-86B, but I
>am not complaining!  Those beasties are heavier by five pounds just due to
>the accumulated dirt and grime.  It will be several weekends from now before
>they are clean enough to even think about a power-on smoke test.  In the
>meantime, is there anyone out there who could trade some HP-85 docs (or
>copies) for my HP-86B docs?  What kind of tape cartridges do I need? (as if
>I think there's a chance in hell that the drives will still work!)  Never
>having used one of these before, any advice or comments are welcome.
>
>Bob Stek
>Saver of Lost Sols
>
>


From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Wed Oct 18 13:37:23 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: MS Laugh-In
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB219@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>

> >I take it the market doesn't yet trust W2000 and SP3 will be 
> a while yet.
> 
> Most people have no desire to update their OS from W95 or W98, not broken
> don't fix it attitude. Standing in line, and paying full price for beta
> software has lost its chic. Stability is currently more popular than
> features.

And that right there is the primary benefit of Windows 2000. Stability.
But that's OT until 2010, so to get us back on topic:

	Kaypro 2000

very heavy, very slow, looked nice tho...

-dq

From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Wed Oct 18 13:46:06 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: Does anyone collect old software?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SV4.3.96.001018112118.7348D-100000@lerami.lerctr.org>
References: <39EDC568.1060700@olf.com>
Message-ID: <l03102808b6139f4133e6@[192.168.1.4]>

>I'm throwing out the following:
>
>Arcada Backup Exec for Netware
>Maynstream tape streaming software/manual (no hardware)
>Delrina Comm Suite 2.1
>Direct Access menu software (2 copies)
>Crosstalk XVI
>Procomm Plus
>Norton Antivirus for Netware
>Netware 4 + upgrade
>
>If you're the least bit interested, let me know by the end of the day.
>Since I'm just throwing this stuff away, I can let it go for the cost
>of shipping. Beware, some of this stuff (particularly the netware ) is
>heavy!

I am a least bit interested, mostly in the tape thing, but I do like to
keep old software around. I am more, meet at a hamfest interested though
than shipping interested. ;)

Cheers, Mike Ford



From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 18 13:44:25 2000
From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: Perkin-Elmer (was Re: AT&T 6300 PC)
Message-ID: <20001018184425.28404.qmail@web9505.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Bill Pechter <pechter@pechter.dyndns.org> wrote:
> > Is that a SystemIII box with dual 68000 processors, 
> > 
> > -ethan
> 
> 
> Actually, it only had a single cpu. (10 mhz).  Ran SysIII (UniPlus)
> SysV (microXelos -- which had it's root in UniPlus SysV), and Idris.

Mine has SysIII/UniPlus.  Got all the docs and disks, too.
 
> The dual cpu stuff at the time was done by Sun (I think) and Masscomp
> (their 500 series stuff).

My apologies for not being clearer... IIRC, there are two 68000 CPU
chips in the box.  One runs the OS, the other is part of the memory
management system.  Since the 68000 itself (not the 68010 and up) 
does not save enough information on a page fault trap to restart
instructions, the way I was told the Perkin-Elmer worked was to have
the other CPU kick in on a page fault, load the page, then somehow
automagically get the main CPU to resume without loss of information,
etc.  Perhaps it holds off DTACK during a page fault, then releases
it when the page is ready to go; I don't know any technical details
and I never did anything with the kernel on it.  I was just a user
then an admin.   The hairiest thing we ever did to the box was to
replace a power supply and an HDA.

This sort of gyration was obviated by the 68010 since it _did_
fully support virtual memory.  Old Suns went that way, as did
the NCR tower I have.  I remember sticking in the '010 into
my Amiga 1000 for the 5% performance gain that came from the
two instruction cache/loop mode enhancement.  Very few programs
after AmigaDOS 1.2 used the now-supervisor-mode MOVEcc instructions
and in any case, there was an OS patch to add a trap handler for
that (but I digress wildly).

We got the Perkin-Elmer because it was a) cheap b) 68000-based.  I'm
happy to have rescued it at the end of its useful life eight years
ago.

-ethan



=====
Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to
vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com

The original webpage address is still going away.  The 
permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/

See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf!  It's FREE.
http://im.yahoo.com/

From cem14 at cornell.edu  Wed Oct 18 13:42:12 2000
From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: New finds .... 2 HP-85's!
References: <NEEEJCNDEHGPLCKLAOKBOELACFAA.r.stek@snet.net>
Message-ID: <39EDEF04.398E46EB@cornell.edu>

Robert Stek wrote:
> Turns out that the docs are two copies of the manuals for an HP-86B, but I
> am not complaining!  Those beasties are heavier by five pounds just due to
> the accumulated dirt and grime.  It will be several weekends from now before
> they are clean enough to even think about a power-on smoke test.  

Most likely, they will work. These machines are very resilient.

>In the
> meantime, is there anyone out there who could trade some HP-85 docs (or
> copies) for my HP-86B docs?  What kind of tape cartridges do I need? (as if
> I think there's a chance in hell that the drives will still work!)  Never
> having used one of these before, any advice or comments are welcome.

Well, first of all, do you have HP85A's or HP85B's ?  This is important
when it comes to the size of the memory modules that they can
hold in their back.  The HP85B cannot take the 16K memory module.

What kind of modules are there on the back of these machines?
If you have the HP82938 HPIL interface card, you can talk to
HPIL devices such as the HP9114 floppy drive, the HP3421 data
acquisition system.

There is also an HPIB interface, the HP82937 if I recall correctly.
With this you can talk to the HP9121 floppy drive, and any
other instrument with HPIB.  

Other interfaces that were available were GPIO, BCD, a modem...

The optional ROM tray also plugs in the back and can hold several 
ROM chips; some of the software available this way was the I/O module,
the plotting  module, the math module, the assembler module, ...

RAM modules came in different sizes; I have a 128K module in my 85B.

The tape drive uses DC-100 cartridges, but the pinch rollers
have almost surely disintegrated by now.  It is much better to find
an appropriate floppy drive.

The machine is relatively slow; I remember having timed the HP71,
HP75 and HP85; their speed had a ratio of 1x:2x:3x in the same order.
But the two first ones are cmos calculators.  Funny that the order
of appearance was exactly backwards.

Regarding the manuals:  The HP85B user manual is available
in one of the CD's available from the Museum of HP calculators;
see the catalog of documents at 

http://www.hpmuseum.org/software/swcd.htm



-- 
Carlos Murillo-Sanchez    email:  cem14@cornell.edu  
428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department
Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853

From steverob at hotoffice.com  Wed Oct 18 13:57:32 2000
From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: Beginner into Micros, etc.
Message-ID: <E01938173443D411827A0050040DC0D64742A0@hoexc101.hotoffice.com>

> I guess I'm looking for advice from the list members to whom 
> this stuff is "old hat".  How you shop around for systems of this nature, 
> how easy it is to interchange hardware, where you manage to find your 
> systems, what to look for, what to avoid.  Things like that.

I think the most important thing for the new collector is obtain "Complete"
systems. Trying to restore an unfamiliar system by piecing together
componets can be quite trying. I rarely collect a new system unless it has
the OS, and ALL the hardware.

Steve Robertson
<steverob@hotoffice.com>

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From kmar at lle.rochester.edu  Wed Oct 18 14:07:01 2000
From: kmar at lle.rochester.edu (Kenneth L. Marshall)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: Perkin-Elmer (was Re: AT&T 6300 PC)
In-Reply-To: <00101815303205.06289@kronos>
References: <20001018135434.28635.qmail@web9504.mail.yahoo.com>
 <20001018135434.28635.qmail@web9504.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001018145958.00b24a60@popserver.lle.rochester.edu>

Dan:

Yes, I have one with the operating system software. It was used as a data 
station and controller for a DSC 4 differential scanning calorimeter. It 
uses PETOS (Perkin Elmer Terminal Operating System) as the OS. I also have 
a PE model 7300 "professional computer" that was used as a system 
controller and data station or a spectrofluorimeter, and the original 
documentation and software. This unit uses IDRIS (Whiteside's Unix variant) 
as its OS.

The 3600 system is still working, the 7300 has either a bad disk controller 
or hard disk.

I need to find homes for these systems, as we are getting some new 
spectroscopy equipment here and I have to make room. They would be free for 
pickup in Rochester, NY.

There is also some HP 9000/300 workstation equipment that needs to go as well.




At 03:30 PM 10/18/2000 +0100, you wrote:
>So, seeing as this topic has moved on to Perkin Elmer, has anyone else
>got/used a Model 3600 Data Station?
>
>Dan
>--
>dankolb@ox.compsoc.net  Oxford University Computer Society Secretary
>
>--I reserve the right to be completely wrong about any comments or
>   opinions expressed; don't trust everything you read above--

Kenneth L. Marshall
Research Engineer, Optical Materials
Laboratory for Laser Energetics
University of Rochester
250 East River Road
Rochester, NY 14623
Phone:(716)-275-8247
Fax:  (716)-275-5960


From jhellige at earthlink.net  Wed Oct 18 14:16:49 2000
From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: TRS-80 PC-2 Printer/cassette interface
Message-ID: <a05001900b613a6e92ae9@[63.23.228.33]>

Hello,

	Does anyone have a need for a printer/cassette interface for 
a TRS-80 PC-2, Tandy cat# 26-3605?  I've had one that I picked up a 
while back, but it's just taking up space.  I believe I have the A/C 
PSU for it too.  I believe it works, as it did when I got it, but I 
have no way of testing it currently as I don't have a PC-2.  If 
interested, drop me a note.

	Jeff
-- 
            Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4
        Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems:
                 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Wed Oct 18 14:17:18 2000
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: MS Laugh-In
In-Reply-To: <l03102807b6139b46440e@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010181212450.10118-100000@lanshark.lanminds.com>

> W95 and W98 are both working fine for me. I have been paranoid enough to
> apply all the patches etc. (flash bios, etc.), and avoid any new MS
> products until the bug fixes come out. Working to me means, the programs I
> want to use will run, and right now they do.
There do exist some situations where 95 and 98 work acceptably.
and some were they don't.  One person's success does not
necessarily invalidate the existence of somebody else's problems.

> Anything prior to about the second service pack release I call Beta.

AH.  Your own personal definition of the terminology.


> >Wouldst that 'twere so.
> >MICROS~1 sales have not fallen off enough to support the premise that the
> >public has learned to desire stability.
> MS can migrate ALL the new system vendors, so those OS sales are in the
> can, what I don't think is happening are the upgrades of W9x to these
> latest versions.

That does not account for the strong retail sales of "Upgrade" editions.
I wish that you were right.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred        cisin@xenosoft.com


From sean at techcare.com  Wed Oct 18 14:16:45 2000
From: sean at techcare.com (Sean Caron)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: Vax Station 3100
References: <200010180527.XAA08936@calico.litterbox.com> <39ED3E4A.A5F7AD28@home.net>
Message-ID: <0f5601c03937$f53946d0$0c00000a@techcare.com>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Neil Cherry" <ncherry@home.net>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 2:08 AM
Subject: Re: Vax Station 3100


> Jim Strickland wrote:
> >
> > Decstations were Ultrix-only machines based around the MIPS
archetecture.  They
> > were considerably faster than comparably priced vaxen (if memory serves)
and
> > made fine workstations and light fileservers.  But no, it won't run VMS.
> >
>
> According to message I found during a web search, I may have purchased a
> lemon. It states that the machine won't boot without a keyboard and mouse.
> Well I don't have any. I'll have to hunt them down and then load *BSD.
>
> --
> Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
> http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
> http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
> http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge)
>

You may have read about the insidious mouse port dependency on these
machines :)

These systems must have either a mouse or a "mouse port terminator"
installed on
them to boot NetBSD (and others, perhaps) from the graphics console. I think
more
information on them can be found on the NetBSD/pmax Web site, or you could
also
probably look it up by typing something like "DECstation 3100 mouse
terminator"
into your favorite search engine.

I'm not sure if its a problem if you boot the system off a serial console
(which, incidentially,
you can do; just hook up a terminal to the port with the printer icon next
to it and flip the
little DIP switch S3 on the back of the system - then you don't even need a
mouse,
keyboard, or monitor). Unfortunately, unless you have a MMJ terminal
(VT3/400 series)
you'll need to either buy or build a converter to break out MMJ to something
more
useful. The only problem is that (out here, at least), MMJ plugs are just
about impossible
to find and the converters (MMJ->DB25) cost $25 from DEC. Ouch!

Don't get rid of it though! These are great little machines for light
network serving using
something like NetBSD (which runs on them well;
http://www.netbsd.org/Ports/pmax).
I've got one in my basement with 24Mb RAM, color framebuffer to a VR290
monitor,
and RZ23 and RZ24 hard disks in it. It works like a charm!

--Sean Caron (root@diablonet.net) | http://www.diablonet.net


From THETechnoid at home.com  Wed Oct 18 14:22:34 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: Vaxstation 4000/60 help please
In-Reply-To: <E01938173443D411827A0050040DC0D64742A0@hoexc101.hotoffice.com>
Message-ID: <20001018192042.FIKK5267.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

I've got one of the Vaxstation 4000/60 machines from CPB.

It seems a nice box.  The monitor is excellent as allways (trinitron).

I've got Ovms hobbyist on it now.

Problems are :

I don't know anything about VMS.

VMS boots and all, but it does not recognize my framebuffer and so won't
run DecWindows yet.  How do I fix that?

Of all the drives I've tried, the only one that worked was an old Quantum
210mb.  I'd like more flexibility.  Any hints on what I need to do to a
drive to make it run on this machine?  They generally are 'seen', but VMS
bombs when I try to install.

Even though I've got cdrom drives that are jumperable for 512byte blocks,
none worked properly but the original RRD40 which is slower than molasis
in February, the only RRD40 we have got, and it requires some wierd cart I
don't have.  The only way I can change cd's is to disassemble the drive,
draw the disk out with hemostats, and slip the replacement in.

Basicly, I need a primer on VMS, and someone to corrospond with who knows
his/her stuff.

Thanks

Jeff

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From kdavis at ndx.net  Wed Oct 18 14:35:14 2000
From: kdavis at ndx.net (Kirk B. Davis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:02 2005
Subject: Beginner into Micros, etc.
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001018125945.02496c70@binhost.com> from "Tarsi" at Oct 18, 2000 01:12:09 PM
Message-ID: <200010181935.e9IJZEQ03101@bender.ndx.net>

> But, I'm unsure where to start.  I mean, getting hardware in the micro 
> realm is a matter of chance stops at the Goodwill store or something...plug 
> it in, see if it works, etc.  No doubt in areas which have businesses which 
> throw away minis the same is the case.  However, it looks as though places 
> like Ebay et al will be my source for such things.
> 
> I don't know how the hardware follows conventions.  I mean, in the micro 
> world, there are a lot of standards:  ISA, PCI, VGA, etc...so it makes some 
> parts interchangeable and such.  I would imagine when you get into micros 
> and such the parts aren't all that interchangeable, and some are downright 
> nasty to obtain.
> 
> For example, I was looking at this auction today:
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=469865813
> 
> It's a VAXstation 3100.  I know nothing about it, but that doesn't mean I 
> can't learn.  But it looks like it doesn't come with a monitor, keyboard, 
> etc, so I'd have to get those.  And, of course, for the life of me I don't 
> know what they take.  So, if I were to bid on it, I'd be getting something 
> I didn't know about, get it home, and then watch it collect dust.
> 

Few quick thoughts.. Your right about this item. If you are just getting into
collecting, things like this are good if you can get them real cheap and have
a place to stash them. After about a year you start getting enough different
parts to put things together.

I was at the same point as you about a year and a half ago. After some
seaching I started running across stuff and now I'm considering getting
a storage place for some of it. Sellam has written a good intro on finding
stuff on www.vintage.org. Be persistant and piles of cheap stuff will
turn up.

You may also consider paying a larger sum for a fulling working system with
disks, docs, etc to get you going for now. It took me over a year to boot
my first PDP which was annoying.

Kirk



From ncherry at home.net  Wed Oct 18 14:38:24 2000
From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: Vax Station 3100
References: <200010180527.XAA08936@calico.litterbox.com> <39ED3E4A.A5F7AD28@home.net> <0f5601c03937$f53946d0$0c00000a@techcare.com>
Message-ID: <39EDFC30.55755A0B@home.net>

Sean Caron wrote:

> From: "Neil Cherry" <ncherry@home.net>

> > According to message I found during a web search, I may have purchased a
> > lemon. It states that the machine won't boot without a keyboard and mouse.
> > Well I don't have any. I'll have to hunt them down and then load *BSD.

> You may have read about the insidious mouse port dependency on these
> machines :)
> 
> These systems must have either a mouse or a "mouse port terminator"
> installed on
> them to boot NetBSD (and others, perhaps) from the graphics console. I think
> more
> information on them can be found on the NetBSD/pmax Web site, or you could
> also
> probably look it up by typing something like "DECstation 3100 mouse
> terminator"
> into your favorite search engine.
> 
> I'm not sure if its a problem if you boot the system off a serial console
> (which, incidentially,
> you can do; just hook up a terminal to the port with the printer icon next
> to it and flip the
> little DIP switch S3 on the back of the system - then you don't even need a
> mouse,
> keyboard, or monitor). Unfortunately, unless you have a MMJ terminal
> (VT3/400 series)
> you'll need to either buy or build a converter to break out MMJ to something
> more
> useful. The only problem is that (out here, at least), MMJ plugs are just
> about impossible
> to find and the converters (MMJ->DB25) cost $25 from DEC. Ouch!

2 ways around that problem, minor surgery (exacto blade) or major surgery
(remove MMJ and solder in appropriate 6 pin RJ outlet). I think I'll
start with the exacto first. Actually there is a 3rd method I'll try first
and that is the exacto the RJ11 plug so it no longer has the tab on it.

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

From foo at siconic.com  Wed Oct 18 13:42:53 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: Beginner into Micros, etc.
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001018125945.02496c70@binhost.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010181137180.14246-100000@siconic.com>

On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Tarsi wrote:

> But, I'm unsure where to start.  I mean, getting hardware in the micro
> realm is a matter of chance stops at the Goodwill store or
> something...plug it in, see if it works, etc.  No doubt in areas which
> have businesses which throw away minis the same is the case.  
> However, it looks as though places like Ebay et al will be my source
> for such things.

Here's an article I wrote earlier this year on where to find stuff, aptly
titled "Find Old Computers".  Perfect for the beginning collector:

    http://www.vintage.org/cgi-bin/content.pl?id=001
 
> I don't know how the hardware follows conventions.  I mean, in the micro 
> world, there are a lot of standards:  ISA, PCI, VGA, etc...so it makes some 
> parts interchangeable and such.  I would imagine when you get into micros 
> and such the parts aren't all that interchangeable, and some are downright 
> nasty to obtain.

I assume you meant "minis" in the last sentence, but even micros before
the IBM PC standardization basically homogenized the computer world, you
had a lot of uninterchangeable computers.

> I guess I'm looking for advice from the list members to whom this stuff is 
> "old hat".  How you shop around for systems of this nature, how easy it is 
> to interchange hardware, where you manage to find your systems, what to 
> look for, what to avoid.  Things like that.

Read the article referenced above, but what you really need is a good
surplus shop in your area where this stuff will filter in.  And your best
resource for learning about what you've found or acquired is this very
list.  Ask away.  There is an amazing amount of knowledge floating around
in here.  I think historically the number of questions posed that have
gone unanswered is less than one percent.

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org



From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net  Wed Oct 18 14:54:50 2000
From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (FBA)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: New finds .... 2 HP-85's!
Message-ID: <008601c0393d$4f72b640$c834d986@wkchafauradon.beckman.com>

Or you can visit the Sanctuary (my very own site) at
http://people.mn.mediaone.net/fauradon/index.html
and check the "Tech Info"-> "BASIC" part for 7 pages of HP-85 BASIC Syntax

Francois


>can use the 86 books for the 85. There's a chart posted at
>"www.ebbsoft.com" that compares the HP85/86/87 features. With it you should
>be able to figure which commands will work on the 85 without too much
>difficulty.  HP-85 manuals are hard to come by.
>
>   Joe
>
>


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Oct 18 13:44:34 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: VAX Ethernet (was Re: IDE on Qbus (was Re: Microvax II))
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001017200351.00a3ec40@208.226.86.10> from "Chuck McManis" at Oct 17, 0 08:05:12 pm
Message-ID: <m13lyCc-000IyPC@p850ug1>

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Oct 18 15:17:01 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: Beginner into Micros, etc.
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001018125945.02496c70@binhost.com> from "Tarsi" at Oct 18, 0 01:12:09 pm
Message-ID: <m13lze6-000IyVC@p850ug1>

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Oct 18 14:56:06 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: SCSI-based floppy drives (3.5 or 5.25)
In-Reply-To: <39EDDAC6.21941.5D748F@localhost> from "Hans Franke" at Oct 18, 0 05:15:50 pm
Message-ID: <m13lzJp-000IyRC@p850ug1>

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Oct 18 15:01:03 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: New finds .... 2 HP-85's!
In-Reply-To: <000c01c0392b$9c4a0ed0$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com> from "John Allain" at Oct 18, 0 01:48:21 pm
Message-ID: <m13lzOc-000IySC@p850ug1>

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From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org  Wed Oct 18 15:46:27 2000
From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: Vax Station 3100
In-Reply-To: <39EDFC30.55755A0B@home.net> from Neil Cherry at "Oct 18, 2000 03:38:24
 pm"
Message-ID: <200010182046.e9IKkRH07108@bg-tc-ppp737.monmouth.com>

> 2 ways around that problem, minor surgery (exacto blade) or major surgery
> (remove MMJ and solder in appropriate 6 pin RJ outlet). I think I'll
> start with the exacto first. Actually there is a 3rd method I'll try first
> and that is the exacto the RJ11 plug so it no longer has the tab on it.
> 
> -- 
> Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
> http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
> http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
> http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

Actually you can get MMJ crimpers and MMJ cables pretty cheap...

Check altex electronics http;//www.altex.com (I think)...

-- 
bpechter@monmouth.com    | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10  
                         | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2
                         | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour 

From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org  Wed Oct 18 15:53:49 2000
From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: Perkin-Elmer (was Re: AT&T 6300 PC)
In-Reply-To: <20001018184425.28404.qmail@web9505.mail.yahoo.com> from Ethan Dicks
 at "Oct 18, 2000 11:44:25 am"
Message-ID: <200010182053.e9IKrn307153@bg-tc-ppp737.monmouth.com>

> 
> --- Bill Pechter <pechter@pechter.dyndns.org> wrote:
> > > Is that a SystemIII box with dual 68000 processors, 
> > > 
> > > -ethan
> > 
> > 
> > Actually, it only had a single cpu. (10 mhz).  Ran SysIII (UniPlus)
> > SysV (microXelos -- which had it's root in UniPlus SysV), and Idris.
> 
> Mine has SysIII/UniPlus.  Got all the docs and disks, too.
>  
> > The dual cpu stuff at the time was done by Sun (I think) and Masscomp
> > (their 500 series stuff).
> 
> My apologies for not being clearer... IIRC, there are two 68000 CPU
> chips in the box.  One runs the OS, the other is part of the memory
> management system.
> 
> -ethan
> 


I don't believe so... that was a trick on some early workstations
MMU (i.e. Sun, I think) where the second  machine kicks the first one
on a non-existant page fault and faults in the page to virtual memory.

I believe the 7300 and 7350 didn't do that.  They had no virtual
paged memory and just did slow swapping to disk.

The Concurrent/Perkin Elmer XF200 also was similar, it didn't 
have the graphics and had more MFM disks and the same 8mhz (I think)
68kcpu.

The microXelos would also boot and recognize the presence of a 68010
cpu and a friend swapped cpu's to improve the dismal performance.

The biggest performance problem was the video which ate the hell out of
the Versabus bandwidth.

I'd have loved to see a VME version with a 68020... Oh yeah, it was
called a Sun 3...  

The rumor is Perkin Elmer didn't want to pay enough to keep the design
going after they spun off Concurrent.. I believe they went to DEC
hardware like MicroVaxen to do the LIMS lab control.

Bill

-- 
bpechter@monmouth.com    | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10  
                         | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2
                         | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour 

From tarsi at binhost.com  Wed Oct 18 16:16:11 2000
From: tarsi at binhost.com (Tarsi)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: Beginner into Micros, etc.
In-Reply-To: <m13lze6-000IyVC@p850ug1>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001018125945.02496c70@binhost.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001018161302.024962b0@binhost.com>


>Err, I never 'plug it in, see if it works', not even with micros. And
>certainly not with minis. You need to take things slowly, check the PSU,
>then a minimal system, then add peripherals checking as you go. Otherwise
>you might do a lot of damage to your new toy.

Oh, absolutely, I didn't mean it quite like that.  I usually take it apart, 
clean all cards and peripherals, blow the dust out, make sure everything is 
seated well, before attempting the first boot.  But, at least with micros, 
it's kinda a learn-as-you-go how they work and were put together, and since 
I've dealt with a lot of micros by now, my knowledge transfers from one to 
the next on technologies, drive characteristics, OSes, etc.  I don't think 
as much knowledge will transfer over to minis, and that's my concern and 
ignorance.

>Err, those are modern standards for one particular type of micro. Repeat
>after me 'All the world is not a PC' (especially not on this list).

Right, as per above, my familiarity is mostly with the PC and vintage 
Macintosh hardware, and I have little to no mini experience.  Kinda feeling 
blind ATM.

Thanks for the advice.

Tarsi
210


From foo at siconic.com  Wed Oct 18 15:12:36 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: Beginner into Micros, etc.
In-Reply-To: <m13lze6-000IyVC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010181304480.14475-100000@siconic.com>

On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Tony Duell wrote:

> I started with a few incomplete machines and over the years I found the 
> missing bits, made up some parts from scratch, modified things to work, 
> etc. 

This theme seems to keep popping up.

This is definitely a hobby of time, in many regards.  We're playing with
computers that were built a long time ago.  We're looking at computers as
they've progressed and changed over time.  And it takes time to seek out
and find old computers.

Besides money, you must also invest time in searching out old computers.

If you've only been at this for a few short months and are frustrated
because you haven't found many old computers, don't be.  You are still
just a beginner.  It takes years to assemble a significant collection.  

Have patience.  Take your time :)

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From pete at dunnington.u-net.com  Wed Oct 18 16:18:12 2000
From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: SCSI-based floppy drives (3.5 or 5.25)
In-Reply-To: "Ram Meenakshisundaram" <rmeenaks@olf.com>
        "SCSI-based floppy drives (3.5 or 5.25)" (Oct 18, 10:47)
References: <39EDB7F6.8040607@olf.com>
Message-ID: <10010182218.ZM861@indy.dunnington.u-net.com>

On Oct 18, 10:47, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Is there any SCSI-based *floppy* drives either in 3.5 or 5.25 (3.5
> preferred) format?  I might need one for a project I am working on...

The well-known ones seem to be the flopticals made by Insite (20MB SCSI-1,
but can also read/write 1.44M and 720K floppies).  They turn up from time
to time, usually quite cheap.  However, TEAC made a 3.5" SCSI floppy (with
motorised eject) -- sorry, I can't remember the TEAC part number -- which
SGI used in some Indigo workstations.  They also used it in an external box
for Indigos and Indys.  DEC made an adaptor for RX23 (3.5") drives, which I
know works wth generic 3.5" floppies (I've got one somewhere); there was
also an adaptor by a German company called Eltec.

BTW, SCSI-2 should work fine on a SCSI-1 system.  You just won't get some
of the extra twiddly SCSI-2 features.

-- 

Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Dept. of Computer Science
						University of York

From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org  Wed Oct 18 16:40:04 2000
From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: Not supported 8-(
In-Reply-To: <m13lyCc-000IyPC@p850ug1> from Tony Duell at "Oct 18, 2000 07:44:34
 pm"
Message-ID: <200010182140.e9ILe4C07322@bg-tc-ppp737.monmouth.com>

> > 
> >  > Isn't there an issue with VMS obsoleting the DEQNA?
> > 
> > Somewhere I read a service note that said it was not supported on 
> > processors later than the KA640/KA650.
> 
> My experience with DEC hardware is that there's a big difference between 
> 'not supported' and 'doesn't work'. Many things I've done are not 
> supported, meaning you couldn't get DEC to configure and maintain a 
> system like that, and if it doesn't work then it's not DEC's fault, but 
> none-the-less they work fine. 
> 
> I suspect (without justification) that the DEQNA works fine on later 
> processors, but that DEC have simply not tested it and aren't prepared to 
> state definitely that it works.
> 
> -tony

That's the DEC and IBM definition of "not supported."

Unlike the Sun (and sometimes Microsoft) meaning of the code to run this
stuff has been deleted from the build tree and we won't tell you how to 
get this driver to work... EVER.

You see the SMC WD8xxx driver support has been removed from Solaris 8
(along with all the ISA ethernet drivers) which were removed partly in
Solaris 7... All were in Solaris 2.6 and were removed so Sun wouldn't
have to deal with tech support issues on the ugly ISA bus.

(Also they removed Sun4c architecture from Solaris 7 orphaning 
my Sparc2 class boxes).

#$%^& SUN.  I miss good old DEC.

(which would often consider special systems and time and materials
support for things not officially supported).

Bill

-- 
bpechter@monmouth.com    | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10  
                         | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2
                         | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour 

From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Wed Oct 18 17:07:24 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: Free Intel MDS
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001018170724.28e7ad62@mailhost.intellistar.net>

  I was searching for more info on the Inel MDS and found this ad for a
free one. "http://www.dazed.org/blazermate/". There just one hitch, it's
located in NSW, Australia.  I don't know any more about it. If someone
picks it up leet me know.

    Joe


From THETechnoid at home.com  Wed Oct 18 16:47:24 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: SCSI-based floppy drives (3.5 or 5.25)
In-Reply-To: <10010182218.ZM861@indy.dunnington.u-net.com>
Message-ID: <20001018213923.NPFX5267.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

Ed Kirby has some external SCSI floppy drives for 88k Aviion machines. 
Might want to give him a call.  828-274-5963

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From THETechnoid at home.com  Wed Oct 18 16:49:33 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: Beginner into Micros, etc.
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001018161302.024962b0@binhost.com>
Message-ID: <20001018214128.NSTZ5267.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

What was that survey we filled out?  There was lots of good advice on
collecting in general.  It is on a website out there somewhere....


Regards,

Jeff

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Oct 18 16:24:07 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: Beginner into Micros, etc.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010181304480.14475-100000@siconic.com> from "Sellam Ismail" at Oct 18, 0 01:12:36 pm
Message-ID: <m13m0h0-000IyHC@p850ug1>

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Oct 18 16:30:53 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: Beginner into Micros, etc.
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001018161302.024962b0@binhost.com> from "Tarsi" at Oct 18, 0 04:16:11 pm
Message-ID: <m13m0nY-000IyJC@p850ug1>

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From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 18 16:50:16 2000
From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: VAX Ethernet (was Re: IDE on Qbus (was Re: Microvax II))
Message-ID: <20001018215016.19603.qmail@web9504.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Tony Duell <ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > 
> >  > Isn't there an issue with VMS obsoleting the DEQNA?
> > 
> I suspect (without justification) that the DEQNA works fine on later 
> processors, but that DEC have simply not tested it and aren't prepared to 
> state definitely that it works.

I'm not worried about processor compatibility (although I have personally
been down the road with the VAX-4000 line and how DEC violated their own
earlier Qbus specs because the newer processors got too complicated and
too far away from direct bus control... several older cards don't play
well with, for example, the TLZ04 controller because it grabs the bus
for too long and they timeout)

What I'm concerned about is OS compatibility.  I have a mix of VMS 5.0,
VMS 5.5 and VMS 6.2 stuff here.  Essentially, I want the newest stuff
I can get and still have the DEQNA work with it.  Ultimately, through
DEC layered products or third-party products or whatever, I want to
have a Qbus VAX with TCP/IP over Ethernet so I can spin up various
older media and perform physical backups to a machine that can cut
CD-ROMs.  I'd rather not push this quantity of data over a serial
line - it'll take a stunningly long time.  I'm talking about a closet's
worth of old media (16MT9, RK05, RL01/2...)  Several CDs worth.  Not
what I want to push over 9600 baud.

Is there any sort of driver compatibility chart for VMS running around
anymore?

Thanks,

-ethan



=====
Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to
vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com

The original webpage address is still going away.  The 
permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/

See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf!  It's FREE.
http://im.yahoo.com/

From rivie at teraglobal.com  Wed Oct 18 16:50:42 2000
From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: SCSI-based floppy drives (3.5 or 5.25)
In-Reply-To: <10010182218.ZM861@indy.dunnington.u-net.com>
References: <39EDB7F6.8040607@olf.com>
 <10010182218.ZM861@indy.dunnington.u-net.com>
Message-ID: <v04210100b613cb928056@[10.2.0.84]>

>  DEC made an adaptor for RX23 (3.5") drives, which I
>know works wth generic 3.5" floppies (I've got one somewhere);

The DEC adapter also works with 5.25" high density drives.

--
Roger Ivie
rivie@teraglobal.com
Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation

From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Wed Oct 18 18:03:40 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: VAX Ethernet (was Re: IDE on Qbus (was Re: Microvax II))
Message-ID: <004601c03958$0cc6e300$69749a8d@ajp166>

From: Ethan Dicks <ethan_dicks@yahoo.com>


>Well my recent (last night) experience suggests that what you remember
is
>true.  I was refitting my BA123 with a CPU, 8Mb of PMI memory, my
one-and-
>only DEQNA and an RQDX3 and stuffed into it a bootable RD54 from a
VS2000
>that happens to have VMS 5.5 and some stuff to fire up a LAT server and
>clustering.  The startup bitched mightily about the presence of the
DEQNA
>and casual reading of the error messages seemed to tell me that VMS 5.5
>cluster manager did *not* like it one bit.


the DEQNA went unsupported because of clustering.  Part of the problem
was
packet errors that required a driver that encapsulated data to insure the
errors would be caught.  That was a huge perfomance hit on eithernet
which
by disk standards then was slower, and didn't need further slowing.  That
added to the DEQNA being an really old PDP-11 design that outlived
a lot of revs (L5 is the last I know of) meant a newer and less cranky
design was wanting.

I'd not use it in a cluster unless I had to but V5.5 was when clusters
started to protest (they can be forced).

>Because the machine is standalone at the moment, I didn't pay much
attention
>to it all.  Eventually, I do need to get something working with Qbus and
>Ethernet (so I can begin to make physical backups of some 9 track tapes
I
>have sitting here).  I'll have to either stuff a KDA50 in this beast and
>use my MDA SDI<->ESDI box (dual 1.2Mb disks) or hang a couple of RD53s
>off the RQDX3 and limit myself to one or two tapes at a time before
shooting
>them down the pipe.


Don't cluster them, make it peer to peer and it should go fine.

>Ah the good old days...


Look at the bright side... unlike winders we know what the solution is,
winders may also have that knowledge in 10 years.

   As if we'd care by then. ;)

Allison




From nabil at SpiritOne.com  Wed Oct 18 18:13:22 2000
From: nabil at SpiritOne.com (Aaron Nabil)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
In-Reply-To: <39EDAC3E.6717.19D200B4@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.21.0010181531430.24201-100000@ridge.spiritone.com>

On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Hans Franke wrote:
> > Aaron Nabil <nabil@SpiritOne.com>
> > I scrap (well, actually throw away) a HUGE amount of stuff rather than
> > "sell it for less than I think it's worth".  No, I'm not in the
> > business, I'm just a hobbiest, but if I can have valid reasons for
> > throwing things away instead of selling them at a lower price (or giving
> > them away), I can certainly imagine that they do too.  It's uncalled for
> > ascribing "poor character" to people unless you also happen to be a mind
> > reader, they might have perfectly valid reasons for doing what they do.
> 
> A perfectly healthy state of mind of one person may be total
> insanity to another, and your expression may need some additional
> backup to be considered by most people. Throwing away goods
> istead of selling is more damaging to the vendor than selling
> at a lower price (even when lower than the cost to produce) .
> This is valid for most economic situations, eventualy except
> communist systems and EU buerocracy.

Again, ascribing "state of mind" to people just because they don't
volunteer their rationale to you is silly.  You aren't the one making
the decision, they don't have an obligation to you to "explain
themselves" to you.

As a general rule, you can expect people to act in their own best
interest.  If someone thinks that reducing the price is in their interest,
that's what they will do.  If they think throwing it in the dumpster is in
their best interest, that's what they will do.

I'm not sure which of my expressions needs backup, but first and foremost,
it's my stuff, I don't need to "explain" my actions, you can trust that
being a reasonable person I'm going to act in my best interests.  As for
throwing away things being "less damaging" than selling them, I'll
include a couple illustrations from "real life" to show how that it may
not be the case.  But what is important is that this isn't intended as an
exautive list, I'm simply pointing out that people can have valid reasons
for what they do even if they don't share them with you.

 Local high-tech company T has a surplus sales store, but instead of
 selling their own equipment at the store, they scrap it and only get
 a tiny fraction of the value back.  They do this to avoid competing with
 their own new products.

 Hobbiest A has acquired most of the remaining sets of a particular test
 set that is in high demand on the surplus market.  He has a large number
 of junk units that he could sell on Ebay or to other users for a few
 hundred dollars, but they would get fixed up and sold in competition with
 his really nice units (worth $1000), so he throws them away instead.  


And I'll make one up...

 Vendor X hauls a bunch of stuff down to VCF n, some of which he sells.  
People are interested in what he has, but aren't willing to pay what he
thinks are reasonable prices.  He has a warehouse of the stuff, realizes
that there is going to be a VCF n+1 and that the same people will be there
and the value of his warehouse of stuff will only go up.  If he gives his
stuff away, those will simply be sales he won't make next year, and he may
be creating the impression that if you wait long enough everything will be
"free" or "any offer accepted" at the end, thus driving down sales and
prices even further.  So he throws things in the dumpster, taking care to
smash them extra hard on the way in.

That's a prefectly reasonable rationale, and the Vendor X doesn't become
any more "unreasonable" or less "sane" or "logical" becuase he didn't 
hand out a leaflet explaining what he was doing.   

--
Aaron Nabil


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Wed Oct 18 18:16:26 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: Does anyone collect old software?
In-Reply-To: <006f01c0392a$64da1f40$0500fea9@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Oct 18, 2000 11:39:39 AM
Message-ID: <200010182316.QAA21871@shell1.aracnet.com>

> What's "direct access?"  I have a beta copy of Seagate's Direct Access that
> allows sort-of drag-n-drop moves and copies to tape from disk.  Is that what
> it is?  I was part of their beta test progam for several tape utilities.
> They've spun off their tape software now, so I don't know how that bodes for
> it.

Different beast.  It was a menu system for DOS that was popular in the late
80's till Windows got popular.  It totally rocks!  I'd forgotten about it,
and am now going to have to dig up one of my copies to put on the Dauphin
DTR-1 I'm setting up as a DOS box.

Basically you start with a selection of items, and when you select one it
allows you to either run an app or go to another menu (not sure how deep you
can go on menus).  Has at least some sort of password protect on stuff, as I
recall though not terribly secure.

			Zane

From healyzh at aracnet.com  Wed Oct 18 18:27:29 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: Vaxstation 4000/60 help please
In-Reply-To: <20001018192042.FIKK5267.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> from "THETechnoid@home.com" at Oct 18, 2000 03:22:34 PM
Message-ID: <200010182327.QAA22877@shell1.aracnet.com>

> VMS boots and all, but it does not recognize my framebuffer and so won't
> run DecWindows yet.  How do I fix that?

Hate to tell you this, but get a supported framebuffer.  I'm guessing you've
got a PMAG-D/PGX.  Could you please let me know exactly what framebuffer it
is, I'm working on a list of such info.  Based on info I just received today
support for the PMAG-D was dropped in OpenVMS V7.1.

> Of all the drives I've tried, the only one that worked was an old Quantum
> 210mb.  I'd like more flexibility.  Any hints on what I need to do to a
> drive to make it run on this machine?  They generally are 'seen', but VMS
> bombs when I try to install.

I basically only use DEC drives, I've got one VMS system with a non-DEC
drive in it at the moment and it's on my todo list, thanks to corrupted
files.  Don't know if the fact it's a 3rd Party drive is to blame or not,
but I don't like messing with 3rd party drives on my VMS systems.  I think
most hobbyists run with 3rd party drives though.  Based on a recent thread
it sounds like Allison has a lot of experience in this area.

> Even though I've got cdrom drives that are jumperable for 512byte blocks,
> none worked properly but the original RRD40 which is slower than molasis
> in February, the only RRD40 we have got, and it requires some wierd cart I
> don't have.  The only way I can change cd's is to disassemble the drive,
> draw the disk out with hemostats, and slip the replacement in.

As insane as this is going to sound try setting one of those juperable
drives to 2048-byte blocks.  I could swear my VLC doesn't like the 512-byte
setting on my 'floater' CD-ROM, and yes I know the 512-byte blocks are a
requirement!

Good luck getting a cart for the RRD40, they're probably worth more than the 
drive.  

> Basicly, I need a primer on VMS, and someone to corrospond with who knows
> his/her stuff.

Standard answer:
http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/

Though if you're wanting a primer try http://www.amazon.com or
http://www.powells.com (one of Amazons primary suppliers in used books).

			Zane

From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Wed Oct 18 19:55:56 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: motorola Exordisk III with 2 8" floppy drives  FS
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001018195556.3b5f2952@mailhost.intellistar.net>

See "http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=466646805".


From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Wed Oct 18 19:51:21 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: Intel MDS disk drive for auction
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001018195121.3b5f7942@mailhost.intellistar.net>

   See "http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=466646805".
He wants $100 opening bid which I think is about 10x to much but if you're
desperate....  BTW you MUST have the proper controller cards and software
to use these. The MDS's DO NOT come with a controller for the dual drives.
The single integrated drive is contolled via the I/O control card and it
will not operate the external drives.

     Joe


From gregorym at cadvision.com  Wed Oct 18 19:03:21 2000
From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
References: <Pine.OSF.4.21.0010181531430.24201-100000@ridge.spiritone.com>
Message-ID: <03a501c0395f$fe52f5e0$0200a8c0@marvin>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Aaron Nabil" <nabil@SpiritOne.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 5:13 PM
Subject: Re: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)

> That's a prefectly reasonable rationale, and the Vendor X doesn't become
> any more "unreasonable" or less "sane" or "logical" becuase he didn't
> hand out a leaflet explaining what he was doing.
>
< lots snipped >

Aaron, the reasons you give are rational and possibly defensible business
decisions, but they might be irrational and counterproductive in the
"Classiccomp" world. We are still a (relatively) small community of
collectors/preservationists/whatever. The wonderful exchange of information
and stuff that is the list depends on a degree of trust and goodwill.
Anyone repeatedly acting against the prevailing ethos in the community
risks a bad reputation or even "shunning" by the rest of the community.

For example, if I know that someone routinely dumpsters machines or pulls
them apart and sells the bits on eBay, I won't give them my [insert
favourite comp here] that I don't have room for anymore. Look at what
happened to the computer museum that _allegedly_ chopped up rare computers
to make gift shop items; they acquired a hugely bad rep. that still haunts
them from time to time.

Similarly, if I hear that a vendor's prices are way out of line (compared
to documented market values) and they're not willing to negotiate, I won't
waste my time with them. I can always look for other sources or just wait
for them to get a clue.

So business decisions that in theory are rational and defensible can hurt a
company if it's selling to a small community of buyers (as most classic
computer dealers are).

Regards,
Mark.


From vaxman at uswest.net  Wed Oct 18 19:18:23 2000
From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: Vax 11 -7/80 (plus equipment)
In-Reply-To: <20001018134616.A19837@spies.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1001018181731.27033A-100000@oldy.crwolff.com>


No! Don't do it! :)

I'm hoping to win this one... I may have to sell some of my
junk to make room for it, but sacrifices must be made...

clint


On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Andreas Meyer wrote:

> Neil Cherry writes:
> > On EBAY there is an 11 7/80 (currently 6 cents).
> 
> Uh, oh. I see another project coming up...  :)
> http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/~vance/www/vaxbar.html
> 
> Andy
> -- 
> Please trim your quotes. Please trim your quotes. Please trim your quotes. Ple  ase trim your quotes. Please trim your quotes. Please trim your quotes. Please  trim your quotes. Please trim your quotes. Please trim your quotes. Please tri  m your quotes. Please trim your quotes. Please trim your quotes. Please trim y  
> 
> 


From stewart_kevin at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 18 19:37:05 2000
From: stewart_kevin at hotmail.com (Kevin Stewart)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: Enough already! (was: Re: MS Laugh-In)
References: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010180917050.18500-100000@lanshark.lanminds.com>
Message-ID: <OE13ZDgC81TbdkSmLAz00001026@hotmail.com>

Ok, can we stop this? 1) It's irrelevant 2) OS-bashing does NOTHING
positive. 3) It's Microsoft, not M$ or microsh*t 4) It's Windows, not
winblows, windoze, etc.

Windows has its useful places in the world, as do Linux, VMS, *BSD, MacOS
and others. What works for you works for you. I'm currently using an NT 4
box (my main workstation) that sits alongside 20+ Mac, *BSD and Linux boxen
and goes through a Linux firewall to my cablemodem. Linux has crashed on me
< 5 times, mostly when I'm screwing around with code and make a stupid
mistake. NT has crashed < 5 times as well. This box (A celeron 433/96/8gig)
has uptimes of months, just like my Linux boxen. Oh, did I mention that this
is my main dev. machine? It runs VS 6 and rarely crashes whilst running
that. Can we please put an end to this childishness?

Kevin Stewart

From oliv555 at arrl.net  Wed Oct 18 19:31:00 2000
From: oliv555 at arrl.net (no)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: Vaxstation 4000/60 help please
References: <20001018192042.FIKK5267.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>
Message-ID: <39EE40C4.C24AB6DA@arrl.net>



THETechnoid@home.com wrote:
> 
> I've got one of the Vaxstation 4000/60 machines from CPB.
> 
> Of all the drives I've tried, the only one that worked was an old Quantum
> 210mb.  I'd like more flexibility.  Any hints on what I need to do to a
> drive to make it run on this machine?  They generally are 'seen', but VMS
> bombs when I try to install.
> 
>

The only drives I've been able to get my 4000/60 to *see* and format are
the DEC RZ-2x series. My 3100/20e, OTOH, has formatted everything I've
connected to it. Once formatted, the model60 seems to like them.

nick o

From mikem at subether.com  Wed Oct 18 19:31:54 2000
From: mikem at subether.com (Mike Morris)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: Scrap/recycle computer component classifieds
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001018195121.3b5f7942@mailhost.intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001018171924.00ab1750@mail.subether.net>

Maybe this is old news to most of you, but I ran across a site that might 
be of interest:

http://www.recycle.net/computer/index.html

One item in particular caught my eye. I'm not into Vax's so I have no clue 
if it's worth anything as a classic. But it seems like the majority of 
posts to the list deal with them... so here you go:

AVAILABLE : LA130604
Shipping Pt.: US, Indianapolis IN
  Computer Scrap and Dismantling - Scrap Whole
  Computers Digital VAX 6000-430. This is a fully functioning
  VAX6000-430 with 1 DEC array and 2 HSC 70s. You pay the
  shipping & it's yours. Contact via email.

URL for the above listing:  http://www.recycle.net/computer/scrap/xv030500.html

Seems to be *lots* of other stuff there too.  Again, if it's already a well 
known site, please excuse the line noise. :)

- Mike


From oliv555 at arrl.net  Wed Oct 18 20:05:30 2000
From: oliv555 at arrl.net (no)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: BA23 w/RA70
Message-ID: <39EE48DA.73175AD@arrl.net>

Well I've got this empty BA23 and enough boards to put
together a MVIII/kda50. What I don't have is the RA control
panel.

My question is, can the RA70 be set up to run without it? 
If so, what jumper/sw settings?

The box may be an earlier model, badged microPDP11, so
I have to wonder if the VAX, 2 mem bds, kda50, RA70,
RQDX3 (for the RX33) and a DELQA would be too much for
the P/S.

nick o

From whdawson at mlynk.com  Wed Oct 18 20:16:58 2000
From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.21.0010181531430.24201-100000@ridge.spiritone.com>
Message-ID: <000301c0396a$46d73740$f69e72d1@cobweb.net>

-> On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Hans Franke wrote:
-> > > Aaron Nabil <nabil@SpiritOne.com>
-> > > I scrap (well, actually throw away) a HUGE amount of stuff rather
than
-> > > "sell it for less than I think it's worth".  No, I'm not in the
-> > > business, I'm just a hobbiest, but if I can have valid reasons
for
-> > > throwing things away instead of selling them at a lower price (or
giving
-> > > them away), I can certainly imagine that they do too. It's
uncalled for
-> > > ascribing "poor character" to people unless you also happen to be
a mind
-> > > reader, they might have perfectly valid reasons for doing what
they do.
-> >
-> > A perfectly healthy state of mind of one person may be total
-> > insanity to another, and your expression may need some additional
-> > backup to be considered by most people. Throwing away goods
-> > istead of selling is more damaging to the vendor than selling
-> > at a lower price (even when lower than the cost to produce) .
-> > This is valid for most economic situations, eventualy except
-> > communist systems and EU buerocracy.
->
-> Again, ascribing "state of mind" to people just because they don't
-> volunteer their rationale to you is silly.  You aren't the one making
-> the decision, they don't have an obligation to you to "explain
-> themselves" to you.

Especially when the explanation would only reveal that the basis of the
decision is greed and/or selfishness.

-> As a general rule, you can expect people to act in their own best
-> interest.  If someone thinks that reducing the price is in their
interest,
-> that's what they will do.  If they think throwing it in the dumpster
is in
-> their best interest, that's what they will do.
->
-> I'm not sure which of my expressions needs backup, but first and
foremost,
-> it's my stuff, I don't need to "explain" my actions,

While this is very true, those that refuse to explain the rationale of
what to others are inexplicable behaviors usually are just hiding their
true motivations, knowing that the revelation of those motivations to
others will open their beliefs and themselves to scrutiny.

-> you can trust that
-> being a reasonable person I'm going to act in my best interests.  As
for
-> throwing away things being "less damaging" than selling them, I'll
-> include a couple illustrations from "real life" to show how that it
may
-> not be the case.  But what is important is that this isn't intended
as an
-> exautive list, I'm simply pointing out that people can have valid
reasons
-> for what they do even if they don't share them with you.
->
->  Local high-tech company T has a surplus sales store, but instead of
->  selling their own equipment at the store, they scrap it and only get
->  a tiny fraction of the value back.  They do this to avoid
-> competing with their own new products.

Explanation: Greed.

->
->  Hobbiest A has acquired most of the remaining sets of a particular
test
->  set that is in high demand on the surplus market.  He has a large
number
->  of junk units that he could sell on Ebay or to other users for a few
->  hundred dollars, but they would get fixed up and sold in competition
with
->  his really nice units (worth $1000), so he throws them away
instead.0)

Explanation: Greed as motivation again. Selfishness also.

I can imagine that it never enters into the thought process of a greed
driven seller like this that a buyer who just can't afford the "really
nice units (worth $1000)" would gladly buy a "junk" unit, invest the
time and effort to repair/restore it and then use it, having no thoughts
of re-selling it on eBay.

The seller in this instance is so fearful of competition that he will
relinquish maximum profits to control an imagined future competitive
situation.  Is the fear of competition in this instance so strong as to
cause an irrational action?  I think so.  Would this seller likely hide
his true motivation with a statement such as "It's my stuff, I don't
need to "explain" my actions."? Probably.

->
->
-> And I'll make one up...
->
->  Vendor X hauls a bunch of stuff down to VCF n, some of which he
sells.
-> People are interested in what he has, but aren't willing to pay what
he
-> thinks are reasonable prices.  He has a warehouse of the stuff,
realizes
-> that there is going to be a VCF n+1 and that the same people will be
there
-> and the value of his warehouse of stuff will only go up.  If he gives
his
-> stuff away, those will simply be sales he won't make next year, and
he may
-> be creating the impression that if you wait long enough everything
will be
-> "free" or "any offer accepted" at the end, thus driving down sales
and
-> prices even further.  So he throws things in the dumpster, taking
care to
-> smash them extra hard on the way in.
->
-> That's a prefectly reasonable rationale, and the Vendor X doesn't
become
-> any more "unreasonable" or less "sane" or "logical" becuase he didn't
-> hand out a leaflet explaining what he was doing.

This isn't a reasonable rationale at all.  Again, with greed as the
prime motivation here, what appears to others as irrational actions
occurs.  Just because the seller has a reason for his actions doesn't
make it reasonable, rational or sane.  The fact that he refuses to
explain his actions is a clue that he also knows his rationale for his
actions is unacceptable.  His actions are no more justified than the
other seller who claims he heard a voice inside his head telling him to
blow up the VCF because every is plotting against him to ensure that he
doesn't sell anything.

Bill

->
-> --
-> Aaron Nabil
->


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Wed Oct 18 20:24:45 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: Vaxstation 4000/60 help please
Message-ID: <016701c0396b$ce11f0a0$69749a8d@ajp166>

From: THETechnoid@home.com <THETechnoid@home.com>


>I don't know anything about VMS.
>
>VMS boots and all, but it does not recognize my framebuffer and so won't
>run DecWindows yet.  How do I fix that?


Read "HELP DECWINDOWS"

The boot process does not have to recognize the framebuffer, you run
DECWINDOWS as a process.  FYI it's possible it's not installed.

>Of all the drives I've tried, the only one that worked was an old
Quantum
>210mb.  I'd like more flexibility.  Any hints on what I need to do to a
>drive to make it run on this machine?  They generally are 'seen', but
VMS
>bombs when I try to install.


Gotta INIT them first.

>Even though I've got cdrom drives that are jumperable for 512byte
blocks,
>none worked properly but the original RRD40 which is slower than molasis


I have two toshibas 2x scsi that work killer so maybe the CDrom is ????!

>in February, the only RRD40 we have got, and it requires some wierd cart
I
>don't have.  The only way I can change cd's is to disassemble the drive,
>draw the disk out with hemostats, and slip the replacement in.


You need a tray, they can be found.  it's not that unique.

>Basicly, I need a primer on VMS, and someone to corrospond with who
knows
>his/her stuff.


Try the HELP utility, if that cant answer you question then try here.
Really,
it's kinda cryptic just like manpages but once you get into them you find
a lot of info.

That and a grey wall is handy too (VMS DOC set for V5 is grey binders
about 10 linear feet of them some 17 volumes.)

Allison


From lemay at cs.umn.edu  Wed Oct 18 20:39:42 2000
From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: Vax 11 -7/80 (plus equipment)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1001018181731.27033A-100000@oldy.crwolff.com> from
 "Clint Wolff (VAX collector)" at "Oct 18, 2000 06:18:23 pm"
Message-ID: <200010190139.UAA05923@caesar.cs.umn.edu>

Does this mean I should scan in the Vax 11/780 schematics someday?

Several inches of 11x17 pages...

-Lawrence LeMay

> 
> No! Don't do it! :)
> 
> I'm hoping to win this one... I may have to sell some of my
> junk to make room for it, but sacrifices must be made...
> 
> clint
> 
> 
> On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Andreas Meyer wrote:
> 
> > Neil Cherry writes:
> > > On EBAY there is an 11 7/80 (currently 6 cents).
> > 
> > Uh, oh. I see another project coming up...  :)
> > http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/~vance/www/vaxbar.html
> > 
> > Andy
> > -- 
> > Please trim your quotes. Please trim your quotes. Please trim your quotes. Ple  ase trim your quotes. Please trim your quotes. Please trim your quotes. Please  trim your quotes. Please trim your quotes. Please trim your quotes. Please tri  m your quotes. Please trim your quotes. Please trim your quotes. Please trim y  
> > 
> > 
> 


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Wed Oct 18 21:06:54 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: Enough already! (was: Re: MS Laugh-In)
Message-ID: <018d01c03971$74f317f0$69749a8d@ajp166>

From: Kevin Stewart <stewart_kevin@hotmail.com>


>Ok, can we stop this? 1) It's irrelevant 2) OS-bashing does NOTHING
>positive. 3) It's Microsoft, not M$ or microsh*t 4) It's Windows, not
>winblows, windoze, etc.


Actually it's MICROS~1   ;)

>Windows has its useful places in the world, as do Linux, VMS, *BSD,
MacOS


No it's taken the world some place it shouldn't go.  While the idea and
over all
plan is good it's execution is there the comments arise.

I manage 40 clients running w95osr2.1, minimum of one crash a week.
Uptime
is measured by TBI, that's time between Installs due to it's propensity
for eating
itself.  For w95osr2 that's about 10 months.  W98se has the record for
not even
running on a engineering machine that ran Autocad for years without
grief.  A
raft (nearly 50mb) of patches later from MS and a list of vendors later
it's nearly
stable.

>and others. What works for you works for you. I'm currently using an NT
4
>box (my main workstation) that sits alongside 20+ Mac, *BSD and Linux
boxen


I do too, much better once they got to SP4!!!  However add IIS or worse
office97
and it's not nearly as solid.  Dont forget SP1 and SP2 for Office97.  I
use it
but while IE/OE are installed I try not to use them as they have
demonstated
weakness and are a huge security hole.  Without MS apps it's acceptable.

>and goes through a Linux firewall to my cablemodem. Linux has crashed on
me
>< 5 times, mostly when I'm screwing around with code and make a stupid
>mistake. NT has crashed < 5 times as well. This box (A celeron
433/96/8gig)


No news there.  The difference is in linux you can see where and why, w9x
its all too difficult to diagnose.  Then again any system where you can
write/modify the kernal code is susceptable to crashes.  Linux doesn't
suffer
from putting the Video driver in the most unprotected place where errant
apps can munge it and kill you (winNT4).

The upside is a ODBC for NT that really works is only $4000 after
spending
a bomb for all the other stuff to make a "real server" using it.  Or
running
an app and needing support and having the vendor expire before the
warrentee.
Linux and FreeBSD have a few warts but open code is at least fixable.

Ever deal with NT domains?  Their fun.  Try and get a server to
participate
in a domain.  Ever try to create a PDC when one pukes and there is no
BDC ( a legacy issue) but now you have to have one?  It's simple,
reinstall EVERYthing as you can only get that choice at install time.
Dont forget to install IIS, do it later and it much not participate in
the
SAM, split domain secuity that results is loads of fun when you
needed a server yesterday.  IIS can be fun, server can do file services
but wants a password for a simple web page because it split the
domain internally somehow and the web pages done have "permissions".

Ever try and track the service packs and hotfixes for NT4?  I have the
complete
set of some 13 CDroms for 3.51, all patches and fixes.  I gave up trying
for NT4, If I have to bridge the Intranet to the Internet you can bet a
proxy
server/firwall and content filter will be there.

Then there is the little problem of  IntenetExplorer, the virus back door
that does.  Any server apps you write have to be written for it as those
aimed at all other browsers are different.  Add to that OutlookExpress
another virus barn door that can't figure out how to produce nicely
wrapped text at 80 characters or any other line length that may be
reasonable.

Why use it... have you ever tried to move from servers running NT3.51
to linux with a W95 client base?  A real test of sanity and recreating a
small raft of code.  Worse yet is doing it the NTway and finding all the
3.51 code is useless under NT4.  then you have the problem of W95
network logins if there is no "domain".  No secuity on the 'net either.

Now do you understand the frustration?  Tis better it's vented as humor
as the alternate is serious fault finding.

Allison




From eric at brouhaha.com  Wed Oct 18 21:37:49 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: VAX Ethernet (was Re: IDE on Qbus (was Re: Microvax II))
In-Reply-To: <019601c038b3$f66aa6e0$d1759a8d@ajp166>
References: <019601c038b3$f66aa6e0$d1759a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <20001019023749.9566.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Allison wrote:
> Use it.  The DELQA and DEQNA have nearly identical modes with the delqa
> adding a higher performance one(plus reliability).  For VMS prior to
> 7.x it does work and for 7.2 mine seems ok.

Does the DELUA have the higher performance mode?  I have the DEUNA and
DELUA manuals, and see very little difference in the interface.

From cem14 at cornell.edu  Wed Oct 18 21:45:17 2000
From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: Vaxstation 4000/60 help please
In-Reply-To: <39EE40C4.C24AB6DA@arrl.net>
References: <20001018192042.FIKK5267.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20001018224517.0109f074@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu>

At 07:31 PM 10/18/00 -0500, nick o wrote:
>The only drives I've been able to get my 4000/60 to *see* and format are
>the DEC RZ-2x series. My 3100/20e, OTOH, has formatted everything I've
>connected to it. Once formatted, the model60 seems to like them.

I once transferred an ST31200N drive from a Decstation 5000/33 
to my 4000/60 and I installed OpenVMS 7.2 on it.  No problems found.  Should
I expect surprises if I try to add other drives that haven't
been used under some DEC OS?

Carlos.


From eric at brouhaha.com  Wed Oct 18 21:54:24 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: Vax 11 -7/80 (plus equipment)
In-Reply-To: <F59X9kOS6yDC0AHmKqy00007476@hotmail.com>
	(xds_sigma7@hotmail.com)
References: <F59X9kOS6yDC0AHmKqy00007476@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20001019025424.9718.qmail@brouhaha.com>

> Heh, yes, it definetly is in my price range, but what would I do with 2 
> 11/780's? I only really need to have one...

If you only have one, you can't do the Uber-cool Goble & Marsh
dual-processor modification:

http://ghg.ecn.purdue.edu/vax/paper.html

From eric at brouhaha.com  Wed Oct 18 21:54:24 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: Vax 11 -7/80 (plus equipment)
In-Reply-To: <F59X9kOS6yDC0AHmKqy00007476@hotmail.com>
	(xds_sigma7@hotmail.com)
References: <F59X9kOS6yDC0AHmKqy00007476@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20001019025424.9718.qmail@brouhaha.com>

> Heh, yes, it definetly is in my price range, but what would I do with 2 
> 11/780's? I only really need to have one...

If you only have one, you can't do the Uber-cool Goble & Marsh
dual-processor modification:

http://ghg.ecn.purdue.edu/vax/paper.html

From eric at brouhaha.com  Wed Oct 18 21:58:22 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: SCSI-based floppy drives (3.5 or 5.25)
In-Reply-To: <10010182218.ZM861@indy.dunnington.u-net.com>
	(pete@dunnington.u-net.com)
References: <39EDB7F6.8040607@olf.com> <10010182218.ZM861@indy.dunnington.u-net.com>
Message-ID: <20001019025822.9777.qmail@brouhaha.com>

pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) wrote:
> BTW, SCSI-2 should work fine on a SCSI-1 system.  You just won't get some
> of the extra twiddly SCSI-2 features.

Usually, but not always.  Some SCSI-2 devices and host adapters require
bus parity, and some SCSI-1 devices and host adapters don't support
parity at all.

From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Wed Oct 18 22:03:38 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: VAX Ethernet (was Re: IDE on Qbus (was Re: Microvax II))
Message-ID: <01cf01c03979$32f42120$69749a8d@ajp166>

>Does the DELUA have the higher performance mode?  I have the DEUNA and
>DELUA manuals, and see very little difference in the interface.


Those are unibus (non Qbus) and outside my expereince beyond knowing
one of the two is better than the other but I forgot which.  Apparently
they
are very different inside despite the common interface.

Allison


From Innfogra at aol.com  Wed Oct 18 22:32:02 2000
From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: motorola Exordisk III with 2 8" floppy drives  FS
Message-ID: <44.824bb3f.271fc532@aol.com>

In a message dated 10/18/00 4:56:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
rigdonj@intellistar.net writes:

> motorola Exordisk III
 <A HREF="http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=467562310">
eBay item 467562310 (Ends Oct-23-00 11:51:30 PDT) - motorola Exordisk III with
</A>

This is the correct link for the Exordisk. 
Paxton  

From rws at enteract.com  Wed Oct 18 22:50:52 2000
From: rws at enteract.com (Richard W. Schauer)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: Vax 11 -7/80 (plus equipment)
In-Reply-To: <20001019025424.9718.qmail@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0010182245120.49387-100000@shell-1.enteract.com>

Speaking of 11/780's, how would the peanut gallery recommend moving one
that's located down a flight of stairs?  When it was brought in 15 years
ago they hired a moving company, who got it down in an hour using some
equipment for $200.  I called several moving companies who insist the only
way to bring it up is with 6-8 men who basically carry it up, at a cost of
$800-1000.  I am considering diving deeply into Vaxology by taking it
apart, carrying it upstairs, and putting it back together.

Richard Schauer
rws@enteract.com




From ernestls at home.com  Wed Oct 18 22:55:10 2000
From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: Enough already! (was: Re: MS Laugh-In)
In-Reply-To: <018d01c03971$74f317f0$69749a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <MPBBIHIJJHCCOBHIHBAJMEELMLAB.ernestls@home.com>

I have mixed feelings about MS Windows/NT but first of all, I should say
that I've earned a quite a nice chunk of change supporting MS products both
because they used brute force to make their product the office standard
(plenty of IS jobs,) and because their products are so faulty to begin with.
Should I be thanking them, or cursing them? It's an enigma to me.

With that in mind, I've wondered for some time if Windows (like Linux)
crashes so often because of a lack of user understanding, and poorly
designed third party software, or because Windows simply a badly coded piece
of OS.

I know that my personal computer, at home, running Win95, and now Win2000
never crashes, even when I do something stupid that I expect will cause
problems. I don't believe that this is because of good luck, or because
Windows is great. I believe that it's because, through my years of
supporting it, and working with it, I've intuitively learned it's
limitations. At my office, the machines that I purchase and setup myself are
stable. This is because I research what software plays well with Windows and
avoid that which doesn't, and because I choose hardware that I've learned to
trust -like Asus, and 3com. I'm immediately suspicious when someone calls me
to report a crash. Why is the machine that I built for you crashing, when
all of the others aren't? Usually, the reasons become apparent, and in most
cases, reasonable to me. The user is a beginner or a moron. They loaded some
stupid screensaver or badly designed piece of freeware. Or the computer
itself is just to old to run the newer software that's been loaded. In my
experience, these are the most common reasons for crashes. Occasionally,
there's a broken video card or bad memory chips, or a power fluctuation but
maybe 1 in 15 times is it what I believe to be a problem with Windows or
it's design. When someone's computer crashes, they love to blame Windows but
how often is the problem really with Windows? Possibly always but there are
a lot of variables to consider when you place the blame.

My Linux box crashes more often than my Windows box, and I'm the first to
admit that it's because I don't know what the hell I'm doing, when I use it.
Does that mean that Linux is designed badly? If Linux is so great, why is
there an almost daily alert in my inbox from bugzilla, reporting some
security risk or other newly found flaw? As a frustrated new Linux user,
that doesn't build my trust in it but I still like using it. I wonder if
Linux proponents, like the early Apple users, have simply decided that their
OS is better than Windows, whether it's a truly better OS or not, simply
because they don't like Microsoft. I don't like Microsoft but that doesn't
mean that Linux is great. Linux is what it is, and that has nothing to do
with Microsoft.

I've been living high on the hog (weird phrase, eh?) by suckling up to the
virtual teat that Microsoft's software problems have created, and it's a
mighty BIG teat for sure but doesn't it seem reasonable to assume that any
other mass produced OS would have just as bad a reputation if it were as
common as MS Windows? Can you imagine how pleasantly Linux would be embraced
if it became the new standard in homes across America? Can you hear the
howls of agony in the distance? I want to like Linux, and I do like it but
it's got it's flaws, just like Windows. Right now, I would recommend Windows
2000 Pro to someone looking for a new OS but that doesn't mean that it's
great. I would recommend it because it's adequate for the average user, and
in the hands of someone who knows how to use it (like me) it becomes
(aaaaalmost) a thing of beauty. I hope that Linux develops into the
incredible OS that it can be (please, GOD, let it be so) but until then,
I'll be patient with MS Windows to.

Ernest

PS I haven't had a chance to read all of the postings in this thread yet, so
hopefully, I didn't     repeat what anyone else wrote.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org
[mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of ajp166
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 7:07 PM
To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Enough already! (was: Re: MS Laugh-In)


From: Kevin Stewart <stewart_kevin@hotmail.com>


>Ok, can we stop this? 1) It's irrelevant 2) OS-bashing does NOTHING
>positive. 3) It's Microsoft, not M$ or microsh*t 4) It's Windows, not
>winblows, windoze, etc.


Actually it's MICROS~1   ;)

>Windows has its useful places in the world, as do Linux, VMS, *BSD,
MacOS


No it's taken the world some place it shouldn't go.  While the idea and
over all
plan is good it's execution is there the comments arise.

I manage 40 clients running w95osr2.1, minimum of one crash a week.
Uptime
is measured by TBI, that's time between Installs due to it's propensity
for eating
itself.  For w95osr2 that's about 10 months.  W98se has the record for
not even
running on a engineering machine that ran Autocad for years without
grief.  A
raft (nearly 50mb) of patches later from MS and a list of vendors later
it's nearly
stable.

>and others. What works for you works for you. I'm currently using an NT
4
>box (my main workstation) that sits alongside 20+ Mac, *BSD and Linux
boxen


I do too, much better once they got to SP4!!!  However add IIS or worse
office97
and it's not nearly as solid.  Dont forget SP1 and SP2 for Office97.  I
use it
but while IE/OE are installed I try not to use them as they have
demonstated
weakness and are a huge security hole.  Without MS apps it's acceptable.

>and goes through a Linux firewall to my cablemodem. Linux has crashed on
me
>< 5 times, mostly when I'm screwing around with code and make a stupid
>mistake. NT has crashed < 5 times as well. This box (A celeron
433/96/8gig)


No news there.  The difference is in linux you can see where and why, w9x
its all too difficult to diagnose.  Then again any system where you can
write/modify the kernal code is susceptable to crashes.  Linux doesn't
suffer
from putting the Video driver in the most unprotected place where errant
apps can munge it and kill you (winNT4).

The upside is a ODBC for NT that really works is only $4000 after
spending
a bomb for all the other stuff to make a "real server" using it.  Or
running
an app and needing support and having the vendor expire before the
warrentee.
Linux and FreeBSD have a few warts but open code is at least fixable.

Ever deal with NT domains?  Their fun.  Try and get a server to
participate
in a domain.  Ever try to create a PDC when one pukes and there is no
BDC ( a legacy issue) but now you have to have one?  It's simple,
reinstall EVERYthing as you can only get that choice at install time.
Dont forget to install IIS, do it later and it much not participate in
the
SAM, split domain secuity that results is loads of fun when you
needed a server yesterday.  IIS can be fun, server can do file services
but wants a password for a simple web page because it split the
domain internally somehow and the web pages done have "permissions".

Ever try and track the service packs and hotfixes for NT4?  I have the
complete
set of some 13 CDroms for 3.51, all patches and fixes.  I gave up trying
for NT4, If I have to bridge the Intranet to the Internet you can bet a
proxy
server/firwall and content filter will be there.

Then there is the little problem of  IntenetExplorer, the virus back door
that does.  Any server apps you write have to be written for it as those
aimed at all other browsers are different.  Add to that OutlookExpress
another virus barn door that can't figure out how to produce nicely
wrapped text at 80 characters or any other line length that may be
reasonable.

Why use it... have you ever tried to move from servers running NT3.51
to linux with a W95 client base?  A real test of sanity and recreating a
small raft of code.  Worse yet is doing it the NTway and finding all the
3.51 code is useless under NT4.  then you have the problem of W95
network logins if there is no "domain".  No secuity on the 'net either.

Now do you understand the frustration?  Tis better it's vented as humor
as the alternate is serious fault finding.

Allison




From ernestls at home.com  Wed Oct 18 23:05:23 2000
From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: Some HP 150 questions
In-Reply-To: <01db01c03560$28a1d180$0200a8c0@marvin>
Message-ID: <MPBBIHIJJHCCOBHIHBAJGEEMMLAB.ernestls@home.com>

I have a dazzling assortment of HP 150 software programs, and even some
extra 150 and Touchscreen manuals that I could part with. Get in touch with
me at ernest@msrcorp.com, and we can figure out a way to get you what you
need.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org
[mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Mark Gregory
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2000 2:54 PM
To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org
Subject: Some HP 150 questions


Can anyone point me to a source for the non-PC compatible version of MS-DOS
used on the HP Series 100 machines? I recently found a complete HP 150
system (the touchscreen monitor/processor unit, a dual 3.5" floppy unit,
HPIB interface Thinkjet, and keyboard), but couldn't unearth any software
or docs.

I'm interested in the OS, as well as apps that will run on a 150. I'll pay
cash, or am open to trades if I have surplus items of interest. Please
reply off-list to gregorym@cadvision.com

Also, is the 150's keyboard cable just a 6 pin straight through cable with
the large phone type connectors (whose name escapes me at the moment)?

Thanks in advance.

Mark Gregory


From nabil at SpiritOne.com  Wed Oct 18 23:29:17 2000
From: nabil at SpiritOne.com (Aaron Nabil)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:03 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
In-Reply-To: <000301c0396a$46d73740$f69e72d1@cobweb.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.21.0010182119500.18164-100000@ridge.spiritone.com>

On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Bill Dawson wrote:
> -> > > Aaron Nabil <nabil@SpiritOne.com>
> . . . 
> ->
> ->
> -> And I'll make one up...
> ->
> ->  Vendor X hauls a bunch of stuff down to VCF n, some of which he
> sells.
> -> People are interested in what he has, but aren't willing to pay what
> he
> -> thinks are reasonable prices.  He has a warehouse of the stuff,
> realizes
> -> that there is going to be a VCF n+1 and that the same people will be
> there
> -> and the value of his warehouse of stuff will only go up.  If he gives
> his
> -> stuff away, those will simply be sales he won't make next year, and
> he may
> -> be creating the impression that if you wait long enough everything
> will be
> -> "free" or "any offer accepted" at the end, thus driving down sales
> and
> -> prices even further.  So he throws things in the dumpster, taking
> care to
> -> smash them extra hard on the way in.
> ->
> -> That's a prefectly reasonable rationale, and the Vendor X doesn't
> become
> -> any more "unreasonable" or less "sane" or "logical" becuase he didn't
> -> hand out a leaflet explaining what he was doing.
> 
> This isn't a reasonable rationale at all.  Again, with greed as the
> prime motivation here, what appears to others as irrational actions
> occurs.  Just because the seller has a reason for his actions doesn't
> make it reasonable, rational or sane.  The fact that he refuses to
> explain his actions is a clue that he also knows his rationale for his
> actions is unacceptable.  His actions are no more justified than the
> other seller who claims he heard a voice inside his head telling him to
> blow up the VCF because every is plotting against him to ensure that he
> doesn't sell anything.
> 

Some people make a living by buying and selling surplus.  They are not
"classic computer collectors" and do not "owe anything to the
community".  Theirs is hard and risky work with no guarantees, it
isn't "easy money".  To dismiss their desire to maximize their profit (so
that they can do things like eat and pay the rent) as "being greedy" is 
patently absurd and does not merit further comment.

--
Aaron Nabil


From foo at siconic.com  Wed Oct 18 22:26:46 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.21.0010181531430.24201-100000@ridge.spiritone.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010181950370.14933-100000@siconic.com>

On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Aaron Nabil wrote:

> Again, ascribing "state of mind" to people just because they don't
> volunteer their rationale to you is silly.  You aren't the one making
> the decision, they don't have an obligation to you to "explain
> themselves" to you.
> 
> As a general rule, you can expect people to act in their own best
> interest.  If someone thinks that reducing the price is in their interest,
> that's what they will do.  If they think throwing it in the dumpster is in
> their best interest, that's what they will do.
> 
> I'm not sure which of my expressions needs backup, but first and foremost,
> it's my stuff, I don't need to "explain" my actions, you can trust that
> being a reasonable person I'm going to act in my best interests.  As for
> throwing away things being "less damaging" than selling them, I'll
> include a couple illustrations from "real life" to show how that it may
> not be the case.  But what is important is that this isn't intended as an
> exautive list, I'm simply pointing out that people can have valid reasons
> for what they do even if they don't share them with you.
> 
>  Local high-tech company T has a surplus sales store, but instead of
>  selling their own equipment at the store, they scrap it and only get
>  a tiny fraction of the value back.  They do this to avoid competing with
>  their own new products.
> 
>  Hobbiest A has acquired most of the remaining sets of a particular test
>  set that is in high demand on the surplus market.  He has a large number
>  of junk units that he could sell on Ebay or to other users for a few
>  hundred dollars, but they would get fixed up and sold in competition with
>  his really nice units (worth $1000), so he throws them away instead.  

Aaron, sorry to say it but every point you're making here points towards
selfishness.  There seems to be no concern here with a greater ideal
outside of monetary gain.  Hey, utlimately it's your perogative, but there
are other things to consider besides how much money you can line your
pockets with.  This is, after all, primarily a hobby of preservation.  
Throwing stuff out because you can't get what you want for it is the
antithesis of what this is supposed to be about.

As for your other example (which I snipped), isn't it utlimately better to
get SOMETHING for your stuff than just throwing it out?  Pricing your gear
is a fine art.  If it doesn't sell at one venue, you should either decide
if it's more worth your time and money to warehouse it until the next
event, or to try to cut your losses and get what you can for it.  If it
consistently doesn't sell, then you probably have something that's not
worth any price, which does not equate to worthless.  It might still be
useful to someone, but it isn't worth exchanging money for.  There are a
great many examples, but you can use your own imagination.  Taking it at
this point and smashing it to bits just so nobody will be able to take it
home shows contempt for buyers, ergo, poor character (again, in my
opinion).

I take my examples from my parents, who are very savvy when it comes to
both buying and selling, and also very pragmatic.  My Mom has frequent
garage sales to get rid of excess crap my Dad has packratted.  She's a
tough negotiator, and will be very insistent about a price on something,
but she's not stupid.  She'll sooner take a little less money for it than
close up for the day and still have a yard full of crap.  To simply throw
it away would be foolish.  It serves her no purpose to throw anything
away, even if all she gets is a dollar for it.  That's a dollar she didn't
have before.

You can see how my philosophy on these matters was developed from
obersiving my parents.  It's also a fairly typical Arab perspective :)

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From foo at siconic.com  Wed Oct 18 22:32:38 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
In-Reply-To: <03a501c0395f$fe52f5e0$0200a8c0@marvin>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010182028140.14933-100000@siconic.com>

On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Mark Gregory wrote:

> Similarly, if I hear that a vendor's prices are way out of line (compared
> to documented market values) and they're not willing to negotiate, I won't
> waste my time with them. I can always look for other sources or just wait
> for them to get a clue.

And this is a self-defeating situation.  They need to keep their prices
high so that the occasional sale they do make allows them to stay in
operation.  It's basic, simple, economics.  High volume vs. high margin.
Both have their pros and cons, but you also have to think about the market
you're in.  This is a hobbyist market.  We don't have big bucks to go
throwing around.  Go for high volume and you'll come out ahead every time.

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From wmsmith at earthlink.net  Wed Oct 18 23:57:31 2000
From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: [Still] Need I.D. on IMSAI parts
References: <Pine.OSF.4.21.0010172302290.8125-100000@ridge.spiritone.com> <015f01c038d1$4c209d20$339eb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <006701c03989$17964240$249eb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net>

Does no one know what these parts are for?  My
suspicion is that it's for an IMSAI 8080 given the no.
of LEDs.

> I just obtained, in various pieces, a VDP-40 and a
> VDP-44 from which I am hoping to assemble one working
> unit (perhaps to display at next year's VCF).  Among
> the stuff was a bag of parts (resistors, capacitors,
> ICs, LEDs, etc.) with a parts list.  I've scanned the
> list and posted it at:
>
> home.earthlink.net/~wmsmith/Imsai/Bag_of_parts.jpg
>
> Can anyone i.d. this for me?
>
>


From foo at siconic.com  Wed Oct 18 22:53:44 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: Enough already! (was: Re: MS Laugh-In)
In-Reply-To: <MPBBIHIJJHCCOBHIHBAJMEELMLAB.ernestls@home.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010182039030.14933-100000@siconic.com>

On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Ernest wrote:

> With that in mind, I've wondered for some time if Windows (like Linux)
> crashes so often because of a lack of user understanding, and poorly

This is the second reference I've seen this week to complaining about
Linux crashing.  I find this to be ludicrous.

Look, if Linux crashes, it's because YOU did something wrong or
something's wrong with your hardware.  Windows just crashes for seemingly
no good reason.  Linux doesn't.

So people, please.  Don't blame your own shortcomings on Linux.

> all of the others aren't? Usually, the reasons become apparent, and in most
> cases, reasonable to me. The user is a beginner or a moron. They loaded some
> stupid screensaver or badly designed piece of freeware. Or the computer

An OS that let's an application cause it to crash is a joke.

> it's design. When someone's computer crashes, they love to blame Windows but
> how often is the problem really with Windows? Possibly always but there are
> a lot of variables to consider when you place the blame.

I have a brand new Dell machine.  I primarily run IE, a solid telnet
client (CRT), a good mail reader (Pegasus), Word, Works, Napster, and
whatnot.  Nothing too exotic or risky.  Windows crashes.  I have to reboot
about 2 times a month.

Fix my computer, Ernest :)

> My Linux box crashes more often than my Windows box, and I'm the first to
> admit that it's because I don't know what the hell I'm doing, when I use it.

Thank you.

> Does that mean that Linux is designed badly? If Linux is so great, why is
> there an almost daily alert in my inbox from bugzilla, reporting some
> security risk or other newly found flaw? As a frustrated new Linux user,

You're obviously going about this the wrong way.  Why not pick something
stable like RH 6.2 and just stick with it?  That's what I did, and my
server's been up constantly for months now.  Stop trying to be on the
bleeding edge.

> that doesn't build my trust in it but I still like using it. I wonder if
> Linux proponents, like the early Apple users, have simply decided that their
> OS is better than Windows, whether it's a truly better OS or not, simply
> because they don't like Microsoft. I don't like Microsoft but that doesn't
> mean that Linux is great. Linux is what it is, and that has nothing to do
> with Microsoft.

This argument is sickening.  Calling Windows an OS in the same sentence as
mentioning Linux is wrong in the most dire sense of the word.

> I've been living high on the hog (weird phrase, eh?) by suckling up to the
> virtual teat that Microsoft's software problems have created, and it's a
> mighty BIG teat for sure but doesn't it seem reasonable to assume that any
> other mass produced OS would have just as bad a reputation if it were as
> common as MS Windows? Can you imagine how pleasantly Linux would be embraced

No, it's not reasonable.  You just have this attitude because, as you
plainly have acknowledge, you make a living off of the misery that people
must suffer due to the shit products that one software company has forced
onto the world with their f-ed up marketing practices.

> if it became the new standard in homes across America? Can you hear the
> howls of agony in the distance? I want to like Linux, and I do like it but
> it's got it's flaws, just like Windows. Right now, I would recommend Windows

Again, you're doing something wrong.  I think I see the problem.  You're
approaching Linux as you would with Windows.  Windows needs every patch
that comes out for it because it is fundamentally flawed. Linux does not.  
You just don't get it.

Sorry to carry on this lame thread, but it is sometimes necessary to
dispell ignorant obfuscation of the facts.

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From foo at siconic.com  Wed Oct 18 22:56:40 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.21.0010182119500.18164-100000@ridge.spiritone.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010182054080.14933-100000@siconic.com>

On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Aaron Nabil wrote:

> Some people make a living by buying and selling surplus.  They are not
> "classic computer collectors" and do not "owe anything to the
> community".  Theirs is hard and risky work with no guarantees, it
> isn't "easy money".  To dismiss their desire to maximize their profit (so
> that they can do things like eat and pay the rent) as "being greedy" is 
> patently absurd and does not merit further comment.

As I mentioned in a previous message, you must choose your market.  This
is not the right hobby to be trying to make a living with.  Trust me, I
know.

Of course, having an Apple-1 to sell is a different story, but it still
isn't something to retire on ;)

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Thu Oct 19 00:12:49 2000
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: BA23 w/RA70
In-Reply-To: <39EE48DA.73175AD@arrl.net>
Message-ID: <PGEOIPOKPPLEFPGCLAFAAEIHCDAA.geneb@deltasoft.com>

> The box may be an earlier model, badged microPDP11, so
> I have to wonder if the VAX, 2 mem bds, kda50, RA70,
> RQDX3 (for the RX33) and a DELQA would be too much for

Be very careful with that chassis!  If it was really a MicroPDP, it will
have an 18 bit qbus backplane in it.  It will _destroy_ 22 bit qbus boards
since there are power pins on the 18 bit bus that mate to data pins on the
22 bit bus.

Then again, my memory may be completely broken and I've got it all wrong. :)

g.


From rdd at smart.net  Thu Oct 19 00:25:52 2000
From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: Vax 11 -7/80 (plus equipment)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0010182245120.49387-100000@shell-1.enteract.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010190057170.6581-100000@smarty.smart.net>

On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Richard W. Schauer wrote:
> Speaking of 11/780's, how would the peanut gallery recommend moving one
> that's located down a flight of stairs?  When it was brought in 15 years
> ago they hired a moving company, who got it down in an hour using some
> equipment for $200.  I called several moving companies who insist the only
> way to bring it up is with 6-8 men who basically carry it up, at a cost of
> $800-1000.  I am considering diving deeply into Vaxology by taking it
> apart, carrying it upstairs, and putting it back together.

That sounds slightly familiar; it's how I got started in PDP-11ology
several years ago.  A local university had a PDP-11/44 in one
cabinet, two RL02s in another cabinet and 11/03s and 8" floppy drives
in other cabinets. I called movers, but some didn't want to move the
equipment, and others wanted to charge prices that I didn't want to
pay, so, equipped with very helpful advice from Tony Duell, and lots
of tools and a cart to haul stuff to the car with, I took the cabinets
apart (and the equipment itself apart for testing and fan
disassembly-lubrication-reassembly when I got it home).  

Of course, you're going to have way more fun than I had, as you have
much more to take apart, move around and reassemble. :-) 

Something that I always to when disassembling and reassembling a
system: take along some masking tape, or strips of paper and Scotch
Tape, and a pen, and mark all of the ends of the cables, make lots of
notes & sketches in a spiral notebook, etc.  It will make reassembly a
breeze.  Also, take along some double-bagged paper grocery-store bags
to put spare, smaller, bits, including the following in: some zip-lock
plastic bags for screws, nuts, clips and other small parts.

Have fun, and good luck!  

--
Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of
All Rights Reserved            Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to
rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd   a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD 





From jate at uwasa.fi  Thu Oct 19 00:42:50 2000
From: jate at uwasa.fi (Jarkko Hermanni Teppo)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: VAX Ethernet (was Re: IDE on Qbus (was Re: Microvax II))
In-Reply-To: <20001018134250.36592.qmail@web9501.mail.yahoo.com>; from ethan_dicks@yahoo.com on Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 06:42:50AM -0700
References: <20001018134250.36592.qmail@web9501.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20001019084250.A6210@loisto.uwasa.fi>

On Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 06:42:50AM -0700, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> 
> --- Jarkko Hermanni Teppo <jate@uwasa.fi> wrote:
> > insert cables
> 
> Ah!  Here's the crux of my question... *which* connector of the appropriate
> slot gets the cable?  It's easy for a KDB50 - it's all of them.

I *think* I have the docs, I'll try to scan them and either post a few
scans (pointers to scans, that is:) or explain it otherwise. I really don't
remember how they connect.

>  
> > Seriously, that's the way it probably should be done. The machine I have is
> > suffering from some weird stuff, it seems KDB is faulty. If anyone wants to
> > take a look I have some EBUCA logs at
> > 
> > http://www.tec.puv.fi/~s99137/kuvat/vax_logs/
> 
> I had a glance at them.  Your KDB50 isn't showing up at all.  How do the
> lights on the edge of the card go during power on/reset?  You should, IIRC,
> see one amber light per card after a somewhat lengthy delay (perhaps it's 
> only on the primary card)  Also, the red edge LEDs should strobe when all is
> well.  I know my KDB50 has always been flaky, even when we bought the 8200,
> used in 1989, for $13,000.  What always seems to work is reseating the cards
> in the VAXBI blackplane.  When it's acting up, it's obvious - the lights don't
> look right.

I'm really beginning to hate VAXBI. Yes, the cards are easy to install, easy
to configure but the physical interface is suboptimal. Just touching them
seems to throw them of the whack! 

Oh well, I'll try to find the docs anyway, I also have some other VAXBI docs
as well.

-- 
Jarkko Teppo
jate@uwasa.fi










From ncherry at home.net  Thu Oct 19 00:48:06 2000
From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: Enough already! (was: Re: MS Laugh-In)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010182039030.14933-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <39EE8B16.2A61E0B5@home.net>

Sellam Ismail wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Ernest wrote:
> 
> > With that in mind, I've wondered for some time if Windows (like Linux)
> > crashes so often because of a lack of user understanding, and poorly
> 
> This is the second reference I've seen this week to complaining about
> Linux crashing.  I find this to be ludicrous.
> 
> Look, if Linux crashes, it's because YOU did something wrong or
> something's wrong with your hardware.  Windows just crashes for seemingly
> no good reason.  Linux doesn't.

Here I must heatedly disagree with you! Remember that I am a Linux fanatic
but such a statement is blatantly incorrect. I can, by using Netscape,
crash any Linux! Just hold down the Page Up or Page down on certain HTML
documents and the system will lock up hard. Only a reset will clear it.

This isn't the fault of Linux but it is the fault of Netscape. Netscape
leaks memory like sieve (sp?). BTW: holding down a key until something
crashes is what programmers who worked with me called the "brick test".
I used to take a book or a brick and place it on the keyboard. If after
5 minutes the application didn't blow up they passed phase 1 of testing.

The Windows part is very true! I have a machine which has 32M of RAM
and a 2G disk with W95 and I save my work often as everything teaters
on the border of failure.

Tech support's response to the problem, when am I going to upgrade the
hardware? Hmmm, I can still run Linux on my 386SX (with the blown
keyboard controller). Why should I have to upgrade to get stablity?

> So people, please.  Don't blame your own shortcomings on Linux.

Agreed! But I will blame Microsoft for many of their crashing problems.
An OS should try real hard at not crashing if an App goes awry. Linux
is not immune but I sometimes think that Microsoft doesn't even try
anymore. And yes I know it's difficult to test everything but that's
the price you pay for being #1 (I didn't say best).

BTW: Linux will stress your hardware severely. If your hardware isn't up
snuff Linux will cause it to fail. But (in the same breath) Linux can
easily run on systems where older versions of Windows will fail to run.
I can build a base Linux that will fit on a 50M disk (with swap). Heck
I can run my 3B2 on that (sorry no Linux for the 3B2).

Sellam, this wasn't direct at you. It came from years (~15) supporting
Microsoft products and other OS's. I've lived through Lan Mangler 3.5
with OSI (I hate Domains!) though the various erosion of various protocols
bent towards Microsoft's use (and away from every one else's if they
don't use Microsoft).

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

From whdawson at mlynk.com  Thu Oct 19 00:46:53 2000
From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.21.0010182119500.18164-100000@ridge.spiritone.com>
Message-ID: <000201c0398f$fbd94280$9f9e72d1@cobweb.net>

-> On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Bill Dawson wrote:
-> > -> > > Aaron Nabil <nabil@SpiritOne.com>
-> > . . .
-> > ->
-> > ->
-> > -> And I'll make one up...
-> > ->
-> > ->  Vendor X hauls a bunch of stuff down to VCF n, some of which he
sells.
-> > -> People are interested in what he has, but aren't willing to pay
what he
-> > -> thinks are reasonable prices.  He has a warehouse of the stuff,
realizes
-> > -> that there is going to be a VCF n+1 and that the same people
will be there
-> > -> and the value of his warehouse of stuff will only go up.  If he
gives his
-> > -> stuff away, those will simply be sales he won't make next year,
and he may
-> > -> be creating the impression that if you wait long enough
everything will be
-> > -> "free" or "any offer accepted" at the end, thus driving down
sales and
-> > -> prices even further.  So he throws things in the dumpster,
taking care to
-> > -> smash them extra hard on the way in.
-> > ->
-> > -> That's a prefectly reasonable rationale, and the Vendor X
doesn't become
-> > -> any more "unreasonable" or less "sane" or "logical" becuase he
didn't
-> > -> hand out a leaflet explaining what he was doing.
-> >
-> > This isn't a reasonable rationale at all.  Again, with greed as the
-> > prime motivation here, what appears to others as irrational actions
-> > occurs.  Just because the seller has a reason for his actions
doesn't
-> > make it reasonable, rational or sane.  The fact that he refuses to
-> > explain his actions is a clue that he also knows his rationale for
his
-> > actions is unacceptable.  His actions are no more justified than
the
-> > other seller who claims he heard a voice inside his head telling
him to
-> > blow up the VCF because everyone is plotting against him to ensure
that he
-> > doesn't sell anything.
-> >
->
-> Some people make a living by buying and selling surplus. They are not
-> "classic computer collectors"

But where is their market? CLASSIC COMPUTER COLLECTORS.

-> and do not "owe anything to the community".

But with the childish attitude described here, which shows total
disrespect towards the intended market, how can they expect to develop a
relationship with their intended buyers?

-> Theirs is hard and risky work with no guarantees, it isn't "easy
money".

While this is true for all vendors of vintage equipment, a vendor with a
"business ethic" of "If I can't sell it for what I want for it, I'll
destroy it." had just better give it up and find another line of work
(and perhaps a good shrink, also).

-> To dismiss their desire to maximize their profit (so
-> that they can do things like eat and pay the rent) as "being
-> greedy" is patently absurd and does not merit further comment.

I detect an attempted diversion here.  No one can be faulted for
maximizing their profit, if it is done ethically.  I know that the
destruction of vintage equipment just for the reason that it did not
sell for the asking price is well outside the ethics of the majority of
us in the vintage computer field. The destruction of vintage equipment
in a belief that this will somehow increase the value of the remaining
is "patently absurd" and certainly does deserve comment.  What other
motive can be ascribed to an action such as this?  Greed (and
selfishness) certainly fit.

For example:  I own a rare S-100 CP/M system of which there are known to
be only 10 others at the most in existence, none in the hands of
collectors.  I locate the others and destroy them, knowing mine now
becomes not just rare, but the only one left.  Did I increase its value?
Sure. Driven by greed?  You bet.  Would _I_ do this?  Hell, no.

Another example:  I'm Joe Seller.  I have no interest in collecting.  I
just want to make the big bucks.  I found a warehouse full of PDP's from
the 1960's.  I bought them all for scrap prices.  Should I scrap most of
them and keep just a few to sell, reasoning that I don't want to flood
the market and drive my prices down?  In your example and given
rationale, your seller likely would. Reason?  Greed, driven by a big
helping of foolishness and faulty business sense.

I feel that any seller who is known to trash and/or destroy equipment
that doesn't sell, especially when reasonable offers have been made,
should be banned from future selling whenever possible.  If they can't
sell it, they won't buy it.  If they don't buy it, it will be left for
someone else to find, someone with hopefully a more responsible
attitude.  If it ends up in a landfill because it wasn't "found", it
_is_ a loss, but what's the difference?  The difference is that we won't
have to associate with those sellers who just don't understand ethics
(and really don't sell much anyway).

No field of collecting tolerates this behavior and we shouldn't be any
different.

Bill


->
-> --
-> Aaron Nabil
->


From harrison at timharrison.com  Thu Oct 19 01:33:37 2000
From: harrison at timharrison.com (Tim Harrison)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: Enough already! (was: Re: MS Laugh-In)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010182039030.14933-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <39EE95C1.1B72B008@timharrison.com>

Sellam Ismail wrote:

> This is the second reference I've seen this week to complaining about
> Linux crashing.  I find this to be ludicrous.

I don't.  I've been using Linux since the early 1.x kernels.  I've found
it to crash quite often.  If you do certain things to prevent that, it
crashes *MUCH* less.  Linux is a great server, as long as it does a
specific task, and that's it.  If you make it do too much, it starts to
suck.  That's where Solaris blows it off the map.
 
> Look, if Linux crashes, it's because YOU did something wrong or
> something's wrong with your hardware.  Windows just crashes for seemingly
> no good reason.  Linux doesn't.

Not so.  Ever just clicked repeatedly on the back arrow in Netscape
4.75?  If you hit one of those pages that won't let you use the Back
arrow to return, you'll lock the entire box.  Netscape is garbage, yes,
but it will still lock the box.  It's not the user's fault.  It's not
hardware.  It's Netscape being big, bloated, and horribly written.

And, it's people saying things like "YOU did something wrong" that gives
Linux users and advocates a bad name.  How about finding out what
they're running?  How about finding out what they were doing at that
time?  How about finding out what hardware they have?  Telling someone
they did something wrong is unnecessarily harsh, and rather insulting. 
You never know... this guy could be very modest, yet know far more about
Linux than you.  I'm not saying this is the case, but it could be.  Or,
he could be looking for a little reassurance, and you just made him feel
like an idiot, causing him to return to Windows, and forget about trying
new things.

Have some consideration.  That's something I've found lacking in your
recent posts.

> I have a brand new Dell machine.  I primarily run IE, a solid telnet
> client (CRT), a good mail reader (Pegasus), Word, Works, Napster, and
> whatnot.  Nothing too exotic or risky.  Windows crashes.  I have to reboot
> about 2 times a month.
> 
> Fix my computer, Ernest :)

Why don't you fix your computer?  Just because you have a brand new Dell
does not mean that it's flawless.  You could have some bitched hardware,
or, as unloaded as it might be, your box could have some software
issues.  It's been known to happen, believe it or not.

> You're obviously going about this the wrong way.  Why not pick something
> stable like RH 6.2 and just stick with it?  That's what I did, and my
> server's been up constantly for months now.  Stop trying to be on the
> bleeding edge.

And I've managed, and maintained Red Hat 6.2 servers that were broken
horribly.  Red Hat doesn't solve your ills.

And nothing is "obvious".  He's given you no information to go on.  I
think you're jumping to a conclusion you shouldn't.

> This argument is sickening.  Calling Windows an OS in the same sentence as
> mentioning Linux is wrong in the most dire sense of the word.

Not in the slightest.  In case you didn't notice, Windows is an OS. 
Windows9x is a DOS-based operating system, but an OS, nonetheless. 
Windows2000 is an OS (originally a VMS and OS/2 hybrid with NT, but an
OS nonetheless).  Linux is a kernel.  The OS is based on the GNU tools. 
So, actually, if you want to be like that, Linux is not an OS. 
GNU/Linux is.
 
> No, it's not reasonable.  You just have this attitude because, as you
> plainly have acknowledge, you make a living off of the misery that people
> must suffer due to the shit products that one software company has forced
> onto the world with their f-ed up marketing practices.

People tend to find more problems when the situation is more common. 
The more you use something, the more you're going to find issues with
it.  The more popular something is, the more people are going to try to
take it down.  Think of the recent battle with the OpenBSD crew. 
They've been hawking their "no root exploits in 3 years" banner, and
suddenly, people went after them.  Picking apart their methods, their
findings, and their process for fixing and releasing patches.  It's not
because they are bad at what they do.  It's because they've shown
they're strong, and people want to take them down.  It's silly, but it's
the case.  And you can see this with plain ol' popularity.

Yes, MS's practices are slimey.  And they've been shown to the world
like that.  But, people fall for it.  And that's their choice.  I choose
not to.  Why would you make this guy feel stupid for trying out Linux? 
You should be praising him, and helping him along when he has problems.

> Again, you're doing something wrong.  I think I see the problem.  You're
> approaching Linux as you would with Windows.  Windows needs every patch
> that comes out for it because it is fundamentally flawed. Linux does not.
> You just don't get it.

He's approaching it in his way.  If he patches the hell out of his box,
that's fine.  I do it.  And guess what?  My box is pretty damned
stable.  All of my machines are.  I keep an eye out for security issues,
look for them myself, and patching is one way.  It's a necessity if
you're on the net, as well.  Either you keep up, or you get rooted, and
you're reinstalling every two days.
 
> Sorry to carry on this lame thread, but it is sometimes necessary to
> dispell ignorant obfuscation of the facts.

And sometimes, people who preach too violently can miss the facts.  Tone
down your rhetoric, and turn on your brain.  This guy wasn't attacking
you, so why attack him.

And to the original poster, my apologies for you having to endure this
tirade.  I applaud your efforts, and your willingness to tinker, and
compare, and decide for yourself.

-- 


Tim Harrison
Network Engineer
harrison@timharrison.com
http://www.networklevel.com/

From foo at siconic.com  Thu Oct 19 00:33:42 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: [Still] Need I.D. on IMSAI parts
In-Reply-To: <006701c03989$17964240$249eb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010182220230.15220-100000@siconic.com>

On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Wayne M. Smith wrote:

> Does no one know what these parts are for?  My
> suspicion is that it's for an IMSAI 8080 given the no.
> of LEDs.

Wayne, there are two clues to what this is for.  At the top of the page it
says PIO, and one of the parts in the list is "PC Board, PIO Rev. 2".

I am looking through an IMSAI manual I had handy and the PIO was one of
the boards that I didn't have an assembly section for.  However, I have an
original IMSAI catalog, and the PIO board is pictured.  I can easily make
out 4 banks of 8 LEDs each (32 LEDs) plus the label on the board: "PIO
Rev-2".

So, we can determine that these are the pieces for an unassembled IMSAI
PIO board (parallel interface).

:)

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Thu Oct 19 02:02:42 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: Beginner into Micros, etc.
In-Reply-To: <200010181935.e9IJZEQ03101@bender.ndx.net>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001018125945.02496c70@binhost.com> from "Tarsi"
 at Oct 18, 2000 01:12:09 PM
Message-ID: <l03102801b6144b35d002@[192.168.1.4]>

>You may also consider paying a larger sum for a fulling working system with
>disks, docs, etc to get you going for now. It took me over a year to boot
>my first PDP which was annoying.

Generally I am a real cheapskate, ie homeless people think of me as a bit
too frugal, but I have found a great deal of satisfaction can result from
biting the bullet and PAYING for key items to make a system work.

OTOH I have had the experience of months of struggle to get a system
working, followed by total disinterest in the end result. The converse of
the first part about buying critical items is not to be greedy with systems
that you have lost personal interest in, PASS THEM ON to others even if you
lose money overall.



From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au  Tue Oct 17 04:35:19 2000
From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: Free Intel MDS
Message-ID: <001701c0381d$91869fe0$dadf8490@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au>

I'm local to them and have made contact by phone but got a fuzzy answer.
They'll check it out.
I note the web page was last updated in February 1999.

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe <rigdonj@intellistar.net>
To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Date: Thursday, 19 October 2000 7:49
Subject: Free Intel MDS


>  I was searching for more info on the Inel MDS and found this ad for a
>free one. "http://www.dazed.org/blazermate/". There just one hitch, it's
>located in NSW, Australia.  I don't know any more about it. If someone
>picks it up leet me know.
>
>    Joe
>
>


From eric at brouhaha.com  Thu Oct 19 03:25:34 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: Enough already! (was: Re: MS Laugh-In)
In-Reply-To: <39EE95C1.1B72B008@timharrison.com> (message from Tim Harrison on
	Thu, 19 Oct 2000 02:33:37 -0400)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010182039030.14933-100000@siconic.com> <39EE95C1.1B72B008@timharrison.com>
Message-ID: <20001019082534.12680.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Tim Harrison <harrison@timharrison.com> wrote:
> Not so.  Ever just clicked repeatedly on the back arrow in Netscape
> 4.75?  If you hit one of those pages that won't let you use the Back
> arrow to return, you'll lock the entire box.  Netscape is garbage, yes,

[Neil wrote much the same thing.]

I've done such things with Netscape, and I've never managed to
get it to crash the Linux kernel.  I've had Netscape crash, and I've had
it crash the X server, and I've had it use up all available VM, but
in all cases the Linux kernel continued running just fine.

Arguably it is a deficiency in the kernel that per-process memory limits
aren't implemented (despite there being an API to set them).

The only times I've had seen crashes have been when my hardware was flaky
or I was running a development kernel, or a locally patched "stable" kernel.

Anyhow, this is way off topic.


From eric at brouhaha.com  Thu Oct 19 03:43:49 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: forklift rental in San Jose, CA?
Message-ID: <20001019084349.12830.qmail@brouhaha.com>

[more about the computer rescue mentioned in my last message]

Unloading in Milpitas, CA will be even more fun since we don't have a
loading dock at this end, the ramp isn't wide enough, and the truck
companies won't rent trucks with lift gates for one-way moves.
Apparently they don't think that people move large heavy awkward items
one-way.  It's a shame since I know from personal experience that a
VAX-11/780 (or 785) will just fit on the lift gate of Budget's 15-foot
trucks.  (For safety, I recommend having at least three people to
stabilize a VAX while a fourth operates the lift.  However, in an
amazing display of sheer stupidity, a friend and I unloaded a 785 by
ourselves.)

Has anyone had experience with forklift rental?  I did a web search
and turned up *zero* hits.  From a different rescue operation, it
is known that a forklift is a excellent way to move a PDP-11/60,
which is almost as big as the 11/780.  However, that time there was a
lumber yard across the street that was willing to send the forklift
and operator over to help; this time there's no lumber yard nearby.  :-(

Eric

From vcf at siconic.com  Thu Oct 19 02:53:22 2000
From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: used items (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010190052230.15334-100000@siconic.com>


Here is a guy in Columbia, Pennsylvania with some that needs to find a new
home. As always, please contact the original sender.

Reply-To: lizric@earthlink.net


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 16:25:9 -0400
From: Richard Mackison <lizric@earthlink.net>
Subject: used items

Hi 
I have a few items that you may or may not be interested in. TI-99/4A
w/voice syn. plus some games, Laser 128(APPLE 11C clone), with software,
12" monitor 80 model BM7622 LA amber phosphor, and last printer Seikosha
model SP1000. Every thing works and is in original box.

Rick Mackison


--- lizric@earthlink.net
--- EarthLink: It's your Internet.


Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org




From enrico.badella at softstar.it  Thu Oct 19 04:19:08 2000
From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: forklift rental in San Jose, CA?
References: <20001019084349.12830.qmail@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <39EEBC8C.D6A25604@softstar.it>


Eric Smith wrote:
> 
> Has anyone had experience with forklift rental?  I did a web search
> and turned up *zero* hits.  From a different rescue operation, it
> is known that a forklift is a excellent way to move a PDP-11/60,

I know this is not too applicable since I'm in Italy, but when we moved
our 4381 to the museum I called all the companies selling fork lifts in my
area. Most of them were willing to rent them but only for a minimum of
one week and the cost was too high. At the end we used a single big truck
used for food transportation (was refrigerated too, but turned off) that
had a what-ever-its-called moving/raising platform. Had no problems lifting a
2 CPU 4381 and 3480 tapes. It was so big that the whole data center fit 
inside and there was some room left; we put a dismantled Convex inside..
got some photos of that day.

At a customer's site they have 3 780 waiting for their last trip; last
week they just decommissioned 3 11/70 on of which in a DEC DATASYSTEM 720
cabinet (don't remember the exact number). Wish I had more room; maybe 
a should junk my 11/40 ;-)

Eric, what are you moving? I lost your previous posting. Are you betraying 
your iAPX 432?

e.

========================================================================
Enrico Badella                       email:   enrico.badella@softstar.it
Soft*Star srl                                 eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it
InterNetworking Specialists          tel:     +39-011-746092            
Via Camburzano 9                     fax:     +39-011-746487
10143 Torino, Italy

  Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software,
  manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals
==========================================================================

From nabil at SpiritOne.com  Thu Oct 19 04:23:47 2000
From: nabil at SpiritOne.com (Aaron Nabil)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
In-Reply-To: <000201c0398f$fbd94280$9f9e72d1@cobweb.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.21.0010190123290.27478-100000@ridge.spiritone.com>

On Thu, 19 Oct 2000, Bill Dawson wrote:
> -> > -> > > Aaron Nabil <nabil@SpiritOne.com>
> -> > . . .
> -> Some people make a living by buying and selling surplus. They are not
> -> "classic computer collectors"
> 
> But where is their market? CLASSIC COMPUTER COLLECTORS.
> 
> -> and do not "owe anything to the community".
> 
> But with the childish attitude described here, which shows total
> disrespect towards the intended market, how can they expect to develop a
> relationship with their intended buyers?

People who buy and sell surplus have a much wider market than "classic
computer collectors" or they are out of business.  If anything, the
collectors are the fringe weirdos who hang around the warehouse
sniffing about the dumpsters and making absurdly low offers on
things.  Ie, me.

> -> Theirs is hard and risky work with no guarantees, it isn't "easy
> money".
> 
> While this is true for all vendors of vintage equipment, a vendor with a
> "business ethic" of "If I can't sell it for what I want for it, I'll
> destroy it." had just better give it up and find another line of work
> (and perhaps a good shrink, also).

A more accurate rendition would be "If I can't get the minimum price
I want for it, I won't sell it to you for less even though I might end up
throwing it away later."  Which seems perfectly reasonable to me.  I trust
sellers are sufficiently motivated by pressures like "eating" and "paying
the rent" that they will always accept a truly reasonable offer.    

> -> To dismiss their desire to maximize their profit (so
> -> that they can do things like eat and pay the rent) as "being
> -> greedy" is patently absurd and does not merit further comment.
> 
> I detect an attempted diversion here.  No one can be faulted for
> maximizing their profit, if it is done ethically.  I know that the
> destruction of vintage equipment just for the reason that it did not
> sell for the asking price is well outside the ethics of the majority of
> us in the vintage computer field. 

Well, one problem is what you are defining as "vintage" and as "unethical
to dumpster" might be what the vendor defines as crap.  There is a wide
range of what people consider "vintage" (certainly most of the computers
being discussed on this list fall more into the "crap" category than
"vintage" in my mind, but that's just my personal tastes).  The list
reports of "Ooo! I just rescued a Radio Shack COCO from Goodwill!" seems
only an fraction less silly to me than someone reporting that they
"rescued" a 15 inch VGA monitor from Goodwill.  So to you it might be a
"precious piece of computer history", to the vendor it's a "piece of crap
some crazy people might think is valuable".  And the dumpstering of it,
from your point of view, is "destruction of this country's computing
heritage" while to the vendor it's "getting rid of the garbage the freaks
wouldn't buy".  To the vendor it isn't a ethics question but a logistics
one.

> The destruction of vintage equipment
> in a belief that this will somehow increase the value of the remaining
> is "patently absurd" and certainly does deserve comment.  What other
> motive can be ascribed to an action such as this?  Greed (and
> selfishness) certainly fit.

The problem is that it does "somehow" increase the value.  The somehow was
detailed in chapter 1 of your Econ 101 book.

If you want to label the desire to maximize profit as "greed and
selfishness" you are welcome to but it's not a very realistic way of
looking at how the world works.

> For example:  I own a rare S-100 CP/M system of which there are known to
> be only 10 others at the most in existence, none in the hands of
> collectors.  I locate the others and destroy them, knowing mine now
> becomes not just rare, but the only one left.  Did I increase its value?
> Sure. Driven by greed?  You bet.  Would _I_ do this?  Hell, no.
> 
> Another example:  I'm Joe Seller.  I have no interest in collecting.  I
> just want to make the big bucks.  I found a warehouse full of PDP's from
> the 1960's.  I bought them all for scrap prices.  Should I scrap most of
> them and keep just a few to sell, reasoning that I don't want to flood
> the market and drive my prices down?  In your example and given
> rationale, your seller likely would. Reason?  Greed, driven by a big
> helping of foolishness and faulty business sense.

Well, he might do that.  More power to him.  I wouldn't call that "greed",
and without analyzing the numbers I certainly wouldn't be in the position
to call it "foolish" or a "faulty business sense".  If he maximizes the
return on his investment by scrapping most of it and selling the best
bits, then that's what he should do.  What is foolish is second-guessing
other people when you aren't in their place.

> I feel that any seller who is known to trash and/or destroy equipment
> that doesn't sell, especially when reasonable offers have been made,
> should be banned from future selling whenever possible.  If they can't
> sell it, they won't buy it.  If they don't buy it, it will be left for
> someone else to find, someone with hopefully a more responsible
> attitude.  If it ends up in a landfill because it wasn't "found", it
> _is_ a loss, but what's the difference?  The difference is that we won't
> have to associate with those sellers who just don't understand ethics
> (and really don't sell much anyway).

Sounds like a plan to me.  Good luck. ;)

> No field of collecting tolerates this behavior and we shouldn't be any
> different.
> 
> Bill

Aaron Nabil


From jpl15 at panix.com  Thu Oct 19 04:27:13 2000
From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: forklift rental in San Jose, CA?
In-Reply-To: <20001019084349.12830.qmail@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0010190513190.14773-100000@panix2.panix.com>



 Renting a forklift is usually not a problem; most large industrial 
equipment rental yards have several species of lift truck for hire.

 Operating the said device, and transporting it, is the problem. To hire a
forklift for a remote site job requires that you get it there, and small
ones are generally not very roadable, even if street-legal. Therefore, you
need it delivered and picked up, usually with a four-hour minimum,
sometimes more. If you haven't had much experience with them, it might be
better to hire one with operator: all this gets prohibitive fast.

  Have you considered heavy lumber ramps, ropes w/block and tackle, and a
few hardy StrongPersons to *ease* it down the ramp?  I have unloaded some
fairly heavy items myself, using readily-available lifting aids, wood, and
a little thinking and planning.  For example, I got a *big* CDC SMD drive,
and it was put onto my pickup truck by four guys using a loading dock.  At
home, I used a chain hoist and 4x4 spreader bars, and nylon flat cinching
straps to lift it off the truck, drive the truck away, and lower it
down. Took three hours, but what else could I do with 700 pounds  o' gear?

  Just some thoughts.  A forklift is certainly best in your situation,
if the costs make sense.

 In California, look for a chain of places called 'Sam's U-Drive'.

 Cheers

John



From marvin at rain.org  Thu Oct 19 05:13:25 2000
From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: forklift rental in San Jose, CA?
References: <20001019084349.12830.qmail@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <39EEC945.CD152F1@rain.org>



Eric Smith wrote:
> 
> Has anyone had experience with forklift rental?  I did a web search
> and turned up *zero* hits.  From a different rescue operation, it

You might well find it FAR less expensive to rent a truck with a tailgate at
your destination and use the rented truck instead of renting a forklift".

From cem14 at cornell.edu  Thu Oct 19 06:57:58 2000
From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: Enough already! (was: Re: MS Laugh-In)
In-Reply-To: <MPBBIHIJJHCCOBHIHBAJMEELMLAB.ernestls@home.com>
References: <018d01c03971$74f317f0$69749a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20001019075758.012b31d0@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu>

At 08:55 PM 10/18/00 -0700, you wrote a thoughtful note:
>With that in mind, I've wondered for some time if Windows (like Linux)
>crashes so often because of a lack of user understanding, and poorly
>designed third party software, or because Windows simply a badly coded piece
>of OS.
>
>I know that my personal computer, at home, running Win95, and now Win2000
>never crashes, even when I do something stupid that I expect will cause
>problems. I don't believe that this is because of good luck, or because
>Windows is great. I believe that it's because, through my years of
>supporting it, and working with it, I've intuitively learned it's
>limitations.

I've also got to know its limitations.  The problem is, what I expect
a computer to be able to do seems to be beyond those limitations.  I
have some software development stuff in mine, together with some
multitrack recording and editing software, and some SCSI equipment
(the controller is an adaptec AHA2940UW).  With win95, the SCSI+sound
experience was an unbearable pain -- it crashed and crashed until
it became non-bootable.  And complete reinstalls are not an option
for me: I have a sufficiently specialized setup that reinstalling everything
takes longer than one week, full-time.  I changed to win98 and the
machine has been more stable (not yet perfect, though).  Of course,
I use Netscape instead of IE, Eudora instead of Outlook, TeX instead
of Word (though I do have it installed because sometimes people send
me documents; sigh), Watcom C, Codewarrior and GCC instead of MSVC/MSVB,
DEC Visual Fortran instead of MS Powerstation (_power_-station? hahaha!
it hurts to mention it, and not because I'm laughing hard!).  

> At my office, the machines that I purchase and setup myself are
>stable. This is because I research what software plays well with Windows and
>avoid that which doesn't, and because I choose hardware that I've learned to
>trust -like Asus, and 3com.

For me, win95 crashed with just adaptec, 3Com, matrox and SoundBlaster Gold
cards.  I'd hardly call these obscure brands in the PCI adapter world.

>My Linux box crashes more often than my Windows box, and I'm the first to
>admit that it's because I don't know what the hell I'm doing, when I use it.
>Does that mean that Linux is designed badly? If Linux is so great, why is
>there an almost daily alert in my inbox from bugzilla, reporting some
>security risk or other newly found flaw?

The comparison is unfair because of two reasons:

1) There will always be more bugs/security flaws _reported_ for Linux
   because the user base is more demanding (after all that's why they're
   running Linux) and because more people will be checking the open
   source for problems.  That doesn't mean that Linux is more bug-prone;
   just that reporting is better.

2) Bugs actually get fixed (quickly) in Linux.

See, the Linux mentality is that we'd rather discover the flaws so we
can fix them. The MS mentality is: let's put crap out and hope that they
don't find the holes, and, if they do find them, we'll tell them to upgrade
to the next generation of winblows. Only if the flaw is bad enough, we'll
release a patch.


> As a frustrated new Linux user,
>that doesn't build my trust in it but I still like using it. I wonder if
>Linux proponents, like the early Apple users, have simply decided that their
>OS is better than Windows, whether it's a truly better OS or not, simply
>because they don't like Microsoft. I don't like Microsoft but that doesn't
>mean that Linux is great. Linux is what it is, and that has nothing to do
>with Microsoft.

There will always be some OS rivalry based on XenoOSphobia.  But,
most people who hate windows are not unfamiliar with it--rather,
they hate it because they are all too familiar with it.


>I hope that Linux develops into the
>incredible OS that it can be (please, GOD, let it be so) but until then,
>I'll be patient with MS Windows to.

But MS won't be patient with you.  Until we see some real competition,
they have the upper hand: they can put crap out, and it will be bought.



carlos.




From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Thu Oct 19 08:37:52 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: Intel MDS  Monitor
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001019083752.3b67740c@mailhost.intellistar.net>

    Didn't some ne here on the list state that the monitor in their MDS was
dead?  If so, contact me, I've found two monitors in a scrap place.

    Joe


From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Thu Oct 19 08:46:58 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: motorola Exordisk III with 2 8" floppy drives  FS
In-Reply-To: <44.824bb3f.271fc532@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001019084658.3b67dba4@mailhost.intellistar.net>

At 11:32 PM 10/18/00 EDT, Paxton wrote:
>In a message dated 10/18/00 4:56:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
>rigdonj@intellistar.net writes:
>
>> motorola Exordisk III
> <A HREF="http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=467562310">
>eBay item 467562310 (Ends Oct-23-00 11:51:30 PDT) - motorola Exordisk III
with
></A>
>
>This is the correct link for the Exordisk. 
>Paxton  
>

   Yes, I just tried it and it worked. You don't need the HREF part though,
just use; "http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=467562310"

     Joe


From enrico.badella at softstar.it  Thu Oct 19 07:52:37 2000
From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: Enough already! (was: Re: MS Laugh-In)
References: <018d01c03971$74f317f0$69749a8d@ajp166> <3.0.2.32.20001019075758.012b31d0@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu>
Message-ID: <39EEEE95.93968B05@softstar.it>



Carlos Murillo wrote:
> 
> >My Linux box crashes more often than my Windows box, and I'm the first to
> >admit that it's because I don't know what the hell I'm doing, when I use it.

Now this is quite unusual! I've been a long time Linux user, but no great fan
since I really prefer OpenBSD or in general BSD derivative! It has been
years that Linux kernels have crashed on me, while my NT SP6 now that I've
added a soundblaster live has the tendancy of giving me a BSOD quite
frequently. How can NT with MS audio drivers crash? This is only
acceptable if you are doing your own drivers or hacking the kernel.

>From a commercial product I would expect a reliability at least as Solaris
or VMS (well here I've asking probably too much)

Have you every though about docs? If you don't ave resource kit, that kit
other kit there is no way to get info about processes running un a NT box.
At least on unix you can do a man xxxxx. who knows what smss.exe or csrss.exe
do?

e.

========================================================================
Enrico Badella                       email:   enrico.badella@softstar.it
Soft*Star srl                                 eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it
InterNetworking Specialists          tel:     +39-011-746092            
Via Camburzano 9                     fax:     +39-011-746487
10143 Torino, Italy

  Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software,
  manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals
==========================================================================

From dburrows at netpath.net  Thu Oct 19 07:22:01 2000
From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: forklift rental in San Jose, CA?
Message-ID: <00af01c039c9$062e20f0$a652e780@L166>

If you have or can readily borrow a farm tractor you can use a boom pole.  I
have done this several times with some pieces that were pushing 1000+
pounds.  Not quite as nice as a fork lift but it does work.  I am currently
keeping my eyes open for a fork lift attachment for a 3 point hitch.
If you go this route make sure it is a good size tractor and it has a fair
amount of front end weights.  Expect to do all your turning with the brakes
as there won't be much control with the front tires.
This is from experience on a 60 HP diesel with 200 pounds of front wheel
weights.

Dan


From dburrows at netpath.net  Thu Oct 19 07:33:23 2000
From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: BA23 w/RA70
Message-ID: <00b001c039c9$074bc5f0$a652e780@L166>



>> The box may be an earlier model, badged microPDP11, so
>> I have to wonder if the VAX, 2 mem bds, kda50, RA70,
>> RQDX3 (for the RX33) and a DELQA would be too much for
>
>Be very careful with that chassis!  If it was really a MicroPDP, it will
>have an 18 bit qbus backplane in it.  It will _destroy_ 22 bit qbus boards
>since there are power pins on the 18 bit bus that mate to data pins on the
>22 bit bus.
>
>Then again, my memory may be completely broken and I've got it all wrong.
:)
>
>g.

I think you are remembering the BA11S and others.  All the BA23's I have had
and seen have all had 22 bit backplanes.  ( I have at least 15 BA23's at the
moment.)

Dan


From rmeenaks at olf.com  Thu Oct 19 08:15:57 2000
From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: SCSI-based floppy drives (3.5 or 5.25)
References: <39EDB7F6.8040607@olf.com> <39EE72D4.BAE1B5D@idirect.com>
Message-ID: <03b201c039ce$ba0f3960$f1ea0191@olf.com>

Hi Jerome,

It is not that I was trying to keep the project hush, hush.  I thought most
people would not be too interested in the dry details.  The basic thing is I
need a floppy media that is SCSI as that is the only disk interface I have.
I am in the process of creating a truly standalone transputer workstation.
Transputers
usually use a host machine (PCs, SUNs, VAX, etc) for IO including disk
storage, video,
etc.  I do not want to do this.  I currently have a parallel port tram,
video tram, scsi tram,
ethernet trams, gpib tram and whole box full of computation trams.  I am
missing some pieces
like the serial tram and the eeprom tram (which I need be able to do
standalone booting).
All of this is going to be housed using a PC motherboard which is only going
to be used as
a ISA bus chasis providing power for the cards.  I am going to remove ALL PC
related boards
from the motherboard.   I could use a ZIP drive, etc, but a true floppy
drive will make it more realistic.
It is basically my version of the ATW800 atari transputer workstation, but
only better (hopefully).  Thanks
for your help....


Ram


From oliv555 at arrl.net  Thu Oct 19 08:37:44 2000
From: oliv555 at arrl.net (no)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: BA23 w/RA70
References: <PGEOIPOKPPLEFPGCLAFAAEIHCDAA.geneb@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <39EEF928.FF5F585F@arrl.net>



Gene Buckle wrote:
> 
> > The box may be an earlier model, badged microPDP11, so
> > I have to wonder if the VAX, 2 mem bds, kda50, RA70,
> > RQDX3 (for the RX33) and a DELQA would be too much for
> 
> Be very careful with that chassis!  If it was really a MicroPDP, it will
> have an 18 bit qbus backplane in it.  It will _destroy_ 22 bit qbus boards
> since there are power pins on the 18 bit bus that mate to data pins on the
> 22 bit bus.
> 
> Then again, my memory may be completely broken and I've got it all wrong. :)
> 
> g.

Hmmm... I thought BA23s were all 22-bit backplane...

From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Thu Oct 19 09:54:41 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: FS:  HP 9845B with extras   Attn: Canuks!
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001019095441.3b1f192e@mailhost.intellistar.net>

  Who says there's never any good computer stuff available in Canada?
There's a LOADED HP-9845B for sale on E-bay. The HP_9845 was HP's top of
the line desktop calculator and it's a hell of a machine!  It's located in
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.

  "http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=472936502"

Description
HP 9845B

HP 9845B Desktop Computer, with 98035A Real Time Clock module,98034A 
Revised 98034A HP-IB Interface,the green rom drawer with 98412A Option 
312 I/O Rom, and the black rom drawer with I/O 98412A and Graphics 
98411A roms, a 633 page manual called General Utility Routines, with 3 
Program cartridge tapes, HP (2)98032A 16 Bit Interface Installation and 
Service Manuals, 98034A HP-IB Interface Installation and service manual, 
also a quick reference guide. The pictures below show the computer in a 
running mode, on a further power on, the fuse blew and that is the 
status of the unit now NON working. The unit is very heavy approximately 
90 lbs and shipping will be around $130.00 depending on location. 

  See the ad for pictures.  See my write up about the HP 98xx machines at
"www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/9800.htm" for more details about the HP 9845
and other 98xx machines.

    Joe


From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com  Thu Oct 19 09:01:27 2000
From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: Vax 11 -7/80 (plus equipment)
In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB215@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>
Message-ID: <13588649564.19.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com>

I'm in Peoria, IL...  I have spares for an 11/780 and such.  I might be able
to clear some room for it if nobody else can take it; let me know if it's
in danger of going to the dumpster.

Although I'd much rather have a KS10... ^_^
-------

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Thu Oct 19 09:00:43 2000
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: Enough already! (was: Re: MS Laugh-In)
In-Reply-To: <39EE8B16.2A61E0B5@home.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010190659370.6813-100000@war.deltasoft.com>

> Here I must heatedly disagree with you! Remember that I am a Linux fanatic
> but such a statement is blatantly incorrect. I can, by using Netscape,
> crash any Linux! Just hold down the Page Up or Page down on certain HTML
> documents and the system will lock up hard. Only a reset will clear it.
> 
Do me a favor.  Go ahead and perform this trick with Netscape, then after
it freezes, try hitting ctrl-alt-backspace and see if X dies like it
should.

g.



From cem14 at cornell.edu  Thu Oct 19 09:27:17 2000
From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: Mac II question
Message-ID: <39EF04C5.7C1EFB8@cornell.edu>


I found a nice Mac II yesterday with Natl. Instruments HPIB,
20MB memory, Asante NIC, and framebuffer.  What makes it
special is that it has a Daystar accelerator that plugs
in the 68020 and MMU sockets; the accelerator
has a 68040 @ 33Mhz.  I had not planned to keep any NuBus
machine (I'm tossing stuff out due to an impending long trip),
but, since I have the Natl. Instruments software for the
HPIB card, and some other interesting Nubus DSP cards,
I am tempted to keep it...  so I thought I'd ask some questions
to help me make up my mind.

Does anybody know more about this accelerator? What kind of
performance does it yield compared to, say, one of the later
Quadras?  Are there basic differences in the I/O and bus
architecture that will prevent the 68040 from reaching its
full potential on a Mac II mainboard as opposed to a 68040
in a Quadra? Do Quadras have faster SCSI?  

Also, the machine has two floppy drives; how do the Mac II
drives rank among those found in Apple machines in terms of
usefulness/durability?

Thanks for your suggestions,

Carlos.


-- 
Carlos Murillo-Sanchez    email:  cem14@cornell.edu  
428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department
Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Thu Oct 19 09:30:51 2000
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: BA23 w/RA70
In-Reply-To: <00b001c039c9$074bc5f0$a652e780@L166>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010190729530.6813-100000@war.deltasoft.com>

> >Be very careful with that chassis!  If it was really a MicroPDP, it will
> >have an 18 bit qbus backplane in it.  It will _destroy_ 22 bit qbus boards
> >since there are power pins on the 18 bit bus that mate to data pins on the
> >22 bit bus.
> >
> >Then again, my memory may be completely broken and I've got it all wrong.
> :)
> >
> >g.
> 
> I think you are remembering the BA11S and others.  All the BA23's I have had
> and seen have all had 22 bit backplanes.  ( I have at least 15 BA23's at the
> moment.)

I think I was thinking of the BA123 I've got that IS a uPDP-11.  (full of
boards too *sigh*)

g.



From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Thu Oct 19 11:03:53 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: Mac II question
In-Reply-To: <39EF04C5.7C1EFB8@cornell.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001019110353.3b1fd27c@mailhost.intellistar.net>

Carlos,

   That NI GP-IB card may not be GP-IB!  I have a NI NuBus card with what
looks like a HP_IB connector but I couldn't find it on NI's site so I
E-mailed them and asked about it. It turns out that it isn't GP-IB but some
kind of data aquision card.  I don't remember the model number but it's
around here somewhere.

     Joe


At 10:27 AM 10/19/00 -0400, you wrote:
>
>I found a nice Mac II yesterday with Natl. Instruments HPIB,
>20MB memory, Asante NIC, and framebuffer.  What makes it
>special is that it has a Daystar accelerator that plugs
>in the 68020 and MMU sockets; the accelerator
>has a 68040 @ 33Mhz.  I had not planned to keep any NuBus
>machine (I'm tossing stuff out due to an impending long trip),
>but, since I have the Natl. Instruments software for the
>HPIB card, and some other interesting Nubus DSP cards,
>I am tempted to keep it...  so I thought I'd ask some questions
>to help me make up my mind.
>
>Does anybody know more about this accelerator? What kind of
>performance does it yield compared to, say, one of the later
>Quadras?  Are there basic differences in the I/O and bus
>architecture that will prevent the 68040 from reaching its
>full potential on a Mac II mainboard as opposed to a 68040
>in a Quadra? Do Quadras have faster SCSI?  
>
>Also, the machine has two floppy drives; how do the Mac II
>drives rank among those found in Apple machines in terms of
>usefulness/durability?
>
>Thanks for your suggestions,
>
>Carlos.
>
>
>-- 
>Carlos Murillo-Sanchez    email:  cem14@cornell.edu  
>428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department
>Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853
>


From ncherry at home.net  Thu Oct 19 10:08:30 2000
From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: Enough already! (was: Re: MS Laugh-In)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010190659370.6813-100000@war.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <39EF0E6E.AAC0EEDD@home.net>

Gene Buckle wrote:
> 
> > Here I must heatedly disagree with you! Remember that I am a Linux fanatic
> > but such a statement is blatantly incorrect. I can, by using Netscape,
> > crash any Linux! Just hold down the Page Up or Page down on certain HTML
> > documents and the system will lock up hard. Only a reset will clear it.
> >

> Do me a favor.  Go ahead and perform this trick with Netscape, then after
> it freezes, try hitting ctrl-alt-backspace and see if X dies like it
> should.

No response to Ctrl-Alt-Backspace, also I'm unable to telent into the box
and any existing telent sessions freeze and eventually time out. The box
is also unpingable. I wasn't kidding about: "only a reset will clear it".

I could go into all the weird things with Netscape but I won't. I can make
it crash and burn in all sorts of unusual ways. I guess that's why I'm now
a test engineer in the networks lab. :-)

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

From foo at siconic.com  Thu Oct 19 09:34:24 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: Enough already! (was: Re: MS Laugh-In)
In-Reply-To: <39EE95C1.1B72B008@timharrison.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010190732450.16097-100000@siconic.com>

On Thu, 19 Oct 2000, Tim Harrison wrote:

> He's approaching it in his way.  If he patches the hell out of his box,
> that's fine.  I do it.  And guess what?  My box is pretty damned
> stable.  All of my machines are.  I keep an eye out for security issues,
> look for them myself, and patching is one way.  It's a necessity if
> you're on the net, as well.  Either you keep up, or you get rooted, and
> you're reinstalling every two days.

My box has been running for over a year now and I have never been
"rooted".  I can't relate to your argument, Chicken Little.

> And sometimes, people who preach too violently can miss the facts.  Tone
> down your rhetoric, and turn on your brain.  This guy wasn't attacking
> you, so why attack him.
> 
> And to the original poster, my apologies for you having to endure this
> tirade.  I applaud your efforts, and your willingness to tinker, and
> compare, and decide for yourself.

Blah blah blah.  More ignorant obfuscation.

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org  Thu Oct 19 10:47:12 2000
From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: decommissioned 11/70
In-Reply-To: <39EEBC8C.D6A25604@softstar.it> from Enrico Badella at "Oct 19,
 2000 11:19:08 am"
Message-ID: <200010191547.e9JFlDm09056@bg-tc-ppp343.monmouth.com>

> 
> Enrico Badella wrote:
> 
> At a customer's site they have 3 780 waiting for their last trip; last
> week they just decommissioned 3 11/70 on of which in a DEC DATASYSTEM 720
> cabinet (don't remember the exact number). Wish I had more room; maybe 
> a should junk my 11/40 ;-)

I seem to remember either 520 or 570 on the datasystem...

I'd love to get a color scan of the front panel. 
Perhaps someone could add it to one of the PDP11 emulators.

Slick blue toggle switches.  The 11/74 piece we had at Princeton, NJ
used the same front panel design in blue.  

Anyone ever see a reall full-up 11/74 and know what it had.

-- 
bpechter@monmouth.com    | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10  
                         | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2
                         | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour 

From b.layer at vikingelectronics.com  Thu Oct 19 10:41:43 2000
From: b.layer at vikingelectronics.com (Bill Layer)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: Mac II question
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001019110353.3b1fd27c@mailhost.intellistar.net>
References: <39EF04C5.7C1EFB8@cornell.edu>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001019103933.00ba1e00@192.168.210.18>

Greets,

> >Does anybody know more about this accelerator?

Look up your MacII on http://www.lowendmac.com and there is (almost always) 
a section with details on the various accelerator options for the model in 
question.

Lowendmac must be the best resource of it's type I have ever encountered. 
They have a wealth of links as well. It's always my first place to turn.




Bill Layer
Sales Technician
<b.layer@vikingelectronics.com>

+----------------------------------+
      Viking Electronics, Inc.
        1531 Industrial St.
     Hudson, WI. 54016 - U.S.A
       715.386.8861 ext. 210
  <http://www.vikingelectronics.com>
+----------------------------------+

"Telecom Solutions for the 21st Century"

  


From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Thu Oct 19 10:49:16 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: Mac II question
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB225@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>

> Does anybody know more about this accelerator? What kind of
> performance does it yield compared to, say, one of the later
> Quadras?  Are there basic differences in the I/O and bus
> architecture that will prevent the 68040 from reaching its
> full potential on a Mac II mainboard as opposed to a 68040
> in a Quadra? Do Quadras have faster SCSI?  

Don't know about the accelerator, Daystar is either out of
the Mac business altogether, or at least not making accelerators
anymore; Sonnet resells some Daystar stuff; a web search should
yield more info.

Quadras vary significantly in their apparant speeds; we've had
Quadra 605s (an LC-II class machine, 16 or 25MHz 040 sans FPU),
Quadra 700s (Mac IIci form factor, 25MHz 040 w/FPU), Quadra 650s
(33MHz 040 w/FPU), Quadra 800s (80MHz 040/40MHz bus w/FPU) and
the similar Quadra 840AV which has two SCSI busses (busi?) using
a different chipset or on-board acrchitecture. 

But as a comparison, on some tasks, the 25MHz 700s are as fast
as the 33MHz 650s; on other tasks, the 650s were faster.

I have a Mac IIci at home with the Radius Rocket installed
(mine is the 33MHz version). Different accelerator (the 
rocket has its own RAM and plugs into a NuBus slot); it is
definitely not as fast as a Q650, and maybe not even as fast
as the Q700. However, software was available called Rocketshare
which made it possible to run the Mac in sort of an SMP mode.

> Also, the machine has two floppy drives; how do the Mac II
> drives rank among those found in Apple machines in terms of
> usefulness/durability?

The earlier 800k floppy drives weren't Superdrives (actually
standard 1.44/2.0MB floppies), IIRC; I think the Mac IIci was
the first with those. Not sure if a retrofit is possible.

Mac owners tend to have been less sophisticated, and either
never cleaned their floppy drives, or cleaned them wrongly;
however, I've seen few that totally quit working. They usually
just refuse to read floppies written on drives other than 
themselves.

regards,
-dq
 

From foo at siconic.com  Thu Oct 19 09:45:45 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.21.0010190123290.27478-100000@ridge.spiritone.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010190740590.16097-100000@siconic.com>

On Thu, 19 Oct 2000, Aaron Nabil wrote:

> "rescued" a 15 inch VGA monitor from Goodwill.  So to you it might be a
> "precious piece of computer history", to the vendor it's a "piece of crap
> some crazy people might think is valuable".  And the dumpstering of it,
> from your point of view, is "destruction of this country's computing
> heritage" while to the vendor it's "getting rid of the garbage the freaks
> wouldn't buy".  To the vendor it isn't a ethics question but a logistics
> one.

I hope you're not taking yourself seriously with these sorts of comments.
I'll reiterate what I said previously, which is that if this is how
vendors are perceiving what they're selling and who they're selling it to
(especially when we're talking about the hobby computer collecting market)
they are in the wrong business.

> If you want to label the desire to maximize profit as "greed and
> selfishness" you are welcome to but it's not a very realistic way of
> looking at how the world works.

It's certainly one valid interpretation.

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org  Thu Oct 19 10:58:33 2000
From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: Enough already
In-Reply-To: <39EE95C1.1B72B008@timharrison.com> from Tim Harrison at "Oct 19,
 2000 02:33:37 am"
Message-ID: <200010191558.e9JFwXk09106@bg-tc-ppp343.monmouth.com>

Tim Harrison wrote:
> Sellam Ismail wrote:
> 
> > This is the second reference I've seen this week to complaining about
> > Linux crashing.  I find this to be ludicrous.
> 
> I don't.  I've been using Linux since the early 1.x kernels.  I've found
> it to crash quite often.  If you do certain things to prevent that, it
> crashes *MUCH* less.  Linux is a great server, as long as it does a
> specific task, and that's it.  If you make it do too much, it starts to
> suck.  That's where Solaris blows it off the map.

Actually, FreeBSD blows both of them off the map...

>  
> > Look, if Linux crashes, it's because YOU did something wrong or
> > something's wrong with your hardware.  Windows just crashes for seemingly
> > no good reason.  Linux doesn't.
> 

No software crashes for no good reason.  It's either broke hardware of 
a fairly serious kind or bad hardware...

>  It's Netscape being big, bloated, and horribly written.

Yup.  I think things got too "feature-d" too quickly with little thought
to maintenance or support.

> Have some consideration.  That's something I've found lacking in your
> recent posts.
> 
> > I have a brand new Dell machine.  I primarily run IE, a solid telnet
> > client (CRT), a good mail reader (Pegasus), Word, Works, Napster, and
> > whatnot.  Nothing too exotic or risky.  Windows crashes.  I have to reboot
> > about 2 times a month.
> > 
> > Fix my computer, Ernest :)

What's the crash:  Problem in GDI.EXE -- possible video driver problem.
I resolved one of those that was about to get a machine swap.

What's the crash info?

> And I've managed, and maintained Red Hat 6.2 servers that were broken
> horribly.  Red Hat doesn't solve your ills.

Boy it sure doesn't... I've given  up on Red Hat.

It's now FreeBSD and Mandrake or Caldera (one Corel box here) for me.

Bill
-- 
bpechter@monmouth.com    | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10  
                         | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2
                         | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour 

From dburrows at netpath.net  Thu Oct 19 10:06:32 2000
From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: BA23 w/RA70
Message-ID: <005b01c039e2$b9b45810$a652e780@L166>

The BA123 is 22 bit.  I use one for a test bed and always keep a spare as I
run it with the covers off and have fried a few power supplies over the
years.  The fans just don't do the job with all the covers off.:(.  The
BA123 is much nicer on the hands to swap boards than a BA23.
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: Gene Buckle <geneb@deltasoft.com>
To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Date: Thursday, October 19, 2000 11:03 AM
Subject: Re: BA23 w/RA70


> >Be very careful with that chassis!  If it was really a MicroPDP, it will
> >have an 18 bit qbus backplane in it.  It will _destroy_ 22 bit qbus
boards
> >since there are power pins on the 18 bit bus that mate to data pins on
the
> >22 bit bus.
> >
> >Then again, my memory may be completely broken and I've got it all wrong.
> :)
> >
> >g.
>
> I think you are remembering the BA11S and others.  All the BA23's I have
had
> and seen have all had 22 bit backplanes.  ( I have at least 15 BA23's at
the
> moment.)

I think I was thinking of the BA123 I've got that IS a uPDP-11.  (full of
boards too *sigh*)

g.



From Mzthompson at aol.com  Thu Oct 19 10:54:41 2000
From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: Vax 11 -7/80 (plus equipment)
Message-ID: <ba.c5a3225.27207341@aol.com>

Neil Cherry <ncherry@home.net> wrote:

> On EBAY there is an 11 7/80 (currently 6 cents). The guy has no where to
> put it and hopes someone can pick it up. It's located in Greencastle IN

> Anyone?

A little too much heavy metal for me.

Then Douglas Quebbeman <dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com> wrote:

> This is a very large system, right? 72-inch cabinets, 220v 3-phase juice,
> etc? I ask because it's relatively close. 

Define 'relatively close'.

And "Clint Wolff (VAX collector)" <vaxman@uswest.net> chimed in:

> No! Don't do it! :)

> I'm hoping to win this one... I may have to sell some of my
> junk to make room for it, but sacrifices must be made...

Hey Clint, when you drive over to pick it up, stop by and pick me
up.  I live just off I70 about 40 minutes from there.  I'll either help 
you load it or remind you how nuts we all are.  Then on the way back
we can stop by my place and 'balance' the load with some other VAX stuff.
God knows we could all use some 'balance', ey?

Mike

From Mzthompson at aol.com  Thu Oct 19 10:54:38 2000
From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: MMJ Info
Message-ID: <38.cd0fef6.2720733e@aol.com>

Info on the MMJ connector found on various DEC terminals & computers.
--------------- --------------- --------------- --------------- 
---------------
DEC uses an MMJ (Modified Modular Jack) connector on its equipment for serial 
data communications.  DEC calls the mating plug on the cable an MMP
(Modified Modular Plug), only the term is not used as often and most of the
time is just simply referred to as MMJ.  It is like a modular telephone 
connector, only the key on the connector is offset, not in the center like 
a standard telco connector.

Looking at the back of a VT320 for example the MMJ looks something like this.

   --------------------
   | *  *  *  *  *  * |
   --------------    --
                |____|

     1  2  3  4  5  6    are the pinout numbers

--------------- --------------- --------------- --------------- 
---------------
The signals are:

#  I/0  Desc
1   >   DTR  Data Terminal Ready
2   >   TXD  Transmit Data
3   -   TXD- (ie Gnd)
4   -   RXD- (ie Gnd)
5   <   RXD  Receive Data
6   <   DSR  Data Set Ready

> = terminal or computer output signal
< = terminal or computer input signal

--------------- --------------- --------------- --------------- 
---------------
DEC's part number for the cable is BC16E-xx, with the xx being
the length.  The cable is made so that the connector on one end is 
mounted 'right side up' and the other end 'upside down'.  In other 
words, the key tabs on the connector are on opposite sides of the 
flat cable.

           //
           ----                                       ----
           |  |---------------------------------------|  |
           ----                                       ----
                                                        //

That is effect causes the signal lines to cross-connect or as I like
to say 'turn over' from one end to the other.

            MMJ port on DEC                            MMJ port on DEC
            VT320 terminal                     computer or DECserver

         DTR 1 --->-------------->----------------->--- 6 DSR
         TXD 2 --->-------------->----------------->--- 5 RXD
             3 ---------------------------------------- 4
             4 ---------------------------------------- 3
         RXD 5 ---<--------------<-----------------<--- 2 TXD
         DSR 6 ---<--------------<-----------------<--- 1 DTR

--------------- --------------- --------------- --------------- 
---------------
I had a DEC MMP cable that someone cut one end off so I wired it to a female
9-pin D connector to use with a PC 9-pin serial port.  Wired as follows:

MMJ     DE9
 1       6
 2       2
 3       5
 4       5
 5       3
 6       4

This was to use a PC as the console on a DECsystem 5500 and/or one of the
ports on a DECstation 3100.  I actually did not connect DE9-6 to MMJ-1.
It worked fine without it.  I later made a breakout box with two 9 pin
D connectors and an MMJ socket along with the means to disconnect and
rewire as needed.  I found that it works fine without DE9-4 being wired
to MMJ-6.  In other words, using only the two data lines and ground.
Your mileage may vary, depending on how things are setup.

--------------- --------------- --------------- --------------- 
---------------
DEC makes several adapters to adapt the MMJ to 9/25-pin D connectors.

The H8571-A and H8575-A are MMJ to DB25 (female) and are wired as follows:

MMJ     DB25
 1       20
 2        2
 3        7
 4        7
 5        3
 6        6 & 8

Also pins 4 & 5 of the DB25 are tied together

I have used the above using a standard DEC BC16E cable to connect to 
a PC 25-pin serial port to use the PC as a terminal.

---------------
The H8571-C and H8571-F are MMJ to DB25 (male) and are wired as follows:

MMJ     DB25
 1        6
 2        3
 3        7
 4        7
 5        2
 6       20

---------------
The H8571-B an MMJ to DE9 (female) and is supposedly wired as follows:

MMJ      DE9
 1        5
 2        2
 3        7
 4        7
 5        3
 6        6 & maybe 8 (depending on which DEC manual you read)

I have never seen one, so have not actually checked how it is wired.
It should be noted that this is not wired correctly for PC 9-pin
serial ports, besides the gender of the 9-pin connector is wrong.
DEC says that this is used for connecting to 9-pin printer ports.

--------------- --------------- --------------- --------------- 
---------------
And here is a summary on how the various signal lines match up to
each other on the different connectors.

Term  Term  MMJ                        MMJ port on DEC
DB25   DE9                             computer or Decserver

 20     4    1 --->-------------->----------------->--- 6
  2     3    2 --->-------------->----------------->--- 5
  7     5    3 ---------------------------------------- 4
  7     5    4 ---------------------------------------- 3
  3     2    5 ---<--------------<-----------------<--- 2
  6     6    6 ---<--------------<-----------------<--- 1

--------------- --------------- --------------- --------------- 
---------------

From Mzthompson at aol.com  Thu Oct 19 10:54:39 2000
From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: SCSI-based floppy drives (3.5 or 5.25)
Message-ID: <65.b2a96aa.2720733f@aol.com>

pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) wrote:

> DEC made an adaptor for RX23 (3.5") drives, which I
> know works wth generic 3.5" floppies (I've got one somewhere)

Roger Ivie <rivie@teraglobal.com> wrote:

> The DEC adapter also works with 5.25" high density drives.

The DEC SCSI adapter is p/n 54-19288-01, and it is used with a mounting 
bracket p/n 74-39094-01.  This mounting bracket provides a place to mount 
the SCSI adapter circuit board as well as the RX23.  The RX23 is connected 
to the adapter with cable p/n 17-02221-02.

Mike

From Mzthompson at aol.com  Thu Oct 19 10:54:45 2000
From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:04 2005
Subject: NeXT question
Message-ID: <8f.1ff9874.27207345@aol.com>

I need to test a few NeXT monitors, and I assume that I can not hot swap
the monitors, what with the Power button turning on the monitor and the
kb and mouse going through the monitor.

Am I thinking correctly here?

I was thinking about building a breakout box for the monitor, sort of
a 'Y' cable thing with only the video going to the second monitor.

Of course the first thing I need is three 19 pin D connectors.  The
connectors are not listed in catalogs, DigiKey, Jameo, Altex, etc.
Were these connectors custom made and only used in the NeXT?  Anybody ever
seen 19 pin used elsewhere or have any idea where I might find some?

I had originally thought I would just wait until the testing turned up
three bad monitors and then use the connectors out of those.  I then
decided to build the breakout box before I get started.  Sort of a
Catch 22, I need to find three bad monitors to build a breakout box
to test the monitors.

Mike

From Mzthompson at aol.com  Thu Oct 19 10:54:32 2000
From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: Vax Station 3100
Message-ID: <51.2434ffd.27207338@aol.com>

Yesterday, in response to Neil Cherry's post on his DEC machine I wrote:

> Just behind the memory is the video frame buffer.  It is either
> a VFB02 mono, or a VFB02 color (p/n 54-19469-01).

Correction: the mono video frame buffer is a VFB01

Later Neil Cherry <ncherry@home.net> wrote:

> According to message I found during a web search, I may have purchased a
> lemon. It states that the machine won't boot without a keyboard and mouse.
> Well I don't have any. I'll have to hunt them down and then load *BSD.

To which Mike Ford <mikeford@socal.rr.com> wrote:

> No idea on mice, but I still have some LK201 and LK401 DEC keyboards.

Hey Neil, given your 'lemon', some water & sugar: Lemonade!

I have also got some spare LK201's.  Also buried deep somewhere is
a couple unused hockey puck mice still in the original box, and they
lastest haul included a bag of hockey pucks as well.

Also adding his two bits was "Sean Caron" <sean@techcare.com> and he wrote:

> You may have read about the insidious mouse port dependency on these
> machines :)

> These systems must have either a mouse or a "mouse port terminator"
> installed on them to boot NetBSD (and others, perhaps) from the graphics 
console. I think
> more information on them can be found on the NetBSD/pmax Web site, or you 
could
> also probably look it up by typing something like "DECstation 3100 mouse
> terminator" into your favorite search engine.

Here's the info:

: How can I run a DECstation without the display?
: (From the Ultrix FAQ found at ftp.digital.com)

: To turn a DECstation 2100/3100 into a DECsystem 2100/3100 you need to:

: 1.  Remove the Graphics board, keyboard and mouse.
: 2.  Put a mouse loopback connector in the hole for the mouse plug.
:     The loopback connector part number is: 12-25628-01

: To make your own:

: Short Transmit data to Receive Data, pins 2->4 as shown in the diagram.
: (view looking at the plug).

:       5 6 7
:       o o o
:    4 o === o 1
:        o o 
:        3 2


> I'm not sure if its a problem if you boot the system off a serial console
> (which, incidentially, you can do; just hook up a terminal to the port with
> the printer icon next to it and flip the little DIP switch S3 on the back
> of the system - then you don't even need a mouse, keyboard, or monitor).

Sean, here I will have to say: Huh?  There is no DIP switch on the back of
a DECstation 3100's.  Is this something on the back of a VAXstation 3100?
If so, I thought we decided this was a DECstation 3100.

> Unfortunately, unless you have a MMJ terminal (VT3/400 series) you'll need
> to either buy or build a converter to break out MMJ to something more
> useful. The only problem is that (out here, at least), MMJ plugs are just
> about impossible to find and the converters (MMJ->DB25) cost $25 from DEC.
> Ouch!

Ouch is right, never knew DEC wanted that much.  Maybe I need to take
my shoe box full of 'em to my safe deposit box. ;-))

And then Neil Cherry wrote:

> 2 ways around that problem, minor surgery (exacto blade) or major surgery
> (remove MMJ and solder in appropriate 6 pin RJ outlet). I think I'll
> start with the exacto first. Actually there is a 3rd method I'll try first
> and that is the exacto the RJ11 plug so it no longer has the tab on it.

Neil, if you want to use a PC as a terminal and need one, I have a couple
spare MMJ cables.  Or in case you want to 'roll your own' I will post a
'fact file' on MMJ.  I have posted it here in the past, but probably not
a bad idea to post again.

Mike

From Mzthompson at aol.com  Thu Oct 19 10:54:43 2000
From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: Does anyone collect old software?
Message-ID: <7d.bcaaf2c.27207343@aol.com>

 Zane <healyzh@aracnet.com> wrote:

>> What's "direct access?"

> Basically you start with a selection of items, and when you select one it
> allows you to either run an app or go to another menu (not sure how deep you
> can go on menus).  Has at least some sort of password protect on stuff, as I
> recall though not terribly secure.

The phrase 'not terribly secure' is being nice.  Given a password of

1234

whose bits are

01000001 01000010 01000011 01000100

The password was stored in a config file with the characters of the
password reversed

4321

and IIRC, the bits were reversed also.

00100010 11000010 01000010 10000010

I worked in a TV Studio years ago and the production manager was a butthead.

When he wasn't around I would go to the computer in the main office and
pop in a floppy and reboot.  The autoexec ran a program I wrote which 
decoded the passwords and wrote them to a file on the floppy and then 
rebooted the machine bringing it right back into Direct Access.  It was 
months before he caught on.

Mike

From foo at siconic.com  Thu Oct 19 09:53:29 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: FS:  HP 9845B with extras   Attn: Canuks!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001019095441.3b1f192e@mailhost.intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010190752370.16097-100000@siconic.com>

On Thu, 19 Oct 2000, Joe wrote:

>   Who says there's never any good computer stuff available in Canada?
> There's a LOADED HP-9845B for sale on E-bay. The HP_9845 was HP's top of
> the line desktop calculator and it's a hell of a machine!  It's located in
> Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.
> 
>   "http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=472936502"

Yeah, but with a minimum bid of $169.

This is one of the few machines I regret passing up a long time ago (the
guy wanted way too much though).  They don't pop up very often.

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu  Thu Oct 19 10:59:38 2000
From: korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: Vax 11 -7/80 (plus equipment)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0010182245120.49387-100000@shell-1.enteract.com>
 from "Richard W. Schauer" at "Oct 18, 2000 10:50:52 pm"
Message-ID: <200010191559.IAA17276@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu>

> Speaking of 11/780's, how would the peanut gallery recommend moving one
> that's located down a flight of stairs?  When it was brought in 15 years
> ago they hired a moving company, who got it down in an hour using some
> equipment for $200.  I called several moving companies who insist the only
> way to bring it up is with 6-8 men who basically carry it up, at a cost of
> $800-1000.  I am considering diving deeply into Vaxology by taking it
> apart, carrying it upstairs, and putting it back together.

There's always a major disconnect between delivery companies and moving
companies, and I haven't been able to find a solution.  Delivery companies
know the equipment they are moving, moving companies don't have a clue,
and usually decide brute force is the most cost effective method (for them, 
not you).  

I recently moved a large piece, which had been delivered by two people
who hauled it up exterior stairwell on a furniture dolly with 10 inch wheels.
When moving time came, the movers said it wouldn't fit down the exterior
stairwell.  I went out and looked.  They had it on a dolly with 6 inch
wheels.  If they tilted it enough for the it to fit, the wheels 
would lose contact with the stairs.  I pointed out the problem.  They 
said they would come back the next day.  Rather than bringing an appropriate
dolly, they came back with 8 guys and they muscled it down the (smaller)
interior stairwell and caused significant cosmetic damage.  It was a
fixed price deal, so the extra time didn't cost me anything, but I was
pretty P.O.ed about the damage, which we eventually reached a settlement
on.

Eric

From cem14 at cornell.edu  Thu Oct 19 10:59:18 2000
From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: Mac II question
References: <3.0.1.16.20001019110353.3b1fd27c@mailhost.intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <39EF1A56.A239C0C7@cornell.edu>

Hi Joe;

Joe wrote:
>    That NI GP-IB card may not be GP-IB!  I have a NI NuBus card with what
> looks like a HP_IB connector but I couldn't find it on NI's site so I
> E-mailed them and asked about it. It turns out that it isn't GP-IB but some
> kind of data aquision card.  I don't remember the model number but it's
> around here somewhere.

I'd be surprised if this is not a gpib card; it even has the TNT4882-AQ
chip by National Instruments.  You can see a picture at

http://huey.ee.cornell.edu/nitnt.jpg

and, while we're at this, take a look at the 68040 accelerator:

http://huey.ee.cornell.edu/daystar68040.jpg

and some of the other NuBus cards that I have:

http://huey.ee.cornell.edu/dt2255.jpg
http://huey.ee.cornell.edu/lab-nb.jpg
http://huey.ee.cornell.edu/nubus_dsp.jpg

-- 
Carlos Murillo-Sanchez    email:  cem14@cornell.edu  
428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department
Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853

From rivie at teraglobal.com  Thu Oct 19 11:44:25 2000
From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: SCSI-based floppy drives (3.5 or 5.25)
In-Reply-To: <65.b2a96aa.2720733f@aol.com>
References: <65.b2a96aa.2720733f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <v04210100b614d3be1175@[10.2.0.84]>

>The DEC SCSI adapter is p/n 54-19288-01, and it is used with a mounting
>bracket p/n 74-39094-01.  This mounting bracket provides a place to mount
>the SCSI adapter circuit board as well as the RX23.  The RX23 is connected
>to the adapter with cable p/n 17-02221-02.

The SCSI adapter determines the driver type based on the
drive select number to which the drive responds. I don't
recall which drive select maps to which drive, but if
it comes up wrong try a different drive select.

Depending on the version of the hardware you have, the
adapter may deal with RX23 (3.5" 1.44MB), RX33 (5.25"
1.2MB), and RX26 (3.5" 2.88MB) drives. It will adjust
the model number it reports to the host depending on the
drive attached and it determines which drive is attached
by the drive select to which the drive responds.

Another variation between models is whether or not the
firmware hides the RX50 software interleave used by
PDP-11 and VAX systems (DECmates and Rainbows used a
different software interleave). IIRC, the firmware
version with knows about the RX50 software interleave
identifies itself as 5.7. For the life of me, I don't
recall whether the RX50 software interleave is tied to
the drive type or whether it assumes the floppy is an
RX50 if it discovers that it's 10 sectors per track,
80 tracks, 250KHz data rate (the controller is pretty
flexible and tries really hard to adjust itself to
the format of the diskette inserted, although it does
assume the whole world uses 512 byte sectors).

--
Roger Ivie
rivie@teraglobal.com
Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation

From harrison at timharrison.com  Thu Oct 19 11:50:59 2000
From: harrison at timharrison.com (Tim Harrison)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: Enough already
References: <200010191558.e9JFwXk09106@bg-tc-ppp343.monmouth.com>
Message-ID: <39EF2673.E2B412F6@timharrison.com>

Bill Pechter wrote:

> Actually, FreeBSD blows both of them off the map...

Not if you're running Oracle, it doesn't. :)  SuSE and Oracle is a great
combination.

> Yup.  I think things got too "feature-d" too quickly with little thought
> to maintenance or support.

Well, they never did anything but pack more stuff into Communicator. 
Mozilla had the ability to be good, but they're packing more and more
stuff into it nowadays.  Urgh.  Can't win.
 
> It's now FreeBSD and Mandrake or Caldera (one Corel box here) for me.

Ewwww... Corel. :)

For me, SuSE and Slackware.  Works nicely for what I do.

-- 


Tim Harrison
Network Engineer
harrison@timharrison.com
http://www.networklevel.com/

From enrico.badella at softstar.it  Thu Oct 19 11:54:54 2000
From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: decommissioned 11/70
References: <200010191547.e9JFlDm09056@bg-tc-ppp343.monmouth.com>
Message-ID: <39EF275E.D7AC8B95@softstar.it>


Bill Pechter wrote:
> 
> >
> > Enrico Badella wrote:
> >
> > At a customer's site they have 3 780 waiting for their last trip; last
> > week they just decommissioned 3 11/70 on of which in a DEC DATASYSTEM 720
> > cabinet (don't remember the exact number). Wish I had more room; maybe
> > a should junk my 11/40 ;-)
> 
> I seem to remember either 520 or 570 on the datasystem...

Its probably a 570. I'll try to see if I can get permission to enter
the glass room with a camera and take some photos. It is behind he other
2 11/70 with the usual red/purple switch console. In that room there are
lots of interesting things like RM03, at least 10, several VAX 4000
and VAX ft 3000 waiting to be junked.

e.

========================================================================
Enrico Badella                       email:   enrico.badella@softstar.it
Soft*Star srl                                 eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it
InterNetworking Specialists          tel:     +39-011-746092            
Via Camburzano 9                     fax:     +39-011-746487
10143 Torino, Italy

  Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software,
  manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals
==========================================================================

From ncherry at home.net  Thu Oct 19 11:43:21 2000
From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: Enough already! (was: Re: MS Laugh-In)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010190732450.16097-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <39EF24A9.3E0AFC83@home.net>

Sellam Ismail wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 19 Oct 2000, Tim Harrison wrote:
> 
> > He's approaching it in his way.  If he patches the hell out of his box,
> > that's fine.  I do it.  And guess what?  My box is pretty damned
> > stable.  All of my machines are.  I keep an eye out for security issues,
> > look for them myself, and patching is one way.  It's a necessity if
> > you're on the net, as well.  Either you keep up, or you get rooted, and
> > you're reinstalling every two days.
> 
> My box has been running for over a year now and I have never been
> "rooted".  I can't relate to your argument, Chicken Little.

Hmm, I'm not sure about the rooted part but I have noticed that I get
'probed' (South Park Humor, maybe ;-) almost every day. I have a Firewall
router, IP Chains and TCPD running. I'm on a cable modem 7x24. The reason
for my paranoia was an incident where a SPAM used my machine to bounce
mail (this was about 10 years ago). I was then on a lousy dialup and
noticed the modem lights on constantly when I wasn't doing anything. I
caught it within minutes but decided from then on not to embarass my-
self ever again like that. I know networks, I'm not so sure about
security.

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Thu Oct 19 12:02:21 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: Vax 11 -7/80 (plus equipment)
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB227@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>

> Neil Cherry <ncherry@home.net> wrote:
> 
> > On EBAY there is an 11 7/80 (currently 6 cents). The guy has no where to
> > put it and hopes someone can pick it up. It's located in Greencastle IN
> 
> > Anyone?
> 
> A little too much heavy metal for me.
> 
> Then Douglas Quebbeman <dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com> wrote:
> 
> > This is a very large system, right? 72-inch cabinets, 220v 3-phase
juice,
> > etc? I ask because it's relatively close. 
> 
> Define 'relatively close'.

Well, Indy is a straight shot from here up I-65; Greencastle is a bit
to the west of Indy. Going up Indiana 60 to Indiana 37, then to
Bloomington, then up US 231 to Greencastle, just a nice day trip.

But Cliff wants it, so Cliff gets it (hopefully)...
 
> And "Clint Wolff (VAX collector)" <vaxman@uswest.net> chimed in:
> 
> > No! Don't do it! :)
> 
> > I'm hoping to win this one... I may have to sell some of my
> > junk to make room for it, but sacrifices must be made...
> 
> Hey Clint, when you drive over to pick it up, stop by and pick me
> up.  I live just off I70 about 40 minutes from there.  I'll either help 
> you load it or remind you how nuts we all are.  Then on the way back
> we can stop by my place and 'balance' the load with some other VAX stuff.
> God knows we could all use some 'balance', ey?

Ah, another Hoosier.... ok, I live in Clarksville, down here in
Kentuckiana. But I really don't want any more big iron anyway
until I can get my Prime 2455 running again. I was midway through
a project of transferring files from magtape to a PC when the PSU
died. Additionally, I'm seriously thinking of running it as a
space heater.

regards,
-dq


From cem14 at cornell.edu  Thu Oct 19 12:15:44 2000
From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: Mac II question
References: <39EF04C5.7C1EFB8@cornell.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20001019103933.00ba1e00@192.168.210.18>
Message-ID: <39EF2C40.637F6769@cornell.edu>

Bill Layer wrote:
> > >Does anybody know more about this accelerator?
> 
> Look up your MacII on http://www.lowendmac.com and there is (almost always)
> a section with details on the various accelerator options for the model in
> question.
> 
> Lowendmac must be the best resource of it's type I have ever encountered.
> They have a wealth of links as well. It's always my first place to turn.

Thanks a lot, Bill!  There, I immediately found a lot of info about
this generation of Macs; now I know that this particular accelerator
will fit in the cache slot for a IIci without any adapter, and,
I happen to have a IIci as well :-) .  My plan now is to
beef up the IIci with the accelerator, more memory, a video
card and I'll have a neat, small 68K-based Mac II to play with.
I will be limiting the mac side of my collection to a Classic II,
an SE/30, the accelerated IIci and an 8100.

-- 
Carlos Murillo-Sanchez    email:  cem14@cornell.edu  
428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department
Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853

From vcf at siconic.com  Thu Oct 19 11:21:40 2000
From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: Boxed Apple //c available in Vermont
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010190920130.16315-100000@siconic.com>


There is a guy named Charles in Vermont (the Junk Giant) who has a boxed
Apple //c, boxed Apple //c monitor (the little cute one with the stand)
and a boxed Imagewriter printer.

He wants to sell it.  I told him $60 + shipping would be a fair ballpark
figure for the lot.

Contact him directly at <junkgiant@juno.com>.  He's a nice guy.

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From vaxman at uswest.net  Thu Oct 19 12:40:58 2000
From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: Vax 11 -7/80 (plus equipment)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0010182245120.49387-100000@shell-1.enteract.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1001019113636.1916B-100000@oldy.crwolff.com>


Well Richard, my plan is to screw a LARGE eyebolt into the top of a
floor joist in line with my stairs, lay down some 2x12 planks as a
ramp, and use a come-along (ratcheting cable hoist thingy) to gently
lower my big computers down the stairs... Hopefully, the 780 will be
one of them.

I haven't determined yet if the main floor in my house will support
an 1100 lbs system, but I'm hopefull :)

clint


On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Richard W. Schauer wrote:

> Speaking of 11/780's, how would the peanut gallery recommend moving one
> that's located down a flight of stairs?  When it was brought in 15 years
> ago they hired a moving company, who got it down in an hour using some
> equipment for $200.  I called several moving companies who insist the only
> way to bring it up is with 6-8 men who basically carry it up, at a cost of
> $800-1000.  I am considering diving deeply into Vaxology by taking it
> apart, carrying it upstairs, and putting it back together.
> 
> Richard Schauer
> rws@enteract.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org  Thu Oct 19 13:04:42 2000
From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: Enough already
In-Reply-To: <39EF2673.E2B412F6@timharrison.com> from Tim Harrison at "Oct 19,
 2000 12:50:59 pm"
Message-ID: <200010191804.e9JI4hX09530@bg-tc-ppp343.monmouth.com>

> Bill Pechter wrote:
> 
> > Actually, FreeBSD blows both of them off the map...
> 
> Not if you're running Oracle, it doesn't. :)  SuSE and Oracle is a great
> combination.

Actually, you should talk to the folks who did Oracle work for the 
Network Computer stuff... They had asynch io working with Oracle 7, I
believe.
> 
> Ewwww... Corel. :)

It's a bit rough in spots compared with Caldera -- but the interface
shows promise... My problem is with WordPerfect Office 2000
being dependant on their Wine. Keeps it from running on FreeBSD's 
Linux layer.  WP8 runs great on FreeBSD as does FrameMaker.

> 
> For me, SuSE and Slackware.  Works nicely for what I do.
> 
I've got to try SuSE.  I've done Slackware though (when I dropped SLS
a long time ago...) Got to love an installation that can still come off
floppy disks......

Bill
> -- 
> 
> 
> Tim Harrison
> Network Engineer
> harrison@timharrison.com
> http://www.networklevel.com/
> 
> 

-- 
bpechter@monmouth.com    | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10  
                         | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2
                         | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour 

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Thu Oct 19 12:56:41 2000
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: BA23 w/RA70
In-Reply-To: <005b01c039e2$b9b45810$a652e780@L166>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010191056110.6891-100000@war.deltasoft.com>

Then the PDP-11/73 I've got is 22 bit?  (I *think* it's a 73)

g.


On Thu, 19 Oct 2000, Daniel T. Burrows wrote:

> The BA123 is 22 bit.  I use one for a test bed and always keep a spare as I
> run it with the covers off and have fried a few power supplies over the
> years.  The fans just don't do the job with all the covers off.:(.  The
> BA123 is much nicer on the hands to swap boards than a BA23.
> Dan
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gene Buckle <geneb@deltasoft.com>
> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
> Date: Thursday, October 19, 2000 11:03 AM
> Subject: Re: BA23 w/RA70
> 
> 
> > >Be very careful with that chassis!  If it was really a MicroPDP, it will
> > >have an 18 bit qbus backplane in it.  It will _destroy_ 22 bit qbus
> boards
> > >since there are power pins on the 18 bit bus that mate to data pins on
> the
> > >22 bit bus.
> > >
> > >Then again, my memory may be completely broken and I've got it all wrong.
> > :)
> > >
> > >g.
> >
> > I think you are remembering the BA11S and others.  All the BA23's I have
> had
> > and seen have all had 22 bit backplanes.  ( I have at least 15 BA23's at
> the
> > moment.)
> 
> I think I was thinking of the BA123 I've got that IS a uPDP-11.  (full of
> boards too *sigh*)
> 
> g.
> 
> 
> 


From sean at techcare.com  Thu Oct 19 13:39:50 2000
From: sean at techcare.com (Sean Caron)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: Vax Station 3100
References: <51.2434ffd.27207338@aol.com>
Message-ID: <102e01c039fb$f72203f0$0c00000a@techcare.com>


----- Original Message -----
From: <Mzthompson@aol.com>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Cc: <ncherry@home.net>
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2000 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: Vax Station 3100


> Yesterday, in response to Neil Cherry's post on his DEC machine I wrote:
>
> > Just behind the memory is the video frame buffer.  It is either
> > a VFB02 mono, or a VFB02 color (p/n 54-19469-01).
>
> Correction: the mono video frame buffer is a VFB01
>
> Later Neil Cherry <ncherry@home.net> wrote:
>
> > According to message I found during a web search, I may have purchased a
> > lemon. It states that the machine won't boot without a keyboard and
mouse.
> > Well I don't have any. I'll have to hunt them down and then load *BSD.
>
> To which Mike Ford <mikeford@socal.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > No idea on mice, but I still have some LK201 and LK401 DEC keyboards.
>
> Hey Neil, given your 'lemon', some water & sugar: Lemonade!
>
> I have also got some spare LK201's.  Also buried deep somewhere is
> a couple unused hockey puck mice still in the original box, and they
> lastest haul included a bag of hockey pucks as well.
>
> Also adding his two bits was "Sean Caron" <sean@techcare.com> and he
wrote:
>
> > You may have read about the insidious mouse port dependency on these
> > machines :)
>
> > These systems must have either a mouse or a "mouse port terminator"
> > installed on them to boot NetBSD (and others, perhaps) from the graphics
> console. I think
> > more information on them can be found on the NetBSD/pmax Web site, or
you
> could
> > also probably look it up by typing something like "DECstation 3100 mouse
> > terminator" into your favorite search engine.
>
> Here's the info:
>
> : How can I run a DECstation without the display?
> : (From the Ultrix FAQ found at ftp.digital.com)
>
> : To turn a DECstation 2100/3100 into a DECsystem 2100/3100 you need to:
>
> : 1.  Remove the Graphics board, keyboard and mouse.
> : 2.  Put a mouse loopback connector in the hole for the mouse plug.
> :     The loopback connector part number is: 12-25628-01
>
> : To make your own:
>
> : Short Transmit data to Receive Data, pins 2->4 as shown in the diagram.
> : (view looking at the plug).
>
> :       5 6 7
> :       o o o
> :    4 o === o 1
> :        o o
> :        3 2
>
>
> > I'm not sure if its a problem if you boot the system off a serial
console
> > (which, incidentially, you can do; just hook up a terminal to the port
with
> > the printer icon next to it and flip the little DIP switch S3 on the
back
> > of the system - then you don't even need a mouse, keyboard, or monitor).
>
> Sean, here I will have to say: Huh?  There is no DIP switch on the back of
> a DECstation 3100's.  Is this something on the back of a VAXstation 3100?
> If so, I thought we decided this was a DECstation 3100.
>
> > Unfortunately, unless you have a MMJ terminal (VT3/400 series) you'll
need
> > to either buy or build a converter to break out MMJ to something more
> > useful. The only problem is that (out here, at least), MMJ plugs are
just
> > about impossible to find and the converters (MMJ->DB25) cost $25 from
DEC.
> > Ouch!
>
> Ouch is right, never knew DEC wanted that much.  Maybe I need to take
> my shoe box full of 'em to my safe deposit box. ;-))
>
> And then Neil Cherry wrote:
>
> > 2 ways around that problem, minor surgery (exacto blade) or major
surgery
> > (remove MMJ and solder in appropriate 6 pin RJ outlet). I think I'll
> > start with the exacto first. Actually there is a 3rd method I'll try
first
> > and that is the exacto the RJ11 plug so it no longer has the tab on it.
>
> Neil, if you want to use a PC as a terminal and need one, I have a couple
> spare MMJ cables.  Or in case you want to 'roll your own' I will post a
> 'fact file' on MMJ.  I have posted it here in the past, but probably not
> a bad idea to post again.
>
> Mike
>

Sorry; you caught me confusing the DECstation 3100 with the VAXstation 3100
in that respect :)

--Sean Caron (root@diablonet.net) | http://www.diablonet.net


From foo at siconic.com  Thu Oct 19 12:39:13 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: OT: Re: Enough already! (was: Re: MS Laugh-In)
In-Reply-To: <39EF24A9.3E0AFC83@home.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010191030550.16420-100000@siconic.com>

On Thu, 19 Oct 2000, Neil Cherry wrote:

> > My box has been running for over a year now and I have never been
> > "rooted".  I can't relate to your argument, Chicken Little.
> 
> Hmm, I'm not sure about the rooted part but I have noticed that I get
> 'probed' (South Park Humor, maybe ;-) almost every day. I have a Firewall

Yeah, I noticed that when my server first went online.  For the first
couple days I was annoyed, and would send out e-mails telling these little
losers to back off or I would smite them with my mightiness.  After a
while I realized it was futile and just ignore them.  My system is secure.
I have no worries.

> router, IP Chains and TCPD running. I'm on a cable modem 7x24. The reason

Ditto.

The reason I'm such a fan of RedHat is because the basic 6.2 installation
is reasonably secure and is configured in a manner that doesn't let you
get into trouble.  The only thing it requires you to configure yourself is
the IP Chains.  I've tried SuSE and Debian.  In my experience, SuSE is
good, but too Euro-centric, and Debian is crummy.  I stick with RedHat
because that's where all the money is, and therefore where the development
is being done.

RH 7.0 is out now.  I'm hoping it will be a major improvement over 6.2.

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From sean at techcare.com  Thu Oct 19 13:44:48 2000
From: sean at techcare.com (Sean Caron)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: BA23 w/RA70
References: <39EE48DA.73175AD@arrl.net>
Message-ID: <105401c039fc$a84fd580$0c00000a@techcare.com>


----- Original Message -----
From: "no" <oliv555@arrl.net>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 9:05 PM
Subject: BA23 w/RA70


> Well I've got this empty BA23 and enough boards to put
> together a MVIII/kda50. What I don't have is the RA control
> panel.
>
> My question is, can the RA70 be set up to run without it?
> If so, what jumper/sw settings?
>
> The box may be an earlier model, badged microPDP11, so
> I have to wonder if the VAX, 2 mem bds, kda50, RA70,
> RQDX3 (for the RX33) and a DELQA would be too much for
> the P/S.
>
> nick o
>

Actually, this is a long-held question of mine too :) I've got a MicroVAX
III
in my basement in a BA123 with four RA72 SDI drives and a KDA50
controller. Unfortunately, I didn't get any cables for connecting the card
to
the drive when I purchased the card, and I really don't know much at all
about the SDI disk interface in the first place.

Just out of curiousity, does anyone out there have a pointer to a site that
has
a good file explaining SDI, or would anyone be willing to explain the
basics?
Do I need anything else besides the card and the drive (like this RA-series
control panel mentioned in the previous message)? How are the drives
cabled to the card? Is the cabling something relatively straightforward that
I could put together myself?

I think it would be cool to get the system running with them; they've been
just kind of sitting in the basement as a "to-do" project someday.

Thanks,

--Sean Caron (root@diabloent.net) | http://www.diablonet.net


From richard at idcomm.com  Thu Oct 19 13:51:18 2000
From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: MS Laugh-In
References: <l03102802b6131a9cab46@[192.168.1.4]> <l03102807b6139b46440e@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <001f01c039fd$92223b80$0500fea9@winbook>

I'm told that the principal difference between W98SE and ME is that you
can't install ME without first registering it.  I haven't tried it, so I
don't know whether that's really the case, but . . .

Dick

----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Ford <mikeford@socal.rr.com>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: MS Laugh-In


> >> >I take it the market doesn't yet trust W2000 and SP3 will be a while
yet.
> >> Most people have no desire to update their OS from W95 or W98, not
broken
> >> don't fix it attitude.
> >
> >"not broken"!??????!?????!????!????!????!?????!??
> >w95 or w98 is "not broken"???????????????????????
> >Consider, instead, the idea that some folk would not like to replace
> >broken with even more broken.
> >
> >
> >> Standing in line, and paying full price for beta
> >> software has lost its chic.
> >
> >W2000 is no longer Beta.
> >WinBlow Me is no longer Beta?
> >
> >
> >> Stability is currently more popular than
> >> features.
> >
> >Wouldst that 'twere so.
> >MICROS~1 sales have not fallen off enough to support the premise that the
> >public has learned to desire stability.
>
> W95 and W98 are both working fine for me. I have been paranoid enough to
> apply all the patches etc. (flash bios, etc.), and avoid any new MS
> products until the bug fixes come out. Working to me means, the programs I
> want to use will run, and right now they do.
>
> Anything prior to about the second service pack release I call Beta.
>
> MS can migrate ALL the new system vendors, so those OS sales are in the
> can, what I don't think is happening are the upgrades of W9x to these
> latest versions.
>
>
>


From richard at idcomm.com  Thu Oct 19 14:01:33 2000
From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: SCSI-based floppy drives (3.5 or 5.25)
References: <39EDB7F6.8040607@olf.com> <10010182218.ZM861@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <20001019025822.9777.qmail@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <008101c039ff$00044f20$0500fea9@winbook>

Are you sure about that?  I have a number of "SCSI-2" drives on which bus
parity is a jumperable option.  All the other SCSI-2 features remain active
if parity is disabled.

Dick

----- Original Message -----
From: Eric Smith <eric@brouhaha.com>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 8:58 PM
Subject: Re: SCSI-based floppy drives (3.5 or 5.25)


> pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) wrote:
> > BTW, SCSI-2 should work fine on a SCSI-1 system.  You just won't get
some
> > of the extra twiddly SCSI-2 features.
>
> Usually, but not always.  Some SCSI-2 devices and host adapters require
> bus parity, and some SCSI-1 devices and host adapters don't support
> parity at all.
>
>


From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Thu Oct 19 14:30:44 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: MS Laugh-In
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB22C@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>


> I'm told that the principal difference between W98SE and ME is that you
> can't install ME without first registering it.  I haven't tried it, so I
> don't know whether that's really the case, but . . .

They've supposedly added this now to Office 2000; if you skip the
registration,
it launches 50 times, then quits working.

And of course, if you complete the online registration, it "phones home".

Now, what if you have neither a modem nor other network connection?
I wonder if it allows the "print out form and mail in" registration.
If so, that's one way to skin a fat cat... (not that I'm suggesting
piracy, just suggesting not going along with the flow).

-dq

From b.layer at vikingelectronics.com  Thu Oct 19 14:30:59 2000
From: b.layer at vikingelectronics.com (Bill Layer)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: Mac II question
In-Reply-To: <39EF2C40.637F6769@cornell.edu>
References: <39EF04C5.7C1EFB8@cornell.edu>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20001019103933.00ba1e00@192.168.210.18>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001019142240.00ce03f0@192.168.210.18>

Hi Carlos,

>Thanks a lot, Bill!

Anytime :) Glad I could help..

>   My plan now is to
>beef up the IIci with the accelerator, more memory, a video
>card and I'll have a neat, small 68K-based Mac II to play with.
>I will be limiting the mac side of my collection to a Classic II,
>an SE/30, the accelerated IIci and an 8100.

Does the accelerator solve the memory addressing problems in the IIc 
series? These models have 2MB of RAM built-on , plus two 30-pin sockets 
which will take 4MB SIMMS. Problem is, even with two 4MB SIMMS installed, 
the machine will only recognize a total of 10MB of RAM, not the 12MB that 
is physically present.

If that 68030 accelerator card also comes bearing an 68882 FPU, the system 
can then be used to run NetBSD (one of the free UNIX-like operating 
systems). For that matter, it might also run the M68K linux, but on 10MB 
I'm not sure how these systems will perform. FWIW, the SE/30 will also run 
NetBSD, and that model can easily be expanded to 32 or 64MB of RAM.


Bill Layer
Sales Technician
<b.layer@vikingelectronics.com>

+----------------------------------+
      Viking Electronics, Inc.
        1531 Industrial St.
     Hudson, WI. 54016 - U.S.A
       715.386.8861 ext. 210
  <http://www.vikingelectronics.com>
+----------------------------------+

"Telecom Solutions for the 21st Century"

  


From spc at conman.org  Thu Oct 19 14:35:08 2000
From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: OT: Re: Enough already! (was: Re: MS Laugh-In)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010191030550.16420-100000@siconic.com> from "Sellam Ismail" at Oct 19, 2000 10:39:13 AM
Message-ID: <200010191935.PAA26370@conman.org>

It was thus said that the Great Sellam Ismail once stated:
> 
> RH 7.0 is out now.  I'm hoping it will be a major improvement over 6.2.

  You haven't been following the news, have you?  7.0 is *the worst*
distribution of RedHat so far---it's so buggy RedHat didn't have it on hand
for the recent Linux Convention in Atlanta.

  I'd wait until 7.2.

  In other news, I've never had trouble with Linux crashing (unless it was
hardware related), and I've had relatively few problems with Windows (some,
but only after Microsoft Office was installed but that's another story). 
But I only run stable kernels like 1.2.13 (formerly) and 2.0.36 (current
kernel).  I haven't used 2.2 or 2.4 so I don't know how good they are, but
so far, 2.0 is good enough for what I use it for.

  To put this somewhat on target, I'm running 2.0.36 on 10 year old hardware
(mostly 486s) and it runs fine.

  -spc (Although to be fair, I have seen problems in 2.0.36 that required
	reboots to reset certain sub-sections but a friend and I were able
	to fix it since we had the source code)


From cem14 at cornell.edu  Thu Oct 19 14:50:27 2000
From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: MS Laugh-In
References: <l03102802b6131a9cab46@[192.168.1.4]> <l03102807b6139b46440e@[192.168.1.4]> <001f01c039fd$92223b80$0500fea9@winbook>
Message-ID: <39EF5083.2654E364@cornell.edu>

Richard Erlacher wrote:
> 
> I'm told that the principal difference between W98SE and ME is that you
> can't install ME without first registering it.  I haven't tried it, so I
> don't know whether that's really the case, but . . .
> 
> Dick

I don't doubt it.  When you install Office 2000 Pro, it asks you
to connect to microsoft via modem (toll free) or internet in order
to register.  If you defer, then it tells you that you can
use the software 50 times before it will shutdown and you will
have to register in order for it to keep working.  I actually
opened and quit Word 50 times to see what happened.  It refused
to keep working.  So I registered, and it asked me whether I agreed
to provide information about my computer to MS so that
"they could offer me better technical support in the future".
Needless to say, I refused, but I wonder how much the managed to find
out about me in the process.

-- 
Carlos Murillo-Sanchez    email:  cem14@cornell.edu  
428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department
Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853

From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Thu Oct 19 15:08:30 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: Mac II question
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB230@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>


> >   My plan now is to
> >beef up the IIci with the accelerator, more memory, a video
> >card and I'll have a neat, small 68K-based Mac II to play with.
> >I will be limiting the mac side of my collection to a Classic II,
> >an SE/30, the accelerated IIci and an 8100.
> 
> Does the accelerator solve the memory addressing problems in the IIc 
> series? These models have 2MB of RAM built-on , plus two 30-pin sockets 
> which will take 4MB SIMMS. Problem is, even with two 4MB SIMMS installed, 
> the machine will only recognize a total of 10MB of RAM, not the 12MB that 
> is physically present.

According to AppleSpec '98, those specs belong to the Mac LC II, not
the IIc series (which is the IIcx and IIci). The IIcx and IIci have
no on-board RAM, but have eight 30-pin sockets that can take the
machines up to 128MB (but on the IIcx you need extra software to 
use anything larger than 32MB).

regards,
-dq
 

From eric at brouhaha.com  Thu Oct 19 15:17:12 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: MS Laugh-In
In-Reply-To: <39EF5083.2654E364@cornell.edu> (message from Carlos
	Murillo-Sanchez on Thu, 19 Oct 2000 15:50:27 -0400)
References: <l03102802b6131a9cab46@[192.168.1.4]> <l03102807b6139b46440e@[192.168.1.4]> <001f01c039fd$92223b80$0500fea9@winbook> <39EF5083.2654E364@cornell.edu>
Message-ID: <20001019201712.20049.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Carlos wrote:
> I don't doubt it.  When you install Office 2000 Pro, it asks you
> to connect to microsoft via modem (toll free) or internet in order
> to register.  If you defer, then it tells you that you can
> use the software 50 times before it will shutdown and you will
> have to register in order for it to keep working.

Someone will undoubtedly figure out how to hack that.  I had the same
thing on some OCR software.  I'm pissed off because the box didn't say
that I was *required* to register it.  I think this is a violation of
implied warranty of merchantability.  When I "buy" the product in a
retail box in a store, unless stated otherwise I expect to be able to
use the product on one computer in any way that I like.  The vendors all
try to disclaim implied warranties, but I'm not sure they can get away
with it.  (Well, in states that have passed the UCITA they can.)

Of course, now with our wonderful new Digital Millenium Copyright Act
here in the former "land of the free", it might actually be *illegal*
to reverse-engineer the registration counter, if the vendor can convince a
court that the registration counter is an "effective copyright protection
measure".  In a truly marvelous display of sophistry, the judge in the
2600 case ruled that even a completely ineffective copyright protection
system is in fact "effective" because the DMCA gives it force of law.

If you were to get the idea that I'm fed up with what the republicrats
in the US Congress (more aptly named the "Parliament of Whores" by
P.J. O'Rourke) are doing for^H^H^Hto us, you'd be absolutely right.  If
you want lower taxes and sane public policy, vote Libertarian.

OK, I'll get off my soapbox now.

Eric

From eric at brouhaha.com  Thu Oct 19 15:17:12 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: MS Laugh-In
In-Reply-To: <39EF5083.2654E364@cornell.edu> (message from Carlos
	Murillo-Sanchez on Thu, 19 Oct 2000 15:50:27 -0400)
References: <l03102802b6131a9cab46@[192.168.1.4]> <l03102807b6139b46440e@[192.168.1.4]> <001f01c039fd$92223b80$0500fea9@winbook> <39EF5083.2654E364@cornell.edu>
Message-ID: <20001019201712.20049.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Carlos wrote:
> I don't doubt it.  When you install Office 2000 Pro, it asks you
> to connect to microsoft via modem (toll free) or internet in order
> to register.  If you defer, then it tells you that you can
> use the software 50 times before it will shutdown and you will
> have to register in order for it to keep working.

Someone will undoubtedly figure out how to hack that.  I had the same
thing on some OCR software.  I'm pissed off because the box didn't say
that I was *required* to register it.  I think this is a violation of
implied warranty of merchantability.  When I "buy" the product in a
retail box in a store, unless stated otherwise I expect to be able to
use the product on one computer in any way that I like.  The vendors all
try to disclaim implied warranties, but I'm not sure they can get away
with it.  (Well, in states that have passed the UCITA they can.)

Of course, now with our wonderful new Digital Millenium Copyright Act
here in the former "land of the free", it might actually be *illegal*
to reverse-engineer the registration counter, if the vendor can convince a
court that the registration counter is an "effective copyright protection
measure".  In a truly marvelous display of sophistry, the judge in the
2600 case ruled that even a completely ineffective copyright protection
system is in fact "effective" because the DMCA gives it force of law.

If you were to get the idea that I'm fed up with what the republicrats
in the US Congress (more aptly named the "Parliament of Whores" by
P.J. O'Rourke) are doing for^H^H^Hto us, you'd be absolutely right.  If
you want lower taxes and sane public policy, vote Libertarian.

OK, I'll get off my soapbox now.

Eric

From eric at brouhaha.com  Thu Oct 19 15:31:52 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: computer rescue, Newport Beach, Sat. Oct 21
Message-ID: <20001019203152.20291.qmail@brouhaha.com>

[Reposted again, as the first *two* times the message didn't seem to go
through, though my other posts did.  Is there some strange conspiracy?]

Is anyone in the LA area available to help with a rescue of a large
computer system in Newport Beach on Saturday, Oct. 21?  A friend and I
are arriving at John Wayne airport at about 9:15 AM.  We'll take a taxi
if necessary to the Budget Truck Rental location in Newport Beach.
We're supposed to start loading the truck around noon, although we might
try to start earlier.

There are three pieces each about the size of a VAX-11/780 (i.e., 60
inches tall by 46 inches wide by 30 inches deep, and about 1100 pounds).
There are also about six large disk drives.  There may be other stuff,
but it probably won't be big and heavy.

The place where the equipment is being picked up has a loading dock.  In
theory all we have to do is roll from the currently location down some
hallways to the dock and into the truck.  But in practice things are
never as easy as one expects, which is why I'd like to find some
additional help.

Thanks!
Eric


From eric at brouhaha.com  Thu Oct 19 15:40:22 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: anyone in LA?
Message-ID: <20001019204022.20396.qmail@brouhaha.com>

I'm looking for people in LA to assist with a computer resuce in
Newport Beach on Saturday.  If anyone might be able to assist, please
send me email.  I've tried to post the details to the list three times
in the last twelve hours, and the posts don't get through, though my
other posts have.  I can't figure out if there's some strange conspiracy,
or if an over-zealous spam-filter has run amuck.

Thanks!
Eric


From j_carter_courtney at groton.pfizer.com  Mon Oct 16 08:20:48 2000
From: j_carter_courtney at groton.pfizer.com (carter courtney)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: pdp11
Message-ID: <39EB00B0.26035BD7@groton.pfizer.com>

Hi:
My company has a working pdp11 with disk drives and interface boards. It
is now moving offline and to the disposition process. I believe that it
will be moved to the trash unless someone will take it. We can not
assume any responsibility for transportation but would be glad ot donate
the pdp to a good cause.

carter courtney

From THETechnoid at home.com  Thu Oct 19 15:25:40 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: Enough already! (was: Re: MS Laugh-In)
In-Reply-To: <39EE8B16.2A61E0B5@home.net>
Message-ID: <20001019204653.GSWW315.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

Netscape problems under SUSE or Redhat have not locked my whole box, but
I'd have to switch virtual consoles and kill several tasks to allow
Xwindows to run again.  I think this is something like OS/2's issues with
stability.  OS/2 is rock-solid, but the GUI is not nearly so stable but is
much moreso than Xwindows is. With OS/2, a few third-party utils that
provide kill capabilities and GUI restart ability are helpful (PMPatrol is
great!).

That is one big difference between the Windows systems and Unix-like
systems such as OS/2 and Linux/BSD.  The latter are command-line operating
systems with GUIs added on.

The Windows systems grey the line between the operating system and user
interface to the point the two are inseperable on that platform. This
contributes to scaleability issues which preclude running them on legacy
hardware. Linux and Warp are very very scaleable.

Also, the line between the Windows system and the applications is very
grey.  Installing an application on Windows puts windows and the app in a
blender.  This is not so with OS/2 or Linux.  It is almost allways
sufficient to copy the app's directory and just run the thing. IMHO, this
is the greatest failing of Windows and what makes it prone to failure and
hard to fix - every machine running Windows is Unique - a Rembrandt though
that sullys the name.

Windows' constantly changing API's provide for innovation and quick
upgrades which give the user a better experience (while it stays running
sic.), but it also serves Microsoft by making them the only ones who can
write for thier os. This moving API makes ports to other platforms very
difficult.

I don't think MS has the resources or expertise to plan and write a
world-class operating system.

Really though, the most painful of all is Microsoft's gangster tactics. 
They prey on everyone large or small, they will attack and destroy
individuals for speaking against them.  This stuff about tying products
and such is just an excuse to avenge the many many more difficult to
prosecute acts of violence Microsoft has comitted.


NUKE REDMOND!

Regards,

Jeff  

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From cem14 at cornell.edu  Thu Oct 19 15:51:58 2000
From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: Mac II question
References: <39EF04C5.7C1EFB8@cornell.edu>
	 <4.3.2.7.2.20001019103933.00ba1e00@192.168.210.18> <4.3.2.7.2.20001019142240.00ce03f0@192.168.210.18>
Message-ID: <39EF5EEE.B8FAE21F@cornell.edu>

Bill Layer wrote:
> >   My plan now is to
> >beef up the IIci with the accelerator, more memory, a video
> >card and I'll have a neat, small 68K-based Mac II to play with.
> >I will be limiting the mac side of my collection to a Classic II,
> >an SE/30, the accelerated IIci and an 8100.
> 
> Does the accelerator solve the memory addressing problems in the IIc
> series? These models have 2MB of RAM built-on , plus two 30-pin sockets
> which will take 4MB SIMMS. Problem is, even with two 4MB SIMMS installed,
> the machine will only recognize a total of 10MB of RAM, not the 12MB that
> is physically present.
> 
> If that 68030 accelerator card also comes bearing an 68882 FPU, the system
> can then be used to run NetBSD (one of the free UNIX-like operating
> systems). For that matter, it might also run the M68K linux, but on 10MB
> I'm not sure how these systems will perform. FWIW, the SE/30 will also run
> NetBSD, and that model can easily be expanded to 32 or 64MB of RAM.

Well, I've just assembled a IIci system with the accelerator
(btw, it is a 33MHz 68040, not a 68030).  The "happy mac" icon
that shows up when the mac finds a system disk also says "Turbo 40"
or some such.  The IIci doesn't have any built-in RAM, but it does
have eight 30pin SIMM sockets.  I put 4x4MB + 4x1MB for the time being,
and under 7.0.1 it does find all 20Megs.  I timed the machine
from the moment the turn-on chime sounds until it finishes booting
(using a 2GB Seagate drive):  Twenty seconds.  Sweet :-) .  And it
even loads six or seven extensions.  I added an Asante NIC, a GPIB
board by National Instruments, and a Rasterops video card that
also has an S-video connector.  I'll have to install the GPIB
software and find out about other OS; I think that 8.1 was the
last one that ran in 68040-based machines, and 7.6.1 the last
one which ran on older macs.  

There is also one 72 pin SIMM socket in the mainboard next to the
cache slot (which is where the accelerator goes).  I wonder what it is
for...

-- 
Carlos Murillo-Sanchez    email:  cem14@cornell.edu  
428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department
Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853

From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Thu Oct 19 15:55:04 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: MS Laugh-In
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB231@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>

 
> If you were to get the idea that I'm fed up with what the republicrats
> in the US Congress (more aptly named the "Parliament of Whores" by
> P.J. O'Rourke) are doing for^H^H^Hto us, you'd be absolutely right.  If
> you want lower taxes and sane public policy, vote Libertarian.

Right arm!

-dq

From rdd at smart.net  Thu Oct 19 15:56:49 2000
From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.21.0010190123290.27478-100000@ridge.spiritone.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010191640370.1700-100000@smarty.smart.net>

On Thu, 19 Oct 2000, Aaron Nabil wrote:
> People who buy and sell surplus have a much wider market than "classic
> computer collectors" or they are out of business.  If anything, the
> collectors are the fringe weirdos who hang around the warehouse
                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Don't you mean computer preservationists?

> sniffing about the dumpsters and making absurdly low offers on
> things.  Ie, me.

Why not do that?  If no one is making any offers, then our low offers
should be appreciated; after all, is it not more sensible to make some
money on something rather than no money, or at lease minimize the
losses?  Aside from it being better for us, it's also better from a
business standpoint.  To just toss equipment into the dumpster because
no one will pay a certain fixed price for it, seems like a
temper-tantrum (wahhhh.... no one will pay me what I want.... [sounds
of feet and fists hitting floor and jumping up and down on the
computer equipment] wahhhhh!!!!).  That, I think, is childish, is it
not?

> A more accurate rendition would be "If I can't get the minimum price
> I want for it, I won't sell it to you for less even though I might end up
> throwing it away later."  Which seems perfectly reasonable to me.  I trust

Ok, time to put your thinking cap on... no, not the romper-stompers, your
thinking cap.  Ok, now, didn't you mean to say "wasteful" instead of
reasonable? ;-)

> sellers are sufficiently motivated by pressures like "eating" and "paying
> the rent" that they will always accept a truly reasonable offer.    

If they're reasonable, then, they'll take _some_ amount of money from
a collector if no other buyers are willing to pay more, so as to
minimize their losses, rather than take total losses and destroy
vintage equipment that, somewhere, someone can find useful.  It's not
like we're out here looking for free handouts.  We offer to pay what
we think is reasonable, although free finds are certainly nice when we
do find them. :-)

> Well, one problem is what you are defining as "vintage" and as "unethical
> to dumpster" might be what the vendor defines as crap.  There is a wide

The vendors only define vintage equipement as "crap" because they
don't know any better... of course, that's often to our advantage,
but not always.

> "vintage" in my mind, but that's just my personal tastes).  The list
> reports of "Ooo! I just rescued a Radio Shack COCO from Goodwill!" seems
> only an fraction less silly to me than someone reporting that they
> "rescued" a 15 inch VGA monitor from Goodwill.  So to you it might be a

There are still plenty of uses for 15" VGA monitors for applications that
don't require high-res. graphics.

> If you want to label the desire to maximize profit as "greed and
> selfishness" you are welcome to but it's not a very realistic way of
> looking at how the world works.

Yes, and look at the condition that the world is in.  Maximizing profits 
beyond a certain point can be bad for business; take too much away from 
customer service, goodwill, etc. and those pennies squeezed out to be
saved soon become pennies lost.

--
Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of
All Rights Reserved            Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to
rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd   a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD 





From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com  Thu Oct 19 16:21:56 2000
From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: pdp11
In-Reply-To: <39EB00B0.26035BD7@groton.pfizer.com>
Message-ID: <001201c03a12$9c4eb4c0$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>


Sounds like Groton CT.  ????
How many linear feet or hundred pounds is this?

John A.

From b.layer at vikingelectronics.com  Thu Oct 19 16:18:40 2000
From: b.layer at vikingelectronics.com (Bill Layer)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: Mac II question
In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB230@tegntserver.tegjeff
 .com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001019161751.00ce6260@192.168.210.18>

Hi,

>According to AppleSpec '98, those specs belong to the Mac LC II, not
>the IIc series (which is the IIcx and IIci). The IIcx and IIci have
>no on-board RAM, but have eight 30-pin sockets that can take the
>machines up to 128MB (but on the IIcx you need extra software to
>use anything larger than 32MB).

You're right - brain confused the LCII and the IIci series. Oops.


Bill Layer
Sales Technician
<b.layer@vikingelectronics.com>

+----------------------------------+
      Viking Electronics, Inc.
        1531 Industrial St.
     Hudson, WI. 54016 - U.S.A
       715.386.8861 ext. 210
  <http://www.vikingelectronics.com>
+----------------------------------+

"Telecom Solutions for the 21st Century"

  


From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Thu Oct 19 16:23:00 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: Mac II question
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB234@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>

 
> There is also one 72 pin SIMM socket in the mainboard next to the
> cache slot (which is where the accelerator goes).  I wonder what it is
> for...

It was meant to be used for ROM upgrades, but Apple never issued any.

-dq

From mlnealey at earthlink.net  Thu Oct 19 16:31:08 2000
From: mlnealey at earthlink.net (Mike Nealey)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: anyone in LA?
References: <20001019204022.20396.qmail@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <39EF681C.39C4E111@earthlink.net>

Hi Eric,

I'm in the LA area. What do you have going on? I've not heard of computer
rescue.

Thanks...
Mike N.


Eric Smith wrote:

> I'm looking for people in LA to assist with a computer resuce in
> Newport Beach on Saturday.  If anyone might be able to assist, please
> send me email.  I've tried to post the details to the list three times
> in the last twelve hours, and the posts don't get through, though my
> other posts have.  I can't figure out if there's some strange conspiracy,
> or if an over-zealous spam-filter has run amuck.
>
> Thanks!
> Eric


From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com  Thu Oct 19 16:37:49 2000
From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: IBM Series/1 Minicomputer
Message-ID: <F80q6DqaJY4kJSFsxf400001d4b@hotmail.com>

Ah, well then based on my experience with IBM winchester drives.. it's 
actually a metal box containing a smaller thing that is the actual drive 
itself.. its probably like 100 or so lbs. disk and 50 some pounds box... To 
move my 5360 (System/36) inside, I pulled the two disk drives out (200MB, 
14"), and each one only weighs about 70 lbs... However, that cuts 170lbs 
from the weight of the 5360, which weighs about 600 or so lbs. Even with 
large drives, don't forget that the HDA is often removable... this greatly 
eases moving RA80's and the like.. Of course, for cartridge drives, you're 
screwed. But I'm fairly certain the Series/1 uses a winchester, probably a 
series 62 variety drive, which is an 8" critter.

Will J
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.


From tarsi at binhost.com  Thu Oct 19 16:41:29 2000
From: tarsi at binhost.com (Tarsi)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: pdp11
In-Reply-To: <39EB00B0.26035BD7@groton.pfizer.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001019164113.024b3eb0@binhost.com>

The question, of course, is:  Where is it?

Tarsi
210

At 09:20 AM 10/16/00 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi:
>My company has a working pdp11 with disk drives and interface boards. It
>is now moving offline and to the disposition process. I believe that it
>will be moved to the trash unless someone will take it. We can not
>assume any responsibility for transportation but would be glad ot donate
>the pdp to a good cause.
>
>carter courtney


From r.stek at snet.net  Thu Oct 19 17:11:59 2000
From: r.stek at snet.net (Robert Stek)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: New finds .... 2 HP-85's
Message-ID: <NEEEJCNDEHGPLCKLAOKBGELFCFAA.r.stek@snet.net>

To all who replied.... many thanks.

One of them had a 16K memory Module (so I guess it's an 85A) and a ROM
drawer with an I/O ROM and a Mass Storage ROM and a HP-IB Interface.  I took
a chance after some initial cleaning and powered one up.  It worked!  But
the keyboard has terrible bounce!  It appeared that the printer wanted to
print but without paper in it, I don't know if it does.  I plan to
disassemble it for a more thorough cleaning, including removing all the
keycaps and cleaning out the innards of the family of dust bunnies living
there.  More weekend cleaning chores!

I will order the CDROM with the manuals - that's the easiest way to get
docs. Are new tapes still available?

Bob Stek
Saver of Lost Sols



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Oct 19 17:21:39 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: New finds .... 2 HP-85's
In-Reply-To: <NEEEJCNDEHGPLCKLAOKBGELFCFAA.r.stek@snet.net> from "Robert Stek" at Oct 19, 0 06:11:59 pm
Message-ID: <m13mO4E-000IyHC@p850ug1>

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From KenzieM at sympatico.ca  Thu Oct 19 17:30:57 2000
From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: pdp11
References: <39EB00B0.26035BD7@groton.pfizer.com>
Message-ID: <011601c03a1d$af404020$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca>

As has been asked on the list where is this machine?

Would it be possible to pick it up on a weekend?

Mike


----- Original Message -----
From: "carter courtney"
<j_carter_courtney@groton.pfizer.com>
To: <mrbill@pdp11.org>
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2000 9:20 AM
Subject: pdp11


> Hi:
> My company has a working pdp11 with disk drives and
interface boards. It
> is now moving offline and to the disposition process. I
believe that it
> will be moved to the trash unless someone will take it. We
can not
> assume any responsibility for transportation but would be
glad ot donate
> the pdp to a good cause.
>
> carter courtney


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Thu Oct 19 18:08:03 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: Enough already! (was: Re: MS Laugh-In)
Message-ID: <002e01c03a22$05dde0a0$ba789a8d@ajp166>

From: Carlos Murillo <cem14@cornell.edu>


>For me, win95 crashed with just adaptec, 3Com, matrox and SoundBlaster
Gold
>cards.  I'd hardly call these obscure brands in the PCI adapter world.


I'm running at work w95osr2 with aha2906 on a scanner for one box and my
desktop is a full house K2-350 (make sure you have the K2 patch) with
CDburner
sound and all.  It's a configuration issue usually PLUG and PRAY trying
to
sort out resources.

>>admit that it's because I don't know what the hell I'm doing, when I
use it.
>>Does that mean that Linux is designed badly? If Linux is so great, why
is
>>there an almost daily alert in my inbox from bugzilla, reporting some
>>security risk or other newly found flaw?


Often if linux or any fairly stable OS crashes it's a bad app or driver.
Video drivers are often the worst save to the minimal ones and they may
drive the latest 16meg video.

W95 suffers as its level of file and memory protections is light and apps
can bust it.  Treat it like dos (no protections) and pick your apps right
and W95 is amazingly stable.  One comment, if you have an app the
breaks check for patches, often they do exist and really help.

>1) There will always be more bugs/security flaws _reported_ for Linux
>   because the user base is more demanding (after all that's why they're
>   running Linux) and because more people will be checking the open
>   source for problems.  That doesn't mean that Linux is more bug-prone;
>   just that reporting is better.


The issue is granularity, fine bugs vs glaring booboos.

>2) Bugs actually get fixed (quickly) in Linux.
>
>See, the Linux mentality is that we'd rather discover the flaws so we
>can fix them. The MS mentality is: let's put crap out and hope that they
>don't find the holes, and, if they do find them, we'll tell them to
upgrade
>to the next generation of winblows. Only if the flaw is bad enough,
we'll
>release a patch.


MS is very slow on patches and they can be hard to sort out but
they are effective.

>There will always be some OS rivalry based on XenoOSphobia.  But,
>most people who hate windows are not unfamiliar with it--rather,
>they hate it because they are all too familiar with it.


;)  W95 is one of those.  I use it or the like and kind as the world
has gone that way and compatability is important.  I'm not satisfied
after working with TOPS-10, CP/M, RT11, RSTS and VMS as  my
models of what can or should be.  Robustness is something I prize
as well as somthing well known flawed or not.

Consider this:

    Stable mature systems we know how to use.

That doesn't mean DOS6.22 is bad only we know it's limits and
can deal with them effectively.

>But MS won't be patient with you.  Until we see some real competition,
>they have the upper hand: they can put crap out, and it will be bought.


I think their testing has to reflect the increased complexity and
that other apps are popular and used.

Allison


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Thu Oct 19 18:18:24 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: MS Laugh-In
Message-ID: <004b01c03a23$703c4bc0$ba789a8d@ajp166>

>Richard Erlacher wrote:
>>
>> I'm told that the principal difference between W98SE and ME is that
you
>> can't install ME without first registering it.  I haven't tried it, so
I
>> don't know whether that's really the case, but . . .
>>
>> Dick


I have, and it cant register as the systems it was put on have no modems
nor does the interanet they are on conect to the internet.  Runs just
fine.

>have to register in order for it to keep working.  I actually
>opened and quit Word 50 times to see what happened.  It refused
>to keep working.  So I registered, and it asked me whether I agreed
>to provide information about my computer to MS so that
>"they could offer me better technical support in the future".
>Needless to say, I refused, but I wonder how much the managed to find
>out about me in the process.


I'd heard about that and refuse to buy Word2000.  Very simple, the
machines I manage cannot and will not talk to the outside.  MS has
to fix that.

This is a rampent disease out there, the idea that network access
is fast and always there means they (VENDORs) can skip docs,
 final patches, updates by mail or a lot of other things we pay for.
I had to camp on Allaire to send a CD as they wanted me to
download the eval version of  their CF4.51product, it's way to
big for a modem, even at 56k.  HP dumped STAC (or did STAC
fail?) and I find out when the backups on the T20I travan failed.
Find that on the web site... nope.  WE BUY this crap, that why
it is pandered.


Allison


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Thu Oct 19 18:31:12 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: Enough already! (was: Re: MS Laugh-In)
Message-ID: <005a01c03a24$f9fee880$ba789a8d@ajp166>

From: Enrico Badella <enrico.badella@softstar.it>


>years that Linux kernels have crashed on me, while my NT SP6 now that
I've
>added a soundblaster live has the tendancy of giving me a BSOD quite
>frequently. How can NT with MS audio drivers crash? This is only
>acceptable if you are doing your own drivers or hacking the kernel.


I had the same problem on my servers, killed the audio in the bios
and it persisted.  The 4mb Trident AGP video driver was bad news.
Since it's a server I used the MS PCI XGA and it worked much better.
However, even with the BSOD, the system was still serving pages!
I didn't like the BSOD but the system was still intact.

The audio and video drivers in NT4 live in ring zero (low protection)
to make the gamers happy.  NT3.51 didn't do this and was far less
prone.  Better video and audio drivers often solve the problem.

My solution is keep the games, audio and high end video off the
NT box I want it robust.  Put those things on a W9x crate and
play there.

>From a commercial product I would expect a reliability at least as
Solaris
>or VMS (well here I've asking probably too much)


;)

>Have you every though about docs? If you don't ave resource kit, that
kit
>other kit there is no way to get info about processes running un a NT
box.


Lessee, NT, three finger salute hit the correct tab and you get data and
can
even stop or kill them from there if they are not protected.  there are
utilities
out there.  Check Tucows!

>At least on unix you can do a man xxxxx. who knows what smss.exe or
csrss.exe
>do?


Even if you do know what they do what can you do about it, with it?

Allison


From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Thu Oct 19 19:07:46 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: Beginner into Micros, etc.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010181304480.14475-100000@siconic.com>
References: <m13lze6-000IyVC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <l03102808b61538c7dd7c@[192.168.1.4]>

>Besides money, you must also invest time in searching out old computers.

Its really time OR money. Many of us on the list are bargain hunters with
old computers the choosen prey. There is nothing wrong with just BUYING
what you want and letting someone else do the hunting. Years ago on the
Compuserve Hifi forum somebody was lamenting that try as they might they
could not find a certain very desirable old Marantz tube amplifier. The
advice he got was to make a "serious" cash offer, which he did, and half a
dozen of them magically became available. He was able to buy a matched pair
in mint condition, for what later turned out to be a VERY fair price ($500
each if I remember correctly).

If you REALLY want some certain item, that is what I would suggest, make a
large serious cash offer and pick the finest system out of what you are
offered. This list has a HUGE bias toward buying near junk at cheap prices
and spending the rest of your life fixing it, and looking for parts and
manuals. If that is what you like, and its more or less my personal
preference, then hop in the mud is fine.

If you want a "working" system without a LOT of time spent, buy the
absolute best unit you can afford. A complete working system that has never
been out of a clean room with conditioned power that has all the software,
manuals, and spares is a WORLD apart and better than many of us start with,
or end up with.

>If you've only been at this for a few short months and are frustrated
>because you haven't found many old computers, don't be.  You are still
>just a beginner.  It takes years to assemble a significant collection.

Kind of funny the two main questions from collectors are;

Where can I find more stuff.

Where can I put all this stuff I found.



From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Thu Oct 19 19:29:49 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:05 2005
Subject: Enough already! (was: Re: MS Laugh-In)
In-Reply-To: <OE13ZDgC81TbdkSmLAz00001026@hotmail.com>
References: 
 <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010180917050.18500-100000@lanshark.lanminds.com>
Message-ID: <l0310280ab6154189ed3c@[192.168.1.4]>

>that. Can we please put an end to this childishness?

NO. You can't put an end to anything on the interent. I don't say that to
be disagreeable, but its a basic fact that some issues will apparently
arise from time to time for all eternity.

Also though unrelated in my opinion I refuse to grow up.



From oliv555 at arrl.net  Thu Oct 19 18:43:36 2000
From: oliv555 at arrl.net (no)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:06 2005
Subject: BA23 w/RA70
References: <39EE48DA.73175AD@arrl.net> <105401c039fc$a84fd580$0c00000a@techcare.com>
Message-ID: <39EF8728.9393D0E7@arrl.net>



Sean Caron wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "no" <oliv555@arrl.net>
> To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 9:05 PM
> Subject: BA23 w/RA70
> 
> > Well I've got this empty BA23 and enough boards to put
> > together a MVIII/kda50. What I don't have is the RA control
> > panel.
> >
> >
> > nick o
> >
> 
 < snip >
>
> Do I need anything else besides the card and the drive (like this RA-series
> control panel mentioned in the previous message)? How are the drives
> cabled to the card? Is the cabling something relatively straightforward that
> I could put together myself?
> 
> --Sean Caron (root@diabloent.net) | http://www.diablonet.net

There are two cables and a junction block. The card-to-block cable
is p/n 17-00951-03; number on j-block is 70-25405-01 but this is for
the BA213 and I don't believe will fit the BA123.

The drive-to-junction block cable is the one that I am still missing.
Don't have a number for it either, maybe a list member with this setup
can provide a p/n? Otherwise i will end up building my own.

It's been a real chore digging up this info from the Compaq site. I just
completed a project at work where I replaced the RA60s on our 11/785s
with the SA72 (SABB) data arrays. Had the same problem getting the
correct cables for that assembly.

nick oliviero

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Oct 19 18:34:11 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:06 2005
Subject: Beginner into Micros, etc.
In-Reply-To: <l03102808b61538c7dd7c@[192.168.1.4]> from "Mike Ford" at Oct 19, 0 04:07:46 pm
Message-ID: <m13mPCQ-000IyHC@p850ug1>

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From claudew at sprint.ca  Thu Oct 19 19:00:15 2000
From: claudew at sprint.ca (Claude)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:06 2005
Subject: Who remembers CDC Plato?...run it again on a cyber at home...could it be 
 done?
Message-ID: <39EF8B0F.1F785881@sprint.ca>

Hi

I grew up having access to the Plato system at the University near my
home. A neighboor was a chemistry teacher there and knew I was
interested in computers and gave me access to a bunch of stuff at the
university and I guess CDC's Plato was the most fun.

I went on to write a few games for the system when I was about 15-16
(1980) in that "tutor" language. I spent a lotta time on that system...A
lot...It was like an early "internet" with network games etc...that
thing was great!

The other night I was thinking that since I have now about 85% of the
"home" microcomputers from the 197x-198x I should go on to something
different...I guess running Plato here at home would be wicked...not
really usefull but great fun for me...

Now I never the saw the hardware running Plato. I only know that it used
a CDC cyber. So I am thinking...

What Cyber ran plato? 

How big were they?(I heard of huge! Did not find any pics on the
internet of one...)

What are my chances of fiding one? 

And the plato software? (slim I guess...)

If I remember well, there was a emulator for the IBMPC to run a plato
terminal....no touch screen but still...anybody remember this?...that
could save me from having to look for an old "plasma" terminal like they
called them back then...

Thanks for reading
Claude

From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Thu Oct 19 18:55:36 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:06 2005
Subject: Enough already! (was: Re: MS Laugh-In)
Message-ID: <00af01c03a29$42d80f60$ba789a8d@ajp166>


-----Original Message-----
From: Ernest <ernestls@home.com>


>I have mixed feelings about MS Windows/NT but first of all, I should say
>that I've earned a quite a nice chunk of change supporting MS products
both
>because they used brute force to make their product the office standard
>(plenty of IS jobs,) and because their products are so faulty to begin
with.
>Should I be thanking them, or cursing them? It's an enigma to me.


;)  it gave me yet another career to lure me from my beloved analog.

>Windows is great. I believe that it's because, through my years of
>supporting it, and working with it, I've intuitively learned it's
>limitations. At my office, the machines that I purchase and setup myself
are
>stable. This is because I research what software plays well with Windows
and
>avoid that which doesn't, and because I choose hardware that I've
learned to
>trust -like Asus, and 3com. I'm immediately suspicious when someone
calls me


Very good point.  it all has to work together.  VMS has an advantage as
the
hardware and software are married (least for the vax!).

>cases, reasonable to me. The user is a beginner or a moron. They loaded
some
>stupid screensaver or badly designed piece of freeware. Or the computer

Common problem, deleting something or worse moving to nowhere useful.


>itself is just to old to run the newer software that's been loaded. In
my
>experience, these are the most common reasons for crashes. Occasionally,

Funny thing most of my systems are P166MMXs and only 32mb ram with
good IDE drives of adaquate size, crashes are uncommon for some and
very common for others.  Why, every hear of Crystal Reports, to name
one peice of crap that is part of some large payroll companies package
(begins with A,,).

>there's a broken video card or bad memory chips, or a power fluctuation
but


My pet problem especially wiith older boxes those IDC connectors after
about
5 insertion/removeal cycles get real flakey.

>maybe 1 in 15 times is it what I believe to be a problem with Windows or
>it's design. When someone's computer crashes, they love to blame Windows
but
>how often is the problem really with Windows? Possibly always but there
are
>a lot of variables to consider when you place the blame.


Good point.  I had a winbox get nasty about finding the mouse due to a
bad power connector!  No other problems, just wanted to find a PS2
mouse despite having a 9pin generic.

>howls of agony in the distance? I want to like Linux, and I do like it
but
>it's got it's flaws, just like Windows. Right now, I would recommend
Windows


Linus is not for the novice computer user or as I call it

         "not yet ready for prime time"

Otherwise it's fine.

Allison


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Thu Oct 19 19:16:38 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:06 2005
Subject: Enough already! (was: Re: MS Laugh-In)
Message-ID: <00c601c03a2c$1565a990$ba789a8d@ajp166>

From: Mike Ford <mikeford@socal.rr.com>


And to keep the Classiccmp seramoanial (sp!)
note going.

>Also though unrelated in my opinion I refuse to grow up.


Wasn't that " I won't grow up..."?

Actually this is a fun topic even if way off.

Allison


From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Thu Oct 19 20:25:05 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:06 2005
Subject: Beginner into Micros, etc.
In-Reply-To: <m13mPCQ-000IyHC@p850ug1>
References: <l03102808b61538c7dd7c@[192.168.1.4]> from "Mike Ford" at Oct
 19, 0 04:07:46 pm
Message-ID: <l0310280cb6154f2f2349@[192.168.1.4]>

>> >Besides money, you must also invest time in searching out old computers.
>>
>> Its really time OR money. Many of us on the list are bargain hunters with
>> old computers the choosen prey. There is nothing wrong with just BUYING
>> what you want and letting someone else do the hunting. Years ago on the
>
>Well, one thing 'wrong' with it is that you miss out on all the fun of

Its wrong not to eat your parsely too, but as an adult you are allowed to
decide what you like, and avoid those you don't.



From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Thu Oct 19 19:30:08 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:06 2005
Subject: Enough already! (was: Re: MS Laugh-In)
Message-ID: <00c901c03a2d$a3f02ea0$ba789a8d@ajp166>

From: Neil Cherry <ncherry@home.net>


>The Windows part is very true! I have a machine which has 32M of RAM
>and a 2G disk with W95 and I save my work often as everything teaters
>on the border of failure.


Something is wrong.  FYI that box must ahve at least 50-100mb of free
space(more if MS office or office97 is there) on whatever drive the
system swaps on.  that or something is plain marginal.  I have one
system at work, get this, 486dx/50, 12mb ram, 1mb video (cirrus)
and 500mb (st3660).  It runs Win95osr2, word97, IE and OE on the
internal net (using TCP/IP no netbeui), reliabily though slow!  Old
is not the factor here.

>BTW: Linux will stress your hardware severely. If your hardware isn't up
>snuff Linux will cause it to fail. But (in the same breath) Linux can


That is true.  It may not work with some devices as well.

>easily run on systems where older versions of Windows will fail to run.
>I can build a base Linux that will fit on a 50M disk (with swap). Heck
>I can run my 3B2 on that (sorry no Linux for the 3B2).


I've put W95, OE, IE networking and Word on a WD2120 (120mb)
with 50mb free (allowing 16mb swap).  There is nothing special
about that and linix will fir in far smaller than 50mb (I have Trevors
LRP floppy yes linux, routing and whatnot on ONE 1.44mb floppy).
My first try with linus was on a 60mb IDE (slackware 3.0).

>Microsoft products and other OS's. I've lived through Lan Mangler 3.5
>with OSI (I hate Domains!) though the various erosion of various
protocols
>bent towards Microsoft's use (and away from every one else's if they
>don't use Microsoft).


This is very true and painful for us that know the truth.

Allison



From cfandt at netsync.net  Thu Oct 19 19:43:29 2000
From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:06 2005
Subject: pdp11
In-Reply-To: <39EB00B0.26035BD7@groton.pfizer.com>
Message-ID: <4.1.20001019204114.00b06850@206.231.8.2>

Upon the date 09:20 AM 10/16/00 -0400, carter courtney said something like:
>Hi:
>My company has a working pdp11 with disk drives and interface boards. It
>is now moving offline and to the disposition process. I believe that it
>will be moved to the trash unless someone will take it. We can not
>assume any responsibility for transportation but would be glad ot donate
>the pdp to a good cause.
>
>carter courtney

Thanks loads for your company's kind offer! 

But, if nobody's asked up to now, where are you???

Regards,  Chris
-- --
Christian Fandt,         Electronic/Electrical Historian
Jamestown, NY  USA      cfandt@netsync.net
        Member of Antique Wireless Association                         
        URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/

From jhfine at idirect.com  Thu Oct 19 19:45:53 2000
From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:06 2005
Subject: MMJ Info
References: <38.cd0fef6.2720733e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <39EF95C1.39C1BFB1@idirect.com>

>Mzthompson@aol.com wrote:

> [Snip]
> The H8571-A and H8575-A are MMJ to DB25 (female) and are wired as follows:
> MMJ     DB25
>  1       20
>  2        2
>  3        7
>  4        7
>  5        3
>  6        6 & 8
> Also pins 4 & 5 of the DB25 are tied together
> I have used the above using a standard DEC BC16E cable to connect to
> a PC 25-pin serial port to use the PC as a terminal.

Jerome Fine replies:

I have one of the H8575-A, but have not yet done a continuity check to verify
the connections that you state.  But I assume that you are correct.  One of these
days I will attempt to verify that all of the above works with a VT320.  Thank you.

Any suggestions on how to verify the above?  Can a simple tester do this?

> The H8571-C and H8571-F are MMJ to DB25 (male) and are wired as follows:
> MMJ     DB25
>  1        6
>  2        3
>  3        7
>  4        7
>  5        2
>  6       20

I have an H8571-F as well.  When I pried apart the DB25 from the housing,
that was what I found.

> And here is a summary on how the various signal lines match up to
> each other on the different connectors.
> Term  Term  MMJ                        MMJ port on DEC
> DB25   DE9                             computer or Decserver
>  20     4    1 --->-------------->----------------->--- 6
>   2     3    2 --->-------------->----------------->--- 5
>   7     5    3 ---------------------------------------- 4
>   7     5    4 ---------------------------------------- 3
>   3     2    5 ---<--------------<-----------------<--- 2
>   6     6    6 ---<--------------<-----------------<--- 1

Seems very reasonable.  And it does work since I also connected up two
VT320 terminals using two cables and one female DB25 and one male
DB25 (i.e. one H8575-A and one H8571-F) after I had used just a
single BC16E cable.

However, I have two more VT320 terminals which I want to connect
and I don't have at least one H8571-F.

So here is the question.  Since we have both found the cost of the H8575-A
and the H8571-F DB25 MMJ to DB25 connectors to be a bit high in the
price (i.e. more than we want to pay), would it be reasonable to cut the
cable in half and put an ordinary RJ11 phone connector on each cut
end to produce TWO cables?  I also happen to have a couple of RJ11
to DB25 connectors (male) to which I could then connect the newly mated
RJ11 normal style.  That way, I would not need to have the DEC MMJ
connectors.  However, there is one minor problem - you note that both
pins 3 and 4 are connected to DB25 pin 7!  Must that be done?  The problem
is that the RJ11 end has all 6 pins connected to 6 individual male components
and it will be a hassle to attempt to connect both of pins 3 and 4 of the RJ11
to DB25 pin 7 - to say the least.  May one be omitted and if so which one?

I think that this should be possible since I also happened to find another
MMJ DB25 female connector which has the "funny" DEC offset, but
without the DEC name.  In this case, I was also to pry the DB25 off the
housing and found that pin 3 in the MMJ side was left hanging and not
connected to anything.  In addition, on the DB25 side, pin 6 was not
connected to pin 8.  I have not had a chance to test with both the DEC
(H8575-A) and the non-DEC DB25 female connectors with a VT320
at each end, so I am not sure if the non-DEC version can be used.  But
since the non-DEC (i.e. without the DEC label) has the "funny" DEC
offset, I feel I can assume that it will probably work - in point of fact,
I might have used that one when I did the VT320 to VT320 test.

If my suggestion is possible, then it should be very easy to convert any
DEC BC16E cable into two cables with one end being used at the
VT320 and the other (after being fitted with a standard RJ11 connector)
to be used with a normal RJ11 to DB25 connector.

Just though I would ask for some advice and suggestion.  Also, if anyone
has already done this, and it worked, then I would know it is going to be
OK.  If there was something I should be aware of and it has already be
figured out, that would be helpful to know.  Note that the VT320 terminals
will be used without a modem, so if all DEC parts were used, the BC16E
cable with an H8571-F would first be used to convert to a standard
DB25 male interface.  Then a null modem cable would be used to connect
the DB25 male to the standard DB25 male on a DEC computer.  The
key point is to attempt to become independent of the DEC "funny" offset
within the first cable connected to the VT320.  The annoying part is that
I have a number of RJ11 to DB25 convertors without the "funny" DEC
offset plus a small amount of 6 and 8 wire cable that I can't use since
I first have to overcome the "funny" DEC offset.

If I don't receive a reply, I will still go ahead, but it may take a few weeks
or even a few months.  I will post the results in case anyone is interested.
If I forget and anyone wants to shake me out of a "senior moment", please
inquire.

Sincerely yours,

Jerome Fine


From rickb at bensene.com  Thu Oct 19 20:07:52 2000
From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:06 2005
Subject: Who remembers CDC Plato?...run it again on a cyber at home...could it be  done?
In-Reply-To: <39EF8B0F.1F785881@sprint.ca>
Message-ID: <NDBBLGPCOLFICAHOHKHLOEFDCCAA.rickb@bensene.com>

Claude wrote (excerpted)
>
> I grew up having access to the Plato system at the University near my
> home. A neighboor was a chemistry teacher there and knew I was
> interested in computers and gave me access to a bunch of stuff at the
> university and I guess CDC's Plato was the most fun.

An amazing software system for the time.
>
> Now I never the saw the hardware running Plato. I only know that it used
> a CDC cyber. So I am thinking...
>
> What Cyber ran plato?

Any of the Cyber 7x and 17x machines could run Plato, I believe,
but I think that there were some special interfaces that were used to
hook up those special terminals to the system's I/O subsystem.

>
> How big were they?(I heard of huge! Did not find any pics on the
> internet of one...)

Oh, they're big all right.  Back in the late 1970's, I used to be a systems
operator at Tektronix, in Beaverton, Oregon.  The Tektronix Scientific
Computer Center had a a CDC Cyber 73.  It was monsterous.

First off, it had a cabinet about the size of a VAX 11/780 CPU that
was nothing but the REFRIGERATION for the system.  There was a series
of pipes that ran through the system that provided the cooling.
Next, was the massive motor/generator down in the basement of the building
(the computer center was on the 4th floor of the building).  The Cyber
ran on 400Hz 3-phase.  The motor/generator downstairs took 220V
3-phase and converted it to 400 cycle power.  I never saw the
motor/generator,
but I was told that it was about the size of a semi-truck trailer.  The
power supply of the machine was another approx. 8 ft. tall, 4 ft. wide
cabinet.  The CPU itself was, as I recall, 6 bays, each of which was big
enough, that when the outer doors were opened, and the internal bays
containing the electronics were swung out, a man could fit inside.  The bays
were about 4 feet deep, 8 feet tall, and 6 to 7 feet wide.

The machine was truly amazing.  A 60-bit word main CPU, with ten
PPU's (peripheral processing units) that performed interface to
peripherals.  I think (can't remember for sure) that it had
128K-words (each word 60 bits) of core memory.  One of the 'peripherals'
of the system was a Modcomp 16-bit minicomputer that handled all of the I/O
to literally hundreds of async terminals all over the Tek campus.
Characters
were represented in 6 bits...called 'Display Code'.  The Modcomp
did all of the translation between ASCII and Display code for all of
those terminals.

The console of the system was glorious...a very large desk, with
two round CRT displays that used vector graphics to paint the screen.
There were a lot of fun graphics programs that could only run on the
console...things like 'eyes' that would look around and blink, a great chess
game, and a Snoopy vs. the Red Baron animation that was fun.

The 73 had two 9-track and one 7-track magtape drive, a monster
CDC chain-type line printer(that thing was FAST), a card reader, a card
punch,
and a big slew of those washing-machine-sized 10 or 12-platter removable
disc
drives (there must have been 14 or 16 of 'em, each holding something like
300 MB of 12-bit words.

This system didn't run Plato.   I learned about Plato from an
engineer that worked at Tek who went to the University of Illinois,
a place where a lot of Plato development work was done.

The OS that ran on the system was called KRONOS.  It was a multi-user
multi-executive OS that did both interactive and batch processing.  There
were a number of RJE stations around the campus that had punch card
readers and printers that users could submit their F77 (Fortran 77)
and PASCAL jobs to remotely.

Later, Tek brought in another big CDC machine, a Cyber 175, I believe.
It wasn't quite as large as the 73, but still needed liquid cooling, most
all of the logic in the 175 was ECL, and it ran fast and hot.  The console
wasn't nearly as impressive, one 'page' oriented CRT, but still vector.
I think that the 175 had 20 PPU's versus the 10 of the Cyber 73, and of
course, the main CPU was quite a bit faster than the old 73.

>
> What are my chances of fiding one?

Next to nil, I would guess.  They were loaded with precious metals (gold!)
and lots of good scrap metal too.  The scrappers loved 'em.

Even if you could find one in storage somewhere (it'd have to be a pretty
good-sized warehouse!) it'd be a major operation just to move the machine.
Plus, once you got it to your house, not likely you'd have any place
to put it!  Not the kind of machine you can set up out in the garage.
Then...even if you had a place to put it, getting the 400Hz 208V
is going to be a challenge...probably draws some massive load.  Don't
know what the current loading was

> And the plato software? (slim I guess...)
>
Very hard to say.  I know that University of Illinois did a lot with
Plato...perhaps someone there has some old tapes laying around.
Might not be able to read them anymore...early Cybers used 7-track magtape,
at some ridiculously low bpi.

> If I remember well, there was a emulator for the IBMPC to run a plato
> terminal....no touch screen but still...anybody remember this?...that
> could save me from having to look for an old "plasma" terminal like they
> called them back then...
>
I remember seeing an old show called "The 21st Century" sometime in the
'70's
that was hosted by Walter Cronkite.  One show was on computers.  They
showed one of the plasma Plato terminals, with a child running a CAI
(Computer Aided Instruction) program.  Now, you've probably got a better
time trying to find one of those old plasma terminals than you've got
of finding a Cyber laying around somewhere.

Thanks for the memories,

Rick Bensene
The Old Calculator Web Museum
http://www.geocities.com/oldcalculators


From gregorym at cadvision.com  Thu Oct 19 19:56:05 2000
From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:06 2005
Subject: Who remembers CDC Plato?...run it again on a cyber at home...could it be  done?
References: <39EF8B0F.1F785881@sprint.ca>
Message-ID: <05c901c03a30$868554a0$0200a8c0@marvin>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Claude" <claudew@sprint.ca>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2000 6:00 PM
Subject: Who remembers CDC Plato?...run it again on a cyber at home...could
it be done?
>
> The other night I was thinking that since I have now about 85% of the
> "home" microcomputers from the 197x-198x I should go on to something
> different...I guess running Plato here at home would be wicked...not
> really usefull but great fun for me...
>

It's not the full system, but there was a fair bit of the Plato courseware
available for the TI-99/4A. It required an expanded TI with a PEB and at
least one SS/SD disk drive. There was a Plato "interpreter" cartridge,
which you needed to access any of the courseware, and a series of different
course packages. Somewhere in the "long term storage facility" (hall
closet) at home I have the "Introduction to French Vocabulary" package,
complete with CDC copyrights all over it. I'm sure that a search through
the many TI-related Web sites would turn up some of the Plato software.

Regards,
Mark.


From ernestls at home.com  Thu Oct 19 20:37:45 2000
From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:06 2005
Subject: Enough already! (was: Re: MS Laugh-In)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010182039030.14933-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <MPBBIHIJJHCCOBHIHBAJEEFJMLAB.ernestls@home.com>

I humbly apologize for so deeply, deeply hurting you, Sellam, with my
opinions on Windows and Linux. If I had known that I would cause you so much
personal pain by throwing in my two cents on the subject, gee, I would have
just played Quake instead. I do understand your grief though. See, when I
was twelve, I got my first computer. It was a brand new Commodore 64, and I
thought that it was the best thing ever... that was, until someone pointed
out it's short comings to me. I was crushed, and just like you, I became
defensive and upset too. I did grow up though, and now I understand that no
computer, or OS can be all things to everyone, and nothing that we create is
perfect. So you see, I do understand your pain, and the only thing that I
can say to make you feel better is that some day, you'll understand, also,
that your new toy may not be perfect but that doesn't mean that it's bad.
Life goes on, Sellam, and someday you'll look back at this and think, "Gosh,
maybe I over reacted just a little bit," and that's OK. We all grow up at
our own pace.

Ernest

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org
[mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Sellam Ismail
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 8:54 PM
To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org
Subject: RE: Enough already! (was: Re: MS Laugh-In)


On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Ernest wrote:

> With that in mind, I've wondered for some time if Windows (like Linux)
> crashes so often because of a lack of user understanding, and poorly

This is the second reference I've seen this week to complaining about
Linux crashing.  I find this to be ludicrous.

Look, if Linux crashes, it's because YOU did something wrong or
something's wrong with your hardware.  Windows just crashes for seemingly
no good reason.  Linux doesn't.

So people, please.  Don't blame your own shortcomings on Linux.

> all of the others aren't? Usually, the reasons become apparent, and in
most
> cases, reasonable to me. The user is a beginner or a moron. They loaded
some
> stupid screensaver or badly designed piece of freeware. Or the computer

An OS that let's an application cause it to crash is a joke.

> it's design. When someone's computer crashes, they love to blame Windows
but
> how often is the problem really with Windows? Possibly always but there
are
> a lot of variables to consider when you place the blame.

I have a brand new Dell machine.  I primarily run IE, a solid telnet
client (CRT), a good mail reader (Pegasus), Word, Works, Napster, and
whatnot.  Nothing too exotic or risky.  Windows crashes.  I have to reboot
about 2 times a month.

Fix my computer, Ernest :)

> My Linux box crashes more often than my Windows box, and I'm the first to
> admit that it's because I don't know what the hell I'm doing, when I use
it.

Thank you.

> Does that mean that Linux is designed badly? If Linux is so great, why is
> there an almost daily alert in my inbox from bugzilla, reporting some
> security risk or other newly found flaw? As a frustrated new Linux user,

You're obviously going about this the wrong way.  Why not pick something
stable like RH 6.2 and just stick with it?  That's what I did, and my
server's been up constantly for months now.  Stop trying to be on the
bleeding edge.

> that doesn't build my trust in it but I still like using it. I wonder if
> Linux proponents, like the early Apple users, have simply decided that
their
> OS is better than Windows, whether it's a truly better OS or not, simply
> because they don't like Microsoft. I don't like Microsoft but that doesn't
> mean that Linux is great. Linux is what it is, and that has nothing to do
> with Microsoft.

This argument is sickening.  Calling Windows an OS in the same sentence as
mentioning Linux is wrong in the most dire sense of the word.

> I've been living high on the hog (weird phrase, eh?) by suckling up to the
> virtual teat that Microsoft's software problems have created, and it's a
> mighty BIG teat for sure but doesn't it seem reasonable to assume that any
> other mass produced OS would have just as bad a reputation if it were as
> common as MS Windows? Can you imagine how pleasantly Linux would be
embraced

No, it's not reasonable.  You just have this attitude because, as you
plainly have acknowledge, you make a living off of the misery that people
must suffer due to the shit products that one software company has forced
onto the world with their f-ed up marketing practices.

> if it became the new standard in homes across America? Can you hear the
> howls of agony in the distance? I want to like Linux, and I do like it but
> it's got it's flaws, just like Windows. Right now, I would recommend
Windows

Again, you're doing something wrong.  I think I see the problem.  You're
approaching Linux as you would with Windows.  Windows needs every patch
that comes out for it because it is fundamentally flawed. Linux does not.
You just don't get it.

Sorry to carry on this lame thread, but it is sometimes necessary to
dispell ignorant obfuscation of the facts.

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer
Festival
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
International Man of Intrigue and Danger
http://www.vintage.org



From lemay at cs.umn.edu  Thu Oct 19 20:49:24 2000
From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:06 2005
Subject: Who remembers CDC Plato?...run it again on a cyber at home...could
 it be  done?
In-Reply-To: <39EF8B0F.1F785881@sprint.ca> from Claude at "Oct 19, 2000 08:00:15
 pm"
Message-ID: <200010200149.UAA08557@caesar.cs.umn.edu>

> 
> Now I never the saw the hardware running Plato. I only know that it used
> a CDC cyber. So I am thinking...
> 
> What are my chances of fiding one? 
> 
> And the plato software? (slim I guess...)
> 

Check out  http://thinkofit.com/plato/dwplato.htm

I think many if not most CDC Cybers were rented, so probably went 
back to CDC for disposal. We Ran NOS and NOS/VE operating systems
at the University of Minnesota for a long time, and MECC had a
smaller Cyber to run all the terminals spread across the state
of Minnesota (High Schools). The MECC system was a major multi-user
gaming system ;)

I only saw real Plato once, from the CDC headquarters in downtown 
Minneapolis. And Avatar was awesome for its time. Heck, it would
still be awesome today. Text-based Mud's havent died yet...

I have one old Plato terminal, one of these days i need to figure
out how to hook it up properly...

-Lawrence LeMay

From dburrows at netpath.net  Thu Oct 19 20:13:35 2000
From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:06 2005
Subject: BA23 w/RA70
Message-ID: <00fd01c03a36$de4e91f0$a652e780@L166>

Yes
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: Gene Buckle <geneb@deltasoft.com>
To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Date: Thursday, October 19, 2000 2:33 PM
Subject: Re: BA23 w/RA70


>Then the PDP-11/73 I've got is 22 bit?  (I *think* it's a 73)
>
>g.
>
>
>On Thu, 19 Oct 2000, Daniel T. Burrows wrote:
>
>> The BA123 is 22 bit.  I use one for a test bed and always keep a spare as
I
>> run it with the covers off and have fried a few power supplies over the
>> years.  The fans just don't do the job with all the covers off.:(.  The
>> BA123 is much nicer on the hands to swap boards than a BA23.
>> Dan
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Gene Buckle <geneb@deltasoft.com>
>> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
>> Date: Thursday, October 19, 2000 11:03 AM
>> Subject: Re: BA23 w/RA70
>>
>>
>> > >Be very careful with that chassis!  If it was really a MicroPDP, it
will
>> > >have an 18 bit qbus backplane in it.  It will _destroy_ 22 bit qbus
>> boards
>> > >since there are power pins on the 18 bit bus that mate to data pins on
>> the
>> > >22 bit bus.
>> > >
>> > >Then again, my memory may be completely broken and I've got it all
wrong.
>> > :)
>> > >
>> > >g.
>> >
>> > I think you are remembering the BA11S and others.  All the BA23's I
have
>> had
>> > and seen have all had 22 bit backplanes.  ( I have at least 15 BA23's
at
>> the
>> > moment.)
>>
>> I think I was thinking of the BA123 I've got that IS a uPDP-11.  (full of
>> boards too *sigh*)
>>
>> g.
>>
>>
>>


From lemay at cs.umn.edu  Thu Oct 19 21:01:43 2000
From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:06 2005
Subject: Who remembers CDC Plato?...run it again on a cyber at home...could
 it be  done?
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLGPCOLFICAHOHKHLOEFDCCAA.rickb@bensene.com> from Rick Bensene
 at "Oct 19, 2000 06:07:52 pm"
Message-ID: <200010200201.VAA08587@caesar.cs.umn.edu>

  http://freenet.msp.mn.us/~drwool/dwplato.html

  http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~sinder/novanet/ozzie.html

And if you have Java, and a login account, this link (in 1997)
would have connected you to Plato (now called NOVAnet). 

  http://avenir.cso.uiuc.edu/NN.html



From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Thu Oct 19 21:24:23 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:06 2005
Subject: Enough already! (was: Re: MS Laugh-In)
Message-ID: <016601c03a3d$36118db0$ba789a8d@ajp166>

From: Tim Harrison <harrison@timharrison.com>


>Sellam Ismail wrote:
>
>> This is the second reference I've seen this week to complaining about
>> Linux crashing.  I find this to be ludicrous.
>
>I don't.  I've been using Linux since the early 1.x kernels.  I've found
>it to crash quite often.  If you do certain things to prevent that, it
>crashes *MUCH* less.  Linux is a great server, as long as it does a
>specific task, and that's it.  If you make it do too much, it starts to
>suck.  That's where Solaris blows it off the map.


For stability FreeBSD, for apps and a more user friendly interface
Caldara.  I have mixed feelings with Linux, one is the many flavors
that make them somewhat distinct and my general feeling of
disinterest in it save for it works well for the price.  It's been my
expereince that correctly set up it's very good, and poorly set up
it's about the same as winders.  The upside on linux is that the
box is open and you can look if you care to.  Winders, is not open
but that does not preclude a black box approach to working with it
and even tuning it.  A well thought out winders system can work
well ,even if the idea of planning out winders may seem like an
oxymoron.

>Not so.  Ever just clicked repeatedly on the back arrow in Netscape
>4.75?  If you hit one of those pages that won't let you use the Back


My solution to NS4.75 is not to use it!  4.08 is lighter and far more
stable.

>not to.  Why would you make this guy feel stupid for trying out Linux?
>You should be praising him, and helping him along when he has problems.


This is true for Windows too.  Or CP/M, PICK, Ultrix ....

>And to the original poster, my apologies for you having to endure this
>tirade.  I applaud your efforts, and your willingness to tinker, and
>compare, and decide for yourself.


Like everything if I could have an OS per task or project I'd use
many if they worked and played well with each other or shared
a common platform.  Like I said Some flavor of unix in the back
room does work, for the desk where people have to be trained
and do real work W9x works.  There are projects I'd love to have
VMS for but, it's not cheap (commercial use).    Then again
I've scorned PC hardware for years as flakey at best till I started
seriously using it and building decent systems even if they
aren't cutting edge.  Going in with attitude generally looses.


Allison


From harrison at timharrison.com  Thu Oct 19 21:40:05 2000
From: harrison at timharrison.com (Tim Harrison)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:06 2005
Subject: Enough already! (was: Re: MS Laugh-In)
References: <MPBBIHIJJHCCOBHIHBAJEEFJMLAB.ernestls@home.com>
Message-ID: <39EFB085.30D4CF7A@timharrison.com>

Ernest wrote:

> and now I understand that no computer, or OS can be all things to everyone, > and nothing that we create is

I agree with Jeff Worley.  Let's all go back to using OS/2, and our
problems will be solved. :) 

I have the sudden urge to reinstall a box. :)

-- 


Tim Harrison
Network Engineer
harrison@timharrison.com
http://www.networklevel.com/

From jhfine at idirect.com  Thu Oct 19 22:24:16 2000
From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:06 2005
Subject: MS Laugh-In
References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB22C@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>
Message-ID: <39EFBADF.8AA56D6@idirect.com>

>Douglas Quebbeman wrote:

> > I'm told that the principal difference between W98SE and ME is that you
> > can't install ME without first registering it.  I haven't tried it, so I
> > don't know whether that's really the case, but . . .
> They've supposedly added this now to Office 2000; if you skip the
> registration,
> it launches 50 times, then quits working.
> And of course, if you complete the online registration, it "phones home".
> Now, what if you have neither a modem nor other network connection?
> I wonder if it allows the "print out form and mail in" registration.
> If so, that's one way to skin a fat cat... (not that I'm suggesting
> piracy, just suggesting not going along with the flow).

Jerome Fine replies:

I thought I might as well continue this line of thought - I  DON'T  HAVE  A
PRINTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Can I mail in the monitor screen?


From foo at siconic.com  Thu Oct 19 21:25:21 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:06 2005
Subject: Enough already! (was: Re: MS Laugh-In)
In-Reply-To: <l0310280ab6154189ed3c@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010191925060.17122-100000@siconic.com>

On Thu, 19 Oct 2000, Mike Ford wrote:

> Also though unrelated in my opinion I refuse to grow up.

I don't mind growing up.  I just refuse to mature ;)

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From foo at siconic.com  Thu Oct 19 21:33:45 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:06 2005
Subject: Who remembers CDC Plato?...run it again on a cyber at home...could
 it be  done?
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLGPCOLFICAHOHKHLOEFDCCAA.rickb@bensene.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010191932150.17141-100000@siconic.com>

On Thu, 19 Oct 2000, Rick Bensene wrote:

> Even if you could find one in storage somewhere (it'd have to be a pretty
> good-sized warehouse!) it'd be a major operation just to move the machine.
> Plus, once you got it to your house, not likely you'd have any place
> to put it!  Not the kind of machine you can set up out in the garage.
> Then...even if you had a place to put it, getting the 400Hz 208V
> is going to be a challenge...probably draws some massive load.  Don't
> know what the current loading was

A tantalizing tip: we're planning to have a working Cyber 960 at VCF 2.0e
(not on site but tours will be arranged to the warehouse of the lunatic
who is going to get it running again).

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From foo at siconic.com  Thu Oct 19 21:36:13 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:06 2005
Subject: Enough already! (was: Re: MS Laugh-In)
In-Reply-To: <MPBBIHIJJHCCOBHIHBAJEEFJMLAB.ernestls@home.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010191934530.17141-100000@siconic.com>

On Thu, 19 Oct 2000, Ernest wrote:

> I humbly apologize for so deeply, deeply hurting you, Sellam, with my

Thanks.  Now apologize for annoying me.

> Life goes on, Sellam, and someday you'll look back at this and think,
> "Gosh, maybe I over reacted just a little bit," and that's OK. We all
> grow up at our own pace.

Mmmmm, probably not.

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From vcf at siconic.com  Thu Oct 19 22:10:01 2000
From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:06 2005
Subject: Donate complete Apple II sys? (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010192009290.17164-100000@siconic.com>


Complete Apple //e system up for grabs.  Please contact original sender.

Reply-To: goldman@martnet.com


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 20:58:15 -0400
From: Jim Goldman <goldman@martnet.com>
To: Vintage Computer Festival <vcf@siconic.com>
Subject: Re: Donate complete Apple II sys?

Hi, Man of Intrigue.

Sorry for the delay responding.
It's a //e with the extra memory card to 128K.
I traded my ][+ for it shortly after the //e became
available. 

It's about 20 miles from Philadelphia.

-Jim

At 06:18 PM 10/16/00 -0700, you wrote:
>On Mon, 16 Oct 2000, Jim Goldman wrote:
>
>>  I would like to donate a complete Apple II system
>> including disks, modem, monitors, joystick, paddles,
>> books, software... the works. And it works.


Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org



From aw288 at osfn.org  Thu Oct 19 23:14:49 2000
From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:06 2005
Subject: October RCS/RI open house
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.1001020000550.9956E-100000@osfn.org>

I am sorry for the late reminder, but...

It's VAX month!

This Saturday, the 21st (only a day away!) We will be celebrating the 20th
birthday of the VAX-11/750, and will be running an early example of the
machine, running an early version of VMS (3.0, I think). We will likely
also have some smaller VAXen running as well, plus two larger systems on
static display (Intergraph 8550 and VAX 6220). 

We are in downtown Providence, RI. For directions, see our page at:

http://www.osfn.org/rcs/directions.html

Someone should be around the Mill starting around 10 or 11, and we will 
likely be there all day and into the night, with a break for dinner 
around 6.

We will also be purging some of our leftovers (micros, mostly) from our
Flea Market last month - prices range from cheap to free (with just about
everything being free at the end of the day!). 

See you there...

William Donzelli
aw288@osfn.org 

From wpfulmor at dimensional.com  Fri Oct 20 00:12:03 2000
From: wpfulmor at dimensional.com (William Fulmor)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:06 2005
Subject: MMJ Info
In-Reply-To: <39EF95C1.39C1BFB1@idirect.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.4.10.10010192207340.27771-100000@flatland.dimensional.com>

On Thu, 19 Oct 2000, Jerome Fine wrote:

[...]

> The
> key point is to attempt to become independent of the DEC "funny" offset
> within the first cable connected to the VT320.  The annoying part is that
> I have a number of RJ11 to DB25 convertors without the "funny" DEC
> offset plus a small amount of 6 and 8 wire cable that I can't use since
> I first have to overcome the "funny" DEC offset.

The following took less than 15 minutes (testing included):

Using a utility knife or small diagonal wire cutters, cut the retainer
clip portion from an RJ11.  Just cut the thin springy portion.

Look carefully at the remaining portion of the RJ11.  Name the side with
the contacts the 'bottom'.  You will see that the 'top' has a ridge of
plastic at the front edge protruding above the flat surface of the 'top'.
The ridge is perhaps 1/16 inch, or less, high.

Look at the opening of the MMJ, with the MMJ oriented with the contacts on
the 'bottom'.  You will see that the plastic ridge on the RJ11 will
conflict with the 'ceiling' of the MMJ, but only for a length of
approximately 1/16 inch on the right-hand corner of the ridge.

Using a small, not too coarse file (in a pinch, a nail file would probably
work), file down approximately 1/16 inch of the right-hand coner of the
ridge on the RJ11.  As your file approaches the body of of the RJ11,
switch to cut - and - fit mode.

When the RJ11 fits into the MMJ, stop filing.

I did this to an RJ11 crimped to a 6 conductor lead.  I achieved a snug
fit which, while not locked in place, will probably stay mated to the
HB571-C into which it was inserted for any reasonable use.  The HB571-C is
covered in a sort of rubberized plastic shell which might provide more
friction than a harder plastic on, say, a terminal.

I tested the continuity of the connections for each of the 6 conductors in
the lead.  Each conductor mapped to one of pins 2,3,6, or 20 of the
HB571-C; two conductors mapped to pin 7 (assuming I counted the *&^%@#%
pins right).  Factory prepared 6 conductor leads with crimped RJ11
connectors are available in almost any length with the conductors in
either 'rolled' or not 'rolled' configuration.

I have not tried to use this to connect any equipment.

YMMV, but it should be a cheap way to defeat this particular DECism.

Bill


From cem14 at cornell.edu  Fri Oct 20 06:01:08 2000
From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:06 2005
Subject: Mac II question
In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB234@tegntserver.tegjeff
 .com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20001020070108.012f8b6c@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu>


At 05:23 PM 10/19/00 -0400, you wrote:
> 
>> There is also one 72 pin SIMM socket in the mainboard next to the
>> cache slot (which is where the accelerator goes).  I wonder what it is
>> for...
>
>It was meant to be used for ROM upgrades, but Apple never issued any.
>
>-dq

Oh, so that was it.  Thanks for the info!

One thing that I am wondering is how you expanded the memory beyond
32 MB.  Did Apple sell >4MB 30pin SIMMS?  If there are any, they must
be incredibly rare... I've never even _heard_ of them.

Carlos.


From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us  Fri Oct 20 07:29:33 2000
From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:06 2005
Subject: pdp11
In-Reply-To: <39EB00B0.26035BD7@groton.pfizer.com>
References: <39EB00B0.26035BD7@groton.pfizer.com>
Message-ID: <v04210101b615eb23530f@[157.178.130.128]>

>Hi:
>My company has a working pdp11 with disk drives and interface boards. It
>is now moving offline and to the disposition process. I believe that it
>will be moved to the trash unless someone will take it. We can not
>assume any responsibility for transportation but would be glad ot donate
>the pdp to a good cause.
>
>carter courtney

Where is it?

What kind of pdp system?

thanks.

-Bob

Bob Brown
Saved by grace
Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown

From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Fri Oct 20 07:45:49 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:06 2005
Subject: Enough already! (was: Re: MS Laugh-In)
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB23D@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>

> I'm running at work w95osr2 with aha2906 on a scanner for one box and my
> desktop is a full house K2-350 (make sure you have the K2 patch) with
> CDburner sound and all.  It's a configuration issue usually PLUG and 
> PRAY trying to sort out resources.

And make sure you don't install the K2 patch on a Pentium-II!

> >There will always be some OS rivalry based on XenoOSphobia.  But,
> >most people who hate windows are not unfamiliar with it--rather,
> >they hate it because they are all too familiar with it.
> 
> ;)  W95 is one of those.  I use it or the like and kind as the world
> has gone that way and compatability is important.  I'm not satisfied
> after working with TOPS-10, CP/M, RT11, RSTS and VMS as  my
> models of what can or should be.  Robustness is something I prize
> as well as somthing well known flawed or not.

Agreed... however, with Windows 2000, I'm starting to feel like I'm
actually working with something that's as professional and robust as
the mainframe/mini OSes of my halcyon youth.

I just wish I couls find someone sufficiently familiar with its more
sophisticated features that I could bounce some (probably stupid)
questions off of...

regards,
-dq

From vaxman at uswest.net  Fri Oct 20 07:39:36 2000
From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:06 2005
Subject: Vax 11 -7/80 (plus equipment)
In-Reply-To: <13588649564.19.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1001020063802.6750C-100000@oldy.crwolff.com>


Hi Daniel,

If I win this thing, would you be willing to sell your spares to me as
I drive by? North from Indianapolis to Peoria, then west to Denver only
adds 100 miles or so...

Thanks,
clint


On Thu, 19 Oct 2000, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote:

> I'm in Peoria, IL...  I have spares for an 11/780 and such.  I might be able
> to clear some room for it if nobody else can take it; let me know if it's
> in danger of going to the dumpster.
> 
> Although I'd much rather have a KS10... ^_^
> -------
> 
> 


From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Fri Oct 20 07:50:58 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:06 2005
Subject: MS Laugh-In
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB23E@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>

> This is a rampent disease out there, the idea that network access
> is fast and always there means they (VENDORs) can skip docs,
>  final patches, updates by mail or a lot of other things we pay for.
> I had to camp on Allaire to send a CD as they wanted me to
> download the eval version of  their CF4.51product, it's way to
> big for a modem, even at 56k.  HP dumped STAC (or did STAC
> fail?) and I find out when the backups on the T20I travan failed.
> Find that on the web site... nope.  WE BUY this crap, that why
> it is pandered.

I subscribe to a package of Windows add-ons called Object Desktop
from a company called Stardock (a former OS/2 ISV), and they are
using the Internet as delivery vehicle. Since these components
tend to be relatively small, the model works. OTOH, the main
reason I'm not using IE 5.5 is that if Microsoft doesn't have
enough faith in the product to burn it onto a CD, I'm sure not
spending my limited bandwidth downloading it.

I did, however, download a 43MB demo (SurfScout) via our V.90
link a few days ago. As more sites implement restartable down-
loads, it's not so bad...

But I'm in basic agreement with you.

regards,
-dq

From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Fri Oct 20 07:54:45 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:06 2005
Subject: Enough already! (was: Re: MS Laugh-In)
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB23F@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>


> I had the same problem on my servers, killed the audio in the bios
> and it persisted.  The 4mb Trident AGP video driver was bad news.

I used to like Trident, but I consider them foul now, and have
exorcised them from almost every machine that had them.

> The audio and video drivers in NT4 live in ring zero (low protection)
> to make the gamers happy.  NT3.51 didn't do this and was far less
> prone.  Better video and audio drivers often solve the problem.

MS has implemented something they call the MHQL for testing
drivers (if submitted) for Windows 2000; this contributes 
greatly to its stability. I haven't seen a BSOD yet, although
I had to remove NAI VirusScan, as it caused spontaneous reboots
upon logon.

> My solution is keep the games, audio and high end video off the
> NT box I want it robust.  Put those things on a W9x crate and
> play there.

Again, you really ought to try getting a copy of Win2k, at least
for your workstation, so you can evaluate it. I think you'll be 
surprised and pleased.

-dq

From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Fri Oct 20 08:08:04 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:06 2005
Subject: Who remembers CDC Plato?...run it again on a cyber at home...
	could it be  done?
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB240@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>

> Now I never the saw the hardware running Plato. I only know 
> that it used a CDC cyber. So I am thinking...
> 
> What Cyber ran plato? 

Well, it would run on anything from a CDC 6600 up to (I think)
the Cyber 850. However, Northwestern University created a Plato
clone, also using the Tutor language, that could handle more
terminal types than the classic Halloween terminal.

I used to have the source code (in COMPASS) for MultiTutor...
hopefully, the ex-so didn't trash it in '81 when she trashed
a bunch of my stuff; it may be in the possession of a comrade.

> How big were they?(I heard of huge! Did not find any pics on the
> internet of one...)

Look for CDC / Control Data instead... here's a link to a small
pic of a Cyber 73:

	http://members.iglou.com/dougq/cyber73.gif

> What are my chances of fiding one? 

CDC 6600 Serial Number 1, formerly owned by the Lawrence Livermore
Labs, is now at the Computer Museum of History (or is that Computer
History Musem) at Moffet Field in Kalifornia.

Syntegra (the remnants of CDC) are still supporting NOS, NOS/BE, and
NOS/VE, so I'm sure they've got one of the later Cybers running.

> And the plato software? (slim I guess...)

Among other platforms, Plato was ported to the TI99/A. 
 
> If I remember well, there was a emulator for the IBMPC to run a plato
> terminal....no touch screen but still...anybody remember this?...that
> could save me from having to look for an old "plasma" terminal like they
> called them back then...

Well, I want one of the Halloween terminals (called that because the
plasma display was orange on black) anyway, just to have.

There have been a few incomplete attempts at starting an emulator for
the CDC/Cyber machines... so far, they implement only the 60-bit modes
of the early machines and not the later 64-bit mode needed to run NOS/VE.

But someone needs to bring these disparate efforts together. This one 
will be *much* easier to do than the Multics emulator we often talk
about on alt.multics.org.

You might also post question in the USENET newsgroup comp.sys.cdc;
it hasn't seen much activity lately, so go light a fire!

regards,
-dq
 

From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Fri Oct 20 08:30:03 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:06 2005
Subject: Who remembers CDC Plato?...run it again on a cyber at home...
	could it be  done?
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB241@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>


> The OS that ran on the system was called KRONOS.  It was a multi-user
> multi-executive OS that did both interactive and batch processing.  There
> were a number of RJE stations around the campus that had punch card
> readers and printers that users could submit their F77 (Fortran 77)
> and PASCAL jobs to remotely.

How pleasant to find someone else who worked at a Kronos site
instead of the more usual SCOPE sites. We had Kronos at IU on
a CDC 6600/Cyber 174 Multi-Mainframe system (using some code
from Cambridge University and some Z-80 based disk controllers
designed by a guy named Steel at Purdue).

> > What are my chances of fiding one?
> 
> Next to nil, I would guess.  They were loaded with precious metals (gold!)
> and lots of good scrap metal too.  The scrappers loved 'em.

There are still some 64-bit era Cybers in service; Syntegra
(the remnants of CDC) still support NOS (nee Kronos), NOS/BE
(nee SCOPE), and NOS/VE (the 64-bit OS).

-dq

From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Fri Oct 20 08:32:16 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:06 2005
Subject: MS Laugh-In
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB242@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>

> Jerome Fine replies:
> 
> I thought I might as well continue this line of thought - I  
> DON'T  HAVE  A
> PRINTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> Can I mail in the monitor screen?

ROFL!

From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Fri Oct 20 08:37:48 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:06 2005
Subject: Mac II question
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB243@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>


> At 05:23 PM 10/19/00 -0400, you wrote:
> > 
> >> There is also one 72 pin SIMM socket in the mainboard next to the
> >> cache slot (which is where the accelerator goes).  I 
> wonder what it is
> >> for...
> >
> >It was meant to be used for ROM upgrades, but Apple never issued any.
> >
> >-dq
> 
> Oh, so that was it.  Thanks for the info!
> 
> One thing that I am wondering is how you expanded the memory beyond
> 32 MB.  Did Apple sell >4MB 30pin SIMMS?  If there are any, they must
> be incredibly rare... I've never even _heard_ of them.

The Mac IIci was designed to use either parity or non-parity simms...
the need for parity simms was for A/UX, Apple's version of Unix.

So any set of 4 16MB 30-pin SIMMs from a PC will work just fine.

There may be a jumper on the MB for this- can't recall.

regards,
-dq

From kla at helios.augustana.edu  Fri Oct 20 08:59:07 2000
From: kla at helios.augustana.edu (Kevin L. Anderson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: Operating systems / Best in "isolation"
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1001020083812.3027A-100000@helios.augustana.edu>

I don't know how to state this, so I will blunder in --

I have been trying to follow this wide-ranging discussions
about the woes of Microsoft products, of Linux, and so on.

This may sound anti-Internet, but I see two themes in the
back of these discussions --

1.  The need to be isolated

2.  consumerism (or vender vs. user choice)

For the first, with computers so widespread and the ease
to communicate between users so prevalent these days, maybe
we need the exact opposite -- for each of us to be isolated
from one another and not see the other's toys.  As I think
Ernest recently said, he was happy with his first Commodore 64
until someone told him otherwise.  If we would instead just
cherish what we have, and <grin> otherwise sit in Dilbert-like
mini-cubicles without the ability to see your neighbor,
then we wouldn't know what we are missing...

(For you software developers and hardware techs of yore --
did you complain about the software and hardware 20 years
ago in the same fashion as I hear complaining today?  I suspect
so, it is just that we didn't hear it so often as we were
isolated.  But then again I can dream that it was better then...)

For the second, I would like to think that our need to upgrade
should be driven by *our* needs to fix something.  I dislike it 
when the direction comes from the other end -- that is from the 
vender or developer telling me I must upgrade and/or replace something.
When the needs are not truly user driven, then we are in a
marketing situation only, and you know the group of people
that is intended to benefit from that...it doesn't include me.

I am not exactly thrilled with Microsoft products, and would
rather not buy them.  But then again BSD won't serve my family's
needs.  Just what is available as a viable alternative for the
"average Joe"?  Not much from what I can see.  So maybe we shouldn't
be using computers -- they aren't essential, after all <grin> --
societies flourished for many centuries before the present (and
there is no promise that this society won't "die" just like others
in the past have).

Just pondering on a Friday -- Luddism and communism in the 
morning.  Grins..
Have a good weekend everyone and simmer down.

Cheers/TTFN,
Kevin Anderson, Bismarck, North Dakota (where I can see the frontier,
and there are unfortunately no PDP 8s or 11s in sight....)
home:  K9IUA@juno.com
alt:  kla@helios.augustana.edu



From geneb at deltasoft.com  Fri Oct 20 09:01:08 2000
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: Enough already! (was: Re: MS Laugh-In)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010191934530.17141-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010200700210.7363-100000@war.deltasoft.com>

> On Thu, 19 Oct 2000, Ernest wrote:
> 
> > I humbly apologize for so deeply, deeply hurting you, Sellam, with my
> 
> Thanks.  Now apologize for annoying me.
> 
> > Life goes on, Sellam, and someday you'll look back at this and think,
> > "Gosh, maybe I over reacted just a little bit," and that's OK. We all
> > grow up at our own pace.
> 
> Mmmmm, probably not.
> 

Sellam, why do I have the strongest feeling that you're either a sysadmin
or a recovering sysadmin? *grin*

g.



From rmeenaks at olf.com  Fri Oct 20 09:44:08 2000
From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: Idiotic people who do not know the value of classic equipment
Message-ID: <39F05A38.7080604@olf.com>

Hi,

A friend of mine works for a robotics engineering firm who were heavy 
users of transputers.  Well, the moved away from transputers a while 
back and are using PCs to do all their vision calculations, etc.  I 
asked him to hold on to all of the unwanted transputer equipment (T801 
trams with 4Megs of memory, B008s, PowerPC Trams, etc, etc) and he 
agreed to it.  Well, when he was on vacation, the company decided to 
clean up their old equipment and throw away all of their so-called 
junk.  They threw away graphics board that were brand-new still in the 
box, tons of UPSs still new, i860 processors, C004s, trams, tram boards, 
etc, etc.  All really good and quite expensive stuff.  He promised me he 
will look for other transputer stuff that may be lying around after the 
cleanup, but this really really BITES!

Ram


From THETechnoid at home.com  Fri Oct 20 09:45:41 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: Operating systems / Best in "isolation"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1001020083812.3027A-100000@helios.augustana.edu>
Message-ID: <20001020144314.FUWN16989.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

In <Pine.GSO.3.96.1001020083812.3027A-100000@helios.augustana.edu>, on
10/20/00 
   at 10:45 AM, "Kevin L. Anderson" <kla@helios.augustana.edu> said:

>For the first, with computers so widespread and the ease
>to communicate between users so prevalent these days, maybe
>we need the exact opposite -- for each of us to be isolated
>from one another and not see the other's toys.  As I think
>Ernest recently said, he was happy with his first Commodore 64 until
>someone told him otherwise.  If we would instead just cherish what we
>have, and <grin> otherwise sit in Dilbert-like mini-cubicles without the
>ability to see your neighbor,
>then we wouldn't know what we are missing...

That is really true.  Remember the Commodore vs Atari 8-bit wars back
when? Apple was in it too but didn't have the graphics or sound to stand
up. I did envy thier internal expandability though.  

>I am not exactly thrilled with Microsoft products, and would rather not
>buy them.  But then again BSD won't serve my family's needs.  Just what
>is available as a viable alternative for the "average Joe"?  Not much

OS/2 Warp is the only other PC operating system that is truely easy to use
for the neophyte. It has the functionality of Unix/Linux (Posix compliance
too!) and a beautiful GUI that shames any other attempts I've seen.  MS
crushed it on the desktop useing FUD tactics, outright threats to vendors,
and lies about it's forthcoming Win95 operating system. In 95', Win95 sold
six million Warp Connect seats after the netadmins of the world finally
got a copy and found the MS product wanting.

My wife uses Warp at home and likes it.  If it ran Shockwave that would be
so much the better though. We did just get a Flash plugin.  Still can't
watch new episodes of RADISKULL though. "I am Radiskull.  I will kill you
all."

Jeff


-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From tarsi at binhost.com  Fri Oct 20 09:47:02 2000
From: tarsi at binhost.com (Tarsi)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: Operating systems / Best in "isolation"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1001020083812.3027A-100000@helios.augustana.
 edu>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001020094700.009e7cd0@binhost.com>

At 08:59 AM 10/20/00 -0500, you wrote:
>I don't know how to state this, so I will blunder in --
>
>I have been trying to follow this wide-ranging discussions
>about the woes of Microsoft products, of Linux, and so on.
>
>This may sound anti-Internet, but I see two themes in the
>back of these discussions --
>
>1.  The need to be isolated
>
>2.  consumerism (or vender vs. user choice)
>
>For the first, with computers so widespread and the ease
>to communicate between users so prevalent these days, maybe
>we need the exact opposite -- for each of us to be isolated
>from one another and not see the other's toys.  As I think
>Ernest recently said, he was happy with his first Commodore 64
>until someone told him otherwise.  If we would instead just
>cherish what we have, and <grin> otherwise sit in Dilbert-like
>mini-cubicles without the ability to see your neighbor,
>then we wouldn't know what we are missing...
>
>(For you software developers and hardware techs of yore --
>did you complain about the software and hardware 20 years
>ago in the same fashion as I hear complaining today?  I suspect
>so, it is just that we didn't hear it so often as we were
>isolated.  But then again I can dream that it was better then...)
>
>For the second, I would like to think that our need to upgrade
>should be driven by *our* needs to fix something.  I dislike it
>when the direction comes from the other end -- that is from the
>vender or developer telling me I must upgrade and/or replace something.
>When the needs are not truly user driven, then we are in a
>marketing situation only, and you know the group of people
>that is intended to benefit from that...it doesn't include me.
>
>I am not exactly thrilled with Microsoft products, and would
>rather not buy them.  But then again BSD won't serve my family's
>needs.  Just what is available as a viable alternative for the
>"average Joe"?  Not much from what I can see.  So maybe we shouldn't
>be using computers -- they aren't essential, after all <grin> --
>societies flourished for many centuries before the present (and
>there is no promise that this society won't "die" just like others
>in the past have).
>
>Just pondering on a Friday -- Luddism and communism in the
>morning.  Grins..
>Have a good weekend everyone and simmer down.
>
>Cheers/TTFN,
>Kevin Anderson, Bismarck, North Dakota (where I can see the frontier,
>and there are unfortunately no PDP 8s or 11s in sight....)
>home:  K9IUA@juno.com
>alt:  kla@helios.augustana.edu


From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Fri Oct 20 09:46:20 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: Operating systems / Best in "isolation"
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB245@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>


> For the first, with computers so widespread and the ease
> to communicate between users so prevalent these days, maybe
> we need the exact opposite -- for each of us to be isolated
> from one another and not see the other's toys.  As I think
> Ernest recently said, he was happy with his first Commodore 64
> until someone told him otherwise.  If we would instead just
> cherish what we have, and <grin> otherwise sit in Dilbert-like
> mini-cubicles without the ability to see your neighbor,
> then we wouldn't know what we are missing...

I don't think any of us really want to be isolated, we
just don't want to suffer from undesirable connectivity.

> (For you software developers and hardware techs of yore --
> did you complain about the software and hardware 20 years
> ago in the same fashion as I hear complaining today?  I suspect
> so, it is just that we didn't hear it so often as we were
> isolated.  But then again I can dream that it was better then...)

20 years ago, I was a systems programmer on a pair of Prime
minis. As with most Prime sites in those days, we had the
source code to every release of Primos (the OS) that came
out, and we had things we thought we could improve on, and
did. Since we could just get in there and change it, we didn't
think to complain.

That included having the source code to the compilers
(except now that I think of it, the COBOL compiler), so
we could at least find out *why* what we were trying to do
didn't work.

Prior to that, while in college, I had access to the source
code for the CDC Kronos OS, and most of its compilers. I didn't
have similar access on the DEC-10 or the IBM 370/158 AP, but
on the DEC-10, we had RWATCH in source code form, which let
us do almost anything the system operator could do.

> For the second, I would like to think that our need to upgrade
> should be driven by *our* needs to fix something.  I dislike it 
> when the direction comes from the other end -- that is from the 
> vender or developer telling me I must upgrade and/or replace 
> something.

Hey, that's called supply-side economics, supposedly a Good Thing.

;-)

-dq

From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Fri Oct 20 09:47:15 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: Enough already! (was: Re: MS Laugh-In)
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB246@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>


> > On Thu, 19 Oct 2000, Ernest wrote:
> > 
> > > I humbly apologize for so deeply, deeply hurting you, Sellam, with my
> > 
> > Thanks.  Now apologize for annoying me.
> > 
> > > Life goes on, Sellam, and someday you'll look back at this and think,
> > > "Gosh, maybe I over reacted just a little bit," and that's OK. We all
> > > grow up at our own pace.
> > 
> > Mmmmm, probably not.
> > 
> 
> Sellam, why do I have the strongest feeling that you're either a sysadmin
> or a recovering sysadmin? *grin*

Hey!

Some of us resemble that remark...

;-)

-dq

From tarsi at binhost.com  Fri Oct 20 09:53:58 2000
From: tarsi at binhost.com (Tarsi)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: OS for AT&T 6300
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1001020083812.3027A-100000@helios.augustana.
 edu>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001020094720.009edb50@binhost.com>

Well, an update on my AT&T 6300.

First of all, thank you VERY much to everyone who responded with 
information on this little machine.  It's quite fun.  The machine (now 
named "Jon") has a new low-level formatted drive (the debug command was 
g=c800:5, fyi) and is humming along merrily on MSDOS 6.22.  Unfortunately, 
my backup of the hard drive before format resulted in a bad backup, so I'm 
working to restore that but doubt I will be able to.

On that note, what sort of OS do you recommend I run on it?  Right now, I'm 
running DOS 6.22 and the program Conex which allows me to use it as a 
terminal for my Linux box via a serial cable.

Is there a UNIX-ish type OS I could run?  If so, does anyone have a copy to 
sell me?  I thought about looking for an 8-bit ethernet card so I can get 
it online, but not sure if it is worth it...well, it's always worth it to 
get it online, but... :)

Thanks, again, for all your help.

Tarsi
210


From THETechnoid at home.com  Fri Oct 20 09:53:53 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: Who remembers CDC Plato?
In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB241@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>
Message-ID: <20001020145851.GQQT16989.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

I remember PLATO. I was a teenager sharing an apartment with Kenny Sallot
(The Timelord of Atari 8-bit Tardis BBS fame), and Fred xxxx who had a
nifty NEC CP/M machine.

Fred and I spent a stoned afternoon scouring Downtown Miami for a Plato
cart for my Atari.  He pawned his watch to get it.

It was the first graphical 'web' interface I had ever seen. It was really
impressive for the time.  The first if you don't count VIEWTRON..... ;-O

Regards,

Jeff

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From jdarren at ala.net  Fri Oct 20 10:07:58 2000
From: jdarren at ala.net (J. Darren Peterson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: Honeywell and other books for sale
Message-ID: <000501c03aa7$8a32ac20$b51b6bce@oemcomputer>

all original vendor manuals in good shape.  $12 each, plus shipping.

1. Honeywell Series 16 Software - Program Interrupt Structure, 06/1971

2. Honeywell System 700 Software - Verification Service Library, 03/1972

3. Honeywell Series 16 Software - O16-XREF, SSUP, And MAC Source Language
    Processors

4. Honeywell Wirelist - 516 Memory, 1974

5. Honeywell Wirelist - Series 16 IOBCU, 1974

6. Honeywell Series 16 Hardware Documentation - DDP-516 Memory Expansion,
Models
   516-05/06, Instruction Manual, 1973

7. Honeywell Wirelist - 516-20 Direct Multplex Control, 1974

8. Honeywell Wirelist - X5B Mainframe, 1974

9. Honeywell Series 200 214-1/214-2 Card Reader/Punch Theory of Operation
Manual, 1968

10. Teletype Model 35 ASR Technical Manual, 1971


From THETechnoid at home.com  Fri Oct 20 10:13:37 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: MS Laugh-In
In-Reply-To: <001f01c039fd$92223b80$0500fea9@winbook>
Message-ID: <20001020150529.HAKY16989.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

In <001f01c039fd$92223b80$0500fea9@winbook>, on 10/20/00 
   at 11:13 AM, "Richard Erlacher" <richard@idcomm.com> said:

>> >WinBlow Me is no longer Beta?

If it did, I'd buy it. ;-)

Jeff
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com  Fri Oct 20 10:10:21 2000
From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: Idiotic people who do not know the value of classic equipment
In-Reply-To: <39F05A38.7080604@olf.com>
Message-ID: <000001c03aa7$de1213d0$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>

> Ram's big cleanup...

I worked probably double shift for two weeks catching
the overflow last year at my company.  Glad to know
it wasn't for nothing.  The great bulk made it into
low income classrooms.

John A.
Idiot who knows.
And there wasn't a single DEC thing in the lot.


From jdarren at ala.net  Fri Oct 20 10:21:55 2000
From: jdarren at ala.net (J. Darren Peterson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: Varian 620/L-100 Maintenance Manual for sale
Message-ID: <000d01c03aa9$7c041420$d01b6bce@oemcomputer>

original vendor (1973) issue in near-unused condition. $40 plus preferred
shipping.

Chapters
----------
1. Introduction
1-1. specifications
1-2. technical manuals

2. Installation
2-1. system layout and planning
2-2. physical description
2-3. system interconnection
2-4. system interrupt priority

3. Operation
3-1. control panel operation
3-2. manual operations
3-3. preliminary operating procedures

4. CPU
4-1. functional description
4-2. theory of operation
4-3. maintenance

5.Memory
5-1. functional description
5-2. theory of operation
5-3. maintenance

6. DMA Interrupts
6-1. functional description
6-2. interface data
6-3. theory of operation
6-4. maintenance

7. Power Supply
7-1. theory of operation
7-2. maintenance

8. Mnemonics

9. Waveforms

10. Multiply/Divide and Extended Addressing
10-1. introduction
10-2. operation
10-3. theory of operation
10-4. maintenance

plus 8 appendices


From foo at siconic.com  Fri Oct 20 09:37:42 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: Idiotic people who do not know the value of classic equipment
In-Reply-To: <000001c03aa7$de1213d0$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010200732001.17881-100000@siconic.com>

On Fri, 20 Oct 2000, John Allain wrote:

> > Ram's big cleanup...
> 
> I worked probably double shift for two weeks catching
> the overflow last year at my company.  Glad to know
> it wasn't for nothing.  The great bulk made it into
> low income classrooms.

I'm amazed at what perfectly good stuff management sees fit to toss.  When
my company closed the office I worked out of at my last job, my former
boss had the minions throw out all kinds of useful and valuable stuff in
my absence.  I found out about it and ended up spending the evening inside
a grimy dumpster retrieving several thousand dollars of useful equipment.

A lot of it has since served me very well :)

Sorry about your story, Ram.  That bites.

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Fri Oct 20 10:34:31 2000
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: Enough already! (was: Re: MS Laugh-In)
In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB246@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010200828000.7392-100000@war.deltasoft.com>

> > > Mmmmm, probably not.
> > > 
> > 
> > Sellam, why do I have the strongest feeling that you're either a sysadmin
> > or a recovering sysadmin? *grin*
> 
> Hey!
> 
> Some of us resemble that remark...
> 

Well it's one of those "Takes one to know one" kinda things. :)  I'm a
BPFH _and_ a BOFH, so I'm screwed both ways.  I even have my very own
de-commisioned LART - http://deltasoft.fife.wa.us/f15images.html.  I did
find out a while back that for pure motivation, you can't beat an airsoft
M4A1 spitting 500-600 6mm plastic BBs/minute.  Those little fsckers scurry
like mad. *Evil Grin*

g.



From harrison at timharrison.com  Fri Oct 20 10:50:06 2000
From: harrison at timharrison.com (Tim Harrison)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: MS Laugh-In
References: <20001020150529.HAKY16989.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>
Message-ID: <39F069AE.2440E0DC@timharrison.com>

THETechnoid@home.com wrote:

> >> >WinBlow Me is no longer Beta?
> 
> If it did, I'd buy it. ;-)

Wouldn't be worth it, Jeff.  It would make you pay over and over and
over again.

And more likely than not, it would crash before it was done.

<ducking>

-- 


Tim Harrison
Network Engineer
harrison@timharrison.com
http://www.networklevel.com/

From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org  Fri Oct 20 11:04:59 2000
From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: OS for AT&T 6300
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001020094720.009edb50@binhost.com> from Tarsi at "Oct
 20, 2000 09:53:58 am"
Message-ID: <200010201604.e9KG4x312200@bg-tc-ppp601.monmouth.com>

> Is there a UNIX-ish type OS I could run?  If so, does anyone have a copy to 
> sell me?  I thought about looking for an 8-bit ethernet card so I can get 
> it online, but not sure if it is worth it...well, it's always worth it to 
> get it online, but... :)
> 
> Thanks, again, for all your help.
> 
> Tarsi
> 210
> 
> 
> 

Actually, SCO Xenix SysV would work.  I've got the docs and a couple of
sets -- but the install key was lost somewhere.

I couldn't seem to get SCO to put the old install key generator anywhere
or to have them rekey it without serious $$$.

Bill
-- 
bpechter@monmouth.com    | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10  
                         | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2
                         | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour 

From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org  Fri Oct 20 11:15:07 2000
From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: Recovering Sysadmin
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010200700210.7363-100000@war.deltasoft.com> from
 Gene Buckle at "Oct 20, 2000 07:01:08 am"
Message-ID: <200010201615.e9KGF7A12269@bg-tc-ppp601.monmouth.com>

Gene Buckle wrote
> > On Thu, 19 Oct 2000, Ernest wrote:
> > 
> > > I humbly apologize for so deeply, deeply hurting you, Sellam, with my
> > 
> > Thanks.  Now apologize for annoying me.
> > 
> > > Life goes on, Sellam, and someday you'll look back at this and think,
> > > "Gosh, maybe I over reacted just a little bit," and that's OK. We all
> > > grow up at our own pace.
> > 
> > Mmmmm, probably not.
> > 
> 
> Sellam, why do I have the strongest feeling that you're either a sysadmin
> or a recovering sysadmin? *grin*
> 
> g.

There's no such thing as a recovering sysadmin.
It's not like alcoholism... 
It's a fatal disorder... 

One more late night I'm coming home and my wife's gonna kill me...

8-)


Bill
-- 
bpechter@monmouth.com    | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10  
                         | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2
                         | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour 

From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Fri Oct 20 11:09:21 2000
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: forklift rental in San Jose, CA?
In-Reply-To: <39EEC945.CD152F1@rain.org>
Message-ID: <39F08A51.17206.CED518@localhost>

> > Has anyone had experience with forklift rental?  I did a web search
> > and turned up *zero* hits.  From a different rescue operation, it

> You might well find it FAR less expensive to rent a truck with a tailgate at
> your destination and use the rented truck instead of renting a forklift".

For the absolut numbers maybe, but with the forklift, there comes
a driver - and the money you're paying i for his experiance andd
skill. We (Jon Zabolitzky and me) dir the same when we unloaded
the last 'small' shipment (a 20' container) at Jon'S place. Several
hundred dollar just for unloading seams high, but he did handle the
forklift in a way we never could do in 100 years. And dropning a
Rack with DEC disk drives more than 5 ft onto concrete may result
in more than just the need for a head alignment. And it was fast:
After less than two hours the whole job was done, we would have
needed more time. Try to considere this, damaging your nifty new
toy at the end of the journey would nullify all your prior effort.

Gruss
H.

--
VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen
http://www.vintage.org/vcfe
http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

From mmcfadden at cmh.edu  Fri Oct 20 11:50:52 2000
From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: forklift rental in San Jose, CA?
Message-ID: <E7AC96207335D411B1E7009027FC284906BD2B@EXCHANGE2>

Moving large cabinets and racks can be a pain.  One of my friends had RP04's
moved disguised in boxes as a washer and dryer.  I think we all need to
rephrase the problem of moving a computer from lift trucks, hydraulic lift
gates, and cranes to many bodies and a universal solvent, BEER.  

I once saw several doctors, lawyers, teachers, engineers move a large power
boat that was upside down in a yard back into the lake for free beer.  Of
course I moved an entire 20 X 24 roofed boat dock by taking it into small
pieces, carrying it down the hill and assembling it.  

I bet if you placed a case of beer on top of the computer you could find
somebody to move the whole thing.

Mike
mmcfadden@cmh.edu



From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Fri Oct 20 12:03:27 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: Recovering Sysadmin
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB247@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>

> There's no such thing as a recovering sysadmin.
> It's not like alcoholism... 
> It's a fatal disorder... 
> 
> One more late night I'm coming home and my wife's gonna kill me...

Closest comparison I can make is that the dog spends a _long_
time sniffing me each night to see who I am...

-dq

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Fri Oct 20 11:54:29 2000
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: Recovering Sysadmin
In-Reply-To: <200010201615.e9KGF7A12269@bg-tc-ppp601.monmouth.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010200943550.7444-100000@war.deltasoft.com>

> > > > Life goes on, Sellam, and someday you'll look back at this and think,
> > > > "Gosh, maybe I over reacted just a little bit," and that's OK. We all
> > > > grow up at our own pace.
> > > 
> > > Mmmmm, probably not.
> > > 
> > 
> > Sellam, why do I have the strongest feeling that you're either a sysadmin
> > or a recovering sysadmin? *grin*
> > 
> > g.
> 
> There's no such thing as a recovering sysadmin.
> It's not like alcoholism... 
> It's a fatal disorder... 
> 
> One more late night I'm coming home and my wife's gonna kill me...
> 
I got really lucky.  I met my (to be) wife while wearing something like 7
different hats at a startup ISP.  We had a horrid ice storm in 1996 that
did phenominal things to the mains.  She brought me food and quad mochas
for the three days I lived at work feeding generators and doing manual
power load balancing.  "Hey, this UPS is almost charged - *yank* now I can
charge the next one in line...."  Having 2 generators and 8 UPSs made for
an interesting three days.  I had a blast playing Quake on the T1 while
waiting for USWest to un-fsck up the PRI lines we had going into the modem
racks...*sigh*

g.



From epgroot at ucdavis.edu  Fri Oct 20 12:40:22 2000
From: epgroot at ucdavis.edu (Edwin P. Groot)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: Drop the Microsoft & OS Discussion!
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001020104022.007d6180@yellow.ucdavis.edu>

     I vote to drop-kick this weeks discussion/useless rant on Windows and
other OS's and other pokes to list members.
     Get back to you classic computers, VAXen, boxen, whatever-you-have-en,
which this list is meant for!

     Anyone with me on this?
     Edwin

From harrison at timharrison.com  Fri Oct 20 12:46:24 2000
From: harrison at timharrison.com (Tim Harrison)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: Recovering Sysadmin
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010200943550.7444-100000@war.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <39F084F0.FC8A79B1@timharrison.com>

Gene Buckle wrote:

> I got really lucky.  I met my (to be) wife while wearing something like 7
> different hats at a startup ISP.  We had a horrid ice storm in 1996 that

I met mine while I was a senior admin at an ISP in New York.  She was a
friend of someone I had become friends with there (actually, was his
first grrlfriend).  She came to work for the company in billing, and I
spent the first week trying to remember my name.

So, she learned that I was too geek to live, and has set about trying to
domesticate me.  It's caused many a battle.  She understands my desire
to collect computers, but doesn't share the same joy.  In fact, she's
been suggesting I get rid of my PDP-11/34a, after we bought it together,
and she didn't realize how large it was.  There was much rejoicing at
the thought that she would find it interesting learning old technology,
but she lost interest immediately upon seeing a 6' rack being trundled
into the living room.

So, I may be looking to sell/trade a PDP-11/34a, in the Toronto, ON
area, in the very near future. :(

-- 


Tim Harrison
Network Engineer
harrison@timharrison.com
http://www.networklevel.com/

From ss at allegro.com  Fri Oct 20 12:44:25 2000
From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: Looking for: Extended Mass Storage ROM for HP 87
Message-ID: <39F02209.12975.A05195E@localhost>

Hi,

The recent discussions of the HP 8x machines reminded me:
I'm looking for an Extended Mass Storage ROM for 
an HP 87 (and for an HP 85, for that matter).

The part number is:

 HP 00087-15013  Extended Mass Storage ROM for HP-86/87
 HP 00085-15013  Extended Mass Storage ROM for HP-83/85

I could probably find some 8x stuff to trade for one.

thanks,

Stan
Stan Sieler                                           sieler@allegro.com
www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html          www.allegro.com/sieler

From rmeenaks at olf.com  Fri Oct 20 13:25:49 2000
From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: Idiotic people who do not know the value of classic equipment
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010200732001.17881-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <39F08E2D.5090404@olf.com>


The worst thing about this is that I cant even dumpster dive as they do 
a lot of different government contracts.  The whole area is pretty much 
off limits.  If I do dumpster dive, I wouldnt be suprised if a bunch of 
FBI agents take me away for questioning...
> 
> I'm amazed at what perfectly good stuff management sees fit to toss.  When
> my company closed the office I worked out of at my last job, my former
> boss had the minions throw out all kinds of useful and valuable stuff in
> my absence.  I found out about it and ended up spending the evening inside
> a grimy dumpster retrieving several thousand dollars of useful equipment.
> 
> A lot of it has since served me very well :)
> 
> Sorry about your story, Ram.  That bites.
> 
> 


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Fri Oct 20 13:37:33 2000
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: Idiotic people who do not know the value of classic equipment
In-Reply-To: Re: Idiotic people who do not know the value of classic equipment (Ram Meenakshisundaram)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010200732001.17881-100000@siconic.com>
	<39F08E2D.5090404@olf.com>
Message-ID: <14832.37101.481866.149687@phaduka.neurotica.com>


  I'd say it'd be worth it.

   -Dave McGuire

On October 20, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote:
> 
> The worst thing about this is that I cant even dumpster dive as they do 
> a lot of different government contracts.  The whole area is pretty much 
> off limits.  If I do dumpster dive, I wouldnt be suprised if a bunch of 
> FBI agents take me away for questioning...
> > 
> > I'm amazed at what perfectly good stuff management sees fit to toss.  When
> > my company closed the office I worked out of at my last job, my former
> > boss had the minions throw out all kinds of useful and valuable stuff in
> > my absence.  I found out about it and ended up spending the evening inside
> > a grimy dumpster retrieving several thousand dollars of useful equipment.
> > 
> > A lot of it has since served me very well :)
> > 
> > Sorry about your story, Ram.  That bites.
> > 
> > 

From sean at techcare.com  Fri Oct 20 13:39:23 2000
From: sean at techcare.com (Sean Caron)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: OS for AT&T 6300
References: <200010201604.e9KG4x312200@bg-tc-ppp601.monmouth.com>
Message-ID: <00a101c03ac5$1167d680$0c00000a@techcare.com>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Pechter" <pechter@pechter.dyndns.org>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2000 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: OS for AT&T 6300


> > Is there a UNIX-ish type OS I could run?  If so, does anyone have a copy
to
> > sell me?  I thought about looking for an 8-bit ethernet card so I can
get
> > it online, but not sure if it is worth it...well, it's always worth it
to
> > get it online, but... :)
> >
> > Thanks, again, for all your help.
> >
> > Tarsi
> > 210
> >
> >
> >
>
> Actually, SCO Xenix SysV would work.  I've got the docs and a couple of
> sets -- but the install key was lost somewhere.
>
> I couldn't seem to get SCO to put the old install key generator anywhere
> or to have them rekey it without serious $$$.
>
> Bill
> --
> bpechter@monmouth.com    | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10
>                          | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2
>                          | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery
Tour
>

You could always try Minix :) It's still around, and you can find more
information
about it at the following URL:

http://www.cs.vu.nl/~ast/minix.html

Minix is pretty nifty; I used to run it on my old Toshiba T3100 286 laptop.
It
fits just fine in 640k of RAM and a 10 megabyte hard disk partition.

--Sean Caron (root@diablonet.net) | http://www.diablonet.net


From foo at siconic.com  Fri Oct 20 12:43:24 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: Drop the Microsoft & OS Discussion!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001020104022.007d6180@yellow.ucdavis.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010201041420.18139-100000@siconic.com>

On Fri, 20 Oct 2000, Edwin P. Groot wrote:

>      I vote to drop-kick this weeks discussion/useless rant on Windows and
> other OS's and other pokes to list members.
>      Get back to you classic computers, VAXen, boxen, whatever-you-have-en,
> which this list is meant for!
> 
>      Anyone with me on this?

Preach ooon, Brutha Edwin!!

Hallelujah!

:)

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From foo at siconic.com  Fri Oct 20 12:44:12 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: Idiotic people who do not know the value of classic equipment
In-Reply-To: <39F08E2D.5090404@olf.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010201043470.18139-100000@siconic.com>

On Fri, 20 Oct 2000, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote:

> The worst thing about this is that I cant even dumpster dive as they do 
> a lot of different government contracts.  The whole area is pretty much 
> off limits.  If I do dumpster dive, I wouldnt be suprised if a bunch of 
> FBI agents take me away for questioning...

Well, that's certainly one way to kill a weekend.

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From THETechnoid at home.com  Fri Oct 20 14:01:21 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: forklift rental in San Jose, CA?
In-Reply-To: <39F08A51.17206.CED518@localhost>
Message-ID: <20001020185622.SCBT3933.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

Off-topic, but we had some really cool gear in the SeaBees.

An RT (rough terrain) lift has huge ballon off-road tires.  The suspension
can be raised or dropped independantly for each tire.  In addition, the
forks could be raised, lowered, opened left or right independantly or
together, they could also pivot front, rear, and 'roll' left or right. 
You could 'trim' the vehicle for a steep grade in one direction and trim
the forks to counter that for a level load. The flexibility allowed for
some funky-looking trims. 

Some of the Alpha Company guys could make thier machines DANCE to music. 
It was like watching metal dinosaurs courting.  Really cool. I'm not THAT
good, but I'm competant.

Regards,

Jeff

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From THETechnoid at home.com  Fri Oct 20 14:09:12 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: Idiotic people who do not know the value of classic equipment
In-Reply-To: <14832.37101.481866.149687@phaduka.neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <20001020190031.SGRH3933.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

Me too.  Play Stealth Monster, get the gear.  If you get caught, what are
they going to do?  Take away your birthday?  After all, its junk to them.

Jeff

In <14832.37101.481866.149687@phaduka.neurotica.com>, on 10/20/00 
   at 03:09 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire@neurotica.com> said:


>  I'd say it'd be worth it.

>   -Dave McGuire

>On October 20, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote:
>> 
>> The worst thing about this is that I cant even dumpster dive as they do 
>> a lot of different government contracts.  The whole area is pretty much 
>> off limits.  If I do dumpster dive, I wouldnt be suprised if a bunch of 
>> FBI agents take me away for questioning...
>> > 
>> > I'm amazed at what perfectly good stuff management sees fit to toss.  When
>> > my company closed the office I worked out of at my last job, my former
>> > boss had the minions throw out all kinds of useful and valuable stuff in
>> > my absence.  I found out about it and ended up spending the evening inside
>> > a grimy dumpster retrieving several thousand dollars of useful equipment.
>> > 
>> > A lot of it has since served me very well :)
>> > 
>> > Sorry about your story, Ram.  That bites.
>> > 
>> > 

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From steverob at hotoffice.com  Fri Oct 20 14:09:41 2000
From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: Drop the Microsoft & OS Discussion!
Message-ID: <E01938173443D411827A0050040DC0D6474367@hoexc101.hotoffice.com>

I'm with ya there.

For the last few weeks, I've been deleting virtually all the messages from
this group. I'm sure I've missed some good stuff but, I'm sick and tired of
wading through all the MS and Ebay BS to get the messages of on-topic
interest.

Steve Robertson <steverob@hotoffice.com>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Edwin P. Groot [mailto:epgroot@ucdavis.edu]
> Sent: Friday, October 20, 2000 1:40 PM
> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org
> Subject: Drop the Microsoft & OS Discussion!
> 
> 
>      I vote to drop-kick this weeks discussion/useless rant 
> on Windows and
> other OS's and other pokes to list members.
>      Get back to you classic computers, VAXen, boxen, 
> whatever-you-have-en,
> which this list is meant for!
> 
>      Anyone with me on this?
>      Edwin
> 
-------------- next part --------------
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From Innfogra at aol.com  Fri Oct 20 14:11:33 2000
From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: forklift rental in San Jose, CA?
Message-ID: <17.c85e7e8.2721f2e5@aol.com>

When you are renting a truck look for a Rail Gate rather than a lift gate. 
They are bigger and will carry a heavier load. The lift goes up and down on a 
more horizontal plane. Produce trucks use these because the lift heavy 
pallets with a power lift jack and they need to carry the weight. Check with 
the Business truck rental places like Ryder. Look for an independent Truck 
rental that has heavy trucks. No one will rent one way.

If it is a long haul check with a computer moving company or freight 
forwarder to ship the gear. If you buy space by the square yard or partial 
truck load rather than by weight it is cheaper. You will need a forklift or 
loading dock to load these trailers.

If you are picking something up in an industrial park or area there are 
usually lots of Forklifts in the area. Talking to a neighboring business will 
usually get you a lift truck and an operator for a reasonable price. Be ready 
for them to move, they don't like waiting. 

Good luck. What are you picking up?
Paxton

From THETechnoid at home.com  Fri Oct 20 14:23:03 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: Drop the Microsoft & OS Discussion!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010201041420.18139-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <20001020191428.TBCZ3933.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

I>>      Anyone with me on this?

I really don't mind discussions which compare architectures because that
is my bent.  As long as it doesn't get personal, I'm not offended in the
least.

Regards,

jeff

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From jos.mar at bluewin.ch  Fri Oct 20 16:22:16 2000
From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (dreesen)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: TU56 on PDP8/A (M8315)
Message-ID: <39F0B788.FE391C3F@bluewin.ch>

A question to better informed people than me : 
Will a TD8/E board work correctly on a PDP8/A with a kk8/A (M8315) CPU ?

The pdp8/a minprocessor handbook doesn't give any limitations on this, but 
the pdp8/A operator's handbook states that the TD8/E only works with the 8/E
CPU. Does anyone have a definitive answer to this (i.e. has tried this )

				Thanks,

					Jos Dreesen

From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Fri Oct 20 14:21:31 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: NatSemi 32000 (Was: RE: Drop the Microsoft & OS Discussion!)
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB24C@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>

>      I vote to drop-kick this weeks discussion/useless rant 
> on Windows and other OS's and other pokes to list members.
>      Get back to you classic computers, VAXen, boxen, 
> whatever-you-have-en, which this list is meant for!
> 
>      Anyone with me on this?

I've heard little discussion (since I joined earlier this year)
about the National Semiconductor 32000 processor line. IIRC,
some (but not all) of the chips in this family were true 
3-address machines.

Anyone familiar with them? Do any significant assembly
language programming on one?

-dq

From mac at Wireless.Com  Fri Oct 20 14:29:12 2000
From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: Recovering Sysadmin
In-Reply-To: <39F084F0.FC8A79B1@timharrison.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.4.21.0010201221570.475-100000@NameServer.Culver.Net>

On Fri, 20 Oct 2000, Tim Harrison wrote:

> but she lost interest immediately upon seeing a 6' rack being trundled
> into the living room.  

Outrageous!  And heck, it's only an 11/34!  What happens when you want to
bring in that 11/70 when you see one?


Well, you have three choices, as I see it:

1) Dump the girlfriend, she's clearly mis-calibrated;

or

2) Marry her, because then she'll pretty much have to tolerate it, 'cause
   divorce is even messier & costlier.

or

3) Remain single.  Quite a few collectors I know are single, and I'm pretty
   sure that's because their houses and garages are full of computer stuff,
   leaving no room for another person (let alone another person's stuff).


-Mike C



From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Fri Oct 20 15:28:19 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010181950370.14933-100000@siconic.com>
References: <Pine.OSF.4.21.0010181531430.24201-100000@ridge.spiritone.com>
Message-ID: <l03102800b6165302a994@[192.168.1.4]>

>Aaron, sorry to say it but every point you're making here points towards
>selfishness.  There seems to be no concern here with a greater ideal
>outside of monetary gain.  Hey, utlimately it's your perogative, but there
>are other things to consider besides how much money you can line your
>pockets with.  This is, after all, primarily a hobby of preservation.

Hobby of preservation, business of scrap.

If you have never actually seen a cow, or searched long and hard and
finally found one, then it is fairly easy to think of them as noble animals
and hamburger an unworthy end for them. Regular exposure in larger numbers
and cents per pound seems quite reasonable.

People who scrap old computers by the truckload everyday have a different
point of view from collectors. They know that 99.9% of the stuff that
passes through their hands has no buyer except as scrap, and that the 0.1%
that appeals to collectors often brings a much higher price. Even at the
much higher price per pound we as collectors are just a tiny blip on the
bottom line.

Its a free country, hop right into the scrap business if it looks so good.



From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Fri Oct 20 15:35:48 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010182028140.14933-100000@siconic.com>
References: <03a501c0395f$fe52f5e0$0200a8c0@marvin>
Message-ID: <l03102801b6165b91ace2@[192.168.1.4]>

>And this is a self-defeating situation.  They need to keep their prices
>high so that the occasional sale they do make allows them to stay in
>operation.  It's basic, simple, economics.  High volume vs. high margin.
>Both have their pros and cons, but you also have to think about the market
>you're in.  This is a hobbyist market.  We don't have big bucks to go
>throwing around.  Go for high volume and you'll come out ahead every time.

Phoo, the market isn't elastic, its fairly finite, ie if I had 10 of x I
might be able to sell them all for a good price, but if I had 15 the last
five might not have a buyer at all. Even in the much larger mac marketplace
I KNOW this to be a fact, that relatively small amounts of product dumping
(99 cent ebay ads) can kill the value of whole categories of products. As
soon as the dumpers run out the price often comes right back up to a more
reasonable level (anything selling for less than cost of shipping isn't too
reasonable to me).



From geneb at deltasoft.com  Fri Oct 20 14:42:47 2000
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: Recovering Sysadmin
In-Reply-To: <39F084F0.FC8A79B1@timharrison.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010201241320.7506-100000@war.deltasoft.com>

> > I got really lucky.  I met my (to be) wife while wearing something like 7
> > different hats at a startup ISP.  We had a horrid ice storm in 1996 that
> 
> I met mine while I was a senior admin at an ISP in New York.  She was a
> friend of someone I had become friends with there (actually, was his
> first grrlfriend).  She came to work for the company in billing, and I
> spent the first week trying to remember my name.
>
Hehehehe.
 
> So, she learned that I was too geek to live, and has set about trying to
> domesticate me.  It's caused many a battle.  She understands my desire
Silly girl.  They never get it do they? :)

> 
> So, I may be looking to sell/trade a PDP-11/34a, in the Toronto, ON
> area, in the very near future. :(

I'd trade the woman, you'll get less argument out of the PDP. *gd&r*

g.



From harrison at timharrison.com  Fri Oct 20 15:03:15 2000
From: harrison at timharrison.com (Tim Harrison)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: Recovering Sysadmin
References: <Pine.BSI.4.21.0010201221570.475-100000@NameServer.Culver.Net>
Message-ID: <39F0A503.224E1DE8@timharrison.com>

Mike Cheponis wrote:

> Outrageous!  And heck, it's only an 11/34!  What happens when you want to
> bring in that 11/70 when you see one?

Then I'd better have a storage facility, and a whole lot of money to
keep it hidden. :)
 
> 1) Dump the girlfriend, she's clearly mis-calibrated;

I can't, we're married. :)

> 2) Marry her, because then she'll pretty much have to tolerate it, 'cause
>    divorce is even messier & costlier.

We're married, and she barely tolerates things that take up the living
room. :)

> 3) Remain single.  Quite a few collectors I know are single, and I'm pretty
>    sure that's because their houses and garages are full of computer stuff,
>    leaving no room for another person (let alone another person's stuff).

Too late.  I'm married. :)

-- 


Tim Harrison
Network Engineer
harrison@timharrison.com
http://www.networklevel.com/

From jeff.kaneko at juno.com  Fri Oct 20 15:10:09 2000
From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: NatSemi 32000 (Was: RE: Drop the Microsoft & OS Discussion!)
Message-ID: <20001020.151009.-375223.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com>


There was a project board that was featured in the
Micro Cornucopia around 1984, or so.   It was an
ISA co-processor board, that ran UNIX; it used the PC
as an IO server.  It was pretty slick.  I really 
wanted one, but sure couldn't afford it.

One of these actually showed up on e-bay a couple of 
years back; naturally I was outbid.

There was another project, the PC32 which was a 
32000 based SBC.  Also pretty slick; they run NetBSD.
These are pretty rare as well.

All of the 32000's had an 'orthogonal' instruction
set; it was also the same IS for 8,16,and 32 bit
parts.

I have the users manual around here someplace . . .


Jeff

On Fri, 20 Oct 2000 15:21:31 -0400 Douglas Quebbeman
<dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com> writes:
> >      I vote to drop-kick this weeks discussion/useless rant 
> > on Windows and other OS's and other pokes to list members.
> >      Get back to you classic computers, VAXen, boxen, 
> > whatever-you-have-en, which this list is meant for!
> > 
> >      Anyone with me on this?
> 
> I've heard little discussion (since I joined earlier this year)
> about the National Semiconductor 32000 processor line. IIRC,
> some (but not all) of the chips in this family were true 
> 3-address machines.
> 
> Anyone familiar with them? Do any significant assembly
> language programming on one?
> 
> -dq

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

From gregorym at cadvision.com  Fri Oct 20 15:13:29 2000
From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
References: <03a501c0395f$fe52f5e0$0200a8c0@marvin> <l03102801b6165b91ace2@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <014101c03ad2$36806060$0200a8c0@marvin>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Ford" <mikeford@socal.rr.com>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2000 2:35 PM
Subject: Re: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)


> I KNOW this to be a fact, that relatively small amounts of product
dumping
> (99 cent ebay ads) can kill the value of whole categories of products. As
> soon as the dumpers run out the price often comes right back up to a more
> reasonable level (anything selling for less than cost of shipping isn't
too
> reasonable to me).
>

An illustration of how it pays to be patient and judicious in when you
sell: there's a fellow in Vancouver BC (eBay id packnship) who has (or had)
a large number of new or near new Amiga CD-32s. He's been steadily
trickling them onto the market, one at a time, for months if not years.
Every once in a while he throws in an extra goodie, like an SX-1 expansion
or a CD-32 modem. They continually fetch good prices. I suspect that a
Dutch auction or sale in bulk would have realized much lower prices.

If you want a new in box CD-32, watch Computers > Hardware > Amiga on eBay
for a while.

Mark.


From transit at lerctr.org  Fri Oct 20 15:32:36 2000
From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: Alright you Linux-heads...
In-Reply-To: <l03102800b6165302a994@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SV4.3.96.001020152040.9056A-100000@lerami.lerctr.org>


I've got a couple of 486 boxen (25 mHz, 8-megs of Ram, 1.2 gig
hard drive) sitting around the house. I'd like to make one of them 
into a Linux-based firewall for my cable modem. (I also have a copy
of Turbo Linux available for this project)

Currently I use both a PC and a Mac, and switch between them via
a KVM switch. Both are equipped with Ethernet cards to connect into
the cable modem. I've tried using an Ethernet cable switch to 
select either the PC or the Mac, but it didn't quite work the way I
expected it to.

At the very minimum, I would like to be able to 
* have both the PC and Mac be able to access the internet at
the same time
* do the usual firewall stuff (e.g. keep the bad guy out. I currently
use ZoneAlarm on the pc, and it does a decent job)

I'd also like to go further, and have the Mac and PC read each other's
hard drives (still, while keeping outside users out)

What do I need to do/get here?

Thanks!


From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Fri Oct 20 15:44:17 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: Last (or next to last) Multics System to be Decommissioned
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB250@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>

Forwarded from alt.os.multics:

From: "R. Barry Walker" <rbwalker@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca>
Subject: Impending Shutdown - DND-H Multics System
Date: 09 Oct 2000 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: <8rtsc8$b9c$1@news.drenet.dnd.ca>
Organization: DREnet News Server
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Oct 2000 01:45:44 GMT
Newsgroups: alt.os.multics

After some 18 years of service, the DND-H  Multics system will shut down on
or about 1100 Atlantic Standard Time 31 Oct. 2000.   All of the unique
applications we wrote for it have been moved over to a series of Unix, Linux
and even NT servers.  It survived the Year 2000 switchover, and now it's
time to move on.

Sic transit historia multicis...

Barry Walker


 

From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Fri Oct 20 15:48:03 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: Preserving a Multics System
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB252@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>

Here's an interesting datapoint about the cost of running
a preserved/rescued Multics:

> "NO UCE" <nouce@multics.ruserved.com> wrote in message
> news:8s1ltb$sco$1@multics.ruserved.com...
> > So how much would it cost to 'mothball' the hardware and store it?
> >
> > I'd ask how much it would cost to run a minimal system, 1 CPU, RAM,
> > disk, etc, but I'm afraid of what the answer might be.
> >
> 
> The 1 CPU DPS-8/70M with 4 MW, 1 IMU, 1 18x FNP, 2 FIPS tapes, 3 FIPS D
and
> 1 FIPS E disk that we ran at CGI/Perigon/ACTC consumed around 1.1 MWhr of
> electricity a day running mostly the idle program. Based on current
utility
> rates in Calgary, that translates to about $2,000 CDN per month. This
> included the AC load added to the room. The configuration cited is not the
> minimal. 

This is why emulators are needed for the really old stuff, even if
it does still run.

regards,
-dq

From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com  Fri Oct 20 16:05:46 2000
From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: Alright you Linux-heads...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SV4.3.96.001020152040.9056A-100000@lerami.lerctr.org>
Message-ID: <000201c03ad9$84eb47e0$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>


Charles P. Hobbs:
> ...PC and a Mac, and switch between them via a KVM switch.


Excuse me, but is that switching the K-V-M or just the 'V?
I thought Mac was kept PC incompatible except for VGA compat.
signal levels.

John A.

From rivie at teraglobal.com  Fri Oct 20 16:12:32 2000
From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: Alright you Linux-heads...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SV4.3.96.001020152040.9056A-100000@lerami.lerctr.org>
References: <Pine.SV4.3.96.001020152040.9056A-100000@lerami.lerctr.org>
Message-ID: <v04210100b616659646a5@[10.2.0.173]>

>I've got a couple of 486 boxen (25 mHz, 8-megs of Ram, 1.2 gig
>hard drive) sitting around the house. I'd like to make one of them
>into a Linux-based firewall for my cable modem. (I also have a copy
>of Turbo Linux available for this project)
>
>What do I need to do/get here?

Sounds like an excuse to play with Coyote Linux. See
http://www.coyotelinux.com/coyote.html

--
Roger Ivie
rivie@teraglobal.com
Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation

From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Fri Oct 20 16:12:48 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:07 2005
Subject: Alright you Linux-heads...
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB253@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>

> I've got a couple of 486 boxen (25 mHz, 8-megs of Ram, 1.2 gig
> hard drive) sitting around the house. I'd like to make one of them 
> into a Linux-based firewall for my cable modem. (I also have a copy
> of Turbo Linux available for this project)
> 
> Currently I use both a PC and a Mac, and switch between them via
> a KVM switch. Both are equipped with Ethernet cards to connect into
> the cable modem. I've tried using an Ethernet cable switch to 
> select either the PC or the Mac, but it didn't quite work the way I
> expected it to.

As in you have to boot fresh after switching?

> At the very minimum, I would like to be able to 
> * have both the PC and Mac be able to access the internet at the same time
> * do the usual firewall stuff (e.g. keep the bad guy out. I currently
> use ZoneAlarm on the pc, and it does a decent job)

What we use here is Vicom Internet Gateway (now SoftRouter) on a Mac
to connect our 40 Windows systems to the Internet. However, since you
started this thread with wanting to do it with Linux, you need the IP 
masquerading stuff for Linux; I never got that far with Linux, so someone 
else will hopefully chime in here.

> I'd also like to go further, and have the Mac and PC read each other's
> hard drives (still, while keeping outside users out)

Ouch... you didn't mention what runs on the PC... assuming Windows,
I don't know of any freeware AppleShare clients for the PC. You
can use PC MacLAN, but it's just under $200.

Maybe NFS?

Regards,
-doug q

From mac at Wireless.Com  Fri Oct 20 16:16:10 2000
From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: Preserving a Multics System
In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB252@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.4.21.0010201408340.475-100000@NameServer.Culver.Net>

Hey, c'mon, that's CHEAP!  Like $50 US per day.

Lemme tell you, if you all don't already know this: there ain't -NOTHING- like
actually running the old stuff, compared with an emulator.

There's nothing like the whirring fans, the smells (hopefully not from smoke
escaping from componets), the physical switches and knobs, and, of course,
the blinkenlights.  

It even seems more satisfying running programs on The Real Thing.  And it's
especially cool if you have the peripherals of the day working, too.

(As for Multics, I sure hope it remains rescued, since Multics is better in 
 every way than unix except for pipes, which unix added.)

-mac


On Fri, 20 Oct 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote:

> Here's an interesting datapoint about the cost of running
> a preserved/rescued Multics:

>> The 1 CPU DPS-8/70M with 4 MW, 1 IMU, 1 18x FNP, 2 FIPS tapes, 3 FIPS D and
>> 1 FIPS E disk that we ran at CGI/Perigon/ACTC consumed around 1.1 MWhr of
>> electricity a day running mostly the idle program. Based on current utility
>> rates in Calgary, that translates to about $2,000 CDN per month. This
>> included the AC load added to the room. The configuration cited is not the
>> minimal. 


> This is why emulators are needed for the really old stuff, even if
> it does still run.
 
> regards,
> -dq


From foo at siconic.com  Fri Oct 20 15:13:23 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: Alright you Linux-heads...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SV4.3.96.001020152040.9056A-100000@lerami.lerctr.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010201312180.18393-100000@siconic.com>

On Fri, 20 Oct 2000, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote:

> I'd also like to go further, and have the Mac and PC read each other's
> hard drives (still, while keeping outside users out)
> 
> What do I need to do/get here?

Charles, don't take this the wrong way but there are plenty of newsgroups
that cover this.  This is way OT for CC.

E-mail me privately and I'll be happy to give you info that will get you
started (and possibly finished).

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From foo at siconic.com  Fri Oct 20 15:14:57 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: Last (or next to last) Multics System to be Decommissioned
In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB250@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010201314390.18393-100000@siconic.com>

On Fri, 20 Oct 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote:

> Forwarded from alt.os.multics:
> 
> From: "R. Barry Walker" <rbwalker@dgs.drenet.dnd.ca>
> Subject: Impending Shutdown - DND-H Multics System
> Date: 09 Oct 2000 00:00:00 GMT
> Message-ID: <8rtsc8$b9c$1@news.drenet.dnd.ca>
> Organization: DREnet News Server
> NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Oct 2000 01:45:44 GMT
> Newsgroups: alt.os.multics
> 
> After some 18 years of service, the DND-H  Multics system will shut down on
> or about 1100 Atlantic Standard Time 31 Oct. 2000.   All of the unique
> applications we wrote for it have been moved over to a series of Unix, Linux
> and even NT servers.  It survived the Year 2000 switchover, and now it's
> time to move on.

And someone is going to acquire this hardware for posterity I assume??

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From djenner at halcyon.com  Fri Oct 20 16:19:25 2000
From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: Alright you Linux-heads...
References: <Pine.SV4.3.96.001020152040.9056A-100000@lerami.lerctr.org>
Message-ID: <39F0B6DD.74B9158C@halcyon.com>

There are a couple of freeware or shareware Linux-based
"products" that make a good router/firewall/gateway.
They include:
	ShareTheNet: http://www.sharethenet.com
	Freesco:     http://www.freesco.org
These tend to be easy to set up, but may not do a lot
of other stuff you might want (print server, etc.).
See, in general:
	Linux Router Project: http://www.linuxrouter.org

I've used ShareTheNet with an old 386/8MB/floppy-only
system for over two years now with my DSL connection.
(It's in a small case with no keyboard or monitor.)
STN hasn't "improved" much recently, but it does everything
I want it to do.  Freesco has a few more features, is
still evolving, and is free.

The Mac and PC can "read each other's hard drives"
over your local area network using FTP, but if you
want to go beyond that, you'll need additional software
on one or both of the machines.  I don't think your
router/firewall/gateway can do much to expedite this aspect.

Dave

"Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)" wrote:
> 
> I've got a couple of 486 boxen (25 mHz, 8-megs of Ram, 1.2 gig
> hard drive) sitting around the house. I'd like to make one of them
> into a Linux-based firewall for my cable modem. (I also have a copy
> of Turbo Linux available for this project)
> 
> Currently I use both a PC and a Mac, and switch between them via
> a KVM switch. Both are equipped with Ethernet cards to connect into
> the cable modem. I've tried using an Ethernet cable switch to
> select either the PC or the Mac, but it didn't quite work the way I
> expected it to.
> 
> At the very minimum, I would like to be able to
> * have both the PC and Mac be able to access the internet at
> the same time
> * do the usual firewall stuff (e.g. keep the bad guy out. I currently
> use ZoneAlarm on the pc, and it does a decent job)
> 
> I'd also like to go further, and have the Mac and PC read each other's
> hard drives (still, while keeping outside users out)
> 
> What do I need to do/get here?
> 
> Thanks!

From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com  Fri Oct 20 16:24:40 2000
From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: NatSemi 32000 
Message-ID: <F51niSnRMWuLn5U9T3T00000f6c@hotmail.com>

I know a guy who worked on designing the Tektronics machine that used the 
NS32K family.. I've always wanted to ask him about the machine, design 
process, etc.. I also have the preliminary info on TI's 32000 products, 
since they second-sourced it.. I have the NS 32000 databook also..

Will J
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Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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From rickb at bensene.com  Fri Oct 20 16:41:19 2000
From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: NatSemi 32000
In-Reply-To: <20001020.151009.-375223.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBLGPCOLFICAHOHKHLOEFFCCAA.rickb@bensene.com>


Tektronix (the Oscilloscope people) built a line of early Unix workstations
based on the National 16032 (which was the 16-bit bus version of the 32032).
These machines were the Tektronx 6130 and the later Tektronix 4132.  I have
running examples of each.  These machines ran a Tek-hacked version of 4.2bsd
called UTek.  The machines were essentially a single-board
computer that had the CPU, some on-board RAM (1MB), a ST-506 hard disk
interface (on the 6130) or SCSI-I Interface (on the 4132) a floppy
controller (on the 6130),   two serial ports, a GPIB port, an
AUI connector for 10Mb Ethernet, and a bus interface that allowed various
option boards (RAM, Async, Parallel, SCSI, GPIB) to be plugged in.

These machines were actually pretty cool for their time...and if Tek
would have marketed them properly, the could have competed with
Sun's machines.  But, Tek was an instrumentation company, and they
really didn't know very well how to market a Unix workstation. Tek
made another attempt at the market with the 43xx workstations, but
these used Motorola 68K and 88K CPU's, and never really did very will
with them.

Rick Bensene
The Old Calculator Web Museum
http://www.geocities.com/oldcalculators








From transit at lerctr.org  Fri Oct 20 16:32:43 2000
From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: Alright you Linux-heads...
In-Reply-To: <000201c03ad9$84eb47e0$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SV4.3.96.001020163121.9056C-100000@lerami.lerctr.org>



On Fri, 20 Oct 2000, John Allain wrote:

> 
> Charles P. Hobbs:
> > ...PC and a Mac, and switch between them via a KVM switch.
> 
> 
> Excuse me, but is that switching the K-V-M or just the 'V?
> I thought Mac was kept PC incompatible except for VGA compat.
> signal levels.

Actually, it's not a "real" mac, but a PowerComputing machine, so
all of the named signals are compatible (well, the mouse is kind
of flaky when switched through the KVM, so I just resign myself to
having two mice on the desk...)




From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Fri Oct 20 16:37:57 2000
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: A LART is needed (was: VCF 4.0)
In-Reply-To: <l03102801b6165b91ace2@[192.168.1.4]>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010182028140.14933-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <39F0D755.11647.1FBAEDB@localhost>

> >Aaron, sorry to say it but every point you're making here points towards
> >selfishness.  There seems to be no concern here with a greater ideal
> >outside of monetary gain.  Hey, utlimately it's your perogative, but
> >there are other things to consider besides how much money you can line
> >your pockets with.  This is, after all, primarily a hobby of
> >preservation.

> Hobby of preservation, business of scrap.

Maybe.

> If you have never actually seen a cow, or searched long and hard and
> finally found one, then it is fairly easy to think of them as noble
> animals and hamburger an unworthy end for them. Regular exposure in larger
> numbers and cents per pound seems quite reasonable.

It's a good example - And I know exactly how hard a cow can hit
you ... And even more, I don't think of sheep as some fluffy
cosy itsywitsy bubbles, but rather demons created to drop a
mine field of little black pelets into the green, right on time
before your drill sergant decided to teach you the seal walk.
As once said: The Army will add Flavour to your Character - but
back to the black and white friends: A farmer is unlikely to show
a attitude like mentioned - they have a business, and more often
than not this includes selling cattle lower than what has been
spend to raise them. But still I haven't heared of farmers killing
them before selling them for close to zero (Eurocrats don't count
in here). Even more: you may remember the brithish cow madness,
and farmers who did brake laws just to sell their stock _way_
below any reasonable price ... and any other action would have
resulted in even less money, so where's the named sense in scraping ?

> People who scrap old computers by the truckload everyday have a different
> point of view from collectors. They know that 99.9% of the stuff that
> passes through their hands has no buyer except as scrap, and that the 0.1%
> that appeals to collectors often brings a much higher price. Even at the
> much higher price per pound we as collectors are just a tiny blip on the
> bottom line.

Jep, and I won't argue against. Collectors are (almost) nonexistent
in the scrap metal bussines. Just t wasn't about the usual scraper,
who prefers to sell it by the pound, but rather people who already
invested time to pick specific junk for resale as collecteble.

> Its a free country, hop right into the scrap business if it looks so good.

Shure, no doubt.

> >And this is a self-defeating situation.  They need to keep their prices
> >high so that the occasional sale they do make allows them to stay in
> >operation.  It's basic, simple, economics.  High volume vs. high margin.
> >Both have their pros and cons, but you also have to think about the market
> >you're in.  This is a hobbyist market.  We don't have big bucks to go
> >throwing around.  Go for high volume and you'll come out ahead every time.

> Phoo, the market isn't elastic, its fairly finite, ie if I had 10 of x I
> might be able to sell them all for a good price, but if I had 15 the last
> five might not have a buyer at all. Even in the much larger mac marketplace
> I KNOW this to be a fact, that relatively small amounts of product dumping
> (99 cent ebay ads) can kill the value of whole categories of products. As
> soon as the dumpers run out the price often comes right back up to a more
> reasonable level (anything selling for less than cost of shipping isn't too
> reasonable to me).

To bring this back to a reasonable Level: We didn't start of
about dealers dumping stuff after VCF instead of selling lower.
And the gear in question isn't an Apple 1, where your asumption
may be valid, but rather Tandys and other comon place classics.

Also for your above equation: It's only (somewhat) reasonable if
you are the only one with a supply at all - if there are 10 more,
with even only one each, all you do is damaging your total.

Alas, to consider the start of this thread, AFAIK it will be not
a big thing to find an agreement with the person(s) in question.
We can't maybe change the world, but we can start at VCF :)

Anyway
Gruss
H.



--
VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen
http://www.vintage.org/vcfe
http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Fri Oct 20 16:41:07 2000
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: Recovering Sysadmin
In-Reply-To: <39F084F0.FC8A79B1@timharrison.com>
Message-ID: <39F0D813.2084.1FE95C7@localhost>

> > I got really lucky.  I met my (to be) wife while wearing something like 7
> > different hats at a startup ISP.  We had a horrid ice storm in 1996 that

> So, she learned that I was too geek to live, and has set about trying to
> domesticate me.  It's caused many a battle.  She understands my desire
> to collect computers, but doesn't share the same joy.  In fact, she's
> been suggesting I get rid of my PDP-11/34a, after we bought it together,
> and she didn't realize how large it was.  There was much rejoicing at
> the thought that she would find it interesting learning old technology,
> but she lost interest immediately upon seeing a 6' rack being trundled
> into the living room.

> So, I may be looking to sell/trade a PDP-11/34a, in the Toronto, ON
> area, in the very near future. :(

C'me on, there's always anpther solution......

:)
H.

--
VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen
http://www.vintage.org/vcfe
http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

From transit at lerctr.org  Fri Oct 20 16:46:45 2000
From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: Alright you Linux-heads...
In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB253@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SV4.3.96.001020163714.9056D-100000@lerami.lerctr.org>



On Fri, 20 Oct 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote:

> > Currently I use both a PC and a Mac, and switch between them via
> > a KVM switch. Both are equipped with Ethernet cards to connect into
> > the cable modem. I've tried using an Ethernet cable switch to 
> > select either the PC or the Mac, but it didn't quite work the way I
> > expected it to.
> 
> As in you have to boot fresh after switching?

Worse than that. More like reconfiguring the TCP/IP control
panel on each machine, because the cable system wants to re-assign
the IP addresses every time I switch the cable from one machine to
another (static IP's are not available)

[...]> 
> > I'd also like to go further, and have the Mac and PC read each other's
> > hard drives (still, while keeping outside users out)
> 
> Ouch... you didn't mention what runs on the PC... assuming Windows,

Yes, Windows 98...


From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Fri Oct 20 16:52:01 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: Last (or next to last) Multics System to be Decommissioned
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB254@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>

> And someone is going to acquire this hardware for posterity I assume??

Doubtful... this was a military machine, and although it didn't handle
classified data, they didn't grant accounts to outsiders, which even
the NSA did with the DOCKMASTER system until it was decomissioned in
1998.

But maybe if someone with deep enough pockets and good Canadian
connections tries, who knows what might be possible...

-dq

From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Fri Oct 20 16:52:30 2000
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: Drop the Microsoft & OS Discussion!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001020104022.007d6180@yellow.ucdavis.edu>
Message-ID: <39F0DABE.22696.2090190@localhost>

>      I vote to drop-kick this weeks discussion/useless rant on Windows and
> other OS's and other pokes to list members.
>      Get back to you classic computers, VAXen, boxen, whatever-you-have-en,
> which this list is meant for!

>      Anyone with me on this?
>      Edwin

Be serious Edwin, this is a colputer classic in itself by any means
(the my-os/language/system/homecomputer/...-is-better-than-yours 
discussion). What they are doing is keeping a great tradition alife.

:))

Gruss
H.

BTW, couldn't we exclude VAX discusions from the list ?



--
VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen
http://www.vintage.org/vcfe
http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Fri Oct 20 17:02:23 2000
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: MS Laugh-In
In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB242@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>
Message-ID: <39F0DD0F.23718.2120CCF@localhost>


> > I thought I might as well continue this line of thought - I  
> > DON'T  HAVE  A
> > PRINTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> > !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> > Can I mail in the monitor screen?

> ROFL!

Use a Camera, and we're back on topic .... :)

Gruss
H.

--
VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen
http://www.vintage.org/vcfe
http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Fri Oct 20 16:57:32 2000
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: NatSemi 32000 (Was: RE: Drop the Microsoft & OS Discussion!)
In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB24C@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010201456330.7551-100000@war.deltasoft.com>

> I've heard little discussion (since I joined earlier this year)
> about the National Semiconductor 32000 processor line. IIRC,
> some (but not all) of the chips in this family were true 
> 3-address machines.
> 
> Anyone familiar with them? Do any significant assembly
> language programming on one?
> 
I seem to recall a series of articles in Micro Cornacopia magazine years
ago.  Is the line still produced?

g.



From eric at brouhaha.com  Fri Oct 20 17:12:28 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: Preserving a Multics System
In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB252@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>
	(message from Douglas Quebbeman on Fri, 20 Oct 2000 16:48:03 -0400)
References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB252@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>
Message-ID: <20001020221228.2250.qmail@brouhaha.com>

> This is why emulators are needed for the really old stuff, even if
> it does still run.

Yes, but for the emulator to be useful, someone has to *save* the software
to run on it, and the documentation.

Even though this seems obvious, it's *amazing* how often it doesn't happen.

So is anyone archiving the software for this Mulitcs system?

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Fri Oct 20 17:00:29 2000
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: Recovering Sysadmin
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.4.21.0010201221570.475-100000@NameServer.Culver.Net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010201458220.7551-100000@war.deltasoft.com>

> Outrageous!  And heck, it's only an 11/34!  What happens when you want to
> bring in that 11/70 when you see one?
>
I rescued one of those for a friend of mine.  He put it in an old
single-wide mobile home he had "spare" on his property.  Got it all up and
running and then a tree fell on the trailer during a nasty windstorm. :(
 
> 1) Dump the girlfriend, she's clearly mis-calibrated;
> 
Mis-calibrated.  C|N>K.  You bastard.  I *like* it. :)

g.



From harrison at timharrison.com  Fri Oct 20 17:16:03 2000
From: harrison at timharrison.com (Tim Harrison)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: Recovering Sysadmin
References: <39F0D813.2084.1FE95C7@localhost>
Message-ID: <39F0C423.E0B4EC3D@timharrison.com>

Hans Franke wrote:

> C'me on, there's always anpther solution......

Unfortunately, there might not be.  We're going to be moving shortly,
and it's next to impossible to take the PDP-11 with us. :(  I've been
able to keep it up until now, but with moving preparations on the go,
it's coming down to decision time.

Thing is, how does one get rid of a PDP-11 in a couple of weeks?  I
can't imagine there's a huge market for them in Toronto (and I am NOT
shipping this thing).

-- 


Tim Harrison
Network Engineer
harrison@timharrison.com
http://www.networklevel.com/

From harrison at timharrison.com  Fri Oct 20 17:20:53 2000
From: harrison at timharrison.com (Tim Harrison)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: Last (or next to last) Multics System to be Decommissioned
References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB254@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>
Message-ID: <39F0C545.58C0C5A0@timharrison.com>

Douglas Quebbeman wrote:

> Doubtful... this was a military machine, and although it didn't handle
> classified data, they didn't grant accounts to outsiders, which even
> the NSA did with the DOCKMASTER system until it was decomissioned in
> 1998.

Considering my oft-lamented PDP is from the Canadian Department of
National Defence, I'm sure it's possible.  It was part of the
engineering corps at CFB London, and was definitely not handling
classified material.
 
> But maybe if someone with deep enough pockets and good Canadian
> connections tries, who knows what might be possible...

Just asking them might not be a bad plan.  I'm willing to bet there are
a lot of people who worked on this thing that would prefer not to see it
scrapped, and would love to hear from someone willing to take it off the
government's hands. :)

I wish I could do it. :)

-- 


Tim Harrison
Network Engineer
harrison@timharrison.com
http://www.networklevel.com/

From mcguire at neurotica.com  Fri Oct 20 17:23:53 2000
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: Last (or next to last) Multics System to be Decommissioned
In-Reply-To: RE: Last (or next to last) Multics System to be Decommissioned (Douglas Quebbeman)
References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB254@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>
Message-ID: <14832.50681.451304.928021@phaduka.neurotica.com>

On October 20, Douglas Quebbeman wrote:
> > And someone is going to acquire this hardware for posterity I assume??
> 
> Doubtful... this was a military machine, and although it didn't handle
> classified data, they didn't grant accounts to outsiders, which even
> the NSA did with the DOCKMASTER system until it was decomissioned in
> 1998.
> 
> But maybe if someone with deep enough pockets and good Canadian
> connections tries, who knows what might be possible...

  It seems a huge shame to let a machine like this get scrapped.
Surely *someone* can save it?

     -Dave McGuire

From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu  Fri Oct 20 17:34:49 2000
From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: 95LX Connectivity Software
Message-ID: <200010202234.PAA24828@stockholm.ptloma.edu>

Well, I got the HP 95LX Connectivity software for DOS and it doesn't work!
(The disk says "Packed file is corrupt" when I run the install program.
DOS 6.0 on a 486 laptop.)

Does anyone have an install disk they can zip up and send me? I do have
the disks, but they just don't work.

-- 
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
 Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- All things are possible, except skiing through a revolving door. -----------

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Oct 20 15:25:00 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: Drop the Microsoft & OS Discussion!
In-Reply-To: <E01938173443D411827A0050040DC0D6474367@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> from "Steve Robertson" at Oct 20, 0 03:09:41 pm
Message-ID: <m13miiu-000IyJC@p850ug1>

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From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: NatSemi 32000 (Was: RE: Drop the Microsoft & OS Discussion!)
In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB24C@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> from "Douglas Quebbeman" at Oct 20, 0 03:21:31 pm
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From healyzh at aracnet.com  Fri Oct 20 17:30:41 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: Preserving a Multics System
In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB252@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> from "Douglas Quebbeman" at Oct 20, 2000 04:48:03 PM
Message-ID: <200010202230.PAA17179@shell1.aracnet.com>

> > The 1 CPU DPS-8/70M with 4 MW, 1 IMU, 1 18x FNP, 2 FIPS tapes, 3 FIPS D
> and
> > 1 FIPS E disk that we ran at CGI/Perigon/ACTC consumed around 1.1 MWhr of
> > electricity a day running mostly the idle program. Based on current
> utility
> > rates in Calgary, that translates to about $2,000 CDN per month. This
> > included the AC load added to the room. The configuration cited is not the
> > minimal. 
> 
> This is why emulators are needed for the really old stuff, even if
> it does still run.

While it didn't run Multics I worked on DPS-8's running GCOS-8 from '90-93.  
That would be a fairly tiny system.  Going from fairly foggy memory you 
could probably fit it in a 15'x20' room, with space to spare.  We had a 
setup like that for our development system.  ISTR, that the basic CPU and
memory would take up about 10'x3', the disks are probably the size of short
19" Racks, and the tapes are a bit bigger.  It's been long enough I don't
remember which part a IMU is, but if it's what I think it is you can figure
about 6'x3', and I think the FNP (Frontend Network Processor) is in a 19"
rack.  The Operator console/desk probably takes up another 6'x5'.

As I said, that's about the size of the development system I worked on, the
production system was a quad-processor system and if we did *everything*
right we could take processors out of a running system or bring them back
in.  We had something like 8 tapes on the production system, a *LOT* of
disks, both fixed and removable, etc.

I wouldn't be surprised if Honeywell or Group Bull doesn't have an emulator
that will run on UNIX systems for the DPS-8.  After I left there I did a
little work on a DPS-6 system, which I helped decommission and move over to
HP9000/950's (think that was the right model).  All the software was pretty
much directly ported over, except one application which we ran via
emulation.

A DPS-8 emulator would be kind of cool, but to truely get the feel of it
you'd have to have nightmare of emulated panels!  A DPS-6 is pretty boring
comparied to a DPS-8.  In both cases I hated GCOS, but still wouldn't mind
running GCOS-8 or Multics at home for the fun of it via emulation.  Still
given what these systems were mostly used for and the fact that any
commercial systems were EOL'd back around '92 the odds of getting OS tapes
or anything else seems minimal.

Does anyone even know of any good DPS-8 information pages anywhere on the
net?

				Zane

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Fri Oct 20 17:46:39 2000
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: 95LX Connectivity Software
In-Reply-To: <200010202234.PAA24828@stockholm.ptloma.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010201546130.7575-100000@war.deltasoft.com>

Try using "loadfix <program.exe>" and see if that cures the error.

g.


On Fri, 20 Oct 2000, Cameron Kaiser wrote:

> Well, I got the HP 95LX Connectivity software for DOS and it doesn't work!
> (The disk says "Packed file is corrupt" when I run the install program.
> DOS 6.0 on a 486 laptop.)
> 
> Does anyone have an install disk they can zip up and send me? I do have
> the disks, but they just don't work.
> 
> -- 
> ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
>  Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu
> -- All things are possible, except skiing through a revolving door. -----------
> 
> 


From foo at siconic.com  Fri Oct 20 17:05:06 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: Last (or next to last) Multics System to be Decommissioned
In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB254@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010201504030.18624-100000@siconic.com>

On Fri, 20 Oct 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote:

> > And someone is going to acquire this hardware for posterity I assume??
> 
> Doubtful... this was a military machine, and although it didn't handle
> classified data, they didn't grant accounts to outsiders, which even
> the NSA did with the DOCKMASTER system until it was decomissioned in
> 1998.

Canadian military?  That's like the Boy Scouts here in the US :)  I'm sure
they don't have very many interesting secrets to keep.

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From foo at siconic.com  Fri Oct 20 17:12:12 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: Preserving a Multics System
In-Reply-To: <200010202230.PAA17179@shell1.aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010201510370.18624-100000@siconic.com>

On Fri, 20 Oct 2000 healyzh@aracnet.com wrote:

> Does anyone even know of any good DPS-8 information pages anywhere on the
> net?

Well, I did a Metacrawler search on "honeywell dps-8" but got sidetracked
by this site:

The Apollo On-board Computers
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/ap15fj/compessay.htm

If someone does find DPS-8 websites (or even DPS-6 since I have some)
please let me know so I can add them to the VCF Link Library.

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From jhellige at earthlink.net  Fri Oct 20 18:35:53 2000
From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: Recovering Sysadmin
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.4.21.0010201221570.475-100000@NameServer.Culver.Net>
References: <Pine.BSI.4.21.0010201221570.475-100000@NameServer.Culver.Net>
Message-ID: <a05001900b61686fa40c0@[63.23.230.112]>

	My wife and I have more or less compromised on the subject. 
I've got my computer stuff, which she quite often makes little 
comments about getting rid of at least some of, and she has her 
sizable collection of Barbie dolls.  Not to mention an antique 
grandfather clock and a few boxes of silver-age comic books.

	Jeff

>On Fri, 20 Oct 2000, Tim Harrison wrote:
>
>>  but she lost interest immediately upon seeing a 6' rack being trundled
>>  into the living room. 
>
>Outrageous!  And heck, it's only an 11/34!  What happens when you want to
>bring in that 11/70 when you see one?
>
>
>Well, you have three choices, as I see it:
>
>1) Dump the girlfriend, she's clearly mis-calibrated;
>
>or
>
>2) Marry her, because then she'll pretty much have to tolerate it, 'cause
>    divorce is even messier & costlier.
>
>or
>
>3) Remain single.  Quite a few collectors I know are single, and I'm pretty
>    sure that's because their houses and garages are full of computer stuff,
>    leaving no room for another person (let alone another person's stuff).
>
>
>-Mike C

-- 
            Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4
        Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems:
                 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757

From jhellige at earthlink.net  Fri Oct 20 18:56:32 2000
From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: Preserving a Multics System
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010201510370.18624-100000@siconic.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010201510370.18624-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <a05001901b6168bbf5fe1@[63.23.230.204]>

	Pretty cool article on the Apollo guidance system.  Whle 
we're on the topic of Honeywell computers....does anyone recall which 
model Honeywell was used onboard USN ships into the 80's for the 
SUADPS system?  Or for that matter, which Harris mini was used for 
the USN SNAP-II?

	thanks
	Jeff

>On Fri, 20 Oct 2000 healyzh@aracnet.com wrote:
>
>>  Does anyone even know of any good DPS-8 information pages anywhere on the
>>  net?
>
>Well, I did a Metacrawler search on "honeywell dps-8" but got sidetracked
>by this site:
>
>The Apollo On-board Computers
>http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/ap15fj/compessay.htm
>
>If someone does find DPS-8 websites (or even DPS-6 since I have some)
>please let me know so I can add them to the VCF Link Library.
>
>Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org

-- 
            Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4
        Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems:
                 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757

From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Fri Oct 20 19:14:53 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: Preserving a Multics System
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB257@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>

> Does anyone even know of any good DPS-8 information pages 
> anywhere on the net?

There's a little bit on it at

	http://www.multicians.org

but that's mostly covering the DPS-8/M. Actually, this site,
managed by Tom Van Vleck (an original Multician), is a great
example of how to organize a site to preserve info about a
vintage platform. It's mostly simply text web pages, with
links to some that have pictures. But the pages load quickly,
and I think you'll be impressed by the volume of information.

-doug q

From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Fri Oct 20 19:10:40 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: Preserving a Multics System
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB256@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>


> > This is why emulators are needed for the really old stuff, even if
> > it does still run.
> 
> Yes, but for the emulator to be useful, someone has to *save* 
> the software to run on it, and the documentation.
> 
> Even though this seems obvious, it's *amazing* how often it 
> doesn't happen.
> 
> So is anyone archiving the software for this Mulitcs system?

An archive of Multics exists at MIT. If my recent personal
experiences with 9 track magtape can be considered representative
and not anecdotal, then I think the tapes will still be readable
even ten years from now.

regards,
-doug q

From harrison at timharrison.com  Fri Oct 20 19:29:37 2000
From: harrison at timharrison.com (Tim Harrison)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: Last (or next to last) Multics System to be Decommissioned
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010201504030.18624-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <39F0E371.8EB1E2B7@timharrison.com>

Sellam Ismail wrote:

> Canadian military?  That's like the Boy Scouts here in the US :)  I'm sure
> they don't have very many interesting secrets to keep.

I suppose that's the price we pay for having a government that doesn't
spy on us all that much.

Somehow, I have the urge to read books about the outcome of the War of
1812. 

<ducking>

-- 


Tim Harrison
Network Engineer
harrison@timharrison.com
http://www.networklevel.com/

From healyzh at aracnet.com  Fri Oct 20 19:31:48 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: Preserving a Multics System
In-Reply-To: <a05001901b6168bbf5fe1@[63.23.230.204]> from "Jeff Hellige" at Oct 20, 2000 07:56:32 PM
Message-ID: <200010210031.RAA26254@shell1.aracnet.com>

> 	Pretty cool article on the Apollo guidance system.  Whle 
> we're on the topic of Honeywell computers....does anyone recall which 
> model Honeywell was used onboard USN ships into the 80's for the 
> SUADPS system?  Or for that matter, which Harris mini was used for 
> the USN SNAP-II?
> 
> 	thanks
> 	Jeff

The Honeywell was the DPS-6, and it was into the 90's.  I think the Harris 
was the H500 or H550.  The main thing I can remember about the Harris was 
that it had 4 80MB 8" Hard Drives.  Somewhere I've got a binder with
printouts of all the online doc's on the Harris.  

What I want is a copy of the one Star Trek game that ran on the Harris!  I 
barely remember it, but it was the coolist text based ST game I've seen, and 
wasn't one of the 10x10 grid games.  Also had probably the best version of 
Zork.

			Zane

From healyzh at aracnet.com  Fri Oct 20 19:33:37 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: Preserving a Multics System
In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB256@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> from "Douglas Quebbeman" at Oct 20, 2000 08:10:40 PM
Message-ID: <200010210033.RAA26380@shell1.aracnet.com>

> > So is anyone archiving the software for this Mulitcs system?
> 
> An archive of Multics exists at MIT. If my recent personal
> experiences with 9 track magtape can be considered representative
> and not anecdotal, then I think the tapes will still be readable
> even ten years from now.
> 
> regards,
> -doug q
> 

What kind of 9-Track tape drives can read these tapes though?  IIRC, the
drives we had on the DPS-8's were pretty much bog-standard 9-Tracks (I
remember writting a tape to be read on a Sun box).

				Zane

From west at tseinc.com  Fri Oct 20 19:37:04 2000
From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: classiccmp web page traffic report
Message-ID: <000701c03af7$09cdf6c0$528653d1@jay>

You know, it never dawned on me to tell people about this... i just thought
about it and took a look and was suprised at the statistics :)

For the traffic report of www.classiccmp.org, go to
http://webtrends.tseinc.com/www.classiccmp.org

Regards!

Jay West
PS - I'm still waiting for those two anonymous RK05 drives to show up, but
HP 7900A's will do just fine too :)


From jimdavis at gorge.net  Fri Oct 20 19:48:54 2000
From: jimdavis at gorge.net (Jim Davis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: NatSemi 32000
References: <NDBBLGPCOLFICAHOHKHLOEFFCCAA.rickb@bensene.com>
Message-ID: <39F0E7F6.5748586D@gorge.net>

I have a bunch of 6205 workstation boards, It was the bigger brother of the
61XX series. Strangely enough, The guy I'm working with at radisys designed
part of the IOP ( i/o processor ) on the 62xx series.
Jim Davis.

Rick Bensene wrote:

> Tektronix (the Oscilloscope people) built a line of early Unix workstations
> based on the National 16032 (which was the 16-bit bus version of the 32032).
> These machines were the Tektronx 6130 and the later Tektronix 4132.  I have
> running examples of each.  These machines ran a Tek-hacked version of 4.2bsd
> called UTek.  The machines were essentially a single-board
> computer that had the CPU, some on-board RAM (1MB), a ST-506 hard disk
> interface (on the 6130) or SCSI-I Interface (on the 4132) a floppy
> controller (on the 6130),   two serial ports, a GPIB port, an
> AUI connector for 10Mb Ethernet, and a bus interface that allowed various
> option boards (RAM, Async, Parallel, SCSI, GPIB) to be plugged in.
>
> These machines were actually pretty cool for their time...and if Tek
> would have marketed them properly, the could have competed with
> Sun's machines.  But, Tek was an instrumentation company, and they
> really didn't know very well how to market a Unix workstation. Tek
> made another attempt at the market with the 43xx workstations, but
> these used Motorola 68K and 88K CPU's, and never really did very will
> with them.
>
> Rick Bensene
> The Old Calculator Web Museum
> http://www.geocities.com/oldcalculators


From jimdavis at gorge.net  Fri Oct 20 19:54:02 2000
From: jimdavis at gorge.net (Jim Davis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: NatSemi 32000
References: <F51niSnRMWuLn5U9T3T00000f6c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <39F0E92A.242D408E@gorge.net>

BTW, If anyone needs replacement parts ( 32081, 32016, clock?, MMU?? )
drop me a message. I have 40-50 of each part still in tubes. Sorry, No
32032s :(

Jim Davis

Will Jennings wrote:

> I know a guy who worked on designing the Tektronics machine that used the
> NS32K family.. I've always wanted to ask him about the machine, design
> process, etc.. I also have the preliminary info on TI's 32000 products,
> since they second-sourced it.. I have the NS 32000 databook also..
>
> Will J
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> http://profiles.msn.com.


From jhellige at earthlink.net  Fri Oct 20 20:00:27 2000
From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: Preserving a Multics System
In-Reply-To: <200010210031.RAA26254@shell1.aracnet.com>
References: <200010210031.RAA26254@shell1.aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <a05001900b61699879e7d@[63.23.230.204]>

	I know that SUADPS as a whole is just now being phased out, 
but if the use of the DPS-6 to run it continued into the 90's, I 
would imagine it was just into the early, possibly mid 90's.  The 
last incarnation I used was run on UNIX from micro's, though it still 
looked exactly the same from a user's standpoint.  I never got to 
play Star Trek on the Harris systems, but the Honeywell, as used for 
SUADPS, had a nice version of it.  It wasn't accessible by the 
general user though.  It had a bug in it that allowed you to create 
energy, instead of using it, by simply putting in a large negative 
warp factor and moving even one sector over.

	Jeff

>  >	Pretty cool article on the Apollo guidance system.  Whle
>>  we're on the topic of Honeywell computers....does anyone recall which
>>  model Honeywell was used onboard USN ships into the 80's for the
>>  SUADPS system?  Or for that matter, which Harris mini was used for
>>  the USN SNAP-II?
>>
>>	thanks
>>	Jeff
>
>The Honeywell was the DPS-6, and it was into the 90's.  I think the Harris
>was the H500 or H550.  The main thing I can remember about the Harris was
>that it had 4 80MB 8" Hard Drives.  Somewhere I've got a binder with
>printouts of all the online doc's on the Harris. 
>
>What I want is a copy of the one Star Trek game that ran on the Harris!  I
>barely remember it, but it was the coolist text based ST game I've seen, and
>wasn't one of the 10x10 grid games.  Also had probably the best version of
>Zork.
>
>			Zane

-- 
            Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4
        Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems:
                 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757

From mac at Wireless.Com  Fri Oct 20 21:29:50 2000
From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: nice paper on Multics emacs
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.4.21.0010201927280.475-100000@NameServer.Culver.Net>

http://www.best.com/~thvv/mepap.html

As Eric pointed out, it's nice to keep the h/w, but it's even better if you
can keep the s/w!  (And, no, I don't know where to get a copy of Multics
emacs...)

-Mike C


From at258 at osfn.org  Fri Oct 20 22:18:13 2000
From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: Ibex at last.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010200700210.7363-100000@war.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.1001020230639.7171A-100000@osfn.org>


I literally stumbled over the iBEX manual uuhilst looking for something 
else this afternoon.

iBEX - King of the Mountain in Microcomputers (1982)

Martec International Electronics Corp.,
20 \/\/illiam Street, \/\/ellesley, MA 02181
617-237-2115

Models:
7000  5-1/4inch DSDD
7102  5-1/4inch DSDD
7103  5-1/4inch DSDD
7150  5-1/4inch DSDD, rigid drive
7202  8inch DSDD
7301  8inch DSDD, rigid drive
7500

All models sem to have been CP/M machines, except the 7500, npot covered 
in this manual, and described as "multi-user, multi-tasking" - MP/M?


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Fri Oct 20 23:15:25 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: Semi-OT: "Mining" Web Sites
Message-ID: <200010210415.VAA08165@shell1.aracnet.com>

OK, I've got a question that I'm really not sure how to go about looking for
the answer to.  I know that there used to be commercial products for the Mac
that did this several years ago, but I think their long gone.  Basically the
platform the software runs on doesn't matter as long as it isn't Windows.

I'm looking for a software package that can take a snapshot of a website for
archival purposes and go 'x' levels deep.  I want it to be able to snag
stuff such as PDF documents.  

The problem being that every time I turn around Compaq has managed to loose
even more of the old DEC hardware related documentation, and if it's still 
there it takes ages to find it.  I've saved numerous PDF files, but I'm now
wanting to do a better job of mirroring the data and preserving it.  

For an example of the problem good luck figuring out which old PCI video 
cards are supported by OpenVMS!

My thought is to archive specific area's and toss them on CD-R for latter
access via a web browser.  So something that can update the links to a local
disk structure is also needed.

I'm sure I'm not the only one experiencing simular problems, or having a
desire to do something like this.  I'm also fairly sure this kind of a tool
is of interest to this group.

			Zane

From harrison at timharrison.com  Fri Oct 20 23:48:24 2000
From: harrison at timharrison.com (Tim Harrison)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: Semi-OT: "Mining" Web Sites
References: <200010210415.VAA08165@shell1.aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <39F12018.F78DA096@timharrison.com>

healyzh@aracnet.com wrote:
 
> OK, I've got a question that I'm really not sure how to go about looking for
> the answer to.  I know that there used to be commercial products for the Mac
> that did this several years ago, but I think their long gone.  Basically the
> platform the software runs on doesn't matter as long as it isn't Windows.

Grab the UNIX software called wget.  You specify the site, and it will
recursively "archive" it locally for you, and you specify how recursive
you wish to get.

The first place I found it is at: 

http://sunsite.dk/wget/

-- 


Tim Harrison
Network Engineer
harrison@timharrison.com
http://www.networklevel.com/

From Mzthompson at aol.com  Sat Oct 21 00:00:50 2000
From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: Beginner into Micros, etc.
Message-ID: <9.c0b9bd2.27227d02@aol.com>

On 19 Oct 2000, Mike Ford <mikeford@socal.rr.com> wrote:

> Where can I put all this stuff I found.

Almost as difficult question as "What is the meaning of life".

The answer just came to me: "To be the winner of the contest: He who
dies with the most 'puters wins."

My latest haul included over 100 machines of the same brand.  I had to
rent a space at a local U-Store-It place.  I must be crazy.  More on
this haul later.

Mike

From Mzthompson at aol.com  Sat Oct 21 00:00:48 2000
From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: MMJ Info
Message-ID: <9c.858369b.27227d00@aol.com>

On Thu, 19 Oct 2000, Jerome Fine wrote:

> > [Snip]
> > The H8571-A and H8575-A are MMJ to DB25 (female) and are wired as follows:
> > MMJ     DB25
> >  1       20
> >  2        2
> >  3        7
> >  4        7
> >  5        3
> >  6        6 & 8
> > Also pins 4 & 5 of the DB25 are tied together
> > I have used the above using a standard DEC BC16E cable to connect to
> > a PC 25-pin serial port to use the PC as a terminal.
> 
> Jerome Fine replies:
> 
> I have one of the H8575-A, but have not yet done a continuity check to 
verify
> the connections that you state.  But I assume that you are correct.  One of 
these
> days I will attempt to verify that all of the above works with a VT320.  
Thank you.

These adapters are listed in a few DEC manuals, so that is the primary
source of the info.  In most cases I have verified the info as well.

> Any suggestions on how to verify the above?  Can a simple tester do this?

A simple VOM.  The hard part is staying connected to the pins.  To make
that a little easier I use some adapters I picked up years ago.  These
are banana jacks to D connector pins & sockets.  You can roll your own,
but they are made by Pomona Electronics, p/n's 3560 & 3561.  

> > The H8571-C and H8571-F are MMJ to DB25 (male) and are wired as follows:
> > MMJ     DB25
> >  1        6
> >  2        3
> >  3        7
> >  4        7
> >  5        2
> >  6       20
> 
> I have an H8571-F as well.  When I pried apart the DB25 from the housing,
> that was what I found.

I'm not one to say I told you so, but..... ;-)

> > And here is a summary on how the various signal lines match up to
> > each other on the different connectors.
> > Term  Term  MMJ                        MMJ port on DEC
> > DB25   DE9                             computer or Decserver
> >  20     4    1 --->-------------->----------------->--- 6
> >   2     3    2 --->-------------->----------------->--- 5
> >   7     5    3 ---------------------------------------- 4
> >   7     5    4 ---------------------------------------- 3
> >   3     2    5 ---<--------------<-----------------<--- 2
> >   6     6    6 ---<--------------<-----------------<--- 1
> 
> Seems very reasonable.  And it does work since I also connected up two
> VT320 terminals using two cables and one female DB25 and one male
> DB25 (i.e. one H8575-A and one H8571-F) after I had used just a
> single BC16E cable.
>
> However, I have two more VT320 terminals which I want to connect
> and I don't have at least one H8571-F.

I assume you meant "I don't have more than one H8571-F"
If you need, I got a couple spares.

> So here is the question.  Since we have both found the cost of the H8575-A
> and the H8571-F DB25 MMJ to DB25 connectors to be a bit high in the
> price (i.e. more than we want to pay), would it be reasonable to cut the
> cable in half and put an ordinary RJ11 phone connector on each cut
> end to produce TWO cables?  I also happen to have a couple of RJ11
> to DB25 connectors (male) to which I could then connect the newly mated
> RJ11 normal style.  That way, I would not need to have the DEC MMJ
> connectors.  However, there is one minor problem - you note that both
> pins 3 and 4 are connected to DB25 pin 7!  Must that be done?  The problem
> is that the RJ11 end has all 6 pins connected to 6 individual male 
components
> and it will be a hassle to attempt to connect both of pins 3 and 4 of the 
RJ11
> to DB25 pin 7 - to say the least.  May one be omitted and if so which one?

I'll use the standard engineering answer.  It depends.  That is to say it
depends on what you are trying to do.  There are times where you only need
certain lines, and there are times when you hook up all lines and it still
won't work.

I have had good luck in using just the transmit and receive data leads 
(MMJ 2 & 5 to DB25 pins 2 & 3, and of course ground) to use for example a
PC as a terminal hooked to a DEC machine.  If your going to hook a DEC
machine up to a modem then you are going to need the control lines as well.

On the other end, I attempted to use a Compaq portable one time as a
terminal and it did not work.  I figured the serial port was bad.
Later when I tried again, I found that the port was fine, but still
would not interface with a DEC machine.  I decided the reason had to
be due to the voltage levels.  A standard serial (if it exists) as defined
by RS232C should have a voltage swing from +15 (0) volts to -15 volts (1).
Granted you will find it implemented at +/- 12v, +/- 9v, etc.  These all
work as the spec defines the threshold as 5v, between +5 and -5 is undefined
and considered the transition zone.  Now look at DEC, which uses DEC-423 which
I assume is a derivative of RS423.  The voltage swing for 423 is +6 to -6 
volts
with the threshold being 200 mv.  I checked the DEC machine and sure enough
it was running at 6v.  I concluded the the Compaq was possibly designed
with a higher threshold volatge, and was not going to recognize the 6v
coming from the DEC machine.

> I think that this should be possible since I also happened to find another
> MMJ DB25 female connector which has the "funny" DEC offset, but
> without the DEC name.  In this case, I was also to pry the DB25 off the
> housing and found that pin 3 in the MMJ side was left hanging and not
> connected to anything.  

That's OK.  Pin 3 & 4 are both ground on the MMJ.  I'll bet MMJ-4 is
connected to DB25-7, so there is the ground connection.

> In addition, on the DB25 side, pin 6 was not
> connected to pin 8.

That should be OK, 6 - DSR Data Set Ready, 8 - Data Carrier Detect.  Here
again we are getting into modem control lines and may not be needed depending
on what you are trying to connect.  

> I have not had a chance to test with both the DEC
> (H8575-A) and the non-DEC DB25 female connectors with a VT320
> at each end, so I am not sure if the non-DEC version can be used.  But
> since the non-DEC (i.e. without the DEC label) has the "funny" DEC
> offset, I feel I can assume that it will probably work - in point of fact,
> I might have used that one when I did the VT320 to VT320 test.
> 
> If my suggestion is possible, then it should be very easy to convert any
> DEC BC16E cable into two cables with one end being used at the
> VT320 and the other (after being fitted with a standard RJ11 connector)
> to be used with a normal RJ11 to DB25 connector.

Tongue in cheek.  Oh my, he's gonna cut a BC16E cable into two pieces.
What's next, testing chain saws on Mac's, or removing spare parts from
heavy metal VAXen's with a propane torch. ;)

> Just though I would ask for some advice and suggestion.  Also, if anyone
> has already done this, and it worked, then I would know it is going to be
> OK.  If there was something I should be aware of and it has already be
> figured out, that would be helpful to know.  Note that the VT320 terminals
> will be used without a modem, so if all DEC parts were used, the BC16E
> cable with an H8571-F would first be used to convert to a standard
> DB25 male interface.  Then a null modem cable would be used to connect
> the DB25 male to the standard DB25 male on a DEC computer.  The
> key point is to attempt to become independent of the DEC "funny" offset
> within the first cable connected to the VT320.  The annoying part is that
> I have a number of RJ11 to DB25 convertors without the "funny" DEC
> offset plus a small amount of 6 and 8 wire cable that I can't use since
> I first have to overcome the "funny" DEC offset.

Jerome, it sounds like a plan.  But I have to ask, why the mindset about
the "funny" DEC offset?  Is my perspective askew?  By that I mean am I
living near the land of plenty?  I have gleened one building after a computer
outfit moved out and hauled cables out in multiple 30 gallon garbage bags.
Not all were MMJ cables, but got enough to do my thing.

OTOH I understand, I have concocted my share of workarounds over the years.

Mike

From donm at cts.com  Sat Oct 21 00:05:04 2000
From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: Ibex at last.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.1001020230639.7171A-100000@osfn.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.SCO.4.20.0010202203340.7126-100000@crash.cts.com>



On Fri, 20 Oct 2000, Merle K. Peirce wrote:

> 
> I literally stumbled over the iBEX manual uuhilst looking for something 
> else this afternoon.
> 
> iBEX - King of the Mountain in Microcomputers (1982)
> 
> Martec International Electronics Corp.,
> 20 \/\/illiam Street, \/\/ellesley, MA 02181
> 617-237-2115
> 
> Models:
> 7000  5-1/4inch DSDD
> 7102  5-1/4inch DSDD
> 7103  5-1/4inch DSDD
> 7150  5-1/4inch DSDD, rigid drive
> 7202  8inch DSDD
> 7301  8inch DSDD, rigid drive
> 7500

The 7202 and a 7203 were both 8" DSDD CP/M.  
 
> All models sem to have been CP/M machines, except the 7500, npot covered 
> in this manual, and described as "multi-user, multi-tasking" - MP/M?
 
Could also have been TurboDos.  
						 - don
 


From whdawson at mlynk.com  Sat Oct 21 00:08:22 2000
From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: Technical information for SWTPC equipment now on the web.
In-Reply-To: <200010210415.VAA08165@shell1.aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <000801c03b1c$ef487480$de9e72d1@cobweb.net>

Thanks to a very large jump start from Michael Holley,
swtpc.com now has some great technical content.  Most
of the main manuals are in pdf format and the
schematics are jpg's.  Along with lots of photos, there
are also scans of some early magazine articles 
relating to SWTPC equipment. 

A great big thanks also goes to Jay West.  Without
his kind and generous offer to host vintage computer
related sites, none of this would have been possible.

Thanks Jay and Michael.


Bill 

www.swtpc.com


From eric at brouhaha.com  Sat Oct 21 01:18:08 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: Semi-OT: "Mining" Web Sites
In-Reply-To: <200010210415.VAA08165@shell1.aracnet.com> (healyzh@aracnet.com)
References: <200010210415.VAA08165@shell1.aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <20001021061808.5966.qmail@brouhaha.com>

> I'm looking for a software package that can take a snapshot of a website for
> archival purposes and go 'x' levels deep.  I want it to be able to snag
> stuff such as PDF documents.  

GNU wget:

    wget -m -np http://www.compaq.com/some/path/to/interesting/stuff/

http://www.gnu.org/software/wget/wget.html

From eric at brouhaha.com  Sat Oct 21 01:29:56 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: volunteers requested (was Re: Beginner into Micros, etc.)
In-Reply-To: <9.c0b9bd2.27227d02@aol.com> (Mzthompson@aol.com)
References: <9.c0b9bd2.27227d02@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20001021062956.6047.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Mzthompson@aol.com wrote:
> The answer just came to me: "To be the winner of the contest: He who
> dies with the most 'puters wins."
> 
> My latest haul included over 100 machines of the same brand.  I had to
> rent a space at a local U-Store-It place.  I must be crazy.  More on
> this haul later.

You've got some catching up to do.  My 4-bedroom condo, 2-car garage,
and several *thousand* square feet of rental space are filled up with
old computers, documentation, etc.

I'll be picking up another 90 sq. ft. or so of old computers tomorrow
morning (Saturday 21-Oct) in Newport Beach.  I'm somewhat disapointed
that I wasn't able to get any local volunteers to help load it into the
truck.  :-( Fortunately a local friend is willing to fly down and drive
back with me, but more help would be most appreciated.  If anyone is
able to help, I'll buy them a meal and/or a few beers.  I may not be
able to read email there, so to contact me, send a *short* email message
with your telephone number to eric-oct21@brouhaha.com, and it will show
up on my cell phone.

There is a loading dock, so this shouldn't involve huge amounts of
back-breaking labor.

Eric


From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu  Sat Oct 21 01:46:34 2000
From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: 95LX Connectivity Software
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010201546130.7575-100000@war.deltasoft.com> from Gene Buckle at "Oct 20, 0 03:46:39 pm"
Message-ID: <200010210646.XAA21140@stockholm.ptloma.edu>

> Try using "loadfix <program.exe>" and see if that cures the error.

Sure does. Is that an undocumented command? I've never heard of it before.
Anyway, that cured it! Thanks!

(And thanks to Tony, who offered to send me a new copy, but I guess I don't
need it now. Thanks very much though!)

-- 
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
 Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- When in doubt, take a pawn. -- Mission: Impossible ("Crack-Up") ------------

From jpl15 at panix.com  Sat Oct 21 02:02:29 2000
From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: Collector Milestones (was:Re: volunteers requested)
In-Reply-To: <20001021062956.6047.qmail@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0010210253160.2740-100000@panix3.panix.com>



  Reading this, I am struck with the thought that a Classiccmper could be
considered fairly well 'mature' in the hobby when he/she begins to refer
to collectable items in terms of *area*.

 Eric wrote:

  "I'll be picking up another 90 sq. ft or so of old computers...."

 

 Some of us just got it bad....


  Cheers

John



From mac at Wireless.Com  Sat Oct 21 02:35:48 2000
From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:08 2005
Subject: Collector Milestones (was:Re: volunteers requested)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0010210253160.2740-100000@panix3.panix.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.4.21.0010210033510.475-100000@NameServer.Culver.Net>

Knowing Eric, I think it should be measured in *tons* ...   -Mike C

p.s. "mature"?  Next level of insanity?  ;-)


On Sat, 21 Oct 2000, John Lawson wrote:

> 
> 
>   Reading this, I am struck with the thought that a Classiccmper could be
> considered fairly well 'mature' in the hobby when he/she begins to refer
> to collectable items in terms of *area*.
> 
>  Eric wrote:
> 
>   "I'll be picking up another 90 sq. ft or so of old computers...."
> 
>  
> 
>  Some of us just got it bad....
> 
> 
>   Cheers
> 
> John
> 
> 
> 


From dpeschel at eskimo.com  Sat Oct 21 05:24:50 2000
From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: NatSemi 32000 (Was: RE: Drop the Microsoft & OS Discussion!)
In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB24C@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> from "Douglas Quebbeman" at Oct 20, 2000 03:21:31 PM
Message-ID: <200010211024.DAA07358@eskimo.com>

> Anyone familiar with them? Do any significant assembly
> language programming on one?

No, but I can tell you about some cool hardware.  (Unfortunately, I've never
seen it myself.)

First, there's the Ceres workstation designed at ETH Zurich by Miklaus Wirth
and his colleagues.  They had been using another locally-designed machine
called the Lillith, running an OS written in Modula-2.  (What else would you
expect from Wirth?).  Byte had a small sidebar about the Lillith,
incidentally.  It may have been in the famous Smalltalk issue, but I'm not
sure about that.  Anyway, the ETH people decided to create a successor. 
They made a new language (Oberon) and a new OS (also called Oberon).

The books _Project Oberon: the design of an operating system and compiler_
(by N. Wirth) and _The Oberon system: user guide and programmer's manual_
(by M. Reiser) cover the hardware, OS, and compiler in mostly complete
detail.  The Oberon OS is still available on modern machines -- see the FAQ
for comp.lang.oberon.  But the Ceres hardware is probably extinct.

Second, I believe Acorn made a 32016 "second processor" box for their BBC
Micro.  Those boxes connect to the main machine (2MHz 6502) via a 2MHz bus
(the Tube) with a semi-custom chip (with a couple of FIFOs and some
registers) at each end.  I believe the second processor has a stub OS in ROM
with entry points matching the ones in the main machine.  The main OS knows
how to process calls from the Tube and how to download software to the Tube.
I thin the OS on the 32016 second processor was TRIPOS.  I'm still sorting
out the conflicting docs -- one of them mentions UNIX but that might have
been scrapped.

-- Derek

From ghldbrd at ccp.com  Sat Oct 21 12:54:37 2000
From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: Beginner into Micros, etc.
In-Reply-To: <9.c0b9bd2.27227d02@aol.com>
Message-ID: <yam8329.1892.123917504@ccp.com>

Hello Mzthompson@aol.com

On 20-Oct-00, you wrote:

> On 19 Oct 2000, Mike Ford <mikeford@socal.rr.com> wrote:
> 
>> Where can I put all this stuff I found.
> 
> Almost as difficult question as "What is the meaning of life".
> 
> The answer just came to me: "To be the winner of the contest: He who
> dies with the most 'puters wins."
> 
> My latest haul included over 100 machines of the same brand.  I had to
> rent a space at a local U-Store-It place.  I must be crazy.  More on
> this haul later.
> 
> Mike

You very well might be crazy.  Not many others have that many computers on
hand, except maybe Best Buy, or Office Depot.

Remember, your addiction could be cars, or ships too, so count your
blessings --- all 100 of them.
> 
Regards
-- 
Gary Hildebrand
Box 7
West Branch, IA 52358

319-643-5952 x30
or

garyhildebrand@kwkb.com


From eric at brouhaha.com  Sat Oct 21 07:58:12 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: volunteers requested (was Re: Beginner into Micros, etc.)
In-Reply-To: <20001021062956.6047.qmail@brouhaha.com> (message from Eric Smith
	on 21 Oct 2000 06:29:56 -0000)
References: <9.c0b9bd2.27227d02@aol.com> <20001021062956.6047.qmail@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <20001021125812.9046.qmail@brouhaha.com>

I wrote:
> I'll be picking up another 90 sq. ft. or so of old computers tomorrow
> morning

That was a typo.  It's 90 sq. ft. of old computer.
                                                 ^ (singular)

Or, looking at it another way, it's 36 sq. ft. of old computer, and
54 sq. ft. of peripherals for it (six disk drives and two tape drives).

However, I'm getting rid of 70 sq. ft. of other, substantially less
interesting disk drives to make room for it.

From LFessen106 at aol.com  Sat Oct 21 08:08:17 2000
From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: Semi-OT: "Mining" Web Sites
Message-ID: <9b.bd43695.2722ef42@aol.com>

In a message dated Sat, 21 Oct 2000 12:21:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
healyzh@aracnet.com writes:

<< OK, I've got a question that I'm really not sure how to go about looking 
for
the answer to.  I know that there used to be commercial products for the Mac
that did this several years ago, but I think their long gone.  Basically the
platform the software runs on doesn't matter as long as it isn't Windows.

I'm looking for a software package that can take a snapshot of a website for
archival purposes and go 'x' levels deep.  I want it to be able to snag
stuff such as PDF documents.  
            Zane
 >>

You are looking for "wget" for Linux and it's (of course) free.
-Linc Fessenden


From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net  Sat Oct 21 11:35:16 2000
From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (Sue & Francois)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: Cold storage
Message-ID: <000b01c03b7c$e53345a0$0264a8c0@mediaone.net>

Hi all
I have to refer to the collective wisdom of the list.
Here's the problem:
I live in the frozen land of Minnesota, I have a 12'x16' shed full of empty
cardboard boxes, I have a house full (and I mean full) of computers.

Would it be safe for the computers to spend the winters in the cardboard
boxes in the shed?
Should I insulate the shed first?
Should I move to the shed and store the computers in the bedroom?

Thanks

Francois




From SUPRDAVE at aol.com  Sat Oct 21 10:03:41 2000
From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: Cold storage
Message-ID: <f2.3c4a9b5.27230a4d@aol.com>

In a message dated 10/21/00 10:42:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
fauradon@mn.mediaone.net writes:


>  Should I move to the shed and store the computers in the bedroom?


hmm, the answer seems obvious here...


DB Young         ICQ:  29427634

hurry, hurry, step right up!  see the computers you used as a kid! 

http://www.nothingtodo.org/classiccmp/museum.htm
                           

From jrasite at eoni.com  Sat Oct 21 10:18:18 2000
From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: Cold storage
References: <000b01c03b7c$e53345a0$0264a8c0@mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <39F1B3AD.E44871EE@eoni.com>

Thoughts...

Should be okay if:

you pull the cmos/pram batteries
you seal in plastic with dessicant

Of course, I could be wrong.  You might also check the typical
'environmental conditions' for the systems though I believe that
that's operational parameters...

Jim Arnott

From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net  Sat Oct 21 10:59:58 2000
From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (FBA)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: Cold storage
Message-ID: <000e01c03b77$fa13c300$c834d986@wkchafauradon.beckman.com>

Yeah I do not inted to operate any of them in the shed (no juice there).
I do not have the storage parameters for most of them so I'm looking for a
generality.
I will pull out all batteries and desolder the ones I can desolder.
Where can I find dessicant?
Francois

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Arnott <jrasite@eoni.com>
To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Date: Saturday, October 21, 2000 10:24 AM
Subject: Re: Cold storage


>Thoughts...
>
>Should be okay if:
>
>you pull the cmos/pram batteries
>you seal in plastic with dessicant
>
>Of course, I could be wrong.  You might also check the typical
>'environmental conditions' for the systems though I believe that
>that's operational parameters...
>
>Jim Arnott


From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Sat Oct 21 11:13:53 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: Preserving a Multics System
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB25A@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>

> > > So is anyone archiving the software for this Mulitcs system?
> > 
> > An archive of Multics exists at MIT. If my recent personal
> > experiences with 9 track magtape can be considered representative
> > and not anecdotal, then I think the tapes will still be readable
> > even ten years from now.
> > 
> What kind of 9-Track tape drives can read these tapes though? IIRC, the
> drives we had on the DPS-8's were pretty much bog-standard 9-Tracks (I
> remember writting a tape to be read on a Sun box).

Well, these tapes were written by Multics tape_archive command 
(the granddaddy of tar). Back in '93, someone at MIT used what 
I presume was tar on some Un*x to restore the archive to the MIT
Andrew File System. However, tar seems not to have handled the
Multics symbolic links occuring on the tape before the objects
to which they pointed, so not everything got restored.

In particular, the portion of the archive that should have
included the running binaries was not restored. This would
mean recompiling the system and generating the boot image,
but there's a worse problem...

The most serious problem with the archive, though, was that MIT
never had the source to the later Multics PL/I compiler, though
they did at one time have the source to the earlier one. But of
course the existing Multics source relies on the later compiler.

So, assuming the restored archive contains all the pieces of the
OS at the time the snapshot was taken, you'd still need to get
or reimplement a PL/I compiler for the Level 68 architecture
(a plain DPS-8 is a Level 61, IIRC, while the DPS-8/M is a 
level 68 machine, the original implementation of which was for
the Honeywell 6180 machine).

Ultimately, for a proper preservation, permission would have 
to be secured from Bull to run the OS, have the source, etc.
What exists at MIT is valuable for some research on how a
Multics was put together, but as a basis for a museum system
would leave many many man-years of reprogramming left to be
done. As a programmer, for me, that would be the fun part.

But I intend on contacting TPTB at MIT to see whether I 
could donate the labor to attempt a second, more proper
restoration of the archive, by using GNU TAR and making
whatever changes need to be made to it so that it does the
job right. Current plans are to contact them this time
next year.

-dq

From jhellige at earthlink.net  Sat Oct 21 11:32:00 2000
From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: Beginner into Micros, etc.
In-Reply-To: <yam8329.1892.123917504@ccp.com>
References: <yam8329.1892.123917504@ccp.com>
Message-ID: <a05001900b61774fd489d@[63.23.228.68]>

Gary,

	As someone who has done cars, I'll be the first to admit that 
these computers certainly take up a lot less room, at least for the 
micros!

	Jeff

>Remember, your addiction could be cars, or ships too, so count your
>blessings --- all 100 of them.
>>
>Regards
>--
>Gary Hildebrand
>Box 7
>West Branch, IA 52358
>
>319-643-5952 x30
>or
>
>garyhildebrand@kwkb.com

-- 
            Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4
        Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems:
                 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757

From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Sat Oct 21 11:36:24 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: nice paper on Multics emacs
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB25B@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>

> 
> http://www.best.com/~thvv/mepap.html
> 

That link could go away if Tom ever chose to re-host the site.
He says this link is the permanent one:

http://www.multicians.org/mepap.html

> As Eric pointed out, it's nice to keep the h/w, but it's even 
> better if you can keep the s/w!  (And, no, I don't know where 
> to get a copy of Multics emacs...)

Two problems: It's written in PL/I and MacLisp. While the source 
to both of those exist, Bernie has said parts of MacLisp utilize 
some of the special EIS instructions in the 6180 machine that may 
or may not have ever been completely documented, so it's really 
tied to the hardware.

But here's a teaser in the form of the comment block from the
Multics Emacs Incremental Redisplay module, which was written
in Lisp:

;;; ******************************************************
;;; *                                                    *
;;; *                                                    *
;;; * Copyright (c) 1978 by Massachusetts Institute of   *
;;; * Technology and Honeywell Information Systems, Inc. *
;;; *                                                    *
;;; *                                                    *
;;; ******************************************************
;;;
;;;
;;;	Multics EMACS Redisplay
;;;	Greenberg, March 1978
;;;	3/6/78 inceptus Luna meo adjutorio.
;;;	4/19/78 duas fenestras feci.
;;;	5/30/78 ^V creavi.
;;;	6/18/78 signum linearum elongatarum, ^0^L, &c
;;;	7/5/78  Cuncta lineae comparandae sunt, quicumque sint.
;;;	7/27/78 Ostendae sunt lineae quae non in textu sunt.
;;;	8/23/78 Dua fenestrae tacebant, atque mundae factae erant.
;;;	9/6/78 Indices linearum originalum per fenestris comparo.
;;;	3/1/79 Quando laboro in medio linearum elongatarum, omnes moveatur.
;;;	4/4/79 Minibuffer in multos divisus est.
;;;	4/12/79 Mille fenestrae florent.
;;;	8/24/79 ^V et ESC-V argumentes dedi.
;;;	Septembri 1979 hoc redisplicator Paltere sustenetur.
;;;	2/12/80 tty-no-cleolp impletur,
;;;		mode-line-hook & local-display-end-string
;;;	10/23/80 Praefix minibufferis non delendum est.
;;;       1980 Decembri e manibus meis dimissi te ut sole per mundum
ambules.
;;;
;;;	Welcome to the rosy-fingered dawn of the New Era:
;;;	Presenting, at popular demand;
;;;	A Comment In English!
;;;
;;;	30 June 1981 Extending local displays, Richard Mark Soley
;;;	1 July 1981 suppress-remarks and minibuffer-clear-all, Richard Soley
;;;	5 November 1981 truncate overlength modelines, Richard Soley
;;;	19 August 1982 fixed inverse-real-world-xcoord for \c lines,
;;;		     Barry Margolin
;;;	20 August 1982 added CAH's real underlining code, Barry Margolin
;;;	12 October 1982 modified underlining to use constant 400, Barmar
;;;

-dq


From claudew at sprint.ca  Sat Oct 21 11:54:02 2000
From: claudew at sprint.ca (Claude)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: Cold storage
References: <000b01c03b7c$e53345a0$0264a8c0@mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <39F1CA2A.1B8A4A3F@sprint.ca>

Sue & Francois wrote:
> 
> Hi all
> I have to refer to the collective wisdom of the list.
> Here's the problem:
> I live in the frozen land of Minnesota, I have a 12'x16' shed full of empty
> cardboard boxes, I have a house full (and I mean full) of computers.

I would not submit my computer collection to the low low temperatures
you get in Minnesota (like here in Quebec)...

One answer for more space : SHELVES, SHELVES, SHELVES...I taught I was
running outta space until I installed approx a total of 48 feet (3 times
16 feet of 16" wide shelves seperated by 14") attached to drywall with
metal brackets. About $8-$10 for the 8 foot long white wood shelves and
$1 for each bracket. A good investement...

Second : do regular clean ups...Yes you might throw away something that
can be used one day...but still...space is space...I rather have less
stuff all clean and neat then a ton of stuff in a mess...but thats me...

For "home" PC collecting it is great. Most of my collection (Atari,
Apple, Macs, Trs80s...) is there and can be admired and connected and
booted in less then 2-3 minutes...But I don't think the drywall and
shelves could hold up a VAX...

Claude

> 
> Would it be safe for the computers to spend the winters in the cardboard
> boxes in the shed?
> Should I insulate the shed first?

I would not let my collection live in sub 0 temperatures.

> Should I move to the shed and store the computers in the bedroom?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Francois

From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net  Sat Oct 21 12:11:46 2000
From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (FBA)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: Cold storage
Message-ID: <000c01c03b82$076a5410$c834d986@wkchafauradon.beckman.com>

I'm already up to the ceiling, check out the picture on my home page:
http://people.mn.mediaone.net/fauradon/index.html
On top of that I have the laundry room wall (the one without the appliances)
loaded up from floor to ceiling.
At this point I have exhausted all storage solutions for in house storage
and I can't even get to the far end of my office without planning the trip
at least a week in advance :)
Right now the only choice is OUT. That means the shed or a rental space.
I would much prefer the shed.
Thanks
Francois



-----Original Message-----
From: Claude <claudew@sprint.ca>
To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Date: Saturday, October 21, 2000 11:53 AM
Subject: Re: Cold storage


>Sue & Francois wrote:
>>
>> Hi all
>> I have to refer to the collective wisdom of the list.
>> Here's the problem:
>> I live in the frozen land of Minnesota, I have a 12'x16' shed full of
empty
>> cardboard boxes, I have a house full (and I mean full) of computers.
>
>I would not submit my computer collection to the low low temperatures
>you get in Minnesota (like here in Quebec)...
>
>One answer for more space : SHELVES, SHELVES, SHELVES...I taught I was
>running outta space until I installed approx a total of 48 feet (3 times
>16 feet of 16" wide shelves seperated by 14") attached to drywall with
>metal brackets. About $8-$10 for the 8 foot long white wood shelves and
>$1 for each bracket. A good investement...
>
>Second : do regular clean ups...Yes you might throw away something that
>can be used one day...but still...space is space...I rather have less
>stuff all clean and neat then a ton of stuff in a mess...but thats me...
>
>For "home" PC collecting it is great. Most of my collection (Atari,
>Apple, Macs, Trs80s...) is there and can be admired and connected and
>booted in less then 2-3 minutes...But I don't think the drywall and
>shelves could hold up a VAX...
>
>Claude
>
>>
>> Would it be safe for the computers to spend the winters in the cardboard
>> boxes in the shed?
>> Should I insulate the shed first?
>
>I would not let my collection live in sub 0 temperatures.
>
>> Should I move to the shed and store the computers in the bedroom?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Francois


From foo at siconic.com  Sat Oct 21 11:49:41 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: Cold storage
In-Reply-To: <000b01c03b7c$e53345a0$0264a8c0@mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010210949210.19625-100000@siconic.com>

On Sat, 21 Oct 2000, Sue & Francois wrote:

> Would it be safe for the computers to spend the winters in the cardboard
> boxes in the shed?
> Should I insulate the shed first?
> Should I move to the shed and store the computers in the bedroom?

Intuition tells me you defintely want to insulate the shed, as well as
shield it from critters.

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Oct 21 12:34:00 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: NatSemi 32000 (Was: RE: Drop the Microsoft & OS Discussion!)
In-Reply-To: <200010211024.DAA07358@eskimo.com> from "Derek Peschel" at Oct 21, 0 03:24:50 am
Message-ID: <m13n2Wz-000IyJC@p850ug1>

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From spc at conman.org  Sat Oct 21 13:54:10 2000
From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: Semi-OT: "Mining" Web Sites
In-Reply-To: <200010210415.VAA08165@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at Oct 20, 2000 09:15:25 PM
Message-ID: <200010211854.OAA28312@conman.org>


From spc at conman.org  Sat Oct 21 13:57:48 2000
From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: Semi-OT: "Mining" Web Sites
In-Reply-To: <200010210415.VAA08165@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at Oct 20, 2000 09:15:25 PM
Message-ID: <200010211857.OAA28322@conman.org>

It was thus said that the Great healyzh@aracnet.com once stated:
> 
> I'm looking for a software package that can take a snapshot of a website for
> archival purposes and go 'x' levels deep.  I want it to be able to snag
> stuff such as PDF documents.  

  Look for a program called ``wget''.  It comes with Linux but it should run
fine under Unix in general.  And Lynx might have the same functionality, but
don't quote me on that 8-)

  -spc (Has used wget several times before.  Cool program)


From wmsmith at earthlink.net  Sat Oct 21 14:33:21 2000
From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: Swapping CRTs
References: <000701c03af7$09cdf6c0$528653d1@jay>
Message-ID: <022701c03b95$c5fafca0$fa99b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net>

I have an IBM System 23 with a badly burned screen.
The CRT is a 12 inch monochrome green screen.  Does
anyone know whether I can replace the CRT with the 12"
green monitor CRT that came with the original IBM PC
(and which are easy to find)?  The model no. of that
monitor is 5131?

Even pure speculation as to whether this would work
would be appreciated.  Thanks.


From lgwalker at look.ca  Sat Oct 21 14:56:43 2000
From: lgwalker at look.ca (Lawrence Walker)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: Cold storage
In-Reply-To: <000c01c03b82$076a5410$c834d986@wkchafauradon.beckman.com>
Message-ID: <39F1BCBB.22397.47A3B33@localhost>



> I'm already up to the ceiling, check out the picture on my home page:
> http://people.mn.mediaone.net/fauradon/index.html On top of that I
> have the laundry room wall (the one without the appliances) loaded up
> from floor to ceiling. At this point I have exhausted all storage
> solutions for in house storage and I can't even get to the far end of
> my office without planning the trip at least a week in advance :)
> Right now the only choice is OUT. That means the shed or a rental
> space. I would much prefer the shed. Thanks Francois
> 
 At one time I operated a "roadie" business out of Montreal and we 
would often move band equipment to many northern venues during 
the winter in very extreme temperatures. The travel times could be,
quite lengthy and only the cab was heated. On the longer runs it 
might be late evening before we arrived with temperatures 
sometimes down to -50 .(sounding like a "when I was a kid" story
but true, never-the-less). The current wisdom was that the worst
thing you could do was immediately move the equipment into a 
heated space, and many times would be left overnight when it was 
very cold to be moved in and slowly warmed up before using. The 
only casualty I remember was an amp that one of the musicians
immediately moved into the heated bandroom, despite our 
admonissions, and turning it on. after arriving in Chicoutimi from 
Montreal in sub-zero temperatures, IIRC an 8hr trip.
 Since most electronics are built to withstand high temperatures,
it stands to reason that they should also be able to withstand lower 
ones. The biggest problem being brittleness when subject to jars or
rapid heating which would act on minute flaws due to expansion.
 I am going to be moving myself and most of my collection to my 
retirement home in central Manitoba (a hop-skip-and jump away 
from you) next fall, and will be facing similiar problems. There is 
also a shed I intend to use for storage.
 I would do some insulation and make sure it is free from moisture,
leaky roof etc. If you're very concerned you might do what we did in
the chicken coop when I was a kid there and leave a light on during 
extreme cold. Can't recall ever losing a chicken :^)   Don't know 
what we used before being electified. Maybe a coal-oil lamp. 
 A bigger problem might be critters and insects.

ciao		larry






Reply to:
lgwalker@look.ca

From jhfine at idirect.com  Sat Oct 21 15:10:40 2000
From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: volunteers requested (was Re: Beginner into Micros, etc.)
References: <9.c0b9bd2.27227d02@aol.com> <20001021062956.6047.qmail@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <39F1F83F.22C163AB@idirect.com>

>Eric Smith wrote:

> You've got some catching up to do.  My 4-bedroom condo, 2-car garage,
> and several *thousand* square feet of rental space are filled up with
> old computers, documentation, etc.

Jerome Fine replies:

I am focused exclusively on old PDP-11 Qbus, system, so I don't
get as much volume here in Toronto - thankfully or I would have had
to choose between a 40 year old computer or a 40 year old marriage.
As it is, even with just the DEC stuff, it hovers between the last two
choices.

> I'll be picking up another 90 sq. ft. or so of old computers tomorrow
> morning (Saturday 21-Oct) in Newport Beach.  I'm somewhat disapointed
> that I wasn't able to get any local volunteers to help load it into the
> truck.  :-( Fortunately a local friend is willing to fly down and drive
> back with me, but more help would be most appreciated.  If anyone is
> able to help, I'll buy them a meal and/or a few beers.  I may not be
> able to read email there, so to contact me, send a *short* email message
> with your telephone number to eric-oct21@brouhaha.com, and it will show
> up on my cell phone.

I guess I pay too much attention to details, but which single computer is it
you are going to pick up.  Sorry I can't help from Toronto, but the air
fare is just a bit too much to LA.  Mind you, I once went to visit my
son in Calgary and ended up with the insides of a BA23 box - I found
I could not fit the BA23 into any suitcase I had and even the power
supply was not a cost effective/weight effective/volume effective choice
relative to having 3 as spares already back in Toronto.  The insides
even included a ST8760E and controller - not much of a find 4 years
ago, but satisfying since my first large hard drive of 600 MBytes was
6 times the price for the same drive about 10 years ago at a sell off.

Sincerely yours,

Jerome Fine


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Oct 21 15:18:12 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: Swapping CRTs
In-Reply-To: <022701c03b95$c5fafca0$fa99b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> from "Wayne M. Smith" at Oct 21, 0 12:33:21 pm
Message-ID: <m13n55r-000IyHC@p850ug1>

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From jrasite at eoni.com  Sat Oct 21 17:54:35 2000
From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: Cold storage
References: <39F1BCBB.22397.47A3B33@localhost>
Message-ID: <39F21EAA.33A61170@eoni.com>

I had occasion to glance at the environmental specs for my
PowerComputing PowerCurve and they state that for 'storage', -40/+122
deg F is acceptable.  Yup, forty below.

"Environmental Requirements
- Operating temperature: 10 - 40 degrees C (50 - 104
degrees F)
- Storage Temperature: -40 - 50 degrees C (-40 - 122
degrees F)
- Relative Humidity: 5% - 95% noncondensing
- Altitude: 0 - 3048m (0 - 10000 ft)"  

Move 'em into the shed!

Jim Arnott

From wmsmith at earthlink.net  Sat Oct 21 17:58:35 2000
From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: Swapping CRTs
References: <m13n55r-000IyHC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <023301c03bb2$72126700$fa99b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net>

> > I have an IBM System 23 with a badly burned screen.
> > The CRT is a 12 inch monochrome green screen.  Does
> > anyone know whether I can replace the CRT with the
12"
> > green monitor CRT that came with the original IBM
PC
> > (and which are easy to find)?  The model no. of
that
> > monitor is 5131?
>
> IIRC the IBM PC MDA monitor is a 5151, not a 5131,
but anyway...
>
> How many pins does the System 23 CRT have? If it's
got 7 pins in a
> 'modified B7G' arrangement -- like a 7 pin miniature
valve with a
> seal-off tube in the middle and _no_ plastic shell
with a locator, then
> it's likely to work
>
> Basically, there are 2 common classes of monochrome
CRT. 7 pin (modified
> B7G) with a 12V heater or 8 pin (B8H) with a 6.3V
heater. Within a class
> you're likely to have few problems swapping them.
>
> Keep the yoke with the monitor it goes with -- these
are much less
> generic than CRTs. Undo the clamp around the back end
of the yoke and
> carefully silde the yoke off towards the back of the
monitor. Don't force
> it -- if it won't come off easily, take the clamp
right off, and use a
> screwdriver to _carefully_ spread the slits in the
yoke's clamp tube to
> free it.
>
> -tony

It's the same 7-pin arrangement according to my
maintenance documentation (I haven't opened up the unit
yet).  The documentation also indicates that the CRT is
interchangeable with several other models, which is
encouraging.  BTW, you're right, it's a 5151 not a
5131.  Thanks for the excellent help.

-W


From marvin at rain.org  Sat Oct 21 18:12:39 2000
From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: Cold storage
References: <000e01c03b77$fa13c300$c834d986@wkchafauradon.beckman.com>
Message-ID: <39F222E7.4A52CF99@rain.org>


FBA wrote:
> 
> Where can I find dessicant?

Among other places, you can get dessicant at gun stores since it is used to
help keep guns dry.

From Mzthompson at aol.com  Sat Oct 21 20:02:14 2000
From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: Idiotic people who do not know the value of classic equipment
Message-ID: <3f.bb021c8.27239696@aol.com>

And the sad part is that the idiots are everywhere, including a local
instituition of higher learning.  I have said it before, and probably
even on this forum, that being a member of such an instituition in no way
indicates any common sense whatsoever.  The latest just proves that
it applies to just plain smarts as well.

One of my friends who works there (until recently) returned from vacation
a few weeks back to find that much documentation had been pitched, including
the documentation for the currently in use machines and operating systems.

Last year, while he was on vacation, they managed to fill a dumpster with
DEC hardware, VAXstations, DECstations, uVAX 2000's to name some.  He had
already made arrangements for he and I to haul it off and we were just
waiting for some warmer weather.  He managed to dive and save a few, but
the students who did the actual tossing had 'popped' the monitors.  It
was just to dangerous to dive very deep.

There is a good side to this story though.  Last month he heard the rumor
of the decision to pitch some more and moved on it quickly.  We started
hauling almost immediately.  In addition to the 100 BrandX machines 
mentioned in another post yesterday, they also allowed us to take a few 
DEC & SUN machines.

He has since then left for greener pastures, but we believe we now have 
them 'trained' to call us as they retire more DEC in the near future.
Only time will tell.

Mike

From Mzthompson at aol.com  Sat Oct 21 20:02:17 2000
From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: Beginner into Micros, etc.
Message-ID: <f5.3cdd2c7.27239699@aol.com>

Eric Smith <eric@brouhaha.com> wrote:

> Mzthompson@aol.com wrote:
> 
> > The answer just came to me: "To be the winner of the contest: He who
> > dies with the most 'puters wins."
> > 
> > My latest haul included over 100 machines of the same brand.  I had to
> > rent a space at a local U-Store-It place.  I must be crazy.  More on
> > this haul later.
> 
> You've got some catching up to do.  My 4-bedroom condo, 2-car garage,
> and several *thousand* square feet of rental space are filled up with
> old computers, documentation, etc.

Darn, don't you just hate when we get into a size enumeration contest.
Remember what they say "Size doesn't matter."

Actually Eric, I had to rent the storage space, the three car garage
which also contains two other rooms 8x20 & 8x10, and a good size loft
were already full.  And although there is still room in the 30x40 barn
with its loft, I only use it for the stuff that is probably destined 
for the recyclers/scrappers.

I would like to have had it closer so I could test this stuff easier,
but had no choice.

And then Gary Hildebrand <ghldbrd@ccp.com> wrote:

> You very well might be crazy.  Not many others have that many computers on
> hand, except maybe Best Buy, or Office Depot.

> Remember, your addiction could be cars, or ships too, so count your
> blessings --- all 100 of them.

Thank you, Gary.  You need not look farther than Iowa to find words
of wisdom and the good side of the situation. If only my SO could
see the silver lining. ;-)

Mike

From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Sat Oct 21 21:35:07 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: Cold storage
In-Reply-To: <000b01c03b7c$e53345a0$0264a8c0@mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001021213507.3cbfacdc@mailhost.intellistar.net>

At 09:35 AM 10/21/00 -0700, you wrote:
>Hi all
>I have to refer to the collective wisdom of the list.
>Here's the problem:
>I live in the frozen land of Minnesota, I have a 12'x16' shed full of empty
>cardboard boxes, I have a house full (and I mean full) of computers.
>
>Would it be safe for the computers to spend the winters in the cardboard
>boxes in the shed?


   I think so but I'd put each one in a plastic bad adn seal it first to
prevent condensation.


>Should I insulate the shed first?

   I doubt it would help unless you have at least some heat in the shed.

>Should I move to the shed and store the computers in the bedroom?

   That might be a good idea but I doubt you could convince your wife to
move out there too. I know I couldn't convince mine! 

     Joe
>
>Thanks
>
>Francois
>
>
>
>


From THETechnoid at home.com  Sat Oct 21 20:25:53 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: Cold storage
In-Reply-To: <39F1BCBB.22397.47A3B33@localhost>
Message-ID: <20001022013232.YYBL26644.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

LGwalker's advice is right on the money.

Last winter I deinstalled a 9 track drive from a dry, unheated warehouse
in sub-zero centigrade conditions.  I brought the drive home and left it
sit for several hours before installing it in my DG minicomputer.

The trick is as simple as the directions that come with most hard disks
and computers these days.  Don't subject the device to any sharp change in
temperature and then try to operate it without letting it 'aclimate'.

I think that it is probably not good to store sensitive gear at
temperatures that humans can't exist in though.  If you could wrap up and
live, then your gear is probably just fine as-is.

One thing that was not mentioned is static electricity.  Just be careful. 
Cold conditions and proper storage mean a high risk for electrostatic
discharge.

The other point that was made was a small heat source in the shed.  That
sounds like a fantastic idea and wouldn't be too burdensome energy-wise. A
single 100 watt lightbulb produces as much heat as three humans properly
weatherized. If you have ever cuddled up next to a human, you know that's
a lot of heat. ;-)  I'd bother only if the temperatures got WAY below
freezing. At very low temperatures, the lubricants used in drive motors
and such might be negatively affected as might batteries, and flexible
materials such as rubber or latex. I know this from maintaning vehicles in
the Seabees.  Some lubricants turn to slush at extremely low temperatures. 
Even Gasoline will freeze. In Alaska, we would leave a drop-light inside
the engine compartment of a vehicle to prevent the oil from freezing.

As with my 30 year old BMW motorcycle, it is a good idea to perform
preventative maintainence post-storage prior to use.  Check all bearings
to make sure they are free etc. I love that bike.  Chrissy wants me to
sell it and buy a new(er) one, but I say 'over my dead body'. I'll get a
newer bike, but not by selling my baby Beemer.

Regards,

Jeff

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Sat Oct 21 21:59:44 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: Cold storage
In-Reply-To: <000e01c03b77$fa13c300$c834d986@wkchafauradon.beckman.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001021215944.3657cd12@mailhost.intellistar.net>

At 10:59 AM 10/21/00 -0500, you wrote:
>Yeah I do not inted to operate any of them in the shed (no juice there).
>I do not have the storage parameters for most of them so I'm looking for a
>generality.
>I will pull out all batteries and desolder the ones I can desolder.
>Where can I find dessicant?

   Go to the store and buy some "Damp-Rid" or other dessicant that's used
to prevent mildew in closets.  However I don't think mositure will be much
of a problem in your climate. The worst situation would be for the stuff to
get cold then to be exposed to warm humid air (like if you take it inside).
As long as you let it get cold and stay cold it will probably be fine. If
you have to take something inside, let it warm up is a DRY place like a
garage if you can. Let it warm up thoroughly and try to keep a fan blowing
on it to prevent condensation. Since it almost never gets very cold here
(Florida) this may sound strnage but conndensation here is a real bitch!
Stuff cools off at night but then as the day starts to warm up moisture
condenses on EVERYTHING.  Our humidity is so high that the dew point is
often well into the 70 degree F range,so moisture condenses on anything
that's cooler. I have a hell of a time keeping tools and such from rusting
in un-air conditioned buildings. The more massive the item, the more it
holds the cold and the more moisture forms on it. I can find puddles on my
lathe (~2500 pounds) and milling machine (~1000 pounds) nearly every
morning of the year.

   Joe


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Sat Oct 21 21:13:44 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: Cold storage
Message-ID: <023801c03bce$64c41e10$82799a8d@ajp166>

>   I think so but I'd put each one in a plastic bad adn seal it first to
>prevent condensation.


Add silica gell to keep it dry in the bag.

Prevent vermin from attacking it or nesting in it.

Cold will generally not hurt anything.  Heat can be worse.

>>Should I insulate the shed first?


Wouldn't hurt but making sure the wildlife don't go in and out all 
the time is important.

Allison


From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Sat Oct 21 22:19:07 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: Cold storage
In-Reply-To: <000c01c03b82$076a5410$c834d986@wkchafauradon.beckman.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001021221907.34ff8e8e@mailhost.intellistar.net>

At 12:11 PM 10/21/00 -0500, Francois wrote:
>I'm already up to the ceiling, check out the picture on my home page:
>http://people.mn.mediaone.net/fauradon/index.html


   Chuckle! That looks about like my house but mine is piled higher.
Perhaps we should all post a picture of our houses and we can have a
cluttered house contest! :-)  FWIW I already have THREE sheds full of stuff
in the back.

   But I doubt anyone can top one of the guys that I know down here. His
house was FULL. I mean stuff stacked neatly and tightly from floor to
ceiling in EVERY room. He had tiny pathways throughout the house but some
rooms were completely filled and the doorways blocked solid.  In addition,
he had OVER fifty large cars (Cadilacs and Lincolns) outside and they were
all full! Furthermore he had rows and rows and rows of large garden sheds
(12x20 feet) and they were all full.  To top it all off he had rows and
rows of stuff sitting on pallets up on blocks.  Now THAT'S a pack rat!

    Joe


From ncherry at home.net  Sat Oct 21 21:35:53 2000
From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: Microvax II boards
Message-ID: <39F25289.935B36A9@home.net>

OK, I have my Microvax II KA-630 (thanks Carlos) and I now need to
completely understand it. I have discovered the follow boards are in
it:

KA-630 (CPU w/FPU and 1 Meg RAM)
Nemonix NXII-16 (half filled, Meg of RAM)
M7608 RAM (4Meg I think)
M7516 (DELQA Ethernet adapter)
M7555 (2x MFM Disk controller)

SI Part # 981-4617 (ESDI board? SCD-RQD11/EC)

RCI - Recognition Concepts INC. NO 100220 - Has a TRW 1007J1C3 8451/AP
      (Analog?)

M5976-SA KZQSA (SCSI)

Ok this machine has 1 MFM drive (~50M) and another drive (which I haven't
kooed up yet). I hope to build the IDE interface in the next few months
to save money on the drives. I can get a 760M ESDI drive for ~$300(US).

Now the SCSI is borrowed from a BA213 (hence the SA) I intend on knocking
out the rivets and making it usable in both machines. I may also upgrade
the Nemonix to 15M to get a full 16M. I already have 3 2.5G SCSI (and a 9G
SCSI-3 drive, yea I know ...).

Does anyone recognize the SI board or the RCI board? What is the minimum
size drive for loading VMS 7.2? Any other thoughts? My fingers are itching
to learn VMS?

One other question, what command do I need to remount the drives on a
Microvax II? My machines go off line and I don't know what commands to
type to get them back.

Thanks.

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

From jhfine at idirect.com  Sat Oct 21 21:45:41 2000
From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: MMJ Info
References: <Pine.SUN.4.10.10010192207340.27771-100000@flatland.dimensional.com>
Message-ID: <39F254D5.FE7E4E6F@idirect.com>

>William Fulmor wrote:

> > The key point is to attempt to become independent of the DEC "funny" offset
> > within the first cable connected to the VT320.  The annoying part is that
> > I have a number of RJ11 to DB25 convertors without the "funny" DEC
> > offset plus a small amount of 6 and 8 wire cable that I can't use since
> > I first have to overcome the "funny" DEC offset.
> The following took less than 15 minutes (testing included):

Jerome Fine replies:

I appreciate the suggestion made below, however, I believe that I
have located someone with some RJ11 blanks and a press.  ASAP,
I will cut the current cable I have to test my concept.  If that works,
I will not need to file anything - plus the connections should be as
stable and firm as with DEC hardware.  Otherwise, I will try out
your method.  Thank you.

> Using a utility knife or small diagonal wire cutters, cut the retainer
> clip portion from an RJ11.  Just cut the thin springy portion.
>
> Look carefully at the remaining portion of the RJ11.  Name the side with
> the contacts the 'bottom'.  You will see that the 'top' has a ridge of
> plastic at the front edge protruding above the flat surface of the 'top'.
> The ridge is perhaps 1/16 inch, or less, high.
>
> Look at the opening of the MMJ, with the MMJ oriented with the contacts on
> the 'bottom'.  You will see that the plastic ridge on the RJ11 will
> conflict with the 'ceiling' of the MMJ, but only for a length of
> approximately 1/16 inch on the right-hand corner of the ridge.
>
> Using a small, not too coarse file (in a pinch, a nail file would probably
> work), file down approximately 1/16 inch of the right-hand coner of the
> ridge on the RJ11.  As your file approaches the body of of the RJ11,
> switch to cut - and - fit mode.
>
> When the RJ11 fits into the MMJ, stop filing.
>
> I did this to an RJ11 crimped to a 6 conductor lead.  I achieved a snug
> fit which, while not locked in place, will probably stay mated to the
> HB571-C into which it was inserted for any reasonable use.  The HB571-C is
> covered in a sort of rubberized plastic shell which might provide more
> friction than a harder plastic on, say, a terminal.
>
> I tested the continuity of the connections for each of the 6 conductors in
> the lead.  Each conductor mapped to one of pins 2,3,6, or 20 of the
> HB571-C; two conductors mapped to pin 7 (assuming I counted the *&^%@#%
> pins right).  Factory prepared 6 conductor leads with crimped RJ11
> connectors are available in almost any length with the conductors in
> either 'rolled' or not 'rolled' configuration.
>
> I have not tried to use this to connect any equipment.
>
> YMMV, but it should be a cheap way to defeat this particular DECism.

I think that the most satisfying part of the procedure is being able to
defeat the DECism.  Seems like you enjoyed it as well.

Sincerely yours,

Jerome Fine


From jhfine at idirect.com  Sat Oct 21 21:45:48 2000
From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: Vax Station 3100
References: <200010180527.XAA08936@calico.litterbox.com> <l03102804b61393bf7eca@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <39F254DC.6E6882C6@idirect.com>

>Mike Ford wrote:

> No idea on mice, but I still have some LK201 and LK401 DEC keyboards.

Jerome Fine replies:

Do you also have some MMJ female connectors (H8575-A), and MMJ male
connectors (H8571-F)?  I will try to roll my own, but if it does not work,
I would appreciate a second source.

Sincerely yours,

Jerome Fine


From lemay at cs.umn.edu  Sat Oct 21 21:51:03 2000
From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: Cold storage
In-Reply-To: <023801c03bce$64c41e10$82799a8d@ajp166> from ajp166 at "Oct 21,
 2000 10:13:44 pm"
Message-ID: <200010220251.VAA12198@caesar.cs.umn.edu>

> >   I think so but I'd put each one in a plastic bad adn seal it first to
> >prevent condensation.
> 
> 
> Add silica gell to keep it dry in the bag.
> 
> Prevent vermin from attacking it or nesting in it.
> 
> Cold will generally not hurt anything.  Heat can be worse.

Well, he said he was in Minnesota. The state with the largest yearly
temperature extremes in the continental USA. Sure, getting to -30 or so
isnt really newsworthy, but then, having a dozen days above 90 isnt 
even worth mentioning either, actually that many days a year is almost
average. That 115 degree day a couple years ago was sure a pain...

-Lawrence LeMay

> 
> >>Should I insulate the shed first?
> 
> 
> Wouldn't hurt but making sure the wildlife don't go in and out all 
> the time is important.
> 
> Allison
> 


From wmsmith at earthlink.net  Sat Oct 21 22:21:21 2000
From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: Micro Peipherals model B51 FDDs
References: <39F25289.935B36A9@home.net>
Message-ID: <029401c03bd7$27866360$fa99b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net>

I recently acquired two of these 5 1/4 inch drives,
which have the garage-door type opening (and very low
ser. nos.).  Does anyone know the specs for these
drives?  I assume they are probably SS/SD.  They look
like they may be what was used for the Atari 801.  Is
this right?


From THETechnoid at home.com  Fri Oct 20 17:36:08 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: OS for AT&T 6300
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001020094720.009edb50@binhost.com>
Message-ID: <20001020222731.EGEU16989.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

Ed Kirby at Computer Parts Barn has a whole butload of ne1000 cards (8-bit
ethernet), brand new in thier sleeves.  Call 828-274-5963 and leave a
message.  I think he must be out of town at the moment.

Regards, 
Jeff

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From foo at siconic.com  Sat Oct 21 21:43:43 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: Cold storage
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001021221907.34ff8e8e@mailhost.intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010211942360.20165-100000@siconic.com>

On Sat, 21 Oct 2000, Joe wrote:

>    Chuckle! That looks about like my house but mine is piled higher.
> Perhaps we should all post a picture of our houses and we can have a
> cluttered house contest! :-)  FWIW I already have THREE sheds full of stuff
> in the back.

My Warehouse
http://www.siconic.com/crap/vtcrc.jpg

This is actually as of maybe a year ago.  I'm in the process of moving out
of this space.

>    But I doubt anyone can top one of the guys that I know down here. His
> house was FULL. I mean stuff stacked neatly and tightly from floor to
> ceiling in EVERY room. He had tiny pathways throughout the house but some
> rooms were completely filled and the doorways blocked solid.  In addition,
> he had OVER fifty large cars (Cadilacs and Lincolns) outside and they were
> all full! Furthermore he had rows and rows and rows of large garden sheds
> (12x20 feet) and they were all full.  To top it all off he had rows and
> rows of stuff sitting on pallets up on blocks.  Now THAT'S a pack rat!

That's a severe sickness.

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From wpfulmor at dimensional.com  Sat Oct 21 23:01:52 2000
From: wpfulmor at dimensional.com (William Fulmor)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: MMJ Info
In-Reply-To: <39F254D5.FE7E4E6F@idirect.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.4.10.10010212147520.10618-100000@flatland.dimensional.com>

On Sat, 21 Oct 2000, Jerome Fine wrote:

> Jerome Fine replies:
> 
> I appreciate the suggestion made below, however, I believe that I
> have located someone with some RJ11 blanks and a press.  ASAP,
> I will cut the current cable I have to test my concept.  If that works,
> I will not need to file anything - plus the connections should be as
> stable and firm as with DEC hardware.  Otherwise, I will try out
> your method.  Thank you.

Graybar Electric still stocks MMP's (AMP P/N 5-555237-200) and crimpers,
at least in some locations.  But that will, of course require the
expenditure of $$, and they might not have an outlet near you.  Also,
someone else on this list has (or had) access to a a source of crimpers -
he was kind enough to help me get a pair - but I've misplaced his name.

Bill


From KenzieM at sympatico.ca  Sat Oct 21 23:13:51 2000
From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: Cold storage
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010211942360.20165-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <001d01c03bde$994d91b0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Sellam Ismail" <foo@siconic.com>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2000 10:43 PM
Subject: Re: Cold storage


> On Sat, 21 Oct 2000, Joe wrote:
>
> >    Chuckle! That looks about like my house but mine is
piled higher.
> > Perhaps we should all post a picture of our houses and
we can have a
> > cluttered house contest! :-)  FWIW I already have THREE
sheds full of stuff
> > in the back.
>
> My Warehouse
> http://www.siconic.com/crap/vtcrc.jpg
>
> This is actually as of maybe a year ago.  I'm in the
process of moving out
> of this space.

OK I'll ask the question people ask me WHY?

I still get my hands on my machines, and use them one in a
while.

When it gets this big does it get any use?
Is it for investment purposes?
How often do these machines get fired up?

I heard about several Semi trailers full of machines about
to be sold by the pound for metal recovery, I may get them
for  .30/lb
I'm planning on refurbishing them and sending them back out
for use.  Most are 486 and low end Pentiums but I did see a
K2 in the bunch.

This guy had great stories about removing  water cooled
IBM's for the metals and was thinking who would have a
garage big enough to hold one and a power supply big enough
to plug it in.




From pete at dunnington.u-net.com  Sat Oct 21 18:02:27 2000
From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: NatSemi 32000 (Was: RE: Drop the Microsoft & OS Discussion!)
In-Reply-To: Derek Peschel <dpeschel@eskimo.com>
        "Re: NatSemi 32000 (Was: RE: Drop the Microsoft & OS Discussion!)" (Oct 21,  3:24)
References: <200010211024.DAA07358@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <10010220002.ZM3756@indy.dunnington.u-net.com>

On Oct 21,  3:24, Derek Peschel wrote:

> Second, I believe Acorn made a 32016 "second processor" box for their BBC
> Micro.  Those boxes connect to the main machine (2MHz 6502) via a 2MHz
bus
> (the Tube) with a semi-custom chip (with a couple of FIFOs and some
> registers) at each end.  I believe the second processor has a stub OS in
ROM
> with entry points matching the ones in the main machine.  The main OS
knows
> how to process calls from the Tube and how to download software to the
Tube.
> I thin the OS on the 32016 second processor was TRIPOS.  I'm still
sorting
> out the conflicting docs -- one of them mentions UNIX but that might have
> been scrapped.

I don't think it was either.  I think it was an Acorn proprietary OS called
PANOS, which looked vaguely Unix-like.  IIRC, it used BCPL rather than C.
 Somewhere I have all the advertising blurb (but not accessible ATM, if
it's where I think it is), and I used to have a complete set of PANOS disks
and docs, but I may have given that to someone who actually has a 32016.  I
never did, though for a while I did have an Acorn Scientific, which was a
Beeb and 32016 co-pro integated in a bulky box with colour monitor and hard
drive.  PANOS, by the way, was names after a certain rather good Greek
restaurant in Cambridge, which Acorn staff were later banned from -- not
because of the OS, I hasten to add, but allegedly because one night Chris
Curry took a swing at Clive Sinclair in there.

-- 

Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Dept. of Computer Science
						University of York

From wmsmith at earthlink.net  Sun Oct 22 04:32:25 2000
From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: Micro Peipherals model B51 FDDs
References: <39F25289.935B36A9@home.net> <029401c03bd7$27866360$fa99b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <02ab01c03c0a$fdcd3ec0$fa99b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net>


> I recently acquired two of these 5 1/4 inch drives,
> which have the garage-door type opening (and very low
> ser. nos.).  Does anyone know the specs for these
> drives?  I assume they are probably SS/SD.  They look
> like they may be what was used for the Atari 801.  Is
> this right?
>
Typo there.  Meant to say Atari 810.


From eric at brouhaha.com  Sun Oct 22 05:11:12 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: volunteers requested (was Re: Beginner into Micros, etc.)
In-Reply-To: <39F1F83F.22C163AB@idirect.com> (message from Jerome Fine on Sat,
	21 Oct 2000 16:10:40 -0400)
References: <9.c0b9bd2.27227d02@aol.com> <20001021062956.6047.qmail@brouhaha.com> <39F1F83F.22C163AB@idirect.com>
Message-ID: <20001022101112.19455.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Jerome asks:
> I guess I pay too much attention to details, but which single computer is it
> you are going to pick up.

A PDP-10 (KL10) system.

> Sorry I can't help from Toronto, but the air
> fare is just a bit too much to LA.

That's OK, thanks anyhow.  Fortunately the loading and the road trip
back to Silly Valley went fine.  The majority of the time spent on-site
was deinstalling the CPU, three cabinets about 48 inches wide by 30 inches
deep by 60 inches tall, all bolted together.  Although I'm sure DEC
must have shipped the three CPU cabinets separately, it is not designed
to be easy to assemble or disassemble.  There are many cables that pass
between the cabinets (through the sides), and some of them can't easily
be disconnected at *either* end.

From eric at brouhaha.com  Sun Oct 22 05:14:43 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: Beginner into Micros, etc.
In-Reply-To: <f5.3cdd2c7.27239699@aol.com> (Mzthompson@aol.com)
References: <f5.3cdd2c7.27239699@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20001022101443.19481.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Mzthompson@aol.com wrote:
> Darn, don't you just hate when we get into a size enumeration contest.
> Remember what they say "Size doesn't matter."

Of course not.  I have thousands of square feet of interesting (to me
at least) stuff, mostly DEC minicomputers.  I find this much more satisfying
than having hundreds of units of the same microcomputer, but I'm not
criticizing.

In fact, I was basically making that point that I'm completely insane.
But hopefully not a danger to society.  :-)


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Sun Oct 22 08:08:05 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: Microvax II boards
In-Reply-To: <39F25289.935B36A9@home.net>
Message-ID: <v04020a0eb61894f83166@[192.168.1.5]>

>M7608 RAM (4Meg I think)

Is it -A* or -B*?  If it's -A* it's 2MB, if -B* it's 4MB.

>M7516 (DELQA Ethernet adapter)
>M7555 (2x MFM Disk controller)

I'm not sure you actually have a need for this.  I know in my
MutantPDP-11/73 the only reason I've got one installed is to drive my RX50
floppies.  ESDI or SCSI totally blows this sucker away!

>SI Part # 981-4617 (ESDI board? SCD-RQD11/EC)

I believe this is a rebadged Webster board, a very nice ESDI controller!

>M5976-SA KZQSA (SCSI)

It's early and my mind is foggy.  Is this CD-ROM only?

>to save money on the drives. I can get a 760M ESDI drive for ~$300(US).

Uh, I don't know what part of the world you're in, but take a look around
for scrappers and junk dealers!  That's where I've gotten my ESDI drives.
While I've only found 150-380MB drives, I've also only payed $5 apiece for
them.

>Does anyone recognize the SI board or the RCI board? What is the minimum
>size drive for loading VMS 7.2? Any other thoughts? My fingers are itching
>to learn VMS?

Take a look at the SPD.  http://www.digital.com/SP2501/SP2501SC.TXT


>One other question, what command do I need to remount the drives on a
>Microvax II? My machines go off line and I don't know what commands to
>type to get them back.

?  I'm not sure I follow you here.  Are you saying the disk goes off-line
and you don't know how to get it back?

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|                 http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/              |

From KenzieM at sympatico.ca  Sun Oct 22 09:54:15 2000
From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: Filtering posts
Message-ID: <00d001c03c37$f40eeaa0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca>

I'm still not sure if my posts are getting through, but I'm
getting a load in my inbox.

How do others here filter the messages from the list without
a [Classiccmp] tag?




From Mzthompson at aol.com  Sun Oct 22 10:38:16 2000
From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: Insanity  (Was: Re: Beginner into Micros, etc.)
Message-ID: <e1.b41bcc6.272463e8@aol.com>

Eric Smith <eric@brouhaha.com> wrote:

> I have thousands of square feet of interesting (to me
> at least) stuff, mostly DEC minicomputers.

Up to now my collecting has been pretty much DEC stuff and a few
odd Intel boxes.  So I guess you could say we suffer from the same
form of insanity.  

Idea, contest time!  We need a name for the form of insanity whereby 
you continue to haul home DEC.

> I find this much more satisfying than having hundreds of units of 
> the same microcomputer, but I'm not criticizing.

It was more of a rescue than looking for satisfaction.  I kept them
from the dumpster.  I will keep a couple, and am sure homes can be
found for the others.  Of course there is the testing of all of
these which will take a fair amount of time.

> In fact, I was basically making that point that I'm completely insane.

Point taken, and understood.

Mike

From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Sun Oct 22 11:51:33 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: Cold storage
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010211942360.20165-100000@siconic.com>
References: <3.0.1.16.20001021221907.34ff8e8e@mailhost.intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001022115133.33afbd08@mailhost.intellistar.net>

At 07:43 PM 10/21/00 -0700, Sellam wrote:
>On Sat, 21 Oct 2000, Joe wrote:
>
>>    Chuckle! That looks about like my house but mine is piled higher.
>> Perhaps we should all post a picture of our houses and we can have a
>> cluttered house contest! :-)  FWIW I already have THREE sheds full of stuff
>> in the back.
>
>My Warehouse
>http://www.siconic.com/crap/vtcrc.jpg

   Nice collection of stuff but I can see part of the floor so I'd have say
you're disqualified.
>
>This is actually as of maybe a year ago.  I'm in the process of moving out
>of this space.
>
>>    But I doubt anyone can top one of the guys that I know down here. His
>> house was FULL. I mean stuff stacked neatly and tightly from floor to
>> ceiling in EVERY room. He had tiny pathways throughout the house but some
>> rooms were completely filled and the doorways blocked solid.  In addition,
>> he had OVER fifty large cars (Cadilacs and Lincolns) outside and they were
>> all full! Furthermore he had rows and rows and rows of large garden sheds
>> (12x20 feet) and they were all full.  To top it all off he had rows and
>> rows of stuff sitting on pallets up on blocks.  Now THAT'S a pack rat!
>
>That's a severe sickness.


   A ssevere case of collectoritous!

   Joe

>
>Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer
Festival
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
>International Man of Intrigue and Danger
http://www.vintage.org
>
>


From ncherry at home.net  Sun Oct 22 11:01:42 2000
From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:09 2005
Subject: Insanity  (Was: Re: Beginner into Micros, etc.)
References: <e1.b41bcc6.272463e8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <39F30F66.F6B7D5D8@home.net>

Mzthompson@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Eric Smith <eric@brouhaha.com> wrote:
> 
> > I have thousands of square feet of interesting (to me
> > at least) stuff, mostly DEC minicomputers.
> 
> Up to now my collecting has been pretty much DEC stuff and a few
> odd Intel boxes.  So I guess you could say we suffer from the same
> form of insanity.
> 
> Idea, contest time!  We need a name for the form of insanity whereby
> you continue to haul home DEC.

D.E.C.^2 ( Dee Eee Cee Squared), DEC Conservationists, what else (see
your statements below). It's not an illness, it's an enviromental
concern. :-)

> > I find this much more satisfying than having hundreds of units of
> > the same microcomputer, but I'm not criticizing.
> 
> It was more of a rescue than looking for satisfaction.  I kept them
> from the dumpster.  I will keep a couple, and am sure homes can be
> found for the others.  Of course there is the testing of all of
> these which will take a fair amount of time.

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

From jrasite at eoni.com  Sun Oct 22 11:08:32 2000
From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: Filtering posts
References: <00d001c03c37$f40eeaa0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <39F310F2.45483C1E@eoni.com>

Filter: If to: or cc: contains classiccmp move to folder....

Jim

From sipke at wxs.nl  Sun Oct 22 11:09:53 2000
From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: Drop the Microsoft & OS Discussion!
References: <3.0.5.32.20001020104022.007d6180@yellow.ucdavis.edu>
Message-ID: <004c01c03c42$8478ef00$030101ac@boll.casema.net>

Yeah !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Opinions are saturating this list to
an extent that they should get a
list of they own

like classicdiscussion@yours.vs.mine.stuff

Would anyone be so kind to launch one

Sipke de Wal

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Edwin P. Groot <epgroot@ucdavis.edu>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2000 7:40 PM
Subject: Drop the Microsoft & OS Discussion!


>      I vote to drop-kick this weeks discussion/useless rant on Windows and
> other OS's and other pokes to list members.
>      Get back to you classic computers, VAXen, boxen, whatever-you-have-en,
> which this list is meant for!
> 
>      Anyone with me on this?
>      Edwin


From richard at idcomm.com  Sun Oct 22 11:13:58 2000
From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: Micro Peipherals model B51 FDDs
References: <39F25289.935B36A9@home.net> <029401c03bd7$27866360$fa99b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <002001c03c43$16688d80$0500fea9@winbook>

First of all, there never were ANY 5-1/4" drives of any sort I've ever
encountered, that were SD, that's because the drive doesn't determine the
rlux reversal density with which the controller writes on the media, and
because the head technology, by the time 5-1/4" drives came into common
usage, would always support "double density" which relies on a more
efficient modulation technique than what's used in SD.

Secondly, if you look at the drive, you should be able to tell whether there
are two heads or just one from the cable connectors.   On some drives you
may have to look where the cables come from by dismounting the board and
looking underneath, but these are often shielded cables with thin (#28 or
smaller) insulated wires in a common shield, coming from the heads.  One
such cable will dome from each side of the head assembly.

MPI drives were used in the original IBM PC's, so they might look the same
as what you see in the old PC's at the junk shops.  There is nothing strange
about any of the MPI drives, so, unless you have an OEM version of one sort
or another, you may safely assume the obvious.

Dick

----- Original Message -----
From: Wayne M. Smith <wmsmith@earthlink.net>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2000 9:21 PM
Subject: Micro Peipherals model B51 FDDs


> I recently acquired two of these 5 1/4 inch drives,
> which have the garage-door type opening (and very low
> ser. nos.).  Does anyone know the specs for these
> drives?  I assume they are probably SS/SD.  They look
> like they may be what was used for the Atari 801.  Is
> this right?
>
>


From foo at siconic.com  Sun Oct 22 10:18:57 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: Cold storage
In-Reply-To: <001d01c03bde$994d91b0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010220800350.20971-100000@siconic.com>

On Sun, 22 Oct 2000, Mike Kenzie wrote:

> OK I'll ask the question people ask me WHY?
> 
> I still get my hands on my machines, and use them one in a
> while.
> 
> When it gets this big does it get any use?
> Is it for investment purposes?
> How often do these machines get fired up?

Yes, it is an investment of sorts.  It's an investment in history.  My
intent has always been to create a historical archive.  It's something I
am passionate about.  However, the time I have available does not match my
passion, and so I haven't yet been able to accomplish the things I have
planned, the least of which is organization :)

But I have started the process of cataloguing books.  I'm currently
looking for a more permanent home (this warehouse was to be my base but I
lost the lease on it).  Once I have found that place, things will start to
get sorted out.

In the meantime, my collection is and always has been open to anyone
who wants to browse through it, as well as borrow things for their own
research.  I have machines and documentation currently loaned out to both
individuals and commercial entities.  I charge the commercial interests
and I let individuals have access for free.

Once I find a permanent home, the plan (as it has always been) is to
create a public resource center, for both research into computer history
as well as to provide computer resources and educational programs to the
local community.

I have a substantial collection, but I'm not trying to be the biggest or
the best.  I'm not trying to compete with other established organizations
such as The Computer Museum History Center.  However, I am trying to be a
provider of resources for those interested in exploring computer history.
The way I see it, no one organization will ever be able to "have it all".
And I don't think there should be one place that does.  I think a network
of computer history organizations around the globe comprised of both
"professional" entities and individual collectors that work with each
other and share their resources is the way to go, and I have had
discussions with TCMHC's director about this, who shares the same idea.

So there you have it...what have been my ruminations for the past several
years in a tidy little nutshell.

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Sun Oct 22 11:38:04 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: volunteers requested (was Re: Beginner into Micros, etc.)
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB25C@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>


> Jerome asks:
> > I guess I pay too much attention to details, but which single computer
is it
> > you are going to pick up.
> 
> A PDP-10 (KL10) system.

Oh holy bat guano, Eric... nice rescue! When was the last time it 
was operational?

Somewhere, I may still have the Macro-10 source code for RWATCH,
a superuser hack that floated around the University of Louisville
for years.

-dq

From foo at siconic.com  Sun Oct 22 10:41:22 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: Insanity  (Was: Re: Beginner into Micros, etc.)
In-Reply-To: <e1.b41bcc6.272463e8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010220840540.20971-100000@siconic.com>

On Sun, 22 Oct 2000 Mzthompson@aol.com wrote:

> Idea, contest time!  We need a name for the form of insanity whereby 
> you continue to haul home DEC.

Mental DECay?

har har

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Oct 22 11:46:17 2000
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: Micro Peipherals model B51 FDDs
In-Reply-To: <029401c03bd7$27866360$fa99b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010220934540.12014-100000@lanshark.lanminds.com>

On Sat, 21 Oct 2000, Wayne M. Smith wrote:
> I recently acquired two of these 5 1/4 inch drives,
> which have the garage-door type opening (and very low
> ser. nos.).  Does anyone know the specs for these
> drives?  I assume they are probably SS/SD.  They look
> like they may be what was used for the Atari 801.  Is
> this right?

I first saw (and bought) the MPI B51 drives at the 3rd West Coast Computer
Faire (that was the one time that they held it in LA.)  They were the
first 5.25" drive that I ever saw after the Shugart SA400.  We (Elcompco)
were worried about whether they would work for TRS-80, but they did very
nicely.

They were single sided, 40 track (48 TPI), with faster step than the
Shugarts. IIRC, the B52 was DS, B91? was SS 96TPI, and B92? was DS 96TPI.

The door was a manual closure, and would slam open when you press the
button.  But the people who refused to hold the door while it was
opening were the same people who would "flip" the doors (and break
them) on Shugarts and Tandons.  We replaced fewer doors on the MPIs than
on the Shugarts and Tandons.


[Richard:  although many people did put them in their PC's, IBM did NOT
use them.  IBM used first Tandons, and then later some CDCs]

--
Fred Cisin                      cisin@xenosoft.com
XenoSoft                        http://www.xenosoft.com
PO Box 1236                     (510) 558-9366
Berkeley, CA 94701-1236


From sipke at wxs.nl  Sun Oct 22 12:07:09 2000
From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: Alright you Linux-heads...
References: <Pine.SV4.3.96.001020152040.9056A-100000@lerami.lerctr.org>
Message-ID: <00a401c03c4a$839684a0$030101ac@boll.casema.net>

Take a look at the PMfirewall stuff @ www.freashmeat.net

Sipke de Wal

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) <transit@lerctr.org>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2000 10:32 PM
Subject: Alright you Linux-heads...


> 
> I've got a couple of 486 boxen (25 mHz, 8-megs of Ram, 1.2 gig
> hard drive) sitting around the house. I'd like to make one of them 
> into a Linux-based firewall for my cable modem. (I also have a copy
> of Turbo Linux available for this project)
> 
> Currently I use both a PC and a Mac, and switch between them via
> a KVM switch. Both are equipped with Ethernet cards to connect into
> the cable modem. I've tried using an Ethernet cable switch to 
> select either the PC or the Mac, but it didn't quite work the way I
> expected it to.
> 
> At the very minimum, I would like to be able to 
> * have both the PC and Mac be able to access the internet at
> the same time
> * do the usual firewall stuff (e.g. keep the bad guy out. I currently
> use ZoneAlarm on the pc, and it does a decent job)
> 
> I'd also like to go further, and have the Mac and PC read each other's
> hard drives (still, while keeping outside users out)
> 
> What do I need to do/get here?
> 
> Thanks!
> 


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Sun Oct 22 12:49:31 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: Insanity  (Was: Re: Beginner into Micros, etc.)
In-Reply-To: <39F30F66.F6B7D5D8@home.net>
References: <e1.b41bcc6.272463e8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <v04020a14b618d8790da4@[192.168.1.5]>

Neil Cherry wrote:
>D.E.C.^2 ( Dee Eee Cee Squared), DEC Conservationists, what else (see
>your statements below). It's not an illness, it's an enviromental
>concern. :-)

No, it's a illness!  Trust me, it's an illness!  Though unlike Eric I don't
have <gulp> thousands of square feet of DEC equipment, I do have well over
100 square feet of DEC hardware, software and documentation.  It's an
illness!  I think it's the documenation that is at fault in the long run.
That and the really good OS's.

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|                 http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/              |

From leec at slip.net  Sun Oct 22 12:50:00 2000
From: leec at slip.net (Lee Courtney)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: volunteers requested (was Re: Beginner into Micros, etc.)
In-Reply-To: <20001022101112.19455.qmail@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIDGFALDDAMKPHCMCKELJDCAA.leec@slip.net>

> That's OK, thanks anyhow.  Fortunately the loading and the road trip
> back to Silly Valley went fine.  The majority of the time spent on-site
> was deinstalling the CPU, three cabinets about 48 inches wide by 30 inches
> deep by 60 inches tall, all bolted together.  Although I'm sure DEC
> must have shipped the three CPU cabinets separately, it is not designed
> to be easy to assemble or disassemble.  There are many cables that pass
> between the cabinets (through the sides), and some of them can't easily
> be disconnected at *either* end.

The CPU for our 20 (either a 2040 or 2050, it's been too long) came in three
separate cabinets. I remember mainly because when the truck making the
delivery from DEC was backing down the ramp to the loading dock at the
Computer Center, the driver tapped on his brakes about half-way down and
lost a tape drive out of the back of the truck. Unfortunatly he didn't know
anything was wrong and kept on backing down the ramp, much to the
consertnation of our operations manager.

Lee Courtney


From frederik at freddym.org  Sun Oct 22 13:29:25 2000
From: frederik at freddym.org (Frederik Meerwaldt)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: Filtering posts
In-Reply-To: <00d001c03c37$f40eeaa0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0010222028450.23644-100000@server.wes.mee.com>

Hi!

> I'm still not sure if my posts are getting through, but I'm
> getting a load in my inbox.
> 
> How do others here filter the messages from the list without
> a [Classiccmp] tag?

if the To or CC field matches classiccmp@classiccmp.org, I move it to the
Classiccmp folder.

-- 
Best Regards,
	Freddy

=====================================================================
Frederik Meerwaldt  ICQ: 83045387  Homepage: http://www.freddym.org
 Bavaria/Germany              OpenVMS and Unix Howtos and much more
   FREEBSD, NETBSD, OPENBSD, TRU64, OPENVMS, ULTRIX, BEOS, LINUX



From eric at brouhaha.com  Sun Oct 22 13:58:31 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: Filtering posts
In-Reply-To: <00d001c03c37$f40eeaa0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca>
	(KenzieM@sympatico.ca)
References: <00d001c03c37$f40eeaa0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <20001022185831.24283.qmail@brouhaha.com>

"Mike Kenzie" <KenzieM@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> How do others here filter the messages from the list without
> a [Classiccmp] tag?

Filter on the "Sender: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org" header.  For
instance, from my .procmailrc file:

:0:
* ^Sender: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org
classic

If you're using something other than procmail, you'll obviously have to
set it up differently.

Best regards,
Eric


From rdd at smart.net  Sun Oct 22 14:49:43 2000
From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: Cold storage
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001022115133.33afbd08@mailhost.intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010221527080.26390-100000@smarty.smart.net>

On Sun, 22 Oct 2000, Joe wrote:
> At 07:43 PM 10/21/00 -0700, Sellam wrote:
> >On Sat, 21 Oct 2000, Joe wrote:
> >> rooms were completely filled and the doorways blocked solid.  In addition,
> >> he had OVER fifty large cars (Cadilacs and Lincolns) outside and they were
> >> all full! Furthermore he had rows and rows and rows of large garden sheds
> >> (12x20 feet) and they were all full.  To top it all off he had rows and
> >> rows of stuff sitting on pallets up on blocks.  Now THAT'S a pack rat!
> >
> >That's a severe sickness.

That's what happens when one's house isn't large enough.  Oddly, I'm
surprised that I've never seen any references to the proper cure for
these symptoms in any books, and my abnormal psych. teacher failed to
mention it as well.  Obviously, the solution isn't to cure someone of
their collecting habit, it's to help them acquire a larger house.

>    A ssevere case of collectoritous!

Which is a good thing,

...combined with a classic case of housetoosmallia, a bad thing.  That
is, it's a collectoritous/housetoosmallious disorder. :-)

--
Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of
All Rights Reserved            Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to
rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd   a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD 





From ss at allegro.com  Sun Oct 22 15:52:46 2000
From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: HP 9000 & HP 1000 available
Message-ID: <39F2F12E.28362.14FEAD54@localhost>

Hi,

(sighted elsewhere)

There's a couple of HP 9000s (PA-RISC) and
one HP 1000/900 available in Minnesota at:

   http://www.w9fz.com/hp9000/index.html

Don't email *me*!


Stan Sieler                                           sieler@allegro.com
www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html          www.allegro.com/sieler

From mcquiggi at sfu.ca  Sun Oct 22 18:02:45 2000
From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: Looking for TMB11 Controller!
Message-ID: <200010222302.e9MN2jV28383@rm-rstar.sfu.ca>

Hi Group:

I'm looking for a controller for my TS03 tape drive, freshly racked in a
nice
11/34A recently rescued from North Vancouver.

The modules in a TMB11 are: 
M105
M795
M796
M7821
M7911
M7912

and they fit into a custom 4-slot backplane.

I realize that this is a longshot, but anybody that has one that's
available, please contact me!

Thanks as well to those that helped with my recent 11/34 booting and console
questions!

Kevin




From cfandt at netsync.net  Sun Oct 22 20:39:34 2000
From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: Looking for TMB11 Controller!
In-Reply-To: <200010222302.e9MN2jV28383@rm-rstar.sfu.ca>
Message-ID: <4.1.20001022202117.00b3a4a0@206.231.8.2>

Hi  Kevin,

Well, I think I've got just the thing for you! 

I've been trying to clear out most of the rest of the Big DEC Haul I had
purchased/rescued in July 1998. Still a lot left. Among the bunch of big
iron left to get shed of is a 6' PDP-11 rack with a TS03 and its
controller. The controller is mounted in a 10.5" BA11 similar to your
11/34A BA11 (PSUs are a bit different in the 11/34 as you may know. More
5VDC current capacity.) If you were reasonably close you could come over
and fetch it. But BC is basically at the other end of the continent though :(

Although I haven't had time to post the list of available hardware since I
think this past late Winter, I had tried through '98 and '99 to dispose of
the gear. I'm just recently able to spend a bit more time reading
ClassicCmp and my other radio-related lists. The only things that found new
homes are the VAX 11/750 and TU80 tape with RA81 drive both in a 40" rack
(Thanks Will J. for taking it and thanks again Bill Donzelli for taking
them out to a drop-off point in Iowa!) plus a company down in Columbus,
Ohio bought the LP-25 printer as a spare.

Anyway, this is to say that I think I'm going to have to part-out the gear
and scrap the remnants - which does not impress me in the very least. So
Kevin, it looks like you may be able to get as much as you need (and
hopefully more!) for your TS03 system. There's a heap of 7" 800 BPI tapes
available too - about 85 or so.

I intend to post the list of available DEC gear one last time for
interested takers before I have to resort to dismantling them for parts and
scrap. If things remain slow at work (i.e., finally less than 60+ hour
weeks) I'll try to post it late this week. 

That Big Haul began as a purchase for a very reasonable price of a MicroVAX
II and a Grey Wall, RT-11 and RSX-11 Orange Walls, PDP 11/23, Handbooks,
schematics, stacks of other docs, parts, etc. Small stuff, basically.

The fellow I got it from saw I'd brought a 15-foot Ryder Rental truck with
a liftgate (smallest truck Ryder had _available_ at the time). The purchase
turned into a rescue of two VAXen (11/730 & 11/750), several 11/34A's,
bunch of RL02s, four RK07s, decWriter I's, II's and III's, several VT100s,
PDP 11/24, MicroPDP-11 (11/73), another 11/23, RA60, disk pacs, tapes, etc,
etc. which ended up stuffing that truck with barely enough room to pull the
door down. He was about to call a scrapper as there was no other interest
in the stuff from anybody. I think the thing was loaded above its legal
weight limit (18,000 lbs gross wt). If I had a bigger truck, the guy would
have sent several thousand pounds _more_  home with me. Oh well, I'll think
TWICE next time before I get myself into such a haul. My wife will make
sure of it!! ;-)

Upon the date 04:02 PM 10/22/00 -0700, Kevin McQuiggin said something like:
>Hi Group:
>
>I'm looking for a controller for my TS03 tape drive, freshly racked in a
>nice
>11/34A recently rescued from North Vancouver.
    -- snip TMB11 module list --
>I realize that this is a longshot, but anybody that has one that's
>available, please contact me!

Actually a "shortshot" ;-)

>
>Thanks as well to those that helped with my recent 11/34 booting and console
>questions!

Thanks from me too as I've had to literally drop any contact with getting
my 11/34A running because of life and stuff getting in the way. Been over a
year since I had a chance to touch it. That thread will be very important
to keep as I've had a very similar or identical problem (can't find my
notes on it now though). Maybe this Winter time will open up a bit (???).

BTW, I'm in Western NY State close to Lake Erie.

Regards,  Chris
-- --
Christian Fandt,         Electronic/Electrical Historian
Jamestown, NY  USA      cfandt@netsync.net
        Member of Antique Wireless Association                         
        URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/

From wmsmith at earthlink.net  Sun Oct 22 21:05:31 2000
From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: New Luggable Finds
References: <39F2F12E.28362.14FEAD54@localhost>
Message-ID: <005001c03c95$b9b64de0$1b9eb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net>

Just scored two mid-80s luggables that you don't see
all that often -- a Televideo TPC I and Sanyo MBC-775
with color monitor.  Both functional with complete
documentation and original S/W.  The engineering on the
Televideo is impressive -- a very compact luggable for
its time (1983-84).  Has a very odd yellow-green
monitor.


From KenzieM at sympatico.ca  Sun Oct 22 22:03:51 2000
From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: Filtering posts
References: <00d001c03c37$f40eeaa0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> <20001022185831.24283.qmail@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <002801c03c9f$de1d9080$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca>

Thanks for the help, I seem to have it fixed now.

I was missing the CC

Today I managed to pick up 5 machines

an la-23   Digital communicator -it has the acoustic cups on
the side and the output is to a roll of paper.

A PS/2 25  unfortunately I get a 301 keyboard error when I
fire it up.

3 much newer machines that would not be of interest here but
had 10 gig worth of hard drives that I can put to other use.

Total cost less than the 1 gig drive I was going to get
anyway.
 I also got a lead on another several other machines



\


From KenzieM at sympatico.ca  Sun Oct 22 22:18:06 2000
From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: Looking for bC18z and vr-290
References: <4.1.20001022202117.00b3a4a0@206.231.8.2>
Message-ID: <002901c03c9f$e11e2650$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Christian Fandt" <cfandt@netsync.net>
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 9:39 PM
Subject: Re: Looking for TMB11 Controller!


> Hi  Kevin,
>
> Well, I think I've got just the thing for you!
>
> I intend to post the list of available DEC gear one last
time for
> interested takers before I have to resort to dismantling
them for parts and
> scrap. If things remain slow at work (i.e., finally less
than 60+ hour
> weeks) I'll try to post it late this week.

I picked up a VAXstation II/GPX, the previous owner dropped
the monitor and threw it out with the cable (bc18z)  now I
have the mouse and keyboard and no where to plug them in.
I was told that there maybe other monitors that will work
with this machine.

I saw a picture of what I now think was this missing cable
on ebay but it has since vanished.

Will a sun monitor also work?

Another option is to remove the graphic cards and use a
serial cable (bcc08) to attach a dumb terminal.

Any other suggestions?

I'm currently in Ottawa but will be making a trip to
Vancouver/Kamloops in the spring



From agraham at ccat.co.uk  Mon Oct 23 04:23:03 2000
From: agraham at ccat.co.uk (Adrian Graham)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: Tubes and Hoses
Message-ID: <00Oct23.102308bst.46093@gatekeeper.ccat.co.uk>

Tony didst scribe:

>One pun that may not have crossed the Pond is that it was called the 
>'Tube' not only because it was a thing for shifting data from one machine 
>to the other (like a tube would carry a fluid), but also because the Tube 
>is a slang name for the London Underground (railway) (what you'd call the 
>Subway) and is thus an alternative to travelling by bus...

Heh - reminds me as to why the bus interconnect in the Alpha is called a
'hose'.....in the labs they had everything connected together with thick
green cables which someone said looked like garden hoses.....

--
Adrian Graham MCSE/ASE/MCP
C CAT Limited
Gubbins: http://www.ccat.co.uk (work)
<http://www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk> (me)
<http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk> (The online computer museum)
0/0


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Oct 23 06:56:40 2000
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: Nobel Price (WAS: 4004?)
In-Reply-To: <000001c032e7$b95455c0$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>
References: <200010101732.KAA23621@civic.hal.com>
Message-ID: <39F44398.30172.F5A956E@localhost>

> [...1/2 Nobel price for Jack S. Kilby for
>  his part in developing the IC...] 

> Anybody know the line of products from TI, the ID's,
> of the stuff coming from JK's first chip?

Not a lot, if it has been for Jack K. we would still
wire single transistors on a common carrier, and instead
of a Silicon Valley there would be a 'Germanium Park'
somewhere in Texas. Thanks to Robert Noyce of Fairchild,
who happened to invent the planar Si based IC short
before in a tiny outback county near SF, it didn't come
thru :)) 

Why hasn't Robert Noyce been awarded ? Simply
because the Nobel price is only to be given to
living persons - and Jack simply outlived his
rival - also the reason why the award is given
becaus of his 'paticipation' and not 'invention'
of the IC, and why there are others (for different
areas of electronics) included. the comitee felt
that it's completly wrong to give the full award
to the second in line.

Gruss
H.
(Still catching up old posts)

--
VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen
http://www.vintage.org/vcfe
http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Oct 23 07:15:04 2000
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: Ibex at last.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.1001020230639.7171A-100000@osfn.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010200700210.7363-100000@war.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <39F447E8.4369.F6B6DCF@localhost>

> I literally stumbled over the iBEX manual uuhilst looking for something 
> else this afternoon.

> iBEX - King of the Mountain in Microcomputers (1982)

> Martec International Electronics Corp.,
> 20 \/\/illiam Street, \/\/ellesley, MA 02181
> 617-237-2115

> Models:
> 7000  5-1/4inch DSDD
> 7102  5-1/4inch DSDD
> 7103  5-1/4inch DSDD
> 7150  5-1/4inch DSDD, rigid drive
> 7202  8inch DSDD
> 7301  8inch DSDD, rigid drive
> 7500

> All models sem to have been CP/M machines, except the 7500, npot covered 
> in this manual, and described as "multi-user, multi-tasking" - MP/M?

Say, is this a lot of paper ?
I would be interested to gather all information possible
about this machines since I have one in my Lager (thanks
to Stefan Walgenbach).

Gruss
H.

--
VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen
http://www.vintage.org/vcfe
http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Oct 23 08:07:55 2000
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: Zilog S8000 available in the UK
In-Reply-To: <0160284F4D93D411BD3900A0C9DB78ED9572@GREENHOUS_NT_01>
Message-ID: <39F4544B.19996.F9BCCDD@localhost>

> I had this machine offered to me, but it is too far for me to collect it if
> anyone else in the UK wants it.  Please contact Mike directly.

> BTW what, precisely, is it - does anyone on the list know of them.  In his
> original message to me he said that it was big and that it had been used at
> a local college to teach Unix to students.

> > -----Original Message-----
> > no probs abt the delay in replying Pete, feel free to pass on the 
> > details to whoever you wish.

> > I now have it here, its a Zilog S8000/32 Model 130, Ser no. 
> > 01871336, sold by Allied Business Systems of Portslade, Sussex.

> > It appears to be functional but as yet I hav'nt connected a terminal 
> > to it so I can't be certain of this.

> > If you or any of your fellow devotees would like to have it 
> > then I'd be 
> > only too happy to store it until it can be collected.
> > Catch you later.. Mike W, Redruth, Cornwall


Is this Baby still available ?
There'S a chance for me to visit the UK next
spring by car, so I may be able to collect it.

Servus
hans

--
VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen
http://www.vintage.org/vcfe
http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Oct 23 08:07:55 2000
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: NatSemi 32000
In-Reply-To: <39F0E7F6.5748586D@gorge.net>
Message-ID: <39F4544B.62.F9BCCCE@localhost>

 
> Rick Bensene wrote:
> > Tektronix (the Oscilloscope people) built a line of early Unix workstations
> > based on the National 16032 (which was the 16-bit bus version of the 32032).

I may be coorected, but AFAIR are the 16032 and 32032 the very
same CPUs - NS just changed at one point the family name 16xxx
to 32xxx to reflect the 32 Bit hype. Bussize was always noted
by the last two digits, while the middle digit served as family.
16008/32008  8-Bit external Data
16016/32016 16-Bit external Data
16032/32032 32-Bit external Data

External FPUs 32081 and 32181

BTW, the NS32 family is still alive as embeded/single chip
CPUs - just the naming scheme changed to 32llbbv where
ll are two letters descibing the type (CG=CPU Core, FX=),
bb is the bussize (always 16 at the moment) anv v is a
version/subtype. Well, at least that'S what they had in
mind until they came up with names like NS32FX100 and 200.
So forget about naming schemes anymore.

Gruss
H.

--
VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen
http://www.vintage.org/vcfe
http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 23 09:57:04 2000
From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: Looking for MicroVAX/VAXstation 2000 roms, version 2.3
Message-ID: <20001023145704.32576.qmail@web9501.mail.yahoo.com>


I am in the process of refurbing some uVAX2000s and finally ran down the
patches for the SCSI boot ROMs and VMS device drivers.  Unfortunately for
me, my newest uVAX has version 2.2 ROMs and the patches are for 2.3.  Can
anyone help me locate newer ROM images?  I have plenty of blanks and a
programmer, so that's the easy part.

TIA,

-ethan


=====
Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to
vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com

The original webpage address is still going away.  The 
permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/

See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf!  It's FREE.
http://im.yahoo.com/

From mmcfadden at cmh.edu  Mon Oct 23 10:37:07 2000
From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: RF71 disk drives and 2 BA123 microVax II's in Kansas City
Message-ID: <E7AC96207335D411B1E7009027FC284906BD2E@EXCHANGE2>

Hi all
I have 6 RF71 disk drives, a TK25 and 2 BA123 microVax II's in Kansas City
that I need to get rid of .  Any offers?
Mike
mmcfadden@cmh.edu


From univac2 at earthlink.net  Mon Oct 23 11:36:06 2000
From: univac2 at earthlink.net (Jack Robertson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: Goodwill Computerworks Museum
Message-ID: <002901c03d0f$5a413300$375f273f@hkyxztrz>

A while back, everybody was talking about the Goodwill Computerworks Museum. Can someone tell me what city that was in?

Thanks,
Owen
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From Mzthompson at aol.com  Mon Oct 23 12:17:33 2000
From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: Looking for MicroVAX/VAXstation 2000 roms, version 2.3
Message-ID: <68.86ca5f5.2725ccad@aol.com>

Ethan Dicks <ethan_dicks@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I am in the process of refurbing some uVAX2000s and finally ran down the
> patches for the SCSI boot ROMs and VMS device drivers.  Unfortunately for
> me, my newest uVAX has version 2.2 ROMs and the patches are for 2.3.  Can
> anyone help me locate newer ROM images?  I have plenty of blanks and a
> programmer, so that's the easy part.

Instead of ROM images, how about the ROM's themselves.

I have one uVAX2000 that I tore down to remove the disk to send to a
fellow list member.  Looking at the ROM's on it:

DEC87 LM8737 on all of them

the unique numbers on each ROM are: 033E7 034E7 035E7 036E7

I never test fired this one, so no info other than above.

I also have five VAXstation 2000's.  They have all been test fired
and at the time they spewed:

KN410-B V2.3

You want I should loan you a set of ROM's and throw them in the box
with the DS200/MC manual when you get around to sending me a Priority
Mail stamp.  How's that for a subtle reminder?

I might also remind you that you recently dug a VS2000 out of the barn
and gave it to a friend.  Are you refurbishing his also, or might you have
just given away the very thing you seek?  This may be another indication
of what Sellam so aptly named "Mental DECay". ;-)

Mike

From bwit at pobox.com  Mon Oct 23 12:27:12 2000
From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: Goodwill Computerworks Museum
In-Reply-To: <002901c03d0f$5a413300$375f273f@hkyxztrz>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20001023122654.00a3c7b0@ruffboy.com>


I think it was in Austin, Texas.

At 11:36 AM 10/23/00 -0500, you wrote:
>A while back, everybody was talking about the Goodwill Computerworks 
>Museum. Can someone tell me what city that was in?
>
>Thanks,
>Owen

--------------------------------------------------------
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous,
  he will not bite you.  This is the principal difference
  between a dog and a man."
                 -- Mark Twain 


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Oct 23 12:08:42 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: Tubes and Hoses
In-Reply-To: <00Oct23.102308bst.46093@gatekeeper.ccat.co.uk> from "Adrian Graham" at Oct 23, 0 10:23:03 am
Message-ID: <m13nl5d-000IyHC@p850ug1>

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From pete at dunnington.u-net.com  Mon Oct 23 12:32:15 2000
From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: NatSemi 32000
In-Reply-To: "Hans Franke" <Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de>
        "Re: NatSemi 32000" (Oct 23, 15:07)
References: <39F4544B.62.F9BCCCE@localhost>
Message-ID: <10010231832.ZM5186@indy.dunnington.u-net.com>

On Oct 23, 15:07, Hans Franke wrote:

> I may be coorected, but AFAIR are the 16032 and 32032 the very
> same CPUs - NS just changed at one point the family name 16xxx
> to 32xxx to reflect the 32 Bit hype. Bussize was always noted
> by the last two digits, while the middle digit served as family.
> 16008/32008  8-Bit external Data
> 16016/32016 16-Bit external Data
> 16032/32032 32-Bit external Data

Are you sure about that, Hans?  When Acorn first talked about their NatSemi
second processor, they described it as a 16032; by the time it was
released, it was a 32016 and they claimed this was the same device
previously called a 16032.

-- 

Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Dept. of Computer Science
						University of York

From vcf at siconic.com  Mon Oct 23 11:31:30 2000
From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: Tandy Model 4P available
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010230925170.22359-100000@siconic.com>


I know someone who has a nice Tandy 4P with a printer and manuals
available.  It's all boxed up and waiting to go.  There are three boxes,
the weights being 68, 33 and 7 pounds.  The from ZIP code is 98039.

Please reply directly to me if you are interested.  Precedence will go to
local pickups (Seattle, WA area, specifically Medina).  If you are not
local, please be prepared to make a small offer on the lot, on top of the
shipping costs (use UPS website to calculate).

In this case, please do reply to me directly :)

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org







From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Oct 23 13:19:34 2000
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: NatSemi 32000
In-Reply-To: <10010231832.ZM5186@indy.dunnington.u-net.com>
References: "Hans Franke" <Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de>        "Re: NatSemi 32000" (Oct 23, 15:07)
Message-ID: <39F49D56.26124.10B920DF@localhost>

> > I may be coorected, but AFAIR are the 16032 and 32032 the very
> > same CPUs - NS just changed at one point the family name 16xxx
> > to 32xxx to reflect the 32 Bit hype. Bussize was always noted
> > by the last two digits, while the middle digit served as family.
> > 16008/32008  8-Bit external Data
> > 16016/32016 16-Bit external Data
> > 16032/32032 32-Bit external Data

> Are you sure about that, Hans?  When Acorn first talked about their NatSemi
> second processor, they described it as a 16032; by the time it was
> released, it was a 32016 and they claimed this was the same device
> previously called a 16032.

I stand to be corrected Pete, but at least the Chip Directory
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ganswijk/chipdir/n/160.htm
agrees to my memory. I may check my databooks tonight.

Gruss
H.

--
VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen
http://www.vintage.org/vcfe
http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

From mmcfadden at cmh.edu  Mon Oct 23 13:28:38 2000
From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: Stacking computers
Message-ID: <E7AC96207335D411B1E7009027FC284906BD2F@EXCHANGE2>

I have a serious questions to ask.  How high can you pile computers and not
damage the bottom units.  
I have computers stacked along my garage walls.  For example:
MicroVAX II on bottom, three 3B2's next, AT&T Unix PC next, box of keyboards
above, empty boxes and boxes of cables on top.
I wonder if pile stability is the most important, or that the heaviest stuff
be on the bottom, or is regular shape items on the bottom best.  Seeing the
floor is not a problem.  
I'm trying to buy some shelving from a friend in St. Louis who gets it
cheap.  Although cheap shelving is an oxymoron.  I envision some stainless
steel roll around shelving and some fixed units.  Of course if the New
Madrid Fault reactivates I'll just have to restack.  

Can anyone guess what the average per foot floor load is for 3' high
computer piles?  I'm afraid that my garage attic may collapse on the cars if
I stack it higher than 3'.  I'm also worried about the temperature extremes
in the garage attic.  

I'm lucky my wife and I have several small power and sailboats and guess
what boats live outdoors with no complaints about rain, snow, heat and cold.
When my kids go off to college I'm converting 1 or more bedrooms into
workshops.  

Thanks
Mike
mmcfaddden@cmh.edu





From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Oct 23 13:29:08 2000
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: NPR Morning Edition segment on VCF IV
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010082030270.29507-100000@siconic.com>
References: <200010081729.KAA29996@stockholm.ptloma.edu>
Message-ID: <39F49F94.11756.10C1E2C1@localhost>

 
> > Who eventually made the cut to broadcast?

> Wayne Smith, Curt Vendel, Hans Franke, Christine Finn, Jim Willing.

Argh - any chance to get a tape ?

Gruss
H.

--
VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen
http://www.vintage.org/vcfe
http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

From sring at uslink.net  Mon Oct 23 13:46:40 2000
From: sring at uslink.net (Stephanie Ring)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: Tandy Model 4P available
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010230925170.22359-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <002d01c03d21$98f0b1e0$4f57ddcc@uslink.net>

I would like this computer.  $50.00 plus shipping.


From:  "Stephanie Ring"
sring@uslink.net
----- Original Message -----
From: Vintage Computer Festival <vcf@siconic.com>
To: Classic Computers Mailing List <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2000 11:31 AM
Subject: Tandy Model 4P available


>
> I know someone who has a nice Tandy 4P with a printer and manuals
> available.  It's all boxed up and waiting to go.  There are three boxes,
> the weights being 68, 33 and 7 pounds.  The from ZIP code is 98039.
>
> Please reply directly to me if you are interested.  Precedence will go to
> local pickups (Seattle, WA area, specifically Medina).  If you are not
> local, please be prepared to make a small offer on the lot, on top of the
> shipping costs (use UPS website to calculate).
>
> In this case, please do reply to me directly :)
>
> Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer
Festival
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> International Man of Intrigue and Danger
http://www.vintage.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


From richard at idcomm.com  Mon Oct 23 13:50:17 2000
From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: old MAC's
Message-ID: <001801c03d22$1748c000$0100a8c0@winbook>

I've begun to see numbers of old Mac's in the various thrift stores.  Which models are particularly interesting?  I've never had much of a taste for the things, but at $6-$10 each it might be worth snagging the things just for the disk drives, or some such.  

Today I ran into a classic, a ii-lc or some such and iii-si or something like that.  These latter are both those recent-looking low-profile thingies.  Do they have anything of interest in them?

Dick

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From mrbill at mrbill.net  Mon Oct 23 14:15:42 2000
From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: Goodwill Computerworks Museum
In-Reply-To: <002901c03d0f$5a413300$375f273f@hkyxztrz>; from univac2@earthlink.net on Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 11:36:06AM -0500
References: <002901c03d0f$5a413300$375f273f@hkyxztrz>
Message-ID: <20001023141542.U15683@mrbill.net>

On Mon, Oct 23, 2000 at 11:36:06AM -0500, Jack Robertson wrote:
> A while back, everybody was talking about the Goodwill Computerworks Museum. 
> Can someone tell me what city that was in?
> Thanks,
> Owen

Thats here in Austin, Texas.  

http://www.goodwillcomputerworks.net

They've gotten some pictures of the "Museum" up now.  Unfortunately, 
the "middle" section of the museum has been turned back into sales
space, and they have a sign up asking for people who would like to
help them store some of the historical machines until they can get
permanent display space / storage somewhere.

Bill

-- 
Bill Bradford
mrbill@mrbill.net
Austin, TX

From b.layer at vikingelectronics.com  Mon Oct 23 14:30:21 2000
From: b.layer at vikingelectronics.com (Bill Layer)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: old MAC's
In-Reply-To: <001801c03d22$1748c000$0100a8c0@winbook>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001023141941.00cf92f0@192.168.210.18>

Hi Dick,

I'll mention again that http://www.lowendmac.com has a wealth of 
information on these old models. Even their rating system seems quite sane 
and unbiased. A little reading and you will be able to separate the good 
from the drek.

>Today I ran into a classic, a ii-lc or some such and iii-si or something 
>like that.  These latter are both those recent-looking low-profile 
>thingies.  Do they have anything of interest in them?

Here is my off-the-cuff list of Old Macs To Look Out For:

Macintosh 128k (M0001)

Classic II

Color Classic, Color Classic II

SE/30

LC-III

IIci, IIcx, IIfx

Any Quadra, with the possible exception of the Quadra 605 (aka LC475) with 
it's lack of FPU

The IIsi - with it's optional NuBus adapter w/ integrated 68882FPU this 
machine will run Linux or NetBSD.

Any PowerBook

20th Anniversary Mac (right...)

I can't think of any more right now.


Bill Layer
Sales Technician
<b.layer@vikingelectronics.com>

+----------------------------------+
      Viking Electronics, Inc.
        1531 Industrial St.
     Hudson, WI. 54016 - U.S.A
       715.386.8861 ext. 210
  <http://www.vikingelectronics.com>
+----------------------------------+

"Telecom Solutions for the 21st Century"

  


From claudew at sprint.ca  Mon Oct 23 15:03:17 2000
From: claudew at sprint.ca (Claude)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: old MAC's
References: <001801c03d22$1748c000$0100a8c0@winbook>
Message-ID: <39F49985.E42FE828@sprint.ca>

> Richard Erlacher wrote:
> 
> I've begun to see numbers of old Mac's in the various thrift stores.
> Which models are particularly interesting?  I've never had much of a
> taste for the things, but at $6-$10 each it might be worth snagging
> the things just for the disk drives, or some such.

I have about 20 compact MACs in my collection. These are the ones with
the small BW screen. They include several models, Plus, Classic, Classic
II...Most interesting are the original 128K model M00001 if I remember
well...and the Color Classic....try to find an original MAC carry bag,
they are nice...The 128K and color sell for quite a bit on e-bay but I
would never pay that much for them...You will find Classics with 40 and
80 scsi drives most of the time...also check for screen burn and week
picture tubes...90% of the classic macs have bad screen burn where the
desktop in burned into the tube...Try to find some that are not too
yellowed...You might have problems finding older type keyboards and mice
for the 512k,128k,Plus models....

> 
> Today I ran into a classic, a ii-lc or some such and iii-si or
> something like that.  These latter are both those recent-looking
> low-profile thingies.  Do they have anything of interest in them?

The IICI, IISI and other MAC II's are newer machines, no real collecting
value IMO. I do have most of the II series but I would not pay more then
$20-$25 for a well equipped one. To recent to collect and to old the do
anything contructive on...I tried www/explorer on a IICI with 32M/cache
card and it's a painfull experience...

Claude

> 
> Dick
>

From djenner at halcyon.com  Mon Oct 23 15:01:37 2000
From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: old MAC's
References: <001801c03d22$1748c000$0100a8c0@winbook>
Message-ID: <39F49921.B071D95E@halcyon.com>

Some of these aren't truly "classic" yet (<10 years),
but it's looking like the Color Classic is really a
CLASSIC.  If you want to really get carried away with
older Macs, see about the Color Classic at
	http://home.hkstar.com/~patrickn/colorclassic/

Dave

> Richard Erlacher wrote:
> 
> I've begun to see numbers of old Mac's in the various thrift stores.  Which models are
> particularly interesting?  I've never had much of a taste for the things, but at $6-$10
> each it might be worth snagging the things just for the disk drives, or some such.
> 
> Today I ran into a classic, a ii-lc or some such and iii-si or something like that.
> These latter are both those recent-looking low-profile thingies.  Do they have anything
> of interest in them?
> 
> Dick
>

From SUPRDAVE at aol.com  Mon Oct 23 17:23:45 2000
From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: old MAC's
Message-ID: <6.d083654.27261471@aol.com>

In a message dated Mon, 23 Oct 2000  2:58:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
"Richard Erlacher" <richard@idcomm.com> writes:

><< I've begun to see numbers of old Mac's in the >various thrift stores.  
Which models are particularly >interesting?  I've never had much of a taste 
for the >things, but at $6-$10 each it might be worth snagging >the things 
just for the disk drives, or some such.  

>Today I ran into a classic, a ii-lc or some such and >iii-si or something 
like that.  These latter are both >those recent-looking low-profile thingies. 
 Do they >have anything of interest in them?

Look for SE/30 or LC III or even a centris. they are powerful enough to do 
things with. Mac classic is just a redesigned SE w/ FDHD. 



From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Mon Oct 23 18:40:24 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: Stacking computers
In-Reply-To: <E7AC96207335D411B1E7009027FC284906BD2F@EXCHANGE2>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001023184024.2dd7e970@mailhost.intellistar.net>

At 01:28 PM 10/23/00 -0500, you wrote:
>I have a serious questions to ask.  How high can you pile computers and not
>damage the bottom units.  

  I gues it depends on what the bottom one is. The current cheap-o clones
probably won't hold much but you could probably park a car on a HP 9826. I
have a stack of HP-85s about 5 1/2 feet high and they're holding up fine.

    Joe


From LFessen106 at aol.com  Mon Oct 23 18:02:00 2000
From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: Stacking computers
Message-ID: <37.bcd3934.27261d69@aol.com>

In a message dated Mon, 23 Oct 2000  2:34:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
"McFadden, Mike" <mmcfadden@cmh.edu> writes:

<< I have a serious questions to ask.  How high can you pile computers and not
damage the bottom units.  
I have computers stacked along my garage walls.  For example:
MicroVAX II on bottom, three 3B2's next, AT&T Unix PC next, box of keyboards
 >>

Although this isn't exactly on topic here, I would like to promise you and 
every other Classic Comp'r on the list that if you would see fit to sell/give 
me that AT&T Unix PC, I would USE it and never stack or stuff it anywhere :-)
Seriously though, I have been hunting for one of these everywhere and can't 
seem to find one...

Linc Fessenden
members.aol.com/lfessen106


From jrkeys at concentric.net  Mon Oct 23 18:21:31 2000
From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: New Finds
Message-ID: <001701c03d47$fb7cb400$17dab0d0@default>

Well the last few weeks have been up and down not much 10plus stuff but
lots of 1 to 8 year old stuff.  At one thrift I found a PSION series 3a
manual but not the machine ( I go by each day looking for it)and at
another I found a MPF-1 User's manual and a Monitor program source
listing manual for the same board.  I'm still looking for the MPF-1
board to show up there.
Picked up a HP9114B FDD unit at an auction. At another auction I got
HP45711B Portable Plus.  That's it for now Keep on Computing.
John Keys


From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu  Mon Oct 23 18:26:35 2000
From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: old MAC's
In-Reply-To: <39F49985.E42FE828@sprint.ca> from Claude at "Oct 23, 0 04:03:17 pm"
Message-ID: <200010232326.QAA26150@stockholm.ptloma.edu>

> The IICI, IISI and other MAC II's are newer machines, no real collecting
> value IMO. I do have most of the II series but I would not pay more then
> $20-$25 for a well equipped one. To recent to collect and to old the do
> anything contructive on...I tried www/explorer on a IICI with 32M/cache
> card and it's a painfull experience...

Oh, I don't know. Until I got my 7300 I did most of my PPP on a IIsi with
5MB. A little cleverness with NCSA Telnet and Lynx, and I had a "graphical"
web browser (I wrote a program to turn portable anymaps into Tek display
commands, which NCSA Telnet then drew for me). It's just learning to make
do. The IIsi is a nice little machine, I think.

But of the 68Ks, I think the SE/30 is the most useful (to me). I use mine
as a boot server for the IIgses and as the LocalTalk server, after I stuck
a gig drive in it.

-- 
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
 Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- Marry me and I'll never look at another horse! -- Groucho Marx -------------

From pete at dunnington.u-net.com  Mon Oct 23 18:18:40 2000
From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: NatSemi 32000
In-Reply-To: "Hans Franke" <Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de>
        "Re: NatSemi 32000" (Oct 23, 20:19)
References: "Hans Franke" <Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de>        "Re: NatSemi 32000" (Oct 23  15:07) <39F49D56.26124.10B920DF@localhost>
Message-ID: <10010240018.ZM5341@indy.dunnington.u-net.com>

On Oct 23, 20:19, Hans Franke wrote:

> I stand to be corrected Pete, but at least the Chip Directory
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~ganswijk/chipdir/n/160.htm
> agrees to my memory. I may check my databooks tonight.

:-)  I'm not saying you're wrong, just remembering what may have been Acorn
marketing.  I'd be interested to see what the data books say if you find
them.

-- 

Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Dept. of Computer Science
						University of York

From johnsandel at earthlink.net  Mon Oct 23 18:21:18 2000
From: johnsandel at earthlink.net (John Sandel)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: Looking to buy ...
Message-ID: <380854780.972343279500.JavaMail.root@web621-wrb.mail.com>

I'm looking to buy a Lexbook MB-10, an 8088-based subnotebook made by Lexmark (the IBM spinoff) & discontinued in about 1994-95.

If you have one for sale or any information on Lexbooks, please let me know @ johnsandel@earthlink.net.

Thanks.

JS

 


From at258 at osfn.org  Mon Oct 23 18:34:19 2000
From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:10 2005
Subject: Ibex at last.
In-Reply-To: <39F447E8.4369.F6B6DCF@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.1001023193324.15461B-100000@osfn.org>


It's a thick notebook uuith a BASIC-80 manual also.  I could get it 
copied for ou, if you are interested.  

On Mon, 23 Oct 2000, Hans Franke 
wrote:

> > I literally stumbled over the iBEX manual uuhilst looking for something 
> > else this afternoon.
> 
> > iBEX - King of the Mountain in Microcomputers (1982)
> 
> > Martec International Electronics Corp.,
> > 20 \/\/illiam Street, \/\/ellesley, MA 02181
> > 617-237-2115
> 
> > Models:
> > 7000  5-1/4inch DSDD
> > 7102  5-1/4inch DSDD
> > 7103  5-1/4inch DSDD
> > 7150  5-1/4inch DSDD, rigid drive
> > 7202  8inch DSDD
> > 7301  8inch DSDD, rigid drive
> > 7500
> 
> > All models sem to have been CP/M machines, except the 7500, npot covered 
> > in this manual, and described as "multi-user, multi-tasking" - MP/M?
> 
> Say, is this a lot of paper ?
> I would be interested to gather all information possible
> about this machines since I have one in my Lager (thanks
> to Stefan Walgenbach).
> 
> Gruss
> H.
> 
> --
> VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen
> http://www.vintage.org/vcfe
> http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe
> 

M. K. Peirce
Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc.
215 Shady Lea Road,
North Kingstown, RI 02852

"Casta est qui nemo rogavit."
              
              - Ovid


From bkr at WildHareComputers.com  Mon Oct 23 19:46:14 2000
From: bkr at WildHareComputers.com (Bruce Ray)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: Novas are forever...
Message-ID: <008601c03d53$d0937b00$05247452@dellhare>

Since Data General is now digested by EMC I am trying even harder to acquire, restore and preserve the DG 16-bit Nova and Eclipse hardware, software and documentation.  Please let me know if anybody has DG 16-bit software, doc and hardware that needs a home...

Bruce Ray
bkr@SimuLogics.com

========================================================


To: History Preservation Buffs

In a little over 30+ years Data General has gone from exciting startup
computer company, to number two minicomputer company, to almost a footnote
in our memories.  The recent buyout by EMC has effectively closed the door
on any corporate interest in saving this important part of computer history.

A recent increase in 16-bit Nova and Eclipse activity(!) and has made us
decide to split off a separate web site - www.SimuLogics.com - to try to
deal with these situation.  The intent is to salvage, restore, preserve and
archive all of the 16-bit Nova, Eclipse and compatible hardware, software
and documentation possible.  As part of this effort we have donated most of
our own DG systems to the various museums, educational institutes and
collectors.  We are also transferring all manuals and software to CDROM to
preserve this heritage.

Various clients and vendors have also supported this effort by providing
hardware, software and documentation that we are transferring to CDROM for
archival and historical purposes.

The www.SimuLogics.com web site's nostalgia section is planned to be the
starting point for an expanded area for this highlight in computer history.

Now I'm scrounging trying to find any and all Nova- and Eclipse-type stuff
to resurrect, restore and run, and am seeking any Nova/Eclipse/RDOS/AOS
hardware/software/documentation that could be preserved - any items that
might be even loaned for testing and/or archival purposes would be
appreciated.  Also, any good tidbits or other such stuff would be great to
include in the triva section for posterity.

And third-party DG look alikes are also being sought.  Point 4, Bytronix,
Keronix and other vendors were important sub-markets within the DG area along with
third-party operating systems such as MICOS, BITS, VMOS, MUMPS and BLIS/COBOL.

And site comments/ridicule/suggestions are always welcome!


Bruce Ray
bkr@SimuLogics.com
www.SimuLogics.com


Parent company:

Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc.
P O Box 3581
Boulder, Colorado 80307-3581
USA
vox: (303) 466-7717
fax: (303) 465-5780
bkr@WildHareComputers.com
www.WildHareComputers.com




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From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Mon Oct 23 18:51:56 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: Stacking computers
Message-ID: <006f01c03d4c$6bffa9e0$27789a8d@ajp166>

From: McFadden, Mike <mmcfadden@cmh.edu>


>I wonder if pile stability is the most important, or that the heaviest
stuff
>be on the bottom, or is regular shape items on the bottom best.  Seeing
the
>floor is not a problem.


Yes, if it falls over things may break.  Apply common sense here.  Also
of the stack is too heavy for one of the lower units fix it!

>Can anyone guess what the average per foot floor load is for 3' high
>computer piles?  I'm afraid that my garage attic may collapse on the
cars if
>I stack it higher than 3'.  I'm also worried about the temperature
extremes
>in the garage attic.


I'd bet 50-100 pounds SQft for really nasty stuff and for a stack of
common
PCs down around 25.  The problem is how much can the floor hold?  If
it flexes when you stand on it that would be around say 170lb/sqft
(assuming
nominal adult person) and might represent a upper limit.

Temperature is not an issue.  Humidity and condensation are big issues.
Some plastics dont age well when hot or get very brittle when cold so
handle with care and avoid the sun (UV).  Also sitting for years is bad
for
caps so lack of use can be problematic.

The last problem varies with area but is likely everywhere,  Vermin.
Spiders, bees, roaches, mice to name a few can be very distructive
from chewing, feces, urine and introduced debries(nesting material for
one) or a hazard to the user Bee stings or other bites.  Seal stored
equipment to keep them out and keep them dry.

Allison


From cfandt at netsync.net  Mon Oct 23 20:58:40 2000
From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: Looking for bC18z and vr-290
In-Reply-To: <002901c03c9f$e11e2650$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca>
References: <4.1.20001022202117.00b3a4a0@206.231.8.2>
Message-ID: <4.1.20001023215258.03913840@206.231.8.2>

Upon the date 11:18 PM 10/22/00 -0400, Mike Kenzie said something like:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Christian Fandt" <cfandt@netsync.net>
>Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2000 9:39 PM
>Subject: Re: Looking for TMB11 Controller!
>
>
>> Hi  Kevin,
>>
>> Well, I think I've got just the thing for you!
>>
>> I intend to post the list of available DEC gear one last
>time for
>> interested takers before I have to resort to dismantling
>them for parts and
>> scrap. If things remain slow at work (i.e., finally less
>than 60+ hour
>> weeks) I'll try to post it late this week.
>
>I picked up a VAXstation II/GPX, the previous owner dropped
>the monitor and threw it out with the cable (bc18z)  now I
>have the mouse and keyboard and no where to plug them in.
>I was told that there maybe other monitors that will work
>with this machine.

Nothing really that "new" is in this batch of stuff. Sorry.

>
>I saw a picture of what I now think was this missing cable
>on ebay but it has since vanished.
>
>Will a sun monitor also work?

That I can't say. Check with the list. There's often an answer for
virtually any classic machine question -as you've probably already gathered.

>
>Another option is to remove the graphic cards and use a
>serial cable (bcc08) to attach a dumb terminal.

That, IMO, is the best work-around right now. You could use the machine
while you patiently kept a lookout for something to turn up.
I sometimes find that time is a healer of most wants :-)

Thanks much for writing and good luck with your VAXstation.

Regards,  Chris
-- --
Christian Fandt,         Electronic/Electrical Historian
Jamestown, NY  USA      cfandt@netsync.net
        Member of Antique Wireless Association                         
        URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/

From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 23 22:53:20 2000
From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: old MAC's
Message-ID: <20001024035320.38596.qmail@web9505.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Bill Layer <b.layer@vikingelectronics.com> wrote:
> Here is my off-the-cuff list of Old Macs To Look Out For:
> SE/30

Why?  
 
> Any Quadra, with the possible exception of the Quadra 605 (aka LC475) with 
> it's lack of FPU

I have a 605.  It cost me $5 at Dayton.  I use it to dump my QuickTake 150
camera and convert the images to TIFF.  Can I just drop a full 25Mhz '040
in it and rise above its limitations?
 
> Any PowerBook

Someone gave me a PB160.  It appears to have been dropped/thrown.  The plastic
mounting posts on the bottom shell were broken and the guide rod that the
floppy head slides up and down was dislodged from its mountings.  Of course
the HDA was roached.  It powers up fine, now, on external power (dead battery)
and even boots from an external disk.  Any good sources for cheap PB160 disks?
It only needs to be large enough to hold OS 7.5.x and have a couple dozen Mb
left over for the QT150 software.

Thanks,

-ethan


=====
Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to
vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com

The original webpage address is still going away.  The 
permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/

See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf!  It's FREE.
http://im.yahoo.com/

From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu  Tue Oct 24 00:27:04 2000
From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: old MAC's
In-Reply-To: <20001024035320.38596.qmail@web9505.mail.yahoo.com> from Ethan Dicks at "Oct 23, 0 08:53:20 pm"
Message-ID: <200010240527.WAA30568@stockholm.ptloma.edu>

> > Any PowerBook
> 
> Someone gave me a PB160.

Speaking of PB's, I might be inheriting an '040 520c soon. 8.1 does run
on the 040, yes? Does anyone have personal experience (not "Apple claims
it does")?

-- 
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
 Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- Life is like a simile. -----------------------------------------------------

From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Tue Oct 24 06:33:48 2000
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: NatSemi 32000
In-Reply-To: <10010240018.ZM5341@indy.dunnington.u-net.com>
References: "Hans Franke" <Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de>        "Re: NatSemi 32000" (Oct 23, 20:19)
Message-ID: <39F58FBC.12326.146C01EF@localhost>

> On Oct 23, 20:19, Hans Franke wrote:
> > I stand to be corrected Pete, but at least the Chip Directory
> > http://www.xs4all.nl/~ganswijk/chipdir/n/160.htm
> > agrees to my memory. I may check my databooks tonight.

> :-)  I'm not saying you're wrong, just remembering what may have been Acorn
> marketing.  I'd be interested to see what the data books say if you find
> them.

And o wonder, I realy found some: 4 brochures
Introduction to the NS3200 Architecture (11/84)
The Benefits of Demanded Paged Virtual Memory - Series 32000 (11/84)
The NS 32000 Benchmarks (08/83)
Series 3200(tm) Architectural Support HLL Code Generation Strategies (84)

While he first 3 contain a not on the first page reading:
"The device numbers in this
brochure are not valid due
to the name change from
NS16000 to NS32000",
and the content refers only to NS160xx, the fourth seams to be
already edited, just the title of chapter 4 still reads "NS16000
Support for Structured Data Types" - the chapter itself talks
about NS32000...

Seams like the change happened around 1984.

Gruss
H.

--
VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen
http://www.vintage.org/vcfe
http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

From rdd at smart.net  Tue Oct 24 07:56:17 2000
From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: Spiders (was: Stacking computers)
In-Reply-To: <006f01c03d4c$6bffa9e0$27789a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010240846420.9867-100000@smarty.smart.net>

On Mon, 23 Oct 2000, ajp166 wrote:
> The last problem varies with area but is likely everywhere,  Vermin.
> Spiders, bees, roaches, mice to name a few can be very distructive
  ^^^^^^^

Does anyone have a good solution for spiders other than having to
reshuffle equipment more often than is sometimes possible and vacuum
them away?  One or two little spiders here and there don't seem to be
much of a problem, but, there are spiders here in my basement that are
about an inch of so in diameter that seem to like areas where there's
light - e.g. in rafters near lightbulbs (but some still nest in other
places), and they tend to have lots of little spiders (like hundreds
hatching per web (nest sacks are between 1/4" and 1/2 in diameter".
The webbing can get so think that I once heard a ripping sound when I
pulled some circuit boards apart.  These spiders can make quite a mess
from the droppings and remains of what was caught in the webs.

I never noticed these until the past several years, and am guessing
that I may have brought them in with some computer equipment, so, be
careful when collecting.  Collecting in the summer seems to work out
best, when equipment can be _thoroughly_ disassembled and cleaned
outdoors and then brought inside.

--
Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis   "In order to maximize pleasure from money,
All Rights Reserved              one must enjoy  minimizing, and delaying, 
rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900   the spending of it; having some Scottish
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd     ancestry also helps." :-)  --RDD





From jfoust at threedee.com  Tue Oct 24 08:23:24 2000
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: Spiders (was: Stacking computers)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010240846420.9867-100000@smarty.smart.net>
References: <006f01c03d4c$6bffa9e0$27789a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001024082155.02722ab0@pc>

At 08:56 AM 10/24/00 -0400, R. D. Davis wrote:
>Does anyone have a good solution for spiders other than having to
>reshuffle equipment more often than is sometimes possible and vacuum
>them away? 

You said it - your problem isn't actually spiders, it's that your
spiders have enough to eat.  Your storage space must be attractive
to insects for some other reason, and the spiders are there to
eat the bounty.  Get rid of the bugs (don't let them in from
outdoors, seal cracks and sunlight spots, etc.) and the spiders
won't have anything to eat.

- John


From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com  Tue Oct 24 08:43:03 2000
From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: Spiders (was: Stacking computers)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010240846420.9867-100000@smarty.smart.net>
Message-ID: <000601c03dc0$5565e450$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>


>Does anyone have a good solution for spiders other
>than having to reshuffle equipment more often than
>is sometimes possible and vacuum

  1./ Eliminate edible materials.
       (Old food, dead plants, human skin dust)
  2./ The foraging insects go away.
       (Ants, Moths, Flies)
  3./ The Hunting insects go away.
       (Centipedes, Spiders)

      Now, I've heard that some beetles
           will eat insulation.
           A possible halloween scare, but
           it probably only happens in warm
           running machines.  But i've
           never seen this for myself.
           I have seen a number or rats nests
           in discarded copy machines...
           Again for the warmth I think.

John A.


From LFessen106 at aol.com  Tue Oct 24 08:49:33 2000
From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: Spiders (was: Stacking computers)
Message-ID: <a3.cf2d074.2726ed6d@aol.com>

In a message dated 10/24/00 9:46:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
John.Allain@donnelley.infousa.com writes:

> 
>  >Does anyone have a good solution for spiders other
>  >than having to reshuffle equipment more often than
>  >is sometimes possible and vacuum
>  
>  

I would suggest just sealing it in a plastic garbage bag - that's what I do, 
and not only is it an inexpensive solution, but it seems to work well also.
-Linc Fessenden
members.aol.com/lfessen106

From b.layer at vikingelectronics.com  Tue Oct 24 09:34:35 2000
From: b.layer at vikingelectronics.com (Bill Layer)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: old MAC's
In-Reply-To: <20001024035320.38596.qmail@web9505.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001024092358.00cfa810@192.168.210.18>

Good day,

>--- Bill Layer <b.layer@vikingelectronics.com> wrote:
> > Here is my off-the-cuff list of Old Macs To Look Out For:
> > SE/30
>
>Why?

Because "Richard Erlacher" <richard@idcomm.com> had asked :)

> > Any Quadra, with the possible exception of the Quadra 605 (aka LC475) with
> > it's lack of FPU
>
>I have a 605.  It cost me $5 at Dayton.  I use it to dump my QuickTake 150
>camera and convert the images to TIFF.  Can I just drop a full 25Mhz '040
>in it and rise above its limitations?

Yes, the 68040 is a drop-in replacement for the 68LC040. There is 
information out there about how to overclock that CPU as well. It is 
rumored that the Canadian 605s ran at 33/66MHz. AFAIK, the 68LC040 in your 
Quadra 605 actually runs at 50MHz internally, but on a 25MHz external bus.

Sorry to hear about the abused PowerBook.. :|




Bill Layer
Sales Technician
<b.layer@vikingelectronics.com>

+----------------------------------+
      Viking Electronics, Inc.
        1531 Industrial St.
     Hudson, WI. 54016 - U.S.A
       715.386.8861 ext. 210
  <http://www.vikingelectronics.com>
+----------------------------------+

"Telecom Solutions for the 21st Century"

  


From b.layer at vikingelectronics.com  Tue Oct 24 09:41:01 2000
From: b.layer at vikingelectronics.com (Bill Layer)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: old MAC's
In-Reply-To: <200010240527.WAA30568@stockholm.ptloma.edu>
References: <20001024035320.38596.qmail@web9505.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001024093445.00d01ce0@192.168.210.18>

Hi Cameron,

>Speaking of PB's, I might be inheriting an '040 520c soon. 8.1 does run
>on the 040, yes? Does anyone have personal experience (not "Apple claims
>it does")?

Like the LC475, my 520c has the 68LC040 processor, not the full 68040 - I 
assume your situation is the same. If I'm wrong, we can set about 
installing BSD. Linux will also run on this machine, but from what I read, 
the FPU emulation is not reliable yet.

That said, my 520c is currently running 8.X - I don't recall if it's 8.1, 
8.5 or 8.6. I don't really use it very often, but if I remember correctly 
it seems a little loaded down.


Bill Layer
Sales Technician
<b.layer@vikingelectronics.com>

+----------------------------------+
      Viking Electronics, Inc.
        1531 Industrial St.
     Hudson, WI. 54016 - U.S.A
       715.386.8861 ext. 210
  <http://www.vikingelectronics.com>
+----------------------------------+

"Telecom Solutions for the 21st Century"

  


From oliv555 at arrl.net  Tue Oct 24 10:18:05 2000
From: oliv555 at arrl.net (no)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: stuff avail
Message-ID: <39F5A82D.17B7BFA9@arrl.net>

Well, continuing my housecleaning so have some freebies
and some almost freebies available:

- dug up several boxes of unused 8" hard sector floppies
   Nashua FD132D WP-r ss/dd; as-is, nothing to verify them on
   yours for the shipping cost

The following *heavy* freebies local only (Houston area):

- Vaxstation 2000, diskless, boots to v2.1 prompt
- MicroVax 3100/10, 340mb drv, VMS v5.5-2 *has noisy fan*

Other "stuff", prefer local pickup: 

- Mac LC475, working, $10
- DEC R215F StorageArray w/1-rf31 $10
- Vaxstation 3100/m38, 24mb, v5.5-2, 2-RZ23, rx23   $25
- Vaxstation 3100/m76, 16mb, no OS, rx23     $30
- DEC SZ-12 Storage Expansion, rz57   $10 or free with above VS's
           *no cable available with this*
- HiNote Ultra II CTS5100, bare nodrive nomem deadbatt, mainbrd
   and screen working.... $20; more info on request

WANTS LIST:

- M8739 klesi-ua rc25 control
- M7740 lesi qa rc25 control
- RC25 cartridges

thanks............. nick o

From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 24 10:28:52 2000
From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: old MAC's
Message-ID: <20001024152852.84433.qmail@web9504.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Bill Layer <b.layer@vikingelectronics.com> wrote:
> Good day,
> 
> >--- Bill Layer <b.layer@vikingelectronics.com> wrote:
> > > Here is my off-the-cuff list of Old Macs To Look Out For:
> > > SE/30
> >
> >Why?
> 
> Because "Richard Erlacher" <richard@idcomm.com> had asked :)

OK... smiley aside... why the SE/30?  I happen to have one that I
replaced with the Quadra 605.  As far as B&W Macs go, it seems 
quite nice.  Unfortunately for me, I have a couple of SE Ethernet
cards, but none for the inside of the SE/30.  I have to use my
only SCSI<->Ethernet adapter with it.

> Yes, the 68040 is a drop-in replacement for the 68LC040.

I just wanted to make sure that the MacOS didn't freak if it found an FPU
in a box that didn't formerly have one.  More of an Extensions question
than a hardware question.

> There is information out there about how to overclock that CPU as well. 

Cool.  If I run across a 33Mhz '040, I'll give it a whirl.

> AFAIK, the 68LC040 in your Quadra 605 actually runs at 50MHz internally, but
> on a 25MHz external bus.

Right.  That's an '040 thing.  Motorola never emphasized it until much
later, once Intel began hyping the DX2 line of 486 processors.

> Sorry to hear about the abused PowerBook.. :|

At least it was free (to me).  I'm still looking for a 120-200Mb SCSI
disk for it for less than a buck a meg.

My Mac experience goes back to the 128K model (a buddy brought one to
work in 1984 when disks were $5 each), but is spotty.  I used to support
my mother's business when she had a room full of Mac 512Ke machines with
Dove Snap boards (memory and SCSI), Mac Pluses and Mac SEs.  Her most
powerful Mac was an SE with 4Mb of RAM and the original 18Mb disk.  She
used them until she closed her doors in 1997.  I skipped several generations
of hardware until the IIci and the Quadra 950, and have missed most of
the PowerPC stuff. 

Fun boxes that still have their uses.

-ethan


=====
Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to
vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com

The original webpage address is still going away.  The 
permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/

See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf!  It's FREE.
http://im.yahoo.com/

From korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu  Tue Oct 24 10:36:31 2000
From: korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: Mac TCP/IP networking (was Re: old MAC's)
In-Reply-To: <200010232326.QAA26150@stockholm.ptloma.edu> from Cameron Kaiser
 at "Oct 23, 2000 04:26:35 pm"
Message-ID: <200010241536.IAA07613@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu>

> But of the 68Ks, I think the SE/30 is the most useful (to me). I use mine
> as a boot server for the IIgses and as the LocalTalk server, after I stuck
> a gig drive in it.

Is it possible to remote boot a IIgs?  I wasn't aware of that.  Can you point
me to info about how it's done?  I doubt I'd do it, just curious. My IIgs
has a larger HD than any of my Macs, but I've been thinging of putting
a big drive in the IIfx I just obtained to use it as a LocalTalk server.

I'm also looking for info about how to gateway between TCP/IP over AppleTalk
and TCP/IP over ethernet.  I've got a stand alone AppleTalk<>Ethernet box,
but it appears only to transport the LocalTalk protocol without transforming
IP into the proper format.  A couple of other options I've been looking at 
are putting a AppleTalk card into a Linux box or using a Dayna SCSI Ethernet
interface on one of the Macs.  

Any ideas on how to proceed are appreciated.

Eric

From richard at idcomm.com  Tue Oct 24 10:45:45 2000
From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: Spiders (was: Stacking computers)
References: <a3.cf2d074.2726ed6d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002501c03dd1$79a835a0$0100a8c0@winbook>

Here in Colorado we have a rather significant and very persistent population
of both Black Widow spiders and Brown Recluse spiders.

I'm not a person who loves either variety, and it's annoying to have a web
attached to the two items I just set on the floor last night, but there it
is.

I've found that a few mothballs in a garbage bag together with the item in
question seems to eliminate the insects and therefore the spiders that live
on them.  Apparently the spider can survive on very little prey, and can
reproduce with little more than its now-useless mate.  Egg sacs are common
in the really obscure corners of equipment, but not when there's been enough
effort to store it in a bag with a couple of mothballs.  Those egg sacs,
BTW, are tough enough to prevent the spindle of a DC-powered floppy drive
from spinning.  They also can make it seem the head assembly is stuck,
which, of course, it is if there's an egg sac attached to it.

Now, I deal with equipment that, in general, is smaller than what most of
the "big iron" collectors use, but that's been my solution, though I've
seldom used it.  It does work, however.

Dick

----- Original Message -----
From: <LFessen106@aol.com>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 7:49 AM
Subject: Re: Spiders (was: Stacking computers)


> In a message dated 10/24/00 9:46:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> John.Allain@donnelley.infousa.com writes:
>
> >
> >  >Does anyone have a good solution for spiders other
> >  >than having to reshuffle equipment more often than
> >  >is sometimes possible and vacuum
> >
> >
>
> I would suggest just sealing it in a plastic garbage bag - that's what I
do,
> and not only is it an inexpensive solution, but it seems to work well
also.
> -Linc Fessenden
> members.aol.com/lfessen106
>
>


From jfoust at threedee.com  Tue Oct 24 10:45:57 2000
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: Cold storage
In-Reply-To: <000b01c03b7c$e53345a0$0264a8c0@mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001024104154.028dd8a0@pc>

At 09:35 AM 10/21/00 -0700, Sue & Francois wrote:
>I live in the frozen land of Minnesota, I have a 12'x16' shed full of empty
>cardboard boxes, I have a house full (and I mean full) of computers.

I've noticed that cardboard boxes don't fare well when subjected
to high humidity, either.  They lose their strength in a dramatic
fashion.  Even when dried, they don't seem quite the same.

- John


From eric at brouhaha.com  Tue Oct 24 11:18:45 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: old MAC's
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001024092358.00cfa810@192.168.210.18>
	(b.layer@vikingelectronics.com)
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001024092358.00cfa810@192.168.210.18>
Message-ID: <20001024161845.16036.qmail@brouhaha.com>

"Bill Layer" <b.layer@vikingelectronics.com> wrote:
> Yes, the 68040 is a drop-in replacement for the 68LC040. There is 
> information out there about how to overclock that CPU as well. It is 
> rumored that the Canadian 605s ran at 33/66MHz. AFAIK, the 68LC040 in your 
> Quadra 605 actually runs at 50MHz internally, but on a 25MHz external bus.

No.  The 68040 (all variants including the LC and EC) require a double-speed
clock input, but the internal pipeline does NOT execute at the double
speed.  A 68040 with 33 and 66 MHz clock inputs actually runs at 33 MHz.
Motorola documentation is very clear on this.  As soon as Motorola
atarted sending out "advanced information" data sheets it became apparent
that this would cause a lot of confusion.

Think of it more like a 2 MHz 8080 that requires a two-phase clock.
It does some internal things on one phase and some on the other.  The
68040 is similar but derives the phases internally from a double-speed
clock.

And before someone tries to "correct" me, yes, I do know that the 68040
is CMOS, and does not use traditional two-phase NMOS logic structures
like the 8080.  The reason it needs multiple phases is simply due to
the way the pipeline is structured.

More modern high-end microprocessors have internal PLLs or DLLs to
synthesize the various necessary internal timing signals so that there
is only one clock input, and usually that clock input is at a much
lower frequency than the pipeline.

From eric at brouhaha.com  Tue Oct 24 11:27:46 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: old MAC's
In-Reply-To: <20001024152852.84433.qmail@web9504.mail.yahoo.com> (message from
	Ethan Dicks on Tue, 24 Oct 2000 08:28:52 -0700 (PDT))
References: <20001024152852.84433.qmail@web9504.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20001024162746.16148.qmail@brouhaha.com>

>> AFAIK, the 68LC040 in your Quadra 605 actually runs at 50MHz internally, but
>> on a 25MHz external bus.
> 
> Right.  That's an '040 thing.  Motorola never emphasized it until much
> later, once Intel began hyping the DX2 line of 486 processors.

Motorola *never* emphasized it, because it's false.  Unlike the 486DX2,
the 68040 does NOT run at the double speed clock (50 MHz in the
example).  The pipeline stages run at the 1x clock (25 MHz).  Motorola
knew that they'd get a black eye for misrepresenting it if they claimed
it was running on the 2x clock.  It was *Apple* that decided to
misrepresent it in their advertising.

Another example of processors that need a clock input at a multiple
of the pipeline rate is the Microchip PIC, which needs 4x.

In these sort of processors, it is true that *something* happens on each
clock.  But not that a "complete operation" takes place on each clock.

For the 486DX2, which typically ran on a 33 MHz clock and internally
generated a 66 MHz clock from that, the pipeline *does* run at 66 MHz.

This in no way reflects badly on Motorola, as they documented the
behavior correctly.  It does show, however, that they were starting to
lose the CISC performance competition.  Probably because Intel was
simply able to outspend Motorola on high-end microprocessor R&D.

From ss at allegro.com  Tue Oct 24 12:00:56 2000
From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: Lexbook wanted (was: Looking to buy)
In-Reply-To: <380854780.972343279500.JavaMail.root@web621-wrb.mail.com>
Message-ID: <39F55DD8.21136.1E778573@localhost>

John Sandel (johnsandel@earthlink.net) wrote:

> I'm looking to buy a Lexbook MB-10, an 8088-based subnotebook made by Lexmark (the IBM spinoff) & discontinued in about 1994-95.
> If you have one for sale or any information on Lexbooks, please let me know @ johnsandel@earthlink.net.

I hope someone can help him out...John's a former Lexbook MB10 owner & user
who's looking to replace his now-gone old Lexbook.  He did a great 
job of digging into Lexmark a few years ago, to finally find someone 
who'd admit that Lexmark *made* notebooks!

For people wondering what a Lexbook MB-10 is, pictures and a bit
of info are at:
http://www.sieler.com/lexbook/
Stan Sieler                                           sieler@allegro.com
www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html          www.allegro.com/sieler

From cem14 at cornell.edu  Tue Oct 24 12:04:23 2000
From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: Q.: SMS model OMTI 3100 bridge
Message-ID: <39F5C117.E01960A1@cornell.edu>

I have this old Mac SCSI drive+enclosure, a Dataframe 20 model.
It came with an old Mac 512K that has a 3rd party SCSI card.
I would like to save the data from the drive for archival/historical
purposes, but I am having trouble for several reasons.
In a newer apple laptop, the hd is not recognized at all,
neither by silverlining nor by APS formatter.  And I can't
attach the drive to other machines because I don't know how
to set its SCSI ID to something other than 0.  The drive houses
an older Microscience drive and a bridge labeled
"SMS MODEL OMTI 3100"; this has, among other things, a Z8 
and a 2764.  The label on this last IC says "SUPERMAC 3103".
Everything seems to have been manufactured in 1986.

Does anybody know how to set the SCSI id for this bridge?
Will it look like a standard SCSI device to another apple, or
is this a non-standard beast?


-- 
Carlos Murillo-Sanchez    email:  cem14@cornell.edu  
428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department
Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853

From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu  Tue Oct 24 12:40:23 2000
From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: Mac TCP/IP networking (was Re: old MAC's)
In-Reply-To: <200010241536.IAA07613@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> from "Eric J. Korpela" at "Oct 24, 0 08:36:31 am"
Message-ID: <200010241740.KAA13068@stockholm.ptloma.edu>

> > But of the 68Ks, I think the SE/30 is the most useful (to me). I use mine
> > as a boot server for the IIgses and as the LocalTalk server, after I stuck
> > a gig drive in it.
> 
> Is it possible to remote boot a IIgs?  I wasn't aware of that.  Can you point
> me to info about how it's done?  I doubt I'd do it, just curious. My IIgs
> has a larger HD than any of my Macs, but I've been thinging of putting
> a big drive in the IIfx I just obtained to use it as a LocalTalk server.

It sure is, but it requires a rather specific setup. Go into the IIgs
Control Panel (I have ROM 03 IIgses; this may not work on ROM 0 or 1)
and set its startup disk to Slot 2 (as I recall, I haven't done this in awhile
and the gs isn't currently setup). Plug the LocalTalk box in. Reboot and the
machine should after a brief pause start looking for a boot server. Assuming
it finds one, it gets its boot block from it, and then you go into the whole
AFP login process from there on the IIgs.

The boot server is the tricky business. I use Finder 6.0.8 and AppleShare v2;
I got GS/OS and the Apple II boot blocks from a primary school nearby, and
then enabled Apple II booting within AppleShare Admin. I don't know if this
works on v3 but it definitely is not in v4 and higher.

-- 
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
 Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- A little inaccuracy sometimes saves tons of explanation. -- H. H. Munro ----

From b.layer at vikingelectronics.com  Tue Oct 24 12:19:11 2000
From: b.layer at vikingelectronics.com (Bill Layer)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: old MAC's
In-Reply-To: <20001024152852.84433.qmail@web9504.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20001024152852.84433.qmail@web9504.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00102412305900.00207@Billbob_linux>

Hello,

> OK... smiley aside... why the SE/30?  I happen to have one that I
> replaced with the Quadra 605.  As far as B&W Macs go, it seems 
> quite nice.  Unfortunately for me, I have a couple of SE Ethernet
> cards, but none for the inside of the SE/30.  I have to use my
> only SCSI<->Ethernet adapter with it.

I like the SE/30 for a number of reasons. One is the original compact form
factor, other reasons include:

Memory expansion.  The SE/30 has eight (8) sockets for 30pin SIMMS. I have
heard that the hardware will support 128MB of RAM, but I have never seen a
single-height 16MB 30pin SIMM in my life. I populate mine with 4MB SIMMS, for
32MB of RAM total.

CPU/FPU compliment. The 68030+68882 FPU combination is pretty quick in MacOS
7.X, and allows one to run the *nix like OSes like NetBSD or Linux.

SCSI. Sure it's like a belly button on a Mac, but gosh is it ever nice.

1.44MB Superdrive. better capacity and PC compatability. Mmmmm.

Fan. It has one.

ADB keyboard & mouse. The SE/30 has two (2) ADB ports.

Now this is a rumor that I read on lowendmac.com - but it's been said that you
can replace the SE/30 ROMs with ROMs from a IIsi, which will allow the SE/30 to
run 32bit clean with no extensions. Apparently other fixes also. Can anyone
confirm or deny this? Might someone be willing to supply me with a IIsi or set
of IIsi ROM images so I can burn a set, try it out and report back? 

-- 
Bill Layer
Sales Technician
<b.layer@vikingelectronics.com>

+----------------------------------+
     Viking Electronics, Inc.
       1531 Industrial St.
    Hudson, WI. 54016 - U.S.A
      715.386.8861 ext. 210
 <http://www.vikingelectronics.com>
+----------------------------------+

"Telecom Solutions for the 21st Century"
    Powered by Slackware Linux 7.1.0
 

From jeff.kaneko at juno.com  Tue Oct 24 12:32:17 2000
From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: old MAC's
Message-ID: <20001024.123217.-442711.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com>



On 24 Oct 2000 16:27:46 -0000 Eric Smith <eric@brouhaha.com> writes:
> This in no way reflects badly on Motorola, as they documented the
> behavior correctly.  It does show, however, that they were starting 
> to lose the CISC performance competition.  Probably because Intel was
> simply able to outspend Motorola on high-end microprocessor R&D.

Not to mention the fact that Mot had bet (and spent) heavily on the 
88000 RISC architecture and lost.  Unfortunately, the marketplace
wasn't looking for a better design; rather it simply wanted faster &
cheaper.  
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu  Tue Oct 24 12:47:39 2000
From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: old MAC's
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001024093445.00d01ce0@192.168.210.18> from Bill Layer at "Oct 24, 0 09:41:01 am"
Message-ID: <200010241747.KAA24658@stockholm.ptloma.edu>

This might be a good thread to insert this mildly OT request. stockholm, my
Apple Network Server, which has a couple of years before going on-topic, needs
60ns parity DIMMs. Anyone know of a good source at a good price? I need to
order two 32MB modules for it so I can upgrade stockholm to 128MB. I sniffed
around a few places but no one seems to sell parity RAM anymore, and PC100
DIMMs will obviously not cut it.

It's an old Mac, really. :-)

-- 
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
 Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- I am Dyslexic of Brog. Fesistence is rutile. You will be asmilsilated. -----

From b.layer at vikingelectronics.com  Tue Oct 24 12:36:33 2000
From: b.layer at vikingelectronics.com (Bill Layer)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: old MAC's
In-Reply-To: <20001024161845.16036.qmail@brouhaha.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001024092358.00cfa810@192.168.210.18> <20001024161845.16036.qmail@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <00102412394601.00207@Billbob_linux>

HI Eric,

> No.  The 68040 (all variants including the LC and EC) require a double-speed
> clock input, but the internal pipeline does NOT execute at the double
> speed.  A 68040 with 33 and 66 MHz clock inputs actually runs at 33 MHz.
> Motorola documentation is very clear on this.  As soon as Motorola
> atarted sending out "advanced information" data sheets it became apparent
> that this would cause a lot of confusion.

Hmm, what an interesting surprise. I've read information that supports my
statements in several different places on the net. If this is a 'myth to be
killed' you've got some work ahead of you...

Confusion is right! Thanks for the clarification.

 -- 
Bill Layer
Sales Technician
<b.layer@vikingelectronics.com>

+----------------------------------+
     Viking Electronics, Inc.
       1531 Industrial St.
    Hudson, WI. 54016 - U.S.A
      715.386.8861 ext. 210
 <http://www.vikingelectronics.com>
+----------------------------------+

"Telecom Solutions for the 21st Century"
    Powered by Slackware Linux 7.1.0
 

From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 24 13:05:12 2000
From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: Q.: SMS model OMTI 3100 bridge
Message-ID: <20001024180512.35378.qmail@web9505.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Carlos Murillo-Sanchez <cem14@cornell.edu> wrote:
> I have this old Mac SCSI drive+enclosure, a Dataframe 20 model.

My Mother had some Dataframe 20s with the OMTI 3100 MFM<->SCSI
card inside.

> Does anybody know how to set the SCSI id for this bridge?

Not without looking at a picture of the card.

> Will it look like a standard SCSI device to another apple, or
> is this a non-standard beast?

AFAIK, it is just a standard, pre-SCSI-2 interface.  You will *not*
be able to issue IDENT commands against it to divine the drive
geometry.  You have to _know_ the heads/tracks/sectors of the MFM drive
(there are lists of those out there - I was just looking up the XT2190
today and only found 47 hits with Altavista - it's a good keyword to
use to find MFM drive lists)

The problem is probably the third-party controller.  It may or may not
count on a certain set of contents of the first cylinder or two.  With
the right driver disk, you could reformat that drive on a more modern
Mac, but you want data recovery.

If you can't change the SCSI id of the Hardframe, why not change the id
of the boot disk in your target Mac?

-ethan


=====
Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to
vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com

The original webpage address is still going away.  The 
permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/

See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf!  It's FREE.
http://im.yahoo.com/

From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com  Tue Oct 24 13:11:59 2000
From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: Cold storage
In-Reply-To: <000b01c03b7c$e53345a0$0264a8c0@mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <000101c03de5$e7762a60$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>

> Should I insulate the shed first? 


I'd like to say a bit on insulation.

Seems that warming cold metal with warm air is a bad
thing.  The way the air reacts to a cold object is by
dumping its moisture on it and moisture leads to rust.
The bigger problem with outside storage is not 
necessarily extreme hot or cold, but here the degree of 
temperature change over a small period of time, like 
a day.
And the more closely storage is left to the outside air,
the more vulnerabe to temperature fluctuations things
get.  This was summed up to me nicely by a friend who 
happens to be an industrial engineer.

So to make a long story short: less insulation equals
more rust.

John A.

From cem14 at cornell.edu  Tue Oct 24 13:39:03 2000
From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: old MAC's
References: <20001024152852.84433.qmail@web9504.mail.yahoo.com> <00102412305900.00207@Billbob_linux>
Message-ID: <39F5D747.3C733147@cornell.edu>

Bill Layer wrote:
> Now this is a rumor that I read on lowendmac.com - but it's been said that you
> can replace the SE/30 ROMs with ROMs from a IIsi, which will allow the SE/30 to
> run 32bit clean with no extensions. Apparently other fixes also. Can anyone
> confirm or deny this? Might someone be willing to supply me with a IIsi or set
> of IIsi ROM images so I can burn a set, try it out and report back?

But the ROMs in a IIsi are 4Mbit, square 44 pin SMDs.  That's
a delicate surgery you are talking about.

Carlos.

-- 
Carlos Murillo-Sanchez    email:  cem14@cornell.edu  
428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department
Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853

From SPEDRAJA at mail.ono.es  Tue Oct 24 14:11:20 2000
From: SPEDRAJA at mail.ono.es (Sergio Pedraja Cabo)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #407
In-Reply-To: <200010241536.KAA85702@opal.tseinc.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBIBDKIMIOHBDBOBCIIEPMCBAA.SPEDRAJA@mail.ono.es>


Hello. I'm new in the list. I write from 
Spain; my name is Sergio. I have one question 
to somebody that can answer it: Can it be 
possible to obtain some sort of info about 
"Compatible Time-Sharing System (CTSS)" from 
the M.I.T ? I'm interested to do one IBM 7094 
emulator and I should like to made on it the 
modification that was made in the machine 
that rans the CTSS. I think that there was 
some manuals from MIT press ans internals. 
I suppose that can be possible to obtain 
it paying. I should like to hear something 
about this.

Same thing is applicable to Multics question. 
Somebody is doing a Honeywell 635/645 emulator 
like I could confirm one week ago; in this way, 
a primitive version of Multics may be sufficient, 
I think.

In both cases we think in Java like the platform 
to do the work. In my particular case I want to 
do some other emulators (Univac I, IBM 701, 
IBM 1401 and IBM 650) because I have some info 
about them (opcodes, etc). There is only a 
question about the Univac I that nobody resolvs: 
Can it be possible to obtain a detailed diagram 
from the Main Console of the Univac I ?

Well, that all. Thanks.

----------
Sergio Pedraja
Administracion de Sistemas
Division de Tecnologia
Caja Cantabria
Spain
----------


From sean at techcare.com  Tue Oct 24 14:12:15 2000
From: sean at techcare.com (Sean Caron)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: stuff avail
References: <39F5A82D.17B7BFA9@arrl.net>
Message-ID: <020101c03dee$5243cde0$0c00000a@techcare.com>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "no" <oliv555@arrl.net>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 11:18 AM
Subject: stuff avail


> Well, continuing my housecleaning so have some freebies
> and some almost freebies available:
> 
> - dug up several boxes of unused 8" hard sector floppies
>    Nashua FD132D WP-r ss/dd; as-is, nothing to verify them on
>    yours for the shipping cost
> 
> The following *heavy* freebies local only (Houston area):
> 
> - Vaxstation 2000, diskless, boots to v2.1 prompt
> - MicroVax 3100/10, 340mb drv, VMS v5.5-2 *has noisy fan*
> 
> Other "stuff", prefer local pickup: 
> 
> - Mac LC475, working, $10
> - DEC R215F StorageArray w/1-rf31 $10
> - Vaxstation 3100/m38, 24mb, v5.5-2, 2-RZ23, rx23   $25
> - Vaxstation 3100/m76, 16mb, no OS, rx23     $30
> - DEC SZ-12 Storage Expansion, rz57   $10 or free with above VS's
>            *no cable available with this*
> - HiNote Ultra II CTS5100, bare nodrive nomem deadbatt, mainbrd
>    and screen working.... $20; more info on request
> 
> WANTS LIST:
> 
> - M8739 klesi-ua rc25 control
> - M7740 lesi qa rc25 control
> - RC25 cartridges
> 
> thanks............. nick o
> 

Hi! I'd be interested in the M76, although there would be shipping
involved :) Please let me know.

Sorry about posting this to the list, but I couldn't find a personal
e-mail address.

Thanks,

--Sean Caron (root@diablonet.net) | http://www.diablonet.net


From cem14 at cornell.edu  Tue Oct 24 14:16:42 2000
From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: Q.: SMS model OMTI 3100 bridge
References: <20001024180512.35378.qmail@web9505.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <39F5E01A.78D3392@cornell.edu>

Ethan Dicks wrote:
> 
> --- Carlos Murillo-Sanchez <cem14@cornell.edu> wrote:
> > I have this old Mac SCSI drive+enclosure, a Dataframe 20 model.
> 
> My Mother had some Dataframe 20s with the OMTI 3100 MFM<->SCSI
> card inside.
> 
> > Does anybody know how to set the SCSI id for this bridge?
> 
> Not without looking at a picture of the card.

Here's a picture:

http://huey.ee.cornell.edu/omti3100.jpg

> > Will it look like a standard SCSI device to another apple, or
> > is this a non-standard beast?
> 
> AFAIK, it is just a standard, pre-SCSI-2 interface.  You will *not*
> be able to issue IDENT commands against it to divine the drive
> geometry.  You have to _know_ the heads/tracks/sectors of the MFM drive
> (there are lists of those out there - I was just looking up the XT2190
> today and only found 47 hits with Altavista - it's a good keyword to
> use to find MFM drive lists)

Ok.  What I was trying to do was to mount it on a system that
has IDE drives, so that SCSI ID zero was free.  But the powerbook 660
failed to mount it.  Note that it works fine in the original Mac 512K.

> The problem is probably the third-party controller.  It may or may not
> count on a certain set of contents of the first cylinder or two.  With
> the right driver disk, you could reformat that drive on a more modern
> Mac, but you want data recovery.

I see.  If this is the case, then, I'm afraid that the only recovery
route is 25 x 400k floppies.

> If you can't change the SCSI id of the Hardframe, why not change the id
> of the boot disk in your target Mac?

Oh, it is an easy-access issue.  I could do this on a IIci or an SE/30.
But the IIci's drive cost some effort to put in place, since it is
a 68pin model, and with the 50 pin adapterit barely fits in the bay.
And the SE/30... well, I was trying to avoid opening it.  I try to
open compact macs only as a last resort, since there is always a
chance of breaking the CRT neck.  Much better to change the SCSI id
in the OMTI board if possible.


Carlos.
-- 
Carlos Murillo-Sanchez    email:  cem14@cornell.edu  
428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department
Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853

From eric at brouhaha.com  Tue Oct 24 14:23:23 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: old MAC's
In-Reply-To: <00102412394601.00207@Billbob_linux>
	(b.layer@vikingelectronics.com)
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001024092358.00cfa810@192.168.210.18> <20001024161845.16036.qmail@brouhaha.com> <00102412394601.00207@Billbob_linux>
Message-ID: <20001024192323.17687.qmail@brouhaha.com>

I wrote:
> No.  The 68040 (all variants including the LC and EC) require a double-speed
> clock input, but the internal pipeline does NOT execute at the double
> speed.  A 68040 with 33 and 66 MHz clock inputs actually runs at 33 MHz.

Bill Layer wrote:
> Hmm, what an interesting surprise. I've read information that supports my
> statements in several different places on the net. If this is a 'myth to be
> killed' you've got some work ahead of you...

I'm not on any crusade to kill it.  But I'll comment when and where I
happen to see it.

It matters not one bit to me that there's a lot of bogus information
about it on the web.  None of that has any credibility since it is
flat out contradicted by an authoritative source, the MC68040 User Manual.

Apple's calling them 50 or 66 MHz is an example of what's known as a
"marketing breakthrough".  See the TV "Dish" Antenna advertisement on
the milk.com Wall of Shame for a particulary good example of this
phenomena.  What especially distinguishes that particular marketing
breakthrough is that they actually explicitly claim IN THE ADVERTISEMENT
that it is "a marketing breakthrough"!

	http://www.milk.com/wall-o-shame/dish.html

Best regards,
Eric

From richard at idcomm.com  Tue Oct 24 14:24:04 2000
From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: SMS model OMTI 3100 bridge
References: <39F5C117.E01960A1@cornell.edu>
Message-ID: <002d01c03def$f992cf00$0100a8c0@winbook>

There's one of the same devices, Microscience drive and all, sitting at one
of the local surplus vendors.  Unfortunately they don't know anything about
it either.  It may respond to only one SCSI address, however, though you can
easily modify that if it's the case.

The one I'm writing about has no external shell, so it's complete except for
the cover, but it's clearly a 31xx series OMTI controller with the Z8 and
2764.  I imagine it costs about what the 2764's in the parts drawers cost,
though it's probably a 110 MB drive or so.

Dick

----- Original Message -----
From: Carlos Murillo-Sanchez <cem14@cornell.edu>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 11:04 AM
Subject: Q.: SMS model OMTI 3100 bridge


> I have this old Mac SCSI drive+enclosure, a Dataframe 20 model.
> It came with an old Mac 512K that has a 3rd party SCSI card.
> I would like to save the data from the drive for archival/historical
> purposes, but I am having trouble for several reasons.
> In a newer apple laptop, the hd is not recognized at all,
> neither by silverlining nor by APS formatter.  And I can't
> attach the drive to other machines because I don't know how
> to set its SCSI ID to something other than 0.  The drive houses
> an older Microscience drive and a bridge labeled
> "SMS MODEL OMTI 3100"; this has, among other things, a Z8
> and a 2764.  The label on this last IC says "SUPERMAC 3103".
> Everything seems to have been manufactured in 1986.
>
> Does anybody know how to set the SCSI id for this bridge?
> Will it look like a standard SCSI device to another apple, or
> is this a non-standard beast?
>
>
> --
> Carlos Murillo-Sanchez    email:  cem14@cornell.edu
> 428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department
> Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853
>
>


From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Tue Oct 24 15:27:07 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: Mac TCP/IP networking
In-Reply-To: <200010241536.IAA07613@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu>
References: <200010232326.QAA26150@stockholm.ptloma.edu> from Cameron
 Kaiser at "Oct 23, 2000 04:26:35 pm"
Message-ID: <l03102802b61b9f37e730@[192.168.1.4]>

>> But of the 68Ks, I think the SE/30 is the most useful (to me). I use mine
>> as a boot server for the IIgses and as the LocalTalk server, after I stuck
>> a gig drive in it.
>
>Is it possible to remote boot a IIgs?  I wasn't aware of that.  Can you point
>me to info about how it's done?  I doubt I'd do it, just curious. My IIgs
>has a larger HD than any of my Macs, but I've been thinging of putting
>a big drive in the IIfx I just obtained to use it as a LocalTalk server.
>
>I'm also looking for info about how to gateway between TCP/IP over AppleTalk
>and TCP/IP over ethernet.  I've got a stand alone AppleTalk<>Ethernet box,
>but it appears only to transport the LocalTalk protocol without transforming
>IP into the proper format.  A couple of other options I've been looking at
>are putting a AppleTalk card into a Linux box or using a Dayna SCSI Ethernet
>interface on one of the Macs.
>
>Any ideas on how to proceed are appreciated.
>
>Eric

If you want TCP/IP and want to support IIgs as well as mac, the only
solution I know of is the FastPath 4 made first by Kinetics, then Shiva.
The downside is that these boxes are not trivial to figure out how to setup
(then again they to a LOT of tricks). I have a dozen or so of them, with
one waiting to ship just as soon as I figure out the setup just a little
better. (I found a manual last week, which should help). The upside is that
nobody knows about them and they sell pretty cheap (around $25 to $50
used), and they do stuff you wouldn't even guess at like Ip tunneling. The
Fastpath 5 is newer etc., but the 4 seems from what I have read to be more
friendly to Apple II clients.



From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Tue Oct 24 15:49:48 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: auctions?
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001024154948.3937a544@mailhost.intellistar.net>

  Does anyone on the list have a recommendation for a good internet auction
service?  Not E-bay! I can't get E-bay's computer to accept any of my
auctions! I also haven't been able to post any feedback since August. I've
E-mailed them at least ten times and they keep telling me that there's
nothing wrong with their system, they've fixed the problem, etc etc etc but
the problems persist.

    Joe


From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Tue Oct 24 11:23:09 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: Spiders (was: Stacking computers)
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB268@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>


> On Mon, 23 Oct 2000, ajp166 wrote:
> > The last problem varies with area but is likely everywhere,  Vermin.
> > Spiders, bees, roaches, mice to name a few can be very distructive
>   ^^^^^^^
> 
> Does anyone have a good solution for spiders other than having to
> reshuffle equipment more often than is sometimes possible and vacuum
> them away?  One or two little spiders here and there don't seem to be
> much of a problem, but, there are spiders here in my basement that are
> about an inch of so in diameter that seem to like areas where there's
> light - e.g. in rafters near lightbulbs (but some still nest in other
> places), and they tend to have lots of little spiders (like hundreds
> hatching per web (nest sacks are between 1/4" and 1/2 in diameter".
> The webbing can get so think that I once heard a ripping sound when I
> pulled some circuit boards apart.  These spiders can make quite a mess
> from the droppings and remains of what was caught in the webs.

Man! Those suckers are h-u-g-e!

I let spiders run free in my house, I've noticed that they keep
the roach population down. But they've never turned into these 
mutants you're having trouble with.

The bug that plagues my old stuff in the basement are these
crickets that are about the same size, 1 inch, as your spiders.
They're even more intimidating as they jump when they are
startled, paradoxically, in the direction of the intrustion- me.

Anybody having trouble with fungal growth?

Glad I don't live on Mir...  -dq

From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Tue Oct 24 11:39:29 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: Spiders (was: Stacking computers)
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB269@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>

> >Does anyone have a good solution for spiders other
> >than having to reshuffle equipment more often than
> >is sometimes possible and vacuum
> 
>   1./ Eliminate edible materials.
>        (Old food, dead plants, human skin dust)
>   2./ The foraging insects go away.
>        (Ants, Moths, Flies)
>   3./ The Hunting insects go away.
>        (Centipedes, Spiders)
> 
>       Now, I've heard that some beetles
>            will eat insulation.
>            A possible halloween scare, but
>            it probably only happens in warm
>            running machines.  But i've
>            never seen this for myself.
>            I have seen a number or rats nests
>            in discarded copy machines...
>            Again for the warmth I think.

While the bug stuff doesn't faze me, I should point out
that you should not mess with rodent droppings without
wearing a respirator. Hantavirus, spread though rodent
droppings, is no longer confined to the southwest.

-dq
 

From sean at techcare.com  Tue Oct 24 15:22:07 2000
From: sean at techcare.com (Sean Caron)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: Mac TCP/IP networking
References: <200010232326.QAA26150@stockholm.ptloma.edu> from Cameron Kaiser at "Oct 23, 2000 04:26:35 pm" <l03102802b61b9f37e730@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <021101c03df8$14ee9e20$0c00000a@techcare.com>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Ford" <mikeford@socal.rr.com>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 4:27 PM
Subject: Re: Mac TCP/IP networking


> >> But of the 68Ks, I think the SE/30 is the most useful (to me). I use
mine
> >> as a boot server for the IIgses and as the LocalTalk server, after I
stuck
> >> a gig drive in it.
> >
> >Is it possible to remote boot a IIgs?  I wasn't aware of that.  Can you
point
> >me to info about how it's done?  I doubt I'd do it, just curious. My IIgs
> >has a larger HD than any of my Macs, but I've been thinging of putting
> >a big drive in the IIfx I just obtained to use it as a LocalTalk server.
> >
> >I'm also looking for info about how to gateway between TCP/IP over
AppleTalk
> >and TCP/IP over ethernet.  I've got a stand alone AppleTalk<>Ethernet
box,
> >but it appears only to transport the LocalTalk protocol without
transforming
> >IP into the proper format.  A couple of other options I've been looking
at
> >are putting a AppleTalk card into a Linux box or using a Dayna SCSI
Ethernet
> >interface on one of the Macs.
> >
> >Any ideas on how to proceed are appreciated.
> >
> >Eric
>
> If you want TCP/IP and want to support IIgs as well as mac, the only
> solution I know of is the FastPath 4 made first by Kinetics, then Shiva.
> The downside is that these boxes are not trivial to figure out how to
setup
> (then again they to a LOT of tricks). I have a dozen or so of them, with
> one waiting to ship just as soon as I figure out the setup just a little
> better. (I found a manual last week, which should help). The upside is
that
> nobody knows about them and they sell pretty cheap (around $25 to $50
> used), and they do stuff you wouldn't even guess at like Ip tunneling. The
> Fastpath 5 is newer etc., but the 4 seems from what I have read to be more
> friendly to Apple II clients.
>
>
>

There was also a slick little series of devices made by Cayman called the
GatorBox. They would bridge pretty much any protocol (TCP/IP, Appletalk,
and even DECnet) over LocalTalk to Ethernet and back.

I don't know how easy they are to track down; I've got a GatorBox CS
Rack-mount that I was looking forward to playing with, unfortunately it
appears as if the previously owning institution (a local university) set a
password on it that I am not able to remove (apparently Cayman is no
longer assisting people with lockouts as they are in the DSL business
now, and seem rather uninterested in supporting their old product
line).

In any case, nice little devices; I just wish mine worked :)

--Sean Caron (root@diablonet.net) | http://www.diablonet.net


From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Tue Oct 24 15:45:30 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: old MAC's
In-Reply-To: <39F5D747.3C733147@cornell.edu>
References: <20001024152852.84433.qmail@web9504.mail.yahoo.com>
 <00102412305900.00207@Billbob_linux>
Message-ID: <l03102805b61ba5435376@[192.168.1.4]>

>Bill Layer wrote:
>> Now this is a rumor that I read on lowendmac.com - but it's been said
>>that you
>> can replace the SE/30 ROMs with ROMs from a IIsi, which will allow the
>>SE/30 to
>> run 32bit clean with no extensions. Apparently other fixes also. Can anyone
>> confirm or deny this? Might someone be willing to supply me with a IIsi
>>or set
>> of IIsi ROM images so I can burn a set, try it out and report back?
>
>But the ROMs in a IIsi are 4Mbit, square 44 pin SMDs.  That's
>a delicate surgery you are talking about.

Some also had a rom simm, but I think more common is to rob a IIfx rom simm.



From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Tue Oct 24 16:56:24 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: Mac TCP/IP networking
In-Reply-To: <021101c03df8$14ee9e20$0c00000a@techcare.com>
References: <200010232326.QAA26150@stockholm.ptloma.edu> from Cameron
 Kaiser at "Oct 23, 2000 04:26:35 pm" <l03102802b61b9f37e730@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <l03102807b61bb524111d@[192.168.1.4]>

>There was also a slick little series of devices made by Cayman called the
>GatorBox. They would bridge pretty much any protocol (TCP/IP, Appletalk,
>and even DECnet) over LocalTalk to Ethernet and back.
>
>I don't know how easy they are to track down; I've got a GatorBox CS
>Rack-mount that I was looking forward to playing with, unfortunately it
>appears as if the previously owning institution (a local university) set a
>password on it that I am not able to remove (apparently Cayman is no
>longer assisting people with lockouts as they are in the DSL business
>now, and seem rather uninterested in supporting their old product
>line).

The Cayman makes the FastPath look plug and play, mostly as you notice the
support really stinks. OTOH I also have a couple Cayman boxes, and I
remember downloading all the files off the cayman ftp at some point. If you
can accept a big email attachment, email me directly and I will send it off
to you.

BTW the key item though is MacTCP encapsulation, which I don't know that
the Cayman does, and the FastPath I am sure of.



From broekh at interchange.ubc.ca  Tue Oct 24 17:00:13 2000
From: broekh at interchange.ubc.ca (Henry Broekhuyse)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: Mac TCP/IP networking
In-Reply-To: <l03102807b61bb524111d@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <000401c03e05$c923d060$0200a8c0@thinkpad>

There are at least two products that will perform TCP/IP "encapsulation"
into Appletalk using a Mac:

1. A current product called IPNetRouter. See:
http://www.sustworks.com/site/ipr_guide/localtalk.html
It will run on all current Macs.

2. An old Apple product called "Apple IP Gateway". See:
http://til.info.apple.com/techinfo.nsf/artnum/n16705
This product will not run on PCI Macs or on Macs running "Open Transport".

The documentation for these products also discusses how to set up the client
software using MacTCP or Open Transport.



From foo at siconic.com  Tue Oct 24 15:54:24 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: Spiders (was: Stacking computers)
In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB268@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010241349120.24268-100000@siconic.com>

On Tue, 24 Oct 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote:

> Man! Those suckers are h-u-g-e!

I'll be a doody-head and take this off-topic a bit...I have had these big
spiders in my house a couple times.  They are scary mothers.  I usually
catch them and chuck them into the gutter drainage outside on my street (I
don't want to kill them but then I don't want them easily finding their
way back into my garage).  One time I came across one that was big and
hairy looking.  I captured it in a cup, and then dumped her inside a jug
of some sort.  All of a sudden she exploded apart and then there was a
horde of tiny little spiders all over the jug.  It turns out she was
carrying all her babies who were clinging to every part of her body making
her look big and scary.  It was the funniest thing I had ever seen.

> I let spiders run free in my house, I've noticed that they keep
> the roach population down. But they've never turned into these 
> mutants you're having trouble with.

I don't mind the spiders so much but my wife hates them.  But I do hate it
when they leave webs every damn where, and then droppings of all sorts
which I've been unable to identify (is it poop or the parts of the bugs
they catch that they don't like to eat?)

> Anybody having trouble with fungal growth?

Yeah, but I don't think anyone wants to hear about my particular fungal
growth ;)

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Tue Oct 24 17:48:04 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: Spiders (was: Stacking computers)
Message-ID: <003c01c03e0c$ed3cac40$36789a8d@ajp166>

From: R. D. Davis <rdd@smart.net>


>Does anyone have a good solution for spiders other than having to
>reshuffle equipment more often than is sometimes possible and vacuum


Insecticide will slow them down, but they are eating other bugs.

>The webbing can get so think that I once heard a ripping sound when I
>pulled some circuit boards apart.  These spiders can make quite a mess
>from the droppings and remains of what was caught in the webs.


Jeepers, why did I suggest packaging stuff to protect it from things like
that?

>I never noticed these until the past several years, and am guessing
>that I may have brought them in with some computer equipment, so, be
>careful when collecting.  Collecting in the summer seems to work out
>best, when equipment can be _thoroughly_ disassembled and cleaned
>outdoors and then brought inside.


They found a good place to hid and did.  Likely they were there but
now there are more places to hide and maybe other bugs to eat so
they are being fruitful, multiplying and also making a mess.

Allison



From jpero at sympatico.ca  Tue Oct 24 14:16:53 2000
From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: Spiders (was: Stacking computers)
In-Reply-To: <003c01c03e0c$ed3cac40$36789a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <20001024230945.WDRC1583.tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net@pii350>

> From:          "ajp166" <ajp166@bellatlantic.net>
> To:            <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
> Subject:       Re: Spiders (was: Stacking computers)
> Date:          Tue, 24 Oct 2000 18:48:04 -0400
> Reply-to:      classiccmp@classiccmp.org

Spiders follows those bugs where they goes.   Make that areas 
unfriendly to all bugs and both spiders and bugs will bother to find 
another suitable shelters everywhere else.  This don't have to be 
chemcials to do so.  Elimate the food & water sources also denying 
point of entries are enough.  Just a trace is *PLENTY* for number of 
bugs to live on.   Good one I ever heard of that hardy survival time 
when one trapped a live roach walking across window w/ clear 2" tape 
on glass pane.  Left there.  Lasted few weeks, no food, no water.

Last year inside the bus stop shelter, I saw *perfect* little round 
spots everywhere in clusters (appox 2mm to 4mm) on all horizontal 
surfaces mostly near corners and didn't know what they're are coming 
from till I looked up and made the 2 and 2 added up.  Webs = 
spider!  All spiders survives by sucking up liquidifed guts by 
injected  verom.  Digested remains comes out in liquid too in 
evidence of dots.

> They found a good place to hid and did.  Likely they were there but
> now there are more places to hide and maybe other bugs to eat so
> they are being fruitful, multiplying and also making a mess.

Right.

> 
> Allison

Wizard

From bobcaar at cyberdude.com  Tue Oct 24 18:11:19 2000
From: bobcaar at cyberdude.com (Devon)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: Recovering Sysadmin
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20001024191119.008224b0@mail.iname.com>

>Hans Franke wrote:
>
>> C'me on, there's always anpther solution......
>
>Unfortunately, there might not be.  We're going to be moving shortly,
>and it's next to impossible to take the PDP-11 with us. :(  I've been
>able to keep it up until now, but with moving preparations on the go,
>it's coming down to decision time.
>
>Thing is, how does one get rid of a PDP-11 in a couple of weeks?  I
>can't imagine there's a huge market for them in Toronto (and I am NOT
>shipping this thing).
>

So, You're looking to get rid of your PDP, I see?  I'm sure I could give it
a good home :)  I've been looking for one locally (Toronto area).  If you
can't take it with you when you move, give me a shout.

Also, does anyone know if Nortel/Northern Telecom mass produced Unibus
telephone/audio boards at anytime? (A friend *believes* he found some, I'm
going to pick up the boards in a couple of weeks and we'll see.)

	T.H.x.
		Devon

>- -- 
>
>
>Tim Harrison
>Network Engineer
>harrison@timharrison.com
>http://www.networklevel.com/


From donm at cts.com  Tue Oct 24 19:20:35 2000
From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: TI99/4 in its box available
Message-ID: <Pine.SCO.4.20.0010231353320.28410-100000@crash.cts.com>


A chap here in San Diego just called me to tell that he has a TI-99/4A
available to someone who would use it.  It is complete with cords and
manuals and in original box. 

Shipping would be at recipient's cost and would be from 921nn.  

Email me off-list if interested.  

						 - don




From rdd at smart.net  Tue Oct 24 21:07:01 2000
From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:11 2005
Subject: Mothballs and copper (was: Spiders)
In-Reply-To: <002501c03dd1$79a835a0$0100a8c0@winbook>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010242153350.4958-100000@smarty.smart.net>

On Tue, 24 Oct 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote:
> I've found that a few mothballs in a garbage bag together with the item in
> question seems to eliminate the insects and therefore the spiders that live

A word of caution: a few years back, several people warned me about the use
of mothballs around computers and other electronic equipment.  I was told
that if near copper (not necessarily right next to it) a chemical reaction
can result that harms the copper (e.g. some circuit boards, etc.).  Has
anyone here heard anything about this?

--
Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis   "In order to maximize pleasure from money,
All Rights Reserved              one must enjoy  minimizing, and delaying, 
rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900   the spending of it; having some Scottish
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd     ancestry also helps." :-)  --RDD





From rdd at smart.net  Tue Oct 24 21:38:20 2000
From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: Spiders (was: Stacking computers)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010241349120.24268-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010242209570.4958-100000@smarty.smart.net>


On Tue, 24 Oct 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote:
> I'll be a doody-head and take this off-topic a bit...I have had these big
> spiders in my house a couple times.  They are scary mothers.  I usually
> catch them and chuck them into the gutter drainage outside on my street (I
> don't want to kill them but then I don't want them easily finding their

Yes, I know what you mean; when I can catch them, and put them
outside, I prefer do the same; I don't like killing other creatures,
including arachnids and insects.  The problem arises when there are
more than I can easily count or get to to put outside.  :-(

> way back into my garage).  One time I came across one that was big and
> hairy looking.  I captured it in a cup, and then dumped her inside a jug

Neat!  I've seen a few like that in the garden; very colorful too ,
and have seen a very few smaller hairy ones in the house over the
years... looked a bit like those little black jumping spiders.

> of some sort.  All of a sudden she exploded apart and then there was a
> horde of tiny little spiders all over the jug.  It turns out she was
> carrying all her babies who were clinging to every part of her body making
> her look big and scary.  It was the funniest thing I had ever seen.

With some loud-mouthed neighbors with noisy offspring across the
street, I hope no humans can do that! :-/

> I don't mind the spiders so much but my wife hates them.  But I do hate it
> when they leave webs every damn where, and then droppings of all sorts
> which I've been unable to identify (is it poop or the parts of the bugs
> they catch that they don't like to eat?)

I agree.  It seems that it's a combination of both; makes a mess of
computers.  The biggest problem area is just inside a roll-up garage
door.  I've caulked, replaced the bottom door seal, etc. but there are
still areas where small insects and spiders get in and congregate
right near the door, with spiders (those big ones) dangling from the
door when I lift it up.  They appear to like biting ankles.

--
Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis   "In order to maximize pleasure from money,
All Rights Reserved              one must enjoy  minimizing, and delaying, 
rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900   the spending of it; having some Scottish
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd     ancestry also helps." :-)  --RDD





From foxnhare at jps.net  Tue Oct 24 22:19:12 2000
From: foxnhare at jps.net (Larry Anderson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: Classic Macs
References: <200010241536.KAA85702@opal.tseinc.com>
Message-ID: <39F65112.F7A3372D@jps.net>

> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 13:01:37 -0700
> From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner@halcyon.com>
> Subject: Re: old MAC's
> 
> Some of these aren't truly "classic" yet (<10 years),
> but it's looking like the Color Classic is really a
> CLASSIC.  If you want to really get carried away with
> older Macs, see about the Color Classic at
>         http://home.hkstar.com/~patrickn/colorclassic/
> 
> Dave

We have a couple Color Classics at work a max of 10 megs RAM and 16mghz
speed makes it mighty slow (even with the MicroMac Accelerators)...

If you are looking for something "compact" and to "play" with the Macs I
would look out for:

SE SuperDrive (able to use the HD disks, also can support dual drives
and hard drive)
SE/30 (first 68030 compact mac, some people consider thse good to have
around for net stuff.)
Classic II (more limited than the SE-30 but faster than other compact macs)
IIci (the cx and si are slower, also note the IIci is the last Mac
capable of running System 6)
IIfx (big, fast, but uses weird RAMs)
LC-III
Quadra 605/LC475 (no MMU but 25mghz speed, good kids internet box)
631-CD (last of the 68040s, but a good one - my first Mac - at home)
Macs in the 1000s are PowerMacs.  Note some caveats on those:
* 61xx (uses a non-standard video connector!)
* 7100 (uses a non-standard video connector & NEEDS a standard video
card doe to electronic design)


Heck just check out http://www.lowendmac.com/ Low end Mac is a great
site for tips and tidbits on the older macs.  Though some of their "Road
Apples" are computers I like.
-- 
01000011 01001111 01001101 01001101 01001111 01000100 01001111 01010010 01000101
   Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS  (209) 754-1363 
300-14.4k bps
     Classic Commodore pages at:  http://www.jps.net/foxnhare/commodore.html
01000011 01001111 01001101 01010000 01010101 01010100 01000101 01010010 01010011

From rws at enteract.com  Tue Oct 24 22:39:29 2000
From: rws at enteract.com (Richard W. Schauer)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: DEC RP06 power
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0010242220390.48946-100000@shell-3.enteract.com>

I've recently acquired an RP06 as part of a PDP-11/44 system, and I wish
to run it (why not?)  I remember reading on this list a while back, that
it could be operated on single-phase power instead of three-phase.  I got
a printset along with the drive, and it's pretty unclear about what would
use the three-phase- it's almost like the third phase is ignored, the 208v
between the first two phases is fed to the transformer, and the primary is
sort-of center tapped to feed the 115 volt fans.  Is this right?  How
would I go about feeding it single-phase if that isn't right?

While we're on the subject of three-phase, a couple of weeks ago Bill
Bradford asked about re-wiring a VAX 6000 for single-phase.  I never saw
any response.  Anything new from anybody?

(I really need to get three-phase in my house)

Richard Schauer
rws@enteract.com




From djenner at halcyon.com  Tue Oct 24 22:46:09 2000
From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: Classic Macs
References: <200010241536.KAA85702@opal.tseinc.com> <39F65112.F7A3372D@jps.net>
Message-ID: <39F65781.4A6B62CC@halcyon.com>

I guess maybe you didn't follow the Web links.

These guys have upgraded the Color Classic to Power
Mac G3 CPUs and lots of bells and whistles.

If you have access to the New York Times, see the
Thursday, August 24, 2000 national edition page D8
for an article entitled: "A Long-Discontinued
Macintosh Still Thrills Collectors to the Core."

Not quite classic by this mailing list standards,
but, as I said, truly CLASSIC.

Dave

P.S.  You probably want to volunteer to "retire" those
      Color Classics from work into your collection.

Larry Anderson wrote:
> 
> > Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 13:01:37 -0700
> > From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner@halcyon.com>
> > Subject: Re: old MAC's
> >
> > Some of these aren't truly "classic" yet (<10 years),
> > but it's looking like the Color Classic is really a
> > CLASSIC.  If you want to really get carried away with
> > older Macs, see about the Color Classic at
> >         http://home.hkstar.com/~patrickn/colorclassic/
> >
> > Dave
> 
> We have a couple Color Classics at work a max of 10 megs RAM and 16mghz
> speed makes it mighty slow (even with the MicroMac Accelerators)...
> 
> If you are looking for something "compact" and to "play" with the Macs I
> would look out for:
> 
> SE SuperDrive (able to use the HD disks, also can support dual drives
> and hard drive)
> SE/30 (first 68030 compact mac, some people consider thse good to have
> around for net stuff.)
> Classic II (more limited than the SE-30 but faster than other compact macs)
> IIci (the cx and si are slower, also note the IIci is the last Mac
> capable of running System 6)
> IIfx (big, fast, but uses weird RAMs)
> LC-III
> Quadra 605/LC475 (no MMU but 25mghz speed, good kids internet box)
> 631-CD (last of the 68040s, but a good one - my first Mac - at home)
> Macs in the 1000s are PowerMacs.  Note some caveats on those:
> * 61xx (uses a non-standard video connector!)
> * 7100 (uses a non-standard video connector & NEEDS a standard video
> card doe to electronic design)
> 
> Heck just check out http://www.lowendmac.com/ Low end Mac is a great
> site for tips and tidbits on the older macs.  Though some of their "Road
> Apples" are computers I like.
> --
> 01000011 01001111 01001101 01001101 01001111 01000100 01001111 01010010 01000101
>    Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS  (209) 754-1363
> 300-14.4k bps
>      Classic Commodore pages at:  http://www.jps.net/foxnhare/commodore.html
> 01000011 01001111 01001101 01010000 01010101 01010100 01000101 01010010 01010011

From richard at idcomm.com  Tue Oct 24 22:58:23 2000
From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: Mothballs and copper (was: Spiders)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010242153350.4958-100000@smarty.smart.net>
Message-ID: <003f01c03e37$d32c67c0$0100a8c0@winbook>

If you have boards/contacts that are not plated with gold or solder, or
uninsulated wiring, you should probably look into possible corrosive effects
from mothballs.  My various boxes are mainly bare or anodized aluminum and
have relatively little exposed copper.  Do you suppose gold or solder
plating are effected by mothballs?  BTW, if you put the equipment in a
plastic garbage bag without spiders or their eggs, it's unlikely any will
end up inside if you seal the bag.

If you're just trying to keep a bit of collected hardware that's unlikely
you'll ever make run anyway, since it's just a piece of a hardware
collection, that won't be of concern.

Dick

----- Original Message -----
From: R. D. Davis <rdd@smart.net>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 8:07 PM
Subject: Mothballs and copper (was: Spiders)


> On Tue, 24 Oct 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote:
> > I've found that a few mothballs in a garbage bag together with the item
in
> > question seems to eliminate the insects and therefore the spiders that
live
>
> A word of caution: a few years back, several people warned me about the
use
> of mothballs around computers and other electronic equipment.  I was told
> that if near copper (not necessarily right next to it) a chemical reaction
> can result that harms the copper (e.g. some circuit boards, etc.).  Has
> anyone here heard anything about this?
>
> --
> Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis   "In order to maximize pleasure from
money,
> All Rights Reserved              one must enjoy  minimizing, and delaying,
> rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900   the spending of it; having some Scottish
> http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd     ancestry also helps." :-)  --RDD
>
>
>
>
>


From jhellige at earthlink.net  Tue Oct 24 23:21:36 2000
From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: Classic Macs
In-Reply-To: <39F65781.4A6B62CC@halcyon.com>
References: <200010241536.KAA85702@opal.tseinc.com>
 <39F65112.F7A3372D@jps.net> <39F65781.4A6B62CC@halcyon.com>
Message-ID: <a05001900b61c0ebc8547@[63.23.230.5]>

	Even the transplant of the LC-575 mainboard into the CC 
offers quite a big speed boost since it has a 68040 running at 33mhz 
and a true 32bit data path, vice the CC's normal 16bit data path.  It 
doesn't require any modification to use the 575 board either, as it's 
a direct swap and just slides in.  The only problem is that the 
connectors no longer line up with the cutouts on the bolt-on rear 
panel and that you have to modify the analog board or the CPU board 
to run System 7.5 and above.  It'll run 7.1 as-is just fine.  The G3 
mods use a later mainboard that requires all kinds of case mods, 
including PSU mods.  All in all, a pretty cool little system, and a 
gorgeous screen.  My favorite of my compact Macs.

	Jeff

>I guess maybe you didn't follow the Web links.
>
>These guys have upgraded the Color Classic to Power
>Mac G3 CPUs and lots of bells and whistles.
>
>If you have access to the New York Times, see the
>Thursday, August 24, 2000 national edition page D8
>for an article entitled: "A Long-Discontinued
>Macintosh Still Thrills Collectors to the Core."
>
>Not quite classic by this mailing list standards,
>but, as I said, truly CLASSIC.
>
>Dave
>
>P.S.  You probably want to volunteer to "retire" those
>       Color Classics from work into your collection.
>
>Larry Anderson wrote:
>>
>>  > Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 13:01:37 -0700
>>  > From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner@halcyon.com>
>>  > Subject: Re: old MAC's
>>  >
>>  > Some of these aren't truly "classic" yet (<10 years),
>>  > but it's looking like the Color Classic is really a
>>  > CLASSIC.  If you want to really get carried away with
>>  > older Macs, see about the Color Classic at
>>  >         http://home.hkstar.com/~patrickn/colorclassic/
>>  >
>>  > Dave
>>
>>  We have a couple Color Classics at work a max of 10 megs RAM and 16mghz
>>  speed makes it mighty slow (even with the MicroMac Accelerators)...
>>
>>  If you are looking for something "compact" and to "play" with the Macs I
>>  would look out for:
>>
>>  SE SuperDrive (able to use the HD disks, also can support dual drives
>>  and hard drive)
>>  SE/30 (first 68030 compact mac, some people consider thse good to have
>>  around for net stuff.)
>>  Classic II (more limited than the SE-30 but faster than other compact macs)
>>  IIci (the cx and si are slower, also note the IIci is the last Mac
>>  capable of running System 6)
>>  IIfx (big, fast, but uses weird RAMs)
>>  LC-III
>>  Quadra 605/LC475 (no MMU but 25mghz speed, good kids internet box)
>>  631-CD (last of the 68040s, but a good one - my first Mac - at home)
>>  Macs in the 1000s are PowerMacs.  Note some caveats on those:
>>  * 61xx (uses a non-standard video connector!)
>>  * 7100 (uses a non-standard video connector & NEEDS a standard video
>>  card doe to electronic design)
>>
>>  Heck just check out http://www.lowendmac.com/ Low end Mac is a great
>>  site for tips and tidbits on the older macs.  Though some of their "Road
>>  Apples" are computers I like.
>>  --
>>  01000011 01001111 01001101 01001101 01001111 01000100 01001111 
>>01010010 01000101
>>     Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS  (209) 754-1363
>>  300-14.4k bps
>>       Classic Commodore pages at:  http://www.jps.net/foxnhare/commodore.html
>>  01000011 01001111 01001101 01010000 01010101 01010100 01000101 
>>01010010 01010011

-- 
            Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4
        Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems:
                 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757

From eric at brouhaha.com  Tue Oct 24 23:41:00 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: DEC RP06 power
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0010242220390.48946-100000@shell-3.enteract.com>
	(rws@enteract.com)
References: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0010242220390.48946-100000@shell-3.enteract.com>
Message-ID: <20001025044100.27741.qmail@brouhaha.com>

"Richard W. Schauer" <rws@enteract.com> wrote:
> I've recently acquired an RP06 as part of a PDP-11/44 system, and I wish
> to run it (why not?)  I remember reading on this list a while back, that
> it could be operated on single-phase power instead of three-phase.

Not likely.

> I got a printset along with the drive, and it's pretty unclear about
> what would use the three-phase- it's almost like the third phase is
> ignored, the 208v between the first two phases is fed to the
> transformer, and the primary is sort-of center tapped to feed the 115
> volt fans.  Is this right?  How would I go about feeding it
> single-phase if that isn't right?

Sounds like you're looking for the printset for the electronics.
The drive uses a three-phase motor.  Some people have suggested using
a capacitor-start arrangement to run it without three-phase, but I'm
very skeptical that it would work well.

From root at bony.umtec.com  Tue Oct 24 23:47:50 2000
From: root at bony.umtec.com (Daniel Seagraves)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: Well, I got the axe...
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010242344350.20321-100000@bony.umtec.com>


This is it - Just got fired from UMTech.  They're closing down the
internet operations.  I've snagged lunar-tokyo.net, all my stuff should be
moving there.

"Confuse, annoy, and DEE-STROY!" -- Jet Wolf | "Nothing Happens." -- ADVENT
"You'd be surprised what you can live through..." -- Anonymous
"...A man can pass his family and his name down through his sons, but it's
his honour that gets passed through his daughters.  He can see the best
and worst of life in his girls.  A daughter is something far too precious,
and he'll do anything to protect her."
	-- Reichsfuehrer Siegfried Koenig, _Matrose_Mond_, David Oliver



From jhellige at earthlink.net  Tue Oct 24 23:49:49 2000
From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: PET keyboard
Message-ID: <a05001901b61c156416c5@[63.23.228.191]>

Hello,

	I have a PET 2001-16N with the graphical keyboard, but it is 
missing the left uppermost keycap.  It's been missing so long, I 
don't even recall what character it is any longer!  It's the key 
located right next to the '!' key though.  Would anyone have a spare 
cap or even a spare keyboard assembly?  It is a plastic cased 2001 
with the 4.0 ROMs.

	Thanks
	Jeff
-- 
            Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4
        Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems:
                 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757

From ted at acacia.datacomm.com  Tue Oct 24 23:54:43 2000
From: ted at acacia.datacomm.com (Ted Rolle)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: [hercules-390] Well, I got the axe...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010242344350.20321-100000@bony.umtec.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0010242152320.20900-100000@acacia.datacomm.com>

How awful!  Been there -- it's not a _whole_ lot of fun.

At least we have http://www.monster.com and http://www.OperationIT.com to
push resumes...

You'll be in my thoughts...

Be sure to keep the list posted!

Ted


From whdawson at mlynk.com  Wed Oct 25 00:19:18 2000
From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: Spiders (was: Stacking computers)
In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB268@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c03e43$1ff5b060$c49e72d1@cobweb.net>


-> > Does anyone have a good solution for spiders other than having to
-> > reshuffle equipment more often than is sometimes possible and
vacuum
-> > them away?  One or two little spiders here and there don't seem to
be
-> > much of a problem, but, there are spiders here in my basement that
are
-> > about an inch of so in diameter that seem to like areas where
there's
-> > light - e.g. in rafters near lightbulbs (but some still nest in
other
-> > places), and they tend to have lots of little spiders (like
hundreds
-> > hatching per web (nest sacks are between 1/4" and 1/2 in diameter".
-> > The webbing can get so think that I once heard a ripping sound when
I
-> > pulled some circuit boards apart.  These spiders can make quite a
mess
-> > from the droppings and remains of what was caught in the webs.
->
-> Man! Those suckers are h-u-g-e!

If you think that's big check out the photo I took of Igor this June:

http://www.swtpc.com/big_spider_in_garage.jpg

He's on a door jamb, and posed for the photo. That's a hinge at the
22.25 inch mark.  He lived in my garage for a couple of years and we'd
see each other every now and then.  As far as spiders go, he lived to a
ripe old age.  I noticed sometime in August that he wasn't around
anymore.  In September, while working at my workbench, a long spider leg
suddenly fell onto the bench.  Looking up, I discovered what was left of
Igor.  He'd died in web.

Bill


From jpl15 at panix.com  Wed Oct 25 00:47:49 2000
From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: DEC RP06 power
In-Reply-To: <20001025044100.27741.qmail@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0010250114040.25390-100000@panix6.panix.com>


 Re: 3 phase power for drive motors.

  There are commercial boxes of varying complexity for this purpose,
albeit expensive.  The 'el cheapo' way is to obtain the use of a clip-on
AC ammeter, and a selection of motor-run caps. Hopefully also you can get
hold of a Variac of suitable capacity. (1 HP roughly equals 770 watts
equals about 3.5 amps at 220V [okay I said: roughly!])

  Disconnect the motor leads from the control circuits and remove the
media if possible, certainly lock the heads out of position. Think about
running the blowers first if you can.. perhaps they are single-phase.  
Anyway, protect the media. Figure out what the direction of rotation is
supposed to be!!!

  CAUTION: Don't kill yourself for the Hobby, no matter how dramatic and
noble that might seem. 220VAC line will snuff you quick, and others too
who might try and come to your aid.  If you are not expert in electrical
safety, you might want to seek someone who can help you with this.


  Attach two of the motor leads to the AC power source through a Variac
and/or a five-amp breaker or fuse, or, if nothing else, a 600-watt room
heater. Attach the third motor lead from one side of the AC line, through
the capacitor. Apply some reduced voltage, and read the current in the
three leads. Add and/or remove capacitors until the current with the motor
running is equal in all three leads. Voila! There you have it.  Be sure
the direction of rotation is correct, if not, swap any two motor leads. 
 
  Starting: MOst lightly loaded constant speed applications should start
up normally. If not, place a second capacitor of about twice the value of
the first, in parallel with the existing one, and place a switch in series
with it. Use a big pushbutton that will carry the load, if possible. Then,
when starting up, operate the switch to add enough capacitance to get the
motor up to speed and then Disconnect It.. else you will toast your motor,
and that would not be a good thing.

  I hesitate to include an ASCII line drawing, but I will be happy to
correspond off-list with anyone who wishes more info, clarification,
drawings, etc.  It's easier than it sounds... just moderately dangerous
until you get the proper cap value settled on.  For 220V 1/2 horse motors,
run caps might be in the 100-300uF range, 440/660VAC motor run caps, but
you need to select the one that matches the motor's characteristics. Find
surplus/used caps...  if you have to buy a bunch new, it might
be...  shocking.


   {sorry.....}


  I have run several 3ph motors succesfully using this method, one (in the
case of a milling machine at a former employer) for many years with no ill
effects at all. The clip-on ammeter is the key... get the currents equal
in the windings and you (and the motor) are happy.

  Cheers

  John

 Who lives in India where it's all 3ph 220v 50Htz...  most of the time. :)


From univac2 at earthlink.net  Wed Oct 25 01:00:02 2000
From: univac2 at earthlink.net (Owen Robertson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: stuff avail
References: <39F5A82D.17B7BFA9@arrl.net>
Message-ID: <001c01c03e48$d8f869e0$9a8e1b3f@hkyxztrz>

I am mainly interested in the Vaxstation 2000, and the Vaxstation 3100/m38.
Could you give me your phone number, and a good time to call? It would be
better for me to meet you at your house sometime next week, if that's OK
with you.

Thanks,
Owen


From pete at dunnington.u-net.com  Tue Oct 24 19:28:30 2000
From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: Mac TCP/IP networking (was Re: old MAC's)
In-Reply-To: "Eric J. Korpela" <korpela@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu>
        "Mac TCP/IP networking (was Re: old MAC's)" (Oct 24,  8:36)
References: <200010241536.IAA07613@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <10010250128.ZM6953@indy.dunnington.u-net.com>

On Oct 24,  8:36, Eric J. Korpela wrote:

> I'm also looking for info about how to gateway between TCP/IP over
AppleTalk
> and TCP/IP over ethernet.  I've got a stand alone AppleTalk<>Ethernet
box,
> but it appears only to transport the LocalTalk protocol without
transforming
> IP into the proper format.

Some flavour of Cayman GatorBox, perhaps?  I have a GatorBox CS (you can
still get software updates from Cayman's FTP site), and although I've never
tried this, it is supposed to be able to allow Unix machines (or other
machines that talk TCP/IP) to print to Laserwriters on the Localtalk bus.
 We used to have two at work which allowed Mac users to use our Unix
printers and Unix/NFS filestore (which suggests it does translate properly
in both directions).  They also allowed our Macs to talk to others on the
campus, which involved going through at least two IP routers and the ATM
network as well as the two ethernet segments and GatorBoxes, though I think
that used some sort of tunnelling mechanism.  And of course all the Macs,
PCs, and Unix machiners could ping and telnet to each other, though I'm not
sure how much of that involved the GatorBoxes and how much was done by
software in the Macs.

We no longer have/use the GatorBoxes at work, though two other Departments
still do, I believe.  Our Mac users use Dave to talk to the print servers
and file servers.  I don't know much about it, but I think it's a sort of
Samba client -- doubtless some of the Mac users on the list know much more
than I.

-- 

Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Dept. of Computer Science
						University of York

From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Wed Oct 25 02:30:31 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: Spiders (was: Stacking computers)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010242209570.4958-100000@smarty.smart.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010241349120.24268-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <l03102800b61c39a13c21@[192.168.1.4]>

Normally I am very nice to spiders, and even have my wife and son trained
to leave the daddy long legs alone in the house, since they tend to eat all
the other spiders etc. that get in. This live and let live attitude extends
to our yard, where we had a pretty (pretty big too) shiny green orb weaver.
Each morning he would be sitting in the middle of big circular web between
a bush and tree beside the driveway.

Unfortunately one morning that web was between the tree and the door of my
car. That isn't what got him squished though. I was carefully detaching the
web, and said pretty large green spider zipped down a strand and
disappeared under the door handle of my car. The thing is, I BARELY noticed
him going there, and that set off major spider paranoia. I fished him out
and smushed him with a stick, and I am still touchy about putting my
fingers under door handles.

Our cat "pretzel" has pretty much eaten every spider in the house now that
she has mastered leaping to all points. She is the skinniest cat, and walks
the top of curtain rods seeking tasty morsels without any fear.



From sambfam at optonline.net  Wed Oct 25 08:32:24 2000
From: sambfam at optonline.net (Robert M. Sambolin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: Everything about Apple ///
Message-ID: <39F6E0E8.ABF0B6C4@optonline.net>

Update by Robert Sambolin
Sorry for not posting the Washington Apple Pi information. I did not
have the telephone, address or webpage address on hand when I posted my
response.
Here are the details:
WASHINGTON APPLE PIE
<www.wap.org>
12022 PARKLAWN DRIVE
ROCKVILLE,MD 20852
(301)984-0300


From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net  Wed Oct 25 08:22:27 2000
From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (Sue & Francois)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: PET keyboard
References: <a05001901b61c156416c5@[63.23.228.191]>
Message-ID: <001301c03e86$9efd15e0$0264640a@mediaone.net>

Now which keyboard did that one have? is it the chicklet type or the full
size keyboard?

Francois

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Hellige" <jhellige@earthlink.net>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 9:49 PM
Subject: PET keyboard


> Hello,
>
> I have a PET 2001-16N with the graphical keyboard, but it is
> missing the left uppermost keycap.  It's been missing so long, I
> don't even recall what character it is any longer!  It's the key
> located right next to the '!' key though.  Would anyone have a spare
> cap or even a spare keyboard assembly?  It is a plastic cased 2001
> with the 4.0 ROMs.
>
> Thanks
> Jeff
> --
>             Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4
>         Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems:
>                  http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757


From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org  Wed Oct 25 07:19:02 2000
From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: DEC RP06 power
In-Reply-To: <20001025044100.27741.qmail@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "Oct
 25, 2000 04:41:00 am"
Message-ID: <200010251219.e9PCJ2F05468@bg-tc-ppp1176.monmouth.com>

> "Richard W. Schauer" <rws@enteract.com> wrote:
> > I've recently acquired an RP06 as part of a PDP-11/44 system, and I wish
> > to run it (why not?)  I remember reading on this list a while back, that
> > it could be operated on single-phase power instead of three-phase.
> 
> Not likely.

Actually it doesn't use the three phases... just the first two.
The third is routed out to allow daisy chaining two drives together 
with power being routed out of the drive with the phases swapped
for load equalization.
> 
> > I got a printset along with the drive, and it's pretty unclear about
> > what would use the three-phase- it's almost like the third phase is
> > ignored, the 208v between the first two phases is fed to the
> > transformer, and the primary is sort-of center tapped to feed the 115
> > volt fans.  Is this right?  How would I go about feeding it
> > single-phase if that isn't right?
> 
> Sounds like you're looking for the printset for the electronics.
> The drive uses a three-phase motor.  Some people have suggested using
> a capacitor-start arrangement to run it without three-phase, but I'm
> very skeptical that it would work well.
> 

Nope... THE RP04 is three phase motor RP04-II (renamed RP05) and RP06
do not use a three phase motor... they use two phases.

The prints (and DEC RP06 training) do not lie.

Bill
-- 
bpechter@monmouth.com    | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10  
                         | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2
                         | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour 

From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org  Wed Oct 25 07:22:45 2000
From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: Mac TCP/IP networking (was Re: old MAC's)
In-Reply-To: <10010250128.ZM6953@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from Pete Turnbull
 at "Oct 25, 2000 00:28:30 am"
Message-ID: <200010251222.e9PCMjV05513@bg-tc-ppp1176.monmouth.com>

> On Oct 24,  8:36, Eric J. Korpela wrote:
> 
> > I'm also looking for info about how to gateway between TCP/IP over
> AppleTalk
> > and TCP/IP over ethernet.  I've got a stand alone AppleTalk<>Ethernet
> box,
> > but it appears only to transport the LocalTalk protocol without
> transforming
> > IP into the proper format.

I believe a Linux box with the proper AppleTalk card may work...

I know Netatalk and CAP seem to work well with Ethertalk -- but I've
never had a PC box with the Appletalk hardware board to try.


Bill
-- 
bpechter@monmouth.com    | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10  
                         | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2
                         | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour 

From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Wed Oct 25 10:03:26 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: Well, I got the axe...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010242344350.20321-100000@bony.umtec.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001025100326.350f8e4c@mailhost.intellistar.net>

  Sorry to hear that Dan. Best wishes for a happly landing.

    Joe

At 11:47 PM 10/24/00 -0500, you wrote:
>
>This is it - Just got fired from UMTech.  They're closing down the
>internet operations.  I've snagged lunar-tokyo.net, all my stuff should be
>moving there.
>
>"Confuse, annoy, and DEE-STROY!" -- Jet Wolf | "Nothing Happens." -- ADVENT
>"You'd be surprised what you can live through..." -- Anonymous
>"...A man can pass his family and his name down through his sons, but it's
>his honour that gets passed through his daughters.  He can see the best
>and worst of life in his girls.  A daughter is something far too precious,
>and he'll do anything to protect her."
>	-- Reichsfuehrer Siegfried Koenig, _Matrose_Mond_, David Oliver
>
>
>


From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Wed Oct 25 09:46:40 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: old MAC's
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB27B@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>


> >Speaking of PB's, I might be inheriting an '040 520c soon. 8.1 does run
> >on the 040, yes? Does anyone have personal experience (not "Apple claims
> >it does")?
> 
> Like the LC475, my 520c has the 68LC040 processor, not the full 68040 - I 
> assume your situation is the same. If I'm wrong, we can set about 
> installing BSD. Linux will also run on this machine, but from what I read,

> the FPU emulation is not reliable yet.

Some of the LC models (e.g. the Quadra 605) have an expansion slot
into which you can put either a NIC or a FPU card.

I have a couple of the FPU cards, although I may not still have
the docs. I'd be willing to part with them for US$20 each.

Regards,
-dq
 

From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Wed Oct 25 09:47:32 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: Spiders (was: Stacking computers)
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB27C@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>

> > Anybody having trouble with fungal growth?
> 
> Yeah, but I don't think anyone wants to hear about my 
> particular fungal growth ;)

ROFL!

From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Wed Oct 25 09:39:51 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #407
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB27A@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>


> Hello. I'm new in the list. I write from 
> Spain; my name is Sergio. I have one question 
> to somebody that can answer it: Can it be 
> possible to obtain some sort of info about 
> "Compatible Time-Sharing System (CTSS)" from 
> the M.I.T ? I'm interested to do one IBM 7094 
> emulator and I should like to made on it the 
> modification that was made in the machine 
> that rans the CTSS. I think that there was 
> some manuals from MIT press ans internals. 
> I suppose that can be possible to obtain 
> it paying. I should like to hear something 
> about this.

A guy named Roger Roach who is or was at MIT 
supposedly has magtapes containing the CTSS
documentation. If he does still have them,
I doubt he would release them from his possession,
and I don't think he personally has the time 
to try to recover the contents.

He might permit a researcher access to the
tapes at a facility local to MIT or wherever
he now happens to be.

I do not know Roger; I got this information
from a third party.

> Same thing is applicable to Multics question. 
> Somebody is doing a Honeywell 635/645 emulator 
> like I could confirm one week ago; in this way, 
> a primitive version of Multics may be sufficient, 
> I think.

Most of Multics is written in PL/I; unfortunately, 
PL/I compilers are hard to come by.

> In both cases we think in Java like the platform 
> to do the work. In my particular case I want to 
> do some other emulators (Univac I, IBM 701, 
> IBM 1401 and IBM 650) because I have some info 
> about them (opcodes, etc). There is only a 
> question about the Univac I that nobody resolvs: 
> Can it be possible to obtain a detailed diagram 
> from the Main Console of the Univac I ?

I, too, have had Java recommended to me as a language
for implementing emulators. I have concerns about its
performance.

-dq

From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Wed Oct 25 09:49:55 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: Mac TCP/IP networking
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB27D@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>


> There are at least two products that will perform TCP/IP 
> "encapsulation"
> into Appletalk using a Mac:
> 
> 1. A current product called IPNetRouter. See:
> http://www.sustworks.com/site/ipr_guide/localtalk.html
> It will run on all current Macs.
> 
> 2. An old Apple product called "Apple IP Gateway". See:
> http://til.info.apple.com/techinfo.nsf/artnum/n16705
> This product will not run on PCI Macs or on Macs running 
> "Open Transport".

Another product is Vicom Internet Gateway... it's been
split into two products now, one carrying the same name
includes the ability to block access to specific web sites
and has CyberNot filter capability.

A more stripped-down version is called SoftRouter. Both
products allow you to multi-home the Mac, and it then
routes Localtalk to TCP/IP and vice-versa.

Nice product; we use it on a Mac to connect our entire
office to the Internet over a measly V.90 link.

-dq

From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu  Wed Oct 25 10:24:46 2000
From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: Mac TCP/IP networking (was Re: old MAC's)
In-Reply-To: <10010250128.ZM6953@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from Pete Turnbull at "Oct 25, 0 00:28:30 am"
Message-ID: <200010251524.IAA31308@stockholm.ptloma.edu>

> We no longer have/use the GatorBoxes at work, though two other Departments
> still do, I believe.  Our Mac users use Dave to talk to the print servers
> and file servers.  I don't know much about it, but I think it's a sort of
> Samba client -- doubtless some of the Mac users on the list know much more
> than I.

I use Dave to talk to the NT server in my office (for some reason, the
University does not want me to put an AppleTalk stack on the NT box, which
would be simpler, but whatever). It works very well as an SMB client. The
problem is the price, which is about $150, but you can download an eval
version. Really, it's quite nice. www.thursby.com

-- 
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
 Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- I like being single. I'm always there when I need me. -- Art Leo -----------

From korpela at albert.ssl.berkeley.edu  Wed Oct 25 10:47:00 2000
From: korpela at albert.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: Mac TCP/IP networking (was Re: old MAC's)
In-Reply-To: <10010250128.ZM6953@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from Pete Turnbull
 at "Oct 25, 2000 00:28:30 am"
Message-ID: <200010251547.IAA02602@sagan.ssl.berkeley.edu>

> > I'm also looking for info about how to gateway between TCP/IP over
> AppleTalk
> > and TCP/IP over ethernet.  I've got a stand alone AppleTalk<>Ethernet
> box,
> > but it appears only to transport the LocalTalk protocol without
> transforming
> > IP into the proper format.
> 
> Some flavour of Cayman GatorBox, perhaps?

A Compatible Systems EtherWrite.  (Compatible systems has been taken over
by Cisco).  I think I have a FastPath box around here somewhere, but haven't
been able to find the software anywhere, not that I've looked all that hard
yet.

Eric


From jrasite at eoni.com  Wed Oct 25 11:16:09 2000
From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: Mac TCP/IP networking
References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB27D@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>
Message-ID: <39F7073F.86F41A51@eoni.com>

However, be forewarned that ViacomSoft apparently knows nothing about
Appletalk Bridge software.  I have an extremely small network
consisting of my PowerComputing clone and my wife's Quadra 650.  We
also have three different Appletalk printers. (PLW NT, HP Deskjet and
Color Stylewriter)  I have to use the Bridge software to communicate
with the printers.  I use ethernet and a x-over cable to connect the
Macs.  SurfDoubler would not allow access to the printers.  Their tech
support had no experience with it.

After a month of trying to make it work, I tried Sustainable's
IPNetRouter.  Plug and play.  Well worth the additional $50 if only
for the lack of agravation factor.  ViacomSoft's final answer was, "
If you figure it out, let us know."  I figured it out.  The answer was
to drop the ViacomSoft product and replace it with IPNetRouter. 

Told 'em what the fix was too!  If you do not have to have a mixed
network, ViacomSoft's product will probably work just fine.  It just
wouldn't work for me.

Jim Arnott

Douglas Quebbeman wrote:

> Another product is Vicom Internet Gateway... it's been
> split into two products now, one carrying the same name
> includes the ability to block access to specific web sites
> and has CyberNot filter capability.
> 
> A more stripped-down version is called SoftRouter. Both
> products allow you to multi-home the Mac, and it then
> routes Localtalk to TCP/IP and vice-versa.
> 
> Nice product; we use it on a Mac to connect our entire
> office to the Internet over a measly V.90 link.
> 
> -dq

From jbmcb at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 25 11:16:27 2000
From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: New finds & the Woz!
Message-ID: <OE58apzhad2VqKwRPQI000003e0@hotmail.com>

Picked up an Intel brand Pentium 100, runs OS/2 nicely. Also found a DEC MicroVax II with 2 4-line serial controllers. No drives, but I have a few spares. Time to froray into VMS. 

Last Sunday I went to see the Woz speak at the Mac Group of Detroit. Fascinating speaker, if anyone has the chance to see him I highly reccomend it. He talked in-depth about working at TI, designing Breakout with Steve Jobs for Atari, and designing his own computers at the Homebrew Computer Club. Most fascinating factoid: He was inspired to make his first TV-display terminal when he paid a visit to Captain Crunch and saw that he had a Teletype in his apartment, and was "Talking to some guys in Boston!" over Arpanet.
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From SPEDRAJA at mail.ono.es  Wed Oct 25 11:46:20 2000
From: SPEDRAJA at mail.ono.es (Sergio Pedraja Cabo)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: Multics and CTSS
In-Reply-To: <200010251547.KAA07136@opal.tseinc.com>
Message-ID: <NEBBIBDKIMIOHBDBOBCIAEAICCAA.SPEDRAJA@mail.ono.es>


> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 10:39:51 -0400
> From: Douglas Quebbeman <dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com>
> Subject: RE: classiccmp-digest V1 #407

Hello, Douglas:

> A guy named Roger Roach who is or was at MIT 
> supposedly has magtapes containing the CTSS
> d ocumentation. If he does still have them,
> I doubt he would release them from his possession,
> and I don't think he personally has the time 
> to try to recover the contents.

:-(

> He might permit a researcher access to the
> tapes at a facility local to MIT or wherever
> he now happens to be.

Maybe in my next vacations. :->
No, seriously, maybe a goal that this tapes could be 
translated to Pc Format like Paul Pierce made with 
IBSYS and PR150, two OS's for the 709 (if I remember 
good...).

> I do not know Roger; I got this information
> from a third party.

Well, if would be possible to contact via this 
third party...

> Most of Multics is written in PL/I; unfortunately, 
> PL/I compilers are hard to come by.

I have two PC PL/1 compilers and some other from 
CP/M and know somwthing of the language. I am 
waiting one book from IBM that I suppose will 
complete my stuff to begin.

> I, too, have had Java recommended to me as a language
> for implementing emulators. I have concerns about its
> performance.

I needed to work with Java from two months from now to 
develop one financial application to my job. It offers 
all what I need to develop this emulators but specially 
to simulate a time-sharing system.

Teorically all the papers about Multics that have now 
maybe sufficient to simulate something like the 
pagination mechanism. and the virtual memory. The 
specifications about the first Multics let me do 
a virtual disk from 4 Millions of words of 36 bits.
There is an study about the modules that compounds 
the kernel and the recommendations to reduce its size. 
I have some source code in PL/1 of some Multics utilities 
and a list of 314 commands like appears in 
http://www.multicians.org/multics-commands.html ...

I only needs the messages of the commands to simulate them 
but logically I should agree the source code :-) And, in 
other way, the mechanism of console or terminal session 
that Multics used. That's all for now. I prefers at this 
instance to made an hipotetical machine that runs the 
System before than a real General Electric 635/645. Even 
I'm not interested by now in the security mechanism that 
were developed later.

Well, that's all for now. Thanks for your kindly answer, 
Douglas. Greetings from Spain.

----------
Sergio Pedraja
Administracion de Sistemas
Division de Tecnologia
Caja Cantabria
Spain
----------
mailto: spedraja@mail.ono.es, spedraja@casyc.es
----------





From jhellige at earthlink.net  Wed Oct 25 11:39:55 2000
From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: PET keyboard
In-Reply-To: <001301c03e86$9efd15e0$0264640a@mediaone.net>
References: <a05001901b61c156416c5@[63.23.228.191]>
 <001301c03e86$9efd15e0$0264640a@mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <a05001900b61cbc8191ab@[63.23.228.191]>

	It's the full-sized keyboard.  If I remember correctly, the 
chicklet keyboard only came on the 4k and 8k PETs.  In fact, this is 
a later 2001 series machine, as it has the plastic case top and 
version 4.0 ROMs.  I even have the 4116 DRAM chips and sockets needed 
to upgrade the machine to 32k but have never gotten around to doing 
it.

	Jeff

>Now which keyboard did that one have? is it the chicklet type or the full
>size keyboard?
>
>Francois
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Jeff Hellige" <jhellige@earthlink.net>
>To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 9:49 PM
>Subject: PET keyboard
>
>
>>  Hello,
>>
>>  I have a PET 2001-16N with the graphical keyboard, but it is
>>  missing the left uppermost keycap.  It's been missing so long, I
>>  don't even recall what character it is any longer!  It's the key
>>  located right next to the '!' key though.  Would anyone have a spare
>>  cap or even a spare keyboard assembly?  It is a plastic cased 2001
>  > with the 4.0 ROMs.
-- 
            Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4
        Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems:
                 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757

From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Wed Oct 25 12:49:09 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: Mac TCP/IP networking (was Re: old MAC's)
In-Reply-To: <200010251547.IAA02602@sagan.ssl.berkeley.edu>
References: <10010250128.ZM6953@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from Pete
 Turnbull at "Oct 25, 2000 00:28:30 am"
Message-ID: <l03102801b61ccd88f736@[192.168.1.4]>

>by Cisco).  I think I have a FastPath box around here somewhere, but haven't
>been able to find the software anywhere, not that I've looked all that hard

www.shiva.com



From mmcfadden at cmh.edu  Wed Oct 25 12:41:39 2000
From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: Spiders (was: Stacking computers)(long)
Message-ID: <E7AC96207335D411B1E7009027FC284906BD33@EXCHANGE2>

If you want to know more about spiders, I actually took several entomology
classes at the University of Kansas.  I know some weird information about
fleas, chiggers, spiders, pore mites, and other small insects.  We used to
hunt spiders, not to kill them but to observe them, at night, our professor
would buy the first pitcher of beer after we were all done.  You could buy
3.2 beer at age 18 in Kansas in 1971.  

The brown recluse spider injects a cytotoxic saliva when it bites.  The
saliva actually breaks down the cell wall, i.e. cytotoxic, liquefies the
cell contents and then the spider is able to "slurp" up the contents.  Some
people are highly allergic, then can end up with scars the size of 50 cent
pieces when the site heals.  Bites on faces and exposed body parts are a
problem.  They like to feed on dust mites under furniture.  I heard a
story/rumor that one of the football coaches at KU had a large scar on his
butt from a brown recluse bite.  

Reference on spiders
http://www.ag.ohio-state.edu/~ohioline/hyg-fact/2000/2060.html

Off topic, The chigger injects an anticoagulant when it bites, which has the
same effect, and also itches.  Otherwise their proboscis, "stinger" would
clog up with clotted blood.  
University of North Carolina reference to residental pests
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/ent/notes/Urban/house.htm

Reference of pesticides and pest control
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/ent/notes/Urban/pests.htm

Pore mites are the tiny bugs that live on the sebacous secretions and skin
flakes on your skin.  Mostly they live in skin pores.  Our professor used to
take a scraping from the skin on a student and show them what was living on
them.  He theorized that people with clear skin actually had more pore mites
that kept the skin's pores unclogged.  I doubt if anybody wants a skin cream
with live pore mites.
Mite reference http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/ent/notes/Urban/mites/mites.htm

I actually learned something in college.
Mike
mmcfadden@cmh.edu


From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Wed Oct 25 13:04:37 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: Mac TCP/IP networking
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB282@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>

> However, be forewarned that ViacomSoft apparently knows nothing about
> Appletalk Bridge software.  I have an extremely small network
> consisting of my PowerComputing clone and my wife's Quadra 650.  We
> also have three different Appletalk printers. (PLW NT, HP Deskjet and
> Color Stylewriter)  I have to use the Bridge software to communicate
> with the printers.  I use ethernet and a x-over cable to connect the
> Macs.  SurfDoubler would not allow access to the printers.  Their tech
> support had no experience with it.

While I suspect that they share some code, from the description on the
web site, SurfDoubler isn't the same as SoftRouter. I may have to
experiment a bit here...
 
> After a month of trying to make it work, I tried Sustainable's
> IPNetRouter.  Plug and play.  Well worth the additional $50 if only
> for the lack of agravation factor.  ViacomSoft's final answer was, "
> If you figure it out, let us know."  I figured it out.  The answer was
> to drop the ViacomSoft product and replace it with IPNetRouter. 
> 
> Told 'em what the fix was too!  If you do not have to have a mixed
> network, ViacomSoft's product will probably work just fine.  It just
> wouldn't work for me.

Well, I have one printer that's localtalk-only, so I have something
to test with. I do also have a Shiva box that allows sharing a single
localtalk peripheral amongst a localtalk workgroup, but I've never
messed with it.

-dq

From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net  Wed Oct 25 13:08:28 2000
From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (FBA)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: PET keyboard
Message-ID: <003401c03eae$9a5fdfe0$c834d986@wkchafauradon.beckman.com>

Sorry I can't help the one I have is a chicklet type. I actually had it for
about two years before I found out it was a PET keyboard.
By the way any one has a logic board, case, cassette tape, CRT and what not
for a 4 or 8k PET that they would be willing to part with? I'll pay shipping
;)
Francois

-

> It's the full-sized keyboard.  If I remember correctly, the
>chicklet keyboard only came on the 4k and 8k PETs.  In fact, this is
>a later 2001 series machine, as it has the plastic case top and
>version 4.0 ROMs.  I even have the 4116 DRAM chips and sockets needed
>to upgrade the machine to 32k but have never gotten around to doing
>it.
>
> Jeff
>
>>Now which keyboard did that one have? is it the chicklet type or the full
>>size keyboard?
>>
>>Francois
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Jeff Hellige" <jhellige@earthlink.net>
>>To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
>>Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 9:49 PM
>>Subject: PET keyboard
>>
>>
>>>  Hello,
>>>
>>>  I have a PET 2001-16N with the graphical keyboard, but it is
>>>  missing the left uppermost keycap.  It's been missing so long, I
>>>  don't even recall what character it is any longer!  It's the key
>>>  located right next to the '!' key though.  Would anyone have a spare
>>>  cap or even a spare keyboard assembly?  It is a plastic cased 2001
>>  > with the 4.0 ROMs.
>--
>            Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4
>        Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems:
>                 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757


From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Wed Oct 25 14:37:40 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: OT: Computer Humor.....
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001025143740.3f174722@mailhost.intellistar.net>

   This is OT but I thought everyone would get a kick out of it.

    Joe

>Subject: Computer Humor.....
>
>Subject: Computer humor with a 
>     twist...maybe a slant...
>
>Jesus and Satan were having an 
>ongoing argument about who was better on
>his computer.
> 
>They had been going at it for days, and God was
>tired of hearing of the bickering. Finally God said,
>"Cool it. I am going to set up a test that will run
>two hours and I will judge who does the better job."
>     
>So down Satan and Jesus sat at the keyboards and 
>typed away.
>They moused. 
>They did spreadsheets.
>They wrote reports.
>They sent e-mail.
>They sent out e-mail with attachments.
>They downloaded.
>They did some genealogy reports.
>They made cards.
>They did every known job.
>
>About ten minutes before their time was up,
>lightning flashed across the sky, thunder rolled,
>the rain poured, and, of course, the electricity
>went off.
>
>Satan stared at his blank screen and screamed
>every curse word known in the underworld.
>
>Jesus just sighed.
>The electricity finally flickered back on, and each of them 
>rebooted their computers. Satan started searching frantically,
>screaming, "It's gone! It's all gone! 
>I lost everything when the power went out!"
>
>Meanwhile, Jesus quietly started printing out all
>of his files from the past two hours.
>
>Satan observed this and became very irate: 
>"Wait! He must have cheated. How did he do that?"
>
>God shrugged and said, "Jesus saves...."
>    
>( Dats 'cuz da devil made me do it ! )
>
>Attachment Converted: "C:\ATTACH\Compute1.htm"
>


From jhellige at earthlink.net  Wed Oct 25 14:40:12 2000
From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: IBM P70
Message-ID: <a05001900b61ce41fe3ed@[63.23.231.110]>

	I found a rather interesting machine today at a local thrift 
store.  It is an IBM PS/2 Model P70.  Normally I don't pick up IBM 
PC's or clones, but this has the following:

	- luggable, roughly the size of a large breifcase
	- 80386 running at 20mhz
	- red gas-plasma VGA display
	- one 16-bit MCA and one 32-bit MCA expansion slot
	- 120meg IBM ESDI hard disk
	- 4meg RAM
	- parallel, serial, PS/2 mouse, VGA, and unknown HDI-30 
connector on the rear.

	Unfortunately, it lacks it's keyboard, which isn't connected 
by way of the standard PS/2 connector.  It won't boot past the memory 
test due to the lack of keyboard and it gives me POST error codes of 
301, 162 and 163 on the screen, as well as beeps twice.  Does anyone 
know what the square 30pin connector on the rear panel is?  It 
reminds me of the HDI-30 SCSI connector found on some Powerbooks.

	I picked it up because I thought a portable Microchannel 
machine with a gas-plasma VGA screen was pretty interesting.  Not to 
mention it's the only MCA machine I have.

	Jeff
-- 
            Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4
        Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems:
                 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757

From jbmcb at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 25 14:59:41 2000
From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: IBM P70
References: <a05001900b61ce41fe3ed@[63.23.231.110]>
Message-ID: <OE71BqRKP8W3mqdlyWA00000571@hotmail.com>

That's a fun machine! I Belive the square doohickey in the back is either
for an external monitor, it plugs into another converter thingy to get it to
standard VGA. It's got an ESDI hard drive, I belive, and has two MCA
expansion slots. You'll have to scrounge for a keyboard, I don't think it's
a standard PS/2 connector. The red gas-plasma display is supercool, it has
that wargames feel going on..

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Hellige" <jhellige@earthlink.net>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 3:40 PM
Subject: IBM P70


> I found a rather interesting machine today at a local thrift
> store.  It is an IBM PS/2 Model P70.  Normally I don't pick up IBM
> PC's or clones, but this has the following:
>
> - luggable, roughly the size of a large breifcase
> - 80386 running at 20mhz
> - red gas-plasma VGA display
> - one 16-bit MCA and one 32-bit MCA expansion slot
> - 120meg IBM ESDI hard disk
> - 4meg RAM
> - parallel, serial, PS/2 mouse, VGA, and unknown HDI-30
> connector on the rear.
>
> Unfortunately, it lacks it's keyboard, which isn't connected
> by way of the standard PS/2 connector.  It won't boot past the memory
> test due to the lack of keyboard and it gives me POST error codes of
> 301, 162 and 163 on the screen, as well as beeps twice.  Does anyone
> know what the square 30pin connector on the rear panel is?  It
> reminds me of the HDI-30 SCSI connector found on some Powerbooks.
>
> I picked it up because I thought a portable Microchannel
> machine with a gas-plasma VGA screen was pretty interesting.  Not to
> mention it's the only MCA machine I have.
>
> Jeff
> --
>             Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4
>         Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems:
>                  http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757
>

From Fritz_Chwolka at t-online.de  Wed Oct 25 15:20:23 2000
From: Fritz_Chwolka at t-online.de (Fritz Chwolka)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: vaxstation II - howw to start
Message-ID: <13oWxE-26ZksiC@fwd02.sul.t-online.com>

Hi...

now I cleaned the vaxstation II/GPX and  I want to make it a runable system. I own no monitor but on the 
powerconnectorside there are a lot of dsub connectors and switsches and a onedigitdisplay.
Can someone explain them and the 

If I fire the vaxstation on the systemdisplay shows an A and then seemd to wait. Nothing goes on and no 
harddisk is aktive. The light on the powerswistchside are in ready mode.

So bonnecting a serial cable to the CPU  status connector diesn't work nd it seemd as I must make a 
DEC-like cable for it.

Thanks for help.
 



Greetings from

Fritz Chwolka  - Duisburg
/ collecting old computers just for fun at   www.alterechner.de \


From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 25 15:29:17 2000
From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: old MAC's
Message-ID: <20001025202917.15743.qmail@web9501.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Douglas Quebbeman <dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com> wrote:
> Some of the LC models (e.g. the Quadra 605) have an expansion slot
> into which you can put either a NIC or a FPU card.

Got a NIC there.
 
> I have a couple of the FPU cards, although I may not still have
> the docs. I'd be willing to part with them for US$20 each.

Would this just be something like a 68882 on a small card?

-ethan


=====
Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to
vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com

The original webpage address is still going away.  The 
permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/

See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf!  It's FREE.
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From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 25 15:31:00 2000
From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: Mac TCP/IP networking (was Re: old MAC's)
Message-ID: <20001025203100.69244.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Bill Pechter <pechter@pechter.dyndns.org> wrote:
> > On Oct 24,  8:36, Eric J. Korpela wrote:
> I believe a Linux box with the proper AppleTalk card may work...

In theory.
 
> I know Netatalk and CAP seem to work well with Ethertalk -- but I've
> never had a PC box with the Appletalk hardware board to try.

I've had great luck with Netatalk (except for having to reboot the Linux
box all the time when making network changes).  When it's running, it
runs well.

I happen to have this ancient Appletalk card - DB9 connector and all.  I
remember researching it a couple of years ago and there was some interest
in Linux drivers.  Never did hear what happened to it.

-ethan


=====
Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to
vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com

The original webpage address is still going away.  The 
permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/

See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf!  It's FREE.
http://im.yahoo.com/

From sean at techcare.com  Wed Oct 25 15:33:39 2000
From: sean at techcare.com (Sean Caron)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: vaxstation II - howw to start
References: <13oWxE-26ZksiC@fwd02.sul.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <029301c03ec2$dc0b00a0$0c00000a@techcare.com>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Fritz Chwolka" <Fritz_Chwolka@t-online.de>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 4:20 PM
Subject: vaxstation II - howw to start


> Hi...
>
> now I cleaned the vaxstation II/GPX and  I want to make it a runable
system. I own no monitor but on the
> powerconnectorside there are a lot of dsub connectors and switsches and a
onedigitdisplay.
> Can someone explain them and the
>
> If I fire the vaxstation on the systemdisplay shows an A and then seemd to
wait. Nothing goes on and no
> harddisk is aktive. The light on the powerswistchside are in ready mode.
>
> So bonnecting a serial cable to the CPU  status connector diesn't work nd
it seemd as I must make a
> DEC-like cable for it.
>
> Thanks for help.
>
>
>
>
> Greetings from
>
> Fritz Chwolka  - Duisburg
> / collecting old computers just for fun at   www.alterechner.de \
>
>

You need to beg, borrow, or steal (or make :) a special serial cable, DEC
p/n BCC08. This
is actually pretty straightforward, and you can find the directions for
doing so all over the
place. I'd suggest checking http://vaxarchive.org (which has a ton of
VAX-related information
anyway).

I can't remember the DEC diagnostic codes for the life of me :) Then again,
they've got
those on http://vaxarchive.org too :)

--Sean Caron (root@diablonet.net) | http://www.diablonet.net


From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 25 15:37:13 2000
From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: Mac TCP/IP networking
Message-ID: <20001025203713.45862.qmail@web9505.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Mike Ford <mikeford@socal.rr.com> wrote:
> If you want TCP/IP and want to support IIgs as well as mac, the only
> solution I know of is the FastPath 4 made first by Kinetics, then Shiva.
> The downside is that these boxes are not trivial to figure out how to setup
> (then again they to a LOT of tricks). I have a dozen or so of them, with
> one waiting to ship just as soon as I figure out the setup just a little
> better. (I found a manual last week, which should help). The upside is that
> nobody knows about them and they sell pretty cheap (around $25 to $50
> used), and they do stuff you wouldn't even guess at like Ip tunneling. The
> Fastpath 5 is newer etc., but the 4 seems from what I have read to be more
> friendly to Apple II clients.

I have a Fastpath 4.  I think we may have spoken of it in the past.  I still
have no docs and think I might need a ROM upgrade.  Are there any web resources
out there for these?

Thanks,

-ethan


=====
Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to
vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com

The original webpage address is still going away.  The 
permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/

See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf!  It's FREE.
http://im.yahoo.com/

From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 25 15:38:15 2000
From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: Mac TCP/IP networking
Message-ID: <20001025203815.3372.qmail@web9502.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Sean Caron <sean@techcare.com> wrote:
> There was also a slick little series of devices made by Cayman called the
> GatorBox. They would bridge pretty much any protocol (TCP/IP, Appletalk,
> and even DECnet) over LocalTalk to Ethernet and back.

I helped the science technician at Scott Base with one a few years ago.
Slick little boxes.  Wish I had one.

-ethan


=====
Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to
vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com

The original webpage address is still going away.  The 
permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/

See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf!  It's FREE.
http://im.yahoo.com/

From mrbill at mrbill.net  Wed Oct 25 15:44:03 2000
From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: IBM P70
In-Reply-To: <OE71BqRKP8W3mqdlyWA00000571@hotmail.com>; from jbmcb@hotmail.com on Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 03:59:41PM -0400
References: <a05001900b61ce41fe3ed@[63.23.231.110]> <OE71BqRKP8W3mqdlyWA00000571@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20001025154403.Q18115@mrbill.net>

I've got two of these free for pickup here in Austin - when I got them
, one worked fine but had a bad HD, and one wouldnt power up at all - I
went to try to swap the HDs (and took out the modem card while I was at
it); now neither unit will power up.  Both have keyboards, etc.

Bill

On Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 03:59:41PM -0400, Jason McBrien wrote:
> That's a fun machine! I Belive the square doohickey in the back is either
> for an external monitor, it plugs into another converter thingy to get it to
> standard VGA. It's got an ESDI hard drive, I belive, and has two MCA
> expansion slots. You'll have to scrounge for a keyboard, I don't think it's
> a standard PS/2 connector. The red gas-plasma display is supercool, it has
> that wargames feel going on..

-- 
Bill Bradford
mrbill@mrbill.net
Austin, TX

From sean at techcare.com  Wed Oct 25 15:45:00 2000
From: sean at techcare.com (Sean Caron)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: Mac TCP/IP networking
References: <200010232326.QAA26150@stockholm.ptloma.edu> from Cameron Kaiser at "Oct 23, 2000 04:26:35 pm" <l03102802b61b9f37e730@[192.168.1.4]> <l03102807b61bb524111d@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <02c101c03ec4$719c3a70$0c00000a@techcare.com>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Ford" <mikeford@socal.rr.com>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 5:56 PM
Subject: Re: Mac TCP/IP networking


> >There was also a slick little series of devices made by Cayman called the
> >GatorBox. They would bridge pretty much any protocol (TCP/IP, Appletalk,
> >and even DECnet) over LocalTalk to Ethernet and back.
> >
> >I don't know how easy they are to track down; I've got a GatorBox CS
> >Rack-mount that I was looking forward to playing with, unfortunately it
> >appears as if the previously owning institution (a local university) set
a
> >password on it that I am not able to remove (apparently Cayman is no
> >longer assisting people with lockouts as they are in the DSL business
> >now, and seem rather uninterested in supporting their old product
> >line).
>
> The Cayman makes the FastPath look plug and play, mostly as you notice the
> support really stinks. OTOH I also have a couple Cayman boxes, and I
> remember downloading all the files off the cayman ftp at some point. If
you
> can accept a big email attachment, email me directly and I will send it
off
> to you.
>
> BTW the key item though is MacTCP encapsulation, which I don't know that
> the Cayman does, and the FastPath I am sure of.
>
>
>

Thanks for the offer!

I've actually got the software, already, though. It turns out that Cayman
has it
available on their FTP site for free now, along with the software-unlock
passwords (which are on their web site).

The problem with my particular GatorBox is that the former users of it had
set a password on it which makes it so that I cannot reconfigure the
GatorBox using the GatorConfig (if I remember correctly) utility. It asks
for the password before saving the configuration, which I do not have.

Apparently, Cayman used to have some sort of back-door for getting
back into locked GatorBoxes, but it says on their web site specifically
that they are no longer offering lock-out support for them, which is
kind of a shame, since they are extremely useful boxes.

After noticing that Cayman wasn't too interested in supporting them, I
tried changing the state of almost every jumper on the board of the
GatorBox (the "what do I have to loose" approach), but I still struck
out :)

So, unless anyone out there knows how to subvert the configuration
password on the GatorBox, I think it's going to be of rather dubious
use to me.

--Sean Caron (root@diablonet.net) | http://www.diablonet.net


From jhellige at earthlink.net  Wed Oct 25 15:53:14 2000
From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:12 2005
Subject: old MAC's
In-Reply-To: <20001025202917.15743.qmail@web9501.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20001025202917.15743.qmail@web9501.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <a05001903b61cf83ba0d1@[63.23.228.76]>

>--- Douglas Quebbeman <dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com> wrote:
>  > I have a couple of the FPU cards, although I may not still have
>>  the docs. I'd be willing to part with them for US$20 each.
>
>Would this just be something like a 68882 on a small card?
>
	there's not much point in putting an FPU in the 605's only 
expansion slot when it's as easy and cheap to replace the CPU with a 
full 68040 that includes the FPU.  I'd keep the NIC card in the PDS 
slot.

	Jeff
-- 
            Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4
        Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems:
                 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757

From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 25 15:55:43 2000
From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: Q.: SMS model OMTI 3100 bridge
Message-ID: <20001025205543.33643.qmail@web9506.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Carlos Murillo-Sanchez <cem14@cornell.edu> wrote:
> > > Does anybody know how to set the SCSI id for this bridge?
> > 
> > Not without looking at a picture of the card.
> 
> Here's a picture:
> 
> http://huey.ee.cornell.edu/omti3100.jpg

Try here - http://www.pc-disk.de/pcdisk/c/2000/1272.HTM 

I found it with an Altavista search on OMTI and 3100.  I don't mind
looking - I have two of them myself up on a shelf.

Enjoy,

-ethan


=====
Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to
vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com

The original webpage address is still going away.  The 
permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/

See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf!  It's FREE.
http://im.yahoo.com/

From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org  Wed Oct 25 16:03:58 2000
From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: Mac TCP/IP networking (was Re: old MAC's)
In-Reply-To: <20001025203100.69244.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com> from Ethan Dicks
 at "Oct 25, 2000 01:31:00 pm"
Message-ID: <200010252103.e9PL3wd06549@bg-tc-ppp708.monmouth.com>

> In theory.
>  
> > I know Netatalk and CAP seem to work well with Ethertalk -- but I've
> > never had a PC box with the Appletalk hardware board to try.
> 
> I've had great luck with Netatalk (except for having to reboot the Linux
> box all the time when making network changes).  When it's running, it
> runs well.
> 
> I happen to have this ancient Appletalk card - DB9 connector and all.  I
> remember researching it a couple of years ago and there was some interest
> in Linux drivers.  Never did hear what happened to it.
> 

There are appletalk board configuration  in the Linux kernel
config process now...

Bill

-- 
bpechter@monmouth.com    | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10  
                         | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2
                         | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour 

From jhellige at earthlink.net  Wed Oct 25 16:18:00 2000
From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: IBM P70
In-Reply-To: <20001025154403.Q18115@mrbill.net>
References: <a05001900b61ce41fe3ed@[63.23.231.110]>
 <OE71BqRKP8W3mqdlyWA00000571@hotmail.com>
 <20001025154403.Q18115@mrbill.net>
Message-ID: <a05001905b61cfddaf3f0@[63.23.228.76]>

Hi Bill,

	According to the sources I've found, if a card is removed 
from the machine, it won't boot except from a reference disk, 
afterwhich it can be reconfigured.

	Jeff

>I've got two of these free for pickup here in Austin - when I got them
>, one worked fine but had a bad HD, and one wouldnt power up at all - I
>went to try to swap the HDs (and took out the modem card while I was at
>it); now neither unit will power up.  Both have keyboards, etc.
>
>Bill
>
>On Wed, Oct 25, 2000 at 03:59:41PM -0400, Jason McBrien wrote:
>>  That's a fun machine! I Belive the square doohickey in the back is either
>>  for an external monitor, it plugs into another converter thingy to get it to
>>  standard VGA. It's got an ESDI hard drive, I belive, and has two MCA
>>  expansion slots. You'll have to scrounge for a keyboard, I don't think it's
>>  a standard PS/2 connector. The red gas-plasma display is supercool, it has
>>  that wargames feel going on..
>
>--
>Bill Bradford
>mrbill@mrbill.net
>Austin, TX

-- 
            Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4
        Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems:
                 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757

From SUPRDAVE at aol.com  Wed Oct 25 16:35:04 2000
From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: IBM P70
Message-ID: <e6.c9e2708.2728ac08@aol.com>

In a message dated 10/25/00 2:49:54 PM Central Daylight Time, 
jhellige@earthlink.net writes:

<<  Does anyone 
 know what the square 30pin connector on the rear panel is?  It 
 reminds me of the HDI-30 SCSI connector found on some Powerbooks >>

Its to plug in an external floppy drive such as the 4869. I found the cable 
for it on ebay. The P75 looks the same, but a bit thicker and has SCSI. I 
have both models. 


From KenzieM at sympatico.ca  Wed Oct 25 16:49:36 2000
From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: vaxstation II - howw to start
References: <13oWxE-26ZksiC@fwd02.sul.t-online.com> <029301c03ec2$dc0b00a0$0c00000a@techcare.com>
Message-ID: <00af01c03ecd$e32b56e0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Sean Caron" <sean@techcare.com>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 4:33 PM
Subject: Re: vaxstation II - howw to start


>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Fritz Chwolka" <Fritz_Chwolka@t-online.de>
> To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 4:20 PM
> Subject: vaxstation II - howw to start
>
>
> > Hi...
> >
> > now I cleaned the vaxstation II/GPX and  I want to make
it a runable
> system. I own no monitor but on the
> > powerconnectorside there are a lot of dsub connectors
and switsches and a
> onedigitdisplay.
> > Can someone explain them and the
> >
> > If I fire the vaxstation on the systemdisplay shows an A
and then seemd to
> wait. Nothing goes on and no
> > harddisk is aktive. The light on the powerswistchside
are in ready mode.
> >
> > So bonnecting a serial cable to the CPU  status
connector diesn't work nd
> it seemd as I must make a
> > DEC-like cable for it.
> >
> > Thanks for help.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Greetings from
> >
> > Fritz Chwolka  - Duisburg
> > / collecting old computers just for fun at
www.alterechner.de \
>
> You need to beg, borrow, or steal (or make :) a special
serial cable, DEC
> p/n BCC08. This  is actually pretty straightforward, and
you can find the directions for
> doing so all over the  place. I'd suggest checking
http://vaxarchive.org (which has a ton of
> VAX-related information  anyway).

I've also been told that you have to remove the video frame
grabber(s) before this.  I'm still hoping for a BC18Z cable
and a monitor, I got another lead to one today.  I did see a
picture of what I think was one on ebay last week but it
disappeared before I could bid.

Also it is heavy enough to put holes in asphalt, mine was
too heavy to carry to the basement so it's in the garage.
Maybe with winter coming I'll make an effort to get it
inside.





From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Wed Oct 25 17:35:07 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: [hercules-390] Well, I got the axe...
Message-ID: <001201c03ed5$0db5ac60$07759a8d@ajp166>

Who the heck is this?  Anyone got a LART?

Allison

-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Rolle <ted@acacia.datacomm.com>
To: Daniel Seagraves <root@bony.umtec.com>
Cc: hercules-390@egroups.com <hercules-390@egroups.com>;
port-its@umtec.com <port-its@umtec.com>; e10@cosmic.com <e10@cosmic.com>;
classiccmp@classiccmp.org <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>;
its-lovers@mc.lcs.mit.edu <its-lovers@mc.lcs.mit.edu>; wilson@dbit.com
<wilson@dbit.com>
Date: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 1:14 AM
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Well, I got the axe...


>How awful!  Been there -- it's not a _whole_ lot of fun.
>
>At least we have http://www.monster.com and http://www.OperationIT.com
to
>push resumes...
>
>You'll be in my thoughts...
>
>Be sure to keep the list posted!
>
>Ted
>
>


From pete at dunnington.u-net.com  Wed Oct 25 17:40:34 2000
From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: Mac TCP/IP networking
In-Reply-To: "Sean Caron" <sean@techcare.com>
        "Re: Mac TCP/IP networking" (Oct 24, 16:22)
References: <200010232326.QAA26150@stockholm.ptloma.edu> 
	from Cameron Kaiser at "Oct 23  2000 04:26:35 pm" <l03102802b61b9f37e730@[192.168.1.4]> 
	<021101c03df8$14ee9e20$0c00000a@techcare.com>
Message-ID: <10010252340.ZM7593@indy.dunnington.u-net.com>

On Oct 24, 16:22, Sean Caron wrote:

> There was also a slick little series of devices made by Cayman called the
> GatorBox.

> In any case, nice little devices; I just wish mine worked :)

Sean, there are several ways to talk to a GatorBox CS (telnet, SNMP, direct
serial connection).  They all have limitations, and it's a long time since
I used any of them, but if you want to contact me off-list, maybe we can
compare notes and get something going.  I've got all the manuals, and a CS
to talk to, though not a Mac to run the software on at the moment.

-- 

Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Dept. of Computer Science
						University of York

From jhellige at earthlink.net  Wed Oct 25 17:44:15 2000
From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: IBM P70
In-Reply-To: <e6.c9e2708.2728ac08@aol.com>
References: <e6.c9e2708.2728ac08@aol.com>
Message-ID: <a05001900b61d1247d532@[63.23.228.76]>

>
>Its to plug in an external floppy drive such as the 4869. I found the cable
>for it on ebay. The P75 looks the same, but a bit thicker and has SCSI. I
>have both models.

	What OS are you running on each of them?  I'm thinking that 
this could make an interesting portable LINUX workstation and it 
would appear that most of the MCA hardware such as SCSI and NIC cards 
are supported under it.

	Jeff
-- 
            Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4
        Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems:
                 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757

From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Wed Oct 25 18:07:02 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: DEC RP06 power
Message-ID: <004c01c03ed9$4fab5df0$07759a8d@ajp166>

From: Richard W. Schauer <rws@enteract.com>


>I've recently acquired an RP06 as part of a PDP-11/44 system, and I wish
>to run it (why not?)  I remember reading on this list a while back, that
>it could be operated on single-phase power instead of three-phase.  I
got
>a printset along with the drive, and it's pretty unclear about what
would
>use the three-phase- it's almost like the third phase is ignored, the
208v
>between the first two phases is fed to the transformer, and the primary
is
>sort-of center tapped to feed the 115 volt fans.  Is this right?  How
>would I go about feeding it single-phase if that isn't right?


Rewire.  The reason most of these devices use three phase is to
distribute a load more uniformly over what was a normal power system
in computer rooms then.  Also many of these devices have a rather harsh
startup current and slicing it two or three ways makes it much easier
for the sytem (wiring and power circuits) to sustain.

For example a lowly MVII in a BA23 has a startup surge of over 100A
for one cycle (about 16mS).  In the second 16mS that might be only 12A
and by the 10th your near nominal of say 3.2A.   If you turned ten of
them
on at the same time and same circuit the running current is maybe
32-40A but the starting current could easily exceed 1000A for several
cycles.  Why? If they were all on one breaker the whole load would
attempt to bring the caps in the power supply up that first 16mS...
save for the 10,000A surge would pull the 115v down to say 60V
(assuming thick wires and the fuses held!) the next cycle would be
needed to charge those caps more, likely 10 or 15 cycles so the huge
current would take longer to dissapate.  Add motors like the RP06 with
their nasty starting currents and you see why power systems were so
robust.  Granted the startup condition is pathological as no one would
do that (staggered is also common) but the need to distribute the
sustained load is also important.

If I had a 6000, I'd ahve rewired it already and could tell.  Most often
(but not always) three phase power is used as independant legs.
Exceptions would be beasties like VAX9000, PDP10s and other
power hungry older machines.

Allison


From Fritz_Chwolka at t-online.de  Wed Oct 25 18:28:40 2000
From: Fritz_Chwolka at t-online.de (Fritz Chwolka)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: vaxstation II - howw to start
In-Reply-To: <00af01c03ecd$e32b56e0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <13oZtQ-2GOI76C@fwd02.sul.t-online.com>

On Wed, 25 Oct 2000 17:49:36 -0400, Mike Kenzie wrote:

>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Sean Caron" <sean@techcare.com>
>To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 4:33 PM
>> > now I cleaned the vaxstation II/GPX and  I want to make
>it a runable
>> doing so all over the  place. I'd suggest checking
>http://vaxarchive.org (which has a ton of
>> VAX-related information  anyway).

taht was a goot point

>I've also been told that you have to remove the video frame
>grabber(s) before this.  I'm still hoping for a BC18Z cable
>and a monitor, I got another lead to one today.  I did see a
>picture of what I think was one on ebay last week but it
>disappeared before I could bid.

how to remove  ?  Are you meaning the
************************************************
Q5: M7169 QDSS BASE MODULE
Q6: M7168 QDSS 4 PLANE
************************************************
cards ?

>Also it is heavy enough to put holes in asphalt, mine was
>too heavy to carry to the basement so it's in the garage.
>Maybe with winter coming I'll make an effort to get it
>inside.

I removed the drives and the tape . So it was easy enough to carry it into the basement.
Now I put all back after cleaning and will see what next.

>
>
>
>



Greetings from

Fritz Chwolka  - Duisburg
/ collecting old computers just for fun at   www.alterechner.de \


From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au  Wed Oct 25 18:56:18 2000
From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: Mac TCP/IP networking (was Re: old MAC's)
References: <200010251222.e9PCMjV05513@bg-tc-ppp1176.monmouth.com>
Message-ID: <006301c03edf$2c0f4040$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Pechter" <pechter@pechter.dyndns.org>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 9:52 PM
Subject: Re: Mac TCP/IP networking (was Re: old MAC's)


> > On Oct 24,  8:36, Eric J. Korpela wrote:
> >
> > > I'm also looking for info about how to gateway between TCP/IP over
> > AppleTalk
> > > and TCP/IP over ethernet.  I've got a stand alone
AppleTalk<>Ethernet
> > box,
> > > but it appears only to transport the LocalTalk protocol without
> > transforming
> > > IP into the proper format.

Oh?  I have a Webster Multiport LT that seems to do this very well.
The lan has a sprinkling of various Appletalk/MacIP/OpenTransport boxes
on one of its Localtalk ports, plus an LC670 with an
ethernet card.  The Webster box can also do DHCP and the like.  Very
nice bit of kit.  All the macs and pc's can use the Netware server,
(running Appletalk, IPX and IP) and the Internet Connection Sharing on
the Win98 box.
So even the Mac Classic II can surf in glorious black and white.   The
Webster also speaks Decnet, and obediently appears
on the node list when I fire up the Vax 6000.    Was a good catch, these
sell for around $1900USD, mine came in a batch of gear
from an auction, ex Flinders Medical Centre, and all the utils etc for
it are freely downloadable from Webster Computers website.

If you can get hold of one of these, treasure it.


Cheers

Geoff Roberts
Computer Systems Manager
Saint Mark's College
Port Pirie,
South Australia
geoffrob at stmarks dot pp dot catholic dot edu dot au
ICQ: 1970476


From vaxman at uswest.net  Wed Oct 25 19:12:12 2000
From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: vaxstation II - howw to start
In-Reply-To: <13oWxE-26ZksiC@fwd02.sul.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1001025180843.12988B-100000@oldy.crwolff.com>


Hi Fritz,

Congratulations on your 'new' computer!

the website: http://www.vaxarchive.org has a bunch of information
about VAXes, including pinouts for the console cable, and what
the little display means. As a hint, the little display should 
start at 'F', count down to '6', pause for a while (several
minutes if you have lots of RAM), then down to '0'. If it stops
anyplace forever, you have a hardware problem. I don't remember
what the 'A' status means...

Good luck,
clint




On Wed, 25 Oct 2000, Fritz Chwolka wrote:

> Hi...
> 
> now I cleaned the vaxstation II/GPX and  I want to make it a runable system. I own no monitor but on the 
> powerconnectorside there are a lot of dsub connectors and switsches and a onedigitdisplay.
> Can someone explain them and the 
> 
> If I fire the vaxstation on the systemdisplay shows an A and then seemd to wait. Nothing goes on and no 
> harddisk is aktive. The light on the powerswistchside are in ready mode.
> 
> So bonnecting a serial cable to the CPU  status connector diesn't work nd it seemd as I must make a 
> DEC-like cable for it.
> 
> Thanks for help.
>  
> 
> 
> 
> Greetings from
> 
> Fritz Chwolka  - Duisburg
> / collecting old computers just for fun at   www.alterechner.de \
> 
> 
> 


From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org  Wed Oct 25 20:13:23 2000
From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: IBM P70
In-Reply-To: <a05001900b61d1247d532@[63.23.228.76]> from Jeff Hellige at "Oct
 25, 2000 06:44:15 pm"
Message-ID: <200010260113.e9Q1DNS07008@bg-tc-ppp708.monmouth.com>

> >
> >Its to plug in an external floppy drive such as the 4869. I found the cable
> >for it on ebay. The P75 looks the same, but a bit thicker and has SCSI. I
> >have both models.
> 
> 	What OS are you running on each of them?  I'm thinking that 
> this could make an interesting portable LINUX workstation and it 
> would appear that most of the MCA hardware such as SCSI and NIC cards 
> are supported under it.
> 
> 	Jeff
> -- 
>             Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4
>         Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems:
>                  http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757
> 
> 

Well, I ran Linux on the model 80 and it was ok.  The SCSI version was a
bit better than the ESDI -- but I believe it was the drive performance
and 4mb more memory that made it seem to run much better.

Bill

-- 
bpechter@monmouth.com    | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10  
                         | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2
                         | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour 

From SUPRDAVE at aol.com  Wed Oct 25 20:07:15 2000
From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: IBM P70
Message-ID: <e3.b73915b.2728ddc3@aol.com>

In a message dated 10/25/00 5:47:07 PM Central Daylight Time, 
jhellige@earthlink.net writes:

<< >Its to plug in an external floppy drive such as the 4869. I found the 
cable
 >for it on ebay. The P75 looks the same, but a bit thicker and has SCSI. I
 >have both models.
 
    What OS are you running on each of them?  I'm thinking that 
 this could make an interesting portable LINUX workstation and it 
 would appear that most of the MCA hardware such as SCSI and NIC cards 
 are supported under it.
 
    Jeff >>

My P70 runs OS/2 (as it should) and the P75 runs win95 suprisingly well in 
16meg. Since P75 runs scsi, it would benefit from a more modern and faster 
SCSI drive. Unfortunately for the P70, that drive is ESDI or that modified 
IDE that the mod 50s and 70s used. 

From Fritz_Chwolka at t-online.de  Wed Oct 25 20:36:30 2000
From: Fritz_Chwolka at t-online.de (Fritz Chwolka)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: redaing dec-cdroms
Message-ID: <13obt9-296lo8C@fwd06.sul.t-online.com>

Hi...

I have some DEC SOFTWARE documentation and libray CDROMS.
I knew that dec uses a 512k block instead opg 2k block while raeding. 
Question .. it is possible under linux odr netbsd to read a dec cdrom with nec multispin 6x cddrives ?


Greetings from

Fritz Chwolka  - Duisburg
/ collecting old computers just for fun at   www.alterechner.de \


From jhellige at earthlink.net  Wed Oct 25 21:01:19 2000
From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: IBM P70
In-Reply-To: <e3.b73915b.2728ddc3@aol.com>
References: <e3.b73915b.2728ddc3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <a05001900b61d4067b6e6@[63.25.161.159]>

Which version of OS/2 are you running?  I have both 2.1 and 3.0 here, 
though 2.1 is OS/2 for Windows and not the full OS.  How is it on you 
P70?  Any special considerations?

	Jeff

>In a message dated 10/25/00 5:47:07 PM Central Daylight Time,
>jhellige@earthlink.net writes:
>
><< >Its to plug in an external floppy drive such as the 4869. I found the
>cable
>  >for it on ebay. The P75 looks the same, but a bit thicker and has SCSI. I
>  >have both models.
>
>     What OS are you running on each of them?  I'm thinking that
>  this could make an interesting portable LINUX workstation and it
>  would appear that most of the MCA hardware such as SCSI and NIC cards
>  are supported under it.
>
>     Jeff >>
>
>My P70 runs OS/2 (as it should) and the P75 runs win95 suprisingly well in
>16meg. Since P75 runs scsi, it would benefit from a more modern and faster
>SCSI drive. Unfortunately for the P70, that drive is ESDI or that modified
>IDE that the mod 50s and 70s used.

-- 
            Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4
        Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems:
                 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757

From SUPRDAVE at aol.com  Wed Oct 25 21:26:17 2000
From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: IBM P70
Message-ID: <a9.ccf690e.2728f049@aol.com>

--speaking of P70s and such--

I've v3.0 running on the P70 and would recommend it. There was lots of 
fixpacks for v 2.x   I've never had trouble installing OS/2 on PS/2s. They 
are made for each other. Probably some of the easiest installs I've had. If 
you can find warp connect, install that as it's more up to date than v.3 or 
at least install blue box version 3 and run as much memory as you can. 

In a message dated 10/25/00 9:04:59 PM Central Daylight Time, 
jhellige@earthlink.net writes:

<< Which version of OS/2 are you running?  I have both 2.1 and 3.0 here, 
 though 2.1 is OS/2 for Windows and not the full OS.  How is it on you 
 P70?  Any special considerations?
  >>

From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Wed Oct 25 22:39:23 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: Looking in boxes, what did I find?
In-Reply-To: <13obt9-296lo8C@fwd06.sul.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <l03102801b61d545ce338@[192.168.1.4]>

I found a couple items this week, file under the "it pays to look in the
boxes dept."

AT&T WGS6386 manual. I can't tell much about it, just a inch thick binder
in a plexiglass slip case, but it covers the basics and includes a
diagnostic floppy and maybe one other. Is this something Tarsi needs?

MacLink plus PC Connnect. Nothing normal about this is exciting, just an
older version that shipped around mac OS 7.5, but... in the box is a ISA
card by Centram Systems West with a DB9F that says TOPS. Could this be an
early TOPS card for a PC? Copyright on the card is 1985, and it has one big
chip labeled

Zilog
Z0853004PSC
SCC
8838



From rdd at smart.net  Wed Oct 25 21:44:22 2000
From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: Well, I got the axe...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010242344350.20321-100000@bony.umtec.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010252238380.4258-100000@smarty.smart.net>


On Tue, 24 Oct 2000, Daniel Seagraves wrote:
> This is it - Just got fired from UMTech.  They're closing down the
> internet operations.  I've snagged lunar-tokyo.net, all my stuff should be
> moving there.

I'm very sorry to year that you lost your job. :-( Best of luck
finding a new one soon!  Hopefully the new one will be one that you'll
like and enjoy!

--
Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis   "In order to maximize pleasure from money,
All Rights Reserved              one must enjoy  minimizing, and delaying, 
rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900   the spending of it; having some Scottish
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd     ancestry also helps." :-)  --RDD





From foxnhare at jps.net  Wed Oct 25 22:21:22 2000
From: foxnhare at jps.net (Larry Anderson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #408
References: <200010251547.KAA07136@opal.tseinc.com>
Message-ID: <39F7A32D.FEBEE10A@jps.net>

> Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 20:46:09 -0700
> From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner@halcyon.com>
> Subject: Re: Classic Macs
> 
> I guess maybe you didn't follow the Web links.

My god!  I thoought I was a fanatic with my Commodore computers!  I
figure the next thing is to get I-Mac or Cube guts into one of those...  (=))

Hmm. I wonder what one could do with an original PET...  nah...  but If
I had a C65 motherboard... nah.
 
> These guys have upgraded the Color Classic to Power
> Mac G3 CPUs and lots of bells and whistles.

Hey, Sam!  Hot Rodded Classics?  Best speed, or best flame paint job?  ;>

> If you have access to the New York Times, see the
> Thursday, August 24, 2000 national edition page D8
> for an article entitled: "A Long-Discontinued
> Macintosh Still Thrills Collectors to the Core."
> 
> Not quite classic by this mailing list standards,
> but, as I said, truly CLASSIC.
> 
> Dave
> 
> P.S.  You probably want to volunteer to "retire" those
>       Color Classics from work into your collection.

Bought with government funds, removing those from inventory takes a bit
of work... :/

> Larry Anderson wrote:
> > 
> > > Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 13:01:37 -0700
> > > From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner@halcyon.com>
> > > Subject: Re: old MAC's
> > >
> > > Some of these aren't truly "classic" yet (<10 years),
> > > but it's looking like the Color Classic is really a
> > > CLASSIC.  If you want to really get carried away with
> > > older Macs, see about the Color Classic at
> > >         http://home.hkstar.com/~patrickn/colorclassic/
> > >
> > > Dave
> > 
> > We have a couple Color Classics at work a max of 10 megs RAM and 16mghz
> > speed makes it mighty slow (even with the MicroMac Accelerators)...
> > 

-- 
01000011 01001111 01001101 01001101 01001111 01000100 01001111 01010010 01000101
   Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS  (209) 754-1363 
300-14.4k bps
     Classic Commodore pages at:  http://www.jps.net/foxnhare/commodore.html
01000011 01001111 01001101 01010000 01010101 01010100 01000101 01010010 01010011

From THETechnoid at home.com  Wed Oct 25 22:43:38 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: IBM P70
In-Reply-To: <a9.ccf690e.2728f049@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20001026033819.SRBU26793.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

The version of Warp 3.0 you have IS the full version of OS/2.  The only
thing missing is the component that allows you to run Microsoft Windows
programs.  Warp for Windows, on install 'swallows' your win3x as opposed
of the 'bluebox' version which comes with MSwin3x.  Both versions will run
perfectly without the windows compatability component. The difference
between the two is that if you allready have a MS released copy of MSwin,
you don't have to buy the blue-boxed OS/2 to have Windows in Warp. The
redbox version was cheaper for that reason.

Redbox Warp pissed MS off as they didn't get to sell two copies of
Winblows to a user that only needed one.

>In a message dated 10/25/00 9:04:59 PM Central Daylight Time, 
>jhellige@earthlink.net writes:

><< Which version of OS/2 are you running?  I have both 2.1 and 3.0 here, 
> though 2.1 is OS/2 for Windows and not the full OS.  How is it on you 
> P70?  Any special considerations?
>  >>

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From THETechnoid at home.com  Wed Oct 25 22:53:16 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: PET keyboard
In-Reply-To: <003401c03eae$9a5fdfe0$c834d986@wkchafauradon.beckman.com>
Message-ID: <20001026034429.SYOC26793.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

Ed Kirby at CPB has one with a busted keyboard he might sell cheap.

828-274-5963



In <003401c03eae$9a5fdfe0$c834d986@wkchafauradon.beckman.com>, on 10/25/00

   at 11:53 PM, "FBA" <fauradon@mn.mediaone.net> said:

>Sorry I can't help the one I have is a chicklet type. I actually had it
>for about two years before I found out it was a PET keyboard.
>By the way any one has a logic board, case, cassette tape, CRT and what
>not for a 4 or 8k PET that they would be willing to part with? I'll pay
>shipping ;)
>Francois


-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From foo at siconic.com  Thu Oct 26 00:33:07 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #408
In-Reply-To: <39F7A32D.FEBEE10A@jps.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010252231400.26366-100000@siconic.com>

On Wed, 25 Oct 2000, Larry Anderson wrote:

> > These guys have upgraded the Color Classic to Power
> > Mac G3 CPUs and lots of bells and whistles.
> 
> Hey, Sam!  Hot Rodded Classics?  Best speed, or best flame paint job?  ;>

I don't know.  That kinda goes against the whole preservation thing.  I
think it's fine for modern day machines.  In the very least, personalizing
your computer's paint job will give it much needed character (unless it's
a Mac :)

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From pete at dunnington.u-net.com  Thu Oct 26 02:53:16 2000
From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: Mac TCP/IP networking
In-Reply-To: Douglas Quebbeman <dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com>
        "RE: Mac TCP/IP networking" (Oct 25, 14:04)
References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB282@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>
Message-ID: <10010260853.ZM7906@indy.dunnington.u-net.com>

Jim wrote:

> ViacomSoft's final answer was, "
> If you figure it out, let us know."  I figured it out.  The answer was
> to drop the ViacomSoft product and replace it with IPNetRouter.
>
> Told 'em what the fix was too!

LOL!

But did they adopt it?

-- 

Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Dept. of Computer Science
						University of York

From pete at dunnington.u-net.com  Thu Oct 26 03:00:24 2000
From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: Mac TCP/IP networking
In-Reply-To: "Sean Caron" <sean@techcare.com>
        "Re: Mac TCP/IP networking" (Oct 25, 16:45)
References: <200010232326.QAA26150@stockholm.ptloma.edu> 
	from Cameron Kaiser at "Oct 23  2000 04:26:35 pm" <l03102802b61b9f37e730@[192.168.1.4]> 
	<l03102807b61bb524111d@[192.168.1.4]> 
	<02c101c03ec4$719c3a70$0c00000a@techcare.com>
Message-ID: <10010260900.ZM7914@indy.dunnington.u-net.com>

On Oct 25, 16:45, Sean Caron wrote:

> I've actually got the software, already, though. It turns out that Cayman
> has it
> available on their FTP site for free now, along with the software-unlock
> passwords (which are on their web site).

I'm told by a colleague that ome of the later versions are actually
inferior to 2.x -- he said there was some problem in later versions that
made the GatorBox run out of memory after a while.

> The problem with my particular GatorBox is that the former users of it
had
> set a password on it which makes it so that I cannot reconfigure the
> GatorBox using the GatorConfig (if I remember correctly) utility. It asks
> for the password before saving the configuration, which I do not have.
>
> Apparently, Cayman used to have some sort of back-door for getting
> back into locked GatorBoxes, but it says on their web site specifically
> that they are no longer offering lock-out support for them, which is
> kind of a shame, since they are extremely useful boxes.

It's listed in the Hardware Manual (and mentioned no a couple of web
sites). You connect a terminal (or PC or Mac) to the serial port (VT100,
9600 baud, 8N1), set the Ethernet switch to "test", power the GatorBox, and
you should get a menu.  Select the code memory test, which wipes all the
settings.  However, you will need to re-install the GatorShare software
afterwards, which will require a Mac and a "download server" (could be a
TFTP server).

-- 

Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Dept. of Computer Science
						University of York

From jrasite at eoni.com  Thu Oct 26 05:26:24 2000
From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: Mac TCP/IP networking
References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB282@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> <10010260853.ZM7906@indy.dunnington.u-net.com>
Message-ID: <39F806CD.8E13BD81@eoni.com>

Don't know...  IPNetRouter works so well that I haven't been back to
Viacom's site.  (I use a Mac... I do beta testing voluntarily.  I
suppose that if I used the 'prefered' solution that I'd be used to
paying to do the beta.) ;o)

Jim

Pete Turnbull wrote:
> 
> Jim wrote:
> 
> > ViacomSoft's final answer was, "
> > If you figure it out, let us know."  I figured it out.  The answer was
> > to drop the ViacomSoft product and replace it with IPNetRouter.
> >
> > Told 'em what the fix was too!
> 
> LOL!
> 
> But did they adopt it?
> 
> --
> 
> Pete                                            Peter Turnbull
>                                                 Dept. of Computer Science
>                                                 University of York

From cem14 at cornell.edu  Thu Oct 26 11:09:00 2000
From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: Q.: SMS model OMTI 3100 bridge
References: <3.0.2.32.20001026090052.01430ac4@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu>
Message-ID: <39F8571C.AAA7D8D7@cornell.edu>

"Ethan Dicks" wrote:
> 
> --- Carlos Murillo-Sanchez <cem14@cornell.edu> wrote:
> > > > Does anybody know how to set the SCSI id for this bridge?
> > >
> > > Not without looking at a picture of the card.
> >
> > Here's a picture:
> >
> > http://huey.ee.cornell.edu/omti3100.jpg
> 
> Try here - http://www.pc-disk.de/pcdisk/c/2000/1272.HTM

Thanks Ethan! Now, I've set the SCSI ID to 1.  I also noticed
that the parity generation was disabled, so I enabled it.
However, when I connect the drive to another Mac, it locks
up the SCSI bus...  

-- 
Carlos Murillo-Sanchez    email:  cem14@cornell.edu  
428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department
Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853

From trolle at uwgrocers.com  Thu Oct 26 12:45:20 2000
From: trolle at uwgrocers.com (Rolle, Ted)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: [hercules-390] Well, I got the axe...
Message-ID: <246E7D5D761ED411AD1700A0C999F7842C84B8@EXCHANGE1>

Daniel: how's it going?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001026/0e341c60/attachment.html
From sean at techcare.com  Thu Oct 26 14:08:09 2000
From: sean at techcare.com (Sean Caron)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: vaxstation II - howw to start
References: <13oWxE-26ZksiC@fwd02.sul.t-online.com> <029301c03ec2$dc0b00a0$0c00000a@techcare.com> <00af01c03ecd$e32b56e0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <02e501c03f80$151d4f20$0c00000a@techcare.com>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Kenzie" <KenzieM@sympatico.ca>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 5:49 PM
Subject: Re: vaxstation II - howw to start


> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sean Caron" <sean@techcare.com>
> To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 4:33 PM
> Subject: Re: vaxstation II - howw to start
> 
> 
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Fritz Chwolka" <Fritz_Chwolka@t-online.de>
> > To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 4:20 PM
> > Subject: vaxstation II - howw to start
> >
> >
> > > Hi...
> > >
> > > now I cleaned the vaxstation II/GPX and  I want to make
> it a runable
> > system. I own no monitor but on the
> > > powerconnectorside there are a lot of dsub connectors
> and switsches and a
> > onedigitdisplay.
> > > Can someone explain them and the
> > >
> > > If I fire the vaxstation on the systemdisplay shows an A
> and then seemd to
> > wait. Nothing goes on and no
> > > harddisk is aktive. The light on the powerswistchside
> are in ready mode.
> > >
> > > So bonnecting a serial cable to the CPU  status
> connector diesn't work nd
> > it seemd as I must make a
> > > DEC-like cable for it.
> > >
> > > Thanks for help.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Greetings from
> > >
> > > Fritz Chwolka  - Duisburg
> > > / collecting old computers just for fun at
> www.alterechner.de \
> >
> > You need to beg, borrow, or steal (or make :) a special
> serial cable, DEC
> > p/n BCC08. This  is actually pretty straightforward, and
> you can find the directions for
> > doing so all over the  place. I'd suggest checking
> http://vaxarchive.org (which has a ton of
> > VAX-related information  anyway).
> 
> I've also been told that you have to remove the video frame
> grabber(s) before this.  I'm still hoping for a BC18Z cable
> and a monitor, I got another lead to one today.  I did see a
> picture of what I think was one on ebay last week but it
> disappeared before I could bid.
> 
> Also it is heavy enough to put holes in asphalt, mine was
> too heavy to carry to the basement so it's in the garage.
> Maybe with winter coming I'll make an effort to get it
> inside.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

I don't think you have to remove the graphics cardset in order
to get it to boot over a serial console; I thought it would just
come up, but with a message like:

"Normal operation not possible"

or something like that. I may be wrong, as I've never really
had a chance to play around with graphics cards on the
QBus :)

--Sean Caron (root@diablonet.net) | http://www.diablonet.net


From sean at techcare.com  Thu Oct 26 14:11:59 2000
From: sean at techcare.com (Sean Caron)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: Mac TCP/IP networking
References: <200010232326.QAA26150@stockholm.ptloma.edu> from Cameron Kaiser at "Oct 23  2000 04:26:35 pm" <l03102802b61b9f37e730@[192.168.1.4]> <l03102807b61bb524111d@[192.168.1.4]> <02c101c03ec4$719c3a70$0c00000a@techcare.com> <10010260900.ZM7914@indy.dunnington.u-net.com>
Message-ID: <032501c03f80$9dba4d10$0c00000a@techcare.com>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Pete Turnbull" <pete@dunnington.u-net.com>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 4:00 AM
Subject: Re: Mac TCP/IP networking


> On Oct 25, 16:45, Sean Caron wrote:
>
> > I've actually got the software, already, though. It turns out that
Cayman
> > has it
> > available on their FTP site for free now, along with the software-unlock
> > passwords (which are on their web site).
>
> I'm told by a colleague that ome of the later versions are actually
> inferior to 2.x -- he said there was some problem in later versions that
> made the GatorBox run out of memory after a while.
>
> > The problem with my particular GatorBox is that the former users of it
> had
> > set a password on it which makes it so that I cannot reconfigure the
> > GatorBox using the GatorConfig (if I remember correctly) utility. It
asks
> > for the password before saving the configuration, which I do not have.
> >
> > Apparently, Cayman used to have some sort of back-door for getting
> > back into locked GatorBoxes, but it says on their web site specifically
> > that they are no longer offering lock-out support for them, which is
> > kind of a shame, since they are extremely useful boxes.
>
> It's listed in the Hardware Manual (and mentioned no a couple of web
> sites). You connect a terminal (or PC or Mac) to the serial port (VT100,
> 9600 baud, 8N1), set the Ethernet switch to "test", power the GatorBox,
and
> you should get a menu.  Select the code memory test, which wipes all the
> settings.  However, you will need to re-install the GatorShare software
> afterwards, which will require a Mac and a "download server" (could be a
> TFTP server).
>
> --
>
> Pete Peter Turnbull
> Dept. of Computer Science
> University of York
>

Great! I'll have to give this a whirl once I get home today.

Thanks!

--Sean Caron (root@diablonet.net) | http://www.diablonet.net


From jfoust at threedee.com  Thu Oct 26 14:13:53 2000
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: Anderson Jacobsen ADC 300 modem
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001026140828.02592f00@pc>


On a recent surplus hunt, I picked up an Anderson Jacobson 
ADC 300 baud acoustic coupler modem for $1.  What a beauty - it's
in a wooden box with a flip-top lid and a brushed aluminum 
interior panel.  It has two DB-25 connectors, but one is used 
to feed *in* the AC power (!).  I haven't disassembled it yet.
I did a quick web search and one turns up in Megan Gentry's 
collection.  How old is this?  It's serial number 759.

- John


From jimw at agora.rdrop.com  Thu Oct 26 14:30:27 2000
From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: Anderson Jacobsen ADC 300 modem
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20001026140828.02592f00@pc>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0010261228450.25337-100000@agora.rdrop.com>

On Thu, 26 Oct 2000, John Foust wrote:

> 
> On a recent surplus hunt, I picked up an Anderson Jacobson 
> ADC 300 baud acoustic coupler modem for $1.  What a beauty - it's
> in a wooden box with a flip-top lid and a brushed aluminum 
> interior panel.  It has two DB-25 connectors, but one is used 
> to feed *in* the AC power (!).  I haven't disassembled it yet.
> I did a quick web search and one turns up in Megan Gentry's 
> collection.  How old is this?  It's serial number 759.

Well... I remember using a modem like that with a Teletype to dial into
the original CBBS (Chicago) system in probably late 1977 or early 1978...

-jim
---
jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174


From foo at siconic.com  Thu Oct 26 14:06:45 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: Anderson Jacobsen ADC 300 modem
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20001026140828.02592f00@pc>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010261203300.27199-100000@siconic.com>

On Thu, 26 Oct 2000, John Foust wrote:

> On a recent surplus hunt, I picked up an Anderson Jacobson 
> ADC 300 baud acoustic coupler modem for $1.  What a beauty - it's
> in a wooden box with a flip-top lid and a brushed aluminum 
> interior panel.  It has two DB-25 connectors, but one is used 
> to feed *in* the AC power (!).  I haven't disassembled it yet.
> I did a quick web search and one turns up in Megan Gentry's 
> collection.  How old is this?  It's serial number 759.

I have something very similar.  Have you got a picture to post?  I'll try
to get one of mine and stick it up on my website.

If I am recalling correctly, mine was apparently "manufactured" by
Livermore Data Systems, which I believe is a compnay that custom made
computer and data products for Pacific Bell back in the late 70s and early
80s in my area.  I once met the guy who owned the company (and got a bunch
of computers from him :)  He lives around the corner from me.  It may very
well have been OEM'd from someone else.

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From bill_r at inetnebr.com  Thu Oct 26 15:32:20 2000
From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: Old HP Stuff Available
Message-ID: <3m4hvs8lmcftd42hejfrb5nm1l8fi2m3ar@4ax.com>

HP SRMs (pre-Unix - will run HP BASIC) available
Some CPUs, some hard drives.  All have HPIB ports.  
Possibly some printers.  

and 

HP 340's (diskless) with ethernet, HPIB, serial, & parallel built in.
Will run Unix.

Your cost on any of these would be shipping plus packing at Mailboxes,
Etc., plus $10 per item for us to haul them from the basement, put
them in our trailer and tote them to Mailboxes. 

If you're interested, let me know ASAP, as they go to the scrapper on
Monday, 10/30/00 when the company's lease runs out.  If you're
familiar with HP stuff and want details, please contact me.  If you're
not familiar, I can't help you much, although I *can* read numbers
from front panels if there's anything in particular you're looking
for.  Just trying to save some good, old hardware from the shredder.

It's located in Lincoln, Nebraska, so if you're within driving
distance this weekend, we can probably arrange something to save you
shipping and handling.




Bill Richman
bill_r@inetnebr.com
http://incolor.inetnebr.com

Home of Fun with Molten Metal, technological
oddities, and the original COSMAC Elf 
computer simulator!

From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com  Thu Oct 26 16:45:37 2000
From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: Anderson Jacobsen ADC 300 modem
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010261203300.27199-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <000501c03f96$1492c060$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>

I picked up a wood box LDS modem many years ago at
the FootHill Swap meet.  I hope nobody harbors a 
grudge but this was before I was a serious collector;
I bought it for the box and gutted it
(would never do that today).

Anyway, as far as I can remember the thing had No IC's
in it.  It was all discrete components and dozen(s) of
thimble sized things in it that I assumed were tuned
inductors.
Does this sound right?  A Modem of completely analog
devices?

John A.

From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Thu Oct 26 17:47:43 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: Old HP Stuff Available
In-Reply-To: <3m4hvs8lmcftd42hejfrb5nm1l8fi2m3ar@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001026174743.1e9739e0@mailhost.intellistar.net>

At 03:32 PM 10/26/00 -0500, Bill wrote:
>HP SRM

   SRM = Shared Resource Manager. SRMs are basicly file servers altough I
suspect what he has may actually be computers with the SRM interface card
in them. I've never even seen a SRM but I've seen lots of HP computers with
the interface cards. FWIW the computers will still run any of the standard
HP OSs; HP-UX (Unix), BASIC, Pascal and HPL.


s (pre-Unix - will run HP BASIC) 

  Nope, not pre UNIX. these are all 80s vintage. They will run early
versions of HP-UX (HP's version of UNIX). They will also run the other HP
langages lsted above.

available
>Some CPUs, some hard drives.  All have HPIB ports.  
>Possibly some printers.  
>
>and 
>
>HP 340's (diskless) with ethernet, HPIB, serial, & parallel built in.
>Will run Unix.

   340 are pizza box sized computers and they make nice compact systems.  I
can dig out the details if someone needs them. But you'll need to get the
part number from Bill.


   Joe


From mike at rivermen.se  Thu Oct 26 16:55:35 2000
From: mike at rivermen.se (Mike Cruse)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: pdp11
References: <39EB00B0.26035BD7@groton.pfizer.com>
Message-ID: <39F8A857.FB503579@rivermen.se>

Hi Carter,

Is the machine still available? Where is it located?

I am in California.

Mike


carter courtney wrote:

> Hi:
> My company has a working pdp11 with disk drives and interface boards. It
> is now moving offline and to the disposition process. I believe that it
> will be moved to the trash unless someone will take it. We can not
> assume any responsibility for transportation but would be glad ot donate
> the pdp to a good cause.
>
> carter courtney


From Fritz_Chwolka at t-online.de  Thu Oct 26 17:10:41 2000
From: Fritz_Chwolka at t-online.de (Fritz Chwolka)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: RC Partner750  systemdisk needed
Message-ID: <13ov9V-1Laro0C@fwd03.sul.t-online.com>

Help....

now I powerd on my RC Partner 750 and it didn boot.
It's a CP/M86 system with harddisk and was build in daenemark by RC Computers.
Bad I have no systemdisks and it seemd as if the ccpm.sys on the harddisk is bad.
I have teledisk and if someone has a running rcpartner or the systemdisks please mail me.




Greetings from

Fritz Chwolka  - Duisburg
/ collecting old computers just for fun at   www.alterechner.de \


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Oct 26 16:55:37 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: Anderson Jacobsen ADC 300 modem
In-Reply-To: <000501c03f96$1492c060$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com> from "John Allain" at Oct 26, 0 05:45:37 pm
Message-ID: <m13ouzr-000IyHC@p850ug1>

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From fmc at reanimators.org  Thu Oct 26 17:23:06 2000
From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: E-mail clue (was Re: vaxstation II - howw to start)
In-Reply-To: "Sean Caron"'s message of "Thu, 26 Oct 2000 15:08:09 -0400"
References: <13oWxE-26ZksiC@fwd02.sul.t-online.com> <029301c03ec2$dc0b00a0$0c00000a@techcare.com> <00af01c03ecd$e32b56e0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> <02e501c03f80$151d4f20$0c00000a@techcare.com>
Message-ID: <200010262223.e9QMN6w83344@daemonweed.reanimators.org>

"Sean Caron" <sean@techcare.com> wrote:

78 lines of Mike Kenzie quoting all of Sean's message quoting all of
Fritz Chwolka's original message, followed by 9 lines of new text and
one line of signature.

Hence this reminder to Sean and Mike: hey guys, trim quoted text to
relevant portions if you want people to read what you write.  Some of
us lose patience after about 20 lines of nothing but quoted text.

-Frank McConnell



From vaxman at uswest.net  Thu Oct 26 18:11:51 2000
From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: vaxstation II - howw to start
In-Reply-To: <13oZtQ-2GOI76C@fwd02.sul.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1001026170942.18510C-100000@oldy.crwolff.com>




On Thu, 26 Oct 2000, Fritz Chwolka wrote:

> 
> >Also it is heavy enough to put holes in asphalt, mine was
> >too heavy to carry to the basement so it's in the garage.
> >Maybe with winter coming I'll make an effort to get it
> >inside.
> 
> I removed the drives and the tape . So it was easy enough to carry it into the basement.
> Now I put all back after cleaning and will see what next.
> 

If you removed the back side cover, the power supply (HEAVY) is
easily removed. A couple zeus fasteners and a few connectorized
power cables. I have carried a fully loaded uVAX II (3 drives, TK50,
powersupply, and all) up two flights of stairs by myself, but
I wouldn't recommend it to anyone :)

clint



From vaxman at uswest.net  Thu Oct 26 18:13:31 2000
From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: redaing dec-cdroms
In-Reply-To: <13obt9-296lo8C@fwd06.sul.t-online.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1001026171223.18510D-100000@oldy.crwolff.com>


Yes, the files are stored in 2K blocks on the CDROM always. The drive
just allows the DEC machine to read it 512 bytes at a time.

clint


On Thu, 26 Oct 2000, Fritz Chwolka wrote:

> Hi...
> 
> I have some DEC SOFTWARE documentation and libray CDROMS.
> I knew that dec uses a 512k block instead opg 2k block while raeding. 
> Question .. it is possible under linux odr netbsd to read a dec cdrom with nec multispin 6x cddrives ?
> 
> 
> Greetings from
> 
> Fritz Chwolka  - Duisburg
> / collecting old computers just for fun at   www.alterechner.de \
> 
> 
> 


From foo at siconic.com  Thu Oct 26 17:21:46 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: Anderson Jacobsen ADC 300 modem
In-Reply-To: <m13ouzr-000IyHC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010261519380.28262-100000@siconic.com>

On Thu, 26 Oct 2000, Tony Duell wrote:

> We had (I doubt any are still in use) some modems over here that (IIRC) 
> were made by Plessey, and rented by the GPO (who ran the telephone 
> service, and who owned everything connected to it at the time. You had to 
> rent whatever equipment you wanted from them). Anyway, the modems in 
> question were large -- about 2/3 the size of a PC/AT system box -- metal 
> cases with (mormally) 4 plug-in modules inside. They were the PSU, 
> Modulator, Demodulator, and control. It was all discrete components 
> (well, the 'control' module, which did things like ring detection, 
> hookswitch, etc used a number of relays). The modulator was either a pair 
> of oscillators and a way to swich between them, or a single VCO with a 
> circuit to switch the control voltage. 

I just picked up something like this a few weeks ago.  I believe it was
all discrete components on about 4 plug-in modules as you describe, but
I've forgotten who manufactured it.  I'll take a peek at it when I get
home.

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Thu Oct 26 18:34:54 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: Anderson Jacobsen ADC 300 modem
Message-ID: <009601c03fa6$1709e7a0$06779a8d@ajp166>

From: John Allain <John.Allain@donnelley.infousa.com>


>Anyway, as far as I can remember the thing had No IC's
>in it.  It was all discrete components and dozen(s) of
>thimble sized things in it that I assumed were tuned
>inductors.
>Does this sound right?  A Modem of completely analog
>devices?


They were analog right up to the 1200baud and even then 
there was a fair amount of analog up till DSP got cheap 
about 10 years ago.

I have a 110/300 baud that was used with a TTY back 
before 78!  nearly 11"x8"x2" box with a board crammed 
mostly with O-amps (709/741 types).

Allison



From healyzh at aracnet.com  Thu Oct 26 19:31:41 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist License Question
Message-ID: <200010270031.RAA16408@shell1.aracnet.com>

Does anyone happen to have a list of what the various layered product PAKs
in the OpenVMS Hobbyist program go to?  I'm specifically wanting to know
what the SQL-DEV PAK is for, but am interested in the rest if anyone has
such a list.

			Zane

From jimdavis at gorge.net  Thu Oct 26 18:50:05 2000
From: jimdavis at gorge.net (Jim Davis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: Anderson Jacobsen ADC 300 modem
References: <4.3.2.7.0.20001026140828.02592f00@pc>
Message-ID: <39F8C32D.4F60994B@gorge.net>

The OMSI (Oregon Museum of Science and Industry) had one in 72.
It was OLD then.
Jim Davis.

John Foust wrote:
> 
> On a recent surplus hunt, I picked up an Anderson Jacobson
> ADC 300 baud acoustic coupler modem for $1.  What a beauty - it's
> in a wooden box with a flip-top lid and a brushed aluminum
> interior panel.  It has two DB-25 connectors, but one is used
> to feed *in* the AC power (!).  I haven't disassembled it yet.
> I did a quick web search and one turns up in Megan Gentry's
> collection.  How old is this?  It's serial number 759.
> 
> - John

From lemay at cs.umn.edu  Thu Oct 26 20:05:53 2000
From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: Anderson Jacobsen ADC 300 modem
In-Reply-To: <39F8C32D.4F60994B@gorge.net> "from Jim Davis at Oct 26, 2000 04:50:05
 pm"
Message-ID: <200010270105.UAA23694@caesar.cs.umn.edu>

I have an older model, the ADC 260. SN 2019.


 DB-25's, plus a power cable goes in through a hole drilled in the 
middle of the bottom side. And there are some stylish rivets along
the bottom as well.

-Lawrence LeMay

> John Foust wrote:
> > 
> > On a recent surplus hunt, I picked up an Anderson Jacobson
> > ADC 300 baud acoustic coupler modem for $1.  What a beauty - it's
> > in a wooden box with a flip-top lid and a brushed aluminum
> > interior panel.  It has two DB-25 connectors, but one is used
> > to feed *in* the AC power (!).  I haven't disassembled it yet.
> > I did a quick web search and one turns up in Megan Gentry's
> > collection.  How old is this?  It's serial number 759.
> > 
> > - John
> 


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Thu Oct 26 21:00:27 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:13 2005
Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist License Question
Message-ID: <00c301c03fba$e7fd2d90$06779a8d@ajp166>

From: healyzh@aracnet.com <healyzh@aracnet.com>



>Does anyone happen to have a list of what the various layered product
PAKs
>in the OpenVMS Hobbyist program go to?  I'm specifically wanting to know
>what the SQL-DEV PAK is for, but am interested in the rest if anyone has
>such a list.



SQL (Server Query Language) developers pak.  Handy if you want to serve
out databases.
Thats one I'd like to play with.  I'm tiring of SQL on NT and SQL on
linux(posgrel or somesuch)
is maybe next.

Allison


From mcquiggi at sfu.ca  Thu Oct 26 11:02:50 2000
From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: Q: Third-Party Unibus Memory Boards
Message-ID: <200010261602.JAA20212@fraser.sfu.ca>

Hi Gang:

This morning I was sorting through a bunch of my spare Unibus cards, and
noted that I have at least half a dozen RAM boards. These are all, to my
knowledge, Unibus cards.

These are not documented in the DEC Field Guide (thanks to Megan for her
diligence in keeping it relatively current). 

In the short term I'd like to find out the characteristics of these cards,
and their compatibility, in the longer term these 3rd party cards should
be added to the Guide.

Here's what I know:

1. Plessey Peripherals 705075-100 Rev B. Hex height card.

2. Standard Memories MM-140 PD Rev C4, also marked 102415-442 and stamped
"20272" in large (3/8") white letters. Also a hex card.

I have about 5 of the former, and 3-4 of the latter.

My motivation for this exercise is to find a card that I can use to swap
out the 128 KW RAM board on my (sick) 11/34A. This card is a M7891-DB, 128
KW 18 bit parity RAM.

If either of these cards are similar in config (size < 128KW is irrelevant
as I just want to see if I can get the machine to boot) then great,
otherwise at least I can label the boards, and ask Megan to add them to
the Field Guide.

Thanks,

Kevin


-- 
Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD
mcquiggi@sfu.ca
----------
To unsubscribe (or subscribe) from (to) this list, send a message to
info-pdp11-request@village.org, with the first line of the message
body being "unsubscribe" or "subscribe", respectively (without the quotes).


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Thu Oct 26 21:53:18 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist License Question
In-Reply-To: <00c301c03fba$e7fd2d90$06779a8d@ajp166> from "ajp166" at Oct 26, 2000 10:00:27 PM
Message-ID: <200010270253.TAA25824@shell1.aracnet.com>

> SQL (Server Query Language) developers pak.  Handy if you want to serve
> out databases.
> Thats one I'd like to play with.  I'm tiring of SQL on NT and SQL on
> linux(posgrel or somesuch)
> is maybe next.
> 
> Allison

So....  If I'm understanding correctly this will allow me to a Database? 
What databases does this work with?  Is this for RDB or what?  This is
sounding like it's exactly what I've been wanting!

			Zane


From bill_r at inetnebr.com  Thu Oct 26 21:55:11 2000
From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: Details of old HP Stuff Available (act now!)
Message-ID: <8sqhvs84g7j04vcq0estnv7ahijmahkog6@4ax.com>

Here's a detailed list of what's available.  

HP9888A
HP7946 (HDD&tape drive)
HP7957 (HDD)
HP7945(HDD)
HP 332 (Workstation)
HP50960A (qty 4) SRM (server)
HP2397A (graphics adapter?)
HP9121 (qty 2) dual 3.5" drives
HP9135A 
HP9895A (qty 2) dual 8" floppy
HP9127A (qty 3) 5.25" floppy
HP340 (qty 6) workstation
HP340 expander box (qty 3)

Series 100/150 touch screen workstation (this is a pretty neat looking
little box - like a short, fat Mac, with an LED/phototransistor array along
the edges of the display to tell where your finger is)

HP 45500A (this is a _really_ funky looking terminal or workstation of some
sort - it looks like the top half of the original "space wars" game - or
like it came from the set of Space 1999...)

Misc: 

HP98550 card 
HP340 Human Interface Card (qty 4)
HP HIL tablets (A-size digitizer)
HP35741A monitor (qty 2)

HPIB cables (about 50)

Aydin 1986 vintage color monitor (RGB&composite sync)

Televideo TS1608

IBM original XT with hard drive (believed to be working)

lots of HP backup tapes (the ones half the size of a cigar box)

miscellaneous HP books

Your cost on any of these would be shipping plus packing at Mailboxes,
Etc., plus $5 per item "earnest money"  for us to haul them from the
basement, put them in our trailer, tote them to Mailboxes, and fill out the
paperwork.

If you're interested, let me know ASAP, as they go to the scrapper on
Monday, 10/30/00 when the company's lease runs out.  Just trying to save
some good, old hardware from the shredder.

It's located in Lincoln, Nebraska, so if you're within driving distance this
weekend, we can probably arrange something to save you shipping and
handling.  If you'll haul it out of the basement for us, it's free.  (Which
is, incidentally, the same deal the scrapper offered them... :-(


      -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com)
       Web Page: http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r
       Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with 
       Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities.

From mbg at world.std.com  Thu Oct 26 22:44:16 2000
From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: Q: Third-Party Unibus Memory Boards
Message-ID: <200010270344.XAA13247@world.std.com>


>These are not documented in the DEC Field Guide (thanks to Megan for her
>diligence in keeping it relatively current). 

>In the short term I'd like to find out the characteristics of these
>cards, and their compatibility, in the longer term these 3rd party cards
>should be added to the Guide. 

Please do send me what you can find out about them...

					Megan Gentry
					Former RT-11 Developer

+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL   | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group |          (home):  mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation    | addresses need '@' in place of '!'  |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43   | URL:     http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | 
| Nashua, NH 03062               | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055                 |  required." - mbg            KB1FCA |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

From THETechnoid at home.com  Thu Oct 26 23:55:22 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist License Question
In-Reply-To: <200010270031.RAA16408@shell1.aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <20001027044724.BHGH26316.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

Man, I just got my Vaxstation running decwindows and it says I am not
licensed. Thus I can't log on to use it.  I have the same question in to
Montagar software as to how to license the thing.  Supposedly I'm legal, I
just don't know what to enter.

The address for questions is:

Hobbyist@montagar.com


In <200010270031.RAA16408@shell1.aracnet.com>, on 10/27/00 
   at 12:55 AM, healyzh@aracnet.com said:

>Does anyone happen to have a list of what the various layered product
>PAKs in the OpenVMS Hobbyist program go to?  I'm specifically wanting to
>know what the SQL-DEV PAK is for, but am interested in the rest if anyone
>has such a list.

>			Zane

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Thu Oct 26 23:57:50 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist License Question
In-Reply-To: <20001027044724.BHGH26316.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> from "THETechnoid@home.com" at Oct 27, 2000 12:55:22 AM
Message-ID: <200010270457.VAA01723@shell1.aracnet.com>

Jeffrey S. Worley wrote:
> Man, I just got my Vaxstation running decwindows and it says I am not
> licensed. Thus I can't log on to use it.  I have the same question in to
> Montagar software as to how to license the thing.  Supposedly I'm legal, I
> just don't know what to enter.

Actually this is pretty easy I'm guessing.  Do you have the DW-MOTIF PAK
loaded?  You'll need this and the OPENVMS-ALPHA PAK at a minimum loaded.  Or
is your question on how to get and load the licenses.

The down side is if you're at the DECwindows login screen and you don't have
DW-MOTIF loaded you'd better have a terminal that you can hook up to the
VAXstation so you can load the DW-MOTIF PAK.

I'm embarrased to admit I went through this problem this week when setting
up a test box.

			Zane

From THETechnoid at home.com  Fri Oct 27 00:24:19 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist License Question
In-Reply-To: <200010270457.VAA01723@shell1.aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <20001027052146.CJRU26316.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

I am at the Decwindows logon after having logged on as SYSTEM and can go
no furthur as the login says I have no licence.  The OpenVMS 7.2 pack I
got in the mail gave no information to speak of keys.

Yes, I loaded motif 125 which is why I am able to complain.  This is the
first time I have seen Graphics from the machine since I aquired it.  I
had terrible trouble finding a drive that would run properly.  Until today
the only drive I could get the install to work with was an old Quantum 210
scsi.  I hung a 4.3 gig quantum on it today and the install went like
BUTTER.  Great! But not great without the keys to the barn.....

Just as I received your message I got through via the montagar website for
a key to the operating system but I'm not confident yet that this is a
fix.  The website said that my app had been accepted using my Worleje user
code...... Hope I get the info I need.  Thanks for your reply.

Since I'm so close machine-wise, I hate to be slowed by a website.

V/R

Jeff


In <200010270457.VAA01723@shell1.aracnet.com>, on 10/27/00 
   at 01:24 AM, healyzh@aracnet.com said:

>Actually this is pretty easy I'm guessing.  Do you have the DW-MOTIF PAK
>loaded?  You'll need this and the OPENVMS-ALPHA PAK at a minimum loaded. 
>Or is your question on how to get and load the licenses.

>The down side is if you're at the DECwindows login screen and you don't
>have DW-MOTIF loaded you'd better have a terminal that you can hook up to
>the VAXstation so you can load the DW-MOTIF PAK.

>I'm embarrased to admit I went through this problem this week when
>setting up a test box.

>			Zane

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Fri Oct 27 01:02:47 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: Was it 110, 135, then 300?
In-Reply-To: <200010270105.UAA23694@caesar.cs.umn.edu>
References: <39F8C32D.4F60994B@gorge.net> "from Jim Davis at Oct 26, 2000
 04:50:05 pm"
Message-ID: <l03102800b61eca842fde@[192.168.1.4]>

What was the progression in modems? Was it 110, 135, then 300, or were the
first two speeds pre modem technology?



From sethm at loomcom.com  Fri Oct 27 01:55:56 2000
From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist License Question
In-Reply-To: <20001027052146.CJRU26316.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>; from THETechnoid@home.com on Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 01:24:19AM -0400
References: <200010270457.VAA01723@shell1.aracnet.com> <20001027052146.CJRU26316.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>
Message-ID: <20001026235556.A2493@loomcom.com>

On Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 01:24:19AM -0400, THETechnoid@home.com wrote:
> I am at the Decwindows logon after having logged on as SYSTEM and can go
> no furthur as the login says I have no licence.  The OpenVMS 7.2 pack I
> got in the mail gave no information to speak of keys.

There are two separate license applications you can request through
the Montagar website.  One is for the OpenVMS operating system itself,
which I assume you have loaded onto the system.  Just getting the license
in the mail isn't enough, you need to actually load the license into
the system.  For a VAX, you will need to load the VAX-VMS license PAK.

You will also need to load the DECwindows Motif license PAK.  You get
this license by requesting the Layered Products Licenses from Montagar's
website.  On the license request page, there is a pull-down menu that
says "License Type:".  You can choose "OpenVMS VAX", "OpenVMS Alpha",
or "Layered Products".  I assume you've already chosen "OpenVMS VAX"
for the VAX-VMS license PAK.  Good.  Now you need to choose "Layered
Products" to request the layered products licenses.

There are a bunch of layered products licenses.  I don't know what they
all are.  The one you want to load on your system is "DW-MOTIF".

Unfortunately, to get yourself back to a state where you can load the
licenses, you need to get VMS to load without going into DECwindows.
The quickest way to do this is run the system console on the serial
line and attach a terminal.  That way the terminal becomes the OPA0:
device and you can use it to log in as SYSTEM to do system maintenance
(like loading the DW-MOTIF and VAX-VMS licenses as needed).

If you DON'T have a terminal, you're not completely out of luck.  Damn,
I don't remember exactly how to do this, but you can do a conversational
boot (which is done with a flag of /1 I think, so you'd do something like

 >>> B/1 DUA0
 [or whatever your system disk is]

Then you'll find yourself at the SYSBOOT> prompt.  Issue the commands

 SYSBOOT> SET/STARTUP OPA0:
 SYSBOOT> SET WINDOW_SYSTEM 0
 SYSBOOT> CONTINUE

The system should continue to start up without DECwindows.  Log in as
SYSTEM and load your licenses.  Finally type

 $ RUN SYS$SYSTEM:SYSGEN

to get to the SYSGEN> prompt.  At the SYSGEN> prompt, type:

 SYSGEN> USE CURRENT
 SYSGEN> SET WINDOW_SYSTEM 1
 SYSGEN> WRITE CURRENT
 SYSGEN> EXIT

And then reboot.  I _think_ this will work, but I'm not 100% certain,
as it's been a while since I did any of this stuff!

To load a license, log in as SYSTEM and type

 $ @SYS$UPDATE:VMSLICENSE
 [I think... it's been a while]

and follow the prompts.  Fill in the appropriate questions with the
appropriate fields from your license PAK.  It's menu-driven.

Anyway, I sure hope this helps.  Good luck, and happy VMSing!

-Seth

From jim at calico.litterbox.com  Fri Oct 27 02:44:56 2000
From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: Was it 110, 135, then 300?
In-Reply-To: <l03102800b61eca842fde@[192.168.1.4]> from "Mike Ford" at Oct 26, 2000 10:02:47 PM
Message-ID: <200010270744.BAA17039@calico.litterbox.com>

Weren't there baudot (1 bps) modems?  I dunno, my first one was 300 baud.


> 
> What was the progression in modems? Was it 110, 135, then 300, or were the
> first two speeds pre modem technology?
> 
> 


-- 
Jim Strickland
jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
                              BeOS Powered!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

From dpeschel at eskimo.com  Fri Oct 27 04:44:17 2000
From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: Was it 110, 135, then 300?
In-Reply-To: <l03102800b61eca842fde@[192.168.1.4]> from "Mike Ford" at Oct 26, 2000 10:02:47 PM
Message-ID: <200010270944.CAA06077@eskimo.com>

> What was the progression in modems? Was it 110, 135, then 300, or were the
> first two speeds pre modem technology?

I'm not sure if there was _a_ progression, but anyway...

No, the first two speeds were not pre-modem technology.  The early Teletypes
(with the five-bit character codes) work at around 45 bps (or more if you
change the gears).  The later models with ASCII work at 110 bps.  Many units
have direct connections through current loops, but some have modems.

BTW, the technique they use is still used today and called by the same name:
Frequency Shift Keying.  "Frequency shift" is because the two bits are
represented by tones of slightly different frequencies, "keying" because the
Teletype was regarded as a distant descendant of Morse's telegraph key. 
There is an intermediate machine, named after its inventor Wheatstone, which
uses a typewriter keyboard, punched paper tape, and electric transmission of
the signal, but works directly in Morse Code!  The printer that goes with
this setup prints dots and dashes on a narrow strip of paper.)

The 135-bps speed was created by IBM for their typewriter terminals.

Another type of machine -- which uses a modem but for an analog signal --
is a certain type of fax machine.  It's not necessarily relevant but it's
interesting (and fun to watch).

-- Derek

From dpeschel at eskimo.com  Fri Oct 27 04:58:12 2000
From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: Was it 110, 135, then 300?
In-Reply-To: <200010270744.BAA17039@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at Oct 27, 2000 01:44:56 AM
Message-ID: <200010270958.CAA06372@eskimo.com>

> Weren't there baudot (1 bps) modems?  I dunno, my first one was 300 baud.

??? 1 bps is pretty slow!

Emile Baudot invented a five-key chorded keyboard, a way to turn the
keypresses into a signal and send it electrically, I assume some kind of
printer, and a five-bit binary-coded character set.  People realized they
needed a unit to measure the speed of information transmission.  They
created the unit -- one change in the signal state per second -- and named
it the "baud" after Baudot. (Old books talk of a machine working at so many
bauds, which makes sense but still seems funny to me.)

If a signal has more than two states, then one baud for that signal is more
than one bit per second.

Someone named Murray (I forget his first name) came up with a new five-bit
code designed to save wear on the tape punches by making the most frequent
letters have the fewest holes.  People often talk about Baudot code when
they really mean Murray code.

The Teletype models that use the Murray code run at about 45 baud (or more
if you change the gears).

-- Derek

From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Fri Oct 27 07:54:24 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: Details of old HP Stuff Available (act now!)
In-Reply-To: <8sqhvs84g7j04vcq0estnv7ahijmahkog6@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001027075424.402f8408@mailhost.intellistar.net>

  FYI.

At 09:55 PM 10/26/00 -0500, Bill wrote:
>Here's a detailed list of what's available.  
>
>HP9888A

   I/O expander for the HP 9800 series computers.


>HP7946 (HDD&tape drive)
>HP7957 (HDD)

    These are nice drives and they're fast.

>HP7945(HDD)
>HP 332 (Workstation)
>HP50960A (qty 4) SRM (server)
>HP2397A (graphics adapter?)

   Sounds like part of a printer based on the PN.

>HP9121 (qty 2) dual 3.5" drives

   Single sided double density drive. These work on most HP computers. I
think these will work on the HP 85. HP-IB.

>HP9135A 
>HP9895A (qty 2) dual 8" floppy

    *Nice!* Double Density Double sided 8" floppy drives with HP-IB
interface. These also work on most HP computers including the HP 85. The
capacity is about 1.2 Mb per drive if I remember right.

>HP9127A (qty 3) 5.25" floppy

     These are neat. They're read and write MS-DOS formatted disks. I know
the 150 supports them but I'm not sure what other systems do.

>HP340 (qty 6) workstation
>HP340 expander box (qty 3)
>
>Series 100/150 touch screen workstation (this is a pretty neat looking
>little box - like a short, fat Mac, with an LED/phototransistor array along
>the edges of the display to tell where your finger is)

   These are MS-DOS compatible (not IBM compatible though).


>
>HP 45500A (this is a _really_ funky looking terminal or workstation of some
>sort - it looks like the top half of the original "space wars" game - or
>like it came from the set of Space 1999...)
>
>Misc: 
>
>HP98550 card 

   Video card for the HP 9000 200 and 300 series computers.


>HP340 Human Interface Card (qty 4)
>HP HIL tablets (A-size digitizer)
>HP35741A monitor (qty 2)
>
>HPIB cables (about 50)
>
>Aydin 1986 vintage color monitor (RGB&composite sync)
>
>Televideo TS1608
>
>IBM original XT with hard drive (believed to be working)
>
>lots of HP backup tapes (the ones half the size of a cigar box)
>
>miscellaneous HP books
>
>Your cost on any of these would be shipping plus packing at Mailboxes,
>Etc., plus $5 per item "earnest money"  for us to haul them from the
>basement, put them in our trailer, tote them to Mailboxes, and fill out the
>paperwork.
>
>If you're interested, let me know ASAP, as they go to the scrapper on
>Monday, 10/30/00 when the company's lease runs out.  Just trying to save
>some good, old hardware from the shredder.
>
>It's located in Lincoln, Nebraska, so if you're within driving distance this
>weekend, we can probably arrange something to save you shipping and
>handling.  If you'll haul it out of the basement for us, it's free.  (Which
>is, incidentally, the same deal the scrapper offered them... :-(
>
>
>      -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com)
>       Web Page: http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r
>       Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with 
>       Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities.
>


From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Fri Oct 27 07:46:35 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: Details of old HP Stuff Available (act now!)
In-Reply-To: <8sqhvs84g7j04vcq0estnv7ahijmahkog6@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001027074635.402f3262@mailhost.intellistar.net>

  FYI.

At 09:55 PM 10/26/00 -0500, Bill wrote:
>Here's a detailed list of what's available.  
>
>HP9888A

   I/O expander for the HP 9000 series.


>HP7946 (HDD&tape drive)
>HP7957 (HDD)

    These are nice drives and they're fast.

>HP7945(HDD)
>HP 332 (Workstation)
>HP50960A (qty 4) SRM (server)
>HP2397A (graphics adapter?)

   Sounds like part of a printer based on the PN.

>HP9121 (qty 2) dual 3.5" drives

   Single sided double density drive. These work on most HP computers. I
think these will work on the HP 85. HP-IB.

>HP9135A 
>HP9895A (qty 2) dual 8" floppy

    *Nice!* Double Density Double sided 8" floppy drives with HP-IB
interface. These also work on most HP computers including the HP 85. The
capacity is about 1.2 Mb per drive if I remember right.

>HP9127A (qty 3) 5.25" floppy

     These are neat. They're read and write MS-DOS formatted disks. I know
the 150 supports them but I'm not sure what other systems do.

>HP340 (qty 6) workstation
>HP340 expander box (qty 3)
>
>Series 100/150 touch screen workstation (this is a pretty neat looking
>little box - like a short, fat Mac, with an LED/phototransistor array along
>the edges of the display to tell where your finger is)

   These are MS-DOS compatible (not IBM compatible though).


>
>HP 45500A (this is a _really_ funky looking terminal or workstation of some
>sort - it looks like the top half of the original "space wars" game - or
>like it came from the set of Space 1999...)
>
>Misc: 
>
>HP98550 card 

   Video card for the HP 9000 200 and 300 series computers.


>HP340 Human Interface Card (qty 4)
>HP HIL tablets (A-size digitizer)
>HP35741A monitor (qty 2)
>
>HPIB cables (about 50)
>
>Aydin 1986 vintage color monitor (RGB&composite sync)
>
>Televideo TS1608
>
>IBM original XT with hard drive (believed to be working)
>
>lots of HP backup tapes (the ones half the size of a cigar box)
>
>miscellaneous HP books
>
>Your cost on any of these would be shipping plus packing at Mailboxes,
>Etc., plus $5 per item "earnest money"  for us to haul them from the
>basement, put them in our trailer, tote them to Mailboxes, and fill out the
>paperwork.
>
>If you're interested, let me know ASAP, as they go to the scrapper on
>Monday, 10/30/00 when the company's lease runs out.  Just trying to save
>some good, old hardware from the shredder.
>
>It's located in Lincoln, Nebraska, so if you're within driving distance this
>weekend, we can probably arrange something to save you shipping and
>handling.  If you'll haul it out of the basement for us, it's free.  (Which
>is, incidentally, the same deal the scrapper offered them... :-(
>
>
>      -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com)
>       Web Page: http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r
>       Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with 
>       Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities.
>


From ncherry at home.net  Fri Oct 27 07:07:45 2000
From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist License Question
References: <20001027052146.CJRU26316.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>
Message-ID: <39F97011.5841A96F@home.net>

So how does one order teh CD? I poked around a bit and I could find the
instructions for ordering. Heck they haven't even sent me any information
and I signed up in mid September!

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Fri Oct 27 06:38:46 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: Anderson Jacobsen ADC 300 modem
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB28C@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>

> On a recent surplus hunt, I picked up an Anderson Jacobson 
> ADC 300 baud acoustic coupler modem for $1.  What a beauty - it's
> in a wooden box with a flip-top lid and a brushed aluminum 
> interior panel.  It has two DB-25 connectors, but one is used 
> to feed *in* the AC power (!).  I haven't disassembled it yet.
> I did a quick web search and one turns up in Megan Gentry's 
> collection.  How old is this?  It's serial number 759.

Those are rather rare, in fact, it matches what I recall being
described as the first A-J model. I have a later one that'd
been through a flood and may be hosed; I paid $250 for it in
1980! It would go up to 600 baud using the Bell 202a encoding.

I learned how to whistle the carrier tone by playing with it.
I could not only whistle the carrier, but with a little 
modulation, I could get garbage to display on the screen of
a connected terminal. Kept trying to learn to whistle "Hello"
but whistling ASCII ain't whistlin' Dixie...

;-)

-dq

From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com  Fri Oct 27 08:10:58 2000
From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: Stretch
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001027074635.402f3262@mailhost.intellistar.net>
References: <8sqhvs84g7j04vcq0estnv7ahijmahkog6@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001027090905.00ae1100@popmail.voicenet.com>

While having a conversation with an old IBM buddy of mine we fondly 
remembered our days with the IBM 7030 (Stretch) computer. It was used to 
prototype the 360 before it came out. It was a real monster with only 8 
ever built (and sold). Does anybody else remember this monster?


From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com  Fri Oct 27 09:34:04 2000
From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: Stretch
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001027090905.00ae1100@popmail.voicenet.com>
Message-ID: <000601c04022$f5461350$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>


Re: 7030

I read a nice book on it once, by a person named 
something like Bucholtz.  Very clear concise 
description.  (This may have been for the 7010?)
IBM attempted the same clear writing style when
introducing the RS/6000, another good book to have.

John A.

From b.layer at vikingelectronics.com  Fri Oct 27 10:04:53 2000
From: b.layer at vikingelectronics.com (Bill Layer)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: Chromatics floppy found
Message-ID: <00102710110401.00270@Billbob_linux>

Picked up a Chromatics 8" floppy disk drive yesterday for $1.95. 

Model FD-1000 ser# 001053

Comes in a big, brown aluminum case with a couple of DB style connectors on
the back. Any idea to which type of hardware this drive is peripheral? Was it
worth the haul?

-- 
Bill Layer
Sales Technician
<b.layer@vikingelectronics.com>

+----------------------------------+
     Viking Electronics, Inc.
       1531 Industrial St.
    Hudson, WI. 54016 - U.S.A
      715.386.8861 ext. 210
 <http://www.vikingelectronics.com>
+----------------------------------+

"Telecom Solutions for the 21st Century"
    Powered by Slackware Linux 7.1.0
 

From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Fri Oct 27 10:21:09 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: Was it 110, 135, then 300?
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB290@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>

You left out 75 baud...

And IIRC, didn't the IBM 2741 teleprinter use something like
147.5 baud?

-dq

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Ford [mailto:mikeford@socal.rr.com]
> Sent: Friday, October 27, 2000 2:03 AM
> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org
> Subject: Was it 110, 135, then 300?
> 
> 
> What was the progression in modems? Was it 110, 135, then 
> 300, or were the
> first two speeds pre modem technology?
> 
> 

From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Fri Oct 27 10:43:39 2000
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #408
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010252231400.26366-100000@siconic.com>
References: <39F7A32D.FEBEE10A@jps.net>
Message-ID: <39F9BECB.1811.24C3D448@localhost>

> On Wed, 25 Oct 2000, Larry Anderson wrote:
> > > These guys have upgraded the Color Classic to Power
> > > Mac G3 CPUs and lots of bells and whistles.

> > Hey, Sam!  Hot Rodded Classics?  Best speed, or best flame paint job?  ;>

> I don't know.  That kinda goes against the whole preservation thing.  I
> think it's fine for modern day machines.  In the very least, personalizing
> your computer's paint job will give it much needed character (unless it's
> a Mac :)

Well, I personaly realy like to get my hands on soopered machines.
A ZX81 in Wonderbra configuration (harddrive, 512K Mem, etc. pp)
_is_ a real highlight. Of course preservation of 'pure' machines
is a must (and keeping the spirit in preserving average work
configuration), but such ubercomputer beasts (like a C64 with
more drillholes for switches than a 1920 switchboard and a
second C64 case just for add on boards, or a Spectrum in C=610
case, or an Atari Lighthouse) are true monuments what dedication
ment during the haydays of micro computing. If I had to decide
between lets say a ZX81 with hard drive and an Apple one, if may
be a tough one.

Gruss
H.

--
VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen
http://www.vintage.org/vcfe
http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

From jhellige at earthlink.net  Fri Oct 27 11:24:09 2000
From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #408
In-Reply-To: <39F9BECB.1811.24C3D448@localhost>
References: <39F7A32D.FEBEE10A@jps.net> <39F9BECB.1811.24C3D448@localhost>
Message-ID: <a05001901b61f5b6d8442@[168.191.215.208]>

	Then you've got the S-100 bus systems of the mid-late 70's 
where nearly every single one of them was modified to some extent or 
another just due to the fact that it was something that needed to be 
done to get any kind of functionality out of it.  Both my homebuilt 
S-100 machine and my SWTPc 6809 were added to over the years. 
Sometimes 'hot rodding' was just the nature of the beast and an 
everyday part of being a computer hobbyist at the time.  I don't feel 
that period modifications are any less valid a configuration than a 
fresh factory machine and sometimes even more desirable because of 
how unique they can be.

	Jeff

>
>Well, I personaly realy like to get my hands on soopered machines.
>A ZX81 in Wonderbra configuration (harddrive, 512K Mem, etc. pp)
>_is_ a real highlight. Of course preservation of 'pure' machines
>is a must (and keeping the spirit in preserving average work
>configuration), but such ubercomputer beasts (like a C64 with
>more drillholes for switches than a 1920 switchboard and a
>second C64 case just for add on boards, or a Spectrum in C=610
>case, or an Atari Lighthouse) are true monuments what dedication
>ment during the haydays of micro computing. If I had to decide
>between lets say a ZX81 with hard drive and an Apple one, if may
>be a tough one.
-- 
            Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4
        Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems:
                 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Fri Oct 27 11:40:32 2000
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: H-89....
In-Reply-To: <a05001901b61f5b6d8442@[168.191.215.208]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010270938200.11185-100000@war.deltasoft.com>

I'm going to be getting an H89 in the next week or so, and I'm considering
putting all the manuals online as PDF files.  Is there any interest in
this?  All the searching I've done on the net for H-8/11/88/89 info has
turned up a pitiful lack of info.  If you've got anything you'd like to
see on a dedicated Heathkit computer page, please let me know.

g.




From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com  Fri Oct 27 12:08:39 2000
From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: Stretch
In-Reply-To: <000601c04022$f5461350$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001027090905.00ae1100@popmail.voicenet.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001027130506.00adb6e0@popmail.voicenet.com>

At 10:34 AM 10/27/00 -0400, you wrote:
>Very clear concise
>description.  (This may have been for the 7010?)

The 7010 was a much, much smaller computer. A relative of the 1410 and a 
commercial machine. The 7030 was the largest of machines at the time and 
took up a full room that must (from memory) been 2000 square feet. We used 
a 1401 to create input tapes and print output tapes for it. The largest IBM 
machine that was sold in quantity at the time was the 7094-II.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

gene@ehrich.com
gehrich@tampabay.rr.com
P.O. Box 3365   Spring Hill Florida   34611-3365

http://www.voicenet.com/~generic
Computer & Video Game Garage Sale






From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Fri Oct 27 12:19:12 2000
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #408
In-Reply-To: <a05001901b61f5b6d8442@[168.191.215.208]>
References: <39F9BECB.1811.24C3D448@localhost>
Message-ID: <39F9D530.25945.251B4BA4@localhost>

> >Well, I personaly realy like to get my hands on soopered machines.
> >A ZX81 in Wonderbra configuration (harddrive, 512K Mem, etc. pp)
> >_is_ a real highlight. Of course preservation of 'pure' machines
> >is a must (and keeping the spirit in preserving average work
> >configuration), but such ubercomputer beasts (like a C64 with
> >more drillholes for switches than a 1920 switchboard and a
> >second C64 case just for add on boards, or a Spectrum in C=610
> >case, or an Atari Lighthouse) are true monuments what dedication
> >ment during the haydays of micro computing. If I had to decide
> >between lets say a ZX81 with hard drive and an Apple one, if may
> >be a tough one.

> 	Then you've got the S-100 bus systems of the mid-late 70's 
> where nearly every single one of them was modified to some extent or 
> another just due to the fact that it was something that needed to be 
> done to get any kind of functionality out of it.  Both my homebuilt 
> S-100 machine and my SWTPc 6809 were added to over the years. 
> Sometimes 'hot rodding' was just the nature of the beast and an 
> everyday part of being a computer hobbyist at the time.  I don't feel 
> that period modifications are any less valid a configuration than a 
> fresh factory machine and sometimes even more desirable because of 
> how unique they can be.

well, basicly yes - only I wouldn't considere most S100 systems,
even when modified later, in this category. They are supposed to
be expanded. Like a PC with more or less add on boards isn't very
intrigueing. When stretching the similarities, a S100 is more
like a kit car - interesting but nothing unique - and not hot
rodded - otherwise even my actual Athlon system would be a hod
rod, since I did only buy the parts (as always).

It isn't so much about custom configurated, but rather custom
made - there is no ZX 81 HD controller at all, it has to be done
by some very odd kind of high tech geek - you invest more money
and time to get a sub standard solution for a way outdated system
than you may have to pay for something new, several times better.

Gruss
H.

P.S.: I'm not argueing about your systems - they may still
      qualitfy by my criterias.

--
VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen
http://www.vintage.org/vcfe
http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

From foo at siconic.com  Fri Oct 27 11:18:17 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: Was it 110, 135, then 300?
In-Reply-To: <l03102800b61eca842fde@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010270917220.29364-100000@siconic.com>

On Thu, 26 Oct 2000, Mike Ford wrote:

> What was the progression in modems? Was it 110, 135, then 300, or were the
> first two speeds pre modem technology?

Never heard of 135.  What about 50 baud?

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Oct 27 12:19:21 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: Was it 110, 135, then 300?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010270917220.29364-100000@siconic.com> from "Sellam Ismail" at Oct 27, 0 09:18:17 am
Message-ID: <m13pDA3-000IyHC@p850ug1>

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From go at ao.com  Fri Oct 27 12:52:03 2000
From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: Stretch
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001027090905.00ae1100@popmail.voicenet.com>
References: <3.0.1.16.20001027074635.402f3262@mailhost.intellistar.net>
 <8sqhvs84g7j04vcq0estnv7ahijmahkog6@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001027103402.044bf430@wave-rock.ao.com>

While a student at Oregon State University (way back around early to mid 70s)
we managed to obtain one of the beasts (well most of it anyway.)  At the
time we were running a CDC 3300 (memory starved) and the hardware group didn't
want to pay CDC the 1e6 bucks necessary to fully populate the memory of the
3300.

The HW manager (an efficient scrounger if there ever was) found this 7030
(unfortunately I don't recall where it came from - rumor was LANL but I'm
not sure.)  He concluded that we could hang the 6 memory boxes (36 x 32k
or 72 x 16k depending on "interface") onto the 3300.

Well that didn't pan out - but a group I was involved in *did* benefit from
this choice.  We were running a small, home brew computer (Nebula) which
at the time used glass delay lines as memory (slow) and only had 4k x 35
bits of memory.  We grabbed one of the memories and built a controller
and connected it to the Nebula.  Worked great and boosted the speed of the
machine all the way to a whopping 33 usec per word time (it *was* 100 usec
word time!)

The memory interface was actually rather nice - totally asynchronous if I
recall, so the interface was mostly an issue of converting the parallel
stretch memory (with negative logic levels) to the serial bus (did I mention
that Nebula was a serial computer?) with TTL/DTL levels.  Basically a giant
shift register.  DMA was a little bit hairier, but it all fit in a single
19 inch rack card frame with about 20 44-pin "vector" cards.  Mostly TTL
with some special negative-bus level converters on a few cards.  I still
have a copy of the paper the designer wrote as a class project.

We were able to accomplish this partly because we had another computer with
a HUGE motor generator and the stretch memory needs a bunch of supplies
which we borrowed from this other machine.  A power sequencer was built that
brought up the major bus voltages of the stretch memory *slowly* (motor
driven variac with a relay logic controller.)  We built the relay logic from
(appropriately enough) IBM relays we glommed from an old accounting
machine card reader (sorry for the reckless disregard for antique equipment,
but it was the 70s...)

Fortunately, IBM was quite helpful with hardware docs for the machine.  What
didn't come with the "donation" of the hardware was obtained from IBM
directly.  We had it all (about 200 pounds of prints if I recall.)  I just
wish it had been salvaged when the lab was torn down.  I heard about the
discard to late.  OSU had a (bad) habit of discarding ALL paper when a
piece of equipment was sold at surplus.  I've had countless discussions
with the surplus management at the time about this and today they are
a little bit better in this regard.

The stretch was a fantastic piece of hardware for it's time.  We learned
a lot about computers architecture tearing apart the memory design.

Pity I don't have pictures.  It was a glorious mess of home-brew stuff.

-Gary

At 09:10 10/27/00 -0400, you wrote:
>While having a conversation with an old IBM buddy of mine we fondly 
>remembered our days with the IBM 7030 (Stretch) computer. It was used to 
>prototype the 360 before it came out. It was a real monster with only 8 
>ever built (and sold). Does anybody else remember this monster?


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Fri Oct 27 13:01:27 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist License Question
In-Reply-To: <20001026235556.A2493@loomcom.com>
References: 
 <20001027052146.CJRU26316.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>; from
 THETechnoid@home.com on Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 01:24:19AM -0400
 <200010270457.VAA01723@shell1.aracnet.com>
 <20001027052146.CJRU26316.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>
Message-ID: <v04020a00b61f7168b919@[192.168.1.5]>

>the system.  For a VAX, you will need to load the VAX-VMS license PAK.

Argghh!  Good point :^)  You can tell where my mind has been telling him he
OPENVMS-ALPHA <smacks self on forehead>.  What can I say I was looking at
the output of "SHO LICE" on the system I was working on.

>If you DON'T have a terminal, you're not completely out of luck.  Damn,
>I don't remember exactly how to do this, but you can do a conversational
>boot (which is done with a flag of /1 I think, so you'd do something like
>
> >>> B/1 DUA0
> [or whatever your system disk is]
>
>Then you'll find yourself at the SYSBOOT> prompt.  Issue the commands
>
> SYSBOOT> SET/STARTUP OPA0:
> SYSBOOT> SET WINDOW_SYSTEM 0
> SYSBOOT> CONTINUE
>
>The system should continue to start up without DECwindows.  Log in as
>SYSTEM and load your licenses.  Finally type

Looks good so far.  The FAQ shows the following (not sure if the
WRITESYSPARAMS is needed):

SYSBOOT> SET/STARTUP OPA0:
SYSBOOT> SET WINDOW_SYSTEM 0
SYSBOOT> SET WRITESYSPARAMS 0
SYSBOOT> CONTINUE

and you'll then need to run the following two commands:
SPAWN
@SYS$SYSTEM:STARTUP

For a complete explanation see: http://eisner.decus.org/vms/mgmt.htm#MGMT5

Then as you say:
$ @SYS$UPDATE:VMSLICENSE

> $ RUN SYS$SYSTEM:SYSGEN
>
>to get to the SYSGEN> prompt.  At the SYSGEN> prompt, type:
>
> SYSGEN> USE CURRENT
> SYSGEN> SET WINDOW_SYSTEM 1
> SYSGEN> WRITE CURRENT
> SYSGEN> EXIT
>
>And then reboot.  I _think_ this will work, but I'm not 100% certain,
>as it's been a while since I did any of this stuff!

I don't think this part is needed as I believe the changes made at the
SYSBOOT prompt are for that boot only.

				Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|                 http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/              |

From healyzh at aracnet.com  Fri Oct 27 13:03:22 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist License Question
In-Reply-To: <39F97011.5841A96F@home.net>
References: 
 <20001027052146.CJRU26316.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>
Message-ID: <v04020a02b61f73a64025@[192.168.1.5]>

>So how does one order teh CD? I poked around a bit and I could find the
>instructions for ordering. Heck they haven't even sent me any information
>and I signed up in mid September!

http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/mount.html

I ordered both online the day V2 became available, got them shortly thereafter.

				Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|                 http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/              |

From eric at brouhaha.com  Fri Oct 27 13:19:33 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: Was it 110, 135, then 300?
In-Reply-To: <l03102800b61eca842fde@[192.168.1.4]> (message from Mike Ford on
	Thu, 26 Oct 2000 22:02:47 -0800)
References: <39F8C32D.4F60994B@gorge.net> "from Jim Davis at Oct 26, 2000
 04:50:05 pm" <l03102800b61eca842fde@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <20001027181933.1805.qmail@brouhaha.com>

> What was the progression in modems? Was it 110, 135, then 300, or were the
> first two speeds pre modem technology?

Bell 103 type modems used FSK, so they were rated for full duplex operation
at any bit rate from 0 to 300 bps.  In practice you could usually get
450 bps from them.  I've heard talk of 600 bps, but never observed it
to work reliably.  110 and 134.5 bps were common because of the use
of Teletypes and IBM 2741 terminals.

Bell 202 type modems used FSK for up to 1200 bps half duplex.  There
was provision for a much lower rate back channel, around 75 bps IIRC.

At 1200 bps full duplex and higher, FSK is not usable.  The modulation
techniques got much more complex, starting with PSK (phase shift keying)
then QAM (quadrature amplitude modulation).  With PSK and QAM modems,
you can't send arbitrary bit rates as with FSK.  You pretty much *have*
to send the bits when the modem wants them.  The modulation is fundamentally
synchronous, so what actually goes across the wire is async framing over
a sync carrier, which is sometimes called isochronous.  Don't get me
started on the hairy details of speed matching, which involves stop bit
shaving, and in some cases stop bit deletion and reinsertion.  It's a
mess.  Be glad that your sub-$100 modem takes care of all this nastiness
for you.

At 1200 bps full duplex, there were two standards as well as a proprietary
scheme.  Bell 212 used PSK, CCITT V.22 used QAM (IIRC), and I have no idea
what the Vadic 3400 used.

PSK is not *too* difficult to implement in the analog domain, but QAM
is pretty tricky.  By the mid-1980s most QAM modems were implemented
digitally (although many still used an analog bandsplit filter before
the ADC).

>From 1200 bps to V.34bis (or do they have V.34ter now), almost all modems
used QAM with increasingly complex constellations.  The 56K modems use
entirely different techniques.

Eric

From eric at brouhaha.com  Fri Oct 27 13:24:05 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: Stretch
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001027090905.00ae1100@popmail.voicenet.com> (message
	from Gene Ehrich on Fri, 27 Oct 2000 09:10:58 -0400)
References: <8sqhvs84g7j04vcq0estnv7ahijmahkog6@4ax.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20001027090905.00ae1100@popmail.voicenet.com>
Message-ID: <20001027182405.1879.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Gene Ehrich <gehrich@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> While having a conversation with an old IBM buddy of mine we fondly 
> remembered our days with the IBM 7030 (Stretch) computer. It was used to 
> prototype the 360 before it came out. It was a real monster with only 8 
> ever built (and sold). Does anybody else remember this monster?

Not from personal experience.  But I have a web page about it:

	http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/ibm/stretch/

The Computer Museum History Center has one almost-complete 7030 system
from Livermore.  They don't have much in the way of documentation.
If anyone has anything they can either donate to the museum or make
available for copying, please let me know.

In particular, it would be nice if they could get the theory-of-operation
manual (which apparently consisted of at least nine volumes) and a print
set.

From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us  Fri Oct 27 13:28:43 2000
From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist License Question
In-Reply-To: <v04020a02b61f73a64025@[192.168.1.5]>
References: 
  <20001027052146.CJRU26316.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>
 <v04020a02b61f73a64025@[192.168.1.5]>
Message-ID: <v04210100b61f79b0f2a7@[157.178.130.128]>

I've been waiting weeks and weeks to get a decus membership #...are they
still functional?  (Since I can't order a cd without a membership #..and
membership is free, but takes a LONG time....sigh..what a way to run a
railroad).

-Bob


> >So how does one order teh CD? I poked around a bit and I could find the
> >instructions for ordering. Heck they haven't even sent me any information
> >and I signed up in mid September!
>
>http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/mount.html
>
>I ordered both online the day V2 became available, got them shortly 
>thereafter.
>
>				Zane
>| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
>| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
>| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
>+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
>|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
>|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
>|                 http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/              |

Bob Brown
Saved by grace
Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown

From sethm at loomcom.com  Fri Oct 27 13:37:26 2000
From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist License Question
In-Reply-To: <v04020a00b61f7168b919@[192.168.1.5]>; from healyzh@aracnet.com on Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 11:01:27AM -0700
References: <20001027052146.CJRU26316.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>; <200010270457.VAA01723@shell1.aracnet.com> <20001027052146.CJRU26316.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> <20001026235556.A2493@loomcom.com> <v04020a00b61f7168b919@[192.168.1.5]>
Message-ID: <20001027113726.A1153@loomcom.com>

On Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 11:01:27AM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote:
> > SYSGEN> USE CURRENT
> > SYSGEN> SET WINDOW_SYSTEM 1
> > SYSGEN> WRITE CURRENT
> > SYSGEN> EXIT
[...]
> I don't think this part is needed as I believe the changes made at the
> SYSBOOT prompt are for that boot only.

Ah, you're right.  These are two different ways  of doing the same
thing, though yours is probably cleaner!  Doing "SET WRITESYSPARAMS 0"
means "Don't save these changes between boots", so he can just
enter his licences and reboot without needing to run a second SYSGEN
afterward.

>	Zane

-Seth

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Oct 27 12:33:01 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: Was it 110, 135, then 300?
In-Reply-To: <l03102800b61eca842fde@[192.168.1.4]> from "Mike Ford" at Oct 26, 0 10:02:47 pm
Message-ID: <m13pDNJ-000IyHC@p850ug1>

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Oct 27 12:41:20 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: Was it 110, 135, then 300?
In-Reply-To: <200010270958.CAA06372@eskimo.com> from "Derek Peschel" at Oct 27, 0 02:58:12 am
Message-ID: <m13pDVL-000IyNC@p850ug1>

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From sethm at loomcom.com  Fri Oct 27 14:16:41 2000
From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist License Question
In-Reply-To: <v04210100b61f79b0f2a7@[157.178.130.128]>; from bbrown@harper.cc.il.us on Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 01:28:43PM -0500
References: <20001027052146.CJRU26316.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> <v04020a02b61f73a64025@[192.168.1.5]> <v04210100b61f79b0f2a7@[157.178.130.128]>
Message-ID: <20001027121641.A1258@loomcom.com>

On Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 01:28:43PM -0500, Bob Brown wrote:
> I've been waiting weeks and weeks to get a decus membership #...are they
> still functional?  (Since I can't order a cd without a membership #..and
> membership is free, but takes a LONG time....sigh..what a way to run a
> railroad).
> 
> -Bob

Wow, that's not cool.  The last time I renewed my DECUS membership they
were very very fast.

Oh my.  I just went to the DECUS website to find "Encompass -- A Compaq
Users Group".  I don't read everything DECUS sends me, but I have no
idea how I could have missed this.

I'd say give them another try, they may have lost your application in
the shuffle to rebrand themselves for their new corporate Uber-Being.
Go to http://www.decus.org/encompass/Membership/member-info.shtml
and apply again, you should have a membership number in a few days.
I hope.

-Seth

From vcf at siconic.com  Fri Oct 27 13:10:28 2000
From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: GTE Discrete Modem
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010271105510.29607-100000@siconic.com>


Here are some pictures of the modem I mentioned yesterday.  It is GTE
labelled but was apparently manufactured by Sangamo Electric in West
Union, South Carolina.

http://www.siconic.com/crap/GTE_Discrete_Modem.jpg
http://www.siconic.com/crap/GTE_Discrete_Modem_Front.jpg
http://www.siconic.com/crap/GTE_Discrete_Modem_Label.jpg
http://www.siconic.com/crap/GTE_Discrete_Modem_Rack.jpg
http://www.siconic.com/crap/GTE_Discrete_Modem_Carrier_Detect_Card.jpg
http://www.siconic.com/crap/GTE_Discrete_Modem_Receiver_Card.jpg
http://www.siconic.com/crap/GTE_Discrete_Modem_Transmitter_Card.jpg

It's about 9"x17"x5" and weighs maybe 20 pounds.

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From jruschme at mac.com  Fri Oct 27 14:36:13 2000
From: jruschme at mac.com (John Ruschmeyer)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: Looking for dead/broken Newton
Message-ID: <a05001901b61f888c4fd3@[24.18.101.200]>

All,

I recently obtained a Newton MessagePad 120; unfortunately, it has 
the older 1.3 OS installed. Needless to say, I'd like to find a copy 
of the 2.0 ROMS.

By any chance, would one of you have a dead or broken Newton 120 or 
130 (NOS 2.0) with which you are willing to part?

Thanks...

<<<john>>>
-- 
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>mac.com</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
-- <BR>
John Ruschmeyer <BR>
jruschme@mac.com
</BODY>
</HTML>

From gregorym at cadvision.com  Fri Oct 27 14:38:17 2000
From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: GTE Discrete Modem
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010271105510.29607-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <013301c0404d$74a4f100$0200a8c0@marvin>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Vintage Computer Festival" <vcf@siconic.com>
To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2000 12:10 PM
Subject: GTE Discrete Modem
>
> Here are some pictures of the modem I mentioned yesterday.  It is GTE
> labelled but was apparently manufactured by Sangamo Electric in West
> Union, South Carolina.

< picture URLs snipped >

> It's about 9"x17"x5" and weighs maybe 20 pounds.

Looking at the cards in the rack, it seems that the cards (and thus the
whole modem) are bigger than they need to be. The traces and components are
pretty far apart (the trace pattern is groovy though). Why is this? Were
the boards hand built, and the greater clearances made them easier to
solder together? Was the box a standard 19" rack size, so there was no
point making the cards smaller than the box? Was it a cooling issue? I'm
pretty ignorant of the practices and design issues in the industry at this
time.

Regards,
Mark.


From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com  Fri Oct 27 15:16:00 2000
From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: Details of old HP Stuff Available (act now!)
Message-ID: <F1197kb6uS0WFJyXde200003396@hotmail.com>

The HP 45500A is AKA the HP 125, a CP/M machine, they look like 2621's..

Will J
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.


From foo at siconic.com  Fri Oct 27 14:16:50 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: Looking for dead/broken Newton
In-Reply-To: <a05001901b61f888c4fd3@[24.18.101.200]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010271216290.29760-100000@siconic.com>

On Fri, 27 Oct 2000, John Ruschmeyer wrote:

> -- 
> <HTML>
> <HEAD>
> <TITLE>mac.com</TITLE>
> </HEAD>
> <BODY>
> -- <BR>
> John Ruschmeyer <BR>
> jruschme@mac.com
> </BODY>
> </HTML>

Is this really necessary??????????????????????????????????????????????????

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Fri Oct 27 15:23:10 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist License Question
In-Reply-To: <20001027121641.A1258@loomcom.com> from "Seth J. Morabito" at Oct 27, 2000 12:16:41 PM
Message-ID: <200010272023.NAA28968@shell1.aracnet.com>

> On Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 01:28:43PM -0500, Bob Brown wrote:
> > I've been waiting weeks and weeks to get a decus membership #...are they
> > still functional?  (Since I can't order a cd without a membership #..and
> > membership is free, but takes a LONG time....sigh..what a way to run a
> > railroad).
> > 
> > -Bob
> 
> Wow, that's not cool.  The last time I renewed my DECUS membership they
> were very very fast.

Actually I've not renewed my free membership and it lapesed about a year
ago.  I'm still able to use my membership number for stuff though.

I know someone that has been waiting on thier membership for a while now and
they just finally got it a couple days ago.  Not sure how long he'd been
waiting though.

> Oh my.  I just went to the DECUS website to find "Encompass -- A Compaq
> Users Group".  I don't read everything DECUS sends me, but I have no
> idea how I could have missed this.
> 
> I'd say give them another try, they may have lost your application in
> the shuffle to rebrand themselves for their new corporate Uber-Being.
> Go to http://www.decus.org/encompass/Membership/member-info.shtml
> and apply again, you should have a membership number in a few days.
> I hope.

Yeah, DECUS was about to cease to exist for some reason unless they reformed
themselves as a new organization.  They had a vote of the members and the
reorg was denied.  The board then called an emergency meeting and used some
loophole to do this without the memberships permission.  There has been a
lot on USENET about this in recent months, the actual change occured a few
weeks ago.

				Zane

From elvey at hal.com  Fri Oct 27 16:05:35 2000
From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: H-89....
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010270938200.11185-100000@war.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <200010272105.OAA25065@civic.hal.com>

Gene Buckle <geneb@deltasoft.com> wrote:
> I'm going to be getting an H89 in the next week or so, and I'm considering
> putting all the manuals online as PDF files.  Is there any interest in
> this?  All the searching I've done on the net for H-8/11/88/89 info has
> turned up a pitiful lack of info.  If you've got anything you'd like to
> see on a dedicated Heathkit computer page, please let me know.
> 
> g.
> 
> 

Hi Gene
 Sound good to me. Go for it.
Dwight


From richard at idcomm.com  Fri Oct 27 16:08:21 2000
From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: Was it 110, 135, then 300?
References: <39F8C32D.4F60994B@gorge.net> "from Jim Davis at Oct 26, 200004:50:05 pm" <l03102800b61eca842fde@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <002c01c0405a$0a1d4aa0$0100a8c0@winbook>

Mustn't forget 75 and 150, which were at the low end of teletypes and other
equipment I had back in the '70's.  The old baudot terminal was run at 55 or
63, wasn't it?  I didn't own one of those, but had a setting of 75 on a
couple of old printing terminals that I bought for the parts.  One of them
had a Novation modem board in it, thatI handled just a day or two ago.  It
worked with a built-in acoustic coupler and could be set for 110, 150, or
300.  It could even print fast enough to keep up with 300!

Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Ford <mikeford@socal.rr.com>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2000 12:02 AM
Subject: Was it 110, 135, then 300?


> What was the progression in modems? Was it 110, 135, then 300, or were the
> first two speeds pre modem technology?
>
>
>


From mrbill at mrbill.net  Fri Oct 27 16:28:46 2000
From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist License Question
In-Reply-To: <200010272023.NAA28968@shell1.aracnet.com>; from healyzh@aracnet.com on Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 01:23:10PM -0700
References: <20001027121641.A1258@loomcom.com> <200010272023.NAA28968@shell1.aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <20001027162846.X18115@mrbill.net>

On Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 01:23:10PM -0700, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote:
> Yeah, DECUS was about to cease to exist for some reason unless they reformed
> themselves as a new organization.  They had a vote of the members and the
> reorg was denied.  The board then called an emergency meeting and used some
> loophole to do this without the memberships permission.  There has been a
> lot on USENET about this in recent months, the actual change occured a few
> weeks ago.
> 				Zane

Basically the gist of it was, they needed to form an actual corporation
for legal reasons - like they'd lost about $600K on some trade show from
a company that didnt pay them, and since DECUS wasnt a "recognized" legal
entity, they couldnt sue to get the money - so they reorganized into 
encompass, which is a legal corporation or somesuch.

-- 
Bill Bradford
mrbill@mrbill.net
Austin, TX

From ncherry at home.net  Fri Oct 27 16:46:38 2000
From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:14 2005
Subject: Was it 110, 135, then 300?
References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB290@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>
Message-ID: <39F9F7BE.DB844AC0@home.net>

Douglas Quebbeman wrote:
> 
> You left out 75 baud...
> 
> And IIRC, didn't the IBM 2741 teleprinter use something like
> 147.5 baud?

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mike Ford [mailto:mikeford@socal.rr.com]

> > What was the progression in modems? Was it 110, 135, then
> > 300, or were the
> > first two speeds pre modem technology?

You also left out 28.x or was it 27.x), 34.5, and 2 different rates in
the 50's. Sorry I went through my asm code and couldn't find the references
to the speeds. The 6551 started at 50 and went up but I think we got the
oddball rates using external clocking. The newspaper industry used these
rates. A 1918 motorized Underwood typewritter would use dry loop and the
28.x/27.x rate. It was still supported in the mid 80's when it was retired
when no new parts were available.

BTW all of these rate (less than & equal to 300) used Bell 103 when
communicating via a modem.

Reminds me of the time we played with a printing machine designed in the
1940's. Used a centronics like parallel interface but +/- 25 volts, weird
timing for the pulses and smelled of vinegar!

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

From ncherry at home.net  Fri Oct 27 16:55:37 2000
From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist License Question
References: <20001027052146.CJRU26316.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> <v04020a02b61f73a64025@[192.168.1.5]>
Message-ID: <39F9F9D9.880DA72@home.net>

"Zane H. Healy" wrote:
> 
> >So how does one order teh CD? I poked around a bit and I could find the
> >instructions for ordering. Heck they haven't even sent me any information
> >and I signed up in mid September!
> 
> http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/mount.html
> 
> I ordered both online the day V2 became available, got them shortly thereafter.

You can't see it but I'm doing a 'Snoopy dance for joy' right now. :-)

I won't be able to order until next Wednesday (budget) but I will order
that day!

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Fri Oct 27 18:05:19 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: Tango Schematic capture, PCB layout and autorouting programs
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001027180519.34778660@mailhost.intellistar.net>

   I was in a library book sale store yesterday and found the complete
packages for Tango Schematic (schematic capture program), Tango Route Plus
(autorouting program) and Tango PCB Plus (PCB layout program). These date
from about 1991. Has anyone used them? Are they any good?

   I was out of money so I went back early today to pick them but someone
had taken the Tango Schematic. The funny thing is that all three were in a
box together and they didn't take the other two. What's nore, they require
a dongle and the dongle was in the Tango Route package so they can't even
run the Schematic program.   I went ahead and got the other two programs.
Has anyone got a copy of Tango Schematic that they're willing to part with?

  Why was I out of money? Because they also had "Bit-Slice Design:
Controllers and ALUs" by White and "Bit-Slice Microprocessor Design" by
Mick and Brick and some other GOOD books and I spent my money on those
first. FWIW both of these bit slice books are VERY good and very easy to
understand. I highly recommend them.

  One of my other COOL finds there was a September 1977 issue of Scientific
American. It's filled with articles about microelectronics (almost
completely computers). There's also a LOT of ads from the various S-100
computer manufactures. BUT the coolest thing in it is an article
(Microelectronics and the Personal Computer) by Alan Kay. Alan was one of
the guiding lights at XEROX PARC.  This article has a pile of pictures and
information about XEROX's then experimental graphical computers. It even
mentions a new pointing device called a mouse. Does anyone know what that
might be? :-)

    Joe


From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com  Fri Oct 27 17:23:39 2000
From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: pdp11
In-Reply-To: <39F8A857.FB503579@rivermen.se>
References: <39EB00B0.26035BD7@groton.pfizer.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001027152256.01e85b40@208.226.86.10>

I'm still waiting for the :
         "Yes its available, its at this URL (ebay URL included)"
message. Haven't seen it yet :-)
--Chuck

At 02:55 PM 10/26/00 -0700, you wrote:
>Hi Carter,
>
>Is the machine still available? Where is it located?
>
>I am in California.
>
>Mike
>
>
>carter courtney wrote:
>
> > Hi:
> > My company has a working pdp11 with disk drives and interface boards. It
> > is now moving offline and to the disposition process. I believe that it
> > will be moved to the trash unless someone will take it. We can not
> > assume any responsibility for transportation but would be glad ot donate
> > the pdp to a good cause.
> >
> > carter courtney



From pe.bosboom at hccnet.nl  Fri Oct 27 17:42:43 2000
From: pe.bosboom at hccnet.nl (Paul E.Bosboom)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: RCA Cosmac Dev. System IV update
Message-ID: <NEBBJIPHELHNCHFBOAEGMEEICAAA.pe.bosboom@hccnet.nl>


I just read your question about looking for software , spec CDOS, for the
cosmac. Well I own a cosmac since 1983
but it's standing in the corner for a long time now. I have to gear up the
poor thing and see if I can make a copy of the old
floppy's. There are also a set of different cosmac cards and the cosmac ICE
in a separate suitcase even all documentation and schematics are complete as
far as I know.  If I can help or If anyone wants to buy the whole system.
Send me a proposal.

Paul: pe.bosboom@hccnet.nl

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From healyzh at aracnet.com  Fri Oct 27 17:41:09 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist License Question
In-Reply-To: <39F9F9D9.880DA72@home.net> from "Neil Cherry" at Oct 27, 2000 05:55:37 PM
Message-ID: <200010272241.PAA06347@shell1.aracnet.com>

Neil Cherry wrote:
> > http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/mount.html
> > 
> > I ordered both online the day V2 became available, got them shortly thereafter.
> 
> You can't see it but I'm doing a 'Snoopy dance for joy' right now. :-)
> 
> I won't be able to order until next Wednesday (budget) but I will order
> that day!

I'm guessing you're after the VAX Hobbyist CD.  I personally think it's
better than the Alpha one (what can I say I'm interested in BASIC not what
they substituted for it on the Alpha CD).  One thing you'll still want to
keep your eye out for is a Software Product Library set on CD-ROMs.  They show 
up on eBay from time to time and can fetch anywhere from $9.99 to about 
$200.00.

			Zane

From lemay at cs.umn.edu  Fri Oct 27 17:42:03 2000
From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: Was it 110, 135, then 300?
In-Reply-To: <l03102800b61eca842fde@[192.168.1.4]> "from Mike Ford at Oct 26,
 2000 10:02:47 pm"
Message-ID: <200010272242.RAA26773@caesar.cs.umn.edu>

My CDC Plato terminal supports these rates:

  If receiving at 1200: 75, 120, 150, 600, 1200

  If receiving at 1260: 78.2, 126, 157.5, 630, 1260

Also, my International Data Sciences, Modem Test Set supports the
following data rates: 75, 110, 134.5, 150, 300, 600, 1200, 1800, 2400,
  4800, 9600. ALso, stop bits can be either 1, 1.4, or 2. This is a
1980's device, with Nixie tube display.

-Lawrence LeMay

> What was the progression in modems? Was it 110, 135, then 300, or were the
> first two speeds pre modem technology?
> 
> 


From donm at cts.com  Fri Oct 27 18:01:22 2000
From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: Tango Schematic capture, PCB layout and autorouting programs
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001027180519.34778660@mailhost.intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SCO.4.20.0010271555440.13712-100000@crash.cts.com>



On Fri, 27 Oct 2000, Joe wrote:

>    I was in a library book sale store yesterday and found the complete
> packages for Tango Schematic (schematic capture program), Tango Route Plus
> (autorouting program) and Tango PCB Plus (PCB layout program). These date
> from about 1991. Has anyone used them? Are they any good?

At June of 1992 pricing, that is about $2600 worth of software.  They
are a San Diego company and are still in business according to the phone
book.  
						 - don
 
>    I was out of money so I went back early today to pick them but someone
> had taken the Tango Schematic. The funny thing is that all three were in a
> box together and they didn't take the other two. What's nore, they require
> a dongle and the dongle was in the Tango Route package so they can't even
> run the Schematic program.   I went ahead and got the other two programs.
> Has anyone got a copy of Tango Schematic that they're willing to part with?
> 
>   Why was I out of money? Because they also had "Bit-Slice Design:
> Controllers and ALUs" by White and "Bit-Slice Microprocessor Design" by
> Mick and Brick and some other GOOD books and I spent my money on those
> first. FWIW both of these bit slice books are VERY good and very easy to
> understand. I highly recommend them.
> 
>   One of my other COOL finds there was a September 1977 issue of Scientific
> American. It's filled with articles about microelectronics (almost
> completely computers). There's also a LOT of ads from the various S-100
> computer manufactures. BUT the coolest thing in it is an article
> (Microelectronics and the Personal Computer) by Alan Kay. Alan was one of
> the guiding lights at XEROX PARC.  This article has a pile of pictures and
> information about XEROX's then experimental graphical computers. It even
> mentions a new pointing device called a mouse. Does anyone know what that
> might be? :-)
> 
>     Joe
> 
> 


From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com  Fri Oct 27 18:06:50 2000
From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: I'm back! (and other things)
Message-ID: <F184ccYTjr8cU6xfPTe000035f7@hotmail.com>

First of all I'd just like to say a big hello to all the group members. Yes, 
I did make it through boot camp, & now I'm up in Groton for sub school.

Anyway, I was wondering if anybody had a working Apple Newton 2100 (or 
upgraded 2000) with all of the stuff it came with (dock station, CD, stylus, 
manuals, etc.) that they would be willing to let go for cheap. Can you help 
me?

Also, if the Newton has the keyboard, I don't want it, but if it has a carry 
case, I'll take it.
____________________________________________________________
David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian.
Home page: http://www.geocities.com/netsurfer_x1/

Computer Collection:

"Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, MPS-801.
"Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II.
"Delorean": TI-99/4A, TI Speech Synthesizer.
"Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable.
"Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3, Disto 512K RAM board.
"Boombox": Sharp PC-7000.
____________________________________________________________
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.


From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com  Fri Oct 27 18:23:59 2000
From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: Was it 110, 135, then 300?
Message-ID: <F1961y1gWrddIlP0PUj000037bd@hotmail.com>

OK, according to "Technical Aspects of Data Communication," John McNamara, 
Copyright 1977 by Digital Equipment Corporation, these are speeds for 
asynchronous communications (doesn't seem to have a sync table):
Five bit:
45.45
50
56.86
74.2
75
91

Six bit:
45.45
48
49.1
55.21
56.75
56.86
60.6
66.67
69.25
74.2
80
135

Seven bit:
45.45
56.75
61.35
67.34
74.2
75
76.92
100
134.5 <- IBM 1050, 2740, 2741 std. speed (selectric-based terms)
600

Eight bit:
45.45
56.75
67.58
73.33
74.07
74.1
74.2
84.61
100
110
135
150
165 Model 37 TTY for Western Union
then 300 up to 9600

For stop bits, the book lists 1, 1.42, 1.5, and 2. The difference stop bits 
are what make for such weird numbers, though some modems have even more 
bizzare rates, such as 200 (top speed of British Post Office Datel 200 
service), and 1800 (top speed of Bell 20-type modems).

Will J
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.


From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com  Fri Oct 27 19:08:55 2000
From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: I'm back! (and other things)
In-Reply-To: <F184ccYTjr8cU6xfPTe000035f7@hotmail.com>; from netsurfer_x1@hotmail.com on Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 11:06:50PM +0000
References: <F184ccYTjr8cU6xfPTe000035f7@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20001027170855.B12722@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com>

On Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 11:06:50PM +0000, David Vohs wrote:
> First of all I'd just like to say a big hello to all the group members. Yes, 
> I did make it through boot camp, & now I'm up in Groton for sub school.
> 
> Anyway, I was wondering if anybody had a working Apple Newton 2100 (or 
> upgraded 2000) with all of the stuff it came with (dock station, CD, stylus, 
> manuals, etc.) that they would be willing to let go for cheap. Can you help 
> me?

Not likely... the 2100 by itself still sells for $4-600 on ebay last
I checked.

I would also be interested, if they were affordable.  They have a 
reputation for being very innovative and I would like to steal as many
good ideas as possible for eventual incorporation into PDA versions of
the metawidget GUI system I'm building.  (Somehow _everything_ seems
related to that lately...)

I don't suppose there's a software emulator for the Newton?

-- 
  _______                   Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD  ecloud@bigfoot.com
 (_  | |_)          http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud  kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org
 __) | | \________________________________________________________________

From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Fri Oct 27 20:33:34 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: Chromatics floppy found
In-Reply-To: <00102710110401.00270@Billbob_linux>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001027203334.3a6f262a@mailhost.intellistar.net>

   Is an 8" floppy drive in an external case worth $1.95?  You betcha!
There's a surplus place here that has a bunch of Chromatics stuff with a 5
1/4" disk drive and what looks like a PC keyboard (5 pin DIN connector, etc
but marked Chromatics).  It looks like some kind of video editing equipment.

    Joe

At 10:04 AM 10/27/00 -0500, you wrote:
>Picked up a Chromatics 8" floppy disk drive yesterday for $1.95. 
>
>Model FD-1000 ser# 001053
>
>Comes in a big, brown aluminum case with a couple of DB style connectors on
>the back. Any idea to which type of hardware this drive is peripheral? Was it
>worth the haul?
>
>-- 
>Bill Layer
>Sales Technician
><b.layer@vikingelectronics.com>
>
>+----------------------------------+
>     Viking Electronics, Inc.
>       1531 Industrial St.
>    Hudson, WI. 54016 - U.S.A
>      715.386.8861 ext. 210
> <http://www.vikingelectronics.com>
>+----------------------------------+
>
>"Telecom Solutions for the 21st Century"
>    Powered by Slackware Linux 7.1.0
> 
>


From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Fri Oct 27 20:28:33 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: Details of old HP Stuff Available (act now!)
In-Reply-To: <F1197kb6uS0WFJyXde200003396@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001027202833.09c7bb86@mailhost.intellistar.net>

At 02:16 PM 10/27/00 MDT, Bill wrote:
>The HP 45500A is AKA the HP 125, a CP/M machine, they look like 2621's..

   Hey, I have one of those. It's the same shape and size as a HP 9816.
It's a great little CPM machine. Don M. has a lot of software for it and I
have some of the SW.  Somebody has got to save this one!

    Joe


From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Fri Oct 27 20:35:49 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: H-89....
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010270938200.11185-100000@war.deltasoft.co
 m>
References: <a05001901b61f5b6d8442@[168.191.215.208]>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001027203549.3a6f3b0e@mailhost.intellistar.net>

At 09:40 AM 10/27/00 -0700, Gene wrote:
>I'm going to be getting an H89 in the next week or so, and I'm considering
>putting all the manuals online as PDF files.  Is there any interest in
>this?  All the searching I've done on the net for H-8/11/88/89 info has
>turned up a pitiful lack of info.  If you've got anything you'd like to
>see on a dedicated Heathkit computer page, please let me know.


   Cool Gene. I have an old Heathkit catalog that lists the H-89. If you
like, I'll scan it and you can add it to your website.

    Joe
>
>g.
>
>
>
>


From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Fri Oct 27 20:47:15 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: Tango Schematic capture, PCB layout and autorouting
  programs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SCO.4.20.0010271555440.13712-100000@crash.cts.com>
References: <3.0.1.16.20001027180519.34778660@mailhost.intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001027204715.3a6fc7de@mailhost.intellistar.net>

At 04:01 PM 10/27/00 -0700, Don wrote:
>
>
>On Fri, 27 Oct 2000, Joe wrote:
>
>>    I was in a library book sale store yesterday and found the complete
>> packages for Tango Schematic (schematic capture program), Tango Route Plus
>> (autorouting program) and Tango PCB Plus (PCB layout program). These date
>> from about 1991. Has anyone used them? Are they any good?
>
>At June of 1992 pricing, that is about $2600 worth of software. 

   Then not bad for $1 each!

 They
>are a San Diego company and are still in business according to the phone
>book.  

    Yeah, I can't afford to pay $2600/3 for one package!

    Joe


From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu  Fri Oct 27 20:20:30 2000
From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: I'm back! (and other things)
In-Reply-To: <20001027170855.B12722@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> from "Shawn T. Rutledge" at "Oct 27, 0 05:08:55 pm"
Message-ID: <200010280120.SAA09326@stockholm.ptloma.edu>

> I would also be interested, if they were affordable.  They have a 
> reputation for being very innovative and I would like to steal as many
> good ideas as possible for eventual incorporation into PDA versions of
> the metawidget GUI system I'm building.  (Somehow _everything_ seems
> related to that lately...)

Metawidget GUI system? Whassat?

-- 
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
 Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. -- G. Marx -

From jhellige at earthlink.net  Fri Oct 27 20:14:41 2000
From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: Was it 110, 135, then 300?
In-Reply-To: <200010272242.RAA26773@caesar.cs.umn.edu>
References: <200010272242.RAA26773@caesar.cs.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <a05001902b61fd71bc154@[168.191.216.94]>

My PMMI MM-103 modem supports anything from 61 up to 600 baud, though 
anything within this range but considered nonstandard is only 
supported between two MM-103's.  It uses FSK modulation and the 
manual is copyright 1980, though some of the circuit diagrams I have 
for it are dated 1978.

	Jeff

>My CDC Plato terminal supports these rates:
>
>   If receiving at 1200: 75, 120, 150, 600, 1200
>
>   If receiving at 1260: 78.2, 126, 157.5, 630, 1260
>
>Also, my International Data Sciences, Modem Test Set supports the
>following data rates: 75, 110, 134.5, 150, 300, 600, 1200, 1800, 2400,
>   4800, 9600. ALso, stop bits can be either 1, 1.4, or 2. This is a
>1980's device, with Nixie tube display.
>
>-Lawrence LeMay
>
>>  What was the progression in modems? Was it 110, 135, then 300, or were the
>>  first two speeds pre modem technology?
>>
>>

-- 
            Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4
        Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems:
                 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757

From mrbill at mrbill.net  Fri Oct 27 20:18:34 2000
From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist License Question
In-Reply-To: <200010272241.PAA06347@shell1.aracnet.com>; from healyzh@aracnet.com on Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 03:41:09PM -0700
References: <39F9F9D9.880DA72@home.net> <200010272241.PAA06347@shell1.aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <20001027201833.H18115@mrbill.net>

On Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 03:41:09PM -0700, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote:
> I'm guessing you're after the VAX Hobbyist CD.  I personally think it's
> better than the Alpha one (what can I say I'm interested in BASIC not what
> they substituted for it on the Alpha CD).  One thing you'll still want to
>keep your eye out for is a Software Product Library set on CD-ROMs.  They show 
> up on eBay from time to time and can fetch anywhere from $9.99 to about 
> $200.00.
> 			Zane

I've got a complete set, latest version, for VAX, somewhere in this room
still in the folders from DEC (maybe still in the cardboard box).  If
someone needs it, let me know.

Bill

-- 
Bill Bradford
mrbill@mrbill.net
Austin, TX

From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Fri Oct 27 20:28:08 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist License Question
Message-ID: <003201c0407e$61ef65f0$59779a8d@ajp166>

From: healyzh@aracnet.com <healyzh@aracnet.com>

>
>So....  If I'm understanding correctly this will allow me to a Database?
>What databases does this work with?  Is this for RDB or what?  This is
>sounding like it's exactly what I've been wanting!


Well I use interbase under NT at work to provide SQL services for
databases
that the user can query.  SQL is the database, it is RDB.  SQL also
stands
for structured query language.

Datasource: Web SQL
Username: sa
Template: query.htx
SQLStatement:
    SELECT FirstName, LastName
    FROM Guests
    WHERE FirstName like '%FirstName%'
        and LastName like '%LastName%'

Whats cute about this is the answer can be served out as html pages.


Allison


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Fri Oct 27 20:33:33 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist License Question
Message-ID: <007b01c0407f$c93aebc0$59779a8d@ajp166>

From: Neil Cherry <ncherry@home.net>


>So how does one order teh CD? I poked around a bit and I could find the
>instructions for ordering. Heck they haven't even sent me any
information
>and I signed up in mid September!


Obviously it's not that clear on the montagar site.  Try montagar.com.

Allison


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Fri Oct 27 20:39:29 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #408
Message-ID: <00d801c04081$30663f60$59779a8d@ajp166>

From: Jeff Hellige <jhellige@earthlink.net>


In a word I was there and did it.  Oh, yeah... been there did that too.

Seriously, back then them boxes were not cheap and 8k of ram was
$199 there were a lot of creative hacks and tweeks to make do, 
make good or make hot.

Allison



> Then you've got the S-100 bus systems of the mid-late 70's 
>where nearly every single one of them was modified to some extent or 
>another just due to the fact that it was something that needed to be 
>done to get any kind of functionality out of it.  Both my homebuilt 
>S-100 machine and my SWTPc 6809 were added to over the years. 
>Sometimes 'hot rodding' was just the nature of the beast and an 
>everyday part of being a computer hobbyist at the time.  I don't feel 
>that period modifications are any less valid a configuration than a 
>fresh factory machine and sometimes even more desirable because of 
>how unique they can be.
>
> Jeff





From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Fri Oct 27 20:49:20 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: RCA Cosmac Dev. System IV update
Message-ID: <00fb01c04082$97e41fd0$59779a8d@ajp166>

From: Paul E.Bosboom <pe.bosboom@hccnet.nl>


It would help us greatly to include basic idea of where "here" is.


>I just read your question about looking for software , spec CDOS, for
the
>cosmac. Well I own a cosmac since 1983
>but it's standing in the corner for a long time now. I have to gear up
the
>poor thing and see if I can make a copy of the old
>floppy's. There are also a set of different cosmac cards and the cosmac
ICE
>in a separate suitcase even all documentation and schematics are
complete as
>far as I know.  If I can help or If anyone wants to buy the whole
system.
>Send me a proposal.
>
>Paul: pe.bosboom@hccnet.nl
>
>


From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com  Fri Oct 27 20:55:58 2000
From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: Chromatics floppy found
Message-ID: <F241HM3SOlbpH71yEXU0000395b@hotmail.com>

It's a graphics workstation, VME, I used to have the guts of one. I've seen 
ads for em in CGW..

Will J
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.


From forslund at tbaytel3.tbaytel.net  Fri Oct 27 16:56:27 2000
From: forslund at tbaytel3.tbaytel.net (The Forslunds)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: H-89....
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010270938200.11185-100000@war.deltasoft.com>
References: <a05001901b61f5b6d8442@[168.191.215.208]>
Message-ID: <200010280157.VAA62966@tbaytel.net>

> I'm going to be getting an H89 in the next week or so, and I'm considering
> putting all the manuals online as PDF files.  Is there any interest in
> this?  All the searching I've done on the net for H-8/11/88/89 info has
> turned up a pitiful lack of info.  If you've got anything you'd like to
> see on a dedicated Heathkit computer page, please let me know.
> 
> g.

This sounds great! I obtained a Heathkit Computer (H89) a while back, 
and it had no documentation with it. I've been looking for 
documentation ever since. The system seems to run fine, but i have no 
diskettes to boot from...  Personally, I'd like to see some 
schematics of the boards from the H89.

Please let me know the url of your website.

Thanks - Bob

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Fri Oct 27 21:13:20 2000
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: H-89....
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001027203549.3a6f3b0e@mailhost.intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010271912530.11398-100000@war.deltasoft.com>

> >putting all the manuals online as PDF files.  Is there any interest in
> >this?  All the searching I've done on the net for H-8/11/88/89 info has
> >turned up a pitiful lack of info.  If you've got anything you'd like to
> >see on a dedicated Heathkit computer page, please let me know.
> 
> 
>    Cool Gene. I have an old Heathkit catalog that lists the H-89. If you
> like, I'll scan it and you can add it to your website.
> 
That would be great Joe!  It would give me an idea of what was available
for the machine, and what parts & docs I have to chase down. :)

g.



From Innfogra at aol.com  Fri Oct 27 21:47:14 2000
From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: HP 125
Message-ID: <86.213d85d.272b9832@aol.com>

In a message dated 10/27/00 5:46:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
rigdonj@intellistar.net writes:

>    Hey, I have one of those. It's the same shape and size as a HP 9816.
>  It's a great little CPM machine. Don M. has a lot of software for it and I
>  have some of the SW.  Somebody has got to save this one!
 
Joe;

You are thinking of the 120, that is the one that looks like the HP 9816. 

The 125 looks like a terminal on a square goose neck. The 125 is a great CPM 
computer. However it uses it's own keyboard which I don't think goes with 
anything else. I hope the keyboard is there. I also think it uses drives with 
the large HP connector that looks like a centronics. I am not sure if it has 
HPIB. I think it came before HP standardized on HPIB.

I used to have one many years ago.
Paxton

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Fri Oct 27 21:41:02 2000
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: H-89....
In-Reply-To: <200010280157.VAA62966@tbaytel.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010271937220.11411-100000@war.deltasoft.com>

> > see on a dedicated Heathkit computer page, please let me know.
> > 
> > g.
> 
> This sounds great! I obtained a Heathkit Computer (H89) a while back, 
> and it had no documentation with it. I've been looking for 
> documentation ever since. The system seems to run fine, but i have no 
> diskettes to boot from...  Personally, I'd like to see some 
> schematics of the boards from the H89.
> 
> Please let me know the url of your website.

Bob, the main site is located at http://deltasoft.fife.wa.us/cpm.  The
Heathkit portion will be under that or maybe at /heathkit.  I may even go
so far as to set up a domain for it, but we'll see how much info I can get
on it.

I'm getting a full manual set for the machine, including the manual for
the H37 soft sector drive controller, rom sources on disk as well as
printed (w/comments), etc.  I'd be happy to make you some CP/M boot disks
for the machine, but I do only have the soft sector controller, so if
you've got the hard sectored controller (H17 I think) then I'll have to
obtain them for you elsewhere.  I'm pretty sure that the manuals include
full schematics, so those will be scanned as well.

g.



From pwok at bellsouth.net  Sat Oct 28 00:18:41 2000
From: pwok at bellsouth.net (Derek Mitchell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: Announcing...  Rent a wreck
Message-ID: <39FA61B1.D4AE09CD@bellsouth.net>

what are the prices for this items.

52. Heathkit ET-3400, ET-3401 6800 Training courses
53. Heathkit ET-3400, ETA-3400

Thanks,

Derek Mitchell



From elvey at hal.com  Fri Oct 27 22:43:44 2000
From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: H-89....
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010271937220.11411-100000@war.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <200010280343.UAA25329@civic.hal.com>

Hi Gene
 I don't have a way to copy stuff easily but I do have
some manuals and docs. I bought a H-89 when they first came
out. After the 2K for the machine, I was too straped to
buy the OS. I hand disassembled the H-17 ROM and figured
how to read and write to the floppy. I took a 8080 listing
for a FIG Forth and put that on it with my disk interface
code. In any case I have a Forth that will boot stand alone.
Ofer the years I aquired the OS and some other software.
I descovered that the way Heath kit was using the disk
was real bad because it required a revolution of the disk
for each consecutive sector. In my Forth, I wrote a format
routine that would pick up a track and rewrite it with
interleaving of the sectors. It made enormous differences
in the operation of the hard sectored software. I'll try
to dig this stuff up. I'll try to give you a list of the
docs and such that I have as well. Maybe someone local can
scan stuff that that I don't have the time to deal with.
( I live in Santa Cruz Ca. ).
Later
 Dwight


PS I also modified my H-89 by mount two half height drives
in the single slot ( it did require a little filing of the plastic ).


From elvey at hal.com  Fri Oct 27 22:50:14 2000
From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: Announcing...  Rent a wreck
In-Reply-To: <39FA61B1.D4AE09CD@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <200010280350.UAA25362@civic.hal.com>

Derek Mitchell <pwok@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> what are the prices for this items.
> 
> 52. Heathkit ET-3400, ET-3401 6800 Training courses
> 53. Heathkit ET-3400, ETA-3400
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Derek Mitchell
> 

Hi
 The last one sold on eBay went for $75. There is
one on there now at $36 but 5 days to go. Check for your
self on the amounts of docs with these.
 They sold quite a few of these since they came with
one of those courses you could order through popular
magazines. These are not as rare as things like Intel
SDK's or the Berkeley board I saw at VCF.
Dwight


From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com  Fri Oct 27 23:17:20 2000
From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: I'm back! (and other things)
In-Reply-To: <200010280120.SAA09326@stockholm.ptloma.edu>; from spectre@stockholm.ptloma.edu on Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 06:20:30PM -0700
References: <20001027170855.B12722@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> <200010280120.SAA09326@stockholm.ptloma.edu>
Message-ID: <20001027211720.C12722@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com>

On Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 06:20:30PM -0700, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
> > I would also be interested, if they were affordable.  They have a 
> > reputation for being very innovative and I would like to steal as many
> > good ideas as possible for eventual incorporation into PDA versions of
> > the metawidget GUI system I'm building.  (Somehow _everything_ seems
> > related to that lately...)
> 
> Metawidget GUI system? Whassat?

There are a couple of entries at
http://gw.kb7pwd.ampr.org/~ecloud/journal/

Basically it's a much higher-level client/server GUI system than has 
been created so far.  NeWS seemed like a good place to start, and I
think I will be able to build some higher-level stuff on top of it.
So I'm trying to recreate something a lot like NeWS as the first step.
It is based on Postscript but goes beyond Display Postscript in a couple
of ways; one, it has an event model.  Postscript code can handle events
and dynamically modify the GUI.  Two, it is object-oriented.

I decided on the Postscript language only recently; there are a lot
of other possible choices, and I'm not sure this is the right one,
but at least it would seem to be one of the easiest interpreted 
languages to optimize.  Speed and memory are both critical, because 
I want to do ports to some classic computers which exist in large
volumes (68K macs, 386 (maybe even 286) PCs, etc.) so that they can 
have a second life as graphics terminals to run applications hosted 
on more powerful machines.

A metawidget could be something as simple as a "command object", a 
single atomic "action" that could be represented by a menu item or a
toolbar button depending on the client implementation; all the way up
to complete "view" tiers which are reusable across applications.  What's
important is that I will be striving for total platform independence.
Many applications should be able to work on any scale of machine, from a 
wristwatch up to a supercomputer; but with some graceful degradation of 
functionality.  (or not so graceful, in extreme cases when the screen 
real estate and/or interaction techniques are completely inadequate)

Because so much is left to the client implementation, there will be a
lot of freedom to innovate new interaction techniques, which immediately
become available to all applications.  So after the base implementation
is done, there can be some e.g. PDA implementations which have some of
the advanced interaction techniques that the Newton had ("commands" being
initiated by gestures, really good handwriting recognition, etc.) and 
the applications will not need to know or care, because all the 
functionality will be client-side.  It's the logical next step beyond
"themes".  And while a client-server GUI system is overkill on today's
PDAs, wireless internet access is quickly becoming available.  Ricochet
is finally starting service in Phoenix.  In a year or two I suspect I'll
be accessing applications running at home, from my PDA.  (but maybe they
will be ordinary web applications, if I'm not done with the metawidget 
stuff by then)

A Lisp machine could do graphics too couldn't it?  Was there anything
particularly impressive about it?  I seriously considered using Scheme
before settling on Postscript; but decided that it is harder to optimize,
because more structures would probably be dynamically allocated, and it
relies more heavily on garbage collection.  I think my Postscript
interpreter will be able to do without garbage collection in most if not
all cases.  But I don't know much about the internals of Scheme/Lisp
interpreters.  I used Guile for some initial experiments.

-- 
  _______                   Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD  ecloud@bigfoot.com
 (_  | |_)          http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud  kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org
 __) | | \________________________________________________________________

From donm at cts.com  Sat Oct 28 00:02:48 2000
From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: Tango Schematic capture, PCB layout and autorouting  programs
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001027204715.3a6fc7de@mailhost.intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SCO.4.20.0010272201160.8203-100000@crash.cts.com>



On Fri, 27 Oct 2000, Joe wrote:

> At 04:01 PM 10/27/00 -0700, Don wrote:
> >
> >
> >On Fri, 27 Oct 2000, Joe wrote:
> >
> >>    I was in a library book sale store yesterday and found the complete
> >> packages for Tango Schematic (schematic capture program), Tango Route Plus
> >> (autorouting program) and Tango PCB Plus (PCB layout program). These date
> >> from about 1991. Has anyone used them? Are they any good?
> >
> >At June of 1992 pricing, that is about $2600 worth of software. 
> 
>    Then not bad for $1 each!
> 
>  They
> >are a San Diego company and are still in business according to the phone
> >book.  
> 
>     Yeah, I can't afford to pay $2600/3 for one package!
 
But you are in luck, Joe, the one you want was only $600.  The other two
were $1000 each.  
						 - don



From donm at cts.com  Sat Oct 28 00:08:34 2000
From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: RCA Cosmac Dev. System IV update
In-Reply-To: <00fb01c04082$97e41fd0$59779a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <Pine.SCO.4.20.0010272208030.8203-100000@crash.cts.com>



On Fri, 27 Oct 2000, ajp166 wrote:

> From: Paul E.Bosboom <pe.bosboom@hccnet.nl>
> 
> 
> It would help us greatly to include basic idea of where "here" is.
 
Netherlands?  
 
> >I just read your question about looking for software , spec CDOS, for
> the
> >cosmac. Well I own a cosmac since 1983
> >but it's standing in the corner for a long time now. I have to gear up
> the
> >poor thing and see if I can make a copy of the old
> >floppy's. There are also a set of different cosmac cards and the cosmac
> ICE
> >in a separate suitcase even all documentation and schematics are
> complete as
> >far as I know.  If I can help or If anyone wants to buy the whole
> system.
> >Send me a proposal.
> >
> >Paul: pe.bosboom@hccnet.nl
> >
> >
> 
> 


From lgwalker at look.ca  Fri Oct 27 17:31:21 2000
From: lgwalker at look.ca (Lawrence Walker)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: H-89....
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010270938200.11185-100000@war.deltasoft.com>
References: <a05001901b61f5b6d8442@[168.191.215.208]>
Message-ID: <39F9C9F9.31363.98BCC3@localhost>



> I'm going to be getting an H89 in the next week or so, and I'm
> considering putting all the manuals online as PDF files.  Is there any
> interest in this?  All the searching I've done on the net for
> H-8/11/88/89 info has turned up a pitiful lack of info.  If you've got
> anything you'd like to see on a dedicated Heathkit computer page,
> please let me know.
> 
> g.
> 
 That's a definite thumbs up !! It might even finally inspire me 
enough to get my Z-89 up and running. There has been 
considerable discussion on the H89 over the years on the list
and Tony Duell is the resident expert. Considering the amount of 
interest in them it's amazing there hasn't been something before.
Only one of the Heathkit sites had anything mildly useful when I
was searching.
 Another candidate is the TRS80 m.II which is usually passed over 
on TRS80 sites. The wee bit that is available is due to a couple of
our european list members.

ciao		larry



Reply to:
lgwalker@look.ca

From lgwalker at look.ca  Fri Oct 27 17:31:21 2000
From: lgwalker at look.ca (Lawrence Walker)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: Tango Schematic capture, PCB layout and autorouting programs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SCO.4.20.0010271555440.13712-100000@crash.cts.com>
References: <3.0.1.16.20001027180519.34778660@mailhost.intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <39F9C9F9.22928.98BCE6@localhost>

> > 
> >   One of my other COOL finds there was a September 1977 issue of
> >   Scientific
> > American. It's filled with articles about microelectronics (almost
> > completely computers). There's also a LOT of ads from the various
> > S-100 computer manufactures. BUT the coolest thing in it is an
> > article (Microelectronics and the Personal Computer) by Alan Kay.
> > Alan was one of the guiding lights at XEROX PARC.  This article has
> > a pile of pictures and information about XEROX's then experimental
> > graphical computers. It even mentions a new pointing device called a
> > mouse. Does anyone know what that might be? :-)
> > 
> >     Joe
> > 
 One of the most prized mags in my collection. Some great 
articles. Other good Sci-Am computer issues were the 
November 65 and especially the September 66 issues.
The shape of things to come.

ciao		larry 


Reply to:
lgwalker@look.ca

From lgwalker at look.ca  Fri Oct 27 18:02:52 2000
From: lgwalker at look.ca (Lawrence Walker)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: H-89....
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010271937220.11411-100000@war.deltasoft.com>
References: <200010280157.VAA62966@tbaytel.net>
Message-ID: <39F9D15C.27559.B59866@localhost>

> 
> Bob, the main site is located at http://deltasoft.fife.wa.us/cpm.  The
> Heathkit portion will be under that or maybe at /heathkit.  I may even
> go so far as to set up a domain for it, but we'll see how much info I
> can get on it.
> 
> I'm getting a full manual set for the machine, including the manual
> for the H37 soft sector drive controller, rom sources on disk as well
> as printed (w/comments), etc.  I'd be happy to make you some CP/M boot
> disks for the machine, but I do only have the soft sector controller,
> so if you've got the hard sectored controller (H17 I think) then I'll
> have to obtain them for you elsewhere.  I'm pretty sure that the
> manuals include full schematics, so those will be scanned as well.
> 
> g.
> 
 I've got an H-77 dual 8" FDD that I picked up separately from my 
Z-89 but assumed it was for the 89 . Was this FDD usually used 
with it ? 

ciao		larry



Reply to:
lgwalker@look.ca

From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Sat Oct 28 08:30:51 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: HP 125
In-Reply-To: <86.213d85d.272b9832@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001028083051.3d572bea@mailhost.intellistar.net>

At 10:47 PM 10/27/00 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 10/27/00 5:46:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
>rigdonj@intellistar.net writes:
>
>>    Hey, I have one of those. It's the same shape and size as a HP 9816.
>>  It's a great little CPM machine. Don M. has a lot of software for it and I
>>  have some of the SW.  Somebody has got to save this one!
> 
>Joe;
>
>You are thinking of the 120, that is the one that looks like the HP 9816. 


    You're probably right but they're both great machines.

>
>The 125 looks like a terminal on a square goose neck. The 125 is a great CPM 
>computer. However it uses it's own keyboard which I don't think goes with 
>anything else. I hope the keyboard is there. 


  So do I. I have one, I'll look up the PN later and post it so that anyone
that wants it can check on the keyboard.



I also think it uses drives with 
>the large HP connector that looks like a centronics. 


   I have both models and they both have HP-IB ports. The large SCSI
looking connector is/was actually HP's standard serial connector.  I've run
both of my machines off of HP 9121 drives and they work fine (Bill has
several of those drives too.)

I am not sure if it has 
>HPIB. I think it came before HP standardized on HPIB.
>
>I used to have one many years ago.


   Believe it or not, I have the 120 that you used to have. Dan picked it
up at your auction and traded it to me. I brought it home in my airline
luggage. That's one of the things that I like about the 120, it's nice and
small.

>Paxton
>


From cbajpai at mediaone.net  Sat Oct 28 08:35:58 2000
From: cbajpai at mediaone.net (Chandra Bajpai)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: H-89....
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010270938200.11185-100000@war.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <NDBBIJIGGLDMHLGFNIICOEBBDKAA.cbajpai@mediaone.net>


Gene,
  I might be able to help...I have a ton of documentation that came with a
H89.
You can borrow any manuals you might need.

Thanks,
Chandra


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org
[mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Gene Buckle
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2000 12:41 PM
To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org
Subject: H-89....


I'm going to be getting an H89 in the next week or so, and I'm considering
putting all the manuals online as PDF files.  Is there any interest in
this?  All the searching I've done on the net for H-8/11/88/89 info has
turned up a pitiful lack of info.  If you've got anything you'd like to
see on a dedicated Heathkit computer page, please let me know.

g.




From geneb at deltasoft.com  Sat Oct 28 10:15:38 2000
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: H-89....
In-Reply-To: <200010280343.UAA25329@civic.hal.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010280813400.11661-100000@war.deltasoft.com>

> buy the OS. I hand disassembled the H-17 ROM and figured
> how to read and write to the floppy. I took a 8080 listing
> for a FIG Forth and put that on it with my disk interface
Now THAT is dedication. :)

> docs and such that I have as well. Maybe someone local can
> scan stuff that that I don't have the time to deal with.
> ( I live in Santa Cruz Ca. ).

This would be great!  Thanks!

g.



From THETechnoid at home.com  Fri Oct 27 21:52:22 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist License Question
In-Reply-To: <007b01c0407f$c93aebc0$59779a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <20001028152747.FQKU26793.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

I just went through this.

The Montagar site has all you need but the docs that come with the cd are
dense and not very explanatory.

Here is what you need to do.

Get your OpenVMS cd via the online order at Montagar.com.  Once you have
it:

The registration is not so intuitive.

Go to Montagar.com and fill out the registration for your software using
your ID given by DECUS with your cd order.  Specify VAXVMS or ALPHA.  This
will get you your registration info via e-mail in minutes flat but it only
covers the base operating system.

For the other products such as Motif (window manager), you need to go back
to the exact same page and specify "layered products" in the drop-down box
(it only has three options) entering the same information otherwise.  You
will receive a much larger e-mail giving you all the info you need to
register the other components.

The e-mail gives you everything you need but does not tell you it does or
how to do it in any plain terms.  An Example of this e-mail (details
altered to protect the guilty):

Boot the cd.  Usually you will enter "b dka400" or "b dka200". Whatever
the boot device's scsi address is, just multiply by 100.

The Install will begin.  You can follow the docs that came with your
openvms cd for this.

Don't bother with the registration dialogs at this point, just answer that
you don't want to right now. The dialogs did not work for me but the
command-line reg did just fine.

Once the operating system is installed, log in as user SYSTEM and enter
what you see to enter below substituting your own code for my altered
ones.

Remember to get the Layered products reg as well or you will have trouble
though I found 


$!     Usage of this licenses consistutes agreement with all terms of this
Hobbyist $!     License Agreement
$! 
$ LICENSE REGISTER VAX-VMS	-
	/ACTIVITY=A	-
	/AUTHORIZATION=DECUS-USA-freeman-154786	-
	/DATE=27-OCT-2001	-
	/HARDWARE_ID=cz409027NS	-
	/ISSUER=DECUS	-
	/OPTIONS=(NO_SHARE)	-
	/PRODUCER=DEC	-
	/TERMINATION=27-OCT-2001	-
	/UNITS=0	-
	/CHECKSUM=1-QAGH-DECE-FPED-KMHI

What this is saying is to enter at the DCL prompt ($):

"license register vax-vms /activity=a
/autorization=decus-usa-freeman-154786 /date=27-oct-2001
/hardware_id=cz409027ns /issuer=decus /options=(no_share) /producer=dec
/termination=27-oct-2001 /units=0 /checksum=1-qagh-dece-fped-kmhi" OMIT
the QUOTES of course.

Nothing will happen, you will get a prompt.  This is good and means that
the product is now registered. If it complains then you missed a character
or something.

For layered products you need to repeat the process for each of them using
the codes provided in the second e-mail.

I have to say I have found the process counter-intuitive but express my
thanks to DEC for thier largess nevertheless. Data General never gave me
more than the time of day and I had to enter that myself. ;-)


>Obviously it's not that clear on the montagar site.  Try montagar.com.

>Allison


-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From THETechnoid at home.com  Sat Oct 28 10:39:01 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist License Question
In-Reply-To: <200010270457.VAA01723@shell1.aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <20001028153509.FUMJ26793.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

That is just where I was stuck.  My solution was to log in as user SYSTEST
which gave the same complaint (from motif that it wasn't PAKed), but then
dropped me to a command prompt where I was able to register Motif.

I posted a note on how all this stuff works so others can go through the
process a little more smoothly than I did.

BTW, my vaxstation 4000/60 is PICKY as HELL when it comes to what drives
it will use.  I tried several makes/models of scsi drives until I found
that only my two Quantum scsi drives work correctly.  I think DEC must
have been buying Quantum hdd's for thier machines..?

Not to mention that it doesn't like any of my cdrom drives that are
jumperable for 512byte blocks (at least not for the install).  The machine
would boot from ANY of my cdroms to the standalone backup DCL prompt, but
when I initiated the restore it would bomb in a big way.

I had to get an RRD40 to get the install to go.  Creating a DD image of
the cd on another hard disk did similar things.

I've got a bid going for several rrd40 cartridges.  I had to take the
drive apart to get the CD into it.....

Thanks,

Jeff


In <200010270457.VAA01723@shell1.aracnet.com>, on 10/28/00 
   at 11:39 AM, healyzh@aracnet.com said:

>I'm embarrased to admit I went through this problem this week when
>setting up a test box.

>			Zane

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From abrarwadera at hotmail.com  Sat Oct 28 10:46:47 2000
From: abrarwadera at hotmail.com (abrar wadera)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: INS8154 used in Cytospin
Message-ID: <F247RcTCi90gP8yJrNK000012b8@hotmail.com>

Dear Sirs
We have many cytospins which are centrifuges esed in cytology departments 
and the peripherals chips used are INS8154N, we are not able to find any of 
them from any source. Can you suggest any or some equivalents.

With Regards

Abrar
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
http://profiles.msn.com.


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Sat Oct 28 10:39:05 2000
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: H-89....
In-Reply-To: <39F9C9F9.31363.98BCC3@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010280824050.11661-100000@war.deltasoft.com>

>  That's a definite thumbs up !! It might even finally inspire me 
> enough to get my Z-89 up and running. There has been 

It's not working?  For shame Larry! :)

> considerable discussion on the H89 over the years on the list
> and Tony Duell is the resident expert. Considering the amount of 
> interest in them it's amazing there hasn't been something before.
> Only one of the Heathkit sites had anything mildly useful when I
> was searching.
It's really irritating.  The volume of information on Heathkit's amateur
radio products is nearly overwhelming, but the computer line is nearly
ignored.  I would imagine that it's got quite a bit to do with the fact
that ham radio operators are massive kit builder freaks.  (I can say this
because I'm one of 'em - KC7AFE *g*)  It really ticks me off to see
computers as good as the H/Z series is being virtually ignored.  I think
it's most likely due to the fact that "old timers" like us really enjoy
know what the hell goes on under the case and the new generation of geeks
is more concerned with what it can do or how fast it can go.

 >  Another candidate is the TRS80 m.II which is usually passed
over 
> on TRS80 sites. The wee bit that is available is due to a couple of
> our european list members.

Hmm.  Come to think of it, I've NEVER seen a TRS-80 Model II site.  There
is a VERY good TRS-80 site at http://www.trs-80.com.  It's run by Ira
Goldklang.  It's probably the single largest collection of software for
the TRS-80 series of computers that anyone has ever seen.  He's looking
for a high bandwidth mirror if anyone is interested - I guess the site
costs him quite a bit to operate.

g.



From THETechnoid at home.com  Sat Oct 28 10:45:32 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: Was it 110, 135, then 300?
In-Reply-To: <l03102800b61eca842fde@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <20001028155237.GDZF26793.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

It was 45.5, 50, 56.875, 75, 110, 134.5, 150, 300, 600, 1200, 1800, 2400,
4800, 9600 etc etc etc

Most of the lower ones were used for Baudot 5bit teletype comms and were
commonly referred to as 60, 67, 75, and 100 words per minute.  134.5 is
used by some IBM systems (older).

Any I missed?

Source: Atari 850 interface module operators manual.
The 850 can handle the current-loop which teletype use but only on two of
the four ports.

An interesting note is that the Microbits Peripheral Products MPP1000
series "300" baud modem is adjustable in increments of 1baud making all
combinations possible reliably up to about 450baud on a clean line. This
was an obviously useful feature if the BBS you were calling also had an
MPP1000 modem.....  Another use was when the other-end used a modem that
wasnt running at quite the correct rate. The Atari 1030 modem runs at 297
and is not adjustable.  I'd just set my MPP to 297 and things would go
smoothly.

More trivia that you probably allready know is that the term 'Baud' does
not apply to the newer (2400 and up) modems because these don't use FSCK
to move data.  They send multifrequency 'symbols' taking better advantage
of the audio bandwith of the phone line.

Does anyone recall the origin of the term "Baud".  I used to know but that
was a long time ago. I think it was someone named Baudot?

regards,

Jeff

P.S. I reserve the right to be wrong.

In <l03102800b61eca842fde@[192.168.1.4]>, on 10/28/00 
   at 11:45 AM, Mike Ford <mikeford@socal.rr.com> said:

>What was the progression in modems? Was it 110, 135, then 300, or were
>the first two speeds pre modem technology?



-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Sat Oct 28 10:41:37 2000
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: H-89....
In-Reply-To: <39F9D15C.27559.B59866@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010280839370.11661-100000@war.deltasoft.com>

>  I've got an H-77 dual 8" FDD that I picked up separately from my 
> Z-89 but assumed it was for the 89 . Was this FDD usually used 
> with it ? 
> 
Larry, the only difference (that I know of) between the Z-89 and the H-89
is that the Z-89 was a factory built H-89 rebadged Zenth (the Heathkit
parent at that time).  There may be board changes or other changes, but
they're basically the same computer.  If you've got pictures of those
drives I'd like to see them.  

g.



From geneb at deltasoft.com  Sat Oct 28 10:53:18 2000
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: H-89....
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJIGGLDMHLGFNIICOEBBDKAA.cbajpai@mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010280851420.11661-100000@war.deltasoft.com>

>   I might be able to help...I have a ton of documentation that came with a
> H89.
> You can borrow any manuals you might need.

Thanks!  Let me sort out my stuff when I get it.  Could you email me a
list of the stuff you've got off the list?

Thanks!

g.



From THETechnoid at home.com  Fri Oct 27 15:29:22 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist layered products
In-Reply-To: <20001027121641.A1258@loomcom.com>
Message-ID: <20001028162247.GTHN26793.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

I figured out what I needed to do to register my newly installed
OVMS7.2(vaxstation4000/60) and Motif so now I've got Decwindows running.

I'd like to network the machine via TCP/IP.  The hobbyist cd is supposed
to contain the TCP/IP product, but I must confess I have no idea even how
to see the contents of the cd.  I can mount it and install products like
Motif IF I know what the product package's NAME is.....

Any help would be appreciated.  It might be that the TCP/IP stack is
already on the machine but I can't tell that it is.

Basicly I have navigation troubles.  All those string ($) signs are
freaking me out.  Hey, I figured out AOS/VS II so I'm not stupid.  I guess
I'm looking for a handout to help me network this vax to my other
machines. A new operating system takes something like five months for me
to gain fluency in.  I'd like to cut the painful part a bit so I can surf
on the machine.

The last time I had navigation troubles, PHRACK was real useful (AOS/VS),
but 2600.com

My Sparcstation was never so strange.  I guess Unix is Unix is Unix, but
VMS is odd.

Your's truely,

Jeff

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From frederik at freddym.org  Sat Oct 28 11:55:25 2000
From: frederik at freddym.org (Frederik Meerwaldt)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist layered products
In-Reply-To: <20001028162247.GTHN26793.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0010281852060.24867-100000@server.wes.mee.com>

Hi!

> I'd like to network the machine via TCP/IP.  The hobbyist cd is supposed
> to contain the TCP/IP product, but I must confess I have no idea even how
> to see the contents of the cd.  I can mount it and install products like
> Motif IF I know what the product package's NAME is.....

just mount it, set def to the directory and then do a dir. But why don't
you look at my OpenVMS-Howto (www.freddym.org/en_vmsht_fnc.html)? Basic
things are described there. And there are some other good VMS-Howtos on
the Net.

> Any help would be appreciated.  It might be that the TCP/IP stack is
> already on the machine but I can't tell that it is.

$help product

> Basicly I have navigation troubles.  All those string ($) signs are
> freaking me out.  Hey, I figured out AOS/VS II so I'm not stupid.  I guess
> I'm looking for a handout to help me network this vax to my other
> machines. A new operating system takes something like five months for me
> to gain fluency in.  I'd like to cut the painful part a bit so I can surf
> on the machine.

It's very easy. Important dir's are sys$system (System Files and
executables in it) sys$startup (Startup files) sys$update (Files such as
vmsinstal ...)

If you have any additional more specific questions, I'll be glad to help
you.

> My Sparcstation was never so strange.  I guess Unix is Unix is Unix, but
> VMS is odd.


A bit. But it's very nice.

-- 
Best Regards,
	Freddy

Geek Code 3.1: GCS s+: a--- C+++ UBOU+++ P-- E--- W++ N w--- V++ PGP- t? 5? tv

=====================================================================
Frederik Meerwaldt  ICQ: 83045387  Homepage: http://www.freddym.org
 Bavaria/Germany              OpenVMS and Unix Howtos and much more
   FREEBSD, NETBSD, OPENBSD, TRU64, OPENVMS, ULTRIX, BEOS, LINUX


From KenzieM at sympatico.ca  Sat Oct 28 12:36:23 2000
From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: AT&T 7300
References: <20001028155237.GDZF26793.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>
Message-ID: <002901c04105$bcb00cb0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca>

I stopped by the local recyclers today and they had an AT&T
7300 for $40
Does anyone here know anything about this machine?

Thay also had an older apple monitor  on the stand for $10
and a keyboard for the PS/2 model 25 for $5 to complete a
few partial machines in the basement.

Still no luck finding the VAXstation parts




From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com  Sat Oct 28 13:02:03 2000
From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:15 2005
Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist License Question
In-Reply-To: <20001028152747.FQKU26793.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci2232
 29-a>
References: <007b01c0407f$c93aebc0$59779a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001028104324.02ad9eb0@208.226.86.10>

At 10:52 PM 10/27/00 -0400, you wrote:
>I just went through this.

I've been through it many times. :-)

>The Montagar site has all you need but the docs that come with the cd are
>dense and not very explanatory.

Hah! This is an understatement. I was really only successful/comfortable 
when I got one of the ConDist sets and used those docs.


>Here is what you need to do.

{edited for brevity]

Another way to say this is to give the general algorithm. If you can boot 
the media you will probably come up in standalone backup. The magic then is 
to type:

$ BACKUP/IMAGE/VERIFY [src]VMSxxx.B/save_set [dst]

Since I'm precluded from using HTML to express this a bit more clearly, 
allow me to elucidate on the variable parts:

[src] and [dst] are device specifiers. Before you booted your VAX you had 
to do a 'show device' to see what devices it knew about, the src device is 
the CD-ROM (usually DKAxxx or DKBxxx on a VaxStation/Microvax, but will 
usually be DUAx or DUBx if you are booting from a MSCP type SCSI 
controller) If you're using tape then the device will be something like 
MUA0 or MKA0 etc.

The filename VMSxxx.B changes only based on the version of VMS, so VMS 7.2 
is VMS072.B whereas VMS 5.5 is VMS055.B.

You should use the switch /VERIFY so that you know the disk is good before 
booting it.

You must use the switch /IMAGE because you are copying over the complete 
disk (no formatting, fdisking, or anything else usually needed)

You must use the switch /SAVE_SET to tell backup that you're restoring from 
a saveset.

Once this command finishes you can now halt and boot from the [dst] drive 
and the first part of VMS will come up.

>Don't bother with the registration dialogs at this point, just answer that
>you don't want to right now. The dialogs did not work for me but the
>command-line reg did just fine.

This was true for me until I figured out what fields went with what. Note 
that in the PAK shown below:

>$!     Usage of this licenses consistutes agreement with all terms of this
>Hobbyist $!     License Agreement
>$!
>$ LICENSE REGISTER VAX-VMS      -
>         /ACTIVITY=A     -
>         /AUTHORIZATION=DECUS-USA-freeman-154786 -
>         /DATE=27-OCT-2001       -
>         /HARDWARE_ID=cz409027NS -
>         /ISSUER=DECUS   -
>         /OPTIONS=(NO_SHARE)     -
>         /PRODUCER=DEC   -
>         /TERMINATION=27-OCT-2001        -
>         /UNITS=0        -
>         /CHECKSUM=1-QAGH-DECE-FPED-KMHI

The date and termination date are the same. (Actually this is probably a 
valid PAK :-) This threw me off for a while. Note that you can use the 
layered products on _all_ your VAXen with the same PAKs so you don't need 
to get them more than once (and if you ask for them again you will get the 
same ones you got the first time.)

Typically what I do at this point (registering PAKs) is to register the 
VAX-VMS PAK and the UCX PAK. Note that TCP-IP is on the Montagar disk. Once 
you log in as system you can then install TCP/IP using:

@SYS$UPDATE:VMSINSTALL TCPIP_VAX050 [src]:[TCPIP_VAX050.KIT]

And then run TCPIP$CONFIG once TCPIP is loaded. Now with that running and 
FTP enabled, you can ftp over the rest of the layered software PAKS (they 
are sent as a DCL script) and type:
$ @LAYERED.COM
(use whatever name you put it in as)
And it will install licenses for everything. [important note: make sure you 
delete the UCX license out of the full set since if you don't you will get 
a "duplicate" and the script will stop.]


>Nothing will happen, you will get a prompt.  This is good and means that
>the product is now registered. If it complains then you missed a character
>or something.

After registering a PAK manually you should type:
$ LICEN LOAD VAX-VMS
to insure it is loaded.

Anyway, I've done this about a dozen times now so its getting to be fairly 
familiar :-)

--Chuck



From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com  Sat Oct 28 13:15:13 2000
From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist layered products
In-Reply-To: <20001028162247.GTHN26793.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci2232
 29-a>
References: <20001027121641.A1258@loomcom.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001028110418.02ad24b0@208.226.86.10>

At 04:29 PM 10/27/00 -0400, you wrote:
>I'd like to network the machine via TCP/IP.  The hobbyist cd is supposed
>to contain the TCP/IP product, but I must confess I have no idea even how
>to see the contents of the cd.  I can mount it and install products like
>Motif IF I know what the product package's NAME is.....

Its damn confusing isn't it? Unfortunately the Montegar CD-ROM is a mess 
when it comes to kits, some have kits some don't, very sad. Here are some 
clues:

You can get a directory of the CD by mounting it and typing:

$ DIR DKAxxx:[000000]
(note that is six zeros)

You can leave off the zeros when you find a directory, ie :

$DIR DKAxxx:[TCPIP_VAX050]

If you find a directory full of savesets (they will be named "foo.A foo.B 
foo.C etc") then you can install them with:

$ @SYS$UPDATE:VMSINSTAL foo [directory spec where the save sets are]

So for TCPIP it is

$ @SYS$UPDATE:VMSINSTAL TCPIP_VAX050 DKA400:[TCPIP_VAX050.KIT]

Note that KIT is a subdirectory of TCPIP_VAX050 and you need your CD-ROM's 
target not mine :-)

If on the otherhand you find a file that ends with the PCSI extension, then 
that is designed to be installed by the PCSI system. You do that using:

$ product install NAME /SRC=[directory]

Note if you don't know what its name should be (and believe me it can be 
tough to guess some times) then just type:

$ product install /src=[directory]

And when it asks for a name type * there will be only one choice and it 
will be chosen for you.

 > Basicly I have navigation troubles.

Yes, there are those "logical" names versus the "real" name of the drives. 
Some clues there are :
         [000000]  is the root directory
         [foo] is a file FOO.DIR in the root directory
         [foo.bar] is the file BAR.DIR in the FOO directory

Typing
$ SET DEFAULT [directory spec]

Is like doing a "CD to directory"
and typing

$ SET DEFAULT [-]

Is like typing "CD .."

--Chuck



From eric at brouhaha.com  Sat Oct 28 13:12:29 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: AT&T 7300
In-Reply-To: <002901c04105$bcb00cb0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca>
	(KenzieM@sympatico.ca)
References: <20001028155237.GDZF26793.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> <002901c04105$bcb00cb0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <20001028181229.19503.qmail@brouhaha.com>

> I stopped by the local recyclers today and they had an AT&T
> 7300 for $40
> Does anyone here know anything about this machine?

It was a nice mid-1980s 68010-based Unix box.  AT&T System V release 2
with some Berkeley extensions.  512K RAM on the motherboard, more can
be added via the three expansion slots.  Max 4M total, though to get
that on a 7300 you'll either have to modify some expansion boards or
upgrade the motherboard to 2M by replacing all of the soldered-in chips.

Uses a custom MMU design for demand-paged virtual memory.  Maximum
per-process VM is 4M, so you can't run really big modern stuff.

I think the only hard drive sizes AT&T shipped on the 7300 were 10 and
20 megabytes.  The 3B1 is a similar machine with 2M RAM on the motherboard
and a modified case that can hold a full-height 5.25 inch drive.  Those
shipped with 40 or 67M drives.  It's possible to upgrade to most any MFM
drive that will physically fit, but to access more than 1024 cylinders
(e.g., a Maxtor XT2190 drive with 1124 cylinders for 150 megabytes), you
need to replace the WD1010 HDC chip with a WD2010.

The C compiler is K&R (non-ANSI), but there is a port of GCC.

There's no X.  I tried to build Xlib some years back, so that I'd
be able to run X clients (NOT an X server), but I ran into trouble
and gave up.

The native window system is similar to AT&T's "FACE" environment
(Framed Access Computing Environment or some such).  There's also a port
of the MGR window system.

The definitive web site is:
    http://unixpc.taronga.com/

From THETechnoid at home.com  Sat Oct 28 13:31:22 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist layered products
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001028110418.02ad24b0@208.226.86.10>
Message-ID: <20001028182214.JMLX26793.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

WOW!  Thank you very much.  Your info was just what I needed!  Of course
I'd like a dozen more like messages.....  I think from here I can work. 

Thanks again!

Jeff

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From menadeau at mediaone.net  Sat Oct 28 13:21:27 2000
From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Mediaone)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: H-89....
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010280824050.11661-100000@war.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <001d01c0410b$e331a0a0$0c01a8c0@michaelnadeau>

You might also try Kees's Model II page at.
http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/cm/modelii.html.

Michael Nadeau
(former editor, 80 Micro)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Buckle" <geneb@deltasoft.com>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 11:39 AM
Subject: Re: H-89....


> >  That's a definite thumbs up !! It might even finally inspire me
> > enough to get my Z-89 up and running. There has been
>
> It's not working?  For shame Larry! :)
>
> > considerable discussion on the H89 over the years on the list
> > and Tony Duell is the resident expert. Considering the amount of
> > interest in them it's amazing there hasn't been something before.
> > Only one of the Heathkit sites had anything mildly useful when I
> > was searching.
> It's really irritating.  The volume of information on Heathkit's amateur
> radio products is nearly overwhelming, but the computer line is nearly
> ignored.  I would imagine that it's got quite a bit to do with the fact
> that ham radio operators are massive kit builder freaks.  (I can say this
> because I'm one of 'em - KC7AFE *g*)  It really ticks me off to see
> computers as good as the H/Z series is being virtually ignored.  I think
> it's most likely due to the fact that "old timers" like us really enjoy
> know what the hell goes on under the case and the new generation of geeks
> is more concerned with what it can do or how fast it can go.
>
>  >  Another candidate is the TRS80 m.II which is usually passed
> over
> > on TRS80 sites. The wee bit that is available is due to a couple of
> > our european list members.
>
> Hmm.  Come to think of it, I've NEVER seen a TRS-80 Model II site.  There
> is a VERY good TRS-80 site at http://www.trs-80.com.  It's run by Ira
> Goldklang.  It's probably the single largest collection of software for
> the TRS-80 series of computers that anyone has ever seen.  He's looking
> for a high bandwidth mirror if anyone is interested - I guess the site
> costs him quite a bit to operate.
>
> g.
>
>
>


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Oct 28 12:39:58 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: H-89....
In-Reply-To: <39F9C9F9.31363.98BCC3@localhost> from "Lawrence Walker" at Oct 27, 0 06:31:21 pm
Message-ID: <m13pZxb-000IyHC@p850ug1>

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Oct 28 12:47:37 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: INS8154 used in Cytospin
In-Reply-To: <F247RcTCi90gP8yJrNK000012b8@hotmail.com> from "abrar wadera" at Oct 28, 0 03:46:47 pm
Message-ID: <m13pa4y-000IyJC@p850ug1>

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From sipke at wxs.nl  Sat Oct 28 13:33:53 2000
From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: INS8154 used in Cytospin
References: <F247RcTCi90gP8yJrNK000012b8@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <007f01c0410d$a4108420$030101ac@boll.casema.net>

This is a National Semiconductor I/O-chip with internal RAM. 
I don't think you will find easy replacements because this was 
a very NS-only chip with no second sourcing.

It was used in Science of Cambrigde's (Clive Sinclair) MK 14

Sipke de Wal


----- Original Message ----- 
From: abrar wadera <abrarwadera@hotmail.com>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Cc: <abrar.wadera@del2.siemens.co.in>
Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 5:46 PM
Subject: INS8154 used in Cytospin


> Dear Sirs
> We have many cytospins which are centrifuges esed in cytology departments 
> and the peripherals chips used are INS8154N, we are not able to find any of 
> them from any source. Can you suggest any or some equivalents.
> 
> With Regards
> 
> Abrar
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
> 
> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
> http://profiles.msn.com.
> 


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Sat Oct 28 13:40:01 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: INS8154 used in Cytospin
Message-ID: <019b01c0410e$d8417550$59779a8d@ajp166>

The INS8154 is a programable parallel IO device and 128 byte ram.
There are no substutes I know of, as it was single sourced from
National Semi.

the alternate would be to try and find new unused old stack or
make a substitute using TTL and ram devices that are avaiable.

I know the device though, I have two I bought for use 20 years ago.

Allison


-----Original Message-----
From: abrar wadera <abrarwadera@hotmail.com>
To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Cc: abrar.wadera@del2.siemens.co.in <abrar.wadera@del2.siemens.co.in>
Date: Saturday, October 28, 2000 12:14 PM
Subject: INS8154 used in Cytospin


>Dear Sirs
>We have many cytospins which are centrifuges esed in cytology
departments
>and the peripherals chips used are INS8154N, we are not able to find any
of
>them from any source. Can you suggest any or some equivalents.
>
>With Regards
>
>Abrar
>________________________________________________________________________
_
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
http://www.hotmail.com.
>
>Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
>http://profiles.msn.com.
>


From richard at idcomm.com  Sat Oct 28 13:56:34 2000
From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: INS8154 used in Cytospin
References: <F247RcTCi90gP8yJrNK000012b8@hotmail.com> <007f01c0410d$a4108420$030101ac@boll.casema.net>
Message-ID: <004c01c04110$cc755e60$0100a8c0@winbook>

I'll look later for the INS8154, but the Intel 8155 and 8156 were both RAMs
with 16 bits of I/O controllable on a bitwise basis like the bits in a 6821
. . . Could one of those work?

Dick

----- Original Message -----
From: Sipke de Wal <sipke@wxs.nl>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 12:33 PM
Subject: Re: INS8154 used in Cytospin


> This is a National Semiconductor I/O-chip with internal RAM.
> I don't think you will find easy replacements because this was
> a very NS-only chip with no second sourcing.
>
> It was used in Science of Cambrigde's (Clive Sinclair) MK 14
>
> Sipke de Wal
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: abrar wadera <abrarwadera@hotmail.com>
> To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
> Cc: <abrar.wadera@del2.siemens.co.in>
> Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 5:46 PM
> Subject: INS8154 used in Cytospin
>
>
> > Dear Sirs
> > We have many cytospins which are centrifuges esed in cytology
departments
> > and the peripherals chips used are INS8154N, we are not able to find any
of
> > them from any source. Can you suggest any or some equivalents.
> >
> > With Regards
> >
> > Abrar
> >
_________________________________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
http://www.hotmail.com.
> >
> > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> > http://profiles.msn.com.
> >
>
>


From mrbill at mrbill.net  Sat Oct 28 14:10:56 2000
From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: More Free PDP-11 stuff in the UK
Message-ID: <20001028141056.W18115@mrbill.net>

More PDP-11 stuff available in the UK...  Please respond directly to
the gentleman below instead of me...

bill

----- Forwarded message from Dominic <dominic@altoona.fsnet.co.uk> -----

From: "Dominic" <dominic@altoona.fsnet.co.uk>
To: <mrbill@pdp11.org>
Subject: PDP11 Computers
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 19:02:54 +0100

Hi !

I recently rescued alot of computer stuff from a breaker here in the UK. Everything that was there I took away. The load has some PDP11 bits:

1 x PDP11/73  Model 1730A-B3   SER No. AY00934

1 x PDP11  Model 11A23-R   SER No. AY07507

Both are 120/240 Volts AC in on power supply, both units are complete except they are both missing the plastic cases. They were removed ready for the units to be pulled apart, Luckly I got there when I did, BUT some others were not so lucky and were already in bits. I managed to collect:

PCB BOARDS: M7555 x2
                       M8043 x2
                       M7954 x1
                       M8049 x1
Also a "Realtime Clock" card ???!
There are also large boards:

M8067 x4
M8189 x2

Misc Bits:

1 x Rx50 -AA revc Dual 5 1/4" Floppy drive
3 x AA12B1 ASTEC power supply units, Digital code H7864A
1 x Digital VDU inc keyboard type VT320 
2 x RS232 cables to connect VDU to 'Console' skt on computers.

Both the PDP computers work, the 11/73 boots up ok on its RD52A Hard Drive, runs through a mass of loading commands then says 'Have a good afternoon'!  rebooting it gets it to request a login and password. I have not managed to get in despite several attempts.
The other goes through its startup routine, then asks for a boot disk. I returned to the breaker and tried to find some but was told all disks had been thrown away - typical! 
The unit has a hard drive but its labelled 'Cleared by Digital' so there is probably nothing on it anyway.

 It's so sad when gear goes for scrap, even working stuff - such a waste. I am based in the UK in Norfolk near LOWESTOFT on the EAST COAST. I don't know where you are but if anybody wants these items they can have them, no money required! 

Happy Christmas!

Dominic.

----- End forwarded message -----

-- 
Bill Bradford
mrbill@mrbill.net
Austin, TX

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Sat Oct 28 14:11:18 2000
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: H-89....
In-Reply-To: <m13pZxb-000IyHC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010281204520.11764-100000@war.deltasoft.com>

> I don't have (or have access to) a scanner, so I can't help with scanning 
> in the manuals. But if anyone is trying to repair one of these machines I 
> can pull the manuals out and see if I can sort out what's going on.

Tony, I can pretty much scan anything.  I've got a very nice HP1100a
laser printer/sheet fed scanner.  What I'm going to do is take the manuals
that I've got and turn them into single sided photocopies using a fancy
photocopier I have access to at work.  From there I can take the single
sided copies and merrily feed them through the scanner. :)  I figure I'll
spend far more time doing OCR correction than scanning the pages - which
is the way it's _supposed_ to work. :)  
If you like, I can scan anything you've got that I don't have (or will
have when the machine arrives)

Does anyone here know if Acrobat 4.0 has a better OCR engine than 3.01
does?


ttyl.

g.




From THETechnoid at home.com  Sat Oct 28 15:04:41 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: New Find - system36
In-Reply-To: <20001028181229.19503.qmail@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <20001028195758.LLKG26793.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

A fellow just called me at my work number.  He said he had a complete 36'
in his van he HAD to get rid of as he was getting 7mpg and couldn't get it
out of the van himself.

I offered $20.00 an he took it.  We had to take the door off the house and
remove trim on both sides of the door to get it inside.  It weights
several hundred pounds.

It is a 5360 with a printer and two terminals.  Looks like it can run up
to six terminals total.  I have the documentation and quite a few original
disks as well.

I'm not sure what the power requirements are but it looks like 220vac.  I
might have to get an adapter for the location it is in at present.

Any advice or suggestions would be apreciated.

Thanks guys,

Jeff

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From richard at idcomm.com  Sat Oct 28 15:05:01 2000
From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: Monitor for iSBC 8024
Message-ID: <007301c0411a$5bd4c600$0100a8c0@winbook>

I've not yet found a board-resident monitor for the Intel iSBC 8024 board.  I've got a number of these on hand and have used sadly inadequate resources that worked (barely) for what I've been doing with them, but would like to make it worthwhile writing a set of test scripts for my notebook funcitoning as a terminal attached to the iSBC 8024.  

This board is a Multibus-I type with an 8085, 8251, 8253, 8259, and a pair of 8255's.  Intel shipped a monitor prom which I turned over to a customer many years ago, thinking I'd never need it again ... <sigh> ... I guess you never know.  

I suppose I could always resort to writing my own, but then I'd be unable to used someone else's doc's, and I'd hate to have to reinvent the wheel just for the half-dozen or so of these boards I have left.

Dick

-------------- next part --------------
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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Oct 28 15:02:24 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: INS8154 used in Cytospin
In-Reply-To: <004c01c04110$cc755e60$0100a8c0@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Oct 28, 0 12:56:34 pm
Message-ID: <m13pcBP-000IyHC@p850ug1>

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Oct 28 15:05:08 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: INS8154 used in Cytospin
In-Reply-To: <007f01c0410d$a4108420$030101ac@boll.casema.net> from "Sipke de Wal" at Oct 28, 0 08:33:53 pm
Message-ID: <m13pcE4-000IyHC@p850ug1>

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From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Sat Oct 28 15:25:47 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: INS8154 used in Cytospin
Message-ID: <01bf01c0411e$3fc2a8c0$59779a8d@ajp166>

No,

They are incompatable with several mods and huge pinout difference.
Also the 8155/56 are 8085 muxed bus parts and the 8154 was
National microbus (not muxed).

Allison

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Erlacher <richard@idcomm.com>
To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Date: Saturday, October 28, 2000 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: INS8154 used in Cytospin


>I'll look later for the INS8154, but the Intel 8155 and 8156 were both
RAMs
>with 16 bits of I/O controllable on a bitwise basis like the bits in a
6821
>. . . Could one of those work?
>
>Dick
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Sipke de Wal <sipke@wxs.nl>
>To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
>Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 12:33 PM
>Subject: Re: INS8154 used in Cytospin
>
>
>> This is a National Semiconductor I/O-chip with internal RAM.
>> I don't think you will find easy replacements because this was
>> a very NS-only chip with no second sourcing.
>>
>> It was used in Science of Cambrigde's (Clive Sinclair) MK 14
>>
>> Sipke de Wal
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: abrar wadera <abrarwadera@hotmail.com>
>> To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
>> Cc: <abrar.wadera@del2.siemens.co.in>
>> Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 5:46 PM
>> Subject: INS8154 used in Cytospin
>>
>>
>> > Dear Sirs
>> > We have many cytospins which are centrifuges esed in cytology
>departments
>> > and the peripherals chips used are INS8154N, we are not able to find
any
>of
>> > them from any source. Can you suggest any or some equivalents.
>> >
>> > With Regards
>> >
>> > Abrar
>> >
>________________________________________________________________________
_
>> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
>http://www.hotmail.com.
>> >
>> > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
>> > http://profiles.msn.com.
>> >
>>
>>
>


From richard at idcomm.com  Sat Oct 28 15:43:33 2000
From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: INS8154 used in Cytospin
References: <m13pcBP-000IyHC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <007f01c0411f$bde0ecc0$0100a8c0@winbook>

Well, I checked my 1980 National Semi MCS-48 data book and found not only
that there was no 8154, but that the  8155 and 8156 were not listed (yet)
either.  They did make them, however, because I have them (INS8155,56) among
my parts.

There's apparently a gap in my literature, but I have no later embedded or
microcontroller books that list the MCS-48 product line.  I doubt the part
would appear together with products coming from device families intended to
replace the MCS-48.  It must have lived iwithin a fairly narrow window.

NEC and a few others made the 8155 and '56, so they might have made a
version of the 8154 as well.

Dick

----- Original Message -----
From: Tony Duell <ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: INS8154 used in Cytospin


> >
> > I'll look later for the INS8154, but the Intel 8155 and 8156 were both
RAMs
> > with 16 bits of I/O controllable on a bitwise basis like the bits in a
6821
> > . . . Could one of those work?
>
> Well, certainly not directly (i.e. it's not plug-n-play). The 8154 had a
> few features that I've seen on no other chip (like the addresses to
> set/clear individual bits).
>
> The 8154 also (IIRC) has separate address and data lines on the
> microprocessor bus side. Doesn't the 8155 have a multiplexed bus to link
> to an 8085 (or similar)?
>
> You could probably redesign the instrument to use an 8155 (or an 8156,
> AFAIK the only difference between these is the polarity of the chip
> select input), but it would be a redesign. And maybe not a simple one.
>
> -tony
>
>


From richard at idcomm.com  Sat Oct 28 15:44:34 2000
From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: INS8154 used in Cytospin
References: <01bf01c0411e$3fc2a8c0$59779a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <008501c0411f$e1a12580$0100a8c0@winbook>

That would explain why it wasn't listed among the MCS-48 parts . . .  It
should be "in there" someplace, though.

Dick

----- Original Message -----
From: ajp166 <ajp166@bellatlantic.net>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 2:25 PM
Subject: Re: INS8154 used in Cytospin


> No,
>
> They are incompatable with several mods and huge pinout difference.
> Also the 8155/56 are 8085 muxed bus parts and the 8154 was
> National microbus (not muxed).
>
> Allison
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Erlacher <richard@idcomm.com>
> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
> Date: Saturday, October 28, 2000 3:18 PM
> Subject: Re: INS8154 used in Cytospin
>
>
> >I'll look later for the INS8154, but the Intel 8155 and 8156 were both
> RAMs
> >with 16 bits of I/O controllable on a bitwise basis like the bits in a
> 6821
> >. . . Could one of those work?
> >
> >Dick
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Sipke de Wal <sipke@wxs.nl>
> >To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
> >Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 12:33 PM
> >Subject: Re: INS8154 used in Cytospin
> >
> >
> >> This is a National Semiconductor I/O-chip with internal RAM.
> >> I don't think you will find easy replacements because this was
> >> a very NS-only chip with no second sourcing.
> >>
> >> It was used in Science of Cambrigde's (Clive Sinclair) MK 14
> >>
> >> Sipke de Wal
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: abrar wadera <abrarwadera@hotmail.com>
> >> To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
> >> Cc: <abrar.wadera@del2.siemens.co.in>
> >> Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 5:46 PM
> >> Subject: INS8154 used in Cytospin
> >>
> >>
> >> > Dear Sirs
> >> > We have many cytospins which are centrifuges esed in cytology
> >departments
> >> > and the peripherals chips used are INS8154N, we are not able to find
> any
> >of
> >> > them from any source. Can you suggest any or some equivalents.
> >> >
> >> > With Regards
> >> >
> >> > Abrar
> >> >
> >________________________________________________________________________
> _
> >> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
> >http://www.hotmail.com.
> >> >
> >> > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> >> > http://profiles.msn.com.
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Sat Oct 28 15:55:57 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: Monitor for iSBC 8024
Message-ID: <01e201c04122$73c6dd40$59779a8d@ajp166>

From: Richard Erlacher <richard@idcomm.com>

I've not yet found a board-resident monitor for the Intel iSBC 8024
board.  I've got a number of these on hand and have used sadly inadequate
resources that worked (barely) for what I've been doing with them, but
would like to make it worthwhile writing a set of test scripts for my
notebook funcitoning as a terminal attached to the iSBC 8024.


Find the manual for that.  The code they used it in it.  Also they used
the same monitor
in a lot of products with mostly address changes.

Allison



From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org  Sat Oct 28 16:13:12 2000
From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist layered products
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0010281852060.24867-100000@server.wes.mee.com> from
 Frederik Meerwaldt at "Oct 28, 2000 06:55:25 pm"
Message-ID: <200010282113.e9SLDDS29394@bg-tc-ppp677.monmouth.com>

> > My Sparcstation was never so strange.  I guess Unix is Unix is Unix, but
> > VMS is odd.
> 
> 
> A bit. But it's very nice.
> 
> -- 
> Best Regards,
> 	Freddy
> 
> Geek Code 3.1: GCS s+: a--- C+++ UBOU+++ P-- E--- W++ N w--- V++ PGP- t? 5? tv
> 
> =====================================================================
> Frederik Meerwaldt  ICQ: 83045387  Homepage: http://www.freddym.org
>  Bavaria/Germany              OpenVMS and Unix Howtos and much more
>    FREEBSD, NETBSD, OPENBSD, TRU64, OPENVMS, ULTRIX, BEOS, LINUX

All a matter of exposure and experience.

I went from VAX/VMS v2.0 -->4.2 and then to Unix... 
When I hit vi I often resorted to Wordstar 3.x under CP/M and them
uploaded via kermit...

Now I'm a Unix geek with 13 years sysadmin experience and my DEC skills
are getting rusty.

Bill

-- 
bpechter@monmouth.com    | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10  
                         | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2
                         | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour 

From mcguire at neurotica.com  Sat Oct 28 16:07:26 2000
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: AT&T 7300
In-Reply-To: AT&T 7300 (Mike Kenzie)
References: <20001028155237.GDZF26793.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>
	<002901c04105$bcb00cb0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <14843.16398.284283.866620@phaduka.neurotica.com>

On October 28, Mike Kenzie wrote:
> I stopped by the local recyclers today and they had an AT&T
> 7300 for $40
> Does anyone here know anything about this machine?

  Eric Smith seems to have summed it up pretty well.  I'll just add my
$0.02...I've had a couple of them in my day, including one when they
were almost new back in...oh, I think it was 1985.  If you don't mind
dropping the $40, I'd say go grab it.  I find 7300s (and 3b1s) to be
delightful little machines.  With one of the nicest feeling keyboards
I've ever used, too.


             -Dave McGuire

From lgwalker at look.ca  Sat Oct 28 08:25:19 2000
From: lgwalker at look.ca (Lawrence Walker)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: H-89....
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010280839370.11661-100000@war.deltasoft.com>
References: <39F9D15C.27559.B59866@localhost>
Message-ID: <39FA9B7F.27925.4C7D2A@localhost>



> >  I've got an H-77 dual 8" FDD that I picked up separately from my 
> > Z-89 but assumed it was for the 89 . Was this FDD usually used with
> > it ? 
> > 
> Larry, the only difference (that I know of) between the Z-89 and the
> H-89 is that the Z-89 was a factory built H-89 rebadged Zenth (the
> Heathkit parent at that time).  There may be board changes or other
> changes, but they're basically the same computer.  If you've got
> pictures of those drives I'd like to see them.  
> 
> g.
> 
 OOPS. In going over my old archives I found my question had 
been answered before by Tony Duell and Jeff Kaneko back in 
April/99. Yes it was for the H/Z 89. They were Siemen drives.
Either Altheimers or a case of left hands unfamiliarity with right
hands action. Then again old farts memories do hiccup 
occasionally. Embarassing since it was a very long thread on
Heathkit fdds that segued into a general discussion on FDDs.

Basically if they were kits they were badged H-K, if assembled
Zenith from what I've been able to find out.

ciao		larry

Reply to:
lgwalker@look.ca

From lgwalker at look.ca  Sat Oct 28 08:25:19 2000
From: lgwalker at look.ca (Lawrence Walker)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: H-89....
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010280824050.11661-100000@war.deltasoft.com>
References: <39F9C9F9.31363.98BCC3@localhost>
Message-ID: <39FA9B7F.3468.4C7CFD@localhost>



> >  That's a definite thumbs up !! It might even finally inspire me 
> > enough to get my Z-89 up and running. There has been 
> 
> It's not working?  For shame Larry! :)
> 
 Hang me 'ead in shame. Unfortunately like most collectors with
large inventories there's always a mammoth amount of items on
the "to fix" list and priority comes from inclination. My machines 
are for playing with, not to look at, so I usually immerse myself
in the platform I'm working on at the time I'm repairing it or getting
it up and running. Otherwise the memory banks have you cursing 
out an e.g: CPM machine when it doesn't respond to DOS 
commands or connections. When stymied in my efforts it goes on 
the back shelf until coming to the top of my list again. Lately my
main efforts have been directed to paring down my collection of 
duplicates or uninteresting to me puters and parts. LOL :^)

>  >  Another candidate is the TRS80 m.II which is usually passed
> >  over on TRS80 sites. The wee bit that is available is due to a couple of
> > our european list members.
> 
> Hmm.  Come to think of it, I've NEVER seen a TRS-80 Model II site. 
> There is a VERY good TRS-80 site at http://www.trs-80.com.  It's run
> by Ira Goldklang.  It's probably the single largest collection of
> software for the TRS-80 series of computers that anyone has ever seen.
>  He's looking for a high bandwidth mirror if anyone is interested - I
> guess the site costs him quite a bit to operate.
> 
> g.
> 
 I've seen Ira's site as well as Tim Manns excellent one. 
Hope he can find the mirror. To my mind we could use more
useable stuff like that and much less vanity ones.
 "HI, my name is Heather and I'm into fuzzy animals and myself"

 For TRS80 m.II, Kees Stravers remarkable site has THE
definitive section on the model II

http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/cm/index.html

Fritz Chwolka who's a list regular also has a lot of info on the m.II
Sorry, I couldn't find his URL. (enlighten me Fritz if you see this)
 
ciao		larry

Reply to:
lgwalker@look.ca

From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Sat Oct 28 16:28:27 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: INS8154 used in Cytospin
Message-ID: <01f001c04126$a7efb0c0$59779a8d@ajp166>

From: Richard Erlacher <richard@idcomm.com>


>Well, I checked my 1980 National Semi MCS-48 data book and found not
only
>that there was no 8154, but that the  8155 and 8156 were not listed
(yet)
>either.  They did make them, however, because I have them (INS8155,56)
among
>my parts.


The NS8156/55 were introduced a year or so later.

>would appear together with products coming from device families intended
to
>replace the MCS-48.  It must have lived iwithin a fairly narrow window.


National did the 804x for a while.

>NEC and a few others made the 8155 and '56, so they might have made a
>version of the 8154 as well.


They did not.  the 8154 was an oddball part.

Allison


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Sat Oct 28 16:30:35 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: INS8154 used in Cytospin
Message-ID: <01f101c04126$a86e7db0$59779a8d@ajp166>

From: Richard Erlacher <richard@idcomm.com>


>That would explain why it wasn't listed among the MCS-48 parts . . .  It
>should be "in there" someplace, though.


It was part of the NSC SC/MP product line and as such oddball.
The 8154 with a 74374 otherwise worked fine with the 8748
and offered features that only 8255 and 6810 woud supply
in a single 40 pin package.

Allison

>
>Dick
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: ajp166 <ajp166@bellatlantic.net>
>To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
>Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 2:25 PM
>Subject: Re: INS8154 used in Cytospin
>
>
>> No,
>>
>> They are incompatable with several mods and huge pinout difference.
>> Also the 8155/56 are 8085 muxed bus parts and the 8154 was
>> National microbus (not muxed).
>>
>> Allison
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Richard Erlacher <richard@idcomm.com>
>> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
>> Date: Saturday, October 28, 2000 3:18 PM
>> Subject: Re: INS8154 used in Cytospin
>>
>>
>> >I'll look later for the INS8154, but the Intel 8155 and 8156 were
both
>> RAMs
>> >with 16 bits of I/O controllable on a bitwise basis like the bits in
a
>> 6821
>> >. . . Could one of those work?
>> >
>> >Dick
>> >
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: Sipke de Wal <sipke@wxs.nl>
>> >To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
>> >Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 12:33 PM
>> >Subject: Re: INS8154 used in Cytospin
>> >
>> >
>> >> This is a National Semiconductor I/O-chip with internal RAM.
>> >> I don't think you will find easy replacements because this was
>> >> a very NS-only chip with no second sourcing.
>> >>
>> >> It was used in Science of Cambrigde's (Clive Sinclair) MK 14
>> >>
>> >> Sipke de Wal
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: abrar wadera <abrarwadera@hotmail.com>
>> >> To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
>> >> Cc: <abrar.wadera@del2.siemens.co.in>
>> >> Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 5:46 PM
>> >> Subject: INS8154 used in Cytospin
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Dear Sirs
>> >> > We have many cytospins which are centrifuges esed in cytology
>> >departments
>> >> > and the peripherals chips used are INS8154N, we are not able to
find
>> any
>> >of
>> >> > them from any source. Can you suggest any or some equivalents.
>> >> >
>> >> > With Regards
>> >> >
>> >> > Abrar
>> >> >
>>
>________________________________________________________________________
>> _
>> >> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
>> >http://www.hotmail.com.
>> >> >
>> >> > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile
at
>> >> > http://profiles.msn.com.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>>
>>
>


From mrbill at mrbill.net  Sat Oct 28 19:07:14 2000
From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist layered products
In-Reply-To: <20001028182214.JMLX26793.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>; from THETechnoid@home.com on Sat, Oct 28, 2000 at 02:31:22PM -0400
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001028110418.02ad24b0@208.226.86.10> <20001028182214.JMLX26793.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>
Message-ID: <20001028190714.H18115@mrbill.net>

On Sat, Oct 28, 2000 at 02:31:22PM -0400, THETechnoid@home.com wrote:
> WOW!  Thank you very much.  Your info was just what I needed!  Of course
> I'd like a dozen more like messages.....  I think from here I can work. 
> Thanks again!
> Jeff

Plus, all the docs for VMS are on the web site as well.  Including
installation...

Bill

-- 
Bill Bradford
mrbill@mrbill.net
Austin, TX

From cube1 at home.com  Sat Oct 28 18:39:33 2000
From: cube1 at home.com (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: Multics and CTSS
In-Reply-To: <NEBBIBDKIMIOHBDBOBCIAEAICCAA.SPEDRAJA@mail.ono.es>
References: <200010251547.KAA07136@opal.tseinc.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001028183245.05c4bbc0@cirithi>

To clarify a couple of points, see below...

At 06:46 PM 10/25/00 +0200, you wrote:

> > Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 10:39:51 -0400
> > From: Douglas Quebbeman <dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com>
> > Subject: RE: classiccmp-digest V1 #407

<snip>


>Maybe in my next vacations. :->
>No, seriously, maybe a goal that this tapes could be
>translated to Pc Format like Paul Pierce made with
>IBSYS and PR150, two OS's for the 709 (if I remember
>good...).

IBSYS was for the 709/7090/7094.  PR150 is not quite accurate.  It 
was  IBM-1410-PR155, for the IBM 1410.
Paul also did recoveries on IBM 1410 diagnostics and IBM-1410-PR108, 
another 1410 operating system, and some other tapes as well.  (I went with 
him to get the tape used in the recovery of the 1410 stuff.  ;o)

What was special about what Paul did was that he recovered data from 7 
track tapes, and from tapes that were not, at first blush, perfectly 
readable.  He actually did bit-cell level analysis of the data to recover 
it.  (To get IBM-1410-PR155 actually took two fortuitously identical copies 
of the exact same information -- you talk about luck).

If the CTSS tapes are 7 track, then that is the kind of thing it might 
take.   But they might be 9 track, too.   9 track tape drives, are quite 
common, and it could well be that that is the format of those tapes, 
no?  Some 9 track drives would actually be portable enough (at 100lbs) to 
carry to the facility along with a PC with a SCSI controller to read the tapes.

(I'm a bit far away to do that.  ;-) ).

<snip>


>Well, that's all for now. Thanks for your kindly answer,
>Douglas. Greetings from Spain.
>
>----------
>Sergio Pedraja
>Administracion de Sistemas
>Division de Tecnologia
>Caja Cantabria
>Spain
>----------
>mailto: spedraja@mail.ono.es, spedraja@casyc.es
>----------

---	
Jay R. Jaeger					The Computer Collection
cube1@home.com			visit http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection


From cube1 at home.com  Sat Oct 28 18:57:59 2000
From: cube1 at home.com (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: 7010 / 1410 relationship (RE: Stretch)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001027130506.00adb6e0@popmail.voicenet.com>
References: <000601c04022$f5461350$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20001027090905.00ae1100@popmail.voicenet.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001028185619.05bd3100@cirithi>

The 1410 and 7010 were more than relatives.  They ran the same 
software.  The 7010 was, in essence a 1410 implemented in the technology 
used for the 7090/7094 series machines.

As was pointed out here, the 7030 Stretch was quite a different animal.

Jay Jaeger

At 01:08 PM 10/27/00 -0400, you wrote:
>At 10:34 AM 10/27/00 -0400, you wrote:
>>Very clear concise
>>description.  (This may have been for the 7010?)
>
>The 7010 was a much, much smaller computer. A relative of the 1410 and a 
>commercial machine. The 7030 was the largest of machines at the time and 
>took up a full room that must (from memory) been 2000 square feet. We used 
>a 1401 to create input tapes and print output tapes for it. The largest 
>IBM machine that was sold in quantity at the time was the 7094-II.
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>gene@ehrich.com
>gehrich@tampabay.rr.com
>P.O. Box 3365   Spring Hill Florida   34611-3365
>
>http://www.voicenet.com/~generic
>Computer & Video Game Garage Sale
>
>
>
>

---	
Jay R. Jaeger					The Computer Collection
cube1@home.com			visit http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection


From cube1 at home.com  Sat Oct 28 19:03:02 2000
From: cube1 at home.com (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: VCF 1 Midwest
In-Reply-To: <011401c02fde$54a02340$4e721fd1@default>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001028190224.05c25220@cirithi>

I'd sure be interested, but am not able to volunteer at this point.  Keep 
us posted.

At 04:42 PM 10/6/00 -0500, you wrote:
>Hope to have the event here in the Twicities after the snow leaves ext
>spring (2001).  Still looking for more volunteers to help with the work.
>Also talking with some companies about being cash sponsors for the event
>along with prizes to give away. That's about all I want to give out
>right now until I have things locked down, but more to come.
>John Keys

---	
Jay R. Jaeger					The Computer Collection
cube1@home.com			visit http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection


From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Sat Oct 28 20:35:10 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: AT&T 7300
In-Reply-To: <002901c04105$bcb00cb0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca>
References: <20001028155237.GDZF26793.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001028203510.3b6fcf9e@mailhost.intellistar.net>

At 01:36 PM 10/28/00 -0400, you wrote:
>I stopped by the local recyclers today and they had an AT&T
>7300 for $40
>Does anyone here know anything about this machine?


  Sure, I have several of them but I haven't used one in a while. They're
the same thing as a 3B1 except that the 3B1s usually have a hump on them
that houses a full height hard drive. Many of the 7300s have been field
modified to include the hump and FH drive.  They run UNIX and have a good
set of programs with them. They're usually password protected but unless
someone has "fixed" the OS, it's easy to break into them.  One of the
former list members, Ward Donald Griffiths III <gram@cnct.com>, used to
work on these and is very knowlegdeable about them. Make sure that you get
the mouse, keyboard and monitor for it. I don't think there are any others
that will work on them so you need the original ones.

   Joe

>
>Thay also had an older apple monitor  on the stand for $10
>and a keyboard for the PS/2 model 25 for $5 to complete a
>few partial machines in the basement.
>
>Still no luck finding the VAXstation parts
>
>
>
>


From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Sat Oct 28 20:39:55 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: H-89....
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010280813400.11661-100000@war.deltasoft.co
 m>
References: <200010280343.UAA25329@civic.hal.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001028203955.0a9f1e58@mailhost.intellistar.net>

At 08:15 AM 10/28/00 -0700, Gene wrote:
>> buy the OS. I hand disassembled the H-17 ROM and figured
>> how to read and write to the floppy. I took a 8080 listing
>> for a FIG Forth and put that on it with my disk interface
>Now THAT is dedication. :)
>
>> docs and such that I have as well. Maybe someone local can
>> scan stuff that that I don't have the time to deal with.
>> ( I live in Santa Cruz Ca. ).
>
>This would be great!  Thanks!
>
>g.
>

   Gene,

   It looks like you're getting offers for stuff from all over the place.
It should be a GOOD website.

    Joe


From claudew at sprint.ca  Sat Oct 28 19:58:55 2000
From: claudew at sprint.ca (Claude)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: TRS80 PT210 and other finds...
Message-ID: <39FB764E.C020980F@sprint.ca>

Well I don't post my finds often but I think these are ok for up
north...and for a hamfest, these prices are good...also managed to
unload a ton of non-vintage stuff that accumulates like magic here in my
basement...had to almost give it away, still I was determined not to
bring anything back...except these finds...

I am posting the prices cause it can only maybe help deflate those
"inflated" e-bay prices...these are all canadian $'s...these days
$1can=$0.65-$0.70us...

TRS80 PT210 terminal (original owner/manual works) $10
TRS80 100 portable $10 (needed 2 keys fixed now ok)
TRS80 102 portable $10 (oxydation in power connector now all ok)
1 box full of TRS80 COCO stuff (coco, drives, interface etc...)
including old RS catalogs from early 1980's $5
1 SCSI CDROM tower with 4 NEC caddyless 2X CDdrives $10 (not true
vintage but good find IMO)
1 Xtra clean MAC SE complete $10
1 Eprom programmer PC card/zif socket $10

I am still hunting for a TRS80 model III. I think I am due...

Claude

From richard at idcomm.com  Sat Oct 28 19:53:12 2000
From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: Monitor for iSBC 8024
References: <01e201c04122$73c6dd40$59779a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <000d01c04142$9e1076e0$0100a8c0@winbook>

I have the original manual, and it has no hint of a monitor, aside from one
they sold as a separate product.  I'm planning to use the monitor to test
the various boards I have.

According to the Intel doc's, the 8010,8020, and 8024 boards all used the
same hardware addresses, as did the monitors they sold for them.  That will
serve me well, as I intend to use a script running on a terminal emulator on
the PC in order to verify proper operation of the various features on the
board.


I bought the Intel monitor for the 8020 and 8020-4, which has an 8080A,
while the 8024 has an 8085.  It was not a very nice piece of work, so I'm
hopeful I can find something a bit more up to date.  The Intel monitor was
delivered to the customer who paid for it back in the '70's, and I haven't
seen one since.  I'm just not interested in writing a monitor just for the
at most ten boards I'll have to check out.  In the last 10 years, I've not
encountered even one person who's used these boards.  They were VERY popular
in the late '70's.

Does anybody know the Hi-Tech 'C' compiler for CP/M well enough to know
whether it produces 8080 code?
I was under the impression that it generates Z80 code but recently was told
it has a switch to produce 8080 mnemonics as well.  Now I've got at least
half-a-dozen 'C' compilers for CP/M, any one of which should produce 8080
code, but AFAIK the Hi-tech (Pacific) compiler is the only one that also has
a version for several other CPU's as well, so it would be worth using just
for the exercise.  I could justify writing an original monitor in a 'C'
dialect portable to several MCU's, but not just one.   I might as well do
that in assembler.

Aztec, BDS, Whitesmith, among others, are all history.  <sigh> Maybe the
"small-C" (Hendrix) could be used, since I can write my own code generator.
I'd rather skip that step though.

Dick






----- Original Message -----
From: ajp166 <ajp166@bellatlantic.net>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 2:55 PM
Subject: Re: Monitor for iSBC 8024


> From: Richard Erlacher <richard@idcomm.com>
>
> I've not yet found a board-resident monitor for the Intel iSBC 8024
> board.  I've got a number of these on hand and have used sadly inadequate
> resources that worked (barely) for what I've been doing with them, but
> would like to make it worthwhile writing a set of test scripts for my
> notebook funcitoning as a terminal attached to the iSBC 8024.
>
>
> Find the manual for that.  The code they used it in it.  Also they used
> the same monitor
> in a lot of products with mostly address changes.
>
> Allison
>
>
>


From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com  Sat Oct 28 19:59:33 2000
From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: Fixing machines (was Re: H-89....)
In-Reply-To: <39FA9B7F.3468.4C7CFD@localhost>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010280824050.11661-100000@war.deltasoft.com>
 <39F9C9F9.31363.98BCC3@localhost>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001028175726.02a9b0a0@208.226.86.10>

At 09:25 AM 10/28/00 -0400, Larry wrote:
>  Hang me 'ead in shame. Unfortunately like most collectors with
>large inventories there's always a mammoth amount of items on
>the "to fix" list and priority comes from inclination.

I've discovered this problem is fairly rampant. I'm presently attempting a 
"fix this one and move on" strategy where I spend cycles, concentrate on 
one machine, until its up and running. Then moving on to another. I'm also 
going to be putting together digital pix of the work so hopefully I'll have 
a record to share with others.

--Chuck




From richard at idcomm.com  Sat Oct 28 20:02:49 2000
From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: INS8154 used in Cytospin
References: <01f001c04126$a7efb0c0$59779a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <001901c04143$f584a8a0$0100a8c0@winbook>

please see embedded comments below.

Dick

----- Original Message -----
From: ajp166 <ajp166@bellatlantic.net>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 3:28 PM
Subject: Re: INS8154 used in Cytospin


> From: Richard Erlacher <richard@idcomm.com>
>
>
> >Well, I checked my 1980 National Semi MCS-48 data book and found not
> >only that there was no 8154, but that the  8155 and 8156 were not listed
> >(yet) either.  They did make them, however, because I have them
(INS8155,56)
> >among my parts.
>
>
> The NS8156/55 were introduced a year or so later.
>
> >would appear together with products coming from device families intended
> >to replace the MCS-48.  It must have lived within a fairly narrow window.
>
> National did the 804x for a while.
>
Yes.  That was apparent from the fact they printed this MCS48 catalog.
>
> >NEC and a few others made the 8155 and '56, so they might have made a
> >version of the 8154 as well.
>
> They did not.  the 8154 was an oddball part.
>
National made an extension on the 8048, i.e. the 8050, and the 8035 in the
form of an 8040.  It had 256 bytes of on-board RAM, but otherwise pretty
well compatible with the Intel parts.  They pushed it pretty hard for a year
or two.
>
> Allison
>
>


From leec at slip.net  Sat Oct 28 20:18:15 2000
From: leec at slip.net (Lee Courtney)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: Wierd Stuff note
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001028203510.3b6fcf9e@mailhost.intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <NDBBIDGFALDDAMKPHCMCGEOIDCAA.leec@slip.net>

For those of you in the SF Bay area I wanted to pass along a note from a
visit today (Saturday 10/28) to Wierd Stuff. I saw a badly mauled PDP11-34
in the back for $300 (yea, right). Other than a front panel in good
condition, it was really only a classic DEC rack with a few boards inside
the chassis.

I'm also looking for a keyboard and mouse for a SUN Sparcstation I recently
acquired (thanks Kirk!). I also need a cable to connect a Sony monitor with
a 5 coax connectors on the back (R-G-B and a Sync for VD and HD). Any hints
where I should look (other than wierd stuff and $UN). Mouse Systems which
produced optical mice for SUN workstations seems to no longer be in
business. THanks for any pointers.

Lee Courtney


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Sat Oct 28 20:24:28 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist layered products
Message-ID: <021801c04148$3c441740$59779a8d@ajp166>

From: Bill Pechter <pechter@pechter.dyndns.org>


>> > My Sparcstation was never so strange.  I guess Unix is Unix is Unix,
but
>> > VMS is odd.


;)  From the point of view of someone that went

    OS/8->TOPS10->CP/M->RT-11->RSTS11->VMS

    Unix is odd.

Seriously, I have no beef with unix save for just like DEC OSs are a
culture
thing so it is for unix as well.


Allison


From sipke at wxs.nl  Sat Oct 28 19:32:01 2000
From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: INS8154 used in Cytospin
References: <m13pcE4-000IyHC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <024601c0413f$a7d3e200$030101ac@boll.casema.net>

I Agree with you that MK14 should be preserved! I only
mentioned it in the RE:INS8154 so the folks on the list
cloud get an idea of where this chip was used in.

I've checked the MK14 diagram and it doesn't say anything
about the 8154 being optional but the MK14 has other RAM-chips 
and the 8154 I/O ports are all going directly to the expansion 
connector. So I guess it was optional. 

I personally worked with the Elektor SC/MP stuff .allthoug I've
owned a MK14 for a while. I didt'n like it very much because
the keyboard was lousy and keying in a proggy was hell!

By the way: I'm allmost ready with the Elekor SC/MP emulator
when finaly done I will may it aviable.

Sipke de Wal


----- Original Message ----- 
From: Tony Duell <ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 9:05 PM
Subject: Re: INS8154 used in Cytospin

>snip

> > 
> > It was used in Science of Cambrigde's (Clive Sinclair) MK 14
> 
> I believe it was an option on the MK14, so even if you find an MK14 
> it's not certain the INS8154 will be there. Anyway, MK14s are rare enough 
> that they shouldn't be stripped down.
> 

>snip 


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Sat Oct 28 20:52:00 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist layered products
In-Reply-To: <200010282113.e9SLDDS29394@bg-tc-ppp677.monmouth.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0010281852060.24867-100000@server.wes.mee.com>
 from Frederik Meerwaldt at "Oct 28, 2000 06:55:25 pm"
Message-ID: <v04020a00b6213265a8dc@[192.168.1.5]>

Bill Pechter wrote:
>All a matter of exposure and experience.
>
>I went from VAX/VMS v2.0 -->4.2 and then to Unix...
>When I hit vi I often resorted to Wordstar 3.x under CP/M and them
>uploaded via kermit...

Have you seen the 'joe' editor?  It's my ASCII editor of choice on UNIX
systems, as it uses the Wordstar keybindings.  I hated Wordstar but got
used to the keybindings thanks to various Borland products.

>Now I'm a Unix geek with 13 years sysadmin experience and my DEC skills
>are getting rusty.

Shoot I'm a UNIX SysAdmin by profession, DEC OS's are just my hobby and
these days VMS is my preferred OS!

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|                 http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/              |

From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Sat Oct 28 21:10:11 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: Monitor for iSBC 8024
Message-ID: <021f01c0414d$d6516680$59779a8d@ajp166>

From: Richard Erlacher <richard@idcomm.com>


>I have the original manual, and it has no hint of a monitor, aside from
one
>they sold as a separate product.  I'm planning to use the monitor to
test
>the various boards I have.


Then you dont have the software manual.  My memory of the board was
three books a users manual, one on the hardware, and the software manual.
I know as I loaned out the software manual for my 80/10 years ago and
never saw it again.

>According to the Intel doc's, the 8010,8020, and 8024 boards all used
the
>same hardware addresses, as did the monitors they sold for them.  That
will
>serve me well, as I intend to use a script running on a terminal
emulator on
>the PC in order to verify proper operation of the various features on
the
>board.


As long as you know the addresses and setup for the ports and all
it's pretty simple.

>while the 8024 has an 8085.  It was not a very nice piece of work, so
I'm
>hopeful I can find something a bit more up to date.  The Intel monitor
was
>delivered to the customer who paid for it back in the '70's, and I
haven't
>seen one since.  I'm just not interested in writing a monitor just for
the


They never changed it much save for a bug fix or two through the early
80s.

use the monitor for the SBCs either the 8080 or 8085.  Intel had the same
basic one they used all over the place.

>Does anybody know the Hi-Tech 'C' compiler for CP/M well enough to know
>whether it produces 8080 code?

It does, its a compiler switch.  Crummy code though.

>half-a-dozen 'C' compilers for CP/M, any one of which should produce
8080
>code, but AFAIK the Hi-tech (Pacific) compiler is the only one that also
has
>a version for several other CPU's as well, so it would be worth using
just
>for the exercise.  I could justify writing an original monitor in a 'C'
>dialect portable to several MCU's, but not just one.   I might as well
do
>that in assembler.


It's your pain.  I dream in 8080/85/z80 so its no big deal to write a 1k
monitor.  It's likely easier now as I have a basic monitor on hand that
ive used for years and could be tweeked for that.

Of course any of the published monitors for 8080 like the LLL AMS80
(KILOBAUD) monitor will do as well.  If you have Burskys book
The S100 bus handbook there is a copy of Vector Ones monitor in
there.

A monitor for a a ISBC80xx or BLC80xx is a rather basic thing and
should easily fit in a 2716 (I've done nice ones for 2708!).

>Aztec, BDS, Whitesmith, among others, are all history.  <sigh> Maybe the
>"small-C" (Hendrix) could be used, since I can write my own code
generator.
>I'd rather skip that step though.


small-C _IS 8080_!  that was the original version, it was later that z80
code
generator was created.

Allison


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Sat Oct 28 21:14:55 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: INS8154 used in Cytospin
Message-ID: <022a01c0414e$dc821120$59779a8d@ajp166>

From: Richard Erlacher <richard@idcomm.com>


>National made an extension on the 8048, i.e. the 8050, and the 8035 in
the
>form of an 8040.  It had 256 bytes of on-board RAM, but otherwise pretty
>well compatible with the Intel parts.  They pushed it pretty hard for a
year
>or two.


Signetics did the 8050 as well.

I know I have their manuals and 5 or 10 of the NSC8050s (pull EA and
you have romless usability.  I was NEC single chip product support
during those years.  So from about 76 to 85 I ahve a pretty good
collection of intel or intel compatable vendors docs.

Allison


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Sat Oct 28 21:19:50 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: INS8154 used in Cytospin
Message-ID: <022b01c0414e$dd08a640$59779a8d@ajp166>

>By the way: I'm allmost ready with the Elekor SC/MP emulator
>when finaly done I will may it aviable.


Ok which version of the SC/MP?

    ISP8A500 (PMOS part)
    isp8a600 (aka 8060 NMOS)

    SC/MPII   807x
    (the 8073 was the version with NIBBLE a Tiny BASIC in internal rom)

There were subtle to not so subtle differences.  I have two of the three
(original PMOS and 8073).

Allison



From rdd at smart.net  Sat Oct 28 21:31:29 2000
From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:16 2005
Subject: AT&T 7300
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001028203510.3b6fcf9e@mailhost.intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010282136100.29172-100000@smarty.smart.net>


On Sat, 28 Oct 2000, Joe wrote:
>   Sure, I have several of them but I haven't used one in a while. They're
> the same thing as a 3B1 except that the 3B1s usually have a hump on them

There are some other differences as well, but I don't recall them at
the moment; not major differences, however.  My first UNIX box was a
3B1, and I've still got the machine running, although the original
Micropolis hard drive is no more - which is a pity, as I liked the
sound it made.  I used to get a UUCP newsfeed and mail on my 3B1,
which, I must admit, was more fun that using PPP. :-) Does anyone here
still use UUCP for news and e-mail?

These are fun machines, and there's a fairly large amount of software
available for them, from GCC to Emacs to Tetris... although as someone
pointed out, a lot of the newer, larger, UNIX packages won't run on
them and there's no X windows - e.g., don't expect to run GIMP or
Netscape on one.  However, if you want a nifty, customizeable,
computerized telephone answering machine or something fun to run a BBS
system on, or to use for e-mail and a small newsfeed, a 3B1 will do
rather nicely.  

If you can find a tape drive & controller and ethernet board, grab
them, as the system will be much more useful with them.  Also, the
development set is a must have if you want these machines to be
useful.

> that houses a full height hard drive. Many of the 7300s have been field
> modified to include the hump and FH drive.  They run UNIX and have a good

They run what's basically AT&T System V Unix.  TCP/IP software isn't
included; it's an optional package from Wollengong that's usually
found with the ethernet board.

> set of programs with them. They're usually password protected but unless
> someone has "fixed" the OS, it's easy to break into them.  One of the

AFAIK, the attempts at getting the OS sources released were never
successful - does anyone have any info. about this?  Without hacking
the OS, one can make noticeable security improvements by disabling the
window manager and fixing permissions, etc.

> former list members, Ward Donald Griffiths III <gram@cnct.com>, used to
> work on these and is very knowlegdeable about them. Make sure that you get
> the mouse, keyboard and monitor for it. I don't think there are any others
> that will work on them so you need the original ones.

Erm... getting one without a monitor wouldn't be too easy, as the
monitor is attached to top of the chasis and isn't removeable.
Getting the chasis open is a bit tricky, so go slow with doing that,
as you can break something easily.  For repairs, it's helpful to find
one of the binders containing the set of schematics - these were rare
several years ago, however.  Comp.sys.3b1 used to be a very active
newsgroup; it still exists.

BTW, would anyone here happen to have a set of voice power card
floppies and docs for the 3B1/7300 that they could clone?

Notes: the variable-speed DC fans were known to fail, and result in
melting chasis, so, if you plan to leave yours on, you may wish to
consider replacing the fan, or fans (some systems have one, some two).

--
Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of
All Rights Reserved            Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to
rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd   a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD 







From rdd at smart.net  Sat Oct 28 21:40:18 2000
From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: AT&T 7300
In-Reply-To: <20001028181229.19503.qmail@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010282233320.29172-100000@smarty.smart.net>

On 28 Oct 2000, Eric Smith wrote:
> need to replace the WD1010 HDC chip with a WD2010.

Does anyone know of a good source for WD2010 ICs?  There was also a
hardware hack (the ICUS upgrade?) to add a second HD.

> The C compiler is K&R (non-ANSI), but there is a port of GCC.

Note that to use the port of GCC, one still needs to have the
development set.

> There's no X.  I tried to build Xlib some years back, so that I'd
> be able to run X clients (NOT an X server), but I ran into trouble
> and gave up.

Nice try anyway! :-) How far did you get with this?  

> The definitive web site is:
>     http://unixpc.taronga.com/

Thanks for posting this URL!  It's been a while since I've done much
with my 3B1s... I really should get the second one working again.

--
Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of
All Rights Reserved            Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to
rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd   a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD 





From geneb at deltasoft.com  Sat Oct 28 21:38:27 2000
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: H-89....
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001028203955.0a9f1e58@mailhost.intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010281938140.11893-100000@war.deltasoft.com>

> 
>    It looks like you're getting offers for stuff from all over the place.
> It should be a GOOD website.
> 
That's my hope Joe. 

g.



From richard at idcomm.com  Sat Oct 28 22:36:25 2000
From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: Monitor for iSBC 8024
References: <021f01c0414d$d6516680$59779a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <000d01c04159$744ef400$a1483cd1@winbook>

Please see remarks embedded below.

Dick

----- Original Message -----
From: ajp166 <ajp166@bellatlantic.net>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 8:10 PM
Subject: Re: Monitor for iSBC 8024


> From: Richard Erlacher <richard@idcomm.com>
>
>
> >I have the original manual, and it has no hint of a monitor, aside from
<snip>
> emulator on
> >the PC in order to verify proper operation of the various features on
> the
> >board.
>
>
> As long as you know the addresses and setup for the ports and all
> it's pretty simple.
>
Actually, it's not simple at all to set up the boards with dozens of jumpers
and pin fields for strappable options.  Moreover, while the port locations
are pretty simple to set up in accordance with the "default" settings, there
are numerous things that, while not left to chance, are not completely clear
as described in the doc.
>
> >while the 8024 has an 8085.  It was not a very nice piece of work, so
<snip>
>
> >Does anybody know the Hi-Tech 'C' compiler for CP/M well enough to know
> >whether it produces 8080 code?
>
> It does, its a compiler switch.  Crummy code though.
>
> >half-a-dozen 'C' compilers for CP/M, any one of which should produce
> 8080
> >code, but AFAIK the Hi-tech (Pacific) compiler is the only one that also
> has
> >a version for several other CPU's as well, so it would be worth using
> just
> >for the exercise.  I could justify writing an original monitor in a 'C'
> >dialect portable to several MCU's, but not just one.   I might as well
> do
> >that in assembler.
>
>
> It's your pain.  I dream in 8080/85/z80 so its no big deal to write a 1k
> monitor.  It's likely easier now as I have a basic monitor on hand that
> ive used for years and could be tweeked for that.
>
I try not to dream in those . . . too little market for it any longer.
>
> Of course any of the published monitors for 8080 like the LLL AMS80
> (KILOBAUD) monitor will do as well.  If you have Burskys book
> The S100 bus handbook there is a copy of Vector Ones monitor in
> there.
>
> A monitor for a a ISBC80xx or BLC80xx is a rather basic thing and
> should easily fit in a 2716 (I've done nice ones for 2708!).
>
> >Aztec, BDS, Whitesmith, among others, are all history.  <sigh> Maybe the
> >"small-C" (Hendrix) could be used, since I can write my own code
> generator.
> >I'd rather skip that step though.
>
>
> small-C _IS 8080_!  that was the original version, it was later that z80
> code generator was created.
>
I didn't mean to suggest I want to produce a code generator for those, as
they already exist.  I just don't want to wade into a new compiler if it
doesn't support several commonly used MCU's.  The Hi-Tech compiler is
available in several verisons for several MCU's I am inclined to use.
Learning a set of quirks is one part of the task.  Of course, the code would
have to be cleaned up once the compiler coughs it up.  Perhaps not too much,
though, since it is primarily important that it be able to ensure that all
the I/O bits work, and that the CTC and PIC work correctly.  If the USART
doesn't work right it should be obvious enough just about right away.
>



From jim at calico.litterbox.com  Sat Oct 28 22:45:18 2000
From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: New aquisition
Message-ID: <200010290345.VAA25102@calico.litterbox.com>

Well, I just purchased a VT220 (amber) and a scsi box from Will Jennings.
Cost me $50 and a cardboard box, delivered.  Will's a good guy to deal with.

Happy vax, it now has a console. :)  Of course I have to load the new license
pack somehow.  I have it on a dos floppy, is there any nice way to get my
vaxstation to mount this?
-- 
Jim Strickland
jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
                              BeOS Powered!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

From ncherry at home.net  Sat Oct 28 22:58:43 2000
From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: AT&T 7300
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010282136100.29172-100000@smarty.smart.net>
Message-ID: <39FBA073.DB96BB01@home.net>

The 7300/3B1 was capable of running SYSV R3.1, I had a 3B1 with 3.2
because I worked at the hotline. I was never able to get the ethernet
board so I resorted to Starlan. I still have 1 7300 and an RS232 NAU.

My 3B1 first died in 88, the power supply went. I build a board to convert
a PC power supply to the 3B1 power supply connector. I also added an AC
fan to keep it cool and quiet. I still have the tape drive and probably
the RS232 ports and 8088 board for it. I also have the software.

I seemed to recal being able to reset all the passwords via the menu
system so as long as you could get in you could reset all the passwords.

Oh, I also still have the 8 head mods to the hard drive system. You would
swap in a 2010 for the WD1010 and solder on this mod to get the extra head.
Unfortunately the 3B1 went out the door when the drive died (80M, $939 to
replace). I then started with Linux on a 386SX/16. I still have that one
but the keyboard controller is fried but Linux still runs.

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

From richard at idcomm.com  Sat Oct 28 23:15:27 2000
From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: AT&T 7300
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010282233320.29172-100000@smarty.smart.net>
Message-ID: <002f01c0415e$f1a927e0$a1483cd1@winbook>

There are a couple of not-too-subtle differences between the WD1010 and the
2010.  The latter decoded the SDH register via an unused pin on the 1010 so
you could latch that byte and decode it in order to put the drive select and
head select signals on the cable without having to write code and take the
time to write the value twice.   It also had an extra bit in the high byte
of the cylinder address.  The primary difference, however, was that the 2010
was actually capable of effecting the 56-bit ECC code which the 1010 didn't
support.  Since PC makers never place a high premium on any of these
features, the PC didn't see many of the 2010's but that's a reasonable place
to start looking, since they did appear in some PC controllers.

Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: R. D. Davis <rdd@smart.net>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 8:40 PM
Subject: Re: AT&T 7300


> On 28 Oct 2000, Eric Smith wrote:
> > need to replace the WD1010 HDC chip with a WD2010.
>
> Does anyone know of a good source for WD2010 ICs?  There was also a
> hardware hack (the ICUS upgrade?) to add a second HD.
>
> > The C compiler is K&R (non-ANSI), but there is a port of GCC.
>
> Note that to use the port of GCC, one still needs to have the
> development set.
>
> > There's no X.  I tried to build Xlib some years back, so that I'd
> > be able to run X clients (NOT an X server), but I ran into trouble
> > and gave up.
>
> Nice try anyway! :-) How far did you get with this?
>
> > The definitive web site is:
> >     http://unixpc.taronga.com/
>
> Thanks for posting this URL!  It's been a while since I've done much
> with my 3B1s... I really should get the second one working again.
>
> --
> Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding
of
> All Rights Reserved            Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons
is to
> rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something
like
> http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd   a fence or a tree; trust me, this
works." --RDD
>



From richard at idcomm.com  Sat Oct 28 23:35:57 2000
From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: AT&T 7300
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010282136100.29172-100000@smarty.smart.net> <39FBA073.DB96BB01@home.net>
Message-ID: <003701c04161$bc012a40$a1483cd1@winbook>

I don't see how switching from a 1010 to a 2010 will help with the number of
heads in a controller => drive interface.  Both chips have three bits to
define the head address.  One thing that could be done with the external SDH
register, however, is encode a drive select bit as a head address.  However,
the hardware to do that would already have to be in place.  Most controllers
did it the long slow way, using an external device to generate the head and
drive select signals.  I used several different drives with more than eight
heads, using the drive select in at least one case.  It's merely a matter of
lying to the device with its bit defiitions.  However, the track and sector
ID fields will have a seemingly wrong head address if the fact that a
mapping trick is in place isn't taken into account in the formatting
routine.  Any checks of the contents of the head field in the SDH register
will reflect what the chip knows is the correct number of heads as it has
read it from the drive's sector ID field, and the driver software has to
compensate for that.  If you're in a position to use that signal as a
partitioning vehicle, you're that much ahead of the game.  The user and the
OS will understand much more easily if a physical drive change occurs when a
drive change is signalled in the SDH address.

Dick


----- Original Message -----
From: Neil Cherry <ncherry@home.net>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 9:58 PM
Subject: Re: AT&T 7300


> The 7300/3B1 was capable of running SYSV R3.1, I had a 3B1 with 3.2
> because I worked at the hotline. I was never able to get the ethernet
> board so I resorted to Starlan. I still have 1 7300 and an RS232 NAU.
>
> My 3B1 first died in 88, the power supply went. I build a board to convert
> a PC power supply to the 3B1 power supply connector. I also added an AC
> fan to keep it cool and quiet. I still have the tape drive and probably
> the RS232 ports and 8088 board for it. I also have the software.
>
> I seemed to recal being able to reset all the passwords via the menu
> system so as long as you could get in you could reset all the passwords.
>
> Oh, I also still have the 8 head mods to the hard drive system. You would
> swap in a 2010 for the WD1010 and solder on this mod to get the extra
head.
> Unfortunately the 3B1 went out the door when the drive died (80M, $939 to
> replace). I then started with Linux on a 386SX/16. I still have that one
> but the keyboard controller is fried but Linux still runs.
>
> --
> Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
> http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
> http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
> http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge)
>
>


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Sat Oct 28 23:51:01 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: New aquisition
Message-ID: <001e01c04165$cd296b80$59779a8d@ajp166>

>Happy vax, it now has a console. :)  Of course I have to load the new
license
>pack somehow.  I have it on a dos floppy, is there any nice way to get
my
>vaxstation to mount this?
>--
>Jim Strickland
>jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com


Run VMSlicense and type in the info... it's not that hard.   VMS cant'
mount dos.  The easy way would be to push it through the
PC(or whatever) serial line while emulating a console.

Allison


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Sat Oct 28 23:48:28 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: Monitor for iSBC 8024
Message-ID: <002101c04167$e7100e80$59779a8d@ajp166>

From: Richard Erlacher <richard@idcomm.com>


Use the editor that comes with the mailer, please.

>Actually, it's not simple at all to set up the boards with dozens of
jumpers
>and pin fields for strappable options.  Moreover, while the port
locations
>are pretty simple to set up in accordance with the "default" settings,
there
>are numerous things that, while not left to chance, are not completely
clear
>as described in the doc.


As if I dont know this?  I have an ISBC80/10 and a BLC80204 plus several
Hurikon Multibus boards.  It's a task I've done before along with
designing
for multibus.  Whats the point?  You set up the board to a common config
and with that write a dumb monitor for those addresses.  Added t that
code is some diagnostic stuff to blink leds or toggle lines that would
otherwise do nothing to show there is a cpu and some ram operational
if it doesnt talk to the console.

>> code generator was created.
>>
>I didn't mean to suggest I want to produce a code generator for those,
as
>they already exist.  I just don't want to wade into a new compiler if it
>doesn't support several commonly used MCU's.  The Hi-Tech compiler is


I havent a clue why you said that at all since the origin of the smallc-c
compiler is 8080?  I still have the original DDJ articles with sources.


Allison


From jim at calico.litterbox.com  Sun Oct 29 00:16:22 2000
From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: New aquisition
In-Reply-To: <001e01c04165$cd296b80$59779a8d@ajp166> from "ajp166" at Oct 29, 2000 12:51:01 AM
Message-ID: <200010290516.XAA25380@calico.litterbox.com>

Thanks.  I'll licence VMS and TCP-IP manually and download the rest over 
my net.

> 
> >Happy vax, it now has a console. :)  Of course I have to load the new
> license
> >pack somehow.  I have it on a dos floppy, is there any nice way to get
> my
> >vaxstation to mount this?
> >--
> >Jim Strickland
> >jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
> 
> 
> Run VMSlicense and type in the info... it's not that hard.   VMS cant'
> mount dos.  The easy way would be to push it through the
> PC(or whatever) serial line while emulating a console.
> 
> Allison
> 


-- 
Jim Strickland
jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
                              BeOS Powered!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

From mrbill at mrbill.net  Sun Oct 29 00:19:57 2000
From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: Wierd Stuff note
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIDGFALDDAMKPHCMCGEOIDCAA.leec@slip.net>; from leec@slip.net on Sat, Oct 28, 2000 at 06:18:15PM -0700
References: <3.0.1.16.20001028203510.3b6fcf9e@mailhost.intellistar.net> <NDBBIDGFALDDAMKPHCMCGEOIDCAA.leec@slip.net>
Message-ID: <20001029001957.O18115@mrbill.net>

On Sat, Oct 28, 2000 at 06:18:15PM -0700, Lee Courtney wrote:
> I'm also looking for a keyboard and mouse for a SUN Sparcstation I recently
> acquired (thanks Kirk!). I also need a cable to connect a Sony monitor with
> a 5 coax connectors on the back (R-G-B and a Sync for VD and HD). Any hints
> where I should look (other than wierd stuff and $UN). Mouse Systems which
> produced optical mice for SUN workstations seems to no longer be in
> business. THanks for any pointers.
> Lee Courtney

Lee - email me privately, I've got tons of type4 keyboards and mice and would
be glad to send you a kit.

Bill Bradford
mrbill@sunhelp.org
(also see www.sunhelp.org)

From richard at idcomm.com  Sun Oct 29 00:43:53 2000
From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: Monitor for iSBC 8024
References: <002101c04167$e7100e80$59779a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <005101c0416b$39807580$a1483cd1@winbook>

Please see embedded remarks below.

Dick

----- Original Message -----
From: ajp166 <ajp166@bellatlantic.net>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 10:48 PM
Subject: Re: Monitor for iSBC 8024


> From: Richard Erlacher <richard@idcomm.com>
>
>
> Use the editor that comes with the mailer, please.
>

What???

>
> >Actually, it's not simple at all to set up the boards with dozens of
> jumpers
> >and pin fields for strappable options.  Moreover, while the port
> locations
> >are pretty simple to set up in accordance with the "default" settings,
> there
> >are numerous things that, while not left to chance, are not completely
> clear
> >as described in the doc.
>
>
> As if I dont know this?  I have an ISBC80/10 and a BLC80204 plus several
> Hurikon Multibus boards.  It's a task I've done before along with
> designing
> for multibus.  Whats the point?  You set up the board to a common config
> and with that write a dumb monitor for those addresses.  Added t that
> code is some diagnostic stuff to blink leds or toggle lines that would
> otherwise do nothing to show there is a cpu and some ram operational
> if it doesnt talk to the console.
>
> >> code generator was created.
> >>
> >I didn't mean to suggest I want to produce a code generator for those,
> as
> >they already exist.  I just don't want to wade into a new compiler if it
> >doesn't support several commonly used MCU's.  The Hi-Tech compiler is
>
>
> I havent a clue why you said that at all since the origin of the smallc-c
> compiler is 8080?  I still have the original DDJ articles with sources.
>
What I said (I thought) was that I don't want to fiddle with small-C to the
extent of writing a new code generator for the 'HC11, 'HC05's, 805x-series,
PIC, etc, since Hi-Tech already has a code generator for their compiler for
each of those.  It would be a BIG job to do that for the Hendrix compiler,
reduced though it is, since what's needed is a general enough compiler that
once I write a debug monitor based on some existing model I already have and
know.  It's not enough that the 8080 and Z80 are already supported, since
I'll only need to use the 8080, which, BTW, it's not obvious that the
Hi-Tech 'C' supports.  As I said, if I'm going to wander into the quagmire,
I want to be using a compiler that covers most of the MCU's I'll be using in
the near future.  I'm quite sure nobody is going to hire me to generate code
for the Z80 or 8080.  I've been known to write code in assembler as well,
but haven't done anything for hire in about 10 years that has required Z80
or 8080 coding.

However, if the Hi-Tech/Pacific 'C' compiler doesn't support 8080/8085 (it
definitely supports Z80) then the small-'C' is still a candidate, but only
once I've convinced myself that I want to create some new code generators to
support those other MCU's.  I also need to cover the TI DSP's.  I am not
even sure small-'C' will be adequate, though I see no reason it wouldn't
handle most small MCU's.
>
> Allison
>
>


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Sun Oct 29 01:52:26 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: New aquisition
In-Reply-To: <200010290516.XAA25380@calico.litterbox.com>
References: <001e01c04165$cd296b80$59779a8d@ajp166> from "ajp166" at Oct
 29, 2000 12:51:01 AM
Message-ID: <v04020a02b621792347c4@[192.168.1.5]>

>Thanks.  I'll licence VMS and TCP-IP manually and download the rest over
>my net.

Load those manually.  Then telnet in and cut and past the other licenses
you want into the telnet window.  I do this using NiftyTelnet on a Mac.
Once you've got your first VMS box up having a HD ready with the license
PAKs ib it when you go to load another system is the way to go.  That way
you just mount the drive and run the COM file with the license PAKs.

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|                 http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/              |

From lgwalker at look.ca  Sun Oct 29 01:13:02 2000
From: lgwalker at look.ca (Lawrence Walker)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: Fixing machines (was Re: H-89....)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001028175726.02a9b0a0@208.226.86.10>
References: <39FA9B7F.3468.4C7CFD@localhost>
Message-ID: <39FB87AE.23121.26E94DA@localhost>



> At 09:25 AM 10/28/00 -0400, Larry wrote:
> >  Hang me 'ead in shame. Unfortunately like most collectors with
> >large inventories there's always a mammoth amount of items on
> >the "to fix" list and priority comes from inclination.
> 
> I've discovered this problem is fairly rampant. I'm presently
> attempting a "fix this one and move on" strategy where I spend cycles,
> concentrate on one machine, until its up and running. Then moving on
> to another. I'm also going to be putting together digital pix of the
> work so hopefully I'll have a record to share with others.
> 
> --Chuck
>  
 That would be great. Will it also include a wav file recording the 
cussin' . " #!@#%$@%^#^% machine I'm gonna throw you out the 
window  A bloody sadist must have designed it !! "  :^)

ciao		larry



Reply to:
lgwalker@look.ca

From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Sun Oct 29 02:18:55 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: I'm back! (and other things)
In-Reply-To: <F184ccYTjr8cU6xfPTe000035f7@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <l03102802b6218d181aab@[192.168.1.4]>

>First of all I'd just like to say a big hello to all the group members. Yes,
>I did make it through boot camp, & now I'm up in Groton for sub school.

My one sub joke, do you know where the headlights are on a sub?

In the head.

>Anyway, I was wondering if anybody had a working Apple Newton 2100 (or
>upgraded 2000) with all of the stuff it came with (dock station, CD, stylus,
>manuals, etc.) that they would be willing to let go for cheap. Can you help
>me?

I don't have one, but just FYI a Newton 2100 is still worth about $500 and
much in demand.



From dpeschel at eskimo.com  Sun Oct 29 02:40:56 2000
From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: New finds & the Woz!
In-Reply-To: <OE58apzhad2VqKwRPQI000003e0@hotmail.com> from "Jason McBrien" at Oct 25, 2000 12:16:27 PM
Message-ID: <200010290840.BAA16972@eskimo.com>

> Last Sunday I went to see the Woz speak at the Mac Group of Detroit. =
> Fascinating speaker, if anyone has the chance to see him I highly =
> reccomend it. He talked in-depth about working at TI, designing Breakout =
> with Steve Jobs for Atari, and designing his own computers at the =
> Homebrew Computer Club. Most fascinating factoid: He was inspired to =
> make his first TV-display terminal when he paid a visit to Captain =
> Crunch and saw that he had a Teletype in his apartment, and was "Talking =
> to some guys in Boston!" over Arpanet.

Did he talk about his TV jammer or the first version of Breakout for the
Apple ][?    He mentioned them in an interview he did for Call A.P.P.L.E. magazine.

The TV jammer was very small and could easily be concealed.  He used it to
train his housemates to adopt wierd poses.  He would jam the TV, they would
attempt to fix it, he would unjam it, then he would jam it again later and
make them do something more drastic than the last time.  It began with his
housemates hitting the TV, but eventually he had one person sitting on top
of the TV blocking the screen with his legs!

The first version of Breakout was mostly the same as LITTLE BRICK OUT on
the DOS 3.3 System Master disk except for the cheat mode and the insulting
judgement of your score.  (The finished program said things like, "YOUR
SCORE IS NOT TOO BAD. KEEP TRYING" but the beta version said, "YOUR SCORE IS
PURE SHIT.")

-- Derek

From eric at brouhaha.com  Sun Oct 29 02:56:45 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: AT&T 7300
In-Reply-To: <003701c04161$bc012a40$a1483cd1@winbook> (richard@idcomm.com)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010282136100.29172-100000@smarty.smart.net> <39FBA073.DB96BB01@home.net> <003701c04161$bc012a40$a1483cd1@winbook>
Message-ID: <20001029085645.1178.qmail@brouhaha.com>

"Richard Erlacher" <richard@idcomm.com> wrote:
> I don't see how switching from a 1010 to a 2010 will help with the number of
> heads in a controller => drive interface.  Both chips have three bits to
> define the head address.  One thing that could be done with the external SDH
> register, however, is encode a drive select bit as a head address.

Correct.  The only reason to use a WD2010 in an AT&T 7300 or 3B1 is that
the WD2010 supports up to 2048 cylinders, while the WD1010 only supported
1024.  If you use a Maxtor XT2190 or equivalent, which as 1224 cylinders,
you lose 200 cylinders if you only have the WD1010.

The hack to support more than eight heads (such as 15 for the aforementioned
XT2190) did use external logic to produce the most significant head select
line.  This had the consequence that the address headers on the disk for
heads 0 and 8 were identical, thus if you tried to read with head 0 but
the most significant head select line was stuck high, it would happily
read from head 8 instead with no way to tell that it was getting the
wrong data.  Similarly for the other six cases, and for writing.

IIRC, Intel second-sourced the WD1010 and WD2010 as the i82062 and i82064.

From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Sun Oct 29 07:33:02 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: AT&T 7300
In-Reply-To: <39FBA073.DB96BB01@home.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010282136100.29172-100000@smarty.smart.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001029083302.35572374@mailhost.intellistar.net>

At 11:58 PM 10/28/00 -0400, Neil wrote:
>The 7300/3B1 was capable of running SYSV R3.1, I had a 3B1 with 3.2
>because I worked at the hotline. I was never able to get the ethernet
>board so I resorted to Starlan. I still have 1 7300 and an RS232 NAU.
>
>My 3B1 first died in 88, the power supply went. I build a board to convert
>a PC power supply to the 3B1 power supply connector. I also added an AC
>fan to keep it cool and quiet.

   The variable speed fan used in them was quiet but very prone to failing
and causing the power supply to go into terminal melt down, I had forgotten
about that. Replacing the fan with an AC powered one was highly recommended.

>
>I seemed to recal being able to reset all the passwords via the menu
>system so as long as you could get in you could reset all the passwords.

   Correct, I seem to remember that TUTOR, ADMIN and INSTALL would get you
into any machine that hadn't had the  OS fixed. One of mine has the OS
fixed and I still haven't figured out how to get into it but I haven't
tried very hard either since I have two with the "broken" OS.

>
>Oh, I also still have the 8 head mods to the hard drive system. You would
>swap in a 2010 for the WD1010 and solder on this mod to get the extra head.


   Replacing the WD1010 with a 2010 allowed you to use a hard drive with 8
heads and a resulting larger capacity. I think there were also some mods to
increase the data transfer rate too. WD2010s are widely available on
surplus/scrap disk drive controllers. This mod and many others used to be
posted on the net. I think I have them all archived, let me know if you
have trouble finding them and I'll E-mail them to you.


   Joe


From ncherry at home.net  Sun Oct 29 07:23:58 2000
From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: AT&T 7300
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010282136100.29172-100000@smarty.smart.net> <3.0.1.16.20001029083302.35572374@mailhost.intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <39FC24EE.8CBD2308@home.net>

Joe wrote:
> 
> At 11:58 PM 10/28/00 -0400, Neil wrote:
> >The 7300/3B1 was capable of running SYSV R3.1, I had a 3B1 with 3.2

> >I seemed to recal being able to reset all the passwords via the menu
> >system so as long as you could get in you could reset all the passwords.
> 
>    Correct, I seem to remember that TUTOR, ADMIN and INSTALL would get you
> into any machine that hadn't had the  OS fixed. One of mine has the OS
> fixed and I still haven't figured out how to get into it but I haven't
> tried very hard either since I have two with the "broken" OS.

You could also boot a systems disk and mount / . Once it was mounted you would
use vi to edit the /etc/passwd file.

> >Oh, I also still have the 8 head mods to the hard drive system. You would
> >swap in a 2010 for the WD1010 and solder on this mod to get the extra head.
> 
>    Replacing the WD1010 with a 2010 allowed you to use a hard drive with 8
> heads and a resulting larger capacity. I think there were also some mods to
> increase the data transfer rate too. WD2010s are widely available on
> surplus/scrap disk drive controllers. This mod and many others used to be
> posted on the net. I think I have them all archived, let me know if you
> have trouble finding them and I'll E-mail them to you.

As some else pointed out, the WD2010 got you the extra cylinders (2048)
the other mod (a pal, which I have) got you the extra head bit.

BTW: I also archived various messages (dead tree format), I also have the
hardware manual.

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org  Sun Oct 29 07:32:51 2000
From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist layered products
In-Reply-To: <v04020a00b6213265a8dc@[192.168.1.5]> from "Zane H. Healy" at "Oct
 28, 2000 06:52:00 pm"
Message-ID: <200010291332.e9TDWpM02689@bg-tc-ppp821.monmouth.com>

> Bill Pechter wrote:
> >All a matter of exposure and experience.
> >
> >I went from VAX/VMS v2.0 -->4.2 and then to Unix...
> >When I hit vi I often resorted to Wordstar 3.x under CP/M and them
> >uploaded via kermit...
> 
> Have you seen the 'joe' editor?  It's my ASCII editor of choice on UNIX
> systems, as it uses the Wordstar keybindings.  I hated Wordstar but got
> used to the keybindings thanks to various Borland products.
> 
> >Now I'm a Unix geek with 13 years sysadmin experience and my DEC skills
> >are getting rusty.
> 
> Shoot I'm a UNIX SysAdmin by profession, DEC OS's are just my hobby and
> these days VMS is my preferred OS!
> 
> 			Zane

See... that's why AT&T and BSD had to hook students in college.
If they got VAX/VMS or TOPS10 or TOPS20 in college it was much harder
for the Unix virus to infect them.  If they started with Unix they got
the idea every OS had to be Unix-like to be good.

Unfortunately, OS varieties seem to be dwindling as the Windows or Unix
varients push the others out of the data centers.  Even IBM seems to be
aiding this movement.  (They killed OS/2 on PPC and adopted Linux and AIX --
didn't they).

--Bill

All the rest of us have is this mailing list, and alt.Folklore.computers.

-- 
bpechter@monmouth.com    | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10  
                         | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2
                         | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour 

From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Sun Oct 29 09:30:08 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: AT&T 7300
In-Reply-To: <39FC24EE.8CBD2308@home.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010282136100.29172-100000@smarty.smart.net>
 <3.0.1.16.20001029083302.35572374@mailhost.intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001029103008.4207981c@mailhost.intellistar.net>

At 08:23 AM 10/29/00 -0500, Neil wrote:
>Joe wrote:
>> 
>> At 11:58 PM 10/28/00 -0400, Neil wrote:
>> >The 7300/3B1 was capable of running SYSV R3.1, I had a 3B1 with 3.2
>
>> >I seemed to recal being able to reset all the passwords via the menu
>> >system so as long as you could get in you could reset all the passwords.
>> 
>>    Correct, I seem to remember that TUTOR, ADMIN and INSTALL would get you
>> into any machine that hadn't had the  OS fixed. One of mine has the OS
>> fixed and I still haven't figured out how to get into it but I haven't
>> tried very hard either since I have two with the "broken" OS.
>
>You could also boot a systems disk and mount / . Once it was mounted you
would
>use vi to edit the /etc/passwd file.

   Yes, IF you have a systems disk! I didn't get any docs or disks till I
had collected four or five of the machines even then the first systems disk
that I got was corrupted and wouldn't boot. I don't know if I ever got a
working systems disk.


>
>> >Oh, I also still have the 8 head mods to the hard drive system. You would
>> >swap in a 2010 for the WD1010 and solder on this mod to get the extra
head.
>> 
>>    Replacing the WD1010 with a 2010 allowed you to use a hard drive with 8
>> heads and a resulting larger capacity. I think there were also some mods to
>> increase the data transfer rate too. WD2010s are widely available on
>> surplus/scrap disk drive controllers. This mod and many others used to be
>> posted on the net. I think I have them all archived, let me know if you
>> have trouble finding them and I'll E-mail them to you.
>
>As some else pointed out, the WD2010 got you the extra cylinders (2048)
>the other mod (a pal, which I have) got you the extra head bit.

   OK I knew it was something like that. The point is that there a number
of mods that you can do to them to add bigger and more drives, more
reliaable fans, etc.  There is (or was) a lot of mods and info about them
scattered around the net. I still check the AT&T news-groups but they're
pretty much dead now.

  Do you have the logic equations for the PAL? I don't think I have them
but I recently got a PAL programmer so I could roll my own if I had the
equations.


>
>BTW: I also archived various messages 


>(dead tree format),

   That's an interesting term. I've never heard that before.

> I also have the
>hardware manual.

   I'd like to get a copy of that. Someone was supposed to be putting it on
CD-disk several years ago and I bought a copy but never got it.  I have a
number of other manuals for the 7300 and I think I may have the
developement software. I need to go through the stuff and make a list of
what I have.

   Joe


From sipke at wxs.nl  Sun Oct 29 08:57:00 2000
From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: INS8154 used in Cytospin
References: <022b01c0414e$dd08a640$59779a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <029601c041b8$7e13f940$030101ac@boll.casema.net>

For the emulator the type doesn't matter, they are code compatible.
But 20+ years hence, on the project,  I've used both types
At first only SC/MP I was aviable but I blew one of
the flags so I switched to SC/MP II later.

The Elektor project came in two versions. One with
binary toggles (dip-switches) and led's, and a second  with a 
hexadecimal keyboard and 7-segments display and a monitor
in ROM called  "ELBUG"

I've made both projects but lost the latter (gave it away 18y ago)
when it died on me. :-(

The first project was used by some friends of my for a while
to make light-effects in a disco (~15 years ago).

I still have the first project board and it was ECO-ed to a
SC/MP II version.  However it is in a terrible state now and 
needs to be fixed-up a bit.

The emulator copies the first (binary sw.+ led) version.
If you are interested in the "alpha version" of the emulator
let me know. It still has problems but it works.
My goal is to get it fully running by April 2001 because that
will be the 25th aniversary of the SC/MP chip

It's written in VisalBasic 6.0 so you'll need the VB6 runtimes
as well. I'm working on the doc's right now but thats in dutch and won't
do you any good I guess. Allthoug the opcode-matrix and opcode tables
may be helpfull. 

Sipke de Wal

----- Original Message ----- 
From: ajp166 <ajp166@bellatlantic.net>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2000 3:19 AM
Subject: Re: INS8154 used in Cytospin


> >By the way: I'm allmost ready with the Elekor SC/MP emulator
> >when finaly done I will may it aviable.
> 
> 
> Ok which version of the SC/MP?
> 
>     ISP8A500 (PMOS part)
>     isp8a600 (aka 8060 NMOS)
> 
>     SC/MPII   807x
>     (the 8073 was the version with NIBBLE a Tiny BASIC in internal rom)
> 
> There were subtle to not so subtle differences.  I have two of the three
> (original PMOS and 8073).
> 
> Allison
> 
> 


From at258 at osfn.org  Sun Oct 29 09:11:26 2000
From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: I'm back! (and other things)
In-Reply-To: <F184ccYTjr8cU6xfPTe000035f7@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.1001029100852.2002B-100000@osfn.org>


You might bear in mind that RCS/RI has their Open House 11/18 and 12/16 
and ours is 12/3.  Groton is only about 65 miles from Providence, and 
maybe 40 from us.

On Fri, 27 Oct 2000, David Vohs wrote:

> First of all I'd just like to say a big hello to all the group members. Yes, 
> I did make it through boot camp, & now I'm up in Groton for sub school.
> 
> Anyway, I was wondering if anybody had a working Apple Newton 2100 (or 
> upgraded 2000) with all of the stuff it came with (dock station, CD, stylus, 
> manuals, etc.) that they would be willing to let go for cheap. Can you help 
> me?
> 
> Also, if the Newton has the keyboard, I don't want it, but if it has a carry 
> case, I'll take it.
> ____________________________________________________________
> David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian.
> Home page: http://www.geocities.com/netsurfer_x1/
> 
> Computer Collection:
> 
> "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, MPS-801.
> "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II.
> "Delorean": TI-99/4A, TI Speech Synthesizer.
> "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable.
> "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3, Disto 512K RAM board.
> "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000.
> ____________________________________________________________
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
> 
> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at 
> http://profiles.msn.com.
> 
> 

M. K. Peirce
Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc.
215 Shady Lea Road,
North Kingstown, RI 02852

"Casta est qui nemo rogavit."
              
              - Ovid


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Oct 29 09:34:41 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: INS8154 used in Cytospin
In-Reply-To: <024601c0413f$a7d3e200$030101ac@boll.casema.net> from "Sipke de Wal" at Oct 29, 0 02:32:01 am
Message-ID: <m13puTs-000IyHC@p850ug1>

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Oct 29 09:46:00 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: AT&T 7300
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010282233320.29172-100000@smarty.smart.net> from "R. D. Davis" at Oct 28, 0 10:40:18 pm
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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Oct 29 09:41:44 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: Fixing machines (was Re: H-89....)
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001028175726.02a9b0a0@208.226.86.10> from "Chuck McManis" at Oct 28, 0 05:59:33 pm
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From whdawson at mlynk.com  Sun Oct 29 10:52:21 2000
From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: DSQD floppy drives needed for KAYPRO II with Advent Turbo Rom
Message-ID: <000101c041c8$9ad21de0$f09e72d1@cobweb.net>

Anyone on the list have one or two DSQD (DD,96TPI) they can spare at a
reasonable cost?

I have a Kaypro II with the Advent Turbo Rom and would like to take
advantage of its capabilities.

Thanks, Don, for all the help.

Bill


From broekh at interchange.ubc.ca  Sun Oct 29 11:48:21 2000
From: broekh at interchange.ubc.ca (Henry Broekhuyse)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: DSQD floppy drives needed for KAYPRO II with Advent Turbo Rom
In-Reply-To: <000101c041c8$9ad21de0$f09e72d1@cobweb.net>
Message-ID: <000501c041d0$6dce1800$6401a8c0@thinkpad>

The Tandon 101-4 is available for $9.00 at
http://www.cadigital.com/flopdriv.htm.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org
> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Bill Dawson
> Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2000 8:52 AM
> To: Classiccmp@Classiccmp. Org
> Subject: DSQD floppy drives needed for KAYPRO II with Advent Turbo Rom
>
>
> Anyone on the list have one or two DSQD (DD,96TPI) they can spare at a
> reasonable cost?
>
> I have a Kaypro II with the Advent Turbo Rom and would like to take
> advantage of its capabilities.


From Innfogra at aol.com  Sun Oct 29 12:24:50 2000
From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: SMC 2010, 2009 & 3007 dip chips???
Message-ID: <b3.26c6ddf.272dc572@aol.com>

The 2010 discussion is interesting to me. 

I have a SMC 2010B with a date code of 7736 in Ceramic with gold legs. Is 
this a second source of the Western Digital or something different? 

I also have a couple of similar chips by SMC, a Plastic/gold 2009H with a 
date code of 7942D,
and a Plastic/gold 3007-A01 with a date code of 7852A. This one has a P.N. of 
27-001 on it also and is a 28 pin dip.

The first two, the 2010 and 2009 are 40 pin dips.

All seem to be limited production run chips as I have not seen others of them.

Paxton

From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Sun Oct 29 12:39:51 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: DSQD floppy drives needed for KAYPRO II with Advent Turbo Rom
Message-ID: <005c01c041d9$26c92900$59779a8d@ajp166>

From: Bill Dawson <whdawson@mlynk.com>

>Anyone on the list have one or two DSQD (DD,96TPI) they can spare at a
>reasonable cost?


the best choice is FD55GFV or the FD55E series.  I happen to use the GFV.
Before going to 3.5' drives.

Also you need the drive personality board or turborom will not run in
other
than 40 track mode.

If you have trouble finding a suitable set of drives let me know.

I may add that I kept a 360k (DD48tpi) in the system as that is common
media (odd disk finds I'd like to read with uniform).

Also you can use 3.5" floppies (anyone that has jumper or switch for
DS0-3).
Use them with 720k media and it's nice.  Another trick is to put a 3.5"
drive
internal and treat it like a hard disk.  This is my current config and
that gives
me  roughly 1.8mb of space (A:781k, B:360k, C: 781k).  One of the CP/M
oddities is once you get drive size orver 500k space as a problem seems
to drop off quickly as an issue.

Allison


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Sun Oct 29 12:54:55 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: Monitor for iSBC 8024
Message-ID: <005d01c041d9$bcee81f0$59779a8d@ajp166>

From: Richard Erlacher <richard@idcomm.com>
>> From: Richard Erlacher <richard@idcomm.com>
>>
>>
>> Use the editor that comes with the mailer, please.
>>
>
>What???


Unless your system is severely crippled your Email has an
editor that will allow your to strip the excess non relevent text.
Try it, make it easier to read on the other end.

>> I havent a clue why you said that at all since the origin of the
smallc-c
>> compiler is 8080?  I still have the original DDJ articles with
sources.
>>
>What I said (I thought) was that I don't want to fiddle with small-C to
the
>extent of writing a new code generator for the 'HC11, 'HC05's,
805x-series,
>PIC, etc, since Hi-Tech already has a code generator for their compiler
for


No problem with that.  But I thought the initial problem was testing a
bunch
of ISBC8020s?  Where did all the other excess about other cpus come
into that?

>each of those.  It would be a BIG job to do that for the Hendrix
compiler,
>reduced though it is, since what's needed is a general enough compiler
that
>once I write a debug monitor based on some existing model I already have
and


I wouldn't know, I did did the later version for Z80 with TDL opcodes.

>know.  It's not enough that the 8080 and Z80 are already supported,
since


Also 8088 and maybe later.

>I'll only need to use the 8080, which, BTW, it's not obvious that the
>Hi-Tech 'C' supports.  As I said, if I'm going to wander into the
quagmire,


I avoid the quagmire and use asm.

>the near future.  I'm quite sure nobody is going to hire me to generate
code
>for the Z80 or 8080.  I've been known to write code in assembler as
well,
>but haven't done anything for hire in about 10 years that has required
Z80
>or 8080 coding.


While I understand the desire it's all outside the scope of the original
problem to test and apparently use a bunch of 8085 multibus cards.

Oh, z80 is still out there as Z180, Z380 and Rabbit for embedded
apps and CPU library cores in gate arrays.

Allison



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Oct 29 12:48:53 2000
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: DSQD floppy drives needed for KAYPRO II with Advent Turbo Rom
In-Reply-To: <000101c041c8$9ad21de0$f09e72d1@cobweb.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010291044230.6757-100000@lanshark.lanminds.com>

On Sun, 29 Oct 2000, Bill Dawson wrote:
> Anyone on the list have one or two DSQD (DD,96TPI) they can spare at a
> reasonable cost?

For MOST situations, MOST 1.2M drives can be configured as a
substitute.  You want to keep the rotational speed at 300RPM, but go to
the 96TPI step, and keep the write current at the "360K" level.

However, using the "right" drive is always a little easier.
Do you need full height or half height?


For full height, my favorite is the Tandon TM100-4.  (If you run into
TM100-4M, set them aside - those are 100TPI instead of 96TPI!)

For half height, I like the Shugart/Panasonic 465, although not everyone
is happy with those.

--
Fred Cisin                      cisin@xenosoft.com
XenoSoft                        http://www.xenosoft.com
PO Box 1236                     (510) 558-9366
Berkeley, CA 94701-1236


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Oct 29 12:59:02 2000
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: DSQD floppy drives needed for KAYPRO II with Advent Turbo Rom
In-Reply-To: <005c01c041d9$26c92900$59779a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010291056340.6757-100000@lanshark.lanminds.com>

On Sun, 29 Oct 2000, ajp166 wrote:
> >Anyone on the list have one or two DSQD (DD,96TPI) they can spare at a
> >reasonable cost?
> the best choice is FD55GFV or the FD55E series.  I happen to use the GFV.

Do you prefer the Teac 55GFV (1.2M) over the 55F (720K)?


> Also you can use 3.5" floppies (anyone that has jumper or switch for
> DS0-3).
> Use them with 720k media and it's nice.  Another trick is to put a 3.5"

Good point!  720K 3.5" tends to be a lot more convenient for media and
withstanding abuse than 720K 5.25"

--
Fred Cisin                      cisin@xenosoft.com
XenoSoft                        http://www.xenosoft.com
PO Box 1236                     (510) 558-9366
Berkeley, CA 94701-1236


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Sun Oct 29 12:56:06 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: SMC 2010, 2009 & 3007 dip chips???
Message-ID: <006201c041db$d6f09c30$59779a8d@ajp166>

From: Innfogra@aol.com <Innfogra@aol.com>


>I have a SMC 2010B with a date code of 7736 in Ceramic with gold legs.
Is
>this a second source of the Western Digital or something different?


SMC was the WD second source and at times prime delivery.

Allison



From jhellige at earthlink.net  Sun Oct 29 13:11:37 2000
From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: DSQD floppy drives needed for KAYPRO II with Advent Turbo Rom
In-Reply-To: <000101c041c8$9ad21de0$f09e72d1@cobweb.net>
References: <000101c041c8$9ad21de0$f09e72d1@cobweb.net>
Message-ID: <a05001900b62225a4cf1a@[168.191.216.121]>

>Anyone on the list have one or two DSQD (DD,96TPI) they can spare at a
>reasonable cost?

	You could try the Mitsubishi 4853 and 4853-1 80track QD 
drives, as used in the TRS-80 Model 2000.  I've seen mention in the 
past though that the 4853-1 has trouble using DD disks with hubrings. 
I've also seen mention of the Mitsubishi 504B312U being used as a 
substitute for these two drives, though I've never been able to 
verify that model/part number as being valid.

	Jeff
-- 
            Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4
        Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems:
                 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757

From jhellige at earthlink.net  Sun Oct 29 13:14:03 2000
From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: DSQD floppy drives needed for KAYPRO II with Advent Turbo Rom
In-Reply-To: 
 <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010291044230.6757-100000@lanshark.lanminds.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010291044230.6757-100000@lanshark.lanminds.com>
Message-ID: <a05001901b622270020cf@[168.191.215.147]>

>For half height, I like the Shugart/Panasonic 465, although not everyone
>is happy with those.

	I've seen the Shugart 465 used in some Altos 586T Xenix-based 
servers.  Interesting machine with a trapezoid shaped case and 
numerous Z-80's handling both the console and disk I/O.

	Jeff
-- 
            Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4
        Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems:
                 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757

From mcguire at neurotica.com  Sun Oct 29 13:52:24 2000
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: Monitor for iSBC 8024
In-Reply-To: Re: Monitor for iSBC 8024 (ajp166)
References: <005d01c041d9$bcee81f0$59779a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <14844.32760.769710.245238@phaduka.neurotica.com>

On October 29, ajp166 wrote:
> >the near future.  I'm quite sure nobody is going to hire me to generate
> code
> >for the Z80 or 8080.  I've been known to write code in assembler as
> well,
> >but haven't done anything for hire in about 10 years that has required
> Z80
> >or 8080 coding.
> 
> 
> While I understand the desire it's all outside the scope of the original
> problem to test and apparently use a bunch of 8085 multibus cards.
> 
> Oh, z80 is still out there as Z180, Z380 and Rabbit for embedded
> apps and CPU library cores in gate arrays.

  And as the plain ole Z80 as well.  The embedded systems world is
crazy about it, using it all over the place.  I know a guy (younger
fellow, just out of college, only learned what the college decided to
teach him, very naive) who works for a defense contractor...sent me
email the other day asking if I'd see the neat "NEW" processor called
the Z80.  What a great embedded processor it is, he babbled.  He was
quite pleased that someone finally came out with a really nice cpu that
had an instruction set that made sense for the embedded world to use.
He just hates the PIC and the 8051. (I don't know what his problem is,
I like 'em both a lot)

  I explained that I was running a Z80-based general-purpose computer
fifteen years ago (an IMSAI with a CCS Z80 CPU board which I still
have) as my main machine, and that the Z80 processor was a
general-purpose machine that was very popular in the 70s and 80s...and
was definitely nothing "new".

  Know what?  HE DIDN'T BELIEVE ME!!

  So, yes, folks...the Z80 seems to be gearing up for a second
life...this time as an embedded processor.  There are many variations
as Allison stated above, but the standard 40-pin dip that we all
built SBCs out of years ago is at the head of the pack.

  Scary.  But kinda cool in a way.


             -Dave McGuire

From hansp at digiweb.com  Sun Oct 29 14:53:50 2000
From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: ITS perhaps?
References: <NEBBIBDKIMIOHBDBOBCIAEAICCAA.SPEDRAJA@mail.ono.es>
Message-ID: <39FC8E5E.DD5EAB2E@digiweb.com>

Hi Sergio,

I found this on the web today, perhaps you do not know of it, it seems
that the source code for ITS kernel is available under GPL licence.

Find it here : <http://pdp10.nocrew.org/> and look for ITS

Regards,

  -- Hans

From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Sun Oct 29 14:01:32 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: DSQD floppy drives needed for KAYPRO II with Advent Turbo Rom
Message-ID: <007d01c041e3$e90192f0$59779a8d@ajp166>

From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) <cisin@xenosoft.com>


>On Sun, 29 Oct 2000, ajp166 wrote:
>> >Anyone on the list have one or two DSQD (DD,96TPI) they can spare at
a
>> >reasonable cost?
>> the best choice is FD55GFV or the FD55E series.  I happen to use the
GFV.
>
>Do you prefer the Teac 55GFV (1.2M) over the 55F (720K)?


The 55GFV for this use is jumperd so that its running as the 55F and 720k
mode.  They are interchageable in this app with one note: the 55GFV
is far more common.

>Good point!  720K 3.5" tends to be a lot more convenient for media and
>withstanding abuse than 720K 5.25"


I've been running one that way for several years.  The drive I burried
inside
as "A:" is one of those oddball IBM PS/2 no bezel types.   By doing that
the externally accessable drives are uncommitted and makes space
available.

Allison


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Sun Oct 29 14:07:44 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: DSQD floppy drives needed for KAYPRO II with Advent Turbo Rom
Message-ID: <007f01c041e3$ea23f2e0$59779a8d@ajp166>

From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) <cisin@xenosoft.com>


>On Sun, 29 Oct 2000, Bill Dawson wrote:
>> Anyone on the list have one or two DSQD (DD,96TPI) they can spare at a
>> reasonable cost?
>
>For MOST situations, MOST 1.2M drives can be configured as a
>substitute.  You want to keep the rotational speed at 300RPM, but go to
>the 96TPI step, and keep the write current at the "360K" level.
>
>However, using the "right" drive is always a little easier.
>Do you need full height or half height?


The TEAC 55F does that natually and the 55GFV jumpers to that mode
easily.  The latter was used for DEC RX33, PC 1.2mb and a lot of other
uses so it's pretty easy to find.  I have a pot load as it's about the
most versitle drive in the 96tpi class.  The mitsubishis are a good
second
choice and also widely used in PCs.

>For half height, I like the Shugart/Panasonic 465, although not everyone
>is happy with those.


This is slow and not very well known for reliability.  Rather scarce too.

Allison


From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Sun Oct 29 14:27:26 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: Box o Z100 floppies
In-Reply-To: <20001027162846.X18115@mrbill.net>
References: <200010272023.NAA28968@shell1.aracnet.com>; from
 healyzh@aracnet.com on Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 01:23:10PM -0700
 <20001027121641.A1258@loomcom.com>
 <200010272023.NAA28968@shell1.aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <l03102801b62189393198@[192.168.1.4]>

Today was one of those days where I can't really understand why I am not
happier with the overall result. TRW hamfest was this morning (Sat) and
while it rained pretty hard just a couple miles away, TRW stayed
essentially dry. Twenty feet in I bought 3 Apple Profile A9M0005 hard
drives in only mildly yellow state, but nothing else of much consequence
(except this box of floppies). Later I met my wife for a great lunch, and
despite having the needle in the red most of the way did not run out of
gas. After lunch I gave a couple people at GoodWill some excellent expert
mac advice saving them a bundle, followed by a moderate haggle and the
purchase of 10 lbs of mostly 4 MB 72 pin simms and a half dozen 486 DX100
cpus.

Box o floppies is Heath Zenith, with 10 floppies that look to be for a Z100
including boot disc, and DOS 2, maybe even a diagnostic or something. A
couple are hand written, the rest are the original floppies. Is this
something somebody needs?



From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Sun Oct 29 14:37:31 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: Monitor for iSBC 8024
Message-ID: <009201c041e8$1d955d40$59779a8d@ajp166>

>  And as the plain ole Z80 as well.  The embedded systems world is
>crazy about it, using it all over the place.  I know a guy (younger


You ainnt kiddin.

>He just hates the PIC and the 8051. (I don't know what his problem is,
>I like 'em both a lot)


They have their place. ;)  PIC is one I"ve not worked with but back 20
years
I wrote code for the single chip 4bitters and they were the same thing
and not all that bad.

>  I explained that I was running a Z80-based general-purpose computer
>fifteen years ago (an IMSAI with a CCS Z80 CPU board which I still


Late adoptor?  the first Z80 for me was 1977 (january), NS* running
at the astronomical speed of 4mhz.  That makes that board 23.8
years old.

>have) as my main machine, and that the Z80 processor was a
>general-purpose machine that was very popular in the 70s and 80s...and
>was definitely nothing "new".
>
>  Know what?  HE DIDN'T BELIEVE ME!!


Caution clue LART in use.  I'd have smacked him in the snout with a
rolled up Zilog data book, Ca 1976.

>  So, yes, folks...the Z80 seems to be gearing up for a second
>life...this time as an embedded processor.  There are many variations


No, its been there for the last, oh 15 years doing that.

>as Allison stated above, but the standard 40-pin dip that we all
>built SBCs out of years ago is at the head of the pack.
>
>  Scary.  But kinda cool in a way.


Actually the raw Z80 is not seen much in new designs but
it's later fellows are very much there.  It's one of the most
commonly available of the old line CPUs.

If the 6800 were still available from Moto (68705 is) it would be
used still as is the 6502 decendants.

Like PDP-8, PDP11, VAX, Nova, 6502, 6800 and many others
a good design is hard to displace.

Oh and the CMOS 8085 also went to mars to push rocks
around very successfully (mars rover).


Allison


From jim at calico.litterbox.com  Sun Oct 29 14:44:43 2000
From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist layered products
In-Reply-To: <200010291332.e9TDWpM02689@bg-tc-ppp821.monmouth.com> from "Bill Pechter" at Oct 29, 2000 08:32:51 AM
Message-ID: <200010292044.NAA28126@calico.litterbox.com>

> See... that's why AT&T and BSD had to hook students in college.
> If they got VAX/VMS or TOPS10 or TOPS20 in college it was much harder
> for the Unix virus to infect them.  If they started with Unix they got
> the idea every OS had to be Unix-like to be good.

Dec DID have the campuswide Software Licence Grant.  Both my undergrad and 
graduate schools had these and ran Vaxen running VMS.  This is where I learned
to be such a VMS bigot. :)  The problem is in the late 80s and early 90s
they started jerking colleges around with the program - raising the prices,
reducing the layered products - not understanding that at a university it 
really DOES make sense to rip out and throw away years of work and run BSD
on Vaxen instead of paying extra support charges.  And as you say, once you
infect people with unix while they still think its obtuseness and inconsistancy
are fun, you've lost them.

> 
> Unfortunately, OS varieties seem to be dwindling as the Windows or Unix
> varients push the others out of the data centers.  Even IBM seems to be
> aiding this movement.  (They killed OS/2 on PPC and adopted Linux and AIX --
> didn't they).

What kills me is what Compaq has done (or not bothered to do, in this case).
They have the hardware and operating systems to *own* the server market.
Alphas with VMS on them would make infinately better servers than NT for any 
purpose I can think of.  But they seem unwilling to provide much more than 
lukewarm support for the VMS world they now own.  You have to wonder how 
abusive Microsoft's licences are for them.

Some days I really do think most of whats wrong with computing today can be put
at Microsoft's doorstep.  Between their marketing, their (illegal) licensing
schemes, and the reactions of the computing community to these scams - namely
the wholesale embrace of Linux, which brings up all the warts of Unix mentioned
above, but is at least free - it seems like they caused a lot of it, at least
in the US.  Don't even get me started with what they did to BeOS.

Anyway.  Back to the topic...  If there's a good side to corpate computing 
embracing unix and winblows, it's that vaxen and other classic machines 
wind up in our hands while they still have plenty of years of running time
left, and we can personally benefit from what used to be thriving user
communities and software.  (the Decus libraries are what I'm thinking of here,
does this kind of thing exist for other machines and OSs?)  That's got to be
worth something.
-- 
Jim Strickland
jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
                              BeOS Powered!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

From mcguire at neurotica.com  Sun Oct 29 15:54:32 2000
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: Monitor for iSBC 8024
In-Reply-To: Re: Monitor for iSBC 8024 (ajp166)
References: <009201c041e8$1d955d40$59779a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <14844.40088.72034.420835@phaduka.neurotica.com>

On October 29, ajp166 wrote:
> >  I explained that I was running a Z80-based general-purpose computer
> >fifteen years ago (an IMSAI with a CCS Z80 CPU board which I still
> 
> Late adoptor?  the first Z80 for me was 1977 (january), NS* running
> at the astronomical speed of 4mhz.  That makes that board 23.8
> years old.

  Well, I suppose it was more like seventeen years ago...I was
thirteen...

> >have) as my main machine, and that the Z80 processor was a
> >general-purpose machine that was very popular in the 70s and 80s...and
> >was definitely nothing "new".
> >
> >  Know what?  HE DIDN'T BELIEVE ME!!
> 
> Caution clue LART in use.  I'd have smacked him in the snout with a
> rolled up Zilog data book, Ca 1976.

  I'll be showing him mine next week. :)

> >  So, yes, folks...the Z80 seems to be gearing up for a second
> >life...this time as an embedded processor.  There are many variations
> 
> No, its been there for the last, oh 15 years doing that.

  Of course, but now it's *only* doing that, mainstream-wise.  I was
attempting to point out the shift in role from being a mainstream
general-purpose processor to being one used almost entirely for
embedded applications.


            -Dave McGuire

From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Sun Oct 29 17:02:59 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: Monitor for iSBC 8024
Message-ID: <00ea01c041fc$80c063b0$59779a8d@ajp166>

From: Dave McGuire <mcguire@neurotica.com>


>  Of course, but now it's *only* doing that, mainstream-wise.  I was
>attempting to point out the shift in role from being a mainstream
>general-purpose processor to being one used almost entirely for
>embedded applications.


It was the rare and maybe only thing Zilog did right and that was
persuing
the embedded market back around 84-86 timeframe.  That was the
breakpoint for PCs taking over and Z80 based systems and their like
starting to loose influence.  that and the Z8 business kept them going.
The next big break was the Hitachi licensed 64180 (z180) giving the
embedded designer a MMU, sio, DMA on chip and it was a little
faster.

I see things like that as important to the evolution of  the
microprocessor
market and the chips.  The same forces would also keep the 6502 in
the running.

Allison


From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com  Sun Oct 29 17:44:12 2000
From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: Box o Z100 floppies
In-Reply-To: <l03102801b62189393198@[192.168.1.4]>
References: <20001027162846.X18115@mrbill.net>
 <200010272023.NAA28968@shell1.aracnet.com>
 <20001027121641.A1258@loomcom.com>
 <200010272023.NAA28968@shell1.aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001029154240.02ec2010@208.226.86.10>

At 12:27 PM 10/29/00 -0800, Mike Ford wrote:
>followed by a moderate haggle and the
>purchase of 10 lbs of mostly 4 MB 72 pin simms

If they are 1MB x 36 (aka True Parity SIMMS) I'd be happy (and other folks 
here on the list) might be happy to get a few them (like 10 :-). These are 
used in the VAX 4000/VLC and are the only type supported.

--Chuck




From fmc at reanimators.org  Sun Oct 29 17:35:58 2000
From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:17 2005
Subject: Monitor for iSBC 8024
In-Reply-To: Dave McGuire's message of "Sun, 29 Oct 2000 14:52:24 -0500 (EST)"
References: <005d01c041d9$bcee81f0$59779a8d@ajp166> <14844.32760.769710.245238@phaduka.neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <200010292335.e9TNZw307704@daemonweed.reanimators.org>

Dave McGuire <mcguire@neurotica.com> wrote:
>   So, yes, folks...the Z80 seems to be gearing up for a second
> life...this time as an embedded processor.  There are many variations

I'd say that it's been there for a while.  Ever look at an Adaptec
1542CF ISA SCSI card?  A little bit above dead center is a Z80,
clearly marked.

-Frank McConnell

From jhellige at earthlink.net  Sun Oct 29 18:05:44 2000
From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:18 2005
Subject: Reading Xenix backups
Message-ID: <a05001900b62269fd73e0@[168.191.216.247]>

	Seeing the mention of the Shugart QD floppy drive brought to 
mind an Altos 586T that I used to have that used this drive, along 
with a Wangtek 60MB streaming tape drive.  This was an 8086 based 
server released around 1983 that ran XENIX and used a number of Z80's 
to handle the I/O on both the serial ports and disk subsystem.  I no 
longer have the machine itself as it was horribly corroded by the 
time I got it, though I do have a replacement Wangtek tape drive and 
a copy of the XENIX floppy disks for it, as well as two 3M DC300XL/P 
data cartridges that supposedly contain a full system backup.  Short 
of finding another 586T, is there any way of at least checking the 
data integrity of these tapes?

	thanks and take care
	Jeff
-- 
            Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4
        Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems:
                 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757

From forslund at tbaytel3.tbaytel.net  Sun Oct 29 13:16:35 2000
From: forslund at tbaytel3.tbaytel.net (The Forslunds)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:18 2005
Subject: Diskette compatibility question.
Message-ID: <200010300017.TAA88878@tbaytel.net>

Hi,

I have only one diskette that came with a Heathkit H89 computer. It's 
a soft-sectored 5 1/4" Dysan 107/1 flavour. I also have a couple 
boxes of "newer" 5 1/4" diskettes that i used in the IBM pc world, 
which are also soft-sectored, but are double sided, and single or 
double density.  I am wondering if i can reformat these (in CP/M for 
example) and use them in the H89? It makes sense that i should be 
able to do this, since they're obviously better quality (ie. can 
store more info) than  the older SSSD's, but I'm not sure if I can do 
this. I would test it, however, at this time, i don't have format.com 
for the H89.

Thanks  Bob

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Oct 29 18:52:33 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:19 2005
Subject: Diskette compatibility question.
In-Reply-To: <200010300017.TAA88878@tbaytel.net> from "The Forslunds" at Oct 29, 0 07:16:35 pm
Message-ID: <m13q3Bk-000IyHC@p850ug1>

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From geneb at deltasoft.com  Sun Oct 29 19:03:41 2000
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: Anyone Need Some 5.25" DSDD Diskettes?
In-Reply-To: <200010300029.QAA16182@highgate.comm.sfu.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010291702510.12466-100000@war.deltasoft.com>

> I have several boxes of these diskettes, many more than I'll ever need. 
> 
> All are new, in original boxes.
> 
> If you need any then please let me know.
> 
> Thanks,
> Kevin
> 
Kevin, I'd be interested in some of those.  Where about are you located?

g.



From rdd at smart.net  Sun Oct 29 19:15:09 2000
From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: New finds & the Woz!
In-Reply-To: <200010290840.BAA16972@eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010292004370.2854-100000@smarty.smart.net>

On Sun, 29 Oct 2000, Derek Peschel wrote:
> Did he talk about his TV jammer or the first version of Breakout for the

TV jammers were fun toys to build!  I'm rumored to have used mine on a
few paper-route customers who wouldn't pay me, who expected free
newspaper delivery. :-)

> The TV jammer was very small and could easily be concealed.  He used it to
> train his housemates to adopt wierd poses.  He would jam the TV, they would
> attempt to fix it, he would unjam it, then he would jam it again later and
> make them do something more drastic than the last time.  It began with his
> housemates hitting the TV, but eventually he had one person sitting on top
> of the TV blocking the screen with his legs!

Didn't everyone build one of these, as well as AM and FM radio
transmitters for their own radio station, as a kid?  The circuitry for
a TV jammer is very simple; just requires a few easily made inductors,
an RF transistor, antenna, resistors, caps, variable cap and batteries
(I used two 9V batteries in mine).  The whole thing fit on a hand-made
PCB that was about 2" by 2" or less.

--
Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of
All Rights Reserved            Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to
rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd   a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD 





From hansp at digiweb.com  Sun Oct 29 20:45:32 2000
From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: ITS perhaps?
References: <NEBBIBDKIMIOHBDBOBCIAEAICCAA.SPEDRAJA@mail.ono.es> <39FC8E5E.DD5EAB2E@digiweb.com>
Message-ID: <39FCE0CC.79E588F4@digiweb.com>

Sorry folks, this was supposed to be a private email...

  -- Hans

From jim at calico.litterbox.com  Sun Oct 29 20:48:32 2000
From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: vms accounts
Message-ID: <200010300248.TAA29159@calico.litterbox.com>

Could someone give me the quick walk through on what it takes to create an
account in VMS 7.2?  I used to know this, but it's been a long time.

The steps I remember are:

1.  use authorize to add an identifier for the person.
2.  use authorize to add the person.
3.  create their directory.
4.  use authorize to set their password and clear the disuser flag.
5.  log in on squeeky clean new account.

The problem is, I have an account on my vaxstation, but either I never
managed to get it to work or I forgot thet password.  The security
alerts that come up in audit server tell me my password is bad, even
when I'm typing in what I just used authorize mod jim/password=<whatever>
to set.

Thanks.

And I have to say ELM looks somehow more *right* on a vt220 amber monitor than it does in a window. :)

-- 
Jim Strickland
jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
                              BeOS Powered!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

From eric at brouhaha.com  Sun Oct 29 21:06:19 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: SMC 2010, 2009 & 3007 dip chips???
In-Reply-To: <b3.26c6ddf.272dc572@aol.com> (Innfogra@aol.com)
References: <b3.26c6ddf.272dc572@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20001030030619.24287.qmail@brouhaha.com>

> I have a SMC 2010B with a date code of 7736 in Ceramic with gold legs. Is 
> this a second source of the Western Digital or something different? 

Although SMC did second source many Western Digital chips, this one is
about seven years too early to be the 2010 HDC.

From ncherry at home.net  Sun Oct 29 21:21:30 2000
From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: Maxtor P0-12S
Message-ID: <39FCE93A.781E21F@home.net>

Does anyone have a Maxtor P0-12S they would like to part with. I
accidentally set mine on fire and need a new circuit board for it.

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

From jhellige at earthlink.net  Sun Oct 29 21:26:53 2000
From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: CP/M 1.3 memory requirement
Message-ID: <a05001901b6229a8de096@[63.178.211.93]>

	What is the least amount of memory that CP/M 1.3 will run in?
-- 
            Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4
        Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems:
                 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757

From mrbill at mrbill.net  Sun Oct 29 21:47:21 2000
From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: VAX 6000 available in Austin, TX
Message-ID: <20001029214721.K10260@mrbill.net>

I've got a VAX 6000-410 (complete with everything BUT disk controller and
HDs; this has  2 x 32mb RAM cards and CPU, etc, but was used as a 
cluster node) that I picked up a few months ago intending to ressurect
it and play with it occasionally, but a couple of things have stopped me
from doing that:

	1.  Hot as hell in the garage in summer in Texas.
	2.  Cant find the plans to convert from 115V 3phase to 220/240V single
	3.  No available outlet for it when I *do* find the plans to convert
	    it.  (adding another one turned out to be prohibitively expensive).
	4.  No time!!!!

Anyway, if anybody on this list within driving distance of Austin, TX would
like a free (well, something in exchange would be nice, smaller VAXen, ham
radio equipment, etc but if nothing lse, come get it and its yours) VAX 6000 
system, let me know.  You'll need at least a small pickup truck and at least 
two people to load it into said truck; its fairly heavy.  I'd help, but I'm 
still under doctors orders to not lift anything major for another few weeks 
(pulled ligaments in my wrists while rackmounting a Sun E450 @ work a couple 
weeks ago).

Pictures of the VAX (along with serial #s, card inventory, etc) are up at 
http://www.decvax.org/vax6000.

I'm not gonna junk the machine, but someone could be getting more use out
of it right now than I can... so until it finds a better home, its in
the garage.

Bill

-- 
Bill Bradford
mrbill@mrbill.net
Austin, TX

From blstuart at bellsouth.net  Sun Oct 29 22:47:49 2000
From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: AT&T 7300 
In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 28 Oct 2000 22:40:18 -0400 (EDT) .
	<Pine.LNX.4.10.10010282233320.29172-100000@smarty.smart.net> 
Message-ID: <m13q6rO-0003fdC@nomad>

In message <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010282233320.29172-100000@smarty.smart.net>, "R. D.
 Davis" writes:
>On 28 Oct 2000, Eric Smith wrote:
>> The C compiler is K&R (non-ANSI), but there is a port of GCC.
>
>Note that to use the port of GCC, one still needs to have the
>development set.

Yes and no.  The gcc port that was packaged up in a nice
distribution did require some parts of the development
set IIRC.  However, before I had access to such archives,
I ended up doing a port of gcc the hard way.  To give you
an idea what I mean by the hard way, I started the process
by writing a 68000 disassembler in awk since that was the
only language (other than the shell) that comes with the
foundation set.  In the process I was able to deduce how
the shared library worked and made reasonable guesses for
the header files.  Later I found in the archives of
comp.sources.3b1 a set of header files that fixed some
of the weakness in mine.  (Of course, if you want to
be technical, those header files are modified versions of
the ones in the development set.)  Unfortunately, I don't think
I ever put it in the index of the archive that I sent Peter
for unixpc.taronga.com.  (It's probably burried on the CD
somewhere though.)

It's great seeing semi-active discussion of the 7300/3b1.
It's still one of my favorite machines.

Brian L. Stuart

From wmsmith at earthlink.net  Sun Oct 29 23:10:27 2000
From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: Diskette compatibility question.
References: <m13q3Bk-000IyHC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <008f01c0422f$bb278780$8314f4d8@Smith.earthlink.net>

> Did anybody stick that FAQ I wrote on what disks work
where up anywhere?
> Should I post it again?

Yes, you should.  Thanks.


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Sun Oct 29 22:58:00 2000
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: Maxtor P0-12S
In-Reply-To: <39FCE93A.781E21F@home.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010292057420.12534-100000@war.deltasoft.com>

> Does anyone have a Maxtor P0-12S they would like to part with. I
> accidentally set mine on fire and need a new circuit board for it.

Ok Neil, I've _got_ to hear the story behind this. :)

g.



From donm at cts.com  Sun Oct 29 23:13:05 2000
From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: CP/M 1.3 memory requirement
In-Reply-To: <a05001901b6229a8de096@[63.178.211.93]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SCO.4.20.0010292111460.5208-100000@crash.cts.com>



On Sun, 29 Oct 2000, Jeff Hellige wrote:

> 	What is the least amount of memory that CP/M 1.3 will run in?

Well, I am not at all certain about 1.3, but I have a DRI distribution
disk for 2.2 that is set up for 20k.  
						 - don
 
>             Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4
>         Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems:
>                  http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757
> 


From kbd at ndx.net  Mon Oct 30 00:19:36 2000
From: kbd at ndx.net (kbd)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: ITS perhaps?
In-Reply-To: <39FCE0CC.79E588F4@digiweb.com>
Message-ID: <HFEPIJEEKKDEGOFFHBLECEBBCCAA.kbd@ndx.net>


No problem - It was a great link!


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org
[mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Hans B Pufal
Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2000 6:46 PM
To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: ITS perhaps?


Sorry folks, this was supposed to be a private email...

  -- Hans


From ncherry at home.net  Mon Oct 30 00:29:19 2000
From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: Maxtor P0-12S
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010292057420.12534-100000@war.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <39FD153F.6F0D896A@home.net>

Gene Buckle wrote:
> 
> > Does anyone have a Maxtor P0-12S they would like to part with. I
> > accidentally set mine on fire and need a new circuit board for it.
> 
> Ok Neil, I've _got_ to hear the story behind this. :)
> 
> g.

I had the full height drive belly up and exposed (it didn't fit inside
my Server). One day my foot hooked a cable and through a Rube Goldberg
series of events down came the LAN hub right on the IO chip of the drive.
Before I knew what had happened the drive caught fire. The computer
kept running until I pulled the power out of the drive. At that point the
SCSI bus hung.

The room stank for a week, the drive has a chip with 2 eruption craters
(Cirrus Logic CL-SH350-230C-C). The drive worked really well up to that
point. :-0

Needless to say I no longer have servers components exposed in such a
manor. (DOH!)

-- 
Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)

From jate at uwasa.fi  Mon Oct 30 00:34:07 2000
From: jate at uwasa.fi (Jarkko Hermanni Teppo)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: Old HP Stuff Available
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001026174743.1e9739e0@mailhost.intellistar.net>; from rigdonj@intellistar.net on Thu, Oct 26, 2000 at 05:47:43PM -0500
References: <3m4hvs8lmcftd42hejfrb5nm1l8fi2m3ar@4ax.com> <3.0.1.16.20001026174743.1e9739e0@mailhost.intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <20001030083407.A12437@loisto.uwasa.fi>

On Thu, Oct 26, 2000 at 05:47:43PM -0500, Joe wrote:
> At 03:32 PM 10/26/00 -0500, Bill wrote:
> >HP SRM
> 
>    SRM = Shared Resource Manager. SRMs are basicly file servers altough I
> suspect what he has may actually be computers with the SRM interface card
> in them. I've never even seen a SRM but I've seen lots of HP computers with
> the interface cards. FWIW the computers will still run any of the standard
> HP OSs; HP-UX (Unix), BASIC, Pascal and HPL.
> 

[I'm a bit late for this...]
I have one SRM server box and here are some details:
Model 50960A with 98204A composite video card (took me a while to 
find a monitor.. settled on an on Philips mono), a pretty
normal Human Interface card, 50926A SRM interface card, Moto 68000
with 512 KB memory and a 7946 for mass storage (50 MB hd + 9144 cartridge
tape). Everything in normal DIO-I bus, SRM version 2.2. I also have two
SRM cards that I intend to hook up to some HP-UX boxen but I have to
look up some documentation first (like uh, network topology, termination (?),
cable impedance etc.. in short, I know nothing).

-- 
Jarkko Teppo
jate@uwasa.fi








From jate at uwasa.fi  Mon Oct 30 01:20:44 2000
From: jate at uwasa.fi (Jarkko Hermanni Teppo)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: DEBNT installation
Message-ID: <20001030092044.B12437@loisto.uwasa.fi>

Here's the DEBNT installation from VAX 8200/8300 Installation
Guide. I really remembered that I had the real docs for DEBNT but
I can't find them at the moment, anyway here goes:

4.8 DEBNT INSTALLATION

1. Remove processor cabinet front and rear doors
2. From the rear of the processor cabinet, release the BA32 box
   track lock (Figure 2.14).
3. Slide the BA32 box out of the cabinet.
4. Remove the BA32 box top cover.
5. Insert the T1034 module in the VAXBI cardcage.
6. Rotate the BA32 box up and remove the bottom cover.
7. Install the transition header on the backplane if the slot
   holding the T1034 module.
8. From the rear of the BA32 box, open the appropriate cable restraint
   and feed the transition end of the DEBNT cable into the box. Pull
   enough of the cable into the box to feed the cable under and through
   the rear brace and up to the backplane of the slot that holds the
   T1034 module.
9. Connect the DEBNT cable to zone E (left) of the transition header on
   the backplane of the slot that holds the T1034 module.
10. Connect the 12V power cable from the power supply distribution board
    to the pigtail connector on the DEBNT cable.
11. Close the cable restraint at the rear of the BA32 box.

    NOTE
    Route the DEBNT cables separately from the power cables insider the
    processor cabinet.

12. Replace the BA32 box bottom cover.
13. Rotate the BA32 box down.
14. Connect the DEBNT cables to the distribution panel.
15. Replace the BA32 box top cover.
16. Power up the system. The DEBNT self-test runs upon power up.
    Check that the yellow LED on the T1034 module lights.
    
    If the yellow LED does not light, refer to the DEBNT Ethernet
    Tape Controller Technical Manual.

17. Refer to the DEBNT Ethernet Tape Controller Technical Manual for
    the complete acceptance procedure.
18. Slide the BA32 box into the processor cabinet.
19. Replace the processor cabinet front and rear doors.

-- 
Jarkko Teppo
jate@uwasa.fi



From flo at rdel.co.uk  Mon Oct 30 01:28:57 2000
From: flo at rdel.co.uk (Paul Williams)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: Diskette compatibility question.
References: <m13q3Bk-000IyHC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <39FD2339.9145AC13@rdel.co.uk>

Tony Duell wrote:
> 
> Did anybody stick that FAQ I wrote on what disks work where up
> anywhere?
> Should I post it again?

If you don't have your own Web site, remember that Jay has offered[1] to
host any Web site to do with classic computing. Perhaps a little FAQ
section could be started at http://www.classiccmp.org.

[1] http://www.classiccmp.org/mail-archives/classiccmp/2000-08/0043.html

From hansp at digiweb.com  Mon Oct 30 03:05:05 2000
From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: ITS perhaps?
References: <HFEPIJEEKKDEGOFFHBLECEBBCCAA.kbd@ndx.net>
Message-ID: <39FD39C1.62091D8E@digiweb.com>

kbd wrote:
 
> No problem - It was a great link!

Serendipity rules!

  -- Hans

From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Mon Oct 30 03:16:13 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: Storage idea!!!
Message-ID: <l03102808b622eb8b4702@[192.168.1.4]>

My latest bright idea, an 8x10 net (maybe 10x12) to hang from the garage
ceiling to hold all my big empty boxes, bags of filler, etc. (a good
portion of my garage has a 14' ceiling, so I have a lot of "room" even
above head height. I'm am not entirely sure what one end will be anchored
to, but I am so jazzed at the thought, that most likely I will run out
first thing in the morning and buy and put up the net (anything netlike
should be fine). Lets just say that right now my empty box and foam
collection takes up about one 8x10 rooms worth of my garage and house.



From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Mon Oct 30 03:17:43 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: Fixing machines (was Re: H-89....)
In-Reply-To: <m13puah-000IyHC@p850ug1>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001028175726.02a9b0a0@208.226.86.10> from "Chuck
 McManis" at Oct 28, 0 05:59:33 pm
Message-ID: <l03102807b622e9dae116@[192.168.1.4]>

>enjoy programming it for a bit. I can generally get one of those machines
>going in a couple of days (and certainly less than a week)

You are on such an elevated plane from me it isn't funny. I have "two"
electric razors in three piles of parts waiting for me to; A) glue a
repaired switch back together, and B) solder in a new set of NiCads. I
think the first one has been apart since January (of this year at least).
Of course I do finish many things in a timely manner, but I must have a
dozen or so projects that aren't moving along.



From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Mon Oct 30 06:52:37 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: Old HP Stuff Available
In-Reply-To: <20001030083407.A12437@loisto.uwasa.fi>
References: <3.0.1.16.20001026174743.1e9739e0@mailhost.intellistar.net>
 <3m4hvs8lmcftd42hejfrb5nm1l8fi2m3ar@4ax.com>
 <3.0.1.16.20001026174743.1e9739e0@mailhost.intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001030075237.3b7febf8@mailhost.intellistar.net>

At 08:34 AM 10/30/00 +0200, Jarrko wrote:
>> >HP SRM
>> 
>>    SRM = Shared Resource Manager. SRMs are basicly file servers altough I
>> suspect what he has may actually be computers with the SRM interface card
>> in them. I've never even seen a SRM but I've seen lots of HP computers with
>> the interface cards. FWIW the computers will still run any of the standard
>> HP OSs; HP-UX (Unix), BASIC, Pascal and HPL.
>> 
>
>[I'm a bit late for this...]
>I have one SRM server box and here are some details:
>Model 50960A with 98204A composite video card (took me a while to 
>find a monitor.. settled on an on Philips mono), a pretty
>normal Human Interface card, 50926A SRM interface card, Moto 68000
>with 512 KB memory and a 7946 for mass storage (50 MB hd + 9144 cartridge
>tape). Everything in normal DIO-I bus, SRM version 2.2. I also have two
>SRM cards that I intend to hook up to some HP-UX boxen but I have to
>look up some documentation first (like uh, network topology, termination (?),
>cable impedance etc.. in short, I know nothing).


    This is the "server" portion of the system?  I've been wondering what
kind of computer system it required and weather or not it used the same SRM
interface card.  I haven't been able to find any details about the server
end of the system. What is the SRM software like?

    Joe


From LFessen106 at aol.com  Mon Oct 30 06:26:53 2000
From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: Wierd Stuff note
Message-ID: <4e.cd8b433.272ec30d@aol.com>

In a message dated 10/28/00 8:23:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, leec@slip.net 
writes:

> I'm also looking for a keyboard and mouse for a SUN Sparcstation I recently
>  acquired (thanks Kirk!). I also need a cable to connect a Sony monitor with
>  a 5 coax connectors on the back (R-G-B and a Sync for VD and HD). Any hints
>  where I should look (other than wierd stuff and $UN). Mouse Systems which
>  produced optical mice for SUN workstations seems to no longer be in
>  business. THanks for any pointers.
>  
>  Lee Courtney
>  

A business close by sells these..  According to their web site, a type 4 unix 
kb, mouse and pad will go for $20 plus shipping (from NJ).  I called and 
asked if they have any left for that price and the guy said "As many as you 
want".

Their web site is http://www.compsyscon.com
Phone - 908 689-5500 

Have fun, and if anyone ever wsould be interested in slipping a Sparc my way, 
just let me know!

-Linc Fessenden

From jate at uwasa.fi  Mon Oct 30 06:31:01 2000
From: jate at uwasa.fi (Jarkko Hermanni Teppo)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: Old HP Stuff Available
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001030075237.3b7febf8@mailhost.intellistar.net>; from rigdonj@intellistar.net on Mon, Oct 30, 2000 at 07:52:37AM -0500
References: <3.0.1.16.20001026174743.1e9739e0@mailhost.intellistar.net> <3m4hvs8lmcftd42hejfrb5nm1l8fi2m3ar@4ax.com> <3.0.1.16.20001026174743.1e9739e0@mailhost.intellistar.net> <20001030083407.A12437@loisto.uwasa.fi> <3.0.1.16.20001030075237.3b7febf8@mailhost.intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <20001030143101.A26969@loisto.uwasa.fi>

On Mon, Oct 30, 2000 at 07:52:37AM -0500, Joe wrote:
> 
>     This is the "server" portion of the system?  I've been wondering what
> kind of computer system it required and weather or not it used the same SRM
> interface card.  I haven't been able to find any details about the server
> end of the system. What is the SRM software like?
> 

The card does seem to be the same, the machine is unlike anything I've seen
so far. The box looks like the normal HP mini-rack stuff though. I was
surprised at the video interface, since I was expecting a normal HP
1280x1024 or similar at 60Hz. Well, it *did* say "composite video" on the
card. One of the HP-IB connectors is connected directly to the back ie. not
via a DIO-I card and there's no processor card as such.

The boot looks like a 9000/300 series boot, first it identifies the processor,
then peripherals (or the cards), then the memory and then it searches for
a bootable system.

It starts up booting SRM and it comes up very quickly. On the top row(s) it
shows some load values, requests and other status-related stuff and the
rest of the screen estate is for issuing commands. Help is available via
HElp (it's possible to do (not so)VMS-like command abbreviations) and the
commands I remember are:
SYstem UP/DOWN
VAlidate arguments
TIme arguments (by default it suggests a date from 1983)
some USer related stuff and other commands.

I don't remember any more details (oh yes, there was backup too) since
I just powered it up for the first time during the weekend and I have no
docs and zero experience with SRM.

So if someone has a "SRM explained for Zen-searching dummies" I'd like
a copy. Or a clue-by-four.
-- 
Jarkko Teppo
jate@uwasa.fi


From THETechnoid at home.com  Mon Oct 30 07:07:56 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: Maxtor P0-12S
In-Reply-To: <39FCE93A.781E21F@home.net>
Message-ID: <20001030125855.VKTJ26793.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

Did pin 20 on the scsi connector fry when you plugged it in inverted?  I'm
curious how you set it on fire.

Regards,

Jeff


In <39FCE93A.781E21F@home.net>, on 10/30/00 
   at 08:07 AM, Neil Cherry <ncherry@home.net> said:

>Does anyone have a Maxtor P0-12S they would like to part with. I
>accidentally set mine on fire and need a new circuit board for it.



-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Mon Oct 30 09:03:21 2000
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: Maxtor P0-12S
In-Reply-To: <39FD153F.6F0D896A@home.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010300701100.12761-100000@war.deltasoft.com>


> The room stank for a week, the drive has a chip with 2 eruption craters
> (Cirrus Logic CL-SH350-230C-C). The drive worked really well up to that
> point. :-0
> 
Hmmm.  Ever have to spin up a drive by shoving the spindle with a
jeweler's screwdriver?  It *IS* possible, but not recommended.  You tend
to let the smoke out of things when the scredriver bumps the board and the
drive case at the same time. :)

g.



From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com  Mon Oct 30 09:36:46 2000
From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: ITS perhaps?
In-Reply-To: <39FC8E5E.DD5EAB2E@digiweb.com>
Message-ID: <13591550500.19.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com>

[ITS kernel is GPL'd]

Monitor.  Not kernel, monitor.

What it is, is that certain stuff from AI:SYSTEM; got GPLd.
I'm not sure what's there and what's not - I have the whole thing anyway.
This happened a few months ago.  More stuff will be GPL'd later, when they
get the OK from MIT's legal eagles.

-------

From THETechnoid at home.com  Mon Oct 30 10:19:48 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: Vaxstation Sucess!
In-Reply-To: <20001030143101.A26969@loisto.uwasa.fi>
Message-ID: <20001030161237.XXBR2380.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

Just wanted to HOOT a bit.

This morning I got TCPIP installed and configured on my Vaxstation
4000/60.  I then got in on my lan and installed Netscape for OpenVMS.  I
am now surfing on my VAX!

Hurray!

The package name was TCPIP instead of what should have been something like
TCPIP_vax050 which was the name if the PCSI kit.  Whatever, I beat the
machine again!

Regards and thanks all,

Jeff

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From b.layer at vikingelectronics.com  Mon Oct 30 10:35:59 2000
From: b.layer at vikingelectronics.com (Bill Layer)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: TCP/IP for AT&T SysV R4 V2.1
In-Reply-To: <20001030161237.XXBR2380.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci22322
 9-a>
References: <20001030143101.A26969@loisto.uwasa.fi>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001030103302.00ca38a0@192.168.210.18>

This is a semi-repeat request. Please excuse the bandwidth.

I'm playing with an old machine that has AT&T SysV UNIX Release 4, Ver 2.1. 
There is no TCP/IP networking package that I can find. Can someone tell me 
if TCP/IP is available, and from where it may be gotten? The post about the 
VAX got me interested again...



Bill Layer
Sales Technician
<b.layer@vikingelectronics.com>

+----------------------------------+
      Viking Electronics, Inc.
        1531 Industrial St.
     Hudson, WI. 54016 - U.S.A
       715.386.8861 ext. 210
  <http://www.vikingelectronics.com>
+----------------------------------+

"Telecom Solutions for the 21st Century"

  


From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Mon Oct 30 12:30:47 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: TCP/IP for AT&T SysV R4 V2.1
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001030103302.00ca38a0@192.168.210.18>
References: <20001030161237.XXBR2380.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci22322 9-a>
 <20001030143101.A26969@loisto.uwasa.fi>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001030133047.09e731e6@mailhost.intellistar.net>

Bill,

   I'm sorry but I can't help you. But I was wondering what machine you're
playing with?

    Joe


At 10:35 AM 10/30/00 -0600, you wrote:
>This is a semi-repeat request. Please excuse the bandwidth.
>
>I'm playing with an old machine that has AT&T SysV UNIX Release 4, Ver 2.1. 
>There is no TCP/IP networking package that I can find. Can someone tell me 
>if TCP/IP is available, and from where it may be gotten? The post about the 
>VAX got me interested again...
>
>
>
>Bill Layer
>Sales Technician
><b.layer@vikingelectronics.com>
>
>+----------------------------------+
>      Viking Electronics, Inc.
>        1531 Industrial St.
>     Hudson, WI. 54016 - U.S.A
>       715.386.8861 ext. 210
>  <http://www.vikingelectronics.com>
>+----------------------------------+
>
>"Telecom Solutions for the 21st Century"
>
>  
>
>


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Oct 30 11:40:02 2000
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: Storage idea!!!
In-Reply-To: <l03102808b622eb8b4702@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010300935200.25333-100000@lanshark.lanminds.com>

Congratulations
You have just re-invented the "cargo hammock" or "storage hammock"
If you have a good Navy surplus store nearby, you can get commercially
made ones.  If not, you can get cheap "pickup truck cargo nets" in the 6 x
8 foot range.

Screw-eyes will work OK for hanging them, IFF the load isn't too heavy and
the overhedad supports are sturdy.

You could also consider putting in hooks, and hanging a piece of plywood
as an overhead hanging shelf.

Or extend the existing shelving higher and get a ladder.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred        cisin@xenosoft.com

> My latest bright idea, an 8x10 net (maybe 10x12) to hang from the garage
> ceiling to hold all my big empty boxes, bags of filler, etc. (a good
> portion of my garage has a 14' ceiling, so I have a lot of "room" even
> above head height. I'm am not entirely sure what one end will be anchored
> to, but I am so jazzed at the thought, that most likely I will run out
> first thing in the morning and buy and put up the net (anything netlike
> should be fine). Lets just say that right now my empty box and foam
> collection takes up about one 8x10 rooms worth of my garage and house.


From foo at siconic.com  Mon Oct 30 10:36:56 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: Storage idea!!!
In-Reply-To: <l03102808b622eb8b4702@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010300834100.1466-100000@siconic.com>

On Mon, 30 Oct 2000, Mike Ford wrote:

> My latest bright idea, an 8x10 net (maybe 10x12) to hang from the garage
> ceiling to hold all my big empty boxes, bags of filler, etc. (a good
> portion of my garage has a 14' ceiling, so I have a lot of "room" even
> above head height. I'm am not entirely sure what one end will be anchored
> to, but I am so jazzed at the thought, that most likely I will run out
> first thing in the morning and buy and put up the net (anything netlike
> should be fine). Lets just say that right now my empty box and foam
> collection takes up about one 8x10 rooms worth of my garage and house.

Oh no, here comes another discussion on space and storage, except now
we're talking about where we put our extra foam and boxes :)

I have the same damn problem but the other day I realized I rarely ever
use the crap anymore (I used to save it for an impending major culling of
my collection which has never materialized for lack of time and
organization).  So I've decided I'm just going to break down the boxes and
recycle everything, and throw out the non-usable foam and give the peanuts
to the mail lady at my mailbox place.  It should free up about 200 cubic
feet.

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From mmcfadden at cmh.edu  Mon Oct 30 11:48:15 2000
From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: IBM P70 PS/2 machine
Message-ID: <E7AC96207335D411B1E7009027FC284906BD34@EXCHANGE2>

Jeff Hellige <jhellige@earthlink.net> asked about the IBM P70

Two links all about the IBM PS/2 P70 red plasma display machine
http://incolor.inetnebr.com/jshorney/p70.htm

http://www.tavi.co.uk/ps2pages/p70.html

I happen to have a P75 but I'm also missing the keyboard.

Mike
mmcfadden@cmh.edu



From dankolb at ox.compsoc.net  Mon Oct 30 11:48:37 2000
From: dankolb at ox.compsoc.net (Dan Kolb)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: vms accounts
In-Reply-To: <200010300248.TAA29159@calico.litterbox.com>
References: <200010300248.TAA29159@calico.litterbox.com>
Message-ID: <00103017483702.08397@kronos>

On Mon, 30 Oct 2000, Jim Strickland wrote:
> Could someone give me the quick walk through on what it takes to create an
> account in VMS 7.2?  I used to know this, but it's been a long time.

>From what I remember on the OpenVMS pages, there was a script available to 
add a user. IIRC, something like, run sys$examples:adduser.com
This automatically adds identifier, username, creates their directory and 
prompts for a password. But, of course, standard disclaimer applies :-)

Dan
-- 
dankolb@ox.compsoc.net  Oxford University Computer Society Secretary
 
--I reserve the right to be completely wrong about any comments or
  opinions expressed; don't trust everything you read above--  

From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Mon Oct 30 12:10:46 2000
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: I'm back! (and other things)
In-Reply-To: <F184ccYTjr8cU6xfPTe000035f7@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <39FDC7B6.41.34BD9891@localhost>

> First of all I'd just like to say a big hello to all the group members. Yes, 
> I did make it through boot camp, & now I'm up in Groton for sub school.

Grats.

> Anyway, I was wondering if anybody had a working Apple Newton 2100 (or 
> upgraded 2000) with all of the stuff it came with (dock station, CD, stylus, 
> manuals, etc.) that they would be willing to let go for cheap. Can you help 
> me?

Well, if you happen to find a second for low, just tell me.
I just made the experiance that virtualy no 2000 owner is
willing to give this little big brat away - inclusive meone :)

Gruss
H.

--
VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen
http://www.vintage.org/vcfe
http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

From b.layer at vikingelectronics.com  Mon Oct 30 12:08:09 2000
From: b.layer at vikingelectronics.com (Bill Layer)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: TCP/IP for AT&T SysV R4 V2.1
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001030133047.09e731e6@mailhost.intellistar.net>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001030103302.00ca38a0@192.168.210.18>
 <20001030161237.XXBR2380.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci22322 9-a>
 <20001030143101.A26969@loisto.uwasa.fi>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001030120402.00d085a0@192.168.210.18>

Hi Joe,

>    I'm sorry but I can't help you. But I was wondering what machine you're
>playing with?

I guess that would have been potentially useful information... This is a 
Compaq Prolinea MT 4/33, upgraded to 32MB RAM and an Intel OverDrive 83MHz 
CPU. HD is 400 or 500MB.

System boots and runs fine, and the package installation tools are in 
place. I'm really hoping that TCP/IP is out there somewhere.

Bill


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Oct 30 12:20:47 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: Maxtor P0-12S
In-Reply-To: <39FCE93A.781E21F@home.net> from "Neil Cherry" at Oct 29, 0 10:21:30 pm
Message-ID: <m13qJYF-000IyHC@p850ug1>

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Oct 30 12:28:19 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: Diskette compatibility question.
In-Reply-To: <008f01c0422f$bb278780$8314f4d8@Smith.earthlink.net> from "Wayne M. Smith" at Oct 29, 0 09:10:27 pm
Message-ID: <m13qJfU-000IyHC@p850ug1>

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Oct 30 12:32:33 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: Fixing machines (was Re: H-89....)
In-Reply-To: <l03102807b622e9dae116@[192.168.1.4]> from "Mike Ford" at Oct 30, 0 01:17:43 am
Message-ID: <m13qJjY-000IyHC@p850ug1>

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From sethm at loomcom.com  Mon Oct 30 12:42:55 2000
From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: vms accounts
In-Reply-To: <200010300248.TAA29159@calico.litterbox.com>; from jim@calico.litterbox.com on Sun, Oct 29, 2000 at 07:48:32PM -0700
References: <200010300248.TAA29159@calico.litterbox.com>
Message-ID: <20001030104255.A1162@loomcom.com>

On Sun, Oct 29, 2000 at 07:48:32PM -0700, Jim Strickland wrote:
> Could someone give me the quick walk through on what it takes to create an
> account in VMS 7.2?  I used to know this, but it's been a long time.
> 
> The steps I remember are:
> 
> 1.  use authorize to add an identifier for the person.
> 2.  use authorize to add the person.
> 3.  create their directory.
> 4.  use authorize to set their password and clear the disuser flag.
> 5.  log in on squeeky clean new account.
> 
> The problem is, I have an account on my vaxstation, but either I never
> managed to get it to work or I forgot thet password.  The security
> alerts that come up in audit server tell me my password is bad, even
> when I'm typing in what I just used authorize mod jim/password=<whatever>
> to set.

Ask, and ye shall receive:

http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/72final/6017/6017pro_019.html#6017accounts

Thank God Compaq left the OpenVMS documentation website up.

The quick summary is (example user is named "JONES" and lives in
UIC 100,1 [an arbitrary number, I don't know good VMS group number
conventions]):

 $ SET DEFAULT SYS$SYSTEM
 $ RUN AUTHORIZE
 UAF> ADD JONES/PASSWORD=PA55WORD/UIC=[100,1] -
 _UAF> /DEVICE=DISK$USER/DIRECTORY=[JONES] -
 _UAF> /OWNER="Bob Jones"/ACCOUNT=USERS -
 _UAF> /FLAGS=NODISUSER

(the NODISUSER flag prevents the account from being disabled
by default)

-Seth

From donm at cts.com  Mon Oct 30 12:47:04 2000
From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: Storage idea!!!
In-Reply-To: <l03102808b622eb8b4702@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SCO.4.20.0010301045510.20049-100000@crash.cts.com>



On Mon, 30 Oct 2000, Mike Ford wrote:

> My latest bright idea, an 8x10 net (maybe 10x12) to hang from the garage
> ceiling to hold all my big empty boxes, bags of filler, etc. (a good
> portion of my garage has a 14' ceiling, so I have a lot of "room" even
> above head height. I'm am not entirely sure what one end will be anchored
> to, but I am so jazzed at the thought, that most likely I will run out
> first thing in the morning and buy and put up the net (anything netlike
> should be fine). Lets just say that right now my empty box and foam
> collection takes up about one 8x10 rooms worth of my garage and house.
 
You realize, of course, that by the law of unintended consequences the
item that you want will ALWAYS be smack in the middle of the net!

						 - don
 


From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Mon Oct 30 13:11:48 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: Emergency Multics Rescue Needed!!!
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB29B@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>

Ok, 

I'm forwarding this as-is. Hopefully someone has the $$$ and 
the will to do something about it.

-dq

-------------------------------------------------------------
Hello Douglas,

The Multics system that was shut down today at Halifax will likely
be available for purchase from Gov't of Canada "Crown Assets" soon.
I should mention that the configuration is, roughly speaking, 
3 x Multics CPU.  Also, modifications (by Alan Haggett) had it
running as Y2K compatible.  ***SYSTEM WILL BE SOLD WITHOUT DISKS***
(due to security considerations).  Disks are supposed to be available
through third party suppliers.

Serious inquiries to purchase this system as a workable system
(capable of booting from tape, etc.) will only be useful for
the next few days, as the current plan is to break up the unit
in about 2 weeks, i.e. about 13Nov2000.

The disposal of the system is being coordinated by Mr. Dave Renshaw.
Please contact him for further information as per:

Dave Renshaw, DND Marlant N6353
HQ Bldg D201, 3rd Floor
P.O. Box 99000 Stn Forces
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
B3K 5X5
Tel: 902-427-0550 ext. 2554
Fax: 902-427-6626
Email: d.renshaw@dnd.ca

Thanks,
-- 
John McLeod, Senior Scientific Programmer, SIM Group
-------------------------------------------------------------
	Defence Research Establishment Atlantic (DREA)
Mail Address...			Courier Delivery Address...
P.O. Box 1012			9 Grove Street
Dartmouth, NS			Dartmouth, NS
CANADA  B2Y 3Z7			CANADA  B3A 3C5
	E-mail: john.mcleod@drea.dnd.ca
	Phone : 902-426-3100 ext. 151
	Fax   : 902-426-9654
	Web   : www.drea.dnd.ca
-------------------------------------------------------------

John McLeod wrote:
> 
<----cut----->
> 
> Douglas Quebbeman wrote:
> >
> > ISTR a discussion about the Canadian DND systems,
> > where someone said one of the two had already been
> > shut down some time back, making only one left.
> >
> > John, would they (the powers that be) be willing
> > to consider offers from a bona fide institution
> > intrested in preserving the system? The museum
> > in California has the Dockmaster system, but when
> > I mentioned the passing of this system on the
> > classic computer mailing list, it generated some
> > heat, and we have some curators on that list.
> >
> > If there's simply no chance, let me know...
> >
> > -dq
> >
<----cut----->
> > > > -dq
> > >

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Oct 30 12:53:06 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: Old HP Stuff Available
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001030075237.3b7febf8@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Oct 30, 0 07:52:37 am
Message-ID: <m13qK3R-000IyHC@p850ug1>

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From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Mon Oct 30 13:10:39 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: Wierd Stuff note
In-Reply-To: <4e.cd8b433.272ec30d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <l03102802b6237651b5ca@[192.168.1.4]>

>> I'm also looking for a keyboard and mouse for a SUN Sparcstation I recently
>>  acquired (thanks Kirk!). I also need a cable to connect a Sony monitor with
>>  a 5 coax connectors on the back (R-G-B and a Sync for VD and HD). Any hints
>>  where I should look (other than wierd stuff and $UN). Mouse Systems which
>>  produced optical mice for SUN workstations seems to no longer be in
>>  business. THanks for any pointers.
>>
>>  Lee Courtney
>>
>
>A business close by sells these..  According to their web site, a type 4 unix
>kb, mouse and pad will go for $20 plus shipping (from NJ).  I called and
>asked if they have any left for that price and the guy said "As many as you
>want".
>
>Their web site is http://www.compsyscon.com
>Phone - 908 689-5500

Those are good prices as long as shipping doesn't have too much handling
added to it. I get $10 each just for the mouse pads from a friend that
sells workstations, so I tend to hoard them for him.

I think I also have a couple 13w3F to BNC adapters (goes on the end of a
normal sun video cable).



From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Mon Oct 30 13:26:07 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: Storage idea!!!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010300834100.1466-100000@siconic.com>
References: <l03102808b622eb8b4702@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <l03102803b6237a51a6ce@[192.168.1.4]>

>> My latest bright idea, an 8x10 net (maybe 10x12) to hang from the garage
>> ceiling to hold all my big empty boxes, bags of filler, etc. (a good

>I have the same damn problem but the other day I realized I rarely ever
>use the crap anymore (I used to save it for an impending major culling of
>my collection which has never materialized for lack of time and
>organization).  So I've decided I'm just going to break down the boxes and
>recycle everything, and throw out the non-usable foam and give the peanuts
>to the mail lady at my mailbox place.  It should free up about 200 cubic
>feet.

HERESY

Actually I have been doing major tossing of CERTAIN sizes of boxes, worn
boxes, but the company my wife works for just got in a half dozen large
monitors and I grabbed the boxes blindly since big ones like that I have
had to BUY (shaking from the B word, trying not to think about the full
retail part). Foam, bubble wrap, especially the heavy sealed cell shock
foam I hoard.

Curiously when I told my wife about this great idea she just said she was
thinking of getting a net for me for some time. I wonder what she meant?



From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Mon Oct 30 13:38:55 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:26 2005
Subject: Fixing machines (was Re: H-89....)
In-Reply-To: <m13qJjY-000IyHC@p850ug1>
References: <l03102807b622e9dae116@[192.168.1.4]> from "Mike Ford" at Oct
 30, 0 01:17:43 am
Message-ID: <l03102804b6237d986c50@[192.168.1.4]>

>And I'll even admit to having some simple projects (like battery pack
>rebuilds) that I can't be bothered to do at the moment. One day they'll
>get to the top of the queue...

When my more than 10 year old only for "travel" (packed in my trip bag)
razor, a free demo SensorTrak blade gets just a bit duller fixing my
Norelcos will jump to the fast track. BTW comparing the two Norelcos, a
1601 and a much newer 840 the change in technology is fascinating.



From vaxman at uswest.net  Mon Oct 30 13:44:21 2000
From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: Maxtor P0-12S
In-Reply-To: <39FD153F.6F0D896A@home.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1001030124258.12944A-100000@oldy.crwolff.com>


Hi Neil,

Let me look around work (Cirrus Logic), and see if I can find 
you a new chip.

Clint



On Mon, 30 Oct 2000, Neil Cherry wrote:

> Gene Buckle wrote:
> > 
> > > Does anyone have a Maxtor P0-12S they would like to part with. I
> > > accidentally set mine on fire and need a new circuit board for it.
> > 
> > Ok Neil, I've _got_ to hear the story behind this. :)
> > 
> > g.
> 
> I had the full height drive belly up and exposed (it didn't fit inside
> my Server). One day my foot hooked a cable and through a Rube Goldberg
> series of events down came the LAN hub right on the IO chip of the drive.
> Before I knew what had happened the drive caught fire. The computer
> kept running until I pulled the power out of the drive. At that point the
> SCSI bus hung.
> 
> The room stank for a week, the drive has a chip with 2 eruption craters
> (Cirrus Logic CL-SH350-230C-C). The drive worked really well up to that
> point. :-0
> 
> Needless to say I no longer have servers components exposed in such a
> manor. (DOH!)
> 
> -- 
> Linux Home Automation           Neil Cherry             ncherry@home.net
> http://members.home.net/ncherry                         (Text only)
> http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52           (Graphics)
> http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/				(SourceForge)
> 
> 


From jhellige at earthlink.net  Mon Oct 30 14:07:40 2000
From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: IBM P70 PS/2 machine
In-Reply-To: <E7AC96207335D411B1E7009027FC284906BD34@EXCHANGE2>
References: <E7AC96207335D411B1E7009027FC284906BD34@EXCHANGE2>
Message-ID: <a05001903b623851cd14e@[168.191.215.150]>

	Thanks Mike, I had already found both of those pages.  I've 
already made some deals on MCA SCSI, Ethernet and RAM boards to use 
with the machine and am hoping to track down a keyboard for it.

	Jeff

>Jeff Hellige <jhellige@earthlink.net> asked about the IBM P70
>
>Two links all about the IBM PS/2 P70 red plasma display machine
>http://incolor.inetnebr.com/jshorney/p70.htm
>
>http://www.tavi.co.uk/ps2pages/p70.html
>
>I happen to have a P75 but I'm also missing the keyboard.
>
>Mike
>mmcfadden@cmh.edu

-- 
            Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4
        Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems:
                 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757

From elvey at hal.com  Mon Oct 30 14:32:26 2000
From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: New finds & the Woz!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010292004370.2854-100000@smarty.smart.net>
Message-ID: <200010302032.MAA10475@civic.hal.com>

"R. D. Davis" <rdd@smart.net> wrote:
> 
> Didn't everyone build one of these, as well as AM and FM radio
> transmitters for their own radio station, as a kid?  The circuitry for
> a TV jammer is very simple; just requires a few easily made inductors,
> an RF transistor, antenna, resistors, caps, variable cap and batteries
> (I used two 9V batteries in mine).  The whole thing fit on a hand-made
> PCB that was about 2" by 2" or less.


Hi
 I saw an article that showed that one could put
two junction fets together in such a manner that
it made a negative resistance curve like a tunnel
diode. I did this and made a FM jammer. It used:
1 PFET
1 NFET
1 pot
1 coil
1 tuning cap
1 bypass cap
1 battery

I would think that a standard oscillator could be
done with less transistors but it would require more
total parts. I used to hate opera ( still do ). Most
of this was on FM. A few blanked out signals would eventually
cause the person listening to hunt for another channel.
FM goes completely quite when jammed, unlike AM that squeals.
Dwight


From foo at siconic.com  Mon Oct 30 13:27:39 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: Storage idea!!!
In-Reply-To: <l03102803b6237a51a6ce@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010301126090.1726-100000@siconic.com>

On Mon, 30 Oct 2000, Mike Ford wrote:

> retail part). Foam, bubble wrap, especially the heavy sealed cell shock
> foam I hoard.

Cool, you can have mine.  I'll package it up in bubble wrap and foam and
ship it down.

> Curiously when I told my wife about this great idea she just said she was
> thinking of getting a net for me for some time. I wonder what she meant?

She was probably thinking about other restraints as well...straight
jackets and shackles.

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From mmcfadden at cmh.edu  Mon Oct 30 14:42:17 2000
From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: Storage idea!!!
Message-ID: <E7AC96207335D411B1E7009027FC284906BD35@EXCHANGE2>

Regarding cargo nets attached to the garage ceiling.

I also thought of the same idea, but an interesting occurrence has made me
cautious.  I have several articles attached to my garage ceiling, mainly
sail boat parts and one had a rope release hanging on it.  The dangling rope
release wrapped around the front bar on the car-top carrier on my wife's
van, which pulled the article off the ceiling, my wife now has a cracked
windshield on the van.  I have now shortened the release and taped all loose
ends together.  It also made me worry about some item falling onto the car
if the attachment screws pulled out.  

I now worry less because all of the stuff is now above my car!!

Mike
mmcfadden@cmh.edu

From mikeford at socal.rr.com  Mon Oct 30 15:17:05 2000
From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: Storage idea!!!
In-Reply-To: <E7AC96207335D411B1E7009027FC284906BD35@EXCHANGE2>
Message-ID: <l03102805b62395740a65@[192.168.1.4]>

>I now worry less because all of the stuff is now above my car!!

OTOH I am not too worried about the effects of empty cardboard boxes, rolls
of bubble wrap, or my hoard of foam packing doing any damamge regardless.



From marvin at rain.org  Mon Oct 30 17:12:31 2000
From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: New finds & the Woz!
References: <200010302032.MAA10475@civic.hal.com>
Message-ID: <39FE005F.39D8B6E1@rain.org>



Dwight Elvey wrote:
> 
> "R. D. Davis" <rdd@smart.net> wrote:
> >
> > Didn't everyone build one of these, as well as AM and FM radio
> > transmitters for their own radio station, as a kid?  The circuitry for
> > a TV jammer is very simple; just requires a few easily made inductors,
> > an RF transistor, antenna, resistors, caps, variable cap and batteries
> > (I used two 9V batteries in mine).  The whole thing fit on a hand-made
> > PCB that was about 2" by 2" or less.
> 
> Hi
>  I saw an article that showed that one could put
> two junction fets together in such a manner that
> it made a negative resistance curve like a tunnel
> diode. I did this and made a FM jammer. It used:
> 1 PFET
> 1 NFET
> 1 pot
> 1 coil
> 1 tuning cap
> 1 bypass cap
> 1 battery
> 
> I would think that a standard oscillator could be
> done with less transistors but it would require more
> total parts. I used to hate opera ( still do ). Most
> of this was on FM. A few blanked out signals would eventually
> cause the person listening to hunt for another channel.
> FM goes completely quite when jammed, unlike AM that squeals.

It might be added here that I very much enjoy something called ARDF (Amateur
Radio Direction Finding.) The same techniques can be used to find such
devices rather easily :).

From elvey at hal.com  Mon Oct 30 17:45:38 2000
From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: New finds & the Woz!
In-Reply-To: <39FE005F.39D8B6E1@rain.org>
Message-ID: <200010302345.PAA10578@civic.hal.com>

Marvin <marvin@rain.org> wrote:
> 
> It might be added here that I very much enjoy something called ARDF (Amateur
> Radio Direction Finding.) The same techniques can be used to find such
> devices rather easily :).

Hi
 It should also be noted that here in the US, any jamming
of a lawful receiver is considered against federal law.
Dwight

PS
 Marvin you'll never find my milliwatts. I keep on the move
and I'm vary careful to check my range. Besides, you can't
really like opera.


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Mon Oct 30 17:41:15 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: SMC 2010, 2009 & 3007 dip chips???
Message-ID: <003c01c042cc$c55ecd60$9d779a8d@ajp166>

From: Eric Smith <eric@brouhaha.com>


>> I have a SMC 2010B with a date code of 7736 in Ceramic with gold legs.
Is
>> this a second source of the Western Digital or something different?
>
>Although SMC did second source many Western Digital chips, this one is
>about seven years too early to be the 2010 HDC.


No that would be about right for that chip... 1987.  My 1985 SMC catalong
lists
the 2010 as "preliminary".

Allison




From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Mon Oct 30 17:49:37 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: CP/M 1.3 memory requirement
Message-ID: <003d01c042cc$c5f938a0$9d779a8d@ajp166>

From: Jeff Hellige <jhellige@earthlink.net>


> What is the least amount of memory that CP/M 1.3 will run in?
>-- 


The standard distribution sized for memory as:

    1.3     16k
    1.4     16k
    2.0     20k
    2.2     20k

This was the expected memeory for the startup of a distribution disk
as it was "sysgened" for that size.  It left enough space in all cases
to run sysgen(or movcpm) and leave an images in the available TPA.

The actual memory needed, using the standard SSSD 8" distibution of
2.0/2.2 was 2k for the CCP (when loaded), 3584 byts for the BDOS 
and about 1k to 1500bytes for the BIOS.  The 1.3 version was only 
slightly smaller.


Allison


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Mon Oct 30 17:51:08 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: CP/M 1.3 memory requirement
Message-ID: <003e01c042cc$c6a13870$9d779a8d@ajp166>

From: Don Maslin <donm@cts.com>

>On Sun, 29 Oct 2000, Jeff Hellige wrote:
>
>> What is the least amount of memory that CP/M 1.3 will run in?
>
>Well, I am not at all certain about 1.3, but I have a DRI distribution
>disk for 2.2 that is set up for 20k.  


Don, 1.3 and 1.4 were built as 16k for the distribution disks.

Allison


From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 30 17:47:51 2000
From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: Splitting binary files for burning EPROMs...
Message-ID: <20001030234751.46775.qmail@web9503.mail.yahoo.com>


OK... so without taking the time to write a C program to do this for me,
I have this binary file that is a memory dump of 256KB saved on a 32-bit
machine..  I need to output four files, 64KB each, that are the component
bytes of that memory space.  I know I can write a program to do this.  Are
there any handy tools lying around so that I don't have to?

Thanks,

-ethan


=====
Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to
vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com

The original webpage address is still going away.  The 
permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/

See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf!  It's FREE.
http://im.yahoo.com/

From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Mon Oct 30 18:08:52 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: New finds & the Woz!
Message-ID: <007f01c042ce$e315d950$9d779a8d@ajp166>

From: Dwight Elvey <elvey@hal.com>


> I saw an article that showed that one could put
>two junction fets together in such a manner that
>it made a negative resistance curve like a tunnel
>diode. I did this and made a FM jammer. It used:


Over the years I've used...

    UV201  (old valve)
    6c4    (no nearly so old valve)
    2n170 (ge transistor FT about 30mhz)
    real tunnel diode (1n3117)
    hand picked diode with transistor (basic osc and comb generator)
        (generates uniform level rf carrier every 500khz through ~100mhz)
    Zener with 60db gain centered at 100mhz (very white noise!)
    My favorite 2n706 (Si NPN computer transistor) WIDE FM modulated with
        White noise source (zener followed with gain).
    pseudo random digial word driving PLL
        (every frequency possible on 50khz centers for an octave,
100-200mhz)

>I would think that a standard oscillator could be
>done with less transistors but it would require more


not many,  One fet, cap, coil, bypass cap, battery.

>of this was on FM. A few blanked out signals would eventually
>cause the person listening to hunt for another channel.
>FM goes completely quite when jammed, unlike AM that squeals.


AM squeals are avoided by being exactly on freq and holding that.  ;)

Allison


From at258 at osfn.org  Mon Oct 30 18:16:13 2000
From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: Storage idea!!!
In-Reply-To: <l03102803b6237a51a6ce@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.1001030191517.19972C-100000@osfn.org>

On Mon, 30 Oct 2000, Mike Ford wrote:

> Actually I have been doing major tossing of CERTAIN sizes of boxes, worn
> boxes, but the company my wife works for just got in a half dozen large
> monitors and I grabbed the boxes blindly since big ones like that I have
> had to BUY (shaking from the B word, trying not to think about the full
> retail part). Foam, bubble wrap, especially the heavy sealed cell shock
> foam I hoard.
> 
> Curiously when I told my wife about this great idea she just said she was
> thinking of getting a net for me for some time. I wonder what she meant?

It seems she's planning on overhead storage for you in the garage...

From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Mon Oct 30 18:11:47 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: New finds & the Woz!
Message-ID: <008601c042d0$fd1c8770$9d779a8d@ajp166>


-----Original Message-----


>It might be added here that I very much enjoy something called ARDF
(Amateur
>Radio Direction Finding.) The same techniques can be used to find such
>devices rather easily :).

I had one that defied that somewhat.  Used two antennas with diversty
mode
switching (both location and polarization).  It was a favorite pastime.


Allison



From jhellige at earthlink.net  Mon Oct 30 18:18:28 2000
From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: CP/M 1.3 memory requirement
In-Reply-To: <003d01c042cc$c5f938a0$9d779a8d@ajp166>
References: <003d01c042cc$c5f938a0$9d779a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <a05001901b623bf167522@[168.191.216.111]>

	It looks like I'll have to pick up another 4k SRAM board 
before I even begin to try and boot CP/M then, as my S-100 system 
only has 12k (1-8k, 1-4k).  It had 40k in it at one point but the 
other boards are long gone.  I have to make a minor solder repair to 
the powerboard for the floppy still, but after that I'll be trying to 
boot CP/M 1.30 from Lifeboat Associates from a North Star disk 
system.  Now that my move is almost here, I can start thinking about 
working on this machine again.

	Jeff

>
>The standard distribution sized for memory as:
>
>     1.3     16k
>     1.4     16k
>     2.0     20k
>     2.2     20k
>
>This was the expected memeory for the startup of a distribution disk
>as it was "sysgened" for that size.  It left enough space in all cases
>to run sysgen(or movcpm) and leave an images in the available TPA.
>
>The actual memory needed, using the standard SSSD 8" distibution of
>2.0/2.2 was 2k for the CCP (when loaded), 3584 byts for the BDOS
>and about 1k to 1500bytes for the BIOS.  The 1.3 version was only
>slightly smaller.
>
>
>Allison

-- 
            Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4
        Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems:
                 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757

From claudew at sprint.ca  Mon Oct 30 18:38:54 2000
From: claudew at sprint.ca (Claude)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: Pinout signal connector + specs for NEC JC-1216DFA monitor?
Message-ID: <39FE149E.A3AE035E@sprint.ca>

Hi

Hate to throw this one in garbage, it's like new.

Looking for pinout for signal and specs for a (1985 production date) NEC
JC-1216DFA COLOR CHARACTER DISPLAY monitor.

Looks like a standard ttl color but its got a 8 pin (2 rows 4 pins with
2 top ones spaced for polarisation with DND stamped on it) connector
that I have only seen on old (1970-1980) video camera equipement and
such. Never seen this for a computer video signal connector.

I looked inside and judging from the chips around the input connector
looks like it's ttl color. Did not bother to trace circuit more to
figure out pinout. Taught someone would know...

Before I throw it out or give it away, I want to know more, see if it
can be used in some way for me...

Thanks for reading

Claude

From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Mon Oct 30 18:48:34 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: New finds & the Woz!
Message-ID: <009c01c042d5$33c28ff0$9d779a8d@ajp166>

From: Dwight Elvey <elvey@hal.com>
>Hi
> It should also be noted that here in the US, any jamming
>of a lawful receiver is considered against federal law.
>Dwight


Dont bet on this.  Read part 15 carefully.  depending on the service
and all it may not only be permitted it may be a case of the reciever
(or its owner) has to live or deal with it by adjusting their end of the
problem.  What you say USED to be absolutly true, then the last 20
years of radio pollution forced the FCC out of the RFI management
business.

Allison


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Mon Oct 30 19:09:40 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: CP/M 1.3 memory requirement
Message-ID: <00ad01c042d7$50d62ff0$9d779a8d@ajp166>

From: Jeff Hellige <jhellige@earthlink.net>
>other boards are long gone.  I have to make a minor solder repair to
>the powerboard for the floppy still, but after that I'll be trying to
>boot CP/M 1.30 from Lifeboat Associates from a North Star disk
>system.  Now that my move is almost here, I can start thinking about
>working on this machine again.
>
> Jeff


Ah, you may need more memory for that.  The Lifeboat NS* dist for 1.4
needs 4k more, they sorta grafted the NS* dos to the BIOS as disk
drivers so it's a bit fat.  I bought the 1.4 copy way back when (it was
new release then).

Assuming its for a NS* Horizon it will be personalized for the default
NS*
IO addresses.  HOWEVER... it was also distributed without IO
personalization.  You will need NS* dos and one of the monitors or do
it from the front pannel.  I know I did that using the first machine
(altair)
before I moved to a real NS* horizon.  DOCs for that version are a must
or hope there is a readable example on disk.


Allison


From jhellige at earthlink.net  Mon Oct 30 19:42:46 2000
From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: CP/M 1.3 memory requirement
In-Reply-To: <00ad01c042d7$50d62ff0$9d779a8d@ajp166>
References: <00ad01c042d7$50d62ff0$9d779a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <a05001900b623d133b909@[168.191.216.111]>

	Actually, it's for a homebuilt S-100 bus system with the 
following boards:

	WAMECO QM-1A 12 slot motherboard
	Suntronics SBC-780 Z80 CPU board
	ECT 8KM 8k SRAM board
	Processor Tech 4K-RA SRAM board
	Solid State Music VB1 video interface board
	Shugart SA400 floppy drive with Northstar powerboard
	Northstar Micro-Disk System MDS-A

	The CP/M 1.3 disk, as well as the North Star NDOS disk, were 
given to me by the original builder of the machine.  He also wrote a 
small monitor program which resides on the CPU board.  One of the 
CP/M disks is the original Lifeboat distribution disk, while two 
others are costumized, handlabled '27k CP/M' and '43k CP/M'.

	Jeff

>Assuming its for a NS* Horizon it will be personalized for the default
>NS*
>IO addresses.  HOWEVER... it was also distributed without IO
>personalization.  You will need NS* dos and one of the monitors or do
>it from the front pannel.  I know I did that using the first machine
>(altair)
>before I moved to a real NS* horizon.  DOCs for that version are a must
>or hope there is a readable example on disk.
>
>
>Allison

-- 
            Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4
        Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems:
                 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757
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From eric at brouhaha.com  Mon Oct 30 19:43:19 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: SMC 2010, 2009 & 3007 dip chips???
In-Reply-To: <003c01c042cc$c55ecd60$9d779a8d@ajp166>
References: <003c01c042cc$c55ecd60$9d779a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <20001031014319.32408.qmail@brouhaha.com>

Someone (Paxton, I think?) wrote:
> I have a SMC 2010B with a date code of 7736 in Ceramic with gold legs.
> Is this a second source of the Western Digital or something different?

I wrote:
> Although SMC did second source many Western Digital chips, this one is
> about seven years too early to be the 2010 HDC.

Allison wrote:
> No that would be about right for that chip... 1987.  My 1985 SMC catalong
> lists
> the 2010 as "preliminary".

No, that's *wrong* for that chip.  Paxton's 7736 date code means 1977,
not 1987.

5.25 inch Winchester disk drives were not introduced until 1981 or so, and
the WD1010 "single-chip" controller (which it wasn't really) was several
years later, and the WD2010 was later yet.

WD started their Winchester disk support with the WD110 series MSI parts,
which together with the Signetics 8X300 processor formed the basis of
the WD1000 board-level controller.  The general architecture of the
WD1000 lives on to this day (unfortunately) as the basis for the IDE (ATA)
disk interface.

As regards the WD2010, I don't have my SMC data books handy, but I expect
SMC must have done one of:

1)  not second-sourced the 2010
2)  second-sourced it with a different number
3)  reused the part number (disgusting, but it's been known to happen)

I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't second-source it, since they
second-sourced the NEC 7261 (and several variants), and designed
several of their own.

Eric




From eric at brouhaha.com  Mon Oct 30 19:44:13 2000
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: Splitting binary files for burning EPROMs...
In-Reply-To: <20001030234751.46775.qmail@web9503.mail.yahoo.com> (message from
	Ethan Dicks on Mon, 30 Oct 2000 15:47:51 -0800 (PST))
References: <20001030234751.46775.qmail@web9503.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20001031014413.32424.qmail@brouhaha.com>

> OK... so without taking the time to write a C program to do this for me,
> I have this binary file that is a memory dump of 256KB saved on a 32-bit
> machine..  I need to output four files, 64KB each, that are the component
> bytes of that memory space.  I know I can write a program to do this.  Are
> there any handy tools lying around so that I don't have to?

http://www.canb.auug.org.au/~millerp/srecord.html

From whdawson at mlynk.com  Mon Oct 30 19:50:57 2000
From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: Diskette compatibility question.
In-Reply-To: <m13qJfU-000IyHC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <000701c042dd$035ff5c0$7e9e72d1@cobweb.net>

-> To answer the other poster, one day I'll get round to learning HTML,
and
-> then I'll set up a website. But don't hold your breath.
->
-> However, you're welcome to put anything that I've posted publicly
-> (unless it's obviously a mistake) on any suitable free web site. So
if
-> somebody is running a classiccmp web site, feel free to stick it up.

Done.  Check out the "Bill's knowledge base" link at
http://www.swtpc.com/

And again, thanks Jay!

Bill


From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Mon Oct 30 21:17:10 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: Splitting binary files for burning EPROMs...
In-Reply-To: <20001030234751.46775.qmail@web9503.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001030221710.12af855a@mailhost.intellistar.net>

Ethan,

   I've done this in Wordstar in the non-document mode. MANY years ago I
had to transfer a 10 Mb file to a customer's computer in Canada using only
360K disks. I loaded the file into Wordstar (it will work on files larger
than it's memory) and cut it into ~330K blocks and saved each one to a
disk. When I got to Canada I simply copied and concatenated the files (copy
file1+file2+file bigfile). It worked perfectly.


    Joe

At 03:47 PM 10/30/00 -0800, you wrote:
>
>OK... so without taking the time to write a C program to do this for me,
>I have this binary file that is a memory dump of 256KB saved on a 32-bit
>machine..  I need to output four files, 64KB each, that are the component
>bytes of that memory space.  I know I can write a program to do this.  Are
>there any handy tools lying around so that I don't have to?
>
>Thanks,
>
>-ethan
>
>
>=====
>Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to
>vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com
>
>The original webpage address is still going away.  The 
>permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/
>
>See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details.
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf!  It's FREE.
>http://im.yahoo.com/
>


From zmerch at 30below.com  Mon Oct 30 20:37:47 2000
From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: Splitting binary files for burning EPROMs...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001030221710.12af855a@mailhost.intellistar.net>
References: <20001030234751.46775.qmail@web9503.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20001030213747.01b32a70@mail.30below.com>

Rumor has it that Joe may have mentioned these words:
>Ethan,
>
>   I've done this in Wordstar in the non-document mode. MANY years ago I
>had to transfer a 10 Mb file to a customer's computer in Canada using only
>360K disks. I loaded the file into Wordstar (it will work on files larger
>than it's memory) and cut it into ~330K blocks and saved each one to a
>disk. When I got to Canada I simply copied and concatenated the files (copy
>file1+file2+file bigfile). It worked perfectly.

Hmmm... this isn't exactly what he's looking for... he also needs to split
up the data in 8bit chunks as well, as he stated he was working with a
32-bit word file.

It sounds (at least to me) that he's writing 4 64Kbyte eproms that have to
exist in parallel on a 32-bit data bus for the total of 256Kbyte... so the
file would be like this:

byte1 byte2 byte3 byte4 byte5 byte6 byte7 byte8 byte9 byte10 byte11
byte12.............. etc.

And the four files would start out like this:

File 1:
byte1 byte5 byte9 ...

File 2:
byte2 byte6 byte10 ...

File 3:
byte3 byte7 byte11 ...

File 4:
byte4 byte8 byte12 ...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how I interpret what he needs to do...

HTH,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger

--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger   ---   sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
Recycling is good, right???  Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig.

If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead
disarmament should *not* be your first career choice.

From jtinker at coin.org  Mon Oct 30 20:46:43 2000
From: jtinker at coin.org (John Tinker)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: New finds & the Woz!
References: <200010302345.PAA10578@civic.hal.com>
Message-ID: <39FE3291.51B375B6@coin.org>

I've been lurking for a while, but had to jump in on this one.

I will testify that it is possible to like opera. It happened to me for a while
when I was a kid. It was subtle, but I'm pretty sure I remember correctly that I
liked it. Later I think my class-consciousness screwed up the innocent affection I
had for it. But somehow I thought it was neat that anyone would speak routinely in
song, like they do in opera.

I probably wouldn't go after your milliwatts, unless you did it too close to my
receiver. But I've fantasized about being able to do RDF, especially on weak and
transient signals.

John, KF0NM

Dwight Elvey wrote:

> Marvin <marvin@rain.org> wrote:
> >
> > It might be added here that I very much enjoy something called ARDF (Amateur
> > Radio Direction Finding.) The same techniques can be used to find such
> > devices rather easily :).
>
> Hi
>  It should also be noted that here in the US, any jamming
> of a lawful receiver is considered against federal law.
> Dwight
>
> PS
>  Marvin you'll never find my milliwatts. I keep on the move
> and I'm vary careful to check my range. Besides, you can't
> really like opera.


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Mon Oct 30 20:56:31 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: CP/M 1.3 memory requirement
Message-ID: <00ed01c042e8$1ecb74f0$9d779a8d@ajp166>

From: Jeff Hellige <jhellige@earthlink.net>
>
> WAMECO QM-1A 12 slot motherboard


    Just gave one of those away.

> Suntronics SBC-780 Z80 CPU board
> ECT 8KM 8k SRAM board
> Processor Tech 4K-RA SRAM board
> Solid State Music VB1 video interface board
> Shugart SA400 floppy drive with Northstar powerboard
> Northstar Micro-Disk System MDS-A


Cool, typical of many non horizon NS* systems.  A bit of this
and that.

Uhm what are you using for keyboard input if the VDM is output?

> The CP/M 1.3 disk, as well as the North Star NDOS disk, were 
>given to me by the original builder of the machine.  He also wrote a 
>small monitor program which resides on the CPU board.  One of the 
>CP/M disks is the original Lifeboat distribution disk, while two 
>others are costumized, handlabled '27k CP/M' and '43k CP/M'.


I did some looking and find nothing that says Lifeboat did 1.3
for NS*.  The copy I have is 1.403 for NS*.  They may have 
done 1.3 but the timeframes for 1.3 and Lifeboat are off.

Sounds like you need more ram.  Get another 16k for safety.
A cromemco ram16 or ram17 should be easy enough to find
or other 64k static.



Allison


From cem14 at cornell.edu  Mon Oct 30 21:20:08 2000
From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: Splitting binary files for burning EPROMs...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20001030213747.01b32a70@mail.30below.com>
References: <3.0.1.16.20001030221710.12af855a@mailhost.intellistar.net>
 <20001030234751.46775.qmail@web9503.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20001030222008.006998dc@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu>

At 09:37 PM 10/30/00 -0500, you wrote:
>It sounds (at least to me) that he's writing 4 64Kbyte eproms that have to
>exist in parallel on a 32-bit data bus for the total of 256Kbyte... so the
>file would be like this:
>
>byte1 byte2 byte3 byte4 byte5 byte6 byte7 byte8 byte9 byte10 byte11
>byte12.............. etc.
>
>And the four files would start out like this:
>
>File 1:
>byte1 byte5 byte9 ...
>
>File 2:
>byte2 byte6 byte10 ...

...snip...

and of course, you need to know the "endianness" of the machine
where the dump was generated to see which file corresponds
to which column-slice of the rom.

carlos.



From richard at idcomm.com  Mon Oct 30 21:31:40 2000
From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: Monitor for iSBC 8024
References: <005d01c041d9$bcee81f0$59779a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <000f01c042eb$15a422c0$a2483cd1@winbook>

Please see embedded remarks below.

Dick

----- Original Message -----
From: ajp166 <ajp166@bellatlantic.net>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2000 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: Monitor for iSBC 8024


> From: Richard Erlacher <richard@idcomm.com>
> >> From: Richard Erlacher <richard@idcomm.com>
> >>
> >>
> >> Use the editor that comes with the mailer, please.
> >>
> >
> >What???
>
It's the term "mailer" that confused me.
>
> Unless your system is severely crippled your Email has an
> editor that will allow your to strip the excess non relevent text.
> Try it, make it easier to read on the other end.
>
> >> I havent a clue why you said that at all since the origin of the
> smallc-c
> >> compiler is 8080?  I still have the original DDJ articles with
> sources.
> >>
> >What I said (I thought) was that I don't want to fiddle with small-C to
> the
> >extent of writing a new code generator for the 'HC11, 'HC05's,
> 805x-series,
> >PIC, etc, since Hi-Tech already has a code generator for their compiler
> for
>
>
> No problem with that.  But I thought the initial problem was testing a
> bunch
> of ISBC8020s?  Where did all the other excess about other cpus come
> into that?
>
> >each of those.  It would be a BIG job to do that for the Hendrix
compiler,
> >reduced though it is, since what's needed is a general enough compiler
> >that once I write a debug monitor based on some existing model I already
have
>
what this refers to is the fact that I've used neither small-C or the
Hi-Tech compiler, and before I wade into yet another quagmire, for this
specific job, unless it leads me into a new tool that I can use later.  Back
when these older tools were developed, there was no standard for 'C' and the
K&R "proposal" was seldom adhered to enough to allow one to rely on it.
What interests me about the HI-Tech compiler is that the thing supports the
'HC11, HC05, PIC, and TMS320 family.  That's sufficient capability to
warrant the effort of learning it.  The small-C would take a lot of work,
particularly since it's not written in a dialect of 'C' that is familiar to
me.  I do, by the way, have the Mix-C compiler and its CP/M based
antecedent.  I just realize, unlike lots of other, for some of whom it's
perhaps not yet the case, that I'm getting close to full capacity,
memory-wise, and I really don't want to learn yet another odd-ball compiler.
I'd rather do the job in assembler <sigh>.

The Hi-tech compiler, if the documentation is to be believed, doesn't have a
code generator for the 8080 and 8085, BTW.  It's a pretty decent
possibility, however, "less-than-perfect" this compiler may be, if it were
to be fit to generate a "solution" to my problem, I'd use it.  It's on the
list, but I'm not ready to wander into the quagmire without an account to
which to bill the time, (yet).  It's not that I need to have someone pay for
me to learn what I don't know, but I do need a motivation to start, and a
deadline makes the job get done.  I haven't used one of these
8020-descendants for several years, but a debug monitor written in a dialect
that supports everything that I might soon use would serve as a motivator.
>
> I wouldn't know, I did did the later version for Z80 with TDL opcodes.
>
I have a bunch of TDL stuff, but have never used it myself.
>
> >know.  It's not enough that the 8080 and Z80 are already supported,
> since
>
what for?  There are native tools that are completely useable.
>
> Also 8088 and maybe later.
>
> >I'll only need to use the 8080, which, BTW, it's not obvious that the
> >Hi-Tech 'C' supports.  As I said, if I'm going to wander into the
> quagmire,
>
>
> I avoid the quagmire and use asm.
>
> >the near future.  I'm quite sure nobody is going to hire me to generate
> code
> >for the Z80 or 8080.  I've been known to write code in assembler as
> well,
> >but haven't done anything for hire in about 10 years that has required
> Z80
> >or 8080 coding.
>
>
> While I understand the desire it's all outside the scope of the original
> problem to test and apparently use a bunch of 8085 multibus cards.
>
> Oh, Z80 is still out there as Z180, Z380 and Rabbit for embedded
> apps and CPU library cores in gate arrays.
>
I don't see that as a justification for paying attention to them.  The 650x
core is out there too, only at 5-10 MIPS in a core and at about half that
pin-compatible version.  The core is significantly smaller than the Z80
equivalent, though it's because it has fewer resources.  Performance,
however, is considerably better.  That might depend on how it's to be used,
however.  The Rabbit is promising, but it's sole-sourced.
>
> Allison
>
>
>


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Mon Oct 30 21:28:10 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: New finds & the Woz!
Message-ID: <010401c042ec$57dadc50$9d779a8d@ajp166>

>I probably wouldn't go after your milliwatts, unless you did it too
close to my
>receiver. But I've fantasized about being able to do RDF, especially on
weak and
>transient signals.


It's an art and science.

Allison


From jhellige at earthlink.net  Mon Oct 30 21:52:18 2000
From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: CP/M 1.3 memory requirement
In-Reply-To: <00ed01c042e8$1ecb74f0$9d779a8d@ajp166>
References: <00ed01c042e8$1ecb74f0$9d779a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <a05001900b623eef8bc53@[168.191.215.212]>

	Actually the Solid State Music video board is a holdover from 
his Altair, which contributed a number of parts that went into this 
machine.  He had used the VDM and a homegrown parallel keyboard 
interface with the Altair, as well as with this machine when it had 
an 8080 in it.  Then he upgraded it to the Z80, which inluded both 
serial and parallel ports on the CPU board, so the VDM is no longer 
needed or used.  He used a serial terminal connected directly to the 
CPU board.  I've got the source code here that he used to interface 
the VB1 with a SWTP KBD5 keyboard, ProTech 3P+S IO board, and the 
North Star mini floppy in an Altair 8800.  He purchased the Northstar 
Micro-Disk System MDS-A with a MDC-A3 controller board in November 
'77 for $599.

	The Lifeboat distribution disk is labled:

	CP/M On North Star Disk
	Copyright 1977 Digital Research
	Copyright 1977 Lifeboat Associates
	Version 1.30    Serial No. 14-040

	Jeff

>
>Uhm what are you using for keyboard input if the VDM is output?
>
>>  The CP/M 1.3 disk, as well as the North Star NDOS disk, were
>>given to me by the original builder of the machine.  He also wrote a
>>small monitor program which resides on the CPU board.  One of the
>>CP/M disks is the original Lifeboat distribution disk, while two
>>others are costumized, handlabled '27k CP/M' and '43k CP/M'.
>
>
>I did some looking and find nothing that says Lifeboat did 1.3
>for NS*.  The copy I have is 1.403 for NS*.  They may have
>done 1.3 but the timeframes for 1.3 and Lifeboat are off.
>
>Sounds like you need more ram.  Get another 16k for safety.
>A cromemco ram16 or ram17 should be easy enough to find
>or other 64k static.
>
>
>
>Allison

-- 
            Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4
        Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems:
                 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757

From richard at idcomm.com  Mon Oct 30 21:54:58 2000
From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: Monitor for iSBC 8024
References: <009201c041e8$1d955d40$59779a8d@ajp166> <14844.40088.72034.420835@phaduka.neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <002901c042ee$56fdd7e0$a2483cd1@winbook>

I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions to the "faster is better" notion.  A
couple of manufacturers still make 8048 derivative processors for things
like motor control and remote controls for your home entertainment system.
That doesn't make them the best, nor does it make them the worst, but
there's probably more than one single-chipper for any of those tasks.

Single-chipper is the key term, though.  The Z80 isn't a single-chipper, nor
is the 64180 or the Z380, or the 6502.  The fact that the parts count is
greater than it would be with a comparably capable MCU is what's made this
sort of part fade into the background.  As a CPU, the Z80 was pretty much
the best available when processors of its class were considered suitable for
the microcomputer market.  Those days are gone, however, and I'd not give
the Z80 more than a quick look if and only if my client insisted, since it
invariably would demand more parts than, say, a member of the 805x family.
It certainly couldn't compete in the market where PIC's and the like earn
their keep.

Dick

----- Original Message -----
From: Dave McGuire <mcguire@neurotica.com>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2000 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: Monitor for iSBC 8024


> On October 29, ajp166 wrote:
> > >  I explained that I was running a Z80-based general-purpose computer
> > >fifteen years ago (an IMSAI with a CCS Z80 CPU board which I still
> >
> > Late adoptor?  the first Z80 for me was 1977 (january), NS* running
> > at the astronomical speed of 4mhz.  That makes that board 23.8
> > years old.
>
>   Well, I suppose it was more like seventeen years ago...I was
> thirteen...
>
> > >have) as my main machine, and that the Z80 processor was a
> > >general-purpose machine that was very popular in the 70s and 80s...and
> > >was definitely nothing "new".
> > >
> > >  Know what?  HE DIDN'T BELIEVE ME!!
> >
> > Caution clue LART in use.  I'd have smacked him in the snout with a
> > rolled up Zilog data book, Ca 1976.
>
>   I'll be showing him mine next week. :)
>
> > >  So, yes, folks...the Z80 seems to be gearing up for a second
> > >life...this time as an embedded processor.  There are many variations
> >
> > No, its been there for the last, oh 15 years doing that.
>
>   Of course, but now it's *only* doing that, mainstream-wise.  I was
> attempting to point out the shift in role from being a mainstream
> general-purpose processor to being one used almost entirely for
> embedded applications.
>
>
>             -Dave McGuire
>
>


From richard at idcomm.com  Mon Oct 30 22:09:53 2000
From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: SMC 2010, 2009 & 3007 dip chips???
References: <b3.26c6ddf.272dc572@aol.com> <20001030030619.24287.qmail@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <004101c042f0$6ca04180$a2483cd1@winbook>

Well, the 7730 isn't year-week as some makers do.  The technology wasn't far
enough along in '77 to produce the 1010/2010 in 77.  Once the WD179x series
became popular, Western and SMC did a lot of trading, Western getting rights
to produce some of SMC's comm devices, and SMC getting the rights to build
179x parts, which were very much in demand.  The deals continued between the
two companies, but Western didn't have the 1010 until '82, and didn't start
full-scale production until late that year.  The 2010 was on more or less
the same time-table, but there were technical and political problems within
the company that delayed the availability of the 2010.  In '77 the ST506
drive wasn't even available yet.  They did start and specify a 1010-08 but
I've never seen one.

You'll have to try that part you have in a known-good application just to
see whether it's the same part.

Dick

----- Original Message -----
From: Eric Smith <eric@brouhaha.com>
To: <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2000 8:06 PM
Subject: Re: SMC 2010, 2009 & 3007 dip chips???


> > I have a SMC 2010B with a date code of 7736 in Ceramic with gold legs.
Is
> > this a second source of the Western Digital or something different?
>
> Although SMC did second source many Western Digital chips, this one is
> about seven years too early to be the 2010 HDC.
>
>


From jate at uwasa.fi  Tue Oct 31 01:15:29 2000
From: jate at uwasa.fi (Jarkko Hermanni Teppo)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: Old HP Stuff Available
In-Reply-To: <m13qK3R-000IyHC@p850ug1>; from ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk on Mon, Oct 30, 2000 at 06:53:06PM +0000
References: <3.0.1.16.20001030075237.3b7febf8@mailhost.intellistar.net> <m13qK3R-000IyHC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <20001031091529.B26969@loisto.uwasa.fi>

On Mon, Oct 30, 2000 at 06:53:06PM +0000, Tony Duell wrote:
[good description snipped]
> Is there any way to make it do something useful other than act as an SRM 
> server? Not having any other machines with SRM interfaces, a server is 
> not a lot of use as it stands...
> 

(DISCLAIMER: I don't know.)
It is remotely similar to a 9000/310 ? If I remember correctly 310 had a 
68010 and probably the same HP DMA chip too. The DIO-I bus is pretty
standard, the only thing that might need changing could be the video
card. I really don't know, I've never used HP BASIC.

I just remembered, I have one 310 lying around somewhere, though I'll be 
able to look at it during the weekend.  I guess I'll need HP BASIC on 
9144 (or 9145) carts.

Iff you're really adventurous you could try use some parts of the
NetBSD/hp300 code and roll your own OS. The bus, HP-IB chips, DMA controller,
HIL stuff etc. are the same (locore.s wouldn't probably help that much:)

If you have HP BASIC you could give it a shot.
-- 
Jarkko Teppo
jate@uwasa.fi


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Tue Oct 31 06:13:40 2000
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: TRS80 PT210 and other finds...
In-Reply-To: <39FB764E.C020980F@sprint.ca>
Message-ID: <39FEC584.20088.3606FF5@localhost>

> I am posting the prices cause it can only maybe help deflate those
> "inflated" e-bay prices...these are all canadian $'s...these days
> $1can=$0.65-$0.70us...

:))

> TRS80 PT210 terminal (original owner/manual works) $10

So, what's a PT210 ?

Gruss
H.

--
VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen
http://www.vintage.org/vcfe
http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org  Tue Oct 31 07:19:17 2000
From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: TCP/IP for AT&T SysV R4 V2.1
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001030103302.00ca38a0@192.168.210.18> from Bill Layer
 at "Oct 30, 2000 10:35:59 am"
Message-ID: <200010311319.e9VDJHO04352@bg-tc-ppp510.monmouth.com>

> This is a semi-repeat request. Please excuse the bandwidth.
> 
> I'm playing with an old machine that has AT&T SysV UNIX Release 4, Ver 2.1. 
> There is no TCP/IP networking package that I can find. Can someone tell me 
> if TCP/IP is available, and from where it may be gotten? The post about the 
> VAX got me interested again...
> 
> 
> 
> Bill Layer
> Sales Technician
> <b.layer@vikingelectronics.com>
> 

One possibility (for non-commercial use) is getting the SCO Unixware
license and CD set which is SVR4 from about the same timeframe.

It includes X and TCP/IP...

So if it's PC compatible and you want a real SVR4 varient instead of
Linux/FreeBSD/OpenBSD/NetBSD....

It works.

I've got the SCO 2.1 Unixware and Open Desktop... but I'm pretty much
running Solaris8, Solaris 7, FreeBSD 4.1.1-Stable and Linux 2.4 here.

Bill


From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Tue Oct 31 08:17:52 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: Splitting binary files for burning EPROMs...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20001030213747.01b32a70@mail.30below.com>
References: <3.0.1.16.20001030221710.12af855a@mailhost.intellistar.net>
 <20001030234751.46775.qmail@web9503.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001031091752.36f760e4@mailhost.intellistar.net>

At 09:37 PM 10/30/00 -0500, Roger wrote:
>Rumor has it that Joe may have mentioned these words:
>>Ethan,
>>
>>   I've done this in Wordstar in the non-document mode. MANY years ago I
>>had to transfer a 10 Mb file to a customer's computer in Canada using only
>>360K disks. I loaded the file into Wordstar (it will work on files larger
>>than it's memory) and cut it into ~330K blocks and saved each one to a
>>disk. When I got to Canada I simply copied and concatenated the files (copy
>>file1+file2+file bigfile). It worked perfectly.
>
>Hmmm... this isn't exactly what he's looking for... he also needs to split
>up the data in 8bit chunks as well, as he stated he was working with a
>32-bit word file.

   I thought that too at first but I re-read his messsage and it didn't say
that. It said that he wanted to take a 256K memory dump and break it into
64K chucks for archiving so I gathered that he wanted to leave it in 32 bit
words.  I'm not sure what he's really after, his message wqasn't very clear.

>
>It sounds (at least to me) that he's writing 4 64Kbyte eproms that have to
>exist in parallel on a 32-bit data bus for the total of 256Kbyte... so the
>file would be like this:

  <snip>

   Yes, that the best way to do it if he's going to put it into EPROMs.  I
think the site that Eric suggested
(http://www.canb.auug.org.au/~millerp/srecord.html) has a program to do
that. So that should take care of his needs.

    Joe


From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com  Tue Oct 31 09:27:20 2000
From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: Splitting binary files for burning EPROMs...
Message-ID: <20001031152720.96689.qmail@web9502.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Carlos Murillo <cem14@cornell.edu> wrote:
> At 09:37 PM 10/30/00 -0500, you wrote:
> >It sounds (at least to me) that he's writing 4 64Kbyte eproms that have to
> >exist in parallel on a 32-bit data bus for the total of 256Kbyte...

Yes.  I'm sorry I wasn't more clear.  I _did_ mention the 32-bitness of
the target machine. 

> >byte1 byte2 byte3 byte4 byte5 byte6...
> >
> >And the four files would start out like this:
> >
> >File 1:
> >byte1 byte5 byte9 ...
> >
> >File 2:
> >byte2 byte6 byte10 ...

Right.  If all I wanted was four 64KB files that concatenated into the
original, I could use split.

> and of course, you need to know the "endianness" of the machine
> where the dump was generated to see which file corresponds
> to which column-slice of the rom.

Also true.  I'll be guessing because the ROM sockets are not numbered
on the board.  :-(   It's a VAXstation/MicroVAX 2000, if anyone happens
to know what the EPROM byte order is.

I got an EPROM splitter utility from Don Maslin (thanks, Don!)  It 
appears to be just what I was after.

Sorry for the confusion and wasted bandwidth.

-ethan


=====
Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to
vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com

The original webpage address is still going away.  The 
permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/

See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf!  It's FREE.
http://im.yahoo.com/

From jtinker at coin.org  Tue Oct 31 09:31:03 2000
From: jtinker at coin.org (John Tinker)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: combined inventory of computer museums?
References: <3.0.1.16.20001030221710.12af855a@mailhost.intellistar.net>
	 <20001030234751.46775.qmail@web9503.mail.yahoo.com> <3.0.1.16.20001031091752.36f760e4@mailhost.intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <39FEE5B7.32D2A533@coin.org>

Is anybody mantaining a combined inventory of the various computer museums out
there?

Machines I am looking for:

Scelbi H8
Microkit 8/16
Imlac PDS-1
HP 85

Thanks,
-- John Tinker




From jhellige at earthlink.net  Tue Oct 31 10:17:12 2000
From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: combined inventory of computer museums?
In-Reply-To: <39FEE5B7.32D2A533@coin.org>
References: <3.0.1.16.20001030221710.12af855a@mailhost.intellistar.net>	
 <20001030234751.46775.qmail@web9503.mail.yahoo.com>
 <3.0.1.16.20001031091752.36f760e4@mailhost.intellistar.net>
 <39FEE5B7.32D2A533@coin.org>
Message-ID: <a05001900b624a0a7e320@[168.191.216.103]>

For the less-common machines it might be interesting to keep a kind 
of database or registry.  It's something that other hobbies do.  It'd 
be quite a task though!

	Jeff

>Is anybody mantaining a combined inventory of the various computer museums out
>there?
>
>Machines I am looking for:
>
>Scelbi H8
>Microkit 8/16
>Imlac PDS-1
>HP 85
>
>Thanks,
>-- John Tinker

-- 
            Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4
        Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems:
                 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757

From foo at siconic.com  Tue Oct 31 09:31:49 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: TRS80 PT210 and other finds...
In-Reply-To: <39FEC584.20088.3606FF5@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010310730400.3156-100000@siconic.com>

On Tue, 31 Oct 2000, Hans Franke wrote:

> > TRS80 PT210 terminal (original owner/manual works) $10
> 
> So, what's a PT210 ?

Portable Terminal.  It's basically like a TI Silent 700, but in a case
with the TRS-80 grey color.  You've seen mine, you just don't remember.

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com  Tue Oct 31 10:46:20 2000
From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: combined inventory of computer museums?
In-Reply-To: <39FEE5B7.32D2A533@coin.org>
Message-ID: <000a01c0435a$19b5db00$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>


> John Tinker wrote:
> Machines I am looking for:
>   Imlac PDS-1
>   HP 85


Imlacs!  Did you go to RPI?  We went from four to about
thirty of them at the 'Wozny' Lab there.  I think they
were series -X and -4's.  The older ones had neat
tabletop boot consoles, the newers may have been in a 
less standalone configuration.  We ran a package called
"Dynagraphics" on Pr1me 750's.

I could give up my spare to someone totally dedicated
to the thing, for example if they came up with a 
time effective way of repairing those rollers.

John A.

From Mzthompson at aol.com  Tue Oct 31 10:53:32 2000
From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: Q-bus cards available.
Message-ID: <6a.7fa0166.2730530c@aol.com>

A good while back I hauled home what was the control box of an 8"
floppy duplicator.  The information of the box:

Formaster Corporation
1983 Concourse Drive
San Jose, CA 95131

Model 4400

I hauled home only the control box thinking the case might come in
handy for some project.  Earlier I opened it up and found a card
cage full of what I assumed at the time was Q-bus cards.  Now with
the aid of the Field Guide maintained by Megan, I have identified
the main card as a Q-bus LSI-11/2 CPU 16-bit card.

I have no need for the cards and thought some might be of use to those
on the list.  A couple of the cards were made by Formaster, so doubt
much demand for proprietary cards, but are included anyway.

Cards 1-4 are dual height and 5-7 are quad height.

So here is the list:

----------------------------------------
1) M7270    KD11-HA    LSI-11/2 CPU 16-bit Q-bus

----------------------------------------
2) National Semicondutor Memory Systems card

Has 4 rows of 9 4116's, so 64k

Numbers on the card:
55110358-003C   980103858-001  REV L

----------------------------------------
3) Sigma Information Systems

This card appears to be a disk controller.  It has 4 WDC TR1865PL controller
chips on it and there are 4 ten pin header connectors on the card edge.

Numbers:
Assy 400200
CPX-6-0

----------------------------------------
4) Formaster Corporation

I would say this is a proprietary card.
Only meaningful number 003-30026-01

It has a 50 pin header connector and a 16 pin header connector.

----------------------------------------
5) Acorn Systems memory card

Has 8 rows of 18 4164's, so 1 mb

Numbers:
Copyright 1981
30019-01

----------------------------------------
6) Acorn Interface and ROM card

I am guessing on this one.  I say interface because has 4 50 pin
header connectors and 1 34 pin header connector.  IIRC, the 34 pin
went to the front panel control board.

It also has 4 EPROMS (24 pin) with ID stickers on them (Formaster)

----------------------------------------
7) Formaster card

I would say this is a proprietary card.
Only meaningful number 003-29978-01

It has two 50 pin header connectors.

----------------------------------------

If you would like one of these cards, then here is the game plan.

1) Send an email reserving your card(s), first come first served.

2) I will not ask any specific amount for these cards.  I will ask
that you send something to cover a little of my time and the trip to
the post office.  I'll leave the amount up to you.  Hint: Priority
Mail stamps make nice tokens.

3) All cards will be shipped by Priority Mail, one card to a box.
So send a $3.20 stamp for each card you want.  Your card will be
properly packed and mailed back to you.

4) Any cards reserved and no stamp received by October 15th will
be 'unreserved' and tossed into the recycle pile.

Mike Thompson
8470 S US Hwy 41
Terre Haute, IN 47802-5198

From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com  Tue Oct 31 11:03:36 2000
From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: combined inventory of computer museums?
In-Reply-To: <000a01c0435a$19b5db00$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c0435c$82d08610$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>


> John Tinker wrote:
> Machines I am looking for:
>   Imlac PDS-1
>   HP 85


Imlacs!  Did you go to RPI?  We went from four to about
thirty of them at the 'Wozny' Lab there.  I think they
were series -X and -4's.  The older ones had neat
tabletop boot consoles, the newers may have been in a 
less standalone configuration.  We ran a package called
"Dynagraphics" on Pr1me 750's.

Oops, revise...
I could give up my spare HP85 to someone totally 
dedicated to the thing, for example if they came up 
with a time effective way of repairing those rollers.

John A.


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Tue Oct 31 11:02:05 2000
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: TRS80 PT210 and other finds...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010310730400.3156-100000@siconic.com>
References: <39FEC584.20088.3606FF5@localhost>
Message-ID: <39FF091D.17415.4D8BCE@localhost>

> On Tue, 31 Oct 2000, Hans Franke wrote:
> > > TRS80 PT210 terminal (original owner/manual works) $10
> > So, what's a PT210 ?

> Portable Terminal.  It's basically like a TI Silent 700, but in a case
> with the TRS-80 grey color.  You've seen mine, you just don't remember.

Possible - it seams like you got way to much stuff.
As a matter of our friendship I may offer my help
and order a 40' container to help - I may even pay
the shiping cost :)

Servus
Hans

--
VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen
http://www.vintage.org/vcfe
http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

From kevskvk at inx.net  Tue Oct 31 11:30:09 2000
From: kevskvk at inx.net (kevin Skvorak)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: Timex Sinclair stuff for sale
Message-ID: <39FF01A1.197EED14@inx.net>

I was sent this adress by somone at another comp users group..I hope you
can post it or pass it on..and I hope no one is offended

I have recently found, while helping my landlady in her warehouse in
Brooklyn,  the following Timex  Sinclair stuff. It all appears to be
new, or unused,  though many of the boxes are beat up from being moved
around in a messy warehouse for years. Some of the boxes are very clean
though.

(TEN)  Timex Sinclair 1500 computers..eight of them complete in (if
rather beat up) boxes,  two out of box.  All of them  new..never used.
in original wrapping.

(TWELVE)  Timex Sinclair 1000 computers,  Mint, New in unopened boxes.

(THREE)  Timex Sinclair 2068 Computers,  new, out of box..without
accessories attached, although I have found some power supplies and
cables lying around loose.

(TWO) 16K Ram Modules  #1016   one in box, one out.

Six plastic carrying cases for the 1500's (I think..the are little
molded cases that say timex sinclair on them)

some assorted  TS software on cassette tapes, in original
wrapping..(will check titles if interested)

A whole lot of Timex 2040 printers,  Alphacon 32 printers and cases of
printer paper for both.  All mint, new in unopened boxes of twelve.

A reasonable offer...for anything

anyone interested?
thanks

Kevin Skvorak
kevskvk@inx.net












From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com  Tue Oct 31 09:52:05 2000
From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: Monitor for iSBC 8024
In-Reply-To: <002901c042ee$56fdd7e0$a2483cd1@winbook>
References: <009201c041e8$1d955d40$59779a8d@ajp166>
 <14844.40088.72034.420835@phaduka.neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001031094950.026c6dc0@208.226.86.10>

Due to a failure in filters I read:
>Single-chipper is the key term, though.  The Z80 isn't a single-chipper, nor
>is the 64180 or the Z380, or the 6502.

This statement is ambiguous at best. While you can still buy a Z80 MPU you 
can also buy both "high integration" Z80's that have peripherals etc on 
chip as well as Z80 "cores" for integration into FPGA's.

--Chuck


From jeff.kaneko at juno.com  Tue Oct 31 12:25:34 2000
From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:27 2005
Subject: Q-bus cards available.
Message-ID: <20001031.122534.-380631.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com>



On Tue, 31 Oct 2000 11:53:32 EST Mzthompson@aol.com writes:
> ----------------------------------------
> 3) Sigma Information Systems
> 
> This card appears to be a disk controller.  It has 4 WDC TR1865PL 
> controller
> chips on it and there are 4 ten pin header connectors on the card 
> edge.
> 
> Numbers:
> Assy 400200
> CPX-6-0

This is probably a serial I/O card; the TR1865's are UARTS . . . .



________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Tue Oct 31 12:35:09 2000
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: Monitor for iSBC 8024
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001031094950.026c6dc0@208.226.86.10>
References: <002901c042ee$56fdd7e0$a2483cd1@winbook>
Message-ID: <39FF1EED.7207.A2BF93@localhost>

> Due to a failure in filters I read:
> >Single-chipper is the key term, though.  The Z80 isn't a single-chipper, nor
> >is the 64180 or the Z380, or the 6502.

> This statement is ambiguous at best. While you can still buy a Z80 MPU you 
> can also buy both "high integration" Z80's that have peripherals etc on 
> chip as well as Z80 "cores" for integration into FPGA's.

And the boarder continues to fade when you go for modules
like the Rabbit 2000 (As long as the PII/III is a CPU...)

http://www.rabbitsemiconductor.com/

Gruss
H.


--
VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen
http://www.vintage.org/vcfe
http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

From jtinker at coin.org  Tue Oct 31 12:40:40 2000
From: jtinker at coin.org (John Tinker)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: Timex Sinclair stuff for sale
References: <39FF01A1.197EED14@inx.net>
Message-ID: <39FF1228.204C39FB@coin.org>

Just curious what you would take for it all? What would you estimate the
total weight of everything to be?

-- John Tinker

kevin Skvorak wrote:

> I was sent this adress by somone at another comp users group..I hope you
> can post it or pass it on..and I hope no one is offended
>
> I have recently found, while helping my landlady in her warehouse in
> Brooklyn,  the following Timex  Sinclair stuff. It all appears to be
> new, or unused,  though many of the boxes are beat up from being moved
> around in a messy warehouse for years. Some of the boxes are very clean
> though.
>
> (TEN)  Timex Sinclair 1500 computers..eight of them complete in (if
> rather beat up) boxes,  two out of box.  All of them  new..never used.
> in original wrapping.
>
> (TWELVE)  Timex Sinclair 1000 computers,  Mint, New in unopened boxes.
>
> (THREE)  Timex Sinclair 2068 Computers,  new, out of box..without
> accessories attached, although I have found some power supplies and
> cables lying around loose.
>
> (TWO) 16K Ram Modules  #1016   one in box, one out.
>
> Six plastic carrying cases for the 1500's (I think..the are little
> molded cases that say timex sinclair on them)
>
> some assorted  TS software on cassette tapes, in original
> wrapping..(will check titles if interested)
>
> A whole lot of Timex 2040 printers,  Alphacon 32 printers and cases of
> printer paper for both.  All mint, new in unopened boxes of twelve.
>
> A reasonable offer...for anything
>
> anyone interested?
> thanks
>
> Kevin Skvorak
> kevskvk@inx.net


From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Tue Oct 31 13:24:09 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: MULTICS Installation, Halifax
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB2A0@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>

Hello,

I've gotten mail from the guy who is supervising the
decommisioning of the Canadian DND Multics System at
Halifax. Not much new, but it's a little clearer in
that all someone needs to do is attend the auction
and buy it and bring it home on a truck. At least I
doubt any "schools" will bid on this, if they do,
they'd have their hands full.

-dq

----------------------------------------------------
Douglas,

I'm supervising the removal of our MULTICS system here 
in Halifax. John Macleod has indicated that you were 
interested in the details.

On 13 Nov 2000 we will load the 5 CPU system along with 
FNP's etc. onto a truck destin for Crown Assets disposal. 
Crown Assets in turn offers the equipment to school projects 
then publicly auctions it off. We were planning to cut the 
serial cables to expedite the removal of several hundred 
cables under our computer room floor.

The drives will be held locally for destruction (Security issues)
but replacments could be available from GENTRONICS.

If you have any questions let me know.


Dave Renshaw
MCOIN Support
Computer Room / NOC Supervisor
CS 02
Voice:   902 - 427-0550 X 2554 or 2540
Fax:     902 - 427-6626
E-mail:  D.Renshaw@dnd.ca


From foo at siconic.com  Tue Oct 31 12:21:55 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: combined inventory of computer museums?
In-Reply-To: <000a01c0435a$19b5db00$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010311020380.3374-100000@siconic.com>

On Tue, 31 Oct 2000, John Allain wrote:

> Imlacs!  Did you go to RPI?  We went from four to about
> thirty of them at the 'Wozny' Lab there.  I think they
> were series -X and -4's.  The older ones had neat
> tabletop boot consoles, the newers may have been in a 
> less standalone configuration.  We ran a package called
> "Dynagraphics" on Pr1me 750's.
> 
> I could give up my spare to someone totally dedicated
> to the thing, for example if they came up with a 
> time effective way of repairing those rollers.

Cool, Imlac discussion!  I've got one by way of Doug Salot.  Mine's in
poor condition but I'm hoping one day to get it restored.  I'm still
looking for documentation.  Have you got any?

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From foo at siconic.com  Tue Oct 31 12:24:10 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: TRS80 PT210 and other finds...
In-Reply-To: <39FF091D.17415.4D8BCE@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010311023000.3374-100000@siconic.com>

On Tue, 31 Oct 2000, Hans Franke wrote:

> Possible - it seams like you got way to much stuff.
> As a matter of our friendship I may offer my help
> and order a 40' container to help - I may even pay
> the shiping cost :)

Hans, bring a few containers.  You can have it all.  Come and get it.

Don't say I never did anything nice for you :)

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Oct 31 12:40:53 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: Pinout signal connector + specs for NEC JC-1216DFA monitor?
In-Reply-To: <39FE149E.A3AE035E@sprint.ca> from "Claude" at Oct 30, 0 07:38:54 pm
Message-ID: <m13qgLB-000IyHC@p850ug1>

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From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Oct 31 12:44:25 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: Old HP Stuff Available
In-Reply-To: <20001031091529.B26969@loisto.uwasa.fi> from "Jarkko Hermanni Teppo" at Oct 31, 0 09:15:29 am
Message-ID: <m13qgOb-000IyJC@p850ug1>

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From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Tue Oct 31 14:38:39 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: DG Nova 1200
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001031153839.094f8274@mailhost.intellistar.net>

  Does anyone have any info on the Data General Nova 1200?

    Joe


From rigdonj at intellistar.net  Tue Oct 31 14:46:41 2000
From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: Q-bus cards available.
In-Reply-To: <20001031.122534.-380631.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001031154641.31571f76@mailhost.intellistar.net>

   Jeff wrote.
>
>
>On Tue, 31 Oct 2000 11:53:32 EST Mzthompson@aol.com writes:
>> ----------------------------------------
>> 3) Sigma Information Systems
>> 
>> This card appears to be a disk controller.  It has 4 WDC TR1865PL 
>> controller
>> chips on it and there are 4 ten pin header connectors on the card 
>> edge.
>> 
>> Numbers:
>> Assy 400200
>> CPX-6-0
>
>This is probably a serial I/O card; the TR1865's are UARTS . . . .


Jeff is probably right. Here's part of a message that I posted a month or
so ago about a 11/23 that I have. It also has a Sigma Information Systems
card in it and the card is connected the TT and LP0 ports. I didn't make a
list of the chips while I had the card out. Sorry.

   Joe

 to On September 22, Joe wrote:
>   A couple of weeks ago I found a box in a scrap yard with a half height 8"
> floppy drive it in. The box was marked "Gen-Rad" and looked like part of a
> old piece of test equipment. I picked up the box just for the floppy drive
> and brought it home. Today I started to take it apart and found that it was
> made by Scientific Micro Systems and has a number of DEC cards in it as
> well as a Maxtor XT-1085 hard drive. My question is what is it and weather
> it's worth keeping or is it just good for parts?
> 
>   Here's the details; It's marked "Gen Rad 2295 Central Station" on the
> front. The back is marked "Scientific Micro Systems" "model MDX01170".
> It's about 9" w x 11" h x 17" deep. On the back it has eight DB-25m ports
> on the back. They're marked "TZ0" through "TZ3", "LP0" and "TT0" through
> "TT2". Inside it has a DEC M7957 quad board, a half size board made by
> Sigma Information Systems Inc (connected to the TT* and LP0 ports), a half
> size "Q RAM 11" board made by Clear Point (memory?), a DEC M 8186 half size
> card, and a half size SMS card (1002001-0001/0004220-0001) that is also
> connected via a jumper to the last card, a full quad size SMS card
> (1001939-0001/0003770-0001).  The last card has ribbon cables that connect
> to the floppy and hard drive.
> 


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Tue Oct 31 13:43:35 2000
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: TRS80 PT210 and other finds...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010311023000.3374-100000@siconic.com>
References: <39FF091D.17415.4D8BCE@localhost>
Message-ID: <39FF2EF7.18883.E166A3@localhost>

> > Possible - it seams like you got way to much stuff.
> > As a matter of our friendship I may offer my help
> > and order a 40' container to help - I may even pay
> > the shiping cost :)

> Hans, bring a few containers.  You can have it all.  Come and get it.

Deal!

I just check the flight schedule...

> Don't say I never did anything nice for you :)

Did I ?

:)
H.
BTW: Thank you Sallam.

--
VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen
http://www.vintage.org/vcfe
http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

From THETechnoid at home.com  Tue Oct 31 13:50:22 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: system/36 awefully quiet...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010311023000.3374-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <20001031194329.COZP2380.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

Repost.

Last weekend I aquired a system/36 model 5360.  Have not powered it as
yet.  The plug does not fit either of my dryer sockets but is marked
250vac, 20amp.  Is this a three-phase machine?  If so I think I am in
trouble..... ;-)

My wife told me I'm grounded.  Most of my aquisitions have been less than
200lbs.  This badboy beats that by a factor.

Any advice?  Suggestions? Information?

Regards,

Jeff

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de  Tue Oct 31 13:55:33 2000
From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: system/36 awefully quiet...
In-Reply-To: <20001031194329.COZP2380.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010311023000.3374-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <39FF31C5.12496.EC5BA1@localhost>

From:           	THETechnoid@home.com
Date sent:      	Tue, 31 Oct 2000 14:50:22 -0500
To:             	classiccmp@classiccmp.org
Subject:        	system/36 awefully quiet...
Send reply to:  	classiccmp@classiccmp.org

> Repost.
> 
> Last weekend I aquired a system/36 model 5360.  Have not powered it as
> yet.  The plug does not fit either of my dryer sockets but is marked
> 250vac, 20amp.  Is this a three-phase machine?  If so I think I am in
> trouble..... ;-)

> My wife told me I'm grounded.  Most of my aquisitions have been less than
> 200lbs.  This badboy beats that by a factor.

:))

> Any advice?  Suggestions? Information?

Well, isn't she still in warrenty ?
Your marriage wasn't that long ago.
Try to get an exchange.

SCNR

Servus
Hans

--
VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen
http://www.vintage.org/vcfe
http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Oct 31 14:33:49 2000
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: TRS80 PT210 and other finds...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010311023000.3374-100000@siconic.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010311231030.17582-100000@lanshark.lanminds.com>

> On Tue, 31 Oct 2000, Hans Franke wrote:
> > Possible - it seams like you got way to much stuff.
> > As a matter of our friendship I may offer my help
> > and order a 40' container to help - I may even pay
> > the shiping cost :)

On Tue, 31 Oct 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote:
> Hans, bring a few containers.  You can have it all.  Come and get it.
> Don't say I never did anything nice for you :)

In the interest of international relations, we'll ALL help fill Hans'
containerS.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred        cisin@xenosoft.com

Sam,
I still have 4 boxes for you.


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Oct 31 14:44:18 2000
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: system/36 awefully quiet...
In-Reply-To: system/36 awefully quiet... (THETechnoid@home.com)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010311023000.3374-100000@siconic.com>
	<20001031194329.COZP2380.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>
Message-ID: <14847.12066.859021.906612@phaduka.neurotica.com>

On October 31, THETechnoid@home.com wrote:
> Last weekend I aquired a system/36 model 5360.  Have not powered it as
> yet.  The plug does not fit either of my dryer sockets but is marked
> 250vac, 20amp.  Is this a three-phase machine?  If so I think I am in
> trouble..... ;-)

  Does the plug have three prongs or four?


            -Dave McGuire

From enrico.badella at softstar.it  Tue Oct 31 14:49:35 2000
From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: MULTICS Installation, Halifax
References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB2A0@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>
Message-ID: <39FF305F.757B425D@softstar.it>



Douglas Quebbeman wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I've gotten mail from the guy who is supervising the
> decommisioning of the Canadian DND Multics System at
> Halifax. Not much new, but it's a little clearer in
> that all someone needs to do is attend the auction
> and buy it and bring it home on a truck. At least I
> doubt any "schools" will bid on this, if they do,
> they'd have their hands full.

I would sell my MSFT stock for this system 8-) however it is no clear, 
at least not to me, if you will get also the tapes and some bootable
disks in order to run the whole system or you will end up with just 
a bunch of GE hardware.

If onybody is considering the saving I will support it if I will get
an eternal account ......

e.

========================================================================
Enrico Badella                       email:   enrico.badella@softstar.it
Soft*Star srl                                 eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it
InterNetworking Specialists          tel:     +39-011-746092            
Via Camburzano 9                     fax:     +39-011-746487
10143 Torino, Italy

  Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software,
  manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals
==========================================================================

From at258 at osfn.org  Tue Oct 31 14:48:09 2000
From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: system/36 awefully quiet...
In-Reply-To: <14847.12066.859021.906612@phaduka.neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.1001031154751.13688A-100000@osfn.org>

I just checked ours - it's 3 prong.

On Tue, 31 Oct 2000, Dave McGuire wrote:

> On October 31, THETechnoid@home.com wrote:
> > Last weekend I aquired a system/36 model 5360.  Have not powered it as
> > yet.  The plug does not fit either of my dryer sockets but is marked
> > 250vac, 20amp.  Is this a three-phase machine?  If so I think I am in
> > trouble..... ;-)
> 
>   Does the plug have three prongs or four?
> 
> 
>             -Dave McGuire
> 

M. K. Peirce
Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc.
215 Shady Lea Road,
North Kingstown, RI 02852

"Casta est qui nemo rogavit."
              
              - Ovid


From THETechnoid at home.com  Tue Oct 31 15:17:13 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: system/36 awefully quiet...
In-Reply-To: <39FF31C5.12496.EC5BA1@localhost>
Message-ID: <20001031210902.FTTC2380.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

Chrissy is great.  She was joking about the 'grounded' thing.  It IS by
far the biggest thing I've brought home.  I think a PUPPY might have been
a better choice.  Maybe I should.....



In <39FF31C5.12496.EC5BA1@localhost>, on 10/31/00 
   at 04:17 PM, "Hans Franke" <Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de> said:

>> My wife told me I'm grounded.  Most of my aquisitions have been less than
>> 200lbs.  This badboy beats that by a factor.

>:))

>> Any advice?  Suggestions? Information?

>Well, isn't she still in warrenty ?
>Your marriage wasn't that long ago.
>Try to get an exchange.

>SCNR

>Servus
>Hans

>--
>VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen
>http://www.vintage.org/vcfe
>http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From THETechnoid at home.com  Tue Oct 31 15:18:42 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: DG Nova 1200
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001031153839.094f8274@mailhost.intellistar.net>
Message-ID: <20001031211116.FVYP2380.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

Ask Cris Kennedy (chris@mainecoon.com) for help. He is the Nova hacker on
the list.  I've got MV info if you get one of those.



In <3.0.1.16.20001031153839.094f8274@mailhost.intellistar.net>, on
10/31/00 
   at 04:18 PM, Joe <rigdonj@intellistar.net> said:

>  Does anyone have any info on the Data General Nova 1200?

>    Joe


-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com  Tue Oct 31 15:20:54 2000
From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: MULTICS Installation, Halifax
Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB2A9@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>


> Douglas Quebbeman wrote:
> > 
> > Hello,
> > 
> > I've gotten mail from the guy who is supervising the
> > decommisioning of the Canadian DND Multics System at
> > Halifax. Not much new, but it's a little clearer in
> > that all someone needs to do is attend the auction
> > and buy it and bring it home on a truck. At least I
> > doubt any "schools" will bid on this, if they do,
> > they'd have their hands full.
> 
> I would sell my MSFT stock for this system 8-) however it is no clear, 
> at least not to me, if you will get also the tapes and some bootable
> disks in order to run the whole system or you will end up with just 
> a bunch of GE hardware.

You would not be ending up with GE hardware. While the 
Level 68 (6180) system Honeywell built carried over some
features from the GE635/645, it had quite a bit of new
stuff that wasn't in the  645. For example, rings were
implemented in software in the GE645 version of Multics.
The Honeywell 6180 put them in hardware.

Additionally, this is not a Honeywell 6180 being offered,
but a DPS-8/M.

If you contact Mr. Renshaw, he may be able to answer
the question about a set of coldstart tapes for the
machine. If not, Perigon Systems (the "last" Multics)
would be able to supply them. The trick is, for how much?

regards,
-dq


 

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Oct 31 15:24:36 2000
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft))
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: system/36 awefully quiet...
In-Reply-To: <20001031210902.FTTC2380.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0010311324031.17582-100000@lanshark.lanminds.com>

> My wife told me I'm grounded. 

What a nice compliment!


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Oct 31 15:36:43 2000
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: system/36 awefully quiet...
In-Reply-To: <20001031194329.COZP2380.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> from "THETechnoid@home.com" at Oct 31, 0 02:50:22 pm
Message-ID: <m13qj5K-000IyHC@p850ug1>

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From THETechnoid at home.com  Tue Oct 31 15:54:49 2000
From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: system/36 awefully quiet...
In-Reply-To: <m13qj5K-000IyHC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <20001031214626.HDLG2380.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>

I'll wear rubber shoes whilst grounded....  Hadn't thought of that pun and
I'm usually pretty quick with em'.  Touche!

In <m13qj5K-000IyHC@p850ug1>, on 10/31/00 
   at 04:54 PM, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) said:

>> My wife told me I'm grounded.  Most of my aquisitions have been less than

>I'd be carefully. Working on HV systems (even just mains) when grounded 
>is a bad idea. You can easily get a fatal shock...

>(:-) for the humour-impaired)

>-tony


-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey S. Worley
President
Complete Computer Services, Inc.
30 Greenwood Rd.
Asheville, NC 28803
828-277-5959
Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com
THETechnoid@home.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


From foo at siconic.com  Tue Oct 31 14:48:59 2000
From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: MULTICS Installation, Halifax
In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB2A9@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010311245220.3732-100000@siconic.com>

On Tue, 31 Oct 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote:

> Additionally, this is not a Honeywell 6180 being offered,
> but a DPS-8/M.

I wonder if my DPS-6 could run Multics?  I would like to think it has to
have some coolness factor other than being big and impressive :)

http://www.siconic.com/computers/dps6half.jpg
http://www.siconic.com/computers/dps6tall.jpg
http://www.siconic.com/computers/dpsgroup.jpg

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org


From Mzthompson at aol.com  Tue Oct 31 16:01:52 2000
From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: Q-bus cards available.
Message-ID: <bd.85a76db.27309b50@aol.com>

On Tue, 31 Oct 2000 15:46:41, Joe <rigdonj@intellistar.net> wrote:

>On Tue, 31 Oct 2000 12:25:34, Jeffrey l Kaneko <jeff.kaneko@juno.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 31 Oct 2000 11:53:32 EST Mzthompson@aol.com writes:
>>
>>> ----------------------------------------
>>> 3) Sigma Information Systems
>>> 
>>> This card appears to be a disk controller.  It has 4 WDC TR1865PL 
>>> controller
>>> chips on it and there are 4 ten pin header connectors on the card 
>>> edge.
>>> 
>>> Numbers:
>>> Assy 400200
>>> CPX-6-0
>>
>>This is probably a serial I/O card; the TR1865's are UARTS . . . .
>
>
>Jeff is probably right. Here's part of a message that I posted a month or
>so ago about a 11/23 that I have. It also has a Sigma Information Systems
>card in it and the card is connected the TT and LP0 ports. I didn't make a
>list of the chips while I had the card out. Sorry.
>
>   Joe
>
> to On September 22, Joe wrote:
>
> <snip>

Thanks guys for the correction.  In my haste to complete the list I saw
'WDC' and jump to the conclusion about being a disk controller.  I did
not pause to look up the IC in the IC Master or any data books. Duh!

Although I removed the card cage and boards from the box, I did go
check and sure enough, the only ten pin connector goes to a DB25
coming out the back.

Again, thanks, and sorry 'bout that.

Mike

From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Oct 31 16:36:08 2000
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: system/36 awefully quiet...
In-Reply-To: Re: system/36 awefully quiet... (Merle K. Peirce)
References: <14847.12066.859021.906612@phaduka.neurotica.com>
	<Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.1001031154751.13688A-100000@osfn.org>
Message-ID: <14847.18776.388737.86757@phaduka.neurotica.com>


  Sounds like 220v 2-phase.  Two hots and one neutral/ground.  If its
marked 20A, I believe the connector is probably an L6-20 twist-lok.
Not difficult to wire up in most US homes.

  My computer room is running from two APC Matrix 5000 5kva UPSs,
which have 220v inputs and 110/220v outputs.  I ran two 30A 220V
(L6-30 twist-lok) circuits from the two outer poles on my breaker
panel to power the UPSs, and everything (be it 110v like the regular
Alphas/Suns/SGIs and such or 220v for the Crays) runs from the UPSs.

  Having the equipment run from dedicated 220v 2-pole breakers is
very, very nice.  Definitely worth the trouble.

       -Dave McGuire

On October 31, Merle K. Peirce wrote:
> I just checked ours - it's 3 prong.
> 
> On Tue, 31 Oct 2000, Dave McGuire wrote:
> 
> > On October 31, THETechnoid@home.com wrote:
> > > Last weekend I aquired a system/36 model 5360.  Have not powered it as
> > > yet.  The plug does not fit either of my dryer sockets but is marked
> > > 250vac, 20amp.  Is this a three-phase machine?  If so I think I am in
> > > trouble..... ;-)
> > 
> >   Does the plug have three prongs or four?
> > 
> > 
> >             -Dave McGuire
> > 
> 
> M. K. Peirce
> Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc.
> 215 Shady Lea Road,
> North Kingstown, RI 02852
> 
> "Casta est qui nemo rogavit."
>               
>               - Ovid

From healyzh at aracnet.com  Tue Oct 31 16:39:54 2000
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: MULTICS Installation, Halifax
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010311245220.3732-100000@siconic.com> from "Sellam Ismail" at Oct 31, 2000 12:48:59 PM
Message-ID: <200010312239.OAA19261@shell1.aracnet.com>

Sellam Ismail wrote:
> I wonder if my DPS-6 could run Multics?  I would like to think it has to
> have some coolness factor other than being big and impressive :)

Having worked on both (although in the case of the DPS-6 only briefly) I'm
fairly sure that they're not.  For one thing IIRC, GCOS-6 and GCOS-8 were at
least somewhat different.

What someone really needs to do is write a freeware emulator for the DPS-8. 
I know at least one commercial DPS-6 emulator exists.  And, no, I'm not
about to tackle writing one.

Personally I think the DPS-6 is a bit boring, but a multiprocessor DPS-8
configuration is a really cool piece of hardware!

			Zane



From whdawson at mlynk.com  Tue Oct 31 17:31:15 2000
From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: Free Epson JX-80 Color Printer & Summagraphics graphics tablet for Z100 in Ann Arbor, MI
Message-ID: <000501c04392$a996ea60$ce9e72d1@cobweb.net>

These are free for the cost of shipping from Ann Arbor, MI.  Please
contact me off list if interested, and I'll supply the owners email
address.

Bill

?
Your computer will do far more than you ever expected it to,
and that won't be enough.

                         Pournelle's First Law

Dear Bill,

Way back in February you put in a bid on my Z100.  As
you no doubt surmised, you were outbid and the Z100
went to a collector out in California.  For your
information, the winning bid was $350 and that was just
for the computer and monitor.

Looking over my basement recently I came across the two
other items that were part of my Z100 setup, namely the
JX-80 printer and the Summagraphics graphics tablet.
These are boxed up in their original cartons, complete
with documentation and ready to ship.

You didn't get my Z100, but I thought you might want
these other beautiful vintage items, still in good
working order.  You can have them for the cost of UPS
shipment. The JX-80, boxed up, weighs about 25 lb. The
tablet, boxed up, weighs about 10 lb. I'm in Ann Arbor,
Michigan, which is about a 5 hour drive from
Washington, PA. (Shipping should be less than $20).

If you ever get your hands on a working Z100 I'd be
glad to send you my Blokpix software at no charge.

I quote here below the text of the description I sent
out to you about this equipment.

------------------------------------------------------

Additional hardware supported by Blokpix is a
Summagraphics graphics tablet with a 2-button stylus
and a 4-button cursor. Attaches to the serial port. The
active surface of the tablet is 12" x 12".  Also an
Epson JX-80 color dot matrix printer, which we used to
print out our designs.  Attaches to the parallel port.
I still have a few unused 4-color ribbons for this
printer, but they may well be dried out by now.  Such
ribbons can be reinked.  There are a couple of places
that do this kind of reinking.  Epson no longer makes
the ribbons, but you can still get black ribbons that
work on it.  These are for MX-80 or FX-80 machines.
I'll be glad to throw in a handsome custom-designed
lucite printer stand.  This is a good workhorse 9-pin
printer, still working fine.

The most interesting software is that which I wrote
myself. I have a graphics program called Blokpix that
my wife and I used for years to design repeating
designs for the fabric, apparel and wallpaper
industries.  You can have this.  I even wrote a manual
for it.  I also wrote a demo program that displays
graphic designs until you stop it.  It can be
controlled by writing a script.  You can have this
program along with the script I wrote for showing off
our designs at trade shows.  This makes a nice display.

------------------------------------------------------

If you want the lucite stand, that will have to go in a
separate box.  It would add another dollar or two to
the shipping cost.

Bill, please let me know soon if you would like these
items.  If not, they will go to the local recycling
center where they will be cannibalized for valuable
metals.  At least they will not go into the landfill.
But I'd much rather see their working lives extended by
a caring collector like you.

Bob


From foxvideo at wincom.net  Tue Oct 31 15:48:20 2000
From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: Pinout signal connector + specs for NEC JC-1216DFA monitor?
In-Reply-To: <m13qgLB-000IyHC@p850ug1>
References: <39FE149E.A3AE035E@sprint.ca>
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20001031163927.009e2cf0@mail.wincom.net>


>         The old eight pin video cable pin outs were:

         1-Audio in,     2- Video in,    3- Grd.  4- Video out,  5, 6. 7, Grd.
         8- Audio out.

         Looking at the female connector,  pin 1 is at the top left, pin 5 
at the top right, then the gap in spacing.    I hope this helps.


                                 Charlie Fox
                         Chas E. Fox Video Productions
                         793 Argyle Rd. Windsor ON N8Y 3J8
                                 foxvideo@wincom.net
                                 Check out:
         The Old Walkerville Virtual Museum at http://skyboom.com/foxvideo
                 and Camcorder Kindergarten at http://chasfoxvideo.com   


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Tue Oct 31 20:27:49 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: Monitor for iSBC 8024
Message-ID: <003501c043ac$e61b5240$2f799a8d@ajp166>

From: Richard Erlacher <richard@idcomm.com>


>Single-chipper is the key term, though.  The Z80 isn't a single-chipper,
nor
>is the 64180 or the Z380, or the 6502.  The fact that the parts count is
>greater than it would be with a comparably capable MCU is what's made
this


Z80 is available as a library core for fully embedded systems.  In that
case
it's very true to the single chip idea.  Not unlike some of the 6800,
6502
designs.

Allison


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Tue Oct 31 20:26:15 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: CP/M 1.3 memory requirement
Message-ID: <003401c043ac$e5021a10$2f799a8d@ajp166>

From: Jeff Hellige <jhellige@earthlink.net>
> CP/M On North Star Disk
> Copyright 1977 Digital Research
> Copyright 1977 Lifeboat Associates
> Version 1.30    Serial No. 14-040
>
> Jeff


Thats a find.  I'd assume it want 4k more than base 1.3 due to the NS*
drivers
and the way Lifeboat did it.  so 20k should do and with say 48k your
covered.

Allison





From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Tue Oct 31 20:39:04 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: combined inventory of computer museums?
Message-ID: <009501c043af$04d17eb0$2f799a8d@ajp166>

From: Jeff Hellige <jhellige@earthlink.net>


>For the less-common machines it might be interesting to keep a kind
>of database or registry.  It's something that other hobbies do.  It'd
>be quite a task though!



A good thought.

On the same note my wish list periodically posted.


 IMP-48 manuals (IMSAI 8048 based SBC)
 Cincinatti Millicron 2xxx (2000, 2100 or 2200 series) Anything! It's a
16bitter
    1972 from memory.

Allison


From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Tue Oct 31 20:41:03 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: Q-bus cards available.
Message-ID: <009601c043af$055ca7b0$2f799a8d@ajp166>


-----Original Message-----
From: Jeffrey l Kaneko <jeff.kaneko@juno.com>

>
>
>On Tue, 31 Oct 2000 11:53:32 EST Mzthompson@aol.com writes:
>> ----------------------------------------
>> 3) Sigma Information Systems
>>
>> This card appears to be a disk controller.  It has 4 WDC TR1865PL
>> controller
>> chips on it and there are 4 ten pin header connectors on the card
>> edge.
>>
>> Numbers:
>> Assy 400200
>> CPX-6-0
>
>This is probably a serial I/O card; the TR1865's are UARTS . . . .


Its one of three third party designs for a DLV11 using same
connectors/cables.

Allison


From claudew at sprint.ca  Tue Oct 31 21:07:09 2000
From: claudew at sprint.ca (Claude.W)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: Using Toshiba XM3301B scsi cdrom on old MACs...help?
Message-ID: <000701c043b0$d3c3bf20$2b00a8c0@Gamer_Claude.HOME>

Hi

Bought several XM3301B Toshiba CDROM drives very cheap.
(I am looking for some caddys by the way...anybody got some they wanna throw out?)

Trying to use these on old compact MACs and MAC IIs using Mac OS 7.5.5

Used a driver that sees cdrom drive (icon with scsi id for drive appears on os startup) as soon as iso9660 format cd is inserted, it reports that it cant read the disk, it reports the size of the data used up on disk and asks if I wanna format it or eject it...

All support files are in the extensions folder (high sierra, foreign files acces...etc...)

I am using a driver that says it supports the xm3301 is the readme file. (something from lacie company...off a www page with older MAC drivers.)

I have tried apple generic cdrom support. Does not see the xm3301b. (whats the b for anyways?)

I have used a newer Pionner scsi cdrom with pionner driver on the same system with success.

The newer pionner drive with same driver/support file does same thing....

This must be something simple I cant see...but I am no MAC OS expert...

Thanks for reading
Claude


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From jhellige at earthlink.net  Tue Oct 31 21:06:48 2000
From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: CP/M 1.3 memory requirement
In-Reply-To: <003401c043ac$e5021a10$2f799a8d@ajp166>
References: <003401c043ac$e5021a10$2f799a8d@ajp166>
Message-ID: <a05001901b625389ddd9d@[168.191.216.137]>

	I show that DR copyrighted CP/M in May, 1976.  Around what 
time did they actually start shipping it and what was the first 
'usable' release?

	Jeff

>From: Jeff Hellige <jhellige@earthlink.net>
>>  CP/M On North Star Disk
>>  Copyright 1977 Digital Research
>>  Copyright 1977 Lifeboat Associates
>>  Version 1.30    Serial No. 14-040
>>
>>  Jeff
>
>
>Thats a find.  I'd assume it want 4k more than base 1.3 due to the NS*
>drivers
>and the way Lifeboat did it.  so 20k should do and with say 48k your
>covered.
>
>Allison

-- 
            Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4
        Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems:
                 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757

From jhellige at earthlink.net  Tue Oct 31 21:21:44 2000
From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: Using Toshiba XM3301B scsi cdrom on old MACs...help?
In-Reply-To: <000701c043b0$d3c3bf20$2b00a8c0@Gamer_Claude.HOME>
References: <000701c043b0$d3c3bf20$2b00a8c0@Gamer_Claude.HOME>
Message-ID: <a05001902b6253c18afb5@[168.191.216.137]>

Hi Claude,

	Do you know if any CD-ROM is being recognized by the system, 
including Mac?  Try downloading an extension called 'Joliet Volume 
Access' from the below URL.  It adds quite a bit of functionality 
over Apple's ISO9660 support and may solve your problem.  It works 
under System 7.5 reportedly.

	http://www.tempel.org/joliet/

	Hope this helps.
	Jeff

>Hi
>
>Bought several XM3301B Toshiba CDROM drives very cheap.
>(I am looking for some caddys by the way...anybody got some they 
>wanna throw out?)
>
>Trying to use these on old compact MACs and MAC IIs using Mac OS 7.5.5
>
>Used a driver that sees cdrom drive (icon with scsi id for drive 
>appears on os startup) as soon as iso9660 format cd is inserted, it 
>reports that it cant read the disk, it reports the size of the data 
>used up on disk and asks if I wanna format it or eject it...
>
>All support files are in the extensions folder (high sierra, foreign 
>files acces...etc...)
>
>I am using a driver that says it supports the xm3301 is the readme 
>file. (something from lacie company...off a www page with older MAC 
>drivers.)
>
>I have tried apple generic cdrom support. Does not see the xm3301b. 
>(whats the b for anyways?)
>
>I have used a newer Pionner scsi cdrom with pionner driver on the 
>same system with success.
>
>The newer pionner drive with same driver/support file does same thing....
>
>This must be something simple I cant see...but I am no MAC OS expert...
>
>Thanks for reading
>Claude
>
>

-- 
            Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4
        Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems:
                 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757
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From jrasite at eoni.com  Tue Oct 31 21:29:46 2000
From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: system/36 awefully quiet...
References: <14847.12066.859021.906612@phaduka.neurotica.com>
		<Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.1001031154751.13688A-100000@osfn.org> <14847.18776.388737.86757@phaduka.neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <39FF8E25.EA898777@eoni.com>

Fairly simple to determine...

Take the cover off and see how the power cord terminates.  If one wire
goes to the frame, it's LIKELY 220/240 single phase. (that's what you
have at home... Runs your stove, water heater, dryer.) There may also
be labeling inside telling the power requirements. Three phase power
for an office machine is most uncommon.  (And the System 36 WAS an
office machine!)  Easiest way to find out is plug it in!

But then again, we ARE talking about a System 36.  Just might be steam
powered! ;o)

Jim Arnott
Industrial Electrician



Dave McGuire wrote:
> 
>   Sounds like 220v 2-phase.  Two hots and one neutral/ground.  If its
> marked 20A, I believe the connector is probably an L6-20 twist-lok.
> Not difficult to wire up in most US homes.
> 
>   My computer room is running from two APC Matrix 5000 5kva UPSs,
> which have 220v inputs and 110/220v outputs.  I ran two 30A 220V
> (L6-30 twist-lok) circuits from the two outer poles on my breaker
> panel to power the UPSs, and everything (be it 110v like the regular
> Alphas/Suns/SGIs and such or 220v for the Crays) runs from the UPSs.
> 
>   Having the equipment run from dedicated 220v 2-pole breakers is
> very, very nice.  Definitely worth the trouble.
> 
>        -Dave McGuire
> 
> On October 31, Merle K. Peirce wrote:
> > I just checked ours - it's 3 prong.
> >
> > On Tue, 31 Oct 2000, Dave McGuire wrote:
> >
> > > On October 31, THETechnoid@home.com wrote:
> > > > Last weekend I aquired a system/36 model 5360.  Have not powered it as
> > > > yet.  The plug does not fit either of my dryer sockets but is marked
> > > > 250vac, 20amp.  Is this a three-phase machine?  If so I think I am in
> > > > trouble..... ;-)
> > >
> > >   Does the plug have three prongs or four?
> > >
> > >
> > >             -Dave McGuire
> > >
> >
> > M. K. Peirce
> > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc.
> > 215 Shady Lea Road,
> > North Kingstown, RI 02852
> >
> > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit."
> >
> >               - Ovid

From rdd at smart.net  Tue Oct 31 21:54:35 2000
From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: DPS-6 and Ultimate OS (was: MULTICS...) 
In-Reply-To: <200010312239.OAA19261@shell1.aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10010312235520.21087-100000@smarty.smart.net>


Sellam Ismail wrote:
> I wonder if my DPS-6 could run Multics?  I would like to think it has to
> have some coolness factor other than being big and impressive :)

Sellam, what OS are you running on your DPS-6?  About a decade ago
(that long ago already?), there was a DPS-6 sharing a computer room
with a VAX-4000 (which had been a MicroVAX 3xxx before they upgraded
the CPU, removed the MicroVAX 3xxx insignia and glued on the VAX 4000
insigna) where I worked.  The OS running on that DPS-6 was the
Ultimate OS (based on the Pick OS, iirc) and ran applications written
in BASIC.

Somewhere, I've got a stack of documentation pertaining to the
software that ran on the DPS-6.  Funny thing, what I remember most
fondly about that system was the sound made by the CDC 9" (I think)
hard drive in an external cabinet.  The DPS-6 system itself was a
large, double 19" rack, that was more empty space than utilized space;
one rack contained the open-reel magtape drive, the other contained
the card-cage and 5-1/4" floppy drive.  A person could, literally,
have opened up one of the back doors of the cabinets and climbed
inside.

--
Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of
All Rights Reserved            Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to
rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like
http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd   a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD 





From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net  Tue Oct 31 22:03:37 2000
From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: CP/M 1.3 memory requirement
Message-ID: <00c201c043b9$95d467b0$2f799a8d@ajp166>


-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Hellige <jhellige@earthlink.net>
To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org <classiccmp@classiccmp.org>
Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 10:24 PM
Subject: Re: CP/M 1.3 memory requirement


> I show that DR copyrighted CP/M in May, 1976.  Around what 
>time did they actually start shipping it and what was the first 
>'usable' release?
>
> Jeff


There was 1.2 but usable is not what I'd call it.  I'd say 1.4
was the first commercially viable version but, 1.3 was the 
first complete working one.

Allison


From rws at enteract.com  Tue Oct 31 22:05:18 2000
From: rws at enteract.com (Richard W. Schauer)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: system/36 awefully quiet...
In-Reply-To: <39FF8E25.EA898777@eoni.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0010312149010.76513-100000@shell-1.enteract.com>

On Tue, 31 Oct 2000, Jim Arnott wrote:

> goes to the frame, it's LIKELY 220/240 single phase. (that's what you

> But then again, we ARE talking about a System 36.  Just might be steam
> powered! ;o)

Why is everyone so down on the S/36?  It's a great machine that kept many
a business running for years.  

The 5360, as well as the 5340 (S/34), are 220 volt single phase (actually
2-phase if you want to be exact).  The way I hook mine up is to open the
power plug and take the wires off.  You'll find a red, a black, and a
green.  Green is ground the world around, and red and black get 220 volts
applied between them.  In your house you probably have 110-volt branches
that are on "opposite" sides of the line.  In other words, they have 110
volts between either hot and neutral, but 220 volts between the two hots.  
Find yourself a suitable 220 volt outlet and do whatever you need to get
it hooked up, either hardwire like I do or get an outlet.  The current
draw is about 6 or so amps (I think the label rates it for 8).

BTW the terminals, most (all?) of the printers, and most (all?) of the
tape drives take 110.  The printers get fed on a different type of plug
(115V 30A locking as I recall) but it's still 110v.

Richard Schauer
rws@enteract.com



From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu  Tue Oct 31 22:44:12 2000
From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: CP/M 1.3 memory requirement
In-Reply-To: <a05001901b625389ddd9d@[168.191.216.137]> from Jeff Hellige at "Oct 31, 0 10:06:48 pm"
Message-ID: <200011010444.UAA10154@stockholm.ptloma.edu>

> 	I show that DR copyrighted CP/M in May, 1976.  Around what
> time did they actually start shipping it and what was the first 
> 'usable' release?

You call CP/M useable? >;-)

(very fond of CP/M 3.0+ on the Commodore 128,)
--
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
 Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu
-- Time makes more converts than reason. -- Thomas Payne ----------------------

From jrasite at eoni.com  Tue Oct 31 22:52:43 2000
From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: system/36 awefully quiet...
References: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0010312149010.76513-100000@shell-1.enteract.com>
Message-ID: <39FFA196.EF0980C@eoni.com>

Richard,

Please don't mis-read me! I'm not down on the S/36 at all.  Excellent
machine designed for running a mid-sized office.  20-40 employees. Had
one offered to me in '87.  Had no need/desire and so it went to the
recycler.  In 1987, it was essentially worthless.  

Jim

"Richard W. Schauer" wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 31 Oct 2000, Jim Arnott wrote:
> >
> > But then again, we ARE talking about a System 36.  Just might be steam
> > powered! ;o)
> 
> Why is everyone so down on the S/36?  It's a great machine that kept many
> a business running for years.
>

From donm at cts.com  Tue Oct 31 23:08:26 2000
From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: system/36 awefully quiet...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0010312149010.76513-100000@shell-1.enteract.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SCO.4.20.0010312106530.5541-100000@crash.cts.com>



On Tue, 31 Oct 2000, Richard W. Schauer wrote:

> On Tue, 31 Oct 2000, Jim Arnott wrote:
> 
> > goes to the frame, it's LIKELY 220/240 single phase. (that's what you
> 
> > But then again, we ARE talking about a System 36.  Just might be steam
> > powered! ;o)
> 
> Why is everyone so down on the S/36?  It's a great machine that kept many
> a business running for years.  
> 
> The 5360, as well as the 5340 (S/34), are 220 volt single phase (actually
> 2-phase if you want to be exact).  The way I hook mine up is to open the

Oh?  What is the phase shift between the "2-phase"s?  Isn't it really
just 220 volt center tapped?
						 - don

> power plug and take the wires off.  You'll find a red, a black, and a
> green.  Green is ground the world around, and red and black get 220 volts
> applied between them.  In your house you probably have 110-volt branches
> that are on "opposite" sides of the line.  In other words, they have 110
> volts between either hot and neutral, but 220 volts between the two hots.  
> Find yourself a suitable 220 volt outlet and do whatever you need to get
> it hooked up, either hardwire like I do or get an outlet.  The current
> draw is about 6 or so amps (I think the label rates it for 8).
> 
> BTW the terminals, most (all?) of the printers, and most (all?) of the
> tape drives take 110.  The printers get fed on a different type of plug
> (115V 30A locking as I recall) but it's still 110v.
> 
> Richard Schauer
> rws@enteract.com
> 
> 
> 


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Oct 31 23:44:09 2000
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005
Subject: system/36 awefully quiet...
In-Reply-To: Re: system/36 awefully quiet... (Don Maslin)
References: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0010312149010.76513-100000@shell-1.enteract.com>
	<Pine.SCO.4.20.0010312106530.5541-100000@crash.cts.com>
Message-ID: <14847.44457.526813.811434@phaduka.neurotica.com>

On October 31, Don Maslin wrote:
> > The 5360, as well as the 5340 (S/34), are 220 volt single phase (actually
> > 2-phase if you want to be exact).  The way I hook mine up is to open the
> 
> Oh?  What is the phase shift between the "2-phase"s?  Isn't it really
> just 220 volt center tapped?

  180 degrees, if your feed is 220v 2-phase.  If you have 3-phase power,
you'll likely be feeding a breaker box from two of the three phases,
which would then be 120 degrees apart.  That would, I believe,
technically be 208v, not 220v.

  It wouldn't really be 220v center-tapped, though, at least not the
way I'm used to thinking about it.

          -Dave McGuire



From broekh at interchange.ubc.ca  Sun Oct 29 11:48:21 2000
From: broekh at interchange.ubc.ca (Henry Broekhuyse)
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:30 2005
Subject: DSQD floppy drives needed for KAYPRO II with Advent Turbo Rom
In-Reply-To: <000101c041c8$9ad21de0$f09e72d1@cobweb.net>
Message-ID: <000501c041d0$6dce1800$6401a8c0@thinkpad>

The Tandon 101-4 is available for $9.00 at
http://www.cadigital.com/flopdriv.htm.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org
> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Bill Dawson
> Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2000 8:52 AM
> To: Classiccmp@Classiccmp. Org
> Subject: DSQD floppy drives needed for KAYPRO II with Advent Turbo Rom
>
>
> Anyone on the list have one or two DSQD (DD,96TPI) they can spare at a
> reasonable cost?
>
> I have a Kaypro II with the Advent Turbo Rom and would like to take
> advantage of its capabilities.


From bogus@does.not.exist.com  Sun Oct 15 22:17:55 2000
From: bogus@does.not.exist.com ()
Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:44 2005
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <mailman.27.1109552324.8069.cctalk@classiccmp.org>

We have the following system available for best offer, all-or-none:

> Professional 350 in floor stand
> amber monochrome display
> keyboard
> 512KB RAM
> extended video card
> 30MB hard drive
> full hardware manual set
> floppy-based hardware diagnostics
> latest issued P/OS operating system (RSX-11M derived)
> latest issued BASIC-PLUS-2 compiler for P/OS
> full "Toolkit" programming manuals (11 large binders)
> original floppy disks related to above
> third-party hard disk defragmenter
> also RT-11 operating system configured to run from two floppies
> (no RT-11 manuals available)
> lots of DEC-specific 5.25-inch floppy disks for scratch use

pick up in Appleton WI or limited delivery available in the
Appleton<->Madison route.  Note that the documentation set is fairly
space-consumptive (5 boxes)

email for details or to make an offer

gregory trimper
VIIka
--