From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 1 00:07:33 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:36 2005 Subject: Suns, etc In-Reply-To: <199910010355.VAA28793@calico.litterbox.com> References: <50b9b61f.2525895e@aol.com> from "KFergason@aol.com" at Sep 30, 1999 11:49:50 PM Message-ID: >Does anyone remember those laptop sparc-alike boxes they made for a while? >Anyone know of anyplace that's selling those now that they're obselete? You mean something like my Tadpole Sparcbook 3GS :^) The Sparcbook 3's at least aren't obsolete, a little long in the tooth maybe... They're still fairly in demand, I got lucky and got mine fairly cheap. Go to http://www.sunhelp.org and look for the Sparcbook FAQ. That should give you a good idea of what's out there, and what they can do. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 1 00:28:09 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:37 2005 Subject: Suns, etc In-Reply-To: References: <199910010355.VAA28793@calico.litterbox.com> <50b9b61f.2525895e@aol.com> from "KFergason@aol.com" at Sep 30, 1999 Message-ID: >Are you referring to the Tadpole sparc clones? I don't know if they >still are produced but there are plenty of them on ebay. They still >fetch a pretty good price though. > >George IIRC, they're now only making UltraSparc laptops (gotta be sweet), and I think they've got a PA-RISC laptop. Unfortunatly they only made one model AlphaBook and it's discontinued. If anyone wants to trade a AlphaBook for a SparcBook, I've got a SparcBook 3GS. A laptop running VMS would be cool :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jim at calico.litterbox.com Fri Oct 1 00:33:49 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:37 2005 Subject: Suns, etc In-Reply-To: <9910010128170B.00726@vault.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Oct 01, 1999 01:26:47 AM Message-ID: <199910010533.XAA29142@calico.litterbox.com> > On Thu, 30 Sep 1999, Jim Strickland wrote: > >Does anyone remember those laptop sparc-alike boxes they made for a while? > > Tadpole Sparcbooks are the most popular ones. I use one every day...nice > machine. > > >Anyone know of anyplace that's selling those now that they're obselete? > > Sometimes you can find them on eBay, though they're not cheap. > > Interesting, what makes you think they're obsolete? > > -Dave McGuire Mostly because I remember they came out while I still lived in California, almost 4 years ago now. I was just wondering if they could be had for bargain prices, as the idea of a Unix laptop appeals to me, although not as much as a BeOS laptop. Quite a bit off topic, I know, but I figured folk here would know the answer. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 1 01:06:16 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:37 2005 Subject: Suns, etc In-Reply-To: <199910010533.XAA29142@calico.litterbox.com> References: <9910010128170B.00726@vault.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Oct 01, 1999 01:26:47 AM Message-ID: >Mostly because I remember they came out while I still lived in California, >almost 4 years ago now. I was just wondering if they could be had for bargain >prices, as the idea of a Unix laptop appeals to me, although not as much as a >BeOS laptop. Quite a bit off topic, I know, but I figured folk here would >know the answer. >-- >Jim Strickland >jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com They came out quite a while before that. I remember drooling over one in a magazine while I was riding MetroRail around in Washington DC, that would have been '92 or '93. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 1 00:26:47 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:37 2005 Subject: Suns, etc References: <199910010355.VAA28793@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <9910010128170B.00726@vault.neurotica.com> On Thu, 30 Sep 1999, Jim Strickland wrote: >Does anyone remember those laptop sparc-alike boxes they made for a while? Tadpole Sparcbooks are the most popular ones. I use one every day...nice machine. >Anyone know of anyplace that's selling those now that they're obselete? Sometimes you can find them on eBay, though they're not cheap. Interesting, what makes you think they're obsolete? -Dave McGuire From g at kurico.com Fri Oct 1 00:31:56 1999 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:38 2005 Subject: Suns, etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Didn't they also make some PowerPC portables for IBM as well (I know that they were supposed to, but I can't recall if they ever did). George > >Are you referring to the Tadpole sparc clones? I don't know if they > >still are produced but there are plenty of them on ebay. They still > >fetch a pretty good price though. > > > >George > > IIRC, they're now only making UltraSparc laptops (gotta be sweet), and > I think they've got a PA-RISC laptop. Unfortunatly they only made one > model AlphaBook and it's discontinued. > > If anyone wants to trade a AlphaBook for a SparcBook, I've got a > SparcBook 3GS. A laptop running VMS would be cool :^) > > Zane > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | > healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | > healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | > Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | > and Zane's Computer Museum. | | > http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 1 00:42:57 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:38 2005 Subject: Suns, etc References: <199910010533.XAA29142@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <9910010145230D.00726@vault.neurotica.com> On Fri, 01 Oct 1999, Jim Strickland wrote: >> Interesting, what makes you think they're obsolete? > >Mostly because I remember they came out while I still lived in California, >almost 4 years ago now. I was just wondering if they could be had for bargain >prices, as the idea of a Unix laptop appeals to me, although not as much as a >BeOS laptop. Quite a bit off topic, I know, but I figured folk here would >know the answer. Ack...I'm a bit jaded I guess; the whole technical staff of my company (about 18 people) *all* use Tadpole 3GX or 3XP systems. I see & use them every day, so I had forgotten all about the very existence of their older systems. I have a Sparc2-alike Tadpole here that's very weird...the boot monitor isn't very sun-like as I recall. A very strange machine. Keep your eyes open for a Sparcbook3 system...you'll *love* it! -Dave McGuire From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 1 00:45:29 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:38 2005 Subject: Suns, etc References: Message-ID: <9910010145480E.00726@vault.neurotica.com> On Fri, 01 Oct 1999, Zane H. Healy wrote: >If anyone wants to trade a AlphaBook for a SparcBook, I've got a SparcBook >3GS. A laptop running VMS would be cool :^) Now that *would* be cool! -Dave McGuire From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Oct 1 02:59:03 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:38 2005 Subject: Classical Computing software? In-Reply-To: <81ABF6783ED5D111816E00A0C997EB953663C4@FTPSERVER1> Message-ID: >My bulletin board system has over 4 gigs of classic computer games. They are >all games that haven't been sold since 1993. I also have the really old DOS >versions. I know it is illegal to have pirated games and software, but this >is stuff that you just can't find or buy ANYWHERE and there is no commercial >demand for such programs. Which means it would be a real shame to lose it all, so PLEASE matey, be discrete with access. For an object lesson in what a mess it can be take a look at Jagshouse (former old mac site, still alive, but minus software barely). From Jgzabol at aol.com Fri Oct 1 06:19:33 1999 From: Jgzabol at aol.com (Jgzabol@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:38 2005 Subject: Classical Computing software? Message-ID: <42a01836.2525f2c5@aol.com> There is the UNIX preservation society, who have a large collection of historic UNIX objects and sources. Search for "PUPS Unix preservation society" on the web, and you will find it. John G. Zabolitzky From Jgzabol at aol.com Fri Oct 1 06:21:23 1999 From: Jgzabol at aol.com (Jgzabol@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:38 2005 Subject: ENIAC book Message-ID: <867779a7.2525f333@aol.com> I got a copy some time ago, and also can recommend it thoroughly. John G. Zabolitzky From red at bears.org Fri Oct 1 06:36:12 1999 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:38 2005 Subject: Suns, etc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Oct 1999, George Currie wrote: > Didn't they also make some PowerPC portables for IBM as well (I > know that they were supposed to, but I can't recall if they ever did). Maybe they did, and maybe they didn't. IBM, however, made some of their own. ThinkPad Power Series 820, 850, and 860. They are sweet laptops; lots of groovy features, especially for their time (ca 1995). They are no longer manufactured or supported. IBM barely remember they existed, and OS support is spotty. I have a prototype 850. ok r. From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Oct 1 07:44:12 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:38 2005 Subject: PDP-11/45 documents In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990930211250.0214e3e0@mcmanis.com> References: <19990930220238.24210.qmail@brouhaha.com> <4.1.19990930092529.00b7e100@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991001082856.00a606e0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 09:29 PM 9/30/99 -0700, Chuck McManis said something like: >All, > >A couple of people have asked what 11/70 docs I have, turns out they were >11/45 docs. Perhaps that is better :-) > >This is what I have: -- snip list -- Hi Chuck, How about making some sort of arrangement to make an electronic copy (of some appropriate type) of these docs if possible? This would help many of us who have or possibly will have an 11/45/50/55. I could use a copy of the MS11 maint manual I think, for example. Hafta check. I've got an 11/34A which I need a KD11-EA maint manual. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From Tony.Eros at machm.org Fri Oct 1 07:57:11 1999 From: Tony.Eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:38 2005 Subject: ENIAC book References: Message-ID: <000a01bf0c0c$7c4b8c50$2c1a4810@newcas1.de.home.com> I read it last week and thought it was great. It brought to mind a talk John Mauchly gave at a personal computer convention in Philadelphia in 1976. I was in the audience and found him a pretty interesting guy. He devoted most of his talk to BINAC -- I've got an audio tape of it somewhere, I'll see it I can find it. I noted with interest the references to Electronic Control Company and Eckert-Mauchly Computer Corporation corporate papers. The Hagley Museum is just around the corner from me; I'll have to pay them a visit. The book's also spurred me to follow up on my family geneaology -- my grandmother was an Eckert -- maybe I'm related!! -- Tony Eros Mid-Atlantic Computer History Museum ----- Original Message ----- From: Rodrigo Ventura To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Thursday, September 30, 1999 3:13 PM Subject: ENIAC book > > Hi. I've just finished reading the book "ENIAC" by Scott > McCarthey, and loved it. Has anyone also read it? Any comments? > > Cheers, > > > -- > > *** Rodrigo Martins de Matos Ventura > *** Web page: http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/~yoda > *** Teaching Assistant and MSc Student at ISR: > *** Instituto de Sistemas e Robotica, Polo de Lisboa > *** Instituto Superior Tecnico, Lisboa, PORTUGAL > *** PGP fingerprint = 0119 AD13 9EEE 264A 3F10 31D3 89B3 C6C4 60C6 4585 > > From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Oct 1 09:21:32 1999 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:38 2005 Subject: RCA 1861, NTSC and a DEC VR-201 (Mea Culpa!) In-Reply-To: <199910010702.AAA23336@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: I blathered: >> 1 Black 1e0 First 2 digits give mantissa, >> 2 Brown 1e1 3rd digit gives exponent, ... Philip Belben corrected: >Ouch! No, black is zero, brown is one, up to white which is nine. *Thank You, Philip*! I guess it just proves that it takes more than a copy of Horowitz & Hill (who got it right) - one must also be *literate* to play an EE... The table I typed in was rotated by one digit. Ouch is right. Sorry about that! And right on the heels of Mars Climate Meteorite, too....those who don't study history and all that, I guess... - Mark From foxvideo at wincom.net Fri Oct 1 10:16:57 1999 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:38 2005 Subject: ENIAC book In-Reply-To: <867779a7.2525f333@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991001111657.007aac10@mail.wincom.net> At 07:21 AM 10/1/1999 EDT, you wrote: >I got a copy some time ago, and also can recommend it thoroughly. > >John G. Zabolitzky > > > I tried to order a copy through Yahoo's shopping department, the price was right, 2$ less than Amazon or Barnes & Noble, but their registration form refuses to recognize our six figure Canadian postal code! Guess I will have to go back to Amazon. Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo From msg at waste.org Fri Oct 1 10:30:59 1999 From: msg at waste.org (Infra) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:38 2005 Subject: IBM S/36 boot error 0010 Message-ID: Greetings! Please forgive the operational questions (we still are manual-less) but if we can get the box to boot the quest for support materials for our IBM 5363 III will be clearer. We've solved the case-entry problem and a PC running 5250 emul. is now recognised as the console. Rewiring the keyswitch allowed selection of Maint. mode. At IPL the console displays a countdown banner from 4 to 1 accompanied by cursor shifts and beeps; the SSP load commences and stops with a frontpanel display of '0010' and cursor shifts and beeps on the console. The 'program' led is lit. Selecting func. 5, sys reset, and then func. 9 'start ssp' invokes a dump utility on the console. We've tried DD and HD diskettes formatted in a variety of ways for the dump but all are rejected. This sequence is repeated at each IPL. Can someone describe both the meaning of the '0010' error and what a normal IPL should look like? What support diskettes were provided (microcode, maintenance, etc.)? What is the low level and high level format of compatible diskettes (are some formats PC-floppy readable to create disk images)? What is the likelihood of obtaining (at least hardware and operation) manuals from IBM in paper or microform and would contacting Rochester (MN) be the most effective approach? Thanks to the list members for all help. Michael Grigoni Cybertheque Museum From Glenatacme at aol.com Fri Oct 1 12:27:39 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:38 2005 Subject: Media interchange sillinesss (Was: floppy controller IC (wasRe: Message-ID: <3edc2518.2526490b@aol.com> In a message dated 9/30/99 8:36:50 PM EST, cisin@xenosoft.com writes: << Nevertheless, YMMV! >> YMMV? << Although I've had a moderate amount of experience of it NEVER working reliably, some folk seem to have a knack for using the wrong coercivity media and having it work just fine. Hmmm. >> Perhaps it's my own personal magnetism ;>) Glen Goodwin 0/0 From jlwest at tseinc.com Fri Oct 1 13:25:27 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:38 2005 Subject: New addition to the collection....PDP-11 Message-ID: <007c01bf0c3a$57339ce0$0101a8c0@jay> Just added to my collection from a VERY kind soul who I now owe a favor to... A PDP-11/44. It would appear that inside the cpu chassis is a CIM? card, about 5 cards that make up the cpu, and a memory card. There also looks to be two other cards, one I'm guessing just joins the backplane sections together, and the last looks like a bus terminator of some type. Do I have enough to test and start playing with? I've never seen a Unibus machine, but I'm guessing the CIM is for hooking up a console and getting some type of boot processor program visible? Thanks for any pointers! Jay West From cmcmanis at freegate.com Fri Oct 1 14:32:19 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: HELP! DHV-11 switch settings... Message-ID: <4.1.19991001123107.03e2def0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> I need to set a DHV-11 to CSR 160440 and I don't have the docs, is the dip switch dedicated to the CSR or are some of the bits not included? I need this for the VCF tomorrow! --Chuck From emu at ecubics.com Fri Oct 1 15:01:12 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: HELP! DHV-11 switch settings... References: <4.1.19991001123107.03e2def0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <00ac01bf0c47$c3b14810$5d01a8c0@ecubuero> ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck McManis To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Friday, October 01, 1999 1:32 PM Subject: HELP! DHV-11 switch settings... > I need to set a DHV-11 to CSR 160440 and I don't have the docs, is the dip > switch dedicated to the CSR or are some of the bits not included? I need > this for the VCF tomorrow! > > --Chuck Hi Chuck, Please have a look at: http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardware /dhv11.config cheers, emanuel From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Oct 1 15:04:38 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: HELP! DHV-11 switch settings... Message-ID: <991001160438.202001ca@trailing-edge.com> >I need to set a DHV-11 to CSR 160440 and I don't have the docs, is the dip >switch dedicated to the CSR or are some of the bits not included? I need >this for the VCF tomorrow! There are two 8-switch packs: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 O O O O C O O C O O O C C O O O \---/ \---/ \------/ \---/ \---/ 6 0 4 4 3 0 \------------------------/ \---------/ | \ Sets the CSR to 160440 Sets the Vector (low digit is always 0, high to 300 (low digit always 0) digits are 16 or 17) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Oct 1 15:07:45 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: New addition to the collection....PDP-11 Message-ID: <991001160745.202001ca@trailing-edge.com> >A PDP-11/44. It would appear that inside the cpu chassis is a CIM? card, >about 5 cards that make up the cpu, and a memory card. There also looks to >be two other cards, one I'm guessing just joins the backplane sections >together, and the last looks like a bus terminator of some type. Do I have >enough to test and start playing with? I've never seen a Unibus machine, but >I'm guessing the CIM is for hooking up a console and getting some type of >boot processor program visible? Indeed, you do plug the console terminal into the connector labeled "Console terminal" on the CIM :-). The other 5 cards you should have are the M7094, M7095, M7096, M7097, and M7098. If you turn on the 11/44 without backplane continuity, you'll likely get a "CP didn't start". With all those empty slots, you don't have backplane continuity! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From sescom at sescom.com Fri Oct 1 16:05:36 1999 From: sescom at sescom.com (Franklin J Miller) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <000701bf0c50$b8b2b620$0a01a8c0@sescom4> I would like to buy a manual for a TEK 5l4N. Please respond to Franklin J Miller, SESCOM inc. 702-565-3400 or email sescom@sescom.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991001/1c04c21d/attachment.html From rhblake at bigfoot.com Fri Oct 1 16:46:26 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: color video terminals for twinaxial Message-ID: <37F52BB2.325FF288@bigfoot.com> Anyone know of a really good reseller of used/operational color VDT's that work on twinax line? We're getting a lot of them dying at work (IO's and Decision Data brand) and they aren't worth the $150 an hour they want to repair them. Any info is appreciated. I'm in the central US so the closer the better. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 1 13:06:54 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: RCA 1861, NTSC and a DEC VR-201 In-Reply-To: <9910010241.ZM16538@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Oct 1, 99 01:41:15 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 872 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991001/4f097257/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 1 13:08:39 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: Freguson Big Board and Big Board II In-Reply-To: <001101bf0bb1$0f34d1e0$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Sep 30, 99 08:02:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 235 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991001/cc5fd6a4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 1 13:14:12 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: Media interchange sillinesss (Was: floppy controller IC (was Re: In-Reply-To: <37F4282C.D66DD06A@idirect.com> from "Jerome Fine" at Sep 30, 99 11:19:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1487 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991001/5460ead2/attachment.ksh From elvey at hal.com Fri Oct 1 17:26:33 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: RCA 1861, NTSC and a DEC VR-201 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199910012226.PAA13001@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > There are other transistors besides 2N3904s and 2N3906s? You mean > > BC109/184s, right? :-) > > Yes. And 2N3055 (high current, low-ish voltage), BU508 (HV switch), BF259 > (video amplifier). That's about it for bipolars :-)... > > -tony Hi Diodes were about the same. For years it was 1N914's then the newer 1N4148 took favor. Dwight From west at tseinc.com Fri Oct 1 17:51:22 1999 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 (configuration and identification) Message-ID: <013201bf0c5f$7d2d2400$0101a8c0@jay> Closer examination of my newly acquired 11/44 shows the following cards (right to left, as when standing at the front panel looking back towards the power supply).... CIM/M7090 open slot open slot DATAPATH/M7094 CONTROL/M7095 MFM/M7096 CACHE/M7097 UBI/M7098 open slot Standard Memories MM-144 open slot open slot open slot M9202 side 1 M9202 side 2 way down towards the front is a G727A Grant Continuity (about 2"x2") open slot open slot open slot open slot open slot open slot M9302 Most of these cards intuitively make sense as to their function. But what is MFM and UBI? The standard memories MM-144 looks like half the sockets are populated - I'm thinking 512K? Is this a runnable system or do I have to add cards or move cards to get a boot console alive? The system id tag says 11/44-XX upgraded to 11/44-CA. What's the CA designation? There were 3 cables screwed to a metal bar just thrown inside the cpu chassis: One was a Berg14 to Berg24, BC44D-09. Wheres this go from/to? One was Berg24-DB25F, BC44A-10. I'm guessing system console :) One was 20 pin DIP ribbon to berg20, and the berg 20 plugged into a little adapter that presented DB25. Any ideas? Lastly, the front panel switch. Appears 3 position, set left, set center, and momentary right returning to center. Is this correct operation or is the switch messed up? Anyone have a spare TU58? ! Just curious about most of this, don't really have time yet to work on it (still slaving over HP2100's and 7900A and 7906)! Jay West From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 1 17:19:31 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: New addition to the collection....PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <007c01bf0c3a$57339ce0$0101a8c0@jay> from "Jay West" at Oct 1, 99 01:25:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2682 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991001/92ac6f1d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 1 18:12:06 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 (configuration and identification) In-Reply-To: <013201bf0c5f$7d2d2400$0101a8c0@jay> from "Jay West" at Oct 1, 99 05:51:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2080 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991002/a2f9a88e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 1 18:15:13 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: RCA 1861, NTSC and a DEC VR-201 In-Reply-To: <199910012226.PAA13001@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at Oct 1, 99 03:26:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 865 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991002/8633b56b/attachment.ksh From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Fri Oct 1 18:34:17 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: pdp-8 Core Memory Board on eBay! Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991001163417.006a6334@mail.sfu.ca> Hi Gang: There's an Omnibus core memory board for sale on eBay. See: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=173721903 for details. The seller doesn't know what he has, other than it's a "vintage computer core memory board". The current price is $29.99. Kevin ========================================================== Sgt. Kevin McQuiggin, Vancouver Police Department E-Comm Project (604) 215-5095; Cell: (604) 868-0544 Email: mcquiggi@sfu.ca From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 1 18:38:00 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: Media interchange sillinesss (Was: floppy controller IC (wasRe: In-Reply-To: <3edc2518.2526490b@aol.com> Message-ID: > << Nevertheless, YMMV! >> > YMMV? Your Mileage May Vary > << Although I've had a moderate amount of experience of it NEVER working > reliably, some folk seem to have a knack for using the wrong coercivity > media and having it work just fine. Hmmm. >> > Perhaps it's my own personal magnetism ;>) probably From west at tseinc.com Fri Oct 1 18:40:38 1999 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: pdp-8 Core Memory Board on eBay! Message-ID: <000801bf0c66$5ffee100$0101a8c0@jay> If it's for an 8E, I'd be very interested in it! Isn't there a difference between the core boards for 8E, 8I, 8L, etc.? Hopefully it's for an 8E, working, and no one else bids on it ! Jay West -----Original Message----- From: Kevin McQuiggin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, October 01, 1999 6:36 PM Subject: pdp-8 Core Memory Board on eBay! >Hi Gang: > >There's an Omnibus core memory board for sale on eBay. See: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=173721903 > >for details. The seller doesn't know what he has, other than it's a >"vintage computer core memory board". The current price is $29.99. > >Kevin > > >========================================================== >Sgt. Kevin McQuiggin, Vancouver Police Department >E-Comm Project (604) 215-5095; Cell: (604) 868-0544 >Email: mcquiggi@sfu.ca > > From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Oct 1 18:54:23 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: pdp-8 Core Memory Board on eBay!u In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19991001163417.006a6334@mail.sfu.ca> from Kevin McQuiggin at "Oct 1, 1999 04:34:17 pm" Message-ID: <199910012354.XAA03160@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > Hi Gang: > > There's an Omnibus core memory board for sale on eBay. See: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=173721903 > > for details. The seller doesn't know what he has, other than it's a > "vintage computer core memory board". The current price is $29.99. > > Kevin > Hmm, but why does the label state that its a 8K x 16 core plane? Sounds like it should be for some sort of pdp-11 system. -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Oct 1 17:42:35 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: RCA 1861, NTSC and a DEC VR-201 In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: RCA 1861, NTSC and a DEC VR-201" (Oct 1, 19:06) References: Message-ID: <9910012342.ZM17385@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 1, 19:06, Tony Duell wrote: > > There are other transistors besides 2N3904s and 2N3906s? You mean > > BC109/184s, right? :-) > > Yes. And 2N3055 (high current, low-ish voltage), BU508 (HV switch), BF259 > (video amplifier). That's about it for bipolars :-)... You missed AC128 and OC71 :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From g at kurico.com Fri Oct 1 19:06:25 1999 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: Kaypro 2k Message-ID: Anyone with a Kaypro 2000 portable out there? If so can you let me know what the specs are for the ac adapter. TIA George From doran at megsinet.net Fri Oct 1 19:11:43 1999 From: doran at megsinet.net (doran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] pdp-8 Core Memory Board on eBay! Message-ID: <000901bf0c6a$b60c7680$83cfd6d8@pavilion> Kevin, It has been some time since I toyed with my pdp8 computers. Literally many years. I read the note about the memory on ebay being an omnibus memory. Did they use 16 bit core on a 12 bit machine ? At first glance I would think it was a pdp11 module. DEC may have used 16 bit cores on pdp 8 boxes, I'm almost curious enough to blow the dust off the old chassis and look. Ed Doran -----Original Message----- From: Kevin McQuiggin To: pdp8-lovers@onelist.com ; classiccmp@u.washington.edu Date: Friday, October 01, 1999 6:40 PM Subject: [PDP8-Lovers] pdp-8 Core Memory Board on eBay! >From: Kevin McQuiggin > >Hi Gang: > >There's an Omnibus core memory board for sale on eBay. See: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=173721903 > >for details. The seller doesn't know what he has, other than it's a >"vintage computer core memory board". The current price is $29.99. > >Kevin > > >========================================================== >Sgt. Kevin McQuiggin, Vancouver Police Department >E-Comm Project (604) 215-5095; Cell: (604) 868-0544 >Email: mcquiggi@sfu.ca > >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > >??? Computer Questions ==> Free Answers From Live Experts ! ! ! > go to EXPERTCITY.COM > Click Here > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 1 19:06:24 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: RCA 1861, NTSC and a DEC VR-201 In-Reply-To: <9910012342.ZM17385@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Oct 1, 99 10:42:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 505 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991002/2e0f93fa/attachment.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 1 20:35:32 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: pdp-8 Core Memory Board on eBay! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19991001163417.006a6334@mail.sfu.ca> Message-ID: >There's an Omnibus core memory board for sale on eBay. See: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=173721903 > >for details. The seller doesn't know what he has, other than it's a >"vintage computer core memory board". The current price is $29.99. > >Kevin I think that's a H214 board for a PDP-11. Looks exactly like the one in my lap at the moment. The only difference is the manufacturer of the actual core. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From west at tseinc.com Fri Oct 1 20:19:42 1999 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: tu58 picture? Message-ID: <000301bf0c74$35ded980$0101a8c0@jay> Just out of curiousity, anyone know a URL to any pictures of a TU58? Thanks! Jay West From rkaplan at accsys-corp.com Sat Oct 2 01:03:05 1999 From: rkaplan at accsys-corp.com (Randy Kaplan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: Opening the Sun Lunchbox (411 Style Case) References: Message-ID: <37F5A019.C6228830@accsys-corp.com> Just a thanks to all who answered my questions about opening the 411 case and disk drive. We got it open. We swapped out drives. We are formatting !! Randy From pacomo at execpc.com Sat Oct 2 12:10:23 1999 From: pacomo at execpc.com (Paco Morales) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: How do unsubcribe? References: <37F5A019.C6228830@accsys-corp.com> Message-ID: <37F63C7F.54F2A81E@execpc.com> Can anyone tell me how to unsubcribe to this listserv?. I lost the original msg! Thanx! Paco From foxvideo at wincom.net Sat Oct 2 09:22:28 1999 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: How do unsubcribe? In-Reply-To: <37F63C7F.54F2A81E@execpc.com> References: <37F5A019.C6228830@accsys-corp.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991002102228.007aa530@mail.wincom.net> At 12:10 PM 10/2/1999 -0500, you wrote: >Can anyone tell me how to unsubcribe to this listserv?. I lost the original msg! > >Thanx! > >Paco > > > Send a message to listproc@u.washington.edu with the line below being the only one in the message: unsubscribe classiccmp Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo From quitho at t-online.de Sat Oct 2 11:04:01 1999 From: quitho at t-online.de (Thomas Quiring) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: EPSON L2 Message-ID: <37F62CF1.AE921014@t-online.de> Hi all, I just came across an EPSON L2 - an 286-based laptop with 20 MB hdd and a monochrome LCD, made by EPSON TELFORD Ltd. U.K.. The unit is in good shape and working fine, but as I have no documentation, setup disks etc. at all, I can't view or change any settings. Can someone help me with this? Thanks in advance, Thomas From jwebste3 at bellsouth.net Sat Oct 2 13:30:01 1999 From: jwebste3 at bellsouth.net (JAMES WEBSTER) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: EPSON L2 References: <37F62CF1.AE921014@t-online.de> Message-ID: <37F64F29.7175@bellsouth.net> Thomas, http://www.epson.com/support/instans/nbltspec.html http://www.epson.com/support/instans/selctnb.html The USA site appears to be the only one with PC files and info. This could be equal to the USA model LT 286. The FTP link contains a number of files. If you need any of the FaxBack documents, let me know which ones. I have a FAX machine in my office downstairs. Will get someone one to scan them for me, for EMailing to you. Unless someone has a better solution. Jim Webster Thomas Quiring wrote: > > Hi all, > > I just came across an EPSON L2 - an 286-based laptop with 20 MB hdd and > a monochrome LCD, made by EPSON TELFORD Ltd. U.K.. The unit is in good > shape and working fine, but as I have no documentation, setup disks etc. > at all, I can't view or change any settings. Can someone help me with > this? > > Thanks in advance, > > Thomas From hrothgar at total.net Sat Oct 2 05:24:02 1999 From: hrothgar at total.net (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: A1 still in business! Message-ID: Hi, I visited A1 Vente Ordinateur in St. Laurent, Quebec, today. They're still operating, and they've still got stacks of stuff. Most of what I saw were monitors, and everything I had on my personal list was 'out of stock' thanks to their recent problems, but they're expecting more loads of stuff in the coming week. I didn't ask about a MicroVAX because I was there by foot (quite a long walk from the Metro!) and probably wouldn't have been able to afford one anyway. :) Most of the stacks are off-limits to customers, but I did find a NeXTStation in the public area. I didn't take it because I don't think it can do anything on its own. :) I asked if they had a Cube, but they didn't. No Amiga stuff, either, although they did have a Toaster 4000 a while back that apparently sold very quickly. Anyway, SPAMmers or not, I'll probably be doing business with them in the future. There is, after all, a lot of stuff that never appears at the Salvation Army stores. :) -- Doug Spence Hrothgar's Cool Old Junk Page: hrothgar@total.net http://www.total.net/~hrothgar/museum/ From hrothgar at total.net Sat Oct 2 16:11:47 1999 From: hrothgar at total.net (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: OT?: Ergo "Moby Brick" Message-ID: One of the other recycled computer places I went to yesterday had an interesting non-classic PC. It was a small, heavy, metal thing, with a marbled paintjob, called a "Moby Brick". 486-DX25. It had a matching marbled keyboard. Really cute. I would have taken it home with me had it not been missing the external power supply, or if they hadn't wanted $40 for it. (For a cute doorstop, maybe I'd pay $25-$30, but not $40. At least not until I regret leaving it behind and go back for it. :) ) Anyway, I think this machine might be a future collectable. There are so few modern machines with anything interesting about them, that I think that unusual case designs might be the only thing to look forward to. Other than the BeBox and wierd Atari ST and Amiga clones, anyway. :) -- Doug Spence Hrothgar's Cool Old Junk Page: hrothgar@total.net http://www.total.net/~hrothgar/museum/ From west at tseinc.com Sat Oct 2 15:33:56 1999 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: IC replacement help! Message-ID: <000d01bf0d15$7461bd20$0101a8c0@jay> Trying to find out exactly what the following IC is... The chip has the motorola M logo on it with part number 1820-0140 Some HP manuals I have say 1820-0140 is manufactured by Motorola, and the motorola part number is SC7513PK But, that's all the info I can find. Anyone have any ideas? TIA! Jay West From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Oct 2 15:59:42 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: OT?: Ergo "Moby Brick" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >One of the other recycled computer places I went to yesterday had an >interesting non-classic PC. It was a small, heavy, metal thing, with a >marbled paintjob, called a "Moby Brick". 486-DX25. It had a matching >marbled keyboard. Really cute. I would have taken it home with me had >it not been missing the external power supply, or if they hadn't wanted >$40 for it. (For a cute doorstop, maybe I'd pay $25-$30, but not $40. >At least not until I regret leaving it behind and go back for it. :) ) You passed up a "Moby Brick"?!?! I've never even seen one, but remember seeing it in PC Magazine about 8 or 9 years ago. That's one of the few PC's I'd consider adding to my collection, just because it is such an odd-ball. The other one I would consider from this era is the one that was built into a keyboard. >Anyway, I think this machine might be a future collectable. There are >so few modern machines with anything interesting about them, that I >think that unusual case designs might be the only thing to look forward >to. > >Other than the BeBox and wierd Atari ST and Amiga clones, anyway. :) Well, the 20th Anniversary Mac comes to mind. Still of the systems you'd normally find in a home the last 10 years have been pretty slim pickings. With the last of the Amiga's and Atari's close reaching the 10 year mark. To find anything interesting and unusual in the last ten years you've just about got to look at the Workstation, and Server markets. For example the Sparc 20, Ultra 2, or AlphaStation 500 are all semi-recent systems that are interesting. I've got to confess the main reason I like AlphaStation 255's and 500's is the case :^) Now if only you could get a matching monitor, keyboard and mouse :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cmw0 at 0ngpa8.net Sat Oct 2 16:40:59 1999 From: cmw0 at 0ngpa8.net (cmw0@0ngpa8.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: Famous Private-Eye Shows You, Make 10K A Month Message-ID: <0FIZ00I70W7ZW8@mail-relay.mciworld.com> Oprah, Nightline, Maria Shriver, 48 Hours, 20/20, Playboy, Kiplingers and more have all interviewed this famous Private Investigator. Now, you too can make substantial income using Schweitzers highly sought- after SECRETS. Thank you for your interest in our training Course! Judgment Acquisition & Recovery, Inc. offers an extensive training course in "How to Collect Judicial Judgments". 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This is entirely non-confrontational and requires no special licensing. Right now in the United States there is between 200 and 300 billion dollars of uncollected Judicial Judgments. For every Judgment that is paid, 5 or more Judgments take its place. The income potential is substantial in this profession. Using the techniques taught in this course, people are now working full-time making $96,000.00 to over $200,000.00 per year, Part-time associates are earning between $24,000.00 and $100,000.00 per year. Most choose to work out of their homes, other build sizable organizations. Today, people trained in this business opportunity are processing over 500 million dollars in Judicial Judgments. So, if you've ever dreamed of the financial freedom that owning your own business can provide. Dreamed of an early retirement, this may be the opportunity for you. None of your days will be dull. You will be mentally challenged. This business protects you from corporate downsizing. This business is your ticket to freedom from others telling you what to do. This business lets you control your destiny! Our training has made this happen for many others already, Make it happen for you! If the above sounds interesting to you then its time for you to talk to a real live human being, no cost or obligation on your part. Please call us at 1-888-309-5852 (Toll Free) and speak with Al Schweitzer directly (between the hours of 9:00am - 5:00pm, Mountain Time) Thank you for your time and interest. From donm at cts.com Sat Oct 2 17:44:10 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: Kaypro 2k In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Oct 1999, George Currie wrote: > Anyone with a Kaypro 2000 portable out there? If so can you let > me know what the specs are for the ac adapter. > > TIA > George > I would also be interested. - don From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Oct 2 18:03:05 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: Famous Private-Eye Shows You, Make 10K A Month In-Reply-To: cmw0@0ngpa8.net "Famous Private-Eye Shows You, Make 10K A Month" (Oct 2, 21:40) References: <0FIZ00I70W7ZW8@mail-relay.mciworld.com> Message-ID: <9910030003.ZM1599@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 2, 21:40, cmw0@0ngpa8.net wrote: > Subject: Famous Private-Eye Shows You, Make 10K A Month A look at the headers and a few moments with nslookup show that this came from a dial-up line owned by UUNet, though it was relayed through mciworld.com. I've mailed UUNet to complain, since that was definitely against their conditions of use policy... -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From DD950 at prodigy.net Sat Oct 2 18:26:29 1999 From: DD950 at prodigy.net (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: Famous Private-Eye Shows You, Make 10K A Month Message-ID: <00a301bf0d2d$8fc672a0$13d8fea9@cel-366> -----Original Message----- From: Pete Turnbull >On Oct 2, 21:40, cmw0@0ngpa8.net wrote: >> Subject: Famous Private-Eye Shows You, Make 10K A Month > >A look at the headers and a few moments with nslookup Hi Peter: Thanks for taking a good whack at the spam. I have been trying do some spam whacking myself and have lately been using the free service part of http://spamcop.net . I used spamcop on that same spam message and the spamcop results are found here: http://spamcop.net/sc?id=1116253&crc=178709 I would be interested on your thoughts of this SpamCop.net? Is it worth my effort to parse and report the spam with it? How did it do on this example of spam? Just wondering if you have the time to comment. Thanks for you time, Jim Rossbach, Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club Web Ring, www.TonkinYachts.cjb.net Only when no one responds to spam will it go away. From rws at enteract.com Sat Oct 2 18:39:21 1999 From: rws at enteract.com (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: NCR Tower 32/500- lost root password Message-ID: I've got a NCR Tower 32/500 (3466-500) running Unix that has a mixed-up root password- see, I got it in working condition, with no password on root. Like a dolt, I changed the password before setting up an account for myself. It happily took the password, and I did an orderly shutdown. Later, I re-started and went to log in, and it kept coming up with 'login incorrect'. I did a disorderly shutdown (no way to log in to do it right) and now it comes up in single-user mode saying it needs to be fsck'ed (no problem), but it still wants a password. I've tried every convolution of the password I used (it was a simple word, a numeral, and the # sign) with no luck. I do not know any other accounts/passwords, nor do I have a system install tape. Is there any way to get in without a password and edit the /etc/.passwd file? Richard From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Oct 2 22:05:48 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: Classical Computing software? Message-ID: <1e704ad7.2528220c@aol.com> In a message dated 10/1/99 3:59:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mikeford@socal.rr.com writes: > >My bulletin board system has over 4 gigs of classic computer games. They are > >all games that haven't been sold since 1993. I also have the really old DOS > >versions. I know it is illegal to have pirated games and software, but this > >is stuff that you just can't find or buy ANYWHERE and there is no > commercial > >demand for such programs. > > Which means it would be a real shame to lose it all, so PLEASE matey, be > discrete with access. For an object lesson in what a mess it can be take a > look at Jagshouse (former old mac site, still alive, but minus software > barely). > thankfully, i was able to grab all the goodies from jags house before it was changed. now, i just need a zip drive power supply... DB Young Team OS/2 --> this message printed on recycled disk space view the computers of yesteryear at http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 2 22:18:10 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: ZIP Drive Power Supply (wasRe: Classical Computing software? In-Reply-To: <1e704ad7.2528220c@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Oct 1999 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > thankfully, i was able to grab all the goodies from jags house before it was > changed. now, i just need a zip drive power supply... ZIP drive run on 5V. LOTS of it. Over an amp? If you don't have their wall wart, consider that the flopy and hard drive connectors inside your PC provide plenty of 5V. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Oct 3 00:01:47 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: OT?: Ergo "Moby Brick" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >seeing it in PC Magazine about 8 or 9 years ago. That's one of the few >PC's I'd consider adding to my collection, just because it is such an >odd-ball. > >The other one I would consider from this era is the one that was built into >a keyboard. You mean like my Jamicon/Microbuilt SpaceSaver? Its a thick keyboard with a 3.5 floppy, 65 mb HD, and a something 386/33. I found 4 of them at a salvage place, but they only let me buy one of them. ;( At least they kept the others, so I continue to lurk waiting for a chance to buy them. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 3 02:08:29 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: New addition to the collection....PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <007c01bf0c3a$57339ce0$0101a8c0@jay> (jlwest@tseinc.com) References: <007c01bf0c3a$57339ce0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <19991003070829.6201.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Jay West" wrote: > A PDP-11/44. It would appear that inside the cpu chassis is a CIM? card, > about 5 cards that make up the cpu, The CIM is part of the CPU. Don't move the CPU and memory cards around; they have dedicated slots. (Well, there are four memory slots that are identical). The module utilization for the main CPU backplane is: slot module 1 A-B M7090 KD11-Z CIM Console Interface Module 1 C-F M7091 KE44-A CIS (Commercial Instruction Set) option 2 A-F M7092 KE44-A CIS (Commercial Instruction Set) option 3 A-F M7093 FP11-F Floating Point option 4 A-F M7094 KD11-Z CPU Data Path 5 A-F M7095 KD11-Z CPU Control 6 A-F M7096 KD11-Z CPU MFM Multi Function Module 7 A-F M7097 KD11-Z CPU Cache 8 A-F M7098 KD11-Z UBI Unibus Interface 9-12 A-F M8722 MS11-M memory (256 KB ECC) or M???? 1 MB ECC 13 A-F SPC (quad or hex), 13 A-B are MUD 14 A-B Unibus terminator or output 14 C-F SPC (quad) Note that slot 1 is the rightmost as the machine is viewed from the front, and that row A is toward the read and row B toward the front. If you install or remove NPG devices in slot 13 or 14, you may have to wire wrap some lines on the backplane. Unused SPC slots require a G727, G7270, or G7273 card for bus grant continuity. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 3 04:07:31 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: DEC GT40 original list price? Message-ID: <19991003090731.7058.qmail@brouhaha.com> Does anyone happen to recall the original price of the DEC GT40 graphics terminal? I'm exhibiting one at the VCF, running the famouus Lunar Lander game by Jack Burness, and several people have asked me what the terminal originally sold for. Thanks! Eric http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/dec/gt40/ From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun Oct 3 08:59:12 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: NCR Tower 32/500- lost root password In-Reply-To: from "Richard W. Schauer" at "Oct 2, 1999 6:39:21 pm" Message-ID: <199910031359.JAA18922@pechter.dyndns.org> > I've got a NCR Tower 32/500 (3466-500) running Unix that has a mixed-up > root password- see, I got it in working condition, with no password on > root. Like a dolt, I changed the password before setting up an account > for myself. It happily took the password, and I did an orderly shutdown. > Later, I re-started and went to log in, and it kept coming up with 'login > incorrect'. I did a disorderly shutdown (no way to log in to do it right) > and now it comes up in single-user mode saying it needs to be fsck'ed (no > problem), but it still wants a password. I've tried every convolution > of the password I used (it was a simple word, a numeral, and the # sign) > with no luck. I do not know any other accounts/passwords, nor do I have a > system install tape. Is there any way to get in without a password and > edit the /etc/.passwd file? > > Richard The # sign is the problem...I'll bet. Some AT&T Unix's used to use that as a special delete character. Try using a backslash \ before the pound sign. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From Historical at aol.com Sun Oct 3 09:51:18 1999 From: Historical at aol.com (Historical@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: IBM System 23 and (2) IBM System 36s for grabs(2) IBM System 36 Message-ID: Please contact the person directly with the equipment. Thier message follows: <> From cube at msn.fullfeed.com Sun Oct 3 09:51:45 1999 From: cube at msn.fullfeed.com (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: IBM 3270 PC In-Reply-To: <37EC40CA.31840712@bigfoot.com> References: <199909250020.TAA13499@fullfeed.msn.fullfeed.com> Message-ID: Right: If you pull the display card out (and the special keyboard card and attached memory card), then what you get is indeed a plain old XT. But if you leave the display card in, THEN you need the corresponding monitor. (I do note, however, that the 3270 PC Maintenance Information manual that I have *implies* that one can also hook up a monochrome adapter to the 3270PC display adapter. But I have *never* seen one configured that way.) Jay At 10:26 PM 9/24/99 -0500, you wrote: >worked fine on mine, with a hercules card and 5151 monitor. > >Jay Jaeger wrote: > >> True, so long as you have the MONITOR. I believe the original >> correspondent did not have the monitor, and another correspondent suggested >> that an ordinary monochrome monitor would work. Not true, AFAIK. > --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection Jay.Jaeger@msn.fullfeed.com visit http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/~cube From cube at msn.fullfeed.com Sun Oct 3 09:58:47 1999 From: cube at msn.fullfeed.com (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: IBM 3270 PC In-Reply-To: <199909250027.TAA12209@trailingedge.com> References: <199909250020.TAA13502@fullfeed.msn.fullfeed.com> <002d01bf0699$b93849a0$c67a3fd1@oemcomputer> Message-ID: First off, if you don't have a little connector at the TOP of the display card (it is a FULL LENGTH) card, then you have neither one (or you are missing some connectors... ;-) ). If you have ONE little connector at the top, bridging the cards, then you have the All Points Addressable adapter. It is part number 8654390, according to the info I have. If you have TWO little connectors at the top, bridging the cards, then you have the Programmed Symbols adapter. It is part number 8654381, according to the info I have. The PS adapter was designed for use in emulating the original 3270 graphcis displays, which were not all points addressable, but instead used dynamically downloaded character sets. (Yes it is possible to do bit image graphics this way -- up to a point. It is butt-ugly to program). Of course, if you had a diagnostics diskette for the beast, that would also tell you what you have. Un Jay At 07:30 PM 9/24/99 -0500, you wrote: >How can I id which card it is? > >On 24 Sep 99, at 19:10, Jay Jaeger wrote: > >> There is another issue. IBM had two graphics cards for these beasts. One >> was a Programmed Symbols Adapter. The other was an All Points Addressable >> adapter. >> >> If he has the latter, AND the monitor, then most things will be compatible >> with CGA graphics. If he has the former (the PSA), then he has no PC >> compatible graphics mode, IIRC. >> >> Jay > > >----- >David Williams - Computer Packrat >dlw@trailingedge.com >http://www.trailingedge.com > --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection Jay.Jaeger@msn.fullfeed.com visit http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/~cube From cube at msn.fullfeed.com Sun Oct 3 10:18:37 1999 From: cube at msn.fullfeed.com (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:39 2005 Subject: DEC GT40 original list price? In-Reply-To: <19991003090731.7058.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <199910031526.KAA03811@fullfeed.msn.fullfeed.com> The information I have indicates that the University of Wisconsin paid $10,200 for one in 1975. But that was a bid, and the quote returned indicated that it was a GT40-AA "Demonstrator Model". So, it was probably not new, and was presumably discounted. I actually obtained that machine later on, and restored it. By the way, I am curious where you got your lander program... I ask because a few years back, I contacted Jack (via a pointer from the Computer Museum in Boston), and what he had was a 9 -Track tape that he had gotten from someone who had preserved a copy while he was at the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee. He sent me the tape, and I read it and returned the contents to him, including the lander program, some demo programs, etc. Jay Jaeger At 09:07 AM 10/3/99 +0000, you wrote: >Does anyone happen to recall the original price of the DEC GT40 >graphics terminal? I'm exhibiting one at the VCF, running the >famouus Lunar Lander game by Jack Burness, and several people have >asked me what the terminal originally sold for. > >Thanks! >Eric > >http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/dec/gt40/ > --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection Jay.Jaeger@msn.fullfeed.com visit http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/~cube From cube at msn.fullfeed.com Sun Oct 3 10:21:01 1999 From: cube at msn.fullfeed.com (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: DEC GT40 original list price? In-Reply-To: References: <19991003090731.7058.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <199910031528.KAA03890@fullfeed.msn.fullfeed.com> Oh, and "MOON LANDER PROGRAM" was *explicity* written on the requisition... 8-) At 10:18 AM 10/3/99 -0500, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >The information I have indicates that the University of Wisconsin paid $10,200 for one in 1975. But that was a bid, and the quote returned indicated that it was a GT40-AA "Demonstrator Model". So, it was probably not new, and was presumably discounted. I actually obtained that machine later on, and restored it. > >By the way, I am curious where you got your lander program... I ask because a few years back, I contacted Jack (via a pointer from the Computer Museum in Boston), and what he had was a 9 -Track tape that he had gotten from someone who had preserved a copy while he was at the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee. He sent me the tape, and I read it and returned the contents to him, including the lander program, some demo programs, etc. > >Jay Jaeger > >At 09:07 AM 10/3/99 +0000, you wrote: >>Does anyone happen to recall the original price of the DEC GT40 >>graphics terminal? I'm exhibiting one at the VCF, running the >>famouus Lunar Lander game by Jack Burness, and several people have >>asked me what the terminal originally sold for. >> >>Thanks! >>Eric >> >>http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/dec/gt40/ >> > --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection Jay.Jaeger@msn.fullfeed.com visit http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/~cube From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Oct 3 10:37:19 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: DEC GT40 original list price? Message-ID: <991003113719.2020027e@trailing-edge.com> >Oh, and "MOON LANDER PROGRAM" was *explicity* written on the requisition... > 8-) I have a 8.5 x 11" 50-page glossy brochure from DEC on their PDP-11 line, circa 1977 or so, and on the same page as the GT40 is a stylized lunar lander :-). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Sun Oct 3 11:28:15 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: ZIP Drive Power Supply (wasRe: Classical Computing software? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Good memory? My power-pack is exactly 5V at 1A... On Sat, 2 Oct 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Sat, 2 Oct 1999 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > > thankfully, i was able to grab all the goodies from jags house before it was > > changed. now, i just need a zip drive power supply... > > ZIP drive run on 5V. LOTS of it. Over an amp? > If you don't have their wall wart, consider that the flopy and hard drive > connectors inside your PC provide plenty of 5V. > From a2k at one.net Sun Oct 3 12:47:06 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: NCR Tower 32/500- lost root password In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > root. Like a dolt, I changed the password before setting up an account I've done the same thing on my Linux boxen ;) > system install tape. Is there any way to get in without a password and > edit the /etc/.passwd file? Yes. Boot into single-user mode and edit /etc/passwd and remove all the encrypted text between the colons so you end up with a line like: root::0:0:roto-rooter:/root:/bin/csh or whatever shell you use. > > Richard > > Kevin From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Oct 3 08:27:18 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: Famous Private-Eye Shows You, Make 10K A Month In-Reply-To: "Jim" "Re: Famous Private-Eye Shows You, Make 10K A Month" (Oct 2, 16:26) References: <00a301bf0d2d$8fc672a0$13d8fea9@cel-366> Message-ID: <9910031427.ZM834@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Hi, Jim. On Oct 2, 16:26, Jim wrote: > Thanks for taking a good whack at the spam. I have been trying do some spam > whacking myself and have lately been using the free service part of > http://spamcop.net . > > I used spamcop on that same spam message and the spamcop results are found > here: > > http://spamcop.net/sc?id=1116253&crc=178709 It did almost exactly what I did, and arrived at the same conclusion, ie that the mail came from a UUNet dialup and should be reported to abuse-mail@uu.net, which is what I did. I got the acknowledgement of my complaint a few minutes later. BTW, it's often the case that ISPs like UUNet respond more strongly if several people complain about the same spammer, so there's nothing to stop anyone else making a similar complaint. You do need to include *all* the headers, though, and preferably the body of the text, too. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From accentontravel at juno.com Sun Oct 3 14:02:55 1999 From: accentontravel at juno.com (accentontravel@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: Canon Cat Work Processor Message-ID: <19991003.120256.-300463.0.accentontravel@juno.com> Hello, We are looking for one or more Canon Cats to backup/replace existing working units in our office. Can you help or advise? I found your e-mail address on the Web while searching for info on the Cats. Regards, Ted Blishak First Cabin Holidays, Inc. dba Accent On Travel-USA 3939 S Sixth St., PMB 331, Klamath Falls, OR 97603 ph 541 885 7330 800 347 0645 fax 541 883 6457 http://www.trainweb.com/aot From rwaltman at bellatlantic.net Sun Oct 3 14:38:34 1999 From: rwaltman at bellatlantic.net (Roberto Waltman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: Wanted: MicroBee computer Message-ID: <37f8b01e.13232066@news5.bellatlantic.net> I would like to buy a MicroBee machine, preferably one running CP/M, but one of the earlier/smaller BASIC ROM based models would be considered also. Roberto Waltman rwaltman@bellatlantic.net From mbg at world.std.com Sun Oct 3 16:17:59 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: DEC GT40 original list price? Message-ID: <199910032117.RAA23082@world.std.com> >By the way, I am curious where you got your lander program... I ask >because a few years back, I contacted Jack (via a pointer from the >Computer Museum in Boston), and what he had was a 9 -Track tape that he >had gotten from someone who had preserved a copy while he was at the >University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee. He sent me the tape, and I read it >and returned the contents to him, including the lander program, some demo >programs, etc. The version I have is the one I obtained back in 1975 or so... one that Jack and I worked on when I was a student at WPI and he was visiting the college for some reason... The ME department had a GT44 (11/40 based system with a VT11 and VR14) and we did some work on it to fix some intensity problems with the thrust and directional control bars as well as getting it to work with a programmable clock. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From donm at cts.com Sun Oct 3 17:33:08 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: Wanted: MicroBee computer In-Reply-To: <37f8b01e.13232066@news5.bellatlantic.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Oct 1999, Roberto Waltman wrote: > I would like to buy a MicroBee machine, preferably > one running CP/M, but one of the earlier/smaller > BASIC ROM based models would be considered > also. > > Roberto Waltman > rwaltman@bellatlantic.net > Don't forget that there are U.S. Microbees (Beehive) and Australian Microbees. I think (?) they are related in name only. - don From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Sun Oct 3 18:02:44 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: AT&T PC 6300 Plus Unix box Message-ID: <199910032302.TAA04424@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> On 29 Sep 1999, somebody who should know better wrote: ] > Yesterday I scooped an AT&T PC 6300 Unix machine on its way ] ] It's not a Unix machine. (Or, at least, not a very good one.) ] Perhaps you're thinking of the 7300? Well, its former owner called it a 6300 Unix machine, its cover has "6300 PLUS" printed on it in nice big letters, and the floppies that I got with it have preprinted labels like this: AT&T Unix(R) System V Release 2.0 AT&T Personal Computer 6300 PLUS What do you think? Is it a 6300 PLUS? Is it a Unix machine? Maybe it isn't a very good Unix machine. Still, I'd like to get it to boot and come to my own conclusions. Help is welcome. Remember people, this is an "oldies" list. If some machine here isn't fast/good/new enough for you, maybe you accidentally subscribed to the wrong list? Please try to contain the knee-jerk put-downs. Bill. From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Sun Oct 3 18:17:03 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: AT&T PC 6300 Plus Unix box Message-ID: <199910032317.TAA04507@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> I haven't been able to alter its power-up diagnostic sequence. Tried holding down different function keys, escape, control-this, control-that, blah blah blah... while booting. If there is a BIOS setup program built in, I'd love to know how to wake it up. It didn't even glance at the floppy drive during all of this, so putting any particular disk into the drive seems unlikely to make any difference. Looks like maybe I'll have to warm up the soldering iron. Heck, for that many chips, maybe the propane torch is more appropriate. Bill. On Thu, 30 Sep 1999, Glenatacme@aol.com wrote: ] In a message dated 09/29/1999 5:16:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ] yakowenk@cs.unc.edu writes: ] > Yesterday I scooped an AT&T PC 6300 Unix machine on its way ] ] Does this box have a BIOS setup program onboard or must you use a ] configuration disk? (if so do you have the disk?) ] ] I'd try turning off the parity check on the unlikely chance that the parity ] check itself is loopy . . . other than that, you've got a _lot_ of soldering ] to do ;>) ] ] BTW ISTR that one of our "customers" abandoned a 6300 in lieu of having it ] repaired. Contact me off-list if you're interested & I'll dig it out of the ] back room and check it out again. ] ] Regards, ] ] Glen Goodwin ] 0/0 From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Sun Oct 3 18:25:40 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: AT&T PC 6300 Plus Unix box Message-ID: <199910032325.TAA04534@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> Thanks Russ, that website looks like it might be useful! What makes you think it is a 6286EL? I know next to nothing about these AT&T boxes, so I never would have guessed anything besides what it says on the label. Is it just because it's a 286 box? It quite definitely says "6300 PLUS" on the machine itself and on all of the floppies that I got with it. Cheers, Bill. On Thu, 30 Sep 1999, Russ Blakeman wrote: ] The AT&T setup files (in case anyone needs them) are located for download at ] http://www3.ncr.com/support/pc/pcdesc/library/63xx.shtml ] ] Me thinks he might have a 6286EL ] ] ... From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Sun Oct 3 18:41:05 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: AT&T PC 6300 Plus Unix box Message-ID: <199910032341.TAA04590@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> Thanks Bill, I don't remember seeing DIP switches, but then I wasn't looking for them either. I'll try digging info out of the NCR website that Russ pointed out, and hope it tells me which switch is which. Gosh, the machine on which the Korn shell was developed! Almost historic, aint it? Hope I can get it to go. Wonder if ksh is actually installed on it? :-) Cheers, Bill. On Thu, 30 Sep 1999, Bill Pechter wrote: ] > The AT&T setup files (in case anyone needs them) are located for download at ] > http://www3.ncr.com/support/pc/pcdesc/library/63xx.shtml ] > ] > Me thinks he might have a 6286EL ] ] Sounds like a 6300+ to me... there was NO setup disk. Just dip switches ] like on the 6300's and XT's. There are no IBM AT compatible slots. ] Just Olivetti designed 16 bitters (this thing was designed before the ] AT Standard.) ] ] ... and then, a few minutes later: ] > Does this box have a BIOS setup program onboard or must you use a ] > configuration disk? (if so do you have the disk?) ] ] Nope. No NVRAM either. Just a bunch of dip switches like an XT. ] Check the NCR web site for info. ] ] I had a 6300 and always wanted a 6300+. BTW, the story I heard is ] David Korn wrote the Korn Shell on a 6300+ for System V. ] ] It was used at AT&T as a single user development box for a while ] until the workstations began to appear as AT&T's Bell Labs moved from ] Vaxes and 3b's with BLIT's and 630 terminals to 7300's and later ] to Sun Workstations. ] ] ... ] ] Bill ] --- ] bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org ] Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, ] The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Sun Oct 3 19:12:43 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: Floppy disks again Message-ID: <199910040012.UAA04682@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> Hey, with the discussion of diskettes recently, and my own search for info on RX50's, I was a little surprised by the lack of available info on single-sided single-density 5.25" floppy disks (emphasis on SD). Were they ever actually manufactured, or was SS/SD strictly an 8" thing? I seem to remember seeing SS/SD 5.25" way back when. Can anybody give me an authoritative rating of their coercivity? Were they 300 Oerstedts, just like DD? If so, what is it that made them single density? Something about the size of the individual magnetic domains maybe? Or were exactly the same diskettes called "double density" when we figured out how to make drives to handle that? Also, my web search lead me to conclude that a 360K DS/DD floppy should probably work okay as an RX50; the only difference seems to be the number of tracks per inch. But they write many times more bits per inch along a track (maybe over 3000bpi?) than they do tracks per inch (48 vs. 96), so the media itself must have high enough resolution. Are the magnetic domains long and narrow and aligned radially? Or is there some other reason that it gets less resolution radially (tracks per inch) than longitudinally (bits per inch along a track)? If the precision of the drive is the only limiting factor, then DS/DD should work perfectly fine as RX50s. Clues are welcome. Cheers, Bill. From wdg3rd at home.com Sun Oct 3 15:26:35 1999 From: wdg3rd at home.com (Ward Griffiths) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: AT&T PC 6300 Plus Unix box References: <199910032302.TAA04424@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <37F7BBFB.DAA4F8A@home.com> Bill Yakowenko wrote: > > On 29 Sep 1999, somebody who should know better wrote: > ] > Yesterday I scooped an AT&T PC 6300 Unix machine on its way > ] > ] It's not a Unix machine. (Or, at least, not a very good one.) > ] Perhaps you're thinking of the 7300? > > Well, its former owner called it a 6300 Unix machine, its cover > has "6300 PLUS" printed on it in nice big letters, and the > floppies that I got with it have preprinted labels like this: > > AT&T > Unix(R) System V Release 2.0 > AT&T Personal Computer > 6300 PLUS > > What do you think? Is it a 6300 PLUS? Is it a Unix machine? Yes, it's a 6300+. And yes, it's a Unix machine. > Maybe it isn't a very good Unix machine. Still, I'd like to get > it to boot and come to my own conclusions. Help is welcome. For the time., it was possibly the best Unix PC (emphasis on PC) around. SCO Xenix on the AT was unstable at best. There was no really stable Unix on the x86 series until things were recompiled for the 80386. (Despite the name, the "Unix PC", the 7300/3B1 series, was never priced as a personal computer nor did it have an Intel cpu). I'm welcome to contrary opinions about the viability of Unix in pre-'386 Intel. I got into Unix on the 68000 before Apple produced the Lisa, courtesy of working for Radio Shack. T'was Xenix, the first/last/only Microsoft OS I liked. Of course, Microsoft never made an end-user package. > > Remember people, this is an "oldies" list. If some machine here > isn't fast/good/new enough for you, maybe you accidentally > subscribed to the wrong list? Please try to contain the knee-jerk > put-downs. Knee-jerk put-downers don't last long on this list. Those of us inclined (like me on 6502 systems) wind up leaving, laying off, or learning something. -- Ward Griffiths wdg3rd@home.com WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From wdg3rd at home.com Sun Oct 3 15:45:59 1999 From: wdg3rd at home.com (Ward Griffiths) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: AT&T PC 6300 Plus Unix box References: <199910032341.TAA04590@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <37F7C087.C2114D5E@home.com> Bill Yakowenko wrote: > > Thanks Bill, > > I don't remember seeing DIP switches, but then I wasn't looking > for them either. I'll try digging info out of the NCR website > that Russ pointed out, and hope it tells me which switch is which. Doubt NCR has the data, though you never know. The machine was built by Olivetti five or so years before AT&T bought NCR, and I think they'd cut loose from Olivetti long before, considering that their PCs were built by Intel from 1991 or so. > > Gosh, the machine on which the Korn shell was developed! Almost > historic, aint it? Hope I can get it to go. Wonder if ksh is > actually installed on it? :-) Doubt it. Though I know that ksh was available on SysV/386, I know of no updates to the 6300+. Well, it was available from the Usenet and I think some AT&T hosts unofficially, just as it was for the 7300/3B1 series. (None of the former hosts that used to semi-officially support the 6300 or 7300 Unix platforms exists any longer. I know hosts maintaining 7300/3B1 archives, I am unaware of any for the 6300+ -- a query on comp.sys.att might produce something, maybe even one on comp.sys.3b1 [though that's not very active anymore, and there used to be a large contingent of folks who hated the existence of Intel PCs even when they used their DOS/73 cards]). -- Ward Griffiths wdg3rd@home.com WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 3 19:44:34 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: A1 still in business! References: Message-ID: <99100320452003.07014@vault.neurotica.com> On Sat, 02 Oct 1999, Doug Spence wrote: >Most of the stacks are off-limits to customers, but I did find a >NeXTStation in the public area. I didn't take it because I don't think >it can do anything on its own. :) I asked if they had a Cube, but they >didn't. NeXTStations can indeed run standalone...just like cubes...they just don't have expansion slots. -Dave McGuire From wdg3rd at home.com Sun Oct 3 15:56:03 1999 From: wdg3rd at home.com (Ward Griffiths) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: Floppy disks again References: <199910040012.UAA04682@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: <37F7C2E3.D2C55AD7@home.com> Bill Yakowenko wrote: > > Hey, with the discussion of diskettes recently, and my own > search for info on RX50's, I was a little surprised by the > lack of available info on single-sided single-density 5.25" > floppy disks (emphasis on SD). Were they ever actually > manufactured, or was SS/SD strictly an 8" thing? I seem to > remember seeing SS/SD 5.25" way back when. Can anybody > give me an authoritative rating of their coercivity? Were > they 300 Oerstedts, just like DD? If so, what is it that > made them single density? Something about the size of the > individual magnetic domains maybe? Or were exactly the same > diskettes called "double density" when we figured out how > to make drives to handle that? Farzino, the Oersted value of SSSD (90k), DSSD (180k), SSDD (180k) and DSDD (360k) 5.25" diskettes was the same. For that matter, it was the same with QD (720k) diskettes. Manufacturers "tested" and rated the media for different densities, and I know that some disks that worked fine as SSSD failed miserable in the Tandy 2000 (720k) while others worked just peachy. I don't know of any failures involving using a higher-rated floppy in a lower drive except when the media had been previously used in a 720k drive. When you get to the official HD, 1.2Mb media, the situation changes. -- Ward Griffiths wdg3rd@home.com WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 3 19:41:50 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: AT&T PC 6300 Plus Unix box In-Reply-To: <37F7BBFB.DAA4F8A@home.com> from "Ward Griffiths" at Oct 3, 99 04:26:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1323 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991004/3dda8b4d/attachment.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Oct 3 20:15:29 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: Floppy disks again In-Reply-To: <199910040012.UAA04682@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: >Also, my web search lead me to conclude that a 360K DS/DD >floppy should probably work okay as an RX50; the only > >Clues are welcome. > > Cheers, > Bill. I use 5.25" DSDD floppies formated using 'putr' (at least I think it's 'putr', been a while) on a PC with a 1.2Mb floppy drive. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Sun Oct 3 21:16:54 1999 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: Wanted: MicroBee computer Message-ID: <003d01bf0e0e$89174d80$7d3ec018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> I'm confused. I thought they were the same. What do you mean by Beehive? If this is related to the Beehive section of the Walnut Creek CDRom, then I see the file \beehive\text\member.txt has an Australian address in it. "Australian" Microbees are quite common here (because I'm in Sydney !) but not in going condition. The consoles are easy but the power supply, disk drives and software are difficult, probably because many were in schools where they were networked. All I've seen were CP/M. I've never seen one with basic but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Hans -----Original Message----- From: Don Maslin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, 4 October 1999 8:35 Subject: Re: Wanted: MicroBee computer > > >On Sun, 3 Oct 1999, Roberto Waltman wrote: > >> I would like to buy a MicroBee machine, preferably >> one running CP/M, but one of the earlier/smaller >> BASIC ROM based models would be considered >> also. >> >> Roberto Waltman >> rwaltman@bellatlantic.net >> > >Don't forget that there are U.S. Microbees (Beehive) and Australian >Microbees. I think (?) they are related in name only. > > - don > > From at258 at osfn.org Sun Oct 3 22:10:53 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: AT&T PC 6300 Plus Unix box In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Haddock claims the 6300+ was introduced in October, 1985. It's supposed to be a 286 machine. I hadn't been aware that it was Unix capable. I suppose I should dig into the stacks and find our carcass. Still, i think I'd rather a 7300, if I could get a set of disks. From wpfulmor at dimensional.com Sun Oct 3 23:12:01 1999 From: wpfulmor at dimensional.com (William Fulmor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: AT&T PC 6300 Plus Unix box In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Oct 1999, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > > Haddock claims the 6300+ was introduced in October, 1985. It's supposed > to be a 286 machine. > > I hadn't been aware that it was Unix capable. I suppose I should dig > into the stacks and find our carcass. Still, i think I'd rather a 7300, > if I could get a set of disks. What disks do you need? Bill From donm at cts.com Mon Oct 4 00:18:36 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: Wanted: MicroBee computer In-Reply-To: <003d01bf0e0e$89174d80$7d3ec018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Oct 1999, Olminkhof wrote: > I'm confused. I thought they were the same. > What do you mean by Beehive? If this is related to the Beehive section of > the Walnut Creek CDRom, then I see the file \beehive\text\member.txt has an > Australian address in it. I have never seen either machine that I can recall. It may be that I am blinded by the name "Beehive" who built terminals way back when - one of which was named the Microbee. Also, the fact that MicroSolutions Uniform lists a Beehive Microbee and also a Microbee and that Sydex 22Disk lists a Beehive Microbee whose disk definitions do not match the formats for the Microbee by Applied Technology has lead me to surmise that there were two separate machines. My reasoning was that Beehive had added some smarts and disk capability to their machine, and that the Australian machine was developed separately. - don > "Australian" Microbees are quite common here (because I'm in Sydney !) but > not in going condition. The consoles are easy but the power supply, disk > drives and software are difficult, probably because many were in schools > where they were networked. All I've seen were CP/M. I've never seen one with > basic but that doesn't mean they don't exist. > > Hans > > -----Original Message----- > From: Don Maslin > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Monday, 4 October 1999 8:35 > Subject: Re: Wanted: MicroBee computer > > > > > > > >On Sun, 3 Oct 1999, Roberto Waltman wrote: > > > >> I would like to buy a MicroBee machine, preferably > >> one running CP/M, but one of the earlier/smaller > >> BASIC ROM based models would be considered > >> also. > >> > >> Roberto Waltman > >> rwaltman@bellatlantic.net > >> > > > >Don't forget that there are U.S. Microbees (Beehive) and Australian > >Microbees. I think (?) they are related in name only. > > > > - don > > > > > > From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Oct 4 00:37:28 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: Heathkit H-11 restoration questions Message-ID: <19991004053728.2722.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> While most of Y'all were at the VCF, I decided to spend my time in similar activities and dusted off two projects I've been tripping over for weeks: my two ASR-33's (more on them in another posting) and a Heathkit H-11 that I rescued from a former employer a few years ago. The H-11 was pretty goobered up from the previous owner. He soldered wires right on the DLV11-J connectors, for example. He also cobbled up his own CD slots for an RLV11 by extending the case out another 4 inches and wrapping two pairs of Heathkit Q-bus sockets together. It was gross. I have the case back together (except for the top, which he lost) and have been working on the cards. I discovered in my piles of CPUs that I have two M8189 "PDP-11/23plus" boards with different ROM revisions. One has the numbers "SG8335 339E2" and "SG8335 340E2" on them and behaves like the description in the handbook. The other board is populated with "LM8451 183E4" and "LM8451 184E4" and comes up with a much more interesting banner. It claims to be Rev 0.9 of a ROM set for the 11/23plus, and after verbosely testing memory, tries to boot DU3. You have the option of retesting memory, dumping a memory and I/O map or of booting from several devices including tape, network and several flavors of disk. This brings me to my next problem... The Heathkit floppy controller is labelled "H27" on the white handle with a silk-screened part number of 85-2183-1. If I put it next in the grant chain, the 11/23plus hangs. If I put it at the end of the bus, the 11/23plus tests and lets me try to boot from it. I have the cover off the floppy case and I can see the heads load and boot. They drop to track 0, move around, read in a few tracks, then unload and the CPU never prints out another thing. I suspect that something to do with DMA or interrupts is hanging the CPU once RT-11 loads into memory. I did pull all the chips (100% socketed) and test them one at a time. Some failed on the first go, but passed after wiggling, telling me that there is some oxidation on the leads. I pulled and reseated everything and will try this thing again when I get back out to where the H-11 is. In the meantime, I am wondering if the H-11 floppy box is pin compatible with an RXV11. I happen to have one here, but I don't want to fry something if they are not compatible. BTW, there are three jumpers on the H27 - E1, E2 and E3. The card passed into my hands with E1 and E2 strapped, but not E3. Finally, eventually, I want to get original stuff back into this box. I have the DLV11 console board that came with this, I'm just not using it. In addition to the H27 floppy card, I have a Heathkit lineprinter card (unassembled) and a wad of Q-bus CPUs from the LSI-11 up to the 11/23plus (nothing newer, unfortunately). So the question is, what "belongs" in this box. Did it come with an 11/03 "LSI-11" CPU? An 11/23 F-11 board? What did the H-11 use for boot roms? A BDV-11? An MXV-11? A Heathkit board? Thanks, -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Oct 4 02:41:38 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: Floppy disks again In-Reply-To: Ward Griffiths "Re: Floppy disks again" (Oct 3, 16:56) References: <199910040012.UAA04682@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> <37F7C2E3.D2C55AD7@home.com> Message-ID: <9910040841.ZM2408@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 3, 16:56, Ward Griffiths wrote: > Subject: Re: Floppy disks again > Bill Yakowenko wrote: > > > > Hey, with the discussion of diskettes recently, and my own > > search for info on RX50's, I was a little surprised by the > > lack of available info on single-sided single-density 5.25" > > floppy disks (emphasis on SD). Were they ever actually > > manufactured, or was SS/SD strictly an 8" thing? I seem to > > remember seeing SS/SD 5.25" way back when. Can anybody > > give me an authoritative rating of their coercivity? Were > > they 300 Oerstedts, just like DD? If so, what is it that > > made them single density? Something about the size of the > > individual magnetic domains maybe? Or were exactly the same > > diskettes called "double density" when we figured out how > > to make drives to handle that? > > Farzino, the Oersted value of SSSD (90k), DSSD (180k), SSDD (180k) > and DSDD (360k) 5.25" diskettes was the same. Those figures for capacity only apply to 40-track disks formatted with 9 sectors per track (IBM PC style). There are lots of other formats for 40-track disks, and of course there are also 35-track and 80-track drives. > For that matter, it > was the same with QD (720k) diskettes. QD is a misnomer, it really means DSDD 80-track, and the figure of 720K relates to 9 sectors per track, 512 bytes per sector. Ignoring unusual techniques, such as GCR recording, as used by Apple and Commodore, there are two possibilities for density in conventional floppy disk systems. Single Density uses FM recording, and Double Density uses MFM. They use the same number of magnetic reversals per track, but differ in the way they include clock pulses, so MFM ends up with twice as many data bits per track. Then there are two possibilities fro number of heads, 1 or 2. Finally, the number and size of sectors can be varied. IBM happened to use 9 sectors per track (8 on early systems, hence the existence of 320K disks as well as 360K) with 512 bytes per sector, MFM. Other manufacturers did not always use the same layout. Hence Acorn disks were usually 100K, 200K, 400K, or 800K (800K being 1024 bytes per sector, 5 s.p.t, MFM, double-sided). RX50 is MFM single-sided 80-track, 512 bytes per sector, 10 sectors per track, giving 400K per disk. > Manufacturers "tested" and > rated the media for different densities, and I know that some disks > that worked fine as SSSD failed miserable in the Tandy 2000 (720k) > while others worked just peachy. I don't know of any failures > involving using a higher-rated floppy in a lower drive except when > the media had been previously used in a 720k drive. That's not a density issue, merely a question of the width of the track written by an 80-track drive as opposed to a 40-track drive. > When you get > to the official HD, 1.2Mb media, the situation changes. That's right, the coercivity is different. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 4 03:43:29 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: DEC GT40 original list price? In-Reply-To: <199910032117.RAA23082@world.std.com> (message from Megan on Sun, 3 Oct 1999 17:17:59 -0400 (EDT)) References: <199910032117.RAA23082@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19991004084329.11930.qmail@brouhaha.com> Megan wrote about GT40 Moonlander: > The version I have is the one I obtained back in 1975 or so... one > that Jack and I worked on when I was a student at WPI and he was > visiting the college for some reason... The ME department had a > GT44 (11/40 based system with a VT11 and VR14) and we did some work > on it to fix some intensity problems with the thrust and directional > control bars as well as getting it to work with a programmable clock. Is it intentional that the minimum thrust setting is 10%? After the game ran correctly for about six hours, it lost the thrust indicator (the little horizontal line with a two-digit percentage right next to the thrust control bar). It was still possible to control the thrust. After another half hour, the display stopped working entirely, although from the keyboard beeping on crashes, it was obvious that the game was still running. I surmise that the display list was getting corrupted. Since my GT40 does not have the standard GT40 boot ROMs, it takes me a long time to toggle in a reassembled version of the standard ROMs, reorigined to run at 037000, and then load the program. I was annoyed to find that Moonlander overwrites the memory from 037000 to 037777, so I guess that wasn't the best choice on my part. If I'd had time to do it, it would have made sense to ask someone for a copy of the RIM loader and a description of RIM format, and use that instead, since it would require much less time to toggle in, and be less error prone. I suppose that I should mention that Mike Cheponis and I won the VCF First Place award in the Minicomputer category for our GT40 exhibit. It was rumored that Jack Burness might attend the VCF, but AFAIK he didn't. Cheers, Eric From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Mon Oct 4 05:07:19 1999 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: AT&T PC 6300 Plus Unix box Message-ID: >> When is 'for the time'? Torch (in the UK) released the XXX not that much >> later (1984?). That was a _strange_ machine -- it ran unix (well, >> uniplus+), and had a machintosh-like frontend. Hmm, are Torch still in business? They used to be my local parts supplier of of PC (Intel ;-) bits until a few years ago, and I distinctly remember a pile of XXX systems that used to sit in the corner of their workshop area - they may still be there for the taking if Torch themselves are still around... cheers Jules From at258 at osfn.org Mon Oct 4 06:37:59 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: AT&T PC 6300 Plus Unix box In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Unix installation set. I forgot how many, but there are a LOT. 12+. On Sun, 3 Oct 1999, William Fulmor wrote: > On Sun, 3 Oct 1999, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > > > > > Haddock claims the 6300+ was introduced in October, 1985. It's supposed > > to be a 286 machine. > > > > I hadn't been aware that it was Unix capable. I suppose I should dig > > into the stacks and find our carcass. Still, i think I'd rather a 7300, > > if I could get a set of disks. > > What disks do you need? > > Bill > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From wdg3rd at home.com Mon Oct 4 03:24:04 1999 From: wdg3rd at home.com (Ward Griffiths) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: AT&T PC 6300 Plus Unix box References: Message-ID: <37F86423.7162D572@home.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > For the time., it was possibly the best Unix PC (emphasis on PC) > > around. SCO Xenix on the AT was unstable at best. There was no > > really stable Unix on the x86 series until things were recompiled > > for the 80386. (Despite the name, the "Unix PC", the 7300/3B1 > > series, was never priced as a personal computer nor did it have an > > Intel cpu). I'm welcome to contrary opinions about the viability > > Since when (either on this list, or 'back then') has 'personal computer' > implied an Intel CPU. Sorry, Tony. I've been inactive here for a fair while, not even reading much of the list for months on end (though I received the whole lot and they're archived awaiting "copious spare time"). I was using the term "PC" as it was more or less used at the time. > I think you could justify calling the TRS-80 model 16 a 'personal > computer' and as you say below, it ran Xenix. I had two Model 16s at the time, both personal and beloved to me until the electric company murdered them and I replaced them with a by-then-discontinued 3B1. The machines were scrapped due to my ignorance and my then-wife's opinion that they were impossible to salvage (she was the hardware person in the marriage, a field engineer by profession). My current Tandy 6000 can't find its hard drive and my present wife wants me to toss it, but she's just a registered nurse with no expertise on silicon-based life forms. > When is 'for the time'? Torch (in the UK) released the XXX not that much > later (1984?). That was a _strange_ machine -- it ran unix (well, > uniplus+), and had a machintosh-like frontend. But if you pointed and > clicked in the right place you got a real shell. The display was colour > and sort-of EGA resolution. Hardware was a 68010 (or 68020 with a > kludgeboard) CPU, 1Mbyte RAM (expandable with a daughterboard XOR VME > cards), 3 serial ports (at least one of which could do X25), optional > ethernet, etc. It also came with the most insulting set of manuals I have > ever seen for a workstation :-(. I remember reading about those in Unix Review and Unix World. I wanted one but the price was prohibitive. Were the manuals as insulting as those for the AT&T 7300? That'd be a stretch. > Don't get me started on the joys of jumpstarting one of these toys when > the battery goes flat ;-) Well, I've really got to open my 7300s and replace their batteries. Been dead for several years. Yes, I've got the instructions on replacing the NiCad with a clip for a couple of D cells. (As well as the instructions for replacing the single hard drives with pairs of larger capacity). -- Ward Griffiths wdg3rd@home.com WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 4 07:50:05 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: Heathkit H-11 restoration questions In-Reply-To: <19991004053728.2722.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > with a much more interesting banner. It claims to be Rev 0.9 of a ROM set > for the 11/23plus, and after verbosely testing memory, tries to boot DU3. The M8189 was available as two basic versions 11/23 and the plus. The primary difference was what it could boot. > In the meantime, I am wondering if the H-11 floppy box is pin compatible with > an RXV11. I happen to have one here, but I don't want to fry something if RXV11 is only compatable with the DEC RX01. The H11 Floppy used a Heath interface. If you use the heath floppy with RXV11 nothing happens. > they are not compatible. BTW, there are three jumpers on the H27 - E1, E2 > and E3. The card passed into my hands with E1 and E2 strapped, but not E3. Get manuals for it! you'll save pain. > Finally, eventually, I want to get original stuff back into this box. I have > the DLV11 console board that came with this, I'm just not using it. In > addition The original was DLV11 compatable but it was HEATH design, not as durable. > to the H27 floppy card, I have a Heathkit lineprinter card (unassembled) and > a wad of Q-bus CPUs from the LSI-11 up to the 11/23plus (nothing newer, > unfortunately). So the question is, what "belongs" in this box. Did it come > with an 11/03 "LSI-11" CPU? An 11/23 F-11 board? What did the H-11 use > for boot roms? A BDV-11? An MXV-11? A Heathkit board? The H11: DEC M7294 11/03 (Quad width card with 4k ram on board) This was the ONLY dec made card in it. Heath Memory, several version were available 4k early, 16k later. HEath serial cards (DLV11 compatable) Minimum of one for console, usually two. Heath printercard Not always, most people used LA34 printer/terminal, and that was a serial interface. Heath Punch/reader card Only there if you used their rather cranky punch reader. Heath floppy controller/interface card. The last one is interesting ans the heath disk <8"> used a z80 in the floppy box to do the lowlevel disk interface and the ribbon went back a simple interface that was mostly a parallel card. It was RX01 compatable in one mode and had a HEATH specific mode. The drives were known for clamps that died with age and heat load pads that fell off. It could do one thing a RX01 could not, low level format a blank disk. At some point I plan to assemble a H11 system. I have 11/03 cpu, RAM, serial cards and backplane from one. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 4 08:03:02 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: Floppy disks again In-Reply-To: <9910040841.ZM2408@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: > > > Hey, with the discussion of diskettes recently, and my own > > > search for info on RX50's, I was a little surprised by the > > > lack of available info on single-sided single-density 5.25" RX50 is single sided double density 5.25 using common media used for other 5.25 drives. It was a 96tpi drive, 400kb. DEC formatted that media 10 512 byte sectors per track and a 1793 FDC a must to recreate that format reliably. > QD is a misnomer, it really means DSDD 80-track, and the figure of 720K > relates to 9 sectors per track, 512 bytes per sector. QD was 96tpi TWO SIDED. There were two formats, 720k and 780k. > Finally, the number and size of sectors can be varied. IBM happened to use > 9 sectors per track (8 on early systems, hence the existence of 320K disks > as well as 360K) with 512 bytes per sector, MFM. Other manufacturers did This is PCism. CPM systems used 256/512/1024 byts sector and different sectors per track with 10x512, 9x512, 16x256, 18x256, and 5x1024 being some of the more common for DD (MFM) modes. > > that worked fine as SSSD failed miserable in the Tandy 2000 (720k) > > while others worked just peachy. I don't know of any failures This was usually cleaned up by bulk erasing the media. There were three basic soft sector medias, 35track (small window for head), 40 track (larger window) and the 600o 1.2mb. Obviously there were flavors of single and two side good media. Most large window was two sides good and worked in everything save for the odd 1.2mb drives. Now... how the floppy controlers were programmed tended to make or break systems. The PC controllers are all 765 based and will not always do some of the odder formats well (or at all!). Allison From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Mon Oct 4 08:53:24 1999 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: Floppy disks again Message-ID: <80256800.004BEDE4.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> >> QD is a misnomer, it really means DSDD 80-track, and the figure of 720K >> relates to 9 sectors per track, 512 bytes per sector. > > QD was 96tpi TWO SIDED. There were two formats, 720k and 780k. Come on, Allison, read the message before hitting the shift key. He said two sided (embedded in the word "DSDD"). Some (Wabash?) QD disks I saw were labelled "96/100 tpi 77/80 track" or words to that effect. As for the two sided bit, try telling that to a Commodore 8050! This drive got 500k onto one side of a QD disk and ignored the other completely. I forget the format, but the number of sectors increased towards the outside edge of the disk... > There were three basic soft sector medias, 35track (small window for > head), 40 track (larger window) and the 600o 1.2mb. Obviously there were > flavors of single and two side good media. Most large window was two > sides good and worked in everything save for the odd 1.2mb drives. Eh? What about QD? Which was that? It wasn't 35 or 40 track, but 77 or 80. Given the Wabash label quoted above, can you confirm absolutely that the number of tracks was a variation in head window? Philip. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. Power Technology Centre, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, Nottingham, NG11 0EE, UK Tel: +44 (0)115 936 2000 http://www.powertech.co.uk ********************************************************************** From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 4 10:34:44 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: Floppy disks again In-Reply-To: <80256800.004BEDE4.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Message-ID: > Come on, Allison, read the message before hitting the shift key. He said two Shift in pine is next page. > sided (embedded in the word "DSDD"). Some (Wabash?) QD disks I saw were > labelled "96/100 tpi 77/80 track" or words to that effect. QD was used to imply a lot of mostly marketing hype. In general it was simple twosided media that was cetrified for both surfaces good. What the floppy controller did to put stuff on it was an entirely different matter. > Eh? What about QD? Which was that? It wasn't 35 or 40 track, but 77 or 80. > Given the Wabash label quoted above, can you confirm absolutely that the number > of tracks was a variation in head window? The window size was older media when did drives didn't ahve more than 35 tracks. LAter drives that had 40 tracks needed a longer window or the head would hit it. Had nothing to do with QD as that was more tracks fitted to the same recoring area as 40 track (the 100 tpi were very close). Part of all the confusion is there is a limited set of medias and a broader set of drives (35tr, 40tr, 96tr, one sided and two sided) and then there were the FD controllers and their capabilities plus what the software could drive them too. Now if we take one media, standard 300o 5.25 twosided 96/100tpi certifed we are now talking about litterally hundreds of formats most of which are incompatable not by any reason of media. Allison From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Oct 4 11:45:06 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: Floppy disks again Message-ID: <991004124506.202002f3@trailing-edge.com> >Now if we take one media, standard 300o 5.25 twosided 96/100tpi certifed >we are now talking about litterally hundreds of formats most of which are >incompatable not by any reason of media. That's why I stick to IBM 3740 (8", 77 track, 26 sectors/track, 128 bytes/sec) format - guaranteed cross-platform compatibility! I can still read my floppies from 1973 just fine... All "real" machines have 8" floppies and at least one 9-track drive here! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Oct 4 11:45:30 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: Heathkit H-11 restoration questions Message-ID: <19991004164530.17261.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> --- allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > RXV11 is only compatable with the DEC RX01. The H11 Floppy used a Heath > interface. If you use the heath floppy with RXV11 nothing happens. OK. I'll go back to the card and get it working. Worst case, I'll pull all the sockets and solder in machine-pin ones. I'd rather not; it's lots of work. I observed substantial oxidation of the plating on the ICs I did remove and test (I can't test DEC bus chips with my IC tester, only CMOS, TTL and DRAM). > Get manuals for it! you'll save pain. Any pointers on where to lay hands on H-11 docs? > > Finally, eventually, I want to get original stuff back into this box. > The original was DLV11 compatable but it was HEATH design, not as durable. It looks dodgy, but then most of the Heath stuff looks less solid to me. > The H11: > > DEC M7294 11/03 (Quad width card with 4k ram on board) Got it. > This was the ONLY dec made card in it. > > Heath Memory, several version were available 4k early, 16k later. Don't got it. I have several 32Kw and 128Kw boards from 11/23s, etc., and a few 4kW and 16kW boards from my LSI-11s (knee-high formica-topped rolly DEC cabs w/RX01 and 11/03 inside). > Heath floppy controller/interface card. > > The last one is interesting as the heath disk <8"> used a z80 in the > floppy box to do the low-level disk interface and the ribbon went back > a simple interface that was mostly a parallel card. The card itself is about as simple as any Qbus card. It is, I take it, supposed to be nominally RXV11 compatible from a driver standpoint, yes? If not, then that's part of my problem. I do boot, the disks to appear to read in an OS, then the system hangs, but that could be as a result of my card only working if it is *not* at the end of an unbroken grant chain (with a gap in the bus, the disks read but the system does not boot; without a gap in the bus, the CPU does not even bring up the boot message). > It was RX01 compatable in one mode and had a HEATH specific mode. Software or hardware selected? > The drives were known for clamps that died with age and heat load pads that > fell off. So far, the only problem I appear to have is that the belt on DX1 has either broken or fallen off. The motor is turning, but not the hub. I haven't pulled the drive to check yet. On the bright side, the mechanisms appear to have a 50-pin edge connector, suggesting that they are standard from that standpoint. I expect that the hub motors are either 110V or 24V. > It could do one thing a RX01 could not, low level format a blank disk. I did spot the obvious format switch on the front of the disk unit, but no idea how to use it. I now wish that I'd picked up a couple more boxes of media from a friend's business about eight years ago. He had a pallet of 8" disks that he was selling for more money that I was willing to pay. Eventually, he gave me a case - my choice. I grabbed a 24" long box full of pre-formatted disks, the only one on the pile. When he disposed of the remainder, I didn't make a trip out there to grab any boxes. :-( > At some point I plan to assemble a H11 system. I have 11/03 cpu, RAM, > serial cards and backplane from one. One of the gems I have in the Heath pile is an unassembled backplane. I don't know if all the connectors are there or not and I don't have a second case for it, but I've got at least part of one to "attract" the rest of it. -ethan > Allison ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Oct 4 12:03:24 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: Heathkit H-11 restoration questions Message-ID: <991004130324.202002f3@trailing-edge.com> >The card itself is about as simple as any Qbus card. It is, I take it, >supposed to be nominally RXV11 compatible from a driver standpoint, yes? >If not, then that's part of my problem. I do boot, the disks to appear to >read in an OS, then the system hangs, but that could be as a result of my >card only working if it is *not* at the end of an unbroken grant chain (with >a gap in the bus, the disks read but the system does not boot; without a gap >in the bus, the CPU does not even bring up the boot message). The RXV11 doesn't do DMA, and while booting it may not need interrupts. But after the OS is bootstrapped and is "going" it'll probably start looking for interrupts. The fact that the machine hangs solid when the card is where it's supposed to be may be a clue that the it's permanently stuck interrupting. Does the Heath machine at least have a "halt" button so you can get down to console ODT ("@" prompt) and do further debugging from there? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 4 12:04:19 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: Floppy disks again In-Reply-To: <991004124506.202002f3@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > That's why I stick to IBM 3740 (8", 77 track, 26 sectors/track, 128 bytes/sec) > format - guaranteed cross-platform compatibility! I can still read > my floppies from 1973 just fine... Yes, the default standard for CPM was SSSD (3740). It's also the default for my CPM crates and PDP-11s (using RX02, Andromeda, Plessy or Siemems controllers). The RX50 and RX33 were not prevelent enough though I can and do support them via RQDXn. > All "real" machines have 8" floppies and at least one 9-track drive here! ;) Tape however has never been part of the collection... though I'd live to add DECtape as I always had a fondness for the 4" reels. Allison From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Oct 4 12:09:20 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: 8-inch floppy availability Message-ID: <991004130920.202002f3@trailing-edge.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: >I did spot the obvious format switch on the front of the disk unit, but no >idea how to use it. I now wish that I'd picked up a couple more boxes of >media from a friend's business about eight years ago. He had a pallet of 8" >disks that he was selling for more money that I was willing to pay. >Eventually, >he gave me a case - my choice. I grabbed a 24" long box full of pre-formatted >disks, the only one on the pile. When he disposed of the remainder, I didn't >make a trip out there to grab any boxes. :-( What part of the world are you in, Ethan? Here in North America, new 8" floppies (preformatted, even) are readily available from a number of sources. Are you looking for small qty (less than 1000) or bulk (qty greater than 1000)? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 4 12:16:22 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: Heathkit H-11 restoration questions In-Reply-To: <19991004164530.17261.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > > RXV11 is only compatable with the DEC RX01. The H11 Floppy used a Heath > > interface. If you use the heath floppy with RXV11 nothing happens. By nothing happens I mean no harm, not useful. > OK. I'll go back to the card and get it working. Worst case, I'll pull > all the sockets and solder in machine-pin ones. I'd rather not; it's lots > of work. I observed substantial oxidation of the plating on the ICs I did > remove and test (I can't test DEC bus chips with my IC tester, only CMOS, > TTL and DRAM). It's unlikely there are bad chips. bad sockets however are teh bain of heathkits. Manuals try heathkit of whatever their name is now. > It looks dodgy, but then most of the Heath stuff looks less solid to me. It worked. But it was nowhere near as durable as the DEC cards. > Don't got it. I have several 32Kw and 128Kw boards from 11/23s, etc., and > a few 4kW and 16kW boards from my LSI-11s (knee-high formica-topped rolly > DEC cabs w/RX01 and 11/03 inside). Just about everyone upgraded to 11/23 and dec cards for performance reasons. > The card itself is about as simple as any Qbus card. It is, I take it, > supposed to be nominally RXV11 compatible from a driver standpoint, yes? Yes, RT11 DX (rxv11). The card relies on the heath drives being smartend with a z80 card in them. If you have the heath drives the hub clamps and pressure pads should be inspected. > If not, then that's part of my problem. I do boot, the disks to appear to > read in an OS, then the system hangs, but that could be as a result of my > card only working if it is *not* at the end of an unbroken grant chain (with > a gap in the bus, the disks read but the system does not boot; without a gap > in the bus, the CPU does not even bring up the boot message). That or not enough memeory or the console card at wrong address or RTC enabled. > So far, the only problem I appear to have is that the belt on DX1 has either > broken or fallen off. The motor is turning, but not the hub. I haven't > pulled the drive to check yet. On the bright side, the mechanisms appear to > have a 50-pin edge connector, suggesting that they are standard from that > standpoint. I expect that the hub motors are either 110V or 24V. Fairly standard, you might get other drives to work but jumper settings are not in my known info. > I did spot the obvious format switch on the front of the disk unit, but no > idea how to use it. I now wish that I'd picked up a couple more boxes of > media from a friend's business about eight years ago. He had a pallet of 8" > disks that he was selling for more money that I was willing to pay. The switch enabled formatting but you needed the heath format program if memory serves. > One of the gems I have in the Heath pile is an unassembled backplane. I don't > know if all the connectors are there or not and I don't have a second case > for it, but I've got at least part of one to "attract" the rest of it. ;) Mine is complete and I knew the original owner (and same for most of the boards). What I have has been following me for close to 18 years and are original from back 1979! FYI 11/03 cpu cards are common as house flies. Same for standard DLV11, and DEC memory, heath cards are scarce and often have socket problems or look like they were soldered with a torch. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 4 12:20:11 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: Heathkit H-11 restoration questions In-Reply-To: <991004130324.202002f3@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > The fact that the machine hangs solid when the card is where it's > supposed to be may be a clue that the it's permanently stuck interrupting. Depending on backplane the grant may not endup where you guess it is. My memory is fuzzy on this but I think Ht-11 (heath os) did not like RTC interrupt and would hang on that. > Does the Heath machine at least have a "halt" button so you can > get down to console ODT ("@" prompt) and do further debugging from there? Yes, also DLV11 or the heath serial card both should have HALT on BREAK enabled. Allison From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Oct 4 12:19:42 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: Heathkit H-11 restoration questions In-Reply-To: <19991004164530.17261.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991004100712.04172100@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Zane and Allison have been chatting, figured I'd chime in.... At 09:45 AM 10/4/99 -0700, Ethan Dicks wrote: >OK. I'll go back to the card and get it [floppy] working. This is ideal since the Heath Floppy drives can format RX01 media whereas the DEC drives will not. >> Get manuals for it! you'll save pain. >Any pointers on where to lay hands on H-11 docs? I've got some, contact me off list and we'll make some arrangement. >> The H11: >> >> DEC M7294 11/03 (Quad width card with 4k ram on board) > >Got it. The most common "upgrade" was to replace this card with a two card set of the 11/03 (M7270?) and the M8044-Dx 64KB card. I believe that without modification the Heath backplane is a _16 bit_ backplane. (as opposed to the default 18 bit on most LSI 11 machines). I know that I was unsuccessful getting anything other than the 11/03 cards running in it. >The card itself is about as simple as any Qbus card. It is, I take it, >supposed to be nominally RXV11 compatible from a driver standpoint, yes? From ToddJ at symresources.com Mon Oct 4 12:31:51 1999 From: ToddJ at symresources.com (Todd Jaspers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: Giving stuff away.... Message-ID: <81ABF6783ED5D111816E00A0C997EB9536640C@FTPSERVER1> Hi Everyone, my roommate and I are moving to a larger apartment and we have tons of computer junk and my girlfriend won't let me keep it at her house! I really have no use for it but I don't want it to go to waste if someone has a use for it. 1) MGA Matrox PCI graphics card. 1mb ram. pretty slow. 2) RampAT 16 bit card. Adds 4 SIMM slots to any computer with a 16 bit ISA card slow. Manual and instructions included. 3) various CGA and Monochrome 8-bit graphics cards. 4) various old 286 and AT mother boards IBM. 5) A whole bunch of old computer manuals. Please take the whole lot. 6) E-ISA Scsi controller 32-bit Everything is free, just pay for the shipping. Thanks!! Todd From lemay at cs.umn.edu Mon Oct 4 12:44:06 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: Ahh! Message-ID: <199910041744.RAA07288@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Holy gods of computing! I just spotted a PDP8/e system thats available! Its at times like this, that I really wish I had a working car... Ah well, I'll have to convince some local friends to help me out. I REALLY want a working PDP8/e... -Lawrence LeMay From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 4 12:56:54 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: Ahh! References: <199910041744.RAA07288@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <9910041358130R.07014@vault.neurotica.com> On Mon, 04 Oct 1999, Lawrence LeMay wrote: >Holy gods of computing! I just spotted a PDP8/e system thats available! > >Its at times like this, that I really wish I had a working car... Ah well, >I'll have to convince some local friends to help me out. I REALLY want >a working PDP8/e... Woohoo! Good luck getting it home, and be sure to let us all know what's in it and whether or not you can get it to come up & be sociable! -Dave McGuire From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 4 13:07:43 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: Heathkit H-11 restoration questions In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991004100712.04172100@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: > The most common "upgrade" was to replace this card with a two card set of > the 11/03 (M7270?) and the M8044-Dx 64KB card. Yes it was or in a later time frame m8186 (kdf11, 11/23) with m8044s. that workes better than 11/23+ (m8189) as it was a dual solution and the hath backplane was rather cramped. > know that I was unsuccessful getting anything other than the 11/03 cards > running in it. Other cpus have been run in it namely 11/2 and 11/23 (m8186). You need to jumper the a16-a21 lines for 18/Q22 and you cannot mix some of the old non-BBS7 selected IO. The 11/03 used a few of those lines for other purposes and mixing some of the older cards and newer ones could conflict. Allison From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Oct 4 13:18:00 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: Ahh! In-Reply-To: <199910041744.RAA07288@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <4.1.19991004111615.03b0a230@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Even now, rabid PDP-8 collectors are triangulating using message transimission time to narrow their search of your immediate vicinity :-) Congrats, let us all know what you get with it (and don't tell me a working DECTape drive or I'll turn lime green with envy! :-) --Chuck At 05:44 PM 10/4/99 +0000, Lawrence LeMay wrote: >Holy gods of computing! I just spotted a PDP8/e system thats available! > >Its at times like this, that I really wish I had a working car... Ah well, >I'll have to convince some local friends to help me out. I REALLY want >a working PDP8/e... > >-Lawrence LeMay From lemay at cs.umn.edu Mon Oct 4 13:26:08 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: Ahh! In-Reply-To: <9910041358130R.07014@vault.neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Oct 4, 1999 01:56:54 pm" Message-ID: <199910041826.SAA07375@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > On Mon, 04 Oct 1999, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > >Holy gods of computing! I just spotted a PDP8/e system thats available! > > > >Its at times like this, that I really wish I had a working car... Ah well, > >I'll have to convince some local friends to help me out. I REALLY want > >a working PDP8/e... > > Woohoo! Good luck getting it home, and be sure to let us all know what's in > it and whether or not you can get it to come up & be sociable! > > -Dave McGuire > This is the image that I spotted this morning, lets see what everyone thinks. I cant take all the stuff even in my dreams, unfortunately. But I'll see what it takes to get that cpu unit at the very least. http://www-users.cs.umn.edu/~lemay/elec10-1.jpg -Lawrence LeMay From lemay at cs.umn.edu Mon Oct 4 13:30:29 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: Ahh! In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991004111615.03b0a230@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from Chuck McManis at "Oct 4, 1999 11:18:00 am" Message-ID: <199910041830.SAA07390@thorin.cs.umn.edu> By now you're probably looking at what I saw... I dont recognize most of the stuff in those 2 racks, unfortunately. I suppose it wouldnt take John Keys much time at all to figure out where that jpg came from. -Lawrence LeMay > Even now, rabid PDP-8 collectors are triangulating using message > transimission time to narrow their search of your immediate vicinity :-) > > Congrats, let us all know what you get with it (and don't tell me a working > DECTape drive or I'll turn lime green with envy! :-) > > --Chuck > > At 05:44 PM 10/4/99 +0000, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > >Holy gods of computing! I just spotted a PDP8/e system thats available! > > > >Its at times like this, that I really wish I had a working car... Ah well, > >I'll have to convince some local friends to help me out. I REALLY want > >a working PDP8/e... > > > >-Lawrence LeMay > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 4 13:35:03 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:40 2005 Subject: Ahh! References: <199910041826.SAA07375@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <99100414361111.07014@vault.neurotica.com> On Mon, 04 Oct 1999, Lawrence LeMay wrote: >This is the image that I spotted this morning, lets see what everyone >thinks. I cant take all the stuff even in my dreams, unfortunately. But >I'll see what it takes to get that cpu unit at the very least. > > http://www-users.cs.umn.edu/~lemay/elec10-1.jpg Uhhhh...looks like TWO MORE pdp8 cpus in that left rack? Aren't those 8/a front panels; the ones that look like an 11/34 KY11-LB but mount on the top 5.25" of the chassis instead of the bottom? -Dave McGuire From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Oct 4 13:40:16 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: Ahh! Message-ID: <991004144016.202002f3@trailing-edge.com> >This is the image that I spotted this morning, lets see what everyone >thinks. I cant take all the stuff even in my dreams, unfortunately. But >I'll see what it takes to get that cpu unit at the very least. > > http://www-users.cs.umn.edu/~lemay/elec10-1.jpg Please, please, don't grab the CPU and let the disk drives rot. There are way too many folks on this list who've made that mistake in the past and now have a pretty box that they can't run an operating system on. The pictures are obviously very low-res, but here's my guess at what's there: The rack on the left looks to have an 11/04 or 11/34 on the top, an 8/E or 8/F below it, and it appears that there's another 11/04 or 11/34 below that. (I could be wrong about the 11/04 or /34 identification - they might be generic rack-mount boxes.) The rack on the right has 4 RL01's or RL02's in it. (The one on the top is a RL01, can't see any labels on the three below it.) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Oct 4 13:55:48 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: Ahh! In-Reply-To: <199910041826.SAA07375@thorin.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Oct 4, 99 01:26:08 pm Message-ID: <199910041855.LAA27420@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 395 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991004/a899f9ff/attachment.ksh From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Oct 4 14:04:56 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: 8-inch floppy availability Message-ID: <19991004190456.18042.rocketmail@web607.mail.yahoo.com> --- CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > >I did spot the obvious format switch on the front of the disk unit, but no > >idea how to use it. I now wish that I'd picked up a couple more boxes of > >media from a friend's business about eight years ago. > > What part of the world are you in, Ethan? For the moment, Ohio, but occasionally from various points in the Southern Hemisphere. > Here in North America, new 8" floppies (preformatted, even) are readily > available from a number of sources. I know they are available for enough money. I was lamenting the fact that I could have picked up a bootload for nothing and never had to buy another disk again. I have a case of formatted disks and several cases of used disks with data files from schools and at least one university lab that I can reformat and test. Mostly, I want to be able to extract the data *from* the floppies, not put more data *on* them. I hope to stuff an 8" drive from my DataRam Q22 box on an old 486 for data recovery, then back up my crate of PDP-8 and PDP-11 floppies. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 4 13:50:53 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: Floppy disks again In-Reply-To: (allisonp@world.std.com) References: Message-ID: <19991004185053.14849.qmail@brouhaha.com> Allison wrote: > The window size was older media when did drives didn't ahve more than 35 > tracks. LAter drives that had 40 tracks needed a longer window or the > head would hit it. Had nothing to do with QD as that was more tracks > fitted to the same recoring area as 40 track (the 100 tpi were very > close). I'm skeptical; in all the time I've bought 5.25 inch floppy diskettes (since 1976), I've NEVER seen one that had a shorter head window. I'd be willing to pay $20 for such a diskette for my collection. I've seen plenty of DRIVES that couldn't step past tracks 34-36, but that was a mechanical limitation of the drive. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Oct 4 14:12:17 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: Floppy disks again Message-ID: <991004151217.202002f3@trailing-edge.com> >I've seen plenty of DRIVES that couldn't step past tracks 34-36, but >that was a mechanical limitation of the drive. Actually, all SA390/400-type drives I've seen (which are nominally limited to 35 tracks) can step to a 36th track without any difficulties, and most can go to the 37th. The "36th track" trick was very common on Apple ]['s, both for copy protection and for general use. I've noticed that most decent data forensics tools (Anadisk, etc.) will go the the 81st track on a 80-track drive, though I've never seen a floppy that actually had data out there. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Oct 4 14:34:41 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: Heathkit H-11 restoration questions Message-ID: <19991004193441.14378.rocketmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> --- CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > The RXV11 doesn't do DMA, I didn't think so, but I wasn't sure. > and while booting it may not need interrupts. Typically not in my experience with 2BSD drivers. > The fact that the machine hangs solid when the card is where it's > supposed to be may be a clue that the it's permanently stuck interrupting. That's jibes with my hypothesis. > Does the Heath machine at least have a "halt" button so you can > get down to console ODT ("@" prompt) and do further debugging from there? Yes, but it's been years since I've ODTed. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From roblwill at usaor.net Mon Oct 4 17:36:38 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason ) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: AT&T PC3600 display problems Message-ID: <01bf0eb8$ecbace20$588ea6d1@compaq5300> I just got an old AT&T PC 3600, but the monitor won't power up (no display activity at all). There used to be a VGA commected to the computer through another card, but the card was removed. Is it a possibility that the main video card (with the 25 pin connector) was somehow disabled? If so, How do I re-enable it? It doesn't appear that power is getting to the monitor. ThAnX, -Jason ( general-1@home.com ) From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 4 14:47:09 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: Different diskette formats (was: Wanted: MicroBee computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm in a similar position to Don. As part of my XenoCopy work, I get hundreds of diskettes from computers that I have never seen. I have to rely on the names and/or descriptions provided by the people who send the diskettes. As such, I have received diskettes, (and implemented the diskette formats) labelled as being from "Beehive Topper" and from "Microworld Microbee", which are different formats. Occasionally there are fairly obvious mistakes and confusions in the machine names. For example, I will get people telling me that the computer is an "ADM3A, but the disk drive box is a Morrow" due to lack of understanding of even what the conmputer is. One time I got some hand labelled diskettes and misread the labels. I ended up briefly having a version of my program that purported to support Groupil (should have been Goupil) and INW (should have been LNW). The funny part was when two competitors also came out with Groupil and INW (either from contact with the same customer, or more likely from copying formats from my program). They also added in formats for two machines that were ONE-OFFs that never entered production, where I know the whereabouts of EVERY diskette, and which I had included in XenoCopy-PC for the convenience of the owner of the only existing units. BTW, Allison recently referred to "hundreds" of different formats. Our estimate is abour 2500! XenoCopy-PC currently supports 400. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 On Sun, 3 Oct 1999, Don Maslin wrote: > On Mon, 4 Oct 1999, Olminkhof wrote: > > > I'm confused. I thought they were the same. > > What do you mean by Beehive? If this is related to the Beehive section of > > the Walnut Creek CDRom, then I see the file \beehive\text\member.txt has an > > Australian address in it. > > I have never seen either machine that I can recall. It may be that I > am blinded by the name "Beehive" who built terminals way back when - > one of which was named the Microbee. Also, the fact that MicroSolutions > Uniform lists a Beehive Microbee and also a Microbee and that Sydex 22Disk > lists a Beehive Microbee whose disk definitions do not match the formats > for the Microbee by Applied Technology has lead me to surmise that there > were two separate machines. > > My reasoning was that Beehive had added some smarts and disk capability > to their machine, and that the Australian machine was developed > separately. > > - don > > > "Australian" Microbees are quite common here (because I'm in Sydney !) but > > not in going condition. The consoles are easy but the power supply, disk > > drives and software are difficult, probably because many were in schools > > where they were networked. All I've seen were CP/M. I've never seen one with > > basic but that doesn't mean they don't exist. > > > > Hans From roblwill at usaor.net Mon Oct 4 17:41:29 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason ) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: Important: email change: please read Message-ID: <01bf0eb9$99c92c60$588ea6d1@compaq5300> Hi! I just changed ISPs, because my previous one was unreliable. With the change of ISP's, the email that is currently subscribed to classiccmp will also be gone in about a month, if not less. I would like to know how to unsubscribe and resubscribe to classiccmp, to prevent the listserv screw-ups that would happen when the email address dissappears into oblivion. Thanx, -Jason ( general-1@home.com ) From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Oct 4 15:09:53 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: Heathkit H-11 restoration questions Message-ID: <19991004200953.950.rocketmail@web607.mail.yahoo.com> --- allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > The fact that the machine hangs solid when the card is where it's > > supposed to be may be a clue that the it's permanently stuck interrupting. > > Depending on backplane the grant may not end-up where you guess it is. I was assuming a sinusoidal AB-AB chain starting from the slots labelled "A" and "B" (out of A, B, C, and D). Now... the one twist is that the cards are installed with the CPU facing the bottom of the cage (solder side up), but the keys on the backplane connectors are a dead giveaway. > My memory is fuzzy on this but I think Ht-11 (heath os) did not like RTC > interrupt and would hang on that. Hmm... I don't have any HT-11 disks, only RT-11. But the LTC *was* enabled. > Yes, also DLV11 or the heath serial card both should have HALT on BREAK > enabled. I didn't even try that. For now, because of bootstrap considerations, I'm running with an 11/23plus CPU and a VT-220 (because it's close). Speaking of bootstraps, what did the H-11 come with stock? BDV-11? Custom Heath board? -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 4 15:16:12 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: Floppy disks again In-Reply-To: <19991004185053.14849.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > > I'm skeptical; in all the time I've bought 5.25 inch floppy diskettes > (since 1976), I've NEVER seen one that had a shorter head window. I'd > be willing to pay $20 for such a diskette for my collection. > I have em. Both 10 sector NS* format (no even for $20 I dont give them up) and also some of my TI99/4a likely others that I'd have bought around 78-79. Drive me nuts when I went to the 40 track SA400L. Kept getting errors beyond track 36! Turns out the media has a smaller window. > I've seen plenty of DRIVES that couldn't step past tracks 34-36, but > that was a mechanical limitation of the drive. I know, I still have the SA400 supplied with my MDS-A, a 35 track model and a lot of media from back then for the ICOM FDOS controller. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 4 15:19:50 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: Floppy disks again In-Reply-To: <991004151217.202002f3@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > Actually, all SA390/400-type drives I've seen (which are nominally limited > to 35 tracks) can step to a 36th track without any difficulties, and > most can go to the 37th. The "36th track" trick was very common on > Apple ]['s, both for copy protection and for general use. Was an early hack I used as it added another 5k of storage on those tight SSSD sa400s. > I've noticed that most decent data forensics tools (Anadisk, etc.) will > go the the 81st track on a 80-track drive, though I've never seen a > floppy that actually had data out there. I've tried it and it works on both 5.25 and even 3.5". One use I had was to put a duplicate directory there where it was not normally accessable except with a tool. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 4 12:53:31 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: Heathkit H-11 restoration questions In-Reply-To: <19991004053728.2722.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 3, 99 10:37:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 867 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991004/a39a8d50/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 4 13:07:20 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: AT&T PC 6300 Plus Unix box In-Reply-To: <37F86423.7162D572@home.com> from "Ward Griffiths" at Oct 4, 99 04:24:04 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3839 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991004/ca1112f8/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 4 15:30:07 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: Different diskette formats (was: Wanted: MicroBee computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > BTW, Allison recently referred to "hundreds" of different formats. Our > estimate is abour 2500! XenoCopy-PC currently supports 400. No arguement here. I was talking media, drive and physical format. Add OS and things like sectornumbering and skewing... gee, only 2500? ;) As a direct result of that there are very few 5.25 formats implmented in my room and I try to keep it to the bare minimum. I've gone as far as to modify systems for 3.5" drives and lock in on the more limited numbers of formats used there. The 5.25" market was both standard and nonportable at the same time and was a constant source of annoyance. Now if it's 5.25 it will be VT180, Visual1050, Kaypro 1/II, RX50, RX33 or I use only of many tools to copy down to native for that machine. Or at least the common ones in that pack. Even 8" is a pain as I have RX01 (good old SSSD), RX02 (weird DEC only), CCS SSDD/DSDD and to add insult compupro SSDD/DSDD which is not CCS compatable. I'm sure I have an ISIS SSDD (also oddball) around. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 4 15:35:00 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: Heathkit H-11 restoration questions In-Reply-To: <19991004200953.950.rocketmail@web607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I was assuming a sinusoidal AB-AB chain starting from the slots labelled > "A" and "B" (out of A, B, C, and D). Now... the one twist is that the cards > are installed with the CPU facing the bottom of the cage (solder side up), > but the keys on the backplane connectors are a dead giveaway. Heath backplane is serpentine AB only. > > Yes, also DLV11 or the heath serial card both should have HALT on BREAK > > enabled. > > I didn't even try that. For now, because of bootstrap considerations, I'm > running with an 11/23plus CPU and a VT-220 (because it's close). VT220 supports break generation and all. > Speaking of bootstraps, what did the H-11 come with stock? BDV-11? Custom > Heath board? No BDV11, that was a dec card. I remember a hand entered ODT boot. You could use a BDV11 or TEV11. The last time I used a real H11 running H27 and HT11 was 1981. Allison From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net Mon Oct 4 15:37:31 1999 From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (FBA) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: Ahh! Message-ID: <007301bf0ea8$48ee61e0$3c37d986@fauradon.beckman.com> I've got a van If I may be of any help, let me know I'm in Burnsville (not too far from John) Francois -----Original Message----- From: Lawrence LeMay To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, October 04, 1999 12:56 PM Subject: Ahh! >Holy gods of computing! I just spotted a PDP8/e system thats available! > >Its at times like this, that I really wish I had a working car... Ah well, >I'll have to convince some local friends to help me out. I REALLY want >a working PDP8/e... > >-Lawrence LeMay > From at258 at osfn.org Mon Oct 4 15:44:19 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: AT&T PC 6300 Plus Unix box In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In the 80'sm PC could, and it, sometimes refer to a professional computer. Even today, I can assure you, my PC is NOT Intel based. On Mon, 4 Oct 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Since when (either on this list, or 'back then') has 'personal computer' > > > implied an Intel CPU. > > > > Sorry, Tony. I've been inactive here for a fair while, not even > > reading much of the list for months on end (though I received the > > whole lot and they're archived awaiting "copious spare time"). > > > > I was using the term "PC" as it was more or less used at the time. > > Ah, but that's the point. Although today 'PC' seems to mean an > Intel-based box (that is _NOT_ 100% compatible with the original 5150, > but I digress), in the mid 1980s, I thought the term was used for all > sorts of other machines. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Oct 4 16:06:40 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: Classic power! Message-ID: <991004170640.20200357@trailing-edge.com> In the past few months, I've been heavily involved with upgrading some CAT scanners that date from the late 70's. I've mostly been involved with the PDP-11 side, but bolted onto the PDP-11 (or, actually, the other way around) there's a custom piece of hardware (two dozen hex-height cards) that does all the heavy number crunching. Backprojection is what the process is called, and it's basically a deconvolution of the data measured by the individual detectors to make the pretty picture of your insides that a CAT scanner displays. The power and speed of this classic hardware is quite impressive, considering it's nearly 20 years old now. We've been timing other approaches to backprojection, and if we implement the same algorithm that the custom hardware is doing but on a modern 533 MHz Pentium III, we discover that the custom hardware is twice as fast as the Pentium. There are some other competing technologies, making use of DSP chips, which promise to be faster, but at a substantial development cost. Is this a fair comparison? Maybe not! The Pentium system costs roughly $2000, while the custom backprojection hardware was several hundred thousand dollars back in the late 70's. The PC boards that make up the backprojector make use of a unique technology: the PC boards themselves are just plain old two-layer boards, with the actual PC traces carrying only power and ground. All the actual wiring is done by fine machine-laid wiring between pads, with all the wire layers "potted" in a plastic compound. Obviously, reworking such a PC board is extremely difficult, but it gives impressive component densities for the time. The modern equivalent of this is multi-layer PC boards, naturally. Of course, there's another sort of power involved too: the custom backprojection hardware requires +5V at 350 Amps, and some installations have multiple backprojectors! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 4 16:25:21 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: Classic power! References: <991004170640.20200357@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <99100417290001.09078@vault.neurotica.com> On Mon, 04 Oct 1999, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: >In the past few months, I've been heavily involved with upgrading >some CAT scanners that date from the late 70's. I've mostly been involved >with the PDP-11 side, but bolted onto the PDP-11 (or, actually, the other >way around) there's a custom piece of hardware (two dozen hex-height >cards) that does all the heavy number crunching. Backprojection is >what the process is called, and it's basically a deconvolution of the >data measured by the individual detectors to make the pretty picture >of your insides that a CAT scanner displays. That sounds like a kick-ass piece of hardware!! >The PC boards that make up the backprojector make use of a unique >technology: the PC boards themselves are just plain old two-layer boards, >with the actual PC traces carrying only power and ground. All the actual >wiring is done by fine machine-laid wiring between pads, with all >the wire layers "potted" in a plastic compound. Obviously, reworking >such a PC board is extremely difficult, but it gives impressive component >densities for the time. The modern equivalent of this is multi-layer >PC boards, naturally. I've seen a lot of those boards. They weren't a predecessor of multi-layer PCBs per se. Some company (I've long since forgotten their name) sold the system that created those boards...it was an in-house system so that you could just spend a hundred grand on this box, do all of your schematic capture and autorouting on it, and these weird potted-wire PC boards would just pop out the other side many hours later. It was a large system, about the size of a PC board testing system, and it was expensive...but it allowed you to keep all of your design info in-house, and it allowed for fairly rapid prototyping. I don't know if they're still in business, but I've got some boards with dates on them as late as 1997 that were created by such systems. -Dave McGuire From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 4 16:16:29 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: Floppy disks again In-Reply-To: (allisonp@world.std.com) References: Message-ID: <19991004211629.15827.qmail@brouhaha.com> Allison wrote about 5.25 inch diskettes with small (35-track) head windows: > I have em. Both 10 sector NS* format (no even for $20 I dont give them > up) and also some of my TI99/4a likely others that I'd have bought around Wow! What brand of diskettes were they? All the NS diskettes I've seen have the standard windows, but I think they were just 3M and Verbatim diskettes. Cheers, Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 4 16:19:07 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: Classic power! In-Reply-To: <991004170640.20200357@trailing-edge.com> (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) References: <991004170640.20200357@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <19991004211907.15851.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tim Shoppa wrote: > The PC boards that make up the backprojector make use of a unique > technology: the PC boards themselves are just plain old two-layer boards, > with the actual PC traces carrying only power and ground. All the actual > wiring is done by fine machine-laid wiring between pads, with all > the wire layers "potted" in a plastic compound. Obviously, reworking > such a PC board is extremely difficult, but it gives impressive component > densities for the time. The modern equivalent of this is multi-layer > PC boards, naturally. This was known by the trademark "Multiwire", and was often used for quick-turn production. DEC used it on a few boards in the KL10-PV processor; later revisions of the same boards were conventional PCBs. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Oct 4 16:43:34 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: Floppy disks again Message-ID: <991004174334.20200357@trailing-edge.com> Eric wrote: >Allison wrote about 5.25 inch diskettes with small (35-track) head windows: >> I have em. Both 10 sector NS* format (no even for $20 I dont give them >> up) and also some of my TI99/4a likely others that I'd have bought around >Wow! What brand of diskettes were they? All the NS diskettes I've seen >have the standard windows, but I think they were just 3M and Verbatim >diskettes. The first 5.25" floppies I ever used were actually Shugart brand. After all, they were the only company selling 5.25" drives at the time. (Similarly, all my early 8" floppies are IBM brand.) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk Mon Oct 4 13:27:17 1999 From: peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: Famous Private-Eye Shows You, Make 10K A Month References: <00a301bf0d2d$8fc672a0$13d8fea9@cel-366> Message-ID: <005b01bf0eb2$0bfc12a0$be4a883e@proteus> Hi Jim, > I would be interested on your thoughts of this SpamCop.net? Is it >worth my effort to parse and report the spam with it? How did it do >on this example of spam? I didn't submit this particular one myself, but I've been using SpamCop to complain about the avalanche of spam which has been coming via my Virgin account of late. So far, 17 spams being investigated and 4 spammers' accounts disabled.... :-)) TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk Mon Oct 4 13:30:03 1999 From: peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: Looking for a couple of bits.... References: <012d01bf08f9$7b057f60$a05d883e@proteus> Message-ID: <005c01bf0eb2$0ccea4e0$be4a883e@proteus> Grrr.... >....I've been unable to send e-mail reliably for a while due to system >problems....so anyone waiting for email (Sellam in particular) you'll >be receiving something during the next 24 hours or so. No sooner do I send that then my system packs up again....sigh. :-( Bl**dy IBM SCSI drives. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From edick at idcomm.com Mon Oct 4 16:55:34 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: 8-inch floppy availability Message-ID: <002101bf0eb3$4c89d720$0400c0a8@winbook> This is quite tangential to the subject, but since it relates to 8" floppies, I'll proceed. I have, among many other things, a box from SMS, which originally was an SMS FT400 "floppy terminal" (their nomenclature for a standalone FDC with two drives in a powered enclosure) from which I removed one of two power supplies, this one intended to power the 8X300-controlled 8" drive interface board, capable of both single and double-density, and, though it didn't have them in it, supposedly double-sided drives as well. The box has sat outside and the label has been discolored and faded by the sun for the past 10 years. Nevertheless, it's a solid and convenient package for otherwise unusable (due to the packaging trend which shifted from vertical to horizontal mounting for 8" drives, and resulted in the narrower "-R" type frame for 8" drives) "standard-frame" drives, of which I have a few, having recently aligned and cleaned a whole bunch for distribution to wherever. I'd like opinions, taking into consideration that the labels are faded to an almost unrecognizable state, as to whether it would be more desirable, from the standpoint of a collector, to restore the original power supply and controller board, along with the original model 800-2 drives, to the enclosure and use it with the standard parallel (several of them, and NOT a PC parallel port!) port interface or would it be more sensible to save the effort of reinstalling the controller power supply (the drive supply is still in there!) and the controller, and the interface panel from the back (if I find it), as opposed to simply cleaning it up and replacing the discolored vinyl panels with aluminum ones painted to match the box and maybe using the box to house a single-board computer using the drives in the box. The controller/drive combination in a standalone box was what enabled me, back in '79-'80, with the aid of Wayne Wall to write the drivers, to attach a totally unsupported 6502 system to these drives and run the APEX OS written back then by Peter Boyle for his Digital Group system, which this one emulated to large extent. I find this an attractive prospect, but can't find a sound reason for it, since I don't intend to resurrect the original host system. Maybe I'm overlooking something, though. Any suggestions? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Ethan Dicks To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, October 04, 1999 1:09 PM Subject: Re: 8-inch floppy availability > > >--- CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: >> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> >I did spot the obvious format switch on the front of the disk unit, but no >> >idea how to use it. I now wish that I'd picked up a couple more boxes of >> >media from a friend's business about eight years ago. >> >> What part of the world are you in, Ethan? > >For the moment, Ohio, but occasionally from various points in the Southern >Hemisphere. > >> Here in North America, new 8" floppies (preformatted, even) are readily >> available from a number of sources. > >I know they are available for enough money. I was lamenting the fact that I >could have picked up a bootload for nothing and never had to buy another disk >again. I have a case of formatted disks and several cases of used disks with >data files from schools and at least one university lab that I can reformat >and test. > >Mostly, I want to be able to extract the data *from* the floppies, not put >more data *on* them. I hope to stuff an 8" drive from my DataRam Q22 box >on an old 486 for data recovery, then back up my crate of PDP-8 and PDP-11 >floppies. > >-ethan > > >===== >Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. >Please send all replies to > > erd@iname.com >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From mark_k at iname.com Mon Oct 4 18:10:04 1999 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: Help wanted in dumping EPROMs Message-ID: Hi, Does anyone in the UK have access to equipment capable of dumping the data from 27C020 PLCC EPROMs? I have several which I want to preserve the data from. If you do, please contact me. (Alternatively, loan of a PLCC-to-DIP adapter for EPROMs would be just fine...) Bye, -- Mark From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Oct 4 17:52:06 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: Canon Cat Work Processor References: <19991003.120256.-300463.0.accentontravel@juno.com> Message-ID: <01d201bf0ebb$16798880$55731fd1@jrkeysppt> Sandy at canoncatjob@garlic.com has several working units with manuals tell him John Keys from the VCF3 sent you. Good Luck ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Sunday, October 03, 1999 2:02 PM Subject: Canon Cat Work Processor > Hello, > > We are looking for one or more Canon Cats to backup/replace existing > working units in our office. Can you help or advise? > > I found your e-mail address on the Web while searching for info on the > Cats. > > Regards, Ted Blishak > First Cabin Holidays, Inc. dba Accent On Travel-USA > 3939 S Sixth St., PMB 331, Klamath Falls, OR 97603 > ph 541 885 7330 800 347 0645 > fax 541 883 6457 http://www.trainweb.com/aot > From jpl15 at netcom.com Mon Oct 4 18:00:34 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: VCF II in the books Message-ID: Just a quick message to those of us on The List who I met at VCF... I had a FunTime, thanks to the FunTime everyone else seemed to be having... even though I was conned into bidding on a Teletype ASR35 and of course, it came home with me, like I have room for another... O well. ;} A huge "THANKS" to Sellam and the Crew, and everyone who worked so hard to make it all cool. The other major cool thing was getting to put a associate a face with the ASCII byte streams, at last. The other other Major Cool thing for me, was the Computer History Museum, wherein I (stern warning signs notwithstanding) actually got to touch part of the Real ENIAC... I flipped one of it's old switches.. hehehe... not to mention the two rolls of film I shot there. Here's to VCF2K! See you all there.... Cheers John From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Oct 4 18:08:28 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: Classic power! Message-ID: <19991004230828.24212.rocketmail@ web605.yahoomail.com> --- CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > In the past few months, I've been heavily involved with upgrading > some CAT scanners that date from the late 70's... > > The PC boards that make up the backprojector make use of a unique > technology: the PC boards themselves are just plain old two-layer boards, > with the actual PC traces carrying only power and ground. All the actual > wiring is done by fine machine-laid wiring between pads, with all > the wire layers "potted" in a plastic compound. The last design a former employer did was with a technology derived from this, Augat's Unilayer. We sent them gerber plots and a couple of weeks later (for an outrageous sum of money), we got back ten VAXBI 68010-based communications boards. Our break-even cost on a custom 10-layer (yes... DEC specified ten layers) was in the neighborhood of 20-25 boards. We never sold out of these VAX-BI units, so it was a worthwhile way to go. The actual construction was of two "decals" with embedded wires. Once spun, they were laid onto a perforated board and tacked down to small solder pads next to the holes, most of which had spring inserts in them. One defective board turned out to be a missing insert, thus, no electrical contact between pin and wire. A quick fix. We did re-work these - there was one ECO of a cut and a 1" jump. No fun, even with the microscope. I still have the boards. One of these days, I'll scan them in with the rest of our DEC<->IBM product line (PDP-11/04's in the *real* old days, custom 68K boards to the end in the 1990's). -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Oct 4 18:07:23 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: Ahh! References: <199910041830.SAA07390@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <02c201bf0ebd$3901f2a0$55731fd1@jrkeysppt> Good Luck with it , I have NO idea were it is and my storage is getting LOW. Thanks for thinking of me if you need help. John and you are in the Twincities (MN) area. ----- Original Message ----- From: Lawrence LeMay To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Monday, October 04, 1999 1:30 PM Subject: Re: Ahh! > By now you're probably looking at what I saw... I dont recognize most of > the stuff in those 2 racks, unfortunately. > > I suppose it wouldnt take John Keys much time at all to figure out > where that jpg came from. > > -Lawrence LeMay > > > Even now, rabid PDP-8 collectors are triangulating using message > > transimission time to narrow their search of your immediate vicinity :-) > > > > Congrats, let us all know what you get with it (and don't tell me a working > > DECTape drive or I'll turn lime green with envy! :-) > > > > --Chuck > > > > At 05:44 PM 10/4/99 +0000, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > >Holy gods of computing! I just spotted a PDP8/e system thats available! > > > > > >Its at times like this, that I really wish I had a working car... Ah well, > > >I'll have to convince some local friends to help me out. I REALLY want > > >a working PDP8/e... > > > > > >-Lawrence LeMay > > > > From dheap at metz.une.edu.au Mon Oct 4 18:10:31 1999 From: dheap at metz.une.edu.au (Dave Heap) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: Old Apple II, Commodore Amiga & Vic 20 Computers available Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991005090440.00a737a0@pobox.une.edu.au> The above may be of some interest to list subscribers in Australia: ------------------------------------ The School of Psychology has some old computer gear which is of no commercial value. The items include: Apple II with various interface cards, MicronEye video camera, printer Commodore Amiga computers and accessories Commodore Vic 20 Computers and accessories These items may or may not be in working order, but may be of interest to someone who collects ancient computers. I'd hate to have to throw them in the big green bin. If interested please contact me, or one of the Psychology Technical staff. -- Dave Heap mailto:dheap@metz.une.edu.au School of Psychology, <= postal address University of New England, phone: + 61 2 6773 2587 fax: + 61 2 6773 3820 Armidale NSW 2351, Australia http://metz.une.edu.au/~dheap/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 4 17:47:39 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: Ahh! In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991004111615.03b0a230@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Oct 4, 99 11:18:00 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 602 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991004/3a950ffc/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 4 17:58:28 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: A GT40 thought Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1306 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991004/6a849db1/attachment.ksh From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon Oct 4 18:20:04 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: Extender cards available Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991004162004.009ab360@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Hi, folks, First, the important stuff. I was over at HSC Electronics (one of the Bay Area's surplus places) last Friday (just before VCF), and I found that they had carted out a whole bin full of Vector extender cards and prototype boards, all marked at 75% off original price. More specifically, their assortment of extenders included ones for S-100, Apple II, MicroChannel (PS/2), and other vintage gear. I was quoted $40 for a MicroChannel extender in decent shape, and I really doubt the others would be any more expensive. The store's web site, containing their address, hours, and contact info, is at http://www.halted.com/ -=-=-=- -=-=- Now, with that out of the way... VCF was fun this year! There are only three things that I thought could have been done better. 1). If a person had pre-registered for both days, mark as much on the badge/tag/whatever. Don't require that they stand in line to re-register the following day. 2). Real badge holders/badges for all concerned would have been nice. Perhaps make those of the exhibitors and attendees different colors so the ushers can tell at a glance who's going to be going where. 3). POST THE OPERATING HOURS on the signs next to the registration table. I had completely forgotten what time the whole thing was supposed to start and end, and I had practically no access to the 'net during my trip to check the VCF web site. Other than that, I enjoyed it, though I had other business to tend to, and as a result was only there for a chunk of Saturday. I'd like to hear how the tour of the computer museum went. I'll see the lot of you next year, hopefully. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From bobstek at ix.netcom.com Mon Oct 4 18:38:42 1999 From: bobstek at ix.netcom.com (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: Any good dumpsters or surplus stores in Philly? Message-ID: I will be in Philadelphia all day Friday with nothing but time on my hands. Can anyone recommend any good hunting grounds for 1975 - 1985 micro's or micro magazines? Bob Stek bobstek@ix.netcom.com Saver of Lost SOLs From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 4 18:45:07 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: VCF II in the books References: Message-ID: <99100419455105.09078@vault.neurotica.com> This VCF thing...I'd love to take part in such an event. Is it always in the same place, or does it move around like some of the other big events? -Dave McGuire On Mon, 04 Oct 1999, John Lawson wrote: >Just a quick message to those of us on The List who I met at >VCF... I had a FunTime, thanks to the FunTime everyone else seemed >to be having... even though I was conned into bidding on a Teletype >ASR35 and of course, it came home with me, like I have room for >another... > > O well. ;} > > > > A huge "THANKS" to Sellam and the Crew, and everyone who worked so >hard to make it all cool. > > The other major cool thing was getting to put a associate a face >with the ASCII byte streams, at last. > > The other other Major Cool thing for me, was the Computer History >Museum, wherein I (stern warning signs notwithstanding) actually got >to touch part of the Real ENIAC... I flipped one of it's old >switches.. hehehe... not to mention the two rolls of film I shot >there. > > Here's to VCF2K! See you all there.... > > > Cheers > >John From mbg at world.std.com Mon Oct 4 18:51:29 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: DEC GT40 original list price? References: <199910032117.RAA23082@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199910042351.TAA02985@world.std.com> >Is it intentional that the minimum thrust setting is 10%? I'm afraid I can't answer that... only Jack can. I seem to remember that with that setting, if nothing else is changed, you get pretty close (though you have to do 100% thrust for a few seconds...) >After the game ran correctly for about six hours, it lost the thrust >indicator (the little horizontal line with a two-digit percentage right >next to the thrust control bar). It was still possible to control the >thrust. After another half hour, the display stopped working entirely, >although from the keyboard beeping on crashes, it was obvious that the >game was still running. I surmise that the display list was getting >corrupted. That is possible... each crash extends the display list because of the wreckage. But I'm not sure. I have seen the unit run for MANY hours without crashing or even losing any of the display... I guess it may have to do with how much memory you have. A few tricks... o I'm sure you know about flying through the mountain, so I won't mention it here. o Same for the trick of flying up over the mountain and landing on the other side... I think these have both been documented o If the lander lands successfully within range of the McD's, it sets the amount of fuel to be a constant for the take-off. You can land again if you are fast on reducing the amount of thrust. o The amount of fuel left is kept in location 130 or 140 (if I remember correctly). If you run out of fuel, it is possible to halt the machine and fuel-up :-) >If I'd had time to do it, it would have made sense to ask someone for a >copy of the RIM loader and a description of RIM format, and use that >instead, since it would require much less time to toggle in, and be less >error prone. Or take out the extra serial interface and put in an RX11 and attach it to a desktop RX01... My first contact with a GT40 was in such a configuration... running RT-11 (1975) >I suppose that I should mention that Mike Cheponis and I won the VCF >First Place award in the Minicomputer category for our GT40 exhibit. It >was rumored that Jack Burness might attend the VCF, but AFAIK he didn't. Congrats! Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From elvey at hal.com Mon Oct 4 18:57:25 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: VCF II in the books In-Reply-To: <99100419455105.09078@vault.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <199910042357.QAA26083@civic.hal.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > > This VCF thing...I'd love to take part in such an event. Is it always in > the > same place, or does it move around like some of the other big events? Hi If someone was to pay Sam's way, I'm sure he'd consider other locations. I wouldn't like it much since I live in the area here. The other thing might be to have east and west coast ones at 6 month intervals. Someone else could run one in, say, Boston, for instance. It is a lot of work though. Dwight From marvin at rain.org Mon Oct 4 19:01:40 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: Classic power! References: <991004170640.20200357@trailing-edge.com> <99100417290001.09078@vault.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <37F93FE4.5BD7947@rain.org> Dave McGuire wrote: > >The PC boards that make up the backprojector make use of a unique > >technology: the PC boards themselves are just plain old two-layer boards, > >with the actual PC traces carrying only power and ground. All the actual > >wiring is done by fine machine-laid wiring between pads, with all > >the wire layers "potted" in a plastic compound. Obviously, reworking > >such a PC board is extremely difficult, but it gives impressive component > >densities for the time. The modern equivalent of this is multi-layer > >PC boards, naturally. > > I've seen a lot of those boards. They weren't a predecessor of multi-layer > PCBs per se. Some company (I've long since forgotten their name) sold the > system that created those boards...it was an in-house system so that you could PhotoCircuits on Long Island was IIRC involved with it at one time. I don't recall if they were a part of Kollmorgen (sp???) at the time or not, but I saw the Multiwire machines working, and they were rather interesting to watch! From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 4 18:47:48 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: A GT40 thought In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19991004234748.17726.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > I seem to remember that somebody here has a GT40 that loses the display > after a time. > I also remember that mine did this and it took me a long time to track > down the basic cause -- lost interrupts (!). If you're referring to mine, I don't think that's the problem, because even power-cycling the machine and restarting the program doesn't fix it. I'm pretty sure it was a software bug in Moonlander, causing the display list to get corrupted. Since my GT40 ROMs has different ROMs than the standard ones listed in the manual, and which don't seem to perform the same function, I had to reassemble the loader to a different address. I picked 037000. It worked, but Moonlander overwrites it. It takes so long and is so error-prone to toggle in the nearly 256 words of the loader that I haven't yet tried it again. I think what I really need is the RIM loader and a description of the RIM format. > Incidentally, my 'GT40' is missing both the standard boot ROMs and the > keyboard. I suspect I could burn the former given a copy of the code > (source or binary), but I don't have it. Source is on my web page: http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/dec/gt40/ If I were burning roms, I'd change the target of the two branches in the GETSIX routine to branch back to GETSIX rather than to L.BAD. This allows carriage returns, line feeds, etc. to occur in the middle of the download. On the other hand, it means that a corrupted download is less likely to signal the host for automatic error recovery. Since I was trying to download from a terminal program on a PC that didn't know anything about the GT40, that was a non-issue. But it turned out that the "ASCII download" feature of the program would crash if the lines were too long. Probably a lazy programmer using the C gets() function, which is a no-no. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 4 19:02:18 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: VCF II in the books References: <199910042357.QAA26083@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <9910042003330A.09078@vault.neurotica.com> On Mon, 04 Oct 1999, Dwight Elvey wrote: > If someone was to pay Sam's way, I'm sure he'd consider >other locations. I wouldn't like it much since I live >in the area here. The other thing might be to have >east and west coast ones at 6 month intervals. Someone >else could run one in, say, Boston, for instance. It is a >lot of work though. I'm sure it would be. I'd be more in favor of a more central east-coast location, say Washington DC. That's partially due to the fact that that's where I live. ;) But seriously, there are classic computer lovers in more places than just California! -Dave McGuire From mbg at world.std.com Mon Oct 4 19:03:33 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: Heathkit H-11 restoration questions Message-ID: <199910050003.UAA10379@world.std.com> >Yes it was or in a later time frame m8186 (kdf11, 11/23) with m8044s. >that workes better than 11/23+ (m8189) as it was a dual solution and the >hath backplane was rather cramped. Mine actually has an 11/53+ board in it... :-) I do have the H27 board and drives and a heath serial line board, though I use a DLV11-J and and -E in it. I also have an RQDX3 connected to a table-top RD54 nowadays... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 4 18:16:19 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: Classic power! In-Reply-To: <991004170640.20200357@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Oct 4, 99 05:06:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1909 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991005/e377d15b/attachment.ksh From elvey at hal.com Mon Oct 4 19:17:34 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: Should be VCFIII(VCF II) in the books In-Reply-To: <9910042003330A.09078@vault.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <199910050017.RAA26097@civic.hal.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > I'm sure it would be. I'd be more in favor of a more central east-coast > location, say Washington DC. Hi It just seemed like Boston is a more natural technological location. But then I see everything east of the Sierras as being just jet travel. Dwight From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Oct 4 19:28:56 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: Heathkit H-11 restoration questions In-Reply-To: References: <19991004200953.950.rocketmail@web607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991004172739.0427d380@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Allison wrote: >No BDV11, that was a dec card. I remember a hand entered ODT boot. You >could use a BDV11 or TEV11. The last time I used a real H11 running H27 >and HT11 was 1981. The Heath floppy interface card has a boot ROM. When this card is installed you get a $ prompt (instead of the @ odt prompt). Typing "DX" to this prompt boots from the drive. --Chuck From mbg at world.std.com Mon Oct 4 19:33:04 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: Ahhh! Message-ID: <199910050033.UAA28452@world.std.com> I grabbed a copy of the picture... a little dark... I had to do some adjustments to it... What I see are: o Two H960 tall cabs o One cab has 4 RL series drives in it (pretty obvious) o The other has what appears to be a pdp-8/e/f and two pdp-8/A's, both with the programmer console. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 4 19:07:41 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: A GT40 thought In-Reply-To: <19991004234748.17726.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Oct 4, 99 11:47:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1760 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991005/a9fc89a3/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 4 20:14:24 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:41 2005 Subject: Classic power! Message-ID: <199910050114.VAA23990@world.std.com> <> I have em. Both 10 sector NS* format (no even for $20 I dont give them <> up) and also some of my TI99/4a likely others that I'd have bought aroun < from Dave McGuire at "Oct 4, 1999 8: 2:18 pm" Message-ID: <199910050155.VAA01187@pechter.dyndns.org> > On Mon, 04 Oct 1999, Dwight Elvey wrote: > > If someone was to pay Sam's way, I'm sure he'd consider > >other locations. I wouldn't like it much since I live > >in the area here. The other thing might be to have > >east and west coast ones at 6 month intervals. Someone > >else could run one in, say, Boston, for instance. It is a > >lot of work though. > > I'm sure it would be. I'd be more in favor of a more central east-coast > location, say Washington DC. That's partially due to the fact that that's > where I live. ;) But seriously, there are classic computer lovers in more > places than just California! > > -Dave McGuire I wonder if Trenton or Mercer County NJ might work. This was the site of the excellent Trenton Computer Festival, which, until it became a mostly PC event, was known for the number of 8's, 11's Vaxes and Sun3's that were sold and swapped there. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 4 20:58:04 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: VCF II in the books References: <199910050155.VAA01187@pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <99100421591104.09371@vault.neurotica.com> On Mon, 04 Oct 1999, Bill Pechter wrote: >I wonder if Trenton or Mercer County NJ might work. This was the site >of the excellent Trenton Computer Festival, which, until it became >a mostly PC event, was known for the number of 8's, 11's Vaxes and >Sun3's that were sold and swapped there. I used to live very close to there. I did *lots* of pdp buying & selling there in the mid-80s. What a great fest that used to be! -Dave McGuire From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon Oct 4 20:59:44 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: Classic power! In-Reply-To: <99100417290001.09078@vault.neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Oct 4, 1999 5:25:21 pm" Message-ID: <199910050159.VAA01271@pechter.dyndns.org> > >The PC boards that make up the backprojector make use of a unique > >technology: the PC boards themselves are just plain old two-layer boards, > >with the actual PC traces carrying only power and ground. All the actual > >wiring is done by fine machine-laid wiring between pads, with all > >the wire layers "potted" in a plastic compound. Obviously, reworking > >such a PC board is extremely difficult, but it gives impressive component > >densities for the time. The modern equivalent of this is multi-layer > >PC boards, naturally. > -Dave McGuire The multiwire was quite nice and cheap in it's day. ECO's were often done by drilling down a few layers. The old Concurrent Computer/Perkin Elmer/Interdata 7/32, 8/32 and 3200 series used them heavily until multilayer boards got cheaper to do. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Mon Oct 4 21:10:01 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: Extender cards available In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991004162004.009ab360@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991004191001.007783c8@ferrari.sfu.ca> Hi Bruce: Any extenders suitable for DEC backplanes? Quad height or hex height? Kevin At 04:20 PM 99/10/04 -0700, you wrote: >Hi, folks, > > First, the important stuff. I was over at HSC Electronics (one of the Bay >Area's surplus places) last Friday (just before VCF), and I found that they >had carted out a whole bin full of Vector extender cards and prototype >boards, all marked at 75% off original price. > > More specifically, their assortment of extenders included ones for >S-100, Apple II, MicroChannel (PS/2), and other vintage gear. I was quoted >$40 for a MicroChannel extender in decent shape, and I really doubt the >others would be any more expensive. > > The store's web site, containing their address, hours, and contact info, >is at http://www.halted.com/ > >-=-=-=- -=-=- > > Now, with that out of the way... VCF was fun this year! There are only >three things that I thought could have been done better. > > 1). If a person had pre-registered for both days, mark as much on the >badge/tag/whatever. Don't require that they stand in line to re-register >the following day. > > 2). Real badge holders/badges for all concerned would have been nice. >Perhaps make those of the exhibitors and attendees different colors so the >ushers can tell at a glance who's going to be going where. > > 3). POST THE OPERATING HOURS on the signs next to the registration table. >I had completely forgotten what time the whole thing was supposed to start >and end, and I had practically no access to the 'net during my trip to >check the VCF web site. > > Other than that, I enjoyed it, though I had other business to tend to, and >as a result was only there for a chunk of Saturday. I'd like to hear how >the tour of the computer museum went. > > I'll see the lot of you next year, hopefully. > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies >http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com >Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 >"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our >own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." > > > --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Oct 4 13:01:53 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: Heathkit H-11 restoration questions In-Reply-To: allisonp@world.std.com "Re: Heathkit H-11 restoration questions" (Oct 4, 8:50) References: Message-ID: <9910041901.ZM2849@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 4, 8:50, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > Subject: Re: Heathkit H-11 restoration questions > > with a much more interesting banner. It claims to be Rev 0.9 of a ROM set > > for the 11/23plus, and after verbosely testing memory, tries to boot DU3. > > The M8189 was available as two basic versions 11/23 and the plus. The > primary difference was what it could boot. I don't think Alison means 11/23 and 11/23plus; the 11/23 uses a dual-height M8186 (KDF11-A) board. But the M8189 was used in both 11/23plus (BA11-N box, IIRC) and microPDP11/23 (BA23 box). The difference was just the boot ROMs, as she said. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From edick at idcomm.com Mon Oct 4 22:08:13 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: Help wanted in dumping EPROMs Message-ID: <001901bf0ede$df13ab40$0400c0a8@winbook> An adapter would not be very challenging to hand-wire, sir. You'll never know when you may need it again. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Mark To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, October 04, 1999 5:19 PM Subject: Help wanted in dumping EPROMs >Hi, > >Does anyone in the UK have access to equipment capable of dumping the data >from 27C020 PLCC EPROMs? I have several which I want to preserve the data >from. If you do, please contact me. > >(Alternatively, loan of a PLCC-to-DIP adapter for EPROMs would be just >fine...) > > >Bye, >-- Mark > From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 4 22:31:11 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: Heathkit H-11 restoration questions Message-ID: <199910050331.XAA17578@world.std.com> <> The M8189 was available as two basic versions 11/23 and the plus. The <> primary difference was what it could boot. < Message-ID: <9910050426.ZM3482@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 4, 16:30, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > Subject: Re: Different diskette formats (was: Wanted: MicroBee computer > > BTW, Allison recently referred to "hundreds" of different formats. Our > > estimate is abour 2500! XenoCopy-PC currently supports 400. > > No arguement here. I was talking media, drive and physical format. Add > OS and things like sectornumbering and skewing... gee, only 2500? ;) > > As a direct result of that there are very few 5.25 formats implmented in > my room and I try to keep it to the bare minimum. I've gone as far as to > modify systems for 3.5" drives and lock in on the more limited numbers of > formats used there. The 5.25" market was both standard and nonportable > at the same time and was a constant source of annoyance. > > Now if it's 5.25 it will be VT180, Visual1050, Kaypro 1/II, RX50, RX33 or > I use only of many tools to copy down to native for that machine. Or at > least the common ones in that pack. I have the same sort of problem. Even when considering just one manufacturer, there can be a fair range of formats. Commodore formats come to mind, but in my case I have a lot of Acorn equipment, and I have 5.25" disks that are 100K (SSSD 40 track 10 sectors/track 256 bytes/sector), 160K (SSDD 40 track 16 sectors/track 256 bytes/sector), 200K (DSSD 40 track 10 sectors/track 256 bytes/sector), 320K (both DSDD 40 track, and SSDD 80 track), 640K (DSDD 80 track). Then there are 3.5" disks 640K (same format as the 5.25"), 800K (DSDD 80 track 5 sectors/track 1024 bytes/sector), and 1.6M (DSHD 80 track 5 sectors/track 1024 bytes/sector). Several of these have different possible directory structures, too. The later machines can also read/write most of the "standard" MS-DOS formats. To keep it halfway manageable, I tend to copy anything Acorn I get to one of the two most common formats. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Oct 4 22:47:51 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: Heathkit H-11 restoration questions In-Reply-To: Allison J Parent "Re: Heathkit H-11 restoration questions" (Oct 4, 23:31) References: <199910050331.XAA17578@world.std.com> Message-ID: <9910050447.ZM3571@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 4, 23:31, Allison J Parent wrote: M8189 KDF-11BA 11/23B serial + boot diag roms. No MSCP boot. Ah yes, I'd foprgotten about that one... I must have five different sets of boot ROMs for KDJ-11Bs -- including a set transferred to a modified BDV11 to use with an -11A. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From donm at cts.com Tue Oct 5 00:07:56 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: Floppy disks again In-Reply-To: <19991004211629.15827.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 4 Oct 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > Allison wrote about 5.25 inch diskettes with small (35-track) head windows: > > I have em. Both 10 sector NS* format (no even for $20 I dont give them > > up) and also some of my TI99/4a likely others that I'd have bought around > > Wow! What brand of diskettes were they? All the NS diskettes I've seen > have the standard windows, but I think they were just 3M and Verbatim > diskettes. I have a couple (and perhaps more) Verbatim 10 sector diskettes for N* that have the short window. - don From Henk.J.Stegeman at is.shell.com Tue Oct 5 01:36:11 1999 From: Henk.J.Stegeman at is.shell.com (Stegeman, Henk HJ SSI-TSEA-331) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: Don't look Message-ID: <91F077611570D211B0B40008C7244B330236C4BE@LDMS6001> Hi John, Don't visit this site: http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw/jcgm-mfhcc.html You might regret it. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Oct 5 01:54:53 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: VCF II in the books In-Reply-To: <199910042357.QAA26083@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Oct 1999, Dwight Elvey wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: > > > > This VCF thing...I'd love to take part in such an event. Is it always in > > the > > same place, or does it move around like some of the other big events? > > If someone was to pay Sam's way, I'm sure he'd consider > other locations. I wouldn't like it much since I live > in the area here. The other thing might be to have > east and west coast ones at 6 month intervals. Someone > else could run one in, say, Boston, for instance. It is a > lot of work though. Just to tease everyone, I've been approached by someone with the necessary connections to do a VCF East, and a VCF Europe is about 50% certain. Of course, as these things are, they could go nowhere, but I think the two parties interested in doing each event respectively are serious, so stay tuned for further developments :) P.S. VCF 3.0 photos including shots of the exhibitors and the vendor area will go up on the VCF website in trhe next couple weeks. Also, some talks from the VCF as well as video from the event will be web cast courtesy of Dr. Dobb's Journal in about a week or two. VCF 3.0 was a blast! Thanks for everyone that helped make it happen. If you didn't make it out this year, definitely plan to make VCF 4.0!! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From karlm at blitzen.ise.canberra.edu.au Tue Oct 5 02:14:16 1999 From: karlm at blitzen.ise.canberra.edu.au (Karl Maftoum) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: DG Nova 3 & LSI-11 Message-ID: Hi all, A most interesting find was unearthed this afternoon, a DG Nova 3 with it's CDC platter drive! Not knowing much about the Nova series of computers, exactly what would be required to make it work? Also found was a home-built Q-Bus PDP-11 with RX50 drives, a M8192 CPU Module (What -11 is it?) an RQDX3 controller, a DEC card labelled M7546 and a card labelle "CTBC Computer Plus 1986" with a connector that leads to a homemade switch a LED setup. Any Clues? Cheers Karl ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Karl Maftoum Computer Engineering student at the University of Canberra, Australia Email: k.maftoum@student.canberra.edu.au From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Oct 5 04:00:15 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: Extender cards available In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991004162004.009ab360@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: > More specifically, their assortment of extenders included ones for >S-100, Apple II, MicroChannel (PS/2), and other vintage gear. I was quoted >$40 for a MicroChannel extender in decent shape, and I really doubt the >others would be any more expensive. I think I have an S-100 extender. (I know I have an extender, just not what exactly it is). From karlm at blitzen.ise.canberra.edu.au Tue Oct 5 06:09:57 1999 From: karlm at blitzen.ise.canberra.edu.au (Karl Maftoum) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: DG Nova 3 & LSI-11 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I know it's bad for to follow-up your own messages but.. The DG appeared to fire up correctly after the fitting of a correct plug, however all the lights turned on with no signs of life from the CPU. I pulled out the CRO to see if there was any clocks etc on the bus, and whilst checking this out, all the light mysteriously went off, never to return. The pwr supply is running, but there appear to be about 15 fuses in this damn thing, of which about half are open, so I'll replace most of them and see if it remidies the situation. As for the LSI-11, I plugged the basic cards in (CPU/Memory) and the KDJ-11A reported "No SLU" on the diag lights, so far so good, so I plugged the rest of the cards in,including the oddball CTBC card, which had some kind of strange home-built relay contraption on the front of it with apporpriate matching plugs in the main unit. Of course the moment i switched it on I got the blue flash of death and the supply fuse opened, and two resistors on that card went to heaven, _hopefully_ without damaging the rest of the bus. It appears that somehow this thing was to control some kind of equipment, but failed and dumped god-knows-what into the card instead, (I'm really hoping nothing else is damaged, it doesn't appear to be). Important lesson learned. Regards Karl From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Oct 5 06:55:56 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: VCF II in the books Message-ID: <19991005115556.25641.rocketmail@web603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sellam Ismail wrote: > Just to tease everyone, I've been approached by someone with the necessary > connections to do a VCF East, and a VCF Europe is about 50% certain. I would be *very* interested in a VCF East. I think that DC would be a fine location as would Boston (but DC is more centrally located). -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Oct 5 07:23:15 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: Heathkit H-11 restoration questions Message-ID: <991005082315.202003d5@trailing-edge.com> ><> The M8189 was available as two basic versions 11/23 and the plus. The ><> primary difference was what it could boot. >< ><11/23plus (BA11-N box, IIRC) and microPDP11/23 (BA23 box). The difference > >No I meant what I said. > > M8186 KDF-11A 11/23 No serial or boot/diag roms > Depending on rev either 18bit or 22bit (if no MMU then 16bit) > > M8189 KDF-11BA 11/23B serial + boot diag roms. No MSCP boot. > M8189 KDF-11BB 11/23+ Same board different boot roms. Boots MSCP > Both are Q22 though early versions were packaged as Q18 You might want to look at your original quote again, Allison. It sounds like you claim you said "The M8189 was available as two versions, the M8186 and the M8189". Isn't that like saying "The Mercedes is available as two versions, the Mercedes and the Chrysler"? Yeah, sure, they might share some things in common, but they *aren't* the same board by any stretch of the imagination! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 5 07:37:26 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: Heathkit H-11 restoration questions In-Reply-To: <991005082315.202003d5@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > sounds like you claim you said "The M8189 was available as two versions, > the M8186 and the M8189". Isn't that like saying "The Mercedes is > available as two versions, the Mercedes and the Chrysler"? Yeah, sure, > they might share some things in common, but they *aren't* the same > board by any stretch of the imagination! Humm, now we mutate into grammer. Are you telling me I didn't mean what I wrote or didn't write what I meant? You try composing on this damm telnet link. Editing usually adds lots of minutes waiting for the stinking thing to catch up... Then I post and it doesn't look like the edited copy... And control-Ls are just too slow. Side effect of being a full area code away from the ISP.. Anywho, in the Qbus -11 family of 11/23s there are distinct members that are different. If that wasn't clear what is? Allison From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Oct 5 07:50:50 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: Heathkit H-11 restoration questions Message-ID: <991005085050.202003d5@trailing-edge.com> >Anywho, in the Qbus -11 family of 11/23s there are distinct members that >are different. If that wasn't clear what is? Oh, I agree with you there. Things get even worse when you go to the 11/73 family - there at least three dozen different boards all based on the same J11 chipset that's in the 11/73. And some of those boards are identified by DEC as 11/73's if used with non-PMI memory, and are identified by DEC as 11/83's if used with PMI memory! And within a given board etch, there are different designations depending on the rev level of the J11 chip installed and the frequency of the crystal that's installed. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From cfandt at netsync.net Tue Oct 5 07:57:57 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: Heathkit H-11 restoration questions In-Reply-To: <19991004164530.17261.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991005085252.00a6f8b0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 09:45 AM 10/4/99 -0700, Ethan Dicks said something like: >--- allisonp@world.std.com wrote: >> RXV11 is only compatable with the DEC RX01. The H11 Floppy used a Heath >> interface. If you use the heath floppy with RXV11 nothing happens. > >OK. I'll go back to the card and get it working. Worst case, I'll pull >all the sockets and solder in machine-pin ones. I'd rather not; it's lots >of work. I observed substantial oxidation of the plating on the ICs I did >remove and test (I can't test DEC bus chips with my IC tester, only CMOS, >TTL and DRAM). > >> Get manuals for it! you'll save pain. > >Any pointers on where to lay hands on H-11 docs? Contact me off-line Ethan. I've got a couple H-11s and a single pile of docs, which I think may be complete, in my collection. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From at258 at osfn.org Tue Oct 5 08:17:53 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: DG Nova 3 & LSI-11 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, Karl Maftoum wrote: > Of course the moment i > switched it on I got the blue flash of death... Think of it rather as the blue flash of understanding... You should talk to Carl Friend, he breeds the little devils. The front switches are supposed to be a bit delicate. M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From cfandt at netsync.net Tue Oct 5 08:37:27 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: Heathkit H-11 restoration questions In-Reply-To: References: <19991004164530.17261.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991005092346.00a84f10@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 01:16 PM 10/4/99 -0400, allisonp@world.std.com said something like: -- snip -- > >Manuals try heathkit of whatever their name is now. I know Heath sells copies of any manual they still have in their files. Many manuals for their test equipment and ham gear have been purchased by members of one of the Heathkit-related lists I'm a member of. Haven't heard any feedback as to any of their computer-related manuals being available though. Here's an address I had found: Heathkit Co. (800) 253-0570 P.O. Box 1288 Benton Harbor, MI 49023 I just sent a msg to Ethan re using my manual set but any of you others may check with Heath at the addr./phone above. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 5 09:02:19 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: VCF II in the books In-Reply-To: <199910042357.QAA26083@civic.hal.com> References: <99100419455105.09078@vault.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991005090219.01e0d830@vpwisfirewall> At 04:57 PM 10/4/99 -0700, Dwight Elvey wrote: > If someone was to pay Sam's way, I'm sure he'd consider >other locations. I wouldn't like it much since I live >in the area here. What happens next is that Sam begins to live the high life on all the fame and profits of running the VCF, and he changes it to a twice-a-year event on both coasts, and then a magazine springs up so you can get a taste of the now increasingly pop-culture antique computer market, and then he retires after selling the whole enterprise. - John From Jgzabol at aol.com Tue Oct 5 10:00:18 1999 From: Jgzabol at aol.com (Jgzabol@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: Don't look Message-ID: <67d3737f.252b6c82@aol.com> Hi Henk, it is worse: I have been at that place already two times, once about two years ago, and then last Saturday --- these people are _VERY_ effective at obtaining things, quite a few people whom I asked about old hardware told me "Eugenoe got it all already", referring to Eugene Miya, one of the volunteers working for that organization. He is at NASA Ames, deeply involved with many of the Supercomputer (and previous CDC) sites here. I tried the two email addresses of Mr. Bartsch at Synstar, both return "user unknown". When I am back to Germany in two weeks I will use the ancient technology of the telephone. Thanks and regards John From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Tue Oct 5 10:15:15 1999 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: VCF II in the books Message-ID: <80256801.00537010.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Sam wrote: > Just to tease everyone, I've been approached by someone with the necessary > connections to do a VCF East, and a VCF Europe is about 50% certain. I'm very interested in VCF Europe - could you put me in touch (privately) with those concerned, please. (I've a good idea who it might be!). I want to help make this happen! > Of course, as these things are, they could go nowhere, but I think the two > parties interested in doing each event respectively are serious, so stay > tuned for further developments :) It needs to be done. Philip. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. Power Technology Centre, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, Nottingham, NG11 0EE, UK Tel: +44 (0)115 936 2000 http://www.powertech.co.uk ********************************************************************** From Jgzabol at aol.com Tue Oct 5 10:51:13 1999 From: Jgzabol at aol.com (Jgzabol@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: Don't look Message-ID: Hi all, I really have to apologize for repeatedly sending private mail to the list. Does anyone know about a mail browser with two different reply functions: - reply to originator - reply to reply address ?? The classiccmp feature of always having the list as reply address is a little dangerous. Regards John G. Zabolitzky From DD950 at prodigy.net Tue Oct 5 11:03:49 1999 From: DD950 at prodigy.net (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: Don't look Message-ID: <011401bf0f4b$37469680$1d5cfea9@cel-366> I hate to admit it, but i use Outlook Express 4 and 5. I like it. It gives you a choice of sending to groups or individuals on both email lists and newsgroups. But if you are like me, you will always hit the wrong button anyway. OE 4-5 is free at the IE5 site on MicroSoft. If you have Win98, hit start-Windows Update and you are there. OE 5 can also check you Hotmail accounts for you. Reagards, "Only when no one responds to spam will it go away." If someone tries to sell you something via unsolicited email, don't buy it. Jim Rossbach, Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club Web Ring, www.TonkinYachts.cjb.net -----Original Message----- From: Jgzabol@aol.com >Hi all, > >I really have to apologize for repeatedly sending private mail to the list. > >Does anyone know about a mail browser with two different reply functions: > - reply to originator > - reply to reply address ?? > -------------snip------------------- From joesi at wrq.com Tue Oct 5 11:08:53 1999 From: joesi at wrq.com (Joe Silagi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: HP 3000 Message-ID: <86EDBD151558D311BB5700508B2E03FC0BCF85@pikachu.wrq.com> Hello Aaron, If either of the Micro 3000's are available I'm interested. Thanks, Joe Silagi WRQ,Inc. wk: 206-217-7655 joesi@wrq.com -----Original Message----- > Date sent: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 13:28:11 -0700 > Subject: HP3000 Gear Available In Seattle Area... > From: af-list@lafleur.wfi-inc.com > To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Send reply to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > > If anyone is interested in some HP3000 gear around Seattle, please let me > know. The guy with the stuff doesn't want to be contacted directly and is > looking for someone who can pick it up locally. I only wish I had time for > a road-trip! Bring a truck! > > He's got: > 1 - Series 37 (parts mostly because of a bad power supply) > 1 - Micro 3000 GX (4 Meg + 300M Disc + 9145 + 8 ports) > 1 - Micro 3000 RX (4 Meg + 300M Disc + 9144 + 16 ports) > 3 - 7937 - 627M HPIB disc drives (BIG) > 2 - Standalone 9144 drives > 1 - 7980 - 6250 BPI Tape drive > 1 - 7958 - 130M Disc Drive > > Nice gear... > > Cheers, > > Aaron From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 5 11:24:50 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: Heathkit H-11 restoration questions In-Reply-To: <991005085050.202003d5@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > 11/73 family - there at least three dozen different boards > all based on the same J11 chipset that's in the 11/73. And some of those > boards are identified by DEC as 11/73's if used with non-PMI memory, and Ugh, didn't even want to touch that one. I have one of the NON-pim 11/73s (m8190) and when I talk about it it casuses all manner of confusion. Especially since I have it maxed for ram (all qbus!). Allison From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Tue Oct 5 11:36:14 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: VCF II in the books In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991005090219.01e0d830@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: I want in on the IPO... (rushing to open an ETrade account right now) Aaron On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, John Foust wrote: > At 04:57 PM 10/4/99 -0700, Dwight Elvey wrote: > > If someone was to pay Sam's way, I'm sure he'd consider > >other locations. I wouldn't like it much since I live > >in the area here. > > What happens next is that Sam begins to live the high life on all > the fame and profits of running the VCF, and he changes it to a > twice-a-year event on both coasts, and then a magazine springs > up so you can get a taste of the now increasingly pop-culture > antique computer market, and then he retires after selling the > whole enterprise. > > - John > From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Tue Oct 5 11:38:20 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: Don't look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Oct 1999 Jgzabol@aol.com wrote: > Hi all, > > I really have to apologize for repeatedly sending private mail to the list. > > Does anyone know about a mail browser with two different reply functions: > - reply to originator > - reply to reply address ?? Pine! It asks whether you want to reply to the Reply Address or the From Address... Aaron From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Oct 5 12:09:53 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: VCF II in the books In-Reply-To: <19991005115556.25641.rocketmail@web603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >--- Sellam Ismail wrote: >> Just to tease everyone, I've been approached by someone with the necessary >> connections to do a VCF East, and a VCF Europe is about 50% certain. > >I would be *very* interested in a VCF East. I think that DC would be a fine >location as would Boston (but DC is more centrally located). DC is too expensive for a non DC specific trip. From jpl15 at netcom.com Tue Oct 5 12:16:17 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: VCF III Pix Message-ID: I took many pictures at VCF, and many pictures while at the Computer Museum. I will be happy to scan them into jpegs, if someone has a good place to store the resulting files. My own website is a little iffy right now as regards anonymous FTP. I imagine there will be around 20-25 pix worth looking at.... I will see how the Computer Museum shots turned out today... I took them in available light. Oh yes... I'd like to see a show of hands of those interested in a SoCal VCF/Swapmeet... it was a lot of fun and I'm pretty sure I will try and have one here early next year. Cheerz John From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 5 12:16:53 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: VCF II in the books References: Message-ID: <9910051317120N.09371@vault.neurotica.com> On Tue, 05 Oct 1999, Mike Ford wrote: >>--- Sellam Ismail wrote: >>> Just to tease everyone, I've been approached by someone with the necessary >>> connections to do a VCF East, and a VCF Europe is about 50% certain. >> >>I would be *very* interested in a VCF East. I think that DC would be a fine >>location as would Boston (but DC is more centrally located). > >DC is too expensive for a non DC specific trip. Oh well, time to move. -Dave McGuire From rmeenaks at olf.com Tue Oct 5 12:58:31 1999 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: Identify the following transputer board References: <13485119737.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <37FA3C47.B1FFD7EB@olf.com> Hi, Well, I received yet another unidentifiable board. It is a parsytec MTM2-12 board and it contains two T805-30MHz transputers. There are no connectors on the bracket that fastens to a chasis other than 3 led lights. There is a connector of some kind on the other end. It looks similar to an IDE connector but has three rows of pins rather than two. There are no edge connectors at all, so it isnt ISA, PCI, etc. Anybody got a clue as to what this board is?? I tried to contact parsytec (US office), but apparently no one there seems to know anything about transputers. Ram -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | Senior Software Engineer | OpenLink Financial Inc | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ From donm at cts.com Tue Oct 5 13:08:42 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: Don't look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Oct 1999 Jgzabol@aol.com wrote: > Hi all, > > I really have to apologize for repeatedly sending private mail to the list. > > Does anyone know about a mail browser with two different reply functions: > - reply to originator > - reply to reply address ?? pine! - don > The classiccmp feature of always having the list as reply address > is a little dangerous. > > Regards > John G. Zabolitzky > > > From rmeenaks at olf.com Tue Oct 5 13:24:58 1999 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: Identify the following transputer board References: <13485119737.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> <37FA3C47.B1FFD7EB@olf.com> Message-ID: <37FA427A.BD1D6537@olf.com> Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > Hi, > > Well, I received yet another unidentifiable board. It is a parsytec MTM2-12 > board and it contains two T805-30MHz transputers. There are no connectors on > the bracket that fastens to a chasis other than 3 led lights. There is a > connector of some kind on the other end. It looks similar to an IDE connector > but has three rows of pins rather than two. There are no edge connectors at > all, so it isnt ISA, PCI, etc. Anybody got a clue as to what this board is?? > I tried to contact parsytec (US office), but apparently no one there seems to > know anything about transputers. > This might be a VME-based transputer board. I have an Sun IPX, is there anything I can use to connect this board to the Sun and test it out. I remember that there was once a option for Sun's to add VME to Sparc2 and IPXs, something called force. Does anyone know where I can get this or something similar. Thanks Ram -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | Senior Software Engineer | OpenLink Financial Inc | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ From ss at allegro.com Tue Oct 5 13:27:38 1999 From: ss at allegro.com (ss@allegro.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: VCF III Pix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199910051827.LAA06105@bart.allegro.com> John writes: > I took many pictures at VCF, and many pictures while at the > Computer Museum. I will be happy to scan them into jpegs, if > someone has a good place to store the resulting files. My own > website is a little iffy right now as regards anonymous FTP. I'll volunteer my machine. Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 5 12:20:25 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: Help wanted in dumping EPROMs In-Reply-To: <001901bf0ede$df13ab40$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Oct 4, 99 09:08:13 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 506 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991005/d3a41b80/attachment.ksh From wsmith at gj.com Tue Oct 5 13:20:28 1999 From: wsmith at gj.com (Wayne Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: VCF III Pix Message-ID: The SoCal VCF idea is a good one. Let's do it. Wayne Smith Exhibit #4 at VCF 3.0 >>> John Lawson 10/05 10:16 AM >>> I took many pictures at VCF, and many pictures while at the Computer Museum. I will be happy to scan them into jpegs, if someone has a good place to store the resulting files. My own website is a little iffy right now as regards anonymous FTP. I imagine there will be around 20-25 pix worth looking at.... I will see how the Computer Museum shots turned out today... I took them in available light. Oh yes... I'd like to see a show of hands of those interested in a SoCal VCF/Swapmeet... it was a lot of fun and I'm pretty sure I will try and have one here early next year. Cheerz John ! ! ! From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 5 13:33:26 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: Identify the following transputer board References: <37FA427A.BD1D6537@olf.com> Message-ID: <99100514363510.09371@vault.neurotica.com> On Tue, 05 Oct 1999, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: >This might be a VME-based transputer board. I have an Sun IPX, is there >anything I can use to connect this board to the Sun and test it out. I remember >that there was once a option for Sun's to add VME to Sparc2 and IPXs, something >called force. Does anyone know where I can get this or something similar. Umm...Hmm. Force made a bunch of VME sparc machines...they had a sparc2 on a 6U VME card, and they're currently making a 6U card with what amounts to a sparc5 on it. It has two sbus slots actually on the vme board, sorta like a miniature 4/600. I just saw one the other day; we just got a new phone switch at a company I'm peripherally associated with. It's a big central office switch made by Summus, and the SS7 processor is one of these Force SS5 machines on a VME board. Neat stuff. I don't think they ever made an Sbus-VME bridge, though, but I could be wrong. Might wanna give them a jingle and see what they say. -Dave McGuire From rmeenaks at olf.com Tue Oct 5 14:15:24 1999 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: Identify the following transputer board References: <37FA427A.BD1D6537@olf.com> <99100514363510.09371@vault.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <37FA4E4C.5D47EC5@olf.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Tue, 05 Oct 1999, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > >This might be a VME-based transputer board. I have an Sun IPX, is there > >anything I can use to connect this board to the Sun and test it out. I remember > >that there was once a option for Sun's to add VME to Sparc2 and IPXs, something > >called force. Does anyone know where I can get this or something similar. > > Umm...Hmm. Force made a bunch of VME sparc machines...they had a sparc2 > on a 6U VME card, and they're currently making a 6U card with what amounts to > a sparc5 on it. It has two sbus slots actually on the vme board, sorta like a > miniature 4/600. I just saw one the other day; we just got a new phone switch > at a company I'm peripherally associated with. It's a big central office > switch made by Summus, and the SS7 processor is one of these Force SS5 > machines on a VME board. Neat stuff. > Well, I am not too familiar with VME, but I think I need some type of bridge, like you said, between the SBUS and VME to get it to work. So, I am probably looking for a VME chasis to house the transputer board and a SBUS card to access the VME chasis. Something like that would probably cost way too much for a hobbyist like myself I would probably have better luck trying to get a SUN3 instead which is VME-based. But unfortunately, I have no desire in getting a Sun3 box. I just dont have the space for it. Oh well, I guess I am going to put this card in storage until I find a way to get it working with the IPX... Ram -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | Senior Software Engineer | OpenLink Financial Inc | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Tue Oct 5 14:18:54 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: VCF blur... Message-ID: I just wanted to say it was nice meeting the few of you I got the chance to in my sprint through VCF this year. I was up on a combo business/vacation trip (read: company pays for vacation if I do a little work there) and had the whole family tagging along...those of you I didn't get to meet might remember the guy with the shaved head brave enough to bring 3 small kids with him... As far as a SoCal version of VCF/swap...I'd probably actually get to stay for more than an hour there, maybe even share my little piece of classic computer heaven on en exhibit table! Sign me up! Cheers, Aaron From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue Oct 5 14:30:23 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: pdp8/e Message-ID: <199910051930.TAA09103@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Well... I found out that the PDP8 stuff was scheduled to be shipped away tomorrow morning. They're only open to the public from 11am - 3pm T, W, TH. So, I went out there.. Luckly I had send that email yesterday, as the guy assumed my interest in the computer was a departmental request, which overrides private interests.. And someone else beat me to the machines! So, lucky me, the machines were held for me. Anyways... The machines were in bad shape. Yes, it was a PDP8/e, and yes there were 2 pdp8/a machines.. But someone had gone crazy with a wire cutters, and all cables were gone or cut (the pdp8/e has a cut power cord). I managed to get the pdp8/e and one of the hard drives set aside, and i did look in the pdp8/e and someone had taken the core memory stuff, but there were still 3/4 of the card slots full of cards, so i can hope this will be useful. At least 2 of the front panel switches are broken, one missing. Someone had already trashed the front panel of one of the pdp8/a units, so i grabbed all the cards. then, I popped the lower part off the other pdp8/a and grabbed all the cards I could, leaving only the few Hex height cards behind the programmers console. So, I have some spare cards now... One backpack full of pdp8/a cards, to be exact... I also obtained a small RS-232 to current loop converter (without the 12Vdc 20ma power supply). And the top rack plate which is for a PDP8/m which is in good shape except for a couple stickers that are on it. All in all, I did what I could. One of my co-workers said he has a pickup, and will drive me out there tomorrow to get those 2 boxes (pdp8/e and HD). I expect the racks will be long gone before I get there, so what I have is what I have. -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu PS: and no, i dont know what I have from the list of cards yet, though I know i have the 3 main cpu boards at the very least... I offered the guy $200, because the core memory was gone, and he said it was way too much, so I asked what he wanted, and he says $30. I reluctantly agreed... From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue Oct 5 14:47:08 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: VCF II in the books In-Reply-To: from Sellam Ismail at "Oct 4, 1999 11:54:53 pm" Message-ID: <199910051947.TAA09207@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > On Mon, 4 Oct 1999, Dwight Elvey wrote: > > > Dave McGuire wrote: > > > > > > This VCF thing...I'd love to take part in such an event. Is it always in > > > the > > > same place, or does it move around like some of the other big events? > > > > If someone was to pay Sam's way, I'm sure he'd consider > > other locations. I wouldn't like it much since I live > > in the area here. The other thing might be to have > > east and west coast ones at 6 month intervals. Someone > > else could run one in, say, Boston, for instance. It is a > > lot of work though. > > Just to tease everyone, I've been approached by someone with the necessary > connections to do a VCF East, and a VCF Europe is about 50% certain. > Count me in at VCF North-Central ;) -Lawrence LeMay From edick at idcomm.com Tue Oct 5 15:09:48 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: Help wanted in dumping EPROMs Message-ID: <001d01bf0f6d$af1c90c0$0400c0a8@winbook> This particular case might be just a bit more involved, since pin numbers are more difficult for the unititiated to track between the 44-pin PLCC and the 40-pin DIP. However, it really doesn't require one be a rocket scientist to figure it out. Like many other tasks it requires attention to detail. The original inquiry came from someone wishing, probably more than anything else, to read the contents of his EPROMs without risking damaging them. It's really not likely that will happen so long as power and ground are connected to the right pins. An additional risk might be that data outputs might be shorted to one or another of the rails. If one is careful enough to avoid those bugaboos, reading the things will be no problem. In fact, I'd recommend one attempt to do this via the EPP port. BTW . . . If your printer port is situated at the usual 0x378, then an outputb to 0x37B will generate a write to the data port (same pins as at 0x378) acocmpanied by an "address strobe" as part of the EPP standard interlocked hardware-handshake. An outportB to 0x37C will generate a "data strobe" in the same manner, requiring of course, that one interpret these correctly and respond with the appropriate "wait" pulse on what would otherwise be the "busy" pin. I'm not "up" on the Pentium instruciton set to such extent that I can guarantee that if one writes a WORD to the odd-addressed 0x37B location it will write the bytes to the two sequentially adjacent locations, but I would anticipate that if one writes a long word (32-bits) to 0x37C, most EPP hardware will transfer the bytes low==>high in order, via the data pins, and acocmpany each byte with a data handshake. That would certainly make it easy to read from a PLCC socket. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, October 05, 1999 12:34 PM Subject: Re: Help wanted in dumping EPROMs >> >> An adapter would not be very challenging to hand-wire, sir. You'll never >> know when you may need it again. > >Agreed. For _reading_ EPROMS, all you need to do is match up the pins >with the same name (I am told that there are rather more problems in >making _programming_ adapters for PLDs, but that's another story). You >can make a 'plug' to fit the EPROM programmer ZIF socket using a >wire-wrap DIL socket (or some pins), and wire it to a PLCC socket. Should >take well under 1 hour.... > >-tony > From owad at applefritter.com Tue Oct 5 16:13:16 1999 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: VCF II in the books Message-ID: <199910052013.NAA25306@swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net> >I wonder if Trenton or Mercer County NJ might work. This was the site >of the excellent Trenton Computer Festival, which, until it became >a mostly PC event, was known for the number of 8's, 11's Vaxes and >Sun3's that were sold and swapped there. Wow, that would be nice. If the show is in NJ, PA, or MD, I'll help out and perhaps exhibit. Tom Owad ------------------------------Applefritter------------------------------ Apple Prototypes, Clones, & Hacks - The obscure, unusual, & exceptional. ------------------------------------------ From daniel at internet.look.ca Tue Oct 5 15:15:59 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: Anyone here have a running PDP 8/s Message-ID: <000d01bf0f6e$717d00a0$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> I just got a PDP 8/s and would like to know if anyone here has a running 8/s. Please e-mail privately @ johnb@internet.look.ca I have the dual bay system with PDP 8/s serial # 260 PC0 read/punch - serial # 50 PC01 controller 139E multiplexer/AD - serial # 126 AA03A - serial # 50 ?????????????????? AA01A - serial #26 A/D AA04 - serial #30 ??????????????? From jpl15 at netcom.com Tue Oct 5 15:54:17 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: It Might be a Mainframe if... Message-ID: I found this and thought it might be of some help to Classiccmpers to aid in their searching/identifying classic systems: ---------------------------------------------------------------- If you could kill someone by tipping it over on them, it might be a mainframe. If the only "mouse" it has is the one living inside it, it might be a mainframe. If you need earth-moving equipment to relocate it, it might be a mainframe. If you've ever lost an oscilloscope inside of it, it might be a mainframe. If it's big enough to be used as an apartment, it might be a mainframe. If it has ever had a card-punch designed for it, it might be a mainframe. If it weighs more than an RV, it might be a mainframe. If lights in the neighborhood dim when it's powered up, it might be a mainframe. If it arrived in its own moving van, it might be a mainframe. If its disk platters are big enough to cook pizzas on, it might be a mainframe. If Michael Jordan would need his entire annual salary to buy one, it might be a mainframe. If keeping all of the manuals together creates a fire hazard, it might be a mainframe. If it's so large that a dropped pen will slowly orbit it, it might be a mainframe. If it's ever been mistaken for a refrigerator, (or if the disk drive has ever been mistaken for a washing machine), it might be a mainframe. If anyone has ever frozen to death in the room where it's kept, it might be a mainframe. If it has a power supply that's bigger than your car, it might be a mainframe. If it has its own postal code, it might be a mainframe. If the operators considered the addition of COBOL to be an upgrade, it might be a mainframe. If it was designed before you were born, it might be a mainframe. If its main power cable is thicker than your neck, it might be a mainframe. If the designers have since died from old age, it might be a mainframe. -- end of forwarded message -- From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue Oct 5 16:09:58 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:42 2005 Subject: pdp8/a boards Message-ID: <199910052109.VAA09399@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Ok, is there some trick to identifing pdp8/a quad height boards? Or maybe most of these boards are not standard DEC issue... I have a lot of boards that have wierd markings on the green or grey handles, all have VG DS on two sets of handles, but one of those is covered with a round sticker with a 3 digit number on it... very strange... -Lawrence LeMay From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 5 15:50:55 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: Help wanted in dumping EPROMs In-Reply-To: <001d01bf0f6d$af1c90c0$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Oct 5, 99 02:09:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 982 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991005/95a73290/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 5 16:13:21 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: pdp8/a boards In-Reply-To: <199910052109.VAA09399@thorin.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Oct 5, 99 09:09:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 865 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991005/a761d49c/attachment.ksh From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue Oct 5 16:31:01 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: pdp8/a boards Message-ID: <199910052131.VAA09443@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Boards from a pair of pdp8/a Hex Height ====================================================== M8433 RL01 disk controller M8417 PDP8 Mos memory M8316 Option Board 1 M8317 Internal Option 2 Quad Height ====================================================== M8320 Bus loads M8330 Timing generator x2 M8300 Major register control x2 M8310 Major registers x2 8/e wire wrap board computer operations inc C 10450-01 Its rather annoying that I cant identify 9 of the quad height boards, so they're probably unusable. This list does not include whatever is in the PDP8/e chassis, which I will pick up tomorrow. Of the 4 hard drives, the middle 2 said rl02 i think. The top and bottom units didnt say what they were, and the hard drive I grabbed was one of the unlabeled ones. Choosen because it didnt have broken off connectors on the back, ie, it was intact. Others either had broken connectors or power cord cut off, or both. Butchers!!! -Lawrence LeMay From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Tue Oct 5 16:36:35 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: Extender cards available In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991004162004.009ab360@mail.bluefeathertech.com> from "Bruce Lane" at Oct 4, 99 04:20:04 pm Message-ID: <199910052136.OAA26986@saul4.u.washington.edu> Bruce Lane wrote: > Now, with that out of the way... VCF was fun this year! There are only > three things that I thought could have been done better. > > 1). If a person had pre-registered for both days, mark as much on the > badge/tag/whatever. Don't require that they stand in line to re-register > the following day. I only avoided that by being an exhibitor. I brought my exhibitor badge on Sunday but forgot the little sticker badge, and I got in anyway. This seems like a good place to mention the bug I found in the registration program. It works like this: 1. Enter name, address, etc. on the first registration screen. 2. Press Return. 3. Enter e-mail, age, income, etc. on the second screen. See pretty (but slow) pop-up menus. 4. Press Esc to change values. 5. See new pop-up menus appear to the right of the places for the old ones. See menus wrap around to the next lines. of the screen. See an ?ILLEGAL QUANTITY ERROR. 6. Try to RUN the program again. See a NOT DIRECT COMMAND (I think) error. 7. Look very inconspicuous. Use the other computer, being very careful to enter the correct values the first time around. Actually, I should probably tell Sellam directly. :) > 3). POST THE OPERATING HOURS on the signs next to the registration table. > I had completely forgotten what time the whole thing was supposed to start > and end, and I had practically no access to the 'net during my trip to > check the VCF web site. I was thinking that a few schedule monitors would be nice. They would work like the airline schedules at the airport, or the schedule screen that the Pacific Science Center used to have (I never found what hardware they used, but I'm sure it's now firmly in the classic category). The advantage of those is that the schedule can be changed. > Other than that, I enjoyed it, though I had other business to tend to, and > as a result was only there for a chunk of Saturday. I'd like to hear how > the tour of the computer museum went. Don't know. Being an exhibitor discombobulated me and messed up my schedule. I never made any of the speeches or the tour. -- Derek From danburrows at mindspring.com Tue Oct 5 16:47:17 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: pdp8/a boards Message-ID: <00b101bf0f7c$199575d0$d252e780@tower166.office> I used to work for VG and I think I have some of the Docs on the PDP8 series of boards. I still support the PDP11 series VG systems and last week upgraded 2 sites to RSX11M+ 4.6 for Y2K issues. I think I still have a complete "digital scanner" that provided the A/D and scan start from that system. Let me know what the 3 digit VG # is and I will see what I can dig up. They were the acq and control for their magnet sector Mass Spectrometers Dan. -----Original Message----- From: Lawrence LeMay To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, October 05, 1999 5:13 PM Subject: pdp8/a boards >Ok, is there some trick to identifing pdp8/a quad height boards? Or maybe >most of these boards are not standard DEC issue... I have a lot of boards >that have wierd markings on the green or grey handles, all have VG DS on >two sets of handles, but one of those is covered with a round sticker with >a 3 digit number on it... very strange... > >-Lawrence LeMay From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Oct 5 16:30:43 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: pdp8/a boards In-Reply-To: <199910052109.VAA09399@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <4.1.19991005142750.03e402e0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 09:09 PM 10/5/99 +0000, Lawrence LeMay wrote: >Ok, is there some trick to identifing pdp8/a quad height boards? Or maybe >most of these boards are not standard DEC issue... I have a lot of boards >that have wierd markings on the green or grey handles, all have VG DS on >two sets of handles, but one of those is covered with a round sticker with >a 3 digit number on it... very strange... The DEC ones are easy, they have reddish/purple handles and the Mxxx number on them (sometimes 3 digits, sometimes 4 digits). The Green ones are usually part of the core stacks. Third party boards had a variety of colors, but the most common I've seen have been either white or yellow. Most boards include a model number in the solder mask (either side). Most have a company name next to a copyright string (again often on the solder mask or as copper traces) --Chuck From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Oct 5 17:07:11 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: Don't look References: <91F077611570D211B0B40008C7244B330236C4BE@LDMS6001> Message-ID: <011001bf0f7d$f9ef4740$15701fd1@jrkeysppt> Thanks enjoyed the pictures, wish I could have gone myself . Maybe next time. ----- Original Message ----- From: Stegeman, Henk HJ SSI-TSEA-331 To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 1999 1:36 AM Subject: Don't look > Hi John, > > Don't visit this site: http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw/jcgm-mfhcc.html > > You might regret it. > From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue Oct 5 17:15:27 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: pdp8/a boards In-Reply-To: <00b101bf0f7c$199575d0$d252e780@tower166.office> from "Daniel T. Burrows" at "Oct 5, 1999 05:47:17 pm" Message-ID: <199910052215.WAA09532@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > I used to work for VG and I think I have some of the Docs on the PDP8 series of > boards. I still support the PDP11 series VG systems and last week upgraded 2 > sites to RSX11M+ 4.6 for Y2K issues. I think I still have a complete "digital > scanner" that provided the A/D and scan start from that system. > > Let me know what the 3 digit VG # is and I will see what I can dig up. They > were the acq and control for their magnet sector Mass Spectrometers > > Dan. 101 (i think the last digit is a 1) 102 202 504 (2 of these) 505 603 644 plus a blue circuit board with blank white handles, from Computer Operations Inc, C 10450-01 it has 3 connectors labeled CDJ2, CCJ1, CDJ1 -Lawrence LeMay From kenm at csus.edu Tue Oct 5 17:51:34 1999 From: kenm at csus.edu (Montgomery, Ken) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: VCF III Pix Message-ID: <85D5318D4F0CD2118C6100A024B355503ADF81@skymail.csus.edu> > I took many pictures at VCF, and many pictures while at the > Computer Museum. I will be happy to scan them into jpegs, if > someone has a good place to store the resulting files. My own > website is a little iffy right now as regards anonymous FTP. > > I imagine there will be around 20-25 pix worth looking at.... I > will see how the Computer Museum shots turned out today... I took > them in available light. Please make sure NOT to post any pictures taken on the Computer Museum tour. That was one of the conditions for allowing us to take any photos there at all. The museum retains the rights to all posted photos of their facilities. If those get posted they may not let us take pictures there again. I'm not talking about the computers on display at the VCF, just the ones at Moffet Field. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 5 17:52:04 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: VCF II in the books References: <199910052013.NAA25306@swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <99100518522302.11605@vault.neurotica.com> On Tue, 05 Oct 1999, Tom Owad wrote: >>I wonder if Trenton or Mercer County NJ might work. This was the site >>of the excellent Trenton Computer Festival, which, until it became >>a mostly PC event, was known for the number of 8's, 11's Vaxes and >>Sun3's that were sold and swapped there. > >Wow, that would be nice. If the show is in NJ, PA, or MD, I'll help out >and perhaps exhibit. Me too! -Dave McGuire From danburrows at mindspring.com Tue Oct 5 18:24:13 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: pdp8/a boards Message-ID: <00cd01bf0f88$ccc33fa0$d252e780@tower166.office> The ones with *** by them I have schematics and board layouts in hand for. IIRC you are in the Twin Cities area - if this is correct contact me off list as there were a couple of these installed there and I will give you contact names and phone #. They may still have some of the old docs around along with the Digital scanner that went with it. Dan > >101 (i think the last digit is a 1) ***Time, Crystal modulo-n Variable frequency >102 **** Counter - comparator >202 >504 (2 of these) ***** ADC control and conditioning >505 **** Digital I/O for starting scan and MS status >603 >644 > >plus a blue circuit board with blank white handles, from Computer >Operations Inc, C 10450-01 it has 3 connectors labeled CDJ2, CCJ1, >CDJ1 > >-Lawrence LeMay From jpl15 at netcom.com Tue Oct 5 18:25:56 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: VCF III Pix In-Reply-To: <85D5318D4F0CD2118C6100A024B355503ADF81@skymail.csus.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, Montgomery, Ken wrote: > > > > I took many pictures at VCF, and many pictures while at the [snipped] > > Please make sure NOT to post any pictures taken on the Computer Museum > tour. That was one of the conditions for allowing us to take any photos > there at all. The museum retains the rights to all posted photos of > their facilities. If those get posted they may not let us take pictures > there again. I'm not talking about the computers on display at the VCF, > just the ones at Moffet Field. > > I am not sure who speaks for the Museum at this point. I have written to them just now to ask for a clarification. I asked re:taking pix and was told that it was no problem, however no-one mentioned posting them. I don't know if they consider a 'hobbyist' type website to be different from commercial exploitation of the images (which of course is obvious...) but I will wait to get an answer from them. I have posted this to the list and also answered Ken privately. Thanks for the heads-up... we of course wish to maintain conditions of great friendly-ness with the Museum. Cheers John From chemif at mbox.queen.it Tue Oct 5 20:59:08 1999 From: chemif at mbox.queen.it (RICCARDO) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: VCF II in the books Message-ID: <199910060159.DAA21083@beta.queen.it> At 16:15 05/10/99 +0100, you wrote: >Sam wrote: > >> Just to tease everyone, I've been approached by someone with the necessary >> connections to do a VCF East, and a VCF Europe is about 50% certain. > >I'm very interested in VCF Europe - could you put me in touch (privately) with >those concerned, please. (I've a good idea who it might be!). I want to help >make this happen! > >It needs to be done. > >Philip. VCF EUROPE?? I would not miss it! I could organize a trip of 20-30 italian collectors. Let me know. Riccardo Romagnoli I-47100 Forl? From jpl15 at netcom.com Tue Oct 5 18:52:51 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: CHM Pix addendum: Message-ID: There is copyright info available at: www.computerhistory.org/copyright It *seems* to me, reading this, that non-commercial dissemination of thier own website images is okay as long as the requirements are met to identify each picture according to their (the Museum's) instructions. I am not quite clear on their wishes re: pictures taken in the Museum and then exhibited non-commercially. As before, I am expecting clarification on this point. Cheers John From bsa3 at cornell.edu Tue Oct 5 18:54:24 1999 From: bsa3 at cornell.edu (Brad Ackerman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: Don't look In-Reply-To: ; from Don Maslin on Tue, Oct 05, 1999 at 11:08:42AM -0700 References: Message-ID: <19991005195424.C15182@cornell.edu> On Tue, Oct 05, 1999 at 11:08:42AM -0700, Don Maslin wrote: > > Does anyone know about a mail browser with two different reply functions: > > - reply to originator > > - reply to reply address ?? > > pine! mutt, too -- when "r" is pressed, mutt asks if you want to send mail to classiccmp. A "y" will do so; "n" will send to the message authour. -- Brad Ackerman N1MNB "44% [of Americans] believe in strict Biblical bsa3@cornell.edu creationism. Four million also believe that PGP: 0x62D6B223 they have been abducted by aliens." http://skaro.pair.com/ -- _The Economist_, 4 Sep 1999 From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Oct 5 18:21:09 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: DG Nova 3 & LSI-11 In-Reply-To: Karl Maftoum "DG Nova 3 & LSI-11" (Oct 5, 17:14) References: Message-ID: <9910060021.ZM4439@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 5, 17:14, Karl Maftoum wrote: > A most interesting find was unearthed this afternoon, a DG Nova 3 with > it's CDC platter drive! Not knowing much about the Nova series of > computers, exactly what would be required to make it work? Nice find :-) I don't have any practical advice or information, though :-( > Also found was a home-built Q-Bus PDP-11 with RX50 drives, a M8192 CPU > Module (What -11 is it?) an RQDX3 controller, a DEC card labelled M7546 > and a card labelle "CTBC Computer Plus 1986" with a connector that leads > to a homemade switch a LED setup. As you may have discovered, the M8192 is a KDJ11-AA, ie an 11/73 processor. If it has -YB marked on it, it's an -AB version, which can accept an FPU, and if it has -YC, it should already have an FPU. M8192's were commonly sold as OEM boards, or as upgrades for 11/23 systems. M7546 is a TKQ50, ie the controller for a TK50 'CompacTape' cartridge drive. Sorry, I can't help with the CTBC card. I assume it has some memory and an SLU? And a card with a boot ROM? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From edick at idcomm.com Tue Oct 5 20:27:02 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: Help wanted in dumping EPROMs Message-ID: <003b01bf0f99$e6d07fa0$0400c0a8@winbook> Yes indeed! The data sheets for the two parts will answer all the questions. All one has to do is to stay awake. I wouldn't make such a statement if I didn't know of instances where one has gone to sleep . . . that's one who shall remain nameless . . . Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, October 05, 1999 3:18 PM Subject: Re: Help wanted in dumping EPROMs >> >> This particular case might be just a bit more involved, since pin numbers >> are more difficult for the unititiated to track between the 44-pin PLCC and >> the 40-pin DIP. However, it really doesn't require one be a rocket > >Hmm... A good data sheet will show the pin numbering and positions for >the PLCC device. > >[..] > >> In fact, I'd recommend one attempt to do this via the EPP port. > >It's not much harder (if at all) to use the plain old standard parallel port. > >The best way to think of an IBM printer port is that it's 12 TTL outputs >and 5 TTL inputs that you can do what you like with. Use a 74157 (or >similar) to multiplex the 8 EPROM data lines onto 4 of the inputs (control >the mux with one of the outputs). Use 8-bit latches (3 would be enough) to >latch 8 of the outputs (might as well make it the standard 'data' lines), >using other outputs to select them. Use the 24 lines you get by doing that >to address the EPROM, and read the data back in via the mux. > >-tony > From rcini at msn.com Tue Oct 5 19:56:38 1999 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: NCR 3125 portable Message-ID: <00be01bf0f9f$aa22fe60$e992fea9@office1> Hello, all: I just got an NCR 3125 tablet pen-based computer with minor problems. The CMOS battery is bad, and although I replaced it, I can't get into the BIOS to reset the clock, etc. Does anyone know how to get into the BIOS setup? Thanks! ----------------------------------- [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW7 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ <---------------------------- reply separator From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Oct 5 21:25:31 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: VCF II in the books In-Reply-To: <99100518522302.11605@vault.neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Oct 5, 1999 6:52: 4 pm" Message-ID: <199910060225.WAA04392@pechter.dyndns.org> > On Tue, 05 Oct 1999, Tom Owad wrote: > >>I wonder if Trenton or Mercer County NJ might work. This was the site > >>of the excellent Trenton Computer Festival, which, until it became > >>a mostly PC event, was known for the number of 8's, 11's Vaxes and > >>Sun3's that were sold and swapped there. > > > >Wow, that would be nice. If the show is in NJ, PA, or MD, I'll help out > >and perhaps exhibit. > > Me too! > > -Dave McGuire > Me too... Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From karlm at blitzen.ise.canberra.edu.au Tue Oct 5 21:54:33 1999 From: karlm at blitzen.ise.canberra.edu.au (Karl Maftoum) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: DG Nova 3 & LSI-11 In-Reply-To: <9910060021.ZM4439@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Oct 5, 17:14, Karl Maftoum wrote: > > > A most interesting find was unearthed this afternoon, a DG Nova 3 with > > it's CDC platter drive! Not knowing much about the Nova series of > > computers, exactly what would be required to make it work? > > Nice find :-) I don't have any practical advice or information, though :-( :-) There appears to be not much information about these on the 'net, were they that common? > As you may have discovered, the M8192 is a KDJ11-AA, ie an 11/73 processor. > If it has -YB marked on it, it's an -AB version, which can accept an FPU, > and if it has -YC, it should already have an FPU. M8192's were commonly > sold as OEM boards, or as upgrades for 11/23 systems. > > M7546 is a TKQ50, ie the controller for a TK50 'CompacTape' cartridge > drive. > > Sorry, I can't help with the CTBC card. > > I assume it has some memory and an SLU? And a card with a boot ROM? The card has two roms on it marked "CPlus High" and "CPlus Low" I'm going down to replace the supply fuse today, hopefully the damage is limited to the two scorched resistors on the board. (not surface mount thank god!) It does have a UART which probably indicates a SLU, i'm still baffled about what that thing was that caused it to blow like that. Karl From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Oct 5 23:36:11 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: Multi-Mac Apple ][ clone Message-ID: <19991006043611.29221.rocketmail@ web605.yahoomail.com> Has anyone out there heard of a Multi-Mac Apple ][ Clone, model MT-600? I was digging along the back shelf in my basement and found one... it's been there for quite some time (a friend abandoned it with me when I was still in college). It appears to be an unremarkable clone, c. mid-1983 (S/N 8306055, suggesting to me a manufacturing date of June, 1983, which jibes with the chip dates). Inside were two cards - a clone language card with a 4-pos DIP switch and a clone dual disk card with PROMs labelled P5 and P6 (like a real Apple Disk ][ card). The RAM is 8 4164s, the ROMs are a wad of 2732s. It booted almost everything I threw at it except a "Castle Wolfenstein" disk that may or may not be defective (I/O error on boot after loading the HELLO program). I only bring it up because I have never seen nor heard of another one. The usual Apple clones I'm familiar with are Lasers and Franklins. This is clearly neither. It was fun booting my box of Apple disks to see what came up. I threw at it some unpublished software from a former employer - "Cross Swords", a game from 1983-1984 that pitted warriors in a fantasy setting against each other with pre-programmed goals in a capture-the-flag scenario. It was mostly done when the company folded following Reader's Digest abandoning the home software market (they sold all of our titles, "Micro Mother Goose", "Alphabet Beasts and Company" and "Micro Habitats", among others). I was most the C-64 guy there, but I did Apple and BBC Acorn programming, too. We were almost exclusively a 6502 shop. IBM games came at the end, but with CGA graphics, our stuff looked better on the C-64 or Apple ][. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From siconic at jasmine.psyber.com Wed Oct 6 02:14:25 1999 From: siconic at jasmine.psyber.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: Tandon 286's available in Springfield, MO Message-ID: I know this is probably of little interest to anyone but all the same, they're free for the taking. Please reply to the original sender. Reply-to: rlgrampa@prodigy.net ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 17:44:56 -0500 From: Kathy Templeton To: donate@vintage.org Subject: Old computers I have two Tandon 286 computers. Each has two removable harddrives. They are in good working order and if I could find someone here in Springfield, MO that would take them I would gladly give them away. Do you want them? I still have both of the keyboards but I use one of them on my new compter (I just liked it). They each have one 5 1/4" floppy 1.2 meg size. Will you pay the shipping costs? Please reply to this email or email me at rlgrampa@prodigy.net. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@verio.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Puttin' the smack down on the man! From siconic at jasmine.psyber.com Wed Oct 6 02:28:14 1999 From: siconic at jasmine.psyber.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: Tandy 2000 Message-ID: Joseph LeFontaine has a Tandy 2000 available for whomever wants it. He's located in Halifax County, Virginia, USA. Please contact him directly. Reply-to: webmaster@authorsnbooks.com Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@verio.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Puttin' the smack down on the man! From kees.stravers at iae.nl Wed Oct 6 04:24:10 1999 From: kees.stravers at iae.nl (kees.stravers@iae.nl) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: AT&T PC 6300 Plus Unix box Message-ID: <19991006092410.3FDAE7D23@iaehv.iae.nl> On Sun, 3 Oct 1999 19:25:40 -0400 (EDT), Bill Yakowenko said: >What makes you think it is a 6286EL? I know next to nothing >about these AT&T boxes, so I never would have guessed anything >besides what it says on the label. Is it just because it's a >286 box? It quite definitely says "6300 PLUS" on the machine >itself and on all of the floppies that I got with it. I have been reading this 6300 discussion for a while, but I still don't know which computer exactly this is. I know the Italian firm Olivetti built the 6300 series for AT&T, just like they built a number of DECpc's for Digital. I only know the original Olivetti's, and can't determine which Olivetti hides behind the 6300 label. The standard 286 Olivetti clone systems I have used, always complained about a parity error if there was RAM memory removed from the system and this was not updated in the cmos setup. The machine would count through the memory that was there and generate the error when it fell off the end. Updating the cmos or adding memory might work. If your 6300 is a 8086 or 8088 then it will not be a standard clone, Olivetti did things their own way in those days and you will really need a manual (which I don't have, the first Olivetti's I met were the 286's). If it is a 286 Olivetti, then there is no key sequence to get into the bios setup screen. You need a setup floppy. Some 286 Olivetti's do have an rudimentary internal setup program, but that only comes up when there is a problem. To get into that setup I used to unplug the floppy drive power cable. Even for the 486 Olivetti's a setup floppy was always needed to get at all the bios setup options. This has always been quite a pain, since there is no universal Olivetti setup program, each machine has its own. The exchange program between AT&T and Olivetti also worked the other way around. I have a 3B2/400 Unix system in my collection (in a part of the Computer Home I haven't photographed yet, so no picture, sorry) that has the Olivetti label on it. I don't dare to use it because I don't know the password, and I do not have any floppies or tapes with the Unix OS for it, so messing it up would be unrepairable. Besides, AT&T wants a great deal of money for the maintenance floppies. This machine will alwas have a special place in my collection though, since it is so heavy I sprained a muscle in my back while lifting it so bad that I needed several weeks of therapy to cure. One of the hazards of the old computer collector... Kees. -- Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - kees.stravers@iae.nl http://www.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/cm/ my Computer Home page http://www.vaxarchive.org/ documentation on old VAX systems http://vaxarchive.sevensages.org/ VAXarchive mirror Net-Tamer V1.08.1 - Registered From GrapeBob at aol.com Wed Oct 6 07:44:37 1999 From: GrapeBob at aol.com (GrapeBob@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: complete system Message-ID: <8932846e.252c9e35@aol.com> I have a complete working IBM PC jr system with monitor. I am in the Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex. If you know of someone needing some or all of this equipment, please refer them to me. It includes the 128k expansion with second disk drive. Bob Thornton GrapeBob@aol.com From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed Oct 6 07:58:23 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: AT&T PC 6300 Plus Unix box In-Reply-To: <19991006092410.3FDAE7D23@iaehv.iae.nl> from "kees.stravers@iae.nl" at "Oct 6, 1999 11:24:10 am" Message-ID: <199910061258.IAA05428@pechter.dyndns.org> > > > On Sun, 3 Oct 1999 19:25:40 -0400 (EDT), Bill Yakowenko said: > >What makes you think it is a 6286EL? I know next to nothing > >about these AT&T boxes, so I never would have guessed anything > >besides what it says on the label. Is it just because it's a > >286 box? It quite definitely says "6300 PLUS" on the machine > >itself and on all of the floppies that I got with it. > > I have been reading this 6300 discussion for a while, but I still don't > know which computer exactly this is. I know the Italian firm Olivetti > built the 6300 series for AT&T, just like they built a number of DECpc's > for Digital. I only know the original Olivetti's, and can't determine > which Olivetti hides behind the 6300 label. The standard 286 Olivetti > clone systems I have used, always complained about a parity error if there > was RAM memory removed from the system and this was not updated in the > cmos setup. The 6300+ has no setting. The memory amount was set by dip switches on the motherboard. It's kind of a 286 XT board with NO CMOS equivalent. It does have a clock battery (nicad) but it has drive type set by dip switches as well. Bill From cfandt at netsync.net Wed Oct 6 08:03:28 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: pdp8/a boards In-Reply-To: References: <199910052109.VAA09399@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <4.1.19991006080033.00a9e690@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 10:13 PM 10/5/99 +0100, Tony Duell said something like: >> >> Ok, is there some trick to identifing pdp8/a quad height boards? Or maybe >> most of these boards are not standard DEC issue... I have a lot of boards >> that have wierd markings on the green or grey handles, all have VG DS on >> two sets of handles, but one of those is covered with a round sticker with > >A guess, based on some boards in my collection... > >VG DS is Vacuum Generators Data Systems or something like that. They're a >company who make (made?) various lab instruments (mass spectrometers, >etc). And the cards are interfaces (ADC, DAC, custom parallel interfaces, >etc) between the PDP8 omnibus (I think I've seen Unibus ones as well) and >the instument. I can believe this Tony as a European vacuum coating equipment company named Balzers AG (from Liechtenstein) once used PDP-8 systems as a process controller. Therefore I feel it would be quite logical that VG would have made partial pressure analyzers, thin film deposition controllers, gas controllers, etc which interfaced directly to Omnibus. They would have sold them for a much more economical price. If any of you had seen the prices Balzers charged for the same type of equipment, you'd probably concur. I understand even today Balzers uses the old DEC Falcon PDP-11 boards in their BPU-430 Process Control system. The previous BPU-340 controller used a custom crate with four Qbus slots and an M8089 (PDP-11/23) of some variety I can't presently recall and a _verrrry_ limited subset of RT-11 of some unknown version. As an aside to illustrate the high cost of getting anything out of Balzers there were several rather minor bugs in the display text of the user interface of that vacuum deposition system used at my ex-employer. Only one moderately significant functional bug and just a couple of valve labels swapped around and the version number not updated (it still said "TEST" in the software program version number at the main screen heading of the application) and one or two other minor display things. I wanted to have those fixed as the operators got a bit confused with the labels swapped around and a large gate valve could be opened in Service Mode while a loadlock chamber was still under vacuum -which is Not Good. Balzers quoted me approximately US$7000 (!) just to clean up their mistakes. There were two specially modified vacuum coaters made from a basic system they had sold to IBM in the late 80's/early 90's and they would have certainly not have lost any money on just fixing those minor problems especially when each of those modified coaters cost over DM2 million (US$1.2 mil) when new. One is at the parent company in Germany and the other in Jamestown. At $7000, Balzers USA and I figure this was Balzers AG's way to tell me to bug off and don't bother them with old software problems. I used a VG Instruments partial pressure analyzer back in the 80's which is likely the same company under the Vacuum Generators marquis as VG Data Systems. >It may well be possible (given schematics, which would take a couple of >afternoons to trace out) to use them for other interfacing tasks. Fancy a >bit of control/data logging ? ;-) I agree. If I could see some interface connectors to external sensors/probes or markings, etc. it could give me more hints as to what its original use was. Larry, any close-up photos online? Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From jpl15 at netcom.com Wed Oct 6 11:29:01 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: VCF Pix final... Message-ID: I have heard from the folks at the Computer History Museum, regarding the non-commercial use of photos taken of the Exhibits. They have asked me to limit the number of pictures to five or less, and to include the credit info specified in their copyright info. Thus shall I do. The pix all came out well. I'll scan the ones I think are best and we can find a classic computer site to put them on... I am trying to get the (wierd) issues resolved vis-a-vis FTP access to my own website... if I can do this quickly, then I'll post them there. Cheers John From jpl15 at netcom.com Wed Oct 6 11:32:12 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: FS: 9 nixie tubes (fwd) Message-ID: Perhaps of interest to someone here... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 19:14:47 -0400 From:n4tua@juno.com To: baswaplist@foothill.net, boatanchors@listserv.tempe.gov Subject: FS: 9 nixie tubes For Sale: (9) National Electronics display tubes. Condition unknown, were working when removed. (5) NL-840, (2) NL-841, (2) with no writing. All 9 for $10 or singles for $1.50 each. Plus shipping. Thank you. <73>, Collin N4TUA n4tua@juno.com " My favorite radios glow in the dark" From rdd at smarty.smart.net Wed Oct 6 11:42:10 1999 From: rdd at smarty.smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: CDC 9766 drives - need rescuing, MD, BWI area Message-ID: <199910061642.MAA08440@smarty.smart.net> Greetings, There are four CDC 9766 disk-pack drives in need of rescue in the BWI Airport area in Maryland... I'm not sure how long they'll be available... hours or days, but if anyone's interested I think they can be had for whatever the scrap buyer's going to pay, which probably isn't very much. As more details become available, I'll post them. Until recently, these drives were working and in service, as far as I know. While I'd love to collect these drives, I don't have room for them at this time; for those who aren't familiar with them, they're rather large and heavy; bigger than the DEC disk pack drives I've seen. You'll need a large, U-haul type truck to move them. There's no loading platform, so getting them up the ramp without a lift or winch won't be easy (not something I'd want to attempt). If no one can save them, I'll see what I can extract and save from their insides. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com Be careful what you wish for --- you http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd may get your wish ...and it might not Tel: (410) 744-4900 be what you were expecting. From rdd at smarty.smart.net Wed Oct 6 12:01:52 1999 From: rdd at smarty.smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: CDC 9766 drives - followup In-Reply-To: <199910061642.MAA08440@smarty.smart.net> from "R. D. Davis" at Oct 6, 99 12:42:10 pm Message-ID: <199910061701.NAA11515@smarty.smart.net> Hi, Upon checking further, I was told that the scrap dealer wasn't called yet, and the company that owns the CDC 9766 drives will try to hold onto them until the end of the week to give someone time to rescue them. If I don't hear from anyone by tomorrow afternoon who definitely will rescue them, I'll have to start disassembling them to at least save some bits of them. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com Be careful what you wish for --- you http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd may get your wish ...and it might not Tel: (410) 744-4900 be what you were expecting. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Oct 6 12:09:43 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: VCF Pix final... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > They have asked me to limit the number of pictures to five or less, >and to include the credit info specified in their copyright info. Bring the actual "chemical" pictures to TRW, and make everyone wonder what the crowd is about around your truck. ;) BTW I like the idea of something SoCal too, we might even get some unique things going if all of us locals dig in our favorite spots. Maybe even pick a big place with a parking lot to hold it in. From jpl15 at netcom.com Wed Oct 6 12:18:23 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: VCF Pix final... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, Mike Ford wrote: [snip] > > Bring the actual "chemical" pictures to TRW, and make everyone wonder what > the crowd is about around your truck. ;) That I am definately planning to do, and I believe I have just found an electronic home for them... more later. [1-3 days] > > BTW I like the idea of something SoCal too, we might even get some unique > things going if all of us locals dig in our favorite spots. Maybe even pick > a big place with a parking lot to hold it in. > Well, I'm thinking more of an indoor thing, because it can be left overnight in relative security... and there is no weather uncertainty. I will start looking for venues, but I'm going to call the Convention Center first and see how much one of the satellite rooms is... also some of the more central big hotels.. near the Airport... we'll see. But, The Unforeseen notwithstanding, I will try to emulate VCF III here in SoCal... Cheers John From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Wed Oct 6 08:33:55 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: Don't look In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199910061733.NAA11446@smtp.interlog.com> On 5 Oct 99 at 11:08, Don Maslin wrote: > > > On Tue, 5 Oct 1999 Jgzabol@aol.com wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > I really have to apologize for repeatedly sending private mail to the list. > > > > Does anyone know about a mail browser with two different reply functions: > > - reply to originator > > - reply to reply address ?? > > pine! > > - don > > > The classiccmp feature of always having the list as reply address > > is a little dangerous. > > > > Regards > > John G. Zabolitzky > > > > > > For Windblows, Pegasus Mail does that. And it's free. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c@xoommail.com Vintage Computer Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/_XOOM/T3C From wsmith at gj.com Wed Oct 6 11:38:59 1999 From: wsmith at gj.com (Wayne Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: Source for HP 85 Tapes Message-ID: I am looking for a source of new, or nearly new, HP 85 tapes. These are HP no. 98200A, and are sometimes referred to as HP200 9800 series. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. From donm at cts.com Wed Oct 6 13:59:17 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: Source for HP 85 Tapes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, Wayne Smith wrote: > I am looking for a source of new, or nearly new, HP 85 tapes. > These are HP no. 98200A, and are sometimes referred to as > HP200 9800 series. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. Wayne, I believe that they are the same as DC-100 tapes. - don From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 6 12:22:47 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: Help wanted in dumping EPROMs In-Reply-To: <003b01bf0f99$e6d07fa0$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Oct 5, 99 07:27:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 487 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991006/5944fcf9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 6 12:43:51 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: pdp8/a boards In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991006080033.00a9e690@206.231.8.2> from "Christian Fandt" at Oct 6, 99 09:03:28 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2565 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991006/c6160e86/attachment.ksh From hrothgar at total.net Wed Oct 6 12:36:05 1999 From: hrothgar at total.net (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: A1 still in business! In-Reply-To: <99100320452003.07014@vault.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 03-Oct-99, Dave McGuire wrote: > NeXTStations can indeed run standalone...just like cubes...they just >don't have expansion slots. Darn. OK, I'll remember that for next time. :) -- Doug Spence Hrothgar's Cool Old Junk Page: hrothgar@total.net http://www.total.net/~hrothgar/museum/ From hrothgar at total.net Wed Oct 6 14:07:21 1999 From: hrothgar at total.net (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: OT?: Ergo "Moby Brick" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 02-Oct-99, Zane H. Healy wrote: >You passed up a "Moby Brick"?!?! I sure did. :/ I had fantasies about making it the cutest Linux box on Earth, but I didn't feel like dealing with the power supply problem. It probably would have been easy, though. Likely it just used standard PC voltages, and the power connector was a DB9 IIRC. Male. It's not the first time I've left something behind and regretted it later. >I've never even seen one, but remember seeing it in PC Magazine about 8 >or 9 years ago. That's one of the few PC's I'd consider adding to my >collection, just because it is such an odd-ball. I've already descended to the level of PC collecting, but not with anything as modern as the Moby Brick yet. :) It's funny, the Moby Brick has more horsepower than any of my current machines. Maybe I balked at getting something so modern. :) >The other one I would consider from this era is the one that was built >into a keyboard. I remember seeing that one in ads. IIRC, the ad stated that it was the first personal computer in a keyboard-only design, which made me laugh. I wish I could find the ad to verify that. -- Doug Spence Hrothgar's Cool Old Junk Page: hrothgar@total.net http://www.total.net/~hrothgar/museum/ From rdd at smarty.smart.net Wed Oct 6 14:33:48 1999 From: rdd at smarty.smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: Autologic APS5-1 Message-ID: <199910061933.PAA01514@smarty.smart.net> Greetings, Does anyone here know anything about an Autologic APS5-1 system, model number APS-5y-70-NFPA Type2? It's a rather large machine with a paper tape punch, a large optical assembly inside the cabinet, a CPU with lights and switches, and a serarate cabinet with a tape drive. Between the 74xx series logic and the appearance of the system, I'm guessing it was made in the 1970's. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com Be careful what you wish for --- you http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd may get your wish ...and it might not Tel: (410) 744-4900 be what you were expecting. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 6 14:33:40 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: A1 still in business! References: Message-ID: <9910061534340P.13419@vault.neurotica.com> On Wed, 06 Oct 1999, Doug Spence wrote: >> NeXTStations can indeed run standalone...just like cubes...they just >>don't have expansion slots. > >Darn. OK, I'll remember that for next time. :) Well, if you're really dying for some...I think, at last count, I have maybe thirty of 'em...No cables or speakerboxes though, which are actually required for the color stations. -Dave McGuire From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed Oct 6 14:39:05 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: pdp 8/e Message-ID: <199910061939.TAA11021@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Well, the pdp8/e power sord was cut off, but there is a 2 foot long hunk of wire. I suppose I'll just wire up a power connector, and they use a good quality extension cable (someday). No rush on that... The core memory planes were removed, of course. Looks like there were at least 3 sets of core in this at one time. The foam along the side of the case has pretty much vaporized and is all over the bus connectors. Whats the general consensus (yeah right, on THIS mailing list i was a consensus...) about removing versis replacing that foam? And one front panel switch is gone, and another is present but broken. The rest at least appear to click up/down properly. Boards that were in my PDP8/e when I recieved it =============================================== M8330 M837 M8655 M8360 M8350 VG DS (dont know the number) M8655 M840 M849 M8310 Loose M8300 Loose G111 Loose. 2 of these G233 Loose. 3 of these (too bad they didnt leave the core planes) M935 2 of these, to connect the second bus VG DS 505 VG DS 102 VG DS 101 VG DS 504 M8320 M847 YH Bootstrap Loader (32 words implemented via an array of diodes) From owad at applefritter.com Wed Oct 6 15:42:18 1999 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: Multi-Mac Apple ][ clone Message-ID: <199910061942.MAA16609@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net> >Has anyone out there heard of a Multi-Mac Apple ][ Clone, model MT-600? I >was digging along the back shelf in my basement and found one... it's been >there for quite some time (a friend abandoned it with me when I was still in >college). That one's new to me. Is it in a similar form factor to the Apple II, or something more original? >It appears to be an unremarkable clone, c. mid-1983 (S/N 8306055, suggesting >to me a manufacturing date of June, 1983, which jibes with the chip dates). >Inside were two cards - a clone language card with a 4-pos DIP switch and >a clone dual disk card with PROMs labelled P5 and P6 (like a real Apple >Disk ][ card). The RAM is 8 4164s, the ROMs are a wad of 2732s. It booted >almost everything I threw at it except a "Castle Wolfenstein" disk that may >or may not be defective (I/O error on boot after loading the HELLO program). I run a site that documents Apple clones. May I quote you on ? Tom Owad ------------------------------Applefritter------------------------------ Apple Prototypes, Clones, & Hacks - The obscure, unusual, & exceptional. ------------------------------------------ From owad at applefritter.com Wed Oct 6 15:47:02 1999 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: A1 still in business! Message-ID: <199910061947.MAA19740@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net> >> NeXTStations can indeed run standalone...just like cubes...they just >>don't have expansion slots. > >Darn. OK, I'll remember that for next time. :) I had a NeXTStation TurboColor for a while, which required a sound box to plug the keyboard, mouse, and monitor into. If the unit you're looking at is anything like mine, it would be rather useless without that part. Tom Owad ------------------------------Applefritter------------------------------ Apple Prototypes, Clones, & Hacks - The obscure, unusual, & exceptional. ------------------------------------------ From rdd at smarty.smart.net Wed Oct 6 14:51:10 1999 From: rdd at smarty.smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: Autologic APS5-1 available, MD, BWI airport area In-Reply-To: <199910061933.PAA01514@smarty.smart.net> from "R. D. Davis" at Oct 6, 99 03:33:48 pm Message-ID: <199910061951.PAA04674@smarty.smart.net> The system that I mentioned in a previous message, described below, is available if anyone would like it, and can rescue it this week. If someone doesn't claim it, it will be hauled away and scrapped soon, possibly by this weekend or the beginning of the week. :-( Quothe R. D. Davis: > Does anyone here know anything about an Autologic APS5-1 system, model > number APS-5y-70-NFPA Type2? It's a rather large machine with a paper > tape punch, a large optical assembly inside the cabinet, a CPU with > lights and switches, and a serarate cabinet with a tape drive. > Between the 74xx series logic and the appearance of the system, I'm > guessing it was made in the 1970's. If no one can take it, all I can do at this time is pull some of the bits out of it, like the CPU and paper tape reader. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com Be careful what you wish for --- you http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd may get your wish ...and it might not Tel: (410) 744-4900 be what you were expecting. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 6 14:53:10 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: A1 still in business! References: <199910061947.MAA19740@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <9910061554490T.13419@vault.neurotica.com> On Wed, 06 Oct 1999, Tom Owad wrote: >>> NeXTStations can indeed run standalone...just like cubes...they just >>>don't have expansion slots. >> >>Darn. OK, I'll remember that for next time. :) > >I had a NeXTStation TurboColor for a while, which required a sound box to >plug the keyboard, mouse, and monitor into. If the unit you're looking >at is anything like mine, it would be rather useless without that part. This is true...By "standalone" I meant "with no other computers". A NeXT color station (turbo or otherwise) requires a sound box and a "Y cable" to run. The Y cable connects to the base slab, the sound box, and the monitor. The keyboard connects to the sound box (which is why it's required whether you want sound or not). The going rate for NeXT sound boxes on eBay is about $20. -Dave McGuire From cfandt at netsync.net Wed Oct 6 15:07:40 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: pdp8/a boards In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19991006080033.00a9e690@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <4.1.19991006154856.00a81b50@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 06:43 PM 10/6/99 +0100, Tony Duell said something like: >> >VG DS is Vacuum Generators Data Systems or something like that. They're a >> >company who make (made?) various lab instruments (mass spectrometers, >> >etc). And the cards are interfaces (ADC, DAC, custom parallel interfaces, >> >etc) between the PDP8 omnibus (I think I've seen Unibus ones as well) and >> >the instument. >> >> I can believe this Tony as a European vacuum coating equipment company > >What I didn't tell you is that my father is a physical chemist and has >done a _lot_ of vacuum work. He knows Vacuum Generators 'of old', and has >few good things to say about them. Personally, I can't comment, so please >don't flame me. Re: VG, I agree with your dad! :-) > >He is _sure_ though that the VG boards in my collection come from the >same 'Vacuum Generators' company. > >> named Balzers AG (from Liechtenstein) once used PDP-8 systems as a process >> controller. Therefore I feel it would be quite logical that VG would have > >Oh the PDP8 (and the PDP11, and the Nova, and...) was used in all sorts of >instrumentation systems. I had to repair some kind of device that forced Indeed Balzers' use of the PDP-8 and -11 is not at all unusual for the time. Especially in vacuum coater process controls, one needs realtime response to events both to achieve a very accurate coating thickness and to handle drastic things like a catastophic leak, E-gun arc-over, etc. >mercury into a sample (and thus measured the volume of the pores) which >had an Intersil 6100 inside. I am told that older models had a PDP8/e >there. Similarly my Nova 1210 came off an electron microscope, and I have >repaired a PDP11-a-like on anther similar electron microscope... Bausch & Lomb Analytical Systems Division made a microscope Image Analysis system back in the 70's using Nova 1200's and later Nova 4's. I used to work for the company and that's where I got my Nova 1200, high speed tape reader and docs. > >> made partial pressure analyzers, thin film deposition controllers, gas >> controllers, etc which interfaced directly to Omnibus. They would have sold >> them for a much more economical price. If any of you had seen the prices >> Balzers charged for the same type of equipment, you'd probably concur. > >The prices these companies charged for even the simplest spares/upgrades >made DEC look _very_ cheap ;-) Yeah, Balzers wanted US$25k to simply upgrade the Process Controller from basically a floppy disk-based 11/23 to a Falcon with hard disk plus some other propriatary hardware. They also wanted US$350 for a small circular phosphor bronze stamping, gold plated, used as the crystal contacts for the six-position deposition thickness controller. Couldn't have been more than 40 mm in diameter. We had to buy that part as the controller was not operable. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From wsmith at gj.com Wed Oct 6 15:25:42 1999 From: wsmith at gj.com (Wayne Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: Source for HP 85 Tapes Message-ID: >On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, Wayne Smith wrote: > >> I am looking for a source of new, or nearly new, HP 85 tapes. >> These are HP no. 98200A, and are sometimes referred to as >> HP200 9800 series. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. > >Don Maslin 10/06 11:59 AM > >Wayne, I believe that they are the same as DC-100 tapes. > > - don Don: A little research has proven you correct as usual. They are DC-100A's. Thanks for your help. Wayne ! ! ! From jott at ee.nd.edu Wed Oct 6 15:24:09 1999 From: jott at ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:43 2005 Subject: Giving stuff away.... In-Reply-To: <81ABF6783ED5D111816E00A0C997EB9536640C@FTPSERVER1> Message-ID: Hello - I am interested in the scsi controller if you still have it. What will the shipping be? john *********************************************************************** * John Ott * Email: jott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * *********************************************************************** On Mon, 4 Oct 1999, Todd Jaspers wrote: > > Hi Everyone, my roommate and I are moving to a larger apartment and > we have tons of computer junk and my girlfriend won't let me keep it at her > house! I really have no use for it but I don't want it to go to waste if > someone has a use for it. > > > 1) MGA Matrox PCI graphics card. 1mb ram. pretty slow. > > 2) RampAT 16 bit card. Adds 4 SIMM slots to any computer with a 16 bit ISA > card slow. Manual and instructions included. > > 3) various CGA and Monochrome 8-bit graphics cards. > > 4) various old 286 and AT mother boards IBM. > > 5) A whole bunch of old computer manuals. Please take the whole lot. > > 6) E-ISA Scsi controller 32-bit > > Everything is free, just pay for the shipping. > > Thanks!! > > Todd > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Oct 6 15:58:32 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:44 2005 Subject: pdp 8/e In-Reply-To: <199910061939.TAA11021@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <4.1.19991006134239.00bf35d0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> >Well, the pdp8/e power sord was cut off, but there is a 2 foot long hunk of >wire. I suppose I'll just wire up a power connector, and they use a good >quality extension cable (someday). No rush on that... That's pretty easy to replace, make sure you use a heavy gauge. >The core memory planes were removed, of course. Looks like there were at >least 3 sets of core in this at one time. The foam along the side of the >case has pretty much vaporized and is all over the bus connectors. Whats >the general consensus (yeah right, on THIS mailing list i was a consensus...) >about removing versis replacing that foam? The foam helps keep the cards from knocking against each other. Thus it is good to replace, it is also a good idea to remove the old foam and vaccum out the back plane! Many times plugging a card into a slot that has foam wedged in it gives bad results. >And one front panel switch is gone, and another is present but broken. The >rest at least appear to click up/down properly. I've got a spare switches in the darker orange but may not have one in the lighter yellow. Let me know if you'd like me to send them out to you. Tell us, did you get the "long" box or the "short" box? (the long box has two back planes in it connected by a row of jumpers.) >Boards that were in my PDP8/e when I recieved it >=============================================== This one is Timing/Control >M8330 These two go next to it. >M8310 Loose >M8300 Loose The sequence is M8330 M8310 M8300 (and if you get an M8340 and M8341 they will go between the 8330 and the 8310) Normally they are connected across the top with top connectors. These look like short two plug back planes. If you don't have these see if you can go back and root around for them. In the 8/e/f/m you need at least 6 (4 for memory, 2 for the CPU) This one: >M837 Gives you extended memory control, up to 8 "pages" for a total of 32K of core. It isn't required to operate the machine but without it you are limited to 4K of core. This one: >M8655 Is a serial port. (and the nicer one too!) You can run this one at RS-232 levels right into your PC at 4800 or 9600 baud. See comments on Doug Jones and Aaron Nabil's sites for modifications and building cables. These two: >M8360 >M8350 Make up a positive bus interface and a DMA (data break) card. >VG DS (dont know the number) Another serial port: >M8655 This one I'm drooling over: >M840 This is the high speed paper tape interface. It connects to the PC04 reader/punch. This one >M849 is an RF shield it sits between the core stacks and the CPU to protect them from stray magnetic fields that might perturb their bits. This is: >G111 Loose. 2 of these >G233 Loose. 3 of these (too bad they didnt leave the core planes) Parts for 2.5 8K core stacks. You need the H212 core mats to complete the picture. these indicate you got the "long" box yes? >M935 2 of these, to connect the second bus [snip] These are the bus loads and go in the last slot. >M8320 pretty clear what this does. Pretty cool though. >M847 YH Bootstrap Loader (32 words implemented via an array of diodes) All in all a pretty good catch. While it may be hard to get core for this thing you can find MOS memory systems at various places. The thing to worry about will be the top connectors. If you don't have them you can make them but it isn't fun. Some folks on the pdp8-lovers list might have spares. Other questions: What was the date of manufacture? (on the back by PSU) Is the front panel lamps or LEDs? --Chuck From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed Oct 6 16:07:33 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:44 2005 Subject: pdp8/a boards In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991006154856.00a81b50@206.231.8.2> from Christian Fandt at "Oct 6, 1999 4: 7:40 pm" Message-ID: <199910062107.RAA06379@pechter.dyndns.org> > Bausch & Lomb Analytical Systems Division made a microscope Image Analysis > system back in the 70's using Nova 1200's and later Nova 4's. I used to > work for the company and that's where I got my Nova 1200, high speed tape > reader and docs. > > Regards, Chris > -- -- > Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian > Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net > Member of Antique Wireless Association > URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ They also made a cardiac monitoring system for CCU's and ICU's out of an 11/35 with a bunch of DR11B's ano other stuff. The one I saw looked like a beta test -- one of the oldest 11/35's (basically an OEM'd 11/40) I'd ever seen. Wierd. They replaced it with all new HP gear that year. I was working on one of these antiques about 1985 while a patient went Code Blue in the next room. Unsettling at 2:30 AM. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From ToddJ at symresources.com Wed Oct 6 16:10:26 1999 From: ToddJ at symresources.com (Todd Jaspers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:44 2005 Subject: Giving stuff away.... Message-ID: <81ABF6783ED5D111816E00A0C997EB9536645A@FTPSERVER1> Hi, sorry it's already been called for. Todd -----Original Message----- From: John Ott [mailto:jott@ee.nd.edu] Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 4:24 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Giving stuff away.... Hello - I am interested in the scsi controller if you still have it. What will the shipping be? john *********************************************************************** * John Ott * Email: jott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * *********************************************************************** On Mon, 4 Oct 1999, Todd Jaspers wrote: > > Hi Everyone, my roommate and I are moving to a larger apartment and > we have tons of computer junk and my girlfriend won't let me keep it at her > house! I really have no use for it but I don't want it to go to waste if > someone has a use for it. > > > 1) MGA Matrox PCI graphics card. 1mb ram. pretty slow. > > 2) RampAT 16 bit card. Adds 4 SIMM slots to any computer with a 16 bit ISA > card slow. Manual and instructions included. > > 3) various CGA and Monochrome 8-bit graphics cards. > > 4) various old 286 and AT mother boards IBM. > > 5) A whole bunch of old computer manuals. Please take the whole lot. > > 6) E-ISA Scsi controller 32-bit > > Everything is free, just pay for the shipping. > > Thanks!! > > Todd > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 6 16:13:50 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:44 2005 Subject: pdp 8/e References: <4.1.19991006134239.00bf35d0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <99100617162512.13419@vault.neurotica.com> On Wed, 06 Oct 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: >Tell us, did you get the "long" box or the "short" box? (the long box has >two back planes in it connected by a row of jumpers.) [...] > Is the front panel lamps or LEDs? If it's a short box, or has LEDs instead of incandescent lamps, that'd make it an 8/f or an 8/m according to the '73 Small Computer Handbook. -Dave McGuire From Innfogra at aol.com Wed Oct 6 16:17:13 1999 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:44 2005 Subject: Autologic APS5-1 Message-ID: <0.2b015f54.252d1659@aol.com> These are large phototypesetting machines of the first or second generation. Autologic designed most of their own boards but sometimes OEMed CPUs. It would be wise to check the CPU cabinet. Also check to see if the paper tape reader is a punch also. If it is working it could be a museum piece. I bet there are few left. Paxton From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Oct 6 16:52:00 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:44 2005 Subject: Source for HP 85 Tapes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991006165200.22cff42c@mailhost.intellistar.net> Wayne, I have a case of 100 of them. All are new and still in the shrink wrap. How many do you want? >and are sometimes referred to as >HP200 9800 series. What??? The 9800 series is the series of HP desktop compluter/calculators that includes the 9805, 9810, 9820, 9830, 9815, 9825, 9835, 9845, 9816, 9826, etc. A few of them use the 98200 tape but that's the only thing they have in common. Joe At 09:38 AM 10/6/99 -0700, you wrote: >I am looking for a source of new, or nearly new, HP 85 tapes. >These are HP no. 98200A, and are sometimes referred to as >HP200 9800 series. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. > > > From rdd at smarty.smart.net Wed Oct 6 16:42:23 1999 From: rdd at smarty.smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:44 2005 Subject: Autologic APS5-1 In-Reply-To: <0.2b015f54.252d1659@aol.com> from "Innfogra@aol.com" at Oct 6, 99 05:17:13 pm Message-ID: <199910062142.RAA23646@smarty.smart.net> Quothe Innfogra@aol.com: > These are large phototypesetting machines of the first or second generation. > Autologic designed most of their own boards but sometimes OEMed CPUs. It > would be wise to check the CPU cabinet. Also check to see if the paper tape > reader is a punch also. > > If it is working it could be a museum piece. I bet there are few left. As far as I know, it was working before being powered down. If this is a museum piece, could someone affiliated with a museum please come forth soon before this machine is scrapped, which could occur as soon as this weekend if no one claims it. If a museum is actually interested in it, I'm sure that arrangements can be made to hold it a short while longer until its removal and transport can be arranged. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com Be careful what you wish for --- you http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd may get your wish ...and it might not Tel: (410) 744-4900 be what you were expecting. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Oct 6 16:43:02 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:44 2005 Subject: CDC 9766 drives - need rescuing, MD, BWI area In-Reply-To: <199910061642.MAA08440@smarty.smart.net> (rdd@smarty.smart.net) References: <199910061642.MAA08440@smarty.smart.net> Message-ID: <19991006214302.885.qmail@brouhaha.com> > There are four CDC 9766 disk-pack drives in need of rescue in the BWI ... > this time; for those who aren't familiar with them, they're rather > large and heavy; bigger than the DEC disk pack drives I've seen. They use the same packs as DEC RM05 drives, but have a standard SMD interface. DEC drives were made by CDC, but with a bastardized interface that only works with DEC's RM05-to-Massbus adapter. The 9766 are very good drives, but they require a lot of power (though not as much as an RP06). From edick at idcomm.com Wed Oct 6 16:56:51 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:44 2005 Subject: Help wanted in dumping EPROMs Message-ID: <001e01bf1045$ce26cb60$0400c0a8@winbook> I have an old multibus-1 board from "Little Machines" on which the 186's and '286's among other things are wired backwards and soldered to the board because the original Intel data sheet didn't distinguish between the top and bottom of the JEDEC "A" package which is a leadless ceramic chip carrier of the type often seen in early PC/AT types. The board is so busy you can barely see any of the surface, and it's much the same on what ought to be the wiring side, as there are oodles of passives and other small-outline parts, I'd say as many as 1000, on the "back" of the board, since there wasn't room for anything more on the "front" where there are well over 100 DIP packages of various sizes. This solder-in of the leadless chip carrier package was done interestingly enough, in that the pins from an LCC socket were aparently extracted and soldered, one-by-one, to the board and the device inserted UNDER them in order to allow them to be soldered from the top. It can happen to anyone, I guess. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 1:14 PM Subject: Re: Help wanted in dumping EPROMs >> >> Yes indeed! The data sheets for the two parts will answer all the >> questions. All one has to do is to stay awake. I wouldn't make such a >> statement if I didn't know of instances where one has gone to sleep . . . >> that's one who shall remain nameless . . . > >Make it 2, OK :-). I very nearly wired up a transputer socket >mirror-reflected because one book showed the chip from the top and >another showed the socket from the bottom. I caught the error just in time... > >-tony > From wsmith at gj.com Wed Oct 6 17:03:51 1999 From: wsmith at gj.com (Wayne Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:44 2005 Subject: Source for HP 85 Tapes Message-ID: >>>> Joe 10/06 4:52 PM >>> >> >>and are sometimes referred to as >>HP200 9800 series. > > What??? The 9800 series is the series of HP desktop >compluter/calculators that includes the 9805, 9810, 9820, 9830, 9815, 9825, >9835, 9845, 9816, 9826, etc. A few of them use the 98200 tape but that's >the only thing they have in common. > > Joe > I know it sounds strange but I have a tape that I received with the 85 labeled "HP200 Series 9800" made by Hewlett Packard. It is identical to the other 98200A tapes I have. I will post a scan of the label if anyone's interested. Wayne ! ! ! From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Oct 6 16:46:42 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:44 2005 Subject: pdp 8/e In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991006134239.00bf35d0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> (message from Chuck McManis on Wed, 06 Oct 1999 13:58:32 -0700) References: <4.1.19991006134239.00bf35d0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <19991006214642.905.qmail@brouhaha.com> > >M837 > Gives you extended memory control, up to 8 "pages" for a total of 32K of > core. It isn't required to operate the machine but without it you are > limited to 4K of core. Just to be nit-picky, I'll point out that what this gives you is 8 "fields" of 4KW each. On the PDP-8, a page is much smaller; 128 words IIRC. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Oct 6 17:58:53 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:44 2005 Subject: Multi-Mac Apple ][ clone Message-ID: <19991006225853.8386.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tom Owad wrote: > >Has anyone out there heard of a Multi-Mac Apple ][ Clone, model MT-600? > That one's new to me. Is it in a similar form factor to the Apple II, or > something more original? It's a cheap knockoff of the Apple ][ style, down to the wedge-shaped cable cutouts on the back. They did change the lid a little. It doesn't have the same fastener as an original, nor does the bottom slope up in the front. Other than that... they are vey similar. > I run a site that documents Apple clones. May I quote you on > ? Yes. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From cmcmanis at freegate.com Wed Oct 6 17:59:48 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:44 2005 Subject: Cray C-90 available Message-ID: <4.1.19991006155909.00b952b0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Appears to have some powdery stuff lodged in between the circuit boards... http://www.ncep.noaa.gov/director/supercomputer/ From edick at idcomm.com Wed Oct 6 17:35:49 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:44 2005 Subject: S-100 Bus Message-ID: <002c01bf1051$7d800300$0400c0a8@winbook> There's a copy of the IEEE Std 696 in my lap. I've been searching for this document in "the pile" for quite some time and it's held up my work on a bus probe for the S-100. I intend to run the S-100 from my PC and have completed circuitry to enable transfer of data from the PC to the probe at a maximum of about 2 MHz. Now, this is entirely fast enough to run the bus, with the exception that it probably can't run it continuously at that rate, hence I've contemplated inserting a state machine to operate the bus automatically in a series of operations while sampling the activity on the bus at the same resolution as that at which it is being driven, e.g. 8 MHz for a 2 MHz processor clock, and more or less at that same proportion otherwise. Unfortunately, I'm not convinced that it's necessary for me to have a really long sample memory (has adverse effects on price and circuit complexity). What's more, though I've considered including a large crosspoint switch for both writing and reading signals from the S-100, at real time, I'm not sure it will be of sufficient value to the user public. Its purpose is to allow compaction of the data transfers during a simulated bus transaction in real time. What's more, in order to get 2 MHz throughput, even in bursts, it requires I operate the device at around 100 MHz internally, which will be both costly and difficult. Originally I intended this thing strictly as a diagnostic tool. When I noted that IMSAI is bringing back its front panel board and the box to accomodate it, I figured it might be useful to provide a fairly automated method for testing and debugging the thing, including tests for shorts, crosstalk, I figured that the notion of putting a Pentium-class machine in an IMSAI box might not satisfy everyone's debugging an testing needs, particularly if they wanted to run REAL '70's era hardware. My intention is to allow the PC to function as the front-panel, and, to small extent, as a combined pattern generator/logic analyzer, for numerous purposes ranging from backplane troubleshooting to peripheral testing. The plan is to provide functional support for things like block transfers, I/O-to-memory and memory-to-I/O as well as memory-to memory-transfers. Memory testing, at least superficially will be supported as well. I'm contemplating a graphical interface for purposes of stimulating the bus, though, again, I've yet to see whether that's useful enough to warrant the effort. This is YOUR big chance to have input into the design of this device, assuming you have some idea of how YOU'd use it. I've got to break the functional sections up enough that the device can be sold as a "kit" not requiring FCC approval, so much of the cost will be in things like adapter sockets for the FPGA's and CPLD's, which often outcost the IC's by 10x. Since FCC approval will goose up the cost by 100x, I'm trying to avoid that. If you're an S-100 user, particularly if you have experience in bringing up a system from totally dead to totally alive, I'd certainly like to see what your impression of your needs from such a device might be. Dick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991006/8cefba46/attachment.html From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed Oct 6 18:36:56 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:44 2005 Subject: pdp 8/e In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991006134239.00bf35d0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from Chuck McManis at "Oct 6, 1999 01:58:32 pm" Message-ID: <199910062336.XAA18331@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > > >And one front panel switch is gone, and another is present but broken. The > >rest at least appear to click up/down properly. > > I've got a spare switches in the darker orange but may not have one in the > lighter yellow. Let me know if you'd like me to send them out to you. The two bad switches are yellow ones. The switch mechanism is there, its the paddle that is broken in one case, missing in the other. Though if I cant get yellow someplace, then any color is better than a non-operational computer... > > Tell us, did you get the "long" box or the "short" box? (the long box has > two back planes in it connected by a row of jumpers.) Long box, of course ;) > > This one: > >M8655 > > Is a serial port. (and the nicer one too!) You can run this one at RS-232 > levels right into your PC at 4800 or 9600 baud. See comments on Doug Jones > and Aaron Nabil's sites for modifications and building cables. And I just noticed that I actually have one usable cable, though it is very short. It runs from one of the serial boards, to just barely out side the back of the case, and it is labeled VT55. A white plastic connector, single line of connectors, and if i recall correctly, 6 wires connected. Some sort of current loop connector i'm assuming. > > These two: > >M8360 > >M8350 > > Make up a positive bus interface and a DMA (data break) card. Which is nice. But what does this get me in the real world? > > This one I'm drooling over: > >M840 > > This is the high speed paper tape interface. It connects to the PC04 > reader/punch. Yep. Unfortunately I dont have any peripherals. Except the one RL01, and apparently I dont have an interface board for that. > > This is: > >G111 Loose. 2 of these > >G233 Loose. 3 of these (too bad they didnt leave the core planes) > Parts for 2.5 8K core stacks. You need the H212 core mats to complete the > picture. I've always wanted a PDP8/e. Always. Which is why I already had in my possession 2 complete 3 board sets of core memory, 8K per set, for the PDP8/e! And I bought another 8K plane on ebay this summer. these things tend to attract one another... > > All in all a pretty good catch. While it may be hard to get core for this > thing you can find MOS memory systems at various places. The thing to worry > about will be the top connectors. If you don't have them you can make them > but it isn't fun. Some folks on the pdp8-lovers list might have spares. I think I have enough. Not if I want to get a third set of core memory installed, but its a long shot that the third set will work anyways. At the very least the boards have to be tuned to work together, or some such magic incantation uttered. > > Other questions: > What was the date of manufacture? (on the back by PSU) > Is the front panel lamps or LEDs? > Its standard pdp8/e lights as far as I know. Manufacture date is 1976. If I read the codes correctly, its the 24th week of 76, and then some other paper sticker on the top case, applied with scotch tape and only partially still existing, mentions october 11, 1976, which I assume is when some company then added their boards to make a specialized product. One strange thing... The front panel doesnt say Maynard, Massachusettes, as I expected... it says something like Galway, Ireland. Oh my GOD, its the RARE Galway version! I can sell this on ebay and have more money than Bill Gates! er, aHem.. I'm much calmer now... Ok, so what do I need to obtain from here.. looks like I have the basics of a PDP8/e system with serial ports. High speed paper tape reader interface, but no paper tape reader... What would make this a minimal usable system? Just adding a TTY33, and getting someone to copy a few paper tapes, perhaps? If the core memory doesnt work out, is the MOS memory actually affordable? Anyone willing to tell me some PDP parts suppliers that may have some interface boards, like whatever I need to hook up that RL01 (what exactly is a RL01 anyways). Maybe I should be looking to add floppy drives, etc. OR, are people using IBM's as a terminal, and running some program that pretends to be an attached paper tape reader/punch unit? That might do for starters, though its not anywhere near as satisfying. -Lawrence LeMay From elvey at hal.com Wed Oct 6 19:19:52 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:44 2005 Subject: S-100 Bus In-Reply-To: <002c01bf1051$7d800300$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <199910070019.RAA04769@civic.hal.com> "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > > If you're an S-100 user, particularly if you have experience in bringing up a > system from totally dead to totally alive, I'd certainly like to see what your > impression of your needs from such a device might be. > > Dick Hi Dick I've only brought one IMSAI up from the dead. I only needed a dual trace oscilloscope but I realize that isn't always the best option. Way back when, I worked for Intel and was responsible for test of the UPP product. This had a 4040 on it. I built a cable and interface that allowed one to replace the 4040 with a Series II development system. It was not a full logic analyzer, it just did normal read/write to ROM, RAM and I/O. This combined with an oscilloscope made a good trouble shooting tool. There isn't really a need to do 100 MHz operations to make a useful tool. One can make variable delays to adjust read and write timing to look for timing issues. The code that ran on the Series II was done in Forth. This way, one could quickly write a particular test routine for the particular problem one was trouble shooting, like one would do on a Sun with open boot. This would be quite hard to do in a GUI without some kind of command line macro ability ( the problem with GUI's is that, although a picture is worth a thousand words, they are often not the thousand words that you currently need ). Trouble shooting requires flexibility in test conditions that are much more varied than what would be used to simply go-nogo test. Dwight From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Oct 6 19:21:17 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:44 2005 Subject: Next steps (was Re: pdp 8/e) In-Reply-To: <199910062336.XAA18331@thorin.cs.umn.edu> References: <4.1.19991006134239.00bf35d0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991006170354.03f8f2c0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> >The two bad switches are yellow ones. The switch mechanism is there, its >the paddle that is broken in one case, missing in the other. Though if I >cant get yellow someplace, then any color is better than a non-operational >computer... Well, let me know. I've got a toasted 8/M front panel that I've used to restore an 8/M and an 8/F. (one of the colors matches) >And I just noticed that I actually have one usable [M8655] cable, though it is very >short. It runs from one of the serial boards, to just barely out side the >back of the case, and it is labeled VT55. A white plastic connector, single >line of connectors, and if i recall correctly, 6 wires connected. Some >sort of current loop connector i'm assuming. Yup, that would be the DEC "standard" three loop current loop interface. (Tx loop, Rx loop, reader-run loop). You can get a compatible BERG connector for the 8655 from Digi-key and build your own RS-232 cable. Check out the schematics on Dave Gesswins(sp?) page. >> Make up a positive bus interface and a DMA (data break) card. >Which is nice. But what does this get me in the real world? I believe they are required to support the DECTape interface but Eric Smith would know for sure. >Yep. Unfortunately I dont have any peripherals. Except the one RL01, and >apparently I dont have an interface board for that. I don't believe DEC made a Quad RL controller. I've only seen the M8433 which is a hex wide RL controller that plugs into the PDP-8/a. But you also said you have the Omnibus expansion stuff, which means that if you get a PDP-8/a backplane you can jumper over to it and install the RL controller there... >I've always wanted a PDP8/e. Always. Which is why I already had in my >possession 2 complete 3 board sets of core memory, 8K per set, for the >PDP8/e! And I bought another 8K plane on ebay this summer. these things >tend to attract one another... Bravo! >I think I have enough [top connectors]. Not if I want to get a third set >of core memory >installed, but its a long shot that the third set will work anyways. At >the very least the boards have to be tuned to work together, or some >such magic incantation uttered. Yes, I have just such a stack and its a bit daunting at the moment. >Its standard pdp8/e lights as far as I know. Manufacture date is 1976. Hmm, look at the front panel from the front, then look over the top and on what is the left hand side, see if it has one power line hooked up or two. If it is only one, there may be LEDs. I thought they didn't make any lamp panels after '74 but I'd love to be proven wrong. >One strange thing... The front panel doesnt say Maynard, Massachusettes, as >I expected... it says something like Galway, Ireland. Oh my GOD, its >the RARE Galway version! I can sell this on ebay and have more money >than Bill Gates! er, aHem.. I'm much calmer now... Now _that_ is fascinating. If you get a chance read the part number of the panel off the back and post it. Also be _sure_ the power supply is looking for 110V and not 220V!! >Ok, so what do I need to obtain from here.. looks like I have the basics >of a PDP8/e system with serial ports. High speed paper tape reader interface, >but no paper tape reader... What would make this a minimal usable system? >Just adding a TTY33, and getting someone to copy a few paper tapes, perhaps? >If the core memory doesnt work out, is the MOS memory actually affordable? >Anyone willing to tell me some PDP parts suppliers that may have some >interface boards, like whatever I need to hook up that RL01 (what exactly >is a RL01 anyways). Maybe I should be looking to add floppy drives, etc. >OR, are people using IBM's as a terminal, and running some program that >pretends to be an attached paper tape reader/punch unit? That might do >for starters, though its not anywhere near as satisfying. Step zero of course is restoring the line cord and power. Step one then is to put together a minimal system (8330, 8300, 8310, 8655, 837, 849, Core stack, 8320 bus loads.) You can do some tests with just the CPU cards in as well. Step two would be to get RS-232 connectivity to a PC, toggle in the RIM loader and load some the of the diagnostic tapes. In particular the memory exerciser and the instruction set tests. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 6 19:15:33 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:44 2005 Subject: pdp 8/e In-Reply-To: <199910062336.XAA18331@thorin.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Oct 6, 99 06:36:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5574 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991007/25986010/attachment.ksh From garethknight at contactbox.co.uk Wed Oct 6 20:19:56 1999 From: garethknight at contactbox.co.uk (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:44 2005 Subject: Site update and Compaq 486 References: <199910061642.MAA08440@smarty.smart.net> <19991006214302.885.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <012f01bf1063$684c49a0$02d2fea9@gaz> Hi Classic Collectors, this is only slightly on-topic but covers many products over 10 years old. The Amiga Interactive Guide website has been updated. There are new photos of the original Lorraine, Atari 2600 games, unreleased machines, and some other major additions. The address is http://welcome.to/aig Just to legitmise this email with some semi-Classic discussion, how much would the base unit of Compaq 486/33m with 8Mb be worth now? A friend is interested in buying and I was thinking of a price around ?20. Is this reasonable? Remember that this is the base unit ONLY, it doesn't have a keyboard, CD-ROM, or monitor. Regards, Gareth -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide - http://welcome.to/aig From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Wed Oct 6 21:32:19 1999 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:44 2005 Subject: Site update and Compaq 486 Message-ID: <001401bf106c$2e2bd480$7d3ec018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> >Just to legitmise this email with some semi-Classic discussion, how much >would the base unit of Compaq 486/33m with 8Mb be worth now? A friend is >interested in buying and I was thinking of a price around ?20. Is this >reasonable? Remember that this is the base unit ONLY, it doesn't have a >keyboard, CD-ROM, or monitor. I found mine in a dumpster. I think it's collectible as an early example (perhaps the first?) of EISA. The ram is probably on-board the CPU card, so the only component with any commercial value would be the hard drive. Hans From red at bears.org Wed Oct 6 21:44:45 1999 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:44 2005 Subject: Site update and Compaq 486 In-Reply-To: <001401bf106c$2e2bd480$7d3ec018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Oct 1999, Olminkhof wrote: > >Just to legitmise this email with some semi-Classic discussion, how much > >would the base unit of Compaq 486/33m with 8Mb be worth now? > > I found mine in a dumpster. I think it's collectible as an early example > (perhaps the first?) of EISA. The ram is probably on-board the CPU card, so > the only component with any commercial value would be the hard drive. Not too early an example. The very first EISA machines were brand new in June of 1989, and were powered by 25 MHz 80386 CPUs. I used to have a copy of the Byte in question, which also featured MCA clones. I wish I knew where it got to. I don't think the first machines using 33 MHz 80486 CPUs were released until sometime 1991. ok r. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Oct 6 21:56:43 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: Site update and Compaq 486 Message-ID: <0.a62dea1.252d65eb@aol.com> In a message dated 10/6/99 9:45:16 PM US Eastern Standard Time, red@bears.org writes: > The very first EISA machines were brand new in June of 1989, and were > powered by 25 MHz 80386 CPUs. I used to have a copy of the Byte in > question, which also featured MCA clones. I wish I knew where it got to. MCA clones? interesting! remember anything about the article? Ive an NCR 3300 that is similar to a PS/2 model 77. From edick at idcomm.com Wed Oct 6 21:54:41 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: S-100 Bus Message-ID: <002201bf106f$9158e680$0400c0a8@winbook> Hi! When I said the device had to work at high speed, I was referring to the crosspoint switch which is used to distribute and collect the bus signals, and by means of which one can assign an arbitrary destination for any of the source signals, viewing them as channels rather than as individual bits. The reason for this is to facilitate wiggling bus hanshake signal lines at something approaching real-life speeds. If you've got 96 such channels and want to update them all at a 2 MHz rate without skew between the various changes, you've got to multiply that number of bits by the rate, which quickly yields 192 MHz, which is the rate at which the circuit translates the bits. The good (and saving) thing that I'd quickly point out, is that it's seldom necessary to change all the signals. There's a way to shorten the delay between bus updates by skipping the updates of unchanged registers. That will help, hopefully with this bandwidth demand. It's easy to reduce the signals changed in a transaction on the bus by a couple of dozen by paying attention only to the signals relevant to a given transaction. This means that the board should have no difficulty whatever generating the typical data transfer handshake ant a normal speed, and wouldn't strain too much to perform block fills and block transfers, and, more interestingly, reasonably thorough memory verification, since that actually involves only a couple of dozen or so signals. I was/am contemplating a programmable state machine with which to perform bus transactions at real-world rates in lieu of a "full-blown" crosspoint switch because that way I could proceed to program macro-operations locally as opposed to doing everything in the PC and suffering the performance loss. What the crosspoint switch does for me is it allows me to group the inputs and outputs in any combination I like, thereby making really fast bus transactions possible since the delay form update at the PC interface to the S-100 is a function of how long it takes me to load the registers I need to load in order to do what I need. If only two or three registers need to be changed, then loading them will be all that has to be done before generating an update of the S-100. In any case, I'm considering an alternative design which will operate at a much higher rate because of parallelism. In a couple of weeks I'll know whether I can exploit that higher rate with PC-resident software. Keep in mind, that this thing has to work from the parallel port, else it's too big a hassle. I don't want to build a kit to go in the PC along with one to go in the S-100. What's more, I don't want to fiddle with USB, since it's WAY too slow, and SCSI is a bit too complex for me to fiddle with for this application. (I don't like having to buy documents on standards like ASPI). What's more, I want this to be useable from a notebook. That's how I intend to drive it. As far as the graphical interface, I've considered how I'm going to sneak up on this. I'm not a WINDOWS programmer, nor do wish to become one. I thought what I'd do is write the code in 'C' using Borland's stuff, then move to their WINDOWS-compatible software set or maybe SYMANTEC's, which is also in house. Ultimately, I was hopeful I could generate the top level GUI stuff, e.g. the front panel buttons, in Visual Basic. I've got a physical front panel built with switches that look a bit like the buttons VB creates quite easily, and, since each one has a little round LED in it, the VB handler can emulate that as well. I expect that this will be a substantial education for me, but I also expect that the fundamental software tools to make this board a useful tool will be no trouble at all. I don't HAVE to run it under Windows in order to use some display graphics, you see. I think that I can cook up a library of routines (macros) which the user can select from a popup menu or drop-down list, or some such. That way he simply generates a block of data, be it a byte, word, or whatever, with nearly no limits, and tells the system what to do by means of macro commands, like fill memory from-to-with . . . maybe even some I/O operations. What's needed is a bit of outside input. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Dwight Elvey To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 7:14 PM Subject: Re: S-100 Bus >"Richard Erlacher" wrote: >> >> If you're an S-100 user, particularly if you have experience in bringing up a >> system from totally dead to totally alive, I'd certainly like to see what your >> impression of your needs from such a device might be. >> >> Dick > > >Hi Dick > I've only brought one IMSAI up from the dead. I only needed >a dual trace oscilloscope but I realize that isn't always >the best option. Way back when, I worked for Intel and >was responsible for test of the UPP product. This had a 4040 >on it. I built a cable and interface that allowed >one to replace the 4040 with a Series II development system. >It was not a full logic analyzer, it just did normal read/write >to ROM, RAM and I/O. This combined with an oscilloscope made >a good trouble shooting tool. There isn't really a need to >do 100 MHz operations to make a useful tool. One can make >variable delays to adjust read and write timing to look >for timing issues. The code that ran on the Series II >was done in Forth. This way, one could quickly write a particular >test routine for the particular problem one was trouble shooting, >like one would do on a Sun with open boot. This would be quite >hard to do in a GUI without some kind of command line >macro ability ( the problem with GUI's is that, although a >picture is worth a thousand words, they are often not the >thousand words that you currently need ). Trouble shooting >requires flexibility in test conditions that are much more >varied than what would be used to simply go-nogo test. >Dwight > From red at bears.org Wed Oct 6 22:06:10 1999 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: Site update and Compaq 486 In-Reply-To: <0.a62dea1.252d65eb@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Oct 1999 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > > The very first EISA machines were brand new in June of 1989, and were > > powered by 25 MHz 80386 CPUs. I used to have a copy of the Byte in > > question, which also featured MCA clones. I wish I knew where it got to. > > MCA clones? interesting! remember anything about the article? Ive an NCR 3300 > that is similar to a PS/2 model 77. Very little. That's why I wish I knew what happened to the magazine! (: Machines from Tandy and NCR were both reviewed, among others, and the verdict was none of them were particularly effective clones. The MCA support was universally problematic. ok r. From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 6 22:14:24 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: S-100 Bus Message-ID: <199910070314.XAA05445@world.std.com> from Tony Duell at "Oct 7, 1999 01:15:33 am" Message-ID: <199910070331.DAA18829@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > > > Yep. Unfortunately I dont have any peripherals. Except the one RL01, and > > apparently I dont have an interface board for that. > > The RL8 is a hex card, and won't fit in the 8/e box. I have one in my > 8/a. I bet there _was_ one behind one of the 8/a panels that you couldn't > remove. > Actually, it was that I refused to remove the front panel of one (by damaging it). But, someone did trash one of the front panels, and i was able to reach up under the other one and grab the lowest hex height card. So, I actually have about 4 hex cards. One IS the RL01 controller, another is 128K of MOS memory... too bad I didnt have time to get one of the pdp8/a's, I had to stretch my 1 hour lunch break to over 2 hours just to get what I got... -Lawrence LeMay From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Oct 6 23:01:44 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: Next steps (was Re: pdp 8/e) Message-ID: <19991007040144.7568.rocketmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck McManis wrote: > Yup, that would be the DEC "standard" three loop current loop interface. > (Tx loop, Rx loop, reader-run loop). Is there a picture of the "standard" 20mA connector with pinout? I want to test my ASR-33 up against a VT220 and I need at least to make a pin-swabbing cable if I don't need a 12V power supply, too. > >Yep. Unfortunately I dont have any peripherals. Except the one RL01, and > >apparently I dont have an interface board for that. > > I don't believe DEC made a Quad RL controller. I've only seen the M8433 > which is a hex wide RL controller that plugs into the PDP-8/a. That is the only RL controller I am aware of. OTOH, I like it a lot. I got one when I could not get RK05 drives, but I could get RL01 drives for around $100 plus shipping (over ten years ago). At that time, RL02's were still many hundreds. > >If the core memory doesnt work out, is the MOS memory actually affordable? I can't say for quad MOS. I've only got hex MOS... I haven't paid over $50 a board for any of it. > >Anyone willing to tell me some PDP parts suppliers that may have some > >interface boards, I have bought much from Continental Computers including an RL8A, KT8A and 128Kw memory board (MM8A-?) but you have to know by handle number what to ask for. I rattled off a list of boards and they only had two or three of the ones I was interested in. > > like whatever I need to hook up that RL01 (what exactly > >is a RL01 anyways). An RL01 is a 5Mb, single platter, embedded servo-style, removable drive. The RL02 is a 10Mb version of the same technology. They aren't all that fast, but they were plentiful, being available for the -8, -11 and various flavors of VAXen. IMHO, there is much less to maintain than than with RK05s. The OS/8 driver for the RL01 defines three logical units per physical drive, 40%, 40% and 20% of the capacity, but the third unit is slower because it fills the nooks and crannies around the first two units. It's because of a physical device size limitation in OS/8. > Maybe I should be looking to add floppy drives, etc. Floppies are nice if you have a stack of media with stuff on it. I have a few games and such. I'd like to be able to back them up to a modern machine and cut a CD-ROM of the disk images. To that end, I've just extracted a Tandon TM-848 floppy from my DataRam Q22 box and need to see about a power harness (six pin, H-shaped) and a 34<->50 pin cable to hook it up to an old box to do media conversion. > >OR, are people using IBM's as a terminal, and running some program that > >pretends to be an attached paper tape reader/punch unit? That might do > >for starters, though its not anywhere near as satisfying. If you didn't have a teletype, I guess a TTY emulator on a PC would be a way to go, but I don't know of any punch/reader emulating software, per se. I guess you could adapt ProComm or something like it that can upload and download data over the application. > >From there you have several choices, perhaps the simplest is the ASR33 with > paper tape software. As attendees to VCF can attest, it makes a loud but > somehow comforting ratcheting sound to hear FOCAL or some other system > being loaded at 10 CPS. On Highgate there is software for RX01's (OS/8 et al) It's not comforting to load papertape basic and Star Trek at 10cps... that's a *lot* of tape. I was glad to have a highspeed reader on the 12Kw -8/L. > Lots of fun ahead, > --Chuck For sure! -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From wdg3rd at home.com Wed Oct 6 19:42:42 1999 From: wdg3rd at home.com (Ward Griffiths) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: Site update and Compaq 486 References: Message-ID: <37FBEC82.2FCF2AA5@home.com> "r. 'bear' stricklin" wrote: > > On Wed, 6 Oct 1999 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > > > > The very first EISA machines were brand new in June of 1989, and were > > > powered by 25 MHz 80386 CPUs. I used to have a copy of the Byte in > > > question, which also featured MCA clones. I wish I knew where it got to. > > > > MCA clones? interesting! remember anything about the article? Ive an NCR 3300 > > that is similar to a PS/2 model 77. > > Very little. That's why I wish I knew what happened to the magazine! (: > > Machines from Tandy and NCR were both reviewed, among others, and the > verdict was none of them were particularly effective clones. The MCA > support was universally problematic. The Tandy 5000MC was the first real MCA "clone", though it didn't have the disabled bus-master capability that was standard in IBM's products due to an edict from marketing over-riding engineering (at IBM). As I recall, it was announced in 1987. There may have been a few other "cloned" MCA systems before that, but the Tandy system was the first that had actually paid the license fee to IBM to produce one without threat of lawsuit. The machine sank like a stone, as every non-PC compatible Intel-based Tandy product using more than an 8085 CPU did. (Example, Tandy 2000, Tandy 600). Not that the 8085-based Tandy 200 was a raving success or the AT-clone Tandy 3000. The 5000MC was however a record in sink speed. (The NCR MCA-bus machines later [and lasting a goodly while] came out of server development circles, not the desktop side, and were quite successful well into the AT&T days. And MCA was active at IBM in the RS/6000 series until only a couple-three years ago, though with no Intel CPUs involved). -- Ward Griffiths wdg3rd@home.com WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Wed Oct 6 23:58:13 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: Still Looking for DEC CR11/CM11 Card Reader! Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991006215813.00686ffc@ferrari.sfu.ca> Hi Group: A repost, just in case anyone missed it: > > Hi Gang: > > I'm interested in finding a card reader for my pdp-11 machines. There was > one advertised as available earlier this week, unfortunately it has been > claimed. > > The CR11 and CM11 models are what I'm looking for - they're a desktop > variety that would work nicely with my current machines. > > Anyone out there have one they will part with? > > Kevin --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Thu Oct 7 00:14:16 1999 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: Site update and Compaq 486 Message-ID: <002e01bf1082$cdcfbe00$7d3ec018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: >The very first EISA machines were brand new in June of 1989, and were >powered by 25 MHz 80386 CPUs. I used to have a copy of the Byte in >question, which also featured MCA clones. I wish I knew where it got to. > >I don't think the first machines using 33 MHz 80486 CPUs were released >until sometime 1991. I don't think its the Byte article you mention, but the May 1990 Byte goes into a comparison of EISA and Microchannel. Says the first EISA machine was a HP Vectra 486 and talks as if the Compaq Systempro was next. Hans From red at bears.org Thu Oct 7 00:54:44 1999 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: Site update and Compaq 486 In-Reply-To: <002e01bf1082$cdcfbe00$7d3ec018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Oct 1999, Olminkhof wrote: > I don't think its the Byte article you mention, but the May 1990 Byte goes > into a comparison of EISA and Microchannel. Says the first EISA machine was > a HP Vectra 486 and talks as if the Compaq Systempro was next. I might be misremembering the date of the magazine. If there is a review of MCA clones in that issue, then that's the one I was thinking of. ok r. From edick at idcomm.com Thu Oct 7 00:54:20 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: S-100 Bus Message-ID: <001001bf1088$82232040$0400c0a8@winbook> please see embedded comments below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 9:21 PM Subject: Re: S-100 Bus > >I've brought up several IMSAIs, Altairs, NS*, Netronics explorer 8085, >several mongrels and my multi-CPU s100 crate. > I've also brought up a number of S-100's and SBC's, not to mentions systems on the MULTIBUS-I. The only case in which I've used a front panel has been the one MULTIBUS-user-client I had once whose SW types thought it would help. I doubt that it did, but it was a fun job! > >Front pannel systems were rich enough to accomplish the task once the FP >was known working or nearly so. Often the problems were dirty switches, >broken wires, failed oneshots or maybe a bad LED. Other problems were the >older boards that didn't like Bus pins 20 and 70 (protect/unprotect). > >Must haves: > > ability to display memory > ability to write to memory > Start, stop and single step the CPU Those go without saying. After all, this is supposed to be a diagnostic tool. >Most front pannel systems (alatir, Imsai, Ithaca intersystems, PDA-80 have >the basic resources. A scope may be needed if there are timing issues >or one shots that are drifted off. > >The non front pannel systems required a FP that could be plugged in. the >easiest way was a a minimal CPU (Computime SBC880) that can drive the bus >but is otherwise self contained. That and a terminal is as good as a front >panel (better). I agree, except that I belive that your PC-compatible would make an even better FP substitute, with its nearly 1 GHz processor, 1GB of RAM and several 3-doz-GB HDD's. Moreover, since it can not only load programs and monitor their execution, clock-tick-by-clock-tick, and disassemble unfamiliar code in real time, generally waiting for the resident processor to catch up, it has potential not yet exploited. You can use it for logic analysis, signature analysis/failure detection, code verification, profiling, etc. It's just another tool, but if it can be sold for less than IMSAI's FP, then it's not only an improved tool, but less costly, too. Since you can repetitively stimulate the S-100 in a short loop, you can easily address signal quality issues previous too slippery for most folks. You can look over the processor's shoulder or you can take him out of the loop and run things yourself. When you've narrowed the problem you have down to a small set of signals, you can poke around with your 'scope to see that all's as it should be. >The multi-cpu system needed more as the CPUs were not commercial units >IE: they never worked before so they had to be debugged first and that >required a bus logic analyser (capture bus state 1024 cycles deep) that >could trigger on specified conditions. This was needed to look at the >interaction of the many cpus and DMA devices. Once the system could run >code predictably (could still crash but reset to rom monitor was reliable) >The bus analyser was almost by un-needed. I never used a front panel until I was asked to build one for a multi-processor system on a VERY extended Multibus-I. That was fun and profitable, but wholly unnecessary, I felt, since all the processor boards were completely self-sufficient with the exception of mass storage, and since the CP/M image was in ROM, it didn't take long to boot, either. >A simple logic probe was the single common tool besides a front panel or >its analogue. A multi trace scope was handy for Altairs (too damn many >one-shots!) and other system where the problem was logic that was damaged >from lightining (my old NS* system). > I've normally addressed lightning damage with a call to the insurance company, though they usually don't respond promptly. The procedure for socketed boards is to take the parts out and test them in a tester. Most prom programmers can do that. I really don't see how a logic probe can help you until you've narrowed the problem down to a single board. What's more, it's common enough to have several boards which work correctly in a system that doesn't. Sometimes they just don't work and play well with others. CompuPro boards were famous for this. They often wouldn't work with other boards from CompuPro. They weren't alone in this, but their idea of interoperability was that MOST of the boards in a system which they sold would work together. Their excellent marketing and advertising made them the main force behind adoption of a standard too weak to work, and too vague to provide guidance. They, more than any other maker of S-100 stuff ignored whatever parts of the standard that it suited them to ignore, and they weren't alone. The problems of this sort are exactly the sort I'd seek to address with a bus probe. What's more, there are few tools which will automatically allow you to find inadvertent connections between signals, say, because of a mis-jumpered board, or such, or to find that what one board maker uses for signal is GND to another. > >Allison > > > > From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 7 02:06:48 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: Next steps (was Re: pdp 8/e) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991006170354.03f8f2c0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> (message from Chuck McManis on Wed, 06 Oct 1999 17:21:17 -0700) References: <4.1.19991006134239.00bf35d0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> <4.1.19991006170354.03f8f2c0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <19991007070648.3891.qmail@brouhaha.com> >>> Make up a positive bus interface and a DMA (data break) card. >>Which is nice. But what does this get me in the real world? > > I believe they are required to support the DECTape interface but Eric Smith > would know for sure. Yes, the positive bus interface is useful for hooking up any number of PDP-8 postive bus devices (which are daisy-chained). You can also add a positive-to-negative bus converter (DW08?) at the end of the positive bus chain if you need to hook up older negative bus devices. For each PDP-8 positive bus device that needs data break, such as a TC08-P DECtape control, you need one data break interface card in the 8/e; the data break cables are radial rather than daisy-chain. If you don't have any older (non-Omnibus) PDP-8 peripherals, those cards won't do you much good, so the only sensible thing to do would be to give, trade, or sell them to Chuck or to me. :-) From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Oct 7 07:55:52 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: S-100 Bus In-Reply-To: <001001bf1088$82232040$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: > on the MULTIBUS-I. The only case in which I've used a front panel has been > the one MULTIBUS-user-client I had once whose SW types thought it would > help. I doubt that it did, but it was a fun job! All the multibus bring ups were done using CPUs like intel 80/20 or national BLC204, even if the bus was a mess you could run with these as ram/rom/io on board were alive. > I agree, except that I belive that your PC-compatible would make an even > better FP substitute, with its nearly 1 GHz processor, 1GB of RAM and Not to say it can't. The SBC880 was a z80/serial/parallel/rom/ram on one card and more of less had those function isolated from the bus. This allowed severly crunched bus to be driven while having the luxuray of a real cpu and terminal interface. I used my own debug monitor in Eprom. The key is I still have it, and I used it from the early 80s on. For board level debug the explorer 8085 was good as s100 was the 'add on bus" so if the card was not running you could drive/interrogate it. > several 3-doz-GB HDD's. Moreover, since it can not only load programs and > monitor their execution, clock-tick-by-clock-tick, and disassemble > unfamiliar code in real time, generally waiting for the resident processor > to catch up, it has potential not yet exploited. You can use it for logic > analysis, signature analysis/failure detection, code verification, > profiling, etc. It's just another tool, but if it can be sold for less than > IMSAI's FP, then it's not only an improved tool, but less costly, too. > Since you can repetitively stimulate the S-100 in a short loop, you can > easily address signal quality issues previous too slippery for most folks. > You can look over the processor's shoulder or you can take him out of the > loop and run things yourself. When you've narrowed the problem you have > down to a small set of signals, you can poke around with your 'scope to see > that all's as it should be. A s100 card with z80, io and enough ram and rom to run is a trivial board and was cheap even in the early 80s. Using todays parts 64k of eprom, 64k (or more) of banked ram and other things would be not only simpler but cheaper too! The PC approach depends on the processor having lots of speed. What if all you have for this kind of task is a 486dx/33 or maybe an old P133? Not evey one is invested in PCs to the ears. FYI: my hottest PC is for on line use and not for adding cards like that and it's only a P166 with about 2.1gb. The only systems I have with an abundance of loose storage are VAXen. > I never used a front panel until I was asked to build one for a > multi-processor system on a VERY extended Multibus-I. That was fun and > profitable, but wholly unnecessary, I felt, since all the processor boards > were completely self-sufficient with the exception of mass storage, and > since the CP/M image was in ROM, it didn't take long to boot, either. I started with PDP-8s, 10s then a CM2100 and firs micro was ALTAIR. FP were ok for some thing where seeing state was nice. I used it more to mod software that had IO that didn't match mine. It was the easiest way to see what addresses it was looping at. > I've normally addressed lightning damage with a call to the insurance > company, though they usually don't respond promptly. The procedure for > socketed boards is to take the parts out and test them in a tester. Most > prom programmers can do that. There were two proms in the entire system, 488 2102s, and lots of '367s, 241s, and '244s. Not to mention the fried terminal and printer. In 1979 a logic tester for would have cost several times the system. Now, I'd toss the MB and start fresh. > I really don't see how a logic probe can help you until you've narrowed the > problem down to a single board. What's more, it's common enough to have > several boards which work correctly in a system that doesn't. Sometimes > they just don't work and play well with others. CompuPro boards were famous > for this. They often wouldn't work with other boards from CompuPro. They > weren't alone in this, but their idea of interoperability was that MOST of > the boards in a system which they sold would work together. Their excellent > marketing and advertising made them the main force behind adoption of a > standard too weak to work, and too vague to provide guidance. They, more > than any other maker of S-100 stuff ignored whatever parts of the standard > that it suited them to ignore, and they weren't alone. The problems of this > sort are exactly the sort I'd seek to address with a bus probe. What's > more, there are few tools which will automatically allow you to find > inadvertent connections between signals, say, because of a mis-jumpered > board, or such, or to find that what one board maker uses for signal is GND > to another. S100 was nice in one respect you could strip the bus and plug in pboard until it broke. Allison From kh240463 at stmail.staffs.ac.uk Thu Oct 7 08:02:59 1999 From: kh240463 at stmail.staffs.ac.uk (KNIGHT G.A) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: Site update and Compaq 486 In-Reply-To: References: <001401bf106c$2e2bd480$7d3ec018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Message-ID: > Not too early an example. You mean the year isn't 2001 :) -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide- http://welcome.to/aig "Shine on your star" From dogas at leading.net Thu Oct 7 09:02:26 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: A call for OSI docs/New toy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Like... scoreage! I picked up my OSI Challenger 3 this morning and as usual, sans docs. Its got several boards in it: (3x) OSI 520 memory boards, OSI 527 (?), OSI 510 (multiprocessor board: a 6800, a z-80, and a 6502, wow), (2x) OSI 470 (maybe parallel/disk interfaces??? one of them has what looks like a centronics cable attached), and a "motherboard", ps, and case. I'll hit the Kilobauds tonight but was wondering if someone (1) could quiclky clarify what the boards actually are, (2) note if anything/cards are obviously missing, and (3) request copies of any docs that may be available. ;) - Mike: dogas@leading.net From rmeenaks at olf.com Thu Oct 7 09:15:01 1999 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: Running a 220v computer in a 110v environment Message-ID: <37FCAAE4.F6264253@olf.com> Hi, Probably some of you have already done this. I have an equipment, a parsytec xplorer, that runs a 220v. I got it from across the pond. Since I am in the states and the power output is 110v, is there any way for me to run this without getting a transformer to pump it up to 220v??? Unfortunately, the parsytec doesnt convert automatically like PC and laptops of today. In my apartment, there is a funny looking plug next to out AC. I remember somewhat vaugely that it is actually 220v. Is this true??? How did you guys solve this problem???? I want to get a good solid response before I blow up the machine :-) Ram -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | Senior Software Engineer | OpenLink Financial Inc | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu Oct 7 09:19:11 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: FW: Free to good home: Byte Magazine 1993 - 1998 In-Reply-To: <37fc8f4f.500720905@news.jps.net> References: <37fc8f4f.500720905@news.jps.net> Message-ID: If anyone would like a complete collection of BYTE mags from 1993 until the last issue in 1998, drop an E-mail to the fellow below. He's just looking for a home for them. -=-=- -=-=- On Thu, 07 Oct 1999 12:19:07 GMT, in seattle.forsale.computers you wrote: >>Includes the last historic issue published in July 1998. >>This i s a collector's set. My wife prefers basement space to >>history. I would rather see someone enjoy the collection >>than turn it in for land fill. >> >>Any takers? >> >>Please respond by e-mail. Remove % from the address >>before pressing SEND. Actual address is tcox@jps.net -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From bill at chipware.com Thu Oct 7 09:49:46 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: A call for OSI docs/New toy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000a01bf10d3$3284c890$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > Like... scoreage! I picked up my OSI Challenger 3 this morning > and as usual, > sans docs. Its got several boards in it: (3x) OSI 520 memory boards, OSI > 527 (?), OSI 510 (multiprocessor board: a 6800, a z-80, and a 6502, wow), OSI 527 -- 24K of 2114 static RAM > (2x) OSI 470 (maybe parallel/disk interfaces??? one of them has what looks > like a centronics cable attached), and a "motherboard", ps, and case. OSI 470 -- Believe it or not, can be configured to do either parallel or floppy and a few other "network-like" things as well. Note that in any case, most of the board is unpopulated. If it is being used as a floppy controller, there should be a small "daughter" card hanging off of it and the cable to the floppy drive will come from that card (can't remember the OSI number for that card). The floppy may have been disconnected by removing this card, in which case there will just be a row of pins sticking out. I don't have those schematics here at work right now. I'll try to remember to bring them in tomorrow to give you more details. > (2) note if anything/cards are obviously missing, Assuming the serial port on the 510 is populated and enabled, then you should have a complete system with the addition of a terminal, floppy drive and system (OS-65D). If not, then you would need to add an early rev (pre-B) 540 board to give you video, keyboard and cassette. You would also need an OSI 542 keyboard. The ROMs on the 510 will be programmed to expect a certain configuration, so if the serial port is not there, filling it in will not help. Final note: What you got was a Challenger III, not to be confused with a C3 which can be a very different animal. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Oct 7 10:09:11 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: Site update and Compaq 486 In-Reply-To: <012f01bf1063$684c49a0$02d2fea9@gaz> References: <199910061642.MAA08440@smarty.smart.net> <19991006214302.885.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991007100911.512ffb86@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 02:19 AM 10/7/99 +0100, you wrote: >Hi Classic Collectors, this is only slightly on-topic but covers many >products over 10 years old. The Amiga Interactive Guide website has been >updated. There are new photos of the original Lorraine, Atari 2600 games, >unreleased machines, and some other major additions. The address is >http://welcome.to/aig > >Just to legitmise this email with some semi-Classic discussion, how much >would the base unit of Compaq 486/33m with 8Mb be worth now? A friend is >interested in buying and I was thinking of a price around ?20. Is this >reasonable? Remember that this is the base unit ONLY, it doesn't have a >keyboard, CD-ROM, or monitor. > >Regards, >Gareth Gareth, I have a Compaq 486/33 with 16Mb that was given to me. Here in the US they're not worth anything. People are throwing them away. Joe From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Oct 7 10:15:54 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: Running a 220v computer in a 110v environment In-Reply-To: <37FCAAE4.F6264253@olf.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991007104850.00a61100@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 10:15 AM 10/7/99 -0400, Ram Meenakshisundaram said something like: >Hi, > >Probably some of you have already done this. I have an equipment, a >parsytec xplorer, that runs a 220v. I got it from across the pond. >Since I am in the states and the power output is 110v, is there any way >for me to run this without getting a transformer to pump it up to >220v??? Unfortunately, the parsytec doesnt convert automatically like If there are no input voltage selector switches hidden inside on the PSU and you are reluctant to use a transformer then there's no way to run it directly from 115V mains. >PC and laptops of today. In my apartment, there is a funny looking plug >next to out AC. I remember somewhat vaugely that it is actually 220v. This could be for an air conditioner as the larger A/C's are usually 220V units. Just check with your landlord. If for sure a 220 outlet for A/C then first determine if the input to the PSU is fused (a fuse is A Good Thing). Next, have an electrician friend get a correct connector and _correctly_ wire it up and you're good to go. If there is no fuse protection in the PSU perhaps your electrician friend could devise an NEC-correct box to fit between the outlet and the PSU. Safety is A Good Thing especially to prevent damage to the unit and minor things like fires, your death, etc. Another thing to consider is whether the PSU will run well on the North American 60 Hz line frequency instead of the 50 Hz used in most of the rest of the planet. If the AC input rating label says something like '220 V, 50/60 Hz' or suchlike, then you're okay. You see, if the PSU is transformer-based (not a switching PSU like you see on all PeeCees) then there _may_ be a dependancy upon 50 Hz only as the tranny was possibly designed just for 50 Hz. If the company's designers were considerate of the unit running in other parts of the earth, then they could have specified a 50/60 Hz tranny. You should check this. >Is this true??? How did you guys solve this problem???? I want to get >a good solid response before I blow up the machine :-) Blowing up is A Bad Thing :) Sounds like you should simply invest in a transformer sized big enough to handle most 220 gear you have or will eventually get. 300 to 500 Watts would be a good universal size but I suspect the Parsytec would only need 50 to 100 W or so of power (I've never seen one so have no idea how big the thing is.) Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk Thu Oct 7 10:10:42 1999 From: peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: Site update and Compaq 486 References: Message-ID: <016001bf10df$4898fb40$1347883e@proteus> Hi, > The very first EISA machines were brand new in June of 1989, >and were powered by 25 MHz 80386 CPUs.... Yes, there were a fair few '386 based EISA motherboards on sale here in the UK around 1990. '486 based ones didn't appear for a while after that - a year or so ISTR. That said, AFAIK the first EISA based _SYSTEM_ to hit the market was HP's "Vectra 486". It's reviewed in the November 1989 issue of "Byte" (page 93, the magazine is no more than 6" away from me as I type). >....I used to have a copy of the Byte in question, which also >featured MCA clones. I wish I knew where it got to. Hmm, I don't think it's quite the same issue you're referring to (no MCA clones), but as I said above I have the November 1989 here. It's a handy one to have around as it has a reasonable technical article in it about the EISA bus....I actually use it as a reference for the pinouts of the ISA bus of all things. I've got most of the issues of "Byte" from 1988 through to 1994(ish) here, I could try and dig up that article on MCA clones if you want? TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk Thu Oct 7 10:27:13 1999 From: peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: Help wanted in dumping EPROMs References: <001e01bf1045$ce26cb60$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <016101bf10df$49d65d40$1347883e@proteus> Hi, > It can happen to anyone, I guess. Yep....when I built my ZX-81 I installed a socket for a 6116 on the PCB and built up an external 1K "RAM Pack" on veroboard using the supplied 2114s until I could afford to get a 6116. The circuit diagram didn't clearly explain which was the "top" and which was the "bottom" of the expansion connector....I ended up having to plug my RAM board in upside down (luckily the ZX-81 manual was just the right thickness to raise the machine far enough off the table for this kludge to work). :-) TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk Thu Oct 7 10:54:49 1999 From: peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: Dangers of shifting classic computers (was: AT&T PC 6300 Plus Unix box) References: <19991006092410.3FDAE7D23@iaehv.iae.nl> Message-ID: <016201bf10df$4ab9b860$1347883e@proteus> Hi, >....This machine will alwas have a special place in my collection >though, since it is so heavy I sprained a muscle in my back while >lifting it so bad that I needed several weeks of therapy to cure. >One of the hazards of the old computer collector... Quite, I've managed to injure myself a number of times shifting medium/large sized machines over the years. I trapped a nerve in my back both times I shifted my old PDP-11/23+ (in an H960 cab with a pair of RL-01s). And please, believe me, shifting a PDP-11/34 by yourself is NOT a good idea....my back muscles still wince at the thought. Also managed to strain a couple of back muscles when I moved my SGI 4D/70GT into the house. There were two of us moving that beastie and we'd taken all the boards out of it first (they're about the weight of my 11/53 on their own). Not to mention that I've been in agony for a week now with a trapped nerve in my shoulder. But then again there really was no way to disassemble that "Space Invaders II" machine which I was moving out of the house.... Anyone else hurt themselves, lost limbs etc??? ;-) TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From danburrows at mindspring.com Thu Oct 7 11:16:28 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: Running a 220v computer in a 110v environment Message-ID: <002501bf10df$66316d90$d252e780@tower166.office> The only safe way is to use a transformer that is correctly wired. US mains is 120 - neutral - 120. which gives 240 between the 2 hots. European mains are 240 - neutral. Both expect the neutral to be at / near ground potential. If you wire it to US 240 directly what was neutral in Europe will be at 120v. I have several isolation / step up transformers that I routinely use to accomplish this. You need to be careful how they are wired in order to have both primary and secondary tied correctly to neutral and the grounds MUST be kept separate from the neutral to meet US electrical code. Dan -----Original Message----- From: Ram Meenakshisundaram To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, October 07, 1999 10:19 AM Subject: Running a 220v computer in a 110v environment >Hi, > >Probably some of you have already done this. I have an equipment, a >parsytec xplorer, that runs a 220v. I got it from across the pond. >Since I am in the states and the power output is 110v, is there any way >for me to run this without getting a transformer to pump it up to >220v??? Unfortunately, the parsytec doesnt convert automatically like >PC and laptops of today. In my apartment, there is a funny looking plug >next to out AC. I remember somewhat vaugely that it is actually 220v. >Is this true??? How did you guys solve this problem???? I want to get >a good solid response before I blow up the machine :-) > >Ram > > >-- > > ,,,, > /'^'\ > ( o o ) > -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- >| Ram Meenakshisundaram >| Senior Software Engineer >| OpenLink Financial Inc >| .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 >| ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com > ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- > \_) ) / > (_/ > > From wanderer at bos.nl Thu Oct 7 13:22:54 1999 From: wanderer at bos.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: Running a 220v computer in a 110v environment References: <37FCAAE4.F6264253@olf.com> Message-ID: <37FCE4FE.1CC@bos.nl> Ram, Here in Europe, single phase power is 50Hz, 220V, so you'll need a step up transformer. The difference in frequency is not really a problem. These powersupplies are usually not of the 'switching' type, but are of the 'fixed' type. That funny looking plug might be a 3 phase power outlet BTW. I don't know the power requirements you need, but a 1KW transformer weights about 10Kg (23 Lbs?) Ed Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > > Hi, > > Probably some of you have already done this. I have an equipment, a > parsytec xplorer, that runs a 220v. I got it from across the pond. > Since I am in the states and the power output is 110v, is there any way > for me to run this without getting a transformer to pump it up to > 220v??? Unfortunately, the parsytec doesnt convert automatically like > PC and laptops of today. In my apartment, there is a funny looking plug > next to out AC. I remember somewhat vaugely that it is actually 220v. > Is this true??? How did you guys solve this problem???? I want to get > a good solid response before I blow up the machine :-) > > Ram > > -- > > ,,,, > /'^'\ > ( o o ) > -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- > | Ram Meenakshisundaram > | Senior Software Engineer > | OpenLink Financial Inc > | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 > | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com > ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- > \_) ) / > (_/ -- The Wanderer | Geloof nooit een politicus! wanderer@bos.nl | Europarlementariers: http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer | zakkenvullers en dumpplaats voor Unix Lives! windows95 is rommel! | mislukte politici. '96 GSXR 1100R | See http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer/gates.html for a funny pic. of Gates! From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Oct 7 11:27:52 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: Running a 220v computer in a 110v environment In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991007104850.00a61100@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: > If there are no input voltage selector switches hidden inside on the PSU > and you are reluctant to use a transformer then there's no way to run it > directly from 115V mains. Likely incorrect. There may be a jumper that needs to be moved or if there is an input transformer several jumpers. It's unknown if this is even a switchmode PS, may be old type linear with a BIG transformer. > This could be for an air conditioner as the larger A/C's are usually 220V > units. Just check with your landlord. If for sure a 220 outlet for A/C then Measure using multimeter would be the obvious means. > between the outlet and the PSU. Safety is A Good Thing especially to > prevent damage to the unit and minor things like fires, your death, etc. Always safety. > Another thing to consider is whether the PSU will run well on the North > American 60 Hz line frequency instead of the 50 Hz used in most of the rest > of the planet. If the AC input rating label says something like '220 V, Usually, (I know of no exceptions) if it runs on 50hz it runs on 60. The reverse is not always true, but often it is. Reason for 50/60hz is often motor speeds (old ac motor disk drives and the like) and equipment with cheap transformers (not enough iron to work ok at 50hz). Military equipment Transformers are often designed for 400hz and these DO NOT like 50/60hz unless built to accept all three. Something designed for 220/50hz if plugged into a 110/60hz would be safe but, also a no operate. Generally getting Euro gear to work here is easier than getting US gear to work there! The exception is TV/VCR stuff. Allison From daniel at internet.look.ca Thu Oct 7 11:32:28 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: Dangers of shifting classic computers (was: AT&T PC 6300 Plus Unix box) Message-ID: <003801bf10e1$8c46cf00$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> -----Original Message----- From: Peter Pachla To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, October 07, 1999 12:17 PM Subject: Dangers of shifting classic computers (was: AT&T PC 6300 Plus Unix box) >Hi, > > >....This machine will alwas have a special place in my collection > >though, since it is so heavy I sprained a muscle in my back while > >lifting it so bad that I needed several weeks of therapy to cure. > >One of the hazards of the old computer collector... > >Quite, I've managed to injure myself a number of times shifting medium/large >sized machines over the years. > >I trapped a nerve in my back both times I shifted my old PDP-11/23+ (in an >H960 cab with a pair of RL-01s). And please, believe me, shifting a PDP-11/34 >by yourself is NOT a good idea....my back muscles still wince at the thought. > >Also managed to strain a couple of back muscles when I moved my SGI 4D/70GT >into the house. There were two of us moving that beastie and we'd taken all >the boards out of it first (they're about the weight of my 11/53 on their >own). > > >Not to mention that I've been in agony for a week now with a trapped nerve in >my shoulder. But then again there really was no way to disassemble that "Space >Invaders II" machine which I was moving out of the house.... > >Anyone else hurt themselves, lost limbs etc??? ;-) > > Quite a few times. When I was younger I would move RK05 drives all over the place by myself - killed my lower back. To this day I have bad back problems. My worst injuries are: RK05 / PDP 11/34 (no help) - bad lower back. Honeywell 316 - cyanide poisoning, was in the hospital, wished I was dead for a good 4-5 days as my insides were eaten out. Honeywell 316 - The scrap dealer (Wayne Borer) that got the unit for me brought it to the house when I was rather young. They got the entire case (included H316, fixed head DH, interface bays, air conditioner) to end of the truck when it started to fall. It fell on his NUTS! 3 guys (including my dad) held the case away from killing him. He rolled on the ground for at least 30 minutes in extreme pain. He never did have any kids after that. Honeywell 316 - Rack mounted on a flimbsy case, fell over one night and badly damaged the headboard on my bed. (kept it in my bedroom) H-11 with 2 RK05s and a bunch of other heavy mainframes - Broke the shocks in my dads caddy on the way home from athe Rochester Hamfest, scratches and back pain from making it fit. There have been more painful memories but I can't remember them all. The cyanide poisoning was the worst. > TTFN - Pete. > >-- >Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. >Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) > >peter.pachla@virgin.net | >peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | >peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk >-- > > From pbboy at mindspring.com Thu Oct 7 11:44:19 1999 From: pbboy at mindspring.com (pbboy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: Dangers of shifting classic computers (was: AT&T PC 6300 Plus Unix box) References: <003801bf10e1$8c46cf00$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> Message-ID: <37FCCDE3.42F95D53@mindspring.com> > > > Quite a few times. When I was younger I would move RK05 drives all over the > place by myself - killed my lower back. To this day I have bad back > problems. > > My worst injuries are: > > RK05 / PDP 11/34 (no help) - bad lower back. > > Honeywell 316 - cyanide poisoning, was in the hospital, wished I was dead > for a good 4-5 days as my insides were eaten out. How do you get cyanide poisoning from a computer? What parts used cyanide? pbboy From daniel at internet.look.ca Thu Oct 7 11:51:21 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: Dangers of shifting classic computers (was: AT&T PC 6300 Plus Unix box) Message-ID: <004501bf10e4$3b4aa9c0$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> -----Original Message----- From: pbboy To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, October 07, 1999 12:44 PM Subject: Re: Dangers of shifting classic computers (was: AT&T PC 6300 Plus Unix box) >> >> >> Quite a few times. When I was younger I would move RK05 drives all over the >> place by myself - killed my lower back. To this day I have bad back >> problems. >> >> My worst injuries are: >> >> RK05 / PDP 11/34 (no help) - bad lower back. >> >> Honeywell 316 - cyanide poisoning, was in the hospital, wished I was dead >> for a good 4-5 days as my insides were eaten out. > >How do you get cyanide poisoning from a computer? What parts used cyanide? > Anyone who has worked on a Honeywell 316 power supply knows there is a long board (about 12" X 2 1/2" that plugs into a single socket on the bottom of the power supply. When I was 13/14 years old (don't remember the year) I pulled out the board and the connector broke in half. The connector wires with ends popped out so I had to reconstruct the connector. I asked my dad for some serious adhesive they use at his work place (steel). He brought it home and I slowly but carefully glued back in each wire into the connector and finally glued the connector back together (about 15 minutes close work). I got quite dizzy after a while and stopped working on it. What I didn't know was this particular chemical had sodium cyanide in it. That night I got dizzy, headaches, threw up.. The next morning huge sores were in my mouth, throat, tubes, etc... By about noon the next day I was in the hospital. I had close direct exposure to the chemical without any ventilation. The doctior did say a couple more minutes of use and I would have dies as it would have scarred my lungs. The hospital could do nothing and I suffered in amazing pain for a week. Worst pain was at night,... if I swallowed in my sleep I would wake up as the scarred tissue would open in my throat causing unbelievable pain. I have followed warnings on the bottles ever since. The doctor did tell me that they had one case like that years ago when shoemakers use to use that kind of chemical to fix shoes. Not fun. BTW The supply did work and I still have it. >pbboy > > From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Thu Oct 7 11:56:41 1999 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: Running a 220v computer in a 110v environment Message-ID: <80256803.005CC09B.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> > The only safe way is to use a transformer that is correctly wired. US mains is > 120 - neutral - 120. which gives 240 between the 2 hots. European mains are > 240 - neutral. Both expect the neutral to be at / near ground potential. If > you wire it to US 240 directly what was neutral in Europe will be at 120v. I > have several isolation / step up transformers that I routinely use to accomplish > this. You need to be careful how they are wired in order to have both primary > and secondary tied correctly to neutral and the grounds MUST be kept separate > from the neutral to meet US electrical code. In Europe, many outlets (German ones spring to mind) are mechanically symmetrical with respect to swapping hot ("Live") and Neutral pins, and AFAIK all equipment has to be able to operate whichever side of the input is earthy (=close to ground potential). I would have no qualms at all about running European equipment of 120 - 0 - 120, although for travel I have made my own autotransformer from a 100VA split-primary mains transformer. Some old (before about 1960) equipment bonds neutral to equipment chassis. This is of course dangerous to run except with the correct side earthy. I have heard rumours of German equipment with a neon between chassis and earth that lights up if you get this wrong! When wiring a step-up transformer: Single winding (autotransformer) should have neutral one end, 120V in the middle and you get 240V out of the other end. Ground (earth) goes straight through without connecting to the windings. Dual winding (isolating transformer) Input across Neutral and 120V - output gives you 240V. Bond one side of the output to Ground, NOT neutral, and this becomes the new neutral [*]. This ensures that a fault to the chassis is guaranteed to trip earth leakage protection downstream of the isolation transformer (which I doubt you have) but not upstream of it. This is much safer if (for example) hot and neutral are reversed on the input. (Note: if you wire one side of the output to neutral, you have something no worse than the autotransformer.) I don't know whether this latter meets the US electrical code, but it is correct :-) As regards strange sockets, I don't imagine 3-phase would be at all likely in a US domestic installation, but 220V happens occasionally. The usual plug is just like the standard US 3-pin plug, but with the two flat pins at 90 degrees to their familiar position. This can roughly be represented in ascii-art thus: o o 120V _ _ 220V | | DEC used it on a lot of their European equipment... Philip [*] For full isolation, don't link ground on the two sides of the transformer. Link chassis etc. on the output to the virtual ground terminal that's bonded to the supply rail you've chosen as neutral. This means that you have to touch both a hot wire _and_ the chassis befor it will zap you. For some testing, don't bond at all - you can't detect a fault to chassis, but you need a fault _and_ to touch the wrong wire before you get a shock... Some more ascii-art, for the record. Autotransformer: ________ 240 C C 120 ____C C C N ______C_______ N Isolating Transformer wired as Autotransformer: _____ 240 ||C ||C 120 _____||C C||C C||C N ______C||C____ N |____| Isolating transformer: _____ 240 ||C ||C 120 _____||C C||C C||C N ______C||C____ N - Bond this to earth and/or chassis as necessary ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. Power Technology Centre, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, Nottingham, NG11 0EE, UK Tel: +44 (0)115 936 2000 http://www.powertech.co.uk ********************************************************************** From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Thu Oct 7 12:03:36 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: Dangers of shifting classic computers In-Reply-To: <016201bf10df$4ab9b860$1347883e@proteus> References: <19991006092410.3FDAE7D23@iaehv.iae.nl> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991007100336.00849100@mail.sfu.ca> My only horror story so far was when Tim Shoppa and I were trying to move a TU80 tape drive into my basement. It slipped off of the dolly and fell about 18 inches, bending the frame on the rack. This was easily fixed later that night however, by pressure applied from a couple of pipe clamps and a long piece of sturdy 2"x"8", with a sledge hammer to assist. The TU80 still worked fine, needless to say. Kevin At 04:54 PM 07/10/99 +0100, you wrote: >Hi, > > >....This machine will alwas have a special place in my collection > >though, since it is so heavy I sprained a muscle in my back while > >lifting it so bad that I needed several weeks of therapy to cure. > >One of the hazards of the old computer collector... > >Quite, I've managed to injure myself a number of times shifting medium/large >sized machines over the years. > >I trapped a nerve in my back both times I shifted my old PDP-11/23+ (in an >H960 cab with a pair of RL-01s). And please, believe me, shifting a PDP-11/34 >by yourself is NOT a good idea....my back muscles still wince at the thought. > >Also managed to strain a couple of back muscles when I moved my SGI 4D/70GT >into the house. There were two of us moving that beastie and we'd taken all >the boards out of it first (they're about the weight of my 11/53 on their >own). > > >Not to mention that I've been in agony for a week now with a trapped nerve in >my shoulder. But then again there really was no way to disassemble that "Space >Invaders II" machine which I was moving out of the house.... > >Anyone else hurt themselves, lost limbs etc??? ;-) > > > TTFN - Pete. > >-- >Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. >Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) > >peter.pachla@virgin.net | >peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | >peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk >-- > > > > > ========================================================== Sgt. Kevin McQuiggin, Vancouver Police Department E-Comm Project (604) 215-5095; Cell: (604) 868-0544 Email: mcquiggi@sfu.ca From ware at corestack.com Thu Oct 7 12:30:53 1999 From: ware at corestack.com (Scott Ware) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: Running a 220v computer in a 110v environment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Oct 1999 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > Usually, (I know of no exceptions) if it runs on 50hz it runs on 60. Weren't there a few S-100 boxes that used ferroresonant transformers in the PSU? Plugging a device with a ferroresonant transformer (a transformer+inductor combination that is quite well regulated but very dependent on input frequency) into an incorrect frequency power source is likely to yield unpleasant results. Although ferroresonant transformers are relatively uncommon (except in UPSes and line conditioning systems), the possiblity of encountering a ferroresonant transformer in the PSU is a good reason to be careful when powering up an unknown box on the "wrong" frequency for the first time. From steverob at hotoffice.com Thu Oct 7 12:38:25 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: Dangers of shifting classic computers Message-ID: <01BF10C9.3B97FAB0.steverob@hotoffice.com> > > Not to mention that I've been in agony for a week now with a trapped nerve in > my shoulder. But then again there really was no way to disassemble that "Space > Invaders II" machine which I was moving out of the house.... > > Anyone else hurt themselves, lost limbs etc??? ;-) About 10 weeks ago, I was working on the drives on my HP9000 and severly sprained my lower back. I have been weight training for many years and was lifting correctly. A little turn in the wrong direction and OUCH!!! When asked what happened, I told everyone at work that I hurt myself installing a hard drive in my computer. Most of the guys laughed and called me a wuss. :-) BTW: I'd guess those drives weigh about 125# each. Steve Robertson - From siconic at jasmine.psyber.com Thu Oct 7 12:38:34 1999 From: siconic at jasmine.psyber.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: Apple //gs for sale Message-ID: Here is a non-profit organization trying to unload what looks to be a very nice and relatively complete Apple //gs system (with boxes!). I'd say a fair price for all this (and taking into account that this is a non-profit in need of cash) is $300 + shipping. Just a suggestion. Please reply to the sender. Reply-to: mwsmn@aol.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:18:08 EDT From: Mwsmn@aol.com To: vcf@vintage.org Subject: Question Hello, I have a 1988-1987 Apple 2 Gs With The extended RAM installed. With the historical value, how much would the system resell at? -APPLE CPU -14" MONITOR -KYBRD/MSE -250 SOFTWARE TITLES -ORIGINAL BOXES FOR SOFTWARE AND COMPUTER COMPONENTS -IMAGEWRITER 2 COLOR REFURB PRINTER -ALL ORIGINAL DOCUMENTATION We are a nonprofit organization. We are in need of a new system. We look forward to your response. (If you can, please tell us a place to sell it. USA only please) Thanks For Your Time. Hope You Can Help. Also, It's great to find an old-computer show. These wonderful machines brought us to where we are today. Glad you are showing yesterdays technologies! Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@verio.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Puttin' the smack down on the man! From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Oct 7 12:53:37 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: SGI Hardware Developer Handbooks available Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991007125337.00dbf3b0@vpwisfirewall> I've got two of these available at no charge to anyone who wants them. They describe the pin-outs, etc. of the internal and external connectors of the SGI line from the 4D through the rest of the line up to about 1995. They're about an inch thick, spiral-bound. - John From rmeenaks at olf.com Thu Oct 7 13:12:34 1999 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: Running a 220v computer in a 110v environment References: <4.1.19991007104850.00a61100@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <37FCE292.5EE6722@olf.com> Christian Fandt wrote: > If there are no input voltage selector switches hidden inside on the PSU > and you are reluctant to use a transformer then there's no way to run it > directly from 115V mains. I havent opened it up or even given a good look at it. It is pretty funny looking though. It has 16 T805-30Mhz transputers with 4Megs per node in it. The thing gets pretty hot, so the sides of the chasis has two big heat sinks. Take a look at this picture: > This could be for an air conditioner as the larger A/C's are usually 220V > units. Just check with your landlord. If for sure a 220 outlet for A/C then > first determine if the input to the PSU is fused (a fuse is A Good Thing). > Next, have an electrician friend get a correct connector and _correctly_ > wire it up and you're good to go. If there is no fuse protection in the PSU > perhaps your electrician friend could devise an NEC-correct box to fit > between the outlet and the PSU. Safety is A Good Thing especially to > prevent damage to the unit and minor things like fires, your death, etc. > > Another thing to consider is whether the PSU will run well on the North > American 60 Hz line frequency instead of the 50 Hz used in most of the rest > of the planet. If the AC input rating label says something like '220 V, > 50/60 Hz' or suchlike, then you're okay. You see, if the PSU is > transformer-based (not a switching PSU like you see on all PeeCees) then > there _may_ be a dependancy upon 50 Hz only as the tranny was possibly > designed just for 50 Hz. If the company's designers were considerate of the > unit running in other parts of the earth, then they could have specified a > 50/60 Hz tranny. You should check this. > Hmmm, that is what I thought. I still feel a bit uncomfortable trying to hook it up to the A/C socket. I really dont want to damage it. It is very very difficult to get this type of equipment. I basically didnt want to have a huge transformer sitting on the floor. Maybe, I might as well go and invest on a good transformer. Ram -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | Senior Software Engineer | OpenLink Financial Inc | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ From edick at idcomm.com Thu Oct 7 13:12:23 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: S-100 Bus Message-ID: <000601bf10ef$9da92780$0400c0a8@winbook> Your comments are interesting and probably correct, but I think you've missed the point. What I wanted to address is the problem of deciding which features to put into a tool and which ones to leave out. The issue of host speed is interesting, except that it really doesn't matter whether it can emulate the S-100 system's processor at 15 times its normal rate or 2500 times its normal rate. The interface is bandwidth limited by design to 2 MHz updates. I've contemplated a FIFO of some sort, but since the S-100 can be operated in bursts or in loops at an arbitrarily high speed anyway, I doubt there's a need for a FIFO. What boards there were or are isn't really relevant, since the target is to produce a useful tool. Pointing out the weaknesses, which, after all this time are either forgotten by or known to all of us, of one tool or another, won't help. What I'm addressing is using TODAY's technology to facilitate testing and verification of the S-100 bus. We're free to assume that the width of various signals can be adjusted in 10 ns increments just to determine what might work the best, even if the CPU can't really generate that waveform, and we're free to try solutions to the S-100's 7 equations in 4 unknowns, not only as a linear programming problem, but with discrete attempts with each possible solution, even though our CPU doesn't play that way, just to find out what really is wrong. This stuff is, in some cases, over 20 years old. Digital circuit design has evolved considerably since the '70's and, as it happens, much of what was sold on the S-100 market really didn't work, not because it was designed back in the '70's, but because it was designed badly. Some of it worked, "sorta," when in combination with specific other components (boards) but others didn't really work reliably, (e.g. survive a 1k-hour test/burn-in) under any circumstances. Unfortunately, sometimes the very circuits we wanted to use were in this category and wouldn't work with OUR hardware, even though it seemed to work fine with THEIRs at the store/trade-show-whatever, where we first saw it. What I would do if now were then is try a board in my existing test system to see if it caught fire or did something equally irksome. If it worked, I'd smile and proceed, and if it didn't, I'd attempt to find out why. If the board is claimed to be IEEE-STD-696 compliant, I'd try driving it with a '696-compatible set of signals to see if it behaved as expected. If yes, then I'd have CPU issues to resolve, not "new-board" ones. The tool I've essentially proposed enables you to do that without having to buy '696-compliant boards, since you can't readily pick up the phone and order them. It will, however, support you in an effort to whittle at each of the boards you want to use in order to make them work and play well with the others you wish to use, regardless how recalcitrant. Features I've already built in include the abilities you mentioned, examine and deposit memory content, easily extended, by the way to ensuring that the memory works consistently, stop the processor, single-step through execution of a program or cycle, jam an instruction onto the bus during an instruction fetch, etc. What's more, it can do this without a CPU in the system, or, assuming the CPU can do this, it can float the CPU and do "correctly" what you think the CPU is doing incorrectly just to ensure the fault is on the board you think it is. Anyway, people who've had the experience of bringing up a dead multi-board system in which the various manufacturers had no convention as to defaults or operating modes, in which it was a given that three or five boards, though all functional could and usually did yield a system which did nothing until the incompatibilities were ironed out, and in which there were no guarantees that ALL the components would work together at all, would have a really good idea of what features a generalized emulation/troubleshooting tool like this one should have. Resurrecting a 20-year old S-100 is VERY different from bringing up an old PDP-8. In the latter case, the bus standards were set by DEC, who knew what they wanted to put out there. In the S-100, boards were often designed by people with incorrect and/or incomplete information about what had to be on the bus in order for it to work correctly. They were virtually always designed with incomplete information about how other mfg's boards behaved on the bus. What's more, that behavior was likely to change, depending on how the CPU or other bus masters behaved. Since it's difficult to get detailed information about how a board you just bought at the flea-market works, you have to figure that out for yourself. This is a tool for doing that. It won't do it automatically but it will help you. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp@world.std.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, October 07, 1999 7:03 AM Subject: Re: S-100 Bus >> on the MULTIBUS-I. The only case in which I've used a front panel has been >> the one MULTIBUS-user-client I had once whose SW types thought it would >> help. I doubt that it did, but it was a fun job! > >All the multibus bring ups were done using CPUs like intel 80/20 or >national BLC204, even if the bus was a mess you could run with these >as ram/rom/io on board were alive. > >> I agree, except that I belive that your PC-compatible would make an even >> better FP substitute, with its nearly 1 GHz processor, 1GB of RAM and > >Not to say it can't. The SBC880 was a z80/serial/parallel/rom/ram on one >card and more of less had those function isolated from the bus. This >allowed severly crunched bus to be driven while having the luxuray of a >real cpu and terminal interface. I used my own debug monitor in Eprom. >The key is I still have it, and I used it from the early 80s on. > >For board level debug the explorer 8085 was good as s100 was >the 'add on bus" so if the card was not running you could >drive/interrogate it. > >> several 3-doz-GB HDD's. Moreover, since it can not only load programs and >> monitor their execution, clock-tick-by-clock-tick, and disassemble >> unfamiliar code in real time, generally waiting for the resident processor >> to catch up, it has potential not yet exploited. You can use it for logic >> analysis, signature analysis/failure detection, code verification, >> profiling, etc. It's just another tool, but if it can be sold for less than >> IMSAI's FP, then it's not only an improved tool, but less costly, too. >> Since you can repetitively stimulate the S-100 in a short loop, you can >> easily address signal quality issues previous too slippery for most folks. >> You can look over the processor's shoulder or you can take him out of the >> loop and run things yourself. When you've narrowed the problem you have >> down to a small set of signals, you can poke around with your 'scope to see >> that all's as it should be. > >A s100 card with z80, io and enough ram and rom to run is a trivial board >and was cheap even in the early 80s. Using todays parts 64k of eprom, >64k (or more) of banked ram and other things would be not only simpler but >cheaper too! > >The PC approach depends on the processor having lots of speed. What if >all you have for this kind of task is a 486dx/33 or maybe an old P133? >Not evey one is invested in PCs to the ears. FYI: my hottest PC is for on >line use and not for adding cards like that and it's only a P166 with >about 2.1gb. The only systems I have with an abundance of loose storage >are VAXen. > >> I never used a front panel until I was asked to build one for a >> multi-processor system on a VERY extended Multibus-I. That was fun and >> profitable, but wholly unnecessary, I felt, since all the processor boards >> were completely self-sufficient with the exception of mass storage, and >> since the CP/M image was in ROM, it didn't take long to boot, either. > >I started with PDP-8s, 10s then a CM2100 and firs micro was ALTAIR. FP >were ok for some thing where seeing state was nice. I used it more to mod >software that had IO that didn't match mine. It was the easiest way to >see what addresses it was looping at. > >> I've normally addressed lightning damage with a call to the insurance >> company, though they usually don't respond promptly. The procedure for >> socketed boards is to take the parts out and test them in a tester. Most >> prom programmers can do that. > >There were two proms in the entire system, 488 2102s, and lots of '367s, >241s, and '244s. Not to mention the fried terminal and printer. In 1979 a >logic tester for would have cost several times the system. Now, I'd toss >the MB and start fresh. > >> I really don't see how a logic probe can help you until you've narrowed the >> problem down to a single board. What's more, it's common enough to have >> several boards which work correctly in a system that doesn't. Sometimes >> they just don't work and play well with others. CompuPro boards were famous >> for this. They often wouldn't work with other boards from CompuPro. They >> weren't alone in this, but their idea of interoperability was that MOST of >> the boards in a system which they sold would work together. Their excellent >> marketing and advertising made them the main force behind adoption of a >> standard too weak to work, and too vague to provide guidance. They, more >> than any other maker of S-100 stuff ignored whatever parts of the standard >> that it suited them to ignore, and they weren't alone. The problems of this >> sort are exactly the sort I'd seek to address with a bus probe. What's >> more, there are few tools which will automatically allow you to find >> inadvertent connections between signals, say, because of a mis-jumpered >> board, or such, or to find that what one board maker uses for signal is GND >> to another. > >S100 was nice in one respect you could strip the bus and plug in pboard >until it broke. > >Allison > > From elvey at hal.com Thu Oct 7 13:20:21 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: Running a 220v computer in a 110v environment In-Reply-To: <002501bf10df$66316d90$d252e780@tower166.office> Message-ID: <199910071820.LAA08963@civic.hal.com> "Daniel T. Burrows" wrote: > The only safe way is to use a transformer that is correctly wired. US mains > is > 120 - neutral - 120. which gives 240 between the 2 hots. European mains are > 240 - neutral. Both expect the neutral to be at / near ground potential. If > you wire it to US 240 directly what was neutral in Europe will be at 120v. I > have several isolation / step up transformers that I routinely use to > accomplish > this. You need to be careful how they are wired in order to have both primary > and secondary tied correctly to neutral and the grounds MUST be kept separate > from the neutral to meet US electrical code. > Hi When using an isolation transformer, the transformer needs to handle the entire power. If you use an auto-transformer arrangement, you only need half as big a transformer. What I have done in the past is look for supply transformers that have configurable AC for 110/120. I save these from old supplies that would otherwise be scrap. When I need a boost or dropping transformer, I just wire up the primaries as an auto-transformer. I compare the core volumes of the units transformer with the transformer that you are using as the auto-transformer. If the core volume of the auto-transformer is 50% as big as the units, you should have no problems with power. You can just leave the secondaries open. Dwight From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Oct 7 13:20:12 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: Dangers of shifting classic computers (was: AT&T PC 6300 Plus Unix box) In-Reply-To: <003801bf10e1$8c46cf00$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> Message-ID: <4.1.19991007141642.009e9e60@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 12:32 PM 10/7/99 -0400, daniel said something like: > -- snip -- >My worst injuries are: > >RK05 / PDP 11/34 (no help) - bad lower back. > >Honeywell 316 - cyanide poisoning, was in the hospital, wished I was dead >for a good 4-5 days as my insides were eaten out. > >Honeywell 316 - The scrap dealer (Wayne Borer) that got the unit for me >brought it to the house when I was rather young. They got the entire case >(included H316, fixed head DH, interface bays, air conditioner) to end of >the truck when it started to fall. It fell on his NUTS! 3 guys (including my >dad) held the case away from killing him. He rolled on the ground for at >least 30 minutes in extreme pain. He never did have any kids after that. > >Honeywell 316 - Rack mounted on a flimbsy case, fell over one night and >badly damaged the headboard on my bed. (kept it in my bedroom) Sounds like that 316 did NOT want to live with you! What's that cyanide bit? Was it some sort of varmint poison spread around inside the cabinet or was it something used in the machine itself? If used with the machine, I can't possibly think what for . . . Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Oct 7 13:21:09 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: SGI Hardware Developer Handbooks available Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991007132109.00dc2ec0@vpwisfirewall> I just tried to answer a question from someone on the Greenkeys mailing list, regarding interfacing an ASR-33 to RS-232. My answer is below. I hope I got it right. - John At 11:30 AM 10/7/99 -0400, Barry Hall wrote: >Hello John and Christian, > > I was referred to you by Don Robert regarding connecting an ASR 33 to a >Microcomputer RS232 Serial COM port. Any help you can give me would be greatly >appreciated. The ASR-33 usually has what's referred to as a "20 milliamp current loop" interface. It's not RS-232. You can buy converter boxes from places like , like the one at . There's an explanation at , , and . I'm sure someone has a web page with a homebrew conversion between current loop and RS-232. The voltage levels and swings aren't the same, so it's not just a matter of wiring. The circuit at might be right. - John From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Oct 7 13:24:26 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: Dangers of shifting classic computers (was: AT&T PC 6300 Plus Unix box) In-Reply-To: <004501bf10e4$3b4aa9c0$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> Message-ID: <4.1.19991007142047.00aa32a0@206.231.8.2> Nevermind my msg I just posted. I see pbboy was equally curious. Upon the date 12:51 PM 10/7/99 -0400, daniel said something like: >> >>How do you get cyanide poisoning from a computer? What parts used cyanide? >> >I got quite dizzy after a while and stopped working on it. What I didn't >know was this particular chemical had sodium cyanide in it. That night I got --Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From rmeenaks at olf.com Thu Oct 7 13:29:53 1999 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: Running a 220v computer in a 110v environment References: <4.1.19991007104850.00a61100@206.231.8.2> <37FCE292.5EE6722@olf.com> Message-ID: <37FCE6A1.7B3EE3EC@olf.com> Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > I havent opened it up or even given a good look at it. It is pretty funny > looking though. It has 16 T805-30Mhz transputers with 4Megs per node in it. > The thing gets pretty hot, so the sides of the chasis has two big heat sinks. > Take a look at this picture: > I prematurely send the email. Here is a picture of the xplorer: http://www.thenet.ch/tntech/xplbig.gif Ram -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | Senior Software Engineer | OpenLink Financial Inc | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ From daniel at internet.look.ca Thu Oct 7 13:40:05 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: Current Loop Converter Message-ID: <007f01bf10f3$606fcbe0$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> ftp://ftp.bb-elec.com/bb-elec/literature/232pclin.pdf This is the full schematic of an industrial one. I built one with two transistors years ago.. I will dig up my design and post it (used it on a DG-116) -----Original Message----- From: John Foust To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, October 07, 1999 2:23 PM Subject: SGI Hardware Developer Handbooks available > >I just tried to answer a question from someone on the Greenkeys >mailing list, regarding interfacing an ASR-33 to RS-232. My answer >is below. I hope I got it right. > >- John > >At 11:30 AM 10/7/99 -0400, Barry Hall wrote: >>Hello John and Christian, >> >> I was referred to you by Don Robert regarding connecting an ASR 33 to a >>Microcomputer RS232 Serial COM port. Any help you can give me would be >greatly >>appreciated. > >The ASR-33 usually has what's referred to as a "20 milliamp current loop" >interface. It's not RS-232. You can buy converter boxes from places >like , like the one at >guest.asp?param=95&ig_id=598&title=High%2DSpeed+RS%2D232%26lt%3B%26gt%3BCur r >ent%2DLoop+Interface+Converter&related=>. > >There's an explanation at , > , > >and . > >I'm sure someone has a web page with a homebrew conversion between >current loop and RS-232. The voltage levels and swings aren't the >same, so it's not just a matter of wiring. > >The circuit at > >might be right. > >- John > From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 7 13:41:12 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:45 2005 Subject: Running a 220v computer in a 110v environment References: <37FCE6A1.7B3EE3EC@olf.com> Message-ID: <99100714413611.15883@vault.neurotica.com> On Thu, 07 Oct 1999, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: >> I havent opened it up or even given a good look at it. It is pretty funny >> looking though. It has 16 T805-30Mhz transputers with 4Megs per node in it. >> The thing gets pretty hot, so the sides of the chasis has two big heat sinks. >> Take a look at this picture: >> > >I prematurely send the email. Here is a picture of the xplorer: > >http://www.thenet.ch/tntech/xplbig.gif How big is that thing? -Dave McGuire From jim at calico.litterbox.com Thu Oct 7 13:46:34 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: Running a 220v computer in a 110v environment In-Reply-To: <37FCAAE4.F6264253@olf.com> from "Ram Meenakshisundaram" at Oct 07, 1999 10:15:01 AM Message-ID: <199910071846.MAA27149@calico.litterbox.com> I don't think you'll want to do this, as US line power is also at 60hz, where I think British power is at 50. You can get 220 volts from your dryer or stove sockets. They'll have a ton more amperage than you need, but that shouldn't make any difference. Again, though, the difference in frequency may really cause problems, and the current behind american 220 is enough to feed an arc welder, so be careful. > > Hi, > > Probably some of you have already done this. I have an equipment, a > parsytec xplorer, that runs a 220v. I got it from across the pond. > Since I am in the states and the power output is 110v, is there any way > for me to run this without getting a transformer to pump it up to > 220v??? Unfortunately, the parsytec doesnt convert automatically like > PC and laptops of today. In my apartment, there is a funny looking plug > next to out AC. I remember somewhat vaugely that it is actually 220v. > Is this true??? How did you guys solve this problem???? I want to get > a good solid response before I blow up the machine :-) > > Ram > > > -- > > ,,,, > /'^'\ > ( o o ) > -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- > | Ram Meenakshisundaram > | Senior Software Engineer > | OpenLink Financial Inc > | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 > | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com > ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- > \_) ) / > (_/ > > > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Oct 7 13:47:20 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: Mostek MK4027N Message-ID: <199910071847.SAA22547@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Does anyone know how many memory bits are in a Mostek MK4027N? Its also labelled S7748A. I'm guessing its either 4K x 1, or 16K x 1, which would mean the pdp8/a memory board I have is either the 32K or 128K model. I suppose it could be 2K x 1 as well (there are only 3 ram sizes for this board). -Lawrence LeMay From rmeenaks at olf.com Thu Oct 7 13:52:39 1999 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: Running a 220v computer in a 110v environment References: <37FCE6A1.7B3EE3EC@olf.com> <99100714413611.15883@vault.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <37FCEBF7.B12640AE@olf.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Thu, 07 Oct 1999, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > >> I havent opened it up or even given a good look at it. It is pretty funny > >> looking though. It has 16 T805-30Mhz transputers with 4Megs per node in it. > >> The thing gets pretty hot, so the sides of the chasis has two big heat sinks. > >> Take a look at this picture: > >> > > > >I prematurely send the email. Here is a picture of the xplorer: > > > >http://www.thenet.ch/tntech/xplbig.gif > > How big is that thing? > It is about 3/4 the size of standard PC tower and it is about 3/4 the thickness of a PC. So, it isnt terribly big. The picture shows four xplorers. I only have one of those boxes. You can hook up others to build a larger parallel computer. It has a fixed 4x4 grid topology. Actually, the picture is really the power xplorer, but it looks the same as the xplorer. The power explorer has 4 PowerPC chips in it with 4 transputers as communication harnesses for the PowerPCs. The xplorer was phased out in favor of the PowerPC a while back. Ram -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | Senior Software Engineer | OpenLink Financial Inc | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991007/f88a5cc8/attachment.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 7 14:02:15 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: RS232 v 20ma (was: SGI Hardware Developer Handbooks available In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991007132109.00dc2ec0@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: The original IBM PC (NOT CLONE!) Serial port card was nominally switchable to be used as either RS232 OR 20ma current loop! -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 On Thu, 7 Oct 1999, John Foust wrote: > > I just tried to answer a question from someone on the Greenkeys > mailing list, regarding interfacing an ASR-33 to RS-232. My answer > is below. I hope I got it right. > > - John > > At 11:30 AM 10/7/99 -0400, Barry Hall wrote: > >Hello John and Christian, > > > > I was referred to you by Don Robert regarding connecting an ASR 33 to a > >Microcomputer RS232 Serial COM port. Any help you can give me would be > greatly > >appreciated. > > The ASR-33 usually has what's referred to as a "20 milliamp current loop" > interface. It's not RS-232. You can buy converter boxes from places > like , like the one at > guest.asp?param=95&ig_id=598&title=High%2DSpeed+RS%2D232%26lt%3B%26gt%3BCurr > ent%2DLoop+Interface+Converter&related=>. > > There's an explanation at , > , > > and . > > I'm sure someone has a web page with a homebrew conversion between > current loop and RS-232. The voltage levels and swings aren't the > same, so it's not just a matter of wiring. > > The circuit at > > might be right. > > - John From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Thu Oct 7 14:06:25 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: Dangers of shifting classic computers (was: AT&T PC 6300 Plus Unix box) (fwd) Message-ID: I guess my types of experiences fall into the categories of electric shock, muscle strains, smashed body parts, poison, and loss of sleep. I am not too bright. And I think of myself as sort of a tough, rugged, manly-man type of guy most of the time (hangover from playing rugby, I guess). Anyway, I have moved some things that should have required 3 or 4 people by myself (eg refrigerators, pool tables, etc) and really injured my back moving a Cipher 880 9-track drive a year or so ago. Agony! Not to mention being virtually useless for more than two weeks and having to go to physical therapy. I'm also generally too careless with electricity. I have been zapped by stupidly reaching into things and touching capacitors so bad that I've actually almost lost consciousness a few times. Now that I have a family I *try* to be more careful, but old habits die hard. I've broken a couple of fingers and toes by dropping things on them; it's amazing how much damage the hard, steel edge of a cabinet can do from just a few inches. My poison episodes have been dandies! The most recent was that black widow bite I posted about recently. The other was a *large* hp printer boxed in a wooden crate (recent model, 5si/mx with paper sorter, etc). When I removed it, I noticed that it was covered with some oily liquid. Completely dismissing this as somthing inert, I spend several hours working on it; sticking my head inside the cabinet, running my hands on it, eventually ending up with that oily liquid all over my hands, face, head, and I'm sure some was ingested from my hands/lips. Then I got sick. REALLY sick. Sick, like I wanted to die sick. It turns out that the guy who send it had sprayed poison into the crate to kill the wasps that had taken it over and neglected to tell us... Aaron On Thu, 7 Oct 1999, Peter Pachla wrote: > Hi, > > >....This machine will alwas have a special place in my collection > >though, since it is so heavy I sprained a muscle in my back while > >lifting it so bad that I needed several weeks of therapy to cure. > >One of the hazards of the old computer collector... > > Quite, I've managed to injure myself a number of times shifting medium/large > sized machines over the years. > > I trapped a nerve in my back both times I shifted my old PDP-11/23+ (in an > H960 cab with a pair of RL-01s). And please, believe me, shifting a PDP-11/34 > by yourself is NOT a good idea....my back muscles still wince at the thought. > > Also managed to strain a couple of back muscles when I moved my SGI 4D/70GT > into the house. There were two of us moving that beastie and we'd taken all > the boards out of it first (they're about the weight of my 11/53 on their > own). > > > Not to mention that I've been in agony for a week now with a trapped nerve in > my shoulder. But then again there really was no way to disassemble that "Space > Invaders II" machine which I was moving out of the house.... > > Anyone else hurt themselves, lost limbs etc??? ;-) > > > TTFN - Pete. > > -- > Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. > Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) > > peter.pachla@virgin.net | > peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | > peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk > -- > > From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Oct 7 15:10:15 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: Running a 220v computer in a 110v environment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > the PSU? Plugging a device with a ferroresonant transformer (a > transformer+inductor combination that is quite well regulated but very > dependent on input frequency) into an incorrect frequency power source is > likely to yield unpleasant results. Dang, forgot about them. Not a good thing, Never seen one cook but they don't work right either. The key was my first comments regarding what IS IN THERE. If you know that it's easier to go from there. I really hate speculating on whatever it may be rather than knowing. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Oct 7 15:22:12 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: S-100 Bus In-Reply-To: <000601bf10ef$9da92780$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: Much snippage... First off 2mhz was a short lived event in s100 world. Also there were three ssets of basic timing, those from 8080s, 8085s and also the z80s. > Features I've already built in include the abilities you mentioned, examine > and deposit memory content, easily extended, by the way to ensuring that the > memory works consistently, stop the processor, single-step through execution Don't forget memory that was CPU specific and pseudo synchronous like MITS 88MCD or S4k or the vector 48k that required Z80 /refresh. Interesting concept but likely it will not work in my pokey 486DX or the 386sx/16 I have the logic analyser in. I'll still fix more boxes with far less. My problem often enough was that there were too many times hwere the new hardware used to facilitate the testing was more suspect and complex than the target system. Then again if I were making more than a few hundred a year with minimally skilled people, automated test is very nice. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 7 12:58:59 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: Next steps (was Re: pdp 8/e) In-Reply-To: <19991007040144.7568.rocketmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 6, 99 09:01:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2587 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991007/d4080aba/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 7 13:17:24 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: Running a 220v computer in a 110v environment In-Reply-To: <37FCAAE4.F6264253@olf.com> from "Ram Meenakshisundaram" at Oct 7, 99 10:15:01 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2852 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991007/74c5910e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 7 13:26:22 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: Running a 220v computer in a 110v environment In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991007104850.00a61100@206.231.8.2> from "Christian Fandt" at Oct 7, 99 11:15:54 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3540 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991007/c7308019/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 7 13:30:28 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: Dangers of shifting classic computers (was: AT&T PC 6300 Plus Unix box) In-Reply-To: <016201bf10df$4ab9b860$1347883e@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Oct 7, 99 04:54:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 898 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991007/633d9ca2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 7 13:32:58 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: Running a 220v computer in a 110v environment In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at Oct 7, 99 12:27:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 370 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991007/db23a213/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 7 13:45:05 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: Running a 220v computer in a 110v environment In-Reply-To: <80256803.005CC09B.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk" at Oct 7, 99 05:56:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3706 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991007/e2943856/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Thu Oct 7 15:59:31 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: Mostek MK4027N Message-ID: <000801bf1106$e400d900$0400c0a8@winbook> The MK4027 is a 4K-bit DRAM organized as 4Kx1. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Lawrence LeMay To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, October 07, 1999 12:53 PM Subject: Mostek MK4027N >Does anyone know how many memory bits are in a Mostek MK4027N? Its >also labelled S7748A. > >I'm guessing its either 4K x 1, or 16K x 1, which would mean the >pdp8/a memory board I have is either the 32K or 128K model. I suppose >it could be 2K x 1 as well (there are only 3 ram sizes for this >board). > >-Lawrence LeMay > From elvey at hal.com Thu Oct 7 16:07:19 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: Running a 220v computer in a 110v environment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199910072107.OAA09060@civic.hal.com> Scott Ware wrote: > On Thu, 7 Oct 1999 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > > Usually, (I know of no exceptions) if it runs on 50hz it runs on 60. > > Weren't there a few S-100 boxes that used ferroresonant transformers in > the PSU? Plugging a device with a ferroresonant transformer (a > transformer+inductor combination that is quite well regulated but very > dependent on input frequency) into an incorrect frequency power source is > likely to yield unpleasant results. > > Although ferroresonant transformers are relatively uncommon (except in > UPSes and line conditioning systems), the possiblity of encountering a > ferroresonant transformer in the PSU is a good reason to be careful when > powering up an unknown box on the "wrong" frequency for the first time. Hi Besides the ferroresonant transformers issue, if it is a switcher power supply, many are configurable for 110V. Often times there is a jumper on the supply to select which it will be used on. When in the 110 mode, they have a voltage doubler type of rectifier. This makes the DC into the swithcing transistor the same. Some newer switchers I've seen will run on a continuious range of voltages from 80 to 250 volts. Still, look at the supplies to see what your options are. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 7 15:45:07 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: Running a 220v computer in a 110v environment In-Reply-To: <37FCE292.5EE6722@olf.com> from "Ram Meenakshisundaram" at Oct 7, 99 02:12:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1484 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991007/3276864b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 7 15:50:48 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: Mostek MK4027N In-Reply-To: <199910071847.SAA22547@thorin.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Oct 7, 99 06:47:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 920 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991007/48da312a/attachment.ksh From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Oct 7 17:06:06 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: Mostek MK4027N Message-ID: <19991007220606.3493.rocketmail@web607.mail.yahoo.com> --- Lawrence LeMay wrote: > Does anyone know how many memory bits are in a Mostek MK4027N? Its > also labelled S7748A. > > I'm guessing its either 4K x 1, or 16K x 1, which would mean the > pdp8/a memory board I have is either the 32K or 128K model. AFAIK, it's 4Kx1. The 128K board is hex-wide because it uses the fifth edge for extra address bits (along with the KT8A for control). -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Oct 7 17:44:44 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: SGI Hardware Developer Handbooks available In-Reply-To: John Foust "SGI Hardware Developer Handbooks available" (Oct 7, 12:53) References: <3.0.5.32.19991007125337.00dbf3b0@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: <9910072344.ZM1247@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Hi, John. On Oct 7, 12:53, John Foust wrote: > Subject: SGI Hardware Developer Handbooks available > > I've got two of these available at no charge to anyone who wants them. > They describe the pin-outs, etc. of the internal and external connectors > of the SGI line from the 4D through the rest of the line up to about 1995. > They're about an inch thick, spiral-bound. My goodness, I'd *kill* for one of those! I've been wanting to build a board for an Indy for ages (I could do it for an R3000 Indogo instead, though, if the book doesn't go that "new")... The only problem is, I'm in the UK. Could you send one if I sent you a few dollar bills to cover US Postal Service "Global Priority Flat Rate Envelope"? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Oct 7 17:53:37 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: SGI Hardware Developer Handbooks available References: <3.0.5.32.19991007125337.00dbf3b0@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: <015801bf1116$cb710e40$30721fd1@jrkeysppt> I will also take one email me your zip and I will look up postage and send it to you. Also weight of book. ----- Original Message ----- From: John Foust To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Thursday, October 07, 1999 12:53 PM Subject: SGI Hardware Developer Handbooks available > > I've got two of these available at no charge to anyone who wants them. > They describe the pin-outs, etc. of the internal and external connectors > of the SGI line from the 4D through the rest of the line up to about 1995. > They're about an inch thick, spiral-bound. > > - John > > From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Oct 7 18:22:06 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: pdp 8/e In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991006134239.00bf35d0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from Chuck McManis at "Oct 6, 1999 01:58:32 pm" Message-ID: <199910072322.XAA08574@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > > All in all a pretty good catch. While it may be hard to get core for this > thing you can find MOS memory systems at various places. The thing to worry > about will be the top connectors. If you don't have them you can make them > but it isn't fun. Some folks on the pdp8-lovers list might have spares. > Why would it be difficult to make replacement top connectors? I must be missing something obvious, but cant you just crimp ribbon cable onto a pair of 36 pin edgeboard connectors? Or dont they make IDC connectors of the appropriate size? -Lawrence LeMay From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 7 19:42:05 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: pdp 8/e In-Reply-To: <199910072322.XAA08574@thorin.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Oct 7, 99 06:22:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 584 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991008/6ac1439f/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Oct 7 19:53:45 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: SGI Hardware Developer Handbooks available In-Reply-To: pete@indy (Pete Turnbull) "Re: SGI Hardware Developer Handbooks available" (Oct 7, 22:44) References: <3.0.5.32.19991007125337.00dbf3b0@vpwisfirewall> <9910072344.ZM1247@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <9910080153.ZM1522@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 7, 22:44, Pete Turnbull wrote: ...a message he should have sent to the original author, not the list. Apologies for the noise. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Thu Oct 7 20:10:25 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: pdp 8/e In-Reply-To: <199910072322.XAA08574@thorin.cs.umn.edu> References: <4.1.19991006134239.00bf35d0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991007181025.006c92e4@mail.sfu.ca> Hi Lawrence: At 06:22 PM 10/7/99 -0500, you wrote: >Why would it be difficult to make replacement top connectors? I must be >missing something obvious, but cant you just crimp ribbon cable onto >a pair of 36 pin edgeboard connectors? Or dont they make IDC connectors >of the appropriate size? I tried everywhere for these connectors, they are a not-common .125" spacing. I finally found some at a surplus place in San Diego. Had to drive 1500 miles to get them though! I can dig out the name of the place, they had lots a few months ago when I was last there. If you find IDC connectors in this size/spacing, let me know. I will buy some too. Kevin ========================================================== Sgt. Kevin McQuiggin, Vancouver Police Department E-Comm Project (604) 215-5095; Cell: (604) 868-0544 Email: mcquiggi@sfu.ca From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Oct 7 20:36:01 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: SGI Hardware Developer Handbooks available In-Reply-To: <9910072344.ZM1247@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <3.0.5.32.19991007125337.00dbf3b0@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991007203601.0122ab10@vpwisfirewall> At 10:44 PM 10/7/99 GMT, you wrote: > >My goodness, I'd *kill* for one of those! I've been wanting to build a >board for an Indy for ages (I could do it for an R3000 Indogo instead, >though, if the book doesn't go that "new")... Sorry, the two I had went quickly. I'm sure that's the case for almost anything that's given away on this list - they last a few hours at most. I had no idea these were rare. Otherwise I would've auctioned them on eBay. :-) I received mine after joining the SGI developer program four-five years ago. There must be others out there. I would also guess that pestering the right person within SGI (or what's left of it) would net a copy, too. I'll re-examine the manuals at the office tomorrow, and see if the Indy internals are a small section to photocopy. - John From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 7 20:42:36 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: SGI Hardware Developer Handbooks available References: <3.0.5.32.19991007203601.0122ab10@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: <99100721433206.17840@vault.neurotica.com> On Thu, 07 Oct 1999, John Foust wrote: >>My goodness, I'd *kill* for one of those! I've been wanting to build a >>board for an Indy for ages (I could do it for an R3000 Indogo instead, >>though, if the book doesn't go that "new")... > >Sorry, the two I had went quickly. I'm sure that's the case for almost >anything that's given away on this list - they last a few hours at most. > >I had no idea these were rare. Otherwise I would've auctioned them >on eBay. :-) I received mine after joining the SGI developer program >four-five years ago. There must be others out there. I would also guess >that pestering the right person within SGI (or what's left of it) would >net a copy, too. I'll re-examine the manuals at the office tomorrow, >and see if the Indy internals are a small section to photocopy. I paid just short of $200.00 for one on eBay about six months ago. I'm glad it's paid for itself. -Dave McGuire From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Oct 7 21:42:42 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: pdp 8/e In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19991007181025.006c92e4@mail.sfu.ca> from Kevin McQuiggin at "Oct 7, 1999 06:10:25 pm" Message-ID: <199910080242.CAA08802@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > Hi Lawrence: > > At 06:22 PM 10/7/99 -0500, you wrote: > >Why would it be difficult to make replacement top connectors? I must be > >missing something obvious, but cant you just crimp ribbon cable onto > >a pair of 36 pin edgeboard connectors? Or dont they make IDC connectors > >of the appropriate size? > > I tried everywhere for these connectors, they are a not-common .125" > spacing. I finally found some at a surplus place in San Diego. Had to drive > 1500 miles to get them though! You drove 1500 miles to maybe find the correct connector? Did I mention I'm part owner of the Brooklyn bridge, and could be persuaded to sell my interests in it for a reasonable fee? > > I can dig out the name of the place, they had lots a few months ago when I > was last there. > > If you find IDC connectors in this size/spacing, let me know. I will buy > some too. > > Kevin > Were the ones you bought usable with standard IDE ribbon cable? or were they solder eyelet versions? I see Digikey sells these with solder eyelets, but the smallest they sell is a 44 connector, and we're looking for 36... I'm not in immediate need for this, but it would be a great thing to buy a supply of while they are still available. -Lawrence LeMay From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Thu Oct 7 21:59:30 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: DEC Edge Connectors In-Reply-To: <199910080242.CAA08802@thorin.cs.umn.edu> References: <3.0.1.32.19991007181025.006c92e4@mail.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991007195930.006b93cc@mail.sfu.ca> At 09:42 PM 10/7/99 -0500, you wrote: >You drove 1500 miles to maybe find the correct connector? Did I mention I'm >part owner of the Brooklyn bridge, and could be persuaded to sell my >interests in it for a reasonable fee? Well the trip was actually to pick up a dual RX01 floppy drive from John Lawson in Los Angeles, the trip from LA to San Diego was to visit one of my friends who lives there. I found the connectors during a junk scrounge with my friend. >Were the ones you bought usable with standard IDE ribbon cable? or were >they solder eyelet versions? I see Digikey sells these with solder eyelets, >but the smallest they sell is a 44 connector, and we're looking for 36... They have 1/2" solder tails, and can be used to make the edge connectors with a suitable small circuit board. I'll have to make the circuit board myself. >I'm not in immediate need for this, but it would be a great thing to >buy a supply of while they are still available. I can dig up the name of the place if you need it. Kevin ========================================================== Sgt. Kevin McQuiggin, Vancouver Police Department E-Comm Project (604) 215-5095; Cell: (604) 868-0544 Email: mcquiggi@sfu.ca From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Oct 7 22:07:35 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: Running a 220v computer in a 110v environment In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19991007104850.00a61100@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <4.1.19991007225530.00aa15f0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 07:26 PM 10/7/99 +0100, Tony Duell said something like: > >> Next, have an electrician friend get a correct connector and _correctly_ >> wire it up and you're good to go. If there is no fuse protection in the PSU > >Oh come on... I work with 240V almost every day of my life. Fitting a >220V plug, or wiring up a fused adapter cable, or anything like that is >hardly rocket science.... Excuse me, although I don't particularly care to get into a tussle on this, Ram may not have any experience with working with mains power. We don't know as he hasn't said anything about that yet. Maybe he moonlights as a power plant engineer in the 115KV switch vault at his local utility plant. The statement is intended to assure him he is welcome to get expert help, if desired, in getting his machine connected (if in fact the PSU is not settable to 115VAC) rather than take a risk. It doesn't matter whether you work with 240 every day --even less than 115V can kill. Having done industrial wiring for several years, I know 480VAC is not a problem when one respects it. -- Chris -- -- From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Oct 7 23:21:57 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: VCF 3.0 Exhibitor Award Winners Message-ID: I wanted the winners of the first VCF Computer Faire to be recognized, so here is the list. I plan to put up a web page listing the winners along with a photo of each exhibitor in front of their exhibit. I hope to have it up within a couple weeks. Note to any exhibitors reading this: we'll be getting ribbons for all 2nd and 3rd place winners, as well as the 1st place winners who didn't get a ribbon (because we ran out :) We at the VCF felt everyone who placed should get recognition for putting in the effort to help make the exhibit the success it was. I'll be contacting all exhibitors by e-mail to get your address in about a week or so. The exhibits were fantastic! I hope more people will participate next year. CLASS AWARDS Class Home-brew, kit, or educational - Any vintage ================================================== Best in Class #10 Heathkit Educational Robots Jim Willing 2nd in Class #6 Single Plywood Computer Dwight Elvey 3rd in Class #3 Conway's Game of Life Dave Dameron Manufatured Microcomputer - Pre 1981 ==================================== Best in Class #4 IBM 5100 Model B2 Wayne Smith 2nd in Class #9 Altair 8800 TimeShared BASIC Jim Willing 3rd in Class #29 Atari 800 Larry Anderson Manufactured Microcomputer - Post 1981 ====================================== Best in Class #13 East German Computers Hans Franke 2nd in Class #40 The Complete Canon Cat John Bumgarner 3rd in Class #28 Northstar Advantage Shawn Neely Mini-Computer or larger system - Any vintage ============================================ Best in Class #26 DEC GT40 Eric Smith 2nd in Class #24 PDP-8/E running FOCAL-8 Chuck McManis 3rd in Class #39 The AT&T 3B2-300 Desktop Powerhouse Richard Harrington Other ===== Best in Class #14 Realtime Software Bench Testing Michael Kan 2nd in Class #19 Marchant ACR8M Calculator (Calculator Exhibit) Derek Peschel 3rd in Class #32 Analog Computers of the 1960s Douglas Coward SPECIAL AWARDS Best Presentation ================= Research #13 East German Computers Hans Franke Completeness #4 IBM 5100 Model B2 Wayne Smith Display #35 The IMSAI Dollhouse Todd Fisher Creative Integration with Contemporary Technology #33 Relay Electromechanical Computer David Witherell Best Preservation ================= Original Condition #37 Evolution of the Macintosh Paul Zurakowski Restoration #24 PDP-8/E running FOCAL-8 Chuck McManis Recreation #12 MUNIAC John Zabolitzky Simulation #7 CMOS uP & Homebrew Forth Tom Belpasso Obscurity #3 Conway's Game of Life Dave Dameron Best Technology =============== Analog #32 Analog Computers of the 1960s Douglas Coward Non-Electronic #19 Marchant ACR8M Calculator (Calculator Exhibit) Derek Peschel People's Choice =============== #37 Evolution of the Macintosh Paul Zurakowski BEST OF SHOW #13 East German Computers Hans Franke Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. VCF East? VCF Europe!? YOU BETCHA!! Stay tuned for more information or contact me to find out how you can participate http://www.vintage.org From donm at cts.com Thu Oct 7 23:25:53 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: DEC Edge Connectors In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19991007195930.006b93cc@mail.sfu.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Oct 1999, Kevin McQuiggin wrote: > I found the connectors during a junk scrounge with my friend. > > They have 1/2" solder tails, and can be used to make the edge connectors > with a suitable small circuit board. I'll have to make the circuit board > myself. > > I can dig up the name of the place if you need it. Kevin, send me the name of the place and perhaps I can save someone else a 1500 mile drive :) Be happy to pick some up if I have any idea how many are wanted. - don From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Fri Oct 8 05:26:25 1999 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: DEC Edge Connectors In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19991007195930.006b93cc@mail.sfu.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 07 Oct 1999 19:59:30 -0700 Kevin McQuiggin wrote: > At 09:42 PM 10/7/99 -0500, you wrote: > >You drove 1500 miles to maybe find the correct connector? > > Well the trip was actually to pick up a dual RX01 floppy drive from John > Lawson in Los Angeles, the trip from LA to San Diego was to visit one of my > friends who lives there. > > I found the connectors during a junk scrounge with my friend. Well, I went from Bristol, UK to Dayton, Ohio (via Boston) in order to visit a junk emporium and buy: NIXIE TUBES!!!! And I even got them back through the airport X-ray machines without any questions... -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From rmeenaks at olf.com Fri Oct 8 07:43:09 1999 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: Running a 220v computer in a 110v environment References: <4.1.19991007104850.00a61100@206.231.8.2> <4.1.19991007225530.00aa15f0@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <37FDE6DC.22D5DB39@olf.com> Christian Fandt wrote: > Upon the date 07:26 PM 10/7/99 +0100, Tony Duell said something like: > > > >> Next, have an electrician friend get a correct connector and _correctly_ > >> wire it up and you're good to go. If there is no fuse protection in the PSU > > > >Oh come on... I work with 240V almost every day of my life. Fitting a > >220V plug, or wiring up a fused adapter cable, or anything like that is > >hardly rocket science.... > > Excuse me, although I don't particularly care to get into a tussle on this, > Ram may not have any experience with working with mains power. We don't > know as he hasn't said anything about that yet. Yes I know it is not rocket science, but I want to extra extra careful. One wrong move can be the end of the machine. This is actually the first time I am going to do this by myself. My brother usually handles stuff like this, but he is a bit careless, so I didnt ask him. Besides, he doesnt hook up computers, usually toasters and other appliances that happen to be 220v. > Maybe he moonlights as a > power plant engineer in the 115KV switch vault at his local utility plant. No I dont moonlight as a power plant engineer, but I am a power software engineer :-) I design trading systems that trade power instead of the normal stocks, bonds, etc. > > The statement is intended to assure him he is welcome to get expert help, > if desired, in getting his machine connected (if in fact the PSU is not > settable to 115VAC) rather than take a risk. It doesn't matter whether you > work with 240 every day --even less than 115V can kill. Having done > industrial wiring for several years, I know 480VAC is not a problem when > one respects it. > I really appreciate all the advice everyone gave me. I am planning on actually opening it on Sat. I will post my findings and let everyone know what type of PSU, the labels and writings, etc on it. Thanks again Ram -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | Senior Software Engineer | OpenLink Financial Inc | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Oct 8 08:46:41 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: SGI Hardware Developer Handbooks available In-Reply-To: <99100721433206.17840@vault.neurotica.com> References: <3.0.5.32.19991007203601.0122ab10@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991008084641.00efc5f0@vpwisfirewall> At 09:42 PM 10/7/99 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: >On Thu, 07 Oct 1999, John Foust wrote: >>>My goodness, I'd *kill* for one of those! I've been wanting to build a >>>board for an Indy for ages (I could do it for an R3000 Indogo instead, >>>though, if the book doesn't go that "new")... > > I paid just short of $200.00 for one on eBay about six months ago. I'm glad >it's paid for itself. At first I thought you were pulling my leg. Maybe you are. Then I searched eBay. I didn't find any past auction like you described, but I did see dozens of other auctions selling the free CDs that SGI gave away at trade shows, each fetching $10-50, and SGI polo shirts, and other little trade show give-aways for $30. Insane. Off to the back room to look for goodies to sell to the unwashed. T-shirts? I can sell computer show give-away t-shirts on eBay? Gads, I've got boxes of unworn shirts in the basement, and I use them like tissues when I'm working in the yard or the barn! Not only that, I have rare Amiga t-shirts - the first Amiga wake party t-shirt, baseball caps, sweat shirts, NewTek shirts. Sheesh. Off to the basement. - John From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Oct 8 09:01:34 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: DEC Edge Connectors Message-ID: <19991008140134.12060.rocketmail@ web605.yahoomail.com> --- John Honniball wrote: > Well, I went from Bristol, UK to Dayton, Ohio (via Boston) > in order to visit a junk emporium and buy: > > NIXIE TUBES!!!! Mendelssons? (They are 90 minutes from my house ;-) -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Oct 8 09:19:42 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: DEC Edge Connectors In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19991007195930.006b93cc@mail.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <4.1.19991008101602.00abe720@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 11:26 AM 10/8/99 +0100, John Honniball said something like: > >On Thu, 07 Oct 1999 19:59:30 -0700 Kevin McQuiggin > wrote: >> At 09:42 PM 10/7/99 -0500, you wrote: >> >You drove 1500 miles to maybe find the correct connector? >> >> Well the trip was actually to pick up a dual RX01 floppy drive from John >> Lawson in Los Angeles, the trip from LA to San Diego was to visit one of my >> friends who lives there. >> >> I found the connectors during a junk scrounge with my friend. > >Well, I went from Bristol, UK to Dayton, Ohio (via Boston) >in order to visit a junk emporium and buy: > > NIXIE TUBES!!!! > >And I even got them back through the airport X-ray machines >without any questions... I bet you went to Mendelson's, my all-time favorite "Emporium of the Electronic Junque". I get lost for hours at a time in there whenever I visit. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net Fri Oct 8 09:55:40 1999 From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (FBA) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: SGI Hardware Developer Handbooks available Message-ID: <000801bf119d$3426d100$3c37d986@fauradon.beckman.com> Maybe you could offer them here first. Francois >Not only that, I have rare Amiga t-shirts - the first Amiga >wake party t-shirt, baseball caps, sweat shirts, NewTek shirts. >Sheesh. Off to the basement. > >- John > > From rdd at smarty.smart.net Fri Oct 8 09:57:10 1999 From: rdd at smarty.smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: Removing PSU from CDC 9766 drive Message-ID: <199910081457.KAA09951@smarty.smart.net> Since it appears no one can rescue the CDC 9766 drives, I've begun stripping some bits from one of them (removed one board set already) and am preparing to remove the PSU during lunch or my next break. Now then, as time may be in somewhat short supply, can anyone give kindly me any hints for the easiest way to do this? Noticing the screws in the side of the slide-out rack, I'm wondering if removing the two screws on each side will remove it. There also appears to be an air-hose (used to cool the PSU?) that will have to come off. Is there some way to eaasily just disconnect the sliding mechanism without removing the screws? It also looks as though there's some sort of braided wire (wires?) going into the PSU with no connector that can be disconencted... blast... the one thing I've misplaced was my wirecutters, which I, hopefully, won't need. Any other suggestions for removing any other easily removeable bits (heads, motor?)? How do I lift the lid on this drive to access the front panel switches to remove the switches and light-bulbs? (sorry for the unhackish question, but time's a bit short). -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com Be careful what you wish for --- you http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd may get your wish ...and it might not Tel: (410) 744-4900 be what you were expecting. From dogas at leading.net Fri Oct 8 10:16:09 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: A call for OSI docs/New toy In-Reply-To: <000a01bf10d3$3284c890$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: The Challenger iii saga continues... Yep, one of the 470's does indeed have a line of pins where a daughter card might have plugged in. Will the 510's rom let me go without a daughter&disk attached? If not, is a new one buildable? > (2x) OSI 470 (maybe parallel/disk interfaces??? one of them has what looks > like a centronics cable attached), and a "motherboard", ps, and case. OSI 470 -- Believe it or not, can be configured to do either parallel or floppy and a few other "network-like" things as well. Note that in any case, most of the board is unpopulated. If it is being used as a floppy controller, there should be a small "daughter" card hanging off of it and the cable to the floppy drive will come from that card (can't remember the OSI number for that card). The floppy may have been disconnected by removing this card, in which case there will just be a row of pins sticking out. I don't have those schematics here at work right now. I'll try to remember to bring them in tomorrow to give you more details. > (2) note if anything/cards are obviously missing, Assuming the serial port on the 510 is populated and enabled, then you should have a complete system with the addition of a terminal, floppy drive and system (OS-65D). If not, then you would need to add an early rev (pre-B) 540 board to give you video, keyboard and cassette. You would also need an OSI 542 keyboard. The ROMs on the 510 will be programmed to expect a certain configuration, so if the serial port is not there, filling it in will not help. The 510 is wired out to a 5-pin female din mounted on the back of the OSI's case. Tell me this is its serial port, and also tell me the pin outs. ;) And... any idea how many of these were sold? This one seems to have a pretty low serial number... Thanks - Mike From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Fri Oct 8 10:22:47 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: DEC Module Edge Connectors In-Reply-To: <199910080316.DAA08900@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991008082247.03016574@ferrari.sfu.ca> Hi Lawrence: At 03:16 AM 99/10/08 GMT, you wrote: >Sure, if you can dig up teh name of the place that had those wierd connectors >for the PDP8/e, i would be interested in seeing if i could still >obtain some. The place is: Gateway Electronics Inc. 9222 Chesapeake Drive, San Diego, California 92123 (619) 279-6802; Fax (619) 279-7294 They were $2 each. You want 36 pin double sided 0.125" spacing card edge connectors. These are, of course, two rows of 18 pins each. Good luck, Kevin --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From jpl15 at netcom.com Fri Oct 8 10:40:02 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: Removing PSU from CDC 9766 drive In-Reply-To: <199910081457.KAA09951@smarty.smart.net> Message-ID: Having just shipped on of these beasts to a Friend in Another Countery(tm)... perhaps I can help a bit. First, it's a shame that it has to be parted out, but in truth, there a lot of 9766s about, and they're big and heavy.. 700lb. and 220V, and delicate, and the media is expensive... oh well... still no excuse not to love them. The front cover lifts from the back and pivots up at the front panel on gas shocks. The side panels can then be removed by lifting up on the two metal square handles on either side. Pull them up and the sides will fall away, usually onto your foot. :) The electronica door in the back can be removed by pulling the lower hinge-pin up using the little metal bar atteched to it for this purpose. Cut or unscrew the bondong wire. Same for the front door, and the side panels. The PSU slides out on regular chassis tracks, which have a clip release at the end of the extended travel. Remove all the wiring first, then extend the PSU until it stops, then find and depress the tabs on the outside middle of the slide tracks and withdraw the PSU... and watch it... it's close to a 100lbs, tho it doesn't look like it. (If the 'braid' you mention is flat and silver, it's a ground bonding conductor... unscrew it or cut it. If no other tools, you can just work it back and forth at one of the connectors untill it frays and breaks. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. Take off the top inside cover and try and get the heads out... I have never removed them, but apparently they can be gotten quite easily. Also the head-amp card cage and associated wiring. If you're really ambitions you could remove the HEPA filter and the disk spindle assembly... the rest of it's scrap at this point. snif,,snifff.. :( Hope this helps a little. Cheers John From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Fri Oct 8 10:58:23 1999 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: Mendelson's (was: DEC Edge Connectors) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991008101602.00abe720@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: > >Well, I went from Bristol, UK to Dayton, Ohio (via Boston) > >in order to visit a junk emporium and buy: > > > > NIXIE TUBES!!!! > > > >And I even got them back through the airport X-ray machines > >without any questions... > > I bet you went to Mendelson's, my all-time favorite "Emporium of the > Electronic Junque". I get lost for hours at a time in there whenever I visit. > > Regards, Chris > -- -- > Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Yes, I admit it, I went to Mendelson's! Absolutely huge warehouse full of weird electronic/mechanical/pneumatic parts, located in Dayton, Ohio. Their home page: http://www.meci.com I wish I could have carried back one of the IBM PS/2 Model 25s that I saw -- IBM never "announced" the Model 25 in the UK, so it's a real rarity here. I saw at least three IBM 029 card punches (also too big to carry home :), several very nice HP instruments and a whole room full of valves (vacuum tubes) along with a tube tester. Handy hint: when "airlifting" Nixies to a far-away place, pack them individually in old 35mm film containers. I brought six of them back quite safely (Burroughs 5092s). -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 8 11:02:10 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: SGI Hardware Developer Handbooks available References: <3.0.5.32.19991008084641.00efc5f0@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: <99100812111204.18267@vault.neurotica.com> On Fri, 08 Oct 1999, John Foust wrote: >> I paid just short of $200.00 for one on eBay about six months ago. I'm >glad >>it's paid for itself. > >At first I thought you were pulling my leg. Maybe you are. >Then I searched eBay. > >I didn't find any past auction like you described, but I did see They only keep the completed auction info around for 30 days. This was about six months ago. >dozens of other auctions selling the free CDs that SGI gave away >at trade shows, each fetching $10-50, and SGI polo shirts, and >other little trade show give-aways for $30. Insane. Off to the >back room to look for goodies to sell to the unwashed. Well I'm rather washed, thank you, and if you send me a cool SGI shirt, I'll send you a cool SkyCache (my employer) shirt. And we consistenly get "best t-shirt of show" awards. :) >T-shirts? I can sell computer show give-away t-shirts on eBay? >Gads, I've got boxes of unworn shirts in the basement, and I use >them like tissues when I'm working in the yard or the barn! Blasphemy! Wear your VendorWear with pride, man! Show the world (or just the grocery store or mall) that you're a true geek! ;) A good friend of mine spent a lot of time out on the west coast in the Valley area...A not-too-attractive gentleman, he's used to being blown off by women due to his looks. One day he goes out for a stroll wearing a USR X2 t-shirt and gets picked up. Twice. By two women which he described as "rather distracting". Of course I thought he was pulling my leg, but he has witnesses! Hey man, at least on the US West Coast, geeks are in demand! Now, I wonder, why is it that I live on the *east* coast... :-/ >Not only that, I have rare Amiga t-shirts - the first Amiga >wake party t-shirt, baseball caps, sweat shirts, NewTek shirts. >Sheesh. Off to the basement. You'll make a fortune. And I'll probably be the buyer on at least one of 'em. Sure, I go to InterOp and collect VendorWear from all the biggies...but there are some that I'll never see at the shows I go to, some that are cool that I want! :-) -Dave McGuire From rdd at smarty.smart.net Fri Oct 8 11:18:07 1999 From: rdd at smarty.smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: Removing PSU from CDC 9766 drive In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at Oct 8, 99 08:40:02 am Message-ID: <199910081618.MAA22336@smarty.smart.net> Quothe John Lawson: > Having just shipped on of these beasts to a Friend in Another > Countery(tm)... perhaps I can help a bit. > > First, it's a shame that it has to be parted out, but in truth, > there a lot of 9766s about, and they're big and heavy.. 700lb. and > 220V, and delicate, and the media is expensive... oh well... still > no excuse not to love them. Alas, I thought I could at least part them out, now I'm told that I can only remove small bits like the boards, but not take them away yet unless the scrap dealer doesn't want them (or will sell them). Like the Autologic system, these have to go out the door in one piece, so I have to wait to talk with the scrap dealer to see what I can take away... hopefully I can get the PSUs from these. :-( Thanks for the information; I'll save it for future reference. It's so much more pleasant to put things together and see them working, and preserved, than to have to take things apart knowing that they'll not be reassembled to form a working system or peripheral again. I hate to see anything scrapped, it's such a terrible waste. New computer systems are just boring compared older systems and the sounds of such things as a 14" disk drive spinning up, etc. If I'd started working with computers today, instead of with systems that required a room with special power and air-conditioning, I'd probably not have become as interested in computers. > The front cover lifts from the back and pivots up at the front > panel on gas shocks. The side panels can then be removed by lifting > up on the two metal square handles on either side. Pull them up and > the sides will fall away, usually onto your foot. :) Ouch! That little problem called gravity at work ...at least it's not like the side of a full-height rack dropping or a horse stepping one's foot and then standing there staring at one, not wanting to move; it will painless comparted to that. :-) > The electronica door in the back can be removed by pulling the > lower hinge-pin up using the little metal bar atteched to it for Got the boards out. I think I see some not-too-easy to find chips I can use for for my 11/44 with an intermittent CPU problem. > The PSU slides out on regular chassis tracks, which have a clip > release at the end of the extended travel. Remove all the wiring > first, then extend the PSU until it stops, then find and depress the > tabs on the outside middle of the slide tracks and withdraw the > PSU... and watch it... it's close to a 100lbs, tho it doesn't look Wow! It looked somewhat heavy, but I didn't realize it was that heavy. Before being told I couldn't take the drives apart any further, I was all set to carry all four of these from the front hallway back to my office (one at a time, of course). > like it. (If the 'braid' you mention is flat and silver, it's a > ground bonding conductor... unscrew it or cut it. If no other > tools, you can just work it back and forth at one of the connectors > untill it frays and breaks. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. Me too. Used key's to saw through things, etc. :-) It looked like a thickish copper braid. > If you're really ambitions you could remove the HEPA filter and > the disk spindle assembly... the rest of it's scrap at this point. Already got three HEPA filters, and a few springs before being told to stop; they're sitting here next to my chair. > snif,,snifff.. :( :-( Why to I get the feeling that some funeral march music should be playing? Do I hear pipes and drums off in the distance? > Hope this helps a little. Yes, thanks. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com Be careful what you wish for --- you http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd may get your wish ...and it might not Tel: (410) 744-4900 be what you were expecting. From bill at chipware.com Fri Oct 8 11:23:17 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:46 2005 Subject: A call for OSI docs/New toy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001301bf11a9$6d8b3c90$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > The Challenger iii saga continues... > > Yep, one of the 470's does indeed have a line of pins where a > daughter card > might have plugged in. Will the 510's rom let me go without a > daughter&disk > attached? If not, is a new one buildable? Should be fairly easy to find. I may have a spare, but you would have to trade me something good... It could also be built. The 510 ROMs are just the bootstrap and a very crude monitor. It should come up with some variant on the classic: D/C/W/M? prompt, you may have to hit the reset button a few times. Most probably, it will prompt: H/D/M? Press 'M'. Note! The 'M' must be UPPER CASE or the machine will ignore you. This will take you into the monitor. Once again, I don't have the reference I need, try different upper case letters followed by four digit hex addresses. PXXXX if I remember correctly will dump memory starting at address XXXX. If you get this far, the machine is in pretty good shape. > The 510 is wired out to a 5-pin female din mounted on the back of > the OSI's > case. Tell me this is its serial port, and also tell me the pin outs. ;) Well, let's see where it is attached. There should be a 4pin and a 12pin molex connector on the top of the card, next to the corner, away from the bus. The 4 pin connector is the manual processor select, nothing should be attached there. The 12pin connector is where the serial port and reset switch should be attached. Pinouts: (Pin 1 is away from the bus) 1 -- NC 2 -- Ground (for use with reset) 3 -- Reset 4 -- NC 5 -- NC 6 -- Ground 7 -- RS-232 OUT 8 -- RS-232 IN 9 -- 20mA OUT current (probably not populated) 10 -- 20mA IN current (probably not populated) 11 -- AUX OUT (probably not populated) 12 -- -9 volts through a 470ohm resistor (probably not populated) If it is set up for 20mA current loop, then I'm not sure I can help you. My schematics don't seem to be complete for those mods. The port was factory wired for 2400 baud, no parity, 8 data bits, 2 stop bits. Only thing likely to change is the baud. Possible values are: 75, 110, 150, 300, 600, 1200, 2400, 4800, 9600 and 19.2K. If it has been changed, there will be pins soldered to the board, below the connector and the 6850 USART beneith it. Two or three of the pins will be wire-wrapped together, connecting the Rx an Tx clock inputs to a clock source. It is possible, although I can't imagine why, that the Tx and Rx clocks could be set to different rates, in which case two pairs of two pins will be connected. > And... any idea how many of these were sold? This one seems to have a > pretty low serial number... Not a clue. If it has a metal serial number plate then it is much newer (post-1978?) than if it has a paper serial number sticker. From jpl15 at netcom.com Fri Oct 8 11:43:45 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: Removing PSU from CDC 9766 drive In-Reply-To: <199910081618.MAA22336@smarty.smart.net> Message-ID: Last Thought: Find out where the scap dealer is taking the drives, and make a deal with him to remove the stuff you want (for a fair price)... then you have the leisure to work on them and you can get the best use from the Old Beasts... Cheers and Good Luck! John From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Oct 8 11:38:13 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: Site update and Compaq 486 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19991007100911.512ffb86@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <012f01bf1063$684c49a0$02d2fea9@gaz> <199910061642.MAA08440@smarty.smart.net> Message-ID: > I have a Compaq 486/33 with 16Mb that was given to me. Here in the US >they're not worth anything. People are throwing them away. Any, and I mean any working computer is worth something, the trouble comes in when you add the cost of locating a person that wants it, and the cost of getting it to them, that it may not be profitable. 20 is a fair price, dollars or pounds. From donm at cts.com Fri Oct 8 13:21:30 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: DEC Module Edge Connectors In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19991008082247.03016574@ferrari.sfu.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Oct 1999, Kevin McQuiggin wrote: > Hi Lawrence: > > At 03:16 AM 99/10/08 GMT, you wrote: > >Sure, if you can dig up teh name of the place that had those wierd connectors > >for the PDP8/e, i would be interested in seeing if i could still > >obtain some. > > The place is: > > Gateway Electronics Inc. > 9222 Chesapeake Drive, > San Diego, California 92123 > (619) 279-6802; Fax (619) 279-7294 It might be worth noting that Gateway has more than one location. In addition to the San Diego store, they are also in: 8123 Page Blvd St. Louis MO 63130 314-427-6116 2525 Federal Blvd Denver CO 80211 303-458-5444 Mail orders: 1-800-669-5810 Fax orders: 314-427-3147 //www.gatewayelex.com/ - don > They were $2 each. You want 36 pin double sided 0.125" spacing card edge > connectors. These are, of course, two rows of 18 pins each. > > Good luck, > > Kevin > > > --- > Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD > mcquiggi@sfu.ca > From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Fri Oct 8 13:36:08 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: Removing PSU from CDC 9766 drive In-Reply-To: from John Lawson at "Oct 8, 1999 8:40: 2 am" Message-ID: <199910081836.OAA11532@pechter.dyndns.org> > > The PSU slides out on regular chassis tracks, which have a clip > release at the end of the extended travel. Remove all the wiring > first, then extend the PSU until it stops, then find and depress the > tabs on the outside middle of the slide tracks and withdraw the > PSU... and watch it... it's close to a 100lbs, tho it doesn't look > like it. (If the 'braid' you mention is flat and silver, it's a > ground bonding conductor... unscrew it or cut it. If no other > tools, you can just work it back and forth at one of the connectors > untill it frays and breaks. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. > > > Hope this helps a little. > > Cheers > > John There's two varients of Power Supply -- VDE and NON-VDE. I believe the VDE is just screwed in without the chasis tracks. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Fri Oct 8 13:40:55 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: Pinout needed Message-ID: Does anyone happen to have the pinout for the Atari 825 printer handy? It's the edge connector... Cheers, Aaron From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 8 12:43:20 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: Running a 220v computer in a 110v environment In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991007225530.00aa15f0@206.231.8.2> from "Christian Fandt" at Oct 7, 99 11:07:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2996 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991008/09bb418f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 8 12:48:03 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: DEC Edge Connectors In-Reply-To: from "John Honniball" at Oct 8, 99 11:26:25 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 357 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991008/647b1335/attachment.ksh From daniel at internet.look.ca Fri Oct 8 14:17:15 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: TS03 tape drive and FLIP CHIP interface Message-ID: <000401bf11c1$bd860320$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> I have a TS)3 and a long 19" dual width interface backplane filled with flip chip modules. I know nothing about it other than I got it 10 years ago in mint condition. #1) Is it Unibus or Omnibus or ???? #2) Any idea how to hook it up.. (there are a few slots free at the end of the plane obviously for cables). Any help would be appreciated as I have been waiting for docs for the last 10 years. From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri Oct 8 14:27:07 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: RH10 and DF10 docs needed... Message-ID: <13489880563.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Does anyone here have docs for either the RH10 Massbus interface, or the DF10 data channel? I'm trying to wing it from the ITS/TOPS-10 source, and it's being more confusing than anything. Scanned docs would be really nice ^_^ ------- From Innfogra at aol.com Fri Oct 8 15:17:54 1999 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: ENIAC Message-ID: <0.ee996758.252fab72@aol.com> Right now in Oregon, USA OPBS is broadcasting a program called Technation on ENIAC. 91.5 FM 550 AM Oregon Look for it in your own area. Paxton From charlesII at nwonline.net Fri Oct 8 15:14:17 1999 From: charlesII at nwonline.net (Charles Oblender) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: Have any info? Message-ID: <37FE5098.E4E130D3@nwonline.net> Attached is a zip compressed file of photos of the machine in question in *.pdf format. Any info will be appreciated. Charles -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ncrpics.zip Type: application/x-zip-compressed Size: 227118 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991008/c2fd70a0/ncrpics.bin From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Oct 8 17:21:48 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: SGI Hardware Developer Handbooks available In-Reply-To: John Foust "Re: SGI Hardware Developer Handbooks available" (Oct 8, 8:46) References: <3.0.5.32.19991007203601.0122ab10@vpwisfirewall> <3.0.5.32.19991008084641.00efc5f0@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: <9910082321.ZM2369@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 8, 8:46, John Foust wrote: > > I paid just short of $200.00 for one on eBay about six months ago. I'm > glad > >it's paid for itself. > > At first I thought you were pulling my leg. Maybe you are. > Then I searched eBay. Well, maybe my reaction was a little OTT, but some of these things are fairly hard to come by. I'd like the Hardware Handbook for it's content, but I know others collect things like CDs and T-shirts for other reasons. Most such things arn't all that hard to find, though, unless you're looking for a particular item to complete a "set". I guess now Acorn Copmputers has been broken up, I could sell all those teddy bears and sweatshirts to pay for things I really want:-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Oct 8 18:31:50 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: Have any info? Message-ID: <199910082331.TAA20517@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Oct 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: > > > > **** LARGE SNIPPAGE... > > That was really an ill informed thing to do. I just got (likely the rest > of the list too) a 313kb file! Or better said you spammed the group. Not > all of us have the ability to view it or the patience to download it! > First I appreciate the willingness to try and help out and share data with The List... Info is Good: however I certainly second the sentiment... that an ASCII e-mail list is hardly the place for large chunks o' bytes. Please recall that we have members on this List who pay for access *by the minute*.... and some on 14.4 (or slower) modems. I had to just send it to dev/null, since I use Pine under a Unix shell account. [Think VT100] O well... Cheers John From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Oct 8 20:31:10 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: TS03 tape drive and FLIP CHIP interface In-Reply-To: <000401bf11c1$bd860320$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> Message-ID: <4.1.19991008212115.00b5d7a0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 03:17 PM 10/8/99 -0400, daniel said something like: >I have a TS)3 and a long 19" dual width interface backplane filled with flip >chip modules. I know nothing about it other than I got it 10 years ago in >mint condition. > >#1) Is it Unibus or Omnibus or ???? >#2) Any idea how to hook it up.. (there are a few slots free at the end of >the plane obviously for cables). > >Any help would be appreciated as I have been waiting for docs for the last >10 years. I've got a TS03 drive and BA11 box in a tall rack out in the garage which is promised to someone out West. I do have a manual for it and can make arrangements to have a copy made for copying costs and postage. Like most of the other stuff around this danged place, the docs are buried somewhere and have to be dredged up. We moved the rest of the radio + computer collection and library into the house this past Winter, Spring and Summer and I'm STILL trying to rearrange everything to my liking (as in making room just to move around to work in my shop, upstairs office and the 3rd floor where the library and radio and computer collection is.) Soon you folks will see a bunch of miscellaneous computer-related stuff posted here that I need to get shed of. Just gotta get the excess stuff organized first. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From Hermz1 at earthlink.net Fri Oct 8 20:58:38 1999 From: Hermz1 at earthlink.net (Hermz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: removal In-Reply-To: <199910081457.KAA09951@smarty.smart.net> Message-ID: I would love to stay on the list, but I just don't have enough time, think anyone could tell me how to unsubscribe? Thanks alot buh bye! Hermz ^^^^^^^ Is da man! From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Fri Oct 8 21:05:59 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: Have any info? In-Reply-To: <37FE5098.E4E130D3@nwonline.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991008190559.00974790@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 16:14 08-10-1999 -0400, you wrote: >Attached is a zip compressed file of photos of the machine in question >in *.pdf format. Any info will be appreciated. Ok... first things first. Please do NOT post file attachments to the mailing list! This forces every single one of its subscribers to download it whether or not they can be of assistance. The appropriate way to handle something like that is to post a note to the list explaining what you have, and that you have image files available to aid in identification. Once someone contacts you, and OK's the attachment, send it ONLY TO THAT PERSON! Now, with that out of the way... what you have is a 3470 series tower. I recall that it has proprietary innards. You should be able to get all the info on it you can handle from NCR Support. The phone numbers will be listed on: http://www3.ncr.com/support/nt/ncrphone.htm Best of luck. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From marvin at rain.org Fri Oct 8 21:20:31 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: Trash 80 on ebay References: <990920120907.22e00145@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <37FEA66F.B91B7DC@rain.org> Just my perverted sense of humor here. The ad reads that this machine runs just like it did in 1974. I gather it doesn't run at all since that machine didn't come out until a bit later :). From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 8 21:57:59 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: PDP-11 DOS/BATCH Question Message-ID: Much to my surprise I was contacted by someone still maintaining several PDP-11/55's running DOS/BATCH. Yes, I know I shouldn't have been surprised, just never heard of anyone actually running it. Anyway, does anyone know of a way, or have a program to transfer data between the PDP-11 and a laptop? I'm not aware of a DOS/BATCH version of Kermit, which was my first thought. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Fri Oct 8 22:35:35 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: removal In-Reply-To: from "Hermz" at Oct 8, 99 08:58:38 pm Message-ID: <199910090335.UAA11189@saul9.u.washington.edu> > I would love to stay on the list, but I just don't have enough time, think > anyone could tell me how to unsubscribe? Thanks alot buh bye! Sorry to hear you're busy. The list has a way of sucking up time. Send a message to listproc@u.washington.edu In the body of the messgae, write unsubscribe classiccmp Make sure the account you use to send the message is the same one where your CLASSICCMP mail normally gets delivered. There is no way to use another account -- sorry. -- Derek From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Oct 8 23:59:17 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: OMTI 25011 programmers docs? Message-ID: <19991009045917.28270.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> For those who have not heard of this particular recent project, I'm trying to disassemble the 2K controller ROM in a Commodore D9060 IEEE-4888 hard disk. Inside the box are a C= board with two 6502s, shared RAM, an IEEE interface and a SASI interface. The drive mechanism is a Tandon TM602S (5Mb, D9060) or TM603S (7.5M, D9090). In between is an OMTI 25011 SASI host adapter. I'm attempting to understand the ROMs enough to either change the drive geometry to something like an ST-225 (since they are so plentiful) or to complete the code on the "DOS board", as it's called, to issue SCSI-1 commands and drive an old 40Mb-200Mb drive at the limit of the Commodore DOS 3.0 physical size (~16Mb, IIRC). To that end, an understanding of the OMTI would be essential. Does anyone out there have docs? I have (badly blurred) copies of the schematics, but no software info. I particularly need to know reads, writes, sense packets and formatting packets as the OMTI implements them. Most important is to learn how reduced write current and write precomp cylinders are set. If it's a command, then that's easy to change. If the OMTI makes assumptions, then it's not so easy. I now know where in the code the drive geometry is set; I just don't know how to affect RWC and precomp, even if I do patch the number of heads and cylinders. Thanks, -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From dastar at ncal.verio.com Sat Oct 9 01:23:09 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: Pictures from VCF 3.0 Message-ID: Some pictures from VCF 3.0.\ http://members.xoom.com/icwhen/shows/vcf/1999/ Official VCF pictures will be posted to the VCF website wthin a week or so. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. VCF East? VCF Europe!? YOU BETCHA!! Stay tuned for more information or contact me to find out how you can participate http://www.vintage.org From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Oct 9 08:15:21 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: PDP-11 DOS/BATCH Question Message-ID: <991009091521.20200657@trailing-edge.com> >Much to my surprise I was contacted by someone still maintaining several >PDP-11/55's running DOS/BATCH. Yes, I know I shouldn't have been >surprised, just never heard of anyone actually running it. Anyway, does >anyone know of a way, or have a program to transfer data between the PDP-11 >and a laptop? I'm not aware of a DOS/BATCH version of Kermit, which was my >first thought. Which way does the data have to flow? If from the -11 to the PC, and the data is all simple ASCII, you can just send it out the serial port without any flow control or error detection/correction. If it's anything more complicated, I just boot RT-11 and use FILEX (aka COPY/DOS) to move information back and forth to the DOS-11 packs/tapes, then I use Kermit-RT or TCP/IP on the RT-11 system for data transfer. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From mtapley at swri.edu Sat Oct 9 13:02:58 1999 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: "Solderpooling" (was Re: Running a 220v computer in a 110v environment) In-Reply-To: <199910090702.AAA10776@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Tony Duell wrote: > But I am >suggesting that _everyone_ here is intellegent enough to understand a >book on electrical wiring and then to do such wiring themselves. As a recent perpetrator of some particularly egregious stupidity (everyone *did* get their resistor color-codes straightened out after that, right?) I can claim that intelligence and the advisability of any single isolated act may not necessarily be corellated. (I can hope, anyway.) I therefore have a minor suggestion to make here. Call it "Solderpooling". Anyone intent on reworking mains power, moving full-height racks, or otherwise dealing with lethal quantities of energy, at least for the first time, put out an announcement and invitation here. If there is another local list member, arrange a visit for the duration of the risky part. We tend to do this for moving big stuff anyway, but I'm proposing it also for rewiring houses, repairing monitors, gluing with sodium cyanide (!), etc. Two pairs of eyes looking at the same procedure are much more likely to catch errors than one, even if neither is a "trained professional" (or proficient amateur). Add to that the psychological desire to do things properly in front of a visitor vs. taking short-cuts by one's self and the liklihood of mistakes might really go down. There's also the pleasant prospect of a shared victory if whatever it is works and the unpleasant but comforting availability of someone to do CPR if it *really* doesn't work. - Mark From mid at auk.cx Sat Oct 9 14:01:05 1999 From: mid at auk.cx (Adam Fritzler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: ISA expansion boards/cases Message-ID: Is there a good place to find boards that plug into a 16bit ISA slot and let you have another 8 or so slots? (without building your own) I would think there'd be a fair number of these floating around now that ISA is nearly dead in the mainstream, but aparently not. The cheapest I saw one new for $496. Bit ridiculous, imho. All I need is both end-boards (host end and backplane end) and a backplane. (I certainly don't need anymore cases...) Can anyone help? af --- Adam Fritzler { mid@auk.cx, afritz@iname.com} http://www.auk.cx/~mid/ "Something in my systray is blinking wildly." -- DS From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Sat Oct 9 13:15:19 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: "Solderpooling" (was Re: Running a 220v computer in a 110v In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13490129637.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Availability of someone to do CPR...] Or at least call 911 while you're swearing a blue streak at halving let that cabinet crush your legs after it fell down the stairs... Either way, when doing dangerous stuff, it's ALWAYS useful to have someone around. Even if they have no technical knowledge, anyone can dial 911. Minor as that is, it's much better than screaming your lungs out from the basement when you broke an arm, or bleeding/burning/frying to death with nobody around. ------- From dogas at leading.net Sat Oct 9 14:01:30 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: What's the best RS-232 terminal? Message-ID: <01bf1288$b25aa380$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> Anybody have a favorite? Why? - Mike: dogas@leading.net From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Sat Oct 9 14:11:50 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: What's the best RS-232 terminal? In-Reply-To: <01bf1288$b25aa380$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> Message-ID: For general use...a Wyse 60. Why? It only cost me a few dollars. It's *light*, so I can drag it around everywhere. It's highly configurable - on-screen programming. It has a printer port to dump the screen to hardcopy. Cheers, Aaron On Sat, 9 Oct 1999, Mike wrote: > Anybody have a favorite? Why? > > - Mike: dogas@leading.net > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Oct 9 14:37:59 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: ISA expansion boards/cases Message-ID: <001d01bf128d$cbcf1c60$0400c0a8@winbook> The backplanes having more than 8 ISA slots tended to work badly, as a function of how full and how long they were. Notable exceptions are/were the 12-slot passive backplanes sold by at least one manufacturer, which managed to operate quite well. The key is that these were not on a motherboard and thereby allowed, among other things, placement of the main CPU close to the center of the backplane while the remaining cards were installed working inward from the ends. These things have always been ridiculously expensive due to the low volumes in which they're produced. There were a few expansion boxes built with a cable having a bus interface at each end, capable of converting the differential signals on the cable betwen them back to single-ended TTL levels. These didn't ever work particularly well, i.e. were very fussy about what was in the expansion chassis, as the bus timing was altered by the cable delays. I wouldn't expect such an item to be low-priced, though, just because of its relative rarity. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Adam Fritzler To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, October 09, 1999 12:07 PM Subject: ISA expansion boards/cases > >Is there a good place to find boards that plug into a 16bit ISA slot and >let you have another 8 or so slots? (without building your own) > >I would think there'd be a fair number of these floating around now that >ISA is nearly dead in the mainstream, but aparently not. The >cheapest I saw one new for $496. Bit ridiculous, imho. > >All I need is both end-boards (host end and backplane end) and a >backplane. (I certainly don't need anymore cases...) > >Can anyone help? > >af > >--- > Adam Fritzler > { mid@auk.cx, afritz@iname.com} > http://www.auk.cx/~mid/ > "Something in my systray is blinking wildly." -- DS > From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Oct 9 15:46:11 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: The Day's Finds Message-ID: Today was a good day, as it was the Fall CP/M Users Group Swap Meet. I managed to get a PDP-11/23+ in a nice BA23 chassis, though not sure that counts since I'd arranged to pick the system up there, as I don't have a lot of time at the moment. He wanted to keep the 1Mb RAM board, which wasn't a big deal for me, especially as it still has 2 128k RAM boards. More importantly it's got the RL02 controller I needed. I stocked up on small SCSI Hard drives, I'm no longer worried about not having enough drives in the 100-200MB range :^) Got a HP LaserJet ethernet card, but it turns out I got my model mixed up with another :^( BUT the find of the day was the AIM 65, still in the original box and packing material with what I assume is all the paperwork/papers. The only downside is the plastic over the LED display is cracked. It's got the printer on the board, and a roll of paper even. Now I just need to find out what an AIM 65 is! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From a2k at one.net Sat Oct 9 16:59:02 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: What's the best RS-232 terminal? In-Reply-To: <01bf1288$b25aa380$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Oct 1999, Mike wrote: > Anybody have a favorite? Why? > > - Mike: dogas@leading.net > I hate to say "best," but I really like my WYSE WY-99GT... will do VT-100 and VT-52 and ANSI... I think it does a few others but I'm not sure. It has "WYSE Works" built in-- Function-CAPS I think. It has a calandar, calculator, and character map. Setup is very easy (full screen menus)... and I really like the keyboard! Kevin From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Oct 9 17:35:25 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: What's the best RS-232 terminal? In-Reply-To: <01bf1288$b25aa380$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> Message-ID: >Anybody have a favorite? Why? > >- Mike: dogas@leading.net Without a doubt, a DEC VT420 that accepts two inputs! They look nice, have good screens, a nice keyboard, and the dual inputs let you use it for two computers, or two different connections to the same system. You can also attach something like a DEC LA75 printer to on of the inputs and get printouts! The VT420/LA75 combo is perfect, and I use it on my PDP-11/73. I've got another pair that will probably end up on either my MicroVAX 3 or PDP-11/44. I also use 420's on Sparc's and Alpha's. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rdd at smarty.smart.net Sat Oct 9 17:40:58 1999 From: rdd at smarty.smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: What's the best RS-232 terminal? In-Reply-To: from "Aaron Christopher Finney" at Oct 9, 99 12:11:50 pm Message-ID: <199910092241.SAA00954@smarty.smart.net> On Sat, 9 Oct 1999, Mike wrote: > Anybody have a favorite? Why? A Decwriter III. It allows one to keep a log of console messages that don't go away when a system crashes. As to terminals with CRTs, the HP2382A is nice and compact, the text is clear and easy on the eyes. It needs frequent cleaning due to the fan sucking in dust, however, and the keys stick at times. If it gets too dusty, it stops working (the text on the screen becomes tiny and then won't appear at all). No VT-100 emulation, alas, but works great with UNIX systems. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com Be careful what you wish for --- you http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd may get your wish ...and it might not Tel: (410) 744-4900 be what you were expecting. From rdd at smarty.smart.net Sat Oct 9 18:56:06 1999 From: rdd at smarty.smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: Seagate ST41200N and ST4766N Message-ID: <199910092356.TAA07509@smarty.smart.net> Greetings, While trying to make my Sun 4/110 bootable again, I ran into a slight problem with Seagate's web page: their documentation for older drives, such as the jumper info., is somewhat undecipherable for someone using UNIX... perhaps it's readable by MS-DOS/Windows systems, not sure. Can anyone kindly tell me which jumpers on the ST4766N and ST41200N drives are which? I think both are identical as far as jumpering for SCSI ID, etc. goes. At one time, I had this info., but have misplaced it, and need to change SCSI IDs and also get the drive to spin up by itself with no delay. BTW, can anyone tell me what format their web page us using to display the info? Does Microsoft windows use some sort of unusual ASCII? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com Be careful what you wish for --- you http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd may get your wish ...and it might not Tel: (410) 744-4900 be what you were expecting. From ss at allegro.com Sat Oct 9 19:14:23 1999 From: ss at allegro.com (ss@allegro.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: Seagate ST41200N and ST4766N In-Reply-To: <199910092356.TAA07509@smarty.smart.net> Message-ID: <199910100014.RAA27840@bart.allegro.com> > Can anyone kindly tell me which jumpers on the ST4766N and ST41200N > drives are which? I think both are identical as far as jumpering for Read this with a fixed-width font: +-- Some 16-pin configurations may not have these pins. | | +-----------------------------+ /-4-3-2-1-\ -----P-W-A-----+--+:::SCSI:Cable:::::::::::::::1+-+ 0 0 0 0 +-- +-+ | +-----------------------------+ +-5-G-G-12+ |o|o o o o o o(o)o +--------1+--------1+--------1 Power +o+o o o o o o(o)o +--------++--------++--------+ +-+ 4 2 1 M P | | Terminator Resistor SIPS | --+-- | | | | | | | | | +- Reserved | | | | +--- Motor Start Delay ( 16 sec * ID) | | | +----- Parity option enable | | +------- Motor Start option enable | +----------- Drive ID's, ID 0 (none) if only SCSI device +----------------+ Terminator power from Drive (vertical) + Terminator power from Bus (lower horizontal) From ss at allegro.com Sat Oct 9 19:17:21 1999 From: ss at allegro.com (ss@allegro.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: Seagate ST41200N and ST4766N In-Reply-To: <199910092356.TAA07509@smarty.smart.net> Message-ID: <199910100017.RAA29407@bart.allegro.com> Re: my earlier post. That was for the ST4766N. Subject: Seagate ST41200N and ST4766N Fixed width font: ST-41200N (94601-1200) Wren 7 SCSI and SCSI-2 +-- Some 16-pin configurations may not have these pins. | | +-----------------------------+ /-4-3-2-1-\ -----P-W-A-----+--+:::SCSI:Cable:::::::::::::::1+-+ 0 0 0 0 +-- +-+ | +-----------------------------+ +-5-G-G-12+ |o|o o o o o o(o)o +--------1+--------1+--------1 Power +o+o o o o o o(o)o +--------++--------++--------+ +-+ 4 2 1 M P | | Terminator Resistor SIPS | --+-- | | | | | | | | | +- Reserved | | | | +--- Motor Start Delay ( 16 sec * ID) | | | +----- Parity option enable | | +------- Motor Start option enable | +----------- Drive ID's, ID 0 (none) if only SCSI device +----------------+ Terminator power from Drive (vertical) + Terminator power from Bus (lower horizontal) ST-41200N 94601-12G/M WREN 7 FH UNFORMATTED CAPACITY (MB) ________________1.2G FORMATTED CAPACITY (xx SECTORS) (MB) _____1037 AVERAGE SECTORS PER TRACK ________________71 ACTUATOR TYPE ____________________________VOICE COIL TRACKS ___________________________________28965 CYLINDERS ________________________________1931 HEADS ____________________________________15 DISCS ____________________________________8 MEDIA TYPE _______________________________THIN FILM RECORDING METHOD _________________________ZBR RLL (1,7) TRANSFER RATE (mbytes/sec) _______________1.875-2.875 SPINDLE SPEED (RPM) ______________________3,600 AVERAGE LATENCY (mSEC) ___________________8.33 BUFFER ___________________________________256 Kbyte SCSI-1: Read Look-Ahead, Non_Adaptive, Single-Segmented Buffer SCSI-2: Read Look-Ahead, Adaptive, Multi-Segmented Cache INTERFACE ________________________________SCSI-2 TPI (TRACKS PER INCH) ____________________1600 BPI (BITS PER INCH) ______________________32750 AVERAGE ACCESS (ms) ______________________15 SINGLE TRACK SEEK (ms) ___________________2.5 MAX FULL SEEK (ms) _______________________34 MTBF (power-on hours) ____________________150,000 POWER REQUIREMENTS: +12V START-UP (amps) _4.5 +12V TYPICAL (amps) __1.6 +5V START-UP (amps) __1.1 +5V TYPICAL (amps) ___0.8 TYPICAL (watts) ______24 MAXIMUM (watts) ______60 BUFFERED STEP PULSE RATE (micro sec) _____ WRITE PRECOMP (cyl) ______________________N/A REDUCED WRITE CURRENT (cyl) ______________N/A LANDING ZONE (cyl) _______________________AUTO PARK IBM AT DRIVE TYPE ________________________0 or NONE ZBR = Zone Bit Recording = Variable sectors per track Already low-level formatted at the factory. Seagate reserves the right to change, without notice, product offerings or specifications. (6/26/90) From lance at costanzo.net Sat Oct 9 19:20:41 1999 From: lance at costanzo.net (Lance Costanzo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: Seagate ST41200N and ST4766N Message-ID: <3.0.32.19991009172035.00b90994@costanzo.net> At 07:56 PM 10/09/1999 -0400, you wrote: >While trying to make my Sun 4/110 bootable again, I ran into a slight >problem with Seagate's web page: their documentation for older drives, >such as the jumper info., is somewhat undecipherable for someone using >UNIX... perhaps it's readable by MS-DOS/Windows systems, not sure. >Can anyone kindly tell me which jumpers on the ST4766N and ST41200N >drives are which? I think both are identical as far as jumpering for One of the best places to get drive info is http://www.thetechpage.com (formerly blue-planet.com) They just happen to have your drives listed! (Hey Stan - point the guy in the right direction and let him do the work!) Lance Costanzo http://www.webhighrise.com System Administrator Website and Virtual Domain Hosting lance@costanzo.net starting at $5/month, no setup fees From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 9 19:31:26 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: "Solderpooling" (was Re: Running a 220v computer in a 110v In-Reply-To: from "Mark Tapley" at Oct 9, 99 01:02:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1375 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991010/c0d29949/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 9 19:35:07 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: "Solderpooling" (was Re: Running a 220v computer in a 110v In-Reply-To: <13490129637.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Oct 9, 99 11:15:19 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 691 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991010/7794073a/attachment.ksh From rdd at smarty.smart.net Sat Oct 9 19:59:15 1999 From: rdd at smarty.smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: Seagate ST41200N and ST4766N In-Reply-To: <199910100017.RAA29407@bart.allegro.com> from "ss@allegro.com" at Oct 9, 99 05:17:21 pm Message-ID: <199910100059.UAA11993@smarty.smart.net> Thanks to all who've responded with info. about these drives! The strange thing is that www and dejanews searches used to turn up lots of information like what I was seeking, but I couldn't find it last night or today. Now I can go back to trying to make the system bootable again, or at least salvage some data from the drive with the boot partition on it, which the system at least recognized and booted from before I messed things up with running fsck manually, which I needed to to after accidentally moving a "shoebox" with a running drive in it, which wasn't fastened properly to the chasis due to an insufficient length of cable. At the next hamfest, I'm buying lots of ribbon cable, crimp-on connectors and things like that. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com Be careful what you wish for --- you http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd may get your wish ...and it might not Tel: (410) 744-4900 be what you were expecting. From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Sat Oct 9 20:03:15 1999 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: Fw: Another loaf of free stuff! Message-ID: <005401bf12bb$69656420$9fe993c3@proteus> Posting this on behalf of Matthew, please contact him directly if you're interested in any of this stuff. ----- Original Message ----- From: Matthew Saxby Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware Sent: Friday, October 08, 1999 11:08 PM Subject: Another loaf of free stuff! > Sorry, for those of us in the UK only. Just come and pick up from Slough, > Bucks, England. > > IBM AT > 6 CGA Cube type monitors for the AT > Plus, a load of RM 186 machines. > > > If they aren't collected by next Friday, then they will go in the skip... > So, > someone please take them. > > > --- > Matthew TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Oct 9 20:34:03 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: What's the best RS-232 terminal? Message-ID: <199910100134.VAA21433@world.std.com> Greetings, Is anyone here familiar with modifying an IBM 4701-1 to do anything useful other than its intended purpose of connecting bank terminals to a mainframe? Given that it has a floppy drive (8"), memory and a CPU, and has the capability to load some sort of software, there must be some use for it, such as a dedicated controller of some sort. It came with some small Apricot displays but no keyboards. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com Be careful what you wish for --- you http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd may get your wish ...and it might not Tel: (410) 744-4900 be what you were expecting. From rdd at smarty.smart.net Sat Oct 9 21:45:47 1999 From: rdd at smarty.smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: Getting a Sun 4/110 to boot Message-ID: <199910100245.WAA20936@smarty.smart.net> Greetings, After changing removing a jumper on my Sun 4/110's boot drive *running Solaris 2.4)so that it spins up with no motor control, I still can't get the system to boot from the CD-ROM as I did in the past when I originally installed the OS. I've disconnected all other hard drives and tape drives, so it's just the one hard drive and CD-ROM. The hard drive is SCSI ID 0, with terminating resistors, no parity, as it was before. The CD-ROM is SCSI ID 6, no parity (Toshiba XM-4101B). The hard drive was bootable, although it had lots of errors reported by fsck; when I ran fsck manually, I made a mistake that resulted in "device not found" when attempting to boot the system. Simple to fix, I thought... just reinstall the OS from CD-ROM as an "upgrade," thus preserving data on the drive (am I right about this part?). When I attempted to boot from the CD-ROM, b sd(0,6,n) and b sd(0,31,n) where I tried 0, 1 and 2 for n, the system tries to access the hard drive, as I can hear it trying to do so, in addition to the CD-ROM making a noise. Then, the following error message appears: sd: sense key=5 error=25, block 0 [repeated over and over, then:] Waiting for disk to spin up {and tells me to start it if necessary] Please start it, if necessary, -OR- press any key to quit sd: sense key=5 error=25, block 0 [keeps being repeated] Does anyone have any idea or suggestions? The next thing I'm going to try is to install another hard drive and try to install Solaris on it, but it seems to me that if I could boot from the present drive before the fsck mess, I should still be able to boot from the CD-ROM with that installed. Is there something I'm overlooking? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com Be careful what you wish for --- you http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd may get your wish ...and it might not Tel: (410) 744-4900 be what you were expecting. From sms at antinode.org Sat Oct 9 22:01:07 1999 From: sms at antinode.org (sms@antinode.org) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: Seagate ST41200N and ST4766N Message-ID: <99100922010749@antinode.org> From: "R. D. Davis" > ... slight problem with Seagate's web page: their documentation for > older drives, such as the jumper info., is somewhat undecipherable for > someone using UNIX... When you get to a page like "http://www.seagate.com/support/disc/specs/st41200n.shtml", try following the link which says "A version of this specification with the linedraw characters approximated by text is available by clicking here." It takes you to a page like "http://www.seagate.com/cgi-bin/view.cgi?/scsi/st41200n.txt", which looks fine on my Netscape Navigator 3.03. Of course I'm running VMS, not UNIX, but I suspect that that matters little. For example: ST-41200N (94601-1200) Wren 7 SCSI and SCSI-2 +-- Some 16-pin configurations may not have these pins. | | +-----------------------------+ /-4-3-2-1-\ -----P-W-A-----+--+:::SCSI:Cable:::::::::::::::1+-+ 0 0 0 0 +-- +-+ | +-----------------------------+ +-5-G-G-12+ |o|o o o o o o(o)o +--------1+--------1+--------1 Power +o+o o o o o o(o)o +--------++--------++--------+ +-+ 4 2 1 M P | | Terminator Resistor SIPS | --+-- | | | | | | | | | +- Reserved | | | | +--- Motor Start Delay ( 16 sec * ID) | | | +----- Parity option enable | | +------- Motor Start option enable | +----------- Drive ID's, ID 0 (none) if only SCSI device +----------------+ Terminator power from Drive (vertical) + Terminator power from Bus (lower horizontal) ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda (+1) 651-645-9249 (voice, home) 1630 Marshall Avenue #8 (+1) 612-754-2636 (voice, work) Saint Paul MN 55104-6225 (+1) 612-754-6302 (facsimile, work) sms@antinode.org sms@provis.com (work) From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 10 00:34:54 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: ISA expansion boards/cases In-Reply-To: (message from Adam Fritzler on Sat, 9 Oct 1999 19:01:05 +0000 (UTC)) References: Message-ID: <19991010053454.26982.qmail@brouhaha.com> Adam asks: > Is there a good place to find boards that plug into a 16bit ISA slot and > let you have another 8 or so slots? (without building your own) I wouldn't bother. They don't work reliably. There are two types: 1) Unbuffered. These don't work because well-designed ISA cards barely have enough drive for 8 slots, and cheap crap (including some common brand-name stuff) only has enough drive for 2-3 slots. Even with the well-design stuff, once you figure in the added capcitance of a cable and another backplane, it won't work reliably even if you're just trying to expand a modern motherboard with only 1-3 ISA slots. 2) Buffered. These have all sorts of limitations regarding bus mastering cards. Even if you don't need bus mastering, they introduce enough delay into some of the critical ISA signals that many cards won't work properly. The signals that a card has to assert to indicate to the motherboard whether it is 8 or 16 bit, and whether it needs wait states, are very time critical. It's been over five years since I looked into these, and I doubt that there are any better solutions now than there were back then. If there were any good solutions, I guarantee that they would cost a lot more than $500. The fundamental problem is that ISA is a crappy excuse for a bus. It's very poorly designed; IBM just brought out the processor signals to the connector in the PC and XT, and kludged more crap on for the AT. On the other hand, PCI is actually a pretty well-designed bus, and it is quite possible to build an expansion box for it. Bit 3 (apparently now a subsidiary of SBS) makes some nice boxes. But I think they sell for around $1000. What exactly do you need to interface to the ISA bus? From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 10 00:38:22 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: The Day's Finds In-Reply-To: (healyzh@aracnet.com) References: Message-ID: <19991010053822.27014.qmail@brouhaha.com> > I managed to get a PDP-11/23+ in a nice BA23 chassis, though not sure that Not to put to fine a point on it, but is there really such a thing as a "nice BA23"? > BUT the find of the day was the AIM 65, still in the original box and ... > Now I just need to find out what an AIM 65 is! Definitely a nice find. (Envy, envy!) I think Rich Cini has some docs on his site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/index.html Good luck with it! From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 10 00:45:16 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:47 2005 Subject: What's the best RS-232 terminal? In-Reply-To: <01bf1288$b25aa380$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> (dogas@leading.net) References: <01bf1288$b25aa380$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> Message-ID: <19991010054516.27131.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Mike" wrote: > Subject: What's the best RS-232 terminal? > Anybody have a favorite? Why? I don't know how good they really were, but the marketing & sales people at Telebit found some itty bitty CRT terminals they used at trade shows. IIRC the screen had maybe a nine inch diagonal. I think they were made by ITT; I don't recall seeing a "Qume" logo on them, but . The small size made them ideal for situations where space was at a premium. I wish I knew more about them, and especially where to find them. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Oct 10 02:37:35 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: The Day's Finds In-Reply-To: <19991010053822.27014.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: (healyzh@aracnet.com) Message-ID: >> I managed to get a PDP-11/23+ in a nice BA23 chassis, though not sure that > >Not to put to fine a point on it, but is there really such a thing >as a "nice BA23"? One that has the entire plastic shell, instead of one that has just the inner metal chassis, with the two plastic end pieces :^) Better yet, it's the first Q-Bus chassis I've gotten with a PDP badge instead of a VAX badge on it. Granted they're no were near as nice as a BA123, but they do take up a lot less space. Plus it means I'll quit looking at my VAXstation II/RC and thinking about turning it into a PDP-11 :^) >> BUT the find of the day was the AIM 65, still in the original box and >... >> Now I just need to find out what an AIM 65 is! > >Definitely a nice find. (Envy, envy!) > >I think Rich Cini has some docs on his site: > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/index.html > >Good luck with it! Cool, thought there was data out there somewhere, thanks! Looking at it I suddenly find the urge to build a case to hold it. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Oct 10 02:43:31 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: FW: Free VAX 8350 Available In-Reply-To: <37FFD216.45EB451B@apl.jhu.edu> References: <37FFD216.45EB451B@apl.jhu.edu> Message-ID: I'm forwarding this to both CLASSICCMP and the port-vax lists. If you want a crack at giving a Really Nice Sounding VAXen a good home, please contact the author of the attached message directly. Thanks. Enjoy! -=-=- -=-=- On Sat, 09 Oct 1999 19:39:02 -0400, in comp.os.vms you wrote: >>Our company has available for a good home one VAX 8350. >> >>o BI backplane >>o UNIBUS expansion >>o 2 CPUs - 1 broken >>o 1 CMD BI SCSI card >>o 1 UNIBUS Viking UDO (UNIBUS to SCSI) :) :) :) :) >>o 1 U.S. Design 1158 (UNIBUS to SCSI) >>o 16 MB RAM >>o Miscellenous UNIBUS cards. E-mail for complete inventory. >> >>There is a limited life on this system. I am willing to save the >>cards, but not the entire box. Please contact me ASAP so that this >>"ol' yella" can find a good home. Any interest in the entire system >>or cards is welcome. >> >>The system is located at: >> >>U.S. Design >>9075 Guilford Rd. >>Columbia, MD 21046 >> >>Baltimore-Washington corridor. >> >>We will not be willing to ship the entire system, but may consider >>shipping cards/cables, etc. >> >>Please contact: >> >>Chuck McCrobie (** MAD VAX **) >>mccrobie@usdesign.com >>410-381-3000 x130 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Oct 10 05:18:30 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: Seagate ST41200N and ST4766N In-Reply-To: "R. D. Davis" "Seagate ST41200N and ST4766N" (Oct 9, 19:56) References: <199910092356.TAA07509@smarty.smart.net> Message-ID: <9910101118.ZM4042@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 9, 19:56, R. D. Davis wrote: > While trying to make my Sun 4/110 bootable again, I ran into a slight > problem with Seagate's web page: their documentation for older drives, > such as the jumper info., is somewhat undecipherable for someone using > UNIX... perhaps it's readable by MS-DOS/Windows systems, not sure. It is, if they are using "standard" (for MS-DOS) fonts, such as the normal VGA font. > BTW, can anyone tell me what format their web page us using to display > the info? Does Microsoft windows use some sort of unusual ASCII? It's not ASCII, it's using characters in the range 128-255, which in the original PC include line drawing characters. You can download a character set with the line drawing chracters for Windows by following the link near the top of each of Seagate's spec pages. Eg, on http://www.seagate.com/support/disc/specs/st41200n.shtml, there's a line with two links: "Odd characters? _Click_here_for_help_. A version of this specification with the linedraw characters approximated by text is available by _clicking_here_." The first link takes you to a help page for Windoze users, the second takes you to a CGI program that fetches the flat-ASCII version from Seagate's FTP site, ftp://ftp.seagate.com/techsuppt/scsi/st41200n.txt Another way to deal with the problem (if you're using X Windows) is to find and install a font with the line drawing characters. There's one called vga.pcf.Z floating around the web somewhere. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From lance at costanzo.net Sun Oct 10 09:30:47 1999 From: lance at costanzo.net (Lance Costanzo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: What's the best RS-232 terminal? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19991010073045.00ae13c0@costanzo.net> At 03:01 PM 10/09/1999 -0400, you wrote: >Anybody have a favorite? Why? About 20 years ago, my favorite was an HP264X. For some reason, I really liked the feel of the keyboard then. Hate it now. For a basic terminal, its the HP2392A. Its boxlike shape lets you stack stuff on top of it, or put a small printer (like a thinkjet) on it. Optional serial (and IIRC parallel) printer port modules. For general use, I'll stick with a PC and a decent terminal emulator package. I still use my old CompuAdd 286 and DOS mode HPTERM program as a console for the 3000/9X7 under my desk. Lance Costanzo http://www.webhighrise.com System Administrator Website and Virtual Domain Hosting lance@costanzo.net starting at $5/month, no setup fees From rdd at smarty.smart.net Sun Oct 10 09:39:04 1999 From: rdd at smarty.smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: Seagate ST41200N and ST4766N In-Reply-To: <99100922010749@antinode.org> from "sms@antinode.org" at Oct 9, 99 10:01:07 pm Message-ID: <199910101439.KAA32407@smarty.smart.net> Quothe sms@antinode.org: > When you get to a page like > "http://www.seagate.com/support/disc/specs/st41200n.shtml", try > following the link which says "A version of this specification with the > linedraw characters approximated by text is available by clicking here." > It takes you to a page like Ah, so that's what the characters displayed in a small font said. My monitor's just slightly out of focus and the small text like that is unreadable unless I look very closely at it and try to figure it out. As most text on most web pages is bigger than that, I didn't set the default netscape fonts to be any larger. This Gateway 2000 monitor, for some strange reason, lacks a focus control, RGB controls, etc. on the outside of the case. I'll have to open it up and fix it. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com Be careful what you wish for --- you http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd may get your wish ...and it might not Tel: (410) 744-4900 be what you were expecting. From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Oct 10 10:07:56 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: The Day's Finds Message-ID: <199910101507.LAA12415@world.std.com> Now I just need to find out what an AIM 65 is! Aim-65, a small system with keyboard, display and I remember a small printer that used the 6502 cpu and usually had 4-16k of ram and a ROM BASIC. Nice box and it was the next logical step up for those that used KIM-1/SYM-1 for embedded systems or exprimentation. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Oct 10 10:08:07 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: The Day's Finds Message-ID: <199910101508.LAA12535@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199910101534.IAA94581@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Mike" wrote: > Anybody have a favorite? Why? Several. If I want a small, light VT100-like terminal that's easy to move and doesn't take up a lot of space, I use an HP200LX palmtop PC. Why? Because it's there. I use it heavily anyway, and the serial cable and adapter bits are usually not too far away if I'm at home or the office. If I want something with HP terminal emulation or something closer to a real keyboard, I use one of a couple HP Portable Plus systems that I have around with WRQ's Reflection in ROM. Guess I could find a copy of Reflection for DOS and install it on the 200LX but I haven't. If I want something that looks like a terminal, the HP 2382 is nice because it's small and light. If I wanted a printing terminal, I'd probably pull one of the newer, smaller TI Silent 700s out of storage and use that. Or I have a 3M Whisper Writer stashed somewhere in the car right now. Just drop in a roll of FAX paper and I'd be ready to go, and again they're fairly small and light. Of course FAX paper isn't really good as a long-term storage medium, you need a plain-paper printer for that. For just plain neat-o keen-o terminals, there are the HP 264X series of terminals. They don't emulate DEC VT-anything but who cares, if you have a 2645 or 2648 (maybe a 2641 too, not sure) there's an 8080 in there and there are games that can be downloaded to run in the terminal. It's also amusing to note that the display memory isn't fixed as a number of rows of characters -- the displayed text is actually stored as a linked list of 16?-byte chunks, so you can have lots of short lines or fewer long ones, and it's easy to scroll the display window through memory. -Frank McConnell From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 10 10:50:44 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: Seagate ST41200N and ST4766N In-Reply-To: <199910101439.KAA32407@smarty.smart.net> from "R. D. Davis" at Oct 10, 99 10:39:04 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1367 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991010/7f9f3d97/attachment.ksh From emu at ecubics.com Sun Oct 10 11:16:34 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: DS1386-8-150, DS1287A References: <199910101508.LAA12535@world.std.com> Message-ID: <003b01bf133a$d9563640$5d01a8c0@ecubuero> Hi all, anybody knows a source for this chips ? (are dallas timekeeping chips) thanks, emanuel From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 10 10:59:58 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: What's the best RS-232 terminal? In-Reply-To: <19991010054516.27131.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Oct 10, 99 05:45:16 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1761 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991010/eb12304a/attachment.ksh From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Sun Oct 10 11:33:42 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: What's the best RS-232 terminal? In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19991010073045.00ae13c0@costanzo.net> Message-ID: Agreed...a cheap laptop makes a fantastic flexible and portable terminal. I don't have a working HP terminal, so I use a 486 AST laptop I got for free with QCTerm to work on my 3K... Aaron On Sun, 10 Oct 1999, Lance Costanzo wrote: > At 03:01 PM 10/09/1999 -0400, you wrote: > >Anybody have a favorite? Why? > About 20 years ago, my favorite was an HP264X. > For some reason, I really liked the feel of the keyboard then. Hate it now. > > For a basic terminal, its the HP2392A. > Its boxlike shape lets you stack stuff on top of it, or put a small printer > (like a thinkjet) on it. Optional serial (and IIRC parallel) > printer port modules. > > For general use, I'll stick with a PC and a decent terminal emulator package. > I still use my old CompuAdd 286 and DOS mode HPTERM program as a console > for the 3000/9X7 under my desk. > > > > Lance Costanzo http://www.webhighrise.com > System Administrator Website and Virtual Domain Hosting > lance@costanzo.net starting at $5/month, no setup fees > From emu at ecubics.com Sun Oct 10 11:41:30 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: The Day's Finds References: <19991010053822.27014.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <00b401bf133e$5034c940$5d01a8c0@ecubuero> ----- Original Message ----- From: Eric Smith To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Saturday, October 09, 1999 11:38 PM Subject: Re: The Day's Finds > > I managed to get a PDP-11/23+ in a nice BA23 chassis, though not sure that > > Not to put to fine a point on it, but is there really such a thing > as a "nice BA23"? YES, there is something nice about a ba23. Or, tell me how many pdp11s, you can put in a samsonite case with drives, and take it with you ? ( I flew twice from europe with a ba23+cpu+drives+tape) cheers, emanuel From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 10 11:34:15 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: The Day's Finds In-Reply-To: <00b401bf133e$5034c940$5d01a8c0@ecubuero> from "emanuel stiebler" at Oct 10, 99 10:41:30 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 863 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991010/bfec6671/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Sun Oct 10 11:51:19 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: DS1386-8-150, DS1287A Message-ID: <000601bf133f$add8d7c0$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Have you considered ordering these parts directly from Dallas? They have an avenue via which you can do this using your phone and a credit card. This is described on their web site. Dick -----Original Message----- From: emanuel stiebler To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, October 10, 1999 10:19 AM Subject: DS1386-8-150, DS1287A >Hi all, > >anybody knows a source for this chips ? > >(are dallas timekeeping chips) > >thanks, >emanuel > > > From jritorto at nut.net Sun Oct 10 11:58:21 1999 From: jritorto at nut.net (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: The Day's Finds In-Reply-To: <00b401bf133e$5034c940$5d01a8c0@ecubuero> Message-ID: That reminds me.. I was moving to California and wanted to bring my 11/73 in BA23, but the airline only allowed 75-lb packages. As some of you probably know, the ba23 itself is about seventy and it had lots o' boards, tk50 and a st251s in it so I was over the limit. They told me I was like eleven pounds overweight on that 'piece of luggage' and so I yanked the front cover off and began ripping winchesters, wires, etc out of the machine right in front of the whole line. People were staring with astonished faces when I finally got it down to 75 lbs, stashing the removed stuff in my carry-on. They threw it on the conveyor with no disks and no covers and nothing around the outside except a few FRAGILE stickers. It arrived at SFO slightly bent and with huge gouges around the cooling slots. The bottom pedestal attachments were the most difficult parts to bend back into shape. But I put the disks in, checked the boards for tightness and it fired right up when I got to my place. ;^} On Sun, 10 Oct 1999, emanuel stiebler wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Eric Smith > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 1999 11:38 PM > Subject: Re: The Day's Finds > > > > > I managed to get a PDP-11/23+ in a nice BA23 chassis, though not sure > that > > > > Not to put to fine a point on it, but is there really such a thing > > as a "nice BA23"? > > YES, there is something nice about a ba23. Or, tell me how many pdp11s, you > can put in a samsonite case with drives, and take it with you ? > > ( I flew twice from europe with a ba23+cpu+drives+tape) > > cheers, > emanuel > > > > > > From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sun Oct 10 11:57:24 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: What's the best RS-232 terminal? Message-ID: <19991010165724.7039.rocketmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > Agreed...a cheap laptop makes a fantastic flexible and portable terminal. > I don't have a working HP terminal, so I use a 486 AST laptop I got for > free with QCTerm to work on my 3K... I bought a Zenith XT laptop (dual pop-up 720K drives) at a local used place for $15 (no battery) for just this purpose. I use Kermit which is why I want to lay my hands on a Xircom Pocket Adapter III (low power, runs off of a parasitic power cable, not a wall wart) so I can turn it into a telnet- capable terminal, too. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Oct 10 12:34:08 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: The Day's Finds In-Reply-To: <199910101508.LAA12535@world.std.com> Message-ID: > >Must never have gotten any of the BA11 boxes with 11/03 or 11/23 on them. > >I have a nice BA23 that was MicroPDP-11 then modified to MicrovaxII. > >Allison I stand corrected, I do have a BA11 11/23 that I kind of forgot :^) My 11/03's are ALL (I think I've got three) missing the badges. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 10 13:08:02 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: The Day's Finds References: Message-ID: <99101014083408.22724@vault.neurotica.com> On Sun, 10 Oct 1999, Jacob Ritorto wrote: >That reminds me.. > I was moving to California and wanted to bring my 11/73 in BA23, >but the airline only allowed 75-lb packages. As some of you probably >know, the ba23 itself is about seventy and it had lots o' boards, tk50 and >a st251s in it so I was over the limit. They told me I was like eleven >pounds overweight on that 'piece of luggage' and so I yanked the front >cover off and began ripping winchesters, wires, etc out of the machine >right in front of the whole line. People were staring with astonished >faces when I finally got it down to 75 lbs, stashing the removed stuff in >my carry-on. They threw it on the conveyor with no disks and no covers >and nothing around the outside except a few FRAGILE stickers. It arrived >at SFO slightly bent and with huge gouges around the cooling slots. The >bottom pedestal attachments were the most difficult parts to bend back >into shape. > But I put the disks in, checked the boards for tightness and it >fired right up when I got to my place. PDP-11: It takes a licking, and keeps on kilo-core-ticking. ;) -Dave McGuire From a2k at one.net Sun Oct 10 17:40:42 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: Needed / Available Message-ID: Well, it's time for the annual cleaning out of my basement. Here's what I need to start making things work: Monitor cable for a SparcStationII. Mine had the braid exposed when I got it and has gotten worse ever since. Network card for a Mac IIci 4 1Meg Simms, 30 pin (or 2 2... or whatever... at least 4 megs (for a 386) Boot disks for an Atari 800XL and disks of some usefullness for a TRS-80 CoCo model 2. Information on a VAXstation 4000 VLC. I've searched long and hard for ANY info about this machine and have found very little. I have the following that I'm willing to trade: Diconix (Kodak) portable inkjet printer. Fujitsu M1923L 9.6K bps fast poll modem. Monochrome VGA monitor. A comically boring video on how to use Win 3.1. Thanks, Kevin From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 10 19:03:07 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: How on earth do you align an RX50? Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2229 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991011/1a832ef9/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Oct 10 20:43:56 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: How on earth do you align an RX50? Message-ID: <199910110143.VAA18181@world.std.com> Ooops, was working on my SparcII and realized that I had forgotten that I'd done a setenv input-device ttyb and setenv output-device ttyb in the kernel... cable's fine 8-). Now all I have to do is get the NIC on my other linux box to work and I can use it as an xterm... Kevin From jhfine at idirect.com Sun Oct 10 22:22:14 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: How on earth do you align an RX50? References: Message-ID: <380157E6.7219B228@idirect.com> >Tony Duell wrote: > I've currently got an RX50 in bits on the bench, and I am wondering how > on earth you align it. Does anyone know the official DEC procedure? Jerome Fine replies: As others have already said: "Toss the RX50 and replace it!" I know this is also not very helpful (I am in Toronto), but I have a few RX50 drives ready to toss that are perfectly good - just the bottom plastic sled removed which I presume you have. Is it worth while to ship across the pond? No charge except the shipping and packing. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From steverob at hotoffice.com Mon Oct 11 08:16:20 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: What's the best RS-232 terminal? Message-ID: <01BF13C9.486D2550.steverob@hotoffice.com> On Saturday, October 09, 1999 5:59 PM, LordTyran [SMTP:a2k@one.net] wrote: > > On Sat, 9 Oct 1999, Mike wrote: > > Anybody have a favorite? Why? > > - Mike: dogas@leading.net For most tasks, I prefer a PC running a terminal emulator. Steve Robertson - From emu at ecubics.com Mon Oct 11 08:37:46 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: Needed / Available References: Message-ID: <015301bf13ed$d77eede0$5d01a8c0@ecubuero> ----- Original Message ----- From: LordTyran To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Sunday, October 10, 1999 4:40 PM Subject: Needed / Available > Information on a VAXstation 4000 VLC. I've searched long and hard for ANY > info about this machine and have found very little. What do you want to know ? cheers, emanuel From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Oct 11 08:32:17 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: What's the best RS-232 terminal? In-Reply-To: <01BF13C9.486D2550.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991011083217.00ebddf0@vpwisfirewall> At 09:16 AM 10/11/99 -0400, Steve Robertson wrote: > >For most tasks, I prefer a PC running a terminal emulator. A classic is Pro-YAM from Omen Tech . It works well on old hardware, too. There is a shareware version and a commercial version. Some nifty features I use in a classic-computer vein are the scripts, which allow me to quickly invoke the file-capture from a command line, saving to unique filenames. This is handy when grabbing files from a device sans protocol. Another is a BBS sort of mode, which allows you to "dial" the PC from another device on the serial port, and perform uploads and downloads driven from the non-PC device. This has obvious advantages for dialing up a PC from a remote location, as well as driving the PC from a machine across the room. Everything is controllable and scriptable, exotic UARTs are supported, it's been around forever, it's great. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Oct 11 08:30:00 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: ISA expansion boards/cases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991011083000.00ea9750@vpwisfirewall> At 07:01 PM 10/9/99 +0000, Adam Fritzler wrote: > >Is there a good place to find boards that plug into a 16bit ISA slot and >let you have another 8 or so slots? (without building your own) I'll second Richard Erlacher's comments. I remember using and reconfiguring and cajoling a 286-era system with an external bus expansion box. It didn't work well, and it was expensive, but it was the only way to add more than the alloted number of cards. This was in 1985 or so. - John From a2k at one.net Mon Oct 11 08:58:24 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: Needed / Available In-Reply-To: <015301bf13ed$d77eede0$5d01a8c0@ecubuero> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Oct 1999, emanuel stiebler wrote: > > Information on a VAXstation 4000 VLC. I've searched long and hard for ANY > > info about this machine and have found very little. > > What do you want to know ? > > cheers, > emanuel > Basically, everything. Web searches have been depressingly fruitless, yeilding things like the date produced and that's it. I need to know how to netboot it, use a terminal as the console, and install OpenVMS or BSD on it so it can do something useful. Having an actual console wouldn't be bad either. Does it use standard SCSI hard disks? What about ethernet? Thanks, Kevin From yoda at isr.ist.utl.pt Mon Oct 11 10:18:10 1999 From: yoda at isr.ist.utl.pt (Rodrigo Ventura) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: Old 8086 Amstrad Message-ID: Hi. Anyone knows how to enter the BIOS setup in such a PC? Does it even have a BIOS setup utility? Thanks, -- *** Rodrigo Martins de Matos Ventura *** Web page: http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/~yoda *** Teaching Assistant and MSc Student at ISR: *** Instituto de Sistemas e Robotica, Polo de Lisboa *** Instituto Superior Tecnico, Lisboa, PORTUGAL *** PGP fingerprint = 0119 AD13 9EEE 264A 3F10 31D3 89B3 C6C4 60C6 4585 From emu at ecubics.com Mon Oct 11 09:22:13 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: Needed / Available References: Message-ID: <017f01bf13f4$05a85890$5d01a8c0@ecubuero> ----- Original Message ----- From: LordTyran To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Monday, October 11, 1999 7:58 AM Subject: Re: Needed / Available > On Mon, 11 Oct 1999, emanuel stiebler wrote: > > > Information on a VAXstation 4000 VLC. I've searched long and hard for ANY > > > info about this machine and have found very little. > > > > What do you want to know ? > > > > cheers, > > emanuel > > > Basically, everything. Ups ;-) > Web searches have been depressingly fruitless, > yeilding things like the date produced and that's it. So, you get at least something. > I need to know how > to netboot it, use a terminal as the console, and install OpenVMS or BSD > on it so it can do something useful. Having an actual console wouldn't be > bad either. Does it use standard SCSI hard disks? What about ethernet? Ok, If you're interested in *BSD, please go to http://www.netbsd.org Subscribe to the port-vax mailinglist. There you get any help, about netbooting, installing of NetBSD. (but only a diskless install is possible at this time) I use one here with OpenVMS on the harddrive, and NetBSD via Netboot. console: If you dont have the monitor/keyboard/mouse for it, switch the little switch on the right side of the box ( S3 ) to the "up" position. Then insert your favourite terminal to the MMJ connector in the rear of the box, there is a printer sign on it. try 9600 baud, 8n1. that's it. monitor: if you try to use a monitor on it, it should be a good one. The 4000/vlc had two different graphic options: 1024x864x8 and 1280x1024x8, the second needs a 70KHz monitor or better. memory: up to 24 MByte. You can use standard PS/2 memory modules, but only the 4 MByte versions. (always pairs, so the memory is 8/16/24 MByte) disks: standard SCSI. etehernet: standard AUI port. You need a tranceiver to whatever media you like. hope it helps a little, if you have further question, feel free to ask. cheers, emanuel From peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk Mon Oct 11 09:08:49 1999 From: peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: What's the best RS-232 terminal? References: <01bf1288$b25aa380$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> Message-ID: <015101bf13fc$ca1f52c0$b529883e@proteus> Hi Mike, > Anybody have a favorite? Why? My favourites used to be the Televideo 950s which I got with my first PDP-11/23 back in '89. They were shaped rather like VT-100s, but not as wide. They had great keyboards and due to their shape were easy to stack things on - including other TV-950s. Also got rather a soft spot for an earlier model of Televideo terminal which I can't remember the model number of right now....shaped rather like the old ADM-3A's. Great keyboard, and easy to service since they're well laid out inside and the top cover is hinged at the back. Current favourites are the DEC VT220 (and later) line - compact and very versatile. And the HP terminals (I forget the model number) which are commonly used on HP 3000 mainframes. Again they're stackable, and the ability to scroll backwards to see earlier screen output is a godsend - I can't understand why other manufacturers haven't included a similar feature on their units. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk Mon Oct 11 09:11:51 1999 From: peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: What's the best RS-232 terminal? References: Message-ID: <015201bf13fc$cae8bd40$b529883e@proteus> Hi, > For general use...a Wyse 60. Why? Errm....were you aware of the fact that Wyse 30's and 60's have been "banned" in Europe due to the amount of X radiation they put out? We had to scrap about 50 of the things a few years ago at a place I worked because of this.... :-( Use with caution; personally I won't use my Wyse 30s anymore because of this. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From edick at idcomm.com Mon Oct 11 10:23:24 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: Needed / Available Message-ID: <000c01bf13fc$8fe50320$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Oh, BTW . . . if anyone wants one of those 1024x864 color monitors . . . I tried for some time to make it sync to a modified SVGA card but failed to get beyond a stabile display with an 's'-shaped left margin (vertical +/- 2") and gave up . . . I'll happily give the thing up for the cost of packing and shipping. I also have a Philips 19" color monitor formerly used on a uVAX at 1280x1024 with nominally a 64kHz horizontal rate which is in the same category and with which I experienced the same level of success which I'd also happily hand over to whoever wants it. Dick -----Original Message----- From: emanuel stiebler To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, October 11, 1999 8:25 AM Subject: Re: Needed / Available >----- Original Message ----- >From: LordTyran >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Sent: Monday, October 11, 1999 7:58 AM >Subject: Re: Needed / Available > > >> On Mon, 11 Oct 1999, emanuel stiebler wrote: >> > > Information on a VAXstation 4000 VLC. I've searched long and hard for >ANY >> > > info about this machine and have found very little. >> > >> > What do you want to know ? >> > >> > cheers, >> > emanuel >> > >> Basically, everything. > >Ups ;-) > >> Web searches have been depressingly fruitless, >> yeilding things like the date produced and that's it. > >So, you get at least something. > >> I need to know how >> to netboot it, use a terminal as the console, and install OpenVMS or BSD >> on it so it can do something useful. Having an actual console wouldn't be >> bad either. Does it use standard SCSI hard disks? What about ethernet? > >Ok, > >If you're interested in *BSD, please go to http://www.netbsd.org >Subscribe to the port-vax mailinglist. There you get any help, about >netbooting, installing of NetBSD. (but only a diskless install is possible >at this time) >I use one here with OpenVMS on the harddrive, and NetBSD via Netboot. > >console: If you dont have the monitor/keyboard/mouse for it, switch the >little switch on the right side of the box ( S3 ) to the "up" position. Then >insert your favourite terminal to the MMJ connector in the rear of the box, >there is a printer sign on it. >try 9600 baud, 8n1. that's it. > >monitor: if you try to use a monitor on it, it should be a good one. The >4000/vlc had two different graphic options: 1024x864x8 and 1280x1024x8, the >second needs a 70KHz monitor or better. > >memory: up to 24 MByte. You can use standard PS/2 memory modules, but only >the 4 MByte versions. (always pairs, so the memory is 8/16/24 MByte) > >disks: standard SCSI. > >etehernet: standard AUI port. You need a tranceiver to whatever media you >like. > > >hope it helps a little, if you have further question, feel free to ask. > >cheers, >emanuel > > > From emu at ecubics.com Mon Oct 11 10:52:20 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: Needed / Available References: <000c01bf13fc$8fe50320$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Message-ID: <037601bf1400$9da2a220$5d01a8c0@ecubuero> ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Erlacher To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Monday, October 11, 1999 9:23 AM Subject: Re: Needed / Available Hi Richard ;-) > Oh, BTW . . . if anyone wants one of those 1024x864 color monitors . . . I > tried for some time to make it sync to a modified SVGA card but failed to > get beyond a stabile display with an 's'-shaped left margin (vertical +/- > 2") and gave up . . . I'll happily give the thing up for the cost of packing > and shipping. I also have a Philips 19" color monitor formerly used on a > uVAX at 1280x1024 with nominally a 64kHz horizontal rate 1280x1024 on a uVax ? Are you sure ? > which is in the > same category and with which I experienced the same level of success which > I'd also happily hand over to whoever wants it. Probably i pick it up. cheers, emanuel From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Mon Oct 11 10:54:57 1999 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: What's the best RS-232 terminal? Message-ID: <01JH05IFIQSQB2BM6E@cc.usu.edu> > Anybody have a favorite? Why? My favorites are: Heath H-19, DEC VT-52, and DEC VT-220. Unfavorites are: - VT-100. It just doesn't have enough compute power. Since I'm a CP/M WordStar fanatic, requiring XON/XOFF on the console port because the terminal is underpowered is very annoying (^Q and ^S are very important keys in WordStarland). - Anything by Televideo. Televideo keyboards and I don't get along. The touch is too heavy. I press CONTROL [ for escape because I use so many different keyboards and that moves around less than the ESC key, but the Televideo terminals insist on sending ^] no matter how I'm holding the shift key down. - Terminal emulators running on PCs. Seems like there's always some annoying quirk they get wrong. For example, MS-DOS KERMIT didn't play nice with K52 on RT-11 because K52 likes to move the cursor to the 25th line if it decides not to move the cursor at all; a real VT-52 doesn't have a 25th line, but KERMIT does. Another example: PCCONS under NetBSD goes into graphics mode the first time I telnet into a VMS machine to read my mail. I don't know why. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From rdd at smarty.smart.net Mon Oct 11 10:54:51 1999 From: rdd at smarty.smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: What's the best RS-232 terminal? In-Reply-To: <015101bf13fc$ca1f52c0$b529883e@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Oct 11, 99 03:08:49 pm Message-ID: <199910111555.LAA16044@smarty.smart.net> Quothe Peter Pachla: > My favourites used to be the Televideo 950s which I got with my first > PDP-11/23 back in '89. > > They were shaped rather like VT-100s, but not as wide. They had great > keyboards and due to their shape were easy to stack things on - including > other TV-950s. How do you enable VT-100 emulation with the TVI-950? Is this possible?? I agree that the ability to stack things on top of one of these is a good feature that's missing from a lot of terminals... ok, it's got some tilt to it, but at least things like modems, books, etc. and some other equiipment can be stacked on it as long as ventilation isn't blocked off for too long when it's on. I never quite understood the concept of computer equipment designed in such a way that stacking things on top of it was difficult or hazardous. Don't manufacturers realize that it's difficult to stack things that aren't shaped for stacking, and that stackability is helpful for saving space, which many of us are short on? The worst offenders seem to be those new Macintoshes, in assorted colors... those should win an award for the worst computer design of the century; in order to make one of them useful, one would have to build a wood frame, or somesuch, around one, which one should be able to deduct from the purchase price. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com Be careful what you wish for --- you http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd may get your wish ...and it might not Tel: (410) 744-4900 be what you were expecting. From a2k at one.net Mon Oct 11 11:32:21 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: Needed / Available In-Reply-To: <017f01bf13f4$05a85890$5d01a8c0@ecubuero> Message-ID: Yes, the VAX info does help quite a bit. Where can I locate an MMJ-> RS232 adaptor? Or how can I make one? Thanks, Kevin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "It's you isn't it? THE BASTARD OPERATOR FROM HELL!" "In the flesh, on the phone and in your account..." -- BOFH #3 From lemay at cs.umn.edu Mon Oct 11 11:39:14 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: What's the best RS-232 terminal? In-Reply-To: <199910111555.LAA16044@smarty.smart.net> from "R. D. Davis" at "Oct 11, 1999 11:54:51 am" Message-ID: <199910111639.QAA16800@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > > I never quite understood the concept of computer equipment designed in > such a way that stacking things on top of it was difficult or > hazardous. Don't manufacturers realize that it's difficult to stack > things that aren't shaped for stacking, and that stackability is > helpful for saving space, which many of us are short on? The worst > offenders seem to be those new Macintoshes, in assorted > colors... those should win an award for the worst computer design of > the century; in order to make one of them useful, one would have to > build a wood frame, or somesuch, around one, which one should be able > to deduct from the purchase price. > Its because you're NOT supposed to stack stuff on top of the monitors. Since people cant seem to grasp that simple concept, the manufacturers have to slope the tops more and more. the heating vents on the top should have given you a clue as to why they dont want books and papers stored there... -Lawrence LeMay From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Mon Oct 11 11:52:16 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: What's the best RS-232 terminal? Message-ID: <19991011.115217.212.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> > Anybody have a favorite? Why? My terminal of Choice: Wyse WY-50. 1. They're cheap (they show up in thrifts for <$10) 2. Lots of places still repair them, parts are fairly easy to get. 3. I like the 'font' Wyse decided to use; its screen appearance is pleasant to me. 4. Easy to configure 5. Small, lightweight. 6. Comes in Amber phosphor, which I really prefer (although most of mine are green). About the only thing I hate about it is that more often than not, when these are offered for sale, the keyboard is missing. Keyboards for these used to be kinda scarce. Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Oct 11 11:46:08 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: Needed / Available In-Reply-To: <000c01bf13fc$8fe50320$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Message-ID: >Oh, BTW . . . if anyone wants one of those 1024x864 color monitors . . . I >tried for some time to make it sync to a modified SVGA card but failed to >get beyond a stabile display with an 's'-shaped left margin (vertical +/- >2") and gave up . . . I'll happily give the thing up for the cost of packing >and shipping. I also have a Philips 19" color monitor formerly used on a >uVAX at 1280x1024 with nominally a 64kHz horizontal rate which is in the >same category and with which I experienced the same level of success which >I'd also happily hand over to whoever wants it. And the first question to ask about a free for shipping 75 lb monitor is, where is it? ;) I need something to play with some Apollo workstations, but it has to be someplace in SoCal. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Oct 11 11:58:26 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: Needed / Available In-Reply-To: References: <017f01bf13f4$05a85890$5d01a8c0@ecubuero> Message-ID: >Yes, the VAX info does help quite a bit. Where can I locate an MMJ-> RS232 >adaptor? Or how can I make one? What does it "look" like? From emu at ecubics.com Mon Oct 11 12:23:06 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: Needed / Available References: Message-ID: <040401bf140d$4d98e7a0$5d01a8c0@ecubuero> ----- Original Message ----- From: LordTyran To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Monday, October 11, 1999 10:32 AM Subject: Re: Needed / Available > Yes, the VAX info does help quite a bit. Where can I locate an MMJ-> RS232 > adaptor? Or how can I make one? This and even more stuff, you can find at: http://eisner.decus.org/vms/faq.htm cheers, emanuel From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Oct 11 12:25:05 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: Spotting MMJ connectors (Re: Needed / Available) In-Reply-To: References: <017f01bf13f4$05a85890$5d01a8c0@ecubuero> Message-ID: <4.1.19991011102029.040d3f00@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 09:58 AM 10/11/99 -0700, Mike wrote: >What does it [MMJ] "look" like? Ok, save this for your recognition file. The DEC "MMJ" connector looks like a modular telephone plug except that the tab on the bottom (the part that you squeeze to pull it out of its socket) is all the way to one side of the connector. Normal "RJ" type connectors have this in the middle of the connector. Sometimes you will come across DB25 or DB9 terminal type connectors (male and female) and they will have a socket for this type of connector in the back of them. If you spot cables with these connectors, the DBxx plugs with the MMJ connector in the back, or even cables that terminate on one end with these connectors, please save them and then notify this list where they can be found. Thanks, --Chuck From jester909 at Phreaker.net Mon Oct 11 12:26:03 1999 From: jester909 at Phreaker.net (Jester) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: Vic20 help.. Message-ID: <000801bf140d$b37e6a40$59265da6@jester> I have two problems and 2 Vic20s. 1. My uncle had a vic20 ALONG time ago wich I just recently found. When I pluged it in and turned it on "Let there be light!" A big blue flash appeared and I think the fuse blew. Is there any paticurlar fuses that it uses? 2. My other Vic20 works "ok" But when I load a cart it does not start up right away. How do I load a cart? I know LOAD "*",8,1 is for disks. But whats for carts? Thanks.. Sorry if this posts twice for some reason I cant post with my other email address. Jester -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991011/d00bb4e4/attachment.html From cureau at centuryinter.net Mon Oct 11 12:44:17 1999 From: cureau at centuryinter.net (Chris Cureau) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: Vic20 help.. References: <000801bf140d$b37e6a40$59265da6@jester> Message-ID: <380221F0.8DAFD677@centuryinter.net> Jester wrote: > 2. My other Vic20 works "ok" But when I load a cart it does not start > up right away. How doI load a cart? I know LOAD "*",8,1 is for disks. > But whats for carts? Um, all you have to do is plug the cartridge in with the power off, then switch the power on. Cartridges autostart. If the BASIC screen comes up, it's probably not inserted properly. If nothing comes up, you've probably got a bad cartridge. Hope this helps, Chris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991011/adf1a0ec/attachment.html From jester909 at Phreaker.net Mon Oct 11 13:07:03 1999 From: jester909 at Phreaker.net (Jester) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: Vic20 help.. References: <000801bf140d$b37e6a40$59265da6@jester> <380221F0.8DAFD677@centuryinter.net> Message-ID: <001001bf1413$729402a0$59265da6@jester> Hmm.. Must be a bad cart.. But alot of them do that.. :( I have about 30 or so.. And about 12 of them dont autostart. ?? Jester wrote: 2. My other Vic20 works "ok" But when I load a cart it does not start up right away. How doI load a cart? I know LOAD "*",8,1 is for disks. But whats for carts? Um, all you have to do is plug the cartridge in with the power off, then switch the power on. Cartridges autostart. If the BASIC screen comes up, it's probably not inserted properly. If nothing comes up, you've probably got a bad cartridge. Hope this helps, Chris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991011/4a76f15e/attachment.html From emu at ecubics.com Mon Oct 11 13:18:29 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:48 2005 Subject: Vic20 help.. References: <000801bf140d$b37e6a40$59265da6@jester> Message-ID: <044701bf1415$0ccb9300$5d01a8c0@ecubuero> ----- Original Message ----- From: Jester To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Monday, October 11, 1999 11:26 AM Subject: Vic20 help.. > I have two problems and 2 Vic20s. Nope, you have three problems. the third is, you're sending in html ! ;-) cheers, emanuel From jester909 at Phreaker.net Mon Oct 11 13:11:22 1999 From: jester909 at Phreaker.net (Jester) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: ZX81 Question also... Message-ID: <001401bf1414$085bd240$59265da6@jester> Cool! I just went to the Goodwill and found a Amiga 2000 (Bad Power Supply) for $10 and a ZX81 for $5. !! So I have one more question.. Hope nobody minds.. How do I load a program into a ZX81? I get as far as LOAD and then cant seem to figure out the rest. Any Ideas? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991011/2521dc85/attachment.html From cmcmanis at freegate.com Mon Oct 11 13:26:41 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: Board ID : Plessey PM DCV51? Message-ID: <4.1.19991011112017.0406ddb0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Does anyone have any information on a Plessy board model number PM DCV51? It appears to be a disk controller one 34 pin connector and four 20 pin connectors. It has plastic handles on the ends like a QBUS board. (I suppose it could also be a quad wide unibus board but I don't think so.) Markings on one of the chips is: P/N 706131-1001B S/N S-179 1/5/87 Model PM DCV51 (could be OCV51 the D and O are hard to tell) There is a NEC D7261AD chip on the top, an uncovered EPROM (worrisome), several PALs and a large chip (68pin DIP) labelled AM29x305 Anyone? --Chuck From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Oct 11 14:31:13 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: Running a 220v computer in a 110v environment In-Reply-To: <37FCAAE4.F6264253@olf.com> Message-ID: <199910111832.UAA05615@horus.mch.sni.de> > Probably some of you have already done this. I have an equipment, a > parsytec xplorer, k3wl (sp?) :) > that runs a 220v. I got it from across the pond. > Since I am in the states and the power output is 110v, is there any way > for me to run this without getting a transformer to pump it up to > 220v??? Unfortunately, the parsytec doesnt convert automatically like > PC and laptops of today. The xplorers PSU should be _way_ to new to use any obsolete effekt (like ferrit resonant effect transformers). I would assume that it is switchable - maybe you have to check the PSUs PCB for marks. Otherwise it is hard to avoide a transformer. > In my apartment, there is a funny looking plug > next to out AC. I remember somewhat vaugely that it is actually 220v. > Is this true??? How did you guys solve this problem???? I want to get > a good solid response before I blow up the machine :-) Could be - I'm not the expert in US electrics (althrough I just did some studies to buy the right stuff for my 110V paneel) - but 220/240V sounds good when it comes to a 3~ plug. If you buy an aprobiate plug, and whire two 'hots', your system should work well. If the outlet has a distinct Protective Ground, you should also wire PG to allow your GFCI to check for deffective loops. This is save with all newer European stuff, since an in device PE/N connection is no longer valid - also all devices ave to be constructed in a way that there is no need to distinguish between Neutral and 'Hot' (Some exceptions apply to British EQ, but even their manufacturers switched soon, since they don't want to have two different PSUs for the same unit :). If the PSU uses a transformer, you may also check if you can replace it by an aprobiate type for 110V (BTW: A true switched PSU might also run from DC - just, you need some 220 * cos(phi) Volts or roughly 280+ V) And for the frequency: don't care - as long as it is not used as signal (_very_ unlikely in post 1970 designs) you won't have any problem. Power _and_ frequency adjustment is only necersarry for _real_ old stuff - in this case a motor/generator unit is needed - or a petrol engine powered generator :). Anyway, if you want to keep you unit in an unmodified state, and if you think about aquireing more 220V gear, buy either a pre made step up transformer, or build it into your workbench - possibly with a selection of 220V outlets (German/French and British as most notable). Gruss H. P.S.: At VCF, Sallaams 110/220V transformer did bring my Computers to life - even including the Russian TV set :) (BTW: VCF was great, and big hug to all of you) From rdd at smarty.smart.net Mon Oct 11 13:34:57 1999 From: rdd at smarty.smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: MIPS Magnum 3000 questions Message-ID: <199910111834.OAA10371@smarty.smart.net> Greetings, Yesterday, I acquired a MIPS Magnum 3000; no display, no mouse; just the keyboard. Can this system be used from a serial port or ethernet with no monitor or mouse attached? If the system's bootable, can anyone tell me if there's a somewhat easy way, specific to this system, to gain root access, from the console, without having access to a bootable tape? Alternately, can anyone point me in the direction of a boot tape for this machine, and a source of documentation for it? Any other information, such as specifications, etc., pertaining to this machine, would also be greatly appreciated. -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com Be careful what you wish for --- you http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd may get your wish ...and it might not Tel: (410) 744-4900 be what you were expecting. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 11 13:38:02 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: Board ID : Plessey PM DCV51? References: <4.1.19991011112017.0406ddb0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <99101114395918.24601@vault.neurotica.com> On Mon, 11 Oct 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: >Does anyone have any information on a Plessy board model number PM DCV51? > >It appears to be a disk controller one 34 pin connector and four 20 pin >connectors. It has plastic handles on the ends like a QBUS board. (I >suppose it could also be a quad wide unibus board but I don't think so.) 34 and 20...sounds kinda like an MFM disk interface, or perhaps ESDI? >There is a NEC D7261AD chip on the top, an uncovered EPROM (worrisome), >several PALs and a large chip (68pin DIP) labelled AM29x305 Just thinking aloud here, but that AMD chip sounds like a second-sourced 8X305 by its number and physical description. I didn't know they did anything from that family. Those are neat processors...and pretty much the predecessors of today's PIC family. Neat! -Dave McGuire From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 11 13:42:19 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: Spotting MMJ connectors (Re: Needed / Available) References: <4.1.19991011102029.040d3f00@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <9910111447211A.24601@vault.neurotica.com> On Mon, 11 Oct 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: >If you spot cables with these connectors, the DBxx plugs with the MMJ >connector in the back, or even cables that terminate on one end with these >connectors, please save them and then notify this list where they can be found. I got sick of rummaging for cables last summer. I went over to my friendly neighborhood Graybar Electric store (primarily an electrician/contractor supply house) and bought an MMJ crimper and a box of blanks. It set me back seventy bucks, but I've gotten a *lot* of use out of it. Highly recommended. -Dave McGuire From edick at idcomm.com Mon Oct 11 14:00:04 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: Needed / Available Message-ID: <002801bf141a$d67bb540$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> That is a VERY reasonable thing to ask! It's in Denver, and Emanuel Stiebler has expressed interest (he's local) so he'll probably get here first. The experience I have with Apollo monitors for, among others, their 2000-series stations is that they had monitors which were very nice for the time, and worked at 1024x800. These worked fine with a modified SVGA board. There's a local surplus guy who's got about a half dozen Appollo stations with the HP label on them and with HP monitors which he's trying to sell for $75. I doubt he'll sell even one. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Mike Ford To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, October 11, 1999 11:02 AM Subject: Re: Needed / Available >>Oh, BTW . . . if anyone wants one of those 1024x864 color monitors . . . I >>tried for some time to make it sync to a modified SVGA card but failed to >>get beyond a stabile display with an 's'-shaped left margin (vertical +/- >>2") and gave up . . . I'll happily give the thing up for the cost of packing >>and shipping. I also have a Philips 19" color monitor formerly used on a >>uVAX at 1280x1024 with nominally a 64kHz horizontal rate which is in the >>same category and with which I experienced the same level of success which >>I'd also happily hand over to whoever wants it. > >And the first question to ask about a free for shipping 75 lb monitor is, >where is it? ;) I need something to play with some Apollo workstations, but >it has to be someplace in SoCal. > > From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 11 14:13:51 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: Board ID : Plessey PM DCV51? Message-ID: <199910111913.PAA17040@world.std.com> < 34 and 20...sounds kinda like an MFM disk interface, or perhaps ESDI? < <>There is a NEC D7261AD chip on the top, an uncovered EPROM (worrisome), <>several PALs and a large chip (68pin DIP) labelled AM29x305 Nope of EDSI. The 7261 is a MFM controller chip. < Just thinking aloud here, but that AMD chip sounds like a second-sourced <8X305 by its number and physical description. I didn't know they did anyth Message-ID: <9910111517491I.24601@vault.neurotica.com> Looks like a friend of mine will be grabbing this, and I've been drafted to help her out. I'll be sure to take many pictures of the retrieval event, and put them online. :-) -Dave McGuire On Sun, 10 Oct 1999, Bruce Lane wrote: >I'm forwarding this to both CLASSICCMP and the port-vax lists. > > If you want a crack at giving a Really Nice Sounding VAXen a good >home, please contact the author of the attached message directly. > > Thanks. Enjoy! > >-=-=- -=-=- > >On Sat, 09 Oct 1999 19:39:02 -0400, in comp.os.vms you wrote: > >>>Our company has available for a good home one VAX 8350. >>> >>>o BI backplane >>>o UNIBUS expansion >>>o 2 CPUs - 1 broken >>>o 1 CMD BI SCSI card >>>o 1 UNIBUS Viking UDO (UNIBUS to SCSI) :) :) :) :) >>>o 1 U.S. Design 1158 (UNIBUS to SCSI) >>>o 16 MB RAM >>>o Miscellenous UNIBUS cards. E-mail for complete inventory. >>> >>>There is a limited life on this system. I am willing to save the >>>cards, but not the entire box. Please contact me ASAP so that this >>>"ol' yella" can find a good home. Any interest in the entire system >>>or cards is welcome. >>> >>>The system is located at: >>> >>>U.S. Design >>>9075 Guilford Rd. >>>Columbia, MD 21046 >>> >>>Baltimore-Washington corridor. >>> >>>We will not be willing to ship the entire system, but may consider >>>shipping cards/cables, etc. >>> >>>Please contact: >>> >>>Chuck McCrobie (** MAD VAX **) >>>mccrobie@usdesign.com >>>410-381-3000 x130 > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, >Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com >Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com >"...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, >event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From rcini at msn.com Mon Oct 11 14:20:25 1999 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: Fw: Commodore B-128 Message-ID: <006001bf141e$54721400$01c8a8c0@office1> Hello, all: If anyone is interested in this stuff, please contact Bruce directly. Thanks Rich ----------------------------------- [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW1 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ <---------------------------- reply separator ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce Faierson <74366.2014@compuserve.com> To: Sent: Sunday, October 03, 1999 1:00 PM Subject: Commodore B-128 > I saw some messages of yours on a classic computer message board, from a > few years ago. I have several software pakages and some hardware for the > Commodore B-128 series. I was wondering if you or someone you know would > be interested in buying some of it. I have several of each of the > following available: > > B-128 CABS Accounting (all new) (the plastic on the binders is slightly > warped forming little ridged lines, due to faulty manufacture by Commodore) > General Ledger=$15 > Order Entry=$15 > Accounts Payable=$15 > Accounts Receivable=$15 > Payroll=$15 > B-128 North West Software's Inventory Control (new)(rare)(requires use of > SuperBase) =$15 > B-128 Super Script II (new)(in shrinkwrap)=$20 > B-128 Super Base (new)=$15 > B-128 Super Office=$15 > 8032 64k memory expansion board (new)(includes all > documentation)(rare)=$50 > B-128 Users Guide=$12 > B-128 Programmers Reference Guide=$17 > B-128 Computer (used) =$90 > B-500 chassis with B-128 inside (used)=$110 (B-500 chassis is the same as > the B-128's except for the serial number/placement on the > chassis itself) > > Thank You, > Eric Faierson > From rachael_ at gmx.net Mon Oct 11 15:24:18 1999 From: rachael_ at gmx.net (Jacob Dahl Pind) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: Vic20 help.. In-Reply-To: <000801bf140d$b37e6a40$59265da6@jester> Message-ID: <498.953T939T12843091@gmx.net> >2. My other Vic20 works "ok" But when I load a cart it does not start up >right away. How do I load a cart? I know LOAD "*",8,1 is for disks. But whats >for carts? Some of the cart`s need a sys to start them, try sys32692 Regads Jacob Dahl Pind -------------------------------------------------- = IF this computer is with us now... = =...It must have been meant to come live with us.= = (Belldandy - Goddess First class) = -------------------------------------------------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 11 14:30:49 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: Board ID : Plessey PM DCV51? References: <199910111913.PAA17040@world.std.com> Message-ID: <99101115314401.26897@vault.neurotica.com> On Mon, 11 Oct 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: >Maybe, The 8X300 is before that. Nothing like PIC though. None of my AMD >books have that part and the vintage is '82 to 85ish as that was the window >for the 7261. I definitely did read that the PICs design grew out of the 8X30x...I will try to dig up the reference. -Dave McGuire From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 11 12:18:55 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: How on earth do you align an RX50? In-Reply-To: <199910110143.VAA18181@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Oct 10, 99 09:43:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 843 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991011/66ddd9b9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 11 12:27:07 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: How on earth do you align an RX50? In-Reply-To: <380157E6.7219B228@idirect.com> from "Jerome Fine" at Oct 10, 99 11:22:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 725 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991011/6aa256e1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 11 12:39:54 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: What's the best RS-232 terminal? In-Reply-To: <015201bf13fc$cae8bd40$b529883e@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Oct 11, 99 03:11:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1020 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991011/a6345ad1/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Oct 11 14:47:16 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: What's the best RS-232 terminal? In-Reply-To: References: <015201bf13fc$cae8bd40$b529883e@proteus> Message-ID: <4.1.19991011124312.03e31460@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 06:39 PM 10/11/99 +0100, Tony wrote: >I've just dug out the schematics. The model 30 and 60 monitor PCBs are >similar, but not identical. They're also similar to 90% of other mono >monitors out there, and run the CRT in a conventional circuit with around >15kV on the final anode and a normal sort of beam current. >Quite simply, under those conditions you will not get hard X-rays. I realize that Tony didn't post the original, but if you want a Wyse60 with a _really dim_ CRT let me know :-). But for Tony and others, the radiation component for monitors measures: magnetic fields visible light bands ultra-violet thru x-ray bands Part of the equation comes from the circuitry and the accellerating potential on the electrons, and part is the phosphor composition (which converts the kinetic energy of electrons into other wavelengths of course). I've got a handbook on this somewhere but I think it is also on-line on the US FCC site or the Dept of Commerce. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 11 14:33:05 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: What's the best RS-232 terminal? In-Reply-To: <199910111639.QAA16800@thorin.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Oct 11, 99 11:39:14 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 575 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991011/7a7fe14d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 11 14:36:56 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: Vic20 help.. In-Reply-To: <000801bf140d$b37e6a40$59265da6@jester> from "Jester" at Oct 11, 99 11:26:03 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1033 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991011/6fa5d47f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 11 14:53:21 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: ZX81 Question also... In-Reply-To: <001401bf1414$085bd240$59265da6@jester> from "Jester" at Oct 11, 99 12:11:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1015 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991011/e8bdb9b4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 11 14:57:51 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: Board ID : Plessey PM DCV51? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991011112017.0406ddb0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Oct 11, 99 11:26:41 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1511 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991011/cd3a7887/attachment.ksh From bill_r at inetnebr.com Mon Oct 11 15:47:36 1999 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: What's the best RS-232 terminal? Message-ID: <199910112047.PAA23588@falcon.inetnebr.com> >> >> Its because you're NOT supposed to stack stuff on top of the monitors. > >Aren't you? What, not even on ones where the cooling vents are on the >_back_ and where the top of the case is not used as a heatsink or >radiator. :-) :-) > Cooling vents? Oh crap! You mean that isn't a place to keep paperclips?? I thought it seemed like a lot of work to shake a 17" monitor upside down to get a paperclip. And all that arcing and smoking - geeze. What's wrong with these monitor manufacturers? Someone could get hurt! Bill Richman incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf microcomputer simulator!) From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Oct 11 15:52:26 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: Board ID : Plessey PM DCV51? In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19991011112017.0406ddb0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991011135120.03f12d70@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 08:57 PM 10/11/99 +0100, Tony wrote: >Are you sure it's a 68 pin chip? If it was 50-ish pins, I'd believe it to >be a clone of the 8x305 microcontroller, a strange chip that was often >used on disk controller boards. You're right it is a 50 pin chip (not a 68 pin) it is really wide too. --Chuck From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 11 16:04:38 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: How on earth do you align an RX50? Message-ID: <199910112104.RAA00476@world.std.com> <>15kV on the final anode and a normal sort of beam current. <>Quite simply, under those conditions you will not get hard X-rays. Mid 80s thing, X-rays from CDTs... the sky was falling. most passed on Xrays but bombed seriously on RFI (electromagnetic noise) and ergonomics. Be VERY carefull as some of the British equipment I deal with all the time only put a breaker in the Hot leg. They expect the neutral to be at / near ground. If this is wired to US 240 then it will only protect 1 hot lead. The other will be unprotected and ready to bite you. Not to mention the fact you are then depending on the house breaker to protect your equipment. Dan >Could be - I'm not the expert in US electrics (althrough I just did >some studies to buy the right stuff for my 110V paneel) - but 220/240V >sounds good when it comes to a 3~ plug. If you buy an aprobiate plug, >and whire two 'hots', your system should work well. If the outlet has >a distinct Protective Ground, you should also wire PG to allow your >GFCI to check for deffective loops. This is save with all newer European >stuff, since an in device PE/N connection is no longer valid - also all >devices ave to be constructed in a way that there is no need to >distinguish between Neutral and 'Hot' (Some exceptions apply to British >EQ, but even their manufacturers switched soon, since they don't want to >have two different PSUs for the same unit :). From marvin at rain.org Mon Oct 11 16:39:15 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: CRT Radiation, was Re: What's the best RS-232 terminal? References: <015201bf13fc$cae8bd40$b529883e@proteus> Message-ID: <38025902.3EBA3713@rain.org> Peter Pachla wrote: > > Hi, > > > For general use...a Wyse 60. Why? > > Errm....were you aware of the fact that Wyse 30's and 60's have been "banned" > in Europe due to the amount of X radiation they put out? From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 11 16:37:15 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: Board ID : Plessey PM DCV51? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991011112017.0406ddb0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> (message from Chuck McManis on Mon, 11 Oct 1999 11:26:41 -0700) References: <4.1.19991011112017.0406ddb0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <19991011213715.5879.qmail@brouhaha.com> Chuck McManis wrote: > There is a NEC D7261AD chip on the top, That's NEC's disk controller for ST-506 interface drives. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 11 16:39:27 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: What's the best RS-232 terminal? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991011124312.03e31460@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> (message from Chuck McManis on Mon, 11 Oct 1999 12:47:16 -0700) References: <015201bf13fc$cae8bd40$b529883e@proteus> <4.1.19991011124312.03e31460@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <19991011213927.5899.qmail@brouhaha.com> Chuck McManis wrote: > But for Tony and others, the radiation component for monitors measures: > magnetic fields > visible light bands > ultra-violet thru x-ray bands I've been particularly amused by recent advertisements for "radiation-free" monitors. What the hell use would that be? (Except perhaps as a paper weight.) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 11 15:39:18 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: What's the best RS-232 terminal? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991011124312.03e31460@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Oct 11, 99 12:47:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2396 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991011/207e619c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 11 16:51:19 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: Running a 220v computer in a 110v environment In-Reply-To: <01f301bf142d$bae9c6b0$d252e780@tower166.office> from "Daniel T. Burrows" at Oct 11, 99 03:19:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1519 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991011/94024991/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 11 16:54:25 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: Board ID : Plessey PM DCV51? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991011135120.03f12d70@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Oct 11, 99 01:52:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 462 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991011/9a49eb72/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 11 17:00:55 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: How on earth do you align an RX50? In-Reply-To: <199910112104.RAA00476@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Oct 11, 99 05:04:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2262 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991011/bb065e77/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 11 17:04:02 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: What's the best RS-232 terminal? In-Reply-To: <199910112105.RAA00756@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Oct 11, 99 05:05:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1110 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991011/71762208/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 11 17:13:21 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: CRT Radiation, was Re: What's the best RS-232 terminal? In-Reply-To: <38025902.3EBA3713@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Oct 11, 99 02:39:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 817 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991011/92e5e020/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 11 17:14:03 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: What's the best RS-232 terminal? In-Reply-To: <19991011213927.5899.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Oct 11, 99 09:39:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 300 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991011/af502016/attachment.ksh From colacino at redsuspenders.com Mon Oct 11 13:43:32 1999 From: colacino at redsuspenders.com (Ron Colacino) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: Alphamate Message-ID: <000701bf1418$85b27920$156a02d1@h4n0c6> If you still have the Alphamate, please let me know. I may be interested. Ron Colacino -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991011/43fda125/attachment.html From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Mon Oct 11 17:55:40 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: Radio Shack DT-1? Message-ID: <199910112255.SAA18595@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> Anybody out there know about the old Radio Shack DT-1 terminal? Somebody over on the "Obsolete Computer Helpline" was looking for info on how to configure it (it can apparently emulate a few other kinds of terminals) and what the connectors are for (there is a ribbon-cable connector on the bottom in addition to the obvious serial connector on the back.) Also, what was the name that Radio Shack gave to the re-badged Wyse that they were selling once upon a time? Bill. PS. I'm not nominating the DT-1 for best RS-232 terminal. :-) From jhfine at idirect.com Mon Oct 11 20:47:05 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: What's the best RS-232 terminal? References: Message-ID: <38029319.BF69F1C@idirect.com> >Tony Duell wrote: > Yes, but it's a positive pain when you have a lot of monitors (and/or > all-in-one micros) that you need to _store_, not turned on. Round here, > you have to stack things at least 3-high... Jerome Fine replies: But if you want to actually run them turned on when they are even two high, other than a VT100 (which is what I still use for the first level), I have not found another terminal (except for VT100 clones) which allows stacking. In general, I use 6 terminals with 3 VT100s as the first level and 3 VT220s as the second level. With such old systems as the PDP-11 which don't have a Windows environment to allow more than one screen on the terminal at the same time, I find that there is an absolute need for more than one terminal at a time. In general, whenever I am doing some editing on a very long file (more than a 1000 blocks), I usually run 5 edit sessions rather than have a hard copy of the file. 4 edit sessions are for a READ ONLY copy of the assembled listing and the 5th is on the actual source code which makes the charges. One of the 4 edit sessions is almost always somewhere in the cross-reference at the end of the listing which then allows me to look at 3 of those references at the same time within the rest of the listing. I also find the other 4 terminals very useful during a DEBUG session to display that portion of the listing which is being checked out. The problem during a DEBUG session is that the terminal allows only 24 lines at a time from the listing and once the program is frozen within the DEBUG output, so are the rest of the terminals. Having a total of 4 edit sessions with 4 different parts of the listing really helps. One of these years, I will connect another system up with TCP/IP to allow a fast transfer so that I can use one PDP-11 within the DEBUG session and the other 4 terminals on the other PDP-11 looking at the listing AND not frozen in place. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From lemay at cs.umn.edu Mon Oct 11 20:50:56 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: RX02 on PDP8/e Message-ID: <199910120150.UAA01606@thufir.cs.umn.edu> What hardware is needed in order to connect a RX02 to a PDP8/e? Is it just the M8357 RX8E interface card, or is something else (data break?) needed? Can I boot an operating system from a PDP8/e with only a serial terminal and a RX02? While i'm at it, does anyone have a spare M8357? -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 11 20:39:11 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: RX02 on PDP8/e In-Reply-To: <199910120150.UAA01606@thufir.cs.umn.edu> (message from Lawrence LeMay on Mon, 11 Oct 1999 20:50:56 -0500 (CDT)) References: <199910120150.UAA01606@thufir.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <19991012013911.9304.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Lawrence LeMay > What hardware is needed in order to connect a RX02 to a PDP8/e? Is > it just the M8357 RX8E interface card, or is something else (data break?) > needed? No data break interface required. > Can I boot an operating system from a PDP8/e with only a serial terminal > and a RX02? You'll either need to toggle in a boot loader, or get one of those diode matrix ROM cards suitably programmed. From jhfine at idirect.com Mon Oct 11 21:01:10 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: How on earth do you align an RX50? References: Message-ID: <38029666.4D00EA5C@idirect.com> >Tony Duell wrote: > Oh, come on. You know me :-). I'm the sort of person who spends a day in > the garage to make a part for a $10 PC drive. I have no intention on > _replacing_ the entire drive... Jerome Fine replies: I feel the same way. I am currently looking into going to my local Radio Shack to get a degausser to make TK50 tapes acceptable to a TK70. > > I know this is also not very helpful (I am in Toronto), but I have > > a few RX50 drives ready to toss that are perfectly good - just > Surely somebody in the States/Canada wants them (or am I the only person > to be interested in Rainbows, DECmates, Pro's, VAXen, etc). Or else they have all the RX50 drives that they want. Right now, the only use I have for an RX50 drive is for the transfer of small files from a PDP-11 <==> PC. For large transfers, I will attempt to use a Zip drive. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From lemay at cs.umn.edu Mon Oct 11 21:02:43 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: RX02 on PDP8/e In-Reply-To: <19991012013911.9304.qmail@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "Oct 12, 1999 01:39:11 am" Message-ID: <199910120202.VAA01624@thufir.cs.umn.edu> > > Lawrence LeMay > > What hardware is needed in order to connect a RX02 to a PDP8/e? Is > > it just the M8357 RX8E interface card, or is something else (data break?) > > needed? > > No data break interface required. > > > Can I boot an operating system from a PDP8/e with only a serial terminal > > and a RX02? > > You'll either need to toggle in a boot loader, or get one of those > diode matrix ROM cards suitably programmed. > I also have a diode matrix ROM card. -Lawrence LeMay From msg at computerpro.com Mon Oct 11 21:58:23 1999 From: msg at computerpro.com (Grigoni) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: Mailing list suggestions Message-ID: Greetings. I have found the traffic on this list invaluable and someday when I have the drive space and a highspeed link I'll download the archives :-) In the meantime I'd like to suggest a splitting of the list into two streams to permit a useful lower bandwidth subscription and still allow for the chattier subscribers to freely communicate. The lower bandwidth list could be dedicated to buy/sell notices and alerts and moderated Q&A (perhaps the latter culled from the freeform list). When I first subscribed I tried to read every post and reply but soon fell behind (there's only so much time at the keyboard) so I decided to maintain and archive and do keyword searches on it. If this topic has been covered please accept my apology. Michael Grigoni Cybertheque Museum From msg at computerpro.com Mon Oct 11 22:11:02 1999 From: msg at computerpro.com (Grigoni) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: CDC 924 console in 'The Terminator' Message-ID: Greetings again! Having not seen the film 'The Terminator' until a few days ago (on The SciFi Channel)... I know, I live in a cave, I was very surprised to see a CDC 924 (or 924A ?) console, complete with Ferranti photo tape reader evidently hooked-up in some fashion to illuminate the rear- projection register and status displays. The scene is in the factory populated with assembly robots towards the film's climax. I have only seen one other 924 console (in person) in about 1975 at an electronics surplus salvage yard in the San Fernando Valley, where it was being used as a workbench! IIRC, there were only about two dozen 924s made. It was a 24bit version of the 48bit 1604, CDC's debut commercial product in 1957-58. Does anyone have a handle on film industry computer archaeology, perhaps contacts at studios or property shops? For years I've been meaning to pursue this venue but alas... I've been compiling lists of film and television shows which showcase important computer artifacts (one would be surprised at the variety of significant hardware in 1950-60's TV, especially sci-fi anthology series. Any additions to these lists would be appreciated. In addition, we seek newsreel, scholastic and training films which highlight important information technology (I wish I had followed school district auctions in the early 1980's when all those 16mm films of MIT Whirlwind, AN-FSQ/17 Sage, Bendix G-15 Redstone launch control and the like were discarded. Michael Grigoni Cybertheque Museum From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 11 22:10:58 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: RX02 on PDP8/e Message-ID: <199910120310.XAA23711@world.std.com> Message-ID: Just discovered a s/w contracting firm whose website's current capabilities list includes the CDC 924 (assembly language, etc); perhaps their location in Pahrump, Nevada (in the middle of nowhere) and the desert climate contributes to the extended life of these products: http://www.premiersw.com/pages/techsum.html Michael Grigoni Cybertheque Museum From msg at computerpro.com Mon Oct 11 23:04:45 1999 From: msg at computerpro.com (Grigoni) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: CDC 924 console in 'The Terminator' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A reasonbly good scan of the showcase photograph from a marketing brochure for the CDC 924 can be found at: http://www.mtr.webconcept.de/image/ computer/cdc/924.jpg Michael Grigoni Cybertheque Museum From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 11 23:14:38 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: CDC 924 console in 'The Terminator' References: Message-ID: <99101200155300.27323@vault.neurotica.com> On Tue, 12 Oct 1999, Grigoni wrote: >A reasonbly good scan of the showcase photograph from a marketing brochure >for the CDC 924 can be found at: http://www.mtr.webconcept.de/image/ >computer/cdc/924.jpg Huh? You sure about that URL? I get a 404... -Dave McGuire From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Tue Oct 12 01:37:32 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:49 2005 Subject: Amiga World magazines Message-ID: <199910120637.CAA20188@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> I've got a small pile of Amiga magazines available. The pile contains most issues from 1991 through and including 1994, plus a couple issues outside of that range. There are also about a year's worth of Amiga Computing magazine which seem to be from 1995 and 1996, but sport a bewildering variety of issue numbers and dates, with very few having both an issue number AND a date, and with issue 2 following issue 87 (those two had both)... Make offers. If the highest valid offer is less than double the lowest one, the first one to arrive is the one that wins. The intent is FCFS unless somebody really _REALLY_ wants them. Valid offers are those that meet or exceed the cost of postage. :-) I'll wait until noon on Thursday to decide. You could also look at my "wanted" web page and offer things from there, in which case I'll have to decide whether I'd rather have that or the money: http://www.cs.unc.edu/~yakowenk/classiccmp/wanted.html Cheers, Bill. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Oct 12 01:09:29 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: Needed / Available In-Reply-To: <002801bf141a$d67bb540$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Message-ID: >There's a local surplus guy who's got about a half dozen Appollo stations >with the HP label on them and with HP monitors which he's trying to sell for >$75. I doubt he'll sell even one. Sad fact is that they are often worth more scrapped than running. From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Tue Oct 12 01:42:21 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: CDC 924 console in 'The Terminator' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, Have you posted this list somewhere publically accessible yet? I'd be interested to see... Aaron On Mon, 11 Oct 1999, Grigoni wrote: > > Greetings again! > > Having not seen the film 'The Terminator' until a few days ago (on The > SciFi Channel)... I know, I live in a cave, I was very surprised to > see a CDC 924 (or 924A ?) console, complete with Ferranti photo tape > reader evidently hooked-up in some fashion to illuminate the rear- > projection register and status displays. The scene is in the factory > populated with assembly robots towards the film's climax. > > I have only seen one other 924 console (in person) in about 1975 at > an electronics surplus salvage yard in the San Fernando Valley, where it > was being used as a workbench! > > IIRC, there were only about two dozen 924s made. It was a 24bit version > of the 48bit 1604, CDC's debut commercial product in 1957-58. > > Does anyone have a handle on film industry computer archaeology, perhaps > contacts at studios or property shops? For years I've been meaning to > pursue this venue but alas... > > I've been compiling lists of film and television shows which showcase > important computer artifacts (one would be surprised at the variety of > significant hardware in 1950-60's TV, especially sci-fi anthology > series. Any additions to these lists would be appreciated. > > In addition, we seek newsreel, scholastic and training films which > highlight important information technology (I wish I had followed > school district auctions in the early 1980's when all those 16mm > films of MIT Whirlwind, AN-FSQ/17 Sage, Bendix G-15 Redstone > launch control and the like were discarded. > > Michael Grigoni > Cybertheque Museum > > From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Tue Oct 12 01:44:20 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: aperiodic announcement Message-ID: <199910120644.CAA20214@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> It's been a long while since I mentioned it, so here goes: Join the "Classic Computer Rescue Squad"! Be the envy of your neighborhood! See your name up in lights^H^H^H^H^H^Hpixels! See http://www.cs.unc.edu/~yakowenk/classiccmp/ For those of you on that list, maybe this is a good time to check that your entry is up-to-date, and let me know if it is not. Finally, there are also links there to two (count 'em, 2!) archive sites, a searchable index, and the u.washington web page that gives instructions for [un]subscribing. And a whole lot more! (Yah, okay, enough.) Bill. From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Tue Oct 12 02:35:27 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: Floppy disks again Message-ID: <199910120735.DAA20413@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> Okay, one final question before I drop this topic forever (or until tomorrow, whichever comes first). How is it possible that DD media could be of such poor quality that it can't (reliably?) do 96 TPI, while still being just fine at 48 TPI? I mean, it is recording something like 3000 bits per inch along each track, right? How could that same media not have enough resolution to keep the bits of adjacent tracks separate at less than 100 per inch? Can somebody who believes this can happen give me a mental model of what is going on there? I mean, in terms of physics or geometry or mechanics or anything measurable and specific. It sounds to me like it must be the drive, and not the media, that limits the number of tracks to anything below 1500 TPI. Thanks, Bill. From wrm at ccii.co.za Tue Oct 12 03:03:22 1999 From: wrm at ccii.co.za (Wouter de Waal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: Mitsubishi monitor Message-ID: <199910120803.KAA24518@ccii.co.za> Hi all I came across a large, heavy Mitsubishi monitor, C-3910ELP, manufactured in September 1980. I want to use it as a display for MAME (arcade game emulator) in 288x224 mode (NTSC or PAL-type timing), but I can't get the thing to sync on such a signal. The monitor has *lots* of pots for setting who-knows-what, and many many jumpers. Somebody might have fiddled with it before as well. So, anybody know anything about this beast? I can put up pictures if required. Thanks Wouter From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Tue Oct 12 03:45:00 1999 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: Old 8086 Amstrad Message-ID: <001101bf148e$1218f400$5b3ec018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> I don't know, but here's a link to an Amstrad site: http://web.ukonline.co.uk/cliff.lawson/product.htm -----Original Message----- From: Rodrigo Ventura To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, 12 October 1999 0:19 Subject: Old 8086 Amstrad > > Hi. Anyone knows how to enter the BIOS setup in such a PC? >Does it even have a BIOS setup utility? > > Thanks, > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Oct 12 04:53:22 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: Running a 220v computer in a 110v environment In-Reply-To: <01f301bf142d$bae9c6b0$d252e780@tower166.office> Message-ID: <199910120854.KAA25923@horus.mch.sni.de> > >Could be - I'm not the expert in US electrics (althrough I just did > >some studies to buy the right stuff for my 110V paneel) - but 220/240V > >sounds good when it comes to a 3~ plug. If you buy an aprobiate plug, > >and whire two 'hots', your system should work well. If the outlet has > >a distinct Protective Ground, you should also wire PG to allow your > >GFCI to check for deffective loops. This is save with all newer European > >stuff, since an in device PG/N connection is no longer valid - also all > >devices ave to be constructed in a way that there is no need to > >distinguish between Neutral and 'Hot' (Some exceptions apply to British > >EQ, but even their manufacturers switched soon, since they don't want to > >have two different PSUs for the same unit :). > Be VERY carefull as some of the British equipment I deal with all the time only > put a breaker in the Hot leg. Well, to confuse you even more, _all_ European EQ is only ment to have _one_ switch and _one_ fuse inside the circuit - and there is basicly _no_ distingtion between 'hot' or 'neutral' > They expect the neutral to be at / near ground. Acording to actual EU (and local) regulations it is not allowed for devices to expect any single wire to have a special potential, with an exception of the PG of course. > If this is wired to US 240 then it will only protect 1 hot lead. The other will > be unprotected and ready to bite you. Not to mention the fact you are then > depending on the house breaker to protect your equipment. A fuse will never protect _you_ nor the device. It is only ment to protect the house/the installation. A devices fuse solves still its purpose (by means of the codes) if it is not blown while parts of the device are damaged thru an electrical fault, as long as these parts can't cause any further damage outside the device (liek fire). And for this, there is no logical need to have it in a special position of the circuit. The same is true for switches. Alas, don't forget, Neutral is by definition _not_ Ground (PG). A proper system (house instalation) is only supposed keep it that way. And just remember all the 2 wire plugged gear - they also have in almost all cases only one switch and one fuse - and you can plug them either way. We are still talking about AC. Gruss H. P.S.: Sallam: I guess this could give a nice speach for VCF (Europe). -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Oct 12 07:55:24 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: Tape drive help and/or part needed (Attention DEC-heads!) Message-ID: <13490857829.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I either need to find someone who knows what they're doing with a TU77, or someone who has and can get rid of a TM03 formatter for a TU77 with the special 18-bit card. Chris Zach (cz@alembic.crystel.com) has the MIT-AI KS10, and wants to run ITS on it, but his tape drive (A TU77) is screwed up. It generates a FORMATTER ERROR in the Status register whenever it's on. He has booted from drives on the same Massbus so that's OK. Having a real '10 with ITS on the 'net again would be a really good thing. Does anyone think they can help this guy? ------- From emu at ecubics.com Tue Oct 12 07:58:28 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: What's the best RS-232 terminal? References: <38029319.BF69F1C@idirect.com> Message-ID: <001301bf14b1$88a0f500$5d01a8c0@ecubuero> ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerome Fine To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Monday, October 11, 1999 7:47 PM Subject: Re: What's the best RS-232 terminal? > But if you want to actually run them turned on when they are even two > high, other than a VT100 (which is what I still use for the first level), I > have not found another terminal (except for VT100 clones) which allows > stacking. What about a VT52 ? three levels, and even then, you can handle the keyboards & have some manuals on top ;-) > In general, I use 6 terminals with 3 VT100s as the first level > and 3 VT220s as the second level. With such old systems as the > PDP-11 which don't have a Windows environment to allow more > than one screen on the terminal at the same time, I find that there > is an absolute need for more than one terminal at a time. In general, > whenever I am doing some editing on a very long file (more than a > 1000 blocks), I usually run 5 edit sessions rather than have a hard > copy of the file. 4 edit sessions are for a READ ONLY copy of the > assembled listing and the 5th is on the actual source code which makes > the charges. One of the 4 edit sessions is almost always somewhere > in the cross-reference at the end of the listing which then allows me to > look at 3 of those references at the same time within the rest of the > listing. Ups ;-) I always used different terminals on different computers. But just an idea, why don't you get something with XWindows, so you could see all this sessions on one screen ? cheers, emanuel From emu at ecubics.com Tue Oct 12 08:05:54 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: How on earth do you align an RX50? References: <38029666.4D00EA5C@idirect.com> Message-ID: <001d01bf14b2$86935540$5d01a8c0@ecubuero> ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerome Fine To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Monday, October 11, 1999 8:01 PM Subject: Re: How on earth do you align an RX50? > I feel the same way. I am currently looking into going to my local > Radio Shack to get a degausser to make TK50 tapes acceptable > to a TK70. Hi Jerome, You've seen this info: http://www.netbsd.org/Library/Hardware/Machines/DEC/vax/tk50.html Just in case, you don't like to spend the hundreds of bucks for a big degausser .. cheers, emanuel From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Oct 12 08:07:32 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: Tape drive help and/or part needed (Attention DEC-heads!) In-Reply-To: <13490857829.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at "Oct 12, 1999 5:55:24 am" Message-ID: <199910121307.JAA24689@pechter.dyndns.org> > I either need to find someone who knows what they're doing with a TU77, > or someone who has and can get rid of a TM03 formatter for a TU77 with the > special 18-bit card. I'm pretty good with TM03/TU77 on 16 bit hardware, but I've got no experience on the 10's. Was this TM03 originally installed on the KS or has it come from somewhere else. I'm wondering if it's got all the correct varients for the TU77 and 18 bit bit fidler. Anyone have a TM03 print set that I can look at... It's been 13 years since I scoped one out. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From vaxman at uswest.net Tue Oct 12 08:25:30 1999 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: Floppy disks again In-Reply-To: <199910120735.DAA20413@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: Hi Bill, First off, 3:30 in the morning is too early to be reading mail. Go to bed :) Most of my knowledge is from hard disks, but should apply OK. Basically, magnetic media is a tradeoff between coercivity (how easy it is to flip the bits) and write current (how hard you have to try and flip the bits). A material with high coercivity resists being re-magnetized in a different direction. The more write current you push through the head increases the electro-magnets power, but also increases its SIZE. More write current means you are writing bigger transistions. Remember, you can't read a 'north' as a one, you can only detect when the 'north' changes to a 'south' (a transistion). Ok, so 48 TPI media has low coercivity, so a 96TPI head with higher write current will cause the adjacent tracks to erase because of the magnet fringes from the head. These magnetic fringes aren't strong enough to effect 96TPI media because it has a higher coercivity. Finally, the head controls the size of the track. The width of the magnetic poles sets the width of the track written, plus a little fringing to provide track erasing to clean the previously written data in case of track misalignment. The bit density is controlled by how fast the head is moving w/respect to the media, and how fast you can toggle the write current. Think of it this way: if you have a stencil .1x.1 and can fill it in in either red or blue. put the stencil down and fill it in red. now move the stencil 1/3000 inch. put the stencil down and fill it in blue. repeat a LOT. Now you have 10 TPI at 3000 bits/inch. Make sense? I will look for a picture from a class I took many years ago and put it somewhere. I think I still have a geocities webpage :) clint On Tue, 12 Oct 1999, Bill Yakowenko wrote: > Okay, one final question before I drop this topic > forever (or until tomorrow, whichever comes first). > > How is it possible that DD media could be of such > poor quality that it can't (reliably?) do 96 TPI, > while still being just fine at 48 TPI? > > I mean, it is recording something like 3000 bits per > inch along each track, right? How could that same > media not have enough resolution to keep the bits of > adjacent tracks separate at less than 100 per inch? > Can somebody who believes this can happen give me a > mental model of what is going on there? I mean, in > terms of physics or geometry or mechanics or anything > measurable and specific. > > It sounds to me like it must be the drive, and not > the media, that limits the number of tracks to > anything below 1500 TPI. > > Thanks, > Bill. > > > From musicman38 at mindspring.com Tue Oct 12 09:26:38 1999 From: musicman38 at mindspring.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: Old 8086 Amstrad Message-ID: <003001bf14bd$cda23f40$75348ad1@home> WOW! Great Timing on the infor for the Amstrad Website.. I can't believe you guys are on the subject of Amstrad PC6400.. I just purchased one at the local Thrift store yesterday for $4.04 and when I got to the checkout line the lady told me it was half price day so for only $2.02 I got this really cool Portable XT dual 720KB floppies, and a nice LCD screen.. Very impressive machine for 1987.. And it appears to run on standard D batteries for portable use.. Looking forward to learning all about it.. Phil... -----Original Message----- From: Olminkhof To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, October 12, 1999 04:42 AM Subject: Re: Old 8086 Amstrad >I don't know, but here's a link to an Amstrad site: > >http://web.ukonline.co.uk/cliff.lawson/product.htm > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Rodrigo Ventura >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Tuesday, 12 October 1999 0:19 >Subject: Old 8086 Amstrad > > >> >> Hi. Anyone knows how to enter the BIOS setup in such a PC? >>Does it even have a BIOS setup utility? >> >> Thanks, >> > > From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Tue Oct 12 09:23:03 1999 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: Tape drive help and/or part needed (Attention DEC-heads!) In-Reply-To: <13490857829.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Oct 1999 05:55:24 -0700 "Daniel A. Seagraves" wrote: > I either need to find someone who knows what they're doing with a TU77, > or someone who has and can get rid of a TM03 formatter for a TU77 with the > special 18-bit card. I have a TU77 and TM03 from a Decsystem-20, which means that it's the 18-bit version. I'd be glad to help get the MIT machine running again! The problem is going to be transport... the TU77 is in Bristol, UK. Is it worth trying to ship the drive back to the USA? I'd be only too pleased to re-claim the space in my garage that the TU77 takes up :-) -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Oct 12 09:31:02 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: Tape drive help and/or part needed (Attention DEC-heads!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13490875240.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I forwarded that off to Chris, since it's his machine. I don't know if he'd need the whole drive or not, but I bet shipping it would be killer. How much do those things weigh, anyway? ------- From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 12 09:33:08 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: Floppy disks again In-Reply-To: <199910120735.DAA20413@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: > How is it possible that DD media could be of such > poor quality that it can't (reliably?) do 96 TPI, > while still being just fine at 48 TPI? ???? Nonsense question, no context. I have no difficulty nor is there any reason to expect difficulty with 96tpi DD ops. I have expereinced using formerly formatted media of 96 or 48TPI that REQUIRED bulk erasure to be usable. I believe that intertrack noise due to differnt track widths are why. I regurally use PC360k, Vt180, RX50 and Visual1050 media and they are 48 TS, 48 SS, 96ss, 96ss/TS all running at DD data rates. > media not have enough resolution to keep the bits of > adjacent tracks separate at less than 100 per inch? The recorded track density is not he same as the TRACK WIDTH or the TRACK position. > Can somebody who believes this can happen give me a > mental model of what is going on there? I mean, in > terms of physics or geometry or mechanics or anything > measurable and specific. For all DD the number of bits per track will be the same (generally) so whats different? The spacing of the tracks and their width. Both 48 and 96 tpi drives write their trace in the same ~1" band on the media. The older 48tpi drives sliced this into 40 bands of .025"(approx) wide. To allow for error the head writes and area less than that. Not the newer 96tpi drives also use that same ~1" but put 80 bands in that space, they are .0125(approx) wide. The head is narrower to align and fit in that space. The old 48tpi heads literally straddle two of the 96tpi tracks if you go from 96 down to 48. Worse is that if you dilberatly skip a track to try and create a "48tpi compatable disk" you still write a track that is less than half the width. When you read it there is less than half the magnetized area and half the signal. This promotes errors. Going the other way, works better as the narrow 96tpi head gets to read a track wider than itself, lots of signal. Can't write though as the head is narrower than the old wide track, this means writing with a narrower head can only erase a tunnel in the data previously written. read it back and likely it's ok only less the drive is a different one and alingment is off ever so slightly allowing both old data nd new data to be visible, errors result. Try to read that disk on a 48tpi drive and the wide head reads old data and new data, results will be poor at best. > It sounds to me like it must be the drive, and not > the media, that limits the number of tracks to > anything below 1500 TPI. It's the .667 mil (0.0006666) wide head and the positioner. Yes, specifically head width. The media also limits things some as very narrow head will tend to dig into the media and the width of the track also defines signal level. Zip disks are high track density floppies using special cobalt media for high bit density and also high track density. They aslo have servo info on the media to aid in finding the rather narrow tracks. This is why 135 tpi has been the limit for absolute mechanical positioners like floppies. At some point the track is so narrow you have to be able to hunt for it and stepper based positioners are inexpensive but lack resolution (and speed) for that task. The next generation will be some form of voicecoil and the media will have embedded servo (Zip, LS120, Jaz and friends). At some point you bridge the differences between floppy and hard disk. There are really several questions in your posting. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 12 09:49:15 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: Floppy disks again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Ok, so 48 TPI media has low coercivity, so a 96TPI head with higher > write current will cause the adjacent tracks to erase because of > the magnet fringes from the head. These magnetic fringes aren't > strong enough to effect 96TPI media because it has a higher > coercivity. ???? reread that and see if it makes sense to you... There are two media for 96tpi, one for DD and lower and is the SAME magnetic material as 48tpi. THere is also the 1.2mb media and this is VERY DIFFERENT and incompatable with any other drive or density. So if we ignore 1.2mb media and the oddbal spindle speeds and data rates that go with it we come down to one media (softs sector) and 6 different drives over the years. They are: 48tpi single sided (sa400) 48tpi double sided (sa450) 96tpi single sided (teac Fd55E or DEC RX50) 96tpi double sided (teac FD55F) 100tpi single and double sided models (micropolus I think) *there may have been others mostly forgetable. Apple and other GCR unique drive not included as they are NOT standard floppies as often they were standard drives with differences introduced. They all record data at roughly the same linear density (FM at 125kbs or MFM at 250kbs all rotate at 300rpm) and differ largely on the number of sides, width of track and absolute position for tracks greater than 000. Allison From msg at computerpro.com Tue Oct 12 10:14:35 1999 From: msg at computerpro.com (Grigoni) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: CDC 924 console in 'The Terminator' In-Reply-To: <99101200155300.27323@vault.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Oct 1999, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Tue, 12 Oct 1999, Grigoni wrote: > >A reasonbly good scan of the showcase photograph from a marketing brochure > >for the CDC 924 can be found at: http://www.mtr.webconcept.de/image/ > >computer/cdc/924.jpg > > Huh? You sure about that URL? I get a 404... I swear that last night the URL was good; today I get the same results. I did save the photograph and will mail it to anyone interested. Michael Grigoni Cybertheque Museum From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Tue Oct 12 10:28:05 1999 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: What's the best RS-232 terminal? Message-ID: <01JH1J0EASDEAZTRBT@cc.usu.edu> >But if you want to actually run them turned on when they are even two >high, other than a VT100 (which is what I still use for the first level), I >have not found another terminal (except for VT100 clones) which allows >stacking. The VT52 stacks really well, as does the H19. It's also possible to unbolt the keyboard from an H19 and replace the cable with a really long one, which gives you a detached keyboard to set on your lap and a handy shelf for storing it on when you're not using it. I once had a setup with six VT52s (two piles containing three VT52s each). I foolishly built the pile right underneath the thermal cutoff for the computer room power, so I wound up having to move it. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From edick at idcomm.com Tue Oct 12 10:45:43 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: Needed / Available Message-ID: <003201bf14c8$d914d8a0$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Well . . . what I meant was the monitors. That's what he's asking $75 for and without the Appollo stations they're of little use, being fixed frequency types. If he asked $25 for them they'd still be difficult to move. I don't see that the monitors have much value as scrap. Unfortunately, in one localized area, there's not such a concentration of "old-computer" fanatics to provide homes for all of them. The fact that they all work has clouded the vision of the shop owner, and the fact that he doesn't have root passwords, etc, needed to take control of them makes them of little interest to potential users, even though it does seem to show that they're working machines. Besides, for a couple of hundred bucks one gets a P-II or something like that with no real effort required to make it work. They'll end up as scrap. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Mike Ford To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, October 12, 1999 12:45 AM Subject: Re: Needed / Available >>There's a local surplus guy who's got about a half dozen Appollo stations >>with the HP label on them and with HP monitors which he's trying to sell for >>$75. I doubt he'll sell even one. > >Sad fact is that they are often worth more scrapped than running. > > From jdykstra at nortelnetworks.com Tue Oct 12 10:08:30 1999 From: jdykstra at nortelnetworks.com (John Dykstra) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: CDC 924 console in 'The Terminator' Message-ID: On Monday, October 11, 1999 10:11 PM, Grigoni [SMTP:msg@computerpro.com] wrote: > I've been compiling lists of film and television shows which showcase > important computer artifacts (one would be surprised at the variety of > significant hardware in 1950-60's TV, especially sci-fi anthology > series. Any additions to these lists would be appreciated. There was a Cyber 180-series machine in a Bruce Willis vehicle about an office building on fire (can't remember the title--I live in a deeper cave than Michael does). The hardware was actually provided by CDC, although I'm not sure whether they realized the machine would be destroyed on screen. In any event, the set dressing was only the machine frame and skins--no circuitry inside. -- John From jdykstra at nortelnetworks.com Tue Oct 12 10:08:31 1999 From: jdykstra at nortelnetworks.com (John Dykstra) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: CDC 924 console in 'The Terminator' Message-ID: On Monday, October 11, 1999 11:05 PM, Grigoni [SMTP:msg@computerpro.com] wrote: > A reasonbly good scan of the showcase photograph from a marketing brochure > for the CDC 924 can be found at: http://www.mtr.webconcept.de/image/ > computer/cdc/924.jpg The correct URL is . Michael, when was this machine marketed? The tape drives in the photo look like 607's, and the chassis is similar to a 6000-series machine. It's amusing to note that the teletypewriter in the photo is an IBM model. CDC made some pretty good peripherals, but they didn't try to out-do IBM in this arena. -- John From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Oct 12 10:55:51 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: Tape drive help and/or part needed (Attention DEC-heads!) In-Reply-To: <13490875240.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Oct 12, 99 07:31:02 am Message-ID: <199910121555.IAA11341@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 251 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991012/6c4ebb9f/attachment.ksh From Mzthompson at aol.com Tue Oct 12 11:48:09 1999 From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: Spotting MMJ connectors (Re: Needed / Available) Message-ID: <0.78a18bcf.2534c049@aol.com> Kevin ( LordTyran ) wrote: > Where can I locate an MMJ-> RS232 adaptor? Or how can I make one? Dave McGuire wrote: > I got sick of rummaging for cables last summer. I went over to my friendly > neighborhood Graybar Electric store (primarily an electrician/contractor > supply house) and bought an MMJ crimper and a box of blanks. It set me back > seventy bucks, but I've gotten a *lot* of use out of it. Another source for the crimper and connectors is Altex Computers & Electronics. www.altex.com In last year's catalog Crimper - Stock no 60-3008, $38.59 Connectors - Stock no MP-6D, $31.00/hundred They also have adapter kits for MMJ to 9 and 25 pin D connectors for $4.50. A couple of the 9 pin adapter kits might come in handy. I assume, being a kit, that it comes with the D connector pins uninstalled so you can roll your own. I say handy because DEC's The H8571-B MMJ to DE9 (female) adapter is not wired correctly for a typical PC 9-pin serial port. I always have to hunt down one of my MMJ to DB25 adapters and then a 25 to 9 pin adapter. ----- In any event, I just recently updated a mini-FAQ on DEC's MMJ. So FWIW, here is a copy of it. Mike Info on the MMJ connector found on various DEC terminals & computers. --------------- --------------- --------------- --------------- --------------- DEC uses an MMJ (Modified Modular Jack) connector on its equipment for serial data communications. DEC calls the mating plug on the cable an MMP (Modified Modular Plug), only the term is not used as often and most of the time is just simply referred to as MMJ. It is like a modular telephone connector, only the key on the connector is offset, not in the center like a standard telco connector. Looking at the back of a VT320 for example the MMJ looks something like this. -------------------- | * * * * * * | -------------- -- |____| 1 2 3 4 5 6 are the pinout numbers --------------- --------------- --------------- --------------- --------------- The signals are: # I/0 Desc 1 > DTR Data Terminal Ready 2 > TXD Transmit Data 3 - TXD- (ie Gnd) 4 - RXD- (ie Gnd) 5 < RXD Receive Data 6 < DSR Data Set Ready > = terminal or computer output signal < = terminal or computer input signal --------------- --------------- --------------- --------------- --------------- DEC's part number for the cable is BC16E-xx, I assume the xx may be the length. The cable is made so that the connector on one end is mounted 'right side up' and the other end 'upside down'. In other words, the key tabs on the connector are on opposite sides of the flat cable. // ---- ---- | |---------------------------------------| | ---- ---- // That is effect causes the signal lines to cross-connect or as I like to say 'turn over' from one end to the other. MMJ port on DEC MMJ port on DEC VT320 terminal computer or DECserver DTR 1 --->-------------->----------------->--- 6 DSR TXD 2 --->-------------->----------------->--- 5 RXD 3 ---------------------------------------- 4 4 ---------------------------------------- 3 RXD 5 ---<--------------<-----------------<--- 2 TXD DSR 6 ---<--------------<-----------------<--- 1 DTR --------------- --------------- --------------- --------------- --------------- I had a DEC MMP cable that someone cut one end off so I wired it to a female 9-pin D connector to use with a PC 9-pin serial port. Wired as follows: MMJ DE9 1 6 2 2 3 5 4 5 5 3 6 4 This was to use a PC as the console on a DECsystem 5500 and/or one of the ports on a DECstation 3100. I actually did not connect DE9-6 to MMJ-1. It worked fine without it. I later made a breakout box with two 9 pin D connectors and an MMJ socket along with the means to disconnect and rewire as needed. I found that it works fine without DE9-4 being wired to MMJ-6. In other words, using only the two data lines and ground. Your mileage may vary, depending on how things are setup. --------------- --------------- --------------- --------------- --------------- DEC makes several adapters to adapt the MMJ to 9/25-pin D connectors. The H8571-A and H8575-A are MMJ to DB25 (female) and are wired as follows: MMJ DB25 1 20 2 2 3 7 4 7 5 3 6 6 & 8 Also pins 4 & 5 of the DB25 are tied together I have used the above using a standard DEC MMP cable to connect to a PC 25-pin serial port to use the PC as a terminal. --------------- The H8571-C and H8571-F are MMJ to DB25 (male) and are wired as follows: MMJ DB25 1 6 2 3 3 7 4 7 5 2 6 20 --------------- The H8571-B an MMJ to DE9 (female) and is supposedly wired as follows: MMJ DE9 1 5 2 2 3 7 4 7 5 3 6 6 & maybe 8 (depending on which DEC manual you read) I have never seen one, so have not actually checked how it is wired. It should be noted that this is not wired correctly for PC 9-pin serial ports, besides the gender of the 9-pin connector is wrong. DEC says that this is used for connecting to 9-pin printer ports. --------------- --------------- --------------- --------------- --------------- And here is a summary on how the various signal lines match up to each other on the different connectors. Term Term MMJ MMJ port on DEC DB25 DE9 computer or Decserver 20 4 1 --->-------------->----------------->--- 6 2 3 2 --->-------------->----------------->--- 5 7 5 3 ---------------------------------------- 4 7 5 4 ---------------------------------------- 3 3 2 5 ---<--------------<-----------------<--- 2 6 6 6 ---<--------------<-----------------<--- 1 --------------- --------------- --------------- --------------- --------------- From at258 at osfn.org Tue Oct 12 12:06:55 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: Tape drive help and/or part needed (Attention DEC-heads!) In-Reply-To: <13490875240.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: A LOT, we've got two of them resting on the first floor because the levator is broken and we haven't had enough people to boost them up the stairs. We'll be following this thread closely because we're slowly trying to get the SPI KS-10's going. On Tue, 12 Oct 1999, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > I forwarded that off to Chris, since it's his machine. > I don't know if he'd need the whole drive or not, but I bet shipping it > would be killer. > How much do those things weigh, anyway? > ------- > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk Tue Oct 12 10:35:57 1999 From: peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: Running a 220v computer in a 110v environment References: <199910120854.KAA25923@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: <000001bf14d5$301c16c0$3e43883e@proteus> Hi, > A fuse will never protect _you_ nor the device. It is only ment >to protect the house/the installation.... This I have to take issue with (though I'm probably quibbling over semantics?). The purpose of the fuse in the PLUG is to protect the power cable between the plug and the device from carrying an unsafe current in the event of a problem with that CABLE. The device itself should contain a second fuse which is there to protect the PSU in the event of a failure or overload. At least that's what we were taught when I did an electronics course a few years back. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk Tue Oct 12 10:42:59 1999 From: peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: Dangers of shifting classic computers (was: AT&T PC 6300 Plus Unix box) References: Message-ID: <000101bf14d5$310eb420$3e43883e@proteus> Hi Tony, > I once got an Apollo DN3500 at a radio rally. The system unit wasn't >too bad. The monitor nearly killed me, even just carrying it across >the car park IKWYM. I got the first of my pair of Apollos at the Drayton Rally a few years back. The machine (a DN3000) wasn't too bad, however the monitor was another matter....they're not exactly easy to carry when they're not caked in grass and mud in the only areas you can get a grip of.... > For large machines, if I have the chance, I dismantle them before moving. > Even just taking out PSUs and boards. The bits I end up with are still > heavy, but not _as_ heavy. Yeah, that's what the chap I got my SGI from did. It was difficult enough moving it in that state, I shudder to think how bad it would've been with all the boards and drives installed. BTW I collected an HP LaserJet+ the other day....took two of use to shift the thing because of how heavy it was and I managed to somehow damage my left arm in the process. Got a 1cm wide lump on my inner wrist. Never ends dose it?? :-) TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Oct 12 12:21:29 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: CDC 924 console in 'The Terminator' Message-ID: <19991012172129.27959.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Grigoni wrote: > > > On Tue, 12 Oct 1999, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > On Tue, 12 Oct 1999, Grigoni wrote: > > >A reasonbly good scan of the showcase photograph from a marketing brochure > > >for the CDC 924 can be found at: http://www.mtr.webconcept.de/image/ > > >computer/cdc/924.jpg > > > > Huh? You sure about that URL? I get a 404... > > I swear that last night the URL was good; today I get the same results. Your mail agent split the URL, so when people with HTML aware agents attempted to build a link, it doesn't include "computer/cdc/924.jpg". It happened to me, too. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk Tue Oct 12 10:51:44 1999 From: peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: What's the best RS-232 terminal? References: Message-ID: <000201bf14d5$31e8e780$3e43883e@proteus> Hi Tony, > Rubbish!. Not that they've been banned, but that they give out >significant amounts of X-rays. Well, both the college and factory I've worked at over the last three years had received communications from Health and Safety to the effect that these terminals should not be used. That's why I said "banned" rather than banned, IYSWIM? > I would love to know what measurements were actually made, and under >what conditions.... Me too, I never saw the original "memo". All I was told was that the terminals were being taken out of service and broken up - they wouldn't let me rescue them either. :-( Annoying as I've always wanted a 60. > Well, check the final anode voltage (with an EHT meter). Check the beam >current (if you can). And only then start worrying. I don't have an EHT probe for either my meter or 'scope, perhaps it's time I got one.... TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From donm at cts.com Tue Oct 12 12:36:45 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: Floppy disks again In-Reply-To: <199910120735.DAA20413@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Oct 1999, Bill Yakowenko wrote: > Okay, one final question before I drop this topic > forever (or until tomorrow, whichever comes first). > > How is it possible that DD media could be of such > poor quality that it can't (reliably?) do 96 TPI, > while still being just fine at 48 TPI? Of my own experience, I do not believe that it is. I regularly use generic unformatted 5.25" DD disks at 96tpi without problem. - don > I mean, it is recording something like 3000 bits per > inch along each track, right? How could that same > media not have enough resolution to keep the bits of > adjacent tracks separate at less than 100 per inch? > Can somebody who believes this can happen give me a > mental model of what is going on there? I mean, in > terms of physics or geometry or mechanics or anything > measurable and specific. > > It sounds to me like it must be the drive, and not > the media, that limits the number of tracks to > anything below 1500 TPI. > > Thanks, > Bill. > > From peter at joules0.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 12 12:54:38 1999 From: peter at joules0.demon.co.uk (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: Dangers of shifting classic computers (was: AT&T PC 6300 Plus Unix box) In-Reply-To: <004501bf10e4$3b4aa9c0$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> References: <004501bf10e4$3b4aa9c0$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> Message-ID: In article <004501bf10e4$3b4aa9c0$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca>, daniel writes >That night I got >dizzy, headaches, threw up.. The next morning huge sores were in my mouth, >throat, tubes, etc... By about noon the next day I was in the hospital. I >had close direct exposure to the chemical without any ventilation. The >doctior did say a couple more minutes of use and I would have dies as it >would have scarred my lungs. Sounds like an isocyanate based solvent in the adhesive, IIRC that does that sort of damage whereas cyanides are simple respiratory poisins like CO and paraquat. I once used some paint to respray a car which was isocyanate based, the instructions said that it should not be used without an air-line respirator. -- Regards Pete From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Oct 12 12:58:43 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: Needed / Available In-Reply-To: <003201bf14c8$d914d8a0$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Message-ID: >Well . . . what I meant was the monitors. That's what he's asking $75 for >and without the Appollo stations they're of little use, being fixed >frequency types. If he asked $25 for them they'd still be difficult to >move. Depends on the locale. Here in SoCal we have a LOT of these workstation monitors turning up and a few places have even brought in a tech to modify a batch for use on a PC and sold them at a higher price. I don't see the standard units as a bargain even at $25, unless you NEED one. They are OLD, BIG, HEAVY, and generally support only a single (low in modern terms) resolution. At $75 IMHO he is looking for suckers, people that don't know what the monitor is, or what is required for its use, and are lured into purchase by what they think is a low price for a BIG color monitor. So maybe he sells one or two at that price, and each of those customers then tell ten friends about getting ripped off at so and so's place. Great business plan. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Oct 12 14:23:38 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: Running a 220v computer in a 110v environment In-Reply-To: <000001bf14d5$301c16c0$3e43883e@proteus> Message-ID: <199910121824.UAA13179@horus.mch.sni.de> > > A fuse will never protect _you_ nor the device. It is only ment > >to protect the house/the installation.... > This I have to take issue with (though I'm probably quibbling over > semantics?). Well, somehow yes - it is maybe about what protection means. > The purpose of the fuse in the PLUG is to protect the power cable between the > plug and the device from carrying an unsafe current in the event of a problem > with that CABLE. Well, not protecting the cable - it's about protecting the environment from damage a cable may caus - the fuse should prevent that a cable (whereever it is installed - this is the same for household fuses as for 'in-plug' fuses) gets to hot and maybe ignit a fire, damaging your house. Basicly, if looking at a cable, this also means keep it in good condition. > The device itself should contain a second fuse which is there to protect the > PSU in the event of a failure or overload. Again, not protecting the PSU from damage (A damage did, in most cases, already occure if the fuse is blown), but rather the environment from possible negative effects of a malfunctioning PSU. > At least that's what we were taught when I did an electronics course a few > years back. Well, I did 3 years training on electronics (didn't we all had a _real_ job before going into the computer business :). Of course my knowledge was primary targeted on German rules, we had to take lessons on foreing codes, since we had to build and/or maintain stuff internationaly. Also, at least within Europe, the codes are unified. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Oct 12 13:55:12 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: Needed / Available In-Reply-To: <003201bf14c8$d914d8a0$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> from Richard Erlacher at "Oct 12, 1999 9:45:43 am" Message-ID: <199910121855.OAA25388@pechter.dyndns.org> > Well . . . what I meant was the monitors. That's what he's asking $75 for > and without the Appollo stations they're of little use, being fixed > frequency types. If he asked $25 for them they'd still be difficult to > move. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Ford > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Tuesday, October 12, 1999 12:45 AM > Subject: Re: Needed / Available > > > >>There's a local surplus guy who's got about a half dozen Appollo stations > >>with the HP label on them and with HP monitors which he's trying to sell > for > >>$75. I doubt he'll sell even one. > > > >Sad fact is that they are often worth more scrapped than running. Hell, I'd like to have an HP-UX box and so would one of my friends. The main problem is before I drop $$$ sight unseen I need to have a valid hardware configuration (which most scrappers can't give). Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Oct 12 15:13:59 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: Sources for DEC Software Message-ID: <991012161359.236000cc@trailing-edge.com> >Does anyone know of any sources for old DEC software. Specifically, >RT11 for the PDP-11 series? RT-11, the operating system, is still a commercial product. You can buy a copy from Mentec, which is still actively developing RT-11 and RSX-11M/M+ --- see http://www.mentec.com/ If you're looking for freeware to run under RT-11 or RSX-11, check out http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/ specifically, the rt/decus and rsx/decus subdirectories, where you'll find gigabytes of PDP-11 freeware. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Oct 12 15:29:33 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: Sources for DEC Software In-Reply-To: <19991012191538953.AAA315@mail.bee.net@smtp.bee.net> from "Randy M.Kaplan" at Oct 12, 99 12:16:59 pm Message-ID: <199910122029.NAA14837@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 255 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991012/34b9c181/attachment.ksh From msg at computerpro.com Tue Oct 12 15:36:16 1999 From: msg at computerpro.com (Grigoni) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: CDC 924 console in 'The Terminator' (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 15:35:05 -0500 (CDT) From: Grigoni To: John Dykstra Subject: RE: CDC 924 console in 'The Terminator' On Tue, 12 Oct 1999, John Dykstra wrote: > On Monday, October 11, 1999 11:05 PM, Grigoni [SMTP:msg@computerpro.com] > wrote: > > A reasonbly good scan of the showcase photograph from a marketing brochure > > for the CDC 924 can be found at: http://www.mtr.webconcept.de/image/ > > computer/cdc/924.jpg > > The correct URL is . > > Michael, when was this machine marketed? The tape drives in the photo look > like 607's, and the chassis is similar to a 6000-series machine. They seem to be pre-corporate-switch 606s, eg. 606A or B. However, the machine (like the 1604) was originally marketed with Ampex tapedrives, generally the vacuum-column versions although the torsion-arm versions were also used (the model numbers escape me at the moment, but in the case of the 1604 I believe the 4-drive chassis was the 1605). This photo is of a newer configuration, probably circa 1963. I remember some indications that the 1604 and 924 were prototyped in 58-59 and the 1604 first delivered to the Navy in 1960. Our 160 reference manual (first printing with the blue/white color scheme) is dated 1959. Michael Grigoni Cybertheque Museum > > It's amusing to note that the teletypewriter in the photo is an IBM model. > CDC made some pretty good peripherals, but they didn't try to out-do IBM in > this arena. > > -- John > From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 12 15:49:30 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: CDC 924 console in 'The Terminator' (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991012154930.00d05870@vpwisfirewall> There's a desk-sized punched-card device in "Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory" marked "Siemens 4004" that impersonates a computer. This movie was filmed in Munich in the early 70s. - John From edick at idcomm.com Tue Oct 12 16:01:37 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: Needed / Available Message-ID: <000e01bf14f5$13ee7180$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> I'm inclined to agree with you about this matter, except that there's a company in SD or MT or somewhere thereabouts which has apparent'y persuaded him that if he sells one of their boards with his monitors it's worth many hundreds of dollars. That's no longer the case, since you can buy a VERY decent 20" monitor at the local computer house for <$400. . .not MUCH less, but less, just the same. Those guys in the northern prairie were once offering a board for about $400 and that might have been a bargain if you HAD to have the large format and the market would then bear a price of $1100 for a 16" NEC Multisync 4D or $2200 for a 19" Multisync 5D. Those days are behind us, though, and I don't miss 'em. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Mike Ford To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, October 12, 1999 12:12 PM Subject: Re: Needed / Available >>Well . . . what I meant was the monitors. That's what he's asking $75 for >>and without the Appollo stations they're of little use, being fixed >>frequency types. If he asked $25 for them they'd still be difficult to >>move. > >Depends on the locale. Here in SoCal we have a LOT of these workstation >monitors turning up and a few places have even brought in a tech to modify >a batch for use on a PC and sold them at a higher price. I don't see the >standard units as a bargain even at $25, unless you NEED one. They are OLD, >BIG, HEAVY, and generally support only a single (low in modern terms) >resolution. > >At $75 IMHO he is looking for suckers, people that don't know what the >monitor is, or what is required for its use, and are lured into purchase by >what they think is a low price for a BIG color monitor. So maybe he sells >one or two at that price, and each of those customers then tell ten friends >about getting ripped off at so and so's place. Great business plan. > > From red at bears.org Tue Oct 12 16:24:09 1999 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: aperiodic announcement In-Reply-To: <199910120644.CAA20214@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Oct 1999, Bill Yakowenko wrote: > For those of you on that list, maybe this is a good time to > check that your entry is up-to-date, and let me know if it > is not. Hullo Bill. My entry could use a bit of updating, actually. Please remove the voice mail number, and update the phone number entry to read (206)423-1147. Thanks! ok r. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 12 16:22:09 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: Tape drive help and/or part needed (Attention DEC-heads!) In-Reply-To: <13490857829.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> References: <13490857829.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <19991012212209.16601.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Chris Zach (cz@alembic.crystel.com) has the MIT-AI KS10, and wants to run > ITS on it, but his tape drive (A TU77) is screwed up. It generates a > FORMATTER ERROR in the Status register whenever it's on. > He has booted from drives on the same Massbus so that's OK. Well, you've explained one problem already. You're not supposed to put disk drives and tape drives on the same Massbus. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 12 16:24:20 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: Floppy disks again In-Reply-To: (allisonp@world.std.com) References: Message-ID: <19991012212420.16621.qmail@brouhaha.com> Allison wrote: > There are two media for 96tpi, one for DD and lower and is the SAME > magnetic material as 48tpi. THere is also the 1.2mb media and this is > VERY DIFFERENT and incompatable with any other drive or density. Not quite. The "1.2mb" media is compatible with Apple Twiggy diskette drives, though the jacket cutouts are different. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 12 16:25:56 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: Sources for DEC Software In-Reply-To: <19991012191538953.AAA315@mail.bee.net@smtp.bee.net> (rkaplan@accsys-corp.com) References: <19991012191538953.AAA315@mail.bee.net@smtp.bee.net> Message-ID: <19991012212556.16648.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Does anyone know of any sources for old DEC software. Specifically, RT11 for > the PDP-11 series? www.mentec.com From a2k at one.net Tue Oct 12 16:55:37 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: CRT Radiation, was Re: What's the best RS-232 terminal? In-Reply-To: <38025902.3EBA3713@rain.org> Message-ID: > >From what I understand, the problem (besides hysterics) comes about when > people spend a great deal of time in front of the monitor. Anyone know what > the problem is, and what are the harmful effects? > Oh yes, I can relate.. you get seriously addicted to UN*X operating systems and comsume large amounts of tea / coffee / moutain dew / coke / etc. You rarely see your family/friends/office and your pets tend to get quite cross-legged. You learn to keep your eyelids open with toothpicks.. you get the idea... Kevin Johnny was chemist But now he is no more What he thought was H2O Was H2SO4 (sulfuric acid). From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue Oct 12 17:27:43 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: DEC Module Edge Connectors In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19991008082247.03016574@ferrari.sfu.ca> from Kevin McQuiggin at "Oct 8, 1999 08:22:47 am" Message-ID: <199910122227.WAA19183@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Hmm, the DEC connectors are still available, but kind of expensive. Some places want $60 each! I found 2 places that will sell them for $20 each, but that is still somewhat expensive. -Lawrence LeMay > > At 03:16 AM 99/10/08 GMT, you wrote: > >Sure, if you can dig up teh name of the place that had those wierd connectors > >for the PDP8/e, i would be interested in seeing if i could still > >obtain some. > > The place is: > > Gateway Electronics Inc. > 9222 Chesapeake Drive, > San Diego, California 92123 > (619) 279-6802; Fax (619) 279-7294 > > They were $2 each. You want 36 pin double sided 0.125" spacing card edge > connectors. These are, of course, two rows of 18 pins each. > > --- > Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD > mcquiggi@sfu.ca > From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Oct 12 18:09:52 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: Tape drive help and/or part needed (Attention DEC-heads!) In-Reply-To: <19991012212209.16601.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <13490969689.14.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Can't put tapes and disks on the same Massbus] Okay, I'm now officially confused by this whole Massbus thing. I'll explain how I thought it worked, and you all tell me where I'm wrong. The RH10 is a disk controller. It has one massbus coming out of it. Disks and tapes can plug into the Massbus - Just not both at the same time. I don't know why. In order to talk to the RH10, which is the massbus disk controller, you need a DF10 in front of it (Or were there other channel interfaces?). A DF10 is a small processor that knows how to read from the RH10 and write to memory. It's a DMA controller. (Can it talk to more than one thing at a time? Does it have it's own bus?) The massbus was 3 cables - 2 data cables and a control cable. They talk between the drives and had a decent bandwidth. All of the transfers on the massbus are either data moving between the controller and the drives, (Stuff from the registers on the drives), or data moving between the controller and the DF10. (Data being read from the disks.) The DF10 then plunks the data into memory and alerts the RH10 when it's done. The RH10 then PIs the processor (if enabled) and sets its DONE bit and such. ------- From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue Oct 12 18:23:46 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: Stuff thats available Message-ID: <199910122323.XAA19334@thorin.cs.umn.edu> I just saw a IBM data display terminal, model 4978 if I recall correctly (not 100% sure about that 9 anymore). Is this something I should grab? The keyboard is, well, I would describe it as 'similar' to a original Sun 1 keyboard, but no-one else knows what that looks like. the keyboard is in a thick iron case, somewhat triangular, if that description jogs anyones mind. On another note, does anyone want to trade something for a Hayes Smartmodem external, with an original box? If I didnt have an original box, and I wasnt already posting to the list, I wouldnt bother mentioning this, but I know some people go crazy for original boxes. Frankly I think thats crazy, but a person who is restoring a PDP8/e is probably the last person to throw stones... And, last but surely not least... I found a company that has a PDP8/f for sale. They want $600 for it. -Lawrence LeMay From reif at magicnet.net Tue Oct 12 20:00:09 1999 From: reif at magicnet.net (Robert Reif) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: MicroVAX 2000 questions. Message-ID: <3803D998.760A6B6C@magicnet.net> I just rescued two MicroVAX 2000s from the local scrap yard and I'm trying to get them working. I'm getting the following output on a VT330 I have hooked up to the 9 pin serial port: KA410-A V2.3 F_..E...D...C...B...A...9...8...7...6...5...4_..3_..2_..1?.. ? E 0040 0000.0005 ? C 0080 0000.4001 ? 6 00A0 0000.4001 ?? 1 00C0 0011.700E >>> I searched the web and found that E means low battery and C means terminal problem. I couldn't find any reference to the other errors. Does anyone have a link to a web site with a full description of the error messages for this machine? Trying to run a test from the >>> prompt doesn't work either. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Bob. From vaxman at uswest.net Tue Oct 12 19:55:45 1999 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: Floppy disks again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Oct 1999 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > Ok, so 48 TPI media has low coercivity, so a 96TPI head with higher > > write current will cause the adjacent tracks to erase because of > > the magnet fringes from the head. These magnetic fringes aren't > > strong enough to effect 96TPI media because it has a higher > > coercivity. > > ???? reread that and see if it makes sense to you... > Ok, so not as much as at 7:00 this morning... HD media has a higher coercivity, thus requires more write current to put a bit on the disk. If you use that much write current with LD media (lower coercivity) you will get a larger bit. The larger bit will partially overwrite adjacent bits, leading to low amplitude, and read errors. > There are two media for 96tpi, one for DD and lower and is the SAME > magnetic material as 48tpi. THere is also the 1.2mb media and this is > VERY DIFFERENT and incompatable with any other drive or density. > > So if we ignore 1.2mb media and the oddbal spindle speeds and data rates > that go with it we come down to one media (softs sector) and 6 different > drives over the years. They are: > > 48tpi single sided (sa400) > 48tpi double sided (sa450) > 96tpi single sided (teac Fd55E or DEC RX50) > 96tpi double sided (teac FD55F) > 100tpi single and double sided models (micropolis I think) > Ok, I wasn't aware of any 96tpi drives except the HD ones... Were they ever used in the PC marketplace, or was it mostly a DEC thing? After re-reading my uVAX manual about the RX50, I agree it is a 96tpi single sided drive, though the manual says: "Use only formatted RX50 diskettes, available from DIGITAL or its licensed distributors" So there are four drives using the same media: SSDD 180K,48tpi,40tracks/side DSDD 360K,48tpi,40tracks/side RX50 360K,96tpi,80tracks/side ???? 720K,96tpi,80tracks/side - What was (is) this called? DSQD? And the HD drive: DSHD 1.2M,96tpi,80tracks/side - can read older media, but writing is unreliable (head isn't wide enough to erase the whole old track) If Bill indeed has DSDD media, bulk erasing the media before applying it to the 96tpi (non-HD) drive should work fine. This erases the old data from between the new (half as wide) tracks, so it doesn't interfere with reading. > > Allison > clint From daniel at internet.look.ca Tue Oct 12 20:02:32 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:50 2005 Subject: PDP 8/s and I have a CTS-11J available Message-ID: <00eb01bf1516$a1c6fe20$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> The PDP 8/s is now completely running. It ran for over 10 hours (today and yesterday) with no bugs - not flaky! yes. The high speed reader is *finally* aligned and working well. The 8/s is running all kinds of MAINDEC programs today before the real "binary loader" is run. BTW: The PDP 8/S CPU has 1001 transistors in it (999 if you don't include the two transistors on the core stack) A few things amaze me about this machine. First, the signals are so *clean* on the scope - No noise or rounded/poor waveforms I am use to seeing on TTL units (slower switching rate obviously). Second is the PC0 paper tape drive. DEC managed to get 300 cps through this unit by merely strobing the data off the optical sensors DIRECTLY onto the negibus (no flip flops!)... A real fun treat to align as the punched holes have to appear directly over the sensors half way through the feed. Weirdest thing I have ever seen. The D/A converter is working well and the A/D unit has also been tested. I am hooking up an ASR 33 to it tomorrow so I can start running some *serious* programs on it. Core memory and power supplies have been tuned. I am going to put up a website for it by the end of the week with pictures of this unit. Hopefully a telnet/camera link to it by the end of the month. In total it had: One bad connection on the W108 board (near core - caused from heat) One bad connection on SY R133 board - 2 hours to find that problem - serial everything.. ugghh..(again, near core - heat) One bad transistor on a 302 triple flip flop (my fault, I was actually tired enough to try a spare module...not the way to fix this machine) Alignment on the reader was out by a hair to cause poor data. about 10 hours reading/ 10 hours working hand on. I would like to thank the folks in this group who gave me advice about their experiences with transistor computers which saved me many hours of work and helped to make sure this unit would not be buggy. ----- I am trimming my collection to focus on the real pieces I want to collect. I have a CTS11-J backplane and cards for anyone here who wants to trade anything for it or just plainly really needs it. I also have an H213 core stack if anyone would like to trade some broken/not broken R XXX series flip chips for it. I am going back into storage over the next couple of weeks and should have quite a bit of stuff to find good homes both here and on Ebay. john From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Oct 12 20:11:29 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: Floppy disks again Message-ID: <991012211129.236000e5@trailing-edge.com> >Ok, so not as much as at 7:00 this morning... HD media has a higher >coercivity, thus requires more write current to put a bit on the >disk. If you use that much write current with LD media (lower >coercivity) you will get a larger bit. The larger bit will partially >overwrite adjacent bits, leading to low amplitude, and read errors. The "bit" size has more to do with the gap and physical construction of the head, as I remember from my magnetics courses. Yes, the current is obviously interrelated, but the primary factor is the head gap. >Ok, I wasn't aware of any 96tpi drives except the HD ones... Were >they ever used in the PC marketplace, or was it mostly a DEC thing? Yes, there were a few not-quite-100%-PC-compatible clones that used DD media at 96 TPI. There were even 100 TPI drives, just to be incompatible with nearly everybody! (Well, they also eked out a bit more capacity from the same media, which was a selling point when few had hard drives.) >After re-reading my uVAX manual about the RX50, I agree it is a >96tpi single sided drive, though the manual says: "Use only formatted >RX50 diskettes, available from DIGITAL or its licensed distributors" > >So there are four drives using the same media: >SSDD 180K,48tpi,40tracks/side >DSDD 360K,48tpi,40tracks/side >RX50 360K,96tpi,80tracks/side >???? 720K,96tpi,80tracks/side - What was (is) this called? DSQD? Some aftermarket third-party DEC-compatible controllers have a double-sided RX50 mode that they call "RX52". -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From west at tseinc.com Tue Oct 12 20:01:42 1999 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: PDP-11/44 assistance.... Message-ID: <00f301bf1516$83de21e0$0101a8c0@jay> Tony had asked about what chips were in the standard memories board that I posted about.... It is Standard Memories MM-144. Unibus: there's two rows of 20 ram chips each, and underneath that is two rows of 20 empty sockets each. Underneath that is two rows of 19 ram chips each, and underneath it is two rows of 19 empty sockets each. So, (2x20)+(2x19)=78 chips total. The chips are all OKI M3764-20RS. On the right side of the board on the top are three LED's designated +5B, RUN, and U.ERR. Underneath that is a 14 pin DIP jumper pad, and two 8 switch DIPS. Any ideas on how much memory this is and would anyone happen to have docs on this board? Also, I think my previous post about the modules in the 44 wasn't listed correctly. The slots are filled as follows: 1 A-B M7090 CIM 4 A-F M7094 5 A-F M7095 6 A-F M7096 7 A-F M7097 8 A-F M7098 10 A-F MM-144 (see above) 14 A-B first half of M9202 15 A-B 2nd half of M9202 16 D G727A 23 M9302 I found it odd (to my very uninformed mind) that the G727A was stock in slot 16 D with nothing else around it. If I don't want to hook anything up to this system other than a serial console for now, how should I move the above cards around to prevent continuity problems??? Thanks in advance! Jay West From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 12 20:44:54 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: Floppy disks again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Oct 1999, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: > Ok, I wasn't aware of any 96tpi drives except the HD ones... Were > they ever used in the PC marketplace, or was it mostly a DEC thing? http://www.xenosoft.com/fmts.html#720K will give you a list of some of them. > If Bill indeed has DSDD media, bulk erasing the media before applying > it to the 96tpi (non-HD) drive should work fine. This erases the old > data from between the new (half as wide) tracks, so it doesn't > interfere with reading. That seems to be working for almost everyone except Tony! -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 12 20:55:22 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: Floppy disks again Message-ID: <199910130155.VAA25718@world.std.com> There are two media for 96tpi, one for DD and lower and is the SAME <> magnetic material as 48tpi. THere is also the 1.2mb media and this is <> VERY DIFFERENT and incompatable with any other drive or density. < Fred Cisin wrote: >http://www.xenosoft.com/fmts.html#720K >will give you a list of some of them. Wow, an impressive list of formats. I'm disappointed that I don't see the grandaddy of them all - IBM 3740 - explicitly listed, though! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue Oct 12 21:13:49 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: pdp8/f Message-ID: <199910130213.VAA07907@thufir.cs.umn.edu> OK, the PDP8/f is in California. As i mentioned before they want $600 for it. This is what it contains: > 1 M8330 > 1 M8310 > 1 M8300 > 1 M837 > 1 M848 > 5 M1709 > 2 M8655 (NOT THE TWO LISTED BELOW) > 1 M849 > 1 M8320 > AND 1 DATARAM DR118 CORE MEMORY I'm still dealing with them over the PDP8 boards I want to buy, which is why i'm hesitant to mention the company at the moment. -Lawrence LeMay From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Oct 12 21:34:17 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: Floppy disks again In-Reply-To: <199910130155.VAA25718@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991012223417.00a21100@mail.30below.com> On or about 09:55 PM 10/12/99 -0400, Allison J Parent was caught in a dark alley speaking these words: >there were plenty of "odd" disk drives and media out there like the >Amstrand 3" and the really old sony 3.5". Don't forget the even odder ones, like Tandy's 2.8", or Zenith's 2.0" 720K disks... I think those 2" disks were higher than 135TPI, I think they were close to 200, but the exact number escapes me... Oh, if anyone has one of those Amstrad drives for sale... I remember drooling over those when I was young... I have the ad's in some of my old HotCoCo's (I have the premiere issue around somewhere...) maybe if I get a chance, I'll scan one in... Ah well, back to work. Certainly OT, but I have to go sell some Orb drives before my wife kicks me in the bum... ;-) Take care, Roger "Merch" Merchberger ===== Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- zmerch@30below.com SysAdmin - Iceberg Computers ===== Merch's Wild Wisdom of the Moment: ===== Sometimes you know, you just don't know sometimes, you know? From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Oct 12 21:54:12 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: pdp8/f In-Reply-To: <199910130213.VAA07907@thufir.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991012195205.00afdc90@mcmanis.com> Having already inspected and turned down this junker be it known that the system doesn't work. I wasn't able to isolate the problem to the front panel or the CPU but the boards didn't work. The 8/E chassis that went for around $400 on Ebay was a better deal. Consider Keyways for PDP-8 boards as well. I told Easy that the 8/f wasn't worth more than two or three hundred tops. --Chuck At 09:13 PM 10/12/99 -0500, you wrote: >OK, the PDP8/f is in California. As i mentioned before they want $600 >for it. This is what it contains: > > > 1 M8330 > > 1 M8310 > > 1 M8300 > > 1 M837 > > 1 M848 > > 5 M1709 > > 2 M8655 (NOT THE TWO LISTED BELOW) > > 1 M849 > > 1 M8320 > > AND 1 DATARAM DR118 CORE MEMORY > >I'm still dealing with them over the PDP8 boards I want to buy, which is >why i'm hesitant to mention the company at the moment. > >-Lawrence LeMay From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 12 21:35:49 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: Floppy disks again In-Reply-To: <199910130155.VAA25718@world.std.com> (message from Allison J Parent on Tue, 12 Oct 1999 21:55:22 -0400 (EDT)) References: <199910130155.VAA25718@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19991013023549.19428.qmail@brouhaha.com> > I consider Apple disks and disk systems to be generally unique to > themselves. Actually the Twiggy was their only floppy drive that required any special diskettes. From daniel at internet.look.ca Tue Oct 12 21:50:47 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: pdp8/f Message-ID: <013401bf1525$c1641c40$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> -----Original Message----- From: Chuck McManis To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, October 12, 1999 10:51 PM Subject: Re: pdp8/f >Having already inspected and turned down this junker be it known that the >system doesn't work. I wasn't able to isolate the problem to the front >panel or the CPU but the boards didn't work. The 8/E chassis that went for >around $400 on Ebay was a better deal. Consider Keyways for PDP-8 boards as >well. I told Easy that the 8/f wasn't worth more than two or three hundred >tops. That 8/e chasis went for $1300 this morning! > >--Chuck > >At 09:13 PM 10/12/99 -0500, you wrote: >>OK, the PDP8/f is in California. As i mentioned before they want $600 >>for it. This is what it contains: >> >> > 1 M8330 >> > 1 M8310 >> > 1 M8300 >> > 1 M837 >> > 1 M848 >> > 5 M1709 >> > 2 M8655 (NOT THE TWO LISTED BELOW) >> > 1 M849 >> > 1 M8320 >> > AND 1 DATARAM DR118 CORE MEMORY >> >>I'm still dealing with them over the PDP8 boards I want to buy, which is >>why i'm hesitant to mention the company at the moment. >> >>-Lawrence LeMay > > From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 12 21:38:16 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: Floppy disks again In-Reply-To: <991012215807.236000e5@trailing-edge.com> (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) References: <991012215807.236000e5@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <19991013023816.19456.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tim wrote: > Wow, an impressive list of formats. I'm disappointed that I don't > see the grandaddy of them all - IBM 3740 - explicitly listed, though! The 3740? That's the newcomer in the 8" diskette world. The granddaddy is the Igar. Hard-sectored, with the sector/index holes near the edge of the disk instead of near the spindle. Used on IBM 370s, early 3270 controllers, etc. for microcode loading. And after the Igar, there was still a single density format that was around for a few years before those newfangled 3740s hit the scene. :-) From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 12 22:20:41 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: MicroVAX 2000 questions. Message-ID: <199910130320.XAA13807@world.std.com> < >> No disk? or not bootable. Also, the 3100 is a superset of the Vs2000 so any info on that also applies generally. Check here: http://www.netbsd.org/Library/Hardware/Machines/DEC/vax/index.html >> prompt doesn't work either. T 50 doesnt work? Allison PS: copy of an old message from tim on tests. From: Tim Shoppa Message-Id: <9805241840.AA08441@alph01.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: VS2000 tests and other oddities? > I was poking around for various test numbers and letters on a VS2000 when > I came across the most interesting test 90. It obviously has to do with > stats on the ethernet device, but is there anything else it does? > > I knew about test 70 being an MFM disk formatter, but what's test 71? > > test 70 gives "KA410-A RDRXfmt" > test 71 gives "KA410-A RDver" > > Then tests 51, 52, and 53 seem to do more than your average bogus test > which results in "?17 ILL CMD" but at the same time it's not obvious to me > what it actually is that they do (if anything). What I reproduce below is from an old DEC SPD on the built-in diagnostics; I hope it helps. Somewhere here I have the DEC part number for the "Hardware key" used to enable the less-well-known packages. PRODUCT NAME: MicroVAX 2000/VAXstation 2000 Diagnostic Package TEST 0 - Invokes the customer runnable system excerciser. This test executes a serial string test of all devices in the system. After serial device testing has completed, a concurrent device test is executed. The test automatically configures the test based on the system's hardware configuration and will test all devices present. This test runs for two test passes and concludes with a summary table of test results. TEST 50 - A utility that displays the hardware configuration of the system. It displays a listing of all functionality present along with status of each device on the last diagnostic executed. Additionally, this display identifies the current revision of firmware in the system as well as the system I.D. number (used as the system's hardware address when networked). TEST 51 - Allows the user to define a default boot device for automatic bootstrapping of the system. TEST 52 - Allows the user to set default boot flags to be used by the operating system during boot operations. TEST 53 - Allows the user to set default recovery action flags used by the system during power up and also used by the system if an error is detected with the operating environment. TEST 54 - Displays a language inquiry menu on the console device (VAXstation 2000 only) to allow the customer to select the appropriate keyboard type based on the country keyboard in use. On MicroVAX 2000, this function is accomplished through the language set-up utility that is part of the console terminal. TEST 61 - Sends a full screen of E's to the console monitor display (VAXstation 2000 only) allowing a quick check of the monitor's linearity adjustments. TEST 62 - Sends a full white screen to the console monitor display (VAXstation 2000 only) allowing a quick check of the monitor's raster as well as a check of the video controller's display memory. TEST 70 - Allows the customer to format hard disk drives and RX33 floppy diskettes. RX50 diskettes need not use this utility as they come pre-formatted. If formatting a non-Digital Equipment Corporation hard disk drive, this utility goes into a query mode thus allowing the customer to enter drive parameter data prior to actually performing the format operation. Note: Formatting destroys all user data on the disk or diskette being formatted. TEST 71 - A disk verifier utility. This utility does a non-destructive test of hard disk formats to search for new bad blocks on the media since operating system installation and identifies any new bad blocks to the customer. This utility is for use with hard disks only. TEST 90 - A utility that is used with systems that are connected in a network configuration. This utility, when invoked, puts the system in a test mode to provide loopback and system I.D. support to network level diagnostics run from a host or boot node. Working in combination with network level excercisers, this utility assists in verifying the system's network hardware/firmware interface is correctly functioning. TEST 80000050 - A utility that displays all system firmware revision levels by function (i.e. self test, bootstrap code, console code, etc.). Part III - Extended Diagnostics/Maintenance Utilities for Digital Equipment Corporation Field Service Personnel and Licensed Customers This section describes diagnostic functionality that is proprietary to the Digital Equipment Corporation Field Service and Support organizations. This series of routines require the use of a special hardware key to invoke and execute. TEST 60 - A utility that displays a circle/crosshatch pattern on the console monitor (VAXstation 2000 only). It is used by service personnel to check/adjust monitor linearity and aspect ratio. TEST 72 - A utility that writes a special key on scratch floppy diskettes. After running a floppy diskette through this utility, the diskette can then be used with the Field Service system excerciser to do write testing of the floppy diskette subsystem. Floppy diskettes used with the system excerciser that do not have this special key written on the media will do a read test only. TEST 73 - A utility that writes a special key on a scratch TK50 COMPACTape. After running the COMPACTape through this utility, the cartridge can then be used with the Field Service system excerciser to do write testing of the TK50 subsystem. Cartridges used with the system excerciser that do not have this special key written on the media will do a read test only. TEST 101 - Executes the Field Service mode system excerciser. This test excercises each device once sequentially and then excercises all devices concurrently. This sequence is executed for two complete passes of all system devices present in the configuration. Loopback connectors and test media are required to optimize test coverage with this routine. This test automatically stops after two complete passes and displays a test summary. TEST 102 - Executes the Field Service mode system excerciser. It excercises all devices in the system configuration in the same sequence as described for Test 101. However, when Test 102 is invoked, the sequence is repeated continuously until the user types CONTROL/C at the system console. When CONTROL/C is typed, the test terminates at the conclusion of the current test pass and displays a test summary. Note that the user must allow this test to run for at least two complete passes before typing CONTROL/C. TEST 80000106 - Allows the Field Service Engineer to select individual device tests from the total test used in Test 102 described above. Whichever device tests are enabled and executed run in a continuous loop until CONTROL/C is typed at the system console. As with Test 102, the user must allow this test run for at least two complete passes before typing CONTROL/C. Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) and more info... The Seven Sages Project has moved the mirror of the Vax Archive. It will no longer work if you go to http://www.sevensages.org/vax/. You must now go to http://vaxarchive.sevensages.org/ instead. If enough people complain, I'll shorten that to vax.sevensages.org. Also, I'll also have apache point from /vax/ to the new site. Regards, John Havard Head Geek The Seven Sages Project From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 12 22:20:54 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: Floppy disks again Message-ID: <199910130320.XAA13945@world.std.com> <> 48tpi single sided (sa400) <> 48tpi double sided (sa450) <> 96tpi single sided (teac Fd55E or DEC RX50) <> 96tpi double sided (teac FD55F) <> 100tpi single and double sided models (micropolis I think) <> < RX180 RX50 (vms, POS, RT11, Rainbow, RSX, Netbsd, XXDP, OS8, WPS filesystems) RX33 (dec 1.2m for Vaxmate and Later vaxen) Ti99/4 (40tr SSSD) H89 softsector Kaypro (SSDD, DSDD, DSQD advent turborom format) Ampro 48tpi and 96tpi CPM And a box of misc mongrul formats. Those are the ones in active use here. I've endevored to reduce the number of formats to those. PCs I unilaterally have discontinued active 5.25 media use as it's inconsistant at best and 3.5" is supported in most I use (I have one system that can do 360, 1.2 or ?? if need be). Allison From mbg at world.std.com Tue Oct 12 22:23:11 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: Tape drive help and/or part needed (Attention DEC-heads!) Message-ID: <199910130323.XAA14906@world.std.com> >I either need to find someone who knows what they're doing with a TU77, >or someone who has and can get rid of a TM03 formatter for a TU77 with >the special 18-bit card. Earlier this year, a team of people rescued a couple (three) KS10 systems along with RP06s and TU77s... the TU77s were confirmed to have the mentioned board... >Chris Zach (cz@alembic.crystel.com) has the MIT-AI KS10, and wants to run >ITS on it, but his tape drive (A TU77) is screwed up. It generates a >FORMATTER ERROR in the Status register whenever it's on. >He has booted from drives on the same Massbus so that's OK. Before I offer the board we have (on loan only, of course), I would have to talk with the others at the Rhode Island Computer Museum, but I would also have to confirm with you (and him) that the board that was in his tape drives did not go bad due to something else. I'd hate to see a known good board used in place of a bad one, only to have it go bad because the underlying problem has not been corrected. So... why is his board bad? Age? Or did something else go bad and take it for a ride? If the latter, has the problem been fixed (for sure)? Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Oct 12 22:24:46 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: Off Topic Message-ID: <019401bf152a$807abb80$4c711fd1@jrkeysppt> Does anyone have or know where I can get a setup disk for the HP omnibook 600c ? No luck on HP's web site. Thanks and sorry for the noise. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991012/e174222e/attachment.html From mbg at world.std.com Tue Oct 12 22:24:49 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: Tape drive help and/or part needed (Attention DEC-heads!) Message-ID: <199910130324.XAA15551@world.std.com> >Was this TM03 originally installed on the KS or has it come from >somewhere else. I'm wondering if it's got all the correct varients >for the TU77 and 18 bit bit fidler. > >Anyone have a TM03 print set that I can look at... When we got the -10s, we got print sets... and I know that there are some TM03/TU77 printsets in there... I'll have to look. I also have a bunch of manuals at work (that I rescued recently) relating to TU77. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 12 22:26:26 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: Floppy disks again Message-ID: <199910130326.XAA16510@world.std.com> <> I consider Apple disks and disk systems to be generally unique to <> themselves. < Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991012203202.02152100@mcmanis.com> At 10:50 PM 10/12/99 -0400, it was written wrote: >That 8/e chasis went for $1300 this morning! Youch! Better go hide mine. I sit corrected. Maybe the 8/f is worth what they want for it in ebay dollars. --Chuck From mbg at world.std.com Tue Oct 12 22:30:55 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: Sources for DEC Software Message-ID: <199910130330.XAA18431@world.std.com> >Does anyone know of any sources for old DEC software. Specifically, RT11 >for the PDP-11 series? RT-11 is licensed software. In order to run a copy of it, you need a license. The company which owns and distributes RT-11 now is Mentec, Ltd. (mentec.com). The latest version of RT-11 is V5.7. It is possible to obtain earlier versions (earler than V5.3), but by license they may only be run using a specific pdp-11 emulator, and not on real hardware (I wish it was otherwise, but these are the terms of the license). Even old versions require a license... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From daniel at internet.look.ca Tue Oct 12 22:32:38 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: pdp8/f Message-ID: <014301bf152b$9a25aa80$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> It's crazy. I can't believe what they are paying on EBay for less than *incomplete* systems. I could see $1400 with drives, running, tested, manuals, etc... but a shell?????? -----Original Message----- From: Chuck McManis To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, October 12, 1999 11:30 PM Subject: Re: pdp8/f >At 10:50 PM 10/12/99 -0400, it was written wrote: >>That 8/e chasis went for $1300 this morning! > >Youch! Better go hide mine. I sit corrected. Maybe the 8/f is worth what >they want for it in ebay dollars. >--Chuck > > > From Glenatacme at aol.com Tue Oct 12 22:36:25 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: ZX81 Question also... Message-ID: <0.7319113f.25355839@aol.com> In a message dated 10/11/1999 2:18:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jester909@Phreaker.net writes: > How do I load a program into a ZX81? I get as far as LOAD and then cant seem > to figure out the rest. Any Ideas? Try LOAD "" which should cause the zx81 to load the first program it encounters on the tape. If the name of the saved program is known, use LOAD "PROGRAM NAME" Incidentally, it's _not_ a good idea to keep both of the audio cables plugged in at the same time. This cause LOADing problems with many cassette recorders. Glen Goodwin 0/0 From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 12 23:00:53 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: CDC 924 console in 'The Terminator' References: <19991012172129.27959.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9910130001420D.29222@vault.neurotica.com> On Tue, 12 Oct 1999, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> > >A reasonbly good scan of the showcase photograph from a marketing brochure >> > >for the CDC 924 can be found at: http://www.mtr.webconcept.de/image/ >> > >computer/cdc/924.jpg >> > >> > Huh? You sure about that URL? I get a 404... >> >> I swear that last night the URL was good; today I get the same results. > >Your mail agent split the URL, so when people with HTML aware agents attempted >to build a link, it doesn't include "computer/cdc/924.jpg". It happened to >me, too. Nope, I picked up on that and concatenated the two lines. The second url that was sent is good. -Dave McGuire From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 12 22:18:20 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: What's the best RS-232 terminal? In-Reply-To: <38029319.BF69F1C@idirect.com> from "Jerome Fine" at Oct 11, 99 09:47:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 547 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991013/edd5982b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 12 22:20:49 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: RX02 on PDP8/e In-Reply-To: <199910120150.UAA01606@thufir.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Oct 11, 99 08:50:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 706 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991013/9d5fb090/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 12 22:33:09 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: Running a 220v computer in a 110v environment In-Reply-To: <199910120854.KAA25923@horus.mch.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Oct 12, 99 09:54:22 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2243 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991013/37f0262c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 12 22:42:06 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: Old 8086 Amstrad In-Reply-To: <003001bf14bd$cda23f40$75348ad1@home> from "Phil Clayton" at Oct 12, 99 10:26:38 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1559 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991013/a803b1be/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 12 22:58:53 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: Running a 220v computer in a 110v environment In-Reply-To: <199910121824.UAA13179@horus.mch.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Oct 12, 99 07:24:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2109 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991013/63896ee2/attachment.ksh From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 13 00:49:18 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: 3" Floppy disks again In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19991012223417.00a21100@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Oct 1999, Roger Merchberger wrote: > On or about 09:55 PM 10/12/99 -0400, Allison J Parent was caught in a dark > alley speaking these words: > >there were plenty of "odd" disk drives and media out there like the > >Amstrand 3" and the really old sony 3.5". > Don't forget the even odder ones, like Tandy's 2.8", or Zenith's 2.0" 720K > disks... I think those 2" disks were higher than 135TPI, I think they were > close to 200, but the exact number escapes me... Or the 3.25" (NOT hard-shelled) that Dysan bet the company on. > Oh, if anyone has one of those Amstrad drives for sale... I remember > drooling over those when I was young... I have the ad's in some of my old > HotCoCo's (I have the premiere issue around somewhere...) maybe if I get a > chance, I'll scan one in... Actually, that was AMDEK that sold the 3" subsystem for Coco and for Apple ][. Amstrad sold some computers that used 3" I am NOT enthusiastic about parting with any of my 3" or 3.25" drives. But, ... maybe some trades for 3.9", 2.5", etc. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed Oct 13 01:11:30 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: Old 8086 Amstrad In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Oct 13, 1999 04:42:06 AM Message-ID: <199910130611.AAA19880@calico.litterbox.com> > > > > > WOW! Great Timing on the infor for the Amstrad Website.. > > > > I can't believe you guys are on the subject of Amstrad PC6400.. > > A PPC640 ? At least that's what it was called in the UK. > > > I just purchased one at the local Thrift store yesterday for $4.04 > > and when I got to the checkout line the lady told me it was half price > > day so for only $2.02 I got this really cool Portable XT dual > > 720KB floppies, and a nice LCD screen.. > > It's a reasonable machine. I've been known to use mine as a terminal, or > to run a drive exerciser program (with the parallel port connected to > some signals of the drive-under-test), etc. > > I have the manuals for it (somewhere), including the software tech manual > and the service manual. It's pretty close to one of the Amstrad desktop > XT clones -- it's even got the same ASICs in it IIRC. > > > Very impressive machine for 1987.. > > And it appears to run on standard D batteries for portable use.. > > I thought it was C cells, but I might be wrong. Do you have the 2 plastic > tubes that hold the cells together? I've never tried running it on > batteries, since it takes 10 cells (!) and they don't last long. > > On the back are 2 power input connectors. The coaxial one is for a > 12V-ish input, centre +ve, which is what I normally use (from my bench PSU). > The 14 pin DIN is a power input (all sorts of _regulated_ voltages) from > an Amstrad PC monitor. It's probably best to ignore this. > > Oh yes, the power switch on the top is really a changeover from batteries > to external PSU. It seems a little odd at first. > > -tony > I have one of these things. I wanted one since they started going on deep discount in the late 80s, but I couldn't afford one then. My sweety found one on e-bay for not a lot. (By the way, if anyone has a dead ppc640 or 512 and wanted to sell me the case and handle assembly, I'm interested) It takes C cells and runs for quite a while on them, 8-12 hours. No hard disk, no backlight to eat battery power. I run Caldera DR-DOS 7 on it when I run it. I can probably come up with the manuals - I have them somewhere - if someone wants specific info from them. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Oct 13 03:14:06 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: Floppy disks again In-Reply-To: "Clint Wolff (VAX collector)" "Re: Floppy disks again" (Oct 12, 18:55) References: Message-ID: <9910130914.ZM9978@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 12, 18:55, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: > On Tue, 12 Oct 1999 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > > There are two media for 96tpi, one for DD and lower and is the SAME > > magnetic material as 48tpi. THere is also the 1.2mb media and this is > > VERY DIFFERENT and incompatable with any other drive or density. > > > > So if we ignore 1.2mb media and the oddbal spindle speeds and data rates > > that go with it we come down to one media (softs sector) and 6 different > > drives over the years. They are: > > > > 48tpi single sided (sa400) > > 48tpi double sided (sa450) > > 96tpi single sided (teac Fd55E or DEC RX50) > > 96tpi double sided (teac FD55F) > > 100tpi single and double sided models (micropolis I think) > > > > Ok, I wasn't aware of any 96tpi drives except the HD ones... Were > they ever used in the PC marketplace, or was it mostly a DEC thing? > After re-reading my uVAX manual about the RX50, I agree it is a > 96tpi single sided drive, though the manual says: "Use only formatted > RX50 diskettes, available from DIGITAL or its licensed distributors" They were used practically everywhere *except* in IBM/Intel/Microsoft PCs. They're certainly not unique to DEC. IBM/Microsoft seemed to want to standardise (not unreasonable!) and picked a particular format/size (with minor variations). The reason the manual says "Use only formatted RX50 diskettes" is that formatting the 10 sectors/track on an RX50 is rather critical, and most DEC machines to which those drives were connected, weren't supplied with formatting software. Rainbows were, though (I think), and I regularly format RX50s on other machines. > So there are four drives using the same media: > SSDD 180K,48tpi,40tracks/side > DSDD 360K,48tpi,40tracks/side > RX50 360K,96tpi,80tracks/side > ???? 720K,96tpi,80tracks/side - What was (is) this called? DSQD? The number of tracks has nothing whatsoever to do with the density! RX50 is SSDD, it just happens to have 10 sectors of 512 bytes per track, and 80 tracks. Your "??? 720K" is DSDD. Yes, some people did call this QD, but it isn't a different density at all -- the misnomer comes from people who don't understand what the words mean. Your numbers for 180K, 360K, etc, assume a particular number and size of sectors, which need not be the case (ie you can use the same drive and media to make a disk of different capacity). Also, there's nothing about (most) drives that makes them inherently single density or double density; that is just a question of how you interleave clock and data pulses, and how fast you send them down the Write Data line to the drive. > And the HD drive: > DSHD 1.2M,96tpi,80tracks/side - can read older media, but writing > is unreliable (head isn't wide > enough to erase the whole old track) Not so, the head is exactly the right width and layout for any 96 tpi DD (or SD, come to that) media. You just have to make sure it's set to the correct write current. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Oct 13 03:03:18 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: Needed / Available In-Reply-To: <000e01bf14f5$13ee7180$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Message-ID: >$1100 for a 16" NEC Multisync 4D or $2200 for a 19" Multisync 5D. Those >days are behind us, though, and I don't miss 'em. The CRT display will be dead as a profitable product within 10 years, with LCD displays taking over the high end market within 3 years. Isn't Moores law fun to watch? From jlwest at tseinc.com Wed Oct 13 06:08:54 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: paper tape repair Message-ID: <000701bf156b$568e17e0$d402a8c0@tse.com> Greetings! I have a paper tape that got messed up when I was trying to rewind it in a rather non-conventional way . I have several copies of the tape so it's no big deal, but I'd like to fix the messed up one. I seem to remember years ago seeing a paper tape repair kit that had clear tape with all holes punched in it. This was to be taped over the problem area. Is this type of thing still available anywhere, or are there other methods of repair people have found here? Thanks in advance! Jay West From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Wed Oct 13 06:02:40 1999 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: Old 8086 Amstrad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Oct 1999 04:42:06 +0100 (BST) Tony Duell wrote: > A PPC640 ? At least that's what it was called in the UK. I also have one of these... > It's a reasonable machine. I've been known to use mine as a terminal, or > to run a drive exerciser program (with the parallel port connected to > some signals of the drive-under-test), etc. I've used mine with a 12V cable to the car's electrical system, so that I could record the output of a GPS receiver while driving along. Just used a terminal emulator in "logging" mode. > -tony -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From sander at Cam045101.student.utwente.nl Wed Oct 13 07:14:14 1999 From: sander at Cam045101.student.utwente.nl (Sander Ruitenbeek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: What's the best RS-232 terminal? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > But if you want to actually run them turned on when they are even two > > high, other than a VT100 (which is what I still use for the first level), I > > have not found another terminal (except for VT100 clones) which allows > > stacking. In general, I use 6 terminals with 3 VT100s as the first level > > Oh, VT52s (and similar), H19s, Most Newburys, some Beehives, etc all have > flat tops and can be stacked. And that's just the ones I have here... > > Incidentally, the IBM PC monitors (5151, 5153, 5154) all stack pretty > well for storage... The Philips Pro 78M749 PC monitor stacks really well for storage too. > > -tony > Sander From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 13 07:34:46 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: Floppy disks again In-Reply-To: <9910130914.ZM9978@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: > The reason the manual says "Use only formatted RX50 diskettes" is that > formatting the 10 sectors/track on an RX50 is rather critical, and most DEC > machines to which those drives were connected, weren't supplied with > formatting software. Rainbows were, though (I think), and I regularly > format RX50s on other machines. Two reasons DEC did this. One was they believed the RX50 was to "sloppy" to format reliably and most of the smaller controllers used with it ran out of rom and couldn't fit the formatter. Add to that a generally weird attitude about formatting media in the field. > > ???? 720K,96tpi,80tracks/side - What was (is) this called? DSQD? > > The number of tracks has nothing whatsoever to do with the density! RX50 > is SSDD, it just happens to have 10 sectors of 512 bytes per track, and 80 > tracks. Your "??? 720K" is DSDD. Yes, some people did call this QD, but > it isn't a different density at all -- the misnomer comes from people who > don't understand what the words mean. Your numbers for 180K, 360K, etc, > assume a particular number and size of sectors, which need not be the case > (ie you can use the same drive and media to make a disk of different > capacity). Misnomer, but back in the early 80s when it appeard on CP/M system it was indeed called that to reflect not the format but the capacity wich was quad (four times) the single density floppies. I know when NS* offered the DD controller one option was 96tpi twosided drives and it was called quad density as it was 800k and the same controller single density on a 35track single sided (the introductory format) was a whopping 90k! Allison From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed Oct 13 07:55:36 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: Tape drive help and/or part needed (Attention DEC-heads!) In-Reply-To: <199910130323.XAA14906@world.std.com> from Megan at "Oct 12, 1999 11:23:11 pm" Message-ID: <199910131255.IAA27342@pechter.dyndns.org> > > So... why is his board bad? Age? Or did something else go bad > and take it for a ride? If the latter, has the problem been > fixed (for sure)? > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer It's very unlikely something in the TU77 took out the TM03. If I had a printset I could trace back the TM03 register bits to figure out where the problem is. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed Oct 13 08:00:43 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: Tape drive help and/or part needed (Attention DEC-heads!) In-Reply-To: <19991012212209.16601.qmail@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "Oct 12, 1999 9:22: 9 pm" Message-ID: <199910131300.JAA27473@pechter.dyndns.org> > > Chris Zach (cz@alembic.crystel.com) has the MIT-AI KS10, and wants to run > > ITS on it, but his tape drive (A TU77) is screwed up. It generates a > > FORMATTER ERROR in the Status register whenever it's on. > > He has booted from drives on the same Massbus so that's OK. > > Well, you've explained one problem already. You're not supposed to put > disk drives and tape drives on the same Massbus. > > It's because of software limitations and (If I remember correctly) disk and tape drives used different numbers of massbus registers so you have to jumper (in the PDP11 case) the RH differently. Don't know about the 10's though. Vax RH780's could do both disks and tapes on the same massbus. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From cfandt at netsync.net Wed Oct 13 08:05:31 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: paper tape repair In-Reply-To: <000701bf156b$568e17e0$d402a8c0@tse.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991013085020.00a93380@206.231.8.2> Check Western Numerical Control out in Grass Valley, CA . We on the Greenkeys list who are into Teletype/Creed/Kleinschmidt/etc. 8-level teleprinters find several supplies there including the Slicing Patches you need. Look on the Products page for their list of stuff available. There may be a couple of other companies who have some TTY items but WN seems to be the most comprehensive. Regards, Chris Upon the date 06:08 AM 10/13/99 -0500, Jay West said something like: >Greetings! > >I have a paper tape that got messed up when I was trying to rewind it in a >rather non-conventional way . > >I have several copies of the tape so it's no big deal, but I'd like to fix >the messed up one. I seem to remember years ago seeing a paper tape repair >kit that had clear tape with all holes punched in it. This was to be taped >over the problem area. Is this type of thing still available anywhere, or >are there other methods of repair people have found here? -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk Wed Oct 13 08:24:12 1999 From: a.kotsenos at rca.ac.uk (Athanasios Kotsenos) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: Where is this list mentioned on the web? In-Reply-To: <37FCAAE4.F6264253@olf.com> Message-ID: I want to unsubscribe, basically, and resubscribe using another address. I can't find any reference to it on the web. Shouldn't it be much easier to find? I found some of the sites I had found way back when I was looking for computer museums and mailing lists, but even then I remember it was a long time until I finally found this mailing list. Can you please give me some pages where it is mentioned and the address I have to send 'unsubscribe' to? Thanks a lot, Nasos. From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Oct 13 08:41:38 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: pdp8/f (now Amiga poster) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991012203202.02152100@mcmanis.com> References: <013401bf1525$c1641c40$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991013084138.00c2d9d0@vpwisfirewall> At 08:33 PM 10/12/99 -0700, Chuck McManis wrote: > >Youch! Better go hide mine. I sit corrected. Maybe the 8/f is worth what >they want for it in ebay dollars. Yes, it's insane over there. I received good advice from this list about the value of those two SGI hardware manuals I almost gave away for free... the auction for one is at $121 this morning. I'm also auctioning a "rare" old Amiga RoboCity poster, as handed out to developers at the Amiga developer conference in November 1986. This wasn't the first developer conference, but it was the first after the machine went public. As reparation to the list gods for reneging on the SGI manuals, I'll place three of these posters up for grabs to list members within the sound of my voice. I'll pay shipping anywhere in the world. They'll go to the three people offering the most interesting trinkets in exchange, as judged by me at the end of the week. Points will be deducted if you make the mistake of replying to the list instead of replying in private mail. - John From at258 at osfn.org Wed Oct 13 09:02:26 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: Tape drive help and/or part needed (Attention DEC-heads!) In-Reply-To: <199910131300.JAA27473@pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: I think our KS10 has separate ports for the massbuss marked disk and tape, but I'd have to double check to be sure I'm not thinking of something else. On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Bill Pechter wrote: > > > Chris Zach (cz@alembic.crystel.com) has the MIT-AI KS10, and wants to run > > > ITS on it, but his tape drive (A TU77) is screwed up. It generates a > > > FORMATTER ERROR in the Status register whenever it's on. > > > He has booted from drives on the same Massbus so that's OK. > > > > Well, you've explained one problem already. You're not supposed to put > > disk drives and tape drives on the same Massbus. > > > > > It's because of software limitations and (If I remember correctly) > disk and tape drives used different numbers of massbus registers > so you have to jumper (in the PDP11 case) the RH differently. > > Don't know about the 10's though. Vax RH780's could do both disks and > tapes on the same massbus. > > Bill > > --- > bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org > Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, > The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From msg at computerpro.com Wed Oct 13 09:33:53 1999 From: msg at computerpro.com (Grigoni) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: Where is this list mentioned on the web? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Check the headers of any message from this list; they contain addresses for list commands including subscription control. On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Athanasios Kotsenos wrote: > I want to unsubscribe, basically, and resubscribe using another address. > I can't find any reference to it on the web. Shouldn't it be much easier to > find? I found some of the sites I had found way back when I was looking for > computer museums and mailing lists, but even then I remember it was a long > time until I finally found this mailing list. > Can you please give me some pages where it is mentioned and the address I > have to send 'unsubscribe' to? > Thanks a lot, > Nasos. > > > From marvin at rain.org Wed Oct 13 10:12:51 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: Where is this list mentioned on the web? References: Message-ID: <3804A173.6B889840@rain.org> Grigoni wrote: > > Check the headers of any message from this list; they contain addresses > for list commands including subscription control. Thanks for pointing that out! I had never noticed that before. From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Wed Oct 13 11:01:37 1999 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: MicroVAX 2000 questions. Message-ID: <01JH2YK28UVCAYKT5L@cc.usu.edu> >F_..E...D...C...B...A...9...8...7...6...5...4_..3_..2_..1?.. > > ? E 0040 0000.0005 > ? C 0080 0000.4001 > ? 6 00A0 0000.4001 >?? 1 00C0 0011.700E If you put a terminator on the network spigot, the "?? 1" should go away. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed Oct 13 11:02:08 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: IBM PC era software Message-ID: <199910131602.QAA20349@thorin.cs.umn.edu> I found some 5.25" floppy disks, apparently from the era of the IBM PC. This stuff could be yours... IBM Diagnostics (version 2.05; IBM Personal Computers) 1983 Lotus 1.2.3 version 2.10 1986 PSpice - electrical Circuit Simulator. Classroom version. Demo versions of pro/bis and pro/sci version 1.0 Borland turbo pascal 8087. version 2.0 1983 Borland Turbo Graphix Toolbox. version 1.05A 1984 Ability Demo Disk 1 & 2 T3 (thats T cubed) Scientific Word Processing System. Beta Version 2.11 Absolutely no documentation for any of this stuff. -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Oct 13 11:23:48 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: Where and Where to get an IBM 1130 In-Reply-To: <19991013133610015.AAA259@mail.bee.net@smtp.bee.net> Message-ID: <4.1.19991013091447.0415f620@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At , Randy M.Kaplan wrote: >1. I have noticed in reading the list that individuals will come upon >various machines in various places that are being retired. I also recently >purchased a Sun IPC from ebay. When I went to pick it up, the fellow had a >yard full of stuff he had apparently scarfed up from various companies. How >does one find out about these sources? Who do you contact? Well a couple of things, if you start collecting old computers many sources will find _you_. Unfortunately many of those sources will want you to take 75 80386SX computers off their hands not IBM 1130s. Look up scrap metal recycling in your yellow pages. These guys are sort of the "sharks" of computer collecting, they devour things indiscriminately but you can be a "trigger fish" and teach them the value of some machines. A good relationship with a top tier scrapper is a really good thing to have. The scrappers watch the new paper for liquidation bids. Places that are scrapping out entire buildings and such. Older and larger computers are sometimes found in these liquidations because the buildings are abandoned and the "big iron" in the machine room is just left there. (I "found" 1/2 of a 370 that way once in a building that was for lease.) >2. I was wondering if anyone had any notion of where I might look for an IBM >1130 or is this a totally ridiculous pursuit. When I started out, this was >the first machine I wrote Fortran programs for. The 1130 is not an easy machine to find. You will have several sources (ranked from most likely to least likely): 1) Another collector who can't afford the space any more and wants to keep the machine in the hands of a caretaker. 2) Some place that had to keep software for it running and kept one around as a "gold standard." 3) A scrapper who hasn't had the heart to crush it yet. 4) IBM (who might have one in a warehouse somewhere for some reason) Its certainly a worthwhile pursuit. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Oct 13 11:10:49 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: collectors vs. enthusiasts In-Reply-To: <014301bf152b$9a25aa80$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> (daniel@internet.look.ca) References: <014301bf152b$9a25aa80$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> Message-ID: <19991013161049.22923.qmail@brouhaha.com> > It's crazy. I can't believe what they are paying on EBay for less than > *incomplete* systems. I could see $1400 with drives, running, tested, > manuals, etc... but a shell?????? That's because eBay is where "collectors" hang out. Not people like us, for whom collector is an insufficient/inaccurate term. It's like the difference between coin or stamp collectors and classic car enthusiasts. A coin or stamp collector gets the coin or stamp he's been drooling over, puts it in a book or in a display on his wall, checks it off a list, and he's done. Since coins and stamps don't "do" anything, that's fine. But a classic car enthusiast maintains classic cars in working order (or at least attempts to do so), and drives them now and then. They're not just a checklist item. A seemingly large percentage of the computer "collectors" on eBay are just people who see collecting computers exactly like collecting coins. They don't give a shit whether the thing works, as long as it looks cool and will impress their friends. Hell, if they got a PDP-8 that did work, they wouldn't know what to do with it aside from destroying the core planes to make wall hangings. That's why I personally will try never to sell any truly rare items on eBay. I'd rather make sure that they go to a good home, rather than be obligated to sell to one of these collector" assholes, just because he had deep pockets. Eric From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Wed Oct 13 11:27:55 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: Yet another "free stuff" bonanza Message-ID: Well, in the spirit of all the "free stuff" sharing going around, I dug out a few more things to share... 1) Apple Mac+ keyboard, no cable, dirty 2) An HP 9123 drive for the TouchScreen II (150), beaten up, no PS 3) IBM Thinkpad 560 w/cracked LCD and missing a mouse button 4) Kaypro 4 "Parts" (2 kbds, whatever you want me to remove) from 2 already-somewhat-stripped machines Preference is always given to anyone who can pick up (SoCal), sorry. If someone was really interested in creating a big love/share fest, I'm looking for some 4meg memory modules for my mac IIfx... Cheers, Aaron From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Oct 13 11:17:12 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:51 2005 Subject: Tape drive help and/or part needed (Attention DEC-heads!) In-Reply-To: <199910131300.JAA27473@pechter.dyndns.org> (message from Bill Pechter on Wed, 13 Oct 1999 09:00:43 -0400 (EDT)) References: <199910131300.JAA27473@pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <19991013161712.22966.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Well, you've explained one problem already. You're not supposed to put > disk drives and tape drives on the same Massbus. Bill Pechter wrote: > It's because of software limitations and (If I remember correctly) > disk and tape drives used different numbers of massbus registers > so you have to jumper (in the PDP11 case) the RH differently. And since the KS10 uses a variant of the RH11, it has the same limitation. That's why there are two RH11s in a KS10. In theory it apparently can handle three, but I've not heard of anyone installing a third, and I don't know whether the software supports it. > Don't know about the 10's though. Vax RH780's could do both disks and > tapes on the same massbus. Might be possible on the RH10 or RH20, but I don't think software supports it. From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Wed Oct 13 11:47:12 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: Running a 220v computer in a 110v environment Message-ID: <80256809.005C547F.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Peter Pachla quoting [I forget whom] > > A fuse will never protect _you_ nor the device. It is only ment > >to protect the house/the installation.... > > This I have to take issue with (though I'm probably quibbling over > semantics?). > > The purpose of the fuse in the PLUG is to protect the power cable between the > plug and the device from carrying an unsafe current in the event of a problem > with that CABLE. > > The device itself should contain a second fuse which is there to protect the > PSU in the event of a failure or overload. > > At least that's what we were taught when I did an electronics course a few > years back. Right. I think there are some misconceptions around here that need clearing up. I will put in a disclaimer that I am not an electronic engineer but an electrical engineer - my field ends roughly where the power cord enters the computer! - but many of the principles carry across between the fields. Misconception 1: A fuse or breaker in the live (hot) wire means that a person touching live metalwork will not get a fatal shock. THIS IS TOTALLY FALSE - which is I think what our previous contributor was getting at. A fuse or breaker is intended to interrupt the circuit when there is an excessive current flowing. Since it can take as little as a milliamp to kill someone, and very few people survive more than 30mA, a fuse is unlikely to help. The fuse - as Tony and Peter have both pointed out - performs what might be called damage limitation on the device. One fault causes excessive current; the fuse prevents the excessive current causing further faults, either upstream or dounstream. Misconception 2: Earthed (grounded) metalwork is safe. It is usually safe, PROVIDED fuses and things are in place, AND THE EQUIPMENT HAS BEEN PROPERLY DESIGNED. Anyone who has designed electronics will have encountered earth path resistance. If there is a large current flowing in the earth path, the potential of nominally grounded points can rise. (In digital circuits this is usually a transient phenomenon, where a switching surge puts glitches on signals that should be constant at ground potential. This has the disadvantage that inductance is also significant...) When designing electrical equipment, it is important to keep the resistance of the earth path low enough that in the event of a short circuit, the potential of (say) the chassis will not rise too high. So how high is too high? The answer depends on the length of time for which the potential will be present - the longer it is there, the more likely it is to kill the person writhing on the floor unable to release their finger muscles... The length of time the high potential is present depends - of course - on the fuse or breaker. Fortunately there is negative feedback - the lower the current, the longer the fuse takes to blow; but the lower will be the potential rise, so the lower will be the current flowing in the person touching it. In this sense the fuse protects you - in the event of a short circuit, it cuts off the current before a high voltage has been present on the "earthed" chassis long enough to kill you. But remember, THE CURRENT FLOWING IN _YOU_ IS DEPENDENT ONLY ON VOLTAGE (and on how you make contact - but not on the circuit to which you're connected) - your resistance is so high (kilohms) that your effect on short circuit currents or fuses is NEGLIGIBLE. (OK, perhaps someone will come up with an exception - but it is best to assume that this always applies. I know of no exceptions on domestic mains...) If you are running electrical equipment and a fuse blows, YOU MUST DISCONNECT IT before you go poking around inside. NEVER rely on the open-circuited fuse to protect you (which may also be what our previous contributor was getting at). If you are running British equipment from a US 120-0-120 supply, and there is a short to ground near the hot end, the fuse will blow in the normal way. This will interrupt most of the current, but will leave the other side of the supply connected through most of the device to ground. An earth leakage trip (ELCB, RCD, GFCI) [1] is required to pick up the remainder of the fault current and disconnect altogether. If there is a short to ground near the neutral end, only the ELCB (and possibly the main breaker or fuse at the consumer unit) will see it. This is the disadvantage of running British (or European) equipment on US 220V mains. The fact that parts of the innards will be live (hot) when a single pole switch is opened or a fuse blows is IRRELEVANT, because YOU SHOULD BE UNPLUGGING BEFORE YOU GO POKING AROUND INSIDE ANYWAY. If you have to run stuff with the cover off, be aware of the dangers, and take precautions to minimise the risk. But this too goes for all equipment anyway. I hope this clears up some misconceptions. Philip. [1] Earth leakage trips: ELCB = Earth Leakage Circuit Breaker (UK) GFCI = Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter (US) These are generally Residual Current Devices (RCD) - detecting the difference between hot and neutral currents. Some older trip switches were not RCDs, but measured ground potential rise instead, but these are not recommended for new designs - or for old ones for that matter! They should still work for any fault that makes a chassis potentially (pun intended) dangerous to touch. 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If you have received this communication in error, or if any problems occur in transmission please notify us immediately by telephone on +44 (0)2476 425474 From daniel at internet.look.ca Wed Oct 13 12:13:00 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: collectors vs. enthusiasts Message-ID: <002701bf159e$34c36560$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 12:29 PM Subject: collectors vs. enthusiasts >> It's crazy. I can't believe what they are paying on EBay for less than >> *incomplete* systems. I could see $1400 with drives, running, tested, >> manuals, etc... but a shell?????? > > >That's because eBay is where "collectors" hang out. Not people like us, >for whom collector is an insufficient/inaccurate term. Well, if you are looking for a good home for one of stright 8s and for a decent $ then please e-mail me! I won't hang the core memory on the wall and I will get it running! I agree with you on the "collector" term. That PDP 8 was bought for $1300 because it was a nice looking desktop unit. Rack mount minis don't even get bids on EBay! I use EBay to try and buy parts (never heard of any of lists/groups like this one a month ago.). I lost the H214 core memory module I needed from EBay from a sniper bidder wanting to frame it (I think). john > >It's like the difference between coin or stamp collectors and classic >car enthusiasts. A coin or stamp collector gets the coin or stamp he's >been drooling over, puts it in a book or in a display on his wall, >checks it off a list, and he's done. Since coins and stamps don't "do" >anything, that's fine. > >But a classic car enthusiast maintains classic cars in working order (or >at least attempts to do so), and drives them now and then. They're not >just a checklist item. > >A seemingly large percentage of the computer "collectors" on eBay are >just people who see collecting computers exactly like collecting coins. >They don't give a shit whether the thing works, as long as it looks cool >and will impress their friends. Hell, if they got a PDP-8 that did >work, they wouldn't know what to do with it aside from destroying the >core planes to make wall hangings. > >That's why I personally will try never to sell any truly rare items on >eBay. I'd rather make sure that they go to a good home, rather than be >obligated to sell to one of these collector" assholes, just because he >had deep pockets. > > >Eric > From daniel at internet.look.ca Wed Oct 13 12:20:57 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: Where and Where to get an IBM 1130 Message-ID: <003601bf159f$50e60b20$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> Many schools used the IBM 1130 here in Ontario, Canada. I scrapped my IBM 1130 a few years ago as it was taking up too much room. :-(. Most schools shared one unit. The standard config in schools was: IBM 1130 IBM card sorter (really old) IBM manual card punch 2 automatic card punches (I think 8010s) 1 high speed L shaped card reader 1 band printer about 40 disk packs all original schematics and documentation When I got mine in 1986 it still used light bulbs for the front panel. Call the Public School Boards in Ontario and inquire about them. They may still have docs kicking around and possibly there is one in storage somewhere. -----Original Message----- From: Chuck McManis To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 12:28 PM Subject: Re: Where and Where to get an IBM 1130 >At , Randy M.Kaplan wrote: >>1. I have noticed in reading the list that individuals will come upon >>various machines in various places that are being retired. I also recently >>purchased a Sun IPC from ebay. When I went to pick it up, the fellow had a >>yard full of stuff he had apparently scarfed up from various companies. How >>does one find out about these sources? Who do you contact? > >Well a couple of things, if you start collecting old computers many sources >will find _you_. Unfortunately many of those sources will want you to take >75 80386SX computers off their hands not IBM 1130s. > >Look up scrap metal recycling in your yellow pages. These guys are sort of >the "sharks" of computer collecting, they devour things indiscriminately >but you can be a "trigger fish" and teach them the value of some machines. >A good relationship with a top tier scrapper is a really good thing to have. > >The scrappers watch the new paper for liquidation bids. Places that are >scrapping out entire buildings and such. Older and larger computers are >sometimes found in these liquidations because the buildings are abandoned >and the "big iron" in the machine room is just left there. (I "found" 1/2 >of a 370 that way once in a building that was for lease.) > >>2. I was wondering if anyone had any notion of where I might look for an IBM >>1130 or is this a totally ridiculous pursuit. When I started out, this was >>the first machine I wrote Fortran programs for. > >The 1130 is not an easy machine to find. You will have several sources >(ranked from most likely to least likely): > 1) Another collector who can't afford the space any more > and wants to keep the machine in the hands of a caretaker. > 2) Some place that had to keep software for it running and > kept one around as a "gold standard." > 3) A scrapper who hasn't had the heart to crush it yet. > 4) IBM (who might have one in a warehouse somewhere for > some reason) > >Its certainly a worthwhile pursuit. > >--Chuck > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Oct 13 13:39:49 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: HP 9123 disk drive was Re: Yet another "free stuff" bonanza In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991013133949.3a4f2628@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 09:27 AM 10/13/99 -0700, Aaron wrote: >Well, in the spirit of all the "free stuff" sharing going around, I dug >out a few more things to share... > >1) Apple Mac+ keyboard, no cable, dirty >2) An HP 9123 drive for the TouchScreen II (150), beaten up, no PS The 9123 doesn't have a power supply. It gets it's power from the TouchScreen II through the five pin DIN connector. Except for the power supply, the 9123 is the same as the 9122 (double sided 3.5" Sony floppy drives). You can connect it to a +5 and 12 VDC power supply and use it like a 9122. Joe From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Wed Oct 13 12:54:46 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: HP 9123 disk drive was Re: Yet another "free stuff" bonanza In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19991013133949.3a4f2628@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: > The 9123 doesn't have a power supply. It gets it's power from the > TouchScreen II through the five pin DIN connector. Except for the power > supply, the 9123 is the same as the 9122 (double sided 3.5" Sony floppy > drives). You can connect it to a +5 and 12 VDC power supply and use it like > a 9122. Ah, yes, I don't know what I was thinking. Totally forgot about that...but I guess since I don't have a TSII it *is* missing the power suply... Cheers, Aaron From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Wed Oct 13 12:55:36 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: Yet another "free stuff" bonanza In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Thinkpad and the Kaypro parts have been spoken for, thanks. On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > Well, in the spirit of all the "free stuff" sharing going around, I dug > out a few more things to share... > > 1) Apple Mac+ keyboard, no cable, dirty > 2) An HP 9123 drive for the TouchScreen II (150), beaten up, no PS > 3) IBM Thinkpad 560 w/cracked LCD and missing a mouse button > 4) Kaypro 4 "Parts" (2 kbds, whatever you want me to remove) from 2 > already-somewhat-stripped machines > > Preference is always given to anyone who can pick up (SoCal), sorry. If > someone was really interested in creating a big love/share fest, I'm > looking for some 4meg memory modules for my mac IIfx... > > Cheers, > > Aaron > From donm at cts.com Wed Oct 13 13:21:04 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: Floppy disks again In-Reply-To: <9910130914.ZM9978@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Oct 12, 18:55, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: > > On Tue, 12 Oct 1999 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > > > > There are two media for 96tpi, one for DD and lower and is the SAME > > > magnetic material as 48tpi. THere is also the 1.2mb media and this is > > > VERY DIFFERENT and incompatable with any other drive or density. > > > > > > So if we ignore 1.2mb media and the oddbal spindle speeds and data > rates > > > that go with it we come down to one media (softs sector) and 6 > different > > > drives over the years. They are: > > > > > > 48tpi single sided (sa400) > > > 48tpi double sided (sa450) > > > 96tpi single sided (teac Fd55E or DEC RX50) > > > 96tpi double sided (teac FD55F) > > > 100tpi single and double sided models (micropolis I think) > > > > > > > Ok, I wasn't aware of any 96tpi drives except the HD ones... Were > > they ever used in the PC marketplace, or was it mostly a DEC thing? > > After re-reading my uVAX manual about the RX50, I agree it is a > > 96tpi single sided drive, though the manual says: "Use only formatted > > RX50 diskettes, available from DIGITAL or its licensed distributors" > > They were used practically everywhere *except* in IBM/Intel/Microsoft PCs. > They're certainly not unique to DEC. IBM/Microsoft seemed to want to > standardise (not unreasonable!) and picked a particular format/size (with > minor variations). > > The reason the manual says "Use only formatted RX50 diskettes" is that > formatting the 10 sectors/track on an RX50 is rather critical, and most DEC > machines to which those drives were connected, weren't supplied with > formatting software. Rainbows were, though (I think), and I regularly > format RX50s on other machines. > > > So there are four drives using the same media: > > SSDD 180K,48tpi,40tracks/side > > DSDD 360K,48tpi,40tracks/side > > RX50 360K,96tpi,80tracks/side > > ???? 720K,96tpi,80tracks/side - What was (is) this called? DSQD? > > The number of tracks has nothing whatsoever to do with the density! RX50 > is SSDD, it just happens to have 10 sectors of 512 bytes per track, and 80 > tracks. Your "??? 720K" is DSDD. Yes, some people did call this QD, but > it isn't a different density at all -- the misnomer comes from people who > don't understand what the words mean. Your numbers for 180K, 360K, etc, Pete, since the term QD or Quad Density dates back to at least the North Star Horizon, I would submit that it was not people who didn't understand but rather who chose to ignore the real meaning and to use the term as it was descriptive of the expanded disk capacity. - don > assume a particular number and size of sectors, which need not be the case > (ie you can use the same drive and media to make a disk of different > capacity). > > Also, there's nothing about (most) drives that makes them inherently single > density or double density; that is just a question of how you interleave > clock and data pulses, and how fast you send them down the Write Data line > to the drive. > > > And the HD drive: > > DSHD 1.2M,96tpi,80tracks/side - can read older media, but writing > > is unreliable (head isn't wide > > enough to erase the whole old track) > > Not so, the head is exactly the right width and layout for any 96 tpi DD > (or SD, come to that) media. You just have to make sure it's set to the > correct write current. > > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York > From jpero at pop.cgocable.net Wed Oct 13 10:16:55 1999 From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: Floppy disks again Message-ID: <01JH39O4PI2KEFFYPK@ritvax.isc.rit.edu> > From: jpero@pop.cgocable.net > To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 14:46:24 +0000 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Subject: Re: Floppy disks again > Priority: normal > In-reply-to: > References: <199910120735.DAA20413@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> > X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) > > > Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 10:33:08 -0400 (EDT) > > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > > From: allisonp@world.std.com > > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > > Subject: Re: Floppy disks again > > X-To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > > Yes, specifically head width. The media also limits things some > > as very narrow head will tend to dig into the media and the width of the > > track also defines signal level. Zip disks are high track density > > floppies using special cobalt media for high bit density and also high > > track density. They aslo have servo info on the media to aid in finding > > the rather narrow tracks. > > The tolerences is very loose especially in zip harderned steel > wire-rails resting in vee notches basically clamped between black > chassis and clear piece by 4 T6 (wood) screws, the magnet poles > simply held together by magnetic power. Whole magnet thingy is > simply loose in it's holder and only kept in place by pieces of tapes > to prevent rattling. I rescused one from certain death after > cleaning the heads with piece of tissue paper clamped between heads > dampened with model glue fluid to clean both. Alignment is basically > built in (mostly in that black chassis and heads). Remaining > alignment errors is taken up by servo tracking alone. > > Curious: What is ideal way for heads design? Make it larger to keep > it from digging into soft floppy cookies in those zip drives? Those > heads looks exactly like it came out of early 3.5" harddrives. > And ironically spun at 3600rpm. > > > > > This is why 135 tpi has been the limit for absolute mechanical positioners > > like floppies. At some point the track is so narrow you have to be able > > to hunt for it and stepper based positioners are inexpensive but lack > > resolution (and speed) for that task. The next generation will be some > > form of voicecoil and the media will have embedded servo (Zip, LS120, > > Jaz and friends). At some point you bridge the differences between floppy > > and hard disk. > > Small bone: Jaz is harddrive technology w/ platter(s) in a cartidge > no different from Syquests and like. > > > Allison > > Wizard > From donm at cts.com Wed Oct 13 14:52:23 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: 3" Floppy disks again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Oct 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Tue, 12 Oct 1999, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > On or about 09:55 PM 10/12/99 -0400, Allison J Parent was caught in a dark > > alley speaking these words: > > >there were plenty of "odd" disk drives and media out there like the > > >Amstrand 3" and the really old sony 3.5". > > Don't forget the even odder ones, like Tandy's 2.8", or Zenith's 2.0" 720K > > disks... I think those 2" disks were higher than 135TPI, I think they were > > close to 200, but the exact number escapes me... > > Or the 3.25" (NOT hard-shelled) that Dysan bet the company on. > > > Oh, if anyone has one of those Amstrad drives for sale... I remember > > drooling over those when I was young... I have the ad's in some of my old > > HotCoCo's (I have the premiere issue around somewhere...) maybe if I get a > > chance, I'll scan one in... > > Actually, that was AMDEK that sold the 3" subsystem for Coco and for Apple > ][. Amstrad sold some computers that used 3" > > I am NOT enthusiastic about parting with any of my 3" or 3.25" drives. > But, ... maybe some trades for 3.9", 2.5", etc. Aaah! A 3.9" diskette. Is that what those Canon CMD-500's use? Must be a strange looking diskette judging by the clearance in the drive. - don > -- > Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com > XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com > 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 > Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 13 12:57:15 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: pdp8/f (now Amiga poster) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991013084138.00c2d9d0@vpwisfirewall> from "John Foust" at Oct 13, 99 08:41:38 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1228 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991013/0805430d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 13 13:03:59 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: collectors vs. enthusiasts In-Reply-To: <19991013161049.22923.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Oct 13, 99 04:10:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1740 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991013/b5364833/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 13 12:40:26 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: Old 8086 Amstrad In-Reply-To: from "John Honniball" at Oct 13, 99 12:02:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 525 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991013/6446fd82/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 13 12:45:45 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: paper tape repair In-Reply-To: <000701bf156b$568e17e0$d402a8c0@tse.com> from "Jay West" at Oct 13, 99 06:08:54 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1476 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991013/b978a075/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 13 12:49:58 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: HP 9123 disk drive was Re: Yet another "free stuff" bonanza In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19991013133949.3a4f2628@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Oct 13, 99 01:39:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 787 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991013/97579656/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 13 13:31:27 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: Running a 220v computer in a 110v environment In-Reply-To: <80256809.005C547F.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@pgen.com" at Oct 13, 99 05:47:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5030 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991013/d6031315/attachment.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Oct 13 15:28:06 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: Running a 220v computer in a 110v environment Message-ID: <991013162806.2360017c@trailing-edge.com> >Find out what the danger areas are. There's little hazard in working on a >CPU board, for example (but then we all know that :-)). Actually, there *is* a substantial hazard around CPU boards, especially on classic machines where the power supply is capable of putting out 5V at a 60 or 100 or (in a recent machine that I've been tinkering with) 350 Amps. If something metal shorts out the power supply, and that something metal is near your fingers, you can get a very nasty burn, and also send sparks and bits of molten metal into your eyes and face. (Note that I've completely passed over the rather substantial harm often done to the supply components and PC board etches by a dead short. If you're lucky, you'll simply melt the PC board traces rather than burn yourself or send sparks flying.) The solution, of course, is simple: don't wear anything conductive while poking around high-current supplies. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed Oct 13 16:07:07 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: pdp8/f (now Amiga poster) In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Oct 13, 1999 06:57:15 pm" Message-ID: <199910132107.VAA20949@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > > Yes, it's insane over there. I received good advice from this list about > > the value of those two SGI hardware manuals I almost gave away for free... > > the auction for one is at $121 this morning. > > Are you saying that you offered something for free here (or for the cost > of shipping, or whatever), somebody told you it was worth real money on > e-bay, so you decided to sell it there? > > If so, then I regard this as _very_ unethical behaviour, and not at all > what I'd expect from a classic computer enthusiast. > Well, I dont agree with this at all. As an example, last week the junk dealer that I got my PDP8/e from, in a discussion about other computers with front panel switches that I might be interested in, brought up the subject of an IMSAI. I told him those were worth a lot of money these days, and when he said in disbelief that he had one at home he hadnt used in ages, I didnt try to get the machine from him at a low price. I went and explained that I thought he could easily get $1000, and more likely at least $1500 for it on ebay, especially if it still looks nice (working condition didnt matter). I further lowered my chances of ever seeing this computer, by showing him how to do a completed-auction search on ebay, and lo and behold the first item that popped up was a IMSAI that sold for about $1800. Unethical would be taking advantage of someone who thought they were being slightly generous by giving away a several dollar item for free, when you know its worth 50 times as much. I lost out on an IMSAI (which i wouldnt know what to do with anyways, so it would sit idle in my collection) and in exchange this guy will remember me, and the next time some PDP rackmount equipment appears, he'll remember the guy who was excited about the PDP8/e, and who told him about his valuable IMSAI, and the odds of a digital photo of that DEC rackmount equipment appearing on their web site so I have a chance to see it, will have increased tremendously. AND, that IMSAI certainly wont be thrown into a landfill now, so in effect i've saved it as well, and its in the hands of someone who knows how to use it and can tell his grandkids about it, etc. Ok, so i'm not as altruistic as i'm making myself out to be, but this is the way i conducted myself AFTER i had already set the purchase price on what i wanted. -Lawrence LeMay From Jgzabol at aol.com Wed Oct 13 16:44:55 1999 From: Jgzabol at aol.com (Jgzabol@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: CDC 9766 aka RM05 Message-ID: <0.4f8049fc.25365757@aol.com> Hello there, does someone have any documentation on the CDC 9766 SMD drive, aka DEC RM05 (with different interface, as it appears) ? Schematics, handbooks, service manuals, etc., would be greatly appreciated; all eventual costs covered, of course. Thanks and regards John G. Zabolitzky From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Oct 13 16:50:01 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: collectors vs. enthusiasts In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19991013215001.25258.qmail@brouhaha.com> In response to my rant: > That's because eBay is where "collectors" hang out. Not people like us, > for whom collector is an insufficient/inaccurate term. Tony Duell replied: > Agreed. I maintain that I am _not_ a computer collector. Sure I have a > number of old computers around the place. But I have them to learn about > (how they work, etc), to restore, to use, etc. For want of a better word to describe what we do (as opposed to "collect"), I used enthusiast. But if anyone has a better suggestion, I think it is quite useful to make this distinction. > I certainly don't have them as an investment. > > Quite simply I'd be _very_ happy if the prices of all old computers fell > to 0 tomorrow. 'Collectors' would be very distressed if that happened. I've never been into coin or stamp collecting, so I don't know whether there are actually different mindsets for people collecting them as an investment vs. some other reason. Since I've put my rant up on my web page, maybe I should think about this some more and expand upon it. At VCF I spoke at some length with someone who writes for Wired (but not the person that wrote their VCF writeup). I told him my analogy of coin/stamp vs. classic car collectors. I'm hoping to see it in print some day. From Roger at Sinasohn.com Wed Oct 13 17:30:36 1999 From: Roger at Sinasohn.com (Roger Sinasohn) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: Fwd: Acoustic modems? Message-ID: <3.0.16.19991013152152.52f7b21e@mail.9netave.com> Please respond to Tim directly at if you can help... >Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 23:18:45 -0800 >From: Tim Long >Subject: Acoustic modems? > >Hi! I am interested in purchasing an acoustic modem, but I have not been >able to find one anywhere. First, are there any acoustic modems that are >compatible with modern IBM-clone PCs? Where could I find one? I have >checked most of the local used computer stores, but all I have gotten have >been weird facial expressions from the proprietors, usually followed by, >"No, we haven't had those in YEARS!" Any information you could give me >would be greatly appreciated. > >Thanks, > >Tim Long >astrl3@uaa.alaska.edu > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger@sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 13 17:12:46 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: Running a 220v computer in a 110v environment In-Reply-To: <991013162806.2360017c@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Oct 13, 99 04:28:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1523 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991013/d8f56b0b/attachment.ksh From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Wed Oct 13 17:40:15 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: collectors vs. enthusiasts In-Reply-To: <19991013215001.25258.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 13 Oct 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > In response to my rant: > > That's because eBay is where "collectors" hang out. Not people like us, > > for whom collector is an insufficient/inaccurate term. > > Tony Duell replied: > > Agreed. I maintain that I am _not_ a computer collector. Sure I have a > > number of old computers around the place. But I have them to learn about > > (how they work, etc), to restore, to use, etc. > > For want of a better word to describe what we do (as opposed to "collect"), > I used enthusiast. But if anyone has a better suggestion, I think it is > quite useful to make this distinction. Maybe what you are thinking of would be more along the lines of "speculator" or "investor"... I think "enthusiast" is a fine term for describing a hands-on hobby of any kind. But I'll admit that I'm a combination of both; I am an "enthusiast" in the sense that the real pleasure I get out of these machines comes from being able to operate them. But it's also a feeling of distinction from the rest of the herd, especially peering with the under-30 crowd who don't know what came before Visualxxx or Java or Shockwave, that makes it fun to learn the operations of old hardware. And finally, there is that ugly word "collecting," since I am a collector as well. I'm certainly not going to use my Atari 830, 835, 1030, XM301, and SX212 modems regularly! I have them all because they complete my collection of Atari modems. And I wanted to have a complete collection. And I just plain enjoy the fact that I know how to use the term program built into the 1030, or know how to build a ring detector for the 835. Fun! Fun! > > I certainly don't have them as an investment. > > > > Quite simply I'd be _very_ happy if the prices of all old computers fell > > to 0 tomorrow. 'Collectors' would be very distressed if that happened. "Speculators" would be very distressed. Not everyone collects for money or even to impress their friends. The bit of the mania that feeds my hobby that I call "collecting" is just a desire to gather together in one place (aka "collect") all of the members of a set. Like Atari 8-bit modems. And then Atari 8-bits. And then Atari...and so on. Perhaps someone with more insight into the human condition can tell us why some of us get so much pleasure out of stacking all of the blocks in proper, uniform order...or putting the last piece of a puzzle into place. Warm, fuzzy; "Ooh, this CX keypad was the last piece in my Atari 800-series collection! Let me just plug it in...bliss." And worth around two bucks, even on eBay. > I've never been into coin or stamp collecting, so I don't know whether > there are actually different mindsets for people collecting them as an > investment vs. some other reason. Since I've put my rant up on my web > page, maybe I should think about this some more and expand upon it. I think I can speak from the perspective of someone who does enjoy collecting things simply for the joy of collating all of the pieces into a whole set. Certain authors' first-editions are my other mania (if anyone has a 1st of Bukowski's 'Post Office' holding up the short leg of the couch, let me know...) and I know that others on the list have posted things about collecting eclectic things from old radios to Donald Duck memorabilia. It's the bridge over the gap between technician and historian. Collecting is not our enemy. Profit speculation is our enemy...or at least an annoyance for those of us without a budget... Cheers, Aaron From vaxman at uswest.net Wed Oct 13 17:33:52 1999 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: Stuff thats available In-Reply-To: <199910122323.XAA19334@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Oct 1999, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > external, with an original box? If I didnt have an original box, > and I wasnt already posting to the list, I wouldnt bother mentioning this, > but I know some people go crazy for original boxes. Frankly I think thats > crazy, but a person who is restoring a PDP8/e is probably the last person > to throw stones... > Do you have the original box for the PDP8/e :^) From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Wed Oct 13 17:56:54 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: EMULEX MD-23 Message-ID: <19991013.175658.194.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Guys: This is one of a very small number of SCSI bridge controllers that can handle 24Mhz ESDI drives. Does anyone have the docs for this? I need to know at least what the DIP switches do; I've figured out the addressing part, but I need to know if the sectoring can be adjusted, if it needs hard or soft sectoring, if the SCSI parity can be set, etc. Any info would be seriously appreciated. Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Wed Oct 13 18:14:44 1999 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: collectors vs. enthusiasts In-Reply-To: from Aaron Christopher Finney at "Oct 13, 1999 03:40:15 pm" Message-ID: <19991013231449Z433703-651+195@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > > > On 13 Oct 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > > > In response to my rant: > > > That's because eBay is where "collectors" hang out. Not people like us, > > > for whom collector is an insufficient/inaccurate term. > > > > Tony Duell replied: > > > Agreed. I maintain that I am _not_ a computer collector. Sure I have a > > > number of old computers around the place. But I have them to learn about > > > (how they work, etc), to restore, to use, etc. > > > > For want of a better word to describe what we do (as opposed to "collect"), > > I used enthusiast. But if anyone has a better suggestion, I think it is > > quite useful to make this distinction. > > Maybe what you are thinking of would be more along the lines of > "speculator" or "investor"... > I agree with this. I think the people on this list are at one end of the collector spectrum. They want all of their machines to be working and usable. I think the real difference is with the people who view old computers as an investment, and these are the people who are driving the prices crazy on eBay. They think they are going to go up dramatically in value over the short term. This spoils it for the people who are really interested in collecting, since it makes it that much harder to get things. Back quite a few years ago I was an avid book collector (I actually read the books too, so maybe I was an enthusiast :-)). Every 6 months or so there would be reports in the paper about the selling price of some rare book at an auction. After that there would be a bunch of "investors" at the local auctions bidding up all the books over 10 years old! They would gladly pay 10 to 100x the real value of the books thinking they were getting a real bargain. The sad thing about it is you knew those books would never return to the market, none of the investors would admit that they made a mistake and would hold on to them until they died. This was a real problem for collectors. Do you bid against them, so you can get the book you need, which will just move the market up more. Or, ignore them, and loose the chance the complete part of your collection. I think we are seeing some of the same thing in computers, and eBay (and other auction sites) make it easy for them. Hopefully this is just a passing fad. If enough of these "investors" get burned they may not return. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From AGoodwinDa at aol.com Wed Oct 13 18:30:16 1999 From: AGoodwinDa at aol.com (AGoodwinDa@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: HP3000 Message-ID: <0.8f0011ec.25367008@aol.com> What exactly is this? It's a dinosaur? I have an interview in a few days and this is the system they're running. Any help with what questions they might ask me about it? ther are also running IBM 4690 maybe for point-of-sale. Any help with questions and answers for this interview would be a blessing. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 13 17:48:47 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: pdp8/f (now Amiga poster) In-Reply-To: <199910132107.VAA20949@thorin.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Oct 13, 99 04:07:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2955 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991013/ffd8fd58/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 13 17:53:58 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: collectors vs. enthusiasts In-Reply-To: <19991013215001.25258.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Oct 13, 99 09:50:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1302 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991013/c43fcb4b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 13 18:09:58 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: collectors vs. enthusiasts In-Reply-To: from "Aaron Christopher Finney" at Oct 13, 99 03:40:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1878 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991014/f67c16da/attachment.ksh From mbg at world.std.com Wed Oct 13 18:32:04 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: Tape drive help and/or part needed (Attention DEC-heads!) Message-ID: <199910132332.TAA20499@world.std.com> >I think our KS10 has separate ports for the massbuss marked disk and >tape, but I'd have to double check to be sure I'm not thinking of >something else. Right... yours has the two ports... mine is the one which only has the Disk Massbus port. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Wed Oct 13 18:54:55 1999 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Kevin Stumpf/Unusual systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: collectors vs. enthusiasts Message-ID: <199910132354.TAA02053@phantom.golden.net> Great discussion, perhaps off-topic, but important. You, who are contributing, to this thread have endorsed an important part of my book since I deal with these and other, similar issues in The Guide to Collecting... Yours in good faith. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------- Kevin Stumpf * Unusual systems * www.unusual.on.ca +1.519.744.2900 * EST/EDT GMT - 5 Collector - Commercial Mainframes & Minicomputers from the 50s, 60s, & 70s and control panels and consoles. Author & Publisher - A Guide to Collecting Computers & Computer Collectibles * ISBN 0-9684244-0-6 . From musicman38 at mindspring.com Wed Oct 13 19:12:52 1999 From: musicman38 at mindspring.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: Amstrad PPC640 Message-ID: <009e01bf15d8$dda72060$b0348ad1@home> I have not found it on any of the internet museums. I wonder how common this machine was, and if it was marketed in the United States.. >A PPC640 ? At least that's what it was called in the UK. Yes this was a typo on my part, it is a PPC640.. >> I just purchased one at the local Thrift store yesterday for $4.04 >> and when I got to the checkout line the lady told me it was half price >> day so for only $2.02 I got this really cool Portable XT dual >> 720KB floppies, and a nice LCD screen.. > >It's a reasonable machine. I've been known to use mine as a terminal, or >to run a drive exerciser program (with the parallel port connected to >some signals of the drive-under-test), etc. I am very impressed with its design, for a machine made in 1987.. The keyboard is very nice Full size with numeric keypad and also 12 function keys, not very common in an XT class machine.. Very unsual how the keyboard folds up on it.. >I have the manuals for it (somewhere), including the software tech manual >and the service manual. It's pretty close to one of the Amstrad desktop >XT clones -- it's even got the same ASICs in it IIRC. I looked on the internet for some information on it, but there is nothing on it, with the exception of the dip switch for the video.. >> Very impressive machine for 1987.. >> And it appears to run on standard D batteries for portable use.. > >I thought it was C cells, but I might be wrong. Do you have the 2 plastic >tubes that hold the cells together? I've never tried running it on >batteries, since it takes 10 cells (!) and they don't last long. Yes you are right it uses 10 C cells for portable power, doubt if I will ever use it in portable mode, the external power supply is just fine.. >On the back are 2 power input connectors. The coaxial one is for a >12V-ish input, centre +ve, which is what I normally use (from my bench PSU). >The 14 pin DIN is a power input (all sorts of _regulated_ voltages) from >an Amstrad PC monitor. It's probably best to ignore this. >Oh yes, the power switch on the top is really a changeover from batteries >to external PSU. It seems a little odd at first. I believe this is why is was marked "AS-IS" and priced at $2.02 at the thrift store. They plugged it in and looked for a power switch and could not find one, and decided it was bad as it did not power up.. Not usually interested in any machine that is DOS based, but this one has my interest, atleast for the moment.. Amazing how much fun two bucks can bring... Phil.. From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Wed Oct 13 19:05:10 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: HP3000 In-Reply-To: <0.8f0011ec.25367008@aol.com> Message-ID: It really depends which model of 3000 and which version of MPE. For a good, quick overview of everything look at: http://www.3k.com (3K Associates HP3000 site) They've got all the info you need to get started (FAQ, etc.). If you need any help past that, I am a recent dabbler in the *classic* HP3000, and there are a couple of members on this list that have a lot of experience with these systems. In addition, there is a 3K mailing list (referenced on the above web site) and it's members are extraordinarily charitable and helpful. One guy actually sent me some tape cartridges and 6 9track reels of OS/software to help me get my system up and running, without even asking for money for shipping or the time it must have taken to write all those reels! Good luck, Aaron On Wed, 13 Oct 1999 AGoodwinDa@aol.com wrote: > What exactly is this? It's a dinosaur? I have an interview in a few days > and this is the system they're running. Any help with what questions they > might ask me about it? ther are also running IBM 4690 maybe for > point-of-sale. Any help with questions and answers for this interview would > be a blessing. > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 13 18:53:01 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: collectors vs. enthusiasts In-Reply-To: <199910132354.TAA02053@phantom.golden.net> from "Kevin Stumpf/Unusual systems" at Oct 13, 99 07:54:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 544 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991014/be808069/attachment.ksh From reyes at orion.ae.utexas.edu Wed Oct 13 21:16:55 1999 From: reyes at orion.ae.utexas.edu (Reuben Reyes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: Support your local Goodwill Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19991013191655.00d998a0@orion.ae.utexas.edu> I just came across this site. Here in Austin the Goodwill has vintage stuff for sale and stuff on ebay. http://www.eden.com/~arena/compworks/vintage.htm Not all are good deals but some are right like the Woz GS for $19.95. Ruben From musicman38 at mindspring.com Wed Oct 13 19:37:29 1999 From: musicman38 at mindspring.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: Collecting IBM Manuals Message-ID: <00a901bf15dc$4daf8480$b0348ad1@home> I was wondering if anyone else collects IBM Manuals. Since the early IBM XT's I have always been impressed with the excellent manuals that IBM produced for their personal computer series computers, and presently have about 20 manuals in my collection.. I have many of these manuals in my family room bookcase on display.. Excellent Binders in a standard Boxed/Sleeve cover.. Always looking for a DOS's that I don't already have.. I currently have in my collection. DOS's 2.00, 2.02, 2.10, 3.00, 3.20, 3.30 and 4.00 .. And even the IBM 3270 Emulator software.. In the early 1980's seem's everyone started making their manuals in the IBM format binders with Boxed Sleeves.. I also have a nice set of 4 manuals for the Packard Bell XT, looks like an IBM manual clone and very nicely done.. Most manuals after this era were just cheap paper bound.. Seems any manuals are just history now, with the advent of the CDROM... Phil.. From musicman38 at mindspring.com Wed Oct 13 20:17:51 1999 From: musicman38 at mindspring.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: Old 8086 Amstrad Message-ID: <00c601bf15e1$f0fb7720$b0348ad1@home> Finally found the Amstrad PPC640, here it is.. http://www.sinasohn.com/cgi-bin/clascomp/bldhtm.pl?computer=ppc640 Phil.. From jwebste3 at bellsouth.net Wed Oct 13 21:20:23 1999 From: jwebste3 at bellsouth.net (JAMES WEBSTER) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: Collecting IBM Manuals References: <00a901bf15dc$4daf8480$b0348ad1@home> Message-ID: <38053DE7.36DB@bellsouth.net> Phil, I have collected a few also. The XT and AT manuals have etched writing on the outside. PC-DOS 3.10 (don't have 3.00) and later in the 3.xx series have a paper cover. And I have PC-DOS 4.00 in the hard cover manual and the el-cheapo paper box. So I am assuming that this is where the hard cover manuals stopped. Am still looking for OS/2 v1.x versions. I really have no idea if there were individual releases, but am assuming that there were. And similiar to you, I have a real nice glass faced wooden book shelf for their display. Partly for outward viewing and partly to keep the dust out. I have 3 different variations of the XT manual. They all have the very same disks and DOS version, but the formats are different. The coolest one (even though it has a pink outside) has graphical and colorful cartoon characters that kind of guide you through the manual. And the paper has a high gloss finish. Jim Webster Phil Clayton wrote: > > I was wondering if anyone else collects IBM Manuals. > Since the early IBM XT's I have always been impressed > with the excellent manuals that IBM produced for their > personal computer series computers, and presently have about > 20 manuals in my collection.. > > I have many of these manuals in my family room bookcase > on display.. > > Excellent Binders in a standard Boxed/Sleeve cover.. > Always looking for a DOS's that I don't already have.. > I currently have in my collection. > DOS's 2.00, 2.02, 2.10, 3.00, 3.20, 3.30 and 4.00 .. > And even the IBM 3270 Emulator software.. > > In the early 1980's seem's everyone started making their > manuals in the IBM format binders with Boxed Sleeves.. > > I also have a nice set of 4 manuals for the Packard Bell XT, > looks like an IBM manual clone and very nicely done.. > > Most manuals after this era were just cheap paper bound.. > > Seems any manuals are just history now, with the advent of the > CDROM... > > Phil.. From g at kurico.com Wed Oct 13 20:11:35 1999 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: collectors vs. enthusiasts In-Reply-To: <19991013161049.22923.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <014301bf152b$9a25aa80$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> (daniel@internet.look.ca) Message-ID: > > It's crazy. I can't believe what they are paying on EBay for less > > than *incomplete* systems. I could see $1400 with drives, running, > > tested, manuals, etc... but a shell?????? > > > That's because eBay is where "collectors" hang out. Not people like > us, for whom collector is an insufficient/inaccurate term. Whereas I agree that there is a differentiation between the "collector" and the "enthusiast", I must take umbrage to the ,again, generalization of the person who pays "too much" on ebay automatically being "collector assholes, just because he had deep pockets". Are you implying that one must be of modest means to be an "enthusiast". If you saw a rare whatnot that you had always loved and wanted to tinker with, and had the financial means to acquire it, would you let it go to the scrap because you thought the asking price was too high? Would you let it go to a "collector asshole" because you thought the asking price was too high? If this is the case then you obviously didn't "want" the item that much or didn't have that much passion for it. Perhaps this activity can be further classified as "bargain vintage computer enthusiast". I am both an enthusiast and a collector. I try to get working what I can, but I don't stop acquiring if I know that I won't have time to get around to something. Maybe a computer has special meaning to me, and I just want to have one, and I have the financial resources to do it, does that make me an asshole? Now of course, there are people who would purchase something simply for the "coolness" of having it. With the advent of ebay, those who have deeper pockets are now playing the game. It's a real bummer having to pay lots for stuff that used to be given to you. But hey, that's life. Is the guy who drives a Ferrari an asshole because you drive a Ford (of course he could be, but not just because he drives the Ferrari of course). I fully understand the frustration, but venting it by making generalizations of those who happen to be better financially equipped than you, or are just willing to pay more for something than you, is just immature. I get just as bummed as anyone else when something that I've been wanting goes for more than what I'm willing to pay ($100 for an HP Integral, nope, don't think so, but dang, I've been wanting one for a very long time now), but at least it's not going to a scrapper (in my opinion, our true enemies). And yes, I know that those who don't have a passion for the item is more likely to scrap it if it's investment value/cool factor diminishes, so no come-backs about this are necessary. Another thing is this whole "if someone paid more than what I think something's worth, then they must be one of these slimeball collector folk" attitude. Before I discovered things like live auctions, ebay was the best/only (or so I thought at the time) to acquire things. If it is your only reasonable source, then of course you would be willing to pay more for something than someone who lives next door to Weird Stuff. Anyway, sorry for the long rant, but this whole "attitude" thing just irks me and I've been averaging like 4 hrs of sleep for the last couple of weeks (new baby + company being bought out) so I guess I'm a bit touchy (and not too coherent). So, whine about how hard it is to get stuff on cheap, fine, I do that all the time (just ask my wife). Call the guy who purchased an Altair for $2K an asshole/loser collector/not worthy, well, anyway, you now know how I feel. George From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 13 20:07:45 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: Collecting IBM Manuals In-Reply-To: <00a901bf15dc$4daf8480$b0348ad1@home> from "Phil Clayton" at Oct 13, 99 08:37:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 497 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991014/10e2cb4b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 13 20:19:10 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: collectors vs. enthusiasts In-Reply-To: from "George Currie" at Oct 13, 99 08:11:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2332 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991014/5bef435f/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Oct 13 20:35:45 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: collectors vs. enthusiasts In-Reply-To: (g@kurico.com) References: <014301bf152b$9a25aa80$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> (daniel@internet.look.ca) Message-ID: <19991014013545.27693.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > > That's because eBay is where "collectors" hang out. Not people like > us, for whom collector is an insufficient/inaccurate term. "George Currie" > Whereas I agree that there is a differentiation between the > "collector" and the "enthusiast", I must take umbrage to the ,again, > generalization of the person who pays "too much" on ebay > automatically being "collector assholes, just because he had deep > pockets". I don't believe I said anything of the sort. I said that "collectors" hang out on eBay, but I never said that enthusiasts don't. > Are you implying that one must be of modest means to be an > "enthusiast". No, I didn't. I've seen enthusiasts pay enormous amounts of money for certain items. I've done it myself. What I object to is having to do it because some non-enthusiast asshole has more dollars than sense. More about this later. > If you saw a rare whatnot that you had always loved > and wanted to tinker with, and had the financial means to acquire > it, would you let it go to the scrap because you thought the asking > price was too high? No. But I still might complain about the price. > Would you let it go to a "collector asshole" > because you thought the asking price was too high? Yes, if the "asking price" was "too high". "Too high" is a subjective measure. I never buy ANYTHING that I think is priced "too high". Of course, tommorow's value of "too high" may be different from today's. > Now of course, there are people who would purchase something > simply for the "coolness" of having it. Those are the people that buy perfectly good, working core memory planes, and destroy them to make wall hangings. Those are the people for whom I believe there should be a special place reserved in hell. I don't think I'm alone in that opinion. > I fully understand the frustration, but venting it by making > generalizations of those who happen to be better financially > equipped than you, or are just willing to pay more for something > than you, is just immature. If complaining about life's injustices is immature, then I'm immature. But then, so's most everyone else I know. In fact, aren't you complaining about me based on some generalization you've made regarding me? Sounds immature to me. :-) > Call the guy who purchased an Altair for $2K an > asshole/loser collector/not worthy, Depends on why he purchased it. Maybe he is, maybe not. But I've had personal experiences with people who I *KNOW* were just "collectors" and had no interest in machines other than because they are "collectable". I.e., they had no experience with the particular machine, and no real interest in learning about it. If you don't think those people are assholes, fine. I do. Others suggested distinguishing between people who view collecting as an "investment", vs. people who collect for completeness. I don't see that as being nearly as useful a distinction, because there are two kinds of people who collect for completeness. Using the Atari 8-bit example: 1) People who want every last Atari model and peripheral because they actually like and care about Ataris. That still maps to my "enthusiast" category. 2) People who want every last Atari model and peripheral because they happen to think they are collectable, even though they have no real personal interest in Atari stuff. And they don't really care whether the machine is in working order, or about keeping it that way if it is. They may or may not think it is an investment. Yes, I've met people like that. And that's who I was referring to as a "collector". Yes, I consider those people to be assholes. That's my opinion, and I'm not trying to force it on anyone else. Obviously I should be more precise in my terminology: I divide people buying old computers into "enthusiasts" (who might be collectors) and "non-enthusiast collectors" (who may or may not be "investors"). The fact that some collectors are also enthusiasts does not make me like the "non-enthusiast collectors". Eric From musicman38 at mindspring.com Wed Oct 13 21:02:16 1999 From: musicman38 at mindspring.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: Collecting IBM Manuals Message-ID: <00d101bf15e8$25b9e900$b0348ad1@home> Glad to hear that others find value in these historical manuals.. > I have collected a few also. The XT and AT manuals have >etched writing on the outside. PC-DOS 3.10 (don't have >3.00) and later in the 3.xx series have a paper cover. >And I have PC-DOS 4.00 in the hard cover manual and the >el-cheapo paper box. So I am assuming that this is where >the hard cover manuals stopped. I think you are right, I have IBM DOS 5.0 but its manual is a Paperback type.. >I have a real nice glass faced wooden book shelf for their display. >Partly for outward viewing and partly to keep the dust out. My collection is centered in the family room and is always the subject of conversation when I have guests over.. All my other reference books and manuals are filed in the garage so I can get to them if I need one in a hurry.. And I have many Boxes full of them.. Phil.. From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 13 20:57:40 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: collectors vs. enthusiasts Message-ID: <199910140157.VAA20187@world.std.com> WHat people pay for something important is their business and generally good as anything with cash value is less likely to fill dumpsters (trashbins). Yes, for the guy looking for the $10 item it may be more expensive but then again it may be for sale instead of long gone. To me a 8e case/fp for more than a few hundred is out of my "range", but if it were exceptional in condition of one of the oddball customer special color schemes there may be something to warrent it. They were not that cheap when new! It all according to what you want/need. Also consider the buyer may have a complete 8E and no box. There are people out there still using them for CNC and other uses where $1000 is cheap for spares when compared to trying to upgrade to a PC! Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Oct 1999, emanuel stiebler wrote: > I always used different terminals on different computers. But just an idea, > why don't you get something with XWindows, so you could see all this > sessions on one screen ? > > cheers, > emanuel That's exactly what I'm working on. Given the large number of UN*X machines I have (suns, vaxen, x86s..) I'm working on this setup: My multiport serial card goes into my p166 Linux box. My SparcII displays (over the ethernet) kermit sessions for each of the serial ports in a different window (it has a 19" monitor on it that's actually quite nice to read). A mass of serial cables goes from one side of the room to the other... Kevin From marvin at rain.org Wed Oct 13 22:02:54 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: collectors vs. enthusiasts References: Message-ID: <380547DE.6DDFD7A1@rain.org> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > > It's crazy. I can't believe what they are paying on EBay for less > > > > than *incomplete* systems. I could see $1400 with drives, running, > > > > tested, manuals, etc... but a shell?????? > > > > > > > > > That's because eBay is where "collectors" hang out. Not people like > > > us, for whom collector is an insufficient/inaccurate term. > > > > Whereas I agree that there is a differentiation between the > > "collector" and the "enthusiast", I must take umbrage to the ,again, > > generalization of the person who pays "too much" on ebay > > automatically being "collector assholes, just because he had deep > > pockets". > > My main objection to e-bay (and to most other forms of selling, > actually), is that I don't know who the item is going to be sold to. The same could be said about newcomers to this list, and just about anyone I don't know. This is something only time will correct. The same goes on ebay. After a while, you see a lot of the same people bidding on stuff. The other not so minor detail is that people that pay for this stuff will probably not send it to that junkyard in the sky. From marvin at rain.org Wed Oct 13 22:08:15 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:52 2005 Subject: Collecting IBM Manuals References: <00a901bf15dc$4daf8480$b0348ad1@home> Message-ID: <3805491F.EF5CF08@rain.org> Phil Clayton wrote: > > I was wondering if anyone else collects IBM Manuals. > Since the early IBM XT's I have always been impressed > with the excellent manuals that IBM produced for their > personal computer series computers, and presently have about > 20 manuals in my collection.. I have quite a few IBM manuals/softward and started collecting them some years ago. I also have been collecting the DRI manuals. The collection presently numbers probably about 50 or so (don't really know since I usually remember them by what they are, not how many.) From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Wed Oct 13 22:16:00 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: Desperate...Help...HP 9-track drive... Message-ID: Hi all, Frustration! I just got around to trying to install the OS tapes for my HP3K...and the drive doesn't want to load anymore. I had originally tested it after assembling the HP-IB interface boards with a blank tape, and it loaded and found BOT just fine. Now that I finally get the OS tapes, it's stopped working... It's an HP 7974 with the hp-ib interface. I string the tape and push load, the tension arms engage, it spins, then the lcd reads "*F5" (or "*FS" - it's an lcd...) and eventually returns to "OK". But of course the tape's not loaded, and I have to manually push reset to get it to attempt loading again. Anyone have any ideas? The Big Question: Does anyone have any docs/printsets for this machine? I'd like to know more about the self-diagnostic functions and dip switch settings on the controller board. Cheers, Aaron From daniel at internet.look.ca Wed Oct 13 22:16:23 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: collectors vs. enthusiasts - I GOT ONE!!!!! Message-ID: <001f01bf15f2$8002cf80$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 9:52 PM Subject: Re: collectors vs. enthusiasts >I wrote: >> >> That's because eBay is where "collectors" hang out. Not people like >> us, for whom collector is an insufficient/inaccurate term. > >"George Currie" >> Whereas I agree that there is a differentiation between the >> "collector" and the "enthusiast", I must take umbrage to the ,again, >> generalization of the person who pays "too much" on ebay >> automatically being "collector assholes, just because he had deep >> pockets". > >I don't believe I said anything of the sort. I said that "collectors" >hang out on eBay, but I never said that enthusiasts don't. > >> Are you implying that one must be of modest means to be an >> "enthusiast". > >No, I didn't. I've seen enthusiasts pay enormous amounts of money >for certain items. I've done it myself. What I object to is having >to do it because some non-enthusiast asshole has more dollars than >sense. More about this later. My friend... That is what auctions are all about.. and it's not limited to computers. When I was 17 I was at the Interhauler Yauht backruptsy auction. They had an IBM mainframe and a mini. As the mini was old I was hoping to pick it up for $100 (I was a student). I placed a bid of $50. when all of a sudden the owner from "Kitchens Construction" thinks the machine can be used and placed a bid of $500! I did not have $500 on me.... he was arrogant about the win of his auction... smiled at me and left the room. Little did he know the next auction was for the DISKPACKS for *his* computer. I bought them for $60. I went out to him RIGHT after he won the auction and asked him if he won the bid on the computer. He smurked at me and said "Of Course". I told him (and I can remember my exact words): "Good, I just bought all the software for YOUR computer so I guess you WON'T be using it". His face dropped! He looked down and walked over to the auctioneer to complain. When he couldn't get his way he came over to me and asked me what I was going to do with them. I told him I had a PDP 11 and was going to FORMAT the platters and use them on my system. I knew who he was, I let him stu all night and called him the next day. He bought the diskpacks without the case for $750! > >> If you saw a rare whatnot that you had always loved >> and wanted to tinker with, and had the financial means to acquire >> it, would you let it go to the scrap because you thought the asking >> price was too high? > >No. But I still might complain about the price. > >> Would you let it go to a "collector asshole" >> because you thought the asking price was too high? > >Yes, if the "asking price" was "too high". "Too high" is a >subjective measure. I never buy ANYTHING that I think is priced >"too high". Of course, tommorow's value of "too high" may be >different from today's. > >> Now of course, there are people who would purchase something >> simply for the "coolness" of having it. > >Those are the people that buy perfectly good, working core memory >planes, and destroy them to make wall hangings. Those are the >people for whom I believe there should be a special place reserved >in hell. I don't think I'm alone in that opinion. > >> I fully understand the frustration, but venting it by making >> generalizations of those who happen to be better financially >> equipped than you, or are just willing to pay more for something >> than you, is just immature. > >If complaining about life's injustices is immature, then I'm >immature. But then, so's most everyone else I know. > >In fact, aren't you complaining about me based on some generalization >you've made regarding me? Sounds immature to me. :-) > >> Call the guy who purchased an Altair for $2K an >> asshole/loser collector/not worthy, > >Depends on why he purchased it. Maybe he is, maybe not. But I've >had personal experiences with people who I *KNOW* were just >"collectors" and had no interest in machines other than because >they are "collectable". I.e., they had no experience with the >particular machine, and no real interest in learning about it. >If you don't think those people are assholes, fine. I do. > >Others suggested distinguishing between people who view collecting >as an "investment", vs. people who collect for completeness. I >don't see that as being nearly as useful a distinction, because >there are two kinds of people who collect for completeness. Using >the Atari 8-bit example: > >1) People who want every last Atari model and peripheral because > they actually like and care about Ataris. That still maps to > my "enthusiast" category. > >2) People who want every last Atari model and peripheral because they > happen to think they are collectable, even though they have no real > personal interest in Atari stuff. And they don't really care > whether the machine is in working order, or about keeping it that > way if it is. They may or may not think it is an investment. Yes, > I've met people like that. And that's who I was referring to as a > "collector". Yes, I consider those people to be assholes. That's > my opinion, and I'm not trying to force it on anyone else. > >Obviously I should be more precise in my terminology: I divide people >buying old computers into "enthusiasts" (who might be collectors) and >"non-enthusiast collectors" (who may or may not be "investors"). The >fact that some collectors are also enthusiasts does not make me like the >"non-enthusiast collectors". > >Eric > From daniel at internet.look.ca Wed Oct 13 22:18:04 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: collectors vs. enthusiasts Message-ID: <002601bf15f2$bc0e83c0$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> George, I agree 100%. If you want something that bad you have to pay for it. Pure and simple. -----Original Message----- From: George Currie To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 9:13 PM Subject: Re: collectors vs. enthusiasts > > It's crazy. I can't believe what they are paying on EBay for less > > than *incomplete* systems. I could see $1400 with drives, running, > > tested, manuals, etc... but a shell?????? > > > That's because eBay is where "collectors" hang out. Not people like > us, for whom collector is an insufficient/inaccurate term. Whereas I agree that there is a differentiation between the "collector" and the "enthusiast", I must take umbrage to the ,again, generalization of the person who pays "too much" on ebay automatically being "collector assholes, just because he had deep pockets". Are you implying that one must be of modest means to be an "enthusiast". If you saw a rare whatnot that you had always loved and wanted to tinker with, and had the financial means to acquire it, would you let it go to the scrap because you thought the asking price was too high? Would you let it go to a "collector asshole" because you thought the asking price was too high? If this is the case then you obviously didn't "want" the item that much or didn't have that much passion for it. Perhaps this activity can be further classified as "bargain vintage computer enthusiast". I am both an enthusiast and a collector. I try to get working what I can, but I don't stop acquiring if I know that I won't have time to get around to something. Maybe a computer has special meaning to me, and I just want to have one, and I have the financial resources to do it, does that make me an asshole? Now of course, there are people who would purchase something simply for the "coolness" of having it. With the advent of ebay, those who have deeper pockets are now playing the game. It's a real bummer having to pay lots for stuff that used to be given to you. But hey, that's life. Is the guy who drives a Ferrari an asshole because you drive a Ford (of course he could be, but not just because he drives the Ferrari of course). I fully understand the frustration, but venting it by making generalizations of those who happen to be better financially equipped than you, or are just willing to pay more for something than you, is just immature. I get just as bummed as anyone else when something that I've been wanting goes for more than what I'm willing to pay ($100 for an HP Integral, nope, don't think so, but dang, I've been wanting one for a very long time now), but at least it's not going to a scrapper (in my opinion, our true enemies). And yes, I know that those who don't have a passion for the item is more likely to scrap it if it's investment value/cool factor diminishes, so no come-backs about this are necessary. Another thing is this whole "if someone paid more than what I think something's worth, then they must be one of these slimeball collector folk" attitude. Before I discovered things like live auctions, ebay was the best/only (or so I thought at the time) to acquire things. If it is your only reasonable source, then of course you would be willing to pay more for something than someone who lives next door to Weird Stuff. Anyway, sorry for the long rant, but this whole "attitude" thing just irks me and I've been averaging like 4 hrs of sleep for the last couple of weeks (new baby + company being bought out) so I guess I'm a bit touchy (and not too coherent). So, whine about how hard it is to get stuff on cheap, fine, I do that all the time (just ask my wife). Call the guy who purchased an Altair for $2K an asshole/loser collector/not worthy, well, anyway, you now know how I feel. George From daniel at internet.look.ca Wed Oct 13 22:21:58 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: collectors vs. enthusiasts Message-ID: <002d01bf15f3$47e09500$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> -----Original Message----- From: Marvin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 11:02 PM Subject: Re: collectors vs. enthusiasts > > >Tony Duell wrote: >> >> > >> > > > It's crazy. I can't believe what they are paying on EBay for less >> > > > than *incomplete* systems. I could see $1400 with drives, running, >> > > > tested, manuals, etc... but a shell?????? >> > > >> > > >> > > That's because eBay is where "collectors" hang out. Not people like >> > > us, for whom collector is an insufficient/inaccurate term. >> > >> > Whereas I agree that there is a differentiation between the >> > "collector" and the "enthusiast", I must take umbrage to the ,again, >> > generalization of the person who pays "too much" on ebay >> > automatically being "collector assholes, just because he had deep >> > pockets". >> >> My main objection to e-bay (and to most other forms of selling, >> actually), is that I don't know who the item is going to be sold to. > >The same could be said about newcomers to this list, and just about anyone I >don't know. This is something only time will correct. The same goes on ebay. >After a while, you see a lot of the same people bidding on stuff. The other >not so minor detail is that people that pay for this stuff will probably not >send it to that junkyard in the sky. > Collecting computers is in it's infancy (for the general population). I don't think owning an old mini with front panel switches will ever go out of style. Stamps first, then cars, now computers.... I don't see these EBayers leaving anytime soon. Just look at the other items... IE: Monopoly games. A 1933 board game fetched $30-40 last year, this year it's over a $100. As more people get online there will be more of that *one* person that just HAS to have the item on the auction block. and for computers... how many Silicon Valley Execs are retiring this year??? From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Oct 13 22:44:26 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: Classic BYTEs for Sale Message-ID: I have a pretty complete series of BYTEs from 1982 until 1998 that need to find a new library to add their immense body of computer history knowledge to. Pricing does not include shipping unless specifically mentioned. Priority will go to buyers wanting to take entire runs (ie. someone wanting to buy an entire year will get priority over someone wanting to buy one or two issues for that year). Please reply directly to or . Replies to this message to ClassicCmp will not even be seen by me, and will therefore be ignored. Repeat: REPLIES TO CLASSICCMP WILL BE IGNORED. APR,MAY/1982 - $2.00 each JAN-DEC/83 - $2.00 each or $18 for the whole set JAN-DEC/84 - $2.00 each or $18 for the whole set JAN-DEC/85 - $1.50 each or $15 for the whole set JAN-DEC/86 - $1.00 each or $12 for the whole set JAN-DEC/87 - $0.75 each or $5 for the whole set JAN-DEC/88 - $0.50 each or $5 for the whole set JAN-DEC/89 - $0.50 each or $5 for the whole set JAN-DEC/90 - 1.2 * shipping (whole set only please) JAN-DEC/91 - 1.2 * shipping (whole set only please) JAN-DEC/92 - 1.2 * shipping (whole set only please) JAN-DEC/93 - 1.2 * shipping (whole set only please) JAN-DEC/94 - 1.2 * shipping (whole set only please) JAN-DEC/95 - 1.2 * shipping (whole set only please) Also available are these special editions: 1984 IBM PC Special Issue: Guide to the IBM PCs - $3.00 1985 IBM PC Special Issue: Guide to the IBM PCs - $2.00 1986 Extra Edition Guide to the IBM PCs - $1.00 1987 Extra Edition Guide to the IBM PCs - $1.00 1987 Bonus Edition: Applications Software Today - $1.00 1988 IBM Special Edition - $1.00 1989 IBM Special Edition: Redefining the Standards - $1.00 1990 IBM Special Edition: Guideposts for the 90s - $1.00 1991 Extra Edition: Outlook '92 - $1.00 1992 Special Issue: Essential Guide to Windows - $3.00 1992 Special Issue: Essential Guide to Portable Computing - $1.00 1993 Spring '93 Special Issue: Essential Guide to Windows - $1.00 Remember: Reply to or . To help you decide which issues you want, here's a handy guide that shows the issue topic that is printed on the binding of each issue: 04/82: Human Factors Engineering 08/82: Logo 01/83: Looking Ahead 02/83: Standards 03/83: Mass Storage 04/83: New Chips 05/83: The Electronic Office 06/83: 16-bit Designs 07/83: Videotex 08/83: The C Language 09/83: Portable Computers 10/83: Unix 11/83: Inside the IBM PC 12/83: Easy Software 01/84: 1984 and Beyond 02/84: Benchmarks 03/84: Simulation 04/84: Real-World Interfacing 05/84: Computers and the Professions 06/84: Computers and Education 07/84: Computers and Video 08/84: Modula-2 09/84: Computer Graphics 10/84: Databases 11/84: New Chips 12/84: Communications/Byte Guide to Apple PCs 01/85: Through the Hourglass 02/85: Computing and the Sciences 03/85: Bargain Computing 04/85: Artificial Intelligence 05/85: Multiprocessing 06/85: Programming Techniques 07/85: Computers and Space 08/85: Declarative Languages 09/85: Homebrewing/10th Anniversary (* great historical issue!) 10/85: Simulating Society 11/85: Graphics Hardware 12/85: Computer Conferencing 01/86: Robotics 02/86: Text Processing 03/86: Homebound Computing 04/86: Number Crunching 05/86: Mass Sotrage 06/86: Computers and Music 07/86: Engineer's Toolbox 08/86: Object-Oriented Languages 09/86: The 68000 Family 10/86: Public Domain Powerhouses 11/86: Knowledge Representation 12/86: Graphics Algorithms 01/87: Programmable Hardware 02/87: Educational Computing 03/87: Image Processing 04/87: Instruction Set Strategies 05/87: Desktop Publishing * Internal Modems 06/87: CAD * Mice * 12-Mhz ATs * IBM PS/2 Family 07/87: LANs * IBM PS/2 Models 30,50,60 * CAD Software 08/87: Prolog * 386 Hardware and Software 09/87: Printer Technologies * 80386 System Software 10/87: Heuristic Algorithms * Tandy's New Lineup 11/87: Accelerator Boards * Workstations 12/87: AT Memory Boards * Natural Language Processing 01/88: Database Software * Managing Megabytes 02/88: 14 Multiscan Monitors * LISP 03/88: New Math Coprocessors * Enhanced EGA/VGA Boards 04/88: Memory Management * 24-pin Printers 05/88: CPU Architectures * Word Processors 06/88: New Benchmarks * Ultra-High-Speed Modems 07/88: Multitasking * Fast 40-megabyte Hard Disks 08/88: The C Language * Special Macintosh Supplement 09/88: Display Technology * Postscript Printers 10/88: Hypertext * Affordable 80386s 11/88: Parallel Processing * NeXT * Project Management 12/88: Mac Supplement * Groupware * Benchmark Update 01/89: PC Communications * Annual Awards * Digitizing Tablets 02/89: Personal Workstations * C Compilers * Mac SE/30 03/89: Mac Supplement * 286 vs. 386SX * Object-Oriented Programming 04/89: CASE * UPSes * Graphics Supplement 05/89: Unix * CAD * Technology Breakthroughs 06/89: Mac Supplement * Security * Modems 07/89: 12 GUIs * LAN OSes * Distributed Processing 08/89: 80386-based Portables * Neural Networks * Mac Supplement 09/89: Apricot 80486 * Multiuser Operating Systems * Database Trends 10/89: Mac Portable * Optical Technologies * Optical Storage 11/89: Inside EISA * Beyond VGA * 32 Bits and Above 12/89: 5 New Laptops * Sound and Image Processing * CASE Tools 01/90: Annual Awards * Harddisk Utilities * State of Chips 02/90: Annual Index * Multimedia * Great Spreadsheets 03/90: 26 VGA Monitors * Compaq Systempro * Life within 1 Megabyte 04/90: OS/2 2.0 * Applications Architecture * 386 Roundup 05/90: SQL Servers * Amiga 3000 * Global Text Displays 06/90: Windows 3.0 * Networking * Low-cost LANs 07/90: Computing Without Keyboards * Low-cost Lasers * Reader's Awards 08/90: 386SX Showdown * Inside Windows 3.0 * End-user Programming 09/90: 15th Anniversary Summit * WYSIWYG Word Processors 10/90: DTP * Object-Oriented Computing * Knowledge Engineering 11/90: Mass Storage * Large SCSI Drives * FPUs 12/90: Laser Printer Alternatives * Advanced Graphics 01/91: Annual Awards * Artificial Intelligence * Caching Controllers 02/91: Laptop Technologies * 15 Notebook Computers 03/91: E-mail Software * Network Management * DOS Secrets 04/91: OCR Tools * Soviet Computing * Paperless Offices 05/91: Managing Gigabytes * Nineteen 486/33s * HP 95LX 06/91: 486SX vs. Am386-40 * SX Notebooks * Desktop Multiprocessing 07/91: DOS 5.0 * Wide-Area Networks * Sparc Clones 08/91: Safe Data * 10 Years of Smalltalk * NCR's Pen-based Portable 09/91: 64-bit Computing * 3rd-Generation CD-ROMs * Group Schedulers 10/91: Printer Technologies * Modularity * 9600-BPS Modems 11/91: Interoperability * Momenta * New Macs 12/91: OS/2 2.0 * Multimedia * Presentation Graphics 01/92: 1991 Awards * Databases * Cross-platform Development 02/92: Tomorrow's Processors * PowerPC * Network Servers 03/92: Windows on the Road * Memory & Storage * Spreadsheets 04/92: Natural I/O * Business Graphics * Windows 3.1 05/92: 3-D Computing * Intel's 486DX2 * High-resolution Monitors 06/92: Text Management * Color Printers * Windows Special Report 07/92: Apple's PDA * Portable Libraries * Flatbed Scanners 08/92: Network Analysis Tools * Postscript Printers * Parallel Computing 09/92: Unix * Optical Computing * Notebooks 10/92: Windows NT * Local Bus * Removable Storage 11/92: DSPs * Low-cost PCs * Ultimate Workstations 12/92: 66-Mhz 486DX2s * CPU CHoices * Objects and Users 01/93: 1992 Awards * Machine Translations * Windows Accelerators 02/93: Recordable CD-ROM * Fax Servers * Mobile Communications 03/93: E-mail * Groupware * 600-DPI Printers 04/93: Fighting Fatware * Compression * Visualization 05/93: Pentium * Lab Report: 126 Printers * Security 06/93: Windows * Client/Server Technology * Fast 486s 07/93: Pentium PCs * Data Acquisition * Fast Modems 08/93: PowerPC * 100 Ethernet Cards * Tomorrow's Networks 09/93: Video Computing * Hard Drives * Digital Documents 10/93: First PDAs * Pen and Voice * Notebooks 11/93: Special Report: Windows & OS/2 * Graphics Technology * Printers 12/93: WANs * High-speed 486s * Printer Technology 01/94: Advanced Operating Systems * New Processors * Monitors 02/94: Compression * Graphics Accelerators * Compilers 03/94: The Data Highway * 486-based Portables * Mass Storage 04/94: PowerPCs * Pentium/486 Systems * Object Database Systems 05/94: Componentware * Printers * Wireless Communications 06/94: New 80x86s * Ethernet Adapters * Distributed Computing 07/94: PC-Telephony * 14.4-Kbps Modems * Groupware 08/94: Document Management * High-end Pentiums * Bus Technologies 09/94: Plug and Play * Fast CD-ROM Drives * Internetworking 10/94: Intelligent Networks * Portable Systems * Data Acquisition 11/94: Special Report: Beyond Windows * Printers * New CPUs 12/94: Apple's Gamble * 90-Mhz Pentiums * Networking 01/95: Small-office Computing * Monitors * Color Management 02/95: The New Novell * Graphics Accelerators * Pattern Recognition 03/95: Technology Reshapes Learning * Tape Drives * SOftware Agents 04/95: Intel's P6 * Internet Firewalls * Client/Server Computing 05/95: Mainframes of the Future * Printers * Digital Video 06/95: Mobile Computing * V.34 Modems * Memory Technologies 07/95: The Internet * Ethernet Switching Hubs * 3-D Graphics 08/95: Microsoft * Windows 95 * Internet Servers * Groupware 09/95: 20th Anniversary Special Issue 11/95: Chips * Operating Systems * Network Printers 12/95: Software Reliability * 133 Mhz Pentiums * Games 01/96: Supercomputers * Best of Comdex * Componentware 03/96: Web PC * Web Servers * Multimedia 04/96: Future Computers * Windows 95 * Middleware 05/96: Unix vs. NT * Mobile Computing * WANs 06/96: Electric Money * Ink-jets * Recordable CDs 07/96: Group War * NT * Reader's Choice Awards 08/96: Business on the Net * Tape Libraries * ATM 09/96: No-wait Web * Telephony Boards * Software Quality 10/96: 3-D For Everyone * Notebooks * Network Design 11/96: Java Chips * Dual Pentium Pros * Cairo, Copland, 64-bit Unix 12/96: How Chips Changed the World * Network Printers 01/97: Can Java Replace Windows? * 3-D Workstations * Netware 4.11 04/97: Network Computers * Web Componentware * Java 1.1 05/97: NT 5.0 * SMP Servers * Hostile Applets 06/97: Digital IDs * 56K Modems * Database Programming 07/97: New User Interface * MMX Systems * Memphis 08/97: Energize Your Intranet * New Chips * Extend Your Enterprise 09/97: ActiveX Demystified * 300-Mhz Pentium IIs * Universal Inbox 10/97: Your Next Net * 8 Java Solutions * Pentium II with AGP 11/97: The Orbiting Internet * MMX Notebooks * Secure Windows NT 12/97: Beyond Pentium II * Editor's Choice * Network Computers 01/98: 1998's Top Technologies * 300-Mhz Pentium IIs * Cable Modems 02/98: Disposable PCs * Internet2 * Storage Report 03/98: Reinventing the Web * Netware 5 * 3-D Boards 04/98: Crash-proof Computing * Benchmarks * Color Lasers Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. VCF East? VCF Europe!? YOU BETCHA!! Stay tuned for more information or contact me to find out how you can participate http://www.vintage.org From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Wed Oct 13 23:00:17 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: collectors vs. enthusiasts - I GOT ONE!!!!! In-Reply-To: <001f01bf15f2$8002cf80$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, daniel wrote: > My friend... That is what auctions are all about.. and it's not limited to > computers. > > When I was 17 I was at the Interhauler Yauht backruptsy auction. They had an > IBM mainframe and a mini. As the mini was old I was hoping to pick it up for > $100 (I was a student). I placed a bid of $50. when all of a sudden the > owner from "Kitchens Construction" thinks the machine can be used and placed > a bid of $500! I did not have $500 on me.... he was arrogant about the win > of his auction... smiled at me and left the room. Little did he know the > next auction was for the DISKPACKS for *his* computer. I bought them for > $60. I went out to him RIGHT after he won the auction and asked him if he > won the bid on the computer. He smurked at me and said "Of Course". I told > him (and I can remember my exact words): "Good, I just bought all the > software for YOUR computer so I guess you WON'T be using it". > > His face dropped! He looked down and walked over to the auctioneer to > complain. When he couldn't get his way he came over to me and asked me what > I was going to do with them. I told him I had a PDP 11 and was going to > FORMAT the platters and use them on my system. I knew who he was, I let him > stu all night and called him the next day. He bought the diskpacks without > the case for $750! Let me preface by saying that sometimes I am a total asshole for no good reason... I was at a large auction out in the Valley where they had a good quantity of Sparc and SGI stuff. I had my eye on a couple of systems, with an eyewitness report that the previous day had seen SS10/40mhz systems with monitors going for $300-$500. So the auction winds down and finally comes around to the one system I'm *most* interested in, a well-configured SS10. So I start at $200...no match. Going once...twice...$300. So I go $400. He goes $500. You get the picture, all the way up to me bidding $1100. Way more than it should have gone for, but he still bid $1300 and took it. Looking across the room, I saw him grinning at me and nudging his adolescent grandson. Irritated and excited from 5 cups of coffee and the heat of the action, I approached him and asked if he realized that he paid more than he could have bought the same system elsewhere. Then he said it... "My grandson told me it would be a great system to run NT on for my business." I gave him my business card and told him to call me the following week if he wanted to. When he called, he offered to sell me the whole system for $1000. I refused. He offered it for $800. I refused. Inane chattering back and forth. He offered it for $500. I almost agreed, felt the bile rise up in my mouth again and refused. He asked what I'd be willing to pay and I offered him $200, telling him that it was what I would have paid for the system had he not bid on it. He hung up on me...and never called back. From dchopper at mindspring.com Wed Oct 13 22:59:04 1999 From: dchopper at mindspring.com (David Hopper) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: Panasonic HHC question Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991013235904.0079b1d0@pop.mindspring.com> I hope this is the correct place to ask this question. If not, please direct me elsewhere. Is there anyone out there that is familiar with the little Panasonic Hand Held Computer (RL-H1000 series) that came out in the early eighties? More specifically, can it be adapted to use some type of conventional printer to bypass the little thermal printer (RL-P1004A) that was designed for it? There seems to be a surprising number of these computers still in use out there in many two-way radio shops. The HHC was the heart of GE's 'suitcase programmer' for setting the frequencies in their early models of synthesized radios. The print heads in these printers fail, so you can't get a printout of the frequency information that has been read from the radio or going to be written into the radio. It does not make the programmer useless, but it would be handy to be able to get hard copies again. Thanks for any help! - David - From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Oct 13 23:01:18 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: Floppy disks again In-Reply-To: allisonp@world.std.com "Re: Floppy disks again" (Oct 13, 8:34) References: Message-ID: <9910140501.ZM10928@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 13, 8:34, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > I know when NS* offered > the DD controller one option was 96tpi twosided drives and it was called > quad density as it was 800k and the same controller single density on > a 35track single sided (the introductory format) was a whopping 90k! I remember *them* well. And I remember the awe at getting Apple DOS 3.3 140K on the same drive (well, same SS 35 tracks, anyway). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Oct 13 23:07:35 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: Floppy disks again In-Reply-To: Don Maslin "Re: Floppy disks again" (Oct 13, 11:21) References: Message-ID: <9910140507.ZM10938@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 13, 11:21, Don Maslin wrote: > On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > Yes, some people did call this QD, but > > it isn't a different density at all -- the misnomer comes from people who > > don't understand what the words mean. Your numbers for 180K, 360K, etc, > > Pete, since the term QD or Quad Density dates back to at least the North > Star Horizon, I would submit that it was not people who didn't > understand but rather who chose to ignore the real meaning and to use > the term as it was descriptive of the expanded disk capacity. I remember the use, but it's still a misnomer, and I'm not altogether convinced. Most non-N* people didn't call those disks QD, as far as I remember. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Wed Oct 13 23:37:50 1999 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: Desperate...Help...HP 9-track drive... In-Reply-To: from Aaron Christopher Finney at "Oct 13, 1999 08:16:00 pm" Message-ID: <19991014043754Z433729-652+228@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > Hi all, > > Frustration! I just got around to trying to install the OS tapes for my > HP3K...and the drive doesn't want to load anymore. I had originally tested > it after assembling the HP-IB interface boards with a blank tape, and it > loaded and found BOT just fine. Now that I finally get the OS tapes, it's > stopped working... > > It's an HP 7974 with the hp-ib interface. I string the tape and push load, > the tension arms engage, it spins, then the lcd reads "*F5" (or "*FS" - > it's an lcd...) and eventually returns to "OK". But of course the tape's > not loaded, and I have to manually push reset to get it to attempt loading > again. Anyone have any ideas? > > The Big Question: Does anyone have any docs/printsets for this machine? > I'd like to know more about the self-diagnostic functions and dip switch > settings on the controller board. > This might sound obvious, but did you check that there is a load point on the tape? Check the blank tape again, to see whether its the tape or the drive. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From daniel at internet.look.ca Wed Oct 13 23:37:22 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: I have a M7295 free for the taking (Massbus Control RH11) Message-ID: <000d01bf15fd$cf7195a0$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> untested as I never have had a MASSBUS unit. Just email daniel@internet.look.ca -----Original Message----- From: Pete Turnbull To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, October 14, 1999 12:07 AM Subject: Re: Floppy disks again >On Oct 13, 8:34, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > >> I know when NS* offered >> the DD controller one option was 96tpi twosided drives and it was called >> quad density as it was 800k and the same controller single density on >> a 35track single sided (the introductory format) was a whopping 90k! > >I remember *them* well. And I remember the awe at getting Apple DOS 3.3 >140K on the same drive (well, same SS 35 tracks, anyway). > >-- > >Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York > From jpl15 at netcom.com Thu Oct 14 00:05:52 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: Desperate...Help...HP 9-track drive... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Disconnect the interface cables and see if she'll load up standalone. Also, Mark Green has a Very Good bit of advice as well. (hint: is there a BOT reflector on the tape? I had to take apart my Cipher 880 and dredge the tape out by hand because the BOT marker had fallen off and the drive became disoriented...) Computer Collector Rant Follows: One of the things I like the least about my collection of Olde Iron, is the amount of time I seem to have to spend diagnosing/repairing vs. enjoying the system. I am a BSEE, and have spent a good deal of my career fixing broken things, and I've paid some dues as a programmer and systems analyst, too... but it's seldom I turn on a system that it doesn't woof it's cookies and go casters up on me. Now: don't get me wrong, I accept the responsibility of being my own Field Droid, and I certainly appreciate the quantum measures of understanding I get when I finally track down and solve the latest failure, but Slippery Slivers of Silicon, Batman!!! can't we just turn the thing on and *play* with it, sans frequent crises????? Question: Do those of you with large functioning DEC systems go thru this crap as much as I seem to? Maybe I'm just Overly Whiny.... Sigh. But I *do* love these big old whirring racks o' Stuff! Cheers John From donm at cts.com Thu Oct 14 00:26:02 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: EMULEX MD-23 In-Reply-To: <19991013.175658.194.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > > Guys: > > This is one of a very small number of SCSI bridge > controllers that can handle 24Mhz ESDI drives. > Does anyone have the docs for this? I need to know > at least what the DIP switches do; I've figured > out the addressing part, but I need to know if the > sectoring can be adjusted, if it needs hard or > soft sectoring, if the SCSI parity can be set, etc. > > Any info would be seriously appreciated. > > > Jeff > ___________________________________________________________________ > Get the Internet just the way you want it. > Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! > Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > Jeff, I append this on the chance that the MD-21 is similar enough to the MD-23. The line draw didn't take, but I think you can deduce which description goes with which switch. - don MD21 SCSI/ESDI BRIDGE CONTROLLER ASSY # MU2110402 SWITCH SETTINGS 12345678 SW1: ON = 1, OFF = 0 SCSI Bus Parity Check Option 1 Enable 0 Disable Soft Errors Report 1 Soft errors are not reported 0 Soft errors are reported Drive Spinup Option 1 Drives are not spun up automatically 0 Drives are spun up automatically Physical Sector Size 1 256 bytes (soft-sectored drives only) 0 512 bytes (soft-sectored drives only) Not used - set to OFF SCSI Bus Address Selection SCSI ID 0 through 7: MSB = SW1-3 and LSB = SW1-1 SUPPORTED DRIVES Vendor/Model Sec/Track ISG PLO Bytes/ Minimum Size & Type Size Size Track Bytes/Sec CAST 10203 35/512 Soft 18 18 20880 596 CDC WREN III 94166-182 36/512 Hard 16 11 20880 580 CDC WREN V 94186-38 36/512 Hard 16 11 20880 580 FUJITSU M2246E 35/512 Hard 20 12 20864 596 FUJITSU M2249E 35/512 Hard 20 12 20864 596 HEWLET-PACKARD 98532EA 64/256 Embed 44 13 22400 350 HITACHI DK512 35/512 Hard 29 11 20944 538 HITACHI DK514 51/512 Hard 33 11 30240 592 MAXTOR EXT-4175 34/512 Soft 12 26 20808 612 MAXTOR EXT-4380 34/512 Soft 12 26 20808 612 MAXTOR EXT-4380E 34/512 Soft 14 24 20940 615 MAXTOR EXT-8380E 52/512 Hard 20 14 31410 592 MAXTOR EXT-8760E 52/512 Hard 20 14 31410 592 MICROPOLIS 1350 36/512 Hard 16 11 20832 578 MICROPOLIS 1558 36/512 Hard 16 11 20832 578 NEC D5652 35/512 Hard 24 11 20992 585 PRIAM 638 36/512 Hard 12 10 20832 578 SIEMENS 1300 35/512 Embed 32 16 21280 608 TOSHIBA MK-156FA-I 36/512 Hard 20 11 20832 595 MINISCRIBE 9380E 36/512 Hard 16 14 20382 598 Terminator resistor location: U22 and U35 From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Thu Oct 14 00:32:16 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: Desperate...Help...HP 9-track drive... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, John Lawson wrote: > > > Disconnect the interface cables and see if she'll load up > standalone. Also, Mark Green has a Very Good bit of advice as well. > (hint: is there a BOT reflector on the tape? I had to take apart my > Cipher 880 and dredge the tape out by hand because the BOT marker > had fallen off and the drive became disoriented...) Yeah, there's a BOT marker on it. The drive *was* loading and finding BOT with a blank tape before, all connected and everything. Now it won't even load that tape, or any of the newly created OS tapes I just received. I tried removing the interface cable and no-go. I'm not sure if you remember, but when we dragged the beastie up to my house and tried to load a tape, it took a couple of tries before it worked...ideas? Cheers, Aaron From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu Oct 14 00:59:35 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: Desperate...Help...HP 9-track drive... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991013225935.00945d90@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 22:32 13-10-1999 -0700, you wrote: >I tried removing the interface cable and no-go. I'm not sure if you >remember, but when we dragged the beastie up to my house and tried to load >a tape, it took a couple of tries before it worked...ideas? Possibility: The emitter portion of the BOT/EOT sensor may have failed. I don't recall what 'F5' on the display means, but I'm pretty sure it's an error code. I seem to recall that the sensor on that drive used an infrared LED. There are two ways you can check if it's actually emitting (besides checking the voltage across it, of course). One is to look at it through almost any video camera/camcorder or digital camera. Such units are sensitive to IR emissions, and will show such as a bright white light in a monochrome viewfinder (I have no clue what it would look like with a color viewfinder). Second option is to pick up one of those little cards at Radio Shack that glows when exposed to IR emissions. It's billed as being a tester for TV remotes and such, but hey, IR is IR no matter how you look at it. Just my $.02 worth. Hi, John. I'm doing digital basics this quarter, and I think I've survived Boolean and Karnaugh Maps (whew!). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Thu Oct 14 00:59:58 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: collectors vs. enthusiasts In-Reply-To: <19991013231449Z433703-651+195@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991013225958.03031bc4@ferrari.sfu.ca> At 05:14 PM 99/10/13 -0600, you wrote: >I think we are seeing some of the same thing in computers, >and eBay (and other auction sites) make it easy for them. >Hopefully this is just a passing fad. If enough of these >"investors" get burned they may not return. For what it's worth, I'm also an enthusiast/collector of old radios from the 1920s and 30s, and eBay has caused the same thing to happen with prices in that realm. Old radios and speakers are changing hands at values far above what they're actually "worth", based on the number still in existence, the technologies used, etc. This cost craziness has even spilled over into the local secondhand/antique market, where radios that used to be fairly priced at say $100 are now price tagged at say $400-$500. I think that speculation on eBay has caused prices to rise artifically, to the detriment of those who seek to acquire for love of the technology and the fun of getting old radios (or old computers) working again. These things are significant parts of history that will be lost unless some folks care enough to preserve them. Kevin --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Thu Oct 14 01:05:16 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: Where and Where to get an IBM 1130 In-Reply-To: <003601bf159f$50e60b20$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991013230516.0075990c@ferrari.sfu.ca> Hi Randy/List: I went to high school in Ontario, and sure enough, the school board had an 1130. I too started my computing on this machine, and would love to find one of these. There's one in Paul Pierce's collection in Portland Oregon. No, he won't part with it, I've already asked!! Kevin --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Thu Oct 14 01:23:22 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: Desperate...Help...HP 9-track drive... References: Message-ID: <014d01bf160c$9e9d70c0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: John Lawson To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Thursday, 14 October 1999 2:35 Subject: Re: Desperate...Help...HP 9-track drive... > but it's > seldom I turn on a system that it doesn't woof it's cookies and go > casters up on me. What are you playing on? IBM 370's? > Question: > > Do those of you with large functioning DEC systems go thru this > crap as much as I seem to? Can't speak about the PDP stuff, but very few hardware related problems with my own Vaxen. My "pet" 6430 was built up out of a straight cabinet with the addition of part of the contents of a seriously bent and twisted 6200. The Microvax II has had nothing done to it but a strip and cleanout of the cabinet. It's been whirring away happily on and off for a year or so. The Vax 6440 I babysit at work hasn't had a spanner on it since I modded the power supply to single phase in 1995, (apart from slinging in additional s/hand cpu's, ram & a SCSI controller). I've had two RA70 drives die on me, and a strange SCSI interface box to some custom Everex HSC mounted 4mm DAT drives died. (So I moved one dat drive to a SCSI based Vaxstation and clustered it...) That's about it. I'm still using the system disk I built in 1995 (RA72) at work and recently added some RA92's & moved up from a HSC50 to a HSC70 etc. I didn't have enough of any one type to do shadowing til yesterday, so that will be the next hoop I learn to jump through. Then I can do it to my "pet" Vax 6430 system (RA70's/90's x many)..... It's good having the same stuff at work and at home to play on....... > Sigh. But I *do* love these big old whirring racks o' Stuff! Yeah, me too... Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ #: 1970476 From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 14 01:16:01 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: collectors vs. enthusiasts In-Reply-To: <380547DE.6DDFD7A1@rain.org> (message from Marvin on Wed, 13 Oct 1999 20:02:54 -0700) References: <380547DE.6DDFD7A1@rain.org> Message-ID: <19991014061601.29180.qmail@brouhaha.com> > > My main objection to e-bay (and to most other forms of selling, > > actually), is that I don't know who the item is going to be sold to. > > The same could be said about newcomers to this list, and just about anyone I > don't know. This is something only time will correct. The same goes on ebay. > After a while, you see a lot of the same people bidding on stuff. The other > not so minor detail is that people that pay for this stuff will probably not > send it to that junkyard in the sky. Yes, but you can at least talk to newcomers in most venues before you agree to sell to them. With eBay, you're obligated to sell to the highest bidder no matter who they are. You may not have so much as an email address for them until seconds before the auction closes. From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Thu Oct 14 02:05:58 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: Desperate...Help...HP 9-track drive... In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991013225935.00945d90@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Oct 1999, Bruce Lane wrote: > Possibility: The emitter portion of the BOT/EOT sensor may have failed. I > don't recall what 'F5' on the display means, but I'm pretty sure it's an > error code. > > I seem to recall that the sensor on that drive used an infrared LED. There > are two ways you can check if it's actually emitting (besides checking the > voltage across it, of course). > > One is to look at it through almost any video camera/camcorder or digital > camera. Such units are sensitive to IR emissions, and will show such as a > bright white light in a monochrome viewfinder (I have no clue what it would > look like with a color viewfinder). Good trick! I happened to have a camcorder sitting idly by... Both the BOT and EOT emitters are working. And I know the EOT receiver is working because if I engage the loading arms and hold a mirror up to it, the arms retract and I get the TAPE message on the display. One thing, the drive never really seems to *look* for the BOT marker. I mean, pressing load causes the drive to immediately rewind a good 8"-1' of tape and then stops there. Nothing else. One thing I was wondering about is the small prism located on the media side just above the BOT/EOT sensors...what's it's function? There doesn't appear to be anything to it besides a small prism fixed into a metal block. Thanks for the help so far, Aaron From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Thu Oct 14 02:12:34 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: One more freebie... Message-ID: I forgot to mention that I also have a Dell docking bar for older Dell notebooks that is a combination token ring adapter/scsi adapter. Model number is TR-APR. If anyone is running a token ring network and needs a docking bar...this is your lucky day. I've tested the SCSI adapter and it works fine with an external CD drive. I don't have token ring set up anywhere to test it, sorry. If possible, I'd like whomever takes it to actually have a Dell laptop, scsi peripherals, and ideally use it with a token ring network...not just take it because it's such a bargain... Cheers, Aaron From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Thu Oct 14 02:35:31 1999 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: Floppy disks again Message-ID: <199910140735.DAA02615@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> I wrote: > How is it possible that DD media could be of such > poor quality that it can't (reliably?) do 96 TPI, > while still being just fine at 48 TPI? To which Allison replied: ] ???? Nonsense question, no context. I have no difficulty ] nor is there any reason to expect difficulty with 96tpi DD ] ops. I have expereinced using formerly formatted media of ] 96 or 48TPI that REQUIRED bulk erasure to be usable. I believe ] that intertrack noise due to differnt track widths are why. ] I regurally use PC360k, Vt180, RX50 and Visual1050 media and they ] are 48 TS, 48 SS, 96ss, 96ss/TS all running at DD data rates. ...much more, deleted... Oh yeah, you can't read my mind. Guess I better include some context. I'm thinking of the 5.25" DS/DD floppy disks commonly used in PC's and formatted to hold 360K at 48TPI. I was recently discussing with someone whether or not they could be used as RX50's, which as you know have 96 tracks per inch, with each track having the same number of bits as in the PC 360K DS/DD format. Both are supposed to be 300 Oerstedts. But I think I remember hearing complaints that the not-so-high-quality DS/DD 360K floppy disks would not work okay with the higher number of tracks per inch. And I am sure I read something about the importance of these diskettes being "well honed" to be used as RX50's, with the assertion that not all 360K DS/DD disks are. (But "well honed" was left undefined, and I'd love to know what exactly was meant, as well as what physical property of those not-so-high-quality diskettes was causing them to fail.) Now I'm not talking about writing more on any one track. It might still be just exactly the same as the PC DS/DD format. And coercivity doesn't come into the picture, because we are talking about floppy drives that are made to work with 300 Oerstedt media, which those DS/DD disks are. I'm also not thinking of taking a diskette written by one drive and trying to read it in another. That can cause problems because 48TPI tracks might be twice as wide as those written in a 96TPI drive. Simple enough; no confusion. The point I'm after is about the limitation on how many tracks that disk can hold - does that limitation come from something about the diskette itself, or is it a property of the disk drive in which it is used? My thinking is that the media can handle >3000 magnetic transitions (bits) per inch, because it does that along each track. So that can't be the limiting factor that prevents you from fitting 96 tracks into one inch. I'm not concerned with the drive in which it is written; I only care about what the media could hold if I had a precise enough disk drive. Assuming that the magnetic granules in the oxide are not systematically shaped in any odd way, (not generally longer than they are wide, or wider than long), then the media itself should in principle be able to handle 3000 tracks per inch - just as many transitions moving outward from center as moving along a track. If the diskette itself was so crappy that it couldn't handle 96 magnetic transitions radially, then it should have no hope of being able to handle 3000/inch when writing a track, so it would also have no hope of being usable in the PC 360K 48TPI format. Conversely, if it could handle the 3000 transitions per inch of the PC 360K DS/DD format, then the media itself is already *much* better than necessary to handle 96TPI. So the limitation is in the drive, and not the diskette; and any old never-written (or properly bulk-erased) "PC 360K" diskette should be perfectly happy as an RX50. It just occurred to me that the recorded track must be more or less like a UPC bar code - the width of the track is very much greater than the length of a bit in the track; maybe more than 200 times greater. So say the track was a 1 meter wide sidewalk, the bits would each be 1m wide, but only 5mm long. So even a tiny twist in the read head would gum it up real good - it should be much more sensitive to this than to alignment. Move 1cm to the left, and you are still 99% on the sidewalk - no problem. But twist just one degree, and when your left side is at one bit, your right side is three bits ahead or behind - big trouble. Well, maybe the forces acting on the head are less likely to twist it than to shift it. Bill. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Oct 14 02:07:43 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: Amateur ethics 101 (wasRe: pdp8/f) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19991013084138.00c2d9d0@vpwisfirewall> from "John Foust" at Oct 13, 99 08:41:38 am Message-ID: >> Yes, it's insane over there. I received good advice from this list about >> the value of those two SGI hardware manuals I almost gave away for free... >> the auction for one is at $121 this morning. > >Are you saying that you offered something for free here (or for the cost >of shipping, or whatever), somebody told you it was worth real money on >e-bay, so you decided to sell it there? Nominally we are a "friendly" group of similar, yet diverse collectors and admirers of old computers. We are not businesses. There is a difference in what ethics are appropriate. The ethics of taking advantage of mistakes people make is very questionable to me. I give the money back if a person makes a mistake giving me change. I also take the free pie when the grocery scanner rings up the wrong price. Some transactions deserve conscious consideration of the ethics before acting, but the situation above I think is pretty clear. I would not accept an item with that much value without telling the person and giving them a chance to reconsider. If I really wanted the item I would either make a "fair" offer for it (cash or better a trade, like value for like value), or bid on it with the rest of unwashed and extract some quid pro quo later on. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Oct 14 02:37:27 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: Collecting IBM Manuals In-Reply-To: References: <00a901bf15dc$4daf8480$b0348ad1@home> from "Phil Clayton" at Oct 13, 99 08:37:29 pm Message-ID: >> >> I was wondering if anyone else collects IBM Manuals. > >Well, I collect the (older) IBM Techrefs, but mainly as manuals to _use_ I keep my eye out for the little "folder" the system floppy discs come in for the PS/2 series, and generally accumulate anything software that looks interesting, manuals I only get for actual use. I am an active collector of SciFi books, and the logistics of that prevent me from idle accumulation of other printed materials. From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Thu Oct 14 02:51:47 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: Floppy disks again In-Reply-To: <9910140507.ZM10938@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Oct 14, 99 04:07:35 am Message-ID: <199910140751.AAA25365@saul5.u.washington.edu> Pete Turnbull wrote: > I remember the use, but it's still a misnomer, and I'm not altogether > convinced. Most non-N* people didn't call those disks QD, as far as I > remember. I think I saw the same usage in some Kaypro documentation. Unfortunately I don't have any of my Kaypro stuff any more. It's a pretty insidious usage. -- Derek From Innfogra at aol.com Thu Oct 14 02:58:05 1999 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: Where and Where to get an IBM 1130 Message-ID: <0.75333ffb.2536e70d@aol.com> In a message dated 10/13/99 11:05:47 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mcquiggi@sfu.ca writes: > There's one in Paul Pierce's collection in Portland Oregon. > No, he won't part with it, I've already asked!! > I learned Fortran on that very machine in Paul Pierce's collection. When Clatsop Community College surplused it out in 1989 (after having it nearly 20 years) he outbid me in the sealed bid sale. It is going to be hard to find a 1130. You might try remote, poor community colleges. It was really designed as an engineering machine and pushed into business applications. Good luck. Paxton From zuse at cs.tu-berlin.de Thu Oct 14 04:06:05 1999 From: zuse at cs.tu-berlin.de (Horst Zuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: Konrad Zuse Message-ID: <38059CFD.63954ECB@cs.tu-berlin.de> Hi, look at: http://www.cs.tu-berlin.de/~zuse Best regards Horst Zuse From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Oct 14 08:06:16 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: Floppy disks again In-Reply-To: <199910140735.DAA02615@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> Message-ID: > I'm thinking of the 5.25" DS/DD floppy disks commonly used > in PC's and formatted to hold 360K at 48TPI. I was recently > discussing with someone whether or not they could be used as > RX50's, which as you know have 96 tracks per inch, with each > track having the same number of bits as in the PC 360K DS/DD > format. Both are supposed to be 300 Oerstedts. But I think Yes they are. > I remember hearing complaints that the not-so-high-quality > DS/DD 360K floppy disks would not work okay with the higher > number of tracks per inch. And I am sure I read something > about the importance of these diskettes being "well honed" > to be used as RX50's, with the assertion that not all 360K > DS/DD disks are. (But "well honed" was left undefined, and > I'd love to know what exactly was meant, as well as what > physical property of those not-so-high-quality diskettes > was causing them to fail.) Bogus. Actually the term is calendered and its a surface treatment for smoothness and consistancy. But whatever. I regurally use non-rx50 media for RX50 use. the real problem people had was lack of erasure (bulk erase if you reformat) and the systems sometimes used to format the disks wer causing problems (bad formatting as DEC was a bit oddball to fit the 10 sectors). > The point I'm after is about the limitation on how many > tracks that disk can hold - does that limitation come from > something about the diskette itself, or is it a property > of the disk drive in which it is used? My thinking is that > the media can handle >3000 magnetic transitions (bits) per > inch, because it does that along each track. So that can't > be the limiting factor that prevents you from fitting 96 > tracks into one inch. I'm not concerned with the drive in > which it is written; I only care about what the media could > hold if I had a precise enough disk drive. It's largely a property of the drive as the media is the same (excluding imperfections) across the entire surface. Its an issue of head width, positioner and stablity of the frame/head assembly. FYI: 3.5" drives do use 600o media and 135 tracks/in. The reason for that is as you make the head smaller it's harder to get a good signal (with simple amplifers) so you use a "stronger" magnetic material to get a bigger signal. > Assuming that the magnetic granules in the oxide are not > systematically shaped in any odd way, (not generally longer > than they are wide, or wider than long), then the media > itself should in principle be able to handle 3000 tracks > per inch - just as many transitions moving outward from Could but they would be ajacent to each other and there magnetic effects. Even had drives have space (even if small) between tracks that are far wider than the bit density. But Even at 500 tpi to allow that you have the problem of need a positioner that can hit .002" +-.0005"(or better). Steppers and bands or lead screws really arent up to the task and also are very slow. transversing 500 tracks at 3ms step rate will take 1.5 seconds! Thats far too slow and we would have to look at the servo (winchester) technologies used for hard disks. that also implies the media would have to have servo info recorded and we end up with the ZIP disk! > and any old never-written (or properly bulk-erased) > "PC 360K" diskette should be perfectly happy as an RX50. Yep! > more or less like a UPC bar code - the width of the track > is very much greater than the length of a bit in the track; > maybe more than 200 times greater. So say the track was a > 1 meter wide sidewalk, the bits would each be 1m wide, but > only 5mm long. So even a tiny twist in the read head would > gum it up real good - it should be much more sensitive to > this than to alignment. Move 1cm to the left, and you are > still 99% on the sidewalk - no problem. But twist just one > degree, and when your left side is at one bit, your right > side is three bits ahead or behind - big trouble. Well, > maybe the forces acting on the head are less likely to > twist it than to shift it. Yep. But the head to read that 1m side walk is only .5m wide and has erase elements to clear to the 1.05m width. The track width is not 1/n the nuber of tracks as there is "dead" space inbetween and then the actual track is not used to the full width as well. so for you example the bar code actually has a requirement of 1m width (so you can find it) actually read or written to for .5m and the edges are erased wider than the read/write area and the bar code must also have a "clearence band" around it of say .5m to make the picture more complete. So the 48tpi disk may have a track that is .0208333" wide and of that I'd bet without checking less than 50% is even written (erase or data). Asmuth is important too, it impacts read signal strength. In this case the wider bars are bigger magnets for the reason of a bigger signal. Most floppy heads are fairly rigid in their mounting so thats not much of an issue(save for the manufacturer building it). (also read head gap important too). Allison From bobstek at ix.netcom.com Thu Oct 14 08:16:15 1999 From: bobstek at ix.netcom.com (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: Heads up! IMSAI available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just found this in comp.os.cpm -- Imsai 8080. Has the LED and switch front panel, although it only displays register statuses--the switches don't work with the Godbout Z80 card. Has been sitting on the shelf since the last time it was used (~8 years ago); worked fine then. The drive cables were a little ginched and will probably have to be rebuilt; apart from that and accumulated dust/crud. Includes: 64K RAM (56K system, top 8K is the boot ROM) Two parallel and serial ports, max speed 9600 baud Floppy controller board which supports DSDD on two drives Two 8" floppy drives on separate chassis w/power supply (have been sitting on the floor for some time and were flooded about an inch deep but were out of most of the water and are still probably workable) 26MB Shugart-->Discus hard drive, formats into three 7832K partitions. System boots from floppy, you then run a prog on the boot floppy to boot the hard drive. Has a lot of utility software installed and functional. To save hard drive space and directory entries, most system commands and small utilities are in a .lib file and must be run with the LRUN command. Original first-model Hayes 300 baud modem: Card in computer connects to separate box holding the phone jack Telewidget 925 terminal Boot discs (VERY dusty, will probably have to be nursed to get them to work), cables, etc. What am I bid? I'm not all that hot on selling this Noble Antique but ... Gary G. Taylor 29 Palms, CA Reply to gary > donavan * org http://www.donavan.org Freedom is the best revenge. From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu Oct 14 08:47:52 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: Desperate...Help...HP 9-track drive... In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19991013225935.00945d90@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991014064752.00939910@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 00:05 14-10-1999 -0700, you wrote: >One thing, the drive never really seems to *look* for the BOT marker. I >mean, pressing load causes the drive to immediately rewind a good 8"-1' of >tape and then stops there. Nothing else. Odd... Without being there, my next guess would be to unseat/reseat all the connectors, including circuit boards in edge connectors, and to press down on all chips that are not in high-rel (machined pin or 'Augat' style) sockets. I had odd problems with a Kennedy drive once that mysteriously vanished after I did that. >One thing I was wondering about is the small prism located on the media >side just above the BOT/EOT sensors...what's it's function? There doesn't >appear to be anything to it besides a small prism fixed into a metal >block. That may not be a prism. As I recall, HP used some sort of mineral blade as a tape cleaner. I'm thinking that's what you may be looking at. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Oct 14 08:49:26 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: Where and Where to get an IBM 1130 In-Reply-To: <0.75333ffb.2536e70d@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991014093059.00a74180@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 03:58 AM 10/14/99 -0400, Innfogra@aol.com said something like: >In a message dated 10/13/99 11:05:47 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >mcquiggi@sfu.ca writes: > >> There's one in Paul Pierce's collection in Portland Oregon. >> No, he won't part with it, I've already asked!! >> >I learned Fortran on that very machine in Paul Pierce's collection. When >Clatsop Community College surplused it out in 1989 (after having it nearly 20 >years) he outbid me in the sealed bid sale. > >It is going to be hard to find a 1130. You might try remote, poor community >colleges. It was really designed as an engineering machine and pushed into >business applications. I feel you're right in your assessment of 1130 availability Paxton. These machines were long obsolete 15 or more years ago and back then nobody felt like keeping a big old useless thing around after moving up to more modern machine(s). Except of course those who needed to keep it on hand to support customers for which they'd written 1130 software apps or those who had an ancient but important database to maintain. The 1130 was my very first contact with a computer back in 'Spring of '72. Like Sgt. McQuiggan and one or two others who mentioned it here, I also learned Fortran on that model which was the very first computer installed at our Jamestown Community College. Jeez, if I only knew back then how computers would be placed in our everyday lives, I would have put a much stronger focus on learning everything possible about it and any associated software. But I was a 19-year-old kid and had no sense of what the future would hold so took the course because it was required for my degree. For that matter, relative to computers in general, I think very _few_ folks in '72 had in mind how they would become so pervasive in our lives so soon as they have. I still have my 1130 Fortran IV 1966 textbook :) I'd really like to get an 1130 myself and indeed just missed one from out East of me at Cornell U. last year. One of our fellow list members got it :) Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Oct 14 09:15:41 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: Fwd: Acoustic modems? In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19991013152152.52f7b21e@mail.9netave.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991014091541.00fd0ab0@vpwisfirewall> At 03:30 PM 10/13/99 -0700, Roger Sinasohn wrote: >Please respond to Tim directly at if you can help... > >>Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 23:18:45 -0800 >>From: Tim Long >>Subject: Acoustic modems? >> >>Hi! I am interested in purchasing an acoustic modem, but I have not been >>able to find one anywhere. First, are there any acoustic modems that are >>compatible with modern IBM-clone PCs? Certainly the use of a coupler limits the bandwidth of the signal that can be reliably exchanged. It worked in the days of two-tone 300 baud, but I don't think it would stand a chance at 4800, 9600 or above. - John From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Oct 14 09:20:16 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: Desperate...Help...HP 9-track drive... Message-ID: <991014102016.23600216@trailing-edge.com> >One thing, the drive never really seems to *look* for the BOT marker. I >mean, pressing load causes the drive to immediately rewind a good 8"-1' of >tape and then stops there. Nothing else. It's possible that the optical sensors in the tape path are out of adjustment or simply just dusty. Most tape drives have at least two sensors, one for the BOT and one for the EOT marker, and some have a third sensor for "tape present in tape path". If these are giving nonsensical combinations, (for example, both BOT and EOT at the same time) the machine is likely to do weird things or fail its self-test. In some cases, bright light (i.e. direct sunlight) shining into the tape drive will temporarily screw up these sensors, leading to the classic stories of "tape drive works in the morning but not in the afternoon"! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Oct 14 09:28:05 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: pdp8/f (now Amiga poster) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19991013084138.00c2d9d0@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991014092805.00fbfb70@vpwisfirewall> At 06:57 PM 10/13/99 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > >Are you saying that you offered something for free here (or for the cost >of shipping, or whatever), somebody told you it was worth real money on >e-bay, so you decided to sell it there? Yes, exactly. Someone on this list warned me these manuals were highly sought. The auction on eBay just ended at $169. I listed the second manual this morning, and I hope it goes for as much. Yes, I rescinded my offer once I realized my mistake. I entertained the notion I was the subject of a joke, frankly. I couldn't believe this manual could be worth ~$200. Wouldn't it be nasty to tell someone that their spare 5 1/4 PC floppy might be worth $300, if you hated eBay? So I sent a note to the several people who'd responded to my free offer, and no one complained outright. Perhaps they ran away in disgust, but I didn't think it was a big deal. You're right, I'd made a mistake. But it was one guy who wasn't even asking for the manual who stepped forward to tell me it was worth considerably more than zero. I was being generous, giving away something I thought had no value. If there was actual money involved - that is, if I'd said I'll sell this manual for $10 and someone stepped forward - well, I'd probably feel the same way you described, a deal's a deal. I have no doubt there that a sense of community ethics arise in mailing lists like this. I don't think I crossed the line. In fact, I certainly thought my penance (to who? The mailing list god?) of offering some rare Amiga-head posters to the list would make up for getting close to the line. I understand the collector / enthusiast / speculator angle. I don't buy the argument that anyone spending too much money on eBay must have a black heart, though. Right now, ~$300 gives me more of a thrill. I have no way of judging the sincerity of those who asked for the free manuals. Do you? How can I distinguish the True SGI Enthusiast from the one without an SGI who will put it on the shelf? As a side note, I have an e-mail folder half-full of similar deals-gone-south. I can't tell you how many times people have offered something here, or on news groups, then not responded, or responded and then never followed through, etc. I don't get too worked up about it. - John From g at kurico.com Thu Oct 14 11:12:32 1999 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: collectors vs. enthusiasts In-Reply-To: References: from "George Currie" at Oct 13, 99 08:11:35 pm Message-ID: > > > > > > It's crazy. I can't believe what they are paying on EBay for > > > > less than *incomplete* systems. I could see $1400 with drives, > > > > running, tested, manuals, etc... but a shell?????? > > > > > > > > > That's because eBay is where "collectors" hang out. Not people > > > like us, for whom collector is an insufficient/inaccurate term. > > > > Whereas I agree that there is a differentiation between the > > "collector" and the "enthusiast", I must take umbrage to the ,again, > > generalization of the person who pays "too much" on ebay > > automatically being "collector assholes, just because he had deep > > pockets". > > > My main objection to e-bay (and to most other forms of selling, > actually), is that I don't know who the item is going to be sold to. > > Remember that I am an enthusiast and not a collector, so I _very > rarely_ sell machines, or even complete peripherals. In general, if > I've obtained something it's because _I_ want to learn about it, > repair it, etc. [SNIP] The fact that you don't know who it's going to is part of my point. It's the automatic assumption that if someone paid more than what you (not you specificially, just the generic "you") view as "too much", then they must be doing it for nefarious reasons. [SNIP] > > and wanted to tinker with, and had the financial means to acquire > > it, would you let it go to the scrap because you thought the asking > > price was too high? Would you let it go to a "collector asshole" > > Don't be silly. If I have the money for something, and I consider the > price to be reasonable, and I want it, then I buy it. My point was that the asking price was more than what you thought was reasonable (i.e. would you sacrafice your moral ideal as to what the item is worth to "save" it?) > > than you, is just immature. I get just as bummed as anyone else > > when something that I've been wanting goes for more than what I'm > > willing to pay ($100 for an HP Integral, nope, don't think so, but > > You know, if I saw an Integral for that sort of money in the UK, I'd > try to find a way to afford it... What, you'd be willing to spend over $100 for an Integral, you must obviously be some collector scum. Your ruining my enthusiasts pursuits by artificially driving up prices of Integrals ;) George From g at kurico.com Thu Oct 14 11:31:03 1999 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: collectors vs. enthusiasts In-Reply-To: <19991014013545.27693.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: (g@kurico.com) Message-ID: > I wrote: > > > > That's because eBay is where "collectors" hang out. Not people like > > us, for whom collector is an insufficient/inaccurate term. > > "George Currie" > > Whereas I agree that there is a differentiation between the > > "collector" and the "enthusiast", I must take umbrage to the ,again, > > generalization of the person who pays "too much" on ebay > > automatically being "collector assholes, just because he had deep > > pockets". > > I don't believe I said anything of the sort. I said that "collectors" > hang out on eBay, but I never said that enthusiasts don't. I didn't think that I implied that you implied that enthusiasts don't hang out there. At least re-reading my paragraph doesn't seem to say that, to me anyway (then again it wouldn't since I wrote it ;) > > Are you implying that one must be of modest means to be an > > "enthusiast". > > No, I didn't. I've seen enthusiasts pay enormous amounts of money for > certain items. I've done it myself. What I object to is having to do > it because some non-enthusiast asshole has more dollars than sense. > More about this later. Yes, I hate that too. It was just the statement that those that "collect" are automatically assholes. [SNIP] > > Would you let it go to a "collector asshole" > > because you thought the asking price was too high? > > Yes, if the "asking price" was "too high". "Too high" is a > subjective measure. I never buy ANYTHING that I think is priced > "too high". Of course, tommorow's value of "too high" may be > different from today's. The original question asked that if you actually had the means to purchase and you thought the asking price was too high. If you'd let it go, then you really didn't care that much about the item to begin with. Especially if you consider a collector to be detrimental to preserving the hardware (to clarify, you never made a statement about collectors doing this, but others have). [SNIP] > > I fully understand the frustration, but venting it by making > > generalizations of those who happen to be better financially > > equipped than you, or are just willing to pay more for something > > than you, is just immature. > > If complaining about life's injustices is immature, then I'm > immature. But then, so's most everyone else I know. > > In fact, aren't you complaining about me based on some generalization > you've made regarding me? Sounds immature to me. :-) What! are you saying that I'm being intolerant of your intolerance ;) Actually it's not a generalization, I'm addressing specific comments and stated attitudes. George From donm at cts.com Thu Oct 14 15:09:03 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: Floppy disks again In-Reply-To: <199910140751.AAA25365@saul5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Oct 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > I remember the use, but it's still a misnomer, and I'm not altogether > > convinced. Most non-N* people didn't call those disks QD, as far as I > > remember. > > I think I saw the same usage in some Kaypro documentation. Unfortunately I > don't have any of my Kaypro stuff any more. Derek, I cannot imagine that it would be so. To my best recollection, Kaypro never used a 96tpi drive in any of their equipment - unless it were an AT clone. - don > It's a pretty insidious usage. > > -- Derek > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Oct 14 15:18:04 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: Fwd: Acoustic modems? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991014091541.00fd0ab0@vpwisfirewall> References: <3.0.16.19991013152152.52f7b21e@mail.9netave.com> Message-ID: >At 03:30 PM 10/13/99 -0700, Roger Sinasohn wrote: >>Please respond to Tim directly at if you can help... >> >>>Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 23:18:45 -0800 >>>From: Tim Long >>>Subject: Acoustic modems? >>> >>>Hi! I am interested in purchasing an acoustic modem, but I have not been >>>able to find one anywhere. First, are there any acoustic modems that are >>>compatible with modern IBM-clone PCs? > >Certainly the use of a coupler limits the bandwidth of the signal >that can be reliably exchanged. It worked in the days of two-tone >300 baud, but I don't think it would stand a chance at 4800, 9600 >or above. > >- John Acoustic couplers, not the earlier ones, but later units made for $$$ and people who did a lot of "remote" travel worked up to about 4800. Essentially we are really just talking about a certain level of "fidelity" between your hardware and the telco hardware. The real question is WHAT does the person hope to accomplish. From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Thu Oct 14 15:47:56 1999 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: Fwd: Acoustic modems? In-Reply-To: from Mike Ford at "Oct 14, 1999 01:18:04 pm" Message-ID: <19991014204801Z433780-27650+195@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > >At 03:30 PM 10/13/99 -0700, Roger Sinasohn wrote: > >>Please respond to Tim directly at if you can help... > >> > >>>Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 23:18:45 -0800 > >>>From: Tim Long > >>>Subject: Acoustic modems? > >>> > >>>Hi! I am interested in purchasing an acoustic modem, but I have not been > >>>able to find one anywhere. First, are there any acoustic modems that are > >>>compatible with modern IBM-clone PCs? > > > >Certainly the use of a coupler limits the bandwidth of the signal > >that can be reliably exchanged. It worked in the days of two-tone > >300 baud, but I don't think it would stand a chance at 4800, 9600 > >or above. > > > >- John > > Acoustic couplers, not the earlier ones, but later units made for $$$ and > people who did a lot of "remote" travel worked up to about 4800. > Essentially we are really just talking about a certain level of "fidelity" > between your hardware and the telco hardware. > You can still buy acoustic couplers, I bought one several years ago. It definitely does better than 4800. If I recall correctly mine does 9600 baud and possibly higher. There are two markets for acoustic couplers. One if traveling sales people. A acoustic coupler can be used from a pay phone, so they can connect on the road. The other is for people who do a lot of traveling outside of North America. Its easier to connect an acoustic coupler to a phone than to try and find the appropriate phone jacks. In some hotels, particularly in Europe, the phones aren't jacked, so unless you take the phone apart (I have a friend that carries a complete tool kit for this purpose), an acoustic coupler is your only choice. If I remember correctly I paid around $150 for mine. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 14 12:40:24 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: collectors vs. enthusiasts In-Reply-To: <19991014013545.27693.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Oct 14, 99 01:35:45 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2377 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991014/a12283d4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 14 12:51:41 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: Desperate...Help...HP 9-track drive... In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at Oct 13, 99 10:05:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1474 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991014/59befd02/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 14 13:07:07 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: Amateur ethics 101 (wasRe: pdp8/f) In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Oct 14, 99 00:07:43 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3147 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991014/71c064c8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 14 13:09:37 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: Collecting IBM Manuals In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Oct 14, 99 00:37:27 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 619 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991014/f91d8d90/attachment.ksh From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Thu Oct 14 15:57:08 1999 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: Fwd: Acoustic modems? In-Reply-To: <19991014204801Z433780-27650+195@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> Message-ID: I saw but didn't pay much attention to an acoustic coupler located at Fry's Electronics in Willsonville Oregon about a week ago. Next time there I'll take another look. George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Thu, 14 Oct 1999, Mark Green wrote: > > >At 03:30 PM 10/13/99 -0700, Roger Sinasohn wrote: > > >>Please respond to Tim directly at if you can help... > > >> > > >>>Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 23:18:45 -0800 > > >>>From: Tim Long > > >>>Subject: Acoustic modems? > > >>> > > >>>Hi! I am interested in purchasing an acoustic modem, but I have not been > > >>>able to find one anywhere. First, are there any acoustic modems that are > > >>>compatible with modern IBM-clone PCs? > > > > > >Certainly the use of a coupler limits the bandwidth of the signal > > >that can be reliably exchanged. It worked in the days of two-tone > > >300 baud, but I don't think it would stand a chance at 4800, 9600 > > >or above. > > > > > >- John > > > > Acoustic couplers, not the earlier ones, but later units made for $$$ and > > people who did a lot of "remote" travel worked up to about 4800. > > Essentially we are really just talking about a certain level of "fidelity" > > between your hardware and the telco hardware. > > > > You can still buy acoustic couplers, I bought one several years > ago. It definitely does better than 4800. If I recall correctly > mine does 9600 baud and possibly higher. There are two markets > for acoustic couplers. One if traveling sales people. A > acoustic coupler can be used from a pay phone, so they can > connect on the road. The other is for people who do a lot > of traveling outside of North America. Its easier to connect > an acoustic coupler to a phone than to try and find the > appropriate phone jacks. In some hotels, particularly in > Europe, the phones aren't jacked, so unless you take the phone > apart (I have a friend that carries a complete tool kit for > this purpose), an acoustic coupler is your only choice. If > I remember correctly I paid around $150 for mine. > > -- > Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca > Professor (780) 492-4584 > Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) > Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) > University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada > From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Oct 14 16:04:33 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:53 2005 Subject: RT-11 Freeware CD now available! Message-ID: <991014170433.236001c6@trailing-edge.com> Hi Folks, You might remember me, I've been maintaining the PDP-11 freeware archives at ftp://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/ for the past decade, and I posted a few months ago saying that I was beta-testing some CD copies of the archives. Well, the beta-testing is done, I've run off the first batch of "production" RT-11 CD-R's, and they're now available for sale. I'm hooked up as a "zShop" through Amazon.com, and you can order the RT-11 CD through this link: http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/ts/exchange-glance/Y03Y5462567Y2843157/002-3459573-5673867 For a link that's a little easier to remember, and which is hooked to the above page, try this: http://www.trailing-edge.com/www/freeware.html I think the Amazon.com "zShop" concept is really pretty nifty, and if you order through there with your credit card shipment is almost immediate. If you prefer to order directly from me, that's also possible; email me at "shoppa@trailing-edge.com" with your name and shipping address, and I'll hold a copy until your payment ($15.00+$1.50 shipping for US addresses, or $4.50 for airmail delivery to international addresses) arrives. At this moment, the only way to pay with credit card is through Amazon.com. At the moment, there are 30 CD's ready to ship; if these quickly sell out, I can run off additional copies as soon as this weekend. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com 7328 Bradley Blvd WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ Bethesda MD USA 20817 Voice: 301-767-5917 Fax: 301-767-5927 From daniel at internet.look.ca Thu Oct 14 16:08:35 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: Desperate...Help...HP 9-track drive... Message-ID: <001c01bf1688$47956680$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, October 14, 1999 4:56 PM Subject: Re: Desperate...Help...HP 9-track drive... >> One of the things I like the least about my collection of Olde >> Iron, is the amount of time I seem to have to spend >> diagnosing/repairing vs. enjoying the system. I am a BSEE, and have >> spent a good deal of my career fixing broken things, and I've paid >> some dues as a programmer and systems analyst, too... but it's >> seldom I turn on a system that it doesn't woof it's cookies and go >> casters up on me. That's the best part! I get bored quickly with old systems that run. Most of the minis I get out of plants "operational" are far from operational. I never board swap so that keeps things interesting. They usually take a few days to a few weeks to fully restore. Most of them come with poor software... I spend my days designing hardware/firmware and some software for new projects so I don't find it too interesting writing Fortran programs on a teletype. The Honeywell 316 series *were* my favorite computers because they break down so often. At one time I had three of them taking turns crapping out. I think I might be able to enjoy writing some code on the PDP 8/s. For anyone interested I am setting up a small communications server with a Nova, the 8/s, and a PDP 11/05 so folks on the internet can telnet into them (Nova - Basic, 8/s - whatever looks the coolest, PDP 11/05 - RT11 with MBASIC, maybe a 11/34). Hopefully some folks will appricate logging into the systems and playing with them. john > >Err, isn't that part of the fun of running old computers. If you want a >machine that powers up first time, you probably don't want to be running >some strange 1970's box :-). > >Seriously, though, most of my machines are pretty relaible. Yes, I do get >failures. And I know that sometimes when I turn them on, it's not going >to work. That's why I have a pile of service manuals, schematics, tools, >test gear, etc. But 95%+ of the time, things work. > >One thing is, I do do a bit of PM. Not in the field service sense of >changing the filters once a month. But in the sense of checking PSU >voltages, fan operation, cleaning connectors, etc from time to time. I >generally completely strip any machine that I get and check for problems >(power connections hanging on 1 or 2 strands are common, and cause all >sorts of problems). Then every so often I stick a voltmeter on the PSU >outputs, just to check. > >I don't get that many failures. Oh, the odd chip fails, the odd dry joint >opens (more often in new stuff, actually). But not that often. > >-tony > From jpl15 at netcom.com Thu Oct 14 16:11:01 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: PDP-11 to give away (fwd) Message-ID: Achtung! Ein heads-up: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: 14 Oct 1999 12:46:52 GMT From: Christoph Gartmann To: Info-PDP11@transarc.com Subject: PDP-11 to give away Hello, we have an old PDP-11 here in Freiburg, Germany that we will dump unless someone is interested to pick it up. Its hard disk is dead that is why it has to go. Regards, Christoph Gartmann -----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Max-Planck-Institut fuer Phone : +49-761-5108-464 Fax: -452 | | Immunbiologie | | Postfach 1169 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de | | D-79011 Freiburg, FRG | +------------ http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/english/menue.html -----------+ ---------- To unsubscribe (or subscribe) from (to) this list, send a message to info-pdp11-request@village.org, with the first line of the message body being "unsubscribe" or "subscribe", respectively (without the quotes). From aknight at mindspring.com Thu Oct 14 16:27:22 1999 From: aknight at mindspring.com (Alex Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: Victor PC available Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19991014172722.007a3a20@mindspring.com> Hello, The fellow who wrote me the following e-mail saw that I was looking for Victor calculators on my web site and wrote me to say he has a Victor PC available. If you have any interest in this PC, please contact Scott directly at the e-mail address in his message. In another message he wrote that the computer does work, and that he would hate to just throw it in the trash. Hopefully one of you will find a home for this machine! Regards, Alex Knight Calculator History & Technology Museum Web Page http://aknight.home.mindspring.com/calc.htm forwarded message: From: "Humerickhouse, Scott A" >Subject: Victor Computer > >Hello, >I have a Victor 8086 PC that is in very good working condition (I have all >of the original manuals too). Victor only made computers for a short period >of time, so I am not sure how much this machine is worth, but it is of no >use to me anymore. If you would be interested in this PC, please email me >back. > >Thanks, >Scott From msg at computerpro.com Thu Oct 14 16:59:48 1999 From: msg at computerpro.com (Grigoni) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: Konrad Zuse In-Reply-To: <38059CFD.63954ECB@cs.tu-berlin.de> Message-ID: Wonderful site! In my opinion it is a great honor to have a relative of Konrad Zuse post to this list. Michael Grigoni Cybertheque Museum On Thu, 14 Oct 1999, Horst Zuse wrote: > Hi, > > look at: http://www.cs.tu-berlin.de/~zuse > > Best regards > > > Horst Zuse > > From awcl at awcoldstream.com Thu Oct 14 17:10:33 1999 From: awcl at awcoldstream.com (awcl) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: Zenith Z-90 Message-ID: <380654D9.83274997@awcoldstream.com> Hello, Thsi is my first post to the list. My apologies if this is off topic. I looking for Zenith Z90 computer. Thank you Anil From west at tseinc.com Thu Oct 14 19:35:26 1999 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: listproc? Testing this list Message-ID: <001701bf16a5$2dd34a60$0101a8c0@jay> Is there something wrong with the list? A) It's unusually quiet B) I've recently seen people talking about messages I'm fairly certain I never saw C) I suspect one or two of my messages never went out Just testing..... Jay West From LightNin369 at cs.com Thu Oct 14 21:19:31 1999 From: LightNin369 at cs.com (LightNin369@cs.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: IBM PC Jr. Message-ID: <0.5612057d.2537e933@cs.com> I have an IBM PC Jr. that I want to get rid of. Do you know anyone that is interested? My email is LightNin369@cs.com Thanks. Michelle From af-list at is1.wfi-inc.com Thu Oct 14 21:19:52 1999 From: af-list at is1.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Mailing Lists) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: Fwd: Acoustic modems? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Oct 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > >Certainly the use of a coupler limits the bandwidth of the signal > >that can be reliably exchanged. It worked in the days of two-tone > >300 baud, but I don't think it would stand a chance at 4800, 9600 > >or above. > > > >- John > > Acoustic couplers, not the earlier ones, but later units made for $$$ and > people who did a lot of "remote" travel worked up to about 4800. > Essentially we are really just talking about a certain level of "fidelity" > between your hardware and the telco hardware. I remember the days of being vewwy, vewwy *quiet* while downloading "huge" 80K files with an Atari 830. Then, 78K through, you'd lean back and your chair would give out a loud "creeaaakkk" and it was all over. We did all kinds of things to try to insulate from noise; eventually, I used bathtub caulk and dedicated a cheap phone to the cause...caulking every place I thought it might leak noise. Then I'd bury the thing in pillows... I've seen several devices in the past couple of years for travellers to be able to have data access in hotels/pay-phones, etc. I know they were at least 4800b, and I believe some even claimed 9600b. I remember because I was on a plane to Chicago with a friend who used to geek around Atari's with me and I wistfully sighed, "Remember back when we were on the Dragon BBS, trying to download with that acoustic modem?" Aaron From rkaplan at accsys-corp.com Thu Oct 14 22:16:33 1999 From: rkaplan at accsys-corp.com (Randy Kaplan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: DOs/Windows Based PdP8/e emulator Message-ID: <38069C91.B38498B4@accsys-corp.com> Hi - Can someone point me to a MSDOS or Windows-based emulator for the PDP-8 or 8e? Thanks, Randy Kaplan From peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk Thu Oct 14 22:18:39 1999 From: peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: pdp8/f (now Amiga poster) References: Message-ID: <01be01bf16be$705550e0$1ee893c3@proteus> Hi Tony, > Are you saying that you offered something for free here (or for the cost > of shipping, or whatever), somebody told you it was worth real money on > e-bay, so you decided to sell it there? > > If so, then I regard this as _very_ unethical behaviour, and not at all > what I'd expect from a classic computer enthusiast. > > My policy is simple. If I offer something for sale, and set a price, then > that's the price I would accept for it.... Sorry for quoting so much of the message. I have to say that I agree with everything you said, to my mind it's a simple case of good manners. Once you've made a deal with someone you simply don't back out just because you got a better offer etc - it's just NOT done! :-( TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From Jgzabol at aol.com Fri Oct 15 00:32:41 1999 From: Jgzabol at aol.com (Jgzabol@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: Collecting IBM Manuals Message-ID: <0.7606f317.25381679@aol.com> Hi all, does anyone collect IBM manuals from the mainframe line, like system /360, or even older ones, like 1140, 1401, 7090, and earlier ? I would be particularly interested in any hardware docs. Thanks and regards John G. Zabolitzky From af-list at wfi-inc.com Fri Oct 15 00:50:43 1999 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: Desperate...Help...HP 9-track drive... In-Reply-To: <991014102016.23600216@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: A little update on my progress... I think that I've determined that it's a tension problem. The BOT/EOT sensors are working fine, and I logically (or otherwise) deduced that it reads that there's a tape present when both sensors are *not* getting a reading at the same time (two sensors side-by-side, the adjacent piece on the media side is highly-polished - i.e. reflective - aluminum). An incidental post to the HP3000 mailing list about a guy fixing the tape tension on his system using DirtDevil vaccuum belts prompted me to run to Target and pick up a couple, as the rubber on my capstan was badly glazed. On they went, and I got the machine in really bright halogen light so I could watch it closely. Bingo! The tape slacks *badly* when you push load, right below the head assembly and right above/around the capstan. But why? (And how did I miss that before???) I have a small idea, but I don't know enough about the general mechanics of tape drives to really figure it out. Here's the deal: the capstan is a little over an inch in diameter and has a flat ring behind it (toward the backplate) that extends about an eigth of an inch beyond the radius. This disc is white with uniformly-spaced black dots, around a quarter-inch apart, going all around it. Like timing marks for a strobe? Positioned directly behind the path of the dots, recessed in the case, is a small red bulb. And it's dead. Could it be that it is somehow supposed to read the rotational speed of the capstan from these dots and the sensor/light emitter is dead? Do these things work this way? I know the servo for the capstan is working fine, testing it by fooling the sensors into thinking a tape is threaded and pressing load makes it spin strongly (no slipping when I trail a finger on it). Ugh, unfortunately I left my vom at work and can't check if there's current to the bulb during the load procedure. I'll check tomorrow night and let you know...in the meantime does anyone have any ideas/comments? Thanks for everyone's input so far, it's been invaluable. Cheers, Aaron From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Oct 15 02:57:33 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: IBM PC Jr. In-Reply-To: <0.5612057d.2537e933@cs.com> Message-ID: >I have an IBM PC Jr. that I want to get rid of. Do you know anyone that is >interested? Where might it be? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Oct 15 04:09:05 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: Dead horse beating society, list test In-Reply-To: <01be01bf16be$705550e0$1ee893c3@proteus> References: Message-ID: >I have to say that I agree with everything you said, to my mind it's a simple >case of good manners. Once you've made a deal with someone you simply don't >back out just because you got a better offer etc - it's just NOT done! :-( I disagree. Lots of times the transaction is just not that simple, or clean. Mistakes happen, I make them, the other person makes them. The ethical thing in a friendly transaction is that when it is discovered that a "mistake" was made, the transaction stops and goes back to square one. While I am pleased to know the ethical standards and practices of the rest of the list, the standards and practices I have to live with are my own. I am more concerned with how I "feel" about my actions, than how well I followed some set of rules. Two examples; One of the first things I offered to this list were some adapter cables for a token amount of $5. I felt pretty stupid when I found out what a fair market price was, and still think about it when I am about to offer something else cheap. Getting me up and out to a swapmeet at 7 am requires about all the willpower I have. The reason I do it is that that is the time many good items sell. So I walk up to a space, and kind of dumped in the back is a box of cables etc. I poke through it, pick up a couple items, but also take a good mental inventory, and start thinking about buying the whole box. When the seller comes over I ask him the price of the cables, and I respond to his price by dropping about 2/3 of what I have in my hand back in the box. How much for the whole box goes back and forth between us. Several things kind of happen at the same time, he quotes me a price for the box, I continue to dicker with him, another guy comes up and starts going through the box, I offer to pay the price he quoted me including letting the present person take a few of the cables. Now he tells me its too early to sell the whole box, and after some back and forth, not too heated, but making it clear I don't like having purchase terms changed, I leave. The box is immediately sold to the other guy for 2 1/2 times what it was offered to me for. This last one is especially bitter since it includes all the essential bitter ingredients, me being stupid and greedy, as well as someone else. All of us did things wrong, all of us were greedy, but I like to think that I am a "bit" cleaner than the other two since I didn't end up with either money or goods. The buyer still doesn't have a clue about swapmeet manners, rule number one, don't jump in the middle of another persons deal. The seller at least I think was aware of crossing a ethical line. Me, I haven't learned a thing. ;) From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Oct 15 06:09:14 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: Again 8/f (was: pdp8/f (now Amiga poster)) In-Reply-To: <199910132107.VAA20949@thorin.cs.umn.edu> References: from Tony Duell at "Oct 13, 1999 06:57:15 pm" Message-ID: <199910151010.MAA19471@horus.mch.sni.de> > > > Yes, it's insane over there. I received good advice from this list about > > > the value of those two SGI hardware manuals I almost gave away for free... > > > the auction for one is at $121 this morning. > > Are you saying that you offered something for free here (or for the cost > > of shipping, or whatever), somebody told you it was worth real money on > > e-bay, so you decided to sell it there? > > If so, then I regard this as _very_ unethical behaviour, and not at all > > what I'd expect from a classic computer enthusiast. > Well, I dont agree with this at all. As an example, last week the junk > dealer that I got my PDP8/e from, in a discussion about other computers > with front panel switches that I might be interested in, brought up > the subject of an IMSAI. I told him those were worth a lot of money these > days,.... Well, you might just miss each other (in fact, thats not hard to archive with Tony :). He was talking about an agreed deal, a serious issue, while you are just explain what to do to help someone to evaluate the worth (and not take a cheap profit). Anyway, to come back for the title: Whats an 8/f in working condition worth ? I'he been offered one via a friend. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Jgzabol at aol.com Fri Oct 15 05:59:41 1999 From: Jgzabol at aol.com (Jgzabol@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: RL02s available Message-ID: <0.c75ca7aa.2538631d@aol.com> Hi all, there are 5 RL02 drives sitting at a scrapper in the San Diego area. All Computer Surplus 297 S Marshall Ave El Cajun Since I am travelling, no time at hand, and furthermore facing the 50 Hz/60 Hz problem, I could not do anything about it. John G. Zabolitzky From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Oct 15 08:31:25 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: RL02s available Message-ID: <991015093125.236002b9@trailing-edge.com> >there are 5 RL02 drives sitting at a scrapper in the San Diego area. >All Computer Surplus 297 S Marshall Ave El Cajun >Since I am travelling, no time at hand, and furthermore facing the 50 Hz/60 Hz >problem, I could not do anything about it. Now I've never used a RL02 drive on 50Hz power, but I'm 99% certain that the motor speed in a RL02 is determined by a servo loop, and thus not locked to a multiple of the AC frequency. I think the fan in a 50Hz RL02 will run a bit slower, but I don't think this will hurt anything. The power selector blocks on the back of the drive allow the selection of 90-128VAC or 180-256VAC. All my (US) RL02 drives have stickers on the back saying "120V, 60Hz", but I think the voltage is just the factor configuration and the "Hz" is just an anachronism. In my RL01/02 books the presence of a 50Hz option isn't even mentioned, though the tables specify that it's designed for 60Hz power. If folks know otherwise, they're welcome to correct me! John G. Zabolitzky From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Oct 15 09:38:12 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: Zenith Z-90 In-Reply-To: <380654D9.83274997@awcoldstream.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991015093812.4c170a64@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi Anil, Welcome to the list. What's a Z-90? I have a Z-100 but I've never heard of a Z-90. Joe At 05:10 PM 10/14/99 -0500, you wrote: >Hello, > >Thsi is my first post to the list. My apologies if this is off topic. > >I looking for Zenith Z90 computer. > >Thank you > >Anil > From awcl at awcoldstream.com Fri Oct 15 08:56:37 1999 From: awcl at awcoldstream.com (awcl) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: Zenith Z-90 References: <3.0.1.16.19991015093812.4c170a64@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <38073295.79CF7725@awcoldstream.com> I guess, this is CPM based ( Do not ask me about CPM) Z-80 based computer made by Zinith Data Systems. I have one like this. Still running it. It is kind of getting flaky. I just want to find another one. tks Anil Joe wrote: > > Hi Anil, > > Welcome to the list. What's a Z-90? I have a Z-100 but I've never heard > of a Z-90. > > Joe > > At 05:10 PM 10/14/99 -0500, you wrote: > >Hello, > > > >Thsi is my first post to the list. My apologies if this is off topic. > > > >I looking for Zenith Z90 computer. > > > >Thank you > > > >Anil > > From daniel at internet.look.ca Fri Oct 15 08:54:42 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: collectors vs. enthusiasts Message-ID: <008b01bf1714$d553ffe0$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> Well I think the bids on PDP 8s will finally tone down on EBay. The guy that paid $1300 for the case needed it because he had CPU boards. He bid $300 on my boards and placed ANOTHER 7 bids in the last 15 miniutes to make sure he would not get snipered under $1000 for them. It looks like he really wants to run a PDP 8/e. But... I see this morning someone put up a PDP 8e doc set on EBay so I wonder how many $100s he will pay for that. Now that he has what he wanted it looks like the 8 stuff will sell for the usual $500 or less on EBay. P.S. If someone put up a Desktop Honeywell 716 on EBay I would probably do the same thing. john -----Original Message----- From: Kevin McQuiggin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, October 14, 1999 2:00 AM Subject: Re: collectors vs. enthusiasts >At 05:14 PM 99/10/13 -0600, you wrote: >>I think we are seeing some of the same thing in computers, >>and eBay (and other auction sites) make it easy for them. >>Hopefully this is just a passing fad. If enough of these >>"investors" get burned they may not return. > >For what it's worth, I'm also an enthusiast/collector of old radios from >the 1920s and 30s, and eBay has caused the same thing to happen with prices >in that realm. Old radios and speakers are changing hands at values far >above what they're actually "worth", based on the number still in >existence, the technologies used, etc. > >This cost craziness has even spilled over into the local secondhand/antique >market, where radios that used to be fairly priced at say $100 are now >price tagged at say $400-$500. > >I think that speculation on eBay has caused prices to rise artifically, to >the detriment of those who seek to acquire for love of the technology and >the fun of getting old radios (or old computers) working again. These >things are significant parts of history that will be lost unless some folks >care enough to preserve them. > >Kevin > > >--- >Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD >mcquiggi@sfu.ca > From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Fri Oct 15 09:01:36 1999 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: listproc? Testing this list Message-ID: <8025680B.004CB6AC.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Jay wrote: > Is there something wrong with the list? > > A) It's unusually quiet > B) I've recently seen people talking about messages I'm fairly certain I > never saw > C) I suspect one or two of my messages never went out > > Just testing..... Quiet? I wouldn't say that. This week it's been at sixty or seventy messages per diem, about twice what it was last week. Not up to the hundred or more that we sometimes observe, thankfully... Philip. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. Power Technology Centre, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, Nottingham, NG11 0EE, UK Tel: +44 (0)115 936 2000 http://www.powertech.co.uk ********************************************************************** From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Oct 15 09:07:48 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: RL02s available In-Reply-To: <991015093125.236002b9@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > Now I've never used a RL02 drive on 50Hz power, but I'm 99% certain that > the motor speed in a RL02 is determined by a servo loop, and thus > not locked to a multiple of the AC frequency. > > I think the fan in a 50Hz RL02 will run a bit slower, but I don't think > this will hurt anything. Motor speed is controled by line mains freq. I think the 50hz unit has a differnt spindle size. I havent looked under one in 15 years. Allison From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Fri Oct 15 09:10:45 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: Idle thoughts, irony... Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991015071045.00946b60@mail.bluefeathertech.com> While reading the usual morning mail, a bit of irony chased its way through my gray matter. While on my recent trip to the Bay Area, both to attend part of VCF and do a little scrounging, I was high bidder for a nice HP 545A logic probe a fellow had up on E-pay (around $25 if I recall). I was able to pick it up while on said trip, as he lived in south San Jose. Picking this up completed my collection of HP's logic probe/troubleshooting family: Probe, pulser, and current tracer. To this day, I still consider this set one of the best for poking around in both legacy and current logic circuits. A few months back, when I'd gotten hold of the current tracer, several folks were envious, though I couldn't understand why even after asking around and getting a basic idea of what it was used for. I'm now well into my second year towards my A.A.S. degree in Electronics, and my current class is Intro to Digital circuits. I find it most ironic that my textbook, published less than a year ago, should make extensive reference to all THREE HP probes (which were first developed in the mid-70's or earlier), including the current tracer, and show clear illustrations of how they're all used to find stuck levels, shorted inputs, etc. What works well does indeed endure. ;-) I do not regret going back to college, despite the effort of cramming Boolean algebra and Karnaugh maps into my gray matter! (though I find I really do like working with Karnaughs. They simplify things immensely!) On we go... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Oct 15 09:10:22 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: Zenith Z-90 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19991015093812.4c170a64@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: > Hi Anil, > > Welcome to the list. What's a Z-90? I have a Z-100 but I've never heard > of a Z-90. Z90, z89, z88 are version of the same system based on the H19 terminal and a Z80 board to run HDOS or CPM. The differences were IO and disk systems. The Z100 was 8088/z80(or was it 8085) and had a S100 bus section, very different machine. Allison From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Oct 15 10:09:24 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: listproc? Testing this list In-Reply-To: <8025680B.004CB6AC.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Message-ID: <199910151410.QAA27312@horus.mch.sni.de> > A) It's unusually quiet Nop > B) I've recently seen people talking about messages I'm fairly certain I > never saw Jep, I had the same feeling. People are answering to messages I never got. > C) I suspect one or two of my messages never went out Anyway, still enough to talk :) Gruss H. -- Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh. H.Achternbusch From sheehan at switchboardmail.com Fri Oct 15 09:55:33 1999 From: sheehan at switchboardmail.com (Bill Sheehan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: Zenith Z-90 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Z90 was the "enhanced" version of the Z89. So far as I can tell, the main enhancement was 16 K more RAM (for a total of 64K). I've had one for time out of mind now - I really should fire it up again. -- Bill On Fri, 15 Oct 1999 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > Hi Anil, > > > > Welcome to the list. What's a Z-90? I have a Z-100 but I've never heard > > of a Z-90. > > Z90, z89, z88 are version of the same system based on the H19 terminal and > a Z80 board to run HDOS or CPM. The differences were IO and disk systems. > > The Z100 was 8088/z80(or was it 8085) and had a S100 bus section, very > different machine. > > Allison > > > From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Oct 15 11:09:16 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: RL02s available Message-ID: <991015120916.236002d1@trailing-edge.com> >> Now I've never used a RL02 drive on 50Hz power, but I'm 99% certain that >> the motor speed in a RL02 is determined by a servo loop, and thus >> not locked to a multiple of the AC frequency. >> >> I think the fan in a 50Hz RL02 will run a bit slower, but I don't think >> this will hurt anything. >Motor speed is controled by line mains freq. I think the 50hz unit has >a differnt spindle size. I havent looked under one in 15 years. What you say certainly describes the RK05, lots of 8" floppy drives with AC-drive motors and belts, and many other 14" disk drives, but I'm now 99.44% certain that there's a servo loop for motor speed regulation in a RL02 and that it's not tied to having a mathematical relationship of pulley sizes or the AC line frequency. In fact, my "RL01/RL02 Disk Drive Maintenance Course" textbook says: The circuits controlling the drive motor in line are located on two modules. The drive logic module decodes the speed of the rotating spindle and sends the signals to the AC servo module which controls the drive motor's duty cycle. The disk speed control portion of the DLM monitors the sector pulse that is created from the reluctance pick-up and shaped by the circults on page DL6. This shaped sector pulse, called sector detect, and the clock from the interface logic are used by the counting logic to determine how much time is elapsing between sector pulses. The result is a signal called Control Speed-up, which is sensed by the AC servo module. When active, it increases the duty cycle of the drive motor from 20% to 60%, speeding up the cartridge. If the disk is within the speed limits., Control Speed-up is negated, allowing the drive motor to run at a 20% duty cycle. This indicates that the master clock setting the drive rotation rate comes from the interface board in the Q-bus/Unibus/Omnibus (I believe this is in turn derived from a crystal oscillator), and that it is not directly tied to the AC line frequency. Indeed, if you put a not-RL01 or not-RL02 pack in a RL drive and try to spin it up, the fact that the sector gaps aren't present in the same number means that it'll spin up to a different speed than if you have a real RL pack in the drive. There may be a separate "50Hz" RL drive variant, but I've not seen any indication of its existence here in North America, in parts lists, user's manauls, or in maintenance guides. I'm sure some of our more international members will have better information than I do. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Oct 15 11:21:41 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: PDP 11/40 available (Oregon) Message-ID: MOVing back into the season of hiding out in the 'Garage' to work on winter projects, the Garage seems a bit more space constrained than makes for a comfortable working area, so a bit of redistribution may be in order. To that end: Available: (2) PDP-11/40 CPUs. When I acquired them the intent was for one unit to be restored with the other as a spare/backup/parts unit. Both are currently in standard six foot tall DEC corporate racks, although only one of the racks is offered in this deal. Functional condition of both units is unknown. I did some work on the primary CPU a couple of years ago and it seemed (at the time) to be reasonably coherent, but since it has set idle for a year or so, no promises. Both are reasonably outfitted, lots of backplane space and cards. And no, I don't recall what all is there right off hand. For someone SERIOUSLY interested in obtaining the units I will take a look. They really should go as a pair, but under the proper circumstances I could be convinced otherwise... How much? Well... that one is open for discussion... Trades are always interesting, for ideas check the 'Most Wanted' list on the 'Garage' website. For those offering green? I'm listening... Getting them from here to there? That's up to you... I'll help extract them from the Garage, but from that point 'yer on yer own...' B^} There is a picture of the '40 on the website if you want to have a look see... Let the games begin! -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 >>> Coming soon to www.computergarage.org - the CBBS/NW on-line archives From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Oct 15 11:28:57 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: Avaiable: old IMSAI chassis Message-ID: Further to my efforts to free up some room, a smaller item of possible interest. A (very) old IMSAI 8080 chassis. Consists of the chassis, IMSAI backplane, 10amp (point to point wiring) power supply, IMSAI CPU card, display mask and plexiglass panels. Missing the front panel board, upper cover, grey switch bezel. (it gave of itself to restore a number of other machines over the years) Trades or offers of $$ entertained... (before I give in to the siren call of ePay... B^} ) For trade suggestions check out the 'Most wanted' section on the 'Garage' web site. Have at you! -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 >>> Coming soon to www.computergarage.org - the CBBS/NW on-line archives From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Fri Oct 15 11:53:02 1999 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: Same old question (Ohio Scientific) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Greetings Jim! Unable to make VCF.... Do you remember seeing any OSI equipment? Still looking for a c4-mf or a c8p-df.... George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Fri, 15 Oct 1999, James Willing wrote: > Further to my efforts to free up some room, a smaller item of possible > interest. > > A (very) old IMSAI 8080 chassis. Consists of the chassis, IMSAI > backplane, 10amp (point to point wiring) power supply, IMSAI CPU card, > display mask and plexiglass panels. Missing the front panel board, upper > cover, grey switch bezel. (it gave of itself to restore a number of > other machines over the years) > > Trades or offers of $$ entertained... (before I give in to the siren call > of ePay... B^} ) For trade suggestions check out the 'Most wanted' > section on the 'Garage' web site. > > Have at you! > -jim > --- > jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com > The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org > Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 > > >>> Coming soon to www.computergarage.org - the CBBS/NW on-line archives > > > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Oct 15 12:56:38 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: Vic20 help.. In-Reply-To: <498.953T939T12843091@gmx.net> References: <000801bf140d$b37e6a40$59265da6@jester> Message-ID: <199910151657.SAA01508@horus.mch.sni.de> > >2. My other Vic20 works "ok" But when I load a cart it does not start up > >right away. How do I load a cart? I know LOAD "*",8,1 is for disks. But whats > >for carts? > Some of the cart`s need a sys to start them, try sys32692 And some of them add just HW and/or ROM extensions that do not give any hint at all - unless you read the manual. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 15 12:21:40 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: PDP 11/40 available (Oregon) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >There is a picture of the '40 on the website if you want to have a look >see... So what is above the CPU in the taller picture? I'm still trying to figure out where to put a rack. What all is in the rack you're getting rid of, and what if any drives are included? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 15 12:28:47 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: Not awake yet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Arrghh, that last wasn't supposed to go here :^( Really need some coffee! Guess this means I should read eMail before my first cup of coffee. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Oct 15 12:35:37 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: PDP 11/40 available (Oregon) Message-ID: <991015133537.236002e8@trailing-edge.com> >>There is a picture of the '40 on the website if you want to have a look >>see... >So what is above the CPU in the taller picture? It looks like a paper-tape reader to me, but it may also be a punch - I can't tell from the tiny little picture. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Oct 15 13:08:13 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: PDP 11/40 available (Oregon) In-Reply-To: <991015133537.236002e8@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Oct 1999 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >>There is a picture of the '40 on the website if you want to have a look > >>see... > > >So what is above the CPU in the taller picture? > > It looks like a paper-tape reader to me, but it may also be a punch - > I can't tell from the tiny little picture. If you click on the little picture... You get a big one! (like it says near the top of the page) B^} I suspect though he is asking about the switch panel rather that the reader/punch above it (which is not part of the deal) -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 >>> Coming soon to www.computergarage.org - the CBBS/NW on-line archives From bill at chipware.com Fri Oct 15 13:20:02 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: Same old question (Ohio Scientific) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002901bf1739$e5fb7560$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > Unable to make VCF.... > > Do you remember seeing any OSI equipment? > > Still looking for a c4-mf or a c8p-df.... > > George Not for sale... There was one CIII (I think) on display making music. Bill From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 15 13:27:45 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: Idle thoughts, irony... References: <3.0.5.32.19991015071045.00946b60@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <9910151441400I.03844@vault.neurotica.com> On Fri, 15 Oct 1999, Bruce Lane wrote: > I'm now well into my second year towards my A.A.S. degree in Electronics, >and my current class is Intro to Digital circuits. I find it most ironic >that my textbook, published less than a year ago, should make extensive >reference to all THREE HP probes (which were first developed in the >mid-70's or earlier), including the current tracer, and show clear >illustrations of how they're all used to find stuck levels, shorted inputs, >etc. > > What works well does indeed endure. ;-) I've found that there are very definite categories of electronic stuff that tend to get "outdated" at different rates. PCs (meaning Intel-based Windoze boxes) are at one end of the range, with the average motherboard design being produced for at most five months, and RF & analog test equipment being at the other end of the range, with products often lasting for 20-25 years or more. The conversations I have with non-electronics people who walk into my RF lab are often very funny. They'll see the purchase & calibration date stickers on something like my Tektronix 492 spectrum analyzer or the HP 3325A synthesized function generator and see that they're in excess of ten years old. I can tell who the PC people are by their statements like "Wow! Why are you using that old thing? Surely there's something newer! How can it possibly still work?!" when (as any electronics buffs here know full well) that argument is completely bogus. Take that current tracer, for example. There's absolutely *nothing* in the functionality of that unit that would be improved in the least by any advances in electronic technology in the past 15 years...much less in the past one year. While, at the other end of the range, a new PC motherboard needs to be brought to market every few months to keep up with the processor-clock-itis that drives the PC world. The conversations I have with non-electronics people who walk into my RF lab are often very funny. They'll see the purchase & calibration date stickers on something like my Tektronix 492 spectrum analyzer or the HP 3325A synthesized function generator and see that they're in excess of ten years old. I can tell who the PC people are by their statements like "Wow! Why are you using that old thing? Surely there's something newer! How can it possibly still work?!" when (as any electronics buffs here know full well) that argument is completely bogus. This is the main reason why the PCs and other stuff at that end of the range tend to have zero resale value, while stuff at the other end hold their prices in the used market for many years. A government surplus place that I frequent is where I see this in action...they get stuff in by the truckload, ranging from PCs to minis to comm gear to test equipment. The PCs, sometimes as recent as Pentium boxes that, by their stickers, are two years old, go straight to the scrap pile...while the nearly 25-year-old HP 141T spectrum analyzers get gingerly carried inside and wiped down, ready to be sold for in excess of a thousand dollars. -Dave McGuire From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Oct 15 13:42:57 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: pdp8/f (now Amiga poster) Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991015134257.00fa5a30@vpwisfirewall> From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Fri Oct 15 13:55:14 1999 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: pdp8/f (now Amiga poster) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991015134257.00fa5a30@vpwisfirewall> from John Foust at "Oct 15, 1999 01:42:57 pm" Message-ID: <19991015185923Z433844-17959+227@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > > >From the "eBay is so weird" category, I recently had a friend tell > me about the auctions related to online games such as Ultima and > Everquest. People are using real-world money to buy fake money > and imaginary objects in the game world, all so they can compete > in the fashion their brain desires. > We work fairly closely with a number of the companies in the games industry, and this has often been a topic of discussion. This has been going on before eBay. There are people who basically play these games for a living. They start with a new character and play the game literally 8 hour a day, 5 or 6 days a week. Once the character has a suitable level of experience they sell the character and start over again. Once you get good at the games you can make a reasonable living this way. By the way, a good character can be sold for more than $10,000, but I doubt these transactions occur on eBay (but, I could be wrong). -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Oct 15 14:16:51 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: Zenith Z-90 In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19991015093812.4c170a64@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <4.1.19991015151522.00a90bf0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 10:10 AM 10/15/99 -0400, allisonp@world.std.com said something like: >> Hi Anil, >> >> Welcome to the list. What's a Z-90? I have a Z-100 but I've never heard >> of a Z-90. > >Z90, z89, z88 are version of the same system based on the H19 terminal and >a Z80 board to run HDOS or CPM. The differences were IO and disk systems. > >The Z100 was 8088/z80(or was it 8085) and had a S100 bus section, very 8085. The machine ran CP/M-85 on the 8085 side and MSDOS on the 8088 side. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Oct 15 15:38:03 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: Zenith Z-90 In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19991015093812.4c170a64@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991015153803.3a8f96b6@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 10:10 AM 10/15/99 -0400, Alison wrote: >> Hi Anil, >> >> Welcome to the list. What's a Z-90? I have a Z-100 but I've never heard >> of a Z-90. > >Z90, z89, z88 are version of the same system based on the H19 terminal and >a Z80 board to run HDOS or CPM. The differences were IO and disk systems. OK. I'd never heard of the Z or H 90. I'm very familar with the H-89 but I didn't know it was available in the Z (Zenith) version. I thought Zenith got involved with HeathKit after the H-89 was dropped. > >The Z100 was 8088/z80(or was it 8085) and had a S100 bus section, very >different machine. Yes, I know. And it was a 8088. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Oct 15 15:49:01 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: Cool new toy! Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991015154901.3ad740f6@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi Folks, I finally got something that I've been after for a long time. It's a Tektronix System Test Fixture, PN 067-0746-00. It's for the Tektronix 4051 computer, 4662 Plotter, 4924 Tape unit and other Tektronix items that use the 6800 CPU. It's a box with switches and indicator lights that lets you halt the system CPU and view and change the contents of any memory location, single step the system, etc. You can also set it to halt the system when it gets to a certain address or when a certain data word occurrs. It also contains a ROM with test routines for the 40551 computer. A friend of mine found this at a flea market and I've been trying to get it away from him for months. My persistance finally paid off. Joe From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 15 14:45:10 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: Cool new toy! References: <3.0.1.16.19991015154901.3ad740f6@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <9910151545320R.03844@vault.neurotica.com> On Wed, 31 Dec 1969, Joe wrote: > I finally got something that I've been after for a long time. It's a >Tektronix System Test Fixture, PN 067-0746-00. It's for the Tektronix 4051 >computer, 4662 Plotter, 4924 Tape unit and other Tektronix items that use >the 6800 CPU. It's a box with switches and indicator lights that lets you >halt the system CPU and view and change the contents of any memory >location, single step the system, etc. You can also set it to halt the >system when it gets to a certain address or when a certain data word >occurrs. It also contains a ROM with test routines for the 40551 computer. >A friend of mine found this at a flea market and I've been trying to get it >away from him for months. My persistance finally paid off. Cool! Can you put some pics online? -Dave McGuire From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 15 13:10:06 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: Zenith Z-90 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19991015093812.4c170a64@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Oct 15, 99 09:38:12 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 831 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991015/780ea4d3/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 15 12:41:50 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: pdp8/f (now Amiga poster) In-Reply-To: <01be01bf16be$705550e0$1ee893c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Oct 15, 99 04:18:39 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 359 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991015/1fa8d808/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 15 13:18:48 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: RL02s available In-Reply-To: <991015093125.236002b9@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Oct 15, 99 09:31:25 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1321 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991015/e9b63943/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 15 13:29:19 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: Zenith Z-90 In-Reply-To: <38073295.79CF7725@awcoldstream.com> from "awcl" at Oct 15, 99 08:56:37 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2152 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991015/5c05ff13/attachment.ksh From awcl at awcoldstream.com Fri Oct 15 17:00:37 1999 From: awcl at awcoldstream.com (awcl) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: Zenith Z-90 References: Message-ID: <3807A405.4320D772@awcoldstream.com> Tony , Thanks for the advice. I got mine running. There is a switch on the bottom of the screen that sits with 110/220 setting called normal/low. (what is it anyway??) I guess that had a contact problem. And I am still looking for one. If you ...... And I do have few question too. 1. If monitor does not get fired up, computer wont't start up right? I mean it reads floppy for about three seconds and lose the state and sits idle. One I have is connected to a automatic calibrator. If every thing goes right calibration head moves back and forth and get the distance. If monitor does not get power, it does not do any calibration. 2. On the terminal there are two dip switches. one to set up like cr with line feed and so on. One setting there is ZDS and ANSI. Do you know what ZDS ( must be Zenith Data Syatems) maps to. Their own keyboard mapping scheme, Communication or .... tks again. Anil Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > I guess, this is CPM based ( Do not ask me about CPM) Z-80 based > > Actually, it runs either CP/M or HDOS (I have both, with manuals). > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Oct 15 17:14:32 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: pdp8/f (now Amiga poster) In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: pdp8/f (now Amiga poster)" (Oct 15, 18:41) References: Message-ID: <9910152314.ZM12739@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 15, 18:41, Tony Duell wrote: > Subject: Re: pdp8/f (now Amiga poster) > > case of good manners. Once you've made a deal with someone you simply don't > > back out just because you got a better offer etc - it's just NOT done! :-( > > One thing I've learnt from this thread is that there are people here who > I do not intend to make deals with -- ever. Their standard of behaviour > and mine are just too different. Before anyone gets too much more upset by this discussion, perhaps I should mention that John just told me that if I really wanted the book, he thought it had once been available on the web. That reminded me of something I checked out a year or two ago. The curious might investigate https://toolbox.sgi.com/toolbox/hardware/hwHandbook/ but don't expect vast amounts of serious technical info. BTW, if anyone has the "GIO Bus Specification" referred to in Chapter 4, I'd like a copy :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Oct 15 16:56:52 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: RL02s available In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: RL02s available" (Oct 15, 19:18) References: Message-ID: <9910152256.ZM12722@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 15, 19:18, Tony Duell wrote: > > Now I've never used a RL02 drive on 50Hz power, but I'm 99% certain that > > the motor speed in a RL02 is determined by a servo loop, and thus > > not locked to a multiple of the AC frequency. > > Currect. From the RL01/RL02 Technical Manual : > > 'RL01/RL02 drives are shipped from the factory as 115Vac/60Hz units. > Field change to 230Vac 50 or 60Hz is acoomplished by reversing either of > two terminal block covers located externally at the rear of the drive. > The RL drives run the motor at considerably below synchronous speed. They > control the motor speed with a couple of triacs on the AC Servo Module, > and measure the speed (IIRC) using the sector pulse timing. That's why > the disk spins _very_ fast if you forget to plug the transducer in... Or if the AC servo board goes in certain ways, as I discovered in one of a pair I got from Heriot-Watt University: the local DEC engineer had at some time in the dim and distant passed fixed one drive by swapping the AC servo for one that was rarely used. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From elvey at hal.com Fri Oct 15 17:41:00 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: Zenith Z-90 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199910152241.PAA14161@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > Mine is a Z-90 with a H-17 controlling the internal drive, and an H-37 > (soft sectord double density) controlling a pair of external drives. > > -tony Hi Tony You are aware that if you interleave the sectors in the internal drive, the drive performance will increase by a hugh factor. Dwight From peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk Fri Oct 15 09:26:11 1999 From: peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:54 2005 Subject: Collecting IBM Manuals References: <0.7606f317.25381679@aol.com> Message-ID: <001601bf1763$747ccb80$2c0d883e@proteus> Hi, > does anyone collect IBM manuals from the mainframe line.... Actually, does anyone have any hardware manuals for the AS/400 line? I've got a 9404 I want to get running.... TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk Fri Oct 15 09:41:09 1999 From: peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: PS/2 Model 50 help wanted Message-ID: <001701bf1763$7556fee0$2c0d883e@proteus> I've already posted this to the PS/2 newsgroup but thought I'd drop it in here too just in case - I believe the machine in question is old enough (or odd enough) to qualify. Basically I'm in the process of restoring a Model 50 I was given recently and was wondering if anyone could point me at a technical reference guide for the machine? I also have a couple of questions. 1) The machine contains what I assume to be the hard disc controller, what capacity/type of drives will the machine accept - and where can I get one? 2) Can the machine accept 2.88Mb drives (this one is purely out of interest)? 3) There is an expansion card with no markings on installed in the slot farthest away from the PSU. It is connected to what appears to be the processor socket ('286 right?) by a section of flexible PCB. The card has a daughter board attached which is about half as long as the card. The visible part of the main PCB contains three (empty) 72-pin SIMM sockets. Any ideas on what this may be (some sort of turbo board, 386SX upgrade, etc)? Was it fitted as standard or was it added later? 4) The "paddle" on the power switch has been broken off. Can I get a replacement switch or do I need to get a new PSU? Thanks. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 15 19:24:24 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: Zenith Z-90 In-Reply-To: <3807A405.4320D772@awcoldstream.com> from "awcl" at Oct 15, 99 05:00:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 437 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991016/97d41e70/attachment.ksh From west at tseinc.com Fri Oct 15 20:01:33 1999 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: RL02s available References: <0.c75ca7aa.2538631d@aol.com> Message-ID: <006701bf1771$fe107d20$0101a8c0@jay> It had been written..... > there are 5 RL02 drives sitting at a scrapper in the San Diego area. > All Computer Surplus 297 S Marshall Ave El Cajun > Since I am travelling, no time at hand, and furthermore facing the 50 Hz/60 Hz > problem, I could not do anything about it. > > John G. Zabolitzky I'd love to get an RL02 or two, but alas, no time or money to deal with it at the moment! Grrrr.... Jay West From west at tseinc.com Fri Oct 15 20:07:29 1999 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: Fw: PDP-11/44 assistance.... (possible repost??) Message-ID: <007d01bf1772$d2140060$0101a8c0@jay> I didn't ever see an answer to this post nor am I sure it ever went out. Sorry if this is a repost... ----- Original Message ----- From: Jay West To: Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 1999 8:01 PM Subject: PDP-11/44 assistance.... > Tony had asked about what chips were in the standard memories board that I > posted about.... > > It is Standard Memories MM-144. Unibus: there's two rows of 20 ram chips > each, and underneath that is two rows of 20 empty sockets each. Underneath > that is two rows of 19 ram chips each, and underneath it is two rows of 19 > empty sockets each. So, (2x20)+(2x19)=78 chips total. The chips are all OKI > M3764-20RS. On the right side of the board on the top are three LED's > designated +5B, RUN, and U.ERR. Underneath that is a 14 pin DIP jumper pad, > and two 8 switch DIPS. Any ideas on how much memory this is and would anyone > happen to have docs on this board? > > Also, I think my previous post about the modules in the 44 wasn't listed > correctly. The slots are filled as follows: > > 1 A-B M7090 CIM > 4 A-F M7094 > 5 A-F M7095 > 6 A-F M7096 > 7 A-F M7097 > 8 A-F M7098 > 10 A-F MM-144 (see above) > 14 A-B first half of M9202 > 15 A-B 2nd half of M9202 > 16 D G727A > 23 M9302 > > I found it odd (to my very uninformed mind) that the G727A was stock in slot > 16 D with nothing else around it. If I don't want to hook anything up to > this system other than a serial console for now, how should I move the above > cards around to prevent continuity problems??? > > Thanks in advance! > > Jay West > > > From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Oct 15 20:29:54 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: PS/2 Model 50 help wanted Message-ID: <199910160129.VAA20746@world.std.com> I have one of these PS2/M50Z. Nice boxen! There wer two versions the M50 and the M50Z. The latter was the faster 286 of the two. <1) The machine contains what I assume to be the hard disc controller, what Message-ID: >I didn't ever see an answer to this post nor am I sure it ever went out. >Sorry if this is a repost... It did, but at the time I didn't have any spare time to think about computers. >> 1 A-B M7090 CIM >> 4 A-F M7094 >> 5 A-F M7095 >> 6 A-F M7096 >> 7 A-F M7097 >> 8 A-F M7098 >> 10 A-F MM-144 (see above) >> 14 A-B first half of M9202 >> 15 A-B 2nd half of M9202 >> 16 D G727A >> 23 M9302 >> >> I found it odd (to my very uninformed mind) that the G727A was stock in >slot >> 16 D with nothing else around it. If I don't want to hook anything up to >> this system other than a serial console for now, how should I move the >above >> cards around to prevent continuity problems??? Try the following, you'll loose the slots in the second backplane, but since it doesn't look like you've got any other boards, don't think it will matter. Not quite sure what you can do without any kind of drives. When I was getting my /44 up and running this Summer, I had it in this config while testing so it should work. Main difference being you having a non-DEC RAM board. Wait, I take that back, I might have not run this without a RL02 controller in slot 13. 1 A-B M7090 CIM 4 A-F M7094 5 A-F M7095 6 A-F M7096 7 A-F M7097 8 A-F M7098 9 A-F MM-144 (see above) 14 M9302 >> 14 A-B first half of M9202 >> 15 A-B 2nd half of M9202 The G727A is grant continuity board. In the second backplane you need these or the other style in empty slots. >> 16 D G727A Hope this helps, let me know if you've questions and I can try and help. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From stanp at storm.ca Fri Oct 15 22:26:48 1999 From: stanp at storm.ca (Stan Pietkiewicz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: VaxStation Questions Message-ID: <3807F078.98DD25AC@storm.ca> I recently added a VAXStation 3100 M48 to my collection. As with almost every other bit I've added, I got a few questions: 1) The output from a >>> sh mem command is: 01000000 00000000 00FE3E00:00FFFFFF What does this translate to??? 2) What monitor would I need / be able to use with this box? I'm using VT320 for a console now, but the thought of an OpenVMSWindows box has potential.... 3) When I try to boot from the external RZ55 I got with it, VMS 5.5.2 comes up and hangs (solid) after displaying: %TMSCPLOAD-I-LOADTMSCP, loading the TMSCP tape server This happens even trying to boot to VMS's single user mode, and with or without a TK50Z attached... Any thoughts??? Thanks.... Stan From sms at antinode.org Fri Oct 15 22:28:29 1999 From: sms at antinode.org (sms@antinode.org) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: VaxStation Questions Message-ID: <99101522282961@antinode.org> Mr. Pietkiewicz: > 1) The output from a >>> sh mem command is: > 01000000 > 00000000 > 00FE3E00:00FFFFFF > What does this translate to??? I'd say 16MB (1000000 hexadecimal). > 2) What monitor would I need / be able to use with this box? I'm using > VT320 for a console now, but the thought of an OpenVMSWindows box has > potential.... Assuming the (cheaper) GPX graphics, 1024x864, 60Hz vertical (?), one DEC monitor is the (19-inch) VR299. A Web search on that should provide more details. If you got the (deluxe) SPX graphics, then it's 1280x1024, 67Hz vertical (?). I'm using an HP 98754A on my AlphaStation, and I'd bet that it'd work with an SPX card in the VAXstation, too. You could steal the keyboard from your VT320 (or a VT220, and probably others). The mouse (DECburger) is a VSXXX-AA, and it's pretty DEC-specific. > 3) When I try to boot from the external RZ55 I got with it, VMS 5.5.2 > comes up and hangs (solid) after displaying: > %TMSCPLOAD-I-LOADTMSCP, loading the TMSCP tape server > This happens even trying to boot to VMS's single user mode, and > with or without a TK50Z attached... What's "VMS's single user mode"? Whether the tape drive is connected should not affect this, agreeing with your observation. I suspect that it is trying to form or join a cluster, and, as its old cluster pals are all missing, it's unable to get a quorum. You need to do a conversational boot, and set the SYSGEN parameters VOTES and EXPECTED_VOTES both to 1 (so it won't expect to find anyone else), or else VAXCLUSTER to 0, so it won't do any cluster stuff. The procedure's probably in the FAQ, ""ftp://ftp.digital.com/pub/DEC/dec-faq/vms"", but something like the following might be close: >>> B/1 [device, if necessary] SYSBOOT> SHOW VOTES \ SYSBOOT> SHOW EXPECTED_VOTES /[If you're curious.] SYSBOOT> SET VOTES 1 SYSBOOT> SET EXPECTED_VOTES 1 SYSBOOT> WRITE CURRENT SYSBOOT> CONTINUE [Begin hoping here.] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda (+1) 651-645-9249 (voice, home) 1630 Marshall Avenue #8 (+1) 612-754-2636 (voice, work) Saint Paul MN 55104-6225 (+1) 612-754-6302 (facsimile, work) sms@antinode.org sms@provis.com (work) From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 15 22:54:17 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: VaxStation Questions In-Reply-To: <3807F078.98DD25AC@storm.ca> Message-ID: >2) What monitor would I need / be able to use with this box? I'm using >VT320 for a console now, but the thought of an OpenVMSWindows box has >potential.... Personally I prefer using another system with better video as an X-Terminal. I use eXodus on my Mac to display the desktop on my one AlphaStation, that way I can get 24-bit colour, without spending the $$$'s for a better graphics card. It also has the advantage of not needing a monitor :^) In the case of your VAXstation 3100 M48, it will require a large monitor that you most likely will not be able to use on any of your other systems. Just something to consider. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Oct 15 22:54:19 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: PS/2 Model 50 help wanted Message-ID: <0.81ecacf3.253950eb@aol.com> In a message dated 10/15/99 7:19:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk writes: > I've already posted this to the PS/2 newsgroup but thought I'd drop it in > here > too just in case - I believe the machine in question is old enough (or odd > enough) to qualify. > > Basically I'm in the process of restoring a Model 50 I was given recently > and > was wondering if anyone could point me at a technical reference guide for > the > machine? http://www.pc.ibm.com/us/cdt/hmm.html > I also have a couple of questions. > > 1) The machine contains what I assume to be the hard disc controller, what > capacity/type of drives will the machine accept - and where can I get one? you can only use drives originally assigned to the machine unless you want to go scsi external... > > 2) Can the machine accept 2.88Mb drives (this one is purely out of interest)? > no. not supported. > 3) There is an expansion card with no markings on installed in the slot > farthest away from the PSU. It is connected to what appears to be the > processor socket ('286 right?) by a section of flexible PCB. > > The card has a daughter board attached which is about half as long as the > card. The visible part of the main PCB contains three (empty) 72-pin SIMM > sockets. > > Any ideas on what this may be (some sort of turbo board, 386SX upgrade, etc)? run peter wendt's adaptor card id'er program. goto http://members.aol.com/mcapage0 the program is listed on the ps2 support page he has. > > Was it fitted as standard or was it added later? > > 4) The "paddle" on the power switch has been broken off. Can I get a > replacement switch or do I need to get a new PSU? only way to fix is replace ps from a parts machine. > > Thanks. > > > TTFN - Pete. DB Young Team OS/2 --> this message printed on recycled disk space view the computers of yesteryear at http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm (now accepting donations!) From af-list at wfi-inc.com Fri Oct 15 22:57:01 1999 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: VaxStation Questions In-Reply-To: <99101522282961@antinode.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Oct 1999 sms@antinode.org wrote: > Assuming the (cheaper) GPX graphics, 1024x864, 60Hz vertical (?), one > DEC monitor is the (19-inch) VR299. A Web search on that should provide > more details. If you got the (deluxe) SPX graphics, then it's > 1280x1024, 67Hz vertical (?). I'm using an HP 98754A on my > AlphaStation, and I'd bet that it'd work with an SPX card in the > VAXstation, too. You could steal the keyboard from your VT320 (or a > VT220, and probably others). The mouse (DECburger) is a VSXXX-AA, and > it's pretty DEC-specific. If you're looking for them, I've been seeing VS hockey pucks and keyboards pretty regularly on Haggle for the past few months... From stanp at storm.ca Fri Oct 15 23:09:26 1999 From: stanp at storm.ca (Stan Pietkiewicz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: VaxStation Questions References: <99101522282961@antinode.org> Message-ID: <3807FA76.F56F2694@storm.ca> sms@antinode.org wrote: > <> > > 3) When I try to boot from the external RZ55 I got with it, VMS 5.5.2 > > comes up and hangs (solid) after displaying: > > %TMSCPLOAD-I-LOADTMSCP, loading the TMSCP tape server > > > This happens even trying to boot to VMS's single user mode, and > > with or without a TK50Z attached... > > What's "VMS's single user mode"? The b/1 dkb0 boot command; I'm looking at this fro from a Unix point of view ;-}) > > > Whether the tape drive is connected should not affect this, agreeing > with your observation. > > I suspect that it is trying to form or join a cluster, and, as its > old cluster pals are all missing, it's unable to get a quorum. You need Hmmm.... I've seen a MV3400 boot looking for a cluster, but it just timed out when it could find one, and continued to boot... > to do a conversational boot, and set the SYSGEN parameters VOTES and > EXPECTED_VOTES both to 1 (so it won't expect to find anyone else), or > else VAXCLUSTER to 0, so it won't do any cluster stuff. > > The procedure's probably in the FAQ, > ""ftp://ftp.digital.com/pub/DEC/dec-faq/vms"", but something like the > following might be close: > I'll try this.... > >>> B/1 [device, if necessary] > SYSBOOT> SHOW VOTES \ > SYSBOOT> SHOW EXPECTED_VOTES /[If you're curious.] > SYSBOOT> SET VOTES 1 > SYSBOOT> SET EXPECTED_VOTES 1 > SYSBOOT> WRITE CURRENT > SYSBOOT> CONTINUE > Thanks!! Stan From stanp at storm.ca Fri Oct 15 23:13:53 1999 From: stanp at storm.ca (Stan Pietkiewicz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: VaxStation Questions References: Message-ID: <3807FB80.8C9B9124@storm.ca> Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > On Fri, 15 Oct 1999 sms@antinode.org wrote: > > > Assuming the (cheaper) GPX graphics, 1024x864, 60Hz vertical (?), one > > DEC monitor is the (19-inch) VR299. A Web search on that should provide > > more details. If you got the (deluxe) SPX graphics, then it's > > 1280x1024, 67Hz vertical (?). I'm using an HP 98754A on my > > AlphaStation, and I'd bet that it'd work with an SPX card in the > > VAXstation, too. You could steal the keyboard from your VT320 (or a > > VT220, and probably others). The mouse (DECburger) is a VSXXX-AA, and > > it's pretty DEC-specific. > > If you're looking for them, I've been seeing VS hockey pucks and keyboards > pretty regularly on Haggle for the past few months... Thanks for the pointer.... I managed to find one in a box of cables at the computer wreckers, but I have no idea if it works. I doubt if it would show up without using a graphics console... BTW, I also picked up a few monitor cables; one appears to be for a monochrome monitor (1 BNC connection on the far end ), another RGB.... Now to watch for a monitor.... Thanks!! Stan From daniel at internet.look.ca Fri Oct 15 23:36:42 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: Urgent Current Loop Question - ASR 33 / PT08 Message-ID: <002001bf1790$0c6f1840$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> Before I attempt to figure this one out I would like to know if anyone else can help me. I hooked up an ASR-33 (non DEC) to my PDP-8/s. I ran a maindec program and the PDP could talk to the teletype no problem, never an error. After spending 4 1/2 hours cleaning up bad solder joints on the receiver I got it up and running.... *kind of* The problem is this: The ASR-33 is interfaced to the PDP currently by tying one receive line to the input of a R107 (transistor inverter) and the other receiver line to the output of the same inverter. Then, the signal is *conditioned* (inverted) a few times before it is passed onto shift registers,,, etc.. If I hook up the teletype the WAY the circuit exists now I get a 0-1V data signal (notice positive) out of the first inverter which of course is totally incompatible with the others and the signal never passes through beyond the first inverter. If I disconnect the FIRST inverter from the second one and LEAVE the one receive line in the input of the first inverter ("floating") and hook up the SECOND receive line to the input of the now *disconnected* second inverter I get data. Most of the time good, but some bad characters get through. This is obviously not a working current loop solution. If the teletype is passive should I just connect the receive line on the input of the first inverter to ground or -3V??? Picture below: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------- The way it was: Receive #1 -----------|>o----------(Receive #2)----------|>o---------|>o--- etc.. The SIGNAL at receive #2 was 0 -> +1 Volt (data) The way it is now: Receive #1-------|>o--- [broken] Receive #2 -------|>o-------|>o------|>o---------- Clean looking data but flaky (prob due to the other *floating line*. #1) As I don't have docs nearby on the ASR-33 and have never had a VERY simple interface like this CAN I short the one receive line to ground or -3 volts???? I just want to make sure the ASR 33 does not have any active part that will eat my PT08 for breakfast. john From Innfogra at aol.com Sat Oct 16 03:14:07 1999 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: Dec ID questions Message-ID: <0.5c243649.25398dcf@aol.com> I am interested in finding out what some of these DEC products are and what systems they work on. Console panel KY11C M7228 KW11P RTclock M8265 CPU? M8266 CPU? M8090 ICS Controller? M6850 W7430 A005 Relays A007 Relays More of this batch are coming in. Also these, prob. OT due to age, but I am still curious. DEC 400X with RF31s & a TF 85. What size are the RF 31s & the tape. What systems does the 400X plug into. It looks like it has both SCSI I & SCSI II ports. DEC BA 350-KB case SCSI II BA 35X Power Module BA 35X-VA Power Supply TZ 87-VA Tape Drive No hard drives only the tape drive plugged in. I have another that is the same except the tape drive is a TX 87n-VA. What is the significats of the "n"? What is a DEC Infoserver 150? Thanks for the help. Paxton From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Oct 16 03:56:00 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: PS/2 Model 50 help wanted In-Reply-To: <001701bf1763$7556fee0$2c0d883e@proteus> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991016015600.0095a810@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 15:41 15-10-1999 +0100, you wrote: >1) The machine contains what I assume to be the hard disc controller, what >capacity/type of drives will the machine accept - and where can I get one? Hard to tell without seeing the controller, or knowing what flat cables are coming off it. IBM was quite fond of using a proprietary and oddly-wired interface that, apparently, only IBM drives could plug into. My advice would be to scare up an Adaptec 1640 or similar MCA SCSI adapter and just use SCSI drives. >2) Can the machine accept 2.88Mb drives (this one is purely out of interest)? That will take a wiser head than mine to answer. I know the model 85's and 95's can, but I'm not sure about the older systems. >3) There is an expansion card with no markings on installed in the slot >farthest away from the PSU. It is connected to what appears to be the >processor socket ('286 right?) by a section of flexible PCB. Whoa! That sounds like an aftermarket CPU upgrade board. God only knows who made it, though... >Was it fitted as standard or was it added later? Had to be later. IBM never made such things available that I know of. >4) The "paddle" on the power switch has been broken off. Can I get a >replacement switch or do I need to get a new PSU? You can go either way. Want me to see if I can find you either one at the local used computer place? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Oct 16 04:00:08 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: SoCal Dumont oscilliscope In-Reply-To: References: <01be01bf16be$705550e0$1ee893c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Oct 15, 99 04:18:39 am Message-ID: I have an old, 60's I would guess or older, tube type Dumont oscilliscope. I used it for audio stuff 15 years ago, and its been setting in the cool dry of my former studio since then. Cosmetic is pretty good, but I don't think I would just plug it in and hope for the best. Anyway I am not keeping it, either it sells for like $10 or I harvest the tubes and dump the carcass (what a nasty fellow). Email me if you are local and interested. It may ride with me to the Cal Poly Pomona hamfest in the morning. (sat 10/16). I will be the large geek in fishing hat with a bucket. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Oct 16 04:04:46 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: pdp8/f (now Amiga poster) In-Reply-To: References: <01be01bf16be$705550e0$1ee893c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Oct 15, 99 04:18:39 am Message-ID: >One thing I've learnt from this thread is that there are people here who >I do not intend to make deals with -- ever. Their standard of behaviour >and mine are just too different. I have no such bias, but I do treat individuals differently based on past experience. I make a large effort though to keep transactions, business, and not personal (ie regardless of what happens in the transaction it should have no effect on personal relationships). Eventually I may even learn to be polite all the time. ;) From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Oct 16 07:57:56 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: pdp8/f (now Amiga poster) In-Reply-To: <9910152314.ZM12739@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991016075756.00fd52d0@vpwisfirewall> At 10:14 PM 10/15/99 GMT, Pete Turnbull wrote: >On Oct 15, 18:41, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> One thing I've learnt from this thread is that there are people here who >> I do not intend to make deals with -- ever. Their standard of behaviour >> and mine are just too different. If I find something you want someday, Tony, I won't hold this statement against you. :-) >Before anyone gets too much more upset by this discussion, perhaps I should >mention that John just told me that if I really wanted the book, he thought >it had once been available on the web. That reminded me of something I >checked out a year or two ago. The curious might investigate > https://toolbox.sgi.com/toolbox/hardware/hwHandbook/ >but don't expect vast amounts of serious technical info. Yes, it apparently is available there after you register for the free "developer online" level of SGI developer-ness. As for its depth or lack thereof - hey, that's part of the reason it didn't occur to me that it was valuable. The second manual on eBay is now at $78. - John From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Oct 16 09:03:41 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: How to reach more classic computer users? Message-ID: <991016100341.2360039b@trailing-edge.com> While trying to figure out how to reach more PDP-11 users with my freeware archives (immodest plug: See http://www.trailing-edge.com/www/freeware.html for information about the PDP-11 freeware CD's and FTP sites with PDP-11 freeware) it occured to me that I've only been using two methods of announcing availability: this (Classiccmp) mailing list and Usenet newsgroups specific to PDP-11's. It's obvious that these methods of reaching classic computer users hit only a small fraction of active PDP-11 users. There's what, maybe a couple of dozen frequent participants in this mailing list, and the number of regular posters on vmsnet.pdp-11 can be counted on two hands. Is there a better way of reaching a wider audience of classic computer users? In particular, folks who don't read technical Usenet discussion groups and who haven't happened upon this specific mailing list. Or, even in this "connected" world that we live in, is there no better way of reaching what I know is a very broad base of classic computer users out there? One idea that has crossed my mind, but I don't know if there's any way to pull it off: There are obviously lots of "collectors" on E-bay who have little connection with our reality of using classic computers. Is there no way at all of reaching these folks? I don't mean preaching to them, but at least tying them together into a broader knowledge base than the wheeling and dealing on E-bay. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Oct 16 09:34:45 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: How to reach more classic computer users? In-Reply-To: <991016100341.2360039b@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: >it occured to me that I've only been using two methods of announcing >availability: this (Classiccmp) mailing list and Usenet newsgroups >specific to PDP-11's. >One idea that has crossed my mind, but I don't know if there's any way >to pull it off: There are obviously lots of "collectors" on E-bay who have Between newsgroups and this list you have informed a number of people who tend to blab, so lots more get key information. Ebay is simple, put some up for auction. Its an AD. From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Sat Oct 16 09:46:46 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: How to reach more classic computer users? In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Oct 16, 1999 07:34:45 AM Message-ID: <199910161446.HAA10672@fraser.sfu.ca> Well I see that just about every computer-related section on eBay has an entry for "Computer mini-vacuum only $14.99". I guess that if you have the time to develop a script that reposts your item (read "advertisement") to dozens of sections every week, for supposed auction, then eBay doesn't mind. Personally I find this sort of ad irritating. One could do this to advertise classic computer web pages or mailing lists but it wouldn't make a very good impression. Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Oct 16 09:58:20 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: How to reach more classic computer users? Message-ID: <991016105820.2360039b@trailing-edge.com> >Well I see that just about every computer-related section on eBay has an >entry for "Computer mini-vacuum only $14.99". I guess that if you have the >time to develop a script that reposts your item (read "advertisement") to >dozens of sections every week, for supposed auction, then eBay doesn't >mind. Personally I find this sort of ad irritating. I find it very tacky, too! Besides, E-bay frowns on any links which refer to anything they may possibly view as a competitor, and I'm already teamed up with Amazon.com myself. (Besides, some folks here already view my teaming with Amazon.com as if I had signed a pact with the devil, but that's another story.) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From emu at ecubics.com Sat Oct 16 09:57:56 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: VaxStation Questions References: Message-ID: <00bb01bf17e7$b313d990$5d01a8c0@ecubuero> ----- Original Message ----- From: Zane H. Healy To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Friday, October 15, 1999 9:54 PM Subject: Re: VaxStation Questions > In the case of your VAXstation 3100 M48, it will require a large monitor > that you most likely will not be able to use on any of your other systems. > Just something to consider. Sorry, completely disagree. Get a better multisync, (with BNC connectors, sync on green, ...) and you could use it on most systems you can find. It really pays off. cheers, emanuel From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Oct 16 10:06:49 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: How to reach more classic computer users? Message-ID: <991016110649.2360039b@trailing-edge.com> >>One idea that has crossed my mind, but I don't know if there's any way >>to pull it off: There are obviously lots of "collectors" on E-bay who have >Between newsgroups and this list you have informed a number of people who >tend to blab, so lots more get key information. True, but for every well-connected classic computer user (and I rank all subscribers to classiccmp as "well-connected"!) I'm willing to bet there are 1000 others who don't have a clue as to what free resources there are on the web for their old platform, be it a PDP-11 or a CP/M machine or a IBM 1401 :-). >Ebay is simple, put some up for auction. Its an AD. I'm more concerned with hooking up users with all the free software archives that are already out there, than with selling any particular item. Even many of our "collector" pages, where folks put up pictures of their favorite old computers, often do a very poor job of connecting random readers to useful resources. Am I completely misguided in wanting to reach more people - in particular, folks we haven't already reached - so that they can more effectively use their classic computers? Many of our efforts on this list are confined to the small circle of those who are already "in the know". -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sat Oct 16 10:18:40 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: Clint Wolf, Please Contact Me Message-ID: <19991016.101842.250.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Pardon the noise, but I need to contact . . . . Clint-- I need you to contact me via private e-mail. The last address I got bounces. Thanks! Jeff We now return you to our normally scheduled programme . .. ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sat Oct 16 11:22:48 1999 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: How to reach more classic computer users? In-Reply-To: <991016110649.2360039b@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: Speaking for myself only, of course... I generally identify the source of my major obstacles in the classic computer enthusiast world as being my age. I enjoy reading the harrowing tales of field service techs here (in fact I've archived them...), the little anecdotes from people involved in os/system design on the PDP's, etc. But it's hard for me to fully relate, since my first "real" computer was an Atari, and I was 11 years old. To be honest, the "old salty" group that has been the friendliest and most willing to share their wealth of knowledge has been the HP3000 crowd...which is nice because information on the classic 3K systems is almost *nonexistant* on the web. Which brings me on to the subject at hand. I'm sure there are others like me, who have almost no word-of-mouth contact with systems. I'm pretty much on my own, relying on the few books I can afford (@%#! speculators...) and the willingness of the experienced members of online groups, like this list, to put up with my inexperience and my ignorant questions to help out where I'd otherwise not know where to start. Here's how I find anything for classic computers: ------------------------------------------------ Look on 5 or 6 different search engines. Search Dejanews. Post questions to this list and/or appropriate mailing lists/newsgroups. Look on eBay/Haggle/etc for possible books. Besides the web, mailing lists and newsgroups, events like the VCF are great. And perhaps people on this list who frequent swapmeets which are frequented by other classic computer enthusiasts would be willing to have a little stack of flyers sitting on a corner of their table. I keep every scrap of info that passes over my gills archived and indexed, since I view whatever I manage to extract as invaluable, and I constantly surprise people I meet who are using classic systems by telling them that there is free software/os/pc utilities/etc available on the internet for their systems. Early morning rambling, still jittery after my bookshelves fell down from the earthquake last night... Aaron From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Oct 16 11:52:01 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: How to reach more classic computer users? In-Reply-To: <991016105820.2360039b@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991016095201.00949580@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 10:58 16-10-1999 -0400, you wrote: >I find it very tacky, too! Besides, E-bay frowns on any links >which refer to anything they may possibly view as a competitor, and >I'm already teamed up with Amazon.com myself. (Besides, some folks >here already view my teaming with Amazon.com as if I had signed a pact >with the devil, but that's another story.) Hey! I never said THAT! ;-) Plagiarism alert! PLAGIARISM!! 35 lashes with a well-steamed feather duster for you! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sat Oct 16 12:07:08 1999 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: pdp8/f (now Amiga poster) In-Reply-To: <01be01bf16be$705550e0$1ee893c3@proteus> Message-ID: Poor John... I was to be the recipient of one of those manuals, gratis. But $163 was a little over my budget (cough). As someone who really enjoys SGI hardware (and looks forward to it becoming "obsolete - ), I was heartbroken to have it go on eBay. But they were John's books, and bully for him that he got $163. I just tell myself that he needed the $163 more than I needed that book and everything's ok. I'd feel bad if he'd given it to me and I later found out he could have sold it for that much... Personally, I try to make sure that old/rare stuff ends up with someone who is the previously discussed "enthusiast" type. Example: John Lawson gave me a nifty SparcServer 600MP board a while back that he had no interest in. I had a real interest in it, but no suitable VME chassis (I didn't want to stress the 4/110) and I posted a tentative "available" on a Sun newsgroup. I was shocked! Someone offered me $300 for it! I checked the email address, went to the website...price-gouging reseller. Ugh. So I gave it to a guy who had a full server chassis *shrink-wrapped* on the pallet in his garage... Ah well, Aaron On Fri, 15 Oct 1999, Peter Pachla wrote: > Hi Tony, > > > Are you saying that you offered something for free here (or for the cost > > of shipping, or whatever), somebody told you it was worth real money on > > e-bay, so you decided to sell it there? > > > > If so, then I regard this as _very_ unethical behaviour, and not at all > > what I'd expect from a classic computer enthusiast. > > > > My policy is simple. If I offer something for sale, and set a price, then > > that's the price I would accept for it.... > > Sorry for quoting so much of the message. > > I have to say that I agree with everything you said, to my mind it's a simple > case of good manners. Once you've made a deal with someone you simply don't > back out just because you got a better offer etc - it's just NOT done! :-( > > > TTFN - Pete. > > -- > Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. > Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) > > peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | > peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | > peter.pachla@virgin.net | > peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk > -- > > > From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Oct 16 12:08:41 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: How to reach more classic computer users? Message-ID: <991016130841.2360039b@trailing-edge.com> You made some good suggestions, and what I write below may look as if I'm criticizing your techniques. I'm not critcizing your techniques - they're about as good as they come! - but I am criticizing how various phenomena on the web put people off of finding appropriate resources. >Here's how I find anything for classic computers: >------------------------------------------------ >Look on 5 or 6 different search engines. Unfortunately, many of the best classic archives have "dropped off" the responses of most search engines. For instance, at one point in time all of the DECUS indices I maintain at http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/decus/ were tracked by Altavista and other major search engines. In the past six months, though, they've all dropped off. Why? I think it has to do with the trend for search engine designers to think that "if it's old, it's not relevant", and in the web-world 6-months old is *old*. Anyone seen the HotBot ads? If your web page is a few months old, they rank you with the geezers! With the increasing trend toward more glitzy web sites, I'm afraid that an archive 20 or 30-year old text, source code, and assembler source is going to get even fewer hits by many modern search engines. >Search Dejanews. This, actually, is pretty good, if you find the right responses. Many Usenet responses, though, are of the form "see the FAQ" or "see the archive", and a newbie won't know how to find what the respondent is talking about. (This applies to this mailing list here, too, BTW. There's a common reliance on internal resources instead of pointing folks toward resources maintained by folks off-list.) >Post questions to this list and/or appropriate mailing lists/newsgroups. Sure, this works quite well if you're already "in the know" enough to know where to ask. I'm mainly concerned about folks who don't know where to start. >Look on eBay/Haggle/etc for possible books. What I would really, really like to see is for places like eBay or Amazon or Haggle maintain references to items they don't offer for sale. Of course, there's zero commercial incentive for them to do so. >Besides the web, mailing lists and newsgroups, events like the VCF are >great. Again, a wonderful resource for those already in the know! Though if we're lucky some of the media coverage of the VCF events will actually contain useful links to this mailing list and other resources. >And perhaps people on this list who frequent swapmeets which are >frequented by other classic computer enthusiasts would be willing to have >a little stack of flyers sitting on a corner of their table. This is a *very* excellent suggestion! Maybe I can help make it happen. I can put together a glitzy postscript file (hey, I'm getting pretty good at page layout in writing postscript by hand these days) with good PDP-11/DEC resources listed on it. Again, I'm putting my emphasis not necessarily on collectors, but on people who continue to use classic computers. I, myself, am not particularly impressed by websites that are just pictures of someone's computer collection and talk about these machines as relics from the past or museum items. But I *am* impressed by folks who continue to actively develop for older platforms, and want to let the wider world know what's available today. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Oct 16 13:32:17 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: How to reach more classic computer users? In-Reply-To: References: <991016110649.2360039b@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991016133217.3d87c34a@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 09:22 AM 10/16/99 -0700, Aaron wrote: >Speaking for myself only, of course... > >Here's how I find anything for classic computers: >------------------------------------------------ >Look on 5 or 6 different search engines. > >Search Dejanews. > >Post questions to this list and/or appropriate mailing lists/newsgroups. > >Look on eBay/Haggle/etc for possible books. I meet a lot of HP users while carrying a HP 85 around at a hamfest. A couple of them gave me their old HP stuff. They were glad to see that someone would take it and use it. BTW there's a big hamfest in Jacksonville, Fla on the 30th of this month. They are supposed to be having tailgating for the first time ever. It should be a good place to find old stuff. Joe From jpl15 at netcom.com Sat Oct 16 12:24:57 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: How to reach more classic computer users? In-Reply-To: <991016130841.2360039b@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: John puts on ancient marketing hat after dusting it off and noticing that it doesn't *fit* like it did back in the 80's.... Have you considered trying to set up an informal deal with Mentec? A little co-op vendor/reseller thing? Or even seeing if they might be willing to give you a peek at a customer list? It seems most of us on this List try our best to further Mentec's interests and support.. I certainly do... maybe this might be something that would tend to interest them in a Hobbyist License ala SCO/Unix, etc. Then there is the venerable Thomas guide. You certainly know the genre of companies who still might have vintage DEC gear in daily use: industrial analysis labs, xray/CAT-scan facilities, CNC machining places, commercial graphics firms, and probably a dozen more categories that you can think of [that I can't :)] 'cause you do this for a living. On the swap-meet idea... I would be pleased to offer info on the CD at my tables... send 'em along. Address e-mailed privately upon request. Cheers John From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Oct 16 12:28:40 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: How to reach more classic computer users? In-Reply-To: <991016100341.2360039b@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: >It's obvious that these methods of reaching classic computer >users hit only a small fraction of active PDP-11 users. >There's what, maybe a couple of dozen frequent participants in this >mailing list, and the number of regular posters on vmsnet.pdp-11 can >be counted on two hands. Is there anyway to get the word out via DECUS? Though I doubt many us that are PDP-11 users are DECUS members, unless they're also OpenVMS users. The problem here being that if you're both I see it as being a good chance you're already having seen the announcement on either the newsgroups, or CLASSICCMP. >Is there a better way of reaching a wider audience of classic computer >users? In particular, folks who don't read technical Usenet discussion >groups and who haven't happened upon this specific mailing list. > >Or, even in this "connected" world that we live in, is there no better >way of reaching what I know is a very broad base of classic computer >users out there? The problem I see here is that a lot of these people are likely to be maintainers with fairly static systems. Their systems do what they want, and they don't have any compelling reason to change. As such they're not activelly looking for information. Probably the best way to reach these people would be word of mouth. >One idea that has crossed my mind, but I don't know if there's any way >to pull it off: There are obviously lots of "collectors" on E-bay who have >little connection with our reality of using classic computers. Is there >no way at all of reaching these folks? I don't mean preaching to them, >but at least tying them together into a broader knowledge base than the >wheeling and dealing on E-bay. Well, as has been mentioned as a rather 'tacky' way to do it, put one/some up on eBay, and include a link to the web page you've got on the CD-R's. Then have a link on that page to other PDP-11 resources, make sure these are all non-commercial resources though. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 16 12:32:20 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: Urgent Current Loop Question - ASR 33 / PT08 In-Reply-To: <002001bf1790$0c6f1840$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> from "daniel" at Oct 16, 99 00:36:42 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3715 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991016/30fbc4b2/attachment.ksh From emu at ecubics.com Sat Oct 16 13:35:49 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: pdp-11/03 switches References: <991016105820.2360039b@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <01b901bf1805$4702eb60$5d01a8c0@ecubuero> Hi all, found a 11/03 yesterday ;-) But there are 3 switches on the front panel, two of these are broken. Anybody knows, where to find replacement for them ? cheers & thanks, emanuel P.S. type of the switches seems to be "7121 C & K" From Jgzabol at aol.com Sat Oct 16 13:43:35 1999 From: Jgzabol at aol.com (Jgzabol@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: RL02s available Message-ID: <0.8f19bbc6.253a2157@aol.com> Now had I known that! I was acting upon the assumption that like most other drives the 60 Hz RL02s would not work without significant changeover on the German 50 Hz power. Thank you very much for that info, next time I will know better and secure the drives. John G. Zabolitzky <<< In fact, my "RL01/RL02 Disk Drive Maintenance Course" textbook says: The circuits controlling the drive motor in line are located on two modules. The drive logic module decodes the speed of the rotating spindle and sends the signals to the AC servo module which controls the drive motor's duty cycle. >>> From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sat Oct 16 14:24:26 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: DEC boards unearthed Message-ID: <19991016192426.16707.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> After several years of "emergency" storage, I am relocating a large pile of mostly DEC stuff from a friend's basement. I am finding stuff that I have been looking for and finding stuff I forgot I had. Today was diskpack and circuit-board day (rack day comes later ;-) The most striking thing I found was a lot of PDP-11 core memory. If anyone is looking for some, I'm willing to trade it for PDP-8 core, something I can put to better use. In addition to several PDP-11/20 4K stacks (H207), there are a couple of H214 stacks and one hex-height 16k set, G235, H217C and G114. I do have driver boards for the 4K stacks, but not all the backplanes (I rescued as much as I could of the contents of an 11/20 from the dumpster at work around 1988, but it just wasn't all in there). I might even still have the CPU box, but it is likely that I don't have a power supply. One of the other interesting items are a M7260/M7251 pair, one marked "datapath", one marked "11/05 control". These are clearly the CPU for an 11/05, but will they go into an 11/04 or short (not BA-11) 11/34 chassis for testing? Finally, we come to an RK11D board set... M7254 through M7257. What else is needed to make a working controller? A custom backplane? Paddle cards? I think I've got an RKV11 box attached to an 11/03 (I haven't pulled it out of the corner yet) If I'm missing too much of it, I can probably fix the RK11C that I got with my first RK05 drives. I've never used it and neither did the people I got it from (they wanted the drives for something else and already had the controller). I would like to back up the several dozen RK packs I moved today, too. I have several options for CPUs and OSes, but I need to identify which RK controllers are going to work before I can see about spinning off RK images. We took some pictures with my friend's digital camera. I'll post a URL when he gets them to me and I get them up on my page. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Oct 16 14:53:28 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: RL02s available Message-ID: <991016155328.2360039b@trailing-edge.com> >Now had I known that! I was acting upon the assumption that like most other >drives the 60 Hz RL02s would not work without significant changeover on the >German 50 Hz power. Thank you very much for that info, next time I will >know better and secure the drives. Gonna try to take a RL02 as carry-on luggage? :-). The above comment was only half-joking - I once took a full 10.5" high PDP-11/44 on an international flight. The power supply (the heavy part!) was removed and carried on, so that the main chassis (now just the steel frame and backplanes) weighed about 45 pounds and could fly without any checked-luggage-over-weight-allowance charges. I was lucky that day - they didn't weigh carry-ons (they often do in Europe now, and I think the limit is 5 or 7.5 kgs!) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Oct 16 14:56:47 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: DEC boards unearthed Message-ID: <991016155647.2360039b@trailing-edge.com> >After several years of "emergency" storage, I am relocating a large pile of >mostly DEC stuff from a friend's basement. I am finding stuff that I have >been looking for and finding stuff I forgot I had. Hey, I know what that feels like. Closest thing I can remember to Christmas morning as a little kid :-). >One of the other interesting items are a M7260/M7251 pair, one marked >"datapath", one marked "11/05 control". These are clearly the CPU for an >11/05, but will they go into an 11/04 or short (not BA-11) 11/34 chassis >for testing? If I'm not mistaken, the chassis will be OK, but you'll need an 11/05 backplane and front panel. >Finally, we come to an RK11D board set... M7254 through M7257. What else is >needed to make a working controller? A custom backplane? Yep, the backplane you want will have a sticker saying "RK11-D" on it. > Paddle cards? Standard Unibus cable connectors will do fine. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From jpl15 at netcom.com Sat Oct 16 15:08:48 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: FS: PDP 11/03, 23 73 (fwd) Message-ID: Up Heads: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 12:52:15 -0600 From: Charles Stoyer To: Info-PDP11@transarc.com Subject: FS: PDP 11/03, 23 73 I have 3 LSI-11's from the very late '70's, early '80's. Basic units have processor and RX02 drive. Accessories include 1 9-track tape drive (1600/800 bpi), RL02 10Mb disk drive (can't get removable disk out), A/D and clock boards. Some spares. Processors include 11/73, 11/23 and maybe 11/03. At last check I think everything was in working order. Also Tektronix 4006 and large Non-DEC wide printer/printing terminal (dot matrix). I can ship UPS ground if items are within limits. Items are in Golden, Colorado, USA (near Denver). No reasonable offer refused. E-mail cstoyer@support.interpex.com if interested. Charles -- Charles Stoyer Golden CO ---------- To unsubscribe (or subscribe) from (to) this list, send a message to info-pdp11-request@village.org, with the first line of the message body being "unsubscribe" or "subscribe", respectively (without the quotes). From cfandt at netsync.net Sat Oct 16 15:12:30 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: How to reach more classic computer users? In-Reply-To: <991016110649.2360039b@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991016154513.00a97370@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 11:06 AM 10/16/99 -0400, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com said something like: >>>One idea that has crossed my mind, but I don't know if there's any way >>>to pull it off: There are obviously lots of "collectors" on E-bay who have > >>Between newsgroups and this list you have informed a number of people who >>tend to blab, so lots more get key information. > >True, but for every well-connected classic computer user (and I rank >all subscribers to classiccmp as "well-connected"!) I'm willing >to bet there are 1000 others who don't have a clue as to what free resources >there are on the web for their old platform, be it a PDP-11 or a >CP/M machine or a IBM 1401 :-). I know myself that I've not found _all_ of the PDP-11 and uVAX resources. I've noticed some webpages, for example, never come up in any search engine because the owner hasn't indexed their page properly or at all. I can search till I'm blue in the face and miss stuff. Also, slogging through dozens and dozens of 'hits' that are HTML-based is not at all fun when you've got a limited time budget and only a 48k BPS connection (yeah, only a couple of years ago that was considered blinding _fast_!). Many important resources, which I'd think were searchable, I've found simply by other ClassicCmp list members mentioning them here. > >>Ebay is simple, put some up for auction. Its an AD. > >I'm more concerned with hooking up users with all the free software >archives that are already out there, than with selling any particular item. >Even many of our "collector" pages, where folks put up pictures of their >favorite old computers, often do a very poor job of connecting random readers >to useful resources. I've seen antique radio, computer collectors and ham radio pages that have a nice section dedicated to interesting links. By asking the relevant collector/enthusiast webpage owners to place a link to your http://www.trailing-edge.com/www/freeware.html page on their site will help toward your goal of "getting the word out". Maybe you can setup a page of interesting links as an exchange with those folks who link to your freeware page. Sellam's VCF pages seem to be one of the magnets a search engine nails (amongst several other's pages from ClassicCmp) and would be one of the important sites to link to your freeware. > >Am I completely misguided in wanting to reach more people - in particular, >folks we haven't already reached - so that they can more effectively use Misguided? Certainly not! Many of us want to freely share our knowledge with folks who want to learn about similar systems. Whenever I am able to I am very enthusiastic about sharing info. It's just I'm not that organized at present to comprehensively share my archives :( >their classic computers? Many of our efforts on this list >are confined to the small circle of those who are already "in the know". Indeed. And it seems those not "in the know" who are members of the list, plus outsiders who hear of us, do seek the knowledgeable folks on the list for advice. Links from collector's pages and heavy hits from search engines helps broaden the reach that you are seeking Tim. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From cfandt at netsync.net Sat Oct 16 15:16:05 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: Quake? was: Re: How to reach more classic computer users? In-Reply-To: References: <991016110649.2360039b@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991016161423.00ac93a0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 09:22 AM 10/16/99 -0700, Aaron Christopher Finney said something like: -- snip -- >Early morning rambling, still jittery after my bookshelves fell down from >the earthquake last night... > I heard of the quake thru another radio-related list. How's everybody doing? All okay I sincerely hope! Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Oct 16 15:27:38 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: How to reach more classic computer users? Message-ID: <991016162738.2360039b@trailing-edge.com> >I know myself that I've not found _all_ of the PDP-11 and uVAX resources. >I've noticed some webpages, for example, never come up in any search engine >because the owner hasn't indexed their page properly or at all. I can >search till I'm blue in the face and miss stuff. Absolutely true. I already complained about the freeware archives that I maintain dropping out of several prominent search engines where they used to be prominently mentioned. The pages (and pages referring to these pages) have been submitted to the search engines many times since they disappeared, but have never come back. Here's where I'm sure someone can help me. If anyone could look at, for example, my DECUS freeware index at http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/decus/ and particularly suggest which META tags I might have to add again to make this page (and the pages that it refers to) show up in search engines, I'd greatly appreciate it! Back when these pages were indexed by search engines, they'd get hundreds of search hits a day. But now they never ever turn up, and I don't know why. I mean, the pages still have the same information they always did, and it's not like anyone else has a similar index on the web that replaces this one. Maybe I'm oversimplifying things, but it seemed to me that a couple of years ago the search engines did a very good job of finding a page based on content. For example, if I knew a key phrase that occured somewhere on a page, I could do an Altavista search for that phrase (in quotes) and get a hit every single time. This doesn't seem to work the same way anymore. Is it because search engines no longer index based on content? If they aren't based on content, then what the heck are they based on? And I've also been warned that adding too many META tags will actually cause some search engines to reject a page (or even an entire site) for indexing, as they don't want folks essentially using search engines as a form of Spam. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From foxvideo at wincom.net Sat Oct 16 15:30:33 1999 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: Quake? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991016161423.00ac93a0@206.231.8.2> References: <991016110649.2360039b@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991016163033.007a53a0@mail.wincom.net> At 04:16 PM 10/16/1999 -0400, you wrote: >Upon the date 09:22 AM 10/16/99 -0700, Aaron Christopher Finney said >something like: > -- snip -- > >>Early morning rambling, still jittery after my bookshelves fell down from >>the earthquake last night... >> > >I heard of the quake thru another radio-related list. How's everybody doing? > >All okay I sincerely hope! > >Regards, Chris >-- -- > I think our California members should store their more precious old computers on the east side of the fault line in case the rest of California should someday slide off into the Pacific. Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Oct 16 15:47:23 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: DEC boards unearthed In-Reply-To: <19991016192426.16707.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> (message from Ethan Dicks on Sat, 16 Oct 1999 12:24:26 -0700 (PDT)) References: <19991016192426.16707.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <19991016204723.16253.qmail@brouhaha.com> Ethan wrote: > One of the other interesting items are a M7260/M7251 pair, one marked > "datapath", one marked "11/05 control". These are clearly the CPU for an > 11/05, but will they go into an 11/04 or short (not BA-11) 11/34 chassis > for testing? No. You need to have the right backplane wiring between the two boards. From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Oct 16 16:03:44 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: Quake? Message-ID: <199910162103.RAA19128@world.std.com> < I think our California members should store their more precious old Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991016141231.00a824e0@mcmanis.com> At 05:03 PM 10/16/99 -0400, you wrote: >< I think our California members should store their more precious old > >Or is that the west side case it becomes an island? ;) Yup when the "big one" hits and the San Joaquin (sp?) valley refills to extend the San Franciso bay into central California. Then truely everyone in california will live "in the bay area." :-) So where was this quake for us less informed types? --Chuck From emu at ecubics.com Sat Oct 16 16:30:51 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: How to reach more classic computer users? References: <991016162738.2360039b@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <020801bf181d$ba2490e0$5d01a8c0@ecubuero> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Saturday, October 16, 1999 2:27 PM Subject: Re: How to reach more classic computer users? > Here's where I'm sure someone can help me. If anyone could look at, > for example, my DECUS freeware index at > > http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/decus/ > > and particularly suggest which META tags I might have to add again to > make this page (and the pages that it refers to) show up in search > engines, I'd greatly appreciate it! Back when these pages were > indexed by search engines, they'd get hundreds of search hits a day. > But now they never ever turn up, and I don't know why. I mean, the > pages still have the same information they always did, and it's not > like anyone else has a similar index on the web that replaces this > one. Probably, you have to change some of the content of the HTML files, or just change the creation/update attributes ? Or put some keywords like "VERY VERY NEW OLD STUFF" ;-) > Maybe I'm oversimplifying things, but it seemed to me that a couple of > years ago the search engines did a very good job of finding a page > based on content. For example, if I knew a key phrase that occured > somewhere on a page, I could do an Altavista search for that phrase > (in quotes) and get a hit every single time. This doesn't seem to > work the same way anymore. Is it because search engines no longer > index based on content? If they aren't based on content, then what > the heck are they based on? I noticed that too. I tried the same with known pages :-( Cheers, emanuel From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Oct 16 16:29:21 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:55 2005 Subject: Quake? Message-ID: <991016172921.236003e2@trailing-edge.com> >So where was this quake for us less informed types? > >--Chuck A 7.0 about 30 miles N of Joshua Tree (that is, about 90 miles ENE of downtown LA). See http://www.scec.org/ for more details. According to the folks I know east of LA, the quake felt *much* bigger than the '92 Landers Earthquake which was a 7.3 (and I personally rode out, along with the Northridge quake a few years later.) Lots of stuff thrown off tables and shelves. Supposedly one of the I-40 bridges in Barstow is pretty badly damaged, but still standing. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sat Oct 16 17:26:12 1999 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: Quake? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991016163033.007a53a0@mail.wincom.net> Message-ID: You'll know it's us...we'll be the ones using Cray I seatcushions as floatation devices... On Sat, 16 Oct 1999, Charles E. Fox wrote: > At 04:16 PM 10/16/1999 -0400, you wrote: > >Upon the date 09:22 AM 10/16/99 -0700, Aaron Christopher Finney said > >something like: > > -- snip -- > > > >>Early morning rambling, still jittery after my bookshelves fell down from > >>the earthquake last night... > >> > > > >I heard of the quake thru another radio-related list. How's everybody > doing? > > > >All okay I sincerely hope! > > > >Regards, Chris > >-- -- > > > I think our California members should store their more precious old > computers on the east side of the fault line in case the rest of California > should someday slide off into the Pacific. > > Regards > > Charlie Fox > > > Charles E. Fox > Chas E. Fox Video Productions > 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada > email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo > > From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sat Oct 16 17:33:01 1999 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: Quake? In-Reply-To: <991016172921.236003e2@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: I'm around 30 north-east of LA, and it was enough to make us jump up around 3am. Genius that I am, I put up the slat-plank kind of adjustable shelves in my office...which didn't fare too well. Everthing else was either too heavy, bolted down, or on the floor. Nothing damaged except for our nerves and a broken mirror. The best one since I've been out here was the Whittier quake in '87. I was sitting in my first period class (grade 9) and all of the flourescents came down at the same time that the big wall of windows on the south side of the class imploded. Absolute, beautiful chaos ensued... Aaron On Sat, 16 Oct 1999 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >So where was this quake for us less informed types? > > > >--Chuck > > A 7.0 about 30 miles N of Joshua Tree (that is, about 90 miles > ENE of downtown LA). See > > http://www.scec.org/ > > for more details. > > According to the folks I know east of LA, the quake felt *much* bigger than the > '92 Landers Earthquake which was a 7.3 (and I personally rode out, > along with the Northridge quake a few years later.) Lots of stuff > thrown off tables and shelves. > > Supposedly one of the I-40 bridges in Barstow is pretty badly damaged, > but still standing. > > -- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > > From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sat Oct 16 17:47:40 1999 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: How to reach more classic computer users? In-Reply-To: <991016162738.2360039b@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Oct 1999 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > and particularly suggest which META tags I might have to add again to > make this page (and the pages that it refers to) show up in search > engines, I'd greatly appreciate it! Back when these pages were > indexed by search engines, they'd get hundreds of search hits a day. > But now they never ever turn up, and I don't know why. I mean, the > pages still have the same information they always did, and it's not > like anyone else has a similar index on the web that replaces this > one. The usual ones are like this: From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 16 17:32:35 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: DEC boards unearthed In-Reply-To: <19991016192426.16707.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 16, 99 12:24:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1523 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991016/755174db/attachment.ksh From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 16 19:14:18 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: Quake? In-Reply-To: <199910162103.RAA19128@world.std.com> Message-ID: > < I think our California members should store their more precious old > Or is that the west side case it becomes an island? ;) My understanding of the tectonic plate movement is that everything east of the Hayward/Roger's Creek fault will slide into the Atlantic. From cfandt at netsync.net Sat Oct 16 19:27:26 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: Digging old stuff out Was: RE: DEC boards unearthed In-Reply-To: <991016155647.2360039b@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991016201951.00ac8170@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 03:56 PM 10/16/99 -0400, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com said something like: >>After several years of "emergency" storage, I am relocating a large pile of >>mostly DEC stuff from a friend's basement. I am finding stuff that I have >>been looking for and finding stuff I forgot I had. > >Hey, I know what that feels like. Closest thing I can remember to >Christmas morning as a little kid :-). Me too on that Tim! I've just been sorting through some boxes of (mostly) old radio parts, general electronic parts, WWII military radios and parts that I'd had stashed in a far corner of my old house I recently sold. Moved into it in Summer 1977 and several of those boxes were put there and stayed until 4 or 5 months ago and brought over here to the new abode. Yep, just like Christmas in finding a bunch of NOS 60's vintage transistors, NOS SCR 274 mil radios and parts, and a couple of 60's vintage Bouroughs vacuum tube logic modules which _may_ be from a computer. Gotta research them sometime. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From jhfine at idirect.com Sat Oct 16 20:10:07 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: Help with PDP-11/04 Front Panel Message-ID: <380921EF.D4028F91@idirect.com> I am supposed to go a look at a very old PDP-11/04 this week and would appreciate some help as to how the front panel is set up. Mainly, I want to be able to look at the program that was loaded using hardware ODT, that is just examine the program and confirm that it is the same as a listing that I will have on a laptop which I will bring along. I don't have to verify all 20 KBytes of the program, just look at it ever 1000 octal bytes to verify that it is the same at about 20 locations. I doubt if this information makes any difference, but I have been told it operates with paper tape, has core memory and an ASR-33 as the console device. Also, the program is stand alone (obviously since it has no disk drives). Mainly, I just want to press the HALT switch or button. Then I want to look at memory via hardware ODT, then restart the system without changing anything at all. Is this possible? I know how to do it on an 11/73. And I used to be able to do in on an 11/34. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From cfandt at netsync.net Sat Oct 16 20:43:22 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: Quake? In-Reply-To: References: <199910162103.RAA19128@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991016214126.00ab2910@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 05:14 PM 10/16/99 -0700, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) said something like: >> Or is that the west side case it becomes an island? ;) > >My understanding of the tectonic plate movement is that everything east of >the Hayward/Roger's Creek fault will slide into the Atlantic. Oh thanks Fred :-/ Now I'll have to go out and buy flood insurance :( --Chris (in Western NY State) -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sat Oct 16 21:11:53 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: WWII radio reciever Message-ID: <199910170211.VAA17395@thufir.cs.umn.edu> Anyone want a WWII navy radio reciever? 70 pounds of iron, tubes, and vernier tuning. Shortwave bands. I'm not shipping it, and i'm getting real serious about tossing it out. SO, you need to be in Minneapolis, or coming by this area reasonably soon. Don't expect it to work, of course. -Lawrence LeMay From dann at greycat.com Sat Oct 16 21:50:35 1999 From: dann at greycat.com (Dann Lunsford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: Quake? References: Message-ID: <3809397B.FC2FE371@greycat.com> "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > > < I think our California members should store their more precious old > > > > Or is that the west side case it becomes an island? ;) > > My understanding of the tectonic plate movement is that everything east of > the Hayward/Roger's Creek fault will slide into the Atlantic. To inject a note of fact into this rather amusing speculation, the "San Andreas/ Hayward/Roger's Creek/whatever" fault system is transverse, not strike/slip. This means that the general motions of the plates colliding is north/south, not up/down. What these quakes are doing is moving Southern California and Northern California closer together. I've heard it said that The Big One will *not* cause anything to sink into the ocean; instead L.A. and S.F. will get about 30 feet closer to each other...in a tenth of a second. You may apply your own imaginations to that; I prefer not to. *shuddder* Dann Lunsford From cfandt at netsync.net Sat Oct 16 22:17:26 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: WWII radio reciever In-Reply-To: <199910170211.VAA17395@thufir.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <4.1.19991016231035.00ac34c0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 09:11 PM 10/16/99 -0500, Lawrence LeMay said something like: >Anyone want a WWII navy radio reciever? 70 pounds of iron, tubes, and >vernier tuning. Shortwave bands. > >I'm not shipping it, and i'm getting real serious about tossing it out. >SO, you need to be in Minneapolis, or coming by this area reasonably soon. Larry, give us more info. What is the type designation found on the metal ID tag? Any other info you can give to help ID this unit? I cannot come to get it and if none of the several other ClassicCmp members can come I will post it on several other email lists related to "boatanchors". Like some of the big, heavy old computers many of us are very interested in, there's a bunch of us that like big, heavy old radios and like thosse computers, we don't like to see a radio tossed into the rubbish. BTW: the term 'boatanchor' is a very affectionate term given by us old radio enthusiasts and radio amateurs to a rig that is very heavy and has vacuum tubes. Maybe an IBM 704 can be called a 'boatanchor' :) :) Let me know. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From donm at cts.com Sat Oct 16 23:31:08 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: Quake? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Oct 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > < I think our California members should store their more precious old > > > > Or is that the west side case it becomes an island? ;) > > My understanding of the tectonic plate movement is that everything east of > the Hayward/Roger's Creek fault will slide into the Atlantic. I think that means that only the strip twixt the San Andreas and Hayward/Roger's Creek faults are safe :) - don From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sat Oct 16 23:47:40 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: WWII Radio, more information In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991016231035.00ac34c0@206.231.8.2> from Christian Fandt at "Oct 16, 1999 11:17:26 pm" Message-ID: <199910170447.XAA17501@thufir.cs.umn.edu> > Upon the date 09:11 PM 10/16/99 -0500, Lawrence LeMay said something like: > >Anyone want a WWII navy radio reciever? 70 pounds of iron, tubes, and > >vernier tuning. Shortwave bands. > > > >I'm not shipping it, and i'm getting real serious about tossing it out. > >SO, you need to be in Minneapolis, or coming by this area reasonably soon. Ok, first off it looks like Michael Grigoni wants it, so unless this thing is the Holy Grail of WWII memoriabilia, I assume I'll be giving it to him. > Larry, give us more info. What is the type designation found on the metal > ID tag? Any other info you can give to help ID this unit? I just took 4 photos of the unit. These are at the max resolution and minimal jpeg compression mode of the camera, so the files are big. This unit has never been cleaned by me, and there is a lot of dust on the control knobs. You can see its certainly not in great condition, but then, its almost 60 years old. I forget what I paid for it at a university auction over 10 years ago... Missing one control knob, on the Phasing control. You will have to get a replacement, or figure out how to fire the phasers manually. Wells Gardner & CO some of the information from the top of the unit: model rao-2 navy bureau of ships contractor National Company, Inc Malden, Mass contract number contract date NXs 4681 April 30,1942 Type CNA-46187 74 pounds serial 1329 accepted by navy placed in service 6-25-43 ? -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sat Oct 16 23:53:22 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: WWII Radio, more information In-Reply-To: <199910170447.XAA17501@thufir.cs.umn.edu> from Lawrence LeMay at "Oct 16, 1999 11:47:40 pm" Message-ID: <199910170453.XAA17512@thufir.cs.umn.edu> And of course i forgot to mention where the images were located: www.cs.umn.edu/~lemay/radio remember, these images are big. -Lawrence LeMay From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sun Oct 17 01:46:32 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: DEC boards unearthed Message-ID: <19991017064632.17046.rocketmail@ web605.yahoomail.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > One of the other interesting items are a M7260/M7251 pair... For the record, the above number is a typo... it should be M7260/M7261 pair. > You need the 11/05 (or 11/10 -- they're the same) backplane and > frontpanel for these. I might have a 5.25" 11/05 box at the back of the pile. I probably pulled the cards to keep them in a better environment. > > Finally, we come to an RK11D board set... > > IIRC 3 of the 4 cards in that box are the same as the ones for the > RK11-D. The bus control is different (I think). Makes sense. > Oh, RK11-Cs are fun to fix (for suitable values of 'fun'). I learnt about > hard disk controllers, Unibus DMA cycles, etc while tracking down a dead > chip in mine. I have an ace up my sleeve - I can test basic M-series modules out of circuit with a chip tester and a harness I built from a test clip and some ribbon cable. I can clamp the test clip on each chip in turn for cards like the M216 or M111 etc. Takes second. I did build a FLIP-CHIP tester for the VIC-20 (the bare boards were available at RatShack), but I never wrote the software. I wanted to make a table-driven thing with graphical display of what faulty chips were found, but I never wrote a meta-language to decribe each signal, in and out, to be able to succinctly list off enough info to test a few dozen types of boards. > Having the printset is _essential_, though! Almost always the case. > I have prints for the RK11-C and RK11-D, and the PDP11/05. I don't think > I have the RKV11-D set anywhere, but it can't be that hard to figure out. Are these available scanned anywhere? Are you looking for any docs that we might be able to swap bits on? I don't relish paying to ship slices of dead trees across the pond. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From Jgzabol at aol.com Sun Oct 17 06:52:31 1999 From: Jgzabol at aol.com (Jgzabol@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: RL02s available Message-ID: <0.93135431.253b127f@aol.com> In einer eMail vom 16.10.99 20:56:37 MEZ, schreiben Sie: << Gonna try to take a RL02 as carry-on luggage? :-). The above comment was only half-joking - I once took a full 10.5" high PDP-11/44 on an international flight. The power supply (the heavy part!) was removed and carried on, so that the main chassis (now just the steel frame and backplanes) weighed about 45 pounds and could fly without any checked-luggage-over-weight-allowance charges. I was lucky that day - they didn't weigh carry-ons (they often do in Europe now, and I think the limit is 5 or 7.5 kgs!) >> I fly a lot, and my hand luggage _NEVER_ has been weighted. However, I would not try to do that anyway (too lazy for lifting large weights when travelling), but there are many very good freight services in the US, a simple reference to the yellow pages will always allow me to take care of shipping within less than a day. It is simply so very much easier to find things in the US than in Europe, that shipping costs are outweighted by that. If you get together something on the order of at least 500 kg (a pallete full, say) I find that quite reasonable. John G. Zabolitzky From cfandt at netsync.net Sun Oct 17 08:02:15 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: WWII Radio, more information In-Reply-To: <199910170447.XAA17501@thufir.cs.umn.edu> References: <4.1.19991016231035.00ac34c0@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <4.1.19991017084413.00acfad0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 11:47 PM 10/16/99 -0500, Lawrence LeMay said something like: >> Upon the date 09:11 PM 10/16/99 -0500, Lawrence LeMay said something like: >> >Anyone want a WWII navy radio reciever? 70 pounds of iron, tubes, and >> >vernier tuning. Shortwave bands. >> > >> >I'm not shipping it, and i'm getting real serious about tossing it out. >> >SO, you need to be in Minneapolis, or coming by this area reasonably soon. > >Ok, first off it looks like Michael Grigoni wants it, so unless this thing >is the Holy Grail of WWII memoriabilia, I assume I'll be giving it to >him. Good! Go for it Mike. Hardly a Holy Grail but it's a good boatanchor example from WWII era. I have an RBL-3 which looks very similar but receives 15 KHz to 600 KHz (VLF, or Very Low Frequency). Yours is a military version of National's commercial NC-100XA and receives frequencies from 540 KHz to 30 MHz, basically a shortwave rec'vr. Wells-Garder built mine too from a design that the contractor, National, had made for the War effort. > >> Larry, give us more info. What is the type designation found on the metal >> ID tag? Any other info you can give to help ID this unit? > >I just took 4 photos of the unit. These are at the max resolution and minimal Kinda dark, but somewhat readable by me as I'd seen RAO's before. Thanks for the heads up although it's drastically off-topic and that Mike is able to save it from the trash barrel. Although it's rather seedy looking apparently from storage it should restore to a very nice set with a lot of TLC. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From daniel at internet.look.ca Sun Oct 17 08:18:16 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: DEC boards unearthed - I have some info Message-ID: <001701bf18a2$13463500$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, October 16, 1999 6:52 PM Subject: Re: DEC boards unearthed >> One of the other interesting items are a M7260/M7251 pair, one marked >> "datapath", one marked "11/05 control". These are clearly the CPU for an >> 11/05, but will they go into an 11/04 or short (not BA-11) 11/34 chassis >> for testing? > >You need the 11/05 (or 11/10 -- they're the same) backplane and >frontpanel for these. There was a 5.25" box versions and a 10.5" box >version with _different_ backplanes. They won't work in an 11/04 or 11/34 >backplane, though > > Actually the 11/05 and the 11/10 have two different backplanes (as I have both) and the cards are fitted differently in each one. Keep your H214 memory and G231/G110 core drivers.. The 11/05 uses that for it's own memory. The older 11/05 backplane did not use +15V either! Which CPU boards do you have. It's easy to tell. Does one of them have a rotary switch to set the baud rate? To get an 11/05 running you need: M7260 M7261 G231 X 2 G110 X 2 H214 X2 G727 (grant) You don't need a console serial board (M7800) as that was built into the CPU board. You can tell the year of the PDP 11/05 CPU set by: 74 - if the back of the boards are green (solder masked) 72/73 - if there is no baud selection switch 72 (beta) - hand stamped date before June 72, and a different layout of the M7261 (with loads of wires) I have restored many PDP 11/05s for "collectors" - yes, at $875 a pop! I have about 5-6 cpu sets, 1 is beta. >> >> Finally, we come to an RK11D board set... M7254 through M7257. What else is >> needed to make a working controller? A custom backplane? Paddle cards? I > >Again you need the right backplane. Apart from that, not a lot -- the >cabling is the standard BC11 Unibus cables (both for the Unibus and to >link up the RK05 drives). > >> think I've got an RKV11 box attached to an 11/03 (I haven't pulled it out of > >IIRC 3 of the 4 cards in that box are the same as the ones for the >RK11-D. The bus control is different (I think). > >> the corner yet) If I'm missing too much of it, I can probably fix the RK11C >> that I got with my first RK05 drives. I've never used it and neither did the > >Oh, RK11-Cs are fun to fix (for suitable values of 'fun'). I learnt about >hard disk controllers, Unibus DMA cycles, etc while tracking down a dead >chip in mine. Having the printset is _essential_, though! > >I have prints for the RK11-C and RK11-D, and the PDP11/05. I don't think >I have the RKV11-D set anywhere, but it can't be that hard to figure out. I have two sets of these and run 8 RK05s, again, restored many of these. You need a RK11-D backplane. You can hand wire one (yes I know many who have) for UNIBUS operation - PDP 11/05. The best backplane I have is from someone who completely modified a PDP 11/05 (16K backplane).He took out the second core memory set and completely hand wired the RK11-D on it. Yikes. It works and I still have the plane if you are interested in the wire list to do that. The PDP 11/05 needs AClow, DClow,5V, -15V. The newer ones required +15V. > >-tony > From daniel at internet.look.ca Sun Oct 17 08:26:50 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: Urgent Current Loop Question - ASR 33 / PT08 Message-ID: <002901bf18a3$45c46d20$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> That's it Tony, and yes... I'm serious. They connected the ASR-33 across an inverter and shorted it out when the relay transmits. The R107 is RTL (with a real transistor) so it can't damage it. I made the change and...... the PDP 8/s is now running DECUS tic tac toe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I got the docs finally on the PT08 and found a -3V reference supply was in the wrong slot... That would account for the problem I had initially. Otherwise the entire system is now happy. BTW: I also picked up the ASR 33 schematics and the "Teletype Service Manual - ASR 33" as well. Thanks for the help. john -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, October 16, 1999 2:33 PM Subject: Re: Urgent Current Loop Question - ASR 33 / PT08 >> >> Before I attempt to figure this one out I would like to know if anyone else >> can help me. > >I know the ASR33 pretty well, but I've never seen an 8/s. But maybe I can >help. I'm going to assume you have the sort of ASR33 that's normally used >with computers -- that's to say one with a current loop interface. >There's s 3 position knob on the front of the machine (line/off/local) >and no other controls on the 'call control unit' (electronics module). > >> >> I hooked up an ASR-33 (non DEC) to my PDP-8/s. I ran a maindec program and >> the PDP could talk to the teletype no problem, never an error. >> >> After spending 4 1/2 hours cleaning up bad solder joints on the receiver I >> got it up and running.... *kind of* >> >> The problem is this: The ASR-33 is interfaced to the PDP currently by tying >> one receive line to the input of a R107 (transistor inverter) and the other >> receiver line to the output of the same inverter. Then, the signal is >> *conditioned* (inverted) a few times before it is passed onto shift >> registers,,, etc.. > >Are you sure this is right. It sounds crazy to me (and now I'll get a >pile of replies pointing out how DEC were being clever here)... > >The ASR33 transmit loop is electrically a switch. Actually it's a complex >array of switches. but in the end, it either shorts the 2 Tx terminals or >opens them. There is no voltage on either terminal (in a 'stock ASR33') >from the ASR33 electronics. There are no other components involved. > >Connecting a switch between the input and output of an inverter is not >normally a good way to get a clean logic signal ;-) > >The normal circuit (used in all sorts of machines) is to connect one of >the tty Tx wires to one supply rail, possibly through a small resistor >to limit the current in the event of a short somewhere). The other tty Tx >wire to the other supply rail through a (larger) resistor. And then to >monitor the voltage at the 'top' of that resistor, say by connecting it >to the input of a logic gate. > >> >> If I hook up the teletype the WAY the circuit exists now I get a 0-1V data >> signal (notice positive) out of the first inverter which of course is >> totally incompatible with the others and the signal never passes through >> beyond the first inverter. >> >> If I disconnect the FIRST inverter from the second one and LEAVE the one >> receive line in the input of the first inverter ("floating") and hook up the >> SECOND receive line to the input of the now *disconnected* second inverter I >> get data. Most of the time good, but some bad characters get through. >> >> This is obviously not a working current loop solution. >> >> If the teletype is passive should I just connect the receive line on the >> input of the first inverter to ground or -3V??? > >Well, I could understand connecting the tty Tx loop between the input of >one inverter and the output of another one, especially if the input of >the latter was tied to a known logic level (so the output is just a >constant voltage source, etc). This makes an assumption about how >floating inputs behave, which may be OK on transistorised logic like this. > >You are _sure_ that you've connected to the right pins on the R107 >module, and that in fact that's the right module to be using? > >> #1) As I don't have docs nearby on the ASR-33 and have never had a VERY >> simple interface like this CAN I short the one receive line to ground or -3 >> volts???? > >Sure. Just make sure the TTY contacts don't have to carry high currents >(like don't connect the loop across the PSU) unless you like repairing >burnt/melted switches... > >> >> I just want to make sure the ASR 33 does not have any active part that will >> eat my PT08 for breakfast. > >Not that I know of... > >-tony > From daniel at internet.look.ca Sun Oct 17 08:45:13 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: PDP 11/05 and PDP 11/45 available. Message-ID: <000601bf18a5$d6eba0a0$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> I have two systems that I have finished restoring that I would consider for trade for either an older PDP 8 or some negibus peripherals. Both CPUs are running and very happy. The PDP 11/05 has 16K core memory (2X H214) and has a KW11-P (real time clock) in it.It runs well. I really like 11/05's!!! This unit comes with a copy of the engineering docs, as well as the 11/05 computer manual (theory). The PDP 11/45 (runs, yes... really). I restored this CPU back in '86. I am just moving the PDP 11/45 CPU and console serial port. It comes with one supply and boots RT-11V5 (so it has been well tested) . This CPU is FAST compared to a 34. You have to run your own BA11 memory box... I might be convinced to part with some MOS memory and backplane for the right deal. This PDP 11/45 was really a pain to restore as I had no documents on it and spent the better part of two days scoping the inital problems. I have seen engineering docs go on EBay so finding them is not a problem anymore. Cash is always welcome. If a deal can't be struck then I'll be dropping these beasts on EBay. I am trimming my collection so these two have to go. P.S. I picked up a Nova 2 yesterday with Diablo drives, 6 boxes of documentation, 5 big boxes of paper (RDOS, fortran, algol, basic, etc...), kennedy tape drive, graphics generator, and of course a "Ken-Net" box to network it to a PDP. I think I have every paper tape/document ever made for this system. PDP - 8/S - I picked up the rest of the documents on it including - PC0 tape unit, PT08, floating point, the original "Flip Chip modules manual - rev. 1 , '65" and "Flip Chip Modules Seminar" as put on by DEC in 1965. The system is running everything and is very happy. Reading about how the Flip Chips were made was absolutely amazing.... (many pictures). john From rkaplan at accsys-corp.com Sun Oct 17 09:47:38 1999 From: rkaplan at accsys-corp.com (Randy Kaplan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: Outbid Message-ID: <3809E18A.24E93761@accsys-corp.com> Hello all - About a week ago I put a bid on a Micro PDP-11/23 on ebay. I was top bidder until the end. Of course the end was when I was asleep (3 AM) this morning (serves me right for sleeping). Got up and was very disappointed. Since the recent discussion about collectors vs. enthusiasts I thought I would share this with the group. As a new collector, I have been reading alot about sources and establishing networks but they are not in place yet so one of my main venues is ebay at this time. I plan to start contacting scrappers, universities, and friends in companies soon. But, alas, today a PDP-11/23 flew by. Randy Kaplan From daniel at internet.look.ca Sun Oct 17 09:51:11 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: Outbid Message-ID: <003801bf18af$0e5bbda0$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> Randy, I have another 11/73 loaded I was going to put up on EBay , you can have it for $300. It has a tape drive, RD52, memory, 8 line serial port, runs, its missing one switch on the front and the bottom of the stand is cracked.. other than that it runs micro rsx - happy machine. I think I might be able to dig up an RX50 for it as well. If you want it or anyone else please email me. -----Original Message----- From: Randy Kaplan To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, October 17, 1999 10:47 AM Subject: Outbid >Hello all - > >About a week ago I put a bid on a Micro PDP-11/23 on ebay. I was top >bidder until the end. Of course the end was when I was asleep (3 AM) >this morning (serves me right for sleeping). Got up and was very >disappointed. Since the recent discussion about collectors vs. >enthusiasts I thought I would share this with the group. As a new >collector, I have been reading alot about sources and establishing >networks but they are not in place yet so one of my main venues is ebay >at this time. I plan to start contacting scrappers, universities, and >friends in companies soon. But, alas, today a PDP-11/23 flew by. > >Randy Kaplan > From lance at costanzo.net Sun Oct 17 10:27:19 1999 From: lance at costanzo.net (Lance Costanzo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: HP RTE Manuals Message-ID: <3.0.32.19991017082717.006d63fc@costanzo.net> I rescued two RTE manuals from the trash. RTE System Internals, Volumes I and II, February 1981. They look manuals from an HP training course. Manuals are FREE. I figure $5 should cover mailing within the US-48. Lemme know or back in the bin they go. Lance. Lance Costanzo http://www.webhighrise.com System Administrator Website and Virtual Domain Hosting lance@costanzo.net starting at $5/month, no setup fees From edick at idcomm.com Sun Oct 17 11:00:41 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: TImex SInclair 1000 Manual Message-ID: <002b01bf18b8$c55515c0$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> While digging through a box of "stuff" I have, I found a Timex Sinclair 1000 manual in used but decent condition and apparently quite complete. Is this something best placed on eBay, or do you some of you guys have use for it? Dick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991017/14d43d61/attachment.html From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sun Oct 17 11:15:10 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: identify this PDP11 core Message-ID: <199910171615.LAA17930@thufir.cs.umn.edu> What PDP11 system accepts this core memory set, and what type of buss? G116 H224C 32K Core Memory G236 Thanks. -Lawrence LeMay From lkinzer at sciti.com Sun Oct 17 11:17:47 1999 From: lkinzer at sciti.com (Lowell Kinzer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: Kaypro Computer History In-Reply-To: <37F18243.7631C4D7@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991010072006.00ab3e90@popmail.ltsp.com> I've added a bit of info below. Best Regards, Lowell Kinzer lkinzer@sciti.com At 08:06 PM 9/28/99 , Phil Clayton wrote: >Since everyone is on the subject of Kaypro here is some information that >I have compiled from articles I have read.. Kaypro BTW is my favorite >computer I have at least one of every model in my collection, excluding >a Kaypro Robie.. ALso have a Model 16 .. Perhaps someone could update >this list and ad to it.. The more information the better.. Hope this is >of some interest to everyone.. >Phil... > >Kaypro Computer and Non-Linear Systems > >After Adam Osborne came out with the O-1, it was immediately set up as a >target. Every company started shooting at the magic price of $1800. >Among the people to set their sights at this figure was Alan Kay. Alan >had originally started a company which sold oscilloscopes called >Non-Linear Systems. The company name was Non-Linear Systems, Incorporated. Here is a description of the company from a KAYCOMP II brochure, circa 1982: A WORD ABOUT NLS Non-Linear Systems, Inc., is the originator of the digital voltmeter and an innovative leader in the field of electronic test equipment. Organized in 1952, NLS has been a major supplier of digital voltmeters and ratiometers to large corporations in the aerospace industry. Since 1972 NLS has been consumer directed, organizing a worldwide network of distributors, providing small, portable multimeters, oscilloscopes, counters, frequency meters, temperature meters and DPM's. And now--NLS has entered the world of computers with one prime thought--to provide the best value in a small, business and family computer. >He decided Osborne had the right idea, but needed a >little tweaking on the case. He envisioned a computer which would not >only be rugged enough to be carried around, but would be tough enough to >be carried out in the field by engineers. With this idea in mind, he >designed the Kaypro Computer. > >The case was made of aluminum which allowed it to be extremely rugged, >but still save a little weight. These are sometimes nicknamed "Darth >Vader's lunch box." Needless to say, this case passed the test for >ruggedness. Except for the Robie and later DOS machines, all Kaypros >had the same case and varying shades of gray paint. > >All the computers came bundled with software, originally the Perfect >Series, but later WordStar and >SuperCalc. An early (black & white) KAYCOMP II brochure lists the following software bundle: STANDARD SOFTWARE CP/M -- General purpose operating system. SUPERVYZ -- a menu operating system providing the untrained user immediate access to computer activity. MBASIC -- High-level interpreter language for quickly obtaining problem solutions. MULTIPLAN electronic worksheet for interdependent variables. Word processing program. MU/MATH -- Advanced mathematical manipulation program. A later color KAYCOMP II brochure lists a different software bundle. STANDARD SOFTWARE INCLUDED: CP/M 2.2 SBASIC SELECT wordprocessor PROFITPLAN spreadsheet program UTILYZE menu driven CP SOFTWARE OPTIONS: Finance and programmable PROFITPLAN enhancements. SELECT spelling dictionary. M/BASIC Here is the software list from a 1983 KAYPRO II brochure. STANDARD SOFTWARE INCLUDED: WORDSTAR THE WORD PLUS PERFECT WRITER PERFECT SPELLER PERFECT FILER PERFECT CALC PROFITPLAN CP/M 2.2 MICROSOFT BASIC UNIFORM OPTIONAL SOFTWARE: MAILMERGE -- A WORDSTAR-compatible mailing list/form letter program MICROPLAN -- An upgrade of PROFITPLAN specializing in financial analysis CONSOLODATED MODULE -- A MICROPLAN enhancement for merging individual spreadsheets dBASE II -- A relational database management system SUPERTERM -- For transmitting and receiving data via a modem S-BASIC -- A structured basic language for programming B-TREES -- A programmer's file indexing system written in S-BASIC C-BASIC -- A basic high level language for programming TINKERKIT -- BIOS ROM and utility source listings > >Kay originally sold his computers under the company name of Kaypro, but >it turned out this name had already been taken. He then sold the >computers under the Non-Linear name, but was able to keep the Kaypro >name on the computers. Somewhere along the way, he did manage to acquire >the rights to Kaypro Company, but it was late in the company's life. The computer was originally marketed as the KAYCOMP II. Copyright to the name "Kaycomp" was held by others, so the computer name was changed to Kaypro II (I don't know if I still have a copy of the source for that info). If I recall correctly, Kaypro Incorporated was created in mid 1983, separating the computer production from NLS ( which "became a wholly-owned division of Linear Measurements, Inc." in 1992 according to http://www.nonlinearsystems.com/index.html). Andy Kay's latest venture is Kay Computers (www.kaycomputers.com), which produces the Pro Series line of computers. >The Kaypro II is the oldest computer Kaypro made. It has SSDD disks and >the screen is green and it has the standard 64 K of RAM. Non-Linear Systems, Incorporated's first computer model was called the Kaycomp II and was released in March 1982 at a price of $1,795. A "new products" article about the Kaycomp II appeared in the Electronic Engineering Times 3/15/82 issue. It included a black & white photo of the Kaycomp II, which has the CRT centered in the case, a disk drive placed vertically on either side of the CRT. The brightness control, power and reset switches are above the left-hand disk drive. There are no ventilation holes along the top of the sides like those on later models. The case is painted a solid, dark color. There is a horizontal stripe, in a lighter color across the center of the side containing the logo "KAYCOMP II." The keyboard enclosure is the same color as the contrasting stripe. The picture caption says that "[t]he Z80A-based micro comes wrapped in a fan-cooled metal cabinet that snaps together for easy portability." In the body of the article, the case is referred to as "weatherproof" and "low-profile." >After Kaypro left Chapter 11, they came out with several DOS >compatibles, but were no longer considered a force in the industry. >There were several unique units that came out including some extremely >compact units that were designed to be desktop computers but were light >enough to be carried from place to place. > >Kaypro II >In the beginning there was the Kaypro II (aka II'83 later). It came >with 2 SS/DD full-height floppies, a 2.5 MHz Z-80, one serial port, and >bundled software from Perfect Software. Introduced late 82. > >Kaypro 10 >Next was the original Kaypro 10. It came with 1 DS/DD floppy drive, a 10 >meg HD, a 4.0 MHz Z-80A, two serial ports, light pen port, rudimentary >graphics, a real time clock, and software from Perfect >Software and dBase II. Introduced mid-83. > >Kaypro IV >Then there was a Kaypro IV (aka IV'83 later). It was a II, but with >DS/DD full-height floppy drives. Wordstar started being included in >addition to the Perfect Software suite. Introduced in mid-83. (Same goes >for the II'83, late versions included Wordstar also.) > >1984 rolls around, and some changes made. > >Kaypro 4 >The 4 (aka 4'84) is introduced. It now has two DS/DD half-height floppy >drives, a Z-80A at 4.0 MHz, 2 serial ports, internal 300 baud modem, a >real-time clock, rudimentary graphics. Software is from Micropro >(Wordstar, Calcstar, etc.) Early 1984. > >Kaypro 2 >The 2 (aka 2'83) is introduced. It has two SS/DD half-height floppy >drives, a Z-80A at 4.0 MHz, 2 serial ports, rudimentary graphics. >Software is from Micropro. Slightly later in 84. > >Kaypro 2X >The 2X is introduced. This is closer to an old IV, or a 2 with DS/DD >half-height drives. Again a Z-80A running at 4.0 MHz, 2 serial ports, >rudimentary graphics, software from Micropro. > >Kaypro Robbie >Early 84. The Kaypro Robie is introduced. This is the first non-portable >machine, a black desktop. This has 2 2.6 Megabyte (not a typo) floppy >drives. Motherboard is basically the same as a 4, with the 300 baud >modem, rough graphics, etc. (late 84?) > >1985 arrives. Kaypro upgrades most of the machines to the "Universal >ROM", so a boot disk for one can be used in another. > >The 4'84 is renamed the 2X (sometimes known as 2X MTC). Old 2X, 2'84, >4'84 are all dropped. > >Kaypro New 2 >The "New 2" is introduced. This is basically an old 2X motherboard, but >with just one DS/DD floppy drive. It comes with just CP/M and Wordstar >for software. (early 85?) >Kaypro starts producing the II'83 again, with Perfect software as >opposed to Micropro software. (early 85). > >Kaypro 4X >The Kaypro 4X is announced. It's a Robie but in the standard portable >case. I also have seen reference to the 12X, which was going to be a >Kaypro 10 but with a Robie floppy drive. (I've never actually >seen a 4X or a 12X. The store where I worked might have sold only one or >two Robies, so it wasn't a big seller.) > >1986 or so arrives. > >Kaypro 1 >The Kaypro 1 (yes one) is introduced. It's equivalent to the old 2X, >with 2 DS/DD floppies, 4.0 MHz Z-80A, 2 serial ports, etc. The floppies >are vertical as opposed to horizontal. It comes with >CP/M and Perfect Writer for software. > >At this point, Kaypro is producing just the 1, 2X MTC, 10 and Robie >basically. This continued until they got out of the CP/M machines. > >There were also a few variations on some of these machines, such as the >4+88, which had a SWP (?) co-processor board with an 8088, 256K of >memory (which could be a ramdisk under CP/M), and could run some MS/Dos >software. > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Oct 17 11:22:36 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: Apple II-C Message-ID: <003a01bf18bb$d3add8c0$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Another thing I've had lying about for a number of years is an apple II-C. Is there anything one can do with this thing hardware-wise to use it for some for of fairly complete I/O processing? If I pry it open, will I find anything there to which I could attach a cable and bring out, say, sufficient signals, etc, to drive a PIA or some such? Is there a bit of free software one can use to develop code for this thing? I'd like to fiddle with it if it allows putzing with I/O, since I'm always trying to stimulate/monitor SOMETHING to see how/whether it works. A simple box like the II-C might be just the thing. Any suggestions? Dick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991017/10acab1a/attachment.html From edick at idcomm.com Sun Oct 17 11:26:58 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: Commodore manuals Message-ID: <004701bf18bc$7136d380$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> While passing time on a snowy day when I didn't want to go outside yesterday, I saw the manual for a Commodore 64 while sifting through the rubble. I also found a VIC-20 manual while doing this sifting. Would this be of interest to anyone? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, October 17, 1999 10:13 AM Subject: TImex SInclair 1000 Manual While digging through a box of "stuff" I have, I found a Timex Sinclair 1000 manual in used but decent condition and apparently quite complete. Is this something best placed on eBay, or do you some of you guys have use for it? Dick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991017/b655c638/attachment.html From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sun Oct 17 11:37:53 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: Outbid Message-ID: <19991017.113754.245.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> If you're going to bid on e-bay, be prepared to get hurt. It's the most unforgiving marketplace on earth. It is regularly prowled by individuals with *extremely* deep pockets. Jeff On Sun, 17 Oct 1999 10:47:38 -0400 Randy Kaplan writes: >Hello all - > >About a week ago I put a bid on a Micro PDP-11/23 on ebay. I was top >bidder until the end. Of course the end was when I was asleep (3 AM) >this morning (serves me right for sleeping). Got up and was very >disappointed. Since the recent discussion about collectors vs. >enthusiasts I thought I would share this with the group. As a new >collector, I have been reading alot about sources and establishing >networks but they are not in place yet so one of my main venues is >ebay >at this time. I plan to start contacting scrappers, universities, and >friends in companies soon. But, alas, today a PDP-11/23 flew by. > >Randy Kaplan > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From schoedel at kw.igs.net Sun Oct 17 11:49:47 1999 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (schoedel@kw.igs.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: Outbid In-Reply-To: <003801bf18af$0e5bbda0$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> References: <003801bf18af$0e5bbda0$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> Message-ID: >Randy, I have another 11/73 loaded I was going to put up on EBay , you can >have it for $300. It has a tape drive, RD52, memory, 8 line serial port, >runs, its missing one switch on the front and the bottom of the stand is >cracked.. other than that it runs micro rsx - happy machine. I think I might >be able to dig up an RX50 for it as well. Let me add a data point, lest Randy or others be left with the idea that ebay prices are universal. Last month I bought an 11/73 for $5; the zeros came *after* the decimal point. -- Kevin schoedel@kw.igs.net From emu at ecubics.com Sun Oct 17 12:18:26 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: HP 9000/720 memory References: <003801bf18af$0e5bbda0$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> Message-ID: <013801bf18c3$a0a069e0$5d01a8c0@ecubuero> Hi, anybody knows, where to get cheap memory for the HP 9000/720 ? thanks, emanuel From markiw at prodigy.net Sun Oct 17 12:44:55 1999 From: markiw at prodigy.net (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: Outbid Message-ID: <001c01bf18c7$53ed91a0$b72dfea9@cel-366> >About a week ago I put a bid on a Micro PDP-11/23 on ebay. I was top >bidder until the end. Don't you hate it when that happens? One thing that I myself forget at eBay is that you can state a maximum bid and the machine will automagically bid for you in the stated increments until the auction either ends or your maximum bid limit is reached. I am writing this on a computer I got there last year at about half the going price that way. As eBay has gotten popular it is getting harder to just watch the auctions and bid yourself. In fact, I no longer shop there anymore as I think the prices have gone postal. Regards, Jim Rossbach, Visit the Web sites of Navy Vietnam Veterans at the Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club, http://tonkinyachts.cjb.net From markiw at prodigy.net Sun Oct 17 12:54:55 1999 From: markiw at prodigy.net (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: Kaypro Computer History Message-ID: <004901bf18c8$b921f740$b72dfea9@cel-366> Thanks for the KayPro history reminder. I have not forgotten the Web page project and have just added your note to the file. I will get moving on it as soon as the weather turns winter. And please people, send me some scans of any and all KayPro graphics/photos you might have. So far only one gentleman has sent anything. Let's not let these fine machines be forgotten. (Okay, so maybe I should get a life, huh?) Send your KayPro scans to me at tgycwr@yahoo.com best. Thanks, Jim Rossbach, Visit the Web sites of Navy Vietnam Veterans at the Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club, http://tonkinyachts.cjb.net > From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Oct 17 12:57:31 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: Outbid Message-ID: <199910171757.NAA05808@world.std.com> Curious what are they going for? I'm still finding them for free to $100 a really nice corperate system complete might be worth more if you can haul it in the associted racks. Allison --- daniel wrote: > >> One of the other interesting items are a M7260/M7261 pair... > Actually the 11/05 and the 11/10 have two different backplanes (as I have > both) and the cards are fitted differently in each one. Keep your H214 > memory and G231/G110 core drivers.. The 11/05 uses that for it's own memory. > The older 11/05 backplane did not use +15V either! Given where this stuff came from (there's an inventory sticker glued to the back of one of the CPU boards of the company I rescued it from), that all makes sense. > Which CPU boards do you have. It's easy to tell. Does one of them have a > rotary switch to set the baud rate? It's not in front of me, but I do rememeber spotting one of those button rotaries on there and wondering what it was for. I recovnize it as usually being for baud rate, but I was guessing it was some kind of timing adjustment. > To get an 11/05 running you need: To jump in out of turn, IIRC, this particular unit also came to me with an RX11 controller. > M7260 > M7261 Check. > G231 X 2 > G110 X 2 > H214 X2 Well... I've only got 16K > G727 (grant) I have crates of those, including several "Grantasaurous Rex" cards, the original third-party double grant card (NPR plus the other three). I should scan one. For those that haven't seen them, they have no colored handle, but the PCB is but into a soft-edged T-handle with a dinosaur silkscreened in red on the "component" side. Somewhere, I still have the original artwork. Software Results Corp made and shipped one with every COMBOARD(R) > You don't need a console serial board (M7800) as that was built into the CPU > board. I didn't know that. I take it that it uses the standard DL11 cable? > You can tell the year of the PDP 11/05 CPU set by: > > 74 - if the back of the boards are green (solder masked) Bingo. > I have restored many PDP 11/05s for "collectors" - yes, at $875 a pop! Stunning. > I have about 5-6 cpu sets, 1 is beta. Interesting. > >> Finally, we come to an RK11D board set... M7254 through M7257. > I have two sets of these and run 8 RK05s, again, restored many of these. You > need a RK11-D backplane. I'm not sure I have one of those. > You can hand wire one (yes I know many who have for UNIBUS operation I can probably come up with the goodies to do that. I have the remnants of a PDP-8/L that came as parts with the first one I got... the chassis was broken (mounting bar in the front), the front panel scavenged, no core and obviously broken wires on the backplane. I wish I hadn't now, but I did remove the remaining wires from the backplane (one at a time, documenting them because it was the only way at the time to try and understand how the other one worked). The end result is that I have a set of DEC backplane blocks I could wire into a different configuration. I recycled the stamped metal bus strips on a couple segments into the upper address bits on a BA11N way back. DEC used to sell that stuff by the foot. I'd love to get a spool of it (Ha!) > The best backplane I have is from someone who completely modified a PDP > 11/05 (16K backplane).He took out the second core memory set and completely > hand wired the RK11-D on it. Yikes. It works and I still have the plane if > you are interested in the wire list to do that. Wow. Much work. I'll get back to you if I can't find an RK11D backplane. > The PDP 11/05 needs AClow, DClow,5V, -15V. > > The newer ones required +15V. Muchas Gracias. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From rwaltman at bellatlantic.net Sun Oct 17 13:11:05 1999 From: rwaltman at bellatlantic.net (Roberto Waltman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: HP RTE Manuals In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19991017082717.006d63fc@costanzo.net> References: <3.0.32.19991017082717.006d63fc@costanzo.net> Message-ID: <38201134.19561718@core.iconnet.net> Lance, If they are still available I would like to take them. This is my contact info: Roberto Waltman 340 Sicomac Ave. Wyckoff, NJ 07481 201-847-9496 rwaltman@bellatlantic.net Which version of RTE are these for ? (I worked on RTE-II) Thanks, RW. On Sun, 17 Oct 1999 08:27:19 -0700, you wrote: >I rescued two RTE manuals from the trash. >RTE System Internals, Volumes I and II, February 1981. >They look manuals from an HP training course. >Manuals are FREE. >I figure $5 should cover mailing within the US-48. >Lemme know or back in the bin they go. >Lance. > > >Lance Costanzo http://www.webhighrise.com >System Administrator Website and Virtual Domain Hosting >lance@costanzo.net starting at $5/month, no setup fees From rwaltman at bellatlantic.net Sun Oct 17 13:31:31 1999 From: rwaltman at bellatlantic.net (Roberto Waltman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: HP RTE Manuals In-Reply-To: <38201134.19561718@core.iconnet.net> References: <3.0.32.19991017082717.006d63fc@costanzo.net> <38201134.19561718@core.iconnet.net> Message-ID: <38241599.20686165@core.iconnet.net> Oops ! There are two kind of usenet users, those that have already sent a message to the wrong destination, and those that will... On Sun, 17 Oct 1999 18:11:05 GMT, you wrote: >Lance, > >If they are still available I would like to >take them. This is my contact info: > > Roberto Waltman <.....> From hansp at digiweb.com Sat Oct 16 14:47:12 1999 From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: HP RTE Manuals References: <3.0.32.19991017082717.006d63fc@costanzo.net> Message-ID: <3808D640.69F34B69@digiweb.com> Lance Costanzo wrote: > > I rescued two RTE manuals from the trash. > RTE System Internals, Volumes I and II, February 1981. > They look manuals from an HP training course. > Manuals are FREE. > I figure $5 should cover mailing within the US-48. > Lemme know or back in the bin they go. > Lance. On the off chance that I might be first I will take these Reagrds _---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 17 13:25:53 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: DEC boards unearthed In-Reply-To: <19991017064632.17046.rocketmail@ web605.yahoomail.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 16, 99 11:46:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1270 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991017/6b937f44/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 17 13:36:07 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: DEC boards unearthed - I have some info In-Reply-To: <001701bf18a2$13463500$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> from "daniel" at Oct 17, 99 09:18:16 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2731 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991017/2689f57a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 17 13:47:20 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: DEC boards unearthed - I have some info In-Reply-To: <19991017180220.25655.rocketmail@web607.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 17, 99 11:02:20 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 609 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991017/7362d8ab/attachment.ksh From red at bears.org Sun Oct 17 15:16:59 1999 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: HP 9000/720 memory In-Reply-To: <013801bf18c3$a0a069e0$5d01a8c0@ecubuero> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Oct 1999, emanuel stiebler wrote: > anybody knows, where to get cheap memory for the HP 9000/720 ? The 720 should take standard 72 pin parity SIMMs in pairs, which you can get nearly anywhere. ok r. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Oct 17 15:18:40 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: Apple II-C In-Reply-To: <003a01bf18bb$d3add8c0$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Message-ID: > Another thing I've had lying about for a number of years is an apple >II-C. Is there anything one can do with this thing hardware-wise to use >it for some for of fairly complete I/O processing? If I pry it open, >will I find Don't pry it open, but with some simple code you should be able to use the serial ports and joystick connectors for some other purpose. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Oct 17 15:42:33 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: EBaying; howling after an auction In-Reply-To: <3809E18A.24E93761@accsys-corp.com> Message-ID: >About a week ago I put a bid on a Micro PDP-11/23 on ebay. I was top >bidder until the end. Of course the end was when I was asleep (3 AM) The bidding doesn't start until the end on most items. I prefer not to bid at all until the end so I don't "show my hand" on higher priced items. Either bid at the end, and I mean well within the last minute if not the last 10 seconds or so, or bid the full amount you are willing to pay for the item. From daniel at internet.look.ca Sun Oct 17 16:07:48 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: Outbid Message-ID: <001e01bf18e3$ab4175e0$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> -----Original Message----- From: schoedel@kw.igs.net To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, October 17, 1999 12:54 PM Subject: Re: Outbid >>Randy, I have another 11/73 loaded I was going to put up on EBay , you can >>have it for $300. It has a tape drive, RD52, memory, 8 line serial port, >>runs, its missing one switch on the front and the bottom of the stand is >>cracked.. other than that it runs micro rsx - happy machine. I think I might >>be able to dig up an RX50 for it as well. > >Let me add a data point, lest Randy or others be left with the idea that >ebay prices are universal. Last month I bought an 11/73 for $5; the zeros >came *after* the decimal point. and I am picking up: 2 Honeywell 316 systems with 4 (I repeat) 4 - PDP 11/05s with 2 RK05 on each) - FOR FREE! Either: 1- Straight 8 with full docs or 1- IBM 360 for $200. I don't think I'll sell any of them for less than $1000. Just because we get something for $5 or free does not mean they are *worth* that. (and I'm not even talking EBay dollars!) john > >-- >Kevin >schoedel@kw.igs.net > From daniel at internet.look.ca Sun Oct 17 16:10:02 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:56 2005 Subject: DEC boards unearthed - I have some info Message-ID: <002701bf18e3$fb128140$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, October 17, 1999 2:54 PM Subject: Re: DEC boards unearthed - I have some info >> >> One of the other interesting items are a M7260/M7251 pair, one marked >> >> "datapath", one marked "11/05 control". These are clearly the CPU for an >> >> 11/05, but will they go into an 11/04 or short (not BA-11) 11/34 chassis >> >> for testing? >> > >> >You need the 11/05 (or 11/10 -- they're the same) backplane and >> >frontpanel for these. There was a 5.25" box versions and a 10.5" box >> >version with _different_ backplanes. They won't work in an 11/04 or 11/34 >> >backplane, though >> > >> > >> >> Actually the 11/05 and the 11/10 have two different backplanes (as I have >> both) and the cards are fitted differently in each one. Keep your H214 > >There are at least 3 different backplanes, but the 11/05 and 11/10 can >use any of them. The 11/05 and 11/10 are really the same machine -- the >differences seem to be what was included when the machine was originally >shipped. > >The first backplane goes in the 5.25" box. The CPU cards go at the bottom >(in slots 8 and 9). No, CPU goes in slots 2&3, the maintenance board goes in slot 1. The next 3 slots are for one set of core memory >boards. And then 4 SPC slots, with Unibus out on slot 1 (top of box -- >yes, I do have this the right way round!). > >The second backplane is similar, and also goes in the 5.25" box. Again >the CPU goes in the bottom. The next 6 slots are for 2 sets of core >memory, with a single SPC (and unibus out) at the top (slot 1) > >The third backplane goes in the BA11-K 10.5" box. The CPU goes on the far >right (slots 1 and 2). Unibus out is on slot 9 (as you'd expect). One of >the A+B slots is for a paddleboard that connects to the the console >cable. I can't remember how many core memory sets you can put into it. > >> 74 - if the back of the boards are green (solder masked) >> 72/73 - if there is no baud selection switch > >Hmmm... They're strictly different systems -- the rotary switch implies >it's an 11/05S board set. This has 2 extra features, firstly you can >easily disable the on-board console port (if you want to use a DL11 for >some reason) and secondly you can disable the unibus arbiter so that the >CPU can be a slave device on the unibus of another machine. > >> >> The best backplane I have is from someone who completely modified a PDP >> 11/05 (16K backplane).He took out the second core memory set and completely >> hand wired the RK11-D on it. Yikes. It works and I still have the plane if > >Seems reasonable. Modifying backplanes isn't _that_ hard if you are >careful. I've done a couple of major backplane mods. The best thing to do >is to make a wirelist and tick off each wire as you do it. Oh, and don't >bother with one of those slit-n-wrap tools -- the general experience of >those is that about 10% of the connections are actually good. Do the job >properly, and it will work. > >-tony > From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Sun Oct 17 16:33:35 1999 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: Outbid In-Reply-To: <3809E18A.24E93761@accsys-corp.com> from Randy Kaplan at "Oct 17, 1999 10:47:38 am" Message-ID: <19991017213338Z433233-17223+148@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > Hello all - > > About a week ago I put a bid on a Micro PDP-11/23 on ebay. I was top > bidder until the end. Of course the end was when I was asleep (3 AM) > this morning (serves me right for sleeping). Got up and was very > disappointed. Since the recent discussion about collectors vs. > enthusiasts I thought I would share this with the group. As a new > collector, I have been reading alot about sources and establishing > networks but they are not in place yet so one of my main venues is ebay > at this time. I plan to start contacting scrappers, universities, and > friends in companies soon. But, alas, today a PDP-11/23 flew by. > Well I was the person who outbid you. By the way its an 11/73, I don't think the person who is selling it really knows the configuation. If I recall correctly, I was the first person to bid on it when it first appeared on eBay. There were several reasons why I was interested in it: 1) Its in the same country that I'm in, and reasonably close, so I save a lot on shipping and customs. Not all of us who bid on eBay have "deep pockets", so when I see a system where I can save more than $100 in shipping and customs I bid more aggresively. All the complete systems I've bought on eBay have been located in Canada for just that reason. 2) I use these systems to host vintage graphics displays. I have an E&S PS390 arriving this week, and I need a host for it. I don't intend to leave it in a corner as part of a "collection", I intend to have it up and running. 3) Cheap systems are hard to come by in this neck of the woods. There were not a large number of PDP11s shipped to Edmonton to start with, and many of them ended up in process control systems. Unfortunately, these machines were typically scrapped when the system was upgraded. I have contacts within a number of the companies where they are still used, and I hope those systems will eventually come my way. But, I don't know when, and I can't be sure. About a month ago I was offered two PDP11/44 systems, but I was called a few hours before going to pick them up, the deal was off. It turned out that the company found another use for them, but they promised I'd get them when they were finished with them. Basically, eBay is still cheaper than going to resellers to get stuff. For those of us who want working systems and aren't in Silicon Valley or on the East Coast, there aren't too many other choices. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Oct 17 16:51:35 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: Outbid Message-ID: <199910172151.RAA05440@world.std.com> Message-ID: <9910171754030U.08423@vault.neurotica.com> On Sun, 17 Oct 1999, Mike Ford wrote: >>About a week ago I put a bid on a Micro PDP-11/23 on ebay. I was top >>bidder until the end. Of course the end was when I was asleep (3 AM) > >The bidding doesn't start until the end on most items. I prefer not to bid >at all until the end so I don't "show my hand" on higher priced items. >Either bid at the end, and I mean well within the last minute if not the >last 10 seconds or so, or bid the full amount you are willing to pay for >the item. Ahh, the time-honored practice of "sniping". Yes, it works rather well...some people scream about it, but the fact remains that it's the best way to get what you want on eBay. People seem to forget that what makes it "fair" is that it goes both ways. Snipers get sniped as often as non-snipers. If you're bidding on something that you really want, be prepared to be awake and in front of your machine when the auction ends. Everyone learns this after a while. -Dave McGuire From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 17 16:55:14 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: Outbid References: <199910172151.RAA05440@world.std.com> Message-ID: <9910171756340V.08423@vault.neurotica.com> On Sun, 17 Oct 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: > >Ick, my machine can out bid you machine. Ah, shades of the 87 stockmarket. > >I think I stay away from online auctions for another few years. Well...pick all you want...I, for one, have systematically crossed off dozens of items from my "wish list", some going back fifteen years or more, because of eBay and learning how to actually win auctions there. It might be icky and disgusting, but it's rather effective. -Dave McGuire From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sun Oct 17 16:37:01 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: Outbid Message-ID: <19991017.171056.254.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Now see guys? That's the kinda pricing *I* like to see! (It's the only kind I can afford . . . .) Jeff >Let me add a data point, lest Randy or others be left with the idea >that ebay prices are universal. Last month I bought an 11/73 for $5; the >zeros came *after* the decimal point. > >-- >Kevin >schoedel@kw.igs.net ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sun Oct 17 16:41:42 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: Outbid Message-ID: <19991017.171056.254.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Sun, 17 Oct 1999 10:44:55 -0700 "Mark" writes: >>About a week ago I put a bid on a Micro PDP-11/23 on ebay. I was top >>bidder until the end. > >Don't you hate it when that happens? > >One thing that I myself forget at eBay is that you can state a maximum >bid and the machine will automagically bid for you in the stated >increments >until the auction either ends or your maximum bid limit is reached. > >I am writing this on a computer I got there last year at about half >the going price that way. As eBay has gotten popular it is getting harder >to just watch the auctions and bid yourself. In fact, I no longer shop >there anymore as I think the prices have gone postal. Well, despite your astute observation, there *are* some bargains to be had. I just got an NOS 8" FDD for <$4. YOu just have to know which items are likely to go 'postal' and stay away. . . Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Oct 17 17:35:11 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: Quake? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991016161423.00ac93a0@206.231.8.2> References: <991016110649.2360039b@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: >>Early morning rambling, still jittery after my bookshelves fell down from >>the earthquake last night... >> > >I heard of the quake thru another radio-related list. How's everybody doing? I was sitting at my computer in Orange, Ca when the quake hit, and once the wiggling stopped hit the shutdown button and bypassed my Norton check so it would happen NOW. Family was all fine, but my son wanted company to the bathroom, so I waited with him, then dashed for the garage and my 9 foot collection of shelving. NOTHING even tipped over on any shelf, sturdy as ever, and not a earthquake fastener on anything (yet, it did put some fear in me about finding my car buried in old computers). BTW this was a "rolling" quake, so some hanging lamps where doing some serious swings. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Oct 17 17:54:30 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: EBaying; howling after an auction In-Reply-To: <9910171754030U.08423@vault.neurotica.com> References: Message-ID: >>Either bid at the end, and I mean well within the last minute if not the >>last 10 seconds or so, or bid the full amount you are willing to pay for >>the item. > > If you're bidding on something that you really want, be prepared to be awake >and in front of your machine when the auction ends. Everyone learns this >after >a while. Or just bid your full amount to start with. Lots of people use eBay like a email store and just place an order, with a bid that delivers 90% of the time. Right now I have a couple 230 MB 3.5" magneto optical drives, and a local auction has a LOT more of them, so I would "really" like to get a couple of the disc's that work with it (128 MB or 230 MB) to see if my work, and if I like them. Ebay so far looks like the best source, I just haven't tried to hard to buy some yet. From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sun Oct 17 18:04:00 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: PS/2 Model 50 help wanted References: <199910160129.VAA20746@world.std.com> Message-ID: <380A55E0.37BD6E58@bigfoot.com> Allison J Parent wrote: > I have one of these PS2/M50Z. Nice boxen! > > There wer two versions the M50 and the M50Z. The latter was the faster 286 > of the two. > > <1) The machine contains what I assume to be the hard disc controller, what > > The two standard controllers were 20mb or 60mb but there were later ones to > I think 120mb. The 20mb/30mb controller is MFM and the drive will have a type number on it if the controller is MFM. The ESDI controllers can take up to 160mb ESDI PS/2 drives and need no reconfig when changing drives. > <2) Can the machine accept 2.88Mb drives (this one is purely out of interest > > Not that I know of. I haven't tried it either but it's probable if not possible. Now he has me wanting to experiment. > <3) There is an expansion card with no markings on installed in the slot > > Likely a memory expansion. May be some obscure processor upgrade as well. Run DOS's MSD or Norton SI (or similar info program) to see, or even run the program available on Peter Wendt's German (in English though) PS/2 site at http://members.aol.com/mcapage0/mcaindex.htm called QBMCA which will give you the ID number of thr microchannel card and the title/description of it., by slot number. > <4) The "paddle" on the power switch has been broken off. Can I get a > best source is a PS/2 wreck (most any of the older models.). there is > a web site that has PS/2 info. Can't seem to find it right now. http://members.tripod.com/~ps2page/ From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sun Oct 17 18:09:25 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: PS/2 Model 50 help wanted References: <3.0.5.32.19991016015600.0095a810@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <380A5725.CBD99013@bigfoot.com> Bruce Lane wrote: > Hard to tell without seeing the controller, or knowing what flat cables > are coming off it. IBM was quite fond of using a proprietary and > oddly-wired interface that, apparently, only IBM drives could plug into. Drives marked with a TYPE number were MFM and only 20 and 30 mb generally. The others (mostly 50Z's) were ESDI and no type number since they auto-config with the host adapter. > >2) Can the machine accept 2.88Mb drives (this one is purely out of interest)? > > That will take a wiser head than mine to answer. I know the model 85's and > 95's can, but I'm not sure about the older systems. 56's, 57's, 90's, 85's and some others come with them. 80's can use them. Not sure if the 286 crowd could but now I need to try it out. From bill_r at inetnebr.com Sun Oct 17 18:52:35 1999 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: Wanted: MOSTEK 387x Manual Message-ID: <381f60cc.936321378@insight> I'm looking for a Mostek 3870 Databook from 1981 (I've got an older one; for that matter I've got the 1981 version too, but it ended up getting peed on by rodents in the basement of my old house while we were moving... *sigh I hope that wasn't some kind of mouse social comment; they didn't touch the Zilog Z-80 manual or the Intel 8086 book right next to it.) I've got a bunch of the 3874's & 3876's with EPROM sockets on the back; we've used several in personal projects. That book was extremely useful, but now it's not something I want to get close to; it's sealed in a plastic bag in case we come up with a way to deodorize it but... *thud. Any help would be appreciated! :-) (Wonder what happens if you bake a book in a kiln or something at 250-300 degrees for a few hours? Would that take the smell out? It's not sticky - just *stinky*.) -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r - Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Oct 17 18:52:02 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: EBaying; howling after an auction Message-ID: <991017195202.23600475@trailing-edge.com> >>>Either bid at the end, and I mean well within the last minute if not the >>>last 10 seconds or so, or bid the full amount you are willing to pay for >>>the item. >> >> If you're bidding on something that you really want, be prepared to be awake >>and in front of your machine when the auction ends. Everyone learns this >>after >>a while. >Or just bid your full amount to start with. Lots of people use eBay like a >email store and just place an order, with a bid that delivers 90% of the >time. I've done that - usually for some oddball item that nobody else would likely want, anyway. I've been following the E-bay auctions for SCSI drives closely in the past month or two, and what's *really* amazing is that sometimes there'll be 4 identical items, all from the same seller, all closing within minutes of each other, and in one auction the drive is bid up to $180.00 and in an another auctions the cost settles around $60-$70. Someone here said that E-bay is perhaps one of the harshest marketplaces around, implying (I think) that it's pure open competition with commonly available knowledge, but this isn't always the case: some of the bidders haven't a clue as to what's going on, and instead of treating the auction as what it is - a business transaction - they get caught up in the frenzy of bidding. (It takes at least *two* such bidders to bid the price up to ridiculous heights.) I personally don't understand "sniping" at all - it isn't necessary. Set your maximum bid what you're willing to pay. If someone else outbids you, you didn't "lose" - "losing" is when you pay more than you're willing, not when someone outbids you! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From jwebste3 at bellsouth.net Sun Oct 17 20:25:57 1999 From: jwebste3 at bellsouth.net (JAMES WEBSTER) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: EBaying; howling after an auction References: <991017195202.23600475@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <380A7725.6150@bellsouth.net> I've seen this, too. On one particular item that I wanted, in viewing the "View Sellers Other Auctions", I noticed that he had a number of them to sell. Spread out over a few days. I would bid on one and someone would outbid me. I'd bid on another and someone would outbid me. I finally just said forget it, this is getting ridiculous. :-) Jim Webster > I've been following the E-bay auctions for SCSI drives closely in the > past month or two, and what's *really* amazing is that sometimes there'll > be 4 identical items, all from the same seller, all closing within minutes > of each other, and in one auction the drive is bid up to $180.00 and in an > another auctions the cost settles around $60-$70. From rkaplan at accsys-corp.com Sun Oct 17 19:27:10 1999 From: rkaplan at accsys-corp.com (Randy Kaplan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: EBaying; howling after an auction References: Message-ID: <380A695E.D95AC967@accsys-corp.com> Probably this is the best advice of all. It si the only way to deal with those that snipe. Randy Mike Ford wrote: > >About a week ago I put a bid on a Micro PDP-11/23 on ebay. I was top > >bidder until the end. Of course the end was when I was asleep (3 AM) > > The bidding doesn't start until the end on most items. I prefer not to bid > at all until the end so I don't "show my hand" on higher priced items. > Either bid at the end, and I mean well within the last minute if not the > last 10 seconds or so, or bid the full amount you are willing to pay for > the item. -- Dr. Randy M. Kaplan publisher, knowldgWORKS News Subscribe at: knowldgWORKSNews-on@lists.webvalence.com Visit: www.accsys-corp.com From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Oct 17 19:37:57 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: EBaying; howling after an auction Message-ID: <991017203757.23600475@trailing-edge.com> >I've seen this, too. On one particular item that I wanted, >in viewing the "View Sellers Other Auctions", I noticed that >he had a number of them to sell. Spread out over a few days. >I would bid on one and someone would outbid me. I'd bid on >another and someone would outbid me. I finally just said forget >it, this is getting ridiculous. :-) Certainly, E-bay does provides tools for many "commodity" type items to compare one sale with past ones, so you know what a reasonable bid is. There are evidently folks who don't know how to use this, and it doesn't really bother me, I just feel kind-of-sorry for them. Other E-bay phenomena: 1. Items (like HP C3010 2 Gbyte SCSI drives) that have been flooding the surplus market. These are available from liquidators like www.hitechcafe.com and www.compgeeks.com for $30-$35-$40, but I've seen them bid up into the $50-$60 range on E-bay very regularly. Same thing often happens for surplus PC-clone mainboards. 2. What really amazes me is when a seller makes a reserve price auction, very plainly states the reserve price in the item description, and there are literally dozens of bids made *below* the stated reserve price. What the ???. Either the bidders think this is entirely a "bidding game", where the objective is to outbid the other guy with no real intention to buy, or they don't read the description at all, or they haven't a clue period. Tim. From jwebste3 at bellsouth.net Sun Oct 17 21:00:13 1999 From: jwebste3 at bellsouth.net (JAMES WEBSTER) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: EBaying; howling after an auction References: <991017203757.23600475@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <380A7F2D.7090@bellsouth.net> Tim, I actually got spoofed on this once, thinking that I had won the auction by being the highest bidder. I probably didn't notice the "Reserved" because the bidder failed to state or set up a minimum bid amount of what it was. Onced learned, I guess. Jim Webster > Other E-bay phenomena: > > 2. What really amazes me is when a seller makes a reserve price auction, > very plainly states the reserve price in the item description, and > there are literally dozens of bids made *below* the stated reserve > price. What the ???. Either the bidders think this is entirely a > "bidding game", where the objective is to outbid the other guy with > no real intention to buy, or they don't read the description at all, or they > haven't a clue period. > > Tim. From thompson at mail.athenet.net Sun Oct 17 19:54:45 1999 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: EBaying; howling after an auction In-Reply-To: <991017195202.23600475@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Oct 1999 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > I've been following the E-bay auctions for SCSI drives closely in the > past month or two, and what's *really* amazing is that sometimes there'll > be 4 identical items, all from the same seller, all closing within minutes > of each other, and in one auction the drive is bid up to $180.00 and in an > another auctions the cost settles around $60-$70. That is one aspect of Ebay that I don't understand -- that some sellers will put multiple identical items up at the same time potentially keeping their bid prices down by preventing a war between two anxious prospective buyers over one item. It seems to make sense to put a large number of different items out at once instead. That is one reason that I don't worry too much if I see an item that I want and I get out bid. The smart sellers with several such items will put them out one at a time and I know I just need to check back the next week to find his/her next item. I tend to collect things on ebay which are useful with my classic machines; bootable CDROM drive, tape unit and 1 GB SCSI drives for my VS3100M76 & RS6000 220 and DSSI drives for my 5400. They doesn't seem to be an indordinate shortage of these items to escalate prices unreasonably. paul From jpl15 at netcom.com Sun Oct 17 19:57:38 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: My Biggest eBay gripe.. Message-ID: My main concern with the eBay auction algorithm is that it is time-limited, rather than bid-limited.... the aution closes after a fixed span **no matter what the bidding activity is**. 'Normal' auctions close when **no further bids are recieved** in an agreed-upon span. I have bought and sold hundreds of thousands of dollars' worth of aerospace and industrial surplus at auctions large and small, sealed-bid and open-floor, honestly run and 'otherwise'. The reason I dislike the eBay model is that the item most often goes to the fastest/luckiest bidder (sniper)... and that's totally wacked, IMHO. I am not going to join the "capitalism vs. overvaluation" debate. I'm a captialist *and* a collector... that's internal conflict enough. I wonder how much tweaking would be involved on the part of eBay's logicians to convert it over to the more familiar "going, going, gone!" type of format. What do You All think?? Cheers John From daniel at internet.look.ca Sun Oct 17 19:57:37 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: EBaying; howling after an auction Message-ID: <001701bf1903$c5bf2d20$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, October 17, 1999 8:38 PM Subject: Re: EBaying; howling after an auction >>I've seen this, too. On one particular item that I wanted, >>in viewing the "View Sellers Other Auctions", I noticed that >>he had a number of them to sell. Spread out over a few days. >>I would bid on one and someone would outbid me. I'd bid on >>another and someone would outbid me. I finally just said forget >>it, this is getting ridiculous. :-) > >Certainly, E-bay does provides tools for many "commodity" type items >to compare one sale with past ones, so you know what a reasonable bid >is. There are evidently folks who don't know how to use this, and >it doesn't really bother me, I just feel kind-of-sorry for them. > >Other E-bay phenomena: > >1. Items (like HP C3010 2 Gbyte SCSI drives) that have been >flooding the surplus market. These are available from liquidators >like www.hitechcafe.com and www.compgeeks.com for $30-$35-$40, but >I've seen them bid up into the $50-$60 range on E-bay very regularly. >Same thing often happens for surplus PC-clone mainboards. > >2. What really amazes me is when a seller makes a reserve price auction, >very plainly states the reserve price in the item description, and >there are literally dozens of bids made *below* the stated reserve >price. What the ???. Either the bidders think this is entirely a >"bidding game", where the objective is to outbid the other guy with >no real intention to buy, or they don't read the description at all, or they >haven't a clue period. > Easy, to track the auction and get an email with the info about the auction (for future reference). Auction programs help you when you have a bid in. >Tim. > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 17 18:55:11 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: DEC boards unearthed - I have some info In-Reply-To: <002701bf18e3$fb128140$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> from "daniel" at Oct 17, 99 05:10:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1527 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991018/27b47757/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 17 19:02:10 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: Outbid In-Reply-To: <19991017213338Z433233-17223+148@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> from "Mark Green" at Oct 17, 99 03:33:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 945 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991018/53379e25/attachment.ksh From daniel at internet.look.ca Sun Oct 17 20:00:53 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: My Biggest eBay gripe.. Message-ID: <001c01bf1904$3b0af280$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> -----Original Message----- From: John Lawson To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, October 17, 1999 8:57 PM Subject: My Biggest eBay gripe.. > > > My main concern with the eBay auction algorithm is that it is >time-limited, rather than bid-limited.... the aution closes after a >fixed span **no matter what the bidding activity is**. > > 'Normal' auctions close when **no further bids are recieved** in an >agreed-upon span. > > I have bought and sold hundreds of thousands of dollars' worth of >aerospace and industrial surplus at auctions large and small, >sealed-bid and open-floor, honestly run and 'otherwise'. The reason >I dislike the eBay model is that the item most often goes to the >fastest/luckiest bidder (sniper)... and that's totally wacked, IMHO. > > I am not going to join the "capitalism vs. overvaluation" debate. >I'm a captialist *and* a collector... that's internal conflict >enough. > > I wonder how much tweaking would be involved on the part of eBay's >logicians to convert it over to the more familiar "going, going, >gone!" type of format. > > What do You All think?? > I emailed EBay asking them to extend an auction by 10 minutes every time a bid comes in close to the closing (within the last 10 minutes) . No response yet... I love the snipering though.. have gotten many great deals because people won't bid what they are willing to pay if they think no one else will bid. > Cheers > >John > > > From daniel at internet.look.ca Sun Oct 17 20:06:35 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: DEC boards unearthed - I have some info Message-ID: <002301bf1905$06f03680$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, October 17, 1999 9:01 PM Subject: Re: DEC boards unearthed - I have some info >> >There are at least 3 different backplanes, but the 11/05 and 11/10 can >> >use any of them. The 11/05 and 11/10 are really the same machine -- the >> >differences seem to be what was included when the machine was originally >> >shipped. >> > >> >The first backplane goes in the 5.25" box. The CPU cards go at the bottom >> >(in slots 8 and 9). >> >> No, CPU goes in slots 2&3, the maintenance board goes in slot 1. > >I was absolutely certain the CPU went in slots 8 and 9 in the 5.25" box, >so I've got the printset out. I was right about the CPU, but wrong about >Unibus out (which comes from slot 2 or 3 depending on the version, >because as you said, the KM11 goes in slot 1 _or 2_) . Here's the 'module >utilization' : > >8K version >Slot 1 A-B : not used, C-F : SPC >Slot 2 A : KM11, B : KM11, C-F : SPC >Slot 3 A-B : Unibus Out (or M930 terminator), C-F : SPC >Slot 4 A-B : not used, C-F : SPC >Slot 5 A-B : M930 (terminator) C-F : H213 or H214 core stack >Slot 6 : G231 Memory Driver >Slot 7 : G110 Control/Data loops >Slot 8 : M7261 Control logic and microprogram (CPU control) >SLot 9 : M7260 Data Paths (CPU Data) > >16K version >Slot 1 A : KM11, B : KM11, C-F : SPC >Slot 2 A-B : Unibus Out (or M930 termiator), C-F : H213 or H214 core stack >Slot 3 : G231 Memory Driver >Slot 4 : G110 Control/Data loops >Slot 5 A-B : M930 (terminator) C-F : H213 or H214 core stack >Slot 6 : G231 Memory Driver >Slot 7 : G110 Control/Data loops >Slot 8 : M7261 Control logic and microprogram (CPU control) >SLot 9 : M7260 Data Paths (CPU Data) > > You don't have all the prints then. I have prints outlineing your two +: Module Utilization: Slot 9: M930 /Stack Slot 8: G231 Slot 7: G110 Slot 6: G231 Slot 5: G110 Slot 4: M930 / Stack Slot 3: M7261 Slot 2: M7260 Slot 1: Bf11 / M9970 / Km11A / KM11B (16k) I have 3 different print sets as the company I got all this equipment from was an inital beta test site for the 11/05. > >-tony > From jlewczyk at his.com Sun Oct 17 20:53:47 1999 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: Help! ID this Xerox mouse Message-ID: <003401bf190b$9dc9dc90$013da8c0@Corellian> I have recently come into posession of what certainly appears to be a Xerox mouse and I am wondering if you can help be identify it, that is, what machine it was used on. It has no markings on the case, cable or connector. It has the same appearance as one used on the Alto with three grey buttons, beige case, exactly like the the one pictured here. http://www.newmedianews.com/pictures/1998/10/09/th_alto/3.jpg However, it is an optical mouse, unlike the "rolling ball bearing" mouse described in the Byte magazine article in Sept 1981 here. http://www.byte.com/art/9609/sec4/art3.htm It has a black cable, not too long, about 28", terminated in a grey db-9, not molded, but hand assembled. Here are two pictures of it, taken with my scanner. http://www.his.com/~jlewczyk/MyXeroxMouse.jpg (123K) http://www.his.com/~jlewczyk/MyXeroxMouseBottom.jpg (60K) Thanks in advance for any help you can give me. I'd love to verify if it works! Are pin-outs available for it? John jlewczyk@his.com From jlewczyk at his.com Sun Oct 17 21:03:23 1999 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: Wanted: Mac 128K/512K schematics and service manuals Message-ID: <003501bf190c$f540cd70$013da8c0@Corellian> I've recently acquired one 128K and one 512K Macintosh and am looking for technical documentation on it (schematics, logic diagrams of pc boards). I thought that it would be easy to find on the web, but I've had no luck after more than a week of searching. Any help with schematics or service manuals would be appreciated. I've found some pdf files that have some rudimentary diagnostic procedures: "if the logic board is bad, replace it" "if the floppy drive is bad, replace it". The 128K's floppy isn't working, even after cleaning the coagulated lubricant and I am trying to diagnose the problem. Thanks! John jlewczyk@his.com From Marion.Bates at Dartmouth.EDU Sun Oct 17 21:15:33 1999 From: Marion.Bates at Dartmouth.EDU (Marion Bates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: Wanted: Mac 128K/512K schematics and service manuals Message-ID: <23357551@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Hi, You might've already tried this, but on Apple's site you can search the Tech Info Library Archives for older product info: http://til.info.apple.com/tilarchive.nsf/Web+Search+Simple If you do a search for Macintosh AND 128k it turns up a bunch of articles, some with fairly technical info (pinouts and such). Good luck, -- MB --- "John Lewczyk" wrote: I've recently acquired one 128K and one 512K Macintosh and am looking for technical documentation on it (schematics, logic diagrams of pc boards). I thought that it would be easy to find on the web, but I've had no luck after more than a week of searching. Any help with schematics or service manuals would be appreciated. I've found some pdf files that have some rudimentary diagnostic procedures: "if the logic board is bad, replace it" "if the floppy drive is bad, replace it". The 128K's floppy isn't working, even after cleaning the coagulated lubricant and I am trying to diagnose the problem. Thanks! John jlewczyk@his.com --- end of quote --- From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Sun Oct 17 21:20:25 1999 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: Outbid In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Oct 18, 1999 01:02:10 am" Message-ID: <19991018022031Z433271-17223+184@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > > 2) I use these systems to host vintage graphics displays. I > > have an E&S PS390 arriving this week, and I need a host > > for it. I don't intend to leave it in a corner as part > > of a "collection", I intend to have it up and running. > > Hmmm... IIRC the PS390 is a pretty powerful machine in its own right -- > there's a 680x0 (68020?) in there and a lot of bit-slice and ASICs. It > also has its own local mass storage (although this might be only floppy > drives). I wonder if it can run 'standalone'? It appears to be a very > impressive display system... The PS300 series was an interesting piece of hardware. The last gasp for vector displays. It stored its display list locally, and all the graphics processing was done locally. There is the possibility to run applications locally, but most were connected to host computers. This was the way they were intended to operate. > > I've never heard of one being hosted on a PDP11, but I don't see why it > would be impossible. There were systems disks for DECnet or TCP/IP comms > I think, using Ethernet or (presumably) an RS232 port (ethernet was an > option I believe). From dann at greycat.com Sun Oct 17 21:52:25 1999 From: dann at greycat.com (Dann Lunsford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: DesqView/X v2.0 Disk needed.... Message-ID: <380A8B69.FAE6781@greycat.com> All right, I guess it's not under the 10-year rule, but I'm desparate, and this audience is the most likely to understand... I have an old Toshiba T3200SXC portable. It's the only DOS based machine I have left, and the only one, therefore, that will run my prom-burner software (Don't ask...) and some essential DOS based utilities. I had it hooked to my network and did things such as burn "BIOS" EPROMs for my VS3100's. The networking depended on some of the capabilities of DESQVIEW/X. Recently I *really* (&(*$^*%$ up, and managed to blow up my setup on that machine. Rebuilt everything, went to load DV/X and .... got an unrecoverable read error on my only copy of Disk #2. Aborts the install completely. In the midst of my preparations for hara-kiri, it came to me: Maybe someone out there had a copy of DV/X who would be willing to send me what's on Disk #2, or at the least, the bad file. The file is one of the compressed files, MERGECFG.EX_. The version of DV/X I'm using is 2.00. Quarterdeck/Symantec is no use; they don't even mention DV on their web page. As I said, I'm desparate, and again apologize for the (possibly) OT stuff. If you have v2 of DV/X around somewhere, or know where I can get that file, let me know. If you've got a full copy of DV/X you're willing to sell, and the disks are still readable (:-)), let me know that, too. Thanks! Dann Lunsford From at258 at osfn.org Sun Oct 17 22:01:35 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: Wanted: MOSTEK 387x Manual In-Reply-To: <381f60cc.936321378@insight> Message-ID: I remember there used to be an item called Nilodor that killed odors, rather well. Especially effective with animal urines. Made in Canada, I think. On Sun, 17 Oct 1999, Bill Richman wrote: > I'm looking for a Mostek 3870 Databook from 1981 (I've got an older one; for > that matter I've got the 1981 version too, but it ended up getting peed on > by rodents in the basement of my old house while we were moving... *sigh I > hope that wasn't some kind of mouse social comment; they didn't touch the > Zilog Z-80 manual or the Intel 8086 book right next to it.) I've got a > bunch of the 3874's & 3876's with EPROM sockets on the back; we've used > several in personal projects. That book was extremely useful, but now it's > not something I want to get close to; it's sealed in a plastic bag in case > we come up with a way to deodorize it but... *thud. Any help would be > appreciated! :-) (Wonder what happens if you bake a book in a kiln or > something at 250-300 degrees for a few hours? Would that take the smell > out? It's not sticky - just *stinky*.) > > > > -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) > http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r - Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer > Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities. > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 17 21:53:35 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: DEC boards unearthed - I have some info In-Reply-To: <002301bf1905$06f03680$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> from "daniel" at Oct 17, 99 09:06:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 453 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991018/fec491d6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 17 21:58:55 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: Outbid In-Reply-To: <19991018022031Z433271-17223+184@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> from "Mark Green" at Oct 17, 99 08:20:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2356 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991018/2e0de33b/attachment.ksh From daniel at internet.look.ca Sun Oct 17 22:12:38 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: DEC boards unearthed - I have some info Message-ID: <00f701bf1916$a2a720a0$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> Yes, it is. It was called the 11/05 in 72 but later docs called it the 11/10. Anyway, do you have an 11/05 running and do you have any PDP 8s you collect? I am trying to find blank backplanes for the old flipchip modules (r series) john -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, October 17, 1999 11:08 PM Subject: Re: DEC boards unearthed - I have some info >> You don't have all the prints then. I have prints outlineing your two +: >> >> >> Module Utilization: >> >> Slot 9: M930 /Stack >> Slot 8: G231 >> Slot 7: G110 >> Slot 6: G231 >> Slot 5: G110 >> Slot 4: M930 / Stack >> Slot 3: M7261 >> Slot 2: M7260 >> Slot 1: Bf11 / M9970 / Km11A / KM11B >> >> (16k) > >Are you sure that's not the backplane for the 10.5" box (BA11-K)? That >one does have the CPU on the right (and Unibus out on slot 9 on the >left). > >-tony > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 17 22:13:14 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: DEC boards unearthed - I have some info In-Reply-To: <00f701bf1916$a2a720a0$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> from "daniel" at Oct 17, 99 11:12:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1062 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991018/b29eea0f/attachment.ksh From daniel at internet.look.ca Sun Oct 17 22:32:19 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: DEC boards unearthed - I have some info Message-ID: <011b01bf1919$62c94e60$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, October 17, 1999 11:28 PM Subject: Re: DEC boards unearthed - I have some info >> >> Yes, it is. It was called the 11/05 in 72 but later docs called it the >> 11/10. > >Hmm... I've seen 5.25" boxes with both 11/05 and 11/10 nameplates on the >front (no, not on the same machine :-)). I think the only 10.5" one I saw >was an 11/10, but I'd happilly believe in the existance of a 10.5" 11/05 Actually I have one... It says 11/05 on a 10 1/2" box (one of the first knocked out). I will be putting pictures of it up on my website with the 8/s, honeywell, 34,45,73,accuray,etc... > >I tend to regard the 11/05 and 11/10 as the same machine. Same boards, >same boxes, etc. Ditto for the 11/35 and 11/40. Even DEC got fed up with >the dual numbering scheme later on (the 11/39 was going to be the >end-user version of the 11/34, and some early manuals mention it. AFAIK >it never existed. Ditto for the 11/09). > > >> >> Anyway, do you have an 11/05 running and do you have any PDP 8s you collect? > >I've got a working 5.25" 11/05 here. And another one that's much hacked. > >Got a couple of Omnibus 8's.... > >> I am trying to find blank backplanes for the old flipchip modules (r series) > >What's special about them? Don't R series fit any DEC connector blocks? >You said you want them blank, so can't you unwrap some other backplane? > No, I was hoping for one with the usual power strips already attached. I have enough r-series spares to design the intel 4004 with flip chips. >-tony > From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Sun Oct 17 22:35:56 1999 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: PS 390 (was OutBid) In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Oct 18, 1999 03:58:55 am" Message-ID: <19991018033605Z433278-17224+174@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> I changed the subject line to something more relevant to the line of discussion. > > > > > > 2) I use these systems to host vintage graphics displays. I > > > > have an E&S PS390 arriving this week, and I need a host > > > > for it. I don't intend to leave it in a corner as part > > > > of a "collection", I intend to have it up and running. > > > > > > Hmmm... IIRC the PS390 is a pretty powerful machine in its own right -- > > > there's a 680x0 (68020?) in there and a lot of bit-slice and ASICs. It > > > also has its own local mass storage (although this might be only floppy > > > drives). I wonder if it can run 'standalone'? It appears to be a very > > > impressive display system... > > > > The PS300 series was an interesting piece of hardware. The last > > gasp for vector displays. It stored its display list locally, > > I hate to tell you this, but the PS390 is a _raster_ display using a > conventional colour monitor (the European ones seem to use a Fimi unit, I > have no idea what was used Stateside). I'm pretty sure the entire PS300 line were vector displays. Here in North America is was definitely advertized as a vector display and they made quite show of the special tube they had produced that allowed them to do colour. I remember playing with one at Pixar around 1986, it didn't have any of the aliasing effects that raster displays of that generation showed. A number of the vector display manufacturers retrofitted their vector displays with raster backends in the 1980s. Megatek was very big on this. They claimed that they could drive both vector and raster displays from the same graphics engine. Maybe E&S did the same thing. The people who had used this display claimed it was vector, and they know their graphics displays. I'll check it out when it arrives. The PS 300 line was the end of the line for E&S in the off the shelf high-end graphics market. SGI basically drove them out of the market (I still have one of the original SGI workstations from 1984, but that's in the lab, not at home). > > There's a lot of interesting hardware in the box that attempts to > anti-alias displayed lines (and thus you don't get visible staircasing). > E&S claimed that this was a raster display that looked like a vector one. > > > and all the graphics processing was done locally. There is > > the possibility to run applications locally, but most were > > connected to host computers. This was the way they were intended > > to operate. > > Oh, sure. The local processing wasn't _that_ impressive (although the > built-in programming language looks _strange_), but I suspect they _can_ > be made to run standalone. > Actually not all that strange for that time. There were a number of similar graphics languages, none of them were widely known. There are standalone applications for it. The RS232 connection was slow enough to encourage people to develop standalone apps. Most applications downloaded as much as they could into the PS300, and then just handled interaction and transformation matrices at run-time. This resulted in some very strange systems. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From Glenatacme at aol.com Sun Oct 17 22:38:59 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: TImex SInclair 1000 Manual Message-ID: <0.f59540e3.253bf053@aol.com> In a message dated 10/17/1999 12:06:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, edick@idcomm.com writes: > While digging through a box of "stuff" I have, I found a Timex Sinclair 1000 > manual in used but decent condition and apparently quite complete. Is this > something best placed on eBay, or do you some of you guys have use for it? Actually this is a very common and abundant item. A "perfect" one will typically fetch less than US$10 on Ebay. Glen Goodwin 0/0 From donm at cts.com Sun Oct 17 22:54:00 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: My Biggest eBay gripe.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Oct 1999, John Lawson wrote: > > > My main concern with the eBay auction algorithm is that it is > time-limited, rather than bid-limited.... the aution closes after a > fixed span **no matter what the bidding activity is**. > > 'Normal' auctions close when **no further bids are recieved** in an > agreed-upon span. That is certainly true, but it is also true that all of the bidders are present during all of the bidding process and it is easy for the auctioneer to determine when bidding ceases. Neither of these things is true on e-Bay as there are certainly 'late arrivals' who were not aware of the availability of the item until they logged on and bid, and there is certainly no auctioneer to bring down the gavel. ________O/_______ O\ > I wonder how much tweaking would be involved on the part of eBay's > logicians to convert it over to the more familiar "going, going, > gone!" type of format. Plenty! > What do You All think?? Now you know :) - don > Cheers > > John > > > > From marvin at rain.org Sun Oct 17 23:56:30 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: EBaying; howling after an auction References: <9910171754030U.08423@vault.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <380AA87E.DE8D3528@rain.org> Dave McGuire wrote: > > Ahh, the time-honored practice of "sniping". Yes, it works rather > well...some people scream about it, but the fact remains that it's the best way > to get what you want on eBay. People seem to forget that what makes it "fair" > is that it goes both ways. Snipers get sniped as often as non-snipers. > > If you're bidding on something that you really want, be prepared to be awake > and in front of your machine when the auction ends. Everyone learns this after > a while. Sniping is the art of ignorance on the value of something. Putting in an early bid is IMHO not a wise idea since there is always someone pushing just to see if they might get it. The wise bidder bids their maximum bid at the latest possible time. FWIW, sniping can be compared to a sealed bid. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 18 01:31:23 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: EBaying; howling after an auction References: <991017195202.23600475@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <99101802361000.10662@vault.neurotica.com> On Sun, 17 Oct 1999, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: >I personally don't understand "sniping" at all - it isn't necessary. >Set your maximum bid what you're willing to pay. If someone else outbids >you, you didn't "lose" - "losing" is when you pay more than you're willing, >not when someone outbids you! I dunno, man. For me, a "win" on eBay is quite simply this: I got something that I would have a hard time getting otherwise, or paid less than I would ordinarily have to pay. "What I'm willing to pay" isn't always a set amount. If, at the beginning of an auction, I decide "I'm not going to pay more than ten bucks for this!", then if I allow myself to be outbid by a buck or two, I didn't really want said item anyway, right? It's very much a matter of "should I let this go, there'll be another one" and "can/should I wait for another one to come up". -Dave McGuire From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 18 01:36:27 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: EBaying; howling after an auction References: <991017203757.23600475@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <99101802394701.10662@vault.neurotica.com> On Sun, 17 Oct 1999, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: >2. What really amazes me is when a seller makes a reserve price auction, >very plainly states the reserve price in the item description, and >there are literally dozens of bids made *below* the stated reserve >price. What the ???. Either the bidders think this is entirely a >"bidding game", where the objective is to outbid the other guy with >no real intention to buy, or they don't read the description at all, or they >haven't a clue period. Simple. Often a seller is willing to sell something at below his or her stated reserve price. For example, this happened to me just two days ago. There was an item whose opening bid was $1000. Someone bid the opening amount, but the reserve wasn't yet met. The amount sat at $1000. Near the end of the auction (with the amount still at $1000) I bid $1500. That was still below the reserve, so the bid amount only increased to $1025. The auction ended without having met the reserve. I opened a dialog with the seller and negotiated the purchase of the item at $1500. His reserve was $2000. So it seems it's a matter of sellers being wishy-washy about their reserves and not sticking to them. -Dave McGuire From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 18 01:40:01 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: My Biggest eBay gripe.. References: Message-ID: <99101802405302.10662@vault.neurotica.com> On Sun, 17 Oct 1999, John Lawson wrote: > I wonder how much tweaking would be involved on the part of eBay's >logicians to convert it over to the more familiar "going, going, >gone!" type of format. > > What do You All think?? I think that'd push prices much, much higher. -Dave McGuire From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 18 01:46:10 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: EBaying; howling after an auction References: <380AA87E.DE8D3528@rain.org> Message-ID: <99101802480304.10662@vault.neurotica.com> On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Marvin wrote: >> Ahh, the time-honored practice of "sniping". Yes, it works rather >> well...some people scream about it, but the fact remains that it's the best way >> to get what you want on eBay. People seem to forget that what makes it "fair" >> is that it goes both ways. Snipers get sniped as often as non-snipers. >> >> If you're bidding on something that you really want, be prepared to be awake >> and in front of your machine when the auction ends. Everyone learns this after >> a while. > >Sniping is the art of ignorance on the value of something. Huh? No, man. Sniping is a means to an end. Nothing more, nothing less. Not entirely "nice", not entirely what the eBay designers had in mind, but extremely effective. > Putting in an >early bid is IMHO not a wise idea since there is always someone pushing just >to see if they might get it. The wise bidder bids their maximum bid at the >latest possible time. FWIW, sniping can be compared to a sealed bid. Yes, I do agree. -Dave McGuire From marvin at rain.org Mon Oct 18 01:53:42 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: My Biggest eBay gripe.. References: Message-ID: <380AC3F6.EA0B60F8@rain.org> John Lawson wrote: > > My main concern with the eBay auction algorithm is that it is > time-limited, rather than bid-limited.... the aution closes after a > fixed span **no matter what the bidding activity is**. > > 'Normal' auctions close when **no further bids are recieved** in an > agreed-upon span. You are forgetting the sealed bid auctions. IMNSHO, it would be far better for ebay to add the capability to make sealed bids (and yes, I have suggested that to them.) That would eliminate this inching up just to see where the high bid is prior to closing. Ebays suggestion that you just bid your maximum and wait to see what happens is a good thought. But making that bid early just invites "well, I'll just bid one more dollar to see what happens" and thus driving the price up. Most ebay buyers have educated themselves to know that early bids do not bring the best prices. Hence the popularity of sniping. A combination of sealed and open bidding would most likely work out better than the current mess. From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Oct 18 02:00:45 1999 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: EBaying; howling after an auction In-Reply-To: <99101802480304.10662@vault.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Dave McGuire wrote: > >Sniping is the art of ignorance on the value of something. > > Huh? No, man. Sniping is a means to an end. Nothing more, nothing less. > Not entirely "nice", not entirely what the eBay designers had in mind, but > extremely effective. I'd have to agree with Marvin. You don't bid early on something because you don't want to attract attention to something that might be mis-labeled or poorly described. If other people don't know what it is, and the bidding price stays low, you bid in the last 5 seconds and get it for much less that you would have had a bunch of people been after it. Myself, I go on eBinges. I might spend a couple of days pouring over ads for stuff that I've been looking for for a long time. Sometimes I buy things just to buy them; once I bought an IBM thermal printer for $.25 and paid $5.00 shipping for it. Recently I got an IBM Fortran manual for a buck or so, and the guy just sent it without payment. What else...oh yeah, I picked up a SCSI adapter for an Atari ST for $1.00, because the guy had it listed only as "SCI Adapter"...total fluke, because I myself misspelled "scsi" in the search... I'm certainly no power user of eBay (shallow pockets, too lazy to ship things), but I find that their format drives me to "snipe" things, but I look at it, as Marvin said, as a Sealed Auction way to buy. People who try to be *fair* about bidding there, when their system doesn't cater to the kind of fairness that allows everyone to have their turn to bid until the last call, just end up frustrated and disappointed. My .02, Aaron From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Oct 18 01:40:00 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: EBaying; howling after an auction In-Reply-To: <991017195202.23600475@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: >I personally don't understand "sniping" at all - it isn't necessary. >Set your maximum bid what you're willing to pay. If someone else outbids >you, you didn't "lose" - "losing" is when you pay more than you're willing, >not when someone outbids you! I only am happy to pay a fair price for stuff I really need. I have a MUCH longer list of stuff I want, and that has to come at the lowest bid possible, even if that means I don't get the items some times. Sniping is opportunity bidding, gamesmenship, but still part of the rules. Besides the "game" is to make the best deals you can, buying or selling. Live auctions do for me what pro wrestling does for others. Shopping is nothing like it, and prices are the only real difference. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Oct 18 01:55:20 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: EBaying; howling after an auction In-Reply-To: <991017203757.23600475@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: >>I've seen this, too. On one particular item that I wanted, >>in viewing the "View Sellers Other Auctions", I noticed that >>he had a number of them to sell. Spread out over a few days. >>I would bid on one and someone would outbid me. I'd bid on >>another and someone would outbid me. I finally just said forget >>it, this is getting ridiculous. :-) It may seem odd, but that is just the mechanics of the auction. Lets say I see something I want and I am willing to pay $100 (and I set that as my maximum bid). Ebay then "bids" for me until it reaches my maximum, OR I am the highest bidder. I could be the highest bidder with the bid stopped at 50 cents. You come along and think, wow a widget, I would happily pay $7 for one, but you enter your bid instead at the next bid increment, 75 cents, hoping for a steal. Surprize, ebay immediately bids for me to the next increment, $1. This will continue until somebody tops my maximum bid. >1. Items (like HP C3010 2 Gbyte SCSI drives) that have been >flooding the surplus market. These are available from liquidators >like www.hitechcafe.com and www.compgeeks.com for $30-$35-$40, but >I've seen them bid up into the $50-$60 range on E-bay very regularly. >Same thing often happens for surplus PC-clone mainboards. Some of it is ignorance, people don't know about all the market sources that some of us scroungers do. Another part though is that many people TRUST an eBay transaction to deliver an as described product more than they do web sites. >2. What really amazes me is when a seller makes a reserve price auction, >very plainly states the reserve price in the item description, and >there are literally dozens of bids made *below* the stated reserve >price. What the ???. Either the bidders think this is entirely a Ebay is revising reserve auctions because of this "loophole". Only when the reserve price is met are the buyer and seller obligated to complete the transaction, and only then does eBay collect on the bulk of the transaction fee, the final sales percentage. Too many sellers set reserves that are rarely met, so they pay no final sales fee, but they "let" the buyer have the option of buying at the final bid amount. A lot of sellers really are just hoping with the reserve anyway, and after seeing an active auction that poops out below the reserve decide the final bid wasn't that bad after all. From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Oct 18 02:04:06 1999 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: My Biggest eBay gripe.. In-Reply-To: <380AC3F6.EA0B60F8@rain.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Oct 1999, Marvin wrote: > > > John Lawson wrote: > > > > My main concern with the eBay auction algorithm is that it is > > time-limited, rather than bid-limited.... the aution closes after a > > fixed span **no matter what the bidding activity is**. > > > > 'Normal' auctions close when **no further bids are recieved** in an > > agreed-upon span. > > You are forgetting the sealed bid auctions. IMNSHO, it would be far better > for ebay to add the capability to make sealed bids (and yes, I have > suggested that to them.) That would eliminate this inching up just to see > where the high bid is prior to closing. > > Ebays suggestion that you just bid your maximum and wait to see what happens > is a good thought. But making that bid early just invites "well, I'll just > bid one more dollar to see what happens" and thus driving the price up. Most > ebay buyers have educated themselves to know that early bids do not bring > the best prices. Hence the popularity of sniping. A combination of sealed > and open bidding would most likely work out better than the current mess. Yes, which is really what "sniping" is; a user-created form of sealed bidding. People like me are the reason that bidding the max early is no good. I am a fool with my money, and I don't know when to say "when." I view a dollar as something that won't even buy me a cup of coffee most places, so it's never a big deal to say, "Hmmm...just one more dollar..." to try to top a bid. That's the biggest reason I bid in the final few seconds, to protect me from myself. By the time I can reload the page after I bid, the auction is over and I either won for that amount or lost... Aaron From edick at idcomm.com Mon Oct 18 02:02:24 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: TImex SInclair 1000 Manual Message-ID: <000a01bf1936$bbc8f160$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> I'm not surprised. The Sinclairs were very plentiful back in the days when they were of interest. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Glenatacme@aol.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, October 17, 1999 9:46 PM Subject: Re: TImex SInclair 1000 Manual >In a message dated 10/17/1999 12:06:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >edick@idcomm.com writes: > >> While digging through a box of "stuff" I have, I found a Timex Sinclair >1000 >> manual in used but decent condition and apparently quite complete. Is this >> something best placed on eBay, or do you some of you guys have use for it? > >Actually this is a very common and abundant item. A "perfect" one will >typically fetch less than US$10 on Ebay. > >Glen Goodwin >0/0 From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Oct 18 02:39:42 1999 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:57 2005 Subject: Macintosh Hardware Question Message-ID: Hello, Mac gurus... Can someone tell me whether the IIsi PDS slot is compatible with the PDS slot on the IIfx? I know that the PDS slot in general is fairly different between models, and the IIfx is fairly unique in a hardware context anyway. What I want to do is use a PDS-based video card in a IIfx, and it's a working pull from a IIsi... Barring that, does anyone know if there was ever a 3rd party video card for the PDS slot that is compatible with the IIfx? Cheers, Aaron From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Oct 18 02:45:22 1999 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: OT: Not-classic Hardware Freebie Message-ID: I've got the mainboard and cpu card from an AST Manhattan P5090 server (dual Pentium-90 sockets) that are marked "non-working" with no further details. IIRC, we pulled this from service a couple of years ago and it didn't want to post when we tried to test it sometime after that. If someone wants this, let me know. Otherwise it finds it's way to the round file... From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Oct 18 02:03:41 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: My Biggest eBay gripe.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I wonder how much tweaking would be involved on the part of eBay's >logicians to convert it over to the more familiar "going, going, >gone!" type of format. I would settle for eBay just staying up, then later on they can work on refinements. I and many others have given the issue a LOT of thought, and basically the idea of a "live" finish is EXTREMELY popular among both buyers and sellers. Implementing it is not a small or simple problem, especially within the browser environment which expects the user to ask for updates. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Oct 18 02:25:59 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: Wanted: MOSTEK 387x Manual In-Reply-To: References: <381f60cc.936321378@insight> Message-ID: >I remember there used to be an item called Nilodor that killed odors, >rather well. Especially effective with animal urines. Made in Canada, I >think. >> we come up with a way to deodorize it but... *thud. Any help would be >> appreciated! :-) (Wonder what happens if you bake a book in a kiln or >> something at 250-300 degrees for a few hours? Would that take the smell >> out? It's not sticky - just *stinky*.) Several current products will do the job, from a clothes pin (for your nose) to enzymes that target the odor stuff in urine. Check with local pet stores for the latter. From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Oct 18 03:01:35 1999 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: Wanted: MOSTEK 387x Manual In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There's something for fabrics called "Fabreeze" or something close that works wonders for getting rid of vomit/urine/mold smells. I don't know what it would do to a book, but I've used it on all kinds of fabrics and never had it discolour anything. On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > >I remember there used to be an item called Nilodor that killed odors, > >rather well. Especially effective with animal urines. Made in Canada, I > >think. > > >> we come up with a way to deodorize it but... *thud. Any help would be > >> appreciated! :-) (Wonder what happens if you bake a book in a kiln or > >> something at 250-300 degrees for a few hours? Would that take the smell > >> out? It's not sticky - just *stinky*.) > > Several current products will do the job, from a clothes pin (for your > nose) to enzymes that target the odor stuff in urine. Check with local pet > stores for the latter. > > > From Henk.J.Stegeman at is.shell.com Mon Oct 18 05:38:59 1999 From: Henk.J.Stegeman at is.shell.com (Stegeman, Henk HJ SSI-TSEA-331) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: WANTED: IBM parts. Message-ID: <91F077611570D211B0B40008C7244B330236C544@LDMS6001> Hi, I still believe in miracles... I am looking for a IBM MST-1 card with P/N 5558222. This card was used by IBM Customer Engineer in an IBM System/3 model 15 (IBM 5415). This card was only available at IBM CE Branch Offices and was needed to diagnose any problems in the so-called 'DA 3277/3284 Attachment' and 'LDA (Local Display Attachment)' in the S/3 model 15. Together with the card came a CE Switchbox P/N 5558132 and overlay P/N 5558224. Anyone who might be able to perform a small miracle... ? Thanks. Henk Stegeman IBM Collector. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Oct 18 08:32:52 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: My Biggest eBay gripe.. In-Reply-To: References: <380AC3F6.EA0B60F8@rain.org> Message-ID: <199910181233.OAA22246@horus.mch.sni.de> > On Sun, 17 Oct 1999, Marvin wrote: > > John Lawson wrote: > > > My main concern with the eBay auction algorithm is that it is > > > time-limited, rather than bid-limited.... the aution closes after a > > > fixed span **no matter what the bidding activity is**. > > > 'Normal' auctions close when **no further bids are recieved** in an > > > agreed-upon span. > > You are forgetting the sealed bid auctions. IMNSHO, it would be far better > > for ebay to add the capability to make sealed bids (and yes, I have > > suggested that to them.) That would eliminate this inching up just to see > > where the high bid is prior to closing. > > Ebays suggestion that you just bid your maximum and wait to see what happens > > is a good thought. But making that bid early just invites "well, I'll just > > bid one more dollar to see what happens" and thus driving the price up. Most > > ebay buyers have educated themselves to know that early bids do not bring > > the best prices. Hence the popularity of sniping. A combination of sealed > > and open bidding would most likely work out better than the current mess. > Yes, which is really what "sniping" is; a user-created form of sealed > bidding. Come on - that would be if you where just allowed to enter one bid. > People like me are the reason that bidding the max early is no good. I am > a fool with my money, and I don't know when to say "when." I view a dollar > as something that won't even buy me a cup of coffee most places, so it's > never a big deal to say, "Hmmm...just one more dollar..." to try to top a > bid. That's the biggest reason I bid in the final few seconds, to protect > me from myself. By the time I can reload the page after I bid, the auction > is over and I either won for that amount or lost... In fact, the eBay scheme comes from an overidealistic view of their users - if all are well defined ethical beeings beting ... ah bidding acording to the idealistic rules, everything would work fine - just, people are not like that. And by insisting that their rules are the one and only way, the eBay guys are just as stubborn as all idiologic kind. So my solution would be in offering different auction styles, giving the seller the freedom of choice what kind of auction he likes: - classic eBay with fixed end date - seald bid, you are allowed _one_ bid, the amount is secret until the final time _and_ the named amount is the amount to go for (!) - time driven - every last bid extends the closing time by 60 Minutes (to allow slow line / bussy people to place a new bid) Well, the sealed bid could be modified to a seled bid light, where the mechanics of the classic eBay scheme is used, which results into paying only the next step after the second highest bid (unlikely that a seller will select that if he has a choice between both). Also the time driven may be enhanced with a final date (unknown to public) to ensure that there is no endless auction. Anyway, I don't think we will see such a variety on eBay - Giving fredom of coice isn't everybodys thing... Gruss H. BTW: this issue even arosed in the new 'eBay' Magazine... No joke, there is a news stand magazine about eBay (and similar stuff), licencing their name! -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Oct 18 08:07:13 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: How to reach more classic computer users? In-Reply-To: <991016100341.2360039b@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991018080713.01188ec0@vpwisfirewall> At 10:03 AM 10/16/99 -0400, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: >While trying to figure out how to reach more PDP-11 users with my >freeware archives > http://www.trailing-edge.com/www/freeware.html > for information about the PDP-11 freeware CD's and FTP sites with > PDP-11 freeware) Place routine, fixed-price auctions on eBay and other auction sites to sell your CD. Include links to your home page and a description of what you do within the HTML of the auction description. Improving your page's rating in the search engines might help, too. Send out a press release to the DEC-related magazines, collector magazines, Dr. Dobbs, programmer magazines, etc. Is there a Classic Computer Collector web ring? I, too, have noticed that the search engines have gotten very far behind in indexing new pages. I've submitted pages and they've simply never showed up, and even the submission pages warn that it may be *months* before they index your page. What good is that? Plenty of irrelevant spam pages seem to be there, no doubt in a never-ending cat-and-mouse game. We can only guess at the rules for rejecting pages. - John From steverob at hotoffice.com Mon Oct 18 04:35:00 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: Quake/Hurricane? Message-ID: <01BF194C.0C61FB20.steverob@hotoffice.com> > >So where was this quake for us less informed types? > > > >--Chuck > > A 7.0 about 30 miles N of Joshua Tree (that is, about 90 miles > ENE of downtown LA). See > Natural disasters are not unique to the left coast. This weekend, Huricane Irene visited South Florida and endangered some of my collection. Although there was very wind damage, there is a trememdous amount of rain associated with the storm. I got about 6" of water in my garage but was able to get almost everything off the floor before the flooding began. Luckly I was home when it started getting deep. Steve Robertson - From daniel at internet.look.ca Mon Oct 18 09:18:01 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: I EBay snipered these PDP extenders last night. Did anyone else see them? Message-ID: <003001bf1973$969a6ee0$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> I got two quad (looks to be originals for the 11) PDP extender cards for $21.50! I had to get up at 1 in the morning to nail it. If the spacing is the same on either side of the middle "slot" then I guess I just have to cut them down the middle for the PDP 8? Sorry "flipchip". http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=179610883 The guy had it listed under "Photo Electronics" with no PDP nor Digital in the subject/description. john -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Christopher Finney To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, October 18, 1999 3:03 AM Subject: Re: EBaying; howling after an auction > > >On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> >Sniping is the art of ignorance on the value of something. >> >> Huh? No, man. Sniping is a means to an end. Nothing more, nothing less. >> Not entirely "nice", not entirely what the eBay designers had in mind, but >> extremely effective. > >I'd have to agree with Marvin. You don't bid early on something because >you don't want to attract attention to something that might be mis-labeled >or poorly described. If other people don't know what it is, and the >bidding price stays low, you bid in the last 5 seconds and get it for much >less that you would have had a bunch of people been after it. > >Myself, I go on eBinges. I might spend a couple of days pouring over ads >for stuff that I've been looking for for a long time. Sometimes I buy >things just to buy them; once I bought an IBM thermal printer for $.25 and >paid $5.00 shipping for it. Recently I got an IBM Fortran manual for a >buck or so, and the guy just sent it without payment. What else...oh yeah, >I picked up a SCSI adapter for an Atari ST for $1.00, because the guy had >it listed only as "SCI Adapter"...total fluke, because I myself misspelled >"scsi" in the search... > >I'm certainly no power user of eBay (shallow pockets, too lazy to ship >things), but I find that their format drives me to "snipe" things, but I >look at it, as Marvin said, as a Sealed Auction way to buy. People who try >to be *fair* about bidding there, when their system doesn't cater to the >kind of fairness that allows everyone to have their turn to bid until >the last call, just end up frustrated and disappointed. > >My .02, > > >Aaron > > > From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Oct 18 09:32:01 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: I EBay snipered these PDP extenders last night. Did anyone else see them? Message-ID: <19991018143201.21547.rocketmail@ web605.yahoomail.com> --- daniel wrote: > I got two quad (looks to be originals for the 11) PDP extender cards for > $21.50! I had to get up at 1 in the morning to nail it. If the spacing is > the same on either side of the middle "slot" then I guess I just have to cut > them down the middle for the PDP 8? Sorry "flipchip". You don't need to cut them... just pull four cards and extend all of them together. At these speeds, the extra length isn't going to kill you. Quad is quad. They can also be used for OMNIBUS cards as well as Qbus/UNIBUS cards. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From steverob at hotoffice.com Mon Oct 18 05:31:43 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: Programming the Z-80 Message-ID: <01BF1953.F9474240.steverob@hotoffice.com> Anyone have pointers to good Z-80 Assembly language programming resources on the net? What books would you recommend for advanced programming topics? TIA, Steve Robertson - From marvin at rain.org Mon Oct 18 09:44:22 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: My Biggest eBay gripe.. References: Message-ID: <380B3246.8E44894B@rain.org> Mike Ford wrote: > > I and many others have given the issue a LOT of thought, and basically the > idea of a "live" finish is EXTREMELY popular among both buyers and sellers. > Implementing it is not a small or simple problem, especially within the > browser environment which expects the user to ask for updates. A live finish is not even slightly a good idea for online auctions. The whole idea is to not have to be attending your bid at the time the auction closes. I am not sure your "EXTREMELY" popular statement is true for the whole of ebay. It may be true for the minority who visit the message boards. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Oct 18 09:47:29 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: Programming the Z-80 Message-ID: <991018104729.236004ef@trailing-edge.com> >Anyone have pointers to good Z-80 Assembly language programming >resources on the net? Any of the CP/M archives will be filled with more Z-80 and 8080 assembly source than you'll know what to do with. For starters, try http://oak.oakland.edu/pub/cpm/ >What books would you recommend for advanced programming topics? If I remember correctly, Rodney Zaks had a book titled "Programming the Z-80" in his lineup. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From edick at idcomm.com Mon Oct 18 10:17:08 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: Programming the Z-80 Message-ID: <000d01bf197b$d87e7060$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> The various CP/M resources out there not only have Z-80 code and development resources, but 8080 and 8085 code as well. Be careful you don't try to run some 8085 code. Most of the code is 8080, since that's the common denominator, but many of these sites even have 8085-family support and the housekeeping isn't always perfect. The Rodnay Zaks book is one of a few Z-80 books written just for Z-80 coding. It was a disappointment to me, but it is not half bad. Check your local library. They often have these things sitting on the shelves in considerable (unused) quantity. Dick -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, October 18, 1999 8:59 AM Subject: RE: Programming the Z-80 >>Anyone have pointers to good Z-80 Assembly language programming >>resources on the net? > >Any of the CP/M archives will be filled with more Z-80 and 8080 >assembly source than you'll know what to do with. For starters, >try > > http://oak.oakland.edu/pub/cpm/ > >>What books would you recommend for advanced programming topics? > >If I remember correctly, Rodney Zaks had a book titled "Programming >the Z-80" in his lineup. > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From edick at idcomm.com Mon Oct 18 10:30:01 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: My Biggest eBay gripe.. Message-ID: <001a01bf197d$a5617fe0$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> The eBay folks are making money, and that's what they set out to do. It's to their advantage to get the highest bids because they get a cut. Sealed bids don't necessarily get that, because, though they tap into the insecurity a bidder may have about what an item will bring, they don't tap into the last-minute feeding frenzy which often drives prices up. If you set up your bid so you enter your highest bid right away, but let the system make minimum incremental bids automatically each time someone overbids you, that's essentially the best of both worlds for the buyer. He can pay less than, but not more than, what is essentially a sealed bid. He is allowed to continue bidding after his maximum is reached, but the system won't do it automatically. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, October 18, 1999 6:41 AM Subject: Re: My Biggest eBay gripe.. >> On Sun, 17 Oct 1999, Marvin wrote: >> > John Lawson wrote: >> > > My main concern with the eBay auction algorithm is that it is >> > > time-limited, rather than bid-limited.... the aution closes after a >> > > fixed span **no matter what the bidding activity is**. >> > > 'Normal' auctions close when **no further bids are recieved** in an >> > > agreed-upon span. > >> > You are forgetting the sealed bid auctions. IMNSHO, it would be far better >> > for ebay to add the capability to make sealed bids (and yes, I have >> > suggested that to them.) That would eliminate this inching up just to see >> > where the high bid is prior to closing. > >> > Ebays suggestion that you just bid your maximum and wait to see what happens >> > is a good thought. But making that bid early just invites "well, I'll just >> > bid one more dollar to see what happens" and thus driving the price up. Most >> > ebay buyers have educated themselves to know that early bids do not bring >> > the best prices. Hence the popularity of sniping. A combination of sealed >> > and open bidding would most likely work out better than the current mess. > >> Yes, which is really what "sniping" is; a user-created form of sealed >> bidding. > >Come on - that would be if you where just allowed to enter one bid. > >> People like me are the reason that bidding the max early is no good. I am >> a fool with my money, and I don't know when to say "when." I view a dollar >> as something that won't even buy me a cup of coffee most places, so it's >> never a big deal to say, "Hmmm...just one more dollar..." to try to top a >> bid. That's the biggest reason I bid in the final few seconds, to protect >> me from myself. By the time I can reload the page after I bid, the auction >> is over and I either won for that amount or lost... > >In fact, the eBay scheme comes from an overidealistic view of >their users - if all are well defined ethical beeings beting >... ah bidding acording to the idealistic rules, everything >would work fine - just, people are not like that. And by >insisting that their rules are the one and only way, the eBay >guys are just as stubborn as all idiologic kind. > >So my solution would be in offering different auction styles, >giving the seller the freedom of choice what kind of auction >he likes: > >- classic eBay with fixed end date >- seald bid, you are allowed _one_ bid, the amount is secret > until the final time _and_ the named amount is the amount > to go for (!) >- time driven - every last bid extends the closing time by > 60 Minutes (to allow slow line / bussy people to place a > new bid) > >Well, the sealed bid could be modified to a seled bid light, >where the mechanics of the classic eBay scheme is used, which >results into paying only the next step after the second highest >bid (unlikely that a seller will select that if he has a choice >between both). > >Also the time driven may be enhanced with a final date (unknown >to public) to ensure that there is no endless auction. > >Anyway, I don't think we will see such a variety on eBay - Giving >fredom of coice isn't everybodys thing... > >Gruss >H. > > >BTW: this issue even arosed in the new 'eBay' Magazine... No joke, > there is a news stand magazine about eBay (and similar stuff), > licencing their name! > > >-- >Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Oct 18 10:30:36 1999 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: My Biggest eBay gripe.. In-Reply-To: <199910181233.OAA22246@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Hans Franke wrote: > > On Sun, 17 Oct 1999, Marvin wrote: > > > John Lawson wrote: > > > > My main concern with the eBay auction algorithm is that it is > > > > time-limited, rather than bid-limited.... the aution closes after a > > > > fixed span **no matter what the bidding activity is**. > > > > 'Normal' auctions close when **no further bids are recieved** in an > > > > agreed-upon span. > > > > You are forgetting the sealed bid auctions. IMNSHO, it would be far better > > > for ebay to add the capability to make sealed bids (and yes, I have > > > suggested that to them.) That would eliminate this inching up just to see > > > where the high bid is prior to closing. > > > > Ebays suggestion that you just bid your maximum and wait to see what happens > > > is a good thought. But making that bid early just invites "well, I'll just > > > bid one more dollar to see what happens" and thus driving the price up. Most > > > ebay buyers have educated themselves to know that early bids do not bring > > > the best prices. Hence the popularity of sniping. A combination of sealed > > > and open bidding would most likely work out better than the current mess. > > > Yes, which is really what "sniping" is; a user-created form of sealed > > bidding. > > Come on - that would be if you where just allowed to enter one bid. Which is exactly what I do, self-imposed. > > People like me are the reason that bidding the max early is no good.I am > > a fool with my money, and I don't know when to say "when." I view a dollar > > as something that won't even buy me a cup of coffee most places, so it's > > never a big deal to say, "Hmmm...just one more dollar..." to try to top a > > bid. That's the biggest reason I bid in the final few seconds, to protect > > me from myself. By the time I can reload the page after I bid, the auction > > is over and I either won for that amount or lost... > > In fact, the eBay scheme comes from an overidealistic view of > their users - if all are well defined ethical beeings beting > ... ah bidding acording to the idealistic rules, everything > would work fine - just, people are not like that. And by > insisting that their rules are the one and only way, the eBay > guys are just as stubborn as all idiologic kind. > > So my solution would be in offering different auction styles, > giving the seller the freedom of choice what kind of auction > he likes: > > - classic eBay with fixed end date > - seald bid, you are allowed _one_ bid, the amount is secret > until the final time _and_ the named amount is the amount > to go for (!) > - time driven - every last bid extends the closing time by > 60 Minutes (to allow slow line / bussy people to place a > new bid) > > Well, the sealed bid could be modified to a seled bid light, > where the mechanics of the classic eBay scheme is used, which > results into paying only the next step after the second highest > bid (unlikely that a seller will select that if he has a choice > between both). > > Also the time driven may be enhanced with a final date (unknown > to public) to ensure that there is no endless auction. > > Anyway, I don't think we will see such a variety on eBay - Giving > fredom of coice isn't everybodys thing... > From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Oct 18 10:36:26 1999 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: Quake/Hurricane? In-Reply-To: <01BF194C.0C61FB20.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: For a lot of this stuff, I think the south-east has the *most* dangerous weather! While your average mini might easily survive having the roof fall on it, it might not survive 24 hours under flood water... Aaron On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Steve Robertson wrote: > > >So where was this quake for us less informed types? > > > > > >--Chuck > > > > A 7.0 about 30 miles N of Joshua Tree (that is, about 90 miles > > ENE of downtown LA). See > > > > > Natural disasters are not unique to the left coast. This weekend, Huricane > Irene visited South Florida and endangered some of my collection. Although > there was very wind damage, there is a trememdous amount of rain associated > with the storm. > > I got about 6" of water in my garage but was able to get almost everything > off the floor before the flooding began. Luckly I was home when it started > getting deep. > > Steve Robertson - > > From bwit at pobox.com Mon Oct 18 10:28:25 1999 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: TRS-80 2000 available in Dallas/Ft. Worth Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19991018102825.006a8958@ruffboy.com> If you are interested please contact Noma. Thanks, Bob ---------------------------------------- From: Rednlh@aol.com Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 15:27:38 EDT Subject: TRS80 2000 To: bwit@pobox.com X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 41 I have a monitor, keyboard and cpu for a TRS80 2000. Used to have some floppies but cannot locate them. Know anyone in the DFW area that might be interested? Noma L Kelton Henderson 1949 Spring Dr Roanoke, Tx 76262 rednlh@aol.com 817-431-2172 From dlw at trailingedge.com Mon Oct 18 10:45:51 1999 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: Zenith Terminals Message-ID: <199910181541.KAA06703@trailingedge.com> I picked up a couple of Zenith Data Systems Terminals this weekend. I can't find any indication of a model number anywhere on them. They look sort of like the Heath H-89 system (I think that's the one) but without the built in disk drive. Any one tell me what model this is? I can get a pic up on the web if that would help you out. Thanks. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From drd at mv.mv.com Mon Oct 18 10:46:18 1999 From: drd at mv.mv.com (David R. Dick) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: Zenith Terminals In-Reply-To: <199910181541.KAA06703@trailingedge.com> from "David Williams" at Oct 18, 99 10:45:51 am Message-ID: <199910181546.LAA07184@mv.mv.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 495 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991018/2a4766d2/attachment.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Oct 18 10:47:38 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: Zenith Terminals Message-ID: <991018114738.2360051b@trailing-edge.com> >I picked up a couple of Zenith Data Systems Terminals this >weekend. I can't find any indication of a model number anywhere >on them. They look sort of like the Heath H-89 system (I think >that's the one) but without the built in disk drive. Any one tell me >what model this is? Sounds like the venerable Z-19 to me. I always thought of the H-89 as a Z-19 with a built in computer, not the other way around :-). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Oct 18 11:28:35 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: More early -11 stuff unearthed Message-ID: <19991018162835.5592.rocketmail@web607.mail.yahoo.com> As the weekend progressed, I kept digging. Under a PDP-8/L I found an MM-11 box with five MM-11 backplanes (for the 4K sets), a peripheral backplane (KM-11?) a PSU, several UNIBUS jumpers, missing only the fans and bracket. Presumably now, I could assemble several MM11 sets and test them from some other PDP-11, say an 11/34, which happens to be nearby. Hopefully, additional digging will uncover the 11/20 cpu chassis. I did locate the box with the CPU boards and all the core drivers. The box had apparently gotten wet and some of the cut leads on the back of the board have rusted a little. I'll need to figure out how to get that stuff off before I power anything up. Another gem I thought I'd lost was my TVT-6 - a T.V. Typewriter I bought and assembled as a kid with lots of intentions of doing something interesting with it. I never even applied power. Looking back on the shape that board is in, I must say that I've gotten *much* better at soldering. :-) Perhaps I'll attach it to my SYM-1. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 18 11:41:34 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: Zenith Terminals In-Reply-To: <199910181541.KAA06703@trailingedge.com> Message-ID: > I picked up a couple of Zenith Data Systems Terminals this > weekend. I can't find any indication of a model number anywhere > on them. They look sort of like the Heath H-89 system (I think > that's the one) but without the built in disk drive. Any one tell me > what model this is? I can get a pic up on the web if that would help > you out. H19 or Z19 (kit or assembled) terminals and they are VT52 compatables. Allison From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Oct 18 12:08:47 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: Zenith Terminals Message-ID: <19991018170847.27570.rocketmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> --- allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > H19 or Z19 (kit or assembled) terminals and they are VT52 compatables. As has been mentioned here extensively, I've been restoring an H-11. It includes an H19 that I haven't even turned on yet. If I run into trouble, does anyone have docs I could get a copy of? Thanks, -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Oct 18 12:12:58 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: My Biggest eBay gripe.. In-Reply-To: <380B3246.8E44894B@rain.org> References: Message-ID: >Mike Ford wrote: >> >> I and many others have given the issue a LOT of thought, and basically the >> idea of a "live" finish is EXTREMELY popular among both buyers and sellers. >> Implementing it is not a small or simple problem, especially within the >> browser environment which expects the user to ask for updates. > >A live finish is not even slightly a good idea for online auctions. The >whole idea is to not have to be attending your bid at the time the auction >closes. I am not sure your "EXTREMELY" popular statement is true for the >whole of ebay. It may be true for the minority who visit the message boards. Then just bid your max and wait to see if you won in the morning, not a problem. From pbboy at mindspring.com Mon Oct 18 12:23:56 1999 From: pbboy at mindspring.com (pbboy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: EBaying; howling after an auction References: Message-ID: <380B57AC.7FE101E5@mindspring.com> There are programs written specifically for ebay that do your bidding for you, not proxy bidding like ebay has but sniping programs. you can configure it to place your bid at say 5 seconds before the auction ends, placing the bid only high enough to win the auction. Someone on this list complained that he was outbid by only $.01, the winner was most likely using one of these programs. pbboy Mike Ford wrote: > >About a week ago I put a bid on a Micro PDP-11/23 on ebay. I was top > >bidder until the end. Of course the end was when I was asleep (3 AM) > > The bidding doesn't start until the end on most items. I prefer not to bid > at all until the end so I don't "show my hand" on higher priced items. > Either bid at the end, and I mean well within the last minute if not the > last 10 seconds or so, or bid the full amount you are willing to pay for > the item. From Joe_Gill at spe.sony.com Mon Oct 18 12:42:25 1999 From: Joe_Gill at spe.sony.com (Joe_Gill@spe.sony.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: SGI PowerCenter 4d/210 parts FS Message-ID: <8825680E.00612A67.00@cpnts06.spe.sony.com> I have everything but cards, power supply and the rack itself up for grabs - rackmount cage and backplane, two hard drive shelves, 1.2 GB (!) CDC HD, the CPU meter plate, the four fans, screws, etc.... I am in SoCal, and due to the size pickup might be the way to go. I got these for cheap, and am passing that on to whomever may be interested. Email me if you are interested in these before they go to eBay.... Joe From bill at chipware.com Mon Oct 18 13:41:47 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives Message-ID: <000701bf1998$6eb321e0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> I've hunted around on the web to no avail... Can anybody give me the specs on these? Thanks, Bill Sudbrink From donm at cts.com Mon Oct 18 14:17:15 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives In-Reply-To: <000701bf1998$6eb321e0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Bill Sudbrink wrote: There should be a dash number associated with the TM 100, Bill. IIRC, -1A is SS 48tpi, -2A is DS 48 tpi, and 4A is either 96 tpi or 100 tpi. - don > I've hunted around on the web to no avail... > Can anybody give me the specs on these? > > Thanks, > Bill Sudbrink > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Oct 18 14:26:53 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives Message-ID: <000f01bf199e$bc154160$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> I've got a -4A with a sticker on the door latch which says 96tpi. Do these also come in 100? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Don Maslin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, October 18, 1999 1:24 PM Subject: Re: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives > > >On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > >There should be a dash number associated with the TM 100, Bill. IIRC, >-1A is SS 48tpi, -2A is DS 48 tpi, and 4A is either 96 tpi or 100 tpi. > > - don > >> I've hunted around on the web to no avail... >> Can anybody give me the specs on these? >> >> Thanks, >> Bill Sudbrink >> >> > From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Oct 18 14:28:52 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives Message-ID: <19991018192852.22969.rocketmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> --- Bill Sudbrink wrote: > I've hunted around on the web to no avail... > Can anybody give me the specs on these? Try http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~ih/doc/stepper/tm100/ It has _some_ info, but you didn't say what in particular you were looking for. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From bill at chipware.com Mon Oct 18 14:47:21 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives In-Reply-To: <19991018192852.22969.rocketmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000801bf19a1$97a56050$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > you didn't say what in particular you were looking for. Well, they have NorthStar QC tags on them dated 8-4-80. I thought that N* tended to be hard sectored and wanted to know for sure. There is a little paper tag next to the metal tag with a "2A" on it, so I'll assume from Don's message that they are 48 TPI double-sided. Nobody has said anything so far about hard/soft sectoring... Thanks, Bill Sudbrink From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 18 14:53:07 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: Zenith Terminals In-Reply-To: <19991018170847.27570.rocketmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > As has been mentioned here extensively, I've been restoring an H-11. It > includes an H19 that I haven't even turned on yet. If I run into trouble, > does anyone have docs I could get a copy of? I have them burried in a box. Also heath may as it was a widely used tube. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 18 14:56:24 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives In-Reply-To: <000701bf1998$6eb321e0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: What specs do you need, it's generic 5.25 single sided 40 track 48tpi drive. It didn't step fast but it was faster than sa400l at 30mS. allison On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > I've hunted around on the web to no avail... > Can anybody give me the specs on these? > > Thanks, > Bill Sudbrink > From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 18 15:01:40 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives In-Reply-To: <000801bf19a1$97a56050$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > you didn't say what in particular you were looking for. > > Well, they have NorthStar QC tags on them dated 8-4-80. > I thought that N* tended to be hard sectored and wanted > to know for sure. There is a little paper tag next to All the 5.25 floppies (exception of course) are hard/soft sector based on media used. The NS* could use a raft of different drives from the old sa400 35tr SS to the 96tpi two sided all of course hard sector. > the metal tag with a "2A" on it, so I'll assume from Don's > message that they are 48 TPI double-sided. Nobody has > said anything so far about hard/soft sectoring... The drive don't care. It's the media that is important in this case as soft sector has only one index hole and the hard sector for NS* uses 11 holes(index plus sectors). Allison From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 18 15:15:33 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives In-Reply-To: <000f01bf199e$bc154160$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Message-ID: At one point, the 100 TPI was nominally TM 100-4M. I'm guessing that the 'M' derived from "Micropolis", the originator of the 100 TPI drives that the -4M would be suitable for replacing. But I have a drive that was sold new as a -4M on which I can find no trace of an 'M'. Can we assume that a -3 wopuld be a 96TPI SS? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I've got a -4A with a sticker on the door latch which says 96tpi. Do these > also come in 100? > > Dick > > -----Original Message----- > From: Don Maslin > >There should be a dash number associated with the TM 100, Bill. IIRC, > >-1A is SS 48tpi, -2A is DS 48 tpi, and 4A is either 96 tpi or 100 tpi. From bill at chipware.com Mon Oct 18 15:26:50 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000901bf19a7$1bc60ba0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > The drive don't care. It's the media that is important in this case as > soft sector has only one index hole and the hard sector for NS* uses > 11 holes(index plus sectors). Ah... That makes sense. Although I thought that the index hole was in a different position. Is the same (drive don't care) true for 8 inch drives as well? From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Oct 18 15:25:22 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: A.B. Dick Magna-writer? Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991018152522.00d940f0@vpwisfirewall> I was offered the following system: >The other machine is an A.B.DICK Magna-writer. This is a 8085 based >machine with 64K of ram, two internal 250K floppy drives and a built-in >monochrome monitor. This is a monster. I would bet that with the keyboard >it weighs over 70 lbs. It was working well also, last time I checked. >There is also a matching Diablo 630 daisywheel printer that goes along >with the system." Should I jump for it? It's near me, outside Madison, WI. - John From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Oct 18 15:29:27 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives Message-ID: <19991018202927.20421.rocketmail@web607.mail.yahoo.com> --- Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > you didn't say what in particular you were looking for. > > Well, they have NorthStar QC tags on them dated 8-4-80. > I thought that N* tended to be hard sectored and wanted > to know for sure. Hard vs soft is a controller issue, not a drive issue (at least for non-customized drives like those found in the Commodore 4040, et al.) The drive has to have a sensor for the index hole. The Tandom TM-100 series does. It is ignored in most applications. > There is a little paper tag next to > the metal tag with a "2A" on it, so I'll assume from Don's > message that they are 48 TPI double-sided. That would be the case. It is the exact model used in the first IBM PCs and XTs. My Kaypro II has a pair of TM-100-1As. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From daniel at internet.look.ca Mon Oct 18 15:45:04 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: PDP 8/S webpage with many pictures Message-ID: <000c01bf19a9$a88ddca0$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> I quickly threw together a page on my PDP 8/s system I have just finished restoring. Many pictures are online so please wait for them to load. My priority right now is to have this unit connected to the internet so folks can play with it online. I will have a *proper* web page online soon with it's own domain name. http://www.bordynuik.com/8s.htm john From donm at cts.com Mon Oct 18 14:56:25 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives In-Reply-To: <000f01bf199e$bc154160$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I've got a -4A with a sticker on the door latch which says 96tpi. Do these > also come in 100? When you can find them, Dick. Mine is identified as 100 tpi by a sticker in the disk latch door. - don From donm at cts.com Mon Oct 18 14:58:27 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives In-Reply-To: <000801bf19a1$97a56050$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > you didn't say what in particular you were looking for. > > Well, they have NorthStar QC tags on them dated 8-4-80. > I thought that N* tended to be hard sectored and wanted > to know for sure. There is a little paper tag next to > the metal tag with a "2A" on it, so I'll assume from Don's > message that they are 48 TPI double-sided. Nobody has > said anything so far about hard/soft sectoring... That is a function of the controller, not the drive. It doesn't care! - don > Thanks, > Bill Sudbrink > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 18 14:36:21 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: PS 390 (was OutBid) In-Reply-To: <19991018033605Z433278-17224+174@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> from "Mark Green" at Oct 17, 99 09:35:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1361 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991018/7f7b5426/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 18 15:21:38 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: Zenith Terminals In-Reply-To: <19991018170847.27570.rocketmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 18, 99 10:08:47 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 499 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991018/7516786a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 18 15:12:34 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: Zenith Terminals In-Reply-To: <199910181541.KAA06703@trailingedge.com> from "David Williams" at Oct 18, 99 10:45:51 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 424 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991018/40d90845/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 18 15:10:31 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: I EBay snipered these PDP extenders last night. Did anyone else see them? In-Reply-To: <003001bf1973$969a6ee0$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> from "daniel" at Oct 18, 99 10:18:01 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 776 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991018/9108d05f/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Mon Oct 18 16:07:32 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: EBaying; howling after an auction References: <380B57AC.7FE101E5@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <380B8C14.6BFDF336@rain.org> pbboy wrote: > > There are programs written specifically for ebay that do your bidding for you, > not proxy bidding like ebay has but sniping programs. you can configure it to > place your bid at say 5 seconds before the auction ends, placing the bid only > high enough to win the auction. Someone on this list complained that he was > outbid by only $.01, the winner was most likely using one of these programs. That is not necessarily so. First, the maximum bid is kept private. Secondly, five seconds is not enough time to inch up to find out what a persons maximum bid is. Winning a bid by $.01 is only a co-incidence and can only result when the persons maximum has not been reached. From wsmith at gj.com Mon Oct 18 12:18:53 1999 From: wsmith at gj.com (Wayne Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: NEC Phone System PCBs Message-ID: I have unearthed a box full of late 1970s PCB's for an NEC phone system, called "Patrician" I believe. Lot's of interesting things plugged into them. Free for the shipping, which will probably be $5.00 by UPS ground if you're in CA. Wayne From lopareja at man.amis.com Mon Oct 18 16:15:50 1999 From: lopareja at man.amis.com (-) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: PDP 11/44 Epson printer driver Message-ID: <380B8E06.DDB79D43@man.amis.com> Folks I have PDP 11/44 and I had problem converting the old printer to new one , i would like to run an Epson printer LX300, Can you help ! I think i need printer output signal of the PDP to Epson ...etc. pls E-mail : lopareja@man.amis.com Thanks Lorence From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 18 16:20:17 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: PDP 8/S webpage with many pictures References: <000c01bf19a9$a88ddca0$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> Message-ID: <9910181720460M.10662@vault.neurotica.com> On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, daniel wrote: >I quickly threw together a page on my PDP 8/s system I have just finished >restoring. Many pictures are online so please wait for them to load. > >My priority right now is to have this unit connected to the internet so >folks can play with it online. > >I will have a *proper* web page online soon with it's own domain name. > >http://www.bordynuik.com/8s.htm GREAT PICS! Thanks for taking the time to do this! -Dave McGuire From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Oct 18 16:23:10 1999 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:58 2005 Subject: HP treasures available Message-ID: If interested, please contact Grace Ortschied directly at grace@numacorp.com... Available immediately: HP2680A laser printer (2) 7978A tape drives Possible available in December (ask her for specifics): 979/200ks w/185GB, dds, mag drives, 2563 & 2566 printers. Wow! If anyone can rescue the stuff, she'd really appreciate it. She really doesn't want to scrap anything. And if anyone ends up negotiating for the 979/200ks, let me know how it is! Cheers, Aaron From fpp at concentric.net Mon Oct 18 16:30:07 1999 From: fpp at concentric.net (Paul Passmore) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: EBaying; howling after an auction Message-ID: <000701bf19af$f3e4e9e0$8df3adce@paul> There are a few eBay tricks. Bidding you maximum by $X + 1 cent or = 51 cents etc. Most people bid in even dollar amounts. Adding 1 penny to your maximum bid often gets you the item. A lot of people know this so now they add 51 cents. It has worked for me several times. From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Oct 18 18:14:45 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: Wanted: Mac 128K/512K schematics and service manuals References: <003501bf190c$f540cd70$013da8c0@Corellian> Message-ID: <010501bf19be$91b67e00$93701fd1@jrkeysppt> There many sites on the web with what you are looking for and some nice listservs also. in search put in 'classic mac' ----- Original Message ----- From: John Lewczyk To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Sunday, October 17, 1999 9:03 PM Subject: Wanted: Mac 128K/512K schematics and service manuals > I've recently acquired one 128K and one 512K Macintosh and am looking for > technical documentation on it (schematics, logic diagrams of pc boards). I > thought that it would be easy to find on the web, but I've had no luck after > more than a week of searching. Any help with schematics or service manuals > would be appreciated. > > I've found some pdf files that have some rudimentary diagnostic procedures: > "if the logic board is bad, replace it" "if the floppy drive is bad, replace > it". > > The 128K's floppy isn't working, even after cleaning the coagulated > lubricant and I am trying to diagnose the problem. > > Thanks! > > John > jlewczyk@his.com > > From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Oct 18 18:15:30 1999 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: Frustration..and part of the RT11 System Manual is Online Message-ID: The perfect end to today... Somehow, I've lost my backup to the image files of an RT11 System Manual. Ugh. At any rate, I was able to put the first 4 chapters and TOC online today...I'll try to get the rest re-done as soon as is humanly possible. What's left is here: http://www.prinsol.com/~aaron/classiccmp/library/rt11_system_manual/ Aaron From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 18 18:15:53 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: PDP 11/44 Epson printer driver In-Reply-To: <380B8E06.DDB79D43@man.amis.com> from "-" at Oct 19, 99 05:15:50 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 665 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991019/f017767e/attachment.ksh From mbg at world.std.com Mon Oct 18 18:48:22 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: My Biggest eBay gripe.. Message-ID: <199910182348.TAA05626@world.std.com> > My main concern with the eBay auction algorithm is that it is >time-limited, rather than bid-limited.... the aution closes after a >fixed span **no matter what the bidding activity is**. I have to agree (to a limited degree). The problem is that how do you decide on how long to extend it. If you are trying to help those people who might be asleep when their 'high bid' is topped, you have to remember that no matter when the auction ends, *someone* who might want it may be asleep. I'll admit to sniping and being sniped (sometimes I even send mail off to the winner saying something like 'Well sniped... :-)' ) The reason sniping is done is to get a bid in such that the others bidding don't have a chance to get in another bid. If the auction was extended by as litle as five minutes beyond the last top bid, you wouldn't stop sniping, but you would prevent people from playing the game just mentioned... there would always (so long as you were at a terminal) be time to bid again. But then you have the problem of being able to ensure, within some timeframe, the end of the auction. Also, it means they have to keep it on the books for longer... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Mon Oct 18 18:54:15 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: DEC boards unearthed - I have some info Message-ID: <199910182354.TAA08921@world.std.com> >Yes, it is. It was called the 11/05 in 72 but later docs called it the >11/10. The 11/05 and 11/10 are the same CPU... If I remember correctly, the difference in designation was based on whether it was OEMed or not. Same for the 11/15,20 and the 11/35,40 >Anyway, do you have an 11/05 running and do you have any PDP 8s you >collect? I have a working 11/05 (with two core stacks -- the original 16Kw MM11-?? memory which came with it, and a 16Kw MM11-DP I got for it at a later time). I also have several pdp-8s... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From musicman38 at mindspring.com Mon Oct 18 19:47:40 1999 From: musicman38 at mindspring.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: EBaying; howling after an auction Message-ID: <001a01bf19cb$8e3a3ca0$90358ad1@home> >There are a few eBay tricks. Bidding you maximum by $X + 1 cent or = 51 >cents etc. Most people bid in even dollar amounts. Adding 1 penny to >our maximum bid often gets you the item. A lot of people know this so >now they add 51 cents. It has worked for me several times. I have learned this myself so I am now bidding $X + 2 cents, that give me the edge over the " + 1 cent " crowd.. <<< GRIN >>> !! From cfandt at netsync.net Mon Oct 18 20:03:24 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: EBaying; howling after an auction In-Reply-To: <001a01bf19cb$8e3a3ca0$90358ad1@home> Message-ID: <4.1.19991018210039.00acc940@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 08:47 PM 10/18/99 -0400, Phil Clayton said something like: > >>There are a few eBay tricks. Bidding you maximum by $X + 1 cent or = 51 >>cents etc. Most people bid in even dollar amounts. Adding 1 penny to >our >maximum bid often gets you the item. A lot of people know this so >now they >add 51 cents. It has worked for me several times. > > >I have learned this myself so I am now bidding $X + 2 cents, that give me >the edge over the " + 1 cent " crowd.. <<< GRIN >>> !! What now? Bidding up the $X + n cents edge? <<< BIGGER GRIN >>>! Have fun with it, from one who varies his $X + n cents and keeps it a secret ;-), Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From at258 at osfn.org Mon Oct 18 20:13:42 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: Wanted: MOSTEK 387x Manual In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nilodor was often sold in pet stores, or through pet magazines, I believe. We may be talking of the same product, or a generic variant. On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > >I remember there used to be an item called Nilodor that killed odors, > >rather well. Especially effective with animal urines. Made in Canada, I > >think. > > >> we come up with a way to deodorize it but... *thud. Any help would be > >> appreciated! :-) (Wonder what happens if you bake a book in a kiln or > >> something at 250-300 degrees for a few hours? Would that take the smell > >> out? It's not sticky - just *stinky*.) > > Several current products will do the job, from a clothes pin (for your > nose) to enzymes that target the odor stuff in urine. Check with local pet > stores for the latter. > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Oct 18 20:27:26 1999 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: My Biggest eBay gripe.. References: <199910182348.TAA05626@world.std.com> Message-ID: <380BC8FE.B3E6BD0D@mainecoon.com> Megan wrote: [stuff deleted] > The reason sniping is done is to get a bid in such that the others > bidding don't have a chance to get in another bid. If the auction > was extended by as litle as five minutes beyond the last top bid, > you wouldn't stop sniping, but you would prevent people from playing > the game just mentioned... there would always (so long as you were > at a terminal) be time to bid again. A more interesting approach would be to simply introduce uncertainty on the order of plus or minus some number of minutes into the auction end time. That would at least make sniping a bit more sporting ;-) Still not too sure what this thread has to do with boatanchors... Best, Chris -- Chris Kennedy Commercial ASMEL/Instrument, AGI chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Just your typical airplane flying, beer brewing, car collecting Nova enthusiast" From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon Oct 18 20:36:34 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: HP treasures available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991018183634.00952ad0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 14:23 18-10-1999 -0700, you wrote: >If interested, please contact Grace Ortschied directly at >grace@numacorp.com... Where are they located, Aaron? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Oct 18 20:43:29 1999 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: HP treasures available In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991018183634.00952ad0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: I'm sorry, I totally forgot the worst part (for me): The stuff is in Akron, Ohio... Aaron On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Bruce Lane wrote: > At 14:23 18-10-1999 -0700, you wrote: > > >If interested, please contact Grace Ortschied directly at > >grace@numacorp.com... > > > > Where are they located, Aaron? > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies > http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com > Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 > "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our > own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." > From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Oct 18 20:44:46 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: Beer Brewin' & Fast Typin' (was: Re: My Biggest eBay gripe..) In-Reply-To: <380BC8FE.B3E6BD0D@mainecoon.com> References: <199910182348.TAA05626@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991018214446.0096e100@127.0.0.1> Rumor has it that Chris Kennedy may have mentioned these words: >"Just your typical airplane flying, beer brewing, car collecting > Nova enthusiast" Beer brewing, eh? ;-) I remember back in '91/'92 when I started brewing - I used my Tandy 200 laptop to type in all of my smaller beer brewing how-to manuals, so I'd have an on-line reference... Still have the disks around with the stuff stored on them for the TPDD2, but I've since ftp'd the books over to my Linux box and stitched the broken-up files back together and access it there. (I also have the original files backed up on PeeCee in laptap format! :^) Still no better keyboard for 110+wpm, IMNSHO... ;-) Take care, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From jruschme at exit109.com Mon Oct 18 20:49:52 1999 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: OT: Not-classic Hardware Freebie In-Reply-To: from Aaron Christopher Finney at "Oct 18, 99 00:45:22 am" Message-ID: <199910190149.VAA00578@hefalump.home.org> > > I've got the mainboard and cpu card from an AST Manhattan P5090 server > (dual Pentium-90 sockets) that are marked "non-working" with no further > details. IIRC, we pulled this from service a couple of years ago and it > didn't want to post when we tried to test it sometime after that. > > If someone wants this, let me know. Otherwise it finds it's way to the > round file... > Any possibility that this is still available? If so, I'm interested... <<>> From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon Oct 18 20:54:18 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: My Biggest GRIPE, period... In-Reply-To: <380BC8FE.B3E6BD0D@mainecoon.com> References: <199910182348.TAA05626@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991018185418.009318d0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> ...is having to wade through tons of what appear, to my eyes, to be off-topic crap about Ebay in search of useful list content. I'm installing a filter in Eudora to nuke anything with 'Ebay' in the subject line. I respectfully request that the parties discussing Ebay in gory detail please spare us all and take it to E-mail. Sheesh... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From jruschme at exit109.com Mon Oct 18 20:54:48 1999 From: jruschme at exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: Macintosh Hardware Question In-Reply-To: from Aaron Christopher Finney at "Oct 18, 99 00:39:42 am" Message-ID: <199910190154.VAA00586@hefalump.home.org> > Can someone tell me whether the IIsi PDS slot is compatible with the PDS > slot on the IIfx? I know that the PDS slot in general is fairly different > between models, and the IIfx is fairly unique in a hardware context > anyway. What I want to do is use a PDS-based video card in a IIfx, and > it's a working pull from a IIsi... Nope, it's not. Basically, the II-series Macs have two PDS standards: - IIsi and SE/30 - IIci, IIvi, IIvx, IIfx They are *not* interchangeable and supposedly you will let out the magic smoke. > Barring that, does anyone know if there was ever a 3rd party video card > for the PDS slot that is compatible with the IIfx? I don't think that there were ever any PDS video cards for other than the IIsi PDS. The IIci, etc. all had three-or-more open NuBUS slots, so there seemed little reason to need one. (Speaking of which, you have my curiousity up... why the desire for a PDS video card instead of a NuBus one? Don't tell me I'm not the only person to max out a 6-slot II-series Mac. :-) <<>> From cfandt at netsync.net Mon Oct 18 21:02:55 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: My Biggest eBay gripe.. In-Reply-To: <380BC8FE.B3E6BD0D@mainecoon.com> References: <199910182348.TAA05626@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991018220040.00aca8c0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 06:27 PM 10/18/99 -0700, Chris Kennedy said something like: >Megan wrote: > >[stuff deleted] > -- yet more stuff deleted -- > >Still not too sure what this thread has to do with boatanchors... Boatanchors?? We discuss them over on the Boat Anchor Owners and Collectors List Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From marvin at rain.org Mon Oct 18 21:08:17 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: My Biggest GRIPE, period... References: <199910182348.TAA05626@world.std.com> <3.0.5.32.19991018185418.009318d0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <380BD291.2B1195A1@rain.org> Bruce Lane wrote: > > ...is having to wade through tons of what appear, to my eyes, to be > off-topic crap about Ebay in search of useful list content. I don't feel that talking about how to obtain something is anymore off topic than why we collect, how to repair equipment, run it, etc. At times, there have been a LOT of conversation about DEC equipment which, at this time in my life, is not particularly interesting to me since my interest is micros. BUT, all the topics are interesting to a number of people and as long as it is related to what we are doing, I don't have a problem with it. From musicman38 at mindspring.com Mon Oct 18 21:20:41 1999 From: musicman38 at mindspring.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: EBaying; howling after an auction Message-ID: <00bd01bf19d8$8c30c520$90358ad1@home> >>I have learned this myself so I am now bidding $X + 2 cents, that give me >>the edge over the " + 1 cent " crowd.. <<< GRIN >>> !! > >What now? Bidding up the $X + n cents edge? <<< BIGGER GRIN >>>! > >Have fun with it, from one who varies his $X + n cents and keeps it a >secret ;-), Chris >-- -- > >Christian Fandt, I agree with having fun on eBay, it is a lot of fun sometimes.. Also have had a lot of fun seeing how close I can get to the end of the auction, like kicking in my maxim bid at exactly 5 seconds remaining.. Depending on the traffic load on eBay server at the time, I have scored a bid (Victory) with only 1 second remaining.. (Can you heard the crowds cheer). Sometimes I have also lost this way because the server on eBay was running slow and I got the very unpleasant notice that "The bidding is now closed on this item" << GRIN >>.. Seriously though if you see something you really want I suggest not to bid on it till the last 15 seconds, then place your maximum bid. Bidding early will only drive the price higher.. In a way all auctions on eBay are sealed bids simply because you do not know what someone else will bid in the last few seconds.. And in that respect its kinda fun.. So I say if you want to play the eBay game, better play the same way others do.. So have fun... Phil.. From rdd at smarty.smart.net Mon Oct 18 21:25:51 1999 From: rdd at smarty.smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: Preventing cartridge tape stickiness Message-ID: <199910190225.WAA26014@smarty.smart.net> Can anyone provide any information about the best way to preserve cartridge tapes, such as DC300 tapes, so that parts of the tape don't stick together? Using new 3M DC300 tape several years ago, onto which I'd copied the source code to the S.6 version of the Accent operating system, the tape stuck together about two years later and was destroyed when I tried to read it. Not sure how to try to preserve the rest of the data, written with the Stut (the streaming tape utilitu software) software, that's still on the tape - any ideas? -- R. D. Davis rdd@perqlogic.com Be careful what you wish for --- you http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd may get your wish ...and it might not Tel: (410) 744-4900 be what you were expecting. From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Oct 18 21:39:32 1999 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: Beer Brewin' & Fast Typin' (was: Re: My Biggest eBay gripe..) References: <199910182348.TAA05626@world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.19991018214446.0096e100@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <380BD9E4.C376FDCC@mainecoon.com> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Chris Kennedy may have mentioned these words: > > >"Just your typical airplane flying, beer brewing, car collecting > > Nova enthusiast" Mea culpa > Beer brewing, eh? ;-) You betcha :-). In fact, there's a bit of a boatanchor-brewing conflict taking place in the garage just now in that I've got 70-odd pounds of grain just waiting for a marathon mashing session but I can't get to the grain mill or the mash tuns because of a bunch of HP gear that (finally -- LTL shipping I've learned is somewhat nondeterministic) materialized two days ago. Two identical SMP 9000/800 I70 systems, each in two one-meter racks plus two six-foot racks stuffed with comm gear (anyone want some rack mounted Hayes v.34 faxmodems?) and the biggest damn lineprinter I've ever seen. Not at all sure what to do with any of it. A moral dilemma if there ever was: do I move the HP gear to storage so I can brew, move the HP gear and the brewing gear so I can park more cars inside before winter hits, or just give up and construct a building to hold all this cra -er- valuable stuff? (note that I've not included my wife's prefered alternative: "get rid of it"). Best, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Just a case of DeCastro lightening" - Al Robb on the Keronix fire. From bill_r at inetnebr.com Mon Oct 18 22:06:13 1999 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: Wanted: MOSTEK 387x Manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <380cdfb6.43829954@insight> I appreciate the suggestions, but this book has very thin pages, and I'm afraid any additional liquid applied to them will either make them stick together, or wrinkle up, or possibly just come apart. Are any of these odor killers available as a powder or aerosol that won't saturate the paper even more? On Sun, 17 Oct 1999 23:01:35 -0400 (EDT), "Merle K. Peirce" wrote: >I remember there used to be an item called Nilodor that killed odors, >rather well. Especially effective with animal urines. Made in Canada, I >think. > -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r - Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities. From stanp at storm.ca Mon Oct 18 22:33:51 1999 From: stanp at storm.ca (Stan Pietkiewicz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: VaxStation Questions References: Message-ID: <380BE69F.29D5F1F9@storm.ca> Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > On Fri, 15 Oct 1999 sms@antinode.org wrote: > > > Assuming the (cheaper) GPX graphics, 1024x864, 60Hz vertical (?), one > > DEC monitor is the (19-inch) VR299. A Web search on that should provide > > more details. If you got the (deluxe) SPX graphics, then it's > > 1280x1024, 67Hz vertical (?). I'm using an HP 98754A on my > > AlphaStation, and I'd bet that it'd work with an SPX card in the > > VAXstation, too. You could steal the keyboard from your VT320 (or a > > VT220, and probably others). The mouse (DECburger) is a VSXXX-AA, and > > it's pretty DEC-specific. > > If you're looking for them, I've been seeing VS hockey pucks and keyboards > pretty regularly on Haggle for the past few months... Another thought crossed my mind: How can I tell which one is installed?? Stan From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Oct 18 22:33:58 1999 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: Macintosh Hardware Question In-Reply-To: <199910190154.VAA00586@hefalump.home.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, John Ruschmeyer wrote: > > Can someone tell me whether the IIsi PDS slot is compatible with the PDS > > slot on the IIfx? I know that the PDS slot in general is fairly different > > between models, and the IIfx is fairly unique in a hardware context > > anyway. What I want to do is use a PDS-based video card in a IIfx, and > > it's a working pull from a IIsi... > > Nope, it's not. > > Basically, the II-series Macs have two PDS standards: > > - IIsi and SE/30 > - IIci, IIvi, IIvx, IIfx I thought the IIci PDS slot was *only* for the cache card, no? I kind of figured, when I looked more closely at the card and saw how different the rear plate mount was..."Hmmm, that sure looks like the rear plate of that SE/30 card..." > They are *not* interchangeable and supposedly you will let out the magic > smoke. Ya, that's what I've heard about trying to put the IIci cache card into another PDS slot, since they're both that Euro-120 connector. > > Barring that, does anyone know if there was ever a 3rd party video card > > for the PDS slot that is compatible with the IIfx? > > I don't think that there were ever any PDS video cards for other than the > IIsi PDS. The IIci, etc. all had three-or-more open NuBUS slots, so there > seemed little reason to need one. > > (Speaking of which, you have my curiousity up... why the desire for a > PDS video card instead of a NuBus one? Don't tell me I'm not the only person > to max out a 6-slot II-series Mac. :-) Well, not quite, but close. I've got 2 nics, a CPS Hurdler, an 8*24GC, and will soon attempt an gp-ib interface as well. The reason I wanted to try the PDS card is that I was reading about how the SE/30 could display complex graphics more quickly because of the speed of the bus being so much faster than the pokey 10mhz nubus. The 8*24GC doesn't work in accelerated mode under A/UX, and I was hoping I'd be able to try something like a Supermac PDQ+ (since they're so cheap now). Thanks for the info, Aaron From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Oct 18 22:39:15 1999 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: Personal clutter: Jason Pero's private address needed Message-ID: Hi Jason, I've tried to send mail a few different ways to your private return address with no luck... Aaron From stanp at storm.ca Mon Oct 18 22:45:11 1999 From: stanp at storm.ca (Stan Pietkiewicz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: Dec ID questions References: <0.5c243649.25398dcf@aol.com> Message-ID: <380BE946.E999D80D@storm.ca> Innfogra@aol.com wrote: <> > DEC 400X with RF31s & a TF 85. What size are the RF 31s & the tape. What > systems does the 400X plug into. It looks like it has both SCSI I & SCSI II > ports. THe R400x is a storage expansion chassis designed to hook up to fairly recent VAX systems... The MVax 3400 and VAX 4000 (not VaxStation) series comes to mind. The connection is for a DSSI (Digital Storage Systems Interconnect, IIRC), not SCSI..... RF30 drives are 150 MB; I would guess the RF31's are around 300MB. The TF85 is either a 2.6 or 6 GB (IIRC) DLT drive.... I picked up one of these chassis intending to use it with my MV3400; now all I need is the DSSI cable to go to the MV3400, and some ISE carriers (Drive mounting and connection hardware) to plug it all in.... <> > Thanks for the help. > Paxton You're welcome..... :-}) Stan From black at gco.apana.org.au Mon Oct 18 23:13:59 1999 From: black at gco.apana.org.au (Lance Lyon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: Oz auction site & wanted list. Message-ID: <003e01bf19e8$62d0c760$00808080@primus.com.au> There ain't a great deal there, but Oz users can go to an Aust. auction site at www.sold.com.au I managed to pick up a PET 8032 plus dual drive for $27 & a whole heap (read - boxes full) of C64 equipment & software. With a bit of luck, more will become available. Now for the wanted list (preferably Oz, but will consider o/s if required): Commodore Plus4's, C16's & VIC20's plus s/ware, carts, manuals etc. C64's & 128's plus peripherals, software & manuals. Oz only (because of weight): Any type of PET plus peripherals (working or not). And I'm not likely to get either of these, but it's worth a try - a KIM-1 (possible) & a C65 (buckleys chance) // Lance Lyon black@gco.apana.org.au llyon@primus.com.au Ph: +61-3-6254-7376 Mob: 0416-012-331 // -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991019/437d3b63/attachment.html From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Oct 18 23:37:25 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: I EBay snipered these PDP extenders last night. Did anyone else see them? In-Reply-To: <003001bf1973$969a6ee0$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991018213600.00b847d0@mcmanis.com> DOn't do it. If they are not omnibus extenders they will have ground planes attached to the wrong pins. --Chuck (Who did this on a Unibus extender and now has a "quad" unibus extender card :-( and no Omnibus card) At 10:18 AM 10/18/99 -0400, you wrote: >I got two quad (looks to be originals for the 11) PDP extender cards for >$21.50! I had to get up at 1 in the morning to nail it. If the spacing is >the same on either side of the middle "slot" then I guess I just have to cut >them down the middle for the PDP 8? Sorry "flipchip". > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=179610883 > >The guy had it listed under "Photo Electronics" with no PDP nor Digital in >the subject/description. > >john > >-----Original Message----- >From: Aaron Christopher Finney >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Monday, October 18, 1999 3:03 AM >Subject: Re: EBaying; howling after an auction > > > > > > > >On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > >> >Sniping is the art of ignorance on the value of something. > >> > >> Huh? No, man. Sniping is a means to an end. Nothing more, nothing >less. > >> Not entirely "nice", not entirely what the eBay designers had in mind, >but > >> extremely effective. > > > >I'd have to agree with Marvin. You don't bid early on something because > >you don't want to attract attention to something that might be mis-labeled > >or poorly described. If other people don't know what it is, and the > >bidding price stays low, you bid in the last 5 seconds and get it for much > >less that you would have had a bunch of people been after it. > > > >Myself, I go on eBinges. I might spend a couple of days pouring over ads > >for stuff that I've been looking for for a long time. Sometimes I buy > >things just to buy them; once I bought an IBM thermal printer for $.25 and > >paid $5.00 shipping for it. Recently I got an IBM Fortran manual for a > >buck or so, and the guy just sent it without payment. What else...oh yeah, > >I picked up a SCSI adapter for an Atari ST for $1.00, because the guy had > >it listed only as "SCI Adapter"...total fluke, because I myself misspelled > >"scsi" in the search... > > > >I'm certainly no power user of eBay (shallow pockets, too lazy to ship > >things), but I find that their format drives me to "snipe" things, but I > >look at it, as Marvin said, as a Sealed Auction way to buy. People who try > >to be *fair* about bidding there, when their system doesn't cater to the > >kind of fairness that allows everyone to have their turn to bid until > >the last call, just end up frustrated and disappointed. > > > >My .02, > > > > > >Aaron > > > > > > From cem14 at cornell.edu Tue Oct 19 00:09:01 1999 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: EBaying; howling after an auction In-Reply-To: <380AA87E.DE8D3528@rain.org> References: <9910171754030U.08423@vault.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19991019010901.006b7b10@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 09:56 PM 10/17/99 -0700, you wrote: >Putting in an >early bid is IMHO not a wise idea since there is always someone pushing just >to see if they might get it. The wise bidder bids their maximum bid at the >latest possible time. FWIW, sniping can be compared to a sealed bid. Ahhh.. yes. It is plain psychology. No one wants to be outbid (for proof of this, look at all recent posts regarding those low-scum-collectors- who-happen-to-pay-more-than-myself in this very list... ;-) ). In most people, this will trigger a desire (most times, it will be followed-through ) of bidding even higher... even if it is not the (perceived) right price anymore. This is good for eBay, and its stock value (or, at this point in time, "rating" is a more appropriate word) also depends on it. Me, I see that eBay is pushing this behavior even further; it used to be that if somebody bid on something, and someone else had set a higher max bid than one's own, the message to the newer bidder would be something like "sorry, someone has outbid you". Period. Now, what you get is the following: ``Try again ? someone has outbid you! This means you'll need to bid again.'' Clearest proof so far that they actually try to push prices up. But, on the other hand, these are just good 'ol classical marketing strategies. They still work. Therefore, I agree with the practice of "sniping". Closest thing to an unbiased, responsible, self-refrained bid. Carlos. From donm at cts.com Tue Oct 19 00:31:12 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > At one point, the 100 TPI was nominally TM 100-4M. I'm guessing that the > 'M' derived from "Micropolis", the originator of the 100 TPI drives that > the -4M would be suitable for replacing. > > But I have a drive that was sold new as a -4M on which I can find no trace > of an 'M'. > > > Can we assume that a -3 wopuld be a 96TPI SS? Based on the numbering sequence, I'd say that was a reasonable assumption. - don > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > > On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > I've got a -4A with a sticker on the door latch which says 96tpi. Do these > > also come in 100? > > > > Dick > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Don Maslin > > >There should be a dash number associated with the TM 100, Bill. IIRC, > > >-1A is SS 48tpi, -2A is DS 48 tpi, and 4A is either 96 tpi or 100 tpi. > > From donm at cts.com Tue Oct 19 00:59:42 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: Preventing cartridge tape stickiness In-Reply-To: <199910190225.WAA26014@smarty.smart.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, R. D. Davis wrote: > > Can anyone provide any information about the best way to preserve > cartridge tapes, such as DC300 tapes, so that parts of the tape don't > stick together? Using new 3M DC300 tape several years ago, onto which > I'd copied the source code to the S.6 version of the Accent operating > system, the tape stuck together about two years later and was > destroyed when I tried to read it. Not sure how to try to preserve the > rest of the data, written with the Stut (the streaming tape utilitu > software) software, that's still on the tape - any ideas? The only thing that I would suggest is to retension them periodically before they start to stick adjacent layers. - don > > -- > R. D. Davis > rdd@perqlogic.com Be careful what you wish for --- you > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd may get your wish ...and it might not > Tel: (410) 744-4900 be what you were expecting. > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Oct 19 00:48:23 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: Wanted: MOSTEK 387x Manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Nilodor was often sold in pet stores, or through pet magazines, I believe. >We may be talking of the same product, or a generic variant. No, Nilodor is a OLD product, sort of a odor cancelling perfume (but clearly not just a perfume). The new stuff actually goes after the proteins or some such that make the odor in urine. The generic odor stuff I "think" is some variation on bleach. A number of very effective odor reducers are available now, so its worth looking if something stinks you like. From donm at cts.com Tue Oct 19 01:29:34 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives In-Reply-To: <000901bf19a7$1bc60ba0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > The drive don't care. It's the media that is important in this case as > > soft sector has only one index hole and the hard sector for NS* uses > > 11 holes(index plus sectors). > > Ah... That makes sense. Although I thought that the index hole > was in a different position. Is the same (drive don't care) true > for 8 inch drives as well? > Well, the Shugart 801s and 851s had a jumper that permitted selecting between 800/850 characteristics and 801/851 characteristics. The difference is hopefully explained by the following: > Some of the old 8" drives (Shugarts included) did have the hard-sector jumpers, but that was to accomodate a peculiarity in the 8" interface. An 8" drive in hard-sector mode delivers both an index and a sector pulse. Mostly, the hard-sector jumpering brought into play a couple of one-shots. Unlike the READY signal, this was never carried over to the 5.25" drives. The READY signal, oddly enough, wasn't present on the Shugart 400 5.25" original, but was added when 100 tpi drives came along. Now, most drives with more than 40 cylinders offer an option setting (even if it's a trace cut) to select disk change or ready. Few 48 tpi 5.25" drives, however, do. One surmise is that this was to make migration from 8" drives easier. - don From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Oct 19 01:35:25 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: stuff to deoderise urine (was: Wanted: MOSTEK 387x Manual) In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Oct 18, 1999 10:48:23 PM Message-ID: <199910190635.AAA17425@calico.litterbox.com> > > >Nilodor was often sold in pet stores, or through pet magazines, I believe. > >We may be talking of the same product, or a generic variant. > > No, Nilodor is a OLD product, sort of a odor cancelling perfume (but > clearly not just a perfume). The new stuff actually goes after the proteins > or some such that make the odor in urine. The generic odor stuff I "think" > is some variation on bleach. A number of very effective odor reducers are > available now, so its worth looking if something stinks you like. There is also an enzyme based stuff sold at pet stores called "Nature's Miracle". It breaks down urine (esp. cat urine) so it doesn't smell. We have a cat with some odious personal habits (she pees on things) and use Nature's Miracle all the time. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From rkaplan at accsys-corp.com Tue Oct 19 05:25:05 1999 From: rkaplan at accsys-corp.com (Randy Kaplan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: Approaching Scrappers Message-ID: <380C4701.BC3081D@accsys-corp.com> Hello to all - Has anyone used/approached scrappers as a source of collection? If so, what has been your experience? How do you approach these guys? Thanks, Randy From steverob at hotoffice.com Tue Oct 19 08:00:07 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: My Biggest GRIPE, period... Message-ID: <01BF1A10.581AE620.steverob@hotoffice.com> > > I respectfully request that the parties discussing Ebay in gory detail > please spare us all and take it to E-mail. > > Sheesh... I second that motion! Steve Robertson - From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Tue Oct 19 08:19:45 1999 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: Vax 4000-305A - what is it? Message-ID: <8025680F.0048D27B.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> A couple of weeks ago, I was told that a vax was to be thrown out at work. I assumed it was the rather nice pair of Vax 9000 machines that was our main server for many years, but alas no. It is a Vax 4000-305A (with some well cool disk and tape accessories) It is a desktop box but lives in a DEC 3/4-height 19-inch rack that used to house a machine called SF200. Another shelf in the rack houses a fun-looking tape drive of which I can't remember the number, and two SCSI boxes (the sort that take about 8 drives in one box) are standing on the floor of the rack. Anyway, what sort of machine is the 4000-305A? AFAIK it was running VMS when last it was running... (The other question is... Where do I put it??? With luck, I may have rented somewhere suitable within the next couple of weeks, but I don't know. And then there's the SGI monitor I got given today. Aargh!) Philip. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. Power Technology Centre, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, Nottingham, NG11 0EE, UK Tel: +44 (0)115 936 2000 http://www.powertech.co.uk ********************************************************************** From cfandt at netsync.net Tue Oct 19 09:20:01 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: Approaching Scrappers In-Reply-To: <380C4701.BC3081D@accsys-corp.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991019095715.00aa01f0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 06:25 AM 10/19/99 -0400, Randy Kaplan said something like: >Hello to all - > >Has anyone used/approached scrappers as a source of collection? If so, >what has been your experience? How do you approach these guys? Golly Randy! You must me sort of new here :-) There was an interesting thread or two a couple weeks back just on this. Check one or two of the two ClassicCmp list archives. One's at http://www.heydon.org/kevan/mlists/classiccmp/ and check thru the article list for 1999-10 or maybe 1999-09 (what the heck was that thread's name folks??) The other list is at the list owner's server at U. of Wash. via Gopher: gopher://lists.u.washington.edu:70/1m/public/classiccmp/classiccmp.log9910. '9910' indicates 10th month of '99, '9909' is 9th month, etc. Starts at 9703. Lot's of important technical info in many of the archived threads (plus lot's of chatter littered around too). Welcome to the list! Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue Oct 19 08:42:23 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: Approaching Scrappers Message-ID: <19991019.092530.218.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Randy: Approach these guys as often as possible, because timing is everything. The one I deal with here locally, doesn't care a whole lot about 'collectability' (which is actually a blessing, because I can get stuff so cheaply). As a result, if you're not there before it gets torn down (or rained upon, as applicable), you're out of luck. I recently missed a VAX 6000 this way. Never saw the machine; just the (broken) bits in the bin when 'Axel' was done with it. I recently uncovered a bin filled with HP 98xx's (sorry Joe). It was obvious they had been under water for a *LONG* time. Heartbreaking. I've told them time and again that they should give me a call when new material arrives with the d|i|g|i|t|a|l or hp logo on them, but to no avail. They have bigger fish to fry (like aircraft fuselage assembly jigs, for example). Anyways, all I can offer you is to be vigilant, and poll the yard frequently. They recently chopped up a NOVA IV-- all I got was the 8" FDD's. Sigh. Jeff On Tue, 19 Oct 1999 06:25:05 -0400 Randy Kaplan writes: > Hello to all - > > Has anyone used/approached scrappers as a source of collection? If > so, > what has been your experience? How do you approach these guys? > > Thanks, > > Randy > > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From mac at Wireless.Com Tue Oct 19 10:16:35 1999 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: Getting a 1401? Message-ID: I'd like to acquire an IBM 1401. It would also be nice to have the companion 1311 disk, and perhaps the 1402 Card Reader/Punch and 1403 Chain Line Printer. Does anybody on this list have such a system, or know were I could get one? Thanks! -Mike From edick at idcomm.com Tue Oct 19 10:55:36 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: Approaching Scrappers Message-ID: <000801bf1a4a$62ed8aa0$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> A couple of relatively important things to keep in mind: (1) scrappers sell the items they collect as scrap. Homogeneity is important to this pursuit, i.e. unpainted pure aluminum scrap is more valuable than mixtures of painted and unpainted aluminum, and there must be no non-metal or non-aluminum mixed in, else the value goes WAY down. This means that they have to add labor to the mix before they can scrap most computer components, e.g. disk drives. (2) they are ALREADY in business and ALREADY plan to make money with what is in their lot. They already know what they will get for their stuff once it's "cleaned" and sorted. That often means they have to add considerable amounts of labor in order to get top prices. (3) they already know that there is some stuff that YOU will pay for if you think it's going to be of value. Some people will pay more for old stuff than others, though and they know it is out there, though they don't know what YOU specifically want. If you treat them as though they know their business, and as though you know yours, i.e. with appropriate respect, even though you may not believe either to be true, a simple question at the outset about how he wishes to set prices on the type of materials you wish to take home is probably all you need to get started. Many yards have these prices posted somewhere, so look around and read the signs before you start asking questions. It might not hurt to start with a "look around" the yard. If you see others collecting what you think might be of interest to you, then watch and listen. You'll be surprised what you can learn! Dick -----Original Message----- From: Randy Kaplan To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 4:31 AM Subject: Approaching Scrappers >Hello to all - > >Has anyone used/approached scrappers as a source of collection? If so, >what has been your experience? How do you approach these guys? > >Thanks, > >Randy > > From elvey at hal.com Tue Oct 19 11:35:32 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199910191635.JAA01539@civic.hal.com> Don Maslin wrote: > Well, the Shugart 801s and 851s had a jumper that permitted selecting > between 800/850 characteristics and 801/851 characteristics. The > difference is hopefully explained by the following: > > > Some of the old 8" drives (Shugarts included) did have the hard-sector > jumpers, but that was to accomodate a peculiarity in the 8" interface. Hi I thought the difference between the 800 and 801 was that one had the clock separator and the other didn't? Dwight From mranalog at home.com Tue Oct 19 11:25:19 1999 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives Message-ID: <380C9B6F.924E47F8@home.com> > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 14:41:47 -0400 "Bill Sudbrink" said: > I've hunted around on the web to no avail... > Can anybody give me the specs on these? According to my Tandon OEM Operating and Service Manual for the TM100-1 and TM100-2: Tracks per inch 48 TPI both drives Tracks per drive TM100-1 40 tracks, TM100-2 80 tracks Disk Rotational Speed 300 RPM +/- 1.5% Motor Start Time 250 milliseconds Motor Stop Time 150 milliseconds Seek Time,track to track 5 milliseconds Head Settling Time 15 milliseconds Ave Track Access Time 75 milliseconds Typ. Recording Modes FM,MFM,MMFM Data Transfer Rate 250,000 bits per second Unformated Cap. TM100-1 250Kb per disk, TM100-2 500Kb per disk Bill, Let me know if you need a copy of this. Thanks again for the C4P boot disks. The C4P-MF is coming along nicely. The power supply checks out and I'm pulling every socketed chip and reseating it during the cleaning. So far, I've found 5 chips with pins broken down inside the sockets. Fortunately, I was able to remove the pins from the sockets. Now I just need to pick-up some replacement 8T26 bus driver/receivers and then check all of those 2114s on the two 527 Ram boards and I'll be ready to fire this thing up. :) --Doug ==================================================== Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com (work) Sr. Software Eng. mranalog@home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ==================================================== From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 19 11:49:16 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives In-Reply-To: <380C9B6F.924E47F8@home.com> Message-ID: > According to my Tandon OEM Operating and Service Manual > for the TM100-1 and TM100-2: > > Tracks per inch 48 TPI both drives > Tracks per drive TM100-1 40 tracks, TM100-2 80 tracks While "CORRECT" in some twisted perverted way, that is VERY misleading. Many folks reading that would misinterpret it as implying 80 tracks per side (aka 96TPI), which it ISN'T. The -2 is the double sided version of the -1. It is 40 tracks per side. Perhaps it's time to do as the hard-drive manufacturers did and change the terminology. Both the -1 and -2 are 40 CYLINDER. > Disk Rotational Speed 300 RPM +/- 1.5% > Motor Start Time 250 milliseconds > Motor Stop Time 150 milliseconds > Seek Time,track to track 5 milliseconds > Head Settling Time 15 milliseconds > Ave Track Access Time 75 milliseconds > Typ. Recording Modes FM,MFM,MMFM > Data Transfer Rate 250,000 bits per second "Data Transfer Rate" is not a meaningful spec in this context! Particularly following the acknowledgement that the drive was suitable for recording modes besides MFM! > Unformated Cap. TM100-1 250Kb per disk, TM100-2 500Kb per disk "Unformatted Cap." is assumed to be MFM. BTW, the IBM "Hardware Maintenance and Service" manuals for the PC and XT have a lot of pretty pictures of mechanical disassembly of Tandon TM 100-2 drives. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From emu at ecubics.com Tue Oct 19 11:53:30 1999 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: tektronix 4006 terminal References: Message-ID: <00a901bf1a52$7b986a90$5d01a8c0@ecubuero> Hi, anybody knows any spec of it ? Anybody looking for one ? cheers, emanuel From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Tue Oct 19 11:53:58 1999 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: Pins broken in sockets? In-Reply-To: <380C9B6F.924E47F8@home.com> Message-ID: Any idea what causes the pin breakage described below? George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Tue, 19 Oct 1999, Doug Coward wrote: > > ------------------------------ > > > > Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 14:41:47 -0400 > "Bill Sudbrink" said: > > I've hunted around on the web to no avail... > > Can anybody give me the specs on these? > > According to my Tandon OEM Operating and Service Manual > for the TM100-1 and TM100-2: > > Tracks per inch 48 TPI both drives > Tracks per drive TM100-1 40 tracks, TM100-2 80 tracks > Disk Rotational Speed 300 RPM +/- 1.5% > Motor Start Time 250 milliseconds > Motor Stop Time 150 milliseconds > Seek Time,track to track 5 milliseconds > Head Settling Time 15 milliseconds > Ave Track Access Time 75 milliseconds > Typ. Recording Modes FM,MFM,MMFM > Data Transfer Rate 250,000 bits per second > Unformated Cap. TM100-1 250Kb per disk, TM100-2 500Kb per disk > > Bill, > Let me know if you need a copy of this. Thanks again for the C4P boot > disks. The C4P-MF is coming along nicely. The power supply checks out > and I'm pulling every socketed chip and reseating it during the > cleaning. > So far, I've found 5 chips with pins broken down inside the sockets. > Fortunately, I was able to remove the pins from the sockets. > Now I just need to pick-up some replacement 8T26 bus driver/receivers > and then check all of those 2114s on the two 527 Ram boards and I'll > be ready to fire this thing up. :) > --Doug > ==================================================== > Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com (work) > Sr. Software Eng. mranalog@home.com (home) > Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com > Sunnyvale,CA > > Curator > Analog Computer Museum and History Center > http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog > ==================================================== > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Oct 19 13:46:45 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: DEC In-Reply-To: <19991019144210187.AAA224@mail.bee.net@smtp.bee.net> Message-ID: <199910191747.TAA19533@mail2.siemens.de> Well, I don't like to push anyone, but I still need some hints what a working PDP 8f is worth, or until which amount it isn't a compleete rip off. AFAIK at least two disk, fro 8" floppy and one tape drive is included (no idea about the types, since I'm no DEC-o-maniac at all). The machine is still in use, but may be replaced at any moment (replacement PC already set up). Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From bill at chipware.com Tue Oct 19 13:25:21 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: Pins broken in sockets? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000d01bf1a5f$4de0d9e0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > Any idea what causes the pin breakage described below? > > So far, I've found 5 chips with pins broken down inside the sockets. > > Fortunately, I was able to remove the pins from the sockets. Not a clue. In my recent/ongoing IMSAI restoration, the Cromemco 4FDC floppy disk controller had three chips with one pin each broken in the socket. Each was broken where the pin narrows down. Bad ASCII art: | | | | \ / \ / | | < BREAK HERE | | \ / - Maybe they were stressed when originally inserted and additional thermal stress finally broke them. Also, in my case, all of the exposed metal on all of the pins on all of the chips was tarnished, almost black. Maybe the tarnishing process had something to do with it. Bill Sudbrink From bill at chipware.com Tue Oct 19 13:36:21 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives In-Reply-To: <380C9B6F.924E47F8@home.com> Message-ID: <001201bf1a60$d7357290$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > Bill, > Let me know if you need a copy of this. Thanks again for the C4P boot > disks. The C4P-MF is coming along nicely. The power supply checks out > and I'm pulling every socketed chip and reseating it during the > cleaning. > So far, I've found 5 chips with pins broken down inside the sockets. > Fortunately, I was able to remove the pins from the sockets. > Now I just need to pick-up some replacement 8T26 bus driver/receivers > and then check all of those 2114s on the two 527 Ram boards and I'll > be ready to fire this thing up. :) > --Doug Great to hear. Again, I hope that the disks survived the trips through the airport metal detectors and that our drives are aligned close enough for them to work. I have a fairly large stash of untested 2114s if you can't find any locally. Remember, you can always start out with only one 527 board to see how things are going. Bill From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 19 12:45:56 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:59 2005 Subject: Preventing cartridge tape stickiness In-Reply-To: <199910190225.WAA26014@smarty.smart.net> from "R. D. Davis" at Oct 18, 99 10:25:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 983 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991019/ea5e4b2c/attachment.ksh From elvey at hal.com Tue Oct 19 14:03:09 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives In-Reply-To: <001201bf1a60$d7357290$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <199910191903.MAA01698@civic.hal.com> "Bill Sudbrink" wrote: > > Bill, > > Let me know if you need a copy of this. Thanks again for the C4P boot > > disks. The C4P-MF is coming along nicely. The power supply checks out > > and I'm pulling every socketed chip and reseating it during the > > cleaning. > > So far, I've found 5 chips with pins broken down inside the sockets. > > Fortunately, I was able to remove the pins from the sockets. > > Now I just need to pick-up some replacement 8T26 bus driver/receivers > > and then check all of those 2114s on the two 527 Ram boards and I'll > > be ready to fire this thing up. :) > > --Doug > Great to hear. Again, I hope that the disks survived the > trips through the airport metal detectors and that our > drives are aligned close enough for them to work. I have > a fairly large stash of untested 2114s if you can't find > any locally. Remember, you can always start out with only > one 527 board to see how things are going. > > Bill Hi Doug Watch out for the Jamco 2114's. The last bunch I got were more than 70% bad. These are old parts that they get from various sources and they have no way to test them. Of course, they are glade to replace any that are bad but then you become their tester, at little cost. Dwight From elvey at hal.com Tue Oct 19 14:09:50 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: Pins broken in sockets? In-Reply-To: <000d01bf1a5f$4de0d9e0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <199910191909.MAA01703@civic.hal.com> "Bill Sudbrink" wrote: > > | | > | | > \ / > \ / > | | < BREAK HERE > | | > \ / > - Hi What I've seem in the past is corrosion. It is usually also related to the plating being cracked during assembly. The two work against each other, the crack makes a localized place that the mosture and any stray salts or chemicals can hide and do its work. Having the pins plated actually makes this problem worse because of the differences in metals. The blackened leads are those that have a high amount of silver in the plating. Normally, these will work well be just reseating. They still have the problem if the plating is fractured. Dwight From af-list at wfi-inc.com Tue Oct 19 14:30:32 1999 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: Preventing cartridge tape stickiness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I talked to a data recovery specialist a while back on the bus from the San Francisco airport into the city about just these things. He was telling me (in addition to lots of other interesting things about coaxing data from "hopeless" media) that they use a special lubricant to separate sticky tape apart. Is there something that would work the same way available to the general computer-using populace? Also, since it's just magnetic media, couldn't you disassemble the tape and soak it in warm water, then try to hang it somewhere to dry? I've done the same things with floppy disks that had "mystery" spills on them that stuck the media to the inside of the housing... Just musing, Aaron On Tue, 19 Oct 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > destroyed when I tried to read it. Not sure how to try to preserve the > > rest of the data, written with the Stut (the streaming tape utilitu > > software) software, that's still on the tape - any ideas? > > Am I correct this is a QIC11 tape, 4 track, written on a Sidewinder or > similar? > > You are going to have problems. I assume that when the tape stuck > together, it pulled some oxide off the tape, and that there are now > transparent patches in the middle of the data area. The EOT (and BOT) > detection on these drives is optical, and will be triggered by this damage. > > My guess is that the Sidewider drive iteself is going to be unable to get > the data blocks off the tape. The 'Intellegent Controller' (Archive's > term for the QIC-02 to QIC36 interface board) is not going to allow you > to read past what it thinks is the end of the tape. > > And unless you can get the drive to read blocks off the tape, there's > nothing you can do by messing about with stut on the host. > > > -tony > > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Oct 19 14:12:05 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: Approaching Scrappers In-Reply-To: <19991019.092530.218.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: >on them, but to no avail. They have bigger fish to fry >(like aircraft fuselage assembly jigs, for example). Man I am really suffering from rejection. One of the salvage joints I like just made the back room closed to everybody including me. Bigger fish to fry, insurance, theft, etc. and now nobody can look in the boxes. I'm getting a bit shaky already, and the withdrawal hasn't even hit strong yet. I gotta find a new yard to poke in soon, or who knows what could happen (I might fix the upstairs toilet or something crazy). Maybe my point is approach with caution. Like it or not, you aren't the thing that pays the bills at the end of the month. They may like that cash once in awhile, but don't do ANYTHING to disturb the main money flow. Help out if you can and the person wants it, ie sort out a box of cables etc. Nothing gets you in tighter with a scrapper than giving them leads. Give them a contact that pans out with a contract, or even a one time deal, and they may even answer your phone calls. From donm at cts.com Tue Oct 19 15:00:14 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Oct 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: By the way, in my earlier remarks about the 100 tpi Tandon drive, I alleged that it was a TM100-4A. WRONG! It is a TM100-4R. Guess I need new glasses :) - don > > According to my Tandon OEM Operating and Service Manual > > for the TM100-1 and TM100-2: > > > > Tracks per inch 48 TPI both drives > > Tracks per drive TM100-1 40 tracks, TM100-2 80 tracks > > While "CORRECT" in some twisted perverted way, that is VERY misleading. > Many folks reading that would misinterpret it as implying 80 tracks per > side (aka 96TPI), which it ISN'T. The -2 is the double sided version of > the -1. It is 40 tracks per side. Perhaps it's time to do as the > hard-drive manufacturers did and change the terminology. Both the -1 and > -2 are 40 CYLINDER. > > > Disk Rotational Speed 300 RPM +/- 1.5% > > Motor Start Time 250 milliseconds > > Motor Stop Time 150 milliseconds > > Seek Time,track to track 5 milliseconds > > Head Settling Time 15 milliseconds > > Ave Track Access Time 75 milliseconds > > Typ. Recording Modes FM,MFM,MMFM > > Data Transfer Rate 250,000 bits per second > > "Data Transfer Rate" is not a meaningful spec in this context! > Particularly following the acknowledgement that the drive was suitable for > recording modes besides MFM! > > > Unformated Cap. TM100-1 250Kb per disk, TM100-2 500Kb per disk > "Unformatted Cap." is assumed to be MFM. > > > BTW, the IBM "Hardware Maintenance and Service" manuals for the PC and XT > have a lot of pretty pictures of mechanical disassembly of Tandon TM 100-2 > drives. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > > From ddameron at earthlink.net Tue Oct 19 12:38:36 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: Pins broken in sockets? In-Reply-To: <000d01bf1a5f$4de0d9e0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19991019123836.23ff0646@earthlink.net> At 02:25 PM 10/19/99 -0400, Bill wrote: >> Any idea what causes the pin breakage described below? >> > So far, I've found 5 chips with pins broken down inside the sockets. >> > Fortunately, I was able to remove the pins from the sockets. > >Not a clue. In my recent/ongoing IMSAI restoration, the >Cromemco 4FDC floppy disk controller had three chips with >one pin each broken in the socket. Each was broken where >the pin narrows down. Bad ASCII art: Hmmm, another Cromemco board bad this way? I found the pins not only tarnished black but corroded through on a 16KZ, usually in a group on the same IC. The bad chips were all made by TI. Maybe there was some chemical residue from Cromemco's wave soldering that did this? Anyway, I had to use tweezers to remove the end narrow portion of the pins from the sockets. -Dave From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Oct 19 15:15:06 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: DEC Message-ID: <19991019201506.8769.rocketmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Hans Franke wrote: > Well, I don't like to push anyone, but I still need some hints > what a working PDP 8f is worth, or until which amount it isn't > a compleete rip off. Recently on eOverpay, a friend of mine got over $400 for an as-is, not guaranteed to do more than not smoke PDP-8/L with no peripherals, software or docs. > AFAIK at least two disk, fro 8" floppy and > one tape drive is included (no idea about the types, since I'm > no DEC-o-maniac at all). The types make all the difference if someone wants a "real" price as opposed to a "haul it away" price. If I had to guess, I'd expect that it had a pair of RK05's, an RX01 and a TS03. It's only a guess, but it's a somewhat typical pure-DEC system. There's the possibility of third party stuff at any turn. What would I pay for it? Not more than a few hundred. Of course, that means that many others would no doubt snatch it out from under me, but them's the breaks. I'm not going to pay $1000+ for an -8. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From daniel at internet.look.ca Tue Oct 19 15:16:34 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: Approaching Scrappers Message-ID: <020301bf1a6e$d7ecac40$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> You are quite right Mike. I personally know some of the owners/controllers of some of the largest scrap companies (thats how I get all my minis) and the guys I deal with get contracts to level factories and mills. They don't know what a PDP 8 is and don't care. They want to either relocate some of the major machinery or melt it before setting the explosives in the building. Most of these companies don't care if you'd be willing to pay $1000 or even $2000 for a PDP as most of the contracts they get are worth millions. Best approach I have found is accept ANY and ALL minis/mainframes that come their way. I don't dicker with them and don't him and ha... If they have an old Wang or some old IBM then I take it anyway and scrap it for parts... A company I am going into at the end of this month has minis that were installed before 1968. No one has any idea what they are and no one cares. The factory is being levelled in middle November and anything that is left will have the building dropped on it. (I did however find out from a prior purchasing officer that the systems I am pulling out are: Vax 11/780 - yuck, I'll trash that. IBM 360 and/or Classic PDP 8 (seems they possibly had both) and other minis that controlled various processes The controller refered to old system as a "huge computer that filled up a room , we didn't get rid of it because it wasn't worth moving". If you have deep pockets to buy every computer mini they find in an old factory then you can score quite often. john -----Original Message----- From: Mike Ford To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 3:36 PM Subject: Re: Approaching Scrappers >>on them, but to no avail. They have bigger fish to fry >>(like aircraft fuselage assembly jigs, for example). > >Man I am really suffering from rejection. One of the salvage joints I like >just made the back room closed to everybody including me. Bigger fish to >fry, insurance, theft, etc. and now nobody can look in the boxes. I'm >getting a bit shaky already, and the withdrawal hasn't even hit strong yet. >I gotta find a new yard to poke in soon, or who knows what could happen (I >might fix the upstairs toilet or something crazy). > >Maybe my point is approach with caution. Like it or not, you aren't the >thing that pays the bills at the end of the month. They may like that cash >once in awhile, but don't do ANYTHING to disturb the main money flow. Help >out if you can and the person wants it, ie sort out a box of cables etc. > >Nothing gets you in tighter with a scrapper than giving them leads. Give >them a contact that pans out with a contract, or even a one time deal, and >they may even answer your phone calls. > > From bill at chipware.com Tue Oct 19 15:28:44 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: Pins broken in sockets? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.19991019123836.23ff0646@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <001301bf1a70$89e4dd40$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > >> Any idea what causes the pin breakage described below? > >> > So far, I've found 5 chips with pins broken down inside the sockets. > >> > Fortunately, I was able to remove the pins from the sockets. > > > >Not a clue. In my recent/ongoing IMSAI restoration, the > >Cromemco 4FDC floppy disk controller had three chips with > >one pin each broken in the socket. Each was broken where > >the pin narrows down. Bad ASCII art: > Hmmm, another Cromemco board bad this way? I found the pins not only > tarnished black but corroded through on a 16KZ, usually in a group on the > same IC. The bad chips were all made by TI. Maybe there was some chemical > residue from Cromemco's wave soldering that did this? Anyway, I had to use > tweezers to remove the end narrow portion of the pins from the sockets. > -Dave You know, you're right. It is only the TI chips. The WD FD1771B is clean and shiny. So are the single Fairchild, RCA and National Semi chips on the board. I had assumed that those had been replaced later, but the 1771 probably was not. Bill From donm at cts.com Tue Oct 19 15:38:01 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives In-Reply-To: <199910191635.JAA01539@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Oct 1999, Dwight Elvey wrote: > Don Maslin wrote: > > Well, the Shugart 801s and 851s had a jumper that permitted selecting > > between 800/850 characteristics and 801/851 characteristics. The > > difference is hopefully explained by the following: > > > > > Some of the old 8" drives (Shugarts included) did have the hard-sector > > jumpers, but that was to accomodate a peculiarity in the 8" interface. > > Hi > I thought the difference between the 800 and 801 was that > one had the clock separator and the other didn't? > Dwight Well, the 800/801 OEM manual speaks to a 'sector separator' which is bypassed when the 800 trace is intact. The 850/851 manual, on the other hand, speaks to a 'data separator' which is invoked when the 851 jumper is installed. I guess both provide comparable capability, depending on whether you want to 'see' the sector pulse or not. - don From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Oct 19 15:40:52 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: DEC Message-ID: <991019164052.236005f1@trailing-edge.com> >> AFAIK at least two disk, fro 8" floppy and >> one tape drive is included (no idea about the types, since I'm >> no DEC-o-maniac at all). >The types make all the difference if someone wants a "real" price as >opposed to a "haul it away" price. If I had to guess, I'd expect that >it had a pair of RK05's, an RX01 and a TS03. It's only a guess, but >it's a somewhat typical pure-DEC system. My guess would be a TU56 (DECTape) drive rather than TS03, but again, we're just guessing :-). Reminds me of the apocryphal story of the old lady who's son died in a hunting accident. She calls up a local car dealer, and asks how much her son's car might be worth. Dealer asks her what the car is, and she replies "a '67 Chevy". The dealer says that such an old car probably isn't worth much more than $100 on today's market, so she puts an ad in the paper and sells the car right away, for $100. Of course, the buyer was very happy with his purchase, for it turned out this '67 Chevy was a finely-preserved Corvette Stingray! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Oct 19 16:19:10 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: Approaching Scrappers In-Reply-To: <020301bf1a6e$d7ecac40$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> from daniel at "Oct 19, 1999 4:16:34 pm" Message-ID: <199910192119.RAA02517@pechter.dyndns.org> > You are quite right Mike. > The factory is being levelled in middle November and anything that is left > will have the building dropped on it. (I did however find out from a prior > purchasing officer that the systems I am pulling out are: > > Vax 11/780 - yuck, I'll trash that. Oh nooooo! My favorite toy. The 11/03 external 32 bit Virtual Memory Unit and high speed floating point. At least pull the 11/03 and RX01 floppy drive unit out and save them. The unit is serpentine QBus and I'd love to have one of these (even wouthout the Vax) > If you have deep pockets to buy every computer mini they find in an old > factory then you can score quite often. > > john > Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 19 15:52:51 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: Preventing cartridge tape stickiness In-Reply-To: from "Aaron Christopher Finney" at Oct 19, 99 12:30:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1277 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991019/d25b5bd1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 19 16:02:02 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: Fixing an ST412? Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1137 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991019/35170ec4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 19 15:47:39 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 19, 99 09:49:16 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1354 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991019/d18354a0/attachment.ksh From jrice at texoma.net Tue Oct 19 16:31:29 1999 From: jrice at texoma.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: Approaching Scrappers References: <199910192119.RAA02517@pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <380CE330.D4EE706E@texoma.net> I was given an 11/870 last year in november and since i'm not into DEC systems, I advertised it here as available for pickup...no body seemed interested so it went to the scapper in January. Bill Pechter wrote: > > You are quite right Mike. > > > The factory is being levelled in middle November and anything that is left > > will have the building dropped on it. (I did however find out from a prior > > purchasing officer that the systems I am pulling out are: > > > > > Vax 11/780 - yuck, I'll trash that. > > Oh nooooo! My favorite toy. The 11/03 external 32 bit Virtual Memory Unit > and high speed floating point. > > At least pull the 11/03 and RX01 floppy drive unit out and save them. > The unit is serpentine QBus and I'd love to have one of these > (even wouthout the Vax) > > > If you have deep pockets to buy every computer mini they find in an old > > factory then you can score quite often. > > > > john > > > > Bill > > --- > bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org > Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, > The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From jrice at texoma.net Tue Oct 19 16:43:37 1999 From: jrice at texoma.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: Approaching Scrappers References: <199910192119.RAA02517@pechter.dyndns.org> <380CE330.D4EE706E@texoma.net> Message-ID: <380CE609.F22A809E@texoma.net> Opps, that was supposed to be an 11/780 James Rice wrote: > I was given an 11/870 last year in november and since i'm not into DEC systems, > I advertised it here as available for pickup...no body seemed interested so it > went to the scapper in January. > > Bill Pechter wrote: > > > > You are quite right Mike. > > > > > The factory is being levelled in middle November and anything that is left > > > will have the building dropped on it. (I did however find out from a prior > > > purchasing officer that the systems I am pulling out are: > > > > > > > > Vax 11/780 - yuck, I'll trash that. > > > > Oh nooooo! My favorite toy. The 11/03 external 32 bit Virtual Memory Unit > > and high speed floating point. > > > > At least pull the 11/03 and RX01 floppy drive unit out and save them. > > The unit is serpentine QBus and I'd love to have one of these > > (even wouthout the Vax) > > > > > If you have deep pockets to buy every computer mini they find in an old > > > factory then you can score quite often. > > > > > > john > > > > > > > Bill > > > > --- > > bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org > > Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, > > The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Oct 19 16:48:33 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: OSI C4P-MF board (was Re: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives) Message-ID: <19991019214833.14404.rocketmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> --- Doug Coward wrote: > The C4P-MF is coming along nicely. Thanks for mentioning this. One of the things I found in my weekend's DEC excavation is my C4P-MF motherboard. Someone on this list, perhaps you, Doug, expressed an interest in it. I know I have the service docs in a different box, but for now, I've found the board itself. The 40-pin chips have gone wandering (probably in my parts drawers); I'd like to know what sockets are supposed to contain what parts (probably a 6502A and a couple of 6821's) so I can locate them and put them back. I will probably never run across a real Challenger-4 for this to go into, and I have no interest at this point in fabricating the necessary accessories to make this useful. I anyone wants this board, contact me offline. I'm interested in trades over cash - 1970's micros of most kinds are interesting to me. Enjoy, -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Oct 19 16:49:41 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: DEC In-Reply-To: <199910191747.TAA19533@mail2.siemens.de> References: <19991019144210187.AAA224@mail.bee.net@smtp.bee.net> Message-ID: <4.1.19991019144334.03ef0760@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 06:47 PM 10/19/99 +0001, Hans wrote: >Well, I don't like to push anyone, but I still need some hints >what a working PDP 8f is worth, or until which amount it isn't >a compleete rip off. AFAIK at least two disk, fro 8" floppy and >one tape drive is included (no idea about the types, since I'm >no DEC-o-maniac at all). The machine is still in use, but may >be replaced at any moment (replacement PC already set up). Can't know without knowing the peripherals. Generally $500 for a working Omnibus '8 is a "fair" price. The E-bay price is a bit higher than that :-) One that has a working DECTape drive (the smallish spools of tape that whoosh back and forth) is easily worth $1,000 in pretty much any market. (those DECTapes are _hard_ to find). If it comes with the DEC LT33 (Teletype ASR-33 modified by DEC) then it is worth and extra $300 or so. Now having said all that, here is the caveats: 1) The 8/F and 8/M were by far the most common OMNIBUS '8s so come out at the low end of the scale (8/Es are more valuable and earlier 8's like the /I, and /L are better still.) 2) If the think doesn't have the programmers front panel it will be worth significantly _less_ since the blinkenlights are the "cool" part. 3) If it has been beat up to the point where it can't be restored, then that would be cause for a de-rating of the value as well. 4) If it has non-DEC stuff in it (like the memory is all 3rd party non-DEC MOS RAM) then that would negatively affect the price. (My opinion of course ... YMMV) --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 19 16:55:44 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > > According to my Tandon OEM Operating and Service Manual > > > for the TM100-1 and TM100-2: > > > Tracks per inch 48 TPI both drives > > > Tracks per drive TM100-1 40 tracks, TM100-2 80 tracks > > While "CORRECT" in some twisted perverted way, that is VERY misleading. > On Tue, 19 Oct 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > No, it's correct. Not only in some 'twisted perverted way'. > The TM100-2 has 40 cylinders. Each contains 2 tracks (one on each side of > the disk). That's 80 tracks total. > And yes, this does mean that a PC 3.5" drive has 160 tracks (in 80 > cylinders). I've seen that mentioned in manuals before as well.... > > Many folks reading that would misinterpret it as implying 80 tracks per > > side (aka 96TPI), which it ISN'T. The -2 is the double sided version of > > the -1. It is 40 tracks per side. Perhaps it's time to do as the > > hard-drive manufacturers did and change the terminology. Both the -1 and > > -2 are 40 CYLINDER. > The term 'cylinder' applies to floppy drives and hard drives AFAIK. While perhaps my use opf "twisted or perverted" may be bothersome, you surely would not disagree that some people [incorrectly] refer to the 100-4 and 1.2M drives as an "80 track" drive. And you certainly won't disagree that use of the word "cylinder" completely avoids the entire ambiguity. Tandon does not appear to have EVER used the term "cylinder". Perhaps some other flopy companies may have, but I can [unfortunately] only seem to find it used by hard-drive companies. If they HAD used "cylinders", then we wouldnb't be having this discussion. In MICROCOMPUTERS, rather than DEC iron, SS v DS typically preceded 40T^H Cylinder v 80 T^H Cylinder. Therefore, in SOME circles, "TRACK" was used to refer to "tracks per side" rather than TOTAL tracks, just as "Sectors" meant "sectors per track" rather than TOTAL sectors. > > BTW, the IBM "Hardware Maintenance and Service" manuals for the PC and XT > > have a lot of pretty pictures of mechanical disassembly of Tandon TM 100-2 > > drives. > Amazing!. The PC/AT one simply shows you how to replace the entire > (half-height) drives in that machine. > But the O&A Techref does contain several versions of the schematic for > these units. As did the original Tech Ref (include schematics) before they split it into multiple books. That sure is a major drag when stuff that used to be included in manuals gets dropped. 'course now I need to find my manual to confirm what I had said about the drive info being there :-) -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From elvey at hal.com Tue Oct 19 16:57:52 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199910192157.OAA01801@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > The term 'cylinder' applies to floppy drives and hard drives AFAIK. Sectors, Tracks and Cylinders are three different measurements. If it is a single sided floppy, Tracks = Cylinders. If it is double sided, Tracks = 2 * Cylinders. Confusing huh? Dwight From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 19 17:08:26 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives In-Reply-To: <199910192157.OAA01801@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Oct 1999, Dwight Elvey wrote: > Sectors, Tracks and Cylinders are three different measurements. > If it is a single sided floppy, Tracks = Cylinders. > If it is double sided, Tracks = 2 * Cylinders. > Confusing huh? If used consistently, that's fine. And it is better than much of common usage. But there are also some people [right or wrong] who use "tracks" to mean "tracks per side", which we call "cylinders". Their usage as such makes it difficult to tell when they say "80 track" whether they are referring to a 360K or 1.2M drive. In a similar way, there are some people who call 360K "9 sector", and some who call it "720 sector". But at least there, there isn't any overlap of the same number for two different usages. Surely EVERYBODY would agree that "40 cylinder, SS or DS" is significantly less ambiguous than "40 track v 80 track" when referring to TM 100-1 amd -2. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Oct 19 17:20:22 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: DEC Message-ID: <991019182022.236005f1@trailing-edge.com> >4) If it has non-DEC stuff in it (like the memory is all 3rd party non-DEC >MOS RAM) then that would negatively affect the price. Some of the most valuable/useful stuff you might find in a PDP-(anything) can be the non-DEC stuff. For example, I wouldn't complain at all if I opened up an 8/E and found the OMTI Omnibus SCSI host adapter inside! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 19 17:56:56 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 19, 99 02:55:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4335 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991019/dc83453d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 19 18:01:52 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: DEC In-Reply-To: <991019182022.236005f1@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Oct 19, 99 06:20:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1360 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991020/1fe39470/attachment.ksh From philclayton at mindspring.com Tue Oct 19 18:48:46 1999 From: philclayton at mindspring.com (Phil Clayton / Computer Automation) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: My Biggest GRIPE, period... Message-ID: <006701bf1a8c$7d40b700$c5358ad1@server> >> I respectfully request that the parties discussing Ebay in gory detail >> please spare us all and take it to E-mail. >> >> Sheesh... > >I second that motion! > >Steve Robertson - For what its worth I think most discussions on the forum will naturally end when everyone is tired of the subject, and not when one or two individuals say it should stop. I think "My Biggest GRIPE" was a good topic since most of us trade on eBay, I think it was an important discussion. I know the subject has been on this forum many times before, but there are new users here and I am sure they learned many things from the discussion on the In's and Out's of eBay trading.. Personally I don't read discussions on PDP-8's or Vax's, Have never even seen one, and likely never will.. My interest is mainly Pre-DOS Micro computers. To be honest about 50% of all that's discussed here is not in my main interest, but I have no right to tell anyone here not to talk about the subject.. So if you need to turn on your "eBay" filter, I will just turn on my PDP-8 filter, mine is called "Press the delete key" it only takes 1/2 a second.. Phil.. From danburrows at mindspring.com Tue Oct 19 18:36:02 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: tektronix 4006 terminal Message-ID: <00ae01bf1a8d$7f23d970$d252e780@tower166.office> Desktop 4800 baud max. Otherwise the same spec's as a 4010 IIRC. I might still have a manual somewhere. A company I used to work for used them on their low end mass spec's. Dan -----Original Message----- From: emanuel stiebler To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 12:58 PM Subject: tektronix 4006 terminal >Hi, > >anybody knows any spec of it ? > >Anybody looking for one ? > >cheers, >emanuel > From af-list at wfi-inc.com Tue Oct 19 19:00:52 1999 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: Power supply pinout for HP Windows Client??? Message-ID: I got one of these today, a 425sx, sans powersupply. The sticker on the bootom is scratched and I can't read the power requirements, though it looks like it might read 20V....something. It's got a 4-pin jack on the side for power, if that helps... Aaron From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 19 19:17:10 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: Corrupted terminology (Was: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Oct 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > There are some other terms that seem to have been corrupted by common > usage. A PC CGA monitor and a PC VGA monitor are _both_ RGB monitors > . . . Don't forget "Monochrome monitor" to refer to MDA compatible. And we probably shouldn't resume discussion of what a "Megabyte" is :-) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From donm at cts.com Tue Oct 19 19:54:17 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Oct 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Tue, 19 Oct 1999, Dwight Elvey wrote: > > Sectors, Tracks and Cylinders are three different measurements. > > If it is a single sided floppy, Tracks = Cylinders. > > If it is double sided, Tracks = 2 * Cylinders. > > Confusing huh? > > If used consistently, that's fine. And it is better than much of common > usage. But there are also some people [right or wrong] who use "tracks" > to mean "tracks per side", which we call "cylinders". Their usage as such > makes it difficult to tell when they say "80 track" whether they are > referring to a 360K or 1.2M drive. But let's muddy the conversational waters a bit :) I have no quarrel with describing a 360k DOS disk as 40 cylinders, but let's consider a disk such as the Xerox 820-II 5.25" DSDD. Unlike the DOS disk, the Xerox does not read side 0 first and then continue on to side 1. Instead, it reads track 0 side 0 and then goes on to read track 1 side 0. Is not it reasonable - perhaps more reasonable - to call the Xerox disk an 80 track disk? Or better, an 80 track 48 tpi disk. - don > In a similar way, there are some people who call 360K "9 sector", and some > who call it "720 sector". But at least there, there isn't any overlap of > the same number for two different usages. > > > Surely EVERYBODY would agree that "40 cylinder, SS or DS" is significantly > less ambiguous than "40 track v 80 track" when referring to TM 100-1 amd > -2. > > > -- > Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com > XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com > 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 > Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Oct 19 20:07:40 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: Fixing an ST412? Message-ID: <000601bf1a97$9a504940$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Yes, I believe I have one. I can't lay hands on the manual right away, but maybe by 10:00 pm (it's about 6:20 pm now) I'll have it in hand. IIRC, the index pulse is generated from a hall sensor which looks at the spindle. So long as you get only one index pulse per revolution, and so long as those revolutions are close to the rated speed (60 Hz) they should satisfy nearly any controller's needs and allow the drive to be low-level formatted. Dick Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 3:33 PM Subject: Fixing an ST412? >Short question : Does anyone have a Shugart ST412 service manual? > >Long Question : As some people here know, I'm slowly rebuilding a DEC >rainbow. And today it got to the point where it was worth trying to boot >it. It booted fine from the RX50 floppy drive, but not from the RD51 (aka >ST412) winchester. > >A little bit of probinf with a LogicDart revealed that the drive was >producing no index pulses, although it was spinning. There are schematics >for the older version in the IBM O&A techref, and using these as a >reference, I quickly found that the index sensor itself was producing no >output. > >Off with the logic board, and I found that the index sensor was loose in >the clamp, and about 1/4" from the arms on the motor that trigger it. >I adjusted it closer, tightened it up, put it all together, and it seems >fine. The 'Bow boots from the winchester and seems to be able to run >programs, etc. > >What I want to know is is there a proper procedure for adjusting this >sensor? Is there a particular value quoted for the gap between the sensor >and the arms? > >As I said, it's OK now, but I might as well do it right. > >-tony > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 19 20:31:12 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: more weirdities (Was: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Oct 1999, Don Maslin wrote: > But let's muddy the conversational waters a bit :) I have no quarrel > with describing a 360k DOS disk as 40 cylinders, but let's consider a > disk such as the Xerox 820-II 5.25" DSDD. Unlike the DOS disk, the > Xerox does not read side 0 first and then continue on to side 1. > Instead, it reads track 0 side 0 and then goes on to read track 1 > side 0. Is not it reasonable - perhaps more reasonable - to call the > Xerox disk an 80 track disk? Or better, an 80 track 48 tpi disk. In addition to disk formats that use all of the sectors of one track, and then use all of the sectors of the same cylinder's track on the other side, and then advance to the next cylinder: Some formats (particularly ones that were once single sided, and then expanded into DS formats) use all of one side and then use all of the second side starting over at cylinder 0 of the second side. Some start over at a later cylinder of the second side (so that the same number of tracks are "Reserved/skipped" on both sides). Some use all of the first side and then use the second side counting DOWN. Thus, after Side 0 Cylinder 38, then side 0 cylinde 39, then Side 1 cylinder 39, then side 1 cylinder 38, . . . That eliminates having to do a seek back to track^H^H^H^H^H cylinder 0. Some that use various logical sector skewing will treat the entire cylinder as a track, thus using one or more sectors from one side followed by one or more sectors from the other side, back and forth. And then, there are some that are WEIRD. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From chris at mainecoon.com Tue Oct 19 20:24:57 1999 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: Diablo 31/33 drives Message-ID: <380D19E9.31C64D1C@mainecoon.com> I'm looking for a diablo 31 or 33 drive (the 31 was the one with the door, the 33 is the one that you have to rip apart to get your pack out). I'm also looking for a Decision 3150 controller for same. While I'm wishing for the impossible, I might as well add the other (current) items on my wish-list: EDS mux boards for the Nova bus An Eclipse S/200 An Eclipse S/130 A paper tape reader. Hell, I'd be happy with an ASR 33 at this point. And in the only-in-my-dreams category: An original ("baby") nova or supernova An Eclipse S/230 Of course, if it's a 16 bit DG machine, something that plugs into same or something that just looks good sitting next to it I'm interested. Cash, trades or body parts. Thanks, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com chris@dtiinc.com http://www.mainecoon.com http://www.dtiinc.com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Oct 19 21:51:04 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: Tek 4014 was Re: tektronix 4006 terminal In-Reply-To: <00ae01bf1a8d$7f23d970$d252e780@tower166.office> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991019215104.228f5b08@mailhost.intellistar.net> Speaking of Tektronix stuff, I spotted two Tektronix 4014s in a surplus place today. Is anyone interested in them? Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Oct 19 21:53:50 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: Power supply pinout for HP Windows Client??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991019215350.3bbfc2e4@mailhost.intellistar.net> Aaron, It sounds like it might use the same power supply that some of the HP plotters use. It has four pins, one is gounded and two others have 20 VAC and the last pin is the center tap. I don't remember which pin is which but I have one somewhere if you need the pinout. Joe At 05:00 PM 10/19/99 -0700, you wrote: > >I got one of these today, a 425sx, sans powersupply. The sticker on the >bootom is scratched and I can't read the power requirements, though it >looks like it might read 20V....something. It's got a 4-pin jack on the >side for power, if that helps... > >Aaron > > > From donm at cts.com Tue Oct 19 21:56:36 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: more weirdities (Was: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Oct 1999, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Tue, 19 Oct 1999, Don Maslin wrote: > > But let's muddy the conversational waters a bit :) I have no quarrel > > with describing a 360k DOS disk as 40 cylinders, but let's consider a > > disk such as the Xerox 820-II 5.25" DSDD. Unlike the DOS disk, the > > Xerox does not read side 0 first and then continue on to side 1. > > Instead, it reads track 0 side 0 and then goes on to read track 1 > > side 0. Is not it reasonable - perhaps more reasonable - to call the > > Xerox disk an 80 track disk? Or better, an 80 track 48 tpi disk. > > In addition to disk formats that use all of the sectors of one track, and > then use all of the sectors of the same cylinder's track on the other > side, and then advance to the next cylinder: > > Some formats (particularly ones that were once single sided, and then > expanded into DS formats) use all of one side and then use all of the > second side starting over at cylinder 0 of the second side. > > Some start over at a later cylinder of the second side (so that the same > number of tracks are "Reserved/skipped" on both sides). > > Some use all of the first side and then use the second side counting DOWN. > Thus, after Side 0 Cylinder 38, then side 0 cylinde 39, then Side 1 > cylinder 39, then side 1 cylinder 38, . . . > That eliminates having to do a seek back to track^H^H^H^H^H cylinder 0. > > Some that use various logical sector skewing will treat the entire > cylinder as a track, thus using one or more sectors from one side followed > by one or more sectors from the other side, back and forth. > > > And then, there are some that are WEIRD. Nah! Really? - don > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > > From daniel at internet.look.ca Tue Oct 19 22:01:40 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: Diablo 31/33 drives Message-ID: <000d01bf1aa7$6f3ea3e0$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> Hi Chris. I just picked up a Nova 2 loaded with a Diablo 40 series drive, graphics unit, Kennedy 9800 tape, and a "network" interface. Along with it came 6 large boxes filled with manuals (schematics, interfacing, theory, software manuals, and languages,revision notes,nuclear reactor control software......). Also came was 130 pounds (I repeat 130 pounds) of paper tape software including every possible version of rdos, basic, fortran, algol, test tapes, (other languages)....[many unopened and not installed].... If you are looking for any documents or programs I probably have them and can make the images available to you. I have not powered up the system yet as I have to test everything first (and am too busy on the PDP-8/S finishing touches). john . -----Original Message----- From: Chris Kennedy To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 9:33 PM Subject: Diablo 31/33 drives >I'm looking for a diablo 31 or 33 drive (the 31 was the one with >the door, the 33 is the one that you have to rip apart to get >your pack out). I'm also looking for a Decision 3150 controller >for same. > >While I'm wishing for the impossible, I might as well add the >other (current) items on my wish-list: > >EDS mux boards for the Nova bus >An Eclipse S/200 >An Eclipse S/130 >A paper tape reader. Hell, I'd be happy with an ASR 33 at this point. > >And in the only-in-my-dreams category: > >An original ("baby") nova or supernova >An Eclipse S/230 > >Of course, if it's a 16 bit DG machine, something that plugs into >same or something that just looks good sitting next to it I'm >interested. Cash, trades or body parts. > >Thanks, >Chris >-- >Chris Kennedy >chris@mainecoon.com chris@dtiinc.com >http://www.mainecoon.com http://www.dtiinc.com > From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Oct 19 22:46:26 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: Tek 4014 was Re: tektronix 4006 terminal Message-ID: <19991020034626.7479.rocketmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> --- Joe wrote: > Speaking of Tektronix stuff, I spotted two Tektronix 4014s in a surplus > place today. Is anyone interested in them? Yes. Where are they? -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From pbboy at mindspring.com Wed Oct 20 00:40:17 1999 From: pbboy at mindspring.com (pbboy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? Message-ID: <380D55C1.C3503607@mindspring.com> I know its off-topic but i figured that since most of the poeple on this list work or have worked on the really big stuff you'd know better than most others. Say someone were to home-build a CPU from scratch using only individual components, no ICs only modern descrete(?) components. How big would the CPU be? For comparison lets say it would be an 8080 clone. Any guesses? pbboy From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Oct 20 02:23:35 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: Tek 4014 was Re: tektronix 4006 terminal In-Reply-To: <19991020034626.7479.rocketmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991020022335.232f1f3e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Ethan, They're in a surplus place near Orlando. They're covered with dust. They look like they've been there a LONG time. I have no idea what they want for them. Give me an idea of what they're worth. Joe At 08:46 PM 10/19/99 -0700, you wrote: > > >--- Joe wrote: >> Speaking of Tektronix stuff, I spotted two Tektronix 4014s in a surplus >> place today. Is anyone interested in them? > >Yes. Where are they? > >-ethan > > >===== >Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. >Please send all replies to > > erd@iname.com >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Oct 20 02:25:12 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? In-Reply-To: <380D55C1.C3503607@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991020022512.232f32e6@mailhost.intellistar.net> I'd say about the size of a HP 9100. But it isn't a 8080 clone. Joe At 01:40 AM 10/20/99 -0400, you wrote: >I know its off-topic but i figured that since most of the poeple on this >list work or have worked on the really big stuff you'd know better than >most others. > >Say someone were to home-build a CPU from scratch using only individual >components, no ICs only modern descrete(?) components. How big would the >CPU be? For comparison lets say it would be an 8080 clone. Any guesses? > >pbboy > From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Oct 20 00:53:45 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: VAXen (was Re: Approaching Scrappers) In-Reply-To: <380CE330.D4EE706E@texoma.net> (message from James Rice on Tue, 19 Oct 1999 16:31:29 -0500) References: <199910192119.RAA02517@pechter.dyndns.org> <380CE330.D4EE706E@texoma.net> Message-ID: <19991020055345.10825.qmail@brouhaha.com> > I was given an 11/870 last year in november and since i'm not into DEC > systems, I advertised it here as available for pickup...no body seemed > interested so it went to the scapper in January. Sigh. I either missed that one, or it was too far away, I forget which. I'd like a 780, 782, 785, or the little-known 787. If anyone has one in or near Silicon Valley, let me know. I'm mostly not interested in other VAXen; the 78x is about the newest DEC machine I'd want to own. Except for a 2020. Cheers, Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Oct 20 01:00:20 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? In-Reply-To: <380D55C1.C3503607@mindspring.com> (message from pbboy on Wed, 20 Oct 1999 01:40:17 -0400) References: <380D55C1.C3503607@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <19991020060020.10889.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Say someone were to home-build a CPU from scratch using only individual > components, no ICs only modern descrete(?) components. How big would the > CPU be? For comparison lets say it would be an 8080 clone. Any guesses? One of the vendors of bit-slice components (AMD 2900 or clone, I think) offered a board that emulated an 8080. In addition to being faster than an 8080, you could of course modify the microcode to add or change instructions. IIRC, it looked like the board had about fifty chips. If you didn't use a bit-slice, you'd have to use separate ALU, memory, and shifter chips, and you'd wind up with even more. The early microprocessor architectures were designed based on minimal transistor count for a single-chip implementation. This does not result in minimal chip count if you implement the equivalent in 7400-series chips. It is quite possible to design useful processors with a lot fewer TTL chips. From mranalog at home.com Wed Oct 20 03:45:27 1999 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives Message-ID: <380D8127.1D7BD9D7@home.com> I wrote: > Tracks per inch 48 TPI both drives > Tracks per drive TM100-1 40 tracks, TM100-2 80 tracks I usually read my copy of the ClassicCmp Digest between midnight and 1 o'clock (when I receive it). And if I wasn't so busy copying this out of the manual, I might have read what I was writing. :) Bill wrote: > | | > | | > \ / > \ / > | | < BREAK HERE > | | > \ / > - Thats just where they broke! I used one of my wife's sewing needles to pry them out of the sockets. And it's most likely they broke when I removed the chips from the sockets, but I'm not sure about that. Dave Dameron wrote: > The bad chips were all made by TI. Four of the 5 broken chips are TI 8T26s and the fifth is a TI 74123. --Doug ==================================================== Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com (work) Sr. Software Eng. mranalog@home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ==================================================== From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Wed Oct 20 04:58:51 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives Message-ID: <80256810.003727D4.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> > So far, I've found 5 chips with pins broken down inside the sockets. > Fortunately, I was able to remove the pins from the sockets. > Now I just need to pick-up some replacement 8T26 bus driver/receivers > and then check all of those 2114s on the two 527 Ram boards and I'll > be ready to fire this thing up. :) Doug, I hope you don't mean you need to replace the chips with broken pins. This happened to a ROM in my oldest PET when I was trying to reseat it (poor contacts in sockets - I eventually replaced them with decent sockets). I stuck a thin piece of metal - a staple, as I recall - into the socket where the pin was supposed to go, and soldered it to the stub of the pin. Worked a treat! Philip. This E-mail message is private and confidential and should only be read by those to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, reproduction, modification or publication of this communication is strictly prohibited. Please delete the message from your computer and destroy any copies. This message is not intended to be relied upon by any person without subsequent written confirmation of its contents. This company therefore disclaims all responsibility and accepts no liability of any kind which may arise from any person acting, or refraining from acting, upon the contents of the message without having had subsequent written confirmation. If you have received this communication in error, or if any problems occur in transmission please notify us immediately by telephone on +44 (0)2476 425474 From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Wed Oct 20 05:01:51 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives Message-ID: <80256810.00379E67.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> > Calling a DS 40 cylinder drive (like the ones in the original PC) an '80 > track drive' _is_ actually correct. > > > surely would not disagree that some people [incorrectly] refer to the > > 100-4 and 1.2M drives as an "80 track" drive. And you certainly won't > > However, I also agree with this. Common usage would call the PC 360K > drive a '40 track drive'. And I will also admit that I tend to make this > error myself :-( > > I will agree that the original statement is confusing, sure. And it's not > common usage. But it is still correct. Reminiscent of motoring in Germany. There the signs - and even the inhabitants - talk about speeds in km. NOT km/h, which is what they mean. Very confusing... Philip. This E-mail message is private and confidential and should only be read by those to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, reproduction, modification or publication of this communication is strictly prohibited. Please delete the message from your computer and destroy any copies. This message is not intended to be relied upon by any person without subsequent written confirmation of its contents. This company therefore disclaims all responsibility and accepts no liability of any kind which may arise from any person acting, or refraining from acting, upon the contents of the message without having had subsequent written confirmation. If you have received this communication in error, or if any problems occur in transmission please notify us immediately by telephone on +44 (0)2476 425474 From daniel at internet.look.ca Wed Oct 20 06:21:38 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? Message-ID: <004501bf1aed$472f0b60$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> A PDP-8 or a PDP-8/S. Both were made with transistors alone. PDP-8/S (filing cabinet) BTW: I am building an Intel 4004 or possible an 8008 with flip chip modules. Will tell you when I start it. john -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 2:12 AM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? >I'd say about the size of a HP 9100. But it isn't a 8080 clone. > > Joe > >At 01:40 AM 10/20/99 -0400, you wrote: >>I know its off-topic but i figured that since most of the poeple on this >>list work or have worked on the really big stuff you'd know better than >>most others. >> >>Say someone were to home-build a CPU from scratch using only individual >>components, no ICs only modern descrete(?) components. How big would the >>CPU be? For comparison lets say it would be an 8080 clone. Any guesses? >> >>pbboy >> > From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed Oct 20 07:53:51 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:00 2005 Subject: VAXen (was Re: Approaching Scrappers) In-Reply-To: <19991020055345.10825.qmail@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "Oct 20, 1999 5:53:45 am" Message-ID: <199910201253.IAA04146@pechter.dyndns.org> > > I was given an 11/870 last year in november and since i'm not into DEC > > systems, I advertised it here as available for pickup...no body seemed > > interested so it went to the scapper in January. > > Sigh. I either missed that one, or it was too far away, I forget which. > > I'd like a 780, 782, 785, or the little-known 787. If anyone has one > in or near Silicon Valley, let me know. OK, I'll bite. The 787 was what -- a 782 dual asymetrical machine made of 11/785's instead of the 11/780's in the 11/782. The 11/782 was the worst Vax invention known to man. This WAS the machine routed to East Germany (or was it the going to the USSR) back in the '80's and it was caught in Germany headed for Denmark. This was a big deal illegal "Supercomputer" export back then. This of course was followed up by DEC's insertion of "VAX when you care enough to steal the best" or something like it in the MicroVaxII chip mask. The multiprocessor 11/782 software didn't work well... I had to move 4mb of memory from the slave attached processor to the primary just to get the machine to backup. > > I'm mostly not interested in other VAXen; the 78x is about the newest > DEC machine I'd want to own. Except for a 2020. > > Cheers, > Eric Actually, my favorite is an 8650 with the RT11 front end T11 cpu. But the power and space requirement is a bit much. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Wed Oct 20 08:16:18 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? Message-ID: <80256810.004934F6.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> >> Say someone were to home-build a CPU from scratch using only individual >> components, no ICs only modern descrete(?) components. How big would the >> CPU be? For comparison lets say it would be an 8080 clone. Any guesses? > > One of the vendors of bit-slice components (AMD 2900 or clone, I think) > offered a board that emulated an 8080. In addition to being faster than > an 8080, you could of course modify the microcode to add or change > instructions. IIRC, it looked like the board had about fifty chips. > > If you didn't use a bit-slice, you'd have to use separate ALU, memory, > and shifter chips, and you'd wind up with even more. > > The early microprocessor architectures were designed based on minimal > transistor count for a single-chip implementation. This does not result > in minimal chip count if you implement the equivalent in 7400-series > chips. It is quite possible to design useful processors with a lot fewer > TTL chips. Er, Eric? He said, no ICs only modern discrete components... As Eric says, an 8080 clone or similar would not be good to do with TTL chips or something, but it might work well with discretes. How big? Depends on the routing technology: A few trannies to a PCB, standard modules where possible, do anything complicated on the backplane => as big as a PDB8 (which someone mentioned) - say a 2 foot cube. Something more modern, say a multilayer pcb covered with densely packed surface mount transistors => you might get it onto a board the size of an AT motherboard, or possibly two such boards (allow for plugs on one to go straight into sockets on the other, mount the boards side by side so you can place connectors in arbitrary locations over the board) Something in between is probably more practical - still pin through hole, single or possibly double sided, but with modern, denser PCB (or pen-wired) layouts, and not worrying about using standard modules (unlike DEC, you're not mass-producing) => it would probably be a rack full of Eurocards. (20 * 5 * 10 inches, roughly). Hmm, perhaps a double rack. 20 * 10 * 10. I haven't looked at transistor counts or packing densities so these are only guesses. My opinion (FWIW) is that while this might be a fun project, doing something with a machine that was originally designed this way (PDP8 again) might be more educational. Philip. This E-mail message is private and confidential and should only be read by those to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, reproduction, modification or publication of this communication is strictly prohibited. Please delete the message from your computer and destroy any copies. This message is not intended to be relied upon by any person without subsequent written confirmation of its contents. This company therefore disclaims all responsibility and accepts no liability of any kind which may arise from any person acting, or refraining from acting, upon the contents of the message without having had subsequent written confirmation. If you have received this communication in error, or if any problems occur in transmission please notify us immediately by telephone on +44 (0)2476 425474 From cfandt at netsync.net Wed Oct 20 08:27:09 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: Diablo 31/33 drives In-Reply-To: <000d01bf1aa7$6f3ea3e0$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> Message-ID: <4.1.19991020092457.00a84660@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 11:01 PM 10/19/99 -0400, daniel said something like: >Hi Chris. I just picked up a Nova 2 loaded with a Diablo 40 series drive, >graphics unit, Kennedy 9800 tape, and a "network" interface. Along with it >came 6 large boxes filled with manuals (schematics, interfacing, theory, >software manuals, and languages,revision notes,nuclear reactor control >software......). > >Also came was 130 pounds (I repeat 130 pounds) of paper tape software >including every possible version of rdos, basic, fortran, algol, test tapes, >(other languages)....[many unopened and not installed].... Jeeeez! A Nova 2 with all that paper!!!? Some folks get all the good luck!! Have fun with it! Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 20 08:36:59 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? In-Reply-To: <380D55C1.C3503607@mindspring.com> Message-ID: > Say someone were to home-build a CPU from scratch using only individual > components, no ICs only modern descrete(?) components. How big would the > CPU be? For comparison lets say it would be an 8080 clone. Any guesses? ok, By discrete you meand transistors and diodes. An 8080 cpu would likely fill a rack 20-25" high with boards. The memory would have to be core for practicality as a static FF cell uses lots of transistors and would be huge. using core 64k would likely fill one or more 6" racks (using 1967ish technology). A uart would fill a 9x11 board with TTL and that would expand to maybe 4-5 boards as transistors/diodes. A pdp-8 (early) had a pannel roughly 24"x50" with flip chip modules mostly transistors and the 4k core was a 10" tall rack section. for rough comparison. In many respects the 8080 is a far more complex CPU and would be significantly bigger. It would also be slow compared to the NMOS part. Doing it in ttl or bit slices would still be big, I've done that. using 2900 parts(ca mid to late '70s) the CPU equivelent was over 100 chips and filled 4 10x8" cards. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 20 08:39:56 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: VAXen (was Re: Approaching Scrappers) In-Reply-To: <19991020055345.10825.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > I'd like a 780, 782, 785, or the little-known 787. If anyone has one > in or near Silicon Valley, let me know. 787??? fictional machine. it was a tricked out 785 thats all. As far as I know there was never a engineering project inside dec to make the 787 or even targeted as that. Allison From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Oct 20 08:48:57 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: Tek 4014 was Re: tektronix 4006 terminal Message-ID: <19991020134857.24254.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Joe wrote: > Ethan, > > They're in a surplus place near Orlando. They're covered with dust. They > look like they've been there a LONG time. I have no idea what they want for > them. Give me an idea of what they're worth. As usual, I have no idea. If I saw them locally (within a few hours drive), and priced at $50 each, I'd snap them up in a second. If they were tagged at $100 each, I might get them. $500 each, I'd leave 'em be. I am afraid for what it would cost to ship them to Ohio from central Florida. Several dollars per pound truck freight, no doubt, plus the effort/expense of palletizing. At least both should be able to go on the same pallet. Thanks for the tip, though. Generally speaking, my rescue range is 8 hours drive, but it had better be good to be at the edge. The last road trip I did was to Dayton for a 15Mb 11/750 plus some goodies. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 20 08:48:44 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? In-Reply-To: <004501bf1aed$472f0b60$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> Message-ID: > BTW: I am building an Intel 4004 or possible an 8008 with flip chip modules. > Will tell you when I start it. Those parts were in the 3000-6000 transistor bracket. I'd expect an 8008 in flip chips would be bigger than a straight-8 (that's larger than an 8S). Why? The 8008 is register rich compared to the PDP-8 series and for every bit in a register thats a flip chip (8008 is about 45 bits of registers alone and then there are the FFs in the state logic). This thing is going to be HUGE. The 4004 would be less ambitious but there are still a lot of FFs in that part. Allison From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Oct 20 08:51:23 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives Message-ID: <19991020135123.2284.rocketmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Doug Coward wrote: > Dave Dameron wrote: > > The bad chips were all made by TI. I, too, have had bad experiences with 1970s TI chips and pin corrosion. I'm wondering if that's the problem with my Heathkit H-27 controller. No broken pins but lots of blackened ones (silver oxides). > Four of the 5 broken chips are TI 8T26s and the fifth is a TI 74123. > --Doug Not that I normally advocate this sort of cannibalism, but does not the Apple ][ use 8T26 bus buffers? They certainly are more common than OSI gear. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Oct 20 09:14:58 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? Message-ID: <991020101458.2360069f@trailing-edge.com> >I know its off-topic but i figured that since most of the poeple on this >list work or have worked on the really big stuff you'd know better than >most others. > >Say someone were to home-build a CPU from scratch using only individual >components, no ICs only modern descrete(?) components. How big would the >CPU be? For comparison lets say it would be an 8080 clone. Any guesses? Well, others have guessed at the 8080 Clone, but I'll step in and point out that if minimal part count is an important feature, then you can get by with a *lot* less. Especially if you go to a bit-serial architecture. (Something that's still mentioned in many computer architecture textbooks, even if it isn't used much anymore!) How big? I'll venture a guess that a 12-bit serial CPU could be done on one largish (i.e. a square foot) PC board, using TO-92's, resistors, capacitors, and diodes. This isn't too far out of line with many bit-serial designs from the late 1960's (for example, many bit-serial desktop calculators used a PC board - or two or three - about this size.) Total cost? Maybe $1500 in large scale production, including testing costs. Of course, you now hook up memory to this CPU. Doing that with discretes would be a chore! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 20 09:17:03 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives In-Reply-To: <19991020135123.2284.rocketmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > --- Doug Coward wrote: > > Dave Dameron wrote: > > > The bad chips were all made by TI. > > I, too, have had bad experiences with 1970s TI chips and pin corrosion. I'm > wondering if that's the problem with my Heathkit H-27 controller. No broken > pins but lots of blackened ones (silver oxides). While the silver oxide is hard to solder to it is conductive and no problem I've seen using sockets of good quality (some of the RN sockets were trouble with any part). FYI: silver oxides are relatively easy to remove. The H27 was somewhat troublesome with bad clock to the z80 (levels and ringing). there were several mods from heath on that alone. Then the drives were not the most relaible and cooling was poor too. Since it was a kit most of the troubles were soldering related. I've found plenty of bad sockets on them as well. My solution was to pull the chips, wash off the flux, run them through the dish washer and then plug in the chips again and test. Often that meant pulling the socket as the sockets were intermittent, I solder the part in directly. Allison From bill at chipware.com Wed Oct 20 09:48:54 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives In-Reply-To: <380D8127.1D7BD9D7@home.com> Message-ID: <001501bf1b0a$3aeee1a0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > Thats just where they broke! I used one of my wife's > sewing needles to pry them out of the sockets. I soldered a little piece of wire to the top of each one and then pulled them out. > And it's most likely they broke when I removed the chips > from the sockets, but I'm not sure about that. Well, the first exercise I perform when working with a new (well, new to me) board is the "thumb push". Pushing each socketed ship down into it's socket with one thumb. When that didn't help, I went around the board and gently lifted (with a small screwdriver) and pushed each chip. I noticed the first broken pin after I had done about three quarters of the board. Went back and checked the chips I had already re-seated and found another broken pin. Found the third broken pin as I did the rest of the board. When these components were replaced, the board started working. It is possible that my activities broke the pins and that the original problem with the board was poor contacts in the sockets, but I was being extra-gentle when I found the third broken pin. Bill From daniel at internet.look.ca Wed Oct 20 09:41:34 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? Message-ID: <000e01bf1b09$35d880a0$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> -----Original Message----- From: allisonp@world.std.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 9:49 AM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? >> BTW: I am building an Intel 4004 or possible an 8008 with flip chip modules. >> Will tell you when I start it. > >Those parts were in the 3000-6000 transistor bracket. I'd expect an 8008 >in flip chips would be bigger than a straight-8 (that's larger than an >8S). Why? The 8008 is register rich compared to the PDP-8 series and >for every bit in a register thats a flip chip (8008 is about 45 bits of >registers alone and then there are the FFs in the state logic). This >thing is going to be HUGE. The 4004 would be less ambitious but there are >still a lot of FFs in that part. I am going to impliment the instruction set serially... Hmm.. wonder where I've seen that before? I have run out of transistor/old computers to restore so I rfeally liked the 8/S and am going to do some fun stuff with a few hundred flip chips. john > >Allison > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Oct 20 10:47:13 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? In-Reply-To: <380D55C1.C3503607@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <199910201448.QAA07445@mail2.siemens.de> > I know its off-topic but i figured that since most of the poeple on this > list work or have worked on the really big stuff you'd know better than > most others. Well, I can't deny this... > Say someone were to home-build a CPU from scratch using only individual > components, no ICs only modern descrete(?) components. How big would the > CPU be? For comparison lets say it would be an 8080 clone. Any guesses? According to the intel Web site an 8080 has about 6000 Transistors. Now, it is possible to put up some 12 to 16 FF gates in discrete logic (discrete non SMD transistors etc.) gates (~40 Transistors) onto one Euro-Card board (I tid once build up 16 FFs on one board - at the age of 16, I tried to miniaturize :). So, spreading 6000 transistors at 40 transistors per board gives some 150 boards. And with an asumption of 20 boards per row we need some 8 rows, or a small (half height) rack. As usual YMMV - especialy if you may change the design. And/or build individual boards to maximize the number of transistors per board (and of course try to replace as many as posible by other circuits with less components). For the 6502, the numbers are similar. I don't have a transistor count, but a standard SC02 design consists of roughly 3,300 Gates, adding up to a number like again 6-7,000 Transistors (BTW, the 65sc02 as PLD needs ~2.1k Altera Logic Cells, or ~1k of xilinx LOgic Blocks). Gruss H. P.S.: I scored an unused 8008 Processor last week - among a bunch of other late 70s/early 80s chips... -- Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh. H.Achternbusch From mac at Wireless.Com Wed Oct 20 10:27:33 1999 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Say someone were to home-build a CPU from scratch using only individual > > components, no ICs only modern discrete(?) components. How big would the > > CPU be? For comparison lets say it would be an 8080 clone. Any guesses? It seems to me the Right Answer is to approximate the number of transistors required. How many transistors did an 8080 have? (Do remember, however, that the transistor count is actually less than you'd need with discrete transistors, because the on-chip transistors can have multpile emitters or gates or whatever in the same device.) As for how "big" it would be (that is, its size), modern discrete transistors are available in tiny SOT-23 or even tinier packages. Resistors are available in 0402 and maybe smaller. Line widths on PC boards can perhaps be as small as .002 inches, and they can be many layers, a dozen or more. So, in order to compute the size, I think you'd need to make two estimates: 1) The number of transistors per cubic inch (or cm if you like those units) 2) The number of transistors required. This assumes some packaging/connector allowance is taken into account to estimate the number of transistors per cubic whatever. ------ IMHO, if you're going to build something from transistors, why not build something that was originally built with transistors? For example, the IBM 1620, 1130, 1401, etc. Or if you really want to get funky, try something like transistorizing a tube machine, like ENIAC or JOHNNIAC or Bendix G-15. -That- could be entertaining... -Mike Cheponis From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Oct 20 10:28:43 1999 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? References: Message-ID: <380DDFAB.360B0169@mainecoon.com> allisonp@world.std.com wrote: [snip] > ok, By discrete you meand transistors and diodes. > > An 8080 cpu would likely fill a rack 20-25" high with boards. > The memory would have to be core for practicality as a static FF cell > uses lots of transistors and would be huge. using core 64k would likely > fill one or more 6" racks (using 1967ish technology). A uart would fill > a 9x11 board with TTL and that would expand to maybe 4-5 boards as > transistors/diodes. Using discrete transistors to build flop cells on that scale would be so large that getting the timing to work would be a real pain. Core wouldn't be bad at all; mid 70's core technology stuffed 32K * 20 in an 8" x 4" area with no sweat; drivers and transceivers wouldn't double that. I have trouble with the notion of the uart filling a 9 x 11 board given that I'm holding one that's occupying 4 x 5 inches in SSI. Yeah, the shift registers would take a bunch of space but I don't see it using anywhere near the amount of real estate suggested. In truth, since clock speed in such a beast is going to be low, dissipation isn't going to be an overriding factor. The upper limit on flop density is going to be how tightly we can physically pack the stuff, which is going to be markedly higher than in the '60s. Discretes of similar functionality are much smaller and we have routing tools which allow us to make use of multilayer boards while our '60s compatriots were laying stuff out by hand on light tables (been there, done that, never again). > A pdp-8 (early) had a pannel roughly 24"x50" with flip chip modules mostly > transistors and the 4k core was a 10" tall rack section. for rough > comparison. In many respects the 8080 is a far more complex CPU and would > be significantly bigger. It would also be slow compared to the NMOS part. I suspect you could build a pdp-8 using contemporary layout tools and discrete technology that, excluding the core stack, was an order of magnitude smaller. Using '70s core technology you could get the stack somewhat smaller while increasing the storage density by a factor of eight. The 8080 would without a doubt be larger than the '8 and slower than the NMOS version of the chip; it would also cost a fortune to build. > Doing it in ttl or bit slices would still be big, I've done that. using > 2900 parts(ca mid to late '70s) the CPU equivelent was over 100 chips and > filled 4 10x8" cards. That sounds about right; I recall building a PDP-11 clone using 2901/2910 parts as part of an undergraduate CPU architecture course in the same era and using about the same number of parts. Of course you can make most of the chip count go away by tossing a single (small!) xilinx chip into the mix. Best, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 20 10:36:52 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? In-Reply-To: <000e01bf1b09$35d880a0$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> Message-ID: > > I am going to impliment the instruction set serially... Hmm.. wonder where > I've seen that before? > > I have run out of transistor/old computers to restore so I rfeally liked the > 8/S and am going to do some fun stuff with a few hundred flip chips. And how does one implment the Acc, DE, HL register pairs serially... Still needs the flipflops. Then there is the matter of the 7level stack x14bits in the 8008 or the smaller one of the 4004. That's a lot of memory on the chip in the form of registers/FFs. In the parallel version that stack with it's 7x14 and pointer register is some 1/5th the total chips area and ignoring data paths would be a lot of FFs. Older serial machines did their best to avoid this kind of trap as did the PDP8 series as it's register intensive. The ALU in reality is if anything the easy part as a result even though it's not a simple array. While the PDP-8/S is serial arithmetic there are large sections that are still parallel like the memory. I may add the 8/S was not so much size reduction but cost reduction with side effects of some incompatability with other -8s and signigficant speed reduction. Look at the MIT/lincoln labs TX-1 and TX-2 for some indications. Allison From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Oct 20 10:39:02 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? Message-ID: <991020113902.2360069f@trailing-edge.com> >I have trouble with the notion of the uart filling a 9 x 11 board given >that I'm holding one that's occupying 4 x 5 inches in SSI. Yeah, the shift >registers would take a bunch of space but I don't see it using anywhere >near the amount of real estate suggested. I'd suggest a electromechanical (or optomechanical) UART instead. You know, like in a Teletype :-). >> A pdp-8 (early) had a pannel roughly 24"x50" with flip chip modules mostly >> transistors and the 4k core was a 10" tall rack section. for rough >> comparison. In many respects the 8080 is a far more complex CPU and would >> be significantly bigger. It would also be slow compared to the NMOS part. >I suspect you could build a pdp-8 using contemporary layout tools and discrete >technology that, excluding the core stack, was an order of magnitude smaller. And repackaging would also save a lot of money: a large part of the cost of a Straight-8 is all those gold plated fingers and edge connectors, and the backplane wiring. Get rid of that - so that your CPU resides on a single (even if large) PC board - and you're way ahead. (Well, way ahead if everyone else is still in 1965...) >> Doing it in ttl or bit slices would still be big, I've done that. using >> 2900 parts(ca mid to late '70s) the CPU equivelent was over 100 chips and >> filled 4 10x8" cards. >That sounds about right; I recall building a PDP-11 clone using 2901/2910 parts >as part of an undergraduate CPU architecture course in the same era and using >about the same number of parts. Of course it's also possible to do it on a single card using SSI and MSI TTL, maybe with a few bipolar PROM's. Take a look at the 11/04 CPU or the original Nova, for example. I recall - back in the mid-70's - that Radio Shack sold transistor-based logic module kits (PC boards) that could be strung together to make things like binary counters, etc. Does anyone else here remember these? Or, even better, still have the modules around? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From edick at idcomm.com Wed Oct 20 10:43:03 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? Message-ID: <001201bf1b11$e4222460$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> These days, no one would seriously attempt to build a CPU equivalent using TTL SSI/MSI components simply because the packaging gets too much in the way of smooth data flow. I once built a 650x CPU equivalent on a 4"x6" wirewrap board using TTL SSI/MSI, but it was my goal to build one using the logic available to the original designers. That was not easy, but it fit only because of the efficiencies inherent in the 650x series timing and instruction set. If one were to do the same thing with an 8080 CPU design, I suspect it could be forced to fit on a board like an S-100 card. It might be difficult to do in "period" family logic, i.e. with the parts that were available to the designers of the 8080, though. If you'd like to convince yourself of this, take a look at the '72 TTL data book from T.I. or Signetics. If one were limited to 28-pin FPLD's and smaller, I think it could be done easily enough. That would take the emphasis off parts search and the occasional unavailability of some functions, while allowing some random logic to be localized in a single device rather than requiring several different flavors of AOI gates, expanders, etc. The internal data paths of the 8080 could more easily be done with today's tristate devices than back in '72-'74 with muxes of various types. There are FPGA cores, though . . . I personally think it would be fun to build an S-100 card to replace the 8080 LSI. It might well be possible to replace all the external support logic with the hardware that goes "inside" the device, and you could fiddle with the instruction set more or less like the folks with wire-wrapped PDP8 processors did from time to time. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 12:25 AM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? >> Say someone were to home-build a CPU from scratch using only individual >> components, no ICs only modern descrete(?) components. How big would the >> CPU be? For comparison lets say it would be an 8080 clone. Any guesses? > >One of the vendors of bit-slice components (AMD 2900 or clone, I think) >offered a board that emulated an 8080. In addition to being faster than >an 8080, you could of course modify the microcode to add or change >instructions. IIRC, it looked like the board had about fifty chips. > >If you didn't use a bit-slice, you'd have to use separate ALU, memory, >and shifter chips, and you'd wind up with even more. > >The early microprocessor architectures were designed based on minimal >transistor count for a single-chip implementation. This does not result >in minimal chip count if you implement the equivalent in 7400-series >chips. It is quite possible to design useful processors with a lot fewer >TTL chips. From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 20 10:46:07 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? In-Reply-To: <199910201448.QAA07445@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: > According to the intel Web site an 8080 has about 6000 Transistors. > Now, it is possible to put up some 12 to 16 FF gates in discrete > logic (discrete non SMD transistors etc.) gates (~40 Transistors) > onto one Euro-Card board (I tid once build up 16 FFs on one board > - at the age of 16, I tried to miniaturize :). So, spreading 6000 > transistors at 40 transistors per board gives some 150 boards. > And with an asumption of 20 boards per row we need some 8 rows, > or a small (half height) rack. With gating and interconnect it will grow.! Also that would be a CPU chip replacement... memory, IO and control pannel would be needed. I think the key is yes it can be done. Yes with moden discretes and technology you can compress it. However the devil is heat and a SMD transisor at 10mW per is going to get hot with 40 per board! Why 10mW? You have to drive wires and other gates and these are not MOS devices like on the chip (you can but you still used real resistors) so things like fanout/fanin are considerations. While there are small serial computers a look at them shows some things that need to be reflected upon. They were serial archetectures and minimized the used of things like registers as they were hardware intensive. The Minuteman Missle computer I"d played with many eons ago was such an example. Flipflops were very scarce in that machine. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 20 10:56:34 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? In-Reply-To: <380DDFAB.360B0169@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: > Using discrete transistors to build flop cells on that scale would be so > large that getting the timing to work would be a real pain. Core wouldn't be > bad at all; mid 70's core technology stuffed 32K * 20 in an 8" x 4" > area with no sweat; drivers and transceivers wouldn't double that. Ok now delete all teh integrate circuits like the sense amps and substitue a flipchip sized module for each read amp (note some of those chips were duals and quads). Then look at the packages of diodes and use individual diodes. > I have trouble with the notion of the uart filling a 9 x 11 board given > that I'm holding one that's occupying 4 x 5 inches in SSI. Yeah, the shift > registers would take a bunch of space but I don't see it using anywhere > near the amount of real estate suggested. Try a TTY PDP-8 omibus card. Keeping in mind yes the uart part of that is only part of the card it still has tobe interfaced. The ttl only version is a full quad card. Again as transistors it will grow. Having had my head in the RCSRI PDP-12 and LINC-8 plus the PB-250 I have a better idea of real machines using nothing but transistor technology. Granted modern parts could really improve the packing density. > multilayer boards while our '60s compatriots were laying stuff out by hand > on light tables (been there, done that, never again). Yes, touch way to go. > I suspect you could build a pdp-8 using contemporary layout tools and discrete > technology that, excluding the core stack, was an order of magnitude smaller. > Using '70s core technology you could get the stack somewhat smaller while > increasing the storage density by a factor of eight. The 8080 would without > a doubt be larger than the '8 and slower than the NMOS version of the chip; > it would also cost a fortune to build. Maybe. If you cheat and use 70s core tech (ICs) that's a big savings as the core planes were never the total system anyway. It's the drivers/decoders that grow huge! Also you'll never get the power/cooling of a say straight-8 even if size reduced to come down near as fast and the ultimate problem may be cooling or deliver the AMPs of power. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 20 11:03:02 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? In-Reply-To: <991020113902.2360069f@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > >> Doing it in ttl or bit slices would still be big, I've done that. using > >> 2900 parts(ca mid to late '70s) the CPU equivelent was over 100 chips and > >> filled 4 10x8" cards. Note: I did this using HIGH desnity augat pannel boards (those ones with rows of WW pins spaced alternate .200, .300 so they could take .300 dips, .600 dips, and SIPs (resistors). The goal was to build a 8080 that ran most of the z80 instruction set without the EX and EXX (one set of registers) faster than a z80. The z80 by 1984 was faster than the result (more piplining, faster 2901Cs pray to the goddess of uCode). It only wanted 1,000-3,000% more power than a z80H. Allison From dogas at leading.net Wed Oct 20 11:09:09 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: 'Inter-library' loaning In-Reply-To: <991020113902.2360069f@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: Hi Gang, Probably like most of you all, I've got a large number of systems that I unfortunately cant play with at the same time. I don't really want to part with any of my toys but I also don't think I'd have a problem temporarily loaning things in exchange for a chance to play other equipment for awhile. Any thoughts on how this might be accomplished securely? Regards - Mike: dogas@leading.net From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 20 11:12:59 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? In-Reply-To: <001201bf1b11$e4222460$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Message-ID: > These days, no one would seriously attempt to build a CPU equivalent using > TTL SSI/MSI components simply because the packaging gets too much in the way > of smooth data flow. I once built a 650x CPU equivalent on a 4"x6" wirewrap > board using TTL SSI/MSI, but it was my goal to build one using the logic > available to the original designers. That was not easy, but it fit only > because of the efficiencies inherent in the 650x series timing and > instruction set. Impressive. I'd love to see that design. > If one were to do the same thing with an 8080 CPU design, I suspect it could > be forced to fit on a board like an S-100 card. It might be difficult to do > in "period" family logic, i.e. with the parts that were available to the > designers of the 8080, though. If you'd like to convince yourself of this, The 8080 was emulated using the 300x bitslice chip set. The 300x was a 2bit wide slice. the board was much larger than S100 form factor. > take a look at the '72 TTL data book from T.I. or Signetics. If one were > limited to 28-pin FPLD's and smaller, I think it could be done easily Since I have the Signetics '71 data book and also the '72 ti data books that is very true. > enough. That would take the emphasis off parts search and the occasional > unavailability of some functions, while allowing some random logic to be > localized in a single device rather than requiring several different flavors > of AOI gates, expanders, etc. The internal data paths of the 8080 could The tricks were sometime burried in things like open collector wired OR logic that made system like the PDP-8E rather than tristate. > I personally think it would be fun to build an S-100 card to replace the > 8080 LSI. It might well be possible to replace all the external support > logic with the hardware that goes "inside" the device, and you could fiddle > with the instruction set more or less like the folks with wire-wrapped PDP8 > processors did from time to time. We, having done that with 290x stuff the 8080 was weakest in not having an orthoginal instruction set. the best example was LXI SP, load SP with immediate but, there was no store SP at all. To save the SP(stack pointer) you had to save HL pair, Load it with 0000, add SP,HL and then you could store the result from the HL pair. YUCK! With holes like that filled the z80 really was an improvement. Allison From edick at idcomm.com Wed Oct 20 11:05:09 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? Message-ID: <002201bf1b14$e27864a0$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Well . . . if you mean really discrete, i.e. no TTL SSI/MSI stuff, you need to recall that a single flip-flop was resistors, capacitors and a handful of transistors. Really cramming the parts together still meant a flipflop took up space equivalent to, say, a postage stamp. I've seen claims that some old-style CPU's (e.g. 8080) could be built in programmable logic using fewer than 500 macrocells in a large CPLD. Now, that's a BUNCH of logic gates, maybe four transistors and some resistors, and 500 of these postage-stamp sized flipflops. There, methinks you'd be talking about a board as big as your dining room table, with miles of wire, and potentially millions of errors to correct. Dick -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 8:24 AM Subject: RE: OT: how big would it be? >>I know its off-topic but i figured that since most of the poeple on this >>list work or have worked on the really big stuff you'd know better than >>most others. >> >>Say someone were to home-build a CPU from scratch using only individual >>components, no ICs only modern descrete(?) components. How big would the >>CPU be? For comparison lets say it would be an 8080 clone. Any guesses? > >Well, others have guessed at the 8080 Clone, but I'll step in and point >out that if minimal part count is an important feature, then you can >get by with a *lot* less. Especially if you go to a bit-serial >architecture. (Something that's still mentioned in many computer >architecture textbooks, even if it isn't used much anymore!) > >How big? I'll venture a guess that a 12-bit serial CPU >could be done on one largish (i.e. a square foot) PC board, using >TO-92's, resistors, capacitors, and diodes. This isn't too far >out of line with many bit-serial designs from the late 1960's >(for example, many bit-serial desktop calculators used a PC board >- or two or three - about this size.) > >Total cost? Maybe $1500 in large scale production, including testing >costs. > >Of course, you now hook up memory to this CPU. Doing that with >discretes would be a chore! > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From daniel at internet.look.ca Wed Oct 20 11:15:39 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? Message-ID: <003801bf1b16$5a163ae0$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> -----Original Message----- From: Mike Cheponis To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 11:28 AM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? >> > Say someone were to home-build a CPU from scratch using only individual >> > components, no ICs only modern discrete(?) components. How big would the >> > CPU be? For comparison lets say it would be an 8080 clone. Any guesses? > >It seems to me the Right Answer is to approximate the number of transistors >required. How many transistors did an 8080 have? (Do remember, however, >that the transistor count is actually less than you'd need with discrete >transistors, because the on-chip transistors can have multpile emitters or >gates or whatever in the same device.) > >As for how "big" it would be (that is, its size), modern discrete transistors >are available in tiny SOT-23 or even tinier packages. Resistors are >available in 0402 and maybe smaller. Line widths on PC boards can perhaps >be as small as .002 inches, and they can be many layers, a dozen or more. > >So, in order to compute the size, I think you'd need to make two estimates: > >1) The number of transistors per cubic inch (or cm if you like those units) > >2) The number of transistors required. > >This assumes some packaging/connector allowance is taken into account to >estimate the number of transistors per cubic whatever. > >------ > >IMHO, if you're going to build something from transistors, why not build >something that was originally built with transistors? For example, the >IBM 1620, 1130, 1401, etc. Or if you really want to get funky, try something >like transistorizing a tube machine, like ENIAC or JOHNNIAC or Bendix G-15. >-That- could be entertaining... > That might be an interesting thing to do but I have no information on any of those cpus. Really, have to sit down and find "the ulimate" cpu to transistorize. 4004 seems reasonable (from the new stuff), I would not want to try and build a staight 8 from scratch. I work heavily now with xilinx and embedded applications (pic and scienix). Allison: You worked on transistor 8s? How did they impliment the 20mA current loop. I posted a message a while back about how it *was* set up in this cpu. The schematics of a PT08 show nothing other than one TTY line right into the receiver board. >-Mike Cheponis > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Oct 20 12:19:47 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? In-Reply-To: References: <199910201448.QAA07445@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <199910201620.SAA04817@mail2.siemens.de> > > According to the intel Web site an 8080 has about 6000 Transistors. > > Now, it is possible to put up some 12 to 16 FF gates in discrete > > logic (discrete non SMD transistors etc.) gates (~40 Transistors) > > onto one Euro-Card board (I tid once build up 16 FFs on one board > > - at the age of 16, I tried to miniaturize :). So, spreading 6000 > > transistors at 40 transistors per board gives some 150 boards. > > And with an asumption of 20 boards per row we need some 8 rows, > > or a small (half height) rack. > With gating and interconnect it will grow.! Also that would be a CPU chip > replacement... memory, IO and control pannel would be needed. Well, the whole question was about a CPU chip replacement, _not_ a working computer including maybe 64K of Mem. > I think the key is yes it can be done. Yes with moden discretes and > technology you can compress it. However the devil is heat and a SMD > transisor at 10mW per is going to get hot with 40 per board! Why 10mW? > You have to drive wires and other gates and these are not MOS devices like > on the chip (you can but you still used real resistors) so things like > fanout/fanin are considerations. Well, I assumed _non_SMD - 10 mW per transistor isn't a wrong asumption - also you should add some 50% more heat dispendes by the needed resistors. So .6W per board sounds right - but thats stil no big hassle. Using a proper rack, even 10W per card can be handled without problems (with good airflow of course). > While there are small serial computers a look at them shows some things > that need to be reflected upon. They were serial archetectures and > minimized the used of things like registers as they were hardware > intensive. The Minuteman Missle computer I"d played with many eons ago > was such an example. Flipflops were very scarce in that machine. Jep, but using a way different architecture than the original CPU would again miss the design goal (at least in my opinion). In fact, I've meditated over a similar question several times: Wouldn't it be great to have 3 C64 at display (in a museum) with 3 different incarnations of a 6502(6510) - one with the 'real' chip, one with a TTL replacement on lets say one board (like Dicks wire wrap) and the third utilizeing a big box with transistors. (And before y'all argue about backdraws, of course I know that it is close to imposssible to get the TTL running at 1 MHz inside the NMOS specs, but that can be solved by lowering the CPU clock and selecting an aprobiate Application :) I just belive this would give a _great_ display - unlike all these dump displays where they put a sack of transistors beside a uP and tell you just that they are equivalent. Anyway Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From edick at idcomm.com Wed Oct 20 11:18:58 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? Message-ID: <003301bf1b16$d0c0f400$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Why not explore this problem from the standpoint of an FPGA? When you finish you'd still have the flexibility of a hand-built device, yet what you learned in the process would potentially be of actual use? Why squander your cash and intellectual resources on creating something the folks in the '70's electronics industry were striving to avoid when you could have the same mental exercise in a productive form that made the design and implementation of your architecture the core of your effort rather than issues which are no longer relevant, like power consumption, packaging, and finding the appropriate materials from which to build your device? Signal routing is the one issue which persists from that era of yesteryear when a CPU lived in multiple racks, but it's handled, at least superficially, by the development software. Sharing flipflop packages or gates between two circuits on a backplane with 50 cards of logic in it is no easy matter. What's more, the propagation delays will slow your circuit down to cycles in multiple microseconds, while correcting the associated routing errors will take multiple days for each one. While it's not perfect, the FPGA approach allows you to have these experiences with a "virtual" closet-sized backplane with similarly "virtual" cards (modules) of logic which you can design hierarchically and based on your needs, not on what the local parts vendor happens to have. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Mike Cheponis To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 9:35 AM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? >> > Say someone were to home-build a CPU from scratch using only individual >> > components, no ICs only modern discrete(?) components. How big would the >> > CPU be? For comparison lets say it would be an 8080 clone. Any guesses? > >It seems to me the Right Answer is to approximate the number of transistors >required. How many transistors did an 8080 have? (Do remember, however, >that the transistor count is actually less than you'd need with discrete >transistors, because the on-chip transistors can have multpile emitters or >gates or whatever in the same device.) > >As for how "big" it would be (that is, its size), modern discrete transistors >are available in tiny SOT-23 or even tinier packages. Resistors are >available in 0402 and maybe smaller. Line widths on PC boards can perhaps >be as small as .002 inches, and they can be many layers, a dozen or more. > >So, in order to compute the size, I think you'd need to make two estimates: > >1) The number of transistors per cubic inch (or cm if you like those units) > >2) The number of transistors required. > >This assumes some packaging/connector allowance is taken into account to >estimate the number of transistors per cubic whatever. > >------ > >IMHO, if you're going to build something from transistors, why not build >something that was originally built with transistors? For example, the >IBM 1620, 1130, 1401, etc. Or if you really want to get funky, try something >like transistorizing a tube machine, like ENIAC or JOHNNIAC or Bendix G-15. >-That- could be entertaining... > >-Mike Cheponis > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Oct 20 11:23:15 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? Message-ID: <003801bf1b17$6a3acf20$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Hey! That must be the same UART board I have lying about somewhere. It has a bunch of shift registers in to-5 cans (to save space) and calculates parity using a JK flipflop. This thread seems to have started with the notion of even building the flipflops from discrete transistors and passives. That 4x5-inch board would grow to the size of a closet door using that thechnology. What's more, the power would have to be distributed with #16 wire. Dick -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 9:46 AM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? >>I have trouble with the notion of the uart filling a 9 x 11 board given >>that I'm holding one that's occupying 4 x 5 inches in SSI. Yeah, the shift >>registers would take a bunch of space but I don't see it using anywhere >>near the amount of real estate suggested. > >I'd suggest a electromechanical (or optomechanical) UART instead. You >know, like in a Teletype :-). > >>> A pdp-8 (early) had a pannel roughly 24"x50" with flip chip modules mostly >>> transistors and the 4k core was a 10" tall rack section. for rough >>> comparison. In many respects the 8080 is a far more complex CPU and would >>> be significantly bigger. It would also be slow compared to the NMOS part. > >>I suspect you could build a pdp-8 using contemporary layout tools and discrete >>technology that, excluding the core stack, was an order of magnitude smaller. > >And repackaging would also save a lot of money: a large part of the cost >of a Straight-8 is all those gold plated fingers and edge connectors, and >the backplane wiring. Get rid of that - so that your CPU resides on >a single (even if large) PC board - and you're way ahead. (Well, way >ahead if everyone else is still in 1965...) > >>> Doing it in ttl or bit slices would still be big, I've done that. using >>> 2900 parts(ca mid to late '70s) the CPU equivelent was over 100 chips and >>> filled 4 10x8" cards. > >>That sounds about right; I recall building a PDP-11 clone using 2901/2910 parts >>as part of an undergraduate CPU architecture course in the same era and using >>about the same number of parts. > >Of course it's also possible to do it on a single card using SSI and >MSI TTL, maybe with a few bipolar PROM's. Take a look at the 11/04 CPU or >the original Nova, for example. > >I recall - back in the mid-70's - that Radio Shack sold transistor-based >logic module kits (PC boards) that could be strung together to make >things like binary counters, etc. Does anyone else here remember these? >Or, even better, still have the modules around? > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Oct 20 11:36:23 1999 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? References: Message-ID: <380DEF87.32F01D83@mainecoon.com> allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > > Using discrete transistors to build flop cells on that scale would be so > > large that getting the timing to work would be a real pain. Core wouldn't be > > bad at all; mid 70's core technology stuffed 32K * 20 in an 8" x 4" > > area with no sweat; drivers and transceivers wouldn't double that. > > Ok now delete all teh integrate circuits like the sense amps and substitue > a flipchip sized module for each read amp (note some of those chips were > duals and quads). Then look at the packages of diodes and use individual > diodes. My point is that using contemporary discretes I don't need a flip chip's worth of real estate to implement a read or sense amp. The problem posed was to build the thing using descretes, not discretes of 1960's vintage. Equivalent power density and beta is available in packages sometime two orders of magnitudes smaller -- although for core drivers the current density would force things to be physically larger... > > > I have trouble with the notion of the uart filling a 9 x 11 board given > > that I'm holding one that's occupying 4 x 5 inches in SSI. Yeah, the shift > > registers would take a bunch of space but I don't see it using anywhere > > near the amount of real estate suggested. > > Try a TTY PDP-8 omibus card. Keeping in mind yes the uart part of that > is only part of the card it still has tobe interfaced. The ttl only > version is a full quad card. Again as transistors it will grow. That's fair; the original statement that I responded to had to do with the real estate used by the uart, not the uart and bus interface. Adding in the bus interface for the 16 bit machine this is out of I'm looking at about 50% more area. I'm not sure about the scaling to transistors; this board is *anything* but dense; packages are on what looks like about a one inch pitch. That's more than enough area to stuff the equivalent discrete logic, assuming I use contemporary tools. > Having had my head in the RCSRI PDP-12 and LINC-8 plus the PB-250 I have a > better idea of real machines using nothing but transistor technology. > > Granted modern parts could really improve the packing density. That's the point; aside from some high current applications (like core drivers) I can get a tremendous increase in density by using autorouted multilayer boards and SMD. If a 3' box fan positioned .5" from the board (quick, whose 70's data sheet is that a reference to?) doesn't keep it cool we can always immerse it in freon... > > multilayer boards while our '60s compatriots were laying stuff out by hand > > on light tables (been there, done that, never again). > > Yes, touch way to go. Funny, I found my box of rapidograph pens the other day... > > > I suspect you could build a pdp-8 using contemporary layout tools and discrete > > technology that, excluding the core stack, was an order of magnitude smaller. > > Using '70s core technology you could get the stack somewhat smaller while > > increasing the storage density by a factor of eight. The 8080 would without > > a doubt be larger than the '8 and slower than the NMOS version of the chip; > > it would also cost a fortune to build. > > Maybe. If you cheat and use 70s core tech (ICs) that's a big savings as > the core planes were never the total system anyway. It's the > drivers/decoders that grow huge! I wasn't considering cheating. Decoding is strictly combinatorial, so that's not tough. Driving and sense is much more of a bitch, and I probably can't get away with surface mount devices because of the current density requirements. Even so, I can build a similar function op amp using contemporary discretes in a hell of a lot less space than using 60's technology -- just the reduction in size of the passives gets me a hugh increase in density. > Also you'll never get the power/cooling of a say straight-8 even if size > reduced to come down near as fast and the ultimate problem may be cooling > or deliver the AMPs of power. Power distribution would be an issue, but it's certainly a tractable problem. I've lost context on the dissapation/cooling issue. Certainly we'd burn less and dissipate less (although more per square inch) than the original 8 did if we built an 8 using contemporary discretes, and a discrete implementation of an 8080 would run much hotter than the original 8. Ugh. Back to working in the 90's. Best, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From daniel at internet.look.ca Wed Oct 20 11:35:16 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? Message-ID: <005301bf1b19$17916480$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 12:25 PM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? >(And before y'all argue about backdraws, of course I know that >it is close to imposssible to get the TTL running at 1 MHz inside >the NMOS specs, but that can be solved by lowering the CPU clock >and selecting an aprobiate Application :) > >I just belive this would give a _great_ display - unlike all >these dump displays where they put a sack of transistors beside >a uP and tell you just that they are equivalent. > My point exactly. There is no practical application to build this like there is no practical reason not to junk every old computer around. They make a great display and are fun to play with. I'd rather have a few hundred Flip Chips doing something rather than collecting dust as *spares* on a shelf. john >Anyway >Gruss >H. > >-- >Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK > From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Oct 20 11:39:46 1999 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? References: Message-ID: <380DF052.E2616264@mainecoon.com> allisonp@world.std.com wrote: [stuff deleted] > The tricks were sometime burried in things like open collector wired OR > logic that made system like the PDP-8E rather than tristate. I'm convinced Edson DeCastro has a major hard-on for using OC wire or/wire and logic; it shows up all over the Nova. Debugging is a real joy; start clipping leads until you find the problem :-( [snip] > We, having done that with 290x stuff the 8080 was weakest in not having an > orthoginal instruction set. the best example was LXI SP, load SP with > immediate but, there was no store SP at all. To save the SP(stack > pointer) you had to save HL pair, Load it with 0000, add SP,HL and then > you could store the result from the HL pair. YUCK! With holes like that > filled the z80 really was an improvement. Absolutly! Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Oct 20 11:47:43 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? Message-ID: <991020124743.2360069f@trailing-edge.com> >Well . . . if you mean really discrete, i.e. no TTL SSI/MSI stuff, you need >to recall that a single flip-flop was resistors, capacitors and a handful of >transistors. >... >There, methinks you'd be talking about a board as big as your dining room >table, with miles of wire, and potentially millions of errors to correct. No, it doesn't have to be as big as a dining room table. Like I said, I own several examples of bit-serial processors implemented using discrete components - for example, my Monroe programmable calculator - which pack everything onto a few square feet of printed circuit board, and not incredibly dense PCB's at that. There are other examples of bit-serial processors in my collection - for instance, the HP 9100A - where there is some, but not much, integration used. The big PCB in the 9100A is the ROM, while the processor itself resides on a daughtercard! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From daniel at internet.look.ca Wed Oct 20 11:48:17 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? Message-ID: <005a01bf1b1a$e9549f40$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 12:33 PM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? >Why not explore this problem from the standpoint of an FPGA? When you >finish you'd still have the flexibility of a hand-built device, yet what you >learned in the process would potentially be of actual use? > (if this was directed at me) I have to design that kind of crap now, every day. I just got *into* transistor computers and find it quite interesting to see what games I can play with old RTL type stuff. >Why squander your cash and intellectual resources on creating something the >folks in the '70's electronics industry were striving to avoid when you >could have the same mental exercise in a productive form that made the >design and implementation of your architecture the core of your effort >rather than issues which are no longer relevant, like power consumption, >packaging, and finding the appropriate materials from which to build your >device? Signal routing is the one issue which persists from that era of >yesteryear when a CPU lived in multiple racks, but it's handled, at least >superficially, by the development software. Sharing flipflop packages or >gates between two circuits on a backplane with 50 cards of logic in it is no >easy matter. What's more, the propagation delays will slow your circuit >down to cycles in multiple microseconds, while correcting the associated >routing errors will take multiple days for each one. While it's not >perfect, the FPGA approach allows you to have these experiences with a >"virtual" closet-sized backplane with similarly "virtual" cards (modules) of >logic which you can design hierarchically and based on your needs, not on >what the local parts vendor happens to have. > I design high speed logic (some basic config cpu cores) now using Xilinx and even some AMD chips (yes, I use to use the MACH stuff) all with various RISC chips. I don't want to come home at night and *continue* the same type of design work (or code). I find it more entertaining to work on an 8/S , not drop one in a chip [though that might be interesting]. I try to spend my time on the old systems which is what taught me back in '79 so much about the new ones. This unit will be nothing more than a conversation piece (in my office, hopefully doing some small task) and I hope to have some fun with quick and dirty logic. If my PDP-8/S wasn't so *mint* in the rack I'd rip it out, drop it in a 8/E table top case and drag it into the office to do something fun. john >Dick > >-----Original Message----- >From: Mike Cheponis >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 9:35 AM >Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? > > >>> > Say someone were to home-build a CPU from scratch using only individual >>> > components, no ICs only modern discrete(?) components. How big would >the >>> > CPU be? For comparison lets say it would be an 8080 clone. Any >guesses? >> >>It seems to me the Right Answer is to approximate the number of transistors >>required. How many transistors did an 8080 have? (Do remember, however, >>that the transistor count is actually less than you'd need with discrete >>transistors, because the on-chip transistors can have multpile emitters or >>gates or whatever in the same device.) >> >>As for how "big" it would be (that is, its size), modern discrete >transistors >>are available in tiny SOT-23 or even tinier packages. Resistors are >>available in 0402 and maybe smaller. Line widths on PC boards can perhaps >>be as small as .002 inches, and they can be many layers, a dozen or more. >> >>So, in order to compute the size, I think you'd need to make two estimates: >> >>1) The number of transistors per cubic inch (or cm if you like those units) >> >>2) The number of transistors required. >> >>This assumes some packaging/connector allowance is taken into account to >>estimate the number of transistors per cubic whatever. >> >>------ >> >>IMHO, if you're going to build something from transistors, why not build >>something that was originally built with transistors? For example, the >>IBM 1620, 1130, 1401, etc. Or if you really want to get funky, try >something >>like transistorizing a tube machine, like ENIAC or JOHNNIAC or Bendix G-15. >>-That- could be entertaining... >> >>-Mike Cheponis >> > From elvey at hal.com Wed Oct 20 12:01:06 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199910201701.KAA05401@civic.hal.com> allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > BTW: I am building an Intel 4004 or possible an 8008 with flip chip modules. > > Will tell you when I start it. > > Those parts were in the 3000-6000 transistor bracket. I'd expect an 8008 > in flip chips would be bigger than a straight-8 (that's larger than an > 8S). Why? The 8008 is register rich compared to the PDP-8 series and > for every bit in a register thats a flip chip (8008 is about 45 bits of > registers alone and then there are the FFs in the state logic). This > thing is going to be HUGE. The 4004 would be less ambitious but there are > still a lot of FFs in that part. > > Allison Hi Another issue with the 4004 is that it used a lot of dynamic latches. These would need to be replaced by full latches if done as a descrete part. The 2300 transistors of the 4004 would most likely be expanded to about 3000. Still, if one used 8 bit latch chips, one could make a reasonable copy. I would think a 4004 equivalant could be done in one of the larger programmable parts. I did a clase where we put a 16 bit processor into one of these larger chips. Dwight From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Oct 20 12:02:41 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? Message-ID: <991020130241.2360069f@trailing-edge.com> >If my PDP-8/S wasn't so *mint* in the rack I'd rip it out, drop it in a 8/E >table top case and drag it into the office to do something fun. Will an 8/S fit in an 8/E table-top case? I don't have an 8/S myself, but in the pictures I've seen it looks to be a bit taller than the 8/E's 6 SU's (10.5 inches). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From daniel at internet.look.ca Wed Oct 20 12:01:00 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? Message-ID: <006f01bf1b1c$b1039720$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> Do you have a list of bit-serial processors [without much integration]? I would be interested in finding more.......... hopefully. john -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 12:57 PM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? >>Well . . . if you mean really discrete, i.e. no TTL SSI/MSI stuff, you need >>to recall that a single flip-flop was resistors, capacitors and a handful of >>transistors. >>... >>There, methinks you'd be talking about a board as big as your dining room >>table, with miles of wire, and potentially millions of errors to correct. > >No, it doesn't have to be as big as a dining room table. Like I said, >I own several examples of bit-serial processors implemented using >discrete components - for example, my Monroe programmable calculator - >which pack everything onto a few square feet of printed circuit board, >and not incredibly dense PCB's at that. > >There are other examples of bit-serial processors in my collection - >for instance, the HP 9100A - where there is some, but not much, integration >used. The big PCB in the 9100A is the ROM, while the processor itself >resides on a daughtercard! > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > From daniel at internet.look.ca Wed Oct 20 12:08:21 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? Message-ID: <007801bf1b1d$b73700e0$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Oct 20 12:10:31 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? In-Reply-To: <380D55C1.C3503607@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991020100642.00a2a8d0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Well the 'straight 8' is about 2.5' tall, the PDP-5 is a bit taller but it has its flip chips mounted vertically in the rack as opposed to back to back. I don't doubt that you could fit an 8080 into a single 5' tall 19" rack. --Chuck At 01:40 AM 10/20/99 -0400, you wrote: >Say someone were to home-build a CPU from scratch using only individual >components, no ICs only modern descrete(?) components. How big would the >CPU be? For comparison lets say it would be an 8080 clone. Any guesses? > >pbboy From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Oct 20 12:26:12 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?) In-Reply-To: <991020113902.2360069f@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991020102149.041671f0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Ok, so who would be interested in creating a repository of "generic" gate designs? Are the flip chip cards copyrighted? (Somehow I doubt Compaq would come after us if we started building them :-) Are they the correct technology? I like 'em because you can get to parts of the circuit easily, but it is more compact to put everything on just a few boards. Have we ruled out using SMT technology? We could easily build a 16 bit register on a single flip chip sized card with SMT stuff. --Chuck From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed Oct 20 12:55:28 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: VAXen (was Re: Approaching Scrappers) In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at "Oct 20, 1999 9:39:56 am" Message-ID: <199910201755.NAA04836@pechter.dyndns.org> > 787??? fictional machine. it was a tricked out 785 thats all. As far as > I know there was never a engineering project inside dec to make the 787 > or even targeted as that. > > Allison I thought the 787 was a 782 upgraded with dual 11/785 CPU's... Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 20 13:08:31 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? In-Reply-To: <003801bf1b16$5a163ae0$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Oct 1999, daniel wrote: > Allison: You worked on transistor 8s? How did they impliment the 20mA > current loop. I posted a message a while back about how it *was* set up in > this cpu. The schematics of a PT08 show nothing other than one TTY line > right into the receiver board. It was a transistor level converter from logic levels to 20ma. the circuit for wich is fairly simple. It was the serial/deserial hardware that ate a few boards. As in the case of the most 8's the tx/rx data was directly to the Accumulator. There were designs that would stall the machine while the bits were serialized/deserialized and written one by one to Acc. Saved registers but the cpu was stopped for about 1/10th second. Allison From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Oct 20 13:13:27 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?) Message-ID: <991020141327.2360069f@trailing-edge.com> >Ok, so who would be interested in creating a repository of "generic" gate >designs? > >Are the flip chip cards copyrighted? (Somehow I doubt Compaq would come >after us if we started building them :-) The PC artwork might be copyrighted, but the protection on the circuit design would be a patent. And the patents have (in the case of the "classic" technology being discussed) almost certainly expired by now. >Are they the correct technology? I like 'em because you can get to parts of >the circuit easily, but it is more compact to put everything on just a few >boards. > >Have we ruled out using SMT technology? We could easily build a 16 bit >register on a single flip chip sized card with SMT stuff. I, personally, don't think that surface mount is the way to go. I'd prefer to see all the transistors in TO-3 cans, though of course real transistors on flip chips often were TO-92's, and these offer a definite cost and density advantage (as does SMT, but I think that's a bit too far!) Tim. From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 20 13:21:09 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? In-Reply-To: <380DEF87.32F01D83@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: > My point is that using contemporary discretes I don't need a flip chip's > worth of real estate to implement a read or sense amp. The problem posed > was to build the thing using descretes, not discretes of 1960's vintage. > Equivalent power density and beta is available in packages sometime two > orders of magnitudes smaller -- although for core drivers the current > density would force things to be physically larger... Then you bring that out to interconnect technology and it grows though moden connectors are smaller/denser than the DEC blocks. > I can get a tremendous increase in density by using autorouted multilayer > boards and SMD. If a 3' box fan positioned .5" from the board (quick, whose 70's > data sheet is that a reference to?) doesn't keep it cool we can always immerse Signetics 82mumble WOM (write only memory) april first version. > I wasn't considering cheating. Decoding is strictly combinatorial, so that's not > tough. Driving and sense is much more of a bitch, and I probably can't get > away with surface mount devices because of the current density requirements. > Even so, I can build a similar function op amp using contemporary discretes in > a hell of a lot less space than using 60's technology -- just the reduction in > size of the passives gets me a hugh increase in density. The key here is mid 60s technology means to me a simple decoder like a 3 to 8 is now a lot of parts small or not. Sit down and think out a "equivelnt of the 74138 decoder as trasistors, diodes and resistors. Bet you end up with a lot of them. > I've lost context on the dissapation/cooling issue. Certainly we'd burn less > and dissipate less (although more per square inch) than the original 8 did > if we built an 8 using contemporary discretes, and a discrete implementation of > an 8080 would run much hotter than the original 8. Not much less. the disapation of the transistor was not size related but the ability of a circuit to provide enough output for all the other loads. Newer parts may have a higher beta, smaller size will have less interconnect capacitance but we not in the order of magnitude department here though it will be less. Newer devices would be smaller, faster, and all but they are transistors and working at that level external interconnect is very influential. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 20 13:28:37 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991020102149.041671f0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: > Are they the correct technology? I like 'em because you can get to parts of > the circuit easily, but it is more compact to put everything on just a few > boards. Flip chips, M series and all were really dictated not by what could be put on a board but how many connections the bord could make. For a flip chip it was 18 or 36 (someone?). A 16 bit parallel load register like say a pair of LS573s would need 32 IO, plus power and controls. See the problem? Even TTL chips hit the wall in pins/functions per package. Allison From daniel at internet.look.ca Wed Oct 20 13:28:24 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? Message-ID: <009601bf1b28$e59bd4a0$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> -----Original Message----- From: allisonp@world.std.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 2:09 PM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? >On Wed, 20 Oct 1999, daniel wrote: > >> Allison: You worked on transistor 8s? How did they impliment the 20mA >> current loop. I posted a message a while back about how it *was* set up in >> this cpu. The schematics of a PT08 show nothing other than one TTY line >> right into the receiver board. > >It was a transistor level converter from logic levels to 20ma. the >circuit for wich is fairly simple. It was the serial/deserial hardware >that ate a few boards. As in the case of the most 8's the tx/rx data was >directly to the Accumulator. There were designs that would stall the >machine while the bits were serialized/deserialized and written one by one >to Acc. Saved registers but the cpu was stopped for about 1/10th second. > >Allison > I know that but do you know the original circuit used between the teletype and the receiver board? I have a simple circuit running now. The current backplane shows R107 (inverters) john > From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 20 13:30:52 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: VAXen (was Re: Approaching Scrappers) In-Reply-To: <199910201755.NAA04836@pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: > > I thought the 787 was a 782 upgraded with dual 11/785 CPU's... > > Bill It was. But it was neer sold as that. It was a field hack (REX:: in the mill was one such machine). Other odd machines existed because it could be done not by and DEC engineering or marketing. Allison From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Oct 20 13:32:52 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?) Message-ID: <991020143252.2360069f@trailing-edge.com> >> Are they the correct technology? I like 'em because you can get to parts of >> the circuit easily, but it is more compact to put everything on just a few >> boards. >Flip chips, M series and all were really dictated not by what could be put >on a board but how many connections the bord could make. For a flip chip >it was 18 or 36 (someone?). A 16 bit parallel load register like say a >pair of LS573s would need 32 IO, plus power and controls. See the >problem? > >Even TTL chips hit the wall in pins/functions per package. Exactly - it's not a question of "do we have the parts?" but "Can we connect all the parts together usefully?". Is it true that the first CPU-on-a-single-board was the DG Nova? (And it's a rather largish board, at that! Almost equivalent in area to all the boards in the PDP-8/E CPU put together...) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Oct 20 13:44:16 1999 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:01 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? References: Message-ID: <380E0D80.B2E540EF@mainecoon.com> allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > > My point is that using contemporary discretes I don't need a flip chip's > > worth of real estate to implement a read or sense amp. The problem posed > > was to build the thing using descretes, not discretes of 1960's vintage. > > Equivalent power density and beta is available in packages sometime two > > orders of magnitudes smaller -- although for core drivers the current > > density would force things to be physically larger... > > Then you bring that out to interconnect technology and it grows though > moden connectors are smaller/denser than the DEC blocks. Yep. Suddenly this is starting to sound like something out of The Journal or Irreproducable Results... > > > I can get a tremendous increase in density by using autorouted multilayer > > boards and SMD. If a 3' box fan positioned .5" from the board (quick, whose 70's > > data sheet is that a reference to?) doesn't keep it cool we can always immerse > > Signetics 82mumble WOM (write only memory) april first version. Oh, she's good. She's very good. > > > I wasn't considering cheating. Decoding is strictly combinatorial, so that's not > > tough. Driving and sense is much more of a bitch, and I probably can't get > > away with surface mount devices because of the current density requirements. > > Even so, I can build a similar function op amp using contemporary discretes in > > a hell of a lot less space than using 60's technology -- just the reduction in > > size of the passives gets me a hugh increase in density. > > The key here is mid 60s technology means to me a simple decoder like a > 3 to 8 is now a lot of parts small or not. Sit down and think out a > "equivelnt of the 74138 decoder as trasistors, diodes and resistors. > Bet you end up with a lot of them. You're right, and I did. The number of components turns out to be fairly ugly, although they can still be made to fit in a fairly small area -- although we'd need robotic assembly to place all the stuff -- and that's assuming I didn't grossly screw up this design. Maybe I should spice it... ;-) > > I've lost context on the dissapation/cooling issue. Certainly we'd burn less > > and dissipate less (although more per square inch) than the original 8 did > > if we built an 8 using contemporary discretes, and a discrete implementation of > > an 8080 would run much hotter than the original 8. > > Not much less. the disapation of the transistor was not size related but > the ability of a circuit to provide enough output for all the other loads. > Newer parts may have a higher beta, smaller size will have less > interconnect capacitance but we not in the order of magnitude department > here though it will be less. Newer devices would be smaller, faster, > and all but they are transistors and working at that level external > interconnect is very influential. Absolutly no argument here. We play the same game in processor design today; drive requirements (both due to fan out and L/C) make the drivers bigger -- which drives up space, power and disapation requirements. Mind games like this are fun at times; they remind us that, at least at times, the more things change, the more they remain the same. Best, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Oct 20 13:52:04 1999 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?) References: <991020143252.2360069f@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <380E0F54.634BA7FA@mainecoon.com> CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > Exactly - it's not a question of "do we have the parts?" but "Can > we connect all the parts together usefully?". Yep. > Is it true that the first CPU-on-a-single-board was the DG Nova? > (And it's a rather largish board, at that! Almost equivalent in > area to all the boards in the PDP-8/E CPU put together...) I'm not sure. The Nova certainly used large boards - 15" * 15" - and while the original nova (and I believe supernova) and nova 1200 got by with just one, it the 800 family used two of those huge things. Since mechanical engineering was never a strong suit at DG it's generally accepted to use a rubber mallet or wooden drift to seat those boards into the backplane... Best, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From daniel at internet.look.ca Wed Oct 20 13:51:46 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?) Message-ID: <009f01bf1b2c$29c5c0c0$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 2:14 PM Subject: RE: Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?) >>Ok, so who would be interested in creating a repository of "generic" gate >>designs? >> >>Are the flip chip cards copyrighted? (Somehow I doubt Compaq would come >>after us if we started building them :-) > >The PC artwork might be copyrighted, but the protection on the circuit >design would be a patent. And the patents have (in the case of >the "classic" technology being discussed) almost certainly expired >by now. > >>Are they the correct technology? I like 'em because you can get to parts of >>the circuit easily, but it is more compact to put everything on just a few >>boards. >> >>Have we ruled out using SMT technology? We could easily build a 16 bit >>register on a single flip chip sized card with SMT stuff. > >I, personally, don't think that surface mount is the way to go. I'd prefer >to see all the transistors in TO-3 cans, though of course real transistors >on flip chips often were TO-92's, and these offer a definite cost and >density advantage (as does SMT, but I think that's a bit too far!) The flip chips (R205 - Dual Flip Flop) used 61 diodes, 4 transistors, 24 resistors, and 8 capacitors. Most of the Flip Chips I have are pre '67 so they have the "round" transistors rather than the newer looking TO-92.I would not even want to build ONE of these! BTW: The modules were "Copryright 1964 DEC" so the patent is long gone. If anyone has a particular OLDER processor that would be interesting if converted to transistors then please email me (with any links to the CPU info if you have it). I do have quite a few analog flip chips so the processor *could* do something interesting. A SMT unit *might* be interesting... I can get all the PCBs done I want for free (must have some kind of standard blocks) but the SMT building might be difficult. Can the new pick and place machines handle TO-3s [not on tape]? I am sure I can find a surplus lot of a few thousand NPN/PNPs for pennies. If something can be put together here *collectively* (a LOT less parts than the usual Flip Chip board) I would be willing to buy some time on a Pick and Place around here and have it knocked out. john > >Tim. > From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Oct 20 13:56:45 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?) Message-ID: <991020145645.23600442@trailing-edge.com> >> Is it true that the first CPU-on-a-single-board was the DG Nova? >> (And it's a rather largish board, at that! Almost equivalent in >> area to all the boards in the PDP-8/E CPU put together...) >I'm not sure. The Nova certainly used large boards - 15" * 15" >- and while the original nova (and I believe supernova) and >nova 1200 got by with just one, it the 800 family used two of >those huge things. Since mechanical engineering was never a >strong suit at DG it's generally accepted to use a rubber mallet >or wooden drift to seat those boards into the backplane... And some of the later DG Nova-descended CPU's (for example, the S/230) packed an amazing amount of parts on those huge boards! Were you the one who posted looking for an S/130, Chris? Hate to tell you this, but I had a half-dozen of 'em two years ago - if you'd only been reading then! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Oct 20 14:06:37 1999 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?) References: <991020145645.23600442@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <380E12BD.A18ED93B@mainecoon.com> CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >I'm not sure. The Nova certainly used large boards - 15" * 15" > >- and while the original nova (and I believe supernova) and > >nova 1200 got by with just one, it the 800 family used two of > >those huge things. Since mechanical engineering was never a > >strong suit at DG it's generally accepted to use a rubber mallet > >or wooden drift to seat those boards into the backplane... > > And some of the later DG Nova-descended CPU's (for example, the S/230) > packed an amazing amount of parts on those huge boards! They certainly did. The same form factor was used in the Eagle (MV) family, but in most of those machines the cards sit on their sides. An interesting aside: The larger MVs (10K, etc) load microcode from disk, which means that the machine, when in its just-powered-on-electrical-vegitable state, must be able to mount and traverse a file system. DG's solution to the problem? When the MV initially powers on it sports an instruction set straight out of the Nova 800, save for the weird autoincrement/autodecrement locations and a few other oddball bits of the nova ISA. > Were you the one who posted looking for an S/130, Chris? Hate to tell > you this, but I had a half-dozen of 'em two years ago - if you'd only > been reading then! Yep, that was me. Timing is everything, both in digital logic and life... Best, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Oct 20 14:07:25 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?) Message-ID: <991020150725.23600442@trailing-edge.com> >A SMT unit *might* be interesting... I can get all the PCBs done I want for >free (must have some kind of standard blocks) but the SMT building might be >difficult. Can the new pick and place machines handle TO-3s [not on tape]? I >am sure I can find a surplus lot of a few thousand NPN/PNPs for pennies. Sometimes the cheapest man ends up paying the most :-(. When you get to designs like this, you have to have some rational scheme for pre-testing your parts before you start stuffing giant PCB's. DEC was quite proud of their part and module testing machines, and with good reason! I'm pretty sure that Poly-Pak's main source of parts was the reject bins at DEC and DG :-). (I can't be the only one here who remember Poly-Pak, can I?) Tim. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Oct 20 14:12:27 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?) In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19991020102149.041671f0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991020120926.03f8fb20@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 02:28 PM 10/20/99 -0400, Allison wrote: >Flip chips, M series and all were really dictated not by what could be put >on a board but how many connections the bord could make. For a flip chip >it was 18 or 36 (someone?). A 16 bit parallel load register like say a >pair of LS573s would need 32 IO, plus power and controls. See the >problem? Ok, so this suggests a possible solution/idea. We use simm sockets. You can get them fairly cheaply, there is a wirewrap version, and the PC houses all have a standard template for the bottom of the board. I suppose one could even make a Q-bus that small (its 72 pins as well IIRC). Unlike Tim I think TO-3's would be way to much of a pain, but TO-92s are fine. --Chuck From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed Oct 20 14:23:54 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: VAXen (was Re: Approaching Scrappers) In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at "Oct 20, 1999 2:30:52 pm" Message-ID: <199910201923.PAA05063@pechter.dyndns.org> > > > > I thought the 787 was a 782 upgraded with dual 11/785 CPU's... > > > > Bill > > It was. But it was neer sold as that. It was a field hack (REX:: in the > mill was one such machine). > > Other odd machines existed because it could be done not by and DEC > engineering or marketing. > > Allison > RCA Solid State so hated the 11/782 software problems they later split it into two 11/780-5's. (Note: the 11/780-5 is an 11/780 upgraded in the field to an 11/785 but not FCC Certified like the 11/785 was).... Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From edick at idcomm.com Wed Oct 20 15:09:51 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? Message-ID: <002001bf1b37$11ef2620$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Yes, I agree that you'd want to approach things differently than you do your work. Perhaps an attempt at wire-wrapping a processor with "period" components? I mentioned that I did that once. It wasn't until I tried that that I came to appreciate how thrifty the processor really is when compared with others. Of course, you may not find that to be fun either. Building an S-100-based 8080 core out of TTL offers an added benefit in that the 8080 timing logic suits the S-100 bus signal layout and timing. When you're done, there's a wealth of software you can play with. I would say you ought to be able to build a processor core twice as fast as the original 8080A, jet using only a single supply. It's not likely I'll do that, but it is a tempting notion. Dick -----Original Message----- From: daniel To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 11:06 AM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? > >-----Original Message----- >From: Richard Erlacher >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 12:33 PM >Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? > > >>Why not explore this problem from the standpoint of an FPGA? When you >>finish you'd still have the flexibility of a hand-built device, yet what >you >>learned in the process would potentially be of actual use? >> > >(if this was directed at me) > >I have to design that kind of crap now, every day. I just got *into* >transistor computers and find it quite interesting to see what games I can >play with old RTL type stuff. > >>Why squander your cash and intellectual resources on creating something the >>folks in the '70's electronics industry were striving to avoid when you >>could have the same mental exercise in a productive form that made the >>design and implementation of your architecture the core of your effort >>rather than issues which are no longer relevant, like power consumption, >>packaging, and finding the appropriate materials from which to build your >>device? Signal routing is the one issue which persists from that era of >>yesteryear when a CPU lived in multiple racks, but it's handled, at least >>superficially, by the development software. Sharing flipflop packages or >>gates between two circuits on a backplane with 50 cards of logic in it is >no >>easy matter. What's more, the propagation delays will slow your circuit >>down to cycles in multiple microseconds, while correcting the associated >>routing errors will take multiple days for each one. While it's not >>perfect, the FPGA approach allows you to have these experiences with a >>"virtual" closet-sized backplane with similarly "virtual" cards (modules) >of >>logic which you can design hierarchically and based on your needs, not on >>what the local parts vendor happens to have. >> > >I design high speed logic (some basic config cpu cores) now using Xilinx and >even some AMD chips (yes, I use to use the MACH stuff) all with various RISC >chips. I don't want to come home at night and *continue* the same type of >design work (or code). I find it more entertaining to work on an 8/S , not >drop one in a chip [though that might be interesting]. I try to spend my >time on the old systems which is what taught me back in '79 so much about >the new ones. > >This unit will be nothing more than a conversation piece (in my office, >hopefully doing some small task) and I hope to have some fun with quick and >dirty logic. > >If my PDP-8/S wasn't so *mint* in the rack I'd rip it out, drop it in a 8/E >table top case and drag it into the office to do something fun. > >john > > >>Dick >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Mike Cheponis >>To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >> >>Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 9:35 AM >>Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? >> >> >>>> > Say someone were to home-build a CPU from scratch using only >individual >>>> > components, no ICs only modern discrete(?) components. How big would >>the >>>> > CPU be? For comparison lets say it would be an 8080 clone. Any >>guesses? >>> >>>It seems to me the Right Answer is to approximate the number of >transistors >>>required. How many transistors did an 8080 have? (Do remember, however, >>>that the transistor count is actually less than you'd need with discrete >>>transistors, because the on-chip transistors can have multpile emitters or >>>gates or whatever in the same device.) >>> >>>As for how "big" it would be (that is, its size), modern discrete >>transistors >>>are available in tiny SOT-23 or even tinier packages. Resistors are >>>available in 0402 and maybe smaller. Line widths on PC boards can perhaps >>>be as small as .002 inches, and they can be many layers, a dozen or more. >>> >>>So, in order to compute the size, I think you'd need to make two >estimates: >>> >>>1) The number of transistors per cubic inch (or cm if you like those >units) >>> >>>2) The number of transistors required. >>> >>>This assumes some packaging/connector allowance is taken into account to >>>estimate the number of transistors per cubic whatever. >>> >>>------ >>> >>>IMHO, if you're going to build something from transistors, why not build >>>something that was originally built with transistors? For example, the >>>IBM 1620, 1130, 1401, etc. Or if you really want to get funky, try >>something >>>like transistorizing a tube machine, like ENIAC or JOHNNIAC or Bendix >G-15. >>>-That- could be entertaining... >>> >>>-Mike Cheponis >>> >> > From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 20 15:47:44 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? In-Reply-To: <380E0D80.B2E540EF@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: > > Signetics 82mumble WOM (write only memory) april first version. > > Oh, she's good. She's very good. And old... Memory says 82s129, I have the data sheet home in that 1971 signetics data book. I was my first ttl databook! > You're right, and I did. The number of components turns out to be fairly > ugly, although they can still be made to fit in a fairly small area -- > although we'd need robotic assembly to place all the stuff -- and that's > assuming I didn't grossly screw up this design. Maybe I should spice it... ;-) ;) designing with tubes or transistors is different and I'd bet if I looked at the design I could trim out unneeded inversions or maybe by adding an inverter use wired NOR logic instead of AND or NAND. > Mind games like this are fun at times; they remind us that, at least at times, > the more things change, the more they remain the same. That and it takes up back to the core electronics that makes it happen. Myself I'd love to see three designs for a simple but useable if not useful cpu one using MSI logic, one using SSI TTL and a simple buildable transistor design (serial for simplicity). In every case the memory can be modern or if something like serial memory (drum, disk or delayline type) could be done with moden parts for sanity sake. Allison From elvey at hal.com Wed Oct 20 15:49:42 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?) In-Reply-To: <991020150725.23600442@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <199910202049.NAA05505@civic.hal.com> CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > > I'm pretty sure that Poly-Pak's main source of parts was the reject bins at > DEC and DG :-). (I can't be the only one here who remember Poly-Pak, can > I?) > > Tim. Hi I built projects from Poly-Pak's but you must realize that this dates you. I found that about 75% of the parts were useful but then, they were no better than the other major source then ( Radio something or other ). Dwight From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 20 15:54:25 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?) In-Reply-To: <991020150725.23600442@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > I'm pretty sure that Poly-Pak's main source of parts was the reject bins at > DEC and DG :-). (I can't be the only one here who remember Poly-Pak, can > I?) Remember them... I did business with them. There was a great difference in quality in transistors then and now often being not so much non fuctional but range of beta and leakages. I know some are going whats that? transistors avaibale now are far more consistant and offer far better characterestics from the days to the 2n13xx series, and the 2n35xx from years later. By current standards those were very cruce devices and teh 2n13xx were the germainium (ft 5mhz and leakey as hell with parameter drift with temperture that was unreal). I know I have loads of those old parts! Allison From daniel at internet.look.ca Wed Oct 20 16:25:45 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?) Message-ID: <00d201bf1b41$ac653000$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> -----Original Message----- From: Chuck McManis To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 3:13 PM Subject: Re: Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?) >At 02:28 PM 10/20/99 -0400, Allison wrote: >>Flip chips, M series and all were really dictated not by what could be put >>on a board but how many connections the bord could make. For a flip chip >>it was 18 or 36 (someone?). A 16 bit parallel load register like say a >>pair of LS573s would need 32 IO, plus power and controls. See the >>problem? > >Ok, so this suggests a possible solution/idea. We use simm sockets. You can >get them fairly cheaply, there is a wirewrap version, and the PC houses all >have a standard template for the bottom of the board. I suppose one could >even make a Q-bus that small (its 72 pins as well IIRC). You bring up a good point. If a board can be designed with TWO connections to the simm socket (one on top, and one on the bottom) so that you would flip the board for one operation and flip it the other way for another operation then prob. two different types of boards could be used for the whole CPU: ie: BOARD 1 side 1: 4 FF, 2 Inverters, 2 nand/nor side 2: 2 xor, 2 and/nor, ??? BOARD 2 side 1: one shot, pulse amp, etc.. side 2: more gates and inverters. limiting the CPU to two boards means I can ship it over to a manufacturer in Taiwan I have used before. 2 boards in 500 quantities/ea with just transistors and diodes(+ res + cap) is quite cheap. Maybe they would charge $2/ea. I designed a Frequency synthesized data transmitter (FM) with synth, risc chip, and many support transistors for a product. I could not keep up the production with my guys at the time so we shipped it off to Tiawan and they knocked them out in Qtys of 500 for $8 ea (PCB, parts, built and tested). I could not even buy the parts in qtys of 5000 for $8 here. Anyway, it seems this CAN be done quickly and cheaply if two boards can be standardized with a series of gates and flip flops. Should be serial, smaller and more fun! john > >Unlike Tim I think TO-3's would be way to much of a pain, but TO-92s are fine. > >--Chuck > From sipke at wxs.nl Wed Oct 20 17:01:37 1999 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? References: <380D55C1.C3503607@mindspring.com> <19991020060020.10889.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <380E3BC1.AAC35EB3@wxs.nl> Eric Smith wrote: > > > If you didn't use a bit-slice, you'd have to use separate ALU, memory, > and shifter chips, and you'd wind up with even more. > > The early microprocessor architectures were designed based on minimal > transistor count for a single-chip implementation. This does not result > in minimal chip count if you implement the equivalent in 7400-series > chips. It is quite possible to design useful processors with a lot fewer > TTL chips. FYI-> The 7400 series ALU-chip (4bit) is the 74181 Another way to go would be to use EPLD or a programmable ASIC chip. I have heard stories of a Pr-Asic 486-clone "program" being aviable. Does anyone know anything about this. I've also been thinking about "cloning" a kinda 32bit clone of the famous TMS 9900. This chip had it's registers in memory and if such a design would incorporate cache memory the results would still be respectable. Especially if it could be done with programmable-asic technology. Sipke de Wal From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 20 15:12:26 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Oct 19, 99 05:54:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 805 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991020/e569e340/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 20 15:20:16 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: Fixing an ST412? In-Reply-To: <000601bf1a97$9a504940$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> from "Richard Erlacher" at Oct 19, 99 07:07:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991020/466e8c88/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 20 15:21:20 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: Diablo 31/33 drives In-Reply-To: <380D19E9.31C64D1C@mainecoon.com> from "Chris Kennedy" at Oct 19, 99 06:24:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 433 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991020/a09887db/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 20 15:48:43 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? In-Reply-To: <002201bf1b14$e27864a0$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> from "Richard Erlacher" at Oct 20, 99 10:05:09 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1388 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991020/1ae9205c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 20 15:52:20 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? In-Reply-To: <380DEF87.32F01D83@mainecoon.com> from "Chris Kennedy" at Oct 20, 99 09:36:23 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 394 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991020/f0a822c5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 20 15:27:42 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19991020022512.232f32e6@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Oct 20, 99 02:25:12 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 996 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991020/e7019ba3/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 20 16:05:19 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? In-Reply-To: <991020124743.2360069f@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Oct 20, 99 12:47:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3012 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991020/b19aaaab/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 20 15:40:08 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives In-Reply-To: <80256810.00379E67.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@pgen.com" at Oct 20, 99 11:01:51 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 550 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991020/625c8042/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 20 16:11:28 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at Oct 20, 99 02:21:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 846 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991020/1d5e889c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 20 16:13:25 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?) In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at Oct 20, 99 02:28:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 541 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991020/6c01d6a8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 20 16:15:18 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?) In-Reply-To: <991020143252.2360069f@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Oct 20, 99 02:32:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 641 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991020/8988efd3/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 20 16:21:41 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?) In-Reply-To: <991020150725.23600442@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Oct 20, 99 03:07:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1796 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991020/3ff1efaa/attachment.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Oct 20 17:25:41 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? Message-ID: <991020182541.23600442@trailing-edge.com> >The other thing is that the 9100 is incredibly simple. Seriously. HP >pulled all sorts of tricks to reduce the component count, not all of >which would be applicable to other designs. Not only did they pull all the tricks, but they made a very nice product in the end, too. Gees, there was this other HP engineer famous for low component counts, started this computer company in the 70's when HP decided they weren't interested in his ideas. I think the guy goes by the name Wozniak and for some reason I believe Apple is still around :-). Tim. From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Oct 20 17:29:50 1999 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? References: Message-ID: <380E425E.ED6988CA@mainecoon.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > boards and SMD. If a 3' box fan positioned .5" from the board (quick, whose 70's > > data sheet is that a reference to?) doesn't keep it cool we can always immerse > > it in freon... > > A misquote of the Signetics WOM data sheet? At least the version I have > specifies a _6'_ fan 0.5" from the device. And then says something like > 'If the device overheats, cooling was inadequate' :-) My memory is clearly failing with advancing age; that's the one, fabricated using their proprietary process which was also known as "...A shovelful of this to a shovelful of that..." :-) I seem to recall a chip-destruct pin as well... Best, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Oct 20 17:15:34 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? In-Reply-To: (allisonp@world.std.com) References: Message-ID: <19991020221534.16566.qmail@brouhaha.com> Allison wrote: > ok, By discrete you meand transistors and diodes. > An 8080 cpu would likely fill a rack 20-25" high with boards. IIRC, the 8080 was about 4000 MOSFET transistors. If you implemented it with individual FETs, and packed it densely, I think you could fit it in a 10.5" high rack space easily, and a 5.25" high rack space with difficulty. Of course, you'll need plenty of forced air cooling. From a serviceability point of view, building it less densely is clearly better. If you implemented it with bipolar transistors configured as saturating logic, it would require perhaps twice as many transistors and a lot more resistors for TTL logic, or 50% more transistors, a lot of diodes, and a lot of resistors for DTL logic. > In many respects the 8080 is a far more complex CPU and would > be significantly bigger. It would also be slow compared to the NMOS part. Even in TTL-equivalent logic, it would be faster than the NMOS part if it was designed reasonably well. If you want blazing speed, build it with non-saturating logic like all the early IBM 7000-series machines. That's equivalent to ECL. Now your talking about a huge amount of power consumed and cooling needed. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Oct 20 17:17:07 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: VAXen (was Re: Approaching Scrappers) In-Reply-To: (allisonp@world.std.com) References: Message-ID: <19991020221707.16582.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > I'd like a 780, 782, 785, or the little-known 787. If anyone has one > in or near Silicon Valley, let me know. Allison wrote: > 787??? fictional machine. it was a tricked out 785 thats all. As far as > I know there was never a engineering project inside dec to make the 787 > or even targeted as that. I've seen a photo of a machine with a 787 legend. It had started life as a 782, and been upgraded to 785 CPUs. The owners claimed that DEC had supplied the 787 legend, but perhaps they were mistaken. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Oct 20 17:20:32 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: 8T26 buffers (was Re: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives) In-Reply-To: <19991020135123.2284.rocketmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> (message from Ethan Dicks on Wed, 20 Oct 1999 06:51:23 -0700 (PDT)) References: <19991020135123.2284.rocketmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <19991020222032.16630.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Not that I normally advocate this sort of cannibalism, but does not the > Apple ][ use 8T26 bus buffers? They certainly are more common than OSI gear. No. Early Apple ][ used an octal bidirectional buffer whose exact part number I've forgotten, but it was something like 8308. Later revs replaced it with the 74LS245, which was not pin compatible. Some boards were dual-patterned to accept either, although the socket was installed for one, precluding the use of the other. 8T26 chips are not that hard to find. I can probably supply some if anyone needs them, although I'll charge a premium to cover my handling costs. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Oct 20 17:26:42 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? In-Reply-To: <380DF052.E2616264@mainecoon.com> (message from Chris Kennedy on Wed, 20 Oct 1999 09:39:46 -0700) References: <380DF052.E2616264@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <19991020222642.16695.qmail@brouhaha.com> Chris Kennedy wrote: > I'm convinced Edson DeCastro has a major hard-on for using OC wire or/wire > and logic; Tristate didn't exist in the early days of TTL; the only way to do busses was OC or with muxes. The way this affected the design of PDP-11 CPUs is described at length in _Computer Engineering_. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Oct 20 17:39:45 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?) In-Reply-To: <009f01bf1b2c$29c5c0c0$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> (daniel@internet.look.ca) References: <009f01bf1b2c$29c5c0c0$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> Message-ID: <19991020223945.16770.qmail@brouhaha.com> > BTW: The modules were "Copryright 1964 DEC" so the patent is long gone. You're confusing copyrights and patents. In the US, patents now last up to 20 years from date of application. (It used to be 17 years from date of grant.) Copyrights effectively last forever. Officially it's now 95 years (for works for hire), but over the last 30 years, the term has gone up by 30 years. Every time a Disney film is in danger of going into the public domain, they sic their lobbyists on Congress. Most people have forgotten that the whole point of the Copyright system was NOT to make sure that Disney could make money on Sleeping Beauty forever. The purpose was to ensure that people (and companies) would create works on which they would have a monopoly for a LIMITED TIME, after which the work would become public domain, for the benefit of society. Imagine if the great works of literature from centuries past, including the works of Shakespeare, the Greek classics, etc., still were under copyright, and the only way to get them was to buy licensed copies from Disney. Furthermore, Disney would put them on "moratorium", making them unavailable for ten year stretches, in order to maximize their return. http://www.public.asu.edu/~dkarjala/ Anyhow, the point is that if DEC copyrighted something in 1964, it IS still covered now, and the copyright belongs to Compaq unless it's been sold to someone else. From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 20 17:59:11 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? Message-ID: <199910202259.SAA03121@world.std.com> from "allisonp@world.std.com" at Oct 20, 99 04:47:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1001 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991020/f4ff8a6e/attachment.ksh From elvey at hal.com Wed Oct 20 18:52:29 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199910202352.QAA05691@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > Incidentally the nominal Vff is given as 6.3V. I wonder how many > modern-day engineers would realise the significance. This is the point that zeners change from avalanche to some other kind of break down that I can't remember the name of. These made good noise generators. Or, could you be talking about filiment voltages? Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 20 18:43:28 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? In-Reply-To: <380E425E.ED6988CA@mainecoon.com> from "Chris Kennedy" at Oct 20, 99 03:29:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1353 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991021/aa639aa9/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Wed Oct 20 18:53:24 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: 8T26 buffers (was Re: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives) Message-ID: <002e01bf1b56$4c4b3d80$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> The National Semi DP8304 is a bidirectional bus buffer, but the 8T26 and 8T28 were only for a bidirectional bus on one side. The other side was separate in and out. They're not uncommon on S-100 boards. The DP8304 is bidirectional on both sides, like a '245. In fact it's exactly the same as the i8286. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 4:46 PM Subject: 8T26 buffers (was Re: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives) >> Not that I normally advocate this sort of cannibalism, but does not the >> Apple ][ use 8T26 bus buffers? They certainly are more common than OSI gear. > >No. Early Apple ][ used an octal bidirectional buffer whose exact part >number I've forgotten, but it was something like 8308. Later revs replaced >it with the 74LS245, which was not pin compatible. Some boards were >dual-patterned to accept either, although the socket was installed for >one, precluding the use of the other. > >8T26 chips are not that hard to find. I can probably supply some >if anyone needs them, although I'll charge a premium to cover my >handling costs. From edick at idcomm.com Wed Oct 20 18:58:04 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: outgrowth of : OT: how big would it be? Message-ID: <003701bf1b56$f3961560$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> So, who makes 256-byte RAM devices at TTL speeds these days. There are all sorts of FIFOs of 256 bytes, but I can't find a simple 256-byte RAM any more. I also need a 32x8-bit sram, fast (preferably address-access time <<10ns) and preferably in a small package. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 5:47 PM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? >> >> > > Signetics 82mumble WOM (write only memory) april first version. >> > >> > Oh, she's good. She's very good. >> >> And old... >> >> Memory says 82s129, I have the data sheet home in that 1971 signetics >> data book. I was my first ttl databook! > >The 82S129 was a fusible-link PROM. It was an actual device, and in >production until quite recently. > >I have here the Signetics data sheet for the 25120 'Fully Encoded 9046*N >Random Access Write Only Memory'. I suspect that's the one you're >thinking of. It includes graphs of 'Bit Capacity .vs. temperature', 'Iff >.vs. Vff', 'Number of pins remaining .vs. Number of socket insertions' >and 'AQL .vs. Selling Price'... :-) > >Incidentally the nominal Vff is given as 6.3V. I wonder how many >modern-day engineers would realise the significance. > >If anyone wants to get this data sheet, it's reprinted on page 605 of the >'Student Manual for the Art of Electronics' by Thomas C Hayes and Paul >Horowitz (2nd Edition, ISBN 0-521-37709-9) > >-tony > From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Oct 20 19:05:14 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?) Message-ID: <991020200514.23600442@trailing-edge.com> >Anyhow, the point is that if DEC copyrighted something in 1964, it >IS still covered now, and the copyright belongs to Compaq unless it's >been sold to someone else. True, but in this case I think we're talking about copying the circuit, and not the patent on the PCB artwork. And that's what is covered by a patent, if anything. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Oct 20 19:09:21 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?) Message-ID: <991020200921.23600442@trailing-edge.com> Eric wrote: >>Anyhow, the point is that if DEC copyrighted something in 1964, it >>IS still covered now, and the copyright belongs to Compaq unless it's >>been sold to someone else. To which I replied: >True, but in this case I think we're talking about copying the circuit, and >not the patent on the PCB artwork. And that's what is covered by a >patent, if anything. Oops! I got at least three things wrong in those two sentences. Let's try it again: True, but in this case we're talking about copying the circuit, and not about an exact copy of the PCB artwork. The artwork might be covered by a copyright, but the circuit is protected by a patent, and that's expired by now. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 20 19:59:58 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: outgrowth of : OT: how big would it be? In-Reply-To: <003701bf1b56$f3961560$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> from "Richard Erlacher" at Oct 20, 99 05:58:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 886 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991021/0ad730ff/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 20 20:27:17 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? Message-ID: <199910210127.VAA24784@world.std.com> <> Memory says 82s129, I have the data sheet home in that 1971 signetics <> data book. I was my first ttl databook! < Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991020220602.009b0190@127.0.0.1> Rumor has it that Richard Erlacher may have mentioned these words: >So, who makes 256-byte RAM devices at TTL speeds these days. There are all >sorts of FIFOs of 256 bytes, but I can't find a simple 256-byte RAM any >more. I also need a 32x8-bit sram, fast (preferably address-access time ><<10ns) and preferably in a small package. Not sure who still *makes* them, but BGMicro and I think Jameco still sells Moto 6810 & I think 68B10 parts - IIRC 128x8 parts. (No, not Meg, No, not Kilo, but 128 Bytes... just to clarify ;-) Also, if you're looking for non-volitile, you could go with one of the Dallas Semiconductor 12x887 parts - 14 bytes of control registers for the onboard clock chip, and 114 bytes of general-purpose battery-backed RAM. BGMicro has some pretty weird stuff... including some really nice kits from what I recall. www.bgmicro.com; I think they have a catalog online, if not you can download it as a .pdf... Hope that helps, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From aknight at mindspring.com Wed Oct 20 21:27:43 1999 From: aknight at mindspring.com (Alex Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? In-Reply-To: <19991020221534.16566.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19991020222743.00834eb0@pop.mindspring.com> Hi, I haven't been following this thread all that closely, but the snippet below brought back some memories ... Way back in '87 I visited the main Motorola facility in Austin, TX. I was doing a lot of 68K-family based design at that time for Nortel, and we were beginning to enter into a strategic agreement with Motorola, so the folks there were giving us a pretty in-depth tour of their facility. I never will forget being taken into one of their development labs, and over in a corner, on a shelf, were two card cages. One was the prototype 68000 processor, implemented on 11 wire-wrapped boards out of TTL logic and similar-vintage components, all plugged into a wire-wrapped backplane. Next to it was the prototype 68020 processor, which they were able to implement on 14 wire-wrapped boards. As I recall, these cards were a little larger than what we were using in our systems at the time, probably something like 12" x 12". I also recall them telling me that the 68000 prototype ran the full instruction set, and that it ran at a frequency of 500 KHz. I hope that the folks at Motorola never threw that stuff out! Regards, Alex Calculator History & Technology Museum Web Page http://aknight.home.mindspring.com/calc.htm At 10:15 PM 10/20/99 -0000, Eric Smith wrote: >Allison wrote: >> ok, By discrete you meand transistors and diodes. >> An 8080 cpu would likely fill a rack 20-25" high with boards. > >IIRC, the 8080 was about 4000 MOSFET transistors. If you implemented it >with individual FETs, and packed it densely, I think you could fit it in >a 10.5" high rack space easily, and a 5.25" high rack space with difficulty. >Of course, you'll need plenty of forced air cooling. From a serviceability >point of view, building it less densely is clearly better. ... From musicman38 at mindspring.com Wed Oct 20 22:16:12 1999 From: musicman38 at mindspring.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: DesqView/X v2.0 Disk needed.... Message-ID: <005601bf1b72$a2af91a0$f7368ad1@home> Dan, I pretty sure I have in a large box of software a fresh copy of DesqView.. If you still need this let me know, and I will dig the stuff out to see.. Phil... >I have an old Toshiba T3200SXC portable. It's the only DOS based >machine I have left, and the only one, therefore, that will run >my prom-burner software (Don't ask...) and some essential DOS >based utilities. I had it hooked to my network and did things >such as burn "BIOS" EPROMs for my VS3100's. The networking depended >on some of the capabilities of DESQVIEW/X. > >As I said, I'm desparate, and again apologize for the (possibly) OT >stuff. If you have v2 of DV/X around somewhere, or know where I can >get that file, let me know. If you've got a full copy of DV/X you're >willing to sell, and the disks are still readable (:-)), let me >know that, too. > >Thanks! > >Dann Lunsford From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Oct 20 22:19:44 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: Rescues... In-Reply-To: <005601bf1b72$a2af91a0$f7368ad1@home> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991020231944.00a13710@127.0.0.1> Dang me!!! I finally have a few things to share for rescues, even if they don't seem *spectacular* to everyone else... I just picked up a Commie 128 (seems to be in good shape), a grungy 64, 3 drives (two Commie 1541's and a Swan clone 1571), a monitor, a partner 128 (what the heck is that??? I'm usually a Tandy person) a Commie serial to Centronics parallel port adapter (that's cool... I can hook that to my Epson LQ-500) and *lots* of disks, including the original CPM 3.0 boot disk. I've not had a chance to check the stuff out, but at least it's home safe... Also, just got a call today from a guy (looking for a job...) just moved from Salt Lake, and is quite the Atarian... but happens to have a NeXT Cube or two that he'd be willing to let loose. Seems he's got 3, maybe only 2 work fully, but only wants 1 to use... so I'm first in line to get the difference. As he put it, his stuff is being shipped "on the equivalent to being tied to a cat's tail" from Utah, so it won't arrive for a few weeks yet... but when it does and he gets settled in, he's going to let me know. Whoohoo!!! ;-) Yea, it still pales to most stories around here, but dangit... it's my story, and I'm stickin' to it!!! ;^> See y'all 'round, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From edick at idcomm.com Wed Oct 20 22:24:17 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:02 2005 Subject: outgrowth of : OT: how big would it be? Message-ID: <007501bf1b73$c24edb00$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> What I'm really after is small RAMs with separate ins and outs, and the current generation stuff doesn't seem to address that requirement. I guess I'll have to use a CPLD or FPGA with RAM inside. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 7:22 PM Subject: Re: outgrowth of : OT: how big would it be? >> >> So, who makes 256-byte RAM devices at TTL speeds these days. There are all > >Good question... All sorts of useful, generic, devices are no longer >made. Oh, there are millions of complex chips for particular >applications, but just try getting a small RAM, or a simple UART, or... > >> sorts of FIFOs of 256 bytes, but I can't find a simple 256-byte RAM any >> more. I also need a 32x8-bit sram, fast (preferably address-access time >> <<10ns) and preferably in a small package. > > >Remember you can always use a larger static RAM that you strictly need >and just tie the unused address lines to a defined state (e.g. ground). >So possibly you could use the same chip for both problems. > >What about the cache RAM off a PC motherboard (is that still being made?) >It was pretty fast (15ns or better?), and 32K*8 skinnydips were used I >think. Or am I a year out of date again? > >-tony > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Oct 20 22:30:06 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: outgrowth of : OT: how big would it be? Message-ID: <008401bf1b74$927ec100$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Yes, those parts were OK, except that they are several orders of magnitude too slow. Volatility is not the issue, since it will be changed frequently, but it's VITAL that the parts be quick, i.e. 5-7 ns max, on address access and separate ins and outs would be best. I don't care if I waste 95% of the RAM, but it should have separate ins and outs, and I have seen VERY few of those, particularly in the speed i want. Any suggestions? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Roger Merchberger To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 8:13 PM Subject: Re: outgrowth of : OT: how big would it be? >Rumor has it that Richard Erlacher may have mentioned these words: >>So, who makes 256-byte RAM devices at TTL speeds these days. There are all >>sorts of FIFOs of 256 bytes, but I can't find a simple 256-byte RAM any >>more. I also need a 32x8-bit sram, fast (preferably address-access time >><<10ns) and preferably in a small package. > >Not sure who still *makes* them, but BGMicro and I think Jameco still sells >Moto 6810 & I think 68B10 parts - IIRC 128x8 parts. (No, not Meg, No, not >Kilo, but 128 Bytes... just to clarify ;-) > >Also, if you're looking for non-volitile, you could go with one of the >Dallas Semiconductor 12x887 parts - 14 bytes of control registers for the >onboard clock chip, and 114 bytes of general-purpose battery-backed RAM. > >BGMicro has some pretty weird stuff... including some really nice kits from >what I recall. www.bgmicro.com; I think they have a catalog online, if not >you can download it as a .pdf... > >Hope that helps, >Roger "Merch" Merchberger >-- >Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers >Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. > >If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead >disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From donm at cts.com Wed Oct 20 22:40:21 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Oct 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > Signetics 82mumble WOM (write only memory) april first version. > > > > > > Oh, she's good. She's very good. > > > > And old... > > > > Memory says 82s129, I have the data sheet home in that 1971 signetics > > data book. I was my first ttl databook! > > The 82S129 was a fusible-link PROM. It was an actual device, and in > production until quite recently. > > I have here the Signetics data sheet for the 25120 'Fully Encoded 9046*N > Random Access Write Only Memory'. I suspect that's the one you're > thinking of. It includes graphs of 'Bit Capacity .vs. temperature', 'Iff > .vs. Vff', 'Number of pins remaining .vs. Number of socket insertions' > and 'AQL .vs. Selling Price'... :-) > > Incidentally the nominal Vff is given as 6.3V. I wonder how many > modern-day engineers would realise the significance. Probably only those who had been exposed to transformer powered radios and TVs. Suggests filament voltage to me. - don > If anyone wants to get this data sheet, it's reprinted on page 605 of the > 'Student Manual for the Art of Electronics' by Thomas C Hayes and Paul > Horowitz (2nd Edition, ISBN 0-521-37709-9) > > -tony > > From pbboy at mindspring.com Wed Oct 20 23:21:38 1999 From: pbboy at mindspring.com (pbboy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: Heathkit 3400A information needed Message-ID: <380E94D2.223B0D79@mindspring.com> As the subject indicates, I'm in need of information on the 3400A, specifically the Illustration Booklet with Schematic fold-out that is referred to in the manual. Also, there was a 3400A up for sale on ebay a while back, including a peripheral expansion system. I've already done an exhaustive search on ebay but came up with nothing, ebay only keeps record of auctions within the past 2 months. Does anyone have any information about this expansion system? I'd like to try to build one. pbboy From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Oct 21 00:55:17 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?) In-Reply-To: <199910202049.NAA05505@civic.hal.com> References: <991020150725.23600442@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > I built projects from Poly-Pak's but you must realize that >this dates you. I found that about 75% of the parts were useful >but then, they were no better than the other major source >then ( Radio something or other ). >Dwight I just finished selling, and worse clearing out, my ancestral home. In one of my teenaged boxes of receipts I found some from Radio Shack, Olsens, Heathkit, and gulp, Lafayette. BTW I still have credits from Poly Paks. From jpero at pop.cgocable.net Wed Oct 20 22:01:08 1999 From: jpero at pop.cgocable.net (jpero@pop.cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: outgrowth of : OT: how big would it be? In-Reply-To: <008401bf1b74$927ec100$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Message-ID: <01JHDQ7Q81LWET5NQZ@ritvax.isc.rit.edu> > Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 21:30:06 -0600 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: "Richard Erlacher" > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: outgrowth of : OT: how big would it be? > X-To: > Yes, those parts were OK, except that they are several orders of magnitude > too slow. Volatility is not the issue, since it will be changed frequently, > but it's VITAL that the parts be quick, i.e. 5-7 ns max, on address access > and separate ins and outs would be best. I don't care if I waste 95% of the > RAM, but it should have separate ins and outs, and I have seen VERY few of > those, particularly in the speed i want. Piece from a 16 or 8MB SDRAM rated PC100, thats around 8ns. Failing that, look into those 8ns, and less 32K x 32bit SRAM chips off the super socket 7 boards? SS7 boards runs at 100mhz and some have successfully overclocked it over 100mhz. or SGRAM which is video ram with seperate dual buses I think in that ns speeds you looking for. Wizard throwing out ideas. > Any suggestions? > > Dick > > -----Original Message----- > From: Roger Merchberger > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 8:13 PM > Subject: Re: outgrowth of : OT: how big would it be? > > > >Rumor has it that Richard Erlacher may have mentioned these words: > >>So, who makes 256-byte RAM devices at TTL speeds these days. There are > all > >>sorts of FIFOs of 256 bytes, but I can't find a simple 256-byte RAM any > >>more. I also need a 32x8-bit sram, fast (preferably address-access time > >><<10ns) and preferably in a small package. > > > >Not sure who still *makes* them, but BGMicro and I think Jameco still sells > >Moto 6810 & I think 68B10 parts - IIRC 128x8 parts. (No, not Meg, No, not > >Kilo, but 128 Bytes... just to clarify ;-) > > > >Also, if you're looking for non-volitile, you could go with one of the > >Dallas Semiconductor 12x887 parts - 14 bytes of control registers for the > >onboard clock chip, and 114 bytes of general-purpose battery-backed RAM. > > > >BGMicro has some pretty weird stuff... including some really nice kits from > >what I recall. www.bgmicro.com; I think they have a catalog online, if not > >you can download it as a .pdf... > > > >Hope that helps, > >Roger "Merch" Merchberger > >-- > >Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers > >Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. > > > >If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead > >disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. > > > From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu Oct 21 06:54:29 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?) In-Reply-To: <380E12BD.A18ED93B@mainecoon.com> from Chris Kennedy at "Oct 20, 1999 12: 6:37 pm" Message-ID: <199910211154.HAA07091@pechter.dyndns.org> > CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > > An interesting aside: The larger MVs (10K, etc) load microcode from disk, > which means that the machine, when in its just-powered-on-electrical-vegitable > state, must be able to mount and traverse a file system. DG's > solution to the problem? When the MV initially powers on it sports an > instruction set straight out of the Nova 800, save for the weird > autoincrement/autodecrement locations and a few other oddball bits of > the nova ISA. > > Chris > Interesting... Beats the expensive 11/780 method of having an 11/03 attached just to load the microcode and do diagnostics. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Oct 21 08:54:51 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: outgrowth of : OT: how big would it be? In-Reply-To: <01JHDQ7Q81LWET5NQZ@ritvax.isc.rit.edu> References: <008401bf1b74$927ec100$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Message-ID: <199910211255.OAA02891@mail2.siemens.de> > > >> So, who makes 256-byte RAM devices at TTL speeds these days. There are all > > >> sorts of FIFOs of 256 bytes, but I can't find a simple 256-byte RAM any > > >> more. I also need a 32x8-bit sram, fast (preferably address-access time > > >> <<10ns) and preferably in a small package. > > Yes, those parts were OK, except that they are several orders of magnitude > > too slow. Volatility is not the issue, since it will be changed frequently, > > but it's VITAL that the parts be quick, i.e. 5-7 ns max, on address access > > and separate ins and outs would be best. I don't care if I waste 95% of the > > RAM, but it should have separate ins and outs, and I have seen VERY few of > > those, particularly in the speed i want. > Piece from a 16 or 8MB SDRAM rated PC100, thats around 8ns. Well, AFAIR, these 8ns are only true when reading in page mode, not for random access. > Failing that, look into those 8ns, and less 32K x 32bit SRAM chips > off the super socket 7 boards? SS7 boards runs at 100mhz and some > have successfully overclocked it over 100mhz. Also difficult to say, since cache timing is again not that simple. Especialy since they are synchnonous. And don't forget, they are 3.3V types, so not exactly TTL. > or SGRAM which is video ram with seperate dual buses I think in that > ns speeds you looking for. That sounds interesting - but again, there are several asumptions about the access methods to archive this performance. Basicly I would take something like an AS7C164-8 from Aliance, which is a standard 8Kx8 SRAM with 8ns Acces Time or only 3ns OE time. Well, again no independant I/O, which is rather rare today. AFAIR there is some 64kx18 SRAM from IBM with seperate data I/O and a cycl time of some 5ns - but I don't know any distributor. And it's also only 3.3V (If my personal FlashRAM is still valid). Also Samsung has a syncronous SRAM with seperate I/O and 7.5ns access or 10ns cycle - well again no data. Oh, yes, both are BGA or similar hard to handle packages. But all asyncronous RAM I can think of has combined I/O :( -- Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh. H.Achternbusch From transit at primenet.com Thu Oct 21 08:09:55 1999 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: Franklin 1000 (Apple Clone) keyboard problems In-Reply-To: <23357551@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Message-ID: I have a Franklin 1000 that I bought second-hand about eight years ago. So far it's worked flawlessly. I was playing around with it about a week or two ago, when I noticed that the Return key stopped working, and the space bar requires a lot of pressure to operate. I could probably get a better look at the keyboard, if I can figure out how to remove it from the case. Thanks! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charles P. Hobbs __ __ ____ ___ ___ ____ transit@primenet.com /__)/__) / / / / /_ /\ / /_ / / / \ / / / / /__ / \/ /___ / ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dogas at leading.net Thu Oct 21 09:45:31 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: Heathkit 3400A information needed In-Reply-To: <380E94D2.223B0D79@mindspring.com> Message-ID: pbboy wrote: As the subject indicates, I'm in need of information on the 3400A, specifically the Illustration Booklet with Schematic fold-out that is referred to in the manual. Also, there was a 3400A up for sale on ebay a while back, including a peripheral expansion system. I've already done an exhaustive search on ebay but came up with nothing, ebay only keeps record of auctions within the past 2 months. Does anyone have any information about this expansion system? I'd like to try to build one. I've got all the docs on the 3400 and the eta-3400 (the expansion accessory) and I'd be happy to provide copies. The eta-3400 adds Pitman tiny basic, some more memory, cassette i/o, and a terminal interface to the trainer. I'll check the doc pile when I get home from work... Regards - Mike: dogas@leading.net From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Thu Oct 21 09:56:41 1999 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? Message-ID: <80256811.0051B958.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> > ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> >> Incidentally the nominal Vff is given as 6.3V. I wonder how many >> modern-day engineers would realise the significance. Well, I'd assumed that f stood for filament. ___ Hey, perhaps Vcc is cathode voltage! > This is the point that zeners change from avalanche to > some other kind of break down that I can't remember > the name of. These made good noise generators. > Or, could you be talking about filiment voltages? > Dwight I was taught, avalanche breakdown above 5V, Zener breakdown (of course) below, but I'd always assumed that both mechanisms were present around the changeover point. Philip. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. Power Technology Centre, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, Nottingham, NG11 0EE, UK Tel: +44 (0)115 936 2000 http://www.powertech.co.uk ********************************************************************** From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Oct 21 11:31:16 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: Deciphering M792-YB "ROM Diode Matrix" PDP-11 bootstrap Message-ID: <19991021163116.17429.rocketmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> In my ongoing excavations, I've located an orphan board that I would like to return to its nest. It's a diode-strapped boot card, M792-YB. The pattern looks like this... - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - o o o o o - - - - - o - o o o 0 o o o - - - - o - - - - - - - - - o - o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o - o o o o o - o o o o o o - o o - - - o - o - o o o 10 o o o o o o o o - - - - - - - - - - - o - o o o o o o o o - o o o o - o o - - - o - - - - - - - - - - o o o o o o - o o o o o o 20 o o o o o - - - - o - o - o o o o - o o o o o o o o o - o o o o o o o - o o - - - - o - o o o o o - - - - - - - o o o o o o o - 30 o o o o o - - - - - o - o o o o - - o o - - - - o o o o o o o - W o o o o - o o o o o - o o - o o O o o o o o - - - - o - o - o o o R - o - o o o o o o o o o o o o o D o o o - o o - - - - o - o o o - o - - - - - - - o o o o o o o - o o o - o o - - - - o - o o o o 50 o o - - o - - - - o o o o o o - o o o - o o o o o - o - o o o - - - - - - o - o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o 60 - o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 70 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 0 BIT 15 (- = diode installed o = diode missing) The question is, What's a one and what's a zero? Left-to-right? I don't have an -11 frontpanel or handbook in front of me; is bit 0 the MSB? Any hints? Worst case, I could translate all permutations of the bits into octal and figure out what produces the most legible bitstream, but I'd rather go into this with a little foreknowledge. The eventual goal is to disassemble the bootstrap, thus revealing what device it is for. Thanks, -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From schoedel at kw.igs.net Thu Oct 21 12:19:00 1999 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: Deciphering M792-YB "ROM Diode Matrix" PDP-11 bootstrap In-Reply-To: <19991021163116.17429.rocketmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <380f4b110.2216@diamond.archelon.com.archelon.com> In article <19991021163116.17429.rocketmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com>, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >In my ongoing excavations, I've located an orphan board that I would like to >return to its nest. It's a diode-strapped boot card, M792-YB. The pattern >looks like this... > > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >- o o o o o - - - - - o - o o o 0 >The question is, What's a one and what's a >zero? Left-to-right? I don't have an -11 >frontpanel or handbook in front of me; is >bit 0 the MSB? Looks like only diode=1, right=MSB produces plausible code. >Any hints? Worst case, I could translate all permutations of the bits >into octal and figure out what produces the most legible bitstream, That's what I did :-) Tiny script using Supnik's emulator. >The eventual goal is to disassemble the bootstrap, thus revealing what >device it is for. 0: MOV @#177570,R1 4: RESET 6: MOV R1,R0 10: MOV #177400,(R0) 14: CMP R0,#177344 20: BNE 40 22: MOV #4002,-(R0) 26: TST (R0) 30: BPL 26 32: TST -(R0) 34: BPL 4 36: CMP (R0)+,(R0)+ 40: MOV #5,-(R0) 44: TSTB (R0) 46: BPL 44 50: TST (R0) 52: BMI 4 54: CLRB (R0) 56: JMP @#0 62: WAIT -- Kevin Schoedel schoedel@kw.igs.net From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 21 12:38:01 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? In-Reply-To: <199910210146.VAA05676@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Oct 20, 99 09:46:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1868 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991021/0d3d482c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 21 13:05:49 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: Designs (was Re: OT: how big would it be?) In-Reply-To: <199910211154.HAA07091@pechter.dyndns.org> from "Bill Pechter" at Oct 21, 99 07:54:29 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1902 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991021/5be60e90/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 21 13:08:44 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? In-Reply-To: <80256811.0051B958.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk" at Oct 21, 99 03:56:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 534 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991021/6cff868f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 21 13:16:07 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: Deciphering M792-YB "ROM Diode Matrix" PDP-11 bootstrap In-Reply-To: <19991021163116.17429.rocketmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 21, 99 09:31:16 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2426 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991021/385af050/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 21 12:57:05 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: outgrowth of : OT: how big would it be? In-Reply-To: <007501bf1b73$c24edb00$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> from "Richard Erlacher" at Oct 20, 99 09:24:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 912 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991021/4dcc23a1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 21 13:25:18 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: Deciphering M792-YB "ROM Diode Matrix" PDP-11 bootstrap In-Reply-To: <380f4b110.2216@diamond.archelon.com.archelon.com> from "Kevin Schoedel" at Oct 21, 99 01:19:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1875 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991021/066f1f5c/attachment.ksh From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Oct 21 13:51:43 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: Deciphering M792-YB "ROM Diode Matrix" PDP-11 bootstrap Message-ID: <19991021185143.5411.rocketmail@web603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kevin Schoedel wrote: > In article <19991021163116.17429.rocketmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com>, Ethan > Dicks wrote: > > > >In my ongoing excavations, I've located a ... M792-YB. The pattern > Looks like only diode=1, right=MSB produces plausible code. > > That's what I did :-) Tiny script using Supnik's emulator. Cool idea. I was going to do it the hard way. > >The eventual goal is to disassemble the bootstrap... > 0: MOV @#177570,R1 > 10: MOV #177400,(R0) > 14: CMP R0,#177344 Thanks, Kevin. Your enthusiastic efforts have saved me quite a bit of time. The code looks OK, suggesting that I didn't post any typos, but the possibility exists. I only recognize (by octal address) certain, common disk interfaces (RL11, RK611, etc.) Can anyone suggest what this might be a bootstrap to? -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From dcoward at pressstart.com Thu Oct 21 14:01:14 1999 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: 8T26s Message-ID: <4.1.19991021110756.04fb67c0@199.108.34.2> Philip.Belben@pgen.com said on the subject of: Re: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives >Doug, I hope you don't mean you need to replace the chips with broken pins. > >This happened to a ROM in my oldest PET when I was trying to reseat it (poor >contacts in sockets - I eventually replaced them with decent sockets). I stuck >a thin piece of metal - a staple, as I recall - into the socket where the pin >was supposed to go, and soldered it to the stub of the pin. Worked a treat! I can understand doing this for a ROM but it's much easier for me to just go out and buy new-old-stock chips. Here in the Bay area a few of the electronic surplus stores also have well organized selections of chips. I stopped this morning at one that's close to work, Halted Specialities (HSC). The woman behind the counter had never heard of a 8T-anything and continued to write "AT26" until I wrote it out for her. But in less than a minute she returned with a plastic drawer with about 200 in it. I had the choice between "black" or "white and gold". Sixty eight cents each and they are all Synertec parts with 1975 date codes. A few of these places also have large collections of old data books that are not for sale, but for customer reference. --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA ========================================= From daniel at internet.look.ca Thu Oct 21 14:07:16 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: DECUS Paper Tapes Message-ID: <000801bf1bf7$7fa735c0$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> I am just starting to go through the software I got with the 8/s and I don't know what some of these older tapes did: 5/8-9 [(PDP 5/8) - Tape #9] - Analysis of Variance 5/8-15 - A.T.E.P.O. Program 5/8-45 - Remote Time Shared III System 5/8-54 - Tic Tac Toe Learning Program (figured this one out) 8/8s -77 - Dual Process Sys. Some of these I can tell what they did by the name but does anyone have any information about any of them? (I haven't had time to go through all the documentation yet). Thanks john From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Oct 21 14:19:16 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: DECUS Paper Tapes Message-ID: <991021151916.236007b4@trailing-edge.com> >I am just starting to go through the software I got with the 8/s and I don't >know what some of these older tapes did: > >5/8-9 [(PDP 5/8) - Tape #9] - Analysis of Variance >5/8-15 - A.T.E.P.O. Program >5/8-45 - Remote Time Shared III System >5/8-54 - Tic Tac Toe Learning Program (figured this one out) >8/8s -77 - Dual Process Sys. > > >Some of these I can tell what they did by the name but does anyone have any >information about any of them? (I haven't had time to go through all the >documentation yet). I can't help specifically with the PDP-8 DECUS paper tapes, but I can offer some general clues: DECUS software starts with the model that it runs on - in your case, a PDP-5 or a PDP-8 - and is followed by a sequence number. So "5/8-45" is the 45th program for the PDP-5 or PDP-8. A "S" after the model number signifies either a symposium collection or a "special" collection. Your 5/8-9 tape is a general statistical tool that falls into the "ANOVA" class. For an index of how these numbers apply to PDP-11 (i.e. "11-" and "11S" series) DECUS software, see http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/decus/ for several hundred DECUS 11-series abstracts. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From SzewczykM at hcgi.com Thu Oct 21 14:26:04 1999 From: SzewczykM at hcgi.com (Mike Szewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: Hello Message-ID: <6F4FA42A5405D211B15D006094A3CD9F0257AEB4@mail.hcgi.com> This is sort of a test, and a re-hello. I used to subscribe to this list about a year ago. Hi. I've got more stuff. I concentrate mostly on old 8-bit computer systems. I recall some guys liking old mainframes. I don't have that kind of space and that's not my background. Anyway. Hi! Mike Szewczyk Technical Operations Manager Hartford Computer Group 847-934-4461 X4323 847-996-8278 Pager 847-934-0157 Fax From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Thu Oct 21 15:47:56 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: Highgate Going Down for Disk Upgrade Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991021134756.0093a790@mail.sfu.ca> Hello All: Highgate.comm.sfu.ca will be offline over the weekend for an upgrade of it's HD. I am going to add 6 GB of space to the machine. The OS will be staying as is for the time being, although at some point I would like to upgrade it to FreeBSD 3.x. User files should not be affected, I will be moving the /usr/home and web data to the new HD. I'll send you all a message once the machine is back up. Sorry for any inconvenience! Kevin ========================================================== Sgt. Kevin McQuiggin, Vancouver Police Department E-Comm Project (604) 215-5095; Cell: (604) 868-0544 Email: mcquiggi@sfu.ca From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Oct 21 17:43:40 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: Rescues... References: <3.0.1.32.19991020231944.00a13710@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <00b601bf1c15$b9aee100$74721fd1@jrkeysppt> Great finds and let me know about extra cube working or not. It was great me you and the others at VCF3 and I hit it big at two of your thrift stores out there on Sunday the 3rd. There was so much good stuff I could not get it all since I was flying back here to MN and it was no way for me ship it on Sunday that I knew of. My only regret was that the sellers could not open up early on Sunday so that those of us flying out could get to shop before 2pm. My gridpads are working perfect and thanks loads for the deal on them. John ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Merchberger To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 10:19 PM Subject: Rescues... > Dang me!!! I finally have a few things to share for rescues, even if they > don't seem *spectacular* to everyone else... > > I just picked up a Commie 128 (seems to be in good shape), a grungy 64, 3 > drives (two Commie 1541's and a Swan clone 1571), a monitor, a partner 128 > (what the heck is that??? I'm usually a Tandy person) a Commie serial to > Centronics parallel port adapter (that's cool... I can hook that to my > Epson LQ-500) and *lots* of disks, including the original CPM 3.0 boot > disk. I've not had a chance to check the stuff out, but at least it's home > safe... > > Also, just got a call today from a guy (looking for a job...) just moved > from Salt Lake, and is quite the Atarian... but happens to have a NeXT Cube > or two that he'd be willing to let loose. Seems he's got 3, maybe only 2 > work fully, but only wants 1 to use... so I'm first in line to get the > difference. As he put it, his stuff is being shipped "on the equivalent to > being tied to a cat's tail" from Utah, so it won't arrive for a few weeks > yet... but when it does and he gets settled in, he's going to let me know. > Whoohoo!!! ;-) > > Yea, it still pales to most stories around here, but dangit... it's my > story, and I'm stickin' to it!!! ;^> > > See y'all 'round, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers > Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. > > If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead > disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. > From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Oct 21 17:53:36 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: DECUS Paper Tapes In-Reply-To: <000801bf1bf7$7fa735c0$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> from daniel at "Oct 21, 1999 03:07:16 pm" Message-ID: <199910212253.WAA18752@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > I am just starting to go through the software I got with the 8/s and I don't > know what some of these older tapes did: > > 5/8-9 [(PDP 5/8) - Tape #9] - Analysis of Variance > 5/8-15 - A.T.E.P.O. Program Auto Test in Elementary Programming and Operation of a PDP-5 computer The program will type questions or instructions to be performed by the operator of a 4K PDP-5/8. The program will check to see if the operator has answered the questions correctly. If this is the case, it wil type the next questionor instruction. > 5/8-45 - Remote Time Shared III System A time-shared programming system which allows remote stations immediate access to the computer and a wide selection of programs. > 5/8-54 - Tic Tac Toe Learning Program (figured this one out) Needs FORTRAN Object Time System > 8/8s -77 - Dual Process Sys. The purpose of this system is to expedite the programming of multiprocessing problems on the PDP-8 and PDP-8/S. It maximizes both the input speed and the portionm of real time actualy used for calculations by allowing the program to run during the intervals between issuing I/O commands and the raising of the device flag to signal completion of the command. The technique also allows queueing of input data or commands so that the user need not wait while his last line is being processed, and so that each line of input may be processed as fast as possible regardless of its length. The system uses the interrupt facilities and has less than 3% overhead on the PDP-8/S (about 0.1% on the PDP-8). This method is especially useful for a slower machine where the problem may easily be calculation limited but would, without such a system, become I/o bound. The program may also be easily extended to handle input from an A/D converter. Here, the input would be buffered by groups of readings terminated either arbitrarily in groups of N or by zero crossings. This program can increase the I/O to computation efficiency of some programs by 100%. It can do this even for single Teletype. Each user will probably want to tailor the program to his individual needs. Storage Requirement: 600(base 8) registers for two TTY's plus buffer space. (Several device configurations are possible). > > > Some of these I can tell what they did by the name but does anyone have any > information about any of them? (I haven't had time to go through all the > documentation yet). > > Thanks > > john > > -Lawrence (just got a 1975 DECUS catalog 2 days ago) LeMay From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 21 17:39:46 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: Deciphering M792-YB "ROM Diode Matrix" PDP-11 bootstrap In-Reply-To: <19991021185143.5411.rocketmail@web603.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 21, 99 11:51:43 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1472 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991021/6a02e559/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Oct 21 19:50:28 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: Heathkit 3400A information needed In-Reply-To: References: <380E94D2.223B0D79@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991021195028.477f5b82@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi Mike, I have a ET-3400 and the Student Workbook and Microprocesssor Book 2 that go with it. I didn't get book 1 but it doesn't look it had much in it. I'd like to get copies of what ever you find about the ETA 3400. Joe At 10:45 AM 10/21/99 -0400, you wrote: >pbboy wrote: > >As the subject indicates, I'm in need of information on the 3400A, >specifically the Illustration Booklet with Schematic fold-out that is >referred to in the manual. Also, there was a 3400A up for sale on ebay >a while back, including a peripheral expansion system. I've already >done an exhaustive search on ebay but came up with nothing, ebay only >keeps record of auctions within the past 2 months. Does anyone have any >information about this expansion system? I'd like to try to build one. > > >I've got all the docs on the 3400 and the eta-3400 (the expansion accessory) >and I'd be happy to provide copies. The eta-3400 adds Pitman tiny basic, >some more memory, cassette i/o, and a terminal interface to the trainer. >I'll check the doc pile when I get home from work... > >Regards >- Mike: dogas@leading.net > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Oct 21 20:14:54 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: PDP 11/23 and 11/05 Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991021201454.42f71b76@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi All, Just got back from another scrounging trip. I picked up a PDP 11/05. Can anyone give me a URL to a FAQ on these or tell me more about them and where I can look up the card numbers? I know next to nothing about PDPs but this one headed for the metal recyclers so I grabbed it. While I was there I found a MEI wire bonder. This is a machine that automaticly attachs the wire leads to the wafers in ICs. This one has been sitting out in the weather and is ruined for it's intended use. It does have a PDP 11/23 in it though. I'm wondering about picking it for the computer and misc parts. Are the 11/23s worth anything? There's some other very interesting stuff in the machine like a video camera and a video recognition system but I doubt it would be possible to transplant that into something else without a good set of technical info. Comments? Joe From dann at greycat.com Thu Oct 21 21:01:37 1999 From: dann at greycat.com (Dann Lunsford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: DesqView/X v2.0 Disk needed.... References: <005601bf1b72$a2af91a0$f7368ad1@home> Message-ID: <380FC581.9B547B68@greycat.com> Phil Clayton wrote: > > Dan, > I pretty sure I have in a large box of software a fresh copy of DesqView.. > If you still need this let me know, and I will dig the stuff out to see.. Phil, Thanks for the offer, but my problem was solved by Bill Pechter sending me the file. I'm back up and running, with two backup copies of the disks :-). Mike Grigoni went above and beyond, but it turned out he only had a version I couldn't use :-(. Thank goodness for this list! By the way, I'm willing to burn/read EPROMS for CLASSICCMP people if they send me the parts/data and a couple of bucks to cover mailing them back. Or if in my area (Sacramento, CA), they can drop by. My way of saying "thanks" for the help I've gotten here. Dann L. From danburrows at mindspring.com Thu Oct 21 21:01:43 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: UK PDP11/73's rescue / help Message-ID: <030201bf1c31$84955e60$d252e780@tower166.office> I have a line on at least a couple if not more PDP11/73's in the UK. They should have at least the following BA23, M8190,1 or 2 meg memory, TK50, M7546, M7555, RD53 or RD54. There are a few other boards in them I am VERY interested in that I am prepared to buy the systems just for those other boards. If there is anyone in the London area please contact me off list. ( or willing to make a trip to London area ) At least the above mentioned items will be yours for your trouble. The systems have RSX11M+ loaded I don't know yet if any have DECnet at this time. They will be scrapped if I don't buy them. If I buy them I will not pay to have the entire systems shipped to the states so I am offering them to the list members as basic systems. (I want the VSV21's and other goodies.:) Please include your phone # and when is a good time to call so I can call to discuss details. Please give me your time - I am very used to figuring the 5 hour difference. Thanks Dan From edick at idcomm.com Thu Oct 21 22:00:54 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: outgrowth of : OT: how big would it be? Message-ID: <004c01bf1c3a$08378380$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Please see embedded comments below. regards, Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, October 21, 1999 12:44 PM Subject: Re: outgrowth of : OT: how big would it be? >> >> What I'm really after is small RAMs with separate ins and outs, and the >> current generation stuff doesn't seem to address that requirement. I guess >> I'll have to use a CPLD or FPGA with RAM inside. > >I never found separate data in and out pins to be particularly useful >(well, not unless the chip was dual-ported...). Can't you use buffers to >link a conventional RAM with bidirectional data pins to your design? > >Hitachi made some reasonably fast (15ns, and probably faster) SRAMs until >quite recently. I used the 64K*4 ones in a CCD readout system (don't >ask...), and they worked fine. Not cheap, though. > RAMs with separate D and Q pins are inherently faster, in that you don't have the delay of the output buffers to wait out. Since I want FAST here, that's important. What's more, the output buffers then don't have to drive the input capacitance. That saves more delay. > >Of course having a RAM that's too large is not a major problem (other >than cost). You can always tie the address pins low (or whatever). I've >seen this done on commercial boards, presumably either because small RAMs >weren't available, or to simplify the inventory of parts needed. > That's true unless convenient packaging is an issue, which it could be here. I'll probably have to use an FPGA and use some of its memory capacity as RAM. > >-tony > From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Oct 21 22:32:34 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: Pascal & FPP Message-ID: <199910220332.DAA19195@thorin.cs.umn.edu> I was wondering if anyone uses the Pascal compiler on the PDP-8, or if anyone actively writes code that uses the Floating Point hardware? One of these days I really need to scan a bunch of documentation in on those two topics... Any suggestion for a good way to do that, possibly with a pointer to some useful software on the web that I can download... -Lawrence LeMay From daniel at internet.look.ca Thu Oct 21 22:37:38 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: DECUS Paper Tapes Message-ID: <000a01bf1c3e$ca9cffa0$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> Thank you for being so helpful. I will run the tapes and see what happens. I trust the SA is usually 200 (except for Tic Tac Toe which I know is 400). BTW: Does DECUS still sell this stuff? john -----Original Message----- From: Lawrence LeMay To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, October 21, 1999 6:55 PM Subject: Re: DECUS Paper Tapes >> I am just starting to go through the software I got with the 8/s and I don't >> know what some of these older tapes did: >> >> 5/8-9 [(PDP 5/8) - Tape #9] - Analysis of Variance >> 5/8-15 - A.T.E.P.O. Program > Auto Test in Elementary Programming and Operation of a PDP-5 computer > > The program will type questions or instructions to be performed by > the operator of a 4K PDP-5/8. The program will check to see if > the operator has answered the questions correctly. If this is the > case, it wil type the next questionor instruction. > >> 5/8-45 - Remote Time Shared III System > A time-shared programming system which allows remote stations > immediate access to the computer and a wide selection of programs. > >> 5/8-54 - Tic Tac Toe Learning Program (figured this one out) > Needs FORTRAN Object Time System > >> 8/8s -77 - Dual Process Sys. > The purpose of this system is to expedite the programming of > multiprocessing problems on the PDP-8 and PDP-8/S. It maximizes > both the input speed and the portionm of real time actualy used > for calculations by allowing the program to run during the > intervals between issuing I/O commands and the raising of the device > flag to signal completion of the command. The technique also allows > queueing of input data or commands so that the user need not wait > while his last line is being processed, and so that each line of input > may be processed as fast as possible regardless of its length. The > system uses the interrupt facilities and has less than 3% overhead > on the PDP-8/S (about 0.1% on the PDP-8). > > This method is especially useful for a slower machine where the > problem may easily be calculation limited but would, without > such a system, become I/o bound. > > The program may also be easily extended to handle input from an > A/D converter. Here, the input would be buffered by groups of > readings terminated either arbitrarily in groups of N or by > zero crossings. > > This program can increase the I/O to computation efficiency of > some programs by 100%. It can do this even for single Teletype. > Each user will probably want to tailor the program to his individual > needs. > > Storage Requirement: 600(base 8) registers for two TTY's plus > buffer space. (Several device configurations > are possible). > >> >> >> Some of these I can tell what they did by the name but does anyone have any >> information about any of them? (I haven't had time to go through all the >> documentation yet). >> >> Thanks >> >> john >> >> > >-Lawrence (just got a 1975 DECUS catalog 2 days ago) LeMay > From wpfulmor at dimensional.com Thu Oct 21 23:39:32 1999 From: wpfulmor at dimensional.com (William Fulmor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: Paging R.I. Computer Museum representative In-Reply-To: <000a01bf1c3e$ca9cffa0$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> Message-ID: Please contact me by Email Thanks Bill William P. Fulmor 1148 Monroe Street Denver CO 80206 From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Fri Oct 22 01:06:49 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: Hello In-Reply-To: <6F4FA42A5405D211B15D006094A3CD9F0257AEB4@mail.hcgi.com> from "Mike Szewczyk" at Oct 21, 99 02:26:04 pm Message-ID: <199910220606.XAA18975@saul1.u.washington.edu> > This is sort of a test, and a re-hello. I used to subscribe to this list > about a year ago. Hi. I've got more stuff. I concentrate mostly on old > 8-bit computer systems. I recall some guys liking old mainframes. I don't > have that kind of space and that's not my background. Anyway. Hi! Well, your test seemed to work. I trust you had no problems getting back on to the list? (I'm not sure if I was running it when you unsubscribed -- at any rate I'm running it now.) What are the 8-bit machines you've collected? Has anything interesting happened in the last year? -- Derek From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Thu Oct 21 09:43:02 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: Tandon TM 100 5 1/4" drives Message-ID: <80256811.0050FD35.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> >> Reminiscent of motoring in Germany. There the signs - and even the inhabitants >> - talk about speeds in km. NOT km/h, which is what they mean. Very >> confusing... > > No, that's no confusing, it's plain wrong. A speed does not have the > dimensions of a distance. Wrong it may be, but I assure you it _is_ confusing ;-) Not as confusing as tracks/side vs. tracks/disk, though, since 80km/s is not a sensible speed for a road vehicle (yet!)... Philip. This E-mail message is private and confidential and should only be read by those to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, reproduction, modification or publication of this communication is strictly prohibited. Please delete the message from your computer and destroy any copies. This message is not intended to be relied upon by any person without subsequent written confirmation of its contents. This company therefore disclaims all responsibility and accepts no liability of any kind which may arise from any person acting, or refraining from acting, upon the contents of the message without having had subsequent written confirmation. If you have received this communication in error, or if any problems occur in transmission please notify us immediately by telephone on +44 (0)2476 425474 From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Thu Oct 21 09:52:53 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? Message-ID: <80256811.0051EFA8.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> > IIRC, the 8080 was about 4000 MOSFET transistors. If you implemented it > with individual FETs, and packed it densely, I think you could fit it in > a 10.5" high rack space easily, and a 5.25" high rack space with difficulty. > Of course, you'll need plenty of forced air cooling. From a serviceability > point of view, building it less densely is clearly better. True. > If you implemented it with bipolar transistors configured as saturating > logic, it would require perhaps twice as many transistors and a lot more > resistors for TTL logic, or 50% more transistors, a lot of diodes, and a > lot of resistors for DTL logic. Also true. A lot of the power estimates have been based on the assumption that we have bipolar transistors. What about discrete mosfets? We could do NMOS or even CMOS designs directly that way... I liked Hans's suggestion (which I have now deleted, alas) of a museum exhibit with three identical computers, but with processor as single chip, board of gates, and rack of trannies for comparison. It does provide a service that you couldn't get another way... ... or could you? Didn't PDP8 come in all three versions? I've often wondered if you could build a transistorised computer without pcbs at all. You know, trannies on tag board, little plugs bolted onto the ends (or on flying leads) and so on... I was assuming ECL for two reasons - if you use early transistors (Ge), ECL would probably be the only way to go at all fast; and ECL gives the advantage of easy differential line drivers and receivers for long interconnects. Philip. This E-mail message is private and confidential and should only be read by those to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, reproduction, modification or publication of this communication is strictly prohibited. Please delete the message from your computer and destroy any copies. This message is not intended to be relied upon by any person without subsequent written confirmation of its contents. This company therefore disclaims all responsibility and accepts no liability of any kind which may arise from any person acting, or refraining from acting, upon the contents of the message without having had subsequent written confirmation. If you have received this communication in error, or if any problems occur in transmission please notify us immediately by telephone on +44 (0)2476 425474 From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Oct 22 07:36:34 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? In-Reply-To: <19991020221534.16566.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: (allisonp@world.std.com) Message-ID: <199910221139.NAA27885@mail2.siemens.de> > > ok, By discrete you meand transistors and diodes. > > An 8080 cpu would likely fill a rack 20-25" high with boards. > IIRC, the 8080 was about 4000 MOSFET transistors. Acording to Intels 'WebMuseum' they needed 6000 Transistors. > If you implemented it > with individual FETs, and packed it densely, I think you could fit it in > a 10.5" high rack space easily, and a 5.25" high rack space with difficulty. > Of course, you'll need plenty of forced air cooling. From a serviceability > point of view, building it less densely is clearly better. Well, My own calculation comes also close around 25" hight. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Oct 22 07:16:42 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? In-Reply-To: <80256811.0051EFA8.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: > > IIRC, the 8080 was about 4000 MOSFET transistors. If you implemented it And how many depletion load resistors.? > Also true. A lot of the power estimates have been based on the assumption that > we have bipolar transistors. What about discrete mosfets? We could do NMOS or > even CMOS designs directly that way... MOSFETS solve half the problem. There are still load resistors on the chip never minding all of the registers are constructed like DRAM IE: they are capacitors. That dynamic logic and memeory is very hard to simulate at tyhe discrete level. If you simulate them using static cells the transistor count goes up a factor of 6 for each BIT of register plus a lot of resistors that dynamic logic does not use. Allison From philclayton at mindspring.com Fri Oct 22 10:51:14 1999 From: philclayton at mindspring.com (Phil Clayton / Computer Automation) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: Hello Message-ID: <004201bf1ca5$464e9580$85348ad1@server> -----Original Message----- From: Mike Szewczyk To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, October 21, 1999 3:26 PM Subject: Hello >This is sort of a test, and a re-hello. I used to subscribe to this list >about a year ago. Hi. I've got more stuff. I concentrate mostly on old >8-bit computer systems. I recall some guys liking old mainframes. I don't >have that kind of space and that's not my background. Anyway. Hi! > > >Mike Szewczyk Hi Mike, Welcome back to the list. I also collect older 8-bit micro's, mostly pre DOS machines. I also don't have any experiance in the mainframe computers, with the exception of my old ENIAC tube computer in my garage. (Grin)! Would be interested in seeing your list of machines. email is philclayton@mindspring.com I have about 25 home computers, and another 25 or so business based microcomputers in my collection.. CP/M based computers are my favorites.. Phil.. From philclayton at mindspring.com Fri Oct 22 11:02:27 1999 From: philclayton at mindspring.com (Phil Clayton / Computer Automation) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: Eniac on a single chip Message-ID: <004501bf1ca6$d7277760$85348ad1@server> Here is an interesting web site I just came across.. Seems the Moore school of engineering students for the 50th anniversary of ENIAC integrated the whole ENIAC computer on one single chip.. Pretty interesting information on ENIAC.. http://www.ee.upenn.edu/~jan/eniacproj.html Phil.. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Oct 22 11:02:08 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: HELP: Guy needs OS for PDP 11/63 (RSX) Message-ID: Can someone help this guy out? Reply-to: skarabe1@tampabay.rr.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 05:34:47 +0000 From: Scott To: vcf@vintage.org Subject: ???? I'm looking for an OS for a DEC model PDP 11/53 or Later. It would be on 5in floppy ,it is called RSX and I think is labeled DEC RX50 or RX30. I know this is a longshot but I'm desperate. Thanks for your time. Scott Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. VCF East? VCF Europe!? YOU BETCHA!! Stay tuned for more information or contact me to find out how you can participate http://www.vintage.org From shoaibi at paknet3.ptc.pk Fri Oct 22 11:16:12 1999 From: shoaibi at paknet3.ptc.pk (shoaibimpex) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <38108DCC.E4B14387@paknet3.ptc.pk> WEC 4TH FLOOR S-A/2 CUTHCI MEMON SOCIETY BAHADURBAD , KARACHI PAKISTAN DEAR SIR . OUR COMPANY IS DEALING IN MANY ITEMS , AND ONE OF OUR ITEMS ARE GIFT AND CROCKERY . WE IMPORT THESE ITEMS IN PAKISTAN , USA , & U.K PLS SEND US BOOKLET AND DETAIL WITH THE PRICES . AWAITING FOR YOUR SOONEST REPLY BY MAIL AT THE ABOVE ADDRESS. THANKING YOU. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 22 12:18:11 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? In-Reply-To: <80256811.0051EFA8.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@pgen.com" at Oct 21, 99 03:52:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1548 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991022/c7e66cc9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 22 12:30:01 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: outgrowth of : OT: how big would it be? In-Reply-To: <004c01bf1c3a$08378380$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> from "Richard Erlacher" at Oct 21, 99 09:00:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2242 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991022/b32d854a/attachment.ksh From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Oct 22 14:10:43 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? Message-ID: <19991022191043.6471.rocketmail@web603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > I liked Hans's suggestion (which I have now deleted, alas) of a museum > > exhibit with three identical computers... > > ... or could you? Didn't PDP8 come in all three versions? > > Yes it did, but there were _slight_ differences in the instruction set > IIRC (rather like the differences in the PDP11 instruction set between > similar-ish models). Differences, yes, but it should be possible to write some trivial code that runs identically on all three models, presuming the TTY implementation on the DECMate doesn't really hose things up that badly. > But having a straight-8, a PDP8/e and a DECmate all running side by side > would be an interesting exhibit. Pity I can't do it... It's one of my goals when I complete the musuem. I have a DECMate and some PDP-8/L's out at my new location, but I haven't moved the Straight-8's yet (Neither have I powered them on since I got them... reconditioning the power supply is another project on the To-Do list). At least now I have a module map, many thanks to Doug Jones. First step is the 12Kw -8/L. I had everything together last weekend *except* a key. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From daniel at internet.look.ca Fri Oct 22 14:20:24 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:03 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? - PCBs at home Message-ID: <000a01bf1cc2$7e0ede40$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, October 22, 1999 2:49 PM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? >> I liked Hans's suggestion (which I have now deleted, alas) of a museum exhibit >> with three identical computers, but with processor as single chip, board of >> gates, and rack of trannies for comparison. It does provide a service that you >> couldn't get another way... >> >> ... or could you? Didn't PDP8 come in all three versions? > >Yes it did, but there were _slight_ differences in the instruction set >IIRC (rather like the differences in the PDP11 instruction set between >similar-ish models). > >But having a straight-8, a PDP8/e and a DECmate all running side by side >would be an interesting exhibit. Pity I can't do it... > >If we consider calculators for a moment, you can get 2 out of the 3 >machines by : > >Casio AL1000 (discrete transistor, programmable, not scientific) >Casio AL2000 (ICs, much the same functionality as the AL1000) >???? (All-in-one-chip equivalent) > >Or : > >HP9100 (discrete transistors, programmable, scientific) >??? (Equivalemt with simple ICs) >HP65 (Almost the same functionality in a handheld) > >Only worrying thing would be putting the AL2000 and the HP9100 alongside >each other. They're almost the same size, but the HP uses 'older' >technology and does a lot more... > >> >> I've often wondered if you could build a transistorised computer without pcbs at >> all. You know, trannies on tag board, little plugs bolted onto the ends (or on > >Of course you could, but why would you want to? What's the problem with >PCBs (or am I going to find out for myself when I get seriously into >making them at home?) > Making PCBs at home is a rediculous waste of time. I have a vacuum lightbox here as well as a commercial processing system, a silkscreening set up, even a wave solder machine in my home and nothing compares to what the big guys can do and charge for the same thing. My last *production* company use to make its own prototype doublesided PCBs in house and it wasn't worth it. I have a company I use now that will make me a double sided PCB, GOLD PLATED contacts, solder mask both sides (pre-drilled of course), and silk screened, and cut for less than a $1 a board in quantities of 500. Pre-sensitised boards are useless as they usually come flawed and the coating thickness is not consitant. The company I use now for PCBs used a "roll" of sentised film that was "ironed" onto a 3' X 3' board. Far better process. Don't forget a good GERBER and NC drill file is needed and most PCB manufacturers find little problems with the files that you may not uncover in >-tony > From cmcmanis at freegate.com Fri Oct 22 14:22:55 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: More on "discrete" CPUs Message-ID: <4.1.19991022121626.00c76280@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Having read through the discussion, I sat down and sketched out some "flip chip" type designs. Units of logic that could be wired together to create the CPU. When I did this I was striving for a fairly universal design so, as John put it, we could have a whole bunch made and get the benefit of volume manufacturing. Well, not too suprisingly (ask the right question, get the same answer) I was about halfway through my sketched out design when I realized I was duplicating something I had seen in a databook, a Xilinx databook to be precise. The flip chips are the "CLB"s (Complex Logic Blocks) of your standard gate array design. The backplane is the interconnects. The problem is reduced to the complexity of implementing the FPGA architecture and then having the tools send out wrap lists rather than routing configs :-) --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 22 14:07:04 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? In-Reply-To: <80256811.0051EFA8.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) References: <80256811.0051EFA8.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Message-ID: <19991022190704.5064.qmail@brouhaha.com> Philip.Belben@pgen.com wrote: > I was assuming ECL for two reasons - if you use early transistors > (Ge), ECL would probably be the only way to go at all fast; and ECL > gives the advantage of easy differential line drivers and receivers > for long interconnects. You're absolutely right. These are the exact reasons that IBM's early transistor computers (7090, Stretch/7030) used non-saturating logic. But they did you PCBs with wire-wrapped backplanes. Their tube computers did not use PCBs, but instead eight-tube pluggable units that were hand-wired. And someone will no doubt feel obliged to correct me if I fail to mention that the earlier IBM machines such as the 603 multiplier and 604 calculator didn't use the eight-tube pluggable units. That was a later innovation. I'm not sure whether the 650 used them. From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Oct 22 14:25:25 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > ... or could you? Didn't PDP8 come in all three versions? > > Yes it did, but there were _slight_ differences in the instruction set > IIRC (rather like the differences in the PDP11 instruction set between > similar-ish models). The instructionset differences largely are in the OPR group where some of the microcoded undocumented combinations were actually useful. When viewed from the older members twoward the newest this is not a great problem. the extended arithmetic however there were many flavors that were somewhat compatable. > But having a straight-8, a PDP8/e and a DECmate all running side by side > would be an interesting exhibit. Pity I can't do it... a PDP-5, straight-8, 8I, 8E, 8A and DECMATE (I/II/III?). Each represents a level of difference on the base design. For example the 8A had mechanism in hardware for stacks (actually IOTS so it's retrofitable!). The DECmates represent two different chips the 6100 (base 8Eish) and the 6120 (more 8Aish) both having a control pannel mode unique to them. The commonality is great from the 5 though the DMIII that you can wite program that run on both. This made the PDP-8 series likable (software investment). Allison From edick at idcomm.com Fri Oct 22 15:22:28 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: More on "discrete" CPUs Message-ID: <001201bf1ccb$42f737e0$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> IIRC, since this a.m. when I was reading some of thei XILINX literature, the 'C' in CLB is for CONFIGURABLE though it is complex. It's a RAM lookup table with some gating and a register or two, depending on the type, and has MUCH more configurability, due to the very general functional nature of the RAM lookup table, than most of what you could have made up in a modular fashion using elementary devices like bipolar transistors or mosfets. Nevertheless, getting software to manage the interconnections for you might not be so difficult. I, for example, would make up a symbol in OrCAD for the logic block and then interconnect them in a schematic. Afterward, I would run a netlist in "wirelist" format, which would then describe, net by net, what the specified interconnections are. If I were to want a picture of the interconnection, I'd netlist the thing for the PCB router and have it route them, perhaps optimizing my physical arrangement in the process. If you extend the FPGA logic plock concept a little bit, you can look at its CLB as a 2-bit registered full-adder, in some cases with fast carry logic. It could also be looked upon as a 2-bit registered ALU. Plugging in an ALU for every gate in a design might be inefficient as can be, but by taking advantage of the economy of scale, it could well be realistic in sufficient quantity. That's certainly what XILINX and others have found. Dick From: Chuck McManis To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, October 22, 1999 1:27 PM Subject: More on "discrete" CPUs >Having read through the discussion, I sat down and sketched out some "flip >chip" type designs. Units of logic that could be wired together to create >the CPU. When I did this I was striving for a fairly universal design so, >as John put it, we could have a whole bunch made and get the benefit of >volume manufacturing. > >Well, not too suprisingly (ask the right question, get the same answer) I >was about halfway through my sketched out design when I realized I was >duplicating something I had seen in a databook, a Xilinx databook to be >precise. > >The flip chips are the "CLB"s (Complex Logic Blocks) of your standard gate >array design. The backplane is the interconnects. > >The problem is reduced to the complexity of implementing the FPGA >architecture and then having the tools send out wrap lists rather than >routing configs :-) > >--Chuck > From marvin at rain.org Fri Oct 22 15:36:33 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? - PCBs at home References: <000a01bf1cc2$7e0ede40$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> Message-ID: <3810CAD1.D4DC23AF@rain.org> daniel wrote: > > Making PCBs at home is a rediculous waste of time. I have a vacuum lightbox That really depends on what you want to do. Before I started a printed circuit mfg company, I did make them at home for considerably less money that it cost to have them made. > here as well as a commercial processing system, a silkscreening set up, even > a wave solder machine in my home and nothing compares to what the big guys > can do and charge for the same thing. My last *production* company use to Again, what are you trying to do? Silkscreening circuits require a fine stainless mesh and a good chase unless you are only after a crude, make it work, type of pcb. > make its own prototype doublesided PCBs in house and it wasn't worth it. I > have a company I use now that will make me a double sided PCB, GOLD PLATED > contacts, solder mask both sides (pre-drilled of course), and silk screened, > and cut for less than a $1 a board in quantities of 500. Need to mention the board size, number of holes, and setup charges for that $1 a board to mean anything :). > Pre-sensitised boards are useless as they usually come flawed and the > coating thickness is not consitant. The company I use now for PCBs used a > "roll" of sentised film that was "ironed" onto a 3' X 3' board. Far better > process. Using dry film is an excellent approach used by most professional pc board houses, and the equipment isn't all that expensive (depending on your frame of reference.) Older dry film laminators can probably still be had in the $1k area. Of course, at a $100+ per roll of dry film, and the fact it has a limited shelf life make the process impractical unless a number of boards are being made on a regular basis. > Don't forget a good GERBER and NC drill file is needed and most PCB > manufacturers find little problems with the files that you may not uncover Actually there are a number of ways to make artwork; gerber files and NC files are not required. An NC drill file can be created from artwork. I have seen camera ready artwork produced by electrical tape on a piece of mylar (funny but true), produced by linotronic printers, printed by dot matrix printers, and a number of other ways. FWIW, a local shop will also produce undrilled pc boards just printed and etched for about $0.30/sq in total cost. This is a wonderful service for fast, inexpensive prototype SS or DS circuit boards. From daniel at internet.look.ca Fri Oct 22 15:56:12 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? - PCBs at home Message-ID: <003601bf1ccf$e2d23c20$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> -----Original Message----- From: Marvin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, October 22, 1999 4:37 PM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? - PCBs at home > > >daniel wrote: >> >> Making PCBs at home is a ridiculous waste of time. I have a vacuum lightbox > >That really depends on what you want to do. Before I started a printed >circuit mfg company, I did make them at home for considerably less money >that it cost to have them made. We tried use both silk screening and pre-sensitized boards in the beginning. > >> here as well as a commercial processing system, a silk-screening set up, even >> a wave solder machine in my home and nothing compares to what the big guys >> can do and charge for the same thing. My last *production* company use to > >Again, what are you trying to do? Silk-screening circuits require a fine >stainless mesh and a good chase unless you are only after a crude, make it >work, type of PCB. > I know. We had a unit made up by a screen manufacturing place. I still have a few steel frames with stainless mesh. It worked pretty good on small runs but I really like to have boards solder masked and plate through holes. >> make its own prototype doublesided PCBs in house and it wasn't worth it. I >> have a company I use now that will make me a double sided PCB, GOLD PLATED >> contacts, solder mask both sides (pre-drilled of course), and silk screened, >> and cut for less than a $1 a board in quantities of 500. > >Need to mention the board size, number of holes, and setup charges for that >$1 a board to mean anything :). 2" x 3", he never cares about the number of holes. It was always the same price. On 3X3 we had some discretes, a few 44 pin PLCCs and an 18 pin PIC. The guy has done thousands of boards for me (before I shipped the entire job to Taiwan). BTW: No set up charges. > > >> Pre-sensitized boards are useless as they usually come flawed and the >> coating thickness is not consistant. The company I use now for PCBs used a >> "roll" of sensitized film that was "ironed" onto a 3' X 3' board. Far better >> process. > >Using dry film is an excellent approach used by most professional PC board >houses, and the equipment isn't all that expensive (depending on your frame >of reference.) Older dry film laminators can probably still be had in the >$1k area. Of course, at a $100+ per roll of dry film, and the fact it has a >limited shelf life make the process impractical unless a number of boards >are being made on a regular basis. > Yes, he gave me a tour. He drills the boards first, then photosensitizes them. They get UV, then he develops them in water (I think it was). Then he electroforms copper to create plate through holes, then tins, then gold plates, I think then he did the solder mask on both sides (I am sure that was silk screened) and finally the boards were silk-screened (layout), then cut. Turn around time was generally 4 days. >> Don't forget a good GERBER and NC drill file is needed and most PCB >> manufacturers find little problems with the files that you may not uncover > >Actually there are a number of ways to make artwork; Gerber files and NC >files are not required. An NC drill file can be created from artwork. I have >seen camera ready artwork produced by electrical tape on a piece of mylar >(funny but true), produced by linotronic printers, printed by dot matrix >printers, and a number of other ways. > He always wants the NC file for his "quad" drilling CNC machines, they also carve out the board "shape". I think he uses the Gerber file to print out artwork for the film he needs for the various processes. >FWIW, a local shop will also produce undrilled pc boards just printed and >etched for about $0.30/sq in total cost. This is a wonderful service for >fast, inexpensive prototype SS or DS circuit boards. If they are not drilled then you do not get the plate through holes :-( Drilling is no big deal for this guy... He drops 4 sets of 5-10 boards (at least 18" X 24") on a quad head CNC and it drills them REALLY fast... john > From chemif at mbox.queen.it Fri Oct 22 17:31:10 1999 From: chemif at mbox.queen.it (RICCARDO) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: Collecting IBM Manuals > I' VEGOT THE 5288 < Message-ID: <199910222231.AAA05358@beta.queen.it> At 01:32 15/10/99 EDT, you wrote: >Hi all, > >does anyone collect IBM manuals from the mainframe line, like >system /360, or even older ones, like 1140, 1401, 7090, and earlier ? >I would be particularly interested in any hardware docs. > >Thanks and regards >John G. Zabolitzky I have original manuals and disks for the IBM 5288 Machine has been disassembled last week (SIG!) Let me know if interested. Riccardo Romagnoli I-47100 Forl? From daniel at internet.look.ca Fri Oct 22 16:04:27 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: More on "discrete" CPUs Message-ID: <004001bf1cd1$08307800$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> -----Original Message----- From: Chuck McManis To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, October 22, 1999 3:24 PM Subject: More on "discrete" CPUs >Having read through the discussion, I sat down and sketched out some "flip >chip" type designs. Units of logic that could be wired together to create >the CPU. When I did this I was striving for a fairly universal design so, >as John put it, we could have a whole bunch made and get the benefit of >volume manufacturing. Good stuff Chuck. The only other idea I have is if we can standardize 4 SMALL boards and just put them on one larger sheet they can be cut after they are manufactured (which eliminates the double connector). Gotta resolve yet which CPU to build (UNIVAC, PDP 8, whatever) and the standard circuits... (quad flip flop, whatever). To keep it small, bit-serial cpu, light bulbs :-) , flip switches and ..... ? > >Well, not too suprisingly (ask the right question, get the same answer) I >was about halfway through my sketched out design when I realized I was >duplicating something I had seen in a databook, a Xilinx databook to be >precise. > >The flip chips are the "CLB"s (Complex Logic Blocks) of your standard gate >array design. The backplane is the interconnects. > >The problem is reduced to the complexity of implementing the FPGA >architecture and then having the tools send out wrap lists rather than >routing configs :-) > >--Chuck > From rachael_ at gmx.net Fri Oct 22 17:16:24 1999 From: rachael_ at gmx.net (Jacob Dahl Pind) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: a bit offtopic Message-ID: <589.964T1218T13962710@gmx.net> Hi I just bought a Philips Odyssey 2001, i know it`s a bit offtopic but does anyone know how old it is ?. The first thing I did was to open it up to look for somekind of infomation to it`s age but I did`t find any dates at all. I have found a bit infomation about a Odyssey 100 & 200, but nothing about a 2001. Regards Jacob Dahl Pind -------------------------------------------------- = IF this computer is with us now... = =...It must have been meant to come live with us.= = (Belldandy - Goddess First class) = -------------------------------------------------- From jhfine at idirect.com Fri Oct 22 16:47:05 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: Differences Between CompacTape I, II, III Message-ID: <3810DB59.2FDD32DA@idirect.com> Does anyone know what are the magnetic strength of the different media inside DLT type tapes? I am trying to understand what are the differences between a CompacTape CompacTape II CompacTape III also know as a DLT tape I can see any physical difference except for the color of the name. I assume that the tape media have different magnetic strengths. There was a recent discussion about the magnetic strength of 5 1/4" floppies - I remember that the DSDD were 300 o and the HD were 600 o. Do the different CompacTape media have the same sort of differences. I did look up the quantum.com web site and it seems to state that the CompacTape III are metal tapes. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Oct 22 17:21:02 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: opening a Rl01 drive Message-ID: <199910222221.WAA21362@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Ok, how do you open the top of a RL01 drive? someone mentioned removing that little plate on the right side, but when I do that i dont see anything resembling an unlocking mechanism. The latch on top appears to be locked somehow, since i cant seem to move it. -Lawrence LeMay From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Fri Oct 22 17:24:08 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: Highgate Disk Upgrade Complete Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991022152408.0092e430@mail.sfu.ca> Hello Again: highgate.comm.sfu.ca has a new disk drive. From 70 MB free, we now have 5.4 GB. The pdp-8 web site at http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8 now has tons more room to grow. For those of you with user accounts, your files have been moved over to the new drive, and all should work as expected. Please let me know if you experience any problems. Kevin ========================================================== Sgt. Kevin McQuiggin, Vancouver Police Department E-Comm Project (604) 215-5095; Cell: (604) 868-0544 Email: mcquiggi@sfu.ca From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 22 17:06:00 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: Differences Between CompacTape I, II, III In-Reply-To: <3810DB59.2FDD32DA@idirect.com> (message from Jerome Fine on Fri, 22 Oct 1999 17:47:05 -0400) References: <3810DB59.2FDD32DA@idirect.com> Message-ID: <19991022220600.8805.qmail@brouhaha.com> Jerome Fine asks: > Does anyone know what are the magnetic strength of the > different media inside DLT type tapes? I am trying to > understand what are the differences between a > CompacTape > CompacTape II > CompacTape III also know as a DLT tape I though I'd saved some info from Usenet on this subject, but a quick grep doesn't turn it up. From memory, I think CompacTape I and II are TK50 and TK70, respectively. CompacTape III might be equivalent to DLT I, but there are also DLT II, III, and IV. > I assume that the tape media have different magnetic strengths. Yes. It's reportedly possible to use a TK70 cart as a TK50 by bulk erasing it, so apparently the tape formulation isn't too much different. But I wouldn't trust *my* data to it. ECMA has published the DLT standards, and unlike ANSI, IEEE, etc., they make them available free on the web or CD-ROM. The standards should include specs for the media coercivity. Look them up at: http://www.ecma.ch/ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Oct 22 17:43:13 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: Differences Between CompacTape I, II, III In-Reply-To: <3810DB59.2FDD32DA@idirect.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991022153337.040f9450@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> From jpl15 at netcom.com Fri Oct 22 17:46:33 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: opening a Rl01 drive In-Reply-To: <199910222221.WAA21362@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Oct 1999, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > Ok, how do you open the top of a RL01 drive? someone mentioned removing that > little plate on the right side, but when I do that i dont see anything > resembling an unlocking mechanism. The latch on top appears to be locked > somehow, since i cant seem to move it. The solenoid mechansim is in there, just up and out of sight... a small flashlight will aid in finding the linkage... then you (push it up?) I haven't done this in a while . The other good way is to simply power up the drive, press 'LOAD' out, and wait for it to stabilze, open the door, remove the pack, close the door and power down. Assumes you have mains power available, natch...... Cheers John From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 22 17:47:13 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: opening a Rl01 drive References: <199910222221.WAA21362@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <99102218481605.20676@vault.neurotica.com> On Fri, 22 Oct 1999, Lawrence LeMay wrote: >Ok, how do you open the top of a RL01 drive? someone mentioned removing that >little plate on the right side, but when I do that i dont see anything >resembling an unlocking mechanism. The latch on top appears to be locked >somehow, since i cant seem to move it. Behind the little plate there should be a thin vertical metal rod. Pull it down and the door should unlock. Alternatively, apply power and wait for the click. :-) -Dave McGuire From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Oct 22 18:56:06 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: opening a Rl01 drive In-Reply-To: from John Lawson at "Oct 22, 1999 03:46:33 pm" Message-ID: <199910222356.XAA21482@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > > Ok, how do you open the top of a RL01 drive? someone mentioned removing that > > little plate on the right side, but when I do that i dont see anything > > resembling an unlocking mechanism. The latch on top appears to be locked > > somehow, since i cant seem to move it. > > The solenoid mechansim is in there, just up and out of sight... a > small flashlight will aid in finding the linkage... then you (push > it up?) I haven't done this in a while . > > The other good way is to simply power up the drive, press 'LOAD' > out, and wait for it to stabilze, open the door, remove the pack, > close the door and power down. Assumes you have mains power > available, natch...... > I choose to power it up, and I was able to open the top door. However, the FAULT light stays on, i cant lock the cover down anymore, and I can remove the disk pack (just lift the handle?). I'm chosing to leave the RL01 powered up for a little while, in case the electronics havent been powered on for a while, but I doubt that wil fix this problem. Note, the drive isnt conected to any computer at this time, its just powered up. -Lawrence LeMay From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Oct 22 19:01:23 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: opening a Rl01 drive Message-ID: <991022200123.23600896@trailing-edge.com> >I choose to power it up, and I was able to open the top door. However, >the FAULT light stays on, i cant lock the cover down anymore, and >I can remove the disk pack (just lift the handle?). I'm chosing to leave >the RL01 powered up for a little while, in case the electronics havent >been powered on for a while, but I doubt that wil fix this problem. > >Note, the drive isnt conected to any computer at this time, its just >powered up. Yep - if the drive isn't getting the clock signal from the bus interface module in the computer (this is used to synchronize the spin rate, among other things), it'll light up its fault light and refuse to do anything. At least you know that the "fault" light works! When one of the other bulbs goes bad, the "fault" light is usually the first one cannibalized because it's so rarely on. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Oct 22 19:02:25 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: opening a Rl01 drive In-Reply-To: <199910222356.XAA21482@thorin.cs.umn.edu> from Lawrence LeMay at "Oct 22, 1999 06:56:06 pm" Message-ID: <199910230002.AAA21522@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > > I choose to power it up, and I was able to open the top door. However, > the FAULT light stays on, i cant lock the cover down anymore, and > I can remove the disk pack (just lift the handle?). I'm chosing to leave > the RL01 powered up for a little while, in case the electronics havent > been powered on for a while, but I doubt that wil fix this problem. I meant to say i CANT remove the disk pack. > > Note, the drive isnt conected to any computer at this time, its just > powered up. > > -Lawrence LeMay > From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Oct 22 19:11:01 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: opening a Rl01 drive Message-ID: <991022201101.23600896@trailing-edge.com> >> I choose to power it up, and I was able to open the top door. However, >> the FAULT light stays on, i cant lock the cover down anymore, and >> I can remove the disk pack (just lift the handle?). I'm chosing to leave >> the RL01 powered up for a little while, in case the electronics havent >> been powered on for a while, but I doubt that wil fix this problem. >I meant to say i CANT remove the disk pack. *Oh*. Do you hear a "click" roughly 20 seconds after applying power to the drive? That's the lid latch solenoid. The "click" means that you can open it now. If you hear the "click" but still can't operate the open-cover latch, this is likely because the long piece of nylon line that connects the button to the latch is out of whack. (Or just plain broken!) Can you slide the button back and forth? If you feel *no* resistance, then the nylon line is probably broken. If you still can't move the sliding button at all, then the latch mechanism is screwed up. Some previous fellow may have tried too enthusiastically to move the slide when he shouldn't have, and bent or notched something out of whack. It's also possible for the latch mechanism itself, the other end of the nylon string, is broken/bent. If you don't hear the click, there may be a power supply or logic board problem. In *any* event, if you loosen the four screws holding the plastic panel on top at the rear of the drive, you can lift up the *entire* top cover quite handily and see what's going on. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Oct 22 19:18:46 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: opening a Rl01 drive Message-ID: <991022201846.23600896@trailing-edge.com> >>> I choose to power it up, and I was able to open the top door. However, >>> the FAULT light stays on, i cant lock the cover down anymore, and >>> I can remove the disk pack (just lift the handle?). I'm chosing to leave >>> the RL01 powered up for a little while, in case the electronics havent >>> been powered on for a while, but I doubt that wil fix this problem. >>I meant to say i CANT remove the disk pack. >*Oh*. Double-Oh: now I realize where you're at. You see the pack, you lift the handle, but it doesn't come out. Well, this one's easy: Start with the handle in the *down* position, against the pack. You see the little semi-circular notch on the right-hand side of the middle of the handle? Put your right thumb there. It's a little slide mechanism, you push it to the left. Now, keeping the slide slid to the left, you lift the handle. It should "feel" different than before you slid the slide, and you'll hear a ker-klunk as a lever mechanism disengages the magnetic hold-down on the pack. Lift, and put the pack in its lid!. Do the same to remove the lid from a pack. Occasionally, you'll run across packs where the little slide mechanism that operates the lever action is damaged, and there you've just got to pull hard to get the pack out! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From red at bears.org Fri Oct 22 19:18:51 1999 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: Differences Between CompacTape I, II, III In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991022153337.040f9450@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Oct 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > I also believe the DLT is helical scan versus CompacTape's linear scan > technology. No. The L in DLT stands for "linear". It's also a big reason people prefer DLT to 4mm or 8mm tape. ok r. From danburrows at mindspring.com Fri Oct 22 19:20:24 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: opening a Rl01 drive Message-ID: <029e01bf1cec$687faa80$d252e780@tower166.office> I think you did not slide the thumb release on the handle before you lifted the handle to remove the pack. Dan -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, October 22, 1999 8:13 PM Subject: Re: opening a Rl01 drive >>> I choose to power it up, and I was able to open the top door. However, >>> the FAULT light stays on, i cant lock the cover down anymore, and >>> I can remove the disk pack (just lift the handle?). I'm chosing to leave >>> the RL01 powered up for a little while, in case the electronics havent >>> been powered on for a while, but I doubt that wil fix this problem. > >>I meant to say i CANT remove the disk pack. > >*Oh*. Do you hear a "click" roughly 20 seconds after applying power >to the drive? That's the lid latch solenoid. The "click" means that >you can open it now. > >If you hear the "click" but still can't operate the open-cover latch, >this is likely because the long piece of nylon line that connects the >button to the latch is out of whack. (Or just plain broken!) >Can you slide the button back and forth? If you feel *no* resistance, >then the nylon line is probably broken. If you still can't move the sliding >button at all, then the latch mechanism is screwed up. Some previous >fellow may have tried too enthusiastically to move the slide when he >shouldn't have, and bent or notched something out of whack. It's also >possible for the latch mechanism itself, the other end of the nylon string, >is broken/bent. > >If you don't hear the click, there may be a power supply or logic >board problem. > >In *any* event, if you loosen the four screws holding the plastic >panel on top at the rear of the drive, you can lift up the *entire* >top cover quite handily and see what's going on. > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Oct 22 19:24:15 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: opening a Rl01 drive In-Reply-To: <991022201101.23600896@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at "Oct 22, 1999 08:11:01 pm" Message-ID: <199910230024.AAA21576@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > >> I choose to power it up, and I was able to open the top door. However, > >> the FAULT light stays on, i cant lock the cover down anymore, and > >> I can remove the disk pack (just lift the handle?). I'm chosing to leave > >> the RL01 powered up for a little while, in case the electronics havent > >> been powered on for a while, but I doubt that wil fix this problem. > > >I meant to say i CANT remove the disk pack. > > *Oh*. Do you hear a "click" roughly 20 seconds after applying power > to the drive? That's the lid latch solenoid. The "click" means that > you can open it now. > > If you hear the "click" but still can't operate the open-cover latch, > this is likely because the long piece of nylon line that connects the > button to the latch is out of whack. (Or just plain broken!) > Can you slide the button back and forth? If you feel *no* resistance, > then the nylon line is probably broken. If you still can't move the sliding > button at all, then the latch mechanism is screwed up. Some previous > fellow may have tried too enthusiastically to move the slide when he > shouldn't have, and bent or notched something out of whack. It's also > possible for the latch mechanism itself, the other end of the nylon string, > is broken/bent. > > If you don't hear the click, there may be a power supply or logic > board problem. > > In *any* event, if you loosen the four screws holding the plastic > panel on top at the rear of the drive, you can lift up the *entire* > top cover quite handily and see what's going on. > Top access hatch is open, the solenoid did its job. The problem now is that the fault light is on becuase nothing is connected, and i cannot remove the disk pack by lifting on the handle. if this is normal becuase of the fault, then everything is probably working properly. -Lawrence LeMay From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 22 19:07:18 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: Differences Between CompacTape I, II, III In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991022153337.040f9450@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> (message from Chuck McManis on Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:43:13 -0700) References: <4.1.19991022153337.040f9450@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <19991023000718.9575.qmail@brouhaha.com> > I also believe the DLT is helical scan versus CompacTape's linear scan > technology. It's still linear. That's what the "L" in DLT stands for. For example ECMA Standard 286 defines DLT 6 as having 208 linear tracks. This is alleged to allow for much better tape robustness, since it doesn't get beaten to death with every pass. This is why Seagate, HP, and IBM have joined forces to develop a new LTO (Linear Tape Open) standard: http://www.lto.org/ From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Oct 22 19:33:34 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: opening a Rl01 drive In-Reply-To: <991022201846.23600896@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at "Oct 22, 1999 08:18:46 pm" Message-ID: <199910230033.AAA21593@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > > Double-Oh: now I realize where you're at. You see the pack, you lift > the handle, but it doesn't come out. Well, this one's easy: > > Start with the handle in the *down* position, against the pack. > You see the little semi-circular notch on the right-hand side of the > middle of the handle? Put your right thumb there. It's a little > slide mechanism, you push it to the left. Now, keeping the slide > slid to the left, you lift the handle. > It should "feel" different than before you slid the slide, and you'll > hear a ker-klunk as a lever mechanism disengages the magnetic hold-down > on the pack. Lift, and put the pack in its lid!. > > Do the same to remove the lid from a pack. > Thanks, now I know how it works ;) I've never seen a RL01 in action before. I think we had an RK05 back in the 70's, but I wasnt allowed to operate it (senior high, they only trust you SO far...) -Lawrence LeMay From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Oct 22 19:36:32 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: opening a Rl01 drive Message-ID: <991022203632.23600896@trailing-edge.com> >Thanks, now I know how it works ;) Yeah, well, leave it to me to overlook the actual question and make it much harder than it really is :-). I have come across *several* RL01/2 drives through the years where the latch mechanism didn't work properly because someone had tried to pry the lid open (usually by wedging something in the crack in the front.) This isn't kind to the little latch mechanism, and my worst-case fear is that it's damaged beyond recognition. Tim. From daniel at internet.look.ca Fri Oct 22 19:36:33 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: opening a Rl01 drive Message-ID: <002c01bf1cee$a9184f00$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> I had a bigger problem... A drive lid that always opened! One day (you know where I am going...) I OPENED the lid and tried to remove a pack while it was spinning... Not happy.. Lost that RSTS/E pack. I really like running RK05s.. john -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, October 22, 1999 8:37 PM Subject: Re: opening a Rl01 drive >>Thanks, now I know how it works ;) > >Yeah, well, leave it to me to overlook the actual question and make >it much harder than it really is :-). > >I have come across *several* RL01/2 drives through the years where the >latch mechanism didn't work properly because someone had tried to >pry the lid open (usually by wedging something in the crack in the >front.) This isn't kind to the little latch mechanism, and my worst-case >fear is that it's damaged beyond recognition. > >Tim. > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Oct 22 19:46:18 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: opening a Rl01 drive In-Reply-To: <199910230002.AAA21522@thorin.cs.umn.edu> References: <199910222356.XAA21482@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <4.1.19991022174532.00c249e0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 07:02 PM 10/22/99 -0500, you wrote: >I meant to say i CANT remove the disk pack. There is a little slide thingy on top of the pack, push that to the side while lifting the handle up. This will disengage the pack from the spindle. Then lift carefully straight up. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 22 18:53:55 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? - PCBs at home In-Reply-To: <000a01bf1cc2$7e0ede40$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> from "daniel" at Oct 22, 99 03:20:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2727 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991023/72740d8c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 22 18:57:33 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: More on "discrete" CPUs In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991022121626.00c76280@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Oct 22, 99 12:22:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 697 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991023/9dc49e7a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 22 19:26:48 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: opening a Rl01 drive In-Reply-To: <199910222221.WAA21362@thorin.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Oct 22, 99 10:21:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1436 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991023/855eddf1/attachment.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 22 20:59:22 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: Differences Between CompacTape I, II, III In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991022153337.040f9450@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> References: <3810DB59.2FDD32DA@idirect.com> Message-ID: >>From the following web page: > http://www.anacomp.com/Magnetics/Memorex/m-ctdlt.html > >We have > CompacTape 350 o > CompacTape II 350 o > CompacTape III 1540 o > DLT (all versions) 1850 o > >I also believe the DLT is helical scan versus CompacTape's linear scan >technology. Actually shouldn't the list read more like: TK50 CompacTape 95MB 350 o TK70 CompacTape II 270MB 350 o TK?? CompacTape III (DLT) 20GB/40GB 1540 o TK87 CompacTape IV (DLT) 35GB/70GB 1850 o A III or IV can be used in both DLT4000 and DLT7000 drives, I think the DLT2000 uses III's and the DLT8000 (Least I think that's the new drives designation) use IV's (not sure if they can use III's). There are also some other versions of drives, and I believe tapes. IIIe and IIIxt come to mind. In case anyone cares, a DLT7000 is about a $5000.00 drive and according to specs stores 35GB uncompressed, 70GB compressed (I've seen WELL over 100GB on a single tape). Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Fri Oct 22 21:25:09 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: Last chance before they hit SCRAP... Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991022192509.009654a0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> This is going to the CLASSICCMP and NetBSD port-VAX lists, and to the two PDP-11 newsgroups. RE-PC in Tukwila, WA (south of Seattle) has a whole palletful (at least six) Seagate 'Sabre' series SMD drives NEW in their original packaging. These are already in their carrier tray with a power supply. I don't know capacity or model number -- was rushed, didn't have time to dig -- but I do know that this is the last chance to get them before they're scrapped. I did look at one, briefly. They appear to be the earlier series of Sabre, the ones that sat vertically in their mounting tray, as opposed to the later series that sat flat and were physically smaller. I also confirmed that they're SMD interface by direct viewing of the connectors: One 60-pin and one 26-pin Berg male header, standard .050 pitch. Initial asking price is $20.00 per unit, with definite discounts possible if you get more than one. To put it another way, the store would rather sell them than scrap them, and the manager of the place does recognize that there are those of us who do use the older hardware. Contact Maurice from 10:00 - 19:00 PDT at 206-575-8737 (press 0 during the voice announcement to bypass said announcement and start the phones ringing). They're closed on Sunday, but they'll be open tomorrow (Saturday). I hope this is of interest to at least some of you. Thanks for reading. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From marvin at rain.org Fri Oct 22 22:27:52 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: DOS 1.10 References: Message-ID: <38112B38.806215F6@rain.org> Has anyone else run into trouble reading 8 sector disks under Win95? I tried to read the IBM DOS 1.10 disk and just ran into the Abort, Retry, Ignore error message. When I booted it up and copied it to another disk on the Compaq luggable, everything worked out just fine. From rickb at bensene.com Fri Oct 22 22:31:26 1999 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: Calculator Comparisons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004001bf1d07$17321d00$15e83ace@camaro.bensene.com> Tony wrote: > If we consider calculators for a moment, you can get 2 out of the 3 > machines by : > > Casio AL1000 (discrete transistor, programmable, not scientific) > Casio AL2000 (ICs, much the same functionality as the AL1000) > ???? (All-in-one-chip equivalent) To check these out, see: http://www.geocities.com/oldcalculators/commal-1000.html This is a Commodore AL-1000. It's a Commodore-badged OEM version identical to the Casio AL-1000. and http://www.geocities.com/oldcalculators/casal2k.html This is the Casio AL-2000. You can see quite a difference in size and number of boards as a result of the IC technology used in the AL-2000. Most of the IC's are small scale, but there are a few medium scale (adder and complimenter) IC's in the AL-2000, whereas the AL-1000 all transistor. The third one would be a little more difficult to find, as Casio pretty much abandoned the architecture of their early programmable machines in their later machines, so there's much less of a one-to-one correspondence. The programming capability on the AL-1000 and AL-2000 was extremely simple-minded. > Or : > > HP9100 (discrete transistors, programmable, scientific) > ??? (Equivalemt with simple ICs) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ How about the Cintra/Tektronix 909? It's got much of the functionality that the HP9100 has (but not quite as much memory, and lacks branching functions), and is implemented with mostly SSI and MSI TTL & DTL, along with MOS RAM and ROM. Information on it is at: http://www.geocities.com/oldcalculators/tek909.html > HP65 (Almost the same functionality in a handheld) > > Only worrying thing would be putting the AL2000 and the > HP9100 alongside > each other. They're almost the same size, but the HP uses 'older' > technology and does a lot more... > No doubt that HP pulled a coup on the 9100 machines...the other calculator makers couldn't come close in features, speed, and power until a couple of years later...and by that time, HP had the 9800-series machines, which were again a quantum leap in technology. The AL-2000 is actually quite a bit smaller than the 9100, though. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://www.geocities.com/oldcalculators From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sat Oct 23 00:16:03 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: Calculator Comparisons Message-ID: <19991023051603.996.rocketmail@web607.mail.yahoo.com> --- Rick Bensene wrote: > > Casio AL1000 (discrete transistor, programmable, not scientific) > > Casio AL2000 (ICs, much the same functionality as the AL1000) > > ???? (All-in-one-chip equivalent) > > To check these out, see: > http://www.geocities.com/oldcalculators/commal-1000.html > This is a Commodore AL-1000. It's a Commodore-badged OEM version identical > to the Casio AL-1000. Wow! Thanks for the link. I happen to have a nixie tube strip that looks just like the one in the AL-1000. The one I have has 12 CD71 tubes (plus the minus bulb). On the bottom, there are characters in English and Katakana. Some of the part numbers are "IS-1", "Model 121" and "I2D-E2(B)". The Katakana appear to be representative of digits. I've always wanted to do something with this (like so much of my really good stuff, I've had it since I was a kid). I've just noticed that 12 digits is enough to make an ISO Date compatible clock/calendar (i.e., 199910220116). Is there a good reference around about how to drive a multiplexed neon array going from TTL to 90VAC? -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Oct 23 06:51:27 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? - PCBs at home In-Reply-To: "daniel" "Re: OT: how big would it be? - PCBs at home" (Oct 22, 15:20) References: <000a01bf1cc2$7e0ede40$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> Message-ID: <9910231251.ZM20090@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 22, 15:20, daniel wrote: > Making PCBs at home is a rediculous waste of time. I have a vacuum lightbox > here as well as a commercial processing system, a silkscreening set up, even > a wave solder machine in my home and nothing compares to what the big guys > can do and charge for the same thing. If you're trying to emulate the way a professional PCB house will make them, or if you need moderate to large quantities, I suppose I agree. But for two or three boards, I strongly disagree. I've made dozens, possibly hundreds of PCBs at home or at work, and it doesn't take that long, nor is it very difficult. I certainly prefer it to wire-wrap. Of course, you typically won't be able to get such fine lines, and putting two tracks between the pins of a 0.1" pitch DIP isn't something I'd do. I wouldn't consider using a professional PCB company for a one- or two-off unless it truly was very special, or a prototype for something that later would be made by the hundred. I make same-size artwork on a decent laser printer, and expose that onto sensitized boards. With a little care, registration is easily good enough for double sided PCBs. It's even possible to do plated-through holes, though I don't -- I use track pins, because the through hole stuff is relatively expensive. > My last *production* company use to > make its own prototype doublesided PCBs in house and it wasn't worth it. I > have a company I use now that will make me a double sided PCB, GOLD PLATED > contacts, solder mask both sides (pre-drilled of course), and silk screened, > and cut for less than a $1 a board in quantities of 500. OK, but do they also charge $490 for a one-off prototype? Most companies here charge according to the number of layers and amount of setup -- and that's mostly related to the number of plated holes, not board area. > Pre-sensitised boards are useless as they usually come flawed and the > coating thickness is not consitant. The company I use now for PCBs used a > "roll" of sentised film that was "ironed" onto a 3' X 3' board. Far better > process. Maybe, but I've never had a problem with pre-sensitised board. Sensitising it myself with an aerosol turned out to be a less-than-clever idea, though :-) > Don't forget a good GERBER and NC drill file is needed and most PCB > manufacturers find little problems with the files that you may not uncover > in Most PCB houses here are perfectly happy with 2x size artwork, and many will accept same-size, possibly with a small surcharge. Marvin mentioned a number of ways to produce artwork. I've seen most of them used. Dot matrix printers aren't usually very good in terms of black/white contrast, nor sharpness (but often OK for x2 camera-ready artwork). I once discussed using an offset litho press to print directly onto flexible PCBs, but I don't know if the person I spoke to actually did that -- it should certainly have much higher resolution than a silkscreen. And people really do use tape on mylar film (well, maybe not much nowadays, but it used to be common). Lots of hobbyists over here print onto acetate or drafting film with a laser printer, and that works pretty well -- it goes straight into my light box. Daniel wrote "He drills the boards first, then photosensitizes them. They get UV, then he develops them in water (I think it was). Then he electroforms copper to create plate through holes, then tins, then gold plates, I think then he did the solder mask on both sides (I am sure that was silk screened) and finally the boards were silk-screened (layout), then cut." That's a fairly typical commercial method, except it wouldn't be water development. At home, it would be a weak solution of caustic soda, but that "goes off" very quickly, so a more esoteric substance is used commercially. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From foxvideo at wincom.net Sat Oct 23 07:24:00 1999 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: Heathkit Analog Computer (1956) Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991023082400.007bfad0@mail.wincom.net> While going through some stuff I ran across a specifications folder for this kit. It has circuit diagrams for the individual units and the front panel. Also a couple of articles on how it works. If anyone needs this info I will scan it and forward it. Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Oct 23 08:21:58 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: Calculator Comparisons Message-ID: <991023092158.236008d8@trailing-edge.com> >Wow! Thanks for the link. I happen to have a nixie tube strip that looks >just like the one in the AL-1000. The one I have has 12 CD71 tubes (plus >the minus bulb). On the bottom, there are characters in English and Katakana. >Some of the part numbers are "IS-1", "Model 121" and "I2D-E2(B)". The >Katakana appear to be representative of digits. > >I've always wanted to do something with this (like so much of my really good >stuff, I've had it since I was a kid). I've just noticed that 12 digits >is enough to make an ISO Date compatible clock/calendar (i.e., 199910220116). >Is there a good reference around about how to drive a multiplexed neon array >going from TTL to 90VAC? Can you multiplex a Nixie display in the same way as a LED display? I've never seen it done, but that certainly doesn't mean it isn't possible. If you don't mind direct drive, there are TTL BCD-to-10 decoder chips intended specifically for driving Nixie tubes. I just looked in my newer databook at the 7445 and 74145, and they don't *say* "can directly drive Nixies", but they do have high-voltage open-collector outputs. They look more like open-collector lamp drivers than Nixie drivers to my eye this morning. I swear there were TTL chips which could directly drive (err, well, sink) Nixie displays, but they aren't specifically called out in the newer databooks. I've gotta find the box that has Don Lancasters _TTL Cookbook_, I know there's an example in there. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Oct 23 11:17:12 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: Differences Between CompacTape I, II, III Message-ID: <199910231617.MAA12516@world.std.com> <> I also believe the DLT is helical scan versus CompacTape's linear scan <> technology. No they are all linear. Helical scan is used for some 8mm and most 4mm. What seperates DLT (and the TK50/70 forrunners) is the tape is wider and high bit packing. <> Making PCBs at home is a rediculous waste of time. I have a vacuum lightb No it's not. Right now I'm doing a design that requires two sided and design rules down to 10mils. There are three flat packs <64 pins and and daughter cards for more. The worst part was drilling the 2000 holes and a 3axis NC machine (home grown is not that hard). Most shops cost a fortune to drill and etch a 10x8 card with a quantity of 2. Wire wrap for this design is out of the question. Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19991023091315.214798d8@earthlink.net> At 09:21 AM 10/23/99 -0400, Tim wrote: >Can you multiplex a Nixie display in the same way as a LED display? I've >never seen it done, but that certainly doesn't mean it isn't possible. > >If you don't mind direct drive, there are TTL BCD-to-10 decoder chips >intended specifically for driving Nixie tubes. I just looked in my >newer databook at the 7445 and 74145, and they don't *say* "can directly >drive Nixies", but they do have high-voltage open-collector outputs. These "HV" decoders have 30 and 15 volt output devices. The one for neon lamps or Nixies was the 7441. -Dave From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Oct 23 12:00:58 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: Calculator Comparisons Message-ID: <991023130058.236008d8@trailing-edge.com> >>If you don't mind direct drive, there are TTL BCD-to-10 decoder chips >>intended specifically for driving Nixie tubes. I just looked in my >>newer databook at the 7445 and 74145, and they don't *say* "can directly >>drive Nixies", but they do have high-voltage open-collector outputs. >These "HV" decoders have 30 and 15 volt output devices. The one for neon >lamps or Nixies was the 7441. Thanks for refreshing my memory! Unfortunately NatSemi/Fairchild no longer list the 7441 in their TTL lineup, but I'm sure a dedicated hobbyist could find the parts at Halted Specialties or similar place. Looking in the Fairchild books, the 7442 is still around as a DIP, and combined with a transistor array it'd do a fine job as a Nixie driver. The 74154, I see, is available as a SOIC for surface-mount. Hmm - now all we need is a Hexadecimal Nixie! Did such a thing ever exist? It'd be so cool to have fully formed A-F characters... though of course there would be religious wars over upper vs lower case :-). Tim. From daniel at internet.look.ca Sat Oct 23 12:10:33 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? - PCBs at home Message-ID: <001401bf1d79$84ec7300$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, October 23, 1999 12:19 PM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? - PCBs at home ><> Making PCBs at home is a ridiculous waste of time. I have a vacuum lightb > >No it's not. Right now I'm doing a design that requires two sided and >design rules down to 10mils. Most of my designs are 10mil clearance. My PCB maker *likes* 10mil clearance. > There are three flat packs <64 pins and >and daughter cards for more. The worst part was drilling the 2000 holes >and a 3axis NC machine (home grown is not that hard). Yuck. >Most shops cost a >fortune to drill and etch a 10x8 card with a quantity of 2. Wire wrap for >this design is out of the question. > Sounds like you folks have been quoted a lot higher than I am paying for prototype PCBs (if you had them done in a shop). Could be your the lack of volume production in the past...I guess it depends what your time is worth and the type of project. I'll still knock out quick single boards for patches or small circuits. I do a lot of RF and high speed (50Mhz) design. > >I've done boards that way too. Even hand drawn simple RF layouts on the >board with a SHARPIE pen (solvent based marker pens) for one ups. > I haven't tried that. I use Protel for everything. ><200-300 MHz as well. > >The real trick is fine line stuff. > ><[As an aside, we found some PCB companies were remarkable _bad_ about > >There are plenty of things that can really mess up an otherwise good design >and bad etchs are hell to trace in when bring up for the first time. > That's my point exactly. I just don't have the time anymore to screw around with bad etches... even good etches can be bad in one small place causing all kinds of grief. I've had boards that we did in house that had *microscopic* traces either shorting two pins or jumping two traces together. I had one short so fine once that I could not see it by viewing the board through light... I found it with a meter! And don't even get me started on those pre-sensitized boards... I've had many with hair line cracks in the coating which causes LOADS of grief after the board is done and sometimes when the board is bent. :-( john >Allison > From transit at primenet.com Sat Oct 23 12:55:37 1999 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: Replacement keyboard for Franklin 1000 (Apple clone) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: OK, I was able to remove the keyboard from my Franklin 1000. (There were a couple of keys that were not working at all. Since they were the return key and the space bar, it made using this machine quite interesting, to say the least) The keyswitches seem to be totally sealed (its a Key Tronic 3483), and not even a shot of TV tuner cleaner helped. So, I'm wondering where I could get a replacement keyboard for this machine, or barring that, I might consider selling it for some nominal fee + shipping. (I have other spare Apples lying about, and I have limited time and facilities for major repairs such as unsoldering keyswitches) Let me know what you think, and thanks in advance! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charles P. Hobbs __ __ ____ ___ ___ ____ transit@primenet.com /__)/__) / / / / /_ /\ / /_ / / / \ / / / / /__ / \/ /___ / ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Oct 23 14:06:47 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: Calculator Comparisons In-Reply-To: <991023130058.236008d8@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991023140647.42df5132@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 01:00 PM 10/23/99 -0400, Tim wrote: >>>If you don't mind direct drive, there are TTL BCD-to-10 decoder chips >>>intended specifically for driving Nixie tubes. I just looked in my >>>newer databook at the 7445 and 74145, and they don't *say* "can directly >>>drive Nixies", but they do have high-voltage open-collector outputs. > >>These "HV" decoders have 30 and 15 volt output devices. The one for neon >>lamps or Nixies was the 7441. > >Thanks for refreshing my memory! Unfortunately NatSemi/Fairchild no longer >list the 7441 in their TTL lineup, but I'm sure a dedicated hobbyist could >find the parts at Halted Specialties or similar place. There's a store here that carries lots of these old ICs. Let me know if you have trouble finding them and want me to check on some. > Joe From jhfine at idirect.com Sat Oct 23 15:05:41 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: Differences Between CompacTape I, II, III References: <3810DB59.2FDD32DA@idirect.com> Message-ID: <38121514.56B676F3@idirect.com> >Zane H. Healy wrote: > >>From the following web page: > > http://www.anacomp.com/Magnetics/Memorex/m-ctdlt.html > > > >We have > > CompacTape 350 o > > CompacTape II 350 o > > CompacTape III 1540 o > > DLT (all versions) 1850 o > > > >I also believe the DLT is helical scan versus CompacTape's linear scan > >technology. > > Actually shouldn't the list read more like: > > TK50 CompacTape 95MB 350 o > TK70 CompacTape II 270MB 350 o > TK?? CompacTape III (DLT) 20GB/40GB 1540 o > TK87 CompacTape IV (DLT) 35GB/70GB 1850 o Jerome Fine replies: Special thanks to Chuck McManis and Zane Healy for the URL and the information. Based on the data within the above tables (and at the URL), there seems no doubt that DEC practised their usual antics back in the 1980s when they practised their standard marketing policy of adding "nothing". From my experience with CompacTape and CompacTape II, I can definitely say that these two tapes ARE VERY DIFFERENT: The CompacTape is usually labelled with a BROWN designation and the CompacTape II is usually BLUE!! Does anyone remember if there was also a price difference between CompacTape and CompacTape II????????? Incidentally, on a PDP-11, my experience is that about 70 MBytes can be written using a TK50 and that takes about 50 minutes if streaming mode can be maintained. To verify that information took many hours. For a TK70, I have been able to write about 275 MBytes on the tape in about 1 hour and verification takes between 1 hour and 20 minutes and 2 hours depending on the hardware configuration and other things I do not understand - the key point is that verification is at worst, only twice as long. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From marvin at rain.org Sat Oct 23 15:15:58 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:04 2005 Subject: DOS 1.10 References: <199910231617.MAA12837@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3812177E.546AF4FC@rain.org> Allison J Parent wrote: > > > W9x driver assumes default formats. use a dos box to copy the contents of > the disk to a format the winbox knows. FYI: Don't bother win9x in dos mode > as it's still the same drivers. I was running in a DOS box when doing the above. Since then, I made a diskcopy on the Compaq and went back to try reading it under win95 with the same results. My guess is that win9x no longer supports the 8 sector format, but I don't for sure. I might add that I was doing this with a HD floppy drive, but I wouldn't think that would affect the reading of the disk. From thompson at mail.athenet.net Sun Oct 24 15:10:04 1999 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:05 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <199910231617.MAA12516@world.std.com> Message-ID: Greetings I will likely have the above system coming available by the end of the year. I would like to determine if there are any interested parties on this list. The adoptive person would need to be available to pick it up in Appleton, WI (near Green Bay) on relatively short notice: within a week or two of its coming available. What will be available is basically the box as described below from the console printout. As you see it is fully equipped with 512MB of RAM. The star coupler and various CI widgets are not available other than the machine's own CIBCA. Also, it does not have any directly attached DSSI or SDI disks. The built in TK70 tape drive for console media has been removed although I am pretty sure I still have a TK50 tape with console media on it. It runs and currently boots VMS5.5-2 from the CI. Let me know if you have room for this beast. F E D C B A 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 NODE # A A . . M M M M . P P P . . TYP o o . . + + + + . + + + . . STF . . . . . . . . . E E B . . BPD . . . . . . . . . + + + . . ETF . . . . . . . . . E E B . . BPD . . . . . . . . . + . . + . + . XBI D + . . . . . . . . . + . + . . + . XBI E + . . . . A4 A3 A2 A1 . . . . . . ILV . . . . 128 128 128 128 . . . . . . 512 Mb Console = V3.00 RBDs = V3.00 EEPROM = 2.00/3.04 SN = AG93307590 ?002D For Secondary Processor 5 ?0054 EEPROM revision mismatch. Secondary processor has revision 2.00/3.00 Type Rev 3+ KA65A (8080) 000B 4+ KA65A (8080) 000B 5+ KA65A (8080) 000B 7+ MS65A (4001) 0084 8+ MS65A (4001) 0084 9+ MS65A (4001) 0084 A+ MS65A (4001) 0084 D+ DWMBA/A (2001) 0002 E+ DWMBA/A (2001) 0002 XBI D 1+ DWMBA/B (2107) 000A 3+ DMB32 (0109) 210B 6+ TBK70 (410B) 0307 XBI E 1+ DWMBA/B (2107) 000A 4+ CIBCA-B (0108) 42C2 6+ DEBNI (0118) 0400 Current Primary: 3 /NOENABLED- /NOVECTOR_ENABLED- /NOPRIMARY- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 23 13:15:58 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:05 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? - PCBs at home In-Reply-To: <9910231251.ZM20090@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Oct 23, 99 11:51:27 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4257 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991023/39b7ed3c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 23 13:21:37 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:05 2005 Subject: Calculator Comparisons In-Reply-To: <991023092158.236008d8@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Oct 23, 99 09:21:58 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1633 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991023/301c8364/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 23 13:00:59 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:05 2005 Subject: Calculator Comparisons In-Reply-To: <004001bf1d07$17321d00$15e83ace@camaro.bensene.com> from "Rick Bensene" at Oct 22, 99 08:31:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4018 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991023/57494d03/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 23 13:03:28 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:05 2005 Subject: Calculator Comparisons In-Reply-To: <19991023051603.996.rocketmail@web607.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 22, 99 10:16:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 535 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991023/1ff2793a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 23 13:43:02 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:05 2005 Subject: Calculator Comparisons In-Reply-To: <991023130058.236008d8@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Oct 23, 99 01:00:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 865 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991023/6afbe10c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 23 13:53:06 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:05 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? - PCBs at home In-Reply-To: <001401bf1d79$84ec7300$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> from "daniel" at Oct 23, 99 01:10:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3163 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991023/384d9510/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Oct 23 16:05:03 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:05 2005 Subject: Differences Between CompacTape I, II, III Message-ID: <199910232105.RAA28711@world.std.com> <> Actually shouldn't the list read more like: <> <> TK50 CompacTape 95MB 350 o <> TK70 CompacTape II 270MB 350 o <> TK?? CompacTape III (DLT) 20GB/40GB 1540 o <> TK87 CompacTape IV (DLT) 35GB/70GB 1850 o < -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, October 23, 1999 4:51 PM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? - PCBs at home >> >Most shops cost a >> >fortune to drill and etch a 10x8 card with a quantity of 2. Wire wrap for >> >this design is out of the question. >> > >> >> >> Sounds like you folks have been quoted a lot higher than I am paying for >> prototype PCBs (if you had them done in a shop). Could be your the lack of > >Well, you seemed to be implying you got them done for $1 or something >(you claimed no set-up charges). I've never heard of pricing like that >for one-offs... Of course not.. on a small board like that... usually a $100 for 10 or so. I have never paid a set up fee. Again, most shops will. I got lucky. This shop and I have done quite a bit of business and I have helped him get some solder fountain equipment for his tests... I get an excellent rate... and it makes my prototypes boards bug free. I like that! > >> >> >> Ferric Chloride is awful. If I *have* to do a quick small one-off board I >> use very hot Ammonium Persulfate. > >I am reliably informed that the persulphate etchants break down if >overheated. You might want to watch this (<50C?) > > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I know, on critical strip line work I sit down with the guy and we double >> check the widths on the film. > >By which point you might as well have done the darn thing yourself... > I rarely do a board JUST for prototype/experimental reasons. Most of my boards end up in production so it's a lot easier to iron out the bugs in the prototype stage for production. I take it you do mostly one-off experimental stuff. >I learnt years ago that if you have to check everything that somebody >else (PCB house, etc) is doing at every stage, then quite simply it's a >lot faster and less hassle to do it yourself.. > >> >> That's my point exactly. I just don't have the time anymore to screw around >> with bad etches... even good etches can be bad in one small place causing > >A lot of minor faults can be patched over for prototypes... > Been there, done that. >> all kinds of grief. I've had boards that we did in house that had >> *microscopic* traces either shorting two pins or jumping two traces >> together. I had one short so fine once that I could not see it by viewing >> the board through light... I found it with a meter! > >I've had boards come back from a PCB house with a note saying that >they've checked them against my netlist. And I've _still_ had internal >shorts (which _weren't_ in the netlist). > >I got to the point of checking for real nasties (power-ground shorts, >etc) with a meter, and then populating them, checking as I go. Quite >simply, if you don't know what effect a short or open will have on your >design then you don't really understand the design in the first place. >But as ever, you check things a little at a time. > >> >> And don't even get me started on those pre-sensitized boards... I've had >> many with hair line cracks in the coating which causes LOADS of grief after >> the board is done and sometimes when the board is bent. :-( > >Hmm... Again, _for prototypes_ you should know just what effect such a >crack would have. And then you can easily fix it (the signal reflection >at a small repair like this will cause no problems at all!). > The idea of prototype to me is have the "ideal" conditions. Boards with these problems are easy to find BUT many intermittant problems can come from them. Ie: move the board and it craps out. >Almost every board I have been involved with has been an experimental >design/prototype. So cut-n-jumper mods are occasionally necessary anyway. >Fixing PCB problems (which are _NOT_ common in my experience on homebrew >boards) is no great hassle. > > Okay that's different. I design products, final stuff. I design a board, have about 10 prototypes knocked out.. sometimes some minor changes are made, then it goes to production. My own prior company (outside my current employer) did lots of this work so after a few prototypes were assembled I would send the job to Taiwan with a schedule. I try to wirewrap when possible on experimental type stuff but nothing beats quick PCBs. Again, depends on your pocket $$, application, turn around time, and if it's a hobby or serious $$. >-tony > From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Oct 23 18:11:52 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:05 2005 Subject: Calculator Comparisons Message-ID: <199910232311.TAA12871@world.std.com> In a message dated 10/18/99 12:50:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mikeford@socal.rr.com writes: > > I and many others have given the issue a LOT of thought, and basically the > idea of a "live" finish is EXTREMELY popular among both buyers and sellers. > Implementing it is not a small or simple problem, especially within the > browser environment which expects the user to ask for updates. > One of the other sites I sell on is the LabX auction. This is a 'Live Finish' auction where the time is extended in two minute increments until there are no more bids. I think it has a real time function but I have never used it. I have only sold. never bought. I really like their format for an auction. It does keep the feeling of the oral auction. LabX makes their income off of much higher listing fees than ebay. They do not charge the transaction fee. This seems to be stable software. I have been using them for a couple of years. I believe they will sell their software. I recommend LabX if you have to buy or sell lab equipment. Many pieces of lab equipment use classic computers within, to keep this on topic. http://www.labx.com I do think having a 'live finish' raises the prices paid. Paxton From Innfogra at aol.com Sat Oct 23 18:46:08 1999 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:05 2005 Subject: EBaying; howling after an auction Message-ID: <0.b8c0aeab.2543a2c0@aol.com> In a message dated 10/17/99 5:54:47 PM Pacific Daylight Time, thompson@mail.athenet.net writes: > hat is one aspect of Ebay that I don't understand -- that some sellers > will put multiple identical items up at the same time potentially keeping > their bid prices down by preventing a war between two anxious prospective > buyers over one item. It seems to make sense to put a large number of > different items out at once instead. > From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Oct 23 18:54:56 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:05 2005 Subject: Differences Between CompacTape I, II, III In-Reply-To: <199910232105.RAA28711@world.std.com> Message-ID: >A foolish remark. The change and added "nothing" as you called it was >the TK50 media was formatted (init'ed) and verified at the higher bit >density. It was also marked differently so these with TK70 and TK50s in >their sites would know them apart (and DEC would in their stockrooms too). The init'ing and verifying can add a LOT to the price of the tapes. Around '95-96 I was responsible for a wierd Sun-based system that used a VCR like device for backups. The tapes were just like Video Tapes, but cost about $80 a pop, instead of about $2 for plain video tapes. The difference was they were data grade tapes that had been verified to be error free. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From musicman38 at mindspring.com Sat Oct 23 19:04:20 1999 From: musicman38 at mindspring.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:05 2005 Subject: a bit offtopic Message-ID: <009c01bf1db3$544dce80$af358ad1@home> >I just bought a Philips Odyssey 2001, i know it`s a bit offtopic >but does anyone know how old it is ?. The first thing I did was >to open it up to look for somekind of infomation to it`s age >but I did`t find any dates at all. I have found a bit infomation >about a Odyssey 100 & 200, but nothing about a 2001. > >Regards Jacob Dahl Pind Best I can tell this machine was manufactured in 1978, and is not very common unlike the 2000, 200 and 500 series pong games by Magnavox.. Its also closely related to the Phillips European version called the G7000.. Hope this helps.. Phil... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 23 18:40:49 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:05 2005 Subject: Calculator Comparisons In-Reply-To: <199910232311.TAA12871@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Oct 23, 99 07:11:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 662 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991024/d3828584/attachment.ksh From daniel at internet.look.ca Sat Oct 23 20:55:36 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:05 2005 Subject: Help - Is there a paper tape BASIC for a PDP 8/S Message-ID: <001d01bf1dc2$de409aa0$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> I am hoping to find BASIC (not FOCAL) for the PDP 8 line. I can't run OS/8 so I am hoping to find a BASIC that will run on my 8/S in binary form. A) Does this even exist? B) Is it on the Web? Thanks, this 8/S is proving to be lots of fun. BTW: I just got this message on my PDP tonight: "Congratulations!! You have successfully loaded 'FOCAL' on a PDP 8/S computer." Yippee! john From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Oct 23 22:15:15 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:05 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Freeware CD progress! Message-ID: <991023231515.2360093e@trailing-edge.com> Hi Folks, Over a week ago here I announced the availability of the RT-11 Freeware CD, and many folks have ordered copies through Amazon.com. I'm guessing (hoping) that all US folks who had ordered early on have received their copies by now. With a little bit of luck, international airmail may have come through for the folks outside the US too. (Though Kevin tells me that his still hasn't arrived in Vancouver, and that has me a bit worried. Some folks in the Seattle area got theirs on Tuesday - and Vancouver just isn't all that much further away, at least if you ignore that border! I wonder if the Customs Canada folks are puzzling over the concept of RT-11 and that's what is slowing things down...) The RSX-11 Freeware CD's are coming along. Present plans are for there to be 4 (yes, *four*) CD's in the set. Two will contain ODS-1 filesystems, and will be directly readable on an -11 with attached CD-ROM drive, and two will contain ISO9660 filesystems, and be convenient for browsing or study on a PC or workstation. I was rather lucky with the RT-11 CD that I could squeeze both an ISO9660 volume and 7 RT-11 partitions on the same disc. There's just *way too much* RSX-11 stuff to do this for the RSX-11 collection, and besides there's no easy way to put both ISO9660 and ODS-1 filesystems on the same disc. For those anxious folks who want to see the RSX CD labels, they can point their browser at http://www.trailing-edge.com/www/freeware.html If any wants to correct the grammar on the labels, specifically the section that attempts to explain where you should use the ODS-1 CD's and where you should use the ISO9660 CD's, they're welcome to whack away! Current plans are for me to sell all 4 RSX CD's in a set for $40.00. I did once have thoughts of making one set of two for ISO9660 users and a different set of two for ODS-1 users, but I decided that I'd just confuse potential users too much about which set they really needed and as a result the CD's wouldn't get into the hands of potential users. Of course, by packaging all four at once I have to charge a bit more money for the larger set, and maybe this keeps the CD's out of the hands of some potential users too. If anyone has any feelings/thoughts on this issue, I'd be glad to hear them! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From rws at enteract.com Sat Oct 23 23:30:41 1999 From: rws at enteract.com (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:05 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Oct 1999, Paul Thompson wrote: > I will likely have the above system coming available by the end of the > year. I would like to determine if there are any interested parties on > this list. The adoptive person would need to be available to pick it up > in Appleton, WI (near Green Bay) on relatively short notice: within a week > or two of its coming available. > Let me know if you have room for this beast. I don't know much about Vaxen, or DEC anything for that matter, but I'd like to learn. How big is it? How old is it? How's the loading facilities? What sort of power is required? I'm 150 miles straight south of Appleton (near Chicago), so if it's good, I might be able to make room. Richard Schauer rws@enteract.com From rickb at bensene.com Sat Oct 23 23:45:33 1999 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:05 2005 Subject: Calculator Comparisons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005401bf1dda$9c6983e0$15e83ace@camaro.bensene.com> > > >much less common in test gear which is why I guess you've not seen it. > > > > Really, never saw many that did, the vacuum florescent (bluegreen) > > were generally mux'ed.. > > Maybe I wasn't being very clear. What I meant was that many of the > calculators that used nixie tubes multiplexed them. Direct drive of > nixie tubes in calculators is very rare (I can't think of an > example off the top of my head). > Some early electronic calculators did use directly driven Nixies that were not multiplexed. Two examples: The Sumlock Anita C/VIII (Mark 8). Each Nixie was on a 'daughter' board with a 10-stage ring-counter (implemented with Thyratron tubes) that directly drove each 'digit' inside the Nixie. (See http://www.geocities.com/oldcalculators/anitaC-VIII.html Another example is the Sharp Compet 20 (Sharp's second electronic calculator). Each 'digit' card has a 4-bit shift register implemented with discrete transistor flip-flops that the BCD digit is shifted into. Along with the shift register, there is gating logic and driver transistors to convert the BCD digit in the register into a 1-of-10 to drive the Nixie. (See http://www.geocities.com/oldcalculators/comp20.html By the late 1960's, most Nixie calculators used multiplexing to reduce the complexity of the circuitry. Most machines used a bit-serial ALU anyway, and the main registers were made up of shift registers or bits circulating in an acoustic delay line, or bits in a core stack, and simply 'scanning' through each digit was a normal part of the operation of the machine anyway, so the multiplexing was almost 'free' in terms of the additional logic needed to run the display. Rick Bensene The Old Calculators Web Museum http://www.geocities.com/oldcalculators From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Oct 24 00:05:23 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:05 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991023220043.00a839d0@mcmanis.com> Think "refrigerator", think "family of four." Depends a bit on the peripherals as well. Check out http://www.digital.com/timeline/1988-2.htm (and check out the vax-vixen, this was clearly before DEC started selling to women :-) --Chuck At 11:30 PM 10/23/99 -0500, you wrote: >I don't know much about Vaxen, or DEC anything for that matter, but I'd >like to learn. How big is it? How old is it? How's the loading >facilities? What sort of power is required? From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 24 00:10:46 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:05 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 References: <4.2.0.58.19991023220043.00a839d0@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <99102401113501.23153@vault.neurotica.com> On Sun, 24 Oct 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: >Think "refrigerator", think "family of four." Depends a bit on the >peripherals as well. >Check out http://www.digital.com/timeline/1988-2.htm (and check out the >vax-vixen, this was clearly before DEC started selling to women :-) Whoa, she's kinda neat. ;) The 65xx machines were more like '91-'93, and much *much* faster than the first 6000 machines. -Dave McGuire From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Sun Oct 24 00:11:27 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:05 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 References: Message-ID: <011201bf1dde$74961000$0200a8c0@cafe1> ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard W. Schauer To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Sunday, October 24, 1999 2:00 PM Subject: Re: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 > I don't know much about Vaxen, or DEC anything for that matter, but I'd > like to learn. How big is it? How old is it? How's the loading > facilities? What sort of power is required? 1. Big. Think refridgerator. Weight is around 500lbs. If you need to know exactly, I'll dig out a manual with all the dimensions weights etc. 2. Probably built circa 1988-91 3. Since it doesn't have a Disk controller (the poster said this is a CI only machine) it can only be netbooted, either over the CI from a HSC50/70 etc or via ethernet from another Vax that is configured to be a MOP bootserver. The TK70 tape is bootable also. Currently the only OS's that it will run are VMS and Ultrix. A net-bsd port is being considered at the moment. There is a hobbyist license (free) available for VMS via DECUS. Ultrix is a proprietary/commercial/ugly Unix variant. So to use it effectively, you'd need to install an internal disc controller or a HSx server of some kind. (I don't recommend getting a HSC50 or 70, they are medium size filing cabinet sized gizmos and require a passive hub (star coupler) the same size before they can be used in anger. The HSC uses about the same amount of power as the vax, and is 3 phase, though it's fairly trivial to convert to single phase.) HSJ's are smaller but more expensive. Never had one to play with.... SCSI, DSSI and SDI controllers are available for these, so it would be possible to obtain say, a s/h BI bus scsi controller, and mount the drives inside the main cabinet powered from the system supplies. (Trust me, they can handle it) There are both Digital and 3rd party controllers available. (I have some 3rd party ones) If you want heavy metal, an SDI controller will talk to 4 drives, from RA8x series (don't recommend these, big, heavy (64kg), noisy and unreliable) to RA7x series, (House bricks in the size/weight dept - but reliable enough & 12v/5v powered. RA72's are 1gb and make nice system disks.) RA9x are ok, though a bit hungrier (mains powered) and really need a SAxxx cabinet to mount in. Weigh in around 30kg each. Add terminal/s and a network connection and you have a very nice, fairly quick SMP system. We use a 6000-440 as a web/ftp/mail/pop3 & proxy server. Performance : ---- Mariah chip series (1991) - Decimal SID = 301989888 --------+------------ 12 | 2 | 1202|13-58 | XBCD | VAX 6000 model 510-560 | Calypso/XMP Around 13 VUPS per cpu, (1 VUP ~ 1 MIPS) on this scale a 530 (3 cpu version) is good for around 39 VUPS, depending on how well the SMP works for that app.. 4. 3 phase. However it can be modded to single phase without too much drama. Actual power requirements are only around 500-600w depending on the board fit etc. FWIW a 6000-300 with 1 cpu uses 1.9A @ 240vac. As "Big" boxes go, it's probably the easiest to run in a home user environment, especially in the power consumption department. I have an 8530 at home as well, but am not contemplating running it at present. Hope this helps. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au From ddameron at earthlink.net Sat Oct 23 22:32:36 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:05 2005 Subject: Calculator Comparisons In-Reply-To: References: <199910232311.TAA12871@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19991023223236.21bf2c24@earthlink.net> At 12:40 AM 10/24/99 +0100, Tony wrote: >And yes, VF displays are almost always multiplexed The multi-digit ones >always are, but there were some single-digit VF display tubes. Never seen >the latter in use, though. I have a calculator board with 12 single digit VF 7 segment displays. By looking at the transistor placement, they appear to be multiplexed. Have not traced the circuit to figure out how they biased each display (all the filaments are in series). It also has a few early NEC ic's such as uPD10, uPD16. Anyone have any data such as supply voltages for these? The neg. sign is a neon lamp, so there is a bit of "HV" on the board. -Dave > > From mac at Wireless.Com Sun Oct 24 01:43:50 1999 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:05 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <99102401113501.23153@vault.neurotica.com> Message-ID: > The 65xx machines were more like '91-'93, and much *much* faster than the > first 6000 machines. > > -Dave McGuire See http://www.digital.com/timeline/1990-4.htm Looks like the 6500 was about 13 VAX-11/780 MIPS. That would make it about 2x to 3x slower than a 486DX2/66. -Mike From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Sun Oct 24 03:42:46 1999 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:05 2005 Subject: Anderson Digital Computer Message-ID: <002301bf1dfb$bfa93f00$e83ac018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> A junk dealer I stay in touch with tells me he has an ancient computer he insists is labelled "Anderson Digital Computer". He says it is a metal box containing a screen and a separate keyboard. I'm to go to see it this week some time. Can anyone shed some light on what this might be? He knows nothing about computers so it might be an XT clone for all I know. Hans From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Oct 24 03:51:30 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:05 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Sun, 24 Oct 1999, Paul Thompson wrote: > >> I will likely have the above system coming available by the end of the >> year. I would like to determine if there are any interested parties on >> this list. The adoptive person would need to be available to pick it up >> in Appleton, WI (near Green Bay) on relatively short notice: within a week >> or two of its coming available. >> Let me know if you have room for this beast. > >I don't know much about Vaxen, or DEC anything for that matter, but I'd >like to learn. How big is it? How old is it? How's the loading >facilities? What sort of power is required? With machines like this there is a saying, "If you need to ask....". Basically it's a large machine, larger than a 19" rack (only about 4.5-5 feet tall though). IIRC, the power requirements aren't that bad, you should be able to run it off a dryer circuit (as long as the dryer isn't in use), and it's single phase. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Oct 24 07:03:28 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:05 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 Message-ID: <991024080328.2360093e@trailing-edge.com> >With machines like this there is a saying, "If you need to ask....". >Basically it's a large machine, larger than a 19" rack (only about 4.5-5 >feet tall though). IIRC, the power requirements aren't that bad, you >should be able to run it off a dryer circuit (as long as the dryer isn't in >use), and it's single phase. Hmm - I know that lower-numbered 6000 CPU's had three-phase 208V power supplies. At what point did they go back to single phase? Not that a three-phase power requirement on a 6000 is a killer - they actually don't suck very much current, so a electronic phase converter on a dryer circuit is a *very* reasonable approach. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Oct 24 09:54:20 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:05 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 Message-ID: <199910241454.KAA00350@world.std.com> Figure about 1992-93 for that model. I used to have accounts on one when I was at DEC. Today's haul. Found at a garage sale! A complete HP-86A computer system. Here's what I got. 5933-7832(D) Series 80 Personal Computer Retail Price List HP/5933-7804 Series 80 Personal Computer Software Catalog (6/83) 00087-13519 Word/80, HP-86/87, Hewlett Packard Series 80 case w/ Manual, pocket guide, 1 5.25 fd, ovl. 00087-13511 VisiCalc PLUS, HP-86/87, Hewlett Packard Series 80 case w/ Manual, pocket guide, 1 5.25 fd. 00087-13520 File/80, HP-86/87, Hewlett Packard Series 80 case w/ Manual, pocket guide, 6 5.25 fd. 00085-13046 Surveying Pac, HP-83/85, Hewlett Packard Series 80 case w/ Manual, 1 5.25 fd. 82950-90001 HP 82950A Modem Owner’s Manual 00087-90121 I/O ROM Owner’s Manual 00085-90003 rD HP-85 Standard Pac Manual 00086-90014 Introduction to the HP 86 00087-90017 HP-86/87 Operating and BASIC Programming Manual 82901-90001 HP 82901 M/S, HP 82902 M/S Flexible Disc Drive Operator’s Manual 82937-90017 HP-IB Interface Owner’s Manual 00087-90614 Miksam ROM Owner’s Manual, HP-86/87 00087-90612 Miksam ROM Pocket Guide, HP-86/87 00087-90141 Assembler ROM Pocket Guide, HP-87 00087-90001 HP-86/87 Pocket Guide HP 82950A Modem HP 82909A 128K Memory Module HP 82913A Video Monitor HP 82937 HP-IB interface HP-86 computer (“A” model with built-in parallel printer port and two built-in floppy drive interfaces.) 83A Okidata printer. HP ??? Parallel printer cable HP 82929A Programmable ROM Module HP 82936A ROM Drawer with: 000877-15002 Plotter ROM 00087-15003 I/O ROM 00087-60912 “Service ROM-- System” 00087-12035 System Demonstration Disc, HP-86/87 (5.2.5” disk) 00083-12056 82950A MODEM Communications, Series 80 (5.2.5” disk) 00087-15007 Assembler (5.2.5” disk) Not bad for one day! :-) Joe From marvin at rain.org Sun Oct 24 11:36:05 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:05 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 References: <199910241454.KAA00350@world.std.com> Message-ID: <38133575.25EF4939@rain.org> Well, it had to happen. There is the Basic version of the IBM 5100 up for auction on ebay; the current price is $610 with 9 1/2 days to go. This will be the first time I have seen the 5100 sold there, and it will be interesting to see where the pricing goes!!! The URL is: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=187128153 From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sun Oct 24 12:13:00 1999 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:05 2005 Subject: New day = new toy! HP-86 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19991023195157.3ebffa5e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: Congrats, Joe! Nice stuff! On Sat, 23 Oct 1999, Joe wrote: > Today's haul. Found at a garage sale! A complete HP-86A computer system. > Here's what I got. >=20 >=20 >=20 > 5933-7832(D)=09Series 80 Personal Computer Retail Price List=20 > HP/5933-7804=09Series 80 Personal Computer Software Catalog (6/83) > 00087-13519=09Word/80, HP-86/87, Hewlett Packard Series 80 case w/ Manual= , > pocket guide, 1 5.25 fd, ovl. > 00087-13511=09VisiCalc PLUS, HP-86/87, Hewlett Packard Series 80 case w/ > Manual, pocket guide, 1 5.25 fd. > 00087-13520=09File/80, HP-86/87, Hewlett Packard Series 80 case w/ Manual= , > pocket guide, 6 5.25 fd. > 00085-13046=09Surveying Pac, HP-83/85, Hewlett Packard Series 80 case w/ > Manual, 1 5.25 fd. >=20 > 82950-90001=09HP 82950A Modem Owner=92s Manual > 00087-90121=09I/O ROM Owner=92s Manual > 00085-90003 rD=09HP-85 Standard Pac Manual > 00086-90014=09Introduction to the HP 86 > 00087-90017=09HP-86/87 Operating and BASIC Programming Manual > 82901-90001=09HP 82901 M/S, HP 82902 M/S Flexible Disc Drive Operator=92s= Manual > 82937-90017=09HP-IB Interface Owner=92s Manual > 00087-90614=09Miksam ROM Owner=92s Manual, HP-86/87 > 00087-90612=09Miksam ROM Pocket Guide, HP-86/87 > 00087-90141=09Assembler ROM Pocket Guide, HP-87 > 00087-90001=09HP-86/87 Pocket Guide >=20 > HP 82950A =09Modem > HP 82909A=09128K Memory Module > HP 82913A=09Video Monitor > HP 82937=09HP-IB interface > HP-86=09=09computer (=93A=94 model with built-in parallel printer port an= d two > built-in floppy drive interfaces.) > 83A=09=09Okidata printer. > HP ???=09=09Parallel printer cable > HP 82929A =09Programmable ROM Module > HP 82936A=09ROM Drawer with: > 000877-15002=09Plotter ROM > 00087-15003=09I/O ROM > 00087-60912=09=93Service ROM-- System=94 >=20 > 00087-12035=09System Demonstration Disc, HP-86/87 (5.2.5=94 disk) > 00083-12056=0982950A MODEM Communications, Series 80 (5.2.5=94 disk) > 00087-15007=09Assembler (5.2.5=94 disk) >=20 >=20 > Not bad for one day! :-) >=20 > Joe >=20 >=20 From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Oct 24 13:36:42 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:05 2005 Subject: New day = new toy! HP-86 References: <3.0.1.16.19991023195157.3ebffa5e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <002501bf1e4e$e23575e0$55721fd1@jrkeysppt> Great finds, I also picked up a HP 98203C unit yesterday at a thrift store. ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Saturday, October 23, 1999 7:51 PM Subject: New day = new toy! HP-86 > Today's haul. Found at a garage sale! A complete HP-86A computer system. > Here's what I got. > > > > 5933-7832(D) Series 80 Personal Computer Retail Price List > HP/5933-7804 Series 80 Personal Computer Software Catalog (6/83) > 00087-13519 Word/80, HP-86/87, Hewlett Packard Series 80 case w/ Manual, > pocket guide, 1 5.25 fd, ovl. > 00087-13511 VisiCalc PLUS, HP-86/87, Hewlett Packard Series 80 case w/ > Manual, pocket guide, 1 5.25 fd. > 00087-13520 File/80, HP-86/87, Hewlett Packard Series 80 case w/ Manual, > pocket guide, 6 5.25 fd. > 00085-13046 Surveying Pac, HP-83/85, Hewlett Packard Series 80 case w/ > Manual, 1 5.25 fd. > > 82950-90001 HP 82950A Modem Owner's Manual > 00087-90121 I/O ROM Owner's Manual > 00085-90003 rD HP-85 Standard Pac Manual > 00086-90014 Introduction to the HP 86 > 00087-90017 HP-86/87 Operating and BASIC Programming Manual > 82901-90001 HP 82901 M/S, HP 82902 M/S Flexible Disc Drive Operator's Manual > 82937-90017 HP-IB Interface Owner's Manual > 00087-90614 Miksam ROM Owner's Manual, HP-86/87 > 00087-90612 Miksam ROM Pocket Guide, HP-86/87 > 00087-90141 Assembler ROM Pocket Guide, HP-87 > 00087-90001 HP-86/87 Pocket Guide > > HP 82950A Modem > HP 82909A 128K Memory Module > HP 82913A Video Monitor > HP 82937 HP-IB interface > HP-86 computer ("A" model with built-in parallel printer port and two > built-in floppy drive interfaces.) > 83A Okidata printer. > HP ??? Parallel printer cable > HP 82929A Programmable ROM Module > HP 82936A ROM Drawer with: > 000877-15002 Plotter ROM > 00087-15003 I/O ROM > 00087-60912 "Service ROM-- System" > > 00087-12035 System Demonstration Disc, HP-86/87 (5.2.5" disk) > 00083-12056 82950A MODEM Communications, Series 80 (5.2.5" disk) > 00087-15007 Assembler (5.2.5" disk) > > > Not bad for one day! :-) > > Joe > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Oct 24 15:16:55 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:05 2005 Subject: New day = new toy! HP-86 In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19991023195157.3ebffa5e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991024151655.0a0fe104@mailhost.intellistar.net> Thanks, I thought so. I left out the dual disk drive (HP 82901M). Joe At 10:13 AM 10/24/99 -0700, Marvin wrote: >Congrats, Joe! Nice stuff! > > >On Sat, 23 Oct 1999, Joe wrote: > >> Today's haul. Found at a garage sale! A complete HP-86A computer system. >> Here's what I got. >> >> >> >> 5933-7832(D) Series 80 Personal Computer Retail Price List >> HP/5933-7804 Series 80 Personal Computer Software Catalog (6/83) >> 00087-13519 Word/80, HP-86/87, Hewlett Packard Series 80 case w/ Manual, >> pocket guide, 1 5.25 fd, ovl. >> 00087-13511 VisiCalc PLUS, HP-86/87, Hewlett Packard Series 80 case w/ >> Manual, pocket guide, 1 5.25 fd. >> 00087-13520 File/80, HP-86/87, Hewlett Packard Series 80 case w/ Manual, >> pocket guide, 6 5.25 fd. >> 00085-13046 Surveying Pac, HP-83/85, Hewlett Packard Series 80 case w/ >> Manual, 1 5.25 fd. >> >> 82950-90001 HP 82950A Modem Owner’s Manual >> 00087-90121 I/O ROM Owner’s Manual >> 00085-90003 rD HP-85 Standard Pac Manual >> 00086-90014 Introduction to the HP 86 >> 00087-90017 HP-86/87 Operating and BASIC Programming Manual >> 82901-90001 HP 82901 M/S, HP 82902 M/S Flexible Disc Drive Operator’s Manual >> 82937-90017 HP-IB Interface Owner’s Manual >> 00087-90614 Miksam ROM Owner’s Manual, HP-86/87 >> 00087-90612 Miksam ROM Pocket Guide, HP-86/87 >> 00087-90141 Assembler ROM Pocket Guide, HP-87 >> 00087-90001 HP-86/87 Pocket Guide >> >> HP 82950A Modem >> HP 82909A 128K Memory Module >> HP 82913A Video Monitor >> HP 82937 HP-IB interface >> HP-86 computer (“A” model with built-in parallel printer port and two >> built-in floppy drive interfaces.) >> 83A Okidata printer. >> HP ??? Parallel printer cable >> HP 82929A Programmable ROM Module >> HP 82936A ROM Drawer with: >> 000877-15002 Plotter ROM >> 00087-15003 I/O ROM >> 00087-60912 “Service ROM-- System” >> >> 00087-12035 System Demonstration Disc, HP-86/87 (5.2.5” disk) >> 00083-12056 82950A MODEM Communications, Series 80 (5.2.5” disk) >> 00087-15007 Assembler (5.2.5” disk) >> >> >> Not bad for one day! :-) >> >> Joe >> >> > > From mac at Wireless.Com Sun Oct 24 14:44:43 1999 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:05 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <199910241454.KAA00350@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Oct 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: > <2x to 3x slower than a 486DX2/66. > > Not even close. More like a stack of a dozen or more of the 486s. It If you look at: http://www.digital.com/timeline/1990-4.htm It states: "The VAX 6500 processor delivered approximately 13 times the power of a VAX-11/780 system, per processor." To me, that means "13 MIPS". 13 MIPS is about 2 to almost 3 times slower than a 486dx2/66. But let's take a look at some Dhrystone 2.1 numbers I found: CPU MIPS MIPS System OS CPU (MHz) V1.1 V2.1 ---------------------- ------------ ----------- ----- ------ ------ VAX 8650 4.3 BSD ----------- 18 6.3 6.2 cc -non_shared -DUNIX -O5 -ifo 80486DX2/66 Linux 2.0.0 80486DX2 66 29.3 26.9 gcc 2.7.2, gcc -DUNIX -O2 80486DX2/66 NetBSD 1.4.1 80486DX2 66 ---- 34.4 egcs -DUNIX -O2 For the Dhrystone 2.1 case, 26.9 / 6.2 = 4.33 --> dx2/66 is 4 1/3 times as fast as the 8650. (Using the slower Linux numbers, too). As a sanity check, look at http://www.digital.com/timeline/1984-3.htm For the 8600, it states: "The VAX 8600, shown here during assembly, offered up to 4.2 times the performance of the industry standard VAX-11/780... ". Therefore, the 8600 was 4.2 MIPS. I can't find Dhrystone 2.1 numbers for the 8650, but let's be generous, and assume that the 8650 was 1.5x as fast as the 8600 (because the 785 was 1.5x the 780). That puts the 8650 at 6.3 MIPS, which is in rough agreement with the other Dhrystone number, above. And, back of the envelope, the 6500 was 2x the 8650. So, if it is not a typo on http://www.digital.com/timeline/1990-4.htm then my original assertion is, indeed, correct: The 6500 is 2x to 3x slower than a dx2/66. ( And the vax 6000-530 is even slower. ) I don't know what it is about collectors that somehow confuses their memories of the past; maybe their internal core memories have suffered some bit flips? ;-) (I have some old junk, too, so I consider myself in the same camp...) Fact is, these old machines were slow, noisy, hot, power-guzzling behemouths compared with what we have today. > usually ran between 30-50 VT1200 Xwindows type terminals under VMS 5.5 > plus the usual batch load and plain terminal user base. As you know, the vax would run the X -client- which, of course, is not much of a load. And as for running 50 users, heck, at the VCF 3.0 there was a guy showing an 8080 running timesharing on a bunch of terminals! Therefore, to me, you have to measure the performance in some repeatable way. Dhrystone is not the perfect benchmark (which is close to an oxymoron anyway), but it is -a- benchmark for integer CPU performance. > for any IO despite the SCSI, could not multitask well and was known for > crashing (w3.11) something uncommon the VAX world. It's too bad that you had to run w3.11; I'm assuming you're running a real OS on the dx2/66. > Apples and oranges, the VAX especially the bigger models with the CI and > other high perf IO busses can easily pound PCI pentiums into the ground > for shear load. Now, let's talk about busses. Just how fast -was- this CI? Let's compare that with 66 MHz 64-bit PCI, which has 66e6 x 64 = 4,224,000,000 bits/sec peak throughput. What was CI's throughput? > Allison -Mike Cheponis From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 24 14:30:32 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:05 2005 Subject: Last chance before they hit SCRAP... In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991022192509.009654a0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> (message from Bruce Lane on Fri, 22 Oct 1999 19:25:09 -0700) References: <3.0.5.32.19991022192509.009654a0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <19991024193032.17701.qmail@brouhaha.com> Bruce Lane wrote: > six) Seagate 'Sabre' series SMD drives NEW in their original packaging. > These are already in their carrier tray with a power supply. I don't know What brand of carrier? I've got a fair number of ST41201J SMD drives (1.2G) in System Industries carriers in Milpitas (near San Jose); if anyone needs them we can work out a trade. I've recently learned that there are different flavors of SMD. The high-transfer rate drives use the SMD-E interface, which uses differential ECL transceivers for the data and clock on the radial interface, vs. TTL-compatible stuff on the earlier drives. I'm hoping to use some of these on a system that was originally set up for Fujitsu Eagles (M2351), but I haven't found any online reference that indicates the data transfer rate or geometry of the Eagle, or whether it uses SMD-E. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 24 14:37:24 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:05 2005 Subject: Differences Between CompacTape I, II, III In-Reply-To: <38121514.56B676F3@idirect.com> (message from Jerome Fine on Sat, 23 Oct 1999 16:05:41 -0400) References: <3810DB59.2FDD32DA@idirect.com> <38121514.56B676F3@idirect.com> Message-ID: <19991024193724.17734.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Based on the data within the above tables (and at the URL), > there seems no doubt that DEC practised their usual > antics back in the 1980s when they practised their standard > marketing policy of adding "nothing". From my experience > with CompacTape and CompacTape II, I can definitely > say that these two tapes ARE VERY DIFFERENT: > The CompacTape is usually labelled with a BROWN > designation and the CompacTape II is usually BLUE!! > Does anyone remember if there was also a price difference > between CompacTape and CompacTape II????????? Yes. The CompacTape II (TK70) tape was certified for use in the TK70 drive. I suspect that the TK70 drive used more tracks than the TK50, but I haven't dug up specifications to be sure. Before you jump all over DEC for doing this, remember that it was (and is) standard practice in the entire disk and tape media industry to offer the same media at different certification levels for different prices. From chris at mainecoon.com Sun Oct 24 15:06:17 1999 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:05 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 References: Message-ID: <381366B9.A33EBF39@mainecoon.com> Mike Cheponis wrote: [stuff deleted] > So, if it is not a typo on http://www.digital.com/timeline/1990-4.htm > then my original assertion is, indeed, correct: The 6500 is 2x to 3x slower > than a dx2/66. ( And the vax 6000-530 is even slower. ) It looks to me like Allison was making an assertion about thruput in a multiuser configuration. Thruput in a demand paged operating system is generally bounded by I/O bandwidth, not CPU bandwidth, so the fact that the 486 turns in better integer performance doesn't invalidate her argument. > I don't know what it is about collectors that somehow confuses their > memories of the past; maybe their internal core memories have suffered some > bit flips? ;-) (I have some old junk, too, so I consider myself in the > same camp...) No confusion; there are simply different metrics for performance and she's using a different one than you. You are both, in fact, correct. The 486 will outperform the VAX in integer performance, but the VAX has bundles more bandwidth to disk than the 486 ever dreamed of. > Fact is, these old machines were slow, noisy, hot, power-guzzling behemouths > compared with what we have today. No argument there ;-) [snip] > Therefore, to me, you have to measure the performance in some repeatable > way. Dhrystone is not the perfect benchmark (which is close to an oxymoron > anyway), but it is -a- benchmark for integer CPU performance. Right. To address Allison's argument you need to measure sustained and burst bandwidth to disk. [snip] > > Apples and oranges, the VAX especially the bigger models with the CI and > > other high perf IO busses can easily pound PCI pentiums into the ground > > for shear load. > > Now, let's talk about busses. Just how fast -was- this CI? Let's compare > that with 66 MHz 64-bit PCI, which has 66e6 x 64 = 4,224,000,000 bits/sec > peak throughput. What was CI's throughput? Dunno; perhaps Allison does. Never was much of a VAX fan... Best, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Sun Oct 24 15:46:23 1999 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:05 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: from Mike Cheponis at "Oct 24, 1999 12:44:43 pm" Message-ID: <19991024204637Z433861-8505+165@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > On Sun, 24 Oct 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: > > > > <2x to 3x slower than a 486DX2/66. > > > > Not even close. More like a stack of a dozen or more of the 486s. It > > If you look at: > > http://www.digital.com/timeline/1990-4.htm > > It states: "The VAX 6500 processor delivered approximately 13 times the > power of a VAX-11/780 system, per processor." > > To me, that means "13 MIPS". 13 MIPS is about 2 to almost 3 times slower > than a 486dx2/66. > > > But let's take a look at some Dhrystone 2.1 numbers I found: > > CPU MIPS MIPS > System OS CPU (MHz) V1.1 V2.1 > ---------------------- ------------ ----------- ----- ------ ------ > VAX 8650 4.3 BSD ----------- 18 6.3 6.2 > cc -non_shared -DUNIX -O5 -ifo > > 80486DX2/66 Linux 2.0.0 80486DX2 66 29.3 26.9 > gcc 2.7.2, gcc -DUNIX -O2 > > 80486DX2/66 NetBSD 1.4.1 80486DX2 66 ---- 34.4 > egcs -DUNIX -O2 > > > For the Dhrystone 2.1 case, 26.9 / 6.2 = 4.33 --> dx2/66 is 4 1/3 times as > fast as the 8650. (Using the slower Linux numbers, too). > > As a sanity check, look at http://www.digital.com/timeline/1984-3.htm > > For the 8600, it states: "The VAX 8600, shown here during assembly, offered > up to 4.2 times the performance of the industry standard VAX-11/780... ". > Time for a short lecture in hardware architecture (you can tell where I'm from :-)). Integer performance is a very misleading measure of performance when you are talking about system performance. Not even the supercomputing community uses raw integer or floating point performance as a benchmark, there are far too many other issues. For example, all except the most recent PCs, there is only a single bus. This bus must be used for all memory transfers, graphics, I/O, etc. On a single user system, this is sometimes okay, but for multiple users forget it. Most of the VAXes had multiple busses, and each was dedicated to a particular function. This meant that the combined throughput was considerably more than any existing PC bus. One of the main problems with all of the PC chips is the limited speed of the FSB. Its no good having high integer performance if you can't get the data in or out of the CPU. I do a lot of high end graphics, both on PCs and SGIs. Individually the components on the PCs are faster than the corresponding components on the SGI. The old 195Mhz R10000 do match up to PIII processor speeds, and I can buy PC graphics cards that have more raw graphics power than an IR pipe. But, the overall system performance of the SGI is at least 5x better than the best PC configuration, and it can bury the PC on any app that moves a lot of data. Large systems were designed and built for throughput, so its quite possible that one of these old systems could outrun a modern PC in high throughput applications. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 24 13:26:58 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:05 2005 Subject: Calculator Comparisons In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.19991023223236.21bf2c24@earthlink.net> from "Dave Dameron" at Oct 23, 99 10:32:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1865 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991024/7e8d5472/attachment.ksh From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Oct 24 16:21:19 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:05 2005 Subject: Available sale/trade: OSI Challenger 1P Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19991024142119.067210a0@agora.rdrop.com> Another step in my ongoing attempts to bring some focus (and room) to my collection. (and help finance a possible upcoming major restoration project) Ohio Scientific Challenger 1P microcomputer Includes 5.25 diskette drive, manuals, software (original disks plus extras). Unit is in overall good shape, some paint wear around the keyboard (no wrist rests back in those days). Pictures available on my web site. Have not fired it up in some time so it exact condition is unknown but it is complete. I'm thinking $250.00 (plus shipping) unless someone convinces me that I'm totally out of the park on that. Interesting trades (see the 'Most Wanted' list on my web site for ideas) always entertained. -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From mac at Wireless.Com Sun Oct 24 16:24:54 1999 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:05 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <19991024204637Z433861-8505+165@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> Message-ID: Mark Green wrote: > Mike Cheponis wrote: >> Looks like the 6500 was about 13 VAX-11/780 MIPS. That would make it about >> 2x to 3x slower than a 486DX2/66. > Integer performance is a very misleading > measure of performance when you are talking about system performance. My main belief is that nobody is going to keep a VAX anything running with dozens of simultaneous users. So, if a VAX is to be something close to "useful" today, it'll be in single-user mode. In that case, Integer performance is very important. Now, perhaps if we were to port Apache to the VAX, and used that I/O bandwidth on multiple DS3s, well, that's great. > for example, all except > the most recent PCs, there is only a single bus. This bus > must be used for all memory transfers, graphics, I/O, etc. > On a single user system, this is sometimes okay, but for > multiple users forget it. Hey, I'm not saying the original IBM PC was going to outperform the VAX 6500; but a modern PC will crush any VAX in any application, IMHO, with equivalent h/w attached. > Most of the VAXes had multiple > busses, and each was dedicated to a particular function. What are: 1) The names of these busses? 2) Their uses? 3) Their peak and average throughputs? I certainly know for a fact that UNIBUS performed very poorly. I don't have data at my fingertips, but it seems to me it was around 10 Mb/s (that megabits/sec) peak throughput. [I prefer measuring throughputs in bits/sec since that normalizes across different bus widths.] > This meant that the combined throughput was considerably more > than any existing PC bus. I'm trying to get away from fuzzy terms like "considerably more" and get to hard, cold numbers. Just -exactly- how fast were these things? And, if you don't like Dhyrstone 2.1, then what benchmarks -can- we use? >One of the main problems with >all of the PC chips is the limited speed of the FSB. Its >no good having high integer performance if you can't get >the data in or out of the CPU. Fast dual-port SRAM solves the problem, but commodity PCs aren't designed that way. Also, the AGP bus uses mega-RAM to speed up PC graphics, for example. > I do a lot of high end graphics, both on PCs and SGIs. > of the SGI is at least 5x better than the best PC > configuration, and it can bury the PC on any app that moves a lot of data. I appreciate the SGI vs PC datapoint, but what's the PC vs VAX datapoint? >Large systems were designed and built for throughput, so its quite possible >that one of these old systems could outrun a modern PC in high throughput >applications. OK, then what's the performance of a VAX running Apache vs a K7 running Apache? -Mike Cheponis From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Oct 24 17:01:54 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:05 2005 Subject: Benchmark Wars (was Re: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530) In-Reply-To: References: <19991024204637Z433861-8505+165@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991024145242.02123d60@mcmanis.com> Several people have gone after this topic many different times. It can't be "won." It can't be won because computers are tools and one can always find an application that makes less efficient use of the tool to "prove" their point. If you're doing ray tracing, get a fast PC. If you're timesharing dozens of people, a VAX is not a bad choice. Its all about "balance" and truly good designers can get good balance for the task at hand without being stuck in some rut. My favorite example was the HP2000 with BASIC supporting 40 users. In our lab at school we had one of the "fast" ones (it had some addon from a floating point company (FPS?)) and it was considered too pokey for anything compared to the 11/55. But over in the business school the very same model (sans FP, but same group of machines donated by HP) was comfortably running what seemed like zillions of HP terminals in HPBASIC. Balance. --Chuck (For Mike, have you ever actually run a 486 based PC architecture machine with a dozen actual serial interfaces connected to terminals? It is instructive because the damn things saturate the ISA bus and no disk traffic happens at all! On a PCI equipped bus with the users coming over the network via telnet its workable, but for terminal based I/O the DEC timeshare systems were (and probably still are) the best that you can buy.) From chris at mainecoon.com Sun Oct 24 17:00:53 1999 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:05 2005 Subject: Last chance before they hit SCRAP... References: <3.0.5.32.19991022192509.009654a0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> <19991024193032.17701.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <38138195.C144C29@mainecoon.com> Eric Smith wrote: [snip] > I'm hoping to use some of these on a system that was originally set up for > Fujitsu Eagles (M2351), but I haven't found any online reference that > indicates the data transfer rate or geometry of the Eagle, or whether > it uses SMD-E. I used to have the docs you're looking for (read "I still have them but have no clue where they're hiding just now). I'll see if I can dig them up. I doubt the Eagle is SMD-E; I had one running off an old Adaptec SCSI-to-SMD adapter which ran off +5/+12 and I don't recall any DC/DC converters on the board. Best, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Oct 24 17:42:04 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:05 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 Message-ID: <199910242242.SAA14514@world.std.com> Fact is, these old machines were slow, noisy, hot, power-guzzling behemou <> compared with what we have today. < Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991025084054.00a2a4e0@pobox.une.edu.au> At 18:42 24-10-99 , Olminkhof wrote: >A junk dealer I stay in touch with tells me he has an ancient computer he >insists is labelled "Anderson Digital Computer". He says it is a metal box >containing a screen and a separate keyboard. > >I'm to go to see it this week some time. Can anyone shed some light on what >this might be? Anderson Digital was a Melbourne (Vic Australia!) based manufacturer. They also were dealers for DEC if I remember correctly. Anyway, it is probably a CPM machine - early 80's vintage. They did build some nice gear - a bit pricy at the time though Dean From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 24 17:27:33 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:06 2005 Subject: Last chance before they hit SCRAP... In-Reply-To: <38138195.C144C29@mainecoon.com> (message from Chris Kennedy on Sun, 24 Oct 1999 15:00:53 -0700) References: <3.0.5.32.19991022192509.009654a0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> <19991024193032.17701.qmail@brouhaha.com> <38138195.C144C29@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <19991024222733.18455.qmail@brouhaha.com> Chris Kennedy wrote: > I doubt the Eagle is SMD-E; I had one running off an old Adaptec > SCSI-to-SMD adapter which ran off +5/+12 and I don't recall any DC/DC > converters on the board. The big issue for me isn't whether the interface is ECL, since I can always kluge an adapter. It's more a matter of whether the controller I want to use them with can handle the 24 Mbps data rate. Which it probably can't. From mac at Wireless.Com Sun Oct 24 18:01:48 1999 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:06 2005 Subject: Benchmark Wars (was Re: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991024145242.02123d60@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: > If you're doing ray tracing, get a fast PC. > If you're timesharing dozens of people, a VAX is not a bad choice. I remain unconvinced(!). > It's all about "balance" and truly good designers can get good balance for > the task at hand without being stuck in some rut. That's certainly true, and nice ancedote w/HP2000 vs 11/55. > --Chuck > (For Mike, have you ever actually run a 486 based PC architecture machine > with a dozen actual serial interfaces connected to terminals? It is > instructive because the damn things saturate the ISA bus and no disk > traffic happens at all! (Hi Chuck!) Here's my back-of-the-envelope: The 16-bit ISA bus on a 486dx2/66 runs at 8 MHz. The total bus throughput for memory operations is 32 megabits/sec. (4 cycles = 500 ns, 16 bits/cycle). If your dozen uarts are on a memory-mapped card, and you're pumping 19.200 b/s continuously to the dozen uarts, that's 184,320 b/s required by the uarts. That's only about 0.6% of the available bus bandwidth (about one uart transfer every 174 Main Memory references.) Yes, you do have to work hard with such slow memory, and now we understand why cache memory was so important even on dx2/66 motherboards. So, yeah, keeping a dozen terminals blazing output would be "fun" with an ISA-only bus! (Incidentally, I am -not- advocating ISA as some sort of "wunderbus"; on the contrary, I remain amazed that it has taken the PC industry as long as it has to recognize the importance of I/O speed. 64-bit 66 MHz PCI and 2x AGP are steps in the right direction... Yes, the microcomputer industry seems hellbent on re-discovering what the mainframe and mini guys knew 20 or 40 years ago...) --------- Something happened between the days of the 1620 and 1401, and Today; Back Then, Men were Men and programmers knew how to write code that was fast, tiny, and worked great. Today, anything under 100 MB is considered a "small" program... And performance? Ha! Don't make me laugh! Beat it to death with Uncle Gordon Moore's 2x every 18 months, they say... -Mike Cheponis From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Oct 24 18:09:33 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:06 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 Message-ID: <199910242309.TAA26543@world.std.com> References: <9910231251.ZM20090@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991024193338.00982200@mail.30below.com> On or about 07:15 PM 10/23/99 +0100, Tony Duell was caught in a dark alley speaking these words: >Oh, don't get me started on trying that... And that toner-transfer film >isn't that good either... Isn't that good? My, you're certainly in the mood of understatement today, Tony. I've tried that stuff (thinking... This is cool. I can finally prototype PCB boards for my classic interfacing projects relatively easily...) and I can officially say that it really, really, really sucks. And the worst part? It's not that cheap, either. (certainly affordable, if it worked... which it doesn't.) For the problems with acetate, try getting a transparency film designed for the actual printer that you intend on using. Toners are quite different, including their fusing temperatures, fineness, and other factors. Another thing to watch for with this iron-on crap (or laser film, or whatever): Don't run it thru the printer twice. The high fusing heat changes something in the media that seems to make it right close to worthless the 2nd time round. I think that's what happened to me; the 600 DPI HP's use a "micro-toner" which fuses at a higher temperature, and I think it changed the media so it wouldn't "iron-on" easily, not to mention I don't think the iron got hot enough to xfer the toner if that's a factor on the process working right. Some of the newer "photo" inkjets might work pretty well for artwork, too... My wife's Epson Photo 700 does this thing called "micro-weave" for the photo papers. It essentially takes 1/4 swipes at the image, and prints the image 4 times at 1/4 density with the full printhead, so there's virtually no banding. I've not tried it (have a laser) but it just might work. As always, YMMV and all that... Roger "Merch" Merchberger ===== Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- zmerch@30below.com SysAdmin - Iceberg Computers ===== Merch's Wild Wisdom of the Moment: ===== Sometimes you know, you just don't know sometimes, you know? From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Oct 24 18:43:01 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:06 2005 Subject: Benchmark Wars (was Re: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530) In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19991024145242.02123d60@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19991024162509.021251b0@mcmanis.com> At 04:01 PM 10/24/99 -0700, Mike wrote: >(Hi Chuck!) > >Here's my back-of-the-envelope: [snip] Ok, you've considered the memory bandwidth without considering: 1) That disk transfers also happen across this bus. 2) Other I/O (mouse? Sound? Video?) 3) The interrupt load on the CPU. As an empirical note the 16450 UART often could not be serviced fast enough by the 486DX66 to prevent it from dropping incoming characters above 9600 baud. That was even with the "FastCOM" driver that came with Procomm plus for DOS, not until the 16550 added a 16 (or was it 32) character FIFO did it work. Now multiply that by 12? Say 9600 baud, every types a key. That is 12 interrupts to service while you're potentially trying to push out 12 streams of bytes. Anyway, the VAX (and most DEC gear) got around this by having channel processors _everywhere_ and of course the modern PC has channel processors _nowhere_. (IDE taking this to the logical extreme) Somewhere I've got an 8 port serial card that was built for the 16 bit ISA bus (it has 8 mini-din connectors on the card edge). The thought was to run UNIX on a 486 and use terminals for multiple students. It didn't work. The PC couldn't keep up. I fully admit though that given source code I might have been able to make it work :-) --Chuck From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Sun Oct 24 19:05:08 1999 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:06 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: from Mike Cheponis at "Oct 24, 1999 02:24:54 pm" Message-ID: <19991025000515Z433872-8503+215@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > Mark Green wrote: > > > Mike Cheponis wrote: > >> Looks like the 6500 was about 13 VAX-11/780 MIPS. That would make it about > >> 2x to 3x slower than a 486DX2/66. > > > Integer performance is a very misleading > > measure of performance when you are talking about system performance. > > My main belief is that nobody is going to keep a VAX anything running with > dozens of simultaneous users. So, if a VAX is to be something close > to "useful" today, it'll be in single-user mode. In that case, Integer > performance is very important. > You've got to be kidding!!! Most VAXes out there are running large multiuser systems. The VAX has not been out of production for very long, and there are still a considerable number of systems that are running on them. If you meant it in terms of dozens of users being too small, I might agree. Many of these systems are running more like hundreds of users. > Now, perhaps if we were to port Apache to the VAX, and used that I/O bandwidth > on multiple DS3s, well, that's great. > > > > for example, all except > > the most recent PCs, there is only a single bus. This bus > > must be used for all memory transfers, graphics, I/O, etc. > > On a single user system, this is sometimes okay, but for > > multiple users forget it. > > Hey, I'm not saying the original IBM PC was going to outperform the VAX 6500; > but a modern PC will crush any VAX in any application, IMHO, with equivalent > h/w attached. > The problems is equivalent hardware. You can't configure a PC like a VAX, they are two different types of machines. A PC is tuned for a single user, while a VAX is tuned for many users. These are very different machine configurations, and even the latest PC would have no hope of keeping up to a decade old VAX running a large multiuser application. Many of the PC manufacturers have tried to scale PCs to this level and they have all failed. This is why companies like IBM, HP, SUN and SGI are still selling big iron, and sales are increasing rapidly. There is a huge demand for server style systems, and single bus systems like the PC can't scale to the performance required. > > > Most of the VAXes had multiple > > busses, and each was dedicated to a particular function. > > What are: > > 1) The names of these busses? > 2) Their uses? > 3) Their peak and average throughputs? You've completely missed the point here. Its not the speed of the individual bus, but its the number of busses. The more busses, the more parallelism and the less waiting. One fast bus works well until you want to do multiple things, and then it quickly becomes a bottleneck. I believe Allison has already given you the speeds of some of these busses, and at least some of them are faster than any PC bus. > > I certainly know for a fact that UNIBUS performed very poorly. I don't have > data at my fingertips, but it seems to me it was around 10 Mb/s (that > megabits/sec) peak throughput. [I prefer measuring throughputs in bits/sec > since that normalizes across different bus widths.] The UNIBUS was only on the early VAXes, and it was there to support legacy peripherals. This meant you didn't need to buy a whole new set of peripheral when you upgraded to a VAX. Remember that the early VAXes also had PDP11 compatibility mode, so you could move your existing applications over to them with conversion. > > > And, if you don't like Dhyrstone 2.1, then what benchmarks -can- we use? Each application area has their own set of benchmarks that reflect their use of the machine. For example, a lot of the supercomputer centers use fluid dynamics programs to evaluate machines, since that's what takes up most of their cycles. We take a two pronged approach to graphics performance. One is to run some standard visualization and measure frame rate (this ties us to the real world). Second is to run a set of programs that measure individual aspects of the graphics pipeline, such as transformation rate (as a function of vertices/polygon), fill rates, lighting rates, texture rates, along with where the pipeline blocks. This give us a pretty good picture of the display, and how we will need to generate code to drive it. > > > >One of the main problems with > >all of the PC chips is the limited speed of the FSB. Its > >no good having high integer performance if you can't get > >the data in or out of the CPU. > > Fast dual-port SRAM solves the problem, but commodity PCs aren't designed > that way. Also, the AGP bus uses mega-RAM to speed up PC graphics, for example. > You've been reading too much sales literature. AGP has no effect on a wide range of graphics applications. The only place its a big win is texture mapping. In all other cases the geometry still has to go through the CPU, which is FSB limited, no matter how fast the memory is. > Its interesting to note that SGI fell into the same trap that you did when they design their graphics PCs. They put all sort of bandwidth in that thing, and then found that the competition blew them away, one of the main reasons SGI is in so much trouble now! They didn't realize that the PC is FSB limited, and all the bandwidth they had built in couldn't be used. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From edick at idcomm.com Sun Oct 24 19:41:45 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:06 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? - PCBs at home Message-ID: <000801bf1e81$b84976e0$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> First of all, I haven't read ALL of this thread, but I recall Tony or someone else replying to him saying something about the method for making plated through two-sided boards in your home. I've never met anyone aside from professionals with scads of equipment who could do that, but it seems to me that the method which was described to me was to start with bare fiberglass/epoxy panels, drill them, then apply a slightly conductive coating in liquid form which had to be forcibly dried (perhaps baked) before the resist was applied. The boards were then exposed, the films applied to registration targets on each side, to a powerful UV light, for which some prefer to use direct sunlight, and the boards subsequently developed, then etched. Has any of you ever encountered an approach to this that could be managed in the home environment with equipment costing, nominally, less that a k-buck or two and achieving nominally 10-mil traces with 8-10 mil separation or anything close to that? How about a dry-film solder mask? Please share your experience, real or semantic. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Roger Merchberger To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, October 24, 1999 5:21 PM Subject: Re: OT: how big would it be? - PCBs at home >On or about 07:15 PM 10/23/99 +0100, Tony Duell was caught in a dark alley >speaking these words: > >>Oh, don't get me started on trying that... And that toner-transfer film >>isn't that good either... > >Isn't that good? My, you're certainly in the mood of understatement today, >Tony. I've tried that stuff (thinking... This is cool. I can finally >prototype PCB boards for my classic interfacing projects relatively >easily...) and I can officially say that it really, really, really sucks. >And the worst part? It's not that cheap, either. > >(certainly affordable, if it worked... which it doesn't.) > >For the problems with acetate, try getting a transparency film designed for >the actual printer that you intend on using. Toners are quite different, >including their fusing temperatures, fineness, and other factors. Another >thing to watch for with this iron-on crap (or laser film, or whatever): >Don't run it thru the printer twice. The high fusing heat changes something >in the media that seems to make it right close to worthless the 2nd time >round. > >I think that's what happened to me; the 600 DPI HP's use a "micro-toner" >which fuses at a higher temperature, and I think it changed the media so it >wouldn't "iron-on" easily, not to mention I don't think the iron got hot >enough to xfer the toner if that's a factor on the process working right. > >Some of the newer "photo" inkjets might work pretty well for artwork, >too... My wife's Epson Photo 700 does this thing called "micro-weave" for >the photo papers. It essentially takes 1/4 swipes at the image, and prints >the image 4 times at 1/4 density with the full printhead, so there's >virtually no banding. I've not tried it (have a laser) but it just might work. > >As always, YMMV and all that... >Roger "Merch" Merchberger >===== >Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- zmerch@30below.com >SysAdmin - Iceberg Computers >===== Merch's Wild Wisdom of the Moment: ===== >Sometimes you know, you just don't know sometimes, you know? From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Oct 24 12:38:49 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:06 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? - PCBs at home In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: OT: how big would it be? - PCBs at home" (Oct 23, 19:15) References: Message-ID: <9910241838.ZM2324@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 23, 19:15, Tony Duell wrote: > We found that toner didn't stick that well to acetate film, and that we > often ended up with gaps in tracks, etc. Amazingly, printing onto _paper_ > and giving it a very long exposure in the UV box helped a lot. Sounds > crazy, but I've got the boards to prove it :-) I find drafting film is best - but make sure you get the type that withstands the heat of a laserprinter or photocopier :-) > Many components can be soldered on both sides (Turned-pin IC sockets help > here, but I use nothing else anyway). For those that can't I use the > proper track pins. The PTH 'repair' kits are out of this world when it > comes to prices... I don't like soldering components on both sides, because it makes modifications/repairs harder later. For special purposes, I do sometimes use pins extracted from turned-pin sockets, though, and I don't mind soldering those on both sides. > There's always the good old HP plotter with a metal-tipped pen onto film. > Takes a bit of fiddling, and it's slow, but it works. And it's a _lot_ > cheaper to find an old HP A3 (or larger) plotter than a similar laserprinter. I forgot about that one -- silly, because in a previous job, we used to do that quite a lot. > For small board ( hobbyist. Pick up an old CX or SX engined machine and rebuild it (this > _is_ classiccmp, after all) :-)... Yup. And the older engines often seem to be better for this sort of purpose than the newer ones. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Oct 24 19:48:38 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:06 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: References: <19991024204637Z433861-8505+165@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> Message-ID: >My main belief is that nobody is going to keep a VAX anything running with >dozens of simultaneous users. So, if a VAX is to be something close >to "useful" today, it'll be in single-user mode. In that case, Integer >performance is very important. Ah, to bad you don't know what you're talking about here. I know of a certain major corporation that just got done putting a whole pile of new VAX 7000's in a brand new computer room. Said corporation has numerous computer rooms with VAXen, and these systems are heavily used. >Hey, I'm not saying the original IBM PC was going to outperform the VAX 6500; >but a modern PC will crush any VAX in any application, IMHO, with equivalent >h/w attached. Speed isn't everything. I'd rather have a nice VAX than a modern PC, you've also got to consider the fact that PC's aren't the most reliable of platforms, and most run an OS that totally sucks! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Oct 24 20:05:25 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:06 2005 Subject: Benchmark Wars (was Re: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530) Message-ID: <199910250105.VAA17189@world.std.com> <> If you're doing ray tracing, get a fast PC. <> If you're timesharing dozens of people, a VAX is not a bad choice. < It's all about "balance" and truly good designers can get good balance fo <> the task at hand without being stuck in some rut. Big time Chuck. I like the mix, I like to mix. Thinking of the 11/55 story. 1970, KA10 (PDP10) 300 users (mostly TTYs) in schools never using more than maybe 70%. Plus batch processes for version clerical tasks related to the operation of the BOCES LIRYCS timeshare system. Now That was BIG iron (12 6ft racks!). But if I took all the PCs needed to provide the same interconnected services and stacked them up they would easily outweigh the KA10 and much more power, try 300x200W that is 60KW, the Ka10 was under 10KW and like near 6KW. <> (For Mike, have you ever actually run a 486 based PC architecture machine <> with a dozen actual serial interfaces connected to terminals? It is <> instructive because the damn things saturate the ISA bus and no disk <> traffic happens at all! < <(Hi Chuck!) < from Allison J Parent at "Oct 24, 1999 6:42: 4 pm" Message-ID: <199910250117.VAA19850@pechter.dyndns.org> Allison -- > Yes, I know and have done. I've tried to run a p133 as a unix host (not > a web server) as a timeshare client and it doesn't load as well as the > VS2000 I have. OK... I was with you until you hit this one... What OS (which bad Unix was this...) I'll take a BSD version on the P133 over Ultrix on the Vax and love to see what the benchmarks are... BTW -- was this an IDE drive P133 (that's probably the main problem) > Allison Who prefers running an AMD 586/133 with 32mb of memory over a 64mb of memory Sparc2 or a 64mb or memory Sparc10 with SunOS or a Solaris 7 Ultra. (Who prefers an 11/780 or better Vax running Vax/VMS (what's this Open/VMS #$%^& marketing @#$%^ anyway...) (I can't afford an Alpha yet...) Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Oct 24 20:28:34 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:06 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? - PCBs at home Message-ID: <199910250128.VAA29508@world.std.com> I moved my PDP-8/e this weekend and have been inventorying and testing various components. At the moment, the PSU isn't cooperating. ISTR there were some molex connector jumpers at various points, but I may be missing one or two. Up on the front, I have an empty 3-pin molex shell on, IIRC, P5. On the back, there is one 3-pin jumper in place and an empty 3-pin connector next to it. I get no lights, no sound, no nothing out of this. The fuses are good. Any suggestions? -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun Oct 24 20:35:53 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:06 2005 Subject: Vax vs. Intel PC In-Reply-To: <199910250117.VAA19850@pechter.dyndns.org> from Bill Pechter at "Oct 24, 1999 9:17: 3 pm" Message-ID: <199910250135.VAA20039@pechter.dyndns.org> One day I'll proofread what I toss out quickly... This should've been Bill -Who prefers running an AMD 586/133 with 32mb of memory over a 64mb of memory Sparc2 or a 64mb or memory Sparc10 with SunOS or a Solaris 7 Ultra. (Who prefers an 11/780 or better Vax running Vax/VMS (what's this Open/VMS #$%^& marketing @#$%^ anyway...) (I can't afford an Alpha yet...) BTW -- I thought an 8600 was closer to 3.5 mips and an 8650 about 6 mips... I also remember getting dhrystones in that area on my old 386/25. I would NOT advocate replacing an 8650 with a 386/33 or 486 box for much if you were running a Microsoft OS or a commercial Unix varient. I would consider using a Vax 11/780 as my single user desktop if you (generic management you) would be willing to support the power and air conditioning. I'd volunteer my maintenance time and do the hardware. (of course, the DEC diags for this are $15,000 per copy and the third party diags for the machine suck.) However, equal quality diags for the PC don't exist. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun Oct 24 20:42:37 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:06 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <199910242309.TAA26543@world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Oct 24, 1999 7: 9:33 pm" Message-ID: <199910250142.VAA20059@pechter.dyndns.org> > Allison I seem to remember real world Unibus was mentioned to be up to 1-1.2 Megabytes/second so your number may be right. I often wondered if it really got that high in real life... DZ11 interrupts, Ethernet on Deuna's... UDA50's and Massbuss adapters really began to show the problems in the Unibus by the '80's. You could outrun the RH11 and Unibus pretty easily with stuff like the RP07's and RM05's... The Unibus was a great idea, but they needed a Massbus->Memory interconnect that didn't use the Unibus for stuff like the 11/44 to perform with reasonable storage loads... The IBM boys knew that to make machines handle load you need big busses that moved data in good size chunks. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 24 19:45:34 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:06 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? - PCBs at home In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19991024193338.00982200@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Oct 24, 99 07:33:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1691 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991025/7dd780a2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 24 20:41:05 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:06 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? - PCBs at home In-Reply-To: <000801bf1e81$b84976e0$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> from "Richard Erlacher" at Oct 24, 99 06:41:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1170 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991025/ac50c272/attachment.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Oct 24 21:00:01 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:06 2005 Subject: Last chance before they hit SCRAP... Message-ID: <991024220001.236009c1@trailing-edge.com> >I've got a fair number of ST41201J SMD drives (1.2G) in System Industries >carriers in Milpitas (near San Jose); if anyone needs them we can work out >a trade. > >I've recently learned that there are different flavors of SMD. The >high-transfer rate drives use the SMD-E interface, which uses differential >ECL transceivers for the data and clock on the radial interface, vs. >TTL-compatible stuff on the earlier drives. I thought all SMD interface drives used differential ECL signals on the radial cables... >I'm hoping to use some of these on a system that was originally set up for >Fujitsu Eagles (M2351), but I haven't found any online reference that >indicates the data transfer rate or geometry of the Eagle, or whether >it uses SMD-E. A very good source of SMD drive geometry information is the "Sun format.dat" file that's been floating around the net for the past 15 years or so. The Eagle is 842 Cylinders, 20 Heads, and (assuming 512 bytes/sector) 49 or 50 sectors per track. The data rate is 15 MHz. Is this what you needed to know? I have manuals for most of the Fuji drives. Incidentally, the Fuji Eagle manual is titled "M2351A/AF Mini-Disk Drive Customer Engineering Manual". Most weenies today wouldn't call a drive that weighed over 100 pounds "Mini", but they don't know what they're talking about! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 24 20:45:41 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:06 2005 Subject: PDP-8/e PSU questions In-Reply-To: <19991025013752.11347.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 24, 99 06:37:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1037 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991025/f191108f/attachment.ksh From mac at Wireless.Com Sun Oct 24 21:35:54 1999 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:06 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >My main belief is that nobody is going to keep a VAX anything running with > >dozens of simultaneous users. So, if a VAX is to be something close > >to "useful" today, it'll be in single-user mode. In that case, Integer > >performance is very important. > > Ah, to bad you don't know what you're talking about here. I know of a > certain major corporation that just got done putting a whole pile of new > VAX 7000's in a brand new computer room. Said corporation has numerous > computer rooms with VAXen, and these systems are heavily used. Maybe I should have said "Nobody -sane- is going to....". How fast is a Vax 7000? http://www.digital.com/timeline/1992-3.htm describes a little about the VAX 7000, but no hard speed data. Incidentally, the vax 7000 was introduced 7 years ago; have there been any upgrades since then? The paradigm today is client on Ethernet, server cluster in the back room. Scalable, cheap, reliable. One Big Box In The Back Room is what people did in the 40s, 50s and 60s..... >>Hey, I'm not saying the original IBM PC was going to outperform the VAX 6500; >>but a modern PC will crush any VAX in any application, IMHO, with equivalent >>h/w attached. > > Speed isn't everything. You're right, speed isn't everything; it's the -only- thing! ;-) > I'd rather have a nice VAX than a modern PC, > you've also got to consider the fact that PC's aren't the most reliable of > platforms, and most run an OS that totally sucks! My PCs are damn reliable; are you buying junk? They are -waaaaaaaaaaay- more reliable than the VAX-11/780s, VAX-11/750s and VAX-11/785s that I have used in the past. (I run BSDI unix on a Pentium Pro, as well as NetBSD on other machines, and they have -never- crashed.) > Zane -mac From roblwill at usaor.net Mon Oct 25 00:51:53 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:06 2005 Subject: IBM 5155 Anyone have one? Message-ID: <01bf1ead$0a478ce0$68110c18@c614529-b.baden1.pa.home.com> Hi! Does anyone have an IBM 5155 (I think I got the model right) Portable PC that they would want to sell/trade something for? I'm trying to narrow my collection down to portables, since I sorta have limited space, and I may be getting rid of (probably on the list) some of my desktops. -Jason (general-one@home.com) From mac at Wireless.Com Sun Oct 24 21:56:12 1999 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:06 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <19991025000515Z433872-8503+215@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> Message-ID: >>Mark Green wrote: >> >>>Mike Cheponis wrote: >>>>Looks like the 6500 was about 13 VAX-11/780 MIPS. That would make it about >>>>2x to 3x slower than a 486DX2/66. >>>Integer performance is a very misleading >>>measure of performance when you are talking about system performance. >>My main belief is that nobody is going to keep a VAX anything running with >>dozens of simultaneous users. So, if a VAX is to be something close >>to "useful" today, it'll be in single-user mode. In that case, Integer >>performance is very important. >You've got to be kidding!!! Most VAXes out there are running large >multiuser systems. The VAX has not been out of production for >very long, and there are still a considerable number of systems >that are running on them. If you meant it in terms of dozens of >users being too small, I might agree. Many of these systems are >running more like hundreds of users. That's fascinating. Take obsolete hardware and architecture (vax), and keep them running! I guess I will never cease to be amazed at the weird things people do. Heck, I heard the other day that people are -still- running 1401 emulation mode under a VM/360 simulator on their modern h/w! >>Now, perhaps if we were to port Apache to the VAX, and used that I/O bandwidth >>on multiple DS3s, well, that's great. >The problems is equivalent hardware. You can't configure a PC >like a VAX, they are two different types of machines. A PC >is tuned for a single user, while a VAX is tuned for many users. Amen! Thank you! I think all the flamage back and forth needs to accept this, and I think Chuck first brought it up. That's right! Remember, I was just making the observation that the integer performance of the vax 8650 is worse than a dx2-66. I think single-user; I run single-user machines. The future is single-user with vast network-accessed databases. >These are very different machine configurations, and even the latest >PC would have no hope of keeping up to a decade old VAX running >a large multiuser application. Again, with -equivalent hardware- it certainly would. >Many of the PC manufacturers >have tried to scale PCs to this level and they have all failed. >This is why companies like IBM, HP, SUN and SGI are still selling >big iron, and sales are increasing rapidly. There is a huge >demand for server style systems, and single bus systems like >the PC can't scale to the performance required. What you failed to mention is that sgi is -only- selling NT these days, having given up on Big Iron. Also, the market sizes for IBM, HP, and Sun's "big iron" exist specifically to be those back-room servers that can do lots of disk I/Os per second (the web, eh?). I fully agree that computer systems designed for specific purposes are going to do better for those applications than a PC. BUT, I would like the Vax Lover Crowd to acknowledge that they integer performance of their machine is pathetic. > Its not the speed >of the individual bus, but its the number of busses. That's of course bull..... >The more busses, the more parallelism and the less waiting. -IF- the speed of the busses is high enough! >One >fast bus works well until you want to do multiple things, and >then it quickly becomes a bottleneck. Excuse me? Could you please back up this assertion with data? After all, at -some- point, all these busses have to get their data into/out of the CPU, right? And -that- is a "bottleneck" for sure... (Sure, you can have channel-to-channel I/O, but most aps are not just shuffling bits.) >>And, if you don't like Dhyrstone 2.1, then what benchmarks -can- we use? > >Each application area has their own set of benchmarks that >reflect their use of the machine. For example, a lot of the >supercomputer centers use fluid dynamics programs to evaluate >machines, since that's what takes up most of their cycles. We >take a two pronged approach to graphics performance. One is >to run some standard visualization and measure frame rate (this >ties us to the real world). Second is to run a set of programs >that measure individual aspects of the graphics pipeline, >such as transformation rate (as a function of vertices/polygon), >fill rates, lighting rates, texture rates, along with >where the pipeline blocks. This give us a pretty good picture >of the display, and how we will need to generate code to >drive it. Hey, this is very helpful. It makes much sense using a fluid dynamics program for supercomputers, as well as frames/second for a given visualization. And then the specific architectural features, such as the fill rates or polygons/sec, etc. The thing that bothers me, tho, is that it's difficult to use such programs unless the h/w is relatively similar. That's the beauty (and downfall?) of benchmarks like Dhrystone 2.1 - it can be run on most any piece of computer h/w every designed. >You've been reading too much sales literature. AGP has no >effect on a wide range of graphics applications. The only >place its a big win is texture mapping. In all other cases >the geometry still has to go through the CPU, which is FSB >limited, no matter how fast the memory is. Sure, but AGP is better than -no- AGP, and it does show that there are other busses available on a PC, yes? (Which was my original point.) >Its interesting to note that SGI fell into the same trap >that you did when they design their graphics PCs. They >put all sort of bandwidth in that thing, and then found >that the competition blew them away, one of the main >reasons SGI is in so much trouble now! They didn't >realize that the PC is FSB limited, and all the bandwidth >they had built in couldn't be used. I know this. But, frankly, -every- bus is limited! Knowing how to "tune" a system's architecture is partially what makes computers fascinating to me. It's also one of the main reasons I enjoy looking at and studying these old behemoths, even vaxes? ;-) -mac From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Oct 24 22:32:23 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:06 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: References: <19991025000515Z433872-8503+215@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> Message-ID: >> Ah, to bad you don't know what you're talking about here. I know of a >> certain major corporation that just got done putting a whole pile of new >> VAX 7000's in a brand new computer room. Said corporation has numerous >> computer rooms with VAXen, and these systems are heavily used. > >Maybe I should have said "Nobody -sane- is going to....". Let's put it this way, said corporations livelyhood DEPENDS on those systems and thier stability and reliability. >> Speed isn't everything. > >You're right, speed isn't everything; it's the -only- thing! ;-) Wrong, what counts is that the computer can do the job that it needs to. That is why you'll still find systems such as the PDP-8 and PDP-11 still in service. That is also why most people don't need anything more than a 68k-based Macintosh. >> I'd rather have a nice VAX than a modern PC, >> you've also got to consider the fact that PC's aren't the most reliable of >> platforms, and most run an OS that totally sucks! > >My PCs are damn reliable; are you buying junk? They are -waaaaaaaaaaay- more >reliable than the VAX-11/780s, VAX-11/750s and VAX-11/785s that I have >used in the past. (I run BSDI unix on a Pentium Pro, as well as NetBSD on >other machines, and they have -never- crashed.) Let's see something like 90% of PC's run some varity of Microsoft Windows. That means that about 90% of PC's are unreliable. So yours don't crash? What about hardware? A VMS cluster is a lot more capable of handling dead hardware than any PC running UNIX. I'll admit, with good hardware, and running UNIX, or OS/2 you've got a pretty reliable system. I think we'll see that reliability increase as time passes and you start to see real clustering on PC's. If you want TRUE reliability though you'll either go with one of Compaq's OpenVMS or Tandem systems >That's fascinating. Take obsolete hardware and architecture (vax), and >keep them running! I guess I will never cease to be amazed at the weird >things people do. Heck, I heard the other day that people are -still- >running 1401 emulation mode under a VM/360 simulator on their modern h/w! Let's see, on the VMS side, there is the question of reliability, you can't get much more reliable than a VMS Cluster. But VMS runs on Alpha's you say, well, not all apps have been ported. Then there is the question of which costs less, keeping these systems running, or converting to something new (this is both a hardware and software quesiton). If the current system does everything you need, why change? In some cases it makes sense to run old apps in an emulator on new hardware. >Remember, I was just making the observation that the integer performance of >the vax 8650 is worse than a dx2-66. I think single-user; I run single-user >machines. The future is single-user with vast network-accessed databases. Well, that's one point of view. However, it's starting to look like the trend is using those single-user systems as nothing more than intelligent terminals (which is basically what you're saying). >What you failed to mention is that sgi is -only- selling NT these days, >having given up on Big Iron. And you've failed to stay current. >BUT, I would like the Vax Lover Crowd to acknowledge that they integer >performance of their machine is pathetic. Yes, but the 64-bit 21264 Alpha can beat any PC out there! If you need speed you switch to Alpha, if you don't there is no reason not to stick with VAX. BTW, I've got a letter I found today while cleaning up from Compaq commiting to support the VAX hardware for a MINIMUM of 10 more years through 2010. It's not like this is unsupported hardware. Where the PC has it made is cost. For a few hundred dollars you can build a pretty good, and fairly fast system, and load UNIX on it. It's hard to beat that. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From chris at mainecoon.com Sun Oct 24 22:33:47 1999 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:06 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 References: Message-ID: <3813CF9B.B3B3FB2B@mainecoon.com> Mike Cheponis wrote: [stuff deleted] > The paradigm today is client on Ethernet, server cluster in the back room. > Scalable, cheap, reliable. > > One Big Box In The Back Room is what people did in the 40s, 50s and 60s..... And 90s. Data is expensive to ship and dramatically more expensive to keep coherent when distributed, even across short distances and gigabit networks. If this were not the case we wouldn't see Enterprise class machines being pushed out the door, and I wouldn't be watching a client who accepted the notion of "cheap" computing clusters without stopping to think throw more and more hardware at their back-end -- what was originally a single US170E became a 2300, then a 2400, then a pair of 2400s and now a four-processor E450 and a 2400 -- all to support a handful of 500MHz NT clients who are doing all the computations. That right, no integer math, no floating point, not nuthin' on the backend except moving data around. Draw a typical "modern" distributed computing architecture on the wall, then do the same for a 360 TSO system using 3270s. Damn if the pictures don't look the same save for the labels on the boxes. The 3270 has been replaced by a thin client, and the Big Blue box has been replaced by a big-ass Enterprise 10K from Sun. Yeah, the communications links are faster, but with more processing done on the front end I generally have to ship more data more often and go through parlor tricks to keep the stuff in synch -- not an issue for passive web browsers, but then the browser is a lousy model for many applications. The bottom line here is the speed of light; at some point I need to do more things in parallel to increase my throughput. A typical PC with a single bus simply can't push as much data as a large machine with a bunch of independent dedicated buses managed by their own controllers. Of course, none of this has anything to do with the 486 integer ALU vs. a Vax 8mumble ALU -- it has to do with the overall architecture of the machine. Given a similar bus and channel controller structure one could get the same throughput out of an x86 as a Vax, MV or 309x class machine. > >>Hey, I'm not saying the original IBM PC was going to outperform the VAX 6500; > >>but a modern PC will crush any VAX in any application, IMHO, with equivalent > >>h/w attached. The problem is that I can't attach equivalent hardware. Given the choice between deploying Solaris on an x86 or a sparc I'll take the x86 90+% of the time -- on the desktop the price-performance is tough to beat. However, there's simply no way that I can do it for anything that requires shuffling around large amounts of data. I can't get a PC that has enough aggregate bandwidth; an Enterprise machine will smoke the PC's doors off despite the fact that the PC is clocking hundreds of Mhz faster (aside: does anyone know offhand what the typical CPI is for the Ppro, PII and PIII?). Again, that's not a commentary on the processor, it's a commentary on the overall architecture. A Sequent, for example, has a far better architecture than any PC I can buy. > > > > Speed isn't everything. > > You're right, speed isn't everything; it's the -only- thing! ;-) That's correct. Unfortunatly, CPU speed is kinda meaningless in and of itself, save for some very degenerate applications (i.e., no I/O, no external memory references, everything resolves in on-board cache, etc.) > > I'd rather have a nice VAX than a modern PC, > > you've also got to consider the fact that PC's aren't the most reliable of > > platforms, and most run an OS that totally sucks! > > My PCs are damn reliable; are you buying junk? They are -waaaaaaaaaaay- more > reliable than the VAX-11/780s, VAX-11/750s and VAX-11/785s that I have > used in the past. (I run BSDI unix on a Pentium Pro, as well as NetBSD on > other machines, and they have -never- crashed.) I run Solaris on Ppros, PIIs and Sparcs, Linux on PIIIs and OpenBSD on Sparcs. The PCs are less reliable than the sparcs, but even then they're far more reliable than anything from the late 70's. If we look at contemporaries, my fuzzy recollection is that the 785 I was using was generally a hell of a lot more reliable than the PC/AT I was using at the time -- and the 785 cranked a hell of a lot harder than the AT did. Cheers, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 24 22:34:56 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:06 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 References: Message-ID: <99102423454201.25133@vault.neurotica.com> I really hate to become a part of this stupid flame war, but there are some real misconceptions here that I really feel the need to try to address. Nothing personal; smarter people than I have been known to fall for PC-itis. On Sun, 24 Oct 1999, Mike Cheponis wrote: >> >My main belief is that nobody is going to keep a VAX anything running with >> >dozens of simultaneous users. So, if a VAX is to be something close >> >to "useful" today, it'll be in single-user mode. In that case, Integer >> >performance is very important. >> >> Ah, to bad you don't know what you're talking about here. I know of a >> certain major corporation that just got done putting a whole pile of new >> VAX 7000's in a brand new computer room. Said corporation has numerous >> computer rooms with VAXen, and these systems are heavily used. > >Maybe I should have said "Nobody -sane- is going to....". I'm generally considered to be rather sane, and if I'm betting my reputation and my company's livelihood on it, I sure would. >The paradigm today is client on Ethernet, server cluster in the back room. >Scalable, cheap, reliable. You mean "the paradigm that vendors want to sell today is..." Keep in mind that there are computer rooms other than yours, with different requirements than yours, doing different things than yours. It's easy to put blinders on and think "what works for me ought to work for anybody" (hell, I do it all the time myself!)...but keep in mind that people do *different* things with computers. >One Big Box In The Back Room is what people did in the 40s, 50s and 60s..... And 70s and 80s and 90s. It's not going away anytime soon. Just because it was also done a long time ago doesn't mean it sucks now. "Wow, when are you going to get rid of that automobile? People used those way back in the 30's, man! Throw that old shit away!" >>>Hey, I'm not saying the original IBM PC was going to outperform the VAX 6500; >>>but a modern PC will crush any VAX in any application, IMHO, with equivalent >>>h/w attached. >> >> Speed isn't everything. > >You're right, speed isn't everything; it's the -only- thing! ;-) I think the point was "integer cpu speed" isn't everything...which is about all a "modern" PC has. There's more to computer architecture than clock speed. A 500MHz PentiumIII has better raw integer performance than a VAX9000...but a VAX9000 can easily handle upwards of a thousand interactive users without breaking a sweat. The pentium will fold up with a hundred at most. Too many smart people have fallen for Intel's marketing and PC hype. Don't be one of them. Real computers are still available...you just can't buy them in malls. -Dave McGuire From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 24 22:46:03 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:06 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 References: Message-ID: <99102423555902.25133@vault.neurotica.com> Jeeeezus. On Sun, 24 Oct 1999, Mike Cheponis wrote: >That's fascinating. Take obsolete hardware and architecture (vax), and >keep them running! I guess I will never cease to be amazed at the weird Obsolete hardware? Are you aware that they're still being made? Systems based on CURRENT technology, using CURRENT production techniques. Keep in mind that the VAX isn't a computer...it's an architecture. There are old implementations and new ones. Now, you say "obsolete architecture"...Do you honestly believe that PCs are "new" computers? That architecture was designed in 1980. And it wasn't designed to be scalable. The VAX was designed only a couple of years earlier, and it *was* designed to be scalable. That's why they're still around, still in demand, still working hard in the face of constant marketing lies by Intel and Microsoft. >What you failed to mention is that sgi is -only- selling NT these days, Wrong. >having given up on Big Iron. Also, the market sizes for IBM, HP, and Sun's >"big iron" exist specifically to be those back-room servers that can do lots >of disk I/Os per second (the web, eh?). ...the back-room servers that you insist are obsolete, you mean? >BUT, I would like the Vax Lover Crowd to acknowledge that they integer >performance of their machine is pathetic. Old vaxen are slow. New vaxen are fast. C'mon, man. You're comparing apples and oranges. Compare a current vax to a current PC. I sure would like the PC lover crowd to admit to themselves that the PeeCee isn't the end-all-be-all of computing. It's a cheap, slow, nonscalable, poorly designed architecture that some little ass-kisser fresh out of college came up with to impress his boss at IBM. GET OVER IT. -Dave McGuire From spc at armigeron.com Sun Oct 24 22:49:32 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:06 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: from "Mike Cheponis" at Oct 24, 99 07:35:54 pm Message-ID: <199910250349.XAA23173@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1596 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991024/bd032b5d/attachment.ksh From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 24 22:56:17 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:06 2005 Subject: Last chance before they hit SCRAP... References: <991024220001.236009c1@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <99102423581703.25133@vault.neurotica.com> On Sun, 24 Oct 1999, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: >Incidentally, the Fuji Eagle manual is titled "M2351A/AF Mini-Disk >Drive Customer Engineering Manual". Most weenies today wouldn't call >a drive that weighed over 100 pounds "Mini", but they don't know what >they're talking about! I was at a hamfest this morning. I picked up an IBM 120mb 3.5" full-height SCSI drive in some guy's $1 bin. He said "man, isn't that a huge old honker?!" I explained to him slowly and carefully that I could walk because of moving an RA80 last night. After explaining in detail what an RA80 is, the guy never made another comment as to the "huge" size of this 3.5" drive in his $1 bin. I was amused. :-) -Dave McGuire From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 24 23:06:56 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:06 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 References: <199910250142.VAA20059@pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <99102500081405.25133@vault.neurotica.com> On Sun, 24 Oct 1999, Bill Pechter wrote: >> > > > > Allison > >I seem to remember real world Unibus was mentioned to be up to >1-1.2 Megabytes/second so your number may be right. I often wondered >if it really got that high in real life... Unibus runs to 7mb/sec...slow, yes, but not bad for the time it was designed and [very widely] used, IMO. I rather like Unibus. -Dave McGuire From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 24 23:08:34 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:06 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 References: <19991025000515Z433872-8503+215@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <99102500112806.25133@vault.neurotica.com> On Sun, 24 Oct 1999, Mark Green wrote: >You've got to be kidding!!! Most VAXes out there are running large >multiuser systems. The VAX has not been out of production for >very long, and there are still a considerable number of systems The VAX is still in production, man. -Dave McGuire From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun Oct 24 23:17:04 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:06 2005 Subject: Gone! (was - sale/trade: OSI Challenger 1P) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19991024142119.067210a0@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19991024211704.0678675c@agora.rdrop.com> The unit has been spoken for. Thanks to everyone who expressed interest. -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Oct 24 23:10:28 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:06 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 Message-ID: <199910250410.AAA05147@world.std.com> <> VAX 7000's in a brand new computer room. Said corporation has numerous <> computer rooms with VAXen, and these systems are heavily used. < The problems is equivalent hardware. You can't configure a PC <>like a VAX, they are two different types of machines. A PC <>is tuned for a single user, while a VAX is tuned for many users. < Its not the speed <>of the individual bus, but its the number of busses. < The more busses, the more parallelism and the less waiting. < <-IF- the speed of the busses is high enough! They have to be very very fast and the system on the bus very very fast and then you still have bus bandwidth conflicts. Therein lies the truth, if someone delivers a PC that has multiple independent PCI buses that can run in parallel will you start claiming that is better? <>One <>fast bus works well until you want to do multiple things, and <>then it quickly becomes a bottleneck. < References: <3.0.6.16.19991023223236.21bf2c24@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19991024211327.219f4294@earthlink.net> Hi Tony and all, At 07:26 PM 10/24/99 +0100, Tony wrote: >> >And yes, VF displays are almost always multiplexed The multi-digit ones >> >always are, but there were some single-digit VF display tubes. Never seen >> >the latter in use, though. >> >> I have a calculator board with 12 single digit VF 7 segment displays. By >> looking at the transistor placement, they appear to be multiplexed. Have >> not traced the circuit to figure out how they biased each display (all the >> filaments are in series). It also has a few early NEC ic's such as uPD10, > >Well, if you think about it the 'filaments' for each digit of a >multi-digit VF display are in series, in that there there's normally a long >filament that runs from one end of the tube to the other, across the >front of all the digits. > >Normally, the filament is run off an AC supply centre-tapped to ground >(or to a bias voltage) so that the average DC voltage on each point of >the filamnet is constant (either 0 or said bias voltage). The result is >that the digits seem to be all about the same brightness. Yes, but normally the AC is 2 volts or so. I guess the AC voltage for this board is higher, which might be harder to ignore circuit wise. > >The AC supply comes from a winding on the little transformer in the DC-DC >converter used to get the HV (about 30V-ish) for the anodes of the >display. I have no power supply, but would guess its the vintage that all voltages come from windings on the mains power supply, no converter. > >One thing... I have a portable calcuator where the display is individual >7-segment neon displays for each digit (I am pretty sure they're >multiplexed BTW). These display tubes look a lot like the single-digit VF >ones, but of course light up orange (VF displays are normally >blue-green). Do you have a blue-green display with an orange '-' sign, or >what? Yes, I think so, though I haven't powered it yet. (Quess at least 4 voltages are required: filament, logic, VF, and neon) There is also a neon '-' sign on the right hand of the display as well. The 2 neon lamps could be argon, but these are much less common. -Dave From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Sun Oct 24 23:34:20 1999 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:06 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <99102500112806.25133@vault.neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Oct 25, 1999 00:08:34 am" Message-ID: <19991025043433Z434043-8505+264@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > On Sun, 24 Oct 1999, Mark Green wrote: > >You've got to be kidding!!! Most VAXes out there are running large > >multiuser systems. The VAX has not been out of production for > >very long, and there are still a considerable number of systems > > The VAX is still in production, man. > > -Dave McGuire Sorry, with all the changes going on at Compaq, I thought they would have killed it off by now (after all it was a DEC machine) :-). -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From mac at Wireless.Com Sun Oct 24 23:35:50 1999 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:06 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <199910242242.SAA14514@world.std.com> Message-ID: > Your confusing the price of bricks with the weight of concrete. > The MIPS metric is not accurate, I don't know if there is one. What I'm saying is: If you run the Dhrystone 2.1 benchmark on a dx2/66 and also on a VAX 6500, it'll run 2 to 3 times faster on the dx2/66. That's -all- I'm saying! >>To me, that means "13 MIPS". 13 MIPS is about 2 to almost 3 times slower >>than a 486dx2/66. > Until you fill memory. then the contest reverses. The 486s of the time > were doing good at maybe 5meg bytes/sec and thats SLOW. The real test > then and now is what the system does with relational database of say > 100mb is size. It's a different test. I didn't say anything about relational database performance. > < System OS CPU (MHz) V1.1 V2.1 > < ---------------------- ------------ ----------- ----- ------ ------ > < VAX 8650 4.3 BSD ----------- 18 6.3 6.2 > < cc -non_shared -DUNIX -O5 -ifo > > It's a non compare as an 8650 is not a 6000 anything. there are differnet > memory bandwidths and IO bandwiths in effect and the slowest is much faster > in action than an 8650. > >>And, back of the envelope, the 6500 was 2x the 8650. I was trying to get a handle on -real numbers- for the 8650, based on numbers that are known. There are no performance numbers published for the 6500 that I am aware of. > > Well, first of I'm not your average retrorevionist PC collector. I worked > for DEC for 10 years (83-93) spanning the era in quesiton. Nor am I, I guess (is there an "average" retro geek?). I worked at DEC '73-'75 in Marlboro. (We built 10s and 20s there). I had Ken Olsen over for dinner and asked him about what it would take to get the PDP-11 out there competing with these newfangled microprocessors (y'all know what Ken thought about micros...). And I still have a copy of a memo I sent to Gordon Bell, suggesting that we put the PDP-10 on a board and sell -that- into the home market (and Gordon said: do it! and it was done, but several years later...). This was in 1975, mind you... > Oh, and I've used a VS3100 recently as a server at work for test purposes > and the 3100/m10E clobbered the P166mmx/scsi box running NT. Is this VS3100 actually an Alpha? If so, I have always realized the superiority of the Alpha. No contest. > Yes, I know and have done. I've tried to run a p133 as a unix host (not > a web server) as a timeshare client and it doesn't load as well as the > VS2000 I have. The 8080 timeshare FYI had terrible latency! Consider the 8080 timeshare (like the pdp-8 timeshare): It's like the dancing elephant - it's amazing enough that the elephant dances! > CI, cluster innerconnect was was fast when PCs were running ISA-16. If > memory serves it was a 24-32mbytes/s rate. PCI-66 is now, and slow Alphas > use it. The difference is you could have multiple CI busses and sorry but, > only one PCI. Indeed, CI is 8 times faster than ISA-16. CI (at 32 MB/sec) is 256 Megabits/sec. Therefore, you can hang 16 CI bus adaptors onto a 66 MHz / 64-bit PCI bus. > But then when VAX was running CI what was the PC running? OK ISA-1 at > some 8meg bytes/sec and memory interfaces were typically 70ns 32bit wide > non-interleaved with caches. SCSI was maybe 10mb/s. the less than > popular MCA bussed IBM hardware were much fast than the ISA and VL bussed > counterparts. Wait! I'm -not- saying that the PC world when the VAX 8650 was introduced was equivalent. ALL I'M TRYING TO DO is to put some perspective on CPU performance of this old obsolete VAX iron. I'm not even saying that the people at DEC were stupid, lacked foresight, or anything like that at all! I'm -merely- trying to understand the single-user performance of that old iron in light of new iron (that I can actually benchmark). > The point being your trying to save your arguement with _now_ hardware > against _then_ hardware. PCs with then hardware were the industry joke > for uptime, reliablility and performance, the AS400s, VAX, Prime, and > others were the systems choice for getting work done on the larger scale. Again, I dunno what kind of PCs you people were using, but I have not had PC reliability problems. Maybe I'm unusual in that respect. > PCs in many ways are still behind the "big iron" of the early 90s, as > they still lack a really good OS (linux, freebsd are contenders though). > The hardware is not mature, they keep creating new standards that barely > get debugged before they are pass`e. It's always amazing to see older > systems bumping along getting real work done, usually while the PC user > is rebooting for the third time today. > > > Allison Again, I don't reboot my non-Windows PCs at all. But for those old systems? Sooner or later, the maintenance costs will become too high, and the Itaniums will replace 'em, eh? -mac From spc at armigeron.com Sun Oct 24 23:28:59 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:06 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: from "spc" at Oct 24, 99 11:49:32 pm Message-ID: <199910250428.AAA23922@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 634 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991025/51cd92a7/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Sun Oct 24 23:48:29 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:06 2005 Subject: Reliable PCBs at home References: <000801bf1e81$b84976e0$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Message-ID: <3813E11D.B493F4FF@rain.org> Richard Erlacher wrote: > > First of all, I haven't read ALL of this thread, but I recall Tony or > someone else replying to him saying something about the method for making > plated through two-sided boards in your home. I've never met anyone aside > from professionals with scads of equipment who could do that, but it seems > to me that the method which was described to me was to start with bare > fiberglass/epoxy panels, drill them, then apply a slightly conductive > coating in liquid form which had to be forcibly dried (perhaps baked) before > the resist was applied. The boards were then exposed, the films applied to > registration targets on each side, to a powerful UV light, for which some > prefer to use direct sunlight, and the boards subsequently developed, then > etched. > > Has any of you ever encountered an approach to this that could be managed in > the home environment with equipment costing, nominally, less that a k-buck > or two and achieving nominally 10-mil traces with 8-10 mil separation or > anything close to that? How about a dry-film solder mask? First of all, there are service shops that will take a drilled board, do the PTH process, and electroplate the desired amount of copper onto the board. The normal process for making PTH boards is as follows. The copper clad laminate is cut to panel size and drilled. The drilling is usually done on an NC machine. The NC program can either be supplied as a drill file, or it can be hand programmed. Hand programming involves taping the artwork (or more likely a copy) to a programing table, marking the rout to follow for each drill size, and then just the grunt work of centering each hole in a scope, and pushing a foot pedal that records that location. There are a number of different processes for doing PTH, but the most common is to take the drilled panel(s), run it through an electroless copper line (cleaning, catalist, accellerator, electroless copper) that will put about 30 millionths of copper on the board, and electroplate about .3 mill or so of copper on the bare panel (enough so the rest of the process doesn't create problems with the plated through holes.) The next step is imaging and how that is done depends on the required quantity and line density. What I used (prototype/short run shop) was use dry film. The board is cleaned and laminated with a photosensitive film. The artwork was transferred to diazo film, and the diazo films were used to actually image the board. At this point, the board is developed and the copper you see is what you want. The rest of the process is fairly short. Electroplate copper up to the desired thickness, electroplate tin-lead, strip the dry film, etch, gold plate the fingers if necessary, fuse the tin-lead into solder, route, clean, and ship. The etching is usually done by machine using an alkaline etching solution. Doing the process at home can be done with a minimum of equipment if service shops are used for parts of the process. A small copper plating tank, tin-lead tank, and peroxide-sulfuric etchant along with fusing oil and flux can be set up at home for probably a couple hundred dollars. To set up a fairly complete shop including drilling and imaging would probably cost between 2K and 3K. This would provide the capabilities of producing reasonably high quality boards. Oh, did I forget to mention getting the experience to know how to do it :)? BTW, I think you just meant dry film above. Dry Film Solder mask does require UV curing and is probably impractical for home use. However silk screening the soldermask and legend is easy and inexpensive to do at home. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Oct 25 00:03:45 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:06 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <19991025043433Z434043-8505+264@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> References: <99102500112806.25133@vault.neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Oct 25, 1999 00:08:34 am" Message-ID: >> On Sun, 24 Oct 1999, Mark Green wrote: >> >You've got to be kidding!!! Most VAXes out there are running large >> >multiuser systems. The VAX has not been out of production for >> >very long, and there are still a considerable number of systems >> >> The VAX is still in production, man. >> >> -Dave McGuire > >Sorry, with all the changes going on at Compaq, I thought they would >have killed it off by now (after all it was a DEC machine) :-). > >-- >Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca I think production is supposed to stop this year. I gather it's stopping more from a lack of parts than a lack of demand. I believe there is only two or three models still being produced. On the other hand Compaq has commited to support the platform for at least another 10 years. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mac at Wireless.Com Mon Oct 25 00:15:17 1999 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:06 2005 Subject: Benchmark Wars (was Re: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530) In-Reply-To: <199910250105.VAA17189@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Oct 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: > <> If you're doing ray tracing, get a fast PC. > <> If you're timesharing dozens of people, a VAX is not a bad choice. > < > Then what would work better for fast ray tracing. and why does my ISP have > a 24x250mhz SGI and not 24 PIII/xeons? I didn't say anything at all about ray tracing, did I? > > <> It's all about "balance" and truly good designers can get good balance fo > <> the task at hand without being stuck in some rut. > > Big time Chuck. I like the mix, I like to mix. > Thinking of the 11/55 story. 1970, KA10 (PDP10) 300 users (mostly TTYs) > in schools never using more than maybe 70%. Plus batch processes for version > clerical tasks related to the operation of the BOCES LIRYCS timeshare > system. Now That was BIG iron (12 6ft racks!). But if I took all the PCs > needed to provide the same interconnected services and stacked them up > they would easily outweigh the KA10 and much more power, try 300x200W > that is 60KW, the Ka10 was under 10KW and like near 6KW. > < > > yes, but the IO is polled or interrupt and that adds 500% overhead. Only if the interface h/w is losing. Multiport async boards almost always have on-board micros that obviates the need for polling. Interrupts transfer a big batch of data. > > It's not 184320, thats how many are transfered, not the process loading. Yes.... > The system might require that to be dispersed across 12 buffers and there > are overheads associeted with that. Yes. in pdp-11 lingo: mov (r0)+,(r1)+ ... Not ---too--- much overhead. ;-) But, sure in the general case, when you are actually doing something, it's going to be tough to use the ISA bus only. > The actual performance is not impressive. FYI: vax using the same approach > would really be poor too. This kind of IO was typical of PDP-11s > and they did it very well. The big iron solution is hardware and non > competeing busses to unload the cpu from the IO task and not burden the > memory with the slow IO cycles. Therein is part of the difference. > Old iron treated the cpu as a valuable resource and were designed with the > idea that cpu cycles were expensive. Very well put! > <(Incidentally, I am -not- advocating ISA as some sort of "wunderbus"; on th > > Yes it's perfomance is par with mid range(ca 1977) unibus and Qbus of 10 > years before. By 1981 DEC had decided that those busses were ok for their > use but they needed faster buses. FYI BI bus was a 64bit bus (minimum > access was a 8byte chunk) and in use about 8 years before PCI was conceived > (or VESA, VL). the big iorn was always trying to feed the data rate habit > and usually long before PCs. Again, wonderful summary. > < contrary, I remain amazed that it has taken the PC industry as long as it > < has to recognize the importance of I/O speed. 64-bit 66 MHz PCI and 2x AG > < are steps in the right direction... Yes, the microcomputer industry seem > < hellbent on re-discovering what the mainframe and mini guys knew 20 or 40 > < years ago...) > > Yes. thats the whole point. Exactly. > > Allison -mac From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Mon Oct 25 00:19:12 1999 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:06 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: from Mike Cheponis at "Oct 24, 1999 07:56:12 pm" Message-ID: <19991025051915Z433656-8507+271@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > >>Mark Green wrote: > >> > >>>Mike Cheponis wrote: > >>>>Looks like the 6500 was about 13 VAX-11/780 MIPS. That would make it about > >>>>2x to 3x slower than a 486DX2/66. > >You've got to be kidding!!! Most VAXes out there are running large > >multiuser systems. The VAX has not been out of production for > >very long, and there are still a considerable number of systems > >that are running on them. If you meant it in terms of dozens of > >users being too small, I might agree. Many of these systems are > >running more like hundreds of users. > > That's fascinating. Take obsolete hardware and architecture (vax), and > keep them running! I guess I will never cease to be amazed at the weird > things people do. Heck, I heard the other day that people are -still- > running 1401 emulation mode under a VM/360 simulator on their modern h/w! Here's the clue to understanding it: software and business logic. Companies (and other organizations) have software systems that run on older machines, they run quite well and do the job. Many of these companies see no reason to rewrite this software, sometimes at considerable cost, so it will run on the latest hardware. There is just no business case that can be made for this (in terms of profit and loss). These companies aren't full of techies that want to play with the latest hardware, they just want to get on with business. Make perfect sense to me. > > >>Now, perhaps if we were to port Apache to the VAX, and used that I/O bandwidth > >>on multiple DS3s, well, that's great. > > >The problems is equivalent hardware. You can't configure a PC > >like a VAX, they are two different types of machines. A PC > >is tuned for a single user, while a VAX is tuned for many users. > > Amen! Thank you! > > I think all the flamage back and forth needs to accept this, and I think > Chuck first brought it up. That's right! > > Remember, I was just making the observation that the integer performance of > the vax 8650 is worse than a dx2-66. I think single-user; I run single-user > machines. The future is single-user with vast network-accessed databases. I do believe at one point you stated that a dx2-66 could beat a VAX 8650 on any application (I don't think these are your exact words, something like crushing one). This is what people are reacting to, I don't think anyone is arguing about the difference in integer performance. > > >These are very different machine configurations, and even the latest > >PC would have no hope of keeping up to a decade old VAX running > >a large multiuser application. > > Again, with -equivalent hardware- it certainly would. > > >Many of the PC manufacturers > >have tried to scale PCs to this level and they have all failed. > >This is why companies like IBM, HP, SUN and SGI are still selling > >big iron, and sales are increasing rapidly. There is a huge > >demand for server style systems, and single bus systems like > >the PC can't scale to the performance required. > > What you failed to mention is that sgi is -only- selling NT these days, > having given up on Big Iron. Also, the market sizes for IBM, HP, and Sun's > "big iron" exist specifically to be those back-room servers that can do lots > of disk I/Os per second (the web, eh?). SGI is not selling any NT at this point, and its not clear that they ever sold very much. The NT experiment at SGI is over, and there are attempts to sell off what they can of it. SGI has gone back to building big servers, and Unix/Linux based ones. They realized that they weren't going to be able to scale an NT solution, and their strength was in scaling. > > I fully agree that computer systems designed for specific purposes are > going to do better for those applications than a PC. > > BUT, I would like the Vax Lover Crowd to acknowledge that they integer > performance of their machine is pathetic. No one in this group ever said it was good. As I said above the reaction was to your comment about PCs always being better than a VAX regardless of application. > > > Its not the speed > >of the individual bus, but its the number of busses. > > That's of course bull..... Then why does every large scale system maker build systems with multiple busses. Name one large scale system that has only one high speed bus. Surely they all aren't stupid, there must be some reason for doing this. > > >The more busses, the more parallelism and the less waiting. > > -IF- the speed of the busses is high enough! > > >One > >fast bus works well until you want to do multiple things, and > >then it quickly becomes a bottleneck. > > Excuse me? Could you please back up this assertion with data? After all, > at -some- point, all these busses have to get their data into/out of the CPU, > right? And -that- is a "bottleneck" for sure... (Sure, you can have > channel-to-channel I/O, but most aps are not just shuffling bits.) > Which CPU? If I have a high end system I will be running multiple CPUs. I agree about the problem of getting the data into the CPU, and as I pointed out this is the weak point of PC based systems. Everything goes into the CPU over a single bus, which has had problems keeping up with processor speed. Look at how many times Intel has changed the speed of the FSB over the past year or so. > > >>And, if you don't like Dhyrstone 2.1, then what benchmarks -can- we use? > > > >Each application area has their own set of benchmarks that > >reflect their use of the machine. For example, a lot of the > >supercomputer centers use fluid dynamics programs to evaluate > >machines, since that's what takes up most of their cycles. We > >take a two pronged approach to graphics performance. One is > >to run some standard visualization and measure frame rate (this > >ties us to the real world). Second is to run a set of programs > >that measure individual aspects of the graphics pipeline, > >such as transformation rate (as a function of vertices/polygon), > >fill rates, lighting rates, texture rates, along with > >where the pipeline blocks. This give us a pretty good picture > >of the display, and how we will need to generate code to > >drive it. > > Hey, this is very helpful. It makes much sense using a fluid dynamics > program for supercomputers, as well as frames/second for a given > visualization. And then the specific architectural features, such as the > fill rates or polygons/sec, etc. > > The thing that bothers me, tho, is that it's difficult to use such programs > unless the h/w is relatively similar. Our graphics benchmarks run on everything from low end PCs right up to high end workstations. We use lots of PCs, and we use lots of high end workstations, I need to know the cross over point in performance. If I can put an application on a PC I definitely will. I gain in price, upgradability and accessibility, but I can't do that with all applications (I wish I could, those large SGI machines are really expensive). > > That's the beauty (and downfall?) of benchmarks like Dhrystone 2.1 - it can > be run on most any piece of computer h/w every designed. Yes, and the results are typically meaningless. Benchmarking is really hard, and typically the more general the benchmark the more useless it is. Here's a little example. Several years ago we went to two companies to evaluate their high end machines. According to the specs and benchmarks Machine A was the clear winner, at least 3x faster than Machine B. When we actually ran our programs we found that Machine B was consistently 2 or 3x faster than Machine A. This was a pretty wide range of applications. There are several reasons why this happened. One was that Machine B had much better compiler technology. The other was that the specs and benchmarks didn't tell the real story, how the machine really performed. Its easy to tune a machine to look good on standard benchmarks, but it may not run anything else at near that speed. > > >You've been reading too much sales literature. AGP has no > >effect on a wide range of graphics applications. The only > >place its a big win is texture mapping. In all other cases > >the geometry still has to go through the CPU, which is FSB > >limited, no matter how fast the memory is. > > Sure, but AGP is better than -no- AGP, and it does show that there are other > busses available on a PC, yes? (Which was my original point.) > AGP is no worse than no AGP, but its not clear that its better for a lot of applications. But, thats not relevant at this point. > > >Its interesting to note that SGI fell into the same trap > >that you did when they design their graphics PCs. They > >put all sort of bandwidth in that thing, and then found > >that the competition blew them away, one of the main > >reasons SGI is in so much trouble now! They didn't > >realize that the PC is FSB limited, and all the bandwidth > >they had built in couldn't be used. > > I know this. But, frankly, -every- bus is limited! Knowing how to "tune" > a system's architecture is partially what makes computers fascinating to me. > > It's also one of the main reasons I enjoy looking at and studying these > old behemoths, even vaxes? ;-) > Well the IBM 390 architecture is still in use, which goes back to the 360 in the early 1960s. Thats a pretty long lived architecture. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From cem14 at cornell.edu Mon Oct 25 01:25:18 1999 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:06 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: References: <19991025000515Z433872-8503+215@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19991025012518.006f8118@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 07:56 PM 10/24/99 -0700, you wrote: >Excuse me? Could you please back up this assertion with data? After all, >at -some- point, all these busses have to get their data into/out of the CPU, >right? And -that- is a "bottleneck" for sure... (Sure, you can have >channel-to-channel I/O, but most aps are not just shuffling bits.) Well ... I have some experience with high-speed switches and crossbars in parallel supercomputers (as a user). The fallacy in your thinking is that you believe that moving data around is not "processing". You still think that the real processing takes place only at the cpu. Matter of fact is that, in the real world, as data goes through each driver/buffer and process in the OS on its way to the process that will actually do something with it (i.e., actual "integer-op-related" cpu time) there are usually several large block transfers. If all of this can happen without hogging the cpu (and you need hardware to do it) you can bet that the corresponding machine will be many times faster than a machine with a PCI bus. I once read that the average number of moves for net data (after it is in memory) for data from input through tcp/ip stack through OS through application is on the order of 4.x ... I think in some Sun literature... From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Oct 25 00:39:26 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: References: <19991025000515Z433872-8503+215@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991025013926.009d5100@mail.30below.com> On or about 07:56 PM 10/24/99 -0700, Mike Cheponis was caught in a dark alley speaking these words: >That's fascinating. Take obsolete hardware and architecture (vax), and >keep them running! I guess I will never cease to be amazed at the weird >things people do. Heck, I heard the other day that people are -still- >running 1401 emulation mode under a VM/360 simulator on their modern h/w! The last three places I worked for (or heard of thru the grapevine) were running mostly System 36 RPG apps in emulation on their AS/400 hardware... it's more common than you might think! >> Its not the speed >>of the individual bus, but its the number of busses. > >That's of course bull..... You crack on others for stating things without backing up with actual data... where's yours? My wife's box is a Pentium 100 running SCSI3Wide and I did benchmarks (real-world... but don't have them handy) which showed that box stomped a Pentium 166 / IDE. (Mind you, saying the IDE bus is rather an oxymoron, as it's an extension of the ISA bus IIRC... :-) The difference? The IDE bus is totally stupid (read: CPU controlled) whereas the SCSI bus is very smart (read: 80Mhz RISC CPU controlled) - the SCSI controller is offloading most of the CPU overhead. Despite all this, the mouse driver on it right now sucks wind, and can lock the entire machine for over 3 seconds... bad driver/bus design. That's something the PC world will prolly never get rid of. Tho I've never seen, touched, smelled a Vax, I've seen other DEC hardware (yes, even a 3-CPU 486DX33) that use sub-controllers for all of their I/O, and they handled lots of multiple users wonderfully, and if one I/O controller goes south, the equipment is designed to continue with minimal heartburn. >>The more busses, the more parallelism and the less waiting. > >-IF- the speed of the busses is high enough! And one bus cannot affect another bus... >>One >>fast bus works well until you want to do multiple things, and >>then it quickly becomes a bottleneck. > >Excuse me? Could you please back up this assertion with data? After all, >at -some- point, all these busses have to get their data into/out of the CPU, >right? And -that- is a "bottleneck" for sure... (Sure, you can have >channel-to-channel I/O, but most aps are not just shuffling bits.) The busses don't *have* to route their data thru the CPU (erm... unless it's the IDE bus...) if it's headed for memory - that's what DMA is for. A good DMA setup (which the PC doesn't have) can offload even more work from the host CPU, allowing it to do useful work instead of playing "data traffic cop." As always, YMMV, IMHO, and all that jazz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger ===== Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- zmerch@30below.com SysAdmin - Iceberg Computers ===== Merch's Wild Wisdom of the Moment: ===== Sometimes you know, you just don't know sometimes, you know? From mac at Wireless.Com Mon Oct 25 00:46:17 1999 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Oct 1999, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> Ah, to bad you don't know what you're talking about here. I know of a > >> certain major corporation that just got done putting a whole pile of new > >> VAX 7000's in a brand new computer room. Said corporation has numerous > >> computer rooms with VAXen, and these systems are heavily used. > > > >Maybe I should have said "Nobody -sane- is going to....". > > Let's put it this way, said corporations livelyhood DEPENDS on those > systems and thier stability and reliability. Wow. I remain amazed. > >> Speed isn't everything. > > > >You're right, speed isn't everything; it's the -only- thing! ;-) > > Wrong, what counts is that the computer can do the job that it needs to. > That is why you'll still find systems such as the PDP-8 and PDP-11 still in > service. That is also why most people don't need anything more than a > 68k-based Macintosh. This is dead-wrong. You assume that "the job" remains static. But the fact of the matter is, unless your computer is embedded in your microwave or toaster, you'll want to run new and interesting s/w on it. And, in general, that implies that you'll want a faster computer in 18 months. > I'll admit, with good hardware, and running UNIX, or OS/2 you've got a > pretty reliable system. I think we'll see that reliability increase as > time passes and you start to see real clustering on PC's. If you want TRUE > reliability though you'll either go with one of Compaq's OpenVMS or Tandem > systems Oh, hey, as my model says, PCs on the desktops, servers in the back rooms. I want my servers to be 100% 24x7. I use PCs, but I do agree that there are way better alternatives for backroom servers. > Then there is the question of which costs less, keeping these systems > running, or converting to something new (this is both a hardware and > software quesiton). If the current system does everything you need, why > change? In some cases it makes sense to run old apps in an emulator on new > hardware. If you're running some accounting application or airline reservations system, sure, keep it the same until its lifetime expires. But, does it scale? Can you load it more? > >What you failed to mention is that sgi is -only- selling NT these days, > >having given up on Big Iron. > > And you've failed to stay current. That may indeed be true. Could you please enlighten me? > >BUT, I would like the Vax Lover Crowd to acknowledge that they integer > >performance of their machine is pathetic. > > Yes, but the 64-bit 21264 Alpha can beat any PC out there! WAIT!!!!! WAIT!!!! I didn't say -anything- about Alphas! I just said, let me repeat a fact: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ F A C T ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ An Intel i486DX2/66 will run Dhrystone 2.1 2 to 3 times faster than a Vax 6500. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ F A C T ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Now, as for Alphas: I want one! ;-) > with VAX. BTW, I've got a letter I found today while cleaning up from > Compaq commiting to support the VAX hardware for a MINIMUM of 10 more years > through 2010. It's not like this is unsupported hardware. It's gonna cost you! > Where the PC has it made is cost. For a few hundred dollars you can build > a pretty good, and fairly fast system, and load UNIX on it. It's hard to > beat that. Right about that! But we love the old iron, right? That's why we're all here! -mac From mac at Wireless.Com Mon Oct 25 01:32:15 1999 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <99102423555902.25133@vault.neurotica.com> Message-ID: > On Sun, 24 Oct 1999, Mike Cheponis wrote: > >That's fascinating. Take obsolete hardware and architecture (vax), and > >keep them running! I guess I will never cease to be amazed at the weird > > Obsolete hardware? Are you aware that they're still being made? Systems > based on CURRENT technology, using CURRENT production techniques. > Keep in mind that the VAX isn't a computer...it's an architecture. There are > old implementations and new ones. What are the current models? What are the current specs? What new models are being designed? When will they be released? > Now, you say "obsolete architecture"...Do you honestly believe that PCs are > "new" computers? That architecture was designed in 1980. And it wasn't > designed to be scalable. The VAX was designed only a couple of years earlier, > and it *was* designed to be scalable. That's why they're still around, still > in demand, still working hard in the face of constant marketing lies by Intel > and Microsoft. Ahh, 32 bits is obsolete today. In case you hadn't noticed, even DEC figured that out, and did the Alpha. FACT: VAX is at end of life. > >What you failed to mention is that sgi is -only- selling NT these days, > > Wrong. Enlighten me, please. If I'm wrong, let me know. But simply calling me wrong without enlightening me is rude, IMHO. > >having given up on Big Iron. Also, the market sizes for IBM, HP, and Sun's > >"big iron" exist specifically to be those back-room servers that can do lots > >of disk I/Os per second (the web, eh?). > > ...the back-room servers that you insist are obsolete, you mean? I -never- insisted the back-room servers were obsolete. Gee, I wish people would actually carefully read and then respond, rather than getting all worked up and then to respond to something that's not even claimed! > >BUT, I would like the Vax Lover Crowd to acknowledge that they integer > >performance of their machine is pathetic. > > Old vaxen are slow. New vaxen are fast. C'mon, man. You're comparing > apples and oranges. Compare a current vax to a current PC. Hey, VAXes were wonderful in their day. There! The Quintessential CISC machine! The Best CISC there ever was! Long live the VAX!!!!! BUT A dx2/66 running Dhrystone 2.1 will be 2 to 3 times faster than an 6500. > > I sure would like the PC lover crowd to admit to themselves that the PeeCee >isn't the end-all-be-all of computing. It's a cheap, slow, nonscalable, poorly > designed architecture that some little ass-kisser fresh out of college came up > with to impress his boss at IBM. GET OVER IT. Excuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me! In case you hadn't noticed, there are more PCs than every other type of computer ever made, ever! Did you notice this? FACT: And it wasn't designed by some little ass-kisser fresh out of college; it was designed by Intel. > > -Dave McGuire -mac p.s. Is it common on this group for people to ignore the FACTS? Do FACTS matter, or is this a group where there are opinions and commonly-shared versions of reality, where facts are unimportant? From mac at Wireless.Com Mon Oct 25 01:35:33 1999 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <199910250349.XAA23173@armigeron.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Oct 1999, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: >Mike Cheponis once stated: >> >>>I'd rather have a nice VAX than a modern PC, >> >>My PCs are damn reliable; are you buying junk? They are -waaaaaaaaaaay- more > At one company I did some consulting work for they had a rather large > Another story relates how they shut the machine down to reboot it into > THAT was a reliable machine, although for the life of me I'm blanking on >the type of computer (I want to say Sequent (sp?)). > -spc (So far, the longest I've seen a PC go is 320 days) These are great stories, thanks for telling them. Really, isn't that they way we want computers to behave? It's almost as if they're alive! very best -Mike From mac at Wireless.Com Mon Oct 25 01:38:57 1999 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <99102500081405.25133@vault.neurotica.com> Message-ID: >>I seem to remember real world Unibus was mentioned to be up to >>1-1.2 Megabytes/second so your number may be right. I often wondered >>if it really got that high in real life... > > Unibus runs to 7mb/sec...slow, yes, but not bad for the time it was designed >and [very widely] used, IMO. I rather like Unibus. > > -Dave McGuire Thanks for that data, Dave. Unibus, for it's time, was absolutely wonderful. Although a little quirky (the closer you put a card in the cage to the processor, the higher priority at that level? And funny Bus Grant continuity cards?), it did serve as an easy-to-use and flexible I/O bus. I do think that DEC had some wonderful computers, and I learned most of my hardcore computer theory on 10s and 11s, and later, VAXes. Great Stuff. But now obsolete. But that's why we've all gathered here, right? ;-) -mac From mac at Wireless.Com Mon Oct 25 01:52:49 1999 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19991025012518.006f8118@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Carlos Murillo wrote: > At 07:56 PM 10/24/99 -0700, you wrote: > >Excuse me? Could you please back up this assertion with data? After all, > >at -some- point, all these busses have to get their data into/out of the CPU, > >right? And -that- is a "bottleneck" for sure... (Sure, you can have > >channel-to-channel I/O, but most aps are not just shuffling bits.) > Well ... I have some experience with high-speed switches and crossbars > in parallel supercomputers (as a user). The fallacy in your thinking is > that you believe that moving data around is not "processing". It's kinda like "simulfax shuffle time" (if you're a Firesign Theatre fan...). > You still > think that the real processing takes place only at the cpu. Matter of fact > is that, in the real world, as data goes through each driver/buffer and > process in the OS on its way to the process that will actually do something > with it (i.e., actual "integer-op-related" cpu time) there are usually several > large block transfers. If all of this can happen without hogging the cpu > (and you need hardware to do it) you can bet that the corresponding machine > will be many times faster than a machine with a PCI bus. Sure. But wouldn't it be better to just put the data in the right memory locations in the first place? > I once read that the average number of moves for net data (after it is in > memory) for data from input through tcp/ip stack through OS through > application is on the order of 4.x ... I think in some Sun literature... There are some papers about "Zero-Copy" TCP/IP implementations. Scatter/Gather DMA is helpful. People are aware of this problem. I claim that excessive buffer-to-buffer copies are usually an indication of poorly designed s/w. (The only way I can tie this with old iron is that on really slow machines like the 1620 or 1130 or 1401, you'd have to be very careful to not copy and copy and copy those buffers; you'd spend a lot of time figuring out how not to copy 'em, just because big buffer copying was so expensive. Heck, on the 1401, we'd manipulate data directly in locations 201-332, which was where the 132-column 1403 print buffer was, just so that we could max out that 600-LPM beauty of a printer!) -mac From mac at Wireless.Com Mon Oct 25 02:04:34 1999 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19991025013926.009d5100@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: > On or about 07:56 PM 10/24/99 -0700, Mike Cheponis was caught in a dark > alley speaking these words: > > >That's fascinating. Take obsolete hardware and architecture (vax), and > >keep them running! I guess I will never cease to be amazed at the weird > >things people do. Heck, I heard the other day that people are -still- > >running 1401 emulation mode under a VM/360 simulator on their modern h/w! > > The last three places I worked for (or heard of thru the grapevine) were > running mostly System 36 RPG apps in emulation on their AS/400 hardware... > it's more common than you might think! I think somebody mentioned that "if it works, don't touch it!" is a prevalent (and not crazy) business strategy. That makes sense to me. > >> Its not the speed > >>of the individual bus, but its the number of busses. > > > >That's of course bull..... In case you didn't notice, there were some sentences after that statement... > > You crack on others for stating things without backing up with actual > data... where's yours? My wife's box is a Pentium 100 running SCSI3Wide and > I did benchmarks (real-world... but don't have them handy) which showed > that box stomped a Pentium 166 / IDE. (Mind you, saying the IDE bus is > rather an oxymoron, as it's an extension of the ISA bus IIRC... :-) > The difference? The IDE bus is totally stupid (read: CPU controlled) > whereas the SCSI bus is very smart (read: 80Mhz RISC CPU controlled) - the > SCSI controller is offloading most of the CPU overhead. Hey, I think PC busses are stupid. It's taking a long time just to get to semi-reasonable busses, but that's the way it is. IDE is a particularly insidious bus. The electrical specs are not well- defined, and there are a panoply of "modes" PIO Modes 1,2,3,4, UDMA Mode 1 and Mode 2, etc. AFAIK, UDMA Mode 2 is actually as fast as UW SCSI II for a single disk drive; of course, people use SCSI for multi-spindle applications as well as high throughput. > Despite all this, the mouse driver on it right now sucks wind, and can lock > the entire machine for over 3 seconds... bad driver/bus design. That's > something the PC world will prolly never get rid of. Sounds like a s/w problem. Eject the virus, run Unix. > Tho I've never seen, touched, smelled a Vax, I've seen other DEC hardware > (yes, even a 3-CPU 486DX33) that use sub-controllers for all of their I/O, > and they handled lots of multiple users wonderfully, and if one I/O > controller goes south, the equipment is designed to continue with minimal > heartburn. I've used a PDP-1, PDP-5, PDP-6, PDP-8, PDP-9, PDP-10, PDP-11, PDP-12, PDP-15 and VAX-11/780, VAX-11/750, VAX-11/785, and VAX-11/8600. I love DEC! I used to work for them! But their machines are obsolete, and that's why we're discussing them here. -mac From spc at armigeron.com Mon Oct 25 01:57:50 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: from "Mike Cheponis" at Oct 24, 99 11:32:15 pm Message-ID: <199910250657.CAA26591@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2819 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991025/a0ee8eb3/attachment.ksh From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 25 01:44:28 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 References: Message-ID: <99102503062901.25336@vault.neurotica.com> This is the last of these that I will entertain. You're a flame-baiter, and while this has been fun, it's trashing the s/n ratio of the list rather badly. The facts remain, and as long as people keep paying me for my advice, I'll stick to what I've learned is the right path to take...in spite of Intel's marketing department's best efforts. On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Mike Cheponis wrote: >What are the current models? What are the current specs? > >What new models are being designed? When will they be released? Look at their web server. >> Now, you say "obsolete architecture"...Do you honestly believe that PCs are >> "new" computers? That architecture was designed in 1980. And it wasn't >> designed to be scalable. The VAX was designed only a couple of years earlier, >> and it *was* designed to be scalable. That's why they're still around, still >> in demand, still working hard in the face of constant marketing lies by Intel >> and Microsoft. > >Ahh, 32 bits is obsolete today. In case you hadn't noticed, even DEC figured >that out, and did the Alpha. What? Do you even understand the significance of data path width? You just said that numbers between 0 and 2^32 are obsolete. That's just plain silly. How many spreadsheets do YOU recalculate that require numbers larger than 4294967296? Do you really write code that handles so much in-core data that it requires larger than a 32-bit pointer? 64-bit processors are *different*. Better in some ways, but worse in others. Something does not magically become "obsolete" as soon as something new is introduced. Do you take your 1998 car to the dump as soon as the 1999 cars come out? Sure, the 1999 cars might be better in one way or another...progress is inevitable. But do you take that 1998 care to the dump or not? It's really no different. >FACT: VAX is at end of life. If you're a salesman, maybe. I'm not a salesman. I don't base my "obsolete" or "useless" judgements on the marketing decisions of vendors. >> >What you failed to mention is that sgi is -only- selling NT these days, >> >> Wrong. > >Enlighten me, please. If I'm wrong, let me know. But simply calling me >wrong without enlightening me is rude, IMHO. Irix is still supported and in development, as is Unicos. Neither of them will be going away anytime soon, mostly due to pressure from the US government and several very large customers. Something about "vital to national security". Guess they figured out that PCs can't do *everything*, huh? >> ...the back-room servers that you insist are obsolete, you mean? > >I -never- insisted the back-room servers were obsolete. Gee, I wish people >would actually carefully read and then respond, rather than getting all >worked up and then to respond to something that's not even claimed! Eeek, I guess I misunderstood you there...sorry... >Excuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me! In case you hadn't noticed, there are more PCs than >every other type of computer ever made, ever! Did you notice this? And I guess in your eyes that makes them GOOD, right? People don't buy PCs because they're well-designed. They don't buy them because they're fast. Nor do they buy them because they're the right tool for the job, or because they do anything particularly well. They buy them because they're conditioned to believe that _that's what they're supposed to do_. >FACT: And it wasn't designed by some little ass-kisser fresh out of college; it >was designed by Intel. Oh, sorry. A WHOLE FUCKING COMPANY full of ass-kissers fresh out of college. I stand corrected. -Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 25 02:15:08 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 References: Message-ID: <99102503184302.25336@vault.neurotica.com> On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Mike Cheponis wrote: >I've used a PDP-1, PDP-5, PDP-6, PDP-8, PDP-9, PDP-10, PDP-11, PDP-12, >PDP-15 and VAX-11/780, VAX-11/750, VAX-11/785, and VAX-11/8600. I love DEC! >I used to work for them! > >But their machines are obsolete, and that's why we're discussing them here. All of them. Automatically. Wait, let me guess...because they're not PCs, right? I'm becoming curious as to exactly what criteria define "obsolete" in your mind. Not curious enough to ask, mind you, but curious nevertheless. ;) -Dave From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 25 02:16:02 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: PCs vs. old minis and mainframes (was Re: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530) In-Reply-To: <199910242309.TAA26543@world.std.com> (message from Allison J Parent on Sun, 24 Oct 1999 19:09:33 -0400 (EDT)) References: <199910242309.TAA26543@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19991025071602.20950.qmail@brouhaha.com> Allison J Parent wrote: > I think FDDI is still in the 100++m/bytes/Sec region. No, FDDI is about 100 megabits per second. And it is fairly complex, typically requiring more host processing than Ethernet, so usually a cheap 100-base-T card on a PC will match or outperform the throughput. Only in very contrived cases that rarely (if every) occur in the real world is FDDI a win. So why was FDDI around at all? Simply because 100 megabit Ethernet hadn't yet been developed. > I will not argue this as PC are finally going fibre and Gigabit eithernet > but thats 10 years after the fact. FDDI cards were available for PC at about the same time as they were for VAXen, so this certainly doesn't help prove that a VAX can outperform a PC. Gigabit ethernet cards for PCs actually showed up *before* such cards for minicomputers. In fact, this phenomena is exactly why most minicomputers now support PCI. > Though there were a few parallel busses that were 50-100mbytes/sec rate. Backplane busses yes. But not any common peripheral or network interfaces that were used on VAXen in the late 1980s. > Two general catagories, memory interconnect and Storage interconnect. > There are several IO interconnects as well. Just as most VAXen had a memory interconnect that was faster than their I/O and network interfaces, so did the 486 PCs. This argument is another red herring that does not prove that a VAX outperforms a PC. As far as peripheral and network interfaces go, almost all of the very high-speed stuff is serial (electrical or optical), with the seriously high-speed stuff using parallel optical. Personally I'm getting tired of the type of rants about how PCs have such terrible I/O bandwidth and that any old 360/30 from 1965 could whup their ass because the 360 had I/O channels. Fact is, the cheapest PCs you can buy today have better I/O bandwidth to disks and networks than all but the highest performance mainframes of the 1980s. So why are modern PCs barely adequate to serve a single user, whereas 1960s-era mainframes that were hundreds of times slower could serve hundreds of users? Simple. The type of software that was run on the mainframes was MUCH different than what we run on PCs. If you ported the OS and applications from a 1960s mainframe to a suitably equipped modern PC (and I'm not talking about a $500 special, but a PC with a serious disk system), the PC would outperform it by the hundreds of times that you would expect. Similarly, as Mike Cheponis pointed out, a good 486 box WILL outperform a VAX 8650, if you run equivalent software on it. The 486 box has not just more CPU, but also more I/O bandwidth. Note that Mike did NOT say that about the VAX 6000. He was comparing to the 8650 because the benchmark figures were handy. Mark Green wrote: > Time for a short lecture in hardware architecture (you can tell > where I'm from :-)). Integer performance is a very misleading > measure of performance when you are talking about system > performance. Yes, that's true, but when the difference is very large, you can't just handwave it away by claiming that benchmarks are no good. Even if the dhrystone benchmark totally sucks, the fact that the 486DX2/66 outperforms the VAX 8650 by a factor of five is too large a difference to sweep under the carpet by saying that the VAX isn't good at dhrystones. Personally, the reason I have negligible interest in a VAX 6000 has nothing to do with performance. If I was concerned about absolute performance, I wouldn't be collecting PDP-8s and 11s. In my view, almost all VAXen but the 780 and 785 are completely uninteresting because they are full of custom parts that can neither be repaired if they break, or studied and understood. From mac at Wireless.Com Mon Oct 25 02:37:12 1999 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <199910250657.CAA26591@armigeron.com> Message-ID: > > A dx2/66 running Dhrystone 2.1 will be 2 to 3 times faster than an 6500. > > So? My roommate's 200MHz Pentium will blow my 7.1MHz 68000 based Amiga > out of the water, yet my Amiga still feels quicker, even though they have > the same capabilities (okay, the Pentium has a better sound system and > graphics sub-system than the Amiga, yet it took the PCompatible over 10 > years to match capabilities and it still feels a bit sluggish at times). I'm not a PC apologist, which seems to be where you guys are trying to paint me. I'm trying to make a simple point. AND, I'm trying to get ACTUAL DATA to SUPPORT ASSERTIONS with FACTS (gosh!). > So, a 486DX2/66 will beat a VAX 6500 in integer math. Great, if all I'm > doing is integer math. Do an I/O benchmark and I'm sure a VAX 11/780 will > beat the 486DX2/66 no problem. See? There you go again! The 780's I/O was no great shakes. Sure, you could stuff on a Fujitsu Eagle and do -pretty- good, but it was definitely no speed demon. Since a dx2/66 is around 20 to 30x the integer performance of that 11/780, I'm pretty sure the Intel part would crush an 11/780 in any benchmark you could name. Of course, the 486 came out in 1989, and the 11/780 came out in, what, 1979. And, I don't have data on the 11/780's I/O channels, so I can't be positive. > > Excuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me! In case you hadn't noticed, there are more PCs than > > every other type of computer ever made, ever! Did you notice this? > > I wouldn't go that far---as a general purpose computer, yes, it is > probably the most numerous. Most numerous of ALL computers? I doubt it. > More people probably have microwaves than computers. Or VCRs. Sure. Matter of context. When I said "computer" I meant "not embedded" because that's really a "controller" rather than a "computer". But your point is well taken. > >> FACT: And it wasn't designed by some little ass-kisser fresh out of college; it >> was designed by Intel. > > Sigh. What do they teach in school these days? It's a matter of understanding what "it" refers to. I took it to refer to the dx2/66 or its predecessors. They were built by Intel. IBM merely glued a pile of Intel chips together and put 'em in a box. > -spc (I've seen the building where the PC was designed---when I saw it, it > was an art museum) -mac From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 25 02:30:22 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: Benchmark Wars (was Re: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991024162509.021251b0@mcmanis.com> (message from Chuck McManis on Sun, 24 Oct 1999 16:43:01 -0700) References: <4.2.0.58.19991024145242.02123d60@mcmanis.com> <4.2.0.58.19991024162509.021251b0@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <19991025073022.21002.qmail@brouhaha.com> Chuck McManis wrote: > As an empirical note the 16450 UART often could not be serviced fast enough > by the 486DX66 to prevent it from dropping incoming characters above 9600 > baud. That was even with the "FastCOM" driver that came with Procomm plus > for DOS, not until the 16550 added a 16 (or was it 32) character FIFO did > it work. Now multiply that by 12? Say 9600 baud, every types a key. That is > 12 interrupts to service while you're potentially trying to push out 12 > streams of bytes. Which is why no one with any sense put 12 normal serial ports on a PC. Instead there was a thriving business in multiport cards from companies like Digi. Which isn't really dissimilar to the situation on minicomputers. In principle, you *could* put a whole bunch of DL11 async ports on a PDP-11. But noone in their right mind did so. Instead, they used DH11 and DZ11 muxes. So this is just another red herring in the attempt to prop up the assertion that old VAXen are "better" than late 1980s PCs. > Anyway, the VAX (and most DEC gear) got around this by having channel > processors _everywhere_ and of course the modern PC has channel processors > _nowhere_. (IDE taking this to the logical extreme) Actually, almost all PCs now *do* have the equivalent of a channel for the disk. It's not as functional as a 360/370 channel, but it's roughly comparable to the Massbus and DSI interfaces used on VAXen. It's split between the bus-mastering ATA interfaces of the Intel and Via chipsets, and the local intelligence of the disk drive. And almost all high-end Ethernet and SCSI cards have functionality equivalent to a channel. The 486DX2/66 systems Mike C. was comparing to obviously didn't have the PCI bus-mastering ATA disk interface. But for server applications those systems were typically configured with an Adaptec 1542 SCSI controller, which served as a very intelligent channel processor. > Somewhere I've got an 8 port serial card that was built for the 16 bit ISA > bus (it has 8 mini-din connectors on the card edge). The thought was to run > UNIX on a 486 and use terminals for multiple students. It didn't work. The > PC couldn't keep up. I fully admit though that given source code I might > have been able to make it work :-) Yes, I've been involved with businesses that used 486-class machines to server as many as 64 terminals for point of sale and inventory applications. No, there was no way that the system would have had adequate performance if it had to support that many users doing serious software development. But then, neither could the VAX. The 8650 which I used in the mid 80s would serve 50 users easily as long as only a few people were doing memory and CPU intensive things. But if more than three or four people tried to do a compile at once, performance went to hell. Which would have been OK if only the compute-bound jobs suffered. But the scheduler couldn't cope will enough, so even the "light" jobs became unresponsive. This is because everything that was learned in the 1960s and 1970s about building good timesharing systems was subsequently forgotten in the early 1980s. From mac at Wireless.Com Mon Oct 25 02:50:35 1999 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <99102503184302.25336@vault.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Mike Cheponis wrote: > >I've used a PDP-1, PDP-5, PDP-6, PDP-8, PDP-9, PDP-10, PDP-11, PDP-12, > >PDP-15 and VAX-11/780, VAX-11/750, VAX-11/785, and VAX-11/8600. I love DEC! > >I used to work for them! > >But these machines are obsolete, and that's why we're discussing them here. > All of them. Automatically. Wait, let me guess...because they're not PCs, > right? > > I'm becoming curious as to exactly what criteria define "obsolete" in your > mind. Not curious enough to ask, mind you, but curious nevertheless. ;) OK, Dave! ;-) All of the DEC machines I've used on the list, above, were introduced more than 10 years ago. That makes each of 'em "Classic Computers". Lucky us! For example, I hope to become part of a team that restores a PDP-1. That would be cool! (But I'm sure as heck not gonna browse the web on the '1 !) -mac p.s. (I don't know why you seem to think I love PCs; I think PCs really suck! HOWEVER, a dx2/66 running Dhrystone 2.1 will be 2 to 3 times faster than a VAX 6500.) From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 25 02:39:49 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <19991025000515Z433872-8503+215@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> (message from Mark Green on Sun, 24 Oct 1999 18:05:08 -0600 (MDT)) References: <19991025000515Z433872-8503+215@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <19991025073949.21051.qmail@brouhaha.com> Mark Green wrote: > The problems is equivalent hardware. You can't configure a PC > like a VAX, they are two different types of machines. A PC > is tuned for a single user, while a VAX is tuned for many users. > These are very different machine configurations, and even the latest > PC would have no hope of keeping up to a decade old VAX running > a large multiuser application. False. I have personal experience with PCs serving the same kind of workload you describe of VAXen, and they work fine. > Many of the PC manufacturers > have tried to scale PCs to this level and they have all failed. Compaq's high-end x86 based servers don't seem to have failed. > single bus systems like the PC can't scale to the performance required. The bus in a modern PC isn't the issue. It's comparable to what's in most workstations. The problem is the software architecture. Despite all of the ballyhoo surrounding MS Windows NT, the reality is that it is too bloated and inefficient to support enterprise applications. I'll agree with you that high-end server class machines today are more powerful, have higher bandwidth busses, and more busses, than most PCs. But how could it be otherwise? Anyhow, that's not what this discussion was about. The claim was that a 486DX2/66 PC could outperform a VAX 8650. And so far, no one has refuted that claim, though many people seem to have decided that it must be false, and given specious arguments as supposed proof. Apparently there is some sort of near-religious belief that a minicomputer (regardless of how old it is) MUST have better performance than a PC. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 25 02:44:38 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <199910250142.VAA20059@pechter.dyndns.org> (message from Bill Pechter on Sun, 24 Oct 1999 21:42:37 -0400 (EDT)) References: <199910250142.VAA20059@pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <19991025074438.21070.qmail@brouhaha.com> Bill Pechter wrote: > You could outrun the RH11 and Unibus pretty easily with stuff like > the RP07's and RM05's... The Unibus was a great idea, but they needed > a Massbus->Memory interconnect that didn't use the Unibus > for stuff like the 11/44 to perform with reasonable storage loads... Which is, of course, the main reason why the 11/44 didn't displace the 11/70. The 11/70 had a *much* longer product life than most minicomputers, because it was designed to support a lot more I/O bandwidth than was actually needed at its introduction in 1975. Of course, even the 11/70 eventually couldn't keep up with newer peripherals, so they redesigned the Massbus interface to add FIFOs. This doesn't increase the overall disk-to-memory bandwidth, but it allowed the use of disks with higher peak transfer rates. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Oct 25 02:56:28 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: IBM 5155 Anyone have one? In-Reply-To: <01bf1ead$0a478ce0$68110c18@c614529-b.baden1.pa.home.com> Message-ID: >Hi! > >Does anyone have an IBM 5155 (I think I got the model right) Portable PC >that they would want to sell/trade something for? You mean a 5140? From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 25 02:46:10 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: Last chance before they hit SCRAP... In-Reply-To: <991024220001.236009c1@trailing-edge.com> (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) References: <991024220001.236009c1@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <19991025074610.21097.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tim Shoppa wrote: > I thought all SMD interface drives used differential ECL signals on the > radial cables... They all used differential, but they weren't all ECL. The earlier stuff used TTL differential drivers and receivers. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 25 02:52:39 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <99102423555902.25133@vault.neurotica.com> (message from Dave McGuire on Sun, 24 Oct 1999 23:46:03 -0400) References: <99102423555902.25133@vault.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <19991025075239.21143.qmail@brouhaha.com> Mike wrote (about VAX 7000 systems): > That's fascinating. Take obsolete hardware and architecture (vax), and > keep them running! I guess I will never cease to be amazed at the weird Dave McGuire replied: > Obsolete hardware? Are you aware that they're still being made? Systems > based on CURRENT technology, using CURRENT production techniques. False. It's neither current technology nor current production techniques. DEC hasn't developed a new VAX chip since the NVAX+ in 1992. It's seven years out of date already. Of course, that doesn't mean that it isn't still useful. But it's a legacy system, not state of the art. From spc at armigeron.com Mon Oct 25 03:06:40 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <19991025073949.21051.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Oct 25, 99 07:39:49 am Message-ID: <199910250806.EAA27908@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1358 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991025/e10285fc/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 25 02:58:21 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: BIG disk drives (was Re: Last chance before they hit SCRAP...) In-Reply-To: <99102423581703.25133@vault.neurotica.com> (message from Dave McGuire on Sun, 24 Oct 1999 23:56:17 -0400) References: <991024220001.236009c1@trailing-edge.com> <99102423581703.25133@vault.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <19991025075821.21178.qmail@brouhaha.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > I explained to him slowly and carefully that I could walk because of moving > an RA80 last night. I must misunderstand your statement. Are you claiming that you couldn't walk before moving the RA80? How did the RA80 cure you? Sounds like a miracle to be; only three more needed before the RA80 becomes a saint. :-) As Al and I were unloading racks of System Industries Clustor 3 disks (at about 500 lbs. each), one of them nearly got away from him, and would have fallen on me if it had. I can just imagine what people's reactions would have been to hearing that I was killed by a falling disk drive: "What kind of freak accident was that? Disk drives only weigh a pound or two!" From mac at Wireless.Com Mon Oct 25 03:24:41 1999 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <19991025051915Z433656-8507+271@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> Message-ID: > > That's fascinating. Take obsolete hardware and architecture (vax), and > > keep them running! I guess I will never cease to be amazed at the weird > > Here's the clue to understanding it: software and business logic. Sure, if the old stuff works, why change? (Even if it -is- obsolete!) It does indeed make sense. > I do believe at one point you stated that a dx2-66 could beat a > VAX 8650 on any application (I don't think these are your exact > words, something like crushing one). This is what people are > reacting to, I don't think anyone is arguing about the difference > in integer performance. Thanks for helping me understand. I certainly believe the dx2/66 would make the 8650 cringe on any app, but I'd want to collect all the data on the 8650 (or 6500, for that matter) that would completely describe the I/O busses, memory busses, etc before I'd say for -certain- that the dx2/66 would kick old vax butt. > > >These are very different machine configurations, and even the latest > > >PC would have no hope of keeping up to a decade old VAX running > > >a large multiuser application. I don't believe this. > SGI is not selling any NT at this point, and its not clear that > they ever sold very much. The NT experiment at SGI is over, and > there are attempts to sell off what they can of it. SGI has > gone back to building big servers, and Unix/Linux based ones. > They realized that they weren't going to be able to scale > an NT solution, and their strength was in scaling. Yeah, this is an interesting gamble for sgi. Microsoft, of course, heavily believes in Win2k, including its scalability. In fact, I think W2K is going to do very well, as it is really pretty nice (I hate saying that, but, again, I'm trying to call 'em like I see 'em...). > > BUT, I would like the Vax Lover Crowd to acknowledge that they integer > > performance of their machine is pathetic. > > No one in this group ever said it was good. As I said above > the reaction was to your comment about PCs always being better > than a VAX regardless of application. I said a properly-configured PC would whip Vax butt in every case, yes. But I -don't- believe that a single PC would be the correct -solution- to deploy, as it is not scaleable or redundant. Clusters make more sense. > > > Its not the speed > > >of the individual bus, but its the number of busses. > > > > That's of course bull..... > > Then why does every large scale system maker build systems > with multiple busses. Name one large scale system that > has only one high speed bus. Surely they all aren't stupid, > there must be some reason for doing this. > > >The more busses, the more parallelism and the less waiting. > > > > -IF- the speed of the busses is high enough! This is a really simple point here. If I have 10 busses and each one runs at 1 megabit, is that any better than my one bus that runs at 100 Mb/s ? That's the only little point I was trying to make. (Like the point that you can bolt 16 VAX "CI" busses onto a modern PCI bus, and still have leftover bus cycles.) >>>One >>>fast bus works well until you want to do multiple things, and >>>then it quickly becomes a bottleneck. >> >>Excuse me? Could you please back up this assertion with data? After all, > Which CPU? If I have a high end system I will be running multiple CPUs. Yikes! Now we've jumped to Multiple CPUs! Yow! That's a Whole Different Ballgame! I've been reading Pfister's "In Search of Clusters" and I gotta say I'm coming to the conclusion that uni-processors tied into loose clusters gives the best bang for the buck (in all vectors: reliabilty, scaleability, etc.). > I agree about the problem of getting the data into the > CPU, and as I pointed out this is the weak point of PC based > systems. Everything goes into the CPU over a single bus, which > has had problems keeping up with processor speed. Look at how > many times Intel has changed the speed of the FSB over the past > year or so. Sure. And look how much bigger L1 cache is getting, and why more and more L2 cache is onboad the PIII modules. > > The thing that bothers me, tho, is that it's difficult to use such programs > > unless the h/w is relatively similar. > > Our graphics benchmarks run on everything from low end PCs right > up to high end workstations. We use lots of PCs, and we use > lots of high end workstations, I need to know the cross over > point in performance. If I can put an application on a PC I > definitely will. I gain in price, upgradability and accessibility, > but I can't do that with all applications (I wish I could, those > large SGI machines are really expensive). That sounds perfectly reasonable. Can you cluster some PCs to get a pseudo-parallel machine? > > That's the beauty (and downfall?) of benchmarks like Dhrystone 2.1 - it can > > be run on most any piece of computer h/w every designed. > > Yes, and the results are typically meaningless. Well.... I'm not quite so sure I'd go that far... > Benchmarking > is really hard, and typically the more general the benchmark > the more useless it is. Here's a little example. Several > years ago we went to two companies to evaluate their high > end machines. According to the specs and benchmarks Machine A > was the clear winner, at least 3x faster than Machine B. When > we actually ran our programs we found that Machine B was > consistently 2 or 3x faster than Machine A. This was a pretty > wide range of applications. There are several reasons why > this happened. One was that Machine B had much better compiler > technology. The other was that the specs and benchmarks didn't > tell the real story, how the machine really performed. Its > easy to tune a machine to look good on standard benchmarks, > but it may not run anything else at near that speed. So this is a spread of maybe 6x or so between A and B? Just curious, what were the Dhrystone 2.1 numbers for Machine A and Machine B? Could you run identical OSs on them? Could you (if you wanted to) run identical compilers on them? Yes, I acknowledge the difficulty of making good benchmarks, but we should start -somewhere- . >> I know this. But, frankly, -every- bus is limited! Knowing how to "tune" >> a system's architecture is partially what makes computers fascinating to me. >> >> It's also one of the main reasons I enjoy looking at and studying these >> old behemoths, even vaxes? ;-) > Well the IBM 390 architecture is still in use, which goes > back to the 360 in the early 1960s. Thats a pretty long > lived architecture. That is long-lived. The 360 was the quintessential upward-compatible architecture, right? "The "360 degrees" (full circle) of applications". And s/w compatibilty was paramount. My bet is we'll see the PC live for much much longer than the 360. It's just evolution, eh? -mac > -- > Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 25 03:08:45 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <199910250410.AAA05771@world.std.com> (message from Allison J Parent on Mon, 25 Oct 1999 00:10:47 -0400 (EDT)) References: <199910250410.AAA05771@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19991025080845.21218.qmail@brouhaha.com> Mike wrote: > Sure, but AGP is better than -no- AGP, and it does show that there are othe > busses available on a PC, yes? (Which was my original point.) Allison J Parent wrote: > NO! those busses cannot operate in parellel and they operate and the > expense of each other. Actually, in most recent PCs the PCI and AGP busses can and do operate independently. Some server-class PCs have multiple independent PCI busses, using the Intel 450 series chip sets. (Not to be confused with systems that simply have a PCI-to-PCI bridge.) The ISA bus doesn't operate independently, but it's only there for legacy devices, and some of the latest PCs don't even have it. > I'd add if you plug in a slow card the plug and > pray hardware may configure to that slower card at the expense of faster > ones around it. Huh? A slow card may tie up the PCI bus longer during a transfer, but when it is not using the bus, it doesn't affect the transfer rate of other cards. > All said and in the end, we have a troll. We may all have differing opinions, but let's try to keep this at the level of rational discourse. From BSands8417 at aol.com Mon Oct 25 05:54:14 1999 From: BSands8417 at aol.com (BSands8417@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: Punch Cards Message-ID: <0.b8c5bce1.254590d6@aol.com> I am setting up a class for 6-7 graders and need a few punch/hollerith, etc. cards to demonstrate past equipment/practices. Can anyone help? Thanks Ben Sands Bsands8417@aol.com From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Oct 25 06:11:09 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: IBM 5155 Anyone have one? Message-ID: <0.adb9529.254594cd@aol.com> In a message dated 10/25/99 4:05:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mikeford@socal.rr.com writes: > >Hi! > > > >Does anyone have an IBM 5155 (I think I got the model right) Portable PC > >that they would want to sell/trade something for? > > You mean a 5140? > well, its all semantics ,but the 5155 is called the portable pc and is a big suitcase sized machine. the 5140 is the covertible dual floppy laptop. d DB Young Team OS/2 --> this message printed on recycled disk space view the computers of yesteryear at http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm (now accepting donations!) From at258 at osfn.org Mon Oct 25 07:07:17 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19991025013926.009d5100@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: The PDP-9 we received last month had working as an industrial controller from the time it was built in the late 1960's until this July, when it broke down. If they had been able to get it fixed, it would would STILL be there running. Since they had problems, it was replaced with a Dell server. The original controls were replaced at the same time, and new software. The original plotter that it ran is still running. On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Roger Merchberger wrote: > On or about 07:56 PM 10/24/99 -0700, Mike Cheponis was caught in a dark > alley speaking these words: > > >That's fascinating. Take obsolete hardware and architecture (vax), and > >keep them running! I guess I will never cease to be amazed at the weird > >things people do. Heck, I heard the other day that people are -still- > >running 1401 emulation mode under a VM/360 simulator on their modern h/w! > > The last three places I worked for (or heard of thru the grapevine) were > running mostly System 36 RPG apps in emulation on their AS/400 hardware... > it's more common than you might think! > > >> Its not the speed > >>of the individual bus, but its the number of busses. > > > >That's of course bull..... > > You crack on others for stating things without backing up with actual > data... where's yours? My wife's box is a Pentium 100 running SCSI3Wide and > I did benchmarks (real-world... but don't have them handy) which showed > that box stomped a Pentium 166 / IDE. (Mind you, saying the IDE bus is > rather an oxymoron, as it's an extension of the ISA bus IIRC... :-) > > The difference? The IDE bus is totally stupid (read: CPU controlled) > whereas the SCSI bus is very smart (read: 80Mhz RISC CPU controlled) - the > SCSI controller is offloading most of the CPU overhead. > > Despite all this, the mouse driver on it right now sucks wind, and can lock > the entire machine for over 3 seconds... bad driver/bus design. That's > something the PC world will prolly never get rid of. > > Tho I've never seen, touched, smelled a Vax, I've seen other DEC hardware > (yes, even a 3-CPU 486DX33) that use sub-controllers for all of their I/O, > and they handled lots of multiple users wonderfully, and if one I/O > controller goes south, the equipment is designed to continue with minimal > heartburn. > > >>The more busses, the more parallelism and the less waiting. > > > >-IF- the speed of the busses is high enough! > > And one bus cannot affect another bus... > > >>One > >>fast bus works well until you want to do multiple things, and > >>then it quickly becomes a bottleneck. > > > >Excuse me? Could you please back up this assertion with data? After all, > >at -some- point, all these busses have to get their data into/out of the CPU, > >right? And -that- is a "bottleneck" for sure... (Sure, you can have > >channel-to-channel I/O, but most aps are not just shuffling bits.) > > The busses don't *have* to route their data thru the CPU (erm... unless > it's the IDE bus...) if it's headed for memory - that's what DMA is for. A > good DMA setup (which the PC doesn't have) can offload even more work from > the host CPU, allowing it to do useful work instead of playing "data > traffic cop." > > As always, YMMV, IMHO, and all that jazz, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > ===== > Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- zmerch@30below.com > SysAdmin - Iceberg Computers > ===== Merch's Wild Wisdom of the Moment: ===== > Sometimes you know, you just don't know sometimes, you know? > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From at258 at osfn.org Mon Oct 25 07:24:04 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Mike Cheponis wrote: > > For example, I hope to become part of a team that restores a PDP-1. That > would be cool! (But I'm sure as heck not gonna browse the web on the '1 !) Wanna borrow my VAX 8650 for that? ;) From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 25 08:28:06 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Until you fill memory. then the contest reverses. The 486s of the time > > were doing good at maybe 5meg bytes/sec and thats SLOW. The real test > > then and now is what the system does with relational database of say > > 100mb is size. > > It's a different test. I didn't say anything about relational database > performance. My users don't run drystones, they run databases and autocadd. > I was trying to get a handle on -real numbers- for the 8650, based on > numbers that are known. There are no performance numbers published for the > 6500 that I am aware of. Well don't use VUPs as interchangeable with MIPs, there is at best a weak relationship. VUP is vax unit of performance and it's more a real this is what it does with 50 users measure. You will find that some models of vax are far hotter than the VUPS would indicate for MIPS or Drystones compared to similar model with more vups. Why? optimized for math rather than IO throughput or other parameter. > Nor am I, I guess (is there an "average" retro geek?). I worked at DEC > '73-'75 in Marlboro. (We built 10s and 20s there). I had Ken Olsen over > for dinner and asked him about what it would take to get the PDP-11 out > there competing with these newfangled microprocessors (y'all know what Ken > thought about micros...). And I still have a copy of a memo I sent to Gordon > Bell, suggesting that we put the PDP-10 on a board and sell -that- into the > home market (and Gordon said: do it! and it was done, but several years > later...). This was in 1975, mind you... Ah, a ringer. > Is this VS3100 actually an Alpha? If so, I have always realized the > superiority of the Alpha. No contest. Your out of the loop. VS3100s are what some call baby VAXen they used varios version of the VAX chip starting with Cvax and wer mid 2s for VUP rating though there are models with far more impressive numbers. The VS3100m76 I have (pizza box) is rated 7.8vup and thats a 1992ish design and with the dual SCSI bus and 16mb of ram it was the hot desktop (and more). > CI (at 32 MB/sec) is 256 Megabits/sec. Therefore, you can hang 16 CI bus > adaptors onto a 66 MHz / 64-bit PCI bus. Except that bytime we got to PCI CI was already over 10 years old and there are fasters thing like fiber channel. > Wait! I'm -not- saying that the PC world when the VAX 8650 was introduced > was equivalent. Right, the vax was ahead. that race may have ended but it's really a quite recent event. > ALL I'M TRYING TO DO is to put some perspective on CPU performance of this > old obsolete VAX iron. If your saying a 486 can beat a 780 the answer is, depends. for a lot of stuff it is faster and for others it's a real dog. > I'm -merely- trying to understand the single-user performance of that old > iron in light of new iron (that I can actually benchmark). Until you take into account the OS and the services running along whith user tasks there is not compare save for those bare iron numbers that are meaningless. As a single user on my M76 I have all the graphics (higer res too) as the more common PCs and for many things its faster and some slower. Then again the RZ2x drive I'm using arent that fast either and I'm only running 16mb of ram... Put those constraints on you latest PIII/4xx and see where it goes between reboots. > Again, I dunno what kind of PCs you people were using, but I have not had > PC reliability problems. Maybe I'm unusual in that respect. I do better than average, I have uptimes that people tell me are unusual for PCs with w95 and winNT but... I have a MicrovaxII I bought on exit running VMS5.4-4 that was 4+ years old then thats still running and still averages better uptime than any PC (power failures are the limits there!) Sure it's slow, it's 1987 hardware but I don't worry if it's going to crash before it's done or want another 16mb of ram to keep the OS happy. I'm not saying PCs cant do this only that they generally dont achieve this. Then again not running anything from redmond helps. But that does not correct inherent limitations. > But for those old systems? Sooner or later, the maintenance costs will become > too high, and the Itaniums will replace 'em, eh? Life is like that and we die too. Allison From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon Oct 25 08:32:23 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: Benchmark Wars (was Re: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530) In-Reply-To: <19991025073022.21002.qmail@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "Oct 25, 1999 7:30:22 am" Message-ID: <199910251332.JAA21478@pechter.dyndns.org> > And almost all high-end Ethernet and SCSI cards have functionality > equivalent to a channel. Which is why my AMD 586x133 eats a lot of 100 Mhz Pentiums for lunch. The Adaptec 2742 is quite a nice VLB controller. > > The 486DX2/66 systems Mike C. was comparing to obviously didn't have the PCI > bus-mastering ATA disk interface. But for server applications those > systems were typically configured with an Adaptec 1542 SCSI controller, which > served as a very intelligent channel processor. Yup... and the 1542 was pretty minimal compared with the CAM supporting SCSI stuff out there now with tagged queueing. > > No, there was no way that the system would have had adequate performance if > it had to support that many users doing serious software development. > > But then, neither could the VAX. The 8650 which I used in the mid 80s would > serve 50 users easily as long as only a few people were doing memory and CPU > intensive things. But if more than three or four people tried to do a compile > at once, performance went to hell. Which would have been OK if only the > compute-bound jobs suffered. But the scheduler couldn't cope will enough, so > even the "light" jobs became unresponsive. This is because everything that > was learned in the 1960s and 1970s about building good timesharing systems was > subsequently forgotten in the early 1980s. > What OS? BSD? Ultrix? VAX/VMS? Actually, the scheduler on VAX/VMS was pretty good if tuned well. I've had 50 developers on an 8650 without problems. The trick was putting the compiles in via batch at a priority behind the folks editing code... (Of course me running 50 copies of the CPU and floating point diags at priority 10 on an 11/780 left the EDT users thinking the machine had gone south. But it did pull the intermittant errors and help me fix one machine.) Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon Oct 25 08:35:11 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: from Mike Cheponis at "Oct 25, 1999 0: 4:34 am" Message-ID: <199910251335.JAA21499@pechter.dyndns.org> > > On or about 07:56 PM 10/24/99 -0700, Mike Cheponis was caught in a dark > > alley speaking these words: > > > > > > You crack on others for stating things without backing up with actual > > data... where's yours? My wife's box is a Pentium 100 running SCSI3Wide and > > I did benchmarks (real-world... but don't have them handy) which showed > > that box stomped a Pentium 166 / IDE. (Mind you, saying the IDE bus is > > rather an oxymoron, as it's an extension of the ISA bus IIRC... :-) > > > The difference? The IDE bus is totally stupid (read: CPU controlled) > > whereas the SCSI bus is very smart (read: 80Mhz RISC CPU controlled) - the > > SCSI controller is offloading most of the CPU overhead. > > IDE is a particularly insidious bus. The electrical specs are not well- > defined, and there are a panoply of "modes" PIO Modes 1,2,3,4, UDMA Mode 1 > and Mode 2, etc. > > AFAIK, UDMA Mode 2 is actually as fast as UW SCSI II for a single disk drive; > of course, people use SCSI for multi-spindle applications as well as high > throughput. > Yeah, but try striping a disk across a number of spindles. You need either SCSI or a Smart RAID type IDE controller. > But their machines are obsolete, and that's why we're discussing them here. > Obsolete is in the mind of the MIS director, not the techies. > Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 25 08:48:40 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Wrong, what counts is that the computer can do the job that it needs to. > > That is why you'll still find systems such as the PDP-8 and PDP-11 still in > > service. That is also why most people don't need anything more than a > > 68k-based Macintosh. > > This is dead-wrong. You assume that "the job" remains static. But the > fact of the matter is, unless your computer is embedded in your microwave > or toaster, you'll want to run new and interesting s/w on it. And, in > general, that implies that you'll want a faster computer in 18 months. Weather you machine is a NC mill or toaster you want it to do their designed function, not run nifty software that you have laying around. The only excuse for a toaster upgrade is burnt toast. > If you're running some accounting application or airline reservations system, > sure, keep it the same until its lifetime expires. But, does it scale? > Can you load it more? To many depends there. Often the software does not scale. If it were vax or as400 the answer is well known, yes. > An Intel i486DX2/66 will run Dhrystone 2.1 2 to 3 times faster than a Vax 6500. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ F A C T ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It's still meaningless. > Now, as for Alphas: I want one! ;-) Buy one, they run just a tad more than your average Xeon/500 with all the bells... Of course you can get an antique one that is only 330mhz a lot cheaper. Allison From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon Oct 25 08:53:02 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: Solaris Pentium vs. Solaris Sparc In-Reply-To: <3813CF9B.B3B3FB2B@mainecoon.com> from Chris Kennedy at "Oct 24, 1999 8:33:47 pm" Message-ID: <199910251353.JAA21607@pechter.dyndns.org> > The problem is that I can't attach equivalent hardware. > Given the choice between deploying Solaris on an x86 or a sparc I'll take > the x86 90+% of the time -- on the desktop the price-performance is tough > to beat. However, there's > simply no way that I can do it for anything that requires shuffling around > large amounts of data. I can't get a PC that has enough aggregate bandwidth; > an Enterprise machine will smoke the PC's doors off despite the fact that the > PC is clocking hundreds of Mhz faster (aside: does anyone know offhand what > the typical CPI is for the Ppro, PII and PIII?). Again, that's not a > commentary on the processor, it's a commentary on the overall architecture. > A Sequent, for example, has a far better architecture than any PC I can buy. > > > I run Solaris on Ppros, PIIs and Sparcs, Linux on PIIIs and OpenBSD on Sparcs. > The PCs are less reliable than the sparcs, but even then they're far more > reliable than anything from the late 70's. If we look at contemporaries, my > fuzzy recollection is that the 785 I was using was generally a hell of a lot > more reliable than the PC/AT I was using at the time -- and the 785 cranked > a hell of a lot harder than the AT did. > > Cheers, > Chris Having played around with equivalent 486-66's and SparcII's (properly configured) I'd say Solaris works better on Sparc. I'm not sure that I'd pick the Sparc over PC using the a different OS (say, OpenBSD or Linux). The PC's are often less reliable because of cheap non-parity memory, badly designed cheap IDE disks and such. (I've run 6 years of FreeBSD on PC's with only two hardware related failures -- 486/33 motherboard and one Adaptec 2740 -- the later due to me mis-plugging the SCSI connector and bending and shorting a controller pin.) My SparcII's and 10's at work don't do as well and I've already been through one Ultra's motherboard. My new home box is a K6-2 450 on an FIC 503+ motherboard with dual SCSI Fast Wide Symbios controllers. Damn thing feels as solid and quick as the 8650 Vax (but I miss the RT11 front end). Now if FreeVMS would be available in addition to the mix of DOS/Win31/OS2/FreeBSD/Linux/Win2000 that I'm loading I'd be happy. Your mileage may vary.... Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon Oct 25 08:56:37 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: VAX vs. PC In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at "Oct 25, 1999 9:28: 6 am" Message-ID: <199910251356.JAA21657@pechter.dyndns.org> > > If your saying a 486 can beat a 780 the answer is, depends. for a lot of > stuff it is faster and for others it's a real dog. > Unless you can run VAX/VMS on a 486 (either native or emulated), I'll take the 11/780. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From edick at idcomm.com Mon Oct 25 09:30:21 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: Reliable PCBs at home Message-ID: <003801bf1ef5$90dbadc0$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> This appears to be the procedure, though I forgot to mention that the copper has to be applied electrically to the drilled boards prior to application of the second (after the .000030" flash of copper which is chemically applied, but the dry-film I meant was indeed the solder mask. All my boards were made with dry-film solder mask, since that worked so well for my wirewrap boards. I liked the appearance, and silkscreened legends went on top of it wit little smearing and blurring, so they could be REALLY small. I never considered letting a shop do parts of the job, but I'll explore that before I give up completely. thanks for the explanation. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Marvin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, October 24, 1999 10:48 PM Subject: Reliable PCBs at home > > >Richard Erlacher wrote: >> >> First of all, I haven't read ALL of this thread, but I recall Tony or >> someone else replying to him saying something about the method for making >> plated through two-sided boards in your home. I've never met anyone aside >> from professionals with scads of equipment who could do that, but it seems >> to me that the method which was described to me was to start with bare >> fiberglass/epoxy panels, drill them, then apply a slightly conductive >> coating in liquid form which had to be forcibly dried (perhaps baked) before >> the resist was applied. The boards were then exposed, the films applied to >> registration targets on each side, to a powerful UV light, for which some >> prefer to use direct sunlight, and the boards subsequently developed, then >> etched. >> >> Has any of you ever encountered an approach to this that could be managed in >> the home environment with equipment costing, nominally, less that a k-buck >> or two and achieving nominally 10-mil traces with 8-10 mil separation or >> anything close to that? How about a dry-film solder mask? > >First of all, there are service shops that will take a drilled board, do the >PTH process, and electroplate the desired amount of copper onto the board. >The normal process for making PTH boards is as follows. > >The copper clad laminate is cut to panel size and drilled. The drilling is >usually done on an NC machine. The NC program can either be supplied as a >drill file, or it can be hand programmed. Hand programming involves taping >the artwork (or more likely a copy) to a programing table, marking the rout >to follow for each drill size, and then just the grunt work of centering >each hole in a scope, and pushing a foot pedal that records that location. > >There are a number of different processes for doing PTH, but the most common >is to take the drilled panel(s), run it through an electroless copper line >(cleaning, catalist, accellerator, electroless copper) that will put about >30 millionths of copper on the board, and electroplate about .3 mill or so >of copper on the bare panel (enough so the rest of the process doesn't >create problems with the plated through holes.) > >The next step is imaging and how that is done depends on the required >quantity and line density. What I used (prototype/short run shop) was use >dry film. The board is cleaned and laminated with a photosensitive film. The >artwork was transferred to diazo film, and the diazo films were used to >actually image the board. At this point, the board is developed and the >copper you see is what you want. > >The rest of the process is fairly short. Electroplate copper up to the >desired thickness, electroplate tin-lead, strip the dry film, etch, gold >plate the fingers if necessary, fuse the tin-lead into solder, route, clean, >and ship. The etching is usually done by machine using an alkaline etching >solution. > >Doing the process at home can be done with a minimum of equipment if service >shops are used for parts of the process. A small copper plating tank, >tin-lead tank, and peroxide-sulfuric etchant along with fusing oil and flux >can be set up at home for probably a couple hundred dollars. To set up a >fairly complete shop including drilling and imaging would probably cost >between 2K and 3K. This would provide the capabilities of producing >reasonably high quality boards. Oh, did I forget to mention getting the >experience to know how to do it :)? > >BTW, I think you just meant dry film above. Dry Film Solder mask does >require UV curing and is probably impractical for home use. However silk >screening the soldermask and legend is easy and inexpensive to do at home. From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon Oct 25 09:38:10 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: Punch Cards In-Reply-To: <0.b8c5bce1.254590d6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Oct 1999 BSands8417@aol.com wrote: > I am setting up a class for 6-7 graders and need a few punch/hollerith, > etc. cards to demonstrate past equipment/practices. > > Can anyone help? SUre. Drop me your address (off list) and let me know if you want anything in particular on them. -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 >>> Coming soon to www.computergarage.org - the CBBS/NW on-line archives From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Oct 25 10:11:24 1999 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 References: Message-ID: <3814731C.1BAB31F@mainecoon.com> Mike Cheponis wrote: [stuff deleted] > > Wrong, what counts is that the computer can do the job that it needs to. > > That is why you'll still find systems such as the PDP-8 and PDP-11 still in > > service. That is also why most people don't need anything more than a > > 68k-based Macintosh. > > This is dead-wrong. You assume that "the job" remains static. But the > fact of the matter is, unless your computer is embedded in your microwave > or toaster, you'll want to run new and interesting s/w on it. And, in > general, that implies that you'll want a faster computer in 18 months. *sighs* For a large dollar segment of the hardware marketplace this assertion is simply not true. Finance applications in particular tend to run one and only on thing on a machine or a small collection of machines; when you run out of gas you buy a code compatable but bigger version of what you were previously running on and repeat, praying that your vendor won't pull the plug on your instruction set architecture and thus nuke your only viable upgrade path. This may not make much sense at first, but you need to understand that these systems are mission critical and the people who use them are generally risk adverse. Tell a trader that his trade support system will be down for five minutes and he'll throw you out his window; as far as he (and his employer) are concerned the world can change radically in that period of time. The second factor has to do with the ability of these firms to construct software, even software that simply replicates existing functionality on a new platform. It largely doesn't exist, which is why individual institutions can and have spent as much as $1billion (that's *one* bank) on internal systems development and gotten *nothing* that worked as the return on their investment. So against that backdrop a legacy architecture which scales by installing larger and larger versions (or clusters, if the vendor supports the notion) is quite common on the higher end of the marketplace. [snip] > > Then there is the question of which costs less, keeping these systems > > running, or converting to something new (this is both a hardware and > > software quesiton). If the current system does everything you need, why > > change? In some cases it makes sense to run old apps in an emulator on new > > hardware. > > If you're running some accounting application or airline reservations system, > sure, keep it the same until its lifetime expires. But, does it scale? > Can you load it more? Of course. [snip] > WAIT!!!!! WAIT!!!! I didn't say -anything- about Alphas! I just said, > let me repeat a fact: > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ F A C T ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > An Intel i486DX2/66 will run Dhrystone 2.1 2 to 3 times faster than a Vax 6500. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ F A C T ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Actually, what people are reacting to is the following: On Sun, 24 Oct 1999 14:24:54 -0700 Mike Cheponis wrote: > Hey, I'm not saying the original IBM PC was going to outperform the VAX 6500; > but a modern PC will crush any VAX in any application, IMHO, with equivalent > h/w attached. PC isn't synonymous with Intel, when this statement was made it opened the door to a discussion of machine architecture designed to show that the above assertion was untrue. Cheers, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Oct 25 10:22:16 1999 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 References: Message-ID: <381475A8.677B400D@mainecoon.com> Mike Cheponis wrote: [stuff deleted] > FACT: And it wasn't designed by some little ass-kisser fresh out of college; it > was designed by Intel. That's gonna come as a hell of a shock to the boys from Boca. Intel is responsible for the processor, not the PC nor the architecture of the PC. There's a hell of a difference. > p.s. Is it common on this group for people to ignore the FACTS? Do FACTS > matter, or is this a group where there are opinions and commonly-shared > versions of reality, where facts are unimportant? *ROFL* You're kidding, right? You can't distinguish between a PC and it's processor and accuse others of ignoring facts?? Best, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Oct 25 10:39:18 1999 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 References: Message-ID: <381479A6.BA44D16B@mainecoon.com> Mike Cheponis wrote: [snip] > See? There you go again! The 780's I/O was no great shakes. Sure, you > could stuff on a Fujitsu Eagle and do -pretty- good, but it was definitely > no speed demon. Since a dx2/66 is around 20 to 30x the integer performance > of that 11/780, I'm pretty sure the Intel part would crush an 11/780 in any > benchmark you could name. I note that we've ratched down from "any vax" to "11/780". TPC-C comes to mind... [snip] > > Sigh. What do they teach in school these days? > > It's a matter of understanding what "it" refers to. I took it to refer to > the dx2/66 or its predecessors. They were built by Intel. You've been talking about PCs as machines and x86 processors interchangably, so you'll understand our confusion. > > IBM merely glued a pile of Intel chips together and put 'em in a box. Where "glued the chips together" means "designed (although I use the term loosely) the memory and I/O architecture". Cheers, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Oct 25 10:41:46 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: from "Mike Cheponis" at Oct 25, 99 01:24:41 am Message-ID: <199910251541.IAA14759@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 569 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991025/355ae1e0/attachment.ksh From mac at Wireless.Com Mon Oct 25 10:46:33 1999 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Mike Cheponis wrote: > > For example, I hope to become part of a team that restores a PDP-1. That > > would be cool! (But I'm sure as heck not gonna browse the web on the '1 !) > Wanna borrow my VAX 8650 for that? ;) Naaah, thanks. The 8650 is too slow.... 8-) -mac From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Mon Oct 25 10:41:06 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? Message-ID: <80256815.00568581.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> > Of course you could, but why would you want to? What's the problem with > PCBs (or am I going to find out for myself when I get seriously into > making them at home?) Nothing except that I thought they were a more recent innovation. I was thinking along the lines of, this is how you might build it with technology available in 19XX Can anyone give a timeline with (a) the invention and (b) the first commercial availability of: PCBs, Transistors, ICs (perhaps divide up by technology and scale of integration), and possibly other items of technology relevant to this period (say, 1940 to 1970)? Along similar lines, what multipin plugs were available at what date? In the 1930s and 40s, multipin plug and socket often meant something that plugged into a valve (tube) base... Philip. This E-mail message is private and confidential and should only be read by those to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, reproduction, modification or publication of this communication is strictly prohibited. Please delete the message from your computer and destroy any copies. This message is not intended to be relied upon by any person without subsequent written confirmation of its contents. This company therefore disclaims all responsibility and accepts no liability of any kind which may arise from any person acting, or refraining from acting, upon the contents of the message without having had subsequent written confirmation. If you have received this communication in error, or if any problems occur in transmission please notify us immediately by telephone on +44 (0)2476 425474 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Oct 25 10:54:01 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? Message-ID: <991025115401.23600a57@trailing-edge.com> >> Of course you could, but why would you want to? What's the problem with >> PCBs (or am I going to find out for myself when I get seriously into >> making them at home?) >Nothing except that I thought they were a more recent innovation. Than... ? > I was >thinking along the lines of, this is how you might build it with technology >available in 19XX Printed circuit boards were used in consumer electronics as early as the late 1940's. These were true "printed circuits" (i.e. copper traces applied to substrate) and not the wamsy-pamsy etched circuits you'll find today :-). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 25 11:07:17 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 References: Message-ID: <99102512075908.25336@vault.neurotica.com> On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Mike Cheponis wrote: >For example, I hope to become part of a team that restores a PDP-1. That >would be cool! (But I'm sure as heck not gonna browse the web on the '1 !) If that works out for you, I will be BIGTIME jealous. :-) -Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 25 11:09:08 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:07 2005 Subject: BIG disk drives (was Re: Last chance before they hit SCRAP...) References: <19991025075821.21178.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <99102512102209.25336@vault.neurotica.com> On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Eric Smith wrote: >Dave McGuire wrote: >> I explained to him slowly and carefully that I could walk because of moving >> an RA80 last night. > >I must misunderstand your statement. Are you claiming that you couldn't >walk before moving the RA80? How did the RA80 cure you? Sounds like >a miracle to be; only three more needed before the RA80 becomes a saint. :-) Oh no...typo...I meant "could HARDLY walk". :-) >As Al and I were unloading racks of System Industries Clustor 3 disks >(at about 500 lbs. each), one of them nearly got away from him, and would >have fallen on me if it had. I can just imagine what people's reactions >would have been to hearing that I was killed by a falling disk drive: >"What kind of freak accident was that? Disk drives only weigh a pound or >two!" Eeeeeek!! Now *those* are big disks! Glad you didn't get squashed! -Dave From mac at Wireless.Com Mon Oct 25 11:10:58 1999 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <381479A6.BA44D16B@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Chris Kennedy wrote: > Mike Cheponis wrote: > > See? There you go again! The 780's I/O was no great shakes. Sure, you > > could stuff on a Fujitsu Eagle and do -pretty- good, but it was definitely > > no speed demon. Since a dx2/66 is around 20 to 30x the integer performance > > of that 11/780, I'm pretty sure the Intel part would crush an 11/780 in any > > benchmark you could name. > I note that we've ratched down from "any vax" to "11/780". TPC-C comes to mind... Chris, PAY ATTENTION: READ MY LIPS! -I- was not the one who made the initial comparison of dx2/66 to a 780. I -continue- to assert (until data proves me otherwise, and getting data on obsolete machines like VAX 6500 is apparently next to impossible or non-existent) that the dx2/66 will kick serious VAX 6500 butt, too, -with equivalent h/w- . You -do- remember me saying that, right? The POINT is that the busses and performance of "modern" (that is, >1989) PCs are BETTER than the 6500, AND that modern PCs leave EVERY VAX ever made in the dust. Why is reality so hard for some people here to comprehend? Look, I like old junk, too; that's why we gather here. But it is old, tired, worn-out, obsolete junk! I think it's fascinating that people wish to keep old PDP-9s going if possible, 'cause their application is operationally equivalent to an embedded processor. Great for History Lessons, I guess. But, for me, trusting a Mission Critical application on a PDP-9 today is business suicide. > > It's a matter of understanding what "it" refers to. I took it to refer to > > the dx2/66 or its predecessors. They were built by Intel. > You've been talking about PCs as machines and x86 processors interchangably, > so you'll understand our confusion. I didn't make the initial comparison, mind you. As for me, PC and x86 processors -are- essentially equivalent in this context, and any distinction is merely pedantic. > > IBM merely glued a pile of Intel chips together and put 'em in a box. > > Where "glued the chips together" means "designed (although I use the term > loosely) the memory and I/O architecture". C'mon! IBM did essentially nothing but run wires between Intel's chips. > Cheers, > Chris -mac p.s. Folks, help me out here: Try to actually -read- what I say, and perhaps even quote it (In context, please!) and -then- open up your flamethrowers and have at it. I especially appreciate thoughtul comments that prove that I'm wrong, and show me what's right. But I'm getting a little tired of defending things I did't say or assert. Also, please, no public name-calling. Send me private email if you want to call me names. Thanks, all! From cem14 at cornell.edu Mon Oct 25 11:18:07 1999 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 References: <199910251541.IAA14759@shell2.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <381482BF.91FCAA09@cornell.edu> I recently migrated from a gorgeous 160 processor Big Blue SP2 to a 64 node (4x500Mhz pentiums/node) AC3 Velocity NT cluster. (See http://www.tc.cornell.edu/UserDoc/SP/what.is.sp2.html ; I hope it is accessible outside Cornell). The reason? We did not have funding to upgrade the SP2, and the NT cluster was sort of a gift. The switch in the NT cluster is supposed to be several times faster than that in the SP2, which is 150MB/s (it is also 6 years newer). Quite frankly, I don't see a performance improvement of that magnitude as a user. And I am not happy with the scheduler and the development environment (understatement). But everything is under development, so perhaps things will improve soon. As an aside, installation of the cluster took 15 hours for a 7 person team, while the SP2 took weeks ... other links if you are interested... http://www.tc.cornell.edu/er/media/1999/cluster.html "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > I'm curious, what clustering software is available that will match or exceed > OpenVMS? Under Linux you've got Beowulf, but that's basically a distributed > processing system IIRC. Under NT they like to claim they can cluster, but > the NT Admins I've spoken with about it admit it's basically failover, and > it can't even do that well. > > Zane -- Carlos Murillo-Sanchez email: cem14@cornell.edu 428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853 From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Mon Oct 25 11:37:18 1999 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <19991025073949.21051.qmail@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "Oct 25, 1999 07:39:49 am" Message-ID: <19991025163728Z433921-29789+143@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > Mark Green wrote: > > The problems is equivalent hardware. You can't configure a PC > > like a VAX, they are two different types of machines. A PC > > is tuned for a single user, while a VAX is tuned for many users. > > These are very different machine configurations, and even the latest > > PC would have no hope of keeping up to a decade old VAX running > > a large multiuser application. > > False. I have personal experience with PCs serving the same kind > of workload you describe of VAXen, and they work fine. > > > Many of the PC manufacturers > > have tried to scale PCs to this level and they have all failed. > > Compaq's high-end x86 based servers don't seem to have failed. Note that in the above comments I said PC, I did not say server. I'm talking about a PC architecture and not the particular chip, such as an Intel chip. I have yet to see a PC (as in workstation) have more than 2 CPUs. I can get 2 CPU systems from the likes of HP, DELL, whoever gets SGIs NT line, etc. But thats where it ends. On a workstation, such as SUN, SGI, HP and probably others I can scale above 2 CPUs. The PC architecture was designed to be low cost. It works very well that way, but you can't say its the best architecture for everything (which is the point being discussed). At some point you need to go to multiple busses, multiple processors, interleaved memory architectures, etc. > > > single bus systems like the PC can't scale to the performance required. > > The bus in a modern PC isn't the issue. It's comparable to what's > in most workstations. > > The problem is the software architecture. Despite all of the ballyhoo > surrounding MS Windows NT, the reality is that it is too bloated and > inefficient to support enterprise applications. I can run the same software on a PC and a workstation. I don't need to run MS software on a PC, there are several variants of unix that run on both workstations and PCs. In addition there are some aspects of NT that are quite nice (but I'll get flamed on this news group for saying that). You need to get down to the kernel level to appreciate it, but we throw away most of the MS stuff that comes with our NT machines anyways. > > > I'll agree with you that high-end server class machines today > are more powerful, have higher bandwidth busses, and more busses, > than most PCs. But how could it be otherwise? Anyhow, that's not what > this discussion was about. > > The claim was that a 486DX2/66 PC could outperform a VAX 8650. And so > far, no one has refuted that claim, though many people seem to have > decided that it must be false, and given specious arguments as supposed > proof. Apparently there is some sort of near-religious belief that a > minicomputer (regardless of how old it is) MUST have better performance > than a PC. > You may be arguing that, and I agree with your point. Its just comments like the PC architecture can outrun anything that I find hard to take. Some of these statements may have come out in the heat of the arguments. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From g at kurico.com Mon Oct 25 11:49:44 1999 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: References: <381479A6.BA44D16B@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: > Chris, PAY ATTENTION: READ MY LIPS! -I- was not the one who made the > initial comparison of dx2/66 to a 780. I -continue- to assert (until > data proves me otherwise, and getting data on obsolete machines like > VAX 6500 is apparently next to impossible or non-existent) that the > dx2/66 will kick serious VAX 6500 butt, too, -with equivalent h/w- . > You -do- remember me saying that, right? All this ranting has been mildly amusing but is now quickly headed into the annoying category. Seeing's how this is the "Classic Computing List" and that various members of the list actually own the hardware in question, why don't we put our money where our mouths are and actually come up with a "Shootout". First we come up with the ground rules (general hardware configs, various application test cases, etc). If we could find the approriate VAX hardware somewhere near the next VCF, then we could use the VCF crowd itself to act as our load and it would make for a cool and actually on topic demonstration. Of course this doesn't have to be limited to VAXen or 486/66's, actually having a "modern" pc as comparision would also be interesting. And if someone has another favorite example of early big iron, that could also be used. So how about it, let's stop blowing air and let's start actually doing something. George From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Oct 25 13:05:48 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: DOS 1.10 In-Reply-To: <3812177E.546AF4FC@rain.org> Message-ID: <199910251706.TAA04461@mail2.siemens.de> > > > > > > W9x driver assumes default formats. use a dos box to copy the contents of > > the disk to a format the winbox knows. FYI: Don't bother win9x in dos mode > > as it's still the same drivers. > I was running in a DOS box when doing the above. Since then, I made a > diskcopy on the Compaq and went back to try reading it under win95 with the > same results. My guess is that win9x no longer supports the 8 sector format, > but I don't for sure. I might add that I was doing this with a HD floppy > drive, but I wouldn't think that would affect the reading of the disk. Well, it might still be true. I think I remember a lot of trouble, back when HD Drives where introduced, about compatibility when reading old stuff. Basicly, Win95 (tested on a 95a) should be able at least to recognice the media format and react acordingly. Gruss H. -- Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh. H.Achternbusch From elvey at hal.com Mon Oct 25 12:07:09 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: Benchmark Wars (was Re: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991024162509.021251b0@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <199910251707.KAA15291@civic.hal.com> Chuck McManis wrote: > > As an empirical note the 16450 UART often could not be serviced fast enough > by the 486DX66 to prevent it from dropping incoming characters above 9600 > baud. Hi The problem with dropping characters was because of slow video in scrolling the screen. I rewrote a scroll that did one line at a time and then checked the UART. It was able to handle text at 115.2K without any UART buffering at all. It did have a software fifo for the input though. So, it can be done, you just have to know the bottle neck. Dwight From cem14 at cornell.edu Mon Oct 25 12:07:33 1999 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 References: <381479A6.BA44D16B@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <38148E55.96470810@cornell.edu> Chris Kennedy wrote: > > Mike Cheponis wrote: > > [snip] > > > See? There you go again! The 780's I/O was no great shakes. Sure, you > > could stuff on a Fujitsu Eagle and do -pretty- good, but it was definitely > > no speed demon. Since a dx2/66 is around 20 to 30x the integer performance > > of that 11/780, I'm pretty sure the Intel part would crush an 11/780 in any > > benchmark you could name. > > I note that we've ratched down from "any vax" to "11/780". TPC-C comes to mind... Mike: you wanted numbers. The 11/780 is one machine on which I do have a few recently acquired docs. In page 2-2 of the 1977-78 VAX 11/780 architecture handbook there is a nice figure of the cpu and different interconnects. Basically, the cpu, main memory and I/O subsystems were tied to the Synchronous Backplane Interconnect (SBI), 13.3 MB/s, cycling at 200ns. The console was attached to the CPU directly thorugh a separate channel. Any device could request control of the SBI and control was granted using a priority scheme. The I/O subsystem could hold one unibus adaptor (1.5 MB/s) and up to four massbus adaptors (2MB/s each). The cpu had 8KB of two-way set-associative write-through cache (and the instruction set allowed for generation of very compact code). The cache monitored I/O <=> main memory transfers and updated accordingly. Given this architecture, I think that there is reason to assume that an 11/780 might service 100 users over serial lines faster than any 486-66 PC . Just think of the interrupt service overhead of 100 users typing simultaneously, even with 16 byte FIFO buffers. By the way, this little book is great reading... It really puts things in perspective to see the great 11/780 implementation 22 years ago... Carlos. -- Carlos Murillo-Sanchez email: cem14@cornell.edu 428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853 From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Oct 25 12:12:43 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 Message-ID: <19991025171243.27983.rocketmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > One of the stories about the machine relate to a package that just showed > up one day. They open it up to find a replacement fan for the machine. It > seems that the machine in question had determined that one of the fan units > was marginal and had placed an order for a new one from the manufacturer. Tandem's do that. They used to print warning messages on the console that failover had occurred, but people got out of the habit of reading the logs. The solution: bypass the customer and order parts directly from the vendor when faults were detected. Most customers learned that something failed when a) a part showed up or b) a field-service engineer showed up. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Oct 25 12:12:04 1999 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 References: Message-ID: <38148F64.2062DD7D@mainecoon.com> Mike Cheponis wrote: > Chris, PAY ATTENTION: READ MY LIPS! -I- was not the one who made the > initial comparison of dx2/66 to a 780. I -continue- to assert (until data > proves me otherwise, and getting data on obsolete machines like VAX 6500 is > apparently next to impossible or non-existent) that the dx2/66 will kick > serious VAX 6500 butt, too, -with equivalent h/w- . You -do- remember me > saying that, right? Close. The quote I've found by dredging through the messages is the one I quoted earlier: > Hey, I'm not saying the original IBM PC was going to outperform the VAX 6500; > but a modern PC will crush any VAX in any application, IMHO, with equivalent > h/w attached. That's not quite an assertion about the dx2/66; in fact it's not quite an assertion about the x86 in general. Sure, we can postulate a 486dx2 machine with a bunch of buses and channel processors, but that's not what was being asserted above. > The POINT is that the busses and performance of "modern" (that is, >1989) PCs > are BETTER than the 6500, AND that modern PCs leave EVERY VAX ever made in > the dust. Perhaps. I'm not terribly familiar with Vaxen, but in general a machine with a single high performance bus yeilds inferior performance in data intensive applications in comparison with machines equipped with multiple buses. Contention sucks. > Why is reality so hard for some people here to comprehend? Speaking only for myself, it's because the assertions keep changing. > Look, I like old junk, too; that's why we gather here. > > But it is old, tired, worn-out, obsolete junk! A great deal of it, yes. I don't believe that's what people are reacting to; while there may be a few it's not my sense that people are reacting to your statements out of some emotional attachment to Vaxen or a physical revulsion to x86 machines. > I think it's fascinating that people wish to keep old PDP-9s going if > possible, 'cause their application is operationally equivalent to an > embedded processor. Great for History Lessons, I guess. > > But, for me, trusting a Mission Critical application on a PDP-9 today is > business suicide. I'd generally agree, but until something better and proven comes along you're kinda stuck. I'm hardly thrilled with the computing technology behind the enroute air traffic control system, but it's proving to be a bitch to replace. The same holds for certain systems in other industries. It sucks, but it is what it is. > > > It's a matter of understanding what "it" refers to. I took it to refer to > > > the dx2/66 or its predecessors. They were built by Intel. > > > You've been talking about PCs as machines and x86 processors interchangably, > > so you'll understand our confusion. > > I didn't make the initial comparison, mind you. As for me, PC and x86 > processors -are- essentially equivalent in this context, and any distinction > is merely pedantic. That's fair, but for others of us the term "PC" implies a certain family of I/O architectures. I don't consider a Sequent to be a PC, despite the fact that they use the same processors. > > > IBM merely glued a pile of Intel chips together and put 'em in a box. > > > > Where "glued the chips together" means "designed (although I use the term > > loosely) the memory and I/O architecture". > > C'mon! IBM did essentially nothing but run wires between Intel's chips. I'm the last guy to defend IBM's architecture for the PC, but IMHO there's slightly more there than just laying out something from Intel data sheets. Maybe we should move on? Best, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk Mon Oct 25 11:12:28 1999 From: peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 References: Message-ID: <000001bf1f0c$a9ae3c20$cf11883e@proteus> This thread is starting to get tedious, it was interesting to start with but now seems to have degenerated into pointless argument. Mike, you seem either to be rather ill informed or out to start a flame war. Despite the fact that I have my arm in a sling and it's agony to type (result of moving a piece of classic iron recently) I can't sit by and watch this pass without making at least some comment. After which I'm filtering out this thread.... So, to business. >....I think single-user; I run single-user machines.... Exactly, Mike you're looking at just ONE sector of the computer world. What is important to you is of no consequence to a vast number of other people/corporations who need to support multiple users and process vast amounts of data. >....The future is single-user with vast network-accessed databases. RUBBISH, you're making assumptions based on your own view of the industry. In the real world there is a need for both single user systems/workstations AND (comparatively) large multi user installations. Both types of systems are targeted at different types of applications and both will always have their place in the market. But then, of course, I think you probably realise this and are just offering us more flame bait? > BUT, I would like the Vax Lover Crowd to acknowledge that they integer > performance of their machine is pathetic. More flame bait. Do you REALLY think that making assertions such as this is going to make anyone on the other side of the fence anything but defensive????? As others have already pointed out, integer performance/MIPS/drystones etc is NOT a good indicator of overall SYSTEM performance. THAT is what is of importance at the end of the day. A personal example....in the mid '80s I was working in the video games industry writing software for Atari and Commodore systems (Atari 8-bit, C64/+4, Atari 7800). I used to assemble my programs on the Atari and transfer them to the target system rather than use a cross assembler on a PC. Why? Because although the PC I had access to ran a V20 at 8MHz compared to the rather pedestrian 1.79MHz of my Atari's 6502 the PC took roughly 4 times longer to do the same job - even with the obvious advantage of having a hard drive. If you want the damn figures I expect I still have them somewhere (though it would mean digging out my Atari system to access the data). It was a simple case of superior SYSTEM architecture. >> Its not the speed of the individual bus, but its the number >>of busses. > > That's of course bull..... > >>The more busses, the more parallelism and the less waiting. > > -IF- the speed of the busses is high enough! It depends entirely on the system architecture. Two 1MHz busses will be faster than a single 2MHz bus if they are being used for different purposes, such as one for I/O and one for memory accesses. Particularly in the case of the PC the single expansion bus is a major bottleneck. The original design had all I/O, memory, memory refresh etc ALL done over a single bus. Although things have gotten a lot better with the introduction of MCA, EISA, VL and PCI, separate RAM busses etc there's still a long way to go. We still effectively have a single bus down which we're trying to shovel the majority of our data. >After all, at -some- point, all these busses have to get their data >into/out of the CPU.... No, at some point all these busses have to get their data in/out of MEMORY. Polled/interrupt driven I/O is at best extremely wasteful of processor time....this is why I personally use SCSI in my PC in preference to IDE (which makes it ALMOST usable). >....and it does show that there are other busses available on a >PC, yes? (Which was my original point.) But with just ONE bus in the system you STILL have a bottleneck. It doesn't matter how many lanes you have on a single motorway, or how fast your car is, when you have a lot of traffic on the road you still get traffic jams and major bottlenecks at junctions and on/off ramps.... TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk Mon Oct 25 11:14:31 1999 From: peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 References: Message-ID: <000101bf1f0c$aaf64c80$cf11883e@proteus> Mike, > Excuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me! In case you hadn't noticed, there are more PCs >than every other type of computer ever made, ever! Did you notice this? Oh come on, since when has quantity been any measure of QUALITY? The black death was rather popular in the middle ages too you know.... There is one major reason that the PC is so popular, despite being such a lousy, unreliable system (and before you harp on again about how reliable YOUR PC is try supporting a site with 400+ PCs on it. You'll soon change your opinion of the reliability of these machines). Remember the old adage from the '70s and early '80s "Nobody was ever fired for buying IBM", that's why PCs are so popular today....they made it into countless companies around the world and thus filtered down into the homes of the workers when they wanted their own machines (usually to run software they'd swapped with their colleagues at work). The expandability factor helped a lot too, but if not for the PC's popularity in the workplace it would've gone the same way as the Apple ][, S100 based machines etc. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Oct 25 12:28:11 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: Did the list change? Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991025122811.01f0ab60@vpwisfirewall> I haven't received anything from this list in the last week or so. As far as I know, nothing changed on my end. I've tried to send 'subscribe' and 'which' commands to the listproc, but I get no response. Did something change at U-Wash? - John From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Oct 25 12:35:59 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: from "Mike Cheponis" at Oct 25, 99 09:10:58 am Message-ID: <199910251736.KAA16243@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3671 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991025/a69f2d93/attachment.ksh From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Oct 25 13:37:14 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: Benchmark Wars (was Re: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530) In-Reply-To: References: <199910250105.VAA17189@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199910251738.TAA09601@mail2.siemens.de> > > <> If you're doing ray tracing, get a fast PC. > > <> If you're timesharing dozens of people, a VAX is not a bad choice. > > Wait! What I'm saying is that if you were sufficiently motivated, you could > very well timeshare dozens of people on a PC. Well, it depends what you are about to do. Of course you can handle a lot of users at the same time on a small machine, if the task is right - my personal record is 64 simultanious users on a 8 MHz 286 in a special situation (Well, as obviously, the task was not very intensive, mainly gathering user requests and multiplexing them on host chanels, and demuxing and forwarding the results - and the whole communication was structured in a _very_ friendly fashion - all talk was done in a block orientated protocoll (HDLC-ish), where the handling could be done completly inside the drivers - and these did reside on Z80 subsystems - and of course all in assembly - but still, this machine was going to the limit - throughputs up to 400 kByte/s - I did write my own Real Time OS, includeing some real time debugging tools - I had some nasty memory management vs interupt handlin bugs, so I wrote a single step module, where the OS did trace itself... fun:) and more 'standard', a BBS with up to 4 users on a 8MHz (1ws) 80186 with up/dowload at 38400 bps, without losing data (Again of course Assm, but this time without any co-proz help and interrupt driven), coming _very_ close to the end of the story. What I want to say, is that it is _very_ depending on your application structure if 4 or 64 users are the maximum load - if your CPU has to handle every Byte, and posibly has to route every byte until the top level aplication rather than handle it in a driver (char mode vs. block mode), even a powerfull CPU can be loaded with low productivity tasks, instead of doing the 'real' job. The same is of course true for any other I/O - if the machine has to handle every user entry serial (i.e. waiting until the disk is finished, since ther is no detatchable bus) than there is no room for multiple users. After all it is more a question how well application structure and machine structure kooperate (or not). > > > > > yes, but the IO is polled or interrupt and that adds 500% overhead. > Only if the interface h/w is losing. Multiport async boards almost always > have on-board micros that obviates the need for polling. Interrupts transfer > a big batch of data. Well, but if your app needs to check every Byte at its time, these batches use the gigantic amout of 1 Byte per transfer ... > > > > > > > > "fun" here means "difficult". Well, if they are block mode terminals - or if it is just output, if this is done at driver level, direct mapped ports can still be filled in time (keyword fifo/treshold) > > The system might require that to be dispersed across 12 buffers and there > > are overheads associeted with that. > Yes. in pdp-11 lingo: mov (r0)+,(r1)+ ... Not ---too--- much overhead. ;-) OUTSB ? (scnr :) > But, sure in the general case, when you are actually doing something, > it's going to be tough to use the ISA bus only. ISA isn't that bad. > > < contrary, I remain amazed that it has taken the PC industry as long as it > > < has to recognize the importance of I/O speed. 64-bit 66 MHz PCI and 2x AG > > < are steps in the right direction... Yes, the microcomputer industry seem > > < hellbent on re-discovering what the mainframe and mini guys knew 20 or 40 > > < years ago...) > > Yes. thats the whole point. > Exactly. (should i mention the MicroChanel ... better not :) Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Oct 25 12:02:47 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: Benchmark Wars (was Re: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530) In-Reply-To: References: <199910250105.VAA17189@world.std.com> Message-ID: >> <> If you're doing ray tracing, get a fast PC. >> <> If you're timesharing dozens of people, a VAX is not a bad choice. >> < >> >Wait! What I'm saying is that if you were sufficiently motivated, you could >very well timeshare dozens of people on a PC. I have a dozen or so PS/2 model 95 servers, which are 486 either DX2-66 or a slightly faster DX50, and what I have been told is that routinely each machine would serve between 50 and 100 clients in a common business environment. When I get a bit more time I am anxious to see what they will do running semimodern software as some sort of web or ftp server. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Oct 25 12:24:58 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >This is dead-wrong. You assume that "the job" remains static. But the >fact of the matter is, unless your computer is embedded in your microwave >or toaster, you'll want to run new and interesting s/w on it. And, in >general, that implies that you'll want a faster computer in 18 months. I am so glad this isn't true. This endless appetite for pain is NOT universal. Many people don't give a rodents hind parts about new applications, they really really really just want email and word processing. Have you seen what a VooDoo3 card will do in an old P166? That is NOT suffering, that is decent speed to play most games. OS releases and a few games, with fewer still applications have exploded into outrageous bloatware, and I hope it bites them in the rear but good now that ram prices are making people pay twice for their upgrades. Windows 2k from all the reports I am reading is "hoping" for a 30% upgrade rate in the first year. That is leading to a royally sucking situation, developers need to be compatible with W2k, 98, 95 (and its two or three versions), with a sprinkle of a couple NT releases, maybe W3.1, leaving only DOS out in past. Dropping support for an existing application in windows 95 will be a curious point for some time I think. All sorts of questions rise up about tech support costs, erosion of user base, to staff continuity (non of the original software people are still around to make OS specifc changes in 95 etc.). From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Oct 25 12:52:56 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <381482BF.91FCAA09@cornell.edu> from "Carlos Murillo-Sanchez" at Oct 25, 99 12:18:07 pm Message-ID: <199910251752.KAA16471@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 874 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991025/b05b701e/attachment.ksh From jerome at strobedata.com Mon Oct 25 13:13:58 1999 From: jerome at strobedata.com (Jerome) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: HP CS/80, SS/80 & Amigo Protocols Message-ID: <38149DE6.B825EAE7@strobedata.com> Hello: I saw a message from jeff.kaneko@juno.com where it appears he got some docs on the CS/80 etc. protocol from you. I think this is the protocol used by HP for its HP-IB disks. I suspect that this protocol uses a block mode addressing that spans a variety of devices built and sold in the 80's and early 90's, incl. some by Bering (an alternate source of HP-compatible HP-IB storage products). I am looking for the disk protocols and command set to see if I can talk to these devices with a National Instruments (GP-IB) board in a PC running NT with a driver written in a modern high-level language. I suspect that the commands are device-independent, as these HP devices worked with a broad scope of computers, with very little change in configuration. Does this sound like the same docs you have? If so, may I please get a copy of those docs? I think that they are the same that Jeff got from you. I'm in the Seattle area (Redmond) and am willing to pay for your trouble photocopying. Please give me a call and we can talk. I suspect that some of HP's SCSI protocols are similar in structure and would like any thoughts you have on this. Thanks, Jerome Hodges Strobe Data, Inc. 8405 165th Ave NE Redmond, WA 98052-3913 Ph. 425-861-4940 Fax 425-861-4295 From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 25 12:58:58 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: (g@kurico.com) References: <381479A6.BA44D16B@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <19991025175858.24466.qmail@brouhaha.com> "George Currie" wrote: > All this ranting has been mildly amusing but is now quickly headed > into the annoying category. I agree. This suggests a new addition to the ClassicCmp FAQ: Q: Should I post verifiable, factual statements about old computers? A: For God's sake, no! Doing so will lead to huge flame wars. Please stick to opinions only. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 25 13:03:52 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <38148F64.2062DD7D@mainecoon.com> (message from Chris Kennedy on Mon, 25 Oct 1999 10:12:04 -0700) References: <38148F64.2062DD7D@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <19991025180352.24540.qmail@brouhaha.com> Chris Kennedy wrote: > I'm the last guy to defend IBM's architecture for the PC, but IMHO there's > slightly more there than just laying out something from Intel data sheets. Get out the schematics of the original 5150 PC and study them. You'll realize that what IBM did was copy the 8088 application notes, and then screw things up at nearly every opportunity. The only detailss of the 5150 that don't fall right out of the application notes are 1) The way that the 8259 interrupt controller is used: IBM botch this severely. 2) The actual pinout of the bus connectors. 3) The keyboard and cassette interfaces. When I hear people talking about the way the IBM PC was "designed" (or, worse yet, "architected"), it makes me cringe. However, given that it was a skunkworks project on a tight schedule, with no intention of setting a standard that would be used by hundreds of millions of systems in the future, I can't really blame them. From cfandt at netsync.net Mon Oct 25 13:23:45 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <38148F64.2062DD7D@mainecoon.com> References: Message-ID: <4.1.19991025142305.00acf9a0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 10:12 AM 10/25/99 -0700, Chris Kennedy said something like: -- snip -- >Maybe we should move on? PLEASE! From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Oct 25 13:31:12 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: Did the list change? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991025122811.01f0ab60@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: <4.1.19991025112949.040b8760@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> I tried to mail John but some mailer between here and there is bouncing all mail to threedee.com. If anyone has a phone number for him please tell him to contact the sysadmin of the machine whose IP address is 209.83.62.3 : 209.83.62.3 does not like recipient. Remote host said: 550 relaying mail to threedee.com is not allowed Giving up. --Chuck At 12:28 PM 10/25/99 -0500, you wrote: > >I haven't received anything from this list in the last week or so. >As far as I know, nothing changed on my end. I've tried to send >'subscribe' and 'which' commands to the listproc, but I get no >response. Did something change at U-Wash? > >- John > From ToddJ at symresources.com Mon Oct 25 13:34:01 1999 From: ToddJ at symresources.com (Todd Jaspers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: Did the list change? Message-ID: <81ABF6783ED5D111816E00A0C997EB9536652A@FTPSERVER1> Hi, im sorry to say that I can't handle all this e-mail on my work e-mail account. Can anyone tell me how to unsubscribe and resubscribe? I did not bookmark the original web site address I was at when I first subscribed. Thanks. Todd -----Original Message----- From: John Foust [mailto:jfoust@threedee.com] Sent: Monday, October 25, 1999 1:28 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Did the list change? I haven't received anything from this list in the last week or so. As far as I know, nothing changed on my end. I've tried to send 'subscribe' and 'which' commands to the listproc, but I get no response. Did something change at U-Wash? - John From at258 at osfn.org Mon Oct 25 13:34:07 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Promise you won't do Drystone tests on the PDP-1... On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Mike Cheponis wrote: > On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > > On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Mike Cheponis wrote: > > > > For example, I hope to become part of a team that restores a PDP-1. That > > > would be cool! (But I'm sure as heck not gonna browse the web on the '1 !) > > > Wanna borrow my VAX 8650 for that? ;) > > Naaah, thanks. The 8650 is too slow.... 8-) > > -mac > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From cem14 at cornell.edu Mon Oct 25 14:09:54 1999 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: help id'ing board Message-ID: <3814AB02.F9683BB9@cornell.edu> Hi everyone; I found a board that could fit in my microvax II if I decided to push it in. Let me describe it: manufacturer: Recognition Concepts Inc., assy. # 100220, then in the back: 100221 fab rev A It has: -large DIP 64 pin IC by TRW, marked 1007JIC3 8451/AP -LS glue logic -7808, 7908 and 7906 regulators -couple LH0024's, four other analog chips in a section where traces are sandwiched between ground planes. The only external connector is a subminiature rf-style gold-plated connector, close to this analog section, and, most important, -two DAC0800LCN chips. I thought it might be some kind of successive approx A/D, but, why two DAC's then? cascading them to get a higher resolution would require unreliable, painful calibration... And only one channel... or maybe the analog multiplexer occupied a separate board... Has anybody seen this beast before? Carlos. -- Carlos Murillo-Sanchez email: cem14@cornell.edu 428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853 From blrab at digisys.net Mon Oct 25 14:51:16 1999 From: blrab at digisys.net (Bob Bushnell & Olga Lincoln) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: Radio Shack TRS-80, Model 1 Message-ID: <000b01bf1f22$4f2f1ce0$442231cf@rabol> I have a TRS-80 Model 1. The monitor is third-party, the disk drives are third-party. I have all the documentation, plus NEWDOS 80. Not wanting to trash it (chuckle), do you have a home or where's the best place to post this? The machine is in NW Montana. I can't pay for shipping, although I will pack it carefully for shipping. In other words, the machine is free, FOB Polson, MT. Any ideas? Bob Bushnell blrab@digisys.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991025/cd1f7d60/attachment.html From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon Oct 25 14:59:04 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: XXDP help needed In-Reply-To: <7v23m6$n7c@web.nmti.com> from Peter da Silva at "Oct 25, 1999 5:23:18 pm" Message-ID: <199910251959.PAA22432@pechter.dyndns.org> > In article <7v20se$i4n$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > > Can anyone give me a rundown on the commands needed to use ZRQBC1 > > to format an RD52?? > > > Is there docmentation available anywhere for XXDP?? People always > > tell me UNIX is too cryptic, what would they say if the saw XXDP?? > > I wonder what extent DEC's naming conventions led to their ultimate > downfall? Once you're used to it you can tell a LA120 from an RZ28 and > a KZPCM-AA from a FRPG4-WI, but damn... > > -- > In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva > `-_-' Ar rug t? barr?g ar do mhact?re inniu? > 'U` Sigs with pfy's markov chain. > -- "pfy", a markov chain IRC bot. Is my memory of the breakdown of the diags correct? +--> Diag software | +--> Second diag | | ZRQBC1 | | | +-->Revision C patch level 1 +--RQDX? disk controller (does the R stand for Rotating Memory Here?) Always found DEC's PDP11/Vax naming conventions made more sense than IBM's or HP's. (Except for the DL/RL/DM/RM/RK issues with boot rom input vs. drive names...) And their diag supervisor xxdp diags were much easier to deal with than almost anything else. (I loved the early xxdp stuff you had to deposit to constant locations to change the seek/read-write timings). Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Oct 25 16:58:22 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: HP CS/80, SS/80 & Amigo Protocols In-Reply-To: <38149DE6.B825EAE7@strobedata.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991025165822.2347d644@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi Jerome, Yes, I have the CS 80 spcification. I think I may have the one for the Amigo command set as well. I don't have anything on the SS-80 command set but I'm looking for it. I got a message similar to this from someone in Canada. I think he was also trying to find an altenative to the Bering drives. At 11:13 AM 10/25/99 -0700, you wrote: >Hello: > >I saw a message from jeff.kaneko@juno.com where it appears he got some >docs on the CS/80 etc. protocol from you. I think this is the protocol >used by HP for its HP-IB disks. I suspect that this protocol uses a >block mode addressing that spans a variety of devices built and sold in >the 80's and early 90's, incl. some by Bering (an alternate source of >HP-compatible HP-IB storage products). > >I am looking for the disk protocols and command set to see if I can talk >to these devices with a National Instruments (GP-IB) board in a PC >running NT with a driver written in a modern high-level language. I >suspect that the commands are device-independent, as these HP devices >worked with a broad scope of computers, with very little change in >configuration. Yes, I'm sure you're right. There are three main proto-calls that I'm aware of, The Amigo, the SS-80 and CS-80. The Amigo is the oldest. It was replaced by SS-80 and CS-80. SS-80 stands for Sub-Set 80. I assume that means it's a Sub-set of the CS-80. SS is only used for floppy drives except for a very few hard drives that used it so that they could be used on stuff like HP-85s that do not support CS-80. On those systems, SS-80 makes the hard drive appear as several floppy drives. Does this sound like the same docs you have? If so, may I >please get a copy of those docs? I think that they are the same that >Jeff got from you. I'm in the Seattle area (Redmond) and am willing to >pay for your trouble photocopying. OK I'll have to look for them. > >Please give me a call and we can talk. I suspect that some of HP's SCSI >protocols are similar in structure and would like any thoughts you have >on this. OK. I think I have something on one of HP's SCSI drives. I'll try to find it too. I'm in Florida and I'll be out this evening but you can call me at (407) 365-2986. I work out of my home so I'm here most of the time. Give me a day or two to try and locate the stuff first. Joe > >Thanks, >Jerome Hodges >Strobe Data, Inc. >8405 165th Ave NE >Redmond, WA 98052-3913 >Ph. 425-861-4940 >Fax 425-861-4295 > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Oct 25 16:09:06 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: Apache for VAX In-Reply-To: <000b01bf1f22$4f2f1ce0$442231cf@rabol> from "Bob Bushnell & Olga Lincoln" at Oct 25, 99 01:51:16 pm Message-ID: <199910252109.OAA18757@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 355 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991025/bbcb0945/attachment.ksh From pbboy at mindspring.com Mon Oct 25 16:27:48 1999 From: pbboy at mindspring.com (pbboy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: Did the list change? References: <3.0.5.32.19991025122811.01f0ab60@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: <3814CB54.6960D3C6@mindspring.com> I tried to mail John but some mailer between here and there is bouncing all mail to threedee.com. If anyone has a phone number for him please tell him to contact the sysadmin of the machine whose IP address is 209.83.62.3 : 209.83.62.3 does not like recipient. Remote host said: 550 relaying mail to threedee.com is not allowed Giving up. --Chuck John Foust wrote: > I haven't received anything from this list in the last week or so. > As far as I know, nothing changed on my end. I've tried to send > 'subscribe' and 'which' commands to the listproc, but I get no > response. Did something change at U-Wash? > > - John From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 25 13:26:37 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: Calculator Comparisons In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.19991024211327.219f4294@earthlink.net> from "Dave Dameron" at Oct 24, 99 09:13:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2456 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991025/682d0aa8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 25 13:53:15 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: from "Mike Cheponis" at Oct 24, 99 10:46:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3271 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991025/a065afe5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 25 14:03:00 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: PCs vs. old minis and mainframes (was Re: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530) In-Reply-To: <19991025071602.20950.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Oct 25, 99 07:16:02 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 874 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991025/00835812/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 25 13:57:35 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: from "Mike Cheponis" at Oct 24, 99 11:38:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 889 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991025/be8fbce0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 25 14:07:01 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: IBM 5155 Anyone have one? In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Oct 25, 99 00:56:28 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 679 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991025/fd1831d8/attachment.ksh From dave.clark at GLADALLOVER.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 25 16:45:36 1999 From: dave.clark at GLADALLOVER.demon.co.uk (dave clark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: Did the list change? In-Reply-To: <3814CB54.6960D3C6@mindspring.com> References: <3.0.5.32.19991025122811.01f0ab60@vpwisfirewall> <3814CB54.6960D3C6@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Is this of any help?? Dave [ Section: 1/1 File: trace002.log UUencoded by: Turnpike Version 4.01 ] sum -r/size 2986/13435 section (from "begin" to "end") sum -r/size 4943/9728 entire input file In message <3814CB54.6960D3C6@mindspring.com>, pbboy writes > >I tried to mail John but some mailer between here and there is bouncing >all >mail to threedee.com. If anyone has a phone number for him please tell >him >to contact the sysadmin of the machine whose IP address is 209.83.62.3 > > : > 209.83.62.3 does not like recipient. > Remote host said: 550 relaying mail to threedee.com is not allowed > Giving up. > >--Chuck > > > >John Foust wrote: > >> I haven't received anything from this list in the last week or so. >> As far as I know, nothing changed on my end. I've tried to send >> 'subscribe' and 'which' commands to the listproc, but I get no >> response. Did something change at U-Wash? >> >> - John > -- dave clark From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 25 15:13:14 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? In-Reply-To: <80256815.00568581.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@pgen.com" at Oct 25, 99 04:41:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1459 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991025/5139a74d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 25 15:57:39 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <19991025180352.24540.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Oct 25, 99 06:03:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2310 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991025/8fddc154/attachment.ksh From pbboy at mindspring.com Mon Oct 25 16:51:06 1999 From: pbboy at mindspring.com (pbboy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: Did the list change? References: <3.0.5.32.19991025122811.01f0ab60@vpwisfirewall> <3814CB54.6960D3C6@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <3814D0CA.237FC37E@mindspring.com> oops..tried to forward that to him from here. sent it again. it hasen't bounced yet... pbboy wrote: > I tried to mail John but some mailer between here and there is bouncing > all > mail to threedee.com. If anyone has a phone number for him please tell > him > to contact the sysadmin of the machine whose IP address is 209.83.62.3 > > : > 209.83.62.3 does not like recipient. > Remote host said: 550 relaying mail to threedee.com is not allowed > Giving up. > > --Chuck > > John Foust wrote: > > > I haven't received anything from this list in the last week or so. > > As far as I know, nothing changed on my end. I've tried to send > > 'subscribe' and 'which' commands to the listproc, but I get no > > response. Did something change at U-Wash? > > > > - John From lemay at cs.umn.edu Mon Oct 25 17:35:20 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: Help - Is there a paper tape BASIC for a PDP 8/S In-Reply-To: <001d01bf1dc2$de409aa0$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> from daniel at "Oct 23, 1999 09:55:36 pm" Message-ID: <199910252235.WAA25484@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > > I am hoping to find BASIC (not FOCAL) for the PDP 8 line. I can't run OS/8 > so I am hoping to find a BASIC that will run on my 8/S in binary form. Why cant you run OS/8, just because of a lack of enough core memory? -Lawrence LeMay > > A) Does this even exist? > B) Is it on the Web? > > Thanks, this 8/S is proving to be lots of fun. > > BTW: I just got this message on my PDP tonight: > > "Congratulations!! You have successfully loaded 'FOCAL' on a PDP 8/S > computer." > > Yippee! > > john > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Oct 25 17:12:02 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: XXDP help needed In-Reply-To: Bill Pechter "Re: XXDP help needed" (Oct 25, 15:59) References: <199910251959.PAA22432@pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <9910252312.ZM4138@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 25, 15:59, Bill Pechter wrote: > Is my memory of the breakdown of the diags correct? > > +--> Diag software > | +--> Second diag > | | > ZRQBC1 > | | > | +-->Revision C patch level 1 > +--RQDX? disk controller (does the R stand for Rotating Memory Here?) Very close. The first character is the processor type it's intended for, the next two are the device mnemonic (not always the same as the mnemonics used elsewhere, alas), then diagnostic "number" (you know what I mean :-)) and then revision and patch level, as you said. I can't help with the specifics of most diagnostics (my microfiche set is neither complete nor very accessible at the moment -- wasn't most of that stuff on-line inside DEC once? What became of STARS and TIMA?) but you might find the general stuff at http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/XXDP.ps helpful (there's a .pdf equivalent there too, thanks to the assistance of another list member). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Oct 25 16:27:17 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: Reliable PCBs at home In-Reply-To: Marvin "Reliable PCBs at home" (Oct 24, 21:48) References: <000801bf1e81$b84976e0$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> <3813E11D.B493F4FF@rain.org> Message-ID: <9910252227.ZM4114@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 24, 21:48, Marvin wrote: > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Has any of you ever encountered an approach to this that could be managed in > > the home environment with equipment costing, nominally, less that a k-buck > > or two and achieving nominally 10-mil traces with 8-10 mil separation or > > anything close to that? How about a dry-film solder mask? > Doing the process at home can be done with a minimum of equipment if service > shops are used for parts of the process. A small copper plating tank, > tin-lead tank, and peroxide-sulfuric etchant along with fusing oil and flux > can be set up at home for probably a couple hundred dollars. To set up a > fairly complete shop including drilling and imaging would probably cost > between 2K and 3K. This would provide the capabilities of producing > reasonably high quality boards. Oh, did I forget to mention getting the > experience to know how to do it :)? I've never done the full process Marvin describes at home, but there's a commercial website that has quite a lot of useful information. Eniough to encourag me to try it "one day": http://www.thinktink.com/ (If you're like me, and keep that Java(script) stuff turned off, turn it on for this site, as the menus need it). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From Innfogra at aol.com Mon Oct 25 18:09:48 1999 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: what is a VXT 2000+ Message-ID: <0.4702e68f.25463d3c@aol.com> What is a VXT 2000+? It has 18 meg or ram. It comes up with VXT V1.5 followed by 08-00-2B-37-70-4A. The configuration indicates that it has 8 plane Low Res 4 Megpixel FB which I assume is the graphics configuration. It originally came with a DEC VRC 16-HA Low emission monitor. My scrapper who has this feels the monitor is worth $150. If anyone interested in this, with or without the monitor, contact me directly. He also got in a couple of MVIIs that are available. I will get the configuration next week Paxton. From dogas at leading.net Mon Oct 25 17:47:05 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: Looking for Message-ID: <01bf1f3a$dc322020$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> Anyone got an EXORtape orphan that you'd like to reunite with its family? Thanks - Miike: dogas@leading.net From daniel at internet.look.ca Mon Oct 25 18:20:01 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: Help - Is there a paper tape BASIC for a PDP 8/S Message-ID: <009c01bf1f3f$76dda0a0$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> -----Original Message----- From: Lawrence LeMay To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, October 25, 1999 6:36 PM Subject: Re: Help - Is there a paper tape BASIC for a PDP 8/S >> >> I am hoping to find BASIC (not FOCAL) for the PDP 8 line. I can't run OS/8 >> so I am hoping to find a BASIC that will run on my 8/S in binary form. > >Why cant you run OS/8, just because of a lack of enough core memory? 4k core only. #1) I have no disk. #2) I did not think OS/8 was compatible with the Straight 8/ 8/s instruction set incompatibilities. If it is compatible then I will actively seek a DF32 and interface. > >-Lawrence LeMay > >> >> A) Does this even exist? >> B) Is it on the Web? >> >> Thanks, this 8/S is proving to be lots of fun. >> >> BTW: I just got this message on my PDP tonight: >> >> "Congratulations!! You have successfully loaded 'FOCAL' on a PDP 8/S >> computer." >> >> Yippee! >> >> john >> >> > From daniel at internet.look.ca Mon Oct 25 18:26:27 1999 From: daniel at internet.look.ca (daniel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: 4K paper tape Basic for PDP 8 - I found out it does exist. Message-ID: <00aa01bf1f40$5c980d60$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> DEC released a 4K core paper tape basic for the edusystem. Does anyone have this basic program and can I get a copy of it or trade a copy for something? From cfandt at netsync.net Mon Oct 25 18:34:42 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:08 2005 Subject: Did the list change? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991025112949.040b8760@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> References: <3.0.5.32.19991025122811.01f0ab60@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: <4.1.19991025192340.00ac88d0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 11:31 AM 10/25/99 -0700, Chuck McManis said something like: >I tried to mail John but some mailer between here and there is bouncing all I sent an email to him with a q regarding his problem and he replied back. Some some mail is getting through. (Isn't this a relief to read instead of the tedious thread that's just been unraveling? :-) Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Mon Oct 25 18:48:09 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: Still Looking for DEC Card Reader, CR11 or CM11 Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991025164809.03086b04@ferrari.sfu.ca> Hi All: I'm still in the market for either of these DEC table top punched card readers. If you know of one that's available, please let me know via direct email. Thanks, Kevin --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From mac at Wireless.Com Mon Oct 25 19:02:35 1999 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <38148E55.96470810@cornell.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Carlos Murillo-Sanchez wrote: >Mike: you wanted numbers. > >The 11/780 is one machine on which I do have a few recently acquired >docs. In page 2-2 of the 1977-78 VAX 11/780 architecture handbook there >is a nice figure of the cpu and different interconnects. Basically, the >cpu, main memory and I/O subsystems were tied to the Synchronous >Backplane Interconnect (SBI), 13.3 MB/s, cycling at 200ns. Great! Numbers! Thanks, Carlos. OK, SBI = 106 Mbits/sec. For comparison, the 486's Main Bus runs at 848 Mbits/sec [1]. That's 8 times as fast as the 11/780 SBI bus. >The console >was attached to the CPU directly thorugh a separate channel. Any device >could request control of the SBI and control was granted using a priority >scheme. The I/O subsystem could hold one unibus adaptor (1.5 MB/s) and >up to four massbus adaptors (2MB/s each). Unibus = 12 Mb/s (Coincidentally, USB is -also- 12 Mb/s ...) Massbuss = 16 Mb/s each. (For a rough comparison, the 64-bit 66 MHz PCI bus is over 4 Gbits/sec; so that particular modern PC bus has 57 times more bandwidth than a Unibus and four Massbus adaptors, combined!) >The cpu had 8KB of two-way >set-associative write-through cache (and the instruction set allowed for >generation of very compact code). The cache monitored I/O <=main memory >transfers and updated accordingly. The 486 also has 8K of cache, and is approximately 30 times as fast as the 11/780 running the Dhrystone 2.1 benchmark. >Given this architecture, I think that there is reason to assume that an >11/780 might service 100 users over serial lines faster than any 486-66 >PC . Just think of the interrupt service overhead of 100 users typing >simultaneously, even with 16 byte FIFO buffers. Well, let's see. The ISA16 bus runs at 8.33 MHz, 4 clocks, 16 bits per cycle. That's only 33.3 Mb/s, comparable to a Unibus plus a Massbus. (And, of course, most 486dx2/66 machines used at least an EISA bus [2], running 32 bits at 8.33 MHz x two clock edges = 533 Mbits/sec.) So if we are able to plug multiport intelligent serial cards into our EISA bus, and to use a standard EISA SCSI controller, the numbers say that the dx2/66 would crush the 11/780 by a factor of at least 5 (which is 533 Mb/s / 106 Mb/s) or perhaps as much as 30, depending on the task. >By the way, this little book is great reading... It really puts things >in perspective to see the great 11/780 implementation 22 years ago... I remember the book well; I wish I still had my copy! >Carlos. Thanks again, -Mike [1] Intel i486 Microprocessor Manual, Page 1. Doc #240440-002 November 1989 [2] Indispensable PC Hardware Book, 3rd edition, p. 552 From mac at Wireless.Com Mon Oct 25 19:07:19 1999 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Promise you won't do Drystone tests on the PDP-1... Actually, I'm working with a group to restore a 1620, and, yes, you know, I -was- thinking about writing a C compiler for the 1620, and then, well, you can imagine which piece of code I'd try(!). ;-) -Mike p.s. In fact, we're all gonna be happy if we can get the -1 to play Spacewars! From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Oct 25 19:26:52 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: Definition of Obsolete... (was: Re: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: References: <19991025051915Z433656-8507+271@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991025202652.00965e00@127.0.0.1> Rumor has it that Mike Cheponis may have mentioned these words: >Sure, if the old stuff works, why change? (Even if it -is- obsolete!) >It does indeed make sense. I can honestly say that is where you and I differ greatly: the definition of "obsolete." My CoCo3 is *not* obsolete. It plays Rogue wonderfully (the PC port sucked canal water), keeps track of my coin collection (Dynacalc is a wonderful thing) and other tasks. My Atari ST isn't obsolete, either. I have a geneology program that works wonderfully, and I use it to print mailing lists - you don't need a PentiumIII to print mailing labels on a 24-pin... (Why don't I use my 15-year-old Epson LX-80? It didn't have tractor-feed... :-( ) Neither has a hard drive... they don't need one for the tasks which I find useful on them. Web browsing on either? I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid. ;-) They weren't designed for that, no more than a Hyundai was designed to pull a 32-foot travel trailer... [[BTW, just to clear things up - in a previous post you mentioned "and why more and more L2 cache is onboad the PIII modules." Hate to tell you this, but the PII & PIII's *never* changed their cache size or (relative) speed. 512K Level2 Cache, running at 1/2 clock speed of the processor. The Xeon processors (both PII & PIII versions) come in 512K, 1M & 2M cache sizes that run at the processor clock speed.]] Obviously, my definition is: If it still works, it's not obsolete. Just my $0.0000000000002 (USD), Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From mac at Wireless.Com Mon Oct 25 19:45:18 1999 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: Definition of Obsolete... (was: Re: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19991025202652.00965e00@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Mike Cheponis may have mentioned these words: >>Sure, if the old stuff works, why change? (Even if it -is- obsolete!) >>It does indeed make sense. > I can honestly say that is where you and I differ greatly: the definition > of "obsolete." My dictionary's first definition says "No longer in use OR in fashion". Clearly, CoCos are no longer "in fashion". PCs and Macs are "in fashion". > My CoCo3 is *not* obsolete. It plays Rogue wonderfully (the PC port sucked Perhaps you are using the 2nd definition of "Obsolete": No longer used or useful, because of outmoded design or construction, or because of hard ware, like an obsolete locomotive. So, in the end, I think we agree. It's just English ambiguity nailing us. > [[BTW, just to clear things up - in a previous post you mentioned "and why > more and more L2 cache is onboard the PIII modules." Hate to tell you this, > but the PII & PIII's *never* changed their cache size or (relative) speed. > 512K Level2 Cache, running at 1/2 clock speed of the processor. The Xeon > processors (both PII & PIII versions) come in 512K, 1M & 2M cache sizes > that run at the processor clock speed.]] Clearly, I meant the Xeon, and I thought that was clear from context. I'll be more specific next time. > Just my $0.0000000000002 (USD), > Roger "Merch" Merchberger -mac From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Oct 25 19:58:49 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: Definition of Obsolete... (was: Re: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 Message-ID: <991025205849.23600ae7@trailing-edge.com> >>Sure, if the old stuff works, why change? (Even if it -is- obsolete!) >>It does indeed make sense. >I can honestly say that is where you and I differ greatly: the definition >of "obsolete." One of my all-time favorite .sig lines (I forget whose it was) said: " Don't think of it as a `new' computer, think of it as `obsolete-ready' " While collectors may argue about "obsolete" - a term, that to my ears, smacks of PC-clone salesman-speak - in the world of business and industrial computing, platforms that are old and well-established are called "legacy systems". It's generally acknowledged that if a system does its job well and reliably, it is "legacy"; the mark of a non-legacy system is that it is under constant development, crashes often, and doesn't fill its design specs. Of course, here I'm talking about more than hardware, and more than hardware+software, but how a system fits into the real world and performs a useful function. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Oct 25 20:07:25 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: what is a VXT 2000+ In-Reply-To: <0.4702e68f.25463d3c@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991025210725.009741c0@127.0.0.1> Rumor has it that Innfogra@aol.com may have mentioned these words: >What is a VXT 2000+? Haven't a clue. ;-) > It has 18 meg or ram. It comes up with VXT V1.5 followed >by 08-00-2B-37-70-4A. The configuration indicates that it has 8 plane Low Res >4 Megpixel FB which I assume is the graphics configuration. The 08-00-2B-37-70-4A dang-shure looks like an Ethernet hardware address. There was a place on the Web somewhere (haven't been there in aeons) that you could use to look up the ethernet address to see who originally made the hardware (the first 1 or 2 parts of the address were a type of manufacturer ID). >It originally came with a DEC VRC 16-HA Low emission monitor. My scrapper who >has this feels the monitor is worth $150. If anyone interested in this, with >or without the monitor, contact me directly. What size/config is the monitor? If it's big, high refresh & color, that it might in fact be worth about that much... tough to say. >He also got in a couple of MVIIs that are available. I will get the >configuration next week Where are you located, for shipping purposes? Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Oct 25 20:16:06 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: what is a VXT 2000+ Message-ID: <991025211606.23600ae7@trailing-edge.com> >What is a VXT 2000+? It's an X-terminal. > It has 18 meg or ram. It comes up with VXT V1.5 followed >by 08-00-2B-37-70-4A. The configuration indicates that it has 8 plane Low Res >4 Megpixel FB which I assume is the graphics configuration. "08-00-2B-37-70-4A" is the hardware Ethernet address. The VXT 2000+ loads its software over the Ethernet at power on. To quote from the VXT release notes: VXT software is installed on a load host and downloaded into the VXT 2000[+], VXT 2000, or VT1300 X terminal; the VXT software license applies to the X terminal on which the software is executed, not to the host CPUs in the network. The release notes then go on to specify how to install the software on the following different systems - I imagine other network-capable systems are easily done as well: o VXT Software on InfoServer Systems o VXT Software on OpenVMS Systems o VXT Software on DEC OSF/1 AXP Systems o VXT Software on ULTRIX Systems o VXT Software on SunOS Systems o VXT Software on HP-UX Systems o VXT Software on IBM AIX Systems o VXT Software on SCO ODT Systems The software installation kit now appears on the OpenVMS Freeware CD-ROM set, and you can grab it over the net from: ftp://openvms.digital.com/vxt/ -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Oct 25 20:16:56 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: what is a VXT 2000+ Message-ID: <991025211656.23600ae7@trailing-edge.com> Whoops, change that last URL I gave (for the VXT software) to ftp://ftp.openvms.digital.com/vxt/ -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Oct 25 20:24:44 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: what is a VXT 2000+ In-Reply-To: <0.4702e68f.25463d3c@aol.com> Message-ID: >What is a VXT 2000+? It has 18 meg or ram. It comes up with VXT V1.5 followed >by 08-00-2B-37-70-4A. The configuration indicates that it has 8 plane Low Res >4 Megpixel FB which I assume is the graphics configuration. As I recall it's a X-Terminal. Also, IIRC, it's basically a VAXstation that won't run VMS and doesn't have a disk. I'm sure someone will correct me. >It originally came with a DEC VRC 16-HA Low emission monitor. My scrapper who >has this feels the monitor is worth $150. If anyone interested in this, with >or without the monitor, contact me directly. Right... So, how hard did you laugh at him? Does he realize it's a fixed freq monitor? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From thompson at mail.athenet.net Tue Oct 26 20:07:47 1999 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: Definition of Obsolete... (was: Re: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <991025205849.23600ae7@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: The concept of "legacy" is a one of the worst cases of MICROSO~1 marketing induced management speak out there: the only kind of system which "legacy" does not seem to cover is anything running NT. Recently I have seen a laughable example of a DOS-based telephone call processing system glossed up with a GUI on a windows front end which was just as out dated and difficult to use as the DOS version since it was obviously backed by the same code. Various "windows" even had the same words misspelled as their DOS counterparts and took the same obtuse search syntax. However, this was not "legacy" in the minds of mgt since it ran on NT. Paul (catalyst for the recent VAX hysteria) On Mon, 25 Oct 1999 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > are called "legacy systems". It's generally acknowledged that if a > system does its job well and reliably, it is "legacy"; the mark of a > non-legacy system is that it is under constant development, crashes often, > and doesn't fill its design specs. From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Oct 25 20:31:41 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: EISA? (Was: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: References: <38148E55.96470810@cornell.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991025213141.00986990@127.0.0.1> Rumor has it that Mike Cheponis may have mentioned these words: >(And, of course, most 486dx2/66 machines used at least an EISA bus [2], > running 32 bits at 8.33 MHz x two clock edges = 533 Mbits/sec.) [snip] >[2] Indispensable PC Hardware Book, 3rd edition, p. 552 [for reference inclusion] "Most" 486DX2/66's used EISA??? What's your definition of most? That book of yours has a rather skewed idea of what "most" means. Now, most "Server" 486's did have EISA AFAIK, but the server machines were an _extremely_ small portion of the total number of machines in the real world. (I actually had use of a retired Dell 486DX266 EISA low-end server. [Low-end being defined as: Adaptec 1542 ISA SCSI interface, non-ECC memory...] ) Certainly a nice machine, but by no means the most feature-filled server Dell produced at the time. The company I worked for at the time had roughly 400-500 486's deployed, with 75-100 being DX33 or faster. I think 3 machines there had EISA, and were all servers - not for use as a single-user machine until replaced by a faster server. BTW, those machines worked fairly well servicing around 100 users, but only 10-15% were at their desks at any one time - the rest of the machines were logged in but idle. Of course, with a 400 user 10Mbit (non-switched) ethernet network & 4 of these servers (the 4th was a PCI P60), by the time the servers started doing real work & were slowing down, ethernet collisions pretty much ground everything to a halt. Two more PCI P60 servers replaced the 3 EISA 486's, and my employer allowed me to take one home to work on - to replace the 4Mbyte 386SX16 I was running AutoCad 12 on - and doing renders. Let's just say that 486 was an extreme improvement. ;-) (Oh, and the servers were just file-sharing servers running Netware 3.11, for reference...) Again, just my $0.02 (CDN, this time) and not worth that... Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Oct 25 20:36:45 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: help id'ing board In-Reply-To: <3814AB02.F9683BB9@cornell.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991025213645.009835f0@127.0.0.1> Rumor has it that Carlos Murillo-Sanchez may have mentioned these words: >manufacturer: Recognition Concepts Inc., assy. # 100220, > then in the back: 100221 fab rev A > The only external > connector is a subminiature rf-style gold-plated connector, close > to this analog section, and, most important, Any chance that it might be a type of speech recognition board? I know there were vox systems for the TRS-80 Model 1, so there's been an (admittedly small) market for that type of hardware for years... maybe the connector is for a microphone, and the A-D converters might make sense here... Just a thought, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From lemay at cs.umn.edu Mon Oct 25 21:31:55 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: Beautiful U day Message-ID: <199910260231.CAA25919@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Well, it looks like the University of Minnesota is having another beautiful U day... this is something the latest U president came up with a few years ago, basically instead of departments on campus having to pay to dispose of old and obsolete equipment, on a Beautiful U day, they put out tons of bins all over campus, and the departments can toss in all the old computers and such they want, and the university will pay the disposal fees (as opposed to the individual departments paying). Anyways, this means there may be jems appearing soon. For example, I just saw a HP 85 out in the hallway, I assume someone is jumping the gun on cleaning their areas... Is anyone dieing to have a HP 85? is there anything else I should be looking for? In the past few years, I usualy have seen at least one Apple ][+, IBM PS/2's, etc. Unfortunately, I'm severely strapped for space, so anything i grab, i would have to dispose of fairly soon. Obviously, if i see anything extremely rare i will grab it, but I dont know about stuff like the HP 85, or calculators, etc. So, I guess i'll just have to see whats available, grab it, and then post it to the list quickly. For those near the U of Minnesota Minneapolis campus, beautiful U day is this Wednesday. I imagine the como recycling lot will fill up with stuff very soon now (thats where I found my PDP 8/e 2 weeks ago). Anyways, just a heads up for those in or near minneapolis, and I guess an offer to trade a HP 85 (i'll ask if they are tossing it tomorrow, i already informed my janitor friends in that area that i want it). -Lawrence LeMay From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Oct 25 21:36:07 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: Beautiful U day Message-ID: <0.46450c47.25466d97@aol.com> In a message dated 10/25/99 9:32:34 PM US Eastern Standard Time, lemay@cs.umn.edu writes: > Well, it looks like the University of Minnesota is having another > beautiful U day... this is something the latest U president came up with > a few years ago, basically instead of departments on campus having to > pay to dispose of old and obsolete equipment, on a Beautiful U day, they > put out tons of bins all over campus, and the departments can toss in all > the old computers and such they want, and the university will pay the > disposal fees (as opposed to the individual departments paying). > > Anyways, this means there may be jems appearing soon. For example, > I just saw a HP 85 out in the hallway, I assume someone is jumping > the gun on cleaning their areas... Is anyone dieing to have a HP 85? > is there anything else I should be looking for? In the past few years, > I usualy have seen at least one Apple ][+, IBM PS/2's, etc. > sure would be nice to have all the memory simms out the PS/2s that get thrown out... Unfortunately, they always seem to command a premium price. if you can't grab entire machines, even cards or memory or even hard drives would be worth getting. From ktco at www.tradingking.com Tue Oct 26 11:38:31 1999 From: ktco at www.tradingking.com (Soppia Sung) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: Stamping product / Press Message-ID: <199910260237.LAA01001@power.kitel.co.kr> DAE SANG CO., LTD. TEL:+82-2-3142-6464 FAX:+82-2-338-1052 E-MAIL: ktco@tradingking.com HOMEPAGE: www.tradingking.com CONTACT:Soppia Sung To :classiccmp How are you? Are you looking for a company which has excellent skills in stamping with bronze, aluminum, steel and so on? You will be interested to hear that we have handled stamping products like terminal, housing, angle and others that are able to be stamped. We are a stamping(press) products maker in Korea searching companies that stamping products are needed. Already, we have supplied lots of stamping products for various kinds of spare parts companies for long time. The name of our company is DAESANG Co., Ltd. as one of leading stamping(press) business . We have been the first vendor of Samsung, Daewoo, Anam, Jeil Engineering, Goldstar(it is LG at present) which are reliable companies in Korea since 1982. We had a good reputation through long business in this line in Korea. We are confident that you will be quite satisfied with our services including the best price and the perfect. If you are agreeable, we should be most appreciative of your co-operation in this respect and look forward to your reply with great interest. Should you have any question or inquiry, Please do not hesitate to contact us. Wish to have a good business relationship with you in the coming future. We should appreciate your prompt reply. Best Regards, Soppia Sung/International Marketing Representative Address:180-2 DONGBO B/D 401 DONGKYO-DONG MAPO-KU SEOUL, KOREA TEL:+82-2-3142-6464 FAX:+82-2-338-1052 E-MAIL: ktco@tradingking.com HOMEPAGE: www.tradingking.com From lance at costanzo.net Mon Oct 25 21:46:49 1999 From: lance at costanzo.net (Lance Costanzo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: Beautiful U day Message-ID: <3.0.32.19991025194647.0070f544@costanzo.net> >lemay@cs.umn.edu writes: >> Well, it looks like the University of Minnesota is having another >> beautiful U day... this is something the latest U president came up with Just grab everything and anything that looks interesting. You can always dispose of it later if its not. Lance Costanzo | Speaker to Animals lance@costanzo.net | speaker@kzin.com http://www.webhighrise.com | http://www.kzin.com Website and Virtual Domain | PC Resources, Hosting starting at $5/month, | Accoutrements, no setup fees | and other oddities. From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Oct 25 22:16:24 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: Definition of Obsolete... (was: Re: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 Message-ID: <199910260316.XAA20803@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Oct 1999 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >>Sure, if the old stuff works, why change? (Even if it -is- obsolete!) > >>It does indeed make sense. > > >I can honestly say that is where you and I differ greatly: the definition > >of "obsolete." > > One of my all-time favorite .sig lines (I forget whose it was) said: > > " Don't think of it as a `new' computer, think of it as `obsolete-ready' " > > While collectors may argue about "obsolete" - a term, that to my ears, > smacks of PC-clone salesman-speak - in the world of business > and industrial computing, platforms that are old and well-established > are called "legacy systems". It's generally acknowledged that if a > system does its job well and reliably, it is "legacy"; the mark of a > non-legacy system is that it is under constant development, crashes often, > and doesn't fill its design specs. Tim, I think "legacy" is certainly kinder and gentler. It also has a certain charm about it. There is another term that the dictionery browsers might check out, and that is obsolescent - a rather more transient (and accurately descriptive) status. > Of course, here I'm talking about more than hardware, and more than > hardware+software, but how a system fits into the real world and performs > a useful function. Exactly! - don > -- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Oct 25 22:44:44 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 References: Message-ID: <00e101bf1f64$755bbbc0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Cheponis To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Monday, 25 October 1999 6:54 Subject: Re: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 > Mark Green wrote: > > > Mike Cheponis wrote: > >> Looks like the 6500 was about 13 VAX-11/780 MIPS. That would make it about > >> 2x to 3x slower than a 486DX2/66. Note also that it is 13 VUPS PER CPU. A 530 has 3 cpus. Consider this, if the pci buss can't effectively serve a single cpu to the point it is being fully utilised, what chance does it have of coping with the thruput load on a multi cpu system. The Vax can and does. IIRC, the XMI gets saturated under high workload when something like 5 or 6 cpus are fitted. > > Integer performance is a very misleading > > measure of performance when you are talking about system performance. > > My main belief is that nobody is going to keep a VAX anything running with > dozens of simultaneous users. Eh? ROFLMAO. Sorry, but it appears to me that you have not been exposed to these machines, or you would not be making this statement... > So, if a VAX is to be something close > to "useful" today, it'll be in single-user mode. In that case, Integer > performance is very important. I'll be sure and tell our Vax 6000-440 that one. It could probably use a laugh. It's currently: 1. Domain mail server (MX 5.1) (SMTP mail exchange for the Unix types) 2. POP3 server for about 400 users. (IUPOP3) 3. FTP server for the domain, including anon ftp etc. 4. Web server for the school site. (WASD) 5. HTTP Proxy server for 150+ PC's 6. Web based email access to VMS mail for users out of town etc. (WASD's Yahmail add on) 7. NFS serves it's drives to various Win9x boxes for ease of updating web sites etc.. 8. I use it to snarf files from various sources, since it's FTP never gives up. 9. It automatically mirrors parts of certain commercial sites so that software on the pc network can update automagically without 150 pc's hitting the commercial site for (for instance) virus dat file updates..... 10. I use it's telnet/ftp/lynx etc to do all sorts of other stuff. Going flat out on a good day, it probably uses about half of the cpu time available. An individual process can push 1 cpu up to 100% or close to it, but it still services other requests (like POP when there are 3 rooms full of people surfing happily) quite well. SMP on a Vax works very well, unlike the NT attempt at it.... > Now, perhaps if we were to port Apache to the VAX, and used that I/O bandwidth > on multiple DS3s, well, that's great. Too late, there is an apache port to VMS being done. I doubt if it's any easier to use/better etc than the WASD server we use, but I've never used Apache so I'll withold judgement. I just hope it's better than the Samba port. The inherently different file systems make some porting very difficult, since the equivalent services don't exist or are radically different between VMS and Unix. > > for example, all except > > the most recent PCs, there is only a single bus. This bus > > must be used for all memory transfers, graphics, I/O, etc. > > On a single user system, this is sometimes okay, but for > > multiple users forget it. Correct. > Hey, I'm not saying the original IBM PC was going to outperform the VAX 6500; > but a modern PC will crush any VAX in any application, IMHO, with equivalent > h/w attached. Not so, sorry. A PCI buss pentium would die horribly under this machines load. Even more horribly if it was running NT. For a single user environment some apps would certainly run faster, but for throughput, multi-user, multi-tasking etc, the PC architecture is not a serious player. > > Most of the VAXes had multiple > > busses, and each was dedicated to a particular function. A 6000 box (usually - I have 1 XMI only machine) has 2 busses, the XMI buss, which is rated at 100 megabytes per second thruput (no, I don't mean megaBITs) and is 64 bits wide, and the BI Buss, which is rated at 13 Megabytes per second and is (I think) 32 bits wide. You should also note this is not burst, but constant. The CI (Computer Interconnect) Buss is not really a buss in the accepted sense, but a dedicated 70Mbps network on what is essentially thick (as in semi rigid - great cable for ham radio vhf/uhf use BTW) ethernet. It's used to link/network machines in a cluster and for HSC's (Heirarchical Storage Controllers) to serve disks and tapes to all machines on the cluster, and is full duplex with redundant data paths. It 'lives' on an adapter card in the vax, and can be either an XMI or BI card, depending on the system configuration. I have examples of both... To use an automotive analogy, PC v VAX is roughly like this. PC-CAR has a Super turbo charged V12 driving a single manual gearbox stuck in first gear. The motor screams, but it can't make the car go really fast because the mechanism for transferring the power to the road wheels is broken/inefficient. VAX-CAR has a normally aspirated 6 cylinder driving a couple of variable ratio autotrans each driving separate sets of wheels, and is capable of using the full available power of the cpu(s) to push the car as fast as the engine(s) are capable of driving it. This analogy is rough in places, but you get the idea..... Hope this helps shed some light on the subject.... Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ #: 1970476 From Innfogra at aol.com Mon Oct 25 22:49:30 1999 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: what is a VXT 2000+ Message-ID: <0.7a30e2d6.25467eca@aol.com> In a message dated 10/25/99 6:27:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time, healyzh@aracnet.com writes: > Right... So, how hard did you laugh at him? Does he realize it's a fixed > freq monitor? > He resells lots of large monitors so he has a good idea of its value. He is bargainable but not arguable. He has sold many of these in the secondary market. It doesn't pay to laugh at scrappers. They like to cut the cords off machines. Paxton Portland, OR From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Oct 25 23:05:48 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <00e101bf1f64$755bbbc0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> from "Geoff Roberts" at Oct 26, 1999 01:14:44 PM Message-ID: <199910260405.WAA16367@calico.litterbox.com> *snip* > > My main belief is that nobody is going to keep a VAX anything running with > > dozens of simultaneous users. > > Eh? ROFLMAO. Sorry, but it appears to me that you have not been exposed to > these machines, or > you would not be making this statement... > > > So, if a VAX is to be something close > > to "useful" today, it'll be in single-user mode. In that case, Integer > > performance is very important. > > I'll be sure and tell our Vax 6000-440 that one. It could probably use a > laugh. *snip* No kidding. I watched our vax 4000/500 with 128 megs of ram - a grotesque amount in those days, but it could take more) pull something like 200 users running ALLIN1, an office suite, which was a monstrous system hog. The 4000/500 did it without breaking a sweat. Hell, even a microvax II with 16 megs of ram could handle 5 or 6 users using that monstrosity. Many many more if you just used normal applications. When I was at Intel our cluster of 6000/mumbles carried 400-500 users using a VERY large CAM system, several hundred data connections via tcpip, a massive database to support the CAM, etc etc. While a desktop PC may be able to smoke most vaxen for CPU performance, the PC that can stand up and do a big vax's JOB doesn't exist. Vaxen were designed for heavy continuous use. PCs were designed to be disposable. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From donm at cts.com Mon Oct 25 23:16:48 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: OT: how big would it be? Message-ID: It would be really cool if some one were able to scan and make available this data sheet for those who are unable to find it. Message-ID: Peter, I do hope your arm heals quickly. On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Peter Pachla wrote: > >....I think single-user; I run single-user machines.... > >Exactly, Mike you're looking at just ONE sector of the computer world. What is >important to you is of no consequence to a vast number of other >people/corporations who need to support multiple users and process vast >amounts of data. Which is going to be done on servers. > >....The future is single-user with vast network-accessed databases. > >RUBBISH, you're making assumptions based on your own view of the industry. In >the real world there is a need for both single user systems/workstations AND >(comparatively) large multi user installations. I don't believe it. Can you please give me some specific application that is better served by some timesharing system? >But then, of course, I think you probably realise this and are just offering >us more flame bait? I have never offered flame bait on this discussion. I have tried to understand other points of view, and to be corrected when I was wrong. I'm a little too old to be throwing out flame bait. > >BUT, I would like the Vax Lover Crowd to acknowledge that they integer > >performance of their machine is pathetic. > >More flame bait. Do you REALLY think that making assertions such as this is >going to make anyone on the other side of the fence anything but >defensive????? Peter, I have -tried my damndest- to -prove- beyond the shadow of a doubt with facts and data to support that assertion. Look, I'm getting tired of repeating this. What I'm TRYING to do is to understand the performance of old machines in terms of new machines; what I don't understand is why so many people are uptight about this. Heck, we might all even learn something, eh? >As others have already pointed out, integer performance/MIPS/drystones etc is >NOT a good indicator of overall SYSTEM performance. THAT is what is of >importance at the end of the day. BUT, BUT BUT! It -is- true that a .... is 2 to 3 times ... Right? Admit it! That's a very very simple statement of fact, why is this -sooooooo- difficult for so many on this list? >A personal example....in the mid '80s I was working in the video games >industry writing software for Atari and Commodore systems (Atari 8-bit, >C64/+4, Atari 7800). I used to assemble my programs on the Atari and transfer >them to the target system rather than use a cross assembler on a PC. Why? >Because although the PC I had access to ran a V20 at 8MHz compared to the >rather pedestrian 1.79MHz of my Atari's 6502 the PC took roughly 4 times >longer to do the same job - even with the obvious advantage of having a hard >drive. If you want the damn figures I expect I still have them somewhere >(though it would mean digging out my Atari system to access the data). I would always choose the faster system, all other things being equal, too. >It was a simple case of superior SYSTEM architecture. And, no doubt, crummy PC s/w. >Two 1MHz busses will be faster than a single 2MHz bus if they are being used >for different purposes, such as one for I/O and one for memory accesses. But my point is that one 4 MHz synchronous bus is going to be faster than two 1 MHz busses in all cases. Nonetheless, what you say is not necessarily true. For example, assume that your hypothetical case of two 1 MHz busses, and assume that the I/O bus and the Memory Bus are saturated. If these I/O and memory accesses were multiplexed onto a 2 MHz bus, then, they'd be one I/O then one memory then back to I/O etc, perfectly interleaved. Anything less that this, and the busses would not be saturated. In that case, the 2 MHz bus would equal the 1 MHz bus. Now, what about the case for random arrivals? I'm not going to fully derive this, but consider an I/O request frequency of Fio and let Fm be the frequency of memory references. If you have a system that is mostly doing computation, then Fio << Fm and therefore, on a 2 MHz bus, the memory bandwidth is > 1 MHz (which is the MAX you can get on the other bus). Similarly, if you're doing mostly I/O, then Fio >> Fm, and you can do up to two times the I/O on a single 2 MHz bus than you can do on a single 1 MHz bus. I think I have just proven that multiple busses are an architectural disaster. Failing at that, I have proved your original assertion as being incorrect. Multiple busses -are- useful to match the slow speed of I/O to the fast speed of the processor's memory system. And, clearly DEC believed in the more busses the merrier: UNIBUS (tm), MASSBUS, CI Bus, SBI Bus, etc. But if the I/O can keep up, then separate busses are a disaster. >Particularly in the case of the PC the single expansion bus is a major >bottleneck. The original design had all I/O, memory, memory refresh etc ALL >done over a single bus. You'll note that I was not trying to defend the original PC. >Although things have gotten a lot better with the introduction of MCA, EISA, >VL and PCI, separate RAM busses etc there's still a long way to go. We still >effectively have a single bus down which we're trying to shovel the majority >of our data. > >After all, at -some- point, all these busses have to get their data > >into/out of the CPU.... > >No, at some point all these busses have to get their data in/out of MEMORY. >Polled/interrupt driven I/O is at best extremely wasteful of processor >time....this is why I personally use SCSI in my PC in preference to IDE (which >makes it ALMOST usable). Peter, you'll note that I said that there are some cases where "channel-to- channel" I/O occurs, but I call that "Simulfax Shuffle Time" (after Firesign Theatre) - that is, in general, except for the special case of file copy for backup, moving data around without processing it is a logical and architecture error (or at least, inefficiency). And, data into or out of memory -eventually- must go into and out of the CPU, in general - else, there's no processing actually occurring. And I'm afraid I don't agree with the one poster that was making the case that moving data around should be considered processing, for reasons, above. > >....and it does show that there are other busses available on a > >PC, yes? (Which was my original point.) > >But with just ONE bus in the system you STILL have a bottleneck. > >It doesn't matter how many lanes you have on a single motorway, or how fast >your car is, when you have a lot of traffic on the road you still get traffic >jams and major bottlenecks at junctions and on/off ramps.... This analogy is flawed, I'm afraid. A better example is: how much lead can you deliver to a load with two guns rated 1 Mega-Bullets per Second vs one gun rated at 2 MB/Sec? Answer, of course: They produce the same amount of deposited lead on the target. Another analogy might be: I have a Racecar, a family car, a truck, and a bicycle. (Roughly SBI, CI Bus, MASSBUS, and UNIBUS). But if I had all Racecars...... > TTFN - Pete. >-- >Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. >Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) -mac From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 25 23:54:26 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19991026045426.28474.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > I don't recall an Intel app note showing the DMA 'extension' registers, > to get the 8237 to work with the 8088. Most likely Intel would have been > pushing the 8089 (even though it wasn't out in time...) Too expensive. IBM couldn't put expensive chips in it, even if they were available. So they did a quick hack to add the register. Maybe that detail isn't direct from an Intel ap note, but it's not exactly rocket science either. > The RAM timing, etc looks decidedly non-intel as well. Intel had RAM > controller chips IIRC. IBM used TTL and a delay line. Intel had a cheap DRAM controller that wasn't good enough, and a good enough one that wasn't cheap. DRAM controllers using TTL and delay lines were certainly common enough elsewhere. Again, this isn't really a sign of any ingenuity on IBM's part. Maybe every detail of the schematic wasn't pulled from Intel ap notes, but a pertty significant portion was. > The peripheral cards are not Intel at all. Nor did anyone claim they were. If the IBM engineers had designed more of the cards earlier on, they wouldn't have put such a crappy bus design, particularly with regard to the interrupt control. > > 1) The way that the 8259 interrupt controller is used: IBM botch this > > severely. > > Hmm... Well, the active high edge triggering doesn't help ;-). But that's > an Intel documented mode for the chip. In what other ways did IBM botch > this. IMHO the 8259 is used almost as Intel would have done. All of the Intel ap notes I've read recommend either active-low level sensitive, or falling-edge sensitive. Sure, you can set the bits to the other two modes, but nowhere does Intel suggest that it's a good idea. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 25 23:58:05 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: Definition of Obsolete... (was: Re: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19991025202652.00965e00@127.0.0.1> (message from Roger Merchberger on Mon, 25 Oct 1999 20:26:52 -0400) References: <19991025051915Z433656-8507+271@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> <3.0.1.32.19991025202652.00965e00@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <19991026045805.28514.qmail@brouhaha.com> Roger Merchberger wrote: > My CoCo3 is *not* obsolete. It plays Rogue wonderfully (the PC port sucked > canal water), keeps track of my coin collection (Dynacalc is a wonderful > thing) and other tasks. Strange. My CoCo 3 still plays games nicely, and still runs OS9 and does other cool stuff. But it *is* obsolete. So are my PDP-8s and PDP-11s, for that matter. Is there some emotional connotation to the word "obsolete" that I don't understand? From mac at Wireless.Com Tue Oct 26 00:18:15 1999 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <199910251736.KAA16243@shell2.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Zane H. Healy wrote: > See http://anacin.nsc.vcu.edu/~jim/mvax/vax-perf.html for a full list which Thanks, that's a lovely resource! > ---- Mariah chip series(1991) - Decimal SID = 301989888--------+------------ > 12 | 2 | 1202|13-58 | XBCD | VAX 6000 model 510-560 |Calypso/XMP > > So, the VAX 6000 in question is somewhere between 13-58 times as fast as a > VAX 11/780. Zane, if you know, how can a single processor have a 4.5 to 1 ratio on performance? The DEC document at http://www.digital.com/timeline/1990-4.htm says the 6500 was 13x a 780. If so, then if people were thinking of a 58 MIPS 6500, this -certainly- explains the performance difference. Heck, a 58 MIPS 6500 is even faster than a 486DX4/100 !!! > Personally I'd LOVE to have a fully loaded VAXstation 4000/90A (one of these > days I need to get some RAM for my VS4000/90). I find that for a single > user system a VAX in the 2-3 VUP's range is quite nice. Something in the > 30+ VUP's range has got to be Awsome :^) Of course if I do ever get a > VS4000 working it will be in the cluster with my AlphaStation 500/333 and > various lesser systems :^) Yes, I realize that the AS500 is far faster than > any of the VAXen I've got. You know, I'd love to experience something like a 6500 or some other fast vax. It' be fun to "feel" it compared with modern junk. Tnx again, nice pointer. -mac From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Oct 26 00:43:25 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: Quiz time! Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19991025224325.06a1ae80@agora.rdrop.com> Anyone up for a little mind bender? We begin with the images below: http://www.computergarage.org/~jwilling/P0870.JPG http://www.computergarage.org/~jwilling/P0871.JPG http://www.computergarage.org/~jwilling/P0872.JPG http://www.computergarage.org/~jwilling/P0873a.JPG One official 'no prize' to the first person who can identify these items. (or, perhaps a real prize... You never know) --- Some Clues: These artifacts date from early 1962 (when they were in production - probably designed sometime in 1960-1961) These are dedicated units, with a hard-wired program (using a diode logic matrix contained in the larger unit but not visible in these images) The large chassis in the first two images is the central 'computer'. This unit could service up to ten machines that the smaller chassis in the second pair of images were connected to. (more or less on a FIFO on-demand time-shared basis) The smaller unit gathers data from a machine for processing by the larger unit, and once a solution has been determined, the larger unit relays (no pun intended) the information back to the requesting smaller unit which latches the solution data for display along with the original input data on a visual readout device which is part of the machine. These were a production item, in fairly common use and their results could be seen on public display nearly anywhere around the country (and to some extent the world) where they were in use. Collectively, the units were known as the "' ' Computer" and were considered an add-on or enhancement to the original machine with which they were used. No direct (or manual) input from the 'user' was required in the normal use of this computer. --- The game ends with the first correct solution or on 01-November-1999 (whichever comes first) --- The images are un-retouched, except for image P0873a where part of the ID plate that would give away the answer has been obscured. And, if anyone really thinks it will help I will add some shots of the inside of the chassis in a day or so... LOTS of wires and stuff! Have at you! -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From spc at armigeron.com Tue Oct 26 00:43:19 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: from "Mike Cheponis" at Oct 25, 99 10:08:21 pm Message-ID: <199910260543.BAA18660@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3433 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991026/c21d82fc/attachment.ksh From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Oct 26 01:00:23 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: References: <000001bf1f0c$a9ae3c20$cf11883e@proteus> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991026020023.00932950@127.0.0.1> Rumor has it that Mike Cheponis may have mentioned these words: >Peter, I do hope your arm heals quickly. >A better example is: how much lead can you deliver to a load with two guns >rated 1 Mega-Bullets per Second vs one gun rated at 2 MB/Sec? >Answer, of course: They produce the same amount of deposited lead on the >target. Now, let me use your analogy to prove that multiple independent busses are better than one single bus: Let's say in each of your cases, 1 of the weapons jams exactly halfway thru it's job... How much lead is delivered in each case? (1) 2MBullets/Sec: 1 Million bullets. (2) 1MBullets/Sec: 1.5 Million bullets. The multiple bus structure delivered more bullets with 1 bus still ready for work, whereas the single bus structure's work ground to a halt waiting for operator intervention. I hope to say that this is what others and myself have tried to convey. Hope this helps clear up my point, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Oct 26 01:09:03 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: List spammer traced Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991025230903.009b6620@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Our latest list spammer has been traced, located, and formally scorched. I -love- sending spammer flames from a my-deja account... it's blocked to all incoming E-mail (accepts outgoing only), so anything a spammer sends just bounces right back at them. Besides the 200 degree C flame to the spammer in question, politely formal complaints were filed with their ISPs. Granted, I can't recall ever getting a response from a Korean or Chinese ISP that they toasted a spammer themselves, but there's always a first time. I'll advise if I get any type of valid response. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Oct 26 01:13:21 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: References: <199910251736.KAA16243@shell2.aracnet.com> Message-ID: >On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> See http://anacin.nsc.vcu.edu/~jim/mvax/vax-perf.html for a full list which > >Thanks, that's a lovely resource! > >> ---- Mariah chip series(1991) - Decimal SID = 301989888--------+------------ >> 12 | 2 | 1202|13-58 | XBCD | VAX 6000 model 510-560 >>|Calypso/XMP >> >> So, the VAX 6000 in question is somewhere between 13-58 times as fast as a >> VAX 11/780. > >Zane, if you know, how can a single processor have a 4.5 to 1 ratio on >performance? The DEC document at http://www.digital.com/timeline/1990-4.htm >says the 6500 was 13x a 780. OK I think you're refering to the 13-58 number above. I believe that refers to a 6000/510 (single processor) running at 13 VUPs, up to a 6000/560 (six processor) running at 58 VUPS. So the system in question should be ~35 VUPS if I figure correctly. >If so, then if people were thinking of a 58 MIPS 6500, this -certainly- >explains the performance difference. Heck, a 58 MIPS 6500 is even faster >than a 486DX4/100 !!! BUT, it's NOT MIPS, it is VUPS. I don't have info on what all VUPs measures but IIRC, it's more than just processor speed. To make matters worse, the baseline for VUPS, SPECint92, and SPECfp92 is the VAX-11/780, and as such a VAX-11/780 has a score of 1.0 on all three of those tests. Of course the only SPECint/fp92 tables I can come up with don't list many VAXen. It does list the 6000/510 though at ??? SPECint92, and 13.3 SPECfp92. Trying to compare benchmarks is a real headache, you can get some machines under one type of benchmark, and some more under another type, etc. While there is a little overlap, there isn't enough. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jpl15 at netcom.com Tue Oct 26 01:15:20 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: Quiz time! In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19991025224325.06a1ae80@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: Okay... at first it looked to me like something from a fairly complex vending machine, until I saw the AMF plate. Could this be part (or all) of the brains of an automatic bowling-lane pin setter and scoring counter? Just guessing. Cheers John From mac at Wireless.Com Tue Oct 26 01:20:18 1999 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <199910260543.BAA18660@armigeron.com> Message-ID: The Great Initialed One (spc) states: >Mike Cheponis sez: >> >>What I'm TRYING to do is to understand the performance of old machines >>in terms of new machines; what I don't understand is why so many people >>are uptight about this. Heck, we might all even learn something, eh? > > Why exactly? Why? Exactly? Well, I want to know just how "powerful" these machines really were. One way to do that is to actually work on them, and another way is to compare them to machines that I understand. For me, it helps put these machines in perspective. You know, it's funny, I just made this (what seemed to me obvious) observation about the Dhrystone 2.1 performance, figuring that other people would be pleased to have some anchor on performance they (like I) could relate to. But, instead, I've had to change my Asbestos Suit here several times! ;-) >>it! That's a very very simple statement of fact, why is this -sooooooo- >>difficult for so many on this list? > > I don't think it's difficult. Yes, a Pentium is X times faster than a VAX >in integer math. But what I'm curious is to why is that important? Because I develop software. I Edit (Integer), Compile (and an optimizing compiler really grinds away in core, err, memory), and Run (usually integer). Since that's what I do, that's what I want a system to do -well-. >Yes >siree, many's the time I wanted my computer to nothing but adding huge lists >of integers as fast as possible. The more the better. I don't actually >care about anything else than adding lists of integers. Do I sense a wee bit of sarcasm here? ;-/ >>Peter, you'll note that I said that there are some cases where "channel-to- >>channel" I/O occurs, but I call that "Simulfax Shuffle Time" (after >>Firesign Theatre) - that is, in general, except for the special case of >>file copy for backup, moving data around without processing it is a logical >>and architecture error (or at least, inefficiency). > > Please define what you mean by ``processing''. I can have the Amiga load >data off the floppy into memory, then have it output that data to the sound >chips, all without the data going through the CPU. I can have the Amiga >load data off the floppy into memory and have it displayed and moved about >with having it go through the CPU. I can BLT bits around, too. But it doesn't help me compile data, or to compute Viterbi syndromes of data, or perform some signal processing on some data, etc... "Processing" means it goes through the central "Processing" unit, or indeed, through some "channel processor" that modifies data in some way, or at least uses data to compute some other quantity. Some processor has to comb over the memory. > In fact, some high end [Internet] core routers don't even ``process'' the >packets that they route. Or rather, the CPU in such routers rarely, if >ever, ``process'' such packets. Data comes in one side, goes out the other >in a more or less ``channel to channel I/O'' process. The important point is "more or less" AND the whole -point- of routers is that they are, to the extent possible, simulfax shuffle devices. But if they were -pure- simulfax shufflers, then they'd be replaced with a piece of wire. Those routers are re-wrapping the IP when they send it out another port, decrementing the TTL field, re-computing the IP checksum, and the low-level (link layer) wrapper. Sure, much of this is h/w assisted. (And, as I've said, s/w is just h/w that hasn't settled down yet...) But if you're going to play semantic games with me, for example, saying that the channel processors are NOT processors, then, fine. But they are, indeed, processors. So saying that channel processors are just simulfax shufflers is cheating (since they are processors). But it's just a definition. Some say simulfax shuffling is processing; OK, that's fine, as long as we define terms. (You conveniently clipped my proof why one bus is often better than two, but what the heck - you must have agreed with me on that! 8-) ) > Like all analogies applied to computers, even this one is misleading. >Yes, even though the single 2MB/sec gun can deliver the same amount of lead >as two 1MB/sec guns, with two guns I can have better targeting, or have more >of a spread. I don't see the relevance here with your distinction; can you please elaborate? > -spc (Sure, I can have the CPU read every byte off the harddrive (IDE) > AND then process it, but I still get better through put by having > the hardware read every byte off the harddrive (most SCSI cards) > and then process it ... ) I like SCSI, too. -mac From mac at Wireless.Com Tue Oct 26 01:29:05 1999 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19991026020023.00932950@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Oct 1999, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Mike Cheponis: > > >A better example is: how much lead can you deliver to a load with two guns > >rated 1 Mega-Bullets per Second vs one gun rated at 2 MB/Sec? > >Answer, of course: They produce the same amount of deposited lead on the > >target. > Now, let me use your analogy to prove that multiple independent busses are > better than one single bus: > > Let's say in each of your cases, 1 of the weapons jams exactly halfway thru > it's job... How much lead is delivered in each case? > > (1) 2MBullets/Sec: 1 Million bullets. > (2) 1MBullets/Sec: 1.5 Million bullets. > > The multiple bus structure delivered more bullets with 1 bus still ready > for work, whereas the single bus structure's work ground to a halt waiting > for operator intervention. But, but, but.... The underlying assumption you're making is that the busses are asynchronous (like UNIBUS). (And, In fact, AFAIK, UNIBUS is the only DEC bus that's async.) I specifically posited a synchronous bus. There are no async busses that I know of in a PC, for example. Sorry. Please try again. > I hope to say that this is what others and myself have tried to convey. Can you maybe reduce it to mathematics? Or give me references that support your contention? Tnx! > Roger "Merch" Merchberger -Mike C. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Oct 26 01:32:04 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: Quiz time! In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19991025224325.06a1ae80@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: It's the Pin Setter Computer. Next Question? Zane >Anyone up for a little mind bender? We begin with the images below: > >http://www.computergarage.org/~jwilling/P0870.JPG >http://www.computergarage.org/~jwilling/P0871.JPG >http://www.computergarage.org/~jwilling/P0872.JPG >http://www.computergarage.org/~jwilling/P0873a.JPG > >One official 'no prize' to the first person who can identify these items. >(or, perhaps a real prize... You never know) > >--- > >Some Clues: > >These artifacts date from early 1962 (when they were in production - >probably designed sometime in 1960-1961) > >These are dedicated units, with a hard-wired program (using a diode logic >matrix contained in the larger unit but not visible in these images) > >The large chassis in the first two images is the central 'computer'. This >unit could service up to ten machines that the smaller chassis in the >second pair of images were connected to. (more or less on a FIFO on-demand >time-shared basis) > >The smaller unit gathers data from a machine for processing by the larger >unit, and once a solution has been determined, the larger unit relays (no >pun intended) the information back to the requesting smaller unit which >latches the solution data for display along with the original input data on >a visual readout device which is part of the machine. > >These were a production item, in fairly common use and their results could >be seen on public display nearly anywhere around the country (and to some >extent the world) where they were in use. > >Collectively, the units were known as the "' ' Computer" and were >considered an add-on or enhancement to the original machine with which they >were used. > >No direct (or manual) input from the 'user' was required in the normal use >of this computer. > >--- > >The game ends with the first correct solution or on 01-November-1999 >(whichever comes first) > >--- > >The images are un-retouched, except for image P0873a where part of the ID >plate that would give away the answer has been obscured. > >And, if anyone really thinks it will help I will add some shots of the >inside of the chassis in a day or so... LOTS of wires and stuff! > >Have at you! >-jim > >--- >jimw@computergarage.org >The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org >Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Tue Oct 26 01:43:00 1999 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: List spammer traced In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991025230903.009b6620@mail.bluefeathertech.com> from Bruce Lane at "Oct 25, 1999 11:09:03 pm" Message-ID: <19991026064303Z434157-28963+8@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > Our latest list spammer has been traced, located, and formally scorched. > > I -love- sending spammer flames from a my-deja account... it's blocked to > all incoming E-mail (accepts outgoing only), so anything a spammer sends > just bounces right back at them. > > Besides the 200 degree C flame to the spammer in question, politely formal > complaints were filed with their ISPs. Granted, I can't recall ever getting > a response from a Korean or Chinese ISP that they toasted a spammer > themselves, but there's always a first time. > > I'll advise if I get any type of valid response. > > With all the discussion of building your PCBs at home, and the wonderful VAX wars, I didn't think it was that far off topic :-). -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Oct 26 01:45:14 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: Definition of Obsolete... (was: Re: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <19991026045805.28514.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19991025202652.00965e00@127.0.0.1> (message from Roger Merchberger on Mon, 25 Oct 1999 20:26:52 -0400) Message-ID: >Roger Merchberger wrote: >> My CoCo3 is *not* obsolete. It plays Rogue wonderfully (the PC port sucked >> canal water), keeps track of my coin collection (Dynacalc is a wonderful >> thing) and other tasks. > >Strange. My CoCo 3 still plays games nicely, and still runs OS9 and does >other cool stuff. But it *is* obsolete. So are my PDP-8s and PDP-11s, >for that matter. > >Is there some emotional connotation to the word "obsolete" that I >don't understand? From the American Heritage Dictionary: ob-so-lete (?b1s?-lTt2, ?b2s?-lTt1) adj. 1. Abbr. obs. No longer in use: an obsolete word. See Synonyms at old. 2. Outmoded in design, style, or construction: an obsolete locomotive. 3. Biology. Vestigial or imperfectly developed, especially in comparison with other individuals or related species; not clearly marked or seen; indistinct. Used of an organ or other part of an animal or a plant. Hmmmm, my -11's and VAXen and more importantly those of a lot of companies don't fall into #1. As for #2 nope, they're still usable. As for #3 sure it pertains to Biology, but I could swear it was talking about PC's! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From svs at ropnet.ru Tue Oct 26 01:24:14 1999 From: svs at ropnet.ru (Sergey Svishchev) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: help id'ing board In-Reply-To: <3814AB02.F9683BB9@cornell.edu>; from Carlos Murillo-Sanchez on Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 03:09:54PM -0400 References: <3814AB02.F9683BB9@cornell.edu> Message-ID: <19991026102414.13632@firepower> On Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 03:09:54PM -0400, Carlos Murillo-Sanchez wrote: > I found a board that could fit in my microvax II if > I decided to push it in. Let me describe it: > > manufacturer: Recognition Concepts Inc., assy. # 100220, > then in the back: 100221 fab rev A Could be a ``Recognition Concepts TRAPIX 55/64 video processor''. (found a reference to it at ) See also (data sheet) and (a similar product for VME bus). -- Sergey Svishchev -- -- http://mail-index.nice.ru/ From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Oct 26 03:00:01 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: SD CAL computer museum In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19991025164809.03086b04@ferrari.sfu.ca> Message-ID: I spent the weekend in San Diego and didn't buy a darn thing. I did see a couple of interest though. The Ruben H Fleet science center has a room of "computer history" complete with a 029 keypunch and some pictures on the wall. One of the docs mentions a larger collection at one of the local colleges in La Mesa. Next time I will try to investigate it further. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Oct 26 04:18:37 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: what is a VXT 2000+ In-Reply-To: <0.7a30e2d6.25467eca@aol.com> Message-ID: >In a message dated 10/25/99 6:27:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >healyzh@aracnet.com writes: > >> Right... So, how hard did you laugh at him? Does he realize it's a fixed >> freq monitor? >> >He resells lots of large monitors so he has a good idea of its value. He is >bargainable but not arguable. He has sold many of these in the secondary >market. > >It doesn't pay to laugh at scrappers. They like to cut the cords off machines. Scrappers are also totally full of BS when it comes to talking about what they can or did sell some item for. "I" would pay no more than $20 for such a monitor, and then I would have to NEED it myself as there is functionally NO MARKET for them due to the low resolution, difficulty driving, and excessive weight. From cem14 at cornell.edu Tue Oct 26 08:32:54 1999 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: References: <000001bf1f0c$a9ae3c20$cf11883e@proteus> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19991026083254.006ba500@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 10:08 PM 10/25/99 -0700, you wrote: >>Two 1MHz busses will be faster than a single 2MHz bus if they are being used >>for different purposes, such as one for I/O and one for memory accesses. > >But my point is that one 4 MHz synchronous bus is going to be faster than >two 1 MHz busses in all cases. No, no and no. A dumb 4Mhz burst bus that requires cpu attention to work will be many times slower in actual applications than two 1Mhz buses with distributed arbitration and such smarts. That's all the point of the discussion. That's why raw numbers tend to be meaningless. That's why system designers nowadays make decisions based on simulations and not on raw specs. Carlos. From enrico.badella at softstar.it Tue Oct 26 07:48:52 1999 From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 9210 References: <000001bf1f0c$a9ae3c20$cf11883e@proteus> <3.0.2.32.19991026083254.006ba500@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: <3815A334.E4EB77AF@softstar.it> A bit off topic; a friend of mine has been offered a 9210 and asked me if it was worth the effort of moving it. Without considering the power and space requirements, I would prefer a 780 to a 9000. If you were offered a 9000 would you take it or let it be scrapped? In this case the biggest problem is the distance; the machine is located about 1000Km from us. TIA e. ======================================================================== Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 10143 Torino, Italy Wanted, for hobbist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals ========================================================================== From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Oct 26 08:34:55 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: List spammer traced - list wars In-Reply-To: <19991026064303Z434157-28963+8@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> References: <3.0.5.32.19991025230903.009b6620@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991026063455.009453f0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 00:43 26-10-1999 -0600, Dr. Green was heard to comment: >With all the discussion of building your PCBs at home, and the >wonderful VAX wars, I didn't think it was that far off topic :-). Actually, it strikes me that building PCBs at home is perfectly on-topic for the list if it involves re-creating "classic" replacement components that are no longer made. Case in point: DEC, at one time, made a supplemental +/-15V switching regulator board that operated from about 36-40V input (monopolar) for the H770 power supply (as used in some models of the 11/03 and others). Such a part is, of course, no longer made, and several of the components used appeared to be DEC-custom. With that in mind, I set out to design a functional replacement. Fortunately, I was able to take advantage of the tremendous strides in switching PS technology and PWM circuits that have come along since the 70's. The new design uses perhaps one-fifth of the original parts count, and the parts are all generic. I have all the core active components sitting in a box at the moment. I have enough to build two prototypes. Said prototypes will likely require a two-sided PCB that I'm probably going to have one of the local board shops do since I don't have the facilities or chemicals to do that kind of thing here. The only thing I'm waiting on now is a copy of the field maintenance prints for the H770 power supply so I can, at least in function, copy the control circuit that DEC used to enable/disable the regulator. Anyway, that's just one example. As for the VAXen "wars," well, all I can say is that the list does go through phases where stuff like that crops up. Witness the gripe about the E-bay thread I made not long ago. There's always the 'unsubscribe' option if it gets to be too much for you. ;-) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Oct 26 08:40:31 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: FW: PDP11 cabnets / Power Supplies available In-Reply-To: <7v497k$pdt$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> References: <7v497k$pdt$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> Message-ID: <+64VOD664BxdJjLt40LmLweaEjcJ@4ax.com> Found on Usenet. I would guess that "power supply" in this context refers to either the 861 or 874 series power controllers. So, if you need a pair of racks, please contact gman@apocalypse.org ASAP. -=-=- -=-=- On Tue, 26 Oct 1999 09:06:23 -0400, in alt.sys.pdp11 you wrote: >>From: "Paul Schmitt" >>Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp11 >>Subject: PDP11 cabnets / Power Supplies available >>Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 09:06:23 -0400 >>Lines: 20 >>Message-ID: <7v497k$pdt$1@autumn.news.rcn.net> >>X-Trace: np0m9fdKBlu4ZZAXJRM8//nzH+t0Z38Och77TKBATSE= >>X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com >>NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Oct 1999 13:10:12 GMT >>X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 >>X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 >>Path: news1.jps.net!news-west.eli.net!news-chi-1.sprintlink.net!news-central.sprintlink.net!news-peer1.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail >>Xref: news1.jps.net alt.sys.pdp11:248 >> >>Hi all, >> >>In a quest for PDP8 Cabinets I ran across a couple PDP-LSI-11 type cabinets >>and Power Supplies(kind of like finding 65' thunderbird parts when your >>restoring a 57' Chevy). By LSI-11 I refer to the later vintage white >>cabinets with rounded corners. The cabinets, 1 four foot and 1 six foot are >>in good condition - complete with good working casters, but very few front >>covers. Also included are two like 6" rack power supplies (one still >>brandy-new in the box). These are heavy items, and can be found about 30 >>minutes North of Boston. The owner would be happy to place them with >>someone who could use them. If you are interested send email to Steve Glass >>at gman@apocalypse.org. >> >> >>Good Luck. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From lance at costanzo.net Tue Oct 26 09:51:45 1999 From: lance at costanzo.net (Lance Costanzo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: SD CAL computer museum Message-ID: <3.0.32.19991026075144.007181cc@costanzo.net> At 01:00 AM 10/26/1999 -0700, you wrote: >I spent the weekend in San Diego and didn't buy a darn thing. I did see a >couple of interest though. The Ruben H Fleet science center has a room of >"computer history" complete with a 029 keypunch and some pictures on the Wow. I used to punch cards on one of those! :( That was an uptown machine, much better that the 026. I loved the little drum you could configure for tab stops. Lance Costanzo http://www.webhighrise.com System Administrator Website and Virtual Domain Hosting lance@costanzo.net starting at $5/month, no setup fees From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Oct 26 10:15:05 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:09 2005 Subject: Quiz Time - update Message-ID: Gee... I just knew people would likely respond to the list... ... and I knew the "AMF" ID Plate would start people guessing... (which is why I left it in the image) The comment "everyone knows that AMF is associated with Bowling and Harleys" was interesting. Did anyone else see the AMF Analog Computer (!) that went up on ePay a few months ago? Now, more to the point - the guesses so far: (some by multiple people) the pin setter computer (part that runs the pinsetter) an automatic scorer computer Both good guesses... and both incorrect! But we have started down the right... (dare I, sure) ...alley... B^} Round 2! -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From bill at chipware.com Tue Oct 26 10:42:57 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: Quiz time! In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19991025224325.06a1ae80@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <000a01bf1fc8$c6774a10$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Is it the machine that drives the display above the lane, including the strike/spare lights and the ball number light? From cem14 at cornell.edu Tue Oct 26 11:43:39 1999 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: help id'ing board In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19991025213645.009835f0@127.0.0.1> References: <3814AB02.F9683BB9@cornell.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19991026114339.006b5ddc@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 09:36 PM 10/25/99 -0400, you wrote: >Any chance that it might be a type of speech recognition board? I know >there were vox systems for the TRS-80 Model 1, so there's been an >(admittedly small) market for that type of hardware for years... maybe the >connector is for a microphone, and the A-D converters might make sense here... >Roger "Merch" Merchberger No, I don't think so; first of all, the converters are D/A, not A/D; this makes sense in cheap, slow successive approximation-type A/D converters. If this is indeed an A/D board, I don't think that it can sample at the speed required to capture the bandwidth of a speech signal. Carlos. From mac at Wireless.Com Tue Oct 26 10:55:23 1999 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19991026083254.006ba500@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: >At 10:08 PM 10/25/99 -0700, you wrote: >>>Two 1MHz busses will be faster than a single 2MHz bus if they are being used >>>for different purposes, such as one for I/O and one for memory accesses. >> >>But my point is that one 4 MHz synchronous bus is going to be faster than >>two 1 MHz busses in all cases. >No, no and no. Yes, yes, and yes. >A dumb 4Mhz burst bus that requires cpu attention to work >will be many times slower in actual applications than two 1Mhz buses with >distributed arbitration and such smarts. That's all the point of the >discussion. That's why raw numbers tend to be meaningless. That's why >system designers nowadays make decisions based on simulations and not >on raw specs. Carlos, my man, I find this style of discussion disingenuous. In the absence of any other data, when somebody says that two 1 MHz busses are better than one 2 MHz bus, then we must assume that all other conditions are equal. If, indeed, it's possible to arbitrarily inject post-conditions into our discussions, then, OF COURSE you can destroy an argument, because you are making an argument against something that was not supported in the first place! Now, I have proven to the satisfaction of everybody that, ASSUMING synchronous buses that are identical in every way except speed (one being twice as fast as the two half-speed busses) that in two real-life situations, one faster bus is BETTER than two separate busses. ----- I'm waiting for somebody who knows what he/she is talking about on this issue and provides data, assumptions, references, and, if necessary, simulation software, etc. Opinions and vague handwaving won't do for me anymore, sorry. >Carlos. -Mike "Hard Data, Please!" Cheponis From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Oct 25 19:13:10 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: 4K paper tape Basic for PDP 8 - I found out it does exist. In-Reply-To: <00aa01bf1f40$5c980d60$ad10a8c0@default.ttg.inter.look.ca> Message-ID: <4.1.19991025171038.040f7ea0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> I've got a copy of the Edusystem BASIC tape. I'll see if I can read it in from the teletype and upload it somewhere. --Chuck At 07:26 PM 10/25/99 -0400, you wrote: >DEC released a 4K core paper tape basic for the edusystem. Does anyone have >this basic program and can I get a copy of it or trade a copy for something? From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Oct 26 11:16:09 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 9210 In-Reply-To: <3815A334.E4EB77AF@softstar.it> References: <000001bf1f0c$a9ae3c20$cf11883e@proteus> <3.0.2.32.19991026083254.006ba500@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: >A bit off topic; a friend of mine has been offered a 9210 and asked >me if it was worth the effort of moving it. Without considering the >power and space requirements, I would prefer a 780 to a 9000. > >If you were offered a 9000 would you take it or let it be scrapped? In >this case the biggest problem is the distance; the machine is located >about 1000Km from us. The biggest problem isn't storage and power? I'm not sure how many racks you're talking but I would think this could be a fairly large system. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From chris at mainecoon.com Tue Oct 26 11:21:38 1999 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 References: Message-ID: <3815D512.DD965CAC@mainecoon.com> Mike Cheponis wrote: [stuff deleted] > Now, I have proven to the satisfaction of everybody that, ASSUMING > synchronous buses that are identical in every way except speed > (one being twice as fast as the two half-speed busses) that in two > real-life situations, one faster bus is BETTER than two separate busses. *sighs* And it's just as easy to demonstrate cases where multiple buses are superior to a single, faster bus. What does this have to do with old iron? > I'm waiting for somebody who knows what he/she is talking about on this > issue and provides data, assumptions, references, and, if necessary, > simulation software, etc. I'd suggest any early 80's or later text on system or CPU architecture. Patterson does a reasonable treatment of the subject, despite it not being his principle focus. You could go earlier, I suppose, and look at some of Cray's earlier work, and you could do a literature search of "Harvard Architecture". That would make for a good start. > Opinions and vague handwaving won't do for me anymore, sorry. Could you please take this to one of the architecture groups? It really doesn't seem to belong here. Best, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Oct 26 11:25:04 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 9210 Message-ID: <991026122504.23600b6d@trailing-edge.com> >>A bit off topic; a friend of mine has been offered a 9210 and asked >>me if it was worth the effort of moving it. Without considering the >>power and space requirements, I would prefer a 780 to a 9000. >> >>If you were offered a 9000 would you take it or let it be scrapped? In >>this case the biggest problem is the distance; the machine is located >>about 1000Km from us. >The biggest problem isn't storage and power? I'm not sure how many racks >you're talking but I would think this could be a fairly large system. Don't forget air-conditioning, too. A 9000 is *not* a small system. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 26 11:29:25 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: Quiz Time - update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Now, more to the point - the guesses so far: (some by multiple people) > > the pin setter computer (part that runs the pinsetter) > > an automatic scorer computer > My guess is the cash register ot back office accounting. I believe AMF (who once owned harley davidson) was pretty diversified. The machine had no direct connection with the pinsetters and other ally machines. Allison From amirault at epix.net Tue Oct 26 11:44:27 1999 From: amirault at epix.net (John Amirault) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: Quiz Time - guess References: Message-ID: <3815DA6B.62ECA9C3@epix.net> James, Hi. My guess is that it is from a bowling game where you slide a puck down a lane of about fifteen feet and the puck slides over wires to move the relay switches and the game keeps score by itself. This game could be found in most bars in the USA. John Amirault James Willing wrote: > Gee... I just knew people would likely respond to the list... > > ... and I knew the "AMF" ID Plate would start people guessing... > (which is why I left it in the image) > > The comment "everyone knows that AMF is associated with Bowling and > Harleys" was interesting. Did anyone else see the AMF Analog Computer (!) > that went up on ePay a few months ago? > > Now, more to the point - the guesses so far: (some by multiple people) > > the pin setter computer (part that runs the pinsetter) > > an automatic scorer computer > > Both good guesses... and both incorrect! > > But we have started down the right... (dare I, sure) ...alley... B^} > > Round 2! > -jim > --- > jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com > The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org > Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 26 11:58:59 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Now, I have proven to the satisfaction of everybody that, ASSUMING > synchronous buses that are identical in every way except speed > (one being twice as fast as the two half-speed busses) that in two > real-life situations, one faster bus is BETTER than two separate busses. In the real world there are to many conditions on things to make general assumtions that always work. For simplicity and cost as a generalization one fast bus will meet those needs and give good performance. Now a counter to that. For error/fault tolerence, and if the fastest bus is not fast enough then two (or more) will always win but will not be cheaper. I don't need number to prove that, the logic is deeper. To tie that to the "old" machines they ran their generations PCI and then some. I'll bet in a year or two you make the exact same arguement about the obsolete PCI bus. To make a machine I'd consider to be in the same class as the 6000 was when new right now I'd expect to see all of the fastest busses in use and multiples of them for parallelism. Current generation PCs most of us have access to are not this case and do perform well below the processor chips capabilities despite AGI, PCI, SCSI++ (LVUW), copper giga and fibre. Because even the simplest process like routing a packet requires the cpu to look at the address and see if it belongs to the port A or port B list and all the DMA in the world doenst get around that. A good example is the DEC ugly(by some) RQDX MSCP disk controller. While Qbus is maxed out around 4m words a second this controller can do one thing to keep the lowly vax off it. It can DO DMA from LINKED lists so that the controller is doing queued IOs. Now thats low end 1987 MicrovaxII technology but if we scaled that and put it on the PC it could be keeping the cache filled and other tasks while all the cpu has to do is set up task lists for it. Another is this RAID thing, a good idea if you have SCSI. The VAX was doing it over 14 years ago as part of the OS (disk shadowing). OK so your 486 can do interger math faster, few said it was false. It's just not enough of a measure. Less so to those guy where processing is putting the right data (or part) in the correct bin and charging off 10,223.245 (yes three digits!) each for them. It may be meaningless to the weather service that runs models that have data matricies that can fill gigabytes of ram (which has to be filled first!) from their terabyte disk farms. All those MIPS, MFLOP and Dhrystones are wasted if the system structure is hung up waiting for the floppy. If your are preaching newer is faster, the choir is over there, they know the words. If your saying PCs are better, well, put some bounds around that as I really feel it's one of those ALWAYS/NEVER generalizations that often bite. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 26 12:01:05 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: 4K paper tape Basic for PDP 8 - I found out it does exist. In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991025171038.040f7ea0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: There was also DM, a rudimentary disk monitor (load, store, run) for 4k that used the RS or RK-08. OS/8 should run on a 8S though it would be slow and if devices require speed for service that could eliminate some. Allison On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > I've got a copy of the Edusystem BASIC tape. I'll see if I can read it in > from the teletype and upload it somewhere. > --Chuck > > At 07:26 PM 10/25/99 -0400, you wrote: > >DEC released a 4K core paper tape basic for the edusystem. Does anyone have > >this basic program and can I get a copy of it or trade a copy for something? > From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Tue Oct 26 12:06:30 1999 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: List spammer traced - list wars In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991026063455.009453f0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> from Bruce Lane at "Oct 26, 1999 06:34:55 am" Message-ID: <19991026170637Z433254-16138+18@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > At 00:43 26-10-1999 -0600, Dr. Green was heard to comment: > > >With all the discussion of building your PCBs at home, and the > >wonderful VAX wars, I didn't think it was that far off topic :-). > > Actually, it strikes me that building PCBs at home is perfectly on-topic > for the list if it involves re-creating "classic" replacement components > that are no longer made. > > Case in point: DEC, at one time, made a supplemental +/-15V switching You seem to have missed my point, or didn't read the email being refered to. If we consider making PCBs on topic, which I do, why don't we consider making cabinets or cases for the same computers on topic? Do we stop re-creating components at the board level? What I found to be amusing was that the spam was related to the mailing list. Most (all?) of the time you get spam on a mailing list it has absolutely nothing to do with the topics under discussion, but in this case it seem to fit in. I read through the first paragraph or two before I realized it was intended as a contribution to our discussions. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 26 12:56:52 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: Definition of Obsolete... (was: Re: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: (healyzh@aracnet.com) References: <3.0.1.32.19991025202652.00965e00@127.0.0.1> (message from Roger Merchberger on Mon, 25 Oct 1999 20:26:52 -0400) Message-ID: <19991026175652.32416.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Is there some emotional connotation to the word "obsolete" that I > don't understand? > ob-so-lete (Äb1sú-lTt2, Äb2sú-lTt1) adj. > 1. Abbr. obs. No longer in use: an obsolete word. See Synonyms at old. > 2. Outmoded in design, style, or construction: an obsolete locomotive. > > Hmmmm, my -11's and VAXen and more importantly those of a lot of companies > don't fall into #1. As for #2 nope, they're still usable. #2 didn't say anything about usable. And if you interpret it correctly, definition #1 seems completely worthless. By that standard, buggy whips are not obsolete, because there are still a few people using them. Yet I think the majority of the population (and perhaps even a few who are using them) would hold that buggy whips are in fact obsolete. Other things that are NOT obsolete based on definition 1: Model T automobiles steam locomotives telephones with magnetos muskets Ford Trimotor airplanes - (Actually, strike the "s". there's only one still known to be flying.) the Difference Engine mechanical cash registers punched card tabluators tables of logarithms and trigonometric functions slide rules I've seen all of these things in use in the last ten years, and as far as I know they're still in use. But are you really going to tell me that a reasonable person with a practical working definition of "obsolete" would say that they aren't? I still think people are bringing too much emotional baggage with the word obsolete. If I tell you your PDP-11 is obsolete, I am not insulting you or the computer. Personally, I'm proud to have a bunch of obsolete computers. In many ways (but NOT including computational performance), I consider some of the obsolete computers to be better than the current crop of soon-to-be-obsolete computers. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 26 12:59:57 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 9210 In-Reply-To: <3815A334.E4EB77AF@softstar.it> (message from Enrico Badella on Tue, 26 Oct 1999 14:48:52 +0200) References: <000001bf1f0c$a9ae3c20$cf11883e@proteus> <3.0.2.32.19991026083254.006ba500@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> <3815A334.E4EB77AF@softstar.it> Message-ID: <19991026175957.32432.qmail@brouhaha.com> > A bit off topic; a friend of mine has been offered a 9210 and asked > me if it was worth the effort of moving it. Without considering the > power and space requirements, I would prefer a 780 to a 9000. > > If you were offered a 9000 would you take it or let it be scrapped? In > this case the biggest problem is the distance; the machine is located > about 1000Km from us. I will not offer an opinion at this time regarding whether you should rescue it. People who have been reading this list for at least a few days will know how I fill about such things. But one volume of VAX-9000 confidential internal documentation fell into my lap recently (ouch!), so if anyone does have a 9000 or acquire one, I'll make a copy available. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 26 13:01:05 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 9210 In-Reply-To: <3815A334.E4EB77AF@softstar.it> (message from Enrico Badella on Tue, 26 Oct 1999 14:48:52 +0200) References: <000001bf1f0c$a9ae3c20$cf11883e@proteus> <3.0.2.32.19991026083254.006ba500@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> <3815A334.E4EB77AF@softstar.it> Message-ID: <19991026180105.32445.qmail@brouhaha.com> > A bit off topic; a friend of mine has been offered a 9210 and asked > me if it was worth the effort of moving it. By the way, I don't think that's off-topic. :-) AFAIK, the charter of this list does not suggest that flaming people who post factual information is on-topic, though that's what we seem to get the most of in the last few days. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 26 13:04:27 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 9210 In-Reply-To: (healyzh@aracnet.com) References: <000001bf1f0c$a9ae3c20$cf11883e@proteus> <3.0.2.32.19991026083254.006ba500@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: <19991026180427.32462.qmail@brouhaha.com> Zane wrote: > The biggest problem isn't storage and power? I'm not sure how many racks > you're talking but I would think this could be a fairly large system. Nah, a 9000-series machine isn't really any larger than a 780 that he indicated he preferred. It's somewhat heavier, though. Individual boards weigh over 100 lbs. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 26 13:06:13 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: Quiz Time - guess In-Reply-To: <3815DA6B.62ECA9C3@epix.net> (message from John Amirault on Tue, 26 Oct 1999 12:44:27 -0400) References: <3815DA6B.62ECA9C3@epix.net> Message-ID: <19991026180613.32489.qmail@brouhaha.com> John Amirault > Hi. My guess is that it is from a bowling game where you slide a puck down a > lane of about fifteen feet and the puck slides over wires to move the relay > switches and the game keeps score by itself. This game could be found in most > bars in the USA. Good try, but I don't think so. One of my friends restored one, and they are self-contained. They have a lot more relays than the items in Jim's pictures. From bkennedy at kcp.com Tue Oct 26 13:32:19 1999 From: bkennedy at kcp.com (bkennedy@kcp.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: RT11 Version 3B RL02 system file Message-ID: <199910261833.LAA18950@mxu2.u.washington.edu> I found your newsgroup in a search for "RL02" on the internet. You probably think I am nuts. But, the real nuts are those at our company that refused to upgrade their older RT-11 operating systems and disk drivers years ago. So, I am looking for the DL.SYS system file for RT-11 version 3B. They are having to upgrade their Plesy RK05 disk drives to RL02s due to lack of replacement parts (they've used old systems to cabbage parts, but there are no more!). We programmers told them this would happen 10 years ago, but No ..o..o, they wouldn't listen. Most of us upgraded our PDP-11 systems to RT-11 Version 5.n many years ago, too. If you know another place to look for this, let me know. Thanks, Bev Kennedy, bkennedy@kcp.com ************************************************************ AlliedSignal Federal Manufacturing & Technologies This e-mail message has been scanned. ************************************************************ From wdg3rd at home.com Tue Oct 26 13:53:15 1999 From: wdg3rd at home.com (Ward Griffiths) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: Quiz Time - update References: Message-ID: <3815F89B.96217182@home.com> allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > My guess is the cash register ot back office accounting. I believe AMF > (who once owned harley davidson) was pretty diversified. The machine had Please, don't remind on old Hog Jockey about the AMF years. It was as though Fischer-Price had bought DEC rather than Compaq doing so. (Though I doubt that Fischer-Price could manage to do as much damage to DEC as AMF did to HD). -- Ward Griffiths "It is not merely that I dislike, distrust and disbelieve anyone who seeks political office. I would extend privacy rights even to politicians were it not for two countervailing circumstances. First, they themselves violate privacy rights wholesale. They regulate virtually everything that peaceful people can do behind closed doors, from taking drugs to having sex. It is elitist hypocrisy for them to demand the privacy rights that they routinely deny to ordinary people. If a politician wishes me to respect his personal life, then he needs to respect mine." Wendy McElroy From donm at cts.com Tue Oct 26 13:26:50 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: SD CAL computer museum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Oct 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > I spent the weekend in San Diego and didn't buy a darn thing. I did see a > couple of interest though. The Ruben H Fleet science center has a room of > "computer history" complete with a 029 keypunch and some pictures on the > wall. One of the docs mentions a larger collection at one of the local > colleges in La Mesa. Next time I will try to investigate it further. Coleman College, which does nothing but computer training. It is on a frontage road on the north side of I-8 on the western outskirts of La Mesa. - don From donm at cts.com Tue Oct 26 13:58:02 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: (fwd) vt180 boot disk,manual and floppy cable needed (fwd) Message-ID: I have already contacted the writer about disks, but can anyone help her on the cable and other information? - don ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Path: thoth.cts.com!mercury.cts.com!news.he.net!newsfeed.enteract.com!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!remarQ-easT!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!corp.supernews.com!mdalene From: mdalene@pinkrose.ctol.net (B'ichela) Newsgroups: comp.os.cpm,comp.terminals Subject: vt180 boot disk,manual and floppy cable needed Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 01:31:45 -0400 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 35 Message-ID: Reply-To: mdalene@home.ctol.net Summary: Need manual, floppy boot, and floppy cable for vt180 Keywords: vt180, floppy cable, bootdisk, manual X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.7 (UNIX) Xref: thoth.cts.com comp.os.cpm:2790 comp.terminals:1308 I found a Vt180 a few weeks ago at a "good will" in Willimantic called "Windham Interfaith Ministry" or WAIM. as I originally said I got it to work as a terminal. What I need is a floppy boot disk for the vt180 and the floppy cable (DB25 to DB37). I have the Vt180 floppy drive but no cable. I also need to know how to configure the printer port for my serial printers. There is no setup C screen on the setup screens. I tried all of what I felt was reasonable including the setup A/B button, P, C in addition to p and c as well as shifted Setup A/B and Setup. Related to this, does anyone got a manual for the Vt180? I would like to know how to use this with CP/M or whatever OS it uses. I also need to refine the setup B screen configuration for best results with my linux system. This Vt180 has a mild screen allignment problem where a service manual would be a help for addjusting the video screen. It seems that the top line of the screen is Bigger than the bottom line of text. both lines ae fully on the screen, its clearly a cosmetic concern. If you have this info. please email me at mdalene@ctol.net or post your response here. I will post my address here also for anyone who just wants to stuff a few manuals/disks via postal Michele Marie Dalene (B'ichela) 18 Carey Hill Alley, Apt 3A Willimantic, Ct 06226 -- A pearl of wisdom from the y2K newsgroups: ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Y2K appears to be the Baby Boomers mid-life crisis, and it has the potential to be a dandy. -- Anonymnous -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- B'ichela -- end of forwarded message -- From cmcmanis at freegate.com Tue Oct 26 14:30:00 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: 3rd MSCP disk controller? Message-ID: <4.1.19991026122852.00a34440@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Anyone know the "default" CSR for the 3rd MSCP disk controller? (or have the CONFIGURE command handy?) --Chuck From cmcmanis at freegate.com Tue Oct 26 15:53:56 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: 3 drives on a KFQSA? Message-ID: <4.1.19991026134338.0412ddc0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Has anyone successfully run three DSSI disk drives on a KFQSA? I've tried several times to configure mine to do that but it keeps coming up bogusly. The only "odd" bit is that one of my drives is _not_ connected to the control panel (you know the protect/enable/etc) panel. I am beginning to suspect I need to understand what the three switches that are on all RF series drives actually do. I can get two to appear, but not the third. Configuration: ** ** RF72 RF71 RF71 (UNIT=2) (UNIT=1) (UNIT=0) *TERM*-----+--------+---------+-------> KFQSA (id 6) KFQSA has three "nodes" (0, 1, and 2) 776450 - 0 760334 - 1 760340 - 2 UNIT 1 and UNIT 0 are connected to the control panel, with ID plugs 0 and 1. UNIT 2 is not connected to the control panel (no cable nor ID plug) With three disks defined on the KFQSA I get one to show up (usually UNIT 2 as DUA2). With two defined I get DUA2 and DUB0. If I disconnect the RF72 I get DUA0 and DUB1. Questions: What do the switches on the drives do?!? Has anyone configured three disks on one of these things? --Chuck From research at alltel.net Tue Oct 26 15:55:41 1999 From: research at alltel.net (Alex) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: Information Please Message-ID: <00a801bf1ff4$78e63fa0$6eae66a6@1269> Do you know what scopes were sold by Tektronics to Ail Tech for a 727 Spectrum Analizer? Thank you Alex -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991026/36ab1e53/attachment.html From research at alltel.net Tue Oct 26 16:07:36 1999 From: research at alltel.net (Alex) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: Information please Message-ID: <00ac01bf1ff6$21dfe380$6eae66a6@1269> Do you know what scopes were sold by Tektronics to Ail Tech for a 727 Spectrum Analizer? Thank you Alex -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991026/64792145/attachment.html From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Oct 26 16:33:01 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: Amstrad 8256 available for donation (fwd) Message-ID: Anyone interested in an interesting CP/M compatible import from the UK? Please reply directly to the sender. Reply-to: kgsniagfalls@hotmail.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:35:47 PDT From: Kelly Smith Subject: Amstrad 8256 available for donation 2740 Woodlawn Avenue Niagara Falls, NY 14301-1448 October 21, 1999 VCF 4275 Rosewood Dr. #29-161 Pleasanton, CA 94588 I found out about your web-site from the PBS show Net Cafe. I understand you take donations and I wonder if you'd be interested in an Amstrad PCW 8256 that uses the old 3-inch CF2 disks. I have everything that came with it originally -- printer, both manuals, 2 program disks (4 sides) -- Word Processor LocaScript on side 1, System/Utilities/Basic CP/M Plus on side 2, CP/M Plus Programming Utilities on side 3, and CP/M Plus Dr. Logo & Help on side 4. In addition, after using it for several years I had a 3 1/2 inch floppy drive added to it as drive B, which made it possible for me to transfer ASCII files created in the LocaScript program to 720 KB MF-2DD disks in DOS format so I could use them when I switched to a regular IBM compatible computer. If you're interested, the software I used for this is also available -- it's PCW 2-in-1, version 2.20, by Moonstone Computing of Glasgow U.K. The program is on one 3 inch CF2 disk and there's also a manual. It worked perfectly and although I knew very little about computers I found it easy to use. The Amstrad was in perfect working order the last time I used it, but that was six years ago. I turned it on yesterday and though the monitor came on I wasn't able to get it to boot up -- there was a different sound coming from the old CF2 drive -- instead of the usual soft whirring there was a louder grinding sound. Other than being dusty I can't think what's wrong with it. It hasn't been moved or subjected to any extremes of temperature or humidity. Anyway, let me know if you're interested, and if so, can you tell me if you pay any of the shipping costs? I doubt very much that I'd be able to sell it, but it seems a shame to just throw it out in the trash. I think you're undertaking a very worthwhile project. Working in a library, I'm aware of the problem of not being able to access stranded information in obsolete formats and disk types. We must be able to preserve and access data, statistics, and scholarly research stored in these mediums -- otherwise we lose part of our history and the chance to build on the knowledge of our predecessors. If you can keep older equipment operational you'll provide a great service. Most sincerely, Kelly G. Smith Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. VCF East? VCF Europe!? YOU BETCHA!! Stay tuned for more information or contact me to find out how you can participate http://www.vintage.org From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Oct 26 16:34:08 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: compaq luggable available (fwd) Message-ID: Anyone need a Compaq luggable to round out their collection? Please reply directly to the original sender. Reply-to: kenmor@svpal.org ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 16:59:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Ken Morley Subject: compaq luggable I have what appears to be a Compaq 'lugable' that has a sick hard disk. It was used until 2 months ago to print labels for a mailing job, so all was fine. The disk may only need to be reformated, but I dont have the diskettes needed and just wanted a newer machine ( which we have managed find). It is yours if you want it. I dont want to throw it away. Ken Morley 2342 Lida Dr. Mtn. View, CA 94043-4210 kenmor@svpal.org Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. VCF East? VCF Europe!? YOU BETCHA!! Stay tuned for more information or contact me to find out how you can participate http://www.vintage.org From dylanb at sympatico.ca Tue Oct 26 16:44:44 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: 4K paper tape Basic for PDP 8 - I found out it does exist. Message-ID: <001001bf1ffb$51884280$5d70e2d1@default.bellglobal.com> -----Original Message----- From: Chuck McManis To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, October 26, 1999 12:15 PM Subject: Re: 4K paper tape Basic for PDP 8 - I found out it does exist. >I've got a copy of the Edusystem BASIC tape. I'll see if I can read it in >from the teletype and upload it somewhere. That would gr8 chuck. Please email me with what kind of systems you have and a wish list. john (new email address) >--Chuck > >At 07:26 PM 10/25/99 -0400, you wrote: >>DEC released a 4K core paper tape basic for the edusystem. Does anyone have >>this basic program and can I get a copy of it or trade a copy for something? > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 26 14:12:01 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <19991026045426.28474.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Oct 26, 99 04:54:26 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5007 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991026/2d84e717/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 26 14:53:14 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: from "Mike Cheponis" at Oct 25, 99 11:29:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 548 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991026/8bab6f69/attachment.ksh From mac at Wireless.Com Tue Oct 26 17:02:13 1999 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <3815D512.DD965CAC@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Oct 1999, Chris Kennedy wrote: > Mike Cheponis wrote: > *sighs* And it's just as easy to demonstrate cases where multiple > buses are superior to a single, faster bus. What does this have to do > with old iron? I do not accept your assertion, simply because you asserted it(!). Relevance to old iron? Because old iron had lots of busses, new ones don't. Why is that? > I'd suggest any early 80's or later text on system or CPU architecture. Tnx for your refs, I'll look 'em up. > Could you please take this to one of the architecture groups? It > really doesn't seem to belong here. Chris, I didn't bring this up. I am merely trying to keep cannards out of the discussion. Truth must prevail, eh? Fuzzy thinking must be eliminated, etc. > Best, > Chris same! -mac From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Oct 26 17:34:19 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: Production RT-11 3B user seeks DL.sys Message-ID: <19991026223419.6139.rocketmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> I got a message from someone who tracked me down via some kind of web search looking for RL02 info. Please contact her directly if anyone can help. I don't have RT-11 v3B, so I can't check to see if there even _is_ an RL02 driver for it. -ethan ------- From: bkennedy@kcp.com | Block address To: "Ethan Dicks" Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 13:42:50 -0500 Subject: RT11 Version 3B RL02 system file I found your newsgroup in a search for "RL02" on the internet. You probably think I am nuts. But, the real nuts are those at our company that refused to upgrade their older RT-11 operating systems and disk drivers years ago. So, I am looking for the DL.SYS system file for RT-11 version 3B. They are having to upgrade their Plesy RK05 disk drives to RL02s due to lack of replacement parts (they've used old systems to cabbage parts, but there are no more!). We programmers told them this would happen 10 years ago, but No ..o..o, they wouldn't listen. Most of us upgraded our PDP-11 systems to RT-11 Version 5.n many years ago, too. If you know another place to look for this, let me know. Thanks, Bev Kennedy, bkennedy@kcp.com ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From mac at Wireless.Com Tue Oct 26 17:53:46 1999 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: Definition of Obsolete... (was: Re: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <19991026175652.32416.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: Eric, I couldn't agree w/you more! -Mike C. On 26 Oct 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > I still think people are bringing too much emotional baggage with the > word obsolete. If I tell you your PDP-11 is obsolete, I am not insulting > you or the computer. Personally, I'm proud to have a bunch of obsolete > computers. In many ways (but NOT including computational performance), > I consider some of the obsolete computers to be better than the current > crop of soon-to-be-obsolete computers. Amen! From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 26 17:58:32 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: RT11 Version 3B RL02 system file In-Reply-To: <199910261833.LAA18950@mxu2.u.washington.edu> (bkennedy@kcp.com) References: <199910261833.LAA18950@mxu2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <19991026225832.1876.qmail@brouhaha.com> > So, I am looking for the DL.SYS system file for RT-11 version 3B. They are > having to upgrade their Plesy RK05 disk drives to RL02s due to lack of > replacement parts (they've used old systems to cabbage parts, but there are > no more!). We programmers told them this would happen 10 years ago, but No > ..o..o, they wouldn't listen. How long do you think RL02 parts will be available? I'd strongly recommend getting either a Unibus SCSI interface (assuming that it's for a Unibus machine), or an RK05 or RL02 emulator. Wilson Labs makes RK05 and RL01/02 emulators using SCSI drives: http://www.wilsonlabs.com/products.htm I have never used one, so I can't comment on quality. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 26 18:54:37 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: Defining "OBSOLETE" (Was: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "OBSOLETE" "You rang?" I don't see any reason why my computing hardware needs to be much less obsolete than I am. > >It doesn't matter how many lanes you have on a single motorway, or how fast > >your car is, when you have a lot of traffic on the road you still get traffic > >jams and major bottlenecks at junctions and on/off ramps.... > This analogy is flawed, I'm afraid. > Another analogy might be: > I have a Racecar, a family car, a truck, and a bicycle. (Roughly SBI, > CI Bus, MASSBUS, and UNIBUS). > But if I had all Racecars...... Ah, the ubiquitous obligatory automotive analogy. OB_AutoAnalogy: Which is faster? A "Land-Speed-Record" contender? Or a Formula I car? Now enter them both in the Baja 500. Two DNFs. The same drivers would have better odds of completion with a stock enonobox. Which is faster? A Porsche Boxster or a '38 GMC schoolbus? Ferrying a few dozen people to and from the airport at rush hour? OB_CC: Moving a VAX? Perhaps as a more appropriate measure of automotive speed, we could use the time that it takes to move 8 Vaxen 200 Kilometers. EVERY computer is the fastest. You just need to figure out which task it is the fastest at. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Oct 26 19:03:31 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: 3rd MSCP disk controller? Message-ID: <991026200331.236006a3@trailing-edge.com> >Anyone know the "default" CSR for the 3rd MSCP disk controller? (or have >the CONFIGURE command handy?) $ mcr sysgen config DEVICE> kda50 3 %SYSGEN-I-EQV_NOTICE, equivalent name - device KDA50 will be output as UDA DEVICE> Exit Device: UDA Name: PUA CSR: 772150 Vector: 154 Support: yes Device: UDA Name: PUB CSR: 760334* Vector: 300* Support: yes Device: UDA Name: PUC CSR: 760340* Vector: 304* Support: yes Note that the presence of a serial multiplexer will change things around a lot - for example: $ mcr sysgen config DEVICE> kda50 3 %SYSGEN-I-EQV_NOTICE, equivalent name - device KDA50 will be output as UDA DEVICE> dz11 1 DEVICE> Exit Device: UDA Name: PUA CSR: 772150 Vector: 154 Support: yes Device: DZ11 Name: TTA CSR: 760100* Vector: 300* Support: yes Device: UDA Name: PUB CSR: 760354* Vector: 310* Support: yes Device: UDA Name: PUC CSR: 760360* Vector: 314* Support: yes If you don't have a machine with CONFIGURE available, you can read Alan Frisbie's very excellent DECUS presentation on this subject at ftp://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardware/alans.csr.paper -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Oct 26 19:06:33 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: 3rd MSCP disk controller? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991026122852.00a34440@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Oct 26, 99 12:30:00 pm Message-ID: <199910270006.RAA32556@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 402 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991026/75e32df5/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Oct 26 19:09:52 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: References: <19991026045426.28474.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991026170745.04210b40@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 08:12 PM 10/26/99 +0100, Tony allegedly wrote: >_You're_ the one claiming that the PC was essentially an Intel design. >But IMHO, apart from trivial/standard sections, it wasn't. Having worked at Intel just after 1981 (Jan '84) and knowing how "app notes" got written, it is entirely possible that some FE wrote the app note while looking at the IBM PC TechRef book! The app note for the 82786 (graphics chip) was written based on the design that Number-9 got working. --Chuck From elvey at hal.com Tue Oct 26 19:26:58 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199910270026.RAA24467@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > But equally, I wonder why Intel made it active high > in the first place. > > -tony Hi I would suspect that it was not intended to be tied directly to a bus. One would normally have some robust receiver that would invert the signal. In the days when it was designed, the 0 to 2.5V TTL bus was just starting out. Many had other voltage ranges and required some conditioning. The simplest conditioning circuits usually had an inverted signal out. Dwight From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 26 19:31:30 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 Message-ID: <199910270031.UAA08151@world.std.com> Message-ID: <38164995.FB5A1D1E@mainecoon.com> Mike Cheponis wrote: > > On Tue, 26 Oct 1999, Chris Kennedy wrote: > > Mike Cheponis wrote: > > > *sighs* And it's just as easy to demonstrate cases where multiple > > buses are superior to a single, faster bus. What does this have to do > > with old iron? > > I do not accept your assertion, simply because you asserted it(!). Of course not. Nor am I compelled to do your homework for you. > > Relevance to old iron? Because old iron had lots of busses, new ones don't. > > Why is that? Because it isn't the case. For example, the E4500 and its ilk have multiple busses (mezzanine busses on the CPU and I/O board, I believe built around Sun's UPA switch, in addition to the Gigaplane main bus, which in and of itself has multiple buses, at least in the case of the Starfire's Gigaplane-XB bus). Other examples include the Cray/whatever 6400 SMP, Pyramid Nile, Sequent S5000 and I suspect the SGI Challenge and HP T500, although I'd have to check. I suppose the Sequent (or do they call themselves IBM now) NUMA/ NUMA-Q architecture is multiple bus as well, but not in the sprit of what you've been discussing. In my mind, at least, such machines don't qualify as "old iron" :-) [snip] > > > Could you please take this to one of the architecture groups? It > > really doesn't seem to belong here. > > Chris, I didn't bring this up. I am merely trying to keep cannards out of > the discussion. Truth must prevail, eh? Fuzzy thinking must be eliminated, > etc. I understand, but perhaps this isn't the best place to do so? Best, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Oct 26 19:52:03 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: Definition of Obsolete... (was: Re: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 Message-ID: <991026205203.23600bc1@trailing-edge.com> >I still think people are bringing too much emotional baggage with the >word obsolete. If I tell you your PDP-11 is obsolete, I am not insulting >you or the computer. But I've got PDP-11 CPU's that were produced in the last 6 months, using very current technology. (In particular, see the Mentec M1 and M11 descriptions at http://www.mentec.com/, and see the QED 993 description at http://www.quickware.com/ ). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Oct 26 19:59:25 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: RT11 Version 3B RL02 system file In-Reply-To: <19991026225832.1876.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Oct 26, 99 10:58:32 pm Message-ID: <199910270059.RAA00224@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 663 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991026/d87301e8/attachment.ksh From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Oct 26 20:23:56 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: FW: FS: Vintage ALTOS Mod. 5-15AD In-Reply-To: <01bf200d$d14e5a60$9ec571a5@default> References: <01bf200d$d14e5a60$9ec571a5@default> Message-ID: Anyone want an Altos? If so, respond to the folks below... -=-=- -=-=- On Tue, 26 Oct 1999 23:58:45 GMT, in seattle.forsale.computers you wrote: >>From: "vaklov" >>Newsgroups: seattle.forsale.computers >>Subject: FS: Vintage ALTOS Mod. 5-15AD >>Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 23:58:45 GMT >>Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com >>Lines: 5 >>Message-ID: <01bf200d$d14e5a60$9ec571a5@default> >>X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com >>X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1162 >>Path: news1.jps.net!news-west.eli.net!news-chi-1.sprintlink.net!news-central.sprintlink.net!news-peer1.sprintlink.net!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!netnews.com!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!remarQ-easT!rQdQ!supernews.com!remarQ.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail >>Xref: news1.jps.net seattle.forsale.computers:1124 >> >>First commercial minicomputer, working, Ser#50-31343. Make offer. >>-- >>James & Kathy Deaver >>Flagstaff, AZ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 26 20:09:47 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <199910270031.UAA08151@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Oct 26, 99 08:31:30 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1038 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991027/4f6438ab/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 26 19:56:20 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991026170745.04210b40@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Oct 26, 99 05:09:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1360 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991027/a2ee00d1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 26 20:04:17 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <199910270026.RAA24467@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at Oct 26, 99 05:26:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 944 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991027/398e94cc/attachment.ksh From ltnutt01 at athena.louisville.edu Tue Oct 26 20:42:34 1999 From: ltnutt01 at athena.louisville.edu (Lisa & John Nutt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:10 2005 Subject: HP CS/80,SS/80 & Amigo Protocols Message-ID: <199910270137.VAA08130@athena.louisville.edu> Hey, I have lots of CS/80 drives which I stil use at work with HP1000 E/f series computers. I had a "CS/80 Programmers Manual" from HP which described each command in detail. I am currently looking for my copy since I wnt to do a little experimentation with using a PC with GBIP card to emulate a CS/80 drive. If I find my manual I will let you know. In the mean time, if anyone else digs up one of these babies, please tell me John From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 26 20:28:56 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <199910270031.UAA08151@world.std.com> (message from Allison J Parent on Tue, 26 Oct 1999 20:31:30 -0400 (EDT)) References: <199910270031.UAA08151@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19991027012856.2754.qmail@brouhaha.com> Allison wrote: > I think you got that backwards. VME and 68k were synchronous. The PC > bus is async (as is s100, Multibus, U and Q busses)! No, it was right. The 68K internally sychronizes the DTACK/ signal to a clock, but as far as the bus goes, the clock is not needed. It's fully asynchronous. This is explained very clearly in the 68000 data sheet. On the other hand, the PC bus requires cards to either (1) operate at the exact speed the computer wants, or (2) provide handshaking synchronously to the bus clock. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 26 20:29:42 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: Definition of Obsolete... (was: Re: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <991026205203.23600bc1@trailing-edge.com> (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) References: <991026205203.23600bc1@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <19991027012942.2780.qmail@brouhaha.com> > But I've got PDP-11 CPU's that were produced in the last 6 months, I didn't say that *your* PDP-11 was obsolete. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 26 20:30:46 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: RT11 Version 3B RL02 system file In-Reply-To: <199910270059.RAA00224@shell2.aracnet.com> (healyzh@aracnet.com) References: <199910270059.RAA00224@shell2.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <19991027013046.2802.qmail@brouhaha.com> > How long do you think it will be before we start to have trouble getting > SCSI drives that will work with the Unibus or Q-Bus SCSI controllers? A long time. AFAIK, all current SCSI drives (except the differential, non-LVD drives) can still work with slow asynchronous SCSI hosts. It's required by the spec. From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 26 20:53:11 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <199910270026.RAA24467@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: > I would suspect that it was not intended to be tied > directly to a bus. One would normally have some robust > receiver that would invert the signal. In the days when > it was designed, the 0 to 2.5V TTL bus was just starting > out. Many had other voltage ranges and required some > conditioning. The simplest conditioning circuits usually > had an inverted signal out. > Dwight Ah, not even close. TTL voltages on busses were old hat by then. The intent was to NOT connect 8259 inputs directly on busses as they are MOS devices and susceptable to damage. The expectation was at minimum an inverter ahead of the input. Also, many of the intel devices had interrupt pins that went active high. That or maybe they ran out of room on the die for an inverter. Allison From rjzambo at attglobal.net Tue Oct 26 20:33:30 1999 From: rjzambo at attglobal.net (robert zamboni) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: classic computer discussion group Message-ID: <3816566A.34B6@attglobal.net> hi Can you please add me to the group. cheers From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 26 20:55:27 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > S100 is like ISA, and is synchronous. not even close. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 26 20:43:42 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: (fwd) vt180 boot disk,manual and floppy cable needed (fwd) In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Oct 26, 99 11:58:02 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 931 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991027/bd9072d4/attachment.ksh From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Oct 26 21:01:56 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: Quiz Time - update In-Reply-To: <3815F89B.96217182@home.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991026220156.009c8db0@127.0.0.1> Rumor has it that Ward Griffiths may have mentioned these words: >allisonp@world.std.com wrote: >> >> My guess is the cash register ot back office accounting. I believe AMF >> (who once owned harley davidson) was pretty diversified. The machine had Yes, AMF was diversified back then... hell, they even made lawn mowers! "A jack of all trades, a master of jack shit..." is how I'd put it. ;-) >Please, don't remind on old Hog Jockey about the AMF years. It was >as though Fischer-Price had bought DEC rather than Compaq Personally, I think that Compaq has become the Fisher-Price of computers... I really don't see much difference myself. Just MHO, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 26 20:48:01 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at Oct 26, 99 09:55:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 525 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991027/56f3062d/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Oct 26 20:55:45 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: Chris Kennedy "Re: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530" (Oct 26, 17:38) References: <38164995.FB5A1D1E@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <9910270255.ZM5784@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 26, 17:38, Chris Kennedy wrote: > Subject: Re: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 > Mike Cheponis wrote: > > Relevance to old iron? Because old iron had lots of busses, new ones don't. > > > > Why is that? > > Because it isn't the case. > Other examples include the > Cray/whatever 6400 SMP, Pyramid Nile, Sequent S5000 and I suspect > the SGI Challenge and HP T500, although I'd have to check. Correct, the Challenge (and indeed even the Indigos and Indys) have a separate GIO bus for various purposes. And SGI Origin machines have a crossbar switch arrangement instead of a single bus, IIRC. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From mac at Wireless.Com Tue Oct 26 21:42:33 1999 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <38164995.FB5A1D1E@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: >> I do not accept your assertion, simply because you asserted it(!). > Of course not. Nor am I compelled to do your homework for you. Whoa! You make an assertion, and -I- have to disprove it? Yow! >> Relevance to old iron? Because old iron had lots of busses, new ones don't. >> Why is that? > Because it isn't the case. For example, the E4500 and its ilk have > multiple busses (mezzanine busses on the CPU and I/O board, I believe > built around Sun's UPA switch, in addition to the Gigaplane main bus, > which in and of itself has multiple buses, at least in the case > of the Starfire's Gigaplane-XB bus). Other examples include the > Cray/whatever 6400 SMP, Pyramid Nile, Sequent S5000 and I suspect > the SGI Challenge and HP T500, although I'd have to check. I > suppose the Sequent (or do they call themselves IBM now) NUMA/ > NUMA-Q architecture is multiple bus as well, but not in the > sprit of what you've been discussing. > In my mind, at least, such machines don't qualify as "old iron" :-) Still seems to me that the busses break down into "few", that is, Memory, Fast I/O, and Slow I/O. I can understand a separate Memory and I/O bus (different speeds) ONLY if the I/O devices can't run at memory speeds. (And, DRAM memory is, after all, "L3 cache" if you will...). What I see is that the earliest iron had few "channels" (busses) and then during the computer baroque period (of which the vax is the prime example) busses exploded, and now, there is a bus consolidation. For example, the PC has two primary busses AGP and PCI (we will conveniently ignore memory busses because memory subsystems must be tightly coupled to the processor for decent performance). But I'm not going to talk any more about this subject until somebody comes up with data to support these architectural features, or until some references I've been recommended come in. But I find the history of computer bus architectures absolutely fascinating! -mac From at258 at osfn.org Tue Oct 26 21:50:03 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: Quiz Time - update In-Reply-To: <3815F89B.96217182@home.com> Message-ID: Didn't AMF make a line of Totalisators? Could it be one of those? On Tue, 26 Oct 1999, Ward Griffiths wrote: > allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > > > My guess is the cash register ot back office accounting. I believe AMF > > (who once owned harley davidson) was pretty diversified. The machine had > > Please, don't remind on old Hog Jockey about the AMF years. It was > as though Fischer-Price had bought DEC rather than Compaq doing so. > (Though I doubt that Fischer-Price could manage to do as much damage > to DEC as AMF did to HD). > -- > Ward Griffiths > > "It is not merely that I dislike, distrust and disbelieve anyone who > seeks > political office. I would extend privacy rights even to politicians > were it > not for two countervailing circumstances. First, they themselves > violate > privacy rights wholesale. They regulate virtually everything that > peaceful > people can do behind closed doors, from taking drugs to having sex. It > is > elitist hypocrisy for them to demand the privacy rights that they > routinely > deny to ordinary people. If a politician wishes me to respect his > personal > life, then he needs to respect mine." Wendy McElroy > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Oct 26 22:05:05 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: (fwd) vt180 boot disk,manual and floppy cable needed (fwd) Message-ID: <199910270305.XAA18395@world.std.com> <> This Vt180 has a mild screen allignment problem where a service <> manual would be a help for addjusting the video screen. It seems that <> the top line of the screen is Bigger than the bottom line of text. <> both lines ae fully on the screen, its clearly a cosmetic concern. < References: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19991026204739.03b42f84@agora.rdrop.com> Okay... Before this degrades into a major thread of how badly AMF fubar'd Harley Davidson, I'm going to declare a winner as seen in the following: --- At 10:28 AM 10/26/1999 -0700, ss@allegro.com wrote: > >My guess: > > The "how to bowl this time" computer...the thing that determined > where to light up the "arrow" that suggested the best way to > make the spare. > >Stan --- The actual name of the unit is the "Sparemaker" computer, but I won't hold that against him. (that being a somewhat industry specific bit of trivia). The smaller chassis latched the information from the pinsetter as to which pins remained standing following the first ball and relayed this information to the larger (computer) chassis which used the information to determine which one of eleven possible colored indicator arrows should be illuminated on the pin display (called the "pindicator" by AMF) to suggest the shot with the best possibility of converting the spare. Once the computation was complete, the solution was relayed back to the smaller chassis (called the "ball path indicator") where it was latched for display, thus freeing up the main computer to service requests from other pinsetters. I thought I had a picture of one in operation, but I can't put my hands on it right at the moment, and it would take sometime to wire the computer up just for this occasion... So, perhaps later... One obvious (to some) shortcoming of the unit is that it always displayed suggestions evaluated for right handed bowlers. There was no left handed option... In the installation/service manual for the unit, the calculation (logic) sequence is detailed in a series of boolean equations. If anyone is curious, I'll either scan the page or scribble them into a future message. --- And now... the identity of this outings infamous 'no prize' (if indeed the lucky winner wishes to claim it!) A slightly (ok, very) used, actual, for real, AMF Bowling Pin! To claim it, drop me a note (off list) with your address. If not claimed, the pin will go back into the random prize pot possibly to reappear in some future quiz. Thanks to all who played - you never know when the next one will pop up! -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From roblwill at usaor.net Wed Oct 27 02:44:22 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: IBM 5155 Anyone have one? Message-ID: <01bf204f$1561cf20$68110c18@c614529-b.baden1.pa.home.com> Yeah. The 5155 Is the one that I'm looking for - the sewing machine one. Although, if someone has a 5140 for a good (fairly low) price, I wouldn't mind getting one of those, too =) I also have some old stuff to trade, too, mostly desktop stuff. -->> -Jason ICQ#: 1730318 ( general-one@home.com ) < http://members.tripod.com/general_1 > -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, October 24, 1999 9:09 AM Subject: Re: IBM 5155 Anyone have one? >> >> >Hi! >> > >> >Does anyone have an IBM 5155 (I think I got the model right) Portable PC >> >that they would want to sell/trade something for? >> >> You mean a 5140? > >No, I think he means a 5155. > >The 5155 is a sewing-machine like case containing a PC/XT motherboard, 2 >half-height floppy drives + controller (hard disks were not officially >supported, but users did add them), a 9" mono monitor (linked to a CGA >card), a 114W (IIRC) PSU, and not a lot else. The keyboard (standard >PC/XT one in a different case) clipped over the screen/drives (== the >bottom of the machine when carrying it). > >Scheamtics, etc are in the PC/XT techref and the appropriate O&A Techrefs. > >-tony > From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Oct 26 23:52:31 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: (fwd) vt180 boot disk,manual and floppy cable needed (fwd) Message-ID: <19991027045231.1876.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Don Maslin wrote: > > I have already contacted the writer about disks, but can anyone help > her on the cable and other information? > I found a Vt180 a few weeks ago... > (missing) ...the floppy cable (DB25 to DB37). Out of curiosity, is this the same cable as used with the DECMate I? Does anyone have the pinout for the DECMate I *dual* RX02-pair cable - DC37 to two DB25s? I only have one single DECMate I cable (and one DECMate I). I'd like to be able to add the second drive into the pedestal. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Oct 26 23:55:16 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: SD CAL computer museum Message-ID: <19991027045516.2190.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Don Maslin wrote: > > > On Tue, 26 Oct 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > > > I spent the weekend in San Diego... > > ...One of the docs mentions a larger collection at one of the local > > colleges in La Mesa. Next time I will try to investigate it further. > > Coleman College, which does nothing but computer training. It is on a > frontage road on the north side of I-8 on the western outskirts of La > Mesa. I was there a year ago. It's got some interesting stuff including kits built to spec and overbuilt locals. They have one PDP-8/e and no accessories for it, as an example of somewhat common stuff they don't have in abundance. Worth the trip if you are in the area. It's an hour or two walkthrough at the most unless you find something you are *very* fond of staring at. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From mdalene at home.ctol.net Tue Oct 26 23:59:15 1999 From: mdalene at home.ctol.net (B'ichela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: (fwd) vt180 boot disk,manual and floppy cable needed (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > Isn't the video system very similar to that in the VT100 terminal? I have no idea. but from wild oberservation of its design... I would think that would be the case. as it is using a Vt100/Vt102 chassis.> > In which case, pull the cover and look at the little PCB on the side of > the metal chassis behind the CRT. One of the presets on that board is > marked 'Vlin' or 'Vertical Linearity' or something like that (there are > at least 3 versions of the VT100 video board -- the 2 I've seen 'in the > flesh' and the one that's described in the printset I have). Try tweaking > that slightly. Ok, now a question (not trying to be dumb) but HOW do I remove this cover? from what I can see, the cover is not attached with screws but rather some plastic type of clips. > > Safety Warning : There are high voltages of a few hundred volts on that > PCB. So take great care when doing the adjustment. Use an insulated > screwdriver and don't touch anything you shouldn't. Several Kilovolts to be exact. so about 9.5x10^3 electron volts. (think thats bad,, try working on a IBM 8513 with an UNINSULATED screwdriver on a metal chair... OW! Precaution taken with expirence. A pearl of wisdom from the y2K newsgroups: ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Y2K appears to be the Baby Boomers mid-life crisis, and it has the potential to be a dandy. -- Anonymnous -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- B'ichela From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Oct 27 00:10:16 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: Ongoing excavations - PDP-11/20 bits Message-ID: <19991027051016.3856.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> For those at home who have been following my relocation of stuff from the basement of my former boss, I have *located* the 11/20 chassis. It has some backplanes in it but no power supply. It is sitting on a BA-11 that looks suspiciously of the same era, but too far down in the stack to get at just yet. If so, then I have a CPU bay and two BA-11 expansion boxes, enough FLIP-CHIPs to probably reassemble the CPU, several sets of 4K MM11-E boards (at least one core plane is in the hands of a former cow-orker, now in Boston), two power supplies total, a diode-matrix boot board, several peripheral cards and plenty of modern stuff to make this thing boot. I do also happen to have the original 1970 PDP-11 handbook that came with it, but no prints. Does anyone have a module layout for the 11/20? BTW, since this has come up recently, from the handbook, page viii The PDP-11 is available in two versions -- PDP-11/0 and PDP- 11/20. The basic PDP-10 contains 1,024 words of read-only memory inconjuction with 128 words of read/write memory and the basic PDP-11/20 includes 4,096 words of read/write memory I take it that the -11/20 has an MM11-E backplane in the CPU box and that the -11/10 comes with an MR11-A braided core ROM unit and an MW11-A "Wordlet" core board. After this is entirely excavated, I would expect that I could use an additional H720 PSU, but since I have the specs (+5V @ 12A, -15V @ 10A, +8RMS (unreg) @ 1.5A, -22V (unreg) @ 1.0A) that I could fake it with modern equivalents. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From jpero at cgocable.net Tue Oct 26 20:08:23 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: (fwd) vt180 boot disk,manual and floppy cable needed (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199910270508.BAA05550@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 00:59:15 -0400 (EDT) > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: "B'ichela" > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: (fwd) vt180 boot disk,manual and floppy cable needed (fwd) > X-To: Tony Duell > On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > that slightly. > Ok, now a question (not trying to be dumb) but HOW do I remove > this cover? from what I can see, the cover is not attached with screws but > rather some plastic type of clips. There's 4 "pushpins" usually white. pull them all far as it go. by then the top should be loose and not hard to get off. Thanks to my experiences fixing those video problems in those VT105's about 10 years ago. Hated it. Wizard > B'ichela > > > > From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Oct 27 00:31:36 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: Ongoing excavations - PDP-8/e Message-ID: <19991027053136.25007.rocketmail@web607.mail.yahoo.com> Thanks for the tip on the jumpers on the back of the PSU, Tony. I have manufactured a replacement and after reseating the boards, I appear to have a working PDP-8/e CPU once more. I have misplaced a box of parts (go figure) so am missing the bulk of my over-the-top jumpers, so the core testing will have to wait for another day, but I currently have the chassis and PSU sitting side by side on the table (the base from a scrapped RM02), leaving me enough room for a hex-height 16K MOS card to hang over the side of the OMNIBUS. Preliminary testing shows that all is well. I can store and retrieve numbers from the MOS memory, enter run state, single step and halt. All the bulbs appear live. I am only missing the knob off the front panel so I have to guess what mode the bottom row of lights is in. Next step - RX8E and try to boot OS/8. Failing that, back to the papertapes. On _that_ note... one of the other goodies I unearthed this weekend is a portable papertape reader used by DEC FS when diags still came on tape but customers had moved on to VT52s... it's a PR/S01. I have zero docs on this thing and have no idea what baud rate it defaults to. It is a 20mA device with a male and female connector - one with 4 wires marked TERMINAL, the other with 6 wires marked READER. How to hook it up seems obvious (I need to unearth my box of 20mA cables). How to strap the TTY card less so. I do have diagnostic tapes; as soon as a friend of mine loans me his 20mA-to- RS-232 converter, I expect to back up four boxes of diags and utils (none of which I expect are unique in the world - it's lots of MAINDEC and DECUS stuff) I did attempt to place two different KK8A modules in the -8/e box in place of the KK8E. Toggling the Load Address switch only incremented the MA lights in either case. I do not know for certain if these particular boards are working, but what is the expected behavior for the combination of a PDP-8/a CPU and a PDP-8/e front panel? Is it supposed to work? I know you can stuff a KK8E in a hex-height OMNIBUS box. That was a supported configuration. Also, where can I get a diagram describing the function of the DIP switch on the KK8A? ISTR that only one or two switches have any beneficial effect, but it's been more than 10 years since I have had to change one and I forget what they do. Furthermore, is there a good page to reference for some trivial toggle-in programs for basic test/checkout? I can write a couple, but if there are some pre-done ones, I'd rather start there. The eventual goal of _this_ box is to pass all tests, then move on to repairing the TD8E/TU56 that came with it. When I used this box in college, it used to work. Between then and when they threw it out, the DECtape stopped working. I have boxes of tapes to go through/use/backup once it all works. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Wed Oct 27 00:40:59 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: Did the list change? In-Reply-To: <81ABF6783ED5D111816E00A0C997EB9536652A@FTPSERVER1> from "Todd Jaspers" at Oct 25, 99 02:34:01 pm Message-ID: <199910270541.WAA02849@saul2.u.washington.edu> > Hi, im sorry to say that I can't handle all this e-mail on my work e-mail > account. Can anyone tell me how to unsubscribe and resubscribe? I did not > bookmark the original web site address I was at when I first subscribed. Sure. If you are feeling lazy and want me to do this for you, I can do it. Send me private mail. You must send the unsubscribe message using your work e-mail account (or wherever your messages are being sent now). Send e-mail to listproc@u.washington.edu with any subject. In the body, write unsubscribe classiccmp except WITHOUT the tab at the beginning. (I put the tab there because the software has a habit of screening messages to the list members for command words. This is to help people in case the message really IS a command, in which case it should go to the software. But it often trips people up.) And you must send the subscribe message from your home e-mail account (or wherever you want the messages to be sent). Send e-mail to listproc@u.washington.edu with any subject. In the body, write subscribe classiccmp Todd Jaspers except WITHOUT the tab at the beginning. Let me know if you have any other questions. You can also get your mail in digest form (one huge message for every day instead of tons of little messages) and I will be happy to explain how to set that up. -- Derek From tih at Norway.EU.net Wed Oct 27 00:41:14 1999 From: tih at Norway.EU.net (Tom Ivar Helbekkmo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: 3rd MSCP disk controller? In-Reply-To: Chuck McManis's message of "Tue, 26 Oct 1999 12:30:00 -0700" References: <4.1.19991026122852.00a34440@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <86aep5jr7p.fsf@athene.i.eunet.no> Chuck McManis writes: > Anyone know the "default" CSR for the 3rd MSCP disk controller? (or > have the CONFIGURE command handy?) Well, yeah. Also, I've posted (a couple of times) my emulation of the SYSGEN CONFIGURE command, a small C program I call just sysgen. I don't have a copy here at the moment, but I can repost it from home. I'd be happy to see it (or something based on it) become a part of the standard NetBSD distribution, and integrated into the install kit for NetBSD/vax... It was re-engineered from the tables in the back of one of the VMS 5.2 manuals -- and I interestingly uncovered several small mistakes in those tables while doing it. :-) (My program agrees with the actual CONFIGURE output where the tables don't.) Anyway, the actual CSR and vector assignments generally depend on the total configuration of the system, but here's a simple run on a VAX, based on what you asked about: $ MCR SYSGEN SYSGEN> CONFIGURE DEVICE> UDA,3 DEVICE> ^Z Device: UDA Name: PUA CSR: 772150 Vector: 154 Support: yes Device: UDA Name: PUB CSR: 760334* Vector: 300* Support: yes Device: UDA Name: PUC CSR: 760340* Vector: 304* Support: yes SYSGEN> -tih -- Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity. --Niles Crane, "Frasier" From mac at Wireless.Com Wed Oct 27 02:27:55 1999 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > real-life situations, one faster bus is BETTER than two separate busses. > In the real world there are too many conditions on things to make general > assumtions that always work. Including this one, no doubt? ;-) > For simplicity and cost as a generalization > one fast bus will meet those needs and give good performance. That statement is supported by fact! > Now a counter to that. For error/fault tolerence, and if the fastest bus > is not fast enough then two (or more) will always win but will not be > cheaper. I'm not sure I understand this: the fastest bus is not fast enough? > I don't need numbers to prove that, the logic is deeper. ? Deep sub-micron or something? > To tie that to > the "old" machines they ran their generations PCI and then some. I'll bet > in a year or two you make the exact same arguement about the obsolete PCI > bus. Gee, as much as folks like to pidgen-hole me, I'm really only trying to understand the performance and lure of the old iron, like vaxes, in relation to newer iron that I have or can use, and also understand better. Call it "Comparative Computer Anatomy" if you will... Perhaps people do not like my approach, but my aim is true. >To make a machine I'd consider to be in the same class as the 6000 > was when new right now I'd expect to see all of the fastest busses in use > and multiples of them for parallelism. This is, unfortunatly, gobbdleygook to me. "multiples of them for parallelism"? Why would this be necessary? Why can't one fast one be used? > Current generation PCs most of us have access to are not this case and do > perform well below the processor chips capabilities I don't understand this, either. Are you saying that if there were memory-speed peripherals, I/O could flow through the processor faster than existing PC busses? If so, then I definitely agree with you. However, then bus design gets complicated with cache-coherency etc. I think this is why you want at least two busses on a machine: memory and I/O. (As network speeds increase beyond 1 Gb/s, then perhaps a special Network Bus will be required, too.) > despite AGI, PCI, > SCSI++ (LVUW), copper giga and fibre. Because even the simplest process > like routing a packet requires the cpu to look at the address and see if > it belongs to the port A or port B list and all the DMA in the world > doenst get around that. right! That's what I was arging before concerning "processing". > A good example is the DEC ugly(by some) RQDX MSCP disk controller. > While Qbus is maxed out around 4m words a second this controller can do > one thing to keep the lowly vax off it. It can DO DMA from LINKED lists > so that the controller is doing queued IOs. Now thats low end 1987 > MicrovaxII technology but if we scaled that and put it on the PC it could > be keeping the cache filled and other tasks while all the cpu has to do is > set up task lists for it. Sounds like what we now call "scatter/gather DMA" - and is a great idea for networking stacks. > Another is this RAID thing, a good idea if you have SCSI. The VAX > was doing it over 14 years ago as part of the OS (disk shadowing). This is, as I understand it, not -quite- true. Disk Shadowing (what is that, RAID-1 ?) is a simple technique, not as sophisticated as RAID-5, for example. But I remain unclear how this helps us understand busses? > OK so your 486 can do interger math faster, few said it was false. Right, and those that few that disagreed were wrong. ;-) > It's > just not enough of a measure. Less so to those guy where processing is > putting the right data (or part) in the correct bin and charging off > 10,223.245 (yes three digits!) each for them. It may be meaningless > to the weather service that runs models that have data matricies that can > fill gigabytes of ram (which has to be filled first!) from their terabyte > disk farms. Right. But, for my goal of attempting to put these old, "obsolete", err, I mean "ancient", err, I guess it's PC (Politically Correct!) to say "Classic" machines in perspective. > All those MIPS, MFLOP and Dhrystones are wasted if the system structure > is hung up waiting for the floppy. You mean if the system is waiting for some I/O device? Sure! > If your are preaching newer is faster, the choir is over there, they know > the words. I'm not. (But it -is- a fact, though. "Obsolete Ready" as they say...) > If your saying PCs are better, well, put some bounds around > that as I really feel it's one of those ALWAYS/NEVER generalizations > that often bite. For the nth time: a dx2/66 is 2 to 3x as fast as a uniprocessor 6500 on Dhrystone 2.1; this is what I've maintained, and it helps put at least part of the history of vaxes in perspective for me. I think we are all fully aware that there are other aspects that need to be considered to put the vax history in total perspective. -Mike C p.s. Allison, just curious, are you a recovering DECaholic? ;-) Your ferver for the old DEC stuff is amazing to me! Religion? It's fun to watch! From abs at mono.org Wed Oct 27 03:57:24 1999 From: abs at mono.org (David Brownlee) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: 3rd MSCP disk controller? In-Reply-To: <86aep5jr7p.fsf@athene.i.eunet.no> Message-ID: If nothing else sysgen wold be a great addition to pkgsrc... Any chance you could submit a package? :) David/absolute On 27 Oct 1999, Tom Ivar Helbekkmo wrote: > Chuck McManis writes: > > > Anyone know the "default" CSR for the 3rd MSCP disk controller? (or > > have the CONFIGURE command handy?) > > Well, yeah. Also, I've posted (a couple of times) my emulation of the > SYSGEN CONFIGURE command, a small C program I call just sysgen. I > don't have a copy here at the moment, but I can repost it from home. > I'd be happy to see it (or something based on it) become a part of the > standard NetBSD distribution, and integrated into the install kit for > NetBSD/vax... It was re-engineered from the tables in the back of one > of the VMS 5.2 manuals -- and I interestingly uncovered several small > mistakes in those tables while doing it. :-) (My program agrees with > the actual CONFIGURE output where the tables don't.) > > Anyway, the actual CSR and vector assignments generally depend on the > total configuration of the system, but here's a simple run on a VAX, > based on what you asked about: > > $ MCR SYSGEN > SYSGEN> CONFIGURE > DEVICE> UDA,3 > DEVICE> ^Z > Device: UDA Name: PUA CSR: 772150 Vector: 154 Support: yes > Device: UDA Name: PUB CSR: 760334* Vector: 300* Support: yes > Device: UDA Name: PUC CSR: 760340* Vector: 304* Support: yes > SYSGEN> > > -tih > -- > Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity. --Niles Crane, "Frasier" > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Oct 27 06:31:44 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: SD CAL computer museum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Tue, 26 Oct 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > >> I spent the weekend in San Diego and didn't buy a darn thing. I did see a >> couple of interest though. The Ruben H Fleet science center has a room of >> "computer history" complete with a 029 keypunch and some pictures on the >> wall. One of the docs mentions a larger collection at one of the local >> colleges in La Mesa. Next time I will try to investigate it further. > >Coleman College, which does nothing but computer training. It is on a >frontage road on the north side of I-8 on the western outskirts of La >Mesa. http://www.computer-museum.org/ I am going to try and visit next time we are down south. From dylanb at sympatico.ca Wed Oct 27 06:58:45 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: Structural Damage Question Message-ID: <002501bf2072$9eea9ec0$9f71e2d1@default.bellglobal.com> I live in a 29 story building. I have 2000 pounds of racks with CPUs in my "lab" (a room 20' X 20'). I am going to move in another 2-3 thousand pounds of minis as I am going through my storage and moving them up here. I am also picking up more minis from a plant in the US. I am placing the mini racks along the walls in the hope that there is more support there. A real serious question I have is... Can a room in a building like this support 5000 pounds or more? If someone here has experience with this please tell me if this is okay. A few years ago a rack of TE16s broke through a wooden basement floor once (where I was storing some minis) and cracked a sewer line [ yes , what a mess!]. john From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Oct 27 08:38:25 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: Structural Damage Question In-Reply-To: <002501bf2072$9eea9ec0$9f71e2d1@default.bellglobal.com> Message-ID: >I live in a 29 story building. I have 2000 pounds of racks with CPUs in my >"lab" (a room 20' X 20'). I am going to move in another 2-3 thousand pounds >of minis as I am going through my storage and moving them up here. I am also >picking up more minis from a plant in the US. I am placing the mini racks >along the walls in the hope that there is more support there. A real serious >question I have is... Can a room in a building like this support 5000 pounds >or more? If someone here has experience with this please tell me if this is >okay. The trouble I think is in the difference between these three words; can, should, and will. The rule of thumb I go by is, what weight of "people" would fit in the same space. 5000 lbs is about what you might expect from 25 to 30 people in a room. OTOH you might have substantial liability risks from putting all this "commercial" stuff in an apartment building. From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 27 09:12:58 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: (fwd) vt180 boot disk,manual and floppy cable needed (fwd) In-Reply-To: <19991027045231.1876.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > > I found a Vt180 a few weeks ago... > > (missing) ...the floppy cable (DB25 to DB37). > > Out of curiosity, is this the same cable as used with the DECMate I? Does > anyone have the pinout for the DECMate I *dual* RX02-pair cable - DC37 to > two DB25s? I only have one single DECMate I cable (and one DECMate I). I'd > like to be able to add the second drive into the pedestal. No. allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 27 09:15:17 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: (fwd) vt180 boot disk,manual and floppy cable needed (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Ok, now a question (not trying to be dumb) but HOW do I remove > this cover? from what I can see, the cover is not attached with screws but > rather some plastic type of clips. Pry them with a small screwdriver. They are a type of expanding snap rivet. Allison From steverob at hotoffice.com Wed Oct 27 09:37:13 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: Structural Damage Question Message-ID: <01BF2067.3B969D70.steverob@hotoffice.com> On Wednesday, October 27, 1999 9:38 AM, Mike Ford [SMTP:mikeford@socal.rr.com] wrote: > >I live in a 29 story building. I have 2000 pounds of racks with CPUs in my > >"lab" (a room 20' X 20'). I am going to move in another 2-3 thousand pounds > >of minis as I am going through my storage and moving them up here. I am also > >picking up more minis from a plant in the US. I am placing the mini racks > >along the walls in the hope that there is more support there. A real serious > >question I have is... Can a room in a building like this support 5000 pounds > >or more? If someone here has experience with this please tell me if this is > >okay. Buildings are designed to withstand both "live" and "dead" loads. A "live" load is one where the load is not constant or is moving. IE: people, wind, etc... A "dead" load is a load that is constant or does not move. IE: the structure itself. Although local building codes dictate what loads the building must support, they are usually pretty consistent. I did a search and found the following reference: According to the 1991 standard building code: Occupancy or Use Live Load (psf) ------------------------------------------------------------------- Libraries: Reading rooms 60 Stack rooms (books and shelving) 125 Corridors, above first floor 80 Residential: Multifamily houses; Private apartments 40 Public rooms 100 Corridors 80 Dwellings: Sleeping rooms 30 Attics with storage 30 Attics without storage 10 All other rooms 40 So, for a 20' X 20' room in your building the allowable load should be: 20 x 20 X 40(psf) = 16,000 lbs. If one of your neighbors has a large book collection, they may be putting a greater load on the building than you are... :-) Steve Robertson - From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed Oct 27 09:56:44 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: VT180 Boot disk... No problem In-Reply-To: <199910270305.XAA18756@world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Oct 26, 1999 11: 5:17 pm" Message-ID: <199910271457.KAA28582@pechter.dyndns.org> > Wish I could on the docs. DISKS, I'd have to set up mine to make copies > that will not happen for a while as I have a work project on the desk > and an 11/23 in the middle of the room (dont ask). The cable I can do. > > > Allison I can supply disks... I've got the original CP/M disk for the machine with all the utilities. I've got ZCPR2 and Multi-System180 as well, but I don't know if the authors of the modified bios's have released them to the public domain or if they're still selling/supporting them. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From marvin at rain.org Wed Oct 27 10:21:44 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: Structural Damage Question References: <01BF2067.3B969D70.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <38171888.E0E39081@rain.org> Steve Robertson wrote: > > Buildings are designed to withstand both "live" and "dead" loads. A "live" > load is one where the load is not constant or is moving. IE: people, wind, > etc... A "dead" load is a load that is constant or does not move. IE: the > structure itself. > So, for a 20' X 20' room in your building the allowable load should be: > 20 x 20 X 40(psf) = 16,000 lbs. Just to point out, I believe that psf (pounds per sq foot) implies the load should be spread out and not concentrated in one corner of the room :). Thanks for those figures; I had always figured about 50 psf as a rule of thumb. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 27 10:37:16 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 References: Message-ID: <9910271138170D.29592@vault.neurotica.com> On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, Mike Cheponis wrote: >p.s. Allison, just curious, are you a recovering DECaholic? ;-) Your ferver >for the old DEC stuff is amazing to me! Religion? It's fun to watch! Jeeeeezus. You, sir, are capable of being one of the largest assholes I've ever seen online. -Dave McGuire From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Oct 27 10:49:09 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991027114909.0090fd90@127.0.0.1> Rumor has it that Mike Cheponis may have mentioned these words: >p.s. Allison, just curious, are you a recovering DECaholic? ;-) Your ferver >for the old DEC stuff is amazing to me! Religion? It's fun to watch! Recovering? Recovering?!?!?!? Ya know, some of us just don't want to be cured, and some even feel that these wonderful machines (not *just* DEC's, but they're of course included... ;-) are the anti-venom to Micro$haft's deep, wounding fangs. Boy, you sure know how to cut to the quick, eh? As always, just MHO, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed Oct 27 11:03:26 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19991027114909.0090fd90@127.0.0.1> from Roger Merchberger at "Oct 27, 1999 11:49: 9 am" Message-ID: <199910271603.MAA28997@pechter.dyndns.org> > Rumor has it that Mike Cheponis may have mentioned these words: > > >p.s. Allison, just curious, are you a recovering DECaholic? ;-) Your ferver > >for the old DEC stuff is amazing to me! Religion? It's fun to watch! > > Recovering? Recovering?!?!?!? Ya know, some of us just don't want to be > cured, and some even feel that these wonderful machines (not *just* DEC's, > but they're of course included... ;-) are the anti-venom to Micro$haft's > deep, wounding fangs. > > As always, just MHO, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger Count this as another person in complete agreement. Bill Pechter ex-DEC Field Service 1981-86 (still carrying my DECService award Day Timer) --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Oct 27 11:12:51 1999 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: Configuring a DEC Correspondent (LA-12)? Message-ID: Hi all, I recently picked up a DEC Correspondent LA-12 printing terminal. It looks like a little cousin of the DECwriter II, really. Apparently there were two models available, one with a 300 baud coupling modem, and one without. I got the one without. I'm trying to figure out how to configure the dang thing. There's a "Set Up" key which seems to act like a toggle for going into some sort of set-up mode, but I'm really just stabbing around in the dark. I've gotten it to print out its current configuration, but I can't figure out how to set new values! I'd like to use it as a console on my VAX, so I'll need to figure out how to do 9600 baud 8-N-1. Right now it's set up at 9600/1200 7-E-1 for some strange reason. Does anyone have documentation on this beast? The Universal Database (aka the Internet) has been of little use on this one, that I've found. -Seth -- "This is not something made up... this is taken from | Seth J. Morabito a secret 12th century alchemy manuscript. this is | sethm@loomcom.com the real thing!!!" -- An online auction (really!) | Perth ==> * From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 27 11:17:38 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Based on comments to date I'm dismissing you as a troll. > p.s. Allison, just curious, are you a recovering DECaholic? ;-) Your ferver > for the old DEC stuff is amazing to me! Religion? It's fun to watch! Insults? DEC is not religon for me. Those that know it's really CPM and z80s. Allison From mac at Wireless.Com Wed Oct 27 11:58:59 1999 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Wow, people sure get defensive here! That line was a -compliment- !!! I -love- reading Allison's posts! It's the fervor that I rarely see these days, and is only rivaled by the FORTH people! It's a compliment! Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeezus, people! Again, thanks, Allison, for your posts! -mac p.s. The first non-discrete homebrew machine I designed was a Z80 (ceramic package, no less!) And the first commercial machine I owned outright was a Kaypro II. On Wed, 27 Oct 1999 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > Based on comments to date I'm dismissing you as a troll. > > > p.s. Allison, just curious, are you a recovering DECaholic? ;-) Your ferver > > for the old DEC stuff is amazing to me! Religion? It's fun to watch! > > Insults? > > DEC is not religon for me. Those that know it's really CPM and z80s. > > Allison > > > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Oct 27 12:05:23 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: Using insults when arguments fail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Based on comments to date I'm dismissing you as a troll. > >> p.s. Allison, just curious, are you a recovering DECaholic? ;-) Your >>ferver >> for the old DEC stuff is amazing to me! Religion? It's fun to watch! > >Insults? > >DEC is not religon for me. Those that know it's really CPM and z80s. Paraphrasing; Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic (religion). People who don't really understand technology in the depth it gets tossed around here (perhaps shoveled at times) may assume incorrectly that its same for others as it is for them, a mystery one takes on faith from the advertising. I don't think we have any true brand zealots in this group, but we certainly don't mind splitting a few hairs to "iron out" the details, and that could appear to such a person as ferver. OTOH I think we should work out some kind of 12 step program..... Hi my name is Mike (Hi Mike) I'm not really a DECaholic. (sage nodding of heads) I'm just here because I picked this Rainbow out of a dumpster. (more nodding, quiet gossip begins) Really I'm not a DECaholic, it had this network card in it so I had to buy a VAX to hook up to it. (gossip no longer quiet, Rainbow vs Decmate discussion getting animated, origin of networking chatter warming up) I'm not a DECaholic either, whats wrong with a raised floor in the family room? (cheer goes up from the group, settles into chaos of small groups comparing wiring and A/C techniques) From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Oct 27 12:09:28 1999 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: Using insults when arguments fail References: Message-ID: <381731C8.D89F5A71@mainecoon.com> Mike Ford wrote: [stuff deleted] > > I'm not a DECaholic either, whats wrong with a raised floor in the family > room? Oh dear. You're suggesting there's something unusual about a raised floor in the family room? :-) Best, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Oct 27 12:37:00 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: Using insults when arguments fail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >I'm not a DECaholic either, whats wrong with a raised floor in the family >room? (cheer goes up from the group, settles into chaos of small groups >comparing wiring and A/C techniques) Actually I think the garage is the proper place for the raised floor. That way you've got a nice cement slab under it in most cases! At least around here you've got cemement in garages made in at least the last 50 years or so. I'd like a nice house with a three car garage, no cars in it, but with a nice raised floor! Seal two doors, and leave one able to open with an inner wall and a ramp so you can get systems in and out, without destroying your ability to keep it clean in the computer room (err, I mean garage...). Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Oct 27 12:41:14 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables Message-ID: Does anyone know of any sources of info on the net anywhere on running a network between various rooms in a house? I'm wanting to run a line capable of handling 100BaseT from the house out to the garage, and probably a couple other rooms in the house. It is past time to move most of the VMS cluster out to the Garage, and tie in the parts already out there :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Oct 27 12:46:29 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables Message-ID: <991027134629.23600bc6@trailing-edge.com> >Does anyone know of any sources of info on the net anywhere on running a >network between various rooms in a house? As an authoratitive reference on the subject, I *highly* recommend the Three Stooges' _A Plumbing We Will Go_. Shortly after moving to Canada I was very confused when my electric bill was called the "Hydro bill", but Larry, Moe, and Curly cleared this all up for me. Tim. From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Oct 27 12:46:42 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: Did the list change? Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991027124642.00d5dad0@vpwisfirewall> My thanks go out to all those who helped debug my problem with receiving messages from the list. It was a problem at my ISP, not the listproc. I own several domains, and they didn't reconfigure them properly after their DNS server died (without backup) a week or so ago. The problem was eventually solved when they granted me access to their mail administration software, and I found the problem and fixed it. :-) It was strange - for some reason, U-Wash and Yahoo would try to contact the secondary MX-record mail machine instead of my 'threedee.com' machine, and the secondary was misconfigured. I was still receiving the other 98% of my mail. Thanks again, I'm happily back on the list. - John From cfandt at netsync.net Wed Oct 27 12:52:03 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: Structural Damage Question In-Reply-To: References: <002501bf2072$9eea9ec0$9f71e2d1@default.bellglobal.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991027100802.00aa6540@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 06:38 AM 10/27/99 -0700, Mike Ford said something like: "John B" had originally written: >>I live in a 29 story building. I have 2000 pounds of racks with CPUs in my >>"lab" (a room 20' X 20'). I am going to move in another 2-3 thousand pounds >>of minis as I am going through my storage and moving them up here. I am also >>picking up more minis from a plant in the US. I am placing the mini racks >>along the walls in the hope that there is more support there. A real serious >>question I have is... Can a room in a building like this support 5000 pounds >>or more? If someone here has experience with this please tell me if this is >>okay. > >The trouble I think is in the difference between these three words; can, >should, and will. The rule of thumb I go by is, what weight of "people" >would fit in the same space. 5000 lbs is about what you might expect from >25 to 30 people in a room. > >OTOH you might have substantial liability risks from putting all this >"commercial" stuff in an apartment building. John, Hmmm, you want to know for sure, eh? 5k pounds distributed _evenly_ over the 20x20 area is 12.5 lbs/sq. ft. Well, that's not much. An average size fully loaded refrigerator provides at least twice the floor loading (figure ~250 lbs over ~10 sq. ft.) BUT the _total_ floor load capacity of the building's floor must be considered. Your apartment building is most likely designed as a residential structure and not a factory/office/commercial structure. Therefore the floor load specs are going to be minimum required to get the building built yet allow 'normal' floor loading from 'normal' household furnishings distributed somewhat evenly across the area. If the room is on an outside corner of the building or on two sides of columnar support within the building then there may be a chance a big load will not stress the floor/wall interface too much. The walls below the room are very likely not designed as supporting walls, just separating partitions, so don't consider them as any support. The 40 lbs/sq ft Steve lists is probably correct for your local building code in Canada, but check for sure. Do you know your building super or other high-level building maintenance person really, really well? If so, ask their opinion. You indicate you're picking up more minis from a plant in the US. Yet more loading will aggravate a problem already raised by the original 5k lbs. I feel Mike is correct suggesting the liability risk. Steve's building code information he gave in his msg is likely how your apartment building may have been constructed. I'm not at all trying to discourage you from preserving old hardware in your apt. It's just that you should know the possible risk of a floor structure that just might be too weak to handle over 5k pounds in a 400 sq ft area --plus, disclosure to the owner will help you keep possession of your home whether or not they approve. You see, if nothing is said to the super how do you explain it to them when he/she knocks on the door to investigate "a dangerous situation", or whatever, reported by someone who's seen/heard of all that weight in that room? A real serious question indeed. Get an apartment in the basement level where the floor pad directly contacts the earth :-) Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Oct 27 12:55:14 1999 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables References: Message-ID: <38173C82.5B9E24FE@mainecoon.com> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > Does anyone know of any sources of info on the net anywhere on running a > network between various rooms in a house? I'm wanting to run a line > capable of handling 100BaseT from the house out to the garage, and probably > a couple other rooms in the house. When we purchased this place six months ago the first things we did were to build an addition and pull multiple cat five drops everywhere (most rooms have two, the addtion has sixteen). Everything terminates in the garage; depending on the application it either plugs into the Merlin, the 100base-TX switch or the 10base-T external network that connects to the T1. Stuff in the rooms terminate in keystone jacks; stuff in the garage just sort of pukes out of a 2" nonmetalitc conduit and are terminated in male RJ45s -- I didn't have any racks at the time and I was already truly sick of punching down 110 connectors. You'll need a crimper and RJ45 dies, male RJ45s and cat five cable. If you want to terminate in jacks you'll also need female RJ45s and a punch-down tool with a 110 bit. We chose keystones because they (and their clones) are modular; depending on the application we have anywhere from one to four on each faceplate. All of this stuff is available mail order, of if you're close to one, at places like Fry's and HSC. The ugliest part of the job, IMHO, is pulling the cables. This is a split level house, so there was the additional fun of figuring out how to get stuff between floors. Putting jacks into existing walls was easier than I thought, once I was introduced to remodel/old work boxes. Best, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From cfandt at netsync.net Wed Oct 27 12:59:51 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: Did the list change? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991027124642.00d5dad0@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: <4.1.19991027135707.00ab8870@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 12:46 PM 10/27/99 -0500, John Foust said something like: > >My thanks go out to all those who helped debug my problem with receiving >messages from the list. It was a problem at my ISP, not the listproc. -- snip -- > >Thanks again, I'm happily back on the list. That's great John. Welcome back to the land of flames :-) You missed virtually all of the Great "gauging interest in VAX 6000-530" "discussion". It was great! LOL Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Oct 27 13:06:49 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables In-Reply-To: <991027134629.23600bc6@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: >>Does anyone know of any sources of info on the net anywhere on running a >>network between various rooms in a house? > >As an authoratitive reference on the subject, I *highly* recommend >the Three Stooges' _A Plumbing We Will Go_. Ah, not quite what I had in mind... I think I remember that one, and that's the kind of mess I'm trying to avoid :^) I'm thinking more on something that recommends how to do the cable connections and such. Plus I honestly have no clue what max cable length requirements are and how hubs and such effect that. I'm looking for something for non-Networking Guru's. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Oct 27 13:25:59 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:11 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables (Stupid Question) In-Reply-To: <991027134629.23600bc6@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: OK, I was pointed at http://www.linksys.com looks like they've got some good info. However, I just noticed something that has me wondering, looks like CAT5 only has 4 real wires made out of the 8 wires. So... Is it possible to run at least 10BaseT over normal phoneline cable? It just happens that a totally unused phoneline was run a couple years ago at the same time I had a work phone put in. Yes, I want to be lazy if possible. I'm assuming that if it is possible I can make a RJ11-to-RJ45 adapter and plug one end into a hub in the house, the other end into a hub in the garage. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Oct 27 13:27:35 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables In-Reply-To: References: <991027134629.23600bc6@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991027112253.00b7a1b0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 11:06 AM 10/27/99 -0700, Zane wrote: >I'm thinking more on something that recommends how to do the cable >connections and such. Plus I honestly have no clue what max cable length >requirements are and how hubs and such effect that. I'm looking for >something for non-Networking Guru's. The good news is that cable wiring is optimized for monkeys so people with brains can do it, provided they avoid the temptation to think about what they are doing. There is no distance in a "normal" residential house that will exceed the CAT5 cable limit. (1km?) The CAT5 cable has its pairs color coded. The jacks are color coded. The termination plugs are color coded. Match the colors and win! :-) I did this for my house (on going project) and chose one of the two standards for all 8 conductors in the documentation, I taped that to the phone closet "board". (a piece of plywood attached to the wall) The biggest hassle is pulling the cable. Second biggest is getting power to the place where everything terminates. --Chuck From vaxman at uswest.net Wed Oct 27 13:30:29 1999 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: Using insults when arguments fail In-Reply-To: <381731C8.D89F5A71@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, Chris Kennedy wrote: > Mike Ford wrote: > > [stuff deleted] > > > > > I'm not a DECaholic either, whats wrong with a raised floor in the family > > room? > > Oh dear. You're suggesting there's something unusual about a raised floor > in the family room? :-) > > Best, > Chris > Unfortunately, I don't have enough ceiling height for a raised floor in my "family" room... I'm going to have to set the raised floor tiles directly on the concrete, Sigh... clint PS My family includes: Dad - 11/750 Mom - uVax III (in world box) Mom2 - uVax II (in world box) (their mormons :^) LilSis - VaxStation II (in BA23) Bro - uVax 3100 (headless) Baby - uVax 2000 (headless) Still looking for the grandparents (PDP-11/73,PDP-11/xx) And five rodents (PCs) running various flavors of FreeBSD/Linux From dylanb at sympatico.ca Wed Oct 27 13:29:48 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables (Stupid Question) Message-ID: <002b01bf20a9$407478c0$9f71e2d1@default.bellglobal.com> I have done substantial work with 10BaseT and running a network over "phone cable" is not a good idea. It is called "twisted pair" for a reason. We got some garbage uncertified network cables once that caused a whole bunch of problems. Flat phone wire cable is not the way to go [it might work for you]. john -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 2:26 PM Subject: RE: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables (Stupid Question) >OK, I was pointed at http://www.linksys.com looks like they've got some >good info. However, I just noticed something that has me wondering, looks >like CAT5 only has 4 real wires made out of the 8 wires. > >So... Is it possible to run at least 10BaseT over normal phoneline cable? >It just happens that a totally unused phoneline was run a couple years ago >at the same time I had a work phone put in. > >Yes, I want to be lazy if possible. I'm assuming that if it is possible I >can make a RJ11-to-RJ45 adapter and plug one end into a hub in the house, >the other end into a hub in the garage. > > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Oct 27 13:32:56 1999 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables (Stupid Question) References: Message-ID: <38174558.8B11BBA5@mainecoon.com> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > OK, I was pointed at http://www.linksys.com looks like they've got some > good info. However, I just noticed something that has me wondering, looks > like CAT5 only has 4 real wires made out of the 8 wires. That's correct. > So... Is it possible to run at least 10BaseT over normal phoneline cable? In theory it needs to be cat3 or better. Silver satin (i.e., regular modular phone cabling) generally won't cut it due to crosstalk and environmental noise problems. > Yes, I want to be lazy if possible. I'm assuming that if it is possible I > can make a RJ11-to-RJ45 adapter and plug one end into a hub in the house, > the other end into a hub in the garage. As long as you have two idle pairs and the stuff is twisted it should be okay over short distances. In the end you may decided that it's easier to do the job well the first time rather than live with problems everytime the dishwasher fires up or you turn on the lights in the garage... Best, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Oct 27 13:38:53 1999 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables References: <991027134629.23600bc6@trailing-edge.com> <4.1.19991027112253.00b7a1b0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <381746BD.73F77AA5@mainecoon.com> Chuck McManis wrote: > The good news is that cable wiring is optimized for monkeys so people with > brains can do it, provided they avoid the temptation to think about what > they are doing. This is correct. Under no circumstances should you stop and consider the mind-numbing nature of what you're doing, otherwise you'll start looking for more rewarding projects, like getting your teeth cleaned. > There is no distance in a "normal" residential house that will exceed the > CAT5 cable limit. (1km?) For 100baseTX is far less than that; for some reason the figure of 100 meters and change sticks in my head but I'd have to check. Even so, 100 meters is more than enough for any house that I'm familiar with. > The CAT5 cable has its pairs color coded. The jacks are color coded. The > termination plugs are color coded. Match the colors and win! :-) Er, with one exception, the terminations are available in USOC, T568A and T568B; the match-the-colors game only works with the T568B color scheme. > The biggest hassle is pulling the cable. Second biggest is getting power to > the place where everything terminates. Amen, brother. Best, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 27 13:14:40 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: Ongoing excavations - PDP-8/e In-Reply-To: <19991027053136.25007.rocketmail@web607.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 26, 99 10:31:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1095 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991027/3e56da16/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 27 13:27:51 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: from "Mike Cheponis" at Oct 27, 99 00:27:55 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1294 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991027/81eb4da3/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 27 13:01:10 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: (fwd) vt180 boot disk,manual and floppy cable needed (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199910270305.XAA18395@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Oct 26, 99 11:05:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 759 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991027/df35766b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 27 13:10:38 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: (fwd) vt180 boot disk,manual and floppy cable needed (fwd) In-Reply-To: from "B'ichela" at Oct 27, 99 00:59:15 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2635 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991027/efe58665/attachment.ksh From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Oct 27 14:22:01 1999 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: Using insults when arguments fail References: Message-ID: <381750D9.A2B8C3F7@mainecoon.com> "Clint Wolff (VAX collector)" wrote: > PS My family includes: > Dad - 11/750 > Mom - uVax III (in world box) > Mom2 - uVax II (in world box) (their mormons :^) > LilSis - VaxStation II (in BA23) > Bro - uVax 3100 (headless) > Baby - uVax 2000 (headless) You should pose them for a family portrait sometime :-) Best, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Oct 27 15:32:44 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: Structural Damage Question In-Reply-To: <002501bf2072$9eea9ec0$9f71e2d1@default.bellglobal.com> Message-ID: <199910271933.VAA13248@mail2.siemens.de> > I live in a 29 story building. I have 2000 pounds of racks with CPUs in my > "lab" (a room 20' X 20'). I am going to move in another 2-3 thousand pounds > of minis as I am going through my storage and moving them up here. I am also > picking up more minis from a plant in the US. I am placing the mini racks > along the walls in the hope that there is more support there. A real serious > question I have is... Can a room in a building like this support 5000 pounds > or more? If someone here has experience with this please tell me if this is > okay. Well, I don't know exact numbers for the USA, but here a floor has to handle at least 150 kg/m^2 (~40 lbs/sqft) for basic residential housing (DIN 1045) as standard usage, and must not show any stress when loaded with 1.75 times the weight. This is defined for the whole area. For Industrial Buildings standard is set to 1000 kg/m^2 (~200 lbs/sqft) or higher, depending on the designated use. These are numbers by law. Since I assume a 29 story building had concrete floors, a usable weight for this class of building inside a 20'x20' room should include more than 15,000 lbs without any problem. Gruss H. Any (US) architect out there ? -- Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh. H.Achternbusch From lance at costanzo.net Wed Oct 27 14:42:04 1999 From: lance at costanzo.net (Lance Costanzo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables Message-ID: <3.0.32.19991027124204.0072380c@costanzo.net> At 10:41 AM 10/27/99 -0700, you wrote: >Does anyone know of any sources of info on the net anywhere on running a >network between various rooms in a house? I'm wanting to run a line >capable of handling 100BaseT from the house out to the garage, and probably >a couple other rooms in the house. It is past time to move most of the VMS >cluster out to the Garage, and tie in the parts already out there :^) Depends on how neat you want it :) Your (fill-in-blank,i.e wifey) probably won't like the exposed wire-in-the-hallway look, so I'd recommend putting them in the walls, or using paintable on-wall wiring conduit and boxes in the room corners. Pick a centralized location for your hub, and home-run all the wires there. Physically running network cable ain't no different than running phone wire, you're gonna get dirty in the attic or the crawlspace. For in-wall work, knowledge of how your house is built, a stud finder, battery powered drill, and an electricians fish tape will speed the installation process. Avoid outside walls with insulation in them. My personal common sense preference is to not have sharp right angle bends turning corners, and don't run the wires parallel with electrical cables. Since wire is cheap, you might consider running multiple cables to each outlet. Don't direct terminate with a RJ45 plug - its not worth the hassle and your cable always ends up short. Use jacks and outlet boxes/plates. In the past, I've used both Panduit no-tools jacks and 110 punchdown. The Panduit is definitely faster and easier. Lance. Lance Costanzo Advant, Inc. 1-800-824-8418 lance@advantinc.com Support Solutions for HP Systems http://www.advantinc.com From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Oct 27 14:50:24 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > That line was a -compliment- !!! I -love- reading Allison's posts! It's > the fervor that I rarely see these days, and is only rivaled by the FORTH > people! I use what I know. > > It's a compliment! Yike! ;) > p.s. The first non-discrete homebrew machine I designed was a Z80 > (ceramic package, no less!) And the first commercial machine I owned outright > was a Kaypro II. Still have one of those... yep I use that too! Allison From mdalene at home.ctol.net Wed Oct 27 15:08:04 1999 From: mdalene at home.ctol.net (B'ichela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: (fwd) vt180 boot disk,manual and floppy cable needed (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Oct 1999 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > Ok, now a question (not trying to be dumb) but HOW do I remove > > this cover? from what I can see, the cover is not attached with screws but > > rather some plastic type of clips. > > Pry them with a small screwdriver. They are a type of expanding snap > rivet. > > Allison > > Thanks, I figured that out after I wrote that message, a tiny tweak of the V-lin control fixed the screen perfectly. A pearl of wisdom from the y2K newsgroups: ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Y2K appears to be the Baby Boomers mid-life crisis, and it has the potential to be a dandy. -- Anonymnous -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- B'ichela From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Oct 27 15:37:03 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: Ongoing excavations - PDP-8/e Message-ID: <19991027203703.22781.rocketmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > Well done!. The 8/e is a machine that I like -- it's pretty easy to > understand, and an elegant instruction set... My first -8 was an -8/L. I still have it, but it currently needs more help than the -8/e. It does not have correct behavior of the front panel switches and I haven't had time to start module testing. > > ...I currently have the chassis and PSU sitting side by side on the table > > leaving me enough room for a hex-height 16K MOS card to hang over > > the side of the OMNIBUS. > > ROFL! Sounds like the sort of thing that I do :-). 'What do you mean this > configuration is not supported by Digital? It works, doesn't it' :-) It seems to work just fine, and I made a point of mentioning it for Lawrence LeMay who has an -8/e and an RL8A. The same arrangement should work for him to get it all working together without having to aquire a hex-height expansion box and OMNIBUS cables. > If you need any help, I have an RX8e + RX01 on my PDP8/e. I also have the > full prints for everything... So feel free to ask questions. I have the bound -8/e maintenance doc set, so I think I'm OK there. For now, just getting through either an OS boot or diagnostics will be the hurdle. I still haven't heard anyone cough up any info on the PR/S01 tape reader. Worst case, I'll stick a scope on it and time the start/stop bits to guess the baud rate. ISTR 2400, but I have never used this particular device. Thanks again, -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Oct 27 15:38:09 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19991027124204.0072380c@costanzo.net> from "Lance Costanzo" at Oct 27, 99 12:42:04 pm Message-ID: <199910272038.NAA08243@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1073 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991027/e9278c8d/attachment.ksh From dylanb at sympatico.ca Wed Oct 27 15:35:30 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 Message-ID: <004a01bf20ba$d1fd2f60$9f71e2d1@default.bellglobal.com> -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 3:15 PM Subject: Re: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 >> >> Gee, as much as folks like to pidgen-hole me, I'm really only trying to >> understand the performance and lure of the old iron, like vaxes, in > >I can perhaps help with the 'lure'. For me, speed is not that important >(provided it's fast enough for _what I want to do_). What is important is >having a reliable machine that I can understand, repair, and keep going. >And I find it a _lot_ easier to keep a PDP11 or an old VAX running than >to keep a PC running. Yikesl I eliminated our Vax for PCs years ago and have never had any problems! Vax was a "breakdown" nightmare... slower than NT for filesharing and DEC couldn't get "appletalk" right either. We found MAC IIs much faster even. (I toasted all the MACs in '96). Vax - Costly mother, boards expensive, service/software/license costs rediculous. Brutal learning curve for new system support employees (not everyone has a Vax at home), and of course Digitals "Unlimited Training" for a year at $5000/employee! X-Windows? Yuck.The only thing I liked was RDB (wonder WHO bought that?!??! :-) ). Foxpro was still faster. I jumped in like many other large companies and quickly junked our mainframes/minis for PCs. > >> relation to newer iron that I have or can use, and also understand better. > >Strange. I find the older machines are lot easier to understand than the >more modern ones. And _much_ better documented. > Thats not strange. Old systems USUALLY had parts and boards from a limited number of vendors, heavily tested... How many garages are knocking out video cards today!?!??!?! Old systems were easy to maintain for large sites, get a million dollars from Finance and send it to DEC! It isn't so easy now... but much easier for the end user. >> This is, unfortunatly, gobbdleygook to me. "multiples of them for parallelism"? >> Why would this be necessary? Why can't one fast one be used? > >There are good electronic reasons why you can't switch bus lines as fast >as you would like (just try sending 64 1GHz signals down a bus and >expecting them (a) not to get skewed wrt each other, (b) not to couple to >everything else in sight, and (c) not to be an EMC nightmare). > >Yes, improvements in bus design and driver/receiver technology has >allowed us to produce faster buses. But there are still limits. And then >you start using _several_ independant buses. > >-tony > From af-list at wfi-inc.com Wed Oct 27 15:41:26 1999 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables (Stupid Question) In-Reply-To: <002b01bf20a9$407478c0$9f71e2d1@default.bellglobal.com> Message-ID: Indeedy. Depending on how much data will be coursing through, YMMV. One other thing to watch is to make sure that it's solid wire cable on that phone line; watching someone try to crimp RJ45's onto stranded cable is a little like watching a monkey try to get a bananna out of a sealed mason jar... Considering how cheap Cat-5 really is to install, and how simple it is, there's no reason not to do it. If you're really sneaky, you can use that existing phone line to pull your cat5 through. If you don't already have one, *buy a fishtape*! And have someone handy to grab the tip of it as it dangles near the hole of the outlet box... Depending on the age of the house, you might need to take extra care not to hurt the insulation on existing wiring. I was helping a friend run some network cable in his (old) house and got a nice jolt by ramming the fishtape up and down to get through a cross-brace - and ended up ramming it right through the cloth insulation by the light switch. Zap! Not to mention having to rip it out and replace it... Good luck, Aaron On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, John B wrote: > I have done substantial work with 10BaseT and running a network over "phone > cable" is not a good idea. It is called "twisted pair" for a reason. We got > some garbage uncertified network cables once that caused a whole bunch of > problems. Flat phone wire cable is not the way to go [it might work for > you]. > > john > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Zane H. Healy > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 2:26 PM > Subject: RE: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables (Stupid Question) > > > >OK, I was pointed at http://www.linksys.com looks like they've got some > >good info. However, I just noticed something that has me wondering, looks > >like CAT5 only has 4 real wires made out of the 8 wires. > > > >So... Is it possible to run at least 10BaseT over normal phoneline cable? > >It just happens that a totally unused phoneline was run a couple years ago > >at the same time I had a work phone put in. > > > >Yes, I want to be lazy if possible. I'm assuming that if it is possible I > >can make a RJ11-to-RJ45 adapter and plug one end into a hub in the house, > >the other end into a hub in the garage. > > > > Zane > >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | > >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > > > > From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Oct 27 15:42:45 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables Message-ID: <991027164245.23600c6d@trailing-edge.com> >Probably should make one thing clear here, as long as it's just the one room >and the garage, I plan on simply running one cable and connecting a hub in >the house to a hub in the garage. It's fallen a bit out of fashion in the past few years, but 10Base2 (50-ohm RG58 Coax) is particularly useful for the "home runs" between twisted-pair hubs. Many twisted-pair hubs come with Coax connectors for just this purpose. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 27 15:43:15 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 In-Reply-To: <004a01bf20ba$d1fd2f60$9f71e2d1@default.bellglobal.com> from "John B" at Oct 27, 99 04:35:30 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2379 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991027/453d16e9/attachment.ksh From lance at costanzo.net Wed Oct 27 16:01:19 1999 From: lance at costanzo.net (Lance Costanzo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables Message-ID: <3.0.32.19991027140119.0074cd94@costanzo.net> At 01:38 PM 10/27/99 -0700, you wrote: >> Pick a centralized location for your hub, and home-run all the wires there. > >Probably should make one thing clear here, as long as it's just the one room >and the garage, I plan on simply running one cable and connecting a hub in >the house to a hub in the garage. Well heck, why didn't you say so! We thought you wanted to do a complete bow to stern wiring project. Since you mentioned you wanted to do this the easiest way possible, get a 50' or 100' patch cord, and connect an MDI (uplink) port on one of your hubs to a MDIX (regular) on the other. If you don't have an MDI port, then you have a couple of options: 1) If one of your hubs has an AUI port (db15, like a PC game port), just get a transceiver. 2) Make the patch cord into a crossover by cutting off one end and putting on a new plug with a different wire order. Lance Costanzo Advant, Inc. 1-800-824-8418 lance@advantinc.com Support Solutions for HP Systems http://www.advantinc.com From danburrows at mindspring.com Wed Oct 27 15:57:33 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables Message-ID: <02dd01bf20be$4bbb3ba0$d252e780@tower166.office> >>Probably should make one thing clear here, as long as it's just the one room >>and the garage, I plan on simply running one cable and connecting a hub in >>the house to a hub in the garage. > >It's fallen a bit out of fashion in the past few years, but 10Base2 >(50-ohm RG58 Coax) is particularly useful for the "home runs" between >twisted-pair hubs. Many twisted-pair hubs come with Coax connectors for >just this purpose. That is exactly what I do between the office and house. Between buildings is a little over 300 feet so by the time it goes to the hubs at each end it is easily 400+ feet. From what I recall that is a little over what the 10BaseT spec was. Considering you have your systems clustered and some are at 100BaseT I would not even consider using the old phone wire between the hubs. I agree it is a PITA to pull wire - I had a 4 inch conduit for over a year between the house and the office before I got around to pulling the thinwire through. Dan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 27 15:49:10 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: Ongoing excavations - PDP-8/e In-Reply-To: <19991027203703.22781.rocketmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 27, 99 01:37:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2230 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991027/6fc277fb/attachment.ksh From jlwest at tseinc.com Wed Oct 27 16:06:01 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: HP21MX's... Message-ID: <01ad01bf20bf$12b5a600$d402a8c0@tse.com> I think I have a line on a company that is getting ready to decommission about 20 currently in-service HP 21MX systems in the central US. If this pans out, is anyone interested (they'd be free except shipping costs)? I sure as heck wouldn't need them all.....but then again I'll keep the list posted... Jay West From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 27 15:54:06 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables In-Reply-To: <991027164245.23600c6d@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Oct 27, 99 04:42:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1402 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991027/a2f87a9e/attachment.ksh From dylanb at sympatico.ca Wed Oct 27 16:16:27 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 Message-ID: <006001bf20c0$88143aa0$9f71e2d1@default.bellglobal.com> -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 4:58 PM Subject: Re: gauging interest in VAX 6000-530 >> >I can perhaps help with the 'lure'. For me, speed is not that important >> >(provided it's fast enough for _what I want to do_). What is important is >> >having a reliable machine that I can understand, repair, and keep going. >> >And I find it a _lot_ easier to keep a PDP11 or an old VAX running than >> >to keep a PC running. >> >> Yikesl I eliminated our Vax for PCs years ago and have never had any >> problems! Vax was a "breakdown" nightmare... slower than NT for filesharing > >Strange... My minicomputers (admittedly a lot older than the VAX you were >probably running) seem to be reliable. I've had a lot more PC problems to >sort out (despite having fewer PCs than minis). > >With minicomputers, I understand them well enough to _really_ find the >fault and then fix it. That means it stays fixed. With PCs, most people >swap a card or something and the fault goes away, only to come back a >week or a month later (This is not an exaggeration. I've had faults that >disapear for a week if you do _anything_ to the machine. But they sure as >heck do come back. Normally they're a dry joint _somewhere_). I don't >beleive a machine is fixed unless I can demonstrate what caused the fault >(i.e. the bad component, dry joint, etc) and explain why it did what it >did. Only then do I know the problem won't come back. And it doesn't! > We don't have that. I standardized our hardware and no one is allowed to add anything to their computer. For the price of PC... if I find REAL lemon (constant problems) then I will throw it in the garbage. Most problems are quickly dealt with (I am not tech support - I am the Director of Research and Development) > >> and DEC couldn't get "AppleTalk" right either. We found MAC IIs much faster >> even. (I toasted all the MACs in '96). >> >> Vax - Costly mother, boards expensive, service/software/license costs > >[...] > >> >Strange. I find the older machines are lot easier to understand than the >> >more modern ones. And _much_ better documented. >> > >> >> Thats not strange. Old systems USUALLY had parts and boards from a limited >> number of vendors, heavily tested... How many garages are knocking out video > >These 2 comments (the one above the deletion and this one) make me think >that you only regard computers down to the board level. I don't. I go >down to _at least_ the gate level and sometimes beyond. > On fun time - sure... or If a hard drive has serious data on it that was NOT backed up by a user/MPP then I WILL take a whole day to go through the drive and save the data.... but I sure won't waste the taxpayers dollars pissing around with a schematic when I am supposed to be designing/managing a project which makes us cost effective. There is no advantage to any employer to have a skilled engineer fixing old broken stuff when he could be making a company profit through designs. >What this means is, when I have a fault I don't start looking for a new >board. I put the appropriate module on the extender, probe a bit with a >LogicDart and find the dead chip. And change it. And I'll probably have >it fixed before you've ordered a new board. And I'll almost certainly I doubt that very much. We have every possible board/drive in stock in many quantities for our entire line of PCs. If a unit goes down it's up very quickly or replaced. Many companies are tossing VAXes as they cannot afford to have a good chunk of the company down while someone is "probing" a board. That was cool in the 70s but we have reached a point where it is unacceptable to have anyone off-line for very long (much less an entire area). I can't even begin to tell you the number of companies I have helped toss their Vax junk for an NT/Novell set up. >have it fixed before the new board has arrived. > I do REPAIR AT THE GATE LEVEL here at home, on bad HDs on sites I support (through consulting on the side) and in rebuilding old minis for collectors for cash (a PDP 11/05 at the gate level last month, 8/s at the transistor level this month). Again, for fun. I spend some of my time at work designing at the gate level, I wouldn't waste a minute opening a bad monitor... john >-tony > From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Oct 27 16:21:17 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables Message-ID: <991027172117.23600c6d@trailing-edge.com> >Seriously, 10baseT has advantages. Particularly that a luser can't bring >a segment down by taking the wrong plug off the T-piece. Or plugging the network T straight into the "Video Out" BNC jack on the back of their VT100. Been there, seen it happen! >But for home hacking, 10base2 has the advantage that you don't need a hub >(yes, they're cheap, but it's one more thing to find power for, and it's >one more thing to fail and need repairs). You can easily add another >machine. And IMHO BNC plugs are easier to fit than RJ45s particularly >when working behind a rack. Certainly for you and me, Tony, and probably for anyone else involved in non-computer laboratory electronics, 52 ohm coax with BNC's on each end are *all over* the place! >It's up to you. Personnally, I run a mixture -- 10base2 around the main >machines, and a 10baseT hub (with a BNC on it) for a couple of 'remote' >machines. At the moment, I've got 10Base2 connecting two machines on the second floor, running down along the chimney to the basement, where it joins a twisted pair hub, runs off to a half-dozen machines and terminal servers down here. From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Wed Oct 27 16:26:16 1999 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: HP21MX's... In-Reply-To: <01ad01bf20bf$12b5a600$d402a8c0@tse.com> from Jay West at "Oct 27, 1999 04:06:01 pm" Message-ID: <19991027212621Z433392-22703+89@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > I think I have a line on a company that is getting ready to decommission > about 20 currently in-service HP 21MX systems in the central US. > > If this pans out, is anyone interested (they'd be free except shipping > costs)? I sure as heck wouldn't need them all.....but then again > > I'll keep the list posted... > Let me know when they are decomissioned, I may have room in the basement for one or two. I'm still waiting for the HP1000 system here in the city to be decomissioned, it may be a long wait. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From af-list at wfi-inc.com Wed Oct 27 16:33:20 1999 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables In-Reply-To: <991027172117.23600c6d@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Oct 1999 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > One thought just occured to me about Bruce's configuration: I think he > mentioned 100BaseT on his Alpha(s) (and maybe a PC), and he's also got > many machines that are 10BaseT. If he wants to keep his 100BaseT machines > at their "high" speed, yet connect them to his 10BaseT machines, doesn't > this mean that he needs a dual-speed switch in there too? Those aren't > particularly cheap. Maybe a better solution is to put a secondary 10BaseT > card in his modernish machines, and have a segragated 100BaseT network for > the fast stuff. 8-port 10/100 autosense switches are quite reasonable now, under $400 or so the last time I looked. It'd be the most efficient (from a network standpoint) way to go. Especially if you are accessing the 100mb machines from the 10mb machines through the switch (like getting 10 10mb doors). One thing about 100BT is that it's much more limited for the "home" user than 10BT, such as the "2-hubs per segment" rule. I've got 6 or 7 10BastT hubs spread around...whenever I need to add a node I just uplink another hub. But then I don't have a lot of machines moving a lot of data at the same time and can get away with it. I have one 10/100 switch that I use to connect newer machines (laptop to work PC connectivity, etc) and it's been fantastic. Aaron From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Oct 27 16:34:32 1999 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: HP 2114/2116 (was Re: HP21MX's...) References: <19991027212621Z433392-22703+89@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <38176FE8.25F7D16E@mainecoon.com> I've already raised my hand with Jay with respect to some of the 21MXs, but if I'm going to start down the slippery slope of adding another vendor to my collection I might as well do it in spades. Anyone know where I might find a 2114 and a 2116? How about a Vermont Data Systems drum memory unit? I'm starting to have frightening visions of a 2000B taking shape in the garage... Best, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From af-list at wfi-inc.com Wed Oct 27 16:44:59 1999 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > But for home hacking, 10base2 has the advantage that you don't need a hub > (yes, they're cheap, but it's one more thing to find power for, and it's > one more thing to fail and need repairs). You can easily add another > machine. And IMHO BNC plugs are easier to fit than RJ45s particularly > when working behind a rack. Personal experience/preference, I suppose. I don't particularly like to work with coax cable; I hate the feeling of working with it behind a desk or somewhere I can't see very well and ending up with strands of wire embedded under my fingernails. My own ineptitude with 10Base2, I know... From lance at costanzo.net Thu Oct 28 16:56:47 1999 From: lance at costanzo.net (Lance Costanzo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: Free Arcserve Parts (Was: Re: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19991028145647.007237e4@costanzo.net> This talk of 10b2 reminded me of something. I've got an arcserve hub, some cables (laying in my driveway), and about a 1/2 dozen arcserve cards in some old 5150's. I have absolutely no use or software for them. Free for the shipping (from California). Lance. Lance Costanzo Advant, Inc. 1-800-824-8418 lance@advantinc.com Support Solutions for HP Systems http://www.advantinc.com From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Oct 27 16:44:14 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables (Stupid Question) In-Reply-To: (healyzh@aracnet.com) References: Message-ID: <19991027214414.9890.qmail@brouhaha.com> > OK, I was pointed at http://www.linksys.com looks like they've got some > good info. However, I just noticed something that has me wondering, looks > like CAT5 only has 4 real wires made out of the 8 wires. "Normal" CAT5 cable has four metallic pairs. 10-Base-T and 100-Base-TX use only two of the pairs. (And not the two that you might expect.) Other physical layers (including 1000-base-Tsomething) will use four pairs. I generally recommend against trying to be cheap by putting in the minimal required number of pairs. > So... Is it possible to run at least 10BaseT over normal phoneline cable? > It just happens that a totally unused phoneline was run a couple years ago > at the same time I had a work phone put in. I've successfully run 10-base-T on two spare pairs of prewire in my condo, which probably doesn't even meet Category 2 specs. The phone wiring for the whole place is a daisy chain, except for one branch to the kitchen. The normal 10-base-T rule of thumb is that no two nodes on the same network should be separated by more than four repeaters. (An Ethernet hub is a multiport repeater.) Beyond that you're supposed to use bridges or routers. (An Ethernet switch is really a bridge.) This limit is required for several reasons, the most obvious of which is the effect of propogation delay on collision detection. However, I've gotten away with five hubs separation between some of my nodes. I haven't seen any reliability problems. I suspect that I'm within the timing requirements because my cable segments are much shorter than the specified maximum. What you *can't* get away with, though, is running 10-base-T over flat "modular" cable. It really does have to be twisted pair. Also, note that the limits for 100-base-TX are much more stringent. You can't have more than two repeaters between nodes. Fortunately small 10/100 switches are getting cheap. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Oct 27 16:46:10 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables (Stupid Question) In-Reply-To: <002b01bf20a9$407478c0$9f71e2d1@default.bellglobal.com> (dylanb@sympatico.ca) References: <002b01bf20a9$407478c0$9f71e2d1@default.bellglobal.com> Message-ID: <19991027214610.9918.qmail@brouhaha.com> John wrote: > I have done substantial work with 10BaseT and running a network over "phone > cable" is not a good idea. It is called "twisted pair" for a reason. We got True. But any decent telephone prewire is done using twisted pair (although not Cat5 or even Cat3 certified). If you have prewire with flat cable, you'll have problems even just with voice service crosstalk if you have more than one POTS line. From spc at armigeron.com Wed Oct 27 16:58:18 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: Free Arcserve Parts (Was: Re: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19991028145647.007237e4@costanzo.net> from "Lance Costanzo" at Oct 28, 99 02:56:47 pm Message-ID: <199910272158.RAA29727@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 627 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991027/6fb4c099/attachment.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Oct 27 17:15:01 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables In-Reply-To: <991027164245.23600c6d@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Oct 27, 99 04:42:45 pm Message-ID: <199910272215.PAA09336@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 599 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991027/e8a3046d/attachment.ksh From danburrows at mindspring.com Wed Oct 27 17:31:26 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables Message-ID: <032901bf20cb$11be3030$d252e780@tower166.office> > >I don't think there are any 10/100BaseT Hubs that have a 10Base2 connection >on them though, and the 10Base2-to-10BaseT adapters cost about $100-200. Easier and cheaper for most of what you have use AUI to 10BaseT transceivers. They are only $20 to $25 tops these days new. Dan From donm at cts.com Wed Oct 27 17:43:29 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: Structural Damage Question In-Reply-To: <38171888.E0E39081@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, Marvin wrote: > > > Steve Robertson wrote: > > > > Buildings are designed to withstand both "live" and "dead" loads. A "live" > > load is one where the load is not constant or is moving. IE: people, wind, > > etc... A "dead" load is a load that is constant or does not move. IE: the > > structure itself. > > > So, for a 20' X 20' room in your building the allowable load should be: > > 20 x 20 X 40(psf) = 16,000 lbs. > > Just to point out, I believe that psf (pounds per sq foot) implies the load > should be spread out and not concentrated in one corner of the room :). > Thanks for those figures; I had always figured about 50 psf as a rule of > thumb. > But likely better concentrated in the corners (or along the walls) than concentrated in the center. (Makes an assumption that the floor below is similarly laid out. - don From af-list at wfi-inc.com Wed Oct 27 17:43:54 1999 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables In-Reply-To: <199910272215.PAA09336@shell2.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > >Probably should make one thing clear here, as long as it's just the one room > > >and the garage, I plan on simply running one cable and connecting a hub in > > >the house to a hub in the garage. > > > > It's fallen a bit out of fashion in the past few years, but 10Base2 > > (50-ohm RG58 Coax) is particularly useful for the "home runs" between > > twisted-pair hubs. Many twisted-pair hubs come with Coax connectors for > > just this purpose. > > I don't think there are any 10/100BaseT Hubs that have a 10Base2 connection > on them though, and the 10Base2-to-10BaseT adapters cost about $100-200. But a small 10BaseT hub with a 10Base2 connection on it can be found for under $30. From lance at costanzo.net Thu Oct 28 17:49:06 1999 From: lance at costanzo.net (Lance Costanzo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: Free Arcserve Parts (Was: Re: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19991028154905.0074c370@costanzo.net> At 05:58 PM 10/27/99 -0400, you wrote: >It was thus said that the Great Lance Costanzo once stated: >> >> This talk of 10b2 reminded me of something. >> I've got an arcserve hub, some cables (laying in my driveway), >> and about a 1/2 dozen arcserve cards in some old 5150's. >> I have absolutely no use or software for them. >> Free for the shipping (from California). > > Is this the same as Arcnet? I would like to get my Tandy6000s networked >up and I know you can get Arcnet cards, although I've heard that the >interoperability between them and PC based arcnet cards leaves something to >be desired. My faw-paw. Yes, it is Arcnet. Arcserve is the backup software by Cheyenne. first hit out of altavista searching on arcnet: http://www.blackbox.nl/techweb/lan/arcnet/arcnet.htm >ARCnet is a Token Passing Bus, much but not exactly like IEEE802.4. It was originally developed by Datapoint Corporation >in 1977 as a hard disk interface but later used for LAN. DataPoint, Standard Microsystems Corporation (SMC) and Pure >Data are (were) the main players in the field. Lance Costanzo Advant, Inc. 1-800-824-8418 lance@advantinc.com Support Solutions for HP Systems http://www.advantinc.com From dylanb at sympatico.ca Wed Oct 27 18:03:25 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: Free Arcserve Parts (Was: Re: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables) Message-ID: <009401bf20cf$7c500000$9f71e2d1@default.bellglobal.com> -----Original Message----- From: Lance Costanzo To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 6:56 PM Subject: Re: Free Arcserve Parts (Was: Re: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables) >At 05:58 PM 10/27/99 -0400, you wrote: >>It was thus said that the Great Lance Costanzo once stated: >>> >>> This talk of 10b2 reminded me of something. >>> I've got an arcserve hub, some cables (laying in my driveway), >>> and about a 1/2 dozen arcserve cards in some old 5150's. >>> I have absolutely no use or software for them. >>> Free for the shipping (from California). >> >> Is this the same as Arcnet? I would like to get my Tandy6000s networked >>up and I know you can get Arcnet cards, although I've heard that the >>interoperability between them and PC based arcnet cards leaves something to >>be desired. >My faw-paw. >Yes, it is Arcnet. Arcserve is the backup software by Cheyenne. >first hit out of altavista searching on arcnet: >http://www.blackbox.nl/techweb/lan/arcnet/arcnet.htm >>ARCnet is a Token Passing Bus, much but not exactly like IEEE802.4. It was >originally developed by Datapoint Corporation EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEEEEEE DATAPOINT!!!!!!!!! EEEEEEEEE The legislature was filled with that , that, that , that ^&*@#^& until 1989. Datapoint had NO security. You could put a NEW printer on the network and name it the SAME as another printer already there (Xerox 4040s I think!??!?!) and EVERY job would be printed on your new printer as well as the old one and NO ONE would know. and those 345 MB drives........................................................ john >>in 1977 as a hard disk interface but later used for LAN. DataPoint, >Standard Microsystems Corporation (SMC) and Pure >>Data are (were) the main players in the field. > >Lance Costanzo Advant, Inc. 1-800-824-8418 >lance@advantinc.com Support Solutions for HP Systems > http://www.advantinc.com > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 27 17:51:38 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables In-Reply-To: from "Aaron Christopher Finney" at Oct 27, 99 02:44:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3466 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991027/3a81bc69/attachment.ksh From vaxman at uswest.net Wed Oct 27 18:42:00 1999 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: Using insults when arguments fail In-Reply-To: <381750D9.A2B8C3F7@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, Chris Kennedy wrote: > "Clint Wolff (VAX collector)" wrote: > > > PS My family includes: > > Dad - 11/750 > > Mom - uVax III (in world box) > > Mom2 - uVax II (in world box) (their mormons :^) > > LilSis - VaxStation II (in BA23) > > Bro - uVax 3100 (headless) > > Baby - uVax 2000 (headless) > > You should pose them for a family portrait sometime :-) > > Best, > Chris Until the "family" room is complete, they all live on separate floors. Mom is upstairs, Dad is on the main level, and Mom2 is in the basement... The kids are scattered on the first and second floor. For some reason, the breakers pop if I plug them all in in the same room :) clint From vaxman at uswest.net Wed Oct 27 18:46:29 1999 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables In-Reply-To: <991027164245.23600c6d@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Oct 1999 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >Probably should make one thing clear here, as long as it's just the one room > >and the garage, I plan on simply running one cable and connecting a hub in > >the house to a hub in the garage. > > It's fallen a bit out of fashion in the past few years, but 10Base2 > (50-ohm RG58 Coax) is particularly useful for the "home runs" between > twisted-pair hubs. Many twisted-pair hubs come with Coax connectors for > just this purpose. > I use 10base2 for my home network... I don't have to buy new hubs to hang new machines off it (currently I have 7 active out of 11 possible) Having to run a single cable from one machine to the next is kind of a hassle though, and routing it through (currently) unused rooms is a major hassle... You have to have two BNC jacks in each room, with a short cable between them. If I ever build a house, I'll probably run 100baset (cat 7?) wiring, or fiber to each room from a central "mechanical" room. clint From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Oct 27 19:47:52 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables In-Reply-To: References: <991027164245.23600c6d@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19991027204752.00a743f0@127.0.0.1> Rumor has it that Clint Wolff (VAX collector) may have mentioned these words: >If I ever build a house, I'll probably run 100baset (cat 7?) wiring, >or fiber to each room from a central "mechanical" room. Cat3 handles up to 10Mbit, Cat5 handles up to 100Mbit, "Enhanced Cat5" goes up to 350Mbit, and Gigabit actually uses Enhanced Cat5, as it uses all four pairs of wires - 250Mbit per pair. I plan on building next year, I'm wiring all rooms (heck, maybe even the bathrooms... ;-) with Cat5 for 100Mbit, but I also want an ArcNet bridge to the garage, barn & chickencoop if I get it built next year... 2.5Mbit over a kilometer really isn't that bad! ;-) Cheers, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From jrice at texoma.net Wed Oct 27 20:46:10 1999 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables References: Message-ID: <3817AAE2.88A86A53@texoma.net> I had the advantage of building a new house and running my cable while the walls were open but if I had to do it over again, I'd pick a bigger wiring and server closet, run 8000 ft of Cat5 instead of 4000 and putt in some fiber for future use. That small closet is getting pretty cramped as well as hot with 3 Nt boxes, a Linux box and a Quadra. I hadn't realized how much heat seven 8 port hubs generate. I'm going shopping this weekend for a small exhaust fan to relieve some of the heat. I've also had to add several network jacks on the second florr to accomidate configurations that were unplanned. James -- ICQ 2286850 Home Page http://home.texoma.net/~jrice Classic Comp Page at http://home.texoma.net/~jrice/classiccomp.html Home Network Page at http://home.texoma.net/~jrice/network.html All pages under construction! From wdg3rd at home.com Wed Oct 27 20:44:05 1999 From: wdg3rd at home.com (Ward Griffiths) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:12 2005 Subject: Using insults when arguments fail References: <381731C8.D89F5A71@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <3817AA65.1E010097@home.com> Chris Kennedy wrote: > > Mike Ford wrote: > > [stuff deleted] > > > > > I'm not a DECaholic either, whats wrong with a raised floor in the family > > room? > > Oh dear. You're suggesting there's something unusual about a raised floor > in the family room? :-) Especially when it's the only room in the house with a ceiling high enough to leave room for it. (Other than the master bedroom, I'm still negiotiating with the wife on that one...) Of course, putting in a raised floor makes it a bit tight for 96" racks, and those are the excuse for the raised floor... -- Ward Griffiths wdg3rd@home.com http://members.home.net/wdg3rd/ "It is not merely that I dislike, distrust and disbelieve anyone who seeks political office. I would extend privacy rights even to politicians were it not for two countervailing circumstances. First, they themselves violate privacy rights wholesale. They regulate virtually everything that peaceful people can do behind closed doors, from taking drugs to having sex. It is elitist hypocrisy for them to demand the privacy rights that they routinely deny to ordinary people. If a politician wishes me to respect his personal life, then he needs to respect mine." Wendy McElroy From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Oct 27 21:29:12 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: Ongoing excavations - PDP-8/e Message-ID: <19991028022912.822.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > The maintenance manuals I have don't cover the RX8e (or any floppy > drives). I have the RX01 maintenance manuals as well, which are also > pretty good. But most of the the time I rely on the printset. I do have RX01 and RX02 docs as well. > Incidentally, last time I had an RX01 problem, I stuck a KM11 diagnostic > card in the drive controller, and set it to halt on error. Didn't take > long to figure out what was going on then. I'd _love_ to have a KM11 card. > > I still haven't heard anyone cough up any info on the PR/S01 tape > > reader. Worst case, I'll stick a scope on it and time the > > start/stop bits to guess the baud rate. > Open up the tape reader (sorry, I don't have one, and I don't have the > docs). Is there a standard 40 pin UART in there (very likely to be). No 40-pin parts. All 14/16 pins. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From af-list at wfi-inc.com Wed Oct 27 22:12:08 1999 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19991027204752.00a743f0@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, Roger Merchberger wrote: > I plan on building next year, I'm wiring all rooms (heck, maybe even the > bathrooms... ;-) with Cat5 for 100Mbit, but I also want an ArcNet bridge to You're not saying there's something wrong with wiring the bathrooms, are you? Without wiring up the W.C., how could you use an SLC under the sink as a terminal to read your mail in the morning? Aaron (revealing too much about his AM habits...) From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Wed Oct 27 22:23:47 1999 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: Using insults when arguments fail In-Reply-To: <3817AA65.1E010097@home.com> from Ward Griffiths at "Oct 27, 1999 09:44:05 pm" Message-ID: <19991028032354Z434197-22702+136@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > Chris Kennedy wrote: > > > > Mike Ford wrote: > > > > [stuff deleted] > > > > > > > > I'm not a DECaholic either, whats wrong with a raised floor in the family > > > room? > > > > Oh dear. You're suggesting there's something unusual about a raised floor > > in the family room? :-) > > Especially when it's the only room in the house with a ceiling high > enough to leave room for it. (Other than the master bedroom, I'm > still negiotiating with the wife on that one...) > We used to have computers in the master bedroom (my wife is also in the computer field). We removed them after a few months, it made it too hard for one of us to sleep while the other was pulling an all nighter! -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 28 00:34:23 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: Totally OT: Netgear Hubs and Switches Message-ID: OK, another networking question since while mostly off topic (the only part about it that is on, is the computers on the network) this list seems to have a high level of networking knowledge. Anyone around here familiar with Netgear hardware? I've got one of thier 4-port 10BaseT hubs, and the main things I like about it are the size, and the lack of noise. Since it doesn't have a fan it's quiet. On the other hand my Linksys hub is noisier than anything but the StorageWorks on my VMS cluster. I swear the hub is even noisier than my PDP-11/73 in a BA123!!! My thoughts are to put the Linksys hub in the garage, and get a quiet hub for in the house. I'm currently debating either a 8-port 10/100 Switch or Hub, and leaning towards the switch which looks to be about $100 more. I think I almost forgot my point :^) Do the Netgear 8-port 10/100 Switches and Hubs have fans in them? I kind of doubt that the slimline ones have one. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From black at gco.apana.org.au Thu Oct 28 00:37:16 1999 From: black at gco.apana.org.au (Lance Lyon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: Using insults when arguments fail References: Message-ID: <005501bf2106$80978fc0$6481868b@bigpond.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ford To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Thursday, October 28, 1999 4:05 AM Subject: Using insults when arguments fail >I don't think we have any true brand zealots > in this group, but we certainly don't mind splitting a few hairs to "iron > out" the details, and that could appear to such a person as ferver. > I'll fess up, if it ain't C= it ain't a real computer :-) cheers, Lance From spc at armigeron.com Thu Oct 28 00:42:37 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: HP-HIL keyboard/mouse Message-ID: <199910280542.BAA05203@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 745 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991028/34a52f6c/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 28 00:36:41 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables In-Reply-To: <199910272215.PAA09336@shell2.aracnet.com> (healyzh@aracnet.com) References: <199910272215.PAA09336@shell2.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <19991028053641.12143.qmail@brouhaha.com> Zane wrote: > and the 10Base2-to-10BaseT adapters cost about $100-200. Sure. So just buy a five-port hub with four 10-base-T ports and one 10-base-2 port. I've seen them for around $45. The adapter you describe is completely equivalent to a two port hub or two port repeater, so buying the hub gets you more for less. From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 28 01:06:18 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables In-Reply-To: <19991028053641.12143.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <199910272215.PAA09336@shell2.aracnet.com> (healyzh@aracnet.com) <199910272215.PAA09336@shell2.aracnet.com> Message-ID: >Zane wrote: >> and the 10Base2-to-10BaseT adapters cost about $100-200. > >Sure. So just buy a five-port hub with four 10-base-T ports and one >10-base-2 port. I've seen them for around $45. > >The adapter you describe is completely equivalent to a two port hub or >two port repeater, so buying the hub gets you more for less. Rub it in why don't you :^/ I wish I could remember WHY I didn't do that a year ago, I hope there was a good reason. I remember cursing the fact I couldn't get a 10/100 hub with that. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 28 01:09:16 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: Using insults when arguments fail In-Reply-To: <005501bf2106$80978fc0$6481868b@bigpond.com> References: Message-ID: >>I don't think we have any true brand zealots >> in this group, but we certainly don't mind splitting a few hairs to "iron >> out" the details, and that could appear to such a person as ferver. > >I'll fess up, if it ain't C= it ain't a real computer :-) > >cheers, > >Lance That's OK, I HATE Computers, especially Personal Computers! On the other hand I rather like Mac's and DEC PDP's, VAXen, and Alpha's. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Oct 28 05:35:25 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables (Stupid Question) In-Reply-To: <19991027214610.9918.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <002b01bf20a9$407478c0$9f71e2d1@default.bellglobal.com> (dylanb@sympatico.ca) Message-ID: >John wrote: >> I have done substantial work with 10BaseT and running a network over "phone >> cable" is not a good idea. It is called "twisted pair" for a reason. We got > >True. But any decent telephone prewire is done using twisted pair >(although not Cat5 or even Cat3 certified). > >If you have prewire with flat cable, you'll have problems even just >with voice service crosstalk if you have more than one POTS line. My house was wired with "bell wire" not twisted pairs. I have no voice problems, but it explained years of poor modem and fax connections. Not much I can do about it in a practical sense, pulling all new wire in a condo to increase the modem connection isn't worth it, but it sure is on my list of stuff to check for in a new house. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Oct 28 06:22:57 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables In-Reply-To: References: from "Aaron Christopher Finney" at Oct 27, 99 02:44:59 pm Message-ID: >thin spaanners makes life a lot easier. If you're using RJ45 wallplates >with punchdown blocks, get a good punchdown tool (they're not expensive). Last time I was in Fry's the cheapo punchdown tools were $35, and the nice Harris tool was close to $75. Maybe that could go along with my inexpensive under $400 10/100 switch . >Put nut and rubber seal over cable > >Remove about 3/4" of outer jacket > >Fan out the shield over the end of the jacket Ditto I would not dream of the above, well actually I "might" dream about it, but I am sure I would wake up screaming. ;) Cheap and lazy are the two principals that guide my life, and I am reluctant to part from them. This means if I have to pull a wire through walls its going to be high grade CAT5, because in the long run that is the cheapest and laziest way to do it. My "network plan" doesn't currently include 100bt, and I would be interested in some comments about what I will be missing. My assumption as I make the leap from years of happy 230 kbps Apple LocalTalk, is that 10 Mbps ethernet will leave no great longing in my heart. I have a hodge podge of machines, and intend a network to match. 10bt between the newest hardware, although most of the NICs will be 10/100, so I could be convinced to put a layer of 100bt in, but not until I can "find" a cheap 10/100 switch (hint: it will be less than $400). The fast machines will go to a hub that is either directly or through some "firewall" Linux 486 type box to my neato cable modem and the rest of the world. From the "fast" machines hub (which will physically be located near the living room and AV stuff) I plan on linking two other hubs, one in my office, and one in my garage. Both of the secondary hubs will likely have both a 10b2 and via Shiva FastPaths a LocalTalk segment attached to them. I have a LOT of old macs (maybe 100), and while most of them will NEVER be used by me (just machines passing through my hands), more than a dozen likely will be, and coax NICs for nubus are dirt cheap, and more importantly the NICs for the machines like the LCs or SE/30s are worth more than the computers in 10bt. I really look forward to doing interesting things at the lowest end, with IIgs and old Mac Pluses hooked to the net via LocalTalk (the FastPaths will "tunnel" TCP/IP packets over LocalTalk using some standard Apple protocol even on the old Pluses). In general this will not be a "working" network, but a fun network, and a learning place to try network things. Backups, and doing installs on "fresh meat" systems is about as serious as I have in mind, with the bulk of the use for Internet access, and playing games etc. over the local network. From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Oct 28 07:24:11 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: Fwd: SGI Challenge XL for sale in the UK Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991028072411.01c41d40@vpwisfirewall> >Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 10:20:45 +0100 >From: "Andy Booth" >To: >Subject: SGI Challenge XL for sale > >Hi > Thought you may be interested in this (or know someone who is :) ). > >Located in the UK, specification: > >16 150 MHZ IP19 (MIPS R4400) processors >2.0 GB System disk >Main memory 1025 MB 4-way interleaved >8 4.3GB disk drives >3 1.2GB disk drives >QIC 150MB 1/4 inch Tape drive >CDROM > >Powerstor Unit containing >9 2.4GB Disk drives >2 1.2GB disk drives >4 8mm Exabyte Tape drives (each 5GB) >1/2 " HP tape drive > >The hinv reads: > >16 150 MHZ IP19 Processors >CPU: MIPS R4400 Processor Chip Revision: 5.0 >FPU: MIPS R4000 Floating Point Coprocessor Revision: 0.0 >Data cache size: 16 Kbytes >Instruction cache size: 16 Kbytes >Secondary unified instruction/data cache size: 1 Mbyte >Main memory size: 1024 Mbytes, 4-way interleaved >I/O board, Ebus slot 15: IO4 revision 1 >Integral EPC serial ports: 4 >Interphase 4210 VME-SCSI controller 0: Firmware revision A05 >Disk drive: unit 14 on VME-SCSI controller 0 >Disk drive: unit 13 on VME-SCSI controller 0 >Disk drive: unit 12 on VME-SCSI controller 0 >Disk drive: unit 11 on VME-SCSI controller 0 >Disk drive: unit 10 on VME-SCSI controller 0 >Disk drive: unit 9 on VME-SCSI controller 0 >Disk drive: unit 8 on VME-SCSI controller 0 >Tape drive: unit 6 on VME-SCSI controller 0: 9 track >Disk drive: unit 5 on VME-SCSI controller 0 >Disk drive: unit 4 on VME-SCSI controller 0 >Disk drive: unit 3 on VME-SCSI controller 0 >Disk drive: unit 2 on VME-SCSI controller 0 >Disk drive: unit 1 on VME-SCSI controller 0 >Disk drive: unit 0 on VME-SCSI controller 0 >Interphase 4210 VME-SCSI controller 1: Firmware revision A05 >Tape drive: unit 11 on VME-SCSI controller 1: 8mm(8500) cartridge >Tape drive: unit 10 on VME-SCSI controller 1: 8mm(8500) cartridge >Tape drive: unit 9 on VME-SCSI controller 1: 8mm(8500) cartridge >Tape drive: unit 8 on VME-SCSI controller 1: 8mm(8500) cartridge >Disk drive: unit 6 on VME-SCSI controller 1 >Disk drive: unit 5 on VME-SCSI controller 1 >Disk drive: unit 4 on VME-SCSI controller 1 >Disk drive: unit 3 on VME-SCSI controller 1 >Disk drive: unit 2 on VME-SCSI controller 1 >Disk drive: unit 1 on VME-SCSI controller 1 >Disk drive: unit 0 on VME-SCSI controller 1 >Integral Ethernet controller: et0, Ebus slot 15 >EPC external interrupts >Integral SCSI controller 1: Version WD33C95A, differential, revision 0 >Integral SCSI controller 0: Version WD33C95A, single ended, revision 0 >CDROM: unit 6 on SCSI controller 0 >Tape drive: unit 5 on SCSI controller 0: QIC 150 >Disk drive: unit 3 on SCSI controller 0 >Disk drive: unit 2 on SCSI controller 0 >Disk drive: unit 1 on SCSI controller 0 >Integral SCSI controller 4: Version SCIP/WD33C95A >Integral SCSI controller 3: Version SCIP/WD33C95A >Disk drive: unit 11 on SCSI controller 3 >Disk drive: unit 10 on SCSI controller 3 >Disk drive: unit 9 on SCSI controller 3 >Disk drive: unit 8 on SCSI controller 3 >Integral SCSI controller 2: Version SCIP/WD33C95A >Disk drive: unit 7 on SCSI controller 2 >Disk drive: unit 6 on SCSI controller 2 >Disk drive: unit 5 on SCSI controller 2 >Disk drive: unit 4 on SCSI controller 2 >CC synchronization join counter >Integral EPC parallel port: Ebus slot 15 >VME bus: adapter 0 mapped to adapter 61 >VME bus: adapter 61 > >IRIX 5.3 and Networker 4.0 > >Price: Open to offers! > >Cheers >Andy Booth >andy@mirai.net From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Oct 28 07:38:50 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: Hey, I have a bunch of network stuff In-Reply-To: <19991028053641.12143.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <199910272215.PAA09336@shell2.aracnet.com> (healyzh@aracnet.com) <199910272215.PAA09336@shell2.aracnet.com> Message-ID: I suspect a lot of people on the list are in some stage of the same situation that I am in, buying has exceeded personal usage. Very often a "pallet" is cheaper to buy than one or two items off it, but what do you do with the rest of the stuff. Building shelves was my first instinct, but at some point selling it to other people is the only ray of light into otherwise insanity. With all of this networking talk, I have to mention that as much as my general packrat habits are obviously known, my "main" focus is on networking stuff and old macs/apples. Long ago this passed the stage of just getting the stuff I need, becoming just short of Mike's warehouse, where I am the "vendor" of choice to fair number of people and schools. Since this list is about as noncommercial as they get, I will just mention what I typically have and interested people may contact me off list. I am very interested in what sorts of things other people on the list, for lack of a better word, carry in "stock". I'd rather buy from friends than Fry's. Macs, lots and lots of old macs, mac parts, and to a lesser extent the Apple II series, and larger PS/2s (OK, I have 17 PS/2 model 95s ;). A LOT of NICs, some for PS/2, a few PCI or ISA, but dozens both new in the box, and pulls for all sorts of older macs. PhoneNet and LocalTalk adapters and cables, a dozen or so Shiva FastPath ethernet/LocalTalk bridges, and a couple dozen of the very neat Shiva NetSerials (puts a serial port on a AppleTalk network). Ethernet and LocalTalk printer adapters and network bridges. Along with the above, boxes of cables (CAT5, LocalTalk, Twinax, etc.), various hubs, and most recently several punchblock/CAT5 things like outlets and those panels with a dozen to I think 48 CAT5/RJ45 outlets. Email me if you are looking for something, maybe I will even update a web page. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Oct 28 09:36:26 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: Original Macintosh Message-ID: Brian Kane has an original Mac with many accessories (carrying bag, modem) that he's interested in selling. Please contact him directly. Reply-to: DREXELINT@aol.com Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. VCF East? VCF Europe!? YOU BETCHA!! Stay tuned for more information or contact me to find out how you can participate http://www.vintage.org From edick at idcomm.com Thu Oct 28 10:06:52 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: NorthStar FDC Message-ID: <001f01bf2156$2abe93a0$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> I got a question the other day, and it was one about which I have no clue. A friend glommed onto an IMSAI box with a North Star disk subsystem, the FDC for which is a model MDS-A4. He wants to know about whether it is capable of handling 8" drives. I didn't think to ask whether it had a 50-pin cable header on it. That would have been too easy. My recollection is that NorthStar systems had a hard-sectored 5-1/4" drive, usually from Micropolis, attached, and that one was pretty dense, but wouldn't do CP/M-standard (IBM-3740 SSSD) diskettes. Is that the case with this controller? Dick From kmar at lle.rochester.edu Thu Oct 28 10:24:49 1999 From: kmar at lle.rochester.edu (Ken Marshall) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: HP-HIL keyboard/mouse In-Reply-To: <199910280542.BAA05203@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991028112141.00a640d0@popserver.lle.rochester.edu> At 01:42 AM 10/28/1999 -0400, you wrote: > > >So my question is, where can I pick up two HP-HIL keyboard/mice for cheap? >Othersise, two very nice machines are just sitting here, doing nothing but >holding down the carpet. > > -spc (And that 21' color monitor isn't doing me any good either ... ) > Sean: I have several HP-HIL keyboards and mice from 9000 series systems. You can have two of each for the price of shipping. Just let me know where to send them Regards, Kenneth L. Marshall Research Engineer, Optical Materials Laboratory for Laser Energetics University of Rochester 250 East River Road Rochester, NY 14623 Phone:(716)-275-8247 Fax: (716)-275-5960 From edick at idcomm.com Thu Oct 28 10:30:43 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables Message-ID: <002e01bf2159$7db3bb00$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> I'll reaffirm that! My 10BT LJ3 is attached to my NETWARE lan via coax and the rest of the LAN uses 100BTx or coax. The 10BT is provided by a HUB connected to the coax segment via one of those little AUI <=> coax adapters. These slightly larger than a small matchbox devices are often just lying on the ground or in a junk box at your local computer-junk-dealers' place It's often cheaper to offer $5 for a box of stuff containing one or more of these plus a bunch of stuff you probably won't need than to pick it out and offer to buy just the adapter. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Daniel T. Burrows To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 4:52 PM Subject: Re: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables >> >>I don't think there are any 10/100BaseT Hubs that have a 10Base2 connection >>on them though, and the 10Base2-to-10BaseT adapters cost about $100-200. > > >Easier and cheaper for most of what you have use AUI to 10BaseT transceivers. >They are only $20 to $25 tops these days new. > >Dan > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Oct 28 10:46:13 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: Totally OT: Netgear Hubs and Switches Message-ID: <003701bf215b$90af2080$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> I've got three of their FA310 adapters and a 4-port FE104 hub for my 100BTx segment. It's cheap, though there are cheaper ones, and the adapters work at both 10 and 100 Mb rates. The hub does not handle both speeds, though, and it does not do full duplex. I don't think the adapters do full duplex either. I've been satisfied with this hardware, since it was cheap a couple of years ago when I got it (boards were under $40 and hub was $175. It's true, the hub is really small (abut 1/10 the size of my Thomas Conrad hub) but it does require externally transformed power. If you can justify it, a switching hub, capable of full duplex would perhaps be nicer, since you then don't have to string two hubs where one will do. It really does depend on the size of your LAN, though. A switching hub enables you to unify your setup onto a single logical segment so, unlike my setup, you only need one adapter in each box. I have two in the server, one for fast ethernet, and one for standard. When I started out, I had 15 stations, 1 Netware server, 3 boxes running Win/DOS, Win9x,NT, (interchangeably) and 11 running versions of *nix. I've eliminated all the *nix boxes and replaced them with a single one running NT or whatever is on the interchangeable drive. It's been 2-3 months since the last time I booted one of the *nix setups. With them out of the picture, the LAN is much more manageable. The only problem is finding a TCP/IP handler for DOS that isn't bigger than the NETWARE shell. If it's 500 bytes bigger, my essential DOS applications don't work for lack of low memory. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 11:35 PM Subject: Totally OT: Netgear Hubs and Switches >OK, another networking question since while mostly off topic (the only part >about it that is on, is the computers on the network) this list seems to >have a high level of networking knowledge. > >Anyone around here familiar with Netgear hardware? I've got one of thier >4-port 10BaseT hubs, and the main things I like about it are the size, and >the lack of noise. Since it doesn't have a fan it's quiet. On the other >hand my Linksys hub is noisier than anything but the StorageWorks on my VMS >cluster. I swear the hub is even noisier than my PDP-11/73 in a BA123!!! > >My thoughts are to put the Linksys hub in the garage, and get a quiet hub >for in the house. I'm currently debating either a 8-port 10/100 Switch or >Hub, and leaning towards the switch which looks to be about $100 more. > >I think I almost forgot my point :^) Do the Netgear 8-port 10/100 Switches >and Hubs have fans in them? I kind of doubt that the slimline ones have >one. > > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From edick at idcomm.com Thu Oct 28 11:00:22 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables Message-ID: <00d201bf215d$8b5f0a80$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> The adapters are a good solution for habitual scroungers, since they come cheap, but dual speed hubs solve the problem handsomely. They use the signaling voltage to distinguish between the standard and fast ethernet connections and happily route to both connection types. Unfortunately that may have some drawbacks, e.g. now your unified segment ( the dual speed hub does that ) operates at either speed, but at an aggregate rate equivalent to the slower. I use separate segments for the fast and standard ethernets, though I have a single segment consisting of standard ethernet on RG58 and twisted pair via a hub which is attached through one of those little AUI<=>coax adapters. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Daniel T. Burrows To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 4:52 PM Subject: Re: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables >> >>I don't think there are any 10/100BaseT Hubs that have a 10Base2 connection >>on them though, and the 10Base2-to-10BaseT adapters cost about $100-200. > > >Easier and cheaper for most of what you have use AUI to 10BaseT transceivers. >They are only $20 to $25 tops these days new. > >Dan > From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Oct 28 11:08:20 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: What's an RX01 drive worth to a commercial user? Message-ID: <19991028160820.10431.rocketmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> I just got a call from a place I used to work (Lucent). They have a bad RX01 drive and want to buy a replacement. I have more than one, and I can get their bad one as part of the deal. The problem is what to charge? I have absolutely no idea what a reasonable price is to deliver a working drive and haul away the broken one. Any suggestions? -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Oct 28 11:07:12 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: NorthStar FDC In-Reply-To: <001f01bf2156$2abe93a0$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Oct 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I got a question the other day, and it was one about which I have no clue. > A friend glommed onto an IMSAI box with a North Star disk subsystem, the FDC > for which is a model MDS-A4. He wants to know about whether it is capable > of handling 8" drives. I didn't think to ask whether it had a 50-pin cable > header on it. That would have been too easy. My recollection is that > NorthStar systems had a hard-sectored 5-1/4" drive, usually from Micropolis, > attached, and that one was pretty dense, but wouldn't do CP/M-standard > (IBM-3740 SSSD) diskettes. Is that the case with this controller? Run 8 inch drives - no, at least I've never seen it done. The controller has a 36 pin header. Drives - hard sectored yes (10 sector), but not Micropolis. Normally Shugart SA-400's. And no, the format is nowhere near the IBM-3740 spec... I had to write a set of low-level device drivers for the North*Star controller once upon a time... It is a unique (and frustrating) beast... -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Oct 28 12:07:08 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: NorthStar FDC In-Reply-To: <001f01bf2156$2abe93a0$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991028120708.3bdf7988@mailhost.intellistar.net> Dick, I have an Altair that came with a North Star MDS-A disk controller and Shugart SA-400 5.25" disk drives. The disks are hard sectored (10 sectors). I have the manual for the MDS-A card and it does specify the SA-400 drives. There's no mention of using any other drives, either 5.25" or 8". Joe At 09:06 AM 10/28/99 -0600, you wrote: >I got a question the other day, and it was one about which I have no clue. >A friend glommed onto an IMSAI box with a North Star disk subsystem, the FDC >for which is a model MDS-A4. He wants to know about whether it is capable >of handling 8" drives. I didn't think to ask whether it had a 50-pin cable >header on it. That would have been too easy. My recollection is that >NorthStar systems had a hard-sectored 5-1/4" drive, usually from Micropolis, >attached, and that one was pretty dense, but wouldn't do CP/M-standard >(IBM-3740 SSSD) diskettes. Is that the case with this controller? > >Dick > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Oct 28 11:21:44 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: What's an RX01 drive worth to a commercial user? In-Reply-To: <19991028160820.10431.rocketmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991028092001.04275500@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> The resellers will probably ask between $200 and $700 for a replacement RX01 drive. You can also use the "on line quotation" system that some have but that often leads to getting a lot of mail from them later. --Chuck At 09:08 AM 10/28/99 -0700, you wrote: > The problem is what to charge? I have absolutely no idea what a > reasonable price is to deliver a working drive and haul away the > broken one. From jrice at texoma.net Thu Oct 28 11:37:07 1999 From: jrice at texoma.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: Totally OT: Netgear Hubs and Switches References: Message-ID: <38187BB2.1676728B@texoma.net> No they don't but they do tend to run hot. james "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > OK, another networking question since while mostly off topic (the only part > about it that is on, is the computers on the network) this list seems to > have a high level of networking knowledge. > > Anyone around here familiar with Netgear hardware? I've got one of thier > 4-port 10BaseT hubs, and the main things I like about it are the size, and > the lack of noise. Since it doesn't have a fan it's quiet. On the other > hand my Linksys hub is noisier than anything but the StorageWorks on my VMS > cluster. I swear the hub is even noisier than my PDP-11/73 in a BA123!!! > > My thoughts are to put the Linksys hub in the garage, and get a quiet hub > for in the house. I'm currently debating either a 8-port 10/100 Switch or > Hub, and leaning towards the switch which looks to be about $100 more. > > I think I almost forgot my point :^) Do the Netgear 8-port 10/100 Switches > and Hubs have fans in them? I kind of doubt that the slimline ones have > one. > > Zane > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From edick at idcomm.com Thu Oct 28 12:02:26 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: HELP! ( totally OT) - Hitachi Monitor problem Message-ID: <000401bf2166$368f3940$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Hopefully someone will know about this . . . I've got this really "comfortable" 20" monitor (Hitachi CM2085) which developed a rapidly fluctuating left and right margin, which apparently is related to its pincushion controls in some way. Not being in any sense expert in repairing monitors, I fooled around with the various accessible controls, (after removing the plastic outer shell) such as "side-pin" among others, and managed to get the horizontal line length to remain relatively stabile, though the screen now has a huge pincushion distortion, which I can make go away somewhat, but when it's gone, the rapid left/right margin fluctuation comes back, though somewhat differently than before. Is anyone familiar enough with this monitor or with monitors of this type to make any kind of suggestion which might help alleviate this problem? thanx Dick From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Oct 28 12:00:34 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: What's an RX01 drive worth to a commercial user? In-Reply-To: <19991028160820.10431.rocketmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >I just got a call from a place I used to work (Lucent). They have a bad >RX01 drive and want to buy a replacement. I have more than one, and I can >get their bad one as part of the deal. The problem is what to charge? I >have absolutely no idea what a reasonable price is to deliver a working drive >and haul away the broken one. > >Any suggestions? > >-ethan Why would you want to charge Lucent a "reasonable" price? ;) I would call a few of the legacy support outfits, then cut their price by whatever percent feels right to you. Your not exactly doing a "small" service for them either. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Oct 28 12:08:31 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: Totally OT: Netgear Hubs and Switches Message-ID: <19991028170831.20993.rocketmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> --- Richard Erlacher wrote: > I've got three of their FA310 adapters and a 4-port FE104 hub for my 100BTx > segment. It's cheap, though there are cheaper ones, and the adapters work > at both 10 and 100 Mb rates. The hub does not handle both speeds, though... > > ...I've been satisfied with this hardware... > If you can justify it, a switching hub, capable of full duplex would perhaps > be nicer, since you then don't have to string two hubs where one will do. I have other brands of NICs but a 100% NetGear infrastructure... an EN108, 8-port 10BaseT hub with 10Base2/AUI port on the back (only one works at a time); an FE104, 100BaseT hub (currently not in use); and an FS108, 10/100 switch. *That's* the one you want. It should be available for under $200. It supports full duplex either by negotiation (for newer stuff) or by force via configuration switches (for older stuff). All of this stuff is tiny with external wall warts. I like their stuff a lot. If you don't want a big 10/100 switch, there is also a FS102 and FS104, two and four port switch, respectively. I recommend switches over autosensing hubs. They tend to pack more buffer RAM and allow independent collision domains, permitting better network utilization under higher loads. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Oct 28 12:17:31 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: What's an RX01 drive worth to a commercial user? Message-ID: <19991028171731.20103.rocketmail@ web605.yahoomail.com> --- Mike Ford wrote: > >I just got a call from a place I used to work (Lucent). They have a bad > >RX01 drive and want to buy a replacement. > > Why would you want to charge Lucent a "reasonable" price? ;) Well... reasonable cuts both ways. Perhaps I should have said, "I want to gouge them, but not so much they buy one from someone else... how bad can I make it hurt?" Is that better? ;-) > I would call a few of the legacy support outfits, then cut their price by > whatever percent feels right to you. In progress. I've sent several mails out to various places I do business with. I don't have phone numbers handy. > You're not exactly doing a "small" service for them either. Very much true. I did mention that installation would be available for an hourly rate. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Oct 28 12:16:30 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: NorthStar FDC In-Reply-To: <001f01bf2156$2abe93a0$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Message-ID: > for which is a model MDS-A4. He wants to know about whether it is capable > of handling 8" drives. I didn't think to ask whether it had a 50-pin cable NO WAY. It would be very difficult to mod for any other hard sector format or 8" drives. > header on it. That would have been too easy. My recollection is that > NorthStar systems had a hard-sectored 5-1/4" drive, usually from Micropolis, > attached, and that one was pretty dense, but wouldn't do CP/M-standard Shugart or Tandon, rarely micropolus unless added later by the owner. > (IBM-3740 SSSD) diskettes. Is that the case with this controller? You need a soft sectord controller for that. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Oct 28 12:19:02 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: What's an RX01 drive worth to a commercial user? In-Reply-To: <19991028160820.10431.rocketmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: What traffic will support. I'd go for $100 . FYI the old one is very likely just a dirty head or missing pressure pad if it's not a power problem. Allison On Thu, 28 Oct 1999, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I just got a call from a place I used to work (Lucent). They have a bad > RX01 drive and want to buy a replacement. I have more than one, and I can > get their bad one as part of the deal. The problem is what to charge? I > have absolutely no idea what a reasonable price is to deliver a working drive > and haul away the broken one. > > Any suggestions? > > -ethan > > > > ===== > Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. > Please send all replies to > > erd@iname.com > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com > From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu Oct 28 12:28:17 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: Field Service charges In-Reply-To: from Mike Ford at "Oct 28, 1999 10: 0:34 am" Message-ID: <199910281728.NAA00515@pechter.dyndns.org> > >I just got a call from a place I used to work (Lucent). They have a bad > >RX01 drive and want to buy a replacement. I have more than one, and I can > >get their bad one as part of the deal. The problem is what to charge? I > >have absolutely no idea what a reasonable price is to deliver a working drive > >and haul away the broken one. > > > >Any suggestions? > > > >-ethan > > Why would you want to charge Lucent a "reasonable" price? ;) > > I would call a few of the legacy support outfits, then cut their price by > whatever percent feels right to you. Your not exactly doing a "small" > service for them either. The going industry Field Service rate in my DEC and third party days was $130/hr. I've heard the current rate is $160/hour. Here's my old Field Service take. You can figure out what percent of that they'd be willing to pay (sometimes they'll dump the hardware instead of fix it... sometimes the piece is so important to to operations they'll pay almost anything. Figure in the swap price on the drive and you can just figure the current hourly rate. I figure $50 should be your bare minimum labor rate on this -- for your time and effort. However, sometimes that can be offset by you getting a pile of scrapped out hardware in exchange. The other issue is warrantee... If you're charging third party or DEC service rates, you have to provide similar guarantee of replacement of the drive for infant mortality, etc. If you're just doing a favor and installing the swap drive as a friendly (cost recovery+expenses) issue than the pricing is quite different. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From dylanb at sympatico.ca Thu Oct 28 12:35:19 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: What's an RX01 drive worth to a commercial user? Message-ID: <00cd01bf216a$ce2144c0$3071e2d1@default.bellglobal.com> -----Original Message----- From: Ethan Dicks To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, October 28, 1999 1:21 PM Subject: Re: What's an RX01 drive worth to a commercial user? > > >--- Mike Ford wrote: >> >I just got a call from a place I used to work (Lucent). They have a bad >> >RX01 drive and want to buy a replacement. >> >> Why would you want to charge Lucent a "reasonable" price? ;) > >Well... reasonable cuts both ways. Perhaps I should have said, "I want to >gouge them, but not so much they buy one from someone else... how bad can >I make it hurt?" Is that better? ;-) > I wonder if they will make YOU *hurt* when they go to get rid of the equipment they have. I have always dealt with people and companies in a very reasonable manner not to gouge or hurt them as good sales to a company in need has usually brought excellent returns. As for individuals, nothing can yield more vintage systems than not gouging or taking advatnage of a person in need. I am still getting MANY offers to purchase transistors computers today because I chose not to gouge these same factories/companies in the past. I have put many systems in schools (never museums) even up to some recent donations which included a Singer mini from the 50's with acoustic memory -- in return I have received 1130 stuff (which I scrapped for $$) and many other mini parts. Companies and people will only treat you as well as you have treated them... john >> I would call a few of the legacy support outfits, then cut their price by >> whatever percent feels right to you. > >In progress. I've sent several mails out to various places I do business >with. I don't have phone numbers handy. > >> You're not exactly doing a "small" service for them either. > >Very much true. I did mention that installation would be available for >an hourly rate. > >-ethan > > > >===== >Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. >Please send all replies to > > erd@iname.com >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com > From ken_g at MailAndNews.com Thu Oct 28 15:49:28 1999 From: ken_g at MailAndNews.com (Ken Guenther) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: looking for punch cards Message-ID: <3819F91C@MailAndNews.com> Does anyone know where I can buy some of the old IBM Hollerith 80 column punch cards? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. Ken Guenther ken_g@mailandnews.com From bobstek at ix.netcom.com Thu Oct 28 12:48:19 1999 From: bobstek at ix.netcom.com (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: NorthStar FDC In-Reply-To: <001f01bf2156$2abe93a0$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Message-ID: The N* controller was for 5.25" floppies only - Shugarts and later Tandons were popular. The only board (AFAIK) capable of handling N* hard-sector and 8" soft-sector was made by Morrow and used in their Decision I S-100 box. I bought one after selling my N* and was thrilled to have support for my old N* disks as well as soft-sectored 5.25" floppies. Bob Stek bobstek@ix.netcom.com Saver of Lost SOLs -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Richard Erlacher Sent: Thursday, October 28, 1999 11:07 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: NorthStar FDC I got a question the other day, and it was one about which I have no clue. A friend glommed onto an IMSAI box with a North Star disk subsystem, the FDC for which is a model MDS-A4. He wants to know about whether it is capable of handling 8" drives. I didn't think to ask whether it had a 50-pin cable header on it. That would have been too easy. My recollection is that NorthStar systems had a hard-sectored 5-1/4" drive, usually from Micropolis, attached, and that one was pretty dense, but wouldn't do CP/M-standard (IBM-3740 SSSD) diskettes. Is that the case with this controller? Dick From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Oct 28 14:25:57 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: What's an RX01 drive worth to a commercial user? Message-ID: <19991028192557.20924.rocketmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> --- John B wrote: > >Well... reasonable cuts both ways. Perhaps I should have said, "I want to > >gouge them, but not so much they buy one from someone else... how bad can > >I make it hurt?" Is that better? ;-) > > > > I wonder if they will make YOU *hurt* when they go to get rid of the > equipment they have. I used to work there. I *can't* get the cool stuff out. All of it goes in containers to scrappers. They have a room with three 11/44's, TC11's on each and several TU55's. I was unable to get any cooperation in rescuing any of it when the room gets emptied. I watched as a box with 100+ UNIBUS boards was loaded onto a forklift, core boards on top. It all went to the melter. They are a large company with inflexible large company policied. I have no pity for Lucent. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Oct 28 14:29:21 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: What's an RX01 drive worth to a commercial user? Message-ID: <19991028192921.6022.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> --- allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > What traffic will support. I'd go for $100 . My research reveals that the going rate is $250 - $300 from a reseller. > FYI the old one is very likely just a dirty head or missing pressure pad if > it's not a power problem. They have already diagnosed the problem to a transistor on the upper board (you know, the ones that heat up enough to discolor the circuit board). I guess they just don't want to mess with the problem. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Oct 28 14:27:44 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: What's an RX01 drive worth to a commercial user? In-Reply-To: <19991028192557.20924.rocketmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> from Ethan Dicks at "Oct 28, 1999 12:25:57 pm" Message-ID: <199910281927.TAA07075@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > > --- John B wrote: > > >Well... reasonable cuts both ways. Perhaps I should have said, "I want to > > >gouge them, but not so much they buy one from someone else... how bad can > > >I make it hurt?" Is that better? ;-) > > > > > > > I wonder if they will make YOU *hurt* when they go to get rid of the > > equipment they have. > > I used to work there. I *can't* get the cool stuff out. All of it goes in > containers to scrappers. They have a room with three 11/44's, TC11's on > each and several TU55's. I was unable to get any cooperation in rescuing > any of it when the room gets emptied. TU55's ?? Now you're making me mad. > > I watched as a box with 100+ UNIBUS boards was loaded onto a forklift, core > boards on top. It all went to the melter. Core on top... I would be really mad, if I wasnt stunned by this.. > > They are a large company with inflexible large company policied. I have no > pity for Lucent. > > -ethan > -Lawrence LeMay From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 28 14:27:29 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: What's an RX01 drive worth to a commercial user? References: <19991028192557.20924.rocketmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <99102815281903.03666@vault.neurotica.com> On Thu, 28 Oct 1999, Ethan Dicks wrote: >I used to work there. I *can't* get the cool stuff out. All of it goes in >containers to scrappers. They have a room with three 11/44's, TC11's on >each and several TU55's. I was unable to get any cooperation in rescuing >any of it when the room gets emptied. > >I watched as a box with 100+ UNIBUS boards was loaded onto a forklift, core >boards on top. It all went to the melter. > >They are a large company with inflexible large company policied. I have no >pity for Lucent. Then, by all means, gouge them so hard that they won't be able to sit down for a week! -Dave McGuire From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 28 13:14:33 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: Ongoing excavations - PDP-8/e In-Reply-To: <19991028022912.822.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 27, 99 07:29:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1039 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991028/35c92b85/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 28 13:37:45 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: HELP! ( totally OT) - Hitachi Monitor problem In-Reply-To: <000401bf2166$368f3940$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> from "Richard Erlacher" at Oct 28, 99 11:02:26 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1818 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991028/0c4fb70c/attachment.ksh From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Oct 28 16:02:36 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: Ongoing excavations - PDP-8/e In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Oct 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > I'd _love_ to have a KM11 card. > > Make one!. I've posted the instructions to this list (and other places) > before, and I'll post them again if anyone is interested. I'm interested! -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Oct 28 17:05:54 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: need docs for N* Z-80A processor board Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991028170554.22ff1f3e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Help! I have a partially finished N* z-80A processor card. Does anyone have docs for this so that I can finish it? It's a model ZPB-A2. Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 28 16:06:27 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: Ongoing excavations - PDP-8/e In-Reply-To: from "James Willing" at Oct 28, 99 02:02:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5793 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991028/12efab27/attachment.ksh From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Oct 28 16:25:36 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: Buck Savage? Message-ID: <4.1.19991028172247.00ac6100@206.231.8.2> Hey gang, I need to contact William Buckley, AKA Buck Savage, but email bounces from the last known address I have on file. Has anyone heard of him recently and could get me in touch with him? Thanks for your help! Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 28 16:15:29 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: buying commercial scrap In-Reply-To: <19991028192557.20924.rocketmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> (message from Ethan Dicks on Thu, 28 Oct 1999 12:25:57 -0700 (PDT)) References: <19991028192557.20924.rocketmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <19991028211529.17027.qmail@brouhaha.com> > I used to work there. I *can't* get the cool stuff out. All of it goes in > containers to scrappers. Most large corporations have a list of companies from whom they solicit bids for large items and lots being scrapped. You need to get onto their list. Call their accounting department to find out about it. Don't bother telling them you're a former employee, it won't help. Oh, and make sure you give a company name. They often won't deal with individuals. Be aware that they will NOT break up lots. You'll have to bid on the entire lot, and dispose of the stuff you don't want. They may require that you sign paperwork guaranteeing that you will dispose of everything in an EPA-approved manner. From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Oct 28 16:37:24 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: What's an RX01 drive worth to a commercial user? In-Reply-To: <19991028192557.20924.rocketmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991028172756.00aaa570@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 12:25 PM 10/28/99 -0700, Ethan Dicks said something like: > > >--- John B wrote: >> >Well... reasonable cuts both ways. Perhaps I should have said, "I want to >> >gouge them, but not so much they buy one from someone else... how bad can >> >I make it hurt?" Is that better? ;-) >> > >> >> I wonder if they will make YOU *hurt* when they go to get rid of the >> equipment they have. > >I used to work there. I *can't* get the cool stuff out. All of it goes in >containers to scrappers. They have a room with three 11/44's, TC11's on >each and several TU55's. I was unable to get any cooperation in rescuing >any of it when the room gets emptied. > >I watched as a box with 100+ UNIBUS boards was loaded onto a forklift, core >boards on top. It all went to the melter. > >They are a large company with inflexible large company policied. I have no >pity for Lucent. Agreed. I watched as a whole pallet of really nice IC's (DAC's, ADC's, Z80B's, LSTTL, etc., etc.) went into the dumpster at work with the company Comptroller standing close keeping his myopic evil eye on the rest of us irritated engineers as we were watching in disgust. It was inventory excess, obsolete material, etc. and the company beancounters wanted to destroy it as a tax write-off. The company only had 180 employees. Even small is brainless :-) Sheesh. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From dylanb at sympatico.ca Thu Oct 28 16:42:48 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: What's an RX01 drive worth to a commercial user? Message-ID: <015201bf218d$60ba7140$3071e2d1@default.bellglobal.com> -----Original Message----- From: Ethan Dicks To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, October 28, 1999 3:19 PM Subject: Re: What's an RX01 drive worth to a commercial user? > > >--- John B wrote: >> >Well... reasonable cuts both ways. Perhaps I should have said, "I want to >> >gouge them, but not so much they buy one from someone else... how bad can >> >I make it hurt?" Is that better? ;-) >> > >> >> I wonder if they will make YOU *hurt* when they go to get rid of the >> equipment they have. > >I used to work there. I *can't* get the cool stuff out. You have to pay something for the equipment.. more than the scrappers. You told me yourself you don't like to pay much for any of this equipment - and companies don't put up with that. I have dealt with many very large companies and they ALWAYS sell to the highest bidder (I haven't lost a system to a scrapper yet). If they still won't give up the equipment for scrap(never happened to me yet) then go to a local high school and get them to type up a request letter. I have NEVER had any corporation turn down a high school for scrap equipment. Generally you can work out in the letter that you will help the school get *some* of the equipment and make it useful for them to use. I had a case where Ontario Paper had not approved a piece of equipment for disposal yet. (a REAL old 1950's mini). After receiving the letter they released the mini to the school and asked me to take everything else in case I could make it run for other schools. Bottom line is if you get on the bidder list with the asset disposal people then you should never lose a system unless you are bidding too low. Companies do not care about "rescuing"..... >All of it goes in >containers to scrappers. They have a room with three 11/44's, TC11's on >each and several TU55's. I was unable to get any cooperation in rescuing >any of it when the room gets emptied. > >I watched as a box with 100+ UNIBUS boards was loaded onto a forklift, core >boards on top. It all went to the melter. > >They are a large company with inflexible large company policied. I have no >pity for Lucent. > >-ethan > > >===== >Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. >Please send all replies to > > erd@iname.com >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com > From bobstek at ix.netcom.com Thu Oct 28 16:51:34 1999 From: bobstek at ix.netcom.com (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: need docs for N* Z-80A processor board In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19991028170554.22ff1f3e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: I've got docs (and probably Allison, too!) I'll look tonight and see how far down in the stack they are buried. Bob Stek bobstek@ix.netcom.com Saver of Lost SOLs -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Joe Sent: Thursday, October 28, 1999 1:06 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: need docs for N* Z-80A processor board Help! I have a partially finished N* z-80A processor card. Does anyone have docs for this so that I can finish it? It's a model ZPB-A2. Joe From dudley7 at ix.netcom.com Thu Oct 28 16:53:23 1999 From: dudley7 at ix.netcom.com (dudley7@ix.netcom.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:13 2005 Subject: I'm interested in any of your commodore PETs Message-ID: <1999102817505156334@ix.netcom.com> Hey, I saw you ad at a flea market website, about commodore PETs, and was wondering if you were still selling any? Write Back, -Jonathan- From edick at idcomm.com Thu Oct 28 16:48:27 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: HELP! ( totally OT) - Hitachi Monitor problem Message-ID: <001001bf218e$437559a0$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> please see embedded comments below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, October 28, 1999 2:37 PM Subject: Re: HELP! ( totally OT) - Hitachi Monitor problem >> >> Hopefully someone will know about this . . . I've got this really >> "comfortable" 20" monitor (Hitachi CM2085) which developed a rapidly >> fluctuating left and right margin, which apparently is related to its >> pincushion controls in some way. > > >Well, I know I don't have the service data for this one. And it's >somewhat unusual for such problems ot be related ot the pincushion >circuitry -- more often it's related to the hsync stuff -- the PLL (if it >uses one) isn't locking, something like that. > Having attempted to locate a source of service data for this beastie for over four months, during which time it sat on the floor of my already overcrowded computer room, where I, mobility-handicapped as I am, had to step around it, I decided to look at the adjustments. This fault came about VERY gradually, having been noticeable during the warmup phase for a couple of years, but until more recently, when the duration of this problem grew to over half an hour, I figured that it might be in some way related to the aging process. Like most CRT's it has several hundred electrolytic cap's, and I'm loath to remove them all so they can be tested, though it may come down to that. I bought this thing in late '93 and it was manufactured in '91, so I have to assume it's aged a bit. The individual scan lines seemed to change both randomly and rapidly, from one to the next, in width, giving a jittering effect to the margins. On a monitor of this size it's not easy to see both margins simultaneously, but it apears that when the left margin jitters to the right, the right margin jitters to the left. Now that I've fiddled with the adjustments to such extent that the jittering is completely gone, the screen has a very substantial pincushion, somewhat more pronounced on the left than the right, though the display is VERY stabile. The width control on the front of the monitor currently has no effect. I find I'm unable to restore the conditions to their original state, not that it would help. There are a few adjustments I've not seen before. A couple, such as side-pin, Hsize, and Vsize have a second adjustment called "sub.-whichever" e.g. sub. side-pin, etc. These seemed to work in pairs with the normal adjustment. I'm baffled as to why the front panel controls don't have the same effects as before. Since I paid out a couple of K-bucks, albeit nearly 7 years ago, (mostly because I like this monitor) I'm loath to scrap it. A prefectly good new monitor of comparable size, brightness, focus, linearity (and weight), etc. costs about $400 nowadays, unless one wants to pay for the name. It's surprising that one can't easily order service documents for these monitors, but I guess it's my inability to understand how business is done these days. >> Not being in any sense expert in repairing monitors, I fooled around with >> the various accessible controls, (after removing the plastic outer shell) > >I've never been a believer in tweaking adjustments. If a device stops >working, then some component has failed, and an adjustment is not going >to bring it back. > >On the other hand, as here, sometimes seeing the effect of adjustments >can narrow down the fault area. But it's normal to need a schematic for this. > >> such as "side-pin" among others, and managed to get the horizontal line >> length to remain relatively stabile, though the screen now has a huge >> pincushion distortion, which I can make go away somewhat, but when it's >> gone, the rapid left/right margin fluctuation comes back, though somewhat >> differently than before. >> >> Is anyone familiar enough with this monitor or with monitors of this type to >> make any kind of suggestion which might help alleviate this problem? > >First thought -- a dried up capacitor somewhere which is allowing 2 >circuits to couple. Say that's injecting PSU ripple or horizontal scan >ripple (a lot of supplies probably come from the flyback transformer) >into some power line somewhere. > >I'd start (given that you don't have any service data) by testing all the >electrolytics with an ESR meter. > >-tony > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 28 16:57:29 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: HELP! ( totally OT) - Hitachi Monitor problem In-Reply-To: <001001bf218e$437559a0$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> from "Richard Erlacher" at Oct 28, 99 03:48:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2628 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991028/80e432f5/attachment.ksh From rcini at email.msn.com Thu Oct 28 17:58:00 1999 From: rcini at email.msn.com (rcini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables References: Message-ID: <009701bf2197$e64abfe0$01c8a8c0@office1> Zane: I've done this in my house. I have a server closet with an NT Server, workstation, and print server. All bedrooms have Cat5 connectors going to Hubbel baseboard jacks. Most rooms are also wired for cable and telephone. IIRC, there's no secret to running the cable, just cross AC wires at right angles, and the maximum run is something like 330 feet per drop, don't come within 3 feet of a fluorescent fixture, and separate in-wall UTP jacks from an AC outlet by at least one stud. Also, workstation cables are limited to 10 feet and patch cables to 20 feet. I use the T568B color scheme. Should be no problem in your house, unless you're Bill Gates :-) Rich ----- Original Message ----- From: Zane H. Healy To: Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 1:41 PM Subject: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables > Does anyone know of any sources of info on the net anywhere on running a > network between various rooms in a house? I'm wanting to run a line > capable of handling 100BaseT from the house out to the garage, and probably > a couple other rooms in the house. It is past time to move most of the VMS > cluster out to the Garage, and tie in the parts already out there :^) > > Zane > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 28 18:02:09 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Running CAT5 Cables In-Reply-To: <009701bf2197$e64abfe0$01c8a8c0@office1> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Oct 1999, rcini wrote: > Should be no problem in your house, unless you're Bill Gates :-) I heard that Gates' new house has 3 foot thick walls to provide easier service access inside the walls. But does it have raised floors? From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Oct 28 18:41:15 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: need docs for N* Z-80A processor board Message-ID: <199910282341.TAA29409@world.std.com> Remember a while back I posted about a company in Richardson, Texas, with a bounty of crap to give away? Well, they still have it and they are more desperate than ever to get rid of it. Last time I posted a list of stuff. I'm posting that list again, but the list has grown (and I don't know what's been added). To get in on this, simply send e-mail to David Albright at and work out the details with him. I'm sure they will not be interested in shipping anything unless you are willing to compensate them well for their time (this is a business that is not very interested in becoming a vintage computer vendor). It would be best if you could actually go to their business to pick the stuff up. Please respond directly to David Albright . Here is the list: Texas Instruments 1500 (1 bay) Archive tape drive 8-port TI hub Texas Instruments 1500 (8 bay) Archive tape drive 8-port TI hub Texas Instruments 300 Business System Terminal Texas Instruments Business System 300 (blows fuse after a minute) IBM PC/XT w/System/36 interface board IBM PC monochrome display IBM System/36 Desktop (Type 5364) ADP PC/AT (no P/S) ADP MAX 8500 (dead) Archive tape drive (2) 4-port networking hubs Motorola SYS3304NY151 Archive tape drive Texas Instruments System 1000 Archive 150MB tape drive TI System V Xemix 386 by SCO Manuals Texas Instruments System 1000 (3) NEC N4810II modem (2) Racal-Vadic VA212 audto-dial modem, AC adapter, cables, manuals DIS System 36 (bad hard drive) IBM monitor CITOH 8510 printer Texas Instruments Omni 800 printer Sperry IT (PC/AT with SCO Xenix) Unisys color monitor The company wants to ditch this stuff soon so act fast or else it might be scrapped. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. VCF East? VCF Europe!? YOU BETCHA!! Stay tuned for more information or contact me to find out how you can participate http://www.vintage.org From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Oct 28 19:13:47 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: Looking for Kai Kaltenbach Message-ID: Will Kai Kaltenbach please contact me? sellam@siconic.com Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. VCF East? VCF Europe!? YOU BETCHA!! Stay tuned for more information or contact me to find out how you can participate http://www.vintage.org From cmcmanis at freegate.com Thu Oct 28 19:33:51 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: ReGIS Clock? Message-ID: <4.1.19991028173255.0406cd30@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Does anyone have a pointer to source code to the "ReGIS Clock" (displayed an analog clock using ReGIS graphics on the Pro, GIGI, etc) --Chuck From edick at idcomm.com Thu Oct 28 20:08:02 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: HELP! ( totally OT) - Hitachi Monitor problem Message-ID: <004401bf21aa$0cd66f80$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> please see embedded comments below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, October 28, 1999 4:23 PM Subject: Re: HELP! ( totally OT) - Hitachi Monitor problem >> >Well, I know I don't have the service data for this one. And it's >> >somewhat unusual for such problems ot be related ot the pincushion >> >circuitry -- more often it's related to the hsync stuff -- the PLL (if it >> >uses one) isn't locking, something like that. >> > >> Having attempted to locate a source of service data for this beastie for >> over four months, during which time it sat on the floor of my already >> overcrowded computer room, where I, mobility-handicapped as I am, had to >> step around it, I decided to look at the adjustments. This fault came about >> VERY gradually, having been noticeable during the warmup phase for a couple >> of years, but until more recently, when the duration of this problem grew to >> over half an hour, I figured that it might be in some way related to the >> aging process. > >THis really does sound like a failing electrolytic capacitor. I've had >them behave oddly when cold, or behave oddly when warm or... > >> >> Like most CRT's it has several hundred electrolytic cap's, and I'm loath to >> remove them all so they can be tested, though it may come down to that. I >> bought this thing in late '93 and it was manufactured in '91, so I have to >> assume it's aged a bit. > >Somtimes you can check the ESR with the capacitor in-circuit. The main >exception is when it's shunted by an inductor or another low DC >resistance path IIRC. > >I don't own an ESR meter yet, but it's certainly on my list of things to >get/build. From what I've heard they're a great time-saver for doing repairs. > >> It's surprising that one can't easily order service documents for these >> monitors, but I guess it's my inability to understand how business is done >> these days. > >Hey _I'm_ the one that flames about not being able to get service >information for everything I own. Last time I ranted on about this you >pointed out a number of good reasons why such information might not be >available. > It's like getting the service manual for a car of the same vintage, except that when a car is this old, it's just starting to cause little problems and the third-party repair manuals are available everywhere. In the electronics business, there have never been really decent repair manuals from 3rd parties, except maybe for TV's, of which I've never had one break. Unfortunately, as the prices of these commodities drop, the level of expectation to which the vendors respond drops as well. These days, you can get a really decent 20" monitor for $400 or less. When it breaks, it's unlikely you'll get anyone to fix it for less than the price of a new one. If you want a schematic of a 7-year-old TV set, I doubt it's readily available either. I've never had a monitor repaired successfully by a "professional" working at an "authorized" repair center. I sent in a very nice NEC monitor which had some wierd malfunction in the power management hardware which caused it to drop out at random times, then refuse to come on again for weeks at a time. The service center couldn't fix that. The monitor cost $879 new, and was still in warranty, as it turned out (they give you a 2-year warranty and perform no outgoing inspection, apparently) so when I phoned the NEC people, they sent me a new one via FedEx, and really didn't demand even that I return the old one. I had a similar experience with a DELL monitor with the same problem, except that the monitor wasn't mine. The problem was the same, and the response was the same. A new monitor over night, no demand for the original one. I guess the shipping cost is too high to warrant repairing them. > >Although it's hard to imagine anything particularly clever/unusual in a >standard colour monitor. Most monitors that I've worked on use pretty >much standard circuitry. > That's what puzzles me about the color displays I have sitting about. There aren't many that look even remotely similar beyond the most superficial observation. Not one has a flyback transformer, and all the current-generation multisync types use some encapsulated device about 4x6x1" or so to effect the power management functions. > >More likely, the company is worried that you'll either hurt yourself or >damage the unit if you have a go at fixing it. No, I'm not happy about >this -- IMHO if I pull the cover and fiddle around then it's _my_ >responsibility if I do damage to the unit or to myself. And I'm more >likely to do such damage _without_ a service manual (people who know me >know full well that the lack of a service manual is not a reason for me >not to dive into something). But trying to explain this to the company is >generally a waste of time. > In view of the fact they don't want the broken/defective ones back, that must be their logic. >-tony > From jpl15 at netcom.com Thu Oct 28 23:53:39 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: need docs for N* Z-80A processor board In-Reply-To: <199910282341.TAA29409@world.std.com> Message-ID: > I have three copies of the N* ZPB-A Manual, 2 from 1977 marked Revision 3 and one (in blue and white N* logo binding) dated 1977, 1978, 1979, 1980. One of the 1977 is part num 25005 and the company address is 2547 Ninth St, Berkeley, CA. The other 1977 is part 25006 and the addr is 1440 Fourth St, Berkeley. The blue-bound manual is 25006B, addr 14440 Catalina St, San Leandro, CA. None of these seem to have the -A2, however... is this important, trivial, no matter? I don't know. If the original poster will contact me off-list, I will be pleased to send you one of these manuals to refer to and/or copy and return to me. I have two complete N* S-100 systems, with all docs and a *ton* of software on floppies. Will consider trades for PDP-11 stuff, in the SoCal area. Cheers John From jpl15 at netcom.com Thu Oct 28 23:55:39 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: SoCal TRW Swap Message-ID: Should anyone care... TRW is this Saturday. Mike Ford will send his Agent. Brunch might be. Need directions? Ask. Cheers John PS: Terse! From gregorym at cadvision.com Fri Oct 29 00:53:07 1999 From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: IBM 9370 Mainframe Specs? Message-ID: <000601bf21d1$e204a560$98b8fea9@hal-9000-2> There is an IBM 9370 Mainframe coming available in my area, and I'm considering acquiring it (never had my own mainframe to play with). I haven't been able to find much on the Web about this family of systems. Can anyone point me to some info or confirm/deny the following facts: System produced: circa 1986 - 1988 Intended market: "departmental mainframe", 20-100 users Operating system: VM/SE Dimensions: Refridgeratorish Weight: 300 lb racks; 200-300 lb processor assembly; drives ??? Typical peripherals: DASD drives, high-volume, heavy printers (500 lbs +), tape drives, PS/2 consoles Networking: ASCII subsystem for terminals, Ethernet? Power and Cooling requirements: 3 phase power (240 V)?? I suspect that this system will be too large for my available space; is anyone else in or near Western Canada interested in the system in whole or in part? Thanks for any help. Mark Gregory From Jgzabol at aol.com Fri Oct 29 03:15:36 1999 From: Jgzabol at aol.com (Jgzabol@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: looking for punch cards Message-ID: <0.858da6cd.254ab1a8@aol.com> At least here in Germany they are still manufactured and can be bought at the manufacturer, minimum amount 20,000 pieces, price around US$ 250 for the 20,000 pieces. I am going to order some soon, so if you can't find them easier, I could add your requirements to my purchase. Keep in mind that in bulk they are heavy, shipping cost will be probably more than buying cost. Regards John G. Zabolitzky In einer eMail vom 28.10.99 18:50:11 MEZ, schreiben Sie: << Does anyone know where I can buy some of the old IBM Hollerith 80 column punch cards? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. Ken Guenther ken_g@mailandnews.com >> From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Oct 29 03:06:31 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: SoCal TRW Swap In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Should anyone care... TRW is this Saturday. > > > Mike Ford will send his Agent. > > Brunch might be. > > Need directions? Ask. > > Cheers > >John > >PS: Terse! Mike Ford just might actually be there in person. ;) I am working on a deal with one of the regular sellers, a guy named Cesar, who brought 5 Crown M600 amps in "untested" condition to Cal Poly Pomona, and I didn't have time to try and deal with them. ($375 for the lot, but 92 lbs each and as is when I was late already didn't work out). Do you have any suggestions on Crown (a couple were branded Omega Delta, but looked the same except for leds on the front panel instead of a big meter) amps in as is condition? Unfortunately I will need to be back on the road to either Huntington Beach or Norwalk for an auction starting at 10 am. I do plan on getting there EARLY this time though. My appologies for not getting back to you on that pentium rack mount computer, but the 3 ring circus of selling an extra house has failed to end with escrow (ignore the lack of a contractors license at great peril). I haven't had a chance to more than peek at each of the three units I have, but no telling when I will make it out to TRW again. Here is what I know for now. http://s2.mitac.com.hk/english/icp/index-chassis.html has the same model to what I have MCH-201 (and a visually the same WorkStation 2000), but I don't know about details that might have changed over time (these are 2 or 3 years old). They are configured roughly as follows, no hard drives in any of them, if they had lids, they don't anymore, all with Sparkle 250 watt power supplies, and what looks like a normal AT layout. WorkStation 2000 Most complete unit with a P133 on the motherboard, trident video, 2x32 MB ram, a cache simm, a few metal parts (fingers to hold down cards?), front door not attached, but present, and no "cage" for floppy or hard drive. WorkStation 2000 Bare motherboard inside, door attached, but I have no keys for the darn doors. Mitac MCH-201 No motherboard, but has the only drive cage, currently with a single 3.5 floppy drive installed. No door, but has the hinges. If one of those, or a variation like removing a motherboard appeals to you, lets see if we can hash it out before 5 am Sat. ;) (I hate pricing this stuff, so lets go back an forth a bit if you don't mind). BTW I'll bring you out that RL02 I mentioned gratis regardless. Cheers, Mike Ford (seriously sleepy, and many replies to go ;) From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Oct 29 04:29:16 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: HP-HIL keyboard/mouse In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991028112141.00a640d0@popserver.lle.rochester.edu> References: <199910280542.BAA05203@armigeron.com> Message-ID: >I have several HP-HIL keyboards and mice from 9000 series systems. You can >have two of each for the price of shipping. Just let me know where to send >them I was in a place yesterday with a two rack HP 9000 and the guy was telling me he gets $5k for them to ISPs (he says they upgrade to current systems easily). Is he full or it or what? BTW there must have been 5 pallets of Apollo 700's waiting to be scrapped, all apparently from Sun in northern CAL. Aviion setting waiting too. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Oct 29 04:46:25 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: SoCal TRW Swap In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Mike Ford just might actually be there in person. ;) >Cheers, Mike Ford (seriously sleepy, and many replies to go ;) I plead the last line in defense of posting to the list instead of privately. From Andy.Keeble at Royal-London-ins.co.uk Fri Oct 29 05:04:54 1999 From: Andy.Keeble at Royal-London-ins.co.uk (Keeble, Andy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: IBM 9370 Mainframe Specs? Message-ID: I asked on of our system programmers, where I work, because we used to have one. This is what he said:- The dates and market appear reasonable. Ours was running VM/SP and then VM/XA. Refrigerator size is right (including disk arrays). Ours had a S370 channel and an ASCII subsystem. Hope that is of some help > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Gregory [SMTP:gregorym@cadvision.com] > Sent: Friday, October 29, 1999 6:53 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: IBM 9370 Mainframe Specs? > > There is an IBM 9370 Mainframe coming available in my area, and I'm > considering acquiring it (never had my own mainframe to play with). > I haven't been able to find much on the Web about this family of systems. > Can anyone point me to some info or confirm/deny the following facts: > > System produced: circa 1986 - 1988 > Intended market: "departmental mainframe", 20-100 users > Operating system: VM/SE > Dimensions: Refridgeratorish > Weight: 300 lb racks; 200-300 lb processor assembly; drives ??? > Typical peripherals: DASD drives, high-volume, heavy printers (500 lbs +), > tape drives, PS/2 consoles > Networking: ASCII subsystem for terminals, Ethernet? > Power and Cooling requirements: 3 phase power (240 V)?? > > I suspect that this system will be too large for my available space; is > anyone else in or near Western Canada interested in the system in whole or > in part? Thanks for any help. > > Mark Gregory > From guerney at uq.net.au Fri Oct 29 06:20:43 1999 From: guerney at uq.net.au (Phil Guerney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: HP9845B - Monitor? Message-ID: <001901bf21ff$acb84dc0$bb0b64cb@default> I've just been given a HP9845B. But I was told the monitor had long ago been broken and thrown away. There was a brief discussion on the list about this last giant HP desktop calculator/computer back in March and April this year. There is still almost nothing useful I can find on the web about it. The monitor appears to connect to the body by two combined mechanical/electrical connectors, sort of "monitor leg bases", protruding from the top of the case. The rest of the unit appears to be in good shape. I have to clean it and check it out before trying to apply power, but is there any other way of getting a monitor output from this thing, other than from its own monitor - I suspect it will be hard to find another one of those? The only other thing I have for it is a HPIB connector cable. Any other hints appreciated. I never expected to find one of these, but it was high on my wanted list. I clearly remember going to a presentation by HP at the University I was working at in 1979 or 1980 where one of these was the star attraction, and I still have the brochure for the 9845 from that day. Now for the 9815..25..35 etc! Phil Brisbane, Australia. From wrm at ccii.co.za Fri Oct 29 07:11:16 1999 From: wrm at ccii.co.za (Wouter de Waal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: My new toys: Apollo and Osborne 1 Message-ID: <199910291211.OAA27459@ccii.co.za> Hi all Scored some nice new toys, an Osborne 1, and two Apollo workstations, a 3000 and a 3500, with one mono monitor. The 3000 has the following boards: Clearpoint memory card, 72 x 4256 chips (8M?) 8496 rev 01 (4M memory) 8157 Rev 03 (19" mono video adaptor) 7831 rev 0, 5885 rev 4, 5891 rev 4 (Ring Adaptor board set) Western digital MFM/floppy controller (I think) and a MFM 86MB drive, and a floppy (The floppy is loose, don't know if it's original. NEC FD1155C. 1.8 degrees/step stepper, so it's 80 track, probably 720K, or 800, whatever. I also have the monitor that goes with this machine. The 3500 has the following: 9988 rev 3 memory card (no idea of it's size) 3com ethernet card 9016 (RGB video adaptor) WD7000 scsi/hdd controller tape drive unknown Unfortunately I don't have the RGB cable or the monitor. Questions: * Can I use the mono display adaptor in the 3500? Can I run one of these boxen without a display card, or do they check like peecees? * How ISA compatible is the ISA bus? Can I stick a VGA card in there and expect it to work (OK, I know I'll have to write the code (port the VGA BIOS) but I mean electrically? Or an IDE controller? * Where can I find memory maps, circuit diagrams, whatever? * How rare are these beasts? I gather they're common? Any objections to me ripping out all the cards and the boot rom, sticking vmebug in the socket, and an IDE drive in the bay, and playing with the thing? re the Osborne 1 : where do I find a boot disk image, what format is it, and how can I write one on a peecee? ISTR a program that writes all these formats, I'll probably have to go dig up a 360k floppy drive, yes? Thanks Wouter From simmiv at ozemail.com.au Fri Oct 29 07:58:36 1999 From: simmiv at ozemail.com.au (Simmi Valgeirsson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: IBM 9370 Mainframe Specs? Message-ID: <01BF2261.2BD4C640@simmi_two> This sounds like the 9373 Entry Level 370 System. It should have a type/model designation on it.. You can go to http://www.ibmlink.ibm.com/ and select the Unites States IBMlink and check the sales manual.. It has a listing of all the different models of the 9370 and their capability.. It has an ASCII console which required an IBM PC with specially loaded software to configure the system. Rgds, Simmi -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2104 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991029/239ecd1e/attachment.bin From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Oct 29 08:58:57 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: HP9845B - Monitor? In-Reply-To: <001901bf21ff$acb84dc0$bb0b64cb@default> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991029085857.233ff6e6@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi Phil, I have three 9845Bs and to put it bluntly, you're screwed! There's no way to connect another monitor to the 9845 that I know of. The monitors are one of the weak points in the 9845s. They have a nasty habit of going up in smoke (literally!) I've been looking for a 9845C (color version) for over two years and only found two of them. The monitors on both of them caught fire and burnt up! Your best bet is to hold unto the 9845 and hope that you can find another one that has a working monitor. E-mail if you have more questions. I do have a pile of manuals and software for the 9845s. Joe Oviedo, Florida. At 09:20 PM 10/29/99 +1000, you wrote: >I've just been given a HP9845B. But I was told the monitor had long ago >been broken and thrown away. > >There was a brief discussion on the list about this last giant HP desktop >calculator/computer back in March and April this year. There is still almost >nothing useful I can find on the web about it. > >The monitor appears to connect to the body by two combined >mechanical/electrical connectors, sort of "monitor leg bases", protruding >from the top of the case. The rest of the unit appears to be in good shape. >I have to clean it and check it out before trying to apply power, but is >there any other way of getting a monitor output from this thing, other than >from its own monitor - I suspect it will be hard to find another one of >those? The only other thing I have for it is a HPIB connector cable. > >Any other hints appreciated. > >I never expected to find one of these, but it was high on my wanted list. I >clearly remember going to a presentation by HP at the University I was >working at in 1979 or 1980 where one of these was the star attraction, and I >still have the brochure for the 9845 from that day. Now for the 9815..25..35 >etc! > >Phil >Brisbane, Australia. > > > From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Oct 29 10:18:56 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: What's an RX01 drive worth to a commercial user? Message-ID: <19991029151856.3749.rocketmail@web607.mail.yahoo.com> --- John B wrote: I wrote: > >I used to work there. I *can't* get the cool stuff out. > > > You have to pay something for the equipment.. more than the scrappers. No... I mean I _can't_ get it out. I would have to bid for *all* scrap from a plant the size of 22 football fields. They are a large company with a large company mentality: all or nothing. Rules are rules. etc, etc. They don't part this stuff out by lots, they bid out all the work to one company (whose name I've never been able to learn or I'd just go right to them). > Companies do not care about "rescuing"..... Very much true. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri Oct 29 11:58:10 1999 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: What's an RX01 drive worth to a commercial user? Message-ID: <001501bf222e$c83acd00$0e72e2d1@default> -----Original Message----- From: Ethan Dicks To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, October 29, 1999 11:14 AM Subject: Re: What's an RX01 drive worth to a commercial user? > > >--- John B wrote: >I wrote: >> >I used to work there. I *can't* get the cool stuff out. >> >> >> You have to pay something for the equipment.. more than the scrappers. > >No... I mean I _can't_ get it out. I would have to bid for *all* scrap from >a plant the size of 22 football fields. They are a large company with a >large company mentality: all or nothing. Rules are rules. etc, etc. That's terrible. I have dealt with a lot of companies and scrappers and haven't found a company as nasty as that yet. I guess you will have to take the scrapper out for drinks....... john > >They don't part this stuff out by lots, they bid out all the work to one >company (whose name I've never been able to learn or I'd just go right to >them). > >> Companies do not care about "rescuing"..... > >Very much true. > >-ethan > > >===== >Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. >Please send all replies to > > erd@iname.com >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com > From mike.welsh at sjsd.k12.mo.us Fri Oct 29 12:26:10 1999 From: mike.welsh at sjsd.k12.mo.us (Mike Welsh) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: Apple IIGS and Harddrive Message-ID: <3.0.32.19991029122604.006bc194@sjsd.k12.mo.us> Just got a harddrive, external SCSI with card. I would like to hook this up to my Apple IIGS. I have downloaded Apple IIGS OS 6.0.1 from the Apple site. When I boot the computer with disk 1 of the OS, I get an error to check startup devices. I get this even when I don't have the SCSI card in the computer. The disks are formatted MAC, do they need to be formatted ProDOS?, Apple IIGS specific, or? thanks From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Oct 29 13:04:20 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: What's an RX01 drive worth to a commercial user? In-Reply-To: <19991029151856.3749.rocketmail@web607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991029135208.00aabbd0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 08:18 AM 10/29/99 -0700, Ethan Dicks said something like: > > >--- John B wrote: >I wrote: >> >I used to work there. I *can't* get the cool stuff out. >> >> >> You have to pay something for the equipment.. more than the scrappers. > >No... I mean I _can't_ get it out. I would have to bid for *all* scrap from >a plant the size of 22 football fields. They are a large company with a >large company mentality: all or nothing. Rules are rules. etc, etc. > >They don't part this stuff out by lots, they bid out all the work to one >company (whose name I've never been able to learn or I'd just go right to >them). Yep. That would be a bit much for you to bid upon Ethan . . . Hmmm, finding the scrap contractor sounds like a lead. I assume you now don't have any good aquaintances still working anywhere in that Lucent plant otherwise you probably would have mentioned doing some investigation thru them. But what about looking outside the company? Do you know any kind of scrappers who could be informed of Scrap Bid Requests from Lucent? Do you have any friends who are close to scrappers and could act as a contact for you? The computer items you mentioned that are to be on the 'doomed' list seem way too good to not try a roundabout method of accessing them :( > >> Companies do not care about "rescuing"..... > >Very much true. Very few companies I know of nowadays seem to not even have the slightest hint of care about such things as "rescuing" with which they cannot directly have any monetary advantage. Good luck. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From ss at allegro.com Fri Oct 29 13:04:36 1999 From: ss at allegro.com (ss@allegro.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: sparemaker Message-ID: <199910291804.LAA03037@opus.allegro.com> Re: > Okay... Before this degrades into a major thread of how badly AMF fubar'd > Harley Davidson, I'm going to declare a winner as seen in the following: > > At 10:28 AM 10/26/1999 -0700, ss@allegro.com wrote: > > > >My guess: > > > > The "how to bowl this time" computer...the thing that determined > > where to light up the "arrow" that suggested the best way to > > make the spare. I bowled a lot in the 60s/70s, and always wondered how that worked. ... > computation was complete, the solution was relayed back to the smaller > chassis (called the "ball path indicator") where it was latched for > display, thus freeing up the main computer to service requests from other > pinsetters. pretty sophisticated! > I thought I had a picture of one in operation, but I can't put my hands on > it right at the moment, and it would take sometime to wire the computer up > just for this occasion... So, perhaps later... I'd argue this is a good chance to build an indoor bowling alley, to test it! :) > And now... the identity of this outings infamous 'no prize' (if indeed the > lucky winner wishes to claim it!) A slightly (ok, very) used, actual, for > real, AMF Bowling Pin! To claim it, drop me a note (off list) with your > address. I'll claim it! I've always wanted one! Ironically, that's the closest I'll come to bowling for awhile...my right (bowling) arm is in a sling for a couple of weeks (shoulder separation). Stan Sieler Allegro Consultants, Inc. 20700 Valley Green Dr. Cupertino, Ca 95014 Stan (typing one handed for awhile) Sieler sieler@allegro.com http://www.allegro.com/onehand.html From jim at calico.litterbox.com Fri Oct 29 13:17:52 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: Apple IIGS and Harddrive In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19991029122604.006bc194@sjsd.k12.mo.us> from "Mike Welsh" at Oct 29, 1999 12:26:10 PM Message-ID: <199910291817.MAA01335@calico.litterbox.com> You need to tell the GS the disk controller is there. I forget the key sequence to go into setup mode, but you need to tell the GS either to scan its slots for the bootable device, or which slot to boot from. > > Just got a harddrive, external SCSI with card. I would like to hook this > up to my Apple IIGS. I have downloaded Apple IIGS OS 6.0.1 from the Apple > site. When I boot the computer with disk 1 of the OS, I get an error to > check startup devices. I get this even when I don't have the SCSI card in > the computer. The disks are formatted MAC, do they need to be formatted > ProDOS?, Apple IIGS specific, or? > > thanks > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 29 12:35:24 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: HELP! ( totally OT) - Hitachi Monitor problem In-Reply-To: <004401bf21aa$0cd66f80$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> from "Richard Erlacher" at Oct 28, 99 07:08:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4734 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991029/0f75ea94/attachment.ksh From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Oct 29 13:45:35 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: Scrap coop (was Re: What's an RX01) In-Reply-To: <19991029151856.3749.rocketmail@web607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >No... I mean I _can't_ get it out. I would have to bid for *all* scrap from >a plant the size of 22 football fields. They are a large company with a Maybe some of us should consider forming some kind of scrap co-op. Find a couple somewhat centrally located storage points to divide stuff up at, then go ahead and bid on a few bigger lots. As a suggestion we could form up into three layers, active (ones who do the work), passive (ones who have a financial interest, but just want get stuff, not do stuff), and interested (ones that get first crack at what the first two groups pass over). Most of what I see in the scrap business is that it is divided into three channels, wholesale to stores in the area of working and sometimes nonworking newer equipment, specialty items that go to people like us, and the rest to metal scrappers. Not a terribly complexe business model, dependant mostly on good contacts and low rent. BTW I am aware of the obvious lunacy factor here, but I think it is still appealing if some of the details could be sorted out amongst individuals. The only items I think the co-op would need to own would be a palletjack, some basic test stuff, and some shelving. Lots of the scrappers always rent the trucks etc. I don't even see the need for any kind of long term commitment if we could form some sort of casual group so people could opt in or out on a job by job basis. Someone, anyone, could find a "deal", one person would need to step up to act as the point contact, with other people opting in for either a labor or cash stake in the given deal (or both), and if interest is sufficient we move forward with a bid. The notion of some sort of collective storage area has some obvious appeal as well, but I suspect that would depend a LOT on costs per sq ft etc. My whacky thought of the week. I promise not to think for 7 days to rest my brain. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 29 13:37:29 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: HP-HIL keyboard/mouse In-Reply-To: (message from Mike Ford on Fri, 29 Oct 1999 02:29:16 -0700) References: <199910280542.BAA05203@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <19991029183729.22327.qmail@brouhaha.com> > I was in a place yesterday with a two rack HP 9000 and the guy was telling > me he gets $5k for them to ISPs (he says they upgrade to current systems > easily). Is he full or it or what? Depends on what model of 9000 it is. If it's last year's high-end server, $5K is a good price. If it's a ten year old machine, $50 is more like it, and ISPs wouldn't touch it. From steverob at hotoffice.com Fri Oct 29 14:15:31 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: sparemaker Message-ID: <01BF2220.717A46C0.steverob@hotoffice.com> > I bowled a lot in the 60s/70s, and always wondered how that worked. If you throw strikes, you don't need the sparemaker ;-) Steve (I only need one hand) Robertson - From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Oct 29 14:15:17 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: Scrap coop (was Re: What's an RX01) In-Reply-To: References: <19991029151856.3749.rocketmail@web607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19991029150539.00aaeaf0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 11:45 AM 10/29/99 -0700, Mike Ford said something like: >>No... I mean I _can't_ get it out. I would have to bid for *all* scrap from >>a plant the size of 22 football fields. They are a large company with a > >Maybe some of us should consider forming some kind of scrap co-op. Find a >couple somewhat centrally located storage points to divide stuff up at, >then go ahead and bid on a few bigger lots. I think Ethan meant *all* scrap including old machine tools, obsolete work fixtures, metal chips from the machine shop, office furniture, scrap paper, inventory excess including extra light bulbs, screws, etc., general junk that's not tossed into the landfill dumpster, not to mention widgets, wonkers and willies. A scrap contract may possibly not even _have_ computer goodies in that particular batch (though there may be _something_ as such from a 22-football-field plant.) > -- snip -- >My whacky thought of the week. I promise not to think for 7 days to rest my >brain. I thought of a co-op thing too Mike. But I beat you to it with regard to considering it wacky :) Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From rhudson at ix.netcom.com Fri Oct 29 14:16:21 1999 From: rhudson at ix.netcom.com (rhudson@ix.netcom.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: RSTS/E Message-ID: <199910291283561869@ix.netcom.com> Hi, I am playing with the PDP11 emulator by Bob Supnik, and I have a running RSTS/E. I just recently figgured out how to add new users.. I am still trying to figgure out how to send files to the "lineprinter" and how to punch files Can anyone help with experince of this OS? Thanks. ron. From brian at sigh.mse.jhu.edu Fri Oct 29 15:02:29 1999 From: brian at sigh.mse.jhu.edu (Brian Harrington) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: Honeywell DPS-6 in Baltimore Message-ID: <1378784.3150201749@groan.mse.jhu.edu> Hi All -- There's a company in Baltimore looking for someone to haul away an (Ultimate) Honeywell DPS-6. They've got the machine itself, four 500MB (SMD?) drives, a 9-track, and several boxes of documentation. They're moving out of their current space, so you'll have to move quickly. Let me know if you're interested, and I'll put you in touch with them. -- Brian -- Brian Harrington Digital Knowledge Center The Johns Hopkins University brian@sigh.mse.jhu.edu From mdalene at home.ctol.net Fri Oct 29 14:40:42 1999 From: mdalene at home.ctol.net (B'ichela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: Vt180, whats the story here? Message-ID: [This message has also been posted.] First a short summary, Something I have been giving for awhile, I got a free Vt180 terminal. AT least Thats what It says on the front. but on the back on the nameplate it says its aa Vt100-AA! I am wondering if the AVO and the Secondary Processor part (STP) was added later on. It works GREAT as a vt100 but I have ran into a few brick walls trying to find a EK-vt100-UG Vt100 Users Guide. I can order it from Digital/Compaq for $25 but I rather not dip into my grocery money for a technical manual. I have not found out anything on how to set the printer up on it. or how to use the Vt180 part of it. or for that matter, how do I RIP that OUT! if I cannot get a boot disk for it... its worthless anyway. Here is my questions. Please help me best you can here: 1. what is Advanced Video Option (AVO) and how do I use it? 2. If the STP is the VT180 part how do I REMOVE it! *if I want plain Vt100, while maintaining AVO) 3. How do I use a printer on a VT100 and how do I set printer baud rates and parity, Stop bits 3. What are the part numbers for the manuals I need for this sucker? I know of the EK-VT100-UG and the EK-VT100-RC but what do I need for the advanced video option? STP (VT180? part) 4. What is the Graphics option? can I still get one? is that for bit mapped graphics? howis it used? can the graphics be used via Linux with graphics display utility or a plotting program (gnupplot). 5. can any of this info be located on the internet? Do I need to go hungry by ordering over $200 in US dollars worth of manuals (I only get $686 each month due to my legal blindness, that goes for rent, Electric, Gas, phone and food. My rent is $350.00 btw. 6. who has the sticker (in sticker form) that goes on the bottom of the vt100 keyboard showing the setup B screen and I/O toggle possitions. 7. How do I make the Needed cable to connect to the external floppy drive unit? Db37 to Db25? what is the pinouts or wiring to make this cable. 8. Since it has Composite In and Composite out. Does it have a built in genlock allowing me to at least use the Vt100 to do titling and captions; then sending the output to a second Video Recording unit. if titleing is not possible, what is Composite video IN for?? I tried to find this info for over 2 weeks, on Webcrawler, Infoseeek, Lycos, Altavista, Lycos (ftp search), Ask Jeeves, hotbot and what I have gotten is very sketchy at best. All I really NEED at this time is a a copy of the needed manuals in either Postscript or PDF format. or good ole HTML.. Finding the pin outs of the Vt180 cable are non-existant, as is sources of Vt180 boot disk images. While we are on the issue of DEC stuff. Who has the full list of the Control Codes for the Rainbow 100's terminal mode? How come when I fire up CP/M Modem7 or 8? I can use the Previous Screen/Next Screen keys and yet in the ROM Vt100 emulation Neither key works? Is there a good program for CPM 86/80 that allows the use or the extraa keys to be sent to Linux? such as HELP, DO, HOME, Insert, Delete Next Screen and Previous Screen? what is the Ansi codes sent by these keys?? I need something that handles 9600 bps with proper flow control. the "Modem" program for CP/M does NOT seem to work well at 9600 as it drops characters often. -- A pearl of wisdom from the y2K newsgroups: ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Y2K appears to be the Baby Boomers mid-life crisis, and it has the potential to be a dandy. -- Anonymnous -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- B'ichela From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 29 15:15:29 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: Honeywell DPS-6 in Baltimore In-Reply-To: <1378784.3150201749@groan.mse.jhu.edu> from "Brian Harrington" at Oct 29, 99 04:02:29 pm Message-ID: <199910292015.NAA22020@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 851 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991029/3e0a68dc/attachment.ksh From astroh1 at san.rr.com Fri Oct 29 16:37:12 1999 From: astroh1 at san.rr.com (AL Stroh) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: Compaq Portable II Message-ID: <00aa01bf2255$c3f437f0$9e49798b@syntonic.saic.com> I'm trying to locate a couple of these computers and was wondering if anywhere around there might know of someone who might have a couple for sale. If not, sorry for the bother. AL From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Oct 29 17:45:11 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: USUS library Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991029164511.00da5270@vpwisfirewall> I've found someone who has the entire collection of disks from USUS, the UCSD Pascal User Group, and he's cheerfully coaxed his Linux box's disk parameters into reading the 800K 5 1/4 Pinnacle Systems disks he had. I hope to decipher the .SVOL "disk volume in a file" method they were stored in, and post them to my web page soon. He also mentioned he has source code on 8 inch disks from an Ohio Scientific, Inc. machine. He thought hed have more trouble finding a way to read those because of its scheme of using an 6820 parallel port controller and a 6850 serial port controller to access floppies. Is that true? Should the normal scheme for connecting a Shugart-y drive to an old AT-era WD controller work to read these old disks? - John From mrbill at mrbill.net Fri Oct 29 16:45:18 1999 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: Compaq Portable II In-Reply-To: <00aa01bf2255$c3f437f0$9e49798b@syntonic.saic.com> References: <00aa01bf2255$c3f437f0$9e49798b@syntonic.saic.com> Message-ID: <19991029164518.C18770@mrbill.net> On Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 02:37:12PM -0700, AL Stroh wrote: > I'm trying to locate a couple of these computers and was > wondering if anywhere around there might know of someone > who might have a couple for sale. If not, sorry for the bother. > AL If this is the big suitcase-style luggable, I've got a line on 3 or 4 of them for $10 each at the local Goodwill ComputerWorks. I'll check on them this evening and pick them up if they're IIs. Bill (looking for a PDP-11, i've got two RS/6000 POWERstation 530s for sale with AIX 4.1.3 loaded, cd-rom drive, exabyte type drive..) -- Bill Bradford * mrbill@mrbill.net / http://www.mrbill.net mrbill@sunhelp.org / http://www.sunhelp.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Never criticize anybody until you have walked a mile in their shoes, because by that time you will be a mile away and have their shoes." -- Unknown From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Oct 29 16:56:41 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: USUS library In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991029164511.00da5270@vpwisfirewall> from John Foust at "Oct 29, 1999 04:45:11 pm" Message-ID: <199910292156.VAA08974@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > > I've found someone who has the entire collection of disks from USUS, > the UCSD Pascal User Group, and he's cheerfully coaxed his Linux > box's disk parameters into reading the 800K 5 1/4 Pinnacle Systems > disks he had. I hope to decipher the .SVOL "disk volume in a file" > method they were stored in, and post them to my web page soon. Sounds great, especially if any of this stuff works on the Terak. By the way, i've had some minor difficulties reformatting floppys for use on the Terak. I'll try this new Radio Shack degausser on them before formatting (formatting being done by cp/m on a cromemco Z2) and hopefuly that will help. The problem may well be my floppy drives fault though... -Lawrence LeMay > > He also mentioned he has source code on 8 inch disks from an > Ohio Scientific, Inc. machine. He thought hed have more trouble > finding a way to read those because of its scheme of using an > 6820 parallel port controller and a 6850 serial port controller > to access floppies. Is that true? Should the normal scheme for > connecting a Shugart-y drive to an old AT-era WD controller > work to read these old disks? > > - John > From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Fri Oct 29 17:06:34 1999 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: USUS library (Ohio Scientific) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991029164511.00da5270@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: Sounds like a good use for an old 8 inch OSI C8P-DF if one still exists! ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Fri, 29 Oct 1999, John Foust wrote: > > He also mentioned he has source code on 8 inch disks from an > Ohio Scientific, Inc. machine. He thought hed have more trouble > finding a way to read those because of its scheme of using an > 6820 parallel port controller and a 6850 serial port controller > to access floppies. Is that true? Should the normal scheme for > connecting a Shugart-y drive to an old AT-era WD controller > work to read these old disks? > > - John > > From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Oct 29 17:18:50 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: USUS library Message-ID: <991029181850.276000e9@trailing-edge.com> >I've found someone who has the entire collection of disks from USUS, >the UCSD Pascal User Group, and he's cheerfully coaxed his Linux >box's disk parameters into reading the 800K 5 1/4 Pinnacle Systems >disks he had. I hope to decipher the .SVOL "disk volume in a file" >method they were stored in, and post them to my web page soon. Cool. I *highly* recommend that someone, somewhere, store the raw disk images for future use. If someone wants to "pull files" out of the images, that's fine, but the exact image should be kept as the "master reference". >He also mentioned he has source code on 8 inch disks from an >Ohio Scientific, Inc. machine. He thought hed have more trouble >finding a way to read those because of its scheme of using an >6820 parallel port controller and a 6850 serial port controller >to access floppies. Is that true? Yep. Serial data (I think async, with start and stop bits) goes through a modulator and onto disk. Reverse the process to recover data. > Should the normal scheme for >connecting a Shugart-y drive to an old AT-era WD controller >work to read these old disks? Nope, the format is *nothing* like IBM3740, which is all a standard PC-clone FDC will do. (Admittedly, there are a lot of variants of IBM3740 that a 765-type FDC *will* do.) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From bill at chipware.com Fri Oct 29 17:35:08 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: USUS library (OSI disks) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991029164511.00da5270@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: <000201bf225d$da7cad10$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > He also mentioned he has source code on 8 inch disks from an > Ohio Scientific, Inc. machine. He thought hed have more trouble > finding a way to read those because of its scheme of using an > 6820 parallel port controller and a 6850 serial port controller > to access floppies. Is that true? Yup, that's just what OSI used. My C3-D should read them ok, if the alignment is good. > Should the normal scheme for > connecting a Shugart-y drive to an old AT-era WD controller > work to read these old disks? Don't think so... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 29 17:34:48 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: Vt180, whats the story here? In-Reply-To: from "B'ichela" at Oct 29, 99 03:40:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3442 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991029/232131f3/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 29 17:42:19 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: USUS library In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991029164511.00da5270@vpwisfirewall> (message from John Foust on Fri, 29 Oct 1999 16:45:11 -0600) References: <3.0.5.32.19991029164511.00da5270@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: <19991029224219.23345.qmail@brouhaha.com> John wrote: > He also mentioned he has source code on 8 inch disks from an > Ohio Scientific, Inc. machine. He thought hed have more trouble > finding a way to read those because of its scheme of using an > 6820 parallel port controller and a 6850 serial port controller > to access floppies. Is that true? Should the normal scheme for > connecting a Shugart-y drive to an old AT-era WD controller > work to read these old disks? He's right. Ohio Scientific used a UART as a disk controller. I haven't looked at the schematics, so I'm not sure what method they used to avoid long runs without flux transitions; maybe they really could tolerate nine zeros (a start bit and eight data bits) between ones (stop bits). Anyhow, the only way I know to read those disks is to use the actual Ohio Scientific hardware. If that couldn't be done, I think I could hack together something with a Scenix microcontroller. Eric From mrbill at mrbill.net Fri Oct 29 18:18:10 1999 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: Wanted: Old DEC stuff in Texas Message-ID: <19991029181810.A19407@mrbill.net> Anybody out there within a reasonable driving distance (6 hours?) of Austin, Texas that has any old DEC gear they'd like to get rid of to a good home? I've got a two-car garage thats finished out with carpet and paneling, and I'd like to start that collection of DEC stuff I always wanted. I'm looking for VT1xx/2xx/3xx terminals, MicroVAX/ VAX equipment, PDP-11 (especially) gear, etc. Stuff I've got for sale or trade or donation if you need it bad enough: Six 1200 watter power supplies for a Sun 4/690MP Six 2.1gig SCSI differential FH 5.25" HDs from a 4/690MP Six 1.3gig IPI 5.25" FH HDs from a 4/690MP 16-slot VME cardcage/backplane/blower assembly from a Sun 4/690MP Five 4/330 / 4/630MP deskside VME chassis One SCSI drive shelf and two IPI drive shelves/trays (with slide rails) for a 19" rack Two IBM POWERServer 530 RS/6000 servers, each with 64mb RAM, 2.3gig Exabyte tape drives, one with CD-ROM and 1gig HD, both with IBM 3151 amber terminals. AIX 4.1.3 loaded, with AIX on CD-ROM included. Other stuff like a 16-port serial breakout box, etc. Couple of Toshiba laptops with the orange plasma screen (not sure about the models, I think one's a 3100 and one a 5100; I used them for serial terminals) If anybody's interested in any of this equipment, please let me know. I'd love to see it go to a good home where someone cna get some use out of it, and possibly get something for me to play with in return. Bill -- Bill Bradford * mrbill@mrbill.net / http://www.mrbill.net mrbill@sunhelp.org / http://www.sunhelp.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Never criticize anybody until you have walked a mile in their shoes, because by that time you will be a mile away and have their shoes." -- Unknown From edick at idcomm.com Fri Oct 29 18:53:12 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: HELP! ( totally OT) - Hitachi Monitor problem Message-ID: <001101bf2268$c332e920$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> please see embedded remarks below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, October 29, 1999 12:21 PM Subject: Re: HELP! ( totally OT) - Hitachi Monitor problem >> >Hey _I'm_ the one that flames about not being able to get service >> >information for everything I own. Last time I ranted on about this you >> >pointed out a number of good reasons why such information might not be >> >available. >> > >> It's like getting the service manual for a car of the same vintage, except >> that when a car is this old, it's just starting to cause little problems and >> the third-party repair manuals are available everywhere. In the electronics > >ALthough to be fair, most of the 3rd party car shop manuals are a waste >of space. Having been caught out a couple of times, I now always work >from the factory manual. It costs a bit more, but... > Agreed, though the original from the mfg is normally only available during the first year or two of ownership. I have the Nissan manual for my Maxima, though it was nine years old before I needed it. Frankly, I bought a 3rd party manual only because I couldn't find the original. > >> business, there have never been really decent repair manuals from 3rd >> parties, except maybe for TV's, of which I've never had one break. >> Unfortunately, as the prices of these commodities drop, the level of >> expectation to which the vendors respond drops as well. These days, you can >> get a really decent 20" monitor for $400 or less. When it breaks, it's >> unlikely you'll get anyone to fix it for less than the price of a new one. > >Except that in a lot of cases the old (and expensive when new) monitor >(or whatever) is built a _lot_ better than the modern 'replacemnt' (and >it may well give better performance as well -- a lot of modern monitors >have terrible convergence, etc). > >I guess I'm strange, but I'd rather repair something that was once great >than replace it with something that could never be as good... > Yes, but new monitors these days have flat screens and are VERY sharp and VERY linear, unlike the large-screen multisync displays of yesteryear. The fixed frequency varieties which are so difficult to use for anything useful are the outgrowth of this. Instead of making an "average" monitor with the ability to sync at several sweep rates displaying appropriate resolutions, they made one which was VERY linear and VERY well focused and converged at a single frequency and let the boardmakers benefit from that. > >> >> If you want a schematic of a 7-year-old TV set, I doubt it's readily >> available either. I've never had a monitor repaired successfully by a > >Hmm... In the UK there were books produced every year of TV schematics. I >have an almost-complete set from 1952 to 1981 (!) -- these ones cover >radios, tape recorders, etc as well. And beleive-it-or-not, many public >libraries have at least some of them available. > >So finding the schematic of a 7 year old TV (which is not an old set >IMHO) would not be a big problem. > >There are also companies who sell copies of old service manuals, for just >about anything. I got the manuals for the Sony 'Rover' portable >reel-to-reel video recorder and camera a few months back. That thing is >over 25 years old, but there was no problem in getting a service manual, >although Sony could no longer supply it. > >Said company does sell computer (mostly home micro) and monitor service >manuals (I got the Sharp MZ80B manual + schematics from them). But >obviously they can only supply manuals if the manufacturer of the device >has produced them (and has given permission for them to be reproduced, I >guess). > >There are some books of computer monitor circuits available, and then >later they produced similar information on CD-ROM (basically just scans >of the manuals). I found the latter to be painful to use, but the former >are actually very useful. Even if your monitor isn't in there, there's >likely to be something that's similar. > >> "professional" working at an "authorized" repair center. I sent in a very > >I've never met a 'professional' who could repair anythign of mine. Why >do you think I fix everything myself :-)... > Hear! Hear! ... > >[...] > >> >Although it's hard to imagine anything particularly clever/unusual in a >> >standard colour monitor. Most monitors that I've worked on use pretty >> >much standard circuitry. >> > >> That's what puzzles me about the color displays I have sitting about. There >> aren't many that look even remotely similar beyond the most superficial >> observation. Not one has a flyback transformer, and all the >> current-generation multisync types use some encapsulated device about 4x6x1" >> or so to effect the power management functions. > >Hmm... In my experiece most single-freqeuncy monitors still use a >traditional flyback transformer. I say 'most' because there are one or >two that I have that use an independant EHT supply. > >As soon as you get to multiple scan rates (even just for EGA), it makes >life a lot easier if you separate the EHT generator and the Horizontal >output. EHT still comes from a 'flyback transformer' but it's not >connected to the HOT. It has its own driver transistor. Both the HOT and >the EHT-transformer output transistor are driven by the horizontal >oscillator but the supply to the output stage (normally) is separately >controllerd. This allows non-interacting EHT regulation and width >control, I guess. > I wish I knew as much about these things as you, but I've stuck with the circuits inside the computer, and allowed others, (obviously) to worry the problems with monitors. I learned at an early age, that punched and screwed chassis take skin of hands (or whatever else you have on their far side) as you try to get away from the "bite" of the HV lurking inside. > >No idea what modern multisync-with-power-save+... do. I've never had the >misfortune to have to really repair one. The couple I have fixed have had >obvious faults that I could sort out without a schematic and without >understanding how the unit really works. You know, faults like dry joints >on the CRT base. > Unfortunately those are commone enough to motivate even me to look inside. > >-tony > From mdalene at home.ctol.net Fri Oct 29 19:18:29 1999 From: mdalene at home.ctol.net (B'ichela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:14 2005 Subject: Vt180, whats the story here? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Oct 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > some extra video RAM, etc. It allows you to have 24 rows of 132 > characters, extra text attributes, etc. > > Unless it's faulty, leave it in place. It can do no harm, and in general > it makes the VT100 work like most modern programs expect a VT100 to > behave. Ok, thanks for explaining what that REALLY does. I always had wondered what was the AVO's job. > I believe the STP _is_ the VT180 processor. AH-Ha! Ok now things are a little less cryptic especially since the When Requesting a DSR to the Terminal it says it is a Vt100 with AVO and STP. (ESC [?1;3c) > > I am going to guess a bit here. My guess is that the STP connects to a > paddleboard that goes into the edge connector on the VT100 logic board. > This is a very clever piece of DEC design -- the contacts on this edge > connector are designed to touch if there's no PCB inserts. By so doing > they connect the VT100 logic to the RS232 connector on the back. By > inserting a PCB you can intercept this connection, allowing the VT100 > terminal to talk to the STP and also the STP to talk to the host via the > RS232 connector. > > A second guess is that if you remove the PCB from this edge connector, > the thing goes back to being a normal VT100. I'm going to give it a try. AT least until I get that boot disk and cable. Because right now when I turn it on it tells me that I have a boot floppy error (Of Course I do, I don't have a drive cable or a disk as of yet.) > think it could drive a Tekky 4000 (since most things can...), but I doubt > if it can do the VT105. > > No idea where you get either of these boards, either... I would think.... Someone on this list might have some of those boards hiding in their parts bins. > > >From the left : > > Block 1: > Scroll (0=jump, 1=smooth) > Autorepeat (0=off, 1=on) > Screen (0=dark background, 1=light background) > Cursor (0=underline, 1=block) > > Block 2: > Margin bell (0=off, 1=on) > Keyclick (0=off, 1=on) > Emulation (0=VT52, 1=ANSI) > Auto Xon/Xoff (0=off, 1=on) > > Block 3: > Shifted-3 (0=#, 1=\pounds) > Wrap around (0=off, 1=on) > New line (0=off, 1=on) > Interlace (0=off,1=on) > > Block 4: > Parity (0=odd, 1=even) > Parity (0=off, 1=on) > Bits/Char (0=7bits, 1=8bits) > Power (0=60Hz, 1=50Hz) > Thanks, that does help things for me. I remember how to Save/restore set the serial ports (non-printer) it was always those Little bit mapped registers that always got me lost. > > > 8. Since it has Composite In and Composite out. Does it have a > > built in genlock allowing me to at least use the Vt100 to do titling > > and captions; then sending the output to a second Video Recording > > unit. if titleing is not possible, what is Composite video IN for?? > > There is no genlock, the VT100 has to be the sync generator. > > Composite out is what you expect -- a composite feed to an external > monitor, etc. > > Composite in is strange. You first have to extract the sync from the > composite out socket, and lock an external video source to that. You can > then feed the output of that video source into the composite in socket, > where it will be displayed on the VT100 screen, overlayed with the text > from the VT100 itself. But notice the external source is synced to the > VT100 and not the reverse. Ok, now how does one Discard the Horizontal and Vertical Sync pulses from a video signal? before feeding to the Input? Does the Vt100 have built in logic to do that or was that a seperate adaptor from DEC? Has anyone tried it with COLOR Composite Inputs? Remember what I was thinkinf of using it for. what about the Chrominance signal? or do I need to strip that in addition to the native sync pulses? > > > While we are on the issue of DEC stuff. Who has the full list > > of the Control Codes for the Rainbow 100's terminal mode? How come > > when I fire up CP/M Modem7 or 8? I can use the Previous Screen/Next > > Screen keys and yet in the ROM Vt100 emulation Neither key works? Is > > PResumably the Modem7 program is rather more user-friendlt than the one > in ROM... Next/Prev screen were not VT100 features, AFAIK, so I guess DEC > didn't see any need to make them work with the built-in VT100 emulator. > > -tony > Probally for the reason you mentioned. it was Supposed to act as a true VT102 (Vt100 sucessor). But under CP/M 86/80 the keys are usable in some terminal programs Modem 7 for example WILL send them to my Linux system, whose terminfo for the Vt102 Will use them. Withnout having to go through that Ugly Terminfo stuff. does anyone have a list of the ansi codes that are sent by them? A pearl of wisdom from the y2K newsgroups: ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Y2K appears to be the Baby Boomers mid-life crisis, and it has the potential to be a dandy. -- Anonymnous -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- B'ichela From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Fri Oct 29 19:48:32 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:15 2005 Subject: Vt180, whats the story here? In-Reply-To: from "B'ichela" at "Oct 29, 1999 8:18:29 pm" Message-ID: <199910300048.UAA64361@pechter.dyndns.org> > On Fri, 29 Oct 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > some extra video RAM, etc. It allows you to have 24 rows of 132 > > characters, extra text attributes, etc. > > > > A second guess is that if you remove the PCB from this edge connector, > > the thing goes back to being a normal VT100. > I'm going to give it a try. AT least until I get that boot disk > and cable. Because right now when I turn it on it tells me that I have a > boot floppy error (Of Course I do, I don't have a drive cable or a disk as > of yet.) > > think it could drive a Tekky 4000 (since most things can...), but I doubt Actually, if the machine didn't have the boot failure typing "t" would turn it into a straight VT100 terminal mode of operation A - Boot From A B - Boot From B C - Boot From C D - Boot From D T - Terminal mode > > > While we are on the issue of DEC stuff. Who has the full list > > > of the Control Codes for the Rainbow 100's terminal mode? How come > > > when I fire up CP/M Modem7 or 8? I can use the Previous Screen/Next > > > Screen keys and yet in the ROM Vt100 emulation Neither key works? Is > > > > PResumably the Modem7 program is rather more user-friendlt than the one > > in ROM... Next/Prev screen were not VT100 features, AFAIK, so I guess DEC > > didn't see any need to make them work with the built-in VT100 emulator. Actually, Modem7 is pretty stupid. I did the final version of the Mex overlays... I'm appending them below. The Mex overlay works pretty well with both Kermit and Mex114.COM The original VT180 bios did some interesting things like interrupt driven keyboard handling and ring buffers on the I/O. It is still one of the slickest CP/M machines around for word processing. Of course WordStar's Control-S took some hacking (since it Xoff-ed the VT... ZCPR2/3's replacemnet CP/M bios Bernie Eiben did let you turn on and off Control-S auto replacement for [D by poking a bit. > > > > -tony > > Bill ; Title - Overlay file for MEXxx ; REV EQU 36 ; V 3.6 ; ; ;This Overlay File supports the DEC Micro VT180 with CP/M. ; ;We use the COMM-Port of the Micro's. Baud-rates are "parallel" ;to the console Baud-rates - no need for a "special" baud-rate ;routine. Since the COMM-port is I/O-wise Reader/Punch, we use ;the BDOS calls. ; ;To test for COMM-status , we use I/O byte redirection in ;conjunction with direct BIOS-CONSTAT call. ; ;This technique although a little bit slower than direct I/O ;using Interrupt on INPUT is general enough to be system ;independent. ; ; - B. Eiben DEC Large System Marketing Marlboro Mass ; ; And more or less bios version independant.--Bill Pechter ; ;*********************************************************************** ; ; 5-Jun-1984 Adapted from M7VT-2.ASM by Bernie Eiben. ; Rev 1.0 ; Stu Fuller ; ; 17-Mar-86 Version 3.4 removed ZCPR2/3 bit manipulation. That will ; Bill Pechter now be done by poke commands in Mex/Mexplus Ini.Mex. ; ; 22-Aug-86 Version 3.5 test to fix sendout. Added test for status ; Bill Pechter and RETJNK to avoid hanging. ; ; 29-Aug-86 Final Version 3.6 supports full Remote operation. ; Bill Pechter Support for future versions from me not available ; as they will be made specifically for my modified Robin. ; ;______________________________________________________________________________ ; ; ZCPR2 ZCPR3 ZCPR3 with RCP ;______________________________________________________________________________ ; ; change contents EA3CH EAFEH E240H ; at this address ; to 64H from 74H to ; disable wordstar ; ^x^s cursor key ; translation. ;______________________________________________________________________________ ; ; change contents EA60H EB1CH E31CH ; at this address to ; 01 from 05H to ; disable the ; automatic xoff-xon ; transmission. ; ;------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ; ;bios code looks like this--example using ZCPR3 without RCP ; ; Port# Port control data ; block ; ;contents: 41H 74H 00 ;address eafdH eafeH eaff ; ; QMRCVFL EQU 01H ; Mask to allow me to send XON/XOFF ; QMXOFFD EQU 02H ; Mask indicating I sent an XOFF ; QMXMTFL EQU 04H ; Mask to allow other end to stop me ; QMSUSP EQU 08H ; Mask indicating I got an XOFF ; QMARROW EQU 10H ; Mask for arrow xlate bit ; QMBIT7 EQU 20H ; Mask for "use only 7 bits" ; QMCCFLS EQU 40H ; Mask for "flush buffer if 2 ^C's seen" ; QM1STCC EQU 80H ; Mask for "first ^C seen" ; ;NOTE: DO NOT poke any bits with CP/M80 (STANDARD DEC DISTRIBUTION) or ; MultiSystem 180 (by Ken Heyda)...poking of random bits would ; be disasterous. ; ;**************************************************************************** ; ; TRUE: EQU 0FFH FALSE: EQU 0 YES: EQU 0FFH NO: EQU 0 ; BELL EQU 07H ;bell TAB EQU 9 CR EQU 13 ;carriage return LF EQU 10 ;linefeed ESC EQU 1BH ;escape ; ; ; I8080 equ yes I8086 equ no CPM equ yes PCDOS equ no ; ; ; ; SET ONE (and only one) OF EACH SET OF THE FOLLOWING CONDITIONALS ; DEPENDING ON VERSION OF SOFTWARE and CPU TYPE ; ; ; Mex Type ; MEXONE EQU FALSE ; version 1.10 through 1.14 MEXTWO EQU TRUE ; version 1.24 through 1.63 (MexPlus) ; ; ; DAV EQU 0FFH ;bit(s) to test for ready TBMT EQU 0FFH ; ;*****************************************************************************; = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ; ; ; The Check for characters at COMM-Port using I/O redirection ; IOBYTE EQU 3 ; some definitions ; ; DEFIO EQU 95H ; BATIO EQU 56H ; ; ; MEX service processor stuff ; MEX EQU 0D00H ;address of the service processor INMDM EQU 255 ;get char from port to A, CY=none in 100 ms TIMER EQU 254 ;delay 100ms * reg B TMDINP EQU 253 ;B=# secs to wait for char, cy=no char CHEKCC EQU 252 ;check for ^C from KBD, Z=present SNDRDY EQU 251 ;test for modem-send ready RCVRDY EQU 250 ;test for modem-receive ready SNDCHR EQU 249 ;send a character to the modem (after sndrdy) RCVCHR EQU 248 ;recv a char from modem (after rcvrdy) LOOKUP EQU 247 ;table search: see CMDTBL comments for info PARSFN EQU 246 ;parse filename from input stream BDPARS EQU 245 ;parse baud-rate from input stream SBLANK EQU 244 ;scan input stream to next non-blank EVALA EQU 243 ;evaluate numeric from input stream LKAHED EQU 242 ;get nxt char w/o removing from input GNC EQU 241 ;get char from input, cy=1 if none ILP EQU 240 ;inline print DECOUT EQU 239 ;decimal output PRBAUD EQU 238 ;print baud rate ; PUNCH: EQU 4 ;BDOS/MEX punch function READER: EQU 3 ;BDOS/MEX reader function PRINT EQU 9 ;BDOS/MEX print-string function call ; ; ; ORG 100H ; IF MEXTWO ; ; LINE BELOW ADDED FOR MEX V1.24 TO MAKE LOADABLE OVERLAY ; DB 0C3H ; ; ; ; DS 2 ;(for "JMP START" instruction) ENDIF;MEXTWO ; IF MEXONE ; DS 3 ; ; ENDIF;MEXONE ; ; Change the clock speed to suit your system ; PMMIMODEM: DB NO ;yes=PMMI S-100 Modem 103H SMARTMODEM: DB YES ;yes=HAYES Smartmodem, no=non-PMMI 104H TONE DB 'P' ;T=touch, P=pulse (Smartmodem-only) 105H CLOCK: DB 40 ;clock speed in MHz x10, 25.5 MHz max. 106H ;20=2 MHh, 37=3.68 MHz, 40=4 MHz, etc. MSPEED: DB 5 ;0=110 1=300 2=450 3=600 4=710 5=1200 107H ;6=2400 7=4800 8=9600 9=19200 default ;set to 300 baud... BYTDLY: DB 5 ;0=0 delay 1=10ms 5=50 ms - 9=90 ms 108H ;default time to send character in ter- ;minal mode file transfer for slow BBS. CRDLY: DB 5 ;0=0 delay 1=100 ms 5=500 ms - 9=900 ms 109H ;default time for extra wait after CRLF ;in terminal mode file transfer COLUMS: DB 5 ;number of DIR columns shown 10AH SETFLG: DB YES ;yes=user-added Setup routine 10BH SCRTST: DB YES ;Cursor control routine 10CH ACKNAK: DB YES ;yes=resend a record after any non-ACK 10DH ;no=resend a record after a valid-NAK BAKFLG: DB YES ;yes=change any file same name to .BAK 10EH CRCDFL: DB YES ;yes=default to CRC checking 10FH TOGCRC: DB YES ;yes=allow toggling of CRC to Checksum 110H CVTBS: DB NO ;yes=convert backspace to rub 111H TOGLBK: DB YES ;yes=allow toggling of bksp to rub 112H ADDLF: DB NO ;no=no LF after CR to send file in 113H ;terminal mode (added by remote echo) TOGLF: DB YES ;yes=allow toggling of LF after CR 114H TRANLOGON: DB YES ;yes=allow transmission of logon 115H ;write logon sequence at location LOGON SAVCCP: DB YES ;yes=do not overwrite CCP 116H LOCONEXTCHR: DB NO ;yes=local command if EXTCHR precedes 117H ;no=external command if EXTCHR precedes TOGGLELOC: DB YES ;yes=allow toggling of LOCONEXTCHR 118H LSTTST: DB YES ;yes=printer available on printer port 119H XOFTST: DB NO ;yes=checks for XOFF from remote while 11AH ;sending a file in terminal mode XONWT: DB NO ;yes=wait for XON after CR while 11BH ;sending a file in terminal mode TOGXOF: DB YES ;yes=allow toggling of XOFF checking 11CH IGNCTL: DB NO ;yes=CTL-chars above ^M not displayed 11DH EXTRA1: DB 0 ;for future expansion 11EH EXITCHR DB 'E'-40H ;^E = Exit to main menu 11FH BRKCHR: DB 'B'-40H ;^B = Send 300 ms. break tone 120H NOCONN: DB 'N'-40H ;^N = Disconnect from the phone line 121H LOGCHR: DB 'L'-40H ;^L = Send logon 122H LSTCHR: DB 'P'-40H ;^P = Toggle printer 123H UNSAVE: DB 'R'-40H ;^R = Close input text buffer 124H TRNCHR: DB 'T'-40H ;^T = Transmit file to remote 125H SAVCHR: DB 'Y'-40H ;^Y = Open input text buffer 126H EXTCHR: DB '^'-40H ;^^ = Send next character 127H DS 2 ;unused by MEX 128H ; INCTL1: JMP INSP ;go input status port 12AH DS 7 ; OTDATA: JMP OUTDP ;go output data port 134H DS 7 ; INPORT: JMP INDP ;go input data port 13EH DS 7 ; MASKR: ANI DAV ! RET ;bit to test for receive ready 148H TESTR: CPI DAV ! RET ;value of rcv. bit when ready 14BH ; Note: most overlays will use ANI TBMT at MASKS. ; However, we don't bother with it here. TESTS: will always return ready MASKS: MVI A,TBMT ! RET ;bit to test for send ready 14EH TESTS: CPI TBMT ! RET ;value of send bit when ready 151H ; ; ; IF MEXTWO ; DCDTST: JMP DCDVEC ;DATA CARIER DETECT 154H RNGDET: JMP RNGVEC ;RING DETECT VECTOR 157H DS 5 ENDIF;MEXTWO ; ; IF MEXONE ; DS 11 ENDIF;MEXONE ; DIALV: DS 3 ;DIALV not done here (maybe MXO-SM) 162H SMDISC: DS 3 ; smartmodem overlay DISCV likewise ; (dumb modem...now we do discon below) DISCV: JMP DISCON ;here's where we goto on DSC cmd. GOODBV: JMP GOODBY ; 168H INMODV: JMP NITMOD ;go to user written routine 16BH RET ! NOP ! NOP ;NEWBDV 16EH RET ! NOP ! NOP ;NOPARV 171H RET ! NOP ! NOP ;PARITV 174H SETUPV: JMP SETCMD ; 177H DS 3 ;not used by MEX 17AH VERSNV: JMP SYSVER ; 17DH BREAKV: JMP SBREAK ; 180H ; ; Do not change the following six lines (they provide access to routines ; in MEX that are present to support MDM7 overlays -- they will likely ; be gone by MEX v2.0). ; ILPRTV: DS 3 ; 183H INBUFV DS 3 ; 186H ILCMPV: DS 3 ; 189H INMDMV: DS 3 ; 18CH DS 3 ; 18FH TIMERV DS 3 ; 192H ; ; ; ; Routine to clear to end of screen. If using CLREOS and CLRSCRN, set ; SCRTEST to YES at 010AH (above). ; ; CLREOS: LXI D,EOSMSG ; 195H MVI C,PRINT CALL MEX RET ; CLS: LXI D,CLSMSG ; 19EH MVI C,PRINT CALL MEX RET ; ; End of fixed areas ; ;..... ; ; LINE BELOW ADDED FOR MEX V1.24 ; IF MEXTWO ; ORG 200H ; ; ENDIF;MEXTWO ; ; TELL: MVI C,ILP CALL MEX ;Print current baud rate DB CR,LF,'Actual baud rate from Set-up B ',0 MVI C,ILP CALL MEX DB CR,LF,'Apparent Baud rate is now: ',0 LDA MSPEED MVI C,PRBAUD CALL MEX RET ; ; ; ; Modem I/O primitive ; ; Subroutine to output a character to the modem. ; This routine does it's own status checking. ; OUTDP: PUSH B ;save... PUSH D ;...the... PUSH H ;...registers. MOV E,A ;move output byte into E MVI C,PUNCH ;use the BDOS function CALL MEX ;go POP H ;restore... POP D ;...the... POP B ;...registers. RET ;..... ; ; ; Subroutine to input a character from the modem. ; This routine will not wait until one becomes available. ; INDP: CALL INSP JZ RETJNK PUSH B ;save... PUSH D ;...the... PUSH H ;...regesters. MVI C,READER ;use the BDOS function CALL MEX ;go POP H ;restore... POP D ;...the... POP B ;...registers. RET ; ; RETJNK: MVI A,0 ;Return junk if not ready RET ; so we don't hang ; ; ; The Check for characters at COMM Port using I/O redirection ; INSP: PUSH B PUSH D PUSH H ; save the environment MVI A,BATIO ; change I/O byte STA IOBYTE CALL BCONST ; call BIOS direct - see NITMOD PUSH A LDA SAVEIO ; change I/O byte back STA IOBYTE POP A POP H ; restore environment POP D POP B RET ; NITMOD: LHLD 1 ; Get BIOS Jump-table adress LXI D,3 DAD D ; CONSTAT routine in BIOS SHLD BCONST+1 ; modify our "routine" LDA IOBYTE ; Save I/O byte STA SAVEIO ; ; ; SETCMD: MVI C,SBLANK ;Any arguments? CALL MEX JC TELL ;If not, go display baud LXI D,CMDTBL MVI C,LOOKUP CALL MEX ;Parse argument PUSH H ;Save any parsed argument addrs on stack RNC ;If we have one, return to it POP H ;Oops, input not found in table MVI C,ILP CALL MEX ;Tell user input not valid DB '++(Only 110,300,600,1200,2400,9600,19200 supported)++',CR,LF,0 RET ; CMDTBL: DB '11','0'+80H DW OK110 ; DB '30','0'+80H DW OK300 ; DB '60','0'+80H DW OK600 ; DB '120','0'+80H DW OK1200 ; DB '240','0'+80H DW OK2400 ; DB '480','0'+80H DW OK4800 ; DB '960','0'+80H DW OK9600 ; DB '1920','0'+80H DW OK19200 ; DB 0 ; ; ; ; OK110 MVI A,0 JMP LOADBD ; OK300: MVI A,1 JMP LOADBD ; OK600 MVI A,3 JMP LOADBD ; OK1200: MVI A,5 JMP LOADBD ; OK2400: MVI A,6 JMP LOADBD ; OK4800: MVI A,7 JMP LOADBD ; OK9600: MVI A,8 JMP LOADBD ; OK19200: MVI A,9 ; LOADBD: STA MSPEED RET ; area for code to set actual baud rate ; if overlay can be hacked to use ; programmable port such as general purpose ; port ; NEWBAUD: CPI 1 JZ OK300 CPI 5 JZ OK1200 CPI 6 JZ OK2400 CPI 7 JZ OK4800 CPI 8 JZ OK9600 CPI 9 JZ OK19200 RET ; ; BCONST: JMP $-$ ; address "filled in" by above code ; ; IF MEXTWO ; ; DCDVEC: IN 059H ;BIT 7,A --Z80 only instruction DB 0CBH,07FH JNZ RETYES ; THIS USES DSR TO DETECT CARRIER MVI A,0 RET ; RETURN 0FFH IF CARRIER ; RETURN 0 NO CARRIER ; RETURN 0FFE IF OVERLAY DOESN'T KNOW RNGVEC: IN 088H ;BIT 3,A --Z80 only instruction DB 0CBH,05FH JNZ RETYES ; MVI A,0 RET ; RETURN 0FFH IF RING DETECTED ; RETURN 0 NO RING ; RETURN 0FFE IF OVERLAY DOESN'T KNOW RETYES: MVI A,0FFH ; YES YOU HAVE IT... RET ; ; ENDIF;MEXTWO ; SBREAK: ;pbausl EQU 90H ;The Baud-Rate register. prntst EQU 49H ;Printer ;prndat EQU 48H contst EQU 41H ;Console ;condat EQU 40H gentst EQU 51H ;General port. ;gendat EQU 50H comtst EQU 59H ;COMM-Port ;comdat EQU 58H ;output EQU 01H ;Output ready bit. ;input EQU 02H ;Input ready bit. comctl equ 59h ;VT180 communications port crtctl equ 41h ;VT180 crt port ;VT180 serial port command bits txe equ 1 ;transmit enable dtr equ 2 ;dtr on rxe equ 4 ;rx enable sndbrk equ 0Ah ;dtr and break... rerr equ 10h ;reset error rts equ 20h ;RTS on reset equ 40h ;port reset NODTR EQU 14H ; ;send break to comm port ; lxi h,38500 ;250 ms(?) mvi a,comctl ;Get address of selected port mov c,a ;Into C mvi a,sndbrk ; OUT C,A ;Want to send to port addressed by C db 0EDH,079H ;Op code for above instruction sndbrk1:dcx h ;timing loop... mov a,l ora h jnz sndbrk1 ;...until over mvi a,comctl ;Get the address for the port mov c,a ;Into C mvi a,txe+dtr+rxe+rerr+rts ;enable tr/rc, dtr, reset error ; out c,a ;Z-80 only instruction db 0EDH,079H ;Op code for above instruction out contst ;reset ports ret ; ; DISCONNECT ROUTINE ; DISCON: lxi h,38500 ;250 ms(?) mvi a,comctl ;Get address of selected port mov c,a ;Into C mvi a,NODTR ; OUT C,A ;Want to send to port addressed by C db 0EDH,079H ;Op code for above instruction DISCON1:dcx h ;timing loop... mov a,l ora h jnz DISCON1 ;...until over mvi a,comctl ;Get the address for the port mov c,a ;Into C mvi a,txe+dtr+rxe+rerr+rts ;enable tr/rc, dtr, reset error ; out c,a ;Z-80 only instruction db 0EDH,079H ;Op code for above instruction out contst ;reset ports RET ; ; ; GOODBY: RET ; ; SYSVER: PUSH B PUSH D PUSH H LXI D,DECMSG MVI C,PRINT CALL MEX SYSVE1: LXI D,CRLF MVI C,PRINT CALL MEX POP H POP D POP B RET ; ; Miscellaneous storage ; SAVEIO: DB 0 ; Save the original IObyte here ; ; Various text messages CLSMSG: DB ESC,'[2J',ESC,'[H','$' EOSMSG: DB ESC,'[0J','$' ; XSO EQU 14 ;"shift out" character XSI EQU 15 ;"shift in" character ; DECMSG: DB 'Version for: ',ESC,'[7m',ESC,')0' DB 'd',XSO,'x',XSI DB 'i',XSO,'x',XSI DB 'g',XSO,'x',XSI DB 'i',XSO,'x',XSI DB 't',XSO,'x',XSI DB 'a',XSO,'x',XSI DB 'l',ESC,'[m ' DB 'Robin--VT180' DB ' Overlay V' DB REV/10+'0' DB '.' DB REV MOD 10+'0' DB '$' ; CRLF: DB CR,LF,'$' ; ; ; OVREND: EQU $ ; See if it'll fit IF OVREND / 0B00H +++ VT180 OVERLAY TOO LARGE - OVREND >= 0B00H +++ ENDIF ; ; END --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 29 19:33:29 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:15 2005 Subject: HELP! ( totally OT) - Hitachi Monitor problem In-Reply-To: <001101bf2268$c332e920$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> from "Richard Erlacher" at Oct 29, 99 05:53:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5573 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991030/ae48bbb3/attachment.ksh From a2k at one.net Fri Oct 29 19:57:44 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:15 2005 Subject: Using insults when arguments fail In-Reply-To: <381731C8.D89F5A71@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: > > Oh dear. You're suggesting there's something unusual about a raised floor > in the family room? :-) > > Best, > Chris We're finishing the basement this winter. In my computer room I'm thinking of installing a fake floor if I can find one... next to my full groovy little darkroom (woowoo! It sucks trying to do ANYTHING at school cuz periods are only 55 minutes long! ) Kevin Anybody got floor tiles? From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Oct 29 20:17:10 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:15 2005 Subject: Vt180, whats the story here? In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Oct 29, 1999 11:34:48 pm" Message-ID: <199910300117.UAA21798@thufir.cs.umn.edu> > > > First a short summary, Something I have been giving for > > awhile, I got a free Vt180 terminal. AT least Thats what It says on > > the front. but on the back on the nameplate it says its aa Vt100-AA! I > > am wondering if the AVO and the Secondary Processor part (STP) was > > Quite possibly. You can add the AVO to any VT100 (and it remains a VT100 > IIRC, although doubtless the suffix changes). And then add the STP (or a > graphics option or...) A VT132 is a VT100 with AVO. There are no other differences. A VT125 is a STP board that is also called a Graphics processor board. I happen to have a VT100 series Technical Manual. Also a VT640 manual (also known as a Retrographics board). -Lawrence LeMay > > > added later on. It works GREAT as a vt100 but I have ran into a few > > brick walls trying to find a EK-vt100-UG Vt100 Users Guide. I can order > > it from Digital/Compaq for $25 but I rather not dip into my grocery > > money for a technical manual. I have not found out anything on how > > to set the printer up on it. or how to use the Vt180 part of it. or > > for that matter, how do I RIP that OUT! if I cannot get a boot disk > > for it... its worthless anyway. Here is my questions. Please help me > > best you can here: > > 1. what is Advanced Video Option (AVO) and how do I use it? > > Physically it's a daughterboard on the VT100 logic board that contains > some extra video RAM, etc. It allows you to have 24 rows of 132 > characters, extra text attributes, etc. > > Unless it's faulty, leave it in place. It can do no harm, and in general > it makes the VT100 work like most modern programs expect a VT100 to > behave. > > > 2. If the STP is the VT180 part how do I REMOVE it! *if I want > > plain Vt100, while maintaining AVO) > > I believe the STP _is_ the VT180 processor. > > I am going to guess a bit here. My guess is that the STP connects to a > paddleboard that goes into the edge connector on the VT100 logic board. > This is a very clever piece of DEC design -- the contacts on this edge > connector are designed to touch if there's no PCB inserts. By so doing > they connect the VT100 logic to the RS232 connector on the back. By > inserting a PCB you can intercept this connection, allowing the VT100 > terminal to talk to the STP and also the STP to talk to the host via the > RS232 connector. > > A second guess is that if you remove the PCB from this edge connector, > the thing goes back to being a normal VT100. > > > [...] > > > 4. What is the Graphics option? can I still get one? is that > > for bit mapped graphics? howis it used? can the graphics be used via > > Linux with graphics display utility or a plotting program (gnupplot). > > DEC made a thing called a VT105, which is a VT100 with a 'waveform > generator' board in it. This was a 'graphics' terminal, but you could > only display 2 points in each vertical column (or all points _below_ one > of those points). It was thus ideal for drawing graphs or barcharts but > not a lot of use for drawing anything else. > > There were 3rd party graphics cards as well. One that I remember was > called a 'retrographics'. They normally emulated a Tektronix 4000 series > terminal on the (raster-scan) VT100 display. > > As to whether linux can drive them, well, both of the above were > controlled by control sequences sent over the RS232 port, which > obviously linux can do. As to whether gnuplot can do it, well, I would > think it could drive a Tekky 4000 (since most things can...), but I doubt > if it can do the VT105. > > No idea where you get either of these boards, either... > > > [...] > > > 6. who has the sticker (in sticker form) that goes on the > > bottom of the vt100 keyboard showing the setup B screen and I/O toggle > > possitions. > > >From the left : > > Block 1: > Scroll (0=jump, 1=smooth) > Autorepeat (0=off, 1=on) > Screen (0=dark background, 1=light background) > Cursor (0=underline, 1=block) > > Block 2: > Margin bell (0=off, 1=on) > Keyclick (0=off, 1=on) > Emulation (0=VT52, 1=ANSI) > Auto Xon/Xoff (0=off, 1=on) > > Block 3: > Shifted-3 (0=#, 1=\pounds) > Wrap around (0=off, 1=on) > New line (0=off, 1=on) > Interlace (0=off,1=on) > > Block 4: > Parity (0=odd, 1=even) > Parity (0=off, 1=on) > Bits/Char (0=7bits, 1=8bits) > Power (0=60Hz, 1=50Hz) > > > [...] > > > 8. Since it has Composite In and Composite out. Does it have a > > built in genlock allowing me to at least use the Vt100 to do titling > > and captions; then sending the output to a second Video Recording > > unit. if titleing is not possible, what is Composite video IN for?? > > There is no genlock, the VT100 has to be the sync generator. > > Composite out is what you expect -- a composite feed to an external > monitor, etc. > > Composite in is strange. You first have to extract the sync from the > composite out socket, and lock an external video source to that. You can > then feed the output of that video source into the composite in socket, > where it will be displayed on the VT100 screen, overlayed with the text > from the VT100 itself. But notice the external source is synced to the > VT100 and not the reverse. > > > While we are on the issue of DEC stuff. Who has the full list > > of the Control Codes for the Rainbow 100's terminal mode? How come > > when I fire up CP/M Modem7 or 8? I can use the Previous Screen/Next > > Screen keys and yet in the ROM Vt100 emulation Neither key works? Is > > PResumably the Modem7 program is rather more user-friendlt than the one > in ROM... Next/Prev screen were not VT100 features, AFAIK, so I guess DEC > didn't see any need to make them work with the built-in VT100 emulator. > > -tony > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 29 19:53:19 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:15 2005 Subject: Vt180, whats the story here? In-Reply-To: from "B'ichela" at Oct 29, 99 08:18:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3167 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991030/29c5e662/attachment.ksh From elmo at hotpop.com Fri Oct 29 20:27:15 1999 From: elmo at hotpop.com (Eliot Moore) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:15 2005 Subject: SoCal: Free LA120 Ribbons; UPS; VT220's; Wyse 85; VGA Monitor; DOS Dev Software Message-ID: <381A4973.B28B2F3@hotpop.com> I have the following for free, you pickup, in Santa Monica, or I may be able to drop off within LA County this weekend: 2-3 VT220 with keyboard 1 Wyse 85 with keyboard 1 MinuteMan 500 UPS (dead, old) 30 LA120 ribbons (clone) 5 Comdial/ITT/ATT 2500 sets, Beige, er, "putty" 1 ATT Model 100 Wall Phone, White 2 TT Systems 4-line phones (no wall warts), Grey Plus some rather old MSDOS development tools on 5.25": RTLink Plus V6.1 RTPatch Microsoft C 5.1 Microsoft C/C++ Central Point AntiVirus Greenleaf C Comm Library Greenleaf DataWindows Central Point PC-Tools PC Anywhere III Desqview 386 + API PKWare Library Please let me know ASAP if you have an interest and include phone numbers. Regards, Eliot From austinh at ibm.net Fri Oct 29 20:54:05 1999 From: austinh at ibm.net (Hal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:15 2005 Subject: PCjr E-mail client Message-ID: <381A4FBC.C8BE7B8D@ibm.net> Greetings I have a PCjr which I would like to use as an E-mail client. Are you aware of any software which I could use via my ISP (formerly IBM and now ATT worldnet). I also have PCjr hardware for which I would like to find a good home. Thanks in advance for help you can provide. Hal Austin Staatsburg NY From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Oct 29 21:09:26 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:15 2005 Subject: Vt180, whats the story here? Message-ID: <991029220926.276000e9@trailing-edge.com> >I happen to have a VT100 series Technical Manual. Also a VT640 >manual (also known as a Retrographics board). The VT640/Retrographics upgrade makes an *extremely* usable graphics terminal. My favorite plotting package, PLOTDATA (aka PHYSICA) uses it, and the package is available for VMS and many Unices at ftp://ftp.triumf.ca/physica/ -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Oct 29 21:30:59 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:15 2005 Subject: PCjr E-mail client Message-ID: <0.bc01cbf6.254bb263@aol.com> In a message dated 10/29/99 9:54:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, austinh@ibm.net writes: > I have a PCjr which I would like to use as an E-mail client. Are you > aware of > any software which I could use via my ISP (formerly IBM and now ATT > worldnet). > closest thing that would work would be nettamer. do a web search on it. should work with 256k if your jr has been upgraded to it. DB Young Team OS/2 --> this message printed on recycled disk space view the computers of yesteryear at http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm (now accepting donations!) From mdalene at home.ctol.net Fri Oct 29 21:46:34 1999 From: mdalene at home.ctol.net (B'ichela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:15 2005 Subject: DEC stuff is so cool! They were sneaky and smart! Message-ID: I tried that downgrade from VT180 to Vt100 and you know what? it Works! Now heres a little Cool (good compliment) to those wonderous DEC engineers who must have loved to play with weird and unusual designs. Py point of View also stems from my expirence with my Rainbow 100 Computer and what I learned about Both the Vt180 and the Rainbow 100. DEC's engineers loved to lay their add-on boards flat. Unlike the IBM Pc type of Perpendudicular layout. Dec loves to stack addons on top of addons! Lets see, the VT100's AVO is stacked on top of the Controller, the STP board has a small satelite board on top of it. (I made a goof when I said there was an ocilator circut on it. it consists of 3 chips. Lets say you wanted to make an Addon for the AVO.. EASY! Stack one More on it. Oh yeah, you are out of room there. Oh well. so run a ribbon cable to the two Empty Card cage slots of my Vt180! These people from reading "Hackers" loved to allow people to tinker with their stuff, Dec loved them so much that they sold Service manuals with diagnostics and programming info! I have the Rainbow 100 TEchnical guide and the admendum which tells you alot about How the various boards work! In fact the MIT hackers added additonal instructions to thier PDP computers (the older transistorinzed one *PDP 8?) Its quite a shock compared to the modern plastic, glued shut and disposable technoligy of today). Their Idea of a Self Shorting Card slot blew my mind! Never saw anything like that in my 31 years of life! Remove the STP and what you got? a standard WORKING Vt100? No soldering! No trace cutting? and I love this! No DIP Switches to switch! In fact I bet one could even replace that STP with a generic computer such as the SB180! or perhaps the guts of a H89 (using the Vt100 as a console! While we are praising the older computer technoligy lets not forget the H19/H88/H89 system. Like the Vt180 it was a terminal (H19) with the CPU daugher board BEHIND the Terminal controller. From my futzing with the system to fix my H88 that broke. (No, sigh.. its long gone) You had to unbolt the board, unplug the Serial cable to the H19 board plug one of the serial cables from a serial port into the h19 connector and Volia! Instant H19 Terminal! and it had a "Flip Top" Case! A pearl of wisdom from the y2K newsgroups: ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Y2K appears to be the Baby Boomers mid-life crisis, and it has the potential to be a dandy. -- Anonymnous -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- B'ichela From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Oct 29 22:05:22 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:15 2005 Subject: Vt180, whats the story here? Message-ID: <199910300305.XAA26834@world.std.com> < First a short summary, Something I have been giving for > Composite in is strange. You first have to extract the sync from the <> > composite out socket, and lock an external video source to that. You ca <> > then feed the output of that video source into the composite in socket, Older video sources like cameras were deigned to be genlocked off somthing else and had two cables (the one I'd seen) and the sync return was usually from the output of the GENlock/timebase to the VT100 and a TEE connector seemed to work for that. Should work for color as well. Allison From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Oct 29 22:59:54 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:15 2005 Subject: KM-11 clone (was Re: Ongoing excavations - PDP-8/e) Message-ID: <19991030035954.6472.rocketmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I'd _love_ to have a KM11 card. > > > > > > Make one!. I've posted the instructions to this list (and other places) > > > before, and I'll post them again if anyone is interested. Cool. Thanks. > How to build a clone of the DEC KM11 maintenance module > Components : > 4 * ULN2803 What's this? I don't recognize the part number. > The meanings of the LED's and switches are shown in the DEC maintenance > manual or Engineering drawings for the particular device. If you don't know > what they are, I may be able to look them up for you. I could use the info on what the lights mean for an RX01. Thanks muchly, -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Oct 29 23:07:24 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:15 2005 Subject: Vt180, whats the story here? In-Reply-To: <991029220926.276000e9@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at "Oct 29, 1999 10:09:26 pm" Message-ID: <199910300407.XAA21909@thufir.cs.umn.edu> > >I happen to have a VT100 series Technical Manual. Also a VT640 > >manual (also known as a Retrographics board). > > The VT640/Retrographics upgrade makes an *extremely* usable graphics > terminal. My favorite plotting package, PLOTDATA (aka PHYSICA) uses > it, and the package is available for VMS and many Unices at > > ftp://ftp.triumf.ca/physica/ Hmm, all i ever used it for, was to download raster images, yet still using the regular VT100 capabilities. I used to put a head shot of Mr Spock in the upper right corner of the screen, it really freaked people out... "a VT100 cant DO that! How did you Do That???" Fear programmers. -Lawrence LeMay > > -- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Oct 29 23:29:07 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:15 2005 Subject: HELP! ( totally OT) - Hitachi Monitor problem In-Reply-To: References: <001101bf2268$c332e920$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> from "Richard Erlacher" at Oct 29, 99 05:53:12 pm Message-ID: >> Agreed, though the original from the mfg is normally only available during >> the first year or two of ownership. I have the Nissan manual for my Maxima, > >If/when I buy a car, the first thing I do is order the official shop Someone told me once that for a Mercedes you order the shop manual using the VIN number and for about $500 you get the manual for your specific car. Personally as far as it goes for manuals if it doesn't say dummy's I don't get it. ;) From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Oct 30 00:16:22 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:15 2005 Subject: SoCal: Free LA120 Ribbons; UPS; VT220's; Wyse 85; VGA Monitor; DOS Dev Software In-Reply-To: <381A4973.B28B2F3@hotpop.com> Message-ID: >I have the following for free, you pickup, in Santa Monica, or I may be >able to drop off within LA County this weekend: > >2-3 VT220 with keyboard >1 Wyse 85 with keyboard >1 MinuteMan 500 UPS (dead, old) >30 LA120 ribbons (clone) >5 Comdial/ITT/ATT 2500 sets, Beige, er, "putty" >1 ATT Model 100 Wall Phone, White >2 TT Systems 4-line phones (no wall warts), Grey > >Plus some rather old MSDOS development tools on 5.25": > > RTLink Plus V6.1 > RTPatch > Microsoft C 5.1 > Microsoft C/C++ > Central Point AntiVirus > Greenleaf C Comm Library > Greenleaf DataWindows > Central Point PC-Tools > PC Anywhere III > Desqview 386 + API > PKWare Library > >Please let me know ASAP if you have an interest and include phone >numbers. > >Regards, >Eliot John says you may be coming to TRW, if so I would like the UPS and PC anywhere. Anything I can offer in trade? (ask, I may have it) Cheers, Mike Ford From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Oct 30 03:06:20 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:15 2005 Subject: SoCal: Free LA120 Ribbons; UPS In-Reply-To: References: <381A4973.B28B2F3@hotpop.com> Message-ID: >Cheers, Mike Ford I give up, from now on I am just posting all my personal email to the list so at least I will be consistent. Even worse I can't blame it on microsoft, since I use Eudora. From bobstek at ix.netcom.com Sat Oct 30 06:44:05 1999 From: bobstek at ix.netcom.com (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:15 2005 Subject: Diablo HyType II Ribbons available Message-ID: I have 20 sealed in plastic, unopened Diablo HyType II ribbons - high capacity black multi-strike - which I would like to send to a good home. Shipping (plus an issue or two of any 1976-1982 micro magazines you happen to have a duplicate of - or a working Altair or Apple I ), and they are yours. Bob Stek bobstek@ix.netcom.com Saver of Lost SOLs From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Oct 30 07:55:29 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:15 2005 Subject: KM-11 clone (was Re: Ongoing excavations - PDP-8/e) Message-ID: <991030085529.27600139@trailing-edge.com> >> How to build a clone of the DEC KM11 maintenance module >> Components : >> 4 * ULN2803 > >What's this? I don't recognize the part number. It's a Darlington array. When I got started the part number belonged to Sprague, now Allegro Micro sells them - see http://www.allegromicro.com/ If you fetch the 2803 data sheet, you'll see that it still proudly claims that the inputs are DTL compatible :-). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From mbg at world.std.com Sat Oct 30 11:05:22 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:15 2005 Subject: DEC stuff is so cool! They were sneaky and smart! Message-ID: <199910301605.MAA01886@world.std.com> > Their Idea of a Self Shorting Card slot blew my mind! Never saw >anything like that in my 31 years of life! Remove the STP and what you >got? a standard WORKING Vt100? No soldering! No trace cutting? and I love >this! No DIP Switches to switch! Many years ago, I took one of the 20ma current loop options and added a DPDT switch to it, the four wires from the switch snaked to a piece of a two-sided card which slid into the stp slot of the VT100. With the 'card' (only two fingers wide) inserted in the stp slot, the switch allowed me to switch between the EIA connector on the back of the VT100 and the 20ma current loop connector... I still have the modified option... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 30 13:39:29 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:15 2005 Subject: DEC stuff is so cool! They were sneaky and smart! In-Reply-To: from "B'ichela" at Oct 29, 99 10:46:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3849 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991030/563acbbe/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 30 14:11:29 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:15 2005 Subject: KM-11 clone (was Re: Ongoing excavations - PDP-8/e) In-Reply-To: <19991030035954.6472.rocketmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 29, 99 08:59:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1024 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991030/7d9dab69/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 30 14:13:18 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:15 2005 Subject: HELP! ( totally OT) - Hitachi Monitor problem In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Oct 29, 99 09:29:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 335 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991030/a1a212a6/attachment.ksh From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sat Oct 30 16:12:15 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:15 2005 Subject: DEC stuff is so cool! They were sneaky and smart! Message-ID: <19991030211215.5275.rocketmail@ web605.yahoomail.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > There's a thing called a VT103 (which I don't have :-(). I do. I always wanted to turn it into a semi-portable UNIX machine > It's a VT100 with a 4-slot Q-bus backplane inside (!). Some even had TU-58's in the front. > There's a paddleboard in > the STP slot that links to 2 ports on a DLV11-J (4-port RS232) card in > the backplane. *That* I don't have. :-( > The VT100 becomes the console for whatever processor you > stick in the Q-bus, while the connector on the back is a normal serial > port, also on the Q-bus system... For compact systems, the MXV-11 also works with the paddle card - two ports and some memory. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sat Oct 30 17:35:32 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:15 2005 Subject: DEC stuff is so cool! They were sneaky and smart! In-Reply-To: <19991030211215.5275.rocketmail@ web605.yahoomail.com> from Ethan Dicks at "Oct 30, 1999 2:12:15 pm" Message-ID: <199910302235.SAA27102@pechter.dyndns.org> > > > --- Tony Duell wrote: > > There's a thing called a VT103 (which I don't have :-(). > > I do. I always wanted to turn it into a semi-portable UNIX machine > > > It's a VT100 with a 4-slot Q-bus backplane inside (!). I've got an unused one sitting in the garage. I've got some docs somewhere on how to rewire the backplane for uVaxII's. > > There's a paddleboard in > > the STP slot that links to 2 ports on a DLV11-J (4-port RS232) card in > > the backplane. > > *That* I don't have. :-( Ah yesss... I'm not sure if there's one in mine. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sat Oct 30 17:41:12 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:15 2005 Subject: Vt180, whats the story here? In-Reply-To: <199910300305.XAA26910@world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Oct 29, 1999 11: 5:35 pm" Message-ID: <199910302241.SAA27185@pechter.dyndns.org> > I still keep a hybrid VT100 that has VT125, VT180 and PDT11/130(the VT180 > card and the PDT can be swapped in a moment as both would cook the PS nor > woth the fit!) in the same case. Definately not factory but it allows me > to have something that is a genuine VT100 for those times when nothing else > will do. Could the VT103 supply handle the load of this stuff...? Hmmm... > > I think Bernie, me and a few odd people had real VT185s. They were scarce. > The reason was the interconnect card (different STP card than plain > VT100/VT180) was needed and I don't think it ever got to production. Is Bernie still around? I'd love to make ZCPR2 and ZCPR3 for the Rainbow available to the net but I'd need his ok... > > > Allison > Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sat Oct 30 17:47:44 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:15 2005 Subject: Vt180, whats the story here? In-Reply-To: <199910300117.UAA21798@thufir.cs.umn.edu> from Lawrence LeMay at "Oct 29, 1999 8:17:10 pm" Message-ID: <199910302247.SAA27217@pechter.dyndns.org> > A VT132 is a VT100 with AVO. There are no other differences. Wrong... (I think). My memory may be hazy but... The VT132 (and 131 I believe) both were capable of block mode. The 132 (I thought) was a 102 with block mode, AVO and Printer port capability. The VT131 had Block mode, STP, AVO done the old way... All three options and different roms. The 132 was a cost reduced 131 based on the 102 which came standard with 24 lines of 132 (without AVO) -- It was built in the standard VT102 logic board. The VT101 was a 102 without the AVO memory (I think) and was the bottom of the line VT10x in cost. I think the 102 and 132 allows hardware flow control like the VT220. There were some interesting illegal (and legal) escape codes that did interesting different bugs to the VT100, 101 and 102 based on their setup settings. One of these bugs caused hell for VT102 and 101 users when the EDT program slowed their scrolling down to a crawl back around VMS 3.2 or so. > -Lawrence LeMay Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From siconic at jasmine.psyber.com Sat Oct 30 19:16:22 1999 From: siconic at jasmine.psyber.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:15 2005 Subject: Unified e-mail address for Sellam Ismail Message-ID: Effective immediately I am shedding the e-mail address. My primary and sole e-mail address is now . Please use for all your future e-mails. Thank you. Sellam International Man of Intrique and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF East? VCF Europe!? YOU BETCHA!! Stay tuned for more information or contact me to find out how you can participate http://www.vintage.org From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Oct 30 19:48:11 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:15 2005 Subject: DEC stuff is so cool! They were sneaky and smart! Message-ID: <199910310048.UAA06121@world.std.com> It's a VT100 with a 4-slot Q-bus backplane inside (!). Actually it was 3 quad wide or 6 AB slots. There's a paddleboard in <> the STP slot that links to 2 ports on a DLV11-J (4-port RS232) card in <> the backplane. < <*That* I don't have. :-( Not required just means different cables. The STP card interconneccted the VT100 but you could to that with a cable from the VT100 DB25 to a MXV11 or DLV11j just as easily. <> The VT100 becomes the console for whatever processor you <> stick in the Q-bus, while the connector on the back is a normal serial <> port, also on the Q-bus system... If you have that STP card. Otherwise it's just a console and you use a modem program to (VTcom, Vterm). Message-ID: <381B96B6.B88A3D6B@rain.org> At TRW today, I found the technical manual for the Pertec F3000 Disk Formatter. The covers are in rough condition with the back cover torn off, but it appears to be complete and the the inside pages are mostly in very good condition. If anyone wants this, $4.00 including Priority Mail shipping. From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sat Oct 30 22:13:54 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:15 2005 Subject: fwd: Old computer stuff Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19991030201354.038079a8@agora.rdrop.com> Some potentially interesting stuff for rescue in the Utah area. Please reply off-list to the original poster -jim ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >From: pmarzolf@juno.com >Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 11:11:22 -0600 >Subject: Old computer stuff >X-Mailer: Juno 3.0.13 >X-Status: > >I am the oldest programer still programming >in the basic language. > >Through the years of programing I have collected >alot of computer stuff. It starts with programes >written for LGP-30 in 1956. > >I can't find anyone except the dump for all this >stuff. I guess my problem is it is not on the >west coast. If you or you know any one that >would be interested I would like to hear from >them. > >Paul V Marzolf >2761 Morningside Dr. >Salt Lake City, Ut 84124 >Email >pmarzolf@juno.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Oct 30 23:03:29 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:15 2005 Subject: TRW finds In-Reply-To: <381B96B6.B88A3D6B@rain.org> References: Message-ID: Since I don't have clue about "what" we found, I will just set the stage for John and Marvin, by highlighting my PIVOTAL role.... TRW strictly enforces no sales after 11:30 am, which clears the place out, and gets a lot of people setting out free stuff. Our happy band was about to go our various ways, and on my way out of the lot I spotted some 8" drives. "PDP 11" was all I needed to read to know I should run after John and drag him over (OK I barely kept up with him, but still). Not 50 feet from his spot were a couple of guys with a bunch of stuff. No idea how we missed it initially. (leaving it to others to describe). I resisted going through the half dozen old PCs, but did grab a storage box full of 5.25 floppy discs. In case Marvin is wondering, the crazy guy running behind his car and waving was me with a couple tray things of paper tapes. For me it was the best of all possible events, I find some neat stuff, and other people carry it off to fill their dwellings instead of mine.;) Fun day and good to see all the people who came out. From JusmeSJ at aol.com Sun Oct 31 00:29:57 1999 From: JusmeSJ at aol.com (JusmeSJ@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:15 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon Message-ID: <0.63461238.254d2dd5@aol.com> Hi, I ran accross your message in a web search. I have a working and currently running Northstar Horizon, I have parts like drive controller, i/o, mamory cards and a few teac drives. I also have alot of documentation on northstar Horizon & Advantage computers, plus software like N*Basic, N*Cp/m etc. Are u building one? need help getting it goin let me know. Steve Benedict Redwood City, California From cbajpai at mediaone.net Sun Oct 31 05:43:28 1999 From: cbajpai at mediaone.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:15 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <0.63461238.254d2dd5@aol.com> Message-ID: I just got a NorthStar Advantage...Will the software you have work on this system? BTW- The system works and boots great, but the only problem I have is the keyboard. I understand it needs a cleaning...Is this an easy task or should I get a replacement keyboard (if possible). Thanks, Chandra -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of JusmeSJ@aol.com Sent: Sunday, October 31, 1999 1:30 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Northstar Horizon Hi, I ran accross your message in a web search. I have a working and currently running Northstar Horizon, I have parts like drive controller, i/o, mamory cards and a few teac drives. I also have alot of documentation on northstar Horizon & Advantage computers, plus software like N*Basic, N*Cp/m etc. Are u building one? need help getting it goin let me know. Steve Benedict Redwood City, California From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Sun Oct 31 06:55:11 1999 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:15 2005 Subject: My new toys: Apollo and Osborne 1 Message-ID: <000c01bf239f$2bb1ad60$213cc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Wouter de Waal wrote: >The 3500 has the following: > >9988 rev 3 memory card (no idea of it's size) >3com ethernet card >9016 (RGB video adaptor) >WD7000 scsi/hdd controller The WD7000 is an ESDI controller >tape drive >unknown > >Unfortunately I don't have the RGB cable or the monitor. > >Questions: > >* Can I use the mono display adaptor in the 3500? Can I run one > of these boxen without a display card, or do they check like > peecees? > >* How ISA compatible is the ISA bus? Can I stick a VGA card in > there and expect it to work (OK, I know I'll have to write > the code (port the VGA BIOS) but I mean electrically? Or > an IDE controller? > The bus is completely incompatible with the PC ISA bus. Nothing is likely to work. >* Where can I find memory maps, circuit diagrams, whatever? > >* How rare are these beasts? I gather they're common? Any > objections to me ripping out all the cards and the boot > rom, sticking vmebug in the socket, and an IDE drive in > the bay, and playing with the thing? > I have one I found complete in a dumpster. There were many color monitors with it but I only took one because they are so huge. It didn't have a monitor cable with it but I have one from a Decstation that works OK. They run a unique OS called Domain which I don't have. Mine has a 300meg ESDI drive and a tape drive. I've had mine up as far as looking for something to boot from. Hans From jhfine at idirect.com Sun Oct 31 08:37:50 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: DEC stuff is so cool! They were sneaky and smart! References: Message-ID: <381C543E.3988E138@idirect.com> >Tony Duell wrote: > > anything like that in my 31 years of life! Remove the STP and what you > > got? a standard WORKING Vt100? No soldering! No trace cutting? and I love > > this! No DIP Switches to switch! > > In fact I bet one could even replace that STP with a generic > > computer such as the SB180! or perhaps the guts of a H89 (using the Vt100 > > as a console! > You can. There's a thing called a VT103 (which I don't have :-(). It's a > VT100 with a 4-slot Q-bus backplane inside (!). There's a paddleboard in > the STP slot that links to 2 ports on a DLV11-J (4-port RS232) card in > the backplane. The VT100 becomes the console for whatever processor you > stick in the Q-bus, while the connector on the back is a normal serial > port, also on the Q-bus system... Jerome Fine replies: I actually have a couple of VT103 systems. Only ONE has the STP paddleboard. So if someone has a spare paddleboard, it would be appreciated - if you have a VT103 that no longer works is about the only way that will happen. In point of fact, while the paddleboard is convenient - actually extremely convenient - it is not necessary. From what I understand, the paddleboard has the circuitry to re-route the "console port" from the DLV11-J directly to the terminal without going through the DB-25 in the back as a normal VT100 would require. PLUS, the second channel in the paddle board then takes over the circuit to the DB-25 in the back which becomes an output port - usually to a printer, but it can be sent to any other device as well including another terminal. What is VERY unique at that point is that the SETUP selections which normally control the baud rate for the console device are used instead for the DB-25 in the back (as they were designed to control in the first place). If someone is interested in this explanation and did not understand, please ask for clarification. NOW, without the paddleboard, just use everything in the usual manner. The backplane in the VT103 and the "console" device are now entirely separate. Use the DLV11-J in the normal manner and connect the cable from the "console port" on the DLV11-J to the DB-25 on the back of the VT103 (VT100 in a wolf's costume). One point which probably needs to be clarified is that when the paddle board is in use, DO NOT connect the baud rate wire wrap pins for those channels to the baud rate pins. The use of the paddleboard means that the baud rate must "float". The console is automatically set to 9600 baud at that point and the "secondary port" is set by the SETUP options on the VT103 itself. If the paddleboard is not used, set the baud rate wire wrap pins in the normal manner. FINALLY, the 2 VT103 systems that I have are 22 bit backplanes. The extra 4 address lines have been soldered at each of the 8 required points. Thus, they are able to (and on occasion just to test that it was possible) manage all 4 MBytes of memory for a PDP-11 system. HOWEVER, (EXTREME????) WARNING!! I have been told to never put a M8190 (KDJ11-Bx) board into this backplane. Since the backplane is ABAB, NOT ABCD, the M8190 quad boards do not feel comfortable and may be severely damaged. Can someone please comment on this point?? The use of a dual M8192 11/73 is very acceptable, but some sort of boot rom is then required - usually on a third party disk controller. ALSO EXTREME WARNING!! The standard power supply for a VT103 is able to output ONLY 16 amps on the 5 volts and very little on the 12 volts. That includes the video board and the AVO as well. I don't have the figures handy - ask if you need them. However, with a third party MFM disk controller which needs only 2 amps on the 5 volts plus an 11/23 (M8186), DLV11-J, 256 KBytes of memory, RXV12 (M8049) and even a DRV11 (5 boards all together), there is still enough power left over to run an RD51 (ST412 from Seagate). That was placed under the tube with about minus 1/64" (it had to be squeezed in very carefully) to spare. The incarnation I saw running even had a switch on the front to transfer the power feed from internal to external for long term running of the disk drive - evidently the person who placed the hard drive under the tube wanted to be able to run the hard drive from an external power supply - probably a PC power supply so as not the overload the VT103 except for short demos (or so I was told). There was also a set of cables out the back to allow a second MFM drive to be attached to the controller to expand the hard drive capacity. Needless to say, that system was much faster than using a TU58 as the system device. While I definitely agree that the VT103 was a very interesting piece of hardware, what I do not understand is why it was not extended - unless DEC was so loath to admit that it could not add a hard drive at that point since an RQDX1 or RQDX2 (both quad boards) required 6 amps on the 5 volts just for the controller plus another board for the boot ROMs and that would have required a much better power supply. The VT103 appeared long before the RQDX3 was available. What was very interesting when the VT103 was used for a demo was that it could not be distinguished, at first glance, from a simple VT100. So when the system was turned on and it started up running an OS and all that by itself, it made quite an impression - especially with the hard drive inside which was totally unexpected. This was especially true if the usually unlabeled VT103 top plastic housing was switched with a VT100. The only clue would be that the VT103 has a fan inside the space where the boards are kept whereas the VT100 does not. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Oct 31 09:29:39 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: New Finds Message-ID: <000a01bf23b4$bff43000$b6701fd1@jrkeysppt> Went to the big Hamfest and Computer Expo here in St. Paul MN yesterday and found a few gems. Some are not yet 10 years old but getting there. I got HP 700/RX model C27088; a lot of ThinkPad items; new test patch cords 50 cents never opened; tons of software for various machines; early AdLib PC music system in the box; Sanyo EPROM programmer; lots of cables; some good books on microprocessors; new books on the Apple Newton; Heatkit service manuals, for keyboards,FD controllers,computers, portables, etc.; a MAC Portable Owner's guide in like new condition; and many other items (over 70). It was a fun day and I got to talk with other collectors there from our list. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991031/2c43bd91/attachment.html From lance at costanzo.net Sun Oct 31 09:32:47 1999 From: lance at costanzo.net (Lance Costanzo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: RSTS/E Message-ID: <3.0.32.19991031073245.006c620c@costanzo.net> At 03:16 PM 10/29/1999 -0400, you wrote: > >Hi, > >I am playing with the PDP11 emulator by Bob Supnik, and I have a running RSTS/E. > >I just recently figgured out how to add new users.. >I am still trying to figgure out how to send files to the "lineprinter" >and how to punch files RSTS was one of the first systems I hacked. We used to make changes to the kernel on disk (like non-priving the peek() statement), then crash it. The operators would reboot and the changes would take effect. Hey, I was in college at the time. IIRC (and most times I don't), you wrote print files to disk and used the 'que' program to send it to the system print queue. You may also be able to open 'lp0:' and write directly. Lance Costanzo http://www.webhighrise.com System Administrator Website and Virtual Domain Hosting lance@costanzo.net starting at $5/month, no setup fees From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Oct 31 10:35:21 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: DEC stuff is so cool! They were sneaky and smart! Message-ID: <199910311635.LAA19485@world.std.com> ) and external to DEC. Allison From edick at idcomm.com Sun Oct 31 11:01:22 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon Message-ID: <001d01bf23c1$8fccfee0$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> I am not, nor have I been, trying to get a Horizon, or any other model of N* going. I recently arranged to give away my last bit of N* hardware, a Z80A CPU card. I have had lots of trouble finding people who would take it. The problem, of course, isn't that they don't work, because they do, and very well, too, but rather that the N* environment is so limited, particularly in the Horizon with its 8K ROM space, that many compiled programs won't work because the TPA is too small. What's more, the FDC isn't capable using of CP/M-standard (IBM-3740, SSSD 8") diskettes. They're OK as a curiosity, but back in the lat '70's and early '80's, they were not well received because of the TPA and FDC issues mentioned above, and I warn everyone off them due to their resulting limitations. regards, Dick -----Original Message----- From: JusmeSJ@aol.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, October 30, 1999 10:30 PM Subject: Northstar Horizon >Hi, I ran accross your message in a web search. I have a working and >currently running Northstar Horizon, I have parts like drive controller, i/o, >mamory cards and a few teac drives. I also have alot of documentation on >northstar Horizon & Advantage computers, plus software like N*Basic, N*Cp/m >etc. Are u building one? need help getting it goin let me know. > >Steve Benedict >Redwood City, California From marvin at rain.org Sun Oct 31 11:30:45 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: TRW Finds References: <001d01bf23c1$8fccfee0$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Message-ID: <381C7CC5.31393F78@rain.org> The best thing I am aware of was a Cosmac Elf that was *given* away! We all missed that one. There were also three Z80 development systems with the documentation for $100 lot. As usual, there was the usual array of misc. stuff. I picked up a box of Apple manuals, etc. for $5 including a practical Peripherals SNAPSHOT board. Someone said there was an H89 there for $5 but when I went to look, couldn't find it. I did find someone with some Apple II computers, and it is beginning to look like I might finally get a plain II! All in all, it was a fun time with most of us using John's space as a central meeting place. At the rate we are going, we will start having enough people down there to have to get a bigger meeting place :). From af-list at is1.wfi-inc.com Sun Oct 31 11:35:59 1999 From: af-list at is1.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: SparcPrinter available, SoCal only please Message-ID: Hi all, I've got a SparcPrinter with the lp card and cables that could be available to a local (too heavy/delicate to ship). I also have a Sparc1 hanging around that you could turn into a print server. No reasonable (or other) offers refused, trades are great. If someone out of the area is absolutely desperate for one, I'll drive it over to Mailboxes etc at your expense/liability... Sorry it's not quite to the list's definition of "classic" (soon!), but I thought someone on the list might be able to use it. It's actually a pretty decent laser printer, just kind of slow. Using the Sparc1 w/Linux, you could set it up as a print server for Unix/Windows/Macintosh machines (I have the lpviio.h file to modify Ghostscript too). I'm just out of room and just got an Apple Personal Laserwriter NTR for my desk, so something's got to go. Cheers, Aaron From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 31 10:41:02 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: My new toys: Apollo and Osborne 1 In-Reply-To: <000c01bf239f$2bb1ad60$213cc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> from "Olminkhof" at Oct 31, 99 11:55:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 808 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991031/3e54d4a7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 31 10:50:15 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: DEC stuff is so cool! They were sneaky and smart! In-Reply-To: <381C543E.3988E138@idirect.com> from "Jerome Fine" at Oct 31, 99 09:37:50 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3301 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991031/626973f3/attachment.ksh From siconic at jasmine.psyber.com Sun Oct 31 11:58:23 1999 From: siconic at jasmine.psyber.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: Old Tandy Computer (fwd) Message-ID: Anybody interested in this Tandy 1000? Please contact the owner directly. Reply-to: jjones2@csuhayward.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 14:17:54 -0700 From: Jean Jones Subject: Old Tandy Computer Hi, I have a Tandy 1000 w/ dot matrix printer and monitor in my garage. I have floppies to go with it. Desk mate etc. DOS 3.0 on floppy to run it Word perfect 5.0 on floppies Well, it still works(sound effects and all) In fact, it only left my 12 year-old son's room LAST MONTH to live in garage. He wrote his 6th grade reports on it last year in WP 5.0 I guess I am crazy, but will not let this vintage 1980 computer go to the dump. Are you interested??? Will donate to good home!! J2 Sellam International Man of Intrique and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF East? VCF Europe!? YOU BETCHA!! Stay tuned for more information or contact me to find out how you can participate http://www.vintage.org From bobstek at ix.netcom.com Sun Oct 31 12:16:07 1999 From: bobstek at ix.netcom.com (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon - them's fightin' words! In-Reply-To: <001d01bf23c1$8fccfee0$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Message-ID: Now just a minute, there! As a founding member (along with John Dvorak when he sold N* software out of his home in his "Software Review" newsletter) of the International NorthStar User's Association (INSUA) I take issue! The NorthStar's "limitations" (so-called) were there because they were one of the pioneers with an early 4 MHz Z-80 powered S-100 box without the switches and blinkin' lights so beloved by members of this group (myself included, as an IMSAI owner w/ N* drives!)- this was prior to CP/M, when 32k was a mammoth amount of memory. With its sleek, brushed aluminum front panel and walnut cabinet it could fit into the office environment of those professionals / pioneers who wanted a micro to do useful office work. N*'s BCD arithmetic gave exact answers even before MBASIC users began to complain about "rounding" errors. And for serious number crunching, add N*'s hardware FP board, and top it off with Allen Ashley's N* BASIC compiler (under N* DOS or CP/M) and you had a very fast system. A 56k CP/M system was considered more than adequate for most programs. What programs in particular couldn't you run? Of course we all wanted a bigger TPA, and there were ways to achieve this. The most elegant, IMHO, was to replace the N* controller with one from Morrow which could handle N*'s native hard-sectored format, as well as soft-sectored 5" and 8" formats. You could also move N*'s boot PROM from E800 to F800 without too much difficulty, and add an 8" controller as well. Curiosity, indeed! Bob Stek bobstek@ix.netcom.com Saver of Lost SOLs (and expanding Horizons!) -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Richard Erlacher Sent: Sunday, October 31, 1999 12:01 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon I am not, nor have I been, trying to get a Horizon, or any other model of N* going. I recently arranged to give away my last bit of N* hardware, a Z80A CPU card. I have had lots of trouble finding people who would take it. The problem, of course, isn't that they don't work, because they do, and very well, too, but rather that the N* environment is so limited, particularly in the Horizon with its 8K ROM space, that many compiled programs won't work because the TPA is too small. What's more, the FDC isn't capable using of CP/M-standard (IBM-3740, SSSD 8") diskettes. They're OK as a curiosity, but back in the lat '70's and early '80's, they were not well received because of the TPA and FDC issues mentioned above, and I warn everyone off them due to their resulting limitations. regards, Dick -----Original Message----- From: JusmeSJ@aol.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, October 30, 1999 10:30 PM Subject: Northstar Horizon >Hi, I ran accross your message in a web search. I have a working and >currently running Northstar Horizon, I have parts like drive controller, i/o, >mamory cards and a few teac drives. I also have alot of documentation on >northstar Horizon & Advantage computers, plus software like N*Basic, N*Cp/m >etc. Are u building one? need help getting it goin let me know. > >Steve Benedict >Redwood City, California From edick at idcomm.com Sun Oct 31 13:00:25 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon - them's fightin' words! Message-ID: <003b01bf23d2$36ed7820$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Well, Parrrrrdonn me! My statements re: N* reflected a locally developed cultural bias developed during the early years of CP/M compilers, which often generated code blocks too large to be used in a N* with its BASIC ROM in place. There were some locally-generated business software packages which, for a time, wouldn't run on N* because of the small TPA. This was later resolved, in that the code was rebuilt with a smaller map. The FDC compatibility problem went away when the SW vendor got a N*. This suggests the N* was, in general, popular enough to warrant such steps. The main issue for me, of course, was the compatibility issue, which, as you've pointed out, could be dealt with by selective paring and pruning. That was not cost-efficient, however, and, since my living and that of my colleagues of the time was dependent on making things work at the lowest possible overall cost, the notion of buying a box and then replacing/augmenting some of its innards was not fiscally palatable. The approach which suited me best at the time was to buy a box, e.g. from Integrand, (Visalia, CA) which unified the drive and system packages, and put whatever the currently "best" board set or assortment in it. That usually meant CCS or SD Systems, at the time. I did, after all, indicate that the N*'s were not readily impeachable on grounds of functional or reliability issues. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bob Stek To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, October 31, 1999 11:17 AM Subject: RE: Northstar Horizon - them's fightin' words! >Now just a minute, there! As a founding member (along with John Dvorak when >he sold N* software out of his home in his "Software Review" newsletter) of >the International NorthStar User's Association (INSUA) I take issue! The >NorthStar's "limitations" (so-called) were there because they were one of >the pioneers with an early 4 MHz Z-80 powered S-100 box without the switches >and blinkin' lights so beloved by members of this group (myself included, as >an IMSAI owner w/ N* drives!)- this was prior to CP/M, when 32k was a >mammoth amount of memory. With its sleek, brushed aluminum front panel and >walnut cabinet it could fit into the office environment of those >professionals / pioneers who wanted a micro to do useful office work. N*'s >BCD arithmetic gave exact answers even before MBASIC users began to complain >about "rounding" errors. And for serious number crunching, add N*'s >hardware FP board, and top it off with Allen Ashley's N* BASIC compiler >(under N* DOS or CP/M) and you had a very fast system. A 56k CP/M system >was considered more than adequate for most programs. What programs in >particular couldn't you run? Of course we all wanted a bigger TPA, and >there were ways to achieve this. The most elegant, IMHO, was to replace the >N* controller with one from Morrow which could handle N*'s native >hard-sectored format, as well as soft-sectored 5" and 8" formats. You could >also move N*'s boot PROM from E800 to F800 without too much difficulty, and >add an 8" controller as well. > >Curiosity, indeed! > >Bob Stek >bobstek@ix.netcom.com >Saver of Lost SOLs (and expanding Horizons!) > >-----Original Message----- >From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu >[mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Richard Erlacher >Sent: Sunday, October 31, 1999 12:01 PM >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon > > >I am not, nor have I been, trying to get a Horizon, or any other model of N* >going. I recently arranged to give away my last bit of N* hardware, a Z80A >CPU card. I have had lots of trouble finding people who would take it. The >problem, of course, isn't that they don't work, because they do, and very >well, too, but rather that the N* environment is so limited, particularly in >the Horizon with its 8K ROM space, that many compiled programs won't work >because the TPA is too small. What's more, the FDC isn't capable using of >CP/M-standard (IBM-3740, SSSD 8") diskettes. > >They're OK as a curiosity, but back in the lat '70's and early '80's, they >were not well received because of the TPA and FDC issues mentioned above, >and I warn everyone off them due to their resulting limitations. > >regards, > >Dick >-----Original Message----- >From: JusmeSJ@aol.com >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Saturday, October 30, 1999 10:30 PM >Subject: Northstar Horizon > > >>Hi, I ran accross your message in a web search. I have a working and >>currently running Northstar Horizon, I have parts like drive controller, >i/o, >>mamory cards and a few teac drives. I also have alot of documentation on >>northstar Horizon & Advantage computers, plus software like N*Basic, N*Cp/m >>etc. Are u building one? need help getting it goin let me know. >> >>Steve Benedict >>Redwood City, California > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Oct 31 14:43:08 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <0.63461238.254d2dd5@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991031144308.4227be06@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi Steve, Well I'm trying to rebuild an Altair but it's ending up with mostly N* parts! So far it has a N* disk controller and it's getting a N* CPU card (when I get it finished.) I have quite a bit of N* application software that I've bought over the 'net. Looks like it's going to be a N* in an Altair's skin! I'll be needing some memory and I/O cards and other stuff after I get the CPU working. I know I need some N* operating system disks. Joe At 01:29 AM 10/31/99 EDT, you wrote: >Hi, I ran accross your message in a web search. I have a working and >currently running Northstar Horizon, I have parts like drive controller, i/o, >mamory cards and a few teac drives. I also have alot of documentation on >northstar Horizon & Advantage computers, plus software like N*Basic, N*Cp/m >etc. Are u building one? need help getting it goin let me know. > >Steve Benedict >Redwood City, California > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Oct 31 14:58:17 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: Jacksonville Hamfest report Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991031145817.41d73a64@mailhost.intellistar.net> Well I just returned from the Jacksonville Florida hamfest. It wasn't as big as I had been told it would be but I managed to score some NICE items. Here's the list of the major items: (1) Kontron Logic Analyzer, 150 Mhz, 64 channels. With a plug in 48 channel pattern generator and all the probes, grabbers, keyboard, etc. I only need a manual for it. Hint, Hint! (2) Radio Shack model 1 computer with an expansion/interface box by "Holmes". I don't know what's in the box but it looks like more memory along with a disk drive interface and printer interface. also two RS disk drives for it. (3) Another Radio Shack Model 1 computer. THIS ONE DOES NOT HAVE THE SEPARATE KEYPAD! (4) A disk drive for a RS color computer. (5) four large bags of data books. (6) A BT-970 computer and printer with disks. The owner is supposed to mail me the manuals. The BT-970 was built by Televideo for Bell Telephone (hence the "BT" nomenclature). It looks like one of the funky 970 termianls. The monitor is mounted in a yoke to the left of the case and it can swivel up and down. The case has two 5 1/4" disk drives. Both are mounted vertically, one above the other. It does run MS-DOS. I've never heard of one before, does anyone know any more about them? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Oct 31 13:08:29 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: EPROM issues, who can burn? In-Reply-To: References: <000c01bf239f$2bb1ad60$213cc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> from "Olminkhof" at Oct 31, 99 11:55:11 pm Message-ID: Something has been rattling around my head and I have the urge to get it onto the ether (sorry I know it hasn't been a week yet, but the time did change). Somebody needs to set up an archival site for EPROM images, and we need to come up with a regular/practical method of getting data burnt into a chip for anybody that needs it. I think a good storage transmittal format is MIME, text in the message with all the details of what it is, name in the subject, and whatever common EPROM file format as the attached file, or you know the funny looking block of text. More thinking, we need to keep the site private, or upload only, with download permission only to selected individuals (who I would hope would keep a mirror of the site in case the main site had a problem). The value of perserving this data is obvious, so pardon me if its already been done, but if it hasn't lets cook it up and get it going. From jpl15 at netcom.com Sun Oct 31 13:27:57 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: EPROM issues, who can burn? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We had quite a thead going on this issue some months back; I believe Bruce Lane is putting effort toward this front, as are several others with the hardware and know-how. It **is** a Good Idea, IMHO, since we all know PROMS die eventually, not to mention the restoration of systems whic might be missing these devices. Cheers John From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Oct 31 13:48:07 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon Message-ID: <199910311948.OAA28700@world.std.com> Message-ID: Well, this is one way to get a thread going! Anyone else out there with comments about the Horizon? Where are you, Allison? Bob -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Richard Erlacher Sent: Sunday, October 31, 1999 2:00 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon - them's fightin' words! Well, Parrrrrdonn me! My statements re: N* reflected a locally developed cultural bias developed during the early years of CP/M compilers, which often generated code blocks too large to be used in a N* with its BASIC ROM in place. There were some locally-generated business software packages which, for a time, wouldn't run on N* because of the small TPA. This was later resolved, in that the code was rebuilt with a smaller map. The FDC compatibility problem went away when the SW vendor got a N*. This suggests the N* was, in general, popular enough to warrant such steps. The main issue for me, of course, was the compatibility issue, which, as you've pointed out, could be dealt with by selective paring and pruning. That was not cost-efficient, however, and, since my living and that of my colleagues of the time was dependent on making things work at the lowest possible overall cost, the notion of buying a box and then replacing/augmenting some of its innards was not fiscally palatable. The approach which suited me best at the time was to buy a box, e.g. from Integrand, (Visalia, CA) which unified the drive and system packages, and put whatever the currently "best" board set or assortment in it. That usually meant CCS or SD Systems, at the time. I did, after all, indicate that the N*'s were not readily impeachable on grounds of functional or reliability issues. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bob Stek To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, October 31, 1999 11:17 AM Subject: RE: Northstar Horizon - them's fightin' words! >Now just a minute, there! As a founding member (along with John Dvorak when >he sold N* software out of his home in his "Software Review" newsletter) of >the International NorthStar User's Association (INSUA) I take issue! The >NorthStar's "limitations" (so-called) were there because they were one of >the pioneers with an early 4 MHz Z-80 powered S-100 box without the switches >and blinkin' lights so beloved by members of this group (myself included, as >an IMSAI owner w/ N* drives!)- this was prior to CP/M, when 32k was a >mammoth amount of memory. With its sleek, brushed aluminum front panel and >walnut cabinet it could fit into the office environment of those >professionals / pioneers who wanted a micro to do useful office work. N*'s >BCD arithmetic gave exact answers even before MBASIC users began to complain >about "rounding" errors. And for serious number crunching, add N*'s >hardware FP board, and top it off with Allen Ashley's N* BASIC compiler >(under N* DOS or CP/M) and you had a very fast system. A 56k CP/M system >was considered more than adequate for most programs. What programs in >particular couldn't you run? Of course we all wanted a bigger TPA, and >there were ways to achieve this. The most elegant, IMHO, was to replace the >N* controller with one from Morrow which could handle N*'s native >hard-sectored format, as well as soft-sectored 5" and 8" formats. You could >also move N*'s boot PROM from E800 to F800 without too much difficulty, and >add an 8" controller as well. > >Curiosity, indeed! > >Bob Stek >bobstek@ix.netcom.com >Saver of Lost SOLs (and expanding Horizons!) > >-----Original Message----- >From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu >[mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Richard Erlacher >Sent: Sunday, October 31, 1999 12:01 PM >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon > > >I am not, nor have I been, trying to get a Horizon, or any other model of N* >going. I recently arranged to give away my last bit of N* hardware, a Z80A >CPU card. I have had lots of trouble finding people who would take it. The >problem, of course, isn't that they don't work, because they do, and very >well, too, but rather that the N* environment is so limited, particularly in >the Horizon with its 8K ROM space, that many compiled programs won't work >because the TPA is too small. What's more, the FDC isn't capable using of >CP/M-standard (IBM-3740, SSSD 8") diskettes. > >They're OK as a curiosity, but back in the lat '70's and early '80's, they >were not well received because of the TPA and FDC issues mentioned above, >and I warn everyone off them due to their resulting limitations. > >regards, > >Dick >-----Original Message----- >From: JusmeSJ@aol.com >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Saturday, October 30, 1999 10:30 PM >Subject: Northstar Horizon > > >>Hi, I ran accross your message in a web search. I have a working and >>currently running Northstar Horizon, I have parts like drive controller, >i/o, >>mamory cards and a few teac drives. I also have alot of documentation on >>northstar Horizon & Advantage computers, plus software like N*Basic, N*Cp/m >>etc. Are u building one? need help getting it goin let me know. >> >>Steve Benedict >>Redwood City, California > From jpl15 at netcom.com Sun Oct 31 13:58:48 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: TRW Report. Message-ID: Well, as Marvin and Mike have said, it was pretty good day at TRW, tho really hot, like summer... I was not expecting to be working up such a sweat on Halloween. East-coast folks: nyaaah nyaaahh!!! ;} It seems it was 'freebie' day yesterday... my most striking gift was a large box of 3/4" U-matic video tapes (13 of them) put out by Digital, titled 'The VAX-11 Instruction Set' They are of course a a video tutorial on that subject. I popped the first one into the player last night and it put me straight to sleep... they are the typical mid-80s hideously boring industrial instruction format.. the graphics of a school film and voice-over by some un-inflected perfect-diction guy who pronounces mnemonic as 'newmunik'... but it is still a cool find. I think when DVD software gets a little cheaper it would be a good candidate for archival on that format. TO clarify Mike Ford's previous post... the DEC item in question was a PDT-11 (not PDP) with two other raw Shugart 8" drives. There were several other old PCs and some removable HD docking chassis, but I did rescue the PDT and now it lives here. Thanks Mike!! Another listmember delivered several boxes of Good Stuff to me, of interest to The List would be 2 VT-240s, a Wyse terminal, and a box of 5 1/4" floppies full of vintage PC software.. which I *think* Marvin stole from the back of my truck... better him than me. Mike sold me a rack-mount Pentium 133 machine which I plan to use as networking box to talk between my PDP-11s and uVAXs and the more modern world... oh goodie... another Project. Marvin, Mike Ford, Dave Dameron, Aaron Finney [+ three Child Processes he has spawned], and Elliot all came to visit.. several of us then went to Brunch, tho Mike and Dave got lost and Aaron was otherwise occupied [ ;) ] so Marvin and I just talked trash about you guys over chow. Some non-classiccmp friends of mine were there also, as I was sharing one of my spaces with our local Ham repeater group, so they could sell some jun^H^H^H^H 'Merchandise' and raise money for upgrades, which they did. All-in-all a very fun time in SoCal. --------------------------------------------- Questions for the List: Anyone ever use these instruction videos? I'm interested in your opinions if you remember the tapes at all. I recall a thread or two revolving around the PDT-11... before I go slogging back thru the archives.. can someone give me a capsule description of the PDT-11 and where it fit in the DEC scheme of things? Cheers John From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Oct 31 14:29:08 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: EPROM issues, who can burn? Message-ID: <991031152908.276001be@trailing-edge.com> >Somebody needs to set up an archival site for EPROM images, and we need to >come up with a regular/practical method of getting data burnt into a chip >for anybody that needs it. A few thoughts: 1. Really, really old devices aren't well supported on even the best modern programmers. (The obvious example of this is the Intel 1702A.) In many cases you have to go back to "classic" programmers to get these programmed. 2. Some devices (particularly PALs) with the security fuse blown *can* be reverse engineered through either detective work or brute force. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Oct 31 14:38:19 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon Message-ID: <199910312038.PAA17530@world.std.com> < Well I'm trying to rebuild an Altair but it's ending up with mostly N* Message-ID: On Sun, 31 Oct 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > I'd always assumed (without much evidence) that electrically it was > pretty similar to the PC ISA bus. Of course BIOS extension ROMs on I/O > cards aren't going to work (different CPU for one thing). > > I know that some cards will work in both the Apollo and normal PCs.. Tony, you've hit the nail on the head. The Apollo ISA bus is a real ISA bus. However, most ISA cards will not work in the machine for one of a number of reasons: - The Apollo cannot use any BIOS extension ROMs due to it not having the PC BIOS to extend, and because it's architecturally completely dissimilar to a PC (Motorola 68k CPU being byte-backward from x86). - There is no OS support. DOMAIN/OS has a very limited view of the world with respect to hardware device drivers. Theoretically it would be possible to make any arbitrary ISA card work in an Apollo if one were to write his own device drivers and software to use that driver. This driver would have to use no calls at all to the BIOS extension ROM, which as I understand can be tricky to work around as even if you get programming information from the manufacturer for the card, it will often not tell you where, for example, the hardware registers live beyond those presented by the onboard BIOS. Anyway. Oh, yes, and the WD7000/ASE found in Apollo workstations (only supported in a few late models) is a "Three-way peripheral controller" bearing only slight resemblance to the Intel PC product, the WD7000/FASST SCSI controller. The /ASE has floppy, ESDI, and SCSI interfaces. Don't expect to be able to boot the Apollo from a SCSI disk, or even to use one at all unless you are running DOMAIN/OS at 10.3.5 or later. The SCSI interface seems only to be well-supported for tape devices (two in particular, an Archive 60 MB QIC unit, and the Exabyte 8200). ok r. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 31 16:01:43 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: EPROM issues, who can burn? In-Reply-To: <991031152908.276001be@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Oct 31, 99 03:29:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 298 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991031/78a86b9d/attachment.ksh From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Oct 31 17:01:06 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: EPROM issues, who can burn? In-Reply-To: References: <000c01bf239f$2bb1ad60$213cc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991031150106.0095e990@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 12:08 31-10-1999 -0700, you wrote: >Something has been rattling around my head and I have the urge to get it >onto the ether (sorry I know it hasn't been a week yet, but the time did >change). > >Somebody needs to set up an archival site for EPROM images, and we need to >come up with a regular/practical method of getting data burnt into a chip >for anybody that needs it. Great minds think alike. I'm in the process of doing EXACTLY this. The kicker is twofold: 1). USWorst, or some other carrier, needs to make DSL service available in my area so I can put my domain on the air. 2). I'm concerned about copyright violation, even on the older stuff. The one thing I absolutely cannot deal with is a lawsuit! >More thinking, we need to keep the site private, or upload only, with >download permission only to selected individuals (who I would hope would >keep a mirror of the site in case the main site had a problem). Ahhhhh... now THAT might get me around the copyright issues! Set it up such that only the folks who own equipment that can use the images can get to it... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Oct 31 17:04:13 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: EPROM issues, who can burn? In-Reply-To: <991031152908.276001be@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19991031150413.00961210@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 15:29 31-10-1999 -0500, Tim Shoppa declaimed... >1. Really, really old devices aren't well supported on even the best >modern programmers. (The obvious example of this is the Intel 1702A.) >In many cases you have to go back to "classic" programmers to get these >programmed. Absolutely right. My UniSite, as slick as it is, doesn't go back any farther than 2708's for EPROMs, and the Signetics/Philips 82Sxxx series for bipolars. >2. Some devices (particularly PALs) with the security fuse blown *can* be >reverse engineered through either detective work or brute force. Functional vs. exact replacement. Yep, I've done that. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Oct 31 17:07:15 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: EPROM issues, who can burn? Message-ID: <0.bb89e033.254e25a3@aol.com> In a message dated 10/31/99 6:00:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com writes: > At 12:08 31-10-1999 -0700, you wrote: > > >Something has been rattling around my head and I have the urge to get it > >onto the ether (sorry I know it hasn't been a week yet, but the time did > >change). > > > >Somebody needs to set up an archival site for EPROM images, and we need to > >come up with a regular/practical method of getting data burnt into a chip > >for anybody that needs it. > > > > Great minds think alike. I'm in the process of doing EXACTLY this. The > kicker is twofold: > > 1). USWorst, or some other carrier, needs to make DSL service available in > my area so I can put my domain on the air. > > 2). I'm concerned about copyright violation, even on the older stuff. The > one thing I absolutely cannot deal with is a lawsuit! > > >More thinking, we need to keep the site private, or upload only, with > >download permission only to selected individuals (who I would hope would > >keep a mirror of the site in case the main site had a problem). > > Ahhhhh... now THAT might get me around the copyright issues! Set it up > such that only the folks who own equipment that can use the images can get > to it... Have it the same way as they do the MAME ROM images; just have it on a publicly accessable site, but just have a disclaimer that says for 'archival' purposes only. everyone pretty much understands what the deal is. ;-> DB Young Team OS/2 --> this message printed on recycled disk space view the computers of yesteryear at http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm (now accepting donations!) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 31 16:34:51 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: My new toys: Apollo and Osborne 1 In-Reply-To: from "r. 'bear' stricklin" at Oct 31, 99 04:52:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2151 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991031/e510a5c5/attachment.ksh From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun Oct 31 17:33:33 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: TRW Report. In-Reply-To: from John Lawson at "Oct 31, 1999 11:58:48 am" Message-ID: <199910312334.SAA31549@pechter.dyndns.org> > TO clarify Mike Ford's previous post... the DEC item in question > was a PDT-11 (not PDP) with two other raw Shugart 8" drives. There > were several other old PCs and some removable HD docking chassis, > but I did rescue the PDT and now it lives here. Thanks Mike!! Good find... I loved mine. > > Questions for the List: > > I recall a thread or two revolving around the PDT-11... before I > go slogging back thru the archives.. can someone give me a capsule > description of the PDT-11 and where it fit in the DEC scheme of things? > > > Cheers > > John The PDT was a kind of orphan child. It wasn't Qbus or Unibus -- it was NO BUS. It was a nice bounded system (an 11/03 LSI CPU with up to 64k of memory and it supported only either: 1. DECtapeII (the PDT11/130) or 2. 8 inch RX01-almost compatible floppies (the PDT11/150) or 3. Neither (the PDT 11/110) It supported one Sync/Async modem port and up to 4 DL11-like ports (with software settable baud rates) and one Serial Printer port . The ports ran (if I remember correctly) up to 9600 baud, but they would drop bits if multiples were run at high speed at the same time. The disks were accessed via 8085 controlled software which controlled the disks with special PD drivers and special PD bootblocks... They didn't boot standard RX01 os distributions, so there was one RX01 that shipped with RT that was PDT bootable for the 11/150's. The OS was either RT11 v4 (or later) or you rolled your own or downloaded an application to run stand alone over the serial link. The peripherals were never expandable, although a couple of engineers supposedly tried hacking a hard disk interface off the stacking connector in the 11/150. (An IDE interface would be slick if someone could do it). I had the MiniMinc version which had the EIS/FIS microms making it a pretty slick 11/03-ish box. I genned up multiterminal RT11 and ran the console on an LA34, a modem and PC with a comm program running on one port and a VT100 running RTMON on another. Multiuser basic was quite slick. I wish I still had the software and the machine. This is just a quick summary -- any other questions? Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Oct 31 16:30:20 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: TRW Report. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > It seems it was 'freebie' day yesterday... my most striking gift >was a large box of 3/4" U-matic video tapes (13 of them) put out by >Digital, titled 'The VAX-11 Instruction Set' They are of course a >a video tutorial on that subject. I popped the first one into the >player last night and it put me straight to sleep... they are the >typical mid-80s hideously boring industrial instruction format.. >the graphics of a school film and voice-over by some un-inflected >perfect-diction guy who pronounces mnemonic as 'newmunik'... but it >is still a cool find. I think when DVD software gets a little >cheaper it would be a good candidate for archival on that format. DVD is a great "moderate" quality format that allows wide screen display etc., but I think existing cheap/free MPEG compression and storage on a CDR would work fine. Posting the results on alt.sleep.disorders possibly quite profitable. Does the umatic tape have any archival issues that are of concern already? The cost issue with DVD I think will remain for some time with the media, unless all of the vendors insist on a blood bath of price cutting like they did with CDR. From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sun Oct 31 17:40:06 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: TRW Report. In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Oct 31, 1999 02:30:20 PM Message-ID: <199910312340.QAA10746@calico.litterbox.com> > > > It seems it was 'freebie' day yesterday... my most striking gift > >was a large box of 3/4" U-matic video tapes (13 of them) put out by > >Digital, titled 'The VAX-11 Instruction Set' They are of course a > >a video tutorial on that subject. I popped the first one into the > >player last night and it put me straight to sleep... they are the > >typical mid-80s hideously boring industrial instruction format.. > >the graphics of a school film and voice-over by some un-inflected > >perfect-diction guy who pronounces mnemonic as 'newmunik'... but it > >is still a cool find. I think when DVD software gets a little > >cheaper it would be a good candidate for archival on that format. > > DVD is a great "moderate" quality format that allows wide screen display > etc., but I think existing cheap/free MPEG compression and storage on a CDR > would work fine. Posting the results on alt.sleep.disorders possibly quite > profitable. Does the umatic tape have any archival issues that are of > concern already? > > The cost issue with DVD I think will remain for some time with the media, > unless all of the vendors insist on a blood bath of price cutting like they > did with CDR. Seems to me Video CD would be a whole lot easier, and quite possibly cheaper even counting media costs. Most DVD players can handle VCDs too. (well, mine does, anyway). -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From donm at cts.com Sun Oct 31 18:14:17 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: EPROM issues, who can burn? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991031150106.0095e990@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 31 Oct 1999, Bruce Lane wrote: > At 12:08 31-10-1999 -0700, you wrote: > > >Something has been rattling around my head and I have the urge to get it > >onto the ether (sorry I know it hasn't been a week yet, but the time did > >change). > > > >Somebody needs to set up an archival site for EPROM images, and we need to > >come up with a regular/practical method of getting data burnt into a chip > >for anybody that needs it. > > > > Great minds think alike. I'm in the process of doing EXACTLY this. The > kicker is twofold: > > 1). USWorst, or some other carrier, needs to make DSL service available in > my area so I can put my domain on the air. > > 2). I'm concerned about copyright violation, even on the older stuff. The > one thing I absolutely cannot deal with is a lawsuit! > > >More thinking, we need to keep the site private, or upload only, with > >download permission only to selected individuals (who I would hope would > >keep a mirror of the site in case the main site had a problem). > > Ahhhhh... now THAT might get me around the copyright issues! Set it up > such that only the folks who own equipment that can use the images can get > to it... Well, certainly those folks would be entitled to a copy of what they have already, and it shouldn't be of much value to others. - don > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies > http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com > Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 > "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our > own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." > From rhudson at ix.netcom.com Sun Oct 31 18:30:06 1999 From: rhudson at ix.netcom.com (rhudson@ix.netcom.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: Apple ][ + but no Floppies Message-ID: <19991031162221141@ix.netcom.com> Can anyone help me out I have a working apple ][ plus but no floppies with DOS or Prodos on them. Also no serial port on the machine. Whats to do? Ron rhudson@ix.netcom.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Oct 31 18:34:21 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: EPROM issues, who can burn? In-Reply-To: References: from "Don Maslin" at Oct 31, 99 04:14:17 pm Message-ID: >> > Ahhhhh... now THAT might get me around the copyright issues! Set it up >> > such that only the folks who own equipment that can use the images can get >> > to it... >> >> Well, certainly those folks would be entitled to a copy of what they >> have already, and it shouldn't be of much value to others. > >The time when that's not strictly true is when machines came with >optional EPROMs... It's also not the case with different versions of those EPROMs. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Oct 31 18:06:28 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: correction: logic analyzer was: Jacksonville Hamfest report In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19991031145817.41d73a64@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19991031180628.3d0781e0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Correction, The logic analyzer that I picked up was a Dolch brand. It's a Colt 300 model. I think it was made in Germany. It's big and it's heavy! I should have mentioned that it has a CRT, two disks drives and an external keyboard and runs MPM, so I guess it's qualified for discussion on this list! Joe At 02:58 PM 10/31/99, you wrote: >Well I just returned from the Jacksonville Florida hamfest. It wasn't as >big as I had been told it would be but I managed to score some NICE items. >Here's the list of the major items: > >(1) Kontron Logic Analyzer, 150 Mhz, 64 channels. With a plug in 48 channel >pattern generator and all the probes, grabbers, keyboard, etc. I only >need a manual for it. Hint, Hint! > >(2) Radio Shack model 1 computer with an expansion/interface box by >"Holmes". I don't know what's in the box but it looks like more memory >along with a disk drive interface and printer interface. also two RS disk >drives for it. > >(3) Another Radio Shack Model 1 computer. THIS ONE DOES NOT HAVE THE >SEPARATE KEYPAD! > >(4) A disk drive for a RS color computer. > >(5) four large bags of data books. > >(6) A BT-970 computer and printer with disks. The owner is supposed to >mail me the manuals. The BT-970 was built by Televideo for Bell Telephone >(hence the "BT" nomenclature). It looks like one of the funky 970 >termianls. The monitor is mounted in a yoke to the left of the case and it >can swivel up and down. The case has two 5 1/4" disk drives. Both are >mounted vertically, one above the other. It does run MS-DOS. I've never >heard of one before, does anyone know any more about them? > > > > From jpero at cgocable.net Sun Oct 31 15:18:43 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: Decserver 200/mc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199911010218.VAA22783@admin.cgocable.net> paging: Aaron Christopher Finney Please contact me referring about dud ast dual cpu motherboard. Thanks 1. Bad email address on yours. 2. no reply ever since when I contacted you when I was in USA. Wizard (Jason) From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Oct 31 20:19:04 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: EPROM issues, who can burn? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991031150106.0095e990@mail.bluefeathertech.com> References: Message-ID: >one thing I absolutely cannot deal with is a lawsuit! > >>More thinking, we need to keep the site private, or upload only, with >>download permission only to selected individuals (who I would hope would >>keep a mirror of the site in case the main site had a problem). > > Ahhhhh... now THAT might get me around the copyright issues! Set it up >such that only the folks who own equipment that can use the images can get >to it... Absolutely, in fact I would set it up with a cell type security. One site that is made public for uploads only, then two or three sites that mirror the inspected main site and grant access to a limited set of people. For a one time burn the files are small enough to be emailed from the secondary sites without granting access. That way if a secondary site gets busted, they can shut down hopefully without effecting the primary site. > >Have it the same way as they do the MAME ROM images; just have it on a >publicly accessable site, but just have a disclaimer that says for 'archival' >purposes only. everyone pretty much understands what the deal is. ;-> > Perfect, a working model we can copy, and if the MAME guys get away with it, we would be entirely safe. System roms are one of the handiest to include, so that things like a Apple II can have any rev we choose in them instead of what we find. I have video cards that become worthless past a certain OS release with a rom upgrade and the company is offering no practical support (ala Radius and Radius vintage). ............................. I don't know about other people, but I see a LOT of boards going into the scrap stream with eproms on them, and if we can get something organized I would start picking them off and filling bags or tubes with them. ............................. Heresy beyond heresy I would actually like to see people with eprom burners be able to make a few bucks by burning the eproms. I think it would make a DANDY little web business. Now obviously the database and the burning businesses need to be completely separate, people would be all over us if we "sold" burnt eproms, but what would be wrong with burning customer supplied data and printing a label with supplied text? From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Oct 31 20:25:10 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: EPROM issues, who can burn? Message-ID: <0.3a10c0b8.254e5406@aol.com> In a message dated 10/31/99 9:19:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, mikeford@socal.rr.com writes: > > Heresy beyond heresy I would actually like to see people with eprom burners > be able to make a few bucks by burning the eproms. I think it would make a > DANDY little web business. Now obviously the database and the burning > businesses need to be completely separate, people would be all over us if > we "sold" burnt eproms, but what would be wrong with burning customer > supplied data and printing a label with supplied text? i could burn/read eproms with my BAL500 card that's in my apple ][+ if someone can tell me how to use it... DB Young Team OS/2 --> this message printed on recycled disk space view the computers of yesteryear at http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm (now accepting donations!) From edick at idcomm.com Sun Oct 31 20:34:27 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: Apple ][ + but no Floppies Message-ID: <001701bf2411$a0779a20$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> The easiest thing would be to get a serial card, right? I've got a box of Apple-][ stuff, prom programmers, serial boards, video cards, Z-80 boards, memory cards, FDC's of various sorts, and a wire-wrap card. So long as I have the ww-card, there's a chance of extracting useful work from it someday. If I find a duplicate DOS diskette or something, I could let you have it. Remind me in a couple of days, please, and I'll let you know what I've found. Unfortunately, I only saved one FDD, so I can't produce duplicates. Dick -----Original Message----- From: rhudson@ix.netcom.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, October 31, 1999 5:30 PM Subject: Apple ][ + but no Floppies >Can anyone help me out I have a working apple ][ plus but no floppies with DOS or Prodos on them. >Also no serial port on the machine. > >Whats to do? > >Ron > >rhudson@ix.netcom.com > From jpero at cgocable.net Sun Oct 31 15:37:11 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: Paging: Aaron Christopher Finney In-Reply-To: <199911010218.VAA22783@admin.cgocable.net> References: Message-ID: <199911010237.VAA04949@admin.cgocable.net> Sorry if that is double email I forgot to edit the subject line. paging: Aaron Christopher Finney Please contact me referring about dud ast dual cpu motherboard. Thanks 1. Bad email address on yours. 2. no reply ever since when I contacted you when I was in USA. Wizard (Jason) From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Oct 31 20:35:52 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: Apple ][ + but no Floppies In-Reply-To: <19991031162221141@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: >Can anyone help me out I have a working apple ][ plus but no floppies with >DOS or Prodos on them. >Also no serial port on the machine. > >Whats to do? There may be easier ways, but what works is to beg in many locations until you find a person local enough to let you borrow a copy. I snooped the local goodwill store and found some, ditto yardsales, and any decent hamfest will have some. Most likely a generous soul will step forward and offer a set for postage. I hope to one day have all my stuff set up so that i could easily answer just such a request myself. OTOH you know a lot of the old software doesn't need another floppy with DOS etc. on it to run. You boot from the "game" disc and its all on that disc. The system discs are for utilities, formatting new floppies, etc. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Oct 31 20:41:39 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: EPROM issues, who can burn? In-Reply-To: References: from "Don Maslin" Message-ID: >>The time when that's not strictly true is when machines came with >>optional EPROMs... > >It's also not the case with different versions of those EPROMs. Exactly the flame that burns in my black heart, all of the neat roms for my HX20, Rev C eproms for my video card, ROM 3 roms for my IIgs, etc. Three parallel efforts, preserve the data, locate and preserve the parts, and making any part a persons heart (black or otherwise) wants available at a reasonable price. From edick at idcomm.com Sun Oct 31 20:44:05 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: EPROM issues, who can burn? Message-ID: <002201bf2412$f72b8920$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> The reality of this quandary is that the answer lies not in the legality of copying the EPROMs, but in the likelihood of getting caught. Now, an EPROM burner for 2716's is DIRT SIMPLE to make, and the same goes for most of the 28-pin parts, and I might guess it's true of the 32-pin parts as well. The 1702's, 2708's, and others of that ilk (mainly due to the multiple power supplies) might cause minor problems. Those however, can be dealt with in a number of creative ways. 1) if the goal is to have an "authentic" system, one has to have the authentic EPROMs with the binary images in them. The spec's for programming pre-32-pin eproms were not kept secret. 2) if the goal is simply to have a working system, there are several ways to get around the ancient EPROM oddities. All of these involve wiring and maybe even soldering something. The easiest of them, however, is to build an adapter board with the binary images residing in battery backed rams intended for substitution for EPROMs, and a simple programmer for them for those situations when things go wrong. 3) Now comes the hard part . . . You have to choose. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, October 31, 1999 5:28 PM Subject: Re: EPROM issues, who can burn? >> > Ahhhhh... now THAT might get me around the copyright issues! Set it up >> > such that only the folks who own equipment that can use the images can get >> > to it... >> >> Well, certainly those folks would be entitled to a copy of what they >> have already, and it shouldn't be of much value to others. > >The time when that's not strictly true is when machines came with >optional EPROMs... > >The classic case is the BBC micro. It has 4 (IIRC) 'sideways ROM >sockets', one of which is normally filled by the BASIC ROM, and there are >add-on cards to provide more such sockets. > >Various companies (Acorn and others) sold software (disk filing systems >-- like DOSes, languages, applications, etc) in EPROMs to go into these >sockets. And while all BBC owners will have had the Acorn MOS (Machine >Operating System) ROM and BBC BASIC, the same is certainly not true of >all this other software. > >Practically, I suspect that a lot of this software is of little >commercial value today, but it is still copyrighted, and can't be just >stuck on a web site. > >-tony > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Oct 31 20:53:04 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon Message-ID: <003b01bf2414$387e2440$0400c0a8@WINSRVR.EA_HOME.COM> Well . . . here we go . . . the fact that N* memory mapped their FDC was one thing that clearly would fall in the MISTAKE category. What the reason for the existence of the smaller TPA resulting from memory mapping anything is of no relevance. It was a justification for SOME of us, me included, to draw a line through their products whenever they appeared in a list. Of course their price would have been another. Nevertheless, I ALWAYS noticed their ads in BYTE or KILLABROAD. They looked nice . . . kind-of like an ALTAIR or IMSAI, but without those annoying switches. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, October 31, 1999 12:50 PM Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon > > >There is only 2k of ram space (e800h to efffh) the upper 4k is usable. >This space is carved out by the memory mapped disk controller not the cpu >any other component. > > >Typical TPA using a NS is 56k, though if you put the bios in the top 4k that >58k. > >ALL if that is ONLY if the NS* controller is used as the rest of the system >is not biased in any way by eprom/rom maps. > > >They were popular and widely used, thats why they are common. The greatest >featur of them at that time was they worked more so than most of the other >s100 gear. No if you want MMU equiped CPU and DMA controllers there were >few if any of those before the early 80s and the NS* is a 1977 machine. > >I have two, one running a MDS-A single density controller in the >configuration you'd find on in back in 1977 save for I have 3 half height >floppies where the 2 full height ones are and a half height (st225) hard >disk using a teltek controller on with a 52k tpa (the hard disk driver >eats 2k) and the second has a softsector controller of my design that is >62k tpa, the z80 is been modified (different crystal) for 8mhz and supports >a hard disk (also teltek controller). I consider them fine 4mhz z80 CPM >systems and they run everything. NS* dos is also ok and the hard sectored >(real NS* controller) runs UCSD Pascal P system as well (I have the original >NS* build I bought in 1978). > >As a collectors sytem or very exciting Z80 system these are not it. They >were too common for collectable and are only classic. As a really fancy >no holds z80 system again they were vanilla. They did get purchased in >gobs around '78-80 as business turnkey boxes as they were known to work and >most of the bad press they got was the shugat SA400 floppies (not rugged >drive!) and the 16K NS* ram was not so good (plenty of other ram cards >were substituted very successfully). > >You want a hot (s100) z80 system? Look at CCS, Compupro, Morrow, Vector >or one few get to see a full front pannel Ithica Intersystems. > >You want fast... Teltek or SDS single board s100, these were Z80 4/6/8mhz, >2 serial, parallel printer and FDC plus 128k ram on one card. > >The one system turned 21 this year! The other was a 1980 build. > >Rather than get into the S100 vs XXX bus... S100 was a really badly >designed bus (fell in to it would be the most kind) but it worked if >understood it's quirks. At early 80s the issue was cost and software >not the bus used anyway. > > >Allison > > From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Oct 31 20:55:05 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: TRW Report. Message-ID: <199911010255.VAA17289@world.std.com> The only way I know to deal with it is to read and then forward the "archive" files to the owner or person that sent me the EPROM. I have a LABTOOL 48 here if anyone wants something read - and not just EPROM's. I have not purchased any adapters yet however. The data for what it will read is at http://209.24.23.113/products/alldevices.htm What they do with their archive is their business. If they want to forward back to me an image they want burned I can't keep track of all the different image files.:) Definately save all the EPROM's you come across for the above reasons. I never used to and now I regret it. I am having to scrounge all the time when I need one. >one thing I absolutely cannot deal with is a lawsuit! > Me either. Dan From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Oct 31 21:48:46 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:16 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizon Message-ID: <199911010348.WAA11023@world.std.com> There certainly were a few vendors whose systems were as much off-center as the N*. Just take a look at Vector Graphics' systems, for example. I once owned a couple of those, with their memory-mapped video refresh memory. They were another box which didn't have enough TPA to run the output generated from, say, the MT+ Pascal compiler in a unit with a contiguous 64k RAM. As I wrote before, the problems went away with the later releases of various compilers, but while prejudices are easy to acquire, they're difficult to eliminate. N* had their own version of a DOS, IIRC, and perhaps that's what made their management believe they didn't need to offer an efficient and CP/M-compatible product. Myself, I could never recommend a system which didn't read/write the standard distribution media for is native OS. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, October 31, 1999 8:51 PM Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon > >the TPA bit was something I could care less about. The memory mapped >design was functional, not pretty. Of course the first controller I'd >built was IOmapped not for more space but because it was easier to decode >8bits rather than 16. Was it the right way for them, not really but it >worked. there were plenty of other memory mapped designs that were not >nearly as nice. It's the way it was right or wrong. So happens I have >two and one replaced my altair. It was a damm sight better and reliable >depite two lightiing hits. The only design fault I sought to fix was >the lack of storage denisty, 80k per drive was far from enough. The later >controller and software was an improvement but hard sector was a problem >as it was not even remotely portable. The processor card and the IO on >the backplane was however very nicely done. Like many I used third party >ram mostly because I'd alreay had 32k of SEALS 8k static from the altair. >I still do not ahve NS* ram for the odler box, I'd put in a Compupro >Ram-16 back in '84 to get rid of the six 8k static and a 16k static. >Such is the evolution of just one system. > > >It was their price that made them attractive. Least on the east coast. >Some systems like CCS I'd never seen until a few years ago. Others were >a bit rich price wise or questionable vendors. > >Allison > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 31 18:27:07 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:47:17 2005 Subject: EPROM issues, who can burn? In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Oct 31, 99 04:14:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1063 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19991101/8638004f/attachment.ksh