From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Apr 1 07:44:51 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:29 2005 Subject: IC ID help needed Message-ID: <000401bf9be0$750c1950$7964c0d0@ajp166> 9102=2102 sram. It's just another number for the same thing. 74C92x is TI and you need to find a TI or maybe motorola CMOS databook CA1980ish. Allison From: Ethan Dicks >AMD 91L02 - I know it's some kind of SRAM but not the size or pinout. The 9101 >is 256x4. This one is likely to be either 1024x1 or 1024x4 but I don't know >which. > >NS 74C921 - The 74C922 and 74C923 are somewhat common keyboard encoders, one >of which was used on the Netronics Elf-II design. I can't find any info on >the pinout of the 74C921, but I did find several places selling them from >$6 USD to 72 Danish Kroner (however much that is) > >I have a few of each, along with 2Kb of 21L02 chips (-2L and -4L speeds, >whatever they are), all with 1979 - 1983 date codes. > >Any clues? > >Thanks, > >-ethan > > >===== >Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to >vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com > >The original webpage address is still going away. The >permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ > >See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com > From transit at lerctr.org Sat Apr 1 08:34:23 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:30 2005 Subject: Computer dumping ban in Mass In-Reply-To: <000401bf9be0$750c1950$7964c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: http://live.altavista.com/scripts/editorial.dll?efi=980&ern=y&ei=1652957 (this prohibits people, yes, individuals as well as organizations, from simply tossing out computers and CRT's in the trash...instead they must be sent to recycling centers) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Charles P. Hobbs transit@lerctr.org From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Apr 1 11:09:55 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:30 2005 Subject: PROMs offered: Should I take? Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000401090955.0093cc00@mail.bluefeathertech.com> I've been offered a cheap price on a tubeful of Signetics 82S123 bipolar PROMs. If memory serves (pun intended), these were used as boot ROMs for various PDP-11's of the UniBus persuasion. Is this so? If so, are they also useful for other classic apps? I'm considering picking them up, but don't know for sure whether I'd be wasting $10 or not... Thanks in advance. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 1 11:48:36 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:30 2005 Subject: Acorn A4 website? In-Reply-To: <20000401000254.63957.qmail@hotmail.com> from "David Vohs" at Apr 1, 0 00:02:54 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 431 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000401/0d131c8a/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Apr 1 11:54:19 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:30 2005 Subject: PROMs offered: Should I take? Message-ID: <000401bf9c03$4ec45d70$7564c0d0@ajp166> Well, 82s123 are proms, they are used in a lot of places however are they programmed or not? If they are you get whats in them. If not, you need a way to blast them. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Lane To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, April 01, 2000 12:21 PM Subject: PROMs offered: Should I take? > I've been offered a cheap price on a tubeful of Signetics 82S123 bipolar >PROMs. > > If memory serves (pun intended), these were used as boot ROMs for various >PDP-11's of the UniBus persuasion. > > Is this so? If so, are they also useful for other classic apps? I'm >considering picking them up, but don't know for sure whether I'd be wasting >$10 or not... > > Thanks in advance. > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies >http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com >Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 >"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our >own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." > From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Apr 1 12:00:20 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:30 2005 Subject: whos this doof news@cosmic.com? Message-ID: <000f01bf9c04$25e74920$7564c0d0@ajp166> Is the listserv being spammed by this doof or is it a posting problem? >news@cosmic.com Allison From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Apr 1 12:24:47 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:30 2005 Subject: PROMs offered: Should I take? In-Reply-To: <000401bf9c03$4ec45d70$7564c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000401102447.009495e0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 12:54 01-04-2000 -0500, you wrote: >Well, 82s123 are proms, they are used in a lot of places however are they >programmed or not? Far as I know, they're blank. >If they are you get whats in them. If not, you need a way to blast them. Looked at my web page lately? Device programming is a part of my side business. Support for bipolar devices is the least of my programmer's capabilities. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Apr 1 12:25:24 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:30 2005 Subject: whos this doof news@cosmic.com? In-Reply-To: <000f01bf9c04$25e74920$7564c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000401102524.00940c70@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 13:00 01-04-2000 -0500, you wrote: >Is the listserv being spammed by this doof or is it a posting problem? > >>news@cosmic.com It's probably spam, but I need something with a message body in it before I can file a complaint. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 1 12:00:41 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:30 2005 Subject: PROMs offered: Should I take? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000401090955.0093cc00@mail.bluefeathertech.com> from "Bruce Lane" at Apr 1, 0 09:09:55 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 880 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000401/dccd63ea/attachment.ksh From ernestls at home.com Sat Apr 1 13:25:05 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:30 2005 Subject: Possible treasure haul...help? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201bf9c0f$fc717640$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> Yeah, I agree. I got into a situation where a guy knew that I wanted a particular item in his collection of junk, and he told me that I could have it for "free" if I took some other junk with it. I agreed, and before I knew it, he was dumping everything he could into my truck, except the item that I wanted. He was one of those seemingly dumb, country bumpkin types that turned out to be quite a bit sharper that me. We ended up getting into an argument about it -and how I felt that he was taking advantage of me. He was to infuriating for me to try to talk reasonably with, so I told him to forget the whole thing, and I started to take his junk out of my truck. He wouldn't take it back, so I shrugged, and said "OK." I got into my truck, drove to the end of his dirt road, and dumped all of his junk right in the middle of his driveway. The moral is, make an exact agreement. Don't count on other folks being as reasonable and fair minded as you, and don't count on their good will. If they're good people, great but if not, you could be left holding the bag. Also, watch out for those country bumpkin types because they just might surprise you, as I learned, much to my chagrin. Ernest -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Mike Ford Sent: Friday, March 31, 2000 3:17 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Possible treasure haul...help? >For anyone in Southern California (specifically Ventura area): I made a >contact with an eBay-only reseller (mostly test equipment) who >occasionally picks up old computer junk. Up until now, he usually scraps >pounds of gear alone, but we do what we must. It could work out well; he >was complaining about his shortage of time/labor, and at the same time >basically saying that all of the computer stuff he has is worth almost >nothing to him... I've done this in the past, and my suggestion is to do it gradually, ie don't drive up and work your tail off all weekend then see how the reward side of it goes. I would attempt to cut a CLEAR deal up front, what it is you will do, and how much you will pay for "anything" you find in the pile. What I very much dislike is the practice among scrappers that once your find and ID an item then the price rises like bubbles in soda. Offering labor until you are sick of it, and x cents per pound, is the prudent path. From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sat Apr 1 12:48:42 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:30 2005 Subject: Santee swap serendipity Message-ID: <200004011848.KAA08488@oa.ptloma.edu> Unix server freaks missed out at the Santee swapmeet. Some guy was selling an original NeXT for $75, there were a whole row of Sparc SLCs at $15 a pop, and an SGI Indigo and two SParc 2s. The Sparc 2s were loaded with Linux and ready to run. There was also a Mac Portable, but by the time I came back to buy it it was gone :-( The only server I care about is my Apple Network Server 500, but if you're near the San Diego area show up on the first/third Saturdays of the month -- they might be back. There were also some assorted Data General boards (dated 1968) but I have little experience with them. I got, myself, an NEC 8201A. I understand this acts like a Model 100. It works great, came with the leather case, and is in fantastic condition, but it has no manuals whatsoever. Any resources I might consult for it? How do I connect a modem (or does it have an internal one) to use the Term program? It was only $10 :-) In my eyes, though, the real prize was a Timex Sinclair 1000 with 1016 RAM pack and six tapes, manual and all the cables EXCEPT the power supply. The manual has no pinout. It looks like a 9V 1/8" jack but is it centre negative or positive? At the bottom of the box, when I got it home, I also found that there was, of all things, an AIM-65 BASIC manual in there too. Also, has anyone turned up an Atari 130XE power supply in their travails? I'm still trying to get that XEGS working. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I've dedicated my life to linguini." ----- From peter at joules0.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 1 12:55:25 2000 From: peter at joules0.demon.co.uk (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:30 2005 Subject: whos this doof news@cosmic.com? In-Reply-To: <000f01bf9c04$25e74920$7564c0d0@ajp166> References: <000f01bf9c04$25e74920$7564c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: In article <000f01bf9c04$25e74920$7564c0d0@ajp166>, allisonp writes >Is the listserv being spammed by this doof or is it a posting problem? > >>news@cosmic.com > > >Allison > It looks from the headers as if it has come through the NetBSD port-vax list. Either someone is practising for a spam or they have cocked up their configuration. -- Regards Pete From ip500 at roanoke.infi.net Sat Apr 1 13:21:19 2000 From: ip500 at roanoke.infi.net (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:30 2005 Subject: VAX station 2000 HD details? Message-ID: <38E64C2F.B28BF986@roanoke.infi.net> Not really old enough to be a classic but looks useful. Sep portable, w/handle Hard drive-----model VS410-AA-- Anyone know what is inside--drivewise? RD52,53,54 maybe? Thanks From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Apr 1 14:36:28 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: whos this doof news@cosmic.com? In-Reply-To: References: <000f01bf9c04$25e74920$7564c0d0@ajp166> <000f01bf9c04$25e74920$7564c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000401123517.02af4de0@208.226.86.10> Actually it looks like someone has tried to set up a port-vax -> news gateway and screwed up. I'm guessing that each blank message is a "follow up" that someone has posted to port-vax that the software is attempting to, but failing to forward to port-vax. --Chuck At 07:55 PM 4/1/00 +0100, Peter Joules wrote: >In article <000f01bf9c04$25e74920$7564c0d0@ajp166>, allisonp > writes > >Is the listserv being spammed by this doof or is it a posting problem? > > > >>news@cosmic.com > > > > > >Allison > > > >It looks from the headers as if it has come through the NetBSD port-vax >list. Either someone is practising for a spam or they have cocked up >their configuration. >-- >Regards >Pete From Technoid at cheta.net Sat Apr 1 04:35:38 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: CDrom and SunStation 330 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200004012039.PAA21595@lexington.ioa.net> I ran accross a reference in the newsgroups that indicates the Toshiba 3701b cdrom drive can be run on a sun box with the change of a single jumper but what jumper. Also, this drive's id jumpers are labeled id1,id2,id4 instead of the normal convention. How should I configure id6. I am trying to boot Solaris 7 for sparc on a sparcstation 330 which does not have the 'new' command prompt - only the old monitor. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Apr 1 14:29:52 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: VAX station 2000 HD details? Message-ID: <004e01bf9c1b$7c808230$7664c0d0@ajp166> The hard drive can be any of the RD51-54, RD31, RD32 others are possible as user retrofits. Typically the hard drive was a RD53(71mb) or RD54(159mb). Allison -----Original Message----- From: Craig Smith To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, April 01, 2000 3:06 PM Subject: VAX station 2000 HD details? >Not really old enough to be a classic but looks useful. Sep >portable, w/handle Hard drive-----model VS410-AA-- > Anyone know what is inside--drivewise? RD52,53,54 maybe? >Thanks > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Apr 1 14:46:43 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: Santee swap serendipity In-Reply-To: Cameron Kaiser "Santee swap serendipity" (Apr 1, 10:48) References: <200004011848.KAA08488@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <10004012146.ZM25274@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 1, 10:48, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > In my eyes, though, the real prize was a Timex Sinclair 1000 with 1016 RAM > pack and six tapes, manual and all the cables EXCEPT the power supply. The > manual has no pinout. It looks like a 9V 1/8" jack but is it centre > negative or positive? It's centre-negative, on a 2.5mm power jack. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From chris at mainecoon.com Sat Apr 1 15:09:35 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: CDrom and SunStation 330 References: <200004012039.PAA21595@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <38E6658F.6D738B9F@mainecoon.com> Technoid@cheta.net wrote: > I ran accross a reference in the newsgroups that indicates the Toshiba > 3701b cdrom drive can be run on a sun box with the change of a single > jumper but what jumper. I've no ideal; all of my "Sun" CDROM drives are Toshiba but other than a factory test jumper and the ID jumpers there's nothing to suggest that they have hardware-selected block sizes. > Also, this drive's id jumpers are labeled > id1,id2,id4 instead of the normal convention. How should I configure id6. Um that *is* the normal convention -- address bitweights. 2 + 4 = 6 :-) > I am trying to boot Solaris 7 for sparc on a sparcstation 330 which does > not have the 'new' command prompt - only the old monitor. I doubt it's going to work. 2.7 (aka 5.7 aka Solaris 7) was supposed to have dropped support for all VME machines save for the 660MP (which then got ditched by 2.8 [aka 5.8 aka Solairs 8 -- pick your marketing convention]). You might try 2.6; certainly 2.5.1 plus a ton of patches should work. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From Technoid at cheta.net Sat Apr 1 05:12:24 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: Dec MicroVax 3100 at Comp. Parts Barn In-Reply-To: <004e01bf9c1b$7c808230$7664c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <200004012111.QAA26594@lexington.ioa.net> I was at computer parts barn the other day and scoped a complete microvax 3100 with rd40 removable cart drive, monitor and other gear. E-mail EDCPB@email.com for your ticket! -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Apr 1 15:19:35 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: VAX station 2000 HD details? Message-ID: <000401161935.22400b7c@trailing-edge.com> > VAX station 2000 HD details? A lot of what you might ever want to know is answered in ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt I'm guessing that between that document and the DEC Micronotes about 80% of the questions asked here about DEC stuff are answered... Tim. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 1 15:26:41 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: Santee swap serendipity In-Reply-To: <10004012146.ZM25274@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Apr 1, 0 08:46:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 963 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000401/8e62cac0/attachment.ksh From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sat Apr 1 15:45:17 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: CDrom and SunStation 330 In-Reply-To: <200004012039.PAA21595@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: One of my previous responses has the URL for the Sun CDROM Faq; this is answered toward the bottom. Aaron On Sat, 1 Apr 2000 Technoid@cheta.net wrote: > I ran accross a reference in the newsgroups that indicates the Toshiba > 3701b cdrom drive can be run on a sun box with the change of a single > jumper but what jumper. Also, this drive's id jumpers are labeled > id1,id2,id4 instead of the normal convention. How should I configure id6. > > I am trying to boot Solaris 7 for sparc on a sparcstation 330 which does > not have the 'new' command prompt - only the old monitor. > > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jeffrey S. Worley > Technical Services > Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. > 1979B Hendersonville Road > Asheville, NC 28803 > 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days > 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax > Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? > Technoid@Cheta.net > ----------------------------------------------------------- > From mranalog at home.com Sat Apr 1 15:57:08 2000 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: PROMs offered: Should I take? Message-ID: <38E670B4.34D3A078@home.com> > Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 09:09:55 -0800 > From: Bruce Lane > Subject: PROMs offered: Should I take? > > I've been offered a cheap price on a tubeful of Signetics 82S123 bipolar > PROMs. If memory serves (pun intended), these were used as boot ROMs for various > PDP-11's of the UniBus persuasion. > Is this so? If so, are they also useful for other classic apps? I'm > considering picking them up, but don't know for sure whether I'd be wasting > $10 or not... > Thanks in advance. The 82S123 is the installed monitor PROM in the Quest Super ELF and it's a great little PROM for any 1802 application. I believe most of the toggle switch monitors listed in the PE ELF articles will fit in 32 bytes. And since the 1802 need external address latching to access more than 256 bytes, having your whole operating system in 32 bytes leaves plenty of space for applications on a 256 byte minimalist system. :) --Doug ==================================================== Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com (work) Sr. Software Eng. mranalog@home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ==================================================== From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Apr 1 16:01:47 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: CDrom and SunStation 330 In-Reply-To: Chris Kennedy "Re: CDrom and SunStation 330" (Apr 1, 13:09) References: <200004012039.PAA21595@lexington.ioa.net> <38E6658F.6D738B9F@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <10004012301.ZM25364@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 1, 13:09, Chris Kennedy wrote: > Technoid@cheta.net wrote: > > > I ran accross a reference in the newsgroups that indicates the Toshiba > > 3701b cdrom drive can be run on a sun box with the change of a single > > jumper but what jumper. > > I've no ideal; all of my "Sun" CDROM drives are Toshiba but other than > a factory test jumper and the ID jumpers there's nothing to suggest that > they have hardware-selected block sizes. Early Suns need the drive to be set for 512-byte blocks; later Sun boot PROMs can issue the appropriate mode-select command if they detect the drive is set to 2048-byte blocks. XM3301 and XM3401 have two pairs of pads on the PCB near the jumper block; these are normally both closed (bridged by a thin track) on drives sold for the PC market, but both open for Suns. The pads are small semicircles, labelled 0 and 1. There's a very similar set of pads on an XM3601, but they don't change the blocksize, at least not with standard Toshiba firmware. I don't know about a 3701, as I don't have one. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Apr 1 16:06:07 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: Santee swap serendipity In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Santee swap serendipity" (Apr 1, 22:26) References: Message-ID: <10004012306.ZM25380@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 1, 22:26, Tony Duell wrote: > The Spectrum uses a 'power connector', probably 2.5mm (but I've not > measured it). The central pin of the part on the PCB is -ve, and the > outer of the plug (cable mounted part) is therefore +ve. > > The ZX81 uses a 3.5mm jack socket (what you call a 'phone socket' across > the Pond) for the power input. The tip is +ve and the sleeve is -ve. Oops, looks like I was too hasty and grabbed the wrong PSU. I'm sure Tony is right, now that I think about it. The ZX81 certainly uses a 3.5mm jack. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From rexstout at uswest.net Sat Apr 1 20:08:32 2000 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: I think I'm back to the list... Message-ID: Yow! The things that happen to an overloaded email account... Well, I finally started reading the digests for the list. I'm up to early February now! Only a month left to catch up with. Well, I finally found the perfect computer! It's an HP Vectra 486/25NI. When I was volunteering at the computer lab at OMSI(http://www.omsi.edu/), my favorite computer was a Vectra 386. They're just such cute computers! Well, here in Portland at the NW PDX/Vaughn St. Wacky Willy's, they have probably two dozen Vectras of various models(most are 486/25N or 33N) for $20 each. After looking at them for a while, I noticed that the 25NI(the only one I saw, but there may have been others) has a built-in 10Base-T ethernet port on the back! Not only that, but it has an Overdrive socket that can accept a 486DX2/66 or an Overdrive kit. Pretty good! It has 8MB RAM and a 120MB hard drive, not too bad. It had Windows 3.1 on it, but it would crash both when it started up(actually an unhappy mainframe connection) and when it shutdown(Windows crash). I think they all had Attachmate (I can't remember if those are 3270) network adapters in them. Anyways, it got wiped and a fresh copy of DOS installed. Now I'm happy, I finally have a useable PC(my PS/2 386's just weren't good enough). OK, so it's a bit new for you guys. They also had a Televideo terminal and some HUGE IBM printer(I forget the model... coax connector on back). Now, to deal with my overcrowded basement. I need to get rid of some stuff! To start off with, I have some terminals to get rid of. I think I can dig out about 6 of them, maybe a few more I'm not sure. They are the Wyse WY-99GT. Most of them are a little yellowed, but they work fine. They're free for the taking, I just need some time to find them all and match them with their keyboards. The only catch is that you have to pick it up at my house in north Portland(just off of I-5). Email me if you're interested and I'll let you know when they're ready to go. Back to reading another months worth of email digests... -- /-------------------------------------------------------\ | http://jrollins.tripod.com/ rexstout@uswest.net | | KD7BCY List admin for orham and ham-mac at www.qth.net | | pdxham at www.onelist.com | \-------------------------------------------------------/ From Glenatacme at aol.com Sat Apr 1 22:26:46 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: Santee swap serendipity Message-ID: <8a.21807f7.26182606@aol.com> Tony Duell wrote: > The ZX81 uses a 3.5mm jack socket (what you call a 'phone socket' across > the Pond) for the power input. The tip is +ve and the sleeve is -ve. Actually, in the States a "phone plug" or "phone jack" is 1/4" -- the kind used in ancient telephone switchboards, hence the name. To make it more interesting we also have "phono" (aka RCA) jacks and plugs, used for connecting phonographs and their amplifiers. Do these connectors have different names on your side? Glen 0/0 From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sun Apr 2 03:23:15 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: Ersatz-11 V2.2 (PDP-11 emulator) Message-ID: <200004020823.EAA06711@dbit.dbit.com> A new version of Ersatz-11 is now available. V2.2 of the freeware Demo version may be downloaded from www.dbit.com as usual, and commercial users with current update subscriptions (or ones that expired only recently) will be mailed update disks tomorrow. Probably the most interesting addition for hobby users is the new VT11 vector graphic display processor emulation. Yes, it runs the Lunar Lander game. It also works nicely with the GT ON command in older versions of RT-11, as well as EDIT.SAV's scroller mode. A copy of Jack Burness's Lunar Lander game which is all set up to run under the emulator is available at: http://www.dbit.com/pub/e11/lunar/ Other changes which are visible even in the Demo version include the SET CPU FIS and SET CPU EAE options, the Interlan NI1010A/NI2010A Ethernet emulation, the built-in mini-assembler, and the overhauled manual. The full commercial V2.2 release includes the above changes, plus it adds a new DR11C/DRV11 emulation using TLC's DCI-1300 PCI board, which is pin-compatible with the DR11C/DRV11. Also there's a new DH11/DM11BB emulation, the RocketPort driver can handle ISA cards (used to be PCI only), the SCSI disk driver can partition disks on any boundary, multiple serial ports can be attached to the same emulated PDP-11 port (with duplicate output and merged input), and the Q/Unibus adapter drivers allow subsetting of the I/O page so you can have multiple adapters, to get a dual Q/Unibus system, or two identical busses for distributing heavy DMA loads. The new DMA-friendly BCI-2004 bus adapter is supported in addition to the older BCI-2003/2103 and UPG-3600 boards. Also, the DEQNA emulation now supports booting over the network. Acrobat files containing the manuals for all three versions (Demo, Lite, full) of E11 are available on the "Links" page on www.dbit.com. The Demo version's manual .PDF file is also part of the self-extracting INSTALL.EXE archive, plus it's available as a PostScript file at: ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/e11/e11demo.ps The E11/Linux port is nearing completion and will be released this summer, however it will probably only be available in a commercial version. John Wilson D Bit www.dbit.com From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sun Apr 2 12:09:41 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: PROMs offered: Should I take? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000401090955.0093cc00@mail.bluefeathertech.com>; from kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com on Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 09:09:55AM -0800 References: <3.0.5.32.20000401090955.0093cc00@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <20000402130941.A7963@dbit.dbit.com> On Sat, Apr 01, 2000 at 09:09:55AM -0800, Bruce Lane wrote: > I've been offered a cheap price on a tubeful of Signetics 82S123 bipolar > PROMs. > > If memory serves (pun intended), these were used as boot ROMs for various > PDP-11's of the UniBus persuasion. My own flakey memory is telling me that the M9312 style bootstraps go in 82S130 PROMs, could be wrong though. Maybe it's the 82S129? Whichever one is O.C. I believe the size works out to 128 bytes each, after the hardware repacks it on the fly into 16-bit words. > Is this so? If so, are they also useful for other classic apps? I'm > considering picking them up, but don't know for sure whether I'd be wasting > $10 or not... Personally I'd go for it. You just never know!! John Wilson D Bit From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 2 12:29:26 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: Santee swap serendipity In-Reply-To: <8a.21807f7.26182606@aol.com> from "Glenatacme@aol.com" at Apr 1, 0 11:26:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1608 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000402/2bd2fb18/attachment.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Apr 2 12:49:50 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: Santee swap serendipity Message-ID: <000402134950.22400c74@trailing-edge.com> >So what do you call the plug on a 'walkman' headphone? We'd call it a 3 >pole (or 'stereo') 3.5mm jack plug. Here when it's not called 3.5mm, it's called 1/8th inch. And the 2.5mm version is 3/32 inch. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 2 13:05:02 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: Santee swap serendipity In-Reply-To: <000402134950.22400c74@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Apr 2, 0 01:49:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 349 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000402/6846a0a7/attachment.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Apr 2 13:14:15 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: Santee swap serendipity Message-ID: <000402141415.22400c74@trailing-edge.com> >> >So what do you call the plug on a 'walkman' headphone? We'd call it a 3 >> >pole (or 'stereo') 3.5mm jack plug. >> >> Here when it's not called 3.5mm, it's called 1/8th inch. And the 2.5mm >> version is 3/32 inch. >Yes, but what do you call that type of connector? Is it a 'phone plug' >even though it's not 1/4" in diameter, or what? Yep, it's still a "phone plug", often listed as a "mini phone plug". -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Sun Apr 2 13:41:19 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: Santee swap serendipity In-Reply-To: ; from Tony Duell on Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 07:05:02PM +0100 References: <000402134950.22400c74@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20000402114119.C28999@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 07:05:02PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > >So what do you call the plug on a 'walkman' headphone? We'd call it a 3 > > >pole (or 'stereo') 3.5mm jack plug. > > > > Here when it's not called 3.5mm, it's called 1/8th inch. And the 2.5mm > > version is 3/32 inch. > > Yes, but what do you call that type of connector? Is it a 'phone plug' > even though it's not 1/4" in diameter, or what? Yep. It's a phone plug regardless of size AFAIK. You also mentioned a "coax" plug used for antennas... we have one called a "motorola" plug used for car radio antennas, that has a metal sheath which surrounds the coax cable and is about the same diameter, and a pin sticking out for the center conductor. A "coax" plug usually means the kind used for DC power connections, with an outer barrel and an inner barrel, which mates with a jack that has a pin for the inner barrel and usually a single finger that presses against the side of the outer barrel. I think I've seen about 6 or 8 different sizes of those. -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From Innfogra at aol.com Sun Apr 2 13:44:52 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: Santee swap serendipity Message-ID: 3.5mm is a 1/8" Mini phone plug, stereo or mono 2.5 is a 3/32" Micro phone plug, stereo or mono Paxton From transit at lerctr.org Sun Apr 2 14:15:27 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: Santee swap serendipity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Apr 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > interesting we also have "phono" (aka RCA) jacks and plugs, used for > > connecting phonographs and their amplifiers. Do these connectors have > > different names on your side? > > > > The 'phono plug' is the name used over here for that connector (the one > used, say, for an Apple ][ video output). It's the same connector (and name) , used for both audio and (composite) video input/output. here in the States. From transit at lerctr.org Sun Apr 2 14:17:52 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: Phone plugs, etc. (was: Re: Santee swap serendipity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Apr 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > >So what do you call the plug on a 'walkman' headphone? We'd call it a 3 > > >pole (or 'stereo') 3.5mm jack plug. > > > > Here when it's not called 3.5mm, it's called 1/8th inch. And the 2.5mm > > version is 3/32 inch. > > Yes, but what do you call that type of connector? Is it a 'phone plug' > even though it's not 1/4" in diameter, or what? "Mini phone plug" for the 1/8" and "sub mini phone plug" for the 3/32" version. From oliv555 at arrl.net Sun Apr 2 15:27:05 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: RC-25 power Message-ID: <38E7AD19.E46870FF@arrl.net> Just picked up one of these, was a pull from a 11/725 and has a 4-pin plastic in-line plug in the back. Don't have any docs for this. Can anyone provide the pinouts for this power plug ? ------- | O |< | O | | O | | O | ------- Thanks ............. Nick From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sun Apr 2 15:32:03 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: Mailing list archives? Questions... Message-ID: Hi all, I know that Kevan posted that he's working on getting his archives back up, but a question in the meantime... I've been thinking of making a new archive of the list available at retrobytes.org (starting with this month); any comments/concerns/advice? Do I have to get anyone's explicit permission to do this? Lastly, assuming I go through with this, would people prefer that I set Mhonarc to obfuscate everyone's email addresses? The benefit, of course, is that a spammer's address crawler couldn't pick up everyone's addresses from the page like they do on newsgroups; the drawback is that people wouldn't be able to directly contact the authors. If the general feeling is that you'd rather the addresses be hidden, perhaps I could create two archives...one private for classiccmp list members to search the archives *with* addresses, and one public with the obfuscated addresses. As usual, any imput at all would be appreciated. Cheers, Aaron From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sun Apr 2 15:46:06 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: IC ID help needed Message-ID: <20000402204606.1558.qmail@web615.mail.yahoo.com> --- allisonp wrote: > 74C92x is TI and you need to find a TI or maybe motorola CMOS databook > CA1980ish. > >NS 74C921... These are not TI, they are Nat Semi as indicated by the double squiggly lines before the number. In any case, if I have the relevant data book, it's backed way far away in a box somewhere. Thanks to all for all the info. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 2 15:57:04 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: Santee swap serendipity In-Reply-To: <000402141415.22400c74@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Apr 2, 0 02:14:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 307 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000402/4012c1b4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 2 16:11:39 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: Santee swap serendipity In-Reply-To: from "Charles P. Hobbs" at Apr 2, 0 02:15:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1201 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000402/759495db/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 2 16:24:57 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: Mailing list archives? Questions... In-Reply-To: from "Aaron Christopher Finney" at Apr 2, 0 01:32:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 676 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000402/f22e3575/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 2 16:04:56 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: Santee swap serendipity In-Reply-To: <20000402114119.C28999@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> from "Shawn T. Rutledge" at Apr 2, 0 11:41:19 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1731 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000402/dd2e0ffd/attachment.ksh From vaxman at uswest.net Sun Apr 2 17:10:20 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: Mailing list archives? Questions... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Aaron, Thanks for asking... I think you should have a single archive with the Email addresses erased. If I find an old message, and want to converse with that person, I can ask on the list for contact information. If he (or she :) isn't on list anymore, they probably aren't involved with good computers anymore... Just my opinion... With that and 2 cents you can buy a '286 PC... Clint On Sun, 2 Apr 2000, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > Hi all, > > I know that Kevan posted that he's working on getting his archives back > up, but a question in the meantime... > > I've been thinking of making a new archive of the list available at > retrobytes.org (starting with this month); any comments/concerns/advice? > > Do I have to get anyone's explicit permission to do this? > > Lastly, assuming I go through with this, would people prefer that I set > Mhonarc to obfuscate everyone's email addresses? The benefit, of course, > is that a spammer's address crawler couldn't pick up everyone's addresses > from the page like they do on newsgroups; the drawback is that people > wouldn't be able to directly contact the authors. > > If the general feeling is that you'd rather the addresses be hidden, > perhaps I could create two archives...one private for classiccmp list > members to search the archives *with* addresses, and one public with the > obfuscated addresses. > > As usual, any imput at all would be appreciated. > > Cheers, > > Aaron > > > From broth at heathers.stdio.com Sun Apr 2 20:12:45 2000 From: broth at heathers.stdio.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: RC-25 power References: <38E7AD19.E46870FF@arrl.net> Message-ID: <38E7F00D.264611CD@heathers.stdio.com> Nick, If you ever decide to get rid of this guy, I tried to get it from eBay but got busy during the last minutes of the auction(Actually I forgot!) I have a working 725 thats missing that drive. Brian. Nick Oliviero wrote: > Just picked up one of these, was a pull from a 11/725 and > has a 4-pin plastic in-line plug in the back. > > Don't have any docs for this. Can anyone provide the pinouts > for this power plug ? > > ------- > | O |< > | O | > | O | > | O | > ------- > > Thanks ............. Nick From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Sun Apr 2 21:24:02 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: Santee swap serendipity References: Message-ID: <001d01bf9d13$add1a3c0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)" To: Sent: Monday, April 03, 2000 4:45 AM Subject: Re: Santee swap serendipity > On Sun, 2 Apr 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > interesting we also have "phono" (aka RCA) jacks and plugs, used for > > > connecting phonographs and their amplifiers. Do these connectors have > > > different names on your side? > > > > > > > The 'phono plug' is the name used over here for that connector (the one > > used, say, for an Apple ][ video output). > > > It's the same connector (and name) , used for both audio and (composite) > video input/output. here in the States. We have them too, for the same purpose, but we call them "RCA Plugs/sockets" The TV coax ones Tony mentioned are used here as well, we call them by their full name, "Belling-Lee connector". Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From jlewczyk at his.com Sun Apr 2 23:05:09 2000 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: One of only 3 "enigma machine" stolen; A piece of ENIAC was up for auction. In-Reply-To: <001d01bf9d13$add1a3c0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: <000001bf9d21$cd693910$013da8c0@Corellian> http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_698000/698804.stm An Enigma machine used by the Nazis to send coded messages during World War Two, has been stolen from the code-cracking Station X at Bletchley Park, Buckinghamshire. The machine, worth about ?100,000, is one of only three in the world. It was brought to the UK after the war. I bet it was somebody on this list who grabbed it! Fess up! ;-) I see it as another sign of how serious our hobby is becoming. Its valued at 100,000 pounds! I wonder what it will fetch on ebay? ;-) On the other hand, a piece of ENIAC from Eckert's estate was up for auction this weekend in Philadelphia (http://skinner.lycos.com/Scripts/ListingInfo.asp?LotNo=10083515&SiteCatNo=8 1397). Opening bid was $4K, they expected it to go to $8-$12K US. They didn't get a nibble! Go figure! I was rather tempted, but don't have that deep pockets. From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sun Apr 2 23:47:10 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: Santee swap serendipity In-Reply-To: <001d01bf9d13$add1a3c0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> from Geoff Roberts at "Apr 3, 0 11:54:02 am" Message-ID: <200004030447.VAA09546@oa.ptloma.edu> Well, back to the saga of the Timex Sinclair 1000. Thanks to Tony et al, I looked at the power supplies in my goodies box and found that, of all things, the Atari 2600 one matches the specs -- maybe. When I plug it in, it pumps out RF and even with it unplugged from the TV I can see EM interference, so something inside must be working. However, it won't make a picture! Augh! Suggestions to check? This is a slide switchbox it's connected to, and the setup works for the 2600 and the Inty, so I guarantee you it's not the TV hookup. As for the NEC 8201A, I found a whole mess of stuff online, and got it a power supply and new batteries. Lovely thing -- it has almost replaced my Tandy PC-4 for favourite portable, but the PC-4 still wins on cutesy points. :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Why is it you can only trust short, dumpy spies? -- Hogan, "Hogan's Heroes" From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sun Apr 2 23:48:43 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: One of only 3 "enigma machine" stolen; A piece of ENIAC was up for auction. Message-ID: <20000403044843.19838.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> --- John Lewczyk wrote: > http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_698000/698804.stm > > An Enigma machine used by the Nazis to send coded messages during World War > Two, has been stolen from the code-cracking Station X at Bletchley Park, > Buckinghamshire. The machine, worth about £100,000, is one of only three in > the world. It was brought to the UK after the war. > > I bet it was somebody on this list who grabbed it! Fess up! ;-) The closest I've come is photographing the one at the Deutches Museum on my recent trip to visit Hans. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From transit at lerctr.org Sun Apr 2 23:49:07 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: Classic computing stops in Boston area In-Reply-To: <200003291441.GAA07682@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Mar 2000, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > ::On Tue, Mar 28, 2000 at 06:14:18PM -0600, Paul Thompson wrote: > ::> I will be in Burlington MA next week on business, with a fair amount of > ::> off hours time off. I have heard rumors of electronics shop(s) in the > ::> vicinity of MIT having an interesting selection of old DEC or other > ::> classic computing hardware. Also isn't one of the computer museums in that > ::> area? > > How about stuff like that in the Inland Empire, California? Anyone know > any interesting places to hit? I'll even travel to L.A. (shiver) There's roughly one electronics/computer/ham radio swap meet per week now in So. Cal 2nd Sat: Cal Poly Pomona 3rd Sat: A.B. Miller High School in Fontana (maybe I got those two mixed up) Last Sat: TRW, Redondo Beach ------------------------------------------------------------------ Charles P. Hobbs transit@lerctr.org > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu > -- Xerox never comes up with anything original. ------------------------------- > From mrdos at swbell.net Mon Apr 3 00:22:42 2000 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: One of only 3 "enigma machine" stolen; A piece of ENIAC was up forauction. Message-ID: <004a01bf9d2c$baf985e0$87703ed8@compaq> Just out of curiosity, is there still a chance of getting that piece of the ENIAC? -----Original Message----- From: John Lewczyk To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Sunday, April 02, 2000 11:36 PM Subject: One of only 3 "enigma machine" stolen; A piece of ENIAC was up forauction. http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_698000/698804.stm An Enigma machine used by the Nazis to send coded messages during World War Two, has been stolen from the code-cracking Station X at Bletchley Park, Buckinghamshire. The machine, worth about ?100,000, is one of only three in the world. It was brought to the UK after the war. I bet it was somebody on this list who grabbed it! Fess up! ;-) I see it as another sign of how serious our hobby is becoming. Its valued at 100,000 pounds! I wonder what it will fetch on ebay? ;-) On the other hand, a piece of ENIAC from Eckert's estate was up for auction this weekend in Philadelphia (http://skinner.lycos.com/Scripts/ListingInfo.asp?LotNo=10083515&SiteCatNo=8 1397). Opening bid was $4K, they expected it to go to $8-$12K US. They didn't get a nibble! Go figure! I was rather tempted, but don't have that deep pockets. From mac at Wireless.Com Mon Apr 3 00:26:28 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: One of only 3 "enigma machine" stolen; A piece of ENIAC was up for auction. In-Reply-To: <20000403044843.19838.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: As for the BBC article saying it was only one of three in the world, this is hard to believe. Thousands of Enigmas were built, and it's quite difficult to believe that all but three have been destroyed. The Computer Museum History Center has at least one, and I know that the NSA lobby also is reported to have one. As the article points out, even Mick Jagger owns an Enigma machine, but of a different type than the stolen machine. I know about the 4-rotor and 3-rotor versions; what other types have there been? And, what is unique about the Bletchley Park Enigma that made it only one of three in the world? -Mike On Sun, 2 Apr 2000, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > --- John Lewczyk wrote: > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_698000/698804.stm > > > > An Enigma machine used by the Nazis to send coded messages during World War > > Two, has been stolen from the code-cracking Station X at Bletchley Park, > > Buckinghamshire. The machine, worth about £100,000, is one of only three in > > the world. It was brought to the UK after the war. > > > > I bet it was somebody on this list who grabbed it! Fess up! ;-) > > The closest I've come is photographing the one at the Deutches Museum on > my recent trip to visit Hans. > > -ethan From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Apr 3 00:06:35 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: Mailing list archives? Questions... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The functional difference between a mailing list and a newsgroup is privacy. I would prefer that archives were only available to the members of the list, but the last archive was open and several search engines now have our text in their databases, so its closing the barn door after the horse is gone. OTOH 99% of what we say is done in a "public" context. Given the recent floppy thread what we need are summaries, not archives. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Apr 3 00:35:17 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: SoCal hamfests In-Reply-To: References: <200003291441.GAA07682@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: >> How about stuff like that in the Inland Empire, California? Anyone know >> any interesting places to hit? I'll even travel to L.A. (shiver) > > > >There's roughly one electronics/computer/ham radio swap meet per week now >in So. Cal > >2nd Sat: Cal Poly Pomona >3rd Sat: A.B. Miller High School in Fontana (maybe I got those two mixed >up) >Last Sat: TRW, Redondo Beach 1st Sat and (sort of) 3rd Sat Santee (East of San Diego about 10 miles). ****** WRONG, correct dates are. 2nd Fontana 3rd Pomona ****** From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Apr 3 01:46:47 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: One of only 3 "enigma machine" stolen; A piece of ENIAC was up for auction. References: Message-ID: <007d01bf9d38$626b6cc0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Cheponis" To: Sent: Monday, April 03, 2000 2:56 PM Subject: Re: One of only 3 "enigma machine" stolen; A piece of ENIAC was up for auction. > And, what is unique about the Bletchley Park Enigma that made it only one of > three in the world? Very likely that it's one that was built by the Poles just before WW2 after they collared one bound for the German Embassy long enough to dismantle it and take pics etc. (they arranged to have it held up in customs over a weekend IIRC). This then enabled them to produce some for their own use, one of these eventually found it's way to England, when first Poland, then France, where the operation moved to, were overrun.] That would fit, because only a very few of the Polish built Enigmas survived, the rest were destroyed by the Poles to prevent the Germans finding out they had (at least partly) penetrated it's secrets. This particular machine might well be the one demonstrated on the BBC TV series "The Secret War" in the final episode of the series titled "Still Secret". If so, it was restored to full working order by the teleprinter maintenance dept of the BBC especially for the program in the mid 80's. I'd predict it will probably be recovered in fairly short order. IMHO it would be almost impossible to sell something like this for a fraction of it's supposed value without getting nailed. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Apr 2 20:27:24 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: Mailing list archives? Questions... In-Reply-To: Aaron Christopher Finney "Mailing list archives? Questions..." (Apr 2, 13:32) References: Message-ID: <10004030227.ZM27389@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 2, 13:32, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > I've been thinking of making a new archive of the list available at > retrobytes.org (starting with this month); any comments/concerns/advice? I think that's a good idea. I miss the archive. > Lastly, assuming I go through with this, would people prefer that I set > Mhonarc to obfuscate everyone's email addresses? I'd prefer mine to be obscured in some way, though I don't mind if it's not completely obliterated. If it prevents the more simplistic address-gatherers from reading it, that would be sufficient as far as I'm concerned. > perhaps I could create two archives...one private for classiccmp list > members to search the archives *with* addresses, and one public with the > obfuscated addresses. Sounds like a lot of extra storage :-) I'd just go for one, possibly with munged addresses. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Apr 3 02:57:54 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: Mailing list archives? Questions... In-Reply-To: <10004030227.ZM27389@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Apr 03, 2000 01:27:24 AM Message-ID: <200004030757.BAA27666@calico.litterbox.com> Please obscure my addy too. I've got enough dimwit spammers sending me mail. > > On Apr 2, 13:32, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > > > I've been thinking of making a new archive of the list available at > > retrobytes.org (starting with this month); any comments/concerns/advice? > > I think that's a good idea. I miss the archive. > > > Lastly, assuming I go through with this, would people prefer that I set > > Mhonarc to obfuscate everyone's email addresses? > > I'd prefer mine to be obscured in some way, though I don't mind if it's not > completely obliterated. If it prevents the more simplistic > address-gatherers from reading it, that would be sufficient as far as I'm > concerned. > > > perhaps I could create two archives...one private for classiccmp list > > members to search the archives *with* addresses, and one public with the > > obfuscated addresses. > > Sounds like a lot of extra storage :-) I'd just go for one, possibly with > munged addresses. > > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From cchd at kerberos.davies.net.au Mon Apr 3 03:33:27 2000 From: cchd at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: One of only 3 "enigma machine" stolen; A piece of ENIAC was up for auction. In-Reply-To: <007d01bf9d38$626b6cc0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Apr 2000, Geoff Roberts wrote: > I'd predict it will probably be recovered in fairly short order. IMHO > it would be almost impossible to sell something like this for a fraction > of it's supposed value without getting nailed. That's assuming that the person who stole it was planning to sell it on the open market. It is possible, it was stolen on commission and if so, it may never be seen again (just hidden in some rich persons' collection). Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" From PeksaDO at Cardiff.ac.uk Mon Apr 3 09:44:29 2000 From: PeksaDO at Cardiff.ac.uk (DOUG PEKSA - COMPG) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z )380Z ^IEEE) Message-ID: >> Please feel free to say 'impossible' - my knowledge of electronics > I was rather covering my own back when some clueful person points > out that it is possible to make a GPIB interface using those chips > (althoughI still can't see how ;-)) >> at this level is minimal. > I wasn't trying to 'get at you' and I apologise if I gave that > impression. I didn't think you were 'getting at me'; looking back I should have put a few :-) :-) in my reply! > I am firstly trying to find out what all the options for the 380Z > really were -- my machine is rather cut down, and contains : > Z80 CPU (with 32K RAM) > 40 column VDU > RAM expansion (32K) > Hires graphics > Floppy controller > Terminator I'm going to have to dig my other 380Z out and record what's in that. > Secondly I wanted to warn you against connected PET or HP > peripherals here, as the results would probably not be good for > either the 380Z or the peripheral. I do have the standard PET IEEE peripherals, thanks for the warning. > It would be interesting to figure out just what it does. Feel like > a morning with the TTL databook and a continuity tester? :-). When I get the time, I'll do this. I also thought I could scan or photograph/scan the board and e-mail you a tiff/jpeg Doug. From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Apr 3 04:07:33 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:31 2005 Subject: One of only 3 "enigma machine" stolen; A piece of ENIAC was up for auction. References: Message-ID: <01c501bf9d4c$0d37cfa0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Huw Davies" To: Sent: Monday, April 03, 2000 6:03 PM Subject: Re: One of only 3 "enigma machine" stolen; A piece of ENIAC was up for auction. > That's assuming that the person who stole it was planning to sell it on > the open market. It is possible, it was stolen on commission and if so, it > may never be seen again (just hidden in some rich persons' collection). Can't argue with that. Hopefully it was just a 'target of opportunity'. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From Technoid at cheta.net Mon Apr 3 06:58:33 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: One of only 3 "enigma machine" stolen; A piece of ENIAC was up for auction. In-Reply-To: <000001bf9d21$cd693910$013da8c0@Corellian> Message-ID: <200004031201.IAA04727@lexington.ioa.net> In <000001bf9d21$cd693910$013da8c0@Corellian>, on 04/03/00 at 07:58 AM, "John Lewczyk" said: >I bet it was somebody on this list who grabbed it! Fess up! ;-) I've got an alibi in the logs on my Sun box. It will say I have booted several times and failed to log on as root several dozen times due to password authentication errors. Oh please oh please will someone help me mount this sunos drive on my clone. The closest I have gotten is ''io error - cannot mount xxxxxxxx'' or 'invalid option for filesystem UFS'. I am trying to mount a sunos 5.4 scsi drive on my clone running solaris 7 x86. It is killing me. I have not slept in three days more or less. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 3 09:17:14 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: One of only 3 "enigma machine" stolen; A piece of ENIAC was up for auction. In-Reply-To: <000001bf9d21$cd693910$013da8c0@Corellian> References: <001d01bf9d13$add1a3c0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: <200004031218.e33CIE315817@mail2.siemens.de> > An Enigma machine used by the Nazis to send coded messages during World War > Two, has been stolen from the code-cracking Station X at Bletchley Park, > Buckinghamshire. The machine, worth about £100,000, is one of only three in > the world. It was brought to the UK after the war. > I bet it was somebody on this list who grabbed it! Fess up! ;-) Pssst. > I see it as another sign of how serious our hobby is becoming. Its valued > at 100,000 pounds! I wonder what it will fetch on ebay? ;-) Well, I don't know what configuration the Enigma in question had, but for a basic 3 or even 4 wheel type with no extensions etc. a real price is between 10 and 20 thausand Marks (~5-10 kUSD, 3 to 6 kGBP). Last I've seen on a German auction was a setup a 3 wheel machine, one add on box (realy rare) and a set of 3 additional wheels (exchange for code change). The lot was sold at 21 kDM (~10kUSD, ~6kGBP), and thats way below the named 100kGBP (~300kDM, ~150kUSD). Well, again a hyped up price. Of course, with the usual ignorants, eBay may rocket the price somewhat near the mentioned sum. And for the rarity, again it depends on the Enigma type, and especialy on the type of the add on boxes and even more what additional wheeles are available - as with computer collections, the additional stuff is more worth than the basic unit. For example, the Lorenz SZ42 is maybe priceless, since only two remaining units are known. But dozends of basic enigmas are still alife, and several are displayed in museums around the world. So, just forget about the media hype. Servus Hans -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 3 08:29:24 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: Mailing list archives? Questions... In-Reply-To: <10004030227.ZM27389@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: > > Lastly, assuming I go through with this, would people prefer that I set > > Mhonarc to obfuscate everyone's email addresses? > > I'd prefer mine to be obscured in some way, though I don't mind if it's not > completely obliterated. If it prevents the more simplistic > address-gatherers from reading it, that would be sufficient as far as I'm > concerned. Please do that or respect X-NO-Archive. I"m tired of address harvesters finding me from archives and other places. Allison From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 3 10:38:09 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: Mailing list archives? Questions... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200004031339.e33Dd9318214@mail2.siemens.de> > I know that Kevan posted that he's working on getting his archives back > up, but a question in the meantime... > I've been thinking of making a new archive of the list available at > retrobytes.org (starting with this month); any comments/concerns/advice? Well, why not. I have all messages since June 1998 in a save mail folder, so I'll do all search localy (And if I have some spare time somebody should remember me to put the files to my Mac, so I may use Sherlock for searching). > Do I have to get anyone's explicit permission to do this? If it's relevant, you got mine. > Lastly, assuming I go through with this, would people prefer that I set > Mhonarc to obfuscate everyone's email addresses? The benefit, of course, > is that a spammer's address crawler couldn't pick up everyone's addresses > from the page like they do on newsgroups; the drawback is that people > wouldn't be able to directly contact the authors. I don't care about this. Of course, SPAM rate did increase a bit over the last two month, but it's still less than 1 per day not covered by my filters. To be honest, I don't like false (call as you like it, it's forgery in my mind) mail addresses. It's just wrong in my opinion. And just because some stupid marketing guys send out stuff to my addredd, I will not spoof myself. I have a mailbox at my house, and get an average of 3 advertisements per day, and I'm included in the Robinson list and have a big (A6 size) sticker saying 'Keine Werbung' (No Advertisement) at the mailbox - should I now put up a false name tag ? > If the general feeling is that you'd rather the addresses be hidden, > perhaps I could create two archives...one private for classiccmp list > members to search the archives *with* addresses, and one public with the > obfuscated addresses. Why not, this may be a possible solution - is there a chance to opt in for unchanged address on both archives ? Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From jlewczyk at his.com Mon Apr 3 08:44:12 2000 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: One of only 3 "enigma machine" stolen; A piece of ENIAC was up forauction. In-Reply-To: <004a01bf9d2c$baf985e0$87703ed8@compaq> Message-ID: <000001bf9d72$b20703e0$013da8c0@Corellian> It looks unsold, so go to the web site below. Good luck! The chance of a lifetime! > Just out of curiosity, is there still a chance of getting that > piece of the > ENIAC? On the other hand, a piece of ENIAC from Eckert's estate was up for auction this weekend in Philadelphia (http://skinner.lycos.com/Scripts/ListingInfo.asp?LotNo=10083515&SiteCatNo=8 1397). Opening bid was $4K, they expected it to go to $8-$12K US. They didn't get a nibble! Go figure! I was rather tempted, but don't have that deep pockets. From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Apr 3 09:32:32 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: One of only 3 "enigma machine" stolen; A piece of ENIAC was up for auction. In-Reply-To: <200004031201.IAA04727@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: What is the exact command you are using to mount the drive? What does the partition structure look like for the drive? On Mon, 3 Apr 2000 Technoid@cheta.net wrote: > In <000001bf9d21$cd693910$013da8c0@Corellian>, on 04/03/00 > at 07:58 AM, "John Lewczyk" said: > > >I bet it was somebody on this list who grabbed it! Fess up! ;-) > > I've got an alibi in the logs on my Sun box. It will say I have booted > several times and failed to log on as root several dozen times due to > password authentication errors. > > Oh please oh please will someone help me mount this sunos drive on my > clone. The closest I have gotten is ''io error - cannot mount xxxxxxxx'' > or 'invalid option for filesystem UFS'. > > I am trying to mount a sunos 5.4 scsi drive on my clone running solaris 7 > x86. It is killing me. I have not slept in three days more or less. > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jeffrey S. Worley > Technical Services > Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. > 1979B Hendersonville Road > Asheville, NC 28803 > 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days > 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax > Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? > Technoid@Cheta.net > ----------------------------------------------------------- > From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Apr 3 09:36:32 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: One of only 3 "enigma machine" stolen; A piece of ENIAC was up for auction. In-Reply-To: <200004031218.e33CIE315817@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: I wouldn't be surprised if someone stole this model just to get enough public awareness and hype behind it to make a killing selling their own legitimate unit...can you imagine what a basic Enigma *could* bring on eBay now, since people all over the world know how rare and priceless they are now? (And how much they're worth: $100K!) We'll probably find out soon enough... Cheers, Aaron On Mon, 3 Apr 2000, Hans Franke wrote: > > An Enigma machine used by the Nazis to send coded messages during World War > > Two, has been stolen from the code-cracking Station X at Bletchley Park, > > Buckinghamshire. The machine, worth about £100,000, is one of only three in > > the world. It was brought to the UK after the war. > > > I bet it was somebody on this list who grabbed it! Fess up! ;-) > > Pssst. > > > I see it as another sign of how serious our hobby is becoming. Its valued > > at 100,000 pounds! I wonder what it will fetch on ebay? ;-) > > Well, I don't know what configuration the Enigma in question had, > but for a basic 3 or even 4 wheel type with no extensions etc. > a real price is between 10 and 20 thausand Marks (~5-10 kUSD, > 3 to 6 kGBP). Last I've seen on a German auction was a setup > a 3 wheel machine, one add on box (realy rare) and a set of > 3 additional wheels (exchange for code change). The lot was > sold at 21 kDM (~10kUSD, ~6kGBP), and thats way below the > named 100kGBP (~300kDM, ~150kUSD). Well, again a hyped up > price. Of course, with the usual ignorants, eBay may rocket > the price somewhat near the mentioned sum. > > And for the rarity, again it depends on the Enigma type, > and especialy on the type of the add on boxes and even more > what additional wheeles are available - as with computer > collections, the additional stuff is more worth than the > basic unit. For example, the Lorenz SZ42 is maybe priceless, > since only two remaining units are known. But dozends of > basic enigmas are still alife, and several are displayed > in museums around the world. > > So, just forget about the media hype. > > Servus > Hans > > > > > > > > > > -- > VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen > http://www.vintage.org/vcfe > http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe > From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Apr 3 09:51:38 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: Mailing list archives? Questions... In-Reply-To: <200004031339.e33Dd9318214@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Apr 2000, Hans Franke wrote: > Why not, this may be a possible solution - is there a chance to > opt in for unchanged address on both archives ? Do you mean changing/not changing addresses for individual messgage based on sender? Not in my simple world. The Mhonarc email-->html software is written in perl, so it'd be easy to implement special rules like that...but it's more than I want to do right now (I have enough on my plate). The votes tallied so far would dictate that the addresses be obfuscated on any public archive. I will seriously consider creating a public and private archive, but I'm not sure how I'd create a user list for it. Maybe something as simple as having an email-address as the access code and searching for it in the archives. Cheers, Aaron From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 3 12:29:45 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: Mailing list archives? Questions... In-Reply-To: References: <200004031339.e33Dd9318214@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <200004031530.e33FUjZ25122@mail2.siemens.de> > > Why not, this may be a possible solution - is there a chance to > > opt in for unchanged address on both archives ? > Do you mean changing/not changing addresses for individual messgage based > on sender? Not in my simple world. The Mhonarc email-->html software is > written in perl, so it'd be easy to implement special rules like > that...but it's more than I want to do right now (I have enough on my > plate). Well, I see your point. Maybe just keep my request in mind if you ever may find spare time to add the functionality. I'd realy apreciate this service. Or another thing: maybe just copy only the real name part into the archives and skip the address at all (remember it's ["]name["]
) ? So you only need to come up with generated names for users who don't use a name part in the from header. Couldn't this be a solution ? Address harvesters can't find usefull addresses, while, as usual, the people show their face (name). Or is there any reason to put up a mask ? > The votes tallied so far would dictate that the addresses be obfuscated on > any public archive. I will seriously consider creating a public and > private archive, but I'm not sure how I'd create a user list for it. Maybe > something as simple as having an email-address as the access code and > searching for it in the archives. You need to secure all pages, not only some start pages. Links can spread fast, and soon some spider will follow the trail. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Apr 3 10:45:17 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: Mailing list archives? Questions... In-Reply-To: <200004031530.e33FUjZ25122@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Apr 2000, Hans Franke wrote: > Or another thing: maybe just copy only the real name part > into the archives and skip the address at all (remember > it's ["]name["]
) ? So you only need to come > up with generated names for users who don't use a name > part in the from header. Couldn't this be a solution ? > Address harvesters can't find usefull addresses, while, > as usual, the people show their face (name). Or is there > any reason to put up a mask ? The default spammode would list a header as such: To: classiccmp@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: Mailing list archives? Questions... From: "Hans Franke" Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 15:39:09 +1 In-reply-to: Organization: SIEMENS AG Reply-To: classiccmp@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx Sender: owner-classiccmp@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx The individual still has his/her name attached, just no email address... Aaron From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 3 13:00:03 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: Mailing list archives? Questions... In-Reply-To: References: <200004031530.e33FUjZ25122@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <200004031601.e33G13Z09459@mail2.siemens.de> > > Or another thing: maybe just copy only the real name part > > into the archives and skip the address at all (remember > > it's ["]name["]
) ? So you only need to come > > up with generated names for users who don't use a name > > part in the from header. Couldn't this be a solution ? > > Address harvesters can't find usefull addresses, while, > > as usual, the people show their face (name). Or is there > > any reason to put up a mask ? > The default spammode would list a header as such: > To: classiccmp@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: Re: Mailing list archives? Questions... > From: "Hans Franke" > Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 15:39:09 +1 > In-reply-to: > > Organization: SIEMENS AG > Reply-To: classiccmp@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx > Sender: owner-classiccmp@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx > The individual still has his/her name attached, just no email address... Well, I'm still not a fan of it, but the solution is acceptable. Thank you Servus Hans -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Sun Apr 2 13:44:15 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: Acorn A4 website? References: Message-ID: <009a01bf9d88$10648740$d59593c3@proteus> Hi Tony, > Therefore, A5000 info might be useful, at least if you're not >trying to fix the thing... Actually, do you know of any sites which cover the A4000? I got one about 6 months back, and despite asking in the appropriate newsgroups have been unable to find any useful sites on the web thus far - all the ones I was pointed at were either no longer there or were of manufacturers of hardware for RiscPCs.... It's a nice machine, but of little use with nothing but the OS installed. :-( TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From ghldbrd at ccp.com Mon Apr 3 17:40:18 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: One of only 3 "enigma machine" stolen; A piece of ENIAC was upfor auction. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello Aaron On 03-Apr-00, you wrote: > I wouldn't be surprised if someone stole this model just to get enough > public awareness and hype behind it to make a killing selling their own > legitimate unit...can you imagine what a basic Enigma *could* bring on > eBay now, since people all over the world know how rare and priceless they > are now? (And how much they're worth: $100K!) > > We'll probably find out soon enough... > > Cheers, > > Aaron > > > > On Mon, 3 Apr 2000, Hans Franke wrote: > >>> An Enigma machine used by the Nazis to send coded messages during World War >>> Two, has been stolen from the code-cracking Station X at Bletchley Park, >>> Buckinghamshire. The machine, worth about ?100,000, is one of only three in >>> the world. It was brought to the UK after the war. >> >>> I bet it was somebody on this list who grabbed it! Fess up! ;-) >> >> Pssst. >> >>> I see it as another sign of how serious our hobby is becoming. Its valued >>> at 100,000 pounds! I wonder what it will fetch on ebay? ;-) >> >> Well, I don't know what configuration the Enigma in question had, >> but for a basic 3 or even 4 wheel type with no extensions etc. >> a real price is between 10 and 20 thausand Marks (~5-10 kUSD, >> 3 to 6 kGBP). Last I've seen on a German auction was a setup >> a 3 wheel machine, one add on box (realy rare) and a set of >> 3 additional wheels (exchange for code change). The lot was >> sold at 21 kDM (~10kUSD, ~6kGBP), and thats way below the >> named 100kGBP (~300kDM, ~150kUSD). Well, again a hyped up >> price. Of course, with the usual ignorants, eBay may rocket >> the price somewhat near the mentioned sum. >> >> And for the rarity, again it depends on the Enigma type, >> and especialy on the type of the add on boxes and even more >> what additional wheeles are available - as with computer >> collections, the additional stuff is more worth than the >> basic unit. For example, the Lorenz SZ42 is maybe priceless, >> since only two remaining units are known. But dozends of >> basic enigmas are still alife, and several are displayed >> in museums around the world. >> >> So, just forget about the media hype. >> >> Servus >> Hans >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen >> http://www.vintage.org/vcfe >> http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe >> > > Maybe all they wanted is secure internet encryption and didn't like PGP . . . I can just imagine -- an enigma tied into a net server somehwere. Gary Hildebrand From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Mon Apr 3 12:05:58 2000 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: Classic Computing Stops in the Chicago Area In-Reply-To: <20000329002926.A8346@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20000328190147.28498.qmail@hotmail.com> <20000329002926.A8346@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: Any info on Classic Computing haunts in the Chicago area? thanks. -Bob Bob Brown Saved by grace Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 3 14:13:22 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: One of only 3 "enigma machine" stolen; A piece of ENIAC was upfor auction. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200004031714.e33HENZ17541@mail2.siemens.de> > > I wouldn't be surprised if someone stole this model just to get enough > > public awareness and hype behind it to make a killing selling their own > > legitimate unit...can you imagine what a basic Enigma *could* bring on > > eBay now, since people all over the world know how rare and priceless they > > are now? (And how much they're worth: $100K!) > > We'll probably find out soon enough... > Maybe all they wanted is secure internet encryption and didn't like PGP . . > I can just imagine -- an enigma tied into a net server somehwere. ROTFL - well, maybe Philip schould jump in here ... And in fact, if we take the real end to end speed of our multi megabit networks, a enigma may still be fast enough :) Ciao H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Apr 3 12:23:51 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: Acorn A4 website? In-Reply-To: "Peter Pachla" "Re: Acorn A4 website?" (Apr 2, 19:44) References: <009a01bf9d88$10648740$d59593c3@proteus> Message-ID: <10004031823.ZM28019@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 2, 19:44, Peter Pachla wrote: > Actually, do you know of any sites which cover the A4000? > > I got one about 6 months back, and despite asking in the appropriate > newsgroups have been unable to find any useful sites on the web thus far - > all the ones I was pointed at were either no longer there or were of > manufacturers of hardware for RiscPCs.... > > It's a nice machine, but of little use with nothing but the OS installed. > :-( True :-) I've possibly got things that you might have a use for. It depends on what you're interested, obviously. What would you like to do? Is there any extra hardware (I expect not much, as an A4000 is baically an A3000 re-boxed)? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From elvey at hal.com Mon Apr 3 12:46:13 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: One of only 3 "enigma machine" stolen; A piece of ENIAC was upfor auction. In-Reply-To: <200004031714.e33HENZ17541@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <200004031746.KAA01010@civic.hal.com> Hi The bad thing about the machine being stolen, rare or not, is that know that the press has told everyone about it, no one will try to sell it on the open market. If it was stolen by some amateur or kid, they may destroy is rather than risk the chance of getting caught trying to sell it. If it was stolen by a professional, I'm sure he knows who to sell it to but it will be lost to some vault for the next 50 years. In either case, it will be lost. Dwight PS I also noted that while listening to some BBC news on cable, they talked quite a bit about the efforts to crack the German codes during the war but failed to even mention Alan Turing's name. I just wonder how many in Britain are embarrassed by how he was treated after the war once they realized the lives that were saved by his efforts. I know that I would feel some shame. From sipke at wxs.nl Mon Apr 3 13:01:57 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: One of only 3 "enigma machine" stolen; A piece of ENIAC was up for auction. References: <000001bf9d21$cd693910$013da8c0@Corellian> Message-ID: <003101bf9d96$b44773a0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> >----- Original Message ----- >From: John Lewczyk >To: >Sent: Monday, April 03, 2000 6:05 AM >Subject: One of only 3 "enigma machine" stolen; A piece of ENIAC was up for auction. >http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_698000/698804.stm >An Enigma machine used by the Nazis to send coded messages during World War >Two, has been stolen from the code-cracking Station X at Bletchley Park, >Buckinghamshire. The machine, worth about ?100,000, is one of only three in >the world. It was brought to the UK after the war. >I bet it was somebody on this list who grabbed it! Fess up! ;-) >I see it as another sign of how serious our hobby is becoming. Its valued >at 100,000 pounds! I wonder what it will fetch on ebay? ;-) Also sounds a bit like an April Foolsday Prank (Saturday was the day of the crime) Hmmm. If ever on sale at Ebay be prepared to fork out another 100K pounds for the shipping ! Sipke From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 3 15:10:54 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: One of only 3 "enigma machine" stolen; A piece of ENIAC was up for auction. In-Reply-To: <003101bf9d96$b44773a0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <200004031811.e33IBtZ28688@mail2.siemens.de> > >I see it as another sign of how serious our hobby is becoming. Its valued > >at 100,000 pounds! I wonder what it will fetch on ebay? ;-) > Also sounds a bit like an April Foolsday Prank (Saturday was the day of the > crime) > Hmmm. If ever on sale at Ebay be prepared to fork out another 100K pounds > for the shipping ! Why ? Do they include an U-Boot ? ;) Hans -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon Apr 3 13:25:31 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: One of only 3 "enigma machine" stolen; A piece of ENIAC was up for auction. In-Reply-To: <200004031201.IAA04727@lexington.ioa.net> from "Technoid@cheta.net" at "Apr 3, 2000 07:58:33 am" Message-ID: <200004031825.OAA18807@bg-tc-ppp583.monmouth.com> > In <000001bf9d21$cd693910$013da8c0@Corellian>, on 04/03/00 > at 07:58 AM, "John Lewczyk" said: > > >I bet it was somebody on this list who grabbed it! Fess up! ;-) > > I've got an alibi in the logs on my Sun box. It will say I have booted > several times and failed to log on as root several dozen times due to > password authentication errors. > > Oh please oh please will someone help me mount this sunos drive on my > clone. The closest I have gotten is ''io error - cannot mount xxxxxxxx'' > or 'invalid option for filesystem UFS'. > > I am trying to mount a sunos 5.4 scsi drive on my clone running solaris 7 > x86. It is killing me. I have not slept in three days more or less. 1. What's the /etc/vfstab entry for the Sun 5.4 SCSI. 2. Did you do boot -r on the Solaris 7 bos to make sure it makes the major and minor device entries in /dev. 3. I'm not sure if the file systems are 100% compatible since v7 is a 64 bit filesystem and 2.5 is the last 32 bit version. Also, are we possibly running in to a byte swaping issue here? Bill From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 3 12:58:40 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: Santee swap serendipity In-Reply-To: <200004030447.VAA09546@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Apr 2, 0 09:47:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1834 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000403/79ed13c9/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 3 13:13:31 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: Mailing list archives? Questions... In-Reply-To: (message from Mike Ford on Sun, 2 Apr 2000 22:06:35 -0700) References: Message-ID: <20000403181331.23110.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Given the recent floppy thread what we need are summaries, not archives. Since no one is going to write summaries, and even if someone did, they probably wouldn't have enough detail to be good for searching, I have to disagree. We do need archives. From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 3 14:41:34 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: Mailing list archives? Questions... In-Reply-To: <20000403181331.23110.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 3 Apr 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > > Given the recent floppy thread what we need are summaries, not archives. > > Since no one is going to write summaries, and even if someone did, they > probably wouldn't have enough detail to be good for searching, I have to > disagree. We do need archives. What is needed s a clear concise floppy FAQ! It would put all this to bed once and for all and insure the knowledgebase stays intact. Allison From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Apr 3 15:09:59 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: Santee swap serendipity In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Apr 3, 0 06:58:40 pm" Message-ID: <200004032010.NAA09854@oa.ptloma.edu> ::Well, as ever I'd start by checking the power supply lines. Open up the ::Sinclair and look for +5V on the output of the 7805 regulator (the large ::heatsink is grounded IIRC). Or look for it on the power pins of the ROM ::or RAMs (standard corner-pin power connections). You mains adapter may ::not be able to provide sufficient current, so the 5V line may be too low ::on-load. Problem -- this thing is impossible to open! I only found two screws on the bottom and that seems to open only half -- the other side is quite stuck and I don't want to break the case. Where are the remaining things keeping the case closed? ::After that, I'd assume that the computer is working to some extent. Are ::you sure this is the US version, outputing 525 lines on VHF channel 3 (or ::4?) ? Have you tried retuning the TV to the other of those 2 channels? Yup, and nothing. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- ** COMMODORE 64 BASIC V2 ** 64K RAM SYSTEM 38911 BASIC BYTES FREE ---------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 3 15:21:25 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: Santee swap serendipity In-Reply-To: <200004032010.NAA09854@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Apr 3, 0 01:09:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 582 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000403/9d0fe22c/attachment.ksh From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Apr 3 14:13:44 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: Dayton Computerfest finds Message-ID: <20000403191344.1241.qmail@web617.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > --- Mike Ford wrote: > > >> > > So... does anyone out there have a Mac "null-modem" cable... > > > > How is this cable different fromAAAIcAAACIAAAAiQAA > > AIoAAACLAAAAjAAAAI0AAACOAAAAjwAAAJAAAACRAAAAkgAAAJMAAACUAAAA > > lQAAAJYAAACXAAAAmAAAAJkAAACaAAAAmwAAAJwAAACdAAAAngAAAJ8AAACg > > AAAAoQAAAKIAAACjAAAApAAAAKUAAACmAAAAp > > Say what?!? > > -ethan I don't know why this resurfaced (I didn't resend it myself), but since it did, I can provide two follow-up comments on it... 1) The source of the garbage appears to be Yahoo Mail! corrupting random messages in my inboxes. As stuff moves in, I sort it into several categories. I'll read a message one minute, then when new stuff comes in, a formerly legible message garbles in the middle and the end is a message that I had previously deleted. I am now in the process of emptying all of my archival messages from Yahoo before I contact their tech support, lest their "helpful" and "qualified" individuals wipe my mailboxes from the face of the earth in an attempt to root out the cause of the corruption. 2) I did finally get a working cable for my QuickTake 150 and MacIIci. Thanks to all who provided information and advice. It's not a great camera, but for $35, it's a camera I've used before and it's better than nothing. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Apr 3 17:06:00 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: Archives are now online Message-ID: Hi all, I spent my lunch break finishing the configuration for the mailing list archives. Due to underwhelming popular vote, the email addresses of posters have been xxx'd out; if you really want your email address to appear with your messages in the archive, you'll have to append it to your sig. The URL to access the archives, at this moment, is: http://www.retrobytes.org/classiccmp/ For the moment, it is a pretty plain setup. The archive is split into separate pages of 75 messages each (my only complaint with other archives: it takes *way* too long to load a 500k archive list every time!) and can be viewed as sorted by date (default page), thread, and author. Soon enough, I hope to add a search engine and better browsing manager...though I don't know when I'll get the time. If anone on the list is a Glimpse expert and has a little time, I'd be happy to set you up a login account... :) Enjoy! Aaron From CordaAJ at nswc.navy.mil Mon Apr 3 17:11:13 2000 From: CordaAJ at nswc.navy.mil (Corda Albert J DLVA) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: One of only 3 "enigma machine" stolen; A piece of ENIAC was u p for auction. Message-ID: <7B4C28C84831D211BFA200805F9F34561A8E4D@nswcdlvaex04.nswc.navy.mil> Interestingly enough, I ran across an Enigma machine at a hamfest in MD. last year. The gentleman had it on a table amidst a bunch of WWII radio gear. I did a doubletake when I saw it (I only recognized it because I've seen the one in the Smithsonian). It was missing the encoder wheels, and I seem to remember that he wanted somewhere around $7K for it. I'm pretty certain he didn't sell it, and I haven't seen it at any hamfests since, but perhaps he'll have it there again this year. -al- > -----Original Message----- > From: Hans Franke [mailto:Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de] > Sent: Monday, April 03, 2000 4:12 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: One of only 3 "enigma machine" stolen; A piece > of ENIAC was > up for auction. > > > > > >I see it as another sign of how serious our hobby is > becoming. Its valued > > >at 100,000 pounds! I wonder what it will fetch on ebay? ;-) > > > Also sounds a bit like an April Foolsday Prank (Saturday > was the day of the > > crime) > > > Hmmm. If ever on sale at Ebay be prepared to fork out > another 100K pounds > > for the shipping ! > > Why ? Do they include an U-Boot ? > > ;) > Hans > > -- > VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen > http://www.vintage.org/vcfe > http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe > From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Mon Apr 3 17:16:17 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: One of only 3 "enigma machine" stolen; A piece of ENIAC was up for auction. In-Reply-To: <200004031218.e33CIE315817@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <001601bf9dba$3c304ee0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> > An Enigma machine used by the Nazis to send coded messages during World War > Two, has been stolen from the code-cracking Station X at Bletchley Park, > Buckinghamshire. The machine, worth about ?100,000, is one of only three in > the world. It was brought to the UK after the war. > I bet it was somebody on this list who grabbed it! Fess up! ;-) FYI, and I haven't read through all of this tread yet, ... There is someone who actually brought a near replica to the MIT swap meet a couple of years ago. I was lucky enough to see it, open the doors, push a key, etc. Turns out that the base machine was produced by someone in Europe (the Swiss?) for Years before the war. There were supposedly thousands (hundreds?) produced for use outside that of the military. The thing that made the Nazi's Unique was the rotor wiring (again, i'm just catching up if this was posted already, Hans?). The MIT Flea machine was I think in the $2000 range, but memory fades. You can see a lot of good pictures of for sale one at: 'Tom Perera - W1TP' http://w1tp.com/mcpu.htm but he says it's been sold by now. First impressions on seeing such a thing >For Sale< are thrilling, but be warned that Enigma looking things need not be Enigmas of folklore, esp. w/o the rotors. John A. From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Apr 3 17:48:33 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: Mailing list archives? Questions... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've been wondering about this, actually. Wasn't there talk of putting a FAQ together a couple of years ago? Was anything ever done on it? I'd be happy to help compile/edit a faq for the list, if anyone else is interested in tackling this. It just seems that the same questions (and arguments) have been popping up every few months for years. Anyone who's interested in doing this, go ahead and email me privately. Cheers, Aaron On Mon, 3 Apr 2000 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > On 3 Apr 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > > > > Given the recent floppy thread what we need are summaries, not archives. > > > > Since no one is going to write summaries, and even if someone did, they > > probably wouldn't have enough detail to be good for searching, I have to > > disagree. We do need archives. > > > What is needed s a clear concise floppy FAQ! It would put all this to bed > once and for all and insure the knowledgebase stays intact. > > > Allison > From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 3 18:52:39 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: Just the FAQs' (was: Re: Mailing list archives? Questions...) In-Reply-To: from "Aaron Christopher Finney" at Apr 03, 2000 03:48:33 PM Message-ID: <200004032352.QAA08543@shell1.aracnet.com> > On Mon, 3 Apr 2000 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > > On 3 Apr 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > > > > > > Given the recent floppy thread what we need are summaries, not archives. > > > > > > Since no one is going to write summaries, and even if someone did, they > > > probably wouldn't have enough detail to be good for searching, I have to > > > disagree. We do need archives. > > > > > > What is needed s a clear concise floppy FAQ! It would put all this to bed > > once and for all and insure the knowledgebase stays intact. > > > > > > Allison > > > > I've been wondering about this, actually. Wasn't there talk of putting a > FAQ together a couple of years ago? Was anything ever done on it? > > I'd be happy to help compile/edit a faq for the list, if anyone else is > interested in tackling this. > > It just seems that the same questions (and arguments) have been popping up > every few months for years. Anyone who's interested in doing this, go > ahead and email me privately. > > Cheers, > > Aaron > > I think there are a couple things that are needed. One is a site that holds and or provides pointers to the FAQ's, the other is some serious FAQ writing/updating. The perfect example is the MicroVAX FAQ. It's *so* out of date in some parts that it isn't funny. While some things just need found and or updated, others really should be written up. Is there any site out there that you can go to select the manufacturer/type computer you're interested in, and then have it point you were you want to go? For example, I go to this hypothetical site, and select Apple ][ and it points me to the various Apple ][ FAQ's and other sources of info. Then I select PDP-8's and it sends me to the PDP-8 FAQ and sites with info on the PDP-8. I guess what I'm saying is we need a sort of manually done Yahoo for classic computer info. A lot of the info is out there, but finding it can be a nightmare! FAQ's should be collected and kept locally on the site. This is some of what I was trying to do with my web site, but I never seem to find time to work on it. Probably the way to do it would be to publish a layout boilerplate, and then have different people take different platforms and put together the info on where to find the info. Then have other people look over that and see if they know of additional info. Zane From red at bears.org Mon Apr 3 19:30:20 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: One of only 3 "enigma machine" stolen; A piece of ENIAC was up for auction. In-Reply-To: <200004031201.IAA04727@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Apr 2000 Technoid@cheta.net wrote: > I am trying to mount a sunos 5.4 scsi drive on my clone running solaris 7 > x86. It is killing me. I have not slept in three days more or less. What is the procedure you have used thus far? ok r. From vaxman at uswest.net Mon Apr 3 19:32:45 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: One of only 3 "enigma machine" stolen; A piece of ENIAC was up for auction. In-Reply-To: <200004031201.IAA04727@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: Hi Jeffrey, The file system formats are probably different, and you won't be able to mount the drive. Your best bet is to just attach the drive, and read the RAW device with a quick/dirty C program that looks for the string "root:abcdefghijklm:0:0:" and replaces it with "root::0:0:abcdefghijklm" The basic idea is to replace the encrypted password with either nothing (if allowed) or an encrypted password you know. Good luck clint On Mon, 3 Apr 2000 Technoid@cheta.net wrote: > In <000001bf9d21$cd693910$013da8c0@Corellian>, on 04/03/00 > at 07:58 AM, "John Lewczyk" said: > > >I bet it was somebody on this list who grabbed it! Fess up! ;-) > > I've got an alibi in the logs on my Sun box. It will say I have booted > several times and failed to log on as root several dozen times due to > password authentication errors. > > Oh please oh please will someone help me mount this sunos drive on my > clone. The closest I have gotten is ''io error - cannot mount xxxxxxxx'' > or 'invalid option for filesystem UFS'. > > I am trying to mount a sunos 5.4 scsi drive on my clone running solaris 7 > x86. It is killing me. I have not slept in three days more or less. > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jeffrey S. Worley > Technical Services > Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. > 1979B Hendersonville Road > Asheville, NC 28803 > 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days > 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax > Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? > Technoid@Cheta.net > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > From lemay at cs.umn.edu Mon Apr 3 19:39:04 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: some DEC finds Message-ID: <200004040039.TAA06089@caesar.cs.umn.edu> I just picked up a DEC PDP-8/L cpu unit, someone had already taken it out of the rack for me. How can i determine if I have a complete cpu? most of the cards are present, and there are 3 cables coming from the unit, each with a centronics connector at the end. There is a rack of mystery DEC equipment, lots of green G series boards, etc. At the top of the rack is an array of lights, and I found a plastic panel that obviously was supposed to be over those lights. I've taken a photo of the panel, hopefully someone can identify it for me. Other stuff in the rack is on wirewrap backplanes, and the flip chips are plugged in from the bottom, i'm guessing this stuff goes with the 8/L cpu. http://www-users.itlabs.umn.edu/~lemay/panel.jpg We also grabbed the top half of a teletype 33 ASR for parts, and plan to return with a truck tomorrow for a complete Teletype 33 ASR. There is still a complete PDP 11/20 rack system, with dectape, decpack, and possibly other stuff in addition to the cpu unit itself. My friend will try to rescue this, if we can borrow a pickup truck. Other stuff out on the loading dock includes a DecScope, 2 DecWriter II, 1 DecWriter III, 1 Decprinter. I've contacted the person who is discarding this stuff, to see if anything else is available, such as manuals or dectape. By the way, i'm not planning to take the printers I just mentioned, I just dont have much storage space. Since this is the first 8/L system I've seen in person, any help in determining if i have a complete system would be appreciated. Also, what are those 3 centronix connectors for (connections to expansion units in that other rack maybe?) and how can I connect a terminal or something to make this thing a bit more usable? -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu From vaxman at uswest.net Mon Apr 3 19:34:58 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: Archives are now online In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Aaron! On Mon, 3 Apr 2000, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > Hi all, > > I spent my lunch break finishing the configuration for the mailing list > archives. Due to underwhelming popular vote, the email addresses of > posters have been xxx'd out; if you really want your email address to > appear with your messages in the archive, you'll have to append it to your > sig. > > The URL to access the archives, at this moment, is: > > http://www.retrobytes.org/classiccmp/ > > > For the moment, it is a pretty plain setup. The archive is split into > separate pages of 75 messages each (my only complaint with other archives: > it takes *way* too long to load a 500k archive list every time!) and can > be viewed as sorted by date (default page), thread, and author. > > Soon enough, I hope to add a search engine and better browsing > manager...though I don't know when I'll get the time. If anone on the list > is a Glimpse expert and has a little time, I'd be happy to set you up a > login account... :) > > Enjoy! > > Aaron > > > From spc at armigeron.com Mon Apr 3 20:13:22 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: One of only 3 "enigma machine" stolen; A piece of ENIAC was up for auction. In-Reply-To: from "Clint Wolff (VAX collector)" at Apr 03, 2000 06:32:45 PM Message-ID: <200004040113.VAA08540@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great "Clint Wolff (VAX collector)" once stated: > > > Hi Jeffrey, > > The file system formats are probably different, and you won't be able > to mount the drive. > > Your best bet is to just attach the drive, and read the RAW device with > a quick/dirty C program that looks for the string > > "root:abcdefghijklm:0:0:" and replaces it with > "root::0:0:abcdefghijklm" > > The basic idea is to replace the encrypted password with either nothing > (if allowed) or an encrypted password you know. If you do this, there are several things to keep in mind: 1. The password format is: userid : password : uid : gid : real name : directory : shell (of course, there are no spaces, one entry per line). If you do that, you need to make sure that the replacement string is the same size as the original string else you may not be able to log in at all. 2. The root account is ALWAYS the first one in the file (on the one occasion it wasn't the system behaved very oddly). So you can increase the speed of the search by checking for ``root:'' at the beginning of each disk block and going from there. -spc (And remember---always remember to mount a scratch monkey ... ) From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Apr 3 20:26:52 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: One of only 3 "enigma machine" stolen; A piece of ENIAC was up for auction. References: <000001bf9d21$cd693910$013da8c0@Corellian> <003101bf9d96$b44773a0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <003b01bf9dd4$dbe66400$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sipke de Wal" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2000 3:31 AM Subject: Re: One of only 3 "enigma machine" stolen; A piece of ENIAC was up for auction. > Also sounds a bit like an April Foolsday Prank (Saturday was the day of the > crime) Interesting possibility. Let's hope so. > Hmmm. If ever on sale at Ebay be prepared to fork out another 100K pounds > for the shipping ! Eh? It's the size of a typewriter, so shipping would seem to be fairly insignificant on such a size/weight of item. Now if it was a Bombe.......... Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Apr 3 21:27:15 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: some DEC finds Message-ID: <000403222715.22400e4a@trailing-edge.com> >There is a rack of mystery DEC equipment, lots of green G series >boards, etc. At the top of the rack is an array of lights, and >I found a plastic panel that obviously was supposed to be over those >lights. I've taken a photo of the panel, hopefully someone can >identify it for me. Other stuff in the rack is on wirewrap backplanes, >and the flip chips are plugged in from the bottom, i'm guessing this >stuff goes with the 8/L cpu. http://www-users.itlabs.umn.edu/~lemay/panel.jpg Seeing as how there's 7 lights for track address bits on the panel (implying up to 128 tracks) and there's a big sticker saying "DF:" on the bottom, I'm going to hazard a guess that this is a status panel for a RF08 or RF11 disk controller. I'm leaning towards RF11, as the data width on the panel appears to be 16 bits. (Maybe the same panel was used on both the RF11 and RF08... I dunno.) The RF11 runs the RS11 fixed-head disk, 128 cylinders * 8 blocks per cylinder for 1024 512-byte blocks in total. The capacity in 12-bit-word mode is likely different. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Apr 3 22:45:50 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: OT: Source of IDE Drives for Napster Hackers Message-ID: Just got this in my mailbox...www.hitechcafe.com has 540meg IDE drives for laptops at $25 a piece. Cheers, Aaron From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 3 23:38:09 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: OT: Source of IDE Drives for Napster Hackers In-Reply-To: from "Aaron Christopher Finney" at Apr 03, 2000 08:45:50 PM Message-ID: <200004040438.VAA32405@shell1.aracnet.com> > > Just got this in my mailbox...www.hitechcafe.com has 540meg IDE drives for > laptops at $25 a piece. > > Cheers, > > Aaron > Erm? I assume you mean iOpener not Napster? At least I *think* Napster is some kind of audio streaming software. If not, what is Napster? For all that goes, in either case, what is Napster? Zane From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Mon Apr 3 23:44:21 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: OT: Source of IDE Drives for Napster Hackers In-Reply-To: ; from Aaron Christopher Finney on Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 08:45:50PM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20000403214421.B717@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 08:45:50PM -0700, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > Just got this in my mailbox...www.hitechcafe.com has 540meg IDE drives for > laptops at $25 a piece. You mean for iOpener hackers right? :-) -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Apr 3 23:52:13 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: OT: Source of IDE Drives for *iOpener* Hackers In-Reply-To: <20000403214421.B717@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> Message-ID: Crap...sorry. Indeed, iOpener is what I meant. I just had a long discussion about Napster with a friend of mine and I guess I have it stuck in my head. (Napster is the distributed member-network system for sharing MP3 files) Aaron On Mon, 3 Apr 2000, Shawn T. Rutledge wrote: > On Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 08:45:50PM -0700, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > > Just got this in my mailbox...www.hitechcafe.com has 540meg IDE drives for > > laptops at $25 a piece. > > You mean for iOpener hackers right? :-) > > -- > _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud > (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com > __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ > Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 > From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Tue Apr 4 00:19:29 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: OT: Source of IDE Drives for Napster Hackers In-Reply-To: <200004040438.VAA32405@shell1.aracnet.com>; from healyzh@aracnet.com on Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 09:38:09PM -0700 References: <200004040438.VAA32405@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20000403221929.C717@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 09:38:09PM -0700, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > If not, what is Napster? For all that goes, in either case, what is > Napster? Napster is a system of distributing MP3's. Every client is also a server... the user can select which of his own files to share just for the duration of the session while he keeps the client running. It makes it harder to get caught exchanging the copyrighted kind, because the "servers" come and go so fast. -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Apr 4 08:04:13 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: One of only 3 "enigma machine" stolen; A piece of ENIAC was up for auction. In-Reply-To: <001601bf9dba$3c304ee0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> References: <200004031218.e33CIE315817@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <200004041105.e34B5Dd07153@mail2.siemens.de> > > An Enigma machine used by the Nazis to send coded messages during World > > War Two, has been stolen from the code-cracking Station X at Bletchley Park, > > Buckinghamshire. The machine, worth about £100,000, is one of only three > > in the world. It was brought to the UK after the war. > FYI, and I haven't read through all of this tread yet, ... > There is someone who actually brought a near replica > to the MIT swap meet a couple of years ago. > I was lucky enough to see it, open the doors, push a > key, etc. > Turns out that the base machine was produced by someone > in Europe (the Swiss?) for Years before the war. There > were supposedly thousands (hundreds?) produced for use > outside that of the military. The thing that made the Nazi's > Unique was the rotor wiring (again, i'm just catching up > if this was posted already, Hans?). Well, mostly true. AFAIK the enigma series was a complete new design developed in Germany in the late 20's and put into service in 1930 for military and German embasys. There has been no prior swiss design. But of course there have been en/decryption machines of similar basic design (i.e. using wheels and gears). The Enigma code was based on 4 parts: a) The Wheels, the most esential part b) The Wheelposition - each of the wheels could be put on each position c) The Patch Panel - a whireing to interchange the code lines d) The Start Position. Prior to encoding each of this parameters has to be set. The start positions have been changed acording to a code tabel assigned individual for each station, sometimes even each message did use a different start position. Patch panel and wheel position have been changed in predefind intervals, while wheels have not been exchanged often - please not that these behaviours did change durnig the war. Until the war only 3 wheel types where produced. Before the polish 'borrowing', the machine structure has been a total secret and not knowing about the basic components and design a decoding was strictly impossible (at this time). In 1939 the British did know about the structure and about a set of wheels (AFAIK less than 6) and the general code scheme and the Warschau embasy code scheme (code scheme == setings and algorythm to change them according to message, date and sender). The wheels in question have been put out of service imidiate and the general code scheme has NOT been changed, just the interpretation. The Warschau table was of course irrelevant. This took several month, until all German dependancies have been changed (Remember, the production was top secret and so the capacity to produce wheels was limited). A short time later the 4 wheel system was introduced - first for military only use. Due their luck (and the Polish 'borrowing') the Britisch now knew about the machines structure and the possibilities, so they had 'only' to generate possible setings and check them. Of course they where able to gather more informations about code schemes due spys and traitors, so cracking was a posibility. Also code scheme changes where often initiated due coded messages in special formats - so cracking these messaged did help to go around. Of course German counter inteligence did not rely soly on the basic machines - as time advanced, more add on coders have been developed. The Enigma coded messages have been send thru other devices with different schemes and settings. The first of these add ons where to be 'conected' manuals, say one had to type it in again, later on they where connected due the patch panel and eventualy the Enigma did get special output lines for add ons. Especialy for the U-Boot fleet several extraordinary machines have been designed. Due their long of port time additional security was a must. For the records, Bletchley Park did not decode _all_ variants used during the war - but they did a prety good job for most of the stuff. The key was luck and a lot of good work. The Swiss come into this only way after the war, when they did build teir NEMA system, a direct follow up design of the Enigma, enhanced and looking complete different. They also sold a lot of machines of this design to other countries. But not only the Swiss did 'clone' the design - almost any country who could get hands on one of the machines did clone them (keep in mind that Germany did supply them until some degree to alies). Especialy in South America, Enigmas derivates have been in une until the late 70s. East European countries did use electromechanical designs also until the mid 70s to early 80s, but beside the basic principle these machines had nothing in common with their ancessor. > 'Tom Perera - W1TP' http://w1tp.com/mcpu.htm Cute page, and most stuff correct and very fine done - just one thing: the Polish did never 'break' the code - they did only raid the German embasy in Warschau and got a machine for about 3 days ... The time German forces needed to capture the city. They dismanteled the machine and did send all possible information to Britain. The machine eventualy was recovered by German troops. > First impressions on seeing such a thing >For Sale< are > thrilling, but be warned that Enigma looking things > need not be Enigmas of folklore, esp. w/o the rotors. True, but still an interesting theme to search for. Althou it was mandatory for German coding stations to destroy the equipment in a way that it cant be recognized a lot of original German machines did survive the number directly after the war is said to be >1500 of >25,000 produced units. More than some microcomputers had ever produced :) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From jpl15 at netcom.com Tue Apr 4 09:04:28 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: One of only 3 "enigma machine" stolen; A piece of ENIAC was up for auction. In-Reply-To: <200004041105.e34B5Dd07153@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: A note to the 'Enigma' thread: I have a book in my library called "The Enigma War" subtitled 'The inside story of the German Enigma codes and how the Allies broke them' by Jozef Garlinski, [Charles Scribner's Sons, New York 1979]. Garlinski was a Polish General, and writes the book from that viewpoint. I got it mainly for the many plates and drawings of the various machines, as well as a few shots of Bletchly Park and Colossus I have not seen elsewhere. The devices covered go from the 1400's (not a typo) to a photo of something called an MC-750 which looks like 70's - 80s vintage. I read this a while ago and seemed like a lot of Polo-centric ranting, but this thread has cast the text in a different light. I would recommend using one of the various used book finding web services... it was reprinted a bunch of times so there's likely to be quite a few out there. Very cool pictures, BTW, and a schematic of a three-wheel Enigma. Cheers John From chris at mainecoon.com Tue Apr 4 09:57:09 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:32 2005 Subject: OT:decoding enigma (was Re: One of only 3 "enigma machine" stolen; A piece of ENIAC was up for auction.) References: <200004031218.e33CIE315817@mail2.siemens.de> <200004041105.e34B5Dd07153@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <38EA02C5.97A6426F@mainecoon.com> Hans Franke wrote: > For the records, Bletchley Park did not decode _all_ variants > used during the war - but they did a prety good job for most > of the stuff. The key was luck and a lot of good work. And some moderate sloppyness in traffic handling by the German command. Different code schemes were used for different services, with perterbation of the code schemes based on sensitivitiy. As a consequence, the code schemes for the U-boat fleet were changed quite often, while the code scheme used for harbor dispatches remained static for prolonged periods of time. Not surprisingly, harbor messages were decoded with little trouble but offered little useful intelligence. Unfortunatly, there were occasional messages which were shotgunned to multiple services, which required encoding the same message under different code schemes. Since the harbor code was compromised for long periods of time, it provided the plaintext required for the comparative cryptanalysis needed to reach the point where traffic for other services could be "routinely" read. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Tue Apr 4 12:11:50 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: Unknown DEC stuff and a few unknown ICs Message-ID: <20000404171150.93455.qmail@hotmail.com> Hi, I can't figure out what the heck these two Intersil chips are; one is a 6003 and the other is an 5110. Also, I have these qbus boards from Sky Computer that I have no clue what they are; they're all quad height (assuming that means they have four connectors). They are Skywar-Q-A-03, Skywar-Q-B-03, and Skydpmem-Q-02. Will J ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Apr 4 15:39:07 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: OT Paging for François In-Reply-To: <38EA02C5.97A6426F@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <200004041840.e34Ie8V29671@mail2.siemens.de> Sorry for using this medium - just I got no other idea left to contact him. Does anybody have a valid mail address, or other mean of contact for Francois ? Las known mail address: fauradon@pclink.com His web pages at http://www.pclink.com/fauradon/ are still accessible. Thank you Hans -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Mon Apr 3 22:25:23 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: Santee swap serendipity References: Message-ID: <000001bf9e67$2eed7fc0$8ee993c3@proteus> Hi Tony, <"Phono" plugs> > Yep, very common for audio over here.... Also surprisingly common on domestic video equipment - I've seen a number of machines (Video8 and S-VHS) where the manufacturers have used a pair of phono jacks for L/R audio and a third for composite video. >....although we also use DIN plugs on consumer-grade stuff.... Thankfully they seem to have gradually fallen out of favour in recent years, I *HATE* wiring the damn things up! >....Or 'UHF' connectors (our name for the PL259/SO239 connectors).... I've always thought calling those things "UHF" connectors is somewhat ridiculous - after all, they're only good to 200MHz or so which is hardly UHF territory. > Older video equipment may have used DIN connectors for audio and >video. Quite so. Many, if not all, of the JVC VCRs which Ferguson produced under licence as "Videostar" machines had the usual BNC/SCART sockets replaced with DIN sockets. :-( TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Mon Apr 3 22:28:35 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: Santee swap serendipity References: <200004032010.NAA09854@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <000101bf9e67$2fb6ea40$8ee993c3@proteus> Hi, > Problem -- this thing is impossible to open! I only found two >screws on the bottom and that seems to open only half.... >....Where are the remaining things keeping the case closed? Carefully peel up the rubber "feet" on the half which refuses to open, you should find a couple of screws hiding under them. Sinclair used this trick on the ZX-81 and the Spectrun too I think. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net Tue Apr 4 14:41:06 2000 From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (FBA) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_OT_Paging_for_Fran=E7ois?= Message-ID: <003001bf9e6d$bc17e650$3c37d986@fauradon.beckman.com> I'm still here Changed ISP Sorry New e-mail: fauradon@mn.mediaone.net new web: http://people.mn.mediaone.net/fauradon -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, April 04, 2000 2:22 PM Subject: OT Paging for Fran?ois >Sorry for using this medium - just I got no other idea >left to contact him. > >Does anybody have a valid mail address, or other mean >of contact for Francois ? >Las known mail address: fauradon@pclink.com >His web pages at http://www.pclink.com/fauradon/ >are still accessible. > >Thank you >Hans > >-- >VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen >http://www.vintage.org/vcfe >http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue Apr 4 15:11:32 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: DEC hardware questions Message-ID: <200004042011.PAA09147@caesar.cs.umn.edu> A RP03 i'm told is a multi-platter drive for a PDP11. Does anyone know anything else about it? How much storage are we talking about, compared to an RK05? Can RK05's from a PDP11 system be used on a PDP8? Do i need to find special disk cartridges? -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue Apr 4 15:13:18 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: VAX 11/730 available Message-ID: <200004042013.PAA09162@caesar.cs.umn.edu> There is a VAX 11/730 available in Minneapolis. Obviously i'm not shipping it, or having anything to do with it. if you want it, and can come tpick it up in minneapolis, i can put you in contact with the person who has it. Otherwise, i will of course attempt to grab any useful boards and such before it goes to the recyclers. At that time, i would then post what is available to the list. -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 4 15:36:51 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: Santee swap serendipity In-Reply-To: <000001bf9e67$2eed7fc0$8ee993c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Apr 4, 0 04:25:23 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1813 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000404/4d5bcd5e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 4 15:38:24 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: Santee swap serendipity In-Reply-To: <000101bf9e67$2fb6ea40$8ee993c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Apr 4, 0 04:28:35 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 713 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000404/823c8f49/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 4 15:43:31 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: DEC hardware questions In-Reply-To: <200004042011.PAA09147@caesar.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Apr 4, 0 03:11:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 578 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000404/88f5de53/attachment.ksh From rivie at teraglobal.com Tue Apr 4 16:27:01 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: DEC hardware questions In-Reply-To: <200004042011.PAA09147@caesar.cs.umn.edu> References: <200004042011.PAA09147@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: >Can RK05's from a PDP11 system be used on a PDP8? Do i need to find >special disk cartridges? You need a special disk cartridge. Attached to the bottom of the disk is a short metal cylinder with slots in it. These slots define the sectors on the disk. PDP-8 cartridges use 16-sector disks while PDP-11 cartridges use (IIRC) 12-sector disks. -- Roger Ivie TeraGlobal Communications Corporation 1750 North Research Park Way North Logan, UT 84341 Phone: (435)787-0555 Fax: (435)787-0516 From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Tue Apr 4 16:27:19 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: Santee swap serendipity In-Reply-To: ; from Tony Duell on Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 09:36:51PM +0100 References: <000001bf9e67$2eed7fc0$8ee993c3@proteus> Message-ID: <20000404142717.C8435@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 09:36:51PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > >....although we also use DIN plugs on consumer-grade stuff.... > > > > Thankfully they seem to have gradually fallen out of favour in recent years, > > I *HATE* wiring the damn things up! > > There's only one thing worse than wiring up a DIN plug. And that's wiring > up a mini-DIN plug. Those darn things are impossible to wire without > melting the plug, melting the cable, and burning your fingers. And the > connector itself is hardly good... No kidding. I made the mistake of trying to use them for the connection of my packet TNC to one of my radios. Oddly enough it actually works, but it's touchy - has to be fully seated and if I bump it a little it loses contact on one pin. I'm going to rewire it with a fullsize DIN with the standard TNC pinout one of these days. Something to hold the connector while you solder it is indispensible; like one of those two- armed alligator-clip holder thingies from Radio Shack. Or a hemostat, suitably propped up by other pieces of debris on your workbench. Also had to fabricate an ADB cable a while back because they are hard to find (I still have no idea where to get them locally, just on ebay). Fry's had the connectors and I used 4-wire telephone cable. It was for a touchscreen so didn't have to be flexible. Then I discovered that an svideo cable has the same pinout, so maybe it could double for an ADB cable. I haven't tried it yet. (Since the Mac is an LCIII we are back on topic now, cool!) The pins on the mini-DINs are actually little tubes but I've yet to use wire fine enough to fit inside the tube for soldering; the phone wire had to be soldered onto the outside of the tube, making it even harder than it's supposed to be. First you get solder on both the wire and the tube, then touch the wire to the side and simultaneously reheat it with the soldering iron. Since both hands are tied up there is no way to apply more solder while doing this. Needless to say a piece of shrink tubing over each wire is a necessity afterwards; and of course I always forget to put it on the wires in advance, and have to do the job twice. (But I do that with all connectors; there's always some sleeve or something that has to go on first, and I nearly always forget it the first time.) -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From rivie at teraglobal.com Tue Apr 4 16:31:20 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: DEC hardware questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Of course if you happen to have an RK05f (twice the capacity but with a >fixed pack that is only changed by a service engineer/hacker), you do >need change the pack if you move it between a PDP8 and a PDP11. You'll have to change the pack in an RK05j as well, it's just easier to do in an RK05j (what with the nice door on the front and all that)... -- Roger Ivie TeraGlobal Communications Corporation 1750 North Research Park Way North Logan, UT 84341 Phone: (435)787-0555 Fax: (435)787-0516 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 4 16:46:57 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: DEC hardware questions In-Reply-To: from "Roger Ivie" at Apr 4, 0 03:31:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 295 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000404/e10dcaa6/attachment.ksh From cem14 at cornell.edu Tue Apr 4 17:47:06 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: Santee swap serendipity In-Reply-To: References: <000101bf9e67$2fb6ea40$8ee993c3@proteus> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000404184706.01110e98@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 09:38 PM 4/4/00 +0100, you wrote: \>> Carefully peel up the rubber "feet" on the half which refuses to open, you >> should find a couple of screws hiding under them. > >A lot of manufacturers did this. It provides a way of making the unit >difficult to open for the general user and since the feet don't normally >stick back too well, it provides evidence that someone has been inside. > >HP did this on their calculators (HP41, HP71, HP74 and peripherals), for >example. Yes, although at least on the 71B the feet stick back amazingly well; I should know, I have opened my original 71B (I bought it *new*, at US$525 back in '85) quite a few times in these 15 years, for repairs and mods; the feet are still holding. Of course, I've always been careful not to touch or soil the adhesive in any way. Carlos. From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue Apr 4 18:09:00 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: DEC hardware questions In-Reply-To: <200004042011.PAA09147@caesar.cs.umn.edu>; from lemay@cs.umn.edu on Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 03:11:32PM -0500 References: <200004042011.PAA09147@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <20000404190900.A17263@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 03:11:32PM -0500, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > A RP03 i'm told is a multi-platter drive for a PDP11. Does anyone know > anything else about it? How much storage are we talking about, compared to > an RK05? It's a 12-platter drive, physically huge IIRC (it's been a while), but only holds 40 MB. RT-11 makes one RP03 look basically like two RP02s, since it exceeds RT's 32 MB limit (and this was before the MSCP partition kludge). The controller is an RP11C or RP11E (not sure what the difference is). DEC originally used RP03s on PDP-10s, I'm not sure whether the low-level format is the same on both, but as far as PDP-11 software is concerned it looks like a true blue 512 b/s device, 10 sectors per track, 20 heads, and 406 cyls of which 400 are normally used (the extras are for the maindecs). For comparison, an RK05 holds 2.5 MB. John Wilson D Bit From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue Apr 4 18:12:56 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: DEC hardware questions In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Apr 4, 2000 10:46:57 pm" Message-ID: <200004042312.SAA12137@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > You'll have to change the pack in an RK05j as well, it's just > > easier to do in an RK05j (what with the nice door on the front > > and all that)... > > Yeah, but I don't consider an RK05/RK05j pack to be part of the drive, > whereas the RK05f pack of is considered to be part of its drive. > Let me make sure i understand you. You're saying a RK05f IS completely interchangeable between an 11 and 8 systems, just need to reformat or something? -Lawrence LeMay From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 4 19:06:33 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: DEC hardware questions In-Reply-To: <200004042312.SAA12137@caesar.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Apr 4, 0 06:12:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2736 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000405/f0df42c8/attachment.ksh From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue Apr 4 20:50:01 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: OT:decoding enigma (was Re: One of only 3 "enigma machine" stolen; A piece of ENIAC was up for auction.) References: <200004031218.e33CIE315817@mail2.siemens.de> <200004041105.e34B5Dd07153@mail2.siemens.de> <38EA02C5.97A6426F@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <001b01bf9ea1$42a69580$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Kennedy" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 12:27 AM Subject: OT:decoding enigma (was Re: One of only 3 "enigma machine" stolen; A piece of ENIAC was up for auction.) > Hans Franke wrote: > > > For the records, Bletchley Park did not decode _all_ variants > > used during the war - but they did a prety good job for most > > of the stuff. The key was luck and a lot of good work. > > And some moderate sloppyness in traffic handling by the German > command. The Luftwaffe was particularly slack in this area, the Reichsmarine most certainly were not. The Railway system also used Enigma, to my knowledge, this was never cracked, presumably since it was mostly used on landlines. > Different code schemes were used for different services, with > perterbation of the code schemes based on sensitivitiy. As a > consequence, the code schemes for the U-boat fleet were changed > quite often, while the code scheme used for harbor dispatches > remained static for prolonged periods of time. The Enigma variant and the code used by the Unterseeboote branch (Hydra?) was not penetrated until the British were able to capture the Enigma and codebooks from a U-boat they had forced to surface after prosecuting it with depth charges. The captain supposedly committed suicide (allowed himself to drown according to the story) when he realised he had not disposed of the Enigma and his code books, and the boat didn't sink immediately. ISTR that scuttling charges weren't set in the rush to get off the boat before it sank, (damaged boats that made the surface rarely stayed afloat for more than a minute or two, so this is understandable) unfortunately for the Germans, this one didn't sink straight away. The enigma and codes were retrieved and this gave the the British the ability to read the U-boat traffic for the remainder of the 3 month's of the boat's patrol. The boat was put under tow but rolled over and sank before they got it back to England. IIRC, this info was used to prosecute the 'Milch Cow' supply submarines, many of which were successfully attacked and sunk during this period. This had a serious effect on the success of U-boat operations for that period. Things they learned during this 3 month honeymoon made it possible to penetrate the code again, using the same techniques as with the other Enigma traffic, though it did take some months before they were again able to read the U-boat traffic. The Neptune and Triton codes used by the Reichsmarine were eventually pentetrated by 'conventional' (for BP) means, but not to the same extent as the Luftwaffe variants. IIRC, 'Ultra' traffic led to the discovery and subsequent sinking of the Tirpitz in a Norwegian Fiord. (With a significant contribution from a British Photographic Recon Spitfire flown by Micheal Suckling) References: Most Secret War by Professor R. V. Jones (WW2 head of British Scientific Intelligence) The Secret War (BBC TV series, made in the mid 80's, and the book of the series) Evidence in Camera (Author's name escapes me for the present, a WRAAF Officer) Semi official history of the developement of Allied Photo reconaissance in WW2 Doubtless several others I have read but can't recall the titles of at the moment. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From nerdware at laidbak.com Tue Apr 4 23:05:27 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: OT: Paging Bill Bradford Message-ID: <200004050404.XAA20585@garcon.laidbak.com> Sorry about this, but I was corresponding with Bill about some items and haven't heard from him since the 21st....just wondering if he was having email difficulties or hardware problems.... Thanks. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From Technoid at cheta.net Tue Apr 4 23:06:21 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: Crack this SUN root PW if you can! In-Reply-To: <001b01bf9ea1$42a69580$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: <200004050406.AAA29881@lexington.ioa.net> Here are the passwd and shadow files! Attached below: -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/octet-stream Size: 2620 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000405/a22ec296/attachment.obj -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/octet-stream Size: 1594 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000405/a22ec296/attachment-0001.obj -------------- next part -------------- From mrdos at swbell.net Wed Apr 5 00:06:17 2000 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: IBM System/38 Info Needed Message-ID: <000e01bf9ebc$adfc5a20$40703ed8@compaq> I was just wondering if anyone knew anything about the IBM System/38, or had any software or books for it. Do y'all think it is collectable? Thanks, Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000405/337060a0/attachment.html From spc at armigeron.com Wed Apr 5 00:32:43 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: OT:decoding enigma (was Re: One of only 3 "enigma machine" stolen; In-Reply-To: <001b01bf9ea1$42a69580$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> from "Geoff Roberts" at Apr 05, 2000 11:20:01 AM Message-ID: <200004050532.BAA17487@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Geoff Roberts once stated: > > The Enigma variant and the code used by the Unterseeboote branch > (Hydra?) was not penetrated > until the British were able to capture the Enigma and codebooks from a > U-boat they had forced to > surface after prosecuting it with depth charges. In Neil Stephenson's _Cyrptomonicon_, half the story takes place during WWII in which the Allies are breaking the Axis codes and sending one of the main characters on wild missions that mainly deal with being seen. As one of the characters says, ``The object of an observation plane isn't to observe, but to be observed.'' You don't want to alert the other side that you've broken their code---otherwise they might change it on you. -spc (Very good book. But long) From emanuel.stiebler at mchp.siemens.de Wed Apr 5 02:00:20 2000 From: emanuel.stiebler at mchp.siemens.de (Emanuel_Stiebler/C_Niedermeier) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: Unknown DEC stuff and a few unknown ICs Message-ID: <200004050700.JAA15798@dali18.mchp.siemens.de> >Also, I have these qbus boards from Sky Computer >that I have no clue what they are; they're all quad height (assuming that >means they have four connectors). They are Skywar-Q-A-03, Skywar-Q-B-03, and >Skydpmem-Q-02. Are there From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Apr 5 02:03:17 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: iOpener Update In-Reply-To: <200004050404.XAA20585@garcon.laidbak.com> from "Paul Braun" at Apr 04, 2000 11:05:27 PM Message-ID: <200004050703.AAA23678@shell1.aracnet.com> Well, I'm still in the waiting catagory, but just found out how they made the iOpener "unhackable". According to http://www.i-opener-linux.net/ they've snipped 4 of the pins on the IDE connector, epoxied in the BIOS, and updated the BIOS. Also apparently they've put in a really ugly "Terms of Sale". Ugh, then I found this site. http://bell-2216.cheg.uark.edu/~iopener/ Simply put netpliance has done some ugly hacking on these themselves. Wonder if thier 'hack proofing' will shorten the systems lifespan. Zane From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Wed Apr 5 02:51:08 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: OT:decoding enigma (was Re: One of only 3 "enigma machine" stolen; References: <200004050532.BAA17487@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <002401bf9ed3$b542b880$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 3:02 PM Subject: Re: OT:decoding enigma (was Re: One of only 3 "enigma machine" stolen; > It was thus said that the Great Geoff Roberts once stated: > > > > The Enigma variant and the code used by the Unterseeboote branch > > (Hydra?) was not penetrated > > until the British were able to capture the Enigma and codebooks from a > > U-boat they had forced to > > surface after prosecuting it with depth charges. > > In Neil Stephenson's _Cryptomonicon_, Heard of it, haven't read it. Must see if I can round up a copy. > half the story takes place during > WWII in which the Allies are breaking the Axis codes and sending one of the > main characters on wild missions that mainly deal with being seen. > As one of the characters says, ``The object of an observation plane isn't to > observe, but to be observed.'' Sometimes, perhaps, but I must differ with you on that point. Early in the war, it was remarked that the side with the best photographic intelligence would win. The British (somewhat reluctantly at first) developed the essentially WW1 cameras and aircraft into an excellent system, not only of obtaining good quality pictures, but performing a careful and detailed analysis of them. Much of what was known about Peenemunde and the V1/V2 projects that emanated from it was gleaned from Photo reconaissance, with hints from Ultra at times. Numerous other examples, (the finding of the Tirpitz for instance) also were a direct result of PR. German radar was first identified in a photo taken (using a hint from an intercepted Enigma message) which ultimately resulted in a low-level (PR pilots referred to it as 'dicing') run past a "Freya" on the French coast. Later PR work found the installation at Bruneval that was subsequently raided, and parts and staff captured, by a small force of British commandos. Models of the site and it's approaches were built up using extensive PR 'cover' of the area. It's probably fair to say that the 2 had a symbiotic relationship, PR being used to confirm, expand or capitalise on the Ultra intelligence. It's known that the Chief Scientific Advisor to Winston Churchill considered it impossible for anything like the V2 to be built, as the weight of the vehicle strong enough to contain sufficient cordite would exceed it's lifting ability. (This is before liquid fuelled rockets were considered practical on a large scale). Despite 'Ultra" traffic to the contrary, his stand was overturned with the help of PR cover of Peenemunde presenting visible evidence, on top of Ultra traffic, sufficient to convince Churchill. Had this not occured, it is possible the German development and deployment program would have been significantly unhindered, which could have had serious consequences for the Allies. The successful detection and prosecution of the V1 'Ski sites' in France was almost entirely a result of PR interpreters noting the construction of the buildings and lauching ramps, which in the first stage, were quite large and served by a rail spur. Destruction by bombing of the large scale ski sites led the Germans to construct a smaller, less conspicuous site, with only a couple of essential structures. These too were found, though not all were destroyed. "For want of a nail......" The British pioneered the practice of using a single high performance fighter, stripped of guns and other additional weight and drag adding items, painted so as to make it hard to see against the sky. Such an aircraft could outrun enemy fighters, and was able to operate (and take useable pictures!) well above the accurate range of AAA of the time. High altitude presented it's own problems, and required such things as ducting warm air over the cameras and lenses to stop them freezing or frosting over in the subzero temperatures. TheGermans began to adopt similar techniques later in the war, (the Arado jet bomber was used for PR at one time). The German's had a somewhat fanciful notion of the excellence of British Intelligence, (it was good, but not THAT good) and put down some seemingly 'clairvoyant' actions by the enemy to spies and other 'conventional' sources of information. They apparently did not at anytime suspect that Enigma had been penetrated. (Though I believe the question was asked of the Intelligence service at one time.) Considering the security wrapped around BP and it's "Ultra" traffic, this is not surprising. ON TOPIC BIT: :^) The existence of the Colossus machine (used to penetrate the Geheimschreiber codes) was still secret for many years after WW2. The first true computer, it predated the Eniac and other things by some years, but it's existence was so shrouded in secrecy, it was over 30 years before it became public knowledge. A working replica has recently been created at Bletchley, and fairly recently, the plans for the Bombe decoding machines used to penetrate Enigma, (none survived the war, and the plans were thought to be lost)were discovered in records of the British Tabulating Machine Company who built them under highly secret conditions for BP. An attempt is now being made to construct a replica of the Bombe. (I'm probably preaching to the knowledgeable here, excuse me if you know this already) END OF ON TOPIC BIT... > You don't want to alert the other side that > you've broken their code---otherwise they might change it on you. For 'might' read 'will'. If a code is suspected of being compromised, or even if a code or cypher book is lost (in the conventional sense) it is invariably changed. The author of the book that contained the reference to the U-boat incident remarked that it was probably fortunate the U-boat sank under tow, (during the night IIRC) or it might well have been spotted by a German aircraft, and the codes would doubtless have been considered compromised and changed at once. No combatant would risk using a compromised code. Exception: If you know your code is compromised, but the enemy don't know that you know, it can be useful for disinformation purposes. Example: German agents were dropped into Britain. As far as is known, they were all captured before they could send any useful information. (One broke his leg in the parachute landing, and woke up in an English hospital) The spies were given the option of death by firing squad, or incarceration in a prison. The incarceration option was conditional on thier sending information, in their own codes, as directed by their captors. The V1 attacks on London were actually affected by this, as the spies were directed to inform their masters that the weapons were overflying London and impacting beyond it. This caused the Germans to alter the autopilot settings on the V1's so that many that might have hit the city fell well short into (mostly) uninhabited territory. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Apr 5 04:26:53 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: iOpener Update In-Reply-To: <200004050703.AAA23678@shell1.aracnet.com> References: <200004050404.XAA20585@garcon.laidbak.com> from "Paul Braun" at Apr 04, 2000 11:05:27 PM Message-ID: >Ugh, then I found this site. http://bell-2216.cheg.uark.edu/~iopener/ >Simply put netpliance has done some ugly hacking on these themselves. >Wonder if thier 'hack proofing' will shorten the systems lifespan. One can hope, tons of bad karma and just maybe a bug crept in during the hacking of the bios that is now epoxied in, the company goes down the toilet and all the original hackable systems show up for sale even cheaper with no QNX to run on. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Apr 4 15:53:03 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: DEC hardware questions Message-ID: <20000404205303.28655.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> --- Lawrence LeMay wrote: > Can RK05's from a PDP11 system be used on a PDP8? Do i need to find > special disk cartridges? 16-bit machines (PDP-11) use 12 sector cartridges. 12-bit machines (PDP-8) use 16-sector cartridges. The difference is in how many saw cuts are made in the aluminum rim on the bottom. While it is *theoretically* possible to plug the wrong cuts and make new ones in the correct place, I am not aware of anyone attempting this, let alone succeeding. I myself have a quantity of 12-sector packs and 1 16-sector pack (formatted for an RK05F) (and no RK8E) -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Apr 5 07:46:25 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: iOpener Update In-Reply-To: <200004050703.AAA23678@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Apr 2000 healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > Well, I'm still in the waiting catagory, but just found out how they made > the iOpener "unhackable". > > According to http://www.i-opener-linux.net/ they've snipped 4 of the pins on > the IDE connector, epoxied in the BIOS, and updated the BIOS. The pins are simply clipped off. So now some careful soldering is required. No biggie. They apparently put epoxy on the back to make it harder but thats minor at best. The bios mod worries me, I may have to work out reflashing it. I still havent gotten mine from CC YET! Since I bought 3/13 any TOS change is bait and switch or breach of contract that existed at that time. The TOS apparently changed between the 3/28 and 4/1. > Also apparently they've put in a really ugly "Terms of Sale". Yes, they are trying to make it like a cable box in that they are the owner and your buying the service. > Ugh, then I found this site. http://bell-2216.cheg.uark.edu/~iopener/ > Simply put netpliance has done some ugly hacking on these themselves. > Wonder if thier 'hack proofing' will shorten the systems lifespan. They _may_ think it's unhackable, it still can be but those that fear soldering tools or other gimicks used are out. For the hard core that have hacked military and other confomal coated stuff, it's a minor challenge. The TOS change is harder to get around but when the smoke clears we'll get them for 39cents on the $1 at the going out of business auction. I think a lot of bad press is all the will get now. I'm considering canning the order, but I'd like something small like that that isn't a laptop. We shall see. Allison From sipke at wxs.nl Wed Apr 5 08:00:28 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: uVAX II Questions Message-ID: <000701bf9efe$ebcfa900$030101ac@boll.casema.net> I've just made my uVAX II accessable and opened it up to check what's inside and would like some comments on what it contains. I want to connect it by network or serial cable to my network or a PC. It Should have bootable software installed. These are the things I know but if any of you would like to elaborate feel welcome BA123 Box containing: CPU M7606 with propably 1 MB RAM (Onboard RAM=disconnected if other RAM is present ?) RAM M7609 2x (Do they have standard amount) they are fully stucked with chips M7516 DEQLA or DEQNA ? (Has cable going to the AUI connector at the back) M7555 Diskcontroller ? dunno type of controller but it connects to 2 * RD54a (via an intermediate board and cables) M7546 Tapecontroller for TK50 Unkown ID. Board from Distributed Logic Corp with the following numbers: SQ703A , 706AQ0748 and on the rom: 45u / 92782 Rev j. It is connected to an EXABYTE 8200SX 8mm Tapedrive so it shoul be a SCSI-controller. The guy i got the uVAX from told me that I could change it to a SCSI-controller the could access SCSI-HD's rather than a EXABYTE tapedrive. But I should change some prom's on the card. TK50 1x EXABYTE 8200SX 1x RD54A 2x Furthermore I would like to know how to connect a PC-terminal-emulator to the terminal connector at the back. It is a 9 pin D-type connector and a Baudrate switch next to it. Does it have a standard PC-like pinout? Do I connect with null-modem configuration ? Sipke de Wal From rmeenaks at olf.com Wed Apr 5 08:38:50 2000 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: Borland C++ 5.5 compiler released for free Message-ID: <38EB41EA.2F200DA0@olf.com> Hi, I dont know if this is going to interest anyone, but Borland has released its ANSI C++ compiler for free. Check it out at http://www.borland.com/bcppbuilder/freecompiler/cppc55steps.html Ram From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Apr 4 17:26:13 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: VAX 11/730 available Message-ID: <20000404222613.2778.qmail@web611.mail.yahoo.com> --- Lawrence LeMay wrote: > There is a VAX 11/730 available in Minneapolis. Obviously i'm not shipping > it, or having anything to do with it. if you want it, and can come tpick it > up in minneapolis, i can put you in contact with the person who has it. > > Otherwise, i will of course attempt to grab any useful boards and such > before it goes to the recyclers. At that time, i would then post what > is available to the list. Which style is it? One style has disks above and below the CPU (11/730-Z?), the other has the CPU in something that's more like a BA-11 with the TU-58 at the top of the rack. I have one of the ultra-cramped ones with the CPU in the middle. I don't have one with the CPU at the top. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Wed Apr 5 09:05:21 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: uVAX II Questions In-Reply-To: <000701bf9efe$ebcfa900$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000405070521.00935290@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 15:00 05-04-2000 +0200, you wrote: >BA123 Box containing: Ahh, the 'WorldBox.' Nice enclosure! It's the only one I've seen that can be both a server and an end table in one package. ;-) >CPU M7606 with propably 1 MB RAM > (Onboard RAM=disconnected if other RAM is > present ?) With the other two memory boards present, this is correct. Max memory for the MV-II was 16MB. Still plenty for VMS or NetBSD. >RAM M7609 2x (Do they have standard amount) > they are fully stucked with chips Yes. These would be 8MB each. >M7516 DEQLA or DEQNA ? > (Has cable going to the AUI connector at the back) You're in luck. The 7516 is a DELQA, the later of the two. >M7555 Diskcontroller ? dunno type of controller > but it connects to 2 * RD54a > (via an intermediate board and cables) This is an RQDX3. It can handle up to two hard drives (the RD54's are 170 meg or so) and one dual floppy drive. Some MV owners (myself included) have pulled away from the RQDX3 for hard drive support, and turned instead to ESDI or SCSI drives using the appropriate board from Dilog, Emulex, or whoever. >M7546 Tapecontroller for TK50 Specifically, a TQK50 controller. >Unkown ID. > Board from Distributed Logic Corp with the following numbers: > SQ703A , 706AQ0748 and on the rom: 45u / 92782 Rev j. Oooooh! Lucky person!! That's an early Dilog Qbus to SCSI adapter! > It is connected to an EXABYTE 8200SX 8mm Tapedrive so > it shoul be a SCSI-controller. The guy i got the uVAX from told me > that I could change it to a SCSI-controller the could access SCSI-HD's > rather than a EXABYTE tapedrive. But I should change some prom's > on the card. I suspect this is correct, but I don't know for sure. The 703 may be tape-only, while its big brother, the SQ706, should be able to do tape or disk... can someone who's Dilog-fluent check me on that, please? >Furthermore I would like to know how to connect a PC-terminal-emulator to >the terminal connector at the back. It is a 9 pin D-type connector and a >Baudrate switch next to it. >Does it have a standard PC-like pinout? No. You'd need either an "official" DEC console cable, or you can make one with the pinout chart from: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/jmcm/www/info/mvii-console.txt Good luck! The MVII is a nice system, and (if you like Unix) will run NetBSD (www.netbsd.org) no problem. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Apr 5 09:29:06 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: uVAX II Questions In-Reply-To: <000701bf9efe$ebcfa900$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: > CPU M7606 with propably 1 MB RAM > (Onboard RAM=disconnected if other RAM is > present ?) only if ram exceeds 15mb (there is a 16mb max for KA630). > RAM M7609 2x (Do they have standard amount) > they are fully stucked with chips Either 4mb or 8mb (for VMS 9mb is plenty) > M7516 DEQLA or DEQNA ? > (Has cable going to the AUI connector at the back) Memory says DELQA, either will do DELQA is prefered. Need AUI to 10b2 or 10bT adaptor. > M7555 Diskcontroller ? dunno type of controller > but it connects to 2 * RD54a > (via an intermediate board and cables) RQDX3 MSCP controller. Useable for up to 4 RD series drives or 2 RD and 1 RX50. > M7546 Tapecontroller for TK50 Standard TK50 controller. > Unkown ID. > Board from Distributed Logic Corp with the following numbers: > SQ703A , 706AQ0748 and on the rom: 45u / 92782 Rev j. > It is connected to an EXABYTE 8200SX 8mm Tapedrive so > it shoul be a SCSI-controller. The guy i got the uVAX from told me > that I could change it to a SCSI-controller the could access SCSI-HD's > rather than a EXABYTE tapedrive. But I should change some prom's > on the card. Soundslike it. > > TK50 1x > EXABYTE 8200SX 1x > RD54A 2x RD54=159mb (enough for any VMS version), two is plenty of space. Try and find a DZV-11 or DHV11 for it as that will give you some additional buffered serial ports. Those are easily found Qbus cards and should be cheap to free. The cab kits( connector plate and cables) are harder to find but are easily hacked. > Furthermore I would like to know how to connect a PC-terminal-emulator to > the terminal > connector at the back. It is a 9 pin D-type connector and a Baudrate switch > next to it. > Does it have a standard PC-like pinout? Do I connect with null-modem > configuration ? No, not PC. There are plenty of FAQs on that, checnk the NetBSD site for some of them. FYI: that port if for a console and is not reliable for high data rate use (>4800 sustained data rate). They run fine for terminals at 9600. also unless the break switch is set on the rear, the console port has halt on break (it's caused people to wonder why the vax stops when the tube is turned off!). For interconnect use like for modem or modem emulator use one of the other serial ports is available (DZV, DHV are buffered and run at higher sustained rates). Typical small printers for VAXen were LA100, LA75, LA5, LN03 with serial interfaces and hung off a DHV or DZV port. If a bigger printer was used a LP25/26/27 was interfaced using LPV11 dataproducts parallel. I run two of them, like them alot. ;) Allison From rivie at teraglobal.com Wed Apr 5 09:38:09 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: DEC hardware questions In-Reply-To: <200004042312.SAA12137@caesar.cs.umn.edu> References: <200004042312.SAA12137@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: > > > You'll have to change the pack in an RK05j as well, it's just > > > easier to do in an RK05j (what with the nice door on the front > > > and all that)... > > > > Yeah, but I don't consider an RK05/RK05j pack to be part of the drive, > > whereas the RK05f pack of is considered to be part of its drive. > > > >Let me make sure i understand you. You're saying a RK05f IS completely >interchangeable between an 11 and 8 systems, just need to reformat or >something? No, he's saying that you need to change an RK05f between 8s and 11s, it's just not as easy as changing an RK05j. -- Roger Ivie TeraGlobal Communications Corporation 1750 North Research Park Way North Logan, UT 84341 Phone: (435)787-0555 Fax: (435)787-0516 From cem14 at cornell.edu Wed Apr 5 10:04:58 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: installing OpenVMS Message-ID: <38EB561A.43F122B8@cornell.edu> Well, I've decided to bite the bullet and try to install OpenVMS 7.2 from the media kit I bought a few months ago from Montagar. I have this Vaxstation 4000/60; I exchanged the RZ-24E it originally had by an ST31200N. I transferred a TZ30 drive from a storage expansion box that was used in a decstation 2100 to the right bay, and I got hold of a 512 bytes/sector DEC CDROM. The prospect of the installation is somewhat scary forme since I know nothing about VMS, but with the help of the OpenVMS installation guide I am to the point where I restored the system save set to the ST31200 (dka0) and booted off it. So far, the only choice I have made is to select Decnet plus over Decnet phase IV, as the installation instructions seemed to hint that it can work over tcp/ip . When it is done extracting those packages, I understand that it is going to ask me about passwords and about SCSNODE and SCSSYSTEMID. Can someone explain SCSSYSTEMID to me? I know nothing about OpenVMS or DECNET, but I am hoping to eventually set up things to boot the uVax II that I also have off the 4000/60; in addition, I'd like to connect everything to the university's 10T and run internet clients on the 4000/60 . accepting to being clueless, Carlos. -- Carlos Murillo-Sanchez email: cem14@cornell.edu 428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853 From transit at lerctr.org Wed Apr 5 11:00:29 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: Borland C++ 5.5 compiler released for free In-Reply-To: <38EB41EA.2F200DA0@olf.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > Hi, > > I dont know if this is going to interest anyone, but Borland has > released its ANSI C++ compiler for free. Check it out at > http://www.borland.com/bcppbuilder/freecompiler/cppc55steps.html I went over there, and 1. In order to download, you have to "register as a member of the Borland Community", fill out a survey, and a few other hoops to jump through before they give you the goods 2. When I tried to register, I got the following message: "Sorry for the inconveneince. This part of the Website is temporarily closed for database maintainence. Please come back soon. " Maybe I'll try again tomorrow... ------------------------------------------------------------------ Charles P. Hobbs transit@lerctr.org From rmeenaks at olf.com Wed Apr 5 11:10:49 2000 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: Borland C++ 5.5 compiler released for free References: Message-ID: <38EB6589.17B11590@olf.com> Hi, I tried as well, but unfortunately, the site is heavily used. I think people are jumping at this opportunity. I am also going to try tomorrow... Ram "Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)" wrote: > On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > I dont know if this is going to interest anyone, but Borland has > > released its ANSI C++ compiler for free. Check it out at > > http://www.borland.com/bcppbuilder/freecompiler/cppc55steps.html > > I went over there, and > 1. In order to download, you have to "register as a member of the Borland > Community", fill out a survey, and a few other hoops to jump through > before they give you the goods > > 2. When I tried to register, I got the following message: > "Sorry for the inconveneince. This part of the Website is temporarily > closed for database maintainence. Please come back soon. " > > Maybe I'll try again tomorrow... > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Charles P. Hobbs > transit@lerctr.org From rivie at teraglobal.com Wed Apr 5 11:20:26 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: installing OpenVMS In-Reply-To: <38EB561A.43F122B8@cornell.edu> References: <38EB561A.43F122B8@cornell.edu> Message-ID: >over tcp/ip . When it is done extracting those packages, I >understand that it is going to ask me about passwords and >about SCSNODE and SCSSYSTEMID. Can someone explain >SCSSYSTEMID to me? I haven't played with DECnet Plus, so I'm not aware of any requirements it may make on SCSSYSTEMID. SCSSYSTEMID is used to differentiate systems in a cluster. If you're not clustering your machine, you shouldn't have to worry about it too much. If you are in a cluster, the SCSSYTEMID needs to be related to the DECnet IV node number. Basically, SCSSYSTEMID = ( DECnet area * 1024 ) + DECnet node. So if you've told DECnet IV that you're node 51.10, you'll need to set SCSSYSTEMID to (51 * 1024) + 10 = 52234. -- Roger Ivie TeraGlobal Communications Corporation 1750 North Research Park Way North Logan, UT 84341 Phone: (435)787-0555 Fax: (435)787-0516 From vcf at siconic.com Wed Apr 5 11:36:38 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: Someone needs WordPerfect 5.1 Message-ID: Jesus needs WordPerfect 5.1. Can you help him out? Please reply to Jesus directly. Reply-to: jdiaz@turbo.kean.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 20:12:05 -0400 (EDT) From: DIAZ To: vcf@vintage.org Subject: A QUESTION ABOUT VCF I cannot be present at the Festival, yet I wonder if I can somehow find out if someone has, and wants to sell, WordPerfect 5.1. Though I will carefully test and screen for viruses any such software, my intuition tells me your source is far more reliable than trying to get it through e-bay. Looking forward to your response. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Jesus A. Diaz Philosophy Department Kean University Union, NJ 07083 USA (908) 527-2311 (voice) / (908) 289-1397 (fax) WWW = http://www.kean.edu (Kean University's Home Page) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From technoid at cheta.net Wed Apr 5 10:41:15 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200004051643.MAA00869@lexington.ioa.net> I hope they nuke Redmond Washington and spread salt. When I was in Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War I read an article in Arab Times. A U.S. Air Force general, in reply to a question regarding our military capability replied: " Oh, we could nuke Bagdad into Glass, wipe it with Windex, tie fatback to our feet and go skating.".... -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Apr 5 12:19:53 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: iOpener Update Message-ID: <000405131953.202000b2@trailing-edge.com> > Also apparently they've put in a really ugly "Terms of Sale". Particularly ugly - if you don't use their $21.95 month net access service for their required period of time, they'll charge you $499. If they don't have your credit card number, they'll send you a bill. See https://secure.netpliance.com/store/terms_sale.asp (Why you need a security-enabled browser to look at their terms and conditions, I don't know. But at the bottom of that page they encourage you to e-mail them with the name and address of anyone who has violated their policies by doing as much as disassembling or modifying the device.) Makes $99 sound like not so much of a bargain anymore, huh? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From bill_r at inetnebr.com Wed Apr 5 13:20:02 2000 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: Someone needs WordPerfect 5.1 Message-ID: <200004051818.NAA19387@pigeon.inebraska.com> Your office software vendor has been found guilty of monopolistic business practices, so... "You must ask yourself 'What would Jesus do?'" He'd ditch MS-Office and boot up WordPerfect, of course! (Sorry - couldn't resist... So the rumor that Bill Gates is the Second Coming isn't true?) --- > >Jesus needs WordPerfect 5.1. Can you help him out? Please reply to Jesus >directly. > Bill Richman http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf microcomputer simulator!) From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 5 13:26:28 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:33 2005 Subject: MAI BASIC 4 Message-ID: Anyone have a terminal (serial?) card for an MAI BASIC 4 to help that guy? ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 13:39:50 CLT From: Luis Alejandro Peña Ramirez Gentlemen: We are a small store; SOLARI Y CIA. LTDA. Located in pais of CHILE, city of ARICA, My problem is the following one; We have a computer MAI BASIC FOUR, with the following ones: Characteristic: MAI BASIC FOUR 7.2 R Model 1800 Unix Propietari NO Standard UNIX operating system (BOSS/IX) In this machine there is a program build in language Business BASIC, the operating system BOSS/IX that have the advantages of UNIX. And the Business applications and associated data files The main problem is in which the card multi port that it connects the terminals this card I burn myself due to a blow of current. Good we needed to acquire with extreme urgency this card, because we needed to continue operating with the terminals. The characteristics of the card are the following ones: CARD: Multi Port to 8 terminal ISA 16 bits Conectors : RJ I need information Cost of the card, Cost of send, and more information about purchase of hardware of MAI BASIC FOUR. (CHIP of serial number of machine) I wait for a very quick answer, thank you very much by from now on. Luis Peña Rámirez Ingenier of Computation and informatic Email: douglas772@hotmail.com miguelarias66@latinmail.com Adreess: ARICA, CHILE: 21 de MAYO #221 Phone: (056)09-8360545 (056)(052)225020 P.D.: The information send me in Spanish, please. (If us do). If you don`t help me. Need information the other place (e-mail, HTTP, phone) where help me, with this hardware. En Español: Señores WAL ENTER: Nosotros somos una pequeña tienda; SOLARI Y CIA. LTDA. Ubicada en el pais de CHILE, ciudad de ARICA, Mi problema es el siguiente; Tenemos un computador MAI BASIC FOUR, con las siguientes : Caracteristicas: MAI BASIC FOUR 7.2 R Model 1800 Unix Propietari NO Standard UNIX operating system (BOSS/IX) En esta maquina hay un programa implentado en lenguaje Business BASIC, el sistema Operativo BOSS/IX que reune las ventajas de Unix. El problema principal radica en que la tarjeta multi puerta que conecta los terminales, esta tarjeta se quemo debido a un golpe de corriente. Bueno necesitamos adquirir con suma urgencia esta tarjeta, debido a que necesitamos seguir operando con los terminales. Las caracteristicas de la tarjeta son las siguientes: Multi Port to 8 terminal ISA 16 bits Conectors : RJ Necesito información de Costo de la tarjeta, Costo de envio, y más información acerca de compra de hardware de MAI BASIC FOUR. (Chip de número de serie del equipo) Espero una muy pronta respuesta, muchas gracias por desde ahora. Luis Peña Rámirez Ingeniero en Computacion e informatica Email: douglas772@hotmail.com miguelarias66@latinmail.com direccion: ARICA, CHILE: 21 de MAYO #221 telefono: (056)09-8360545 (056)(052)225020 P.D.: La información por favor enviemela en Español. (Si se puede). Si no pueden ayudarme le agradeceria que me dieran informacion de otro lugar donde pueda acudir para comprar este hardware(e-mail, HTTP, telefono). From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 5 12:58:23 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: DEC hardware questions In-Reply-To: <20000404205303.28655.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 4, 0 01:53:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1042 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000405/4c7c91b9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 5 13:02:15 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: iOpener Update In-Reply-To: <200004050703.AAA23678@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at Apr 5, 0 00:03:17 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1039 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000405/a378d09b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 5 14:53:29 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: iOpener Update In-Reply-To: <000405131953.202000b2@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Apr 5, 0 01:19:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 400 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000405/9e9aca85/attachment.ksh From ghldbrd at ccp.com Wed Apr 5 20:59:56 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <200004051643.MAA00869@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: Hello technoid@cheta.net On 05-Apr-00, you wrote: > I hope they nuke Redmond Washington and spread salt. > It won't happen because Bill Gates has made his position almost equal with that of the Deity, expecially in the area of making the computer 'user-friendly'. They will just pull out one of his horns. In my job search, I have found that 'computer literacy' really means 'Microsoft software literacy'. There is little interest in actual programming (C, Forth, Basic, etc,) or alternate o/s like Linux or any of the U**x clones out there. They simply want someone who can unravel the bugs inherant in the bloated code of Windoze version-this-week. Gary Hildebrand Amiga user and vehemently anti-Microsluff From technoid at cheta.net Wed Apr 5 14:30:58 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: Wanted! Solaris 2.4 (sparc) In-Reply-To: <200004051643.MAA00869@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <200004052031.QAA12848@lexington.ioa.net> Anyone have Solaris 2.4 or sunos 5.4 on cd or tape? I will trade a type 4 keyboard for a cd. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From sipke at wxs.nl Wed Apr 5 15:44:35 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: Additional uVAXII question Message-ID: <005f01bf9f3f$c24f5bc0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> My uVAX may have had some 4 or 8port serial card that was removed. The RS232 connectors are still present on the back. Now in the cardcage it seems a card is missing. Would that be a problem ? (bus continuity) this is the current situation Slot ... 6 5 4 3 2 1 +-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ (X) | M | M | M | M | M | 7555 7516 7609 7609 7606 | DI- | M | (X) | | | | LOG 7546 +-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ The first 3 cards are Quad but the bottom position of slot 4 is empty (X) as is the top slot 6 Would that be ok ? Sipke From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Apr 5 15:03:12 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: DEC hardware questions In-Reply-To: <20000404205303.28655.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> (message from Ethan Dicks on Tue, 4 Apr 2000 13:53:03 -0700 (PDT)) References: <20000404205303.28655.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000405200312.6353.qmail@brouhaha.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > 16-bit machines (PDP-11) use 12 sector cartridges. 12-bit machines (PDP-8) > use 16-sector cartridges. The difference is in how many saw cuts are made > in the aluminum rim on the bottom. While it is *theoretically* possible > to plug the wrong cuts and make new ones in the correct place, I am not > aware of anyone attempting this, let alone succeeding. Better yet, how about a hardware hack that drops the hard sector pulses entirely, and uses a PLL to derive the desired number of sector pulses from the index pulse? Should be possible to implement with a software digital PLL in a Scenix microcontroller, or maybe even a PIC. Then you could mount a switch on the front panel to select 12 or 16 sector operation, regardless of the pack. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Apr 5 16:13:44 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: References: <200004051643.MAA00869@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <4.1.20000405141138.0437b9f0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> >In my job search, I have found that 'computer literacy' really means >'Microsoft software literacy'. There is little interest in actual >programming (C, Forth, Basic, etc,) or alternate o/s like Linux or any of >the U**x clones out there. While I agree the majority of programming positions are for people who understand enough MS stuff to deliver product, places like FreeGate (and now Tut) who do embedded systems that are more sophisticated than network switches are all using UNIX oses. We've got three openings in the SF Bay Area that we're trying to fill right now and its tough to get through the noise. --Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Apr 5 16:13:44 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: References: <200004051643.MAA00869@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <4.1.20000405141138.0437b9f0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> >In my job search, I have found that 'computer literacy' really means >'Microsoft software literacy'. There is little interest in actual >programming (C, Forth, Basic, etc,) or alternate o/s like Linux or any of >the U**x clones out there. While I agree the majority of programming positions are for people who understand enough MS stuff to deliver product, places like FreeGate (and now Tut) who do embedded systems that are more sophisticated than network switches are all using UNIX oses. We've got three openings in the SF Bay Area that we're trying to fill right now and its tough to get through the noise. --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Apr 5 16:23:11 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: iOpener Update In-Reply-To: References: <000405131953.202000b2@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Apr 5, 0 01:19:53 pm Message-ID: >> >> > Also apparently they've put in a really ugly "Terms of Sale". >> >> Particularly ugly - if you don't use their $21.95 month net access >> service for their required period of time, they'll charge you $499. >> If they don't have your credit card number, they'll send you a bill. > >What if you buy one in a shop, and pay cash for it? Or do they insist on >being told your name and address? That's what concerns me. For example, I reserved one with Circuit City on the 13th of March, put down $20, and since I was reserving it, they took that info at that time. Actually their new sales model strikes me as being the more sensible and honest, *except* for the fact they appear to be trying to retrofit it to units already order and/or sold (and I would think that is illegal). It's actually what their policy *should* have been from the beginning, not after they found themselves in deep trouble. Basically they've blown it big time, and their stocks still sinking last I looked (yesterday). As a result the most sensible thing would probably be to forget about it for now, and wait till they show up on the surplus market when the company goes under. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From Anthony.Eros at compaq.com Wed Apr 5 16:23:10 2000 From: Anthony.Eros at compaq.com (Eros, Anthony) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: iOpener Update Message-ID: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F07302DCF@ALFEXC5> Has anyone else seen this? The only thing I get when I power up my iOpener is a screen that says "Welcome! i-opener Out of the box. In the outlets. On the counter. Nothin' but 'Net!" Nothing else. No other screens, or startup messages. Control-alt-home, or home-4 do nothing. Any suggestions? -- Tony > ---------- > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk[SMTP:ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk] > Reply To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 3:53 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: iOpener Update > > > > > > Also apparently they've put in a really ugly "Terms of Sale". > > > > Particularly ugly - if you don't use their $21.95 month net access > > service for their required period of time, they'll charge you $499. > > If they don't have your credit card number, they'll send you a bill. > > What if you buy one in a shop, and pay cash for it? Or do they insist on > being told your name and address? > > -tony > From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Apr 5 19:08:00 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: iOpener Update References: <200004050703.AAA23678@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <008701bf9f5c$2c7a8da0$38731fd1@default> I just left CC and they would not sell me the demo unit saying that had to RETURN ALL the old units they had for the new model. Makes me think they had some ones in stock. And they will not take orders for the new model right now. SUCKS ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 2:03 AM Subject: iOpener Update > Well, I'm still in the waiting catagory, but just found out how they made > the iOpener "unhackable". > > According to http://www.i-opener-linux.net/ they've snipped 4 of the pins on > the IDE connector, epoxied in the BIOS, and updated the BIOS. > > Also apparently they've put in a really ugly "Terms of Sale". > > Ugh, then I found this site. http://bell-2216.cheg.uark.edu/~iopener/ > Simply put netpliance has done some ugly hacking on these themselves. > Wonder if thier 'hack proofing' will shorten the systems lifespan. > > Zane > From elvey at hal.com Wed Apr 5 19:49:53 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: Working on my NIC-80 / NIC-1080 In-Reply-To: <008701bf9f5c$2c7a8da0$38731fd1@default> Message-ID: <200004060049.RAA20060@civic.hal.com> Hi I've made a lot of progress on my old Nicolet machine but I've come to a wall. I've found code to run the original hard disk system ( called DEMON II ) but I have a floppy based system and need DEMON/F. If anyone knows where there might be one of these machines, let me know. ( I've already gotten all the stuff Sellam Ismail has. ) If any of you are going to a college or university, please check your physics department. These were used as data processors for NMR spectrometers. I had hoped that the code was still in the core memory but inspection has shown that the code there is not what I'm looking for. Please help Dwight From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Apr 5 20:13:16 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: I need some PDP-11 RT11 archiving software Message-ID: <000405211316.202000b2@trailing-edge.com> >time to write anything. I will have some people come over and feed in the >paper tape this weekend. While I won't be able to archive most of it, I do >hope to at least read in most of the source code on paper tape. (I have over >310 PDP-1 paper tapes alone). So how did the archiving go? Find any notable gems you're dying to tell us about? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Apr 5 19:40:04 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: iOpener Update Message-ID: <000e01bf9f60$bb98bfd0$7f64c0d0@ajp166> >I just left CC and they would not sell me the demo unit saying that had to >RETURN ALL the old units they had for the new model. Makes me think they >had some ones in stock. And they will not take orders for the new model >right now. SUCKS I would have faced them down using BAIT and SWITCH as the cause. Which is what is being done. I plan to drop in on CC friday after work likely to cancle as things is getting to be more of a project if it progresses along the current path. I have other projects I need tp put the time to. Unlike some I paid in full, so I feel I can demand product under conditions at time of sale, 3/13! All in all a big pain. Allison From cchd at kerberos.davies.net.au Wed Apr 5 21:22:44 2000 From: cchd at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > In my job search, I have found that 'computer literacy' really means > 'Microsoft software literacy'. There is little interest in actual > programming (C, Forth, Basic, etc,) or alternate o/s like Linux or any of > the U**x clones out there. They simply want someone who can unravel the > bugs inherant in the bloated code of Windoze version-this-week. I was at the Programming sectin of the local Computer Book store last week, only to discover that "Programming" == Visual Basic, C on Windows and that's about it. I wonder what I learnt at Uni should be called? I used to program in Algol (60 and 68), Pascal, BCPL, Simula-67 and BLISS-10... At least one of them is still current! Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Apr 5 22:37:08 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: from "Huw Davies" at Apr 06, 2000 12:22:44 PM Message-ID: <200004060337.UAA30035@shell1.aracnet.com> Huw Davies wrote: > I was at the Programming sectin of the local Computer Book store last > week, only to discover that "Programming" == Visual Basic, C on Windows > and that's about it. Don't you know, being able to write in Visual Basic is what all computer professionals aspire to! Rumor has it Windows 2000 was written in Visual Basic. > I wonder what I learnt at Uni should be called? I used to program in Algol > (60 and 68), Pascal, BCPL, Simula-67 and BLISS-10... At least one of them > is still current! OK, I give up. Which one? I'm not aware of Microsoft having any Windows software by those names, therefore they don't exist, and never did! Zane PS let me just say for the benefit of anyone new here, I'm joking folks! From af-list at wfi-inc.com Wed Apr 5 22:38:43 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: iOpener Update In-Reply-To: <000e01bf9f60$bb98bfd0$7f64c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: I think it's ironic that the only person I've heard from after the initial slashdot-motivated rush on the iOpener with a *positive* experience is John Wilson - who ordered his directly from Netpliance. It seems that the extra $30 for shipping was much less of a nuisance than all of the gobbledy-gook that's gone on since... Cheers, Aaron On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, allisonp wrote: > >I just left CC and they would not sell me the demo unit saying that had to > >RETURN ALL the old units they had for the new model. Makes me think they > >had some ones in stock. And they will not take orders for the new model > >right now. SUCKS > > > I would have faced them down using BAIT and SWITCH as the cause. Which > is what is being done. I plan to drop in on CC friday after work likely to > cancle > as things is getting to be more of a project if it progresses along the > current > path. I have other projects I need tp put the time to. Unlike some I paid > in full, > so I feel I can demand product under conditions at time of sale, 3/13! All > in all > a big pain. > > Allison > > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 5 23:20:25 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: <200004060337.UAA30035@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <002901bf9f7f$71149320$0400c0a8@winbook> I really can't understand what all the hostility toward Microsoft is about. If it weren't for the low prices resulting from the economy of scale, scale which is enabled by the fact that Microsoft made computers simple enough to use that the masses could and would use them. If you want to dog somebody, the go after DEC, (God be thanked that they're gone!) with their antiquated technology always a generation behind everyone else and with their ridiculous prices. If DEC had had their way you'd have to use a single flip=flop pair for which they charged you 10^15 bucks per year and which broke twice a month so some under-trained ignoramus could come around and pretend to fix the thing. Then, if you had the unmitigated audacity to try to use some other vendor's hardware or software, they'd raise hell and point down the wire if their stuff didn't behave as claimed. The only point I've seen in this thread that makes any sense at all is the one about Visual Basic. If your really want that 6-7 figure income, you'll learn it. I know at least half a dozen fellows who have taken that up. Forget about the C++ or C or Delphi! These guys took 6 weeks to learn the VB and now most of them have paid off their houses, cards, and credit cards and vacation in Arruba in the winter and Alaska in the summer. at least twice. The oldest of the guys I know doing this is 35 and worth over $10^7 net. Five years ago, he was begging me for work. How many guys do you know who have net savings of over a year's gross after only five years? That certainly indicates VB is not just a joke. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 9:37 PM Subject: Re: Nuke Redmond! > Huw Davies wrote: > > I was at the Programming sectin of the local Computer Book store last > > week, only to discover that "Programming" == Visual Basic, C on Windows > > and that's about it. > > Don't you know, being able to write in Visual Basic is what all computer > professionals aspire to! Rumor has it Windows 2000 was written in Visual > Basic. > > > I wonder what I learnt at Uni should be called? I used to program in Algol > > (60 and 68), Pascal, BCPL, Simula-67 and BLISS-10... At least one of them > > is still current! > > OK, I give up. Which one? I'm not aware of Microsoft having any Windows > software by those names, therefore they don't exist, and never did! > > Zane > > PS let me just say for the benefit of anyone new here, I'm joking folks! From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed Apr 5 23:35:51 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: iOpener Update In-Reply-To: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F07302DCF@ALFEXC5>; from Anthony.Eros@compaq.com on Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 04:23:10PM -0500 References: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F07302DCF@ALFEXC5> Message-ID: <20000406003551.A21573@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 04:23:10PM -0500, Eros, Anthony wrote: > Has anyone else seen this? The only thing I get when I power up my iOpener > is a screen that says "Welcome! i-opener Out of the box. In the outlets. On > the counter. Nothin' but 'Net!" Nothing else. No other screens, or startup > messages. Control-alt-home, or home-4 do nothing. Press TAB as soon as you see this screen. It will switch to text mode and give you the usual Award BIOS startup screen. It will say press Del for setup, that's wrong, you need Ctrl/Alt/Esc, so you'll need to put on a keyboard that has an Esc key. John Wilson D Bit From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 6 00:30:45 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <002901bf9f7f$71149320$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 05, 2000 10:20:25 PM Message-ID: <200004060530.WAA04264@shell1.aracnet.com> > I really can't understand what all the hostility toward Microsoft is about. > If it weren't for the low prices resulting from the economy of scale, scale > which is enabled by the fact that Microsoft made computers simple enough to > use that the masses could and would use them. Well, in my case it started when I discovered that the copy of Visual Basic I bought wouldn't run under OS/2. This is DESPITE the fact that the box and manuals said it would! Then there is the issue of *stability*. Then there is the issue of *illegal* business practices. Then there is that question of innovation. Someone mind explaining why if I install software on a Microsoft system or make *very* minor changes I've got the reboot the @*& #$)@ thing?!?! I could go on and on, but I think you get the picture. > If you want to dog somebody, the go after DEC, (God be thanked that they're > gone!) with their antiquated technology always a generation behind everyone > else and with their ridiculous prices. Um, you do know that's flame bait in this group, and Microslop roasting is a regular hobby here? Personally I'll willingly pay more if it means I've got stability. > The only point I've seen in this thread that makes any sense at all is the > one about Visual Basic. If your really want that 6-7 figure income, you'll > learn it. I know at least half a dozen fellows who have taken that up. You know, I can't decide if that's a sad comment on the computer industry, or the United States. Zane From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu Apr 6 00:59:30 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <002901bf9f7f$71149320$0400c0a8@winbook> References: <200004060337.UAA30035@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000405225930.0093c640@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 22:20 05-04-2000 -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: >I really can't understand what all the hostility toward Microsoft is about. Simple. Arrogance, bloated and bug-ridden products that are overpriced, and unrestrained greed. >If it weren't for the low prices resulting from the economy of scale, scale >which is enabled by the fact that Microsoft made computers simple enough to >use that the masses could and would use them. And do you really think those things wouldn't have happened if Micro$platt had not come on the scene? Computers would have evolved to the point you described in any case. It's just a matter of who would have helped drive said evolution. >If you want to dog somebody, the go after DEC, (God be thanked that they're >gone!) with their antiquated technology always a generation behind everyone >else and with their ridiculous prices. I'll have you know, sir, that much of that "antiquated technology" is driving my intranet, and I'm darn proud to have it! I trust the MicroVAX III's and SPARC IPX's I have a lot more than I do much of the "commodity" PeeCee hardware that's flooded the market. Also, if DEC's stuff was so useless, who was it that had a true multitasking/multiuser computer and OS combo, in the mid-70's, that ran in less than 64K of RAM and could accomodate over a hundred users? Let's see a modern NT box do that. I don't think so! >If DEC had had their way you'd have to use a single flip=flop pair for which >they charged you 10^15 bucks per year and which broke twice a month so some >under-trained ignoramus could come around and pretend to fix the thing. You speak as though you think DEC would have been the only player in town. What about IBM? Digital Research? Kaypro? Commodore? Data General? Sun? Shall I go on? Also, I've met quite a few old-line FE's, mainly when I was working as a lab tech with an 11/70 in the late 70's. Every one of them was fully qualified to trouble-shoot to the component level, using O-scope, multimeter, and anything else they needed. Are you sure "under-trained ignoramus" fits that description? >Forget about the C++ or C or Delphi! These guys took 6 weeks to learn the >VB and now most of them have paid off their houses, cards, and credit cards >and vacation in Arruba in the winter and Alaska in the summer. at least >twice. The oldest of the guys I know doing this is 35 and worth over $10^7 And how many 80+ hour work weeks did it take him to get there? How many is he still doing? What good is a six or seven-figure income if you run yourself into the ground getting it, or maintaining it? Money does not last forever, nor can it buy true happiness or inner peace. I can only speak for myself, but sitting in front of a screen for 12+ hour days grinding out nothing but abstract code would drive me bonkers inside of a week. I prefer to work with REAL hardware, thank you. Things I can actually see, touch, and manipulate with hand tools, solder/desolder equipment, and a nice test bench full of instruments. If that means I don't get to vacation in Arruba and Alaska every year, so be it. At least I'll still have my sanity (and fewer worries about the Infernal Revenue Dis-Service). >net. Five years ago, he was begging me for work. How many guys do you know >who have net savings of over a year's gross after only five years? That >certainly indicates VB is not just a joke. No, it's not a joke. It is a useful language for what it does. But it is NOT suitable for every imaginable application. Each language -- C, C++, ADA, Pascal, whatever -- has its own strengths and weaknesses. I would hardly choose VB to write, say, code for an embedded microcontroller. Nor would I choose it if I just needed a simple program in ANSI BASIC for an older system. If I wanted to write a Windoze app, however, it would be my first choice. I'm curious... if you're so enamored of VB and PCs, and not so much of "antiquated technology," why are you even subscribed to this list? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 6 02:05:38 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000405225930.0093c640@mail.bluefeathertech.com> from "Bruce Lane" at Apr 05, 2000 10:59:30 PM Message-ID: <200004060705.AAA10441@shell1.aracnet.com> Bruce Lane wrote: > > I'll have you know, sir, that much of that "antiquated technology" is > driving my intranet, and I'm darn proud to have it! I trust the MicroVAX > III's and SPARC IPX's I have a lot more than I do much of the "commodity" > PeeCee hardware that's flooded the market. Wait a minute, you're running part of your Intranet on *non-DEC* gear? What is the matter with you? All the servers on mine are DEC! > Also, if DEC's stuff was so useless, who was it that had a true > multitasking/multiuser computer and OS combo, in the mid-70's, that ran in > less than 64K of RAM and could accomodate over a hundred users? > > Let's see a modern NT box do that. I don't think so! Um, hate to nit-pick, but I'd like to see an old DEC box with over a hundred users when it's only got 64K of RAM :^) Zane From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 6 02:21:22 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond! (healyzh@aracnet.com) References: <002901bf9f7f$71149320$0400c0a8@winbook> <200004060530.WAA04264@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <14572.15090.414254.25018@phaduka.neurotica.com> "What He Said." I was going to respond to Richard's email but you've said it all here, Zane. I stand in agreement. -Dave McGuire On April 5, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > I really can't understand what all the hostility toward Microsoft is about. > > If it weren't for the low prices resulting from the economy of scale, scale > > which is enabled by the fact that Microsoft made computers simple enough to > > use that the masses could and would use them. > > Well, in my case it started when I discovered that the copy of Visual Basic > I bought wouldn't run under OS/2. This is DESPITE the fact that the box and > manuals said it would! > > Then there is the issue of *stability*. > > Then there is the issue of *illegal* business practices. > > Then there is that question of innovation. > > Someone mind explaining why if I install software on a Microsoft system or > make *very* minor changes I've got the reboot the @*& #$)@ thing?!?! > > I could go on and on, but I think you get the picture. > > > If you want to dog somebody, the go after DEC, (God be thanked that they're > > gone!) with their antiquated technology always a generation behind everyone > > else and with their ridiculous prices. > > Um, you do know that's flame bait in this group, and Microslop roasting is a > regular hobby here? Personally I'll willingly pay more if it means I've got > stability. > > > The only point I've seen in this thread that makes any sense at all is the > > one about Visual Basic. If your really want that 6-7 figure income, you'll > > learn it. I know at least half a dozen fellows who have taken that up. > > You know, I can't decide if that's a sad comment on the computer industry, > or the United States. > > Zane From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Apr 6 02:58:37 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: Optimem 600 worm drives In-Reply-To: <200004060337.UAA30035@shell1.aracnet.com> References: from "Huw Davies" at Apr 06, 2000 12:22:44 PM Message-ID: I have NO idea what I will do with them, but I bought two brand new in the sealed static bags Optimem 600 internal drives (those old worm things). Most likely they will go on eBay, but if someone on the list is interested they should email me before Friday. Location is Orange, Cal. From cchd at kerberos.davies.net.au Thu Apr 6 05:13:13 2000 From: cchd at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <200004060530.WAA04264@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Apr 2000 healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > If you want to dog somebody, the go after DEC, (God be thanked that they're > > gone!) with their antiquated technology always a generation behind everyone > > else and with their ridiculous prices. > > Um, you do know that's flame bait in this group, and Microslop roasting is a > regular hobby here? Personally I'll willingly pay more if it means I've got > stability. I'm not going to comment as I'm biased (and employed by Compaq to support things like OpenVMS). > You know, I can't decide if that's a sad comment on the computer industry, > or the United States. No, it's not just the US. I've got a good friend earning about US$100 per hour doing VB programming here in good old Oz. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 6 09:35:10 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: References: <200004060530.WAA04264@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <200004061236.e36CaAR03748@mail2.siemens.de> > > You know, I can't decide if that's a sad comment on the computer industry, > > or the United States. > No, it's not just the US. I've got a good friend earning about US$100 > per hour doing VB programming here in good old Oz. It's everywhere - and I may now loose your respect, but I'm even issuing VB jobs ... For a lot of one time scrap VB isn't that bad - and I don't have to argue with my customer (Althou, it happened more than once that we did let te app be rewritten in C(++) later on). Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu Apr 6 07:59:37 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <200004060705.AAA10441@shell1.aracnet.com> References: <3.0.5.32.20000405225930.0093c640@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000406055937.0093d920@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 00:05 06-04-2000 -0700, you wrote: >Bruce Lane wrote: >> >> I'll have you know, sir, that much of that "antiquated technology" is >> driving my intranet, and I'm darn proud to have it! I trust the MicroVAX >> III's and SPARC IPX's I have a lot more than I do much of the "commodity" >> PeeCee hardware that's flooded the market. > >Wait a minute, you're running part of your Intranet on *non-DEC* gear? What >is the matter with you? All the servers on mine are DEC! Case of availability, Zane. I literally didn't have enough DEC boxen to do the job. That, and the Suns were cheap. >Um, hate to nit-pick, but I'd like to see an old DEC box with over a hundred >users when it's only got 64K of RAM :^) Well, I -was- referring to the base operating system. ;-) RSTS/E 7.x loaded nicely, with its libraries, in about 56K. The machine itself was an 11/34A with 128KWord (256KByte) total. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 6 10:04:45 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: iOpener Update In-Reply-To: References: <200004050703.AAA23678@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at Apr 5, 0 00:03:17 am Message-ID: <200004061305.e36D5kR21887@mail2.siemens.de> > > Well, I'm still in the waiting catagory, but just found out how they made > > the iOpener "unhackable". > > According to http://www.i-opener-linux.net/ they've snipped 4 of the pins on > > the IDE connector, epoxied in the BIOS, and updated the BIOS. > Well, soldering in a new IDE connector is not exactly hard (unless you're > a PC-goon who believes soldering is impossible on computer boards :-)). > And epoxy is not that hard to deal with -- most types break down at a > lower temperature than is used for soldering, so can be shifted fairly > easily. In fact, thats the chance to put the connector onto th back side, so you won't need a twisted cable. > > Also apparently they've put in a really ugly "Terms of Sale". > I don't know about the States, but over here, if I buy something, then I can > use it for any legal purpose, no matter what the manufacturer says. I can > make whatever modifications/adjustments I choose. The manufacturer can > refuse to support me, they can refuse to let me use the modified unit to > access their service (which could apply here), but they can't stop me > taking a soldering iron to it. Period. Jep, but still a company is able to sell something in different packages. Package a) a sole device USD 499, Package b) the device and a 24 Month contract USD 99 + 24 x 20 Compare it to the mobile phone market. An average phone is still about 500 Mark (150 GBP / 250 USD) but if you buy it with an contract, you get it as low as 1 Mark (30 penny/50 cents). Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 6 10:04:46 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: iOpener Update In-Reply-To: References: <200004050703.AAA23678@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <200004061305.e36D5kR21890@mail2.siemens.de> > >Ugh, then I found this site. http://bell-2216.cheg.uark.edu/~iopener/ > >Simply put netpliance has done some ugly hacking on these themselves. > >Wonder if thier 'hack proofing' will shorten the systems lifespan. > One can hope, tons of bad karma and just maybe a bug crept in during the > hacking of the bios that is now epoxied in, the company goes down the > toilet and all the original hackable systems show up for sale even cheaper > with no QNX to run on. Stock is already dropping to ~11 USD. In my mind it's again a typical example how a company is created to market a usefull idea, but soon the suit and business plan guys take over - of course they are missing the guts to stand a situation of free market. Everybody is yelling for 'Visions' but as soon as they apear, no business plan will allow them to survive... Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Apr 6 08:07:36 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: Working on my NIC-80 / NIC-1080 In-Reply-To: <200004060049.RAA20060@civic.hal.com> References: <008701bf9f5c$2c7a8da0$38731fd1@default> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000406080621.01a80b70@pc> At 05:49 PM 4/5/00 -0700, you wrote: > I've made a lot of progress on my old Nicolet machine >but I've come to a wall. I've found code to run the >original hard disk system ( called DEMON II ) but >I have a floppy based system and need DEMON/F. I've already given Sellam the e-mail address of a real person inside Nicolet who might know about these old systems. Why not send a polite e-mail to the support address on the Nicolet web page, and see what turns up? - John From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Apr 6 08:10:03 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <002901bf9f7f$71149320$0400c0a8@winbook> References: <200004060337.UAA30035@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000406080910.01999ef0@pc> At 10:20 PM 4/5/00 -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: >If you want to dog somebody, the go after DEC, (God be thanked that they're >gone!) with their antiquated technology always a generation behind everyone >else and with their ridiculous prices. I heard that DEC is making PCs and laptops these days that come bundled with Windows. - John From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 6 09:15:45 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <002901bf9f7f$71149320$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: > which is enabled by the fact that Microsoft made computers simple enough to > use that the masses could and would use them. If MS made cars it would be good to have AAA and a cell phone as youd use it. ;) > If you want to dog somebody, the go after DEC, (God be thanked that they're > gone!) with their antiquated technology always a generation behind everyone > else and with their ridiculous prices. Yep, and the copy of VMS5.5 on my MVII I got used from DEC in 1993 is still racking up hours... The 486 I got in 96, puked, the replacement puked and the need to reinstall MS out numbers the times I've backed up the VAX (typically monthly). > twice. The oldest of the guys I know doing this is 35 and worth over $10^7 > net. Five years ago, he was begging me for work. How many guys do you know > who have net savings of over a year's gross after only five years? That > certainly indicates VB is not just a joke. No, VB is a joke. That you can make money in goobs off it is not a joke. It is sad however that programming skills have fallen to that level... of course the last app I got here we prodded for two weeks before trashing it as unacceptably buggy. Oh, I maintain code here in VB, QB.45/dos and even GWBASIC. As a member of STAB most of that stuff is pretty horrid and only exceeded by the most cryptic of asm code. However being pragmatic person I know the stuff as greed is good. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 6 09:24:48 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000405225930.0093c640@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Bruce Lane wrote: > >I can only speak for myself, but sitting in front of a screen for 12+hour > days grinding out nothing but abstract code would drive me bonkers inside > of a week. I prefer to work with REAL hardware, thank you. Things I can > actually see, touch, and manipulate with hand tools, solder/desolder > equipment, and a nice test bench full of instruments. ;) Yep! >No, it's not a joke. It is a useful language for what it does. But it is > NOT suitable for every imaginable application. Each language -- C, C++, > ADA, Pascal, whatever -- has its own strengths and weaknesses. I would > hardly choose VB to write, say, code for an embedded microcontroller. Nor > would I choose it if I just needed a simple program in ANSI BASIC for an > older system. VB is almost as reliable as my copy of MITS basic 3.1 and also the copy of MITS basic 3.21 ($75 more) and so on... MS meant buggy code 1975 and still does. > I'm curious... if you're so enamored of VB and PCs, and not so much of > "antiquated technology," why are you even subscribed to this list? I'd bet for a break from insanity! ;) Richard has one point burried in there. VB good or bad is the accepted tool and as Zane pointed out a sad story indeed that it would be a standard at all. Allison From bill at chipware.com Thu Apr 6 09:28:49 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: OT: TFT interface Message-ID: <002f01bf9fd4$6c887ab0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Sorry for the off-topic post, but this is the best technical resource there is. Anyway, my company recently had an IBM Thinkpad 770 go dead. It was sent for repair and was finally deemed "cheeper to replace than repair". My office is the official company electronics/computer dumpster, so it ended up here. The note stuck to it by the repair place says "dead motherboard". I have dissassembled it and now have a nice 15" TFT panel. Now to the question: What is the interface to this thing? There are 14 wires going into it. Two are pretty obviously power for the backlight. They are at the bottom of the panel and were attached next to the slide pot that controlled the display brightness. The other 12 are attached to a connector in about the center of the panel. The IBM part number is 09J0940. Thanks From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 6 09:30:08 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <200004060705.AAA10441@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: > Um, hate to nit-pick, but I'd like to see an old DEC box with over a hundred > users when it's only got 64K of RAM :^) I used one. GRAF was the 11/70 in the DEC WJ01 facility in 1973 and was only 64k and all the users in the building ~100 were on it. Ran everything available under RSTS-11 with two RP03s (33mb ea). As a comparison it stacked up well compared to my 11/23 single user microRSTS system. Allison From Anthony.Eros at compaq.com Thu Apr 6 09:31:08 2000 From: Anthony.Eros at compaq.com (Eros, Anthony) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: iOpener Update Message-ID: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F07302F80@ALFEXC5> I'm getting closer! When I see the splash screen, I hit TAB and saw the following Award BIOS startup screen: Award Modular BIOS V4.51PG Copyright (C) 1984-99, Award Software, Inc. (IPS_TRI) EVALUATION ROM - NOT FOR SALE IDT WinChip C6 CPU at 200MHz Memory Test : 30720 + 2048K shared memory Award Plug and Play BIOS Extension v1.0A Copyright (C) 1999, Award Software, Inc. Suggested SDRAM CAS Latency Time is " 2 " Detecting IDE Primary Master ... None Detecting IDE Primary Slave ... SunDisk SDTB-128 Your i-opener is undergoing a necessary update. This may take 30 minutes or more. If for some reason the service is not working correctly within an hour, please contact Technical Support at 1-800-298-9525 to report the problem. Press DEL to enter SETUP 10/01/1999-VP4-686-IPC_VIAC-00 When I hit CTRL-ALT-HOME, I get a "login:" prompt. The HOME,4 combo doesn't get me a root prompt. So close, and yet so far!! :-) -- Tony > ---------- > From: John Wilson[SMTP:wilson@dbit.dbit.com] > Reply To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 12:35 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: iOpener Update > > On Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 04:23:10PM -0500, Eros, Anthony wrote: > > Has anyone else seen this? The only thing I get when I power up my > iOpener > > is a screen that says "Welcome! i-opener Out of the box. In the > outlets. On > > the counter. Nothin' but 'Net!" Nothing else. No other screens, or > startup > > messages. Control-alt-home, or home-4 do nothing. > > Press TAB as soon as you see this screen. It will switch to text mode > and give you the usual Award BIOS startup screen. It will say press Del > for setup, that's wrong, you need Ctrl/Alt/Esc, so you'll need to put on a > keyboard that has an Esc key. > > John Wilson > D Bit > From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 6 09:35:46 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: iOpener Update In-Reply-To: <200004061305.e36D5kR21887@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: > In fact, thats the chance to put the connector onto th back > side, so you won't need a twisted cable. Only if you can get the epoxy off. > Package a) a sole device USD 499, > Package b) the device and a 24 Month contract USD 99 + 24 x 20 Or the common package C) box is part of the service and "rented". Cable boxes especially encoded ones are that case here (usa). Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 6 09:43:27 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000406080910.01999ef0@pc> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, John Foust wrote: > At 10:20 PM 4/5/00 -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >If you want to dog somebody, the go after DEC, (God be thanked that they're > >gone!) with their antiquated technology always a generation behind everyone > >else and with their ridiculous prices. > > I heard that DEC is making PCs and laptops these days that come bundled > with Windows. > > - John Better yet... and on topic. DIX eithernet. DIX stands for the DEC, Xerox, Intel and the standard for 10B5 fatwire is 1970s. Guess that was backward thinking. DEC internal by 1983 had the second largest WAN only exceeded by Dupont (DEC customer then). In 1983 I could send Email and files to Oz and Europe directly. So what if the VAX was the first 32bit superminicomputer or that Microvax was the first production 32bit CISC micro around and one hell of a lot faster than the 386. Allison From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Apr 6 11:49:25 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: iOpener Update In-Reply-To: References: <200004061305.e36D5kR21887@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <200004061450.e36EoPR18897@mail2.siemens.de> > > Package a) a sole device USD 499, > > Package b) the device and a 24 Month contract USD 99 + 24 x 20 > Or the common package C) box is part of the service and "rented". Cable > boxes especially encoded ones are that case here (usa). Well, not in Germany - if you rent out eq, your customer recives the RIGHT to get a working unit and so on ... and you are caught as long as the contract is running - while when selling, the you 'only' have to do the usual warenty... That's why almost all of this kind is done by selling with en enclosed subscription (like iOpener). Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Thu Apr 6 09:54:36 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <200004060530.WAA04264@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <000301bf9fd8$07be2f40$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> >From: healyzh@aracnet.com >> If you want to dog somebody, the go after DEC, (God be thanked that they're >> gone!) with their antiquated technology always a generation behind everyone >> else and with their ridiculous prices. >Um, you do know that's flame bait in this group, and Microslop roasting is a >regular hobby here? Personally I'll willingly pay more if it means I've got >stability. I can't believe some of the threads on this list. One is the OTpener, an other is DEC roasting. I used DEC 1980-1989 and Windows 1994-2000 and I think I crashed the DEC Once in that whole time. When I reported it the DEC engineers appeared gratis and the crash didn't happen again. I would constantly discover things about the DEC software that would bring new positive surprises (Oh it does that too?) (THAT can even work?) Another big plus: their documentation was clear and open. With windows it's more like (What's it doing now?... wait... wait... crash). With MS the surprises are 90% negative and the positive ones (few) are finding after much trial and error (No, do This first, then that.) that advertised features can be used productively, but never easily. DEC was quality at quality prices. I think there's Another scandal awaiting MS regarding reliability. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu Apr 6 11:09:18 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000405225930.0093c640@mail.bluefeathertech.com> from Bruce Lane at "Apr 5, 2000 10:59:30 pm" Message-ID: <200004061609.MAA26290@bg-tc-ppp675.monmouth.com> > Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies wrote: > > Also, I've met quite a few old-line FE's, mainly when I was working as a > lab tech with an 11/70 in the late 70's. Every one of them was fully > qualified to trouble-shoot to the component level, using O-scope, > multimeter, and anything else they needed. Are you sure "under-trained > ignoramus" fits that description? Yeah, but the quality dropped out in the early to mid 80's when they figured the diags would do the work and all they'd need is a parts changer. And I can say that 'cause I WAS the parts changer from 81-86. DEC made great stuff... as did IBM. The one thing people forget is the reliability on the average WD drive or Maxtor is ten times that of an RP06. The average retail quality PC is 10 times better than the core memory and early mos memory boxes of yesteryear. The chips are more reliable, the hardware's faster. The one main problem is the software quality... I've run my FreeBSD PC about as long as I've seen an 11/780 run in the '80-88 timeframe with the same uptime as VAX/VMS a v3.5 or Ultrix. I'm not using Windows to do this, however. Let's not knock the PC architecture. PCI bus is fine... DIMMS are ok (especially ECC ones). The CPU screams. The Symbios and Adaptec SCSI cards are reliable and affordable. There's nothing as slick as an HSC50 for PC's YET. However, they raid quickly and cheaply. No daily reboots here... on a cheap K6-2 PC platform (FIC 503+) last shutdown was for a thunderstorm. FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i4got.pechter.dyndns.org 12:06PM up 9 days, 3:45, 4 users, load averages: 0.03, 0.21, 0.19 The Sparc ELC's doing a netbsd build now... Going to go to 1.4.2 from 1.4.1 8-) Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 6 11:08:30 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: <200004060530.WAA04264@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <000901bf9fe2$60f29880$0400c0a8@winbook> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 11:30 PM Subject: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond! > > I really can't understand what all the hostility toward Microsoft is about. > > If it weren't for the low prices resulting from the economy of scale, scale > > which is enabled by the fact that Microsoft made computers simple enough to > > use that the masses could and would use them. > > Well, in my case it started when I discovered that the copy of Visual Basic > I bought wouldn't run under OS/2. This is DESPITE the fact that the box and > manuals said it would! > That's something one would have to take up with the vendors of OS/2, right? > > Then there is the issue of *stability*. > I'm not sure what you mean by this. This particular system ( the one I use for my email, etc) has been "up" without a hitch for three years without a problem. I've never seen reason to cuss it. The key is that I don't try to make it do stuff for which it wasn't intended. The folks I see having problems with their MS-OS-based systems generally are the ones that (1) hand around the "chat" rooms (where their computers get "social diseases"), (2) try to squeeze more performance out of their computers by violating the components' specifications, (3) try to get their computers to do other sorts of things for which they (or their software) weren't intended. Now, that's not to say it doesn't happen otherwise, but from where I sit, that's what I see. > > Then there is the issue of *illegal* business practices. > Frankly, there's still room for doubt. It will be impossible to prove, of course, but that's because the means with which to detect these practices came about because of the evolution of the means with which to detect them. If there's really illegal activity, they'll get what they deserve, whoever "they" are. > > Then there is that question of innovation. > Having been involved with computers since the '60's I'd say this is a given. Nothing has been host to more innovation than the microcomputer business. Now, I don't know what you're pointing out, but if you know of anyone who's bringing more innovation to the masses, you could tell me about it. > > Someone mind explaining why if I install software on a Microsoft system or > make *very* minor changes I've got the reboot the @*& #$)@ thing?!?! > I've never wanted to become an expert on *NIX and its kin, but IIRC, if you make any changes to the system you not only have to restart the system, you have to recompile several modules, including, in some cases, the kernel. I remember attaching a serial I/O card to a LINUX box once, wherein I had to recompile (*GETTY) and restart several times. Adding a port to windows normally didn't require a last time I did it. Of course, it is sometimes necessary to restart the system if you have to add hardware, since nobody recommends doing that without first shutting off the power. > I could go on and on, but I think you get the picture. > > > If you want to dog somebody, the go after DEC, (God be thanked that they're > > gone!) with their antiquated technology always a generation behind everyone > > else and with their ridiculous prices. > > Um, you do know that's flame bait in this group, and Microslop roasting is a > regular hobby here? Personally I'll willingly pay more if it means I've got > stability. > Well, the cost differential was larger than the cost of the PC machines I used to demonstrate what a poor choice the uVAXII was as a platform during my last stint in the aerospace industry. THE JPL guys liked the uVAX-II so they used it to replace the Apple-][ that was originally designed into a military-oriented project. I wouldn't argue that the uVAX-II didn't do better than the Apple-][, but their ESDI interface didn't outperform SCSI, which they claimed it did, and the high-res graphics cards we were told to use in the uVax-II cost as much as the entire uVAX-II with all the other peripherals. A comparable card from the same vendor but designed for the PC/AT cost only $600. Not all cases are so extreme, but it's the extremes that tend to be remembered. It's also no surprise that DEC seems to have gone out of their way, during the early days of widespread internet use (1985-1988). to make their LAN boards incompatible with anyone else's. They also tweaked their protocols to weaken their own networking system so people wouldn't be tempted to mix and match. > > > The only point I've seen in this thread that makes any sense at all is the > > one about Visual Basic. If your really want that 6-7 figure income, you'll > > learn it. I know at least half a dozen fellows who have taken that up. > > You know, I can't decide if that's a sad comment on the computer industry, > or the United States. > I guess it just says that when there's a tool that gets the job done, it makes sense to learn how to use it as opposed to sticking one's nose in the air because it seems too "unsophisticated". What's more, people pay for the process of getting the job done. They don't want to pay for doing it the "hard" way. > > Zane From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Apr 6 11:08:43 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: iOpener Update Message-ID: <000406120843.2020015e@trailing-edge.com> > > Package a) a sole device USD 499, > > Package b) the device and a 24 Month contract USD 99 + 24 x 20 > Or the common package C) box is part of the service and "rented". Cable > boxes especially encoded ones are that case here (usa). Yeah, but there are many places in the US where it is essentially illegal to hook your own cable descrambler to the cable line, not too much different than the old Bell System limits on third-party equipment hooked to phone lines. There are some attractions to cheap and uniform guaranteed service for all, but I don't think I want Internet access to become the monopoly that phone service used to be or cable service is today. It's bad enough with some ISP's threatening that they only support Microsoft Windows and that if you've got trouble accessing their service from any other OS you're out of luck. Actually DSL from some companies is already worse than that - you have to have a PCI-bus PC-clone running Windows to use their service, because the only interface device that will work requires that hardware configuration and the only drivers available are for MS-Windows. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From transit at lerctr.org Thu Apr 6 11:10:35 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: iOpener Update In-Reply-To: <200004061450.e36EoPR18897@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: >From ZDNet: http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2522476,00.html Probably nothing we don't already know, but the "talkback" section might be interesting . . . ------------------------------------------------------------------ Charles P. Hobbs transit@lerctr.org From hallsf at alfredtech.edu Thu Apr 6 12:14:25 2000 From: hallsf at alfredtech.edu (Scott F. Hall) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:34 2005 Subject: NewSubjectSuns References: <200004061305.e36D5kR21887@mail2.siemens.de> <200004061450.e36EoPR18897@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <38ECC5F1.D5E8091C@alfredtech.edu> I'm new to this discussion group. Is it okay to discuss old machines up for sale? Please forgive me this once if it's NOT appropriate to talk about stuff for sale. I'm not a spammer trying to make money. I do have a truckload of early 1990s Sun gear for s/he who wants it (a 470 server and about 20 sparc1/IPC/IPX stations and a lot of extra stuff thrown in--monitors, printers, etc.). This is gear the college I work at wants to get rid of and it should, of course, go to a loving home not a dumpster! If you're anywhere near western NY state, you could pick it up with a big truck. The college wants money for it, of course, but not much. Write me at hallsf@alfredtech.edu if this interests you. Scott Hall From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 6 11:34:30 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:35 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: <200004060337.UAA30035@shell1.aracnet.com> <3.0.5.32.20000405225930.0093c640@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <001501bf9fe5$fd0bcf40$0400c0a8@winbook> Please see embedded comments below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce Lane To: Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 11:59 PM Subject: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond! > At 22:20 05-04-2000 -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > >I really can't understand what all the hostility toward Microsoft is about. > > Simple. Arrogance, bloated and bug-ridden products that are overpriced, > and unrestrained greed. > Well, there's plenty of arrogance to go around. > > >If it weren't for the low prices resulting from the economy of scale, scale > >which is enabled by the fact that Microsoft made computers simple enough to > >use that the masses could and would use them. > There were plenty of other players on the scene. Just look at DEC. They wanted to make computers more costly, less convenient, less accessible. It's justice that they're history! They weren't alone in this and I expect some of the others, notably IBM, to go away eventually as well, though probably not as kindly as DEC went. They, at least, are working on bringing new technology to the market, rather than repainting the old stuff and trumpeting that the new color made it new technology. > > And do you really think those things wouldn't have happened if Micro$platt > had not come on the scene? > > Computers would have evolved to the point you described in any case. It's > just a matter of who would have helped drive said evolution. > > >If you want to dog somebody, the go after DEC, (God be thanked that they're > >gone!) with their antiquated technology always a generation behind everyone > >else and with their ridiculous prices. > > I'll have you know, sir, that much of that "antiquated technology" is > driving my intranet, and I'm darn proud to have it! I trust the MicroVAX > III's and SPARC IPX's I have a lot more than I do much of the "commodity" > PeeCee hardware that's flooded the market. > > Also, if DEC's stuff was so useless, who was it that had a true > multitasking/multiuser computer and OS combo, in the mid-70's, that ran in > less than 64K of RAM and could accomodate over a hundred users? > Now if they had simply made their computers evolve beyond that point, particularly in the economic aspect. What did the complete computer cost in Y2K dollars? Include the OS, the rotating memory, etc, assuming you had nothing to start with. > > Let's see a modern NT box do that. I don't think so! > I never said they were perfect. Nonetheless, I see more NT boxes than VMS ones these days. > > >If DEC had had their way you'd have to use a single flip=flop pair for which > >they charged you 10^15 bucks per year and which broke twice a month so some > >under-trained ignoramus could come around and pretend to fix the thing. > > You speak as though you think DEC would have been the only player in town. > What about IBM? Digital Research? Kaypro? Commodore? Data General? Sun? > Shall I go on? > > Also, I've met quite a few old-line FE's, mainly when I was working as a > lab tech with an 11/70 in the late 70's. Every one of them was fully > qualified to trouble-shoot to the component level, using O-scope, > multimeter, and anything else they needed. Are you sure "under-trained > ignoramus" fits that description? > I know a few who were pretty smart as well, but I never got to see them work. The ones I saw couldn't do what you describe, and probably would have had problems with any task. My experience with one client back in the early '80's when DEC was purporedly at its finest, was the DEC couldn't ship two identically configured systems. We had redundancy requirements and someone had designed hardware that figured out whether a given system was malfunctioning and discarded its outputs if they were wrong. (don't ask me how!) What was required was that two 11/44's be setup identically in every way, both hardware and software. That doesn't strike me as particularly challenging, but I guess it was. Ultimately, the two 11/44's, et al, were replaced with three APPLE-]['s. That was much more straightforward, apparently. > > >Forget about the C++ or C or Delphi! These guys took 6 weeks to learn the > >VB and now most of them have paid off their houses, cards, and credit cards > >and vacation in Arruba in the winter and Alaska in the summer. at least > >twice. The oldest of the guys I know doing this is 35 and worth over $10^7 > > And how many 80+ hour work weeks did it take him to get there? How many is > he still doing? What good is a six or seven-figure income if you run > yourself into the ground getting it, or maintaining it? Money does not last > forever, nor can it buy true happiness or inner peace. > Well, if you're not willing to do what the other guy won't you don't deserve the big bucks. I've worked long hours nearly all my life and it's never made me rich, though. In retrospect, I should have learned to use VB, but I didn't want to be a programmer. > > I can only speak for myself, but sitting in front of a screen for 12+ hour > days grinding out nothing but abstract code would drive me bonkers inside > of a week. I prefer to work with REAL hardware, thank you. Things I can > actually see, touch, and manipulate with hand tools, solder/desolder > equipment, and a nice test bench full of instruments. > > If that means I don't get to vacation in Arruba and Alaska every year, so > be it. At least I'll still have my sanity (and fewer worries about the > Infernal Revenue Dis-Service). > > >net. Five years ago, he was begging me for work. How many guys do you know > >who have net savings of over a year's gross after only five years? That > >certainly indicates VB is not just a joke. > > No, it's not a joke. It is a useful language for what it does. But it is > NOT suitable for every imaginable application. Each language -- C, C++, > ADA, Pascal, whatever -- has its own strengths and weaknesses. I would > hardly choose VB to write, say, code for an embedded microcontroller. Nor > would I choose it if I just needed a simple program in ANSI BASIC for an > older system. > There is a large class of problems for which VB is the obvious solution. If you try to approach them with other tools they may ultimately be solved. These fellows to whom I referred don't get paid for solving the problem alone. They get paid for doing it QUICKLY. One very impressive case I remember was one in which one of my former business partners had worked on a project for nearly six months and looked like he was going to miss his delivery. In half a day with one of my former associates, for whom, incidentally, I had done work since then, showed him how to solve his entire problem, starting from scratch in VB, and consuming less than a day's effort. That doesn't say VB is wonderful, but it does say it's appropriate for some things, don't you agree? > > If I wanted to write a Windoze app, however, it would be my first choice. > > I'm curious... if you're so enamored of VB and PCs, and not so much of > "antiquated technology," why are you even subscribed to this list? > I like the old stuff because you have control of everything that went on. I also recognize that these old timers are still capable of doing lots of useful work. What's more, the direction in which PC hardware is headed suggests that the PC is no longer an appropriate platform for doing instrumentation, control, telelmetry, etc, as it once was. In another year or two, it will be a little pizza box or built into a monitor enclosure with just the I/O that the majority wants. That's the natural consequence of the PC having found its ultimate niche in the universe. One might say that the old S-100 systems were more broadly applicable than the PC systems of today, Microsoft was in them, too, however. > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies > http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com > Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 > "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our > own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 6 11:38:55 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:35 2005 Subject: Optimem 600 worm drives References: from"Huw Davies" at Apr 06, 2000 12:22:44 PM Message-ID: <002501bf9fe6$9c1e7740$0400c0a8@winbook> I may still have some documentation, etc, for Optimem hardware. I once had the task of integrating them in to a microVAX in place of the TK50. If the doc's turn up in the next few days, I'll let you know. They may help with the eBay auction. They subsequently went under and were acquired by Sperry, IIRC. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ford To: Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 1:58 AM Subject: Optimem 600 worm drives > I have NO idea what I will do with them, but I bought two brand new in the > sealed static bags Optimem 600 internal drives (those old worm things). > Most likely they will go on eBay, but if someone on the list is interested > they should email me before Friday. Location is Orange, Cal. > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 6 11:46:00 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:35 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: Message-ID: <004901bf9fe7$9a121000$0400c0a8@winbook> Well, Allison, at least you've got the VB under your belt! I wish I'd been that smart some 10 years back. I was too much of a hardware snob to catch the VB wave, which seems to make all these young guys retire before they're 40. It's probably not fun, since the class of things it handles well is quite narrow, but they typcially make in half a day what I make in a week of billable time. If VB's a joke, I guess it's a joke on me. Perhaps it's a joke on you, too. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 8:15 AM Subject: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond! > > which is enabled by the fact that Microsoft made computers simple enough to > > use that the masses could and would use them. > > If MS made cars it would be good to have AAA and a cell phone as youd use > it. ;) > > > If you want to dog somebody, the go after DEC, (God be thanked that they're > > gone!) with their antiquated technology always a generation behind everyone > > else and with their ridiculous prices. > > Yep, and the copy of VMS5.5 on my MVII I got used from DEC in 1993 is > still racking up hours... The 486 I got in 96, puked, the replacement > puked and the need to reinstall MS out numbers the times I've backed up > the VAX (typically monthly). > > > twice. The oldest of the guys I know doing this is 35 and worth over $10^7 > > net. Five years ago, he was begging me for work. How many guys do you know > > who have net savings of over a year's gross after only five years? That > > certainly indicates VB is not just a joke. > > No, VB is a joke. That you can make money in goobs off it is not a joke. > It is sad however that programming skills have fallen to that level... of > course the last app I got here we prodded for two weeks before trashing it > as unacceptably buggy. > > Oh, I maintain code here in VB, QB.45/dos and even GWBASIC. As a member > of STAB most of that stuff is pretty horrid and only exceeded by the most > cryptic of asm code. However being pragmatic person I know the stuff as > greed is good. > > Allison > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 6 11:51:27 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:35 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: Message-ID: <005101bf9fe8$5c13e520$0400c0a8@winbook> You can't blame Microsoft for allowing YOU to write buggy code. I've never been shown a case where it's impossible to write the code so it correctly because of a limitation on the language's interpreter or compiler. It may not help you do things the way you'd like, but I've never been shown a case where it forces you to write bug-infested code. You may be onto something . . . maybe I have cracked up . . . I'm probably not alone, though. You did catch the point that VB is often used simply as a band-aid. It does this well. If you work as a consultant, you don't work for engineers, you work for managers. They like to point out a problem and have you fix it. No muss, no fuss, just dispatch the problem in the quickest way possible. That ends up costing them less most of the time. Sometimes it's not the right approach. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 8:24 AM Subject: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond! > On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Bruce Lane wrote: > > > >I can only speak for myself, but sitting in front of a screen for 12+hour > > days grinding out nothing but abstract code would drive me bonkers inside > > of a week. I prefer to work with REAL hardware, thank you. Things I can > > actually see, touch, and manipulate with hand tools, solder/desolder > > equipment, and a nice test bench full of instruments. > > ;) Yep! > > >No, it's not a joke. It is a useful language for what it does. But it is > > NOT suitable for every imaginable application. Each language -- C, C++, > > ADA, Pascal, whatever -- has its own strengths and weaknesses. I would > > hardly choose VB to write, say, code for an embedded microcontroller. Nor > > would I choose it if I just needed a simple program in ANSI BASIC for an > > older system. > > VB is almost as reliable as my copy of MITS basic 3.1 and also the copy > of MITS basic 3.21 ($75 more) and so on... MS meant buggy code 1975 and > still does. > > > I'm curious... if you're so enamored of VB and PCs, and not so much of > > "antiquated technology," why are you even subscribed to this list? > > I'd bet for a break from insanity! ;) > > Richard has one point burried in there. VB good or bad is the accepted > tool and as Zane pointed out a sad story indeed that it would be a > standard at all. > > Allison > > From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu Apr 6 12:00:56 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:35 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <000901bf9fe2$60f29880$0400c0a8@winbook> from Richard Erlacher at "Apr 6, 2000 10:08:30 am" Message-ID: <200004061700.NAA26397@bg-tc-ppp675.monmouth.com> > That's something one would have to take up with the vendors of OS/2, right? Nope the VB and Foxpro used to say they'd work under OS/2 -- but they didn't. False advertising on the box? > > > > Then there is the issue of *stability*. > > > for my email, etc) has been "up" without a hitch for three years without a > problem. I've never seen reason to cuss it. The key is that I don't try to > make it do stuff for which it wasn't intended. > > The folks I see having problems with their MS-OS-based systems generally are > the ones that (1) hand around the "chat" rooms (where their computers get > "social diseases"), (2) try to squeeze more performance out of their > computers by violating the components' specifications, (3) try to get their > computers to do other sorts of things for which they (or their software) > weren't intended. Now, that's not to say it doesn't happen otherwise, but > from where I sit, that's what I see. I do none of the above but my Win95 desktop intermittantly blows chunks and drops ethernet IP connectivity. I've seen this less often with Win98... > > Then there is that question of innovation. > > > Having been involved with computers since the '60's I'd say this is a given. > Nothing has been host to more innovation than the microcomputer business. > Now, I don't know what you're pointing out, but if you know of anyone who's > bringing more innovation to the masses, you could tell me about it. Give me a list of the innovations that didn't come out of Minis, Mainframes or Workstations first. > > > > Someone mind explaining why if I install software on a Microsoft system or > > make *very* minor changes I've got the reboot the @*& #$)@ thing?!?! > > > I've never wanted to become an expert on *NIX and its kin, but IIRC, if you > make any changes to the system you not only have to restart the system, you > have to recompile several modules, including, in some cases, the kernel. If you're adding new device driver -- maybe. Not if the one was alread compiled for that kernel. Meanwhile why does every non-Win2000 box need to reboot to change an IP address or nameserver address? > > Not all cases are so extreme, but it's the extremes that tend to be > remembered. It's also no surprise that DEC seems to have gone out of their > way, during the early days of widespread internet use (1985-1988). to make > their LAN boards incompatible with anyone else's. They also tweaked their > protocols to weaken their own networking system so people wouldn't be > tempted to mix and match. Examples of the lan board incompatibility please. Also, some explanation of the protocol issue so I can see what you mean-- X.25, DECnet Phase III, DECnet Phase IV? Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 6 11:56:30 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:35 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <000901bf9fe2$60f29880$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: > The folks I see having problems with their MS-OS-based systems generally are > the ones that (1) hand around the "chat" rooms (where their computers get > "social diseases"), (2) try to squeeze more performance out of their > computers by violating the components' specifications, (3) try to get their > computers to do other sorts of things for which they (or their software) > weren't intended. Now, that's not to say it doesn't happen otherwise, but > from where I sit, that's what I see. Or an app like Netscape falls over and takes out the OS. For a cpu with protected mode, and an os that mutters things about that it seems odd that an app failing kills the os! > > Someone mind explaining why if I install software on a Microsoft system or > > make *very* minor changes I've got the reboot the @*& #$)@ thing?!?! many OSs have this, VMS does under fewer cases though as do NT4. Linux/freebsd is better than UNIX(and kin) three years ago. > Well, the cost differential was larger than the cost of the PC machines I > used to demonstrate what a poor choice the uVAXII was as a platform during > my last stint in the aerospace industry. THE JPL guys liked the uVAX-II so > they used it to replace the Apple-][ that was originally designed into a > military-oriented project. I wouldn't argue that the uVAX-II didn't do > better than the Apple-][, but their ESDI interface didn't outperform SCSI, What EDSI? DEC never had one! The RQDX3 is MSCP/ST506 MFM and not considered a perfromer but, MFM drives really arent either. > which they claimed it did, and the high-res graphics cards we were told to > use in the uVax-II cost as much as the entire uVAX-II with all the other > peripherals. A comparable card from the same vendor but designed for the > PC/AT cost only $600. Back then (1988) I could not get a 1280x1024x8 card for a PC. I was however running one on the GPX. I might add with a 21" color tube. > Not all cases are so extreme, but it's the extremes that tend to be > remembered. It's also no surprise that DEC seems to have gone out of their > way, during the early days of widespread internet use (1985-1988). to make > their LAN boards incompatible with anyone else's. They also tweaked their > protocols to weaken their own networking system so people wouldn't be > tempted to mix and match. IP was not the rule until years after DECnet phaseIII and when IP started to become more wide spread there was PhaseIV and PHASEV decnet which was routable, capable of doing IP over decnet and a lot of other tricks that PCs needed. PCs under winders were doing lanman then. > I guess it just says that when there's a tool that gets the job done, it > makes sense to learn how to use it as opposed to sticking one's nose in the > air because it seems too "unsophisticated". What's more, people pay for the > process of getting the job done. They don't want to pay for doing it the > "hard" way. All the world is a nail when all you got is a hammer. Allison From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 6 12:05:45 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:35 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: <000301bf9fd8$07be2f40$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <006901bf9fea$5dc4b780$0400c0a8@winbook> This is one with which I have to agree, at least somewhat. The DEC stuff, back when they were in their prime, in the '70's and early '80's, did good work. They didn't field the latest technology in many cases, since they wanted to be sure of what they shipped, but they didn't pass on the latest cost savings as a result. Back then the older stuff was costlier than what was new. I also agree that since Microsoft's work is an apparent reflection of the "state-of-the-art" in software, I have to belive that there will be repercussions dealing with quality and with the inclusion of unnecessary features, e.g. the flight-simulator/billboard module included in one release of Excel, etc. I'd also point out, howver, that what's made them wildly successful is that they've made the computer accessible to people who don't want to become experts. It's just an appliance to them, like the TV or microwave oven. The fact that most people can tolerate this level of reliability (however one perceives it) is to their credit, however. Just to remind everyone, the system I'm using to process my email has never "crashed" or behaved anomalously in any way. Of course, it's a notebook, so I haven't had much motive to stick my hands inside. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: John Allain To: Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 8:54 AM Subject: RE: !Re: Nuke Redmond! > > > >From: healyzh@aracnet.com > > >> If you want to dog somebody, the go after DEC, (God be thanked that > they're > >> gone!) with their antiquated technology always a generation behind > everyone > >> else and with their ridiculous prices. > > >Um, you do know that's flame bait in this group, and Microslop roasting is > a > >regular hobby here? Personally I'll willingly pay more if it means I've > got > >stability. > > > I can't believe some of the threads on this list. One is the > OTpener, an other is DEC roasting. I used DEC 1980-1989 and > Windows 1994-2000 and I think I crashed the DEC Once in that > whole time. When I reported it the DEC engineers appeared > gratis and the crash didn't happen again. I would constantly > discover things about the DEC software that would bring new > positive surprises (Oh it does that too?) (THAT can even work?) > Another big plus: their documentation was clear and open. > > With windows it's more like (What's it doing now?... wait... > wait... crash). With MS the surprises are 90% negative > and the positive ones (few) are finding after much trial > and error (No, do This first, then that.) that advertised > features can be used productively, but never easily. > > DEC was quality at quality prices. > I think there's Another scandal awaiting MS > regarding reliability. > > From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 6 12:04:24 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:35 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <004901bf9fe7$9a121000$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Well, Allison, at least you've got the VB under your belt! I wish I'd been > that smart some 10 years back. I was too much of a hardware snob to catch You know why? To clean up other people "code" and thats quoted for sacrasm! Hate using it. > the VB wave, which seems to make all these young guys retire before they're > 40. It's probably not fun, since the class of things it handles well is > quite narrow, but they typcially make in half a day what I make in a week of > billable time. There is that. Me, I have to be able to hit the floor running on ANY OS, progamming language or CPU. > If VB's a joke, I guess it's a joke on me. Perhaps it's a joke on you, too. My job is results, not being a VB lover. I use what is there, mandated or cheap. Because I can speak other languages I don't ahve to worry if the industry decides tomorrow that visualfraq is now the hot thing and VB is passe`. Allison From elvey at hal.com Thu Apr 6 12:06:54 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:35 2005 Subject: Working on my NIC-80 / NIC-1080 In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000406080621.01a80b70@pc> Message-ID: <200004061706.KAA06204@civic.hal.com> John Foust wrote: > At 05:49 PM 4/5/00 -0700, you wrote: > > I've made a lot of progress on my old Nicolet machine > >but I've come to a wall. I've found code to run the > >original hard disk system ( called DEMON II ) but > >I have a floppy based system and need DEMON/F. > > I've already given Sellam the e-mail address of a real person > inside Nicolet who might know about these old systems. Why not > send a polite e-mail to the support address on the Nicolet web > page, and see what turns up? > > - John Hi John Sellam has said that he has not gotten anywhere with his correspondence with Nicolet. I've sent a message to someone there also. I was told that these machines had been retired and that it would cost $$$ to dig through the archived material to find it. The reply was friendly but it didn't give me much hope. The machine, that Sellam has, was in use until '96. This gives me hope that someone may still be running on of these someplace or at least have one stashed in the storage room. I'm sure they were expensive so I don't think anyone would just junk it unless it was broken. Sellam had acquired a box load of tapes that I have been going through. It has all kinds of good stuff but I have not seen a DEMON/F in it anywhere. I keep hoping. I've found a few tapes stuck together( old rubber bands ). Maybe it will show up. I've been reading the tapes and cataloging them for Sellam. Once I have them on my PC I can easily load them into the NIC-80. Anyway, it look like my best hope is for someone to find one of these at some university. I guess this is what historians must go through when trying to find the real facts about history. Dwight From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 6 12:07:22 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:35 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <005101bf9fe8$5c13e520$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > You can't blame Microsoft for allowing YOU to write buggy code. I've never > been shown a case where it's impossible to write the code so it correctly Sure I can. Buggy libs and DLLs, IDEs that work sorta. This is true for any language that inherent bugs that you have to first find to program around or avoid. > You did catch the point that VB is often used simply as a band-aid. It does > this well. If you work as a consultant, you don't work for engineers, you > work for managers. They like to point out a problem and have you fix it. > No muss, no fuss, just dispatch the problem in the quickest way possible. > That ends up costing them less most of the time. Sometimes it's not the > right approach. Yep! Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 6 12:14:16 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:35 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <200004061700.NAA26397@bg-tc-ppp675.monmouth.com> Message-ID: > I do none of the above but my Win95 desktop intermittantly blows > chunks and drops ethernet IP connectivity. I've seen this less often > with Win98... NT4 is better still. However don't run netbuei (lanman) and IPX with IP or you have a meltdown. Getting W9x or NT to play well with a real unix/linux node is more fun. Try this for fun printserver qube running netbuei so a few W95C boxen need netbuei and IP... then the desktops start disappearing or rearranging themselves due to redmonds broken IP cossing up with netbuei. back to plain IP. gag! Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 6 12:34:24 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:35 2005 Subject: NewSubjectSuns In-Reply-To: <38ECC5F1.D5E8091C@alfredtech.edu> from "Scott F. Hall" at Apr 6, 0 12:14:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 423 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000406/66578097/attachment.ksh From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Apr 6 12:42:32 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:35 2005 Subject: iOpener Update In-Reply-To: <000406120843.2020015e@trailing-edge.com>; from CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com on Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 12:08:43PM -0400 References: <000406120843.2020015e@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20000406134232.A23767@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 12:08:43PM -0400, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > Yeah, but there are many places in the US where it is essentially illegal > to hook your own cable descrambler to the cable line, not too much different > than the old Bell System limits on third-party equipment hooked to phone > lines. It hurts my head trying to understand this. How the cable companies get their little whims written into law is beyond me. I mean anything's silly if you look close enough -- suppose my TV happens to be switchable to accept a video signal of either polarity (or whatever it is), how is it that that makes me a *criminal*? When the real issue is that the cable companies were looking for a cheapskate way to segment their customers w/o having per-customer wiring, so instead of giving me what I actually pay for, they give everyone *everything* and then get laws pushed through to stop us from using it. So they get to decide exactly what equipment I may use to measure the voltage on the wire I'm paying for... > It's bad enough > with some ISP's threatening that they only support Microsoft Windows > and that if you've got trouble accessing their service from any other > OS you're out of luck. The ISP that I use at home (Time Warner) is one of those, and of course the funny thing is that their service in fact works fine with Linux, but when used with Windows NT (where it's guaranteed to work, between crashes anyway), it has general day-to-day flakiness plus occasionally it entirely stops working for weeks at a time. These same folks keep trying to convince me to buy/rent a digital cable box, which if I understand right, gives them the ability to log what channels I'm watching. And they expect me to get excited about this! John Wilson D Bit From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 6 12:47:32 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:35 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: <200004061700.NAA26397@bg-tc-ppp675.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <008101bf9ff0$31e93e00$0400c0a8@winbook> ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Pechter To: Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 11:00 AM Subject: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond! > > That's something one would have to take up with the vendors of OS/2, right? > > Nope the VB and Foxpro used to say they'd work under OS/2 -- but they > didn't. > > False advertising on the box? > > > > > > > > Then there is the issue of *stability*. > > > > > for my email, etc) has been "up" without a hitch for three years without a > > problem. I've never seen reason to cuss it. The key is that I don't try to > > make it do stuff for which it wasn't intended. > > > > The folks I see having problems with their MS-OS-based systems generally are > > the ones that (1) hand around the "chat" rooms (where their computers get > > "social diseases"), (2) try to squeeze more performance out of their > > computers by violating the components' specifications, (3) try to get their > > computers to do other sorts of things for which they (or their software) > > weren't intended. Now, that's not to say it doesn't happen otherwise, but > > from where I sit, that's what I see. > > > I do none of the above but my Win95 desktop intermittantly blows > chunks and drops ethernet IP connectivity. I've seen this less often > with Win98... > I can't say I've had that experience. I have a Netware server that's been pretty solid, and I do the resource sharing via the built-in TCP/IP in Windows. My two workstations are attached via fast ethernet as is the notebook. These all seem to have little trouble swallowing the data and regurgitating it when required. I recently had a problem due to a hardware failure, but I doubt MS had anything to do with that. > > > > Then there is that question of innovation. > > > > > Having been involved with computers since the '60's I'd say this is a given. > > Nothing has been host to more innovation than the microcomputer business. > > Now, I don't know what you're pointing out, but if you know of anyone who's > > bringing more innovation to the masses, you could tell me about it. > > > Give me a list of the innovations that didn't come out of Minis, > Mainframes or Workstations first. > That might be difficult to do. People's imaginations are limited, at least at the outset, by what applications of technology have preceded them. Now that PC's are pretty capable of doing what the mini's and mainframes did before, but perhaps on a smaller scale, it's only a matter of time before some "new" things pop up. So far, the primary innovation has been making all the available technology available to as many people as possible. This is all being done on a scale never before imagined. That scale certainly wasn't possible with mini's mainframes, and workstations. > > > > > > Someone mind explaining why if I install software on a Microsoft system or > > > make *very* minor changes I've got the reboot the @*& #$)@ thing?!?! > > > > > I've never wanted to become an expert on *NIX and its kin, but IIRC, if you > > make any changes to the system you not only have to restart the system, you > > have to recompile several modules, including, in some cases, the kernel. > > If you're adding new device driver -- maybe. Not if the one was > already compiled for that kernel. > > Meanwhile why does every non-Win2000 box need to reboot to change an IP > address or nameserver address? > I've not had to change IP addresses much, so I really don't know. I think it's a simple decision that was made at MS. Most people fiddle with their IP addresses only when they have to, and most of them really never have to, since they're automatically assigned when the dial their ISP. If you have a persistent connection, you don't have to fiddle with that stuff much either. OTOH, if you're into fiddling with the internals and such as a hobby, which THEY (whoever that migh be) probably don't want to encourage anyway, you have to reboot a lot in order to register everything properly. That's simply putting the needs of the many ahead of the needs of a few. > > > > Not all cases are so extreme, but it's the extremes that tend to be > > remembered. It's also no surprise that DEC seems to have gone out of their > > way, during the early days of widespread internet use (1985-1988). to make > > their LAN boards incompatible with anyone else's. They also tweaked their > > protocols to weaken their own networking system so people wouldn't be > > tempted to mix and match. > > Examples of the lan board incompatibility please. > Also, some explanation of the protocol issue so I can see > what you mean-- X.25, DECnet Phase III, DECnet Phase IV? > What I remember about this matter is that the DEC machines were all running DECnet, while everybody else wanted to run TCP/IP. This was back in the mid-'80's and it wasn't easy to find an ethernet card that had TCP/IP support. The only popular LAN package back then was NETWARE, and it used IPX. Getting datagram service to run on the local net was a problem until we put the DEC hardware on a separate net. My interest was in running a voice system over the LAN, which is a hostile environment for that anyway. Nonetheless, the "fix" was to get the DEC stuff off the network. SUN, SGI, HP, and others coexisted with the PC's with no trouble. The DEC stuff didn't work well together with the SUN, SGI, and HP stations either. > Bill > -- > bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? > | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? > | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Apr 6 12:55:12 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:35 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <200004061700.NAA26397@bg-tc-ppp675.monmouth.com>; from pechter@pechter.dyndns.org on Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 01:00:56PM -0400 References: <000901bf9fe2$60f29880$0400c0a8@winbook> <200004061700.NAA26397@bg-tc-ppp675.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <20000406135512.B23767@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 01:00:56PM -0400, Bill Pechter wrote: > I do none of the above but my Win95 desktop intermittantly blows > chunks and drops ethernet IP connectivity. I've seen this less often > with Win98... I wish I'd gotten that far, but W98 doesn't even like my SVGA enough to give me a really usable display, I loaded all the drivers (and it's a generic Trident PCI VGA, not some oddball thing) but no matter what I set it to it always snaps back into 16-color mode at the lowest resolution. Works OK under NT but the system keeps locking up, and half the time the mouse doesn't get detected so it takes a few reboots to get it going. > > I've never wanted to become an expert on *NIX and its kin, but IIRC, if you > > make any changes to the system you not only have to restart the system, you > > have to recompile several modules, including, in some cases, the kernel. > > If you're adding new device driver -- maybe. Not if the one was > alread compiled for that kernel. I don't know about other Unices but loadable drivers on Linux work *very* well these days. I wrote a couple recently and I just love how you can type "make" and by the time you're done, the new driver has replaced the old one and it's all initialized and ready to go. Took me a couple of days before I even managed to crash the system the first time (through pointer bugs in ring 0 code), definitely a very nice environment, if you're willing to swallow the idea of writing device drivers in an HLL in the first place. John Wilson D Bit From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 6 12:57:22 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:35 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: Message-ID: <008701bf9ff1$8fd997c0$0400c0a8@winbook> please see remarks embedded below Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 10:56 AM Subject: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond! > > The folks I see having problems with their MS-OS-based systems generally are > > the ones that (1) hand around the "chat" rooms (where their computers get > > "social diseases"), (2) try to squeeze more performance out of their > > computers by violating the components' specifications, (3) try to get their > > computers to do other sorts of things for which they (or their software) > > weren't intended. Now, that's not to say it doesn't happen otherwise, but > > from where I sit, that's what I see. > > Or an app like Netscape falls over and takes out the OS. For a cpu with > protected mode, and an os that mutters things about that it seems odd that > an app failing kills the os! > Well, I avoid this by refusing to support a system that uses Netscape. It's probably throwing out the baby with the bathwater, but I've never seen a system that uses Netscape working well with Windows. > > > > Someone mind explaining why if I install software on a Microsoft system or > > > make *very* minor changes I've got the reboot the @*& #$)@ thing?!?! > > many OSs have this, VMS does under fewer cases though as do NT4. > Linux/freebsd is better than UNIX(and kin) three years ago. > > > Well, the cost differential was larger than the cost of the PC machines I > > used to demonstrate what a poor choice the uVAXII was as a platform during > > my last stint in the aerospace industry. THE JPL guys liked the uVAX-II so > > they used it to replace the Apple-][ that was originally designed into a > > military-oriented project. I wouldn't argue that the uVAX-II didn't do > > better than the Apple-][, but their ESDI interface didn't outperform SCSI, > > What EDSI? DEC never had one! The RQDX3 is MSCP/ST506 MFM and not > considered a perfromer but, MFM drives really arent either. > EMULEX made an MSCP-compatible ESDI controller and that was the PATH the DEC junkies at JPL wanted to pursue. Imagine the red faces when I showed them the (also EMULEX) SCSI setup worked MUCH better! Of course, I nearly lost my job for causing such a stir. When I pointed out that the SCSI approach saved $1k on each drive and on the controller as well, while providing potentially 2.5x the performance (though the system couldn't really capitalize on the improved performance) it caused more red faces. > > > which they claimed it did, and the high-res graphics cards we were told to > > use in the uVax-II cost as much as the entire uVAX-II with all the other > > peripherals. A comparable card from the same vendor but designed for the > > PC/AT cost only $600. > > Back then (1988) I could not get a 1280x1024x8 card for a PC. I was > however running one on the GPX. I might add with a 21" color tube. > I had several of them. They weren't cheap, but the boards from Matrox, Vectrix, et al, were out there. There was even a cheap card from Trident. > > > Not all cases are so extreme, but it's the extremes that tend to be > > remembered. It's also no surprise that DEC seems to have gone out of their > > way, during the early days of widespread internet use (1985-1988). to make > > their LAN boards incompatible with anyone else's. They also tweaked their > > protocols to weaken their own networking system so people wouldn't be > > tempted to mix and match. > > IP was not the rule until years after DECnet phaseIII and when IP started > to become more wide spread there was PhaseIV and PHASEV decnet which was > routable, capable of doing IP over decnet and a lot of other tricks that > PCs needed. PCs under winders were doing lanman then. > > > I guess it just says that when there's a tool that gets the job done, it > > makes sense to learn how to use it as opposed to sticking one's nose in the > > air because it seems too "unsophisticated". What's more, people pay for the > > process of getting the job done. They don't want to pay for doing it the > > "hard" way. > > All the world is a nail when all you got is a hammer. > Yep! It's just another oversimplification, but if it achieves the desired result, it's believed to work. > > Allison > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 6 13:03:03 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:35 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: Message-ID: <009901bf9ff2$5d363980$0400c0a8@winbook> Now, I've got a really simple LAN by comparison with most folks in this arena (1 dual speed hub, one fast hub, one standard hub, and a coax segment), but I've had no trouble with all three protocols operating together (netbeui, tcp/ip, ipx/spx) though I think I've had better performance since I removed netbeui. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 11:14 AM Subject: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond! > > I do none of the above but my Win95 desktop intermittantly blows > > chunks and drops ethernet IP connectivity. I've seen this less often > > with Win98... > > NT4 is better still. However don't run netbuei (lanman) and IPX with IP > or you have a meltdown. Getting W9x or NT to play well with a real > unix/linux node is more fun. > > Try this for fun printserver qube running netbuei so a few W95C boxen need > netbuei and IP... then the desktops start disappearing or rearranging > themselves due to redmonds broken IP cossing up with netbuei. back to > plain IP. gag! > > Allison > > From cem14 at cornell.edu Thu Apr 6 13:13:08 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:35 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: <005101bf9fe8$5c13e520$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <38ECD3B4.CF9FE619@cornell.edu> Richard Erlacher wrote: > > You can't blame Microsoft for allowing YOU to write buggy code. I've never > been shown a case where it's impossible to write the code so it correctly > because of a limitation on the language's interpreter or compiler. It may > not help you do things the way you'd like, but I've never been shown a case > where it forces you to write bug-infested code. Dick: you obviously have not had to deal with nasty surprises in the support libraries that microsoft provides. It is not that MS allows you to write buggy code (you can do that on any platform :-) ), but that their libraries or their code generators are flawed. I remember fortran powerstation (what they came up with after ms fortran 5.x). What a sack of bugs. Unfortunately, it was the only thing capable of making dll32's out of fortran at the time. I also vowed never to use any "C" from microsoft again for the same reason. I still use Watcom C R11, which has the added advantage that is more "unix-like". Too bad Watcom (a superior product) flopped and all developers were forced to use VS C . -- Carlos Murillo-Sanchez email: cem14@cornell.edu 428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853 From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 6 13:39:39 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:35 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <000901bf9fe2$60f29880$0400c0a8@winbook> References: <200004060530.WAA04264@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: >> Then there is the issue of *stability*. >> >I'm not sure what you mean by this. This particular system ( the one I use >for my email, etc) has been "up" without a hitch for three years without a >problem. I've never seen reason to cuss it. The key is that I don't try to >make it do stuff for which it wasn't intended. > >The folks I see having problems with their MS-OS-based systems generally are >the ones that (1) hand around the "chat" rooms (where their computers get >"social diseases"), (2) try to squeeze more performance out of their >computers by violating the components' specifications, (3) try to get their >computers to do other sorts of things for which they (or their software) >weren't intended. Now, that's not to say it doesn't happen otherwise, but >from where I sit, that's what I see. OK, I've observed of people useing Windows, there is always the occasional person that doesn't have problems. I've also noticed that the *only* time I hear about this is when someone else points out how unstable Windows is! Having said that, I'm aware that if you *very carefully* tune the system, you might be lucky and get a system that will stay up, even under a heavy load. I'm also aware that you'll have better luck if you don't have *any* 3rd party software on the system. I'm one of those people that just has to look at a Windows system and it crashes. Now let's look at your reasons why that could be. 1. I don't mess with chat rooms, I don't have time 1a. I don't pirate software (inferred) 1b. I don't even allow any systems I have running Windows to know that the Internet exists! Well, this one isn't quite true, as I've now got VirtualPC running Win98 on my Mac, and let it know the net exists so I can easily read the PDP-8 doc's on Highgate. However, I just have to push a button and I've got a clean system. Still none of the computers running it native have known about the net. 2. I don't overclock or even push these systems 3. I don't trust Windows enough to try anything like that BTW, this is what I call stability, this was just prior to a power outage on Sunday (I really need to break down and get an UPS). 4:15PM up 239 days, 16:56, 4 users, load averages: 0.06, 0.07, 0.08 >> Someone mind explaining why if I install software on a Microsoft system or >> make *very* minor changes I've got the reboot the @*& #$)@ thing?!?! >> >I've never wanted to become an expert on *NIX and its kin, but IIRC, if you >make any changes to the system you not only have to restart the system, you >have to recompile several modules, including, in some cases, the kernel. I >remember attaching a serial I/O card to a LINUX box once, wherein I had to >recompile (*GETTY) and restart several times. Adding a port to windows >normally didn't require a last time I did it. Of course, it is sometimes >necessary to restart the system if you have to add hardware, since nobody >recommends doing that without first shutting off the power. I'm not talking about adding new hardware and drivers, I'm talking about doing what should be a simple software install, or changing the configuration of software already on the system. The only time you should have to recompile the kernel is when adding a new one, new hardware (and these days that's not a requirement), or making some very serious changes (networking is about all that comes to mind). Also several times I've found it easier to get Linux to support hardware than Windows. I believe that it is to difficult under Linux to do these kind of things, however, progress is being made. BTW, MS isn't alone in the reboot crime. The Macintosh has this problem also, and is getting worse about it. >Well, the cost differential was larger than the cost of the PC machines I >used to demonstrate what a poor choice the uVAXII was as a platform during >my last stint in the aerospace industry. THE JPL guys liked the uVAX-II so >they used it to replace the Apple-][ that was originally designed into a >military-oriented project. I wouldn't argue that the uVAX-II didn't do >better than the Apple-][, but their ESDI interface didn't outperform SCSI, >which they claimed it did, and the high-res graphics cards we were told to >use in the uVax-II cost as much as the entire uVAX-II with all the other >peripherals. A comparable card from the same vendor but designed for the >PC/AT cost only $600. One should always buy the proper hardware for the job. If the Apple ][ was able to do the job the MVII was overkill. However, what percentage of MVII's are still in active use, compared to PC/AT's? There is also the real killer, what platform is the application you need to run available on? >Not all cases are so extreme, but it's the extremes that tend to be >remembered. It's also no surprise that DEC seems to have gone out of their >way, during the early days of widespread internet use (1985-1988). to make >their LAN boards incompatible with anyone else's. They also tweaked their >protocols to weaken their own networking system so people wouldn't be >tempted to mix and match. Back then as I recall just about *everyone* was incompatible! I've no trouble making DEC LAN boards from that timeframe work with various systems running 100Mbit, and I've got enough variaty I probably should have problems in this area. >I guess it just says that when there's a tool that gets the job done, it >makes sense to learn how to use it as opposed to sticking one's nose in the >air because it seems too "unsophisticated". What's more, people pay for the >process of getting the job done. They don't want to pay for doing it the >"hard" way. Actually despite what I've said, I like VB, and to some extent agree with this statement. However, I don't use it, as it's only available on unstable platforms. It's a great language for simple little specialty apps. Last I looked it wasn't a great language for large complex apps. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From blergh at dds.nl Thu Apr 6 13:47:16 2000 From: blergh at dds.nl (Erik Brens) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:35 2005 Subject: pdp11/70 / MK11 Message-ID: <20000406204716.A4907@stronghold.xs4all.nl> Does anybody know if it's possible to run an 11/70 without the MK11 memory box ? I know it can be done with the PEP "update", but I was wondering if there is another way, possibly involving standard UNIBUS memory. Thanks, Erik. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Apr 6 13:48:19 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:35 2005 Subject: iOpener Update Message-ID: <000406144819.2020017d@trailing-edge.com> >It hurts my head trying to understand this. How the cable companies get >their little whims written into law is beyond me. I mean anything's silly >if you look close enough -- suppose my TV happens to be switchable to accept >a video signal of either polarity (or whatever it is), how is it that that >makes me a *criminal*? Watch out - just tuning through certain high-numbered UHF channels is now illegal, since the cellphone companies grabbed those frequencies and then a few years later convinced congress that it's illegal for the general public to tune in to those frequencies. (As a practical matter, trying to listen to cellphone conversations with an old TV is really, really tough, though you do get to hear bits and pieces. Much better are the non-crippled scanners you can buy in Canada and many other countries.) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Apr 6 13:57:32 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:35 2005 Subject: pdp11/70 / MK11 Message-ID: <000406145732.2020017d@trailing-edge.com> >Does anybody know if it's possible to run an 11/70 without the MK11 memory >box ? Sure, get a MJ11 memory box (or, rather, 4 times as many MJ11's as you had MK11's) :-). >I know it can be done with the PEP "update", There are several other third-party memory boxes/cards available too. > but I was wondering if there >is another way, possibly involving standard UNIBUS memory. I do believe that there's an option to map some of the memory space on the Unibus into memory space. It probably doesn't work correctly at all if you're using the Massbus slots for I/O, though, and you certainly can't get above 124 kWords doing this. Out of curiosity, why can't you use your MK11's? Not enough power to run them and the 11/70 at the same time? I had to take multiple 15A circuits to run my 11/70 with MJ11 memory boxes. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From kmar at lle.rochester.edu Thu Apr 6 13:58:52 2000 From: kmar at lle.rochester.edu (Ken Marshall) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:35 2005 Subject: Working on my NIC-80 / NIC-1080 In-Reply-To: <200004061706.KAA06204@civic.hal.com> References: <4.3.0.20000406080621.01a80b70@pc> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000406144732.00aef960@popserver.lle.rochester.edu> >Dwight: > Anyway, it look like my best hope is for someone to >find one of these at some university. I guess this >is what historians must go through when trying to find >the real facts about history. >Dwight Might I suggest posting what your looking for on the sci.techniques.mag-resonance, sci.techniques.spectroscopy, and sci.chem.analytical news groups. This would be the best way to find someone that may still have an 80 or 1080 around that could help you out. I watch these groups regularly, and have seen some Nicolet -related traffic in the past. I have a Nicolet 660 system still in operation here controlling an FTIR spectrometer, but it is a considerably later model and uses the NICOS operating system. Unfortunately, I don't have any of the things that you need. However, at one time they had a Nicolet NMR spectrometer at Rochester Institute of Technology in the Chemistry Department that did use a 1080. I will contact a colleague over there and see if they still have it or any software sitting around. If that fails, I can try to contact Nicolet myself- as a customer about to look at purchasing a new FTIR spectrometer, I may have a bit of leverage. Regards, Kenneth L. Marshall Research Engineer, Optical Materials Laboratory for Laser Energetics University of Rochester 250 East River Road Rochester, NY 14623 Phone:(716)-275-8247 Fax: (716)-275-5960 From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 6 13:59:49 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:35 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <001501bf9fe5$fd0bcf40$0400c0a8@winbook> References: <200004060337.UAA30035@shell1.aracnet.com> <3.0.5.32.20000405225930.0093c640@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: >> >If it weren't for the low prices resulting from the economy of scale, >scale >> >which is enabled by the fact that Microsoft made computers simple enough >to >> >use that the masses could and would use them. >> >There were plenty of other players on the scene. Just look at DEC. They >wanted to make computers more costly, less convenient, less accessible. >It's justice that they're history! They weren't alone in this and I expect >some of the others, notably IBM, to go away eventually as well, though >probably not as kindly as DEC went. They, at least, are working on bringing >new technology to the market, rather than repainting the old stuff and >trumpeting that the new color made it new technology. OK, I can no longer resist commenting on this. WHERE IS MICROSOFT'S INNOVATION?!?!?! Let's look at some of their programs through the years. MS BASIC: Basically a port of DEC BASIC MS DOS: They bought a clone of CP/M MS Windows: Mac OS MS Windows NT: OS/2 and VMS (OK, so they did help develop this, but OS/2 was trash until IBM took it over. Of course IBM blew it big time with OS/2.) MS Windows 95: Mac OS and NeXTstep (OK, the "System Properties" in the "Control Panels" is the one mildly cool thing about this. I don't know if there is prior art of any type for this.). MS Explorer: Netscape (I won't even credit them with having looked at Mosaic) MS Window 98: Bug fixes for '95 and bundled MS Explorer MS Windows 2000: Technologies bought from everywhere, just how much of OpenVMS have they licensed/bought for this? I actually want to give it a try, but haven't had the chance. MS Word: Various word processors MS Excel: Various spreadsheets MS PowerPoint: Harvard Graphics MS Foxpro (is this still around): They bought it MS Access (isn't this the one that was a failed communications product): ? MS Access (the DB): Various Databases, it's got a rep for loosing data last I heard. MSASM, MS Fortran, MS C, etc.: Ports of existing stuff MS Visual BASIC: Now this one has bothered me for several years, did they buy the underlying technology or copy something that already existed. I've a strange feeling that this one was actual innovation! There is other stuff, but I think that paints a fairly accurate picture of their innovation! Basically their innovation is in copying existing stuff, repackaging it, and tricking people into thinking they've just come up with something new. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 6 14:10:13 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:35 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: <000901bf9fe2$60f29880$0400c0a8@winbook> <200004061700.NAA26397@bg-tc-ppp675.monmouth.com> <20000406135512.B23767@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <00a501bf9ffb$bf8a9000$0400c0a8@winbook> Please see embedded comments below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: John Wilson To: Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 11:55 AM Subject: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond! > On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 01:00:56PM -0400, Bill Pechter wrote: > > I do none of the above but my Win95 desktop intermittantly blows > > chunks and drops ethernet IP connectivity. I've seen this less often > > with Win98... > > I wish I'd gotten that far, but W98 doesn't even like my SVGA enough to > give me a really usable display, I loaded all the drivers (and it's a > generic Trident PCI VGA, not some oddball thing) but no matter what I set > it to it always snaps back into 16-color mode at the lowest resolution. > Works OK under NT but the system keeps locking up, and half the time the > mouse doesn't get detected so it takes a few reboots to get it going. > I've used the same Trident 9680's in my Windows boxes since they first came out. Before that, I used Trident 8900's of various flavors, and the occasional 9440 on a VLB box. The only problem I've ever had at ANY resolution is the fact that it looks so much like its predecessor, the "Trident SuperVGA" for which Windows provides a driver, that it stubbornly hangs on to it. It gives up if you load the correct driver using the Device Manager's "update driver" procedure. > > > > I've never wanted to become an expert on *NIX and its kin, but IIRC, if you > > > make any changes to the system you not only have to restart the system, you > > > have to recompile several modules, including, in some cases, the kernel. > > > > If you're adding new device driver -- maybe. Not if the one was > > alread compiled for that kernel. > > I don't know about other Unices but loadable drivers on Linux work *very* > well these days. I wrote a couple recently and I just love how you can type > "make" and by the time you're done, the new driver has replaced the old one > and it's all initialized and ready to go. Took me a couple of days before > I even managed to crash the system the first time (through pointer bugs > in ring 0 code), definitely a very nice environment, if you're willing to > swallow the idea of writing device drivers in an HLL in the first place. > My problem with LINUX is that the only thing for which I've wanted to utilize LINUX as a NETWARE substitute, via the MARS NWE vehicle that comes with it. Though I'm told it is quite solid, I've never seen a document about that program that explains it well enough that I can get it to work. LINUX claims it's loaded the MARS stuff and claims that the Network is running, but it doesn't have enough information about the simple low-level configuration details to permit development of a rigorous sequence of actions to make it work. The doc's are full of self-contradictions, e.g. omission, in places, of key words such as "not" thereby making it hard to decipher. I'm considering acquiring the "file and print services for NETWARE networks" module for NT and replacing the NETWARE box with that. The only thing stopping me is that I'm not sure it works with the bare-bones IPX interface. The ODI driver set is too large to make the DOS memory useable for what I need. Even so, the ODI drivers and shell are only half the size of the smallest "other" driver set. > > John Wilson > D Bit From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 6 14:19:25 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:35 2005 Subject: iOpener Update In-Reply-To: References: <200004061450.e36EoPR18897@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: >>From ZDNet: http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2522476,00.html > >Probably nothing we don't already know, but the "talkback" section might >be interesting . . . > >------------------------------------------------------------------ >Charles P. Hobbs >transit@lerctr.org I saw it last night, what gets me is the "Developer 100" program. It will provide 100 registered developers with iOpeners that they can modify. What a joke. At this point I'd like to apologize to the list for ever bringing these things up. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 6 14:22:50 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:35 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: <005101bf9fe8$5c13e520$0400c0a8@winbook> <38ECD3B4.CF9FE619@cornell.edu> Message-ID: <00ab01bf9ffd$81c0c620$0400c0a8@winbook> please see embedded comments below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Carlos Murillo-Sanchez To: Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 12:13 PM Subject: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond! > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > You can't blame Microsoft for allowing YOU to write buggy code. I've never > > been shown a case where it's impossible to write the code so it correctly > > because of a limitation on the language's interpreter or compiler. It may > > not help you do things the way you'd like, but I've never been shown a case > > where it forces you to write bug-infested code. > > Dick: you obviously have not had to deal with nasty surprises in the > support libraries that microsoft provides. It is not that MS allows > you to write buggy code (you can do that on any platform :-) ), but > that their libraries or their code generators are flawed. > I remember fortran powerstation (what they came up with after > ms fortran 5.x). What a sack of bugs. Unfortunately, it was > the only thing capable of making dll32's out of fortran at the time. > I also vowed never to use any "C" from microsoft again for the > same reason. I still use Watcom C R11, which has the added advantage > that is more "unix-like". Too bad Watcom (a superior product) flopped > and all developers were forced to use VS C . > The short verson is that you're right! I haven't encountered even one problem with the libraries I used under CP/M, and that is due, in part, to the fact I seldom used them. I wrote test code for the various HDC's I built in MS BASIC, though and delivered the formatter, drive tester software by compiling it. That always worked fine. My use of Windows is pretty much limited to using the applications written for Windows, e.g. Internet Explorer, Word, Excel, Powerpoint, Access, etc. Aside from that, I use various device vendors' software for configuring logic devices and generating/simulating microcontrollers. Oddly enough, I've run into VERY FEW problems with that. I use interchangeable drives in trays, therefore have to reboot to switch OS' and hence, can't claim the boxes have never been rebooted, but I've never had to reboot the one box I use most except when a DOS application when wrong. What this suggests is that if people (like me) have no trouble with the OS and the applications sold for it, other folks shouldn't have trouble either. Well, the OS was written to be used with applications, including, as you say, certain compilers and other tools. If they don't work the way they should, there should be legal consequences. I take great pains to test my hardware and verify the documents I deliver with it truly represents what happens in normal operation. If Microsoft, or any other vendor for that matter, fails to do that, it's because too many people let them get away with it. If there were lots of complaints, phone and written, they'd gradually close those gaps. People are too lazy to complain, or they know their complaints are unwarranted. Up to now, my experience has been that if I want software that really works, get the Microsoft version. It will work. Substandard documentation is pretty common. Since nobody reads it, few catch the errors/omissions. > -- > Carlos Murillo-Sanchez email: cem14@cornell.edu > 428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department > Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853 From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 6 14:33:14 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:35 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: <200004060530.WAA04264@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <00bb01bf9ffe$f7194040$0400c0a8@winbook> I don't think you'd call what I do with my PC's as "careful tuning" and when I got this notebook, with the preinstalled Win95, I loaded MSOFFICE 97-PRO, Free-Agent, CorelDraw, a few other graphics handler programs and the PLUS package so I'd have System Agent. I also needed some CD-handling software to drive my CD recorder, and some sound editing software. All that went in the first day and I've not had a single serious problem to complain about. That's when I stopped complaining about Microsoft. Their work is as good as any I've seen, and it costs VERY little. The app's I run aren't all from MS. Some are, though, and they seem to work well, too. Some are Windows 3.1 apps which I've seen no need to update, yet they work just fine. There are a lot of complaints, some probably legitmate, but I'd say that by and large, the majority of complaints result from failure to RTFM. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Zane H. Healy To: Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 12:39 PM Subject: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond! > >> Then there is the issue of *stability*. > >> > >I'm not sure what you mean by this. This particular system ( the one I use > >for my email, etc) has been "up" without a hitch for three years without a > >problem. I've never seen reason to cuss it. The key is that I don't try to > >make it do stuff for which it wasn't intended. > > > >The folks I see having problems with their MS-OS-based systems generally are > >the ones that (1) hand around the "chat" rooms (where their computers get > >"social diseases"), (2) try to squeeze more performance out of their > >computers by violating the components' specifications, (3) try to get their > >computers to do other sorts of things for which they (or their software) > >weren't intended. Now, that's not to say it doesn't happen otherwise, but > >from where I sit, that's what I see. > > OK, I've observed of people useing Windows, there is always the occasional > person that doesn't have problems. I've also noticed that the *only* time > I hear about this is when someone else points out how unstable Windows is! > > Having said that, I'm aware that if you *very carefully* tune the system, > you might be lucky and get a system that will stay up, even under a heavy > load. I'm also aware that you'll have better luck if you don't have *any* > 3rd party software on the system. > > I'm one of those people that just has to look at a Windows system and it > crashes. Now let's look at your reasons why that could be. > 1. I don't mess with chat rooms, I don't have time > 1a. I don't pirate software (inferred) > 1b. I don't even allow any systems I have running Windows to know > that the Internet exists! Well, this one isn't quite true, as > I've now got VirtualPC running Win98 on my Mac, and let it know > the net exists so I can easily read the PDP-8 doc's on Highgate. > However, I just have to push a button and I've got a clean > > system. Still none of the computers running it native have > known about the net. > 2. I don't overclock or even push these systems > 3. I don't trust Windows enough to try anything like that > > BTW, this is what I call stability, this was just prior to a power outage > on Sunday (I really need to break down and get an UPS). > 4:15PM up 239 days, 16:56, 4 users, load averages: 0.06, 0.07, 0.08 > > > >> Someone mind explaining why if I install software on a Microsoft system or > >> make *very* minor changes I've got the reboot the @*& #$)@ thing?!?! > >> > >I've never wanted to become an expert on *NIX and its kin, but IIRC, if you > >make any changes to the system you not only have to restart the system, you > >have to recompile several modules, including, in some cases, the kernel. I > >remember attaching a serial I/O card to a LINUX box once, wherein I had to > >recompile (*GETTY) and restart several times. Adding a port to windows > >normally didn't require a last time I did it. Of course, it is sometimes > >necessary to restart the system if you have to add hardware, since nobody > >recommends doing that without first shutting off the power. > > I'm not talking about adding new hardware and drivers, I'm talking about > doing what should be a simple software install, or changing the > configuration of software already on the system. The only time you should > have to recompile the kernel is when adding a new one, new hardware (and > these days that's not a requirement), or making some very serious changes > (networking is about all that comes to mind). Also several times I've > found it easier to get Linux to support hardware than Windows. > > I believe that it is to difficult under Linux to do these kind of things, > however, progress is being made. > > BTW, MS isn't alone in the reboot crime. The Macintosh has this problem > also, and is getting worse about it. > > >Well, the cost differential was larger than the cost of the PC machines I > >used to demonstrate what a poor choice the uVAXII was as a platform during > >my last stint in the aerospace industry. THE JPL guys liked the uVAX-II so > >they used it to replace the Apple-][ that was originally designed into a > >military-oriented project. I wouldn't argue that the uVAX-II didn't do > >better than the Apple-][, but their ESDI interface didn't outperform SCSI, > >which they claimed it did, and the high-res graphics cards we were told to > >use in the uVax-II cost as much as the entire uVAX-II with all the other > >peripherals. A comparable card from the same vendor but designed for the > >PC/AT cost only $600. > > One should always buy the proper hardware for the job. If the pple ][ was > able to do the job the MVII was overkill. However, what percentage of > MVII's are still in active use, compared to PC/AT's? > > There is also the real killer, what platform is the application you need to > run available on? > > >Not all cases are so extreme, but it's the extremes that tend to be > >remembered. It's also no surprise that DEC seems to have gone out of their > >way, during the early days of widespread internet use (1985-1988). to make > >their LAN boards incompatible with anyone else's. They also tweaked their > >protocols to weaken their own networking system so people wouldn't be > >tempted to mix and match. > > Back then as I recall just about *everyone* was incompatible! I've no > trouble making DEC LAN boards from that timeframe work with various systems > running 100Mbit, and I've got enough variaty I probably should have > problems in this area. > > >I guess it just says that when there's a tool that gets the job done, it > >makes sense to learn how to use it as opposed to sticking one's nose in the > >air because it seems too "unsophisticated". What's more, people pay for the > >process of getting the job done. They don't want to pay for doing it the > >"hard" way. > > Actually despite what I've said, I like VB, and to some extent agree with > this statement. However, I don't use it, as it's only available on > unstable platforms. It's a great language for simple little specialty > apps. Last I looked it wasn't a great language for large complex apps. > > Zane > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From dwollmann at puttybox.com Thu Apr 6 14:42:00 2000 From: dwollmann at puttybox.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:35 2005 Subject: One of only 3 "enigma machine" stolen; A piece of ENIAC was up for auction. In-Reply-To: ; from mac@Wireless.Com on Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 10:26:28PM -0700 References: <20000403044843.19838.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000406144200.D10616@puttybox.com> On Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 10:26:28PM -0700, Mike Cheponis wrote: > As for the BBC article saying it was only one of three in the world, this is > hard to believe. Thousands of Enigmas were built, and it's quite difficult > to believe that all but three have been destroyed. > > The Computer Museum History Center > has at least one, and I know that the NSA lobby also is reported to have one. > > As the article points out, even Mick Jagger owns an Enigma machine, but of > a different type than the stolen machine. > > I know about the 4-rotor and 3-rotor versions; what other types have there > been? > > And, what is unique about the Bletchley Park Enigma that made it only one of > three in the world? > > -Mike > According to information linked to by the Wired article on this subject, the missing machine was an "Abwehr" (sp?) variant, with no patch panel, and extra symbols on the keys: http://home.cern.ch/~frode/crypto/BPAbwehr/press.html More details on the machine are located here: http://www.eclipse.net/~dhamer/Abwehr_theft.htm And yes, there may be a few more around, but this one was one of three Abwehr models _known_ to exist. From blergh at dds.nl Thu Apr 6 14:44:36 2000 From: blergh at dds.nl (Erik Brens) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:35 2005 Subject: pdp11/70 / MK11 In-Reply-To: <000406145732.2020017d@trailing-edge.com>; from CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com on Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 02:57:32PM -0400 References: <000406145732.2020017d@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20000406214436.A4973@stronghold.xs4all.nl> Hi Tim, On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 02:57:32PM -0400, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > > but I was wondering if there > >is another way, possibly involving standard UNIBUS memory. > > I do believe that there's an option to map some of the memory space on the > Unibus into memory space. It probably doesn't work correctly at all if > you're using the Massbus slots for I/O, though, and you certainly can't > get above 124 kWords doing this. Do I need a special module to do this, or can it be done by some modest jumpering/rewiring ? At the moment I would be happy to just have a semi-working 11/70, however I would love to have it fully functional someday. > Out of curiosity, why can't you use your MK11's? Not enough power to > run them and the 11/70 at the same time? I had to take multiple 15A > circuits to run my 11/70 with MJ11 memory boxes. The 11/70 was defunct when I got it, and a week ago I finally managed to diagnose the problem to be "MK11 related". (after reseating all connectors coming out of the MK11 the 11/70 actually worked for about 5 minutes) I was about to clean and reseat all connectors today, but when I turned on the 11/70, something at the back of the MK11 short circuited ..... I only have one MK11 box with 768KB of ram, and I can only hope the modules contained herein weren't damaged. Erik. From marvin at rain.org Thu Apr 6 14:56:56 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:35 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: <200004060530.WAA04264@shell1.aracnet.com> <000901bf9fe2$60f29880$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <38ECEC08.CBDF521D@rain.org> Richard Erlacher wrote: > The folks I see having problems with their MS-OS-based systems generally are > the ones that (1) hand around the "chat" rooms (where their computers get > "social diseases"), (2) try to squeeze more performance out of their > computers by violating the components' specifications, (3) try to get their > computers to do other sorts of things for which they (or their software) > weren't intended. Now, that's not to say it doesn't happen otherwise, but > from where I sit, that's what I see. I don't know about #1. It is unclear to me what you mean by #2. #3 is where the big problem IMNSHO comes from. A number of software conflicts arise where the consumer would have no chance of finding out or knowing about until *IT* happens and the troubleshooting procedures arise. A recent example would be a client was opening a newsletter file in MS Word 2000, and most of the time the system would promptly (bad pun) crash. This started to happen only after a new scanner was installed. Coincidence ??? The problem turned out to be the *new* system needed an updated video driver. The MS Knowledge Base showed no similar problems with Word. It was only when I searched for the problem driver (I had no idea at the time what it was for) that the problem came up, and then only under another application. Another example would be a system crashing and I found the problem by (educated guess) uninstalling a number of utilities. It appears to me that problems like the above are a function of the OS design. The mentality "get it to market" and "let the consumer do the final beta testing" are one cause of the problems. And of course, things were changing very rapidly and it is somewhat understanable that a product that worked with the most common scenarios and most of the time with the rest would get put out to market. From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 6 15:00:23 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:35 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: <200004060337.UAA30035@shell1.aracnet.com><3.0.5.32.20000405225930.0093c640@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <00c101bfa002$c120e340$0400c0a8@winbook> please see embedded comments below Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Zane H. Healy To: Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 12:59 PM Subject: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond! > >> >If it weren't for the low prices resulting from the economy of scale, > >scale > >> >which is enabled by the fact that Microsoft made computers simple enough > >to > >> >use that the masses could and would use them. > >> > >There were plenty of other players on the scene. Just look at DEC. They > >wanted to make computers more costly, less convenient, less accessible. > >It's justice that they're history! They weren't alone in this and I expect > >some of the others, notably IBM, to go away eventually as well, though > >probably not as kindly as DEC went. They, at least, are working on bringing > >new technology to the market, rather than repainting the old stuff and > >trumpeting that the new color made it new technology. > > OK, I can no longer resist commenting on this. WHERE IS MICROSOFT'S > INNOVATION?!?!?! > Isn't the approach they've taken, making their products more available by pricing them low, innovation enough? DEC commonly charged $100 per word for their code. IBM made you buy the software and then leased you one buggy release after another until you learned to live with their bugs. > > Let's look at some of their programs through the years. > > MS BASIC: > Basically a port of DEC BASIC > I only saw DEC's basic once, and saw no similarity other than the superficial similarities imposed by the standard language. I'd expect most BASIC to look pretty much the same, however, since neither DEC nor MS defined the language. > > MS DOS: > They bought a clone of CP/M > I used CP/M every day for about six years. When I saw my first MS-DOS, I noted that the console command for a file list was 'DIR' and 'TYPE' and that's where the similarity ended. The file system architecture and associated function set was totally different from CP/M's, and the console commands were different. What they had in common beyond 'DIR' was that they responded to keyboard commands just like ALL other OS'. CP/M used PIP rather than Copy. Are you now going to say they swiped that from OS-8? I just can't convince my self that there's much in common between MSDOS and CP/M. > > MS Windows: > Mac OS > > MS Windows NT: > OS/2 and VMS (OK, so they did help develop this, but OS/2 was trash until > IBM took it over. Of course IBM blew it big time with OS/2.) > > MS Windows 95: > Mac OS and NeXTstep (OK, the "System Properties" in the "Control Panels" is > the one mildly cool thing about this. I don't know if there is prior art > of any type for this.). > The one thing I see them having copied from the MAC is the reputation for routine crashes. I'm not sure it's warranted. In fact, I'm not sure it's warranted in the case of the MAC. I can remember a number of instances, though, where a whole pool of MAC's were dead every morning while the PC's, which were powered off at night, unlike the MAC's, were immediately at work, once powered up. > > MS Explorer: > Netscape (I won't even credit them with having looked at Mosaic) > I don't think anyone denies that both IE and Netscape were based, at least in part, on the work done in NCSA MOSAIC, particularly v2.0. I still have this program, by the way, and find it quite different from both IE and Netscape in its look and feel. Naturally the feature sets for the modern software is more complete. > > MS Window 98: > Bug fixes for '95 and bundled MS Explorer > > MS Windows 2000: > Technologies bought from everywhere, just how much of OpenVMS have they > licensed/bought for this? I actually want to give it a try, but haven't > had the chance. > > MS Word: > Various word processors > > MS Excel: > Various spreadsheets > > MS PowerPoint: > Harvard Graphics > > MS Foxpro (is this still around): > They bought it > > MS Access (isn't this the one that was a failed communications product): > ? > > MS Access (the DB): > Various Databases, it's got a rep for loosing data last I heard. > > MSASM, MS Fortran, MS C, etc.: > Ports of existing stuff > > MS Visual BASIC: > Now this one has bothered me for several years, did they buy the underlying > technology or copy something that already existed. I've a strange feeling > that this one was actual innovation! > > There is other stuff, but I think that paints a fairly accurate picture of > their innovation! > I think this shows their mode of operation isn't too different from what anyone else would do. They just make a bigger splash when the succeed, and are a little better at sweeping their failures under the carpet. They improved on almost everything they "copied" or bought, and brought it to market. The fact that WORD, EXCEL, ACCESS, etc, after 10 years of competitors' chipping away at them speaks for itself. Even the BS-generator (POWERPOINT) is pretty amazing. The fact that some of their practices have come into question indicates they're not too different from other companies. The fact that they don't do the equivalent of discovering a new planet every year is certainly no indictment. The fact that their inability to pull a rabbit out of the hat every time indicates they're pretty successful and have fallen victim to the high expectations based on their high success rate. I note that it's easy to complain they lack something, but finding a positive construct, i.e. someone else who's done better, is not as easy. > > Basically their innovation is in copying existing stuff, repackaging it, > and tricking people into thinking they've just come up with something new. > They're not alone in their effort to repackage unsuccessful software after making it work. The innovation is making it work. Not all their efforts have been successful. You've cited one. I imagine they put their learning from FoxPro, etc, to work in Access, though. > > Zane > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Apr 6 15:08:26 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:35 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <38ECD3B4.CF9FE619@cornell.edu>; from cem14@cornell.edu on Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 02:13:08PM -0400 References: <005101bf9fe8$5c13e520$0400c0a8@winbook> <38ECD3B4.CF9FE619@cornell.edu> Message-ID: <20000406160826.A24530@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 02:13:08PM -0400, Carlos Murillo-Sanchez wrote: > I still use Watcom C R11, which has the added advantage > that is more "unix-like". Too bad Watcom (a superior product) flopped > and all developers were forced to use VS C . There's a rumor floating around the OS/2 PDD mailing list, that Watcom C may be on the verge of being released as open source. That would sure suit me fine, since my only complaint about the package is an annoying linker bug which ought to be easy to fix, with source. And the ability to produce executables for bletcherous GUI OSes w/o leaving the comfort of a DOS development machine, is a pretty neat feature! It just figures that as soon as I rigged E11 (full) so that you could import user-written device emulations written in Watcom C, they canned the product! And the M$ and Borland .DLL startup routines are too full of calls to Win16 (and undocumented ones at that) to be easily fooled into running on a foreign system. So I sure hope the rumor is true. John Wilson D Bit From transit at lerctr.org Thu Apr 6 15:17:08 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:35 2005 Subject: iOpener Update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > I saw it last night, what gets me is the "Developer 100" program. It will > provide 100 registered developers with iOpeners that they can modify. > > What a joke. > > At this point I'd like to apologize to the list for ever bringing these > things up. There are at least two things going on: 1. Netpliance finding out that their system can be used in an unintended way, and taking action to prevent it. 2. Netpliance forcing a draconian TOS agreement (opt-out charge of $500 if the device isn't used within a certain amount of time, and some other "goodies") on its users, even those who have ordered but not yet received the device. #1 I can understand. #2 just seems sleazy and wrong. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 6 14:33:06 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:35 2005 Subject: iOpener Update In-Reply-To: <000406120843.2020015e@trailing-edge.com> (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) References: <000406120843.2020015e@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20000406193306.15279.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tim Shoppa wrote: > Yeah, but there are many places in the US where it is essentially illegal > to hook your own cable descrambler to the cable line, not too much different > than the old Bell System limits on third-party equipment hooked to phone > lines. Actually not. For a few years now, federal law has *required* that customers be allowed to buy their own cable boxes. However, if those cable boxes descramble the scrambled channels without the authorization of the cable company, that's theft of service. Sales of boxes that have been modified to do that is unlawful. The FCC has mandated that the cable companies come up with a standard interface for Conditional Access Systems, i.e., smartcards that decrypt or control the decryption of pay channels. That's what OpenCable(TM) is all about. You'll be able to buy any brand of cable box you want (or TVs and VCRs with the cable box built in), and rent just the access card from the cable company. This is how the Ku-band satellite systems have worked for years. The nice thing about all this is that we won't have the stupidity of cable-ready TVs and VCRs that have to be left on channel 3 or 4 because of a brain-damaged cable box. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 6 14:39:31 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:35 2005 Subject: pdp11/70 / MK11 In-Reply-To: <20000406204716.A4907@stronghold.xs4all.nl> (message from Erik Brens on Thu, 6 Apr 2000 20:47:16 +0200) References: <20000406204716.A4907@stronghold.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20000406193931.15332.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Does anybody know if it's possible to run an 11/70 without the MK11 memory > box? I know it can be done with the PEP "update", but I was wondering if > there is another way, possibly involving standard UNIBUS memory. Not any way that's compatible with standard software. IIRC, it's possible to configure the machine so that more than just the I/O page is out on Unibus, and so that the Unibus map doesn't respond to those addresses from the Unibus side. But AFAIK there is no support in any operating systems (DEC, Unix, etc.) for such a configuration. I'll be using the PEP-70 memory in all of mine. From spc at armigeron.com Thu Apr 6 15:45:09 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:36 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Apr 06, 2000 11:39:39 AM Message-ID: <200004062045.QAA09914@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Zane H. Healy once stated: > > >The folks I see having problems with their MS-OS-based systems generally are > >the ones that (1) hand around the "chat" rooms (where their computers get > >"social diseases"), (2) try to squeeze more performance out of their > >computers by violating the components' specifications, (3) try to get their > >computers to do other sorts of things for which they (or their software) > >weren't intended. Now, that's not to say it doesn't happen otherwise, but > >from where I sit, that's what I see. > > OK, I've observed of people useing Windows, there is always the occasional > person that doesn't have problems. I've also noticed that the *only* time > I hear about this is when someone else points out how unstable Windows is! In 1996 I started work on a project that required the use of Windows95 [1] so the company found an acceptable 486 and I managed to do a fresh install of Windows95 [2]. I then installed only two third party applications: Netscape and Java. For the year I used the machine it never crashed on me nor did I ever have any real difficulty unless it was making a drastic change, like changing the mouse (you wouldn't belive the problems I had in changing from a bus mouse to a serial mouse, which I needed to do several times [3]) or changing the SLIP settings. It was really amusing when I took the machine into the office and tried getting it installed on the local network there. Nothing like trying to telnet to a box only to have it attempt to dial up, then use the network card. That was fine for several months. It was only when my machine was used by someone else [4] did problems creep up. Up to that point I only had Windows95, Netscape and Java. But for the new person, they had installed Microsoft Office and some other business applications needed. When I resumed using the machine it would crash (actually, freeze) quite often. It was only after it didn't fully boot did I have to do an emergency dump of critical files off the system. I then tried reinstalling the system following the same procedure I did a year before (format, install MS-DOS, Windows 3.1, Windows95 upgrade, PlusPack). Continuous attempts over two days (where the system was so sluggish I could actually see it drawing pixel by pixel) convinced me to install Linux on the machine, after which I never had a problem again. The only changes hardware wise to the machine was the addition of a network card months before. Nothing else. I could never figure out why Windows couldn't be reinstalled. To my knowledge, the machine is still running Linux to this day. -spc (Then there's my friend who is doing development under NT and has constant crashes. It's not reassuring that he's working on a phone switch that runs under NT ... ) [1] A major Java applet. At the time the only two platforms that had Java development systems were Solaris (which we could not afford) or Windows95, which we could. [2] Fresh install of MS-DOS 6.2, then Windows 3.1, then the Windows95 upgrade, then the Windows95 PlusPack for the SLIP stuff. [3] My machine was used for trade shows but the bus mouse was mine. When my machine was taken for trade shows I would slap a cheap serial mouse on the system. [4] I was out of the office for about two months and the company needed my computer for the new secretary. It was a very small company. From hofmanwb at worldonline.nl Thu Apr 6 13:14:08 2000 From: hofmanwb at worldonline.nl (W.B.(Wim) Hofman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:36 2005 Subject: Nuke Redmond! Message-ID: <20000406210021.BF0B036EFA@rhea.worldonline.nl> Richard, This must have been said a lot of times, but I say it anyway. I have been putting computers into factories and when you took a DEC PDP-11 you did not have to worry so much about next months software. About drivers you would have to write all over again. About being able to service a 5, 10, 15 year old or even older application, even in far away countries. Yes, you paid, but what about the cost of installing a new system every 3 or 4 years because hardware is no longer supported with the new release or the new version, or the hardware was phased out after months and spares no longer exist. This new hardware is ageing so fast that the Salvation Army is collecting it by the time you paid for it. It is marvelous for a lot of people, but keep it out of the factories. Wim ---------- > From: Richard Erlacher > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! > Date: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 9:20 PM > > I really can't understand what all the hostility toward Microsoft is about. > If it weren't for the low prices resulting from the economy of scale, scale > which is enabled by the fact that Microsoft made computers simple enough to > use that the masses could and would use them. > > If you want to dog somebody, the go after DEC, (God be thanked that they're > gone!) with their antiquated technology always a generation behind everyone > else and with their ridiculous prices. > > If DEC had had their way you'd have to use a single flip=flop pair for which > they charged you 10^15 bucks per year and which broke twice a month so some > under-trained ignoramus could come around and pretend to fix the thing. > Then, if you had the unmitigated audacity to try to use some other vendor's > hardware or software, they'd raise hell and point down the wire if their > stuff didn't behave as claimed. > > The only point I've seen in this thread that makes any sense at all is the > one about Visual Basic. If your really want that 6-7 figure income, you'll > learn it. I know at least half a dozen fellows who have taken that up. > > Forget about the C++ or C or Delphi! These guys took 6 weeks to learn the > VB and now most of them have paid off their houses, cards, and credit cards > and vacation in Arruba in the winter and Alaska in the summer. at least > twice. The oldest of the guys I know doing this is 35 and worth over $10^7 > net. Five years ago, he was begging me for work. How many guys do you know > who have net savings of over a year's gross after only five years? That > certainly indicates VB is not just a joke. > > Dick > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 9:37 PM > Subject: Re: Nuke Redmond! > > > > Huw Davies wrote: > > > I was at the Programming sectin of the local Computer Book store last > > > week, only to discover that "Programming" == Visual Basic, C on Windows > > > and that's about it. > > > > Don't you know, being able to write in Visual Basic is what all computer > > professionals aspire to! Rumor has it Windows 2000 was written in Visual > > Basic. > > > > > I wonder what I learnt at Uni should be called? I used to program in > Algol > > > (60 and 68), Pascal, BCPL, Simula-67 and BLISS-10... At least one of > them > > > is still current! > > > > OK, I give up. Which one? I'm not aware of Microsoft having any Windows > > software by those names, therefore they don't exist, and never did! > > > > Zane > > > > PS let me just say for the benefit of anyone new here, I'm joking folks! > From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Apr 6 16:34:48 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:36 2005 Subject: VAX stuff available Message-ID: <200004062134.QAA20593@caesar.cs.umn.edu> I just recieved this message from a co-worker of the professor who is giving me some pdp8/pdp11 stuff. If there is some small VAX stuff that you're looking for, let me know and i'l see if he has it and if i can get it. otherwise, if you want something big you come get it yourself, the stuff is in minneapolis. by small stuff, i mean like a few memory or expansion interface boards, etc. ------------------ John Broadhurst mentioned you were interested in some of his old PDP-11 equipment from the Tandem Lab. Thought I'd check, while I'm cleaning up, if you have any interest in VAX equipment:-) John is still the major repository, but I have a box of VMS docs I am getting ready to pitch out. Some dates back to VMS v4, and there is also some media ("Desktop VMS", Online docs, etc) on CD. We also have some hardware we are (ahem) unlikely to need again: VAXstation 2000s, some newer VAXstations (3100-era), a historic RRD-40 CD drive, etc. ------------------ -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Apr 6 16:46:56 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:36 2005 Subject: PDP 8/L power supply docs? Message-ID: <200004062146.QAA20692@caesar.cs.umn.edu> I'm told that the power supply in the 8/L i just acquired has a problem with ripple in the 5 volt output, and thus it had started to crash occasionally. I'm not sure how often it crashed, as they ran the thing constantly, so their idea of a problem crashing might be different from mine ;) Still, if its still possible to obtain the correct capacitors, and it looks like we're talking about coca-cola can sized capacitors, it would make sense to replace them. So, i'd like to find a copy of the schematic for the power supply if anyone has it. -Lawrence LeMay PS: Still looking for the power cable, so i havent turned it on yet... From ghldbrd at ccp.com Thu Apr 6 23:00:58 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:36 2005 Subject: iOpener Update In-Reply-To: <000406120843.2020015e@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: Hello CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com On 06-Apr-00, you wrote: >>> Package a) a sole device USD 499, >>> Package b) the device and a 24 Month contract USD 99 + 24 x 20 > >> Or the common package C) box is part of the service and "rented". Cable >> boxes especially encoded ones are that case here (usa). > > Yeah, but there are many places in the US where it is essentially illegal > to hook your own cable descrambler to the cable line, not too much different > than the old Bell System limits on third-party equipment hooked to phone > lines. > > There are some attractions to cheap and uniform guaranteed service for > all, but I don't think I want Internet access to become the monopoly > that phone service used to be or cable service is today. It's bad enough > with some ISP's threatening that they only support Microsoft Windows > and that if you've got trouble accessing their service from any other > OS you're out of luck. > > Actually DSL from some companies is already worse than that - you have > to have a PCI-bus PC-clone running Windows to use their service, > because the only interface device that will work requires that > hardware configuration and the only drivers available are for > MS-Windows. > This is proof that Microsluff does control the market in their favor . . . . When I lived in Vermillion, SD the University of SD was the ISP of choice -- free to students and employees. I tried to get my Amiga up on the system, but they used a proprietary script that required their software to access. OF course that required either a Wintel box or a Mac. The service was worth everything I paid for it -- which was ZERO. And their so-called help desk had NO CLUE of what I was talking about. All they understood was the software package supplied to them. Gary Hildebrand amiga lover forever From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Apr 6 17:25:32 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:36 2005 Subject: NewSubjectSuns In-Reply-To: <38ECC5F1.D5E8091C@alfredtech.edu> References: <200004061305.e36D5kR21887@mail2.siemens.de> <200004061450.e36EoPR18897@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <4.1.20000406152350.044da240@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 12:14 PM 4/6/00 -0500, Scott F. Hall wrote: >I'm new to this discussion group. Is it okay to discuss old machines up >for sale? Please forgive me this once if it's NOT appropriate to talk >about stuff for sale. I'm not a spammer trying to make money. Its perfectly ok to discuss things you would like to sell or trade, it is very bad form to talk about selling something here on this list and then throwing it to the wolves on Ebay. --Chuck From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Apr 6 16:25:19 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:36 2005 Subject: OT: TFT interface In-Reply-To: <002f01bf9fd4$6c887ab0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: >recently had an IBM Thinkpad 770 go dead. It was >sent for repair and was finally deemed "cheeper to >replace than repair". My office is the official >company electronics/computer dumpster, so it ended >up here. The note stuck to it by the repair place >says "dead motherboard". I have dissassembled it My two cents Fix the motherboard instead of playing with the LCD. Subscribe to the thinkpad mailing list for expert help. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Apr 6 16:50:09 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:36 2005 Subject: NewSubjectSuns In-Reply-To: <38ECC5F1.D5E8091C@alfredtech.edu> References: <200004061305.e36D5kR21887@mail2.siemens.de> <200004061450.e36EoPR18897@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: >I'm new to this discussion group. Is it okay to discuss old machines up >for sale? Please forgive me this once if it's NOT appropriate to talk >about stuff for sale. I'm not a spammer trying to make money. > >I do have a truckload of early 1990s Sun gear for s/he who wants it (a >470 server and about 20 sparc1/IPC/IPX stations and a lot of extra stuff >thrown in--monitors, printers, etc.). This is gear the college I work >at wants to get rid of and it should, of course, go to a loving home not >a dumpster! If you're anywhere near western NY state, you could pick it >up with a big truck. The college wants money for it, of course, but not >much. Write me at hallsf@alfredtech.edu if this interests you. I'm sorry but this type of post is consider off topic unless the truckload of neat old computers is located closer to me in SoCal. ;) Do you have any urges to drive a truck to Disneyland? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Apr 6 17:17:48 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:36 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <006901bf9fea$5dc4b780$0400c0a8@winbook> References: <000301bf9fd8$07be2f40$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: >I'd also point out, howver, that what's made them wildly successful is that >they've made the computer accessible to people who don't want to become >experts. It's just an appliance to them, like the TV or microwave oven. >The fact that most people can tolerate this level of reliability (however >one perceives it) is to their credit, however. I don't understand how any saavy computer person could even suggest what you have, without at least being indirectly in the pay of the evil of Redmond. Pardon me if I sound rude, but I am just incredulous. It is such a lie. A carefully fabricated press release lie. Microsoft isn't about easy to use, its about training you to think in the proprietary MS way so that anything else seems "hard" because it is different. Its about locking users into endless update cycles with worthless features integrated into proprietary schemes. The theme of this last decade or so has been the triumph of marketing over substance, and its really more sad and disgusting than I would care to dwell on. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Apr 6 17:01:55 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:36 2005 Subject: Optimem 600 worm drives In-Reply-To: <002501bf9fe6$9c1e7740$0400c0a8@winbook> References: from"Huw Davies" at Apr 06, 2000 12:22:44 PM Message-ID: >I may still have some documentation, etc, for Optimem hardware. I once had >the task of integrating them in to a microVAX in place of the TK50. If the >doc's turn up in the next few days, I'll let you know. They may help with >the eBay auction. > >They subsequently went under and were acquired by Sperry, IIRC. Any information should help. I don't think these have some special value, except maybe to some certain small group that still uses them, but it was one of those if I don't buy it, it goes in the shredder. Most disgusting. I was only able to save two out of four brand new units I found, the other two were a bit mashed by sloppy loading. I "think" I know someone who may have a LOT of these sitting in a warehouse in the factory shipping boxes, so I am going to discretely question him on media etc. RJ Kuhlman (the SCSI guy always selling drives etc. in the SCSI newsgroups) has been trying to sell some of these for the last few months, starting at $150 and latest was $100 w del, so maybe the batch I knew of has been shifted. From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 6 16:44:31 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:36 2005 Subject: PDP 8/L power supply docs? Message-ID: <000c01bfa011$7a709530$7064c0d0@ajp166> -----Original Message----- From: Lawrence LeMay To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, April 06, 2000 5:53 PM Subject: PDP 8/L power supply docs? >I'm told that the power supply in the 8/L i just acquired has a problem >with ripple in the 5 volt output, and thus it had started to crash >occasionally. I'm not sure how often it crashed, as they ran the thing >constantly, so their idea of a problem crashing might be different from >mine ;) > >Still, if its still possible to obtain the correct capacitors, and it >looks like we're talking about coca-cola can sized capacitors, it would >make sense to replace them. So, i'd like to find a copy of the schematic >for the power supply if anyone has it. Caps and other parts can be had for it. You may end up paying a few bucks for them but hey, their good for 20-30 years. Check Highgate for prints. Allison From dylanb at sympatico.ca Wed Apr 5 17:03:33 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (john b) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:36 2005 Subject: I need some PDP-11 RT11 archiving software Message-ID: <005f01bf9f4a$c9e09c40$5379fea9@johnb> -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 9:15 PM Subject: RE: I need some PDP-11 RT11 archiving software >>time to write anything. I will have some people come over and feed in the >>paper tape this weekend. While I won't be able to archive most of it, I do >>hope to at least read in most of the source code on paper tape. (I have over >>310 PDP-1 paper tapes alone). > >So how did the archiving go? Like shit. > Find any notable gems you're dying to tell >us about? > I was amazed with just how much paper tape software I had (not including dectapes,disks, etc..). I had source code to every language and package ever put out for the PDP-1. As for the PDP-11, I saved source code to the first RSX-11 version, DOS/Batch, and paper tape operating system. There was over 400 blue trays of paper tape (packed) for the PDP-1,4,5,8,9,11,... I have been working 15 hour days with 3 others over the past 13 days just to pack the collection and test each minicomputer and peripheral. I am going out to the *new* home of my collection in a couple of months and will archive most of the PDP-1 and the rest of the 11 software there. It's in a *much* better home as this buyer has the capital to keep this collection running well into the next millenium. I backed up some of the PDP-1 software (about 10 tapes) but concentrated on the PDP-8/11 software as private collectors want that kind of software installed when I sell a mini. I am looking forward to heading out to the west coast. I *really* wanted to archive Fortran Source code for the PDP-1 but ran out of time and couldn't hold up shippers. I do feel kind of down though... I *really* liked my PDP-8/S minicomputers but they are going to a better home... As for documentation, I saved a copy of the Classic-8 maintenance manual (I had 3). I understand quite a few people are looking for it... I will scan it in next week when things quiet down. {many other "training manuals/prints" were copied} If there are still licensing issues over RSX-11B,C and others (licensing 30 year old software?? - crazy!) then I can email it to you or others next week. P.S. I did save the source code to PDP-1 DECUS "7A" - Expensive Typewriter. Next week I wil be packing some wishlist items, other promised pieces and *finally* ship them out. john >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Apr 6 18:06:27 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:36 2005 Subject: iOpener Update In-Reply-To: References: <200004061450.e36EoPR18897@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: >I saw it last night, what gets me is the "Developer 100" program. It will >provide 100 registered developers with iOpeners that they can modify. You mean the "get signed agreements not to disclose etc. from the top 100 hackers" program. Why is being cynical so much fun? From af-list at wfi-inc.com Thu Apr 6 18:26:03 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:36 2005 Subject: OT: Netpliance at InternetWorld Message-ID: Hi, I'm just back from InternetWorld, where I had a funny iOpener experience... They had a unit embedded in the front face of a refrigerator (touch-screen) at their display booth. At the end of the spokesmodel's little presentation (and I emphasize the word model - what all those beautiful women have to do with computers is beyond me), I couldn't resist tossing out, "Yeah, that's cool, but can you hack it to run Linux?" I must have been the 10,000th person to ask that day because she just snapped and started yelling at me, "will you people leave us alone about this! Jesus!" But it was too late...some other guy yelled, "yeah, but hurry and buy one before they pour epoxy in the back of it..." Cheers, Aaron From mbg at world.std.com Thu Apr 6 18:32:20 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:36 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! Message-ID: <200004062332.TAA23615@world.std.com> >> their LAN boards incompatible with anyone else's. They also tweaked >> their protocols to weaken their own networking system so people >> wouldn't be tempted to mix and match. That comment is pure cow-flop... I don't know a single engineer at DEC (and now Compaq) who would ever have done this sort of thing... >IP was not the rule until years after DECnet phaseIII and when IP started >to become more wide spread there was PhaseIV and PHASEV decnet which was >routable, capable of doing IP over decnet and a lot of other tricks that >PCs needed. PCs under winders were doing lanman then. Even so, much of the Internet network software has its roots on DEC hardware... even if DEC wasn't doing it at the time... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Thu Apr 6 18:36:52 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:36 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: <000301bf9fd8$07be2f40$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <200004062336.TAA26522@world.std.com> >Just to remind everyone, the system I'm using to process my email has >never "crashed" or behaved anomalously in any way. Of course, it's a >notebook, so I haven't had much motive to stick my hands inside. I have an NT-based PC at work, and I've never stuck my hands into it either, but I regularly have to reboot the damn thing. If I go a few days without having to reboot it, I count myself lucky... Same thing with one of my home PCs, but on that one, I have to reboot daily, if not more... ...but I have numerous DEC systems which have been running NON-STOP for a *YEAR* or more... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From ai705 at osfn.org Thu Apr 6 18:39:02 2000 From: ai705 at osfn.org (Stephen Dauphin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:36 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > OK, I can no longer resist commenting on this. WHERE IS MICROSOFT'S > INNOVATION?!?!?! > > > MS Explorer: > Netscape (I won't even credit them with having looked at Mosaic) > How much did their purchase of Spyglass [the company and the product same name(?)] affect the look and feel of Explorer? Did they use any anything from Spyglass or did they do the Adobe "acquire and squash" two-step on them? Was Spyglass a license or commercial spin off of Mosaic? > > MS Visual BASIC: > Now this one has bothered me for several years, did they buy the underlying > technology or copy something that already existed. I've a strange feeling > that this one was actual innovation! > I haven't had the urge to look at VB. How visual and how object oriented is it? I believe Serius Developer for Mac precedes it. Serius was sold by its founder to Novell who renamed it Appware and seemed to carry it to version 1.2. Was this Novell's effort at competing with VB? It became a dual platform (Win and Mac) development environment, a connect the module (ALMs - Appware Load Modules) IDE. I believe the modules were written in another language, probably C. I think just before its swan dive in 1994(?) they renamed it AppBuilder, but whether that was just cosmetics or real changes I don't know. Using their search engine, I find that Novell has managed to expunge virtually all mention of either product from its web site. Technically this is on topic as the start date for Serius has to be over ten years ago or at least close. Similarly, what happened to Layout? I assume it also doesn't exist anymore. I wonder if there were any last patches, updates or extra code (modules) for both products, material that is now forever lost? Anybody have either of these two products in any of their various incarnations? --- Stephen Dauphin From jpero at cgocable.net Thu Apr 6 14:51:21 2000 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:36 2005 Subject: OT: TFT interface In-Reply-To: References: <002f01bf9fd4$6c887ab0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <200004062347.e36NlXr02170@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 14:25:19 -0700 > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > From: Mike Ford > Subject: Re: OT: TFT interface > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > >recently had an IBM Thinkpad 770 go dead. It was > My two cents > > Fix the motherboard instead of playing with the LCD. > > Subscribe to the thinkpad mailing list for expert help. > Correct, TP 770 sounds nice... fix it! Wizard From mbg at world.std.com Thu Apr 6 18:49:15 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:36 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: <200004060337.UAA30035@shell1.aracnet.com> <3.0.5.32.20000405225930.0093c640@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <200004062349.TAA03811@world.std.com> >Basically their innovation is in copying existing stuff, repackaging it, >and tricking people into thinking they've just come up with something >new. Remember... they've already indoctrinated the several generations of management to ask about 'exchange' addresses, as if MS invented e-mail... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From marvin at rain.org Thu Apr 6 19:23:34 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:36 2005 Subject: NewSubjectSuns References: Message-ID: <38ED2A86.7DCEE4CC@rain.org> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > I'm new to this discussion group. Is it okay to discuss old machines up > > for sale? Please forgive me this once if it's NOT appropriate to talk > > about stuff for sale. I'm not a spammer trying to make money. > > The charter of this list specifically _allows_ adverts (for-sale and > wanted) relating to classic computers and other items that are on-topic here. > > So you're quite correct to post you advert here. Oh oh, I can see the discussion that Doug and I had a year or so ago starting up again :). For the new people and those with faulty memory, I posted a number of ebay auctions that I thought the group might be interested in and we ended up with a fairly friendly flame war for a while. That was the reason Doug started the ccauction listserver. Is it still going? I haven't posted or gotten any email from it in quite a while. From cem14 at cornell.edu Thu Apr 6 19:52:06 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:36 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <000901bf9fe2$60f29880$0400c0a8@winbook> References: <200004060530.WAA04264@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000406205206.0116974c@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 10:08 AM 4/6/00 -0600, you wrote: >The folks I see having problems with their MS-OS-based systems generally are >the ones that (1) hand around the "chat" rooms (where their computers get >"social diseases"), (2) try to squeeze more performance out of their >computers by violating the components' specifications, Well... I recently learned (the hard way) that most graphics cards manufacturers provide drivers that use the PCI bus in a way that is not friendly to other apps in order to "squeeze more performance out of the computers". Later I found a site that describes the problem better than I could: http://www.sekd.com/support/techpap2.htm (for those that do not want to bother to see the site, it describes how most graphics drivers hijack the bus in order to improve their benchmarks; this creates problems for scsi subsystems and digital recording). My point is, that if even the software provided by reputable manufacturers in the wintel world cannot be expected to do the right thing and behave so as not to generate conflicts, then how can you expect a wintel machine not to develop problems at some time? Carlos. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu Apr 6 20:17:12 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:36 2005 Subject: Watcom C In-Reply-To: <20000406160826.A24530@dbit.dbit.com> from John Wilson at "Apr 6, 2000 04:08:26 pm" Message-ID: <200004070117.VAA27267@bg-tc-ppp675.monmouth.com> > It just figures that as soon as I rigged E11 (full) so that you could import > user-written device emulations written in Watcom C, they canned the product! > And the M$ and Borland .DLL startup routines are too full of calls to Win16 > (and undocumented ones at that) to be easily fooled into running on a > foreign system. So I sure hope the rumor is true. > > John Wilson > D Bit John -- I've got an unused IBM OS/2 C compiler... also there's always GCC... What do you need... Keep up the good work -- I love E11 and have been hoping for the KL equivalent someday... Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From cem14 at cornell.edu Thu Apr 6 20:12:33 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:36 2005 Subject: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <20000406210021.BF0B036EFA@rhea.worldonline.nl> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000406211233.011647c4@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 11:14 AM 4/6/00 -0700, you wrote: >Yes, you paid, >but what about the cost of installing a new system every 3 or 4 years >because hardware is no longer supported with the new release or the new >version, or the hardware was phased out after months and spares no longer >exist. >This new hardware is ageing so fast that the Salvation Army is collecting >it by the time you paid for it. It is marvelous for a lot of people, but >keep it out of the factories. > >Wim I read that the actual cost of a wintel machine in an enterprise setting is close to $22K annually, because most people spend a sizable proportion of their time ( >15%) "futzing" (the article's terminology, not mine) around, that is, downloading and installing the newest version of software X, changing settings, and, of course, rebooting. Carlos. From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 6 20:17:02 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:36 2005 Subject: Optimem 600 worm drives References: from"Huw Davies" at Apr 06, 2000 12:22:44 PM Message-ID: <000b01bfa02e$fe0a7060$0400c0a8@winbook> 'turns out that the doc's I have are for OptoTech drives, not Optimem. Sorry - The doc's reminded me that the interface we dealt with most of the time in the mid-'80's was a modified ESDI. If these are SCSI you're probably OK, but if it looks like ESDI, be CERTAIN you get the matching controller. The WORM drives I remember from Sperry, OptoTech, Cherokee, etc, all used a modified ESDI interface. That meant you had to have the matching controller with the matching firmware. BTW ... Be careful what you get into with that R.J. Kulman guy, and don't buy anything the functionality, condition, completeness, and normal price of which is not precisely known to you. He's famous for selling things way above retail when he can, and seldom has complete units. The O Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ford To: Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 4:01 PM Subject: Re: Optimem 600 worm drives > >I may still have some documentation, etc, for Optimem hardware. I once had > >the task of integrating them in to a microVAX in place of the TK50. If the > >doc's turn up in the next few days, I'll let you know. They may help with > >the eBay auction. > > > >They subsequently went under and were acquired by Sperry, IIRC. > > Any information should help. I don't think these have some special value, > except maybe to some certain small group that still uses them, but it was > one of those if I don't buy it, it goes in the shredder. Most disgusting. I > was only able to save two out of four brand new units I found, the other > two were a bit mashed by sloppy loading. > > I "think" I know someone who may have a LOT of these sitting in a warehouse > in the factory shipping boxes, so I am going to discretely question him on > media etc. RJ Kuhlman (the SCSI guy always selling drives etc. in the SCSI > newsgroups) has been trying to sell some of these for the last few months, > starting at $150 and latest was $100 w del, so maybe the batch I knew of > has been shifted. > > From Technoid at cheta.net Thu Apr 6 20:14:24 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:36 2005 Subject: Sun Workstation SUCCESS! In-Reply-To: <38ED2A86.7DCEE4CC@rain.org> Message-ID: <200004070125.VAA04992@lexington.ioa.net> I've repaired the machine to the degree and understand the operating system to the degree I can "TELNET NETHER.NET" and log on to the Nether.net free shell account server via ethernet. This is cool. The default route for the sun box is 192.168.0.3 which is an OS/2 Warp 3 machine on my intranet running INJOY (a NAT router) routing over a ansync modem connection. Looks like a real route but isn't ;-) Thought you all might like to know the project is progressing well. The sun box in question is a Sun Sparcstation 330 with 48mb ram. Thanks for everyone who helped. Especially: CHRIS Kennedy for sage advice and hooking me up with software I really need -- legally no less! MICHAEL Lorenz for sage advice Aaron Finney for sage advice! Carlos Murillo for kind assistance Joe@instellistar for laughing at my 'nuke redmond' jokes Jeff Wyman fir moral support R. "bear" Stricklin for asking Chris B for loving me even if I do get hung up on a new machine All of your help has been well appreciated and I hope to continue contact with you all (especially Chrissy because we are to be married in Sept if she doesn't mind a basement full of arcane computer gear) -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu Apr 6 21:00:09 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:36 2005 Subject: Watcom C Message-ID: <20000407020009.19120.qmail@hotmail.com> John, I have VAX C also if that would help... I'd offer you OS/32 C, but I don't think you have an Interdata/Perkin-Elmer/Concurrent, heh. Will J ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Apr 6 21:02:46 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:36 2005 Subject: Watcom C In-Reply-To: <200004070117.VAA27267@bg-tc-ppp675.monmouth.com>; from pechter@pechter.dyndns.org on Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 09:17:12PM -0400 References: <20000406160826.A24530@dbit.dbit.com> <200004070117.VAA27267@bg-tc-ppp675.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <20000406220246.A25542@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 09:17:12PM -0400, Bill Pechter wrote: > I've got an unused IBM OS/2 C compiler... also there's always GCC... > What do you need... The problem isn't so much generating code, as linking it into .DLL files. I burned off a *lot* of brain cells writing a linking loader for Win16 "NE" format .DLL files (ooh I hate Microsoft *SO MUCH*), and I'm really not excited about the idea of starting from scratch and writing an ELF loader too, just to use GCC output. Although in the long run that may be necessary. Anyway, all of the good ol' LINK/TLINK/WLINK linkers from Win16 days will generate these files OK, but normally they'll *also* link in a startup module which makes a bunch of Win16 calls before calling the user's LibMain() routine. Faking those Win16 entry points is a pain, but figuring out the undocumented guts of the respective C libraries and writing a replacement startup module for each one, just for running under E11, would be even more of a pain. And even if I got that all done, I have no confidence that M$/Borland will continue supporting the 16-bit .DLL formats indefinitely (if they still do at all). Watcom's a lot nicer about not gratuitously axing old stuff, well except for the compiler itself! And I just loved discovering that the linker could generate ELF files using regular 80x86 .OBJ files as input, I had actually started writing my own linker to solve that problem and it was a real relief to be saved the trouble, I can't believe Watcom hardly even admitted the feature was there though, I only found it in WLINK's built-in help, I don't think it's in the manual or the on-line help. > and have been hoping for the > KL equivalent someday... One of these days! John Wilson D Bit From nerdware at laidbak.com Thu Apr 6 21:06:27 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:36 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: References: <001501bf9fe5$fd0bcf40$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <200004070205.VAA16561@garcon.laidbak.com> Apparently, Zane Healy uttered some of the following: > > OK, I can no longer resist commenting on this. WHERE IS MICROSOFT'S > INNOVATION?!?!?! > Amen, brother. > Let's look at some of their programs through the years. > > MS BASIC: > Basically a port of DEC BASIC Unfortunately, way too many people think that MS invented BASIC, and don't know or want to know that Paul Allen just rearranged it to run on an Altair. > > MS DOS: > They bought a clone of CP/M QDOS has been shown to have a significant portion of commands lifted from CP/M. Gary Kildall had a whole list, but the "author" of QDOS wouldn't own up to it. Again, MS just bought someone else's OS because they didn't have one of their own. > > MS Windows: > Mac OS And to a degree, from Xerox. At least Apple had worked with Xerox's engineers. They brought it out first, made it work, made it accessible. Only after M$ saw that people were starting to like it did they try Windows. And Windows, unlike Mac OS or AmigaDOS, was simply a graphical patch on top of the real cash cow, MS-DOS. I mean, EVERY Mac and Amiga app worked with the given system mouse. With Windows, you had to decide if the mouse you were buying was compatible with your software, and then you had to install an interface card, and then you had to pray that it kept working. If the mouse on my Mac or my Amiga stops working, something is seriously hosed. Plus, the resolution on Mac and Amiga mice is way better than any Windows mouse. > > MS Windows NT: > OS/2 and VMS (OK, so they did help develop this, but OS/2 was trash until > IBM took it over. Of course IBM blew it big time with OS/2.) > First mistake was having MS write the original OS/2. Ballmer has said publicly that they only took on the project to keep in IBM's good graces. They had no incentive whatsoever to do a good job with it, as it would cut into their market share for MS-DOS. OS/2 Warp3 and Warp4 kicked butt as OS's (fully multitasking/multithreaded, handled large disk volumes, no ridiculous 640k memory limitations). Only problem was lack of apps, and that was mainly due to MS's bullying and threat tactics to potential vendors and IBM itself. IBM should have pushed harder, but they caved too early. > MS Windows 95: > Mac OS and NeXTstep (OK, the "System Properties" in the "Control Panels" > is the one mildly cool thing about this. I don't know if there is prior > art of any type for this.). > And they treated it like the second coming of Christ. Gates appeared on late night talk shows, everyone was talking about how MS developed this fabulous new operating system that would revolutionize the way people compute (unlike the more mature windowing OS's that Apple, NeXT, and Amiga or, for that matter, Atari had been using since the '80's). Everyone thought MS invented the mouse, and they were happy to let you believe that. And it was still just a graphical patch on top of DOS. > MS Explorer: > Netscape (I won't even credit them with having looked at Mosaic) > Again, bought someone else's work and claimed it as their own. "Internet? Big deal. It's just a fad. Who cares? What? Netscape is actually making money? Ok. Here's what we do. Let's buy Mosaic, call it something Microsoft, bundle it with Windows, and tell people that we've decided the Internet is the wave of the future." > MS Window 98: > Bug fixes for '95 and bundled MS Explorer Right. Fixed 3,000 bugs in OSR2, which supposedly was a huge bug fix for 95a. Created about that many of it's own, plus obsoleted a bunch of hardware, and forced you to use a damn browser window to look at directories. Plus, it included that fabulous channel bar that would allow them to force advertising on you, except that outside their little Redmond paradis, not everyone has a T1 in their den.....or wants Disney stuff forced on to their desktop. > > MS Windows 2000: > Technologies bought from everywhere, just how much of OpenVMS have they > licensed/bought for this? I actually want to give it a try, but haven't > had the chance. Internal memo from development indicated that the "Final Shipping Version" still had 65,000 bugs in it....and this was after thousands of suckers had paid $90 for a beta to work them out.....and then got no discount or credit towards the retail version, an annoying practice that dates back to Win95. > > MS Word: > Various word processors > Actually, came from Xerox PARC. Charles Simonyi wrote a WSYIWG wp for the Alto and when it looked like Xerox didn't have a clue what to do with it, MS hired him and he brought it with him. Only thing was, it had to be downgraded to run on DOS........ > MS Excel: > Various spreadsheets > Originally, a clone of Lotus 1-2-3, which was a blatant ripoff from VisiCalc, a fact which to this day Lotus's originator feels bad about. > MS PowerPoint: > Harvard Graphics I knew there was a prototype for this one, just wasn't sure what it was. > > MS Foxpro (is this still around): > They bought it Yes, it's still around, and the one machine I had to install it on in my office suffered terminal registry errors and had to be reghosted back to a baseline install. > > MS Access (isn't this the one that was a failed communications product): ? Don't know this one. > > MS Access (the DB): > Various Databases, it's got a rep for loosing data last I heard. Clone of dBase. > > MSASM, MS Fortran, MS C, etc.: > Ports of existing stuff Yup. > > MS Visual BASIC: > Now this one has bothered me for several years, did they buy the > underlying technology or copy something that already existed. I've a > strange feeling that this one was actual innovation! > Object-oriented programming was nothing new, and certainly wasn't a MS innovation. > There is other stuff, but I think that paints a fairly accurate picture of > their innovation! > > Basically their innovation is in copying existing stuff, repackaging it, > and tricking people into thinking they've just come up with something new. > Microsoft should be heralded as the most successful marketing and advertising firm in the history of computing, but certainly not an innovator. By sheer stupid luck, they got hitched on to IBM at a time when personal computers were considered toys, but an "IBM PC" just HAD to be a real computer, right? Gate's real genius lies in his ability to dynamically rewrite history to fit his own needs and bully everyone into his way of doing things, no matter how wrong they are. Ballmer once said in an interview that it was more important to ship a product on time than it was to ship a product that worked. They could always issue service patches later. The real problem is that people just accept that and let them get away with it. Appliance operators who don't have a clue what is in their machines or even what an OS actually is know that they have to have "Intel Inside" (sorry Zane...) and Windows 2000 and Microsoft Office because that's what all the advertising has told them. Doesn't matter that an iMac may do everything they need faster and easier, it doesn't have Intel and Microsoft. Have they tried alternatives? Maybe WordPerfect would be better for them, but because MS told the PC builder that they'd yank their Windows license if they even thought about bundling WordPerfect, the user sees Word on the computer and just accepts it. Same with AOL or MSN. I'm tired and hungry now. This subject always sets me off. MS's original mission statement in 1975 says it all...."A pc on every desktop running MS software." It's not about money for Gates, it's about total control. He can't accept anything else, and can't understand why everyone else doesn't see things his way. It's in his psychology. Paul Braun Cygnus Productions nerdware_nospam@laidbak.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 6 21:06:59 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:36 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: from "Stephen Dauphin" at Apr 06, 2000 07:39:02 PM Message-ID: <200004070206.TAA10203@shell1.aracnet.com> > How much did their purchase of Spyglass [the company and the > product same name(?)] affect the look and feel of Explorer? Did they Didn't realize that they had. > > MS Visual BASIC: > > Now this one has bothered me for several years, did they buy the underlying > > technology or copy something that already existed. I've a strange feeling > > that this one was actual innovation! > > > > I haven't had the urge to look at VB. How visual and how object oriented > is it? I believe Serius Developer for Mac precedes it. Serius was sold by > its founder to Novell who renamed it Appware and seemed to carry it to > version 1.2. Was this Novell's effort at competing with VB? It became a > dual platform (Win and Mac) development environment, a connect the module > (ALMs - Appware Load Modules) IDE. I believe the modules were written in > another language, probably C. I think just before its swan dive in > 1994(?) they renamed it AppBuilder, but whether that was just cosmetics > or real changes I don't know. Using their search engine, I find > that Novell has managed to expunge virtually all mention of either > product from its web site. Technically this is on topic as the start date > for Serius has to be over ten years ago or at least close. I spent some serious time learning it when it first came out in late '91. Even V1.0 was a *very* cool product, however, it didn't run on OS/2 as advertised so I couldn't use it much till OS/2 2.0 came out (which could run Windows Apps). I've not touched it since '95 when I got my first Mac. You basically draw the interface, and then write code for what happens when you do something such as click on a button. There is finally the equivalent for the Mac, but I've not gotten a copy. What I'd *really* love is a nice cross platform version that would run on Mac, Windows, and Linux at least. It's a fantastic tool for writing little apps, however, I find the thought of people making $100+ an hour writing VB apps crazy. Worse is when major apps are written in it. > Similarly, what happened to Layout? I assume it also doesn't exist > anymore. > > I wonder if there were any last patches, updates or extra code > (modules) for both products, material that is now forever lost? > > Anybody have either of these two products in any of their various > incarnations? I don't believe I've actually ever heard of either of them. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 6 21:23:14 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:36 2005 Subject: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000406211233.011647c4@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> from "Carlos Murillo" at Apr 06, 2000 09:12:33 PM Message-ID: <200004070223.TAA11203@shell1.aracnet.com> > I read that the actual cost of a wintel machine in an enterprise setting > is close to $22K annually, because most people spend a sizable > proportion of their time ( >15%) "futzing" (the article's terminology, not > mine) around, that is, downloading and installing the newest version > of software X, changing settings, and, of course, rebooting. > > Carlos. One of the best stories I've heard along this is about someplace that was moving from VMS to NT. They canned the two people doing VMS and had to replace them with about 20 people supporting NT. Then about *two years* later they had a problem with the VMS cluster that they had to get someone in to fix. The point being the VMS cluster had run unattended for two years! People look at Microsoft and say "this is cheap", BUT they don't look at the total cost of ownership! The support costs are deadly, and I've seen reports that MS's licensing is starting cost businesses more thanks to recent changes. Zane From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu Apr 6 21:35:51 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:36 2005 Subject: Watcom C In-Reply-To: <20000406220246.A25542@dbit.dbit.com> from John Wilson at "Apr 6, 2000 10:02:46 pm" Message-ID: <200004070235.WAA27407@bg-tc-ppp675.monmouth.com> > On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 09:17:12PM -0400, Bill Pechter wrote: > > I've got an unused IBM OS/2 C compiler... also there's always GCC... > > What do you need... > > The problem isn't so much generating code, as linking it into .DLL files. > I burned off a *lot* of brain cells writing a linking loader for Win16 "NE" > format .DLL files (ooh I hate Microsoft *SO MUCH*), and I'm really not excited > about the idea of starting from scratch and writing an ELF loader too, just > to use GCC output. Although in the long run that may be necessary. Anyway, > all of the good ol' LINK/TLINK/WLINK linkers from Win16 days will generate > these files OK, but normally they'll *also* link in a startup module which > makes a bunch of Win16 calls before calling the user's LibMain() routine. > Faking those Win16 entry points is a pain, but figuring out the undocumented > guts of the respective C libraries and writing a replacement startup module > for each one, just for running under E11, would be even more of a pain. Geez... I thought the gcc for dos could do what you need... > > and have been hoping for the > > KL equivalent someday... > > One of these days! > > John Wilson > D Bit > Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu Apr 6 21:36:22 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:36 2005 Subject: Watcom C In-Reply-To: <20000407020009.19120.qmail@hotmail.com> from Will Jennings at "Apr 6, 2000 08:00:09 pm" Message-ID: <200004070236.WAA27416@bg-tc-ppp675.monmouth.com> > John, > I have VAX C also if that would help... I'd offer you OS/32 C, but I don't > think you have an Interdata/Perkin-Elmer/Concurrent, heh. > > Will J > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > OS/32. Ugh... glad I don't have to do that anymore... Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From g at kurico.com Thu Apr 6 21:49:01 2000 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:36 2005 Subject: VAX 6000-410 available in SA, TX In-Reply-To: <20000406144200.D10616@puttybox.com> References: ; from mac@Wireless.Com on Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 10:26:28PM -0700 Message-ID: <38ED064D.30060.A78754@localhost> At the UT Health Science Center this Saturday (8th) the above mentioned VAX is a part of the auction. Don't know exactly what they have with it, just know that there will be one. Here is the address: The University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio 7703 Floyd Curl Drive, San Antonio, Texas The auction starts at 9am. George From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 7 00:47:48 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:36 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: <000301bf9fd8$07be2f40$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> <200004062336.TAA26522@world.std.com> Message-ID: <002b01bfa054$d0ef3d60$0400c0a8@winbook> Just to get in my 2-cents' worth, I've got a server running Netware 3.11 that's been down (intentionally) twice since I put it up in 1990. It was down on one other occasion, because a diode in the UPS failed. The Winbook, by the way, has been without a crash since Jun '97 when I bought it. The majority of occasions on which other boxes have been down have been due to hardware failures or upgrades, and not to reinstall WIndows, though a lot of reinstallations are used 'round the world in place of learning what the problem really is. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Megan To: Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 5:36 PM Subject: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond! > > >Just to remind everyone, the system I'm using to process my email has > >never "crashed" or behaved anomalously in any way. Of course, it's a > >notebook, so I haven't had much motive to stick my hands inside. > > I have an NT-based PC at work, and I've never stuck my hands into it > either, but I regularly have to reboot the damn thing. If I go a few > days without having to reboot it, I count myself lucky... > > Same thing with one of my home PCs, but on that one, I have to reboot > daily, if not more... > > ...but I have numerous DEC systems which have been running NON-STOP for a > *YEAR* or more... > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > > +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | > | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | > | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | > | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | > | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | > | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | > +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Apr 7 01:53:25 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:36 2005 Subject: Optimem 600 worm drives In-Reply-To: <000b01bfa02e$fe0a7060$0400c0a8@winbook> References: from"Huw Davies" at Apr 06, 2000 12:22:44 PM Message-ID: >BTW ... Be careful what you get into with that R.J. Kulman guy, and don't >buy anything the functionality, condition, completeness, and normal price of >which is not precisely known to you. He's famous for selling things way >above retail when he can, and seldom has complete units. Thanks for looking, and they AFAIK are plain 50 pin narrow SCSI. The guy doesn't sound bad at all in comparison to Microsoft (sorry sorry, but it was fun saying it.). From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Apr 6 15:31:21 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:36 2005 Subject: pdp11/70 / MK11 Message-ID: <20000406203121.22005.qmail@web614.mail.yahoo.com> --- CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >Does anybody know if it's possible to run an 11/70 without the MK11 memory > >box ? > > Sure, get a MJ11 memory box (or, rather, 4 times as many MJ11's as you > had MK11's) :-). Umm... sure. _That's_ an improvement. > There are several other third-party memory boxes/cards available too. How many of these are floating around these days? Serious question, no smiley. I have two PDP-11/70s, both with, I assume, MK11 boxes and am interested in low-power alternatives for memory. > Out of curiosity, why can't you use your MK11's? Not enough power to > run them and the 11/70 at the same time? I had to take multiple 15A > circuits to run my 11/70 with MJ11 memory boxes. In _my_ case, power is the issue. I have a 60A circuit for the entire outbuilding that houses my larger stuff, none of which is powered on at the moment. I need to wire up a 30A Hubble Twist-n-lock outlet so I can plug in either an 11/750 or an 11/70 out there, but once I do, I'll be interested in firing up one of the beasts. Just so I'm not making a serious assumtion here, an MK11 is the high- density memory cabinet for the 11/70, right? What I have is an entire H960 rack with one BA-11 that houses 16 256K boards (mess-o-4116 DRAMs) and some incidental memory controller cards. Do I have what I think I have? -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Fri Apr 7 07:50:16 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:36 2005 Subject: pdp11/70 / MK11 In-Reply-To: <20000406203121.22005.qmail@web614.mail.yahoo.com> from Ethan Dicks at "Apr 6, 2000 01:31:21 pm" Message-ID: <200004071250.IAA28530@bg-tc-ppp326.monmouth.com> > Just so I'm not making a serious assumtion here, an MK11 is the high- > density memory cabinet for the 11/70, right? What I have is an entire > H960 rack with one BA-11 that houses 16 256K boards (mess-o-4116 DRAMs) > and some incidental memory controller cards. Do I have what I think > I have? > > -ethan Sure sounds like MK-11 to me. My last 11/70 service call was a year after I left DEC. Reminds me of the time I went on a TRW support call to Skokie to Grainger and found the techs working (for weeks) on an 11/70 running RSTS/E. They had a memory problem which got so bad they couldn't boot XXDP+. They claimed they swapped memory... and the controller. Well, these Vax trained weenies were dead in the water and the customer was hot... I asked for some error logs and ERRDIS printouts showed intermittant correctable memory errors back to Sept. (this was Jan.)... The folks had been swapping the cache. I toggled in 014747 @ 10000(is my memory correct) and found it failed on accesses to addresses with 2 and 6 as the last byte I moved the MK memory to one side of the box and it booted without interleaving... Case closed. Actual time less than an hour to get these guys on track. The techs also had down an RM05 an 11/34a which wouldn't boot RSX11/M. I just had 'em swap the RM05 and found a bad backplane in the 11/34a to get myself on a plane out of there for home. I decided not to make fun of DEC techs after working for the third party competition -- which was usually worse -- less training, less diags, less parts, less understanding and often less paid. These folks would get one or two of the better DEC guys and have em support a bunch of right out of tech school board swappers who were ok at the low end uPDP11's and LSI's -- and VAX systems -- but who choked bigtime on large 11's with diverse comm and real time device connectivity. The best DEC techs new the OS as well as the hardware... and could troubleshoot with both diags and scopes. AND COULD READ ERRORLOGS. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From cchd at kerberos.davies.net.au Fri Apr 7 07:52:16 2000 From: cchd at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:36 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000406080910.01999ef0@pc> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, John Foust wrote: > I heard that DEC is making PCs and laptops these days that come bundled > with Windows. Unless I'm sadly mistaken, DEC no longer exists. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Apr 7 08:52:35 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:36 2005 Subject: pdp11/70 / MK11 Message-ID: <000407095235.20200257@trailing-edge.com> >> Sure, get a MJ11 memory box (or, rather, 4 times as many MJ11's as you >> had MK11's) :-). >Umm... sure. _That's_ an improvement. Hey, but it's real core! >> There are several other third-party memory boxes/cards available too. >How many of these are floating around these days? Serious question, no >smiley. Probably pretty difficult to find. >> Out of curiosity, why can't you use your MK11's? Not enough power to >> run them and the 11/70 at the same time? I had to take multiple 15A >> circuits to run my 11/70 with MJ11 memory boxes. >Just so I'm not making a serious assumtion here, an MK11 is the high- >density memory cabinet for the 11/70, right? What I have is an entire >H960 rack with one BA-11 that houses 16 256K boards (mess-o-4116 DRAMs) >and some incidental memory controller cards. Do I have what I think >I have? The "original" MK11 goes up to 1 Mbyte in a box, according to my books. It certainly was common to see them upgraded in the field to the configuration that you have, though I don't know what the official DEC designation for the high-density version was. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Fri Apr 7 09:57:20 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:36 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: from Huw Davies at "Apr 7, 2000 10:52:16 pm" Message-ID: <200004071457.KAA28710@bg-tc-ppp326.monmouth.com> > On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, John Foust wrote: > > > I heard that DEC is making PCs and laptops these days that come bundled > > with Windows. > > Unless I'm sadly mistaken, DEC no longer exists. > > Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au > DEC lives in my heart forever. I bleed DEC Vax blue and PDP11 Magenta (sorry LCG guys... no China Red). -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From ghldbrd at ccp.com Fri Apr 7 15:52:50 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:36 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <200004070205.VAA16561@garcon.laidbak.com> Message-ID: Hello Paul On 06-Apr-00, you wrote: > Apparently, Zane Healy uttered some of the following: >> >> OK, I can no longer resist commenting on this. WHERE IS MICROSOFT'S >> INNOVATION?!?!?! >> > Amen, brother. > > >> Let's look at some of their programs through the years. >> >> MS BASIC: >> Basically a port of DEC BASIC > > Unfortunately, way too many people think that MS invented BASIC, > and don't know or want to know that Paul Allen just rearranged it to > run on an Altair. > >> >> MS DOS: >> They bought a clone of CP/M > > QDOS has been shown to have a significant portion of commands > lifted from CP/M. Gary Kildall had a whole list, but the "author" of > QDOS wouldn't own up to it. Again, MS just bought someone > else's OS because they didn't have one of their own. > >> >> MS Windows: >> Mac OS > > And to a degree, from Xerox. At least Apple had worked with > Xerox's engineers. They brought it out first, made it work, made it > accessible. Only after M$ saw that people were starting to like it > did they try Windows. And Windows, unlike Mac OS or > AmigaDOS, was simply a graphical patch on top of the real cash > cow, MS-DOS. I mean, EVERY Mac and Amiga app worked with > the given system mouse. With Windows, you had to decide if the > mouse you were buying was compatible with your software, and > then you had to install an interface card, and then you had to pray > that it kept working. If the mouse on my Mac or my Amiga stops > working, something is seriously hosed. Plus, the resolution on Mac > and Amiga mice is way better than any Windows mouse. >> >> MS Windows NT: >> OS/2 and VMS (OK, so they did help develop this, but OS/2 was trash until >> IBM took it over. Of course IBM blew it big time with OS/2.) >> > First mistake was having MS write the original OS/2. Ballmer has > said publicly that they only took on the project to keep in IBM's > good graces. They had no incentive whatsoever to do a good job > with it, as it would cut into their market share for MS-DOS. OS/2 > Warp3 and Warp4 kicked butt as OS's (fully > multitasking/multithreaded, handled large disk volumes, no > ridiculous 640k memory limitations). Only problem was lack of > apps, and that was mainly due to MS's bullying and threat tactics > to potential vendors and IBM itself. IBM should have pushed harder, > but they caved too early. > >> MS Windows 95: >> Mac OS and NeXTstep (OK, the "System Properties" in the "Control Panels" >> is the one mildly cool thing about this. I don't know if there is prior >> art of any type for this.). >> > > And they treated it like the second coming of Christ. Gates > appeared on late night talk shows, everyone was talking about how > MS developed this fabulous new operating system that would > revolutionize the way people compute (unlike the more mature > windowing OS's that Apple, NeXT, and Amiga or, for that matter, > Atari had been using since the '80's). Everyone thought MS > invented the mouse, and they were happy to let you believe that. > And it was still just a graphical patch on top of DOS. > >> MS Explorer: >> Netscape (I won't even credit them with having looked at Mosaic) >> > > Again, bought someone else's work and claimed it as their own. > "Internet? Big deal. It's just a fad. Who cares? > > What? Netscape is actually making money? Ok. Here's what we > do. Let's buy Mosaic, call it something Microsoft, bundle it with > Windows, and tell people that we've decided the Internet is the > wave of the future." > > >> MS Window 98: >> Bug fixes for '95 and bundled MS Explorer > > Right. Fixed 3,000 bugs in OSR2, which supposedly was a huge > bug fix for 95a. Created about that many of it's own, plus obsoleted > a bunch of hardware, and forced you to use a damn browser > window to look at directories. Plus, it included that fabulous > channel bar that would allow them to force advertising on you, > except that outside their little Redmond paradis, not everyone has > a T1 in their den.....or wants Disney stuff forced on to their desktop. > >> >> MS Windows 2000: >> Technologies bought from everywhere, just how much of OpenVMS have they >> licensed/bought for this? I actually want to give it a try, but haven't >> had the chance. > > Internal memo from development indicated that the "Final Shipping > Version" still had 65,000 bugs in it....and this was after thousands > of suckers had paid $90 for a beta to work them out.....and then > got no discount or credit towards the retail version, an annoying > practice that dates back to Win95. >> >> MS Word: >> Various word processors >> > Actually, came from Xerox PARC. Charles Simonyi wrote a > WSYIWG wp for the Alto and when it looked like Xerox didn't have > a clue what to do with it, MS hired him and he brought it with him. > Only thing was, it had to be downgraded to run on DOS........ > >> MS Excel: >> Various spreadsheets >> > Originally, a clone of Lotus 1-2-3, which was a blatant ripoff from > VisiCalc, a fact which to this day Lotus's originator feels bad about. > >> MS PowerPoint: >> Harvard Graphics > > I knew there was a prototype for this one, just wasn't sure what it > was. >> >> MS Foxpro (is this still around): >> They bought it > > Yes, it's still around, and the one machine I had to install it on in > my office suffered terminal registry errors and had to be reghosted > back to a baseline install. >> >> MS Access (isn't this the one that was a failed communications product): ? > > Don't know this one. >> >> MS Access (the DB): >> Various Databases, it's got a rep for loosing data last I heard. > > Clone of dBase. >> >> MSASM, MS Fortran, MS C, etc.: >> Ports of existing stuff > > Yup. >> >> MS Visual BASIC: >> Now this one has bothered me for several years, did they buy the >> underlying technology or copy something that already existed. I've a >> strange feeling that this one was actual innovation! >> > > Object-oriented programming was nothing new, and certainly > wasn't a MS innovation. > >> There is other stuff, but I think that paints a fairly accurate picture of >> their innovation! >> >> Basically their innovation is in copying existing stuff, repackaging it, >> and tricking people into thinking they've just come up with something new. >> > > > > Microsoft should be heralded as the most successful marketing > and advertising firm in the history of computing, but certainly not an > innovator. By sheer stupid luck, they got hitched on to IBM at a > time when personal computers were considered toys, but an "IBM > PC" just HAD to be a real computer, right? Gate's real genius lies > in his ability to dynamically rewrite history to fit his own needs and > bully everyone into his way of doing things, no matter how wrong > they are. Ballmer once said in an interview that it was more > important to ship a product on time than it was to ship a product > that worked. They could always issue service patches later. The > real problem is that people just accept that and let them get away > with it. Appliance operators who don't have a clue what is in their > machines or even what an OS actually is know that they have to > have "Intel Inside" (sorry Zane...) and Windows 2000 and Microsoft > Office because that's what all the advertising has told them. > Doesn't matter that an iMac may do everything they need faster > and easier, it doesn't have Intel and Microsoft. > > Have they tried alternatives? Maybe WordPerfect would be better > for them, but because MS told the PC builder that they'd yank their > Windows license if they even thought about bundling WordPerfect, > the user sees Word on the computer and just accepts it. Same > with AOL or MSN. > > I'm tired and hungry now. This subject always sets me off. MS's > original mission statement in 1975 says it all...."A pc on every > desktop running MS software." It's not about money for Gates, it's > about total control. He can't accept anything else, and can't > understand why everyone else doesn't see things his way. It's in > his psychology. > > > > > > > Paul Braun > Cygnus Productions > nerdware_nospam@laidbak.com > May I stand up and applaud your honesty . . . May I add a couple of quotes from an old college roommate who went on to design harddrives fro Hewlett-Packard, IOmega and Maxtor . . . . 1. Once a computer or operating system becomes a standard, it is obsolete. 2. You can't BS electrons. Gary Hildebrand Amiga lover forever From blergh at dds.nl Fri Apr 7 11:14:40 2000 From: blergh at dds.nl (Erik Brens) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:37 2005 Subject: pdp11/70 / MK11 In-Reply-To: <20000406203121.22005.qmail@web614.mail.yahoo.com>; from ethan_dicks@yahoo.com on Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 01:31:21PM -0700 References: <20000406203121.22005.qmail@web614.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000407181440.A5766@stronghold.xs4all.nl> On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 01:31:21PM -0700, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Just so I'm not making a serious assumtion here, an MK11 is the high- > density memory cabinet for the 11/70, right? What I have is an entire > H960 rack with one BA-11 that houses 16 256K boards (mess-o-4116 DRAMs) > and some incidental memory controller cards. Do I have what I think > I have. Look at the back of the BA-11, on the DEC label. It's very likely you have indeed MK11's. I ran my 11/70 of a single 16A 220V outlet without problems, ofcourse I only have 6 memory boards in the MK11. If you want to save on power usage, remove some of the MK11 256K boards, the 11/70 will be still be happy with "only" 1MB of RAM. Erik. From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 7 11:19:05 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:37 2005 Subject: Optimem 600 worm drives References: from"HuwDavies" at Apr 06, 2000 12:22:44 PM Message-ID: <000b01bfa0ad$01d0a2e0$0400c0a8@winbook> Well, you may think that Microsoft overcharges you, but hang onto your hat when dealing with this guy! It's not so bad, provided you have a written (not emailed) list of what's supposed to be included with the product you think he's selling you and have sent him a written P.O. that specifies the details as you understand them. Also, it's best to ensure your drive is single-ended and not differential. He often leaves such details out of a description. Now, I haven't had dealings with him for several years, but I'd be careful nonetheless. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ford To: Sent: Friday, April 07, 2000 12:53 AM Subject: Re: Optimem 600 worm drives > >BTW ... Be careful what you get into with that R.J. Kulman guy, and don't > >buy anything the functionality, condition, completeness, and normal price of > >which is not precisely known to you. He's famous for selling things way > >above retail when he can, and seldom has complete units. > > Thanks for looking, and they AFAIK are plain 50 pin narrow SCSI. The guy > doesn't sound bad at all in comparison to Microsoft (sorry sorry, but it > was fun saying it.). > > From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Apr 7 11:53:06 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:37 2005 Subject: VAX 11/730 available In-Reply-To: <20000404222613.2778.qmail@web611.mail.yahoo.com> from Ethan Dicks at "Apr 4, 2000 03:26:13 pm" Message-ID: <200004071653.LAA23316@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > > --- Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > There is a VAX 11/730 available in Minneapolis. Obviously i'm not shipping > > it, or having anything to do with it. if you want it, and can come tpick it > > up in minneapolis, i can put you in contact with the person who has it. > > > > Otherwise, i will of course attempt to grab any useful boards and such > > before it goes to the recyclers. At that time, i would then post what > > is available to the list. > > Which style is it? One style has disks above and below the CPU (11/730-Z?), > the other has the CPU in something that's more like a BA-11 with the TU-58 > at the top of the rack. I have one of the ultra-cramped ones with the CPU > in the middle. I don't have one with the CPU at the top. > > -ethan > The VAX 11/730 has a cpu in the middle. -Lawrence LeMay From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Apr 7 12:06:50 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:37 2005 Subject: The VAX stuff Message-ID: <200004071706.MAA23374@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Since Anthony Clifton volunteered to drive to minneapolis and grab virtually al of the small VAX stuff that i mentioned yesterday, i'll just let him have the stuff (assuming thats ok with the professor who is disposing of the stuff). Thanks for your interest, and i'll keep posting if i find more stuff that i dont want or need. -Lawrence LeMay From cem14 at cornell.edu Fri Apr 7 12:16:31 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:37 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: <200004060337.UAA30035@shell1.aracnet.com> <3.0.5.32.20000405225930.0093c640@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <38EE17EF.D547A67C@cornell.edu> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > OK, I can no longer resist commenting on this. WHERE IS MICROSOFT'S > INNOVATION?!?!?! > > Let's look at some of their programs through the years. It's even worse, Zane; an proven business tactic of MS is to snatch up startups that hold patents which MS sees as competing against MS's view of the future. Then they kill the corresponding technology by offering ridiculous licensing terms. Carlos. -- Carlos Murillo-Sanchez email: cem14@cornell.edu 428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853 From cem14 at cornell.edu Fri Apr 7 12:35:16 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:37 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: <005101bf9fe8$5c13e520$0400c0a8@winbook> <38ECD3B4.CF9FE619@cornell.edu> <00ab01bf9ffd$81c0c620$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <38EE1C54.38DC16E2@cornell.edu> Richard Erlacher wrote: > The short verson is that you're right! I haven't encountered even one > problem with the libraries I used under CP/M, and that is due, in part, to > the fact I seldom used them. If you are using C, you must use libc . If you are using FORTRAN, you must use libF77. And finally, you need to use the optimizer/code generator of the corresponding compiler. I had MS Fortran powerstation "optimize" out operations by totally failing to execute them! (well, actually, disassembling showed that it actually forgot to save the result of the operation...) if you grouped parentheses in a certain way. Then the thing leaked memory... even when using static allocation! > Well, the OS was written to be used with applications, including, as you > say, certain compilers and other tools. If they don't work the way they > should, there should be legal consequences. I take great pains to test my > hardware and verify the documents I deliver with it truly represents what > happens in normal operation. If Microsoft, or any other vendor for that > matter, fails to do that, it's because too many people let them get away > with it. If there were lots of complaints, phone and written, they'd > gradually close those gaps. People are too lazy to complain, or they know > their complaints are unwarranted. Unless, of course, the only available product in the market for doing what you want is made by microsoft. Fortran powerstation failed spectacularly as soon as DEC came up with Digital Visual Fortran (a nice product, despite the name). And then there was the issue of how MS treated former fortran powerstation users... failing to provide fixes or refunds for a flawed product when they retired it. -- Carlos Murillo-Sanchez 428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853 From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Apr 7 12:41:39 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:37 2005 Subject: pdp11/70 / MK11 Message-ID: <20000407174140.26484.qmail@web617.mail.yahoo.com> --- CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >> Sure, get a MJ11 memory box (or, rather, 4 times as many MJ11's as you > >> had MK11's) :-). > > >Umm... sure. _That's_ an improvement. > > Hey, but it's real core! Ah! That _is_ an improvement. I only have core on my 11/20 (unrestored) and 11/05 (similarly unrestored). All of my working PDP-11s are MOS-based. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From cem14 at cornell.edu Fri Apr 7 12:45:16 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:37 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: <005101bf9fe8$5c13e520$0400c0a8@winbook> <38ECD3B4.CF9FE619@cornell.edu> <20000406160826.A24530@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <38EE1EAC.ECC43F17@cornell.edu> John Wilson wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 02:13:08PM -0400, Carlos Murillo-Sanchez wrote: > > I still use Watcom C R11, which has the added advantage > > that is more "unix-like". Too bad Watcom (a superior product) flopped > > and all developers were forced to use VS C . > -snip- > There's a rumor floating around the OS/2 PDD mailing list, that Watcom C > may be on the verge of being released as open source. That would sure > suit me fine, since my only complaint about the package is an annoying > linker bug which ought to be easy to fix, with source. And the ability to > produce executables for bletcherous GUI OSes w/o leaving the comfort of a > DOS development machine, is a pretty neat feature! For me, what I liked was that I could import most of my unix stuff verbatim to a pc, type "wmake" and more often than not end up with an executable. I don't use the IDE at all. I also liked the fact that I could easily create DLL's to be called by MATLAB (I do most of my "serious" work in a combined MATLAB/FORTRAN/C environment, under HPUX, Solaris and winblows). -- Carlos Murillo-Sanchez email: cem14@cornell.edu 428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853 From cem14 at cornell.edu Fri Apr 7 12:56:08 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:37 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: Message-ID: <38EE2138.DE287960@cornell.edu> Gary Hildebrand wrote: > - BIG SNIP - > May I stand up and applaud your honesty . . . > > May I add a couple of quotes from an old college roommate who went on to > design harddrives fro Hewlett-Packard, IOmega and Maxtor . . . . > > 1. Once a computer or operating system becomes a standard, it is > obsolete. > > 2. You can't BS electrons. Try telling #2 to many of the economists on advisory boards for electric deregulation. They still seem to believe that, given the right economic incentives, an electron may be convinced to forgo the call to heed Kirchoff's laws, and act in its best economic interest. Only until recent events in the California, New York and Penn-Maryland-New Jersey markets have some of the politicians begun to hear to some of the engineering concerns and actually pay attention. Sorry for the out of topic post. But hey, we were talking about [mono,duo,oligo]poly concerns... -- Carlos Murillo-Sanchez email: cem14@cornell.edu 428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853 From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 7 13:06:33 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:37 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond! (Huw Davies) References: <4.3.0.20000406080910.01999ef0@pc> Message-ID: <14574.9129.286124.322673@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 7, Huw Davies wrote: > > I heard that DEC is making PCs and laptops these days that come bundled > > with Windows. > > Unless I'm sadly mistaken, DEC no longer exists. So they got bought. I can still pick up the phone and order a VAX or an Alpha...and get a damn good machine. As long as I can do that, DEC exists. -Dave McGuire From spc at armigeron.com Fri Apr 7 14:13:47 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:37 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <00c101bfa002$c120e340$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 06, 2000 02:00:23 PM Message-ID: <200004071913.PAA09586@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > MS DOS: > > They bought a clone of CP/M > > > I used CP/M every day for about six years. When I saw my first MS-DOS, I > noted that the console command for a file list was 'DIR' and 'TYPE' and > that's where the similarity ended. The file system architecture and > associated function set was totally different from CP/M's, and the console > commands were different. What they had in common beyond 'DIR' was that they > responded to keyboard commands just like ALL other OS'. CP/M used PIP > rather than Copy. Are you now going to say they swiped that from OS-8? I > just can't convince my self that there's much in common between MSDOS and > CP/M. The similarities of MS-DOS to CP/M are mostly internal. In looking over the list of OS functions between the two, the first 36 functions of each are the same, with a few notable exceptions where the concept don't match (MS-DOS for example does not have an IOBYTE). There are also two ways to call MS-DOS functions, one through the documented interrupt call (INT 21h), the other a call to location 0005h (that is, for a COM program consisting of a single segment, calling location 0005h in the current segment has the same effect of calling INT 21h---for an EXE program you may not be able to do it since the PSP (the segment the call lives in) is in a different segment than the rest of the program typically)), which is how you call BDOS in CP/M. You can also terminate a program by calling location 0000h (again, in a COM program). In CP/M this causes a warm reset (similar functionality). The register usage is different, but that's only to be expected because of differences between the 8080 and 8086, but 8080 code could be mechanically translated to 8086 since there was a one-to-one relationship between registers. It wouldn't produce optimal code, but it would produce code that would more or less work and these register mappings map pretty well between the CP/M and MS-DOS calls. Tim Patterson, who wrote the initial version of MS-DOS while at Seattle Products, may have had access to CP/M sources since Seattle Products sold CP/M systems and they were working on an 8086 based computer in the late 70s. Tim probably modeled his QDOS (Quick-n-Dirty Operating System) closely after CP/M (some say he may have mechanically translated CP/M since copyright statements to Digital Research have allegedly been found in MS-DOS 1.x but I haven't seen any). Why not? It would have been a quick and easy way to get an OS for the 8086 system up and running. Microsoft's coming along and obtaining QDOS for $50,000 isn't that straightforward but that's a story for another time. > > MS Visual BASIC: > > Now this one has bothered me for several years, did they buy the underlying > > technology or copy something that already existed. I've a strange feeling > > that this one was actual innovation! Apple was working on a version of BASIC for the Macintosh that would resemble VB today in the late 80s/early 90s. Microsoft got wind of it and threatened to cut their license to Microsoft BASIC for the APPLE II (still amoney maker at the time) if Apple actually released the product. Apple towed the line and what do you know---Microsoft produces this very innovative product called Visual Basic shortly thereafter, but for Windows. To my knowledge, the Apple ``Visual Basic'' never saw the light of day. -spc (All on topic, stuff happened more than 10 years ago) From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 7 15:37:35 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:37 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <200004071913.PAA09586@armigeron.com> Message-ID: I'm truly surprised to see anyone doubt that MS-DOS was based on CP/M. Until recently, that was NEVER DENIED. What's next? - a revival of the absurdity that "Bill Gates wrote MS-DOS"?? Some folk feel that the similarity to CP/M is the only redeeming feature of MS-DOS. Tim Patterson's QDOS was explicitly and deliberately designed to be a placeholder while waiting for the release of CP/M-86. As such, it was as similar as was convenient. The API (application programming interface) is designed and intended to be the same. He did make a few substantial changes. One of which was the physical directory structure. SCP and Micros~1 had had prior dealings, including sharing computer faire booths, etc. In the course of those encounters, Patterson had seen the F.A.T. structure used in the stand-alone BASIC that Micros~1 peddled to various OEMs. The MS-DOS encyclopedia sspecifically mentions the Stand-Alone BASIC for NCR, but I wonder if that isn't a typo, and intended to be NEC? Anyone know? I have seen the one for NEC (PC8001a, which ALSO had CP/M available), but I have never heard of an NCR model that had the stand-alone BASIC. For those not familiar, a later version of it is what is on the Coco (Radio Shack Color Computer) For anyone who would like to read in detail about the similarities and differences, I heartily recommend "CP/M-86 vs. MSDOS : A Technical Comparison" by Dave Cortesi from Doctor Dobb's Journal #69, July 1982. [I have some reprints of it, that I will gladly give out to anyone who comes by and buys a video monitor] -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From sipke at wxs.nl Fri Apr 7 15:28:36 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:37 2005 Subject: DSSI Question Message-ID: <01d401bfa0d0$3e6659c0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> I've also found a RF72 drive. I first thought it was a RD54 but on closer inspection it turns out to be a RF72. What i've read is that it has a capacity of 1GB and needs an DSSI-controller Can any one tell me what DSSI is and if there exists a DSSI-controller for a uVAX II ? I Don't know if the beast is still in working order but I'm curious anyway. Sipke de Wal From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 7 15:47:25 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:37 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <200004071913.PAA09586@armigeron.com> Message-ID: > > > MS DOS: > > > They bought a clone of CP/M > > > > > I used CP/M every day for about six years. When I saw my first MS-DOS, I > > noted that the console command for a file list was 'DIR' and 'TYPE' and > > that's where the similarity ended. The file system architecture and ... much snippage... To see this easily you must look at CPM1.4 and MS(PC)dos 1.0-1.1. V2.0 of PCdos was a virgin rewrite. Why? cause 1.0 said down deep "Copyright Digital Research Corp", a remnant of the mechanical translation and later conversion to FAT filesystem. If you've worked with CP/M-80 and CP/M-86 you also notice that the -86 version was somewhat different from CP/M-80. That trend would continue. I have CCPM-386 kit that is still DRI and it's nothing like CPM-86 too. The utilities didn't have to be the same and it's the heritage of the core OS that was being discussed. FYI: copy has a syntax similar to the RT11 DCL COPY, RT11 also has commandline PIP with the CPM format dest=source. Guess who had COPY first? NOT MS. There was also utility (ca1980 when I found it) for CPM-80 called COPY that used the latter format FYI. The only innovation was marketing to the mass public. Allison From sipke at wxs.nl Fri Apr 7 15:48:11 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:37 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: <200004071913.PAA09586@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <01e001bfa0d2$99023be0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Microsoft also was involved in the (in)famous MSX standard and they developed MSX-DOS for it. It had the MS-DOS commands but was enough compatible to run the ZCP3 CP/M extension on it. Lots of programscreens looked weird because of the different way the console screen was handled but it worked. Even now MS-DOS still has the old FCBS. These are the File Control Block structure that CP/M uses to keep files open. Some old Turbo Pascal 3.0 software still uses it. MS-DOS 3.0 mostly did away with that and intruduced filehandles. But even in MS-DOS 4.0 the FCBS structures were still used in conjunction with the SHARE.EXE utility to allow harddisks larger than 32MB remember this one ? "SHARE.EXE should be installed for large media" Beware if you did not follow this advise with a +32MB drive. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner To: Sent: Friday, April 07, 2000 9:13 PM Subject: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond! > It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > > > MS DOS: > > > They bought a clone of CP/M > > > > > I used CP/M every day for about six years. When I saw my first MS-DOS, I > > noted that the console command for a file list was 'DIR' and 'TYPE' and > > that's where the similarity ended. The file system architecture and > > associated function set was totally different from CP/M's, and the console > > commands were different. What they had in common beyond 'DIR' was that they > > responded to keyboard commands just like ALL other OS'. CP/M used PIP > > rather than Copy. Are you now going to say they swiped that from OS-8? I > > just can't convince my self that there's much in common between MSDOS and > > CP/M. > > The similarities of MS-DOS to CP/M are mostly internal. In looking over > the list of OS functions between the two, the first 36 functions of each are > the same, with a few notable exceptions where the concept don't match > (MS-DOS for example does not have an IOBYTE). > > There are also two ways to call MS-DOS functions, one through the > documented interrupt call (INT 21h), the other a call to location 0005h > (that is, for a COM program consisting of a single segment, calling location > 0005h in the current segment has the same effect of calling INT 21h---for an > EXE program you may not be able to do it since the PSP (the segment the call > lives in) is in a different segment than the rest of the program > typically)), which is how you call BDOS in CP/M. > > You can also terminate a program by calling location 0000h (again, in a > COM program). In CP/M this causes a warm reset (similar functionality). > > The register usage is different, but that's only to be expected because of > differences between the 8080 and 8086, but 8080 code could be mechanically > translated to 8086 since there was a one-to-one relationship between > registers. It wouldn't produce optimal code, but it would produce code that > would more or less work and these register mappings map pretty well between > the CP/M and MS-DOS calls. > > Tim Patterson, who wrote the initial version of MS-DOS while at Seattle > Products, may have had access to CP/M sources since Seattle Products sold > CP/M systems and they were working on an 8086 based computer in the late > 70s. Tim probably modeled his QDOS (Quick-n-Dirty Operating System) closely > after CP/M (some say he may have mechanically translated CP/M since > copyright statements to Digital Research have allegedly been found in MS-DOS > 1.x but I haven't seen any). Why not? It would have been a quick and easy > way to get an OS for the 8086 system up and running. > > Microsoft's coming along and obtaining QDOS for $50,000 isn't that > straightforward but that's a story for another time. > > > > MS Visual BASIC: > > > Now this one has bothered me for several years, did they buy the underlying > > > technology or copy something that already existed. I've a strange feeling > > > that this one was actual innovation! > > Apple was working on a version of BASIC for the Macintosh that would > resemble VB today in the late 80s/early 90s. Microsoft got wind of it and > threatened to cut their license to Microsoft BASIC for the APPLE II (still > amoney maker at the time) if Apple actually released the product. Apple > towed the line and what do you know---Microsoft produces this very > innovative product called Visual Basic shortly thereafter, but for Windows. > > To my knowledge, the Apple ``Visual Basic'' never saw the light of day. > > -spc (All on topic, stuff happened more than 10 years ago) > From doug at blinkenlights.com Fri Apr 7 16:16:20 2000 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:37 2005 Subject: NewSubjectSuns In-Reply-To: <38ED2A86.7DCEE4CC@rain.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, Marvin wrote: > Oh oh, I can see the discussion that Doug and I had a year or so ago > starting up again :). For the new people and those with faulty memory, I > posted a number of ebay auctions that I thought the group might be > interested in and we ended up with a fairly friendly flame war for a while. > That was the reason Doug started the ccauction listserver. Is it still > going? I haven't posted or gotten any email from it in quite a while. Heh, I just re-subscribed to this list earlier this week, and I'm glad to see it's the same old mix of eBay discussions and Microsoft bashing :-) Sorry, the ccauction list is dead. I moved nut.net to a new server and forgot to move over the couple of mailing lists I had on the old server before the disk died it's last death. Besides, the flame war and ccauction list wasn't about offering stuff for sale on this list (which is a perfectly good thing IMO). Cheers, Doug From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Apr 7 16:33:55 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:37 2005 Subject: DSSI Question In-Reply-To: <01d401bfa0d0$3e6659c0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000407143127.02b173e0@208.226.86.10> KFSQA controller (M7769). You will also need a funky power connector (5 pin vs 4 pin) and a DSSI terminator. Probably more than you want to go through for testing a single drive. --Chuck At 10:28 PM 4/7/00 +0200, you wrote: >I've also found a RF72 drive. I first thought it was a RD54 but on closer >inspection >it turns out to be a RF72. What i've read is that it has a capacity of 1GB >and needs an >DSSI-controller > >Can any one tell me what DSSI is and if there exists a DSSI-controller for >a uVAX II ? > >I Don't know if the beast is still in working order but I'm curious anyway. > >Sipke de Wal From spc at armigeron.com Fri Apr 7 16:44:03 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:37 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <01e001bfa0d2$99023be0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> from "Sipke de Wal" at Apr 07, 2000 10:48:11 PM Message-ID: <200004072144.RAA13174@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Sipke de Wal once stated: > > Even now MS-DOS still has the old FCBS. These are the File Control Block > structure that > CP/M uses to keep files open. Some old Turbo Pascal 3.0 software still uses > it. > MS-DOS 3.0 mostly did away with that and intruduced filehandles. > But even in MS-DOS 4.0 the FCBS structures were still used in conjunction > with the SHARE.EXE utility to allow harddisks larger than 32MB File handles were introduced with MS-DOS 2.0. MS-DOS 2.0 used the underlying FCBs to handle the new file handle code, whereas with 3.0 it was finally reversed (the FCB code used the underlying file handle code). MS-DOS could handle larger partitions than 32MB. The limitation were the number of clusters MS-DOS could handle---65530 (not quite 65536 as a few values were used for flags and I don't recall the exact number). Increase the cluster size (which MS-DOS was flexible enough to handle) and you could use larger harddrives. But for large number of small files a lot of the disk space would be wasted and who's to say if third party utilities could deal with a non-standard cluster size? -spc (Gah! I still remember this stuff!) From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 7 16:53:21 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:37 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <01e001bfa0d2$99023be0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: > MS-DOS 3.0 mostly did away with that [FCBs] and intruduced filehandles. MS-DOS/PC-DOS 2.00 introduced filehandles, and subdirectories. What was unique about 3.00? Only thing that I can remember special about 3.00 was that it was the first one where you could include a path as part of the command to execute a program ("\DOS\FORMAT C:" 3.10 included the undocumented "network redirector", that was also needed for CD-ROMs, since MSCDEX looked like a network to DOS. 3.20 included full support (not OEM add-on) for 720K 3.5" 3.30 supported 1.4M 3.31 supported drives larger than 32M -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri Apr 7 17:30:22 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:37 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <200004071913.PAA09586@armigeron.com>; from spc@armigeron.com on Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 03:13:47PM -0400 References: <00c101bfa002$c120e340$0400c0a8@winbook> <200004071913.PAA09586@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <20000407183022.A29232@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 03:13:47PM -0400, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > Apple was working on a version of BASIC for the Macintosh that would > resemble VB today in the late 80s/early 90s. Microsoft got wind of it and > threatened to cut their license to Microsoft BASIC for the APPLE II (still > amoney maker at the time) if Apple actually released the product. Apple > towed the line and what do you know---Microsoft produces this very > innovative product called Visual Basic shortly thereafter, but for Windows. > > To my knowledge, the Apple ``Visual Basic'' never saw the light of day. I heard the same story when I did an internship at Apple in summer '89. The way I heard it, the Mac BASIC actually got as far as field test before Billy strong-armed Apple into suppressing it and leaving the BASIC market to M$. John Wilson D Bit From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Apr 7 17:30:46 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:37 2005 Subject: DSSI Question In-Reply-To: <01d401bfa0d0$3e6659c0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> (sipke@wxs.nl) References: <01d401bfa0d0$3e6659c0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <20000407223046.25353.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Can any one tell me what DSSI is and if there exists a DSSI-controller for > a uVAX II ? It's a DEC-proprietary drive interface. Reportedly electrically similar to SCSI, but definitely *NOT* compatible. The protocol is apparently almost the same as is used on CI to talk to HSC controllers. The Qbus host interface is the KFQSA, M7769. Not especially rare, but I haven't been tripping over them lately either. I have a spare that I could sell if you get desperate for one. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Apr 7 17:33:03 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:37 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <01e001bfa0d2$99023be0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> (sipke@wxs.nl) References: <200004071913.PAA09586@armigeron.com> <01e001bfa0d2$99023be0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <20000407223303.25369.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Sipke de Wal" wrote: > Even now MS-DOS still has the old FCBS. These are the File Control Block > structure that > CP/M uses to keep files open. Some old Turbo Pascal 3.0 software still uses > it. > MS-DOS 3.0 mostly did away with that and intruduced filehandles. File handles were introduced in MS-DOS 2.0. In 2.x there were reportedly still a few things you could only do with FCBs, but I don't happen to know what they were. From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Fri Apr 7 18:57:16 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:37 2005 Subject: Poll: Best *monochrome* laptop display Message-ID: <20000407235716.499.qmail@hotmail.com> What is, in your opinion, the best laptop with the best monochrome screen. If I was asked I'd definitely say the Macintosh Portable. I'd say this because this computer was one of the first to use active matrix screen technology. Do remember, in 1989 that was more or less new technology! I hate to do this, but I'm going to have to limit this to laptops with monochrome screens. The last time I did a poll on this list (Top 10: Best laptop keyboard) it went totally off. ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Apr 7 18:08:05 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:37 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <20000407183022.A29232@dbit.dbit.com> (message from John Wilson on Fri, 7 Apr 2000 18:30:22 -0400) References: <00c101bfa002$c120e340$0400c0a8@winbook> <200004071913.PAA09586@armigeron.com> <20000407183022.A29232@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000407230805.25554.qmail@brouhaha.com> John wrote: > I heard the same story when I did an internship at Apple in summer '89. > The way I heard it, the Mac BASIC actually got as far as field test before > Billy strong-armed Apple into suppressing it and leaving the BASIC market > to M$. There were definitely beta test copies of Macintosh BASIC floating around in 1985. I wish I still had one. There was even at least one book about it, possibly more. A search on Amazon turns up a lot of books with "Macintosh BASIC" in the title, though some of them were probably about Microsoft BASIC for the Macintosh, which was just a port of MBASIC. _Advanced Macintosh BASIC Programming_ _Introduction to Macintosh BASIC_ Scott Kamins _MacBASIC Programmer's Reference Manual_ Scott Kamins _Macintosh BASIC_ Lowell Carmony _Macintosh BAISC: A Beginner's Guide to Structured Programming_ Robert Stat _Macintosh BASIC: An Overview for People Who Know a Little BASIC_ Arthur Luehrmann _Macintosh BASIC for Business_ Gary G. Bitter, Roger L. Goodberlet _Macintosh BASIC Handbook_ Thomas Blackadar, Jonathan Kamin _Programming in Macintosh BASIC_ James Heid _Programming Macintosh BASIC_ John J. Dielsi, Elaine S. Grossman, John J. Tuccaiarone MacMillan _Using Macintosh BASIC_ Richard Norling (If anyone has an extra copy of any of these books, and they really are about Macintosh BASIC and not Microsoft BASIC for the Macintosh, I'd be interested in buying them.) As wes discussed in January on a.f.c, Donn Denman wrote Macintosh BASIC, and it was quite a nice environment. It was the only BASIC I'd ever seen that allowed you to write multi-threaded BASIC programs. Before that, Denman was known for Apple /// Business BASIC, also very nice but not nearly as amazing as Macintosh BASIC. Later he wrote MacroMaker, which rumor has it was put into System 7 partly to make up for taking Macintosh BASIC away from him. Though Microsoft ended up with the rights to Macintosh BASIC, they never did anything with it. Some people have claimed that it inspired some features of Visual BASIC, but I don't see much resemblance. From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 7 19:14:18 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:37 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: <200004071913.PAA09586@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <000d01bfa0ef$646a9e00$0400c0a8@winbook> please see embedded remarks below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner To: Sent: Friday, April 07, 2000 1:13 PM Subject: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond! > It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > > > MS DOS: > > > They bought a clone of CP/M > > > > > I used CP/M every day for about six years. When I saw my first MS-DOS, I > > noted that the console command for a file list was 'DIR' and 'TYPE' and > > that's where the similarity ended. The file system architecture and > > associated function set was totally different from CP/M's, and the console > > commands were different. What they had in common beyond 'DIR' was that they > > responded to keyboard commands just like ALL other OS'. CP/M used PIP > > rather than Copy. Are you now going to say they swiped that from OS-8? I > > just can't convince my self that there's much in common between MSDOS and > > CP/M. > > The similarities of MS-DOS to CP/M are mostly internal. In looking over > the list of OS functions between the two, the first 36 functions of each are > the same, with a few notable exceptions where the concept don't match > (MS-DOS for example does not have an IOBYTE). What of those things internal would you have had them leave out in order to be more different from CP/M, which was a VERY popular OS at the time, without removing its functionality. Since the features to which you refer are internal, I assume you have precice citations of common source code, right? They're certainly not obvious to me in my role as a fairly frequent user. > There are also two ways to call MS-DOS functions, one through the > documented interrupt call (INT 21h), the other a call to location 0005h > (that is, for a COM program consisting of a single segment, calling location > 0005h in the current segment has the same effect of calling INT 21h---for an > EXE program you may not be able to do it since the PSP (the segment the call > lives in) is in a different segment than the rest of the program > typically)), which is how you call BDOS in CP/M. > Since there is only one segment in CP/M, I guess you've got 'em there. Of course it really doesn't matter what the location is, does it? I guess any OS that load a register and then calls a specific location is a copy of CP/M, right? > > You can also terminate a program by calling location 0000h (again, in a > COM program). In CP/M this causes a warm reset (similar functionality). > It's like saying a FORD is a copy of a Dusenberg because they both use wheels. > > The register usage is different, but that's only to be expected because of > differences between the 8080 and 8086, but 8080 code could be mechanically > translated to 8086 since there was a one-to-one relationship between > registers. It wouldn't produce optimal code, but it would produce code that > would more or less work and these register mappings map pretty well between > the CP/M and MS-DOS calls. > The mapping of one register set into the other is not an accident. Ask Intel about that! I'm told that CP/M-86 is considerably more than a translation of CP/M-80. Now you suggest that the roots of MS-DOS are entirely in CP/M? They may have common roots, as they reflect the then conventional wisdom about how one should write a microcomputer operating system. It should be no surprise to anyone that there are some similarities. One doesn't want to ignore what works just because it wasn't invented in house. After all, Pascal is not a copy of Algol just because it uses mnemonic variable names. > > Tim Patterson, who wrote the initial version of MS-DOS while at Seattle > Products, may have had access to CP/M sources since Seattle Products sold > CP/M systems and they were working on an 8086 based computer in the late > 70s. Tim probably modeled his QDOS (Quick-n-Dirty Operating System) closely > after CP/M (some say he may have mechanically translated CP/M since > copyright statements to Digital Research have allegedly been found in MS-DOS > 1.x but I haven't seen any). Why not? It would have been a quick and easy > way to get an OS for the 8086 system up and running. > I've heard that, too. Does that mean that anyone who writes a program to do what he's seen another program do is making a copy? You're not even sure he actually saw and read the source code. How many programmers do you know who'd simply copy someone else's work in a case like this? Everybody wants to leave his own mark. > > Microsoft's coming along and obtaining QDOS for $50,000 isn't that > straightforward but that's a story for another time. > Buying something that shortens your burden is kind-of like buying an integrated circuit rather than making the thing yourself starting with a wheelbarrow of sand. The fact that Microsoft knew that IBM had gone to Kildall probably told them what they wanted was sort-f like CP/M. > > > > MS Visual BASIC: > > > Now this one has bothered me for several years, did they buy the underlying > > > technology or copy something that already existed. I've a strange feeling > > > that this one was actual innovation! > > Apple was working on a version of BASIC for the Macintosh that would > resemble VB today in the late 80s/early 90s. Microsoft got wind of it and > threatened to cut their license to Microsoft BASIC for the APPLE II (still > amoney maker at the time) if Apple actually released the product. Apple > towed the line and what do you know---Microsoft produces this very > innovative product called Visual Basic shortly thereafter, but for Windows. > ... and now you'd like me to believe that MS knew this and copied it? Frankly, if I'd been in Billy's place, knowing that Apple had considered it would have scared me off. > > To my knowledge, the Apple ``Visual Basic'' never saw the light of day.> > -spc (All on topic, stuff happened more than 10 years ago) > From sipke at wxs.nl Fri Apr 7 19:09:06 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:37 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: <200004071913.PAA09586@armigeron.com> <01e001bfa0d2$99023be0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> <20000407223303.25369.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <020201bfa0ee$a8728000$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Try running Wordperfects Drawperfect 2.0 even today unde DOS 7.0 without adequate FCBS (min: FCBS=2,0 in config.sys) and it won't work. FCBS are still among us, like the rudimentary footbones in a whale. Sipke ----- Original Message ----- From: Eric Smith To: Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 12:33 AM Subject: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond! > "Sipke de Wal" wrote: > > Even now MS-DOS still has the old FCBS. These are the File Control Block > > structure that > > CP/M uses to keep files open. Some old Turbo Pascal 3.0 software still uses > > it. > > MS-DOS 3.0 mostly did away with that and intruduced filehandles. > > File handles were introduced in MS-DOS 2.0. In 2.x there were reportedly > still a few things you could only do with FCBs, but I don't happen to know > what they were. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Apr 7 18:39:26 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:37 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <020201bfa0ee$a8728000$030101ac@boll.casema.net> (sipke@wxs.nl) References: <200004071913.PAA09586@armigeron.com> <01e001bfa0d2$99023be0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> <20000407223303.25369.qmail@brouhaha.com> <020201bfa0ee$a8728000$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <20000407233926.25679.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Sipke de Wal" wrote: > Even now MS-DOS still has the old FCBS. These are the File Control Block > structure that > CP/M uses to keep files open. Some old Turbo Pascal 3.0 software still uses > it. > MS-DOS 3.0 mostly did away with that and intruduced filehandles. I wrote: > File handles were introduced in MS-DOS 2.0. In 2.x there were reportedly > still a few things you could only do with FCBs, but I don't happen to know > what they were. "Sipke de Wal" wrote: > FCBS are still among us, like the rudimentary footbones in a whale. That only means that there are still some application developers who are using them, not that there is any missing capability in file handles that requires using FCBs. Developers will probably continue to write software using FCBs as long as there is a market for DOS and 16-bit-Windows applications. From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 7 17:37:14 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:37 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! Message-ID: <003601bfa0ea$59073820$7464c0d0@ajp166> >SCP and Micros~1 had had prior dealings, including sharing computer faire >booths, etc. In the course of those encounters, Patterson had seen the >F.A.T. structure used in the stand-alone BASIC that Micros~1 peddled to Fat was used in the Z80 basics from MS. Systems of not that had it were TANDY, NCR, NEC and a few others of the z80/cpm world. Side tidbit... 8086/88 part was available around 1978 (late) and systems using it were around in 1979. S100 and other systems were starting to build on it by late 1979 and DRI was late with CPM86. Hence the 8085/8088 boards for S100 and the other machine like rainbow that had z80/8088. There was at least on OS that ran on 8086/8 before DOS and that was a IRMX and I think ISIS-II as well. Allison From mac at Wireless.Com Fri Apr 7 19:47:40 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:37 2005 Subject: Poll: Best *monochrome* laptop display In-Reply-To: <20000407235716.499.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: It's -definitely- the Macintosh portable. I was the engineer at Apple who was responsible for measuring the quality of that display, and spent much of my time at Hosiden's factory outside Osaka. Fun days... -Mike On Fri, 7 Apr 2000, David Vohs wrote: > What is, in your opinion, the best laptop with the best monochrome screen. > If I was asked I'd definitely say the Macintosh Portable. > > I'd say this because this computer was one of the first to use active matrix > screen technology. Do remember, in 1989 that was more or less new > technology! > > I hate to do this, but I'm going to have to limit this to laptops with > monochrome screens. The last time I did a poll on this list (Top 10: Best > laptop keyboard) it went totally off. > ____________________________________________________________ > David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. > > Computer Collection: > > "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. > "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. > "Delorean": TI-99/4A. > "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. > "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. > "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. From cchd at kerberos.davies.net.au Fri Apr 7 20:13:53 2000 From: cchd at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:37 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <14574.9129.286124.322673@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Apr 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > On April 7, Huw Davies wrote: > > > I heard that DEC is making PCs and laptops these days that come bundled > > > with Windows. > > > > Unless I'm sadly mistaken, DEC no longer exists. > > So they got bought. I can still pick up the phone and order a VAX > or an Alpha...and get a damn good machine. As long as I can do > that, DEC exists. I doubt very much that Compaq can sell you a new VAX. We built what was deemed enough VAX chips and when the announcement came that VAX was end-of-life somone bought lots of them. I heard rumors that it was Intel (as VAXen run lots of their fab plants) but have no proof of this. I agree that DEC lives on inside Compaq (that's the bit of the company I work in) but there have been lots of changes. I'm not qualified to talk about them as I didn't work for Digital. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 7 20:12:24 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:37 2005 Subject: Poll: Best *monochrome* laptop display In-Reply-To: <20000407235716.499.qmail@hotmail.com> from "David Vohs" at Apr 07, 2000 11:57:16 PM Message-ID: <200004080112.SAA05863@shell1.aracnet.com> > > What is, in your opinion, the best laptop with the best monochrome screen. > If I was asked I'd definitely say the Macintosh Portable. > Well, since it's a Mac, I've got to lean towards agreeing with you. However, I consider the Toshiba T5200 to be the best. That Amber Gas Plasma was beautiful! Of course this opinion isn't as a user, someone that's actually used the system might disagree. Zane From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Apr 7 20:11:55 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:37 2005 Subject: Poll: Best *monochrome* laptop display In-Reply-To: <20000407235716.499.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: >What is, in your opinion, the best laptop with the best monochrome screen. >If I was asked I'd definitely say the Macintosh Portable. Monochrome screens are best ...... FORGOTTEN. ;) From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Apr 7 20:05:25 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:37 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <20000407183022.A29232@dbit.dbit.com> References: <200004071913.PAA09586@armigeron.com>; from spc@armigeron.com on Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 03:13:47PM -0400 <00c101bfa002$c120e340$0400c0a8@winbook> <200004071913.PAA09586@armigeron.com> Message-ID: >On Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 03:13:47PM -0400, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: >> Apple was working on a version of BASIC for the Macintosh that would >> resemble VB today in the late 80s/early 90s. Microsoft got wind of it and >> threatened to cut their license to Microsoft BASIC for the APPLE II (still >> amoney maker at the time) if Apple actually released the product. Apple >> towed the line and what do you know---Microsoft produces this very >> innovative product called Visual Basic shortly thereafter, but for Windows. >> >> To my knowledge, the Apple ``Visual Basic'' never saw the light of day. > >I heard the same story when I did an internship at Apple in summer '89. >The way I heard it, the Mac BASIC actually got as far as field test before >Billy strong-armed Apple into suppressing it and leaving the BASIC market >to M$. I more or less agree, except I still have MS Qbasic for the mac, and I believe that was the product MS threatened with, and still dropped once the Apple basic was dead. From spc at armigeron.com Fri Apr 7 20:12:28 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:37 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <000d01bfa0ef$646a9e00$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 07, 2000 06:14:18 PM Message-ID: <200004080112.VAA18208@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > The similarities of MS-DOS to CP/M are mostly internal. In looking over > > the list of OS functions between the two, the first 36 functions of each are > > the same, with a few notable exceptions where the concept don't match > > (MS-DOS for example does not have an IOBYTE). > > What of those things internal would you have had them leave out in order to > be more different from CP/M, which was a VERY popular OS at the time, > without removing its functionality. Since the features to which you refer > are internal, I assume you have precice citations of common source code, > right? They're certainly not obvious to me in my role as a fairly frequent > user. Well, the question on the table was the similarities between CP/M and MS-DOS which you didn't see outright because you only noticed the external side of each (user commands). All I did was show that the similarites were a bit deeper than just the user commands. And to make the comparrison all I had to do was lookup the operating system functions between the two. For example, the first twelve functions: # CP/M MS-DOS --------------------------------------------------------------- 1 Read console Character input with echo 2 Write console Character output 3 Read reader Auxilliary input 4 Write punch Auxilliary output 5 Write list Printer output 6 Direct console I/O Direct console I/O 7 Determine IOBYTE Unfiltered character input w/o echo 8 Set IOBYTE Character input w/o echo 9 Print buffer Display string 10 Read buffer Buffered keyboard input 11 Return console status Check input status 12 Return version Flush input buffer then input It's hard to say how I would design an OS for CP/M class (or early MS-DOS class) machines; hind sight and all that. And I'm not even saying it was wrong for Tim Patterson to model the OS calls after CP/M. After all, that's what he knew. Although I might be more inclinded to remove redundant calls (that differ only in device) but that's a step down the Unix direction. > > There are also two ways to call MS-DOS functions, one through the > > documented interrupt call (INT 21h), the other a call to location 0005h > > (that is, for a COM program consisting of a single segment, calling location > > 0005h in the current segment has the same effect of calling INT 21h---for an > > EXE program you may not be able to do it since the PSP (the segment the call > > lives in) is in a different segment than the rest of the program > > typically)), which is how you call BDOS in CP/M. > > > Since there is only one segment in CP/M, I guess you've got 'em there. Of > course it really doesn't matter what the location is, does it? I guess any > OS that load a register and then calls a specific location is a copy of > CP/M, right? Not outright. And it's not like MS-DOS used that as the ONLY way to call the operating system---the preferred method was still INT 21h. I suspect it was only put in to help migrate software from CP/M to MS-DOS. > > > > The register usage is different, but that's only to be expected because of > > differences between the 8080 and 8086, but 8080 code could be mechanically > > translated to 8086 since there was a one-to-one relationship between > > registers. It wouldn't produce optimal code, but it would produce code that > > would more or less work and these register mappings map pretty well between > > the CP/M and MS-DOS calls. > > The mapping of one register set into the other is not an accident. Ask > Intel about that! Why bother, I know the register mapping was intentional to help the migration of source code (mostly in assembly) from the 8080 to 8086. It was Motorola that took a large gamble at the time in making the 68000 incompatible with the 6800 line in all respects. > I'm told that CP/M-86 is considerably more than a > translation of CP/M-80. Now you suggest that the roots of MS-DOS are > entirely in CP/M? They may have common roots, as they reflect the then > conventional wisdom about how one should write a microcomputer operating > system. It should be no surprise to anyone that there are some > similarities. One doesn't want to ignore what works just because it wasn't > invented in house. I would say that the roots of MS-DOS 1.x are entirely in CP/M, while with 2.x the influence of other operating systems (notably Unix) start to show up. Then again, CP/M wasn't created wholecloth either, it had roots from RT-11 (I think that's the OS), which Gary Kildall had experience with. > After all, Pascal is not a copy of Algol just because it > uses mnemonic variable names. I'm not sure what you mean by that. Yes, Pascal and Algol are in the same family of computer languages but a Pascal source code does not an Algol program make. > > Tim Patterson, who wrote the initial version of MS-DOS while at Seattle > > Products, may have had access to CP/M sources since Seattle Products sold > > CP/M systems and they were working on an 8086 based computer in the late > > 70s. Tim probably modeled his QDOS (Quick-n-Dirty Operating System) closely > > after CP/M (some say he may have mechanically translated CP/M since > > copyright statements to Digital Research have allegedly been found in MS-DOS > > 1.x but I haven't seen any). Why not? It would have been a quick and easy > > way to get an OS for the 8086 system up and running. > > I've heard that, too. Does that mean that anyone who writes a program to do > what he's seen another program do is making a copy? Ask the lawyers or philosophers. > You're not even sure he > actually saw and read the source code. How many programmers do you know > who'd simply copy someone else's work in a case like this? Everybody wants > to leave his own mark. I don't know about then, but now I would suspect that most programmers would simply copy without bothering to leave their own mark (in case you might not have picked up on it, I don't hold programmers in very high reguard and I'm a programmer! Most programmers can't these days, as I'm sure Tony would say most electrical engineers today can't either). > > Microsoft's coming along and obtaining QDOS for $50,000 isn't that > > straightforward but that's a story for another time. > > > Buying something that shortens your burden is kind-of like buying an > integrated circuit rather than making the thing yourself starting with a > wheelbarrow of sand. The fact that Microsoft knew that IBM had gone to > Kildall probably told them what they wanted was sort-f like CP/M. Like I said, the story of MS-DOS isn't that straightforward. Bill Gates even told IBM to check with Digital Research for their OS. It was only when IBM came back saying they were having negotiation difficulties with DR did Bill Gates offer them an OS from Microsoft. Bill Gates knew of QDOS and worked with SCP to licence it from them, without telling SCP who their primary customer was. SCP was a bit peeved when it learned that Microsoft's customer was IBM. It wasn't until a few years later did Microsoft buy QDOS outright, after SCP had gone bankrupt. > > Apple was working on a version of BASIC for the Macintosh that would > > resemble VB today in the late 80s/early 90s. Microsoft got wind of it and > > threatened to cut their license to Microsoft BASIC for the APPLE II (still > > amoney maker at the time) if Apple actually released the product. Apple > > towed the line and what do you know---Microsoft produces this very > > innovative product called Visual Basic shortly thereafter, but for Windows. > > > ... and now you'd like me to believe that MS knew this and copied it? > Frankly, if I'd been in Billy's place, knowing that Apple had considered it > would have scared me off. This is Bill we're talking about here ... 8-) -spc (Amature computer historian ... ) From mbg at world.std.com Fri Apr 7 20:15:13 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:37 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! Message-ID: <200004080115.VAA02021@world.std.com> >DEC lives in my heart forever. I bleed DEC Vax blue and PDP11 >Magenta (sorry LCG guys... no China Red). Same here... I've been to the mill a few times since DEC sold it... I never go there without my original DEC badge... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From doug at blinkenlights.com Fri Apr 7 20:46:42 2000 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:37 2005 Subject: Poll: Best *monochrome* laptop display In-Reply-To: <20000407235716.499.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Apr 2000, David Vohs wrote: > What is, in your opinion, the best laptop with the best monochrome screen. > If I was asked I'd definitely say the Macintosh Portable. > > I'd say this because this computer was one of the first to use active matrix > screen technology. Do remember, in 1989 that was more or less new > technology! Best for what? The Mac had the first active matrix monochrome, but it wasn't backlit until a later model. In 1982, the GRiD Compass had an electroluminescent display that was just as bright and readable as a CRT. Later models had gas plasma displays that were readable from miles away :-) Apple was *very* late to market with portables, and the Mac Portable was a huge joke in 1989 due to its size. Well before 1989, there were already handheld MS-DOS machines like the Poqet. I guess my favorite monochrome laptops were those cool gas plasma Sun-compatible Unix laptops from Tadpole and others. Cheers, Doug From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 7 20:04:23 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:37 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! Message-ID: <006501bfa0fa$87f71b90$7464c0d0@ajp166> >> the same, with a few notable exceptions where the concept don't match >> (MS-DOS for example does not have an IOBYTE). > >What of those things internal would you have had them leave out in order to >be more different from CP/M, which was a VERY popular OS at the time, >without removing its functionality. Since the features to which you refer >are internal, I assume you have precice citations of common source code, >right? They're certainly not obvious to me in my role as a fairly frequent >user. The features he refers to are the calls to the BDOS to do things like File_OPEN, FILE_CLOSE, FILE DELETE..... and so on. >Since there is only one segment in CP/M, I guess you've got 'em there. Of >course it really doesn't matter what the location is, does it? I guess any >OS that load a register and then calls a specific location is a copy of >CP/M, right? Not really, CPM loaded to a specific segment but apps could use any and all to the then 8086 1mb limit. >> You can also terminate a program by calling location 0000h (again, in a >> COM program). In CP/M this causes a warm reset (similar functionality). >> >It's like saying a FORD is a copy of a Dusenberg because they both use >wheels. This was a feature unique to CPM and DOS as many others loc(0) was either reset (hard), ROM, unused or reserved. >The mapping of one register set into the other is not an accident. Ask >Intel about that! I'm told that CP/M-86 is considerably more than a >translation of CP/M-80. Now you suggest that the roots of MS-DOS are >entirely in CP/M? They may have common roots, as they reflect the then CPM-86 was not entirely 8080 code lofted, that would never ru without help. Also there was a loader change implemented, boot loads a file system aware loader that finds cpm.sys. This was not the 8080 way. As far as register usage, that is an artifact of PLM used to write the V1.3/1.4 and later versions of CPM80. With that convention established it was kept to keep applications that called the BDOS compatable. >I've heard that, too. Does that mean that anyone who writes a program to do >what he's seen another program do is making a copy? You're not even sure he >actually saw and read the source code. How many programmers do you know >who'd simply copy someone else's work in a case like this? Everybody wants >to leave his own mark. DOS 1.0 had COPYRIGHT Digital Research INC inside! There was a quiet copyright battle that forced DOS 2.0 (buggiest thing in the world!). This is not fiction and it was documented. >Buying something that shortens your burden is kind-of like buying an >integrated circuit rather than making the thing yourself starting with a >wheelbarrow of sand. The fact that Microsoft knew that IBM had gone to >Kildall probably told them what they wanted was sort-f like CP/M. They didn't care only that there would be apps for it to run like Visicalc! Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 7 20:06:49 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:37 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! Message-ID: <006601bfa0fa$88ff63d0$7464c0d0@ajp166> >Try running Wordperfects Drawperfect 2.0 even today unde DOS 7.0 without >adequate FCBS (min: FCBS=2,0 in config.sys) and it won't work. > >FCBS are still among us, like the rudimentary footbones in a whale. Big time. I run Champion/dos at work (financial package) under W95 and it don't run unless FCBS=80 (minimum!). I won't say more about Paradox/dos. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 7 20:18:13 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:37 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! Message-ID: <006701bfa0fa$89b0b270$7464c0d0@ajp166> >class) machines; hind sight and all that. And I'm not even saying it was >wrong for Tim Patterson to model the OS calls after CP/M. After all, that's >what he knew. Ahem, pattern after? it was wholesale copy of CPM1.3 lofted to 8086 after which the ALLOC code was replaced with FAT. (saved buffer space in ram) > I would say that the roots of MS-DOS 1.x are entirely in CP/M, while with >2.x the influence of other operating systems (notably Unix) start to show This is very true. Mostly because of the copying that was done. DOS 2.0 had to have similar functionality and yet be different plus CPM and DOS 1.0 lacked some needed features seen in VMS, UNIX, and others. >up. Then again, CP/M wasn't created wholecloth either, it had roots from >RT-11 (I think that's the OS), which Gary Kildall had experience with. True but the user appearance is only similar, the internal differences are significant. (Actually it was TOPS10 and OS/8) but they differ even more. >> I've heard that, too. Does that mean that anyone who writes a program to do >> what he's seen another program do is making a copy? > > Ask the lawyers or philosophers. > >> You're not even sure he >> actually saw and read the source code. How many programmers do you know >> who'd simply copy someone else's work in a case like this? Everybody wants >> to leave his own mark. By then most everyone had disassembled CPM and it was a trivial task as it was only 3.5k of 8080 code! Legit copies were even available to some people. Also there were clones of CPM (P2dos for example) and Turbodos. Allison From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 7 21:52:30 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:37 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: <200004080112.VAA18208@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <001701bfa105$7c20dc60$0400c0a8@winbook> please see embedded comments below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner To: Sent: Friday, April 07, 2000 7:12 PM Subject: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond! > It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > > > The similarities of MS-DOS to CP/M are mostly internal. In looking over > > > the list of OS functions between the two, the first 36 functions of each are > > > the same, with a few notable exceptions where the concept don't match > > > (MS-DOS for example does not have an IOBYTE). > > > > What of those things internal would you have had them leave out in order to > > be more different from CP/M, which was a VERY popular OS at the time, > > without removing its functionality. Since the features to which you refer > > are internal, I assume you have precice citations of common source code, > > right? They're certainly not obvious to me in my role as a fairly frequent > > user. > > Well, the question on the table was the similarities between CP/M and > MS-DOS which you didn't see outright because you only noticed the external > side of each (user commands). All I did was show that the similarites were > a bit deeper than just the user commands. > > And to make the comparrison all I had to do was lookup the operating > system functions between the two. For example, the first twelve functions: > > # CP/M MS-DOS > --------------------------------------------------------------- > 1 Read console Character input with echo > 2 Write console Character output > 3 Read reader Auxilliary input > 4 Write punch Auxilliary output > 5 Write list Printer output > 6 Direct console I/O Direct console I/O > 7 Determine IOBYTE Unfiltered character input w/o echo > 8 Set IOBYTE Character input w/o echo > 9 Print buffer Display string > 10 Read buffer Buffered keyboard input > 11 Return console status Check input status > 12 Return version Flush input buffer then input > > It's hard to say how I would design an OS for CP/M class (or early MS-DOS > class) machines; hind sight and all that. And I'm not even saying it was > wrong for Tim Patterson to model the OS calls after CP/M. After all, that's > what he knew. > I'd say that was what he knew was popular and well-understood. Back then it was more important that it be easy to learn and use than to be unique. If Tim Patterson patterned his call list after CP/M it was probably because he'd been asked to cook up something that would appeal to the typical CP/M user. Today, there's no looking at the code and bitching about the call sequence or any other such minutiae, but it's the "look and feel" that gets the judges excited enough to rule agains you if you've preseved it. If you were thumping Billy Gates and his friends by hinting that they simply bought something and filed off the rough edges and nibbled at the edges where it didn't fit, well, that's legitimate business. You might not see that as innovation (just to bring this discussion back to where we left the original thread) then keep in mind that those of us who use the software every day care a lot more about whether it works than whether it is totally new. It would be truly innovative to have software weenies get used to writing the code just as it was specified and leaving out every extra "hook" or whatever that wasn't in the spec, hence won't be accounted for in the doc's. It would be truly innovative to have it tested systematically with a wide range of inputs, both random and systematic and to great depth to make sure that there's no way to make it go down the toilet, especially not by inadvertent input at the "wrong" time or place. I'd say that at a minimum it ought to be tested with every possible input of a single character at times when input is not expected and every combination of 2^32 chacters at every point at which input is anticipated. The software should behave in an entirely predictable way and give messages that are totally self explanatory. Do I really think American programmers will ever take their work that seriously, . . . No, but they should at least think about it, don't you think? It could be done automatically, though, couldn't it? First we should hope that the pro's learn not to write memory leaks, eh? > > Although I might be more inclinded to remove redundant calls (that differ > only in device) but that's a step down the Unix direction. > That's a feature that came about when one fellow wrote one version and then, having become the boss, expected someone else to pick up where he left off, but not damage any of his now-sacred work. > > > > There are also two ways to call MS-DOS functions, one through the > > > documented interrupt call (INT 21h), the other a call to location 0005h > > > (that is, for a COM program consisting of a single segment, calling location > > > 0005h in the current segment has the same effect of calling INT 21h---for an > > > EXE program you may not be able to do it since the PSP (the segment the call > > > lives in) is in a different segment than the rest of the program > > > typically)), which is how you call BDOS in CP/M. > > > > > Since there is only one segment in CP/M, I guess you've got 'em there. Of > > course it really doesn't matter what the location is, does it? I guess any > > OS that load a register and then calls a specific location is a copy of > > CP/M, right? > > Not outright. And it's not like MS-DOS used that as the ONLY way to call > the operating system---the preferred method was still INT 21h. I suspect it > was only put in to help migrate software from CP/M to MS-DOS. > Now there's an interesting notion! A programmer actually did something to help out the struggling programmers who were going to have to live with his work. How thoughtful! You don't suppose those not-so-glaring similarities between the two OS' might actually exist because the authors thought it wise to make the environment familiar, or at least familiar-looking. > > > > > > The register usage is different, but that's only to be expected because of > > > differences between the 8080 and 8086, but 8080 code could be mechanically > > > translated to 8086 since there was a one-to-one relationship between > > > registers. It wouldn't produce optimal code, but it would produce code that > > > would more or less work and these register mappings map pretty well between > > > the CP/M and MS-DOS calls. > > > > The mapping of one register set into the other is not an accident. Ask > > Intel about that! > > Why bother, I know the register mapping was intentional to help the > migration of source code (mostly in assembly) from the 8080 to 8086. It was > Motorola that took a large gamble at the time in making the 68000 > incompatible with the 6800 line in all respects. > > > I'm told that CP/M-86 is considerably more than a > > translation of CP/M-80. Now you suggest that the roots of MS-DOS are > > entirely in CP/M? They may have common roots, as they reflect the then > > conventional wisdom about how one should write a microcomputer operating > > system. It should be no surprise to anyone that there are some > > similarities. One doesn't want to ignore what works just because it wasn't > > invented in house. > > I would say that the roots of MS-DOS 1.x are entirely in CP/M, while with > 2.x the influence of other operating systems (notably Unix) start to show > up. Then again, CP/M wasn't created wholecloth either, it had roots from > RT-11 (I think that's the OS), which Gary Kildall had experience with. > > > After all, Pascal is not a copy of Algol just because it > > uses mnemonic variable names. > > I'm not sure what you mean by that. Yes, Pascal and Algol are in the same > family of computer languages but a Pascal source code does not an Algol > program make. > What I meant was that the fact that my wagon has 4 wheels like yours doesn't make it a copy. > > > > Tim Patterson, who wrote the initial version of MS-DOS while at Seattle > > > Products, may have had access to CP/M sources since Seattle Products sold > > > CP/M systems and they were working on an 8086 based computer in the late > > > 70s. Tim probably modeled his QDOS (Quick-n-Dirty Operating System) closely > > > after CP/M (some say he may have mechanically translated CP/M since > > > copyright statements to Digital Research have allegedly been found in MS-DOS > > > 1.x but I haven't seen any). Why not? It would have been a quick and easy > > > way to get an OS for the 8086 system up and running. > > > > I've heard that, too. Does that mean that anyone who writes a program to do > > what he's seen another program do is making a copy? > > Ask the lawyers or philosophers. > > > You're not even sure he > > actually saw and read the source code. How many programmers do you know > > who'd simply copy someone else's work in a case like this? Everybody wants > > to leave his own mark. > > I don't know about then, but now I would suspect that most programmers > would simply copy without bothering to leave their own mark (in case you > might not have picked up on it, I don't hold programmers in very high > reguard and I'm a programmer! Most programmers can't these days, as I'm > sure Tony would say most electrical engineers today can't either). > > > > Microsoft's coming along and obtaining QDOS for $50,000 isn't that > > > straightforward but that's a story for another time. > > > > > Buying something that shortens your burden is kind-of like buying an > > integrated circuit rather than making the thing yourself starting with a > > wheelbarrow of sand. The fact that Microsoft knew that IBM had gone to > > Kildall probably told them what they wanted was sort-f like CP/M. > > Like I said, the story of MS-DOS isn't that straightforward. Bill Gates > even told IBM to check with Digital Research for their OS. It was only when > IBM came back saying they were having negotiation difficulties with DR did > Bill Gates offer them an OS from Microsoft. > > Bill Gates knew of QDOS and worked with SCP to licence it from them, > without telling SCP who their primary customer was. SCP was a bit peeved > when it learned that Microsoft's customer was IBM. > > It wasn't until a few years later did Microsoft buy QDOS outright, after > SCP had gone bankrupt. > Not nice, perhaps, but entirely legal. I won't claim that this behavior is innovative, however. > > > > Apple was working on a version of BASIC for the Macintosh that would > > > resemble VB today in the late 80s/early 90s. Microsoft got wind of it and > > > threatened to cut their license to Microsoft BASIC for the APPLE II (still > > > amoney maker at the time) if Apple actually released the product. Apple > > > towed the line and what do you know---Microsoft produces this very > > > innovative product called Visual Basic shortly thereafter, but for Windows. > > > > > ... and now you'd like me to believe that MS knew this and copied it? > > Frankly, if I'd been in Billy's place, knowing that Apple had considered it > > would have scared me off. > > This is Bill we're talking about here ... 8-) > > -spc (Amature computer historian ... ) > that's AMATEUR, you HISTORIAN > > WIth few exceptions, this tracks the PBS "revenge of the nerds" account of these events pretty closely. The thinly veiled truth must be in there somewhere. From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net Fri Apr 7 21:54:22 2000 From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (Sue & Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:37 2005 Subject: Netpliance at InternetWorld References: Message-ID: <001b01bfa105$bf08da00$0174fea9@francois> Just for that I wish I could have been there. I canned my order at CC (i hate to give people money and not have anything in return) I guess I'll just pick one up "cheap" when they have to liquidate the stock :) Francois ----- Original Message ----- From: Aaron Christopher Finney To: Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2000 6:26 PM Subject: OT: Netpliance at InternetWorld > Hi, > > I'm just back from InternetWorld, where I had a funny iOpener > experience... > > They had a unit embedded in the front face of a refrigerator > (touch-screen) at their display booth. At the end of the spokesmodel's > little presentation (and I emphasize the word model - what all those > beautiful women have to do with computers is beyond me), I couldn't resist > tossing out, "Yeah, that's cool, but can you hack it to run Linux?" I must > have been the 10,000th person to ask that day because she just snapped and > started yelling at me, "will you people leave us alone about this! Jesus!" > > But it was too late...some other guy yelled, "yeah, but hurry and buy one > before they pour epoxy in the back of it..." > > > Cheers, > > Aaron > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 7 22:09:00 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:37 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: <200004071913.PAA09586@armigeron.com>; from spc@armigeron.comon Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 03:13:47PM -0400<00c101bfa002$c120e340$0400c0a8@winbook><200004071913.PAA09586@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <002901bfa107$cbb457a0$0400c0a8@winbook> please see embedded remarks below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ford To: Sent: Friday, April 07, 2000 7:05 PM Subject: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond! > >On Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 03:13:47PM -0400, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > >> Apple was working on a version of BASIC for the Macintosh that would > >> resemble VB today in the late 80s/early 90s. Microsoft got wind of it and > >> threatened to cut their license to Microsoft BASIC for the APPLE II (still > >> amoney maker at the time) if Apple actually released the product. Apple > >> towed the line and what do you know---Microsoft produces this very > >> innovative product called Visual Basic shortly thereafter, but for Windows. > >> MS needed a quick and dirty way to glue their software's work products together. This provided and easy interface to other applications from MS as well as from others. It's become more specialized and less necessary over the years, though. > >> To my knowledge, the Apple ``Visual Basic'' never saw the light of day. > > > >I heard the same story when I did an internship at Apple in summer '89. > >The way I heard it, the Mac BASIC actually got as far as field test before > >Billy strong-armed Apple into suppressing it and leaving the BASIC market > >to M$. > > I more or less agree, except I still have MS Qbasic for the mac, and I > believe that was the product MS threatened with, and still dropped once the > Apple basic was dead. > If you want to, I'd guess you can find a predatory practice under every leaf. Do you really suppose that's what this was? Seeing the BASIC go by the wayside doesn't make me terribly sad, but I've not seen the Apple/Mac cut at the task. Was it any good? > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 7 22:16:26 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: <006501bfa0fa$87f71b90$7464c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <002d01bfa108$d53fc600$0400c0a8@winbook> I know what he means, Allison. Unlike those who earn their money writing code for the OS's we use, I see writing code as overhead most of the time. I've written a few hundred K-lines of mostly assembler, but am taking the position of a user, with which position I can easily identify, and as such don't see the similarities in the two OS' because I'm using an application which handles the interface to the OS for me and lets me focus on useful work. I'm not saying programming isn't useful work, but rather that most people not directly engaged in generating software consider it overhead or "not my job" and therefore uninteresting. The secretary using the word processor isn't interested in or aware of the how's of opening a file. He/she just wants it done. One who sees from that perspective sees the glaring differences between CP/M and MS-DOS, yet doesn't see the similarities to which reference has been made, whether they're real or not. Since MUCH fewer than 1% of the people who use MS products are engagedin activity which would make them aware of the differences and similarities between MS-DOS and CP/M if they knew both OS' I'd have to say the internals are really never going to be part of a legal argument. Most judges, after all, don't write their own programs. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: allisonp To: Sent: Friday, April 07, 2000 7:04 PM Subject: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond! > >> the same, with a few notable exceptions where the concept don't match > >> (MS-DOS for example does not have an IOBYTE). > > > >What of those things internal would you have had them leave out in order to > >be more different from CP/M, which was a VERY popular OS at the time, > >without removing its functionality. Since the features to which you refer > >are internal, I assume you have precice citations of common source code, > >right? They're certainly not obvious to me in my role as a fairly frequent > >user. > > > The features he refers to are the calls to the BDOS to do things like > File_OPEN, > FILE_CLOSE, FILE DELETE..... and so on. > > >Since there is only one segment in CP/M, I guess you've got 'em there. Of > >course it really doesn't matter what the location is, does it? I guess any > >OS that load a register and then calls a specific location is a copy of > >CP/M, right? > > > Not really, CPM loaded to a specific segment but apps could use any and all > to the then 8086 1mb limit. > > >> You can also terminate a program by calling location 0000h (again, in a > >> COM program). In CP/M this causes a warm reset (similar functionality). > >> > >It's like saying a FORD is a copy of a Dusenberg because they both use > >wheels. > > > This was a feature unique to CPM and DOS as many others loc(0) was > either reset (hard), ROM, unused or reserved. > > >The mapping of one register set into the other is not an accident. Ask > >Intel about that! I'm told that CP/M-86 is considerably more than a > >translation of CP/M-80. Now you suggest that the roots of MS-DOS are > >entirely in CP/M? They may have common roots, as they reflect the then > > > CPM-86 was not entirely 8080 code lofted, that would never ru without help. > Also there was a loader change implemented, boot loads a file system aware > loader that finds cpm.sys. This was not the 8080 way. > > As far as register usage, that is an artifact of PLM used to write the > V1.3/1.4 > and later versions of CPM80. With that convention established it was kept > to keep applications that called the BDOS compatable. > > >I've heard that, too. Does that mean that anyone who writes a program to > do > >what he's seen another program do is making a copy? You're not even sure > he > >actually saw and read the source code. How many programmers do you know > >who'd simply copy someone else's work in a case like this? Everybody wants > >to leave his own mark. > > > DOS 1.0 had COPYRIGHT Digital Research INC inside! There was a quiet > copyright battle that forced DOS 2.0 (buggiest thing in the world!). This > is not > fiction and it was documented. > > >Buying something that shortens your burden is kind-of like buying an > >integrated circuit rather than making the thing yourself starting with a > >wheelbarrow of sand. The fact that Microsoft knew that IBM had gone to > >Kildall probably told them what they wanted was sort-f like CP/M. > > > They didn't care only that there would be apps for it to run like Visicalc! > > Allison > From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Fri Apr 7 23:10:11 2000 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: Poll: Best *monochrome* laptop display In-Reply-To: <20000407235716.499.qmail@hotmail.com>; from netsurfer_x1@hotmail.com on Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 11:57:16PM +0000 References: <20000407235716.499.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <20000408001011.A14258@alcor.concordia.ca> On Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 11:57:16PM +0000, David Vohs (netsurfer_x1@hotmail.com) wrote: > What is, in your opinion, the best laptop with the best monochrome screen. > If I was asked I'd definitely say the Macintosh Portable. > > I'd say this because this computer was one of the first to use active matrix > screen technology. Do remember, in 1989 that was more or less new > technology! Feh, LCDs are toys! :-) My current favorite is the orange gas-plasma display on my Toshiba T5100/100. Which, by the way, I'm still looking for Toshiba's unix, T/PIX, for -- I couldn't even find someone that knew of it *at* Toshiba. :-/ ObClassics: Finally picked up a NeXTstation today, the search for which got me into collecting classics in the first place. (Well, the search for a cube, really. But this was too good to pass up.) -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From nerdware at laidbak.com Fri Apr 7 23:13:52 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: Poll: Best *monochrome* laptop display In-Reply-To: References: <20000407235716.499.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <200004080412.XAA00114@garcon.laidbak.com> Gets my vote. Mine is an original model w/o the backlight. Have one 1" line of pixels bad after all this time, but once your visual filters are tuned to it, it's not noticable. Good job! > It's -definitely- the Macintosh portable. I was the engineer at Apple who > was responsible for measuring the quality of that display, and spent much > of my time at Hosiden's factory outside Osaka. Fun days... > > -Mike > > > On Fri, 7 Apr 2000, David Vohs wrote: > > > What is, in your opinion, the best laptop with the best monochrome > > screen. If I was asked I'd definitely say the Macintosh Portable. > > > > I'd say this because this computer was one of the first to use active > > matrix screen technology. Do remember, in 1989 that was more or less new > > technology! > > > > I hate to do this, but I'm going to have to limit this to laptops with > > monochrome screens. The last time I did a poll on this list (Top 10: > > Best laptop keyboard) it went totally off. > > ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, > > Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. > > > > Computer Collection: > > > > "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. > > "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. > > "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": > > Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From nerdware at laidbak.com Fri Apr 7 23:17:01 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: Poll: Best *monochrome* laptop display In-Reply-To: References: <20000407235716.499.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <200004080415.XAA00167@garcon.laidbak.com> That really should be split into two different categories, since plasma and lcd's are two completely different animals. I've got a Compaq Portable III with a nifty plasma display, along with a GRiD 386 tank that has one as well. But, for LCD's, the Mac would be hard to beat. The screen on my GRiD 2270 is nice, but not as crisp as the Mac's. > On Fri, 7 Apr 2000, David Vohs wrote: > > > What is, in your opinion, the best laptop with the best monochrome > > screen. If I was asked I'd definitely say the Macintosh Portable. > > > > I'd say this because this computer was one of the first to use active > > matrix screen technology. Do remember, in 1989 that was more or less new > > technology! > > Best for what? The Mac had the first active matrix monochrome, but it > wasn't backlit until a later model. In 1982, the GRiD Compass had an > electroluminescent display that was just as bright and readable as a CRT. > Later models had gas plasma displays that were readable from miles away > :-) > > Apple was *very* late to market with portables, and the Mac Portable was a > huge joke in 1989 due to its size. Well before 1989, there were already > handheld MS-DOS machines like the Poqet. > > I guess my favorite monochrome laptops were those cool gas plasma > Sun-compatible Unix laptops from Tadpole and others. > > Cheers, > Doug Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From nerdware at laidbak.com Fri Apr 7 23:49:40 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <200004080112.VAA18208@armigeron.com> References: <000d01bfa0ef$646a9e00$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 07, 2000 06:14:18 PM Message-ID: <200004080448.XAA00483@garcon.laidbak.com> Apparently, "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" saw fit to utter some of the following: > > > computer in the late 70s. Tim probably modeled his QDOS > > > (Quick-n-Dirty Operating System) closely after CP/M (some say he may > > > have mechanically translated CP/M since copyright statements to > > > Digital Research have allegedly been found in MS-DOS 1.x but I haven't > > > seen any). Why not? It would have been a quick and easy way to get > > > an OS for the 8086 system up and running. > > > > You're not even sure he > > actually saw and read the source code. How many programmers do you know > > who'd simply copy someone else's work in a case like this? Everybody > > wants to leave his own mark. Can you say Stacker? Quicktime for Windows? > > > > > > Buying something that shortens your burden is kind-of like buying an > > integrated circuit rather than making the thing yourself starting with a > > wheelbarrow of sand. The fact that Microsoft knew that IBM had gone to > > Kildall probably told them what they wanted was sort-f like CP/M. > > Like I said, the story of MS-DOS isn't that straightforward. Bill Gates > even told IBM to check with Digital Research for their OS. It was only > when IBM came back saying they were having negotiation difficulties with > DR did Bill Gates offer them an OS from Microsoft. And that was only because IBM was going to kill the whole deal if they couldn't get an OS to go with MS BASIC. Bill told them "Yeah, we'll have an OS for you" and then ran down the street to Tim's shop. > > Bill Gates knew of QDOS and worked with SCP to licence it from them, > without telling SCP who their primary customer was. SCP was a bit peeved > when it learned that Microsoft's customer was IBM. > > It wasn't until a few years later did Microsoft buy QDOS outright, after > SCP had gone bankrupt. > And IBM apparently found enough code lifted directly from CP/M to justify an $800,000 settlement with Kildall to keep him from suing them. > > > Apple was working on a version of BASIC for the Macintosh that would > > > resemble VB today in the late 80s/early 90s. Microsoft got wind of it > > > and threatened to cut their license to Microsoft BASIC for the APPLE > > > II (still amoney maker at the time) if Apple actually released the > > > product. Apple towed the line and what do you know---Microsoft > > > produces this very innovative product called Visual Basic shortly > > > thereafter, but for Windows. > > > > > ... and now you'd like me to believe that MS knew this and copied it? > > Frankly, if I'd been in Billy's place, knowing that Apple had considered > > it would have scared me off. > > This is Bill we're talking about here ... 8-) Bill knew about the Lisa and the Mac OS and the work at PARC, and that didn't scare him off, did it? No, he just cobbled a crude windowed-DOS patch together and called it Windows. Used all the money and leverage he'd gotten by catching a ride with IBM to make people try to buy it. Wile we're on the subject of Bill's "lucky" meeting with IBM, let's not forget that Bill's mom and one of IBM's higher-ups served on the same United Way Board of Directors.........think that might have something to do with it? And Paul Allen used a DEC when he "wrote" MITS BASIC. Also, according to one of the original Amiga coders, when Micros~1 (I love that!) was writing Virus95, they tried to buy the neat little Workbench feature that lets you control the mouse pointer with the cursor keys in an emergency, but since C='s stuff was all tied up in bankruptcy court in the Bahamas, they couldn't touch it. As much as my Micros~1 mouse locks up on my machine at work (running a Micros~1 OS, no less), I could sure use that feature......along with the neat little pointer editor that allowed me to draw my own mouse pointer instead of having to accept the little arrow.... Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Apr 8 00:06:12 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <000d01bfa0ef$646a9e00$0400c0a8@winbook> References: <200004071913.PAA09586@armigeron.com> Message-ID: >I've heard that, too. Does that mean that anyone who writes a program to do >what he's seen another program do is making a copy? You're not even sure he >actually saw and read the source code. How many programmers do you know >who'd simply copy someone else's work in a case like this? Everybody wants >to leave his own mark. Well personally I love hacking other peoples code, and that was my prefered style at the time, find some code doing something similiar and "enhance" it. Since then I learned all those good structured design type things, but I find it funny that as I learn and adopt more of the object programming model I return to my hacking roots. Get the job done with a rev 0.1 hack, make your mark around rev 4.0 when you do the rewrite to clean up the mess its grown to. >> Apple was working on a version of BASIC for the Macintosh that would >> resemble VB today in the late 80s/early 90s. Microsoft got wind of it and >> threatened to cut their license to Microsoft BASIC for the APPLE II (still >> amoney maker at the time) if Apple actually released the product. Apple >> towed the line and what do you know---Microsoft produces this very >> innovative product called Visual Basic shortly thereafter, but for >Windows. >> >... and now you'd like me to believe that MS knew this and copied it? >Frankly, if I'd been in Billy's place, knowing that Apple had considered it >would have scared me off. Not copy it, they killed the project, then dropped support anyway. From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sat Apr 8 00:24:16 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: ; from cisin@xenosoft.com on Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 02:53:21PM -0700 References: <01e001bfa0d2$99023be0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <20000408012416.A30144@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 02:53:21PM -0700, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > What was unique about 3.00? Only thing that I can remember special about > 3.00 was that it was the first one where you could include a path as part > of the command to execute a program ("\DOS\FORMAT C:" Isn't 3.0 also where they moved the loader into the OS itself, instead of being part of COMMAND.COM? Could be wrong. Also they added the executable filename to the end of the environment, since it was no longer guaranteed to be in the PATH. At what point did they add the ability to have multiple DOS partitions? John Wilson D Bit From doug at blinkenlights.com Sat Apr 8 00:49:43 2000 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: Poll: Best *monochrome* laptop display In-Reply-To: <20000408001011.A14258@alcor.concordia.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Rich Lafferty wrote: > Feh, LCDs are toys! :-) My current favorite is the orange gas-plasma > display on my Toshiba T5100/100. Which, by the way, I'm still looking > for Toshiba's unix, T/PIX, for -- I couldn't even find someone that > knew of it *at* Toshiba. :-/ Yeah, baby! I remember somebody demo'ing the T5100 running Unix in the late 1980's (prob 1989). I think a NeXT cube was being demo'd at the same meeting. I don't think I've ever had a worse case of hardware envy than I had that day :-) I think Interactive Systems ported Unix to the T5100, so if you can find an old 386 version, it probably has the drivers. Let me know if you get it working. I think I have both a T5100 and a box of Interactive Unix in storage someplace. > ObClassics: Finally picked up a NeXTstation today, the search for > which got me into collecting classics in the first place. (Well, the > search for a cube, really. But this was too good to pass up.) Hope you got the monitor cable. Damn hard to find by itself. -- Doug From doug at blinkenlights.com Sat Apr 8 00:57:10 2000 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: Poll: Best *monochrome* laptop display In-Reply-To: <200004080415.XAA00167@garcon.laidbak.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Apr 2000, Paul Braun wrote: > That really should be split into two different categories, since > plasma and lcd's are two completely different animals. I've got a > Compaq Portable III with a nifty plasma display, along with a GRiD > 386 tank that has one as well. Hey, what's with the new rules? He never specified that it had to be LCD technology. > But, for LCD's, the Mac would be hard to beat. The screen on my > GRiD 2270 is nice, but not as crisp as the Mac's. The 2270 has a standard nasty passive matrix monochrome display. Ever try an HP OmniBook 300? It has a passive monochrome display, but it's reflective and works great outdoors. How about the worst display on a portable? Had to be the Casio/Tandy/Grid Zoomer -- high glare, non-backlit and nearly opaque because of the touch screen. But what a fun toy. -- Doug From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 7 21:45:03 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! Message-ID: <000401bfa11c$a708a0e0$7164c0d0@ajp166> >Since MUCH fewer than 1% of the people who use MS products are engagedin >activity which would make them aware of the differences and similarities >between MS-DOS and CP/M if they knew both OS' I'd have to say the internals >are really never going to be part of a legal argument. Most judges, after >all, don't write their own programs. Be aware that the judge did decide and MS was in trouble. In reality similar and copied were the issues then. User interfaces are less protected. I live in both worlds, both user and systems designer/programmer. So I have an appreciation of both sets of issues. To me MS makes both sides of the coin harder as it's hard to program defensively from an OS that eats itself while calling itself protected. Though I am finding NT4 a vast improvement. Allison From dastar at siconic.com Sat Apr 8 02:05:32 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: My NEC APC is working Message-ID: <200004080711.AAA19368@siconic.com> Y'all may recall I wrote a couple weeks back about needing an NEC APC to try to read these disks that a geophysicist sent me so Guatemala can find all their precious resources. Fast forward a few weeks: I spent an hour or so digging around my warehouse and managed to locate and then extricate the NEC APC I had. Tonight I finally got around to checking it out again (I got it over 4 years ago and when I played with it then I couldn't get anything to come up on it). Well tonight I was fiddling with it and realized the brightness knob was turned all the way down. It turns out this thing works after all! The system came with 2 disks in the drives when I received it. One in the A drive is labeled "SYS" and the other in the B drive something else, it's not important, since the system is trying to boot from A. When I first turn it on, the upper lefthand corner of the screen shows "[LOD]" and the disk light comes on. Actually, there are two red LEDs per drive. The bottom light is always on, and it seems when it's reading a disk the top one turns on. It tries the A drive and then displays "[LOD C]" and momentarily accesses the B drive. Then I get "[LER]". So I need to know what this all means. I'm assuming that either the disks are bad or the drive heads are dirty. Of course there may be something worse going on but I'm an optimist (mostly). So I could use the following if you've got it: a) information from the system manuals that explain the boot process. I've got the manuals but there is no way in hell I'd be able to find them without a full-scale re-organization of my warehouse, which I hope to do in my lifetime but definitely don't have the time for right now. b) a known good copy of a system disk. This is an NEC APC model APC-H02. The floppies are 8". Any help will be greatly appreciated and if we are successful with getting the data off you will be given credit for your assistance!! Remember, goats and village women! As ever, please reply directly to me as I am not subscribed to ClassicCmp. sellam@vintage.org Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Apr 8 02:42:26 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: Poll: Best *monochrome* laptop display In-Reply-To: References: <200004080415.XAA00167@garcon.laidbak.com> Message-ID: >How about the worst display on a portable? Had to be the Casio/Tandy/Grid >Zoomer -- high glare, non-backlit and nearly opaque because of the touch >screen. But what a fun toy. > >-- Doug The Kaypro 2000 was pretty bad. It was squished (IIRC, about a third the hieght it should have been), and you had to be sitting in just the right spot to see it. I played Games and messed with CAD on it. I remember playing the first Battletech game ("the Cresent Hawks Inception", a sort of RPG) on it, I had to play on a friends systems for an hour or so at one point becuase I literally couldn't see one of the destinations when playing on the Kaypro! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Apr 8 02:18:23 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <002901bfa107$cbb457a0$0400c0a8@winbook> References: <200004071913.PAA09586@armigeron.com>; from spc@armigeron.comon Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 03:13:47PM -0400<00c101bfa002$c120e340$0400c0a8@winbook><200004071913.PAA09586@armige ron.com> Message-ID: >> >I heard the same story when I did an internship at Apple in summer '89. >> >The way I heard it, the Mac BASIC actually got as far as field test >before >> >Billy strong-armed Apple into suppressing it and leaving the BASIC market >> >to M$. >> >> I more or less agree, except I still have MS Qbasic for the mac, and I >> believe that was the product MS threatened with, and still dropped once >the >> Apple basic was dead. >> >If you want to, I'd guess you can find a predatory practice under every >leaf. Do you really suppose that's what this was? Seeing the BASIC go by >the wayside doesn't make me terribly sad, but I've not seen the Apple/Mac >cut at the task. Was it any good? I was speaking in reference only to MicroSoft QuickBasic, and quite a few people were more than miffed when MS pulled the plug on it since the applications they wrote depended on a runtime module from MS. And yes I think MS did it to poke Apple in the eye. From spc at armigeron.com Sat Apr 8 03:45:20 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <001701bfa105$7c20dc60$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 07, 2000 08:52:30 PM Message-ID: <200004080845.EAA28978@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > If you were thumping Billy Gates and his friends by hinting that they simply > bought something and filed off the rough edges and nibbled at the edges > where it didn't fit, well, that's legitimate business. You might not see > that as innovation (just to bring this discussion back to where we left the > original thread) then keep in mind that those of us who use the software > every day care a lot more about whether it works than whether it is totally > new. It would be truly innovative to have software weenies get used to > writing the code just as it was specified and leaving out every extra "hook" > or whatever that wasn't in the spec, hence won't be accounted for in the > doc's. Just for the record, and speaking as a programmer, I would find it truely innovative if software was actually DESIGNED for a change, instead of hacked on. I count myself lucky that I don't have to work with other programmers or their code since I hear way too many horror stories from my buddies that actually have to (and it's almost always worse when it involves anything dealing with Mircosoft [1]). The last time I had to work with someone else's code it was so horribly written [2] and obviously not designed that I scrapped it and rewrote it. I even talked to the original programmer and his attitude was basically ``Hey, the customer paid for it and it works. I'm not working on it again. Screw you dude!'' It's rare when I want someone else shot on sight, but he was one of them. Spec? Spec? That's a good one. > It would be truly innovative to have it tested systematically with a wide > range of inputs, both random and systematic and to great depth to make sure > that there's no way to make it go down the toilet, especially not by > inadvertent input at the "wrong" time or place. I'd say that at a minimum > it ought to be tested with every possible input of a single character at > times when input is not expected and every combination of 2^32 chacters at > every point at which input is anticipated. The software should behave in an > entirely predictable way and give messages that are totally self > explanatory. Do I really think American programmers will ever take their > work that seriously, . . . No, but they should at least think about it, > don't you think? It could be done automatically, though, couldn't it? > First we should hope that the pro's learn not to write memory leaks, eh? First off, European programmers are no better. At least when we write unmaintainable piles of crap, it's because we don't know any better. Europeans they seem to just love writing complex code just for complexity's sake. A friend of mine (B.S in Comp Sci from an American university) had to explain to three German programmers (each with a Ph.D. from a European university) why their code was not re-entrant, and show an easier way to do what they wanted to do in the first place. They refused to make the change (which only impacted five places in the code) since their code was ``tested'' and obviously worked. Uh, no. It wasn't re-entrant. In that particular case, that was a bug waiting to happen. > > Although I might be more inclinded to remove redundant calls (that differ > > only in device) but that's a step down the Unix direction. > > > That's a feature that came about when one fellow wrote one version and then, > having become the boss, expected someone else to pick up where he left off, > but not damage any of his now-sacred work. Well, it might also be a conscience design decision now that I think about it. On a register starved 8080 it might not have been possible to specify a device number, or might have increased the code size to load an extra register. It's hard to say. But what you say is the current Microsoft way from stories I've heard. > > Not outright. And it's not like MS-DOS used that as the ONLY way to call > > the operating system---the preferred method was still INT 21h. I suspect it > > was only put in to help migrate software from CP/M to MS-DOS. > > Now there's an interesting notion! A programmer actually did something to > help out the struggling programmers who were going to have to live with his > work. How thoughtful! You don't suppose those not-so-glaring similarities > between the two OS' might actually exist because the authors thought it wise > to make the environment familiar, or at least familiar-looking. That's entirely possible. This whole conversation started because you stated you didn't see the similarities between CP/M and MS-DOS. I came along and said that the similarities were lower down, below the user stuff. I never said that was good or bad. Other people seem to think Microsoft (or Tim Patterson) was wrong doing what they did. I haven't. > > -spc (Amature computer historian ... ) > > > that's AMATEUR, you HISTORIAN Thank you. > WIth few exceptions, this tracks the PBS "revenge of the nerds" account of > these events pretty closely. The thinly veiled truth must be in there > somewhere. Well, I never saw the PBS ``Revenge of the Nerds'' but I have read several books (and countless magazine articles and reference materials) but I'm interested to hear what you think the truth is. -spc (AmaTEUR computer history then ... ) [1] For instance, a friend of mine is writing a program to automatically restart programs if they stop running. Under Unix, this is already provided by the init program yet it's something that is lacking under Windows NT (which can run as a server, mind you). So he's basically writing a clone of init for NT. The problem is that he not only has to restart programs, but NT services, and that requires an entirely different set of API calls than starting and stopping programs (not to mention that you can get a signal when a program dies, yet you have to poll to see if a service is dead). The project he's on is a complete disaster as the manager went for a Microsoft solution using slews of programs communicating via COM, DCOM, OLE and other alphabet soup of Microsoft technology. A year later and it still doesn't work and my friend has basically told the manager it has to be scrapped and done from scratch, preferably using something other than Microsoft (although my friend might have a slight bias). [2] In C with random indentation, C++ style comments (which his C compiler accepted) and race conditions that would cause it to fail under certain circumstances. From dpeschel at eskimo.com Sat Apr 8 03:51:02 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: Poll: Best *monochrome* laptop display In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Apr 08, 2000 12:42:26 AM Message-ID: <200004080851.BAA13531@eskimo.com> Zane Healy wrote: > >How about the worst display on a portable? Had to be the Casio/Tandy/Grid > >Zoomer -- high glare, non-backlit and nearly opaque because of the touch > >screen. But what a fun toy. > > > >-- Doug > > The Kaypro 2000 was pretty bad. It was squished (IIRC, about a third the > hieght it should have been), and you had to be sitting in just the right Is the 2000 a "luggable" like the other Kaypros? If it is, and if we're counting "luggables", then wouldn't the Osbore's 5" display be worse? -- Derek From doug at blinkenlights.com Sat Apr 8 05:06:12 2000 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: Poll: Best *monochrome* laptop display In-Reply-To: <200004080851.BAA13531@eskimo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Derek Peschel wrote: > Is the 2000 a "luggable" like the other Kaypros? If it is, and if we're > counting "luggables", then wouldn't the Osbore's 5" display be worse? No, the 2000 was an MS-DOS laptop circa 1985 (way back when "2000" meant "the future"). It had a cool looking aluminum case (sort of the Chevy Vega of portables). The Osborne's 5" display was *much* more readable than the early large LCD's. But if you want a cool luggable, go back 10 years before the Osborne: the 1972 HP 9830 with dot-matrix LED display. BTW, Derek, did you ever get your GRiDPad to work? -- Doug From sipke at wxs.nl Sat Apr 8 05:16:52 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: Innovation ?(was: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) References: <006501bfa0fa$87f71b90$7464c0d0@ajp166> <002d01bfa108$d53fc600$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <001901bfa143$90a55ba0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> This thread was about innovation. And it is a thread about innovation on the ClassicComp list were most of the audience is more or less knowlegable about such matters. I'd say then innovation then should also regard the innards of the the software we discuss not only the userinterface. The problem is deeper still. Most people in this industy are rather addicted to something that's called BACKWARDS COMPATIBILTY. This simply because it makes our lives a little easier when an new piece of hardware hits the market, to be damned for all eternity because we have to live with the concequences of our addictions. I think the fact that MS-DOS 1.0 & CP/M are pretty much the same was also a boon for corporations like Borland and Microprose (Wordstar) because they could easely adapt their software to the MS-DOS platform. Innovation is somtimes nothing more than BIG-BLUE entering the market with a new hardware product with already senile software. Had they done a real good think, they could have come up with something from the Palo Alto Rechearch Corp. (XEROX) that has been giving a lot of innovations away for free. ;-) A lot of real innovation is driven by new cheap hardware devices and other gizmos that have to be integrated into the system software Usually this starts out with a kludge like an addon driver. Only later on will it be fully incoroprated in the system. (IE: look at the mouse) Now what constitutes true innovative operatingsystem software ? BEOS ? EPOC 2.0 ? PALM OS ? MS-DOS, CP/M, UNIX, LINUX/freeBSD, VMS they are all at least one or two decades old. Never the less it's fun to play with. :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Erlacher To: Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 5:16 AM Subject: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond! > I know what he means, Allison. Unlike those who earn their money writing > code for the OS's we use, I see writing code as overhead most of the time. > I've written a few hundred K-lines of mostly assembler, but am taking the > position of a user, with which position I can easily identify, and as such > don't see the similarities in the two OS' because I'm using an application > which handles the interface to the OS for me and lets me focus on useful > work. > > I'm not saying programming isn't useful work, but rather that most people > not directly engaged in generating software consider it overhead or "not my > job" and therefore uninteresting. The secretary using the word processor > isn't interested in or aware of the how's of opening a file. He/she just > wants it done. One who sees from that perspective sees the glaring > differences between CP/M and MS-DOS, yet doesn't see the similarities to > which reference has been made, whether they're real or not. > > Since MUCH fewer than 1% of the people who use MS products are engagedin > activity which would make them aware of the differences and similarities > between MS-DOS and CP/M if they knew both OS' I'd have to say the internals > are really never going to be part of a legal argument. Most judges, after > all, don't write their own programs. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: allisonp > To: > Sent: Friday, April 07, 2000 7:04 PM > Subject: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond! > > > > >> the same, with a few notable exceptions where the concept don't match > > >> (MS-DOS for example does not have an IOBYTE). > > > > > >What of those things internal would you have had them leave out in order > to > > >be more different from CP/M, which was a VERY popular OS at the time, > > >without removing its functionality. Since the features to which you > refer > > >are internal, I assume you have precice citations of common source code, > > >right? They're certainly not obvious to me in my role as a fairly > frequent > > >user. > > > > > > The features he refers to are the calls to the BDOS to do things like > > File_OPEN, > > FILE_CLOSE, FILE DELETE..... and so on. > > > > >Since there is only one segment in CP/M, I guess you've got 'em there. > Of > > >course it really doesn't matter what the location is, does it? I guess > any > > >OS that load a register and then calls a specific location is a copy of > > >CP/M, right? > > > > > > Not really, CPM loaded to a specific segment but apps could use any and > all > > to the then 8086 1mb limit. > > > > >> You can also terminate a program by calling location 0000h (again, in > a > > >> COM program). In CP/M this causes a warm reset (similar > functionality). > > >> > > >It's like saying a FORD is a copy of a Dusenberg because they both use > > >wheels. > > > > > > This was a feature unique to CPM and DOS as many others loc(0) was > > either reset (hard), ROM, unused or reserved. > > > > >The mapping of one register set into the other is not an accident. Ask > > >Intel about that! I'm told that CP/M-86 is considerably more than a > > >translation of CP/M-80. Now you suggest that the roots of MS-DOS are > > >entirely in CP/M? They may have common roots, as they reflect the then > > > > > > CPM-86 was not entirely 8080 code lofted, that would never ru without > help. > > Also there was a loader change implemented, boot loads a file system aware > > loader that finds cpm.sys. This was not the 8080 way. > > > > As far as register usage, that is an artifact of PLM used to write the > > V1.3/1.4 > > and later versions of CPM80. With that convention established it was kept > > to keep applications that called the BDOS compatable. > > > > >I've heard that, too. Does that mean that anyone who writes a program to > > do > > >what he's seen another program do is making a copy? You're not even sure > > he > > >actually saw and read the source code. How many programmers do you know > > >who'd simply copy someone else's work in a case like this? Everybody > wants > > >to leave his own mark. > > > > > > DOS 1.0 had COPYRIGHT Digital Research INC inside! There was a quiet > > copyright battle that forced DOS 2.0 (buggiest thing in the world!). This > > is not > > fiction and it was documented. > > > > >Buying something that shortens your burden is kind-of like buying an > > >integrated circuit rather than making the thing yourself starting with a > > >wheelbarrow of sand. The fact that Microsoft knew that IBM had gone to > > >Kildall probably told them what they wanted was sort-f like CP/M. > > > > > > They didn't care only that there would be apps for it to run like > Visicalc! > > > > Allison > > > From flo at rdel.co.uk Sat Apr 8 05:31:21 2000 From: flo at rdel.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: <200004080845.EAA28978@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <38EF0A79.A165523F@rdel.co.uk> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > > First off, European programmers are no better. At least when we > write unmaintainable piles of crap, it's because we don't know any > better. Europeans they seem to just love writing complex code just > for complexity's sake. When you generalise to this degree, you lose all credibility. I work on real-time embedded systems and complexity comes with the territory. Accusing Europeans en masse of writing complex code for complexity's sake is ridiculous. Why don't you just admit you've met about three European programmers, ever? From ghldbrd at ccp.com Sat Apr 8 12:43:36 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <200004080448.XAA00483@garcon.laidbak.com> Message-ID: Hello Paul On 07-Apr-00, you wrote: > Apparently, "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" saw fit to utter some of the following: > > > >>>> c > Also, according to one of the original Amiga coders, when > Micros~1 (I love that!) was writing Virus95, they tried to buy the > neat little Workbench feature that lets you control the mouse > pointer with the cursor keys in an emergency, but since C='s stuff > was all tied up in bankruptcy court in the Bahamas, they couldn't > touch it. As much as my Micros~1 mouse locks up on my > machine at work (running a Micros~1 OS, no less), I could sure > use that feature......along with the neat little pointer editor that > allowed me to draw my own mouse pointer instead of having to > accept the little arrow.... > > > > Paul Braun > NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. > nerdware@laidbak.com > www.laidbak.com/nerdware > I'm glad to see someone likes some of the features of AmigaOS that I have grown to love over the years. My mouse has a crochety switch on it right now and the left amiga and alt keys do come in very handy in that respect. One of the glaring things to compare is Microsoluff's infinite variations on DOS and Windoze (aka kluge of the month club). CP/M I seem to remember only got to 2.2. MS-DOS got to 6.22, and gosh knows how many kluges there will be of Windoze. The Amiga is now at version 3.5 and version 3.1 can be run on the origianl A1000 if one adds a socket and Kickstart ROM. Can't say that for Windoze 2000 and the original XT and AT. The Amiga was no world beater as far as machine quality; in many ways it was just enough different from the mainstream to be a pain. The o/s is what makes it stand out from the pack, and that began back in 1985. My 43 cents worth . . . . Gary Hildebrand Amigaphile From spc at armigeron.com Sat Apr 8 07:01:05 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <38EF0A79.A165523F@rdel.co.uk> from "Paul Williams" at Apr 08, 2000 11:31:21 AM Message-ID: <200004081201.IAA00865@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Paul Williams once stated: > > Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > > > > First off, European programmers are no better. At least when we > > write unmaintainable piles of crap, it's because we don't know any > > better. Europeans they seem to just love writing complex code just > > for complexity's sake. > > When you generalise to this degree, you lose all credibility. I work on > real-time embedded systems and complexity comes with the territory. > Accusing Europeans en masse of writing complex code for complexity's > sake is ridiculous. Why don't you just admit you've met about three > European programmers, ever? Well, before this turns into a large flame, let me quote explicitely what I was replying to: Richard Erlacher wrote the following: > Do I really think American programmers will ever take their > work that seriously, . . . No, but they should at least think about it, > don't you think? That's a farily broad generalization right there. Does that mean Richard looses all his credibility, too? I mean, he's come right out and stated that he considers programming an unproductive use of time [1]. Nice, eh? -spc (Although at times I'm inclined to believe that most, if not all, programmers, reguardless of nationality, love writing complex programs just for complexity's sake, or at least for the tin god of job security. Nothing conclusive, just a gut feeling (and seeing what passes for commercial quality code). Or don't have the time, or skill to write clear maintainable code) [1] I know he meant that he considers the time HE spends programming unproductive (or a waste of time, I don't recall the exact quote). As a programmer [2] I at first took that the wrong way until I got further into his message. [2] Which I am. But it's that I haven't met many programmers who can write solid, readable, maintainable code, American, European, Indian or whatever. Three German Ph.Ds that can't write re-entrant code for an embedded syatem. A French programmer who talks about programming at such a high level that an actual implementation is beneath him. An Indian Professor who didn't care if the students' programs even compiled! A Caribbean Professor of *SOFTWARE ENGINEERING* who hated programming! (yet taught the most convoluted methods to maintaining simple data structures). Not to be outdone, it was an American Professor who, when asked what to do if you don't know how to handle an error, was to simply not check for the error. Then there's the code I've had to work with. Simple unmaintainable messes. It's gotten to the point where I don't want to even be considered in the same profession as these people. So, the sample size might be too small. But a friend of mine works with European programmers (he's American), along with American programmers. The Americans just can't program period (there are a few exceptions), while the Europeans can, but they love (and he's quoted them on this) making it complex, for whatever reason (and again, there are a few exceptions). From Technoid at cheta.net Sat Apr 8 07:38:32 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: Poll: Best *monochrome* laptop display In-Reply-To: <20000407235716.499.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <200004081238.IAA17868@lexington.ioa.net> I would have to say the Amber/Red Gas Plasma panel in the Toshiba T3200. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Apr 8 08:59:19 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: Poll: Best *monochrome* laptop display References: <20000407235716.499.qmail@hotmail.com> <20000408001011.A14258@alcor.concordia.ca> Message-ID: <00ec01bfa162$a3fe9260$5d701fd1@default> Just picked up a Next Cube last week without anything else just the cube. Now the search is on for cables, monitor, KB, and mouse. Got a complete TurboStation a few weeks ago but have broken the password/logon yet. Let me know if you need parts for your station and if I locate them I will e-mail you. Good Luck with it. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rich Lafferty To: Sent: Friday, April 07, 2000 11:10 PM Subject: Re: Poll: Best *monochrome* laptop display > On Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 11:57:16PM +0000, David Vohs (netsurfer_x1@hotmail.com) wrote: > > What is, in your opinion, the best laptop with the best monochrome screen. > > If I was asked I'd definitely say the Macintosh Portable. > > > > I'd say this because this computer was one of the first to use active matrix > > screen technology. Do remember, in 1989 that was more or less new > > technology! > > Feh, LCDs are toys! :-) My current favorite is the orange gas-plasma > display on my Toshiba T5100/100. Which, by the way, I'm still looking > for Toshiba's unix, T/PIX, for -- I couldn't even find someone that > knew of it *at* Toshiba. :-/ > > ObClassics: Finally picked up a NeXTstation today, the search for > which got me into collecting classics in the first place. (Well, the > search for a cube, really. But this was too good to pass up.) > > -Rich > > -- > ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- > Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services > Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 > ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- > > From ip500 at roanoke.infi.net Sat Apr 8 10:12:43 2000 From: ip500 at roanoke.infi.net (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: Poll: Best *monochrome* laptop display References: Message-ID: <38EF4C6B.4C59D97D@roanoke.infi.net> You must have arms like King Kong to describe the HP 9830 as even remotely "luggable"---even with out its printer on top that thing is a moose. Not quite 2 men and a boy to lift it but pretty close. I always figured HP must have priced their stuff by the pound in those days! Craig Doug Salot wrote: > > On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Derek Peschel wrote: > > > Is the 2000 a "luggable" like the other Kaypros? If it is, and if we're > > counting "luggables", then wouldn't the Osbore's 5" display be worse? > > No, the 2000 was an MS-DOS laptop circa 1985 (way back when "2000" meant > "the future"). It had a cool looking aluminum case (sort of the Chevy Vega > of portables). > > The Osborne's 5" display was *much* more readable than the early large > LCD's. But if you want a cool luggable, go back 10 years before the > Osborne: the 1972 HP 9830 with dot-matrix LED display. > > BTW, Derek, did you ever get your GRiDPad to work? > > -- Doug From sipke at wxs.nl Sat Apr 8 10:06:14 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: no chars on uVAX console Message-ID: <004a01bfa16b$fc16f9c0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Digging up some literature on the web about the uVAX II console cable I've ran into some conflicting info: Story I | The MicroVAXII serial console port is: | | 9 pin D with pinout | 1 - grnd | 2,3 - snd, rcv (crossed to terminal for partial null modem) | 8 to 9 - shorted together | (I think, I don't have a manual handy. If I'm wrong would someone please | correct me.) Story II |The pinout is a bit strange: |DE-9 (DEC) DB-25 (PC) |1 1 |2 3 |3 2 |4 5 |5 6 |6 20 |7 7 |8 -\ |9 -/ (short 8 & 9) together I have made the latter cable but adapted it to a 9 pin PC-serial connector and I am pretty certain it is wired ok. Running Telemate as a terminal program i cannot set Hardware flowcontrol on cause it tells me that CTS=off (baud = 4800) I get no characters on the terminal when I startup uVAX (BA123). It sounds like the HD's restore OK and the little display at the bulkhead says C after first showing a few other characters. Pressing the restart/run button seems to have some effect because I can see a few leds on the TQK50 blink for an instance (The box is open but the cabinet-open switch is taped into the on position) What's is wrong ? Does anyone have a clue From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sat Apr 8 10:29:42 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: ; from mikeford@socal.rr.com on Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 12:18:23AM -0700 References: <200004071913.PAA09586@armigeron.com>; <002901bfa107$cbb457a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <20000408112942.A31589@dbit.dbit.com> On Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 12:18:23AM -0700, Mike Ford wrote: > I was speaking in reference only to MicroSoft QuickBasic, and quite a few > people were more than miffed when MS pulled the plug on it since the > applications they wrote depended on a runtime module from MS. And yes I > think MS did it to poke Apple in the eye. I think two different BASIC rumors are getting intermingled here. I don't know anything about M$ discontinuing their own product out of spite for Apple, the story I heard (and it sounds like several others here did too) was Billy saying "you'd better not try to compete with us on Mac BASIC, or we'll cancel your Applesoft license". There's no way to put a happy face on that... John Wilson D Bit From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Apr 8 10:42:33 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: no chars on uVAX console Message-ID: <000408114233.2020031a@trailing-edge.com> >Running Telemate as a terminal program i cannot set Hardware >flowcontrol on cause it tells me that CTS=off (baud = 4800) Hardware flow control? Gack. You want absolutely no hardware flow control, you want software flow control (XON/XOFF) only. My favorite terminal emulator for a PC-clone box is MS-Kermit, available for free from ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/ , and this will do the job quite nicely. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 8 11:13:18 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: <200004080845.EAA28978@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <001701bfa175$5cd56e00$0400c0a8@winbook> please see embedded comments below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner To: Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 2:45 AM Subject: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond! > It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > > If you were thumping Billy Gates and his friends by hinting that they simply > > bought something and filed off the rough edges and nibbled at the edges > > where it didn't fit, well, that's legitimate business. You might not see > > that as innovation (just to bring this discussion back to where we left the > > original thread) then keep in mind that those of us who use the software > > every day care a lot more about whether it works than whether it is totally > > new. It would be truly innovative to have software weenies get used to > > writing the code just as it was specified and leaving out every extra "hook" > > or whatever that wasn't in the spec, hence won't be accounted for in the > > doc's. > > Just for the record, and speaking as a programmer, I would find it truely > innovative if software was actually DESIGNED for a change, instead of hacked > on. I count myself lucky that I don't have to work with other programmers > or their code since I hear way too many horror stories from my buddies that > actually have to (and it's almost always worse when it involves anything > dealing with Mircosoft [1]). The last time I had to work with someone > else's code it was so horribly written [2] and obviously not designed that I > scrapped it and rewrote it. > Well, heuristic progamming is the hallmark of the American school of programming. The Japanese have, in recent years actually applied genuine and therefore 30+ (probably much older) year-old engineering principles to software engineering, a term which, in the American school, is still an oxymoron, and have regularly been reported to be bringing software tasks in within both budget and schedule. > > I even talked to the original programmer and his attitude was basically > ``Hey, the customer paid for it and it works. I'm not working on it again. > Screw you dude!'' It's rare when I want someone else shot on sight, but he > was one of them. > The notion that the original programmer will live forever, hence, always be available to fix things, is one of the main weaknesses of programming philosophy. Even I have fallen into that one. That's why plgramming languages have a construct for comments. > > Spec? Spec? That's a good one. > Yes . . . I'm an engineer, and I have learned over the years that I shouldn't take on work for which I don't have a qualifying (test-on-delivery) specification. That's sort of an "if it does this I get paid" test. This may encourage designing for the test, but that gets me off the hot-seat as far as defining what "works" means. If this spec isn't a part of the RFQ, then I make it part of the proposal process. Getting unconditional or defined-conditional qualifying specifications is like pulling teeth. Often it's my teeth . . . that's why I have several sets. > > > It would be truly innovative to have it tested systematically with a wide > > range of inputs, both random and systematic and to great depth to make sure > > that there's no way to make it go down the toilet, especially not by > > inadvertent input at the "wrong" time or place. I'd say that at a minimum > > it ought to be tested with every possible input of a single character at > > times when input is not expected and every combination of 2^32 chacters at > > every point at which input is anticipated. The software should behave in an > > entirely predictable way and give messages that are totally self > > explanatory. Do I really think American programmers will ever take their > > work that seriously, . . . No, but they should at least think about it, > > don't you think? It could be done automatically, though, couldn't it? > > First we should hope that the pro's learn not to write memory leaks, eh? > > First off, European programmers are no better. At least when we write > unmaintainable piles of crap, it's because we don't know any better. > Europeans they seem to just love writing complex code just for complexity's > sake. A friend of mine (B.S in Comp Sci from an American university) had to > explain to three German programmers (each with a Ph.D. from a European > university) why their code was not re-entrant, and show an easier way to do > what they wanted to do in the first place. They refused to make the change > (which only impacted five places in the code) since their code was > ``tested'' and obviously worked. Uh, no. It wasn't re-entrant. In that > particular case, that was a bug waiting to happen. > I didn't mean to suggest that being elsewhere-born and trained would make a programmer better. The art was defined by the sheer volume of code generated in the early years of microcomputing when micromputers were more available and more used in the U.S. than anywhere else. Consequently the techniques spread. I doubt programming will ever be freed from the mantle of "mystical art" or "right-brain activity" long enough to allow the introduction of discipline. I'm beginning to believe that programming is more a disease than an engineering discipline. It seems more folks get into it indirectly and almost against their own wishes. Thank goodness that they stick with it long enough to generate the tools we all use and love to hate. > > > > Although I might be more inclinded to remove redundant calls (that differ > > > only in device) but that's a step down the Unix direction. > > > > > That's a feature that came about when one fellow wrote one version and then, > > having become the boss, expected someone else to pick up where he left off, > > but not damage any of his now-sacred work. > > Well, it might also be a conscience design decision now that I think about > it. On a register starved 8080 it might not have been possible to specify a > device number, or might have increased the code size to load an extra > register. It's hard to say. > > But what you say is the current Microsoft way from stories I've heard. > > > > Not outright. And it's not like MS-DOS used that as the ONLY way to call > > > the operating system---the preferred method was still INT 21h. I suspect it > > > was only put in to help migrate software from CP/M to MS-DOS. > > > > Now there's an interesting notion! A programmer actually did something to > > help out the struggling programmers who were going to have to live with his > > work. How thoughtful! You don't suppose those not-so-glaring similarities > > between the two OS' might actually exist because the authors thought it wise > > to make the environment familiar, or at least familiar-looking. > > That's entirely possible. > > This whole conversation started because you stated you didn't see the > similarities between CP/M and MS-DOS. I came along and said that the > similarities were lower down, below the user stuff. I never said that was > good or bad. Other people seem to think Microsoft (or Tim Patterson) was > wrong doing what they did. I haven't. > > > > -spc (Amature computer historian ... ) > > > > > that's AMATEUR, you HISTORIAN > > Thank you. > > > WIth few exceptions, this tracks the PBS "revenge of the nerds" account of > > these events pretty closely. The thinly veiled truth must be in there > > somewhere. > > Well, I never saw the PBS ``Revenge of the Nerds'' but I have read several > books (and countless magazine articles and reference materials) but I'm > interested to hear what you think the truth is. > > -spc (AmaTEUR computer history then ... ) > > [1] For instance, a friend of mine is writing a program to automatically > restart programs if they stop running. Under Unix, this is already > provided by the init program yet it's something that is lacking > under Windows NT (which can run as a server, mind you). So he's > basically writing a clone of init for NT. The problem is that he > not only has to restart programs, but NT services, and that requires > an entirely different set of API calls than starting and stopping > programs (not to mention that you can get a signal when a program > dies, yet you have to poll to see if a service is dead). > > The project he's on is a complete disaster as the manager went for a > Microsoft solution using slews of programs communicating via COM, > DCOM, OLE and other alphabet soup of Microsoft technology. A year > later and it still doesn't work and my friend has basically told the > manager it has to be scrapped and done from scratch, preferably > using something other than Microsoft (although my friend might have > a slight bias). > > [2] In C with random indentation, C++ style comments (which his C > compiler accepted) and race conditions that would cause it to > fail under certain circumstances. > Well, that's not as bad as finding potential catastrophic failures and dispensing with then by changing the ground rules. That's how NASA likes to do it. BTW, your apparent juxtaposition of one word for its homomymn, and it happens all too often with this particular one. There's this term, pronounced "sloo" which is often misspelled "slew" but which should be "slough" also pronounced "sloo" meaning a swamp or quagmire. I've noticed this here in this forum several times in the last few weeks and had to complain. From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Apr 8 09:56:58 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! Message-ID: <003f01bfa16d$7b81baf0$7164c0d0@ajp166> >DOS and Windoze (aka kluge of the month club). CP/M I seem to remember only >got to 2.2. MS-DOS got to 6.22, and gosh knows how many kluges there will the CPM line I remember is: Dates are appoximate. 1.3 1976 1.4 1977 2.0 (2.2 released) 1980 MPM 1981 3.0 (aka cpm+) 1982 CPnet 1983 Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Apr 8 10:20:01 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! Message-ID: <005801bfa173$b2f7f9d0$7164c0d0@ajp166> >On Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 12:18:23AM -0700, Mike Ford wrote: >> I was speaking in reference only to MicroSoft QuickBasic, and quite a few >> people were more than miffed when MS pulled the plug on it since the >> applications they wrote depended on a runtime module from MS. And yes I just an OBTW: I use QB45, if someone didn't take the minor effort to complie to an .EXE and instead used BRUN.... well they did their own disservice. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Apr 8 11:28:51 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! Message-ID: <006101bfa177$9adf9f70$7164c0d0@ajp166> Richard: >available and more used in the U.S. than anywhere else. Consequently the >techniques spread. I doubt programming will ever be freed from the mantle >of "mystical art" or "right-brain activity" long enough to allow the >introduction of discipline. I'm beginning to believe that programming is >more a disease than an engineering discipline. It seems more folks get into >it indirectly and almost against their own wishes. Thank goodness that they >stick with it long enough to generate the tools we all use and love to hate. This is a good point. I write code, lots of it. I'm a hardware person so I'm one of those that really do not see myself as programmer save for I'm forced to! Also while I do see hardware as art (right brain) programming for me is mostly mechanical/procedural and IDEs drive me nuts for that reason. On the other hand, in the last 10 years there have been more lines of code generated the likely the preceeding 20 years and so on. The need to solve problems does force this forward. SEANS copy: >> The project he's on is a complete disaster as the manager went for a >> Microsoft solution using slews of programs communicating via COM, >> DCOM, OLE and other alphabet soup of Microsoft technology. A year >> later and it still doesn't work and my friend has basically told the >> manager it has to be scrapped and done from scratch, preferably >> using something other than Microsoft (although my friend might have >> a slight bias). Richard: BTW, your apparent juxtaposition of one word for its homomymn, and it >happens all too often with this particular one. There's this term, >pronounced "sloo" which is often misspelled "slew" but which should be >"slough" also pronounced "sloo" meaning a swamp or quagmire. To me fyi, SLEW is my word of choice for things that have a delta, IE: any moving target. MS interfaces are clearly slewed over time. While it must bother some as misuse, I read it as both usages as one rather funny pun. It is a quagmire and also there are a rather large collection of goo all adhering to the mess called Windows. Got any Windex? The idea of a windowing system, thank xerox parc for that, apple and MS put it in front of people when hardware to run it got reasonable, it was a hit. historically "windowing" was the killer idea just like visicalc and easy to use databases (dbase) that needed to happen to get a lot of computers on more than desks of computer savy people. Allison From pryor at wi.net Sat Apr 8 12:39:31 2000 From: pryor at wi.net (James Pryor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: Heathkit/Zenith H-110 (Z-100) References: <88.15b0d5d.25f7bc4f@aol.com> Message-ID: <38EF6ED3.8F84318@wi.net> Mike, I'll repeat my offer of $100 if you still have this stuff. Jim KB9VU@aol.com wrote: > > I have an operational H/Z-110 low profile computer with the Zenith Color monitor. Unit has dual hard drives and a floppy installed internally. MB is the last revision produced and has 768K loaded. The optional Gemini card to run PCDOS (IBM) native programs is also installed. Outboard Zenith 8" floppy drive in the factory enclosure. > > Original User Manuals, Technical Manuals and Service Manual set with all service bulletins included. > > ZDOS, MSDOS version 2, CP/M-80, CP/M-86 operating systems. > > Several applications software items including Wordstar, Multiplan, Condor, and others (15 original 3 ring binder documentation sets) and other user software totalling over 200 5.25" disks. > > $150 for the whole lot. Pick up in the St. Louis area. I need to get this system out of the way and into a new home for someone to use. Help! > > Thanks > > Mike Stover, Florissant, MO From mac at Wireless.Com Sat Apr 8 13:04:14 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <200004081201.IAA00865@armigeron.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: >... > Not to be outdone, it was an American Professor who, when asked what > to do if you don't know how to handle an error, was to simply not > check for the error. Clearly, this American Professor writes code for Linux! ;-) > Then there's the code I've had to work with. Simple unmaintainable > messes. It's gotten to the point where I don't want to even be > considered in the same profession as these people. > > So, the sample size might be too small. But a friend of mine works > with European programmers (he's American), along with American > programmers. The Americans just can't program period (there are a > few exceptions), while the Europeans can, but they love (and he's > quoted them on this) making it complex, for whatever reason (and > again, there are a few exceptions). This observation completely agrees with mine. I would make the further claim that American programmers who make complex code do not understand software engineering, either (with a few exceptions). The major reason for this is that most people are not suited to be software engineers. There are fewer people suited than there are opportunities for software engineers. Ergo: Problem. When computers were young, mathematicians tended to program them. They tended to be relatively careful programmers. Yet, the general level of software engineering up through the, say, early 80s was not all that great. (Take a look at some of that old code, and I think you'll find that the standards today have risen as to what we consider to be "good code" - and most of that old stuff doesn't rise to those levels.) So, compounded with needing more software engineers, the level of acceptable quality has risen. Therefore, today, your average piece of software is garbage (with exceptions, of course!). -mac From KB9VU at aol.com Sat Apr 8 13:04:47 2000 From: KB9VU at aol.com (KB9VU@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: Heathkit/Zenith H-110 (Z-100) Message-ID: <63.3f73750.2620cebf@aol.com> In a message dated 4/8/00 12:48:11 Central Daylight Time, pryor@wi.net writes: > Mike, > I'll repeat my offer of $100 if you still have this stuff. > Jim > > OK Jim - come get it. Mike Mike Stover, KB9VU CCA# 404 MARS AFA3BO Florissant, MO From KB9VU at aol.com Sat Apr 8 13:12:58 2000 From: KB9VU at aol.com (KB9VU@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: Heathkit/Zenith H-110 (Z-100) Message-ID: In a message dated 4/8/00 12:48:11 Central Daylight Time, pryor@wi.net writes: > Mike, > I'll repeat my offer of $100 if you still have this stuff. > Jim Jim - also, I travel almost every week so let me know when you plan to pick up. Make sure you have room for all the books and other junk. The only item I can't find is the 8" drive. Probably went with the H-89 stuff I sold last month. Know anyone that is looking for an H-89? I found another one while I was cleaning off shelves. Mike Stover, KB9VU CCA# 404 MARS AFA3BO Florissant, MO From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Apr 8 13:30:59 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <005801bfa173$b2f7f9d0$7164c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: >>On Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 12:18:23AM -0700, Mike Ford wrote: >>> I was speaking in reference only to MicroSoft QuickBasic, and quite a few >>> people were more than miffed when MS pulled the plug on it since the >>> applications they wrote depended on a runtime module from MS. And yes I > > >just an OBTW: I use QB45, if someone didn't take the minor effort to >complie to an .EXE >and instead used BRUN.... well they did their own disservice. > >Allison I don't think the MS qbasic for the mac ever offered a option to compile. Basically nothing that was done with the package will run past about OS 7.1 if that, so if it was just being stupid, everybody was. Good reason to keep a few old macs around to play the old games etc. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Apr 8 13:36:28 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: Poll: Best *monochrome* laptop display In-Reply-To: References: <200004080851.BAA13531@eskimo.com> Message-ID: Doug wrote: >On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Derek Peschel wrote: > >> Is the 2000 a "luggable" like the other Kaypros? If it is, and if we're >> counting "luggables", then wouldn't the Osbore's 5" display be worse? > >No, the 2000 was an MS-DOS laptop circa 1985 (way back when "2000" meant >"the future"). It had a cool looking aluminum case (sort of the Chevy Vega >of portables). It had a *very* nice, a good keyboard, and a four hour battery. But the screen sucked, and in only had a 720k floppy. However, mine was a luggable as I eventually had the docking station with a 5.25" 360k floppy and huge 30MB HD :^) The interesting thing about that 30MB HD was that it was huge. When I replaced it with a Twinhead 386sx/16 in 1990 I thought the 40MB HD would be equally huge, but I almost immediatly filled it (something to do with being able to suddenly run a lot of stuff that wouldn't have run/been usable on the Kaypro). The Twinhead screen isn't bad, though it has a ghosting problem, and systems battery was never good for anything other than an UPS. I've still got the Twinhead, but unfortunatly got rid of the Kaypro in '93. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cfandt at netsync.net Sat Apr 8 14:48:38 2000 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: OT: Need Sun Electric Corp product tech info. Message-ID: <4.1.20000408144706.00a282e0@206.231.8.2> Yes, decidedly off topic but I intend for this msg to be the initial contact for answers to my questions. This shall be discussed further off-list, not here. I hope there are one or more folks who read this who've worked on or at least been around old time race cars which used Sun Tachometers and have an answer to the following: I'm trying to restore a Sun Tachometer Transmitter for a friend who's furiously trying to finish his 1953-vintage Kurtis Kraft race car restoration project before the upcoming AACA show season. It is a magneto-type ignition system and he's found a used Transmitter. Model number is EB37, MAGneto type and it is hung off a Ford Flathead V8. There are two batteries mounted inside the unit, obviously because often race cars with magneto ignition have no need of a battery whether it be 6V or 12V. They _look_ like NiCd cells, maybe 600-800 mAh capacity, but I'm not 100% sure. This unit is from back in the late 1950's and has a "1058" rubber-stamped in orange ink on the back of the case - I suspect Oct, 1958. Would anybody be able to confirm if these are indeed NiCd cells? Reason I'm not sure is I haven't found when NiCd batteries actually came into use and I believe they are a 60's invention, not 50's which this Sun unit evidently dates to. If not NiCd, what are they? Thanks for your time! Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From jpero at cgocable.net Sat Apr 8 10:29:31 2000 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: Dallas module battery replacement... In-Reply-To: <00ec01bfa162$a3fe9260$5d701fd1@default> Message-ID: <200004081925.e38JPar22437@admin.cgocable.net> Hi, Heard of few getting into theirs to hook into a new battery when the old battery expired. Drilled short depth in 3 places hoping to find cavity within and didn't find it. It is completely filled with epoxy to the brim. How did one manage to expose theirs to get at the battery itself? I have more and more coming of machines equipped with dallas and it's clones. In fact, I have seen few go dead on pentium boards also. Be thankful that now that most newer boards are using coin lithium battery but still, there are useful machines out there with that solid block of IC and dead battery, quartz in potted containers. Wizard From sipke at wxs.nl Sat Apr 8 14:33:56 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: no chars on uVAX console Message-ID: <008a01bfa191$61bd77c0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 6:27 PM Subject: no chars on uVAX console > Is that the speed selected by the rotary switch on the console > bulkhead? Yep I've removed all boards save the memory boards (2*M7609) and the CPU (M7606-AA) Now I get characters (XON/OFF = on) and the bootprocess continues until char 3 I've tried to put some of the boards back but I am not sure if I have a missing board. Het boards were arranged as follows slot 1 ----------------M 7606------------------ slot 2 ----------------M 7609------------------ slot 3 ----------------M 7609------------------ slot 4 -----M7516-------- (empty) slot 5 -----M7555-------- ------M7546------ slot 6 (empty) ---Dilog sq703a--- The uVAX used to contain a Serial concentrator or something like it but that was removed, propably from one of the empty slot positions. I've gathered that the first 4 slots are different from the rest of the BA123, those beeing true Qbus 22 slots. Should I rearrange the boards ? If so what do you suggest? Sipke de Wal From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 8 14:50:27 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: Dallas module battery replacement... In-Reply-To: <200004081925.e38JPar22437@admin.cgocable.net> from "jpero@cgocable.net" at Apr 8, 0 03:29:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 994 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000408/c289187a/attachment.ksh From wanderer at bos.nl Sat Apr 8 17:34:15 2000 From: wanderer at bos.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: H750 powersupply drawings/schematics References: Message-ID: <38EFB3E7.1167@bos.nl> Hello All, Can someone help me with schematics of the H750 power control unit, which is used in the 11/35? It utilizes 1 H744 unit (5V/25A), but has also a power board delivering 15V, 5V and -15V, of which I do not know how much current it deliveres. I do have the schematics of the H744 unit. It did (partly) burn out, and apparently also fried (hopefully only partly) the processor... Thanks, Ed From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sat Apr 8 15:35:21 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: Dallas module battery replacement... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That's exactly what my friend did - ground away *carefully* with a dremel until it was exposed. Jeff (Technoid) on this list mentioned in the Sun NVRAM thread that he'd done this successfully...maybe he's got some practical advice for you. Cheers, Aaron On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > Heard of few getting into theirs to hook into a new battery when > > the old battery expired. > > > > Drilled short depth in 3 places hoping to find cavity within and > > didn't find it. It is completely filled with epoxy to the brim. How > > did one manage to expose theirs to get at the battery itself? > > I seem to remember that these devices consist of a norml IC package > (containing the silicon die) with connections on top (as well as the > usual pins along the sides to go into the PCB) for the battery and crystal > (?). The latter parts are potted in epoxy on top of the normal package. > > I am told (although I've never tried this) that if you carefuly cut/grind > away at the top of the device with (say) a Dremel tool, you can expose > the connections without damaging any of the parts. Then disconnect the > old battery and wire up a new one. > > As I said I've not tried this, and you'll probably ruin the first few > devices you look at, but it might be a starting point. > > -tony > From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Apr 8 14:21:14 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:38 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! Message-ID: <00c001bfa195$e03fcd60$7164c0d0@ajp166> >>just an OBTW: I use QB45, if someone didn't take the minor effort to >>complie to an .EXE >>and instead used BRUN.... well they did their own disservice. >> >>Allison > >I don't think the MS qbasic for the mac ever offered a option to compile. >Basically nothing that was done with the package will run past about OS 7.1 >if that, so if it was just being stupid, everybody was. Good reason to keep >a few old macs around to play the old games etc. My fault, I assumed it was PC and dos world. I have no clue on MACs and can almost recognize one 2:3 tries. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Apr 8 15:05:35 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: no chars on uVAX console Message-ID: <00c401bfa195$e34e1ed0$7164c0d0@ajp166> ->I've removed all boards save the memory boards (2*M7609) >and the CPU (M7606-AA) > >Now I get characters (XON/OFF = on) and the bootprocess continues >until char 3 Xon/Xoff is DECs standard flow control, VTxxxS know how to do that. >I've tried to put some of the boards back but I am not sure if I have a >missing >board. > >Het boards were arranged as follows > slot 1 AB/CD >slot 1 ----------------M 7606------------------ slot 2 AB/CD >slot 2 ----------------M 7609------------------ slot 3 AB/CD >slot 3 ----------------M 7609------------------ slot 4/5 AB/AB >slot 4 -----M7516-------- (empty) slot 7/6 AB/AB >slot 5 -----M7555-------- ------M7546------ slot 8/9 AB/AB >slot 6 (empty) ---Dilog sq703a--- This was the smaller BA23? if so then the slot next to the m7516 is the bus grant break and the slot 6 empty is a bus grant break. Notice my margin comments. the odd ordering of slots 4-9 indicate direction of bus grant for Interrupts and DMA. >The uVAX used to contain a Serial concentrator or something That was likely a DHV11 or DZV11, worth having. >I've gathered that the first 4 slots are different from the rest of >the BA123, those beeing true Qbus 22 slots. Not quite. It's the AB/CD vs AB/AB serpentine bus grant. The BA123 has more of the AB/CD slots than BA23. FYI: AB are address/data Q22 and CD or special bussed for memory or cards that only need power. > Should I rearrange the boards ? If so what do you suggest? Yes. slot 1 AB/CD >slot 1 ----------------M 7606------------------ slot 2 AB/CD >slot 2 ----------------M 7609------------------ slot 3 AB/CD >slot 3 ----------------M 7609------------------ slot 4/5 AB/AB >slot 4 -----M7516-------- ------m7546------ slot 7/6 AB/AB >slot 5 -----M7555-------- ------sq703A------ slot 8/9 AB/AB >slot 6 (empty) (empty) Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Apr 8 14:31:26 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: Need Sun Electric Corp product tech info. Message-ID: <00c201bfa195$e1ceaac0$7164c0d0@ajp166> >I hope there are one or more folks who read this who've worked on or at >least been around old time race cars which used Sun Tachometers and have an >answer to the following: > >I'm trying to restore a Sun Tachometer Transmitter for a friend who's >furiously trying to finish his 1953-vintage Kurtis Kraft race car >restoration project before the upcoming AACA show season. It is a >magneto-type ignition system and he's found a used Transmitter. Model >number is EB37, MAGneto type and it is hung off a Ford Flathead V8. > >There are two batteries mounted inside the unit, obviously because often >race cars with magneto ignition have no need of a battery whether it be 6V >or 12V. They _look_ like NiCd cells, maybe 600-800 mAh capacity, but I'm >not 100% sure. This unit is from back in the late 1950's and has a "1058" >rubber-stamped in orange ink on the back of the case - I suspect Oct, 1958. They are likely mercury cells, I used to have to find them for the tach(SUN) in the crown Vicki my brother had. common was the 5.8V/250mah. >Would anybody be able to confirm if these are indeed NiCd cells? Reason I'm >not sure is I haven't found when NiCd batteries actually came into use and >I believe they are a 60's invention, not 50's which this Sun unit evidently Nicads are quite old. Though the common form on the 50s-60s was the wet cells that looked like lead acid. They were also available as hermetic (well sorta) then and not cheap. Allison From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sat Apr 8 16:01:14 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: Complete List Archives Available! Message-ID: Hi, I know Kevan indicated recently that he was in the process of rebuilding his archives, and I'm not sure of the current status of that, but in the meantime I've put up all archives since March of 1997 (start of the list) at http://www.retrobytes.org. I can't express how many times his archives saved me and I just wanted to get that information back up for the public as soon as possible. I was a little shocked when I sent the U Washington Listproc server an "index" command and found that they still had all of the list archives available! Another thing that amazed me was how *prolific* this list has been in the past. One month (April 1999) was just shy of *3000* messages! I haven't totaled everything, but I would easily guess that there's upwards of 50,000 messages for the last three years. What an unbelievable technical resource! I think there was a comment about the volume of messages that Tony Duell posts; if you have any doubt, look through any of the months by Author to see just *how much* he contributes here. One of the things I'm considering is making a CD-rom distribution of the list archives available to list members; any interest? It would allow for faster searching and accessability to the archives for someone working on a classic system not in the immediate vicinity of an internettable computer. I could make it available as an ISO image download by individual request, or burn CD's here for the cost of media/shipping. I still need to add the search capability, so I'm seriously looking for someone with experience setting up Glimpse or something similar. Also, any ideas for setting this up for a CD version would be appreciated. Cheers, Aaron Special thanks to Hans Franke for supplying me with his saved archives, before I knew about UWash's listproc archive... From Technoid at cheta.net Sat Apr 8 16:15:45 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: Dallas module battery replacement... In-Reply-To: <200004081925.e38JPar22437@admin.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <200004082120.RAA20847@lexington.ioa.net> Depends on the make how to remake the clock batt. The SG Thompson chip I retrofitted a batt onto had the leads on the right side of the chip and they were easily exposed with a knife. The dallas chips are constructed a bit differently with no gap between the sram on the bottom and the batt/oscillator in the epoxy 'brick' on top. The dallas chips are often 'missing' a few pins. Those pins are likely bent upward and are the leads for power, ground and oscillator connections. The dremel drill will likely clear a path but you are going to have to take each model chip and learn how it is constructed to fix it. It is perfectly ok to use a 'clone' batt to power the sram. I used a 4.5volt batt I scrounged from a 286 to power the sg thompson chip while I waited for the Dallas to arrive. Still, it is far easier to just replace the thing. I had to hang a batt on the old one because it was very difficult to find the correct replacement part. I hear they won't really be in the channel til next year! I got mine straight from Dallas and they had nearly none. I might have gotten thier last DS1642! -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From jpero at cgocable.net Sat Apr 8 12:48:27 2000 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: Dallas module battery replacement... In-Reply-To: <200004082120.RAA20847@lexington.ioa.net> References: <200004081925.e38JPar22437@admin.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <200004082144.e38LiWr18440@admin.cgocable.net> > From: Technoid@cheta.net > Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 17:15:45 -0400 > To: jpero@cgocable.net > Cc: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Dallas module battery replacement... > Depends on the make how to remake the clock batt. The SG Thompson chip I > retrofitted a batt onto had the leads on the right side of the chip and > they were easily exposed with a knife. > > The dallas chips are constructed a bit differently with no gap between the > sram on the bottom and the batt/oscillator in the epoxy 'brick' on top. > The dallas chips are often 'missing' a few pins. Those pins are likely > bent upward and are the leads for power, ground and oscillator > connections. You forgot few models that left a clear contents pin bent up or cut. Mostly I deal with are DS1287 and DS12887, DS12887A/B and DS12B887 series. Where does the battery appox located toward pin 1 end or away? > The dremel drill will likely clear a path but you are going > to have to take each model chip and learn how it is constructed to fix it. I happen to have that tool, but not so fun part is LOT OF ground up dust. Cutting into PCBs is what I hate, fiberglass gives super fine glass dust powder. > It is perfectly ok to use a 'clone' batt to power the sram. I used a > 4.5volt batt I scrounged from a 286 to power the sg thompson chip while I > waited for the Dallas to arrive. >From what I see, Dallas would always use 3V lithium coins. What else that will give good shelf life and last usually 10 years? > Still, it is far easier to just replace the thing. I had to hang a batt > on the old one because it was very difficult to find the correct > replacement part. I hear they won't really be in the channel til next > year! I got mine straight from Dallas and they had nearly none. I might > have gotten thier last DS1642! You haven't touched the issues: Cost, hard to get dallas and it's clones on any electron suppliers even JDR (costly). Some boards like digital boards prefers one and only one brand, one model #, but usually clone boards and many brands of boards like any compatiable types of cmos IC. Wizard From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Apr 8 16:46:15 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: Freebies & Others Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000408144615.00938e00@mail.bluefeathertech.com> I'm CC'ing this to classiccmp and port-vax because what I have is pertinent to anyone using rackmount hardware (or VME boards). Both items are LOCAL PICKUP ONLY, Kent, Washington (southeast of Seattle). NON-FREEBIE... Asking $50.00 or best offer. Five-foot tall enclosed equipment rack for 19" hardware. Cosmetically OK, some scratching of the paint, no dents or drops that I can see. Rails front and back are pre-drilled and tapped for standard 10-32 screws. Has 'wiremold' brand plug strip mounted along one side to the rear, and a humongous (12" at least) cooling fan in the bottom. Said fan draws air through a removable/cleanable aluminum-mesh filter on the bottom/front, then blows it up from the bottom of the cabinet. It's noisy, but it moves a load of air! The power cord for said fan was frayed and cracking, so I cut it off. Can be easily replaced. It's on wheels, and includes a magnetic-latch rear door. Black/Light Tan color scheme. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- FREE TO A GOOD HOME... Charles River Data Systems VME Chassis, Rackmount (std. 19"), with slides. Eight-slot, if I recall correctly, big beefy power supply, plenty of I/O connectors, and space to mount hard drives (5.25 or 3.5, your choice). Heck, I think I may even have the key for the keyswitch up front. If you buy the rack, and then decide you want the chassis, great. If not, said chassis is a first-come, first-served freebie. Thanks much! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 8 16:54:56 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: <006101bfa177$9adf9f70$7164c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <001501bfa1a5$16736400$0400c0a8@winbook> Being a foreigner myself, naturalized in '60 or so, and having gotten through the school system without aid of ESOL and other programs designed to make it easy to communicate without ever having learned the language in a rigorous way, I guess I'm oversensitized to syntax errors of this type. They're a petty annoyance the way spelling once was, but now that so many folks filter out their own spelling and "typer-geographical" errors the ones that the spell-checker can't catch are all that remain. It's painful to me to see one use 'wrote' when what's meant is 'rote' and that sort of thing. Once in a while I have to jump someone for comitting such a sin. Your defense is unnecessary, since it's only by coincidence that I happened to jump on this error, having seen it several times over the past few weeks. However, the sense I got was the MS was being dogged because of its lack of a delta, i.e innovation and its proclivity to do so ad nauseum. If you misspell/mistype a word now and again, it's no big deal these days. This particular expression is use so much without a thought as to its actual meaning. I'm not entirely certain how the term slough became associated with an indeterminate but large number, but that seems to be what is meant. I guess it started with someone referring to ducks or frogs or mosquitoes. There once was a daily or weekly vignette on NPR, in which the host, named John Ciardi (pronounced CHARDY, tough I'm guessing at the spelling) presented the entymology of commonly used linguistic constructs like this example. I don't believe I ever heard his take on this one. Though computers have relieved us of the burden of learning proper orthography, it's well remembered that the spelling gives indication as to the meaning only if it's correct. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: allisonp To: Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 10:28 AM Subject: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond! > Richard: > > >available and more used in the U.S. than anywhere else. Consequently the > >techniques spread. I doubt programming will ever be freed from the mantle > >of "mystical art" or "right-brain activity" long enough to allow the > >introduction of discipline. I'm beginning to believe that programming is > >more a disease than an engineering discipline. It seems more folks get > into > >it indirectly and almost against their own wishes. Thank goodness that > they > >stick with it long enough to generate the tools we all use and love to > hate. > > This is a good point. I write code, lots of it. I'm a hardware person so > I'm > one of those that really do not see myself as programmer save for I'm forced > to! Also while I do see hardware as art (right brain) programming for me is > mostly mechanical/procedural and IDEs drive me nuts for that reason. > > On the other hand, in the last 10 years there have been more lines of code > generated the likely the preceeding 20 years and so on. The need to solve > problems does force this forward. > > SEANS copy: > > >> The project he's on is a complete disaster as the manager went for a > >> Microsoft solution using slews of programs communicating via COM, > >> DCOM, OLE and other alphabet soup of Microsoft technology. A year > >> later and it still doesn't work and my friend has basically told the > >> manager it has to be scrapped and done from scratch, preferably > >> using something other than Microsoft (although my friend might have > >> a slight bias). > > > Richard: > > BTW, your apparent juxtaposition of one word for its homomymn, and it > >happens all too often with this particular one. There's this term, > >pronounced "sloo" which is often misspelled "slew" but which should be > >"slough" also pronounced "sloo" meaning a swamp or quagmire. > > > To me fyi, SLEW is my word of choice for things that have a delta, IE: > any moving target. MS interfaces are clearly slewed over time. > > While it must bother some as misuse, I read it as both usages as > one rather funny pun. It is a quagmire and also there are a rather large > collection of goo all adhering to the mess called Windows. Got any Windex? > > The idea of a windowing system, thank xerox parc for that, apple and MS > put it in front of people when hardware to run it got reasonable, it was a > hit. > historically "windowing" was the killer idea just like visicalc and easy to > use databases (dbase) that needed to happen to get a lot of computers > on more than desks of computer savy people. > > Allison > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 8 16:57:28 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: Message-ID: <001f01bfa1a5$70ce3060$0400c0a8@winbook> I couldn't resist . . . see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Cheponis To: Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 12:04 PM Subject: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond! > On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > >... > > > Not to be outdone, it was an American Professor who, when asked what > > to do if you don't know how to handle an error, was to simply not > > check for the error. > > Clearly, this American Professor writes code for Linux! ;-) > Why not? That's how NASA handles them! > > > Then there's the code I've had to work with. Simple unmaintainable > > messes. It's gotten to the point where I don't want to even be > > considered in the same profession as these people. > > > > So, the sample size might be too small. But a friend of mine works > > with European programmers (he's American), along with American > > programmers. The Americans just can't program period (there are a > > few exceptions), while the Europeans can, but they love (and he's > > quoted them on this) making it complex, for whatever reason (and > > again, there are a few exceptions). > > This observation completely agrees with mine. I would make the further claim > that American programmers who make complex code do not understand > software engineering, either (with a few exceptions). > > The major reason for this is that most people are not suited to be > software engineers. There are fewer people suited than there are > opportunities for software engineers. Ergo: Problem. > > When computers were young, mathematicians tended to program them. They > tended to be relatively careful programmers. > > Yet, the general level of software engineering up through the, say, > early 80s was not all that great. (Take a look at some of that old code, > and I think you'll find that the standards today have risen as to what > we consider to be "good code" - and most of that old stuff doesn't rise > to those levels.) > > So, compounded with needing more software engineers, the level of > acceptable quality has risen. Therefore, today, your average piece of > software is garbage (with exceptions, of course!). > > > -mac > From sipke at wxs.nl Sat Apr 8 16:57:31 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: succes on the uVAX II Message-ID: <009d01bfa1a5$7135f2e0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> finally success !!! With only the CPU and the memory boards and the RDQ3 in the system I was able to boot into VMS 5.5. Had to reboot with "b /1" and "set uafalternate 1" to circumvent the login but it worked. Now let's start some serious learning about VMS ;-) Tomorrow we'll see about the other boards and the batteries are propably gone but those things seem manageble now thanx everyone for the help sipke From sipke at wxs.nl Sat Apr 8 17:03:41 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: no chars on uVAX console References: <00c401bfa195$e34e1ed0$7164c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <00a701bfa1a6$50850080$030101ac@boll.casema.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: allisonp To: Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 10:05 PM Subject: Re: no chars on uVAX console Allison wrote: > > > >Het boards were arranged as follows > > > slot 1 AB/CD >slot 1 ----------------M 7606------------------ > slot 2 AB/CD >slot 2 ----------------M 7609------------------ > slot 3 AB/CD >slot 3 ----------------M 7609------------------ > slot 4/5 AB/AB >slot 4 -----M7516-------- (empty) > slot 7/6 AB/AB >slot 5 -----M7555-------- ------M7546------ > slot 8/9 AB/AB >slot 6 (empty) ---Dilog sq703a--- > > This was the smaller BA23? if so then the slot next to the m7516 is the > bus grant break > and the slot 6 empty is a bus grant break. Notice my margin comments. the > odd ordering of > slots 4-9 indicate direction of bus grant for Interrupts and DMA. > > > slot 1 AB/CD >slot 1 ----------------M 7606------------------ > slot 2 AB/CD >slot 2 ----------------M 7609------------------ > slot 3 AB/CD >slot 3 ----------------M 7609------------------ > slot 4/5 AB/AB >slot 4 -----M7516-------- ------m7546------ > slot 7/6 AB/AB >slot 5 -----M7555-------- ------sq703A------ > slot 8/9 AB/AB >slot 6 (empty) (empty) > > Allison > > I Thought on the BA123-bus the first 4 quad slots had an AB/CD configuration but I'll try this one. Thanx Sipke From donm at cts.com Sat Apr 8 17:33:37 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: My NEC APC is working In-Reply-To: <200004080711.AAA19368@siconic.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: Hello Sellam, > Y'all may recall I wrote a couple weeks back about needing an NEC APC > to try to read these disks that a geophysicist sent me so Guatemala can > find all their precious resources. > > Fast forward a few weeks: I spent an hour or so digging around my > warehouse and managed to locate and then extricate the NEC APC I > had. Tonight I finally got around to checking it out again (I got it over 4 > years ago and when I played with it then I couldn't get anything to come > up on it). Well tonight I was fiddling with it and realized the brightness > knob was turned all the way down. It turns out this thing works after all! > > The system came with 2 disks in the drives when I received it. One in > the A drive is labeled "SYS" and the other in the B drive something else, > it's not important, since the system is trying to boot from A. > > When I first turn it on, the upper lefthand corner of the screen shows > "[LOD]" and the disk light comes on. Actually, there are two red LEDs > per drive. The bottom light is always on, and it seems when it's reading > a disk the top one turns on. It tries the A drive and then displays "[LOD > C]" and momentarily accesses the B drive. Then I get "[LER]". When first powered up, but with the A drive door open, mine displays "[ * ]". When the drive door is closed on the disk, it changes to "[LOD]", quickly followed by "[LOD C]" - when the bootable disk is CP/M-86 - or "[LOD M]" - when the bootable disk is MSDOS. Following a lot of clunking in the drive, a lot of verbiage appears and finally the "A>" prompt. If the disk is not bootable, it makes a couple of tries and then displays "[LER]". I will mail you a bootable CP/M-86 disk to help you determine the nature of your problem. - don > So I need to know what this all means. I'm assuming that either the > disks are bad or the drive heads are dirty. Of course there may be > something worse going on but I'm an optimist (mostly). > > So I could use the following if you've got it: > > a) information from the system manuals that explain the boot process. > I've got the manuals but there is no way in hell I'd be able to find them > without a full-scale re-organization of my warehouse, which I hope to do > in my lifetime but definitely don't have the time for right now. > > b) a known good copy of a system disk. > > This is an NEC APC model APC-H02. The floppies are 8". > > Any help will be greatly appreciated and if we are successful with getting > the data off you will be given credit for your assistance!! Remember, > goats and village women! > > As ever, please reply directly to me as I am not subscribed to > ClassicCmp. > > sellam@vintage.org > > Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Looking for a six in a pile of nines... > > VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany > VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) > VCF East: Planning in Progress > See http://www.vintage.org for details! > From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sat Apr 8 17:42:26 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: Kennedy 96xx takeup arm Message-ID: <200004082242.SAA00183@dbit.dbit.com> I don't *think* this is OT, I don't see any IC date codes newer than '89... Is anyone here familiar with the inner workings of a Kennedy 9662 tape drive? FWIW, I think the 9610/9612/9660/9662 are all essentially the same drive, depending on the combination of {rack mount vs. table top} and {Pertec vs. SCSI}. My problem is, the drive keeps giving "TAK ARM?" errors, which according to the manual, means there's some problem with the takeup arm (i.e. the motor-driven arm which has the takeup pulley on it). I've been all through the manual section on how to adjust the various relevant sensors and I *think* I've got it more or less happy. I fiddled with the height of the capacitive disk thingy (which evidently is what encodes the arm position for the on-board micro), it was way off but now I'm getting more or less the voltage spread that the manual asks for and the "zero" position does give 0.0V. But I'm totally stuck with what to do next, partly because there are some differences between my drive and what's in the manual. The manual claims that there's a mechanical limit adjustment, but there's nothing in the area where the arrow points (it's not even visible on their sketch so I don't know what they mean here). The cam that drives the micro switch to set the limit of arm travel is nothing like what's in the book, I've been dinking with its set screw trying to move the limit one way or the other but the same mechanism seems to be what drives the *actual* mechanical limit (there's one peg which pushes another) and I don't seem to have independent control over them -- maybe that's on purpose since the manual wants the switch limit set a fixed angle past the mechanical limit (I would think they'd want it the other way around though???). Anyway I have no idea what to do next, is this familiar territory for any of you folks? FWIW the drive gave the same message when I first got it, but after I randomly poked and prodded around the takeup arm a bit it magically started working. So of course I'm suspicious that the actual problem is just a flakey connector or something (I've wiggled them all again) and not the mechanical adjustment at all, although as I say the range that the encoder was giving was all wrong. Unless it's actually my manual that's all wrong. I'd really like to bring this thing back to live, it was a wonderful tape drive. Thanks, John Wilson D Bit From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sat Apr 8 19:34:54 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: Classiccmp FAQ Message-ID: Hi, Digging through the archives, I came across what appears to be the last revision of Bill Whitson's FAQ for classiccmp. It has some great info, but is seriously outdated. I've posted it here: http://www.retrobytes.org/classiccmp/faq_p1.txt http://www.retrobytes.org/classiccmp/faq_p2.txt http://www.retrobytes.org/classiccmp/faq_p3.txt Derek, have you thought about maintaining a current FAQ for the current list? Cheers, Aaron From rcini at msn.com Sat Apr 8 10:32:12 2000 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! Message-ID: <003f01bfa1b7$7731c220$6464a8c0@office1> From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" and the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > Tim Patterson, who wrote the initial version of MS-DOS while at Seattle > > Products, may have had access to CP/M sources since Seattle Products sol d > > CP/M systems and they were working on an 8086 based computer in the late > > 70s. Tim probably modeled his QDOS (Quick-n-Dirty Operating System) clo sely > > after CP/M (some say he may have mechanically translated CP/M since > > copyright statements to Digital Research have allegedly been found in MS -DOS > > 1.x but I haven't seen any). Why not? It would have been a quick and e asy > > way to get an OS for the 8086 system up and running. > > I've heard that, too. Does that mean that anyone who writes a program to do > what he's seen another program do is making a copy? >>> Ask the lawyers or philosophers. I have a copy of DOS 1.1 that I've done a Sourcer disassembly of. I have not found anything referring to DR or CP/M anywhere in the resulting source. Now, one thought that I had is that there may be a sequence of code bytes unique to CP/M that was duplicated in DOS (nee, QDOS) by virtue of directly copying the CP/M source. This would produce a unique and identifyable signature. Since I only have v1.1 to examine and it doesn't have a DR notice, maybe that's why there's a v1.1 :-). If anyone has a copy of 1.0 that they can send me to work on, I'll do a book report for y'all... Rich [ Rich Cini [ ClubWin!/CW1 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ <================ reply separator =================> From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Apr 8 20:10:37 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: "Richard Erlacher" "Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond!" (Apr 8, 10:13) References: <200004080845.EAA28978@armigeron.com> <001701bfa175$5cd56e00$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <10004090210.ZM3399@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 8, 10:13, Richard Erlacher wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner > > The project he's on is a complete disaster as the manager went for a > > Microsoft solution using slews of programs > BTW, your apparent juxtaposition of one word for its homomymn, and it > happens all too often with this particular one. There's this term, > pronounced "sloo" which is often misspelled "slew" but which should be > "slough" also pronounced "sloo" meaning a swamp or quagmire. Eh? Perhaps American pronunciation differs, but over here "slough" (meaning swamp) is pronounced to rhyme with "plough" ('plow') :-) Anyway, "slew" means "large number or quantity" [Oxford English Dictionary], which I'm sure is what Sean means... On the other hand, "slough" pronounced "sluff" means dead tissue that drops off from living flesh. Given the context... -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From doug at blinkenlights.com Sat Apr 8 20:38:11 2000 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <001501bfa1a5$16736400$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I guess I'm oversensitized to syntax errors of this type. I know how you feel, dude. > Once in a while I have to jump someone for comitting such a sin. Hear, hear! > There once was a daily or weekly vignette on NPR, in which the host, named > John Ciardi (pronounced CHARDY, tough I'm guessing at the spelling) > presented the entymology of commonly used linguistic constructs like this > example. Dude, unless he was talking about ants, I'm pretty sure you meant "etymology"! Cheers, Doug From dogas at leading.net Sat Apr 8 20:36:37 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: Where o where? Message-ID: <000e01bfa1c4$175d0fa0$ca646464@dogclient01> I'm looking for a good spot to call home for my classiccmp related web pages (lotsa images&scans). I'd love to get it all under ARSDigitia ala http://photo.net but last time I checked, it required a Sun/AOLServer/Oracle trinity, so a few megabytes and a cool name will do... Oh yeah, free would be nice too. ;) Any suggestions? Thanks - Mike: dogas@leading.net From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sat Apr 8 21:59:16 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Doug Salot wrote: > > There once was a daily or weekly vignette on NPR, in which the host, named > > John Ciardi (pronounced CHARDY, tough I'm guessing at the spelling) > > presented the entymology of commonly used linguistic constructs like this > > example. It is Ciardi. My favorite was the show where he discussed words like "moron" and "idiot." From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Apr 8 21:12:46 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! Message-ID: <015001bfa1c9$ef979390$7164c0d0@ajp166> > Since I only have v1.1 to examine and it doesn't have a DR notice, >maybe that's why there's a v1.1 :-). Exactly! That is why I said V1.0. finding a copy of 1.0 is the challenge. There are other signatures. Check the bytes following all the RET instructions. as there were some funnies there. Keep in mind you have to look in the BDOS for all this as the BIOS is customer code and the CCP is also modifyable. In DOS most of that is embedded in the command.com. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Apr 8 20:41:49 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: succes on the uVAX II Message-ID: <00f701bfa1c8$84ce31a0$7164c0d0@ajp166> Remember HELP is not always organized as expected. So finding exactly what you need is not always obvious. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Apr 8 20:43:51 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: no chars on uVAX console Message-ID: <00f801bfa1c8$859af780$7164c0d0@ajp166> >> This was the smaller BA23? if so then the slot next to the m7516 is the >> bus grant break >I Thought on the BA123-bus the first 4 quad slots had an AB/CD >configuration but I'll try this one. See the excerpted comment from the earlier message. The BA23 and BA123 differ in the number of Q/CD slots with the BA123 having more. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Apr 8 20:39:38 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! Message-ID: <00f601bfa1c8$84047900$7164c0d0@ajp166> >Your defense is unnecessary, since it's only by coincidence that I happened No defense, more a commentary on how much fun language can be. >This particular expression is use so much without a thought as to its actual >meaning. I'm not entirely certain how the term slough became associated >with an indeterminate but large number, but that seems to be what is meant. >I guess it started with someone referring to ducks or frogs or mosquitoes. There is that. My experience is the term "slew rate" commonly associated with op-amps. Now the common use, slew meaning a whole lot of them is more in the realm of slang and something I am accustomed to. So the juxtapostion of delta, large quantiry and also quagmire in that statement was subtle good humor. Then again I enjoy Samual Clements and his style of writing as well. Allison From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Apr 8 22:14:12 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <001501bfa1a5$16736400$0400c0a8@winbook> References: <006101bfa177$9adf9f70$7164c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: >Though computers have relieved us of the burden of learning proper >orthography, it's well remembered that the spelling gives indication as to >the meaning only if it's correct. What does the study of birds have to do with language? ;) How many sides does an orthogon have anyway? The basic problem is that technologists often have no respect for language, or any other "soft" science. Hence the creation of jargon, which is best never considered "english", but it still gets used so tough. Slew is a dandy term, anybody working with operational amplifiers knows it refers to the rate of change of a signal, the slew rate. From Technoid at cheta.net Sat Apr 8 22:31:29 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <10004090210.ZM3399@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <200004090332.XAA14513@lexington.ioa.net> In <10004090210.ZM3399@indy.dunnington.u-net.com>, on 04/08/00 at 11:31 PM, pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) said: I have to agree with Pete on this one. I am an American and his definitions are correct. Slew also used as a term of flight orientation in Aircraft is all I can add. >On Apr 8, 10:13, Richard Erlacher wrote: >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner >> > The project he's on is a complete disaster as the manager went for a >> > Microsoft solution using slews of programs >> BTW, your apparent juxtaposition of one word for its homomymn, and it >> happens all too often with this particular one. There's this term, >> pronounced "sloo" which is often misspelled "slew" but which should be >> "slough" also pronounced "sloo" meaning a swamp or quagmire. >Eh? Perhaps American pronunciation differs, but over here "slough" >(meaning swamp) is pronounced to rhyme with "plough" ('plow') :-) >Anyway, "slew" means "large number or quantity" [Oxford English >Dictionary], which I'm sure is what Sean means... On the other hand, >"slough" pronounced "sluff" means dead tissue that drops off from living >flesh. Given the context... -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sat Apr 8 22:49:20 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: Dallas module battery replacement... Message-ID: <20000409034920.3733.qmail@web617.mail.yahoo.com> --- Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > That's exactly what my friend did - ground away *carefully* with a dremel > until it was exposed. > > Jeff (Technoid) on this list mentioned in the Sun NVRAM thread that he'd > done this successfully...maybe he's got some practical advice for you. > On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > Heard of few getting into theirs to hook into a new battery when > > > the old battery expired. I have done this on a 48T02 for my SPARC2. I did it at one end of the chip and I cut *through* the leads going up to the battery to disconnect it from the SRAM entirely. After I exposed the leads, I soldered on a 9V battery cable which I snapped onto a 9V battery top (removed from a dead battery), into which I soldered a 3V lithium battery that had solder leads already bonded to it (scavenged from a dead board of some kind). I placed all the active bits in a small ziploc baggie for insulation and closed up the case. I do have a replacement 48T02 on order ($15 from Mouser), but for now, I'm running. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From Technoid at cheta.net Sat Apr 8 22:56:32 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: Panic: Memory Address Alignment In-Reply-To: <001f01bfa1a5$70ce3060$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <200004090400.AAA19977@lexington.ioa.net> On my SparcStation 300 I often get the error: panic: memory address anichment A bunch of hex and a restart. Seems to happen when I 'push' the machine harder such as trying to run openwindows. It may run but will surely crash. I am thinking of putting heatsinks on the major ic's on the video card and motherboard in hope this will bring things under control if something has passed out of tolerance for heat. Any advice? I have greased many a chip for clip-on type heatsinks and for voltage regulators that were screwed onto a heatsink, but what kind of epoxy do I use to secure a heatsink to a chip in the absence of any other mounthing option? I assume an epoxy because I have SEEN lots of these securing heatsinks to chips and allways wondered if it was a special heat-conductive type. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From spc at armigeron.com Sat Apr 8 23:00:38 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: Innovation ?(was: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) In-Reply-To: <001901bfa143$90a55ba0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> from "Sipke de Wal" at Apr 08, 2000 12:16:52 PM Message-ID: <200004090400.AAA23625@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Sipke de Wal once stated: > > This thread was about innovation. And it is a thread about > innovation on the ClassicComp list were most of the > audience is more or less knowlegable about such matters. > I'd say then innovation then should also regard the innards of the > the software we discuss not only the userinterface. > > Now what constitutes true innovative operatingsystem software ? > BEOS ? > EPOC 2.0 ? > PALM OS ? I would say that Exec (on the Amiga) was innovative when it came out, although now it seems to have lost some of its luster. The Newton OS was very innovative, along with its GUI (it handles cut-n-paste better than any GUI I've used---I wish more GUIs did it the Newton way). BEOS is unique in being probably the first commercial OS written in C++. I can't say if it was designed from scratch as I haven't studied it enough (at all) to say. -spc (But I think this is straying a bit from Classic Computers) From donm at cts.com Sat Apr 8 23:21:30 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <200004090332.XAA14513@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Apr 2000 Technoid@cheta.net wrote: > In <10004090210.ZM3399@indy.dunnington.u-net.com>, on 04/08/00 > at 11:31 PM, pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) said: > > > I have to agree with Pete on this one. I am an American and his > definitions are correct. Slew also used as a term of flight orientation > in Aircraft is all I can add. Interesting! Will you provide a sample for illustration? - don > >On Apr 8, 10:13, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner > > >> > The project he's on is a complete disaster as the manager went for a > >> > Microsoft solution using slews of programs > > >> BTW, your apparent juxtaposition of one word for its homomymn, and it > >> happens all too often with this particular one. There's this term, > >> pronounced "sloo" which is often misspelled "slew" but which should be > >> "slough" also pronounced "sloo" meaning a swamp or quagmire. > > >Eh? Perhaps American pronunciation differs, but over here "slough" > >(meaning swamp) is pronounced to rhyme with "plough" ('plow') :-) > >Anyway, "slew" means "large number or quantity" [Oxford English > >Dictionary], which I'm sure is what Sean means... On the other hand, > >"slough" pronounced "sluff" means dead tissue that drops off from living > >flesh. Given the context... > > > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jeffrey S. Worley > Technical Services > Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. > 1979B Hendersonville Road > Asheville, NC 28803 > 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days > 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax > Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? > Technoid@Cheta.net > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > From spc at armigeron.com Sat Apr 8 23:23:15 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <001701bfa175$5cd56e00$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 08, 2000 10:13:18 AM Message-ID: <200004090423.AAA24169@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > I even talked to the original programmer and his attitude was basically > > ``Hey, the customer paid for it and it works. I'm not working on it again. > > Screw you dude!'' It's rare when I want someone else shot on sight, but he > > was one of them. > > The notion that the original programmer will live forever, hence, always be > available to fix things, is one of the main weaknesses of programming > philosophy. Even I have fallen into that one. That's why plgramming > languages have a construct for comments. It's not that the programmer will live forever, but that a programmer doesn't have to live with his mess that upsets me more. Once the code becomes a quagmire he can leave it behind and move on, much like the fellow whose code I had to maintain (or the sysadmin whose network I inherited. I swear I wanted to drag him back (behind my car) to the office and force him to fix his poor excuse for a network but I digress ... ) Then there was a job I held for two weeks at a software company. Their coding standards mandated NO COMMENTS! Their rational---comments are often misleading and don't match the code. So the code IS the COMMENT, as that's what the computer is executing (and I won't go into their other insipid coding standards). I left over major disagreements over coding standards. [ some slight shuffling of paragraphs here ] > Well, heuristic progamming is the hallmark of the American school of > programming. The Japanese have, in recent years actually applied genuine > and therefore 30+ (probably much older) year-old engineering principles to > software engineering, a term which, in the American school, is still an > oxymoron, and have regularly been reported to be bringing software tasks in > within both budget and schedule. > > [2] In C with random indentation, C++ style comments (which his C > > compiler accepted) and race conditions that would cause it to > > fail under certain circumstances. > > Well, that's not as bad as finding potential catastrophic failures and > dispensing with then by changing the ground rules. That's how NASA likes to > do it. I'm not entirely sure what's happened with NASA recently, but during the 90s I read that the software development group for the Shuttle had the highest quality assurance program period, and that up to January 1986, there had been only two bugs that made their way to the shuttle simulator (which is considered earth shattering bad among the programmers). Since 1986 I'm not sure if it has declined, but I did read an article within the last year that upheld the fine tradition of NASA programmers with being on time and within budget, all while working 40 hour weeks (which is something not even heard of in the industry). It might be NASA management doing the fiddling, but I doubt it's the NASA programmers. I wish more was written on the NASA programming teams. -spc (Or marketing hit with large clue sticks) From Technoid at cheta.net Sun Apr 9 00:05:04 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: Dallas module battery replacement... In-Reply-To: <20000409034920.3733.qmail@web617.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200004090508.BAA05747@lexington.ioa.net> Dallas may still have the chip in stock. A direct replacement for your SG Thompson is the Dallas DS1642. It doesn't matter what speed you buy so see if they have any of that chip type in any speed. I know from speaking with Mouser that they won't have the chip for several weeks.... Your situation is different since you apparently did not destroy the ocillator in your repairs as did I. I just hacked that batt on to the chip anyway and dealt without a battery-backed-up rtc for awhile while my replacement was shipping. I boxed the SG Thompson morphodite part I created in case I should need it. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 9 00:56:26 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: <200004080845.EAA28978@armigeron.com> <001701bfa175$5cd56e00$0400c0a8@winbook> <10004090210.ZM3399@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <000b01bfa1e8$5a16ee00$0400c0a8@winbook> While I'll freely admit my formerly steel-trap mind has, occasionally of late, shown characteristics of a polyethylene colander, I took a look at my newer dictionary, dated 1971, since I seem to have misplaced the 1957 Webster, which I used during the years I was learning the proper grammar, syntax, and orthography of the language. However, I find not only evidence supporting my conception of this slippery word, but certainly as much evidence as would convince nearly anyone that all these assertions that have arisen about slew, slough, slue, or whatever, with the one exception that the two pronunciations of slough I've found are either 'sloo' or 'slow' but I'd not be surprised to find others elsewhere. This turns out to be a can of worms, which was not what I intended. Back in the '50's I was taken "jump-shooting" at ducks in a slough pronounced as 'sloo' and was given to the notion that when one said "a whole (pronounced) slew/slough/or whatever" what was meant was 'slough.' Having now examined this veritable quagmire of denotations, connotations, and puported pronunciations, I feel that I now know less than when I began. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Pete Turnbull To: Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 7:10 PM Subject: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond! > On Apr 8, 10:13, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner > > > > The project he's on is a complete disaster as the manager went for a > > > Microsoft solution using slews of programs > > > BTW, your apparent juxtaposition of one word for its homomymn, and it > > happens all too often with this particular one. There's this term, > > pronounced "sloo" which is often misspelled "slew" but which should be > > "slough" also pronounced "sloo" meaning a swamp or quagmire. > > Eh? Perhaps American pronunciation differs, but over here "slough" > (meaning swamp) is pronounced to rhyme with "plough" ('plow') :-) Anyway, > "slew" means "large number or quantity" [Oxford English Dictionary], which > I'm sure is what Sean means... On the other hand, "slough" pronounced > "sluff" means dead tissue that drops off from living flesh. Given the > context... > > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 9 00:59:29 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: Message-ID: <000f01bfa1e8$c74d9be0$0400c0a8@winbook> See there, that's the sort of typer-geographical error or perhaps brain-fart to which I referred. Judging from th ewear on the keytops, I've been leaning on the keyboard too much. That, is one of those things that would slip by the spell-checker if I ever remembered, in my haste to "ship-it," to run it. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Doug Salot To: Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 7:38 PM Subject: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond! > On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > I guess I'm oversensitized to syntax errors of this type. > > I know how you feel, dude. > > > Once in a while I have to jump someone for comitting such a sin. > > Hear, hear! > > > There once was a daily or weekly vignette on NPR, in which the host, named > > John Ciardi (pronounced CHARDY, tough I'm guessing at the spelling) > > presented the entymology of commonly used linguistic constructs like this > > example. > > Dude, unless he was talking about ants, I'm pretty sure you meant > "etymology"! > > Cheers, > Doug > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 9 01:05:54 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: Message-ID: <001701bfa1e9$acf73fc0$0400c0a8@winbook> That was a great, though short, interlude. I miss it. Too bad the guy had to die on us. Note that I've corrected the two errors I made in the quoted segment. Neither of them would have been caught by the spell-checker. Have you noticed how often this happens in the newspapers? Common undetected errors, hence syntax rather than spellin errors, are using insure where ensure is appropriate, and of course, then where than goes, or vice-versa. When I was in high school I worked as a copy reader and later copy-writer at a local (neighborhood) newspaper. They don't have those any longer, so now we see the mistakes we never used to see. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Aaron Christopher Finney To: Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 8:59 PM Subject: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond! > > > On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Doug Salot wrote: > > > > There once was a daily or weekly vignette on NPR, in which the host, named > > > John Ciardi (pronounced CHARDY, though I'm guessing at the spelling) > > > presented the etymology of commonly used linguistic constructs like this > > > example. > > It is Ciardi. My favorite was the show where he discussed words like > "moron" and "idiot." > > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 9 01:15:16 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: <006101bfa177$9adf9f70$7164c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <001f01bfa1ea$f9d888c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Easy, now! Study of birds is ornithology. Orthography is spelling. Please see additional wisecracks embedded below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ford To: Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 9:14 PM Subject: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond! > >Though computers have relieved us of the burden of learning proper > >orthography, it's well remembered that the spelling gives indication as to > >the meaning only if it's correct. > > What does the study of birds have to do with language? ;) How many sides > does an orthogon have anyway? > >From the look of it I'd say it has jointed sides, however many that would make. > > The basic problem is that technologists often have no respect for language, > or any other "soft" science. Hence the creation of jargon, which is best > never considered "english", but it still gets used so tough. > Well, it's best to reserve the designation of language to what most of us use. The English language has the facilities to allow us to express quite precisely what we want or need to say. It seldom happens, though. I remember mentioning a few weeks back that with the trend toward minimalism in vocabulary, we'll be trying to interpret meaning from inflections on the single monosyllabic grunt we'll be using in another 30 years or so. > > Slew is a dandy term, anybody working with operational amplifiers knows it > refers to the rate of change of a signal, the slew rate. > Yes, and that's in teravolts per femtosecond, right? > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 9 01:40:00 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: <00f601bfa1c8$84047900$7164c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <002501bfa1ee$6e658aa0$0400c0a8@winbook> Please see comments embedded below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: allisonp To: Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 7:39 PM Subject: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond! > >Your defense is unnecessary, since it's only by coincidence that I happened > > > No defense, more a commentary on how much fun language can be. > > >This particular expression is use so much without a thought as to its > actual > >meaning. I'm not entirely certain how the term slough became associated > >with an indeterminate but large number, but that seems to be what is meant. > >I guess it started with someone referring to ducks or frogs or mosquitoes. > > There is that. My experience is the term "slew rate" commonly associated > with op-amps. > Yes, but that's a rate of change with units and everything! In "a whole slew of ..." it is a qualitative reference to a quantifiable value. > > Now the common use, slew meaning a whole lot of them is more in the > realm of slang and something I am accustomed to. > Yes, I saw that. It's a tertiary definition in the '71 Webster, but may have been promoted due to changes in usage in the intervening decades. The dictionary that was my reference when I learned the language > > So the juxtapostion of delta, large quantiry and also quagmire in that > statement was subtle good humor. Then again I enjoy Samual Clements > and his style of writing as well. > > > Allison > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 9 01:54:09 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: <200004090423.AAA24169@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <002d01bfa1f0$6a6e4de0$0400c0a8@winbook> The conventional wisdom where NASA is concerned, is that they HAD high standards through the Apollo program and that shortly thereafter, a lot of people left and apparently took vital talents with them. I've not worked directly with NASA people in a very long time, and can't agree or disagree with that view. I did work on one critical NASA program back in '86-'87 and was impressed with the cavalier attitude they displayed toward loss of human life vs. loss of hardware. They had ground rules which defined conditions that we, on the engine controller analysis team, determined would absolutely and in all cases cause a catastrophic failure on the launchpad with loss of life and loss of lots of hardware, costing way more than the $2e9 that the shuttle cost back then. One of the guys ran the numbers and a simulation of the effect of igniting all the LOX and H2 in one place, subsequently determining that we hadn't the technology to build a comparably destructive nuclear weapon, even the new high-efficiency types in the 40-50 TTon range. That's all speculation, I guess, but I did find it appalling that NASA considered in-flight power losses not detectable during ground testing were simply normal operation, hence required no special action, even though the defect could be inherited from one mission to the next. I don't know where this is supposed to lead. Anyway, I don't see NASA as a promising place to work for now. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner To: Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 10:23 PM Subject: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond! > It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > > > I even talked to the original programmer and his attitude was basically > > > ``Hey, the customer paid for it and it works. I'm not working on it again. > > > Screw you dude!'' It's rare when I want someone else shot on sight, but he > > > was one of them. > > > > The notion that the original programmer will live forever, hence, always be > > available to fix things, is one of the main weaknesses of programming > > philosophy. Even I have fallen into that one. That's why plgramming > > languages have a construct for comments. > > It's not that the programmer will live forever, but that a programmer > doesn't have to live with his mess that upsets me more. Once the code > becomes a quagmire he can leave it behind and move on, much like the fellow > whose code I had to maintain (or the sysadmin whose network I inherited. I > swear I wanted to drag him back (behind my car) to the office and force him > to fix his poor excuse for a network but I digress ... ) > > Then there was a job I held for two weeks at a software company. Their > coding standards mandated NO COMMENTS! Their rational---comments are often > misleading and don't match the code. So the code IS the COMMENT, as that's > what the computer is executing (and I won't go into their other insipid > coding standards). I left over major disagreements over coding standards. > > [ some slight shuffling of paragraphs here ] > > > Well, heuristic progamming is the hallmark of the American school of > > programming. The Japanese have, in recent years actually applied genuine > > and therefore 30+ (probably much older) year-old engineering principles to > > software engineering, a term which, in the American school, is still an > > oxymoron, and have regularly been reported to be bringing software tasks in > > within both budget and schedule. > > > > [2] In C with random indentation, C++ style comments (which his C > > > compiler accepted) and race conditions that would cause it to > > > fail under certain circumstances. > > > > Well, that's not as bad as finding potential catastrophic failures and > > dispensing with then by changing the ground rules. That's how NASA likes to > > do it. > > I'm not entirely sure what's happened with NASA recently, but during the > 90s I read that the software development group for the Shuttle had the > highest quality assurance program period, and that up to January 1986, there > had been only two bugs that made their way to the shuttle simulator (which > is considered earth shattering bad among the programmers). Since 1986 I'm > not sure if it has declined, but I did read an article within the last year > that upheld the fine tradition of NASA programmers with being on time and > within budget, all while working 40 hour weeks (which is something not even > heard of in the industry). > > It might be NASA management doing the fiddling, but I doubt it's the NASA > programmers. I wish more was written on the NASA programming teams. > > -spc (Or marketing hit with large clue sticks) > From spc at armigeron.com Sun Apr 9 02:11:16 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <001f01bfa1ea$f9d888c0$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 09, 2000 12:15:16 AM Message-ID: <200004090711.DAA28258@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > > Slew is a dandy term, anybody working with operational amplifiers knows it > > refers to the rate of change of a signal, the slew rate. > > > Yes, and that's in teravolts per femtosecond, right? I once calculated I was 5 femtofortnights in height. -spc (How that's for mixing dimentions? 8-) From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 9 02:17:48 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: OT: Revise the English Language? References: <200004090423.AAA24169@armigeron.com> <002d01bfa1f0$6a6e4de0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <005e01bfa1f3$b86ae000$0400c0a8@winbook> With all the discussion about language, I though you might find this interesting, off-topic though it may be. When reading this, keep in mind that the German language has recently been re-engineered for reduced redundancy and easier spelling. Dick *************************************** > > The European Union commissioners have announced that agreement has > been reached to adopt English as the preferred language for European > communications, rather than German, which was the other possibility. > > As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty's Government conceded that > English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a > five-year phased plan for what will be known as EuroEnglish (Euro for > short). > > In the first year, 's' will be used instead of the soft 'c'. > Sertainly, sivil servants will resieve this news with joy. Also, the > hard 'c' will be replaced with 'k.' Not only will this klear up > konfusion, but typewriters kan have one less letter. > > There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year, when the > troublesome 'ph' will be replaced by 'f'. This will make words > like 'fotograf' 20 per sent shorter. > > In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be > expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are > possible. Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters, > which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil > agre that the horible mes of silent 'e's in the languag is > disgrasful, and they would go. > > By the fourth year, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as > replasing 'th' by 'z' and 'w' by 'v'. > > During ze fifz year, ze unesesary 'o' kan be dropd from vords > kontaining 'ou', and similar changes vud of kors; be aplid to ozer > kombinations of leters. > > After zis fifz yer, ve vil hav a reli sensibl riten styl. Zer vil b > no mor trubls or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu understand > ech ozer. Ze drem vil finali kum tru. > > *********************************************** From flo at rdel.co.uk Sun Apr 9 04:33:43 2000 From: flo at rdel.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: Complete List Archives Available! References: Message-ID: <38F04E77.C6D98BF2@rdel.co.uk> Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > > I know Kevan indicated recently that he was in the process of rebuilding > his archives, and I'm not sure of the current status of that, but in the > meantime I've put up all archives since March of 1997 (start of the list) > at http://www.retrobytes.org. I can't express how many times his archives > saved me and I just wanted to get that information back up for the public > as soon as possible. Excellent. Thanks Aaron. I first found this list through a search engine hit on Kevan's archive, so I can imagine how many other people will be helped by making the expertise of this group public. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Apr 9 07:04:59 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <001f01bfa1ea$f9d888c0$0400c0a8@winbook> References: <006101bfa177$9adf9f70$7164c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: >> Slew is a dandy term, anybody working with operational amplifiers knows it >> refers to the rate of change of a signal, the slew rate. >> >Yes, and that's in teravolts per femtosecond, right? >> Typical values vary from less than a volt to no more than a couple 100 volts per microsecond. From jhfine at idirect.com Sun Apr 9 08:12:21 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: Message-ID: <38F081B5.76A210F6@idirect.com> >allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > The only innovation was marketing to the mass public. > Allison Jerome Fine replies: Since that seems to be the almost the only aspect that matters these days, then maybe that one of the reasons why DEC did not succeed. As you, and many others have stated, DEC had a better mouse trap. It almost always worked. The cheese was delicious and rarely ran out. But the other reason for the failure of DEC was that the DEC mouse trap was so much more expensive to buy that few households could afford to buy one. Never mind that in the long run, a serious mouse infestation would almost always be eliminated at less overall cost then using the variety of mouse trap which cost very little per unit, but rarely worked well. The less expensive unit was so low in initial cost that it was possible to buy a number of mouse traps even if a household had just one mouse to catch. And rather than re-use the mouse trap over again, it was as if it was just a simple to toss out the mouse trap with any mouse that was caught. As a result, millions of cheap mouse traps were sold that were very unreliable, but mass marketing and a very low price convinced almost everyone that was the only way to solve the mouse problem. Like it or not (and I did not like it at all), the expensive, reliable, re-usable that DEC made lay on the back shelf. Few people were even aware of them and since they were so expensive, most people who happened to pass by continued on their way preferring to stick with the model that promised success. You may not be able to fool all of the people all of the time, but you sure can fool most of the people most of the time. And if you have only one mouse to catch, then it really is less expensive to use a cheap mouse trap. After a while, the expensive mouse trap that few even hear about ..... Sad...... Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From transit at lerctr.org Sun Apr 9 09:48:48 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: Dec at Home (was: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <38F081B5.76A210F6@idirect.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Apr 2000, Jerome Fine wrote: > >allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > > The only innovation was marketing to the mass public. > > Allison > > Jerome Fine replies: > > Since that seems to be the almost the only aspect that matters these > days, then maybe that one of the reasons why DEC did not succeed. > As you, and many others have stated, DEC had a better mouse > trap. It almost always worked. The cheese was delicious and > rarely ran out. But the other reason for the failure of DEC was that > the DEC mouse trap was so much more expensive to buy that few > households could afford to buy one. Never mind that in the long Sort of speaking of which: did anyone ever buy any DEC equipment for home use (Not VAXen and stuff, I'm more thinking about their PC's such as the Rainbow?) From chris at mainecoon.com Sun Apr 9 10:13:14 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: Panic: Memory Address Alignment References: <200004090400.AAA19977@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <38F09E0A.2904344B@mainecoon.com> Technoid@cheta.net wrote: > > On my SparcStation 300 I often get the error: > > panic: memory address anichment > > A bunch of hex and a restart. A common cause of this in Sun land is bad memory. A somewhat less common cause, but still plausible given that you're (out of necessity) running an older version of Solaris is bad code. It's time for memory diagnostics; while those are running I'd hit the sunsolve site and start looking for recommended patches for 2.4 -- although given the symptoms you've described I'm guessing that it's a memory problem. Best, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Apr 8 22:43:08 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:39 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! Message-ID: <000601bfa231$c60421c0$6e64c0d0@ajp166> >> I have to agree with Pete on this one. I am an American and his >> definitions are correct. Slew also used as a term of flight orientation >> in Aircraft is all I can add. > >Interesting! Will you provide a sample for illustration? I'd be interested. I know pitch, roll and yaw. Though the slew rate for C150 ailerons is a slow 6 degrees/sec. ;) Allison From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Apr 9 11:26:44 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: Dec at Home (was: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: References: <38F081B5.76A210F6@idirect.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000409092644.0093a580@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 09:48 09-04-2000 -0500, Charlie Hobbs wrote: >Sort of speaking of which: did anyone ever buy any DEC equipment for home >use (Not VAXen and stuff, I'm more thinking about their PC's such as the >Rainbow?) Judging by the number of Rainbows I once saw at one of the Bay Area swap meets, and subsequent ones I've seen in various surplus stores, I'd say yes, quite a few must have been sold. Hard to give them away now. The Rainbow was not wildly popular. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 9 11:57:37 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: Dec at Home (was: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: Dec at Home (was: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond! (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) References: <38F081B5.76A210F6@idirect.com> Message-ID: <14576.46721.163495.713774@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 9, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > Sort of speaking of which: did anyone ever buy any DEC equipment for home > use (Not VAXen and stuff, I'm more thinking about their PC's such as the > Rainbow?) When I was in my teens (1985 or so) I worked in a retail computer store in a mall. We carried original IBM PCs, Apple clones made by Franklin, Kaypros, and...DEC Rainbows & Pros. I only saw a few of them sell...but they did sell. -Dave McGuire From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 9 12:00:14 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: Classiccmp FAQ In-Reply-To: from "Aaron Christopher Finney" at Apr 8, 0 05:34:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1353 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000409/861248bc/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 9 12:07:28 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <001f01bfa1ea$f9d888c0$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 9, 0 00:15:16 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 440 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000409/0e094a26/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Apr 9 10:40:30 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: Dec at Home (was: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond! Message-ID: <003201bfa23e$7fbe4030$6e64c0d0@ajp166> >Sort of speaking of which: did anyone ever buy any DEC equipment for home >use (Not VAXen and stuff, I'm more thinking about their PC's such as the >Rainbow?) Yes. PDT150, low cost (then) PDP-11 running RT-11. Robin, VT180 CPM system. DECMATE series (wordprocessing with extensions) Rainbow PRO3xx All pre-PC boom or leading into that time. Keep in mind that the idea of home computer was a 1984-5ish or later event. Before that marketing was more aimed at hobbiests(anything), lowcost home systems(mostly gaming) and business systems (packaged or extensible systems). As a reference in 1985 a good business system was a $5-7000 (USD) investment. It didn't make much difference if it was PC, S100, Multibus or whatever. Around then things we take for granted were not cheap. In 85 10-40mb of disk with controller was ~$700, decent printer $400+ and so on. For example in 1981 my NS* Horizon (z80 64k) with 5mb hard disk, H19 terminal, Anadex printer was valued around $3700! A PC with all the trimings to do the same task was not cheaper. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Apr 9 10:24:44 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! Message-ID: <003101bfa23e$7ed8e940$6e64c0d0@ajp166> >Since that seems to be the almost the only aspect that matters these >days, then maybe that one of the reasons why DEC did not succeed. Their lack of direct marketing via radio and TV was a handicap. However, KO felt the product being marketed was a technical one for professionals and not directed at hobbiests. >As you, and many others have stated, DEC had a better mouse >trap. It almost always worked. The cheese was delicious and >rarely ran out. But the other reason for the failure of DEC was that >the DEC mouse trap was so much more expensive to buy that few >households could afford to buy one. Never mind that in the long Mostly prose but not completely true. The cost for a Robin, Rainbow or PRO was consistant with the time for a competeing system with similar hardware, software and quality. Of course that was the early 80s. Reality was much more complex than the story of mice and traps. DEC suffered from a complex product, limited marketing and a vision that was right for the industry as it was (60s, 70s and early 80s) and not was it is (for 1987 on). As a result DEC was holding facilities like PNO, WFO and others complete with trained personell and nothing for them to do quite literally. At the same time engineering and marketing groups were sending things overseas for cost reasons. It didn't take a brain surgeon to see that overhead was way out of line as there were no layoffs until Palmer appeared. Also over the years there were what I called "stupid product decisions". My favorite is the LA75, $700 printer that TEC sold for $350 at local stores. Sure DEC improved it, but it was costly. Other were monsters like the VAX9000, fast, powerful and expensive. It was quickly replaced by the cheaper 6000 series. Older projects like the PRO, sold maybe 40,000 units against a plan that was only scaled for 30,000! If that sounds bad it was declared a failure. Exceeded plan and failed! An example of short sightedness as to the size of the market. Other examples are infamous. I got the dubious honor of participating in just a few. DEC was a engineering, a technology and service company. They did not do a good job at marketing. It was mismanagemant of costs would end a good run. I used to remind people and they thought me nuts. If you want to annoy the customer ship junk. If you really want to become unforgetable in the customers eyes, go out of business. The former they can forgive if you fix it, the latter is unforgiveable as your product is part of their business. DEC came close to unforgiveable, save for Compaq being there. Allison From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Sun Apr 9 12:45:46 2000 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <003101bfa23e$7ed8e940$6e64c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: What I remember about the rainbow at the time (I didn't have one) was having to buy a formatted floppy as the OS as delivered wouldn't format a raw floppy. I remember that being a very silly decision which third party folks exploited by offering a formatting utility. ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Sun, 9 Apr 2000, allisonp wrote: > >Since that seems to be the almost the only aspect that matters these > >days, then maybe that one of the reasons why DEC did not succeed. > > > Their lack of direct marketing via radio and TV was a handicap. However, > KO felt the product being marketed was a technical one for professionals > and not directed at hobbiests. > > >As you, and many others have stated, DEC had a better mouse > >trap. It almost always worked. The cheese was delicious and > >rarely ran out. But the other reason for the failure of DEC was that > >the DEC mouse trap was so much more expensive to buy that few > >households could afford to buy one. Never mind that in the long > > Mostly prose but not completely true. The cost for a Robin, Rainbow > or PRO was consistant with the time for a competeing system with > similar hardware, software and quality. Of course that was the early 80s. > > Reality was much more complex than the story of mice and traps. > > DEC suffered from a complex product, limited marketing and a vision > that was right for the industry as it was (60s, 70s and early 80s) and > not was it is (for 1987 on). As a result DEC was holding facilities > like PNO, WFO and others complete with trained personell and > nothing for them to do quite literally. At the same time engineering > and marketing groups were sending things overseas for cost reasons. > It didn't take a brain surgeon to see that overhead was way out of line > as there were no layoffs until Palmer appeared. Also over the years > there were what I called "stupid product decisions". > > My favorite is the LA75, $700 printer that TEC sold for $350 at local > stores. Sure DEC improved it, but it was costly. Other were monsters > like the VAX9000, fast, powerful and expensive. It was quickly replaced > by the cheaper 6000 series. Older projects like the PRO, sold maybe > 40,000 units against a plan that was only scaled for 30,000! If that > sounds bad it was declared a failure. Exceeded plan and failed! An > example of short sightedness as to the size of the market. Other > examples are infamous. I got the dubious honor of participating in > just a few. > > DEC was a engineering, a technology and service company. They did > not do a good job at marketing. It was mismanagemant of costs would > end a good run. > > I used to remind people and they thought me nuts. If you want to annoy > the customer ship junk. If you really want to become unforgetable in the > customers eyes, go out of business. The former they can forgive if you > fix it, the latter is unforgiveable as your product is part of their > business. > > DEC came close to unforgiveable, save for Compaq being there. > > Allison > > > From KB9VU at aol.com Sun Apr 9 12:44:11 2000 From: KB9VU at aol.com (KB9VU@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Heath H89 diskette request Message-ID: <78.3b259fa.26221b6b@aol.com> In a message dated 2/6/00 15:25:49 Central Standard Time, west@tseinc.com writes: > > Mike > Thanks for the tip! > > Hey, I haven't got a chance to go through the stuff yet. Tell me, are these > H89/90's or Z89/90's?? Isn't the different an 8080cpu vs. Z80? > Just found this note Jay. All H-89's and Z-89's have the Z80 processor installed. The H-8 computers came with the 8080 installed. The Early H-89's had an ORG 0 problem with CP/M but none of yours have that problem ... they have all be modified. The Z-90 series came with the soft sector card installed from the factory. All H-89's were sold in kit form. The H-88 is another story. These were early all in one computers and did have 8080 CPU's in the beginning. Most H-88 units were upgrades to the H-19 terminals. How are you coming with your treasure trove of old H/Z stuff? I did find some more software and a few other spare parts. They are here whenever you holler. Mike Stover, KB9VU CCA# 404 CRA# 77 MARS AFA3BO Florissant, MO From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 9 13:06:35 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Heath H89 diskette request In-Reply-To: <78.3b259fa.26221b6b@aol.com> from "KB9VU@aol.com" at Apr 9, 0 01:44:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2163 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000409/515cb66e/attachment.ksh From transit at lerctr.org Sun Apr 9 13:24:27 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Apr 2000, George Rachor wrote: > What I remember about the rainbow at the time (I didn't have one) was > having to buy a formatted floppy as the OS as delivered wouldn't format a > raw floppy. I remember that being a very silly decision which third party > folks exploited by offering a formatting utility. > Oh, I remember tricks like that. Remember the Victor computers? You couldn't even buy a copy of DBase II unless Victor sold it to you (in a box that said "Victor Dbase II, by Ashton Tate" or something). We won't get into the TI 99/4A and TI's decision to shut out third party cartridge makers, etc. Or, in the early days of the Macintosh, the difficulty in getting technical manuals for the machine (indeed, at first, to find *any* books much more technical than "How to hold the mouse")... From Technoid at cheta.net Sun Apr 9 13:32:46 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: Panic: Memory Address Alignment In-Reply-To: <38F09E0A.2904344B@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <200004091835.OAA03548@lexington.ioa.net> Success. I just read your message. I had been trying ram for awhile but did not have a good MATCHING set of 4mb rams to install. Friday I got a good set and replaced the last four simms on the main board. The system has been running fine for several hours, runs OpenWindows reliably etc. No more panics etc. Now my last and only problem is that BOTH of my sun keyboards (type 4) work well but BOTH of my optical mice have one led that DON'T LIGHT. Working on this one. Also I don't have a mousepad but I think I can construct one while I wait to find one. I have had difficulties locating pinouts and other tech info on the mouse. Any suggestions? -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From Technoid at cheta.net Sun Apr 9 13:43:05 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: Sun Mouse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200004091843.OAA06979@lexington.ioa.net> My sun mice only have one led lit per mouse. There should be two lit as there is obviously a second led that is not. Any suggestions on repair or replacement of the mouse. The box is perfect! -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Sat Apr 8 10:12:08 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: Nuke Redmond! References: <200004060337.UAA30035@shell1.aracnet.com> <002901bf9f7f$71149320$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <000001bfa254$7d52e380$c79793c3@proteus> Hi, > I really can't understand what all the hostility toward Microsoft >is about.... I can't speak for anyone else, but my hostility towards them stems mainly from a couple of years of having to support systems running their so called operating systems. In 22 years of learning about, and working with, computers I've NEVER come across software which is as unreliable, buggy, slow and bloated as that being produced by M$ since Win'9x came along. Moreover, the level of documentation available for M$ operating systems is, quite simply, a JOKE! I can only conclude that M$ are so ashamed of the mess they've made that they're deliberately making detailed documentation as hard as possible to come by....I know I'd be ashamed if I'd come up with software as unstable as theirs. >....which is enabled by the fact that Microsoft made computers simple >enough to use that the masses could and would use them. I'm sorry, but that is patently untrue. Both Apple and DR got there WAY before M$ did; GEM in particular (before M$ had it crippled) was a real boon, it was compact, simple and FAST. But then again it wasn't pretending to be anything more than a GUI which ran on top of a host OS like CP/M-68K. Here is yet another reason for a lot of the hostility towards M$ - have you not followed events in the industry? M$ have over the years clobbered every competitor in sight with massive lawsuits, claiming copyright and "look/feel" infringements on a concept which they themselves STOLE from Xerox. How many other times have they litigated themselves into the position of "owning" a technology or idea which they've blatantly stolen....and you wonder why they're so hated amongst people in the know? Don't get me wrong, it's good that we have a standard interface to todays desktop machines. It encourages both users and software developers. BUT, M$ near monopoly on the desktop market has stifled competition and innovation. M$ has very little incentive to improve or even release properly debugged software, leaving us with the situation we have now....a bloated, slow, unstable OS and applications - which require ever more ridiculous amounts of RAM, hard drive space and processor speed to even run let alone do anything useful. :-( Also, M$ are getting ever more indulgent and adding crap to the user interface (like "Active Desktop") which simply serves to get in the way and slow the system down further. The fact that they're doing such things is a sure sign that Windows development has stagnated and they're just looking for something to do.... If, for example, IBM hadn't given in so easily with OS/2 we'd have had a much leaner, faster, RELIABLE OS running on our desktop systems years ago - not necessarily OS/2, but then it wouldn't be the crap we're stuck with now either. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Sat Apr 8 10:50:25 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: <200004060337.UAA30035@shell1.aracnet.com><3.0.5.32.20000405225930.0093c640@mail.bluefeathertech.com> <00c101bfa002$c120e340$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <000201bfa254$7f39a4e0$c79793c3@proteus> Hi, > please see embedded comments below Richard, could I ask you to please edit out the irrelevant parts of the messages you reply to? Embedding comments the way you do makes your messages difficult to follow, on numerous occasions I've missed important points you're been making due to this.... >....I just can't convince my self that there's much in common between >MSDOS and CP/M. I only used CP/M on a daily basis for about two years back around 1980/81, but I felt right at home when I started using MS-DOS. However, the point of this message is that if you look into the inner workings of MS-DOS you'll find that the similarities are much more than superficial. In fact, the first releases of DOS (1.00, 1.25) are compatible with CP/M right down to the system calls. This was a deliberate move to make the porting of software from CP/M to MS-DOS as easy as possible. It wasn't until MS-DOS 2 and 3 that they started moving away from this - and is the reason why so much software specifies DOS 3.x as the minimum it needs to run on. > The one thing I see them having copied from the MAC is the reputation >for routine crashes. I'm not sure it's warranted.... Try supporting a site running a couple of hundred machines loaded with M$ software and you'll change your opinion in short order! OTOH I only have two Macs here (a Plus and a Classic II) and I've NEVER known them to crash....unless they were running "M$ Works" at the time anyway.... I realise this is a small sample, but compared to my PC running Win'95 they're rock solid. > I don't think anyone denies that both IE and Netscape were based, >at least in part, on the work done in NCSA MOSAIC, particularly v2.0. Which explains why I despise both Nutscrape and InterNet Exploder....MOSAIC was the first web browser I ever used, on my Classic II around 8(?) years ago. I hated it with a passion then, and I still do. >....They improved on almost everything they "copied" or bought, and >brought it to market.... Personally, I don't consider bloated, buggy, slow software to be an improvement.... >....The fact that some of their practices have come into question >indicates they're not too different from other companies. No, but it does indicate that they've been way too arrogant and pushy....they though they were untouchable, they were wrong. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Sat Apr 8 10:27:27 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: <001501bf9fe5$fd0bcf40$0400c0a8@winbook> <200004070205.VAA16561@garcon.laidbak.com> Message-ID: <000101bfa254$7e57d060$c79793c3@proteus> Hi, > Microsoft should be heralded as the most successful marketing >and advertising firm in the history of computing, but certainly >not an innovator.... Hear, hear, never a truer word said...! TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 9 13:54:08 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: <003101bfa23e$7ed8e940$6e64c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <002e01bfa254$fd46ee60$0400c0a8@winbook> Yes, KO thought the DEC product line should be marketed to professionals. However, at the time, the people to whom a computer product had to be marketed was the hobbyists. It had been amply demonstrated that, no matter how marginally it fit, the personal computer as marketed to hobbyists would "do" in place of the supermini, with the trend toward distributed processing spreading wildly, while no one could replace the 1000 or so PC's that cost what a supermini cost with a supermini. Professionals were, themselves, aware of this surprising reality, and couldn't defend the place of the high-priced supermini. Once Internet connectivity became another major market, the PC architecture killed off the supermini for simple cost reasons. DEC had also had a few marketing flops along the way. Their PC market entries were referred to as "DEC-SHACK" computers at the major Post Office facility where my neighbor works. Their Pro-380 didn't do so well next to PC's costing less than half what they did. The high cost of DEC software licenses didn't help either. About 15 years ago, I was put in the position of demonstrating that a cluster of '386 PC's would outperform a custer of microVAXen in a given environment. What brought down the house was by how much they outdid them. I was not nearly as sure of myself about that comparison as I had been in the previous SCSI/ESDI comparison. In fact, because of the substantially more efficient use of mass storage in the DEC MSCP, I expected that the PC's would be I/O bound to their single hard drive, while the uVAX with a drive pair could operate much faster. There's quite a difference between what they can do and what they will do, I guess. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: allisonp To: Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2000 9:24 AM Subject: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond! > >Since that seems to be the almost the only aspect that matters these > >days, then maybe that one of the reasons why DEC did not succeed. > > > Their lack of direct marketing via radio and TV was a handicap. However, > KO felt the product being marketed was a technical one for professionals > and not directed at hobbiests. > > >As you, and many others have stated, DEC had a better mouse > >trap. It almost always worked. The cheese was delicious and > >rarely ran out. But the other reason for the failure of DEC was that > >the DEC mouse trap was so much more expensive to buy that few > >households could afford to buy one. Never mind that in the long > > Mostly prose but not completely true. The cost for a Robin, Rainbow > or PRO was consistant with the time for a competeing system with > similar hardware, software and quality. Of course that was the early 80s. > > Reality was much more complex than the story of mice and traps. > > DEC suffered from a complex product, limited marketing and a vision > that was right for the industry as it was (60s, 70s and early 80s) and > not was it is (for 1987 on). As a result DEC was holding facilities > like PNO, WFO and others complete with trained personell and > nothing for them to do quite literally. At the same time engineering > and marketing groups were sending things overseas for cost reasons. > It didn't take a brain surgeon to see that overhead was way out of line > as there were no layoffs until Palmer appeared. Also over the years > there were what I called "stupid product decisions". > > My favorite is the LA75, $700 printer that TEC sold for $350 at local > stores. Sure DEC improved it, but it was costly. Other were monsters > like the VAX9000, fast, powerful and expensive. It was quickly replaced > by the cheaper 6000 series. Older projects like the PRO, sold maybe > 40,000 units against a plan that was only scaled for 30,000! If that > sounds bad it was declared a failure. Exceeded plan and failed! An > example of short sightedness as to the size of the market. Other > examples are infamous. I got the dubious honor of participating in > just a few. > > DEC was a engineering, a technology and service company. They did > not do a good job at marketing. It was mismanagemant of costs would > end a good run. > > I used to remind people and they thought me nuts. If you want to annoy > the customer ship junk. If you really want to become unforgetable in the > customers eyes, go out of business. The former they can forgive if you > fix it, the latter is unforgiveable as your product is part of their > business. > > DEC came close to unforgiveable, save for Compaq being there. > > Allison > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 9 13:54:07 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: Sun Mouse In-Reply-To: Sun Mouse (Technoid@cheta.net) References: <200004091843.OAA06979@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <14576.53711.113292.394184@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 9, Technoid@cheta.net wrote: > My sun mice only have one led lit per mouse. There should be two lit as > there is obviously a second led that is not. Any suggestions on repair or > replacement of the mouse. The box is perfect! -- It's normal to see only one LED lit...the other is infrared... -Dave McGuire From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sun Apr 9 14:08:49 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: Sun Mouse In-Reply-To: <14576.53711.113292.394184@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: A trick I learned from someone on the list - look at the mouse with a camcorder to see if the infrared led is lighted. Let me check and see if I have an extra type4 mousepad...I know I have a bunch of type3's around but dunno about the type4... On Sun, 9 Apr 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > On April 9, Technoid@cheta.net wrote: > > My sun mice only have one led lit per mouse. There should be two lit as > > there is obviously a second led that is not. Any suggestions on repair or > > replacement of the mouse. The box is perfect! -- > > It's normal to see only one LED lit...the other is infrared... > > -Dave McGuire > From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun Apr 9 14:30:22 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: Sun Mouse In-Reply-To: <200004091843.OAA06979@lexington.ioa.net> from "Technoid@cheta.net" at "Apr 9, 2000 02:43:05 pm" Message-ID: <200004091930.PAA00599@bg-tc-ppp557.monmouth.com> > > My sun mice only have one led lit per mouse. There should be two lit as > there is obviously a second led that is not. Any suggestions on repair or > replacement of the mouse. The box is perfect! -- > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jeffrey S. Worley > Technical Services > Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. > 1979B Hendersonville Road > Asheville, NC 28803 > 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days > 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax > Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? > Technoid@Cheta.net It's the same on all the Sun Mice I know... I think one's in the infrared range and is not visible. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From chris at mainecoon.com Sun Apr 9 15:24:48 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: Sun Mouse References: <200004091843.OAA06979@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <38F0E710.E2E03064@mainecoon.com> Technoid@cheta.net wrote: > My sun mice only have one led lit per mouse. There should be two lit as > there is obviously a second led that is not. Any suggestions on repair or > replacement of the mouse. The box is perfect! -- It's been a while since I used one, but I seem to recall that what you describe is the case, or more precisely, that the second one *appears* not to work because it emits in the IR portion of the spectrum. I'd find a pad and try it out -- but beware that there are two different styles of pads that were used by Sun. I suspect you want the physically smaller version with the more closely knit lines, as my increasingly enfeebled memory says that the larger ones were only used on the Sun 3's. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sun Apr 9 15:34:02 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <000201bfa254$7f39a4e0$c79793c3@proteus>; from peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk on Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 04:50:25PM +0100 References: <200004060337.UAA30035@shell1.aracnet.com><3.0.5.32.20000405225930.0093c640@mail.bluefeathertech.com> <00c101bfa002$c120e340$0400c0a8@winbook> <000201bfa254$7f39a4e0$c79793c3@proteus> Message-ID: <20000409163402.A2958@dbit.dbit.com> On Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 04:50:25PM +0100, Peter Pachla wrote: > > please see embedded comments below > > Richard, could I ask you to please edit out the irrelevant parts of the > messages you reply to? Embedding comments the way you do makes your messages > difficult to follow, on numerous occasions I've missed important points > you're been making due to this.... Hear hear! I've actually taken to deleting these posts w/o reading them. John Wilson D Bit From cem14 at cornell.edu Sun Apr 9 15:39:24 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: installing OpenVMS References: <38EB561A.43F122B8@cornell.edu> Message-ID: <38F0EA7C.FBED81D@cornell.edu> Hi Roger; Thanks for your reply. Yes, the 1024*area+node was the first thing I found in the online openVMS docs; I guess that my question should have been : given that I want this machine to live in a tcp/ip network and ocasionally have a uVax II boot from it ("MOP" server, right?), do I need to "define" a cluster? and, in case the answer is affirmative, does than mean that I have to make this machine host all or at least some of the required DECnet services? (I guess, directory services and maybe some other stuff?). For the time being I supplied 1025 as SCSSYSTEMID and was able to install OpenVMS, then I installed Decwindows Motif (after I got the hang of the "volume:[dir.subdir]file" system, which I had to figure out myself). In the process I learned about "mount", about registering PAKs, about "autogen" and "sysgen", about POLYCENTER (pcsi$source and stuff) and vmsinstal, about why the "@" is needed in front of those files that end in ".COM" :-) . I have also installed basic, DEC C, Fortran, the extended math library and I am trying to resolve installation issues with Decnet plus before I can go and install tcp/ip . I have not made a backup yet, so I think that I should try to do that first; I do have a TZ30 drive and a bunch of older TK50 tapes. So in the next few days I have to figure out "backup". I also need to learn to use EDIT; I was able to do a small test file to test the fortran compiler (it worked), but I was stumbling at every step... on the other hand, one week ago I knew nothing about VMS. I still don't, of course, but I am losing the fear. I am starting to like this 4000/60. It has the 8 plane/hi res option, but only 16M of memory. I can't wait till I get tcp/ip working so I can copy some of my fortran code and run some benchmarks. Roger Ivie wrote: > I haven't played with DECnet Plus, so I'm not aware of any requirements > it may make on SCSSYSTEMID. > > SCSSYSTEMID is used to differentiate systems in a cluster. If you're not > clustering your machine, you shouldn't have to worry about it too much. > If you are in a cluster, the SCSSYTEMID needs to be related to the > DECnet IV node number. Basically, SCSSYSTEMID = ( DECnet area * 1024 ) + > DECnet node. So if you've told DECnet IV that you're node 51.10, you'll need > to set SCSSYSTEMID to (51 * 1024) + 10 = 52234. -- Carlos Murillo-Sanchez email: cem14@cornell.edu 428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853 From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sun Apr 9 15:43:40 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: Dec at Home (was: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000409092644.0093a580@mail.bluefeathertech.com>; from kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com on Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 09:26:44AM -0700 References: <38F081B5.76A210F6@idirect.com> <3.0.5.32.20000409092644.0093a580@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <20000409164340.B2958@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 09:26:44AM -0700, Bruce Lane wrote: > Judging by the number of Rainbows I once saw at one of the Bay Area swap > meets, and subsequent ones I've seen in various surplus stores, I'd say > yes, quite a few must have been sold. But, were the original owners private individuals? This is definitely a good question, in the early 80s the DEC micros weren't all *that* much more expensive than other comparable machines, there certainly must have been people who could have afforded them if they wanted to. Of course at that time the typical micro user was willing to make do with cassettes, stringy floppies, modified Selectrics etc. just to keep the cost as low as possible. DEC ended up dumping some of their early micros on their own employees. The used market was flooded with VT180s and PDT-11/150s for a while there, as a result. But presumably the employees got special pricing, so it's probably not fair to count them as real live sales to private individuals, since they had special incentives. I remember a while back, someone telling of their experience buying a PDP-8 (/I? /E?) brand new from DEC in the early 70s, for home use. Evidently they had the means, so you'd think DEC would be happy to just fill their order like anyone else's, but apparently they somehow felt that individuals should not be allowed to buy minicomputers so it was a big deal. I get the impression DEC felt the same way about their early micros, not that they would have stopped individuals from buying them but that possibility clearly didn't figure into DEC's marketing. Yet another example of DEC shooting itself in the foot because of a preconceived notion of what business they were in, unlike other companies which are glad to be in whatever business the customers want them to be in. I love stories like Phar Lap, where they make it big on something which was intended only as an accessory for the "real" product, but luckily they kept their yaps shut when the customers fixated on the "wrong" product and raked in the cash anyway. John Wilson D Bit From mtapley at swri.edu Sun Apr 9 16:13:33 2000 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: OT: NASA programming (was: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) Message-ID: Richard Erlacher said, >The conventional wisdom where NASA is concerned, is that they HAD high >standards through the Apollo program and that shortly thereafter, a lot of >people left and apparently took vital talents with them. I've not worked >directly with NASA people in a very long time, and can't agree or disagree >with that view. I'm working at NASA right this very minute. I think it's pretty much impossible to categorize "NASA" as a single monolithic coding entity. Here at GSFC, there's one group running the ground system that is very conscientious and writes good code, with input checks, comments, version control, descriptive variable names, etc., and properly tests the code before running it for real. Then there's another group where their acceptance test run of the code (which I observed) gave a list of internal tests, all saying "passed". But when I asked exactly what each test did, it turned out that *half* of them did nothing other than print up the word "passed". This was flight code, btw, and they had not told us of any plans to upgrade it. It's better now, and fortunately is not critical to the mission in any case. But the bottom line is that even within a single NASA field center, there's a *lot* of variation. - Mark From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 9 16:27:25 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: Sun Mouse In-Reply-To: <200004091843.OAA06979@lexington.ioa.net> from "Technoid@cheta.net" at Apr 9, 0 02:43:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1128 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000409/b3b1c7e3/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Apr 9 14:24:06 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Heath H89 diskette request Message-ID: <007a01bfa265$1c8a1030$6e64c0d0@ajp166> >All H-89's were sold in kit form. The H-88 is another story. These were >early all in one computers and did have 8080 CPU's in the beginning. Most >H-88 units were upgrades to the H-19 terminals. Wrong! the H88 was the diskless version of the h89 and was z80. The h8x were all z80. The basic design was H19 terminal with an additional Z80 based card (with peripherals on ad in cards). All of the H/Z series are related and part of the changes reflects Heath to Zenith transistion. The 88/89/90 were the same base machine with different features namely different memory configs and disk subsystems. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Apr 9 15:02:04 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! Message-ID: <007b01bfa265$1d554f70$6e64c0d0@ajp166> >Yes, KO thought the DEC product line should be marketed to professionals. >However, at the time, the people to whom a computer product had to be >marketed was the hobbyists. It had been amply demonstrated that, no matter >how marginally it fit, the personal computer as marketed to hobbyists would >"do" in place of the supermini, with the trend toward distributed processing PCs were useful in that they were local and flexible. reliability was hard to come by with them. >spreading wildly, while no one could replace the 1000 or so PC's that cost >what a supermini cost with a supermini. Professionals were, themselves, True, by '87 the price/perfomance crossover for the individual user was comming around. >facility where my neighbor works. Their Pro-380 didn't do so well next to >PC's costing less than half what they did. The high cost of DEC software >licenses didn't help either. By time the Pro380 hit, it was too late. Still it had things that PCs were trying to do often not well. The license issue was costly but we are paying for the alternative still. >About 15 years ago, I was put in the position of demonstrating that a >cluster of '386 PC's would outperform a custer of microVAXen in a given >environment. What brought down the house was by how much they outdid them. I did the same thing using z80s. What the vax did better was network, do general applications and groupware. It was (even as a cluster) and still is far easier to manage than 40 W95 PCs and 3 NTservers! I never achieved the generalized performance of a vax even with multiple z80s. >I was not nearly as sure of myself about that comparison as I had been in >the previous SCSI/ESDI comparison. In fact, because of the substantially >more efficient use of mass storage in the DEC MSCP, I expected that the PC's >would be I/O bound to their single hard drive, while the uVAX with a drive >pair could operate much faster. There's quite a difference between what >they can do and what they will do, I guess. I found I could bring a PC to it's knees IO wise faster than a loaded vax and when the PC folded it wasn't graceful... still isn't under MS anything. On the otherhand I've tuned vaxen and there are tricks that PCs still haven't learned. Try running multiple MSPC and mutiple SCSI controllers say two of each with one spindle per... then Qbus is the limiting element. PCs of the era of Qbus were ISA16 and they could never stand two EDSI and two SCSI controlled in the same box, assuming you could get Win3.1 to even install them. Of course the 8-10 mhz bus was the bottleneck and the controllers were not smart at all if they even had DMA. Reminds me of the guy at citicorp in 1990 telling me his 386dx/33 could crush the VAX750 (no racehorse). I wasn't impressed. He stopped making the claim of superiority when I asked when the last reboot was due to a crash. Seems the vax was an unattended server with 1yr 3months uptime and was also used to serve out his local PC database. Comparisons are like many thing statisical... mostly point reference. Allison My $02 on PCs is Linux/FreeBSD/netbsd was the best thing to happen to PC hardware as it was the first OS with some semblence of performance and concept of operational stability. If there is anything worng with PC vs VAX comparison is often the vax compared is nowhere near bleeding edge and the PC is. Then again the VAXs in question had more uptime than the PCs time in production. Also the VAX (running any OS of choice) had better IO buffering than most very highend PCs until the early 90s. From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Apr 9 15:20:59 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: Nuke Redmond! Message-ID: <007c01bfa265$1e46b450$6e64c0d0@ajp166> >being produced by M$ since Win'9x came along. Moreover, the level of >documentation available for M$ operating systems is, quite simply, a JOKE! Actually the documentation is good but also there is tons of it worse than the vax grey wall if you try to get it all in one place. Its also a hell of a task to find things you need among all of that. >If, for example, IBM hadn't given in so easily with OS/2 we'd have had a >much leaner, faster, RELIABLE OS running on our desktop systems years ago - >not necessarily OS/2, but then it wouldn't be the crap we're stuck with now >either. I wonder... Linux is getting bigger by the day and the desktops for it do add weight. Allison From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 9 16:55:18 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: NASA programming (was: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) References: Message-ID: <000901bfa26e$4e1eb200$0400c0a8@winbook> ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Tapley To: Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2000 3:13 PM Subject: OT: NASA programming (was: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) > Richard Erlacher said, > > >The conventional wisdom where NASA is concerned, is that they HAD high > >standards through the Apollo program and that shortly thereafter, a lot of > >people left and apparently took vital talents with them. I've not worked > >directly with NASA people in a very long time, and can't agree or disagree > >with that view. > > I'm working at NASA right this very minute. I think it's pretty much > impossible to categorize "NASA" as a single monolithic coding entity. Here > at GSFC, there's one group running the ground system that is very > conscientious and writes good code, with input checks, comments, version > control, descriptive variable names, etc., and properly tests the code > before running it for real. Then there's another group where their > acceptance test run of the code (which I observed) gave a list of internal > tests, all saying "passed". But when I asked exactly what each test did, it > turned out that *half* of them did nothing other than print up the word > "passed". This was flight code, btw, and they had not told us of any plans > to upgrade it. It's better now, and fortunately is not critical to the > mission in any case. But the bottom line is that even within a single NASA > field center, there's a *lot* of variation. > - Mark > It's hard to come up with generalized remarks that will apply to every part of the organization. However, the attitude that pervades the top mangement trickles down considerably. I was not referring to coding standards alone. It's likely that there were few enough tests in the system you described that someone wanted it looking more like one out of a large number of tests was failing, when really half of the two relevant and valid tests were failing. Perhaps my duty on the "shuttle-return-to-flight" project turned me off on these practices, but I've learned that NASA goes to great lengths to put on the appearance of being thrifty. They are, of course, thrifty when matters of human life are all that's concerned, but when it's about their continued funding, they'll spend a lot just to make smoke. When we turned in our report, our mangement wanted us to rewrite it so it would pass. The managers had to send it out without the signature of any of the engineers, however, because of their practice of ground-ruling-out some of the most dangerous aspects of the shuttle's operating procedures. I understand that most of the '86 hardware has been updated. Perhaps someone with a conscience had a part in that and corrected some of the system flaws. Dick From KB9VU at aol.com Sun Apr 9 17:21:25 2000 From: KB9VU at aol.com (KB9VU@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Heath H89 diskette request Message-ID: <13.3accf41.26225c65@aol.com> You said it better than I could Tony. Mike Stover, KB9VU CCA# 404 CRA# 77 MARS AFA3BO Florissant, MO From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 9 16:39:38 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: from "Charles P. Hobbs" at Apr 9, 0 01:24:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2984 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000409/d8f13b86/attachment.ksh From KB9VU at aol.com Sun Apr 9 17:48:15 2000 From: KB9VU at aol.com (KB9VU@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Heath H89 diskette request Message-ID: <7d.34f91c8.262262af@aol.com> In a message dated 4/9/00 16:55:02 Central Daylight Time, allisonp@world.std.com writes: > >All H-89's were sold in kit form. The H-88 is another story. These were > >early all in one computers and did have 8080 CPU's in the beginning. Most > >H-88 units were upgrades to the H-19 terminals. > > > Wrong! the H88 was the diskless version of the h89 and was z80. The h8x > were all z80. The basic design was H19 terminal with an additional Z80 > based card (with peripherals on ad in cards). > > > All of the H/Z series are related and part of the changes reflects Heath to > Zenith transistion. The 88/89/90 were the same base machine with different > features namely different memory configs and disk subsystems. > > Allison > > Yep, I misspoke. Thinking H-8 and talking H-88. Thanks for the correction. Mike Stover, KB9VU From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sun Apr 9 17:50:51 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Heath H89 diskette request In-Reply-To: <007a01bfa265$1c8a1030$6e64c0d0@ajp166>; from allisonp@world.std.com on Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 03:24:06PM -0400 References: <007a01bfa265$1c8a1030$6e64c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <20000409185051.A3482@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 03:24:06PM -0400, allisonp wrote: > >All H-89's were sold in kit form. The H-88 is another story. These were > >early all in one computers and did have 8080 CPU's in the beginning. Most > >H-88 units were upgrades to the H-19 terminals. > > Wrong! the H88 was the diskless version of the h89 and was z80. The h8x > were all z80. The basic design was H19 terminal with an additional Z80 > based card (with peripherals on ad in cards). Which part is wrong, that it's an upgrade from the H19, or that it's substantially different from the H89? I'm pretty sure I remember Heath selling an H19-to-H89 upgrade kit, but I dunno where the H88 fits in. John Wilson D Bit From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Apr 9 18:12:26 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <000601bfa231$c60421c0$6e64c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: >>> I have to agree with Pete on this one. I am an American and his >>> definitions are correct. Slew also used as a term of flight orientation >>> in Aircraft is all I can add. >> >>Interesting! Will you provide a sample for illustration? > > >I'd be interested. I know pitch, roll and yaw. Though the slew rate for >C150 ailerons is a slow 6 degrees/sec. ;) I don't remember slew, but a slip is when you turn the plane slightly sideways to the path of motion, often to slow it down or account for crosswinds in a landing. Don't forget to point it straight before touchdown though, or it gets "interesting". From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Apr 9 18:26:38 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: Panic: Memory Address Alignment In-Reply-To: Technoid@cheta.net "Re: Panic: Memory Address Alignment" (Apr 9, 14:32) References: <200004091835.OAA03548@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <10004100026.ZM4296@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 9, 14:32, Technoid@cheta.net wrote: > Now my last and only problem is that BOTH of my sun keyboards (type 4) > work well but BOTH of my optical mice have one led that DON'T LIGHT. > Working on this one. Also I don't have a mousepad but I think I can > construct one while I wait to find one. Are you sure about that? One of the LEDs is an infrared LED, with no output in the visible range. > I have had difficulties locating pinouts and other tech info on the mouse. > Any suggestions? ftp://ftp.ececs.uc.edu/pub/sun-faq/Docs/FixingASunMouse Also worth a look is the section on converting a Sun optical mouse to an SGI mouse, in http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/2258/4dfaq.html -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From KB9VU at aol.com Sun Apr 9 18:37:32 2000 From: KB9VU at aol.com (KB9VU@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Heath H89 diskette request Message-ID: In a message dated 4/9/00 13:16:27 Central Daylight Time, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: > As I understand it, an H?? is a Heathkit, and came in kit form. Actually, > the CPU and terminal logic boards were factory assembled/tested, and you > only got to assembly the PSU, video board and case :-(. The Z?? is a > Zenith, and came assembled. You also got to assemble the Serial card and the HS Floppy controller. Mike Stover, KB9VU CCA# 404 CRA# 77 MARS AFA3BO Florissant, MO From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sun Apr 9 18:41:04 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think we missed the nautical definition as well; to turn any cyllindrical or conical piece of timber around it's axis without removing it. Ex: "Slew the mast with the block up." And don't forget that fine British term "slewed" - I think in American that directly translates to "shit-faced." Cheers, Aaron On Sun, 9 Apr 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > >>> I have to agree with Pete on this one. I am an American and his > >>> definitions are correct. Slew also used as a term of flight orientation > >>> in Aircraft is all I can add. > >> > >>Interesting! Will you provide a sample for illustration? > > > > > >I'd be interested. I know pitch, roll and yaw. Though the slew rate for > >C150 ailerons is a slow 6 degrees/sec. ;) > > I don't remember slew, but a slip is when you turn the plane slightly > sideways to the path of motion, often to slow it down or account for > crosswinds in a landing. Don't forget to point it straight before touchdown > though, or it gets "interesting". > > From KB9VU at aol.com Sun Apr 9 18:47:48 2000 From: KB9VU at aol.com (KB9VU@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Heath H89 diskette request Message-ID: In a message dated 4/9/00 13:16:27 Central Daylight Time, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: > An H/Z88 is a cassette-based system. It's a Z19 terminal with a Z80 CPU > board and a cassette interface. I don't know if the 3-port serial board > came in this machine or not. Although it's based on the Z19 terminal, > many machines were sold as H88 computers, etc, and were not > field-upgraded Z19s (although that was possible). The H-19 to H-88 kits changed later to H-19 to H-89 kits. I built both. After the Floppy controller (Hard Sector) was released, the upgrade kits could be ordered with the Floppy interface. Both my H-19 to H-88 kits came with the serial card. Not sure when the H-88 disappeared from the line up though. The last H-89 I built was an "A". The CPU and TLB's came with RFI shields on them. I still have that one. Runs a 4 MHz Z-80, Magnolia CP/M 2.2 and 3.0, Magnolia 128K RAM drive, Magnolia 5"/8" floppy Controller and the Magnolia Serial/SASI board. It still is a nice machine. Power supply upgrades were also included. Mike Stover, KB9VU CCA# 404 CRA# 77 MARS AFA3BO Florissant, MO From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 9 18:53:39 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Heath H89 diskette request In-Reply-To: <20000409185051.A3482@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at Apr 9, 0 06:50:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2693 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000410/e354f64d/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Apr 9 17:11:25 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: Dec at Home (was: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond! Message-ID: <009601bfa27e$5f770d80$6e64c0d0@ajp166> >DEC ended up dumping some of their early micros on their own employees. >The used market was flooded with VT180s and PDT-11/150s for a while there, >as a result. But presumably the employees got special pricing, so it's >probably not fair to count them as real live sales to private individuals, >since they had special incentives. They were initally available with incentives, later they were cheap at end of product and then when internal use was phased out then were retired and often given away. Got my my systems by the later means while there. Allison From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Apr 9 20:21:14 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: Find Newspapers Message-ID: <00e901bfa28b$1125b160$58dab0d0@default> Today I got a call from a man in Virginia and a e-mail from another who saw a reprint of the article done by the local Pioneer Press here in the twin cities. Has anyone on the list see the article on collecting classic ? If so can you e-mail me the names of the papers. Thanks John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000409/538f6809/attachment.html From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Apr 9 20:11:23 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <200004080448.XAA00483@garcon.laidbak.com> (nerdware@laidbak.com) References: <000d01bfa0ef$646a9e00$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 07, 2000 06:14:18 PM <200004080448.XAA00483@garcon.laidbak.com> Message-ID: <20000410011123.2283.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Paul Braun" wrote: > And IBM apparently found enough code lifted directly from CP/M to > justify an $800,000 settlement with Kildall to keep him from suing > them. Very interesting. I've heard a lot of claims that Tim copied actual code from CP/M, including mentions of intact copyright notices (which I couldn't find when I examined an IBM DOS 1.0 diskette), but I've never before heard about a settlement. Do you have any further references or info? I'd love to learn more about this. The thing that I find amazing about the idea that Tim might have copied DR code is that CP/M is so small and simple that I wouldn't expect it to be worth the effort to do a binary translation of it, especially if you plan to replace the file system code (which is the bulk of the BDOS) anyhow. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Apr 9 20:13:39 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: (message from Gary Hildebrand on Sat, 08 Apr 2000 11:43:36 -0600) References: Message-ID: <20000410011339.2304.qmail@brouhaha.com> Gary Hildebrand wrote: > CP/M I seem to remember only got to 2.2. CP/M got to 3.something. But it wasn't nearly as popular as 2.2 had been. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Apr 9 20:17:53 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: no chars on uVAX console In-Reply-To: <00a701bfa1a6$50850080$030101ac@boll.casema.net> (sipke@wxs.nl) References: <00c401bfa195$e34e1ed0$7164c0d0@ajp166> <00a701bfa1a6$50850080$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <20000410011753.2320.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Sipke de Wal" wrote: > I Thought on the BA123-bus the first 4 quad slots had an AB/CD > configuration but I'll try this one. Yes. The first four slots of a BA123 are Q/CD, so you should'nt put dual-wide Qbus cards in the CD part. In a BA23, only the first three slots are Q/CD. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Apr 9 20:30:10 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:40 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: (transit@lerctr.org) References: Message-ID: <20000410013010.2377.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)" wrote: > Or, in the early days of the Macintosh, the > difficulty in getting technical manuals for the machine (indeed, at first, > to find *any* books much more technical than "How to hold the mouse")... I strongly disagree. Apple did everything they could to court developers for the Macintosh. If there wasn't a cheap book on programming the Macintosh in the stores then, it was only because there was such a large amount of technical information needed, and it wasn't yet edited into a book suited for mass-market publication. It was *NOT* because Apple was trying to restrict software development to an annointed few; they'd tried that route on the Apple /// and failed horribly. The day after the Macintosh was introduced, I called Apple, and they said that for $150 I could join the Macintosh developer program and get a preliminary copy of Inside Macintosh in loose-leaf form. I did that, received the manuals quickly, and they had everything I needed to know to write Mac software. New updates arrived every month or so. I wish I'd kept the stuff. Later they sent developers the "phone book" edition. I think it was sometime in mid-1985 that Addison Wesley published the "final" Inside Macintosh as three paperback volumes or one hardcover. From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Apr 9 18:59:51 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! Message-ID: <00c201bfa294$5b4325d0$6e64c0d0@ajp166> >I don't remember slew, but a slip is when you turn the plane slightly >sideways to the path of motion, often to slow it down or account for >crosswinds in a landing. Don't forget to point it straight before touchdown >though, or it gets "interesting". Slip is applied yaw. I've done a few lanings in high wind demonstrating the application of yaw. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Apr 9 18:57:27 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Heath H89 diskette request Message-ID: <00c101bfa294$5a6bb190$6e64c0d0@ajp166> >On Sun, Apr 09, 2000 at 03:24:06PM -0400, allisonp wrote: >> >All H-89's were sold in kit form. The H-88 is another story. These were >> >early all in one computers and did have 8080 CPU's in the beginning. Most >> >H-88 units were upgrades to the H-19 terminals. >> >> Wrong! the H88 was the diskless version of the h89 and was z80. The h8x >> were all z80. The basic design was H19 terminal with an additional Z80 >> based card (with peripherals on ad in cards). > >Which part is wrong, that it's an upgrade from the H19, or that it's >substantially different from the H89? I'm pretty sure I remember Heath >selling an H19-to-H89 upgrade kit, but I dunno where the H88 fits in. That there was an 8080 in some versions. The H8 was the 8080 machine. There was an h19 to h88/89/90 upgrade and that was the cpu, PS and IO. The base H8x was a h19 with those added items. In many ways it was not unlike a Vt180 approach. Aquired two H89s and gave them away. Kept the H19 I built in 1978. Allison From chris at mainecoon.com Sun Apr 9 23:13:53 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: OT: Slips (was Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) References: <00c201bfa294$5b4325d0$6e64c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <38F15501.A6A74F67@mainecoon.com> allisonp wrote: > Slip is applied yaw. I've done a few lanings in high wind demonstrating the > application of yaw. Slips as applied to crosswind landings are more than simply dialing in yaw; you dial in roll to compensate for drift and dial in opposite yaw to keep the logitudinal access aligned with the direction of travel of the aircraft -- in other words you cross control it. Slips as applied for altitude loss also require the use of cross controls, otherwise there's a tendency to impose large aerodynamic loads for no particularly good reason and the possibility in some high-wing aircraft of partially blanking the elevator resulting in an uncommanded pitch-up moment if done with inappropriate flap settings. Oh, and the roll rate (I assume that's what was ment in a prior post) of A C150 is much better than 6 deg/sec -- and they're good spin trainers, too (you have to work to get them to stay in a spin) -- as long as they don't have a STOL kit installed, a Texas Taildragger O-320/360 conversion or gyro instruments that you don't want to trash installed. Chris Commercial-ASMEL/Instrument, AGI, CFII-in-training :-) -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From jhfine at idirect.com Mon Apr 10 00:20:52 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: Unknown DEC stuff and a few unknown ICs References: <200004050700.JAA15798@dali18.mchp.siemens.de> Message-ID: <38F164B3.38ED5839@idirect.com> >Emanuel_Stiebler/C_Niedermeier wrote: > >Also, I have these qbus boards from Sky Computer > >that I have no clue what they are; they're all quad height (assuming that > >means they have four connectors). They are Skywar-Q-A-03, Skywar-Q-B-03, and > >Skydpmem-Q-02. Jerome Fine replies: I missed the original post. Sky made a co-processor called a SKYMNK about 15 years ago for the Qbus consisting of two quad Qbus boards, but I never knew the numbers. These boards were able to do complex calculations such as an FFT using both on board memory as well as the memory of the Qbus. In general, the SKYMNK was designed to be used in a PDP-11 environment. On the other hand, in thinking about the products that Sky made, I also seem to remember a "Warrior" product. From the board names, it seems more likely that "Skywar" stands for that product and the "Q" is for the Qbus. "A/B" would seem to be a two board set and "03" a revision number. Total speculation on my part in this paragraph. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Apr 10 02:46:12 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: Slips (was Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) References: <00c201bfa294$5b4325d0$6e64c0d0@ajp166> <38F15501.A6A74F67@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <001b01bfa2c0$d88245e0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Kennedy" To: Sent: Monday, April 10, 2000 1:43 PM Subject: OT: Slips (was Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) > Oh, and the roll rate (I assume that's what was ment in a prior post) > of A C150 is much better than 6 deg/sec -- and they're good spin > trainers, too (you have to work to get them to stay in a spin> Chris > Commercial-ASMEL/Instrument, AGI, CFII-in-training :-) They also are good for teaching the reason behind the philosophy of using rudder and not aileron to pick up a dropped wing when stalling out of a (say) climbing turn. Unlike your generic PA-28 Cherokees and some others they WILL try and snap savagely if you try. I have chatted with some very startled Piper trained pilots in the process of endorsement for Cessnas after they had a first hand demonstration of this in a C150, which will try and snap-roll inverted if provoked in this manner. And it's a LOT quicker than 6 deg/sec in a snap, probably closer to 40. I learnt to fly in a C150 and moved onto Pipers later, I'm glad it was that way around. I never got used to the flaps in a Cherokee as opposed to the ones in a Cessna though, the first time I used flaps in a PA28-180 I could barely feel the effect and thought they weren't working properly. (C150's have flaps like a garage door, and there is a distinct pitch down & deceleration when you crank them out.) Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ: 1970476 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Apr 10 04:06:52 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: 386 upgrade cpus? In-Reply-To: References: <000601bfa231$c60421c0$6e64c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: Few things jazz me more than finding an upgrade processor in an old hulk, but some of these cpus are not clear to me what they are. By the 486 era things make sense, and I have Kingston 133, Evergreen, and other fast 486 upgrades, but could someone explain a bit what it is I should be looking for as a 386 upgrade? BTW in the massive "weird" catagory that dominates my storage I have about a dozen 286 upgrades for earlier cpus. Yow, spank that old system with the power of a 10 mhz 286. ;) Maybe I will do a ebay package with some of the old internal modems. From mrbill at mrbill.net Mon Apr 10 05:07:58 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: HP 9000/800 H20 Message-ID: <20000410050758.Q220@mrbill.net> I have no idea how old this is (so I dont know about the 10-year rule), so if I'm mistaken, someone slap me. Anyway, I picked this up tonight.. Anyone with any clue about HP equipment know how much this is worth? Its big and hefty, currently has HP-UX 11.0 loaded (altho I have full media and licenses for 10.20, 10.10, and 10.0). Its just TOO BIG to use as a home machine or server, and I'm looking to either sell it, or swap it straight-out for a decently configured 9000/712 or 9000/715-series desktop box. If anybody's interested at all, let me know. Thanks. Bill HP 9000/800 Model H20 Serial # 3537A86223 Product # A2366A Internal SCSI Devices: C2477SZ serial # 3352E95739 A3087A serial # 5075A81767 A3087A serial # 5075A04158 Slot contents (in the back): 1: "8 CHAN SYNC MUX" (I dont have the cable or the "expander box" that goes with this) 7/8: 28696-60001 HP-PB 16 Bit Differential SCSI D13/B14: SCSI / CONSOLE / LAN The system also has 2 64mb memory cards and 4 32mb memory cards installed, for a grand total of 256mb RAM. It currently has HP-UX B.11.00 installed, and has full licenses (on paper even) and CD-ROM media for HP-UX 10.0, 10.10, and 10.20. -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Mon Apr 10 07:07:31 2000 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: HP 9000/800 H20 In-Reply-To: <20000410050758.Q220@mrbill.net> References: <20000410050758.Q220@mrbill.net> Message-ID: I would say that it is around 10 years old (90,91,92 era). (I work with several hp systems..including an 827 which is basically an H20). -Bob >I have no idea how old this is (so I dont know about the 10-year >rule), so if I'm mistaken, someone slap me. > >Anyway, I picked this up tonight.. Anyone with any clue about HP >equipment know how much this is worth? Its big and hefty, currently >has HP-UX 11.0 loaded (altho I have full media and licenses for 10.20, >10.10, and 10.0). Its just TOO BIG to use as a home machine or server, >and I'm looking to either sell it, or swap it straight-out for a decently >configured 9000/712 or 9000/715-series desktop box. If anybody's >interested at all, let me know. > >Thanks. > >Bill > >HP 9000/800 Model H20 >Serial # 3537A86223 >Product # A2366A >Internal SCSI Devices: > C2477SZ > serial # 3352E95739 > A3087A > serial # 5075A81767 > A3087A > serial # 5075A04158 >Slot contents (in the back): >1: "8 CHAN SYNC MUX" (I dont have the cable or the "expander box" that goes > with this) >7/8: 28696-60001 HP-PB 16 Bit Differential SCSI >D13/B14: SCSI / CONSOLE / LAN >The system also has 2 64mb memory cards and 4 32mb memory cards installed, >for a grand total of 256mb RAM. It currently has HP-UX B.11.00 installed, >and has full licenses (on paper even) and CD-ROM media for HP-UX 10.0, 10.10, >and 10.20. > >-- >+--------------------+-------------------+ >| Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | >+--------------------+-------------------+ >| mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | >+--------------------+-------------------+ Bob Brown Saved by grace Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 10 08:52:22 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: OT: Slips (was Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) In-Reply-To: <38F15501.A6A74F67@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: > allisonp wrote: > > > Slip is applied yaw. I've done a few lanings in high wind demonstrating the > > application of yaw. > > Slips as applied to crosswind landings are more than simply dialing in yaw; > you dial in roll to compensate for drift and dial in opposite yaw to keep the > logitudinal access aligned with the direction of travel of the aircraft -- As a pilot I figured going into gory detail was excess. > in other words you cross control it. Slips as applied for altitude loss > also require the use of cross controls, otherwise there's a tendency to > impose large aerodynamic loads for no particularly good reason and the > possibility in some high-wing aircraft of partially blanking the > elevator resulting in an uncommanded pitch-up moment if done with > inappropriate flap settings. As a C150 driver and verious gliders, your wrong. Slips allow application of the airframe to get drag, thsi is very useful with some planes that have marginal flaps (or none at all). Even with flaps a slip can be use for additional drag or forward visibility enhancement. > Oh, and the roll rate (I assume that's what was ment in a prior post) > of A C150 is much better than 6 deg/sec -- and they're good spin > trainers, too (you have to work to get them to stay in a spin) -- as > long as they don't have a STOL kit installed, a Texas Taildragger > O-320/360 conversion or gyro instruments that you don't want to > trash installed. C150 roll rate is not very fast and while the 6/sec degree number is likely low i've barrel rolled one and they are slooowwww. Nothing like a clipped wing cub or Citabria. As to spins, i've done a few, after all it's the only legal acro for a C150 commuter of any significant degree. Yes it does roll out easily. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 10 08:58:55 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: Slips (was Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) In-Reply-To: <001b01bfa2c0$d88245e0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: > Unlike your generic PA-28 Cherokees and some others they WILL try and > snap > savagely if you try. I have chatted with some very startled Piper I've found that is a good indicator of rigging. generally they snap soft. Mine is a really puppy and the only way to get it to snap sharply is a dirty accelerated stall near gross. Then again the I know the rigging is good. It also rolls nice. ;) > demonstration of this > in a C150, which will try and snap-roll inverted if provoked in this > manner. It can and will be nasty if the washout is wrong. > weren't working properly. (C150's have flaps like a garage door, and > there is a distinct > pitch down & deceleration when you crank them out.) Yep! Keeps you sharp too. Flew PA28s, nice ride, lousy acro. ;) Allison From technoid at cheta.net Mon Apr 10 08:04:16 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: Apple Workgroup Server 95 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200004101407.KAA22000@lexington.ioa.net> My friend Shane will be subscribing to the group when he gets home but please CC any replies to: SOWENBY@mindspring.com He got an Apple Mac Workgroup Server 95 from Computer Parts Barn a couple of weeks ago. He would like to reinstall the OS from scratch but is having trouble. He goes through partitioning and it doesn't really change the contents of the drive at all. 48mb ram id 0 is a 250mb scsi id1 is a 1.2g scsi cd150 cdrom (external) MacOS v 7.1 Apple unix version A/UX 3.1 Thanks guys and gals -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From oliv555 at arrl.net Mon Apr 10 09:11:44 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: SUN 3/50 Message-ID: <38F1E120.9CEAFD30@arrl.net> Got one of these as a freebie when I picked up a bunch of hardware I won (bought) at a university auction. Not being familiar with Sun products, can anyone tell me which flavor(s) of unix I might be able to load. Its currently a diskless pizza box, extra large. What kind of performance can I expect from this old thing... slow ?.... superslow.. ? Any links to related Sun sites ........ etc.. Thanks Nick From technoid at cheta.net Mon Apr 10 08:35:05 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: Optical Mouse Pad In-Reply-To: <38F0E710.E2E03064@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <200004101436.KAA01891@lexington.ioa.net> Uh, Duh. Ok, I wondered if it was an IR led but now I know it is and that it is working because I can get the mouse to move a teeny bit by running it over dense text. I think I have to make a mousepad. Any ideas on the distance between lines etc? -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From kla at helios.augustana.edu Mon Apr 10 09:38:36 2000 From: kla at helios.augustana.edu (Kevin L. Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: OT: Apple Mac LC II Message-ID: This is off-topic, so please reply directly. Thanks. My son was just given a Mac LC II without a monitor, but including a keyboard and mouse. I am not a Mac user or owner (until now), so I have no idea whatsoever to be looking for in a replacement monitor. Is the LC II a B&W or Color computer (I don't have the foggiest :-)? Help. The computer has a 160MB hard drive, a floppy drive, and what appears to be one memory SIMM (with four big chips on it, so I'm guessing 4MB at most). Cheers. Kevin * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Kevin L. Anderson Ph.D., Geography Department, Augustana College Rock Island, Illinois 61201-2296, USA phone: (309) 794-7325 e-mail: kla@helios.augustana.edu -or- gganderson@augustana.edu * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Opinions expressed here are my own and do not represent the administration of Augustana College. From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Apr 10 09:42:37 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: SUN 3/50 In-Reply-To: <38F1E120.9CEAFD30@arrl.net> Message-ID: http://www.sunhelp.org http://sun3arc.krupp.net/ Basically, it's a 15mhz 68020 with 4megs ram (stock). It's got a mono frame buffer, scsi, ethernet built in. No power/space for internal storage devices. I've got one w/12megs ram and it makes a pretty good mono X terminal. I think the last OS supported is SunOS 4.1. Cheers, Aaron On Mon, 10 Apr 2000, Nick Oliviero wrote: > Got one of these as a freebie when I picked up a > bunch of hardware I won (bought) at a university > auction. > > Not being familiar with Sun products, can anyone > tell me which flavor(s) of unix I might be able > to load. Its currently a diskless pizza box, extra > large. What kind of performance can I expect from > this old thing... slow ?.... superslow.. ? > > Any links to related Sun sites ........ etc.. > > Thanks Nick > From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Apr 10 10:04:42 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: OT: Apple Mac LC II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It's a 16mhz 68030 machine, color (up to 256 colors with 256k vram simm, up to 32,000 colors with 512k vram simm). There's 4 megs of ram onboard and it has a PDS slot for ethernet/etc cards. For more info, search the Apple TIL at http://til.info.apple.com (go to the archive section). You can get a mac-pc video adapter (i.e. from Griffin Technology), but it would probably be cheaper to find a mac 12" RGB used somewhere...the adapters can run up to $30. Actually, now that I think about it, I have a switchless NEC adapter that would probably work for you, if you want it... Cheers, Aaron On Mon, 10 Apr 2000, Kevin L. Anderson wrote: > This is off-topic, so please reply directly. Thanks. > > My son was just given a Mac LC II without a monitor, but > including a keyboard and mouse. I am not a Mac user or > owner (until now), so I have no idea whatsoever to be looking > for in a replacement monitor. Is the LC II a B&W or Color > computer (I don't have the foggiest :-)? Help. > > The computer has a 160MB hard drive, a floppy drive, and what > appears to be one memory SIMM (with four big chips on it, so > I'm guessing 4MB at most). > > Cheers. Kevin > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > Kevin L. Anderson Ph.D., Geography Department, Augustana College > Rock Island, Illinois 61201-2296, USA phone: (309) 794-7325 > e-mail: kla@helios.augustana.edu -or- gganderson@augustana.edu > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > Opinions expressed here are my own and do not represent > the administration of Augustana College. > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 10 10:07:02 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: SUN 3/50 In-Reply-To: Re: SUN 3/50 (Aaron Christopher Finney) References: <38F1E120.9CEAFD30@arrl.net> Message-ID: <14577.60950.113388.204774@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 10, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > Basically, it's a 15mhz 68020 with 4megs ram (stock). It's got a mono > frame buffer, scsi, ethernet built in. No power/space for internal storage > devices. I've got one w/12megs ram and it makes a pretty good mono X > terminal. 4mb is the max unless you have one of those nifty 3rd party memory expansion daughterboards. I've got one or two of them somewhere if anyone is really dying for one. They're pretty swappy at 4mb. > I think the last OS supported is SunOS 4.1. 4.1.1_U1 -Dave McGuire From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 10 10:16:27 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: 386 upgrade cpus? References: <000601bfa231$c60421c0$6e64c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <000b01bfa2ff$c0d1d340$0400c0a8@winbook> The upgrades for the '386 types were typically 486DLC thingies that claimed to be a '486 but looked like and fit in the place of a '386. They also had no internal math processor. The '286's weren't so easily upgraded, but there were 20 and 25 MHz CMOS (Harris) versions that were pretty popular. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ford To: Sent: Monday, April 10, 2000 3:06 AM Subject: 386 upgrade cpus? > Few things jazz me more than finding an upgrade processor in an old hulk, > but some of these cpus are not clear to me what they are. By the 486 era > things make sense, and I have Kingston 133, Evergreen, and other fast 486 > upgrades, but could someone explain a bit what it is I should be looking > for as a 386 upgrade? > > BTW in the massive "weird" catagory that dominates my storage I have about > a dozen 286 upgrades for earlier cpus. Yow, spank that old system with the > power of a 10 mhz 286. ;) Maybe I will do a ebay package with some of the > old internal modems. > > From technoid at cheta.net Mon Apr 10 09:14:48 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: OT: Apple Mac LC II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200004101520.LAA21024@lexington.ioa.net> You can use a VGA monitor with an adapter. You can get the adapter for $12.00 from MacMall. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Apr 10 10:34:04 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: OT: Slips (was Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) References: Message-ID: <38F1F46C.4E0661B6@mainecoon.com> allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > As a pilot I figured going into gory detail was excess. Perhaps, save for the fact that I can use yaw to induce skid just as easily as slip. > As a C150 driver and verious gliders, your wrong. Slips allow application > of the airframe to get drag, thsi is very useful with some planes that > have marginal flaps (or none at all). Wrong about what? I wrote: > > in other words you cross control it. Slips as applied for altitude loss > > also require the use of cross controls, otherwise there's a tendency to > > impose large aerodynamic loads for no particularly good reason and the > > possibility in some high-wing aircraft of partially blanking the > > elevator resulting in an uncommanded pitch-up moment if done with > > inappropriate flap settings. > Quoting from FAA AC 61-21A, page 103: "Assuming that the airplane is originally in straight flight, the wing on the side towards which the slip is to be made should be lowered by use of ailerons. Simultaneously, the airplane's nose must be yawed in the opposite direction by applying opposite rudder..." That is, cross controlled. You *can* just step on the rudder, but what you'll get is a skidding turn into the rudder, which, due to the stability of most airplanes, will eventually generate bank in the opposite direction, stopping the turn from developing further. > Even with flaps a slip can be use > for additional drag or forward visibility enhancement. Again, from the same advisory circular (same page, even): "Note: Forward slips with wing flaps extended should not be done in airplanes wherin the manufacturer's instructions prohibit such operation". Having just stuck my head in a 150B, 182Q and 210L each has placards forbidding slips in conjunction with full flaps. For improved forward visibility during descent flaps are generally preferred to slips, as most light airplanes have simple plain flaps which cause the greatest uncommanding (nose-down) pitching moment when applied. At least that's the current line of jive from the FAA and what we're required to teach. > C150 roll rate is not very fast and while the 6/sec degree number is > likely low i've barrel rolled one and they are slooowwww. Nothing like a > clipped wing cub or Citabria. Nor the 300 degrees/sec you get out of a T-28 -- but still fast enough to get three rolls before running out of energy and having to trade off altitude to maintain airspeed. :-) > As to spins, i've done a few, after all it's the only legal acro for > a C150 commuter of any significant degree. Yes it does roll out easily. Legal how? It's permitted in any aircraft certificated for and operated in utility category and not otherwise placarded against. It's listed as specifically approved in every 150 or 152 AFM I've pulled off the shelf this morning. The only issue I've ever had doing spins in a 150 is that power-off spin entries to the right don't work all that well -- it seems to want to mush into a spiral. Blipping the throttle once full rudder has been mashed in generally gets it to roll over, but it's still lazy -- but a good way to introduce the maneuver, as opposed to a power-on snap entry which generally scares the hell out of students. :-( Cheers, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 []= From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Apr 10 10:47:59 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: Slips (was Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) References: <00c201bfa294$5b4325d0$6e64c0d0@ajp166> <38F15501.A6A74F67@mainecoon.com> <001b01bfa2c0$d88245e0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: <38F1F7AF.B497553E@mainecoon.com> Geoff Roberts wrote: > They also are good for teaching the reason behind the philosophy of > using rudder and > not aileron to pick up a dropped wing when stalling out of a (say) > climbing turn. > Unlike your generic PA-28 Cherokees and some others they WILL try and > snap > savagely if you try. Certainly compared to a PA28. It's *really* difficult to get a Cherokee uncoordinated in a turn because of it's asymmetic ailerons, but as a consequence what you say is very true; people who do their primary training in Cherokees tend to have very lazy feet. For those people what I do is have them fly the 150 with the elevator in their lap, sitting on their hands and using their feet to pick up the wing in a sort of falling-leaf maneuver. I prefer that to the "see what happens if you're naughty" approach of flying into a spin, mostly because I neve know when I'm gonna have to club them with the clipboard to get them to give up the airplane. > I have chatted with some very startled Piper > trained pilots in the > process of endorsement for Cessnas after they had a first hand > demonstration of this > in a C150, which will try and snap-roll inverted if provoked in this > manner. Yeah, although there's a literally a few seconds there where, even though you're at the incipient point of spin, you can drag the 150 out -- a push with full opposite rudder and aileron works, or you can just lower the nose and fly out the other side. I just tried a series of climbing turn and cross control stalls in a 150B and found that I had maybe a second power-on, two seconds power off to do something about the developing spin -- although once it did develop it wound up pretty quickly :-) > And it's a LOT quicker than 6 deg/sec in a snap, probably closer to 40. > I learnt to fly in a C150 and moved onto Pipers later, I'm glad it was > that way around. > I never got used to the flaps in a Cherokee as opposed to the ones in a > Cessna though, > the first time I used flaps in a PA28-180 I could barely feel the effect > and thought they > weren't working properly. (C150's have flaps like a garage door, and > there is a distinct > pitch down & deceleration when you crank them out.) I want to say it's 40 degrees vs. 25 degrees max flaps, C150 vs. PA28, bud I'd have to check. The Cherokee's flaps aren't a great way to get drag, but they do help with lift, which is a good thing given that the PA28 wants to fall out of the sky and lands fast, as opposed to the 150 which will drift all the way into the next county and lands almost as slow as a Cub :-) Cheers, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon Apr 10 11:20:49 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: Optical Mouse Pad In-Reply-To: <200004101436.KAA01891@lexington.ioa.net> from "technoid@cheta.net" at "Apr 10, 2000 09:35:05 am" Message-ID: <200004101620.MAA03004@bg-tc-ppp31.monmouth.com> > Uh, Duh. Ok, I wondered if it was an IR led but now I know it is and that > it is working because I can get the mouse to move a teeny bit by running > it over dense text. > > I think I have to make a mousepad. Any ideas on the distance between > lines etc? -- Is this a Sun4 mouse or Sun3. I can send you a Sun4 mousepad. Bill From rivie at teraglobal.com Mon Apr 10 11:19:12 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: installing OpenVMS In-Reply-To: <38F0EA7C.FBED81D@cornell.edu> References: <38EB561A.43F122B8@cornell.edu> <38F0EA7C.FBED81D@cornell.edu> Message-ID: >Hi Roger; > >Thanks for your reply. Yes, the 1024*area+node was the first >thing I found in the online openVMS docs; I guess that my question >should have been : given that I want this machine to live in >a tcp/ip network and ocasionally have a uVax II boot from it >("MOP" server, right?), do I need to "define" a cluster? No, you don't need to define a cluster just to boot a remote node. There are a few commands you'll need to issue to NCP to enable it to boot a remote node; I don't recall the commands offhand, but I can look into it. What are you planning on running on the MicroVAX II? If you're going to run VMS on it and boot it from the 4000/60, you will need to build a cluster. > and, >in case the answer is affirmative, does than mean that I have >to make this machine host all or at least some of the required >DECnet services? (I guess, directory services and maybe some other >stuff?). I haven't the foggiest about DECnet Plus. I've always used DECnet Phase IV. >I am starting to like this 4000/60. It has the 8 plane/hi res >option, but only 16M of memory. I can't wait till I get tcp/ip >working so I can copy some of my fortran code and run some >benchmarks. The 4000/60 is one of my favorite machines. Mine only has the 8MB on the motherboard, though. I use it headless with a VT220 as the console. -- Roger Ivie TeraGlobal Communications Corporation 1750 North Research Park Way North Logan, UT 84341 Phone: (435)787-0555 Fax: (435)787-0516 From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Mon Apr 10 11:49:28 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: Optical Mouse Pad In-Reply-To: <200004101620.MAA03004@bg-tc-ppp31.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <000d01bfa30c$bccd00f0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> > Uh, Duh. Ok, I wondered if it was an IR led but now I know it is and that > it is working because I can get the mouse to move a teeny bit by running > it over dense text. FWIW I used to get an SGI optimouse to move not too shabbily by holding it up near the screen and tilting it in and out of the plane. Then rotate it 90deg. to work in the other axis and 180deg to get the other direction. (When you're Real-Real desperate) JEA From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 10 13:11:40 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: HP 3000/925LX available in Hillsboro, Oregon Message-ID: I sent this to the list Saturday, but as far as I can tell it never arrived. Figured I should resend it in case anyone is interested. Zane I stopped in to the Hillsboro Wacky Willies about an hour ago. They had a HP 3000/925LX in a rack with I believe a 9-Track tape drive, a pallet of terminals with I believe a small rack, and several boxes of MPE manuals. I didn't have any time to ask about it, as I didn't even have time to stop in and look :^) Plus I don't know how complete it might be or how much they want for any of it. I also don't know if they had more to the system or not. These days there is a large part of the store that customers can't get into. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 10 13:01:47 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <20000410013010.2377.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 10, 0 01:30:10 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2209 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000410/94c17721/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 10 13:05:26 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: 386 upgrade cpus? In-Reply-To: <000b01bfa2ff$c0d1d340$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 10, 0 09:16:27 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 792 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000410/51cd1f5a/attachment.ksh From ss at allegro.com Mon Apr 10 14:04:55 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: HP 9000/800 H20 In-Reply-To: <20000410050758.Q220@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <200004101906.MAA21880@opus.allegro.com> An HP 9000/H20 is a 48 MHz PA-RISC system, also known as an 827. It's got a very small cache (64 KB data, 64 KB code). I'd guess it's valued in the $1000 to $2000 range. I picked up an E55 (twice as fast) for $400 in 1999...but that was a really good price. OTOH, if you want to part it out, I'd be interested in some of the memory for an HP 3000/927 I just got. Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From ss at allegro.com Mon Apr 10 14:13:03 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: HP 3000/925LX available in Hillsboro, Oregon In-Reply-To: <"v04020a1fb5159e47d9da(a)(091)192.168.1.5(093)*"@MHS> Message-ID: <200004101914.MAA21985@opus.allegro.com> Re: > I stopped in to the Hillsboro Wacky Willies about an hour ago. They had a Where's Hillsboro? (city, state?) > HP 3000/925LX in a rack with I believe a 9-Track tape drive, a pallet of > terminals with I believe a small rack, and several boxes of MPE manuals. An HP 3000/925LX is a PA-RISC system (probably 1.0 architecture), with a clock of about 10 MHz. It's a CIO-based I/O architecture, so the PuffinGroup Linux port will *not* run on it, nor will MPE/iX 6.5 (the last release that will run on it is MPE/iX 6.0). It's one of the three or four slowest PA-RISC systems ever built. Stan Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From sipke at wxs.nl Mon Apr 10 13:59:28 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: 386 upgrade cpus? References: <000601bfa231$c60421c0$6e64c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <007701bfa31e$e655eb00$030101ac@boll.casema.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ford > Few things jazz me more than finding an upgrade processor in an old hulk, > but some of these cpus are not clear to me what they are. By the 486 era > things make sense, and I have Kingston 133, Evergreen, and other fast 486 > upgrades, but could someone explain a bit what it is I should be looking > for as a 386 upgrade? > > The only 386 upgrades I know of are know by the ID -486 SLC propably a 386 SX replacement -486 DLC a 386 DX (I dunno for sure) They had extra cache and could run up to 40 or 50 Mhz with some internal clock multiplication. Numerical coprocessors were of the 387 type (Fastmath). Souped up 386's so to speak I've seen both on CPU-boards that looked very much like their 386SX /DX progenitors. Same types of PLL oscilators, placement of SIMMS (30pins) and slots and identical glue chips It has been know tha not all software could be run reliably on them. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 10 13:26:00 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <20000410182600.5886.qmail@brouhaha.com> > And another example, not even hardware, and not strictly about the Mac. I > have an Apple LW2NT printer. It uses Level 1 Postscript. I have the Adobe > 'red book', so I know the standard, device independant, commands. But > where, oh where, do I find the device dependant commands. The ones to set > the serial port baud rate. To enable/disable the startup page. To read > the page count. Etc, etc, etc. The LaserWriter Reference Manual. Addison-Wesley. > No, there are many gaping holes that are not filled by any Apple > documentation that I've seen. The Macintosh models up through the Macintosh Plus were closed. They didn't document the internal video interface because you weren't supposed to open the box. You can certainly argue that making it a closed box may have been stupid, but the fact remains that they documented all the interfaces that they wanted you to use. (And the floppy interface was not a supported interface for non-Apple products.) With the Macintosh II and SE models, they opened it up, and they published documentation on the supported interfaces, which now included NuBus on the II, and the PDS (Processor Direct Slot) on the SE. (The floppy interface was still, and has always been, not a supported interface for non-Apple products.) If you really wanted to know what was going on with the floppy inteface, it wasn't hard to figure it out. But even with the relevant technical info (reverse-engineered or otherwise), it wasn't an especially useful interface for anything, so it's no great loss that they didn't fully document it. My point was that they did a damn good job of documenting the stuff that was needed to get software developed for the machine. And hardware, once they decided to open it. From bill_r at inebraska.com Mon Apr 10 14:28:02 2000 From: bill_r at inebraska.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: 386 upgrade cpus? Message-ID: <200004101926.OAA25856@pigeon.inebraska.com> >There were daughterboards that fitted in place of the 80286 processor >chip. They normally contained an 80386SX (16 bit data bus) or sometimes a >486SLC-type thing (that could be convinced to use a 16 bit data bus >without too much work) and a couple of PLDs to combine bus control >signals, etc. Some of them even had a floating point chip on the board. > Ah - the "SX/Now!" from Kingston, for example. Installed a bunch of them. When we had problems with them, the tended to be referred to as the "Sucks Now!"... Before that, it was the "Excellerator" board, which used an ISA card with essentially a complete 286 CPU, RAM, etc. and a DIP jumper which plugged into the 8086 socket and made your PC into a screaming 16Mhz '286. Installed a bunch of those, too. Many years ago, we went through a whole upgrade cycle on all of the original PC machines our company had out in the field; brought them into the office, installed an Excellerator and a 20MB "Hard Card", and a <*gasp> 2400 baud modem!! Bill Richman http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf microcomputer simulator!) From sipke at wxs.nl Mon Apr 10 14:10:26 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: Optical Mouse Pad References: <200004101436.KAA01891@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <009201bfa320$6dd1a500$030101ac@boll.casema.net> On very white paper ! (Should be white to IR) (There is a lot of chalk on premium Inkjet paper that may do) On my Sun 3/80 mouspad the lines are 1 mm apart and 0.1 to 0.2 mm thick Sipke ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, April 10, 2000 3:35 PM Subject: Optical Mouse Pad > Uh, Duh. Ok, I wondered if it was an IR led but now I know it is and that > it is working because I can get the mouse to move a teeny bit by running > it over dense text. > > I think I have to make a mousepad. Any ideas on the distance between > lines etc? -- > ------------------------------------------- ---------------- > Jeffrey S. Worley > Technical Services > Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. > 1979B Hendersonville Road > Asheville, NC 28803 > 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days > 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax > Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? > Technoid@Cheta.net > ------------------------------------------- ---------------- > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 10 16:37:37 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: Apple Mac (was: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) In-Reply-To: References: <20000410013010.2377.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 10, 0 01:30:10 am Message-ID: <200004101939.e3AJdUs04855@mail2.siemens.de> > > "Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)" wrote: > > > Or, in the early days of the Macintosh, the > > > difficulty in getting technical manuals for the machine (indeed, at first, > > > to find *any* books much more technical than "How to hold the mouse")... > > I strongly disagree. Apple did everything they could to court > > developers for the Macintosh. If there wasn't a cheap book on > > programming the Macintosh in the stores then, it was only because there > > was such a large amount of technical information needed, and it wasn't > > yet edited into a book suited for mass-market publication. It was *NOT* > > because Apple was trying to restrict software development to an > > annointed few; they'd tried that route on the Apple /// and failed > > horribly. (I'm answering to Tonys mail, since I never recived Charles') I got a somewhat different momory on this topic. Back when the Mac was new, it was like a 180 Degree shift in Apples information policy. In my view Apple did anything to hinder developers. And that'S not only my opinion - back then I was part of a 'gang' of A][ freaks, and of course we where interested in the Mac, but beside the deadly high price for the Mac, the even higher costs of documentations and the lack of a real choice in programming language was prohibitive. With the Apple ][ you recived a full machine and OS description free of additional charge - for the Mac with a price, at least double to tripple the price of an A][ you go _nothing_, you rather had to spend again almost again the money for an A][, just for documentation and very minimalistic tools. And if this isn't enough, you had to sign a contract with Apple to get all the stuff - you know, they didn't want to sell just to geeks anymore. Only two of us did jump onto the Mac - all other stayed with the A][, and eventualy became IBM-PC guys. IBM did exactly the same as Apple with the A][ - give information to the people - yes, they charged, but way less than Apple, and you don't need to sell your soul - if your able to tell the Name of the document you got it. Well, yes, if we walked into the IBM store (Aeh, not store... royal dependance:) at this time, we didn't get the same 'audience' as 'real' customers, but we told what we want (i.e. an order number) and we get it fast and as we want it. And don't tell me about the complex informations etc. At this Time I was already doing some (truly small) jobs with Xerox systems - IMHO a way better integrated system as the Mac ever did become. It should have been the responsibility of Apple to give the developers info out the easy way. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 10 16:41:41 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: Complete List Archives Available! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200004101943.e3AJhXs05557@mail2.siemens.de> > One of the things I'm considering is making a CD-rom distribution of the > list archives available to list members; any interest? It would allow for > faster searching and accessability to the archives for someone working on > a classic system not in the immediate vicinity of an internettable > computer. I could make it available as an ISO image download by individual > request, or burn CD's here for the cost of media/shipping. > I still need to add the search capability, so I'm seriously looking for > someone with experience setting up Glimpse or something similar. Also, any > ideas for setting this up for a CD version would be appreciated. What about adding an HTML search interface ? A CD should give enough space to add several indices, so some search trees can be added upfront (fixed). Also, if search programms may be written in perl, they should be fairly system independant. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 10 14:50:33 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <20000410182600.5886.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 10, 0 06:26:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1551 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000410/94bedad6/attachment.ksh From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 10 14:54:59 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: HPIB to HPIL adapter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have a Hewlett Packard adapter for connecting HPIB to HPIL. It is in original box, with AC adapter, manual, and HPIL cord (all that originally came with it) I want $15 plus shipping ($3.55 for priority mail in US) I also have a Hewlett Packard ISA HPIB card, plus cable. It doesn't look like it's been used, but I don't have manual or disks. $10 plus shipping. I've also got an IBM GPIB board, but it's under a bunch of other stuff somwewhere. If I don't get any response soon, I'll start putting the stuff on e-bay. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 10 16:59:50 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: MSX (Was: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) In-Reply-To: <01e001bfa0d2$99023be0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <200004102001.e3AK1hs08896@mail2.siemens.de> > Microsoft also was involved in the (in)famous MSX standard and they > developed MSX-DOS for it. Hey, drop this right now ... MSX was quite a great thing. And if I had to select the single best thing MS ever did to the customer, I'd definitly go for MSX. I think it's not MS fault that it never realy took of in the US ... Well, one could blame it on a US specific mood to avoide standards in favour for short term profit - Hasn't it been the same lately with GSM ? The whole world but the US can agree and use one standard ... making even small and prior unknown companies like Nokia big enough to conquer the divided US market... In another timeline, where the PC didn't take over the home computer market, MSX may have become the single small computer standard, only to see the US market be invaded by Japaneese Hardware and Software. Anyway, MSX was realy one of the better Microsoft products. I don't tell that it's a 1000% inovation out of nothing - just the right solution for a common problem. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 10 15:13:57 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: HP 9000/800 H20 In-Reply-To: Re: HP 9000/800 H20 (Stan Sieler) References: <20000410050758.Q220@mrbill.net> <200004101906.MAA21880@opus.allegro.com> Message-ID: <14578.13829.483311.641149@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 10, Stan Sieler wrote: > An HP 9000/H20 is a 48 MHz PA-RISC system, also known as an 827. > It's got a very small cache (64 KB data, 64 KB code). > > I'd guess it's valued in the $1000 to $2000 range. I picked up an E55 (twice > as fast) for $400 in 1999...but that was a really good price. > > OTOH, if you want to part it out, I'd be interested in some of > the memory for an HP 3000/927 I just got. While we're on the topic...I recently picked up an HP9000 model I70 (dual 96Mhz PA-RISC processors) and it's got some sort of funky multi-serial-port card (16 ports) in it that terminates in a huge D-shell connector. From what little info I've been able to find online, it seems that the console I/O goes to one of the serial lines on that board. Alas, I don't have any cables/breakout boxes/etc to connect to that board. Can someone here tell me what I need to find to talk to the console of this box? Even some pinouts of that big connector might help. Thanks! -Dave McGuire From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 10 17:14:50 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: References: <200004081201.IAA00865@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <200004102016.e3AKGhs11923@mail2.siemens.de> > > Not to be outdone, it was an American Professor who, when asked what > > to do if you don't know how to handle an error, was to simply not > > check for the error. > Clearly, this American Professor writes code for Linux! ;-) Well, at least the time-to-market ratio is better in American products. We are told we should be more like the Amerikans and less 'Bedenkentraeger' (scruples carrier sp?) - just write code and release it :) Serious! Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 10 17:18:54 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: Innovation ?(was: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) In-Reply-To: <200004090400.AAA23625@armigeron.com> References: <001901bfa143$90a55ba0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> from "Sipke de Wal" at Apr 08, 2000 12:16:52 PM Message-ID: <200004102020.e3AKKks12758@mail2.siemens.de> > The Newton OS was very innovative, along with its GUI (it handles > cut-n-paste better than any GUI I've used---I wish more GUIs did it the > Newton way). NOS is, like the Star, a very unique development. I think (well I hope) there will be at laest some Mac like follow up soon - PalmOS and EPOC is still like CP/M compared to NOS. > -spc (But I think this is straying a bit from Classic Computers) Thanks to Killer Steve NOS is already classic :( VCFe will have a Newton Display, although the no Newton fits the 10 year rule. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From spc at armigeron.com Mon Apr 10 15:23:22 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Apr 10, 2000 07:01:47 PM Message-ID: <200004102026.QAA16359@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > > > > > "Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)" wrote: > > > Or, in the early days of the Macintosh, the > > > difficulty in getting technical manuals for the machine (indeed, at first, > > > to find *any* books much more technical than "How to hold the mouse")... > > > > I strongly disagree. Apple did everything they could to court > > developers for the Macintosh. If there wasn't a cheap book on > > programming the Macintosh in the stores then, it was only because there > > was such a large amount of technical information needed, and it wasn't > > yet edited into a book suited for mass-market publication. It was *NOT* > > because Apple was trying to restrict software development to an > > annointed few; they'd tried that route on the Apple /// and failed > > horribly. > > Admittedly I'm a hardware person, but IMHO the information that was > printed in 'Inside Macintosh' is totally inadequate. At least compared to > the information in the IBM Technical Reference manuals, and the > information in DEC's manuals and ... That's the point, actually. They gave you enough information about the software, but not the hardware. Reasoning behind that is so the programmer only programs to the given API, not the hardware, so that Apple can change the hardware. That's a major problem with the PC and one of the reasons why we were stuck with legacy PC hardware for so long---programmers hit the hardware for nearly every program written prior to Windows 3.0 coming out. It really depends upon what you want for information. Inside Macintosh is a programmers manual, not an engineers manual. -spc (Which is probably why you don't like it) From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Apr 10 15:32:57 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: Complete List Archives Available! In-Reply-To: <200004101943.e3AJhXs05557@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: That's what I wanted to do with Glimpse (perl based). There are a number of nice HTML front ends for this search engine...the only part would be setting it up to operate locally. I'll check into it...though I haven't received any interest in it whatsoever, so it's probably a moot point. As far as searching, I hope to have everything configured and up this week on the web for full searching of text/titles. Cheers, Aaron On Mon, 10 Apr 2000, Hans Franke wrote: > > > One of the things I'm considering is making a CD-rom distribution of the > > list archives available to list members; any interest? It would allow for > > faster searching and accessability to the archives for someone working on > > a classic system not in the immediate vicinity of an internettable > > computer. I could make it available as an ISO image download by individual > > request, or burn CD's here for the cost of media/shipping. > > > I still need to add the search capability, so I'm seriously looking for > > someone with experience setting up Glimpse or something similar. Also, any > > ideas for setting this up for a CD version would be appreciated. > > What about adding an HTML search interface ? > A CD should give enough space to add several indices, so > some search trees can be added upfront (fixed). Also, > if search programms may be written in perl, they should be > fairly system independant. > > Gruss > H. > > -- > VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen > http://www.vintage.org/vcfe > http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe > From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Apr 10 15:35:10 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: HP 9000/800 H20 In-Reply-To: <14578.13829.483311.641149@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: Hi Dave, I think I have the terminal splitter for it. If someone else can provide a part number or better description of what it would look like, I'll check. What I have is an extra from an HP3000... Cheers, Aaron On Mon, 10 Apr 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > On April 10, Stan Sieler wrote: > > An HP 9000/H20 is a 48 MHz PA-RISC system, also known as an 827. > > It's got a very small cache (64 KB data, 64 KB code). > > > > I'd guess it's valued in the $1000 to $2000 range. I picked up an E55 (twice > > as fast) for $400 in 1999...but that was a really good price. > > > > OTOH, if you want to part it out, I'd be interested in some of > > the memory for an HP 3000/927 I just got. > > While we're on the topic...I recently picked up an HP9000 model I70 > (dual 96Mhz PA-RISC processors) and it's got some sort of funky > multi-serial-port card (16 ports) in it that terminates in a huge D-shell > connector. From what little info I've been able to find online, it > seems that the console I/O goes to one of the serial lines on that > board. Alas, I don't have any cables/breakout boxes/etc to connect to > that board. Can someone here tell me what I need to find to talk to > the console of this box? Even some pinouts of that big connector > might help. Thanks! > > -Dave McGuire > From elvey at hal.com Mon Apr 10 15:38:19 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: Disk on my NIC-80 In-Reply-To: <200004102001.e3AK1hs08896@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <200004102038.NAA05709@civic.hal.com> Hi All Well, I've started to reverse engineering the disk drive on this machine. Looking at things, I think it is a hard sectored controller ( 8 inch drive ). There is a circuit that looks like it is for separating the index hole from the sector holes. As I recall, the index hole is spaced half way between two sector holes. It uses a 74121 one shot to detect this signal. The resistor and capacitor give the following timing: 0.7 ( 0.22e-6 * 22e3 ) = 3.4 ms. I would think that this signal would be about 3/4 of a sector to catch the index mark in the middle. As I recall, 8 inch disk rotate at 360 rpm ( help me here, is this right? ). That would be 166.7 ms per rev. Now, X * Y = 166.7 with X = sector time and Y = number of sectors. If I assume that 3/4 * X = 3.4 then X = 4.5. Y would then be 36.9. My question is, does this sound like a reasonable hard sectored 8 inch disk? Do they come in 32 sectors or is there a flaw in my calculations someplace? The number of sectors should be between 25 and 50 someplace according to my calculations. 32 would make the most sense. There is also a counter that only counts to 8 before cycling. Could they be logically dividing the disk into 4 blocks? The data word size is 20 bits and not 8 bits. If so, anyone have any of these hard sectored disk? What are standard sizes for sectoring of 8 inch drives? Dwight From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 10 17:41:18 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: Complete List Archives Available! In-Reply-To: References: <200004101943.e3AJhXs05557@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <200004102043.e3AKhBs17155@mail2.siemens.de> > That's what I wanted to do with Glimpse (perl based). There are a number > of nice HTML front ends for this search engine...the only part would be > setting it up to operate locally. I'll check into it...though I haven't > received any interest in it whatsoever, so it's probably a moot point. > As far as searching, I hope to have everything configured and up this week > on the web for full searching of text/titles. As for my part, I'd like to have a CD to be loaded (mounted if necersary) and just used by a browser (with an equaly good interface for Lynx and graphical stuff). Of course I won't opt against _additional_ wix-or-whatever tools, as long as I can use the basic stuff on any machine. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 10 15:58:52 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:41 2005 Subject: 386 upgrade cpus? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > chip. They normally contained an 80386SX (16 bit data bus) or sometimes a > 486SLC-type thing (that could be convinced to use a 16 bit data bus > without too much work) and a couple of PLDs to combine bus control My favorite is the intel Inboard series. I have one for the XT (leading edge model D) and it's a 386sx/16 with 1mb ram. runs nice. It's problem is that most stuff youd want a 386 for needs 4-8mb as minima and the matching memory card is scarce. Still as a dos engine it's fast and someday I have to try minix though the memory is low. Allison From sipke at wxs.nl Mon Apr 10 15:43:40 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: MSX (Was: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) References: <200004102001.e3AK1hs08896@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <00d801bfa32d$743a5920$030101ac@boll.casema.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: Hans Franke To: Sent: Monday, April 10, 2000 11:00 PM Subject: MSX (Was: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) > Sipke de Wal wrote: >> > > Microsoft also was involved in the (in)famous MSX standard and they > > developed MSX-DOS for it. > Hans Franke wrote > Hey, drop this right now ... MSX was quite a great thing. > And if I had to select the single best thing MS ever did > to the customer, I'd definitly go for MSX. I think it's > not MS fault that it never realy took of in the US ... I Agree ...... All I wanted to say is that MSX-DOS effectively is the same as CP/M 2.x CP/M-software even ZCPR3 would happily run under MSX-DOS Trouble was that there was more than one MSX standard mainly due to Spectravideo. That's why I stated: (in)famous. Sipke (By the way. I'm from the Netherlands. Not that far from you .....) From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 10 18:09:33 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: MSX (Was: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) In-Reply-To: <00d801bfa32d$743a5920$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <200004102111.e3ALBPs22366@mail2.siemens.de> > > Hey, drop this right now ... MSX was quite a great thing. > > And if I had to select the single best thing MS ever did > > to the customer, I'd definitly go for MSX. I think it's > > not MS fault that it never realy took of in the US ... > I Agree ...... > All I wanted to say is that MSX-DOS effectively is the same > as CP/M 2.x > CP/M-software even ZCPR3 would happily run under MSX-DOS Right. > Trouble was that there was more than one MSX standard mainly > due to > Spectravideo. That's why I stated: (in)famous. Taken - IMHO Spectravideo was an (somewhat successfull) atempt to pervert MSX. > (By the way. I'm from the Netherlands. Not that far from you > .....) You'r address implies this - And I assume we'll meet at VCFe ? :)) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 10 16:29:28 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: 386 upgrade cpus? References: Message-ID: <002401bfa333$e07e5ae0$0400c0a8@winbook> I never got too excited about the '386 adapters to a '286 system, because the 386DX was a mite slower than a '286 running from the same clock. What's more, when you used a '386 back then the first thing that the OS did was tell it "you're a '286 now" and proceed. The '286 did this a little better. By the time there was a '386 that actually outran the '286, ther was a '486 that could outrun 'em both. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Monday, April 10, 2000 12:05 PM Subject: Re: 386 upgrade cpus? > > > > The upgrades for the '386 types were typically 486DLC thingies that claimed > > to be a '486 but looked like and fit in the place of a '386. They also had > > no internal math processor. > > > > The '286's weren't so easily upgraded, but there were 20 and 25 MHz CMOS > > (Harris) versions that were pretty popular. > > There were daughterboards that fitted in place of the 80286 processor > chip. They normally contained an 80386SX (16 bit data bus) or sometimes a > 486SLC-type thing (that could be convinced to use a 16 bit data bus > without too much work) and a couple of PLDs to combine bus control > signals, etc. Some of them even had a floating point chip on the board. > > They work. I'm using one right now (how else do you run linux on a PC/AT > :-)). But they're not exactly fast... > > -tony > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 10 16:32:41 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: Innovation ?(was: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) In-Reply-To: Re: Innovation ?(was: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) (Hans Franke) References: <001901bfa143$90a55ba0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> <200004102020.e3AKKks12758@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <14578.18553.173460.179208@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 10, Hans Franke wrote: > Thanks to Killer Steve NOS is already classic :( VCFe will have a > Newton Display, although the no Newton fits the 10 year rule. I dunno, man...so they're not being *made* anymore...there's still a huge market for them; I use my MP2000 every day. A bunch of people at my office have PalmPilots...I *hate* those blased things...I don't want to have to learn a second alphabet just because the PalmOS idiots can't get character recognition right! -Dave McGuire From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Mon Apr 10 16:37:03 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: Xerox (was: Apple Mac) In-Reply-To: <200004101939.e3AJdUs04855@mail2.siemens.de>; from Hans Franke on Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 09:38:37PM +0000 References: <20000410013010.2377.qmail@brouhaha.com> <200004101939.e3AJdUs04855@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <20000410143703.C10373@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 09:38:37PM +0000, Hans Franke wrote: > And don't tell me about the complex informations etc. At this > Time I was already doing some (truly small) jobs with Xerox > systems - IMHO a way better integrated system as the Mac ever What became of this? What did it run on anyway? I'd like to see it someday, since it seems to have a lot of respect. -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Apr 10 16:21:07 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: References: <20000410013010.2377.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 10, 0 01:30:10 am Message-ID: >where, oh where, do I find the device dependant commands. The ones to set >the serial port baud rate. To enable/disable the startup page. To read >the page count. Etc, etc, etc. > >No, there are many gaping holes that are not filled by any Apple >documentation that I've seen. > >-tony But Tony, these are things its better you didn't know. ;) From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 10 18:37:36 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: Innovation ?(was: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) In-Reply-To: <14578.18553.173460.179208@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: Re: Innovation ?(was: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) (Hans Franke) Message-ID: <200004102139.e3ALdTs26765@mail2.siemens.de> > On April 10, Hans Franke wrote: > > Thanks to Killer Steve NOS is already classic :( VCFe will have a > > Newton Display, although the no Newton fits the 10 year rule. > I dunno, man...so they're not being *made* anymore...there's still a > huge market for them; I use my MP2000 every day. A bunch of people > at my office have PalmPilots...I *hate* those blased things...I don't > want to have to learn a second alphabet just because the PalmOS idiots > can't get character recognition right! :)) Like in "I don't want to learn shell commands, just because they don't get their GUI working' ? :)) SCNR, but NOS compared to PalmOS is realy like Mac vs. Dos or better - A Star compared to Win 3.0. Gruss h: -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Mon Apr 10 16:37:22 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: Optical Mouse Pad Message-ID: <20000410.163722.-449091.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> When I worked in a UNIX shop, somebody told me that wrinkled aluminum foil would work. I've never tried this, but it seems plausible. Jeff On Mon, 10 Apr 2000 21:10:26 +0200 "Sipke de Wal" writes: > On very white paper ! (Should be white to IR) > (There is a lot of chalk on premium Inkjet > paper that may do) > > On my Sun 3/80 mouspad the lines are 1 mm > apart > and 0.1 to 0.2 mm thick > > Sipke ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 10 16:48:51 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: Innovation ?(was: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) In-Reply-To: Re: Innovation ?(was: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) (Hans Franke) References: <200004102139.e3ALdTs26765@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <14578.19523.543132.179545@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 10, Hans Franke wrote: > > I dunno, man...so they're not being *made* anymore...there's still a > > huge market for them; I use my MP2000 every day. A bunch of people > > at my office have PalmPilots...I *hate* those blased things...I don't > > want to have to learn a second alphabet just because the PalmOS idiots > > can't get character recognition right! > > :)) > > Like in "I don't want to learn shell commands, just because they > don't get their GUI working' ? :)) ;) > SCNR, but NOS compared to PalmOS is realy like Mac vs. Dos or > better - A Star compared to Win 3.0. Yup. -Dave McGuire From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Mon Apr 10 17:13:29 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: Varian Data Machines Message-ID: <20000410221329.33409.qmail@hotmail.com> Hi, Does anyone have any docs and/or software for Varian machines, particularly the 620/L-100 since I just got one, but any Varian stuff would be cool. Will J ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 10 17:34:41 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: HP 3000/925LX available in Hillsboro, Oregon In-Reply-To: <200004101914.MAA21985@opus.allegro.com> from "Stan Sieler" at Apr 10, 2000 12:13:03 PM Message-ID: <200004102234.PAA14934@shell1.aracnet.com> > > Re: > > > I stopped in to the Hillsboro Wacky Willies about an hour ago. They had a > > Where's Hillsboro? (city, state?) Hmm, your mailer must have chopped part of the subject. It's in Hillsboro, Oregon (about 30 minutes from downtown Portand). Zane From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 10 16:41:43 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: HPIB to HPIL adapter In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 10, 0 12:54:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1090 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000410/ecfedced/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 10 16:47:23 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <200004102026.QAA16359@armigeron.com> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Apr 10, 0 04:23:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1788 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000410/9ea7e264/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 10 16:52:34 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: Disk on my NIC-80 In-Reply-To: <200004102038.NAA05709@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at Apr 10, 0 01:38:19 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1603 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000410/468d86fb/attachment.ksh From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Mon Apr 10 17:48:46 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: Apple Mac (was: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) Message-ID: <20000410224846.94244.qmail@hotmail.com> >(I'm answering to Tonys mail, since I never recived Charles') > >I got a somewhat different momory on this topic. Back when >the Mac was new, it was like a 180 Degree shift in Apples >information policy. In my view Apple did anything to hinder >developers. And that'S not only my opinion - back then I was >part of a 'gang' of A][ freaks, and of course we where interested >in the Mac, but beside the deadly high price for the Mac, >the even higher costs of documentations and the lack of a >real choice in programming language was prohibitive. With >the Apple ][ you recived a full machine and OS description >free of additional charge - for the Mac with a price, at least >double to tripple the price of an A][ you go _nothing_, you >rather had to spend again almost again the money for an A][, >just for documentation and very minimalistic tools. And if >this isn't enough, you had to sign a contract with Apple to >get all the stuff - you know, they didn't want to sell just >to geeks anymore. Only two of us did jump onto the Mac - all >other stayed with the A][, and eventualy became IBM-PC guys. >IBM did exactly the same as Apple with the A][ - give information >to the people - yes, they charged, but way less than Apple, >and you don't need to sell your soul - if your able to tell >the Name of the document you got it. Well, yes, if we walked >into the IBM store (Aeh, not store... royal dependance:) at >this time, we didn't get the same 'audience' as 'real' customers, >but we told what we want (i.e. an order number) and we get >it fast and as we want it. > >And don't tell me about the complex informations etc. At this >Time I was already doing some (truly small) jobs with Xerox >systems - IMHO a way better integrated system as the Mac ever >did become. It should have been the responsibility of Apple >to give the developers info out the easy way. > >Gruss >H. > >-- >VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen >http://www.vintage.org/vcfe >http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe Well, since everyone on the list has thrown in their two (or more) cents, I finally feel it is my turn. Anyway, Hans has a good point going here, Apple did with the Macintosh what TI tried to do when the TI-99/4A was out: try to block out third party developers. What can we learn from this? Very simple, never try to tell people they can't develop hardware & software for a machine, because that will only give people the extra push they need to develop stuff for a computer. But this is something I have noticed: We all know how many PC manufacturers are abound (maybe too many), by there are how many Macintosh clone manufacturers? (I can't think of any off the top of my head) And the Government is jumping in Microsoft's back for being monopolistic? They might want to look on the other end of the spectrum. (Now I can understand why IBM & Motorola are pissed off at Apple for not letting clone manufacturers use G3/G4's in their Maclones.) If you ask me, (and so begins my conspiracy theory) I think the Microsoft Antitrust Trial was a sham, because why would CEO's of major software houses go against Microsoft when, in most cases, their software is flying off the shelves? You do not bite the hand that feeds you, unless the hand being bitten is not feeding you! If you ask me, I think only one man had something to gain from this, his name is Steve Jobs. ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Technoid at cheta.net Mon Apr 10 18:02:34 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: Aluminum Foil Pad for Optical Mouse In-Reply-To: <20000410.163722.-449091.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <200004102302.TAA01846@lexington.ioa.net> Strange but true, wrinkled aluminum foil works as an optical mousepad if you are desperate. It really works. In <20000410.163722.-449091.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com>, on 04/10/00 at 07:02 PM, Jeffrey l Kaneko said: >When I worked in a UNIX shop, somebody told me that >wrinkled aluminum foil would work. I've never tried >this, but it seems plausible. >Jeff >On Mon, 10 Apr 2000 21:10:26 +0200 "Sipke de Wal" writes: >> On very white paper ! (Should be white to IR) >> (There is a lot of chalk on premium Inkjet >> paper that may do) >> >> On my Sun 3/80 mouspad the lines are 1 mm >> apart >> and 0.1 to 0.2 mm thick >> >> Sipke >________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE >PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! >Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! >Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From transit at lerctr.org Mon Apr 10 18:12:20 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: MSX (Was: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) In-Reply-To: <00d801bfa32d$743a5920$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Apr 2000, Sipke de Wal wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Hans Franke > To: > Sent: Monday, April 10, 2000 11:00 PM > Subject: MSX (Was: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) > > > > Sipke de Wal wrote: > >> > > > Microsoft also was involved in the (in)famous MSX > standard and they > > > developed MSX-DOS for it. > > > Hans Franke wrote > > Hey, drop this right now ... MSX was quite a great thing. > > And if I had to select the single best thing MS ever did > > to the customer, I'd definitly go for MSX. I think it's > > not MS fault that it never realy took of in the US ... > > I Agree ...... > > All I wanted to say is that MSX-DOS effectively is the same > as CP/M 2.x > CP/M-software even ZCPR3 would happily run under MSX-DOS > > Trouble was that there was more than one MSX standard mainly > due to > Spectravideo. That's why I stated: (in)famous. The MSX's were some nice little machines. (I still have a Spectravideo that I picked up from a flea market some years ago, although it is non-working. If anyone wants such a beast, let's talk...) By the time they showed up in the US, though, the 8-bit home computer shakeout had already taken place, leaving nothing but Apple II (on the high end) and Commodore 64 (on the low end). . .The MSX's were very popular in other parts of the world, though. From jpero at cgocable.net Mon Apr 10 14:19:20 2000 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: 386 upgrade cpus? In-Reply-To: <002401bfa333$e07e5ae0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <200004102315.e3ANFRr25297@admin.cgocable.net> > From: "Richard Erlacher" > To: > Subject: Re: 386 upgrade cpus? > Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 15:29:28 -0600 > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > I never got too excited about the '386 adapters to a '286 system, because > the 386DX was a mite slower than a '286 running from the same clock. What's > more, when you used a '386 back then the first thing that the OS did was > tell it "you're a '286 now" and proceed. The '286 did this a little better. > By the time there was a '386 that actually outran the '286, ther was a '486 > that could outrun 'em both. Oh there were few IBM, Kingston and few other made straight 486dx or sx upgrade daughterboards that fits the 386dx socket. I have the "486/Now!" works straight out of box but performance well no better than a 386dx 40 but the FPU is powerful typical to '486. Oh, there's RapidCad by intel for 386dx boards. I'm surprised many didn't hear or talk about this set. I'm impressed most by the true IBM 486SLC2 and SLC3. Wizard From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Apr 10 17:55:38 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: 386 upgrade cpus? In-Reply-To: <002401bfa333$e07e5ae0$0400c0a8@winbook> References: Message-ID: >I never got too excited about the '386 adapters to a '286 system, because >the 386DX was a mite slower than a '286 running from the same clock. What's >more, when you used a '386 back then the first thing that the OS did was >tell it "you're a '286 now" and proceed. The '286 did this a little better. >By the time there was a '386 that actually outran the '286, ther was a '486 >that could outrun 'em both. Thats good to know, mostly I think what I would like to find are the 486 upgrades to 386 based machines. Many of my "cute" computers are 386 based, and the added speed of a 486 might be nice in some situations. From paulrsm at ameritech.net Mon Apr 10 18:33:07 2000 From: paulrsm at ameritech.net (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: Apple Mac LC II Message-ID: <20000410233749.TJYZ10292.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> My LC II is my main Macintosh even though I have a better Mac IIci because the LC II has the Apple IIe Card. I use a Apple 12" Monochrome Display (M1050), but my AppleColor High-Resolution RGB Monitor (M1297) works on it as well. Screen resolution is 640x480x256 (I think). There is 4MB on the board and two SIMM slots which can hold up to 4MB in each slot. That equals 12MB but the computer will only address 10MB (some weird Apple memory scheme I believe is related to 24-bit addressing). I have several cards for the single PDS slot: the Apple IIe Card, Ethernet network cards, and a video card for a large (17-19 inch I think) monochrome monitor. I think the last version of MacOS it can run is 7.5.5 because the ROMs are not 32-bit clean. I use MacOS 7.1 with Update 3.0. You can get an older version of ClarisWorks very cheap. You may wish to purchase an external SCSI CD-ROM drive. I can give you the web addresses of several vendors who sell used older Macintosh stuff. Paul R. Santa-Maria Ann Arbor, Michigan USA paulrsm@ameritech.net ---------- > From: Kevin L. Anderson > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: OT: Apple Mac LC II > Date: Monday, April 10, 2000 10:38 AM > > This is off-topic, so please reply directly. Thanks. > > My son was just given a Mac LC II without a monitor, but > including a keyboard and mouse. I am not a Mac user or > owner (until now), so I have no idea whatsoever to be looking > for in a replacement monitor. Is the LC II a B&W or Color > computer (I don't have the foggiest :-)? Help. > > The computer has a 160MB hard drive, a floppy drive, and what > appears to be one memory SIMM (with four big chips on it, so > I'm guessing 4MB at most). > > Cheers. Kevin > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > Kevin L. Anderson Ph.D., Geography Department, Augustana College > Rock Island, Illinois 61201-2296, USA phone: (309) 794-7325 > e-mail: kla@helios.augustana.edu -or- gganderson@augustana.edu > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > Opinions expressed here are my own and do not represent > the administration of Augustana College. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Apr 10 18:42:25 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: FT: VAX GPX cable Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000410164053.00c16c10@208.226.86.10> I have a VAX GPX cable (db-15 to three BNCs, Mouse, and Keyboard) that I would like to trade for a VAX SCSI cable that works on the VS3100/M76. (68 pin to 50 pin). If you've got one and would like to trade please contact me off list, thanks. --Chuck From elvey at hal.com Mon Apr 10 18:39:27 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: Disk on my NIC-80 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200004102339.QAA08014@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > two sector holes. It uses a 74121 one shot to detect > > this signal. The resistor and capacitor give the following > > timing: 0.7 ( 0.22e-6 * 22e3 ) = 3.4 ms. I would think > > that this signal would be about 3/4 of a sector to > > catch the index mark in the middle. As I recall, > > Yes, that sounds reasonable. The monostable triggers on each sector hole, > but as it's non-retriggerable, it can't retrigger on the index hole (well, > not after the first revolution, possibly). And 3/4 of the sector time > would be a reasonable value to aim at. > Hi The circuit is clever. The output of the '121 goes to the data pin of a '74. Both the '121 and '74 are clocked by the index pulse. If it is the index and not the sector pulse, the output signal of the '121 gets clocked through the '74. If it is just another sector pulse, the '121 has timed out and the output of the '74 doesn't change. I was looking at the Athana site. Has anyone dealt with them? How much do they charge for a box of 10 8-inch disk? Is anyone planning on making a purchase soon, they have a $100 minimum? Dwight From bobstek at ix.netcom.com Mon Apr 10 18:43:21 2000 From: bobstek at ix.netcom.com (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: Complete List Archives Available! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks for doing this. It is a very valuable resource. And I'll add my name to the list of those wanting a searchable CDROM as well. Bob Stek Saver of Lost SOLs -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Aaron Christopher Finney Sent: Monday, April 10, 2000 4:33 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Complete List Archives Available! That's what I wanted to do with Glimpse (perl based). There are a number of nice HTML front ends for this search engine...the only part would be setting it up to operate locally. I'll check into it...though I haven't received any interest in it whatsoever, so it's probably a moot point. As far as searching, I hope to have everything configured and up this week on the web for full searching of text/titles. Cheers, Aaron On Mon, 10 Apr 2000, Hans Franke wrote: > > > One of the things I'm considering is making a CD-rom distribution of the > > list archives available to list members; any interest? It would allow for > > faster searching and accessability to the archives for someone working on > > a classic system not in the immediate vicinity of an internettable > > computer. I could make it available as an ISO image download by individual > > request, or burn CD's here for the cost of media/shipping. > > > I still need to add the search capability, so I'm seriously looking for > > someone with experience setting up Glimpse or something similar. Also, any > > ideas for setting this up for a CD version would be appreciated. > > What about adding an HTML search interface ? > A CD should give enough space to add several indices, so > some search trees can be added upfront (fixed). Also, > if search programms may be written in perl, they should be > fairly system independant. > > Gruss > H. > > -- > VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen > http://www.vintage.org/vcfe > http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe > From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Mon Apr 10 18:57:38 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: Apple Mac (was: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) Message-ID: <001a01bfa348$8d6f07e0$6a4be4cf@vax.vantageresearch.com> -----Original Message----- From: David Vohs To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, April 10, 2000 5:19 PM Subject: Re: Apple Mac (was: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) >Well, since everyone on the list has thrown in their two (or more) cents, I >finally feel it is my turn. > >Anyway, Hans has a good point going here, Apple did with the Macintosh what >TI tried to do when the TI-99/4A was out: try to block out third party >developers. What can we learn from this? Very simple, never try to tell >people they can't develop hardware & software for a machine, because that >will only give people the extra push they need to develop stuff for a >computer. > >But this is something I have noticed: We all know how many PC manufacturers >are abound (maybe too many), by there are how many Macintosh clone >manufacturers? (I can't think of any off the top of my head) My understanding is that many people (including Bill Gates!) encouraged Apple to allow licensing of the Macintosh OS and the building of Mac clones in the 80s and early 90s. But the management team headed by John Sculley felt that this would amount to giving away the company, because Apple was making most of its profits on hardware sales. If cheap Mac clones were everywhere, who would pay Apples prices for a true Mac? This belief was not totally unreasonable - look at what happened to IBM's sales of PCs once clones with 100% compatible third-party BIOSes were widely available. Apple failed to understand that their window to exploit the Mac's innovations was short. Once someone else produced a windowing OS that ran on cheaper PC hardware (as Microsoft eventually did), Apple's hardware sales would die, and the Mac OS would have lost it's chance to dominate. And that's what happened. There were several Power PC Mac clone manufacturers, after Apple belatedly changed it's mind in the mid-to-late 90s. Among them StarMax, Umax, and Motorola (I think). > >And the Government is jumping in Microsoft's back for being monopolistic? >They might want to look on the other end of the spectrum. (Now I can >understand why IBM & Motorola are pissed off at Apple for not letting clone >manufacturers use G3/G4's in their Maclones.) If you ask me, (and so begins >my conspiracy theory) I think the Microsoft Antitrust Trial was a sham, >because why would CEO's of major software houses go against Microsoft when, >in most cases, their software is flying off the shelves? You do not bite the >hand that feeds you, unless the hand being bitten is not feeding you! If you >ask me, I think only one man had something to gain from this, his name is >Steve Jobs. Aren't Oracle, Corel, Sun and Netscape major software houses? Larry Ellison, Michael Cowpland, Scott McNeely, and Marc Andreesen have been vocal opponents of Microsofts at one time or another. And Steve Jobs can't afford to come out against Microsoft, because the viability of the iMac depends to some extent on the availability of Microsoft Office for that platform. Apple doesn't effectively control segments of the marketplace the way Microsoft does. There's nothing monopolistic about restricting access to processors or components - lots of products are proprietary to one company and not released for sale to other companies. It's just a bad idea, something that Apple seems determined never to learn. Regards, Mark. >____________________________________________________________ >David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. > >Computer Collection: > >"Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. >"Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. >"Delorean": TI-99/4A. >"Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. >"Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. >"Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. >____________________________________________________________ >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > From transit at lerctr.org Mon Apr 10 19:00:58 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: Apple Mac (was: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) In-Reply-To: <20000410224846.94244.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Apr 2000, David Vohs wrote: > > Anyway, Hans has a good point going here, Apple did with the Macintosh what > TI tried to do when the TI-99/4A was out: try to block out third party > developers. Maybe not quite as bad as TI, although that $150 "developers club" affair is pretty close (at least to me, who was a starving college student at the time). I was used to getting an Apple II, or a TRS-80, or whatever, taking it out of the box, and writing useful programs with it. Certainly not having Apple tell me (in so many words) that I was wrong for wanting to *program* the Mac. Just play around with MacDraw and MacPaint, and everything will be fine. That really put me off Apple products for awhile. I was so glad when the Amiga came out: 1, it was color, 2, it was inexpensive color (about $1000 or so, vs. $3000+ for the cheapest Color Mac back in 1985 or so), 3, you could easily get programming information about it, even in the early days. > What can we learn from this? Very simple, never try to tell > people they can't develop hardware & software for a machine, because that > will only give people the extra push they need to develop stuff for a > computer. > Yup, applies to that "I-Opener" as well, ha ha! > But this is something I have noticed: We all know how many PC manufacturers > are abound (maybe too many), by there are how many Macintosh clone > manufacturers? (I can't think of any off the top of my head) > There were at least three: UMAX, Motorola (StarMax) and Power Computing. (I have a PowerBase 240). More or less nice machines, but they all went away when Steve Jobs came back. Boo. > And the Government is jumping in Microsoft's back for being >monopolistic? MS has pulled some sneaky stuff over the years, though. From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 10 19:06:59 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: HPIB to HPIL adapter References: Message-ID: <001301bfa349$dc710e00$0400c0a8@winbook> I'd be interested in knowing what support there is for GPIB on the ISA bus in a PC. I've got a National Instruments GPIB interface card, yet have never seen fit to lay out the dough for their GUI-based software. Is there anything out there other than LabView? I have some equipment that might like the GPIB, but have not had need to use it since Windows became the de-facto standard. Labview doesn't have drivers for the 'scope and logic analyzer that I'd be wanting to use. Any suggestions, preferably from someone who's actually used the stuff? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) To: ; Sent: Monday, April 10, 2000 1:54 PM Subject: HPIB to HPIL adapter > I have a Hewlett Packard adapter for connecting HPIB to HPIL. It is in > original box, with AC adapter, manual, and HPIL cord (all that originally > came with it) I want $15 plus shipping ($3.55 for priority mail in US) > > > I also have a Hewlett Packard ISA HPIB card, plus cable. It doesn't look > like it's been used, but I don't have manual or disks. $10 plus shipping. > > > I've also got an IBM GPIB board, but it's under a bunch of other stuff > somwewhere. > > If I don't get any response soon, I'll start putting the stuff on e-bay. > > -- > Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com > XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com > 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 > Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 > From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 10 18:13:42 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: Apple Mac (was: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) In-Reply-To: <001a01bfa348$8d6f07e0$6a4be4cf@vax.vantageresearch.com> (mgregory@vantageresearch.com) References: <001a01bfa348$8d6f07e0$6a4be4cf@vax.vantageresearch.com> Message-ID: <20000410231342.7422.qmail@brouhaha.com> David Vohs wrote: > But the management team headed by John Sculley > felt that this would amount to giving away the company, because Apple was > making most of its profits on hardware sales. Good observation, that's exactly what they thought. Many of us inside Apple at the time thought they were completely wrong. If you did a rational evaluation of where Apple's products' customer value was, it was clear that Apple was a *software* company that happened to give away computers with the software. (Admittedly it was expensive software.) They were so concerned about losing the hardware business that they made many very stupid decisions. If you compared Apple and Microsoft at that time, it was apparent that selling software (with perhaps some hardware business as a sideline) was a much more lucrative proposition. Microsoft had similar revenues but much higher profits. We all wondered why management didn't get it. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 10 18:18:37 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: Apple Mac (was: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) In-Reply-To: (transit@lerctr.org) References: Message-ID: <20000410231837.7467.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Maybe not quite as bad as TI, although that $150 "developers club" affair > is pretty close (at least to me, who was a starving college student at the > time). Apple gave the Inside Macintosh stuff to pretty much any University or College that wanted it. It's easy for people to insist that documentation ought to be free, and you can make a better case for it today (with electronic distribution) than back in 1984, but the fact was that the $150 would barely have covered Apple's costs. For comparison, how much did a DEC Orange Wall (TM) of VMS documentation cost in 1984? I seriously doubt that DEC gave it away, and suspect that the complete set was *much* more than $150, but I don't recall hearing the same degree of grumbling about it. IMAO, anyone who wanted to write Mac software in 1984 and didn't because of a supposed lack of technical documentation was simply not sufficiently motivated. The docs were widely available. From spc at armigeron.com Mon Apr 10 19:35:15 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: Apple Mac (was: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) In-Reply-To: <20000410231342.7422.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 10, 2000 11:13:42 PM Message-ID: <200004110035.UAA22718@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Eric Smith once stated: > > If you compared Apple and Microsoft at that time, it was apparent that > selling software (with perhaps some hardware business as a sideline) was > a much more lucrative proposition. Microsoft had similar revenues but > much higher profits. We all wondered why management didn't get it. While I might not like Microsoft or Bill Gates that much, I do have respect for Chairman Bill---he called it correctly back in 1975. Hardware was not where the money was, it was software. And Apple has never figured out if it was in hardware or software. Personally, I don't think it's in either. It's in R&D, only it doesn't realize it's the R&D department for the Computer Industry. -spc (It may not have started out doing R&D, but it sure ended up there ... ) From jpl15 at netcom.com Mon Apr 10 19:47:56 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: Paging Mr. Williams Message-ID: If David Williams is still subscribed, please drop me a line privately. TIA for the egregious theft of bandwidth.... it *is* on-topic related, however.... :) Cheers John From cfandt at netsync.net Mon Apr 10 20:14:17 2000 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: OT: Revise the English Language? In-Reply-To: <005e01bfa1f3$b86ae000$0400c0a8@winbook> References: <200004090423.AAA24169@armigeron.com> <002d01bfa1f0$6a6e4de0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <4.1.20000410201052.00ae11c0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 01:17 AM 4/9/00 -0600, Richard Erlacher said something like: >With all the discussion about language, I though you might find this -- snip -- ROTFL!!! :-) --Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Mon Apr 10 20:23:13 2000 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: Apple Mac (was: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) In-Reply-To: <20000410231837.7467.qmail@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "Apr 10, 2000 11:18:37 pm" Message-ID: <20000411012313Z434085-29644+274@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > > Maybe not quite as bad as TI, although that $150 "developers club" affair > > is pretty close (at least to me, who was a starving college student at the > > time). > > Apple gave the Inside Macintosh stuff to pretty much any University or > College that wanted it. > No they didn't, at least not outside the US. I believe we got a 10% to 15% discount, but not much more. I started Mac development in 1984, when they first came out. We had to buy a Lisa and the Pascal development environment, pretty much at list price in order to do any programming on the Mac. Within a year we were cross developing on Unix, Apple's support for their own development environment was so poor it wasn't worth using. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From elvey at hal.com Mon Apr 10 20:32:00 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: Dallas module battery replacement... In-Reply-To: <200004082120.RAA20847@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <200004110132.SAA09476@civic.hal.com> Technoid@cheta.net wrote: > Depends on the make how to remake the clock batt. The SG Thompson chip I > retrofitted a batt onto had the leads on the right side of the chip and > they were easily exposed with a knife. Hi I was thinking, one might take it to their local pc board assembly house. Most of these places have low power xray machines that they use to look at solder joints on ball grid parts. A couple of snap shots at a couple of angles would show how the battery is placed and where the wires are. If you had a friend at the airport, that would be another option. Many court houses also have xray machines now days as well. Just a thought Dwight From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Apr 10 20:30:50 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: Slips [OT] References: Message-ID: <002301bfa355$928376a0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, April 10, 2000 11:28 PM Subject: Re: Slips (was Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) > > Unlike your generic PA-28 Cherokees and some others they WILL try and > > snap > > savagely if you try. I have chatted with some very startled Piper > > I've found that is a good indicator of rigging. generally they snap soft. There is certainly a fairly wide variation between supposedly identical aircraft. > Mine is a real puppy and the only way to get it to snap sharply is a > dirty accelerated stall near gross. Then again the I know the rigging > is good. It also rolls nice. ;) The one I learned in was reasonably old, and I did a reval in a really old one some years later. The somewhat newer one would snap pretty hard if stalled under power in a climbing turn and tried to use aileron, it was very tame as long as you kept the aileron neutral, and picked it up with a bootful of rudder. The older one would snap quite savagely in any sort of high wing load configuration, even when using the proper technique. Both were basic trainers, so it likely that the older one in particular had more than it's share of heavy landings and was perhaps a bit out of whack. > > in a C150, which will try and snap-roll inverted if provoked in this > > manner. > > It can and will be nasty if the washout is wrong. Very. One of the guys I spoke too was literally chalk white when he got out of the aircraft. After years of flying a docile little Cherokee 140 he'd never experienced either a stall related snap or seen the effect of aileron on a dropped wing in a Cessna. > > weren't working properly. (C150's have flaps like a garage door, and > > there is a distinct > > pitch down & deceleration when you crank them out.) > > Yep! Keeps you sharp too. Flew PA28s, nice ride, lousy acro. ;) About sums it up. I did a Cherokee endorsement when I moved to Broken Hill in the 70's, and all they had was Cherokees, I used to fly a Cherokee Arrow (PA28-180-Retractable) home on some weekends, it was a nice ride. But the short field performance sucked and you can't taxi them through gates up to a house. (Both very important in a bush aircraft in this country.) I did an endorsement on a Victa Airtourer (looks a bit like a 2 seat AA5) locally (then - we sold the factory to New Zealand, then the Air Force started buying them as trainers - figures). Nice little kite, fully aerobatic, with a very serious roll rate, though a bit underpowered (100) the RAAF variant, the Airtrainer, had a much bigger engine. Unusual control setup, instead of dual's it had a single stick with a spade grip in the middle of the cockpit and a central throttle. Easy once you get used to it. Was a lot of fun to fly, I first learnt how to spin in that, since spins are classed as an aerobatic manouevre in this country - and a stock C150 isn't cleared for them - they teach you how to recover from an INCIPIENT spin instead. Not sure I'm comfortable with that, spins are very disconcerting the first couple of times you encounter them, it should be a requirement. I have more hours in C150's than anything else, I liked them a lot. (First plane, first car, first computer, first love - they all seem to be special) One day when I am rich and famous (yeah, right) I'm going to buy me one. I'd like the one I learnt in if I can, last time I looked in a register VH-KQY was still doing mustering on a station in Western Australia. Been there since 85. At least it's still flying..... Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ: 1970476 From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Apr 10 20:33:42 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: 386 upgrade cpus? References: <000601bfa231$c60421c0$6e64c0d0@ajp166> <000b01bfa2ff$c0d1d340$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <003701bfa355$f90400c0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Erlacher" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 12:46 AM Subject: Re: 386 upgrade cpus? > The upgrades for the '386 types were typically 486DLC thingies that claimed > to be a '486 but looked like and fit in the place of a '386. They also had > no internal math processor. > > The '286's weren't so easily upgraded, but there were 20 and 25 MHz CMOS > (Harris) versions that were pretty popular. I have an IBM PS2 Model 30 with a Hypertec 386 Accelerator in it. It's a card with a surface mounted 386SX-16 and it has a mating adapter that fits into the 286 CPU Slot. Works pretty well. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ: 1970476 From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 10 19:45:08 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: HPIB to HPIL adapter Message-ID: <005001bfa34f$47f3d810$7b64c0d0@ajp166> From: Richard Erlacher >I'd be interested in knowing what support there is for GPIB on the ISA bus >in a PC. I've got a National Instruments GPIB interface card, yet have >never seen fit to lay out the dough for their GUI-based software. Is there >anything out there other than LabView? I have some equipment that might >like the GPIB, but have not had need to use it since Windows became the >de-facto standard. Labview doesn't have drivers for the 'scope and logic >analyzer that I'd be wanting to use. I must have at least three or four of them in use. We connect them to Keithley 706A scanners and Keithley 2000DMMs to measure production units under test. Others are used for lab use and various test setups. Nothing exciting or gui, just down in the trenches test and data logging. Text mode output and write logging to floppy. It's not a process that can be done fast so theres no rush. We don't however use labview. the usual rig is a dosbox (ISA 286/386/486) running homegrown QuickBasic4.5 code and the supplied dos/qb45 driver. They are pretty easy to talk to. I've used the dos drivers under w95 for testing and it's a workable arrangement. One thing I'm trying under W95 is the Pascal drivers with Delphi as the GUI, this has potential as the database is handy for post logging analysis. Allison From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 10 19:53:22 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: Apple Mac (was: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) In-Reply-To: <20000411012313Z434085-29644+274@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> (message from Mark Green on Mon, 10 Apr 2000 19:23:13 -0600 (MDT)) References: <20000411012313Z434085-29644+274@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <20000411005322.7998.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Apple gave the Inside Macintosh stuff to pretty much any University or > College that wanted it. > No they didn't, at least not outside the US. [...] > We had to buy a Lisa and the Pascal > development environment, pretty much at list price in order to do > any programming on the Mac. I never said that they gave away computers or compilers. From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Apr 10 20:50:44 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: Slips [OT] References: <00c201bfa294$5b4325d0$6e64c0d0@ajp166> <38F15501.A6A74F67@mainecoon.com> <001b01bfa2c0$d88245e0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> <38F1F7AF.B497553E@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <004101bfa358$5a6ff740$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Kennedy" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 1:17 AM Subject: Re: Slips (was Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) > Yeah, although there's a literally a few seconds there where, even > though you're at the incipient point of spin, you can drag the 150 > out -- a push with full opposite rudder and aileron works, or you can > just lower the nose and fly out the other side. That works. And in a stock 150, under our CAA rules, that's all that can be taught. A spin is now classed as an aerobatic manoeuvre and must be done only in aerobatic aircraft. Not really comfortable with that. My first exposure to a fully developed spin was in a Victa Airtourer, (looks like an AA5 with 2 seats and a central spade grip joystick.) and it is somewhat disconcerting the first couple of times you encounter it. The C150 I learned in had 2 placards about spins. The factory standard "Intentional spins with wing flaps extended are prohibited" and another added when the rules changed, "Intentional spins prohibited" > I want to say it's 40 degrees vs. 25 degrees max flaps, C150 vs. PA28, > bud I'd have to check. The Cherokee's flaps aren't a great way > to get drag, but they do help with lift, which is a good thing given that > the PA28 wants to fall out of the sky and lands fast, as opposed to the > 150 which will drift all the way into the next county and lands almost as > slow as a Cub :-) Yeah, they do float a bit, ok, a lot..:^) Never had the pleasure of flying a Cub, somewhat like an Auster I think. I've watched one of them take off from a standing start at it's tiedown into a 35kt wind across the apron, (we gave him a dispensation because he felt it was too risky to taxi crosswind to the runway.) Looks impressive....:^) We had a mini airshow here a few weeks back and we had 4 Austers and several Tiger Moths here, plus a Stearman, first one I've ever seen. Talk about a step back in time. The RAAF flew a Pilatus PC-9 (Basic trainer) up here, single gas turbine, sorta like a 2 seat Mustang on steroids. Huge contrast. It has a big brother, the PC-12 that was here same day. Same config, 3 times the size, the RFDS use it, which surprises me, since they have always used multi engine in recent times. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ: 1970476 From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Mon Apr 10 21:04:17 2000 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: Apple Mac (was: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) In-Reply-To: <20000411005322.7998.qmail@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "Apr 11, 2000 00:53:22 am" Message-ID: <20000411020422Z434089-29640+292@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > I wrote: > > Apple gave the Inside Macintosh stuff to pretty much any University or > > College that wanted it. > > > No they didn't, at least not outside the US. > [...] > > We had to buy a Lisa and the Pascal > > development environment, pretty much at list price in order to do > > any programming on the Mac. > > I never said that they gave away computers or compilers. > They didn't give away Inside Macintosh either, we had to buy it at the local bookstore. I think a large part of the problem was the attitiude. We paid close to list price, and in return we didn't get any support. If there was a sizable discount, say 30%, then this would be acceptable. But, whenever we called with problems we were told we were a University Site and weren't entitled to support (I suspect we would have got the same answer if we had paid full price). -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From pat at transarc.ibm.com Mon Apr 10 21:22:07 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: Optical Mouse Pad In-Reply-To: <009201bfa320$6dd1a500$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: When I was at CMU, the optical mouse pads for the Sun-2's and Sun-3's in the public computing clusters were always going missing. So someone came up with a PostScript file you could print that would make you a mousepad on the LaserWriter. They worked OK, though they did tend to get the mice fouled up with toner and paper dust. Wish I still had a copy of the file; I just looked in the CMU Computer Club's file archive (where I believe I'd gotten it originally, about 12 years ago...), but it seems to be gone from there... --Pat. From west at tseinc.com Mon Apr 10 21:09:16 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: 14" disc media problem? Message-ID: <000901bfa35a$f1655f80$0101a8c0@jay> I'm hoping someone can tell me something I'm missing here, cause I just can't believe what I'm seeing.... HP7900A disc drive, using the standard media for it. The media for this drive is virtually identical to an RK05 cartridge. I have 4 pieces of media. I pulled a cartridge from the stack and tried to spin up the drive. Blowers come on, but when you hit the load switch the spindle just sits there. After three days of checking all the sensors, tracing the wires, pouring over the schematics, still no go. So finally on a whim (yeah, it's the first thing I should have tried) I pulled out the cartridge, popped the cover on the drive and defeated all the sensors. The drive spindle motor started like a champ. Put the cartridge back in - no spindle motor. However, I noticed that when the cartridge is in, the relay that gives AC to the spindle motor does engage correctly, but no spindle movement. So to make a long story short, I tried the other three pieces of media I have. I put in each piece of media at least 20 times - every time the spindle starts up fine. But, put in that first piece of media, the relay engages, but the spindle sits still. What gives here? What on earth could be wrong with a media cartridge that would cause the spindle not to move? I tried lifting up the platter slightly and turning it, it seems to turn just as freely in the "bad" cartridge as in the other three. I'm just really confused - is there something I'm missing here??? Dazed and confused.... Jay West From cem14 at cornell.edu Mon Apr 10 21:27:06 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: Dallas module battery replacement... In-Reply-To: <200004110132.SAA09476@civic.hal.com> References: <200004082120.RAA20847@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000410222706.006aba68@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 06:32 PM 4/10/00 -0700, you wrote: >Technoid@cheta.net wrote: >> Depends on the make how to remake the clock batt. The SG Thompson chip I >> retrofitted a batt onto had the leads on the right side of the chip and >> they were easily exposed with a knife. > >Hi > I was thinking, one might take it to their local pc board >assembly house. Most of these places have low power xray >machines that they use to look at solder joints on >ball grid parts. A couple of snap shots at a couple >of angles would show how the battery is placed and >where the wires are. > If you had a friend at the airport, that would be another >option. Many court houses also have xray machines now days >as well. > Just a thought >Dwight Umh... makes me remember the time that I reverse-engineered a dongle that was completely coated with epoxy; I took it to a dentist for an x-ray. The dongle was actually very simple and it was done in LS. Why? well, this was a _very_ expensive program that the company I worked for had acquired, and when the dongle died the original vendor (a french firm) offered no remedy but to buy another license. This was not stipulated in the contract, and we felt that we had the right to do it. Carlos. From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 10 21:29:23 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: Dallas module battery replacement... References: <200004110132.SAA09476@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <001101bfa35d$c0fdae80$0400c0a8@winbook> Dallas used to make a "smart socket" which IIRC was a battery backed device without the device. Perhaps you could look into that and then contemplate whether you'd like to put yout device into that socket. That migh tactually have possibilities. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Dwight Elvey To: Sent: Monday, April 10, 2000 7:32 PM Subject: Re[2]: Dallas module battery replacement... > Technoid@cheta.net wrote: > > Depends on the make how to remake the clock batt. The SG Thompson chip I > > retrofitted a batt onto had the leads on the right side of the chip and > > they were easily exposed with a knife. > > Hi > I was thinking, one might take it to their local pc board > assembly house. Most of these places have low power xray > machines that they use to look at solder joints on > ball grid parts. A couple of snap shots at a couple > of angles would show how the battery is placed and > where the wires are. > If you had a friend at the airport, that would be another > option. Many court houses also have xray machines now days > as well. > Just a thought > Dwight > From mark_k at iname.com Mon Apr 10 20:14:12 2000 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: Optical Mouse Pad Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Apr 2000 Bill Pechter wrote: > > Uh, Duh. Ok, I wondered if it was an IR led but now I know it is and that > > it is working because I can get the mouse to move a teeny bit by running > > it over dense text. > > > > I think I have to make a mousepad. Any ideas on the distance between > > lines etc? -- > > Is this a Sun4 mouse or Sun3. I recently bought three padless type 4 Sun mice, with the aim of hacking one to work on my Amiga, and also as a PC bus mouse. Does type 4 mean the type that came with Sun4 workstations? How do Sun3 and Sun4 mouse pads differ? Are replacements still available? Are Mouse Systems still alive? -- Mark From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 10 21:02:22 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: Slips [OT] Message-ID: <008101bfa35b$2b74ce90$7b64c0d0@ajp166> -----Original Message----- From: Geoff Roberts >There is certainly a fairly wide variation between supposedly identical >aircraft. Training birds tend to be more out of rig. Use and abuse. Mine was never a primary trainer and has better habits. >Very. One of the guys I spoke too was literally chalk white when he got >out of the aircraft. >After years of flying a docile little Cherokee 140 he'd never >experienced either a stall related >snap or seen the effect of aileron on a dropped wing in a Cessna. My first experience with a reall snap was a C152, it was flipped at 55hrs TT. It was a really nice bird but even clean approach stalls it would violently snap to the right every time. There more about that one but I prefer to not talk about it. Suffice to say it never got to 150hrs. Most 152s do not fly like that. >About sums it up. I did a Cherokee endorsement when I moved to Broken >Hill in the 70's, and all >they had was Cherokees, I used to fly a Cherokee Arrow >(PA28-180-Retractable) home on some weekends, it was a nice ride. But >the short field performance sucked and you can't taxi them through >gates up to a house. (Both very important in a bush aircraft in this >country.) it was like landing a brick. >I did an endorsement on a Victa Airtourer (looks a bit like a 2 seat >AA5) locally (then - we sold the factory to New Zealand, then the Air I've seen one. >engine. Unusual control setup, instead of dual's it had a single stick >with a spade grip in the middle of the cockpit and a central throttle. >Easy once you get used to it. Was a lot of fun to fly, I first learnt >how to spin in that, since spins are classed as an aerobatic manouevre >in this country - and a stock C150 isn't cleared for them - they teach >you how to recover from an INCIPIENT spin instead. Not sure I'm >comfortable with that, spins are very disconcerting the first couple of >times you encounter them, it should be a requirement. >I have more hours in C150's than anything else, I liked them a lot. I feel spins are important training. That and basic acro so there are no unusual attitudes after that. Of my hours, 600 or so are in '528 my C150 and two others I trained in. It a bird I know very well right to the screws. I've flown it for 21 years and done a lot of the lighter maintenance even part of the ovehaul. >(First plane, first car, first computer, first love - they all seem to >be special) ah, yes. >One day when I am rich and famous (yeah, right) I'm going to buy me one. >I'd like the one I >learnt in if I can, last time I looked in a register VH-KQY was still >doing mustering on a station in Western Australia. Been there since 85. >At least it's still flying..... That or one of those odd aussi ag birds. Allison From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Apr 10 22:43:11 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:42 2005 Subject: Optical Mouse Pad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I had the same file somewhere but haven't been able to find it anywhere... On Mon, 10 Apr 2000, Pat Barron wrote: > When I was at CMU, the optical mouse pads for the Sun-2's and Sun-3's in > the public computing clusters were always going missing. So someone came > up with a PostScript file you could print that would make you a mousepad > on the LaserWriter. > > They worked OK, though they did tend to get the mice fouled up with toner > and paper dust. Wish I still had a copy of the file; I just looked in the > CMU Computer Club's file archive (where I believe I'd gotten it > originally, about 12 years ago...), but it seems to be gone from there... > > --Pat. > > From elvey at hal.com Mon Apr 10 22:56:47 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: Optical Mouse Pad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200004110356.UAA11393@civic.hal.com> Mark wrote: > On Mon, 10 Apr 2000 Bill Pechter wrote: > > > Uh, Duh. Ok, I wondered if it was an IR led but now I know it is and that > > > it is working because I can get the mouse to move a teeny bit by running > > > it over dense text. > > > > > > I think I have to make a mousepad. Any ideas on the distance between > > > lines etc? -- > > > > Is this a Sun4 mouse or Sun3. > > I recently bought three padless type 4 Sun mice, with the aim of hacking one > to work on my Amiga, and also as a PC bus mouse. > > Does type 4 mean the type that came with Sun4 workstations? How do Sun3 and > Sun4 mouse pads differ? Are replacements still available? Are Mouse Systems > still alive? > > > -- Mark Hi There were two types of mouse pad on the sun's we had here. I'm not sure what the difference was but I know that one type would not work on the other. One type was with a IPC. I'm not sure what the other came from. I'm currently using a Fujitsu labled roller ball mouse. I like these better than having to have the optical pad. The particular mouse I have had some design problems but I fixed mine and it has no problems now except the normal dirty ball problem. Dwight From transit at lerctr.org Mon Apr 10 23:26:24 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: Apple Mac (was: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) In-Reply-To: <20000410231837.7467.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 10 Apr 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > > Maybe not quite as bad as TI, although that $150 "developers club" affair > > is pretty close (at least to me, who was a starving college student at the > > time). > > Apple gave the Inside Macintosh stuff to pretty much any University or > College that wanted it. Oh, I'm sure the university I was going to (UC Santa Barbara) had multiple copies--locked away in some consultant's office where we mere peons...er...students couldn't get to it. > > It's easy for people to insist that documentation ought to be free, and > you can make a better case for it today (with electronic distribution) > than back in 1984, but the fact was that the $150 would barely have > covered Apple's costs. > > For comparison, how much did a DEC Orange Wall (TM) of VMS documentation > cost in 1984? I seriously doubt that DEC gave it away, and suspect that > the complete set was *much* more than $150, but I don't recall hearing > the same degree of grumbling about it. Yeah, but DEC's were hardly "personal" computers at the time. In that arena, one expected to pay substantially more than a PC owner for software and docs...and DEC's customers (large organizations of one type or another) could afford it and gladly(?) coughed it up... > > IMAO, anyone who wanted to write Mac software in 1984 and didn't because > of a supposed lack of technical documentation was simply not sufficiently > motivated. The docs were widely available. At the time, I was more interested in writing simple programs and such for the Mac, rather than tearing apart the machine and having every signal on every pin documented. But the tools just weren't there (I didn't see, for example, Microsoft BASIC for the MAC until mid-to-late 1985...) > From ss at allegro.com Mon Apr 10 23:49:52 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: HP 3000/925LX available in Hillsboro, Oregon In-Reply-To: <200004102234.PAA14934@shell1.aracnet.com> References: <200004101914.MAA21985@opus.allegro.com> Message-ID: <200004110451.VAA28145@opus.allegro.com> Date sent: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 15:34:41 -0700 Subject: Re: HP 3000/925LX available in Hillsboro, Oregon From: healyzh@aracnet.com To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Send reply to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > > Re: > > > > > I stopped in to the Hillsboro Wacky Willies about an hour ago. They had a > > > > Where's Hillsboro? (city, state?) > > Hmm, your mailer must have chopped part of the subject. > > It's in Hillsboro, Oregon (about 30 minutes from downtown Portand). > > Zane > Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From ss at allegro.com Mon Apr 10 23:50:50 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: HP 3000/925LX available in Hillsboro, Oregon In-Reply-To: <200004102234.PAA14934@shell1.aracnet.com> References: <200004101914.MAA21985@opus.allegro.com> Message-ID: <200004110452.VAA28153@opus.allegro.com> Hi, > > Where's Hillsboro? (city, state?) > > Hmm, your mailer must have chopped part of the subject. > > It's in Hillsboro, Oregon (about 30 minutes from downtown Portand).t More likely, I chopped it off mentally. I find that I don't remember the subject by the time I'm reading the message :) thanks! Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Apr 10 23:59:40 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: Slips [OT] References: <008101bfa35b$2b74ce90$7b64c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <00d101bfa372$bfe33140$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "allisonp" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 11:32 AM Subject: Re: Slips [OT] > Training birds tend to be more out of rig. Use and abuse. No argument. > Mine was never a primary trainer and has better habits. That explains a lot... > My first experience with a reall snap was a C152, it was flipped at > 55hrs TT. It was a really nice bird but even clean approach stalls > it would violently snap to the right every time. There more about > that one but I prefer to not talk about it. Suffice to say it never got > to 150hrs. Most 152s do not fly like that. Ahem. No. Sounds like there was a twist in the mainplane somewhere. Fairly common when they get overturned. > >About sums it up. I did a Cherokee endorsement when I moved to Broken > >Hill in the 70's, and all > >they had was Cherokees, I used to fly a Cherokee Arrow > >(PA28-180-Retractable) home on some weekends, it was a nice ride. But > >the short field performance sucked and you can't taxi them through > >gates up to a house. (Both very important in a bush aircraft in this > >country.) > > it was like landing a brick. That's about the size of it. Factor in a rough strip and a crosswind. It also had a slightly terrifying habit of dropping revs to about 2000rpm just after takeoff from time to time. I was left with a choice between trees and a lake on one occasion at Menindee Lakes if it hadn't recovered it's composure. Never flew that one again til they got it fixed. Story was it supposedly had a crook injector (nicest thing about the aircraft - injected engine) but it still did a similar thing to someone else after they replaced them. The engine was replaced (by popular consent amongst the Aero Club members) at time expiry, rather than being rebuilt. Problem disappeared. Still don't know what was really wrong with it, valve sticking maybe.. > >I did an endorsement on a Victa Airtourer (looks a bit like a 2 seat > >AA5) locally (then - we sold the factory to New Zealand, then the Air > > > I've seen one. Ok. > > I feel spins are important training. That and basic acro so there are no > unusual attitudes after that. Of my hours, 600 or so are in '528 my C150 > and two others I trained in. It a bird I know very well right to the > screws. > I've flown it for 21 years and done a lot of the lighter maintenance even > part of the ovehaul. Sigh. Can't lay a spanner on your own aircraft without a L.A.M.E to sign it off. You can change the oil, and the spark plugs. That's about it. Ultralights have promised to change that, and to a degree, they have, but flying is still quite expensive here. It's around AU$95 an hour in a Jabiru (rotax powered high wing, closed cabin) looks a lot like a 150 with severe malnutrition) for dual instruction, and around $70 or so hire & fly. > >learnt in if I can, last time I looked in a register VH-KQY was still > >doing mustering on a station in Western Australia. Been there since 85. > >At least it's still flying..... > > > That or one of those odd aussi ag birds. That would be a Transavia PL12 Airtruck. Looks like the result of a midair collision between a railway signal box and a Grumman AgCat. Wierd describes them. Good ag birds though. They were designed and built around 1964, with about 120 built in total, some were exported. Basically, it fell in a hole due to a lack of Government protection from cheaper imports. There's one at Jamestown about 40 miles from here. The chief designer (fellow named Millicer) designed a prototype that ultimately became the Victa Airtourer. (Trivia: Airtourers were known as 'flying lawnmowers' due to the fact that the company was best known for it's 2 stroke lawnmowers...) Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From nerdware at laidbak.com Tue Apr 11 00:04:56 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: Sun monitor to Mac cable available? Message-ID: <200004110503.AAA09794@garcon.laidbak.com> I think this might be skirting the 10 year rule, but if anyone would know or know where to look, it'd be youse guys. I was just given a 3/80, an IPC, and a 20" Sun GDM (which I assume to mean Trinitron) monitor. Is there an adapter cable that will allow me to use the monitor on one of my Macs? The IPC has a pair of NIC's in it, so I'd like to set it up as an IP router/firewall later this year when I get DSL. Always wanted a piece of Sun equipment in my network..... :o) Any help and/or pointers would be appreciated. Thanks. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Tue Apr 11 01:00:06 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: Sun monitor to Mac cable available? In-Reply-To: <200004110503.AAA09794@garcon.laidbak.com>; from Paul Braun on Tue, Apr 11, 2000 at 12:04:56AM -0500 References: <200004110503.AAA09794@garcon.laidbak.com> Message-ID: <20000410230006.E2249@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Tue, Apr 11, 2000 at 12:04:56AM -0500, Paul Braun wrote: > I was just given a 3/80, an IPC, and a 20" Sun GDM (which I > assume to mean Trinitron) monitor. Is there an adapter cable that > will allow me to use the monitor on one of my Macs? Yeah, I think so. If it has BNC's it'll be easier... the Mac-to-BNC cable is fairly common. Fry's might even have it. If not, try www.worldwyde.com... they make cards and cables to use fixed-freq. monitors with a PC, but I'm not sure about Mac stuff. -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From mark_k at iname.com Mon Apr 10 20:07:36 2000 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: List archives on web (well, gopher) Message-ID: Hi, In case it isn't common knowledge, the classiccmp list archives at the u.washington can be accessed using a gopher client or web browser at gopher://lists.u.washington.edu:70/11/public/classiccmp Presumably if someone were to submit that URL to a search engine that can handle gopher: URLs, they would be indexed... -- Mark From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Apr 11 00:53:56 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: Apple Mac In-Reply-To: <001a01bfa348$8d6f07e0$6a4be4cf@vax.vantageresearch.com> Message-ID: My two cents on Apple Mac clones. When Apple dropped support for the clones I dropped support for Apple. I still like macs, own a Motorola Starmax, but I have no plans to ever buy another Apple product. My crystal ball isn't clear enough to say how good of an idea dropping the clones was for Apple, but I can't miss the fact that it screwed me as a consumer, and sent a big batch of Apples best third party companies down the toilet and/or away from the mac. 10 years ago I was a STRONG Apple supporter, pushing Apple products to clients, and talking up people I met etc. Bit by bit Apple has done things to push me away, and now I'm gone. Platform advocacy is a dumb idea IMNSHO, and it isn't much fun anymore either. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Apr 11 01:33:36 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: Slips [OT] In-Reply-To: <002301bfa355$928376a0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> References: Message-ID: Since all of you old computer guys have had the chance to make me jealous of your hardware, I'll just mention I grew up in Chino, CA. Chino airport has a very nice collection of flying WWII aircraft as well as an outfit that converts P51 Mustangs for pilon racing. I never got to fly anything interesting, but several of my friends road/flew in the Mustangs, T33s, etc. I flew C150s out of Cable airport in Upland, CA, but haven't flown in a decade. Sure hope I didn't leave another sandwiche in my flight bag, does give you confidence in a zip lock to see a years old sandwiche still all inside the bag. From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue Apr 11 02:51:47 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: Slips [OT] References: Message-ID: <000b01bfa38a$ca438460$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Ford" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 4:03 PM Subject: Re: Slips [OT] > Since all of you old computer guys have had the chance to make me jealous > of your hardware, I'll just mention I grew up in Chino, CA. Chino airport > has a very nice collection of flying WWII aircraft as well as an outfit > that converts P51 Mustangs for pilon racing. Don't have many kites like that down here, and pylon racing is not big. (I think there was a warbird (A Harvard?) pranged enroute to one in Tasmania last year sometime.) There are a few flyable warbirds in various semi-private hands, but Mustangs, Spit's and the like are very thin on the ground. I think there are less than half a dozen Mustangs in the country, and only 2 flyable Spits. > I flew C150s out of Cable airport in Upland, CA, but haven't flown in a > decade. Been a while for me too. I miss it badly, but I just can't afford it anymore. > Sure hope I didn't leave another sandwiche in my flight bag, does > give you confidence in a zip lock to see a years old sandwiche still all > inside the bag. Whoa!! Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ: 1970476 From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Apr 11 08:24:06 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: Apple Mac (was: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) In-Reply-To: <20000410231837.7467.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: (transit@lerctr.org) Message-ID: <200004111125.e3BBP5I02366@mail2.siemens.de> Date sent: 10 Apr 2000 23:18:37 -0000 From: Eric Smith To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Apple Mac (was: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) Send reply to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Maybe not quite as bad as TI, although that $150 "developers club" affair > > is pretty close (at least to me, who was a starving college student at the > > time). > Apple gave the Inside Macintosh stuff to pretty much any University or > College that wanted it. In California, and maybe in the rest of the US, but definitly not anywhere else. > For comparison, how much did a DEC Orange Wall (TM) of VMS documentation > cost in 1984? I seriously doubt that DEC gave it away, and suspect that > the complete set was *much* more than $150, but I don't recall hearing > the same degree of grumbling about it. VMS wasn't exactly a personal system - also, it was no limitation by DEC about buying additional copies etc.pp. > IMAO, anyone who wanted to write Mac software in 1984 and didn't because > of a supposed lack of technical documentation was simply not sufficiently > motivated. The docs were widely available. Well, if money is not a hurdle, I'm gulty. Put paying ~2000 USD for a Mac and another ~2000 USD to be allowed to programm was more than just a peanut for me back than. At this price I could get an A][ and UCSD Pascal and all needed docu for less than 1/4th of this. And I don't had to prove that I'm a worthy developer. It may have been different in Ca. but over here, you where a pesant barly able to beg for the favour to be a Mac developer. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Apr 11 08:24:06 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: Apple Mac (was: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) In-Reply-To: <20000411012313Z434085-29644+274@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> References: <20000410231837.7467.qmail@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "Apr 10, 2000 11:18:37 pm" Message-ID: <200004111125.e3BBP5I02375@mail2.siemens.de> Subject: Re: Apple Mac (was: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) From: Mark Green To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date sent: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 19:23:13 -0600 (MDT) Send reply to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > Maybe not quite as bad as TI, although that $150 "developers club" affair > > > is pretty close (at least to me, who was a starving college student at the > > > time). > > Apple gave the Inside Macintosh stuff to pretty much any University or > > College that wanted it. > No they didn't, at least not outside the US. I believe we got a 10% > to 15% discount, but not much more. I started Mac development in > 1984, when they first came out. We had to buy a Lisa and the Pascal > development environment, pretty much at list price in order to do > any programming on the Mac. Within a year we were cross developing > on Unix, Apple's support for their own development environment was > so poor it wasn't worth using. Same over here in Germany - you had to pay (almost) full price for every copy of the MacPascal and for every set of Documentation (Inside MacIntosh). And you had to get the developer licence - and this was a person by person licence - you couldn't just order 10 licences for a computer class ! So Apple missed the 110% of the education market in Germany. Even remaining Apple nests have been converted to PC. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Apr 11 06:46:41 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: Sun monitor to Mac cable available? In-Reply-To: <200004110503.AAA09794@garcon.laidbak.com> Message-ID: >I was just given a 3/80, an IPC, and a 20" Sun GDM (which I You need to do a search with the full model number, GDM covers a range from hopeless to wonderful. Griffin technology is the web site I like. I'm not sure about the exact adapter you might need, but suspect either a SVGA to 13W3 cable or converter will be needed (I've seen them on eBay, ouch $30). From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Apr 11 08:27:00 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: List archives on web (well, gopher) In-Reply-To: from Mark at "Apr 11, 0 01:07:36 am" Message-ID: <200004111327.GAA12054@oa.ptloma.edu> ::In case it isn't common knowledge, the classiccmp list archives at the ::u.washington can be accessed using a gopher client or web browser at :: gopher://lists.u.washington.edu:70/11/public/classiccmp :: ::Presumably if someone were to submit that URL to a search engine that can ::handle gopher: URLs, they would be indexed... Funny you should say that. My current project is a new Veronica indexer. As of this morning, it has surpassed 1,000,000 selectors indexed. I don't think any Web search engine currently does anything with Gopher, except for EInet Galaxy and it's terribly out of date. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- How can you be in two places at once when you're not anywhere at all? -- F.T. From kmar at lle.rochester.edu Tue Apr 11 08:56:28 2000 From: kmar at lle.rochester.edu (Ken Marshall) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: Varian Data Machines In-Reply-To: <20000410221329.33409.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000411094535.00afb590@popserver.lle.rochester.edu> Will: I have a Varian 620 -100 series computer handbook which covers the 620/f-100 and 620 /L-100 machines. The computer was part of an FT-NMR spectrometer system. I still have the spectrometer, but the computer part is long gone. The manual is a small paperback, but it is packed with lots of technical information and specifications- just as the old manuals used to be. There is also a large box of binders that contain schematics for the spectrometer, and there may be some schematics for the computer mixed in with these. I know there are schematics for the computer/spectrometer control interface, because I had a student design a PC-based controller for this system a while ago and we needed this information to do it. Regards, At 04:13 PM 04/10/2000 -0600, you wrote: >Hi, >Does anyone have any docs and/or software for Varian machines, >particularly the 620/L-100 since I just got one, but any Varian stuff >would be cool. > >Will J >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > Kenneth L. Marshall Research Engineer, Optical Materials Laboratory for Laser Energetics University of Rochester 250 East River Road Rochester, NY 14623 Phone:(716)-275-8247 Fax: (716)-275-5960 From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Apr 11 09:55:36 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: 14" disc media problem? In-Reply-To: <000901bfa35a$f1655f80$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000411095536.352f3e34@mailhost.intellistar.net> Jay, Is that a single platter drive? Can you give me the part number for the media? I may be able to find some. I run across HP media occasionly. Joe At 09:09 PM 4/10/00 -0500, you wrote: >I'm hoping someone can tell me something I'm missing here, cause I just >can't believe what I'm seeing.... > >HP7900A disc drive, using the standard media for it. The media for this >drive is virtually identical to an RK05 cartridge. I have 4 pieces of media. >I pulled a cartridge from the stack and tried to spin up the drive. Blowers >come on, but when you hit the load switch the spindle just sits there. After >three days of checking all the sensors, tracing the wires, pouring over the >schematics, still no go. > >So finally on a whim (yeah, it's the first thing I should have tried) I >pulled out the cartridge, popped the cover on the drive and defeated all the >sensors. The drive spindle motor started like a champ. Put the cartridge >back in - no spindle motor. However, I noticed that when the cartridge is >in, the relay that gives AC to the spindle motor does engage correctly, but >no spindle movement. So to make a long story short, I tried the other three >pieces of media I have. I put in each piece of media at least 20 times - >every time the spindle starts up fine. But, put in that first piece of >media, the relay engages, but the spindle sits still. > >What gives here? What on earth could be wrong with a media cartridge that >would cause the spindle not to move? I tried lifting up the platter slightly >and turning it, it seems to turn just as freely in the "bad" cartridge as in >the other three. I'm just really confused - is there something I'm missing >here??? > >Dazed and confused.... > >Jay West > > From marvin at rain.org Tue Apr 11 10:05:55 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: Early Mac Startup Disks References: (transit@lerctr.org) <200004111125.e3BBP5I02366@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <38F33F53.84F3DA75@rain.org> I have a number of early Macs (128K and 512K) here that I need startup disks for. Does anyone know where I can get a copy on the Internet? If that can be done, how do I convert it from my PC that is connected to the web to Apple format? If it helps in the conversion, I also have the LC, VX, and SE/30 among other "later" models. Ideally, I would like to get the original disks for the collection, but my main concern right now are working copies. Thanks. From chris at mainecoon.com Tue Apr 11 10:20:42 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: OT: Spins (was Re: Slips [OT]) (long) References: <002301bfa355$928376a0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: <38F342CA.4BFD2C2B@mainecoon.com> Geoff Roberts wrote: > Very. One of the guys I spoke too was literally chalk white when he got > out of the aircraft. > After years of flying a docile little Cherokee 140 he'd never > experienced either a stall related > snap or seen the effect of aileron on a dropped wing in a Cessna. When I was a primary student it was standard practice to do stall training in PA28s at 3000 feet AGL. Then came the Tomahawk, with it's Really Nifty Wing (literally - it was a technical work of art) That Wasn't Built The Way The Engineers Designed Nor Like It Was On The Certification Articles Given To The FAA. Without getting mind-numbingly technical the airfoil required a stiff wing structure to work well at high angles of attack but as manufactured it was actually quite soft and would literally deform at high alpha, with the result that one wing would stall well in advance of the other in a nondeterministic and quite violent fashion. We learned that being half-a-ball out was sufficent to make the airplane perform a perfect, if uncommanded, snap entry into a spin. This discovery was made by the chief pilot of the FBO (one of these 22,000 hour Decathalon drivers who had perfected the "I hate talking to ATC" voice and made one entry a year into his log book based on how much money he made) with an eight-hour primary student in the left seat. He came boiling in off the ramp with eyes like saucers: "The...Tomahawk...IT SPINS!" Consequently all students had to demonstrate spin proficency before being allowed to solo in The Tinfoil Pig, which was an experience in itself. Unlike the 150 which has an empenage of consequence, the Tomahawk's is attached to the rest of the airframe via a stylish little wasp-waisted thing which has the structural integrity of cooked pasta. When you spin a Tomahawk it's like sitting inside a barrel while someone whacks on the side with a baseball bat; if you sneak a peek through the rear window you'll se why: the empenage deforms (well, lags behind the spin) until it gets wound up enough that it snaps back into place with a resounding "bang". The problem was eventually "fixed" through an AD which required attaching stall strips, a kludge which causes the wing to stall well in advance of it's design stall angle of attack and before the wing would start to deform (think "It's not a bug, it's a feature"). [snip] > About sums it up. I did a Cherokee endorsement when I moved to Broken > Hill in the 70's, and all > they had was Cherokees, I used to fly a Cherokee Arrow > (PA28-180-Retractable) home on some weekends, it was a nice ride. But > the short field performance sucked and you can't taxi them through > gates up to a house. (Both very important in a bush aircraft in this > country.) Which version of the 28R? The only version that I found to be a ground-loving pig was the Arrow IV with that god-awful T-tail that the marketing guys thought looked so stylish but which moved the elevator out of both the propwash and ground effect. Both short and soft field departures suffered (you could hold the yoke in your lap but the nosewheel wouldn't unweight until, oh, 40 knots) and the famous short field landing over 100' obstical for the commercial checkride was more like a carrier landing as you ran out of elevator authority just about the moment the mains touched. [snip] > I first learnt > how to spin in that, since spins are classed as an aerobatic manouevre > in this country - and a stock C150 isn't cleared for them - they teach > you how to recover from an INCIPIENT spin instead. Not sure I'm > comfortable with that, spins are very disconcerting the first couple of > times you encounter them, it should be a requirement. In the US spins aren't required for any certificate. The CFI ride requires either that you demonstrate spin competency OR have a logbook endorsement indicating that you've previously demonstrated it. In practice the only time they'll make you demo one is if you fail to harp on stall recognition and avoidance during your checkride. If you take your checkride with an FAA examiner (as opposed to the somewhat insane DE I used) they'll NEVER ask you to demo one. Part of the rational (I use the term loosely) for not teaching spins is that, according to The Commandments Handed Down By The Burning Bush Of Oklahoma City (the FAA) we are to teach stall recognition and avoidance, hence people will never see a full stall, hence they won't ever see a spin. When you ask about the classic problem of someone mashing on the rudder because they overshot their base-to-final turn you get the "well, they'd be too low to recover anyway" lecture. I'll teach them to anyone who asks, but we'll usually do wingovers and cross-control stalls first. Cheers, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 11 11:22:56 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: Sun monitor to Mac cable available? References: Message-ID: <000901bfa3d2$3366d4a0$0400c0a8@winbook> If your monitor's a GDM1950, that's just a SONY model GDM1950, common for 1280x1024, and the BNC adapter to the DE15 VGA connector often shows up at places like Best Buy for about $20. There are lots of SUN monitors, but this one's pretty common. If you're planning to use it with a MAC, there's another cable adapter that's commonly used to translate the VGA cable pinout to the MAC DA15. I see lots of these in used computer shops nowadays. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ford To: Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 5:46 AM Subject: Re: Sun monitor to Mac cable available? > >I was just given a 3/80, an IPC, and a 20" Sun GDM (which I > > You need to do a search with the full model number, GDM covers a range from > hopeless to wonderful. Griffin technology is the web site I like. I'm not > sure about the exact adapter you might need, but suspect either a SVGA to > 13W3 cable or converter will be needed (I've seen them on eBay, ouch $30). > > From g at kurico.com Tue Apr 11 11:41:43 2000 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: Early Mac Startup Disks In-Reply-To: <38F33F53.84F3DA75@rain.org> Message-ID: <38F30F77.26621.183B5623@localhost> www.mac512.com has an excellent archive of older Mac system and other software. Click on "System Showcase" to get to the old system files. They have directions on how to create actual boot disks from the images. George > I have a number of early Macs (128K and 512K) here that I need startup > disks for. Does anyone know where I can get a copy on the Internet? If > that can be done, how do I convert it from my PC that is connected to > the web to Apple format? If it helps in the conversion, I also have > the LC, VX, and SE/30 among other "later" models. Ideally, I would > like to get the original disks for the collection, but my main concern > right now are working copies. Thanks. From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Tue Apr 11 11:57:37 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: Dec at Home (was: Re: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001bfa3d7$0b6640d0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) asked: > Sort of speaking of which: did anyone ever buy any DEC equipment > for home use (Not VAXen and stuff, I'm more thinking about their > PC's such as the Rainbow?) I came this close (holding fingertips together) to buying an R100 at about 1983(?) when I was taking an Assembler class on one. By semesters end the price came down a bit but I think it was still well over 2000. While thinking it over (<2 weeks) the news came that it was discontinued and I wimped. Too bad; I didn't notice many replies to this question! P.S. I use a "Microsoft Home" mousepad as a sunlight phosphor saver on my VT320. Oh, the irony. John A. From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 11 11:54:39 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: OT: Spins (was Re: Slips [OT]) (long) In-Reply-To: <38F342CA.4BFD2C2B@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: > > When I was a primary student it was standard practice to do stall training > in PA28s at 3000 feet AGL. Then came the Tomahawk, with it's Really Nifty > Wing (literally - it was a technical work of art) That Wasn't Built The > Way The Engineers Designed Nor Like It Was On The Certification Articles > Given To The FAA. Without getting mind-numbingly technical the airfoil Traumahack it was called locally, or just the hatchet. Not loved at all. The self shortening pushrods for the valves was another feature. The Skipper (beechcraft) was however liked but slow. > Which version of the 28R? The only version that I found to be a > ground-loving pig was the Arrow IV with that god-awful T-tail that I have time in a T-tail lance... Can you say critical engine, Vmc, all in a single. One of the few that had all the worst features of the hatchet and the arrowIV. Rudder was useless below 60kts, T-tail useless below 65kts and tourque that liked to pull the nose around, loads of fun on a short field. Flew it once and refused rides in it after that. Allison From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Apr 11 14:50:52 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: ENIGMA / NEMA In-Reply-To: <005e01bfa1f3$b86ae000$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <200004111751.e3BHppd13451@mail2.siemens.de> Regarding the discusion about Enigma Prices, I came across an offer for a NEMA: http://www.gemmary.com/spec/p1249.html FYI: The Gemmary is a _very_ expensive source for old scientific gear. Grus H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From jlewczyk at his.com Tue Apr 11 13:36:57 2000 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: Early Mac Startup Disks In-Reply-To: <38F33F53.84F3DA75@rain.org> Message-ID: <000201bfa3e4$eaf41940$013da8c0@Corellian> There are disk images for all of the original Mac disks available on the web. You have several options on making the disks. Go here: http://www.mac512.com/ssdl.htm First of all, the 128K and 512K Macs were single-sided, double-density (SSDD) ,400K, 3.5" disks. You can use Double-Sided, Double-density disks (DSDD). You cannot reliably use the common Double Sided, High Density (DSHD) disks that are used on modern (?) PC and modern Macs. At first I tried and they fail miserably. The DSDD disks can be found on the web if you search for them (I got some at http://www.provantage.com 10-pack for $3.96) Once you have the proper disks, you need to have a disk drive capable of formatting and writing to them. The 400K drives were replaced with 800K drives in later 512K models and their successors, the Mac Plus and SE. Later on, "Superdrives", capable of handling both the 800K and 1.4 MB "PC" format were put into Macs. You have to place a [blank] DSDD disk into one of your Macs and "erase" [initialize / format] it for 400K (a.k.a single sided). If you are able to format it for 400K, you are in business! I know that support for 400K/800K disks is included in System 7 and earlier. Here are the steps: Download the files off the web to you PC. Make DSHD floppy with the files on them on your PC, and transfer them with a "superdrive" to your Mac's Hard drive. Format a 400K DSDD disk and copy the files to the 400K disk. You can then boot your 128K/512K Mac from that disk. ---------- An alternative is to get a startup disk for the Mac with a terminal emulator program that you can use to download files to via a serial connection between the PC and the Mac. MacTerminal 1.1 or later and Zterm are two programs that work. They can accept .bin and .hqx format files and build clickable applications on you floppy disk. Using your SE/30 or LC to make the bootable disk is a lot easier. > I have a number of early Macs (128K and 512K) here that I need startup disks > for. Does anyone know where I can get a copy on the Internet? If that can be > done, how do I convert it from my PC that is connected to the web to Apple > format? If it helps in the conversion, I also have the LC, VX, and SE/30 > among other "later" models. Ideally, I would like to get the original disks > for the collection, but my main concern right now are working copies. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Apr 11 12:41:43 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: Apple Mac (was: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) In-Reply-To: (transit@lerctr.org) References: Message-ID: <20000411174143.11812.qmail@brouhaha.com> > At the time, I was more interested in writing simple programs and such > for the Mac, rather than tearing apart the machine and having every signal > on every pin documented. But the tools just weren't there (I didn't see, > for example, Microsoft BASIC for the MAC until mid-to-late 1985...) > I can't imagine why. It was available less than a month after the computer was. I bought a copy in March 1984. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Apr 11 12:47:20 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: Apple Mac (was: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) In-Reply-To: <200004111125.e3BBP5I02366@mail2.siemens.de> (Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de) References: (transit@lerctr.org) <200004111125.e3BBP5I02366@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <20000411174720.11842.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > For comparison, how much did a DEC Orange Wall (TM) of VMS documentation > cost in 1984? I seriously doubt that DEC gave it away, and suspect that > the complete set was *much* more than $150, but I don't recall hearing > the same degree of grumbling about it. Hans wrote: > VMS wasn't exactly a personal system - also, it was no limitation > by DEC about buying additional copies etc.pp. My point was that the preliminary developer release of Inside Macintosh, at $150 for several *thousand* pages, was cheaper per page than technical docs from just about anyone else. If you don't like my VMS example, count up how many pages there were in the IBM PC Technical Reference, and divide by the cost of that. I don't remember IBM giving those away for free either. People that think technical documentation was free back in 1984 are deluding themselves. Apple may have done their share of stupid things over the years, and I'm no longer a fan, but I'm fed up with people bitching about the things that they actually did *right*. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Apr 11 15:55:22 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: Apple Mac (was: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) In-Reply-To: <20000411174720.11842.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <200004111125.e3BBP5I02366@mail2.siemens.de> (Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de) Message-ID: <200004111856.e3BIuLd29748@mail2.siemens.de> > > For comparison, how much did a DEC Orange Wall (TM) of VMS documentation > > cost in 1984? I seriously doubt that DEC gave it away, and suspect that > > the complete set was *much* more than $150, but I don't recall hearing > > the same degree of grumbling about it. > Hans wrote: > > VMS wasn't exactly a personal system - also, it was no limitation > > by DEC about buying additional copies etc.pp. > My point was that the preliminary developer release of Inside Macintosh, > at $150 for several *thousand* pages, was cheaper per page than technical > docs from just about anyone else. > If you don't like my VMS example, count up how many pages there were in > the IBM PC Technical Reference, and divide by the cost of that. I don't > remember IBM giving those away for free either. People that think > technical documentation was free back in 1984 are deluding themselves. > Apple may have done their share of stupid things over the years, and I'm > no longer a fan, but I'm fed up with people bitching about the things that > they actually did *right*. May I ask you to read my postings again ? Over here it was more like 1000 USD read: ONE THOUSAND to get the mentioned stuff! IBM Manuals where a bargain compared to Apple MAc documentation. Which was, by the way, only available in English, while IBM even offered German Manuals at the same price. It may have been an acceptable situation over in California, but for shure not in other places of this world. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 11 12:52:59 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: Apple Mac (was: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) In-Reply-To: <20000410231837.7467.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 10, 0 11:18:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1077 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000411/7d756326/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 11 12:57:47 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: HPIB to HPIL adapter In-Reply-To: <001301bfa349$dc710e00$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 10, 0 06:06:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1423 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000411/9e6c59c0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 11 13:16:00 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: 14" disc media problem? In-Reply-To: <000901bfa35a$f1655f80$0101a8c0@jay> from "Jay West" at Apr 10, 0 09:09:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2345 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000411/7c2077fe/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 11 14:41:58 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: HPIB to HPIL adapter References: Message-ID: <003b01bfa3ee$00deab40$0400c0a8@winbook> Well, I guess I'll have to look at the NI web site. I've looked for a means of deteriming basic requirements for LABVIEW drivers for instruments (like mine) which they don't support themselves. I have a TEK 'scope and logic analyzer, both GPIB capable, but for which there have apparently not been drivers written. I've also got a GPIB HDC and one of those common HP dual 3-1/2" floppy drive boxes, either of which would probably serve well as listener/loggers. It would be nice to be able to use that setup to monitor bursty events via the LA or 'scope. Is there anything worthwhile that doesn't involve National Instruments? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 11:57 AM Subject: Re: HPIB to HPIL adapter > > > > I'd be interested in knowing what support there is for GPIB on the ISA bus > > in a PC. I've got a National Instruments GPIB interface card, yet have > > never seen fit to lay out the dough for their GUI-based software. Is there > > anything out there other than LabView? I have some equipment that might > > like the GPIB, but have not had need to use it since Windows became the > > de-facto standard. Labview doesn't have drivers for the 'scope and logic > > analyzer that I'd be wanting to use. > > > > Any suggestions, preferably from someone who's actually used the stuff? > > > I've never used GPIB on a PC, but I've used it often enough on PERQs and > HP machines. And I believe that PCs can be similar. > > There is a library of subroutines (and I know that National Instruments > sells (or at least used to sell) them for common MS-DOS languages) that > allow you to do things like select a particular listener/talker on the > bus, send/receive strings to/from a device on the bus, etc. And often > allows you to do lower level things like sending particular controller > messages, do a parallel poll, etc. > > You then need the documentation on the instrument you're using. It'll > tell you want strings to send it, what commands it responds to, etc. > > Then you write a program (which in my case was always command-line based) > that calls the appropriate library routines to send/receive the right > things from the instrument. > > -tony > From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue Apr 11 14:56:53 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: MSX (Was: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) In-Reply-To: <200004102001.e3AK1hs08896@mail2.siemens.de>; from Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de on Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 10:00:50PM +0000 References: <01e001bfa0d2$99023be0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> <200004102001.e3AK1hs08896@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <20000411155653.A9853@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 10:00:50PM +0000, Hans Franke wrote: > Well, one could blame it on a US specific mood to avoide > standards in favour for short term profit - Now now, let's not get carried away with how evil US companies' motives are! Standards are not always the innocent things they seem. Very often they're engineered by gangs of little companies who are pissed off that one or two big companies came up with a de facto standard that stuck. The little guys want to force the big companies to be stripped of their market dominance even though, in at least some cases, they rightfully deserve it, having done most of the legwork to develop the relevant technology. Anyway the US is a huge market. Frankly, most of the time we have no need for international standards, because that would just mean waiting around for some far-away committee to make a bunch of arbitrary decisions before we get to use something which is ready to go *now*. DEC/Intel/Xerox Ethernet worked just fine before the IEEE decided that the headers weren't complicated enough, and IBM's floppy formats, Intel's PCI bus, Centronics's printer pinout, Shugart's disk interfaces, and Mouse Systems's (?) mouse protocol all have their flaws, but they're good enough to have survived a long time, and probably wouldn't have benefited much from giving every would-be player a chance to tack on their own pet modifications to the standard. And I can't say I'm happy at having paid way too much for a GSM-compatible cell phone which is useless in 95% of the country. GSM does exist here, but US consumers don't care about international roaming (I thought I did but the one time I tried it the cost was huge just for the phone rental and I didn't get any important calls anyway), so those services haven't done well enough to spread much. So that's a mistake I won't make again, next time I'll pick whichever cell phone company gives the best service without regard to whether I can roam to Algeria or Chile or whatever. If you live in an area with lots of tiny little countries then of course you care about how well they interoperate, but here you can go thousands of miles away and still catch the Simpsons in English on your good ol' NTSC TV set... John Wilson D Bit From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 11 15:03:10 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: Apple Mac (was: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) In-Reply-To: <20000411174720.11842.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 11, 0 05:47:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1574 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000411/573096c2/attachment.ksh From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Mon Apr 10 20:31:05 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: <20000410182600.5886.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <000c01bfa3f4$15f21e80$ade493c3@proteus> Hi, > The Macintosh models up through the Macintosh Plus were closed. >They didn't document the internal video interface because you weren't >supposed to open the box.... Absolutely, Apple's position with those machines was always that they were designed as an _appliance_ - you plugged it in, switched it on, and used it....exactly the same way you use a kettle or a VCR. This has been documented MANY times. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Mon Apr 10 20:25:38 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: Message-ID: <000b01bfa3f4$152a3aa0$ade493c3@proteus> Hi Tony, > Needless to say the disks can't be read or written on any other >machine, and the Sirius can't read/write any other sorts of disk :-( A few years ago, when I was still in touch with the "Sirius User Group", I heard about a replacement floppy controller PCB for the Sirius which allowed it to handle IBM format floppies - IIRC it was a prototype which never saw the light of day and was owned by the chap who ran the user group (I think he had two or three). I've no idea who produced it, or what formats it would handle (I assume 360K), but I believe it was scrapped as it was designed to ONLY read/write IBM format discs.... TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Mon Apr 10 20:47:48 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: Nuke Redmond! References: <007c01bfa265$1e46b450$6e64c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <000d01bfa3f4$16bb8900$ade493c3@proteus> Hi, >>....Moreover, the level of documentation available for M$ operating >>systems is, quite simply, a JOKE! > > Actually the documentation is good but also there is tons of it worse >than the vax grey wall if you try to get it all in one place.... That's very interesting, both the local college and factory I worked at had support contracts with M$ but we were unable to get much more information than what comes in the "user guide" out of them. I'd have killed for a "grey wall" back then! > I wonder... Linux is getting bigger by the day and the desktops for it >do add weight. I must admit, I'm a little concerned with the way things are headed in the Linux world right now. But then at least the underlying OS is lean and stable and you can pare down your installation any way you want. My recent Win2K test installation, OTOH, came in at well over 600Mb, and insisted on installing piles of stuff which I neither want nor use (like the accessibility options) with no way of uninstalling them....without going to a LOT of trouble anyway. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Mon Apr 10 20:54:09 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! References: <200004060530.WAA04264@shell1.aracnet.com> <3.0.2.32.20000406205206.0116974c@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: <000e01bfa3f4$1906ffa0$ade493c3@proteus> Hi, >....(for those that do not want to bother to see the site, it >describes how most graphics drivers hijack the bus in order >to improve their benchmarks; this creates problems for scsi >subsystems and digital recording). Hmm, that would certainly explain why my system *ALWAYS* crashes sooner or later when I'm playing or recording a CD - that or it's objecting to my choice in music. :-) TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Tue Apr 11 08:53:42 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z References: Message-ID: <000f01bfa3f4$1a6f1b20$ade493c3@proteus> Hi Tony, > Well, the cutouts were for whatever you wanted to use them for, >but that's one use that RML put it to. You're right of course, my brain was operating in "PC" mode.... > Tandy used to sell service manuals for every piece of their computer >equipment.... >....and could easily be order at any Tandy shop... Many of the TRS-80 manuals were available until quite recently I understand. Sadly (?) the Tandy stores here in Birmingham are all too often little more than mobile phone/radio controlled car shops these days - don't even think about asking for a catalogue.... > Heck, I even got a calculator from Tandy with a schematic in the back >of the manual.... What really got me, was that they also printed the schematic on a sticky label inside the back cover of my radio - needless to say it was so small as to be unreadable. Full marks for trying though. > Many manufacturers won't supply them at all for a number of totally >bogus reasons. What it basically comes down to is protecting their >service agents.... Quite. :-( A friend an I once tried ordering a service manual from JVC for an HRD-725EK VCR, I ended up digging one up at a rally and my friend ended up getting one from Ferguson for their version of the machine. We did manage to get some mechanical parts out of JVC though - eventually - which arrived with a letter telling us in no uncertain terms that they would not deal with us again and directing us to a service centre! Nothing like good customer service is there.... TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Tue Apr 11 09:34:02 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z References: Message-ID: <001001bfa3f4$1da40760$ade493c3@proteus> Hi, >> Interesting, does this then imply that there was a Teletext/Viewdata >>compatible graphics adapter available for the 380Z? > I don't think there was ever a true viewdata-compatible video card for >the 380Z. I've certainly never seen one. No, I've never heard of one either (hence the question). Do you know what graphics adapters were available for the machine? I only know of the 40-column VDU, the 40/80-column card and the Hi-Res option. [Interak] >> It's a nice system, not a PAL or an ASIC in sight.... > Yep, they emphasised that in the adverts. All standard chips and >great for hardware hacking ;-). That was exactly why I got it, in those days I was motivated enough to build my own cards and the Interak was IMHO the best system for that. I've never seen documentation as detailed as that provided by Greenbank for any similar system....even the Microtan 65 I had didn't come close. >>....I could do with a few prototyping cards for it. > > Aren't they just standard Eurocards? Unfortunately no. The boards are Eurocard sized, but don't use the usual DIN connector. Instead they have an edge connector etched onto the boards which plug into matching connectors on the backplane. I'm sure I read somewhere in the documentation that this was done mainly for reasons of cost. It's just a shame they didn't give you the option of using DIN connectors if desired....though I can imagine that would be awkward to arrange at the backplane end of things. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 11 15:24:14 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: HPIB to HPIL adapter In-Reply-To: <003b01bfa3ee$00deab40$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 11, 0 01:41:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2109 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000411/2e492064/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Apr 11 14:44:03 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: Apple Mac (was: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <20000411194403.12545.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Cost per page is a strange metric to use for the value of technical > information.... Only if the information content per page isn't comparable. Having read both, to a first approximation the information content per page of Inside Macintosh vs. the IBM PC Technical Reference are quite comparable. From ip500 at roanoke.infi.net Tue Apr 11 16:08:22 2000 From: ip500 at roanoke.infi.net (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: HP A400 CPU box 2436E Message-ID: <38F39446.4602A6E6@roanoke.infi.net> A local scrapper has a couple of HP 2436E versions of the HP A400 mini's. Anyone know anything about these? I'm sure they meet the 10 year rule, but probably not by much. I believe HP still referred to these as the HP 1000 systems---probably the next generation after the MX series. These are part of a medical/cardiology monitoring system but I would think he might separate them if anyone is interested. In Virginia, BTW----near Roanoke. Craig From donm at cts.com Tue Apr 11 16:32:30 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: Slips [OT] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Apr 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > Since all of you old computer guys have had the chance to make me jealous > of your hardware, I'll just mention I grew up in Chino, CA. Chino airport > has a very nice collection of flying WWII aircraft as well as an outfit > that converts P51 Mustangs for pilon racing. I never got to fly anything > interesting, but several of my friends road/flew in the Mustangs, T33s, etc. > > I flew C150s out of Cable airport in Upland, CA, but haven't flown in a > decade. Sure hope I didn't leave another sandwiche in my flight bag, does > give you confidence in a zip lock to see a years old sandwiche still all > inside the bag. Whiskers and all, eh? - don From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 11 16:23:11 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <000b01bfa3f4$152a3aa0$ade493c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Apr 11, 0 02:25:38 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 882 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000411/bab9950c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 11 16:24:27 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:43 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <000c01bfa3f4$15f21e80$ade493c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Apr 11, 0 02:31:05 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 461 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000411/aa5fa6d8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 11 16:30:11 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z In-Reply-To: <000f01bfa3f4$1a6f1b20$ade493c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Apr 11, 0 02:53:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2202 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000411/7c3d61b9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 11 16:32:31 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z In-Reply-To: <001001bfa3f4$1da40760$ade493c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Apr 11, 0 03:34:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 785 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000411/dbc8557f/attachment.ksh From aek at spies.com Tue Apr 11 17:38:47 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: Varian 620 series Message-ID: <200004112238.PAA32180@spies.com> >Hi, >Does anyone have any docs and/or software for Varian machines, >particularly the 620/L-100 since I just got one, but any Varian stuff >would be cool. http://www.spies.com/aek/orphan.html From jpl15 at netcom.com Tue Apr 11 17:43:08 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: Lunch, the HP Way Message-ID: Found elsewhere and forwarded for your possible amusement; a damn sight more OT than why not to ever get in a TraumaHawk or a Lance... (No, I wouldn't either....) ;} ---------- Forwarded message ---------- This is the story of a different kind. No melting CPU's, no screaming disc drives, just the kind of psychological torture that scars a man for life. I had a 9:00 meeting with my sales rep. I needed to buy an entire new series 70, the works. He said it'd take about an hour. Three hours later, we'd barely got the datacomm hardware down on paper, so he invited me downstairs for lunch. This was my first experience in an HP cafeteria. Above the service counter was a menu which began... MMU's (Main Menu Units) 0001A Burger. Includes sesame-seed bun. Must order comdiments 00110A seperatly 001 Deletes seeds. 002 Expands burger to two patties. 00020A Double cheeseburger, preconfigured. Includes cheese, bun and condiments. 001 Add-on bacon. 002 Delete second patty. 003 Replaces second patty with extra cheese. 00021A Burger Upgrade to Double Cheeseburger 001 From Single Burger. 002 From Double Burger. 003 Return credit for bun. 00220A Burger Bundle. Includes 00010A, 00210A and 00310A 001 Substitute root beer 00311A for cola 00310A. My eyes glazed over. I asked for a burger and a root beer. The waitress looked at me like I was an alien. "How would you like to order that, sir ?" "Quickly, if possible. Can't I just order a sandwich and a drink ?" "No sir. All our service is menu driven. Now what would you like ?" I scanned the menu. "How big is the 00010 burger ?" "The patty is rated at eight bites." "Well, how about the rest of it ?" "I dont have the specs on that, sir, but I think it's a bit more." "Eight bites is too small. Give me the Double Burger Upgrade." My sales rep interrupted. "No, you want the Single Burger option 002 'expands burger to two patties'. The double burger upgrade would give you two burgers. "But you could get return credit on the extra bun," the waitress chimed in, trying to be helpful, "although it isn't documented." I looked around to see if anybody was staring at me. There was a couple in line behind us. I recognized one of them, a guy who merely mowed me down in the parking lot with his cherry-red '62 Vette. He was talking to some woman who was waving her arms around and looking very excited. "What if... we marketed the bacon cheeseburger with the vegetable option and without the burger and cheese ? It'd be a BLT!" The woman charged off in the direction of the telephone, running steeplechases over tables and chairs. My waitress tried to get my attention again. "Have you decided, sir ?" "Yeah, give me the double burger- excuse me, I mean the 00020A with the option 001. I want everything on it." She put me down for the Condiment Expansion Kit, which included mayonnaise, mustard and pickles with a option to substitute relish. "Ketchup." I hated to ask. "I want ketchup on that, too." "Thats not a condiment, sir, it's a Tomato Product." My sales rep butted in again. "Thats not a supported configuration." "What now ?" I kept my voice steady. "Too juicy. The bun can't handle it." "Look. Forget the ketchup, just put some lettuce and tomatoes on it." The waitress backed away from the counter. "I'm sorry, sir, but thats not supported either, the bun can take it but the burger won't fit in the box. The sales rep defended himself. "Just not at first release." "It is being beta-tested, sir." I checked the overhead scree. Fries, number 000210A, option 110. French followed by option 120, English. "What the hell are English Fries ?" I turned to the sales rep. "Chips they call them. We sell a lot of them." I gave up. "OK, OK just give me a plain vanilla Burger Bundle." The confused the waitress profoundly. "Sir, Vanilla as an option is configured only for series 00450 Milkshakes." My sales rep chuckles. "No ma'am, he just wants a standard 00220A off the shelf. I wondered how long it had been on the shelf. I didn't ask. "Very good, sir." The waitress breathed a sigh off belief. "Your meal is now on order. Now how would you like it supported ?" "Support ?" She directed me to the green shaded area at the bottom of the menu, and I began a litany with my Sales Rep that I'll never forget. "Implementation assistance ?" "You get a waiter." "Implementation analysis ?" You tell him how hungry you are and he tells you what to eat." "Response Center Support ?" "He brings it to your table." "Extended materials ?" "You get refills." I stuffed some money at the waitress and told her to take it. She gave me my check on three sheets of green-bar paper. I studied it on my way to the table, and decided it'd pass as an emergency napkin. Table ? My Sales Rep had been bright enough to order us a table. He hadn't been bright enough to check on a delivery date. The table waiter slouching in his corner surveyed the crowded room, looked at me and said "Two weeks. But I can get you a standalone chair by the window right away." I handed him the tray. A woman rushed up to me with two small cups of chile and sauerkraut for the hot dog somebody else had ordered. The room began to grom dim, my eyesight faded... I woke up clutching the water-glass at my bedside table. It was five AM, four hours till my meeting with HP. I had had a vision, I did what it told me to do. I dialed my office, and I called in sick. by Stephen Harrison and Noel Magee -- end of forwarded message -- From west at tseinc.com Tue Apr 11 17:39:14 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: Lunch, the HP Way References: Message-ID: <000d01bfa406$c4561c80$0101a8c0@jay> As a certified HP sales professional (with pre-sales technical certification), I can't begin to tell you just how "on-target" that "Lunch-the-HP-way" is. It's perfect. I'm forwarding it to a couple of HP buddies of mine. I laughed for hours! (Thanks JL) Jay From jhfine at idirect.com Tue Apr 11 19:00:03 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: Apple Mac (was: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) References: Message-ID: <38F3BC83.55195E65@idirect.com> >On 10 Apr 2000, Eric Smith wrote: >>> Maybe not quite as bad as TI, although that $150 "developers club" affair >>> is pretty close (at least to me, who was a starving college student at the >>> time). >> Apple gave the Inside Macintosh stuff to pretty much any University or >> College that wanted it. >Oh, I'm sure the university I was going to (UC Santa Barbara) had multiple >copies--locked away in some consultant's office where we mere >peons...er...students couldn't get to it. Jerome Fine replies: I find it interesting that long before the stranglehold by M$ was in place, other companies were also employing tactics that we all grew to find so distasteful. Of course, since Apple never achieved the clout of M$, no one complained as hard since the practices eventually led to their downfall. Even DEC never learned that an open architecture was far more beneficial in the long run. >> It's easy for people to insist that documentation ought to be free, and >> you can make a better case for it today (with electronic distribution) >> than back in 1984, but the fact was that the $150 would barely have >> covered Apple's costs. I seem to remember that S&H charged about $ US 100 for their documentation of TSX-PLUS which was about 700 pages all together. Reasonable compared to the cost of making a copy, so probably fewer copies were made. >> For comparison, how much did a DEC Orange Wall (TM) of VMS documentation >> cost in 1984? I seriously doubt that DEC gave it away, and suspect that >> the complete set was *much* more than $150, but I don't recall hearing >> the same degree of grumbling about it. >Yeah, but DEC's were hardly "personal" computers at the time. In that >arena, one expected to pay substantially more than a PC owner for software >and docs...and DEC's customers (large organizations of one type or >another) could afford it and gladly(?) coughed it up... Since prior to about 1985, the PC was still so slow and limited, the price charged was more a reflection of how much the system was worth rather that how much it cost to produce. As a result, profit margins at the unit level were able to reflect the VERY inefficient marketing and support groups in any given company that was selling computer hardware and/or software. When the PC became a viable alternative with the introduction of the 386 and many companies began to realize that Intel would soon be bringing a 486 to market, the sales model began to shift from "low volume/high mark-up" to "high volume/low mark-up", at least on a comparative basis. So the IBM model first used (probably by IBM) to great effect started to break down at just the wrong time for DEC although Ken Olsen was obviously oblivious. It is my understanding that around 1985, the decisions that led to DEC's downfall were taken. A rather small OEM which was supplying industrial type systems using PDP-11 hardware shifted from almost all DEC in 1985 for almost all non-DEC by 1988. The primary reason was the heavy surcharges that DEC began to enforce on small OEM companies around that time. As a direct result, the "free" sales force that these companies represented for DEC was lost to DEC along with the hardware and especially software sales. While the initial result was a higher profit, total DEC sales figures seemed to stagnate shortly thereafter. I never took much interest in VMS, so I never found out just how much a DEC Orange Wall cost for VMS. Can anyone provide an answer? And just for the record, any estimate of how many single-sided pages? I do seem to remember that the last price DEC set for the DOCs for RT-11 was about $ US 1300 if purchased by themselves. That is about 9 or 10 inches of just double sided paper if all the cardboard is removed or about 3 feet if put into binders. Probably the equivalent of about 5000 single-sided pages, but I could easy be low or high by 50%. Does anyone else have an estimate? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From rhblake at bigfoot.com Tue Apr 11 19:50:00 2000 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: Dallas module battery replacement... References: <200004110132.SAA09476@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <38F3C838.8AFA369@bigfoot.com> Any reason reason you just don't replace the Dallas chip? They're easily available and if the original is soldered, put a chip socket in instead and make it a plug in. Granted they run $20 to $28 but then many other older parts still being made are a lot more out of sync in price, but needed to keep the old iron running. Dwight Elvey wrote: > Technoid@cheta.net wrote: > > Depends on the make how to remake the clock batt. The SG Thompson chip I > > retrofitted a batt onto had the leads on the right side of the chip and > > they were easily exposed with a knife. > > Hi > I was thinking, one might take it to their local pc board > assembly house. Most of these places have low power xray > machines that they use to look at solder joints on > ball grid parts. A couple of snap shots at a couple > of angles would show how the battery is placed and > where the wires are. > If you had a friend at the airport, that would be another > option. Many court houses also have xray machines now days > as well. > Just a thought > Dwight From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 11 17:48:09 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: Nuke Redmond! Message-ID: <004c01bfa417$6ac85460$7464c0d0@ajp166> -----Original Message----- From: Peter Pachla > > Actually the documentation is good but also there is tons of it worse > >than the vax grey wall if you try to get it all in one place.... > >That's very interesting, both the local college and factory I worked at had >support contracts with M$ but we were unable to get much more information >than what comes in the "user guide" out of them. Between technet Cdroms and microsoft press I have far more info about NT3.51 then I can possible use and yet I can't find what I need when (or even around when) I need it. it's so convoluted and random as to be useless. The gray wall at least has a useful index and the structure for the gray is the same as the orange before it. But then again you pay $3000 for VMS! Then again I paid nearly that for NT4 and 50 clients... and got that horrid 0.250 inch thick thing the call a book and all the helpfines I can stand on CDrom. >I must admit, I'm a little concerned with the way things are headed in the >Linux world right now. But then at least the underlying OS is lean and >stable and you can pare down your installation any way you want. My recent >Win2K test installation, OTOH, came in at well over 600Mb, and insisted on >installing piles of stuff which I neither want nor use (like the >accessibility options) with no way of uninstalling them....without going to >a LOT of trouble anyway. True, and all the bugs too! Thats why I went with NT4, it's finally mature. Allison From elvey at hal.com Tue Apr 11 21:31:14 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: Dallas module battery replacement... In-Reply-To: <38F3C838.8AFA369@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: <200004120231.TAA01657@civic.hal.com> Russ Blakeman wrote: > Any reason reason you just don't replace the Dallas chip? They're easily > available and if the original is soldered, put a chip socket in instead and > make it a plug in. Granted they run $20 to $28 but then many other older parts > still being made are a lot more out of sync in price, but needed to keep the > old iron running. > Hi Since the silicon for the smaller RAMs are not being made anymore, you can only get some of the newer, larger sizes. Other than some old shelf stock, the original ones are getting rare. An adapter socket solves this but hacking open an epoxy module can be a fun thing to do. One does need to attack with care. Cutting open a lithium battery that may still have some un-reacted lithium can be a finger burning experience. Have a glass of vegetable oil handy. If you do cut into it and it lights off, dropping it into the oil would be better than the couch. Don't drop it in water, this can be explosive. Dwight From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue Apr 11 22:08:50 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: Apple Mac (was: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) In-Reply-To: <38F3BC83.55195E65@idirect.com>; from jhfine@idirect.com on Tue, Apr 11, 2000 at 08:00:03PM -0400 References: <38F3BC83.55195E65@idirect.com> Message-ID: <20000411230850.A11174@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Apr 11, 2000 at 08:00:03PM -0400, Jerome Fine wrote: > Even DEC never learned that an open architecture was far more > beneficial in the long run. What I find interesting is that Apple, DEC, and IBM were all vey successful at marketing their open architecture machines *first*, and only later decided to switch to proprietary machines (at least within the markets we're talking about), and they all got sat on as a result. How can Apple have been so blind as to not realize that those pitiful 50-pin sockets with the weird interface and funny lopsided cards were the main reason for the ]['s success. IBM was obviously copying that idea, but even after changing the formula screwed Apple up, IBM followed suit and tried to talk us all into switching to MCA. By the time they came back to us, they were reduced to referring to the familiar slots as "industry standard", when earlier the rest of the industry had called the same thing "IBM compatible". Introducing the AT-386 motherboards was a stroke of genius on Intel's part, since that steered the clone makers back towards the open ISA bus and I think the 80x86 market would never have blossomed the way it did if IBM had been successful in diverting it. > I never took much interest in VMS, so I never found out just how much > a DEC Orange Wall cost for VMS. Can anyone provide an answer? I don't know either, but I assume that like the other OSes, DEC forced you to buy the doc set along with the binaries whether you wanted it or not. If that's correct then the cost of the documentation isn't really much of an issue -- if you couldn't afford the docs, you couldn't afford the system in the first place. The VMS sites I've been at certainly had access to full programming docs, even if there was only the one copy. As for Apple not documenting things just to make sure the applications were all well-behaved, that wasn't quite a smashing success. A lot of things slipped through anyway which had to be sorted out later -- original programs could get away with not being 32-bit clean (thanks to the 68000's 24-bit addressing), or they could have hard-wired dependences on a 512x342 screen size. And IIRC there was a little trouble when the Mac II came out with folks who assumed that it and all future machines would use color displays... John Wilson D Bit From jpero at cgocable.net Tue Apr 11 18:25:49 2000 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: Dallas module battery replacement... In-Reply-To: <200004120231.TAA01657@civic.hal.com> References: <38F3C838.8AFA369@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: <200004120321.e3C3Lwr14980@admin.cgocable.net> > From: Dwight Elvey > Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:31:14 -0700 (PDT) > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re[2]: Dallas module battery replacement... > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Russ Blakeman wrote: > Hi > with care. Cutting open a lithium battery that may still > have some un-reacted lithium can be a finger burning > experience. Have a glass of vegetable oil handy. If > you do cut into it and it lights off, dropping it into > the oil would be better than the couch. Don't drop > it in water, this can be explosive. Lithium is unstable and reacts violently grabbing all the oxygen via electron sharings turning into stable lithium oxide. In air, slow reaction, water or oxygen gas, BANG! Grabbing the electrons that oxygen posseses breaks the H2O apart and liberated H + any loose O2 = fire, combining Li and several O gives off heat. That is just basics. Learned that from my high school chemistry. Loved it that fact one can take two or more basic elements and "build" a formula that describes the reaction and the end results. What helps this learning that chemisty stuff because teacher was good one. > Dwight Ethan will confirm because I supplied him different dallas ICs even they're double data space of what old one it replaced didn't work. But clones boards don't care what kind of 3 types: 12887A, 12887B and 12B887's. Most didn't work in his Dec stuff, they must be 1287A's I think. Diffculties to get exact replacements and cost is what drives this cutting open to get at battery. Same here. Wizard From hallsf at alfredtech.edu Tue Apr 11 23:50:48 2000 From: hallsf at alfredtech.edu (Scott F. Hall) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: stibitz.adder References: <200004080129.VAA20258@zephyr.cacm.org> Message-ID: <38F400A8.1C83ABC@alfredtech.edu> For the heck of it, I've tried to design an electro-mechanical binary adder that can automatically do the carry of the one that arises in 1 + 1 = 10. Of course, you reply, "George Stibitz's already did that in 1937 as you see here..." http://www.toronto-montessori.on.ca/bsutherland/electricity/stibitz.html But hey: this is retrocomputing, after all, and I'm not trying to duplicate Stibitz--my aim is to come up with an electro-mechanical binary adder architecture that's even simpler than his 2 switches, 2 bulbs, 2 batteries, and 2 relays version. I think I've done it using 3 switches, 4 bulbs, and 1 battery. Yes, still eight components but because it lacks the relays, I think it's definitely simpler and therefore a kind of retro-breakthrough. And yes, mine does carry the one for 1 + 1 = 10. Feel free to try building this (or better it if you can with even fewer components). But I do have a stupid question for everyone that exposes the holes in my education: if my adder can successfully do all of the below calculations but no more 0 + 0 = 0 0 + 1 = 1 0 + 10 = 10 0 + 11 = 11 1 + 0 = 1 1 + 1 = 10 1 + 10 = 11 10 + 0 = 10 10 + 1 = 11 11 + 0 = 11 have I constructed a 1-bit binary adder or a 2-bit binary adder? Thanks, S.F. Hall From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Apr 11 23:25:05 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: stibitz.adder In-Reply-To: <38F400A8.1C83ABC@alfredtech.edu> (hallsf@alfredtech.edu) References: <200004080129.VAA20258@zephyr.cacm.org> <38F400A8.1C83ABC@alfredtech.edu> Message-ID: <20000412042505.14850.qmail@brouhaha.com> > have I constructed a 1-bit binary adder or a 2-bit binary adder? 1-bit. A 2-bit adder has three bits of output and handles six more cases: 01 + 11 = 100 10 + 10 = 100 10 + 11 = 101 11 + 01 = 100 11 + 10 = 101 11 + 11 = 110 However, it still sounds like fun! Logically a 2-bit adder can be decomposed into two one-bit full adders, each with the following truth table: A B Cin Cout Q -------- ------ 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 1 1 1 1 1 The least significant stage of the mutli-bit adder can be simpler since there is (usually) no carry-in: A B Cout Q ---- ------ 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 1 1 0 This is exactly what George Stibitz's Model K does. Note that this can be implemented with no relays if the inputs are only from switches (not the outputs of other circuits), by using three-pole double-throw switches. (I'm not going to try to draw ascii art unless someone requests it.) So an interesting challenge would be to minimize the circuit for the full adder, given that the A and B inputs are from switches, but the C input is an electrical input from the lower-order stage. I think at least one relay is needed, to act as an inverter for the carry-in stage. Eric From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Apr 12 00:18:57 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: Apple Mac (was: !Re: Nuke Redmond!) In-Reply-To: <20000411230850.A11174@dbit.dbit.com> References: <38F3BC83.55195E65@idirect.com>; from jhfine@idirect.com on Tue, Apr 11, 2000 at 08:00:03PM -0400 <38F3BC83.55195E65@idirect.com> Message-ID: >What I find interesting is that Apple, DEC, and IBM were all vey successful >at marketing their open architecture machines *first*, and only later decided >to switch to proprietary machines (at least within the markets we're talking >about), and they all got sat on as a result. How can Apple have been so >blind as to not realize that those pitiful 50-pin sockets with the weird One word, GREED. The list of companies that have shot themselves in the foot over trying to squeeze more money out of a product is a LOT longer. From spc at armigeron.com Wed Apr 12 02:37:05 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: A disturbing conversation about documentation Message-ID: <200004120737.DAA23826@armigeron.com> While not exactly on topic for this list, it does have some relavance I think. I just got done talking with a friend about the lack of documentation in this industry. I mentioned the arguments I thought for it: the ``our competition will steal our ideas'' or ``our hardware/software is so bad we don't want anyone to know about it.'' My friend had another reason: companies are afraid to release documentation because most of it is inaccurate, incomplete, confusing, or just doesn't exist within the company. Or their products use third party vendor parts that themselves, are not documented or require thick layers of NDAs to even see (``I work here and I was told to get a copy of our business procedures.'' ``Are you a manager?'' ``No. I'm an engineer.'' ``Then I'm sorry, but you are not allowed to see our business procedures.'' ``But I work here!'' ``I'm sorry, but they're proprietary, and with proper management approval, you can't have them.'' ``But I was told I have to follow them!'' ``Yes, you do.'' ``But what are they?'' ``I'm sorry, but that's proprietary information.'') My friend even went on to relate a story that happened within his company: FRIEND: Yes, I'd like to use our XYZ chip. COW-ORKER: I'm sorry, but the engineer responsible for the XYZ chip died last year and no one knows how it works or even how to make it anymore. FRIEND: There was no documentation? COW-ORKER: Hahahahahahaha! You haven't worked here that long, have you? -spc (We're doomed! We're doomed I say!) From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 12 04:56:51 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: HPIB to HPIL adapter References: Message-ID: <001b01bfa465$6e33bd80$0400c0a8@winbook> Please see embedded comments below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 2:24 PM Subject: Re: HPIB to HPIL adapter > > > > Well, I guess I'll have to look at the NI web site. I've looked for a means > > of deteriming basic requirements for LABVIEW drivers for instruments (like > > mine) which they don't support themselves. I have a TEK 'scope and logic > > analyzer, both GPIB capable, but for which there have apparently not been > > Forget about Labview and its drivers... > That's my inclination as well. It's just that numerous local companies use it in their testing and are willing to pay almost excessive (if it's what they pay me it's not excessive) rates for people to write scripts and drivers for Labview to drive their instruments. Many of them are already supported, but the new drivers are worth something. > > I'm suggesting you go one level lower and talk to the instruments > directly. That is to say that you send them a command (as in bytes over > the GPIB interface ) and read data back. You're going to have to figure > out what commands to send and what you'll get back. > Yes, that's described in the manuals. I expect there'll be plenty of surprises, though. > > At one time this information was clearly presented in the user manual for > the instrument. Nowadays you probably have to look in a 'programmers > manual' or 'technical manual', but it should be available, especially > for instruments from Tektronix or HP. > Well I have the doc's for my TEK instruments. The HP stuff may not be on the web any more, but I imagine I can find it. The MSC HDC will need a little work, but it is pretty simple. > > > drivers written. I've also got a GPIB HDC and one of those common HP dual > > 3-1/2" floppy drive boxes, either of which would probably serve well as > > listener/loggers. It would be nice to be able to use that setup to monitor > > You do realise that you're going to need a controller (== computer most > of the time) on the GPIB. Linking the 'scope to the HP drive box without > also linking in a controller won't do anything. I know for a fact that HP > disk drives never operate as controllers and I doubt very much in 'scopes > do either. Oh, yes. The PC will do that, but at some point in the future, I might want to make up a little controller board with the necessary firmware to make it able to initialize and poll, etc, and then do some specific task. I still have a couple of those 9114's from T.I. > > And if you have a computer on the GPIB, you might as well log the data to > its disk drive. > It's not as portable, but if portability isn't a factor, that would be my choice. > > > bursty events via the LA or 'scope. > > > > Is there anything worthwhile that doesn't involve National Instruments? > > Yes. Write the library yourself ;-). I've done it (not on a PC, though)-- > it's not that hard if you've got data on the GPIB card. All you really > need (at least for simple stuff) is the equivalent of putc() and getc() > for the GPIB bus and the ability to send controller commands (which for > simple stuff translates to putc_with_ATN_asserted(). Maybe the > ability to assert REN. Those 4 functions will let you talk to most GPIB > instruments, at least for simple applications. > Somehow I think folks will be more interested in having this done via Labview or some similar suite. I'm quite sure there are GPIB card vendors for the PC beyond N.I. Surely there's something besides LabView that's just as useful. If not, it will be necessary for me to look at whatever I can find to enable me to prepare drivers for various instruments or, the "generic" instrument, by using stubs for the appropriate device-specific stuff. Writing test procedures in low-level/command line constructs is a bit too primitive for the typical manager, and they're the one who sign the check. > > -tony > From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Apr 12 07:26:14 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: stibitz.adder In-Reply-To: <38F400A8.1C83ABC@alfredtech.edu> Message-ID: What you have done is a 1bit full adder with carry in. It's not quite two bits and not limited to one bit pair. Allison On Tue, 11 Apr 2000, Scott F. Hall wrote: > For the heck of it, I've tried to design an electro-mechanical binary > adder that can automatically do the carry of the one that arises in 1 + > 1 = 10. Of course, you reply, "George Stibitz's already did that in > 1937 as you see here..." > > http://www.toronto-montessori.on.ca/bsutherland/electricity/stibitz.html > > But hey: this is retrocomputing, after all, and I'm not trying to > duplicate Stibitz--my aim is to come up with an electro-mechanical > binary adder architecture that's even simpler than his 2 switches, 2 > bulbs, 2 batteries, and 2 relays version. > > I think I've done it using 3 switches, 4 bulbs, and 1 battery. Yes, > still eight components but because it lacks the relays, I think it's > definitely simpler and therefore a kind of retro-breakthrough. And yes, > mine does carry the one for 1 + 1 = 10. Feel free to try building this > (or better it if you can with even fewer components). > > But I do have a stupid question for everyone that exposes the holes in > my education: if my adder can successfully do all of the below > calculations but no more > > 0 + 0 = 0 > 0 + 1 = 1 > 0 + 10 = 10 > 0 + 11 = 11 > 1 + 0 = 1 > 1 + 1 = 10 > 1 + 10 = 11 > 10 + 0 = 10 > 10 + 1 = 11 > 11 + 0 = 11 > > have I constructed a 1-bit binary adder or a 2-bit binary adder? > > Thanks, > > S.F. Hall > From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Apr 12 07:43:02 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: HPIB to HPIL adapter In-Reply-To: <001b01bfa465$6e33bd80$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: > > Forget about Labview and its drivers... > > > That's my inclination as well. It's just that numerous local companies use > it in their testing and are willing to pay almost excessive (if it's what > they pay me it's not excessive) rates for people to write scripts and > drivers for Labview to drive their instruments. Many of them are already > supported, but the new drivers are worth something. Forget labview also. We don't use it. We do however use the base drives that come with the gpib cards, they usually have pascal, C, Qbasic and a few other versions in the set. They only get you on to and off of the bus and what you say to the address instrument and it's replies have to be known and part of the higher level code. It's pretty trivial but does require knowing the controlled instrument "language". > Oh, yes. The PC will do that, but at some point in the future, I might want > to make up a little controller board with the necessary firmware to make it > able to initialize and poll, etc, and then do some specific task. I still > have a couple of those 9114's from T.I. NEC 7210 is a good part if you can find them. > Somehow I think folks will be more interested in having this done via > Labview or some similar suite. I'm quite sure there are GPIB card vendors > for the PC beyond N.I. Surely there's something besides LabView that's just Several, not much differene in them. Not cheap either! > as useful. If not, it will be necessary for me to look at whatever I can > find to enable me to prepare drivers for various instruments or, the > "generic" instrument, by using stubs for the appropriate device-specific You need a gpib driver (like driving a NIC) and then a high level driver that will be instrument specific. We have about different ones to accomodate each one of the different DMMs we use! For example the Keithley 199 uses one format, k2000 a different one and the 2001 either! then the new HP we got is of course different... grrr! Allison From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Apr 12 08:02:10 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: A disturbing conversation about documentation In-Reply-To: <200004120737.DAA23826@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000412075411.021b12a0@pc> For a dozen years I closely followed the 3D computer graphics market, supporting 3D file formats in my multi-format conversion software. These were key products from large companies like SGI, Autodesk, even Microsoft Softimage, big flight-sim companies, etc. I spent a great deal of time chasing down their documentation. It often didn't exist. Much of the time, there was an out-of-date document, or an unchecked document. In typical programmer style, the "documentation" consisted of poorly commented, non-portable code. When it came time for Autodesk to bow to pressure to support tools for programming that could massage its DWG drawing file format, they bought out a much smaller company who'd reverse-engineered the format without Autodesk's cooperation, and often in the face of outright public antagonism. Documentation is the first component tossed by the wayside when deadlines are approaching too quickly. - John From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 12 09:14:47 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: stibitz.adder References: Message-ID: <000e01bfa489$7bbe3100$0400c0a8@winbook> Doesn't a full-adder have 3 inputs and two outputs any more? After all, the three bits can't generate a sum of more than two bits. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: ; Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 6:26 AM Subject: Re: stibitz.adder > What you have done is a 1bit full adder with carry in. It's not quite two > bits and not limited to one bit pair. > > Allison > > > > > On Tue, 11 Apr 2000, Scott F. Hall wrote: > > > For the heck of it, I've tried to design an electro-mechanical binary > > adder that can automatically do the carry of the one that arises in 1 + > > 1 = 10. Of course, you reply, "George Stibitz's already did that in > > 1937 as you see here..." > > > > http://www.toronto-montessori.on.ca/bsutherland/electricity/stibitz.html > > > > But hey: this is retrocomputing, after all, and I'm not trying to > > duplicate Stibitz--my aim is to come up with an electro-mechanical > > binary adder architecture that's even simpler than his 2 switches, 2 > > bulbs, 2 batteries, and 2 relays version. > > > > I think I've done it using 3 switches, 4 bulbs, and 1 battery. Yes, > > still eight components but because it lacks the relays, I think it's > > definitely simpler and therefore a kind of retro-breakthrough. And yes, > > mine does carry the one for 1 + 1 = 10. Feel free to try building this > > (or better it if you can with even fewer components). > > > > But I do have a stupid question for everyone that exposes the holes in > > my education: if my adder can successfully do all of the below > > calculations but no more > > > > 0 + 0 = 0 > > 0 + 1 = 1 > > 0 + 10 = 10 > > 0 + 11 = 11 > > 1 + 0 = 1 > > 1 + 1 = 10 > > 1 + 10 = 11 > > 10 + 0 = 10 > > 10 + 1 = 11 > > 11 + 0 = 11 > > > > have I constructed a 1-bit binary adder or a 2-bit binary adder? > > > > Thanks, > > > > S.F. Hall > > > From steverob at hotoffice.com Wed Apr 12 09:26:34 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: A disturbing conversation about documentation Message-ID: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D63AB8FA@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> > > Documentation is the first component tossed by the wayside > when deadlines are approaching too quickly. > > - John Actually, the first thing that gets tossed is the development "process". As a Quality Assurance Engineer, this is an issue that I have to deal with *every* single day. Frankly, I don't expect it to get any better. :-( If anyone cares to continue the discussion, I'll be glad to elaborate... Steve Robertson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000412/17256b4a/attachment.html From ghldbrd at ccp.com Wed Apr 12 15:22:46 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: A disturbing conversation about documentation In-Reply-To: <200004120737.DAA23826@armigeron.com> Message-ID: Hello Sean On 12-Apr-00, you wrote: > > While not exactly on topic for this list, it does have some relavance I > think. I just got done talking with a friend about the lack of > documentation in this industry. I mentioned the arguments I thought for it: > the ``our competition will steal our ideas'' or ``our hardware/software is > so bad we don't want anyone to know about it.'' > > My friend had another reason: companies are afraid to release > documentation because most of it is inaccurate, incomplete, confusing, or > just doesn't exist within the company. Or their products use third party > vendor parts that themselves, are not documented or require thick layers of > NDAs to even see (``I work here and I was told to get a copy of our business > procedures.'' ``Are you a manager?'' ``No. I'm an engineer.'' ``Then I'm > sorry, but you are not allowed to see our business procedures.'' ``But I > work here!'' ``I'm sorry, but they're proprietary, and with proper > management approval, you can't have them.'' ``But I was told I have to > follow them!'' ``Yes, you do.'' ``But what are they?'' ``I'm sorry, but > that's proprietary information.'') > > My friend even went on to relate a story that happened within his company: > > FRIEND: Yes, I'd like to use our XYZ chip. > > COW-ORKER: I'm sorry, but the engineer responsible for the XYZ chip > died last year and no one knows how it works or even how to > make it anymore. > > FRIEND: There was no documentation? > > COW-ORKER: Hahahahahahaha! You haven't worked here that long, have > you? > > -spc (We're doomed! We're doomed I say!) > Doesn't this remind us of a comic strip named Dilbert?? Happens everywhere these days . . . . Gary Hildebrand amigaphile From rmeenaks at olf.com Wed Apr 12 09:52:16 2000 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: Scanning out-of-print books and documentation Message-ID: Hi, I want to start scanning some of the transputer books and manuals that I have. A lot if not all are out-of-print. If I scan them and put them on the net, do I have to worry about copyright laws, etc. Would I get into any trouble?? What is the current policy on this?? I know several of you guys scanned several books/documentation/manuals etc for various machines. Any help in this would be appreciated. Oh, what about old software too. Thanks. Ram From pat at transarc.ibm.com Wed Apr 12 10:15:00 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: Scanning out-of-print books and documentation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Apr 2000, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > I want to start scanning some of the transputer books and manuals that I > have. A lot if not all are out-of-print. If I scan them and put them on > the net, do I have to worry about copyright laws, etc. Would I get into any > trouble?? What is the current policy on this?? I know several of you guys > scanned several books/documentation/manuals etc for various machines. Any > help in this would be appreciated. Oh, what about old software too. Whether it's out of print or not, if it's copyrighted, you need permission from the copyright holder before you do this. Even if the company that registered the copyright is out of business - if the company's assets were liquidated, the copyright was transferred to someone. So, you need to locate the copyright holder(s) and get permission. The hardest part (especially for old stuff) might be finding the copyright holder. Find them, and get them to send you permission (in writing, if at all possible) before you put their docs up on the web. You could very well find them to be receptive to your request. One exception seems to be DEC/Compaq, as they apparently gave blanket permission to reproduce documentation for out-of-production hardware. Don't know what Compaq's current stand on this is, though ... --Pat. From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Wed Apr 12 10:22:22 2000 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: Scanning out-of-print books and documentation In-Reply-To: ; from rmeenaks@olf.com on Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 10:52:16AM -0400 References: Message-ID: <20000412112222.K931@alcor.concordia.ca> On Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 10:52:16AM -0400, Ram Meenakshisundaram (rmeenaks@olf.com) wrote: > Hi, > > I want to start scanning some of the transputer books and manuals that I > have. A lot if not all are out-of-print. If I scan them and put them on > the net, do I have to worry about copyright laws, etc. Would I get into any > trouble?? What is the current policy on this?? Depends very much on where you are. If you're in a country that respects the Berne Convention (which most Western nations do), then you need to get permission from the copyright holder, or wait until the document becomes public domain. Keep in mind that absence of a copyright notice doesn't mean absence of copyright. There's an American "Copyright Crash Course" at http://www.utsystem.edu/OGC/IntellectualProperty/cprtindx.htm which is educational and entertaining, and the Copyright Myths FAQ is a mustread, too, at http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html > I know several of you guys scanned several > books/documentation/manuals etc for various machines. Any help in > this would be appreciated. Oh, what about old software too. Software is also intellectual property, and this is copyrighted as well. (Disclaimers: I am not a lawyer, and I am not American.) -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed Apr 12 10:41:17 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: Scanning out-of-print books and documentation References: Message-ID: <20000412153645.74251.qmail@hotmail.com> Generally, if the publisher of the book or manual is still in business, they still own the copyright for the next 80 or so years. They tend to get upset if you redistribute it free of charge. However, if the book hasn't been published in quite a long time, the publisher won't care quite as much (I.E. it's hard to prove damages in court if you haven't published the book in question for 10 years, especially for outdated hardware) Check the publisher's website, amazon.com, fatbrain.com, etc... to see if it still in print or available. Better yet ask the publisher if you can redistribute it. I've seen many websites with reproduced instruction cards and owner's manuals with consent of the publisher. Just make sure all the (TM)s and (R)s are in the right places. Good luck. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ram Meenakshisundaram" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 10:52 AM Subject: Scanning out-of-print books and documentation > Hi, > > I want to start scanning some of the transputer books and manuals that I > have. A lot if not all are out-of-print. If I scan them and put them on > the net, do I have to worry about copyright laws, etc. Would I get into any > trouble?? What is the current policy on this?? I know several of you guys > scanned several books/documentation/manuals etc for various machines. Any > help in this would be appreciated. Oh, what about old software too. > Thanks. > > Ram > > From kla at helios.augustana.edu Wed Apr 12 10:37:32 2000 From: kla at helios.augustana.edu (Kevin L. Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: Dallas battery replacement -- what is it? Message-ID: Forgive me for asking, but would someone please reply OFFLINE to me with an answer to this question -- what is this Dallas battery replacement that a bunch of notes were about? I somehow missed (did not read) the start of it, and just to educate my mind (put it at rest), I would like to know what you are in fact talking about. Why should I know about this? Thank you. Cheers. Kevin * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Kevin L. Anderson Ph.D., Geography Department, Augustana College Rock Island, Illinois 61201-2296, USA phone: (309) 794-7325 e-mail: kla@helios.augustana.edu -or- gganderson@augustana.edu * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Opinions expressed here are my own and do not represent the administration of Augustana College. From kla at helios.augustana.edu Wed Apr 12 10:56:38 2000 From: kla at helios.augustana.edu (Kevin L. Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: OT Comments -- Unix documentation / speed question Message-ID: This is clearly off-topic compared to 10-year+ old computers, so reply off-line if so inclined. (An observation -- since this list moved to its new site, the topics of discussion, plus the volume, has clearly taken a turn -- much for off-topic notes, such as my own, plus much more opinionated notes. A trend I've observed on other lists that moved their location. I wonder why that is so....) My few opinions include: While I was never a VMS or other DEC programmer, and hence never saw the "orange" or "gray" walls of documentation, I was for a time a Sun/Unix programmer. So I did see Sun's "green and white" wall of SunOS documentation -- about 3-4 four feet long of four- inch binders. It was a very good resource that was quickly augmented by a selected few Unix administration third-party books. With later version of SunOS, as well as the early Solaris releases, this same material was on a CD as postscript files -- another useful source (their so-called AnswerBook, which I never did actually install per se, but just read it directly using pageview PS viewing software). They mucked it up however with the release of Solaris 2.6, changing the AnswerBook format and making it much less useful. At the same time they significantly modified the Unix install procedure, using instead of a quick-loading mini-root from CD a very slow loading graphic shell -- yuck. Moves by Sun that I was thrilled about, despite their making Solaris cheaper for so- called developers. I have RedHat Linux 6 and I am not happy. I was very dismayed to see how big the loaded version was, which very quickly filled 400+ MB of material onto my 540MB hard drive with just basic stuff, and it seems to run slow to boot (including very slow to boot-up). In contrast, when I earlier played with FreeBSD (2.2.5), that seemed to be a lean and mean, fast running system on a comparable 486-33 that I have the Linux on. Software bloat is most definitely an issue -- and unless you REALLY KNOW Unix, it is tough (like for Win9x) to know which files can be trimmed away. And reliance on package installs/removes doesn't help, as they don't tell you of Unix dependencies in their documentation, hence a growing problem like for WinDoze. Not good I think. Now to my question -- Has anyone actually done an speed comparison between Linux, FreeBSD, and NetBSD? My impression (from limited exposure) is that BSD-based kernel versions run much faster (and are generally smaller in size) than comparable SYS-V or Linux systems. That comment stems from comparisons of SunOS and Solaris on comparable Sun systems, followed by FreeBSD and Linux on comparable 486 systems. In particular, I would like to know how FreeBSD compares to the more open (cross-platform) implementation in NetBSD. This is clearly off-topic, so reply offline. Thanks. Cheers. Kevin * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Kevin L. Anderson Ph.D., Geography Department, Augustana College Rock Island, Illinois 61201-2296, USA phone: (309) 794-7325 e-mail: kla@helios.augustana.edu -or- gganderson@augustana.edu * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Opinions expressed here are my own and do not represent the administration of Augustana College. From rivie at teraglobal.com Wed Apr 12 11:19:34 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: DEC blanket permission was: Re: Scanning out-of-print books and documentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >One exception seems to be DEC/Compaq, as they apparently gave blanket >permission to reproduce documentation for out-of-production hardware. >Don't know what Compaq's current stand on this is, though ... I'm curious about the extent of this blanket permission. I have a number of very interesting DEC documents for out-of-production hardware. For example, I see continuous discussion of initializing the CPU of the VAXstation 4000/VLC over on the NetBSD port-vax mailing list. I happen to have a copy of the technical manual for the SOC CPU, the processor used in the 4000/VLC. Somehow, I doubt this manual is covered by the DEC blanket permission. One document that I'm fairly certain is not covered by the blanket permission is a copy of the MSCP specification (!) that I have tucked away in a drawer somewhere. Is DEC still making MSCP hardware? Everything I've used recently has been SCSI. -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Apr 12 11:33:48 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: OT Comments -- Unix documentation / speed question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > While I was never a VMS or other DEC programmer, and hence never > saw the "orange" or "gray" walls of documentation, I was for a > time a Sun/Unix programmer. So I did see Sun's "green and white" > wall of SunOS documentation -- about 3-4 four feet long of four- > inch binders. It was a very good resource that was quickly Very similar.... > I have RedHat Linux 6 and I am not happy. I was very dismayed to > see how big the loaded version was, which very quickly filled > 400+ MB of material onto my 540MB hard drive with just basic > stuff, and it seems to run slow to boot (including very slow to Same for rh5.2, I may add it didn't seem any faster than NT4/ws either. > boot-up). In contrast, when I earlier played with FreeBSD (2.2.5), > that seemed to be a lean and mean, fast running system on a I have 2.2.6 and it's faster, much faster! I'm currently running it on a 386sx/16 and it's amazingly useful even with 4mb ram. > comparable 486-33 that I have the Linux on. Software bloat is > most definitely an issue -- and unless you REALLY KNOW Unix, it is > tough (like for Win9x) to know which files can be trimmed away. > And reliance on package installs/removes doesn't help, as they > don't tell you of Unix dependencies in their documentation, hence > a growing problem like for WinDoze. Not good I think. Both winders and packaed linux offer installations in custome mode and using that makes a difference. I regualy build printservers using old 120mb disks (60mb free!) using W95osr2 after custom install and pruning off crud like IE, MSN, Exchange that aren't needed. > Has anyone actually done an speed comparison between Linux, FreeBSD, > and NetBSD? I did one for Freebsd and linux for my use as possible candidate against NT4 server. > My impression (from limited exposure) is that BSD-based kernel > versions run much faster (and are generally smaller in size) than > comparable SYS-V or Linux systems. That comment stems from yes, they are lighter to a point. if you build linux for a specific system it's close. > In particular, I would like to know how FreeBSD compares to the > more open (cross-platform) implementation in NetBSD. My $0.02: Linux freely available and supported. Weak config control. Netbsd, runs on anything. Freebsd, strong, robust, good security, does not run everything not as pretty for the desktop. In the end they lost to NT4/SP4 as I needed to host 40 W95 clients. Linux is not quite ready for W95 user desktops.. yet. Allison From pat at transarc.ibm.com Wed Apr 12 11:45:11 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: DEC blanket permission was: Re: Scanning out-of-print books and documentation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Apr 2000, Roger Ivie wrote: > > One document that I'm fairly certain is not covered by the blanket permission > is a copy of the MSCP specification (!) that I have tucked away in a drawer > somewhere. Is DEC still making MSCP hardware? Everything I've used > recently has been SCSI. > This is from John Wilson's FTP site, at ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/pdp8/doc/README: --------------------------------------------------------- >From the January 1985 Software Documentation Products Directory (EJ-26361-78), first page: 3. RIGHT TO COPY Beginning January 1, 1985, Digital customers are given a right to copy, at no charge, any Digital Archival Software Documentation Publication (excluding restricted or third party owned) that we no longer offer for sale. However, the copyright is retained as the exclusive property of Digital Equipment Corporation. -------------------------------------------------------- I'm pretty sure the MSCP spec would have fallen under "restricted" ... --Pat. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Apr 12 12:01:46 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: DEC blanket permission was: Re: Scanning out-of-print books and documentation In-Reply-To: References: < Message-ID: <4.1.20000412095849.00d046f0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Actually I wouldn't be suprised if both were covered. The VLC manual because DEC/Compaq has end-of-lifed the VAX and there will be no more, and the MSCP manual because DEC/Compaq continues to hold the patent on the implementation and anyone attempting to use the information to build MSCP systems would be subject to the patent restrictions anyway. --Chuck P.S. Even if you don't want to go to the trouble to scan them and/or upload them I would be interested in making a copy for my own use. Contact me off-list if that's possible. At 10:19 AM 4/12/00 -0600, you wrote: >>One exception seems to be DEC/Compaq, as they apparently gave blanket >>permission to reproduce documentation for out-of-production hardware. >>Don't know what Compaq's current stand on this is, though ... > >I'm curious about the extent of this blanket permission. I have a number of >very interesting DEC documents for out-of-production hardware. For example, >I see continuous discussion of initializing the CPU of the VAXstation 4000/VLC >over on the NetBSD port-vax mailing list. I happen to have a copy of the >technical manual for the SOC CPU, the processor used in the 4000/VLC. >Somehow, I doubt this manual is covered by the DEC blanket permission. > >One document that I'm fairly certain is not covered by the blanket permission >is a copy of the MSCP specification (!) that I have tucked away in a drawer >somewhere. Is DEC still making MSCP hardware? Everything I've used >recently has been SCSI. > >-- >Roger Ivie >rivie@teraglobal.com >Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From rivie at teraglobal.com Wed Apr 12 12:13:19 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: OT Comments -- Unix documentation / speed question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Has anyone actually done an speed comparison between Linux, FreeBSD, >and NetBSD? I've not done anything official, but I do have a fileserver that I've run under all three operating systems at various times. The fileserver is a Pentium II 266 attached to a 45GB RAID. It speaks NFS, Samba, and AppleTalk. I started with Linux. However, Linux fell over when the 45GB RAID got half full; it panicked complaining that "the free list is corrupt". It also did not allow me to create files larger than 2GB. I installed NetBSD because FreeBSD did not support the old piece of junk SCSI controller I was using to get to my tape drives. NetBSD ran very well, but it got swamped when there was a lot of traffic and started losing packets (it would display an error message on the console, which I tracked into the source to verify that the machine was unable to keep up with the traffic arriving over the 100Mb ethernet port; basically, all of the receive buffers on the Ethernet card filled up before NetBSD could drain them). Along the way, I acquired a new SCSI card for the tape drives, which was supported by FreeBSD. However, since the machine was running well under NetBSD I left it under NetBSD for a while. However, NetBSD had a problem with the second tape drive; from time to time, the SCSI bus would hang talking to the second tape drive and I had to reboot the machine to regain the use of my tape drives. I never did a performance test between NetBSD and Linux; however, NetBSD allowed me to entirely fill the RAID with a single 45GB file if I so chose. I switched to FreeBSD when we moved into the new office, primarily to get better performance, but also in the hope that the problem with the tape drive would go away. The performance is noticeably better; the machine has a bit of extra zip that it didn't have under NetBSD. However, it still has the problem with the second tape drive. I've stopped using the tape drive until I get some time to play with it some more; I may wind up going back to the old piece of junk SCSI controller, which is now supported once again by FreeBSD as a quick hack to regain the use of that drive. The primary problems I'm having with FreeBSD, in addition to the second tape drive problem, are that if there is not a tape in the drive and you try to use it, the tape utilities report that the drive is "not configured" rather than that it is offline. That's annoying, and it took me a while to figure out what was going on. The machine also crashes once in awhile. We have a number of Macs attached by 155Mb ATM through a switch running LANE; when they are making heavy use of the server (which is 100Mb ethernet), the server will occasionally crash. Since I don't have a printing console on the thing (anyone know where I can get a new ribbon for an LA100?), I can't see what it prints when it panics; by the time I notice it's crashed, it's already reset itself and is starting to reboot. It's almost enough to make me think about going back to NetBSD. The versions of the various OSes that I've run the server have been: Linux: RedHat 5.2 NetBSD: 1.4, possibly 1.4.1. FreeBSD: currently at 3.4, but with a 3.2 userland (I upgraded the kernel in the hope that it would stop crashing. Nope. I've not had time to consider moving it to 4.0; you can't build a 4.0 kernel with the 3.2 userland, so I would have to take it down and completely reinstall it. I would be tempted to go back to NetBSD rather than try 4.0). Now that I've finally gotten around to sending SCO my $100, I suppose I could try 2.11BSD when I get my 11/84 back in a running state. But A) this is at work, and B) 2.11BSD doesn't speak AppleTalk. At least, not yet. -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From rivie at teraglobal.com Wed Apr 12 12:24:21 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: DEC blanket permission was: Re: Scanning out-of-print books and documentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >3. RIGHT TO COPY > > Beginning January 1, 1985, Digital customers are given a right to copy, at > no charge, any Digital Archival Software Documentation Publication > (excluding restricted or third party owned) that we no longer offer for > sale. However, the copyright is retained as the exclusive property of > Digital Equipment Corporation. > >-------------------------------------------------------- > >I'm pretty sure the MSCP spec would have fallen under "restricted" ... It also answers the SOC CPU spec, as that's not software documentation. -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 12 12:55:36 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: stibitz.adder In-Reply-To: <38F400A8.1C83ABC@alfredtech.edu> from "Scott F. Hall" at Apr 11, 0 11:50:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3964 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000412/431d2099/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 12 13:06:27 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: Dallas battery replacement -- what is it? In-Reply-To: from "Kevin L. Anderson" at Apr 12, 0 10:37:32 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1635 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000412/86509536/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 12 13:00:32 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: HPIB to HPIL adapter In-Reply-To: <001b01bfa465$6e33bd80$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 12, 0 03:56:51 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2004 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000412/1359acdc/attachment.ksh From elvey at hal.com Wed Apr 12 13:49:31 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: More disk problems In-Reply-To: <20000412042505.14850.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <200004121849.LAA17640@civic.hal.com> Hi I was going to trace the write gate back from the drive I have in my NIC-80 system but came across a problem. The drive is a Shuggart 900-1. It has a 44 pin connector instead of the more standard 50 pin. Does anyone have the pinout for this odd one around some place? Thanks Dwight From elvey at hal.com Wed Apr 12 14:08:05 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: stibitz.adder In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200004121908.MAA17886@civic.hal.com> Hi Here is a full adder that I did in relays a while back. All of the relays are double throw and relay Y has three sets of contacts. This is a DC relay design and uses two diodes, D1 and D2, to form a blocking OR function. This could have been done with more contacts. Parts of the same toggle in a double throw pair are indicated by the same number, such as Ci1 being in two locations. One is normally close and the other normally open. The common wire is the common in the relay contact. I hope you like the ascii art because it took me some time to do. X1 Y1 R ---|/|----| |-----+ | Ci1 +-----+---|/|----+ X1 Y1 | | | R ---| |----|/|-----+ | | | +----- Z ( sum ) X2 Y2 | | R ---|/|----|/|--------+ | | | | Ci1 | +--)---| |----+ X2 Y3 D1 | | R ---| |----| |--+-|>|-+ | Ci2 | +---| |----+----- Co ( Carry out ) | D2 | +-|>|---------------+ R = rail voltage --| |-- = normally open contacts --|/|-- = normally open contacts | -)- = no connection | | -+- = connection | Coils: ___ X --|___|-- GND ___ Y --|___|-- GND ___ Ci--|___|-- GND I would like to see anyone suggested changes? Remember, switches are not valid unless you also show the robot that controls it. Four pole/double throw relays can be used but they are harder to find. I'm always looking for ways to use more diodes and less relays. Dwight From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Apr 12 14:55:58 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: DEC blanket permission was: Re: Scanning out-of-print books and documentation In-Reply-To: Pat Barron "Re: DEC blanket permission was: Re: Scanning out-of-print books and documentation" (Apr 12, 12:45) References: Message-ID: <10004122055.ZM8449@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 12, 12:45, Pat Barron wrote: > On Wed, 12 Apr 2000, Roger Ivie wrote: > > > > One document that I'm fairly certain is not covered by the blanket permission > > is a copy of the MSCP specification (!) that I have tucked away in a drawer > > somewhere. Is DEC still making MSCP hardware? Everything I've used > > recently has been SCSI. > > > > This is from John Wilson's FTP site, at > ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/pdp8/doc/README: > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > >From the January 1985 Software Documentation Products Directory (EJ-26361-78), > first page: > > 3. RIGHT TO COPY > > Beginning January 1, 1985, Digital customers are given a right to copy, at > no charge, any Digital Archival Software Documentation Publication > (excluding restricted or third party owned) that we no longer offer for > sale. However, the copyright is retained as the exclusive property of > Digital Equipment Corporation. > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > I'm pretty sure the MSCP spec would have fallen under "restricted" ... I'm not at all sure it is. My copy is "MSCP Basic Disk Functions Manual AA-L619A-TK Version 1.2 A part of UDA50 Programmer's Doc. Kit QP-905-GZ", and it has no restrictions indicated, apart from the usual copyright notice (1982). On the other hand, Sections 6.1, 6.2, 6.6, and 6.10 are listed in the table of contents as "This section deliberately omitted" :-) I think the Doc Kit was just two parts. Anyone know for sure? The other part I have is "Storage Systems Diadnostics and Utility Protocol AA-L620A-TK Version 1.2 A part of UDA50 Programmer's Doc. Kit QP-905-GZ". -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed Apr 12 16:29:42 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: Computerworld Article Message-ID: <200004122129.QAA00995@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Computerworld's front page article is on computer junk, ie, the problems companies are having with disposing of 'old' computers. Just thought i would mention it in case someone wanted to read the on-line version: http://www.computerworld.com/home/print.nsf/all/000410D386 -Lawrence LeMay From ip500 at roanoke.infi.net Wed Apr 12 16:49:30 2000 From: ip500 at roanoke.infi.net (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: Scanning out-of-print books and documentation References: <20000412153645.74251.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <38F4EF6A.B3D959FB@roanoke.infi.net> Jason has hit hit the nail directly with the hammer--DAMAGES are the germane point. I'd guess you could go ahead and put almost anything, copyrighted or no up on the web. In the unlikely event that the copyright holder ever becomes aware of your infringement---probably the worse case would be a cease and desist letter requiring you to take it down. Very difficult if not impossible for them to prove damages--if the work is long out of print there would be NO damages to prove anyway. NB: Free legal advice is worth exactly what you paid for it! Craig Jason McBrien wrote: > > Generally, if the publisher of the book or manual is still in business, they > still own the copyright for the next 80 or so years. They tend to get upset > if you redistribute it free of charge. > > However, if the book hasn't been published in quite a long time, the > publisher won't care quite as much (I.E. it's hard to prove damages in court > if you haven't published the book in question for 10 years, especially for > outdated hardware) Check the publisher's website, amazon.com, fatbrain.com, > etc... to see if it still in print or available. Better yet ask the > publisher if you can redistribute it. I've seen many websites with > reproduced instruction cards and owner's manuals with consent of the > publisher. Just make sure all the (TM)s and (R)s are in the right places. > Good luck. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ram Meenakshisundaram" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 10:52 AM > Subject: Scanning out-of-print books and documentation > > > Hi, > > > > I want to start scanning some of the transputer books and manuals that I > > have. A lot if not all are out-of-print. If I scan them and put them on > > the net, do I have to worry about copyright laws, etc. Would I get into > any > > trouble?? What is the current policy on this?? I know several of you > guys > > scanned several books/documentation/manuals etc for various machines. Any > > help in this would be appreciated. Oh, what about old software too. > > Thanks. > > > > Ram > > > > From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed Apr 12 17:11:02 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: DEC blanket permission was: Re: Scanning out-of-print books and documentation In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000412095849.00d046f0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>; from cmcmanis@mcmanis.com on Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 10:01:46AM -0700 References: < <4.1.20000412095849.00d046f0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <20000412181102.A14897@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 10:01:46AM -0700, Chuck McManis wrote: > Actually I wouldn't be suprised if both were covered. The VLC manual > because DEC/Compaq has end-of-lifed the VAX and there will be no more, and > the MSCP manual because DEC/Compaq continues to hold the patent on the > implementation and anyone attempting to use the information to build MSCP > systems would be subject to the patent restrictions anyway. Unless I seriously misunderstand things, the MSCP patent is not long for this world anyway, since its 17th birthday is 13 months away (and that's for the re-examined patent, the original is older so if the 17 years actually starts *then*, it's already expired). And the patent text itself contains at least *some* amount of description of how it works (although it's definitely not intended to be useful to programmers), including a listing of a really ancient VMS DU: driver. It's certainly OK to copy that text, that's what patents are for. I've never seen any blanket permission for copying obsolete DEC hardware docs, only the software thing that was in the software doc catalog. John Wilson D Bit From jpero at cgocable.net Wed Apr 12 13:26:44 2000 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:44 2005 Subject: Dallas battery replacement -- what is it? In-Reply-To: References: from "Kevin L. Anderson" at Apr 12, 0 10:37:32 am Message-ID: <200004122222.e3CMMsr19071@admin.cgocable.net> > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: Dallas battery replacement -- what is it? > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 19:06:27 +0100 (BST) > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > > Forgive me for asking, but would someone please reply OFFLINE > > to me with an answer to this question -- > > Oh, I think it's appropriate to post it to the list to refresh everyone's > memory ;-) Yes, this belongs here because these discussions involves those RT/CMOS modules are also used in classics including some early PS/2's. > After about 10 years the batteries go flat. The official thing to do is > to replace the complete unit, but the older ones are hard to find now, > and even if you do find them they might be old stock and thus have > dead batteries. Actually much less. I have seen 2 or 5 years old boards with Dallas and dallas clones go flat. > -tony Wizard From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed Apr 12 17:28:48 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: Scanning out-of-print books and documentation In-Reply-To: <38F4EF6A.B3D959FB@roanoke.infi.net> from Craig Smith at "Apr 12, 2000 05:49:30 pm" Message-ID: <200004122228.RAA01148@caesar.cs.umn.edu> its been a couple years since I looked into copyright penalties, but if i recall correctly there is a fairly large cash penalty for violating copyright, and you can either chose that penalty OR seek actual damages if you can prove greater than the fixed amount in damages. -Lawrence LeMay > Jason has hit hit the nail directly with the hammer--DAMAGES are > the germane point. I'd guess you could go ahead and put almost anything, > copyrighted or no up on the web. In the unlikely event that the > copyright holder ever becomes aware of your infringement---probably the > worse case would be a cease and desist letter requiring you to take it > down. Very difficult if not impossible for them to prove damages--if the > work is long out of print there would be NO damages to prove anyway. > NB: Free legal advice is worth exactly what you paid for it! > Craig > > Jason McBrien wrote: > > > > Generally, if the publisher of the book or manual is still in business, they > > still own the copyright for the next 80 or so years. They tend to get upset > > if you redistribute it free of charge. > > > > However, if the book hasn't been published in quite a long time, the > > publisher won't care quite as much (I.E. it's hard to prove damages in court > > if you haven't published the book in question for 10 years, especially for > > outdated hardware) Check the publisher's website, amazon.com, fatbrain.com, > > etc... to see if it still in print or available. Better yet ask the > > publisher if you can redistribute it. I've seen many websites with > > reproduced instruction cards and owner's manuals with consent of the > > publisher. Just make sure all the (TM)s and (R)s are in the right places. > > Good luck. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Ram Meenakshisundaram" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 10:52 AM > > Subject: Scanning out-of-print books and documentation > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I want to start scanning some of the transputer books and manuals that I > > > have. A lot if not all are out-of-print. If I scan them and put them on > > > the net, do I have to worry about copyright laws, etc. Would I get into > > any > > > trouble?? What is the current policy on this?? I know several of you > > guys > > > scanned several books/documentation/manuals etc for various machines. Any > > > help in this would be appreciated. Oh, what about old software too. > > > Thanks. > > > > > > Ram > > > > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 12 17:42:08 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: HPIB to HPIL adapter References: Message-ID: <001001bfa4d0$56361140$0400c0a8@winbook> I was exposed to HPIL back in the '80's and, while there were some fancy instruments, e.g. 6-digit DVM, I've not seen it used since then. In fact, the GPIB is something I've seen surprisingly little, except on equipment that was for sale. My TEK logic analyzer supports serial, parallel, and GPIB interfaces, and I was hoping the GPIB would be a mite faster than the serial interface. Unfortunately, since I got a portable logic analyzer (model 1240) the three interfaces are mutually exclusive, so you can't talk to the instrument over two paths, which might be nice. The LabView is not irrelevant, but only because there are people willing to pay to have it used in their installations. I'm perfectly satisfied to use the GPIB command set as part of a program I write myself. I've found that approach quite satisfactory, and there's certainly a shorter learning curve than with some GUI-thingie that I can't manipulate comfortably because someone else designed it. Because I've had so little experience with the GPIB, and because I've got no doc's on the National Instruments GPIB card I have, I'm at the mercy of those who may have and be willing to "share" whatever details and drivers they have. I'm open to any suggestions and your "spiritual guidance" is always welcome. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 12:00 PM Subject: Re: HPIB to HPIL adapter > > > Forget about Labview and its drivers... > > > > > That's my inclination as well. It's just that numerous local companies use > > it in their testing and are willing to pay almost excessive (if it's what > > they pay me it's not excessive) rates for people to write scripts and > > drivers for Labview to drive their instruments. Many of them are already > > supported, but the new drivers are worth something. > > Ah, so there are other constraints on this :-) > > Personnaly, I've always done this because I wanted it for myself (not > necessarily for home hacking, but perhaps for some official work I was > doing). So I could use what languages and what user interface I like. > > [GPIB commands] > > > Yes, that's described in the manuals. I expect there'll be plenty of > > surprises, though. > > Actually, I've found most instruments do behave as documented!. > > > > You do realise that you're going to need a controller (== computer most > > > of the time) on the GPIB. Linking the 'scope to the HP drive box without > > > also linking in a controller won't do anything. I know for a fact that HP > > > disk drives never operate as controllers and I doubt very much in 'scopes > > > do either. > > Oh, yes. The PC will do that, but at some point in the future, I might want > > to make up a little controller board with the necessary firmware to make it > > able to initialize and poll, etc, and then do some specific task. I still > > have a couple of those 9114's from T.I. > ^^^^ > You mean 9914 I think. The HP9114 is almost-relevant to this -- it's the > HPIL disk drive which can be useful for such data logging... > > > > > > > And if you have a computer on the GPIB, you might as well log the data to > > > its disk drive. > > > > > It's not as portable, but if portability isn't a factor, that would be my > > choice. > > Oh, I don't know. An HP71B + HP82169 (the unit that started this > discussion) is pretty small and can work as HPIB controller. Add a 9114 > disk drive on the HPIL loop if you want mass storage. > > -tony > From sipke at wxs.nl Wed Apr 12 17:58:47 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: Scanning out-of-print books and documentation References: <200004122228.RAA01148@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <007a01bfa4d2$a990f4c0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Maybe a petition to Compaq, asking them to treat hardware docs with the same rules that that apply to software, is in order ? A lot of people on this list would be willing to endorse it and maybe there is a law-knowledgable person out there that could pull out a draft petition from his hat or sleeve. The same applies to other old-hardware manufactors. Sipke ----- Original Message ----- From: Lawrence LeMay To: Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 12:28 AM Subject: Re: Scanning out-of-print books and documentation > its been a couple years since I looked into copyright penalties, but if > i recall correctly there is a fairly large cash penalty for violating > copyright, and you can either chose that penalty OR seek actual damages > if you can prove greater than the fixed amount in damages. > > -Lawrence LeMay > > > Jason has hit hit the nail directly with the hammer--DAMAGES are > > the germane point. I'd guess you could go ahead and put almost anything, > > copyrighted or no up on the web. In the unlikely event that the > > copyright holder ever becomes aware of your infringement---probably the > > worse case would be a cease and desist letter requiring you to take it > > down. Very difficult if not impossible for them to prove damages--if the > > work is long out of print there would be NO damages to prove anyway. > > NB: Free legal advice is worth exactly what you paid for it! > > Craig > > > > Jason McBrien wrote: > > > > > > Generally, if the publisher of the book or manual is still in business, they > > > still own the copyright for the next 80 or so years. They tend to get upset > > > if you redistribute it free of charge. > > > > > > However, if the book hasn't been published in quite a long time, the > > > publisher won't care quite as much (I.E. it's hard to prove damages in court > > > if you haven't published the book in question for 10 years, especially for > > > outdated hardware) Check the publisher's website, amazon.com, fatbrain.com, > > > etc... to see if it still in print or available. Better yet ask the > > > publisher if you can redistribute it. I've seen many websites with > > > reproduced instruction cards and owner's manuals with consent of the > > > publisher. Just make sure all the (TM)s and (R)s are in the right places. > > > Good luck. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Ram Meenakshisundaram" > > > To: > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 10:52 AM > > > Subject: Scanning out-of-print books and documentation > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > I want to start scanning some of the transputer books and manuals that I > > > > have. A lot if not all are out-of-print. If I scan them and put them on > > > > the net, do I have to worry about copyright laws, etc. Would I get into > > > any > > > > trouble?? What is the current policy on this?? I know several of you > > > guys > > > > scanned several books/documentation/manuals etc for various machines. Any > > > > help in this would be appreciated. Oh, what about old software too. > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > Ram > > > > > > > > > > > From donm at cts.com Wed Apr 12 18:15:07 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: HPIB to HPIL adapter In-Reply-To: <001b01bfa465$6e33bd80$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Apr 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: You might check www.computerboards.com who market a number of specialized cards including several GPIB cards. - don > Please see embedded comments below. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tony Duell > To: > Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 2:24 PM > Subject: Re: HPIB to HPIL adapter > > > > > > > > Well, I guess I'll have to look at the NI web site. I've looked for a > means > > > of deteriming basic requirements for LABVIEW drivers for instruments > (like > > > mine) which they don't support themselves. I have a TEK 'scope and > logic > > > analyzer, both GPIB capable, but for which there have apparently not > been > > > > Forget about Labview and its drivers... > > > That's my inclination as well. It's just that numerous local companies use > it in their testing and are willing to pay almost excessive (if it's what > they pay me it's not excessive) rates for people to write scripts and > drivers for Labview to drive their instruments. Many of them are already > supported, but the new drivers are worth something. > > > > I'm suggesting you go one level lower and talk to the instruments > > directly. That is to say that you send them a command (as in bytes over > > the GPIB interface ) and read data back. You're going to have to figure > > out what commands to send and what you'll get back. > > > Yes, that's described in the manuals. I expect there'll be plenty of > surprises, though. > > > > At one time this information was clearly presented in the user manual for > > the instrument. Nowadays you probably have to look in a 'programmers > > manual' or 'technical manual', but it should be available, especially > > for instruments from Tektronix or HP. > > > Well I have the doc's for my TEK instruments. The HP stuff may not be on > the web any more, but I imagine I can find it. The MSC HDC will need a > little work, but it is pretty simple. > > > > > drivers written. I've also got a GPIB HDC and one of those common HP > dual > > > 3-1/2" floppy drive boxes, either of which would probably serve well as > > > listener/loggers. It would be nice to be able to use that setup to > monitor > > > > You do realise that you're going to need a controller (== computer most > > of the time) on the GPIB. Linking the 'scope to the HP drive box without > > also linking in a controller won't do anything. I know for a fact that HP > > disk drives never operate as controllers and I doubt very much in 'scopes > > do either. > Oh, yes. The PC will do that, but at some point in the future, I might want > to make up a little controller board with the necessary firmware to make it > able to initialize and poll, etc, and then do some specific task. I still > have a couple of those 9114's from T.I. > > > > And if you have a computer on the GPIB, you might as well log the data to > > its disk drive. > > > It's not as portable, but if portability isn't a factor, that would be my > choice. > > > > > bursty events via the LA or 'scope. > > > > > > Is there anything worthwhile that doesn't involve National Instruments? > > > > Yes. Write the library yourself ;-). I've done it (not on a PC, though)-- > > it's not that hard if you've got data on the GPIB card. All you really > > need (at least for simple stuff) is the equivalent of putc() and getc() > > for the GPIB bus and the ability to send controller commands (which for > > simple stuff translates to putc_with_ATN_asserted(). Maybe the > > ability to assert REN. Those 4 functions will let you talk to most GPIB > > instruments, at least for simple applications. > > > Somehow I think folks will be more interested in having this done via > Labview or some similar suite. I'm quite sure there are GPIB card vendors > for the PC beyond N.I. Surely there's something besides LabView that's just > as useful. If not, it will be necessary for me to look at whatever I can > find to enable me to prepare drivers for various instruments or, the > "generic" instrument, by using stubs for the appropriate device-specific > stuff. Writing test procedures in low-level/command line constructs is a > bit too primitive for the typical manager, and they're the one who sign the > check. > > > > -tony > > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 12 18:25:19 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: HPIB to HPIL adapter In-Reply-To: <001001bfa4d0$56361140$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 12, 0 04:42:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3366 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000413/3d6cb91d/attachment.ksh From ip500 at roanoke.infi.net Wed Apr 12 18:51:52 2000 From: ip500 at roanoke.infi.net (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: Scanning out-of-print books and documentation References: <200004122228.RAA01148@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <38F50C18.7565D2DF@roanoke.infi.net> It has been several years [actually more like 5] for me as well, however--as I recall the penalty was for unattributed use--ie: stealing the copyrighted information and/or claiming it as your own. I doubt publishing on a web page [as a not for profit] undertaking--would be viewed as a terribly egregious offense. Lots of places on the web have scanned or OCR documents posted [copyright and all] and I've never heard of anyone being overly hassled about it. Craig Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > its been a couple years since I looked into copyright penalties, but if > i recall correctly there is a fairly large cash penalty for violating > copyright, and you can either chose that penalty OR seek actual damages > if you can prove greater than the fixed amount in damages. > > -Lawrence LeMay > > > Jason has hit hit the nail directly with the hammer--DAMAGES are > > the germane point. I'd guess you could go ahead and put almost anything, > > copyrighted or no up on the web. In the unlikely event that the > > copyright holder ever becomes aware of your infringement---probably the > > worse case would be a cease and desist letter requiring you to take it > > down. Very difficult if not impossible for them to prove damages--if the > > work is long out of print there would be NO damages to prove anyway. > > NB: Free legal advice is worth exactly what you paid for it! > > Craig > > > > Jason McBrien wrote: > > > > > > Generally, if the publisher of the book or manual is still in business, they > > > still own the copyright for the next 80 or so years. They tend to get upset > > > if you redistribute it free of charge. > > > > > > However, if the book hasn't been published in quite a long time, the > > > publisher won't care quite as much (I.E. it's hard to prove damages in court > > > if you haven't published the book in question for 10 years, especially for > > > outdated hardware) Check the publisher's website, amazon.com, fatbrain.com, > > > etc... to see if it still in print or available. Better yet ask the > > > publisher if you can redistribute it. I've seen many websites with > > > reproduced instruction cards and owner's manuals with consent of the > > > publisher. Just make sure all the (TM)s and (R)s are in the right places. > > > Good luck. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Ram Meenakshisundaram" > > > To: > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 10:52 AM > > > Subject: Scanning out-of-print books and documentation > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > I want to start scanning some of the transputer books and manuals that I > > > > have. A lot if not all are out-of-print. If I scan them and put them on > > > > the net, do I have to worry about copyright laws, etc. Would I get into > > > any > > > > trouble?? What is the current policy on this?? I know several of you > > > guys > > > > scanned several books/documentation/manuals etc for various machines. Any > > > > help in this would be appreciated. Oh, what about old software too. > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > Ram > > > > > > > > > > From west at tseinc.com Wed Apr 12 20:02:13 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: Question on disc drive encoder Message-ID: <008001bfa4e3$e8b57200$0101a8c0@jay> I'm having a problem with my 7900 I'm trying to get up and running that I wanted to bounce off the folks here. When you hit the load switch, after spinup the heads seek cylinder 0 and rest there (and an interrupt is sent to the cpu). However, any command sent to the drive via diagnostics causes the heads to slowly step out one cylinder at a time to the innermost track. Then the cpu gets a "no command flag" message which basically means the cpu never got acknowledgement back from the drive that the previous operation completed. This makes me suspect the encoder mechanism. The drive uses an IR emitter/detector through a glass reticule with sector markings on it. But if the encoder was shot, wouldn't that make it hard for the drive to initially seek cylinder 0 upon loading as it does correctly? Just curious... more of a philosophical question than a need for direction... Thanks in advance! Jay West From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed Apr 12 20:21:00 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: Shugart 800-2 Message-ID: <200004130121.UAA01797@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Does anyone know if a Shugart 800-2 8" floppy drive is DSDD or not? I have been getting different hints on various web pages. Also, does anyone recall the URL to the web site with the Terak and Shugart manuals that have been scanned in? -Lawrence LeMay From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Apr 12 21:09:06 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: A New Find Message-ID: <003b01bfa4ed$4010a3e0$2ddab0d0@default> The other day I was given a Sym model 1 in a custom case of black metal with wooden sides and a built in keyboard sold by Synertek. There small wooden door on top that lifts off to view the on board LED and KB. This system has been upgraded with extra memory and other features. He also gave all the documentation for it and some newsletters from an old Sym computer club that used to be at Honeywell. The board is dated 1978 with SN 3433. It will be a great addition to my collection and I hope to fire it up soon. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000412/0658b3af/attachment.html From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Apr 12 21:35:14 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: Fw: Sony microcomputer Message-ID: <001901bfa4f0$e6f845c0$2ddab0d0@default> Here's another computer up for sell. Good Luck John ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Johnsen To: Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 11:11 AM Subject: Sony microcomputer > Hello, > > Saw the write-up in the Pioneer Press about > your collection. I have a circa 1982 Sony > SMC-70 CP/M machine I'd like to part with and > I was wondering if you might be interested in > buying it. > > No manuals but it does boot from ROM and runs > Basic just fine. > > Peter > > > -- > Peter Johnsen Tel 651-683-5462 > Applications Engineer FAX 651-683-7482 > SGI pjj@sgi.com > 655F Lone Oak Drive > Eagan, MN 55121 USA > -------------------------------------------------------- > From jhfine at idirect.com Wed Apr 12 21:46:21 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: WTB: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges Message-ID: <38F534FD.895BC719@idirect.com> I am looking for a source for the 600 Mbyte magneto optical 5 1/4" cartridges with 512 byte per sector. These will be used in a SONY SMO S-501 5 1/4" magneto optical disk drive. I have also found a SONY SMO S-501 drive, but I would like to acquire a second one (or a compatible) as a backup. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Apr 12 22:14:57 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: Shugart 800-2 In-Reply-To: <200004130121.UAA01797@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000412201457.03f4a860@agora.rdrop.com> At 08:21 PM 4/12/00 -0500, you wrote: >Does anyone know if a Shugart 800-2 8" floppy drive is DSDD or not? I have >been getting different hints on various web pages. A Shugart 800/801 is single sided. The Shugart 850/851 is double sided. -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Apr 12 20:43:35 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: Shugart 800-2 Message-ID: <001a01bfa4ef$71ed7670$6c64c0d0@ajp166> From: Lawrence LeMay >Does anyone know if a Shugart 800-2 8" floppy drive is DSDD or not? I have >been getting different hints on various web pages. Definatley single sided, though it can run single or double density. I'm very certain as I have a few 800s and 801s. The twosided versions are the 851 and 855. Allison From Anthony.Eros at compaq.com Wed Apr 12 22:38:12 2000 From: Anthony.Eros at compaq.com (Eros, Anthony) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: Home network routing setup Message-ID: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F0740CB3B@ALFEXC5> Sorry for the partially off-topic question, but I'm stumped. I'd like to set up more of my systems in a home network environment, but I don't really properly understand routing and am looking for some help. My internet access is through a cable modem that acts as a DHCP server, allocating up to three IP addresses to specifically-named systems. For instance systems "foo1", "foo2" and "foo3" will get IP addresses from the modem, while "foo4", "foo5" and "foo6" will not. I thought about snagging a small PC with a couple of NICs and running ShareTheNet or WinGate, but I recently picked up a used Alpha running NT with a pair of NICs that I'd like to try out as a router. Right now, the Alpha has one of the magic system names (foo1), so one of the network adapters gets a DHCP-served IP address. I have the other adapter's IP address defined as 192.168.0.101, with the mask as 255.255.255.0 and no gateway defined. I want to set the following systems up with static IP addresses: 192.168.0.105 SGI Indy 192.168.0.106 Symbolics Lisp Machine 192.168.0.107 NeXT Cube 192.168.0.108 Pentium II Laptop 192.168.0.109 Pentium Desktop 192.168.0.110 DEC Shark 192.168.0.111 iOpener I'd like to set up these machines to use 192.168.0.102 as their gateway. Seems to me that if I have the Alpha set up properly, I shouldn't need to do any special route definitions on the other systems, right? So, any suggestions on how I should set up the two NICs on the Alpha under NT 4.0? -- Tony From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Wed Apr 12 22:48:33 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: FW: SMD drives available. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5qgafssv8nkgmne1bek7i7h0qsichl1mr8@4ax.com> Any list members near Kent, UK? The fellow who wrote the attached message has some nice Fujitsus available. Please reply directly to him if interested. Attachment follows. -=-=- -=-=- On Wed, 12 Apr 2000 22:22:35 +0000, in comp.sys.dec you wrote: >>Hello. >>I have three pairs of SMD drives available. they are Fujitsu >>M2344K (690MB) and each pair is fitted into a 19" rackmount >>tray 3U high. I have all of the slidemounts and frontplates >>and also some cables too. all of the drives spin-up O.K. and >>become ready, and until a few days ago they were fitted into >>a Sequent Minicomputer. The system was last used a month ago, >>and has now been removed from service. the system dates from >>1990 and has had minimal use for the past five years. so the >>drives should be good for a few years yet. I'm open to offers >>on these drives, as I haven't got a clue what they're worth. >>Be warned though, they are big and heavy, and I'm in North >>Kent U.K. and they'll need to be collected, although, if >>you're local (within a couple of hundred miles) I may be able >>to deliver. >> >>please e-mail or fax if you're interested. All The Best. >>-- >>Tim Bluck. TB565 http://www.planet-tharg.demon.co.uk >>'Phone.01322-409955 Fax. 01322-410111 Dartford. Kent. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Apr 12 23:20:38 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: Home network routing setup In-Reply-To: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F0740CB3B@ALFEXC5> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000412211927.00b4ea60@208.226.86.10> Well you have to tell the other systems how to route somehow. For addresses that don't go the local subnet they need a routing entry. The simplest one is a "default" route that points to your internet gateway, the next simplest is to run routed on the gateway and it will broadcast a route to the internet every 30 seconds or so. --Chuck At 10:38 PM 4/12/00 -0500, you wrote: >Sorry for the partially off-topic question, but I'm stumped. > >I'd like to set up more of my systems in a home network environment, but I >don't really properly understand routing and am looking for some help. > >My internet access is through a cable modem that acts as a DHCP server, >allocating up to three IP addresses to specifically-named systems. For >instance systems "foo1", "foo2" and "foo3" will get IP addresses from the >modem, while "foo4", "foo5" and "foo6" will not. > >I thought about snagging a small PC with a couple of NICs and running >ShareTheNet or WinGate, but I recently picked up a used Alpha running NT >with a pair of NICs that I'd like to try out as a router. Right now, the >Alpha has one of the magic system names (foo1), so one of the network >adapters gets a DHCP-served IP address. I have the other adapter's IP >address defined as 192.168.0.101, with the mask as 255.255.255.0 and no >gateway defined. > >I want to set the following systems up with static IP addresses: > > 192.168.0.105 SGI Indy > 192.168.0.106 Symbolics Lisp Machine > 192.168.0.107 NeXT Cube > 192.168.0.108 Pentium II Laptop > 192.168.0.109 Pentium Desktop > 192.168.0.110 DEC Shark > 192.168.0.111 iOpener > >I'd like to set up these machines to use 192.168.0.102 as their gateway. >Seems to me that if I have the Alpha set up properly, I shouldn't need to do >any special route definitions on the other systems, right? > >So, any suggestions on how I should set up the two NICs on the Alpha under >NT 4.0? > >-- Tony From nerdware at laidbak.com Wed Apr 12 23:50:28 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: !Re: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <20000410011123.2283.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <200004080448.XAA00483@garcon.laidbak.com> (nerdware@laidbak.com) Message-ID: <200004130451.XAA07599@garcon.laidbak.com> Here's where that little factoid came from. >From The Microsoft File by Wendy Goldman Rohm 1998, Times Books, a division of Random House, Inc., New York. ISBN 0-8129-2716-8 "Microsoft DOS still contained lines of code written by DRI's founder, Gary Kildall. In fact, IBM had been so paranoid about that when they realized Gates had sold them a clone, they paid Kildall about $800,000 - a pittance given the billions Microsoft had raked in from the product over the years - in exchange for his promise never to sue." > "Paul Braun" wrote: > > And IBM apparently found enough code lifted directly from CP/M to > > justify an $800,000 settlement with Kildall to keep him from suing them. > > Very interesting. I've heard a lot of claims that Tim copied actual code > from CP/M, including mentions of intact copyright notices (which I > couldn't find when I examined an IBM DOS 1.0 diskette), but I've never > before heard about a settlement. Do you have any further references or > info? I'd love to learn more about this. > > The thing that I find amazing about the idea that Tim might have copied DR > code is that CP/M is so small and simple that I wouldn't expect it to be > worth the effort to do a binary translation of it, especially if you plan > to replace the file system code (which is the bulk of the BDOS) anyhow. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Wed Apr 12 23:54:26 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: Home network routing setup In-Reply-To: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F0740CB3B@ALFEXC5>; from Eros, Anthony on Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 10:38:12PM -0500 References: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F0740CB3B@ALFEXC5> Message-ID: <20000412215425.A30038@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 10:38:12PM -0500, Eros, Anthony wrote: > I'd like to set up more of my systems in a home network environment, but I > don't really properly understand routing and am looking for some help. > > My internet access is through a cable modem that acts as a DHCP server, > allocating up to three IP addresses to specifically-named systems. For > instance systems "foo1", "foo2" and "foo3" will get IP addresses from the > modem, while "foo4", "foo5" and "foo6" will not. > > I thought about snagging a small PC with a couple of NICs and running > ShareTheNet or WinGate, but I recently picked up a used Alpha running NT > with a pair of NICs that I'd like to try out as a router. Right now, the > Alpha has one of the magic system names (foo1), so one of the network > adapters gets a DHCP-served IP address. I have the other adapter's IP > address defined as 192.168.0.101, with the mask as 255.255.255.0 and no > gateway defined. > > I want to set the following systems up with static IP addresses: > > 192.168.0.105 SGI Indy > 192.168.0.106 Symbolics Lisp Machine > 192.168.0.107 NeXT Cube > 192.168.0.108 Pentium II Laptop > 192.168.0.109 Pentium Desktop > 192.168.0.110 DEC Shark > 192.168.0.111 iOpener > > I'd like to set up these machines to use 192.168.0.102 as their gateway. > Seems to me that if I have the Alpha set up properly, I shouldn't need to do > any special route definitions on the other systems, right? > > So, any suggestions on how I should set up the two NICs on the Alpha under > NT 4.0? May be possible with NT but this is screaming for Linux... what you need is IP masquerading, which will let all the machines hide behind one IP address, that of the gateway machine. It will let all the machines on the whole LAN access the Internet, but they won't have real Internet IP addresses. You could also use the two remaining IP addresses on two other machines, to expose them directly to the Internet, in case you want to run services on them. I've been doing this for 4 or 5 years, it works great. And it's just one excuse among many to get into Linux if you haven't already... with a NeXT and an Indy evidently you aren't Unix- phobic, so should have no trouble... There are a couple of good howto's on the 'net about routing and masquerading respectively. You can install Linux on the alpha machine or just get another 386 or 486 for that purpose. -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From whdawson at mlynk.com Thu Apr 13 00:01:35 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: Question on disc drive encoder In-Reply-To: <008001bfa4e3$e8b57200$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <000f01bfa505$57d416c0$3de3dfd0@cobweb.net> -> This makes me suspect the encoder mechanism. The drive uses an IR -> emitter/detector through a glass reticule with sector markings -> on it. You mean track/cylinder markings, don't you? -> the encoder was shot, wouldn't that make it hard for the drive -> to initially seek cylinder 0 upon loading as it does correctly? Yes. What is curious is that is slowly "steps". For it to step, it must be discerning the reticule markings. Bill From spc at armigeron.com Wed Apr 12 23:58:53 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: Home network routing setup In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000412211927.00b4ea60@208.226.86.10> from "Chuck McManis" at Apr 12, 2000 09:20:38 PM Message-ID: <200004130458.AAA23002@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Chuck McManis once stated: > > Well you have to tell the other systems how to route somehow. For addresses > that don't go the local subnet they need a routing entry. The simplest one > is a "default" route that points to your internet gateway, the next > simplest is to run routed on the gateway and it will broadcast a route to > the internet every 30 seconds or so. But 192.168.0.0 is defined as a private network and won't be routed on the Internet. The machines that are in the 192.168.0.0 network will have their gateway set to the machine with two NICs. Then he'll have to run software to NAT (Network Address Translation) his internal private addresses to one of the public addresses. I know it's possible under Linux or FreeBSD but I don't know about NT. -spc (And for such a simple network there is no need to run routed unless he wants to learn how to use routed) From sms at antinode.org Thu Apr 13 00:07:07 2000 From: sms at antinode.org (sms@antinode.org) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: Home network routing setup Message-ID: <00041300070726@antinode.org> From: "Shawn T. Rutledge" > On Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 10:38:12PM -0500, Eros, Anthony wrote: > > I'd like to set up more of my systems in a home network environment, but I > > don't really properly understand routing and am looking for some help. > > [...] > > So, any suggestions on how I should set up the two NICs on the Alpha under > > NT 4.0? > > May be possible with NT but this is screaming for Linux... what you need > is IP masquerading, which will let all the machines hide behind one IP > address, that of the gateway machine. [...] Or a suitable cable modem/router. I have DSL service using a Cisco 675, routing, with a single IP address. It can do DHCP, but I don't use it. I set static NAT entries for the popular ports to pass through to my AlphaStation (running VMS), which acts as the (only) server. Everyone else on the home network has a static (internal-only) IP address (10.0.0.*) and gets client access to the network using the Cisco box's dynamic NAT, so I can do Web browsing from my Mac Plus, if I wish. What's your box, and what can it do? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda (+1) 651-699-9818 (voice, home) 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 763-781-0308 (voice, work) Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 (+1) 763-781-0309 (facsimile, work) sms@antinode.org sms@provis.com (work) From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Apr 13 00:36:15 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: Home network routing setup In-Reply-To: <200004130458.AAA23002@armigeron.com> References: <4.3.1.2.20000412211927.00b4ea60@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000412223225.00b4f730@208.226.86.10> Fair point but I'm guessing if someone had already started using 192.168.x.x addresses then they already know about private addresses. Yes, you had better NAT those puppies, yes you can do it with Linux, or NetBSD, or FreeBSD. It would be cooler if you set up a VMS system to do it but hey there is fun and then there is "fun." In any event network drivers (even on wimpy DOS boxen) make a choice when they have a packet to send: 1) Drop it on to the wire (which they do if it is contained in the subnet that is defined to be attached to the interface) 2) Drop on the wire encapsulated to a router that claims to know how to get it off the subnet and closer to its destination. The simplest way to do #2 is with a default static route. --Chuck At 12:58 AM 4/13/00 -0400, spc wrote: >It was thus said that the Great Chuck McManis once stated: > > > > Well you have to tell the other systems how to route somehow. For > addresses > > that don't go the local subnet they need a routing entry. The simplest one > > is a "default" route that points to your internet gateway, the next > > simplest is to run routed on the gateway and it will broadcast a route to > > the internet every 30 seconds or so. > > But 192.168.0.0 is defined as a private network and won't be routed on the >Internet. The machines that are in the 192.168.0.0 network will have their >gateway set to the machine with two NICs. Then he'll have to run software >to NAT (Network Address Translation) his internal private addresses to one >of the public addresses. I know it's possible under Linux or FreeBSD but I >don't know about NT. > > -spc (And for such a simple network there is no need to run routed unless > he wants to learn how to use routed) > > > From transit at lerctr.org Thu Apr 13 00:56:58 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: Tektronix 4107 In-Reply-To: <200004122129.QAA00995@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: This was a rather neat little graphics terminal (CRT). You could draw all sorts of shapes on the screen by issuing commands such as "Square 0,0,10,10" or "Line 4,4,20,20", etc. They were pretty exciting back in 1984 or so (when I first saw one), but probably long since outdone by VGA/SVGA graphics ... ------------------------------------------------------------------ Charles P. Hobbs transit@lerctr.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 13 01:58:13 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: Tektronix 4107 In-Reply-To: Tektronix 4107 (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) References: <200004122129.QAA00995@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <14581.28677.33907.511989@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 13, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > This was a rather neat little graphics terminal (CRT). You could draw all > sorts of shapes on the screen by issuing commands such as "Square > 0,0,10,10" or "Line 4,4,20,20", etc. Cool! > They were pretty exciting back in 1984 or so (when I first saw one), but > probably long since outdone by VGA/SVGA graphics ... ...but since VGA/SVGA graphics are usually attached to PeeCees, I'd take the 4107 any day. ;) -Dave McGuire Happy with 960 MFLOPS on an SGI Max Impact Unhappy with PCs ...and finally getting over this damned cold. From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Thu Apr 13 01:58:14 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: Tektronix 4107 In-Reply-To: ; from Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) on Thu, Apr 13, 2000 at 12:56:58AM -0500 References: <200004122129.QAA00995@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <20000412235813.C30038@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Thu, Apr 13, 2000 at 12:56:58AM -0500, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > This was a rather neat little graphics terminal (CRT). You could draw all > sorts of shapes on the screen by issuing commands such as "Square > 0,0,10,10" or "Line 4,4,20,20", etc. > > They were pretty exciting back in 1984 or so (when I first saw one), but > probably long since outdone by VGA/SVGA graphics ... I've wondered what happened to those... or the specs on the graphics language... wondered if it'd be a good lightweight substitute for X on older equipment. -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From doug at blinkenlights.com Thu Apr 13 03:09:35 2000 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: A New Find In-Reply-To: <003b01bfa4ed$4010a3e0$2ddab0d0@default> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Apr 2000, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > The other day I was given a Sym model 1 in a custom case of black > metal with wooden sides and a built in keyboard sold by Synertek. Cool! OK, my turn to brag. I haven't been very actively collecting stuff for the last year or so, but there were a few moments of weakness when I couldn't help myself. A coupla weeks ago, I picked up a big load from an ex-Rockwell engineer. I haven't gone through all of the goodies yet, but here's a glimpse. An AIM65 in the coolest case I've ever seen (similar, but perhaps not as nice as your SYM case): http://www.blinkenlights.com/classiccmp/aim65/aim65a.jpg A Rockwell Design Center (yeah, pretend you've heard of this one): http://www.blinkenlights.com/classiccmp/aim65/design3.jpg But wait, there's more! I don't have pics yet, but for your salivating pleasure.... a 1966 DEC logic trainer, a 1955 GENIAC (my second -- I needed one to play with and one to preserve), and (drumroll) a 1975 Sphere manual! Cheers, Doug From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Thu Apr 13 04:39:27 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: A New Find In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Apr 2000 04:09:35 -0400 (EDT) Doug Salot wrote: > On Wed, 12 Apr 2000, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > > The other day I was given a Sym model 1 in a custom case of black > > metal with wooden sides and a built in keyboard sold by Synertek. I also have a Sym-1, complete with box containing power supply. > But wait, there's more! I don't have pics yet, but for your salivating > pleasure.... a 1966 DEC logic trainer... I have the manual for one of those, but I've never seen the actual machine (apart from the picture on the cover of the book). It's a patch-panel type of thing, with lights, switches and logic gates, yes? Of course, it's an old DEC manual and is now turning brown and crumbly. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From stevemas at persys.com Thu Apr 13 05:21:05 2000 From: stevemas at persys.com (Steve Mastrianni) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: Home network routing setup In-Reply-To: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F0740CB3B@ALFEXC5> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000413061430.01beb070@persys.com> Trivial. I use a Windows 98 box which comes with internet sharing. This was the old NAT95 product they acquired from Nevod. It acts as a simple firewall and DHCP server. I found an old 266MHz system with a small disk and 64MB of memory, installed Win98 and enabled the internet sharing. It nicely serves up my six machines and two network printers through my cable modem. I had an NT 4 machine running MS Proxy Server, but that was a very heavy-handed approach to the problem. At one time, I also tried WinGate but it didn't work well, I was always having problems accessing odd port numbers. The Win98 solution is fast and easy to install. I've never rebooted the server. FWIW. At 10:38 PM 4/12/2000 -0500, you wrote: >Sorry for the partially off-topic question, but I'm stumped. > >I'd like to set up more of my systems in a home network environment, but I >don't really properly understand routing and am looking for some help. > >My internet access is through a cable modem that acts as a DHCP server, >allocating up to three IP addresses to specifically-named systems. For >instance systems "foo1", "foo2" and "foo3" will get IP addresses from the >modem, while "foo4", "foo5" and "foo6" will not. > >I thought about snagging a small PC with a couple of NICs and running >ShareTheNet or WinGate, but I recently picked up a used Alpha running NT >with a pair of NICs that I'd like to try out as a router. Right now, the >Alpha has one of the magic system names (foo1), so one of the network >adapters gets a DHCP-served IP address. I have the other adapter's IP >address defined as 192.168.0.101, with the mask as 255.255.255.0 and no >gateway defined. > >I want to set the following systems up with static IP addresses: > > 192.168.0.105 SGI Indy > 192.168.0.106 Symbolics Lisp Machine > 192.168.0.107 NeXT Cube > 192.168.0.108 Pentium II Laptop > 192.168.0.109 Pentium Desktop > 192.168.0.110 DEC Shark > 192.168.0.111 iOpener > >I'd like to set up these machines to use 192.168.0.102 as their gateway. >Seems to me that if I have the Alpha set up properly, I shouldn't need to do >any special route definitions on the other systems, right? > >So, any suggestions on how I should set up the two NICs on the Alpha under >NT 4.0? > >-- Tony From hallsf at alfredtech.edu Thu Apr 13 07:47:33 2000 From: hallsf at alfredtech.edu (Scott F. Hall) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: ESR.DrNim References: <001a01bfa4ef$71ed7670$6c64c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <38F5C1E5.87F006BB@alfredtech.edu> The old computer-related games made by ESR (Digicomps 1 and 2, Think a Dot, Dr. Nim) are visible at http://www.computergarage.org/Garage/j-hist.shtml#History Anyone have a good explanation of the mechanism involved in that Dr. Nim game and how it works? Are there any springs/rubber bands or do those pivotable pieces just rock freely? Looks like Dr. Nim might be an easy one to reproduce from scratch, but only if I can get more info on it. Thanks, Scott F. Hall, Alfred, NY From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Apr 13 08:01:52 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: OT: Home network routing setup In-Reply-To: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F0740CB3B@ALFEXC5> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000413075931.021d8cf0@pc> At 10:38 PM 4/12/00 -0500, you wrote: >I thought about snagging a small PC with a couple of NICs and running >ShareTheNet or WinGate, but I recently picked up a used Alpha running NT Speaking of obsolete, obscure and potentially classic WinNT systems, I've got a rare prototype (circa 1994) Acer MIPS machine on eBay now at http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=306521190 and the bid is at $10.50. It's got WinNT Server 3.5 and MS VC/MIPS on the hard drive. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Apr 13 08:07:08 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: Shugart 800-2 In-Reply-To: <200004130121.UAA01797@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000413080327.021c3880@pc> At 08:21 PM 4/12/00 -0500, you wrote: >Also, does anyone recall the URL to the web site with the Terak and Shugart >manuals that have been scanned in? http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~alexios/MACHINE-ROOM/Terak_8510@a.html http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~itda/ - John From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Thu Apr 13 08:47:08 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: Tektronix 4107 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000a01bfa54e$c36ac610$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> -- Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) > This was a rather neat little graphics terminal (CRT). You could draw all > sorts of shapes on the screen by issuing commands such as "Square > 0,0,10,10" or "Line 4,4,20,20", etc. > They were pretty exciting back in 1984 or so (when I first saw one), but > probably long since outdone by VGA/SVGA graphics ... I helped sell an installation of 60 of these little buggers to G.E. back in 1984-5. The cheapest I ever saw them since was $150 at "Wierd Stuff Warehouse" 5 years later. All I have today is a nice set of manuals. Tek's documentation rivaled H.P.'s in clarity and construction (I'd actually put them slightly ahead of DEC). They were a little slow but had enough memory for a decent review sized plot. I think the specs allowed for something like 128 byte commands saved locally behind the Fkeys. One of our team hacked it so as to get a key to store over 8K. There were some notable early market failures from Tek doing Vector paint in raster HW, but by this time they were really getting it right. Ask me sometime about their ink-jet printer... If you ever had to clean one of them you really got to to play 'Joe Surgeon'. "Brought to you by David Letterman and Heart Bypass surgery" "Clamp!" "Sponge!" John A. From hofmanwb at worldonline.nl Thu Apr 13 16:42:07 2000 From: hofmanwb at worldonline.nl (W.B.(Wim) Hofman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: IP11 test manual wanted Message-ID: <20000413134841.A5B8536B47@pandora.worldonline.nl> I have IP11 test programs on RX01 floppy, but where and how do I get the manual for these tests? I live in Arnhem, The Netherlands Thanks in advance, Wim From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Apr 13 10:04:37 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: Tektronix 4107 In-Reply-To: ; from transit@lerctr.org on Thu, Apr 13, 2000 at 12:56:58AM -0500 References: <200004122129.QAA00995@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <20000413110437.A17707@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Apr 13, 2000 at 12:56:58AM -0500, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > This was a rather neat little graphics terminal (CRT). You could draw all > sorts of shapes on the screen by issuing commands such as "Square > 0,0,10,10" or "Line 4,4,20,20", etc. IIRC the 4105 used the Hitachi HD63484 graphics processor, maybe the 4107 used the same thing? If so it was a pretty cool chip, if a bit slow, with all kinds of fancy commands for lines and circles and rectangles and region fill etc. It was used on some of the early Number 9 boards too. John Wilson D Bit From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu Apr 13 10:06:06 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: The best docs I've ever seen Message-ID: <20000413150606.22046.qmail@hotmail.com> Hi, FWIW, the best docs I've ever run across are the old Interdata/Perkin-Elmer manuals for my 7/32's, 3203's, 3205, and 3210's... the 7/32 manuals even include a complete listing of the microcode! All of the test program source code is included in the test docs, and I have the source code for the OS also. Will J ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Apr 13 11:01:39 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: disposing of computer junk was Re: Computerworld Article In-Reply-To: <200004122129.QAA00995@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000413110139.266fe6e0@mailhost.intellistar.net> I have some friends of mine that have been selling computer scrap to the Chinese. I just heard that the Chinese government has put a stop to the importation of all computer scrap. The word is that it may be temporary or it may not. If the ban is permanent then I foresee major problems with the disposal of computer scrap in this country in the very near future. Joe At 04:29 PM 4/12/00 -0500, you wrote: >Computerworld's front page article is on computer junk, ie, the problems >companies are having with disposing of 'old' computers. Just thought >i would mention it in case someone wanted to read the on-line version: > >http://www.computerworld.com/home/print.nsf/all/000410D386 > >-Lawrence LeMay > From doug at blinkenlights.com Thu Apr 13 10:16:58 2000 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: A New Find In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Apr 2000, John Honniball wrote: > > But wait, there's more! I don't have pics yet, but for your salivating > > pleasure.... a 1966 DEC logic trainer... > > I have the manual for one of those, but I've never seen the actual > machine (apart from the picture on the cover of the book). It's a > patch-panel type of thing, with lights, switches and logic gates, yes? That's the one! Anybody else have one? There are several interesting options that I don't have, like the rotary dial input device. > Of course, it's an old DEC manual and is now turning brown and > crumbly. Hmm, could you be bribed to scan or copy the thing before it crumbles into oblivion? BTW, friend Eric has a later (1969) manual for a different DEC trainer: http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/dec/computer_lab/ Cheers, Doug From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Thu Apr 13 10:35:21 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: A New Find In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Apr 2000 11:16:58 -0400 (EDT) Doug Salot wrote: > On Thu, 13 Apr 2000, John Honniball wrote: > > I have the manual for one of those, but I've never seen the actual > > machine (apart from the picture on the cover of the > > book). > > That's the one! Anybody else have one? There are several interesting > options that I don't have, like the rotary dial input device. ... > Hmm, could you be bribed to scan or copy the thing before it crumbles into > oblivion? BTW, friend Eric has a later (1969) manual for a different DEC > trainer: > http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/dec/computer_lab/ Oohh, didn't know there were two different types of DEC logic trainer. In fact, my manual is just like the 1969 "computer_lab" URL above. Sorry for the confusion! Do you have a manual for your 1966 version? How different is it from the 1969 one? -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 13 10:30:18 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: Shugart 800-2 References: <200004130121.UAA01797@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <001e01bfa55e$5acf30e0$0400c0a8@winbook> As others have already said, it's SSDD. The -2 designation refers to the jumpering, which, in this case, is set up for use in an intelligent controller setting (normally with a dedicated microcontroller) that has the ability to exploit the various radial access options provided on the drives' logic boards. These enable such things as radial step, radial select, radial ready, (enabling more than one drive to accept/execute commands at a time). These can speed up disk drive operation by quite a little, but at the cost of a dedicated intelligence or, perhaps, LOTS of code to optimize the process as it would be in a dedicated controller. When it comes down to transfer of data, only one drive can be "awake" at a time. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Lawrence LeMay To: Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 7:21 PM Subject: Shugart 800-2 > Does anyone know if a Shugart 800-2 8" floppy drive is DSDD or not? I have > been getting different hints on various web pages. > > Also, does anyone recall the URL to the web site with the Terak and Shugart > manuals that have been scanned in? > > -Lawrence LeMay From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 13 10:34:27 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges References: <38F534FD.895BC719@idirect.com> Message-ID: <001f01bfa55e$5b989b60$0400c0a8@winbook> A local surplus vendor just closed his doors last week. He closed for nopn-business reasons, but he had some number of these old cartridges around, having had them since the day he opened up. They were always overpriced and the drives were only popular enough for a short period in the early '90's that having the media available was warranted. You might check not because their prices are good, however, but because they were the last ones I in whose inventory I recall seeing the 650 MB platters. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerome Fine To: Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 8:46 PM Subject: WTB: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges > I am looking for a source for the 600 Mbyte magneto optical > 5 1/4" cartridges with 512 byte per sector. These will be > used in a SONY SMO S-501 5 1/4" magneto optical disk drive. > > I have also found a SONY SMO S-501 drive, but I would like to > acquire a second one (or a compatible) as a backup. > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine From marvin at rain.org Thu Apr 13 10:45:01 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: ESR.DrNim References: <001a01bfa4ef$71ed7670$6c64c0d0@ajp166> <38F5C1E5.87F006BB@alfredtech.edu> Message-ID: <38F5EB7D.A461DABB@rain.org> "Scott F. Hall" wrote: > > Anyone have a good explanation of the mechanism involved in that Dr. Nim > game and how it works? Are there any springs/rubber bands or do those > pivotable pieces just rock freely? Looks like Dr. Nim might be an easy > one to reproduce from scratch, but only if I can get more info on it. A 1968 book, "Game Playing with Computers" by Donald D. Spencer has a good description of the logic behind the game. The basic secret of winning is to always present your opponent with an even position. To determine an odd or even position, convert the number of coins in each row to binary, i.e.: 5 Pennies 101 4 Nickels 100 3 Dimes 011 Add the columns. An even position is described if *each* column adds up to zero or an even number; otherwise the position is odd. In the above case, it is an odd position. The left column is even (1+1+0), the second column is odd (0+0+1) and the third column is even (1+0+1). The exercise of converting the above explaination to a mechanical device is left as an exercise for the reader :). From marvin at rain.org Thu Apr 13 10:55:33 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: A New Find References: Message-ID: <38F5EDF5.8C989A8F@rain.org> Doug Salot wrote: > > On Thu, 13 Apr 2000, John Honniball wrote: > > > > But wait, there's more! I don't have pics yet, but for your salivating > > > pleasure.... a 1966 DEC logic trainer... > > > > I have the manual for one of those, but I've never seen the actual > > machine (apart from the picture on the cover of the book). It's a > > patch-panel type of thing, with lights, switches and logic gates, yes? > > That's the one! Anybody else have one? There are several interesting > options that I don't have, like the rotary dial input device. Just out of curiosity, is this actually a manual or a workbook? What I have is the "Computer Lab Workbook", copyright 1968, with a picture of the lab on the front with what looks to be other Dec equipment in the background. That logic trainer is one cool piece of equipment, and I have been casually looking for one for 20 years or so. Back in 1971 or so, IIRC DEC also offered a free Introduction to Digital Logic course (paperwork only, no hardware) in about a 20 section or so mail-in type of course. I took it and still have the course notes they sent somewhere. From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 13 11:04:59 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: Home network routing setup References: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F0740CB3B@ALFEXC5> Message-ID: <003501bfa562$05507440$0400c0a8@winbook> You might want to look into simply upgrading to Win98's Second Edition. I recall reading that it comes with a gateway program that would allow you to skip the Wingate or whatever. Check it out for yourself, though, as I'm not well informed about this detail. If you use Windows, that's an easy solution. If not, I'd say it involves too much pain. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Eros, Anthony To: Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 9:38 PM Subject: Home network routing setup > Sorry for the partially off-topic question, but I'm stumped. > > I'd like to set up more of my systems in a home network environment, but I > don't really properly understand routing and am looking for some help. > > My internet access is through a cable modem that acts as a DHCP server, > allocating up to three IP addresses to specifically-named systems. For > instance systems "foo1", "foo2" and "foo3" will get IP addresses from the > modem, while "foo4", "foo5" and "foo6" will not. > > I thought about snagging a small PC with a couple of NICs and running > ShareTheNet or WinGate, but I recently picked up a used Alpha running NT > with a pair of NICs that I'd like to try out as a router. Right now, the > Alpha has one of the magic system names (foo1), so one of the network > adapters gets a DHCP-served IP address. I have the other adapter's IP > address defined as 192.168.0.101, with the mask as 255.255.255.0 and no > gateway defined. > > I want to set the following systems up with static IP addresses: > > 192.168.0.105 SGI Indy > 192.168.0.106 Symbolics Lisp Machine > 192.168.0.107 NeXT Cube > 192.168.0.108 Pentium II Laptop > 192.168.0.109 Pentium Desktop > 192.168.0.110 DEC Shark > 192.168.0.111 iOpener > > I'd like to set up these machines to use 192.168.0.102 as their gateway. > Seems to me that if I have the Alpha set up properly, I shouldn't need to do > any special route definitions on the other systems, right? > > So, any suggestions on how I should set up the two NICs on the Alpha under > NT 4.0? > > -- Tony From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 13 11:17:45 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:45 2005 Subject: HPIB to HPIL adapter References: Message-ID: <004901bfa563$cda5be40$0400c0a8@winbook> Well, there was a guy here in Denver who made a great deal of money from the Commodore community with his Commodore-HPIB==>Epson-printer interface. He started a pretty large company from that one single device for the Commodore. I'm not even sure that the original interface, unmodified from the COMMODORE version, would talk to HPIB devices. I'll have to investigate the process of writing control routines for the C and Pascal versions I routinely use. If there's QBASIC-compatible BASIC software out there that may be worth a look. HP did like BASIC back in the '80's. I once used the serial interface on my logic analyzer to help me with producing a "clone" of a dongle for one of the many dongle-protected sogtware bits I wanted to investigate. This provided a means to do that, since the software under Windows (3.1x) was considerably more trouble to patch than the dongle was to emulate. I'm likely to find that the GPIB is a bit faster than the serial interface. That might open some doors. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 5:25 PM Subject: Re: HPIB to HPIL adapter > > > > I was exposed to HPIL back in the '80's and, while there were some fancy > > instruments, e.g. 6-digit DVM, I've not seen it used since then. In fact, > > HPIL was one of the many things that HP did _right_ in the mid 1980s. > It appears (to the user/programmer) as almost a serial version of HPIB, > and it supports 31 peripherals (960? if you use extended HPIL addressing > IIRC) on single loop. > > AFAIK it was only ever really used by HP (there were 3rd party products > that used it, but all that I've seen were peripherals to HP calculators), > although HP did document it completely and sold the custom (1LB3-0001 > IIRC) chip that acted as an interface between the loop and a normal > microprocessor bus. > > I believe that neither these chips nor any HPIL devices are still in > production, though. > > Since the higher levels of HPIL and HPIB are almost the same, the HP82169 > HPIB interface allows you to control HPIB instruments from an HPIL > controller or vice versa with few problems. > > > the GPIB is something I've seen surprisingly little, except on equipment > > Well, almost all digitally-controlled test equipment supports it. > > As regards computers, just about anything HP would either have an GPIB > port as standard or at least have one as an option. All 'classic' PERQs have > GPIB as standard as well. Commodore PETs (and P500s...) have a somewhat > mangled varient of GPIB that works most of the time with standard GPIB > peripherals (although the reverse is not always true -- there are PET > peripherals that do not work on normal GPIB controllers). DEC made GPIB > cards for the Unibus (IB11) and Q-bus (IBV11). And of course there are > ISA cards for it. And _dozens_ of machines that I've missed... > > > The LabView is not irrelevant, but only because there are people willing to > > pay to have it used in their installations. I'm perfectly satisfied to use > > the GPIB command set as part of a program I write myself. I've found that > > approach quite satisfactory, and there's certainly a shorter learning curve > > than with some GUI-thingie that I can't manipulate comfortably because > > someone else designed it. > > I must admit that from what I've seen of Labview, I don't like it. If I > want an instrument front panel kind of interface then I'll reach over and > turn the physical knob on the physical front of the instrument. If I want > to automatically control the instrument then _I'd_ be happier writing a > program in some suitable language to do it. > > > > > Because I've had so little experience with the GPIB, and because I've got no > > doc's on the National Instruments GPIB card I have, I'm at the mercy of > > those who may have and be willing to "share" whatever details and drivers > > they have. I'm open to any suggestions and your "spiritual guidance" is > > always welcome. > > I wonder how hard it would be to figure out how to program the card > directly? Does it use a standard GPIB controller chip (probably a TMS9914 > or an Intel 8291/8292 or an NEC 7210)? If so, get the data sheets on that > chip and then figure out how the address decoder, etc, on the NI card > works (ignore DMA if you can, for all some GPIB cards support it). > > Then it's just a matter of writing functions to program the chip > appropriately to act as the system controller and to allow you to send > bytes, receive bytes and send commands. None are particularly hard to write. > > -tony > From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Apr 13 11:32:51 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: DEC Logic Trainers (was Re: A New Find) Message-ID: <20000413163251.12865.qmail@web613.mail.yahoo.com> --- Doug Salot wrote: > On Thu, 13 Apr 2000, John Honniball wrote: > > > > But wait, there's more! I don't have pics yet, but for your salivating > > > pleasure.... a 1966 DEC logic trainer... > > Hmm, could you be bribed to scan or copy the thing before it crumbles into > oblivion? BTW, friend Eric has a later (1969) manual for a different DEC > trainer: > http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/dec/computer_lab/ I have an 8"x11" workbook for a TTL-version of the DEC Logic trainer. I got it as a kid, so many of the pages are scribbled up with my attempts to solve the problems. I regret that now, but at the time, the book was free to me and photocopies cost money. Maybe I'll scan it (in my copious spare time) and edit out the additions with Photoshop. I would leave them in, but they are very poorly hand-drawn. I was between 9 and 13 when I got the book. I did not use a drawing template. I never have seen any of DEC's logic trainers close up. 20 years ago, I wanted one lots. I still want one, but realistically, what would I do with it? -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com From doug at blinkenlights.com Thu Apr 13 11:30:44 2000 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: A New Find In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Apr 2000, John Honniball wrote: > Oohh, didn't know there were two different types of DEC > logic trainer. In fact, my manual is just like the 1969 > "computer_lab" URL above. Sorry for the confusion! > > Do you have a manual for your 1966 version? How different > is it from the 1969 one? I don't have the manual, but I do have a 66/67 digital logic handbook, and the trainer I have appears on the cover of that handbook (as well as inside, of couse). It's external appearance is considerably different that the 69 version, but I think the basic technology -- flip chips -- is the same. I'm pretty sure there is a version even earlier than mine that used the original (c 1961) dec logic modules. -- Doug From transit at lerctr.org Thu Apr 13 11:45:24 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: Tektronix 4107 In-Reply-To: <000a01bfa54e$c36ac610$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Apr 2000, John Allain wrote: > > -- Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) > > > This was a rather neat little graphics terminal (CRT). You could draw all > > sorts of shapes on the screen by issuing commands such as "Square > > 0,0,10,10" or "Line 4,4,20,20", etc. > > > They were pretty exciting back in 1984 or so (when I first saw one), but > > probably long since outdone by VGA/SVGA graphics ... > > > I helped sell an installation of 60 of these little buggers > to G.E. back in 1984-5. The cheapest I ever saw them since How much did they go for? I recall some outrageous number ($5K???) > was $150 at "Wierd Stuff Warehouse" 5 years later. All I > have today is a nice set of manuals. Tek's documentation > rivaled H.P.'s in clarity and construction (I'd actually put > them slightly ahead of DEC). > I only got to see the 4107 manual once (like most of the "good stuff" at our school, it was secreted away so that only the high muck-ee-mucks could use it). But there was, if I recall correctly, a "help" command that displayed most, if not all of the command syntax... [...] > > Ask me sometime about their ink-jet printer... If you > ever had to clean one of them you really got to to play > 'Joe Surgeon'. I remember one of these in the computer lab, connected to a larger Tek graphics terminal (a 4105?). The main purpose was, I think, to print output from the cifplot program (before that, we were using a Versatec electrostatic printer). They didn't like us students using the ink-jet for other purposes (they pasted signs all over that to that effect). Also, they left it on all the time (perhaps if it was shut down, it took too long to start up or required more cleaning) Of course, people tried tricks like moving the terminal connections around so that they could log into the printer terminal (that particular terminal line was set up so that only selected people could log in and use it). This was all in 1984-1985, at the Engineering computer room at UC Santa Barbara. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Apr 13 11:53:01 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: Lubing Shugart 800,801's? Message-ID: <000413125301.2020036b@trailing-edge.com> I've been sorting through a large pile of Shugart 800's and 801's here, and many of them have goo on the head stepper lead screw. It looks like white lithium grease, undoubtedly put there by a previous owner or all-thumbs tech, as the Shugart manuals say (section 3.3): Do not lubricate the SA800/801; oil will allow dust and dirt to accumulate. However the goo got there on the leadscrew, it's so thick now that it's quite difficult to turn it - not only is the stepper motor not up to the job, I can barely turn it by hand in some cases. I have found that "Liquid Wrench" (yes, that stuff you get at the auto parts store) does a pretty good job of at least softening the goo temporarily, enough so that I can actually run the drive through diagnostics, but eventually the solvents evaporate and I'm left with thick goo. Is there an easy way to clean this goo off without completely disassembling the stepper motor/leadscrew assembly and doing the subsequent realignment? I can go in and do a half-assed job of cleaning the goo off the threads with Q-tips and skewers, but there's really a lot there and this doesn't get it all. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From transit at lerctr.org Thu Apr 13 12:17:56 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: Tektronix 4107 In-Reply-To: <20000413110437.A17707@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: While net-searching for a Tek 4107, I ran across this site: http://www.recycledgoods.com/ They want $150 for a Tek 4107...and they have loads of other stuff as well... ------------------------------------------------------------------ Charles P. Hobbs transit@lerctr.org From sipke at wxs.nl Thu Apr 13 12:44:30 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: Home network routing setup References: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F0740CB3B@ALFEXC5> Message-ID: <009801bfa56f$efe3cd60$030101ac@boll.casema.net> I use an old 486 with small HD and LINUX to do the dirty routing work Install Slackware (not to bloated) with ppp, ipchains, maquerading, wvdial or pppd (if dailup is needed) and the PMfirewall software. I still have the option to use part of the HD for FTP or SAMBA. I may even be possible to use a HD-less 486 system. (take the fan out in the PSU to reduce the noise and without a HD I don't think youll miss it) see: The linux Router Project http://www.linuxrouter.org/ or: PicoBSD http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/picobsd.html Maybe you wan't to use the Alpha for more demanding work I've heard that lots of companies in the US and Europe have a surplus of "obsolete" Pentium I and 486 equipment, so it should be easy to get a few........ ----- Original Message ----- From: Eros, Anthony To: Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 5:38 AM Subject: Home network routing setup > Sorry for the partially off-topic question, but I'm stumped. > > I'd like to set up more of my systems in a home network environment, but I > don't really properly understand routing and am looking for some help. > > My internet access is through a cable modem that acts as a DHCP server, > allocating up to three IP addresses to specifically-named systems. For > instance systems "foo1", "foo2" and "foo3" will get IP addresses from the > modem, while "foo4", "foo5" and "foo6" will not. > > I thought about snagging a small PC with a couple of NICs and running > ShareTheNet or WinGate, but I recently picked up a used Alpha running NT > with a pair of NICs that I'd like to try out as a router. Right now, the > Alpha has one of the magic system names (foo1), so one of the network > adapters gets a DHCP-served IP address. I have the other adapter's IP > address defined as 192.168.0.101, with the mask as 255.255.255.0 and no > gateway defined. > > I want to set the following systems up with static IP addresses: > > 192.168.0.105 SGI Indy > 192.168.0.106 Symbolics Lisp Machine > 192.168.0.107 NeXT Cube > 192.168.0.108 Pentium II Laptop > 192.168.0.109 Pentium Desktop > 192.168.0.110 DEC Shark > 192.168.0.111 iOpener > > I'd like to set up these machines to use 192.168.0.102 as their gateway. > Seems to me that if I have the Alpha set up properly, I shouldn't need to do > any special route definitions on the other systems, right? > > So, any suggestions on how I should set up the two NICs on the Alpha under > NT 4.0? > > -- Tony From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 13 13:06:40 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: Lubing Shugart 800,801's? References: <000413125301.2020036b@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <007701bfa573$06149ee0$0400c0a8@winbook> When they say "do not lubricate ..." they're not lying! The grit and grime that finds its way into the leadscrew will act as lapping compound and abrade the lead screw, which in most of the newer lead-screw-driven mechanisms is plastic, and soon, you'll have a drive with too much backlash on the lead screw, which will result in positioning error, depending on the direction in which the lead screw was last moved. I would probably feel comfortable cleaning out the gunk with a penetrating oil wuch as what you mentioned, but I would vigorously pursue the problem of getting the rest of the sticky residue out with a volatile solvent. That, in turn, threatens to soften the plastic head-assembly, part of which is the "nut" for the lead screw, so don't get any of the benzene or methyl alcohol, or acetone, on the plastic parts, lest they soften and change their shape. I'd suggest that you look at the service manual and consider whether this bothers you enough to warrant going through the painstaking process of disassembling and cleaning the head transports in order to get rid of the grease. If you're careful, you might find a way to brush out the threads, but they'll continue to accumulate dirt and grit so long as you have grease on the "nut" which is part of the head assembly. The only sure way is to disassemble and clean them such that they don't have a place for the grease to hide. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 10:53 AM Subject: Lubing Shugart 800,801's? > I've been sorting through a large pile of Shugart 800's and 801's here, > and many of them have goo on the head stepper lead screw. It looks > like white lithium grease, undoubtedly put there by a previous owner > or all-thumbs tech, as the Shugart manuals say (section 3.3): > > Do not lubricate the SA800/801; oil will allow dust and dirt to > accumulate. > > However the goo got there on the leadscrew, it's so thick now that it's > quite difficult to turn it - not only is the stepper motor not up to the > job, I can barely turn it by hand in some cases. > > I have found that "Liquid Wrench" (yes, that stuff you get at the auto > parts store) does a pretty good job of at least softening the goo temporarily, > enough so that I can actually run the drive through diagnostics, > but eventually the solvents evaporate and I'm left with thick goo. Is > there an easy way to clean this goo off without completely disassembling > the stepper motor/leadscrew assembly and doing the subsequent realignment? > I can go in and do a half-assed job of cleaning the goo off the threads > with Q-tips and skewers, but there's really a lot there and this doesn't > get it all. > > -- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From dpeschel at eskimo.com Thu Apr 13 13:07:55 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: A disturbing conversation about documentation In-Reply-To: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D63AB8FA@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> from "Steve Robertson" at Apr 12, 2000 10:26:34 AM Message-ID: <200004131807.LAA10788@eskimo.com> > Actually, the first thing that gets tossed is the development "process". > > As a Quality Assurance Engineer, this is an issue that I have to deal with > *every* single day. Frankly, I don't expect it to get any better. :-( > > If anyone cares to continue the discussion, I'll be glad to elaborate... It's definitely true in my experience. I test Microsoft source code. I don't know much about how it works, but every sign points to its being ugly, inefficient, etc. Our own test system is quite hacked up too. -- Derek From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Apr 13 13:22:22 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: ESR.DrNim In-Reply-To: <38F5C1E5.87F006BB@alfredtech.edu> References: <001a01bfa4ef$71ed7670$6c64c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000413112222.009af4a0@agora.rdrop.com> At 07:47 AM 4/13/00 -0500, you wrote: >The old computer-related games made by ESR (Digicomps 1 and 2, Think a >Dot, Dr. Nim) are visible at > >http://www.computergarage.org/Garage/j-hist.shtml#History > >Anyone have a good explanation of the mechanism involved in that Dr. Nim >game and how it works? Are there any springs/rubber bands or do those >pivotable pieces just rock freely? Looks like Dr. Nim might be an easy >one to reproduce from scratch, but only if I can get more info on it. In this case, what you see is what there is. And I can say that with some certanty since the object in question resides about three feet away from my current position. There are no hidden springs or rubber bands used on Dr. Nim. Like the Think-A-Dot and DigiComp-2, it is cycled totally by gravity and the weight of the marbles. The mechanisms in all three show some commonalities in their designs. Along that line, I've been tinkering with an 8 foot tall (!) version of the DigiComp-2 using billiard balls to display at VCF IV. B^} -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From hallsf at alfredtech.edu Thu Apr 13 14:23:28 2000 From: hallsf at alfredtech.edu (Scott F. Hall) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: MacIIcx.HELP References: <001a01bfa4ef$71ed7670$6c64c0d0@ajp166> <38F5C1E5.87F006BB@alfredtech.edu> <38F5EB7D.A461DABB@rain.org> Message-ID: <38F61EB0.B5F50FCC@alfredtech.edu> This nice older lady was in The Shack asking for "a mouse for a Mac IIcx." She apparently got this box for free sadly lacking the mouse. The Shack staff boy wasn't helpful (surprise, surprise), so I intervened. Any of you nice Apple Mac people out there have a mouse for one of these to give away or sell to this lady so that this machine can live again? Let me know by e-mail and I'll call her or just call her directly yourself: Addie at 716-695-2638. Thanks, Scott F. Hall, Alfred Station (western upstate, Gateway to The Great White North), New York From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Apr 13 13:25:01 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: Lubing Shugart 800,801's? Message-ID: <000413142501.20200368@trailing-edge.com> >When they say "do not lubricate ..." they're not lying! If only the previous owners/techs had understood this! > The grit and grime >that finds its way into the leadscrew will act as lapping compound and >abrade the lead screw, which in most of the newer lead-screw-driven >mechanisms is plastic, and soon, you'll have a drive with too much backlash >on the lead screw, which will result in positioning error, depending on the >direction in which the lead screw was last moved. I've got 14 Shugart 800's and 801's from this latest pile now undergoing the DSD Hyperdiagnostics simultaneously (lots of head kerklunking!) and I see no evidence of alignment problems on any of them. I'm strongly of the opinion that 95% of alignment problems are created when folks go in and fool with the alignment when there's nothing wrong in the first place. > I would probably feel >comfortable cleaning out the gunk with a penetrating oil wuch as what you >mentioned, but I would vigorously pursue the problem of getting the rest of >the sticky residue out with a volatile solvent. I think "Liquid Wrench" is both a penetrating oil and a mix of volatile solvents. And in spraying it in I added my own oil to the lubricating mess that shouldn't be there, but now at least I can turn the leadscrew and run the drives through their paces. >That, in turn, threatens to soften the plastic head-assembly, part of which >is the "nut" for the lead screw, so don't get any of the benzene or methyl >alcohol, or acetone, on the plastic parts, lest they soften and change their >shape. I appreciate that, I learned long ago to test chemicals against plastics when a can of TV tuner I had dissolved the plastic shaft in an old TV... >I'd suggest that you look at the service manual and consider whether this >bothers you enough to warrant going through the painstaking process of >disassembling and cleaning the head transports in order to get rid of the >grease. If you're careful, you might find a way to brush out the threads, >but they'll continue to accumulate dirt and grit so long as you have grease >on the "nut" which is part of the head assembly. Yes, I can do a halfway decent job with skewers and Q-tips to get the goo out of the threads, but there certainly is some still left in the threads on the head assembly/pre-load nut and that I can't get at without removing the whole assembly and destroying the (currently fine) alignment. Tim. From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 13 13:49:06 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: Home network routing setup In-Reply-To: <200004130458.AAA23002@armigeron.com> References: <4.3.1.2.20000412211927.00b4ea60@208.226.86.10> from "Chuck McManis" at Apr 12, 2000 09:20:38 PM Message-ID: >gateway set to the machine with two NICs. Then he'll have to run software >to NAT (Network Address Translation) his internal private addresses to one >of the public addresses. I know it's possible under Linux or FreeBSD but I >don't know about NT. > > -spc (And for such a simple network there is no need to run routed unless > he wants to learn how to use routed) If you want a firewall and to do NAT you should take a look at OpenBSD. It's not quite as easy to setup NAT on OpenBSD as it is to setup IPmasq on Linux. However, OpenBSD's main focus is security. It's also possible to setup NAT on OpenBSD to redirect certain ports to machines inside your firewall so they can provide certain services. I've been running OpenBSD on an AlphaStation 200 4/233 for about a year and a half. Acting just as a Firewall, NAT, Web, and FTP servert the RAM requirements are nice and light. When I set it up, I'd planned on using Linux, but found OpenBSD meshed with the hardware I had on hand better and was more secure. Still my ideal solution would be to have that AS200 running VMS, but there seems to be a serious lack of Firewall and NAT software for VMS :^( Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 13 12:44:33 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: Shugart 800-2 In-Reply-To: <200004130121.UAA01797@caesar.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Apr 12, 0 08:21:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 460 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000413/ba4fd740/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 13 13:02:52 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: The best docs I've ever seen In-Reply-To: <20000413150606.22046.qmail@hotmail.com> from "Will Jennings" at Apr 13, 0 09:06:06 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2185 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000413/3a40fbbb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 13 13:11:01 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: Lubing Shugart 800,801's? In-Reply-To: <000413125301.2020036b@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Apr 13, 0 12:53:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2107 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000413/28145db4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 13 13:13:10 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: Question on disc drive encoder In-Reply-To: <000f01bfa505$57d416c0$3de3dfd0@cobweb.net> from "Bill Dawson" at Apr 13, 0 01:01:35 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 907 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000413/839c2b6e/attachment.ksh From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Thu Apr 13 12:42:17 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: Interak (was Re: Research Machines Link 480Z) References: Message-ID: <000001bfa57c$69ee0ec0$9edc93c3@proteus> Hi Tony, > There is a standard (pre-eurocard IIRC) card that's about the same >size as a Eurocard. It's got a 43 position edge connector with a >polarizing key in place of contact 37.... That sounds EXACTLY like the prototyping cards Greenbank used to sell for use with the machine. I've never come across them in any other application so I assumed they were unique to the Interak. > At one time RS components used to sell them... Thanks for that, I'll do a little digging and see if I can scare some up. BTW Anyone else on the list have an Interak? TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Thu Apr 13 13:14:09 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: CPU upgrades, pt. II Message-ID: <000101bfa57c$6b77bc00$9edc93c3@proteus> Anyone come across an "XTEND MICROPRODUCTS" processor upgrade card for MCA machines? I've found one inside my PS/2 Model 50, which I was previously unable to identify as the markings on the PCBs are hidden inside the "sandwich" IYKWIM. Anyway, it appears to replace the onboard '286(?) with a '486SLC (no real clues as to clock speed, but could be 25MHz) and has a socket next to the processor which I'm assuming is for a math co-processor? Would I be correct in assuming that the system will not start up if the 72-pin SIMM sockets on the upgrade board are empty....I've never gotten very far with this machine as I don't have any 72-pin SIMMs to try in it? TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 13 14:27:53 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: Lubing Shugart 800,801's? References: <000413142501.20200368@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <008901bfa57e$5da01da0$0400c0a8@winbook> When you're exercising these drives, be certain you don't step them too slowly, unless you go at rates on the order of 30-60 ms per step The slightly-too-slow step rate provided by most systems is the WORST and not "nearly right" as many people believe. Standard SHugart 800/801's tend to work pretty well at 6ms/setp, though they're spec'd for 8. The lead-screw drives in general, won't step at a rate faster than 5-6 ms per step, and some won't do even 6 ms steps. What I'd recommend is that you attempt to work them at 8 ms until the lead screw is quite nearly free of contaminated lubricant, and then try them again at 6. Stepping too slowly causes major stresses on the system because it is still ringing when the next step is taken. This puts pretty hard vibration on the system along the axis of the lead screw. That then puts lots of stress on the plastic head-assembly that contains the "nut" and it causes acoustic noise. If you're VERY close to the "right" rate for the individual drive, it will be very quiet. That's what you want. If you run 6 ms drives at 8-9 ms, they'll be prone to vibrate and make lots of noise, so you'll know it's wrong. The most likely victim will be index alignment, which normally relies on a single screw to hold the sensor in place. The radial alignment will suffer as well. You needn't concern yourself about azimuthal alignment unless you've taken the head positioning mechanism apart and loosened the guide rails. Depending on what sort of controller you use, you may find it beneficial or even necessary, with these old drives, to change the rate at which it steps by moderately extensive alterations to the subsystem timing in order to minimize the effects of system vibration. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 12:25 PM Subject: Re: Lubing Shugart 800,801's? > >When they say "do not lubricate ..." they're not lying! > > If only the previous owners/techs had understood this! > > > The grit and grime > >that finds its way into the leadscrew will act as lapping compound and > >abrade the lead screw, which in most of the newer lead-screw-driven > >mechanisms is plastic, and soon, you'll have a drive with too much backlash > >on the lead screw, which will result in positioning error, depending on the > >direction in which the lead screw was last moved. > > I've got 14 Shugart 800's and 801's from this latest pile now undergoing > the DSD Hyperdiagnostics simultaneously (lots of head kerklunking!) > and I see no evidence of alignment problems on any of them. I'm strongly > of the opinion that 95% of alignment problems are created when folks go > in and fool with the alignment when there's nothing wrong in the first > place. > > > I would probably feel > >comfortable cleaning out the gunk with a penetrating oil wuch as what you > >mentioned, but I would vigorously pursue the problem of getting the rest of > >the sticky residue out with a volatile solvent. > > I think "Liquid Wrench" is both a penetrating oil and a mix of volatile > solvents. And in spraying it in I added my own oil to the lubricating > mess that shouldn't be there, but now at least I can turn the leadscrew and > run the drives through their paces. > > >That, in turn, threatens to soften the plastic head-assembly, part of which > >is the "nut" for the lead screw, so don't get any of the benzene or methyl > >alcohol, or acetone, on the plastic parts, lest they soften and change their > >shape. > > I appreciate that, I learned long ago to test chemicals against plastics when > a can of TV tuner I had dissolved the plastic shaft in an old TV... > > >I'd suggest that you look at the service manual and consider whether this > >bothers you enough to warrant going through the painstaking process of > >disassembling and cleaning the head transports in order to get rid of the > >grease. If you're careful, you might find a way to brush out the threads, > >but they'll continue to accumulate dirt and grit so long as you have grease > >on the "nut" which is part of the head assembly. > > Yes, I can do a halfway decent job with skewers and Q-tips to get the goo > out of the threads, but there certainly is some still left in the threads > on the head assembly/pre-load nut and that I can't get at without > removing the whole assembly and destroying the (currently fine) alignment. > > Tim. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Apr 13 14:05:47 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: Lubing Shugart 800,801's? In-Reply-To: <000413125301.2020036b@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000413140547.348f6428@mailhost.intellistar.net> Tim, I have used spray carburator cleaner for cleaning dried up grease off of HP floppy drives. You might give it a try. Be carefull, it will dissolve some plastics. Joe At 12:53 PM 4/13/00 -0400, you wrote: >I've been sorting through a large pile of Shugart 800's and 801's here, >and many of them have goo on the head stepper lead screw. It looks >like white lithium grease, undoubtedly put there by a previous owner >or all-thumbs tech, as the Shugart manuals say (section 3.3): > > Do not lubricate the SA800/801; oil will allow dust and dirt to > accumulate. > >However the goo got there on the leadscrew, it's so thick now that it's >quite difficult to turn it - not only is the stepper motor not up to the >job, I can barely turn it by hand in some cases. > >I have found that "Liquid Wrench" (yes, that stuff you get at the auto >parts store) does a pretty good job of at least softening the goo temporarily, >enough so that I can actually run the drive through diagnostics, >but eventually the solvents evaporate and I'm left with thick goo. Is >there an easy way to clean this goo off without completely disassembling >the stepper motor/leadscrew assembly and doing the subsequent realignment? >I can go in and do a half-assed job of cleaning the goo off the threads >with Q-tips and skewers, but there's really a lot there and this doesn't >get it all. > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 13 14:33:51 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: Lubing Shugart 800,801's? References: Message-ID: <009501bfa57f$32b7d000$0400c0a8@winbook> I can't imagine anyone being concerned about 3-1/2" drives, but with these old 8" drives it is risky to put greasy lubricant on the lead screw. If you do need to lubricate the nut, then do so with some powered molybdenum disufide. That's what they put in grease to make it slippery, and it does well without the grease. If you put that on the nut and leadscrew, remembering that the nut is steel and the leadscrew is some form of polycarbonate, I'd say that doing everything to clean the leadscrew and nut that is available to you, then lubing it with a LIGHT coat of (one drop for every three drives) of WD40, then adding about 1/4 tsp of moly-disulfide, will probably do the trick. If they ever get sticky, clean and relube the lead screw and nut this way. Moly-disulfide is MUCH more slippery than graphite. It's also not in the least bit abrasive. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 12:11 PM Subject: Re: Lubing Shugart 800,801's? > > > > I've been sorting through a large pile of Shugart 800's and 801's here, > > and many of them have goo on the head stepper lead screw. It looks > > like white lithium grease, undoubtedly put there by a previous owner > > or all-thumbs tech, as the Shugart manuals say (section 3.3): > > > > Do not lubricate the SA800/801; oil will allow dust and dirt to > > accumulate. > > This being the same manual that tells you not to clean the heads.... > > Seriously, while excessive lubrication, and lubrication in the wrong > place, will cause all sorts of problems, I am convinced that carefully > lubriacting leadscrews (and cleaning off old lubricant and replacing it) > will reduce wear. Ditto for spindle bearings. > > FWIW, every other drive manufacture's service manual for drives with > leadscrews that I have suggests that you lubricate these leadscrews > (Sony, Teac, etc). > > > However the goo got there on the leadscrew, it's so thick now that it's > > quite difficult to turn it - not only is the stepper motor not up to the > > job, I can barely turn it by hand in some cases. > > Ouch... Somebody used the wrong lubricant.... > > > > > I have found that "Liquid Wrench" (yes, that stuff you get at the auto > > parts store) does a pretty good job of at least softening the goo temporarily, > > Most greases disolve in propan-2-ol (aka head cleaner ;-)). That's what I > normally use to shift old lubricant from such positions. > > If it's not too bad, then you can often remove it using propan-2-ol and a > q-tip (cotton bud). If it's turned to glue then you have to dismantle > things. And IIRC the SA800 is nasty because you have to lose alignment > when you do this (unlike some smaller drives where you can slip the head > carriage sideways off the leadscrew). > > > enough so that I can actually run the drive through diagnostics, > > but eventually the solvents evaporate and I'm left with thick goo. Is > > there an easy way to clean this goo off without completely disassembling > > the stepper motor/leadscrew assembly and doing the subsequent realignment? > > I think you're pretty much stuck with having to do a full alignment :-( > > -tony > From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 13 15:09:42 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: CPU upgrades, pt. II In-Reply-To: <000101bfa57c$6b77bc00$9edc93c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Apr 13, 2000 07:14:09 PM Message-ID: <200004132009.NAA08089@shell1.aracnet.com> > Would I be correct in assuming that the system will not start up if the > 72-pin SIMM sockets on the upgrade board are empty....I've never gotten very > far with this machine as I don't have any 72-pin SIMMs to try in it? I'm going to guess that it probably doesn't want just simple 72-pin SIMMs. I believe you need True Parity 72-pin SIMMs for this beasty. Zane From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu Apr 13 15:14:37 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: disposing of computer junk was Re: Computerworld Article Message-ID: <20000413201437.48729.qmail@hotmail.com> There's no problem... just give it to me.. Will J ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From elvey at hal.com Thu Apr 13 15:17:10 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: Lubing Shugart 800,801's? In-Reply-To: <000413125301.2020036b@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200004132017.NAA10668@civic.hal.com> CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > I can go in and do a half-assed job of cleaning the goo off the threads > with Q-tips and skewers, but there's really a lot there and this doesn't > get it all. Hi Tim As long as you are careful about plastics that might dissolve, you can use brake clean. I don't recommend carb cleaner because these sometimes contain caustics. Brake clean ( also from auto store ) is just dry cleaning fluids. Place a pile of paper towels under the screw and squirt it with the little red tube that comes with the can. The grease will dissolve and run into the towels. Be careful not to blow stuff where you don't want it. Cover everything else up with something to block any side spray. If the brake clean doesn't effect the nut, you can work it into that as well to get the grease out of it. One thing you can also try is to use some light oil to loosen the grease before attacking all with the brake clean. Dwight From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 13 14:28:07 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: HP-71B IDS (was Re: The best docs I've ever seen) In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <20000413192807.26517.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tony wrote: > Best docs for a handheld machines : HP71B Internal Design Specifications. > Volume 3 of that set contains the full commented source code to the ROMs > (BASIC and filesystem) I scanned all three volumes of the HP-71B Software IDS, as well as the two-volume HP-71B HP-IL IDS, the HP-IL Interface Specification, and the HP-IL Integrated Circuit User's Manual. Thousands of pages, several hundred megabytes even with Group 4 compression. (I'll try to avoid starting another rant about the inappropriateness of JPEG compression for text and line art.) I also scanned the HP-41C VASM source listings, originally distributed through PPC. These aren't as well-commented, since they weren't intended for customer release, but they're still useful if you're interested in 41 internals. These are now all available (along with a heck of a lot of other good material) on the CD set offered by the Museum of HP Calculators: http://www.hpmuseum.org/ Unfortunately I no longer have my copy of the HP-71B Hardware Internal Design Specifications, so I haven't yet been able to scan that. If anyone has that and will lend it to me, I'll scan it for the next update. From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Thu Apr 13 15:30:14 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: disposing of computer junk was Re: Computerworld Article In-Reply-To: <20000413201437.48729.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <000e01bfa587$13a239f0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Will J said: > There's no problem... just give it to me.. Will, I hate to do this to you but my off-list eMails don't seem to be reaching you. Could you check and reply to me (off-list if it works)? I don't ususlly go on list for these type of things... (Don't worry, it's a me-owe-you, not the other way around) John A. From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Thu Apr 13 15:33:00 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: CPU upgrades, pt. II Message-ID: <006c01bfa587$766287c0$6a4be4cf@vax.vantageresearch.com> Hi Pete, I can't help with your question, but you may want to post it on comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware. There are a lot of extremely knowledgeable (if not fanatical) MCA enthusiasts there (notably Peter Wendt, Louis Ohland, and Bruce Lane) and the signal to noise ratio is high. The group helped me a lot in reviving a PS/2 Model 8595 server last year. Regards, Mark "Now if only I could find some 1 by 4 static column ZIP DRAMs" Gregory -----Original Message----- From: Peter Pachla To: Classic Computer Date: Thursday, April 13, 2000 1:36 PM Subject: CPU upgrades, pt. II >Anyone come across an "XTEND MICROPRODUCTS" processor upgrade card for MCA >machines? > >I've found one inside my PS/2 Model 50, which I was previously unable to >identify as the markings on the PCBs are hidden inside the "sandwich" >IYKWIM. > >Anyway, it appears to replace the onboard '286(?) with a '486SLC (no real >clues as to clock speed, but could be 25MHz) and has a socket next to the >processor which I'm assuming is for a math co-processor? > >Would I be correct in assuming that the system will not start up if the >72-pin SIMM sockets on the upgrade board are empty....I've never gotten very >far with this machine as I don't have any 72-pin SIMMs to try in it? > > > TTFN - Pete. > >-- >Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. >Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) > >peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk >-- > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 13 15:37:39 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: CPU upgrades, pt. II In-Reply-To: <000101bfa57c$6b77bc00$9edc93c3@proteus> Message-ID: I have (and want to sell): TWO "PC Elevator 386" cards. One with box and manual, one is currently in a machine. It is an 8 bit ISA card with a 386DX processor $10 each + S/H "American PC Turbo 386" In box with manual. It is a 16 bit ISA card, but requires putting its special board into the 286 socket. $10 + S/H Exp 186. Small 8 bit ISA card with an 80186 processor. No disk, no manual, no information, no clue. $5 + S/H -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Apr 13 15:22:22 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: disposing of computer junk was Re: Computerworld Article In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000413110139.266fe6e0@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <200004122129.QAA00995@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: > I have some friends of mine that have been selling computer scrap to the >Chinese. I just heard that the Chinese government has put a stop to the >importation of all computer scrap. The word is that it may be temporary or >it may not. If the ban is permanent then I foresee major problems with the >disposal of computer scrap in this country in the very near future. Time to re-oil the bribe machine most likely. I think this happens fairly regularly, and then very soon its business as usual. OTOH I think it would be just dandy of all those containers stop going over. I have no idea why we allow tons of computers to go so cheap to a area with no respect for software property rights, or why their goverment keeps trying to stop it. Of course it is pretty hard to keep your thumb on people when they have access to the net, maybe that scares them. It should. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Apr 13 15:40:03 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: Lubing Shugart 800,801's? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000413140547.348f6428@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <000413125301.2020036b@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > I have used spray carburator cleaner for cleaning dried up grease off of >HP floppy drives. You might give it a try. Be carefull, it will dissolve >some plastics. The more I use stuff based on D-Limonene the more I like it. Very powerfull solvent, smells nice, doesn't eat my rubber gloves too badly. Common trade name is I think Citrisolve, and its made out of citrus peels. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Apr 13 15:31:10 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: Tektronix 4107 In-Reply-To: References: <20000413110437.A17707@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: >While net-searching for a Tek 4107, I ran across this site: >http://www.recycledgoods.com/ > >They want $150 for a Tek 4107...and they have loads of other stuff as >well... Looks like they don't get out much, $2,000 for a pallet of 50 486's, what a joke. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 13 15:58:38 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: disposing of computer junk was Re: Computerworld Article In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000413110139.266fe6e0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Apr 2000, Joe wrote: > it may not. If the ban is permanent then I foresee major problems with the > disposal of computer scrap in this country in the very near future. Does that mean that it will all show up on e-bay? On Thu, 13 Apr 2000, Will Jennings wrote: > There's no problem... just give it to me.. Please identify where you are located! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com [Berkeley CA, getting rid of >1000 sq ft of stuff real soon] From jpl15 at netcom.com Thu Apr 13 16:39:37 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: ATTN: Will Jennings Message-ID: My private e-mail seems not to be reaching you either... you might be getting what you're paying for from your ISP. :) Obclassiccmp: this concerns a computer rescue... it's OT. Cheers John From ss at allegro.com Thu Apr 13 17:10:13 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: Looking for: Ai Cybernetic Systems Model 1000 Speech Synthesizer. Message-ID: <200004132211.PAA24318@opus.allegro.com> Hi, I'm looking to find a particular S-100 bus speech synthesizer: Ai Cybernetic Systems Model 1000 Speech Synthesizer. (Photo, info at: http://web.inter.nl.net/hcc/davies/mvaicyb.html) I'm just sort of interested in seeing one, because a friend designed/built them. thanks, Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Apr 13 18:46:06 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: disposing of computer junk was Re: Computerworld Article In-Reply-To: <20000413201437.48729.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000413184606.26171ce4@mailhost.intellistar.net> Will, Come and get it. They have about a acre covered 5 feet deep in computers! If that's not enough I know where there are several more places like it. Joe At 02:14 PM 4/13/00 MDT, you wrote: >There's no problem... just give it to me.. > >Will J >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Apr 13 19:08:33 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: disposing of computer junk was Re: Computerworld Article In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000413110139.266fe6e0@mailhost.intellistar.net> <200004122129.QAA00995@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000413190833.2357753e@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 01:22 PM 4/13/00 -0700, Mike wrote: Of course it is pretty hard to keep your thumb on >people when they have access to the net, maybe that scares them. It should. > It's pretty hard to get on the net when you don't even have electricity or a phone line! Joe From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 13 17:36:45 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: Lubing Shugart 800,801's? Message-ID: <006001bfa59c$c7506840$7964c0d0@ajp166> First item,, I've seen lots of 800/810s with lube on the leadscrew from the factory. Two, carb cleaner is toxic and usually bad for most plastics. My cut is pull the lead screw/stepper and properly clean it and lube very lightly with good molly grease. >that is available to you, then lubing it with a LIGHT coat of (one drop for >every three drives) of WD40, then adding about 1/4 tsp of moly-disulfide, WD40 is penetrant and evaporates very quicly leaving mostly nothing. After your done cleaning any know good disk will suffice for alignment. I've even eyeballed them in. the tracks are really quite wide! Allison From whdawson at mlynk.com Thu Apr 13 19:00:37 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: Tektronix 4107 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001901bfa5a4$76b116c0$92e3dfd0@cobweb.net> -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Mike Ford -> Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 4:31 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Tektronix 4107 -> -> -> >While net-searching for a Tek 4107, I ran across this site: -> >http://www.recycledgoods.com/ -> > -> >They want $150 for a Tek 4107...and they have loads of other stuff as -> >well... -> -> Looks like they don't get out much, $2,000 for a pallet of 50 -> 486's, what a -> joke. -> My favorite is $49.99 for a box of ten 8" diskettes. I think they want to keep the stuff more than sell it. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 13 18:15:14 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: Lubing Shugart 800,801's? In-Reply-To: <009501bfa57f$32b7d000$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 13, 0 01:33:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1597 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000414/e1565fea/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 13 18:09:45 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: Interak (was Re: Research Machines Link 480Z) In-Reply-To: <000001bfa57c$69ee0ec0$9edc93c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Apr 13, 0 06:42:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1542 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000414/9d6c753a/attachment.ksh From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Thu Apr 13 19:29:23 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: disposing of computer junk was Re: Computerworld Article In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000413184606.26171ce4@mailhost.intellistar.net>; from Joe on Thu, Apr 13, 2000 at 06:46:06PM -0500 References: <20000413201437.48729.qmail@hotmail.com> <3.0.1.16.20000413184606.26171ce4@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <20000413172922.B6430@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Thu, Apr 13, 2000 at 06:46:06PM -0500, Joe wrote: > Come and get it. They have about a acre covered 5 feet deep in > computers! If that's not enough I know where there are several more places > like it. Where? -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Apr 13 19:37:09 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: A New Find References: Message-ID: <013e01bfa5a9$93576ea0$82701fd1@default> Very cool indeed !!!! GREAT FINDS, the blue color of the design center is great. Today I picked up a AIM65 in a cream colored case and it works great, also a working OSBORNE ONE with software and a Multi-tech acoustic data coupler model FM30. ----- Original Message ----- From: Doug Salot To: Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 3:09 AM Subject: Re: A New Find > On Wed, 12 Apr 2000, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > > > The other day I was given a Sym model 1 in a custom case of black > > metal with wooden sides and a built in keyboard sold by Synertek. > > Cool! OK, my turn to brag. I haven't been very actively collecting stuff > for the last year or so, but there were a few moments of weakness when I > couldn't help myself. > > A coupla weeks ago, I picked up a big load from an ex-Rockwell engineer. > I haven't gone through all of the goodies yet, but here's a glimpse. An > AIM65 in the coolest case I've ever seen (similar, but perhaps not as nice > as your SYM case): > http://www.blinkenlights.com/classiccmp/aim65/aim65a.jpg > > A Rockwell Design Center (yeah, pretend you've heard of this one): > http://www.blinkenlights.com/classiccmp/aim65/design3.jpg > > But wait, there's more! I don't have pics yet, but for your salivating > pleasure.... a 1966 DEC logic trainer, a 1955 GENIAC (my second -- I > needed one to play with and one to preserve), and (drumroll) a 1975 Sphere > manual! > > Cheers, > Doug > > From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Apr 13 19:43:19 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: Lubing Shugart 800,801's? In-Reply-To: ; from ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk on Fri, Apr 14, 2000 at 12:15:14AM +0100 References: <009501bfa57f$32b7d000$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <20000413204319.A20183@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Apr 14, 2000 at 12:15:14AM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > I can't imagine anyone being concerned about 3-1/2" drives, but with these > > I am when they're the (old) 600 rpm 3.5" drives. Those are almost > impossible to obtain (AFAIK they're not made any more) Really? I've seen double-speed drives listed by some of the diskette duplicator vendors, they're very expensive though (well, a lot of them also have duplicate head electronics for writing both sides at once). Maybe it's all old stock though... John Wilson D Bit From transit at lerctr.org Thu Apr 13 21:09:10 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: www.recycledgoods.com (was: RE: Tektronix 4107 In-Reply-To: <001901bfa5a4$76b116c0$92e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Message-ID: > > -> >While net-searching for a Tek 4107, I ran across this site: > -> >http://www.recycledgoods.com/ > -> > > -> >They want $150 for a Tek 4107...and they have loads of other stuff as > -> >well... > -> > -> Looks like they don't get out much, $2,000 for a pallet of 50 > -> 486's, what a > -> joke. > -> > > My favorite is $49.99 for a box of ten 8" diskettes. I think they want to > keep the stuff more than sell it. > Maybe they're just waiting for the right victim--er-customer, who just must have 8" disks right away, and they're willing to pay late-1970's prices for a box. . . (A side note: I got into the computer hobby/business when 5 1/4" disk drives were more commonly used than 8". I remember a box of 10 disks costing about $50. There was one computer store in town that would sell you a single disk for $5--if they weren't too busy chasing after that 30K consulting bid that never materialized. This was in early 1982, when our friendly local computer store stopped selling computers to the general public in favor of being "Business Consultants". If I recall correctly, they closed in late 82 or early 83, and the doctor's office next door expanded into their space.) From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 14 03:22:54 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: Lubing Shugart 800,801's? References: <006001bfa59c$c7506840$7964c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <003b01bfa5ea$a22187e0$0400c0a8@winbook> The purpose of using WD-40 as opposed to some stickier oil is that it does evaporate. It will make the moly-disulfide stick while you spread it around by working the mechanism, and, once in place, it sticks pretty well by itself. Though you may be able to "feel" your way around, maybe with a 'scope to check signal amplitude, I rather doubt you'll be able to eyeball in the index alignment, which I've found to be far and away the most common misalignment. The spec for that is referenced to the index pulse, and the timing is nominally 200 uSEC give or take 100. That doesn't sound bad, but since you can't see the reference, and have no calibrated reference without an alignment diskette, I doubt you can do it using "the force". If you remove the stepper/lead-screw-head-assembly unit, you have to set the azimuthal alignment as well, and that one is quite easily mucked up. Drives are not very tolerant of this one and a 1-2-degree misadjustment can cause quite a lot of error. I'd say an alignment diskette is pretty necessary. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: allisonp To: Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 4:36 PM Subject: Re: Lubing Shugart 800,801's? > First item,, > > I've seen lots of 800/810s with lube on the leadscrew from the factory. > > Two, carb cleaner is toxic and usually bad for most plastics. > > My cut is pull the lead screw/stepper and properly clean it and lube > very lightly with good molly grease. > > >that is available to you, then lubing it with a LIGHT coat of (one drop for > >every three drives) of WD40, then adding about 1/4 tsp of moly-disulfide, > > > WD40 is penetrant and evaporates very quicly leaving mostly nothing. > > After your done cleaning any know good disk will suffice for alignment. > I've even eyeballed them in. the tracks are really quite wide! > > Allison > > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 14 03:28:23 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:46 2005 Subject: Lubing Shugart 800,801's? References: Message-ID: <004101bfa5eb$66a8cf60$0400c0a8@winbook> Applied sparingly as part of the process of applying the moly-disulfide lubricant (powder) I've had good results with the WD-40, I believe for the precise reason that it "goes away" after a time. That's not good if you want it to lubricate over the long-term, but if you just want to aid in smooting out the moly-disulfide powder, I think it's all right. You're probably right about the 600 RPM drives, but I'm curious what sort of controller you use with them. Most 3-1/2" drives are hardly worth fiddling with. They're a pain to disassemble and you can buy them for less that $15 US. I hate to buy replacements for something I could fix, but I've not found it worthwhile to fiddle with the 3-1/2" drives. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 5:15 PM Subject: Re: Lubing Shugart 800,801's? > > > > I can't imagine anyone being concerned about 3-1/2" drives, but with these > > I am when they're the (old) 600 rpm 3.5" drives. Those are almost > impossible to obtain (AFAIK they're not made any more) and I seem to get > a reasonable number on my bench to repair. And the Sony service manual > certainly tells you to lubricate them. > > > old 8" drives it is risky to put greasy lubricant on the lead screw. If you > > I don't see why it's necessarily worse for 8" drives. Yes, you should use > the right lubricant (I use a special plastic grease from Electrolube) and > you need to clean/relubricate the screw every couple of years at least. > But if you do that you'll have no problems. > > > do need to lubricate the nut, then do so with some powered molybdenum > > disufide. That's what they put in grease to make it slippery, and it does > > well without the grease. If you put that on the nut and leadscrew, > > remembering that the nut is steel and the leadscrew is some form of > > polycarbonate, I'd say that doing everything to clean the leadscrew and nut > > All my drives have a metal leadscrew and a plastic nut... > > > that is available to you, then lubing it with a LIGHT coat of (one drop for > > every three drives) of WD40, then adding about 1/4 tsp of moly-disulfide, > > Argh!! WD40 is _NOT_ a lubricant. > > I have a minor-ish interest in (mechanical) clocks. And one of the things > that really gums up a clock is to spray it with WD40. The lighter oils > evaporate and leave a waxy deposit behind that sticks things solid. And > it's difficult to remove. > > Please don't use WD40 on a floppy drive. > > -tony > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Apr 14 04:22:59 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: disposing of computer junk was Re: Computerworld Article In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000413184606.26171ce4@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <20000413201437.48729.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: > Come and get it. They have about a acre covered 5 feet deep in >computers! If that's not enough I know where there are several more places >like it. Arg Arg, makes me want to buy some power tools. ;) From svs at web-server.net Fri Apr 14 06:02:19 2000 From: svs at web-server.net (Sergey Svishchev) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: Complete List Archives Available! In-Reply-To: ; from af-list@wfi-inc.com on Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 02:01:14PM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20000414150218.A21811@isabase.philol.msu.ru> On Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 02:01:14PM -0700, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > I still need to add the search capability, so I'm seriously looking for > someone with experience setting up Glimpse or something similar. Also, any > ideas for setting this up for a CD version would be appreciated. I've set up a searchable (with WebGlimpse) archive of classiccmp at http://mail-index.nice.ru/, so you could ask me :-) -- Sergey Svishchev From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Apr 14 08:44:24 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: disposing of computer junk was Re: Computerworld Article In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000413184606.26171ce4@mailhost.intellistar.net> <20000413201437.48729.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000414084424.314774ac@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 02:22 AM 4/14/00 -0700, Mike wrote: >> Come and get it. They have about a acre covered 5 feet deep in >>computers! If that's not enough I know where there are several more places >>like it. > >Arg Arg, makes me want to buy some power tools. ;) Like what? a fork lift? :-) From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Apr 14 08:47:43 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: disposing of computer junk was Re: Computerworld Article In-Reply-To: <20000413172922.B6430@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> References: <3.0.1.16.20000413184606.26171ce4@mailhost.intellistar.net> <20000413201437.48729.qmail@hotmail.com> <3.0.1.16.20000413184606.26171ce4@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000414084743.26579e7a@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 05:29 PM 4/13/00 -0700, you wrote: >On Thu, Apr 13, 2000 at 06:46:06PM -0500, Joe wrote: >> Come and get it. They have about a acre covered 5 feet deep in >> computers! If that's not enough I know where there are several more places >> like it. > >Where? In central Florida. From ghldbrd at ccp.com Fri Apr 14 17:23:08 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: disposing of computer junk was Re: Computerworld Article In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000414084424.314774ac@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: Hello Joe On 14-Apr-00, you wrote: > At 02:22 AM 4/14/00 -0700, Mike wrote: >>> Come and get it. They have about a acre covered 5 feet deep in >>> computers! If that's not enough I know where there are several more places >>> like it. >> >> Arg Arg, makes me want to buy some power tools. ;) > > Like what? a fork lift? :-) > Maybe what you need is a U-Haul truck, or two? Gary Hildebrand From dogas at leading.net Fri Apr 14 11:56:18 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: New stuff and lots of Digital help Message-ID: <001501bfa632$5d753040$ca646464@dogclient01> Hi all, I knew that hanging aound you nuts wouldn't be good for my computer collecting dementia. ( reference http://users.leading.net/~dogas/COMPOSITE.jpg ) Until recently, I've kinda resisted adding Dec equipment due to storage concerns. Until recently... So, here's my digital stuff... http://users.leading.net/~dogas/classiccmp/digital/digital.htm ...that I can use some help with... 1. I've got an 11/05 missing a KD-11B processor board #1 (M7260) 2. I have no space currently for the 11/44 and MicroVax 3600 and will entertain any 'hosting' options 3. My MicroVax II is booting into Ultrix 4.5 and I'd rather learn VMS 4. I'm need a mouse and monitor cable for a VaxStation 3100. 5. One of my Heathkit H-27 floppies is broken and I also need an os for it. Any suggentions for any of the above problems would be appreciated. In the meantime, back to the classiccmp archives. Hey, I also found two Honeywell 316 minicomputers too, check out... http://users.leading.net/~dogas/classiccmp/h316/h316.htm Cheers. - Mike: dogas@leading.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000414/5b38343d/attachment.html From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 14 13:20:31 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: New stuff and lots of Digital help In-Reply-To: <001501bfa632$5d753040$ca646464@dogclient01> Message-ID: > 2. I have no space currently for the 11/44 and MicroVax 3600 and will >entertain any 'hosting' options Are you sure that the HSC70 goes to the PDP-11/44? I thought that those were VAX only. Gotta agree you've got a slight storage problem there though. Almost as bad as mine :^( > 3. My MicroVax II is booting into Ultrix 4.5 and I'd rather learn VMS Personally I'd leave this booting Ultrix 4.5, that's a lot rarer/harder to get than VMS. Run VMS on the VS3100. > 4. I'm need a mouse and monitor cable for a VaxStation 3100. Well, I run mine with a VT420 for a head. Shoot, most of my Alpha's don't even have Monitors attached to them, and NONE of the VAXen do. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 14 13:51:00 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: Lubing Shugart 800,801's? In-Reply-To: <003b01bfa5ea$a22187e0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: > Though you may be able to "feel" your way around, maybe with a 'scope to > check signal amplitude, I rather doubt you'll be able to eyeball in the > index alignment, which I've found to be far and away the most common > misalignment. The spec for that is referenced to the index pulse, and the > timing is nominally 200 uSEC give or take 100. That doesn't sound bad, but > since you can't see the reference, and have no calibrated reference without > an alignment diskette, I doubt you can do it using "the force". > > If you remove the stepper/lead-screw-head-assembly unit, you have to set the > azimuthal alignment as well, and that one is quite easily mucked up. Drives > are not very tolerant of this one and a 1-2-degree misadjustment can cause > quite a lot of error. RE: OK. I've done it. if everything was close or correct to startwith and the only problem is lube then it's liitle trouble to put widows marks and disassemble the leadscrew clean and assemble to origional positions or very nearly so. Doing that should not affect index as that is sensor to spindle, wich is not touched. Track 00 also no need to remove. Asmuth as function of the head and also not disassembled so no new problems there. Alignment on eyeball was done on cut/try and successful enough to get by. With a scope an eye pattern setup and several disks will do better. All I've done over 20+ years were tested once operational with dysan test disk and only needed a minor tweek. Why test on live then using dysan disk...? once it's working you can be sure you not going to foul the only test disk! Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 14 13:09:27 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: Lubing Shugart 800,801's? In-Reply-To: <20000413204319.A20183@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at Apr 13, 0 08:43:19 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 928 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000414/2e03bd17/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 14 14:02:43 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: Lubing Shugart 800,801's? In-Reply-To: <004101bfa5eb$66a8cf60$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 14, 0 02:28:23 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3471 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000414/fe41d925/attachment.ksh From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Apr 14 14:56:39 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: disposing of computer junk was Re: Computerworld Article In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000414084424.314774ac@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <3.0.1.16.20000413184606.26171ce4@mailhost.intellistar.net> <20000413201437.48729.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: >>> Come and get it. They have about a acre covered 5 feet deep in >>>computers! If that's not enough I know where there are several more places >>>like it. >> >>Arg Arg, makes me want to buy some power tools. ;) > > Like what? a fork lift? :-) Yes I would very much like to play with a forklift thank you very much. ;) I was a bit farther down the food chain though, I would love a good excuse to buy a really neat electric screwdriver. I have a cheap Black and Decker, and a monster Milwuakee ScrewShooter, but I would like something nice like one of the german smaller units. The Milwaukee is what I would really use I guess, but it doesn't say please to the screws before taking them out. From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri Apr 14 16:13:36 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: PDP-10 emulation References: <3.0.1.16.20000413184606.26171ce4@mailhost.intellistar.net><20000413201437.48729.qmail@hotmail.com><3.0.1.16.20000413184606.26171ce4@mailhost.intellistar.net> <3.0.1.16.20000414084743.26579e7a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <001001bfa656$4d90d980$fd83fea9@office> I just got back in town.... and have a question that has probably been beaten to death. I have found several references to some PDP-10 emulators in the works... is there an emulator available now that emulates the PDP-10 (either KA,KI, or KL)? john From elvey at hal.com Fri Apr 14 15:11:28 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: Shugart SA-900 Pinout? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200004142011.NAA29795@civic.hal.com> Hi All Does anyone have this pinout of the connector for this? Help!!! Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 14 14:31:37 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: Lubing Shugart 800,801's? In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at Apr 14, 0 02:51:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2239 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000414/3c884edc/attachment.ksh From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Apr 14 15:17:33 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: monitor cable, dec or sun? In-Reply-To: <001501bfa632$5d753040$ca646464@dogclient01> Message-ID: I found a nice monitor cable in the lastest box of "stuff" I bought at salvage, but searching on the part number isn't getting me anyplace. The "label" on the cable reads; 530-1509-02 rev .51 495-8933 Both ends are 13W3 connectors with no logo, so I figure it must be third party. Its in pretty good shape, but one end of the jacket is just barely out of the ferrite core attached to the connector. Anybody know what it is? $5 and postage to anybody on the list. From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Fri Apr 14 16:35:44 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: monitor cable, dec or sun? In-Reply-To: References: <001501bfa632$5d753040$ca646464@dogclient01> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000414143544.00946280@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 13:17 14-04-2000 -0700, you wrote: >I found a nice monitor cable in the lastest box of "stuff" I bought at >salvage, but searching on the part number isn't getting me anyplace. The >"label" on the cable reads; > >530-1509-02 That's a Sun part number. DEC numbers look very different. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri Apr 14 16:57:59 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: Lubing Shugart 800,801's? In-Reply-To: ; from ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk on Fri, Apr 14, 2000 at 07:09:27PM +0100 References: <20000413204319.A20183@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000414175759.A24263@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Apr 14, 2000 at 07:09:27PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > OK, maybe they are still made for special applications, but you sure > can't get them in the local PC shop. And they're not exactly cheap. It's a shame too, who *wouldn't* like faster floppies? And I really don't understand why 2.88 MB floppies fizzled, they didn't even last long enough for the prices to come down. Anyway, even the current models of Sony Mavica digital cameras use double-speed 1.44 MB drives, but of course they'd never fit a normal case (even if they had the 34-pin connectors inside, which I'm sure they don't), and the cost to buy one as a replacement part is probably huge. The folks who made my floppy duplicator machine claim they roll their own double-head drives (i.e. can read/write/format both heads at the same time) by just stealing the analog board off a second FD235 and sticking it onto another drive. It would be a blast to give that a try, you'd need two FDCs (or one of the expensive ones designed for duplication) and a fancy driver but that would be fun to write, and it would be a neat way to double the speed. It's so satisfying when you can find a way to beat excellent performance out of lame hardware. John Wilson D Bit From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 14 18:21:39 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: Lubing Shugart 800,801's? In-Reply-To: <20000414175759.A24263@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at Apr 14, 0 05:57:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1459 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000415/5765b704/attachment.ksh From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Fri Apr 14 16:32:50 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: HP Apollo/9000s References: <200004062035.PAA87286@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <009601bfa66b$897c4f00$9e9793c3@proteus> Hi Sean, > You might want to take a look at http://parisc.workstations.org.... Thanks for that, someone else over in the Apollo newsgroup suggested that site too - and very interesting it is too. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Fri Apr 14 15:47:06 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: www.recycledgoods.com (was: RE: Tektronix 4107 References: Message-ID: <009501bfa66b$88bc0c40$9e9793c3@proteus> Hi Charles, >....I got into the computer hobby/business when 5 1/4" disk drives >were more commonly used than 8". I remember a box of 10 disks >costing about $50.... Quite, I remember the first box of 10 Nashua 5.25" floppies which I bought in 1983 set me back ?30 (about $45?). >....There was one computer store in town that would sell you a >single disk for $5 Yes, the same "shop" I bought the box of 10 from was charging ?5 each for them....it was a student supply shop at the Polytechnic I was at though.... Things were no better when 3.5" discs came along here though. Again, I recall paying around ?30 for a box of 10 discs when I bought my first Atari ST in summer '86. At the time the local Sony shop were charging a whopping ?8 (yes EIGHT!) each for them, dropping to ?5 each if you bought 10 in one go (for some reason they wouldn't actually sell you a box of 10!?). Needless to say they dropped their prices quite quickly. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Fri Apr 14 18:14:48 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: CPU upgrades, pt. II References: <006c01bfa587$766287c0$6a4be4cf@vax.vantageresearch.com> Message-ID: <009901bfa66b$8d378240$9e9793c3@proteus> Hi Mark, > I can't help with your question, but you may want to post it on >comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware.... Yes, that was going to be my next move....as you say they're VERY helpful over there!! TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Fri Apr 14 16:56:07 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: CPU upgrades, pt. II References: <200004132009.NAA08089@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <009801bfa66b$8ca07260$9e9793c3@proteus> Hi, > I'm going to guess that it probably doesn't want just simple >72-pin SIMMs. I believe you need True Parity 72-pin SIMMs for >this beasty. Actually, I forgot about the SIMMs in my PS/2 9595....I wonder if those would work (I've not had much success trying them in non-PS/2 machines)? BTW I wasn't aware that there were 72-pin SIMMs that didn't provide true parity. I'd always assumed this was a cost cutting phenomenon limited to 30-pin SIMMs? :-( TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Fri Apr 14 16:40:43 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z References: Message-ID: <009701bfa66b$8a34f0a0$9e9793c3@proteus> Hi Tony, >>....the Tandy stores here in Birmingham are all too often little more >>than mobile phone/radio controlled car shops.... > You do realise they've been taken over by a cellular phone sales >company (at least in England).... Actually, I wasn't aware of that. It certainly explains a lot though.... >....That's why they sold off all their components at low (really low, >not just low by Tandy standards) prices. Damn, I missed that. :-( > VCR parts are generally available from companies like Grandata... We've were using "HRS" and "Wiltsgrove" until recently. Sadly, about 18 months ago both companies decided they'd only deal with account customers, which makes dealing with them nigh on impossible now. :-( > I'm sure I've mentioned before how Sharp refused to sell me a little >plastic gear for one of their photocopiers.... Funnily enough, the parts we were after from JVC were little plastic gears/rollers too. >....This had 2 results. Firstly, I'll never buy another Sharp unit as >long as I live.... I don't blame you, I've stuck with Panasonic VCRs myself ever since. >....Secondly, I spent rather a lot of money at Myfords and ending up >being able to _make_ mechanical parts myself :-) Good idea!! TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 14 19:16:30 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: www.recycledgoods.com (was: RE: Tektronix 4107 References: <009501bfa66b$88bc0c40$9e9793c3@proteus> Message-ID: <002701bfa66f$da9a7700$0400c0a8@winbook> I visited their web site and was, if I may say, resoundingly underimpressed. The selection was modest, the prices bordering on outrageous, and the site itself badly in need of work, though that's mostly to make all the items in a given context relevant to that page. Had he had sufficient "interesting" hardware, I'd have bookmarked him. However . . . Like the dog in the barnyard ." . . sometimes ye gits chicken . . . sometimes ye gts feathuhs . . . " Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Pachla To: Sent: Friday, April 14, 2000 2:47 PM Subject: Re: www.recycledgoods.com (was: RE: Tektronix 4107 Hi Charles, >....I got into the computer hobby/business when 5 1/4" disk drives >were more commonly used than 8". I remember a box of 10 disks >costing about $50.... Quite, I remember the first box of 10 Nashua 5.25" floppies which I bought in 1983 set me back ?30 (about $45?). >....There was one computer store in town that would sell you a >single disk for $5 Yes, the same "shop" I bought the box of 10 from was charging ?5 each for them....it was a student supply shop at the Polytechnic I was at though.... Things were no better when 3.5" discs came along here though. Again, I recall paying around ?30 for a box of 10 discs when I bought my first Atari ST in summer '86. At the time the local Sony shop were charging a whopping ?8 (yes EIGHT!) each for them, dropping to ?5 each if you bought 10 in one go (for some reason they wouldn't actually sell you a box of 10!?). Needless to say they dropped their prices quite quickly. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Apr 14 20:54:54 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: Freebie docs Message-ID: <000414215454.202004c3@trailing-edge.com> Time to clear the shelves. All available for the cost of shipping - pick and choose what you can use, but hurry, because it's first-come first-served! 1. VT55 Users' Manual (xerox copy) + IDS 440 Paper Tiger Owners' Manual (copy) 2. Teletype Model 40 User's Guide (original) 3. Kennedy Model 9100 Digital Tape Transport Operation and Maintenance Manual (original) 4. ITT XTRA Personal Computer repair manual (xerox copy) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 14 20:17:45 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: CPU upgrades, pt. II Message-ID: <001a01bfa682$1a9d9f00$7964c0d0@ajp166> > > I can't help with your question, but you may want to post it on > >comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware.... > >Yes, that was going to be my next move....as you say they're VERY helpful >over there!! Heres a PS2/50z question. Mine only has 1meg, looks like 72pin simm but none I have seem work. All of them happen to be 8x32 (16chip). There is only one SIMM socket. What is the limit for ram (max)? Where can I get something bigger than 1mb? As my internal network progresses this box has value as I have a SMC 10bt NIC for it. I figure OS/2 warp V3 or Win3.1 would be a good os for it. Being 286 there are few unix based OSs with a networking that run well on it. That and its just too silly not to. Allison From transit at lerctr.org Sat Apr 15 00:00:00 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: www.recycledgoods.com (was: RE: Tektronix 4107 In-Reply-To: <009501bfa66b$88bc0c40$9e9793c3@proteus> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Apr 2000, Peter Pachla wrote: > Things were no better when 3.5" discs came along here though. Again, I > recall paying around £30 for a box of 10 discs when I bought my first Atari > ST in summer '86. I remember paying about $8 or so for a single 3.5" back then, or $20 for a pack of three. (There was this food co-op place in town that sold them for about $5 each, if I remember correctly) From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Apr 15 00:23:21 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: CPU upgrades, pt. II Message-ID: <94.30ba2fe.262956c9@aol.com> In a message dated 4/14/00 8:09:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk writes: > Hi, > > > I'm going to guess that it probably doesn't want just simple > >72-pin SIMMs. I believe you need True Parity 72-pin SIMMs for > >this beasty. > > Actually, I forgot about the SIMMs in my PS/2 9595....I wonder if those > would work (I've not had much success trying them in non-PS/2 machines)? > > BTW I wasn't aware that there were 72-pin SIMMs that didn't provide true > parity. I'd always assumed this was a cost cutting phenomenon limited to > 30-pin SIMMs? :-( 9595 uses either parity or ECC simms. ps2 memory has presence detect features as well so the PS2 can query the type of memory installed. DB Young ICQ: 29427634 view the computers of yesteryear at http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm --You can lead a whore to Vassar, but you can't make her think-- From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Apr 15 00:26:59 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: CPU upgrades, pt. II Message-ID: In a message dated 4/14/00 11:30:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, allisonp@world.std.com writes: > Heres a PS2/50z question. > > Mine only has 1meg, looks like 72pin simm but none I have seem work. > All of them happen to be 8x32 (16chip). > > There is only one SIMM socket. What is the limit for ram (max)? > Where can I get something bigger than 1mb? > > As my internal network progresses this box has value as I have a SMC 10bt > NIC for it. I figure OS/2 warp V3 or Win3.1 would be a good os for it. > Being 286 there are few unix based OSs with a networking that run well on > it. > > That and its just too silly not to. the only version of OS2 that will work on the mod50 is 1.3. any OS2 version with built in windows support requires 386 or higher. you can put in various memory cards to goto max supported mem of 16meg. plus, the hard drive has bus attachment with only 160meg size being the biggest i've seen. DB Young ICQ: 29427634 view the computers of yesteryear at http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm --You can lead a whore to Vassar, but you can't make her think-- From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Apr 15 01:02:30 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: CPU upgrades, pt. II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >> As my internal network progresses this box has value as I have a SMC 10bt >> NIC for it. I figure OS/2 warp V3 or Win3.1 would be a good os for it. >> Being 286 there are few unix based OSs with a networking that run well >>>> on it. >> >> That and its just too silly not to. >the only version of OS2 that will work on the mod50 is 1.3. any OS2 version >with built in windows support requires 386 or higher. you can put in various >memory cards to goto max supported mem of 16meg. plus, the hard drive has >bus attachment with only 160meg size being the biggest i've seen. I'm not sure, but I suspect that getting any kind of networking for OS/2 V1.3 is going to be difficult. IIRC, it doesn't come with networking support. One of these days I want to dig out the only PS/2 I've got in my collection and see if I can get the copy of V1.3 loaded. IIRC, about the only thing I had that would run under V1.3 was TE/2 and some ports of the Windows Applets! (What can I say, I had a hard enough time affording OS/2 itself, IIRC.) Warp 3 was the last version I ran, and I don't remember it having any networking software either. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From wanderer at bos.nl Sat Apr 15 04:27:14 2000 From: wanderer at bos.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: New finds References: Message-ID: <38F835F2.6F4C@bos.nl> Just collected some intresting material yesterday, a Calcomp drum plotter with pen kit and documentation, but missing the power and interface cable, VAX 750 engineering drawings, 3 KFQSA (M7769) boards, a Emulex TQ14 tape interface, which can either emulate a TSV05 or the TMSCP interface. I also found a MS810 memory board and a microfiche library with 536 fiches for VMS 4.4. All is for trade (but prefer exchange for PDP Unibus related stuff). Regarding the Calcomp plotter, does somebody have the RT-11 driver for this one, I do have the hardware interface already. Thanks, Ed -- The Wanderer | Geloof nooit een politicus! wanderer@bos.nl | Europarlementariers: zakken- http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer | vullers en dumpplaats voor Unix Lives! windows95/98 is rommel! | mislukte politici. '96 GSXR 1100R / '97 TL1000S | See http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer/gates.html for a funny pic. of Gates! From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sat Apr 15 06:43:29 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: CPU upgrades, pt. II In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Apr 14, 2000 11:02:30 pm" Message-ID: <200004151143.HAA07759@bg-tc-ppp305.monmouth.com> > Warp 3 was the last version I ran, and I don't remember it having any > networking software either. > > Zane > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | Warp3 had full TCP/IP -- just not the ethernet driver interface to it. (There's a thing somewhere -- check Hobbes -- on how to do free TCP/IP on ethernet by just downloading IBM patches for networking software and putting it all together). Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Sat Apr 15 07:26:38 2000 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: PDP-10 emulation In-Reply-To: <001001bfa656$4d90d980$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <13539611376.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Let's see here... I have a PDP-10 emulator in progress. It doesn't do anything useful yet and is loaded with bugs. I haven't made any progress on it since last year around October. You can get it from http://bony.umtec.com Ken Harrenstien and Stu Grossman hasve both had KL emulators for a long time, but neither of them is released. Bob Supnik was working on one but I don't know what ever happened to it. That's all of the ones I can think of right now... I think mine's the only one that's ever been released, but I'm not sure. ------- From Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu Sat Apr 15 10:04:27 2000 From: Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu (Marion Bates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: assorted stuff Message-ID: <29809945@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1133 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000415/29f276be/attachment.bin From paulrsm at ameritech.net Sat Apr 15 11:17:29 2000 From: paulrsm at ameritech.net (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: Nov 1976 Interface Age magazine Message-ID: <20000415162713.BLXZ10292.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> Does anyone have the November 1976 issue of Interface Age magazine? There is an article by Steve Wozniak publishing 6502 floating point routines. I have the August 1976 Dr. Dobb's Journal with the same or similar information. I want a copy of the Interface Age article so I can compare the two. From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Apr 15 10:39:46 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: CPU upgrades, pt. II Message-ID: <003f01bfa6f0$f3965220$7964c0d0@ajp166> >>> As my internal network progresses this box has value as I have a SMC 10bt >>> NIC for it. I figure OS/2 warp V3 or Win3.1 would be a good os for it. >>> Being 286 there are few unix based OSs with a networking that run well >>>>> on it. >>the only version of OS2 that will work on the mod50 is 1.3. any OS2 version >>with built in windows support requires 386 or higher. you can put in various I checked, V3 wants 386 or higher.... ok, I have a box for that. I do have win 3.0 and 3.1 with 286 support in hand those I have lanman and windows networking support. FYI: the NT4 Server disks have client drivers and networking support for DOS, WIN3.x, OS/2 and w9x. Lanman and TCP/ip. >>memory cards to goto max supported mem of 16meg. plus, the hard drive has >>bus attachment with only 160meg size being the biggest i've seen. Disk is not problem as I have a 120 mb drive, enough for this use. >I'm not sure, but I suspect that getting any kind of networking for >OS/2 V1.3 is going to be difficult. IIRC, it doesn't come with networking No plan to run OS/2-v1.3 don't have it either. >Warp 3 was the last version I ran, and I don't remember it having any >networking software either. It does if you have the bonus pak. I also have the NT4 clients kit for OS/2 V3. I'd still like to bump it up to 2MB if possible. Allison From dogas at leading.net Sat Apr 15 11:51:13 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: New stuff and lots of Digital help Message-ID: <003801bfa6fa$d15b0020$ca646464@dogclient01> >> 4. I'm need a mouse and monitor cable for a VaxStation 3100. > >Well, I run mine with a VT420 for a head. Shoot, most of my Alpha's don't >even have Monitors attached to them, and NONE of the VAXen do. > > Zane Zane, thanks for the info and suggestions. You talked me into leaving the uVax2 alone with its Ultrix... And I'm not sure about the HSC-70, but it came in as part of the 11/44 when it was scrapped. So, does anyone have any extra Dec Modified Modular Jacks (MMJ's) for the console port or the odd SCSI cables for the VaxStation 3100 or know where they can be found? Regards - Mike: dogas@leading.net From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 15 13:14:33 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z In-Reply-To: <009701bfa66b$8a34f0a0$9e9793c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Apr 14, 0 10:40:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1373 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000415/b73b60c7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 15 13:18:44 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: www.recycledgoods.com (was: RE: Tektronix 4107 In-Reply-To: <009501bfa66b$88bc0c40$9e9793c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Apr 14, 0 09:47:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 989 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000415/f6daf304/attachment.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Apr 15 14:57:03 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: More freebie classic documentation Message-ID: <000415155703.2020054e@trailing-edge.com> The following are available for shipping cost from Bethesda MD 20817: 1. "New Word" paperback, describing the CP/M screen-oriented editor. 2. "Spellguard" CP/M Spellchecker docs in original ISA 3-Ring binder. 3. VT55 Users' Manual (xerox copy) 4. IDS 440 Paper Tiger Owners' Manual (xerox copy) 5. Teletype 40 Owner's Manual (original booklet) 6. Tandon TM252 (10-Meg MFM hard drive) OEM operating and service manual, original in Tandon binder. 7. Tandon TM501, TM502, TM503 (5.25" FH MFM hard drives) OEM operating and service manual, original in Tandon binder. 8. PRIAM OEM Service manuals: 3450, 7050 8" Winchester Disk drives 9. PRIAM OEM Servie manuals: 14" Winchester Drives 10. PRIAM SMART and SMART-E interface product specification. 11. Seagate ST506 MicroWinchester OEM Manual, Preliminary, 1-Apr-1981. First come, first served. Be sure to supply your mailing address and which items you want, and I'll let you know the shipping costs. Generally any two or three items above can be sent to the lower 48 via USPS priority mail for $3.20. Tim. (shoppa@trailing-edge.com) From mrdos at swbell.net Fri Apr 14 15:27:18 2000 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: System/38 Question Message-ID: <001001bfa64f$d551d380$9d703ed8@compaq> Does anyone know the approximate weight of an IBM System/38? I trying to ship one, and I need to know how much it weighs. Thanks, Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000414/0b54cf08/attachment.html From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat Apr 15 16:06:45 2000 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: System/38 Question References: <001001bfa64f$d551d380$9d703ed8@compaq> Message-ID: <38F8D9E4.9FB94BDA@bigfoot.com> I know the MIS books have it in the general info but I don't have the books handy at present. It's heavy regardless. Owen Robertson wrote: > Does anyone know the approximate weight of an IBM System/38? I trying > to ship one, and I need to know how much it weighs. Thanks,Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000415/92af554f/attachment.html From mrdos at swbell.net Fri Apr 14 16:38:58 2000 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: System/38 Question Message-ID: <001001bfa659$d8a73480$5d703ed8@compaq> Someone told me they think (just from looking at it) that it weighs 1700 pounds. Do you think that's possible? I'm trying to find out how much shipping is going to cost before I ship it. If you ever find out how much it weighs, I would like to know. Thanks, Owen -----Original Message----- From: Russ Blakeman To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, April 15, 2000 4:31 PM Subject: Re: System/38 Question I know the MIS books have it in the general info but I don't have the books handy at present. It's heavy regardless. Owen Robertson wrote: Does anyone know the approximate weight of an IBM System/38? I trying to ship one, and I need to know how much it weighs. Thanks,Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000414/c9f681aa/attachment.html From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat Apr 15 17:14:22 2000 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: System/38 Question References: <001001bfa659$d8a73480$5d703ed8@compaq> Message-ID: <38F8E9BE.DF03FD7@bigfoot.com> A cabinet sized S/34 might but I think that's a little heavy for a 38. Maybe 700 at most but of course I'm not sure what all you have with it. I may just be mentally zoned right now too but the last 38 I had to remove and bring to the shop was maybe 350. Owen Robertson wrote: > Someone told me they think (just from looking at it) that it weighs > 1700 pounds. Do you think that's possible? I'm trying to find out how > much shipping is going to cost before I ship it. If you ever find out > how much it weighs, I would like to know. Thanks,Owen > > -----Original Message----- > From: Russ Blakeman > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Saturday, April 15, 2000 4:31 PM > Subject: Re: System/38 Question > I know the MIS books have it in the general info but I > don't have the books handy at present. It's heavy > regardless. > > Owen Robertson wrote: > > > Does anyone know the approximate weight of an IBM > > System/38? I trying to ship one, and I need to know how > > much it weighs. Thanks,Owen > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000415/7b6e0658/attachment.html From mbg at world.std.com Sat Apr 15 17:12:29 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:47 2005 Subject: PDP-10 emulation Message-ID: <200004152212.SAA22930@world.std.com> >I have a PDP-10 emulator in progress. It doesn't do anything useful yet >and is loaded with bugs. I haven't made any progress on it since last >year around October. You can get it from http://bony.umtec.com >Ken Harrenstien and Stu Grossman hasve both had KL emulators for a long >time, but neither of them is released. >Bob Supnik was working on one but I don't know what ever happened to it. >That's all of the ones I can think of right now... I think mine's the >only one that's ever been released, but I'm not sure. There's mine... I haven't had the time to do anything with it recently, but I have a fair number of instructions working. PI doesn't work yet, and the only devices which sortof work are the CTY, CLK, PTR and PTP. I've got some -10 code which it executes built into the program so I can test instruction speed... about 500k eips (emulated instructions per second) on a 6x86... I'm basing mine on Bob Supnik's simulation control package, which is really nice in itself. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Apr 15 18:16:47 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: New Toy, Yikes it wants batteries In-Reply-To: <38F8E9BE.DF03FD7@bigfoot.com> References: <001001bfa659$d8a73480$5d703ed8@compaq> Message-ID: Today was a good day at the hamfest in Pomona, Cal. Unfortunately I should have written my name on my butt, cause that was the only part of me sticking up for the first hour or so. 6 boxes full of cards later I had five totally lame cards in my hand, and ended up putting all but one back. Just for yucks I started poking in some boxes of cables and found just what I needed. I bought 124 mac video cables, split between three rare types Radius Pivot, DB15 to 13W3, and 13W3 to 13W3. New Toy I found a TRS 80 pocket computer in the original box with software manual and cassette interface. Cute little monster, but it wants to eat Type 675 batteries at a rate of 4/300 hours. It warns against using a type 675E, but Radio Shack carried neither a plain 675 or a 675E, just a "replacement" for a whole slew (hee hee) of 675 this or thats called a RS675. Any ideas on a common modern equivalent battery? I bought one feeding of 4, and the thing comes right up, but regular feeding needs to be on a bargain brand of battery chow. From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net Sat Apr 15 18:35:48 2000 From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (Sue & Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: I'm a proud daddy Message-ID: <000d01bfa733$54c79580$0174fea9@francois> Today I found an Androbot Topo and he's standing right here next to me. Now what? I am now accepting any pointers, tidbits, or otherwise worthy information about this cute little addition to our family. I already searched the usual channels. Thanks to all Francois From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Apr 15 19:03:29 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: New Toy, Yikes it wants batteries References: <001001bfa659$d8a73480$5d703ed8@compaq> Message-ID: <005a01bfa737$33133580$5e731fd1@default> I too had a good day at the hamfest here in Blaine, MN today. I got several good manuals and testing software, several hard to find cables and the following items. - a Data Myte FAN handheld unit with no adapter to power it up - a HP pen unit made by BKS for use wit HP2392A HP150A & HP150B - Tektronix 8086/8087 Prototype Control Probe with manuals and three 8" floppy diskettes - an old Zenith notebook that works but the screen is cracked - a recent Compaq server unit All-in-All it was a pretty good day for the collection. John ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ford To: Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2000 6:16 PM Subject: New Toy, Yikes it wants batteries > Today was a good day at the hamfest in Pomona, Cal. Unfortunately I should > have written my name on my butt, cause that was the only part of me > sticking up for the first hour or so. 6 boxes full of cards later I had > five totally lame cards in my hand, and ended up putting all but one back. > Just for yucks I started poking in some boxes of cables and found just what > I needed. I bought 124 mac video cables, split between three rare types > Radius Pivot, DB15 to 13W3, and 13W3 to 13W3. > > New Toy > I found a TRS 80 pocket computer in the original box with software manual > and cassette interface. Cute little monster, but it wants to eat Type 675 > batteries at a rate of 4/300 hours. It warns against using a type 675E, but > Radio Shack carried neither a plain 675 or a 675E, just a "replacement" for > a whole slew (hee hee) of 675 this or thats called a RS675. Any ideas on a > common modern equivalent battery? I bought one feeding of 4, and the thing > comes right up, but regular feeding needs to be on a bargain brand of > battery chow. > > > From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Apr 15 19:18:00 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: I'm a proud daddy References: <000d01bfa733$54c79580$0174fea9@francois> Message-ID: <006201bfa739$3a90b600$5e731fd1@default> There are several site for the Topo including a Homepage at www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/8970. I did a search on yahoo and came up with 13 sites. Try your search again or I could e-mail you the list I got from mine. John ----- Original Message ----- From: Sue & Francois To: Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2000 6:35 PM Subject: I'm a proud daddy > Today I found an Androbot Topo and he's standing right here next to me. > Now what? > I am now accepting any pointers, tidbits, or otherwise worthy information > about this cute little addition to our family. > I already searched the usual channels. > Thanks to all > Francois > > > From generic3 at home.com Sat Apr 15 19:33:42 2000 From: generic3 at home.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: System/38 Question - cant be answered In-Reply-To: <38F8E9BE.DF03FD7@bigfoot.com> References: <001001bfa659$d8a73480$5d703ed8@compaq> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000415203122.009df180@popmail.voicenet.com> At 05:14 PM 4/15/00 -0500, you wrote: >A cabinet sized S/34 might but I think that's a little heavy for a 38. >Maybe 700 at most but of course I'm not sure what all you have with it. I >may just be mentally zoned right now too but the last 38 I had to remove >and bring to the shop was maybe 350. The System 38 comes in a wide range of sizes and powers. The question is just like saying how much does a car weigh but even more than that. From one end of the System 38 to the other the power and weight range can vary by as much as 25 to 1. Your question really can't be answered generically. ------------------------------------------------------ On-Line Computer & Video Game Garage Sale http://www.voicenet.com/~generic gene@ehrich.com generic3@home.com Gene Ehrich From jpero at cgocable.net Sat Apr 15 19:45:27 2000 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: CPU upgrades, pt. II In-Reply-To: <001a01bfa682$1a9d9f00$7964c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <38F8D4E7.23430.1BAC859@localhost> Hi! > Heres a PS2/50z question. > > Mine only has 1meg, looks like 72pin simm but none I have seem work. > All of them happen to be 8x32 (16chip). > > There is only one SIMM socket. What is the limit for ram (max)? > Where can I get something bigger than 1mb? All PS/2's insists on parity only of specific sizes and speeds. Find 512K x 36 faster than 80ns and check the detectation pins is set for 2MB, 85ns otherwise solder time, peter's, and ohlandl's websites has the info you need to check against. 2MB max on planar, 16MB total using 16bit MCA memory expansion card or two. > > As my internal network progresses this box has value as I have a SMC 10bt > NIC for it. I figure OS/2 warp V3 or Win3.1 would be a good os for it. > Being 286 there are few unix based OSs with a networking that run well on > it. Look for a 486SLC2 upgrade module by IBM (best) to plug into over the 286 socket. Honestly, I rather go for Model 70-Axx or 80-Axx (tower), 90 if one slaps on 3.11 or OS/2 3.x. I have got 70-Axx and 90, perfect boxes for that OSes applications yours just described. > Allison Wizard From jpero at cgocable.net Sat Apr 15 19:49:15 2000 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: CPU upgrades, pt. II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <38F8D5CB.4225.1BE43AE@localhost> On 15 Apr 2000, at 1:26, SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/14/00 11:30:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > allisonp@world.std.com writes: > > > Heres a PS2/50z question. > > > > Mine only has 1meg, looks like 72pin simm but none I have seem work. > > All of them happen to be 8x32 (16chip). > > > > There is only one SIMM socket. What is the limit for ram (max)? > > Where can I get something bigger than 1mb? > > > > As my internal network progresses this box has value as I have a SMC 10bt > > NIC for it. I figure OS/2 warp V3 or Win3.1 would be a good os for it. > > Being 286 there are few unix based OSs with a networking that run well on > > it. > > > > That and its just too silly not to. > the only version of OS2 that will work on the mod50 is 1.3. any OS2 version > with built in windows support requires 386 or higher. you can put in various > memory cards to goto max supported mem of 16meg. plus, the hard drive has bus > attachment with only 160meg size being the biggest i've seen. Nope, SCSI to the rescue. I use MCS 700 future domain in my 70 bought used from C.R. when I was in US visiting my friend. Should work in your 50z but needs 386 level to work according to DB Young and shove in more ram while you are at it. > > DB Young ICQ: 29427634 Wizard From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Apr 15 20:49:06 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: I'm a proud daddy In-Reply-To: <000d01bfa733$54c79580$0174fea9@francois> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000415184829.00c20c80@208.226.86.10> This must be the day for it, I went out touring the "all Sunnyvale Garage sale" and the first thing I picked up was a Hero Jr w/ Manual. Amazing --Chuck From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Apr 15 20:23:00 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: CPU upgrades, pt. II Message-ID: <002f01bfa742$65447a90$7664c0d0@ajp166> Nope, SCSI to the rescue. I use MCS 700 future domain in my 70 bought used from C.R. when I was in US visiting my friend. Actually a cheaper way... Parallel port adaptor. It's how I run Win3.1 on that one without loading the disk that on it (currently only dos on it). Should work in your 50z but needs 386 level to work according to DB Young and shove in more ram while you are at it. True. The problem with that machine is common to most 286s, there's enough perfomance to make use of it but, not enough ram, disk and it's not 386. So in the end I can easily run dos/lanman/IP with windows 3.1 but, only dos apps will fit in the available ram. I have an INboard386 PC in a leading edge. Same problem more or less. I do have a 386/16 with that and 1meg of ram but 4-5mb is needed to run windows apps of any value. I plan to try minix in that beast as it would leave enough uesful ram for a IP stack. Allison From rcini at msn.com Sat Apr 15 20:08:21 2000 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: Needed--Mac 400k drive Message-ID: Hello, all: I just found out that one of my external 400k floppy drives is shot. Anyone got a spare that they can, well, spare? It doesn't have to be external, as I can re-use the existing case. Thanks. Rich [ Rich Cini [ ClubWin!/CW1 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ <================ reply separator =================> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2060 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000415/2e39d2fe/winmail.bin From rcini at msn.com Sat Apr 15 20:08:26 2000 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: Mac/gs<==> PC Message-ID: Hello, all: I'm looking to transfer some files from my PC to my //gs. I could do it wit h a null-modem cable (for which I need the 8-pin DIN to DE9 pinout). I could also do it with a Superdrive connected to the //gs. Anyone have any experien ce with an external Superdrive? What do I need on the gs side? I have a ROM0 3 gs with System 6.0.8. Rich [ Rich Cini [ ClubWin!/CW1 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ <================ reply separator =================> From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Apr 15 21:59:14 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: Mac/gs<==> PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I'm looking to transfer some files from my PC to my //gs. I could >do it wit >h a null-modem cable (for which I need the 8-pin DIN to DE9 pinout). I could >also do it with a Superdrive connected to the //gs. Anyone have any experien >ce with an external Superdrive? What do I need on the gs side? I have a ROM0 >3 gs with System 6.0.8. Do you happen to have a 68k Mac with a 1.44Mb floppy? If so why not simply put the files on a DOS floppy, copy them to the Mac, and then copy them onto a ProDOS floppy? Sure it requires four steps, but it's going to be the easiest probably (if you've got the Mac). Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sat Apr 15 22:02:01 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re: Mac/gs<=3D=3D> PC?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0003655821609a84_mailit@calico.litterbox.com> You have a SCSI superdrive. I know there are IDE cards for the GS, but I know NOTHING about them. I'd expect them to perform the same tho. I'm not sure how you're going to write to the superdisk in a fashion that the GS can read. You *might* be able to format the superdisk on your PC as an ISO9660 or a MAC CD, and then put the disk in the superdrive on the GS before you power it up, so it thinks it has a CDROM mounted. Might. CDROM support is a little dicy on GSOS, and whether the file system driver will deal with a non-standard disk size I have no idea. That's what I'd try first though. If you have a CDROM burner, I'd be far more inclined to try burning a CD and reading THAT on the GS, but I never tried that either. >Hello, all: > I'm looking to transfer some files from my PC to my //gs. I could do it >wit >h a null-modem cable (for which I need the 8-pin DIN to DE9 pinout). I could >also do it with a Superdrive connected to the //gs. Anyone have any experien >ce with an external Superdrive? What do I need on the gs side? I have a ROM0 >3 gs with System 6.0.8. >Rich >[ Rich Cini >[ ClubWin!/CW1 >[ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking >[ Collector of "classic" computers >[ ><================ reply separator =================> -- -Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS 4.5.2 Powered! This message sent with BeatWare MailIt 2.0.4 ---------------------------------------------------------------- From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Apr 15 21:06:23 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: System/38 Question In-Reply-To: <001001bfa64f$d551d380$9d703ed8@compaq> (message from Owen Robertson on Fri, 14 Apr 2000 15:27:18 -0500) References: <001001bfa64f$d551d380$9d703ed8@compaq> Message-ID: <20000416020623.13633.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Does anyone know the approximate weight of an IBM System/38? I trying to = > ship one, and I need to know how much it weighs. Depends a whole lot on which model it is, and how it's configured. That's a little like asking "how long is a piece of string". Unless it's one of the late minitower-pc sized machines, it's going to weigh hundreds of pounds. From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Apr 15 21:37:44 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: 600 RPM 3.5 inch drives (was Re: Lubing Shugart 800,801's?) In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <20000416023744.14777.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > I've seen these 600rpm drives used by both HP (9114A 9114B, 9121, 9122, > 9123, 9133, etc) and Apricot. I have an HP "Pompard" prototype disk drive, made in spring of 1984. It's a dual 3.5 inch drive in a 9121-like case, but with an HP-IL interface rather than HP-IB. It's not battery powered, but I believe that the HP 9114A was derived from this design. There are jumpers in the unit for one drive or two, and for single- or dual-head drives. But it's not apparently which way the jumper setting for the heads is, and I can't see enough through the flap to tell if there are two heads by visual inspection. The drives are Sony model OA-D32W. Does anyone know from that model number whether they are single- or dual-head? Thanks! Eric From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Apr 15 22:39:51 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: Mac/gs<==> PC In-Reply-To: <0003655821609a84_mailit@calico.litterbox.com> References: Message-ID: Um, isn't the Superdrive the 3.5" HD floppy that was available for the GS? Zane >You have a SCSI superdrive. I know there are IDE cards for the GS, but I >know NOTHING about them. I'd expect them to perform the same tho. > >I'm not sure how you're going to write to the superdisk in a fashion that the >GS can read. You *might* be able to format the superdisk on your PC >as an ISO9660 or a MAC CD, and then put the disk in the superdrive on the >GS before you power it up, so it thinks it has a CDROM mounted. Might. >CDROM support is a little dicy on GSOS, and whether the file system driver >will deal with a non-standard disk size I have no idea. That's what I'd >try first though. > >If you have a CDROM burner, I'd be far more inclined to try burning a CD >and reading THAT on the GS, but I never tried that either. | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Apr 15 21:54:48 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: Mac/gs<==> PC In-Reply-To: (healyzh@aracnet.com) References: Message-ID: <20000416025448.15359.qmail@brouhaha.com> Zane wrote: > Um, isn't the Superdrive the 3.5" HD floppy that was available for the GS? The Superdrive, also known as the FDHD drive, is an Apple 3.5 inch drive that supports Apple GCR disk formats (400K single-sided, 800K double-sided) and IBM formats (720K, 1440K). It was standard as the internal drive on all of the later 68K-based Macintoshes. The Macintosh 128, 512, and Plus can not use it. The Macintosh II and Macintosh SE can be upgraded to support it, by installing the SWIM chip in place of the original IWM chip. An external Superdrive can be used on some Macintoshes, such as the IIci. The external Superdrive will *NOT* work with any model of Apple ][ (including the //gs) unless you use the Apple Superdrive interface card or a third-party equivalent. In particular, it will *NOT* work with the built-in controllers of the Apple //gs, //c, or //c+. (The documentation claims that it won't work at all. I suspect that it might work in GCR mode, but I haven't tried it.) From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Apr 15 21:41:04 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: info needed Message-ID: <003701bfa74f$b2e6ac20$7664c0d0@ajp166> I'm looking for schematic on a heath 10D-203-31, 5mhz trigged sweep scope. I'm chasing a vertical amp problem and schematics would help identify the heath house numbered transistors. Allison From foxnhare at jps.net Sat Apr 15 23:01:56 2000 From: foxnhare at jps.net (Larry Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: www.recycledgoods.com References: <200004160005.TAA33677@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <38F93B31.8FAA1B12@jps.net> > Subject: Re: www.recycledgoods.com (was: RE: Tektronix 4107 > > From: Peter Pachla > Subject: Re: www.recycledgoods.com (was: RE: Tektronix 4107 > > > Hi Charles, > > >....I got into the computer hobby/business when 5 1/4" disk drives > >were more commonly used than 8". I remember a box of 10 disks > >costing about $50.... > > Quite, I remember the first box of 10 Nashua 5.25" floppies which I bought > in 1983 set me back ?30 (about $45?). Yep, I was lucky enough to be able to use the disk drives (I thnk there were total of three units) in our school iun 1981/2, back then the drives (Commodore 4040s), cost about $1200 ea. Most everyone else were at the mercy of sometimes flakey tape decks. > >....There was one computer store in town that would sell you a > >single disk for $5 The school did that for a while after the Apples came in. Ever see the movie Sixteen Candles, the nerds in the movie make a bet for a box of disks and quote a $50 price, that was for 5.25" disks... Now things are going back up for 5.25" (DS/DD) disks as the sources are starting to dry up, I load up on boxes of them when the dollarish stores get shipments of them. Hint, you can spot a 5.25" diskette because it usually has a hub ring, this was partly so apple Disk ][ drives can grip it, there was at time hub ring kits for that purpose as well as the keep the old drives from bending the diskette's hole. HD disks generally do not. -- 01000011 01001111 01001101 01001101 01001111 01000100 01001111 01010010 01000101 Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (209) 754-1363 300-2400 bps Commodore 8-bit page at: http://www.jps.net/foxnhare/commodore.html SiliCon 6 Gaming/Gathering-04/01/2000 - http://www.jps.net/foxnhare/silicon.html 01000011 01001111 01001101 01010000 01010101 01010100 01000101 01010010 01010011 From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net Sat Apr 15 23:47:56 2000 From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (Sue & Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: I'm a proud daddy References: <000d01bfa733$54c79580$0174fea9@francois> <006201bfa739$3a90b600$5e731fd1@default> Message-ID: <000f01bfa75e$f0530400$0174fea9@francois> Yep been there I found a bunch of sites but they do not offer any more than the basic item description. I guess I need all kind of information; it says "no user serviceable parts inside" on the skin so I guess a hardware or service manual may be too much to ask but I would like to find some info as to what it was capable of as new in term of cpu power, interfacing capabilities etc... The unit I got has apparently been stripped from it's guts (or most of them) it still has the speech synthesis module since I heard it on friday eve. But I didn't get the bateries so I can't try it out. (my 3 year old son is asking :"when can we plug it in?":( ) The unit also has a (secial?) plate in "ooks like gold to me"(TM) on the front with Nolan Bushnell's signature engraved and the Androbot logo/name and what looks a like a series number (18) Big picture at: ftp://fauradon:hsd123@people.mn.mediaone.net/Pictures/topobust1.jpg (158K) and at: ftp://fauradon:hsd123@people.mn.mediaone.net/Pictures/topofull1.jpg (96K) Any ways I was hoppping for some technical insight. what kind of controller are used for it, any cool application, any personal experience. Thanks Francois ----- Original Message ----- From: John R. Keys Jr. To: Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2000 7:18 PM Subject: Re: I'm a proud daddy > There are several site for the Topo including a Homepage at > www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/8970. I did a search on yahoo and > came up with 13 sites. Try your search again or I could e-mail you the list > I got from mine. John > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Sue & Francois > To: > Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2000 6:35 PM > Subject: I'm a proud daddy > > > > Today I found an Androbot Topo and he's standing right here next to me. > > Now what? > > I am now accepting any pointers, tidbits, or otherwise worthy information > > about this cute little addition to our family. > > I already searched the usual channels. > > Thanks to all > > Francois > > > > > > > From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sat Apr 15 23:42:13 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: Mac/gs<==> PC In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Apr 15, 2000 08:39:51 PM Message-ID: <200004160442.WAA22312@calico.litterbox.com> Oh foo. I think you're right. I was thinking the current "superdrive" which is a (usually) USB floppy drive with a 100mb disk as well as 1.44 > > Um, isn't the Superdrive the 3.5" HD floppy that was available for the GS? > > Zane > > > >You have a SCSI superdrive. I know there are IDE cards for the GS, but I > >know NOTHING about them. I'd expect them to perform the same tho. > > > >I'm not sure how you're going to write to the superdisk in a fashion that the > >GS can read. You *might* be able to format the superdisk on your PC > >as an ISO9660 or a MAC CD, and then put the disk in the superdrive on the > >GS before you power it up, so it thinks it has a CDROM mounted. Might. > >CDROM support is a little dicy on GSOS, and whether the file system driver > >will deal with a non-standard disk size I have no idea. That's what I'd > >try first though. > > > >If you have a CDROM burner, I'd be far more inclined to try burning a CD > >and reading THAT on the GS, but I never tried that either. > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net Sat Apr 15 23:55:14 2000 From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (Sue & Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: I'm a proud daddy References: <4.3.1.2.20000415184829.00c20c80@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <032901bfa75f$f5830780$0174fea9@francois> Not fair this is supposed to be MY hapy day. ;) Francois ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck McManis To: Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2000 8:49 PM Subject: Re: I'm a proud daddy > This must be the day for it, I went out touring the "all Sunnyvale Garage > sale" and the first thing I picked up was a Hero Jr w/ Manual. Amazing > --Chuck > From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Sun Apr 16 00:46:40 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: I'm a proud daddy Message-ID: <002601bfa767$2442f060$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: Sue & Francois To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, April 15, 2000 11:03 PM Subject: Re: I'm a proud daddy >Big picture at: >ftp://fauradon:hsd123@people.mn.mediaone.net/Pictures/topobust1.jpg (158K) >and at: >ftp://fauradon:hsd123@people.mn.mediaone.net/Pictures/topofull1.jpg (96K) > >Any ways I was hoppping for some technical insight. what kind of controller >are used for it, any cool application, any personal experience. >Thanks >Francois And I can see from the second picture that you have (very sensibly) assigned it to guard your most precious possession: the wine cellar. Cheers, Mark. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Apr 16 02:17:49 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: HP-IB impact line printer In-Reply-To: References: <0003655821609a84_mailit@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: The other day at a salvage yard I saw a fairly nice looking HP-IB printer. An impact printer about 8x16x24 inches and very husky looking, sorry I know, next time write down the model number. Had some tractor feed regular size computer paper still in it, and looked part of some working system that was pulled out. Its located in SoCal, and my guess is weighs close to 35 lbs, no guess on price, but nobody else seems to be very interested in it due to the HP-IB as the only interface. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Apr 16 02:42:38 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: assorted stuff In-Reply-To: <29809945@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Message-ID: >I rescued a couple random items from a computer junkyard. If anyone's >interested, email me privately and you can have 'em for the cost of >shipping. Or for trade for an Apple ][e card for an older Mac -- I have >the disk drive, You need a card, which was made for the LC series (fits in most with that type PDS slot), and the Y cable for floppy and mouse. I have them, but I am a bit mercenary for some tastes selling them at about market prices ($20 for card and cable, plus shipping). From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Apr 16 02:38:23 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: Needed--Mac 400k drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I just found out that one of my external 400k floppy drives is shot. >Anyone got a spare that they can, well, spare? It doesn't have to be >external, as I can re-use the existing case. What is "shot", most old drives have some trouble with the grease getting gummy on the ejection drive gears, so even a replacement might need a clean and relube. Most likely I have some drives, but knowing for sure would mean looking in boxes etc. Email me directly if you are stuck for one. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Apr 16 02:34:02 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: Mac/gs<==> PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I'm looking to transfer some files from my PC to my //gs. I could >do it wit >h a null-modem cable (for which I need the 8-pin DIN to DE9 pinout). I could >also do it with a Superdrive connected to the //gs. Anyone have any experien >ce with an external Superdrive? What do I need on the gs side? I have a ROM0 >3 gs with System 6.0.8. Stick with a null modem cable, the various a2 emulation pages generally have all the details. Of course, "I" have macs that I could network to the IIgs easily, and I also have SCSI cards for the Apple II series, but haven't tried them yet. From foxvideo at wincom.net Sun Apr 16 06:28:07 2000 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: info needed In-Reply-To: <003701bfa74f$b2e6ac20$7664c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000416072807.007b12f0@mail.wincom.net> At 10:41 PM 4/15/2000 -0400, you wrote: >I'm looking for schematic on a heath 10D-203-31, 5mhz trigged sweep scope. > >I'm chasing a vertical amp problem and schematics would help identify the >heath house numbered transistors. > >Allison > I have info on the 10-105 dual beam Heathkit scope, some of the transistor info might be relevant. Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo Check out "The Old Walkerville Virtual Museum" at http://www.skyboom.com/foxvideo --works best with I.E.5 From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 16 09:18:51 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE Message-ID: <001d01bfa7ae$b172c4a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Recently, as part of my effort on an S-100 "hard-card" using a 2-1/2 inch ide drive, I've been revisiting the 1994 standard for the ATA interface. There's a not-too-detailed mention of an 8-bit mode which is set up using a bit in register. This feature was apparently obsoleted as of 1996's standard. Have any of you folks had contact with this feature as part of one or more of the standards? I know the original version of IDE as implemented on Compaq drives was 8-bits wide. However, once the ATA approach to HD interfacing became popular the 16-bit version won out. Has anyone on this list dealt directly (not through the BIOS) with 8-bit IDE drives of 2-1/2" size? ... Any size at all? Dick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000416/e81c611e/attachment.html From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Apr 16 08:09:21 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: info needed Message-ID: <008201bfa7a8$bdf5a540$7664c0d0@ajp166> > I have info on the 10-105 dual beam Heathkit scope, some of the transistor >info might be relevant. I have that one. Not similar enough. What I'm chasing is a huge asymetry in the amp and so far no bad transistors. Back when I had the cousin to this one and had a similar problem. I also need to see the layout so I can find why one half the amp is not reacting to it's mirror. Allison From paulrsm at ameritech.net Sun Apr 16 09:41:14 2000 From: paulrsm at ameritech.net (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: Mac/gs<==> PC Message-ID: <20000416144625.EMCI10292.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> Start with a Macintosh modem cable that has the round connector on one end and a DB25 connector on the other. There is also a Macintosh program called MacLink which has a Mac to PC cable that you may be able to use. My cable is the nifty cable that comes with CrossWorks. The PC end has both DB25 and DB9 connectors, while the Apple II end has DB25 (Super Serial Card), small round (IIgs, IIc+), and large round (IIc, Laser 128) connectors. I have used this cable between a PC and a Mac LC II as well. Paul R. Santa-Maria Ann Arbor, Michigan USA paulrsm@ameritech.net ---------- > From: Richard A. Cini, Jr. > To: ClassCompList > Subject: Mac/gs<==> PC > Date: Saturday, April 15, 2000 09:08 PM > > I'm looking to transfer some files from my PC to my //gs. I could do it wit > h a null-modem cable (for which I need the 8-pin DIN to DE9 pinout). I could > also do it with a Superdrive connected to the //gs. Anyone have any experien > ce with an external Superdrive? What do I need on the gs side? I have a ROM0 > 3 gs with System 6.0.8. From wanderer at bos.nl Sun Apr 16 11:58:08 2000 From: wanderer at bos.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: TCP/IP on 11/35 References: Message-ID: <38F9F120.6546@bos.nl> Well, it finally worked out, I now have TCP/IP under RT-11 5.04 running on my 11/35. After some intermittend problem with the powersupply, I managed to get it all running using the inital programs from the standalone kit which Jerome Fine (THANK YOU!) was so kindly to put on a floppy for me. There is still some minor tweaking to do, but it works. Next step is to download the other data and configure the environment for the other monitors and do the same for the other 3 machines. Ed -- The Wanderer | Geloof nooit een politicus! wanderer@bos.nl | Europarlementariers: zakken- http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer | vullers en dumpplaats voor Unix Lives! windows95/98 is rommel! | mislukte politici. '96 GSXR 1100R / '97 TL1000S | See http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer/gates.html for a funny pic. of Gates! From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sun Apr 16 10:09:56 2000 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: IBM /lexmark 4033-001 token ring print servers (2) Message-ID: <38F9D7C4.F1CAE65B@bigfoot.com> I have 2 excess 4033-001 print servers with manual and power supply to find a new home for. Will trade for more common PC stuff that I can use or ethernet items. Will also consider offers for cash. Not too heavy, about 3 lbs each so shippingmost anywhere shoudln't be a biggie. No cable though, you need to supply either a DB9 to RJ45 media filter or the normal DB9 to IBM data connector whip to use them, dependant on your needs. From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Apr 16 10:49:36 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: IBM System/23 Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000416084936.009da100@agora.rdrop.com> An IBM System/23 in the Southern Illinois area in need of a home before it ends up heading for the landfill... Replies to the original sender please. -jim ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:44:51 -0500 >From: Taylor >Subject: IBM System/23 > >Have a friend who just acquired an IBM system/23. He thought it might >be something on which he could set up some of today's educational >software etc., for his kids (he's not computer literate yet) Anyway to >make a long story short, this stuff is sitting in the back of his truck >awaiting a trip to the local junkyard and I just found your museum >yesterday while I was searching for info on this old system. All >hardware appears to be present, though not put together as your picture >shows. There are two boxes of about 1982 vintage manuals (some still in >shrink wrap) It appears there is an old version of basic available. >There are at least 2 eight? inch floppy disks with it. Don't know if >this thing was ever set up and used or not. It's a bit grimy from >sitting in a garage somewhere and the manuals smell musty, so the >"storage" conditions weren't the best. > >If you think there are any possibilties for this thing, please let me >know. Located in southern Illinois in Carbondale (where the >University is) about 90 miles SE of St Louis MO. and 75 mile NW of >Paducah KY. if that helps > >email is lstaylor@siu.edu Thanks for your time... Linda Taylor. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sun Apr 16 11:21:10 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE In-Reply-To: <001d01bfa7ae$b172c4a0$0400c0a8@winbook>; from edick@idcomm.com on Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 08:18:51AM -0600 References: <001d01bfa7ae$b172c4a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <20000416122110.A29941@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 08:18:51AM -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Has anyone on this list dealt directly (not through the BIOS) with 8-bit > IDE drives of 2-1/2" size? ... Any size at all? No, I haven't heard of any 8-bit IDE models since the very ancient Seagate ST___X drives. But I gotta ask, why even bother looking for them, when using a 16-bit IDE drive on an 8-bit bus is *SO* easy? Two 373s, a 244, a 245, and a PAL for the selects (plus a flip-flop if you want to be cute and have the even and odd bytes go through the same I/O port address). And then you can use any old drive, no need to get addicted to rare models. John Wilson D Bit From liste at artware.qc.ca Sun Apr 16 11:31:51 2000 From: liste at artware.qc.ca (liste@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: New Toy, Yikes it wants batteries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 15-Apr-2000 Mike Ford wrote: > New Toy > I found a TRS 80 pocket computer in the original box with software > manual and cassette interface. Cute little monster, but it wants to eat > Type 675 batteries at a rate of 4/300 hours. It warns against using a > type 675E, but Radio Shack carried neither a plain 675 or a 675E, just > a "replacement" for a whole slew (hee hee) of 675 this or thats called > a RS675. Any ideas on a common modern equivalent battery? I bought one > feeding of 4, and the thing comes right up, but regular feeding needs > to be on a bargain brand of battery chow. You dog! I've been looking for a cassette interface for one of those for a year now. The PC-2 (pocket computer) was the first computer I ever programmed. It's a pretty full-featured scientific calculator that you can also program in BASIC. They are in fact re"branded" Sharp pocket computers. In fact, Sharp still makes pocket computers, only nowadays they have agenda/phone book/stuff and aren't programmable in BASIC via a tiny QWERTY keyboard. What model do you have? I have a Sharp PC-1403H... with 32KB RAM! I bought 2 of them for 20 $ CAD each in a thrift shop. They were sold as-is, without manual, interface, nothing. I gave one to my brother. We are both searching high and low for the manual. I took mine apart and notice there's a pezo speaker in it. Only I haven't found out how to use it. Ideally, I want to write a video game for it :) About batteries : are you talking about batteries in the interface or in the PC itself? Mine came w/ 2x Sharp CR-2032 batteries. I had some problems with it, so I went to a watch store to get replacements to see if the battery was the problem (it wasn't, it was the power switch that had been put back on wrong) and am now using Renata CR-2032. When I bought mine, it had a program in memory for calculating taxes or something. I had to use the ALL RESET function to clear it from RAM and be allowed to program in BASIC. I'm wondering if this wasn't written in assembler or something. -Philip PS : be very wary taking it apart. The keycaps aren't attached to anything and will all fall out if you aren't careful :) From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Apr 16 10:59:21 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE Message-ID: <001401bfa7c6$ac996340$7064c0d0@ajp166> >No, I haven't heard of any 8-bit IDE models since the very ancient Seagate >ST___X drives. But I gotta ask, why even bother looking for them, when I happen to have a few WD and ST series ones but they are native ide-8 and no bit change for 16bit. 8bit IDE is true oddball and I really doubt there was much in the way of adpotion. doing 8bit conversion takes a bit of logic and the direct 8bit IDE looks appealing until you try to use them... They didn't standardize! I gave up on them. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 16 12:35:24 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: Needed--Mac 400k drive In-Reply-To: from "Richard A. Cini, Jr." at Apr 15, 0 09:08:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 522 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000416/6a68725f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 16 12:55:04 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: 600 RPM 3.5 inch drives (was Re: Lubing Shugart 800,801's?) In-Reply-To: <20000416023744.14777.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 16, 0 02:37:44 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3485 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000416/5d2e502c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 16 13:05:16 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE In-Reply-To: <001d01bfa7ae$b172c4a0$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 16, 0 08:18:51 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1295 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000416/cc6095e4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 16 13:17:24 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: New Toy, Yikes it wants batteries In-Reply-To: from "liste@artware.qc.ca" at Apr 16, 0 12:31:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2250 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000416/9c73057f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 16 13:08:55 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: I'm a proud daddy In-Reply-To: <000f01bfa75e$f0530400$0174fea9@francois> from "Sue & Francois" at Apr 15, 0 11:47:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1013 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000416/58215178/attachment.ksh From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net Sun Apr 16 15:34:45 2000 From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (Sue & Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: I'm a proud daddy References: Message-ID: <000d01bfa7e3$35081480$0174fea9@francois> I figured that since the robot was to be an appliance type, the service and technical information must have been a very closed affair. That and the fact that it was not very popular (couple thousands made ?) would render the inof even harder to find. I will be opening it as soon as I free up enough space to work on it confortably. One of the first things I would like to do with it, is to restore it to it's original condition. Then I would like to perform some non-destructive upgrades on it. Open to suggestions for now. At this point, in order to restore it, I need to find out what was inside to start with. Francois ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2000 1:08 PM Subject: Re: I'm a proud daddy > > I guess I need all kind of information; it says "no user serviceable parts > > inside" on the skin so I guess a hardware or service manual may be too much > > to ask but I would like to find some info as to what it was capable of as > > You're probably right about the chances of finding a service manual, but > the 'no user serviceable parts inside' doesn't always imply that the > manual won't be available. I suspect that wording is a legal requirement > for equipment sold in some countries (no matter what it actually is, or > whether the user could reasonably be expected to fix it) and that it > doesn't actually mean anything. > > Related to this, I have a Sony (I think) service manual for some kind of > home video effects generator/mixer/thingy. The first part of the manual > is a reprint of the user manaul and ends with 'Do not remove screws. No > user serviceable parts inside. Refer servicing to qualified personnel'. > You guessed it, the next section of the manual tells you how to take it > to bits... > > -tony > From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net Sun Apr 16 15:37:52 2000 From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (Sue & Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: New Toy, Yikes it wants batteries References: Message-ID: <001301bfa7e3$a3f1a280$0174fea9@francois> Any chance to get a copy (electronic or other) of the tech manual for the 1500? I did some search on the www to no avail. Thanks Francois ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2000 1:17 PM Subject: Re: New Toy, Yikes it wants batteries Snip > > Sharp did produce Technical manuals for some of their machines. I have > them for the PC1500 series and the PC1350 series. These manuals document > the machine code, give ROM routine calls, schematics, etc. So it's quite > possible that you had a program written in machine code. There are > probably also ways of making uneditable/unexitable BASIC programs if you > POKE in the right place as well... > > > > > -Philip > > > > PS : be very wary taking it apart. The keycaps aren't attached to > > anything and will all fall out if you aren't careful :) > > It can't be as bad as some of the HP desktop keyboards (HP9815, HP9825, > etc). The keycaps on those fall out even if you are careful.... > > -tony > From paulrsm at ameritech.net Sun Apr 16 16:12:11 2000 From: paulrsm at ameritech.net (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:48 2005 Subject: More freebie classic documentation Message-ID: <20000416212019.FPDI10292.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> 4th class book rate is okay. Paul R. Santa-Maria P.O. Box 924 Monroe MI 48161-0924 ---------- > From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com > To: CLASSICCMP@classiccmp.org > Subject: More freebie classic documentation > Date: Saturday, April 15, 2000 03:57 PM > > The following are available for shipping cost from Bethesda MD 20817: > > 1. "New Word" paperback, describing the CP/M screen-oriented editor. > > First come, first served. Be sure to supply your mailing address > and which items you want, and I'll let you know the shipping costs. > Generally any two or three items above can be sent to the lower 48 > via USPS priority mail for $3.20. > > Tim. (shoppa@trailing-edge.com) From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 16 18:04:18 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE References: <001d01bfa7ae$b172c4a0$0400c0a8@winbook> <20000416122110.A29941@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <001301bfa7f8$187c71c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Frankly, the reason I'm exploring this is because with the 8-bit mode, I don't have to buffer the data at all beyond the on-board data-in and data out buffers at the bus interface. The board I'm using to host the thing is one equipped with buffers on the low-order address, data in, and data out. It also produces a suitable select, read, and write strobe. If I were willing to add any components at all, which would be the case if I had to use the 16-bit interface I'd certainly not fiddle with the TTL MSI. I'd be inclined to use a CPLD since they can drive the cable. >From what I read in the standard, this is a normally selectable operating mode for the interface. What's more, only the smallest of drives would be appropriate for CP/M on the S-100, since CP/M supports, at most, 120 MB, and that only at the expense of having any FDD's. I've got floppy drives that handle that much. Back when I used CP/M every day, I owned the largest hard disk system on CP/M that I'd ever seen, at 44MB. I bought a 15 GB drive this afternoon that cost only $99. The small notebook drives should cost about $5-10, which is acceptable. Clearly, lower capacity drives, less common, of course, would probably cost about that much as well. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: John Wilson To: calassic computer mailing_list Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2000 10:21 AM Subject: Re: 8-bit IDE > On Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 08:18:51AM -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Has anyone on this list dealt directly (not through the BIOS) with 8-bit > > IDE drives of 2-1/2" size? ... Any size at all? > > No, I haven't heard of any 8-bit IDE models since the very ancient Seagate > ST___X drives. But I gotta ask, why even bother looking for them, when > using a 16-bit IDE drive on an 8-bit bus is *SO* easy? Two 373s, a 244, > a 245, and a PAL for the selects (plus a flip-flop if you want to be cute > and have the even and odd bytes go through the same I/O port address). > And then you can use any old drive, no need to get addicted to rare models. > > John Wilson > D Bit From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 16 18:13:17 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE References: <001401bfa7c6$ac996340$7064c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <001901bfa7f9$59d09380$0400c0a8@winbook> plz see comments below. ----- Original Message ----- From: allisonp To: Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2000 9:59 AM Subject: Re: 8-bit IDE > >No, I haven't heard of any 8-bit IDE models since the very ancient Seagate > >ST___X drives. But I gotta ask, why even bother looking for them, when > > > I happen to have a few WD and ST series ones but they are native ide-8 > and no bit change for 16bit. 8bit IDE is true oddball and I really doubt > there > was much in the way of adpotion. > > doing 8bit conversion takes a bit of logic and the direct 8bit IDE looks > appealing until you try to use them... They didn't standardize! I gave up > on them. > As it happens, the committee did standardize on the one mode bit that makes the interface an 8-bitter. How extensively that was adhered to remains to be seen, I guess. The early COMPAQ drives were pretty consistent in their 8-bit data width. I'm not looking to manufacture these things in quantity. I have a couple of dozen bare S-100 boards which have one input and one output port. I'm aware of what the circuit is, though I'd never have done things the way the board's makers did it, and there's mostly bare board for whatever one can do with that. The "thin" notebook drives will handily attach to the component side of the board, consistently with a connector scheme I've hacked from a standard IDE-to-notebook drive adapter. This board will be used for this adapter, and for the "hard-card" that I want to make up, only because I know I'll only build 2 or 3 of the things. The interface will require only that the interconnections be provided. This means wire and a connector will provide a generic 8-bit IDE interface for the S-100. Dick > > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 16 18:19:21 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE References: Message-ID: <003001bfa7fa$32ee3dc0$0400c0a8@winbook> Those "special" drives are not what I meant to ask about. I want to know more about the 8-bit mode described in the ATA Interface Specification as published in 1994 and 1996. This is apparently a "standard" feature. It appears that there's a control bit in one of the control registers that allows the interface, which defaults to 16-bit mode, to be configured for 8-bit data width. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2000 12:05 PM Subject: Re: 8-bit IDE > > Recently, as part of my effort on an S-100 "hard-card" using a 2-1/2 = > > inch ide drive, I've been revisiting the 1994 standard for the ATA = > > interface. There's a not-too-detailed mention of an 8-bit mode which is = > > set up using a bit in register. This feature was apparently obsoleted = > > as of 1996's standard. =20 > > I remember _special_ 8 bit IDE drives. The model numbers usually had an > 'X' (for XT, I guess) in them, and they were used with special 8-bit > controller cards in PC/XT systems. I have no idea how compatible the rest > of the interface was with the PC/AT IDE drives. These drives are almost > impossible to find now, at least in any quantity. > > It's actually not that hard to use a normal 16 bit IDE drive in an 8 bit > system (like an S100 card). You need a few buffers/latches to convert > between 8 and 16 bits on read/write, that's about it. > > Actually, although it pains me to say this, IDE drives are so cheap per > megabyte now that you could probably get away with wasting every other > byte... Just use a 3-state buffer to always write the top 8 data lines as > 0 (or FF or...) and ignore them on read. After all, people give away 1Gb > IDE drives these days (or so I've heard), and 500M of storage (i.e. > wasting every other byte) is massive for S100 systems. > > -tony > From broth at heathers.stdio.com Sun Apr 16 19:14:14 2000 From: broth at heathers.stdio.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: Flea Market Fun Message-ID: <38FA5756.9FC671F@heathers.stdio.com> My favorite words from a flea market vendor is "I don't know anything about this stuff... " Just picked up two Timex Sinclairs, Timex 2068 CPU, printer, cassette interface all brand new in the original box's. $10 for the whole shabang. I wonder if I should send in the warranties... Brian. From rcini at msn.com Sun Apr 16 19:50:42 2000 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: Mac/gs<==> PC? Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Apr 2000 21:02:01 -0600, Jim Strickland wrote: <> My thought was to use TransMac98 on my PC, format the disk to 1.4mb and con nect the SuperDrive to my SE30. That way, I can move compressed disk archive s to the network for archival. The underlying activity here is to make archi val copies of my existing 15-yr old diskettes and put images on my network. If I can only get a Superdrive for the gs, I can move the programs over by 8 00k disks and then copy them to 1.4m. <> I do have one of these, and I'll probably burn a CD with the disk images on it. Right now, I need to get the programs off of the diskettes onto a safe m edia. Rich [ Rich Cini [ ClubWin!/CW1 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ <================ reply separator =================> From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sun Apr 16 20:12:42 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE In-Reply-To: <001301bfa7f8$187c71c0$0400c0a8@winbook>; from edick@idcomm.com on Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 05:04:18PM -0600 References: <001d01bfa7ae$b172c4a0$0400c0a8@winbook> <20000416122110.A29941@dbit.dbit.com> <001301bfa7f8$187c71c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <20000416211242.A31291@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 05:04:18PM -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: > If I were > willing to add any components at all, which would be the case if I had to > use the 16-bit interface I'd certainly not fiddle with the TTL MSI. I'd be > inclined to use a CPLD since they can drive the cable. Well you do what you gotta do. IMHO this job is just too easy to waste a CPLD on it, I felt a bit funny about even using a PAL for the decode but I was just building one board so I would have spent more time wiring than I spent burning PALs. Anyway the loose parts will cost less than the CPLD and they're less likely to get discontinued in a year. If you're tight for space you can use the SOIC versions... John Wilson D Bit From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Apr 16 19:44:36 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE Message-ID: <006001bfa80a$6e607de0$7064c0d0@ajp166> >Frankly, the reason I'm exploring this is because with the 8-bit mode, I >don't have to buffer the data at all beyond the on-board data-in and data >out buffers at the bus interface. The board I'm using to host the thing is handy but that feature is not there. >From what I read in the standard, this is a normally selectable operating >mode for the interface. What's more, only the smallest of drives would be >appropriate for CP/M on the S-100, since CP/M supports, at most, 120 MB, Actually it supports 16 drives of 8mb each for CP/M 2.2 and 32Mb for CP/M3. P2dos, Novados, SuprBDOS all support files to 32mb and drives to 1gb. BUT, the logical drive to physical drive map does not have to be static. For example you could only have drives C/D/E/F as mapped to 8mb logical drives. Drive C: could be partition 1 and a fixed mapping. Drives D/E/F could be mapped to floating partitions anywhere on a very large drive. I supported two 71mb MFM drives this way back in 87 under CP/M2.2. >handle that much. Back when I used CP/M every day, I owned the largest hard >disk system on CP/M that I'd ever seen, at 44MB. Obviously you've never seen many of the systems I ran or have aquired. Likely the 44mb limit was based on inavailability of really large drives. Even my AmproLB has a 45mb SCSI on it and I plan to bump that up to a 160mb. The current system I'm building I'm planning will have IDE 250mb drive. Space is handy as I can have a 8mb partition for pascal and another for C or whatever. >notebook drives should cost about $5-10, which is acceptable. Clearly, There are plenty for under 25$. Though you have to decide on 9.5mm, 12mm or 17mm thick models. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Apr 16 18:10:10 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE Message-ID: <005e01bfa80a$6cd4adc0$7064c0d0@ajp166> >Those "special" drives are not what I meant to ask about. I want to know >more about the 8-bit mode described in the ATA Interface Specification as >published in 1994 and 1996. This is apparently a "standard" feature. It was a proposed feature. Not used that I know of and later deleted from the spec. I've never found a drive that it works on, wish it did though. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Apr 16 18:17:46 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE Message-ID: <005f01bfa80a$6db0b5e0$7064c0d0@ajp166> >As it happens, the committee did standardize on the one mode bit that makes >the interface an 8-bitter. How extensively that was adhered to remains to >be seen, I guess. Well wishful thinking had me check it out using several 85-130mb drives (quantum, Seagate, maxtor, WD) and none seem to do that. After all having that would make the interface a no brainer and save a simple silo for splitting read and writes. However, it was wishful thinking. As to doing it on S100, been there done that. the interface logic needed to do the bus does 3/4s of the work and it only needs a bit more the close the loop. CPLD/FPGA/PAL could cover most of that but for S100 I like real TTL (244/241/373) like parts and NO cmos where the bis interface occurs. Allison From ip500 at roanoke.infi.net Sun Apr 16 21:45:16 2000 From: ip500 at roanoke.infi.net (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: Marquette "MUSE"--DEC mini/file server circa 1986-88 Message-ID: <38FA7ABC.360AE4A@roanoke.infi.net> Anyone know anything about the above captioned computer??? It's a beast! Big HEAVY! upright tower system 27" tall X 27" deep with a HUGE power transformer in the bottom of the case. Model D171. Main components are DEC Backplane marked "H9275A", processor card "M8192" bunch of other non-DEC cards in there as well--SIGMA, EMULEX, couple of unmarked ones. Powers up, HD blinks, has a built in tape drive. Did a search for Marquette and they are now GE/Marquette--medical/EKG,EEG monitoring stuff. Is this some sort of rebadged DEC system or a totally custom ie: worthless medical gadget....looks promising. Thanks, Craig From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Apr 16 22:24:42 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: Marquette "MUSE"--DEC mini/file server circa 1986-88 In-Reply-To: <38FA7ABC.360AE4A@roanoke.infi.net> Message-ID: >Anyone know anything about the above captioned computer??? It's >a beast! Big HEAVY! upright tower system 27" tall X 27" deep with a HUGE >power transformer in the bottom of the case. Model D171. > Main components are DEC Backplane marked "H9275A", processor card >"M8192" bunch of other non-DEC cards in there as well--SIGMA, EMULEX, >couple of unmarked ones. Powers up, HD blinks, has a built in tape >drive. > Did a search for Marquette and they are now >GE/Marquette--medical/EKG,EEG monitoring stuff. > Is this some sort of rebadged DEC system or a totally custom >ie: worthless medical gadget....looks promising. > Thanks, Craig Interesting. The M8192 is a PDP-11/73 CPU Board. Is the M8192 dual or quad height? Be interesting to know what the rest of the cards are. Sounds like some kind of OEM setup. I can't imagine the only "MUSE" I'm aware of being related, but it's possible. There was a Word Processing package for Harris Mini's called MUSE. However, I'm sure this isn't related. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 16 23:40:31 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE References: <005f01bfa80a$6db0b5e0$7064c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <001501bfa827$114e5380$0400c0a8@winbook> You've lost me, Allison. How did you "try it out?" There's a bit that has to be set in one of the registers to make the drive use and 8-bit interface rather than the usual 16. No amount of fiddling with the drive will change that. It either does it or it doesn't, and I've sent email to several makers of IDE drives, referring to the standard and asking how their drives handled that paragraph in the standard. Of course you'd have to look up the standard that prevailed at the time the drives were made. Please see comments below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: allisonp To: Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2000 5:17 PM Subject: Re: 8-bit IDE > >As it happens, the committee did standardize on the one mode bit that makes > >the interface an 8-bitter. How extensively that was adhered to remains to > >be seen, I guess. > > > Well wishful thinking had me check it out using several 85-130mb drives > (quantum, Seagate, maxtor, WD) and none seem to do that. After all > having that would make the interface a no brainer and save a simple silo > for splitting read and writes. However, it was wishful thinking. > What??? > > As to doing it on S100, been there done that. the interface logic needed > to do the bus does 3/4s of the work and it only needs a bit more the > close the loop. CPLD/FPGA/PAL could cover most of that but for S100 > I like real TTL (244/241/373) like parts and NO cmos where the bis > interface occurs. > I personally like the CMOS much better since it drives harder, and since it pulls and pushes with the same impedance, unlike TTL which sinks 16 and sources 1.6 mA. I've tried replacing all the bus interface buffers on my old S-100 cards with AC logic. In some cases I used HC or AHCT (SAMSUNG) always finding that it all works better than TTL or at least makes prettier waveforms on the bus. My S-100's are normally DC terminated with simple 220/330 resistor dividers. In a couple of cases I have a passive termination board with a 3-volt regulator on board, while in another case I have an active terminator. > > Allison > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 16 23:42:23 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE References: <005e01bfa80a$6cd4adc0$7064c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <001b01bfa827$533d9940$0400c0a8@winbook> The only case in which I saw the word "proposed" associated with the reference to the 8-bit mode of operation was in the 1996 draft standard wherein its removal from the standard was proposed. It's not optional, tentative, or anything else conditional in the '94 standard. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: allisonp To: Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2000 5:10 PM Subject: Re: 8-bit IDE > >Those "special" drives are not what I meant to ask about. I want to know > >more about the 8-bit mode described in the ATA Interface Specification as > >published in 1994 and 1996. This is apparently a "standard" feature. > > > It was a proposed feature. Not used that I know of and later deleted from > the spec. I've never found a drive that it works on, wish it did though. > > Allison > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 17 00:08:07 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE References: <006001bfa80a$6e607de0$7064c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <002101bfa82a$eb9b9cc0$0400c0a8@winbook> please see embedded comments below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: allisonp To: Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2000 6:44 PM Subject: Re: 8-bit IDE > >Frankly, the reason I'm exploring this is because with the 8-bit mode, I > >don't have to buffer the data at all beyond the on-board data-in and data > >out buffers at the bus interface. The board I'm using to host the thing > is > > handy but that feature is not there. > > >From what I read in the standard, this is a normally selectable operating > >mode for the interface. What's more, only the smallest of drives would be > >appropriate for CP/M on the S-100, since CP/M supports, at most, 120 MB, > > Actually it supports 16 drives of 8mb each for CP/M 2.2 and 32Mb for CP/M3. > P2dos, Novados, SuprBDOS all support files to 32mb and drives to 1gb. > The really good thing about the latchless and bufferless interface to the 8-bit channel is also readily adaptable to a RAMDISK via the same channel. That's what makes me hope for the availability of the 8-bit mode as described in the ATA standard. Using LBA, it's possible to write a 24-bit sector address to a RAMDISK. An old 8-bit SIMM would do the job nicely. I'm not fired up about these various OS' (yet) and won't be until I'm sure I know how to exploit their features. In any case, in a system where I've got 2 floppies, a dummy FDD, and a ramdisk, I can only use 12 logical drives at a time, since the max is 16, which, if it were all in HDD's would be 96 MB. Since it appears to be the consensus that all the doc's + all the software and such for CP/M 2.2 and earlier, take up less than 50 MB, a big drive in excess of 120 MB would make no sense at all. The Walnut creek CD has only about 1/5 of its capacity used. So, while it may be possible with a lot of effort and with the certainty that you'll be out there all by yourself, to use a bigger drive, what's the point? I mentioned I had a 44MB drive back in the '80's and even though I had several copies of everything, it was never even close to half full. So, while I don't doubt that someone could figure out a way to use a bigger drive rationally, I don't feel motivated to go out of my way. If the pico-drives I already have will work in 8-bit mode, then the code I already have will work to operate them. If not, I'll build up a circuit equivalent to the Tilmann Reh GIDE interface, less RTC. It's less RTC because I have a different RTC device if I ever want to use one. > > BUT, the logical drive to physical drive map does not have to be static. > For example you could only have drives C/D/E/F as mapped to 8mb logical > drives. Drive C: could be partition 1 and a fixed mapping. Drives D/E/F > could be mapped to floating partitions anywhere on a very large drive. > I supported two 71mb MFM drives this way back in 87 under CP/M2.2. > The two 2-1/2" IDE drives I've got for this hard-card thing are both 250 MB, nominally. If you have a good and inobtrusive way to accomodate that without reducing the size of the TPA to such extent that I can't run a normal 64K CP/M and such that I can still use the MT+ v5.5 or so Pascal compiler for serious work, I'd be interested. I've also got a couple of 2-1/2" (IBM)drives with a 2mm-pin pitch connector with enough pins to be a SCSI device. I don't know what their pinout is likely to be. I'll have to look in the standards, since IBM doesn't have them on their site. These are 120 MB in size. > The standard v2.2 CP/M doesn't like logical drives (partitions) bigger than 64K 128-byte sectors. That's 8192 KB. What I'm after is something that will paste easily into a pretty standard CP/M 2.2. All the other whatever-dos will have to be denonstrated working properly and properly documented as well before I'll be interested. > >handle that much. Back when I used CP/M every day, I owned the largest > hard > >disk system on CP/M that I'd ever seen, at 44MB. > > > Obviously you've never seen many of the systems I ran or have aquired. > Likely > the 44mb limit was based on inavailability of really large drives. Even my > AmproLB has a 45mb SCSI on it and I plan to bump that up to a 160mb. The > current system I'm building I'm planning will have IDE 250mb drive. Space > is handy as I can have a 8mb partition for pascal and another for C or > whatever. > You're right, I haven't seen the systems of the type you describe. That's because I switched to PC's in about '84. Most of the hard disks I saw in commercial use with CP/M were about 20 MB. These were sufficient. Apparently that was a practica size for DEC machines of the time too, since most of my partner's DEC clients had 11's of some sort, mostly with single 20 MB drives. > > Allison > > > From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Apr 17 00:14:39 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: Lubing Shugart 800,801's? Message-ID: <20000417051439.29302.qmail@web617.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > Yes, but if you remove the entire head positioner (including the guide > rails, etc) and put it back on _some_ drives you might have moved it > sideways slightly. This will affect the index timing (since the relative > position of head and index sensor have moved). > > Some drives have the guide rails fitting into V-grooves in the main > casting, and those generally you can take apart and put back without > problems. I recently restored a Mac PowerBook 160 that was apparently dropped before it made its way into my hands - the hard disk won't even spin up, several of the screw mounts were sheared in the lower case and the floppy guide rail had jumped its track entirely. The head was flopping around loose inside the drive. It took a bit of fiddling, but I remounted the guide rail and reassembled the drive - worked the first time. Now if only I had a 60-120Mb 2.5" SCSI drive to drop in this thing, I'd have a portable rig for dumping my QuickTake 150 digital camera. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Apr 16 23:47:19 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: Flea Market Fun In-Reply-To: <38FA5756.9FC671F@heathers.stdio.com> Message-ID: >My favorite words from a flea market vendor is "I don't know anything >about this stuff... " Just picked up two Timex Sinclairs, Timex 2068 Mine are; "Why don't you just take the whole box.", "My friend has one of those in his garage, but you have to take the whole system/pallet.", "nobody wants that stuff anymore, bring your truck and take it away." From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 17 00:43:41 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE References: <001d01bfa7ae$b172c4a0$0400c0a8@winbook> <20000416122110.A29941@dbit.dbit.com> <001301bfa7f8$187c71c0$0400c0a8@winbook> <20000416211242.A31291@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <002701bfa82f$e373a740$0400c0a8@winbook> The reason for using CPLD's rather than the TTL MSI parts is that the CPLD's drive harder and better (symmetrical outputs) and don't require changing the wiring when the logic has to be fiddled with. The board, of course, has the 0.10" wirewrap matrix, so a package that will fit on that will be a requirement. I figure a SMALL CPLD, e.g. EP 1800 will fill the bill. However, I hope to get by using the 8-bit channel if that's for real. There are some small (68-pin) CPLD's that cost about what the TTL would cost, i.e. about $9, including the socket. SO packages are out of the question since I'm not making a new PCB, but rather using unpopulated boards that already exist. At present it looks like I can use the resident buffers and logic to decode space for a SCSI (NCR53C80) a WD100x-series board, and this 8-bit IDE would get all its signals from the same place as the WD100x channel, since they're very similar. All this for swapping an 'LS682 comparator with a GAL16V8. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: John Wilson To: Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2000 7:12 PM Subject: Re: 8-bit IDE > On Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 05:04:18PM -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > If I were > > willing to add any components at all, which would be the case if I had to > > use the 16-bit interface I'd certainly not fiddle with the TTL MSI. I'd be > > inclined to use a CPLD since they can drive the cable. > > Well you do what you gotta do. IMHO this job is just too easy to waste a > CPLD on it, I felt a bit funny about even using a PAL for the decode but > I was just building one board so I would have spent more time wiring than > I spent burning PALs. Anyway the loose parts will cost less than the CPLD > and they're less likely to get discontinued in a year. If you're tight for > space you can use the SOIC versions... > > John Wilson > D Bit From PeksaDO at Cardiff.ac.uk Mon Apr 17 10:26:36 2000 From: PeksaDO at Cardiff.ac.uk (DOUG PEKSA - COMPG) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: PS/2 memory Message-ID: Speaking of PS/2 memory, can anyone shed any light on the following MCA memory card: Made by Quadram. There are various stickers: [908503] [02790487][REV 1B] [K.B.] [9080R1] [9081R1] [9079R2] The [908503] sticker obscures an etch number 17-9085-[908503]R1 There are four 30pin SIMM slots furthest from the back plate, each containing a 1Mbyte SIMM. I've searched the web but can't find any info. There are three 3pin jumpers (marked J1, J2, J3) and one toggle switch on the back plate. I've assumed that the jumpers set the starting address/size and that the toggle switches it off and on but can't see any extra memory (even after trying various combinations) in my PS/2 model 80. Doug. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Apr 17 06:59:59 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: Marquette "MUSE"--DEC mini/file server circa 1986-88 Message-ID: <000417075959.20200662@trailing-edge.com> > Is this some sort of rebadged DEC system or a totally custom >ie: worthless medical gadget....looks promising. It's a system, with DEC CPU, non-DEC controllers/peripherals and a non-DEC backplane/chassis/power supply. Not too unusual - IMHO it's *more* unusual to find an entirely-DEC system. Note that it is possible to assemble a brand-new PDP-11 "compatible" using no DEC parts at all. For instance, I know of one desktop system using a Mentec M11 CPU (totally custom implementation, not even a J11), Andromeda SCDC SCSI host adapter, Logical Company async multiplexer, and a Seagate SCSI hard drive in an Andromeda desktop Q-bus enclosure. Tim. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Apr 17 09:23:06 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE In-Reply-To: References: <001d01bfa7ae$b172c4a0$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 16, 0 08:18:51 am Message-ID: <200004171224.e3HCOpS05988@mail2.siemens.de> > > Recently, as part of my effort on an S-100 "hard-card" using a 2-1/2 > > inch ide drive, I've been revisiting the 1994 standard for the ATA > > interface. There's a not-too-detailed mention of an 8-bit mode which is > > set up using a bit in register. This feature was apparently obsoleted > > as of 1996's standard. > It's actually not that hard to use a normal 16 bit IDE drive in an 8 bit > system (like an S100 card). You need a few buffers/latches to convert > between 8 and 16 bits on read/write, that's about it. > Actually, although it pains me to say this, IDE drives are so cheap per > megabyte now that you could probably get away with wasting every other > byte... Just use a 3-state buffer to always write the top 8 data lines as > 0 (or FF or...) and ignore them on read. After all, people give away 1Gb > IDE drives these days (or so I've heard), and 500M of storage (i.e. > wasting every other byte) is massive for S100 systems. Quite an inriguing idea. You also will get 256 Byte records ... a more common size back then. Well, what about commands etc. pp ? Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 17 08:12:30 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE In-Reply-To: <001501bfa827$114e5380$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: > You've lost me, Allison. How did you "try it out?" There's a bit that has > to be set in one of the registers to make the drive use and 8-bit interface > rather than the usual 16. No amount of fiddling with the drive will change > that. It either does it or it doesn't, and I've sent email to several > makers of IDE drives, referring to the standard and asking how their drives > handled that paragraph in the standard. Of course you'd have to look up the > standard that prevailed at the time the drives were made. Took my existing 16bit interfaced IDE and wrote a pattern in sector 0, head 0, cylinder 0 or 0->ffh repeatedly till I filled the sector. Then I disabled the word translation logic, tried setting the bit in a read op and I got 0,2,4,6.... didn't work. > > Well wishful thinking had me check it out using several 85-130mb drives > > (quantum, Seagate, maxtor, WD) and none seem to do that. After all > > having that would make the interface a no brainer and save a simple silo > > for splitting read and writes. However, it was wishful thinking. > > > What??? I tried to interface using only 8bit data and using the 8-bit IO bit and it didn't work. It was wishful thinking I could use it. > I personally like the CMOS much better since it drives harder, and since it > pulls and pushes with the same impedance, unlike TTL which sinks 16 and > sources 1.6 mA. I've tried replacing all the bus interface buffers on my > old S-100 cards with AC logic. In some cases I used HC or AHCT (SAMSUNG) I've seen latchup on busses that ring negative using HC and HCT parts. I'd like the better drive but they would randomly flame on me due to the bus ringing. Obviously loading the bus with terminators would solve this but it's still something that worried me and made for a less robust card for handling and ESD. Allison From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Apr 17 08:25:07 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE Message-ID: <000417092507.20200662@trailing-edge.com> >> I personally like the CMOS much better since it drives harder, and since it >> pulls and pushes with the same impedance, unlike TTL which sinks 16 and >> sources 1.6 mA. I've tried replacing all the bus interface buffers on my >> old S-100 cards with AC logic. In some cases I used HC or AHCT (SAMSUNG) >I've seen latchup on busses that ring negative using HC and HCT parts. >I'd like the better drive but they would randomly flame on me due to the >bus ringing. Obviously loading the bus with terminators would solve this >but it's still something that worried me and made for a less robust card >for handling and ESD. Is the cheapness of IDE drives worth all the heartache of the cable length and funny line driver limitations? The cable length limitations are so short that you've almost got to put the hard drive in the same box as the CPU - this isn't good if you want expandable or flexible systems! But if "cheap" is the main requirement, I suppose it's OK. Maybe I'm too used to dealing with systems where the hard drive might be 60 or 100 feet away from the CPU... (differential SCSI and SMD.) Tim. From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 17 08:34:21 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE In-Reply-To: <002101bfa82a$eb9b9cc0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: > > > The really good thing about the latchless and bufferless interface to the > 8-bit channel is also readily adaptable to a RAMDISK via the same channel. > That's what makes me hope for the availability of the 8-bit mode as > described in the ATA standard. Using LBA, it's possible to write a 24-bit > sector address to a RAMDISK. An old 8-bit SIMM would do the job nicely. Been there done that. Current ramdisk is 8 1mx9 30 pin simms. I use cas before ras refresh and a loadable autoincrement register for transfers. Works just fine and using CMOS runs on 4 225mah nicards for many days. > know how to exploit their features. In any case, in a system where I've got They are CPM, the difference is the internal logic for FCB to sector/cylinder is 24bit math rather than 16bit truncated. They also allow larger ALLOC sizes (up to 32k). > Since it appears to be the consensus that all the doc's + all the software > and such for CP/M 2.2 and earlier, take up less than 50 MB, a big drive in > excess of 120 MB would make no sense at all. The Walnut creek CD has only True save for it's a flat directory. I've foudn that multiple partitions each for C, pascal, basic, CPM and other things allow lots of space while not filling the directory of any one. Doing that tends to eat space but in the long run it's a easier work enviornment and easier to backup. > effort and with the certainty that you'll be out there all by yourself, to > use a bigger drive, what's the point? I mentioned I had a 44MB drive back > in the '80's and even though I had several copies of everything, it was > never even close to half full. So, while I don't doubt that someone could Currently used 45mb SCSI is 65% full and it does not contain everything I'd like on it. Keep in mind I tend to keep sources and executables in the same space as well as docs. To make handling easier I expand all files (no compression). The WC cdrom if expanded with grow greatly. > figure out a way to use a bigger drive rationally, I don't feel motivated to > go out of my way. If the pico-drives I already have will work in 8-bit > mode, then the code I already have will work to operate them. If not, I'll Keep in mind I don't mount every partition in the house. I have a mount utility that will "attach" a partation to a drive name so that I don't have to have 12 drives. The savings in ALLOC space in considerable. > The two 2-1/2" IDE drives I've got for this hard-card thing are both 250 MB, > nominally. If you have a good and inobtrusive way to accomodate that > without reducing the size of the TPA to such extent that I can't run a > normal 64K CP/M and such that I can still use the MT+ v5.5 or so Pascal > compiler for serious work, I'd be interested. I've also got a couple of > 2-1/2" (IBM)drives with a 2mm-pin pitch connector with enough pins to be a > SCSI device. I don't know what their pinout is likely to be. I'll have to > look in the standards, since IBM doesn't have them on their site. These are > 120 MB in size. Well going to the enhanced BDOS will make logical drives bigger. Uing a utility to mount only the partitions you need will save AOLLOC space. Been doing that for 18+ years (mount utility) and nominally run a 56-60k tpa. > The standard v2.2 CP/M doesn't like logical drives (partitions) bigger than > 64K 128-byte sectors. That's 8192 KB. What I'm after is something that > will paste easily into a pretty standard CP/M 2.2. All the other Check the enhanced BDOS, they (all of them) are on the WC cdrom and SIMTEL. Not the real fix for larger logical drives and larger addressable disks is correcting the truncation that occurs in the bdos. This is a limitation of how the math was done and though there was a 24bit workspace all numbers were truncated to 16bit in the 8080 version likely due to the forseeable limits of the time. So you still have the 65535 allocation block limit (65535*16384=1gb) for the logical drive and a 262144 sector limit (32mb) for logical files and the FCB is unaffected. Note that some programs will internally bounds check and quite before you hit those limits. This still doesn't fix the fact that ALLOC space is 1bit per allocation block and that gets big real fast. The other fix is to bank the bios and use a common area in high memory. then space is less a concern. A mix of both is the hot setup. > whatever-dos will have to be denonstrated working properly and properly > documented as well before I'll be interested. Well it's old news. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 17 08:42:47 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE In-Reply-To: <000417092507.20200662@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > Is the cheapness of IDE drives worth all the heartache of the cable > length and funny line driver limitations? The cable length limitations > are so short that you've almost got to put the hard drive in the same > box as the CPU - this isn't good if you want expandable or flexible systems! > But if "cheap" is the main requirement, I suppose it's OK. Yes! keep in mind they are small and pitting them in most boxes for a lot of compact storage makes up for a lot. It's not ideal but easy to use and talk to them. I like SCSI for the interconnect but the driver code is painful especially if you useing the 5380 and clones. > Maybe I'm too used to dealing with systems where the hard drive might > be 60 or 100 feet away from the CPU... (differential SCSI and SMD.) That or trying to figure out where a 12gb 2.5" drive goes under the raised floor. ;) Allison From thompson at mail.athenet.net Mon Apr 17 08:42:31 2000 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: Marquette "MUSE"--DEC mini/file server circa 1986-88 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is an old EKG storage/transmission system. The hospital I worked for used a PDP based MUSE system for receiving EKG's from distant country hospitals which did not have the staff for a local EKG interpeting doctor. There was also a way to poll distant EKG machines, which is how I came to be involved with the system at the time. I was responsible for our call detail recording software and found that our MUSE was dialing a distant long distance number several times a minute for days straight. Marquette (a Milwaukee WI based company) was bought out by GE Medical several years ago. The current generation MUSE systems are typically an unholy alliance of OS/2 and NT servers bundled together. I was hoping to get my hands on the PDP MUSE at our site but it disappeared too quickly. Paul On Sun, 16 Apr 2000, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >Anyone know anything about the above captioned computer??? It's > >a beast! Big HEAVY! upright tower system 27" tall X 27" deep with a HUGE > >power transformer in the bottom of the case. Model D171. > > Main components are DEC Backplane marked "H9275A", processor card > >"M8192" bunch of other non-DEC cards in there as well--SIGMA, EMULEX, > >couple of unmarked ones. Powers up, HD blinks, has a built in tape > >drive. > > Did a search for Marquette and they are now > >GE/Marquette--medical/EKG,EEG monitoring stuff. > > Is this some sort of rebadged DEC system or a totally custom > >ie: worthless medical gadget....looks promising. > > Thanks, Craig > > Interesting. The M8192 is a PDP-11/73 CPU Board. Is the M8192 dual or > quad height? Be interesting to know what the rest of the cards are. > Sounds like some kind of OEM setup. > > I can't imagine the only "MUSE" I'm aware of being related, but it's > possible. There was a Word Processing package for Harris Mini's called > MUSE. However, I'm sure this isn't related. > > Zane From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Apr 17 09:14:03 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: Altos Xenix System References: Message-ID: <001501bfa877$32494360$8f81a7ca@helpdesk> I have acquired (someone dumped it on me) a really old Altos 486 (model, not cpu - 8085 or 86 I think) running a really early version of SCO Xenix. (Ver 3.0b). Seem to be non Y2K, but otherwise runs happily in it's whole 512k of ram. Not sure about the hard disk yet, probably 10mb or maybe even 5mb. Comes with a couple of terminals, one's an Altos III, the other looks identical but is a Wyse 50. Uses a funny multipin plug for the terminal keyboard. Anyone know how common these were around the place? Seems to have Multiplan and some kind of word processor and a database/inventory program of some sort. Belonged to some Electronic Parts firm near as I can figure out. I mentioned this system in passing about a year or so back, when I first looked at it for the owner, who wanted to use it, but he thought (not unreasonably for the uninitiated) that the 486 designation meant it was a 486 cpu. He took it away somewhat deflated, (bought at an auction for $30 - way too much) and I forgot about it. I did offer to take it off his hands at the time, but he declined. Well, he turned up the other day and dumped it plus a complete, genuine, working IBM XT with IBM CGA monitor and IBM Keyboard, plus a pile of C64 and other misc stuff. Seems he got sick of it laying about and remembered I was interested.....:^) I'm happy...... Cheers Geoff Roberts geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 17 09:39:37 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE References: <001d01bfa7ae$b172c4a0$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 16, 0 08:18:51 am <200004171224.e3HCOpS05988@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <001101bfa87a$c2eaafa0$0400c0a8@winbook> While I appreciate all the suggestions I've been getting, what I'm after is an answer to the question I've put forth. The 8-bit interface feature is written in the purported ANSI standard for ATA interfacing, yet nobody seems to have experience with it. I was hopeful that someone would know about this. No, I'm not interested in the older "pre-standard" 8-bit standard which was referred to in the proposed v.1 standard in the following remark from the standards committee meeting notes prior to the release of the initial standard. "I recommend that Section 6.2.5 be replaced with the following: The data register is either 8-bits or 16-bits depending on the interface width currently selected and/or the type of data being transferred by the current command. This register is used only by PIO data transfer commands." it goes on in reference to another feature-related command . . . "8.22. SEEK TYPE - Manadatory. PROTOCOL - Non-data. INPUTS - The Cylinder High, Cylinder Low, head portion of the Device/Head register and the Sector Number register contain the logical sector number in CHS or LBA mode to which the device should move the read/write heads. OUTPUTS - Same as the input registers. PREREQUISITES - None. DESCRIPTION - This command initiates a seek operation to the physical cylinder and head that contains the target logcial sector. If the device supports the indication of seek in progress and seek complete by clearing and setting the DSC bit in the Status register, then the device shall set DSC=0 when the seek operation is started and shall not set DSC=1 until the seek operation has completed. The device may clear BSY and generate an interrupt before the seek is completed. Devices that implement power management may not perform the seek operation if the current power state is Idle or Standby. If another command is issued to the device while BSY=0 but DSC=1, the device sets BSY=1, waits for the seek to complete, and then begins execution of the command. ERRORS - ID Not Found and Command Abort. 8.23. SET FEATURES TYPE - Optional. ############################################################# # #Hale's note: Oh, come on now, we all know that Set Features #really isn't optional any more! # ############################################################# PROTOCOL - Non-data. INPUTS - The Feature register contains a subcommand code as described in table 14. Some subcommands use other registers, such as the Sector Count register to pass additional information to the device. OUTPUTS - See the subcommand descriptions. PREREQUISITES - None. DESCRIPTION - This command is used by the host to establish the following parameters which affect the execution of certain device features as shown in table 14. +=====+=============================================================+ | 01h | Enable 8-bit data transfers (see 6.2.5) | | 02h | Enable write cache * | | 03h | Set transfer mode based on value in Sector Count register | | 33h | Disable retry * | | 44h | Length of vendor specific bytes on READ LONG/WRITE LONG cmds| | 54h | Set cache segments to Sector Count register value * | | 55h | Disable read look-ahead feature | | 66h | Disable reverting to power on defaults (see 8.23) | | 77h | Disable ECC * | | 81h | Disable 8-bit data transfers (see 6.2.5) | | 82h | Disable write cache * | | 88h | Enable ECC * | | 99h | Enable retries * | | AAh | Enable read look-ahead feature | | ABh | Set maximum prefetch using Sector Count register value * | | BBh | 4 bytes of vendor specific byts on READ LONG/WRITE LONG cmds| | CCh | Enable reverting to power on defaults (see 8.23) | |-----+-------------------------------------------------------------| | | *These feature definitions are vendor specific | +=====+=============================================================+ Table 14 - Set Features register Definitions All values not contained in Table 14 are reserved for future definition. At power on, or after a hardware reset, the default mode is the same as that represented by values greater than 80h. A setting of 66h allows settings of greater than 80h which may have been modified since power on to remain at the same setting after a software reset. A host can choose the transfer mechanism by Set Transfer Mode and specifying a value in the Sector Count register. The upper 5 bits define the type of transfer and the low order 3 bits encode the mode value. PIO Default Transfer Mode 00000 000 PIO Default Transfer Mode, Disable IORDY 00000 001 PIO Flow Control Transfer Mode x 00001 nnn Single Word DMA Mode x 00010 nnn Multiword DMA Mode x 00100 nnn Reserved 01000 nnn where "nnn" is a valid mode number for the associated transfer type. (Editor's note: It is intended that the reserved values be used for future specification of an alternative flow control mechanism.) If a device supports this specification, and receives a SET FEATURES command with a Set Transfer Mode parameter and a Sector Count register value of "00000 000", it shall set its default PIO transfer mode. If the value is "00000 001" and the device supports disabling of IORDY, then the device shall set its default PIO transfer mode and disable IORDY. See vendor specification for the default mode of the commands which are vendor specific. Devices reporting support for Multi Word DMA Transfer Mode 1 must also support Multi Word DMA Transfer Mode 0. Support of IORDY is mandatory when PIO Mode 3 is the current mode of operation. ERRORS - If the device does not support the command or if any input value is is not supported or is invalid, the device posts an Aborted Command error." and is referred to in the meeting notes prior to release of the 1996 standard in the context of being discontinued. In the 1994 standard, which is the main one I've been studying, the 8-bit mode is handled as just another feature. Clearly this is a standard feature, but I'm not comfortable that it was actually implemented as a standard. Any light that could be shed on this matter in specific terms, would be helpful. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Hans Franke To: Sent: Monday, April 17, 2000 7:24 AM Subject: Re: 8-bit IDE > > > Recently, as part of my effort on an S-100 "hard-card" using a 2-1/2 > > > inch ide drive, I've been revisiting the 1994 standard for the ATA > > > interface. There's a not-too-detailed mention of an 8-bit mode which is > > > set up using a bit in register. This feature was apparently obsoleted > > > as of 1996's standard. > > > It's actually not that hard to use a normal 16 bit IDE drive in an 8 bit > > system (like an S100 card). You need a few buffers/latches to convert > > between 8 and 16 bits on read/write, that's about it. > > > Actually, although it pains me to say this, IDE drives are so cheap per > > megabyte now that you could probably get away with wasting every other > > byte... Just use a 3-state buffer to always write the top 8 data lines as > > 0 (or FF or...) and ignore them on read. After all, people give away 1Gb > > IDE drives these days (or so I've heard), and 500M of storage (i.e. > > wasting every other byte) is massive for S100 systems. > > Quite an inriguing idea. You also will get 256 Byte records ... > a more common size back then. Well, what about commands etc. pp ? > > Gruss > H. > > -- > VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen > http://www.vintage.org/vcfe > http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 17 09:52:30 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE References: Message-ID: <001701bfa87c$8fe7afc0$0400c0a8@winbook> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, April 17, 2000 7:12 AM Subject: Re: 8-bit IDE > Took my existing 16bit interfaced IDE and wrote a pattern in sector 0, > head 0, cylinder 0 or 0->ffh repeatedly till I filled the sector. Then I > disabled the word translation logic, tried setting the bit in a read op > and I got 0,2,4,6.... didn't work. > > > > Well wishful thinking had me check it out using several 85-130mb drives > > > (quantum, Seagate, maxtor, WD) and none seem to do that. After all > > > having that would make the interface a no brainer and save a simple silo > > > for splitting read and writes. However, it was wishful thinking. > > > > > What??? > > I tried to interface using only 8bit data and using the 8-bit IO bit and > it didn't work. It was wishful thinking I could use it. > This has to be set up as a feature in the register setup when the interface is initialized. The unconditioned interface defaults to 16-bit mode. > > > I personally like the CMOS much better since it drives harder, and since it > > pulls and pushes with the same impedance, unlike TTL which sinks 16 and > > sources 1.6 mA. I've tried replacing all the bus interface buffers on my > > old S-100 cards with AC logic. In some cases I used HC or AHCT (SAMSUNG) > > I've seen latchup on busses that ring negative using HC and HCT parts. > I'd like the better drive but they would randomly flame on me due to the > bus ringing. Obviously loading the bus with terminators would solve this > but it's still something that worried me and made for a less robust card > for handling and ESD. > Latchup most frequently occurs when the device is able to draw power through its inputs before it can draw power through its power connections. That's been a recognized problem with CMOS for over 20 years and the correct way to avoid it is through proper design of system timing and power distribution and filtering. Often a resistor in series with the offending signal is required to delay the flow of current into the CMOS device's input. It is quite common in environments where the technology is mixed, i.e. TTL and CMOS hardware in the same circuit. I fix these problems by leaving out the TTL, LSTTL, STTL, etc and sticking with CMOS. CMOS is faster, easier on the power supply, and noise-immune. > > Allison > > From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Mon Apr 17 10:01:46 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: XXDP+ LL Formatter on RX50/RX33 Message-ID: <20000417.100147.-237967.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Guys: Has anybody ever ripped the Low Level formatter from the XXDP+ diskpack and put the needed components onto a floppy (of some sort)? I'm contemplating attempting to do this myself, but in case it's been done already, I'd just as soon as not re-invent the wheel. I'll need the formatter used with the RQDX3. BTW-- Anybody have the docs for the DSD-880? Info on this would be most appreciated. Jeff ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 17 11:33:06 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE In-Reply-To: <001101bfa87a$c2eaafa0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: > an answer to the question I've put forth. The 8-bit interface feature is > written in the purported ANSI standard for ATA interfacing, yet nobody seems > to have experience with it. I was hopeful that someone would know about > this. Very simply. I tried that and it's bogus! It does not work. Therefor expereince with it is limited to trying to make it work. It may be proposed and would be nice but it's a no-op as far as I can test it. > features as shown in table 14. > > +=====+=============================================================+ > | 01h | Enable 8-bit data transfers (see 6.2.5) | Allison From stuart at zen.co.uk Mon Apr 17 11:33:43 2000 From: stuart at zen.co.uk (Stuart Birchall) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: test post Message-ID: <002d01bfa88a$b5202840$120917d4@zen.co.uk> test Stuart Birchall ----------------------------------------- Network Consultant Zen Internet http://home.zen.co.uk Tel: 01706 713714 x 217 From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 17 11:35:56 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: XXDP+ LL Formatter on RX50/RX33 In-Reply-To: <20000417.100147.-237967.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: > Has anybody ever ripped the Low Level formatter > from the XXDP+ diskpack and put the needed components > onto a floppy (of some sort)? > > I'm contemplating attempting to do this myself, > but in case it's been done already, I'd just as > soon as not re-invent the wheel. It's doable. You need to create a bootable XXDP disk and copy the required formatter to it. not much more than that required. Allison From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Mon Apr 17 12:02:52 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: Marquette "MUSE"--DEC mini/file server circa 1986-88 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001bfa88e$c54662d0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> A friend of mine told me a while back that he had seen a thing called a 'Micro (or mini) Muse' a few years ago at a trade show. He said it was doing music synthesis and that it attracted quite a crowd. Could this be related? Sounds like the "macro" MUSE was doing AD/DA, such a thing could be used to make a synthesizer demo... Anybody? John A. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Apr 17 12:10:34 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE In-Reply-To: References: <001101bfa87a$c2eaafa0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <4.1.20000417100805.04395dd0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> I didn't follow this too closely but there were a couple of 8-bit IDE interface boards in terms of "ISA 8 bit" vs "ISA 16 bit". JDR used to sell one as an "upgrade" option for the XT and its ilk. However, it was only IDE (no EIDE) and generally some BIOSes couldn't boot from it (it had BIOS boot roms but not all systems (I think Leading Edge were a big problem here) actually used them.) Now as far as talking to a drive across the 40 pin cable in "8 bit mode", that I've no clue on. --Chuck At 12:33 PM 4/17/00 -0400, you wrote: >> an answer to the question I've put forth. The 8-bit interface feature is >> written in the purported ANSI standard for ATA interfacing, yet nobody seems >> to have experience with it. I was hopeful that someone would know about >> this. > >Very simply. I tried that and it's bogus! It does not work. Therefor >expereince with it is limited to trying to make it work. > >It may be proposed and would be nice but it's a no-op as far as I can test >it. > >> features as shown in table 14. >> >> +=====+=============================================================+ >> | 01h | Enable 8-bit data transfers (see 6.2.5) | > > >Allison > > From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Mon Apr 17 12:15:31 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: XXDP+ LL Formatter on RX50/RX33 Message-ID: <20000417.121531.-237967.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 12:35:56 -0400 (EDT) allisonp@world.std.com writes: > > Has anybody ever ripped the Low Level formatter > > from the XXDP+ diskpack and put the needed components > > onto a floppy (of some sort)? > > > > I'm contemplating attempting to do this myself, > > but in case it's been done already, I'd just as > > soon as not re-invent the wheel. > > It's doable. You need to create a bootable XXDP disk and copy the > required formatter to it. not much more than that required. I figured as much; I was just probing to see if anyone had already done it. BTW-- Are RL02's a maintainance nightmare? Do the advantages of these drives outweigh the problems (not to mention their *size*, or are they simply not worth it? Jeff ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 17 12:23:55 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE References: Message-ID: <003001bfa891$b5bf4a40$0400c0a8@winbook> What I see is the drives and memory devices growing and growing, with little more functionality in the software we use, yet with an order of magnitude increase in the size of the software every decade. Admittedly there are many improvements which, lumped together, spell progress. Nevertheless, I'm not excited about drifting too far out of the apropriate historical period with my own hardware. I've found that early S-100 (MITS, IMSAI, Processor Tech) hardware tends to play together better with its own generation rather than with later stuff. I've also found that middle-period (CCS, S.D. Sales, Cromemco, etc.) boards don't interoperate with early or late period stuff nearly as well as it should. The late stuff (Systems Group, IMS, and MANY others) doesn't seem to like early or middle period stuff. As a result, I like to keep these periods isolated. Note that I didn't mention GODBOUT/COMPUPRO in any of the above groups. I've found that their stuff doesn't even play well with other products from their own catalog. If you wanted it to play together, you had to buy what they wanted you to use together. I never learned to like that, so I only use their simplest stuff. Please see remarkes embedded below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, April 17, 2000 7:34 AM Subject: Re: 8-bit IDE > > > > > The really good thing about the latchless and bufferless interface to the > > 8-bit channel is also readily adaptable to a RAMDISK via the same channel. > > That's what makes me hope for the availability of the 8-bit mode as > > described in the ATA standard. Using LBA, it's possible to write a 24-bit > > sector address to a RAMDISK. An old 8-bit SIMM would do the job nicely. > > Been there done that. Current ramdisk is 8 1mx9 30 pin simms. I use > cas before ras refresh and a loadable autoincrement register for > transfers. Works just fine and using CMOS runs on 4 225mah nicads for > many days. > > > know how to exploit their features. In any case, in a system where I've got > > They are CPM, the difference is the internal logic for FCB to > sector/cylinder is 24-bit math rather than 16-bit truncated. They also > allow larger ALLOC sizes (up to 32k). > Is there a word or two missing in this paragraph? I'm not sure what it says. > > > Since it appears to be the consensus that all the doc's + all the software > > and such for CP/M 2.2 and earlier, take up less than 50 MB, a big drive in > > excess of 120 MB would make no sense at all. The Walnut creek CD has only > > True save for it's a flat directory. I've found that multiple partitions > each for C, pascal, basic, CPM and other things allow lots of space while > not filling the directory of any one. Doing that tends to eat space but > in the long run it's a easier work enviornment and easier to backup. > > > effort and with the certainty that you'll be out there all by yourself, to > > use a bigger drive, what's the point? I mentioned I had a 44MB drive back > > in the '80's and even though I had several copies of everything, it was > > never even close to half full. So, while I don't doubt that someone could > > Currently used 45mb SCSI is 65% full and it does not contain everything > I'd like on it. Keep in mind I tend to keep sources and executables > in the same space as well as docs. To make handling easier I expand all > files (no compression). The WC cdrom if expanded with grow greatly. > > > figure out a way to use a bigger drive rationally, I don't feel motivated to > > go out of my way. If the pico-drives I already have will work in 8-bit > > mode, then the code I already have will work to operate them. If not, I'll > > Keep in mind I don't mount every partition in the house. I have a mount > utility that will "attach" a partition to a drive name so that I don't > have to have 12 drives. The savings in ALLOC space in considerable. > > > The two 2-1/2" IDE drives I've got for this hard-card thing are both 250 MB, > > look in the standards, since IBM doesn't have them on their site. These are > > 120 MB in size. > > Well going to the enhanced BDOS will make logical drives bigger. Using a > utility to mount only the partitions you need will save AOLLOC space. > > Been doing that for 18+ years (mount utility) and nominally run a 56-60k > tpa. > That seems remarkably un-CP/M-like, but quite practical, provided the OS is able to mount/dismount a drive as part of a ^C. Otherwise, you have to have a directory of directories on line so you can automatically dismount one drive and mount another between reads and writes. Perhaps you could tell me how it works when you copy between two drives at least one of which is not currently logged. We should take that off the list, though. > > > The standard v2.2 CP/M doesn't like logical drives (partitions) bigger than > > 64K 128-byte sectors. That's 8192 KB. What I'm after is something that > > will paste easily into a pretty standard CP/M 2.2. All the other > > Check the enhanced BDOS, they (all of them) are on the WC cdrom and > SIMTEL. Not the real fix for larger logical drives and larger addressable > disks is correcting the truncation that occurs in the bdos. This is a > limitation of how the math was done and though there was a 24-bit workspace > all numbers were truncated to 16bit in the 8080 version likely due to the > forseeable limits of the time. So you still have the 65535 allocation > block limit (65535*16384=1gb) for the logical drive and a 262144 sector > limit (32mb) for logical files and the FCB is unaffected. Note that some > programs will internally bounds check and quite before you hit those > limits. This still doesn't fix the fact that ALLOC space is 1bit per > allocation block and that gets big real fast. > I'd certainly like to know more about this, but for now, I'm promarily focused on finding out what the story on the standard approach to forcing 8-bit mode on the IDE interface is. > > The other fix is to bank the bios and use a common area in high memory. > then space is less a concern. A mix of both is the hot setup. > Well, I've still got a bit of work ahead of me to find out precisely how these enhanced BDOS thingies expect to communicate with memory outside the normal/default 64K memory space. I've got to do all this in a way that works with an 8080/8085. I'd also like to do it in a way that works with nearly all physical mapping strategies without a major rewrite. If "extended" memory addressing is a realistic option, I could go for the CP/M-3 approach to putting the BIOS in the "extended" region. > > > whatever-dos will have to be demonstrated working properly and properly > > documented as well before I'll be interested. > > Well it's old news. > One reason I rejected some of the approches to memory management and large storage management was that there was no reasonable documentation, nor was there a reasonable hope of any standardization. Maybe the doc's finally caught up with the realities. > > Allison > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 17 12:26:28 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE References: Message-ID: <003801bfa892$11409540$0400c0a8@winbook> Do you mean you checked the standard and subsequently fiddled with the software so it set the mode to 8-bit? That's part of what I wanted to establish. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, April 17, 2000 10:33 AM Subject: Re: 8-bit IDE > > an answer to the question I've put forth. The 8-bit interface feature is > > written in the purported ANSI standard for ATA interfacing, yet nobody seems > > to have experience with it. I was hopeful that someone would know about > > this. > > Very simply. I tried that and it's bogus! It does not work. Therefor > expereince with it is limited to trying to make it work. > > It may be proposed and would be nice but it's a no-op as far as I can test > it. > > > features as shown in table 14. > > > > +=====+=============================================================+ > > | 01h | Enable 8-bit data transfers (see 6.2.5) | > > > Allison > > From cmcmanis at freegate.com Mon Apr 17 12:40:38 2000 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: RRD40 terminator? Message-ID: <4.1.20000417103614.00a6da60@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Hello all, I've got an interface to an RRD40 in my VAX called a KRQ50 and it has two "ports". One connects to the RRD40 with a 15 pin or so cable, the other, I don't know. Then in the box of stuff that went with this is a terminator (green LED on the back) with the same D-shell connector as the RRD40. So I'm trying to figure out whether or not they went together. I've never seen such a terminator before. --Chuck From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 17 12:38:47 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE References: <001101bfa87a$c2eaafa0$0400c0a8@winbook> <4.1.20000417100805.04395dd0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <005001bfa893$c9cedee0$0400c0a8@winbook> I've gotten little information from the drive makers so far, regarding how extensively this feature was pursued in the drives. The intefaces certainly existed, and, if you built an 8-bit interface on the ISA, the motherboard hardware would steer the bytes correctly for you so the software essentially was the same, though it talked in 16-bit mode to the drive channel. The assertion that the standard provides for an 8-bit mode is not in dispute. >From where I sit, one should be able to condition the interface during setup to function in 8-bit mode and then, when the data channel is accessed, the interface should NOT assert the IOCS- signal when accessed. I've yet to try this, but it seems reasonable. I'll probably get to it later in the week. It's tax week, after all. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck McManis To: Sent: Monday, April 17, 2000 11:10 AM Subject: Re: 8-bit IDE > I didn't follow this too closely but there were a couple of 8-bit IDE > interface boards in terms of "ISA 8 bit" vs "ISA 16 bit". JDR used to sell > one as an "upgrade" option for the XT and its ilk. However, it was only IDE > (no EIDE) and generally some BIOSes couldn't boot from it (it had BIOS boot > roms but not all systems (I think Leading Edge were a big problem here) > actually used them.) > > Now as far as talking to a drive across the 40 pin cable in "8 bit mode", > that I've no clue on. > > --Chuck > > At 12:33 PM 4/17/00 -0400, you wrote: > >> an answer to the question I've put forth. The 8-bit interface feature is > >> written in the purported ANSI standard for ATA interfacing, yet nobody seems > >> to have experience with it. I was hopeful that someone would know about > >> this. > > > >Very simply. I tried that and it's bogus! It does not work. Therefor > >expereince with it is limited to trying to make it work. > > > >It may be proposed and would be nice but it's a no-op as far as I can test > >it. > > > >> features as shown in table 14. > >> > >> +=====+=============================================================+ > >> | 01h | Enable 8-bit data transfers (see 6.2.5) | > > > > > >Allison > > > > > From bobstek at ix.netcom.com Mon Apr 17 12:43:57 2000 From: bobstek at ix.netcom.com (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: Marquette "MUSE"--DEC mini/file server circa 1986-88 In-Reply-To: <000001bfa88e$c54662d0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: I have one of the original Triadex Muses's - obviously quite different from the DEC unit. A description of it from Hal Chamberlin's book The Musical Applications of Microprocessors THE MUSE (as described in Hal Chamberlin's Book) Thirty-eight different digital signals are generated by several counter stages and a 31-stage shift register. These signals, along with constants 0 and 1, are connected to 40 signal rows. Eight 40-position slide switches, divided into two groups of four, act as columns and can connect to any individual row signal. Four of these switches, which are called THEME controls feed a parity generator, whose output feeds the 31-position shift register. The other four switches, designated INTERVAL controls, are connected through some translation logic to a 5-bit DAC, which drives a VCO tone generator. The VCO and DAC are adjusted so that the step size is a semitone on the equi-tempered scale. The translation logic converts its 4-bit input into 5-bit output according to the conventions of the major musical scale. An adjustable low-frequency oscillator clocks the counters and shift register. The rows driven by the counters and constants 0 and 1 are designated as the "C" (counter) region. Five of these rows are connected to a simple 5-bit counter, while two more connect to a divide-by-6 and a divide-by-12 counter. The outputs of the various counts are normally used for short, highly ordered, sequences. For example: if the "A" switch is set to row "C1", B to C2, C to C4 etc., the device will generate an ascending major scale. Essentially, a binary counter has been connected to the DAC, which would be expected to generate an ascending staircase waveform. If switch A is moved to the C? position, the scale will still ascend, but by alternate intervals of one note and three notes. Moving D and B back to the OFF position (contant 0 row), results in a pair of trills: C-D-C-D-G-A-G-A-C-D... Many other combinations, opf course, are possible, but the sequence length will never be more than 64 notes using the C6 row, or 32 notes otherwise. The 31 rows in the "B" (binary) region are driven by the 31-stage shift register, which shifts downwards from row 1 to 2 to 3 etc. The four THEME switches are used to control the shift register by determining what will be shifted into the register's first stage input. If they are set in the C region, then the register acts merely as a delay line. This can be useful in creating canon effects. However, if one or more are set in the B region, then a feedback path into the shift register is created and complex sequences can result. One possibility is to set the THEME switches for a complex sequence, set three of the INTERVAL switches in the C region for a repetitive tone pattern, and set the fourth somewhere in the B region. The result is that the repetitive pattern is modified according to the shift register pattern. The number of unique combinations is, for all practical purposes, infinite. There are two software simulations available - sorry, don't have the URL's anymore - ANKLUND and Muse11. Muse 11 is quite good - I haven't tried ANKLUND. It's a fun thing to play around with - came out in the early 70's I think, so it's quite on-topic. Noteworthy (pun intended) is that one of the creators of the original Muse was that-famous-AI-guy-at-MIT (damn, I gotta get my memory refresh rate increased again!) Bob Stek Saver of Lost SOLs -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of John Allain Sent: Monday, April 17, 2000 1:03 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Marquette "MUSE"--DEC mini/file server circa 1986-88 A friend of mine told me a while back that he had seen a thing called a 'Micro (or mini) Muse' a few years ago at a trade show. He said it was doing music synthesis and that it attracted quite a crowd. Could this be related? Sounds like the "macro" MUSE was doing AD/DA, such a thing could be used to make a synthesizer demo... Anybody? John A. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Apr 17 12:48:34 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: XXDP+ LL Formatter on RX50/RX33 Message-ID: <000417134834.202006bd@trailing-edge.com> >> > I'm contemplating attempting to do this myself, >> > but in case it's been done already, I'd just as >> > soon as not re-invent the wheel. >> >> It's doable. You need to create a bootable XXDP disk and copy the >> required formatter to it. not much more than that required. >I figured as much; I was just probing to see if anyone had already >done it. Sure. Do you just want the RQDX3 utilities on it? Up until a year or two ago, DEC would sell you a subset of XXDP on RX50's that included the things commonly used on Micro-PDP's. They don't have any RX50's left in inventory, though. >BTW-- Are RL02's a maintainance nightmare? Do the advantages >of these drives outweigh the problems (not to mention their *size*, >or are they simply not worth it? RL02's are, IMHO, the most reliable of all the 14" removable cartridge drives. The embedded servo design means that absolute positioning alignment does't have to be done. (Though the relative alignment of the two heads does matter somewhat.) The head flies pretty high over the platter, so crashes are rare. I know one site that ran a bunch of RL01's (mechanically very similar) continuously for twenty years before upgrading to RL02's, and the only problems they had were the spindle bearings wearing out. And they aren't very big or heavy either. They're less than 70 lbs each, so they're easy to move around. The big Massbus drives, those are a different story. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Mon Apr 17 12:51:06 2000 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: RRD40 terminator? In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000417103614.00a6da60@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from Chuck McManis at "Apr 17, 2000 10:40:38 am" Message-ID: <20000417175124Z433385-23626+199@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > Hello all, I've got an interface to an RRD40 in my VAX called a KRQ50 and > it has two "ports". One connects to the RRD40 with a 15 pin or so cable, > the other, I don't know. Then in the box of stuff that went with this is a > terminator (green LED on the back) with the same D-shell connector as the > RRD40. So I'm trying to figure out whether or not they went together. I've > never seen such a terminator before. > Its a SCSI terminator and it goes with the RRD40. If the RRD40 is the only device on the SCSI bus you will probably need to use it. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon Apr 17 12:52:08 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: RRD40 terminator? In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000417103614.00a6da60@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000417105208.00937bf0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 10:40 17-04-2000 -0700, you wrote: >the other, I don't know. Then in the box of stuff that went with this is a The KRQ50 can support two drives. That port is for a second drive. >terminator (green LED on the back) with the same D-shell connector as the >RRD40. So I'm trying to figure out whether or not they went together. I've >never seen such a terminator before. Actually, that's not a terminator. None is required for the KRQ50 controller. What you have there is an Ethernet (AUI) loopback plug. ;-) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 17 13:08:05 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:49 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE In-Reply-To: <003001bfa891$b5bf4a40$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: > > They are CPM, the difference is the internal logic for FCB to > > sector/cylinder is 24-bit math rather than 16-bit truncated. They also > > allow larger ALLOC sizes (up to 32k). > > > Is there a word or two missing in this paragraph? I'm not sure what it > says. What is saying is Novados and Suprbdos are improved version of cpm v2.2 bdos with 24bit math rather than truncated 16bit math. In addition to that large (jumbo) allocation block sizes of 232k are allowed. > > > > Been doing that for 18+ years (mount utility) and nominally run a 56-60k > > tpa. > > > That seems remarkably un-CP/M-like, but quite practical, provided the OS is > able to mount/dismount a drive as part of a ^C. Otherwise, you have to have It can. the mount utilitiy messes with the DPB and DPH then does a warmboot. CPM (the bdos that is) really doesn't care what the bios does so long as the interface is by the book. This is a very CP/M way to do things. I didn't invent it. > a directory of directories on line so you can automatically dismount one > drive and mount another between reads and writes. Perhaps you could tell > me how it works when you copy between two drives at least one of which is > not currently logged. We should take that off the list, though. Huh? The drives you would be copying from are "mounted" before use. There is no on the fly mount/dismount. > I'd certainly like to know more about this, but for now, I'm promarily > focused on finding out what the story on the standard approach to forcing > 8-bit mode on the IDE interface is. Praying to the gods that some manufactuere implemted it. > Well, I've still got a bit of work ahead of me to find out precisely how > these enhanced BDOS thingies expect to communicate with memory outside the > normal/default 64K memory space. I've got to do all this in a way that > works with an 8080/8085. I'd also like to do it in a way that works with well the easy way is make the top 2k (or 4k) COMMON space so both memory maps and communicate through that. if you really look at the bios You will find only the stuff accessable through the jumptable has to be in current page ram relative to the BDOS, the rest can be literally anywhere even on a different cpu accessed over a serial line! the other approach often used was map ram to low memeory such that CPM(entirely) was in high ram and if it needed workspace you would enable 16k starting at 0000 and work there. This was usually combined with boot rom mapping so that you boot from rom at 0000, copy OS to high ram, then enable common ram and run there. If you needed space you enable a fixed size block into low space for scratch use. Of course if you crazy like I was you can have only 64k of ram and copy out sections to disk (or ramdisk) as swapping then when your done swap it back. Better have fast DMA for that or it gets real slow. it was an effective way in 1980-81 to fit stuff into the 64k space without killing the TPA or using a memory mapper. in that system the "ramdisk" was only 16k (memory was not cheap then) but it worked. Of course the 8080/8085 limits you more and the enhanced BDOSes out there didn't support them. To pack the improved code into the "standard" space a z80 was a must. > nearly all physical mapping strategies without a major rewrite. If > "extended" memory addressing is a realistic option, I could go for the > CP/M-3 approach to putting the BIOS in the "extended" region. You can but that was more involved. > One reason I rejected some of the approches to memory management and large > storage management was that there was no reasonable documentation, nor was > there a reasonable hope of any standardization. Maybe the doc's finally > caught up with the realities. somewhat and limited. You either live in 64k and take the TPA hit or implement in a non compatable but in a way that can easily move to a different platform. There were only few different schemes for open bus systems. some of the closed bus systems did similar things but they are already implmented. Keep in mind by 1983 systems with 128-256k and z80 were common and allowed all manner of options for bios mapping. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 17 13:10:30 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE In-Reply-To: <003801bfa892$11409540$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Apr 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Do you mean you checked the standard and subsequently fiddled with the > software so it set the mode to 8-bit? That's part of what I wanted to > establish. How would I know the 8bit mode where there otherwise? the books (standard) said it was there, didn't work as advertized. I suspected it was optional. Allison From jpl15 at netcom.com Mon Apr 17 13:12:17 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: Marquette "MUSE"--DEC mini/file server circa 1986-88 In-Reply-To: <000001bfa88e$c54662d0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Apr 2000, John Allain wrote: > > A friend of mine told me a while back that he had seen > a thing called a 'Micro (or mini) Muse' a few years ago > at a trade show. He said it was doing music synthesis > and that it attracted quite a crowd. The 'Muse' that you describe was basically a free-running sequencer driving a very basic set of analog ADSR-type synth circuits. It had a good amount of variable feedback paths to it's counters, all adjustable via front panel matrix switches and a few controls... it would then sit there and produce harmonically constrained tone patterns and chords according to the setting chosen. It made some really pretty sequences from time to time, but on the whole it got a bit boring. Kewl little toy though; I wish I'd had the foresight to buy one for my Vintage Electronic Musical Instrument Managerie. Cheers John From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Mon Apr 17 13:28:32 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: Marquette "MUSE"--DEC mini/file server circa 1986-88 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000301bfa89a$bcd2ba20$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Bob Stek said: ...Triadex Muses's Interesting, still reading. ...Hal Chamberlin's Book Same guy as the Chamberlin Synthesizer? ...that-famous-AI-guy-at-MIT John McCarthy? From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 17 13:33:04 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE References: Message-ID: <006601bfa89b$5f357780$0400c0a8@winbook> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, April 17, 2000 12:10 PM Subject: Re: 8-bit IDE > On Mon, 17 Apr 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Do you mean you checked the standard and subsequently fiddled with the > > software so it set the mode to 8-bit? That's part of what I wanted to > > establish. > > How would I know the 8-bit mode was there otherwise? the books > (standard) said it was there, didn't work as advertized. I suspected > it was optional. > It was optional after the 1996 standard became the norm. I'm just not certain any mfg actually put it in his drives after '91. I would like to avoid having to check each drive individually, but if I do, I'll just put a "fixture" in one of my S-100 boxes and run a test there. There's physical room for a SCSI, WD100x-05, and an 8-bit IDE on the 12 x 40 hole wirewrap layout on the card I'm using. IF I can find two or three drives that work in 8-bit mode, that will be enough. They want to be thin 2-1/2" drives, though, else they'll stick too far out from the board. From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Mon Apr 17 13:37:21 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: XXDP+ LL Formatter on RX50/RX33 In-Reply-To: <20000417.121531.-237967.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com>; from jeff.kaneko@juno.com on Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 12:15:31PM -0500 References: <20000417.121531.-237967.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <20000417143721.A1132@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 12:15:31PM -0500, Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > I figured as much; I was just probing to see if anyone had already > done it. I haven't tried it, but it ought to be quick work under E11, just mount the RL02 image as a DL: and put an RX50 in a 1.2 MB drive mounted as a DU:, and do the usual procedure (used to be done by UPD2 but maybe things have changed?) to copy the system onto the DU:, then copy ZRQC?? there and bring the floppy to the real machine. > BTW-- Are RL02's a maintainance nightmare? Do the advantages > of these drives outweigh the problems (not to mention their *size*, > or are they simply not worth it? They're wonderful, I've been running them for ages with almost no trouble, just one bad spindle bearing and that was on a drive where I got behind on replacing air filters (dunno if it that's a coincidence). I hope the filters are still made, last time I bought a bunch they (P/N 12-13097-00) were only $15 from DEC instead of the usual ~$50, when that happens to something it usually means they're about to discontinue it. Anyway RL01/02s have given me the least trouble of any DEC drive model I've had. They're a pain to program, but they're well made so it's worth it for sure. John Wilson D Bit From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Apr 17 14:45:00 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: XXDP+ LL Formatter on RX50/RX33 In-Reply-To: Jeffrey l Kaneko "Re: XXDP+ LL Formatter on RX50/RX33" (Apr 17, 12:15) References: <20000417.121531.-237967.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <10004172045.ZM2431@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 17, 12:15, Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 12:35:56 -0400 (EDT) allisonp@world.std.com writes: > > > Has anybody ever ripped the Low Level formatter > > > from the XXDP+ diskpack and put the needed components > > > onto a floppy (of some sort)? [...] > > It's doable. You need to create a bootable XXDP disk and copy the > > required formatter to it. not much more than that required. > > I figured as much; I was just probing to see if anyone had already > done it. Yes, DEC did: ZY003P3 Field Service Tests disks for the microPDP-11 series, contains 4 Field Service Test RX50's (CZXDnB0 where n = 1...4) and a CZUFB1 disk which has the monitor, menu, help text, UPD2 and assorted tests including ZRQA?? and ZRQC?? I've also got a pair of rather later XXDP 2 disks from 11/53 systems, which have XXDPXM, XXDPSM, DRSXM, DRSSM, DIR, assorted drivers, UPDAT, XTECO, DXCL, SETUP, HELP. One disk also has ZRQA??..ZRQF?? and the other has VDHA??..VDHE??, VMSA??, ZTKA?? and ZTKB?? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Mon Apr 17 14:56:02 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE In-Reply-To: <006601bfa89b$5f357780$0400c0a8@winbook>; from edick@idcomm.com on Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 12:33:04PM -0600 References: <006601bfa89b$5f357780$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <20000417155602.A1447@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 12:33:04PM -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: > There's physical room for a SCSI, WD100x-05, and an 8-bit IDE on the 12 x 40 > hole wirewrap layout on the card I'm using. IF I can find two or three > drives that work in 8-bit mode, that will be enough. They want to be thin > 2-1/2" drives, though, else they'll stick too far out from the board. Just stating the obvious: the 2.5" 44-pin connector uses a 2mm metric grid, so if your WW area uses a regular 2.54mm grid it'll need some drilling. John Wilson D Bit From bobstek at ix.netcom.com Mon Apr 17 16:07:33 2000 From: bobstek at ix.netcom.com (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: Marquette "MUSE"--DEC mini/file server circa 1986-88 In-Reply-To: <000301bfa89a$bcd2ba20$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: > Bob Stek said: > > ...Triadex Muses's > Interesting, still reading. > Try http://richter.simplenet.com/muse.html > ...Hal Chamberlin's Book > Same guy as the Chamberlin Synthesizer? > don't know, but wouldn't be surprised. > ...that-famous-AI-guy-at-MIT > John McCarthy? > Marvin Minsky Bob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 17 15:27:12 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: Lubing Shugart 800,801's? In-Reply-To: <20000417051439.29302.qmail@web617.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 16, 0 10:14:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 979 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000417/47ad3fd8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 17 15:32:01 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE In-Reply-To: <200004171224.e3HCOpS05988@mail2.siemens.de> from "Hans Franke" at Apr 17, 0 02:24:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 935 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000417/ff179b3f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 17 15:36:31 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: XXDP+ LL Formatter on RX50/RX33 In-Reply-To: <20000417.121531.-237967.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> from "Jeffrey l Kaneko" at Apr 17, 0 12:15:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 659 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000417/80a823c7/attachment.ksh From sipke at wxs.nl Mon Apr 17 17:14:48 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE References: <006601bfa89b$5f357780$0400c0a8@winbook> <20000417155602.A1447@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <011001bfa8ba$596a8600$030101ac@boll.casema.net> I've seen straight IDE 40pin to 44pin adaptors (the power leads being separated out) So using a standard header an 40pins flatcable to te adaptor might solve that problem. I had them with a 2.5" to 3.5" slidemount but the adaptor was kinda removable. I don't think i still have it but they do exist out there. Sipke ----- Original Message ----- From: John Wilson To: Sent: Monday, April 17, 2000 9:56 PM Subject: Re: 8-bit IDE > On Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 12:33:04PM -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > There's physical room for a SCSI, WD100x-05, and an 8-bit IDE on the 12 x 40 > > hole wirewrap layout on the card I'm using. IF I can find two or three > > drives that work in 8-bit mode, that will be enough. They want to be thin > > 2-1/2" drives, though, else they'll stick too far out from the board. > > Just stating the obvious: the 2.5" 44-pin connector uses a 2mm metric > grid, so if your WW area uses a regular 2.54mm grid it'll need some drilling. > > John Wilson > D Bit From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 17 16:20:41 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE References: <006601bfa89b$5f357780$0400c0a8@winbook> <20000417155602.A1447@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <007201bfa8b2$c93c98e0$0400c0a8@winbook> ----- Original Message ----- From: John Wilson To: Sent: Monday, April 17, 2000 1:56 PM Subject: Re: 8-bit IDE > On Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 12:33:04PM -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > There's physical room for a SCSI, WD100x-05, and an 8-bit IDE on the 12 x 40 > > hole wirewrap layout on the card I'm using. IF I can find two or three > > drives that work in 8-bit mode, that will be enough. They want to be thin > > 2-1/2" drives, though, else they'll stick too far out from the board. > > Just stating the obvious: the 2.5" 44-pin connector uses a 2mm metric > grid, so if your WW area uses a regular 2.54mm grid it'll need some drilling. > Yes, it surely is the obvious. I have a couple of adapters from standard 40-conductor IDE cable + Power to 2.5" standard 44-conductor 2mm connector. I shortened it from about 3" length with two IDE cables to about 1/2" with a single IDE cable such that it can fit directly into one of the two wirewrap areas. Coincidentally, the cable connector points downward, thereby allowing the adapter to be soldered into the wirewrap area with the pins protruding onto the wiring side of the board. This enables me to attach power directly to the adapter and attach signals there as well. This also permits me to install a normal cable adapter in the other wirewrap area, which is close to the top of the board, thereby giving me a place for the standard IDE cable so it can be brought to where the drive sits. This then is wired in parallel with the adapter's 40-conductor connector, thereby producing the signals to the 44-pin 2.5"disk drive connector. That then requires NO DRILLING. (I hate drilling!) If I decide to build a 16-bit IDE interface channel, I'll build it on a proper wirewrap board rather than trying to use this bare board. Dick > > John Wilson > D Bit From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Apr 17 18:42:09 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: Lubing Shugart 800,801's? In-Reply-To: References: <20000417051439.29302.qmail@web617.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000417184209.359722ec@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 09:27 PM 4/17/00 +0100, Tony said: > >What a pity that these drives are not officially repairable units. >They're so easy to work on. I usually find that ease of being able to repair something has nothing to do with weather of not the item is offically repairable. Joe From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Mon Apr 17 16:09:33 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: Acorn A4 website? References: <009a01bf9d88$10648740$d59593c3@proteus> <10004031823.ZM28019@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <010401bfa8be$5c28e5e0$8ce993c3@proteus> Hi Pete, >> It's a nice machine, but of little use with nothing but the OS >>installed. :-( > True :-) I've possibly got things that you might have a use for. It >depends on what you're interested, obviously. What would you like to do? Initially, the main things I'm interested in are learning about the system architecture and getting an assembler for it so I can try out ARM assembly language. > Is there any extra hardware (I expect not much, as an A4000 is >baically an A3000 re-boxed)? Nope, I have what appears to be a standard, unexpanded machine (AFAIK, I don't have ANY documentation whatsoever). TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Mon Apr 17 16:20:23 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: Nuke Redmond! References: <004c01bfa417$6ac85460$7464c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <010501bfa8be$5cf9f180$8ce993c3@proteus> Hi, > Between technet Cdroms and microsoft press I have far more info >about NT3.51 then I can possible use.... >....it's so convoluted and random as to be useless. I wonder why we never had access to this stuff at work, I'm sure it would've been of some help. As it was, whenever we had a problem with a system which we couldn't fix in 20 minutes or so we'd just format the hard drive and re-install windows from scratch. :-( >>....Win2K test installation, OTOH, came in at well over 600Mb.... > True, and all the bugs too! Thats why I went with NT4, it's finally >mature. Yes, I'd be using NT4 myself except that I cannot run DVE (Vectrex emulator) under it. I haven't tried it under Win2K Professional yet, but I'm none too hopeful. One thing I will say about Win2K is that it seems to be far more stable than any other M$ OS on my hardware thus far. NT4 was giving me memory faults when running OE5, Win95 is flaky at best and Win98 wouldn't run for more than 4 or 5 minutes without "freezing" up completely. Sigh. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Mon Apr 17 16:29:07 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: Lubing Shugart 800,801's? References: Message-ID: <010601bfa8be$5dbbbae0$8ce993c3@proteus> Hi Tony, > There are 2 main flavours of such drives.... > The later drive is about the same size as a normal PC 3.5" drive >and has a 34 pin connector, the pinout of which is _similar_ to normal >PC drives. Sometimes the power is carried over this connector.... Do you know where I can find the pinout of these drives? I have a few such drives which came with my Xens, your earlier mention of them being able to operate on 8" floppy controllers makes me wonder about using them with my Interak. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Mon Apr 17 17:35:56 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: CPU upgrades, pt. II References: Message-ID: <010801bfa8be$5fb1be80$8ce993c3@proteus> Hi, >....plus, the hard drive has bus attachment with only 160meg >size being the biggest i've seen. Any idea where I can find one of these IBM ESDI drives, the one from my Model 50 is missing and I want to restore the machine to it's original configuration? TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Mon Apr 17 17:31:17 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: CPU upgrades, pt. II References: <001a01bfa682$1a9d9f00$7964c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <010701bfa8be$5eb78000$8ce993c3@proteus> Hi, > Heres a PS2/50z question. > > Mine only has 1meg, looks like 72pin simm but none I have seem >work. All of them happen to be 8x32 (16chip). I don't really know too much about PS/2s yet, I'm only just starting to investigate these machines (I've got 3 - a Model 50, a Model 80 and a Model 95). > There is only one SIMM socket. What is the limit for ram (max)? >Where can I get something bigger than 1mb? Interesting, my Model 50 has a pair of SIMM sockets on the planar. They look more like 30-pin SIMMs than 72-pin ones, but I haven't taken them out to check yet. Also, I've never seen SIMMs like these before - the PCB is a brown/beige colour, and the RAM chips are in small silver "cans" rather than the usual black epoxy. Anyway, I suspect you'll find that the limit for RAM (on the motherboard/planar/whateveryouwanttocallit) will be 2Mb. IBM used to make these wierd, double sided, 2Mb 72-pin SIMMs specifically for some models in the PS/2 family. I remember these SIMMs distinctly since around 10 years ago they used to sell for practically nothing on FidoNet as they were of no use whatsoever in anything but a PS/2. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Mon Apr 17 17:42:27 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: Creative/Panasonic interface spec. Message-ID: <010901bfa8be$606a6020$8ce993c3@proteus> As an aside to the 8-bit IDE thread, I was wondering whether anyone knew where I could find the specification for the Matsushita CD-ROM interface used on Panasonic and Creative Labs drives? I have a "CR-562-B" I'd like to interface to a non-PC machine you see.... TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 17 16:48:30 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE Message-ID: <001201bfa8b6$c6f4a7e0$7264c0d0@ajp166> >I seem to remember that the IDE standard that I read said that the >command/status registers were all 8 bits (and mapped to the lower 8 data >lines). Only the data register was 16 bits, and the drive would assert >I/OCS16 when that was accessed and at no other time. Of course I have no >idea how modern drives handle this... This is still true for all the ones I've worked with (up to 528mb). Based on how the larger ones work in older systems they should be identical. The emulation is supposed to be WD1003 controller and based on the work I've done with them it rings true. This is why every 8bit system example you see the data path is folded somehow to 8bits. While reading the spec I discovered that Set_IO_8bit command and did a, Wow this will help. Never could make it do what is written in the spec. I suspect the drive never read the spec. If it worked I'm sure the 8bit community like those that did the GIDE, COCO IDE and others would have jumped on that. Allison From oliv555 at arrl.net Mon Apr 17 18:06:58 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: XXDP+ LL Formatter on RX50/RX33 References: <20000417.121531.-237967.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <38FB9912.B4AAB1EF@arrl.net> Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > BTW-- Are RL02's a maintainance nightmare? Do the advantages > of these drives outweigh the problems (not to mention their *size*, > or are they simply not worth it? I'll second Tony's comments re:maintenance&alignment. We've had two RL01's running on a 11/23 since 1980 and one RL02 on a 11/45 since 1991 and I can recall just one head crash in all that time. I'm no longer on the maintenance side, but I don't believe anyones changed the filters in the last 5 years. (I am not recommending this aproach) On the flip side, we've got dead RK05's and RA60's lying all over the place. Nick From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Apr 17 18:09:20 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: Sharp PC1211 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000417184209.359722ec@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <20000417051439.29302.qmail@web617.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I did some checking and my TRS 80 pocket computer looks exactly like the Sharp PC1211. http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum/machines/SharpPC1211.html From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 17 18:18:28 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE References: Message-ID: <008e01bfa8c3$3db93420$0400c0a8@winbook> Tony, your bracketed heading says it all! I'm NOT trying to "fake" 8-bit I/O on the IDE interface. The published standards specify a valid 8-bit data transfer mode for the data port (the other ports are already 8-bit). This is described rather minimally in chapter 6 wherein the registers are defined. There's an 8-bit enable bit which, when properly conditioned, will cause the data port interface to transfer 512 bytes as bytes rather than as 256 words. There are LOTS of ways to "fake" it, but I'm trying to determine whether anyone has actually operated an IDE interface normally used in 16-bit mode in this obscure and, possibly, scantily supported mode. I know bigger drives are cheap. I just bought a 15 GB DRIVE for $99 yesterday. One of my colleagues just had someone ship him a new 20GB drive in place of a 13.2 GB drive, which is what he ordered, charging him only $100 for the drive they shipped because they'd sold out of 13 GB drives. I agree, these drives are cheap. What I want is information from people who've actually read the standard and attempted to use a normally 16-bit drive in 8-bit mode. This is not particularly easy with the existing hardware. I'll be surprised if anyone has built interface hardware that is actually capable of this. It's possible, though. You seem to have a good grasp of what some of the IDE signals do. I'd be willing to believe that the interface will not assert IOCS16- if the drive's interface is programmed to operate in 8-bit mode. I would expect that if I initialize that interface in a 16-bit-capable interface, I'll see the IOCS16- go away. Unfortunately, the vast majority of the old TTL MSI-implemented IDE channels don't have the means to operate in that mode. They hardly have need, however. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Monday, April 17, 2000 2:32 PM Subject: Re: 8-bit IDE > [faking 8 bit IDE] > > > > Actually, although it pains me to say this, IDE drives are so cheap per > > > megabyte now that you could probably get away with wasting every other > > > byte... Just use a 3-state buffer to always write the top 8 data lines as > > > 0 (or FF or...) and ignore them on read. After all, people give away 1Gb > > > IDE drives these days (or so I've heard), and 500M of storage (i.e. > > > wasting every other byte) is massive for S100 systems. > > > > Quite an inriguing idea. You also will get 256 Byte records ... > > a more common size back then. Well, what about commands etc. pp ? > > I seem to remember that the IDE standard that I read said that the > command/status registers were all 8 bits (and mapped to the lower 8 data > lines). Only the data register was 16 bits, and the drive would assert > I/OCS16 when that was accessed and at no other time. Of course I have no > idea how modern drives handle this... > > -tony > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 17 18:24:12 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE References: <001201bfa8b6$c6f4a7e0$7264c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <00a001bfa8c4$0a98b6a0$0400c0a8@winbook> I corresponded with Tilmann Reh, the author of the GIDE, and from his reaction, which gave no indication that he'd seen the 8-bit mode in his spec, though I used the same version as he, suggests that while it might exist in the spec, it may not have seem many real implementations. The coding, unfortunately, is not similar enough to the 1003-wah to make the code directly portable, but there are simply more registers in the IDE. I hate to face the fact, but I'll probably end up latching the data and build the words . . . Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: allisonp To: Sent: Monday, April 17, 2000 3:48 PM Subject: Re: 8-bit IDE > >I seem to remember that the IDE standard that I read said that the > >command/status registers were all 8 bits (and mapped to the lower 8 data > >lines). Only the data register was 16 bits, and the drive would assert > >I/OCS16 when that was accessed and at no other time. Of course I have no > >idea how modern drives handle this... > > > This is still true for all the ones I've worked with (up to 528mb). Based > on how the larger ones work in older systems they should be identical. The > emulation is supposed to be WD1003 controller and based on the work I've > done with them > it rings true. This is why every 8bit system example you see the data path > is folded somehow to 8bits. > > While reading the spec I discovered that Set_IO_8bit command and did a, > Wow this will help. Never could make it do what is written in the spec. I > suspect the drive never read the spec. If it worked I'm sure the 8bit > community > like those that did the GIDE, COCO IDE and others would have jumped on that. > > Allison > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 17 18:18:19 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: Lubing Shugart 800,801's? In-Reply-To: <010601bfa8be$5dbbbae0$8ce993c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Apr 17, 0 10:29:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2119 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000418/0f6dc75b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 17 18:20:21 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: Lubing Shugart 800,801's? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000417184209.359722ec@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Apr 17, 0 06:42:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 681 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000418/b0a93e39/attachment.ksh From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Mon Apr 17 18:44:28 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: CPU upgrades, pt. II Message-ID: <01bc01bfa8c6$e11676c0$0200a8c0@marvin> -----Original Message----- From: Peter Pachla To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, April 17, 2000 5:09 PM Subject: Re: CPU upgrades, pt. II >Hi, > > > Heres a PS2/50z question. > > > > Mine only has 1meg, looks like 72pin simm but none I have seem > >work. All of them happen to be 8x32 (16chip). > >I don't really know too much about PS/2s yet, I'm only just starting to >investigate these machines (I've got 3 - a Model 50, a Model 80 and a Model >95). Ah, the model 95! The Ardent Tool of Capitalism itself! Makes a lovely file server when running OS/2 or an old copy of NT 3.5. The machine is indestructible, there's more than enough power and room for 3 or 4 modern SCSI drives, and plenty of slots for a LANstreamer or two. If you don't already have them, I'd suggest upgrading to a Type 4 (Pentium 60 or 66) complex, and an IBM Fast/Wide SCSI controller. Alternatively, many of the older complexes can take Evergreen or other upgrade CPUs, with the suitable interposer. The only downside of PS/2s these days is that 100 Meg Ethernet cards for MCA are very hard to find. You'll grow to love that Model 95 - I plan to have mine used as my headstone when the time comes : v ) Cheers, Mark From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 17 18:33:43 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE In-Reply-To: <008e01bfa8c3$3db93420$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 17, 0 05:18:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3282 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000418/d0e254bd/attachment.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 17 19:16:36 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: XXDP+ LL Formatter on RX50/RX33 In-Reply-To: <38FB9912.B4AAB1EF@arrl.net> from "Nick Oliviero" at Apr 17, 2000 06:06:58 PM Message-ID: <200004180016.RAA01039@shell1.aracnet.com> > I'll second Tony's comments re:maintenance&alignment. We've had two > RL01's running on a 11/23 since 1980 and one RL02 on a 11/45 since > 1991 and I can recall just one head crash in all that time. I'm no longer > on the maintenance side, but I don't believe anyones changed the filters > in the last 5 years. (I am not recommending this aproach) My view on this is to run RL02's and/or SCSI. I've got both on my /44, and I seriously expect the RL02's to be running *long* after the two RZ55's and thier replacements have died. The *only* downside I see to RL01's and RL02's is the physical size and capacity of the drives. The fact that my drives even work is a major testimony to thier reliability! As they weren't treated the best before I got them. Zane From rcini at msn.com Mon Apr 17 19:15:57 2000 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: Replacement disk request Message-ID: Hello, all: This weekend I finished archiving my Mac diskette collection. I copied them to the hard drive of my Mac SE as a safety maneuver. Once I have a little mo re time, I'll make images of them on the gs, move the images to the PC and b urn a CD of them. Anyway, I found two diskettes which have unrecoverable errors. If anyone ha s these that they can image and send my way, I'd appreciate it: Microsoft Basic Interpreter, version 2.10 (single disk) Microsoft Basic Interpreter, version 3.00 (disk 2 of 2) Thanks again. Rich [ Rich Cini [ ClubWin!/CW1 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ <================ reply separator =================> From at258 at osfn.org Mon Apr 17 19:19:41 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: IBM 3200 In-Reply-To: <01bc01bfa8c6$e11676c0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: This past week we received a few IBM bits that seem to have formed a single system. They are a 3274 which has an 8 inch drive, a 3279 monitor, and a small 3102 printer. Does anyone recognise this hardware? From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Apr 17 19:50:14 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: Acorn A4 website? In-Reply-To: "Peter Pachla" "Re: Acorn A4 website?" (Apr 17, 22:09) References: <009a01bf9d88$10648740$d59593c3@proteus> <10004031823.ZM28019@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <010401bfa8be$5c28e5e0$8ce993c3@proteus> Message-ID: <10004180150.ZM2674@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 17, 22:09, Peter Pachla wrote: > >> It's a nice machine, but of little use with nothing but the OS > >>installed. :-( > > > True :-) I've possibly got things that you might have a use for. It > >depends on what you're interested, obviously. What would you like to do? > > Initially, the main things I'm interested in are learning about the system > architecture and getting an assembler for it so I can try out ARM assembly > language. Ah, well I might have an assembler somewhere -- there were two flavours: one produced executable object code directly (I think) and the other produced object modules which could be linked with modules produced by high-level languages such as C, Fortran, and Pascal. I'm sure some of the remaining Acorn web and/or FTP sites, like Stuttgart or HENSA, still have instruction set lists. But you don't even need that to get going -- BBC BASIC V contains a reasonable 2-pass ARM assembler. It works just like the 6502 assembler in BBC BASIC II (et al). Here's a sample so you seen what I mean (don't ask me exactly how it works, it's intimatley bound up with the interactions between the desktop palette, the OS palette, and the hardware palette, and anyway I wrote this 12 years ago :-)): REM part of palette control program for RISC OS 2.0 DIM code% 408 PROCassemble REM main program loop here REM followed by several other procedures/functions DEF PROCsupremacy CALL getpal : REM read actual colour mapping D%=colour% : REM R3=colour% H%=windowhandle% : REM R7=windowhandle% CALL do_sup ENDPROC DEF PROCassemble LOCAL cnt,sup,bm,sptr,vptr,val,ptr,ccol,sp,link,pass% ptr=1 : ccol=3 : cnt=6 : sp=13 : link=14 : REM windowhandle passed in R7 sup=10 : bm=4 : sptr=5 : vptr=8 : val=9 : REM arbitrary register choice log=0 : phys=1 : bpp=4 : wptr=5 : tmp=9 FOR pass%=0 TO 2 STEP 2 P%=code% [ OPT pass% .do_sup STMFD (sp)!, {link} ADR sptr, supremacy% ; set up pointers ADR vptr, vpalette% LDR sup, [sptr] ; get supremacy word MOV bm, #&80 ; supremacy bit mask MOV R0, #12 ; for OSWORD 12 ; In case of moving from 16-colour mode to 256-colour mode, ; we need all the clrs separate from all the sets - because ; several colours may share one physical palette register ADD ptr, vptr, #95 ; ptr to last vpalette entry MOV cnt, #19 ; counter .clr TST sup, bm, LSL cnt ; s-bit for this palette entry LDRB val, [ptr, #1] AND val, val, #&7F STRB val, [ptr, #1] SWI "OS_Word" SUB ptr, ptr, #5 SUBS cnt, cnt, #1 BPL clr ; Do sets after clrs to ensure that if any colour in a group ; is set, all will be. If we did set/clr together, might ; finish a group with a clear. ADD ptr, vptr, #95 ; ptr to last vpalette entry MOV cnt, #19 ; counter .set TST bm, sup, LSR cnt ; s-bit for this palette entry LDRNEB val, [ptr, #1] ORRNE val, val, #&80 STRNEB val, [ptr, #1] SWINE "OS_Word" .next SUB ptr, ptr, #5 SUBS cnt, cnt, #1 BPL set ; If there is a current colour, and it should be clear, then ; we need to clear it explicitly in case it's been set as part ; of a group which is set TST ccol, ccol ; see if there IS a current colour BMI newsup ADD ptr, ccol, ccol, ASL#2 ; if so, point to vpalette%+ccol*5 ADD ptr, ptr, vptr LDRB val, [ptr, #1] ; get logical colour ORR val, val, #&80 TST sup, bm, LSL ccol ; should it be set ? ANDEQ val, val, #&7F ; clear supremacy if not STRB val, [ptr, #1] SWI "OS_Word" ; now we re-get supremacy in case of interactions above .newsup ADD vptr, vptr, #95 ; ptr to final vpalette entry MOV cnt, #19 ; counter MOV val, #0 .nsloop LDRB R0, [vptr] ; logical colour LDRB R1, [vptr, #1] ; supremacy+programming info AND R1, R1, #&7F ; just programming info SWI "OS_ReadPalette" AND R2, R2, #&80 ; return just supremacy ADD val, R2, val, LSL#1 ; shift into new supremacy word AND R0, bm, sup, LSR cnt ; corresponding bit in old word TEQ R0, R2 ; see if same BLNE toggle SUB vptr, vptr, #5 SUBS cnt, cnt, #1 BPL nsloop STR val, [sptr] LDMFD (sp)!, {PC} ; pop PC to return .toggle ADR R1, wimp%+1024 SUB R1, R1, #1024 STR R7, [R1] ; wimp%!0=windowhandle% STR cnt, [R1, #4] ; wimp%!4=icon% or cnt (ie R6) CMP cnt, #16 MOVLT R11, #&00000005 ; depending on which icon, MOVGE R11, #&77000000 ; change different things STR R11, [R1, #8] ; wimp%!8=icon flags EOR word MOV R11, #0 STR R11, [R1, #12] ; wimp%!12=icon flags clear word SWI "Wimp_SetIconState" MOVS pc, link .getpal MVN R0, #0 ; get bits-per-pixel for mode#-1 MOV R1, #9 SWI "OS_ReadModeVariable" MOV bpp, R2 ; save Log2BPP ADR wptr, wpalette% MOV R1, wptr SWI "Wimp_ReadPalette" ; get wimp palette mappings ADR vptr, vpalette% ADD vptr, vptr, #95 MOV cnt, #19 .pal CMP cnt, #16 LDRMIB log, [wptr, cnt, LSL#2] ; get colour programming info ANDPL log, cnt, #7 ; for 16-19, log=cnt MOD 16 MOVMI phys, #16 MOVEQ phys, #24 MOVHI phys, #25 BPL lc_ok CMP bpp, #3 ; if 256 colours, GCOL => LogColNo ANDEQ tmp, log, #&40 ANDEQ log, log, #7 ADDEQ log, log, tmp, LSR#3 .lc_ok STRB log, [vptr] SWI "OS_ReadPalette" BIC R2, R2, #&1F ; correct physical colour ADD R2, R2, phys MOV tmp, #3 .byte STRB R2, [vptr, #1]! ; save RGB, prog info, supremacy MOV R2, R2, LSR#8 SUBS tmp, tmp, #1 BPL byte SUB vptr, vptr, #9 SUBS cnt, cnt, #1 BPL pal MOV pc, link ; claims upcall to permit OS_ChangeDynamicArea ; as it does no checking, it must only be enabled immediately prior ; to calling OS_ChangeDynamicArea, and disabled immediately thereafter .upcall MOV R0, #0 LDMFD R13!, {PC} ] NEXT pass% ENDPROC -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Apr 17 19:56:16 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: XXDP+ LL Formatter on RX50/RX33 In-Reply-To: Nick Oliviero "Re: XXDP+ LL Formatter on RX50/RX33" (Apr 17, 18:06) References: <20000417.121531.-237967.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> <38FB9912.B4AAB1EF@arrl.net> Message-ID: <10004180156.ZM2678@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 17, 18:06, Nick Oliviero wrote: > Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > > > BTW-- Are RL02's a maintainance nightmare? Do the advantages > > of these drives outweigh the problems (not to mention their *size*, > > or are they simply not worth it? > > I'll second Tony's comments re:maintenance&alignment. We've had two > RL01's running on a 11/23 since 1980 and one RL02 on a 11/45 since > 1991 and I can recall just one head crash in all that time. I'm no longer > on the maintenance side, but I don't believe anyones changed the filters > in the last 5 years. (I am not recommending this aproach) Same sort of story with my pair of RL02s; they're not really in continuous use, though they were for about 4-5 years, haven't had a filter change in ten years, and they live in the garage. The only real incident was when a spider decided that nice warm drive was a good place to live, made its home amongst the heads, and came to a sticky end when the drive was spun up. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 17 20:13:44 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE References: Message-ID: <002d01bfa8d3$58909760$0400c0a8@winbook> You're right in both of the points you raise, Tony, but I'm not interested so much in verifying that standards are often ignored as I am in making the interface work in a very specific way if it is at all possible. The difference between the way in which the WD100x-05 boards worked, for example, as compared/contrasted with the WD1003-WAH, is quite minimal. Likewise, the difference between the WD1003-WAH and the IDE is quite minimal. The only REAL difference between the IDE and the 100x-05 in its operating mode (in general terms) is quite minimal as well. That's only true if the IDE will, as the standard states, work in 8-bit mode. >From the standpoint of my S-100 application, the difference between the two 40-conductor cable interfaces is a little more crucial. If the IDE can be muscled into its purported 8-bit mode, it is strictly software. The board I want to use has an address comparator, a low-byte address buffer/latch, and a latch (373) for the DATA OUT bus and one for the DATA IN bus, though it's used strictly as a buffer, i.e. the gate is tied high. The Data OUT bus is always enabled, but latched at the end of the OUT strobe developed on the board so it remains stabile until the next local OUT. If I have to propagate data in words, it still takes two bytes, but because of the nature of the available adequate latches, I have to provide a sequencer to write the data to the IDE after, not during, the OUT cycle. This has to enable both output bytes on an OUT. It has to snag both bytes in the other direction, and then has to sequence the enables to the two bytes in the appropriate order AFTER the write from the IDE is complete. This, again, is because of the nature of the best suited registers, i.e. '646's, which, sadly. don't seem to come in a latched version. They are edge triggered, hence you don't dare look at the data until the entire transaction on the IDE side is over. I had the notion that the '652 or one of the other members of that family would be a transparent latch, but apparently not . . . . Doing all that is pretty simple, but it would be so much simpler in 8-bit mode, where the card-local bidirectional data bus can serve with no latches or buffers at all. What that accomplishes is it makes the interface more general. For the IDE or for the WD100x-05, I need only a connector, as all the required signals are available on the card already. For SCSI, using either an NCR 5380 or a WD 33C93, either of which will fit easily on the available 12x20 wirewrap area at the top of the board. For the case in which I want to attach a notebook drive to the board I need simply attach the fraction of a notebook drive adapter to the IDE channel, and that's done. The only cut-n-paste I have to do is to replace the address comparator with a GAL16V8A or faster, and we're on our way. If I have to build the word-wide interface and the support logic, it takes more cuts and wires, and requires a second GAL. For that reason, I'd prefer a 68-pin CPLD and then leave the TTL component sites vacant, using only their pads for connection points. I find the latter approach somewhat uglier in view of the age of the S-100 and the age of these boards I want to use. Making an S-100 interface, even making a relatively sophisitcated one, is actually quite simple. What I would prefer is to use the TTL for which sites are provided on the board already and make it work with hardware from the period when the system was designed. The fact that the board is using a disk drive fully twenty years younger is excusible only because it's to be use mainly as a develpment tool. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Monday, April 17, 2000 5:33 PM Subject: Re: 8-bit IDE > > > > Tony, your bracketed heading says it all! I'm NOT trying to "fake" 8-bit > > I/O on the IDE interface. The published standards specify a valid 8-bit > > This, IMHO, depends on what you're trying to do. > > If you're trying to get a drive to work in 8-bit mode as an interlectual > exercise, fine. You'll learn something about the IDE interface, and how > PC parts rarely adhere to published standards. > > But if you want an IDE interface for the S100 bus that will work with > just about any IDE drive that you throw at it, then you should only > depend on whatever features are required for the drive to work in a > normal PC. Because you can bet that some drive (or most drives!) won't > implement anything else. > > > data transfer mode for the data port (the other ports are already 8-bit). > > This is described rather minimally in chapter 6 wherein the registers are > > defined. There's an 8-bit enable bit which, when properly conditioned, will > > cause the data port interface to transfer 512 bytes as bytes rather than as > > 256 words. There are LOTS of ways to "fake" it, but I'm trying to determine > > whether anyone has actually operated an IDE interface normally used in > > 16-bit mode in this obscure and, possibly, scantily supported mode. > > My guess is that most drives do _NOT_ implement this bit, at least not now. > > One thing I've learnt over the years is that a lot of 'PC hardware' will > work in a PC when used with the standard OSes and programs but it as sure > as heck doesn't meet any published specs. I've had printer port cards > that don't use open-collector drivers on the control lines (even though > IBM specified that somewhere). I've had floppy drives that don't > implement any parts of the SA400-like interface other than those needed > for the PC (some of them don't even have drive select jumpers). Keyboards > that don't implement all the modes that IBM described in the TechRef. > Floppy controller chips that won't do single density properly. Etc, Etc, Etc > > > You seem to have a good grasp of what some of the IDE signals do. I'd be > > Well, I had to modify the IDE card in this PC.... > > > willing to believe that the interface will not assert IOCS16- if the drive's > > interface is programmed to operate in 8-bit mode. I would expect that if I > > The term 'interface' is ambiguous here. IOCS16/ is asserted by the drive, > not by the bus adapter card. > > The bus adapter simply buffers the signal (most of the time) and sends it > to the ISA slot. In particular, note that the address decoder logic on > the bus adapter is not what asserts IOCS16/ > > AFAIK, a standard IDE drive only asserts IOCS16/ for accesses to the data > register. Not for accesses to any of the control/status registers. Which > means all of those are seen as 8-bit registers. > > > initialize that interface in a 16-bit-capable interface, I'll see the > > IOCS16- go away. Unfortunately, the vast majority of the old TTL > > Well, for an 8-bit interface, IOCS16/ doens't have much meaning... > > > MSI-implemented IDE channels don't have the means to operate in that mode. > > See above. The bus adapter should do the right thing provided the drive > asserts IOCS16/ at the right time. The TTL bus adapter cards are just a > couple of buffers and an address decoder (normally a PAL, but it doesn't > have to be). > > -tony > From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Mon Apr 17 20:33:33 2000 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Kevin Stumpf/Unusual Systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: IBM 3200 References: Message-ID: <002001bfa8d6$1d314860$2881b7d1@kstumpf> These are components from the IBM System/370 family of mainframes. The 3274 is a terminal concentrator/controller, the 3279 is a second generation dumb terminal, and the 3102 is a screen printer/remote general purpose printer. All need a /370, 3xxx, or 43xx mainframe. ----- Original Message ----- From: Merle K. Peirce To: Cc: Sent: Monday, April 17, 2000 8:19 PM Subject: IBM 3200 > > > This past week we received a few IBM bits that seem to have formed a > single system. They are a 3274 which has an 8 inch drive, a 3279 > monitor, and a small 3102 printer. > > Does anyone recognise this hardware? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Apr 17 20:17:42 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: Lubing Shugart 800,801's? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000417184209.359722ec@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Apr 17, 0 06:42:09 pm Message-ID: >I was just commenting that a lot of Apple drives have been replaced when >IMHO it would have been easier and cheaper to fix the old unit... Given the (old) price of $169 for a Apple 1.44 floppy drive that isn't too hard to believe. Even now a good quality refurbed drive (ie really cleaned and relubed) is about $20 from cheap sources and more than double at many places. Many notebook floppy's are still quite outrageously priced, around $150 for replacements. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Apr 17 20:22:24 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE In-Reply-To: References: <008e01bfa8c3$3db93420$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 17, 0 05:18:28 pm Message-ID: I don't know a hoot about this, but I wonder if taking a look at the Sequential Systems Focus card for the Apple II might be instuctive. Its a controller and notebook IDE drive that all fits on a Apple II slot card. From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Mon Apr 17 21:37:45 2000 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: Busy week! (Sun 386i, NeXT) Message-ID: <20000417223745.A19710@alcor.concordia.ca> [For those that don't read acquisition reports, there's a parts search request at the bottom!] Whee, what a pleasant week or so it's been. :-) Found a local guy selling a mono NeXT slab about a week ago -- I've been meaning to pick up one of these for *years* but never really got around to it. So I pick it up, and it's got an N4000A monitor. Now, for those that don't know NeXT, the phosphor in the 4000s and 4000As is relatively low-life. Like any Unix machine, NeXTs tended to be left turned on, and there was no way to turn the display off when the machine was on (power being supplied through the monitor cable). So, the displays by now tend to be quite dim. So, the seller pulls it out of the closet and it's under about half an inch of dust. He apologizes for the condition, and explains that a local university bought it but only used it three months before putting it in storage, and he bought it from the university for a ridiculously low price but never used it himself. So, with the dust out of the way, I find myself with what is basically a brand-new NeXTstation! Were that not enough, it was a *steal*, and then as I was leaving, the seller goes "Oh, I should give you the documentation" and comes out with a NEXTSTEP Academic Bundle (with Developer and Mathematica) and a documentation library. So then today, a week later, I stop by my old faculty to pick up a Sun 386i that they were about to throw out ("Hey, better I decide to get rid of it than you", I say). I'm carting the machine out the door (alas, stripped of disks) and one of the technicians goes "You know, I think we have some documentation for that". There was too much for me to take; by the time we finished going through the storage room I'd found the original 19" mono display, a full documentation set, the system's purchase orders and maintenance history ($3500 for a 300mb disk, anyone?), an expansion cabinet, and two boxes of looseleaf Sun documentation about a foot square each, labeled "Owner's Supplement" (but containing all sorts of hardware docs for sun-3, -4, and 386i) and "Toolkit Documentation Set" (which appeared to be the equivalent for software and drivers) and two bags of disks and tapes. All free! So I still need to pick up a keyboard, which should be easy; but I'm having a hard time tracking down the Y-cable for the 386i that goes between the framebuffer card and the monitor and keyboard. It's a 501-1244 mono hi-res framebuffer and a 540-1062 monitor; anyone know of a source for these cables? -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 17 21:43:24 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE References: <008e01bfa8c3$3db93420$0400c0a8@winbook> from "RichardErlacher" at Apr 17, 0 05:18:28 pm Message-ID: <004f01bfa8df$de838d80$0400c0a8@winbook> Fact is, any idiot with a databook and a standard can devise a suitable interface in a half a day. This thing's really simple. There's never been any question about HOW to make a physical interface that works. The question is (again) "Has anyone got sufficient experience with the IDE in non-PC-compatible applications to say, unequivocally, whether the 8-bit operating mode described in section 6 of the standard for the ATA (IDE) interface, yes SPELLED OUT, actually exists in drives of the pre-1996 vintage?" It was dropped from the standard in 1996. There seem to be many folks with suggestions about how to implement this extremely elementary interface. There seem to be few who know whether the standard was every full implemented. Allison seems to be the only one who's tried this, and, I fear, it may be in a PC-compatible, where all bets are off as to what really happens. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ford To: Sent: Monday, April 17, 2000 7:22 PM Subject: Re: 8-bit IDE > I don't know a hoot about this, but I wonder if taking a look at the > Sequential Systems Focus card for the Apple II might be instuctive. Its a > controller and notebook IDE drive that all fits on a Apple II slot card. > > From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 17 20:11:34 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE Message-ID: <006201bfa8da$67166100$7264c0d0@ajp166> >The coding, unfortunately, is not similar enough to the 1003-wah to make the >code directly portable, but there are simply more registers in the IDE. The only additional register is the FDC control hence the second CS. I used the 1003spec as I had that for writing code as it was more complete. from what I could see for drives that were smaller than 500mb the two are identical. for larger dirves that could be different (things like LBA and all). Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 17 20:15:45 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE Message-ID: <006301bfa8da$67c7afa0$7264c0d0@ajp166> >This is described rather minimally in chapter 6 wherein the registers are >defined. There's an 8-bit enable bit which, when properly conditioned, will >cause the data port interface to transfer 512 bytes as bytes rather than as >256 words. There are LOTS of ways to "fake" it, but I'm trying to determine >whether anyone has actually operated an IDE interface normally used in >16-bit mode in this obscure and, possibly, scantily supported mode. If you find a drive that supports it let me know. I never did and I have a good list of drive to pick from. >What I want is information from people who've actually read the standard and >attempted to use a normally 16-bit drive in 8-bit mode. This is not >particularly easy with the existing hardware. I'll be surprised if anyone >has built interface hardware that is actually capable of this. It's >possible, though. Actually 8bit mode is the desireable config. Just that it was deemed optional. figure it out, why would a PC vendor put in a mode that is inherently half the performance? Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 17 20:18:51 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: CPU upgrades, pt. II Message-ID: <006401bfa8da$6872bcb0$7264c0d0@ajp166> >Any idea where I can find one of these IBM ESDI drives, the one from my >Model 50 is missing and I want to restore the machine to it's original >configuration? If its mod 50 then not EDSI but RLL or MFM. I have one of the MFM ones with a few bad blocks. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 17 20:07:00 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE Message-ID: <006101bfa8da$661d5b00$7264c0d0@ajp166> >But if you want an IDE interface for the S100 bus that will work with >just about any IDE drive that you throw at it, then you should only >depend on whatever features are required for the drive to work in a >normal PC. Because you can bet that some drive (or most drives!) won't >implement anything else. I'd agree from my experience. I'd add the 2.5" drive are less likely too. >> willing to believe that the interface will not assert IOCS16- if the drive's >> interface is programmed to operate in 8-bit mode. I would expect that if I > >The term 'interface' is ambiguous here. IOCS16/ is asserted by the drive, >not by the bus adapter card. True! I built the interface on the assumption it would be asserted to save logic. >The bus adapter simply buffers the signal (most of the time) and sends it >to the ISA slot. In particular, note that the address decoder logic on >the bus adapter is not what asserts IOCS16/ Correct, those assert CS lines. >AFAIK, a standard IDE drive only asserts IOCS16/ for accesses to the data >register. Not for accesses to any of the control/status registers. Which >means all of those are seen as 8-bit registers. Yep. That mas a 8<>16 adaptor simpler as it's only reads and writes to one address that need folding. >> MSI-implemented IDE channels don't have the means to operate in that mode. > >See above. The bus adapter should do the right thing provided the drive >asserts IOCS16/ at the right time. The TTL bus adapter cards are just a >couple of buffers and an address decoder (normally a PAL, but it doesn't >have to be). Actually this is only important to obscure hardware as the software knows a data register read/write is 16bit (word) and that all other registers are byte. I think the idea was that IOCS16 was to notify byte oriented logic to handle the 16bit transfer (ISA-8). Allison > >-tony > From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 17 20:23:04 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: CPU upgrades, pt. II Message-ID: <006501bfa8da$692bac70$7264c0d0@ajp166> > > There is only one SIMM socket. What is the limit for ram (max)? > >Where can I get something bigger than 1mb? > >Interesting, my Model 50 has a pair of SIMM sockets on the planar. They look >more like 30-pin SIMMs than 72-pin ones, but I haven't taken them out to >check yet. Also, I've never seen SIMMs like these before - the PCB is a >brown/beige colour, and the RAM chips are in small silver "cans" rather than >the usual black epoxy. Ok, there are two merged messages there to start with. Also there are two versions of the PS/2M50 one is like yours and uses two simms. the other is like mine a 50Z that uses one. the 50z is also 286 powered but was designed for no memory wait states. It's a tiny bit faster. At onepoint I had working examples of both, I kept the 50Z and geve the other away. >Anyway, I suspect you'll find that the limit for RAM (on the >motherboard/planar/whateveryouwanttocallit) will be 2Mb. IBM used to make >these wierd, double sided, 2Mb 72-pin SIMMs specifically for some models in >the PS/2 family. Thats what some one else already said. >I remember these SIMMs distinctly since around 10 years ago they used to >sell for practically nothing on FidoNet as they were of no use whatsoever in >anything but a PS/2. Figures. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 17 21:01:25 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:50 2005 Subject: Nuke Redmond! Message-ID: <006601bfa8da$69e622d0$7264c0d0@ajp166> >I wonder why we never had access to this stuff at work, I'm sure it would've >been of some help. only if you could find what you sought. ;-P >Yes, I'd be using NT4 myself except that I cannot run DVE (Vectrex emulator) >under it. I haven't tried it under Win2K Professional yet, but I'm none too >hopeful. I'm running NT4ws and things I was told would not run seems to work fine! Even Gcadd6.1 (a PITA even under dos) runs smoothly. Then again I'm not running AGP video (using a PCI 2mb S3 board). >One thing I will say about Win2K is that it seems to be far more stable than >any other M$ OS on my hardware thus far. NT4 was giving me memory faults >when running OE5, Win95 is flaky at best and Win98 wouldn't run for more >than 4 or 5 minutes without "freezing" up completely. Sigh. Well, there is a message there. Memory faults??? doesn't this sugggest something to you? I'd start with the hardware setup. You may have bad ram, some device that is abusing the bus. or just maybe something is misconfigured. FYI there is a patch for W95 if your using a AMDk6-2/300 or faster (timing race condition in w95 breaks). That was after I fofund the board didn't want to run PC100 but did run PC66 as stable. That is an example of what subtle things can screw a system up. While I don't love w95 I have 40 clients running it and for the most part one burp a week among them all is the common thing and often reboot solves that. I've found office97 to be more troublesome. Then again, we don't run games and we dont run IE5.0 for obvious reasons. I'd look at that system for problems that make it unstable. Video drivers are commonly a problem, and some sound drivers are painful. the worst problem we have are things like ODBC drivers that leak, solution is a once perday stop/restart of Coldfusion on the NT server. Over the last year I've spent a lot of time debunking the rebilability myth and NT3.51 can be stable and so can W95. The work was finding all those gremlin apps, drivers and some hardware that didn't work. Then installing W95 correctly in some cases. MS code is not as robust as I'd like but if it falls over too often then you have a different problem. W95 is at least three versions with OSR2.1 (aka 95c) being the latest W95 and win 98 is really 95 with bug fixes and enhancements and currently OSR2 is the latest. W98 is more stable than 95 and has some debugging functions to help. Upgrades are available, W98 OSR2 is free for download if you have W98! NT4 is really improved 3.51, same deal, more stable ONLY if SP4 or later is installed. However bad apps and bad hardware will get you even with Linux, faster as it uses hardware harder! Start with good hardware. I'm not a MS lover, though it makes me a living now. I have foudn one thing that was true when I was hacking PDP-8s and later 8080s. Don't blame the cow for soggy cereal. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 17 21:22:15 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE Message-ID: <007901bfa8dd$4fe94670$7264c0d0@ajp166> > "Has anyone got sufficient experience with the IDE in non-PC-compatible >applications to say, unequivocally, whether the 8-bit operating mode >described in section 6 of the standard for the ATA (IDE) interface, yes >SPELLED OUT, actually exists in drives of the pre-1996 vintage?" It was >dropped from the standard in 1996. There seem to be many folks with >suggestions about how to implement this extremely elementary interface. >There seem to be few who know whether the standard was every full >implemented. Why would they include that? NONE of the PC hardware they were intended for wants to run as 8bit bus. Even the crippled SL/SLC run as 16bit busses. >Allison seems to be the only one who's tried this, and, I fear, it may be in >a PC-compatible, where all bets are off as to what really happens. Obviously visually impaired! I don't hack IO in PCs nor have I tried that yet. I may add why even bother, IDE works there as is. ALL of the IDE work I've done was with 8085, z80s either stand alone (bus less) or S100 Z80s. Further I'm currently working on a Z280 system with IDE (Zbus 16bit). This is where I need interfaces and so I can replace older MFM or non-existent hard disks. I currently have one S100 system running a connor3044A (40mb) IDE that will be upgraded to a ST3250 (250mb) as it's a better drive. The drives I've tried include: Connor 2022 Connor 3044 WD2120 WD2420 St3096A St3144A St3250A St3660 Fijitsu 528mb Quantum LPS 80 and 120 Maxtor 124mb and afew other sub 60mb WD, NEC, Seagate drives. I now have two 2.5mb IDE in the 700-800mb region I may try one day. I do have two WD PS/2m30 compatable 8bit IDE 20meg drives. I think this is a good cross section Allison > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Mike Ford >To: >Sent: Monday, April 17, 2000 7:22 PM >Subject: Re: 8-bit IDE > > >> I don't know a hoot about this, but I wonder if taking a look at the >> Sequential Systems Focus card for the Apple II might be instuctive. Its a >> controller and notebook IDE drive that all fits on a Apple II slot card. >> >> > From jhfine at idirect.com Mon Apr 17 23:11:16 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE References: <007901bfa8dd$4fe94670$7264c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <38FBE064.3BA8CB1F@idirect.com> >allisonp wrote: > ALL of the IDE work I've done was with 8085, z80s either stand alone > (bus less) or S100 Z80s. Further I'm currently working on a Z280 system > with IDE (Zbus 16bit). This is where I need interfaces and so I can replace > older MFM or non-existent hard disks. I currently have one S100 system > running a connor3044A (40mb) IDE that will be upgraded to a ST3250 > (250mb) as it's a better drive. > > The drives I've tried include: > > Connor 2022 > Connor 3044 > WD2120 > WD2420 > St3096A > St3144A > St3250A > St3660 > Fijitsu 528mb > Quantum LPS 80 and 120 > Maxtor 124mb > and afew other sub 60mb WD, NEC, Seagate drives. > > I now have two 2.5mb IDE in the 700-800mb region I may try one day. > > I do have two WD PS/2m30 compatable 8bit IDE 20meg drives. > > I think this is a good cross section Jerome Fine replies: But have you tried to get an IDE drive to work with a Qbus? That would seem to be an even better goal? Well at least from my point of view! I do admit to being strictly focused on a PDP-11 as well. I always wondered why none of the 3rd party manufactures did not do an MSCP emulation. And if you are still concerned about using MSCP until or before the patent expires, there are a number of other possibilities that are much less difficult and still allow a 32 bit block number. Can you at least suggest how easy or difficult it might be? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From edick at idcomm.com Mon Apr 17 23:56:37 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE References: <006101bfa8da$661d5b00$7264c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <006901bfa8f2$7b62fca0$0400c0a8@winbook> please see embedded comments below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: allisonp To: Sent: Monday, April 17, 2000 7:07 PM Subject: Re: 8-bit IDE > > > I'd agree from my experience. I'd add the 2.5" drive are less likely too. > > >> willing to believe that the interface will not assert IOCS16- if the > drive's > >> interface is programmed to operate in 8-bit mode. I would expect that if > I > > > >The term 'interface' is ambiguous here. IOCS16/ is asserted by the drive, > >not by the bus adapter card. > What it is is an I/O channel controlled by the host. The host provides an address and a select, in addition to which it provides a read or write strobe, and the interface, which is implemented at the target device, interprets the signals on the channel and responds accordingly. The signal name is inherited from the 1003-WAH, since it had to assert that signal to force the ISA bus to transfer a whole word at once. But for that signal, the AT bus would have steered the bytes separately from two byte transfers. > > True! I built the interface on the assumption it would be asserted to > save logic. > > >The bus adapter simply buffers the signal (most of the time) and sends it > >to the ISA slot. In particular, note that the address decoder logic on > >the bus adapter is not what asserts IOCS16/ > ... and that's EXACTLY why I'd expect the thing to decline to assert IOCS16- when it's conditioned for 8-bit operation as the standard suggests. I am beginning to see that there's a lot of doubt that drive manufacturers actually implemented this mode, and I certainly see the logic behind that belief. > > Correct, those assert CS lines. > > >AFAIK, a standard IDE drive only asserts IOCS16/ for accesses to the data > >register. Not for accesses to any of the control/status registers. Which > >means all of those are seen as 8-bit registers. > > > Yep. That mas a 8<>16 adaptor simpler as it's only reads and writes to one > address that need folding. > > >> MSI-implemented IDE channels don't have the means to operate in that > mode. > > > >See above. The bus adapter should do the right thing provided the drive > >asserts IOCS16/ at the right time. The TTL bus adapter cards are just a > >couple of buffers and an address decoder (normally a PAL, but it doesn't > >have to be). > > > Actually this is only important to obscure hardware as the software knows > a data register read/write is 16bit (word) and that all other registers are > byte. > I think the idea was that IOCS16 was to notify byte oriented logic to handle > the 16bit transfer (ISA-8). > > Allison > > > > >-tony > > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 18 00:12:05 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE References: <006301bfa8da$67c7afa0$7264c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <006f01bfa8f4$a4e4ae00$0400c0a8@winbook> Your assumptions, reasoning and conclusions are all quite reasonable, Allison. The drive makers might have had a motive to include that mode back in the early days of the IDE, when there was some small risk that the interface might be seen as appropriate for use in an 8-bit architecture. Those days are gone, however. Nonetheless, since I'm actually wanting to design for that mode, at the cost of having to find the hardware that supports it, and for the simple reason that it makes for the most widely flexible, not necessarily universal, adapter. It will allow me to put and IDE and a WD100x-05 board and a SCSI/SASI bridge on the same adapter. PC's are terrible for testing hardware, yet the S-100's and other boxes of the day were not well equipped with the means to run tests on various interface equipment. I've had a lot of stuff sitting for a long time. I'd like to verify that it's working before I attack the larger task of extracting at least seemingly useful work from the old clunkers. It's really not hard to come up with general-purpose interfaces like these, and the closer they are to a General Purpose I/O channel, the more likely they are to be useful, at least with a minimum of alteration. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: allisonp To: Sent: Monday, April 17, 2000 7:15 PM Subject: Re: 8-bit IDE > >This is described rather minimally in chapter 6 wherein the registers are > >defined. There's an 8-bit enable bit which, when properly conditioned, > will > >cause the data port interface to transfer 512 bytes as bytes rather than as > >256 words. There are LOTS of ways to "fake" it, but I'm trying to > determine > >whether anyone has actually operated an IDE interface normally used in > >16-bit mode in this obscure and, possibly, scantily supported mode. > > > If you find a drive that supports it let me know. I never did and I have a > good > list of drive to pick from. > > >What I want is information from people who've actually read the standard > and > >attempted to use a normally 16-bit drive in 8-bit mode. This is not > >particularly easy with the existing hardware. I'll be surprised if anyone > >has built interface hardware that is actually capable of this. It's > >possible, though. > > > Actually 8bit mode is the desireable config. Just that it was deemed > optional. > figure it out, why would a PC vendor put in a mode that is inherently half > the performance? > > Allison > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 18 00:21:36 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE References: <007901bfa8dd$4fe94670$7264c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <007501bfa8f5$f86b51e0$0400c0a8@winbook> Well, I've got one drive, an ST351, I think it is, that responds to the 8-bit conditioning. It's a 1.25"-tall 3-1/2" drive, of 44 MB capacity. That's not what I want for the "hard-card" on the S-100. All your assertions about the relative folly of expending effort/resources to make the drive talk-8-bits wide has no real purpose except to bind it to its historical roots. I'd bet that the logic in the 1003-WAH uses the data-width bit to enable the IOCS16- signal and thereby lets the AT bus control whether the transfer is 8 or 16 bits wide, since the AT bus is required to do that. The early IDE drives made for COMPAQ by Seagate, were half-high 5-1/4" drives from which I've saved one or two of the PCB's. These have all the same logic on them that I recognize from the 1003-WA2 which is a WAH with the FDC missing, I think. Maybe it's the other way around . . . Those guys undoubtedly supported the 8-bit mode, since their host was, in some cases, an XT-class machine. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: allisonp To: Sent: Monday, April 17, 2000 8:22 PM Subject: Re: 8-bit IDE > > "Has anyone got sufficient experience with the IDE in non-PC-compatible > >applications to say, unequivocally, whether the 8-bit operating mode > >described in section 6 of the standard for the ATA (IDE) interface, yes > >SPELLED OUT, actually exists in drives of the pre-1996 vintage?" It was > >dropped from the standard in 1996. There seem to be many folks with > >suggestions about how to implement this extremely elementary interface. > >There seem to be few who know whether the standard was every full > >implemented. > > > Why would they include that? NONE of the PC hardware they were intended > for wants to run as 8bit bus. Even the crippled SL/SLC run as 16bit busses. > > >Allison seems to be the only one who's tried this, and, I fear, it may be > in > >a PC-compatible, where all bets are off as to what really happens. > > > Obviously visually impaired! I don't hack IO in PCs nor have I tried that > yet. > I may add why even bother, IDE works there as is. > > ALL of the IDE work I've done was with 8085, z80s either stand alone > (bus less) or S100 Z80s. Further I'm currently working on a Z280 system > with IDE (Zbus 16bit). This is where I need interfaces and so I can replace > older MFM or non-existent hard disks. I currently have one S100 system > running a connor3044A (40mb) IDE that will be upgraded to a ST3250 > (250mb) as it's a better drive. > > The drives I've tried include: > > Connor 2022 > Connor 3044 > WD2120 > WD2420 > St3096A > St3144A > St3250A > St3660 > Fijitsu 528mb > Quantum LPS 80 and 120 > Maxtor 124mb > and afew other sub 60mb WD, NEC, Seagate drives. > > I now have two 2.5mb IDE in the 700-800mb region I may try one day. > > I do have two WD PS/2m30 compatable 8bit IDE 20meg drives. > > I think this is a good cross section > > Allison > > > >Dick > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Mike Ford > >To: > >Sent: Monday, April 17, 2000 7:22 PM > >Subject: Re: 8-bit IDE > > > > > >> I don't know a hoot about this, but I wonder if taking a look at the > >> Sequential Systems Focus card for the Apple II might be instuctive. Its a > >> controller and notebook IDE drive that all fits on a Apple II slot card. > >> > >> > > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 18 00:31:16 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE References: <007901bfa8dd$4fe94670$7264c0d0@ajp166> <38FBE064.3BA8CB1F@idirect.com> Message-ID: <007b01bfa8f7$51a4b340$0400c0a8@winbook> My experience with Q-Bus I/O was always spoon-fed via a DRV11-WA card. That serves to isolate my problems from "theirs." Would it be better done without the DRV11-WA? It would seem to me that, since the DE timing spec is typically faster than what the DRV11 requires, yet tolerant of slower and more varied rates than what the DRV11 can do, it should be quite straighforward, and probably every bit as fast as anything ANY DEC box with a Q-Bus can manage. The data I/O comes through a single address, so only that one address has to be word-wide, not to say it can't be. I do wonder whether the Q-Bus can generate the appropriate addresses, however, without hardware help. A bit of steering would, I believe, suffice to make the interface work from a word-wide bus. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerome Fine To: Sent: Monday, April 17, 2000 10:11 PM Subject: Re: 8-bit IDE > >allisonp wrote: > > > ALL of the IDE work I've done was with 8085, z80s either stand alone > > (bus less) or S100 Z80s. Further I'm currently working on a Z280 system > > with IDE (Zbus 16bit). This is where I need interfaces and so I can replace > > older MFM or non-existent hard disks. I currently have one S100 system > > running a connor3044A (40mb) IDE that will be upgraded to a ST3250 > > (250mb) as it's a better drive. > > > > The drives I've tried include: > > > > Connor 2022 > > Connor 3044 > > WD2120 > > WD2420 > > St3096A > > St3144A > > St3250A > > St3660 > > Fijitsu 528mb > > Quantum LPS 80 and 120 > > Maxtor 124mb > > and afew other sub 60mb WD, NEC, Seagate drives. > > > > I now have two 2.5mb IDE in the 700-800mb region I may try one day. > > > > I do have two WD PS/2m30 compatable 8bit IDE 20meg drives. > > > > I think this is a good cross section > > Jerome Fine replies: > > But have you tried to get an IDE drive to work with a Qbus? That would seem > to be an even better goal? Well at least from my point of view! I do admit > to being strictly focused on a PDP-11 as well. I always wondered why none > of the 3rd party manufactures did not do an MSCP emulation. And if you are > still concerned about using MSCP until or before the patent expires, there are > a number of other possibilities that are much less difficult and still allow > a 32 bit block number. Can you at least suggest how easy or difficult it > might be? > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine > From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Apr 18 00:58:55 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE In-Reply-To: <007501bfa8f5$f86b51e0$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 17, 2000 11:21:36 PM Message-ID: <200004180558.XAA32266@calico.litterbox.com> I know someone has made an ide hard card for the 8 bit apple 2 bus that takes modern IDE drives, including the 1 inch notebook drives. I'm unclear how it was done, but you can buy one at www.allelec.com/harddiap.htm . > > Well, I've got one drive, an ST351, I think it is, that responds to the > 8-bit conditioning. It's a 1.25"-tall 3-1/2" drive, of 44 MB capacity. > That's not what I want for the "hard-card" on the S-100. > > All your assertions about the relative folly of expending effort/resources > to make the drive talk-8-bits wide has no real purpose except to bind it to > its historical roots. I'd bet that the logic in the 1003-WAH uses the > data-width bit to enable the IOCS16- signal and thereby lets the AT bus > control whether the transfer is 8 or 16 bits wide, since the AT bus is > required to do that. > > The early IDE drives made for COMPAQ by Seagate, were half-high 5-1/4" > drives from which I've saved one or two of the PCB's. These have all the > same logic on them that I recognize from the 1003-WA2 which is a WAH with > the FDC missing, I think. Maybe it's the other way around . . . > > Those guys undoubtedly supported the 8-bit mode, since their host was, in > some cases, an XT-class machine. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: allisonp > To: > Sent: Monday, April 17, 2000 8:22 PM > Subject: Re: 8-bit IDE > > > > > "Has anyone got sufficient experience with the IDE in > non-PC-compatible > > >applications to say, unequivocally, whether the 8-bit operating mode > > >described in section 6 of the standard for the ATA (IDE) interface, yes > > >SPELLED OUT, actually exists in drives of the pre-1996 vintage?" It was > > >dropped from the standard in 1996. There seem to be many folks with > > >suggestions about how to implement this extremely elementary interface. > > >There seem to be few who know whether the standard was every full > > >implemented. > > > > > > Why would they include that? NONE of the PC hardware they were intended > > for wants to run as 8bit bus. Even the crippled SL/SLC run as 16bit > busses. > > > > >Allison seems to be the only one who's tried this, and, I fear, it may be > > in > > >a PC-compatible, where all bets are off as to what really happens. > > > > > > Obviously visually impaired! I don't hack IO in PCs nor have I tried that > > yet. > > I may add why even bother, IDE works there as is. > > > > ALL of the IDE work I've done was with 8085, z80s either stand alone > > (bus less) or S100 Z80s. Further I'm currently working on a Z280 system > > with IDE (Zbus 16bit). This is where I need interfaces and so I can > replace > > older MFM or non-existent hard disks. I currently have one S100 system > > running a connor3044A (40mb) IDE that will be upgraded to a ST3250 > > (250mb) as it's a better drive. > > > > The drives I've tried include: > > > > Connor 2022 > > Connor 3044 > > WD2120 > > WD2420 > > St3096A > > St3144A > > St3250A > > St3660 > > Fijitsu 528mb > > Quantum LPS 80 and 120 > > Maxtor 124mb > > and afew other sub 60mb WD, NEC, Seagate drives. > > > > I now have two 2.5mb IDE in the 700-800mb region I may try one day. > > > > I do have two WD PS/2m30 compatable 8bit IDE 20meg drives. > > > > I think this is a good cross section > > > > Allison > > > > > >Dick > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: Mike Ford > > >To: > > >Sent: Monday, April 17, 2000 7:22 PM > > >Subject: Re: 8-bit IDE > > > > > > > > >> I don't know a hoot about this, but I wonder if taking a look at the > > >> Sequential Systems Focus card for the Apple II might be instuctive. Its > a > > >> controller and notebook IDE drive that all fits on a Apple II slot > card. > > >> > > >> > > > > > > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 18 01:14:42 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE References: <200004180558.XAA32266@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <000f01bfa8fd$64374800$0400c0a8@winbook> There's no real difficulty involved in making the interface work. The one thing I get out of doing this sort of thing myself is that I get to decide how it SHOULD be done and the do it that way if possible. It's not difficult with today's technology to build a simple IDE interface that handles the bytes and words correctly. However, it seems to me that, if there is supposed to be a means built into the "standard" interface by means of which I can avoid having to deal with the conversion to/from words on the data port, I should exploit that feature. Finding the drives that support that feature is then the crux, but it should be achievable. In no case will it be of any significant economic value. Unfortunately, there seems to be precious little information around about whether this feature is available, and if so, on which drive models. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Strickland To: Sent: Monday, April 17, 2000 11:58 PM Subject: Re: 8-bit IDE > I know someone has made an ide hard card for the 8 bit apple 2 bus that takes > modern IDE drives, including the 1 inch notebook drives. I'm unclear how it > was done, but you can buy one at www.allelec.com/harddiap.htm . > > > > > > Well, I've got one drive, an ST351, I think it is, that responds to the > > 8-bit conditioning. It's a 1.25"-tall 3-1/2" drive, of 44 MB capacity. > > That's not what I want for the "hard-card" on the S-100. > > > > All your assertions about the relative folly of expending effort/resources > > to make the drive talk-8-bits wide has no real purpose except to bind it to > > its historical roots. I'd bet that the logic in the 1003-WAH uses the > > data-width bit to enable the IOCS16- signal and thereby lets the AT bus > > control whether the transfer is 8 or 16 bits wide, since the AT bus is > > required to do that. > > > > The early IDE drives made for COMPAQ by Seagate, were half-high 5-1/4" > > drives from which I've saved one or two of the PCB's. These have all the > > same logic on them that I recognize from the 1003-WA2 which is a WAH with > > the FDC missing, I think. Maybe it's the other way around . . . > > > > Those guys undoubtedly supported the 8-bit mode, since their host was, in > > some cases, an XT-class machine. > > > > Dick > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: allisonp > > To: > > Sent: Monday, April 17, 2000 8:22 PM > > Subject: Re: 8-bit IDE > > > > > > > > "Has anyone got sufficient experience with the IDE in > > non-PC-compatible > > > >applications to say, unequivocally, whether the 8-bit operating mode > > > >described in section 6 of the standard for the ATA (IDE) interface, yes > > > >SPELLED OUT, actually exists in drives of the pre-1996 vintage?" It was > > > >dropped from the standard in 1996. There seem to be many folks with > > > >suggestions about how to implement this extremely elementary interface. > > > >There seem to be few who know whether the standard was every full > > > >implemented. > > > > > > > > > Why would they include that? NONE of the PC hardware they were intended > > > for wants to run as 8bit bus. Even the crippled SL/SLC run as 16bit > > busses. > > > > > > >Allison seems to be the only one who's tried this, and, I fear, it may be > > > in > > > >a PC-compatible, where all bets are off as to what really happens. > > > > > > > > > Obviously visually impaired! I don't hack IO in PCs nor have I tried that > > > yet. > > > I may add why even bother, IDE works there as is. > > > > > > ALL of the IDE work I've done was with 8085, z80s either stand alone > > > (bus less) or S100 Z80s. Further I'm currently working on a Z280 system > > > with IDE (Zbus 16bit). This is where I need interfaces and so I can > > replace > > > older MFM or non-existent hard disks. I currently have one S100 system > > > running a connor3044A (40mb) IDE that will be upgraded to a ST3250 > > > (250mb) as it's a better drive. > > > > > > The drives I've tried include: > > > > > > Connor 2022 > > > Connor 3044 > > > WD2120 > > > WD2420 > > > St3096A > > > St3144A > > > St3250A > > > St3660 > > > Fijitsu 528mb > > > Quantum LPS 80 and 120 > > > Maxtor 124mb > > > and afew other sub 60mb WD, NEC, Seagate drives. > > > > > > I now have two 2.5mb IDE in the 700-800mb region I may try one day. > > > > > > I do have two WD PS/2m30 compatable 8bit IDE 20meg drives. > > > > > > I think this is a good cross section > > > > > > Allison > > > > > > > >Dick > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > >From: Mike Ford > > > >To: > > > >Sent: Monday, April 17, 2000 7:22 PM > > > >Subject: Re: 8-bit IDE > > > > > > > > > > > >> I don't know a hoot about this, but I wonder if taking a look at the > > > >> Sequential Systems Focus card for the Apple II might be instuctive. Its > > a > > > >> controller and notebook IDE drive that all fits on a Apple II slot > > card. > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Jim Strickland > jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > BeOS Powered! > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From jpero at cgocable.net Tue Apr 18 01:49:14 2000 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: CPU upgrades, pt. II In-Reply-To: <010701bfa8be$5eb78000$8ce993c3@proteus> Message-ID: <38FBCD2A.28898.13DD74A@localhost> On 17 Apr 2000, at 23:31, Peter Pachla wrote: > Hi, > > > Heres a PS2/50z question. > > > > Mine only has 1meg, looks like 72pin simm but none I have seem > >work. All of them happen to be 8x32 (16chip). Must be 36bits and correct presence detection pins set. There were two or three speeds but same capacity on 512K x 36 simms. > > I don't really know too much about PS/2s yet, I'm only just starting to > investigate these machines (I've got 3 - a Model 50, a Model 80 and a Model > 95). 8550-xxx? 8580-xxx? x595-xxx? Yes there is 8595 and 9595's. I upkeep my small set of PS/2s and have researched much, one newgroups for the ps/2 is out there (comp.sys.ibm.ps2) > Interesting, my Model 50 has a pair of SIMM sockets on the planar. They look > more like 30-pin SIMMs than 72-pin ones, but I haven't taken them out to > check yet. Also, I've never seen SIMMs like these before - the PCB is a > brown/beige colour, and the RAM chips are in small silver "cans" rather than > the usual black epoxy. Allison's is 50z. Yours is the early 50. Users complained of lazy performance, IBM responded with 50z, better memory subsystem performance w/ 10mhz 286 cpu (0WS) and faster and tad bigger hd capacity. BTW, those pair of simms are nonstandard 30pin IBM 512K x 9bit on also nonstandard pinout. 50z uses standard parity 72pin with correct detect pins set. > Anyway, I suspect you'll find that the limit for RAM (on the > motherboard/planar/whateveryouwanttocallit) will be 2Mb. IBM used to make > these wierd, double sided, 2Mb 72-pin SIMMs specifically for some models in > the PS/2 family. Just plucked a 32bit MCA Kignston memory 4 x 72pin slots card from C.R. for prissy 5 USD. Going into 70-Axx with more of those hacked 2MB sticks. > > I remember these SIMMs distinctly since around 10 years ago they used to > sell for practically nothing on FidoNet as they were of no use whatsoever in > anything but a PS/2. Those 2MB 72pin parity simms? Those are common 512K x 36bit 85ns, Most of them can do 80ns after moving the one SMD resistor one spot. Duly done that to several and using them in my 70-Axx. 55sx, 50z, 70's and some PS/2 machines that uses these. Wizard From jpero at cgocable.net Tue Apr 18 01:49:14 2000 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE In-Reply-To: <007901bfa8dd$4fe94670$7264c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <38FBCD2A.23453.13DD773@localhost> On 17 Apr 2000, at 22:22, allisonp wrote: > >Allison seems to be the only one who's tried this, and, I fear, it may be > in > >a PC-compatible, where all bets are off as to what really happens. > > > Obviously visually impaired! I don't hack IO in PCs nor have I tried that > yet. > I may add why even bother, IDE works there as is. > > ALL of the IDE work I've done was with 8085, z80s either stand alone > (bus less) or S100 Z80s. Further I'm currently working on a Z280 system > with IDE (Zbus 16bit). This is where I need interfaces and so I can replace > older MFM or non-existent hard disks. I currently have one S100 system > running a connor3044A (40mb) IDE that will be upgraded to a ST3250 > (250mb) as it's a better drive. > > The drives I've tried include: > I do have two WD PS/2m30 compatable 8bit IDE 20meg drives. > > I think this is a good cross section Whoa, good cross section, and missed the ST351A/X? This is one of rare drives that can be jumpered for either physical 16bit or 8bit mode. > > Allison > > > >Dick Wizard From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Apr 18 02:29:36 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE In-Reply-To: <000f01bfa8fd$64374800$0400c0a8@winbook> References: <200004180558.XAA32266@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: >However, it seems to me that, if there is supposed to be a means built into >the "standard" interface by means of which I can avoid having to deal with >the conversion to/from words on the data port, I should exploit that >feature. Finding the drives that support that feature is then the crux, but >it should be achievable. In no case will it be of any significant economic >value. By day you're the main system architect at MicroSoft right? ;) From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Apr 18 05:55:04 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: Sharp PC1211 In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000417184209.359722ec@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <200004180856.e3I8ukG24554@mail2.siemens.de> > I did some checking and my TRS 80 pocket computer looks exactly like the > Sharp PC1211. > http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum/machines/SharpPC1211.html Well, it is, like the PC 2 (?) is a rebadged PC 1500 and the PC 4 is an OEM Casio. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 18 07:47:52 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE In-Reply-To: <38FBE064.3BA8CB1F@idirect.com> Message-ID: > But have you tried to get an IDE drive to work with a Qbus? That would seem No, not yet. The probelm there is more one of drivers than interface. At the interface level, it's ben done by a russian chap. The problem with that design is it's PIO driven and as a result slower than putty. A good IDE interface wtih DMA has the potential to rival some of the faster interfaces used on Qbus as it would not have all the protocal overhead. I have adaquate devices for my PDP-11s but I'd love to build a small T-11 powered box. Two limitations to doing that, an extreme shortage of time and a free OS I can write a driver for (RT11 and unix don't count). > of the 3rd party manufactures did not do an MSCP emulation. And if you are > still concerned about using MSCP until or before the patent expires, there are Silly question, why bother with MSCP at all? A native drive like RL02, DSD-880, RKnn would work just as well and offer better performance. Answer, it's a standard that everyone seems to emulate. Besides CP/M based systems are where I hardware hack the most. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 18 08:08:50 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE In-Reply-To: <006901bfa8f2$7b62fca0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: > What it is is an I/O channel controlled by the host. The host provides an > address and a select, in addition to which it provides a read or write > strobe, and the interface, which is implemented at the target device, I know that. > ... and that's EXACTLY why I'd expect the thing to decline to assert IOCS16- > when it's conditioned for 8-bit operation as the standard suggests. I am > beginning to see that there's a lot of doubt that drive manufacturers > actually implemented this mode, and I certainly see the logic behind that > belief. When I tried to use set-8bit IO_16 did respond as it did for 16bit default. Tha and I was loosing every oher byte. Please edit messages, I'm running at work over a really turkey telnet link and editing is painful, even wholesale deletion can be slow. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 18 08:21:06 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE In-Reply-To: <006f01bfa8f4$a4e4ae00$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Apr 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Your assumptions, reasoning and conclusions are all quite reasonable, > Allison. The drive makers might have had a motive to include that mode back Testing suggests PC and standards in the same breath are good for a laugh only. > interface equipment. I've had a lot of stuff sitting for a long time. I'd > like to verify that it's working before I attack the larger task of > extracting at least seemingly useful work from the old clunkers. Thats an advantage I have. I have many s100 and other cpm hardware all known good and running to work with. Then again thats the reason I have them so I can use them. The S100 systems I have a board of my design and it is quite simple in that it buffers address and supplies the low 4 bits of it, a set of qualified selects, buffered IO_read IO_write, reset/, clock(2mhz), wait/, interrupts and a bidirectional 8bit bus. This makes IO projects as trivial as ISA-8 or STD. All brough out on a 50 pin ribbon (alternate grounds) as a short 1-2ft cable bus. This matches the Visual1050 bus port (very similar) and the VT180 board I hack with that as a similar mod. Makes hardware experiementation easy. This is something I implmented many years ago. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 18 08:27:01 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE In-Reply-To: <007501bfa8f5$f86b51e0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Apr 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Well, I've got one drive, an ST351, I think it is, that responds to the > 8-bit conditioning. It's a 1.25"-tall 3-1/2" drive, of 44 MB capacity. > That's not what I want for the "hard-card" on the S-100. I have two of them. Never thought to try them as they are slow and very old. > All your assertions about the relative folly of expending effort/resources > to make the drive talk-8-bits wide has no real purpose except to bind it to > its historical roots. I'd bet that the logic in the 1003-WAH uses the > data-width bit to enable the IOCS16- signal and thereby lets the AT bus > control whether the transfer is 8 or 16 bits wide, since the AT bus is > required to do that. Flog thyself if you care to. ;) Oh, the 1003WAH DOES NOT respond to set_16bits. Before I ahd IDE drives to experiment with I tried it. it still lost every other byte, just didn't generate the signal(IOCS16). The 1003 was never useable in ISA-8 (xt bus). What I did do instead was to use a WD1002WXA to make that interface as it was already ISA-8 and easy to interface as a 8-bit controller. Wrote an article for TCJ about it. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 18 08:33:18 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE In-Reply-To: <007b01bfa8f7$51a4b340$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Apr 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > My experience with Q-Bus I/O was always spoon-fed via a DRV11-WA card. That I find that an awkward interface. Handy though. > serves to isolate my problems from "theirs." Would it be better done > without the DRV11-WA? It would seem to me that, since the DE timing spec is yes. > straighforward, and probably every bit as fast as anything ANY DEC box with > a Q-Bus can manage. The data I/O comes through a single address, so only > that one address has to be word-wide, not to say it can't be. I do wonder > whether the Q-Bus can generate the appropriate addresses, however, without > hardware help. A bit of steering would, I believe, suffice to make the > interface work from a word-wide bus. Qbus output address at Bsync/ (like 8085 ALE) and you latch the address off the databus, plus BBS7 (bankselect 7 is the IOpage) and theres your address. The nest part of the cycle is typically an IO_read with an optional IO_write to follow. What makes doing IDE on PDP11 is the read before write to the same address (plays havoc with device resgisters). the simple solution is to map all reads to base+0 to base+n and writes to base+N to Base+n+n so reads do not overlap writes. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 18 08:36:40 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE In-Reply-To: <200004180558.XAA32266@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Apr 2000, Jim Strickland wrote: > I know someone has made an ide hard card for the 8 bit apple 2 bus that takes > modern IDE drives, including the 1 inch notebook drives. I'm unclear how it > was done, but you can buy one at www.allelec.com/harddiap.htm . It maps the high Byte to low byte like most do. There si also a coco-ide mod that works the same way. the drawings for the COCO ide is suggest a simple design as well but expects the IDE to be 16bits for data as do most otehrs I've seen. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 18 08:44:42 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE In-Reply-To: <38FBCD2A.23453.13DD773@localhost> Message-ID: > > I think this is a good cross section > > Whoa, good cross section, and missed the ST351A/X? This is one > of rare drives that can be jumpered for either physical 16bit or 8bit > mode. I have two of them, acient and SLOW. Being slow on the media was only part of slow as writing/reading them from a 8mhz z80 was not possible due to the on board logic being slow too, they would be fine with 4mhz z80. Also they talk a dialect of IDE that is not completely compatable with later drives. I never tried them nor the two odball 8bit wide drives (one is on a XT hardcard and the other out of a PS2/30). Why? if they ever died I'd have to go through the whole mess again with the 16bit IDE. Since part of the effort in my case was lower power, higher performance the later drives were more appealing. For example later drives with 64k cache (quantums) made CP/M perform better as seeks were masked and 64k was a generous cache for that. Allison From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Tue Apr 18 09:23:24 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: IBM 3200 Message-ID: <20000418142325.59714.qmail@hotmail.com> Or an 8100 series minicomputer for that matter... they're not exclusively mainframe devices, I know the DPPX/SP manuals for my 8100's tell how to attach those devices to the 8100, not to mention that you can also attach a Series/1, 3270 PC, Displaywriter, etc. Will J ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Tue Apr 18 09:37:21 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: Drums Message-ID: <20000418143721.47606.qmail@hotmail.com> Hi, I think I heard somewhere that magnetic drums are somewhat like core memory, i.e. they retain their contents when shut off... I believe I read this in the IBM 704 manual, so I'm not entirely certain that facts about those drums (8192 36-bit words!) can really be applied to the drums I'm going to be getting, which are from Vermont Research and are approximately 256K or so.. Also, does anyone know what other computer companies used drums from Vermont Research? They're for my Interdata 7/32, but I know at least Varian used Vermont Research drums... any others? Will J ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 18 09:46:53 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE References: <200004180558.XAA32266@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <000d01bfa944$f0e0d540$0400c0a8@winbook> No, I'm not, but I wish I had 10% of his weekly take . . . Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ford To: Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2000 1:29 AM Subject: Re: 8-bit IDE > >However, it seems to me that, if there is supposed to be a means built into > >the "standard" interface by means of which I can avoid having to deal with > >the conversion to/from words on the data port, I should exploit that > >feature. Finding the drives that support that feature is then the crux, but > >it should be achievable. In no case will it be of any significant economic > >value. > > By day you're the main system architect at MicroSoft right? ;) > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 18 09:55:44 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE References: Message-ID: <001b01bfa946$2cc55d00$0400c0a8@winbook> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2000 7:21 AM Subject: Re: 8-bit IDE > On Mon, 17 Apr 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > The S100 systems I have a board of my design and it is quite simple in > that it buffers address and supplies the low 4 bits of it, a set of > qualified selects, buffered IO_read IO_write, reset/, clock(2mhz), wait/, > interrupts and a bidirectional 8bit bus. This makes IO projects as > trivial as ISA-8 or STD. All brough out on a 50 pin ribbon (alternate > grounds) as a short 1-2ft cable bus. This matches the Visual1050 bus port > (very similar) and the VT180 board I hack with that as a similar mod. > Makes hardware experiementation easy. This is something I implmented > many years ago. > It's not at all strange that you've arrived at that conclusion. I did the same thing with a channel similar to the WD100x-05 channel, which, by the way, is normally on a 40-conductor cable with alternate grounds. I even built one for the XT, back when those were the common box. That, by the way, is quite somewhat reminiscent of what the IMSAI folks put on their PIO6 board. It's what lives on that little 26-conductor (2x13) in the middle of their PIO6's top edge. It gives you a channel for external expansion. > > Allison > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Apr 18 11:53:11 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: Drums In-Reply-To: <20000418143721.47606.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <200004181454.e3IEssG21746@mail2.siemens.de> > I think I heard somewhere that magnetic drums are somewhat like core memory, > i.e. they retain their contents when shut off... Well, Drums are just a spcial kind of disk - it's a geometrical phenomena - a disk where all tracks have the same length :=) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 18 10:07:34 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE References: Message-ID: <002101bfa947$d3f23020$0400c0a8@winbook> plz see comments below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2000 7:27 AM Subject: Re: 8-bit IDE > On Mon, 17 Apr 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Well, I've got one drive, an ST351, I think it is, that responds to the > > 8-bit conditioning. It's a 1.25"-tall 3-1/2" drive, of 44 MB capacity. > > That's not what I want for the "hard-card" on the S-100. > > I have two of them. Never thought to try them as they are slow and very > old. > ... and they're of about the right capacity for an old-style CP/M setup, if you want to be true to the period. They make the typical parallel-port-driven SMD or other setup typical of the 1976-1981 timeframe look pretty bad, though. > > > All your assertions about the relative folly of expending effort/resources > The 1003 was never useable in ISA-8 (xt bus). > That's understandable since the IOCS16- is on the C-D connector. The missing bit, BTW, is probably not on the 'WAH board, and it's SET for 8-bit mode in the IDE standard. If you only use A-B, you won't see it and, by the way, neither will the ISA bus, hence its standard (only because almost everyone faithfully copied IBM) logic for steering the bytes in that signal's absense, would try to shuffle the outgoing bytes into an 8-bit window on the A-B connector only. On reads, you'd be in trouble, since half the bytes would be missing. The ISA bus' response to IOCS16- is to enable the high-order bus buffers on the little C-D connector. > > What I did do instead was to use a WD1002WXA to make that interface > as it was already ISA-8 and easy to interface as a 8-bit controller. > Wrote an article for TCJ about it. > I have one old data book from WD that has some of the XT-type controllers in it, but lacks that one. What are the characteristics of this one? > > Allison > From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Tue Apr 18 10:11:59 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: Drums In-Reply-To: <20000418143721.47606.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <000001bfa948$71f19360$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> > I think I heard somewhere that magnetic drums are somewhat > like core memory, i.e. they retain their contents when shut > off... Drums are probably more analagous to the modern HDD given that it is record by moving head on magnetic media. That or a single grotesquely magnified loop of magnetic tape. --all based on academic study Of course both the MT and HDD are persistent. Perhaps there are even ex-drum repairmen on the list? From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 18 10:09:15 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: Drums In-Reply-To: <20000418143721.47606.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: > Hi, > I think I heard somewhere that magnetic drums are somewhat like core memory, > i.e. they retain their contents when shut off... I believe I read this in Actually they are cylindrical disks with multiple heads in parallel so that you can write a word or read one rather than serializing the bits. Drums were used on PDP-8s, PDP-10s and likely others for small storage or more commonly swapping out contents of memory. Think of this if you can read or write a word in 1/1800(or 2400rpm) or a block of core eaqually as fast swapping is viable to expensive and hard to get memory. > getting, which are from Vermont Research and are approximately 256K or so.. > Also, does anyone know what other computer companies used drums from Vermont > Research? They're for my Interdata 7/32, but I know at least Varian used > Vermont Research drums... any others? Oh, I'd love to get one. the last time I played with drum was 23+ years ago and it was a small 14bit wide by 8192 word affair I used as a fast disk till it died mechanically. Allison From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 18 10:13:01 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE References: Message-ID: <002701bfa948$96bbe920$0400c0a8@winbook> please see embedded comments below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2000 7:33 AM Subject: Re: 8-bit IDE > On Mon, 17 Apr 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > My experience with Q-Bus I/O was always spoon-fed via a DRV11-WA card. That > > Qbus output address at Bsync/ (like 8085 ALE) and you latch the address > off the databus, plus BBS7 (bankselect 7 is the IOpage) and theres your > address. The next part of the cycle is typically an IO_read with an > optional IO_write to follow. What makes doing IDE on PDP11 is the read > before write to the same address (plays havoc with device resgisters). > the simple solution is to map all reads to base+0 to base+n and writes > to base+N to Base+n+n so reads do not overlap writes. > So you'd advocate essentially using the Write signal (forgive me if I don't remember which name that one wore) as an address line, kind of like the AMPRO folks did on their FDC? > > Allison > > From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 18 10:13:01 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE In-Reply-To: <001b01bfa946$2cc55d00$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: > It's not at all strange that you've arrived at that conclusion. I did the > same thing with a channel similar to the WD100x-05 channel, which, by the Save for V1 of that (still in use) was built on a SSM IO-1 in 1979. V2 (1981) was a lower parts count version that used 244s instead of 8212s. Seemed a better way to get out from under the need for about 7 peices of ttl every time I wanted to build an IO for S100. Allison From stuart at zen.co.uk Tue Apr 18 10:13:27 2000 From: stuart at zen.co.uk (Stuart Birchall) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: wtd: cray el series Message-ID: <017501bfa948$a7fa4740$120917d4@zen.co.uk> Hi, looking for a defunct cray el series, in the UK. Thanks, Stu Stuart Birchall ----------------------------------------- Network Consultant Zen Internet http://home.zen.co.uk Tel: 01706 713714 x 217 From jpl15 at netcom.com Tue Apr 18 10:33:15 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: Drums In-Reply-To: <200004181454.e3IEssG21746@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Apr 2000, Hans Franke wrote: > > > I think I heard somewhere that magnetic drums are somewhat like core memory, > > i.e. they retain their contents when shut off... > > Well, Drums are just a spcial kind of disk - it's a > geometrical phenomena - a disk where all tracks have > the same length :=) Which is why we still refer to disk data structures as 'cylinders'... on the surface of a drum, that's the geometric shape they occupy. On my old Bendix G-15, the clock tracks were also on the drum, allowing the use of a standard 1/4hp induction motor. I have also seen reference to slow-cycling a drum computer by disconnecting the motor and turning the shaft by hand. And now they have 340M hard drives built into FlashCard memory chips for my digital camera...... Cheerz John From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Tue Apr 18 11:37:05 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: Drums In-Reply-To: ; from John Lawson on Tue, Apr 18, 2000 at 08:33:15AM -0700 References: <200004181454.e3IEssG21746@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <20000418093705.A1753@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Tue, Apr 18, 2000 at 08:33:15AM -0700, John Lawson wrote: > Which is why we still refer to disk data structures as > 'cylinders'... on the surface of a drum, that's the geometric shape > they occupy. Well the set of all the same-numbered tracks on a stack of hard drive platters also form a cylinder... I thought that was the reason. -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 18 11:40:24 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE In-Reply-To: <002101bfa947$d3f23020$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: > ... and they're of about the right capacity for an old-style CP/M setup, if > you want to be true to the period. They make the typical > parallel-port-driven SMD or other setup typical of the 1976-1981 timeframe > look pretty bad, though. I do have one of those 8inch monsters, runs too. However you seem to assume that many of the CP/M systems I have are required to be of "period" design. FOO on that. I have many that are simply restored and they stay that way. However I have several that are upgraded where possible to get more performance for actual practical use. Those systems run faster Z80s or have SCSI, big IDE (by CPM standards) and the like. > I have one old data book from WD that has some of the XT-type controllers in > it, but lacks that one. What are the characteristics of this one? So do I, but I built a useable controller from it without that. Actually there are three versions of the 1002 for the Xt bus, all look different but operate the same due to the base chip, the 1100 series. I used some PC source software , plus PC programming books to figure out the registers. It was a very black box approach but I got a working MFM subsystem that works well. The end result looks like a 1002-HDO in many respects. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 18 11:44:37 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE In-Reply-To: <002701bfa948$96bbe920$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: > So you'd advocate essentially using the Write signal (forgive me if I don't > remember which name that one wore) as an address line, kind of like the > AMPRO folks did on their FDC? Thats one way. Allison From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Apr 18 12:36:20 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: Drums In-Reply-To: <20000418093705.A1753@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> References: <200004181454.e3IEssG21746@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <4.1.20000418102629.042ba7b0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 09:37 AM 4/18/00 -0700, Shawn wrote: >Well the set of all the same-numbered tracks on a stack of hard drive >platters also form a cylinder... I thought that was the reason. My understanding of this, and I believe the source was Bill Joy when I was over at Sun describing the Berkeley "Fast File System" is as follows: Both John and Shawn are correct. The derivation of the term "cylinder" for disk geometry descriptions came from the fact that in a multi-headed drive, Track 'n' on all platters formed one cylinder. Given that disks had a hard time seeking quickly, things that you could put on one cylinder could be accessed like a drum without any head movement. In BSD they added "cylinder groups" which were collections of cylinders (usually 3, sometimes 5) where the heads need only move in our out one or two steps from the "home" cylinder to get to a particular bit of data. Then by clustering data into cylinder groups you could acheive higher disk throughput then if you put things onto any old track. --Chuck From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Tue Apr 18 13:22:51 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: Drums In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000418102629.042ba7b0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>; from Chuck McManis on Tue, Apr 18, 2000 at 10:36:20AM -0700 References: <200004181454.e3IEssG21746@mail2.siemens.de> <20000418093705.A1753@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> <4.1.20000418102629.042ba7b0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <20000418112250.E1753@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Tue, Apr 18, 2000 at 10:36:20AM -0700, Chuck McManis wrote: > Track 'n' on all platters formed one cylinder. Given that disks had a hard > time seeking quickly, things that you could put on one cylinder could be > accessed like a drum without any head movement. In BSD they added "cylinder > groups" which were collections of cylinders (usually 3, sometimes 5) where > the heads need only move in our out one or two steps from the "home" > cylinder to get to a particular bit of data. Then by clustering data into > cylinder groups you could acheive higher disk throughput then if you put > things onto any old track. Somebody once told me that the definition of a "real pro" database admin is somebody who can put the right tables on the right cylinders to optimize throughput. But I didn't know it was an OS-level feature... guess it would have to be. -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 18 13:43:52 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: Drums In-Reply-To: <20000418112250.E1753@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> Message-ID: > Somebody once told me that the definition of a "real pro" database admin > is somebody who can put the right tables on the right cylinders to > optimize throughput. But I didn't know it was an OS-level feature... > guess it would have to be. people who do tu58 for VAX730 or RT11 on pdp11 know this trick well. After all rewinding a tape for one file out of order can easily cost 20-30 seconds! Allison From jlewczyk at his.com Tue Apr 18 14:20:03 2000 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: test - please ignore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001bfa96b$193260b0$013da8c0@Corellian> Test post to this newsgroup. Sorry for the intrusion. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Apr 18 13:44:43 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE In-Reply-To: <001301bfa7f8$187c71c0$0400c0a8@winbook> (edick@idcomm.com) References: <001d01bfa7ae$b172c4a0$0400c0a8@winbook> <20000416122110.A29941@dbit.dbit.com> <001301bfa7f8$187c71c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <20000418184443.24024.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > Frankly, the reason I'm exploring this is because with the 8-bit mode, I > don't have to buffer the data at all beyond the on-board data-in and data > out buffers at the bus interface. However, it doesn't matter if 8-bit IDE was standardized (at one time, but not any more), if there aren't any available disk drives that do it. It seems much more worthwhile to add the extra latch, buffer, and logic to make 16-bit IDE work, since then you can use readily available drives. This reminds me a little bit of the story of the main memory for the IBM 704 and 705 computers, as given in the book _IBM's Early Computers_ (regrettably out of print). IBM had previously shipped the 701 and 702 computers using electrostatic (Williams tube) memory, but it was found to be unreliable, so IBM was in the process of replacing it all with new core memory. Meanwhile, the product teams for the replacement computers, the 704 and 705, decided to use electrostatic storage rather than core because it was cheaper. The decision was overruled by Tom Watson Jr., who said something to the effect that choosing something that didn't work because it was cheaper than something that did was the damndest business decision he'd ever heard of. Of course, if IBM was structured into separate profit centers for new computer sales vs. repair, you can see why the managers for new computer sales would make that decision. Pacific Bell does the same sort of stupid stuff. Installers will routinely steal working and in-use pairs from one customer for new service for another. It makes their statistics look good, and repair service is stuck with fixing the original service, which isn't the installer's problem. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Apr 18 13:53:07 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: IBM 3200 In-Reply-To: (at258@osfn.org) References: Message-ID: <20000418185307.24082.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Merle K. Peirce" wrote: > This past week we received a few IBM bits that seem to have formed a > single system. They are a 3274 which has an 8 inch drive, a 3279 > monitor, and a small 3102 printer. It's not a "system" in the sense of "computer system", because there's no computer there. The 3274 is a terminal controller for 327x terminals such as the 3279. Didn't you get a keyboard with the 3279? From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 18 15:06:17 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE References: Message-ID: <001301bfa971$8ef54320$0400c0a8@winbook> NO! It's not a requirement at all, but I do find it aesthically preferable to use same-generation hardware together. That's just a personal preference, however. If you want to run your IMSAI with an ESDI interface, and use a flat-panel display for the console and talk to other systems on the MBEthernet, it's entirely up to your. It is, after all, YOUR computer, not mine. I find it strange somehow, to see a living room furnished in '70's Spanish style with a '50's danish-modern coffee table and a strictly art-deco set of lamps, vases, and pictures, but if one can do it, one can do it tastefully. I have a selection of 8" drives and controllers, and several of the early 5-1/4" full-height models as well. A few years back, I gave away my 20 MB Century Data Marksman. which was one of those 14" drives with a parallel port interface on it (driven by a couple of ports in a 6821 PIA.) I made an S-100 board for a co-worker to use in combination with one of the 1/3-card WD HDC's from the XT generation, together with a 1/3-card Hercules-style graphics/monochrome text board. Using what he knew about the keyboard, he built an interface to an XT-class keyboard and hooked his monitor up to the mono card, thereby giving himself access to quite a bit of hardware with very little hassle. The driver code (maybe not the best of it, though) is in the IBM tech ref manual. The HDC is quite straightforward. The XT-keyboard interface was a piece of programmable logic, possibly a MOT MCU. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2000 10:40 AM Subject: Re: 8-bit IDE > > ... and they're of about the right capacity for an old-style CP/M setup, if > > you want to be true to the period. They make the typical > > parallel-port-driven SMD or other setup typical of the 1976-1981 timeframe > > look pretty bad, though. > > I do have one of those 8-inch monsters, runs too. However you seem to > assume that many of the CP/M systems I have are required to be of "period" > design. FOO on that. I have many that are simply restored and they stay > that way. However I have several that are upgraded where possible to get > more performance for actual practical use. Those systems run faster Z80s > or have SCSI, big IDE (by CPM standards) and the like. > > > I have one old data book from WD that has some of the XT-type controllers in > > it, but lacks that one. What are the characteristics of this one? > > So do I, but I built a useable controller from it without that. Actually > there are three versions of the 1002 for the Xt bus, all look different > but operate the same due to the base chip, the 1100 series. I used some > PC source software , plus PC programming books to figure out the > registers. It was a very black box approach but I got a working MFM > subsystem that works well. The end result looks like a 1002-HDO in many > respects. > > Allison > > From at258 at osfn.org Tue Apr 18 15:05:31 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: IBM 3200 In-Reply-To: <20000418185307.24082.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: Actually, we got about 20 keyboards. It seems odd that the controller has a floppy drive. What was the purpose? Software upgrades? On 18 Apr 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > "Merle K. Peirce" wrote: > > This past week we received a few IBM bits that seem to have formed a > > single system. They are a 3274 which has an 8 inch drive, a 3279 > > monitor, and a small 3102 printer. > > It's not a "system" in the sense of "computer system", because there's > no computer there. The 3274 is a terminal controller for 327x terminals > such as the 3279. Didn't you get a keyboard with the 3279? > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 18 15:17:45 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: Sharp PC1211 In-Reply-To: <200004180856.e3I8ukG24554@mail2.siemens.de> from "Hans Franke" at Apr 18, 0 10:56:04 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 626 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000418/dbee63e9/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 18 15:34:34 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE In-Reply-To: <001301bfa971$8ef54320$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: > preference, however. If you want to run your IMSAI with an ESDI interface, If I had an IMSAI it would be restored. Hwoever I have two NS* Horizons one virgin, teh other my 1978 unit hacked six ways from sunday mostly during the winter of 1980, that in itself if art too. > the MBEthernet, it's entirely up to your. It is, after all, YOUR computer, > not mine. I find it strange somehow, to see a living room furnished in > '70's Spanish style with a '50's danish-modern coffee table and a strictly To me a compupro crate is not anything but an empty room and has no style other than good construction rules. What I choose to put in it should have order "fung shui" as it were but that doesn't rule mixing old and new if done sanely. I can do that as I have multiples of many of the machines that are actively hacked. Nothing is lost, knowledge is both preserved and added to. Allison From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Apr 18 15:39:12 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:51 2005 Subject: IBM 3200 Message-ID: <20000418203912.25031.qmail@web614.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Merle K. Peirce" wrote: > > Actually, we got about 20 keyboards. It seems odd that the controller > has a floppy drive. What was the purpose? Software upgrades? Microcode, IIRC. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 18 16:16:37 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:52 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE References: <001d01bfa7ae$b172c4a0$0400c0a8@winbook> <20000416122110.A29941@dbit.dbit.com> <001301bfa7f8$187c71c0$0400c0a8@winbook> <20000418184443.24024.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <001e01bfa97b$62431be0$0400c0a8@winbook> You're correct all right, Eric, but I'm not interested in making ANY IDE drive work. I'm interested in the ones too small to bring even $10 at the flea market, i.e. the ones that are 10x what I need but only cost $6 or so. I'm not headed for production, and I'm not getting paid, so I want it to be simple to build. I can hunt a little for the appropriately optioned drives, if they exist in the form factor I need. It takes more than a latch, by the way, since you have to latch and hold the low byte on writes, and the high byte on reads, in order not to screw up the order of the bytes. Consequently, you need not only the two latches, but a bit of logic to effect the byte steering on reads and to perform the write after the CPU does the write, since the only time you can guarantee data valid is at the very end of the write strobe. The reason I'm whoring after the few drives with this feature included is that when this feature was available, if at all, the popular drives were of about the "right" capacity for the typical application of CP/M. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Eric Smith To: Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2000 12:44 PM Subject: Re: 8-bit IDE > "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > > Frankly, the reason I'm exploring this is because with the 8-bit mode, I > > don't have to buffer the data at all beyond the on-board data-in and data > > out buffers at the bus interface. > > However, it doesn't matter if 8-bit IDE was standardized (at one time, > but not any more), if there aren't any available disk drives that do it. > It seems much more worthwhile to add the extra latch, buffer, and logic > to make 16-bit IDE work, since then you can use readily available > drives. > > This reminds me a little bit of the story of the main memory for the > IBM 704 and 705 computers, as given in the book _IBM's Early Computers_ > (regrettably out of print). IBM had previously shipped the 701 and 702 > computers using electrostatic (Williams tube) memory, but it was found to > be unreliable, so IBM was in the process of replacing it all with new > core memory. > > Meanwhile, the product teams for the replacement computers, the 704 and 705, > decided to use electrostatic storage rather than core because it was cheaper. > The decision was overruled by Tom Watson Jr., who said something to the > effect that choosing something that didn't work because it was cheaper than > something that did was the damndest business decision he'd ever heard of. > > Of course, if IBM was structured into separate profit centers for new > computer sales vs. repair, you can see why the managers for new computer > sales would make that decision. Pacific Bell does the same sort of stupid > stuff. Installers will routinely steal working and in-use pairs from one > customer for new service for another. It makes their statistics look good, > and repair service is stuck with fixing the original service, which isn't > the installer's problem. > > Eric From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 18 16:22:32 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:52 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE References: Message-ID: <002801bfa97c$35d8c220$0400c0a8@winbook> I've never seen a CompuPro ANYTHING I liked. However, there's no accounting for taste. You mustn't forget, BTW, that I'm not a collector, except in the sense that I haven't thrown some things away because I remember what they cost me. The S-100 stuff was pretty easy to deal with back when you could make a living with that sort of thing. Though I found the INTEL boards for the multibus-1 somewhat better designed, they were so much more costly, I couldn't, in good conscience, recommend them if an S-100 board, otherwise equivalent, cost 10% as much, as was often the case. Of course, I have a real bunch of Multibus-1 stuff because it was always up to the mark. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2000 2:34 PM Subject: Re: 8-bit IDE > > > preference, however. If you want to run your IMSAI with an ESDI interface, > > If I had an IMSAI it would be restored. Hwoever I have two NS* Horizons > one virgin, teh other my 1978 unit hacked six ways from sunday mostly > during the winter of 1980, that in itself if art too. > > > the MBEthernet, it's entirely up to you. It is, after all, YOUR computer, > > not mine. I find it strange somehow, to see a living room furnished in > > '70's Spanish style with a '50's danish-modern coffee table and a strictly > > To me a compupro crate is not anything but an empty room and has no style > other than good construction rules. What I choose to put in it should > have order "fung shui" as it were but that doesn't rule mixing old and new > if done sanely. > > I can do that as I have multiples of many of the machines that are > actively hacked. Nothing is lost, knowledge is both preserved and > added to. > > Allison > From oliv555 at arrl.net Tue Apr 18 16:42:16 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:52 2005 Subject: Drums References: <20000418143721.47606.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <38FCD6B8.6D817BE@arrl.net> Every flight simulator I worked on in the late '60s to early '70s had these. Just before the advent of the mini-computer Link used to build their own computers, 24-bit, 20+cabinet beasties and used drums as main storage. Ours were not very reliable, requiring resurfacing every couple of years. Several companies came out with solid-stae replacements and most operators quickly jumped at these. We still have one of these dinosaurs (minus the drum) but its going out the door in two months. I won't miss it .... oops...guess thats blasphemous on this list... Will Jennings wrote: > Hi, > I think I heard somewhere that magnetic drums are somewhat like core memory, > i.e. they retain their contents when shut off... I believe I read this in > the IBM 704 manual, so I'm not entirely certain that facts about those drums > (8192 36-bit words!) can really be applied to the drums I'm going to be > getting, which are from Vermont Research and are approximately 256K or so.. > Also, does anyone know what other computer companies used drums from Vermont > Research? They're for my Interdata 7/32, but I know at least Varian used > Vermont Research drums... any others? > > Will J > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jlewczyk at his.com Tue Apr 18 17:58:38 2000 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:52 2005 Subject: Looking for software/docs for MacADIOS 411 product In-Reply-To: <000001bfa96b$193260b0$013da8c0@Corellian> Message-ID: <000301bfa989$a1fb06e0$013da8c0@Corellian> I recently picked up a really neat peripheral device for very early Macs. Its labelled "MacADIOS model 411" and is a laboratory instrument interface supporting both digital and analog inputs and outputs. It communicated via the seral port of the mac (a 9-pin DIN, so you know it for early Macs!). At its core is a 6502 cpu and looks to have been made around the mid 80's. Problem is, I have no SOFTWARE or MANUALS for it. Can anyone help me out? I've contacted the company that manufactured it (GW Instruments, Cambridge, MA) and they have no information available on their old device and the best I could get them to do is post a request on their lunchroom cork board. I've gotten no response to that in over a month. Thanks in advance, John Lewczyk From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Apr 18 17:01:22 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:52 2005 Subject: IBM 3200 In-Reply-To: (at258@osfn.org) References: Message-ID: <20000418220122.25187.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Actually, we got about 20 keyboards. It seems odd that the controller > has a floppy drive. What was the purpose? Software upgrades? The 3274 (or 3174) boots its operating software from the floppy. From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 18 17:11:15 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:52 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE Message-ID: <001701bfa983$373344e0$7564c0d0@ajp166> >drive work. I'm interested in the ones too small to bring even $10 at the >flea market, i.e. the ones that are 10x what I need but only cost $6 or so. Ok that ranges up to maybe 500mb now. >It takes more than a latch, by the way, since you have to latch and hold the >low byte on writes, and the high byte on reads, in order not to screw up the >order of the bytes. Consequently, you need not only the two latches, but a >bit of logic to effect the byte steering on reads and to perform the write >after the CPU does the write, since the only time you can guarantee data >valid is at the very end of the write strobe. Limited logic, one latch. No rule said only one address for the data read or write. >The reason I'm whoring after the few drives with this feature included is >that when this feature was available, if at all, the popular drives were of >about the "right" capacity for the typical application of CP/M. Of course when the IMSAI and Altair were around that would be casette tape, 8" floppy (SSSD 256k) or maybe minifloppy (80k). Better find two as likely they will be so old that any reliability has been run out of them. The nice part of a real 16bit interface is if it fails any drive make a good replacement even if I dont choose to use all of it. that and despite the claim that 8080 and cpm was slow they do run better with fast drives and ramdisks proved that. So a fast drive (13-15ms or so, 4500rpm) with a cache of say 32-256k does indeed improve perfomance. Since IDE has been done for CPM (several articles in TCJ) and SCSI even longer the idea of the right size is really a red herring to me. In the CPM world the right size was literally whatever you had or could get you hands on, the bigger the better. Even the deblocking example in the CP/M-2.0 alteration guide they talk about how taking advantage of it enabled a 35mb drive to be formatted using larger sectors to 57mb with better perfomance. that was written in 1981. The concept was the abiltiy to interface to almost any storage hardware via an extensable BIOS. My current project is to take CP/M V2.2 and capitalize on P2DOS (suprbdos, novados, Zrdos etal) clones and add a heirarchal directory to get past the former flat structure (user areas helped only a little) and stay compatable with apps that ran under V2.2. After all I want is better and not obsolete perfectly good software. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 18 16:42:42 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:52 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE Message-ID: <001601bfa983$36621230$7564c0d0@ajp166> From: Richard Erlacher >I've never seen a CompuPro ANYTHING I liked. However, there's no >accounting for taste. Well the basic box with terminated mother board cant have ben that bad since it was widely copied. >You mustn't forget, BTW, that I'm not a collector, except in the sense that >I haven't thrown some things away because I remember what they cost me. I never said I was. Some of my sysstems are working systems because I bought them 20+ years ago to do exactly that, work. Improving them is reasonable in that context. The reast are collected because I wanted one back when and could never afford it. Now I get to play with it. >Of course, I have a real bunch of Multibus-1 stuff because it was always up >to the mark. I have MB1 and MBII systems as well plus boards made by my former (four lifetimes ago) for MB as well. Nice stuff, big, sophisticated often very fast or very slow. Allison From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 18 19:08:29 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:52 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE References: <001701bfa983$373344e0$7564c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <000b01bfa993$71499e80$0400c0a8@winbook> please see embedded comments below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: allisonp To: Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2000 4:11 PM Subject: Re: 8-bit IDE > >drive work. I'm interested in the ones too small to bring even $10 at the > >flea market, i.e. the ones that are 10x what I need but only cost $6 or so. > > > Ok that ranges up to maybe 500mb now. > Boggles the mind, doesn't it? I remember that I paid $1250 for the first ST506 I bought. It even said Shugart Technology rather than Seagate Technology . That was 5 MB. > > >It takes more than a latch, by the way, since you have to latch and hold > the > >low byte on writes, and the high byte on reads, in order not to screw up > >the order of the bytes. Consequently, you need not only the two latches, but > > abit of logic to effect the byte steering on reads and to perform the write > >after the CPU does the write, since the only time you can guarantee data > >valid is at the very end of the write strobe. > > > Limited logic, one latch. No rule said only one address for the data read > or write. > Well, if you're willing to believe that what's in the timing diagrams, after you see they clearly violate other spec's, you can do that. I prefer to latch the data to ensure that I have it. Likewise, whether I have to write two locations or the same one twice, the data has to be latched. You also have to have bidirectional buffers. If you use anything other than a '646..'654 type device, which won't work the way that's needed because they're edge-triggered, you'll run up the parts count. After all, you have to latch the low byte on writes and the high byte on reads. I think saving parts by leaving out functionality is risky here. If you write the high byte to the latch first, then write the low byte AND high byte, in a single unlatched write for the low byte, it may work, but now you can't use those handy instructions that make the Z-80 handier than the 8080/8085. IMHO, once you have more than two components you have to look at programmable logic. I'm convinced that a CPLD, a small one, in fact, is the correct solution here, except in the case of an 8-bit capable drive, in which case no logic at all is needed, beyond what's already there. > > >The reason I'm whoring after the few drives with this feature included is > >that when this feature was available, if at all, the popular drives were of > >about the "right" capacity for the typical application of CP/M. > > Of course when the IMSAI and Altair were around that would be casette tape, > 8" floppy (SSSD 256k) or maybe minifloppy (80k). > > Better find two as likely they will be so old that any reliability has been > run out of them. > > The nice part of a real 16-bit interface is if it fails any drive make a good > replacement even if I dont choose to use all of it. that and despite the > claim that 8080 and cpm was slow they do run better with fast drives and > ramdisks proved that. So a fast drive (13-15ms or so, 4500rpm) with a > cache of say 32-256k does indeed improve perfomance. > > Since IDE has been done for CPM (several articles in TCJ) and SCSI > even longer the idea of the right size is really a red herring to me. In the > CPM world the right size was literally whatever you had or could get > you hands on, the bigger the better. Even the deblocking example > in the CP/M-2.0 alteration guide they talk about how taking advantage > of it enabled a 35mb drive to be formatted using larger sectors to 57mb > with better perfomance. that was written in 1981. The concept was the > abiltiy to interface to almost any storage hardware via an extensible BIOS. > Yes, it's been done, and if I'm going to do the 16-bit interface, I'm going to do it with what's essentially their code. That means a pretty similar interface, which, by the way, is pretty minimal. It does latch both bytes of the data at the port. > > My current project is to take CP/M V2.2 and capitalize on P2DOS (suprbdos, > novados, Zrdos etal) clones and add a heirarchal directory to get past the > former flat structure (user areas helped only a little) and stay compatable > with apps that ran under V2.2. After all I want is better and not obsolete > perfectly good software. > What matters to me more than making the extended versions of CP/M work, is making the REAL CP/M work. > > Allison > From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue Apr 18 19:29:20 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:52 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE In-Reply-To: <001701bfa983$373344e0$7564c0d0@ajp166>; from allisonp@world.std.com on Tue, Apr 18, 2000 at 06:11:15PM -0400 References: <001701bfa983$373344e0$7564c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <20000418202920.A6466@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Apr 18, 2000 at 06:11:15PM -0400, allisonp wrote: > Limited logic, one latch. No rule said only one address for the data read > or write. I'm curious, how can it be done with just one latch? In my ISA-8 thing, I used one latch for writing data, to hold the low byte until the PC writes the high byte. And another in the other direction, to catch the high byte when the PC reads the low byte. Then a 244 to allow writing the high byte, and a 245 for all other cases (including 8-bit register accesses). Is there some way I'm not thinking of, to flip one 373 around and use it in both directions??? John Wilson D Bit From cube1 at home.com Tue Apr 18 19:31:01 2000 From: cube1 at home.com (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:52 2005 Subject: Drums In-Reply-To: References: <20000418143721.47606.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.20000418192509.0564b840@cirithi> At 11:09 AM 4/18/00 -0400, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > Hi, > > I think I heard somewhere that magnetic drums are somewhat like core > memory, > > i.e. they retain their contents when shut off... I believe I read this in > >Actually they are cylindrical disks with multiple heads in parallel so >that you can write a word or read one rather than serializing the bits. > >Drums were used on PDP-8s, PDP-10s and likely others for small storage or >more commonly swapping out contents of memory. Think of this if you can >read or write a word in 1/1800(or 2400rpm) or a block of core eaqually as >fast swapping is viable to expensive and hard to get memory. I think it is helpful to distinguish between two different devices. One is a head-per-track disk, sometimes called a Fixed Head disk. DEC had several of those devices on their machines. The one I am most familiar with is the RC64 on my PDP-11, but there were also RF series drives for older machines. The generally had a disk platter, like a normal disk, but unlike a normal disk they had one head dedicated for each track on the disk -- no seeks! A drum, on the other hand, was cylindrical (hence the name). (The first audio records were cylindrical too, incidentally). Some drums were also head-per-track devices, but not all. Some had a head that moved from place to place along the drum. Univac called each such location a "position". There is no inherent reason why a drum would not necessarily serialize the data -- one could construct them either way, depending on the requirements. I am familiar with a couple of cases where the data was most definitely serialized: the IBM 650 and the Monrobot desk-sized computer. Jay --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection cube1@home.com visit http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Apr 18 18:37:17 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:52 2005 Subject: light bulbs for DEC front panels Message-ID: <20000418233717.27284.qmail@brouhaha.com> Does anyone have information on light bulbs for DEC front panels circa 1968, in particular from a KA10 panel? The bulbs in question have two metal pins. Some bear the legend "OL-1", and others have two rows of info, "PL10161" on above "1209169". There's temporarily a photo of one, next to a US penny for scale, at http://www.36bit.org/dec/bulb.jpg Would these be the same bulbs used on the PDP-8, PDP-8/I, or PDP-8/e? I'd like to get a manufacturer and part number of a currently available replacement. Or a source of old stock. I've been told that there were also plug-compatible LED lamps in red and green. These obviously must have contained a series current limiting resistor. Any info? Thanks! Eric From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Apr 18 20:20:11 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:52 2005 Subject: light bulbs for DEC front panels Message-ID: <000418212011.202000ea@trailing-edge.com> >Does anyone have information on light bulbs for DEC front panels >circa 1968, in particular from a KA10 panel? >I've been told that there were also plug-compatible LED lamps in red and >green. These obviously must have contained a series current limiting >resistor. Any info? If they're anything like the -8 front panels, there is also a "warming" current through the bulb. The aftermarket LED "upgrades" either had you snip the resistors that kept the prelight current flowing on the front panel drivers, or (more classy) they had divider networks in addition to current limiting to make sure the warming current didn't appreciably light the LED. It was about three years ago I posted an analysis of the divider method to alt.sys.pdp8. I'd be glad to dredge up those calculations here if there is any interest. The divider method is a little more complicated to solder up, but it's easier to go back to real light bulbs if/when you decide to go back to the "completely original" look. Tim. From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue Apr 18 20:30:56 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:52 2005 Subject: light bulbs for DEC front panels In-Reply-To: <20000418233717.27284.qmail@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "Apr 18, 2000 11:37:17 pm" Message-ID: <200004190130.UAA15472@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > Does anyone have information on light bulbs for DEC front panels > circa 1968, in particular from a KA10 panel? > > The bulbs in question have two metal pins. Some bear the legend > "OL-1", and others have two rows of info, "PL10161" on above "1209169". > > There's temporarily a photo of one, next to a US penny for scale, at > http://www.36bit.org/dec/bulb.jpg > > Would these be the same bulbs used on the PDP-8, PDP-8/I, or PDP-8/e? I have a bunch of PL10160, 1209219 bulbs. Same question, what PDP's and/or peripherals might these work in? -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu > > I'd like to get a manufacturer and part number of a currently available > replacement. Or a source of old stock. > > I've been told that there were also plug-compatible LED lamps in red and > green. These obviously must have contained a series current limiting > resistor. Any info? > > Thanks! > Eric > From nerdware at laidbak.com Tue Apr 18 21:30:05 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:52 2005 Subject: Time to thin out the collection Message-ID: <200004190230.VAA00907@garcon.laidbak.com> Hello, boys and girls. I've come to the realization that I have too much stuff. I'm building a small Mac-based production studio in my basement so I can start do theatrical sound effects in my spare time, and I'd like to finally get started on the model rr layout. Unfortunately, due to the stupid laws of physics, I only have a fixed amount of space to do all this in. I looked over all the shelves, and realized that I have been given many machines that I'm really not interested in keeping, so therefore I'm thinning the herd down to the key pieces. I'll put together a list over the upcoming weekend if anyone's interested, but since most of what I'm getting rid of is big stuff (big in the desktop/laptop sort of world, not big as in the "I've got a roomful of PDP stuff" sense......) so I'd like to not have to ship it. If you're in the NW Indiana/Chicago region and might be interested in some older IBM stuff, some Kaypro II's, and other miscellany, please email me off-list and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. I'll be tied up most of this week, but I'll try to answer quickly. I'd hate to just scrap this stuff, as I'm sure someone can make use of it. I just plain ran out of room and would like to have part of my basement back..... Thanks. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 18 21:30:28 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:52 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE Message-ID: <004101bfa9a7$65b50d20$7564c0d0@ajp166> >Boggles the mind, doesn't it? I remember that I paid $1250 for the first >ST506 I bought. It even said Shugart Technology rather than Seagate >Technology . That was 5 MB. Managed to get my St506 in mid 81 for much less than half that. connections. >Well, if you're willing to believe that what's in the timing diagrams, after >you see they clearly violate other spec's, you can do that. I prefer to >latch the data to ensure that I have it. Likewise, whether I have to write >two locations or the same one twice, the data has to be latched. You also Didnt' say you didn't need the latch only you didnt need an extra FF to track the silo status. >'646..'654 type device, which won't work the way that's needed because >they're edge-triggered, you'll run up the parts count. After all, you have >to latch the low byte on writes and the high byte on reads. I think saving What about 573s? Thats what I used. though the proto used ls373s. >parts by leaving out functionality is risky here. If you write the high >byte to the latch first, then write the low byte AND high byte, in a single >unlatched write for the low byte, it may work, but now you can't use those >handy instructions that make the Z-80 handier than the 8080/8085. Well true, but then I don't always use z80. one version happens to use a 8749 with a 8155 and 8251 to serialize the data for a low speed net. I only said I didnt' require the FF to track the data, not that it would allow INIR. >IMHO, once you have more than two components you have to look at >programmable logic. I'm convinced that a CPLD, a small one, in fact, is the >correct solution here, except in the case of an 8-bit capable drive, in >which case no logic at all is needed, beyond what's already there. I have 2064s and 3030s but those packages are a real pain to wirewrap. Then I ahve to balast a erpm with the pattern and wire that too. No savings in wiring. For a PC card, yep, the only way. >Yes, it's been done, and if I'm going to do the 16-bit interface, I'm going >to do it with what's essentially their code. That means a pretty similar >interface, which, by the way, is pretty minimal. It does latch both bytes >of the data at the port. Still no need to do that. you only latch the data you cant transfer immediately. Saves one latch though you could use it for a gated buffer if you wanted to. >What matters to me more than making the extended versions of CP/M work, is >making the REAL CP/M work. Been there done that. It's easy enough, I have working examples. the problem is with 8mb logical disks I tend to fill them and ploughing through 1000+ files is a real pita to look at on the tube and slower than sludge cpu time wise. Keep in mind I've been running CP/M since 1.4 was new. I have over 12 systems in the room that are running CP/M now. maybe another 5 that would run save for they are on the shelf (run but, are in storage). Running systems CP/M more than half of which are running BIOS of my design and ZCPR3. Some have mods to CPM like banked BIOS: * means it's anything but stock and is a production use machine. * hurikon MLZ92 Multibus CPM 2.2, banked. * ISC8010 (modded) with NEC BP575 and BP2190 (two of them) running banked with 3.5" floppies. (another multibus crate) NS* horizon (restored, dual MDS-A) running Lifeboat CP/M 1.4 * NS* horizon with expansions and my own controllers runnign banked ZCPR/SUPRBDOS/bios (CP/M2.2 compatable with extensions). Current controller has 71mb (RD53). Controller is WD1002WXS with Z80 frontend to the bus. this crate is 22years old and nothing near stock. NS* Advantage (restoring), 15mb CCS and floppy CP/M2.2 in 128k Has a unique bios that attaches the NS hard disk DOS tot he cpm file system allowing definable partitions. * CCS runing their version and also a version of 2.2 I assembled for Compupro Controller (disk 1A).. DEC vt180 (in Vt100) stock * DEC VT180 (standalone, modded) running CP/M 2.2 from romdisk. used as testbed for IDE, bubble memory. Runs at 6mhz (z80). * AmproLB (scsi fujitsu 45mb) no mods other than cmos and it's production. * Kaypro with Advent TURBOrom, 1 360k 5.25 and two 781k 3.5" floppies plus 2mb ramdisk. Visual 1050 ( restored 128k CP/M 3) with dual 5.25 96tpi 781k, 20mb Xebec controller. * Visual 1050 (modded, IDE 120mb). Banked bios CP/M2.2 * Compupro crate, NS* z80 cpu with MMU added 256k ram, Disk -1a controller and IDE (85mb). * Epson PX-8, with 120mb wedge CPM2.2 from rom. My laptop. Allison From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 19 00:09:31 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:52 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE References: <001701bfa983$373344e0$7564c0d0@ajp166> <20000418202920.A6466@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <001501bfa9bd$7275d060$0400c0a8@winbook> Please see my comments below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: John Wilson To: Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2000 6:29 PM Subject: Re: 8-bit IDE > On Tue, Apr 18, 2000 at 06:11:15PM -0400, allisonp wrote: > > Limited logic, one latch. No rule said only one address for the data read > > or write. > > I'm curious, how can it be done with just one latch? In my ISA-8 thing, > I used one latch for writing data, to hold the low byte until the PC writes > the high byte. And another in the other direction, to catch the high byte > when the PC reads the low byte. Then a 244 to allow writing the high byte, > and a 245 for all other cases (including 8-bit register accesses). Is there > some way I'm not thinking of, to flip one 373 around and use it in both > directions??? > keep the 'LS646 in mind. It contains the equivalent of a pair of '574's with a '245 wired across the two registers. You can transfer data in pipelined mode or in immediate mode, which potentially would allow you to reverse byte order, for example, by passing the first received byte to the register and the second to the outputs. This works in either direction. Allison mentioned a strategy that would enable you to do this with a single, albeit bidirectional register (e.g. LS646). If you decode the data bus high byte and low byte separately, you could write to the lower byte at one location and write to the higher at another, which, coincidentally, turns on the outputs of the lower register, while presenting the output from the bus receiver on the high byte. Likewise, if you read from the high byte directly, using the enable to the high byte as the latch strobe to the registered low-byte, you can later read the low byte. This, unfortunately reverses the byte order. OTOH, if you write the low byte and register it in a '646, and then write the high byte into another '646, you need to wait until the write cycle is ended, since that is guaranteed only on the trailing edge of the write strobe pWR* since the '646 is rising-edge sensitive. If one were to use a '573, one could write the low byte with no transaction on the IDE channel, followed by a write of the high byte, during which the low byte output is enabled, thereby effecting a word write. The register in the high-byte's '646 would only be used in the case of a read from the IDE. The physical IDE 16-bit channel would be latched on the high byte with its output enable turned off, while the low byte is read through the transparent latch. Unfortunately, these devices are edge-triggered rather than level gated registers. That requires a separate read cycle that occurs only AFTER the IDE is registered. > John Wilson > D Bit From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 19 00:27:31 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:52 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE References: <004101bfa9a7$65b50d20$7564c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <002201bfa9bf$f6418540$0400c0a8@winbook> Please see itemized comments below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: allisonp To: Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2000 8:30 PM Subject: Re: 8-bit IDE > >Boggles the mind, doesn't it? I remember that I paid $1250 for the first > >ST506 I bought. It even said Shugart Technology rather than Seagate > >Technology . That was 5 MB. > > > Managed to get my St506 in mid 81 for much less than half that. > connections. > > >Well, if you're willing to believe that what's in the timing diagrams, > after > >you see they clearly violate other spec's, you can do that. I prefer to > >latch the data to ensure that I have it. Likewise, whether I have to write > >two locations or the same one twice, the data has to be latched. You also > > > Didnt' say you didn't need the latch only you didnt need an extra FF to > track > the silo status. > it's just one D-flip-flop, which, for the writes, is implemented as a shift register that shifts out the write strobe a clock tick after the high byte is written to the IDE. It also generates the OE* to both registers. For reads, the negative-going read strobe enables the buffers' outputs and the inverted read strobe clocks the registers. > > >'646..'654 type device, which won't work the way that's needed because > >they're edge-triggered, you'll run up the parts count. After all, you have > >to latch the low byte on writes and the high byte on reads. I think saving > > > What about 573s? Thats what I used. though the proto used ls373s. > Those parts run up the parts count too much. The '646 family devices have registers in each direction as well as a '245-style buffer bypassing them in each direction. > > >parts by leaving out functionality is risky here. If you write the high > >byte to the latch first, then write the low byte AND high byte, in a single > >unlatched write for the low byte, it may work, but now you can't use those > >handy instructions that make the Z-80 handier than the 8080/8085. > > Well true, but then I don't always use z80. one version happens to use a > 8749 with a 8155 and 8251 to serialize the data for a low speed net. > I only said I didnt' require the FF to track the data, not that it would > allow INIR. > > >IMHO, once you have more than two components you have to look at > >programmable logic. I'm convinced that a CPLD, a small one, in fact, is > the > >correct solution here, except in the case of an 8-bit capable drive, in > >which case no logic at all is needed, beyond what's already there. > > > I have 2064s and 3030s but those packages are a real pain to wirewrap. > Then I ahve to balast a erpm with the pattern and wire that too. No savings > in wiring. For a PC card, yep, the only way. > > >Yes, it's been done, and if I'm going to do the 16-bit interface, I'm going > >to do it with what's essentially their code. That means a pretty similar > >interface, which, by the way, is pretty minimal. It does latch both bytes > >of the data at the port. > > > Still no need to do that. you only latch the data you cant transfer > immediately. > Saves one latch though you could use it for a gated buffer if you wanted to. > > >What matters to me more than making the extended versions of CP/M work, is > >making the REAL CP/M work. > > > Been there done that. It's easy enough, I have working examples. the > problem is with 8mb logical disks I tend to fill them and ploughing through > 1000+ files > is a real pita to look at on the tube and slower than sludge cpu time wise. > > Allison > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Apr 19 04:39:25 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:52 2005 Subject: CPU upgrades, pt. II In-Reply-To: <01bc01bfa8c6$e11676c0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: >Ah, the model 95! The Ardent Tool of Capitalism itself! Makes a lovely file >server when running OS/2 or an old copy of NT 3.5. The machine is >indestructible, there's more than enough power and room for 3 or 4 modern >SCSI drives, and plenty of slots for a LANstreamer or two. If you don't >already have them, I'd suggest upgrading to a Type 4 (Pentium 60 or 66) >complex, and an IBM Fast/Wide SCSI controller. Alternatively, many of the >older complexes can take Evergreen or other upgrade CPUs, with the suitable >interposer. > >The only downside of PS/2s these days is that 100 Meg Ethernet cards for >MCA are very hard to find. 10bt cards are no cake walk to find for MCA, but I wonder if it REALLY is that much of a factor. I mean how much suffering are you doing at 10bt rates with a decent card like those lanstreamer things? My PS/2 "collection" is about 2 dozen machines, with model 9595 units making up about 2/3 of that number. Those are "pretty" machines, better than blinkin lights. ;) OTOH the desktop line are so ugly it makes up for it. BTW the type IV p90 is the hot complex, I have TWO. ;) Some of the others can be upgraded, but from reading the PS2 newsgroup success is quite spotty, with many problems using the interposers. For members of this list only I will offer a few Kingston 586 133 upgrade chips, or the similar Evergreens for $20 each and shipping. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Apr 19 04:48:00 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:52 2005 Subject: So Cal HP2932A HP-IB printer In-Reply-To: <008a01bfa191$61bd77c0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: I hate to mention it, as the printer is heavy etc., but on the off chance that it is the dream of some hopefully So Calif list member to own a HP2932A HP-IB printer, there are two at a salvage yard I visit apparently in working condition. From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Apr 19 07:39:13 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:52 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE In-Reply-To: <001501bfa9bd$7275d060$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: > keep the 'LS646 in mind. It contains the equivalent of a pair of '574's > with a '245 wired across the two registers. You can transfer data in > pipelined mode or in immediate mode, which potentially would allow you to > reverse byte order, for example, by passing the first received byte to the > register and the second to the outputs. This works in either direction. the 646 is pointless for s100. You need a split data bus any ways and two ls373s would do the job easier with far less steering logic.. If s100 had a unified data bus then maybe... Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Apr 19 07:42:17 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:52 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE In-Reply-To: <002201bfa9bf$f6418540$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Apr 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Please see itemized comments below. PLEASE EDIT YOUR MESSAGES, IF I CAN ON A SLOW TELNET LINK YOU CAN! > > Didnt' say you didn't need the latch only you didnt need an extra FF to > > track the silo status. > > > it's just one D-flip-flop, which, for the writes, is implemented as a shift > register that shifts out the write strobe a clock tick after the high byte > is written to the IDE. It also generates the OE* to both registers. For > reads, the negative-going read strobe enables the buffers' outputs and the > inverted read strobe clocks the registers. You do not have to explain it to me, I've done it, have working examples! Allison From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 19 09:59:40 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:52 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE References: Message-ID: <002301bfaa0f$e416e400$0400c0a8@winbook> Gee! I thought I had trimmed the excess from the message I sent. I get a couple of hundred emails every day, including this mailing list, and, frankly, I need all the help I can get in associating the current level message with the context. Message subjects certainly don't help much since the fractional portions that warrant my interest aren't always entirely central to the initial thread title. The reason I like the '646 and friends is because it essentially provides the register that is needed to hold the high data on a read and the buffer to steer the high data on a write That's one part instead of two. With the proto-space limitation I have that's an important consideration. All the while, I've been harping on this notion that there must be SOME drives that provided this 8-bit option, else it wouldn't have been in the standard at all. The fact that it was not popular at all is grounds for its removal in the 1996 standard, but as I say, I want to consider it a possibility until I'm sure it won't work out. That would make my board a channel board rather than a device-specific board. I like that notion as well. I won't have to add any extra parts to those already in the artwork, thereby saving space that can be used for connectors, and I won't have to put parts on an external board, because the target devices use the channel as their interface. It's a goal which I'm exploring. If I come up completely empty in my search for IDE drives that actually support the 8-bit mode, I can still use "normal" 16-bit IDE by putting in the circuit that works with Tilmann Reh's GIDE hardware. I'd leave out the RTC/calendar function, though, since I use an MSM5832 from OKI for that, having built a board back in the '80-'81 timeframe for that. I consider the "correct" parts count to be either 0 or 1. In the case of the WD100x channel, it's 0, and in the case of the 8-bit IDE it's 0. If it becomes 1, it has to be a CPLD because I can put all thenecessary registers and buffers in there without increasing the space that's used. Now, you've listed a couple of FPGA's. Those inherenly imply a parts count of 2, unless you load them from your processor. I suppose it's splitting hairs, but the parts count is really not the issue, it's the space, in my case, because the board has only those two teensy proto-areas, one at 20 x 12 holes, and the other at 24 x 11. That's barely enough for a 68-pin PGA/PLCC socket. Few parts come in those packages any more, so the 44-pin PLCC might be what's left. I do have bigger wirewrap areas on other WW boards, but this one is so close ... Frankly, I wish the current generation XILINX software would support the 2000 and 3000 series parts, but the former was end-of-lifed some 10 years ago and the 3000 has been replaced with the 3000-A series and 3100 series. The 3030 would make my job MUCH simpler, but I just can't use one due to software incompatibility. That's how they get us to buy more parts and throw out the old ones, doncha know! ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2000 6:42 AM Subject: Re: 8-bit IDE > On Tue, 18 Apr 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Please see itemized comments below. > > PLEASE EDIT YOUR MESSAGES, IF I CAN ON A SLOW TELNET LINK YOU CAN! > > > > Didnt' say you didn't need the latch only you didnt need an extra FF to > > You do not have to explain it to me, I've done it, have working examples! > > Allison > > From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Apr 19 15:45:27 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:52 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE In-Reply-To: <002301bfaa0f$e416e400$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: > The reason I like the '646 and friends is because it essentially provides > the register that is needed to hold the high data on a read and the buffer If you have a unified bus it's a good part. S100 (raw) is not unified so it's less than helpful. The compromise is to make the board a channel (like mine) and use a interface adaptor between it and the drive (IDE-16). > Frankly, I wish the current generation XILINX software would support the > 2000 and 3000 series parts, but the former was end-of-lifed some 10 years > ago and the 3000 has been replaced with the 3000-A series and 3100 series. > The 3030 would make my job MUCH simpler, but I just can't use one due to > software incompatibility. Blame w96 for that. I have the old generation stuff and run W3.1 (though I'm trying it under NT4). > That's how they get us to buy more parts and throw out the old ones, doncha > know! I just don't bend to that. Allison From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Wed Apr 19 17:08:05 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:52 2005 Subject: PDP-8/i Help needed Message-ID: <20000419220805.3545.qmail@hotmail.com> Hi, OK I have an 8/i, but now I have a lot of questions; first, where the heck is the serial number on the dumb thing? The top of the main frame seems to be the listing for the options and serial numbers, i.e. "KW8I 532," "MC8IA 1877," and "KP8I 774." I know this means it has/had another 4K of memory, the power fail/auto restart, and the RTC. On the back of the main frame, it has one more serial plate, though it looks like there used to be another one. It reads "M26 8I L3213." Is there any way to determine the stupid thing's serial number or is it there or ??? I have reason to believe that it's a fairly early machine, since it's a Negibus 8/i, and some of the chip dates are from late '68/early '69. I'd appreciate not being outbid on the 4K PDP-8 core stack on Ebay, as I need it to have the full 8K that it once had. Does anyone have any real docs for the beast they could part with? I mean originals, yes I greatly appreciate highgate, but since I plan to have a museum at some point, I really do need the real things. Not to mention that I don't have the equipment to print a D-size drawing (the module utilization chart). I also need the trim piece for the top of the rack it lives in (the old black 6'4" style). While I'm at it, I have no manuals for my 11/34A or my VAX-11/750.. Will J ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed Apr 19 17:18:37 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:52 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE In-Reply-To: <002301bfaa0f$e416e400$0400c0a8@winbook>; from edick@idcomm.com on Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 08:59:40AM -0600 References: <002301bfaa0f$e416e400$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <20000419181837.A9966@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 08:59:40AM -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Gee! I thought I had trimmed the excess from the message I sent. And yet, even in *this* message, you included 100% of Allison's message to which you were replying. PLEASE just trim it to the paragraphs you're actually addressing in your reply, some people are paying per packet to receive this list and anyway it's a real pain to have to page through many screens of text trying to find the parts that are new. > All the > while, I've been harping on this notion that there must be SOME drives that > provided this 8-bit option, else it wouldn't have been in the standard at > all. Well, for that matter, the SCSI-2 standard tells us that wide drives have the signals spread across *both* a 50- *and* a 68-pin cable. But good luck finding an actual drive like that. Some standards are obviously the result of bickering in the committee and are too silly to implement for real. Similarly, the 8-bit ISA market had shriveled up by the late 80s so it's certainly understandable that manufacturers building new drives (especially the really fancy 2.5" portable ones) wouldn't bother with an 8-bit mode. Who would need it? > Frankly, I wish the current generation XILINX software would support the > 2000 and 3000 series parts, but the former was end-of-lifed some 10 years > ago and the 3000 has been replaced with the 3000-A series and 3100 series. > The 3030 would make my job MUCH simpler, but I just can't use one due to > software incompatibility. All the more reason to use MSI TTL when it's a good fit (and appropriate to computers from that era). John Wilson D Bit From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Wed Apr 19 17:48:46 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:52 2005 Subject: Rover I portable: Does it exist? Message-ID: <20000419224846.97039.qmail@hotmail.com> I recently read about an intresting old portable (luggable?) called the Rover I. This is an intresting machine because instead of using floppy drives like most portables, it uses wafertape drives (now *there's* a storage system that never really took off, but I have heard that they were reasonably popular on TRaSh-80's.) My question: What is it? Does it exist? Was it ever released? ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 19 18:41:37 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:52 2005 Subject: 8-bit IDE References: <002301bfaa0f$e416e400$0400c0a8@winbook> <20000419181837.A9966@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <001701bfaa58$ce986100$0400c0a8@winbook> ----- Original Message ----- From: John Wilson To: Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2000 4:18 PM Subject: Re: 8-bit IDE > On Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 08:59:40AM -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Gee! I thought I had trimmed the excess from the message I sent. > > And yet, even in *this* message, you included 100% of Allison's message > to which you were replying. PLEASE just trim it to the paragraphs you're > actually addressing in your reply, some people are paying per packet to > receive this list and anyway it's a real pain to have to page through > many screens of text trying to find the parts that are new. > > > All the > > while, I've been harping on this notion that there must be SOME drives that > > provided this 8-bit option, else it wouldn't have been in the standard at > > all. > > Well, for that matter, the SCSI-2 standard tells us that wide drives have > the really fancy 2.5" portable ones) wouldn't bother with an 8-bit mode. > Who would need it? > > > Frankly, I wish the current generation XILINX software would support the > > 2000 and 3000 series parts, but the former was end-of-lifed some 10 years > > ago and the 3000 has been replaced with the 3000-A series and 3100 series. > > The 3030 would make my job MUCH simpler, but I just can't use one due to > > software incompatibility. > > All the more reason to use MSI TTL when it's a good fit (and appropriate to > computers from that era). > Well, not if it means more work, particularly drilling holes for IC's. This is a purely Xilinx problem. They switch software and obsolete parts more than their competitors. I really prefer devices I can program by themselves. They do make some nice and cheap CPLD's, though. The choices in deciding between integrated vs. programmable logic is not so simple. I do like to keep mod's in the same generation as the original, so it could have been done at the time. I find the choice depends on several factors. (1) if I'm building a tool, all other priorities are off in favor of speed and ease, (2) not everybody wants to maintain the level of technology of other hardware in the environment. If, for example, the generational mix is already quite diverse, I have no reservations whatsoever about using a better part than was available when the various system components were designed. (3) If there's a limitation on space or if using new technology, e.g. programmable logic, will reduce the number of parts involved, particularly if using denser programmable logic will make the work involved in making an upgrade or fix happen amount to less, particularly if it's less irreversible effort, e.g. drilling holes, I prefer the more modern components. In this case, there's a limitation on space, so I'm inclined to use what's dense and handy. but only if I can't find a simpler solution. Today's devices drive as hard, and symmetrically rather than what the old TTL used to do, as any TTL device. Consequently, it's easy to use one programmable device in place of a quantity of hardware that wouldn't even fit on several boards. That's generally not necessary, though I'm tempted simply to remove all the datapath and glue logic from my various S-100 boards and replace it with a single CPLD. That way, if something breaks, I just stick in a new CPLD and it's likely to work. No fiddling around with one component or another. It's also a cheaper way to do the "shotgun" repair, since there's only one "logic" component. BTW, I'm not particularly fond of FPGA's for a number of reasons. One of these reasons is that the parts that I now find I can't use are the ones I bought ten years ago for several hundred dollars each. > > John Wilson > D Bit From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 19 18:43:26 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:52 2005 Subject: Rover I portable: Does it exist? References: <20000419224846.97039.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <001d01bfaa59$0f8be1a0$0400c0a8@winbook> These things didn't have a long market life. Yes, they were available for at least a year. I remember ads in BYTE. These were EPSON devices, weren't they? Radio Shack was involved with them somehow. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: David Vohs To: Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2000 4:48 PM Subject: Rover I portable: Does it exist? > I recently read about an intresting old portable (luggable?) called the > Rover I. This is an intresting machine because instead of using floppy > drives like most portables, it uses wafertape drives (now *there's* a > storage system that never really took off, but I have heard that they were > reasonably popular on TRaSh-80's.) > > My question: What is it? Does it exist? Was it ever released? > ____________________________________________________________ > David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. > > Computer Collection: > > "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. > "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. > "Delorean": TI-99/4A. > "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. > "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. > "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. > ____________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Apr 19 19:48:04 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:52 2005 Subject: Drums References: <20000418143721.47606.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <38FE53C4.45A06A2@mainecoon.com> Will Jennings wrote: > Also, does anyone know what other computer companies used drums from Vermont > Research? They're for my Interdata 7/32, but I know at least Varian used > Vermont Research drums... any others? HP used VR drums as storage in the 2000B... -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Apr 19 20:25:42 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:52 2005 Subject: Rover I portable: Does it exist? Message-ID: <6.4d721b3.262fb696@aol.com> In a message dated 4/19/00 7:03:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, netsurfer_x1@hotmail.com writes: > I recently read about an intresting old portable (luggable?) called the > Rover I. This is an intresting machine because instead of using floppy > drives like most portables, it uses wafertape drives (now *there's* a > storage system that never really took off, but I have heard that they were > reasonably popular on TRaSh-80's.) wafertape - you mean stringy floppy? i have an exatron stringy floppy drive with my trs80 model 1. no tapes though. anyone have any? a guy i worked with has a stringy floppy drive with his model 1 and he said it was much better than cassette tape. i think it was random access type device too. i think he said you could store ~100k per wafertape. really looks like fishing line in a little tape case. DB Young ICQ: 29427634 view the computers of yesteryear at http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm --You can lead a whore to Vassar, but you can't make her think-- From dogas at leading.net Wed Apr 19 21:46:47 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:52 2005 Subject: Dec help (again) Message-ID: <000401bfaa72$ae5a2440$ca646464@dogclient01> After looking around on the net for a Dec MMJ terminal cable and finding conflicting sources for their pinouts, I figured it would be just easier to drive the 225mi round trip to dig around again int my favorite scrapper's junk piles... As luck would have it, I did find 4 of the cables and two RJ?? to db25 adapters. So... I speed home and hook up a few of the VaxStation 3100's for a virgin spin via the(MMJ) console and get: KA43-A V1.3 F...E...D...C...B...A...9...8...7...6...5...4...3_...2_...1?... ? C 0080 0000.40001 ?? 1 00C0 0000.7004 >>> I'm guessing this is a memory or media fault but I'm not sure... Anyone? Also, I finally opened rack #4 of the 11/44 system http://users.leading.net/~dogas/classiccmp/digital/pdp1144.htm ) I picked up that was supposedly empty... And inside is a SC008 Star Coupler and User Manual! A little happy dance ensued, of course, but I thought these things were just for vax clusters. Can a 44 be a node along side MicroVAXen ??? I also found a reference on the web http://www.tapr.org/tapr/html/internethistory/slide10.html ) that asserts that tcp was first written for a 44 too, is that true? Sorry for all the dec boneheadedness. Thanks - Mike: dogas@leading.net From marvin at rain.org Wed Apr 19 22:26:58 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:52 2005 Subject: DB25 to RJ-45 Adapters References: <000401bfaa72$ae5a2440$ca646464@dogclient01> Message-ID: <38FE7902.D98D1CAE@rain.org> Not having any known use for these things, I have a couple bags of 50 unopened DB25 to RJ-45 adapters. Any interest? $10.00 + $3.20 Priority Mail shipping. From sms at antinode.org Wed Apr 19 22:35:05 2000 From: sms at antinode.org (sms@antinode.org) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:52 2005 Subject: Dec help (again) Message-ID: <00041922350562@antinode.org> "Mike": > ? C 0080 0000.40001 > ?? 1 00C0 0000.7004 > [...] > I'm guessing this is a memory or media fault but I'm not sure... Anyone? Nope. "C" refers to the serial ports, "?" probably because you don't have a keyboard or mouse connected. "1" is the Ethernet port, with "0000.7004" saying that it's in the BNC mode, and nothing's connected. Only the "??" will stop it from trying to boot automatically. Connect a BNC "T" with a pair of 50-ohm terminators to eliminate this complaint. No one cares about the other one. See, for example, "http://www.antinode.org/dec/vs3100_diag.html" (and its friends) for more details. (Most of the VAXstation 2000 diagnostics info applies to the 3100 series, too.) Try "TEST 50" and "SHOW DEVICE" for more and better info. I haven't tried it, but I'd bet a quarter that an AltaVista or Deja search for 0000.7004 would tell you more than you might expect. This may be _the_ most common/problem question on these things. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda (+1) 651-699-9818 (voice, home) 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 763-781-0308 (voice, work) Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 (+1) 763-781-0309 (facsimile, work) sms@antinode.org sms@provis.com (work) From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Apr 20 01:34:38 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:52 2005 Subject: DB25 to RJ-45 Adapters In-Reply-To: <38FE7902.D98D1CAE@rain.org>; from marvin@rain.org on Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 08:26:58PM -0700 References: <000401bfaa72$ae5a2440$ca646464@dogclient01> <38FE7902.D98D1CAE@rain.org> Message-ID: <20000420023438.A11204@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 08:26:58PM -0700, Marvin wrote: > Not having any known use for these things, I have a couple bags of 50 > unopened DB25 to RJ-45 adapters. Any interest? $10.00 + $3.20 Priority Mail > shipping. Long shot but: are the RJ45s 10-pin ones, or just 8? And are the DB25s male or female? John Wilson D Bit From marvin at rain.org Thu Apr 20 01:44:58 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:52 2005 Subject: DB25 to RJ-45 Adapters References: <000401bfaa72$ae5a2440$ca646464@dogclient01> <38FE7902.D98D1CAE@rain.org> <20000420023438.A11204@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <38FEA76A.B398AB7F@rain.org> Hi John, These are the 8-pin version of the RJ-45s and the DB25 is female. The DB25 pins are attached to the RJ-45 connector and have not been inserted into the DB25 housing. Hope this helps! Marvin John Wilson wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 08:26:58PM -0700, Marvin wrote: > > Not having any known use for these things, I have a couple bags of 50 > > unopened DB25 to RJ-45 adapters. Any interest? $10.00 + $3.20 Priority Mail > > shipping. > > Long shot but: are the RJ45s 10-pin ones, or just 8? > And are the DB25s male or female? > > John Wilson > D Bit From cbajpai at mediaone.net Thu Apr 20 06:39:39 2000 From: cbajpai at mediaone.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:53 2005 Subject: Rover I portable: Does it exist? In-Reply-To: <001d01bfaa59$0f8be1a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: The product was called 'Exatron Stringy Floppy'...I think Exatron actually developed/manufactured the technology. They were advertised heavily in TRS-80 magazines like 80 Micro. I inherited two of the ESF drives and a lot of wafers with my last TRS-80....Are they that rare? Worth anything? -Chandra -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Richard Erlacher Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2000 7:43 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Rover I portable: Does it exist? These things didn't have a long market life. Yes, they were available for at least a year. I remember ads in BYTE. These were EPSON devices, weren't they? Radio Shack was involved with them somehow. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: David Vohs To: Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2000 4:48 PM Subject: Rover I portable: Does it exist? > I recently read about an intresting old portable (luggable?) called the > Rover I. This is an intresting machine because instead of using floppy > drives like most portables, it uses wafertape drives (now *there's* a > storage system that never really took off, but I have heard that they were > reasonably popular on TRaSh-80's.) > > My question: What is it? Does it exist? Was it ever released? > ____________________________________________________________ > David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. > > Computer Collection: > > "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. > "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. > "Delorean": TI-99/4A. > "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. > "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. > "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. > ____________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From djg at drs-esg.com Thu Apr 20 07:28:48 2000 From: djg at drs-esg.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:53 2005 Subject: 8I and KA10 bulbs Message-ID: <200004201228.IAA08633@drs-esg.com> >From previous usenet posting: The bulbs look like the 8 bulbs, they can still be purchased from DEC 12-09169-00 LAMP, 15V @ .040AMP MAX, .075 $2.00 See web page http://www.digital.com/info/DAS-Catalog/dassearch.htm http://x35.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=534721209&CONTEXT=956232079.1091174408&hitnum=0 On the 8/I I think the serial # is on the back of the frame, one has two plates M26 8I L3221 and M26 8I SYS3194, which is the newer of the machine, it also has a DEC looking piece of paper glued to the bottom of the frame below the wirewrap dated 3/28/72. This is a negibus also. Plates labeled M26 8I L3221 and M26 8I SYS3194. This one has chips 69-72. The older? is M-2 L-927. It has a bunch of blue and other color wires which I assume are ECO's or options added later. It doesn't have any of the option plates on the top of the frame. The one above only has a few. Most of it's chips are 68, it has some of the blue Sprague chips. Sorry, only have the one copy of 8/I manuals that I scanned. David Gesswein From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 20 08:14:44 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:53 2005 Subject: Rover I portable: Does it exist? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Apr 2000, Chandra Bajpai wrote: > > The product was called 'Exatron Stringy Floppy'...I think Exatron > actually developed/manufactured the technology. They were advertised > heavily in TRS-80 magazines like 80 Micro. > > I inherited two of the ESF drives and a lot of wafers with my last > TRS-80....Are they that rare? Worth anything? They are scarce with good tapes but sold well in their time. Rare, not really. The technology was continious loop AKA 8track carts and was an outgrowth of modified 8track decks using shortend tapes (usually 5 minutes). with 8 data tracks that was roughly like having a 20minute tape and at 4800 that was a lot of bits. the stringyfloppy was the same save it was two or four tracks and used narrow .140 tape (casette width) rather that the 8track sized (.250") in a very much smaller cart. The design tricks were saturation recording (phase or NRZ), using the splice point as index. The basic scheme was to record a header and data not unlike floppy but at slower 2400 or 4800 baud rates. Since the tape speed was fixed you could easily rewrite a block after the header passed making it block replaceable like floppy. Fast forward was used to skip blocks as a speed up. also start stop was used. It's problem was that like most continous loop tapes the media life was poor and there were problems with binding. I had tried 8tracks for continous loop floppy emulation before the trs80 came out so I'd already found out about the media problem. I went to a casette based scheme instead. Allison From jhfine at idirect.com Thu Apr 20 08:48:00 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:53 2005 Subject: Time to thin out the collection References: <200004190230.VAA00907@garcon.laidbak.com> Message-ID: <38FF0A90.41CA23C0@idirect.com> >Paul Braun wrote: > I'd hate to just scrap this stuff, as I'm sure someone can make use > of it. I just plain ran out of room and would like to have part of my > basement back..... Jerome Fine replies: If you have any DEC Qbus PDP-11 stuff that is left, I am interested. Please advise and thank you in advance. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From wrking at tsoft.com Thu Apr 20 10:19:31 2000 From: wrking at tsoft.com (William King) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:53 2005 Subject: RD45 question Message-ID: <000001bfaadb$d38dab60$bf01a8c0@dadaboom.com> I know this has been discussed before, but I can't find the info. I just aquired a Maxtor 2190 disk drive that I want to convert into a DEC RD54. I know about formatting it under XXDP, but I remember that a jumper had to be changed on the drive. Can anyone help me out here? Thanks, Bill King From emu at ecubics.com Thu Apr 20 12:06:13 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:53 2005 Subject: RD45 question References: <000001bfaadb$d38dab60$bf01a8c0@dadaboom.com> Message-ID: <00f201bfaaea$bce02aa0$5d01a8c0@p2350> > I know this has been discussed before, but I can't find the info. I just > aquired a Maxtor 2190 disk drive that I want to convert into a DEC RD54. I > know about formatting it under XXDP, but I remember that a jumper had to be > changed on the drive. Can anyone help me out here? You're probably looking for: http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11 Then go to HARDWARE and look for the third-party-disks.txt file. Or directly to: http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardware /third-party-disks.txt There should be enough information on how to format your xt2190 Hope it helps, emanuel From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 20 12:06:50 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:00 2005 Subject: RD45 question In-Reply-To: <000001bfaadb$d38dab60$bf01a8c0@dadaboom.com> Message-ID: >I know this has been discussed before, but I can't find the info. I just >aquired a Maxtor 2190 disk drive that I want to convert into a DEC RD54. I >know about formatting it under XXDP, but I remember that a jumper had to be >changed on the drive. Can anyone help me out here? > >Thanks, >Bill King I'm afriad I've no idea. However, I'd suggest taking a look at the following as it should have the info (pardon the two line URL). http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardware/thi rd-party-disks.txt Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Apr 20 12:28:21 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:00 2005 Subject: RD45 question In-Reply-To: <000001bfaadb$d38dab60$bf01a8c0@dadaboom.com>; from wrking@tsoft.com on Thu, Apr 20, 2000 at 08:19:31AM -0700 References: <000001bfaadb$d38dab60$bf01a8c0@dadaboom.com> Message-ID: <20000420132821.A12989@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Apr 20, 2000 at 08:19:31AM -0700, William King wrote: > I know this has been discussed before, but I can't find the info. I just > aquired a Maxtor 2190 disk drive that I want to convert into a DEC RD54. I > know about formatting it under XXDP, but I remember that a jumper had to be > changed on the drive. Can anyone help me out here? I *think* you're thinking of the RD53. I'm 86% positive that an XT2190 is exactly the same as an RD54, no jumper needed, just ZRQC?? and away you go. John Wilson D Bit From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Apr 20 12:30:09 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:00 2005 Subject: DB25 to RJ-45 Adapters In-Reply-To: <200004201625.MAA16201@shell.monmouth.com>; from bpechter@mail.monmouth.com on Thu, Apr 20, 2000 at 04:25:28PM +0000 References: <200004201625.MAA16201@shell.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <20000420133009.B12989@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Apr 20, 2000 at 04:25:28PM +0000, bpechter@mail.monmouth.com wrote: > I thought RJ45's are 8 pin maximum -- but I may be wrong. The 10-pin ones are rare, but they do exist, Altex sells the cables/connectors and Digikey has the sockets. With the usual RS232 pinning, the "RI" signal is on one of the outer two pins, so the more common 8-pin RJ45s will lose it, I know some people who have been burned by that. So that's why I care... John Wilson D Bit From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Apr 20 14:07:27 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:00 2005 Subject: RD45 question References: <000001bfaadb$d38dab60$bf01a8c0@dadaboom.com> Message-ID: <38FF556F.5E3D2D90@mcmanis.com> Bill did you buy that pile of 2190's from Bermans? And the VAX too? --Chuck William King wrote: > I know this has been discussed before, but I can't find the info. I just > aquired a Maxtor 2190 disk drive that I want to convert into a DEC RD54. I > know about formatting it under XXDP, but I remember that a jumper had to be > changed on the drive. Can anyone help me out here? > > Thanks, > Bill King From donm at cts.com Thu Apr 20 14:39:27 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:00 2005 Subject: RD45 question In-Reply-To: <000001bfaadb$d38dab60$bf01a8c0@dadaboom.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Apr 2000, William King wrote: > I know this has been discussed before, but I can't find the info. I just > aquired a Maxtor 2190 disk drive that I want to convert into a DEC RD54. I > know about formatting it under XXDP, but I remember that a jumper had to be > changed on the drive. Can anyone help me out here? You need to reset the jumper to DS3. - don From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 20 15:24:22 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:00 2005 Subject: SCO drops fee for Ancient Unix License Message-ID: <20000420202422.9229.qmail@brouhaha.com> In a press release dated April 18, 2000, SCO has announced that they have dropped the $100 processing fee for an "Ancient" Unix License: http://www.sco.com/press/releases/2000/6927.html They say that it will be possible to download code directly from their site. As far as I can tell, they haven't yet made it available. Once one has an Ancient Unix License, one can also get other Unix code derived from Unix editions through 7th Edition, and 32V, from PUPS, the PDP Unix Preservation Society: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS/ And Marshall Kirk McKusick's CSRG Archive CD-ROM set (four discs, $99.00), which contains all of the BSD releases: http://www.mckusick.com/csrg/index.html From peter at joules0.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 20 17:06:36 2000 From: peter at joules0.demon.co.uk (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:00 2005 Subject: New finds Message-ID: <$bFWkCAs93$4Ew2T@joules0.demon.co.uk> They are having a clearout at work :). Due to the disposals policy and procedures all of this stuff isn't considered worth putting through the disposals procedure and being sold/given away and so must go in the skip. However they are prepared to lend it to me on indefinite loan on the condition that I return it so that they can throw it in the skip if I leave. The best find, in my opinion, is a Samsung S5200 luggable with all docs and the original system floppies. From the documentation it is a 286 with 2MB RAM and 32MB SCSI hard drive. The only problem is that it has a PSU fault - when I turn it on there is no life at all. I didn't bring it home tonight as I was on the bike and it was raining but I will collect the complete haul on Tuesday so I will be asking for help diagnosing this fault. I have opened it up and the PSU contains no ICs so it is the sort of thing I might have a chance of working on. Also in the haul is Windows 2, Windows/286, Windows 3, DOS versions 3.1, 3.2, 4, 5, and 6.22, DR-DOS 5, OS/2, DBase versions 2 and 4, Turbo C++ V3, Zortech C, Wordstar 3, and 6 along with WordStar for Windoze, SuperCalc versions 4, 5 and 5.1, DataEase, TAS + and Professional, and much more on 5.25 and 8" disks which I haven't had time to catalogue yet. There is even a full box of 10 brand new 8" disks. I also have a Dragon 32 and may get an RM NB300 laptop if I am lucky. There is also an original IBM PC/AT and a Wyse SCSI DAT drive. A lot of the software is complete with original docs and some is shrink wrapped. Can't wait to play with it all ;-) -- Regards Pete From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Apr 20 18:35:04 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:00 2005 Subject: Doesn't this just make you sick! Altair Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000420183504.26670e30@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi All, A couple of years ago I picked up a second Altair. It was missing all the cards except for a Godbout active terminator card and is missing the top case. While working on it a couple of weeks ago I found a previous owner's name in it. It recognized the name, it was a guy that I worked with for many years at Martin Marietta. After some searching, I finally tracked him down and asked him about the Altair. Here's his reply: > >My EXwife 'disposed' of a fair amount of my equipment a few years back. (She didn't pay the payments on the storage locked so the stuff was trashed. ed) > The >Altair was in perfect shape, worked, had all of the cards and was attached >to a Hazeltine1500 CRT. It had a couple of 8 inch floppy drives and a CDC >Hawk 5x5 hard disk drive that fit a 19E rack. If I remember correctly, the >Altair was serial 28. It wasn't a kit but was a production (one of the >first off the line) model. > >Interesting how things happen??? BTW, I still live in Orlando. The number >you gave was my work phone number when I was still working for Lockheed up >in Ocala. I commuted each day from Orlando...got old and just about wore my >car out. > >Nice hearing from you after all this time. > >Richard > Somehow a scrapper ended up with it. He evidently pulled the cards for their scrap value. Then he sold the chassis at a hamfest. Another ex-Martin employee bought it and years later I bought it from him. Does anyone have a top case that they'll part with? My first Altair is nearly complete but I still need the MITs floppy drive controller cards. Does anyone have a set that they'll sell or trade? I have an original MITs floppy drive and original MITs disks so I only need the controller cards to make it operational. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Apr 20 20:52:59 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:00 2005 Subject: Intel i960 evaluation board Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000420205259.0da723da@mailhost.intellistar.net> I just picked up three of the Intel EV80960SX evaluation boards. They're evaluation boards for the Intel 80960 processors. There's a picture of one at "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/misc/int80960.jpg". Does anyone have the specs or any docs for them? Joe From ss at allegro.com Thu Apr 20 21:21:36 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:00 2005 Subject: Intel i960 evaluation board In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000420205259.0da723da@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <200004210223.TAA04134@opus.allegro.com> Re: > I just picked up three of the Intel EV80960SX evaluation boards. They're > evaluation boards for the Intel 80960 processors. There's a picture of one > at "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/misc/int80960.jpg". Does anyone have the > specs or any docs for them? No, but I have an i960 based Unix machine I wouldn't mind trading away. (It works, but I can't logon ... don't know the root password, and haven't had time to crack it) SS Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From jhfine at idirect.com Thu Apr 20 22:13:42 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:00 2005 Subject: RD45 question References: Message-ID: <38FFC766.93128739@idirect.com> >Don Maslin wrote: > > I know this has been discussed before, but I can't find the info. I just > > aquired a Maxtor 2190 disk drive that I want to convert into a DEC RD54. I > > know about formatting it under XXDP, but I remember that a jumper had to be > > changed on the drive. Can anyone help me out here? > You need to reset the jumper to DS3. Jerome Fine replies: In a BA123 box, all the drives are set to DS3 and the I/O distribution board in slot 13 manages the rest. But, if the RD54 is the second drive in a BA23 box (rare but possible in a 6 switch front panel), then you must use DS4. This arrangement was VERY FIRMLY impressed on my memory one day about 10 years ago when I had just done a format of an RD52. Just to be careful, I removed the first RD52 drive before I did the format for the second drive. After it was done, I put the first RD52 back into the system, but forgot to set the second drive to DS4. I wound up with both RD52 drives requiring a format - and lost all the files from the first RD52. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From schoedel at kw.igs.net Thu Apr 20 23:07:23 2000 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:00 2005 Subject: Intel i960 evaluation board In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000420205259.0da723da@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <3.0.1.16.20000420205259.0da723da@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On 2000/04/20 at 8:52pm -0500, you wrote: > I just picked up three of the Intel EV80960SX evaluation boards. They're >evaluation boards for the Intel 80960 processors. There's a picture of one >at "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/misc/int80960.jpg". Does anyone have the >specs or any docs for them? A little. I've never seen this particular board, but have a short description of it in a data book. It's not quite ten years old :-) The i960 is a rather nice 32-bit RISC architecture; the 80960SA is at the bottom end of the family, lacking floating point and MMU, and having a 16-bit external data bus. The board you have has 1/2M to 4M DRAM, some EPROM, possibly two flash, two serial ports, one parallel port (input only), Canon print engine interface, & processor signals brought out (presumably to the large white connector). The EPROMs most likely contain a monitor that works over one of the serial ports. I can't remember whether you can do anything with just a terminal or whether you need particular host software. Since some i960s are still in production, you can most likely get information and software from Intel. -- Kevin Schoedel schoedel@kw.igs.net From donm at cts.com Fri Apr 21 00:46:13 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:00 2005 Subject: RD45 question In-Reply-To: <38FFC766.93128739@idirect.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Apr 2000, Jerome Fine wrote: > >Don Maslin wrote: > > > > I know this has been discussed before, but I can't find the info. I just > > > aquired a Maxtor 2190 disk drive that I want to convert into a DEC RD54. I > > > know about formatting it under XXDP, but I remember that a jumper had to be > > > changed on the drive. Can anyone help me out here? > > You need to reset the jumper to DS3. > > Jerome Fine replies: > > In a BA123 box, all the drives are set to DS3 and the I/O distribution board > in slot 13 manages the rest. But, if the RD54 is the second drive in a BA23 > box (rare but possible in a 6 switch front panel), then you must use DS4. I appreciate that, but since his statement was that he had acquired a Maxtor 2190 that he wanted to *convert* into a RD54 it seems a reasonable presumption that it would be set for DS1 or DS2 and would need to be reset. In formatting a 2190 on my MicroVAX 2000, that is all that I had to do. T 70 recognized it immediately, and it was duck soup from there on. > This arrangement was VERY FIRMLY impressed on my memory one day > about 10 years ago when I had just done a format of an RD52. Just to > be careful, I removed the first RD52 drive before I did the format for the > second drive. After it was done, I put the first RD52 back into the system, but > forgot to set the second drive to DS4. I wound up with both RD52 drives > requiring a format - and lost all the files from the first RD52. That would certainly ruin your whole day! - don > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine > > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Apr 21 00:30:27 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:00 2005 Subject: SCO drops fee for Ancient Unix License In-Reply-To: <20000420202422.9229.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: >In a press release dated April 18, 2000, SCO has announced that they >have dropped the $100 processing fee for an "Ancient" Unix License: Just a FYI for HP 9000 series users, the free update to HP-UX 10.20 ends this month. See the HP support site for details. http://www.software.hp.com/products/Y2K/cd_form.html calling 1-800-386-1117 press option 4 worked well too. From dastar at siconic.com Fri Apr 21 04:24:21 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:00 2005 Subject: Progress on NEC APC Message-ID: <200004210823.BAA15191@siconic.com> Ok, so thanks to Don Maslin who sent me an NEC APC system disk and a bit of luck I have finally been able to boot my NEC APC. I believe the drive heads were dirty, but constant running of the disk in the drive finally scraped away enough grime to make it read (couldn't find an 8" head cleaning disk...must organize warehouse; drives are enclosed and I couldn't seem to extract them from the machine to clean with alcohol...oh well). I stuck the disks I'm trying to recover data from in the B: drive and did a DIR but they all come back with "NO FILE". Now of course this means that the disks contain no files but I'm thinking there has to be something wrong here. The system disk is CP/M-86. I still don't know what format the disks in question are but I assumed they were also CP/M-86. What could be amiss here, aside from the possibility that the disks ARE empty? What utilities are available to me on the system disk to view a raw dump of the target disks? I can't believe after all this effort that these damn disks contain nothing. As always, any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated, and please reply directly to sellam@vintage.org. Thanks! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Apr 21 04:36:19 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:00 2005 Subject: Commodore Web Browsers Message-ID: <200004210936.CAA09090@oa.ptloma.edu> Well, for those of you following HyperLink 2.5, the web browser I'm working on for the C64, as of this morning I was able to surf Yahoo at 26.4 kbps with a PC 28.8 modem and an ACIA cartridge. And a few other sites too, which reminds me that Sam Ismail needs to put some ALT tags on those images on the VCF site. ;-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Really???? WOW!!!!! I'm shallow TOO!!!!! ----------------------------------- From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Apr 21 05:48:19 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:00 2005 Subject: Progress on NEC APC In-Reply-To: <200004210823.BAA15191@siconic.com> Message-ID: >the drive heads were dirty, but constant running of the disk in the drive >finally scraped away enough grime to make it read (couldn't find an 8" >head cleaning disk...must organize warehouse; drives are enclosed and I >couldn't seem to extract them from the machine to clean with >alcohol...oh well). > >I stuck the disks I'm trying to recover data from in the B: drive and did a >DIR but they all come back with "NO FILE". Now of course this means First I would clean the heads. Use one of those long Qtip on a stick things. From ghldbrd at ccp.com Fri Apr 21 12:06:39 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:00 2005 Subject: Commodore Web Browsers In-Reply-To: <200004210936.CAA09090@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: Hello Cameron I could get that for my c64's and call them internet ready now . . . Didn't think that Piper Cub could fly with the 747's and MD11's. Now if I could get a complete I'net package for my Osborne 1, that would be something . . . . On 21-Apr-00, you wrote: > Well, for those of you following HyperLink 2.5, the web browser I'm working > on for the C64, as of this morning I was able to surf Yahoo at 26.4 kbps > with a PC 28.8 modem and an ACIA cartridge. And a few other sites too, which > reminds me that Sam Ismail needs to put some ALT tags on those images on the > VCF site. ;-) Gary Hildebrand Amiga lover From ks at coastalnet.com Fri Apr 21 07:31:17 2000 From: ks at coastalnet.com (ks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:00 2005 Subject: Commodore Web Browsers References: <200004210936.CAA09090@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <39004A15.2ED9@coastalnet.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Well, for those of you following HyperLink 2.5, the web browser I'm working > on for the C64, as of this morning I was able to surf Yahoo at 26.4 kbps > with a PC 28.8 modem and an ACIA cartridge. Cameron what is an ACIA cartridge? Kirk Scott ------------------------------------------------------ Email contact info: ks@coastalnet.com scottk5@ibm.net webmaster@howardstreet.net We are rebuilding!!!! www.howardstreet.net ------------------------------------------------------ From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Apr 21 08:38:41 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:00 2005 Subject: Commodore Web Browsers Message-ID: <20000421133841.24553.qmail@web616.mail.yahoo.com> --- ks wrote: > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > > Well, for those of you following HyperLink 2.5, the web browser I'm working > > on for the C64, as of this morning I was able to surf Yahoo at 26.4 kbps > > with a PC 28.8 modem and an ACIA cartridge. > > > Cameron what is an ACIA cartridge? I know what one is but not where to get one. The ACIA is a particular variety of UART. IIRC, it stands for Advanced Communications Interface Adapter or something similar. Should be a variant of 6550 chip in there. Since I have a small drawer of 6550s (stripped from some 1970s 6502-based dumb terminals), I'm wondering if there are plans on the net (ftp.funet.fi?) to build one. I happen to already have an IDE interface for the C-64 (and a 1.3" KittyHawk drive to go with it); I'd love to stick a browser on there and go. If possible, I'd probably try to retrofit an ACIA to a recycled C-64 game cart with some creative wiring. Presumably at low speeds, DMA is not required. As they say, it's not how well the bear dances, but that the bear can dance at all. Great Job, Cameron! Let me know if it's possible to homebrew a serial interface that's compatible with what you are working on. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com From whdawson at mlynk.com Fri Apr 21 11:28:31 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:00 2005 Subject: Progress on NEC APC In-Reply-To: <200004210823.BAA15191@siconic.com> Message-ID: <000001bfabae$a1bc61c0$b0e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Sellam, -> I stuck the disks I'm trying to recover data from in the B: -> drive and did a -> DIR but they all come back with "NO FILE". Now of course this means -> that the disks contain no files but I'm thinking there has to be -> something -> wrong here. -> -> The system disk is CP/M-86. I still don't know what format the disks in -> question are but I assumed they were also CP/M-86. What could be -> amiss here, aside from the possibility that the disks ARE empty? What -> utilities are available to me on the system disk to view a raw -> dump of the target disks? -> -> I can't believe after all this effort that these damn disks contain nothing. I hope the following is some help to you. I don't know CP/M very well yet. However, I do know enough to be dangerous. What I write below pertains to CP/M 3 and most of it is directly from the DR CP/M 3 manual. I don't have any exposure to CP/M 86 (yet) so I don't know if this is true for that version, but I imagine it should be. CP/M further identifies all files by assigning each one a user number which ranges from 0 to 15. The number is assigned when the file is created and allows you to separate the files into sixteen file groups. This number will precede the drive identifier as in "4B>" means user number 4, drive B. Use the command USER to change the user number as in "A>USER 3" to change to user area 3 on drive A. You can change both the user number and the drive by entering the new user number and drive specifier together at the system prompt as in "A>3B:", which will return a prompt of "3B>" to signify the change. Most commands can access only those files that have the current user number. For example, if the current user number is 7, a DIR command with no options displays only the files that were created under user number 7. So, perhaps the files you are looking for are under a user number other than 0? The SHOW command can also be useful for you. The format is SHOW {d:}{[SPACE |LABEL |USERS |DIR |DRIVE]} d: refers to the drive number you wish to examine. Of particular use to you will be SHOW {d:)[USERS} as in A>SHOW[USERS] or A>SHOW B:[USERS] This will display the current user number and all the users on the drive and the corresponding number of files assigned to them. For example: A>SHOW[USERS] Active User : 1 Active Files: 0 2 3 4 A: # of files: 95 40 1 26 A: Number of free directory entries: 350 A> With this, at least you can tell if there are any files on the disks you have. I hope this is some help to you. Bill whdawson@mlynk.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 21 11:39:52 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:00 2005 Subject: Progress on NEC APC In-Reply-To: <200004210823.BAA15191@siconic.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Apr 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > I stuck the disks I'm trying to recover data from in the B: drive and did a > DIR but they all come back with "NO FILE". Now of course this means > that the disks contain no files but I'm thinking there has to be something > wrong here. > The system disk is CP/M-86. I still don't know what format the disks in > question are but I assumed they were also CP/M-86. Why? > What could be > amiss here, aside from the possibility that the disks ARE empty? What > utilities are available to me on the system disk to view a raw dump of the > target disks? The APC cupported both CP/M-86 and MS-DOS. Later today I'll look up some specs to try to predict what the CP/M-86 would see on the MS-DOS format. > I can't believe after all this effort that these damn disks contain nothing. Happens all the time. People often send the wrong diskettes. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From elvey at hal.com Fri Apr 21 11:50:57 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:00 2005 Subject: Progress on NEC APC In-Reply-To: <200004210823.BAA15191@siconic.com> Message-ID: <200004211650.JAA04743@civic.hal.com> "Sellam Ismail" wrote ---snip--- > I stuck the disks I'm trying to recover data from in the B: drive and did a > DIR but they all come back with "NO FILE". Now of course this means > that the disks contain no files but I'm thinking there has to be something > wrong here. Hi Sam You could try putting the disk into dir A after booting and then do a DIR. The DIR function should be memory resident and work without the system disk installed. This would eliminate problems with the B drive. It could be that the data was written directly to the disk as well and may not have a directory. It is also possible that someone accidentally formatted the disk, in which case, the only people with the equipment to recover it have one of those three letter acronyms and claim to work for the US government. Did the response come back right away or was there a few seconds delay. If it came back right away, that means that the drive correctly read the tracks. If there was some delay or a bunch of seeking, the disk was not being read correctly. Anyway, try it in the A drive since that seems to be working with the system disk. Dwight From dastar at siconic.com Fri Apr 21 11:53:20 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:00 2005 Subject: VCF Europa & My Appearance at Oxford Message-ID: <200004211552.IAA15574@siconic.com> VCF 1.0e is about a week away and plans are rolling right along. It should prove to be a smashing event. My German lessons are progressing nicely and I can now ask for beer in German and get directions to the nearest toilet. Next week I hope to be able to apologize in German for vomiting on your shoes. In case this isn't making sense to you, I made a deal with Hans that if he did the VCF for Europe I would learn German and give a 45 minute talk in German. My talk will deal with the Inca Quipu, a mnemonic device made of cloth that the ancient Inca's used to record things such as their crop counts, population, etc. I'm also giving a talk at Oxford (that would be in England :) at the Institute of Archaeology, 36 Beaumont St, Oxford at 5pm on Thursday, May 4th. My talk will deal with this whole computer collecting craze and what people like us are doing to preserve the history of computing. I may also give a follow-up talk the next day (that would be Friday, May 5th) at the Computer Centre on Banbury Road. That talk is still tentative but I'll post a follow-up when the time is worked out. I'll be in Oxford from Thursday, May 4th, until Saturday morning, May 6th. I would love to meet any Englanders from the list so if you can make it to the talk I'd be delighted. We can go get one of those big, tall beers at a local pub afterwards. They're called a yard right? Shouldn't that be 0.9144 meters now since you're on the metric system? At any rate, we'll quaff some alcoholic beverages and then go harass pretty young ladies. If anyone would like to contact me about anything please send all queries to sellam@vintage.org. I look forward to meeting many of my European counterparts! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 21 12:26:00 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:00 2005 Subject: Progress on NEC APC In-Reply-To: <200004210823.BAA15191@siconic.com> from "Sellam Ismail" at Apr 21, 0 02:24:21 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1164 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000421/d6706f37/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 21 12:29:17 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:00 2005 Subject: Commodore Web Browsers In-Reply-To: <39004A15.2ED9@coastalnet.com> from "ks" at Apr 21, 0 08:31:17 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 482 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000421/57dfac5a/attachment.ksh From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Apr 21 12:47:31 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:00 2005 Subject: Commodore Web Browsers In-Reply-To: <20000421133841.24553.qmail@web616.mail.yahoo.com> from Ethan Dicks at "Apr 21, 0 06:38:41 am" Message-ID: <200004211747.KAA11242@oa.ptloma.edu> ::> Cameron what is an ACIA cartridge? :: ::I know what one is but not where to get one. The ACIA is a particular ::variety of UART. IIRC, it stands for Advanced Communications Interface ::Adapter or something similar. Should be a variant of 6550 chip in there. ::Since I have a small drawer of 6550s (stripped from some 1970s 6502-based ::dumb terminals), I'm wondering if there are plans on the net (ftp.funet.fi?) ::to build one. The chip the cartridge is based on is the 6551 ACIA. I'm using a CMD SwiftLink cartridge for the I/O. You can definitely still buy them (they're now called Turbo232s) and they're under $40. If you're serious about using a Commodore for any kind of telecommunications, an SL or T232 is REQUIRED. Best money I spent on my Commodore (excepting the $100 for the 1581 :-). Order from http://www.cmdweb.com/ or call +1 800 6383 CMD. The SKU# is "TURBO232" and the current list price is $39.95. They go up to 57.6kbps on the stock machine, and SuperCPU-equipped systems can max out at 384 (IIRC). I use a US Robotics 28.8 Sportster PC external modem. There is lots of software out there that supports it, including NovaTerm, a version of Columbia University Kermit, and others. ::I happen to already have an IDE interface for the C-64 (and a 1.3" KittyHawk ::drive to go with it); I'd love to stick a browser on there and go. If ::possible, I'd probably try to retrofit an ACIA to a recycled C-64 game cart ::with some creative wiring. Presumably at low speeds, DMA is not required. All the cart does is map the ACIA into the $de00 addressing space and the software applications are responsible for talking to it. I do have some plans for a BYO ACIA cart, but I have not myself used them, so it's at your own risk. Look at http://www.retrobits.com/ckb/display.cgi?645 HyperLink will run at 1200 baud with a user port interface. This is supported so that all systems can browse the web, but I can assure you, it's unpleasant :-P ::As they say, it's not how well the bear dances, but that the bear can dance ::at all. Actually, I think it doesn't dance too badly. There are no inline images, but you can view them seamlessly -- it will furnish you with faux URLs that interface to its built-in image processor. I see .jpegs and .gifs with no trouble, and at 26.4kbps they appear in around 15-20 seconds (they're dithered down to 2 colour, but it still looks good). The text portion of the browser is colour, and it supports font sizes and most of HTML 1.0. Think of it as Mosaic for the 64. :-) All of this is on the stock machine. Screenshots of some earlier builds are at http://www.armory.com/~spectre/cwi/hl/webshots.html -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- He hadn't a single redeeming vice. -- Oscar Wilde -------------------------- From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Apr 21 12:32:18 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:00 2005 Subject: VCF Europa & My Appearance at Oxford In-Reply-To: <200004211552.IAA15574@siconic.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000421133218.013d59d0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Sellam Ismail may have mentioned these words: > >VCF 1.0e is about a week away and plans are rolling right along. It >should prove to be a smashing event. My German lessons are >progressing nicely and I can now ask for beer in German and get >directions to the nearest toilet. Next week I hope to be able to apologize >in German for vomiting on your shoes. Well, a good quick way to practice once you get over there is have a few, quick shots of Jaegermeister uninitiated... I don't care if the Deutche translation is "Master Hunter" or something like that... I figured out it should be more like "Volcano in Stomach" or somesuch... ;-) 'Tis too bad you're not making a pit-stop in Northern Michigan on your way back -- I'd pay handsomly for a case of good, German Altbier... :-) [[ Re: England ]] >We can go get one of those big, tall >beers at a local pub afterwards. ^^^^^ Erm... if you don't want to upset the locals, call it an "ale." ;-) Technically, however, beer is made with hops as a bittering agent, ale is made with spices other than hops, IIRC. [[ Oh, and German "sign-language" is a bit different as well - the hand sign with the thumb and index finger touching, making an 'O' with the three remaining fingers extended and seperated generally used in the USA to mean "O.K." means "asshole" in Germany... use the "thumbs-up" which in the USA is used to hitch a ride, in Germany means "Number one" / "First-rate" / "Top-Notch". Also, Germans hand-count differently as well - they go by the "highest-number finger" method, which means the number of fingers/digits extended means nothing, only the "ordinal" of the highest number digit will be counted. Thumb == 1 Index Finger == 2 Middle Finger == 3 Ring Finger == 4 Pinky Finger == 5 So if you hold up your index and middle fingers in what in the USA would be a count of 2 beers, the waiter will gladly bring you 3 beers (remember, middle number == 3, and that's the highest number finger. If you hold up *only* your pinky finger, you are still asking for 5 beers. I got more free beer that way in Germany... Them: Why did the waiter bring 3 beers when I only asked for two? Me: Give me the extra beer and I'll tell you why... ;-) ;-) ]] Take care and have fun, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Apr 21 13:50:27 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:00 2005 Subject: Intel i960 evaluation board In-Reply-To: <200004210223.TAA04134@opus.allegro.com> (ss@allegro.com) References: <200004210223.TAA04134@opus.allegro.com> Message-ID: <20000421185027.15557.qmail@brouhaha.com> Stan wrote: > No, but I have an i960 based Unix machine I wouldn't mind trading away. > (It works, but I can't logon ... don't know the root password, and > haven't had time to crack it) i960, or i860? I wasn't aware that any i960 Unix boxes had been shipped. The i960 family was the stripped-down commercial version of the ill-fated Gemini (P7) 33-bit (not a typo!) processor, a collaboration between Intel and Siemens. The two companies created a workstation company called BiiN to sell the workstations, and although they shipped some prerelease machines, AFAIK they never offered any for sale. Intel dropped the 33rd bit and some of the fancy object-oriented features to produce the i960. Only a few of the i960 variants contain an MMU, and most of them don't even have floating point. Intel ended up pushing them as embedded controllers. From whdawson at mlynk.com Fri Apr 21 14:01:22 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:00 2005 Subject: VCF Europa & My Appearance at Oxford In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000421133218.013d59d0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <000b01bfabc3$fc0631a0$b0e3dfd0@cobweb.net> -> Well, a good quick way to practice once you get over there is have a few, -> quick shots of Jaegermeister uninitiated... I don't care if the Deutche -> translation is "Master Hunter" or something like that... I figured out it -> should be more like "Volcano in Stomach" or somesuch... ;-) I remember well my first experience with Jaegermeister. It was during a business excursion to Rechlinghausen. This Jaegermeister substance, and my use of same, caused me to miss a trip to Munich the next day (Pink Floyd, The Wall concert) d8^( Not a recommended substance for the uninitiated with plans for the next day. Bill From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 21 14:12:21 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:00 2005 Subject: Progress on NEC APC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Apr 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > DIR but they all come back with "NO FILE". Now of course this means > This message is also telling you a couple of good (?) things. Firstly > that the drive/controller is managing to read valid sectors off the disk > (so the drive is working, the heads are clean enough to read something, > etc). Otherwise you'd be getting the well-known BDOS errors. Also, by not getting error messages, that it's finding the sector numbers that it's looking for, therefore it has the expected number of bytes per sector and range of sector numbers (do the numbers start at 0, 1, 20, ...) I just checked, and the NEC 8" CP/M diskettes that i"ve seen have 256 bytes per sector; but not the MS-DOS ones, therefore I retract my previous suggestion that these might be MS-DOS diskettes. > And secondly the directory makes some sense as a CP/M directory. At least > the system thinks it does, and it thinks its empty. So it's likely (not > certain ) that the disks are CP/M86 ones. Definitely not CERTAIN. An empty CP/M directory is indistinguishable from a blank formatted track, and similar to empty MS-DOS directory sectors. Since CP/M had reserved track(s), the CP/M directory would miss the FAT, and could easily occupy sectors at the end of an MS-DOS directory. MS Stand-alone-BASIC, which was used on a lot of NEC products, but which I haven't seen on the APC, had a directory similar to the Coco on a middle track; the track used by CP/M for its directory could be empty. The NEC 8" CP/M diskettes that I've seen have had several different numbers of reserved tracks; therefore it could be a CP/M format, but not the RIGHT one. > I think one option to the STAT command (STAT USERS, STAT [USERS] ???) > will tell you at least which user numbers have files on the disk Do you have any communication with the makers of the disks? Is THEIR APC working? If so, try STAT DSK: on both machines and compare. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From chris at mainecoon.com Fri Apr 21 14:18:43 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:00 2005 Subject: OT: Jagermeister [was: Re: VCF Europa & My Appearance at Oxford] References: <3.0.1.32.20000421133218.013d59d0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <3900A993.35824B2E@mainecoon.com> Roger Merchberger wrote: [snip > Well, a good quick way to practice once you get over there is have a few, > quick shots of Jaegermeister uninitiated... I don't care if the Deutche > translation is "Master Hunter" or something like that... I figured out it > should be more like "Volcano in Stomach" or somesuch... ;-) Oh christ. One of my cars gets wrenched on by the guy who maintains the Jaegermeister 934; one of the perks (or perhaps a prerequisite) of the job appears to be an endless supply of Jagermeister and related banners, glasses and the like. There's a Jagermeister shrine of sorts in one corner of the shop, consisting of cases of the stuff, a dedicated refrigerator filled with it, assorted dirty glasses and a 55-gallon drum which is usually overflowing with empty Jagermeister bottles (which is a staggering sight). Every time I collect my car after one of its multi-month sojourns in this shop there's an obligatory ritual of being offered a shot of this stuff for the road because, and I quote, "...it's completely harmless...", an assertion I find (literally) difficult to swallow given that the stuff seems to be composed of equal parts herbal cough syrup and Draino. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Apr 21 14:31:37 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:00 2005 Subject: PDP flip-chips Message-ID: <200004211931.TAA01006@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Ok, can someone explain why flip-chips keep selling for serious cash on Ebay? I thought one thing people liked about flip-chips was how easy they are to repair, ie, they are typicaly either transistor/resistor/diode circuits, or possibly even simpler circuits implemented with very basic IC's... If someone is looking for a particular flip chip, and is willing to trade some PDP8/E interface board for it, or something else PDP8 related, just let me know. I picked up a bunch of flip chips reciently, i was planning to use them in a display someday (ie, rows of flip chips plugged into wire-wrapped backplanes). -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu From elvey at hal.com Fri Apr 21 14:32:52 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:00 2005 Subject: Progress on NEC APC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200004211932.MAA06794@civic.hal.com> "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > On Fri, 21 Apr 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > DIR but they all come back with "NO FILE". Now of course this means > > This message is also telling you a couple of good (?) things. Firstly > > that the drive/controller is managing to read valid sectors off the disk > > (so the drive is working, the heads are clean enough to read something, > > etc). Otherwise you'd be getting the well-known BDOS errors. > > Also, by not getting error messages, that it's finding the sector numbers > that it's looking for, therefore it has the expected number of bytes per > sector and range of sector numbers (do the numbers start at 0, 1, 20, ...) > I just checked, and the NEC 8" CP/M diskettes that i"ve seen have 256 > bytes per sector; but not the MS-DOS ones, therefore I retract my previous > suggestion that these might be MS-DOS diskettes. > Hi Fred I take back what I said earlier. You are correct, the fact that it did respond with "NO FILE" indicates that the surface was being read. I haven't fiddle enough with CP/M86 but I'd think that the post about USERs might have some relevance. I don't think is is a MS-DOS disk either. The FAT and such take up a lot of space and surely wouldn't return "NO FILE" if CP/M tried to read it. I think the first step is to try the STAT command as was suggested by someone else. That will at least tell you if space was reserved for any data by the CP/M OS. It is still possible that someone used the disk to write directly to sectors. There is a program called VIEW or something that allows direct sector viewing. That might be a good thing to try. Dwight PS Sellam Ismail doesn't subscribe to this group so could people responding to his questions please CC him at: dastar@siconic.com I have forwarded all of the earlier post so far. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 21 14:39:30 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:00 2005 Subject: VCF Europa & My Appearance at Oxford In-Reply-To: <200004211552.IAA15574@siconic.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Apr 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > VCF 1.0e is about a week away and plans are rolling right along. It > should prove to be a smashing event. My German lessons are > progressing nicely and I can now ask for beer in German and get > directions to the nearest toilet. Next week I hope to be able to apologize > in German for vomiting on your shoes. Better take along a LOT of visual aids (slides, overhead foils, etc.) If that's the extent of your German, then 45 minutes is going to call for a LOT of beer drinking, toilet visiting, and vomiting! Maybe you should have Hans translate, or rely on their knowing some English. > I'm also giving a talk at Oxford (that would be in England :) at the So you're going to have to learn British, also. Remember that we are two peoples divided by a common language. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From af-list at wfi-inc.com Fri Apr 21 14:39:51 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:00 2005 Subject: VCF Europa & My Appearance at Oxford In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000421133218.013d59d0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Apr 2000, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Erm... if you don't want to upset the locals, call it an "ale." ;-) > Technically, however, beer is made with hops as a bittering agent, ale is > made with spices other than hops, IIRC. Technically, yes. Ale goes all the way back to Sumeria, and was composed of malted grains, yeast, and water. Around the 15th-16th centuries, hops was added for bittering and as a natural preservative. Beer has become, however, a generic term for Ales (using hops), Real Ales (traditional ancient recipe), Lagers, and others. Of course the difference between an "ale" and a "lager" is the fermentation temperature and type of yeast used. Cheers, Aaron (who has an IPA finishing secondary right now...already delicious!) From donm at cts.com Fri Apr 21 15:29:24 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:00 2005 Subject: Progress on NEC APC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Apr 2000, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Fri, 21 Apr 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > I stuck the disks I'm trying to recover data from in the B: drive and did a > > DIR but they all come back with "NO FILE". Now of course this means > > that the disks contain no files but I'm thinking there has to be something > > wrong here. > > The system disk is CP/M-86. I still don't know what format the disks in > > question are but I assumed they were also CP/M-86. > Why? > > What could be > > amiss here, aside from the possibility that the disks ARE empty? What > > utilities are available to me on the system disk to view a raw dump of the > > target disks? > > The APC cupported both CP/M-86 and MS-DOS. Later today I'll look up some > specs to try to predict what the CP/M-86 would see on the MS-DOS format. It gives you a big fat error message. His report of the "NO FILES" response from DIR would indicate that the disk(s) are CP/M-86 format, and would be consistant with either no files at all and also no files in the user area - normally 0. There is, regrettably, no program like SHOW on the CP/M-86 system disk. You just have to step through each user area and issue the DIR command. - don > > I can't believe after all this effort that these damn disks contain nothing. > > Happens all the time. People often send the wrong diskettes. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > > From ss at allegro.com Fri Apr 21 15:27:14 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: Intel i960 evaluation board In-Reply-To: <20000421185027.15557.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <200004210223.TAA04134@opus.allegro.com> Message-ID: <200004212029.NAA10004@opus.allegro.com> Hi, > > No, but I have an i960 based Unix machine I wouldn't mind trading away. > i960, or i860? I wasn't aware that any i960 Unix boxes had been shipped. Oops...mental typo. I meant i860. Sorry! SS Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 21 15:39:07 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: PDP flip-chips In-Reply-To: <200004211931.TAA01006@thorin.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Apr 21, 2000 07:31:37 PM Message-ID: <200004212039.NAA00320@shell1.aracnet.com> > > Ok, can someone explain why flip-chips keep selling for serious cash on > Ebay? I thought one thing people liked about flip-chips was how easy > they are to repair, ie, they are typicaly either transistor/resistor/diode > circuits, or possibly even simpler circuits implemented with very basic > IC's... My guess is that unless they're someone on this list they're being used as ornaments :^( I picked up a couple lots about a year ago when they were going for less than they do now. What's disgusting is seeing a single flip-chip that's fairly common goign for big bucks. Zane From foxvideo at wincom.net Fri Apr 21 15:36:58 2000 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: VCF Europa & My Appearance at Oxford In-Reply-To: References: <200004211552.IAA15574@siconic.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000421163658.007be3f0@mail.wincom.net> At 12:39 PM 4/21/2000 -0700, you wrote: >On Fri, 21 Apr 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: >> VCF 1.0e is about a week away and plans are rolling right along. It > >Better take along a LOT of visual aids (slides, overhead foils, etc.) If >that's the extent of your German, then 45 minutes is going to call for a >LOT of beer drinking, toilet visiting, and vomiting! >Maybe you should have Hans translate, or rely on their knowing some >English. > >> I'm also giving a talk at Oxford (that would be in England :) at the > >So you're going to have to learn British, also. Remember that we are two >peoples divided by a common language. > >-- >Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > You know what Professor Higgens said, "In America they haven't spoken it in years!" Maybe Sam could get Tony to translate. Cheers Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo Check out "The Old Walkerville Virtual Museum" at http://www.skyboom.com/foxvideo --works best with I.E.5 From donm at cts.com Fri Apr 21 15:40:07 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: Progress on NEC APC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Apr 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > I stuck the disks I'm trying to recover data from in the B: drive and did a > > DIR but they all come back with "NO FILE". Now of course this means > > that the disks contain no files but I'm thinking there has to be something > > wrong here. > > This message is also telling you a couple of good (?) things. Firstly > that the drive/controller is managing to read valid sectors off the disk > (so the drive is working, the heads are clean enough to read something, > etc). Otherwise you'd be getting the well-known BDOS errors. > > And secondly the directory makes some sense as a CP/M directory. At least > the system thinks it does, and it thinks its empty. So it's likely (not > certain ) that the disks are CP/M86 ones. > > One quick question. Have you tried using the USER command to look at > other users files on the disk? The user facilty of CP/M is pretty > useless, actually and mainly serves to cause problems like this. At > boot-up you're likely to be user 0, but you can change this to a number > between 0 and 15 IIRC. > > I think one option to the STAT command (STAT USERS, STAT [USERS] ???) > will tell you at least which user numbers have files on the disk Good thought, Tony. The command is STAT USR: and it will return two lines of information. The first reflects the current user area, while the second reflects user areas that contain files. - don > -tony > > From elvey at hal.com Fri Apr 21 15:53:12 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: Progress on NEC APC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200004212053.NAA07857@civic.hal.com> Don Maslin wrote: > > It gives you a big fat error message. His report of the "NO FILES" response > from DIR would indicate that the disk(s) are CP/M-86 format, and would be > consistant with either no files at all and also no files in the user area - > normally 0. There is, regrettably, no program like SHOW on the CP/M-86 > system disk. You just have to step through each user area and issue the > DIR command. Hi Does CP/M-86 have a direct call to read a sector like CP/M-2.2 does? If so, it wouldn't take much code to make a sector viewer. Dwight From donm at cts.com Fri Apr 21 16:03:57 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: Progress on NEC APC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Apr 2000, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Fri, 21 Apr 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > DIR but they all come back with "NO FILE". Now of course this means > > This message is also telling you a couple of good (?) things. Firstly > > that the drive/controller is managing to read valid sectors off the disk > > (so the drive is working, the heads are clean enough to read something, > > etc). Otherwise you'd be getting the well-known BDOS errors. > > Also, by not getting error messages, that it's finding the sector numbers > that it's looking for, therefore it has the expected number of bytes per > sector and range of sector numbers (do the numbers start at 0, 1, 20, ...) > I just checked, and the NEC 8" CP/M diskettes that i"ve seen have 256 > bytes per sector; but not the MS-DOS ones, therefore I retract my previous > suggestion that these might be MS-DOS diskettes. True, it is finding the sector numbers it is looking for, but it also is finding E5H where it expects to find the user area number or there could be either an error message or perhaps a garbaged directory display if it found 00H by chance. > > And secondly the directory makes some sense as a CP/M directory. At least > > the system thinks it does, and it thinks its empty. So it's likely (not > > certain ) that the disks are CP/M86 ones. > > Definitely not CERTAIN. An empty CP/M directory is indistinguishable from > a blank formatted track, and similar to empty MS-DOS directory sectors. But MS-DOS does not use E5H and does use 00H fill in directory areas. I suspect that this might confuse the CP/M-86 directory program a bit - a whole bunch of null filled directory entries, all at user 0! - don > Since CP/M had reserved track(s), the CP/M directory would miss the FAT, > and could easily occupy sectors at the end of an MS-DOS directory. MS > Stand-alone-BASIC, which was used on a lot of NEC products, but which I > haven't seen on the APC, had a directory similar to the Coco on a middle > track; the track used by CP/M for its directory could be empty. The NEC > 8" CP/M diskettes that I've seen have had several different numbers of > reserved tracks; therefore it could be a CP/M format, but not the RIGHT > one. > > > > I think one option to the STAT command (STAT USERS, STAT [USERS] ???) > > will tell you at least which user numbers have files on the disk > > Do you have any communication with the makers of the disks? Is THEIR APC > working? If so, try STAT DSK: on both machines and compare. > > -- > Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com > XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com > 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 > Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 21 16:05:55 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: Progress on NEC APC In-Reply-To: <200004211932.MAA06794@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Apr 2000, Dwight Elvey wrote: > . . . I don't think is is a MS-DOS disk > either. The FAT and such take up a lot of space and > surely wouldn't return "NO FILE" if CP/M tried to read it. In THIS case, I take it back, but because the NEC 8" CP/M disks that I've seen used 256 bytes per sctor. Although the FAT and such take up a lot of space, it's not THAT much, and CP/M skips some tracks. A typical 8" (or 1.2M 5.25") MS-DOS uses 1/2K for the boot sector, 2 copies of the FAT at 3.5K each, and 7K for the DIRectory sectors. That is all done with by the end of the second side of the first cylinder (#0). On double density CP/M 8", the directory hardly ever starts before the first side of the second (#1) cylinder. Plus, the latter parts (unused if the disk isn't full) of the MS-DOS DIRectory sectors could be misinterpreted by CP/M as an empty directory. Therefore, it's possible (although somewhat demented - BTDT) to actually have two different DIRectory structures that access the same files in order to create a distribution disk that is readable by multiple OS's! BTW, MS-DOS CAN have reserved tracks, but I can't remember anyone other than DEC Rainbow doing so. BTW2, MS-DOS uses the sectors in consecutive order, CP/M often does not. BTW3, MS-DOS uses both the second head of the cylinder before stepping to the next cylinder. Many CP/M formats use all tracks of the first head before using the second head. > I think the first step is to try the STAT command as was > suggested by someone else. That will at least tell you > if space was reserved for any data by the CP/M OS. Since the info reported by STAT is based on what it sees in the DIRectory sectors, it would be based on the same wrong source data, and the NO FILE diskette would be reported as empty. > It is still possible that someone used the disk to > write directly to sectors. There is a program called > VIEW or something that allows direct sector viewing. > That might be a good thing to try. That would be great. But we'd need to get a copy onto Sellam's APC. Does DDT86 have a read sector command? -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Fri Apr 21 16:18:43 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: PDP flip-chips In-Reply-To: <200004211931.TAA01006@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <002301bfabd7$2cca3170$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> > Ok, can someone explain why flip-chips keep selling for > serious cash on Ebay? No real idea, except that generation 4? ** computation is rarely found on eBay. Never seen annything from an IBM 1401 for example. Remember that guy tring to sell the door off a Univac? Pretty pathetic. Don't know my gen. numbers... 1? 2? 3? 4? 5? 6? gears relays tubes transistors ic vlsic (Lawrence LeMay) > i was planning to use them in a display someday > (ie, rows of flip chips plugged into wire-wrapped > backplanes). BTW, I know a place where wirewrap-able Q?bus modules were still available a short time ago if anyone's interested. I was considering offering them on eb as table stands for all those overpriced flipchips From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Apr 21 16:21:58 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: VCF Europa & My Appearance at Oxford In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000421133218.013d59d0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: >> Erm... if you don't want to upset the locals, call it an "ale." ;-) >> Technically, however, beer is made with hops as a bittering agent, ale is >> made with spices other than hops, IIRC. > >Technically, yes. Ale goes all the way back to Sumeria, and was composed Any discussion of beer that doesn't include drinking some, strikes me as a wasted opportunity. Isn't it about time for the usual springtime attempts at local get togethers? Perhaps something sophisticated like a kegger at some surplus joint? From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 21 16:35:10 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: Progress on NEC APC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Apr 2000, Don Maslin wrote: > > what the CP/M-86 would see on the MS-DOS format. > It gives you a big fat error message. In THIS case, due to sector size differences. But not ALWAYS. I have seen non-CP/M disks with E5 where a CP/M directory would have been. MS-DOS will give a big FAT :-) error message when trying to read CP/M (actually "Probable Non-DOS disk") because it is picky about what it expects to see in the F.A.T. Due to reserved tracks, on 8" double density, CP/M's DIRectory will fall AFTER the end of the MS-DOS directory, where the first file would otherwise be likely to be. You're right that that would almost certainly be content that would choke CP/M. But with very short files and large clusters, and with sector interleave, it is entirely possible to have CP/M looking at unused sectors. Both MS-DOS and CP/M will accept and assume "empty" when encountering a DIRectory (not the MS-DOS F.A.T.) sector of all E5. MOST MS-DOS formats fill the empty directory sectors with 00, but not all. Some use E5, some F6 with E5 every 32 bytes, ... What would CP/M-86 report for a directory sector of all 00? An MS-DOS format with a large directory could easily leave the END of the MS-DOS directory sectors where the first of the CP/M directory sectors would be. I don't often see use of USER in CP/M disks. Sometimes, but not often. I think that it is more likely that they gave Sellam blank formatted diskettes. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From elvey at hal.com Fri Apr 21 16:45:35 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: Progress on NEC APC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200004212145.OAA08575@civic.hal.com> "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > On Fri, 21 Apr 2000, Dwight Elvey wrote: > > . . . I don't think is is a MS-DOS disk > > either. The FAT and such take up a lot of space and > > surely wouldn't return "NO FILE" if CP/M tried to read it. > > In THIS case, I take it back, but because the NEC 8" CP/M disks that I've > seen used 256 bytes per sctor. > > Although the FAT and such take up a lot of space, it's not THAT much, and > CP/M skips some tracks. A typical 8" (or 1.2M 5.25") MS-DOS uses 1/2K for > the boot sector, 2 copies of the FAT at 3.5K each, and 7K for the > DIRectory sectors. That is all done with by the end of the second side of > the first cylinder (#0). On double density CP/M 8", the directory hardly > ever starts before the first side of the second (#1) cylinder. Plus, the > latter parts (unused if the disk isn't full) of the MS-DOS DIRectory > sectors could be misinterpreted by CP/M as an empty directory. > Therefore, it's possible (although somewhat demented - BTDT) to actually > have two different DIRectory structures that access the same files in > order to create a distribution disk that is readable by multiple OS's! > Hi Fred I hadn't thought this through. I just assumed that since DOS has two copies of the FAT that it would stretch past the area that CP/M usually uses. I guess that Sam needs some way to look at raw sectors. I don't think we can assume anything other than it looks like he can at least read the directory area. Although there are not as many basic tools for CP/M-86 as were made for CP/M 2.2, I'm sure someone had a sector viewer program. My gut feeling is that the disk have no data on them and were either accidentally formatted or no data was originally copied to them. From what you say, it is still possible that they might have a DOS format. If one can extract the FAT, the data can be found. Of course the DOS directory would tie it all together. Dwight From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 21 16:53:30 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: Progress on NEC APC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Apr 2000, Don Maslin wrote: > True, it is finding the sector numbers it is looking for, but it also is > finding E5H where it expects to find the user area number or there could > be either an error message or perhaps a garbaged directory display if it > found 00H by chance. > But MS-DOS does not use E5H and does use 00H fill in directory areas. I > suspect that this might confuse the CP/M-86 directory program a bit - a > whole bunch of null filled directory entries, all at user 0! Actually, MS-DOS will accept 00 OR E5 for directory fill. I've seen bothIf the first byte of a directory entry is E5, then the space used by that entry is available. If 00, then it is available, and no subsequent entries have been used, so any directory search routines, including DIR can stop. Any time a file is deleted, in addition to appropriate manipulation of the FAT data, the first byte is changed to E5. There used to be some silly "prevent this deleted file from being undeleted" shareware programs that would e5 the rest of the entry. A freshly formatted MS-DOS SHOULD be filled with 00. But E5 will still work, and SOME companies used it, particularly in the early days. Also, some used F6, with a 00 or an E5 every 32 bytes. We are talking about MS-DOS, but NOT IBM compatible. There were some weird ones. ALSO, due to reserved tracks, the MS-DOS directory is earlier on the disk than the CP/M one. Depending on size of the MS-DOS directory, number of CP/M reserved tracks, side patterns, and interleave, they might or might not overlap. The CP/M directory is more likely to start at about cluster number 2. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From elvey at hal.com Fri Apr 21 16:53:02 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: PDP flip-chips In-Reply-To: <002301bfabd7$2cca3170$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <200004212153.OAA08660@civic.hal.com> "John Allain" wrote: > > > Ok, can someone explain why flip-chips keep selling for > > serious cash on Ebay? > > No real idea, > except that generation 4? ** computation is rarely found > on eBay. Never seen annything from an IBM 1401 for > example. Remember that guy tring to sell the door > off a Univac? Pretty pathetic. The seller mis-states the item as well. He says it includes "tech specs" when the picture clearly shows "test specs". One would have a real hard time doing much with those. Dwight From elvey at hal.com Fri Apr 21 17:01:42 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: Progress on NEC APC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200004212201.PAA08790@civic.hal.com> "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > > I don't often see use of USER in CP/M disks. Sometimes, but not often. I > think that it is more likely that they gave Sellam blank formatted > diskettes. Hi I agree with Fred but one must make all attempts when people have valued data. I have known programs that bypass the OS to improve speed in data logging. This usually makes for interesting problems when soemone tries to read them without the right tool. I wouldn't give up until I saw the data on all the sectors, or at least the first 3 or 4 tracks. It is also possible that someone erased the files, giving the empty directory. The data would still be on the disc but it might be fragmented. Dwight From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 21 17:22:37 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: PDP flip-chips In-Reply-To: Re: PDP flip-chips (healyzh@aracnet.com) References: <200004211931.TAA01006@thorin.cs.umn.edu> <200004212039.NAA00320@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <14592.54445.804232.921509@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 21, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > Ok, can someone explain why flip-chips keep selling for serious cash on > > Ebay? I thought one thing people liked about flip-chips was how easy > > they are to repair, ie, they are typicaly either transistor/resistor/diode > > circuits, or possibly even simpler circuits implemented with very basic > > IC's... > > My guess is that unless they're someone on this list they're being used as > ornaments :^( I picked up a couple lots about a year ago when they were > going for less than they do now. What's disgusting is seeing a single > flip-chip that's fairly common goign for big bucks. I think "common" is a matter of geography. Now, flip chips are much easier to ship than big BA11 chassis, but...I've been looking for a simple, run-of-the-mill pdp11/34a system around here (Maryland, DC area) for the better part of two years...no dice...and many people say the 11/34 is one of the most common DEC machines around. I think some sort of central "clearing house" might help...we all have projects involving machines that need one component or another. Many of us will ask our local friends, then post to lists like this one, etc., and often the results are good...but sometimes not. I'm just thinking aloud here; this is a half-baked idea...maybe some sort of web server with long-term lists of stuff we all have available on the trading block, and maybe wish lists as well. Something to facilitate better communications amongst folks like us that don't necessarily know each other. Any thoughts? -Dave McGuire From jpl15 at netcom.com Fri Apr 21 17:25:59 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: Meet at VCFE Message-ID: I will also be inflicting myself on VCFE; I will be arriving in Munchen Thurs morning and returning Monday; it will be a Big Fun to meet anyone from the List who will be there. Cheers John PS: a 'picture' of me is on the VCF 3.0 website... I exhibited the Heathkit Large Analogue Computer, and was unfortunately too close to it when Sellam took the photo. :( So you can figure out who I am without having to decode eine NamenTag. From Innfogra at aol.com Fri Apr 21 17:28:32 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: Biin Box, was 960 / 860 Board Message-ID: <13.439939d.26323010@aol.com> The BIIN Computer was not a workstation. It was a fault tolerant transaction processing machine of the late 1980s. It was to compete against Tandon and IBM. The plans were to build 100 machines and put them out for trial and then ramp up for production. It used a variant of the i860 with multiple processors and 64 or 128 Megs of ram, a 300 Meg HD for SW and mirrored IPI drives for data. Nice computer with the entire chassis made to very high German standards in Germany and airfreighted to here (Portland, OR). Unfortunately we had a contract to dismantle and destroy all the machines returned to intel after they closed down. Intel pulled all of the processor chips before they even got to us. A very interesting machine, the chassis took four hours to strip by our most experienced person. For intel, Siemens was impossible to deal with, talk about a culture clash. They were happy to see the project end. Intel had 5 or 10% with Siemens the rest. When it became apparent that it was going to cost a huge amount of money to compete, the BIIN Company was offered for sale and then shut down and liquidated. I have the original nail board for the BIIN Processor Card with all of it's original documentation. If anyone out there is interested please contact me off line at whoagiii@aol.com. I got the nail bed in another sale that was not covered under the contract. Paxton From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Apr 21 17:44:09 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: Biin Box, was 960 / 860 Board In-Reply-To: <13.439939d.26323010@aol.com> (Innfogra@aol.com) References: <13.439939d.26323010@aol.com> Message-ID: <20000421224409.16912.qmail@brouhaha.com> Paxton wrote: > The BIIN Computer was not a workstation. It was a fault tolerant transaction > processing machine of the late 1980s. It was to compete against Tandon and > IBM. The plans were to build 100 machines and put them out for trial and > then ramp up for production. I was peripherally involved in the software development for the machine back in 1986, and I can assure you that we most certainly were designing workstations as well as servers. > It used a variant of the i860 with multiple processors and 64 or 128 Megs of > ram, a 300 Meg HD for SW and mirrored IPI drives for data. Nice computer with No, it did not use *any* variant of the i860. It used the predecessor of the i960, which was code-named Gemini and P7. This processor was in some sense a successor to the ill-fated iAPX 432. It was not in any way "compatible" with the 432, but the objectives (fault tolerance in both hardware and software) were the same, and they learned from the mistakes of the 432 design. Some of the 432 designers worked on the P7. The i860 was not even sampled until 1990, and did not have any focus on fault tolerance. It was intended for floating-point intensive applications. Although it was possible to run Unix on it, it was not especially well-suited for it. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 21 16:24:36 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: VCF Europa & My Appearance at Oxford In-Reply-To: from "Aaron Christopher Finney" at Apr 21, 0 12:39:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 302 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000421/b7f34cfd/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 21 16:22:58 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: PDP flip-chips In-Reply-To: <200004211931.TAA01006@thorin.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Apr 21, 0 07:31:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1754 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000421/80326e06/attachment.ksh From donm at cts.com Fri Apr 21 19:02:33 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: Progress on NEC APC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Apr 2000, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Fri, 21 Apr 2000, Don Maslin wrote: > > > what the CP/M-86 would see on the MS-DOS format. > > It gives you a big fat error message. > > In THIS case, due to sector size differences. But not ALWAYS. I have > seen non-CP/M disks with E5 where a CP/M directory would have been. I don't recall running across that, but I'll be alert now. > MS-DOS will give a big FAT :-) error message when trying to read CP/M > (actually "Probable Non-DOS disk") because it is picky about what it > expects to see in the F.A.T. Agreed. > Due to reserved tracks, on 8" double density, CP/M's DIRectory will > fall AFTER the end of the MS-DOS directory, where the first file would > otherwise be likely to be. You're right that that would almost certainly > be content that would choke CP/M. But with very short files and large > clusters, and with sector interleave, it is entirely possible to have CP/M > looking at unused sectors. Possible, but... > Both MS-DOS and CP/M will accept and assume "empty" when encountering > a DIRectory (not the MS-DOS F.A.T.) sector of all E5. MOST MS-DOS formats > fill the empty directory sectors with 00, but not all. Some use E5, some > F6 with E5 every 32 bytes, ... What would CP/M-86 report for a directory Rather like a CP/M directory that had its files deleted :) > sector of all 00? An MS-DOS format with a large directory could easily > leave the END of the MS-DOS directory sectors where the first of the CP/M > directory sectors would be. Agreed. I'll have to try the 00 bit and see what does actually happen. I'll let you know. > I don't often see use of USER in CP/M disks. Sometimes, but not often. I > think that it is more likely that they gave Sellam blank formatted > diskettes. I wouldn't argue that. On the other hand, it would be prudent to check. If he would mail one or more of the disks to me, I could examine them and probably provide an answer. - don From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Apr 21 19:06:09 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: PDP flip-chips In-Reply-To: <14592.54445.804232.921509@phaduka.neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Apr 21, 2000 03:22:37 pm" Message-ID: <200004220006.TAA29026@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > I think some sort of central "clearing house" might help...we all > have projects involving machines that need one component or another. > Many of us will ask our local friends, then post to lists like this > one, etc., and often the results are good...but sometimes not. > > I'm just thinking aloud here; this is a half-baked idea...maybe some > sort of web server with long-term lists of stuff we all have available > on the trading block, and maybe wish lists as well. Something to > facilitate better communications amongst folks like us that don't > necessarily know each other. Any thoughts? > > -Dave McGuire Actually this is a very good idea. It eliminates the necessity for each of us to make our own web areas just to list what we have for sale or trade, plus it brings all the information together into one URL. It does me little good if i recall 2 years from now that someone listed some stuff on some site that I now need, if i can no longer FIND the obscure site anymore... -Lawrence LeMay From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 21 18:03:14 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: Progress on NEC APC Message-ID: <008501bfabeb$0e0fbd40$7664c0d0@ajp166> > Does CP/M-86 have a direct call to read a sector like >CP/M-2.2 does? If so, it wouldn't take much code >to make a sector viewer. >Dwight The jump table for the first 17 bios calls or so are as identical as you can ask for considering some of the CPU differences. The key ones are: seldisk settrack setsector setdma read write Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 21 18:10:51 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: Intel i960 evaluation board Message-ID: <008601bfabeb$0ed975e0$7664c0d0@ajp166> >i960, or i860? I wasn't aware that any i960 Unix boxes had been shipped. > >The i960 family was the stripped-down commercial version of the ill-fated >Gemini (P7) 33-bit (not a typo!) processor, a collaboration between Intel >and Siemens. The two companies created a workstation company called BiiN >to sell the workstations, and although they shipped some prerelease >machines, AFAIK they never offered any for sale. It also grew from the 8089 (20 bit) and the 8751(8bit) for embedded processing tasks like engine controls. Allison From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Apr 21 19:56:48 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: Intel i960 evaluation board In-Reply-To: <008601bfabeb$0ed975e0$7664c0d0@ajp166> (allisonp@world.std.com) References: <008601bfabeb$0ed975e0$7664c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <20000422005648.17511.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > The i960 family was the stripped-down commercial version of the ill-fated > Gemini (P7) 33-bit (not a typo!) processor, a collaboration between Intel > and Siemens. The two companies created a workstation company called BiiN > to sell the workstations, and although they shipped some prerelease > machines, AFAIK they never offered any for sale. Allison wrote: > It also grew from the 8089 (20 bit) and the 8751(8bit) for embedded > processing > tasks like engine controls. Perhaps you're thinking of the 8096. The i960 has no architectural or design similarity to the 8089 or 8751, was not designed by the same engineering organization, and was not originally intended for the embedded market. As I stated previously, it was originally developed for high-reliability workstations and servers. Intel's ended up pushing the i960 for embedded use only after it failed to be accepted as a workstation-class product. The 8089 was not particularly intended for embedded applications; it was supposed to be a channel controller, i.e., a smart DMA controller able to perform functions similar to the channels on IBM mainframes. It is very poorly suited to general purpose (non-DMA) use, even for embedded systems (unless the embedded system needs a fancy DMA controller). The only thing 20-bit about the 8089 is the address, but at least it was a flat 20-bit space unlike that of the 8086. From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 21 20:08:38 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: Intel i960 evaluation board References: <008601bfabeb$0ed975e0$7664c0d0@ajp166> <20000422005648.17511.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <001001bfabf7$4b7083c0$0400c0a8@winbook> That's odd ... I remember the i960 being touted as the cat's meow for laser printers and other highly demanding and high-speed embedded applications. I was never interested enough to investigate without a contract,however, since I am not an Intel enthusiast. Last time I saw one, it was on a MYLEX 3-channel SCSI RAID board. Could I be confusing this with something else? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Eric Smith To: Sent: Friday, April 21, 2000 6:56 PM Subject: Re: Intel i960 evaluation board > I wrote: > > The i960 family was the stripped-down commercial version of the ill-fated > > Gemini (P7) 33-bit (not a typo!) processor, a collaboration between Intel > > and Siemens. The two companies created a workstation company called BiiN > > to sell the workstations, and although they shipped some prerelease > > machines, AFAIK they never offered any for sale. > > Allison wrote: > > It also grew from the 8089 (20 bit) and the 8751(8bit) for embedded > > processing > > tasks like engine controls. > > Perhaps you're thinking of the 8096. The i960 has no architectural or > design similarity to the 8089 or 8751, was not designed by the same > engineering organization, and was not originally intended for the > embedded market. As I stated previously, it was originally developed > for high-reliability workstations and servers. > > Intel's ended up pushing the i960 for embedded use only after it failed > to be accepted as a workstation-class product. > > The 8089 was not particularly intended for embedded applications; it was > supposed to be a channel controller, i.e., a smart DMA controller able > to perform functions similar to the channels on IBM mainframes. It is > very poorly suited to general purpose (non-DMA) use, even for embedded > systems (unless the embedded system needs a fancy DMA controller). > The only thing 20-bit about the 8089 is the address, but at least it was > a flat 20-bit space unlike that of the 8086. From elvey at hal.com Fri Apr 21 20:15:35 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: Intel i960 evaluation board In-Reply-To: <001001bfabf7$4b7083c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <200004220115.SAA11435@civic.hal.com> "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > That's odd ... I remember the i960 being touted as the cat's meow for laser > printers and other highly demanding and high-speed embedded applications. I > was never interested enough to investigate without a contract,however, since > I am not an Intel enthusiast. Last time I saw one, it was on a MYLEX > 3-channel SCSI RAID board. Could I be confusing this with something else? Hi Dick I'm sure that Intel would have said this. If their fastest processor was a 8080 they would have said the same thing. It is all just marketing. Dwight From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Apr 21 20:30:57 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: Intel i960 evaluation board In-Reply-To: <001001bfabf7$4b7083c0$0400c0a8@winbook> (edick@idcomm.com) References: <008601bfabeb$0ed975e0$7664c0d0@ajp166> <20000422005648.17511.qmail@brouhaha.com> <001001bfabf7$4b7083c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <20000422013057.17667.qmail@brouhaha.com> > That's odd ... I remember the i960 being touted as the cat's meow for laser > printers and other highly demanding and high-speed embedded applications. I Nothing odd about it. That was *after* they failed to establish it as a high-end CPU. They did end up snagging many embedded design wins. From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Fri Apr 21 21:25:05 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: OT: Jagermeister [was: Re: VCF Europa & My Appearance at Oxford] Message-ID: <20000422022505.45463.qmail@hotmail.com> >Oh christ. > >One of my cars gets wrenched on by the guy who >maintains the Jaegermeister >934; one of the perks (or >perhaps a prerequisite) of the job appears to be >an >endless supply of Jagermeister and related banners, >glasses and the >like. There's a Jagermeister shrine of >sorts in one corner of the shop, >consisting of cases of >the stuff, a dedicated refrigerator filled with it, > >assorted dirty glasses and a 55-gallon drum which is >usually overflowing >with empty Jagermeister bottles >(which is a staggering sight). > >Every time I collect my car after one of its multi->month sojourns in this >shop there's an obligatory >ritual of being offered a shot of this stuff >for the >road because, and I quote, "...it's completely >harmless...", an >assertion I find (literally) difficult >to swallow given that the stuff >seems to be composed of >equal parts herbal cough syrup and Draino. > >-- >Chris Kennedy >chris@mainecoon.com >http://www.mainecoon.com >PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 Harmless!?!?!? I don't see how that stuff is harmless! I don't know if you know this, but Jagermeister has a certain little opiate in it (I'm not kidding!) that makes you extremely violent. (If you've had too much, that is.) ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Apr 21 22:38:00 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: Interesting finds; 1801, National Semiconductor RM-665, Grid,HPs.. Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000421223800.265743dc@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi All, Mike paid a visit from Jacksonville today and we had a llloonnggg day of digging for computer relics. Mike found a Grid laptop and a NIB Grid MODEM. I found a 1801A CPU! This is the predecessor to the COSMAC 1802. I never expected to see one of these. I also found a HP 45 calculator, a HP 9816 computer, a pair of HP 9121 disk drives and a National Semiconductor RM-665 computer. The NS computer uses MultiBus cards and has an Intel 80/20 CPU card with a 8080 CPU. It also has Analog Devices card with several D-A and A-D devices on it. I've never heard of a National Semiconductor computer before. Does anyone know anything about them? Mike also got a Motorola HDS-200 Hardware Developement system with the plug ins for a 6502 CPU. Does anyone have any information about these? Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Apr 21 22:45:15 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: Things that make you sick! Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000421224515.399721ce@mailhost.intellistar.net> Mike and I went to one place today and found the remains of a Data General Aiivion (sp?) in the scrap metal pile. We had gotten there too late to save it. :-( I did get the CPU module out of it. It has three large ICs on it. Two are XC88200RC25B s and the other is a MC88100RC25. Can anyone tell me what exactly these are? Joe From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Apr 21 21:45:04 2000 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: VCF Europa & My Appearance at Oxford In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000421133218.013d59d0@mail.30below.com> References: <200004211552.IAA15574@siconic.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20000421223714.00b11ef0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 01:32 PM 4/21/00 -0400, Roger Merchberger said something like: >Rumor has it that Sellam Ismail may have mentioned these words: >> >>VCF 1.0e is about a week away and plans are rolling right along. It >>should prove to be a smashing event. My German lessons are >>progressing nicely and I can now ask for beer in German and get >>directions to the nearest toilet. Next week I hope to be able to apologize >>in German for vomiting on your shoes. > >Well, a good quick way to practice once you get over there is have a few, >quick shots of Jaegermeister uninitiated... I don't care if the Deutche >translation is "Master Hunter" or something like that... I figured out it >should be more like "Volcano in Stomach" or somesuch... ;-) > >'Tis too bad you're not making a pit-stop in Northern Michigan on your way >back -- I'd pay handsomly for a case of good, German Altbier... :-) > >[[ Re: England ]] >>We can go get one of those big, tall >>beers at a local pub afterwards. > ^^^^^ > >Erm... if you don't want to upset the locals, call it an "ale." ;-) >Technically, however, beer is made with hops as a bittering agent, ale is >made with spices other than hops, IIRC. > >[[ Oh, and German "sign-language" is a bit different as well - the hand >sign with the thumb and index finger touching, making an 'O' with the three >remaining fingers extended and seperated generally used in the USA to mean >"O.K." means "asshole" in Germany... use the "thumbs-up" which in the USA >is used to hitch a ride, in Germany means "Number one" / "First-rate" / >"Top-Notch". > >Also, Germans hand-count differently as well - they go by the >"highest-number finger" method, which means the number of fingers/digits >extended means nothing, only the "ordinal" of the highest number digit will >be counted. -- snip rest of msg -- Very interesting Roger. I usually thought twice about using the "sign language" whenever I was in Germany. But, if you really wanted Sellam to see this rather informative message he may not. I believe he's still unsubscribed. Knowing him from his past presence on this list, I think you might want to let him know about some of these cultural caveats lest he gets himself into trouble ;-) He indicated he should be emailed at sellam@vintage.org. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Fri Apr 21 21:53:10 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: Somewhat OT: Then & Now. Message-ID: <20000422025310.37298.qmail@hotmail.com> This is something that I had posted on the comp.sys.cbm newsgroup that I thought would be intresting to see how much the computer world has (or hasn't) changed starting right around 1980 or so. So if you've seen this before, I apologize. Anyway, here are some things that have changed (or have they?) in the computer world: Back then we had: Daisychained peripherals to the Commodore IEC serial bus. Now we have: Daisychained peripherals to the Universal Serial Bus. Back then we had: The Original Macintosh. Now we have: The iMac. Back then we had: Computers with a built-in RF modulator. Now we have: Video cards with a built-in RF modluator. Back then we had: The Original Macintosh II. Now we have: The G3/G4 PowerMac. Back then we had: The Commodore 1581 head-knocking/Click of Death problem. Now we have: The Iomega Zip drives' Click of Death problem. Back then we had: The Macintosh Portable. Now we have: The iMac. Back then we had: The Tandy Model 100. Now we have: The PalmPilot. This is all that I could think of, I want anybody who can think of anything that hasn't changed to add something on this list. Let's show people that the old phrase "The more things change, the more things stay the same" is true! ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From dogas at leading.net Fri Apr 21 21:26:34 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: Univac 1540 Front Panalege! Message-ID: <000901bfac02$30172b00$ca646464@dogclient01> I had a great time trekking all over north and central Florida today with Joe and we both found alot of new toys. I think I mentioned seeing a Univac 1540 here on the list a while back and today (soon) before it is to fall into the metal shredder of oblivion, I *liberated* his front panels! Check out: http://users.leading.net/~dogas/classiccmp/univac/univac.htm There are several bends in the metal and I'm considering taking them to a car body shop to see if it can be straightened out unless anyone has a better idea... A happy and tired... - Mike: dogas@leading.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000421/ec6f5734/attachment.html From dlinder at uiuc.edu Fri Apr 21 22:05:04 2000 From: dlinder at uiuc.edu (Dan Linder) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: IBM 3725 In Central Illinois Message-ID: List, There is an IBM 3725 available in Champaign/Urbana Illinois at a local scrapper. It is large, blue, and runs on three phase (as far as I could tell). Please let me know if anyone is interested in saving it. No docs, no media, no nothing... Just a large heavy blue computer. I certainly have neither the space nor the juice to house this beast. I'm also quite interested in what it is. Thanks for your replies, and please email if you have an interest in the system. - Dan Linder / dlinder@uiuc.edu / upside@mcs.net - - Riot sounds start riots. / keep talking... - From dogas at leading.net Fri Apr 21 21:42:15 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: Interesting finds; 1801, National Semiconductor RM-665, Grid,HPs.. Message-ID: <000801bfac04$61adf3e0$ca646464@dogclient01> > Mike also got a Motorola >HDS-200 Hardware Developement system with the plug ins for a 6502 CPU. Does >anyone have any information about these? Close Joe, It's not a 6502, it is a 6805 packeged like an Atari 2600 cartridge that's labled" HDS-200 Program Cartridge M6805, R2, U2, R3, U3" ;) - Mike: dogas@leading.net From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 21 22:26:18 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: Somewhat OT: Then & Now. In-Reply-To: <20000422025310.37298.qmail@hotmail.com> from "David Vohs" at Apr 22, 2000 02:53:10 AM Message-ID: <200004220326.UAA20588@shell1.aracnet.com> > Back then we had: The Macintosh Portable. > Now we have: The iMac. ^^^^ I suspect you mean the *iBook* and not the iMac. Got to admit I wouldn't mind having an iBook w/Airport if it was about a Thousand less! Zane From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Apr 21 22:25:38 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: Things that make you sick! Message-ID: <20000421.222540.-4006199.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> That's the ill-fated 88000 chipset by Motorola. It was Moto's only entry into the then-new RISC processor market. The AViiON is one of a handfull of machines developed to use the 88000. The three chips collectively make up a CPU: the two 88200's are cache/mmu, and the 88100 is the actual CPU itself. The 88000 was way cool, on account of it was one of the earliest RISC CPU's that was designed specifically to operate in parallel. This processor family was doomed when Moto sold it's soul to IBM and Apple and produced the PowerPC (it did this, but only after Moto shot itself in the foot, yet again). Anyways, the AViiON ran DG-UX, (a unix subspecies), and were fairly cool in their day. They can be had *very* cheaply; I seriously doubt many will survive. . . While not yet 10 years old, I think it qualifies as 'classic' (well, they're cheap enough so I can afford to purchase them; that's good enough for me!!!) :^) Jeff On Fri, 21 Apr 2000 22:45:15 -0500 Joe writes: > Mike and I went to one place today and found the remains of a Data > General > Aiivion (sp?) in the scrap metal pile. We had gotten there too late > to > save it. :-( I did get the CPU module out of it. It has three large > ICs on > it. Two are XC88200RC25B s and the other is a MC88100RC25. Can > anyone tell > me what exactly these are? > > > Joe > ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From schoedel at kw.igs.net Fri Apr 21 22:57:14 2000 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: Things that make you sick! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000421224515.399721ce@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <3.0.1.16.20000421224515.399721ce@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On 2000/04/21 at 10:45pm -0500, Joe wrote: >It has three large ICs on it. Two are XC88200RC25B s and the other is a >MC88100RC25. Can anyone tell me what exactly these are? The 88000 was Motorola's late 1980s 32-bit RISC processor, intended as a general-purpose successor to the 68000 series. Not particularly successful, and fairly soon dropped in favour of the PowerPC. The 88100 is the CPU, and the 88200s are MMU & cache (most likely one for instructions and one for data). -- Kevin Schoedel schoedel@kw.igs.net From dogas at leading.net Fri Apr 21 22:35:51 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: Somewhat OT: Then & Now. Message-ID: <007801bfac0b$dd734500$ca646464@dogclient01> ...back then we had just enough ram to get the job done, today we have enough ram to run solitare instead of getting the job done... ;) From elvey at hal.com Fri Apr 21 19:52:50 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: Progress on NEC APC (fwd) Message-ID: <200004220052.RAA11030@civic.hal.com> >>>>> Forwarded message from Don Maslin On Fri, 21 Apr 2000, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Fri, 21 Apr 2000, Don Maslin wrote: > > > what the CP/M-86 would see on the MS-DOS format. > > It gives you a big fat error message. > > In THIS case, due to sector size differences. But not ALWAYS. I have > seen non-CP/M disks with E5 where a CP/M directory would have been. I don't recall running across that, but I'll be alert now. > MS-DOS will give a big FAT :-) error message when trying to read CP/M > (actually "Probable Non-DOS disk") because it is picky about what it > expects to see in the F.A.T. Agreed. > Due to reserved tracks, on 8" double density, CP/M's DIRectory will > fall AFTER the end of the MS-DOS directory, where the first file would > otherwise be likely to be. You're right that that would almost certainly > be content that would choke CP/M. But with very short files and large > clusters, and with sector interleave, it is entirely possible to have CP/M > looking at unused sectors. Possible, but... > Both MS-DOS and CP/M will accept and assume "empty" when encountering > a DIRectory (not the MS-DOS F.A.T.) sector of all E5. MOST MS-DOS formats > fill the empty directory sectors with 00, but not all. Some use E5, some > F6 with E5 every 32 bytes, ... What would CP/M-86 report for a directory Rather like a CP/M directory that had its files deleted :) > sector of all 00? An MS-DOS format with a large directory could easily > leave the END of the MS-DOS directory sectors where the first of the CP/M > directory sectors would be. Agreed. I'll have to try the 00 bit and see what does actually happen. I'll let you know. > I don't often see use of USER in CP/M disks. Sometimes, but not often. I > think that it is more likely that they gave Sellam blank formatted > diskettes. I wouldn't argue that. On the other hand, it would be prudent to check. If he would mail one or more of the disks to me, I could examine them and probably provide an answer. - don << End forwarded message From Innfogra at aol.com Sat Apr 22 00:08:04 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: Things that make you sick! Message-ID: In a message dated 4/21/2000 7:45:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time, rigdonj@intellistar.net writes: > Two are XC88200RC25B s and the other is a MC88100RC25. Can anyone tell > me what exactly these are? These three chips comprise the Mot. 88000 processor at 25 Mhz. Paxton From Innfogra at aol.com Sat Apr 22 00:14:49 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: Interesting finds; 1801, National Semiconductor RM-665, Grid,HPs.. Message-ID: <26.4a2dcf1.26328f49@aol.com> In a message dated 4/21/2000 7:40:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time, rigdonj@intellistar.net writes: > National Semiconductor RM-665 > computer. The NS computer uses MultiBus cards and has an Intel 80/20 CPU > card with a 8080 CPU. It also has Analog Devices card with several D-A and > A-D devices on it. I've never heard of a National Semiconductor computer > before. The RM-665 was an OEM Intel Multibus 1 box from the early 80s. It sounds like you have a process controller of some sort. The Intel 80/20 is an 8080 Single Board Computer. This is the type of system built into industrial systems. Paxton From doug at blinkenlights.com Sat Apr 22 00:12:37 2000 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: Interesting finds; 1801, National Semiconductor RM-665, Grid,HPs.. In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000421223800.265743dc@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Apr 2000, Joe wrote: > The NS computer uses MultiBus cards and has an Intel 80/20 CPU card > with a 8080 CPU. It also has Analog Devices card with several D-A and > A-D devices on it. I've never heard of a National Semiconductor > computer before. Does anyone know anything about them? NS was a second source for the 8080. I've got one of their SBC clones somewhere (I think it's an 80/10 clone). Cheers, Doug From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 22 00:48:17 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: Interesting finds; 1801, National Semiconductor RM-665, Grid,HPs.. References: <3.0.1.16.20000421223800.265743dc@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <002301bfac1e$5f1b8a60$0400c0a8@winbook> I doubt that Motorla made a development system for the 6502. MOS technology was stealing LOTS of their business, and they'd certainly not support a competitor's products. National Semiconductor built lots of 8080 stuff, including the processor once the market took off. I have several cardcages (4-slots) that bear the National logo. They are Multibus-1, of course. If I were you, Joe, I'd hang onto the iSBC 8020 boards. I've used them and their successor, the iSBC 8020-4 (4 MHz CPU) and its 8085 incarnation, the iSBC-8024 MANY times, for things that could use the on-board peripherals. The normal complement of memory ws only 2K, though I've never seen a board from this series that didn't have 4K in the form of 8 2114's. They're extremely useful and quite straightforward once you learn where everything is. You don't have to use them with other Multibus boards, but it's certainly possible. One of these days I'll put the ol' 8024 together with a RAM board and the Central Data FDC, and it will boot CP/M. I've got quite a number of Multibus-1 boards, of which more than half are 802x boards. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe To: Sent: Friday, April 21, 2000 9:38 PM Subject: Interesting finds; 1801, National Semiconductor RM-665, Grid,HPs.. > Hi All, > > Mike paid a visit from Jacksonville today and we had a llloonnggg day of > digging for computer relics. Mike found a Grid laptop and a NIB Grid MODEM. > HDS-200 Hardware Developement system with the plug ins for a 6502 CPU. Does > anyone have any information about these? > > Joe > From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 21 21:53:13 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: Intel i960 evaluation board Message-ID: <00c701bfac1d$3b105b60$7664c0d0@ajp166> >Perhaps you're thinking of the 8096. The i960 has no architectural or Thats the beastie. >The 8089 was not particularly intended for embedded applications; it was >supposed to be a channel controller, i.e., a smart DMA controller able I know it well. I have a few of them. Actually it does make a fair embeeded controller if your not doing much math. >The only thing 20-bit about the 8089 is the address, but at least it was >a flat 20-bit space unlike that of the 8086. And the alu was 20 bits wide too. The GA, GB and GC register beiseds holding address information also were usable as accumulators. Simple part to program save for the lack of tools. I tried it for a channel controller for s100. Parts overhead to use it was on the high side do the the bus state encoding. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 21 21:46:27 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:01 2005 Subject: Interesting finds; 1801, National Semiconductor RM-665, Grid,HPs.. Message-ID: <00c601bfac1d$3a560c10$7664c0d0@ajp166> >I found a 1801A CPU! This is the predecessor to the COSMAC 1802. I never Half cpu... The 1800/1801 were a pair that implemented alost an 1802. >computer. The NS computer uses MultiBus cards and has an Intel 80/20 CPU >card with a 8080 CPU. It also has Analog Devices card with several D-A and >A-D devices on it. I've never heard of a National Semiconductor computer >before. Does anyone know anything about them? Mike also got a Motorola National did the BLC80xx series if memory serves, decent intel compatable multibus. Slightly surprized to see a ISBC80/20 cpu as they nominally had National cards. I think I have the manual for the BLC80204 8080 card that was the national equivelent of the ISBC8020. Allison From technoid at cheta.net Sat Apr 22 02:47:31 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (Jeffrey S. Worley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: SIMM Remover tool Message-ID: <39015913.8E957786@cheta.net> My Sparcstation 330 has 24ea 30-pin simms onboard. Removing them was a problem for me when I was diagnosing bad ram. I found that a 7.65x54mm cartridge for my 100+ year old Argentine Mauser rifle was the perfect tool for working with this type of simm socket. I suspect any full-metal-jacket round with a "Spitzer"-type nose (pointy) will work such as 7.62x39 Warsaw Pact or 5.56 Nato will work just as well or better. The trick is to start with the 'lowest' simm - the one that is 'under' all the others. Insert the nose of the round into the hole on one side of the simm, press down to disengage the clip on the socket and lever against the simm 'below' the one you are removing. The last simm is more difficult because there is no simm 'beneath' it to lever against but the tool is still helpful. Especially if your video card is like mine, piggybacked onto the motherboard. I lever against it for the last simm. The copper jacket is soft and will scratch but does not appear to shed material which is good because copper is conductive.... These minor scratches will affect accuracy when the round is fired so don't use this 'tool' as ammunition in a competition! Yes. I drew a five-shot, one-hole group at 110yards with my Winchester 30-30 rifle over open-sites one day. Can hit a quarter at 300yd with a scope..... As with all explosives, due care is indicated..... Regards Technoid From sipke at wxs.nl Sat Apr 22 04:44:05 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: Interesting finds; 1801, National Semiconductor RM-665, Grid,HPs.. References: <3.0.1.16.20000421223800.265743dc@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <02cc01bfac3f$5023bde0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe To: > computer, a pair of HP 9121 disk drives and a National Semiconductor RM-665 > computer. The NS computer uses MultiBus cards and has an Intel 80/20 CPU > card with a 8080 CPU. It also has Analog Devices card with several D-A and > A-D devices on it. I've never heard of a National Semiconductor computer > before. Does anyone know anything about them? National Semiconductor was a 8080 secondsource outlet for quite a while. (~1975-1980) So it stand to reason that they also supplied development systems for it. I also recall them selling I/O and memory boards for the multibus Sipke From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Apr 22 04:13:39 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: Floppy storage boxes In-Reply-To: <002301bfac1e$5f1b8a60$0400c0a8@winbook> References: <3.0.1.16.20000421223800.265743dc@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: I found something I have been looking a long time for, floppy storage boxes. These are the corrugated units that fold into a drawer and box tube that the drawer slides into, and that can be stacked several high. I bought a case each of 5.25 inch and double drawer 3.25 inch, so if anybody else is looking for this type of storage, email me and I will share some of what I have. 5.25" CD/Diskette Storage Drawer Stores 32 CDs or 150 Diskettes Dimensions: 6*"W x 6*"H x 14*"D 3.5" Diskette Storage Drawer Stores up to 175 Diskettes Dimensions: 8*"W x 4*"H x 14*"D From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Apr 22 07:54:03 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: Interesting finds; 1801, National Semiconductor RM-665, Grid,HPs.. In-Reply-To: <000801bfac04$61adf3e0$ca646464@dogclient01> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000422075403.256f2470@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 10:42 PM 4/21/00 -0400, you wrote: >> Mike also got a Motorola >>HDS-200 Hardware Developement system with the plug ins for a 6502 CPU. Does >>anyone have any information about these? > > >Close Joe, It's not a 6502, it is a 6805 packeged like an Atari 2600 >cartridge that's labled" HDS-200 Program Cartridge M6805, R2, U2, R3, U3" Well like I said, it was a Looonnnggg day! Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Apr 22 08:07:46 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: Interesting finds; 1801, National Semiconductor RM-665, Grid,HPs.. In-Reply-To: <00c601bfac1d$3a560c10$7664c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000422080746.34d71f9e@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 10:46 PM 4/21/00 -0400, you wrote: >>I found a 1801A CPU! This is the predecessor to the COSMAC 1802. I never > > >Half cpu... The 1800/1801 were a pair that implemented alost an 1802. I was wondering if anyone would catch that. You're right, the 1801 is only half of the processor. Do you know what the 1800 looked like? Is it also the same size as the 1801? Now I'll have to look for the 1800 half. Joe > >>computer. The NS computer uses MultiBus cards and has an Intel 80/20 CPU >>card with a 8080 CPU. It also has Analog Devices card with several D-A and >>A-D devices on it. I've never heard of a National Semiconductor computer >>before. Does anyone know anything about them? Mike also got a Motorola > > >National did the BLC80xx series if memory serves, decent intel compatable >multibus. Slightly surprized to see a ISBC80/20 cpu as they nominally had >National cards. I think I have the manual for the BLC80204 8080 card that >was the national equivelent of the ISBC8020. > >Allison > > > > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Apr 22 07:57:43 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: Interesting finds; 1801, National Semiconductor RM-665, Grid,HPs.. In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000421223800.265743dc@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000422075743.256fcad8@mailhost.intellistar.net> Doug, Are you back on the list now? The card in this one in an Intel card but I'll take a closer look and see who made the CPU. Joe At 01:12 AM 4/22/00 -0400, you wrote: >On Fri, 21 Apr 2000, Joe wrote: > >> The NS computer uses MultiBus cards and has an Intel 80/20 CPU card >> with a 8080 CPU. It also has Analog Devices card with several D-A and >> A-D devices on it. I've never heard of a National Semiconductor >> computer before. Does anyone know anything about them? > >NS was a second source for the 8080. I've got one of their SBC clones >somewhere (I think it's an 80/10 clone). > >Cheers, >Doug > > From rmeenaks at olf.com Sat Apr 22 07:23:16 2000 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: Graphics card Message-ID: <003001bfac55$89bb14c0$0a02f2c7@neptune> Hi, I picked up a graphics card when I was down in Germany last week. It contains several SMB-type connectors labeled as follows: EX - What is this? VS - Vertical Sync CS - Composite (or Horizontal) Sync R - Red G - Green B - Blue What is EX?? I was planning on using the BNC-to-VGA connector which has 5 BNC connectors for VS, CS, R, G, and B but I dont know what the EX is used for... Ram From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 22 09:56:17 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: 6805 (was: Interesting finds; 1801, National Semiconductor RM-665, Grid,HPs..) References: <3.0.1.16.20000422075403.256f2470@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <002f01bfac6a$e9ce8580$0400c0a8@winbook> That 6805 series still lives in the form of the 'HC05 series from Motorola. It was the first real "high Integration" processor from Motorola, soon followed by the 6804, which was much cheaper. The 6801 was a higher level of integration than the Intel 8048 and was more flexible than the Intel 805x series which came out later. What I found really impressive about this Motorola line was that the physical size of the chip itself was so large. Motorola held introductory seminars about their newly introduced 68000 series and the 6805. I was all excited about the 68K at the time and didn't pay much attention to the 6805 series. I was duly impressed when I saw the product brocheure, which had an unpackaged chip on it. It was as large as my little fingernail! The 68000, by comparison, was small. I've built at most half a dozen 68K projects in the ensuing time, and by 1985 had turned out over two dozen applications for the 6805 series, particularly the P3 and U3. It's still quite a respectable family of devices, though its CMOS scions have done better than it did, probably for packaging reasons. The 6805 was the first processor that I treated strictly as a logic component, often using more than one with the same function just because it was easy to partition the tasks that way. It's in its twilight years now, though, as MOT has introduced the latest family of replacements for it, all cheaper because they use a single chip with differing bonding options, which holds the price down, and because they fit into small packages due to their die size. There's a lot to learn from these old microcontrollers and having a development system for them will be really handy if you get it to work. They've served in model railroads and home security systems. You find 'em everywhere. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe To: Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2000 6:54 AM Subject: Re: Interesting finds; 1801, National Semiconductor RM-665, Grid,HPs.. > At 10:42 PM 4/21/00 -0400, you wrote: > >> Mike also got a Motorola > >>HDS-200 Hardware Developement system with the plug ins for a 6502 CPU. Does > >>anyone have any information about these? > > > > > >Close Joe, It's not a 6502, it is a 6805 packeged like an Atari 2600 > >cartridge that's labled" HDS-200 Program Cartridge M6805, R2, U2, R3, U3" > > > Well like I said, it was a Looonnnggg day! > > Joe > From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Sat Apr 22 10:51:19 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: Intel i960 evaluation board References: <008601bfabeb$0ed975e0$7664c0d0@ajp166> <20000422005648.17511.qmail@brouhaha.com> <001001bfabf7$4b7083c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <00b701bfac76$720df920$769693c3@proteus> Hi Dick, > That's odd ... I remember the i960 being touted as the cat's meow >for laser printers and other highly demanding and high-speed embedded >applications.... Yep, it was originally intended as a processor for high-end workstations etc. However, certainly by 1992 they'd repositioned it in the embedded controller arena - it appears in the 1992 edition of their "embedded controller & microprocessor" handbooks. >....I was never interested enough to investigate without a contract, however, >since I am not an Intel enthusiast.... I actually worked with the thing for a couple of months in '92 (an embedded application which was canned) and it wasn't a bad processor to work with at all....which is saying something since I've either disliked or out and out DESPISED every processor they've come up with since the 8080.... But then again, Intel did lose the plot when the 8080 team buggered off to form Zilog. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sat Apr 22 11:21:28 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: IBM 3725 In Central Illinois Message-ID: <20000422162128.13668.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dan Linder wrote: > List, > > There is an IBM 3725 available... Just a large heavy blue computer. > I'm also quite interested in what it is. It is big, it is heavy, it is blue, but it isn't a computer. It's a PU (Physical Unit) Type 4 as seen from an SNA network standpoint, and is more commonly known as an FEP (Front End Processor) - Think of it as the I/O interface for a mainframe. This is the thing that a 3274 would talk to - that box we were discussing here a few days ago. The CPU is a PU Type 5, the 37x5 is the PU Type 4, the 3274 is a PU Type 2 and they all coexist happily in their own roles on an SNA network. Each PU Type can initiate or resond to certain types of network traffic; it's very hierarchical and structured. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 22 12:20:38 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: OT: Old Pentium Motherboard data References: <008601bfabeb$0ed975e0$7664c0d0@ajp166> <20000422005648.17511.qmail@brouhaha.com> <001001bfabf7$4b7083c0$0400c0a8@winbook> <00b701bfac76$720df920$769693c3@proteus> Message-ID: <000f01bfac7f$181c5fc0$0400c0a8@winbook> Can anyone suggest a good URL for finding data on OLD Pentium Motherboard? I've got this old FIC PA2002 mobo, the user guide for which seems to be hiding. I've used this for so long in one place, I've no recollection of what's what. If anyone has the user guide or knows where I can find it, please share this info with me. thanx Dick From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 22 12:22:58 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: Intel i960 evaluation board References: <008601bfabeb$0ed975e0$7664c0d0@ajp166> <20000422005648.17511.qmail@brouhaha.com> <001001bfabf7$4b7083c0$0400c0a8@winbook> <00b701bfac76$720df920$769693c3@proteus> Message-ID: <001301bfac7f$69f5be40$0400c0a8@winbook> Maybe they were afraid it would collide in the marketplace with their Pentium. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Pachla To: Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2000 9:51 AM Subject: Re: Intel i960 evaluation board > Hi Dick, > > > That's odd ... I remember the i960 being touted as the cat's meow > >for laser printers and other highly demanding and high-speed embedded > >applications.... > > Yep, it was originally intended as a processor for high-end workstations > etc. > > However, certainly by 1992 they'd repositioned it in the embedded controller > arena - it appears in the 1992 edition of their "embedded controller & > microprocessor" handbooks. > From mark_k at totalise.co.uk Sat Apr 22 13:18:08 2000 From: mark_k at totalise.co.uk (Mark Knibbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: Intel i960 evaluation board Message-ID: <392DAB98@mail.totalise.co.uk> On Fri, 21 Apr 2000 Kevin Schoedel wrote: >Since some i960s are still in production, you can most likely get >information and software from Intel. Indeed you can. You can order the "i960 Microprocessor Electronic Library" CD-ROM from Intel's literature centre. The order number is 272743-002. Or look on the Intel web site. -- Mark From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Apr 22 11:35:07 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: Interesting finds; 1801, National Semiconductor RM-665, Grid,HPs.. Message-ID: <011401bfac81$d53963d0$7664c0d0@ajp166> > I was wondering if anyone would catch that. You're right, the 1801 is >only half of the processor. Do you know what the 1800 looked like? Is it >also the same size as the 1801? Now I'll have to look for the 1800 half. Also the same size and likely the same appearance. Allison From pbboy at mindspring.com Sat Apr 22 13:38:34 2000 From: pbboy at mindspring.com (Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: OT: Old Pentium Motherboard data References: <008601bfabeb$0ed975e0$7664c0d0@ajp166> <20000422005648.17511.qmail@brouhaha.com> <001001bfabf7$4b7083c0$0400c0a8@winbook> <00b701bfac76$720df920$769693c3@proteus> <000f01bfac7f$181c5fc0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <3901F1AA.FE4EEE30@mindspring.com> Go to FIC's website, they have the manuals and such there. www.fica.com Richard Erlacher wrote: > Can anyone suggest a good URL for finding data on OLD Pentium Motherboard? > I've got this old FIC PA2002 mobo, the user guide for which seems to be > hiding. I've used this for so long in one place, I've no recollection of > what's what. > > If anyone has the user guide or knows where I can find it, please share this > info with me. > > thanx > > Dick From dastar at siconic.com Sat Apr 22 13:45:37 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: Link update please Message-ID: <200004221744.KAA16749@siconic.com> I need to update my link for the old ClassicCmp archive that Kevan Heydon had on his site. I remember there being some talk about moving this but I guess I failed to update my link. If someone could e-mail it to me at sellam@vintage.org I'd appreciate it very much. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sat Apr 22 13:52:35 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: OT: Old Pentium Motherboard data In-Reply-To: <000f01bfac7f$181c5fc0$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Apr 22, 2000 11:20:38 AM Message-ID: <200004221852.MAA21937@calico.litterbox.com> Try this URL. http://www.mitacusa.com/tech_sup/pa2002.html > > Can anyone suggest a good URL for finding data on OLD Pentium Motherboard? > I've got this old FIC PA2002 mobo, the user guide for which seems to be > hiding. I've used this for so long in one place, I've no recollection of > what's what. > > If anyone has the user guide or knows where I can find it, please share this > info with me. > > thanx > > Dick > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From dastar at siconic.com Sat Apr 22 14:04:48 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: Collectors from Holland & India please contact me... Message-ID: <200004221803.LAA16800@siconic.com> Someone writing an article for Playboy magazine wants to interview someone from Holland and India (specifically mentioned cities: Amsterdam and Bangalore) about their local computer culture. Please e- mail me directly if you perhaps want to be interviewed. Also, she would like information about the different locations around the world trying to model their local high tech economy around the Silicon Valley, and calling themselves "Silicon ", ie. Silicon Corridor, Silicon Gulch, etc. If your local high tech community is referred to as the "Silicon " and you can talk a bit about it then please contact me and I'll pass your info along to her. Thanks! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sat Apr 22 14:09:25 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: OT: Old Pentium Motherboard data In-Reply-To: <3901F1AA.FE4EEE30@mindspring.com> from "Robert" at Apr 22, 2000 02:38:34 PM Message-ID: <200004221909.NAA22105@calico.litterbox.com> What he says. The URL I gave appears to be from mitac, and might not be for the same mb at all. *grumble* I wish MB manufacturers could agree not to re-use each other's model numbers. > > Go to FIC's website, they have the manuals and such there. www.fica.com > > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Can anyone suggest a good URL for finding data on OLD Pentium Motherboard? > > I've got this old FIC PA2002 mobo, the user guide for which seems to be > > hiding. I've used this for so long in one place, I've no recollection of > > what's what. > > > > If anyone has the user guide or knows where I can find it, please share this > > info with me. > > > > thanx > > > > Dick > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 22 15:24:20 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: Somewhat OT: Then & Now. In-Reply-To: <20000422025310.37298.qmail@hotmail.com> from "David Vohs" at Apr 22, 0 02:53:10 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1090 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000422/5885ebcf/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 22 15:26:28 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: Graphics card In-Reply-To: <003001bfac55$89bb14c0$0a02f2c7@neptune> from "Ram Meenakshisundaram" at Apr 22, 0 08:23:16 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 266 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000422/c3633310/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 22 15:18:35 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: Intel i960 evaluation board In-Reply-To: <008601bfabeb$0ed975e0$7664c0d0@ajp166> from "allisonp" at Apr 21, 0 07:10:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 405 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000422/0b9612a3/attachment.ksh From Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu Sat Apr 22 16:45:53 2000 From: Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu (Marion Bates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: ID this board? Message-ID: <30098232@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 651 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000422/ce4ef88c/attachment.bin From sipke at wxs.nl Sat Apr 22 17:35:43 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: Old Pentium Motherboard data References: <008601bfabeb$0ed975e0$7664c0d0@ajp166> <20000422005648.17511.qmail@brouhaha.com> <001001bfabf7$4b7083c0$0400c0a8@winbook> <00b701bfac76$720df920$769693c3@proteus> <000f01bfac7f$181c5fc0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <034601bfacab$1b82b840$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Find the BIOS ID-code for this motherboard (when you boot it is displayed somewhere on the bootscreen) and go to this site: http://www.ping.be/bios/index.html?http://www.ping.be/bios/main.html Here you may find the manufactorer and a current link to manuals and bios updates. With Award & AMI biosses you have a good chance of finding something usefull. Phoenix sucks in this regard. Sipke ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Erlacher To: Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2000 7:20 PM Subject: OT: Old Pentium Motherboard data > Can anyone suggest a good URL for finding data on OLD Pentium Motherboard? > I've got this old FIC PA2002 mobo, the user guide for which seems to be > hiding. I've used this for so long in one place, I've no recollection of > what's what. > > If anyone has the user guide or knows where I can find it, please share this > info with me. > > thanx > > Dick > From donm at cts.com Sat Apr 22 16:47:56 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: Progress on NEC APC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Apr 2000, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Fri, 21 Apr 2000, Don Maslin wrote: > > > what the CP/M-86 would see on the MS-DOS format. > > It gives you a big fat error message. > > In THIS case, due to sector size differences. But not ALWAYS. I have > seen non-CP/M disks with E5 where a CP/M directory would have been. > > MS-DOS will give a big FAT :-) error message when trying to read CP/M > (actually "Probable Non-DOS disk") because it is picky about what it > expects to see in the F.A.T. > > Due to reserved tracks, on 8" double density, CP/M's DIRectory will > fall AFTER the end of the MS-DOS directory, where the first file would > otherwise be likely to be. You're right that that would almost certainly > be content that would choke CP/M. But with very short files and large > clusters, and with sector interleave, it is entirely possible to have CP/M > looking at unused sectors. > > Both MS-DOS and CP/M will accept and assume "empty" when encountering > a DIRectory (not the MS-DOS F.A.T.) sector of all E5. MOST MS-DOS formats > fill the empty directory sectors with 00, but not all. Some use E5, some > F6 with E5 every 32 bytes, ... What would CP/M-86 report for a directory > sector of all 00? An MS-DOS format with a large directory could easily > leave the END of the MS-DOS directory sectors where the first of the CP/M > directory sectors would be. CP/M-80 displays the full directory except that the "00"s are displayed as ":"s. I zeroed out the first 512 byte sector of a CP/M-80 directory and it displayed 16 colons followed by the actual file names in the remaining sectors. I would assume that CP/M-86 would do the same, and it does. - don > I don't often see use of USER in CP/M disks. Sometimes, but not often. I > think that it is more likely that they gave Sellam blank formatted > diskettes. > > -- > Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com > XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com > 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 > Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 > > From Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu Sat Apr 22 17:08:56 2000 From: Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu (Marion Bates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: Docs for IBM LaserPrinter Message-ID: <30098790@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Hi, I picked up what looks like a complete set of manuals for the IBM LaserWriter from October 1990. Four books: Software Applications/Driver Information User's Guide Technical Reference Supplies/Options Catalog Let me know if you're interested in any/all of them for cost of postage. -- MB From Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu Sat Apr 22 17:17:26 2000 From: Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu (Marion Bates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: want Mac parts? Message-ID: <30099077@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 848 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000422/e913369d/attachment.bin From Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu Sat Apr 22 17:28:46 2000 From: Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu (Marion Bates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: FS: Mac logic/analog boards Message-ID: <30099427@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 496 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000422/8295a763/attachment.bin From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 22 18:09:55 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: Old Pentium Motherboard data References: <008601bfabeb$0ed975e0$7664c0d0@ajp166> <20000422005648.17511.qmail@brouhaha.com> <001001bfabf7$4b7083c0$0400c0a8@winbook> <00b701bfac76$720df920$769693c3@proteus> <000f01bfac7f$181c5fc0$0400c0a8@winbook> <034601bfacab$1b82b840$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <002f01bfacaf$df9680a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Thanks to everybody for their prompt replies. I've got the data I need, and a manual, which Will Jennings offered me will take care of the rest of the info I'll need henceforth. Naturally my manual will turn up just as soon as I receive the replacement, but so it goes. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Sipke de Wal To: Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2000 4:35 PM Subject: Re: Old Pentium Motherboard data > Find the BIOS ID-code for this motherboard (when you boot it > is displayed somewhere on the bootscreen) and go to this site: > > http://www.ping.be/bios/index.html?http://www.ping.be/bios/main.html > > Here you may find the manufactorer and a current link to manuals > and bios updates. > > With Award & AMI biosses you have a good chance of finding > something usefull. Phoenix sucks in this regard. > > Sipke > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Richard Erlacher > To: > Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2000 7:20 PM > Subject: OT: Old Pentium Motherboard data > > > > Can anyone suggest a good URL for finding data on OLD Pentium Motherboard? > > I've got this old FIC PA2002 mobo, the user guide for which seems to be > > hiding. I've used this for so long in one place, I've no recollection of > > what's what. > > > > If anyone has the user guide or knows where I can find it, please share this > > info with me. > > > > thanx > > > > Dick > > > From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Apr 22 18:10:58 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: Interesting finds; 1801, National Semiconductor RM-665, Grid,HPs.. In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000421223800.265743dc@mailhost.intellistar.net> (message from Joe on Fri, 21 Apr 2000 22:38:00 -0500) References: <3.0.1.16.20000421223800.265743dc@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <20000422231058.22882.qmail@brouhaha.com> Joe wrote: > I found a 1801A CPU! This is the predecessor to the COSMAC 1802. I never Cool, could you put a photo on your web site? A few years ago in a surplus store I found the RCA CMOS databook that contained (sketchy) specs for the 1801. However, the idiots were not willing to accept an offer of $5 each for various data books I wanted, apparently believing them to be more valuable. (I would have understood if they had been trying to keep a reference library, but they claimed to be trying to sell them.) The databook indicated that the 1801 is a two-chip set, which consists of the CDP1801C and CDP1801R, the former containing the control circuitry and that latter containing the registers. Apparently RCA designed it as a production prototype, and did not intend it for commercial use, instead recommending that customers design in the 1802 which was due out soon thereafter. From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Apr 22 18:13:53 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: Things that make you sick! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000421224515.399721ce@mailhost.intellistar.net> (message from Joe on Fri, 21 Apr 2000 22:45:15 -0500) References: <3.0.1.16.20000421224515.399721ce@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <20000422231353.22896.qmail@brouhaha.com> Joe wrote: > I did get the CPU module out of it. It has three large ICs on > it. Two are XC88200RC25B s and the other is a MC88100RC25. Can anyone tell > me what exactly these are? IIRC, the 88100 is the first generation 88K RISC CPU, and the 88200 is a "CMMU" (cache & MMU). A normal 88K system used two CMMUs, one for instructions and one for data (i.e., modified Harvard architecture), but in principle more could be used. From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Sat Apr 22 18:26:09 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: Docs for IBM LaserPrinter In-Reply-To: <30098790@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU>; from Marion Bates on Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 06:08:56PM -0400 References: <30098790@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Message-ID: <20000422162609.O18847@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 06:08:56PM -0400, Marion Bates wrote: > I picked up what looks like a complete set of manuals for the IBM LaserWriter from October 1990. Four books: LaserWriter would be Apple, not IBM... but does the manual say which IBM model number it's for? I could use manuals for my 3812 I suppose, if that's what it happens to be. Alternatively, if anybody's a 3812 fan, I've got one that I could just as well get rid of... > Software Applications/Driver Information > User's Guide > Technical Reference > Supplies/Options Catalog -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu Sat Apr 22 19:00:00 2000 From: Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu (Marion Bates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: Docs for IBM LaserPrinter Message-ID: <30101718@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> --- "Shawn T. Rutledge" wrote: LaserWriter would be Apple, not IBM --- end of quote --- Oops. I meant to write "LaserPrinter" -- that's actually what it says. -- MB From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Apr 22 19:16:45 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: want Mac parts? References: <30099077@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Message-ID: <002001bfacb9$369317c0$ea731fd1@default> Want part of the country are you in I could use a lot of parts for my collection of Mac's ? ----- Original Message ----- From: Marion Bates To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2000 5:17 PM Subject: want Mac parts? Two items for repairing old Macs (128, 512, Plus, maybe SE too?) One is a yoke assembly, the other is the cable that connects to the end of the CRT and goes to the analog board or motherboard, I can't remember which. Neither has any charred plugs or anything like that. As far as I know they work fine -- I pulled them off a broken-necked CRT. Yours for shipping cost, let me know. I may also be able to find one or two of those big old capacitors that always flake out, and toss them in too, if you want. Also, if you're looking for specific service parts for old macs, email me off-list with what you need -- I may be able to find what you're looking for from this junk dealer for free or very cheap. He has an assortment of parts in a pile, most still in their original boxes from Apple (he bought the heap from a repair center). -- MB -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000422/4af12264/attachment.html From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Apr 22 19:20:04 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: Docs for IBM LaserPrinter References: <30098790@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Message-ID: <003801bfacb9$ad1624a0$ea731fd1@default> If no one wants them I will take them all, my zip is 55110 John ----- Original Message ----- From: Marion Bates To: Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2000 5:08 PM Subject: Docs for IBM LaserPrinter > Hi, > > I picked up what looks like a complete set of manuals for the IBM LaserWriter from October 1990. Four books: > Software Applications/Driver Information > User's Guide > Technical Reference > Supplies/Options Catalog > > Let me know if you're interested in any/all of them for cost of postage. > > -- MB > From Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu Sat Apr 22 19:46:10 2000 From: Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu (Marion Bates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: want Mac parts? Message-ID: <30102369@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 248 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000422/4b67eec9/attachment.bin From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Apr 22 20:00:15 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: Interesting finds; 1801, National Semiconductor RM-665, Grid,HPs.. Message-ID: <018301bfacc1$9a7f68d0$7664c0d0@ajp166> >A few years ago in a surplus store I found the RCA CMOS databook that >contained (sketchy) specs for the 1801. However, the idiots were not I have basic specs fot the pair, deeply burried though. >The databook indicated that the 1801 is a two-chip set, which consists of >the CDP1801C and CDP1801R, the former containing the control circuitry and >that latter containing the registers. Apparently RCA designed it as a >production prototype, and did not intend it for commercial use, instead >recommending that customers design in the 1802 which was due out soon >thereafter. Not quite true. the pair were used by special customers for quite a while as they were by basic construction rad hard. There were a few minor instruction differences as well, the 1801 had fewer than the 02. Allison From cem14 at cornell.edu Sat Apr 22 21:59:08 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: Collectors from Holland & India please contact me... In-Reply-To: <200004221803.LAA16800@siconic.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000422225908.006b6cd0@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 12:04 PM 4/22/00 -0700, you wrote: >Someone writing an article for Playboy magazine wants to interview -snip- >Also, she would like information about the different locations around the >world trying to model their local high tech economy around the Silicon >Valley, and calling themselves "Silicon ", ie. Silicon >Corridor, Silicon Gulch, etc. I can see the association; I bet that they feel that it is appropriate for them to take on that topic since they are a "silicone magazine" :-) . Sorry, I could not resist... From dastar at siconic.com Sat Apr 22 22:47:09 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: Looking for Allison Parent Message-ID: <200004230246.TAA17236@siconic.com> Is Allison Parent still subscribed here? If so, could you please e-mail me with your current e-mail address? If not, could someone please let me know how I can contact her? THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From dogas at leading.net Sat Apr 22 22:57:15 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: Interesting finds; 1801, National Semiconductor RM-665, Grid,HPs.. Message-ID: <001001bfacd8$062a1d80$ca646464@dogclient01> Hi all, I hope everyone is having a great weekend. Another item scored along with the rest of the subject's "interesting finds" was an Applied Microsystems thingy (an ES0130 (???)) It's a multibus gizmo in a small chasis missing the front plate. On the back , there are two db25 ports for Terminal and Computer, and a BNC for a Trigger. There is sticker on top listing two options installed: 1) AMC/ES-68000/8 and, 2) AN/403158. Another sticker on top says 128k. There are five cards installed on the back plane accessable from the front of the unit. They are: 1. ES Controller (with a 6809 on board) 2. ES Controller Memory 3. Trace and Break 4. ES Ram Overlay ver. 2 5. 68010 08/00 Emulator Anybody familiar with it? I also got two Dec boards: M7164 (it has 4 AMD2901 bit slicers on it) and a M7165. I'd happily trade both of these for a M7260 that I could dearly use. And last but not least found is an boxed A MAX, the Macintosh Emulator for the Amiga with the Apple ROMS but missing disks. Does anyone have this software? Thanks and beware the bunnies... - Mike: dogas@leading.net From dogas at leading.net Sat Apr 22 23:09:16 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: VaxStation 3100 revisited Message-ID: <002001bfacd9$b309ae20$ca646464@dogclient01> Well... Alot of intervening miles later, one MMJ cable later, one doubly terminated BNC T later, my VaxStation 3100's a little happier. Still not booting though. SHOW DEV shows ESA0 (default boot) and the floppy (I forget the dau) and DKA300 which it will not boot from. I take it these were booted from somewhere else on the network. How can I get VMS on the DKA300 or at least see what's already there? Help! Thanks - Mike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000423/d8973f86/attachment.html From dogas at leading.net Sat Apr 22 23:20:22 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: Another VaxStation 3100 question Message-ID: <002e01bfacdb$4068f9a0$ca646464@dogclient01> Another one of my VaxStation 3100's is a KA42 ver 1.3. It has LOGIN and (SET) PSWD commands in the DCL whereas my KA42 ver 1.2's do not. I don't know the password for the 1.3 box. Is there a way to reset it or find out what it is? Thanks again. - Mike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000423/7f7b6f74/attachment.html From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Apr 22 23:01:44 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: Looking for Allison Parent Message-ID: <01d601bfacd9$16dfce30$7664c0d0@ajp166> From: Sellam Ismail To: Classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, April 22, 2000 11:56 PM Subject: Looking for Allison Parent Is Allison Parent still subscribed here? If so, could you please e-mail me with your current e-mail address? If not, could someone please let me know how I can contact her? Yes??? It's still allisonp@world.std.com Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Apr 22 23:00:43 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: VaxStation 3100 revisited Message-ID: <01d501bfacd9$161181b0$7664c0d0@ajp166> Well... Alot of intervening miles later, one MMJ cable later, one doubly terminated BNC T later, my VaxStation 3100's a little happier. Still not booting though. SHOW DEV shows ESA0 (default boot) and the floppy (I forget the dau) and DKA300 which it will not boot from. I take it these were booted from somewhere else on the network. How can I get VMS on the DKA300 or at least see what's already there? Help! Thanks - Mike Well if it will nto boot from DAK300 (b DKA300 should work) then there is no OS and it was stripped. To get VMS on it you need the hobby CD (montagar) and a SCSI CDrom that can do small block size. Allison From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Apr 23 00:41:44 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: VaxStation 3100 revisited In-Reply-To: <01d501bfacd9$161181b0$7664c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: >> Well... Alot of intervening miles later, one MMJ cable later, one doubly >>terminated BNC T later, my VaxStation 3100's a little happier. Still not >>booting though. SHOW DEV shows ESA0 (default boot) and the floppy (I forget >>the dau) and DKA300 which it will not boot from. I take it these were >>booted from somewhere else on the network. How can I get VMS on the DKA300 >>or at least see what's already there? Help! > > Thanks > - Mike > > Well if it will nto boot from DAK300 (b DKA300 should work) then there >is no OS and it was stripped. > > To get VMS on it you need the hobby CD (montagar) and a SCSI CDrom that >can do small block size. > > Allison Well, since it the default boot is set to ESA0 it was most likely set up for a network boot off of a cluster disk. That means you've most likely got a RZ23 for the Hard Disk, which was used for the pagefile and swapfile. While it's possible to fit OpenVMS on a 100Mb drive, you'll probably want to find a larger drive. I've found a RZ25 is comfortable on a 3100 for a little light compiling. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Apr 23 01:34:14 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:02 2005 Subject: VAXstation 4000VLC Message-ID: On the topic of VAXstations, does anyone one the list have experience with hacking VLC's and or LCD's? I'm wondering how feasable it would be to hook an LCD display up to a VLC, and if it would be possible with off the shelf hardware. The other alternative I'm thinking of would be to pickup a cheap laptop, load Linux/X-Windows on it, and use it as an intelligent X-Terminal. At this point, you're probably asking, what on Earth am I trying to do. Well, I've decided I want a VAX "Laptop", and while I really doubt I can have it battery powered I want to see what I can do starting with a VLC as the base. I figure as long as I can get the final product about the size of an old Toshiba 5200 I'm on the right track. Of course I'm also thinking that if I can find the time to do this and do it right I'll have to build my own case for all the guts of the pieces. If nothing else a VLC and a Laptop used as a terminal should make a nice small easily portable VAX. I figure I'll initially try this out with my Mac PowerBook 540c since it's got built in ethernet and I can run eXodus on it for DECwindows support. However, as the 540c is only 640x480 I figure it's only good for a couple Mac telnet windows or a DECterm via X. Anyone have any ideas? I hope to start in on this next weekend, but it will depend on how soon the VLC I just bought for this takes to get here. As for the why, well, why not :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From Anthony.Eros at compaq.com Sun Apr 23 09:10:35 2000 From: Anthony.Eros at compaq.com (Eros, Anthony) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: VAXstation 4000VLC Message-ID: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F07524CD6@ALFEXC5> Hey, that sounds like a really neat idea! I recently picked up 5 VLC units and would love to do something similar. Would you mind if I tried to piggy-back off your efforts? -- Tony > ---------- > From: Zane H. Healy[SMTP:healyzh@aracnet.com] > Reply To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2000 2:34 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: VAXstation 4000VLC > > On the topic of VAXstations, does anyone one the list have experience with > hacking VLC's and or LCD's? I'm wondering how feasable it would be to > hook > an LCD display up to a VLC, and if it would be possible with off the shelf > hardware. > > The other alternative I'm thinking of would be to pickup a cheap laptop, > load Linux/X-Windows on it, and use it as an intelligent X-Terminal. > > At this point, you're probably asking, what on Earth am I trying to do. > Well, I've decided I want a VAX "Laptop", and while I really doubt I can > have it battery powered I want to see what I can do starting with a VLC as > the base. I figure as long as I can get the final product about the size > of an old Toshiba 5200 I'm on the right track. Of course I'm also > thinking > that if I can find the time to do this and do it right I'll have to build > my own case for all the guts of the pieces. > > If nothing else a VLC and a Laptop used as a terminal should make a nice > small easily portable VAX. I figure I'll initially try this out with my > Mac PowerBook 540c since it's got built in ethernet and I can run eXodus > on > it for DECwindows support. However, as the 540c is only 640x480 I figure > it's only good for a couple Mac telnet windows or a DECterm via X. > > Anyone have any ideas? I hope to start in on this next weekend, but it > will depend on how soon the VLC I just bought for this takes to get here. > > As for the why, well, why not :^) > > Zane > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Apr 23 11:02:54 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: VAXstation 4000VLC In-Reply-To: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F07524CD6@ALFEXC5> Message-ID: >Hey, that sounds like a really neat idea! I recently picked up 5 VLC units >and would love to do something similar. Would you mind if I tried to >piggy-back off your efforts? > >-- Tony Not at all, got any idea's on a front-end? I'm actually leaning towards a IBM Thinkpad for the final results. The problem is 640x480 laptops are affordable, 800x600 laptops seem to semi-affordable, while the 1024x768's that I'd prefer look to still be up there a ways. One of my requirements is that it be able to take a PS/2 Keyboard and mouse, as I want to be able to plug in something like a LK450 keyboard, and a 3 button mouse. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 22 17:00:07 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: ID this board? In-Reply-To: <30098232@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> from "Marion Bates" at Apr 22, 0 05:45:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1185 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000422/f8f908e4/attachment.ksh From technoid at cheta.net Sun Apr 23 12:25:25 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (Jeffrey S. Worley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: Netscape on Solaris 2.4 Message-ID: <39033205.6BB71F3F@cheta.net> I have Solaris 2.4 (or Sunos 5.4 or whatever they are calling it this week) on my Sparcstation 330. The architecture is SUN4 as opposed to Sun4m or Sun4u etc.... The openboot prom is the old style so no 'OK' message, just a wedge (>). I have installed Netscape and get the following message when I execute it. # ./netscape xlib: connection to ":0.0" refused by server xlib: Client is not authorized to connect to Server Error: Can't open display: :0.0 Other programs such as ADMINTOOL run fine. I can ping and have name services over my lan via a default router (192.168.0.3) and ftp'd Netscape onto the machine from ftp.netscape.com so I know things are working. The installation gave me a completion messages without snags. What more do I need to do? Thanks all Technoid From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Apr 23 13:03:09 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: Netscape on Solaris 2.4 In-Reply-To: <39033205.6BB71F3F@cheta.net> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000423110151.03071100@208.226.86.10> You don't have DISPLAY set and it is choking. Depending on shell set the environment variable to DISPLAY to localhost:0 or an equivalent, make sure that xhost knows about localhost and authorizes it to open the display and then start netscape. --Chuck At 01:25 PM 4/23/00 -0400, you wrote: >xlib: connection to ":0.0" refused by server >xlib: Client is not authorized to connect to Server >Error: Can't open display: :0.0 From Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu Sun Apr 23 15:25:15 2000 From: Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu (Marion Bates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: Manuals! Want 'em? Message-ID: <30115882@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> After much digging and sneezing, I've gathered some manuals to unload...mostly Mac-related but also some IBM. Here are a few I wrote down: Apple stuff: - shrinkwrapped IIsi and IIci owner's manuals (entire unopened sets of manuals for IIci -- including sys 7 reference -- email me if you want a list of what books are included) - shrinkwrapped Guide to System 7 - shrinkwrapped Guide to Macintosh Common LISP (I don't know if there are disks in there too, if you're interested let me know and I'll check) - big ol' box of A/UX manuals (didn't look in the box, so it may not be complete, but it probably is) - various other system manuals, not shrinkwrapped - assorted non-shrinkwrapped manuals for many OLD programs...Think C, Think Pascal, Timbuktu, Retrospect Remote, TrueBasic, etc. -- basically, things that are related to Mac system admin, or that are likely to be found in the math/cs dept of a college. If you're looking for software in those categories, email me off-list and I'll see if it's in the pile. IBM Manuals (outside my area of knowledge, I just wrote down the titles -- these are all mini-3-ring binders with cloth covers and "IBM" on them, some of which are together in original box as a set): - Technical Reference 2.02 PC XT - Macro Assembler - Guide to Operations - BASIC - MS DOS 2.10 - MS DOS 2.00 Let me know if you want any of these! -- MB From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Sun Apr 23 17:57:45 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: Manuals! Want 'em? In-Reply-To: <30115882@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU>; from Marion Bates on Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 04:25:15PM -0400 References: <30115882@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Message-ID: <20000423155745.F1455@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> On Sun, Apr 23, 2000 at 04:25:15PM -0400, Marion Bates wrote: > After much digging and sneezing, I've gathered some manuals to unload...mostly Mac-related but also some IBM. Here are a few I wrote down: > > Apple stuff: > - shrinkwrapped IIsi and IIci owner's manuals (entire unopened sets of manuals for IIci -- including sys 7 reference -- email me if you want a list of what books are included) I'm somewhat interested depending on how technical they are > - shrinkwrapped Guide to System 7 > - shrinkwrapped Guide to Macintosh Common LISP (I don't know if there are disks in there too, if you're interested let me know and I'll check) Yeah, that'd be cool if there are disks > - big ol' box of A/UX manuals (didn't look in the box, so it may not be complete, but it probably is) Again are there disks for this too? > - various other system manuals, not shrinkwrapped > - assorted non-shrinkwrapped manuals for many OLD programs...Think C, Think Pascal, Timbuktu, Retrospect Remote, TrueBasic, etc. -- basically, things that are related to Mac system admin, or that are likely to be found in the math/cs dept of a college. If you're looking for software in those categories, email me off-list and I'll see if it's in the pile. I'd be interested in some of the programming related ones; I already have ThinkC with manuals but if there are any Apple books like the Inside Macintosh series or whatnot, that would be useful for programming... also interested in the mathematical ones... like if you've got Mathematica that would be quite useful indeed. > > IBM Manuals (outside my area of knowledge, I just wrote down the titles -- these are all mini-3-ring binders with cloth covers and "IBM" on them, some of which are together in original box as a set): > > - Technical Reference 2.02 PC XT > - Macro Assembler I could use these. -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Apr 23 18:44:19 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: Interesting finds; 1801, National Semiconductor RM-665, Grid,HPs.. In-Reply-To: <018301bfacc1$9a7f68d0$7664c0d0@ajp166> (allisonp@world.std.com) References: <018301bfacc1$9a7f68d0$7664c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <20000423234419.27114.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > The databook indicated that the 1801 is a two-chip set, which consists of > the CDP1801C and CDP1801R, the former containing the control circuitry and > that latter containing the registers. Apparently RCA designed it as a > production prototype, and did not intend it for commercial use, instead > recommending that customers design in the 1802 which was due out soon > thereafter. Allison wrote: > Not quite true. the pair were used by special customers for quite a while > as they were by basic construction rad hard. That's not inconsistent with what I wrote. Rad-hard parts are not considered "commercial" use. From vaxman at uswest.net Sun Apr 23 19:38:42 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: Things that make you sick! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000421224515.399721ce@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: Motorola labeled the first run of parts XC (experimental?), then switched to MC for production. I worked with one of the first 68020 boards from Force Computers which had an XC68020 on it. If you find info on the MC88200, it is the same as the XC88200. clint On Fri, 21 Apr 2000, Joe wrote: > Mike and I went to one place today and found the remains of a Data General > Aiivion (sp?) in the scrap metal pile. We had gotten there too late to > save it. :-( I did get the CPU module out of it. It has three large ICs on > it. Two are XC88200RC25B s and the other is a MC88100RC25. Can anyone tell > me what exactly these are? > > > Joe > > > From Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu Sun Apr 23 21:40:52 2000 From: Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu (Marion Bates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: ID this board? Message-ID: <30127412@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Thanks Tony, There are several large chips that say "Xilinx XC2018-70 PC84C A6396A9103E." More revealing, maybe, is what I just spotted amidst stickers and components: "Central Processing Unit." Heh. So this appears to be a big honkin motherboard from some...analytical thing. Another largish chip says "Dallas DS1287 Real Time" followed by more numbers. I am gonna hang this on my wall. Unless someone on the list is dying to have it. --MB --- Tony Duell wrote: > > Hey all, > > > I was at the local computer junkyard today and snagged a logic board I can't > identify. If anyone knows what it is, please enlighten me/us... > > > It's about 15 inches wide and 9 deep. Has a "test passed" sticker dated 1991. > The whole front edge is a connector. The rear port labels include things like > "octal-UART connector," "SCSI bus to disc," and lots of letters and numbers. It > says "Computer board PC 1916" on the left side and "Link Analytical made in > England" on the right. It was in a static bag and looks unused. I've sort-of come across a company called 'Link Systems'. In fact one of my ASR33s (Data Dynamics case/electronics) is badged by them. >From what I remember they made computerised (mostly) analytical instruments, spectrometers, electron microscopes, that sort of thing. The computers were sometimes based on PDP11 CPUs (or occasionally DG Novas IIRC). They may well have designed their own CPU boards later on, but I've never seen anything like that. My guess is that you've found a board, possibly an interface, possibly a complete CPU, from one of these instruments. What (if any) large chips are on it? -tony --- end of quote --- From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Sun Apr 23 13:42:16 2000 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: Netscape on Solaris 2.4 In-Reply-To: <39033205.6BB71F3F@cheta.net> from "Jeffrey S. Worley" at "Apr 23, 2000 01:25:25 pm" Message-ID: <20000424055347Z433882-25881+6@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > > # ./netscape > xlib: connection to ":0.0" refused by server > xlib: Client is not authorized to connect to Server > Error: Can't open display: :0.0 > This is an X problem. Are you running an X server? The error message indicates that netscape can't connect to the X server running on your workstation. Since you appear to have your display set correctly, my first guess is that the X server isn't running. The other possibility is that the X server is running under a different user id. This would happen if you su or login as another user after the server has been started for the current session. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From marvin at rain.org Mon Apr 24 01:58:19 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: PDP Handbook References: <30127412@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Message-ID: <3903F08B.152EC55D@rain.org> I was just browsing through Golds Auction site and ran across the PDP11 Processor Handbook. The current price is $0.99 and the URL is: http://www.goldsauction.com/apps/viewItem.html?exItemID=398304 I have bought a few things from this seller before and he is one of the most pleasant people I have ever bought things from online! From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Mon Apr 24 08:20:34 2000 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: IBM 3725 In Central Illinois In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's a communications controller for an IBM mainframe computer. You hooked it up to your mainframe, put another comm controller on the other end of a leased line, and you could have terminals/printers etc. hooked up to a remote location. -Bob >List, > > There is an IBM 3725 available in Champaign/Urbana Illinois at a local >scrapper. > > It is large, blue, and runs on three phase (as far as I could tell). > > Please let me know if anyone is interested in saving it. No docs, no >media, no nothing... Just a large heavy blue computer. I certainly have >neither the space nor the juice to house this beast. > > I'm also quite interested in what it is. > > Thanks for your replies, and please email if you have an interest in >the system. > > > - Dan Linder / dlinder@uiuc.edu / upside@mcs.net - > - Riot sounds start riots. / keep talking... - Bob Brown Saved by grace Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown From technoid at cheta.net Mon Apr 24 08:28:46 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: Netscape on Solaris 2.4 In-Reply-To: <20000424055347Z433882-25881+6@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <200004241330.JAA27878@lexington.ioa.net> Right on. I did a search on Deja for this error. "XHOST +" from a command line fixes it. I'm up and running! BTW, Netscape 4.72 on solaris 2.4 looks really really good. I was surprised. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From jfedorko at virtualadmin.com Mon Apr 24 10:14:41 2000 From: jfedorko at virtualadmin.com (jfedorko@virtualadmin.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: Somewhat OT: Then & Now. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Then... Big timesharing companies... Now... Application Service Providers Then... Service Bureaus... Now ... Web Hosting companies Is it repackaging or recycling? -Joel -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of David Vohs Sent: Friday, April 21, 2000 22:53 To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Somewhat OT: Then & Now. This is something that I had posted on the comp.sys.cbm newsgroup that I thought would be intresting to see how much the computer world has (or hasn't) changed starting right around 1980 or so. So if you've seen this before, I apologize. Anyway, here are some things that have changed (or have they?) in the computer world: Back then we had: Daisychained peripherals to the Commodore IEC serial bus. Now we have: Daisychained peripherals to the Universal Serial Bus. Back then we had: The Original Macintosh. Now we have: The iMac. Back then we had: Computers with a built-in RF modulator. Now we have: Video cards with a built-in RF modluator. Back then we had: The Original Macintosh II. Now we have: The G3/G4 PowerMac. Back then we had: The Commodore 1581 head-knocking/Click of Death problem. Now we have: The Iomega Zip drives' Click of Death problem. Back then we had: The Macintosh Portable. Now we have: The iMac. Back then we had: The Tandy Model 100. Now we have: The PalmPilot. This is all that I could think of, I want anybody who can think of anything that hasn't changed to add something on this list. Let's show people that the old phrase "The more things change, the more things stay the same" is true! ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Mon Apr 24 11:12:05 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: Somewhat OT: Then & Now. In-Reply-To: from "jfedorko@virtualadmin.com" at "Apr 24, 0 11:14:41 am" Message-ID: <200004241612.JAA07896@oa.ptloma.edu> [Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...] ::Then... Big timesharing companies... Now... Application Service Providers :: ::Then... Service Bureaus... Now ... Web Hosting companies :: ::Is it repackaging or recycling? How about: Then: Dummy terminals (wimpy computers connected to a server). Now: Network computers (wimpy computers connected to a server). -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- The whippings shall continue until morale improves. ------------------------ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 24 12:15:00 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: ID this board? In-Reply-To: <30127412@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> from "Marion Bates" at Apr 23, 0 10:40:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 702 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000424/8afe9357/attachment.ksh From earl_evans at yahoo.com Mon Apr 24 12:54:55 2000 From: earl_evans at yahoo.com (Earl Evans) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: Manuals! Want 'em? Message-ID: <20000424175455.20006.qmail@web124.yahoomail.com> I would love to have the MS-DOS 2.x manuals, the Guide to Operations, and the IBM BASIC reference manual, if someone hasn't beat me to it. Thanks, - Earl --- Marion Bates wrote: > After much digging and sneezing, I've gathered some manuals to > unload...mostly Mac-related but also some IBM. Here are a few > I wrote down: > > Apple stuff: > - shrinkwrapped IIsi and IIci owner's manuals (entire unopened > sets of manuals for IIci -- including sys 7 reference -- email > me if you want a list of what books are included) > - shrinkwrapped Guide to System 7 > - shrinkwrapped Guide to Macintosh Common LISP (I don't know > if there are disks in there too, if you're interested let me > know and I'll check) > - big ol' box of A/UX manuals (didn't look in the box, so it > may not be complete, but it probably is) > - various other system manuals, not shrinkwrapped > - assorted non-shrinkwrapped manuals for many OLD > programs...Think C, Think Pascal, Timbuktu, Retrospect Remote, > TrueBasic, etc. -- basically, things that are related to Mac > system admin, or that are likely to be found in the math/cs > dept of a college. If you're looking for software in those > categories, email me off-list and I'll see if it's in the > pile. > > IBM Manuals (outside my area of knowledge, I just wrote down > the titles -- these are all mini-3-ring binders with cloth > covers and "IBM" on them, some of which are together in > original box as a set): > > - Technical Reference 2.02 PC XT > - Macro Assembler > - Guide to Operations > - BASIC > - MS DOS 2.10 > - MS DOS 2.00 > > Let me know if you want any of these! > > -- MB > > > ===== Earl Evans retro@retrobits.com Enjoy Retrocomputing Today! Join us at http://www.retrobits.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com From sring at uslink.net Mon Apr 24 13:13:17 2000 From: sring at uslink.net (Stephanie Ring) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: Manuals! Want 'em? References: <30115882@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Message-ID: <009901bfae18$c5aa8c80$9157ddcc@uslink.net> I would like all the manuals you still have. From: "Stephanie Ring" sring@uslink.net ----- Original Message ----- From: Marion Bates To: Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2000 3:25 PM Subject: Manuals! Want 'em? > After much digging and sneezing, I've gathered some manuals to unload...mostly Mac-related but also some IBM. Here are a few I wrote down: > > Apple stuff: > - shrinkwrapped IIsi and IIci owner's manuals (entire unopened sets of manuals for IIci -- including sys 7 reference -- email me if you want a list of what books are included) > - shrinkwrapped Guide to System 7 > - shrinkwrapped Guide to Macintosh Common LISP (I don't know if there are disks in there too, if you're interested let me know and I'll check) > - big ol' box of A/UX manuals (didn't look in the box, so it may not be complete, but it probably is) > - various other system manuals, not shrinkwrapped > - assorted non-shrinkwrapped manuals for many OLD programs...Think C, Think Pascal, Timbuktu, Retrospect Remote, TrueBasic, etc. -- basically, things that are related to Mac system admin, or that are likely to be found in the math/cs dept of a college. If you're looking for software in those categories, email me off-list and I'll see if it's in the pile. > > IBM Manuals (outside my area of knowledge, I just wrote down the titles -- these are all mini-3-ring binders with cloth covers and "IBM" on them, some of which are together in original box as a set): > > - Technical Reference 2.02 PC XT > - Macro Assembler > - Guide to Operations > - BASIC > - MS DOS 2.10 > - MS DOS 2.00 > > Let me know if you want any of these! > > -- MB From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Apr 24 14:50:32 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: Manuals! Want 'em? In-Reply-To: <009901bfae18$c5aa8c80$9157ddcc@uslink.net> References: <30115882@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Message-ID: >I would like all the manuals you still have. Sounds like a lot of manual labor. ;) Just sitting here snickering, I know people who dump documentation by the pallet, maybe two dozen moving boxes at a time, ie 800 lbs. Wouldn't be funny having that on your porch freight collect. Now don't get me wrong, I'm a full service all materials storage facility, but the last pallet load I dug to the bottom of wasn't very fullfilling. From Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu Mon Apr 24 15:23:36 2000 From: Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu (Marion Bates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: Manuals! Want 'em? Message-ID: <30161545@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 167 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000424/54f007af/attachment.bin From vcf at siconic.com Mon Apr 24 14:46:49 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: Industrial IBM XT Message-ID: Here is someone with an industrialized IBM XT looking for a new home. Please reply directly to the orginal sender. Reply-to: attwss027@inetmail.att.net ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 19:12:25 -0500 From: Mark G To: donate@vintage.org Subject: computer to donate: details Greetings, I have a very unusual machine which deserves a home other than the trash can. I can't remember the model numbers. I can look them up. It is an Industrial XT from IBM. It has: 10meg hard drive. full height 360k floppy drive. extra fan to suck air into the case. bar which clamps over the cards. 400 watt power supply. 8088 chip with 8087 and full ram. EGA monitor which is enclosed in a protective case includes a built-in fan to keep innards cool. This is fully working and comes with the classic magnesium keyboard. At my parent's house I also have a boxed set of IBM DOS 1.1 including the original disks and manual. I'm getting married soon and "gotta get rid of the computer soon." I hope this computer will be a good addition to your museum. Sincerely, Mark Gholson AT&T Commercial Web Site Services Home email: onear@juno.com onear@hotmail.com Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Mon Apr 24 15:58:31 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: KYBD (was: VAXstation 4000VLC) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000b01bfae2f$d99aa5b0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Zane H. Healy >One of my requirements is that it be able to take a PS/2 Keyboard and >mouse, as I want to be able to plug in something like a LK450 keyboard, and >a 3 button mouse. I'm basically a 98.5% Software and 1.5% Hardware-knowledge guy. With the little I know - about the PIC micro - It seems like I could make a 'protocol' converter between keyboards: IBM-101 to LK201 and the reverse, etc. But I'm busy and lazy and was wondering if anybody out there ever saw someone _Sell_ keyboard converters that do this? From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Mon Apr 24 16:37:23 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: KYBD (was: VAXstation 4000VLC) In-Reply-To: <000b01bfae2f$d99aa5b0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com>; from John.Allain@donnelley.infousa.com on Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 04:58:31PM -0400 References: <000b01bfae2f$d99aa5b0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <20000424173723.A27099@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 04:58:31PM -0400, John Allain wrote: > But I'm busy and lazy and was wondering if anybody out there > ever saw someone _Sell_ keyboard converters that do this? I haven't seen any, do you think anyone would buy them if they existed? Might be kind of a fun project. And yeah, 98.5% software and 1.5% hardware sounds like a perfect fit, anyway if you build them I'll sure buy one. John Wilson D Bit From rhudson at ix.netcom.com Mon Apr 24 17:15:19 2000 From: rhudson at ix.netcom.com (rhudson@ix.netcom.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: VMS clone.. Message-ID: Once upon a time there was a company putting out a VMS clone for the IBM PC/XT/AT.. These same guys had a Unix look alike too. Who where they? anyone remember? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon Apr 24 17:53:45 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: VMS clone.. In-Reply-To: from "rhudson@ix.netcom.com" at "Apr 24, 2000 06:15:19 pm" Message-ID: <200004242253.SAA14518@bg-tc-ppp980.monmouth.com> > Once upon a time there was a company putting out a VMS clone for the IBM PC/XT/AT.. These same guys had a Unix look alike too. > > Who where they? anyone remember? > > > Wendin PC/VMS... I've got the manuals, if I could only find the disks. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From rivie at teraglobal.com Mon Apr 24 18:06:01 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: VMS clone.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Once upon a time there was a company putting out a VMS clone for the >IBM PC/XT/AT.. These same guys had a Unix look alike too. > >Who where they? anyone remember? You're probably thinking of Wendin's PC/VMS and PC/Unix products. They were built using Wendin's Operating System Toolkit. Although the sources to PC/VMS and PC/Unix were available separately from the OS Toolkit, you really needed both for it to be useful (I know; I bought a copy of PC/VMS). If you're looking for a DEC-flavored OS for the PC, I would recommend S&H's TSX-32. There's a two-user shareware version available on the net somewhere. I've used the shareware version and bought a bunch of their documentation, but haven't had an excuse to spring for the full-blown version of the OS. S&H can be found at http://www.sandh.com/. -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 24 19:34:45 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: KYBD (was: VAXstation 4000VLC) In-Reply-To: <000b01bfae2f$d99aa5b0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> from "John Allain" at Apr 24, 2000 04:58:31 PM Message-ID: <200004250034.RAA17184@shell1.aracnet.com> > >One of my requirements is that it be able to take a PS/2 Keyboard and > >mouse, as I want to be able to plug in something like a LK450 keyboard, and > >a 3 button mouse. > > I'm basically a 98.5% Software and 1.5% Hardware-knowledge guy. > With the little I know - about the PIC micro - It seems like I > could make a 'protocol' converter between keyboards: > IBM-101 to LK201 and the reverse, etc. > But I'm busy and lazy and was wondering if anybody out there > ever saw someone _Sell_ keyboard converters that do this? Well, that's why I specified the LK450, as it'll plug into a PS/2 keyboard port, as will several other DEC Keyboards (I'm not sure of the top of my head which is the proper one for OpenVMS). OTOH, if the laptop was a Mac I've found the LK201 emulation for eXodus to work fairly good, once I figured out how to set DECterm to print the '<' and '>' when I hit the correct keys. Zane From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Apr 24 20:04:35 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: Another VaxStation 3100 revisited... In-Reply-To: References: <01d501bfacd9$161181b0$7664c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000424210435.00946660@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Zane H. Healy may have mentioned these words: >Well, since it the default boot is set to ESA0 it was most likely set up >for a network boot off of a cluster disk. That means you've most likely >got a RZ23 for the Hard Disk, which was used for the pagefile and swapfile. >While it's possible to fit OpenVMS on a 100Mb drive, you'll probably want >to find a larger drive. I've found a RZ25 is comfortable on a 3100 for a >little light compiling. I just got (one of) my VaxStation 3100's running, but don't have any docfiles available for it yet... but I have an IIRC RZ26 (it's 540Meg, anyway) as the main drive that I _wanted_ to use for VMS and I have an RZ24 (230Meg) that I put Ultrix on just to tinker with (and it fit w/50M to spare!). I have a bajangle[1] of VMS CD's (from a friend) but only one boots (labeled VMS 7.1 Binaries)... It seems to boot VMS (for the very little I've ever seen of VMS -- Why didn't I pay attention over the last few years... ;-) but it's a very stripped VMS as the only command that seems to exist is the "b" command, which seems to invoke some form of backup command that can take a "/IMAGE" parameter that I can't seem to get working... Does VMS install from a backup type file, or do I not have any actual install CD's? BTW, main disk is DKA0, subdisk is DKA200, floppy is DKA500, and CDROM is DKB400. Ultrix seems to run fine from DKA200, but seems kinda slow... (of course, this is in comparison to running Linux on a dual-processor P2-350 w/256Meg RAM, but in these days of instant gratification... ;-) With apologies to Dire Straits, "I want my... I want my... I want my VMS!!!" ;-) BTW, when the machine boots (to the ROM monitor) I get the F...E...D... etc.. with all dots until it gets to (IIRC, machine home, me work): 3_..2_..1?.. and then spits out what appears to be a memory address. Ethernet's not hooked up -- any chance one of those is the network interface saying "Hello... Anybody out there?" and any speculation as if the machine might have some heartburn? Thanks Tons, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] "a bajangle of" is hereby declared as "at least 15 different..." ;-) P.S. I might have asked this once before, but a website or two with online docs would be *much* appreciated! (I tried the obvious ones, like www.vms.org and www.decus.org, but I didn't find much in technical info...) -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From charp at bitflash.com Mon Apr 24 20:09:31 2000 From: charp at bitflash.com (Frederic Charpentier) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: Sony SMC-70 Message-ID: The Sony SMC-70 used the Sony Profeel for a monitor. This monitor used a special RGB connector... Anyway the signal is a standard RGB 1 Volt Peak-To-Peak, the resolution is standard NTSC. Frederic Charpentier From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Apr 24 19:55:04 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: Another VaxStation 3100 revisited... Message-ID: <005501bfae51$0ca50ab0$7b64c0d0@ajp166> >I have a bajangle[1] of VMS CD's (from a friend) but only one boots >(labeled VMS 7.1 Binaries)... It seems to boot VMS (for the very little >I've ever seen of VMS -- Why didn't I pay attention over the last few >years... ;-) but it's a very stripped VMS as the only command that seems to >exist is the "b" command, which seems to invoke some form of backup command >that can take a "/IMAGE" parameter that I can't seem to get working... Ok I don't have the paper handy but thats the disk you want. the bootable image is standalone backup and is used to copy and start the real install. >Does VMS install from a backup type file, or do I not have any actual >install CD's? Yes, from a backup. Sounds like you have the right disk. All you needs is a license and instructions. The license see the DECUS.org site for and also check Montagar.com as they supply a $30 VMS 7.1 cd for those that don't have. >BTW, main disk is DKA0, subdisk is DKA200, floppy is DKA500, and CDROM is >DKB400. Ok... DKAnnn means SCSI A disk 0->7 as in 0, 100, 200...700. DKBnnn is the second scsi bus. The typical drive IDs are any other than 6 (thats the vax). What device is the default boot is based on a SET command. You can have no default set in which case it powers up to the system command prompt, making and addressable device (disk, tape, network) bootable using the correct >>> B {device}. >Ultrix seems to run fine from DKA200, but seems kinda slow... (of course, >this is in comparison to running Linux on a dual-processor P2-350 w/256Meg >RAM, but in these days of instant gratification... ;-) Well keeping mind the 3100 you have was fast when 386dx33s and 486DX33s were the hot stuff. You'll find that in some ways it's faster than that dual P350! Just load it down and then ask it do do a directory... >BTW, when the machine boots (to the ROM monitor) I get the F...E...D... >etc.. with all dots until it gets to (IIRC, machine home, me work): > >3_..2_..1?.. > >and then spits out what appears to be a memory address. Ethernet's not Fairly normal selftest (like PC post). There is a list somewhere for wehat that means. Also the boot monitor has a fairly long list of commands for doing things like INITing disks and such. Check some of the links at the NetBSD VAX-port area. The 3100 series is pretty popular and lots of them around. >hooked up -- any chance one of those is the network interface saying >"Hello... Anybody out there?" and any speculation as if the machine might >have some heartburn? Yes, Sounds like that one has the ESA0 (eithernet) set to boot using DEC MOP protocal. Yes, once VMS is on it you can have that one MOP load another(or even install to it!)! Allison From charp at bitflash.com Mon Apr 24 20:58:32 2000 From: charp at bitflash.com (Frederic Charpentier) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: Where has everybody gone? Message-ID: Abrupt end of list... Solitude... Anguish.... Is anybody out there? Frederic Charpentier From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 24 21:03:11 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: Another VaxStation 3100 revisited... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000424210435.00946660@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Apr 24, 2000 09:04:35 PM Message-ID: <200004250203.TAA27983@shell1.aracnet.com> Roger "Merch" Merchberger wrote: > I just got (one of) my VaxStation 3100's running, but don't have any > docfiles available for it yet... but I have an IIRC RZ26 (it's 540Meg, That would be the RZ25. IIRC the RZ26 is 1Gb, and the RZ28 is 2GB (I know the RZ28 and RZ25 are right). > anyway) as the main drive that I _wanted_ to use for VMS and I have an RZ24 > (230Meg) that I put Ultrix on just to tinker with (and it fit w/50M to > spare!). Cool, so far I've only got Ultrix running on a DECstation. Mainly due to lack of interest and time. I actually plan on running NetBSD on the DECstation, but haven't had time to blow away Ultrix :^) > I have a bajangle[1] of VMS CD's (from a friend) but only one boots > (labeled VMS 7.1 Binaries)... It seems to boot VMS (for the very little > I've ever seen of VMS -- Why didn't I pay attention over the last few > years... ;-) but it's a very stripped VMS as the only command that seems to > exist is the "b" command, which seems to invoke some form of backup command > that can take a "/IMAGE" parameter that I can't seem to get working... > > Does VMS install from a backup type file, or do I not have any actual > install CD's? See the following: http://www.montagar.com/~patj/vbegin.htm > Ultrix seems to run fine from DKA200, but seems kinda slow... (of course, > this is in comparison to running Linux on a dual-processor P2-350 w/256Meg > RAM, but in these days of instant gratification... ;-) That's why I'm not that interested in running UNIX on older hardware! Of course now that I've got a PWS 433au with 320MB RAM, I'm not sure I'm that interested in running VMS on older hardware :^) Although depending on what you're doing and how their configured a VAX can feel just about as fast as an Alpha. > With apologies to Dire Straits, "I want my... I want my... I want my > VMS!!!" ;-) Don't blame you, it is after all one of the top two OS's out there, the other being MacOS! > BTW, when the machine boots (to the ROM monitor) I get the F...E...D... > etc.. with all dots until it gets to (IIRC, machine home, me work): > > 3_..2_..1?.. > > and then spits out what appears to be a memory address. Ethernet's not > hooked up -- any chance one of those is the network interface saying > "Hello... Anybody out there?" and any speculation as if the machine might > have some heartburn? I think this might help, but I'm not up on the boot codes. http://anacin.nsc.vcu.edu/~jim/mvax/mvax_faq.html > [1] "a bajangle of" is hereby declared as "at least 15 different..." ;-) So is it a CONDIST? Even with the Hobbyist CD's it's very nice to have a set of the CD's as there is a lot that is left out! > P.S. I might have asked this once before, but a website or two with online > docs would be *much* appreciated! (I tried the obvious ones, like > www.vms.org and www.decus.org, but I didn't find much in technical info...) http://www.openvms.digital.com:8000/ should be your first choice, the :8000 is very important. This is the OpenVMS documentation site. For the OpenVMS Hobbyist program http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/ For the FAQ http://eisner.decus.org/vms/faq.htm You might find a little good info at the following also: http://www.vaxarchive.org http://www.netbsd.org Zane From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Apr 24 21:43:55 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: Where has everybody gone? Message-ID: <17.4a946cb.2636606b@aol.com> In a message dated 4/24/00 10:05:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, charp@bitflash.com writes: > Abrupt end of list... Solitude... Anguish.... > > Is anybody out there? > > Frederic Charpentier what the heck are you talking about? plenty of conversation going on... DB Young ICQ: 29427634 view the computers of yesteryear at http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm --You can lead a whore to Vassar, but you can't make her think-- From lemay at cs.umn.edu Mon Apr 24 21:49:26 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: Identify this LSI-11 floppy controller Message-ID: <200004250249.CAA03932@thorin.cs.umn.edu> I have a couple floppy disk controllers from a device that contained an integrated LSI-11 cpu and a few other boards. The floppy controller is from Charles River Data Systems (C) 1978. On the connector, one of them has FC-202 / 1613 on it, the other has FC-202 / 1703. The floppy disks that were connected to it were single sided shugarts (801-2 if i recall correctly). I'm curious if these can handle DSDD, and anything else that anyone knows about it. Also, is their a web site with information on pdp-11 boards, similar to the PDP8 omnibus lists and such that are available? i'd like to be able to look up what should be common boards, such as LSI-11 cpus, 32K 18 bit MOS memory boards, various serial and parallel interface cards, etc. -Lawrence LeMay From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Apr 24 22:17:31 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: PDP-5 Rescued! Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000424201435.025574e0@208.226.86.10> This didn't seem to make it out the first time, so here goes a second. I managed to rescue the PDP-5 that I've "owned" for some time now, but it was stuck in a far away city. Anyhoo, I've put up the obligatory pictures at for anyone who cares to take a peek at it. This uses "DEC System Modules" the pre-cursor to the DEC Flip Chip technology. It hasn't been powered on in 15 years so I'll be a bit cautious getting the caps warmed up in the PSU. -15V transistor logic, wild stuff! --Chuck From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Apr 24 22:49:32 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: Another VaxStation 3100 revisited... In-Reply-To: <005501bfae51$0ca50ab0$7b64c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000424234932.0138a7d0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that allisonp may have mentioned these words: >Ok I don't have the paper handy but thats the disk you want. the bootable >image is standalone backup and is used to copy and start the real install. Ok. I'll check out the sites that Zane sent me to see if I can find the correct parameters... [snip] >Sounds like you have the right disk. All you needs is a >license and instructions. The license see the DECUS.org site for and also >check Montagar.com as they supply a $30 VMS 7.1 cd for those that don't >have. I just applied for the DECUS basic membership (for the license) and maybe after summer I can afford the support membership (building a house this year - have to conserve all the money I can...) >Ok... DKAnnn means SCSI A disk 0->7 as in 0, 100, 200...700. DKBnnn >is the second scsi bus. That's what I figgered... ;-) >The typical drive IDs are any other than 6 (thats the vax). What device is >the default boot is based on a SET command. You can have no default set in >which case it powers up to the system command prompt, making and addressable >device (disk, tape, network) bootable using the correct >>> B {device}. Yes, actually, I *really* like not having a default - makes a nice, neat bootmanager whether you want to boot from HD # 1, HD # 2, or CD-ROM... >Well keeping mind the 3100 you have was fast when 386dx33s and 486DX33s >were the hot stuff. You'll find that in some ways it's faster than that >dual P350! >Just load it down and then ask it do do a directory... I do agree - but the machine (at least for now) won't have a heavy load, and as I don't have a ton of free time, I want an OS that's a little snappier... hence my desire to run VMS. ;-) >The 3100 series is pretty popular and lots of them around. Yes, I have 4 of them now... ;-) >Allison And also... rumor has it that healyzh@aracnet.com may have mentioned these words: >That would be the RZ25. IIRC the RZ26 is 1Gb, and the RZ28 is 2GB (I know >the RZ28 and RZ25 are right). Well, I've been running DEC equipment now since... Easter. ;-) So I don't have all the nomenclature mezmerized *just* yet... ;-) However, I did just snag 2 RZ26's today, so I might swap out the RZ25 for a little more room... >Cool, so far I've only got Ultrix running on a DECstation. Mainly due to >lack of interest and time. I actually plan on running NetBSD on the >DECstation, but haven't had time to blow away Ultrix :^) Well, the install was quite painless (better than Win98 by a longshot) but rather slow due to the slower CDROM and whatnot... >See the following: >http://www.montagar.com/~patj/vbegin.htm Ah, yes... I wouldn't have been able to guess all the parameters, so I most certainly appreciate the pointer! :-) >Don't blame you, it is after all one of the top two OS's out there, the >other being MacOS! Not to sound like a jerk, but MacOS? I realize it was the first (well, mass-produced) GUI, etc, etc, etc, but I found it rather deflating & powerless after cutting my teeth on OS-9... >So is it a CONDIST? Even with the Hobbyist CD's it's very nice to have a >set of the CD's as there is a lot that is left out! The person I got the machines from worked for Digital for years before they got bought by Compaq, and VMS is his favo[u]rite OS. Although one of the CD's is the freeware CD, I don't think it's the hobbyist set, as there's 11 software CD's in the distribution. Is the hobbyist set marked as such, or are they indistinguishable from a normal set? >> P.S. I might have asked this once before, but a website or two with online >> docs would be *much* appreciated! (I tried the obvious ones, like >> www.vms.org and www.decus.org, but I didn't find much in technical info...) > >http://www.openvms.digital.com:8000/ should be your first choice, the :8000 >is very important. This is the OpenVMS documentation site. > >For the OpenVMS Hobbyist program http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/ > >For the FAQ http://eisner.decus.org/vms/faq.htm > >You might find a little good info at the following also: >http://www.vaxarchive.org >http://www.netbsd.org I've already learned a bunch! Thanks! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 24 22:57:04 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: PDP-5 Rescued! In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000424201435.025574e0@208.226.86.10> from "Chuck McManis" at Apr 24, 2000 08:17:31 PM Message-ID: <200004250357.UAA06332@shell1.aracnet.com> > > This didn't seem to make it out the first time, so here goes a second. > > I managed to rescue the PDP-5 that I've "owned" for some time now, but it > was stuck in a far away city. Anyhoo, I've put up the obligatory pictures > at for anyone who cares > to take a peek at it. This uses "DEC System Modules" the pre-cursor to the > DEC Flip Chip technology. It hasn't been powered on in 15 years so I'll be > a bit cautious getting the caps warmed up in the PSU. -15V transistor > logic, wild stuff! > > --Chuck > Most cool, even if it has been used as a training device for ET's :^) Now you just need a AN/UYK-7 computer! Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 24 23:03:55 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: Identify this LSI-11 floppy controller In-Reply-To: <200004250249.CAA03932@thorin.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Apr 25, 2000 02:49:26 AM Message-ID: <200004250403.VAA07190@shell1.aracnet.com> > Also, is their a web site with information on pdp-11 boards, similar > to the PDP8 omnibus lists and such that are available? i'd like to > be able to look up what should be common boards, such as LSI-11 > cpus, 32K 18 bit MOS memory boards, various serial and parallel > interface cards, etc. > > -Lawrence LeMay > For the PDP-11/VAX boards these are the lists: http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardware/field-guide.txt http://world.std.com/~mbg/pdp11-field-guide.txt For everything else try: ftp://zane.brouhaha.com/pub/ModuleList.txt This has *everything* found on the various PDP-8 lists, and a *LOT* that isn't. It's still a work in progress, and I've not found time to mess with it in months. Basically I got tired of having to check several lists when looking up non-PDP11/VAX boards. Zane From kbd at ndx.net Mon Apr 24 23:06:57 2000 From: kbd at ndx.net (Kirk Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: PDP-5 Rescued! In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000424201435.025574e0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: I suppose this means you don't want your PDP8's now. Right? Kirk > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Chuck McManis > Sent: Monday, April 24, 2000 8:18 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: PDP-5 Rescued! > > > This didn't seem to make it out the first time, so here goes a second. > > I managed to rescue the PDP-5 that I've "owned" for some time now, but it > was stuck in a far away city. Anyhoo, I've put up the obligatory pictures > at for anyone > who cares > to take a peek at it. This uses "DEC System Modules" the > pre-cursor to the > DEC Flip Chip technology. It hasn't been powered on in 15 years > so I'll be > a bit cautious getting the caps warmed up in the PSU. -15V transistor > logic, wild stuff! > > --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 25 00:05:52 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: Another VaxStation 3100 revisited... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000424234932.0138a7d0@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Apr 24, 2000 11:49:32 PM Message-ID: <200004250505.WAA13860@shell1.aracnet.com> > Well, I've been running DEC equipment now since... Easter. ;-) So I don't It's the 1GB drive that always gives me trouble! > have all the nomenclature mezmerized *just* yet... ;-) However, I did just > snag 2 RZ26's today, so I might swap out the RZ25 for a little more room... It depends on how many layered products you want, and how many 3rd party programs you want. A RZ25 is actaully fairly roomy. Still I've got my setup clustered so most of my stuff is on a couple disks. > Not to sound like a jerk, but MacOS? I realize it was the first (well, > mass-produced) GUI, etc, etc, etc, but I found it rather deflating & > powerless after cutting my teeth on OS-9... Well, what can I say, I like it because it is so simplistic! Not a lot to tweak, so I can actually get something done when I'm using it instead of spending all my time playing with the OS :^) As a result I'm kind of worried about Mac OS X being to powerful! I've also found the apps on the Mac to be the most consistent between programs and even publishers. I got my first Mac in '95 when Windows '95 came out and I lost faith in OS/2 (thanks mainly to the horrible quality of the commerical apps such as Lotus Smartsuite). I quickly came to appreciate how non-Tweakable it is. Besides if you add 'eXodus' it makes a great front-end to an OpenVMS cluster! > >So is it a CONDIST? Even with the Hobbyist CD's it's very nice to have a > >set of the CD's as there is a lot that is left out! > > The person I got the machines from worked for Digital for years before they > got bought by Compaq, and VMS is his favo[u]rite OS. Although one of the > CD's is the freeware CD, I don't think it's the hobbyist set, as there's 11 > software CD's in the distribution. Is the hobbyist set marked as such, or > are they indistinguishable from a normal set? Sorry should have been clear, the Hobbyist CD's are two CD's, one VAX, one Alpha. It really sounds like you've got a fairly recent (since it's got OpenVMS V7.1) CONDIST. I assume that most of the disks are labled 1 of 10 and such. I'm also guessing that the Freeware CD is V3. You've got enough software there to keep you going for *ages*. Sounds like you've got enough stuff to play with that you're going to want to use one of them RZ26's :^) Zane From whdawson at mlynk.com Tue Apr 25 00:01:39 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: PDP-5 Rescued! In-Reply-To: <200004250357.UAA06332@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <000e01bfae73$5777bc00$abe3dfd0@cobweb.net> -> Most cool, even if it has been used as a training device for -> ET's :^) Now -> you just need a AN/UYK-7 computer! -> -> Zane -> Around 1977-1979 the personalized Virginia license plate on my 1955 Ford Crown Victoria was UYK-7. Nice Univac machine, for a military unit. I still have the license plate around here (somewhere). Bill From vaxman at uswest.net Tue Apr 25 00:19:34 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: KYBD (was: VAXstation 4000VLC) In-Reply-To: <000b01bfae2f$d99aa5b0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: I've been contemplating such a device as well... Even collected documentation on the various interfaces, but haven't had time to work on it recently (too busy trying to keep my current job...) If someone wants to build them, I'll buy... Otherwise, I'll build one someday... I don't have enough space for all the monitors I'd need for all the VS3100's and DS3100's I seem to have collected... clint On Mon, 24 Apr 2000, John Allain wrote: > Zane H. Healy > > >One of my requirements is that it be able to take a PS/2 Keyboard and > >mouse, as I want to be able to plug in something like a LK450 keyboard, and > >a 3 button mouse. > > I'm basically a 98.5% Software and 1.5% Hardware-knowledge guy. > With the little I know - about the PIC micro - It seems like I > could make a 'protocol' converter between keyboards: > IBM-101 to LK201 and the reverse, etc. > But I'm busy and lazy and was wondering if anybody out there > ever saw someone _Sell_ keyboard converters that do this? > > > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Apr 25 00:48:40 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: VS4000/VLC (again) In-Reply-To: References: <000b01bfae2f$d99aa5b0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000424224330.01f57dc0@208.226.86.10> Just a note that the absolute latest NetBSD stuff can and does run on a VS4000/VLC. This is pretty cool as it makes a nice pizza-box type system that happens to be a VAX (not so cool as the laptop VAX but hey, still cool yes?) If you have one and want to get it running let me know and I'll give you the basics, the bottom line is that you will have to install it using a system that can run MOP, DHCP, and NFS but you can install to a local disk and then from then on you're home free. On an unrelated note I think I have enough bits to set up a pair of VS (as in VAXServer) 3400s as a VMS cluster! Since these things will cluster over DSSI it should be pretty neat. If I get it running I'll see if I can put it on the net for login access. That should be an interesting exercise! --Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Apr 25 00:50:24 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: PDP-5 Rescued! In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.1.2.20000424201435.025574e0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000424224911.00ce6100@208.226.86.10> At 09:06 PM 4/24/00 -0700, Kird Davis wrote: >I suppose this means you don't want your PDP8's now. Right? Au Contraire mon ami! It means now I need a PDP-12 to put the whole family together :-) Not that its all that likely that I'll find a -12. Still waiting to hear the press release from the company that bought all of John's machines. --Chuck From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Apr 25 00:53:06 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: Where has everybody gone? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Abrupt end of list... Solitude... Anguish.... > >Is anybody out there? > >Frederic Charpentier Didn't you get a notice, the list was purchased by MicroSoft. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 25 01:19:51 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: Where has everybody gone? In-Reply-To: Re: Where has everybody gone? (Mike Ford) References: Message-ID: <14597.14599.613421.617785@phaduka.neurotica.com> On April 24, Mike Ford wrote: > >Abrupt end of list... Solitude... Anguish.... > > > >Is anybody out there? > > > >Frederic Charpentier > > Didn't you get a notice, the list was purchased by MicroSoft. That's a *dirty* thing to say, man. -Dave McGuire From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 25 01:21:42 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:03 2005 Subject: VS4000/VLC (again) In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000424224330.01f57dc0@208.226.86.10> References: <000b01bfae2f$d99aa5b0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: >On an unrelated note I think I have enough bits to set up a pair of VS (as >in VAXServer) 3400s as a VMS cluster! Since these things will cluster over >DSSI it should be pretty neat. If I get it running I'll see if I can put it >on the net for login access. That should be an interesting exercise! > >--Chuck I've threatened to do a SCSI cluster, but never found the time. If you're going to do that, you'll need to set up TCPIP so that the two systems appear as one, so if one goes down you can still get to the cluster! That's something else I've not found enough time to try. As for putting them up on the net, all you need is the connection to the net. Hmmm, now that I think about it, I've now got enough systems around here to have both production and development clusters. Now that's a SCARY thought, considering the systems are just for my own fun! It's gotten so bad though that I've had to start mapping my cluster! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Tue Apr 25 02:35:03 2000 From: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:04 2005 Subject: VS4000/VLC (again) In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.1.2.20000424224330.01f57dc0@208.226.86.10> <000b01bfae2f$d99aa5b0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000425173223.0188dae0@kerberos.davies.net.au> At 11:21 PM 24-04-00 -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >On an unrelated note I think I have enough bits to set up a pair of VS (as > >in VAXServer) 3400s as a VMS cluster! Since these things will cluster over > >DSSI it should be pretty neat. If I get it running I'll see if I can put it > >on the net for login access. That should be an interesting exercise! > > > >--Chuck > >I've threatened to do a SCSI cluster, but never found the time. If you're >going to do that, you'll need to set up TCPIP so that the two systems >appear as one, so if one goes down you can still get to the cluster! >That's something else I've not found enough time to try. As for putting >them up on the net, all you need is the connection to the net. You'll find that SCSI clustering is restricted to Alphas only. For the smaller VAX systems it's either ethernet or DSSI. My own personal experience with DSSI was not altogether exciting. We'd purchased two 3400 hundreds to replace an 11/785 and an 11/780. The 3400s never seemed as fast. Eventually, the 3400s were replaced with an ethernet cluster consisting of a DEC3000-300, an 11/785 and an 11/780 and the old VAXes were much faster..... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Apr 25 08:06:19 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:04 2005 Subject: OT: Jagermeister [was: Re: VCF Europa & My Appearance at Oxford] In-Reply-To: <20000422022505.45463.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <200004251108.e3PB88a12048@mail2.siemens.de> > >Oh christ. > >One of my cars gets wrenched on by the guy who >maintains the Jaegermeister > >934; one of the perks (or >perhaps a prerequisite) of the job appears to be > >an >endless supply of Jagermeister and related banners, >glasses and the > >like. There's a Jagermeister shrine of >sorts in one corner of the shop, > >consisting of cases of >the stuff, a dedicated refrigerator filled with it, > > >assorted dirty glasses and a 55-gallon drum which is >usually overflowing > >with empty Jagermeister bottles >(which is a staggering sight). > >Every time I collect my car after one of its multi->month sojourns in this > >shop there's an obligatory >ritual of being offered a shot of this stuff > >for the >road because, and I quote, "...it's completely >harmless...", an > >assertion I find (literally) difficult >to swallow given that the stuff > >seems to be composed of >equal parts herbal cough syrup and Draino. > Harmless!?!?!? I don't see how that stuff is harmless! I don't know if you > know this, but Jagermeister has a certain little opiate in it (I'm not > kidding!) that makes you extremely violent. (If you've had too much, that > is.) It is, as halmless as any other mild alcoholic drink. I may destroy a successfull German marketing scheme, but Jaegermeister isn't that popular over here as in the US. Only during recent times (maybe 2-3 years) they push it again, and it's getting popular again among young folks, while most still associate it with old retired tastless kitsch. Well, sorry :) And for the basics, Jaegermeister is supposed to be a Magenbitter, a kind of drink after a big meal to help your stomach work ... There are a lot of other brands around. Servus Hans And BTW: During VCFe only beer will be served inside the exhibitions, for alcoholic beverages you have to wait for the evening - No, beer is not considered an alcoholic drink - at least not here in Bavaria :)) -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Apr 25 08:15:31 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:04 2005 Subject: Where has everybody gone? In-Reply-To: <14597.14599.613421.617785@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: Re: Where has everybody gone? (Mike Ford) Message-ID: <200004251117.e3PBHKa16417@mail2.siemens.de> > On April 24, Mike Ford wrote: > > >Abrupt end of list... Solitude... Anguish.... > > >Is anybody out there? > > >Frederic Charpentier > > Didn't you get a notice, the list was purchased by MicroSoft. > That's a *dirty* thing to say, man. (***) <- free pice of soap to wash your mouth! Hans -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Apr 25 07:21:10 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:04 2005 Subject: Identify this LSI-11 floppy controller Message-ID: <000425082110.2020059b@trailing-edge.com> >I have a couple floppy disk controllers from a device that contained an >integrated LSI-11 cpu and a few other boards. > >The floppy controller is from Charles River Data Systems (C) 1978. On >the connector, one of them has FC-202 / 1613 on it, the other has >FC-202 / 1703. The floppy disks that were connected to it were >single sided shugarts (801-2 if i recall correctly). Yep, what you have there is one of the early RX02 clones. >I'm curious if these can handle DSDD, and anything else that anyone >knows about it. No, it doesn't do DSDD. I've got a manual for the CRDS board here somewhere... If you're really interested in DSDD "RX03" controllers, the place to start your research is Chester Wilson's DYCM handler, which claims to support all the RX03 variants that exist in the wild. See http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/ go into "rt-11", then "misc", then "ducmv5". Read dyc.doc (which is really a text file, not a Microsoft Word file...) >Also, is their a web site with information on pdp-11 boards, similar >to the PDP8 omnibus lists and such that are available? i'd like to >be able to look up what should be common boards, such as LSI-11 >cpus, 32K 18 bit MOS memory boards, various serial and parallel >interface cards, etc. The "Field Guide to Q-Bus and Unibus Modules" is what you want, and versions have been floating around the net for years. It does very well with DEC-numbered modules, not so well with third-party boards (although they are admittedly a tough lot because they don't have a distinct series of identifying numbers!) You can find versions of it in many places, including the "hardware" page at http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/ and Megan's revisions at http://world.std.com/~mbg/ -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 25 07:23:22 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:04 2005 Subject: Identify this LSI-11 floppy controller In-Reply-To: <200004250249.CAA03932@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: > integrated LSI-11 cpu and a few other boards. > > The floppy controller is from Charles River Data Systems (C) 1978. On > the connector, one of them has FC-202 / 1613 on it, the other has > FC-202 / 1703. The floppy disks that were connected to it were > single sided shugarts (801-2 if i recall correctly). > > I'm curious if these can handle DSDD, and anything else that anyone > knows about it. Highly unlikely. Best guess is it's a RX01 equivelent. I have some CR books home and none that I can remember handle DD and some may do DS. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 25 07:31:03 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:04 2005 Subject: Another VaxStation 3100 revisited... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000424234932.0138a7d0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: > I do agree - but the machine (at least for now) won't have a heavy load, > and as I don't have a ton of free time, I want an OS that's a little > snappier... hence my desire to run VMS. ;-) I like VMS because it doesn't know what crash is and when you drop an elephant load on it nothing bad happens other than you wait a bit. > Yes, I have 4 of them now... ;-) Almost as amny as me. At my peak I have 15 of them(3100s). > Well, the install was quite painless (better than Win98 by a longshot) but > rather slow due to the slower CDROM and whatnot... Yes any may only have to do it once, ever. > The person I got the machines from worked for Digital for years before they > got bought by Compaq, and VMS is his favo[u]rite OS. Although one of the > CD's is the freeware CD, I don't think it's the hobbyist set, as there's 11 > software CD's in the distribution. Is the hobbyist set marked as such, or > are they indistinguishable from a normal set? Ah you got the DECUS freeware CD, great. Wanted one but they ran out of them. VMS 7.1 has support for TCP/ip, something to help you exploit them PCs. Also when you do the install leave in DECwindows as you can use that with an Xterm. I do that with a vt1200, rather nice being able to connect to any one of 8 Vaxen from one point. Allison From ghldbrd at ccp.com Tue Apr 25 13:40:18 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:04 2005 Subject: Where has everybody gone? In-Reply-To: <14597.14599.613421.617785@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: Hello Dave On 25-Apr-00, you wrote: > On April 24, Mike Ford wrote: >>> Abrupt end of list... Solitude... Anguish.... >>> >>> Is anybody out there? >>> >>> Frederic Charpentier >> >> Didn't you get a notice, the list was purchased by MicroSoft. > > That's a *dirty* thing to say, man. > > -Dave McGuire > Disgusting . . . . but not unlikely! I will give up my Amiga only when Bill Gates pries my cold dead fingers from around the keyboard and mouse . . . . . Gary Hildebrand From charp at bitflash.com Tue Apr 25 08:00:57 2000 From: charp at bitflash.com (Frederic Charpentier) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:04 2005 Subject: Apollo Workstation spotted in Ottawa In-Reply-To: <000425082110.2020059b@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: Hello all, I found a full working Apollo workstation in Ottawa. If there is any interest, I will check the model, etc... Frederic Charpentier -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2000 8:21 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Identify this LSI-11 floppy controller >I have a couple floppy disk controllers from a device that contained an >integrated LSI-11 cpu and a few other boards. > >The floppy controller is from Charles River Data Systems (C) 1978. On >the connector, one of them has FC-202 / 1613 on it, the other has >FC-202 / 1703. The floppy disks that were connected to it were >single sided shugarts (801-2 if i recall correctly). Yep, what you have there is one of the early RX02 clones. >I'm curious if these can handle DSDD, and anything else that anyone >knows about it. No, it doesn't do DSDD. I've got a manual for the CRDS board here somewhere... If you're really interested in DSDD "RX03" controllers, the place to start your research is Chester Wilson's DYCM handler, which claims to support all the RX03 variants that exist in the wild. See http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/ go into "rt-11", then "misc", then "ducmv5". Read dyc.doc (which is really a text file, not a Microsoft Word file...) >Also, is their a web site with information on pdp-11 boards, similar >to the PDP8 omnibus lists and such that are available? i'd like to >be able to look up what should be common boards, such as LSI-11 >cpus, 32K 18 bit MOS memory boards, various serial and parallel >interface cards, etc. The "Field Guide to Q-Bus and Unibus Modules" is what you want, and versions have been floating around the net for years. It does very well with DEC-numbered modules, not so well with third-party boards (although they are admittedly a tough lot because they don't have a distinct series of identifying numbers!) You can find versions of it in many places, including the "hardware" page at http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/ and Megan's revisions at http://world.std.com/~mbg/ -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Tue Apr 25 08:13:56 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:04 2005 Subject: KYBD (was: VAXstation 4000VLC) In-Reply-To: <20000424173723.A27099@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <000501bfaeb8$1d18e710$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Anybody out there have the ?LK201? electrical specification? John A. > On Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 04:58:31PM -0400, John Allain wrote: >> But I'm busy and lazy and was wondering if anybody out there >> ever saw someone _Sell_ keyboard converters that do this? On Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 5:37 PM, John Wilson (D Bit) wrote: > I haven't seen any, do you think anyone would buy them if they existed? > Might be kind of a fun project. And yeah, 98.5% software and 1.5% hardware > sounds like a perfect fit, anyway if you build them I'll sure buy one. From flo at rdel.co.uk Tue Apr 25 08:58:15 2000 From: flo at rdel.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:04 2005 Subject: KYBD (was: VAXstation 4000VLC) References: <000501bfaeb8$1d18e710$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <3905A477.21A4D11@rdel.co.uk> John Allain wrote: > > Anybody out there have the ?LK201? electrical specification? http://www.mit.edu/~mcmahill/NetBSD/pmax/LK201/lk201.html Basically, terminal supplies 12V. Link is RS423 levels. In correspondence with me a long time ago, Dan mentioned making a convertor box so he could connect a PC keyboard to a VT220, but I don't know whether he got anywhere. From bill at chipware.com Tue Apr 25 09:30:21 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:04 2005 Subject: PDP-5 Rescued! In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000424201435.025574e0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <000001bfaec2$c9434260$350810ac@yamato.chipware.com> > Anyhoo, I've put up the obligatory pictures at > > for anyone who cares to take a peek at it. This > uses "DEC System Modules" the pre-cursor to the > DEC Flip Chip technology. Beautiful! I now see where Stanley Kubrick got his inspiration for the interior of HAL. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Apr 25 10:31:33 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:04 2005 Subject: Where has everybody gone? In-Reply-To: References: <14597.14599.613421.617785@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: >>>> Is anybody out there? >>>> >>>> Frederic Charpentier >>> >>> Didn't you get a notice, the list was purchased by MicroSoft. >> >> That's a *dirty* thing to say, man. >> >> -Dave McGuire >> >Disgusting . . . . but not unlikely! > >I will give up my Amiga only when Bill Gates pries my cold dead fingers from >around the keyboard and mouse . . . . . You didn't get your manditory Windows 2000 upgrade notice either? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Apr 25 10:34:25 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:04 2005 Subject: KYBD (was: VAXstation 4000VLC) In-Reply-To: <000501bfaeb8$1d18e710$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> References: <20000424173723.A27099@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: >Anybody out there have the ?LK201? electrical specification? I have a boxfull and offered them to the list for $7 each, which makes converters kind of moot in my mind. LK201 is replaced by a LK401 just fine too AFAIK. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Apr 25 10:38:55 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:04 2005 Subject: KYBD (was: VAXstation 4000VLC) In-Reply-To: <3905A477.21A4D11@rdel.co.uk> from Paul Williams at "Apr 25, 2000 02:58:15 pm" Message-ID: <200004251538.LAA16261@bg-tc-ppp848.monmouth.com> > John Allain wrote: > > > > Anybody out there have the ?LK201? electrical specification? > > http://www.mit.edu/~mcmahill/NetBSD/pmax/LK201/lk201.html > > Basically, terminal supplies 12V. Link is RS423 levels. > > In correspondence with me a long time ago, Dan mentioned making a > convertor box so he could connect a PC keyboard to a VT220, but I don't > know whether he got anywhere. > > If anyone's interested I've got an LK250 (LK201 like keyboard for PC/AT type connector. This works just fine with a PS/2 type machine with a $3 adapter. I'm not using it now (used it for Sedt for a while). $15 plus shipping. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Apr 25 11:10:43 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:04 2005 Subject: Where has everybody gone? In-Reply-To: References: <14597.14599.613421.617785@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000425110846.02097ab0@pc> At 08:31 AM 4/25/00 -0700, Mike Ford wrote: > >I will give up my Amiga only when Bill Gates pries my cold dead fingers from > >around the keyboard and mouse . . . . . Actually, the Amiga community was quite proud of the fact that Microsoft's BASIC was available for the platform. Remember, Windows was only a dim dream at that point. - John From cmcmanis at freegate.com Tue Apr 25 12:02:49 2000 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:05 2005 Subject: PDP-5 Focal Message-ID: <4.1.20000425100029.03b7b220@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Hi John, and anyone else. Does anyone know _where_ I might find a copy of PDP-5 FOCAL? (if it even exists.) The only "software" that came with the machine was in the form of early DEC diagnostic programs to insure that the system was working properly. --Chuck From charp at bitflash.com Tue Apr 25 12:10:34 2000 From: charp at bitflash.com (Frederic Charpentier) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:05 2005 Subject: Where has everybody gone? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003401bfaed9$2ba84ed0$9801a8c0@frederickc> This must be January 2023... At least that's what my Windows NT says... No wonder nobody is around. We're all dead (I think). Frederic -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Mike Ford Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2000 11:32 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Where has everybody gone? >>>> Is anybody out there? >>>> >>>> Frederic Charpentier >>> >>> Didn't you get a notice, the list was purchased by MicroSoft. >> >> That's a *dirty* thing to say, man. >> >> -Dave McGuire >> >Disgusting . . . . but not unlikely! > >I will give up my Amiga only when Bill Gates pries my cold dead fingers from >around the keyboard and mouse . . . . . You didn't get your manditory Windows 2000 upgrade notice either? From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 25 12:12:45 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:05 2005 Subject: VS4000/VLC (again) In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000425173223.0188dae0@kerberos.davies.net.au> References: <4.3.1.2.20000424224330.01f57dc0@208.226.86.10> <000b01bfae2f$d99aa5b0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: Huw Davies wrote: >You'll find that SCSI clustering is restricted to Alphas only. For the >smaller VAX systems it's either ethernet or DSSI. I've got two Alpha's that currently aren't in my cluster, AND a spare Storageworks tray with a couple disks. Right now I'm just doing ethernet clustering. >My own personal experience with DSSI was not altogether exciting. We'd >purchased two 3400 hundreds to replace an 11/785 and an 11/780. The 3400s >never seemed as fast. Eventually, the 3400s were replaced with an ethernet >cluster consisting of a DEC3000-300, an 11/785 and an 11/780 and the old >VAXes were much faster..... Somehow that doesn't surprise me in the least, especially the last. I've got a DEC3000-300LX (the slowest of the -300's) and at some things it feels slower than a VS3100/30. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 25 12:23:14 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:05 2005 Subject: Another VaxStation 3100 revisited... In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000424234932.0138a7d0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: Allison wrote: >I like VMS because it doesn't know what crash is and when you drop an Not quite true. It will crash if you do something *really* stupid. For example if you try to cluster a VAX/VMS V5.5 system in with a OpenVMS V7.2 cluster and then unplug the VAX from the cluster becuase it won't boot, then once you've finished running the commands to de-cluster it and are running the autogen, and you decided to save a couple seconds and just plug the ethernet cable back in, BOOM! Had to go out to the garage and reboot the rest of the cluster that was up at the time. Moral of the story is when the doc's say you can only cluster V6.2-V7.2 they're almost right (IIRC, you can fudge it and cluster in a V6.1 system but not everything will work right). >Ah you got the DECUS freeware CD, great. Wanted one but they ran out of >them. DFWUG sells the Freeware CD V4 for $7 which I believe includes shipping. I've just not gotten around to getting one. >VMS 7.1 has support for TCP/ip, something to help you exploit them PCs. >Also when you do the install leave in DECwindows as you can use that >with an Xterm. I do that with a vt1200, rather nice being able to connect >to any one of 8 Vaxen from one point. Cool, I take it you just tell it which system to connect to? I've got a DECserver 90L+ that lets me do that with a VT420 using LAT. The 90L+ is nice because it's so small, and you can hook several terminals up to it. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue Apr 25 12:33:21 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:05 2005 Subject: PDP-5 Rescued! Message-ID: <200004251733.NAA29656@dbit.dbit.com> >From: "johnb" >Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 03:18:31 -0500 ^^^^^^^^^^ No wonder John B scores all the cool hardware -- he has the ability to go back in time!!! :-) John Wilson D Bit From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 25 12:31:44 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:05 2005 Subject: Where has everybody gone? In-Reply-To: References: <14597.14599.613421.617785@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: >>>>> Is anybody out there? >>>>> >>>>> Frederic Charpentier >>>> >>>> Didn't you get a notice, the list was purchased by MicroSoft. >>> >>> That's a *dirty* thing to say, man. >>> >>> -Dave McGuire >>> >>Disgusting . . . . but not unlikely! >> >>I will give up my Amiga only when Bill Gates pries my cold dead fingers from >>around the keyboard and mouse . . . . . > >You didn't get your manditory Windows 2000 upgrade notice either? It won't run on my Alpha's :^) they've got a *proper* (and supported) upgrade path which looks like this: MS Windows NT V4.0 SP6 ------->+ OpenVMS V7.2 (obviously the preferable) + Tru64 V5.0 + Linux Besides Windows '98 runs fine on my PowerMac G4/450 and does everything I need from Windows. Gotta have that Solitaire game :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Apr 25 12:37:19 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:05 2005 Subject: PDP-5 Focal Message-ID: <20000425173719.20729.qmail@web614.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck McManis wrote: > Hi John, and anyone else. Does anyone know _where_ I might find a copy of > PDP-5 FOCAL? (if it even exists.) The only "software" that came with the > machine was in the form of early DEC diagnostic programs to insure that the > system was working properly. IIRC, FOCAL-69, at least, should support the PDP-5. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 25 13:54:41 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:05 2005 Subject: Another VaxStation 3100 revisited... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Not quite true. It will crash if you do something *really* stupid. For > example if you try to cluster a VAX/VMS V5.5 system in with a OpenVMS V7.2 > cluster and then unplug the VAX from the cluster becuase it won't boot, > then once you've finished running the commands to de-cluster it and are > running the autogen, and you decided to save a couple seconds and just plug > the ethernet cable back in, BOOM! Clinically that is a pathological case. ;) You had to work at it though! > V6.2-V7.2 they're almost right (IIRC, you can fudge it and cluster in a > V6.1 system but not everything will work right). Done by the book it's a but more robust.. But then that was the definition of "supported" VS "it works". > DFWUG sells the Freeware CD V4 for $7 which I believe includes shipping. > I've just not gotten around to getting one. Oh good! > Cool, I take it you just tell it which system to connect to? I've got a > DECserver 90L+ that lets me do that with a VT420 using LAT. The 90L+ is > nice because it's so small, and you can hook several terminals up to it. It's even nicer when I run the 1200 and VT340(multisession over 1 wire. With PCs the networking is more like MS networking, though with APACHE and fileservices going it's nice. Allison From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Apr 25 14:04:46 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:05 2005 Subject: Where has everybody gone? In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Apr 25, 2000 10:31:44 am" Message-ID: <200004251904.PAA76728@bg-tc-ppp848.monmouth.com> > >You didn't get your manditory Windows 2000 upgrade notice either? > > It won't run on my Alpha's :^) they've got a *proper* (and supported) > upgrade path which looks like this: Nah. It'll run just fine on the Alpha. What do you think the main development platform is for the 64 bit version (powepc?). The problem is they won't ship an Alpha version 'cause Compaq won't pay to support MS's development. That's why the PPC version died... IBM and Motorola wouldn't support MS with $$$ so they let the thing die. (A lot of OS/2 PPC version and WinNT PPC version machines went AIX 4.1.3 and Linux at IBM around that time '95 or 96. I got some early boxes to upgrade my AIX desktops that way. > > MS Windows NT V4.0 SP6 ------->+ OpenVMS V7.2 (obviously the preferable) > + Tru64 V5.0 > + Linux sure the last one isn't FreeBSD or NetBSD 8-) > > Besides Windows '98 runs fine on my PowerMac G4/450 and does everything I > need from Windows. Gotta have that Solitaire game :^) > > Zane > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > > -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Apr 25 14:05:37 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:05 2005 Subject: Another VaxStation 3100 revisited... In-Reply-To: <200004250505.WAA13860@shell1.aracnet.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000424234932.0138a7d0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000425150537.00c78920@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that healyzh@aracnet.com may have mentioned these words: >> Well, I've been running DEC equipment now since... Easter. ;-) So I don't > >It's the 1GB drive that always gives me trouble! So, should I not install it? Or does it give you trouble as it's not big enough??? ;-) >It depends on how many layered products you want, and how many 3rd party >programs you want. A RZ25 is actaully fairly roomy. Still I've got my >setup clustered so most of my stuff is on a couple disks. Well, I want to run DECwindows (for my wifey...) and I want to be able to program in Basic & maybe C. [re: MacOS] >I've also found the apps on the Mac to be the most consistent between >programs and even publishers. That's true... most apps for WinBlows are pretty consistant too, tho... as in they consistantly suck... ;-) >Sorry should have been clear, the Hobbyist CD's are two CD's, one VAX, one >Alpha. It really sounds like you've got a fairly recent (since it's got >OpenVMS V7.1) CONDIST. I assume that most of the disks are labled 1 of 10 >and such. I'm also guessing that the Freeware CD is V3. You've got enough >software there to keep you going for *ages*. Erm... not sure what the Version is on the freeware CD, but I can tell you that I have the December 1998 distro of VMS 7.1. Erm... and I got it installed last night!!! ;-) Now all I need to find is a URL for a quickie command reference to find how to do the menial stuff... like change directories and whatnot. From DEC's "cover letter" that was tossed in with my software, I found out how to mount a CDrom (and I did!) but I couldn't find out how to actually access the disk. (Well, I had one of those short 12-hour days, and I was quite tired so after I got VMS installed I only plinked for 5-10 minutes or so before I shut it down.) I do have all the documentation on CDrom, but it doesn't do me a hill o'beans worth if I can't access them! ;-) (I did find the "Show Mem" command, and was suprised on how economical VMS was, and it seemed to give quite a bit of info!) Anyway, thanks again for all the help, and before long there'll be another DEChead floating around the ranks... ;-) (BTW, how long does it take for DECUS to process a basic application?) Thanks again, all! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From bill at chipware.com Tue Apr 25 14:19:50 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:05 2005 Subject: Shugart 851 power problem Message-ID: <000101bfaeeb$39f490e0$350810ac@yamato.chipware.com> Hi, I have a pair of 851s in a nice case with power supply. They are attached to a Cromemco 16FDC in an IMSAI box with a Cromemco ZPU and an Expandoram 64K board. I'm using the ROM enable on the 16FDC to drive the phantom line. There is a reason for these details... Here is the problem: #1 Power up the drives by themselves: At the drives: 5 volt line reads 4.9 -5 volt line reads -4.9 24 volt line reads 23.9 #2 Power up the IMSAI box: At the drives: 5 volt line reads 1.2 -5 volt line reads -0.9 24 volt line reads 2.6 and (needless to say) the drives don't work. The Cromemco ROM monitor gives all sorts of errors trying to access them. #3 Power off the IMSAI box: (Same as #1) #4 Power on the IMSAI box again: At the drives: 5 volt line reads 5.0 -5 volt line reads -5.0 24 volt line reads 24.0 and the drives work fine. What gives? Does this make sense to anybody out there? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Apr 25 14:17:52 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:05 2005 Subject: Another VaxStation 3100 revisited... In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Apr 25, 2000 10:23:14 am" Message-ID: <200004251917.PAA76780@bg-tc-ppp848.monmouth.com> > Allison wrote: > >I like VMS because it doesn't know what crash is and when you drop an > > Not quite true. It will crash if you do something *really* stupid. For > example if you try to cluster a VAX/VMS V5.5 system in with a OpenVMS V7.2 > cluster and then unplug the VAX from the cluster becuase it won't boot, > then once you've finished running the commands to de-cluster it and are > running the autogen, and you decided to save a couple seconds and just plug > the ethernet cable back in, BOOM! > > Zane > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | Any other oldtimers remember the 2.x glitch (or was it 3.x) where putting a TU77 offline and manually rewinding it would MWAIT the driver or occasionally bugcheck the whole machine and force a reboot... I once did it with a TU77 which dropped vacuum in mid-real and the FBI wasn't happy about not being able to use the Tape massbuss for backups. Took an hour or two of fiddling around with the diag supervisor and the machine while live -- but somehow I managed to get the damn thing to come unstuck... I assume it was the diags kicking bits around in the tape or TM03 -- but I've never been able to figure how I saved getting nailed for a reboot at the FBI. I also was supposed to PM the box the day Reagan got shot, but that was cancelled on me for obvious reasons. I cleaned the tape heads, read errlog and left. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From bill at chipware.com Tue Apr 25 14:30:25 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:05 2005 Subject: Shugart 851 power problem In-Reply-To: <000101bfaeeb$39f490e0$350810ac@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <000201bfaeec$b47b7d50$350810ac@yamato.chipware.com> By the way... Using the exact same hardware, but replacing the 851s with a pair of TM-100s and an old PC power supply works fine, regardless of who is powered on first. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 25 14:43:15 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:05 2005 Subject: Another VaxStation 3100 revisited... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000425150537.00c78920@mail.30below.com> References: <200004250505.WAA13860@shell1.aracnet.com> <3.0.1.32.20000424234932.0138a7d0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: >Rumor has it that healyzh@aracnet.com may have mentioned these words: >>> Well, I've been running DEC equipment now since... Easter. ;-) So I don't >> >>It's the 1GB drive that always gives me trouble! > >So, should I not install it? Or does it give you trouble as it's not big >enough??? ;-) Argh, I'm being unclear again and confusing people. Sorry about that. By trouble I meant remembering what the proper designation for the drive is, not that I have problems with them. I say install it. >Erm... not sure what the Version is on the freeware CD, but I can tell you >that I have the December 1998 distro of VMS 7.1. Erm... and I got it >installed last night!!! ;-) Foggy brain on my part, but I think it's V3, as I believe V4 was released with OpenVMS V7.2 >Now all I need to find is a URL for a quickie command reference to find how >to do the menial stuff... like change directories and whatnot. From DEC's Here is some quick stuff: set default dka300:[000000] <----the 'root' of the disk dka300: set default [-] <----back one directory set default [.somedir] <----move into the somedir dir located under current dir set default [bin] <----move to bin dir located under root of current disk help <----Help dir <----directory Sounds like what you really want is to hit a used bookstore and find a book on using OpenVMS. >I do have all the documentation on CDrom, but it doesn't do me a hill >o'beans worth if I can't access them! ;-) Yeh, need DECwindows running. >(I did find the "Show Mem" command, and was suprised on how economical VMS >was, and it seemed to give quite a bit of info!) I know, I"m always amazed by what it can do on a VAX. >Anyway, thanks again for all the help, and before long there'll be another >DEChead floating around the ranks... ;-) Good, the more the better! >(BTW, how long does it take for DECUS to process a basic application?) No idea. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From elvey at hal.com Tue Apr 25 14:46:16 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:05 2005 Subject: Shugart 851 power problem In-Reply-To: <000101bfaeeb$39f490e0$350810ac@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <200004251946.MAA05650@civic.hal.com> "Bill Sudbrink" wrote: > Hi, > > I have a pair of 851s in a nice case with power supply. > They are attached to a Cromemco 16FDC in an IMSAI box > with a Cromemco ZPU and an Expandoram 64K board. I'm > using the ROM enable on the 16FDC to drive the phantom > line. There is a reason for these details... > > Here is the problem: > > #1 Power up the drives by themselves: > At the drives: > 5 volt line reads 4.9 > -5 volt line reads -4.9 > 24 volt line reads 23.9 > > #2 Power up the IMSAI box: > At the drives: > 5 volt line reads 1.2 > -5 volt line reads -0.9 > 24 volt line reads 2.6 > and (needless to say) the drives don't work. The Cromemco > ROM monitor gives all sorts of errors trying to access them. > > #3 Power off the IMSAI box: > (Same as #1) > > #4 Power on the IMSAI box again: > At the drives: > 5 volt line reads 5.0 > -5 volt line reads -5.0 > 24 volt line reads 24.0 > and the drives work fine. > > What gives? Does this make sense to anybody out there? Hi Bill I've seen latch up problems with data busses being active before the drivers power came on in some old printers. I don't think this is your problem. I would more likely suspect a problem with the power supply. In different states, the drive draws different amounts of current on this line. I suspect you'll find that there is a problem with current or a bad filter capacitor in the supply. Try running the supply without the drives with a varying load. If it is the supply this should show it. Dwight From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 25 14:49:14 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:05 2005 Subject: Where has everybody gone? In-Reply-To: <200004251904.PAA76728@bg-tc-ppp848.monmouth.com> References: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Apr 25, 2000 10:31:44 am" Message-ID: Bill Pechter wrote: >> MS Windows NT V4.0 SP6 ------->+ OpenVMS V7.2 (obviously the preferable) >> + Tru64 V5.0 >> + Linux > >sure the last one isn't FreeBSD or NetBSD 8-) Yeh, look at the Compaq web site, those OS's don't exist (yes, I know that they do really exist). I don't run Linux on any of mine, but do have OpenBSD running 24/7 on one, and have Tru64 and NetBSD on disks for a second (though never really did anymore than boot either of these disks, as the system runs OpenVMS). Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Apr 25 15:04:02 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:05 2005 Subject: Where has everybody gone? In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Apr 25, 2000 12:49:14 pm" Message-ID: <200004252004.QAA76934@bg-tc-ppp848.monmouth.com> > Bill Pechter wrote: > >> MS Windows NT V4.0 SP6 ------->+ OpenVMS V7.2 (obviously the preferable) > >> + Tru64 V5.0 > >> + Linux > > > >sure the last one isn't FreeBSD or NetBSD 8-) > > Yeh, look at the Compaq web site, those OS's don't exist (yes, I know that > they do really exist). I don't run Linux on any of mine, but do have > OpenBSD running 24/7 on one, and have Tru64 and NetBSD on disks for a > second (though never really did anymore than boot either of these disks, as > the system runs OpenVMS). Considering Compaq's been doing a developer test drive of Alpha's with FreeBSD on the web... It's just Linux at Compaq (like IBM) is now one of those supported OS's they'll sell you... Unlike FreeBSD (for now). At IBM they'll sell one of three Linux varients on their boxes (and they use FreeBSD for the Interjets from Whistle). Bill From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 25 12:50:08 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:05 2005 Subject: PDP-5 Rescued! In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000424224911.00ce6100@208.226.86.10> from "Chuck McManis" at Apr 24, 0 10:50:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 615 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000425/8ff9353d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 25 13:00:34 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:05 2005 Subject: Identify this LSI-11 floppy controller In-Reply-To: <200004250249.CAA03932@thorin.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Apr 25, 0 02:49:26 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 936 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000425/41362379/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 25 12:56:55 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:05 2005 Subject: KYBD (was: VAXstation 4000VLC) In-Reply-To: <000501bfaeb8$1d18e710$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> from "John Allain" at Apr 25, 0 09:13:56 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 861 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000425/f37e19ee/attachment.ksh From elvey at hal.com Tue Apr 25 15:10:37 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:05 2005 Subject: PDP-5 Rescued! In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000424201435.025574e0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <200004252010.NAA05966@civic.hal.com> Chuck McManis wrote: > This didn't seem to make it out the first time, so here goes a second. > > I managed to rescue the PDP-5 that I've "owned" for some time now, but it > was stuck in a far away city. Anyhoo, I've put up the obligatory pictures > at for anyone who cares > to take a peek at it. This uses "DEC System Modules" the pre-cursor to the > DEC Flip Chip technology. It hasn't been powered on in 15 years so I'll be > a bit cautious getting the caps warmed up in the PSU. -15V transistor > logic, wild stuff! > > --Chuck Hi Chuck If I was worried about the capacitors, I'd disconnect them and use a bench supply with a nice current limiting resistor. I would think a step rate of 5% of working voltage every 1/2 hour would be safe. Put a volt meter across the resistor. Any significant large voltage drop would indicate leakage. These large caps are known to have some leakage. How much is OK, I don't know. That is something you'll have to make a judgment call on. I would think that for large caps like I see in the pictures, 1/32 watt is on the large size for DC power. Don't forget the smaller electrolytics in the circuits of the supply. Do a value check on these. I usually lift one lead and use an ohm meter. Comparable values should take the same time to charge. You might want to connect these to a setup like used on the large ones. If they respond as having low capacitance on the ohm meter, you'll most likely have to replace them, forming won't help. While you are fiddling with the supply, you might also add some new heat sink grease under power transistors. The silicon oil in this grease does eventually go away. It is easiest if the transistors are socketed. I don't recommend the slow power on for the entire unit. Many circuits will draw higher current until full up to voltage. If you want to do a slow power up and the supply is a linear, disconnect the load and just bring up the supply. If it is a switcher, you may damage it with a brown out. Most linears can handle it. Watch for any signs of smoke or popping sounds. These are almost always bad news. At one of the meetings at Stan's, one of the fellows, I don't remember who, had three tantalums blow. These were all power line input filters on boards. After we removed them, the unit worked fine. If we'd left the power on, these would have burned the boards. Dwight From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Apr 25 15:20:41 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:05 2005 Subject: Shugart 851 power problem Message-ID: <000425162041.202005d4@trailing-edge.com> >#2 Power up the IMSAI box: >At the drives: > 5 volt line reads 1.2 > -5 volt line reads -0.9 > 24 volt line reads 2.6 >and (needless to say) the drives don't work. The Cromemco >ROM monitor gives all sorts of errors trying to access them. >... >[And other times when you power it on things are fine] >... >What gives? Does this make sense to anybody out there? It looks to me like one or more of the stepper motor phases are shorted (or their drivers are shorted) by garbage signals that come over the 50-pin Shugart interface from the IMSAI when it's powered on. Garbage signals are a fact of life, and the circuitry on the drives shouldn't respond in such an awful way to them. Two things to do: 1. Ohm out the stepper motors looking for shorted phases. 2. Check the driver transistors on the 851's. If any are hot when the problem occurs, it's almost certainly related. It's not impossible that the circuitry that drives the driver transistors is screwed up, too. It wouldn't surprise me if the foldback protection in your floppy power supply folds all the outputs back simultaneously. This certainly seems likely based on the voltages you see. If you can unhook the 24V output from the power supply (this is what runs the stepper motors) and try again, this might be useful. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 25 15:25:07 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:05 2005 Subject: Shugart 851 power problem References: <000101bfaeeb$39f490e0$350810ac@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <001101bfaef4$59fd77e0$0400c0a8@winbook> It seems to me that the problem involves the two power supplies, and probably not any of the S-100 hardware. If the enclosures are connected with a substantial protective ground, that's probably OK if the protective ground subsequently goes to a genuine "earth" ground. If you examine the ground lines on the FD cable, and there are plenty of them, they should all be connected to your system ground at both ends and bypassed/AC-coupled to frame ground. If your drives have signal and frame ground connected together yet not connected together at the FDC, i.e. in the Imsai box, that could be contributing to the problem. If I were in your position, I'd hook the 'scope up to the ground line with the reference ground at the S-100 bus, not at its power supply. Then you will probably see an oscillation. If that's the case, disconnect the drives and any of your S-100 hardware from frame ground, paying particular attention to the serial I/O boards, where it's common to connect pins 1 and 7 of the DB25's together. If you don't want to interrupt that connection, replacing it with a 0.1uF bypass cap, then I'd recommend you connect all your supply grounds to frame, using a 1"-wide copper braid, and connect that braid to a ground like a water pipe. If you have plastic plumbing, tear it all out and replace it with iron (snicker!), otherwise use a gas pipe or some other adequate ground attached with a really low-impedance connection. Since your ground isn't a single point, you need a really low resistance between them all. That's why it's actually better to isolate frame and power supply (signal) ground. The comparison with the TM-100's doesn't really show anything because it uses a different supply, not to mention that it uses a small fraction of the current. There's probably just a single ground line floating somewhere between the drives and their supply ground. It may come up stabile enough, but suddenly jump into oscillation as soon as a surge occurs on the +24 Vdc supply. When you hook the 'scope up, look at it while the system tries to move the heads. If the regulators for the FDD's remain solid, it's got to be the connection between the FDD box and the Imsai box. If not, then look for inadequate grounding or inadequate bypass at the regulator. This is particularly critical if you have a pass-transistor regulator, since there's a phase shift there that often causes oscillation. There should be a solid frame ground, though both supplies should be connected to the "earth" ground at their frames regardless of whether they're well connected to one another. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Sudbrink To: Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2000 1:19 PM Subject: Shugart 851 power problem > Hi, > > I have a pair of 851s in a nice case with power supply. > They are attached to a Cromemco 16FDC in an IMSAI box > with a Cromemco ZPU and an Expandoram 64K board. I'm > using the ROM enable on the 16FDC to drive the phantom > line. There is a reason for these details... > > Here is the problem: > > #1 Power up the drives by themselves: > At the drives: > 5 volt line reads 4.9 > -5 volt line reads -4.9 > 24 volt line reads 23.9 > > #2 Power up the IMSAI box: > At the drives: > 5 volt line reads 1.2 > -5 volt line reads -0.9 > 24 volt line reads 2.6 > and (needless to say) the drives don't work. The Cromemco > ROM monitor gives all sorts of errors trying to access them. > > #3 Power off the IMSAI box: > (Same as #1) > > #4 Power on the IMSAI box again: > At the drives: > 5 volt line reads 5.0 > -5 volt line reads -5.0 > 24 volt line reads 24.0 > and the drives work fine. > > What gives? Does this make sense to anybody out there? > From charp at bitflash.com Tue Apr 25 15:56:01 2000 From: charp at bitflash.com (Frederic Charpentier) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:05 2005 Subject: Altair 680 software Message-ID: <000001bfaef8$aaa892c0$9801a8c0@frederickc> Hi, Does someone have a copy of the old paper tapes containing the resident editor/assembler and/or the Basic interpreter for the Altair 680? Both were bundled with the 16K memory boards. Thanks in advance, Frederic From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 25 15:21:15 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:05 2005 Subject: Shugart 851 power problem In-Reply-To: <000101bfaeeb$39f490e0$350810ac@yamato.chipware.com> from "Bill Sudbrink" at Apr 25, 0 03:19:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2430 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000425/3ec4d9a3/attachment.ksh From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Tue Apr 25 16:30:50 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:05 2005 Subject: Netscape on Solaris 2.4 In-Reply-To: <20000424055347Z433882-25881+6@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <000201bfaefd$8781c190$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> > # ./netscape > xlib: connection to ":0.0" refused by server > xlib: Client is not authorized to connect to Server > Error: Can't open display: :0.0 There is an X auth command call IIRC 'xhost' that dis/allows connections like that. 'xhost +' typically cleared up tyhose type of things but watch it since that allows all. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Apr 25 16:55:23 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:05 2005 Subject: The DEC M9060 board Message-ID: <4.1.20000425144748.00ac3140@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> The visual field guide lists it as ??? many other field guides don't list it at all. It was the answer to question I didn't know to ask. Its a friggin' dummy load! If you happen to come across a DEC "skunk box" also know as the BA213 chassis which was home to MicroVAX 3300 - 3900's and some DEC System 5500's, you'll notice it has two power supplies (one on the left and one on the right). I was restoring a MicroVAX 3400 and thought it had a "bad" power supply. As it turned out, without sufficient load these power supplys will not "light up." So to fix that on the 3400 I plugged a Fujitsu SCSI drive (known power hog :-) on to the disk connector and voila, the thing worked. So I've been looking at a couple of 3400's that were used as a cluster and both of them had M9060 boards installed in the last slot. These boards provide sufficent load on the supplies to get them to both turn on. _Very_ handy gizmos. Moral of the story, if you think you have a "bad" BA213 chassis, try loading up the power supply a bit, and if that works, find one of these boards and plug it into the last slot! Another of lifes little mysteries solved. --Chuck From sipke at wxs.nl Tue Apr 25 17:56:03 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:05 2005 Subject: OT: Jagermeister [was: Re: VCF Europa & My Appearance at Oxford] References: <200004251108.e3PB88a12048@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <009b01bfaf09$6f049140$030101ac@boll.casema.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: Hans Franke To: Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2000 2:07 PM Subject: Re: OT: Jagermeister [was: Re: VCF Europa & My Appearance at Oxford] > > And for the basics, Jaegermeister is supposed to be a > Magenbitter, a kind of drink after a big meal to help > your stomach work ... There are a lot of other brands > around. > In Holland (Friesland) we have Beerenburg wich is not to sweet. Or try Fernet Branca (That the italian version of Jaegermeister) and for real man and real ulcers only .......... Sipke From sipke at wxs.nl Tue Apr 25 18:19:33 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:05 2005 Subject: PDP-5 Rescued! References: <200004252010.NAA05966@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <00ee01bfaf0c$b999dc80$030101ac@boll.casema.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: Dwight Elvey To: Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2000 10:10 PM Subject: Re: PDP-5 Rescued! > Chuck McManis wrote: > > This didn't seem to make it out the first time, so here goes a second. > > > > I managed to rescue the PDP-5 that I've "owned" for some time now, but it > > was stuck in a far away city. Anyhoo, I've put up the obligatory pictures > > at for anyone who cares > > to take a peek at it. This uses "DEC System Modules" the pre-cursor to the > > DEC Flip Chip technology. It hasn't been powered on in 15 years so I'll be > > a bit cautious getting the caps warmed up in the PSU. -15V transistor > > logic, wild stuff! > > > > --Chuck > > Hi Chuck > If I was worried about the capacitors, I'd disconnect them and > use a bench supply with a nice current limiting resistor. I > would think a step rate of 5% of working voltage every 1/2 > hour would be safe. Put a volt meter across the resistor. > Any significant large voltage drop would indicate leakage. > These large caps are known to have some leakage. How much > is OK, I don't know. That is something you'll have to make > a judgment call on. I would think that for large caps like > I see in the pictures, 1/32 watt is on the large size for > DC power. > Even if they turn out to be a bit leaky keep them under a moderate voltage and they may repair themself. The electrolyte will react with the bare aluminium and reform an oxide dielecticum that will fix things. Gradually increase the voltage to the nominal voltage of the elco minus 10%. I've even seen valve-tube guys put a short burst of very high voltage on a defect elco to fix them but that was with the real liquid type elco ps: don't ever try this with tantalium type elco's, You'll propably have to scratch them from your face! Sipke From donm at cts.com Tue Apr 25 17:44:27 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:05 2005 Subject: Shugart 851 power problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Apr 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > I have a pair of 851s in a nice case with power supply. > > One detail you've omitted : What sort of power supply is it (linear or > switcher)? The reason I ask is that with most linear supplies, a short on > one output will not turn off the other outputs, while with most switchers > a short on any output will shut the entire supply down (there are > exceptions to _both_ of those 'rules' though...). It seems like it must be a switcher, Tony, as the 851s do not use -5v power. - don > > They are attached to a Cromemco 16FDC in an IMSAI box > > with a Cromemco ZPU and an Expandoram 64K board. I'm > > using the ROM enable on the 16FDC to drive the phantom > > line. There is a reason for these details... > > > > Here is the problem: > > > > #1 Power up the drives by themselves: > > At the drives: > > 5 volt line reads 4.9 > > -5 volt line reads -4.9 > > 24 volt line reads 23.9 > > > > #2 Power up the IMSAI box: > > At the drives: > > 5 volt line reads 1.2 > > -5 volt line reads -0.9 > > 24 volt line reads 2.6 > > and (needless to say) the drives don't work. The Cromemco > > ROM monitor gives all sorts of errors trying to access them. > > This looks like a classic case of 'latch up'. You may know about a > component called a thyristor/SCR, a 4 layer semiconductor device with 3 > connections (anode, cathode, gate) that once turned on by applying a > current to the gate connection will then stay turned on until the current > through the anode connection drops below a certain (low) value. > > Well, it turns out that it's hard to avoid making these when making > integrated circuits. You don't want them, but they're there. Normally > they do no harm, but sometimes if a pin on a chip is pulled past the > supply rail they turn on and short out said supply rails. > > And you could be doing just that. Signals on the controller cable from > the S100 box could be latching up chips in the drives. Thus shutting down > the drive's PSU. > > What I don't understand, though, is why correctly-powered drives do this > when a powered-down controller is turned on. I could understand if drives > connected to a powered-up controller would refuse to turn on. Nor can I > understand why turning off the controller and turning it on again makes > any difference. > > > > > > > #3 Power off the IMSAI box: > > (Same as #1) > > > > #4 Power on the IMSAI box again: > > At the drives: > > 5 volt line reads 5.0 > > -5 volt line reads -5.0 > > 24 volt line reads 24.0 > > and the drives work fine. > > > > What gives? Does this make sense to anybody out there? > > > > > > -tony > > From dogas at leading.net Tue Apr 25 17:16:30 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:05 2005 Subject: New COSMAC stiff amd a VaxStation offer Message-ID: <002501bfaf04$13749280$ca646464@dogclient01> Wow. UPS just delivered and opening the boxes was better than sex. Newly aquired: a complete COSMAC Development System IV. Check out: http://users.leading.net/~dogas/classiccmp/cosmac/cosmac.htm Included with the pile were also about 65 original RCA documents covering Cosmac systems and options (that are listed in the above URL.) If anyone needs any related into looked up or copied... And... I've now driven approx. 500 miles and spent alot of time diging for parts to get my VaxStation 3100 running (unsuccessfully.) I have other toys screaming for my time (reference above) so I therefore propose this trade: All I want is a harddrive with VMS( and DECwindows ) and a C compiler that I can just install in my machine to plug and play. In exchange for this pre-loaded harddrive, I'll trade an internal DEC CD-ROM (and controller card for the 3100,) an internal DEC TZ30, an external RRD40 CD-ROM, and 2 VaxStation 3100's for parts. Hell, I'll through in a BA11-KE crate (minus the power supply) if you want one too.... Thanks - Mike: dogas@leading.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000425/d43008f6/attachment.html From edick at idcomm.com Tue Apr 25 18:37:30 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:05 2005 Subject: Shugart 851 power problem References: Message-ID: <003b01bfaf0f$39ea7460$0400c0a8@winbook> Don's observation is an astute one, since a linear supply doesn't generally allow both positive and negative supplies to interact. Unless this is a MAJOR ground loop thing, we're probably looking at a switcher. Has anybody tried powering on the drives AFTER the IMSAI box is in steady-state? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Maslin To: Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2000 4:44 PM Subject: Re: Shugart 851 power problem > > > On Tue, 25 Apr 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I have a pair of 851s in a nice case with power supply. > > > > One detail you've omitted : What sort of power supply is it (linear or > > switcher)? The reason I ask is that with most linear supplies, a short on > > one output will not turn off the other outputs, while with most switchers > > a short on any output will shut the entire supply down (there are > > exceptions to _both_ of those 'rules' though...). > > It seems like it must be a switcher, Tony, as the 851s do not use -5v power. > > - don > > > > They are attached to a Cromemco 16FDC in an IMSAI box > > > with a Cromemco ZPU and an Expandoram 64K board. I'm > > > using the ROM enable on the 16FDC to drive the phantom > > > line. There is a reason for these details... > > > > > > Here is the problem: > > > > > > #1 Power up the drives by themselves: > > > At the drives: > > > 5 volt line reads 4.9 > > > -5 volt line reads -4.9 > > > 24 volt line reads 23.9 > > > > > > #2 Power up the IMSAI box: > > > At the drives: > > > 5 volt line reads 1.2 > > > -5 volt line reads -0.9 > > > 24 volt line reads 2.6 > > > and (needless to say) the drives don't work. The Cromemco > > > ROM monitor gives all sorts of errors trying to access them. > > > > This looks like a classic case of 'latch up'. You may know about a > > component called a thyristor/SCR, a 4 layer semiconductor device with 3 > > connections (anode, cathode, gate) that once turned on by applying a > > current to the gate connection will then stay turned on until the current > > through the anode connection drops below a certain (low) value. > > > > Well, it turns out that it's hard to avoid making these when making > > integrated circuits. You don't want them, but they're there. Normally > > they do no harm, but sometimes if a pin on a chip is pulled past the > > supply rail they turn on and short out said supply rails. > > > > And you could be doing just that. Signals on the controller cable from > > the S100 box could be latching up chips in the drives. Thus shutting down > > the drive's PSU. > > > > What I don't understand, though, is why correctly-powered drives do this > > when a powered-down controller is turned on. I could understand if drives > > connected to a powered-up controller would refuse to turn on. Nor can I > > understand why turning off the controller and turning it on again makes > > any difference. > > > > > > > > > > > > #3 Power off the IMSAI box: > > > (Same as #1) > > > > > > #4 Power on the IMSAI box again: > > > At the drives: > > > 5 volt line reads 5.0 > > > -5 volt line reads -5.0 > > > 24 volt line reads 24.0 > > > and the drives work fine. > > > > > > What gives? Does this make sense to anybody out there? > > > > > > > > > > -tony > > > > > From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue Apr 25 18:49:09 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:05 2005 Subject: PDP flip-chips In-Reply-To: from William Donzelli at "Apr 25, 2000 03:07:59 pm" Message-ID: <200004252349.SAA09715@caesar.cs.umn.edu> I have a lot of M (Maroon) flip chips, with IC's on them. I have a fair number of G (Green) flip chips with transistor logic, and I have only a few of the types you mention below: R002 Diode Cluster 2 flip chips R107 Inverter 2 flip chips R111 Diode Gate 2 flip chips R602 Pulse Amp 2 flip chips B134 Diode Gate 4 flip chips B152 ? 2 flip chips B683 50 Ohm Or Bus Driver 6 flip chips -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu > What kind of FlipChips? I need the older ones (R, S, B, W) for a gutted > LINC-8. I have some PDP-8/e stuff left, if that interests you. > > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org > From vaxman at uswest.net Tue Apr 25 19:45:37 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:05 2005 Subject: KYBD (was: VAXstation 4000VLC) In-Reply-To: <000501bfaeb8$1d18e710$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: Try the following url: http://www.mit.edu/~mcmahill/NetBSD/pmax/LK201/lk201.html Email me OL if this doesn't work... I copied it by hand from my browser machine. clint On Tue, 25 Apr 2000, John Allain wrote: > > Anybody out there have the ?LK201? electrical specification? > > John A. > > > > > On Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 04:58:31PM -0400, John Allain wrote: > >> But I'm busy and lazy and was wondering if anybody out there > >> ever saw someone _Sell_ keyboard converters that do this? > > On Mon, Apr 24, 2000 at 5:37 PM, John Wilson (D Bit) wrote: > > I haven't seen any, do you think anyone would buy them if they existed? > > Might be kind of a fun project. And yeah, 98.5% software and 1.5% > hardware > > sounds like a perfect fit, anyway if you build them I'll sure buy one. > > > From whdawson at mlynk.com Tue Apr 25 19:59:07 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:05 2005 Subject: VAX FORTRAN RX50 disks, need a new home. Message-ID: <000201bfaf1a$9ff04f40$5ee3dfd0@cobweb.net> I found these 3 disks in my storage area. I haven't a clue as to where they came from. They are in a plastic DIGITAL diskette storage case and appear to have never been used. The first $5.00 takes them, shipping included. Please email me off list if you are interested. I'll post to the list when they are spoken for. Also, if I don't reply to your email message, it means someone got there ahead of you and they've already been nabbed. I'm totally VAX ignorant, so I'm just going to list what's on the diskette labels: BL-CJ52H-BE 091880 VAX FORTRAN V4.6 BIN RX50 1/2 FORT046 FORT01 BL-CJ53H-BE 091881 VAX FORTRAN V4.6 BIN RX50 2/2 FORT046 FORT02 BL-CJ54-BE 091882 VAX FORTRAN V4.6 BIN RX50 1/1 FHLP046 FHLP01 Bill Dawson whdawson@mlynk.com ? From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Apr 25 20:36:09 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:05 2005 Subject: PDP flip-chips In-Reply-To: <200004252349.SAA09715@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: > I have a lot of M (Maroon) flip chips, with IC's on them. I have a fair > number of G (Green) flip chips with transistor logic, and I have only > a few of the types you mention below: > > R002 Diode Cluster 2 flip chips > R107 Inverter 2 flip chips > R111 Diode Gate 2 flip chips > R602 Pulse Amp 2 flip chips > > B134 Diode Gate 4 flip chips > B152 ? 2 flip chips > B683 50 Ohm Or Bus Driver 6 flip chips Well, it is very likely I need them all, but the LINC-8 printset is at RCS/RI, for our real machine. I have bucketloads of later FlipChips (M series, some later G series) that I don't really need, but I guess you don't really need them either. I also have a stack of system modules - I should see if that PDP-5 guy needs any (and should probably check to see if I need any for my machines). William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From at258 at osfn.org Tue Apr 25 21:40:30 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:06 2005 Subject: Hunting In-Reply-To: <002a01bbfd14$96651200$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: Today we received a donation of a lot of odds and ends, but a nice Wang VS-15 with some very large archiver chassis, a 2593 cabinet and boxes of manuals, especially for PACE. Also a Televideo server, PM-N4? or similar number and a Televideo terminal. A number of derelict PC's, mostly good for parts, etc. Next month we go to Canada to get a Burroughs system. From cube1 at home.com Tue Apr 25 21:45:17 2000 From: cube1 at home.com (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:06 2005 Subject: PDP-5 Rescued! In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000424201435.025574e0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <4.3.2.20000425214504.00b8ff00@cirithi> Thought you might find this interesting. Jay At 08:17 PM 4/24/00 -0700, you wrote: >This didn't seem to make it out the first time, so here goes a second. > >I managed to rescue the PDP-5 that I've "owned" for some time now, but it >was stuck in a far away city. Anyhoo, I've put up the obligatory pictures >at for anyone who cares >to take a peek at it. This uses "DEC System Modules" the pre-cursor to the >DEC Flip Chip technology. It hasn't been powered on in 15 years so I'll be >a bit cautious getting the caps warmed up in the PSU. -15V transistor >logic, wild stuff! > >--Chuck --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection cube1@home.com visit http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection From cube1 at home.com Tue Apr 25 21:49:44 2000 From: cube1 at home.com (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:06 2005 Subject: PDP-12s (Re: PDP-5 Rescued!) In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.1.2.20000424224911.00ce6100@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <4.3.2.20000425214712.00b6e4a0@cirithi> Now, now. I have one. At one point it was working almost perfectly. I had to fix one board and figure out a terminal interface for it, until I got lucky later and scored a current-loop interface board. I had to reform the capacitors in the power supply at one point, after blowing out the big bridge rectifier. I don't see that it would be worse (or better) than anything else of that vintage. At one point it was working just fine. Currently it is mostly working, but will not boot -- but I don't have time to fix it right now. Jay Jaeger At 06:50 PM 4/25/00 +0100, you wrote: > > > > At 09:06 PM 4/24/00 -0700, Kird Davis wrote: > > >I suppose this means you don't want your PDP8's now. Right? > > > > Au Contraire mon ami! It means now I need a PDP-12 to put the whole > family > > together :-) Not that its all that likely that I'll find a -12. Still > >Well, if ever you do manage to find one, I have all the prints, >engineering drwings, module schematics, etc for the PDP12/TU55/VR12. No, >I am not giving them up, but if anyone is crazy [1] enough to attempt a >restoration on one of these machines then I'd be happy to look things up, >etc. > >[1] Being crazy is a Good Thing, of course. > >-tony --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection cube1@home.com visit http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection From cube1 at home.com Tue Apr 25 21:44:47 2000 From: cube1 at home.com (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:06 2005 Subject: IBM 3725 In Central Illinois In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.20000425214335.00b8bf00@cirithi> But it is indeed a computer in its own right -- though a rather odd sort of beast. Jay At 08:20 AM 4/24/00 -0500, you wrote: >It's a communications controller for an IBM mainframe computer. > >You hooked it up to your mainframe, put another comm controller on the other >end of a leased line, and you could have terminals/printers etc. hooked up >to a remote location. > >-Bob > > >>List, >> >> There is an IBM 3725 available in Champaign/Urbana Illinois at a local >>scrapper. >> >> It is large, blue, and runs on three phase (as far as I could tell). >> >> Please let me know if anyone is interested in saving it. No docs, no >>media, no nothing... Just a large heavy blue computer. I certainly have >>neither the space nor the juice to house this beast. >> >> I'm also quite interested in what it is. >> >> Thanks for your replies, and please email if you have an interest in >>the system. >> >> >> - Dan Linder / dlinder@uiuc.edu / upside@mcs.net - >> - Riot sounds start riots. / keep talking... - > >Bob Brown >Saved by grace >Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection cube1@home.com visit http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection From whdawson at mlynk.com Tue Apr 25 22:12:03 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:06 2005 Subject: VAX FORTRAN RX50 disks, need a new home. In-Reply-To: <000201bfaf1a$9ff04f40$5ee3dfd0@cobweb.net> Message-ID: <000001bfaf2d$31f21100$21e3dfd0@cobweb.net> OK. They're spoken for. No more emails. OK? Thanks all. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Bill Dawson -> Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2000 8:59 PM -> To: Classiccmp@Classiccmp. Org -> Subject: VAX FORTRAN RX50 disks, need a new home. -> -> -> I found these 3 disks in my storage area. I haven't a clue as -> to where they -> came from. They are in a plastic DIGITAL diskette storage case -> and appear -> to have never been used. The first $5.00 takes them, shipping included. -> Please email me off list if you are interested. I'll post to -> the list when -> they are spoken for. Also, if I don't reply to your email -> message, it means -> someone got there ahead of you and they've already been nabbed. -> -> I'm totally VAX ignorant, so I'm just going to list what's on -> the diskette -> labels: -> -> BL-CJ52H-BE 091880 -> VAX FORTRAN V4.6 BIN RX50 1/2 -> FORT046 FORT01 -> -> BL-CJ53H-BE 091881 -> VAX FORTRAN V4.6 BIN RX50 2/2 -> FORT046 FORT02 -> -> BL-CJ54-BE 091882 -> VAX FORTRAN V4.6 BIN RX50 1/1 -> FHLP046 FHLP01 -> -> Bill Dawson -> whdawson@mlynk.com -> ? -> From foxnhare at jps.net Tue Apr 25 22:33:13 2000 From: foxnhare at jps.net (Larry Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:06 2005 Subject: Where has everybody gone? References: <200004252107.QAA96584@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3906636C.60076F7E@jps.net> > Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 08:31:33 -0700 > From: Mike Ford > Subject: Re: Where has everybody gone? > > >>>> Is anybody out there? > >>>> > >>>> Frederic Charpentier > >>> > >>> Didn't you get a notice, the list was purchased by MicroSoft. > >> > >> That's a *dirty* thing to say, man. > >> > >> -Dave McGuire > >> > >Disgusting . . . . but not unlikely! > > > >I will give up my Amiga only when Bill Gates pries my cold dead fingers from > >around the keyboard and mouse . . . . . > > You didn't get your manditory Windows 2000 upgrade notice either? Yep, starting 'real soon now' the list will be sent in Word 2000 format. Better upgrade! I myself have been busy hopping up my Commodore 64 BBS with a 14.4k modem interface and Super CPU 20 Mghz accellerator (still got a way to go...) -- 01000011 01001111 01001101 01001101 01001111 01000100 01001111 01010010 01000101 Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (209) 754-1363 300-2400 bps Commodore 8-bit page at: http://www.jps.net/foxnhare/commodore.html 01000011 01001111 01001101 01010000 01010101 01010100 01000101 01010010 01010011 From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Apr 25 21:28:38 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:06 2005 Subject: PDP flip-chips Message-ID: <005e01bfaf27$38d67f70$7264c0d0@ajp166> >I have bucketloads of later FlipChips (M series, some later G series) >that I don't really need, but I guess you don't really need them either. >I also have a stack of system modules - I should see if that PDP-5 guy >needs any (and should probably check to see if I need any for my machines). If not that it would be fun to take a handful wire them up to something trivial but operational, say a counter or pseudo random number generator. Allison From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Apr 26 01:33:27 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:06 2005 Subject: Rubber rejuvination In-Reply-To: References: <000501bfaeb8$1d18e710$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> <20000424173723.A27099@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: Any opinions on this rubber restorer? http://www.techspray.com/1612info.htm From wrm at ccii.co.za Wed Apr 26 06:16:49 2000 From: wrm at ccii.co.za (Wouter de Waal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:06 2005 Subject: Apple A/D + D/A Message-ID: <200004261116.NAA31973@ccii.co.za> Hi all I scrounged a Mountain Computer Inc A/D + D/A card, Apple ][ form factor. No manual, no software :-( Preliminary inspection: R8, R11, R15 and R22 are missing (I assume these are 10T pots). Also U1, U5, U6. So, tell me more... what can I do with this card (1 channel in and 1 channel out)? Frequency? What software do I need? What are the missing chips, and resistor values? Hey, and while I'm axing questions :-) Anybody out there with Elektor for Feb 89? I have a set of PCBs that claim to be a MOSFET amp, EPS87096, not a computer but within the 10 year rule :-) Seeya all Wouter From technoid at cheta.net Wed Apr 26 08:39:08 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:06 2005 Subject: Rubber rejuvination In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200004261341.JAA02566@lexington.ioa.net> It works well. We use this very stuff to recondition rubber rollers in laser printers etc. It gives the rollers new life. It HAS to be bad for the environment because it SMELLS HORRIBLE. In , on 04/26/00 at 09:39 AM, Mike Ford said: >http://www.techspray.com/1612info.htm -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From inforum at umd5.umd.edu Wed Apr 26 08:45:19 2000 From: inforum at umd5.umd.edu (Douglas Meade) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:06 2005 Subject: The DEC M9060 board In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000425144748.00ac3140@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: Chuck, Right you are! I rescued my most recent BA213 from the yard, completely stripped of boards, but the thieves had left the M9060 for dead in the mud. I ran it through the dishwasher, hung it out to dry, plugged it in, and now I've got another Vax. Hey, I was mailing you to ask how badly you want that Qbus RRD40 on E-bay. I guess my own reservation price would be about $60. I've already got the card, and several RRD40's (and only one drive caddy -- that set me back $15!), but I'm lacking the cable and interface board for Qbus. But I've got a question for you. What kind of Vax case can you mount one of these things in? I would guess it needs to be horizontal, right? Doug On Tue, 25 Apr 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > The visual field guide lists it as ??? many other field guides don't list > it at all. It was the answer to question I didn't know to ask. Its a > friggin' dummy load! > > Another of lifes little mysteries solved. > --Chuck > From kla at helios.augustana.edu Wed Apr 26 09:44:30 2000 From: kla at helios.augustana.edu (Kevin L. Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:06 2005 Subject: OT: WTB: Mac II Monitor Cable Message-ID: Sorry to bother you folks, but all local sources are turning up negative. You might recall a few weeks back I reported that my son was given a Mac LC II computer for free, sans monitor. Well, now we were given a monitor, but it lacks, sure enough, the DB-15 cable to connect it to the computer. The world here in the Midwest seems to be solid into the PC world, with tons of SVGA cables, including at stores that formerly sold Apple products. Where can I get a replacement Mac monitor cable? Thanks. Kevin Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Kevin L. Anderson Ph.D., Geography Department, Augustana College Rock Island, Illinois 61201-2296, USA phone: (309) 794-7325 e-mail: kla@helios.augustana.edu -or- gganderson@augustana.edu * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Opinions expressed here are my own and do not represent the administration of Augustana College. From kla at helios.augustana.edu Wed Apr 26 09:57:20 2000 From: kla at helios.augustana.edu (Kevin L. Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:06 2005 Subject: Focal manual online? Message-ID: I've managed to get the PDP-8 emulator running on one of my computers (the Sun box at school here took it with no problem; my Linux box at home is still not dealing with the keyboard correctly....). One program I loaded was Focal. However, I don't know beans about Focal, other than that I know it is an interpretive language of some sort developed by DEC. Is there a scanned Focal manual online anywhere? Thanks. Cheers, Kevin Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Kevin L. Anderson Ph.D., Geography Department, Augustana College Rock Island, Illinois 61201-2296, USA phone: (309) 794-7325 e-mail: kla@helios.augustana.edu -or- gganderson@augustana.edu * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Opinions expressed here are my own and do not represent the administration of Augustana College. From bill at chipware.com Wed Apr 26 10:09:08 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:06 2005 Subject: Shugart 851 power problem In-Reply-To: <003b01bfaf0f$39ea7460$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <000701bfaf91$5eef4100$350810ac@yamato.chipware.com> > Don's observation is an astute one, since a linear supply doesn't > generally allow both positive and negative supplies to interact. > Unless this is a MAJOR ground loop thing, we're probably looking > at a switcher. Don't know how to identify a switcher, but here are the specs: The whole box is Xerox product code F10, model 820. The PS has a sticker which reads: ASTEC AA11860 XEROX 105P80399. The sticker is all preprinted, that is, it does not give the impression that those are serial numbers. The PS is one board, with one transformer, about 1 1/2" across the windings and another, much smaller, about 3/4" across the windings. There are three cans about the size of AA batteries, five cans about the size of my thumb and three smaller cans. No signs of leaks. There is a fuse marked 2 1/2 Amp, 250 Volts which seems to be in good shape. There is a sticker which reads: "CAUTION Hazard of electric shock - heatsink is LIVE". There are transistors and diodes attached to the sinks and of course there are resistors and other components too numerous to list. Nothing looks burnt, charred or popped. > Has anybody tried powering on the drives AFTER the IMSAI box is in > steady-state? Here ya go: (By the way, this is measured using the solder pads where the DC socket is connected to the 851 and is the same on both.) #1 IMSAI on and booted into Cromemco RDOS, drives off: 5 volt line reads 1.2 -5 volt line reads 0.0 24 volt line reads 0.6 #2 Next, turn drives on: Same as #1 #3 Turn IMSAI off: 5 volt line reads 4.9 -5 volt line reads -4.9 24 volt line reads 23.7 #4 Turn IMSAI back on: 5 volt line reads 5.0 -5 volt line reads -5.0 24 volt line reads 24.0 From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Wed Apr 26 10:09:40 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:06 2005 Subject: Collectors from Holland & India please contact me... In-Reply-To: <200004221803.LAA16800@siconic.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Apr 2000 12:04:48 -0700 Sellam Ismail wrote: > Also, she would like information about the different locations around the > world trying to model their local high tech economy around the Silicon > Valley, and calling themselves "Silicon ", ie. Silicon > Corridor, Silicon Gulch, etc. If your local high tech community is > referred > to as the "Silicon " and you can talk a bit about it then please > contact me and I'll pass your info along to her. I've heard the area around Cambridge, UK, referred to as "Silicon Fen". The Fens are a low-lying area of countryside near Cambridge. Also, in Scotland there's "Silicon Glen". Somewhere near Edinburgh, I think. Possibly referring to the HP works there. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From ernestls at home.com Wed Apr 26 11:08:32 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:06 2005 Subject: Opening CP/M files (.asm/.bas) Message-ID: <000201bfaf99$abd0ace0$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> I have an Apple II with a Z80 card, and lots of CP/M disks for it but I'm having a problem opening the .ASM and .BAS files. I thumbed through a book on both Mbasic and CP/M but neither of these books clearly describe how to work with these files. The Mbasic books says to open Mbasic, and at the "OK" prompt type RUN "B:MAINT.BAS" (for example)but when I do that, it gives me a "Direct Statement in file" message, and then it goes back to the "OK" prompt. I don't have a clue how to work with the .ASM files -like SUPRTRK3.ASM or BLKFRI2.ASM. I can see that they are games by typing TYPE SUPRTRK3.ASM but the text flies by so fast that I can't see much else. I have a lot of disks that have nothing but .BAS and .ASM files so any help that you can give me would be appreciated. Also, I have one disk that has a single large file called PILOTA.LST. What do I do with that? Thanks for your help. Ernest From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed Apr 26 11:30:41 2000 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:06 2005 Subject: WTB: Mac II Monitor Cable References: Message-ID: <20000426162605.80297.qmail@hotmail.com> The Cyberguys carry just about every computer cable known to man at fairly resonable prices. Not the best quality, but they work. They're great for SCSI and video cables. http://www.cyberguys.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin L. Anderson" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2000 10:44 AM Subject: OT: WTB: Mac II Monitor Cable > Sorry to bother you folks, but all local sources > are turning up negative. > > You might recall a few weeks back I reported that my son > was given a Mac LC II computer for free, sans monitor. > > Well, now we were given a monitor, but it lacks, sure enough, > the DB-15 cable to connect it to the computer. > > The world here in the Midwest seems to be solid into the PC > world, with tons of SVGA cables, including at stores that formerly > sold Apple products. > > Where can I get a replacement Mac monitor cable? > Thanks. Kevin Anderson > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > Kevin L. Anderson Ph.D., Geography Department, Augustana College > Rock Island, Illinois 61201-2296, USA phone: (309) 794-7325 > e-mail: kla@helios.augustana.edu -or- gganderson@augustana.edu > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > Opinions expressed here are my own and do not represent > the administration of Augustana College. > > From sipke at wxs.nl Wed Apr 26 12:30:19 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:06 2005 Subject: Hunting References: Message-ID: <012601bfafa5$18512920$030101ac@boll.casema.net> What kinda Burroughs ? I once had a B80 ..... ----- Original Message ----- From: Merle K. Peirce for parts, etc. > > Next month we go to Canada to get a Burroughs system. From sipke at wxs.nl Wed Apr 26 12:36:04 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:06 2005 Subject: Rubber rejuvination References: <200004261341.JAA02566@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <014501bfafa5$e86597e0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2000 3:39 PM Subject: Re: Rubber rejuvination > It works well. We use this very stuff to recondition rubber rollers in > laser printers etc. It gives the rollers new life. It HAS to be bad for > the environment because it SMELLS HORRIBLE. > There are quite a few things that smell horrible and are not all that bad for the environment ................. Sipke From gpine at gri.org Wed Apr 26 11:35:00 2000 From: gpine at gri.org (gpine@gri.org) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:06 2005 Subject: Opening CP/M files (.asm/.bas) Message-ID: <862568CD.005B18BC.00@chilnnt01.gri.org> It's been a long time since I used my Apple II with CP/M, but I'll give you the dubious benefit of my decaying knowledge of the subject. First, I don't see anything obviously wrong with what you're doing to try to run the basic program. I don't remember the exact syntax, but I assume that you've got that correct from the MBasic book. As far as the ASM files are concerned, you should be able to use your EDIT program, which should be on your CP/M boot disk to look at the files in a somewhat more leisurely manner that allowed by using TYPE. For that matter, any editor that you may have that can display ASCII files (Wordstar in the "non-document" mode, for example) can be used to examine the files. I don't know what assembler you have with the Apple CP/M disks, but you should have at least ASM, the 8080 assembler, and perhaps M80 as well. I'm not an assembly language programmer, but if you can find an old reference on assembly language programming under CP/M, it should tell you the steps necessary to compile, link (to libraries), and run the programs. You may even already have the executable files ready to run. Look on the disk for a file with the same name as for the ASM files, but with a .com extension. I hope this helps get you started. "Ernest" on 04/26/2000 11:08:32 AM Please respond to classiccmp@classiccmp.org To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org cc: (bcc: Gerald Pine/GRI) Subject: Opening CP/M files (.asm/.bas) I have an Apple II with a Z80 card, and lots of CP/M disks for it but I'm having a problem opening the .ASM and .BAS files. I thumbed through a book on both Mbasic and CP/M but neither of these books clearly describe how to work with these files. The Mbasic books says to open Mbasic, and at the "OK" prompt type RUN "B:MAINT.BAS" (for example)but when I do that, it gives me a "Direct Statement in file" message, and then it goes back to the "OK" prompt. I don't have a clue how to work with the .ASM files -like SUPRTRK3.ASM or BLKFRI2.ASM. I can see that they are games by typing TYPE SUPRTRK3.ASM but the text flies by so fast that I can't see much else. I have a lot of disks that have nothing but .BAS and .ASM files so any help that you can give me would be appreciated. Also, I have one disk that has a single large file called PILOTA.LST. What do I do with that? Thanks for your help. Ernest From technoid at cheta.net Wed Apr 26 11:42:30 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:06 2005 Subject: Opening CP/M files (.asm/.bas) In-Reply-To: <000201bfaf99$abd0ace0$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: <200004261648.MAA21857@lexington.ioa.net> In Mbasic try: LOAD "B:FILENAME.BAS" then you can list/modify it. Could also be that the .bas files are written for the other popular CP/M basic : CBASIC. The .ASM files need to be compiled to run I think. If I recall the assembler is called MASM on your system disk. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From technoid at cheta.net Wed Apr 26 11:47:56 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:06 2005 Subject: Packard Bell dead? In-Reply-To: <000201bfaf99$abd0ace0$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: <200004261649.MAA22223@lexington.ioa.net> I keep hearing rumors that Packard Bell is out of business. As a tech I can say I haven't seen any really new ones in a while. Never a PB PII or K6-2 machine. Whats the deal? Thier website is up and makes no mention of any trouble. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From sipke at wxs.nl Wed Apr 26 12:44:43 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:06 2005 Subject: Opening CP/M files (.asm/.bas) References: <000201bfaf99$abd0ace0$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: <015701bfafa7$1b733ec0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: Ernest To: Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2000 6:08 PM Subject: Opening CP/M files (.asm/.bas) > I have an Apple II with a Z80 card, and lots of CP/M disks for it but I'm > having a problem opening the .ASM and .BAS files. I thumbed through a book > on both Mbasic and CP/M but neither of these books clearly describe how to > work with these files. > > The Mbasic books says to open Mbasic, and at the "OK" prompt type RUN > "B:MAINT.BAS" (for example)but when I do that, it gives me a "Direct > Statement in file" message, and then it goes back to the "OK" prompt. See if you can edit the .BAS file with an editor (Only a ASCII .BAS file can contain a direct statement) Then edit out the offending statment and run it. I don't see how a tokenized .BAS file could be saved with a direct statement. For .ASM files you need an assembler and linker/loader program to generate the object code (usually a .COM file). Look for another program like ZASM.COM that may be the assembler. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Apr 26 12:04:46 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: Packard Bell dead? Message-ID: <3a.44d2316.26387bae@aol.com> In a message dated 4/26/00 12:54:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, technoid@cheta.net writes: > I keep hearing rumors that Packard Bell is out of business. As a tech I > can say I haven't seen any really new ones in a while. Never a PB PII or > K6-2 machine. Whats the deal? Thier website is up and makes no mention > of any trouble. they were bought up by NEC IIRC. i did see some PB models a few months ago when i did onsite warranty work. to their credit, the latest models were standard ATX form factor machines, but still cheaply made. DB Young ICQ: 29427634 view the computers of yesteryear at http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm --You can lead a whore to Vassar, but you can't make her think-- From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Apr 26 12:06:20 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: WTB: Mac II Monitor Cable Message-ID: <7c.4b0112f.26387c0c@aol.com> In a message dated 4/26/00 12:34:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jbmcb@hotmail.com writes: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kevin L. Anderson" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2000 10:44 AM > Subject: OT: WTB: Mac II Monitor Cable > > > > Sorry to bother you folks, but all local sources > > are turning up negative. > > > > You might recall a few weeks back I reported that my son > > was given a Mac LC II computer for free, sans monitor. > > > > Well, now we were given a monitor, but it lacks, sure enough, > > the DB-15 cable to connect it to the computer. > > > > The world here in the Midwest seems to be solid into the PC > > world, with tons of SVGA cables, including at stores that formerly > > sold Apple products. > > > > Where can I get a replacement Mac monitor cable? > > Thanks. Kevin Anderson its just a 15 pin straight wired cable. i think dalco.com carries the cable, but since an IBM joystick extender cable seems to be the same thing, wouldnt that work? DB Young ICQ: 29427634 view the computers of yesteryear at http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm --You can lead a whore to Vassar, but you can't make her think-- From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Apr 26 11:59:41 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: Collectors from Holland & India please contact me... In-Reply-To: References: <200004221803.LAA16800@siconic.com> Message-ID: >On Sat, 22 Apr 2000 12:04:48 -0700 Sellam Ismail > wrote: >> Also, she would like information about the different locations around the >> world trying to model their local high tech economy around the Silicon >> Valley, and calling themselves "Silicon ", ie. Silicon >> Corridor, Silicon Gulch, etc. If your local high tech community is >> referred >> to as the "Silicon " and you can talk a bit about it then please >> contact me and I'll pass your info along to her. > >I've heard the area around Cambridge, UK, referred to as >"Silicon Fen". The Fens are a low-lying area of >countryside near Cambridge. > >Also, in Scotland there's "Silicon Glen". Somewhere near >Edinburgh, I think. Possibly referring to the HP works >there. I don't think any area starts calling itself "silicon" anything until some news media hangs the tag on them. Its a media thing, not a people thing. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Apr 26 11:56:29 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: OT: WTB: Mac II Monitor Cable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >You might recall a few weeks back I reported that my son >was given a Mac LC II computer for free, sans monitor. > >Well, now we were given a monitor, but it lacks, sure enough, >the DB-15 cable to connect it to the computer. I have perhaps 35 different and incompatible monitor cables, 7 for just one brand of monitor. You must specify the brand and model of monitor, then I can tell you if you need a cable or some kind of adapter (I am no wizard, I just go look up the monitor on the Griffin Technology web site). http://www.griffintechnology.com/monitor.html My latest relevation is that apparently none of the 13W3 monitors have compatible cables from different brands. So far I have SGI, and IBM to SVGA, and a few Apple and Sun straight through cables (13W3 on both ends anyway). From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 26 12:20:22 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: Opening CP/M files (.asm/.bas) In-Reply-To: <200004261648.MAA21857@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: > In Mbasic try: > LOAD "B:FILENAME.BAS" > then you can list/modify it. > Could also be that the .bas files are written for the other popular CP/M > basic : CBASIC. Or for a different version of the same BASIC. MBASIC 4.51 and MBASIC 5.03 had changes in their tokenizing. To convert between, the best way is to find the version of BASIC that's right for the file, load the file, and SAVE "B:FILENAME.BAS" ,A to save in full text rather than tokenized. you can then save again without the ,A from the new version. Or, there may any of a variety of other corruptions of the file. "Direct Statement in File" can come up from almost any line in the file that BASIC can't parse. > The .ASM files need to be compiled to run I think. If I recall the > assembler is called MASM on your system disk. It's called ASSEMBLED, although the difference between that and COMPILED would be of interest to few outside this list. MASM is the "Macro assembler". Look for ASM.COM on the system disk. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Apr 26 12:26:33 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: Rubber rejuvination In-Reply-To: <014501bfafa5$e86597e0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> References: <200004261341.JAA02566@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: >> It works well. We use this very stuff to recondition rubber rollers in >> laser printers etc. It gives the rollers new life. It HAS to be bad for >> the environment because it SMELLS HORRIBLE. >> >There are quite a few things that smell horrible and are not all >that bad for the environment ................. > >Sipke I will offer a free squirt of the most horrible smelling soy based lubricant to any who doubt this. From technoid at cheta.net Wed Apr 26 12:30:53 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: Rubber rejuvination In-Reply-To: <014501bfafa5$e86597e0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <200004261732.NAA03383@lexington.ioa.net> In <014501bfafa5$e86597e0$030101ac@boll.casema.net>, on 04/26/00 at 01:30 PM, "Sipke de Wal" said: >There are quite a few things that smell horrible and are not all that bad >for the environment ................. >Sipke Yea, my collegue Shane for instance..... ;-) -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From edick at idcomm.com Wed Apr 26 12:33:22 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: Shugart 851 power problem References: <000701bfaf91$5eef4100$350810ac@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <000701bfafa5$864e3440$0400c0a8@winbook> Well, That leaves little room for doubt . . . it's probably a switcher. I've never seen a linear supply from ASTEC. The small transformer and small capacitors suggest the same conclusion. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Sudbrink To: Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2000 9:09 AM Subject: RE: Shugart 851 power problem > > Don's observation is an astute one, since a linear supply doesn't > > generally allow both positive and negative supplies to interact. > > Unless this is a MAJOR ground loop thing, we're probably looking > > at a switcher. > > Don't know how to identify a switcher, but here are the specs: > The whole box is Xerox product code F10, model 820. > The PS has a sticker which reads: ASTEC AA11860 XEROX 105P80399. > The sticker is all preprinted, that is, it does not give the > impression that those are serial numbers. The PS is one board, > with one transformer, about 1 1/2" across the windings and another, > much smaller, about 3/4" across the windings. There are three cans > about the size of AA batteries, five cans about the size of my thumb > and three smaller cans. No signs of leaks. There is a fuse marked > 2 1/2 Amp, 250 Volts which seems to be in good shape. There is a > sticker which reads: "CAUTION Hazard of electric shock - heatsink > is LIVE". There are transistors and diodes attached to the sinks > and of course there are resistors and other components too numerous > to list. Nothing looks burnt, charred or popped. > > > Has anybody tried powering on the drives AFTER the IMSAI box is in > > steady-state? > > Here ya go: > (By the way, this is measured using the solder pads where the DC > socket is connected to the 851 and is the same on both.) > > #1 IMSAI on and booted into Cromemco RDOS, drives off: > 5 volt line reads 1.2 > -5 volt line reads 0.0 > 24 volt line reads 0.6 > > #2 Next, turn drives on: > Same as #1 > > #3 Turn IMSAI off: > 5 volt line reads 4.9 > -5 volt line reads -4.9 > 24 volt line reads 23.7 > > #4 Turn IMSAI back on: > 5 volt line reads 5.0 > -5 volt line reads -5.0 > 24 volt line reads 24.0 > From dylanb at sympatico.ca Wed Apr 26 13:22:55 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: PDP-10 yellow pages References: <200004261732.NAA03383@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <002401bfafac$70e429a0$fd83fea9@office> Anyone ever hear of a manual refered to as the PDP-10 yellow pages? john From at258 at osfn.org Wed Apr 26 13:04:02 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: Hunting In-Reply-To: <012601bfafa5$18512920$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: A B800. On Wed, 26 Apr 2000, Sipke de Wal wrote: > What kinda Burroughs ? > > I once had a B80 ..... > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Merle K. Peirce > for parts, etc. > > > > Next month we go to Canada to get a Burroughs system. > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Apr 26 13:01:49 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: Collectors from Holland & India please contact me... In-Reply-To: John Honniball "Re: Collectors from Holland & India please contact me..." (Apr 26, 16:09) References: Message-ID: <10004261901.ZM15979@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 26, 16:09, John Honniball wrote: > I've heard the area around Cambridge, UK, referred to as > "Silicon Fen". The Fens are a low-lying area of > countryside near Cambridge. > > Also, in Scotland there's "Silicon Glen". Somewhere near > Edinburgh, I think. Possibly referring to the HP works > there. It's actually the area around Glenrothes, on the other side of the River Forth (and parties on both sides would be offended to be confused with the other :-)). There used to be (still are?) lots of electronics companies around there -- though HP is in South Queensferry, near Edinburgh, not in Silicon Glen. The most famous Glenrothes company I can think of is (er, was) Rodime. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From dylanb at sympatico.ca Wed Apr 26 13:56:14 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: TU56 and PDP-8/E available References: Message-ID: <001501bfafb1$18eb28c0$fd83fea9@office> After selling my collection I have a few pieces available that did not go. I also held some wishlist items aside. I received a lot of requests for a PDP-8/E and TU56 tape drives. I am not going to eBay these items and am hoping someone here wants to buy them. The PDP-8/E: Serial #722. Surface rust. Poor front panel (scratches and worn). I restored this mini to running condition and *really* don't want to spend the time repainting it and having a new front panel screened. The mini comes with: 4K core, M865 teletype interface. Full set of maintenance manuals. (all three) The TU56: Loaded, very nice and in great condition. Set up for PDP-8.Has the 5 G888 cards and an M961. This unit can easily be converted to PDP-11 by removing the G888s and placing them in the TC11, removing the M961 and adding the two TC11 cables. Serial #8045 - yes, that means 8045 unhappy customers and field service calls! The TC11 has been sold. Both are available for a decent offer. The going rate for a TU56 is about $1000. Best offer takes them. I am also selling some stuff *outside* the DEC world that was not part of my collection sale: HP21MX system, paper tape, disk controller, extenders, extra parts, internal DEC manuals. I think Jay West was interested in these. Data General Nova 3 manuals and books and software and spare boards. Cromemco S-100 - very heavy, 4 floppy drives, manuals. Built like a tank. Never turned on, I don't restore S-100 stuff. Victor Graphics S-100 with floppy drives. Same status as above. I have around 4 TM02/TM03 units I am scrapping. Pick up or I throw out. Please e-mail me off the list. dylanb@sympatico.ca http://www.pdp8.com/ john From dylanb at sympatico.ca Wed Apr 26 14:02:01 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: Addition: TU56 and PDP-8/E available References: <001501bfafb1$18eb28c0$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <002d01bfafb1$e766a800$fd83fea9@office> The PDP-8/E has the top cover with it.. Some surface rust - not really a problem. john ----- Original Message ----- From: johnb To: Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2000 2:56 PM Subject: TU56 and PDP-8/E available > After selling my collection I have a few pieces available that did not go. I > also held some wishlist items aside. I received a lot of requests for a > PDP-8/E and TU56 tape drives. I am not going to eBay these items and am > hoping someone here wants to buy them. > > The PDP-8/E: > > Serial #722. Surface rust. Poor front panel (scratches and worn). I restored > this mini to running condition and *really* don't want to spend the time > repainting it and having a new front panel screened. The mini comes with: > > 4K core, M865 teletype interface. > Full set of maintenance manuals. (all three) > > > The TU56: > > Loaded, very nice and in great condition. Set up for PDP-8.Has the 5 G888 > cards and an M961. This unit can easily be converted to PDP-11 by removing > the G888s and placing them in the TC11, removing the M961 and adding the two > TC11 cables. Serial #8045 - yes, that means 8045 unhappy customers and field > service calls! The TC11 has been sold. > > Both are available for a decent offer. The going rate for a TU56 is about > $1000. Best offer takes them. > > I am also selling some stuff *outside* the DEC world that was not part of my > collection sale: > > HP21MX system, paper tape, disk controller, extenders, extra parts, internal > DEC manuals. I think Jay West was interested in these. > > Data General Nova 3 manuals and books and software and spare boards. > > Cromemco S-100 - very heavy, 4 floppy drives, manuals. Built like a tank. > Never turned on, I don't restore S-100 stuff. > > Victor Graphics S-100 with floppy drives. Same status as above. > > I have around 4 TM02/TM03 units I am scrapping. Pick up or I throw out. > > > > Please e-mail me off the list. > > dylanb@sympatico.ca > http://www.pdp8.com/ > > john > > > > From elvey at hal.com Wed Apr 26 13:22:31 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: Shugart 851 power problem In-Reply-To: <000701bfafa5$864e3440$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <200004261822.LAA26437@civic.hal.com> "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > Well, That leaves little room for doubt . . . it's probably a switcher. > I've never seen a linear supply from ASTEC. The small transformer and small > capacitors suggest the same conclusion. > > Dick Hi I agree with Dick, it sure sounds like a switcher. The small transformer and the high voltage warning on the heat sink are good indicators. I still think it is a problem in the supply some place. I once had a similar problem in a switcher for a monitor. I never did track it down to the exact part that was causing trouble. My excuse was that I didn't have the schematic and besides, I did a hack to get it to work. I found that I could get it to power up if I disconnected the filament of the tube until it brought the power up. I put an extra push button on it and my younger brother inherited it later. All in all, it had about 6 years life instead of 1.5. It wasn't a recommended fix but it got me by. I'm surely not that proud, only indicating the options that one could take. In switchers, the filter capacitors on the output side run real close to their limits as far as power dissipation. This isn't as much a problem on linears. Try tacking an additional capacitor on the output filter of the 24 volt. If it is what I think it is, the voltage is coming up too fast, triggering a current shutdown. The reason it restarts after cycling is that there is a little charge left on the load caps and that reduces the power on surge. Look for the rectifiers on the output of the transformer, that is where the capacitors are. Dwight From pat at transarc.ibm.com Wed Apr 26 13:12:20 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: PDP-10 yellow pages In-Reply-To: <002401bfafac$70e429a0$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Apr 2000, johnb wrote: > Anyone ever hear of a manual refered to as the PDP-10 yellow pages? Not sure it's the same thing, but I have a "PDP-10 Processor Handbook" that I've heard refered to as the "PDP-10 Phonebook" - 'cause it looks a bit like a telephone directory, printed on newsprint-type paper. It's the processor reference for the KA10, published in 1970 (at least, the copy I have is dated 1970). I've decided that, as soon as I can get a scanner and a copy of Adobe Acrobat 4.0 (i.e., the full version, not just the reader), I'm going to cut the pages out of the binding on my copy and scan it in. It breaks my heart to do that, but the paper is deteriorating really badly, and it's not going to last all that much longer anyway. I also have a "PDP-10 Timesharing Handbook" that's in pretty much the same condition (if not slightly worse), and will need to meet the same fate. --Pat. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 26 14:42:05 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: Shugart 851 power problem In-Reply-To: <000701bfaf91$5eef4100$350810ac@yamato.chipware.com> from "Bill Sudbrink" at Apr 26, 0 11:09:08 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 751 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000426/4592092c/attachment.ksh From rivie at teraglobal.com Wed Apr 26 15:23:24 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: Hunting In-Reply-To: <012601bfafa5$18512920$030101ac@boll.casema.net> References: <012601bfafa5$18512920$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: >What kinda Burroughs ? > >I once had a B80 ..... I once worked for an accounting firm that used a B800. I had to beg and whine to get them to let me use the COBOL compiler... -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Apr 26 17:02:35 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: PDP-10 yellow pages In-Reply-To: <002401bfafac$70e429a0$fd83fea9@office> (dylanb@sympatico.ca) References: <200004261732.NAA03383@lexington.ioa.net> <002401bfafac$70e429a0$fd83fea9@office> Message-ID: <20000426220235.16986.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Anyone ever hear of a manual refered to as the PDP-10 yellow pages? Yes, any of the PDP-10 Handbooks. They were printed on roughly phone-book grade paper that may have been slightly yellow to start with, but has definitely yellowed more with age. Also referred to as "phone books". From technoid at cheta.net Wed Apr 26 16:32:13 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: SparcStation Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200004262205.SAA15540@lexington.ioa.net> I've come a long way from the dead machine I picked up and CPB a few weeks ago. It is running Solaris 2.4 and OPENWindows. Can I install/graft a later version of Solaris on the machine? Perhaps the only thing missing from solaris 2.7 is the direct support for the Sun4 architecture (versus sun4m and sun4u which are supported in 2.7) and I could graft that support onto the cd image? How and where do I find a C compiler for this machine? I see something called YACC (yet another C compiler compiler) on my disk. Is this a C compiler or something else? I would like GCC. This leads me to applications. Binaries are kinda hard to find for Versions of solaris below 2.5 as compiled binaries. I have never compiled anything except for MiNT - a wierd variant of NetBSD for the Atari ST series machines so I lack experience. Any hints on compiling apps? I found X11R6 precompiled but it is in FRENCH. I would rather die than run a French window manager. I feel comfortable with the status quo as far as they are concerned. e don't like them, they don't like us. ;-) FYI I am 1/4 French. The self loathing was hard to deal with at first but after a while I was able to bear it. I would like to find a better window manager than my present version of CDE. Preferably pre-compiled but not required to be. I have gotten my "." files in order and the system now has some scripts to execute at startup which do things like launch openwin, set the paths, etcetera but the Openwin scripts are still a mystery (mainly because I haven't addressed the issue yet). A shortcut in the form of advice would be welcome. For instance, I would like to know how to have the machine issue an "xhost SUNBOX" to it'self when openwindows launches versus doing it manually which is how it is now. Assuming I have a C compiler properly working, am I able to pretty much compile anything I want from say Linux or BSD? What does NetBSD get me on this Sun4 Sparc? Is it worth it? Is the install hell? It was easy as pie to install solaris 2.4 once I got the media on the machine. Does NetBSD require a 'host' operating system ala A/UX on Apple servers, or does it 'do it all'? Is it 'pretty' as Window managers go? I am spoiled by OS/2 but have enough Unix 'sticktime' to forgive it for a weak GUI. I have a Plextor 4x cdrom installed on the machine and it works very well. It is set for 512byte blocks but WILL NOT BOOT for anything. The commands I have tried are various but from the docs I gather "b sd(0,30,1) should do the trick. A hard disk with the cd image on it booted perfectly with this same command but the cdrom just barfs and the systems says ' device not found '. I do not have the FORTH openboot prom and so am limited to the original command set ie 'q xx' to adjust the eeprom and 'b xx(n,n,n)' to boot media. Can I get original docs for the machine? Are there any inobvious things I should know that I don't know already? There are LOTS of things I don't know... What about SAMBA for this machine? Why in the heck di Sun put such a COOOOL led display BENEATH the cover? Would it be sacreligious or reduce the value of the machine significantly if I tapped some holes in the top and mounted opticaly conductive plastic 'extenders' to the leds so I can see them race around with the cover on? Lots of printers and computers use these clear plastic conductors so the mfgr doesn't have to mount the leds directly to the housing. Totally unexplored territory for me is Xwindows on a remote (client) computer vs the console of the machine X is running on. How can I use my clone to run as an Xwindows client to the Sun machine? I am running OS/2 Warp for the most part but I also have Solaris 2.7 and Redhat Linux on my clone box. Windows is out of the question. I fix it at work and that is all I'll have to do with it. Chrissy runs Warp 4 for the most part but our scanner runs in 98 so we use 98 for that purpose only at home. I can't afford a scsi scanner.... Thanks for your time and support. All of you. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Apr 26 17:40:09 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: PDP-10 yellow pages In-Reply-To: Pat Barron "Re: PDP-10 yellow pages" (Apr 26, 14:12) References: Message-ID: <10004262340.ZM16145@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 26, 14:12, Pat Barron wrote: > I've decided that, as soon as I can get a scanner and a copy of Adobe > Acrobat 4.0 (i.e., the full version, not just the reader), I'm going to > cut the pages out of the binding on my copy and scan it in. It breaks my > heart to do that, but the paper is deteriorating really badly, and it's > not going to last all that much longer anyway. You won't be the first to do that, and in the long run, it's probably the kindest thing to do to it if you do it properly. Before you do, though, take a look at http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/book/index.html -- if you've not already seen it. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Apr 26 16:46:20 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: PDP-10 yellow pages Message-ID: <002601bfafc9$2619b710$7a64c0d0@ajp166> >> Anyone ever hear of a manual refered to as the PDP-10 yellow pages? > >Yes, any of the PDP-10 Handbooks. They were printed on roughly phone-book >grade paper that may have been slightly yellow to start with, but has >definitely yellowed more with age. Also referred to as "phone books". that and also one o fthe manuals had a yellow cover, I believe it was this programming manual. Allison From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Apr 26 19:18:09 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: Of course... a few more VMS questions... ;-) In-Reply-To: <200004251917.PAA76780@bg-tc-ppp848.monmouth.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000426201809.00a47100@mail.30below.com> Okay... I'm getting accustomed to the VMS directory structure, and have even installed a few apps from one of the CD's, which (of course) failed the tail-end of the install due to my not having a DECUS membership number yet (pending) or VMS hobbyist license (also pending, and will get right after DECUS gets back to me.) Now, will that license be good for anything I install as far as software, or will I have to get a license for every type of program I want to run? (I sincerely hope the former... ;-) Mainly, I just want to do some C and BASIC programming for now. And one other question which I've not found or figured out myself... How do I get a directory listing of *just the subdirectories*? I've figured out how to search for a particular filename or extension recursively thru the subdirectories, but what's the VMS equivalent to DOS's dir /ad or linux's ls -lAF|grep '/$' ??? Thanks for all the help! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed Apr 26 19:33:40 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: SparcStation Questions In-Reply-To: <200004262205.SAA15540@lexington.ioa.net> from "technoid@cheta.net" at "Apr 26, 2000 05:32:13 pm" Message-ID: <200004270033.UAA99356@bg-tc-ppp611.monmouth.com> > I've come a long way from the dead machine I picked up and CPB a few weeks > ago. It is running Solaris 2.4 and OPENWindows. > > Can I install/graft a later version of Solaris on the machine? Perhaps > the only thing missing from solaris 2.7 is the direct support for the Sun4 > architecture (versus sun4m and sun4u which are supported in 2.7) and I > could graft that support onto the cd image? > > How and where do I find a C compiler for this machine? I see something > called YACC (yet another C compiler compiler) on my disk. Is this a C > compiler or something else? I would like GCC. This leads me to > applications. Binaries are kinda hard to find for Versions of solaris > below 2.5 as compiled binaries. I have never compiled anything except for > MiNT - a wierd variant of NetBSD for the Atari ST series machines so I > lack experience. Any hints on compiling apps? Yacc -- yet another compiler compiler is kind of part of a compiler construction kit -- along with the lex program. The best thing to do for the C compiler is to get the GCC (Gnu C Compiler) -- any version after 2.x should do... and use that to build the latest version. You should be able to find it in half a dozen places... The solaris freeware site is a good starting point: http://smc.vnet.net/solaris_2.5.html > I found X11R6 precompiled but it is in FRENCH. I would rather die than > run a French window manager. I feel comfortable with the status quo as far > as they are concerned. e don't like them, they don't like us. ;-) FYI I > am 1/4 French. The self loathing was hard to deal with at first but after > a while I was able to bear it. I would like to find a better window > manager than my present version of CDE. Preferably pre-compiled but not > required to be. Interesting... CDE usually has different languages you can set from the main xdm-like CDE login screen... Unless they only loaded one language version... > > I have gotten my "." files in order and the system now has some scripts to > execute at startup which do things like launch openwin, set the paths, > etcetera but the Openwin scripts are still a mystery (mainly because I > haven't addressed the issue yet). A shortcut in the form of advice would > be welcome. For instance, I would like to know how to have the machine > issue an "xhost SUNBOX" to it'self when openwindows launches versus doing > it manually which is how it is now. > Well, there's a CDE setup program (I'll have to do some digging at work... I pulled Solaris for NetBSD on this ELC at home and I've still got SunOS 4.1.4 on the Opus SparcStation2 clone. There's something to be said for the older SunOS on the Sparc2 class machines. The only reason I've considered something else is the newer Netscapes. 4.62 is the last SunOS 4.x version. It crashes pretty often on most Unix platforms. > Assuming I have a C compiler properly working, am I able to pretty much > compile anything I want from say Linux or BSD? Yup... And with the correct libraries from your current machine -- It'll run Solaris binaries with NetBSD or probably OpenBSD too. > > What does NetBSD get me on this Sun4 Sparc? Is it worth it? Is the > install hell? It was easy as pie to install solaris 2.4 once I got the > media on the machine. It's pretty easy to install NetBSD/OpenBSD from CD... You can just take Solaris to single user and DD the miniroot image to the boot disk swap partition and boot it directly from the rom, I think. Did it here with the ELC, but I don't know much about the older roms. > Does NetBSD require a 'host' operating system ala > A/UX on Apple servers, or does it 'do it all'? Is it 'pretty' as Window > managers go? I am spoiled by OS/2 but have enough Unix 'sticktime' to > forgive it for a weak GUI. > As an OS/2 fan -- nothing beats it as a desktop. OS/2's Object Desktop should get ported to the Unix like environments... Anyway, NetBSD has the compiler, X11 (from XFree86) and should run KDE and stuff... > I have a Plextor 4x cdrom installed on the machine and it works very well. > It is set for 512byte blocks but WILL NOT BOOT for anything. The commands > I have tried are various but from the docs I gather "b sd(0,30,1) should > do the trick. A hard disk with the cd image on it booted perfectly with > this same command but the cdrom just barfs and the systems says ' device > not found '. I do not have the FORTH openboot prom and so am limited to > the original command set ie 'q xx' to adjust the eeprom and 'b xx(n,n,n)' > to boot media. Well, I think you can boot the miniroot b partion with that rom... but I'm not sure. > What about SAMBA for this machine? > Should compile right up for Solaris 2.x. > Totally unexplored territory for me is Xwindows on a remote (client) > computer vs the console of the machine X is running on. How can I use my > clone to run as an Xwindows client to the Sun machine? XFree86 is available for OS/2 now with the EMX runtime. http://www.xfree86.org for details. > I am running OS/2 > Warp for the most part but I also have Solaris 2.7 and Redhat Linux on my > clone box. Windows is out of the question. I fix it at work and that is > all I'll have to do with it. Chrissy runs Warp 4 for the most part but our > scanner runs in 98 so we use 98 for that purpose only at home. I can't > afford a scsi scanner.... > > Thanks for your time and support. All of you. > > Technical Services > Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. > 1979B Hendersonville Road > Asheville, NC 28803 > 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days > 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax > Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? > Technoid@Cheta.net > ----------------------------------------------------------- Glad to help. I'll do some more homework and try to post it. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed Apr 26 19:41:01 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: Of course... a few more VMS questions... ;-) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000426201809.00a47100@mail.30below.com> from Roger Merchberger at "Apr 26, 2000 08:18:09 pm" Message-ID: <200004270041.UAA99371@bg-tc-ppp611.monmouth.com> > Okay... I'm getting accustomed to the VMS directory structure, and have > even installed a few apps from one of the CD's, which (of course) failed > the tail-end of the install due to my not having a DECUS membership number > yet (pending) or VMS hobbyist license (also pending, and will get right > after DECUS gets back to me.) DECUS used to be real good. They reinitialized my old membership which got dropped (somehow) for inactivity overnight... the next day I got the licenses off the web. Unfortunately I still haven't gotten the VaxStation up yet. (too much real work and too much time playing with the Sun stuff at home lately)... Of course, they`ve shrunk in size and been dounsized to hell. The SIG groups got cut back. They got way too political after Ken Olson left and Palmer came in. Anyway, I got my package from them with the new ID card in a couple of days after they got my request. > Now, will that license be good for anything I install as far as software, > or will I have to get a license for every type of program I want to run? (I > sincerely hope the former... ;-) Mainly, I just want to do some C and > BASIC programming for now. The license from the hobbyist site will cover the layered apps for non-commercial use (includsing languages) > > And one other question which I've not found or figured out myself... How do > I get a directory listing of *just the subdirectories*? I've figured out > how to search for a particular filename or extension recursively thru the > subdirectories, but what's the VMS equivalent to DOS's dir /ad or linux's > ls -lAF|grep '/$' ??? Boy... it's been too long away from VAX/VMS for this old DEC tech... 12 years is a long time. > > Thanks for all the help! > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers > Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. > > If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead > disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Apr 26 19:47:57 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: Of course... a few more VMS questions... ;-) Message-ID: <000426204757.202006ba@trailing-edge.com> >And one other question which I've not found or figured out myself... How do >I get a directory listing of *just the subdirectories*? I've figured out >how to search for a particular filename or extension recursively thru the >subdirectories, but what's the VMS equivalent to DOS's dir /ad or linux's >ls -lAF|grep '/$' ??? If you want to see the names of the directories, do DIR *.DIR Note that it's possible for a "regular" file to have a .DIR extension; if you want to tell the difference do a DIR/FULL one it and look to see if the "is a directory" attribute is on. If you want to see what's in the subdirectories, do DIR [.*] If you want to see what's in the subdirectories, and the directories below them, usw., do DIR [...] (The above gives you what's in your current directory too. Do a DIR [.*...] to see only what's below.) See, isn't that sweet? No funny flags to pass, nicely useful wildcarding, both signs of a truly CUSPy utility. Tim. From rhblake at bigfoot.com Wed Apr 26 20:03:11 2000 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: Packard Bell dead? References: <3a.44d2316.26387bae@aol.com> Message-ID: <390791CF.7ED6C7B1@bigfoot.com> PB was bought out by NEC and there is still warranty on their machines but I'm not sure if anything new )P2 or 3( have been put out. SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/26/00 12:54:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > technoid@cheta.net writes: > > > I keep hearing rumors that Packard Bell is out of business. As a tech I > > can say I haven't seen any really new ones in a while. Never a PB PII or > > K6-2 machine. Whats the deal? Thier website is up and makes no mention > > of any trouble. > > they were bought up by NEC IIRC. i did see some PB models a few months ago > when i did onsite warranty work. to their credit, the latest models were > standard ATX form factor machines, but still cheaply made. > > DB Young ICQ: 29427634 > view the computers of yesteryear at > http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm > > --You can lead a whore to Vassar, but you can't make her think-- From Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Wed Apr 26 20:19:33 2000 From: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: Of course... a few more VMS questions... ;-) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000426201809.00a47100@mail.30below.com> References: <200004251917.PAA76780@bg-tc-ppp848.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000427111810.018c9240@kerberos.davies.net.au> At 08:18 PM 26-04-00 -0400, Roger Merchberger wrote: >And one other question which I've not found or figured out myself... How do >I get a directory listing of *just the subdirectories*? I've figured out >how to search for a particular filename or extension recursively thru the >subdirectories, but what's the VMS equivalent to DOS's dir /ad or linux's >ls -lAF|grep '/$' ??? What about $ dir *.dir or if you want more details $ dir/size=all/security *.dir From broth at heathers.stdio.com Wed Apr 26 21:02:05 2000 From: broth at heathers.stdio.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: Looking for TU56/Trade Message-ID: <39079F9D.CD960E19@heathers.stdio.com> My search continues for a TU56. If anybody knows where I can find one, I have many DEC and non-DEC items available for trade. I am also looking for 5 G-888 modules to fill out the empty spaces on my TC11. Thanks to all in advance, Brian. From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Apr 26 20:06:04 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: Of course... a few more VMS questions... ;-) Message-ID: <002801bfafe7$54ce36d0$7e64c0d0@ajp166> >Okay... I'm getting accustomed to the VMS directory structure, and have Dir dka0:[000000...] ;) >even installed a few apps from one of the CD's, which (of course) failed >the tail-end of the install due to my not having a DECUS membership number >yet (pending) or VMS hobbyist license (also pending, and will get right >after DECUS gets back to me.) Not failed, just not licensed. >Now, will that license be good for anything I install as far as software, >or will I have to get a license for every type of program I want to run? (I >sincerely hope the former... ;-) Mainly, I just want to do some C and >BASIC programming for now. that license covers a set of programs that happens to be on the hobbiest CD including C, Pascal, TCP/IP networking and a bunch of other things. VMS itself includes a fairly nice editor (TPU) and a raft of goodies. With DCL (command language{script}) you can do most anything. >And one other question which I've not found or figured out myself... How do >I get a directory listing of *just the subdirectories*? I've figured out >how to search for a particular filename or extension recursively thru the >subdirectories, but what's the VMS equivalent to DOS's dir /ad or linux's >ls -lAF|grep '/$' ??? {there are lexical functions in DCL with would do things that grep can do} Dir *.dir works! Directories have the extension .DIR. Dir [...]foo*.asm Will find anything in the current or subordinate directories that match that pattern. Dir [-]FOO??.A?M A ? is a single character wild card and the "[-]" says search the directory level above the current one. VMS directories start at [000000] and decend from there. so dir dka300:[000000] will get you the top level directoy of the SCSI drive on bus A with ID 3. Help dir will get you info. VMS is known for the rather rich set of operators that modify the basic action. My favorite device modifier... Set device=flamethrower/temperature:plasma You get the picture. I have a list of DCL functions, ailiases, and logicals that I use to make things friendlier. Most often used are: UP same as SET DEF [-] {cd ..} DO*WN decend to either list of availabile directories or create a new one. {only one level down from current} same asCD FOO or mkdir At some point once I have a web page going I should make the DCL scripts I use frequently available as they can be handy. No law says you can't create a ailias to do exactly what MKDIR, CD, REMDIR and friends do in the unix world. Implement them in DCL and insert the code/defs in the login.com file. Hint, system is a dangerous account like root. Create a user account with some privs as a safety net. Also every account should have a login.com which is like a DOS autoexec.bat though DCL is more powerful. Allison From djg at drs-esg.com Wed Apr 26 21:30:09 2000 From: djg at drs-esg.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: Focal Manual Message-ID: <200004270230.WAA18352@drs-esg.com> I have one on my web site http://www.pdp8.net/lang/index.shtml This is for the PS/8 Focal which also runs under OS/8 but is a little different in file operations than the Focal in the PDP-8 programming handbook. Scanning the programming handbook has been on the todo list for a while. I think the paper tape version should be a subset of this. The System User's Guide for PDP-8/I PDP-8/L and PDP-8 PDP-8/S PDP-5 also has a section on Focal. It seems to be missing from highgate so I have put it in http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~djg/ It appears that all the other links don't work any more but this page is only a temporary home until things get moved to the correct location. Looks like I need to check the highgate collection against mine to see what else didn't make it. David Gesswein From vaxman at uswest.net Wed Apr 26 21:38:12 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: Ahhh springtime..... In-Reply-To: <200004042013.PAA09162@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: When a young mans' heart turns to........ VAXes???? I have reached the conclusion (whilst sipping Captain Morgan's fine spiced rum) I am in dire need of a VAX 11/780.... If anyone hears of a working system being decommisioned (IE the console computer hasn't been removed), let me know... Within 500 miles of Denver, or maybe more if I feel like travelling... I am also looking for the following 11/750 printsets: L0006 - Remote diagnostic monitor L0008 - Patchable control store L0016 - Memory controller L0022 - Memory controller And the holy grail of 750 documentation: a VAX 11/750 Gate Array Reference Manual. For trade, I have a pair of PDP 11/02s in BA11 cases and dual TU58's from EBay (sorry chuck, I sniped the guy who sniped you :) and a few other things... Let me know, clint vaxman@uswest.net From charp at bitflash.com Wed Apr 26 22:25:58 2000 From: charp at bitflash.com (Frederic Charpentier) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: Details on Apollo Workstation (Ottawa) - Also Intergraph station & screen, DEC, etc.. Message-ID: Ok, here are the details for as much as I could figure them out (I am not too terribly familiar with the Apollo). It is an Apollo series 400, manufactured 9-14-90. This is an operational unit. The keyboard and screen (big) are present. There is a tape unit behind the front bay door. The backplane has tons of connectors, notably: - Lan - Parallel - SCSI - Thin Lan - RS-232 - Video board: A1416A (BNC RGB connectors) There are actually 2 screens close to this machine. The HP that I assume came with the unit, but there also is an Intergraph screen as a companion to a working Intergraph workstation.. All are in working order. I have no idea of the size of the the hard disk on the Apollo. I could investigate further if you are interested. This unit is sitting in a computer recycling building. It bears a price tag of $50 (canadian). The Intergraph is in the same price range. ---------------- The back of this building has a lot of big iron stuff. DEC, Honeywell, etc... There are some hard disk assemblies the size of a coffee table. Tons of packed and wrapped Gandalf chassis & communications equipment (Gandalf recently ceased activities in Ottawa - their stock obviously ended up in this warehouse.). Saw a number of MicroVax servers & workstations. Tons of Sparc workstations and cubes... Couple of fridge-size tape units. Cases of VAX-looking circuit boards. Most of the stuff looks in working order. There was a Silicon Graphics system there 2 days ago. Gone today... of course. And the list goes on. The stuff does not stay there very long. It ends up in a smleter for chmical and metal separation. Frederic From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Apr 26 22:35:09 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: Of course... a few more VMS questions... ;-) In-Reply-To: <002801bfafe7$54ce36d0$7e64c0d0@ajp166> from "allisonp" at Apr 26, 2000 09:06:04 PM Message-ID: <200004270335.UAA17916@shell1.aracnet.com> > >Okay... I'm getting accustomed to the VMS directory structure, and have > > Dir dka0:[000000...] ;) Oh, now that's mean ;^) Hmmm, might be fun though if not on a serial terminal... Since this looks educational, I recommend: DIR DKA0:[000000...]/OUTPUT=DKA100:[000000]DKA0LIST.TXT then TYPE/PAGE DKA100:[000000]DKA0LIST.TXT > that license covers a set of programs that happens to be on the hobbiest CD > including C, Pascal, TCP/IP networking and a bunch of other things. I believe just about any currently available language is available, and some rather odd stuff. ISTR, getting as much of the programming stuff into the hands of Hobbyists was one of the goals of the Hobbyist Program. > My favorite device modifier... > > Set device=flamethrower/temperature:plasma > > You get the picture. ? No, I don't. ? > Most often used are: > > UP same as SET DEF [-] {cd ..} Hey, I like that, now why didn't I think of that! Here are some examples from my LOGIN.COM, the /versions=1 means that they only list the most recent version of the file. On a nonclustered machine you would say DKA500 instead of $2$DKA500. $ unzip :== $$2$dka500:[bin]unzip.exe $ xfig == "@$2$DKA500:[BIN.XFIG32]XFIG.COM" $ define NNTPSERVER news.aracnet.com $ mxrn :== $$2$dka500:[bin]mxrn $ $ sd :== SET DEF $ home :== SET DEF SYS$LOGIN $ db :== DIR *.BAS/versions=1 $ dc :== DIR *.COM/versions=1 $ dd :== DIR *.DIR $ de :== DIR *.EXE/versions=1 $ dt :== DIR *.TXT/versions=1 $ dz :== DIR *.ZIP/versions=1 $ tips :== type sys$login:vms_tips.txt $ less :== type/page $ decus :== telnet eisner.decus.org $ cls :== type/page nl: > Hint, system is a dangerous account like root. Create a user account with > some privs as a safety net. Also every account should have a login.com > which is like a DOS autoexec.bat though DCL is more powerful. Warning stuffing to much stuff in LOGIN.COM on a system where you use DECwindows and open a lot of DECterms can be a real performance drag on slow systems. Zane From elvey at hal.com Wed Apr 26 22:32:39 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: latest ebay trash In-Reply-To: <000701bfaf91$5eef4100$350810ac@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <200004270332.UAA03641@civic.hal.com> Leaving_eBay___Clearance_Sale!!!__Last_Chance http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=318208006 I hope everyone either leaves this spam alone or uses a false name to bid it up to a ridiculous price. I was thinking of heading to the nearest library to do just that. Although a dutch auction, if enough junk bids come in, he'll never be able to find any real ones. Dwight From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Apr 27 00:04:26 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: Ahhh springtime..... In-Reply-To: References: <200004042013.PAA09162@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000427000426.3ee7cb98@mailhost.intellistar.net> Clint, I just helped unload a VAX 11/750 and a bunch of drives and other accessories at a surplus place Saturday. Everything looks like it's in good shape and I excpect the owner would sell the stuff for a very reasonable price. It's in Sanford, Florida if you're interested. The owner will not ship and I don't have the time or equipment to ship something this big so you'd have to come get it or find someone that can. (I didn't see any docs for it.) Joe At 08:38 PM 4/26/00 -0600, you wrote: > >When a young mans' heart turns to........ VAXes???? > > > >I have reached the conclusion (whilst sipping Captain Morgan's fine >spiced rum) I am in dire need of a VAX 11/780.... If anyone hears of >a working system being decommisioned (IE the console computer hasn't >been removed), let me know... Within 500 miles of Denver, or maybe >more if I feel like travelling... > >I am also looking for the following 11/750 printsets: > >L0006 - Remote diagnostic monitor >L0008 - Patchable control store >L0016 - Memory controller >L0022 - Memory controller > >And the holy grail of 750 documentation: a VAX 11/750 Gate Array >Reference Manual. > >For trade, I have a pair of PDP 11/02s in BA11 cases and dual TU58's >from EBay (sorry chuck, I sniped the guy who sniped you :) and a few >other things... > >Let me know, >clint >vaxman@uswest.net > > > > From nerdware at laidbak.com Thu Apr 27 00:12:04 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: Packard Bell dead? In-Reply-To: <200004261649.MAA22223@lexington.ioa.net> References: <000201bfaf99$abd0ace0$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: <200004270512.AAA21682@garcon.laidbak.com> From: technoid@cheta.net Date sent: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 12:47:56 -0400 To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Packard Bell dead? Send reply to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > I keep hearing rumors that Packard Bell is out of business. As a tech I > can say I haven't seen any really new ones in a while. Never a PB PII or > K6-2 machine. Whats the deal? Thier website is up and makes no mention > of any trouble. > Thankfully, PB is now officially dead. They had an auction a month or so back, and the entire Califonia plant/office was liquidated. This included inventory, components, chairs, lights, desks...... They tried to buy some reputation a couple of years back when they bought NEC, but a PB by any other name........ NEC continues on, I believe. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From mranalog at home.com Thu Apr 27 04:39:52 2000 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: New COSMAC stiff amd a VaxStation offer Message-ID: <39080AE8.83FB1566@home.com> "Mike" said: > Wow. UPS just delivered and opening the boxes was better than sex. = > Newly aquired: a complete COSMAC Development System IV. =20 > > Check out:=20 > http://users.leading.net/~dogas/classiccmp/cosmac/cosmac.htm > > Included with the pile were also about 65 original RCA documents = > covering Cosmac systems and options (that are listed in the above URL.) = > If anyone needs any related into looked up or copied... Mike, I just wanted to publicly, that this is damn nice of you to offer this information. I've been able to find plenty of information on all of my ELF computers, but the development systems is another story. I'll do the rest of my groveling offline. :) --Doug ==================================================== Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com (work) Sr. Software Eng. mranalog@home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ==================================================== From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Apr 27 07:57:06 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: Of course... a few more VMS questions... ;-) Message-ID: <000427085706.202006fc@trailing-edge.com> >$ unzip :== $$2$dka500:[bin]unzip.exe >$ xfig == "@$2$DKA500:[BIN.XFIG32]XFIG.COM" >$ mxrn :== $$2$dka500:[bin]mxrn Actually, you might want to do a HELP DEFINE and learn how to set up logicals. Hard-coded device names scattered throughout a bunch of command files are a pain in the rear when you later move stuff between disks or consolidate disks. Wouldn't you rather say DISK$BIN: than $$2$dka500: ? On a small system the advantage may not be so obvious, but when you've got a medium-sized VMScluster (a couple dozen CPU's, a few hundred disks), especially with a mix of Alpha and VAX CPU's, it really pays off. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 27 08:33:06 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: Of course... a few more VMS questions... ;-) In-Reply-To: <000427085706.202006fc@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > >$ unzip :== $$2$dka500:[bin]unzip.exe > >$ xfig == "@$2$DKA500:[BIN.XFIG32]XFIG.COM" > >$ mxrn :== $$2$dka500:[bin]mxrn > > Actually, you might want to do a HELP DEFINE and learn how to set > up logicals. Hard-coded device names scattered throughout a bunch of > command files are a pain in the rear when you later move stuff between > disks or consolidate disks. Wouldn't you rather say DISK$BIN: than > $$2$dka500: ? > > On a small system the advantage may not be so obvious, but when you've > got a medium-sized VMScluster (a couple dozen CPU's, a few hundred disks), > especially with a mix of Alpha and VAX CPU's, it really pays off. This is a good thing to do. Also login.com does nto have to be large. Most of my utilities are .coms that are pointed to or executed from login.com. It's well worth mentioning you can make sections of it so they do not execute if the login is non-interactive. The ability to define system logicals as well as account local logicals is a really handy aspect of VMS and can be used to make admin and user operations much easier. Allison From hallsf at alfredtech.edu Thu Apr 27 09:38:35 2000 From: hallsf at alfredtech.edu (Scott Hall) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: sgi.pi References: <000427085706.202006fc@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <390850EB.1D631834@alfredtech.edu> > A student of mine has a circa 1990 SGI Personal Iris with GR1.2 > graphics--apparently less than 8-bit. He wants to run Blender on it > and he'll need at least 8-bit graphics to do that. Anybody have a PI graphics board that's 8-bit or better to give or sell to him? Thanks, Scott F. Hall, Alfred, NY From ernestls at home.com Thu Apr 27 09:42:22 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: Opening CP/M files (.asm/.bas) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001bfb056$ccfa6060$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> It sounds like I'm probably using the wrong BASIC, from the suggestions that I've received. Thanks, by the way. So my next question would be, is there a way to find out which version of BASIC I should be using by looking at the program in a text editor, or something like that? I think that some of these programs may tell me in the introduction lines but I know that at least some of them don't. Also, what would be the reason that someone would distribute their programs in .ASM form, instead of in .COM form? Is this so that other people can edit or change them before they use them? That could be good, I guess but it seems like a lot of extra work for the end user (me.) These disks were produced by an old CP/M user group, and they are labeled by disk number (5a, 5b, 28a, 28b for example,) and they are a confusing mess. Some of the programs have files scattered between numerous disks, mixed in with bits and pieces of other programs. Sheesh. It's going to take some time to sort this headache out. I must be out of my mind. Ernest -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2000 10:20 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Opening CP/M files (.asm/.bas) > In Mbasic try: > LOAD "B:FILENAME.BAS" > then you can list/modify it. > Could also be that the .bas files are written for the other popular CP/M > basic : CBASIC. Or for a different version of the same BASIC. MBASIC 4.51 and MBASIC 5.03 had changes in their tokenizing. To convert between, the best way is to find the version of BASIC that's right for the file, load the file, and SAVE "B:FILENAME.BAS" ,A to save in full text rather than tokenized. you can then save again without the ,A from the new version. Or, there may any of a variety of other corruptions of the file. "Direct Statement in File" can come up from almost any line in the file that BASIC can't parse. > The .ASM files need to be compiled to run I think. If I recall the > assembler is called MASM on your system disk. It's called ASSEMBLED, although the difference between that and COMPILED would be of interest to few outside this list. MASM is the "Macro assembler". Look for ASM.COM on the system disk. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From rivie at teraglobal.com Thu Apr 27 09:51:58 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: Of course... a few more VMS questions... ;-) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000426201809.00a47100@mail.30below.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000426201809.00a47100@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: >And one other question which I've not found or figured out myself... How do >I get a directory listing of *just the subdirectories*? I've figured out >how to search for a particular filename or extension recursively thru the >subdirectories, but what's the VMS equivalent to DOS's dir /ad or linux's >ls -lAF|grep '/$' ??? Try "dir *.dir". -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From rivie at teraglobal.com Thu Apr 27 09:53:11 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: Of course... a few more VMS questions... ;-) In-Reply-To: <002801bfafe7$54ce36d0$7e64c0d0@ajp166> References: <002801bfafe7$54ce36d0$7e64c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: >Dir [-]FOO??.A?M A ? is a single character wild card and the "[-]" says >search >the directory level above the current one. Sorry, Allison, the single character wildcard in VMS is %. -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Thu Apr 27 10:00:05 2000 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: sgi.pi In-Reply-To: <390850EB.1D631834@alfredtech.edu> from Scott Hall at "Apr 27, 2000 10:38:35 am" Message-ID: <20000427150014Z433134-4540+110@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > > A student of mine has a circa 1990 SGI Personal Iris with GR1.2 > > graphics--apparently less than 8-bit. He wants to run Blender on it > > and he'll need at least 8-bit graphics to do that. > > Anybody have a PI graphics board that's 8-bit or better to give or sell > to him? > There's something wrong here. I know of no SGI with less than 8 bits of graphics, all the PIs have at least 8 bit graphics, and most of them have 24. So the problem must be somewhere else. Here are a few things to look into: 1) Which version of the OS is it running? Some of the earlier versions of IRIX used some of the bits for window management. 2) I don't know anything about blender, but is it expecting OpenGL? The PI series doesn't run OpenGL, they run IRIS GL, which isn't compatible with OpenGL. This could be where the problem is occuring. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From KB9VU at aol.com Thu Apr 27 10:00:55 2000 From: KB9VU at aol.com (KB9VU@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: Opening CP/M files (.asm/.bas) Message-ID: <9.4bf6acb.2639b027@aol.com> In a message dated 4/27/00 09:54:59 Central Daylight Time, ernestls@home.com writes: > These disks were produced by an old CP/M user group, and they are labeled by > disk number (5a, 5b, 28a, 28b for example,) and they are a confusing mess. > Some of the programs have files scattered between numerous disks, mixed in > with bits and pieces of other programs. Sheesh. It's going to take some > time to sort this headache out. I must be out of my mind. > > Ernest If the old CPMUG is still functioning (I think it is), get a copy of their catalog. Most of the public domain stuff was in that data base at one time. I bought some disks from them in 1996 so I know they were still around them. There was a CPMUG on Compuserve also. Try that bunch for sure as they had several folks knowledgable in CP/M 2.2 and CP/M 3.0. Good Luck. Mike From sipke at wxs.nl Thu Apr 27 11:24:45 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: Opening CP/M files (.asm/.bas) References: <000001bfb056$ccfa6060$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: <007001bfb065$1a053e80$030101ac@boll.casema.net> It's been awhile since I did some real CP/M hacking so my memory of that era may not be flawless................... ----- Original Message ----- From: Ernest To: Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 4:42 PM Subject: RE: Opening CP/M files (.asm/.bas) > It sounds like I'm probably using the wrong BASIC, from the suggestions that > I've received. Thanks, by the way. So my next question would be, is there a > way to find out which version of BASIC I should be using by looking at the > program in a text editor, or something like that? I think that some of these > programs may tell me in the introduction lines but I know that at least some > of them don't. Could you send me the BASIC program offline so I can take a look at it ? There have been so many basic versions on the CP/M platform besides MBASIC like CBASIC, SBASIC etc..... I would hope that it is in ASCII-format > Also, what would be the reason that someone would distribute their programs > in .ASM form, instead of in .COM form? Is this so that other people can edit > or change them before they use them? CP/M systems were not very compatible among themselves and some programs had to be changed a bit before they would function on the target system. This is especially true if the program needed to access I/O-devices. If you got the ASM "source code" you could essentially make any alterations you needed for your system. Sometimes these options would be given in the comments along with the sourcecode. ASM.COM and the LOAD.COM program were part of the CP/M packet so assembling the sourcecode was not considered a problem in those days. A lot of people did assembly language. The only problem was that ASM.COM would use 8080 assembly language and ZASM of M80 would use Z80 assembly language. A lot of later CP/M systems had a Z80 instead of an 8080/8085 chip and although the 8080 is downward compatible on the objectcode level (the true machine instructions level) The Z80 assembly language is VERY different from 8080 Assembly language. So if you have ASM files you still have to determine what kind of an assembler you would need to "compile"your code. A filename extension like .ASM would hint in the direction of the standard 8080 assembler. I.E: in register load operations you would see the "MOV" opcode instead of the Z80 "LD" command. > > These disks were produced by an old CP/M user group, and they are labeled by > disk number (5a, 5b, 28a, 28b for example,) and they are a confusing mess. > Some of the programs have files scattered between numerous disks, mixed in > with bits and pieces of other programs. Sheesh. It's going to take some > time to sort this headache out. I must be out of my mind. > There are quite a few decent CP/M emulators for the PC. like MYZ80 and others. If you could transfer your disks to a PC then you could start to reorganize and test those programs on your PC with the added benefit of a large HD with directories to sort things out. You won't see these directories when in CP/M emulation mode but you can always go back to DOS or WINDOZ and reorganise the stuff. An added benefit would be the fact that you would also have a backup of those disks. This is also practical with regard to the availability of nice ASCII-editor on the MS-DOS platform. I don't know from the top of my head where to get these emulators but it should not be difficult to find them. Also look for a "22dsk144" utility that could read (and maybe write) various CP/M floppies (provided you'll hook up an 1.2 MB or 360KB 5.25" Floppydrive to your PC) Sipke de Wal sipke@wxs.nl From edick at idcomm.com Thu Apr 27 10:32:36 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: Opening CP/M files (.asm/.bas) References: <9.4bf6acb.2639b027@aol.com> Message-ID: <002801bfb05d$d146fa00$0400c0a8@winbook> The numbers look like some of those on several dozen diskettes I've got, from the CP/M SIG or CPMUG. There is an index, and it should shed some light on the dialect and version of the BASIC programs, etc. Unfortunately, this index is a separate file. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 9:00 AM Subject: Re: Opening CP/M files (.asm/.bas) > In a message dated 4/27/00 09:54:59 Central Daylight Time, ernestls@home.com > writes: > > > These disks were produced by an old CP/M user group, and they are labeled by > > disk number (5a, 5b, 28a, 28b for example,) and they are a confusing mess. > > Some of the programs have files scattered between numerous disks, mixed in > > with bits and pieces of other programs. Sheesh. It's going to take some > > time to sort this headache out. I must be out of my mind. > > > > Ernest > > If the old CPMUG is still functioning (I think it is), get a copy of their > catalog. Most of the public domain stuff was in that data base at one time. > I bought some disks from them in 1996 so I know they were still around them. > There was a CPMUG on Compuserve also. Try that bunch for sure as they had > several folks knowledgable in CP/M 2.2 and CP/M 3.0. > > Good Luck. > > Mike > From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 27 10:35:56 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:07 2005 Subject: Opening CP/M files (.asm/.bas) In-Reply-To: <000001bfb056$ccfa6060$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: > Also, what would be the reason that someone would distribute their programs > in .ASM form, instead of in .COM form? Is this so that other people can edit > or change them before they use them? That could be good, I guess but it > seems like a lot of extra work for the end user (me.) Exactly, not everyone out there is paranoid of giving away source code. > These disks were produced by an old CP/M user group, and they are labeled by > disk number (5a, 5b, 28a, 28b for example,) and they are a confusing mess. > Some of the programs have files scattered between numerous disks, mixed in > with bits and pieces of other programs. Sheesh. It's going to take some > time to sort this headache out. I must be out of my mind. Usually those files are compressed archives, you may need LHA, DELBR, unarc or other tools to "open" them. I may add most of the files you'd find are on the WC cdrom (or the online copies of it.). The organization of those disks were likely by date of issue. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 27 10:37:13 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: Of course... a few more VMS questions... ;-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >Dir [-]FOO??.A?M A ? is a single character wild card and the "[-]" says > >search the directory level above the current one. > > Sorry, Allison, the single character wildcard in VMS is %. Try ?, it works. I think however it's not supported in DCL scripts. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 27 10:39:12 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: Opening CP/M files (.asm/.bas) In-Reply-To: <9.4bf6acb.2639b027@aol.com> Message-ID: > If the old CPMUG is still functioning (I think it is), get a copy of their > catalog. Most of the public domain stuff was in that data base at one time. > I bought some disks from them in 1996 so I know they were still around them. > There was a CPMUG on Compuserve also. Try that bunch for sure as they had > several folks knowledgable in CP/M 2.2 and CP/M 3.0. The WC cdrom has the CPMUG catalogs and vols. Allison From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Thu Apr 27 11:44:48 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: Can a Mac Portable battery be "trickle charged"? Message-ID: <014b01bfb067$e6bf9ae0$0200a8c0@marvin> Hi. I've recently acquired an original Macintosh Portable, without any of the accompanying paraphenalia, most notably the AC adapter. I'm currently hunting for a PowerBook 1xx adapter, which I'm told is usable with the Portable, but in the meantime, I'm looking for other ways to fire up this new Mac to check it out. According to the specs, the Portable AC adapter is 1.5 amps at 7.5 volts, center positive. I have one of those "universal" AC adapters that can do 7.5 V, but only 300 mA. If I plug in this adapter to the Portable, will the internal battery eventually obtain a usable charge (assuming it's not totally dead, as so many are)? Any suggestions gratefully received. Mark Gregory From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 27 11:56:27 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: Of course... a few more VMS questions... ;-) In-Reply-To: <000427085706.202006fc@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: >>$ unzip :== $$2$dka500:[bin]unzip.exe >>$ xfig == "@$2$DKA500:[BIN.XFIG32]XFIG.COM" >>$ mxrn :== $$2$dka500:[bin]mxrn > >Actually, you might want to do a HELP DEFINE and learn how to set >up logicals. Hard-coded device names scattered throughout a bunch of >command files are a pain in the rear when you later move stuff between >disks or consolidate disks. Wouldn't you rather say DISK$BIN: than >$$2$dka500: ? > >On a small system the advantage may not be so obvious, but when you've >got a medium-sized VMScluster (a couple dozen CPU's, a few hundred disks), >especially with a mix of Alpha and VAX CPU's, it really pays off. I totally agree. Of course I didn't realize that until last night after writing that :^) Right now I'm just a small cluster, and primarily Alpha. However, I'm getting ready to add a couple more VAXen (currenlty only a MV3 is in the mix and it's only used for one small task), and I happened to think, the above just won't work with mixed architectures. Off the top of my head I believe you're talking about doing the following in SYLOGICALS.COM DEFINE/SYSTEM DISK$BIN $2$DKA500:[bin.] Of course then I'll need to move any programs in [bin] to a subdirectory. Guess I should spend more time reading the User and Clustering manuals, this is obviously messed up. It looks like [bin] should actually be [alpha] and [vax] with a [.bin] under that. That way I can have the system set DISK$BIN, and everything be transparent to the LOGIN.COM. Oh, well, guess I didn't have anything better to do this morning... Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rivie at teraglobal.com Thu Apr 27 11:56:28 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: Of course... a few more VMS questions... ;-) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > >Dir [-]FOO??.A?M A ? is a single character wild card and the "[-]" says > > >search the directory level above the current one. > > > > Sorry, Allison, the single character wildcard in VMS is %. > >Try ?, it works. I think however it's not supported in DCL scripts. OpenVMS Alpha on SNEEZY Username: ivie Password: Welcome to OpenVMS (TM) Alpha Operating System, Version V7.1 on node SNEEZY Last interactive login on Thursday, 27-APR-2000 09:47:31.93 Last non-interactive login on Friday, 25-FEB-2000 10:26:56.96 You have 1 new Mail message. Your balance as of last update is -2434.92 $ dir *.? %DCL-W-PARMDEL, invalid parameter delimiter - check use of special characters \?\ $ -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From hallsf at alfredtech.edu Thu Apr 27 12:08:42 2000 From: hallsf at alfredtech.edu (Scott Hall) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: sgi.pi References: <20000427150014Z433134-4540+110@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <3908741A.D0BB12A1@alfredtech.edu> Thanks for the reply, Mark. This PI is on circa 1994 Irix 5.3. Nope, this cut of Blender is IrisGL, so I don't think that's it. Certain stock Irix 5.3 demos don't work. Launching the MahJong is fine, so is the flight sim. Launching the mandelbrot fractal maker is a no go--says 24-bit is needed. The Porsche driving sim. comes up but puts up an error message that says "gconfig: not enough bitplanes for RGB mode." Scott Hall, Alfred, NY Mark Green wrote: > > > A student of mine has a circa 1990 SGI Personal Iris with GR1.2 > > > graphics--apparently less than 8-bit. He wants to run Blender on > it > > > and he'll need at least 8-bit graphics to do > that. > > > > Anybody have a PI graphics board that's 8-bit or better to give or > sell > > to him? > > > > There's something wrong here. I know of no SGI with less > than 8 bits of graphics, all the PIs have at least 8 bit > graphics, and most of them have 24. So the problem must > be somewhere else. > > Here are a few things to look into: > > 1) Which version of the OS is it running? Some of the earlier > versions of IRIX used some of the bits for window management. > > 2) I don't know anything about blender, but is it expecting > OpenGL? The PI series doesn't run OpenGL, they run IRIS GL, > which isn't compatible with OpenGL. This could be where > the problem is occuring. > > -- > Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca > Professor (780) 492-4584 > Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) > Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) > University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Thu Apr 27 12:27:14 2000 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: sgi.pi In-Reply-To: <3908741A.D0BB12A1@alfredtech.edu> from Scott Hall at "Apr 27, 2000 01:08:42 pm" Message-ID: <20000427174558Z433954-4442+6@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > Thanks for the reply, Mark. This PI is on circa 1994 Irix 5.3. Nope, > this cut of Blender is IrisGL, so I don't think that's it. > > Certain stock Irix 5.3 demos don't work. Launching the MahJong is fine, > so is the flight sim. Launching the mandelbrot fractal maker is a no > go--says 24-bit is needed. The Porsche driving sim. comes up but puts > up an error message that says "gconfig: not enough bitplanes for RGB > mode." > The machine configuration should be okay. Are you sure that blender will run in 8 bits. It might require 24 bits to run. Try running /usr/gfx/gfxinfo and see what it says about the graphics configuration. There is the possibility that the X server isn't set up correctly. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 27 12:48:10 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: Of course... a few more VMS questions... ;-) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> > >Dir [-]FOO??.A?M A ? is a single character wild card and the "[-]" says >> > >search the directory level above the current one. >> > >> > Sorry, Allison, the single character wildcard in VMS is %. >> >>Try ?, it works. I think however it's not supported in DCL scripts. > > OpenVMS Alpha on SNEEZY >$ dir *.? >%DCL-W-PARMDEL, invalid parameter delimiter - check use of special characters > \?\ I was thinking this might be a Alpha thing, so I just tried it on both a VAX and a Alpha, with both running V7.2. Didn't work on either for me either. Out of curiuosity what verion are you running Allison? Looks like it might be a version thing. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 27 13:21:12 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: Of course... a few more VMS questions... ;-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > $ dir *.? > %DCL-W-PARMDEL, invalid parameter delimiter - check use of special characters > \?\ Works for my V5.4 node. Never tried that under 7.x. allison From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Apr 27 13:36:16 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: sgi.pi In-Reply-To: Scott Hall "Re: sgi.pi" (Apr 27, 13:08) References: <20000427150014Z433134-4540+110@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> <3908741A.D0BB12A1@alfredtech.edu> Message-ID: <10004271936.ZM16835@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 27, 13:08, Scott Hall wrote: > Thanks for the reply, Mark. This PI is on circa 1994 Irix 5.3. Nope, > this cut of Blender is IrisGL, so I don't think that's it. > > Certain stock Irix 5.3 demos don't work. Launching the MahJong is fine, > so is the flight sim. Launching the mandelbrot fractal maker is a no > go--says 24-bit is needed. The Porsche driving sim. comes up but puts > up an error message that says "gconfig: not enough bitplanes for RGB > mode." Some of the demos are intended specifically to show off capabilities, or demonstrate how to program, the 24-bit or Z-buffered systems, so I wouldn't expect them all to work or even compile on an entry-level graphics system (if you only have entry-level graphics, some of the headers and libraries will not be there). > Mark Green wrote: > > > > > A student of mine has a circa 1990 SGI Personal Iris with GR1.2 > > > > graphics--apparently less than 8-bit. He wants to run Blender on > > it > > > > and he'll need at least 8-bit graphics to do > > that. > > > > > > Anybody have a PI graphics board that's 8-bit or better to give or > > sell > > > to him? > > > > > > > There's something wrong here. I know of no SGI with less > > than 8 bits of graphics, all the PIs have at least 8 bit > > graphics, and most of them have 24. So the problem must > > be somewhere else. Mark is right: GR1.2 is 8-bit. Some GR1.2 boards are apparently upgradable to TG (the next level), if the big chip in the middle is socketed rather than soldered (you replace it with a TG piggyback board). I *think* all versions can be upgraded to 24-bit. Whether you'd find an upgrade now is another matter, of course. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Apr 27 14:52:14 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: Can a Mac Portable battery be "trickle charged"? In-Reply-To: <014b01bfb067$e6bf9ae0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000427145214.33afd30a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi Mark, I recently picked up two Mac Portables. I opened them up and checked the batteries. They use a six volt lead acid job (3 X-cells in series). You should be able to trickle charge it with no problems EXCEPT that lead acid cells are very unforgiving about being left dead for any period of time. If they are left dead they will quickly develop a sulphate coating on the plates and will no longer take a charge. You can apply voltage to the battery but it wouldn't draw any current. That's what has happened to the batteries in both of mine and I'd bet that your's has done the same thing. You can connect the battery directly to a power supply and check it. Joe At 10:44 AM 4/27/00 -0600, you wrote: >Hi. I've recently acquired an original Macintosh Portable, without any of >the accompanying paraphenalia, most notably the AC adapter. I'm currently >hunting for a PowerBook 1xx adapter, which I'm told is usable with the >Portable, but in the meantime, I'm looking for other ways to fire up this >new Mac to check it out. > >According to the specs, the Portable AC adapter is 1.5 amps at 7.5 volts, >center positive. >I have one of those "universal" AC adapters that can do 7.5 V, but only 300 >mA. If I plug in this adapter to the Portable, will the internal battery >eventually obtain a usable charge (assuming it's not totally dead, as so >many are)? > >Any suggestions gratefully received. > >Mark Gregory > > From flo at rdel.co.uk Thu Apr 27 14:11:01 2000 From: flo at rdel.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: Of course... a few more VMS questions... ;-) References: Message-ID: <390890C5.4D667562@rdel.co.uk> Roger Ivie wrote: > > $ dir *.? > %DCL-W-PARMDEL, invalid parameter delimiter - check use of special characters > \?\ > $ That's interesting. Do angle brackets still work in directory specs? That is, DIR <...> ? From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 27 14:36:12 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: Of course... a few more VMS questions... ;-) In-Reply-To: <390890C5.4D667562@rdel.co.uk> Message-ID: > Roger Ivie wrote: > > > > $ dir *.? > > %DCL-W-PARMDEL, invalid parameter delimiter - check use of special characters > > \?\ > > $ > > That's interesting. Do angle brackets still work in directory specs? > That is, DIR <...> ? No. The ? may be a holdover from earlier RSTS, RSX and RT11. Allison From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 27 14:46:45 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: Of course... a few more VMS questions... ;-) In-Reply-To: <390890C5.4D667562@rdel.co.uk> References: Message-ID: >That's interesting. Do angle brackets still work in directory specs? >That is, DIR <...> ? $ dir Directory DKA500: BIN.DIR;1 Total of 1 file. $ Didn't feel like trying <...> :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 27 15:26:15 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: Can a Mac Portable battery be "trickle charged"? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000427145214.33afd30a@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Apr 27, 0 02:52:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1736 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000427/10825c37/attachment.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Apr 27 15:50:59 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: Of course... a few more VMS questions... ;-) Message-ID: <000427165059.20200761@trailing-edge.com> Allison wrote: >> Roger Ivie wrote: >> > >> > $ dir *.? >> > %DCL-W-PARMDEL, invalid parameter delimiter - check use of special characters >> > \?\ >> > $ >> >> That's interesting. Do angle brackets still work in directory specs? >> That is, DIR <...> ? > >No. Huh? Angle brackets certainly do still work: $ DIR/GRAND/SIZ=ALL <...> Grand total of 7342 directories, 128634 files, 9436890/9477680 blocks. > The ? may be a holdover from earlier RSTS, RSX and RT11. Huh? Booting into RT-11, I find that the CSI won't even take "?"'s on a command line: Starting system from DU3 RT-11ZM (S) V05.07 .DIR ??????.??? ?KMON-F-Invalid command In RT-11 the single-charcter wildcard is "%". A similar error message comes from RSX, where the single-character wildcard is "%" as well. I don't know too much about RSTS (as opposed to RSTS/E). The only PDP-11 operating system I know that uses "?" for single-character wildcarding is XXDP (if you want to call it an OS...) DOS-11 might take it too. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Apr 27 16:14:04 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: Can a Mac Portable battery be "trickle charged"? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000427145214.33afd30a@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Apr 27, 0 02:52:14 pm Message-ID: >One thing I have found very useful for making up non-standard lead acid >batteries is 'cyclon' cells. These are individual 2V lead-acid cells. And I think those are what the Portable is using to start with, so a new battery pack is fairly "easy". A place in northern california rebuilds old packs for about $50, but wants a fair amount for a "core" pack if you don't have one. Ebay has all this stuff of course, including the power adapter, one of which I think I may have. IIRC the portable "floats" the voltage on the battery pack for regulation, and running without batteries or a bad pack can cause trouble. I would be VERY cautious using anything but the original AC adapter. I had a brand new printer fry on the first paper jam when the power supply I was using failed to current limit like the wimpy factory unit. From rivie at teraglobal.com Thu Apr 27 16:34:26 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: Of course... a few more VMS questions... ;-) In-Reply-To: <000427165059.20200761@trailing-edge.com> References: <000427165059.20200761@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: >The only PDP-11 operating system I know that uses "?" for single-character >wildcarding is XXDP (if you want to call it an OS...) DOS-11 might take >it too. I'm fairly certain OS/8 does, but I have neither a PDP-8 nor any documentation handy at the moment to check it out. -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From af-list at wfi-inc.com Thu Apr 27 16:52:01 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: Kind-of OT (but interesting): Raymond Scott Message-ID: There is a 2 CD compilation of Raymond Scott's electronic works (from the 50's and 60's) being released, which can be had before the official release date through raymondscott.com. Thought there'd be more than a few people on this list interested - my copy's on it's way. If you don't remember who he is, he's the guy who wrote all that cool Warner Brother's cartoon music, like Powerhouse and Dinner Music for a Pack of Hungry Cannibals. For those not interested in experimental electronic music (and to stay slightly on topic for the list), he inadvertantly contributed to computers as well with several patents on magnetic tape positioning equipment and sound generators. I know that IBM, HP, Atari, and others used his ideas in their own designs, sometimes years after he implemented them. Cheers, Aaron From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Thu Apr 27 17:04:42 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: Of course... a few more VMS questions... ;-) In-Reply-To: <000427165059.20200761@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <000301bfb094$98044bd0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> >> That is, DIR <...> ? Can I be curious? I left off I think (1988) before angle brackets came in to existence, or at least in use at my office. >> What << do they do? John A. From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Wed Apr 26 18:12:37 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: Can a Mac Portable battery be "trickle charged"? Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Apr 2000 21:26:15 +0100 (BST) Tony Duell wrote: > Tell me about it :-). I've never managed to recover a lead-acid battery > that's been discharged and then left -- there's no 'zapping'-type trick > that works. If anyone has any ideas on recovery methods, I'd be > interested to hear them. I have a World-War-II era book called "Accumulator Charging", which goes into some detail on lead-acid batteries. I expect it'll say what to do, but it may also assume that you're willing and able to dismantle the battery, fix it and then reassemble -- in the case of a 12V battery, repeat for all six cells! I'll dig out the book and take a look -- I won't be able to supply an ISBN, though, because it's too old for that sort of thing! -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From technoid at cheta.net Thu Apr 27 17:04:28 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: Opening CP/M files (.asm/.bas) In-Reply-To: <000001bfb056$ccfa6060$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: <200004272209.SAA05318@lexington.ioa.net> Cp/M was a cross-platform operating system with several layers to provide support for any platform for which the base functions of CP/M were compiled. In other words, if your machine boots cp/m then you can run the vast majority of CP/M programs. Some you won't. A good example of a situation in which a program cannot run is if it takes advantage of non-standard system calls to access the video subsystem. There are quite a few of these programs but most are commercial such as CPT system accounting, spreadsheet and word processing. The CPT had a very custom full-page physical display. Elsewise most all programs should compile and run but do need to be compiled on YOUR particular architecture machine to function. Probably the most important setting in CP/M is your terminal settings. CP/M software will run on anything but does have to be informed as to what termninal type (ie ADM3a, Soroc, Televideo, Etcetera) in order to operate correctly. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From technoid at cheta.net Thu Apr 27 17:11:46 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: Genuine ADM3/a terminal Available at Computer Parts Barn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200004272210.SAA05572@lexington.ioa.net> The real article. Never laid eyes on one myself until I bumped into one at CPB. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From marvin at rain.org Thu Apr 27 17:12:47 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: PKZips Phil Katz dead References: Message-ID: <3908BB5F.4D863C0E@rain.org> I just received this notice from a friend of mine. This was the first notice I had seen. Anyone know any more of the details? This appears to be a revisionist report with regard to why Pkzip was created. I still have some of the email (somewhere) that circulated from both Katz and the creators of ARC when the creators of ARC sued Katz for IIRC having something to do with PKARC not being 100% compatible with the widely used ARC compressions scheme used. ------------------- PKzip Creator dies . . . "Phillip W. Katz died of complications from chronic alcoholism, according to the Milwaulkee medical examiner’s records. Katz’s file-compression software is used around the world. 'In early days, compression was all done with software because there was no hardware to do this stuff,' said computer science professor Leonard Levine at the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee. 'So Katz put together a program called PKZip, the Phil Katz zip program. ' The compression software made communication between computers faster and less expensive." Of all the 'programs' on the planet, PKUnZip has to be one of the more well-known binaries . From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Apr 27 17:32:48 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: Of course... a few more VMS questions... ;-) Message-ID: <000427183248.20200761@trailing-edge.com> >> That is, DIR <...> ? > >Can I be curious? I left off I think (1988) before angle brackets >came in to existence, or at least in use at my office. They're compatible with the more conventional "[" and "]" brackets for specifying directories in VMS. The general concensus seems to be that they were put in so folks migrating from TOPS-20 (where angle brackets are the standard way of specifying directories) would be more comfortable. Tim. From marvin at rain.org Thu Apr 27 17:38:07 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: Wordstar References: <200004272210.SAA05572@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <3908C14F.A1E2713B@rain.org> Anyone still remember Wordstar :). I received this URL that has info, updates, etc. for those people that still use it. http://www.glinx.com/%7Egrifwood/WordStar.html From jhfine at idirect.com Thu Apr 27 17:43:08 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: Genuine ADM3/a terminal Available at Computer Parts Barn References: <200004272210.SAA05572@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <3908C27C.31F26D64@idirect.com> >technoid@cheta.net wrote: > The real article. Never laid eyes on one myself until I bumped into one > at CPB. Jerome Fine replies: How can we get in touch with the CPB? From af-list at wfi-inc.com Thu Apr 27 17:46:04 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: PKZips Phil Katz dead In-Reply-To: <3908BB5F.4D863C0E@rain.org> Message-ID: http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/tech/DailyNews/pkzip000422.html On Thu, 27 Apr 2000, Marvin wrote: > > I just received this notice from a friend of mine. This was the first notice > I had seen. Anyone know any more of the details? > > This appears to be a revisionist report with regard to why Pkzip was > created. I still have some of the email (somewhere) that circulated from > both Katz and the creators of ARC when the creators of ARC sued Katz for > IIRC having something to do with PKARC not being 100% compatible with the > widely used ARC compressions scheme used. > > ------------------- > > PKzip Creator dies . . . > "Phillip W. Katz died of complications from chronic alcoholism, according to > the Milwaulkee medical examiner’s records. Katz’s file-compression software > is used > around the world. 'In early days, compression was all done with software > because there was no hardware to do this stuff,' said computer science > professor Leonard Levine at the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee. 'So Katz > put together a program called PKZip, the Phil Katz zip program. ' The > compression software made communication between computers faster and less > expensive." Of all the 'programs' on the planet, PKUnZip has to be one of > the more well-known binaries . > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 27 17:39:27 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: Can a Mac Portable battery be "trickle charged"? In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Apr 27, 0 02:14:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2875 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000427/6403ac20/attachment.ksh From rhblake at bigfoot.com Thu Apr 27 18:15:53 2000 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: PKZips Phil Katz dead References: <3908BB5F.4D863C0E@rain.org> Message-ID: <3908CA28.779FC1FC@bigfoot.com> It was on the fornt page yesterday (4/26) of Windrivers.com's home page. I always thought he was older than me but it seems I'm 6 years older - he is/was just 37 at passing. As for the alcoholism I think it's just a part of the basement programmer's life he chose since he's shown signs back even in the DOS days of having substance and/or personality problems. Marvin wrote: > I just received this notice from a friend of mine. This was the first notice > I had seen. Anyone know any more of the details? > > This appears to be a revisionist report with regard to why Pkzip was > created. I still have some of the email (somewhere) that circulated from > both Katz and the creators of ARC when the creators of ARC sued Katz for > IIRC having something to do with PKARC not being 100% compatible with the > widely used ARC compressions scheme used. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 27 17:50:19 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: Can a Mac Portable battery be "trickle charged"? In-Reply-To: from "John Honniball" at Apr 27, 0 00:12:37 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1672 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000427/569aa474/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Apr 27 17:55:13 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: Opening CP/M files (.asm/.bas) Message-ID: <004301bfb09d$03629690$6c64c0d0@ajp166> >Cp/M was a cross-platform operating system with several layers to provide >support for any platform for which the base functions of CP/M were >compiled. In other words, if your machine boots cp/m then you can run the >vast majority of CP/M programs. Some you won't. A good example of a >situation in which a program cannot run is if it takes advantage of >non-standard system calls to access the video subsystem. There are quite >a few of these programs but most are commercial such as CPT system >accounting, spreadsheet and word processing. The CPT had a very custom >full-page physical display. Well thats only true if unique BIOS calls or direct IO was done. If you used the standard BDOS calls then compatability was assured save for sillyness like terminal control sequences. The worst offenders for this were the modem programs as they needed speed and CPM could but often didn't have interrupt driven IO or IOBYTE implemented. >Probably the most important setting in CP/M is your terminal settings. >CP/M software will run on anything but does have to be informed as to what >termninal type (ie ADM3a, Soroc, Televideo, Etcetera) in order to operate >correctly. -- Often taken care of in the install program. From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Apr 27 19:23:52 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: Of course... a few more VMS questions... ;-) In-Reply-To: <000427165059.20200761@trailing-edge.com>; from CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com on Thu, Apr 27, 2000 at 04:50:59PM -0400 References: <000427165059.20200761@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20000427202352.A4513@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Apr 27, 2000 at 04:50:59PM -0400, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > The only PDP-11 operating system I know that uses "?" for single-character > wildcarding is XXDP (if you want to call it an OS...) DOS-11 might take > it too. "?" is the single-character wildcard in RSTS. Actually, it's the *only* true wildcard character in RSTS, "*" is converted to question marks by .FSS. The .RAD50 value for ? is the same as what RSX/RT call "%" though. But RSTS already uses "%" as a single-character logical name for [1,4]. DOS/BATCH PIP (V10-03A) doesn't seem to like *either* % or ?, only *, and it appears to have to occupy the whole field (e.g. *.LDA or EDIT.* are OK but not E*.LDA). Haven't tried digging through the docs though -- there's another "phone book"! John Wilson D Bit From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Apr 27 19:25:51 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: Of course... a few more VMS questions... ;-) In-Reply-To: <000427183248.20200761@trailing-edge.com>; from CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com on Thu, Apr 27, 2000 at 06:32:48PM -0400 References: <000427183248.20200761@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20000427202551.B4513@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Apr 27, 2000 at 06:32:48PM -0400, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > They're compatible with the more conventional "[" and "]" brackets for > specifying directories in VMS. The general concensus seems to be that they > were put in so folks migrating from TOPS-20 (where angle brackets are the > standard way of specifying directories) would be more comfortable. ... which I assume is also the reason why both VMS and RSX allow "." in place of ";" when specifying a file's version number, since that's what Twenex does. John Wilson D Bit From marvin at rain.org Thu Apr 27 19:24:40 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: AOL Disks Collectable References: <3908BB5F.4D863C0E@rain.org> <3908CA28.779FC1FC@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: <3908DA48.50CFBF84@rain.org> A friend of mine just sent me an article describing AOL Disks as being collectable from the Seattle Times. I have been saving and collecting them for a while having a feeling that they would become collectors items. The article describes some AOL 2.0 shrinkwrapped disks being sold for $102. And Sellam is also mentioned in the article. Now lets see, my retirement is shaping up nicely :). From jim at calico.litterbox.com Thu Apr 27 19:24:51 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: PKZips Phil Katz dead In-Reply-To: <3908CA28.779FC1FC@bigfoot.com> from "Russ Blakeman" at Apr 27, 2000 06:15:53 PM Message-ID: <200004280024.SAA15511@calico.litterbox.com> > Marvin wrote: > > > I just received this notice from a friend of mine. This was the first notice > > I had seen. Anyone know any more of the details? > > > > This appears to be a revisionist report with regard to why Pkzip was > > created. I still have some of the email (somewhere) that circulated from > > both Katz and the creators of ARC when the creators of ARC sued Katz for > > IIRC having something to do with PKARC not being 100% compatible with the > > widely used ARC compressions scheme used. I think the ARC people sued him because he hadn't licenced their compression algorythm. This goes back to my BBS days, but if memory serves, ARC sued him, he wrote PKZIP, and within a year ARC was no longer the defacto standard for BBS's. I believe the company that wrote ARC is now extinct. Serves them right. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 27 20:01:07 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: AOL Disks Collectable In-Reply-To: <3908DA48.50CFBF84@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Apr 27, 2000 05:24:40 PM Message-ID: <200004280101.SAA22108@shell1.aracnet.com> > A friend of mine just sent me an article describing AOL Disks as being > collectable from the Seattle Times. I have been saving and collecting them You know with news like that I'm thinking of heading out into the wilderness and becoming a hermit. Please stop the World and let me off, the world truely has gone crazy! Someone mind explaining what possible reason *ANYONE* could have for wanting to collect AOL disks! Zane From transit at lerctr.org Thu Apr 27 21:05:55 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: PKZips Phil Katz dead In-Reply-To: <200004280024.SAA15511@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Apr 2000, Jim Strickland wrote: > > Marvin wrote: > > > > > I just received this notice from a friend of mine. This was the first notice > > > I had seen. Anyone know any more of the details? > > > > > > This appears to be a revisionist report with regard to why Pkzip was > > > created. I still have some of the email (somewhere) that circulated from > > > both Katz and the creators of ARC when the creators of ARC sued Katz for > > > IIRC having something to do with PKARC not being 100% compatible with the > > > widely used ARC compressions scheme used. > > I think the ARC people sued him because he hadn't licenced their compression > algorythm. This goes back to my BBS days, but if memory serves, ARC sued him, > he wrote PKZIP, and within a year ARC was no longer the defacto standard for > BBS's. I believe the company that wrote ARC is now extinct. Serves them right. They were called "System Enhancement Associates"(SEA) or soemthing like that. PK wrote a faster version of ARC (called PKARC), SEA sued, so PK wrote a new program called PKZIp. Word got out to all the BBSs...in about 6 months, just about every ARC file was converted to ZIP (besides, ZIP did a better job compressing anyway) When did this happen? 1988-89? From transit at lerctr.org Thu Apr 27 21:07:37 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: AOL Disks Collectable In-Reply-To: <200004280101.SAA22108@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Apr 2000 healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > A friend of mine just sent me an article describing AOL Disks as being > > collectable from the Seattle Times. I have been saving and collecting them > > You know with news like that I'm thinking of heading out into the wilderness > and becoming a hermit. Please stop the World and let me off, the world > truely has gone crazy! > > Someone mind explaining what possible reason *ANYONE* could have for wanting > to collect AOL disks! > Someone mind explaining what possible reason anyone could have for wanting to collect 75% of the stuff on Ebay now! From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Thu Apr 27 21:12:12 2000 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Kevin Stumpf/Unusual Systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: AOL Disks Collectable - why not? References: <200004280101.SAA22108@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <00c201bfb0b7$398b56c0$ae89b7d1@kstumpf> Why not collect AOL memorabilia? The definition of a collectible (ideally) is something that wasn't made to be collected, but through circumstance began to appeal to people and people started collecting them. One man's treasure is another man's trash. You must admit those little diskette packages were distinctive, ingenious packaging, and there were many, many versions. These are good grounds for becoming a collectible. While they are not my cup'o tea, I hope those that can perhaps only collect them, instead of systems, have fun. So don't run off and be a hermit. Run up to an AOL diskette collector and give them a hug. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 9:01 PM Subject: Re: AOL Disks Collectable > > A friend of mine just sent me an article describing AOL Disks as being > > collectable from the Seattle Times. I have been saving and collecting them > > You know with news like that I'm thinking of heading out into the wilderness > and becoming a hermit. Please stop the World and let me off, the world > truely has gone crazy! > > Someone mind explaining what possible reason *ANYONE* could have for wanting > to collect AOL disks! > > Zane > > From cem14 at cornell.edu Thu Apr 27 22:08:57 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: AOL Disks Collectable In-Reply-To: References: <200004280101.SAA22108@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000427230857.012c44ac@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 09:07 PM 4/27/00 -0500, Charles P. Hobbs wrote: >Someone mind explaining what possible reason anyone could have for >wanting to collect 75% of the stuff on Ebay now! What! do _you_ like all of the remaining 25% ? Seriously, though, no one's mind is big enough to comprehend everyone's mind. Carlos. From rws at enteract.com Thu Apr 27 22:35:09 2000 From: rws at enteract.com (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: Can a Mac Portable battery be "trickle charged"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Apr 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > Tell me about it :-). I've never managed to recover a lead-acid battery > that's been discharged and then left -- there's no 'zapping'-type trick > that works. If anyone has any ideas on recovery methods, I'd be > interested to hear them. I have recovered, at least partially, some small lead-acid gel cells (small UPS batteries). I've done 3 and one came out like new, one just good, and one borderline OK. I usually do it over a few days at work. The basic method is this: 1. Put them across a *current-limited* power supply, set to 2 or 2.5 times the battery voltage, current-limited to C/10 amps. (that's 1/10 the amp-hour rating). Initially it will draw negligible current, but since the voltage is so high it will start to bust through the sulfate and current will rise. Eventually (a few minutes to a an hour) you'll start to current limit. When the voltage drops down to near the nominal battery voltage (perhaps several hours) go to step 2. 2. Take the battery off charge and leave it sit a minute or two. Read the voltage across it. The lower it reads, the more shorted cells you have. If it's less than half the nominal, consider giving up. Otherwise go on to step 3. 3. Charge at C/10 (or even up to C/5) for 2 hours, then put a dead short across the battery. (I use about a foot-long piece of #16 wire with the voltmeter across it to see how much current it's putting out. As the battery improves you will start to pass a LOT of current so be careful.) The dead short will use the energy in the good cells to blast out the shorts in the shorted cells. Leave it shorted for 10 or 15 seconds. Put it back on charge for a few minutes, then take it off for a minute. Read the voltage again. Repeat step 3 until.... 4. When your voltage is up near the nominal battery voltage, and the battery is able to put out a healthy amount of current (50 to 100 amps under dead short is not unrealistic), let it charge at C/10 for 10 or 12 hours. Then let it sit overnight or so. If the voltage stays up, congratulations, you're done. If it drops, try charging at C/10 for a few more hours until the battery is good and warm. You might still have some shorted cells and the heat and gassing will circulate the gel a little. It this doesn't qualify as battery abuse then I don't know what would. :-) It's a procedure that's technically hard on the battery, but it's already dead, right? As usual, look out for gassing, excessive heat, and sparks at the terminals. And if it blows up don't call me :-) Richard Schauer rws@enteract.com From dogas at leading.net Thu Apr 27 23:14:06 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: RCA Cosmac Dev. System IV update Message-ID: <001d01bfb0c8$606a7300$ca646464@dogclient01> I got everything cleaned up and after a scary session adjusting the horizontal hold near the hot end of the CRT, booted it into CDOS 4.1. The CDP18S801 Floppy Drive System (RCA Cosmac badged but from Pertec) is run off the parallel card of the computer. That seems to make them maybe portable across different systems. I can't do much with the machine however because all the disks that I have for it although bootable, don't have any of the other CDOS files. They all contain what appears to be EPROM dump files. Does anyone have any software for this system? God, I hope so... ;) - Mike: dogas@leading.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000428/4f3397ae/attachment.html From donm at cts.com Fri Apr 28 00:28:42 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: Can a Mac Portable battery be "trickle charged"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Apr 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > On Thu, 27 Apr 2000 21:26:15 +0100 (BST) Tony Duell > > wrote: > > > Tell me about it :-). I've never managed to recover a lead-acid battery > > > that's been discharged and then left -- there's no 'zapping'-type trick > > > that works. If anyone has any ideas on recovery methods, I'd be > > > interested to hear them. > > > > I have a World-War-II era book called "Accumulator > > Charging", which goes into some detail on lead-acid > > Nice... > > FWIW, I have a number of older electrical/electronic books that cover > repairing accumulators (as in rechargable batteries, not registers :-)). > A couple of them even cover making them from scratch... > > But this is for the traditional 'wet cell'. Not the gell-electrolyte ones > we're talking about. Doubtless the same principles apply, but the details > are sure to be different. > > And I'm not sure I'd trust myself to be able to reassemble the case so > that it was properly sealed and didn't leak sulphuric acid all over my > nice computer... > > > batteries. I expect it'll say what to do, but it may also > > assume that you're willing and able to dismantle the > > battery, fix it and then reassemble -- in the case of a 12V > > battery, repeat for all six cells! > > Ah, the joys of drilling out the lead connecting bars between the cells > and running a hot knife round the sealant so as to free the top of the > casing and the plates/separators... And the real fun comes in the rebuild when you do the 'lead burning' to put it all back together electrically! - don > > > > I'll dig out the book and take a look -- I won't be able to > > supply an ISBN, though, because it's too old for that sort > > of thing! > > Camdens must sell at least one book on this... > > And you, coming from the west of England must know Camdens... > > -tony > > From donm at cts.com Fri Apr 28 00:33:03 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: AOL Disks Collectable In-Reply-To: <200004280101.SAA22108@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Apr 2000 healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > A friend of mine just sent me an article describing AOL Disks as being > > collectable from the Seattle Times. I have been saving and collecting them > > You know with news like that I'm thinking of heading out into the wilderness > and becoming a hermit. Please stop the World and let me off, the world > truely has gone crazy! > > Someone mind explaining what possible reason *ANYONE* could have for wanting > to collect AOL disks! And especially when you consider the numbers in which they have been put out. - don > Zane > > > From marvin at rain.org Fri Apr 28 00:34:22 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: AOL Disks Collectable References: <200004280101.SAA22108@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <390922DE.92C305C2@rain.org> healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > > A friend of mine just sent me an article describing AOL Disks as being > > collectable from the Seattle Times. I have been saving and collecting them > > You know with news like that I'm thinking of heading out into the wilderness > and becoming a hermit. Please stop the World and let me off, the world > truely has gone crazy! > > Someone mind explaining what possible reason *ANYONE* could have for wanting > to collect AOL disks! Q: Why would anyone want to collect anything? A: Because it is there. From dogas at leading.net Fri Apr 28 00:28:55 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: RCA Dev System IV another update... Message-ID: <001a01bfb0d2$a761f9e0$ca646464@dogclient01> The machine isn't the lame duck that I first thought. I just finished reading the UT21 Utility Commands There's a great monitor down there with easy disk access and a "bios (including uart)" Woo Hoo! It beckons... ;) - Mike: dogas@leading,net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000428/a909004f/attachment.html From go at ao.com Fri Apr 28 01:22:19 2000 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: Can a Mac Portable battery be "trickle charged"? In-Reply-To: <014b01bfb067$e6bf9ae0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <4.2.2.20000427230232.039f6b20@buffy.ao.com> At 10:44 4/27/00 -0600, you wrote: >I have one of those "universal" AC adapters that can do 7.5 V, but only 300 >mA. If I plug in this adapter to the Portable, will the internal battery >eventually obtain a usable charge (assuming it's not totally dead, as so >many are)? > >Any suggestions gratefully received. > >Mark Gregory Two more cents worth: I've seen basically three types of chargers (or wall-wart power supplies.) At the cheap end are those using fairly high impedance primary transformers (with rectification and possibly filtering if DC supplies.) Better supplies contain a better quality transformer and a linear regulated DC output driver. The best supplies are the newer, high efficiency switchers. The cheap warts are designed to provide the rated current at the (approximate) rated voltage continuously. At a lower current, you get a higher voltage - it's all open loop. At a higher current, you get a lower-than-nominal voltage, but you also will get a premature burnout. These supplies are designed to self-destruct when the transformer core exceeds a rated temperature - burns out the transformer instead of burning down your house. In my experience, most of these DO NOT use a fusible link - they rely on the transformer primary opening. Those that do use a link usually bury it deep in the primary transformer winding. You will have to rewind the transformer to fix the open circuit in either case. For the linear and switcher type supplies, they usually just current-limit and/or shut down if you attempt to exceed the rated current. In the case of the cheap supplies, where the required current greatly exceeds the rated capacity of the supply, it will probably work for while and then the power supply will die. For the other types of warts, they will probably survive but the outcome of the charging is dependent on the circuit providing the battery drive - can it provide a proper charging voltage when operated at with a lower current supply? -Gary From wmsmith at earthlink.net Fri Apr 28 02:14:14 2000 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:08 2005 Subject: Can a Mac Portable battery be "trickle charged"? References: <014b01bfb067$e6bf9ae0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <018f01bfb0e1$5ccafbc0$6399b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> > I'm currently hunting for a PowerBook 1xx adapter, which I'm told is usable with the > Portable I would stick with a powerbook 100 adapter (model m5140, 2.0 amps). For a time I used a PB 170 adapter on my portable (model m5652, 3.0 amp output) which would initially work well, but eventually the HDD would begin screeching, even without the 9V battery installed. Anyone have any idea why this screeching occurred? From technoid at cheta.net Fri Apr 28 01:39:13 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: AOL Disks Collectable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200004280722.DAA10078@lexington.ioa.net> I've heard the AOL disk mailings described in the press as "carpet bombing". According to one article and my memory (look out folks!), this marketing method is not particularly effective. Certainly not compared to referrals from AOL members. I don't exactly hate AOL but I don't understand why it is so successful. People say "it's easy" but I don't see what's hard about Netscape. Netscape provides browsing, mail, instant messaging, chat, and is easy to use in the extreme. All in one integrated, non-system-intrusive program. Well, at least the non-WinDos versions are inocuous <-- Spelling anyone? AOL's success just boggles the mind considering the annoying and time consuming popup adds. You get these on the internet but mostly on porn sites and Netscape's main site.... Hmm. It's considered impolite. The complaints of busy signals and other denial of service issue are probably true but I don't think it is as bad as all that. Probably my main objection is the number of total idiots I see who use AOL. I am offended for my species. I think this goes for Packard Bell computers as well. I hated PB for thier case designs quite a bit but had no other complaints to speak of. None at least that didn't also apply to Hewlett Packard, IBM, Compaq.... Each has had some nightmare cases to work in. What behooves these companies to design these wierd machines? Sometimes it's a challenge just to figure out how to get inside at all. The other day I had a HP or Compaq minitower on the bench that had it's faceplate and drive bay as one piece. Not a little bay either but two 5.25" and three 3.5" bays that slid on a track and had the faceplate welded to it. It took me 15 minutes just to get the Quantum Bigfoot out of the machine. I rambled. Sorry. In , on 04/28/00 at 02:39 AM, Don Maslin said: >And especially when you consider the numbers in which they have been put >out -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From technoid at cheta.net Fri Apr 28 02:24:27 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: RCA Dev System IV another update... In-Reply-To: <001a01bfb0d2$a761f9e0$ca646464@dogclient01> Message-ID: <200004280723.DAA10184@lexington.ioa.net> Excellent. What are the specs on the machine or do you know yet? In <001a01bfb0d2$a761f9e0$ca646464@dogclient01>, on 04/28/00 at 03:24 AM, "Mike" said: >The machine isn't the lame duck that I first thought. I just finished >reading the UT21 Utility Commands There's a great monitor down there >with easy disk access and a "bios (including uart)" Woo Hoo! It >beckons... >;) >- Mike: dogas@leading,net >-- -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From technoid at cheta.net Fri Apr 28 02:32:35 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: Sun 3/260, Complete. Available at CPB In-Reply-To: <3908C14F.A1E2713B@rain.org> Message-ID: <200004280743.DAA11665@lexington.ioa.net> A sun 3/260 is available at Computer Parts Barn. The machine consists of the complete computer and chassis, 19" (looks like) monitor, keyboard and mouse, and SMD hard disk in a separate enclosure. I'm told SMD hard disks on sun boxes this old is a rare feature. Shipping would be steep for this machine. I would guess it at 150lbs or thereabouts. I might be underestimating a bit as well. Anyone who needs specifics on the machine can contact Ed Kirby at EDCPB@EMAIL.COM for more information. Ed will not provide the level of detail you are looking for as far as specifications on a given machine unless they are immediately at hand. In most cases they are not. I will gladly go and dissassemble, spec, and test the machine if you like (see below). Ed can be slow to get hold of. He is not in town at the moment and it may be a week before he reads your message. Alternately you can contact me and when he comes back I'll give him a list of 'hits' for his gear. I don't make a dime from Ed or anything connected with Computer Parts Barn or my messages relating to CPB or Ed's property. I like Ed and the concept of CPB and would like to help both him and the computing community by disseminating information about gear I see when I visit there. My role in these messages is to offer my services in helping you discover exactly what it is you may be/are buying via a hands-on assessment of the machine(s) in question by a fellow vintage computer enthusiast and qualified technician. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From technoid at cheta.net Fri Apr 28 02:45:30 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: Wierd Motorola Minicomputer available at CPB In-Reply-To: <3908C14F.A1E2713B@rain.org> Message-ID: <200004280746.DAA11891@lexington.ioa.net> Some kind of wierd Motorola Mini in working order is available at CPB. Details can be had but I'd have to have a hard look at it to tell you what it's attributes are. Let me know if you are interested and I'll detail it for you. I think it's a 68k-based machine but that is only a guess and my conversations with Ed Kirby (edcpb@e-mail.com). -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From technoid at cheta.net Fri Apr 28 02:49:21 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: AT&T unix Mini available at CPB In-Reply-To: <3908C14F.A1E2713B@rain.org> Message-ID: <200004280749.DAA12169@lexington.ioa.net> I saw an AT&T machine at CPB my last visit. Details if you want. E-mail me and wait a while. I'll respond to your request but have to wait for Ed Kirby to return before I can have a close look. Could be 68k, could be Hobbit, could be.... -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From technoid at cheta.net Fri Apr 28 02:54:32 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: LOTS and LOTS of Apple machines at CPB In-Reply-To: <3908C14F.A1E2713B@rain.org> Message-ID: <200004280757.DAA12845@lexington.ioa.net> Ed Kirby (edcpb@email.com) has untold numbers of Apple machines available. Quite a few are Mac IIlc's. He also has a number of mac A/UX servers for sale. I can help with info on the servers and install media if you need it . A friend here in Asheville bought one and is digging at it. He has had good success. The IIlc machines are very well pretty obvious. Monitors and keyboards and mice are available for them as well. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From technoid at cheta.net Fri Apr 28 03:02:53 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: Centronics 733 printer (what the hell) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200004280801.EAA13227@lexington.ioa.net> -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From technoid at cheta.net Fri Apr 28 03:03:25 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: centronics 733 printer (what the hell?) In-Reply-To: <20000427202551.B4513@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <200004280807.EAA13682@lexington.ioa.net> This is a message about an old experience I had in 1992. I DO have the printer still. I bought an Atari 825 printer in 1992 for $19.00. At the time that was a killer price for a dependable dot-matrix impact printer. I wanted to include them as a free incentive to buy our MC Trading clone computers. I wired the cables according to specs and fried the printer. I mean FRIED the printer when I connected it to the clone. I got a replacement from the vendor and tried again after checking the cable specs for both the clone and the printer. All signals etc were perfect on the original cable so I jacked it into the clone and FRIED another printer. I then went to Cables and Chips around the corner in Miami and bought a cable by thier spec (they do wierd cabling for a living and have specs from God himself). I fried a third printer. Glad to give pinouts for the Atari 850 printerface on which the printer works perfectly, the clone interface that fries it, and the printer it'self. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From technoid at cheta.net Fri Apr 28 03:14:42 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: Spamming the list In-Reply-To: <200004280024.SAA15511@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <200004280817.EAA14467@lexington.ioa.net> If anyone feels I am spamming the list by posting my finds at CPB please let me know and I will cease my messages. My plan is to Increase the number of messages regarding finds as well as thier content and detail. This is mainly to support my computer habit. If I can't afford it, at least I can get some sticktime to get the detail you guys and gals want before you buy. Also to get some warm fuzzies for myself knowing another hacker has the box I had my hands on. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Apr 28 07:48:13 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: AOL Disks Collectable In-Reply-To: <3908DA48.50CFBF84@rain.org> References: <3908BB5F.4D863C0E@rain.org> <3908CA28.779FC1FC@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000428074813.3b2f0d1a@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 05:24 PM 4/27/00 -0700, Marvin wrote: >A friend of mine just sent me an article describing AOL Disks as being >collectable from the Seattle Times. I have been saving and collecting them >for a while having a feeling that they would become collectors items. The >article describes some AOL 2.0 shrinkwrapped disks being sold for $102. And >Sellam is also mentioned in the article. Now lets see, my retirement is >shaping up nicely :). > You must be kidding! Are you sure that article wasn't published on April first??? AOL disks are about as collectable as used condoms IMO. Joe From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 28 07:19:18 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: RCA Cosmac Dev. System IV update In-Reply-To: <001d01bfb0c8$606a7300$ca646464@dogclient01> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Apr 2000, Mike wrote: > I got everything cleaned up and after a scary session adjusting the >horizontal hold near the hot end of the CRT, booted it into CDOS 4.1. The CDP18S801 Floppy Drive System (RCA Cosmac badged but from Pertec) is run off the parallel card of the computer. That seems to make them maybe portable across different systems. I can't do much with the machine I'd love to get a copy of the 18s801 floppy interface schematic if you have it. Allison From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Apr 28 07:09:49 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: Sorenson lab supply in So Cal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I picked a fairly nice looking Sorenson lab power supply out of the non recycling bin today, but don't really have any personal plans for it. There is a postit complaining about the knobs not effecting the meters or something like that, but it looks too nice to dump. If you are local to SoCal, or insane, or have free shipping, email me and its yours for a token fee of $2. OTOH this is a really nice looking unit, so I may take a swing at fixing whatever is tired in the regulation boards. Unit is about 5 inches high, rack mount, black with large V and A meters, Sorenson made by Ratheon, weighs maybe 35 lbs. Anybody going to TRW Saturday, email me soon, as I am undecided right now. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Apr 28 07:20:41 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: Can a Mac Portable battery be "trickle charged"? In-Reply-To: <018f01bfb0e1$5ccafbc0$6399b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> References: <014b01bfb067$e6bf9ae0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: >> I'm currently hunting for a PowerBook 1xx adapter, >which I'm told is usable with the >> Portable > >I would stick with a powerbook 100 adapter (model >m5140, 2.0 amps). For a time I used a PB 170 adapter >on my portable (model m5652, 3.0 amp output) which >would initially work well, but eventually the HDD would >begin screeching, even without the 9V battery FWIW I do have a "real" portable AC adapter, and could be convinced to sell to a list member at less than its full eBay value. ;) From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Apr 28 06:38:34 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: AOL Disks Collectable In-Reply-To: <200004280101.SAA22108@shell1.aracnet.com> References: <3908DA48.50CFBF84@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Apr 27, 2000 05:24:40 PM Message-ID: >> A friend of mine just sent me an article describing AOL Disks as being >> collectable from the Seattle Times. I have been saving and collecting them > >You know with news like that I'm thinking of heading out into the wilderness >and becoming a hermit. Please stop the World and let me off, the world >truely has gone crazy! > >Someone mind explaining what possible reason *ANYONE* could have for wanting >to collect AOL disks! You mean you "don't" collect them? I've been using AOL and CI$ floppy's as blanks for years, and the CDs are full of handy old software. Besides, I don't need a "good" reason to collect anything. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Apr 28 08:53:00 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: AOL Disks Collectable - why not? Message-ID: <7f.39da01b.263af1bc@aol.com> In a message dated 4/27/00 10:22:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kstumpf@unusual.on.ca writes: > Why not collect AOL memorabilia? The definition of a collectible (ideally) > is something that wasn't made to be collected, but through circumstance > began to appeal to people and people started collecting them. > > One man's treasure is another man's trash. You must admit those little > diskette packages were distinctive, ingenious packaging, and there were > many, many versions. These are good grounds for becoming a collectible. > > While they are not my cup'o tea, I hope those that can perhaps only collect > them, instead of systems, have fun. hmmm, i still have the apple version and pc version 1.5 still in their packages... hey, i betcha my aol version 2.5 beta tester coffee cup would bring in thousands of dollars! DB Young ICQ: 29427634 view the computers of yesteryear at http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm --You can lead a whore to Vassar, but you can't make her think-- From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Fri Apr 28 09:19:24 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: Spamming the list In-Reply-To: <200004280817.EAA14467@lexington.ioa.net> References: <200004280024.SAA15511@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000428071924.0097f220@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 04:14 28-04-2000 -0400, you wrote: >If anyone feels I am spamming the list by posting my finds at CPB please >let me know and I will cease my messages. I don't see them as spam, but you might want to consider combining them into one post. It's hardly necessary to post five separate notes for five separate finds. On a related note... that Motorola mini you spotted. Might it be a VMEBus machine of some sort? If so, details on what cards it has installed would be most helpful. Thanks. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Fri Apr 28 09:24:11 2000 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Kevin Stumpf/Unusual Systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: AOL Disks Collectable - why not? References: <7f.39da01b.263af1bc@aol.com> Message-ID: <00dc01bfb11d$6e8f0d60$ae89b7d1@kstumpf> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, April 28, 2000 9:53 AM Subject: Re: AOL Disks Collectable - why not? > hmmm, i still have the apple version and pc version 1.5 still in their > packages... > hey, i betcha my aol version 2.5 beta tester coffee cup would bring in > thousands of dollars! > Superdave tell you what. If someone somewhere found out you did have an AOL Version 2.5 Beta Tester coffee cup and they wanted it badly enough and that person offered you US$1 000.00 for it, would you turn them down? Would you find some ethical reason why they shouldn't spend their money that way? Would you feel better not having $1K more than you did before? If you, or anyone who might read this discussion, answer no to all or any of these questions then let's get off the righteous collectors' bandwagon and fill this bandwidth with useful sourcing tips and wonderful 'how I found it stories', announcements of new acquisitions, and interesting technical questions and answers instead of these complaints about other collectors. Remember there are many, many more people who DON'T collect computers than those who do AND THEY THINK WE'RE absolutely nuts. So since our complaints don't offset their complaints in the grand scheme of things, let's just not do it anymore. Yours in good faith. Kevin Stumpf - The Nostalgic Technophile www.unusual.on.ca - 519.744.2900 EST/EDT (GMT - 5) Author & Publisher of The Guide to Collecting Computers and Computer Collectibles: History, Practice, and Technique From at258 at osfn.org Fri Apr 28 09:36:27 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: AOL Disks Collectable - why not? In-Reply-To: <00c201bfb0b7$398b56c0$ae89b7d1@kstumpf> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Apr 2000, Kevin Stumpf/Unusual Systems wrote: > Why not collect AOL memorabilia? The definition of a collectible (ideally) > is something that wasn't made to be collected, but through circumstance > began to appeal to people and people started collecting them. > > So don't run off and be a hermit. Run up to an AOL diskette collector and > give them a hug. I tried that. I got a black eye and lost two teeth for my trouble. Oh yeah, like he's EVER going to get my shrink-wrapped AOL Titanium disc, ever... :) From dogas at leading.net Fri Apr 28 10:07:46 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: RCA Dev System IV another update... Message-ID: <002001bfb123$a9d2cf00$ca646464@dogclient01> From: technoid@cheta.net >Excellent. What are the specs on the machine or do you know yet? The options installed in the machine are listed at: http://users.leading.net/~dogas/classiccmp/cosmac/cosmac.htm It's an 1802 microprocessor based system (of course) with 60K of ram, 15 slot (Microboard buss) "card nest", rom( ut21 utilities/monitor), parallel&serial i/o interfaces, integrated ascii keyboard and crt, extertnal dual 8" floppies (CDP18S801), and ports that tightly link in an external Micromonitor (CDP18S030) microprocessor ICE unit. CDOS, The disk based operating system has (I'm looking for) programs for full screen editing program and various levels of interpreters/compilers for Basic, Assembler, Pascal, etc... I found a source for the PLM compiler and MOPS (the Micromonitor Operating System) so the machine won't be completlely without software soon and I can already now hand assemble stuff and poke it in through the the ut21 monitor ;) - Mike: dogas@leading.net From dogas at leading.net Fri Apr 28 10:25:18 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: RCA Cosmac Dev. System IV update Message-ID: <002901bfb125$f7c2ac60$ca646464@dogclient01> From: allisonp@world.std.com > >I'd love to get a copy of the 18s801 floppy interface schematic if you >have it. > >Allison Do you want a schematic of the Parallel I/O board CDP18s646 (got that,) I don't have one for the CDP18S801 floppy system that I do have and the manual for the (FDS II I think) CDP18S805 floppy system dosent have much in the way of schematics, except....a schematic of CDP18S813 (the disk interface module for the CDP18S005 CDS) Will any of that help? Cheers - Mike From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri Apr 28 12:38:28 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: AOL Disks Collectable - why not? References: <7f.39da01b.263af1bc@aol.com> <00dc01bfb11d$6e8f0d60$ae89b7d1@kstumpf> Message-ID: <005a01bfb138$90a3c4c0$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Stumpf/Unusual Systems To: Sent: Friday, April 28, 2000 10:24 AM Subject: Re: AOL Disks Collectable - why not? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Friday, April 28, 2000 9:53 AM > Subject: Re: AOL Disks Collectable - why not? > > > > hmmm, i still have the apple version and pc version 1.5 still in their > > packages... > > hey, i betcha my aol version 2.5 beta tester coffee cup would bring in > > thousands of dollars! > > > > Superdave tell you what. If someone somewhere found out you did have an AOL > Version 2.5 Beta Tester coffee cup and they wanted it badly enough and that > person offered you US$1 000.00 for it, would you turn them down? Would you > find some ethical reason why they shouldn't spend their money that way? > Would you feel better not having $1K more than you did before? > Almost everything is collectable to someone. > If you, or anyone who might read this discussion, answer no to all or any of > these questions then let's get off the righteous collectors' bandwagon and > fill this bandwidth with useful sourcing tips and wonderful 'how I found it > stories', announcements of new acquisitions, and interesting technical > questions and answers instead of these complaints about other collectors. > > Remember there are many, many more people who DON'T collect computers than > those who do AND THEY THINK WE'RE absolutely nuts. So since our complaints > don't offset their complaints in the grand scheme of things, let's just not > do it anymore. > Most of the people I know feel people who collect computers are nuts. Can't blame them really - there are much *nicer* things to place in a home. > Yours in good faith. > > Kevin Stumpf - The Nostalgic Technophile John > www.unusual.on.ca - 519.744.2900 EST/EDT (GMT - 5) > Author & Publisher of The Guide to Collecting Computers and Computer > Collectibles: History, Practice, and Technique > > From marvin at rain.org Fri Apr 28 11:01:34 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: TRW Swap Meet Saturday References: Message-ID: <3909B5DE.67CEEE3B@rain.org> Mike Ford wrote: > > Anybody going to TRW Saturday, email me soon, as I am undecided right now. Yes, I will be going down. John has decided not to attend; seems there is another show in Europe (VCF Europe) going on at the same time and TRW lost out :). Space G22. For anyone not aware of TRW in So. Cal. (is that possible?), it runs from about 7:00am to 11:30am in the parking lot near Marine and Aviation Blvd. It used to be in El Segundo but they moved it a couple of hundred yards and I don't know the city it is in off hand. See you down there! From transit at lerctr.org Fri Apr 28 11:06:15 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: AOL Disks Collectable In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000427230857.012c44ac@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Apr 2000, Carlos Murillo wrote: > At 09:07 PM 4/27/00 -0500, Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > >Someone mind explaining what possible reason anyone could have for > >wanting to collect 75% of the stuff on Ebay now! > > What! do _you_ like all of the remaining 25% ? Not necessarily. But we all have different interests. I collect old records (vinyl) and computers, mostly. Someone else might like the AOL disks or the beenie babies or the Pokemon cards. It takes all kinds to make a world. . . From ernestls at home.com Fri Apr 28 11:27:56 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: Opening CP/M files (.asm/.bas) In-Reply-To: <004301bfb09d$03629690$6c64c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <000001bfb12e$b6ec1380$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of allisonp Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2000 3:55 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Opening CP/M files (.asm/.bas) >Cp/M was a cross-platform operating system with several layers to provide >support for any platform for which the base functions of CP/M were >compiled. In other words, if your machine boots cp/m then you can run the >vast majority of CP/M programs. Some you won't. A good example of a >situation in which a program cannot run is if it takes advantage of >non-standard system calls to access the video subsystem. There are quite >a few of these programs but most are commercial such as CPT system >accounting, spreadsheet and word processing. The CPT had a very custom >full-page physical display. Well thats only true if unique BIOS calls or direct IO was done. If you used the standard BDOS calls then compatability was assured save for sillyness like terminal control sequences. The worst offenders for this were the modem programs as they needed speed and CPM could but often didn't have interrupt driven IO or IOBYTE implemented. >Probably the most important setting in CP/M is your terminal settings. >CP/M software will run on anything but does have to be informed as to what >termninal type (ie ADM3a, Soroc, Televideo, Etcetera) in order to operate >correctly. -- Often taken care of in the install program. Yeah, that could be my problem but then again, I can't say. I am doing some systematic experimentation, and getting my feet wet on working with the assembler, etc.. I guess that the main reason that I'm going to all this trouble is because there isn't much software that will work for an Apple II with Z80 softcard. The disk format is the problem -lots of software but I can't get it transferred to my Apple CP/M disks because I don't have any communication software to do it with. However, I was wondering, would it be possible to hand copy (type) an existing CP/M comm program to a Apple formatted floppy. I'm not sure of how the addressing is handled by the Z80 card but my logic is that if most CP/M programs will run on my Z80 card, would a generic CP/M comm program run also. I'm guessing "no" but if anyone has any thoughts on it, please let me know. Thanks. Ernest From liste at artware.qc.ca Fri Apr 28 11:32:35 2000 From: liste at artware.qc.ca (liste@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: Wordstar In-Reply-To: <3908C14F.A1E2713B@rain.org> Message-ID: On 27-Apr-2000 Marvin wrote: > > Anyone still remember Wordstar :). I received this URL that has info, > updates, etc. for those people that still use it. > > http://www.glinx.com/%7Egrifwood/WordStar.html Heh! I haven't used WordStar for a loooooooooooooong time. Since 2.x days, I think. On a PCjr. I fondly remember modifying the executable in debug to change options. Then a new version came out that had an app that did essentially the same thing. And then WordStar 2000 came out and I switched to word perfect 5.1. To say that WordStar had a very strong effect on me is an understatement. I *still* use WordStar key bindings in my editor (joe under linux, quick edit under DOS, tse32 under GameOS). I just don't have the patience nor the inclination to learn new stuff. Just ^KB ^KK and the rest for me. -Philip From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 28 11:47:46 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: AOL Disks Collectable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Not necessarily. But we all have different interests. I collect > old records (vinyl) and computers, mostly. Someone else might like > the AOL disks or the beenie babies or the Pokemon cards. It takes > all kinds to make a world. . . Why collect AOL disks? Because, at least for the older ones before they switched to CD, they are easier to reformat than beenie babies or Pokemon cards. From ernestls at home.com Fri Apr 28 11:54:52 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: Gene Sequencer at rummage shop in Seattle. In-Reply-To: <004301bfb09d$03629690$6c64c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <000101bfb132$795bbe40$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> A few days ago, I walked into a no-name rummage shop, on Pine and Summit in Seattle, and found a large Gene Sequencer, with attached teletype, and lots of other analytical equipment. It's a heavy duty piece of equipment (all steel,) and very serious looking. It probably weighs a ton, and it's about 4 feet long by 2-3 feet tall. Also, it looks old, like from the late sixties-early seventies (just a guess.) If anyone is interested, you might want to go and check it out. Don't ask me how a Gene Sequencer from the University of Washington ever found it's way into a hole in the wall rummage shop, or what on earth they hope to do with it. I figure that there might be a hand full of people in the world who might want it, and I doubt they would pay much for it. Still, it's an interesting machine, and the extra hardware and teletype might be useful to someone. Ernest PS. They also have a very nice and complete Commodore Plus 4, with floppy drive and matching printer that looks to be a cool little system. From wmsmith at earthlink.net Fri Apr 28 11:58:21 2000 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: Can a Mac Portable battery be "trickle charged"? References: <014b01bfb067$e6bf9ae0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <002c01bfb132$f62711e0$7914f4d8@Smith.earthlink.net> > >> I'm currently hunting for a PowerBook 1xx adapter, > >which I'm told is usable with the > >> Portable > > > >I would stick with a powerbook 100 adapter (model > >m5140, 2.0 amps). For a time I used a PB 170 adapter > >on my portable (model m5652, 3.0 amp output) which > >would initially work well, but eventually the HDD would > >begin screeching, even without the 9V battery > > FWIW I do have a "real" portable AC adapter, and could be convinced to sell > to a list member at less than its full eBay value. ;) > The real adapter, which puts out 1.5 amps, will only spin the HD if the battery will hold a charge. If it won't you need to use at least a PB 100 adapter, and probably no more than that. From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 28 12:03:37 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: RCA Cosmac Dev. System IV update In-Reply-To: <002901bfb125$f7c2ac60$ca646464@dogclient01> Message-ID: > Do you want a schematic of the Parallel I/O board CDP18s646 (got that,) I > don't have one for the CDP18S801 floppy system that I do have and the manual > for the (FDS II I think) CDP18S805 floppy system dosent have much in the way > of schematics, except....a schematic of CDP18S813 (the disk interface module > for the CDP18S005 CDS) Will any of that help? the 18s646 and 18s813 schematics will do nicely. Allison From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Apr 28 12:04:52 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: Of course... a few more VMS questions... ;-) In-Reply-To: <000427165059.20200761@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000428130452.00afc3f0@mail.30below.com> Holy-Macaroni! I had yesterday off, so I was underneath a 1964 International Harvester 504 Tractor most of the day, replacing the carbeurator & starter. And lordy, did I come back to a Christmas morning wealth of VMS information! Wowzers! I just thought I'd take the time thank everyone here for all that fantastic info! Now... does anyone know how to adjust a carbeurator on a '64 IH-504??? ;-) Thanks again! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 28 12:25:21 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: AOL Disks Collectable - why not? In-Reply-To: <005a01bfb138$90a3c4c0$fd83fea9@office> References: <7f.39da01b.263af1bc@aol.com> <00dc01bfb11d$6e8f0d60$ae89b7d1@kstumpf> Message-ID: >Most of the people I know feel people who collect computers are nuts. Can't >blame them really - there are much *nicer* things to place in a home. But don't most of us that collect computers think that people that collect computers are nuts? I know I've come to that conclusion! Especially those of us that like collecting *big* systems (yes, such as my /44). Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rivie at teraglobal.com Fri Apr 28 12:26:59 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: Opening CP/M files (.asm/.bas) In-Reply-To: <000001bfb12e$b6ec1380$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> References: <000001bfb12e$b6ec1380$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: >However, I was wondering, would it be possible to hand copy (type) an >existing CP/M comm program to a Apple formatted floppy. I'm not sure of how >the addressing is handled by the Z80 card but my logic is that if most CP/M >programs will run on my Z80 card, would a generic CP/M comm program run >also. I'm guessing "no" but if anyone has any thoughts on it, please let me >know. I don't know anything about the BIOS implementations on the Z80 cards, but I use the exact same executable of Kermit on a variety of CP/M hardware. The common feature of these machines is that they all support the I/O byte. I've used this executable on the Televideo 802 (pretty much a normal CP/M type of setup), the Epson PX-8 (not even close to the hardware of the 802) and the DECmate II (where the Z80 can't even touch the UART! It has to give messages to the PDP-8 to do all of the work), but because all of these systems implement the IOBYTE all of them can use the same executable of Kermit. -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From rivie at teraglobal.com Fri Apr 28 12:29:23 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: Wordstar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Heh! I haven't used WordStar for a loooooooooooooong time. Since >2.x days, I think. On a PCjr. I wasn't aware that 2.x was available for MS-DOS. I used 2.x on CP/M (I even once hacked it over to use the 25th line of my H19 to display the ruler line), but the earliest I used on MS-DOS was 3.3. I believe there was a version earlier than 3.3 on MS-DOS (3.0, maybe?), but I never ran across it. -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From rivie at teraglobal.com Fri Apr 28 12:31:04 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: Gene Sequencer at rummage shop in Seattle. In-Reply-To: <000101bfb132$795bbe40$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> References: <000101bfb132$795bbe40$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: >A few days ago, I walked into a no-name rummage shop, on Pine and Summit in >Seattle, and found a large Gene Sequencer, with attached teletype, and lots >of other analytical equipment. It's a heavy duty piece of equipment (all >steel,) and very serious looking. It probably weighs a ton, and it's about 4 >feet long by 2-3 feet tall. Also, it looks old, like from the late >sixties-early seventies (just a guess.) The most truly amazing surplus story I've ever heard was that of a fellow that acquired a surplus Plutonium processing plant from INEL, up in Idaho. The government managed to stop him from shipping it to India, but it was a close thing. -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 28 12:47:05 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: Opening CP/M files (.asm/.bas) In-Reply-To: <000001bfb12e$b6ec1380$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: > Yeah, that could be my problem but then again, I can't say. I am doing some > systematic experimentation, and getting my feet wet on working with the > assembler, etc.. I guess that the main reason that I'm going to all this > trouble is because there isn't much software that will work for an Apple II > with Z80 softcard. The disk format is the problem -lots of software but I > can't get it transferred to my Apple CP/M disks because I don't have any > communication software to do it with. Well, if you have the softcard docs there are a pair of programs to copy via serial line program from another CPM crate. they were called up and down. > However, I was wondering, would it be possible to hand copy (type) an > existing CP/M comm program to a Apple formatted floppy. I'm not sure of how > the addressing is handled by the Z80 card but my logic is that if most CP/M > programs will run on my Z80 card, would a generic CP/M comm program run > also. I'm guessing "no" but if anyone has any thoughts on it, please let me > know. No! Apple with softcard was a hybrid and the IO used the 6502 to do serial, disk, screen and other handy things. Most CPM comm programs like I'd said were the worst offenders for using the hardware directly. The best way is to look at the up and down programs if you have them as they are simple and do the basic work to communicate with asystem with a similar program (they are very trivial). Unfortunatly I don't ahve the the original version of them and the ones I use are very different so I can't help there. But, Even the fancy versions I run are less than 300 bytes! The Apply ones were some 200 or so and easily hand entered to DDT. Allison From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Apr 28 12:50:20 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: Gene Sequencer at rummage shop in Seattle. In-Reply-To: (message from Roger Ivie on Fri, 28 Apr 2000 11:31:04 -0600) References: <000101bfb132$795bbe40$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: <20000428175020.30532.qmail@brouhaha.com> Roger Ivie wrote: > The most truly amazing surplus story I've ever heard was that of a > fellow that acquired a surplus Plutonium processing plant from INEL, > up in Idaho. The government managed to stop him from shipping it to > India, but it was a close thing. IIRC, the only way they were able to stop him from selling it to another party was to buy it from him, for thousands of times what he paid for it. Technically it was legally exportable. From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 28 12:52:58 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: Opening CP/M files (.asm/.bas) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I don't know anything about the BIOS implementations on the Z80 cards, but I > use the exact same executable of Kermit on a variety of CP/M hardware. The > common feature of these machines is that they all support the I/O > byte. I've used That is more uncommon than common. Comm programs for my VT180 do work on the AmproLB but neither of the horizons or the SB180. as an example. What kermit can do for you is allow a PC or any system as a host. But if you can run kermit then you can have MEX or MODEM7 just as easily. The biggest error people make early on with CPM to CPM transfers via serial is going too fast as some can ru the port at 9600 (or faster) but the CPU can not service the port that fast (kaypro is an example if it writes to screen). Allison From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Apr 28 13:27:23 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: Gene Sequencer at rummage shop in Seattle. In-Reply-To: <000101bfb132$795bbe40$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.co m> References: <004301bfb09d$03629690$6c64c0d0@ajp166> Message-ID: <4.1.20000428112505.03e0d330@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 09:54 AM 4/28/00 -0700, you wrote: >A few days ago, I walked into a no-name rummage shop, on Pine and Summit in >Seattle, and found a large Gene Sequencer, with attached teletype, ... > ... like from the late sixties-early seventies (just a guess.) The interesting thing for this list is that often times there is a classic computer "buried" inside these things. If its late sixties it could be a PDP-8, if it is early 70s it could be a PDP-11. Or a Honeywell 160, etc etc. Why not go back, try to follow the teletype connections back to the innards and see what is inside. --Chuck From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Apr 28 13:34:03 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: AOL Disks Collectable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000428143403.00caf100@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) may have mentioned these words: >Why collect AOL disks? >Because, at least for the older ones before they switched to CD, they are >easier to reformat than beenie babies or Pokemon cards. I don't think so... I can reformat beenie babies & Pokemon cards *very* easily! You just need the right equipment.[1] Come to think of it, I can even reformat AOL CD's with the same equipment! Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] The right equipment in this case being a Chainsaw... ;-) -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From doug at blinkenlights.com Fri Apr 28 13:29:13 2000 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: AOL Disks Collectable - why not? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, I'm Doug and I collect AOL disks. Well, not really, but I do have *one*. AOL actually produced a disk that was labeled "collector's edition". I found it so funny that I saved it -- sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy.... -- Doug From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Fri Apr 28 14:00:11 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: Monster Chrome In-Reply-To: <00dc01bfb11d$6e8f0d60$ae89b7d1@kstumpf> Message-ID: <000501bfb143$fb674ec0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Kevin Stumpf/Unusual Systems > Remember there are many, many more people who DON'T collect computers... > > Kevin Stumpf - The Nostalgic Technophile > www.unusual.on.ca - 519.744.2900 EST/EDT (GMT - 5) > Author & Publisher of The Guide to Collecting Computers and Computer > Collectibles: History, Practice, and Technique P.S. If i recall last-night's eBay browse correctly... Kevin just put up a control panel from a (UltraClassic) IBM 701. Worth a visit just to see the .jpg. John A. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 28 13:37:36 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: Can a Mac Portable battery be "trickle charged"? In-Reply-To: from "Richard W. Schauer" at Apr 27, 0 10:35:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3545 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000428/d7e05b7a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 28 13:43:54 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: Can a Mac Portable battery be "trickle charged"? In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000427230232.039f6b20@buffy.ao.com> from "Gary Oliver" at Apr 27, 0 11:22:19 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1877 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000428/b5b06237/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 28 13:51:32 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: centronics 733 printer (what the hell?) In-Reply-To: <200004280807.EAA13682@lexington.ioa.net> from "technoid@cheta.net" at Apr 28, 0 04:03:25 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1243 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000428/f66ae044/attachment.ksh From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri Apr 28 14:23:40 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: Opening CP/M files (.asm/.bas) In-Reply-To: ; from rivie@teraglobal.com on Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 11:26:59AM -0600 References: <000001bfb12e$b6ec1380$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: <20000428152340.A7261@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 11:26:59AM -0600, Roger Ivie wrote: > I don't know anything about the BIOS implementations on the Z80 cards, but I > use the exact same executable of Kermit on a variety of CP/M hardware. It's been a while, but I clearly remember that building CP/M Kermit for the TRS-80 Model II required a special version of one of the source files (probably just for SET SPEED etc., the Model II wasn't as weird as the other TRS-80s so ORG 100H wasn't a problem), and they had versions for lots of other machines too. Maybe you're safe on any machine as long as you don't try to set the comm parameters though. John Wilson D Bit From liste at artware.qc.ca Fri Apr 28 14:22:15 2000 From: liste at artware.qc.ca (liste@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: Wordstar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 28-Apr-2000 Roger Ivie wrote: >>Heh! I haven't used WordStar for a loooooooooooooong time. Since >>2.x days, I think. On a PCjr. > > I wasn't aware that 2.x was available for MS-DOS. I used 2.x on CP/M (I > even once hacked it over to use the 25th line of my H19 to display the > ruler line), but the earliest I used on MS-DOS was 3.3. I believe there > was a version earlier than 3.3 on MS-DOS (3.0, maybe?), but I never ran > across it. I probably have my versions mixed up. It's been a long time and I was very young back then. -Philip From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 28 14:34:40 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: AOL Disks Collectable - why not? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Hi, I'm Doug and I collect AOL disks. Well, not really, but I do have >*one*. AOL actually produced a disk that was labeled "collector's >edition". I found it so funny that I saved it -- sort of a self-fulfilling >prophecy.... > >-- Doug I've also saved *one*, it was a mini-CD. It's the only one I've ever seen so I saved it. Of course I've no idea where it is... All the floppies were reused a *long* time ago. When I was still using floppies regularly, I'd quit buying them becuase I was getting so many AOL floppies. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From elvey at hal.com Fri Apr 28 14:38:36 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: Can a Mac Portable battery be "trickle charged"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200004281938.MAA09720@civic.hal.com> ard > I've shorted these units accidentally (typically the multiple output > connectors manage to touch each other) and had them get _very_ hot > without burning out the transformer. Hot enough to melt the plastic > sleeving on the electrolytics, etc. And hot enough that I couldn't hold > the case. In no case did the primary winding open, and there was no fuse > or thermal fuse anywhere in the circuit. Hi Tony They probably cheated on the wire. The insulation on the primary wire is suppose to melt, shorting turns. This is suppose to cause the incoming fine wire, that leads from the lugs to the primary, to burn open. This is what they are tested to do but like anything, some purchasing agent may have seen that wire x was cheaper at company xx and made the change without realizing the reasons for using a particular wire. These are the kinds of problems that the ISO stuff was suppose to stop but it seems it is only good for lawers that back track booboos. Since UL can't look at every unit shipped, the entire thing is subject to human error. Dwight From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Apr 28 14:42:27 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: AOL Disks Collectable - why not? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Hi, I'm Doug and I collect AOL disks. Well, not really, but I do have >*one*. AOL actually produced a disk that was labeled "collector's I just can't believe all of you crazy computer collectors making fun of AOL CDROM collectors, those AOL CDs are VERY usefull. I have one I put on top of my tea cup so the "warmer" on my desk will actually heat it up from cold. Try that with a beanie baby! BTW I know someone who is a "major" beanie trader and claims to have made over 2 million bucks in the last few years. From cem14 at cornell.edu Fri Apr 28 14:48:47 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: Gene Sequencer at rummage shop in Seattle. References: <000101bfb132$795bbe40$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: <3909EB1F.23AC3397@cornell.edu> Ernest wrote: > Also, it looks old, like from the late > sixties-early seventies (just a guess.) If it is that old, then it is likely that "gene sequencing" had a different meaning than the one accepted today; I don't think that "gene sequencing" as accepted today has existed for more than 15 years, but I could be wrong. -- Carlos Murillo-Sanchez email: cem14@cornell.edu 428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853 From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Apr 28 14:44:16 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:09 2005 Subject: AOL Disks Collectable In-Reply-To: References: <200004280101.SAA22108@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000428143358.02c3f720@pc> At 09:07 PM 4/27/00 -0500, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: >Someone mind explaining what possible reason anyone could have for >wanting to collect 75% of the stuff on Ebay now! www.ebay.com? Isn't that actually www.sanfordandson.com? It's not unusual for something that's ubiquitous and throw-away to increase in value years after it was "carpet-bombed." Almost everyone threw them away, right, like Monkees lunchboxes. And to think I almost gave away my 18 inches of junk CDs to a friend who wanted to use them to replace the ceiling tiles in his rec room... - John From rivie at teraglobal.com Fri Apr 28 15:01:06 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: Opening CP/M files (.asm/.bas) In-Reply-To: <20000428152340.A7261@dbit.dbit.com> References: <000001bfb12e$b6ec1380$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> <20000428152340.A7261@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: >On Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 11:26:59AM -0600, Roger Ivie wrote: > > I don't know anything about the BIOS implementations on the Z80 >cards, but I > > use the exact same executable of Kermit on a variety of CP/M hardware. > >It's been a while, but I clearly remember that building CP/M Kermit for >the TRS-80 Model II required a special version of one of the source files >(probably just for SET SPEED etc., the Model II wasn't as weird as the other >TRS-80s so ORG 100H wasn't a problem), and they had versions for lots of >other machines too. Maybe you're safe on any machine as long as you don't >try to set the comm parameters though. In addition to not setting the comm parameters, the BIOS must support the IOBYTE. I don't know if this is the case for the Apple add-in cards, which is why I said "I don't know anything about the BIOS implementations on the Z80 cards" above. -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From transit at lerctr.org Fri Apr 28 15:24:30 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: AOL Disks Collectable In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000428143358.02c3f720@pc> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Apr 2000, John Foust wrote: > At 09:07 PM 4/27/00 -0500, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > >Someone mind explaining what possible reason anyone could have for > >wanting to collect 75% of the stuff on Ebay now! > > www.ebay.com? Isn't that actually www.sanfordandson.com? Oh Elizabeth! I'm coming up to meet you now! :-) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 28 15:12:59 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: Can a Mac Portable battery be "trickle charged"? In-Reply-To: <200004281938.MAA09720@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at Apr 28, 0 12:38:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2098 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000428/287e5e1b/attachment.ksh From paulrsm at ameritech.net Fri Apr 28 16:12:09 2000 From: paulrsm at ameritech.net (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: AOL Disks Collectable Message-ID: <20000428213728.HVWP785.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> ---------- > From: healyzh@aracnet.com > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: AOL Disks Collectable > Date: Thursday, April 27, 2000 09:01 PM > > Someone mind explaining what possible reason *ANYONE* could have for wanting > to collect AOL disks! I actually do have a set of AOL disks I am keeping. It installs the old GeoWorks desktop instead of using Windows. I do not know if I will ever use them, though. Paul R. Santa-Maria Ann Arbor, Michigan USA paulrsm@ameritech.net From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Apr 28 16:53:20 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: Gene Sequencer at rummage shop in Seattle. Message-ID: <000428175320.20200829@trailing-edge.com> >The most truly amazing surplus story I've ever heard was that of a fellow that >acquired a surplus Plutonium processing plant from INEL, up in Idaho. The >government managed to stop him from shipping it to India, but it was a close >thing. A close second was when the Air Force was auctioning off their never-used Vandenberg space shuttle launch pad and auxilluary equipment. Sure, it doesn't do you any good until you've got a shuttle to launch, but who here wouldn't want to say "We already got one" to this? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From peter at joules0.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 28 17:09:56 2000 From: peter at joules0.demon.co.uk (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: IBM 8" Disks - What are they? Message-ID: Amongst the things which I saved from the skip I have 4 IBM 8" floppies, the labels say: MAP ENTRY DISKETTE **M.T.=5412** P/N=4410338 E.C.=571989 DIAGN.DISK. 1 -------------------------------------------------------- CONTENTS, 0D0-FFB-FFF-FD6-143-FC0,DD6,D44, FC2,DD9,C17-FA0,FA6,FA7 -------------------------------------------------------- STAND ALONE DISKETTE **M.T.=5412** P/N=4247991 E.C.=571931 DIAGN.DISK. 2 -------------------------------------------------------- CONTENTS, LDR-FC0,LD5-FA0,E0A -------------------------------------------------------- 3340 MICRO DIAGNOSTIC DISKETTE **M.T.=5412** P/N=4247992 E.C.=571989 DIAGN.DISK. 3 -------------------------------------------------------- CONTENTS, C16-FA1-FA2-FA3-FA4-FA5 -------------------------------------------------------- 3340 DIAGNOSTIC DISKETTE **M.T.=5412** P/N=4247993 E.C.=571931 DIAGN.DISK. 4 -------------------------------------------------------- CONTENTS, C11,C12,C14,C15,C17-FA0,C18,C19, C1A,C1B,C1F -------------------------------------------------------- Can anyone tell me what these are and what they were for? I realise that they were for diagnostics of some sort and assume that the **M.T.=5412** is probably a machine type, but I am not familiar with IBM's designation numbers. At the bottom of the label is what I assume is a date in the format 77/01/05 - if my assumption is correct then these must be 30 years old. -- Regards Pete From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Apr 28 17:21:39 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: IBM 8" Disks - What are they? Message-ID: <000428182139.20200829@trailing-edge.com> >3340 MICRO DIAGNOSTIC DISKETTE **M.T.=5412** > >3340 DIAGNOSTIC DISKETTE **M.T.=5412** > >Can anyone tell me what these are and what they were for? I don't know about the others, but the IBM 3340 was the *original* Winchester drive. (Not "a" Winchester, but *The* Winchester.) >At the bottom of the label is what I assume is a date in the format >77/01/05 - if my assumption is correct then these must be 30 years old. The 3340 was rolled out in 1973, but they certainly were still in service in 1977, so that's consistent. I'm sure the floppies are still readable; I've read many 8" IBM 3740 floppies form the early 70's without a problem. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Apr 28 17:32:13 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: Gene Sequencer at rummage shop in Seattle. In-Reply-To: <000101bfb132$795bbe40$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> from Ernest at "Apr 28, 0 09:54:52 am" Message-ID: <200004282232.PAA09524@oa.ptloma.edu> ::PS. They also have a very nice and complete Commodore Plus 4, with floppy ::drive and matching printer that looks to be a cool little system. What model drive and printer? I'm looking for a 1551. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- How can you be in two places at once when you're not anywhere at all? -- F.T. From Glenatacme at aol.com Fri Apr 28 17:35:13 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: PKZips Phil Katz dead Message-ID: <65.39a1a37.263b6c21@aol.com> << > he wrote PKZIP, and within a year ARC was no longer the defacto standard for > BBS's. I believe the company that wrote ARC is now extinct. Serves them right. >> Hmm . . . I'm not sure I understand this point of view. Katz _stole_ the algorithm from ARC -- why shouldn't they sue? I was using ARC and PKZIP extensively back in '88-'89 and IIRC Katz reverse-engineered the ARC code in order to make his product work. If this happened to me I would lose my sense of humor very quickly . . . Glen 0/0 From Innfogra at aol.com Fri Apr 28 17:40:35 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: Gene Sequencer at rummage shop in Seattle. Message-ID: <67.36bee59.263b6d63@aol.com> One of my favorite surplus stories is when Intel sold us a new in the carton Cryogenic compressor as part of a large lot. It turns out it was a spare for the process line. Within a couple of weeks of us taking possession the main compressor failed. We sold it back for more than the price of the lot. We didn't soak them, we wanted more of their surplus. Someone in Seattle should go look at the "gene sequencer" and see what the Teletype is hooked up to. It could be a nice collectable. Paxton From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Apr 28 17:41:33 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: IBM 8" Disks - What are they? In-Reply-To: <000428182139.20200829@trailing-edge.com> (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) References: <000428182139.20200829@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20000428224133.32123.qmail@brouhaha.com> >>3340 MICRO DIAGNOSTIC DISKETTE **M.T.=5412** > I don't know about the others, but the IBM 3340 was the *original* > Winchester drive. (Not "a" Winchester, but *The* Winchester.) If so, wouldn't those be the original IBM "Minnow" diskettes, which are not compatible with the later 3740 and System/3 formats that became industry-standard? The Minnow was a 90 RPM read-only drive. It was hard-sectored, and the index/sector hole was near the edge of the diskette rather than near the hub. It was specifically designed for loading microcode on System/370 CPUs and peripheral controllers (such as disk systems). The IBM Figaro drive, later shortened to "Igar", was the first "modern" read-write 360 RPM single-density 8-inch drive. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Apr 28 18:09:53 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: PKZips Phil Katz dead In-Reply-To: <65.39a1a37.263b6c21@aol.com> (Glenatacme@aol.com) References: <65.39a1a37.263b6c21@aol.com> Message-ID: <20000428230953.32293.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Hmm . . . I'm not sure I understand this point of view. Katz _stole_ the > algorithm from ARC -- why shouldn't they sue? "Stole" the algorithm? Unless they had a patent on it, which AFAIK they didn't, it's not intellectual property to steal. (Under US law, at least.) On what grounds would they have a basis to sue? The actual issue was that they claimed to have a trademark on the use of "ARC" as a file extension. Despite the fact that there were known cases of that extension being used by other software before SEA's program was even written. My understanding is that P.K. decided to choose another name rather than fighting SEA. > I was using ARC and PKZIP extensively back in '88-'89 and IIRC Katz > reverse-engineered the ARC code in order to make his product work. Which was legal, and would still be legal now (the DMCA notwithstanding). > If this happened to me I would lose my sense of humor very quickly . . . If this happened to me I'd work hard to make sure that my product offered a sufficiently good value proposition to the customer that it kept selling. If a product fails to do that, it *deserves* to be consigned to oblivion. Just because your product was selling well at some point at the past doesn't imply any god-given right or entitlement that it should continue to do so in the future with no further effort on your part. From donm at cts.com Fri Apr 28 18:44:10 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: Gene Sequencer at rummage shop in Seattle. In-Reply-To: <000428175320.20200829@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Apr 2000 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >The most truly amazing surplus story I've ever heard was that of a fellow that > >acquired a surplus Plutonium processing plant from INEL, up in Idaho. The > >government managed to stop him from shipping it to India, but it was a close > >thing. > > A close second was when the Air Force was auctioning off their never-used > Vandenberg space shuttle launch pad and auxilluary equipment. Sure, it > doesn't do you any good until you've got a shuttle to launch, but who here > wouldn't want to say "We already got one" to this? Yeah, Tim, but did you have to move it? - don > -- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > From donm at cts.com Fri Apr 28 18:47:52 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: IBM 8" Disks - What are they? In-Reply-To: <000428182139.20200829@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Apr 2000 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >3340 MICRO DIAGNOSTIC DISKETTE **M.T.=5412** > > > >3340 DIAGNOSTIC DISKETTE **M.T.=5412** > > > >Can anyone tell me what these are and what they were for? > > I don't know about the others, but the IBM 3340 was the *original* > Winchester drive. (Not "a" Winchester, but *The* Winchester.) Did it not also introduce the 8" DSDD drive and diskettes? Is the index hole on these at about 1:30? - don > >At the bottom of the label is what I assume is a date in the format > >77/01/05 - if my assumption is correct then these must be 30 years old. > > The 3340 was rolled out in 1973, but they certainly were still in service > in 1977, so that's consistent. > > I'm sure the floppies are still readable; I've read many 8" IBM 3740 floppies > form the early 70's without a problem. > > -- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 28 18:52:46 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: IBM 8" Disks - What are they? References: <000428182139.20200829@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <000701bfb16c$daff1e00$0400c0a8@winbook> Gee . . . How does that square with the age-old tale that the term winchester came from their model 3030? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, April 28, 2000 4:21 PM Subject: RE: IBM 8" Disks - What are they? > >3340 MICRO DIAGNOSTIC DISKETTE **M.T.=5412** > > > >3340 DIAGNOSTIC DISKETTE **M.T.=5412** > > > >Can anyone tell me what these are and what they were for? > > I don't know about the others, but the IBM 3340 was the *original* > Winchester drive. (Not "a" Winchester, but *The* Winchester.) > > >At the bottom of the label is what I assume is a date in the format > >77/01/05 - if my assumption is correct then these must be 30 years old. > > The 3340 was rolled out in 1973, but they certainly were still in service > in 1977, so that's consistent. > > I'm sure the floppies are still readable; I've read many 8" IBM 3740 floppies > form the early 70's without a problem. > > -- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Apr 28 17:06:20 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: AOL Disks Collectable - why not? Message-ID: <005401bfb167$778e8540$7b64c0d0@ajp166> >Hi, I'm Doug and I collect AOL disks. Well, not really, but I do have >*one*. AOL actually produced a disk that was labeled "collector's >edition". I found it so funny that I saved it -- sort of a self-fulfilling >prophecy.... I use AOL, Earthlink and CS cdroms for things like IE4.01 as cdrom and there are other items buried on them like patches and infamous SPn kits from MS with security fixes. I don't however collect them as collectables and teh excess are cut up as sun catchers. ;) Allison From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Apr 28 19:24:27 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: IBM 8" Disks - What are they? In-Reply-To: <000701bfb16c$daff1e00$0400c0a8@winbook> (edick@idcomm.com) References: <000428182139.20200829@trailing-edge.com> <000701bfb16c$daff1e00$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <20000429002427.32670.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Gee . . . How does that square with the age-old tale that the term > winchester came from their model 3030? IIRC, it was not based on the model number, but the capacities of the platters, 30MB each. From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Fri Apr 28 19:26:24 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: IBM 8" Disks - What are they? Message-ID: <20000429002624.90378.qmail@hotmail.com> >Amongst the things which I saved from the skip I have 4 >IBM 8" floppies, >the labels say: > >MAP ENTRY DISKETTE **M.T.=5412** >P/N=4410338 E.C.=571989 DIAGN.DISK. 1 >-------------------------------------------------------- >CONTENTS, 0D0-FFB-FFF-FD6-143-FC0,DD6,D44, > FC2,DD9,C17-FA0,FA6,FA7 >-------------------------------------------------------- > > > >STAND ALONE DISKETTE **M.T.=5412** >P/N=4247991 E.C.=571931 DIAGN.DISK. 2 >-------------------------------------------------------- >CONTENTS, LDR-FC0,LD5-FA0,E0A > >-------------------------------------------------------- > > >3340 MICRO DIAGNOSTIC DISKETTE **M.T.=5412** >P/N=4247992 E.C.=571989 DIAGN.DISK. 3 > >-------------------------------------------------------- >CONTENTS, C16-FA1-FA2-FA3-FA4-FA5 > >-------------------------------------------------------- > > >3340 DIAGNOSTIC DISKETTE **M.T.=5412** >P/N=4247993 E.C.=571931 DIAGN.DISK. 4 > >-------------------------------------------------------- >CONTENTS, C11,C12,C14,C15,C17-FA0,C18,C19, > C1A,C1B,C1F >-------------------------------------------------------- > >Can anyone tell me what these are and what they were for? > >I realise that they were for diagnostics of some sort >and assume that the >**M.T.=5412** is probably a machine >type, but I am not familiar with IBM's >designation >numbers. > >At the bottom of the label is what I assume is a date in >the format >77/01/05 - if my assumption is correct then >these must be 30 years old. > >-- >Regards >Pete Someting else intresting about those disks: The "CONTENTS" section is actually a *directory*! Many IBM minis & mainframes that used FDD's did not have an FAT on the disk! The result: you had to provide the track & sector location on every disk access! a similar scheme was used in the prototypical (and unreleased) Commodore 900 workstation. ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From vaxman at uswest.net Fri Apr 28 19:18:41 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: Spamming the list In-Reply-To: <200004280817.EAA14467@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: I'd call it spam... If the items are being given away, or an infrequent posting by someone with something they dearly love but can't store anymore is okay, but I'd rather not see any more postings about the computer parts barn. If enough other people want the information, perhaps a one time posting of a semi-complete inventory would be acceptable to all? The best solution would be for the owner to create a website and make shipping options available. Maybe you could trade some HTML coding for some choice bits for yourself. Just my $.02... Clint On Fri, 28 Apr 2000 technoid@cheta.net wrote: > If anyone feels I am spamming the list by posting my finds at CPB please > let me know and I will cease my messages. > > My plan is to Increase the number of messages regarding finds as well as > thier content and detail. > > This is mainly to support my computer habit. If I can't afford it, at > least I can get some sticktime to get the detail you guys and gals want > before you buy. Also to get some warm fuzzies for myself knowing another > hacker has the box I had my hands on. > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jeffrey S. Worley > Technical Services > Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. > 1979B Hendersonville Road > Asheville, NC 28803 > 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days > 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax > Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? > Technoid@Cheta.net > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > From marvin at rain.org Fri Apr 28 19:36:26 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: PKZips Phil Katz dead References: <65.39a1a37.263b6c21@aol.com> Message-ID: <390A2E8A.B193984F@rain.org> Glenatacme@aol.com wrote: > > << > he wrote PKZIP, and within a year ARC was no longer the defacto standard > for > > BBS's. I believe the company that wrote ARC is now extinct. Serves them > right. >> > > Hmm . . . I'm not sure I understand this point of view. Katz _stole_ the > algorithm from ARC -- why shouldn't they sue? > > I was using ARC and PKZIP extensively back in '88-'89 and IIRC Katz > reverse-engineered the ARC code in order to make his product work. IIRC, part of the reason for the suit was that if SEA did not sue, they would stand a good chance of losing their right to the name "ARC". PKzip was written as a result of losing that suit. I recall that sentiments ran high when SEA initiated the suit and there was a lot of "so there" on the part of BBS sysops which contributed greatly to the very fast acceptance of ZIP as the standard archiving method. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Apr 28 21:18:58 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: Fluke DOS Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000428211858.358f65d4@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi, I picked up a second FLuke 1722 today. This one does have the keyboard (at last)! But I still haven't found the operating system software for it. Can anyone help? It uses Fluke's F-DOS. I'd also like to find a manual for it. The 1722 is an instrument controller. It has a built in touch sensative screen that measures about 5 x 7 inches. It also has one built in RS-232 port and one HP-IB port and it's controlled by a TMS9900 CPU. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Apr 28 20:38:07 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: AOL Disks Collectable - why not? In-Reply-To: References: <005a01bfb138$90a3c4c0$fd83fea9@office> <7f.39da01b.263af1bc@aol.com> <00dc01bfb11d$6e8f0d60$ae89b7d1@kstumpf> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000428203807.261fe120@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 10:25 AM 4/28/00 -0700, Zane wrote: > >>Most of the people I know feel people who collect computers are nuts. Can't >>blame them really - there are much *nicer* things to place in a home. > >But don't most of us that collect computers think that people that collect >computers are nuts? I know I've come to that conclusion! Especially those >of us that like collecting *big* systems (yes, such as my /44). > > I guess that you could argue that ANY collector is nuts. Why collect paintings when a photo is more realistic and cheaper? Why collect cars that can't be driven and that take up large amounts of room and that are a potential fire hazard? Why collect Beanie Babies? They're just cheap stuffed toys. You get the point. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Apr 28 20:52:47 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: IBM 8" Disks - What are they? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000428205247.358fa9ce@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 11:09 PM 4/28/00 +0100, you wrote: >Amongst the things which I saved from the skip I have 4 IBM 8" floppies, >the labels say: > >MAP ENTRY DISKETTE I don't remember the exact wording but M.A.P. is IBM's term for the troubleshooting/fault isolation flowchart. Some/all/most of the big IBMs come with a MAP book that has the flowcharts in it. I'm guessing that the disk contains some software that was needed for that. FWIW all of the big IBM stuff that I've seen comes with one or more 8" (yes, 8 inch) floppy disks that contain diagnostics and setup software. I have a MD-2 (Maintenance Device 2) that is used to operate and test many different pieces of IBM equipment and it uses the 8" floppies. I don't know if IBM is still sending out software on 8" disks but I do know that the MD-2 is still a current item. Joe From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Apr 28 20:42:28 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: IBM 8" Disks - What are they? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000428205247.358fa9ce@mailhost.intellistar.net> (message from Joe on Fri, 28 Apr 2000 20:52:47 -0500) References: <3.0.1.16.20000428205247.358fa9ce@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <20000429014228.637.qmail@brouhaha.com> Joe wrote: > I don't remember the exact wording but M.A.P. is IBM's term for the > troubleshooting/fault isolation flowchart. Yup. Stands for Maintenance Analysis Procedures. Normally used in conjunction with a "Maintenance Information Manual". From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri Apr 28 22:29:09 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (johnb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: AOL Disks Collectable - why not? References: <005a01bfb138$90a3c4c0$fd83fea9@office><7f.39da01b.263af1bc@aol.com> <00dc01bfb11d$6e8f0d60$ae89b7d1@kstumpf> <3.0.1.16.20000428203807.261fe120@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <00c801bfb18b$14ee5f40$fd83fea9@office> ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe To: Sent: Friday, April 28, 2000 9:38 PM Subject: Re: AOL Disks Collectable - why not? > At 10:25 AM 4/28/00 -0700, Zane wrote: > > > >>Most of the people I know feel people who collect computers are nuts. Can't > >>blame them really - there are much *nicer* things to place in a home. > > > >But don't most of us that collect computers think that people that collect > >computers are nuts? I know I've come to that conclusion! Especially those > >of us that like collecting *big* systems (yes, such as my /44). > > > > > > I guess that you could argue that ANY collector is nuts. Why collect > paintings when a photo is more realistic and cheaper? Why collect cars that > can't be driven and that take up large amounts of room and that are a > potential fire hazard? Why collect Beanie Babies? They're just cheap > stuffed toys. You get the point. I don't think any collector is nuts. One who stores items *beyond* a livable inventory may have problems. "Nuts" being the person who can't give anything up where severe damage to everything else is the result, ie: House caving in, neglecting family, etc... Someone collecting Furnace Registers on eBay is no more crazy than someone collecting computers. I have been lucky enough not to get "attached" to any computer or other collectable item so selling them does not bother me at all... that was until I got the PDP-8/S - I still feel ill about selling both of them! john > > Joe > > From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Fri Apr 28 20:52:51 2000 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Kevin Stumpf/Unusual Systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: IBM 8" Disks - What are they? References: Message-ID: <010d01bfb17d$a1909a20$ae89b7d1@kstumpf> The IBM 5412 was the Model 12 of the System/3 family. Ask Henk in Europe, he has one. The 3340 was compatible with the System/3 line. Ask William D. he bought my System/3 Model 15 with 3340 drives. ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Joules To: Sent: Friday, April 28, 2000 6:09 PM Subject: IBM 8" Disks - What are they? > Amongst the things which I saved from the skip I have 4 IBM 8" floppies, > the labels say: > > MAP ENTRY DISKETTE **M.T.=5412** > P/N=4410338 E.C.=571989 DIAGN.DISK. 1 > -------------------------------------------------------- > CONTENTS, 0D0-FFB-FFF-FD6-143-FC0,DD6,D44, > FC2,DD9,C17-FA0,FA6,FA7 > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > STAND ALONE DISKETTE **M.T.=5412** > P/N=4247991 E.C.=571931 DIAGN.DISK. 2 > -------------------------------------------------------- > CONTENTS, LDR-FC0,LD5-FA0,E0A > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > 3340 MICRO DIAGNOSTIC DISKETTE **M.T.=5412** > P/N=4247992 E.C.=571989 DIAGN.DISK. 3 > > -------------------------------------------------------- > CONTENTS, C16-FA1-FA2-FA3-FA4-FA5 > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > 3340 DIAGNOSTIC DISKETTE **M.T.=5412** > P/N=4247993 E.C.=571931 DIAGN.DISK. 4 > > -------------------------------------------------------- > CONTENTS, C11,C12,C14,C15,C17-FA0,C18,C19, > C1A,C1B,C1F > -------------------------------------------------------- > > Can anyone tell me what these are and what they were for? > > I realise that they were for diagnostics of some sort and assume that > the **M.T.=5412** is probably a machine type, but I am not familiar with > IBM's designation numbers. > > At the bottom of the label is what I assume is a date in the format > 77/01/05 - if my assumption is correct then these must be 30 years old. > > -- > Regards > Pete From schoedel at kw.igs.net Fri Apr 28 21:51:30 2000 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: Fluke DOS In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000428211858.358f65d4@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <3.0.1.16.20000428211858.358f65d4@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On 2000/04/28 at 9:18pm -0500, Joe wrote: > I picked up a second FLuke 1722 today. This one does have the keyboard >(at last)! But I still haven't found the operating system software for it. >Can anyone help? It uses Fluke's F-DOS. I'd also like to find a manual >for it. I a Fluke 1720A with F-DOS. If there are grounds to believe that the same software would work, I can try to do something about copying or archiving the disks soon(er than I otherwise would). I might have multiple copies already, though I seem to recall that only one was reliably readable. I certainly do have multiple copies of the 1720A manuals. > The 1722 is an instrument controller. It has a built in touch sensative >screen that measures about 5 x 7 inches. It also has one built in RS-232 >port and one HP-IB port and it's controlled by a TMS9900 CPU. The 1720A is also TMS9900 based. It also has a touch-sensitive screen, about 3" x 8", on the left; on the right, a 5.25" floppy drive. Behind the floppy is a backplane holding 7"x10" cards: (1) CPU, plus two RS232; (2) floppy controller; (3) memory; (4) extended memory, used as a battery-backed RAM disk (though I believe one chip is bad, and the batteries are long gone); (5) empty; (6) video; (7) two IEEE488 (HPIB) ports. The video card is actually itself a TMS9900-based terminal (9981 chip specifically); i.e. the CPU talks to it as if it were a separate terminal. I actually have two of these, though one doesn't quite work. Also a 2400A 'Measurement and Control Link', which is a HPIB device with a backplane for interface cards, along with two 2401A backplane extension boxes and a matching stack of 4-wire input cards. (I'm not particularly attached to any of this, but it wouldn't be cheap to ship.) One question for the general list. F-DOS has a 'PIP-equivalent' called FUP, for "File Utility Program". I remember once seeing some other, older system that also had a FUP command (with somewhat different syntax), but I can't remember which... what was that other system? -- Kevin Schoedel schoedel@kw.igs.net From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri Apr 28 22:30:32 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: VAX on TV??? Message-ID: <200004290330.XAA08361@dbit.dbit.com> Did anyone else see this? Last night's episode of Just Shoot Me on NBC had a scene (watching surveillance tapes with a security guard) with what looked to me like a 780ish VAX in the background. Not like I would know, I don't get to see a lot of VAXes, but it was huge and featureless with a blue stripe across the top of the cabs. And what looked like some kind of top-loader on the left-hand side. Could be wrong, but I got a nice warm feeling anyway. I would expect to see this kind of thing showing up when the script says "cramped room with electronic equipment in background" ten years ago, but now? John Wilson D Bit From edick at idcomm.com Fri Apr 28 22:33:50 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: What to use as a substitute for the NCR5380?? Message-ID: <001701bfb18b$bd105d40$0400c0a8@winbook> Do any of you guys know of a code-compatible substitute for the NCR 5380 that's available currently? Dick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000428/814b64f7/attachment.html From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Apr 28 23:04:06 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: Weird question, VAX VS4000/VLC Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000428210221.02e26830@208.226.86.10> I've got two VAX VS4000/VLC workstations, both with 24MB, one with a disk and one without. One takes two or three minutes to perform the memory test at power on and the other takes maybe 20 - 30 seconds. Any idea what could cause this descrepancy? --Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Apr 29 00:17:21 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: VMS fun, stand backup? In-Reply-To: <000426204757.202006ba@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000428221457.02fed450@208.226.86.10> Ok, all this has me trying to upgrade to VMS 7.0 since a) I have the Media kit and b) I'd like to try clustering dissimilar machines. I found a CDROM drive that can boot the CD, and it boots into standlone backup. What are the two commands to prepare the local hard drive and then unpack on to it? --Chuck (asking here while searching the web and archives ...) From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Apr 29 01:06:15 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: VMS fun, stand backup? In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000428221457.02fed450@208.226.86.10> References: <000426204757.202006ba@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: >Ok, all this has me trying to upgrade to VMS 7.0 since a) I have the Media >kit and b) I'd like to try clustering dissimilar machines. I found a CDROM >drive that can boot the CD, and it boots into standlone backup. What are >the two commands to prepare the local hard drive and then unpack on to it? > >--Chuck >(asking here while searching the web and archives ...) I think this is what you want http://www.montagar.com/~patj/vbegin.htm Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Apr 29 01:06:46 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: Weird question, VAX VS4000/VLC In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000428210221.02e26830@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: >I've got two VAX VS4000/VLC workstations, both with 24MB, one with a disk >and one without. > >One takes two or three minutes to perform the memory test at power on and >the other takes maybe 20 - 30 seconds. Any idea what could cause this >descrepancy? > >--Chuck I believe it's two different types of RAM tests, it sounds like the one has the abbreviated search set. At least ISTR reading about that when I was looking through a manual for the VLC's last weekend. Unfortunatly that manual isn't accessable right now. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mrbill at mrbill.net Sat Apr 29 01:09:31 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: VAX on TV??? In-Reply-To: <200004290330.XAA08361@dbit.dbit.com>; from wilson@dbit.dbit.com on Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 11:30:32PM -0400 References: <200004290330.XAA08361@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000429010931.G12705@mrbill.net> On Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 11:30:32PM -0400, John Wilson wrote: > Did anyone else see this? Last night's episode of Just Shoot Me on NBC > had a scene (watching surveillance tapes with a security guard) with what > looked to me like a 780ish VAX in the background. Not like I would know, > I don't get to see a lot of VAXes, but it was huge and featureless with a > blue stripe across the top of the cabs. And what looked like some kind of > top-loader on the left-hand side. > Could be wrong, but I got a nice warm feeling anyway. I would expect to > see this kind of thing showing up when the script says "cramped room with > electronic equipment in background" ten years ago, but now? > John Wilson > D Bit I saw a bunch of old SGI SkyWriters (full 19" enclosed-rack VME beasts) on an old episode of "Viper" the other day - at their "HQ" in the "power plant", they're the big purple boxes near their "computers". 8-) Bill -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Apr 29 01:57:22 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: OT: The Drop Squad Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000428235722.009a4e60@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Ok... I'm sorry, but this is just too darned funny! www.dropsquad.com Trust me. Ok? Don't ask, just type it in. Keep the peace(es). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Apr 29 02:05:21 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: VAX 4000/VLC drive bracket? Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000429000258.02fdcb00@208.226.86.10> One of my VLC's is sans drive and I noticed that the bracket is different from the one that M3100 uses. Does anyone have a spare? If so tell me what you'd like for it. BTW, Thanks Zane, I got VMS installing. I don't know what changed between 7.0 and 7.2 but I do know that 7.0 is going to be more complete than 5.2 :-). --Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Apr 29 02:06:08 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: Weird question, VAX VS4000/VLC In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.1.2.20000428210221.02e26830@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000429000540.03004ef0@208.226.86.10> At 11:06 PM 4/28/00 -0700, Zane wrote: >I believe it's two different types of RAM tests, it sounds like the one has >the abbreviated search set. Yup, >>> SET FBOOT 1 is the answer. --Chuck From michael at camaronet.de Sat Apr 29 00:16:39 2000 From: michael at camaronet.de (Michael Kukat) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: VAX on TV??? In-Reply-To: <200004290330.XAA08361@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: Hi ! On Fri, 28 Apr 2000, John Wilson wrote: [VAX on TV] > Could be wrong, but I got a nice warm feeling anyway. I would expect to > see this kind of thing showing up when the script says "cramped room with > electronic equipment in background" ten years ago, but now? I recently saw some top corner of a VAX 4000 in a documentation on TV here, including some other VAX-related DEC-stuff standing around there. But on the movies, it seems to be hard to spot a VAX. ...Michael -- Michael@camaronet.de, Rottweil/Germany, http://www.camaronet.de Visit the german VAXpage: http://www.vaxpower.de From peter at joules0.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 29 05:29:32 2000 From: peter at joules0.demon.co.uk (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: IBM 8" Disks - What are they? In-Reply-To: <20000429002624.90378.qmail@hotmail.com> References: <20000429002624.90378.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: In article <20000429002624.90378.qmail@hotmail.com>, David Vohs writes >Someting else intresting about those disks: The "CONTENTS" section is >actually a *directory*! Interesting, I had wondered why it seemed to be in hex. >Many IBM minis & mainframes that used FDD's did not >have an FAT on the disk! The result: you had to provide the track & sector >location on every disk access! Sounds tedious, surely that was impractical wasn't it? Wouldn't it require the operator to keep a hand written directory in order to tell it where to make the next write? -- Regards Pete From stan at netcom.com Sat Apr 29 09:00:10 2000 From: stan at netcom.com (Stan Perkins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: Fluke DOS References: <3.0.1.16.20000428211858.358f65d4@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <390AEAEA.6214EF@netcom.com> Joe, I have the two FDOS floppies around here somewhere. IIRC, one is the actual OS, and the other is the diagnostics and utilities. The big problem for me will be duplicating them, as I'm not sure if I still have a working PC with a 5-1/4" drive! But if I find one, I'd be happy to make copies for you (and anyone else on the list who needs them, providing I can also find a source of 5-1/4" blank floppies). Regards, Stan Joe wrote: > > Hi, > > I picked up a second FLuke 1722 today. This one does have the keyboard > (at last)! But I still haven't found the operating system software for it. > Can anyone help? It uses Fluke's F-DOS. I'd also like to find a manual > for it. > > The 1722 is an instrument controller. It has a built in touch sensative > screen that measures about 5 x 7 inches. It also has one built in RS-232 > port and one HP-IB port and it's controlled by a TMS9900 CPU. > > Joe From andy.sporner at networkengines.com Sat Apr 29 09:15:37 2000 From: andy.sporner at networkengines.com (Andy Sporner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: VAX on TV??? Message-ID: <8D18C4F9CBA1D311900F00A0C990C97F67C820@neimail.networkengines.com> Hi, > I recently saw some top corner of a VAX 4000 in a documentation on TV here, > including some other VAX-related DEC-stuff standing around there. But on the > movies, it seems to be hard to spot a VAX. Perhaps in the German movies, but you can see a room full of 11/725's and 11/750's in a movie called "D.A.R.R.Y.L". Andy From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Apr 29 08:05:49 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: VMS fun, stand backup? Message-ID: <00b601bfb1dd$a776e920$7b64c0d0@ajp166> >Ok, all this has me trying to upgrade to VMS 7.0 since a) I have the Media >kit and b) I'd like to try clustering dissimilar machines. I found a CDROM >drive that can boot the CD, and it boots into standlone backup. What are >the two commands to prepare the local hard drive and then unpack on to it? OK, here comes... Assumptions, DKA700 is the cdrom, DKA200 is the target disk. $ backup/image dka400:VMS070.b/save dka200: when done copying you will be asked if the system is to continue type YES. Then halt the machine. To actually run the install... >>>Boot DKA200 The rest will be obvious. Allison From wrking at tsoft.com Sat Apr 29 10:58:20 2000 From: wrking at tsoft.com (William King) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: 11/23+ question Message-ID: <000301bfb1f3$bdd3b200$bf01a8c0@dadaboom.com> I was wondering if anyone had an idea about an 11/23+ I picked up recently. It's a normal looking 11/23+, but the UART closest to the console connecters is replaced by a 40 pin socket. The socket has a ribbon cable attached which goes to a small board (2x3.5 inches) that contains a UART and a couple of other chips (notebly a dallas ds2010). Looking at the socket, it's not a rework, I believe the board came this way from DEC. The small board has a part number 010-01135-00 rev b etched on it. Thanks, Bill King From dogas at leading.net Sat Apr 29 11:29:01 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: RCA Dev System IV another update... Message-ID: <000801bfb1f8$09918240$ca646464@dogclient01> From: technoid@cheta.net >Excellent. What are the specs on the machine or do you know yet? > I thought I'd start posting some of my notes as I jump into this machine that I'm already beginning to love dearly. This first post covers the COSMAC's features, organization, archetecture and instruction format if anyone is interested: http://users.leading.net/~dogas/classiccmp/cosmac/note1.htm More soon... Please let me know if I misrepresented anything. Cheers - Mike: dogas@leading.net From dogas at leading.net Sat Apr 29 11:29:01 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: RCA Dev System IV another update... Message-ID: <000201bfb1f8$1ab15be0$ca646464@dogclient01> From: technoid@cheta.net >Excellent. What are the specs on the machine or do you know yet? > I thought I'd start posting some of my notes as I jump into this machine that I'm already beginning to love dearly. This first post covers the COSMAC's features, organization, archetecture and instruction format if anyone is interested: http://users.leading.net/~dogas/classiccmp/cosmac/note1.htm More soon... Please let me know if I misrepresented anything. Cheers - Mike: dogas@leading.net From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Apr 29 12:38:52 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: 11/23+ question Message-ID: <000429133852.202008b6@trailing-edge.com> > I was wondering if anyone had an idea about an 11/23+ I picked up recently. >It's a normal looking 11/23+, but the UART closest to the console connecters >is replaced by a 40 pin socket. The socket has a ribbon cable attached which >goes to a small board (2x3.5 inches) that contains a UART and a couple of >other chips (notebly a dallas ds2010). A DS2010 is a 1024*9 FIFO. > Looking at the socket, it's not a >rework, I believe the board came this way from DEC. The small board has a >part number 010-01135-00 rev b etched on it. I don't see that part number in my indices, but it certainly sounds like it may be a DEC part number. With the FIFO and the UART, it obviously has something to do with buffering either input or output through the serial port. Interesting find! If you look on the board handles, are there any suffixes on the M8189? (Something like "YA" or "YB"?) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From emu at ecubics.com Sat Apr 29 13:25:07 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: unknown qbus scsi controller References: <000429133852.202008b6@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <02db01bfb208$4679c090$5d01a8c0@p2350> Hi, Found yesterday a qbus card, which is probably an scsi controller. Short description: one 50 pin, one 10 pin header. ncr53c90 controller, 68008 cpu. format: qbus double. company printed on board: "copyright 1989 by transitional technology, inc. made in USA REV E" No other printing/labes/information. Anybody on this list knows more about this card ? manual ? cheers & thanks, emanuel From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Apr 29 14:08:04 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: unknown qbus scsi controller In-Reply-To: <02db01bfb208$4679c090$5d01a8c0@p2350> References: <000429133852.202008b6@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000429120508.00c4d820@208.226.86.10> Hi Emanuel, I don't know alot about this card, I've got one as well. The 10 pin header is the configuration port. TransTech's customer support wasn't very helpful :-(. Mine is a differential controller, I finally got some differential SCSI terminators so I can try it out with my 2GB Diff SCSI drive. On one of the 40 pin chips mine has the firmware version which was QTD 1.6. You can tell its differential if it has a bunch of 8 pin IC's around the SCSI connector. --Chuck At 12:25 PM 4/29/00 -0600, emanuel wrote: >Hi, > >Found yesterday a qbus card, which is probably an scsi controller. >No other printing/labes/information. >Anybody on this list knows more about this card ? >manual ? From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Apr 29 14:18:05 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: Ok, so how do I install layered products? Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000429120819.00c447e0@208.226.86.10> I know, I know. It must be written down somewhere, but the DOC is on a CD and I don't know how to access it! I have VMS 7.0 installed, and I installed DECWindows. I also told it to be a cluster node and that caused some problems initially. On boot it complained about INCLUDES. For the uninitiated the NO_SHARE option on the hobbiest VMS license means you need one license per CPU, and for that to work you have to type: LICENSE MODIFY/INCLUDE=TNYVAX VAX-VMS before it will work. (TNYVAX was my node name, yours will vary) So its installed, but I would really like to install TCP/IP so that I can open a DECWindow on my remote X server. I think it is on the VMS Layered products disk but when I try to mount it it complains I've gor the wrong label. Where to start? (I entered the label that the disk says it has on it (its printed on the CD as OPENVMSS070LP, but that is rejected as being incorrect) --Chuck From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Apr 29 14:50:16 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:10 2005 Subject: Ok, so how do I install layered products? Message-ID: <000429155016.202008df@trailing-edge.com> >Where to start? (I entered the label that the disk says it has on it (its >printed on the CD as OPENVMSS070LP, but that is rejected as being incorrect) If you think the label printed on the CD is wrong, you can do a MOUNT/OVERRIDE=IDENTIFICATION to figure out what the real disk label is. If you still get an error, show us exactly what command you tried and exactly the error message you got back. Unlike many modern software products, the error messages from VMS *are* actually helpful to figure out what's going wrong! Tim. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Apr 29 17:11:25 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: OT: DDS Tapes Message-ID: Question, can a DDS1 tape be used in a DDS2 drive to test the drive, or am I going to have to go out and spend the $$$'s on a tape to test the drive? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Apr 29 17:18:15 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: Ok, so how do I install layered products? In-Reply-To: <000429155016.202008df@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000429150940.02651650@208.226.86.10> At 03:50 PM 4/29/00 -0400, Tim wrote: > >Where to start? (I entered the label that the disk says it has on it (its > >printed on the CD as OPENVMSS070LP, but that is rejected as being incorrect) > >If you think the label printed on the CD is wrong, you can do a >MOUNT/OVERRIDE=IDENTIFICATION to figure out what the real disk label is. $ mount/identification=override dka400: %DCL-W-IVQUAL, unrecognized qualifier - check validity, spelling, and placement \IDENTIFICATION\ $ mount/override=identification dka400: %MOUNT-I-WRITELOCK, volume is write locked %MOUNT-I-MOUNTED, OPENVMS070LP mounted on _TNYVAX$DKA400: I apparently had one too many S's in there. That mounted it, but the "layered" products disk only has Softwindows, X25, and something else on it. >Unlike many modern software >products, the error messages from VMS *are* actually helpful to figure >out what's going wrong! This is true. Thanks for the help Tim. --Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Apr 29 17:43:31 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: Hmmm, VMS again Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000429154002.0276d620@208.226.86.10> How was VMS distributed? I've got a blue box that says "OpenVMS" and contained a "wallet" of CD-ROMS with VMS for Alpha and VMS for VAX. There is one VAX-VMS Binraries CD and one that is labelled "Layered Products 1 of 1" and the VMS FreeWare 2.0 CD. I'm looking for the C, Fortran, and PASCAL compilers. But they don't appear to be on either of these disks. Was there another CD with even more layered products on it? --Chuck From mrdos at swbell.net Fri Apr 28 18:45:59 2000 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: Z-80 Pinouts Message-ID: <001301bfb16c$03807dc0$49723ed8@compaq> Does any body happen to know the pin specifications for a Z-80 microprocessor? Thanks, Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000428/7a0abd11/attachment.html From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Apr 29 18:53:59 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: Hmmm, VMS again In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000429154002.0276d620@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: >How was VMS distributed? I've got a blue box that says "OpenVMS" and >contained a "wallet" of CD-ROMS with VMS for Alpha and VMS for VAX. There >is one VAX-VMS Binraries CD and one that is labelled "Layered Products 1 of >1" and the VMS FreeWare 2.0 CD. I'm looking for the C, Fortran, and PASCAL >compilers. But they don't appear to be on either of these disks. Was there >another CD with even more layered products on it? > >--Chuck You've got a OpenVMS V7.0 distribution kit from the sounds of things, but you don't have the Software Product Library, which is a whole pile of CD's. For what you want you're best bet is to just buy the Hobbyist V2 CD for VAX. Alternativelly, if you're lucky you can dig up a SPL, good luck on that though, unless you want to shell out something like $1600 for a new one. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Apr 29 19:28:34 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: FS/FT: Novell Developer CD-ROMs Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000429171944.00c2f890@208.226.86.10> I've got a _pile_ of Novell Network developer CD-ROMs. Some claim to be time limited, some are docs, all are from the Novell Developer program and came on a load of stuff that was otherwise unrelated. This is what they say: Novell Directory Service - Developer Jumpstart CD Novell LAN DDK/SDK Novell Software Connection Library 10 " " 11 etc, etc for about 40+ CD ROMs (I suspect some duplicates.) It looks like most of the developer connection series and some IHV beta stuff. Definitely should be archived rather than go to the dumpster or be made into coasters. I'd prefer to trade a couple of Q-bus boards or a PCI SCSI controller (preferably one of the Adaptec ones), if there is any interest at all let me know before next friday. --Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Apr 29 19:36:01 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: Misc PC software Available Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000429172839.00c2f790@208.226.86.10> This is the other half, several packages with Disk or CD and docs, are available for $5/each post paid in the USA. Sytos Plus File Backup Manager for DOS (by Sytron) 386/MAX Version 6 by Qualitas (an EMM386 type clone?) Shrink wrapped "Microsoft Online" box. (would make a nice addition to your collectible AOL disk :-) --Chuck From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Apr 29 19:32:16 2000 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: Z-80 Pinouts In-Reply-To: <001301bfb16c$03807dc0$49723ed8@compaq> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000429173149.00af09d0@pacbell.net> At 06:45 PM 4/28/00 -0500, you wrote: >Does any body happen to know the pin specifications for a Z-80 microprocessor? > >Thanks, >Owen Here's the place to be for all things Z-80: http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Peaks/3938/z80_home.htm Ok, not all things, but it will have what you need. ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From lkinzer at sciti.com Sat Apr 29 20:31:05 2000 From: lkinzer at sciti.com (Lowell Kinzer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: OT: DDS Tapes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000429172539.00afe710@popmail.ltsp.com> The Conner DDS-2, Seagate DDS-3, Sony DDS-4 and WangDAT DDS-2 drives I have used have been backwards compatible with DDS (there really isn't a DDS-1, its just DDS. I guess they weren't too forward thinking when they initially named it.) tapes. Best regards, Lowell At 02:11 PM 4/29/00, Zane H. Healy wrote: >Question, can a DDS1 tape be used in a DDS2 drive to test the drive, or am >I going to have to go out and spend the $$$'s on a tape to test the drive? > > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From hallsf at alfredtech.edu Sat Apr 29 20:44:16 2000 From: hallsf at alfredtech.edu (Scott F. Hall) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: Z-80 Pinouts References: <001301bfb16c$03807dc0$49723ed8@compaq> Message-ID: <390B8FF0.96BF10F2@alfredtech.edu> Owen: I think it's likely that dino@coprolite.com can tell you everything you want to know about the Z-80. I'd write to him and also take a look at his pages where he shows his homebrew work http://www.coprolite.com/ Scott Hall, Alfred, NY Owen Robertson wrote: > > Does any body happen to know the pin specifications for a Z-80 > microprocessor? > > Thanks, > Owen From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Apr 29 19:52:12 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: OT: DDS Tapes In-Reply-To: (healyzh@aracnet.com) References: Message-ID: <20000430005212.5856.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Question, can a DDS1 tape be used in a DDS2 drive to test the drive, or am > I going to have to go out and spend the $$$'s on a tape to test the drive? AFAIK, all DDS2 (and DDS3, and DDS4) drives are capable of reading DDS1 tapes. They should be capable of writing also, but some drives, like the HPs, may default to write-protecting early DDS1 tapes that don't have the MRS stripes. HP drives have a jumper setting to override that. Note that there's nothing wrong with pre-MRS DDS1 tapes; the drive just has no way to distinguish them from cheap audio tapes, so it want to discourage you from using them. I know it's not what you were asking, but I've found it somewhat ironic that many computer "professionals" I've met wanted to save money by backing up their data onto audio grade tape. But many audiophiles will only use DDS1 certified data grade tape for their music, because they want to avoid dropouts. Really sheds some light on what things people consider important. Eric From Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu Sat Apr 29 19:52:41 2000 From: Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu (Marion Bates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: FS: Mac parts! Message-ID: <30437497@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 342 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000429/9ad9ff9c/attachment.bin From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Apr 29 19:59:22 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: Hmmm, VMS again Message-ID: <000429205922.202008f8@trailing-edge.com> >How was VMS distributed? I've got a blue box that says "OpenVMS" and >contained a "wallet" of CD-ROMS with VMS for Alpha and VMS for VAX. There >is one VAX-VMS Binraries CD and one that is labelled "Layered Products 1 of >1" and the VMS FreeWare 2.0 CD. I'm looking for the C, Fortran, and PASCAL >compilers. But they don't appear to be on either of these disks. Was there >another CD with even more layered products on it? A complete condist (consolidated distribution) for VMS 7.0 is, I believe, 12 disks. If you get the hobbyist CD's through the OpenVMS hobbyist program ( http://www.montagar.com/ ) the "layered product" CD that comes with it is a "best of" from all the condist CD's, carrying what someone thought a hobbyist would be most likely to want. Many of the compilers are there. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sat Apr 29 20:06:29 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: FS/FT: Dectape TU56 parts Message-ID: <200004300106.UAA29229@caesar.cs.umn.edu> I have some DecTape TU56 front panel controls, so if someone has a TU56 with a bad switch or something, let me know and maybe we can make a trade. Also, I might be able to get a set of motors, or even possibly a read/write head, if that is needed. It would take me a couple hours to go back with some tools and extract these parts, so unless someone wants to trade me something for it, i probably wont bother. Someone else has already extracted one of the motors (there are normally 4 total, one behind each of the wheels on the front on the unit). -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu From jruschme at mac.com Sat Apr 29 21:05:28 2000 From: jruschme at mac.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: What to use as a substitute for the NCR5380?? In-Reply-To: <200004300033.TAA71508@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: It seems like I recall that either AMD or NatSemi still had a compatible part in production. -- John Ruschmeyer jruschme@mac.com > Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 21:33:50 -0600 > From: "Richard Erlacher" > Subject: What to use as a substitute for the NCR5380?? > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > - ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01BFB159.71DEDD60 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Do any of you guys know of a code-compatible substitute for the NCR 5380 = > that's available currently? > > Dick From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Apr 29 21:05:57 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: Tandy 102 Message-ID: Well, I finally got something I've wanted ever since I saw the first one in a Radio Shack. The only problem is I get the feeling it doesn't work. Using the powerbrick from my Tandy WP-2 I was able to turn it on, however, unless I adjust the contrast up the screen is blank, well, even when adjusted up, it's blank. Any ideas? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dogas at leading.net Sat Apr 29 22:23:04 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: RCA Dev System IV another update... Message-ID: <000601bfb253$686a7460$ca646464@dogclient01> The love affair continues. I ran across a great 1802 instruction summary in the RCA workshop that presents the CPU instructions in a matrix format respecting the instruction code's N code sub meaning and have added a scan to my site at: http://users.leading.net/~dogas/classiccmp/cosmac/cosmac.htm ;) - Mike: dogas@leading.net From vaxman at uswest.net Sat Apr 29 22:45:42 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: OT: DDS Tapes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A DDS1 tape should work in a DDS2 drive, but DDS3 and forward wont! I purchased a bunch of 120m tapes for my DDS2 drive, and used them for quite a while before discovering I was storing LESS information on them than the 90m DDS2 tapes... Grrr... If the drive works, stick to the 60m and 90m tapes :) clint On Sat, 29 Apr 2000, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Question, can a DDS1 tape be used in a DDS2 drive to test the drive, or am > I going to have to go out and spend the $$$'s on a tape to test the drive? > > Zane > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Apr 29 23:13:27 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: What to use as a substitute for the NCR5380?? References: Message-ID: <003201bfb25a$701e54e0$0400c0a8@winbook> Yes, they did. However, that was then and this is now. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: John Ruschmeyer To: Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 8:05 PM Subject: Re: What to use as a substitute for the NCR5380?? > It seems like I recall that either AMD or NatSemi still had a compatible > part in production. > > -- > John Ruschmeyer > jruschme@mac.com > > > > Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 21:33:50 -0600 > > From: "Richard Erlacher" > > Subject: What to use as a substitute for the NCR5380?? > > > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > > > - ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01BFB159.71DEDD60 > > Content-Type: text/plain; > > charset="iso-8859-1" > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > Do any of you guys know of a code-compatible substitute for the NCR 5380 = > > that's available currently? > > > > Dick > From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Apr 29 20:12:14 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: Z-80 Pinouts Message-ID: <002601bfb255$917b89a0$6f64c0d0@ajp166> >At 06:45 PM 4/28/00 -0500, you wrote: >>Does any body happen to know the pin specifications for a Z-80 microprocessor? >> >>Thanks, >>Owen > >Here's the place to be for all things Z-80: > > http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Peaks/3938/z80_home.htm Check the sites mentioned for details. If you need further details we are here to provide additional detail. Allison From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Apr 30 01:44:38 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: OT: DDS Tapes In-Reply-To: (vaxman@uswest.net) References: Message-ID: <20000430064438.7176.qmail@brouhaha.com> > A DDS1 tape should work in a DDS2 drive, but DDS3 and forward wont! > I purchased a bunch of 120m tapes for my DDS2 drive, and used them > for quite a while before discovering I was storing LESS information > on them than the 90m DDS2 tapes... Grrr... > > If the drive works, stick to the 60m and 90m tapes :) If you have a DDS2 drive, 120m tapes are the right ones to use. If your DDS2 drive isn't working correctly with them, it is broken. Perhaps you meant that 125m tapes (DDS3) don't work right in a DDS2 drive, which is quite true. Note that both 120m DDS2 tapes and 125m DDS3 tapes can actually be the same length: Marketing ECMA Marketing Specified Native Capacity Generation Standard "Length" Length Capacity (2:1 compression) -------------- -------- ---------- ------ -------- ----------------- DDS and DDS/DC 139 60m 3-60.5m 1.3G 2.6G 150,170 90m 3-92m 2G 4G DDS2 198 120m 10-125m 4G 8G DDS3 236 125m 10-125m 12G 24G DDS4 288 150m 10-155m 20G 40G Shorter tape lengths have been made for OEMs, but typically only tapes with lengths close to the specified upper limits have been available for retail sale. If you have a DDS(m) drive, do NOT use DDS(n) tapes for n>m. The oxide formulations are different, which will prevent data from being reliably stored. Also the tapes are thinner, and the earlier transports do not use tensioning aprorpiate for the later tapes. Newer drives are designed with the requirements for older generation tape in mind, so the older tapes can be used (at their normal storage density). From townhome at compuserve.com Sun Apr 30 03:37:51 2000 From: townhome at compuserve.com (Donald Town Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #147 Message-ID: <200004300438_MC2-A313-2C80@compuserve.com> This mailing list has no info on how to get removed. How do I do so? Thanks. From Historical at aol.com Sun Apr 30 09:54:09 2000 From: Historical at aol.com (Historical@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: eBay Auction Links Message-ID: <13.499ec3b.263da311@aol.com> Hello everyone, I know that there are some bad attitudes regarding eBay, but I would like to ask this list's help. I have recently updated my links to specific keywords for eBay auctions and I would ask for anyone who is willing to help me check them and improve them. Also, I currently do not have links for collectible software and I would ask for suggestions. DOS and Windows versions are obvious. I also have just one link each to Haggle and Excite's auctions, I would ask for any auction suggestions too. I hope to make my site a central "jumping off" point for these as well as for computer history related books and recent news and events. Any help is appreciated. Best, http://www.classiccomputing.com/auctions.html David Greelish Publisher Classic Computing Press From cfandt at netsync.net Sun Apr 30 12:25:46 2000 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: Cap. leakage current Was:Re: PDP-5 Rescued! In-Reply-To: <200004252010.NAA05966@civic.hal.com> References: <4.3.1.2.20000424201435.025574e0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <4.1.20000430125030.03a097a0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 01:10 PM 4/25/00 -0700, Dwight Elvey said something like: >Chuck McManis wrote: >> This didn't seem to make it out the first time, so here goes a second. >> >> I managed to rescue the PDP-5 that I've "owned" for some time now, but it >> was stuck in a far away city. Anyhoo, I've put up the obligatory pictures >> at for anyone who cares >> to take a peek at it. This uses "DEC System Modules" the pre-cursor to the >> DEC Flip Chip technology. It hasn't been powered on in 15 years so I'll be >> a bit cautious getting the caps warmed up in the PSU. -15V transistor >> logic, wild stuff! >> >> --Chuck > >Hi Chuck > If I was worried about the capacitors, I'd disconnect them and >use a bench supply with a nice current limiting resistor. I >would think a step rate of 5% of working voltage every 1/2 >hour would be safe. Put a volt meter across the resistor. Use 15k to 30k at minimum 5 watts. >Any significant large voltage drop would indicate leakage. Using Ohm's Law, figure the current throught the resisitor. A rule of thumb I found shows for capacitance value 6000 MFD and higher at 25 working volts figure a limit of 8 milliamperes leakage current (0.008 amps) before planning on replacing them. This is even after reforming them using your step-increase plan depicted above. >These large caps are known to have some leakage. How much >is OK, I don't know. That is something you'll have to make >a judgment call on. I would think that for large caps like >I see in the pictures, 1/32 watt is on the large size for >DC power. > Don't forget the smaller electrolytics in the circuits >of the supply. Do a value check on these. I usually lift one >lead and use an ohm meter. Comparable values should take the >same time to charge. You might want to connect these to Rough test but sort of okay to get a ballpark idea of condition. >a setup like used on the large ones. If they respond >as having low capacitance on the ohm meter, you'll most likely >have to replace them, forming won't help. Uh, "as having low capacitance on the ohm meter" ?? Only thing you'll get a real hint of is whether the cap is rather leaky or not. No close relation to capacitance value measurement except that for great step increases in capacitance (say, from 1000 to 10000 MFD for example) you'll get a very rough idea of value just from time to charge. Then only if the cap is very leaky would you see a difference between caps of same capacitance value. And even this idea is not reliable because the variation in capacitance value for same-marked caps can be up to +100% for the cheap grade and maybe +20% or more for the "computer grade" caps. I've got a writeup I quickly tossed together which I posted to a couple of members of the Boatanchors List (boatanchor == affectionate term used for any radio which is used for commercial or amateur radio reception or transmission which is big, heavy and uses vacuum tubes (valves)). This writeup discusses capacitor leakage testing and electrolytic reforming on our beloved boatanchors. Similar application to the electrolytics and a few other capacitors used on the old computers we all love on this list. I can send a copy to others here who may be interested. Just email me with the request in the Subject line. > While you are fiddling with the supply, you might also add >some new heat sink grease under power transistors. The silicon >oil in this grease does eventually go away. It is easiest >if the transistors are socketed. Indeed, but the silicone grease is only the vehicle for the tin oxide (or zinc oxide) filler which does most of the heat transfer. If left undisturbed there should still be virtually all the orginal thermal transfer capability as when the unit was built. But, I've not studied the effect of the loss of the silicone grease too much. Tony, have you seen much variance here in your experience? > I don't recommend the slow power on for the entire unit. >Many circuits will draw higher current until full up to >voltage. If you want to do a slow power up and the supply >is a linear, disconnect the load and just bring up the supply. >If it is a switcher, you may damage it with a brown out. >Most linears can handle it. > Watch for any signs of smoke or popping sounds. These are >almost always bad news. At one of the meetings at Stan's, >one of the fellows, I don't remember who, had three tantalums >blow. These were all power line input filters on boards. Power line input filters? Tantalums?? On the AC mains??! No wonder they let loose as any reverse voltage above a low tolerance level on any tantalum will short them and they go boom! Not a pretty picture sometimes. In this case I would say that they were not tantalums but something else such as a Mylar film dielectric cap or some such. Since they blew up I would guess they had gotten nailed with lightning or a significant power line surge which punctured the dielectric and shorted them. Later, when the unsuspecting fellow at Stan's applied power, perhaps for the first time after the damaging incident, he got the surprise. >After we removed them, the unit worked fine. If we'd left >the power on, these would have burned the boards. >Dwight Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From cfandt at netsync.net Sun Apr 30 12:33:51 2000 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: The DEC M9060 board In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000425144748.00ac3140@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20000430132735.00b82670@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 02:55 PM 4/25/00 -0700, Chuck McManis said something like: >The visual field guide lists it as ??? many other field guides don't list >it at all. It was the answer to question I didn't know to ask. Its a >friggin' dummy load! > >If you happen to come across a DEC "skunk box" also know as the BA213 >chassis which was home to MicroVAX 3300 - 3900's and some DEC System >5500's, you'll notice it has two power supplies (one on the left and one on >the right). I was restoring a MicroVAX 3400 and thought it had a "bad" >power supply. As it turned out, without sufficient load these power supplys >will not "light up." So to fix that on the 3400 I plugged a Fujitsu SCSI >drive (known power hog :-) on to the disk connector and voila, the thing >worked. > >So I've been looking at a couple of 3400's that were used as a cluster and >both of them had M9060 boards installed in the last slot. These boards >provide sufficent load on the supplies to get them to both turn on. _Very_ >handy gizmos. > >Moral of the story, if you think you have a "bad" BA213 chassis, try >loading up the power supply a bit, and if that works, find one of these >boards and plug it into the last slot! > >Another of lifes little mysteries solved. A rule of thumb I found back in the 80's (around the vintage of the BA213) was to load a switcher with _at least_ 5% of its rated load current in order for it to start and remain stable. Don't know about the -213 PSU but 5% is a starting point I would think. What are the values of the load resistors on the M9060 and can you determine which supply lines they are hung off? If the rated current for each PS line is known, one could cipher the approximate load percentage the M9060 puts on the PSU. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 30 12:47:35 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: Z-80 Pinouts In-Reply-To: <001301bfb16c$03807dc0$49723ed8@compaq> from "Owen Robertson" at Apr 28, 0 06:45:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 462 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000430/bbac9bd9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 30 13:19:01 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: microprocessor reference cards Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 338 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000430/4e714a67/attachment.ksh From Innfogra at aol.com Sun Apr 30 14:22:28 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: Ontopic Drops was OT: The Drop Squad Message-ID: When we had to move from my original warehouse in Portland we brought in a 30 Yard dumpster. Now there was stuff on the seventh and the third floors. It was just too much of a temptation. On a quiet Sunday a television jumped out a window on the 7th floor, dead center into the dumpster. A huge crash echoed between the tall buildings of the street. We discovered that plastic likes to shatter into lots of pieces when dropped from great heights. Aiming from the seventh floor proved difficult, however. The next item, an old stereo split the far edge of the steel wall of the dumpster. While the motor and heavy parts ended in the dumpster much of the plastic littered the street. We went down and removed the plastic before we could get into trouble. We relocated to the third floor which had a lot of Wang 22XX terminals. Now this was much easier. The dumpster was not the small target that it seemed from the seventh floor. The heavy weight of the Wangs made for a more predictable trajectory, not to mention a very satisfactory racket when they landed in the dumpster. They possessed considerably less kinetic energy and generally stayed in one piece with pops when the tube blew. Crash, pop, crash, pop, crash, pop... After all, these terminals were scheduled to be in the dumpster anyway, what better way to do it, and let gravity help. In the next warehouse we got in two pallets of copper wire on steel spools. It proved to be very difficult to destroy the spool yet keep the wire in a coil. Finally we took all the wire to the roof of our 6 story warehouse. Since we didn't want the wire to lose form we just pushed the spools off with little horizontal acceleration. We were right. When the spool hit the pavement of the parking lot. the ends jumped off the spool. The wire might expand in an elongated coil but was easy to gather together. The best solution was to hold the spool out and just drop it. The goal was to get the spool to land flat on one side. The opposite side would pop off and the coil would bounce up and down, staying tight. This was lots of fun on another Sunday in Portland. I have some video. I believe in using gravity as a tool. However most of these fun ways are illegal now in Portland. We did most of this 10 years ago. For those that are worried no collectable computers were sacrificed this way except the Wangs. Thanks for the URL on the Drop Squad. I enjoyed it. Paxton From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 30 14:54:32 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: microprocessor reference cards References: Message-ID: <000d01bfb2dd$e7fb8400$0400c0a8@winbook> I was surprised to find that they list the 6501 under Rockwell parts. I don't recall that anyone other than MOS Technology ever made the 6501. I seem to recall that the 6501 had a different instruction set than the later 6502. I also remember that the Rockwell instruciton set was different for their NMOS parts than the MOS-Technology parts, though it was their CMOS parts that had the REALLY expanded instruction set. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 12:19 PM Subject: microprocessor reference cards > Earlier somebody was asking for a Z80 pinout. > > Here's a website that has programming 'cards' for a lot of common (and > not so common) microprocessors -- the cards generally contain a pinout > and an instruction set listing. And, they're simple plain text files :-) > > The url is : > > http://gruffle.comlab.ox.ac.uk/archive/cards.html > > -tony > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Apr 30 15:03:41 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: microprocessor reference cards References: <000d01bfb2dd$e7fb8400$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <001301bfb2df$2f54c900$0400c0a8@winbook> This is, BTW, a VERY interesting site, worthy of a visit by anyone and everyone interested in microelectronic processors. They have a wide range of links suggesting the very non-American sort of thinking that has brought so many interesting innovations from Britain. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Erlacher To: Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 1:54 PM Subject: Re: microprocessor reference cards > I was surprised to find that they list the 6501 under Rockwell parts. I > don't recall that anyone other than MOS Technology ever made the 6501. I > seem to recall that the 6501 had a different instruction set than the later > 6502. I also remember that the Rockwell instruciton set was different for > their NMOS parts than the MOS-Technology parts, though it was their CMOS > parts that had the REALLY expanded instruction set. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tony Duell > To: > Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2000 12:19 PM > Subject: microprocessor reference cards > > > > Earlier somebody was asking for a Z80 pinout. > > > > Here's a website that has programming 'cards' for a lot of common (and > > not so common) microprocessors -- the cards generally contain a pinout > > and an instruction set listing. And, they're simple plain text files :-) > > > > The url is : > > > > http://gruffle.comlab.ox.ac.uk/archive/cards.html > > > > -tony > > > From rivie at teraglobal.com Sun Apr 30 15:07:41 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: Tandy 102 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Well, I finally got something I've wanted ever since I saw the first one in >a Radio Shack. The only problem is I get the feeling it doesn't work. >Using the powerbrick from my Tandy WP-2 I was able to turn it on, however, >unless I adjust the contrast up the screen is blank, well, even when >adjusted up, it's blank. Any ideas? Unfortunately, I don't. But tell me about the WP-2. I'm aware of a local pawnshop that has one for $20 and I've been trying to decide whether to pick it up. I do have the technical manuals for the 102 somewhere (it would take me a while to find), which include schematics. I also have development tools for making your own EPROMs (a C compiler with a library for the 102, bundled with DRI's RMAC and LINK-80. I'm not certain I have all of the manuals; I may have sent some of the DRI manuals to Tim Olmstead for scanning for the Unofficial CP/M Web Site). -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Apr 30 15:11:07 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: Ontopic Drops was OT: The Drop Squad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000430131107.00943860@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 15:22 30-04-2000 EDT, you wrote: >When we had to move from my original warehouse in Portland we brought in a 'Tis sad, but true, that no matter how hard each of us might try, one cannot save everything. Admittedly, not everything -should- be saved. ;-) If one is in a position where stuff simply -must- be disposed of, then one may as well have some fun with it. >Thanks for the URL on the Drop Squad. I enjoyed it. You're most welcome. Myself and my buddies have pulled our share of drops as well. The most fun to date has been a couple of superballs down very tall elevator shafts. While not really on-topic for the list, I will say that the first one dropped (from the 22nd floor, as I recall) made no sound at all. We're assuming it fell cleanly to the bottom (we were dropping them through the gap between the car, which we were in at the time, and the floor we were on). The second one was much more satisfying. No more than a second after the drop, it ricocheted off a spring or something that made a deep, resonant 'BONNNNGGGG!!' It continued to ricochet all the way down the shaft, providing us with many amusing noises along the way. Keep the peace(es). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Apr 30 15:19:22 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: Tandy 102 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Unfortunately, I don't. But tell me about the WP-2. I'm aware of a >local pawnshop >that has one for $20 and I've been trying to decide whether to pick it up. Pretty much the same formfactor, but the screen isn't as high. Basically all it's good for is a Word Processor, and a *very* simplistic terminal (remember the thing is only a few lines). I bought one on closeout somewhere around '92, but it was such a pain to get info on and off I never really used it. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Apr 30 16:02:28 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: Ontopic Drops was OT: The Drop Squad Message-ID: <000430170228.202008d9@trailing-edge.com> >I believe in using gravity as a tool. There's an interesting article in the Annals of Irreproducible Research where (using a suspect extrapolation!) they calculated how many times you'd have to drop a frozen turkey from an 10-story building to get it fully cooked. IIRC the title was "Cooking with Potential Energy". The text (though not the graphs) seems to be online at http://www.bmsc.udel.edu/niiler/HESC276/PotentialEnergy.txt Tim. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 30 13:34:08 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: Cap. leakage current Was:Re: PDP-5 Rescued! In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000430125030.03a097a0@206.231.8.2> from "Christian Fandt" at Apr 30, 0 01:25:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4695 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000430/e07caaab/attachment.ksh From mrbill at mrbill.net Sun Apr 30 16:35:01 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: Thinkpad 720 AC adapter Message-ID: <20000430163501.V12705@mrbill.net> Anybody know where I can find an AC adapter for a Thinkpad 720, or alternately, anyone who has older 486 Thinkpad(s) for sale *cheap* ? Thanks. Bill -- +--------------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | +--------------------+-------------------+ | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | +--------------------+-------------------+ From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sun Apr 30 16:50:24 2000 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: Thinkpad 720 AC adapter References: <20000430163501.V12705@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <390CAAA0.814F7B40@bigfoot.com> I may have one at work, I'll check in the morning. The machie it's with doesn't start up so I'll have to do voltage checks on it to insure that it's the machine and not the charger/adapter. Bill Bradford wrote: > Anybody know where I can find an AC adapter for a Thinkpad 720, > or alternately, anyone who has older 486 Thinkpad(s) for sale *cheap* ? > > Thanks. > > Bill > > -- > +--------------------+-------------------+ > | Bill Bradford | Austin, Texas | > +--------------------+-------------------+ > | mrbill@sunhelp.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | > +--------------------+-------------------+ From jpero at cgocable.net Sun Apr 30 13:49:38 2000 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: Cap. leakage current Was:Re: PDP-5 Rescued! In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.20000430125030.03a097a0@206.231.8.2> from "Christian Fandt" at Apr 30, 0 01:25:46 pm Message-ID: <200004302244.e3UMinr19616@admin.cgocable.net> > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: Cap. leakage current Was:Re: PDP-5 Rescued! > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 19:34:08 +0100 (BST) > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Hi all, > Another thing that's hard to detect with simple instruments, but rather > important, is the effective series resistance I mentioned above. When an > electrolytic dries up, the ESR goes high, but often the capacitance, as > measured by a capacitance meter, doesn't change that much. A capacitor > with high ESR is a very poor filter, though, so your PSU ripple > increases. And some switch-mode PSUs do _very_ strange things when they > contain high-ESR capacitors, including puting 10V spikes on the output > rails (don't ask how I found that out...) Correct, this is what I had to rebuild a peecee PSU switcher with new caps. Now good as new. > An ESR meter, or some other way to measure it, is a very useful > instrument. There are various designs out there -- I've heard good things > about an Australian design (I beleive it's called the 'Dick Smith > Electronics ESR meter), but I've never actually used one. Very good meter, but it also can measure .01 to 99 ohms resistors. Which is very useful especially when one wants to check low current contacts is low resistance enough and works reliably. Usually greater than 6ohms in contacts makes the device behave strangely. Even 10 ohms on nicked 10cm long trace is enough to cripple the peecee motherboard, had to splice it to decrease this resistance. And this is great device for checking fusiable resistors in circuit usually for opens or partial opens because it's voltage output is lower than junction therhold. I just fixed a Apple ][e PSU, 220uF 10V ESR in PWM circuit went skyhigh and I didn't pull any caps to check thanks to the ESR meter and job took 30 minutes start to end. That was last week, that faulty cap looks same as other caps in same PSU visually. Dick Smith Electronics sells this ESR meter and is designed by Bob Parker. My other kit-built DMM can't zero'ed out when I need to mesaure very low resistances <3 Ohms, the ESR meter comes out for this. > -tony Wizard From jpero at cgocable.net Sun Apr 30 13:49:38 2000 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: Thinkpad 720 AC adapter In-Reply-To: <390CAAA0.814F7B40@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: <200004302245.e3UMjor20238@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 16:50:24 -0500 > From: Russ Blakeman > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Thinkpad 720 AC adapter > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > I may have one at work, I'll check in the morning. The machie it's with > doesn't start up so I'll have to do voltage checks on it to insure that > it's the machine and not the charger/adapter. Russ, better do open up that brick first and check solder joints for breaks and resolder. I caught this too on 700C, same adapter for both series and few other TPs used this brick also. Also, sometimes solder joints on SMDs chips break loose. Check this on video board ceramic square IC leads to pads. On mine it was loose and check that 2 sticks of aluminum is still stuck to the two VRAM ICs. Mine were both broken loose. FYI: This parts are 80% interchangeable between 700 and 720 series. Word of warning to all solo 2300 owners: Check that one screw securing the bottom heatsink and motherboard is SECURE and better yet locked in place with loctite under the CPU daughterboard! This job requires removing the aluminum box (4 screws) and pulling the cpu module after removing one screw in middle in front of heatsink w/ fan. Caught this on two solo 2300 notebooks; one resulted in dead cpu module and revived other one thanks to this one loose screw touching underside of the cpu module. Ouch! Hint, quiet mode is true power mode will be higher performance, when cpu gets hot enough fan spins not other way around. Oops plus one typo error mistake on bios programmer. Performance mode results in overheating and slower performance because the fan is "disabled". GW2K will not sell any parts unless you have a major account with them or send in GW2K notebooks for repairs. Ebay or like or third party parts sellers was only way we could fix these GW2K notebooks. Accessing to innards is easy on this solo 2300, remove 4 black screws on back to get hinge cover off after opening up display 180 deg, 4 more to get keyboard gently flipped over or totally removed after pulling the retainer latch up. Don't forget to pull battery pack and power plug first. ;-) Wizard From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Apr 30 21:21:51 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: Classic Databooks and Manuals available Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000430192151.009af890@agora.rdrop.com> Trying to clear some space in the 'Garage' yet again, and so this time are offering some assorted classic (and some not so classic) Component Databooks and assorted manuals. The basic deal: $5.00 each (includes postage in the U.S. - elsewhere, ask) with the exception of a couple of application notes which are $1.00 (they are noted as such in the descriptions). Any not spoken for by next weekend will either make a pass at eBay or the recycling bin. So hesitation is not recommended... B^} There are no 'quantities' either in pricing or availability. There is only one of each item listed. First come, first served... Payment options: check, (must clear before shipment) or postal money order, PayPal (if you are in a hurry) So off we go: Available Documentation Listing -------------------------------- Ashton Tate Framework II Manual Set Dallas Seimconductor 1987-1988 Product Databook - Commemorative Edition Diodes Inc. Discrete Semiconductor Catalog 1995 Epson FX-286 User's Manual Epson FX Printer Operation Manual General Instruments Microelectronics Data Catalog - 1982 Harris Linear and Telecom ICs - 1991 Harris RCA High-Speed CMOS Logic ICs - 1989 Harris Microprocessor Products for Commercial and Military Digital Applications - 1992 Hearst 1992 IC Master - Volume 1 Hearst 1992 IC Master - Volume 2 Hearst 1992 IC Master - Volume 3 Hewlett Packard Using the HP Scanjet IIc Scanner with Microsoft Windows Hitachi IC Memory Databook - 1988 Hitachi LCD Controller/Driver LSI Databook - 1989 Hitachi DRAM Databook - 1991 Hitachi 8/16 Peripheral LSI Databook - 1987 Intel MCS-80/85 Family Users Manual Oct. 1979 Intel 8086 Family Users Manual Oct. 1979 Intel Microprocessors Volume III - 1994 Intel Intel486 Microprocessor Family - 1994 Intel Pentium Family User's Manual Volume 1: Databook - 1994 Intel Pentium Family User's Manual Volume 2: 82496/82497 Cache Controller and 82491/82492 Cache SRAM Data Book - 1994 Intel Pentium Family User's Manual Volume 3: Architecture and Programming - 1994 Intel 32-Bit Embedded Controller Handbook - 1989 Intel 8-Bit Embedded Controllers - 1990 Intel Embedded Applications - 1990 Intel Component Data Catalog - 1980 Intel Component Data Catalog - 1982 Intel Component Data Catalog - 1981 Intel App Note: Example Memory Subsystem for the Pentium Processor - 1993 Intel App Note: Pentium Processor Clock Design - 1993 Intel App Note: Designing with the Pentium Processor, 82496 Cache Processor and 82491 Cache SRAM CPU-Cache Chip Set - 1993 Intel PROM Programming Personality Modules ($1) Intel 27C64/87C64 64k CHMOS UV Erasable PROM ($1) Intel Pentium Processor 90/100MHz (preliminary) Intersil Component Data Catalog - 1987 Lotus 123 Release 2.01 Manual Lotus HAL User's Manual Maxim Short Form Product Guide - 1993 Maxim 1986 Analog Swuitches and Multiplexers Maxim 1986 Power Supply Circuits Maxim Product Selector Guide and Price List Maxim 1993 Applications and Product Highlights Maxim 1987 Data Converters and Voltage References Maxim 1993 New Releases Databook Volume II Microsoft Word 3.1 Manual MicroPro Wordstar version 3.3 Manual Mitsubishi Single-Chip 8-Bit Microcomputers - 1989 Mostek 3870/F8 Microcomputer Databook - 1981 Motorola Memory Data Q1/88 Motorola Small Signal Transistors, FETs, and Diodes Device Data Q4/93 Motorola Telecommunications Device Data Q3/89 Motorola CMOS Data 1978 Motorola Linear and Interface Integrated Circuits Q2/88 Motorola High-Speed CMOS Logic Data Q2/88 Motorola CMOS Application-Specific Standard ICs Q4/90 Motorola CMOS Logic Data Q2/88 National Semiconductor Semiconductor Master Selection Guide 1988 National Semiconductor Linear Databook 1 - 1988 National Semiconductor Linear Databook 2 - 1988 National Semiconductor Linear Databook 3 - 1988 National Semiconductor Microcontrollers Databook - 1988 National Semiconductor 48-Series Microprocessors Handbook - 1980 National Semiconductor Linear Applications Handbook - 1986 National Semiconductor CMOS Logic Handbook - 1988 National Semiconductor Memory Databook - 1988 National Semiconductor ALS/AS Logic Databook - 1987 National Semiconductor LS/S/TTL Logic Databook - 1987 NEC Microcomputer Products Databook - 1987 NEC Memory Products Databook Volume 1 - 1993 NEC Memory Products Databook Volume 2 - 1993 NEC Microcomputer Division - 1982 Catalog NEC Memory Products Databook - 1989 NEC Microcomputer Products Volume 1 - 1987 Paradigm 1995 Databook Phillips Video, Audio, and Associated Systems Bipolar, MOS - 1991 Phillips Discrete Semiconductors Selector Guide and Cross Reference - 1993 Rockwell Controller Products Databook - 1987 ROHM Video ICs 1995/1996 Databook ROHM Light Emitting Diodes 1995/1996 Databook ROHM Motor Driver ICs 1995/1996 Databook Samsung MOS Memory - 1995 Samsung Graphic Memory Databook - 1996 Signetics TTL Data Manual 1986 Signetics FAST Data Manual - 1987 Standard Microsystems 1988 Components Catalog Texas Instruments Low Power Schottky and Advanced Low Power Schottky Products Oct. 1979 Texas Instruments 1981 Supplement to the TTL Data Book Varian Vacuum Technologies Product Catalog 2000 Xicor Databook - 1985 Xicor Serial I/O Datasheets - 1985 Xicor e2PROMs - 1985 -------------------------------- -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From mbg at world.std.com Sun Apr 30 22:11:46 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: 11/23+ question Message-ID: <200005010311.XAA23327@world.std.com> >>part number 010-01135-00 rev b etched on it. > >I don't see that part number in my indices, but it certainly sounds like >it may be a DEC part number. With the FIFO and the UART, it obviously DEC part numbers are 2-5-2 numbers -- two digits, five digits, two digits. So with this being 3-5-2, it doesn't appear on the face of it to be a DEC part number. But the board numbers will tell... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Apr 30 22:59:05 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: Tiny Cluster (VMS) ? Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000430205720.00b392a0@208.226.86.10> Ok, so I've got two VLC's and I want to see if I can cluster them over ethernet. This is a precursor to installing the 3400's to be a local cluster over DSSI. What document do I start in? I'm guessing that I somehow need to get MOP running on the VMS system and to tell it the ethernet address of the other VLC so that when it MOPs for an image the cluster will respond. --Chuck From marvin at rain.org Sun Apr 30 23:46:54 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:51:11 2005 Subject: OT: BB205 Varicap References: <4.3.1.2.20000430205720.00b392a0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <390D0C3E.AA34334@rain.org> I am looking for a BB205 Varicap, but so far have not been able to find it or the data sheets. It appears to be an SOT-23 sized surface mount device. I would also be MOST interested in knowing what the capacitance range is for the given voltage range. FWIW, this is for the tuning circuit in an 80M Direction Finding Receiver. Thanks. From jarkko.teppo at er-grp.com Thu Apr 20 07:34:36 2000 From: jarkko.teppo at er-grp.com (Jarkko Teppo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:02:28 2005 Subject: HP 98730 DaVinci Framebuffer ? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20010419090055.4787e432@mailhost.intellistar.net>; from rigdonj@intellistar.net on Thu, Apr 19, 2001 at 09:00:55AM -0500 References: <20010414022106.A229@sd160.local> <3.0.1.16.20010419090055.4787e432@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <20000420153436.A18706@sd160.local> On Thu, Apr 19, 2001 at 09:00:55AM -0500, Joe wrote: > Jarkko, > > > I can't help you with the software and docs but I have a 98730 also. I > thought it was just a card when I bought it on E-bay but was real surprised > when the seller wanted $40+ to ship it! I guess that would be a correct figure.. > I've opened it up and checked it > out inside. It's quite a piece of work! I don't have the cable of the > interface card for mine so it's just gathering dust at the moment. What I'd also like to get is a list of the cards (ID:s etc.). I think it's possible to extend it with 3D hw and the like. A funny snippet of information: in console mode (connected to a 9000/300) everytime the screen scrolls or prints something the fb makes these weird, pretty silent sounds. It sounds like it's powered by tiny hamsters in tiny workout wheels. Anyway, I assume you have the interface card, right ? Could tell me the model number of it so I could check if it matches the if-card that I have. It's a shame to let this fine peace of hardware rot unused:) TIA, -- jht